# What do you do when they don't want to eat their dinner?



## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

This is totally hypothetical as my baby is only 11 months, but DH and I watched that show Nanny 911 tonight and the family in it's kids didnt want to eat their dinner, but they never showed how they thought you should deal with that.
Like if you made stirfry for dinner and they scream and want mac and cheese, do you make them mac and cheese? Tell them it's stirfry or nothing? Or some other thing Im not thinking of. I remember as a little one my mom saying "eat 4 pieces of brocolli and you're done" and my dad saying I should eat all of my brocolli.
Talk to me..


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Well my guy is only 23 months, and there is only one of him, so maybe I'm not the best to say. We have a bunch of foods that we know he likes to eat, and they are ready to go. If he doesn't like dinner (and he doesn't talk much, so it's not so easy to know why he isn't eating) we give him some of those. I guess when he gets older I'll make sure to have some bread or something else that he can get himself.

Usually he does like what we eat, and if he isn't eating then he's not hungry.

I also don't make a big deal about whether he plays with his food. I know that eventually i will have to be the enforcer of manners. For now, I think we can deal with him messing around in his high chair, checking to see whether he can transfer food from one container to another, etc. But he's little. He gets excited sometimes just to eat the same thing from my plate as what's on his plate!

I figure at some point he will develop enough language to say why he isn't eating and I will be able to respond better to that. For example, "I don't like this food" or "I'm not hungry" or "my tummy hurts right now." I'm also involving him in food preparation even now, and I guess that will help. You know, at least he'll be able to say "Yuck, broccoli" while we are chopping it instead of once it's on the table?


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

If my dd doesn't want to eat her dinner, she doesn't have to eat her dinner.

If I make her something and she doesn't want it, I offer her an easy alternative (sandwich, yogurt, etc.) and she can have it.

I am blessed - my dd is extremely easy about eating. When she doesn't want to eat something, I take it seriously and offer her an alternative. I wouldn't cook her a separate meal but I don't have a problem offering her an alternative.

Oh, and I never urge her to eat one more bite. How does anyone determine when someone else is full?


----------



## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

I hate it but I bribe dd if it gets to that. Sometimes she will consent to feed the Harry Potter characters who she happens to store in her belly button, but if they aren't hungry I will sometimes hold out the sugar carrot.

I hate doing it, I hate feeling so anxious when she doesn't eat. I can't belive my reaction, I _know_ she isn't going to starve if she doesn't finish her food but I also know she's going to want to be nursing throughout the night and once I wake up in the night these days, I just never fall back to sleep. I also know that inevitably after everyone else is done, the kitchen is clean and everything put away she will say she's starving, and that drives me bonkers.

Dh thinks I'm setting her up for an eating disorder but I think the same of him since he takes her food if she doesn't eat it fast enough (as fast as he eats in other words) and I remember my dad doing that and hating it. Okay, sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread, I look forward to other answers too.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

If I know ahead of time that I am making something one of them does not like, then I prepare something on the side for the person who doesn't like the main dish. I do this for DH too.

If I prepare something that I was under the impression everyone was cool with, and then someone decides at the last minute that they are no longer cool with it, then I encourage them to take one bite to make sure, and then they can go fix a bagel or a bowl of cereal. But they have to fix it themselves.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I would never force a child to eat something they didn't want to nor would I let my child go hungry. Food is about nutrition, not power, not love, not reward.

What works for us is to make sure we have on hand a food that we know she likes so if the dinner isn't satisfactory to her tastes, we have something we know she most likely will eat. Sometimes it's yogurt, sometimes cheese and crackers, sometimes (like today) it's an avocado.

Children are so full of honesty at these young ages. Why is it that adults don't respect it when kids say "I don't like peas" We wouldn't insist an adult guest sit at the table until they finished their peas. We wouldn't insist that an adult guest just try one bite before they could leave the table. I think we disrespect children when we plow over their simple honest feedback about food and try to power struggle with them.

I also think we need to consider a child's food intake on a week by week basis instead of a day by day basis. I know there have been days in my young toddler's life where she was an eating machine, where every hour I was getting her snacks it seemed. (and I won't forget the nights she was waking at 18 months in the middle of the night requesting a sandwich and eating the WHOLE thing! Growth spurt indeed!) Now there are some days she hardly eats at all. I don't freak about the day to day. I look at her nutritional input over many days and make sure that I am offering her healthy varieties over a span of days instead of worrying about what she ate today.

I hope that helps.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Our family feeding is based on Ellyn Satter's books. She is a well known and very respected nutritionist.

We have a "division of responsibility"

We decide WHEN meals and snacks are served (after infancy when feeding on demand is what occurs)

We decide WHAT is served

Our kids decide IF and how much they will eat.

So if you dont' want stir fry you don't have to eat it. BUT we don't make something else. Now we always serve something that is liked by all (maybe the plain rice served with the stir fry, as an example)

If you don't eat dinner, that's your business. A treat is always served after the main meal and you don't have to eat any dinner to get it.

A healthy snack is also served right before bed (or was when they were little and there was alot of time between dinner and bed).

Our kids are really good adventerous eaters. We do think this is why.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

First, I let ds know when I start cooking dinner what we're having. If it's not something he usually eats I will cook him something easy like mac & cheese. Then I can save the leftovers for his lunch the next day.

I don't bribe or force him to eat. If he's hungry, he'll eat.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I make what we have and if they don't like it they can choose not to eat it but they don't get something else. occaisionally something goes terribly wrong while cooking and I make a second meal for everyone because what I made is truely disgusting by all standards but that is rare. I can't afford to make one thing and then thow it out in favor of somehting else. our food budget is tight so I am sure to buy food that I know people like only occaisioally trying a new recipie. So generally I know they like it, don't have texture issues with it etc. . . If they are hungry enough they will eat it. if not they go to bed and rarely complain (becuase they know complaints will be met with "well I can heat it up for you







" which occaisionally they take me up on )

so in short hehehe they happily eat what is served or happily go without but I really try to serve food people like. I never make a big deal out of "take 4 bites" or anything. what is the point. they will eat it if they are hungry enough.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think it is absolutely wrong to fix a meal and tell a child they have no choice but to eat it or go hungry. It is not gentle parenting.

If it's really and truly the only food you have, chances are, your child will be glad to eat it.

If they'd rather have peanut butter sandwich than lasanga, and you have bread and peanut butter in the house, let them make a sandwich! As long as it's whole wheat and natural peanut butter, it's good eats. It's better than most kids in the world will EVER eat.

We have been flat broke and I have never understood that as a reason to refuse a simple cheap alternative to a child. It's not like *I* won't eat his portion of the lasangna. If he won't eat it, that's just more leftovers for the rest of us. Not a problem here!

The only control I maintain is what I bring home.

Once the food is here I am:

Not the pantry sentry

Not a short order cook

Which means that people are free to eat what and when they like, but they have to do it themselves if it isn't what I cooked.


----------



## sun-shine01 (Aug 9, 2002)

Sorry to highjack the the post but my dd will refuse to eat almost ANYTHING for the evening meal - even things that she LOVES - instead she only wants to nurse about every 15 minutes for the rest of the evening and we/she satys up late so like every 15 minutes for 4 hours. She just turned 2. I don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to deny her nursing but I'm just about to loose my mind over the evening marathon nursing. I offer snacks and drinks all evening but she only wants the "Num Nums" Any advice greatly appreciate.


----------



## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Great question! my dd is 4 and is an extremely picky eater (mostly my doing I'm sure). It gets frustrating but like others have said, I know she won't go hungry. THe most frustrating thing really is the tantrum that often goes along with it. I don't want to be a short order cook, but I also don't force her to eat anything. we do encourage her to try things, and there is always a fruit and/or veggie with dinner that she likes and will eat. she eats a lot of toast and cereal, plain spaghettie and annie's shells, though. puppyfluffer, I agree with what you said, but I do think that sometimes my dd tells us she doesn't like something just because that's what pops into her head. I KNOW she does like peas (but only frozen i've discovered) and when she says she doens't like them what she really means is I don't feel like eating them today. in that case, I do encourage her to just have a bite or two (but it's not a "eat two bites or else" kind of thing). I was forced to eat foods as a child that would gag me -- campbell's cream of mushroom soup comes to mind. to this day I cannot stand mushrooms.
maya, i need to check out that author. that sounds like what I am striving to follow!
luckily for my dinnertime sanity, my 2.5 yo son eats just about anything, and the baby is very adventurous so far too.

(sorry for the typos it's late and i'm tired!)


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Like if you made stirfry for dinner and they scream and want mac and cheese, do you make them mac and cheese?
Yes.

There are nights when dh, dd and I all have something different for dinner. We all eat what we want. Usually we are happy to have the same thing but sometimes one or more of us will have our hearts set on something else.

When she is older she can cook her own food if she wants something different, but now I'm happy to do it for her. I love cooking.

If she wants nothing for dinner, that's fine too. If she wants to eat before everyone else, or after everyone else, fine. I only insist she eat at the table, otherwise she makes a mess.

I also don't make dessert contingent upon eating dinner.


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

back before dd got crafty and too smart for me- I used to mix things and disguise quite well








Like, mash up some meat in applesauce, or put her veggies in applesauce or yogurt. I swear, she would eat ANYTHING(usually)if it was in yogurt or applesauce.
But now shes an independant growing toddler and is picky, so I also have healthy yes foods on hand. But I am trixy and like to add green food and brewers yeast and carob and nut butters to things.Like-oh, ok you can have some yo-baby yopgurt-hehe, with some peanut butter and greenfood-shhhhh!
Oh, and a health drink I used to make dd drink everyday when she weaned while I was pregnant was goat and rice milk with brewers yeast and carob powder.







It was my nutrition cure all.:LOL


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I think it is absolutely wrong to fix a meal and tell a child they have no choice but to eat it or go hungry. It is not gentle parenting.

I


I disagree. If this is what you want to do fine, but to me say its not "gentle parenting is to me just plain wrong.

Children are naturally neophobic about food. If given a choice a large percentage will not try new things. They will stick with the pb and j or whatever food they are "comfortable with" . (not all fit this pattern of course, but a large ennough percentage to be statistically very significant. Take a look at the underlying studies done by Satter and other nutritional researchers on this topic.) Satter has proven that the best way to deal with the neo-phobia is to give a chioce about whether to eat it but not to offer a 'safe' food instead.

Her studies also show that people who are not given a chance to let go of "safe foods" in childhood often become people who are afraid of new foods as adults (Interetingly the same thing happens when children are forced to eat a food, rather than being told that it is their choice.)
I believe it it my job as a parent to help my kids expand their palate.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

My dd just turned three and this is the first age I can honestly say she is looking for actual meals three to four times a day.

Up to this point she would graze and pick and sometimes sit at the table with us. We have never been 'strict' on making her stay at the table and now she is staying to eat on her own.

I include her in meal prep alot. We talk alot about what foods we will have and if she expresses that she doesn't want a meal (before its prepared) then we talk until she and I find something we agree on.

From that point I am careful to keep some of the veg raw and seperate, plain rice etc so she can prepare the bowl of food to her liking. I keep her really involved.

If she just doesn't want to eat, then thats okay. She will eat when she is hungry and I will offer her options, within reason, with limits.

We never have junk food or empty calorie food around so she is developing a palate for food without additives or sugar. Such as homemade youghurt, baking and stews and soups.

Hope this has helped you out. Enjoy your baby!


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

If I made a stirfry for dinner and they asked for something else that required cooking, I would tell them that we dont' have any of that cooked and they can try the stirfry. We eat dinner as a family and if they don't want to eat what's in front of them, they can always excuse themselves from the table. But I don't jump up and make them something else. I suggest that they taste it and try to make it sound appealing..."Ooooh look at the baby trees in this thai curry!"
And of course, if they don't eat dinner, they end up hungry later. I let them have a snack like some kefir or a piece of cheese and half an apple or something like that. If that doesn't satisfy them, I offer to heat up their dinner plate in the microwave. Sometimes that works. It's not a big deal to me if they don't eat a whole lot before bed. Digestion slows down when we sleep so eating light before bed is actually better.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sun-shine01*
Sorry to highjack the the post but my dd will refuse to eat almost ANYTHING for the evening meal - even things that she LOVES - instead she only wants to nurse about every 15 minutes for the rest of the evening and we/she satys up late so like every 15 minutes for 4 hours. She just turned 2. I don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to deny her nursing but I'm just about to loose my mind over the evening marathon nursing. I offer snacks and drinks all evening but she only wants the "Num Nums" Any advice greatly appreciate.

If she is nursing every 15 minutes for 4 hours, how long is she nursing at each session? Does she nurse at all during the night? I might encourage her to either nurse longer at a stretch or wait a bit before nursing again. And maybe, after she has nursed a time or two, offer her something to eat.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
"I think it is absolutely wrong to fix a meal and tell a child they have no choice but to eat it or go hungry. It is not gentle parenting."

I disagree. If this is what you want to do fine, but to me say its not "gentle parenting is to me just plain wrong.

Children are naturally neophobic about food. If given a choice a large percentage will not try new things. They will stick with the pb and j or whatever food they are "comfortable with" . (not all fit this pattern of course, but a large ennough percentage to be statistically very significant. Take a look at the underlying studies done by Satter and other nutritional researchers on this topic.) Satter has proven that the best way to deal with the neo-phobia is to give a chioce about whether to eat it but not to offer a 'safe' food instead.

Her studies also show that people who are not given a chance to let go of "safe foods" in childhood often become people who are afraid of new foods as adults (Interetingly the same thing happens when children are forced to eat a food, rather than being told that it is their choice.)
I believe it it my job as a parent to help my kids expand their palate.

I see telling a child they have no choice but to eat what you served them or go hungry to be forcing them to eat what you served. Choosing between eating something you don't like or going hungry is not a choice, it's a threat. That is not gentle discipline. There are other ways. Simply saying that the child can choose to eat the food or not is different than saying "Eat it or starve".


----------



## carolsly (Oct 5, 2004)

If you don't like what is served or what mom is eating (I can't eat what the family is eating sometimes due to my restricted diet..gastric bypass) then you may have a PB&J or a bowl of cereal. No one goes hungry. I don't make a big deal out of food. I have enough food issues to cover their lives. I often leave their food (as long as it doesn't have things in it that can spoil quickly) out for at least an hour after the dinner hour. They can come pick if they want to. I especially have to do this for dd#2 as she is only 23lbs and 3ft at 2.5. In my house, if there is something that is in the fridge that is already prepared (ie yesterdays leftovers etc.) and you want it, it's all yours. Leftovers are not served as dinner again. They go in dh's lunch, or I snack on them if possible, or they get eaten at other times. My kids know that they can get an apple, carrot, etc out of the fridge whenever they want to. Dry cereal eaten right out of a snack dish is cool with me too. They will do this while they are coloring or doing some other activity.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm with Greaseball. I'll make something else. Nothing elaborate, but certainly mac and cheese. I would hope she wouldn't need to scream to get some food she likes.

When Rain was 5 and 6 she literally ate about 6 main dish-type things - bean burritos; peanut butter, wheat germ, and honey sandwiches; veggie potstickers, and I guess a few more. She did not eat mac and cheese.

I read somewhere about how it was biologically wise for children to stick to the same, safe foods, and that was why they did it. Small children's immune systems are complete until 6 or so, so while they're weaning (or weaned) but not immunologically mature, it makes perfect sense to stick with the tried and true.

Between 6 and 8 Rain's palate expanded at a slow, steady rate, just by having things available and offering them, no pressure. Now she eats a pretty wide range of foods. She doesn't eat red meat, fish, or shellfish, and she only occasionally eats fowl or pig, but that's more of an ethical thing with her (she was a complete vegetarian between ages 6 and 8). She does make a mean homemade hummus, and tonight for dinner we had a salad with veggie lasagna, none of which she would have eaten at 6. She also can't believe she ever disliked mac and cheese.

Neither Rain nor I eat much fruit, but I have a theory that we can't physiologically handle fruit esters, like an allergy.

Eating food you don't like feels cruddy. So does being hungry and not being allowed to eat anything you like. I try not to create issues about food. Food and eating should have pleasant associations, IMO...

For those of you who expect your children to eat what's served or nothing, would you feel differently if they decided not to eat a certain food for moral or ethical reasons, like vegetarianism or boycotting Ne$tle?

Dar


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

For me it is not a black and white issue.

I have heard plenty of kids say "I don't like peas" when the truth was they didn't want peas. It is our job to help their clarify the difference.

I have seen plenty of kids take a bit or two of food and go "I am full". Then ten minutes later ask for a different food. I don't think it is wrong to tell your child you said you were full so you have to wait or to make them finish the food they have started eating.

I include my kids on food/diner choices but at times I have said this is it :"Eat it or go with out."

There has been times I have been so broke that box of mac and cheese was tomorrow nights dinner. Eat what was put in front of you because there was no other food. Fixing separate meals can be expensive. Some homes have no other options.

I have watched children that has told me they were not going to eat XYZ food. They have told me to take them to MCD or they would starve. They did this twice at my house and found out I was not going to do play that game. They started eating what was served, after a while I would let them substitute a little but not much. These parents would fix three of four different meals at night for the entire family to eat something. These kids were fat because they could manipulate and ask for the easy to make foods. These kids did loose wait when the parent got divorced and they started having to do the eat what you served or do without (parents could no longer afford the separate meals). So their can be a child to adult manipulation. We do not know the dynamics of the family. It could have been the that these kids were being "manipulative".

My middle child (6) has reflux. She will refuse foods. I know it can hurt her to eat but I have to use some judgment. Ask her if she wants to wait and eat it later. I know the hurt foods. So if I make them I will make her something else.

So I do think there is a time and place for the "eat or starve" and then there is time you let them grab something else.


----------



## fiikske (Jun 29, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts yet, but with dd (she's 22 months now) I'd do the following:

step 1: try to see if she'd eat some of it by making it a game? Lately she loves to taste food, or dedicate every bite of the food to some people she knows. Although this works when she starts to get bored feeding herself, it usually doesn't work with new food.

step 2: if gaming doesn't work, I'll suggest a plain and boring alternative: you want some bread? you want some milk? And she'll be happy with those...

I wouldn't make a big fuss out of it though... if she doesn't like the dinner, somewhere I consider that that is her own right. Even my husband sometimes replaces the dinner I made with a simple piece of bread.

Fiikske


----------



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I think that you have to find a middle ground between respecting your child's tastes and appetite and letting them turn you into a short order cook.

If you start with the assumption that your child has no reason not to eat what you prepare, you'll have a much easier time. I see lots of parents who seem to think that children need extra incentives to simply eat food, which is ridiculous if you think about it. Humans get hungry and they need to eat. Starting out a child's experience with food by making them special meals probably results in a child who is much pickier than she would be naturally (because some children are naturally picky) and expects every meal to be comprised of only her very favorite foods. I really think too many people have been brainwashed by the media and think children will not like anything other than mac and cheese, pizza, hot dogs, and pbj sandwiches. Look at any school lunch menu and see how true this is...

I often tell my daughter that the foods available for dinner may not be her favorites, but that is not the same as truly disliking them. She understands, and I trust that when she says she really doesn't like something, she means it. I try to make meals that will please all three members of our family, and when I want to make something that DH and I llike but she does not, I will make her something else - for example, she dislikes zucchini, so I might make a small dish of another veggie just for her. And of course, at least once a week I make one her very favorite dinners - none of which are "kiddie food," by the way.

As far as how much she eats? That's pretty much up to her, but when she eats two bites of dinner and says she's done, she knows she won't be getting something different twenty minutes later. I do try to make sure she is hungry at dinnertime, though, so I tend to not give a lot of afternoon snacks. If she's really hungry at, say, 5 p.m., I might give her some raw bits of veggies to munch as I cut up the rest for dinner.

I don't know if people would criticze the way I do things, but here's my proof that it works - my daughter has a healthier diet than 99% of the kids I know. Part of that might be luck, but not all!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

kava wrote:

Quote:

I see telling a child they have no choice but to eat what you served them or go hungry to be forcing them to eat what you served. Choosing between eating something you don't like or going hungry is not a choice, it's a threat. That is not gentle discipline.
Thank you, very well put.

maya wrote:

Quote:

Her studies also show that people who are not given a chance to let go of "safe foods" in childhood often become people who are afraid of new foods as adults (Interetingly the same thing happens when children are forced to eat a food, rather than being told that it is their choice.)
Maya this approach is completely subjective, and it borders on food control issues that are IMO about the parent, not the child. There are also known connections between obesity and an inability to listen to your own body signals with food.

To say that it is a good idea to withhold "safe" foods on principle, defys justification as gentle parenting, or even good long term planning.

I disagree that it is the "job" of the parent to make their child the sort who happily eats whatever the parent wants them to eat.

Children in simpler societies ate one thing for the better part of 2 years. Breastmilk.

The foods eaten by indigineous people are limited to the region in which they live.

It is not at ALL unusual for children the world over the eat the same thing for dinner, ever day, their entire childhood.

An american child with a personal preference for, say, 5 or 6 basic meals is IMO absolutely normal.

You CAN deal with problem area's respectfully. My son has a cardiac condition, and stopping gaining weight altogether two years ago. We talked about it and came up with some foods he liked that were high fat, high protein, and he agreed to eat at least 5 times a day (3 meals plus snacks). After six months this worked and he gained several pounds. There were a few items I thought would help him gain, and he was iffy about them. I told him I really felt it was important he try, and he said he would agree to try. He wound up adding a few things to his regular diet as a result. Some, he tried, hated and didn't have again.

No need to work against him, but just to work together.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

An american child with a personal preference for, say, 5 or 6 basic meals is IMO absolutely normal.
Don't some of us have just a few favorite meals they eat regularly? Dinner in our house is usually one of these: meat/potatoes or rice/veggies, pasta/meat/salad, soup/salad/bread, or hamburgers. What's wrong with that? I don't feel the need to deprive myself of all these foods and just eat some other kind of food that I would not automatically choose, all in the name of exploration. I have found what works for me and will stick with it until I change my mind. Why is it not OK for children to do the same?

We talk about letting children have access to breastmilk until they are ready to let it go, but then we're supposed to deny them macaroni and cheese before they want to let that go?


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

ITA with maya. I cook dinner and the kids can either eat it or not eat it. But an alternative isn't offered, unless I'm making something that I know they don't like. With our dinners, there is always a side dish, like rice or pasta, that I know the kids like to eat. If they aren't hungry, I'll put the food in the fridge and they can eat it later. There is also fruit, which we serve after dinner.

We all eat the same meal. If dh has cooked a meal that I'm not wild about, I eat it anyway. I don't make myself something different. The same goes for my cooking.

My kids are pretty good about trying new things. I have seen with my older daughter many times that it really is true that in order to develop a liking for a new food, you need to taste it a few times. There are many foods that she didn't like initially (before she'd really ever tried them) that she will now ask for.


----------



## love2all (Dec 13, 2003)

We are struggling with this in our house- dh says he (ds1-age 6) needs to eat something other than just carbos ie- he will eat an almond butter sandwich or homemade muffin but the problem is he says NO to his supper- ususally without even trying it.
So what I am asking here is-
how do you handle the 'I dont want it' when the dc has not even tried it?
And is almond butter and bread really sound nutrition? (he recently quit eating all fruit and he never has liked veggies)
I mean what about the need for some of these vitamans and minerals that are only in fruit or veggies?

And yes we have tried smoothies/vitamans/making food fun etc and he still won't eat. DH and I fight about this more than anything else in our whole 16 years together....
help!!!!!!!!!


----------



## daileyjoy (Aug 10, 2004)

Well here is what I do with 2 picky eaters.
Usually before begin cooking I ask "What do we want for dinner" and give at least 2 choices and go from there. I will usually make 2 sides and they have to eat all of one and a bite from the other. If I know dinner will be huge deal because it is something they hate they both know how to make a sandwich because I already cooked once. That usually only happens when we are low on groceries and there are not many choices. But every often I do make them eat even if they don't like it, and I always make them them take at least a bite or two from a new food. I do not think it is a good idea to raise children who are scared to try new things.

jennifer


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

my 21mo DS has tons and tons of food issues and mealtime used to be an enormous stress for me. he doesn't try new foods, he gags and then pukes on most foods that he doesn't know very well, and has only demonstrated real hunger for food a few times in his life (other than for nursing)...it used to stress me out so much that i'd be in a horrible mood most days bc he wasn't eating. but i've slowly learned to chill the heck out. he's getting my breastmilk, the only "unhealthy" food he's ever given is french fries and that's once a month, if that...he almost never eats what we're eating because he won't try it. i usually put a little bit of our food on his tray anyway, but 99.99999% of the time he won't touch it. so what? he's eating his own healthy foods and i'm content with that. when he's older we'll try some new strategies but for now, i'm ok with it for the most part. don't get me wrong, i'll never stop trying to gently encourage him to try new things but i'm not gonna get bent out of shape about it.

oh, the most recent strategy we've tried to get him to taste a new food is that we told him to give the food a kiss. he did and some of it got on his lips, so he licked it off and found out that he liked it. SCORE!!!!!!


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

I make dinner and sometimes my son likes it and sometimes he just isn't hungry so I don't stress over it.


----------



## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
If my dd doesn't want to eat her dinner, she doesn't have to eat her dinner.

If I make her something and she doesn't want it, I offer her an easy alternative (sandwich, yogurt, etc.) and she can have it.

I am blessed - my dd is extremely easy about eating. When she doesn't want to eat something, I take it seriously and offer her an alternative. I wouldn't cook her a separate meal but I don't have a problem offering her an alternative.

Oh, and I never urge her to eat one more bite. How does anyone determine when someone else is full?

















I do the exact same thing with my dd.

I also look at her intake for the week, not just a day. Sometimes she eats like a bird, but eventually has a day or two of eating a lot.


----------



## Harper (Jul 10, 2003)

It's amazing how much more goes on with food then just food isn't it. There are so many other issues. I am very lucky that I have not had very many "food issues" in my life. But my mother had and has lots of "food issues" so I'm familiar. Feeding dd is so worrisome. Is she eating enough? The right stuff? Why, at nearly 2, is she still eating baby food? She loved ravioli last time, why won't she eat it now? Why doesn't she like what I fixed.

I work really hard not to stress out about the way she eats. I'm trying to trust that she will eat what she wants when she is hungry. She always sits down to dinner with us, but she rarely stays the whole time. I've decided to go with giving her a choice of cereal/milk or almond butter and toast if she doesn't like what we are having. I always give her what we are having and let her decide. I might try to cajole her but if she is adament, I am not going to fight with her. She just fights back and our dinner is ruined. I also do not want to fix lots of meals or get up a thousand times during "my" dinner so the cereal or toast thing is simple and easy.

The thing that makes me feel the most comfortable is that I don't have any junk in the house. She will eat if she is hungry and if all she wants are cookies, she can have them because they only have almond, oats, bananas and raisins in them (Thanks Cathe!).

I really wish she was a more adventurous eater but I'm doing the best I can!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

EFMom wrote:

Quote:

We all eat the same meal. If dh has cooked a meal that I'm not wild about, I eat it anyway. I don't make myself something different. The same goes for my cooking
Yes but you could make yourself something else, and you know that. You choose to eat what he made. That is not the same as making a meal and forbidding your child from eating anything else. The comparison would be your husband making a meal, and demanding you eat it or go hungry. How would that be respectful?

Please someone give me a reason why a child cannot make a healthy alternative at mealtimes, if they don't like the meal.

So far, I am just hearing that this is a control issue for the parents. No one has said why it will harm a child to have alternatives.

love2all:

He knows you are fighting about this. He knows it has become a huge issue. I guarrantee the more you argue over this the worse it will get.

Stop talking about it. Let it go. He will not starve. Really.

After giving each other some space, I would come back to this issue and talk *with* your son about it.

Get some books on nutrition and read them together. Ask him to make you a drawing of the things he likes to eat. Get some books together on health meals for kids. Take him to the grocery store with you. Guide him toward a few meals he eats that are well rounded.

There is no quick solution. You have to work together.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
For those of you who expect your children to eat what's served or nothing, would you feel differently if they decided not to eat a certain food for moral or ethical reasons, like vegetarianism or boycotting Ne$tle?

Dar


I expect my kids to eat (or not) what is served. No matter what the reason they don't want something, they simply don't have to eat it, but no I will not make something else. But as I said there is always something they tolerate, even if they don't love it. Meat is served with rice or, potato. If they don't want to eat the meat they can make their meal with what remains. Fruits and Veggies are also always on the table.

But kids "safe" outs like peanut butter, pasta, and cereal are not there on an everyday basis.

Dessert is served evert day and you don't have to eat something else ("healthy) to get it. There is also a bedtime snack. No one "starves" if they don't eat at one particular meal. But they are given the opportunity to try new things rather than "hide" behind a safe choice at the moment.

Hundreds of studies show that repeatedly trying a food will increase by a huge percentage, one eventual liking of that food. However, this will not work if one is forced to put the food in one's mouth. It really does work to divide the responsiblity between parents and children. Before you condem this, read the nutritional studies. They are powerful!

This is not a matter of discipline. It is a matter of buliding a healthy relationship with food.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Maya,
Do you include your children in the meal planning or is this choice entirely yours?


----------



## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

In our house, we don't have official meal times and rarely have formal meals with several items. I don't make eating an issue. If he's hungry, he will eat something. If he asks for something specific, I will give it to him provided it is not candy or pop.







Toddlers go through so many phases that it would drive me insane to try to "make" him eat what I thought he should be eating. Usually, I give him a choice before we eat: For instance, "Do you want pancakes or cereal? or another time it might be: "Do you want green beans or carrots?" I try not to give him choices like "Do you want brussel sprouts or french fries?" Obviously, he would choose french fries. Once he has made his decision, I don't make something else. If he doesn't want to eat what he chose, than he probably isn't that hungry. There are some times that he will change his mind and want something else, but I tell him that he wanted "so-in-so" and he will play a while and then decide he really would like to eat "that."

Personally, I don't think that anyone should force their child to eat anything...it just creates resentment and struggle. I have some bad memories of being forced to eat certain foods. You can really just keep offering different foods and let them exparament on their own. When they get older, let them help in the preparations to make it more fun. Sometimes just calling something by a different name or cutting it in a fun shape helps a lot. For instance, monkey brains instead of spaghetti. My son will not eat a peice of cheese if you give it to him in a slice, but shread it or cut it into odd shapes and he gobbles it down. Just make it fun and try not to worry too much!


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *love2all*
We are struggling with this in our house- dh says he (ds1-age 6) needs to eat something other than just carbos ie- he will eat an almond butter sandwich or homemade muffin but the problem is he says NO to his supper- ususally without even trying it.
So what I am asking here is-
how do you handle the 'I dont want it' when the dc has not even tried it?
And is almond butter and bread really sound nutrition? (he recently quit eating all fruit and he never has liked veggies)
I mean what about the need for some of these vitamans and minerals that are only in fruit or veggies?

And yes we have tried smoothies/vitamans/making food fun etc and he still won't eat. DH and I fight about this more than anything else in our whole 16 years together....
help!!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming your son is refusing to eat because of the struggle. My niece had some food issues (I could go into the reasons for them but I might bore you) and my brother just acted like it was no big deal. She's 16 yrs old and still extremely picky and she's also very overweight. She's very stubborn and the more pressure he puts on her about it, the more she hides eating or the less foods she will choose from to eat. He didn't go out of his way to fix her special meals and just offered meals with the family like everyone else. Every once in a while he would give her her favorites: chips and sour cream, cereal and milk and spaghetti. He didn't give those to her at every meal though. Sometimes she wouldn't eat. Sometimes she would eat something she didn't like that much because she was really hungry. But fighting about it won't help. You can't force a child to eat, sleep or use the toilet. Those are things they have control over and those are things they will exercise their control over if there is a struggle.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Maya,
Do you include your children in the meal planning or is this choice entirely yours?

On Sunday mornings before I go to the grocery, i ask my family what one main course they want the next week. Each gets a choice of what the main course will be one day a week. (I have 3 dd's) I ask my DH for his choice one day. I choose another. I decide what the sides will be and bake a desert or two every week (though everyone likes those!) and on the weekends we usually eat out or at friend's homes.

Just to give you an example, here is this last week so far

Monday (DD 1's choice Steak) served with bake potatoes, cucumbers and tomatoes, brocolli and orange slices. DD 1 ate all but the tomatoes DD2 does not like steak but had potatoes tomatoes and oranges. DD 3 ate only steak and oranges.

Tuesday: (DD 2 Choice Chicken in Soy Sauce) served with rice, asparagus, strawberries and asian slaw salad. DD's 2 and 1 ate all. DD 3 ate only asparagus and strawberries and a little of the salad.

Wednesday (DD 3 choice Salmon) served with sweet potato fries, Ceasar salad, apple slices, rolls and spinach. DD 3 ate all. DD2 ate all but spinach. DD 1 ate only Ceasar Salad and a roll.

No one goes hungry. Everyone finds "something" It works for us.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I just wanted to say that people with toddlers who are breastfeeding need not worry too much about their child's balanced nutrition or eating or lack of eating meals. They are learning and exploring. They might just want to smear yogurt in their hair at one meal or dump everything off the high chair tray the next. You don't really need to force them into mealtime schedules or cajole or convince them to eat anything. They are going to eat when they are hungry and they will try things eventually and they also enjoy feeding themselves and learning about tastes and textures.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

maya if they don't want what you serve, how is it better that they make due with the rice side dish and banana on the table, rather than simply making themselves something more substantial?

Again, this sounds like a control issue. They can eat whatever you put on the table, but nothing else?

Maya research has proven that children are capable of rounding out their diets over a period of days if given healthy choices.

I think it's great that you want to provide a variety of foods for them, and I think it is harmful to restrict them to only those choices, if other healthy choices are in the home.


----------



## daileyjoy (Aug 10, 2004)

My mother would fill up the crisper with foods I liked and I was allowed to go and snack on that during the day. They were good foods not junk and she said it helped a lot. I was always underweight and never much of an eater.

Jennifer


----------



## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Hi, OP here. My only concern with making them something else, is I don't want them to learn that if they don't like what they get and they throw a fit they'll get something else. Because life isn't like that. How do you prevent that? And at what age is it realistic to expect a child to make their own sandwhich and what do you d before then?


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
maya if they don't want what you serve, how is it better that they make due with the rice side dish and banana on the table, rather than simply making themselves something more substantial?


Have you read Ellyn Satter's research? It show by having foods on the table that form one's choices one becomes over time more accepting (and actually develop a taste for) many foods that one would not, if one felt one could always hide behind grabbing some known 'safe" food. Even if that food is healthy, it does not allow for developing a taste for many foods.

I don't want my kids to be the kind of people who are afraid to try new foods or panic when there is "nothing they like" at a company meal (and I have seen this happen)


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

My only concern with making them something else, is I don't want them to learn that if they don't like what they get and they throw a fit they'll get something else. Because life isn't like that. How do you prevent that?
So instead of throwing a fit, they can ask nicely. They can say "Please can I have something else?"

I don't know what age a child can make a sandwich, but if they were too young I would do it for them. It's really not any trouble. When I was five I made baked potatoes stuffed with broccoli and cheese with no parental help (supervision though). I don't know what other five-year-olds can do.

Quote:

I don't want my kids to be the kind of people who are afraid to try new foods or panic when there is "nothing they like" at a company meal (and I have seen this happen)
I carry protein bars with me to all potlucks in case there is nothing I like there. It's really no big deal.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
On Sunday mornings before I go to the grocery, i ask my family what one main course they want the next week. Each gets a choice of what the main course will be one day a week. (I have 3 dd's) I ask my DH for his choice one day. I choose another. I decide what the sides will be and bake a desert or two every week (though everyone likes those!) and on the weekends we usually eat out or at friend's homes.

Just to give you an example, here is this last week so far

Monday (DD 1's choice Steak) served with bake potatoes, cucumbers and tomatoes, brocolli and orange slices. DD 1 ate all but the tomatoes DD2 does not like steak but had potatoes tomatoes and oranges. DD 3 ate only steak and oranges.

Tuesday: (DD 2 Choice Chicken in Soy Sauce) served with rice, asparagus, strawberries and asian slaw salad. DD's 2 and 1 ate all. DD 3 ate only asparagus and strawberries and a little of the salad.

Wednesday (DD 3 choice Salmon) served with sweet potato fries, Ceasar salad, apple slices, rolls and spinach. DD 3 ate all. DD2 ate all but spinach. DD 1 ate only Ceasar Salad and a roll.

No one goes hungry. Everyone finds "something" It works for us.


Here is how it works.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama*
Hi, OP here. My only concern with making them something else, is I don't want them to learn that if they don't like what they get and they throw a fit they'll get something else. Because life isn't like that. How do you prevent that? And at what age is it realistic to expect a child to make their own sandwhich and what do you d before then?

I don't make something else. I usually have them "helping" while I'm making dinner so they are interested anyway. We all sit together at the table and eat or don't eat. If they decide they don't want to eat, they can leave the table and wait until everyone else is done. After the table is cleared, I sometimes get requests for snack food or they help themselve. My son is almost 4 and my daughter 2 1/2. They have free access to fresh fruit, dried fruit, snacking veggies like baby carrots and celery sticks, cheese cubes (cut up in a container in the fridge) and bread and butter. They also will ask for juice or kefir sometimes.
For me, it's not a matter of control, it's just a matter of logic and my personal capabilities. I spend a lot of time and energy cooking a meal and then I'm really hungry. I involve them in the preparation a bit too. If I sit down to eat and they want me to be a short order cook, they are going to have to wait until I've finished eating. And even then, I may have a kitchen full of dirty dishes and dirty pots and not be available to even BE a short order cook for the simple fact that I would have to wash some dishes before I could cook some more food. So it's just tough luck on their part if they sit down to thai curry or stir fry and request lasagna instead. It's just not going to happen. But we'll talk about lasagna and how yummy it is while eating (or not eating) thai curry.
Sometimes they really aren't hungry at dinner time. It may be because they snacked shortly before dinner or who knows why. But we all sit at the table together and everyone gets a plate. If they want to get up, that's fine. I usually leave their plates on the table for an hour or so and they come back to it. My son will ask for his meal to be reheated or my daughter will just eat it as is. They've never gotten the concept of asking for something different. I've never offered it to them either. But they just don't have to eat what's in front of them if they don't want to.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama*
Hi, OP here. My only concern with making them something else, is I don't want them to learn that if they don't like what they get and they throw a fit they'll get something else. Because life isn't like that. How do you prevent that? And at what age is it realistic to expect a child to make their own sandwhich and what do you d before then?

Well first of all, of course life IS like that! :LOL Many people get their way by throwing fits.

I think if you don't make food a big point of contention, you won't get contention back. i also think that you should treat a child like any other person to whom you are serving dinner. That is, you should not make things you know they actively dislike or can't eat, and you should provide some alternative food if you can afford the money and time to do that. For example, you can put a basket of bread on the table, or you can have rice with your meal, and your child can eat those things if they unexpectedly don't like the food you are serving.

I am at the "before sandwich" age and I always have hard-boiled eggs, cheese, olives, crackers and fruit available in my fridge. It costs me almost no effort to go open the fridge door and add these items to the table. I figure he will learn to make a sandwich at about three or four years old. I could be wrong!

So far ds likes my cooking and hasn't really turned down any food. I hear the fussy phase is coming. I'm a much better cook than my mom was and I think that might help me avoid some of the food struggles, but we'll see!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Maya wrote:

Quote:

I don't want my kids to be the kind of people who are afraid to try new foods or panic when there is "nothing they like" at a company meal (and I have seen this happen)
That could be for many reasons, and believing 100% that it is because they were not expected to choose from their table as children isn't logical maya. Regardless of what one voice with research shows, there are other studies showing clearly that children do just fine if giving a variety of healthy choices. If someone "panics" at a company meal, that sounds like a more serious issue than just having been a picky eater as a child.

Maya your approach isn't something new. An entire generation of Americans have been raised to eat what was put in front of them. We have some of the worst food habits and obesity problems in the world.

Everything about your approach IMO is fine up to the point that you insist your kids choose what is on the table. This hasn't even worked in your own words. One child on the list ate only a salad and a roll at one meal, another child ate orange, potato, and tomato.

That doesn't sound like a substantial meal. I am confused as to how that is "working". It seems like they are simply going without according to the list.

Again, I think your approach is fine up to the point that you would rather restrict them to a salad and roll than let them add something from the fridge to that if they don't want the main course.

That is just not the real world. I don't understand what that prepares a child to experience. I never have waiters choose what I can order, or grocery clerks restrict what I can buy.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

Yes but you could make yourself something else, and you know that. You choose to eat what he made. That is not the same as making a meal and forbidding your child from eating anything else. The comparison would be your husband making a meal, and demanding you eat it or go hungry. How would that be respectful?
I see this very differently. It would not be respectful of me to turn my nose up at a perfectly edible meal that my husband has worked hard to make. I would never insult him by jumping up to make something else to eat. That would be a very rude thing to do. We also try not to waste a lot of food in our home.

Maya's approach (and mine) does work perfectly well for our families. Our children aren't starving. They manage to find enough to eat from the food we serve. We are teaching them to try new foods and expand their horizons. My older daughter is a joy to take to people's houses for meals because she will always try new foods, and usually she likes them. We don't have dramatic dinner table scenes about food every night, as seems to be the unwritten assumption here. Quite the contrary--we have a great time at dinner 99.9% of the time.

I don't care if anybody else wants to be a short-order or buffet cook. That's up to them. I'm really







that our dinner habits would bother anyone else.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Maya wrote:

Everything about your approach IMO is fine up to the point that you insist your kids choose what is on the table. This hasn't even worked in your own words. One child on the list ate only a salad and a roll at one meal, another child ate orange, potato, and tomato.

That doesn't sound like a substantial meal. I am confused as to how that is "working". It seems like they are simply going without according to the list.


Potato had cheese and slasa in it, the salad egg and cheese. To me these are fine, substantial things to eat for meals.

It is working becuase my kids sit down and eat without complaint. They have never asked for something else, it never has occured to them. They have tried things that I believe they never tried, like Salmon, Tilapia, Eggplant, Beets, and LOVED them. I don't know if they would have if they always had a simple "out".

Satter is not one voice. She is backed by many, many nutritionists in her approach and her approach has been backed my many many studies.

I don't want my kids to feel they need to carry a power bar around because they might not find something to eat. I want them to be comfortable with a wide variety of foods.

This is a VERY different approach than insisting that a child eat a specific food.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

DD(4yo) and I are the "grazers". DS was too until his teenagehood, now he is more like a food buldozer :LOL

There is always some food around the house (aren't we blessed to be able to say that?), so we pick something up and eat it, usually without interrupting our activities.

I don't think I can "stomack" a full dinner *myself*, just a bite or two. Same goes for DD.

We "both" (well as mush as a 4 yo can count as a second cook) cook for our men though - DH and DS







and that's when we have a "family" dinner when guys eat and we join them at the table.

We may have a bite of whatever we cooked, but it is never a struggle or concern of mine.

I do have to sometimes gently remind her to eat (or would actually put something in her mouth myself) if she is too busy with her drawings or blocks or playing house.

Felt like adding some facts:

We are big on fruits and veggies.
DD is 44lbs and 3'5" at 4yo

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

THere are some great points on this thread and I've really learned a lot (and gotten support for what I'm doing here).

I have 3 kids 4 and under and it just isn't feasible to make something different for everyone. I respect thier food choices but I also respect my sanity and my own need to sit down for 5 minutes and eat. The kids are always able to have toast, or cereal or something similar that is very simple. For anyone else with multiple little ones, do you know what I mean? dinner time is absolutely crazy as it is! But I agree with the other poster that said, if one wants to be a short order cook, more power to ya!

One question I have. . .many mamas have siad that if their child says they don't like something, then the mama believes 100% what the child said. I understand this from a respect standpoint, but what about the child who says I don't like it to a food they have never even tried? I tell dd it's fine if she doesn't like something, but she must at least try something before she can know that.

I could go on but it's dinner time and as I said I've got 3 little ones here!

great thread, though


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Once my kids were physically capable of making a bowl of cereal or a peanut butter sandwhich, I don't cater to them too much. Around the age of five and six. I try to make something at each meal that each person can stand. I think a lot of times they do try our stuff because its too much trouble for them to get up and make something themselves. They don't have to go hungry but I'm not getting into a power play.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama*
Hi, OP here. My only concern with making them something else, is I don't want them to learn that if they don't like what they get and they throw a fit they'll get something else.

By not giving them the chance to throw a fit. If they know that they have other options, there's really no reason for a fit.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
I see this very differently. It would not be respectful of me to turn my nose up at a perfectly edible meal that my husband has worked hard to make. I would never insult him by jumping up to make something else to eat. That would be a very rude thing to do. We also try not to waste a lot of food in our home.

That makes sense. But, again, it's your choice. And you can also make the choice to have something else to eat later, if you're still hungry. Can your children?


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I did have another thought. I think it's possible that some children are picky at a certain stage because a lot of foods are new tastes to them, and maybe exposing them to a variety of foods that you like when they are new eaters will be helpful. I'll let you know!


----------



## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:

It would not be respectful of me to turn my nose up at a perfectly edible meal that my husband has worked hard to make. I would never insult him by jumping up to make something else to eat. That would be a very rude thing to do. We also try not to waste a lot of food in our home.
I try to not tie up my self-esteem in whether people like my cooking or not. Which is suprising since, growing up, I would often cook supper for my father when my Mom was working late. One of the highest compliments (coming from him) was, "Mmmm! This is great! You're going to make some husband very happy someday!"








I think that everyone, children included, know what is best for their bodies. If I had a craving for a certain food like hard-boiled eggs, for instance, I'd eat 1 or 2 every day for 3 or 4 days. Then, I wouldn't eat any more of that certain food for about a month. My body needed some vitamin or nutrient that is found in eggs, which is why I craved them. If only healthy alternatives are available in the house, kids are perfectly capable of choosing a diet that is right for them. I'm finding that this is more difficult now that I'm an adult, and I'm in control of what's in my cubbard. I have to force myself to walk past the chips, soda, and rice-crispies cakes in the supermarket and buy healthy fruits & veggies. Given a choice, of course humans will want to choose the food that is bad for them (but tastes good). The trick is to only make healthy choices available.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I also wanted to point out that my DD has never been forced to eat a single thing, nor urged to, nor cajoled to, and she is a wonderful eater. You don't create picky eaters by giving them choices, sometimes you empower them to try new things.

My DD doesn't try new foods because she is "supposed to" or to please me, she does it because she wants to.

Quote:

One question I have. . .many mamas have siad that if their child says they don't like something, then the mama believes 100% what the child said. I understand this from a respect standpoint, but what about the child who says I don't like it to a food they have never even tried? I tell dd it's fine if she doesn't like something, but she must at least try something before she can know that.
I have told my daughter that she might like something if she tries it but I don't tell her that she has to try it. I think that there are lots of kids who say they "don't like something" before they have tried it - and millions of adults who do the same thing. It's human nature to be wary of new things and sometimes certain foods look or smell or remind one of foods once eaten that weren't well-liked.

I pick my battles - never trying a particular food (or not trying it at the moment) is just not one of them. I just refuse to make food any type of a control issue, whether it is one bite or a whole meal. I have only healthy food in the house so I never have to stress about what she eats (well, except for the secret stash of Milano cookies :LOL ).


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

My DD doesn't try new foods because she is "supposed to" or to please me, she does it because she wants to.

Thank you so much, I agree with this.

Maya, there is absolutely evidence that children can make wise food choices if given healthy options. If you choose to ignore it, it's your perogative, but it makes any discussion with you about respectful and gentle parenting regarding food difficult.

I still have not heard a single reason why a child cannot have freedom and integrity over their own diet.

It's okay to trust our babies to know when they are hungry, but we don't trust our children to make wise food choices?

Being told that you cannot have anything other than what is served is just not respectful of a child.


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I do nothing.







My children are free to eat or not eat what and whenever they want. (Well, aside from poisonous or dangerous things of course. At their ages now that is not a concern lol) If I make something they don't want to eat they do not have to eat it. When they were young I just tried to make something they wished to eat, or I would offer them an easy alternative (cereal, yogurt, fruit, crackers, sandwich, etc) I absolutely do not understand people who refuse their children a choice in what to eat. Every single person (adult) I know likes to have that option and I will never be able to understand why people do not extend that same freedom to their children.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Something I am always mindful of is that it is probably wrong to give ourselves much, if any, credit - or blame - for whether our children are adventurous eaters or not.

For example, a good friend of mine has two sons, two years apart. Both were raised with the same diet, the same parenting attitude towards meals and food (not an extreme parenting attitude in any way at all, either). One always was, and still at age 20 is, extremely adventurous, will try just about anything. The other always was fussy, and is only just, at 18, overcoming this. But it is not an issue for either of them, because their parents never made it an issue.

Whether they eat adventurously or not *had nothing to do with the parenting* . The fact, however, that they both have a healthy attitude to food *has a great deal to do with the parenting.*

So, we should not, imo, get sidetracked by believing that our child turned out the way he did because of what we did - in terms of what they eat. Their attitude, however, towards food as an object for power or for comfort or control, is in our hands.

JMO.

But having witnessed this, I have endeavoured to make food an absolute non-issue in our home. I offer healthy foods. I discuss what I am going to cook with my children, even my two year old. They give input. I don't worry if they eat pasta every day. (They asked for macn'cheese for their Christmas dinner, but I did serve it up on nice dishes, for a treat :LOL ) I keep cooked pasta in the fridge and will happily mix it with a little cheese in the microwave and be what Americans call a 'short order cook' if that's what they want to eat. I don't bother to put food in front of them that I know they don't want. They tell me what they fancy for most meals, and I tell them what I fancy. We make decisions together. Our diet can be repetitive - but dh and I are also happy to live on pasta - we just vary the sauces a little more than the kids.

Food is just no biggie in our house.









Edited to add that when I think about it, one of the things that most excited me about leaving home was having control over what I ate and when. Wow, what freedom! Nobody to insist that I liked things that I didnt like, or to control me through food. I don't want my children to have to leave home to feel that sort of freedom and autonomy.


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

I can see both sides, but I am unclear on what is the major difference is between children having a choice from the 5 things on the table (one of which is something the child always enjoys) and having a choice from the 10 items (may be more, but I know I don't have more than 10 snack items around) in the fridge. It seems like the child still has the power of choice in both situations, although I can see how the child has a broader range of choices if they can get whatever is in the house. In my home we always have oatmeal made when we wake up (thanks to my lovely dh), then my kids usually request what they want for their second breakfast, then they help themselves to whatever snacks they want (fruit and vegs, nut butters, etc), I usually put lunch on the table and they graze, they eat more snacks of their choice, and for dinner we all sit down, say a blessing, and the kids eat from what is on the table, however much or little they choose. If they aren't hungry I put it in the fridge for them to pick at later. It has never been a battle; it has never even come up because this is the way it has always been. They have always had several things on the table that they like so it has never occured to them to ask to have something else. We are truely on a limited budget so I can buy all this %100 organic, free range food, and it truely is a budget issue for me to make something else, because that something else would be coming out of their snack food for the week. About the kids only eating potatoes and tomatoes one day, salmon the next, and salad and a roll on the third; I have always been told to look at nutrition over the week, so it seems like the child is doing just fine.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Great Post Farmer Mama. Thats how it is at our house too. We eat 100% organic as well and therefore on a very strict budget. I simply cannot open the fridge to dd. If I did she would eat all the goatcheese first and then the almond butter second :LOL

But if I plan and have choices for her beyond the most immediate she thrives due to variety. I do say that I offer choices not whatever she wants. We just cannot afford that. :LOL


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

We have issues with this in our house. I used to marvel at people who would tell me that all their kids ate was macncheese or pizza or plain pasta with butter. Now, I completely get it.

DS is almost 3. He does not like most things that I prepare. He really likes mac and cheese. I usually end up making him this if I know he won't eat my stir fry or soup or whatever. I'm a bit happier knowing that he ate something, rather than nothing. Even if it's mac. I try to introduce new things, but he's really in a no experimenting phase. If I don't feel like making him something separate, I'll give him a yogurt or cottage cheese and fruit.

It's a dilemma, it really is.


----------



## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

I have to support maya on this.

DD is involved in meal planning. We talk about what we'd like to eat during the week before I do the grocery shopping. I plan meals based on what the whole family likes (and respect true dislikes. A prime example here is that DH iis pathologically afraid of bananas, so I never serve ANYTHING with bananas iin it as part of a family meal) and there are always SOME things in each meal that I know DD enjoys. She gets to choose what she'll eat from each meal (I usually serve at least three vegies, a carb and some protein in each meal. She may choose to eat only two of the vegies and the protein, or the carb and one of the vegies etc).

We always have fruit available (and crackers and dip and usually homemade muffins etc we also make smoothies and frozen yoghurt bars and sandwiches of different kinds for snacks). Breakfast is hard because DH and I eat cereal and we've yet to find a cereal that DD likes (she often has crackers and cheese or ham, occasionally a muffin, sometimes fruit crumble with yoghurt - but it would be so much easier if she'd eat cereal :LOL ). Lunch varies, but there's always some level of choice. If she hasn't eaten much lunch, she eats a bigger snack or dinner. It's not really a big deal. She's certainly not going hungry.

DD cooks with me quite often. We talk about what kinds of foods our bodies need. We eat meals together almost without exception (including DS). I'll do the same with DS (in fact he loves to stand on a step while I'm cooking and eat little bits of whatever I'm preparing







). DD had a few dislikes but wasn't at all fussy until after she started school. It frustrates me that she will no longer eat anything with spinach in it when I know that she actually LIKES the taste (the power of suggestion is strong!), but I still cook things with spinach. She can choose to eat them or not.

DD is tall, healthy, active and slim. Some days she eats like a horse. Other days she's just not that hungry. Over a week she eats a wide variety of foods. She's less picky than any of her classmates. And apparently she tells her friends that I'm a great cook







.

We'll see how this approach works with DS. At the moment he'll eat almost anything - including books :LOL - and is especially fond of all kinds of fruit (the only one he's not liked is papaya). Oh, and he LOVES cheese. He eats the same as we're eating unless it's highly spicy or contains nuts or other possibly allergenic foods.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I never thought this topic would stretch 4 pages long!


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Have you read Ellyn Satter's research? It show by having foods on the table that form one's choices one becomes over time more accepting (and actually develop a taste for) many foods that one would not, if one felt one could always hide behind grabbing some known 'safe" food. Even if that food is healthy, it does not allow for developing a taste for many foods.

But you've said there's always something in each meal that each kid likes - isn't that a "safe" food?

I see it as a control thing, too. If you've chosen a protein, a starch, and a veggie, and your child doesn't like the protein, how does adding a jar of peanut butter and some crackers change the equation, except to ensure that your child has a way to get some protein? If you have the type of child who tends towards low blood sugar meltdowns, not providing a source of protein your child will eat is pretty self-defeating...

As far as Ellyn Satter, on her webpage there's no research at all about how her philosophies work with real children. She's a dietician with opinions about how other people should do things, a self-proclaimed "expert". There are lots of "experts" out there telling us how to parent. I think Mothering.Commers are especially unlikely to do things on the advice of a so-called "expert" - they like to do their own thinking!

Dar


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Being told that you cannot have anything other than what is served is just not respectful of a child.


we will just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
But you've said there's always something in each meal that each kid likes - isn't that a "safe" food?...

As far as Ellyn Satter, on her webpage there's no research at all about how her philosophies work with real children. She's a dietician with opinions about how other people should do things, a self-proclaimed "expert". There are lots of "experts" out there telling us how to parent. I think Mothering.Commers are especially unlikely to do things on the advice of a so-called "expert" - they like to do their own thinking!

The last time this came up I went to the Satter website and downloaded out some of her pamphlets. She doesn't seem to me in those pamphlets to say that you shouldn't provide a safe food, just that you shouldn't cook a separate meal. So Maya is actually following what she says.

I think one thing that the folks who are saying "no separate dinner" and the ones who are saying "give them what they ask for" have in common is, we all think that you should not fight children over what they eat. Whether you provide only one meal and say, "eat what you want of this" or you say, "Okay honey, I have more stuff in the kitchen for you to make a sandwich" --you aren't freaking out about whether your child eats the dinner you planned.

If you have a fridge and containers and can chill the food to stop it from going bad, it won't go to waste. Someone in your family will eat it.


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

What a great post captain. I completely agree that it seems like the consensus is that food should not be a battleground and that kids need to have control and choices in what and how much they eat. I think that letting them have that autonomy can be achived by letting them choose whatever they want that is in the house (which is great that it works for you) or by choosing from what is put out for them. All of the moms with the eat from what is on the table camp seem to be respectful, gentle mamas, and are making meals that the kids have input into or things that they know the child enjoys. No one is forcing anyone to eat or letting them starve. We are still allowing our kids to have control over their meals, and I assume (and tell me if I am assuming too much) that all moms exercise some level of control over their kids eating based on their budget, dietary and nutritional concerns, moral and ethical reasons, where they shop, the culture they live in, etc. Again, in my home it is a non-issue, but if all my kids were eating in one meal was a starchy food, I wouldn't care, because I would know that they had plenty of fruit, veggies and protein-rich foods during the day when they snack. Anyhow, I think all mamas are here from a desire to parent gently and with respect, and trying to learn from each other.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
As far as Ellyn Satter, on her webpage there's no research at all about how her philosophies work with real children. She's a dietician with opinions about how other people should do things, a self-proclaimed "expert". There are lots of "experts" out there telling us how to parent. I think Mothering.Commers are especially unlikely to do things on the advice of a so-called "expert" - they like to do their own thinking!

Dar

Try her books. There are appendixes with loads of research studies.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaroni*
THere are some great points on this thread and I've really learned a lot (and gotten support for what I'm doing here).

I have 3 kids 4 and under and it just isn't feasible to make something different for everyone. I respect thier food choices but I also respect my sanity and my own need to sit down for 5 minutes and eat. The kids are always able to have toast, or cereal or something similar that is very simple. For anyone else with multiple little ones, do you know what I mean? dinner time is absolutely crazy as it is! But I agree with the other poster that said, if one wants to be a short order cook, more power to ya!

One question I have. . .many mamas have siad that if their child says they don't like something, then the mama believes 100% what the child said. I understand this from a respect standpoint, but what about the child who says I don't like it to a food they have never even tried? I tell dd it's fine if she doesn't like something, but she must at least try something before she can know that.

I could go on but it's dinner time and as I said I've got 3 little ones here!

great thread, though









I'm about where you're at








When my daughter sees me start to cook she wants to eat immediately. So I'm generally cooking under pressure and going as fast as I possibly can to get the food on the table while she is into everything and being very impatient and my son is trying to stir things and help. I've tried setting them up in their rooms with books or train sets or putting a movie on but they love to be involved with making dinner.
By the time the plates are on the table and everyone is sitting down, I'm exhausted and starving! I'm not going to hop up for everyone and get this or that. If they can't find anything on their plate worth eating, they can go play until I'm done with dinner and then come find me again and we'll talk about something else to eat. They usually eat something at dinner though. I also include things in the meal that I know they will eat.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

farmermama wrote:

Quote:

can see both sides, but I am unclear on what is the major difference is between children having a choice from the 5 things on the table (one of which is something the child always enjoys) and having a choice from the 10 items (may be more, but I know I don't have more than 10 snack items around) in the fridge.
I think it's easier to see the difference if you apply it to yourself.

In your own home, you have access to what foods are there, whenever you want them. You may have certain times you prefer to eat, and you may restrict yourself, but it's completely your choice to make.

In a guest's home, you would restrict yourself to what was on the table.

You don't have to live like a guest in your own home to learn the difference, and neither do children.

I still have not seen any reason why a child cannot have the freedom to fix alternatives if they don't want the main meal at home. They will learn the difference between home and eating out by experiencing it. Just as they learn all the other differences between company manners, and being yourself at home.

And I also think it's curious to view conscious food choices as negative.

What if your child grows up to do better on low carb foods? Low fat? Raw foods? Vegetarian? Macrobiotic? Vegan?

Are they right or wrong to think about what foods work for them, and find ways to thoughtfully apply it when outside the home?

I fail to see how being a "good eater" means eating whatever someone sticks on your plate, without complaint? Isn't good eating making wise choices that make you feel well, and healthy? Isn't this what the entire natural foods industry is teaching people? *NOT* to reach for the cheeseburger or fries served to them regularly in society, but to make wiser choices?

I realize the response will be "But I don't serve my child fatty fried foods", and that IS great, and awesome, and you should be proud of that. However, it is still the choice you made. Your kids have to learn why you make healthy choices, what a healthy choice is, and how to make it for themselves. To do that, they need the freedom to say "No, I don't want that" and then be able to create a healthy alternative. If they don't have that freedom, the message is simply "Eat whatever is on the table".


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I totally get where you are coming from Heartmama.

When dd was concieved I was a vegan, turned veg during the preg and then over the last three years I have introduced fish and bone broth soups and now meat for dd.

My point is that my restrictions on my diet should not be hers. She is not me. I want her to have the variety and then choose what avenue she will walk with food. It is an impowering way to raise her. It fits with Ap.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Your kids have to learn why you make healthy choices, what a healthy choice is, and how to make it for themselves. To do that, they need the freedom to say "No, I don't want that" and then be able to create a healthy alternative. If they don't have that freedom, the message is simply "Eat whatever is on the table"."








ITA


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

As far as Ellyn Satter, on her webpage there's no research at all about how her philosophies work with real children. She's a dietician with opinions about how other people should do things, a self-proclaimed "expert". There are lots of "experts" out there telling us how to parent. I think Mothering.Commers are especially unlikely to do things on the advice of a so-called "expert" - they like to do their own thinking!
Why would anyone want to read a "study" that said they were raising their kids all wrong, when they know they are doing it right? Just because there are studies doesn't mean anything - there are "studies" that "prove" homebirth doubles the risk of newborn death and that c-sections are the safest way of delivery for all babies. I don't care who did these studies and what their credentials are; I'm not convinced.

I'm the expert on my family. A self-proclaimed one, true, but at least my proclimation is right.

I'm going to feed my children the way they want to be fed, not the way someone who has never even met them thinks they ought to eat.


----------



## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*

I'm the expert on my family. A self-proclaimed one, true, but at least my proclimation is right.

I'm going to feed my children the way they want to be fed, not the way someone who has never even met them thinks they ought to eat.


----------



## isisjade (Jan 30, 2004)

Just curious, for those who follow the Ellyn Satter philosophy in terms of being responsible for providing the what, when and where and the child deciding how much or whether to eat, what do you do in terms of breastfeeding? I thought her book Child of Mine was interesting, but for instance, if I serve my 2-year-old meals, and he chooses not to eat (just about all the time, unless the foods happen to be one of the few he is comfortable with--he has not tried a new food in, I would say, the past 9 months), but instead nurses, the advice doesn't really work. I know she discourages nursing on demand after a year, which I don't agree with, but then it seems I am in a quandry in terms of him being hungry enough to try new foods. Any thoughts? (I may have answered my own question in that the philosophy does not seem to gel with on-demand nursing for toddlers...sorry if this is a confusing post!)


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I am facinated by how much passion food debates create on this website. This is certainly not the frist multi-page thread about how to handle meal/food refusal. But on to the question.

First, each family is different and kids are different. Here is what has worked (well, I think) at our house. Maybe it might provide some ideas for others. Not that it's very different from what others have already said.

Either my DH or myself cooks dinner. We have an almost 2 YO and a 5 YO. Its very important for us to have a family dinner each night, and we all start with the same things on our plates. If either child decided they don't want something, regardless of why or what, they can get an alternative item. Even my 22 mo. old can open the fridge and get cheese or yogurt (to replace a protein) or a piece of fruit from the bowl (to replace a veggie). There are lots of reasons that I don't want to be a short-order cook, not the least of which is that I want to enjoy my dinner while it is hot too. Its one of the few "self care" items that I have made a priority.

If they are simply not hungry, then they can go back to playing until others are finished, as long as they have sat down with us and said grace.

Dessert is a separate "meal" and is not contingent on eating dinner. For us, this eliminates the "ice cream is better than peas" issue because they aren't connected to each other at all.

We have always cooked an enormous variety of food at our house and our kids are pretty good about trying stuff. And they love lots of things that other children don't--the more expensive the better it seems. When they say "I don't like it" and mean "I haven't tried it but it looks funny", that's OK. Maybe next time it will look more familiar and they will go on to try it. I think it probably helped that they see interesting, different food from the time they started solids. My sons favorite veggie as a young toddler was artichokes, and boy were people stunned when they saw him eat one! I've never cooked special for the kids. When they were just starting solids (well, after the one-at-time period), I would just grind up the veggie of the day, so I think they don't expect it.

We don't, however, allow "fits of temper" at any time, and at the table is no exception. I think demanding a different food, throwing a tantrum, or whatever, around food is an issue about that behaviour, not about food per se, and should be dealt with the same way you would deal with them at any other time.

Anyway, that's mealtime at our house, for what its worth.

I think its important for us to respect our children, but it is a two-way street. So, I respect their "I'm full", "I don't like it" or whatever. But they need to respect "Mommy is eating her dinner and you need to do it yourself" as well.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I make dinner and they either eat it or don't.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I think its important for us to respect our children, but it is a two-way street. So, I respect their "I'm full", "I don't like it" or whatever. But they need to respect "Mommy is eating her dinner and you need to do it yourself" as well.

Very, very, very well said


----------



## mommymushbrain (Nov 2, 2002)

I try to incorporate something everyone likes during a meal, along with other things some like and some don't.

I don't force anyone to take any bites... My reasoning is if they see other enjoying said food, they have a good chance of trying it themselves, on their own time and on accord.

A story of my own... I refused to eat pork for the longest time - ANY pork. When I got married, my husband LOVED to eat pork. I would prepare meals for him with his said pork products... within three years of our marriage, I was eating pork again. No one forced me. I figure the same will occur with my children.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

EvanandAnna'smom wrote:

Quote:

Either my DH or myself cooks dinner. We have an almost 2 YO and a 5 YO. Its very important for us to have a family dinner each night, and we all start with the same things on our plates. If either child decided they don't want something, regardless of why or what, they can get an alternative item. Even my 22 mo. old can open the fridge and get cheese or yogurt (to replace a protein) or a piece of fruit from the bowl (to replace a veggie). There are lots of reasons that I don't want to be a short-order cook, not the least of which is that I want to enjoy my dinner while it is hot too. Its one of the few "self care" items that I have made a priority.
That is such a great approach. It seems like the best of everything. You can make a good meal and sit down to it, and the kids have the choice of what they eat.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*

Food is just no biggie in our house.









Edited to add that when I think about it, one of the things that most excited me about leaving home was having control over what I ate and when. Wow, what freedom! Nobody to insist that I liked things that I didnt like, or to control me through food. I don't want my children to have to leave home to feel that sort of freedom and autonomy.









I also went through a huge freedom with food and cooking once I left home. My stepmom was a totaly neat freak - control freak with the kitchen and cooking utensils, and really the whole house. even though I began to be interested in cooking and trying new foods other than the boring bland "meat and potatos" my stepmom served, I absolutely did not feel comfortable making and cooking my food in "her " kitchen. I remember several times, there was an issue and complaining to my DAD because I had the nerve to forget to clean a LEMON SEED out of the sinks drain when I fixed an iced tea. amother time, When I got home from school my Dad informs me that I should never say I'm hungry or starving, becasue that is rude to my step-mom because she might feel "pressure".....








I could go on with examples of this such kind of thing, but you get the idea!
when I bacame a vegetarian at 14 yrs old, they thought I was crazy and told me it was just a phase (17 yrs later, now- still a vegetarian with veg. dh and ds -thats what works for us







) SM then eventually decided she is obligated to make me something different on the side in place of meat, so she doesnt even ask me what I'd like or to go to the grocery store with her to make the choices, she just buys me what she thinks- frozen "tv dinner" type veggie lasagna, and frozen haddoock fish fillets (I ate some fish the first year or so), and other bland food repeated..... SO, of course I began eating out a lot, and eating at my best friends house- where the parents didn't have all those food and control issues- they even let us cook dinner -----what a pleasant experience it was to have fun with food and then enjoy eating it together! to not have to live up to expectations.... but I always had to give SM notice of a day or more, if I was not going to be eating dinner at home a ny particular night, I couldn't just call and say i was held up with something and couldnt make it home for the 5 pm sharp dinner time. Now, that I am a mother, I just do not get all the pressure put around eating they created for me. They made food very unpleasant. And how I knew in no uncertain cicumstance that I was not the one in control.
I therefore made it a point to not have control be an issue concerning food for me or for my son. He is 18 mo.s and nursing pretty frequently on cue so if he doesnt eat a lot of solids that day, I know he is getting all the nutrition he needs from me. I do not agree with scheduled and regimented bf... I do not think that that shows much respect for the child. If ds suddenly nurses cosntantly, I look into other areas of his life an try to understand where that need for comfort is coming from.... like a developmental phase that he is working with, teething, or sickness, then I can better understand the need to take things a little slower and hang out with him as he needs to nurse, put other things on the back burner for the tiem being. I use that time to rest and think....
I try to offer him healthy foods, he goes into the refrigerator or cabinets to choose his food when he is hungry. I heat something up in the toaster oven for a few minutes for him if desired. I don't burden myself with thinking that I am or should control and when he eats. How do you know when a person is hungry if they are saying they are not? If food is always available, dc will help themselves when they need it.
Kids are all too often reminded how they are powerless in many ways. Food should not be about power. I agree with some pp.s that everyone has different tastes, like my ds loves thai and mexican, likes all kinds of foods. He never liked pureed foods, so he was a little late on eating solids compared to other dc, but i didnt worry or force him to eat, or try to put pressure on him- I knew there would come the right time. It was only after we offered him what we ate- fresh, foods with lots of different spices, .. He just didnt want to be fed like a baby.
We all enjoy cooking, recipes from all around the world, different spices. Ds also loves all kinds of foods, but does go through normal toddler pickiness, but when I do not make it an issue, he starts eating a varied diet again. It helps if I let him help, do things like fill the salad bowls with lettuce and veggies, drop something in a pot, etc. He is very eager to cook, so somtimes its hard for him to undderstand that hec an't touch the stuff on the stove.
I will try to never make his diet something to be controled, dissected, and judged. I offer healthy foods in small servings he can eat. We are on a tight budget, so whatver leftovers there may be, somone will eat it for sure. I've just always made more than we eat mostly so we can have leftovers for lunches.
Eating is about much more than vitamins, carbs, and proteins.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Musingmama, I had a wry smile when I read this:

"I couldn't just call and say i was held up with something and couldnt make it home for the 5 pm sharp dinner time."

Ours was 6pm sharp, but I could have written the rest of your post.

Because the 'family dinner time' was such a control issue in my childhood, I strive to make sure that there is no control attached to food now for my children. As a child, I so envied friends who were allowed control over food and their bodies. I wasnt forced to eat things, but we werent even allowed to dish up our own food. I recall for years trying to persuade my mother to put the bowls out and let people dish up what they wanted, and as a result even as an adult now I struggle when food is dished up for me.

I think we also need to distinguish between a child 'pitching a fit' to get an alternative food, and a child making a polite, rational choice to eat something other than what his/her mother might want him to eat at that precise moment. If my children pitch a fit about anything, that is dealt with separately to the issue on hand. They may or may not get what they want - if the fit is because they want to play with a kitchen knife, then no, they wont get what they want. If the fit is because they want a sandwich, then once we've worked through appropriate ways of expressing themselves, they will probably get a sandwich. Although actually, they don't pitch a fit about food, because they know that I am not going to be confrontational about it.

As I said, it's just a non-issue for us. We talk about what is healthy and what tastes good, but I don't praise anyone for eating, nor do I comment if they don't eat.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*

As a child, I so envied friends who were allowed control over food and their bodies. I wasnt forced to eat things, but we werent even allowed to dish up our own food. I recall for years trying to persuade my mother to put the bowls out and let people dish up what they wanted, and as a result even as an adult now I struggle when food is dished up for me.

.

wow! I never realized, I do that too- I always like to put the food on my plate.... weird-
yeah, I have many stories about the food eating control at my dad and stepmom's house!
It was good to escape and really enjoy food!


----------



## chickadee79 (Jan 5, 2005)

So, I just finished reading all these posts. One things that I still have a question about is what do you do when dh and my opinions differ on mealtime? dh is of the "you eat what is put in front of you" mindset, but I would rather make the kids a pb&j if they don't want to eat what I have made for dinner.

Typically I make meals I know the kids like, or have ingredients the kids like, so there usually isn't a problem, but there are times that I try a new recipe. I can understand dh, because there have been a couple times one of the kids said "I don't like this" dh said "try it" and they liked it, it just didn't LOOK good to them, kwim?

I think with how dh and I differ it does have to do with how it was in our homes growing up. My mom would make pb&j if we didn't eat what was on the table. I do remember her encouraging us to finish eating, and I do remember dessert was only for those who ate dinner.

With dh, his family couldn't afford to have that option of making something else for dinner if he didn't like what was on the table. At least that is how I understand it was.

So, I'm not entirely sure where that leaves things. It happens rarely, and I'm ok with a sandwich, but dh isn't.....I do encourage the kids to at least try something before refusing, especially if it is something new, but dh says they must eat it, and if not, they're not allowed anything else until breakfast. I know it has to do with mealtimes when he was younger, but things aren't THAT tight for us.

I don't want to start some big argument with dh or anything, but after reading all these posts, I don't want to force the kids to eat, no one forces me to eat. I'd like the kids to be open to trying new things, but hate the problems/arguments that go along with dinnertime sometimes.

so, next time, do I override dh(not something I want to do,esp in front of kids...united front type thing), but I don't want to keep forcing kids to eat either. any middle ground?


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I wanted to say though that I am as stated "your choices are what's on the table". That is where they are: in bowls on the table. You don't have to put anything you don't want on your plate. You don't have to eat something just because you put it on your plate. Its all up to you.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

About kids not knowing if they like something until they try it...

Sometimes you can tell by the smell that you will not like something. I have never eaten a hot dog, but I tell everyone I don't like them anyway. They smell so bad I know I could not like one. I don't need to take a bite to know this.


----------



## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
If it's not something he usually eats I will cook him something easy like mac & cheese.

i have heard this mentionned several times - what is mac and cheese?


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000*
i have heard this mentionned several times - what is mac and cheese?

For us, it means this: http://www.annies.com/products/deluxe.html
But you can mak it at home from scratch or buy any other number of different brands, Kraft being the most common.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickadee79*
So, I just finished reading all these posts. One things that I still have a question about is what do you do when dh and my opinions differ on mealtime? dh is of the "you eat what is put in front of you" mindset, but I would rather make the kids a pb&j if they don't want to eat what I have made for dinner.

I think it might be best to talk to your dh about this when the kids are NOT present. Tell him you've been thinking about it and you want to respect their bodies and choices and not turn food into a battle ground. Maybe ask him what his purpose is in forcing them to eat something they don't want or go hungry? If it's a control issue, then it has no business at the dinner table.


----------



## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Give your DH something he can't stand for dinner and tell him if he doesn't like it too bad, if he doesn't eat it he can't have anything until breakfast.......

Sorry...feeling a little snarky here but I always try to put myself in my dd shoes. If I wouldn't treat an adult a certain way then I wouldn't do it to her either.


----------



## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

wow this thread is really interesting and i am one of those people who is a little undecided as to what my philosophy is with regard to food but after reading all of your thoughtful posts i have a better idea in my head about what i believe.

with my younger son who is 22 months we are very flexible he didnt really eat anything till he was well over a year, i would say at about 18 months i started realising that he actually was displaying a need for food other than milk, once or twice he was miserable and crying and nothing was working till i offered him a scotch egg which he ate and became much happier.

in the last couple of weeks he has started eating regularly a much bigger variety of foods up till then it was scrambled egg, bananas, anything in bread crumbs (veg grills, fish fingers, chicken breasts) now he eats rice too and will eat any veg that is cut up small in his rice and grated apple. i feel like he is a veritable conniseur oh and of course rice crispies and toast.

sorry probably too much detail!

the things is i always try to give him food i know he likes with a little of something else with it to experiment but i really see food for him as a learning/playing experience and will always throw a few rice crispies or a bana on his high chair tray if he seems to be getting bored before i am finished. he breastfeeds loads anyway so i am really not worried he doesnt get anything sweet apart from at the weekend when we have what we acll weekend food.

with my older son i am a little less sure about the right thing to do. i used to worry if i made dinner and he wouldnt eat it then 15 monutes laer wanted toast even if it was something that i knew he liked and would eat lots of normally. i have now come to the decision that not eating when you are not hungry is actually a very healthy and sensible thing to do! it discourages the idea that food should just be eaten because is is there which i think could lead to overeating as they get older.

what i will do is put his food in the fridge and offer it to him later if he is hungry, but i am still unsure as to weather i should offer him an alternative at dinner time if he isnt eating what i give him.

i want to be respectful of him and his feelings but i also want him to be able to go over to his friends houses after school and share a meal with them without having trouble or feeling uncomfortable. but i guess that has more to do with his in-built personality rather than anything i do.

we used to have to restrict his eating for about 2 hours before he went to bed as i could pretty much guarantee that if he ate in the 2 hour period before going to bed he would wake up and vomit in the night which made life difficult which is why i would try to encourage him to eat as i would worry he would be hungry and i wouldnt want him to eat later because of the vomiting problem, he doesnt seem to do this anymore fortunately.

i guess if i think about it i feel the right thing to do is to let him have a say in what we have for dinner and if he isnt hungry let him have a snack later of his choosing which may or may not be what he was offered for dinner depending on how hungry he is he may just be hungry for something light not a big meal.

i do believe that it is my job to put healthy food in front of my children and that my responsibilty ends there and that they can decide if they are hungry or nto. we dont have deserts in the week as i know my son wel enoguh to know he wouldnt eat dinner and would just eat desert every night as his capacity for easting sweet things is wihtout end, weekends are when we have things like that.

to be honest though i still feel pretty torn as to how to handle food requests and so i hope this thread will continue so i can learn more and work out what it is we believe in and how we deal with it.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

oliversmom wrote:

Quote:

to be honest though i still feel pretty torn as to how to handle food requests and so i hope this thread will continue so i can learn more and work out what it is we believe in and how we deal with it.
Do you mean, how to handle being asked to make something different once you've made dinner?

I think it's a short window of time between the age when a child is old enough to ask for something different, but too young to prepare it themselves. I guess a 3 year old may be in that range.

For me the approach to remember is only keep healthy foods in the house. My son and I both tend to be high metabolism types, and tend to crave sugars if we are overly hungry.

We usually have on hand all Organic: Bagels, cream cheese, oranges, apples, bananas, beans and rice, bean burritos, bread, peanut butter, cheese, and turkey.

With that in the fridge he could easily make himself something substantial. However, he rarely does, because it's easy with one child to just think ahead and put on his plate what he's likely to eat.

Last night I made thai Green Curry chicken and rice. I cook chicken in strips, then put them to simmer in a coconut/ green curry sauce. Before adding chicken to the sauce, I set aside a couple of cooked strips. The sauce is VERY spicy.

I learned from past servings of this meal, that he liked the sauce, but it is too strong for him want it on everything. Lots of people feel that way about green curry. It wasn't any extra work to think "I should set a side a few strips without sauce" and add those to his plate, kwim? He ended up eating the two plain strips plus one soaked strip, and a little sauced rice.

Does that give you some idea's?


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Last night the kids helped me make spinach gnocci. But when it came time to eat it, they thought it looked weird and my older one wouldn't even take a bite. So I cooked up some angel hair for him and he had it with the same sauce as everyone else. It's even faster than mac n cheese!


----------



## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

This has become such an interesting thread, if a bit more heated now and then than is warranted.

I think the control over food issue is one that changes constantly as children grow. An infant refusing fruit puree is obviously different than a toddler refusing peas or an older child negotiating to trade thai chicken for pb&j.

I agree with the mamas who are concerned about being overly controlling, food issues are probably one of the most common sources of psychological angst in our society.

However, I am not at ease with the idea of continuously enabling a child to choose a different meal than the rest of the family either. IMO there needs to be respect on both sides of the counter, both for the child's tastes and for the parent's decision making.

I would never never force a child to eat. If I know a child truly hates a certain food I doubt I'd bother to cook it but if I can hear in the tenor of the child's reaction that it is merely a whim to refuse, I won't play to that. I want my child to understand that the world does not revolve around her, that sometimes we don't get our favorite thing to eat every day, but that we can survive. I want her to understand the difference between eating to satisfy hunger and eating for sheer pleasure and that very often the two overlap but that when they don't it isn't the end of the world.

In our family DH and I share the cooking, we make a wide variety of things. We take requests into account, we tailor spices and sauces to suit individual tastes. We don't knowingly make things someone in the family hates. When we go out to eat we can each order whatever we like. In that way I think we, as parents and providers, are respecting dd's tastes and because we do I think it is fair to expect a measure of respect in return. I do expect her to keep an open mind and to try things just once. I do expect her to be polite if she doesn't like something. If she is I will probably make her something else, if she's not then forget it. If she is just dawdling through dinner I will cajole her to eat as much as she wants in the interest of not having to stay at the table until she is 12 at every meal and so that I don't go through the routine of cleaning everything up and then hearing about how suddenly dd is starving now that the easiest thing is to give her corn flakes.

We don't do dessert on an everyday basis. Dessert is a special treat for us. When it follows a meal, if we aren't hungry enough/willing to eat some (doesn't have to be all) of the nutritious food that is offered, we aren't going to have dessert (this has more to do with controlling blood sugar spikes than controlling behavior - wait, maybe that is the same thing. However you see it, I'm not going to deal with a sugar high and following crash caused by having sugary stuff on an empty stomach.). I think that is reasonable, when I was little it was the same and I feel came out fine.

All in all, all of us mamas, whatever our approach, are doing the best we know and simply by coming here to see what other mamas do shows that we aren't just on autopilot. For that I think we should pat ourselves on the back and then take a deep breath before making the next meal.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I want my child to understand that the world does not revolve around her, that sometimes we don't get our favorite thing to eat every day, but that we can survive.
But I do have my absolute favorite foods every day...

That's why I think it would be unfair for others in my family not to have their favorites too.


----------



## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, that's cool for you and your family. If I only ate my favorite foods I'd be 400 pounds, anemic and have scurvy. We get to eat our favorite foods, we just have to balance our desire for sweets with our physiological need for nutrition. When they happen to coincide, so much the better.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Obviously, everyone does things differently.

I do want to say that my "your choices are on the table" philsophy of feeding has more than just a "healthy" diet as its goal.

It also has a being open to new foods goal, a not being "afraid" you won't find something you like goal.

Thus, the pp's that say that kids will make healthy choices on their own, miss some of the point.

A child can be healthy even if they will eat only five or six different foods, even if they refuse to even look at any others. But that's not the kind of child I'd like to raise.

Studies have shown that just being exposed to foods on a meal table can increase one's preference for a food you didn't originally like.

Tasting food repeatedly actually does make people like foods they did not originally (if they are not foreced to do this.)

In any event, I think people who have never tried to serve one meal to the whole family may not understand it. When give a a wide, but not unlimited nor always the same, variety to choose from at each meal, kids almost alwasy find something they are willing to eat, and become better and more adventerous eaters in the process.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
When give a a wide, but not unlimited nor always the same, variety to choose from at each meal, kids almost alwasy find something they are willing to eat, and become better and more adventerous eaters in the process.


















I just recently started the "your food's on the table, eat it or don't" thing. I serve a protien, two veggies, and a grain, then a fruit for dessert. They can pick and choose what they want to serve themselves from what is on the table. When we have a new food we have a "no thankyou bite" rule as long as the new food isn't totally unfamiliar or made from foods that I know they don't like. I have a pretty good idea of my children's tastes and in most cases that "no thankyou bite" rule results in the child having at least 2nd servings.

The reason that dh and I made this rule is we were tired of buying food to be thrown out. OUr fridge was constantly full of half eaten items that the children changed their minds about half way through etc. We serve 3 meals and 3 snacks a day, always at the same times (I have a home daycare) and the child can either choose to eat or choose to not eat, but I'm not going to fix more snacks and meals than I allready do, and my kitchen needs to stay clean in case I'm inspected so having an "open bar" so to speak just won't work for us.

-Heather


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Why is it important for kids to become adventurous eaters? I can see why it may be important if the family travels a lot and the child is always exposed to new cultures and their foods, but assuming the family stays in one country, why can't the kid just stick to six favorite meals?

I've noticed most of the foods kids tend to stick to are very simple to make and can be found anywhere - boxed macaroni, sandwiches, apples. Any restaurant will be able to prepare this. They are inexpensive to buy and quick to prepare. It's not like the child will be asking for lasagna while the rest of the family has grilled cheese.

Why the assumption that the kid will never learn to like new foods if he doesn't start trying them now? Can't we all learn things later? How many of us here were part of the macaroni-only set while in childhood, and now love to try new things? I'm one of them. Although today I still have a few favorites I like to stick with, I enjoy opportunities to try new restaurants and new cultural foods.

I wonder if this idea that kids MUST be exposed to all kinds of foods is related to other philosophies of learning that say kids MUST learn Spanish and chemistry and algebra all at certain times or they will not be "well-rounded."

It's never too late to learn anything new.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Why is it important for kids to become adventurous eaters?I wonder if this idea that kids MUST be exposed to all kinds of foods is related to other philosophies of learning that say kids MUST learn Spanish and chemistry and algebra all at certain times or they will not be "well-rounded."

It's never too late to learn anything new.


Actually, as far as language is concerned you are just not correct. It is "possible" to learn a language later in life, many do. But only about 2 percent of the population will even be able to become "native speaker quality" in a foriegn language unless they learn it as a child. The reason is biological. Before puberty the brain is not divided and new languages are easily acquired. After puberty the brain divides into halfs and language acquisition becomes much more difficult for almost all people. There is indeed a crucial time to learn language.

Food is not quite the same but yes our family travels a great deal. Plus we eat out at ethnic restaurants alot, have many friends from all over the world who invite us to their homes etc... I think being an adventerous eater makes kids more at ease in many situations nd makes it more likely they will be adventerous eaters as adults.

Its something I want for my kids and feel I have sucessfully instilled it in them. They are never afraid of food. They don't pick at new food suspicioulsy and ask "what's in here". A habit I personally despise (unfairly perhaps but I do) in the non-allergic. They try it and see if they like it. If they don't they, don't worry about it.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

They are never afraid of food. They don't pick at new food suspicioulsy and ask "what's in here". A habit I personally despise (unfairly perhaps but I do) in the non-allergic.
I ate a vegan diet (and not for health reasons, for reasons of personal taste) for 6 months and you bet I asked what was in everything I ate. I think that's something we all have a right to know. I like to know where my food comes from and what's in it, even though my diet is a lot more varied and is not even vegetarian now.

If someone needs to speak a foreign language, he will learn it, regardless of how old he is or how much foreign language exposure he has had. If someone needs to eat a new food, he will eat it. What I've seen is that most people do not need the foods or languages their parents think they need to have, so they resist learning to like them. All people will resist learning something they do not need, whether it's a new food or academic subject.

Maybe a little off topic, but how do the unschoolers here view food choices?


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Why is it important for kids to become adventurous eaters? I can see why it may be important if the family travels a lot and the child is always exposed to new cultures and their foods, but assuming the family stays in one country, why can't the kid just stick to six favorite meals?


For us, there are several reasons this isn't acceptable.
1. We eat away from home frequently. I think it is rude of anyone, including children, to demand or expect a special meal be prepared for them (assuming no life-threatening allergies). Anywhere actually, but especially away from home. I need my children to at least try new foods in these situations and to know the polite way to move forward if they don't like something. I need them not to be afraid of away from home eating because they know that we have a non-threatening, non-scary approach to food and they trust us to be able to get them what they need in any food situation.

2. One of things that my DH and I enjoy most about cooking is trying new recipes. Cooking something new and interesting frequently (at least 1x/wk) is important for me. It was important that I come up with a system that let me do that and still didn't create meal-time battles. I am just not interested in eating the same few things all the time and don't want my children to either. (To review, our system is: everyone gets the same thing to start, can get an approved substitute if desired for any reason.)

3. I believe the research that says that continued exposure to new things makes a child more willing to try that thing, and other things as well. I am interested in raising flexible children, both in food and other parts of life.

4. Our (as in our society) knowledge of what is "healthy" is constantly changing. I figure that the more different things my kids eat (as well as myself), the better shot we have of having actually eaten what is "good for us". Even if we don't know it yet.

5. By serving a really wide variety of stuff, I've found things the kids adore that aren't the standards. The favorite veggie in this family is beets, with artichokes, asparagus, and broccoli not far behind. Favorite protein is tied between crab and shrimp. Not sure that we would have ever gotten to any of that if I had stayed with the standard kids fare.

6. I enjoy food and I want my kids to as well. All kinds of food. And I want dinner time to be a pleasent center to our family life. Thus the need for a compromise situation where the kids have an alternative and thus aren't ever forced to be unpleasent by the food situation.

For us, all of this is important and worth working out a system that seems to (so far) meet everyone's needs and desires for dinner time. As long as other families have worked something out that meets all of their needs and goals, that's great. For those that are still pondering this, maybe some of the approaches here will help.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Actually, as far as language is concerned you are just not correct. It is "possible" to learn a language later in life, many do. But only about 2 percent of the population will even be able to become "native speaker quality" in a foriegn language unless they learn it as a child. The reason is biological. Before puberty the brain is not divided and new languages are easily acquired. After puberty the brain divides into halfs and language acquisition becomes much more difficult for almost all people. There is indeed a crucial time to learn language.

You're misinterpreting the research. There is a critical period for learning a *first* language. There's also a critical time for learning the sounds of a language, so if you aren't exposed to !Kung was an infant or toddler you may never get the tongue click just right. Infants actually use all the sounds of all the world's langauges when they babble, but by 10-12 months the sounds not used in the langauge they hear drop out. However, an adult can actually learn a foreign language much faster than a child, when given equal exposure/teaching, if you compare vocabulary and language facility. The best predictor of second language fluency is first language fluency.

Herer's a quote, from http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/ncrcdsll/epr5.htm. References are included:
"However, experimental research in which children have been compared to adults in second language learning has consistently demonstrated that adolescents and adults perform better than young children under controlled conditions. Even when the method of teaching appears to favor learning in children, they perform less well than do adolescents and adults (e.g., Asher & Price, 1967). "

As far as the two hemispheres of the brain, they exist well before the child is born - that's the basic structure of a human brain. Brains do not "divide into halfs" at puberty - not sure where you got that idea but it's wrong.

Back on the food issue, contrary to maya's statement no one is saying not to put new foods or foods a child doesn't like on the table. We're saying to make sure there are foods a child likes and wants then on that table. Not just foods a child will eat, like bread or whatever, but a food he wants for dinner, like a PB sandwich.

Dar


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Despite my best efforts over the past 10 years, pb and j in our house means white bread and Kraft pb. I've tried and tried with the whole wheat and the organic/natural pb, but it doesn't get eaten. And mac and cheese means Kraft dinner out of a box (or something similar), which is full of crap. I've even tried organic/natural mac and cheese, but they won't eat it. I've tried it all sorts of from scratch ways, and they won't eat it. Believe me, if effort counted, my kids would be the healthiest most adventurous eaters, but unfortunately, it counts for nothing.

So, if you let them get themselves something different, is it while you are all eating, or after? I'm right now making it after for my 10 yo, otherwise the 4yo will follow suit and not eat.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Dar said:


> You're misinterpreting the research. /QUOTE]
> 
> You misread by post. I talked about "native speaker quality" by which I was referrring to the way a native speaker pronounces a language. Even the study you quoted admitted (unhappily it is true) that kids do this better.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
For us, there are several reasons this isn't acceptable.
1. We eat away from home frequently. I think it is rude of anyone, including children, to demand or expect a special meal be prepared for them (assuming no life-threatening allergies). Anywhere actually, but especially away from home. I need my children to at least try new foods in these situations and to know the polite way to move forward if they don't like something. I need them not to be afraid of away from home eating because they know that we have a non-threatening, non-scary approach to food and they trust us to be able to get them what they need in any food situation.

2. One of things that my DH and I enjoy most about cooking is trying new recipes. Cooking something new and interesting frequently (at least 1x/wk) is important for me. It was important that I come up with a system that let me do that and still didn't create meal-time battles. I am just not interested in eating the same few things all the time and don't want my children to either. (To review, our system is: everyone gets the same thing to start, can get an approved substitute if desired for any reason.)

3. I believe the research that says that continued exposure to new things makes a child more willing to try that thing, and other things as well. I am interested in raising flexible children, both in food and other parts of life.

4. Our (as in our society) knowledge of what is "healthy" is constantly changing. I figure that the more different things my kids eat (as well as myself), the better shot we have of having actually eaten what is "good for us". Even if we don't know it yet.

5. By serving a really wide variety of stuff, I've found things the kids adore that aren't the standards. The favorite veggie in this family is beets, with artichokes, asparagus, and broccoli not far behind. Favorite protein is tied between crab and shrimp. Not sure that we would have ever gotten to any of that if I had stayed with the standard kids fare.

6. I enjoy food and I want my kids to as well. All kinds of food. And I want dinner time to be a pleasent center to our family life. Thus the need for a compromise situation where the kids have an alternative and thus aren't ever forced to be unpleasent by the food situation.

For us, all of this is important and worth working out a system that seems to (so far) meet everyone's needs and desires for dinner time. As long as other families have worked something out that meets all of their needs and goals, that's great. For those that are still pondering this, maybe some of the approaches here will help.


----------



## Juniper (Apr 20, 2004)

DS is too young to be dealing w/ these issues yet but what about the concept of waste? I used to be a waitress and it seemed like we threw entire cows away every day.

We eat at extended families a lot & sometimes eat out. What do you do if DC puts a lot on his/her plate and then can't eat it? I guess we could take the plate to go but I want DS to be conscious that it is not okay to just throw away food. I guess it's just a matter of showing him how to put less on his plate and then adding more if he is still hungry?


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
We're saying to make sure there are foods a child likes and wants then on that table. Not just foods a child will eat, like bread or whatever, but a food he wants for dinner, like a PB sandwich.

This is our method. He can have whatever he wants (less his allergens) whenever he wants. I usually ask what he would like, list some choices if he asks what there is, and provide whatever else he wants during the meal. I also serve up "platters" throughout the day with different little choices for snacks. Usually I'll do that with meals, too. If he picks fish sticks, I'll make that and put some carrots and corn chips on the plate, too. Whatever doesn't get eaten goes back in the fridge. Sometimes leftovers get chucked after being refused several times, but the quantities are so small I don't worry about it.

Occassionally, he will binge on a new food--it's a big deal to find something he can eat without allergic reaction--but, I don't worry about that either. He has gone through spells where he will have potato chips for days at a time. And then it passes and he will have bananas and soy yogurt and beans, etc. again. I suspect I would feel the same way if allergies weren't an issue.

I would rather my child be leary of trying new food or even offending people by saying "What's in this? No thank you, I don't care for any." than eat out of obligation or fear in my home.

Watching my bil/sil have power struggle after power struggle with their kids for the last 5 years has solidified my feelings that ALL people should have autonomy over what goes in their mouths.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
Despite my best efforts over the past 10 years, pb and j in our house means white bread and Kraft pb. ...

So, if you let them get themselves something different, is it while you are all eating, or after? I'm right now making it after for my 10 yo, otherwise the 4yo will follow suit and not eat.

I think this points to the importance of starting some habits early, if at all possible. We started with whole grains and natural PB, so its not an issue because they haven't had anything else. Sorry Irish, but I don't have any ideas for how to change after the toddler years.

As for the during or after issue, I vote for during. This keeps everyone together at the table (this is important to us) and avoids any feeling of "punishment" for not liking dinner (being made to wait until everyone else is finished and/or sit alone and eat once everyone else moves on). It also means that I don't have to continue to supervise dinner/food beyond the normal dinnertime--I'm all for solutions that send the right message and don't inconvenience me at the same time! So far, I haven't had a problem with "copy cat" food issues. As long as the alternative is healthy, I'm not sure it would be a problem though. What I don't permit is the eater of alternative dinner to wander around with it like they do with snacks. Its still dinner and they are expected to sit with us until they are done. (Not everyone, just the kids, so they go play after a few minutes of dinner and I finish my wine in peace while chatting with DH.)

As for the waste issue brought up by Juniper, here is what works for us. At home, I dish plates before bringing them to the table -- not as a matter of control, because they don't have to eat what I put there -- simply as a way to minimize dishes and to avoid toddler reaching into hot food. It also allows me to cool the kid's food while keeping DH's and mine hot. I put out small portions and then do more if requested. Portions are small enough that I don't mind discarding them, or giving to the dog. That amount of waste doesn't bother me, I guess. When we are eating out and portions aren't controlled, then I coach DS into taking "just a little to try" at first, then getting more if he likes it. What isn't dished onto plates at home ends up being packed into adult lunches the next day, so I don't feel like there is any substantial waste. Frankly, if what I put on the kids plates was expensive and they didn't eat it, that goes into lunches as well. Not that this is an issue often -- if it was expensive, they seem to like it better.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

maya43 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> ...


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juniper*
DS is too young to be dealing w/ these issues yet but what about the concept of waste? I used to be a waitress and it seemed like we threw entire cows away every day.

We eat at extended families a lot & sometimes eat out. What do you do if DC puts a lot on his/her plate and then can't eat it? I guess we could take the plate to go but I want DS to be conscious that it is not okay to just throw away food. I guess it's just a matter of showing him how to put less on his plate and then adding more if he is still hungry?

I think it's much more wasteful to force a child to finish food he does not want than it is to throw the food to the chickens. (Or dog, cat, etc.) In our house food is just as much for pleasure as it is for survival, and if there is no more pleasure to be derived from the food, it's time to stop eating it.

In a restaurant, getting a to-go bag is not throwing it out, it's saving it for later. Nothing wrong with that; a lot of the food we cook at home gets saved for later too. Restaurant portions are often very large; not all people can finish them. I end up taking something home almost every time I go out, and then it's a special treat for the next day.

The only problem in our house is that when dh cooks, he makes way too much food and then it ends up being forgotten. So he's working on making less food.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

You can offer your child food from every culture, right from the start, without being coercive.

The debate here is not between mac and cheese and pad thai noodles.

The debate here is whether, after refusing the pad thai noodles, you let your child eat the mac and cheese.

IMO every reason given so far to justify coercion at the table seems entirely focused on the parent's benefit. And by coercion I am mean *insisting* the child eat what is on the table, or go hungry. I still haven't read a single reason why the child will be in any way compromised, harmed, or damaged because they aren't gnoshing cuisine in 27 countries without complaint. That is truly about the parent's aesthetic preferences. There is no nutrional difference for the child.

I'm sure everyone in this thread loves their children, and thinks their way is best.

It does seem to come down to a parent who view a child's request for familiar foods as:

1. Natural, positive, easily accomodated, and easily broadened when the child is ready

or

2. Demanding, uncooperative, and/or disrespectful of the parent's effort and/or authority

or

3. An early symptom of what later will be full blown panic attacks while dining in a Tokyo sushi bar, if not addressed now, at the dinner table, before the child can even spell "Tokyo sushi bar"!















I am almost teasing with #3. But reading some posts here, I'm wondering...


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think that what you may not understand is that for most people who use the "on the table" method, kids are not looking for an alternative, they know and feel secure that they will find "something" there that they like, even if its not a favorite.

They don't say "can I have a pb and j instead" It just wouldn't occur to them anymore than it would occur to my dh.

My kids are happy and healthy with this method. Not fearing food is important to me.


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)




----------



## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

Still agree with maya and evan & anna and farmermama!

We don't 'insist' on DD eating anything. She never leaves the table hungry. Meals are enjoyable. She's not 'coerced' into eating (OCCASIONALLY she's _encouraged_ to try something or to eat some more veg. if she's got involved in telling us something about her day and is forgetting to eat - but even this doesn't happen often). Emma doesn't ask for alternatives. Maybe if she did, I'd say yes, but it just doesn't happen.

I wonder perhaps if those of you who are arguing that maya et al's approach is wrong are 'seeing' something other than what is actually happening in our homes. Our meals are happy and relaxed. Emma has a wonderful relationship with food (I wish mine were as good) and food is not a control issue at all (and we certainly have some issues that ARE control issues







).

My list of regularly made (and enjoyed) dinner foods is about 50 different dishes. If my DC will only eat 5 or 6 of those, it will put a real limit on planning, buying and cooking food. Some meals are very much seasonally based, so we eat them quite frequently when the ingredients are available and cheap.

I'm really pleased with how our approach to food is working. Now if someone can tell me how I can deal with my frustration and anger at the untidiness of her room and her inability to put her things away when she's finished using them (to avoid them being lost or broken/damaged), then I will be forever grateful







.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Not fearing food is important to me.









: Huh? How did we get into "fear" all of the sudden? No one has said anything about "fearing" foods - just about not wanting to eat them.








<---- Not scary. Just don't want to eat him.

And yes, this is my first foray into the smilies. They just seemed right...

Dar


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

How do those who love to cook see the issue?

When I've spent an hour or more preparing a dinner, and someone in my family asks for something completely different, I see it as an opportunity and not a chore. I love cooking, especially for others. When I lived alone I ate boxed macaroni, frozen pizza and lunchmeat. When I live with others, we all eat well. I love making 3 or 4 dishes simultaneously, halving one recipie while doubling another and still keeping track of everything, putting two things at once into the oven that each have to cook at different times and different temps and coming up with a way to make it all come out perfect regardless...wow! It's just a field day for me!

One of the reasons I want to be a SAHM even when the kids are old enough to be in school is so I can spend a large part of my day making little snack trays for them and any friends they might bring over. The more friends they have, the more different snacks I can make.

If I did not particularly enjoy cooking, maybe I would look at this issue differently.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How do those who love to cook see the issue?

This is a very good point! I think one of the reasons that i don't see that much difference between "you can have anything on the table" and "you can have anything in the house" is that I do like to cook. I always view guests with different tastes as a challenge to relish.

But also, as we go through pages and pages of this thread, I am seeing less and less difference between the two positions, even as people taking them become increasingly polarized. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me whether my son will eat the food on the table or wants something else in the fridge, everything in our house is pretty good for him to eat. I do see, because of things people have written here, that this is a privileged position that comes out of never having lacked food. I could see limiting my child's food choices if we didn't have enough food. Food waste does bother me, but I have gotten pretty good at managing leftovers so that things don't get wasted.

I do think that having a child with an adventurous palate is a matter of what we provide in the house as a whole, not only what is on the table at dinner time. (Though FullCream I am so impressed that you have a repetoire of 50 meals! it makes me want to list out all the meals I make to find out if I have that many!)

One friend of mine who was a mom many years before I was, a natural healer, said that children are naturally curious about bitter and sour flavors. She would leave herbal medicine for her toddler, saying, "Here is some medicine for you, it's really bitter, come take some when you want to try it" and her toddler would come and take it. Even though children are really sensitive to taste, they can enjoy a wide range of flavors. I have used this with older children, saying, "this dish is quite sour, do you like to try sour foods?" and they usually say, "Yes, I will try it."


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullCream*
S
I wonder perhaps if those of you who are arguing that maya et al's approach is wrong are 'seeing' something other than what is actually happening in our homes. Our meals are happy and relaxed. Emma has a wonderful relationship with food (I wish mine were as good) and food is not a control issue at all :t

\


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How do those who love to cook see the issue?

Well, I would put myself in that category. Which is why it is important that my kids enjoy their food and be willing to try new foods. And because I often spend a fair amount of time cooking dinner, I don't want to get up and cook something else the minute they say "I don't want this" -- I want to enjoy the fruits of my labors, not make something else while mine gets cold. These days I do avoid things that I can pretty well predict the kids won't like, just because it doesn't seem worth the effort if no one will enjoy it. But I also try new things all the time, and sometimes they are a hit and sometimes they aren't. Hense, back to the "present it so they can be exposed to it, allow an alternative if they chose" idea. I never make them try it, even it if did take 3 hours of work to prepare! But I would never coerce them into eating anything.

Somehow I get the feeling that people are getting the impression that its either "coerce" new foods or always cook familiar foods. It really doesn't have to be that way. It is possible to have kids who willingly try new things, without the hint of coercion, or pleading, or anything. I think part of that is that they know that if they don't like it, they can say so. Some of it is that, if they don't even like the look or smell of it, I'm not going to be unpleasant about it. I never make a fuss if they say "I'd rather have some yogurt" and take care of it. Very easy, all the way around.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I wonder perhaps if those of you who are arguing that maya et al's approach is wrong are 'seeing' something other than what is actually happening in our homes. Our meals are happy and relaxed.
I only know what is posted here.

I realize you are saying because of this approach, your children never ask for anything that isn't on the table.

I suppose the question is, why is that a good thing?

Again, I just do not see the reasoning behind the limitation to what is on the table.

It is like being a key keeper for the pantry.

The kids have to go through the parent to get to the food.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

It is possible to have kids who willingly try new things, without the hint of coercion, or pleading, or anything. I think part of that is that they know that if they don't like it, they can say so. Some of it is that, if they don't even like the look or smell of it, I'm not going to be unpleasant about it. I never make a fuss if they say "I'd rather have some yogurt" and take care of it. Very easy, all the way around.
I don't think you realize that some people here are saying, if the child doesn't want to eat what's on the table, they won't be given yogurt either. Unless it's already on the table.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I just want to add that we aren't playing musical chairs when we eat either.

I agree that if everyone likes what is on the table, there's no motivation to get something different.

But if that's the case, and everyone likes what is on the table, there's no need to limit kids to what is on the table.

It's makes no sense to have the rule at all, or even the thought of the rule. It would be totally unnecessary.


----------



## yogamama (Nov 19, 2001)

I treat different kids differently. My 5 year old will avoid healthy foods if he knows that sweets are available (I don't make sweets available all the time!)

I don't make my kids eat certain foods, but I do expect them to eat at mealtimes if I offer foods that I know they like. I make two veggies and I expect at least one to be eaten - I'll ask my 5 year old, "do you want carrots, broccoli, or a little bit of both?"

He is a kid who doesn't like sauce or foods mixed together - so I keep plain foods off to the side for him as I cook - plain chicken, plain pasta, plain veggies, etc.

My new pet peeve is if he ASKS for a specific food, I prepare it and then he doesn't eat it. Then I won't make something else.

Also, today he made himself a sandwich, but he kept adding stuff to it. I finally limited the size of the sandwich and I told him that I expected him to eat if. Of course halfway thru it, he is done. I told him to put it in a baggie in the fridge and later at snack time I brought it back out. Grrrr. Still, I didn't force him to eat it, but we sort of compromised and he ate the insides and tossed the bread.

Whatever, I'm not going to fight about food, but I do expect kids to be respectful about the people who grow, prepare and serve food and the people that they are eating with.


----------



## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Her studies also show that people who are not given a chance to let go of "safe foods" in childhood often become people who are afraid of new foods as adults (Interetingly the same thing happens when children are forced to eat a food, rather than being told that it is their choice.)
I believe it it my job as a parent to help my kids expand their palate.

ITA. My mom didn't "make" us try new foods. She always gave us our comfort foods. We never tried anything new. We are all VERY picky eaters. I resent the fact my mom didn't try harder to have us try new things.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I only know what is posted here.

I realize you are saying because of this approach, your children never ask for anything that isn't on the table.

I suppose the question is, why is that a good thing?

Again, I just do not see the reasoning behind the limitation to what is on the table.

It is like being a key keeper for the pantry.

The kids have to go through the parent to get to the food.











exactly
yes, I want my ds to be invloved with choosing and making foods, he is very interested in cooking, as me and dh are, so it is a family thing naturally
I think its a good point, too, of whether you enjoy cooking. I enjoy making varied meals, and having varied leftovers to heat up in case the first meal is just picked at a little. we don't waste food, we just don't limit the choices to what me or dh decides is "for dinner" that night. healthy leftovers and snacks aren't timeconsuming to heat up. whats the big deal? I grew up with dinnertime being about control and pressure, not going to do that with my dc








I've watched some friends who have always urged "one more piece of broccoli" or two pieces of quesidilla, etc . and limit and choose everything go throguh a lot of power struggles with their dd, who is now 5 and have stomach aches and doesnt want to eat much.
Kids need to feel they have the respect to make choices of waht they eat, when they eat- If done from birth and surrounded by natural foods, I have seen that they will naturally choose healthy foods, and have well rounded weeks, and try new foods from all kinds of places in the world. it doesnt have to be a big deal. We dont need to nitpick every decison of theirs.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I don't really like to cook.

But, heating up a can of beans and some leftover rice is not that big a deal. Nor is steaming a small portion of veggies.

Heartmama said it all--if there are no limits and controls, then why are there limits and controls? Just because the children don't ask for something outside the limits, doesn't mean the limits aren't there. And it seems that if those children DID ask, they would be denied food. That seems wrong to me. If we've got it in the house, people are welcome to it.

Also, there seems to be a false dichotomy being set up that people who don't offer alternatives have adventerous eaters, and those that do offer alternatives have picky eaters. That is not the truth.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
ITA. My mom didn't "make" us try new foods. She always gave us our comfort foods. We never tried anything new. We are all VERY picky eaters. I resent the fact my mom didn't try harder to have us try new things.

I don't think it's too late for you to try new foods now. My mom made very bland dinners, and almost all of them included meat. Her one non-meat dinner was fish







and her macaroni and cottage cheese casserole. i liked everything she made. As an adult, I eat very few of the meals my mom made. I learned to like eggplant, beets and kale. She made mostly frozen vegetables, I eat mostly fresh. I eat spicy foods, including Indian food which my mom doesn't like. I eat whole grains, she complains that they are brown, etc. etc. Most of the new foods that I have tried I have learned to make myself from cookbooks.

I'm just saying, it's never too late to try new and tasty things.

BTW, my mom made dinner and we never asked her for anything that wasn't on the table. It just wasn't part of our protocol. I think we refused food a bit--my mom isn't a great cook--and ewwww, the veal meatloaf with mushrooms she learned to make from The Diet Workshop







. But the rest of the fridge looked like that too, so what would have been the point of asking for something different? :LOL


----------



## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

My dh's Mother was not much of a cook. Hot dogs, Campbells Soup, grilled cheese sandwiches, tuna. Her specialty was roasted potatoes, which she was excellent at, but the meat she cooked with it would be SO dry, it would turn to dust.

My dh is super picky now. His menu was so limited as a child, he's content with only two or three dinner choices for weeks at a time.

But he doesn't eat any of the things his mother used to cook. INstead he eats salads and stir-frys.

My kids eat what I put out, mostly. If they hate it, they have a sandwich or fix themselves something. However, we don't waste food, can't afford to. If they ask for or make themsleves something, I expect them to eat it, or we won't do that the next time.


----------



## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
I'm just saying, it's never too late to try new and tasty things.

You make is sound so easy. It isn't. Those attitudes & fears of trying new foods carry over & are hard to over come. It is just easier to eat what I am familiar with & is comfortable.


----------



## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
You make is sound so easy. It isn't. Those attitudes & fears of trying new foods carry over & are hard to over come. It is just easier to eat what I am familiar with & is comfortable.

I agree that having those attitudes about trying new foods are tough to get over, but sometimes you can. I was only able to do so for myself when I got older. I realized there was more to hamburger than spagetti sauce! And brussel sprouts don't have to taste bad.
My mom had a set of recipes she always made. She never really veered from this list when I was growning up. We were really never exposed to new foods. Just the same ole thing. And we were supposed to clean our plates.
(side note- my whole family struggles with weight problems... Makes you wonder?)
So now with our dd (24mo), my husband cooks most of the time, and he is a chef with no fear. He'll make just about anything, and makes it so well, that it is an adventure to eat. I am far worse at convincing to eat new things than our dd. I believed eggs shouldn't be sweet (like custards) but he got me over that. My dd doesn't fuss about what is put in front of her. If she likes it, she'll eat it. If she doesn't she leaves the table of her own accord. We never say eat it or try it. We let her decide, and mostly , she'll try anything and make up her mind. Also, when we serve her something new, we only give a little bit, then if she likes it, we'll giver her more.
From my eating history, I worry that she isn't eating, and sometimes she will wake in the middle of the night asking to eat.
So I always ask her if she wants (xyz one of her favs) and she says no. Then I go and make it, like pb&j, and she eats it even though she said no. We also have a tub of pasta in the fridge at all times for backup.
Does that seem like forcing her to eat? And when she gets up to eat in the middle of the night, I get her a piece of fruit and some milk. Nothing more.
I just don't want her to be hungry. Maybe its me.


----------



## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans*
I agree that having those attitudes about trying new foods are tough to get over, but sometimes you can.

Which is why I try to get my kids to try new things. MAny times they have liked it, even though they said it looked yucky.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

my son is 22months and he rarely eats. Really. It sucks. It makes me crazy. It makes me break dishes and cry! He MAY eat one meal a day. I try to give him whatever he wants and I offer him option after option. But, as of late, I've just stopped trying to feed him. It's sad and it makes me soooo mad that he doesn't want to thrive. He just wants to nurse. ugh.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
You make is sound so easy. It isn't. Those attitudes & fears of trying new foods carry over & are hard to over come. It is just easier to eat what I am familiar with & is comfortable.

I'm sorry.









I often wish my mom had been a better cook and less worried about weight issues, so that I wouldn't have such a troubled relationship with food myself.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sun-shine01*
Sorry to highjack the the post but my dd will refuse to eat almost ANYTHING for the evening meal - even things that she LOVES - instead she only wants to nurse about every 15 minutes for the rest of the evening and we/she satys up late so like every 15 minutes for 4 hours. She just turned 2. I don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to deny her nursing but I'm just about to loose my mind over the evening marathon nursing. I offer snacks and drinks all evening but she only wants the "Num Nums" Any advice greatly appreciate.


YES- That's my son too! He's 22months. Advice appreciated for sure! Well, actually Bay doesn't eat ANY meal ANY time of the day.


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

I should add that I cook new recipes all the time and ask my son to taste them. Sometimes it works and he loves the food other times he won't touch it and starts gagging. Newest thing he ate was a tamale, suprised me since he was anti-corn anything.

He also asks for my food. So if I have something that he turned his nose of to 3 minutes before and comes to me saying Ohhh yummy I happily give it to him in small pieces. Small works real well with my son for some reason. He also likes homemade foods better then prepared foods. He will eat my cream spinach but not touch store bought cream spinach. I also use lots of flavors, seasonings, spicies. I made a horseradish dip and my son loved it, go figure.

I totally believe it offering new foods all the time. Doesn't matter if they eat them but just to know hey here is another opition/flavor you might like.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I would trust that your child knows what he needs. Lots of kids with food allergies will behave this way. It's not that unusual and when he is ready he'll probably eat fine.


----------



## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

vegiemom, Could it be that your child is getting teeth? My dd was very affected by teeth and wouldn't eat much at all when she went through that. It was 2 full years of it. She also has food sensitivities so she picks and chooses what she wants.

I think my dd's problem to some degree is that I am not adventurous in my cooking and have a blah attitude about food. I don't love to eat. Also, since I became pg, I have really started to sympathize with her pickiness as I could tell just from a smell that I wouldn't like something. She has a strong sense of smell so I wouldn't doubt if that has something to do with it.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

How do those who love to cook see the issue?
I LOVE to cook. I get great enjoyment from cooking. I find it relaxing and fun. However I also work FT out of the house. I plan my meals in advance to make things easier but after getting home and then spending 45 minutes or so re-connecting with my son I don't have a lot of time.

That said I am not a short order cook. We have family meals at least 5 days a week if not more where we all sit down together. I make one meal for all us. My son knows he doesn't have to eat if he doesn't want to but he is expected to join us. Its great ritual and illustrates to him that meals times are more than just about eating.

I am not an ogre though. I take all of our likes (and dislikes) into consideration. We eat lots and lots of "new" foods (meaning new to our 3 yo) but part of the meal always includes a tried and true favorite, even if it's just bread and butter or rice. All new foods would be just too scary!

They say it takes a toddler about 7 or 8 times before they really taste and like something. The first couple of times they may just look at it. Then they might actually put into their mouths (and declare it yucky) and finally progressing to actually eating the item. The key is I never push, never insist on one more bite, never reward. Basically we don't even talk about it at all.

So what do I do if he refuses to eat? Nothing. I know he won't starve. If he is hungry later on he can have a healthy snack. I treat snacks like a meal. They are a way to balance out the day/weeks nutrition.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

It is just easier to eat what I am familiar with & is comfortable.
What's wrong with that? I'm assuming you live in a place where food is plentiful and you are able to choose what you eat each day. Why is it a problem to have a few old favorites rather than an ever-expanding array of foods?

Even in many other countries one may travel to, you can find standard favorites of American diets.

Not all people are meant to eat varied diets that include many "new" foods. Some are meant to stick with what works; some are meant to continuously expand.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Dd and ds do not have to eat anything they don't want to eat.

That said, I make one meal. If they are hungry, they eat it, if they don't they don't. They are good eaters and eat what we eat. If I make something new for dinner or something they don't like as much, I give them a small portion of that with the rest of the meal. I find this encourages them to try it (as opposed to staring at a whole bowl of something they've never seen or hate, then they get balky) and also sort of sends the message that things change and we eat new things sometimes, no biggie.

If they want to get down from the table, they may. They may come back up to their chairs if they decide they are hungry after all (which happens sometimes). I don't enforce a strict rule like they get one chance or something. But once the meal is over, it's over - plates get cleared.

fyi... I can count on one hand the number of times either of them has actually skipped a meal and it was because they were sick.


----------



## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
What's wrong with that? I'm assuming you live in a place where food is plentiful and you are able to choose what you eat each day. Why is it a problem to have a few old favorites rather than an ever-expanding array of foods?

Because I eat in other places than my own home. I dread eating at other peoples houses. I know it is offensive when I say I don't like it.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*

Also, there seems to be a false dichotomy being set up that people who don't offer alternatives have adventerous eaters, and those that do offer alternatives have picky eaters. That is not the truth.

thats what it is seeming like to mean as i read, too...
I think a lot of it is the individual tastes of the child, which can be encouraged by offering lots of kinds and tastes of foods, but somtimes people are just picky no matter what they are exposed to. I dont think that parents have as much control as they'd like to think about creating adventurous eaters.
My ds eats a wide variety of foods, which I enjoy, too. We eat a lot of ethnic foods. I grew up with bland meat and potatoes, and the same foods every week, spaghetti was the one thing i liked. It did take a lot of trying, but gradually I got experiemental with my eating, and now I eat a vegetarian diet and LOVE Indian, thai, mexican, vietnamese, chinese foods..... I love spicy flavorful foods.... I never eat what I was raised on, other than pasta and salads. So, by the logic that you can create an adventurous eater by offering varied choices, then a picky eater could be created by not offering varied tastes and foods. But I did not become a picky eater.
I don't feel like parents can determine the tastes of their children, but they can make healthy foods available and the dc can choose what they like, without judgement. I just don't think there should be praise or criticism. Eating should be about sharing pleasant experiences, and for that IMO, you need to be able to choose what and when and how much you'd like to eat. I treat children that same way. Just because they are young doesnt automatically mean that they will be reckless with their choices. I think they also fill the subconcious expectation of their parent....


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

There isn't a reliable way of knowing how things would have been if your parents made you try new foods. Maybe you would be well-rounded and adventurous, always looking forward to new foods and able to find anything you like in any restaurant, or maybe you would be stubborn, with an eating disorder, and eat boxed macaroni every night.

When I'm a guest in someone's house I'm always asked what I would like to eat. Usually I'm expected to bring something I made, too.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm one of those "listen to your body" folks. I think often, when a child doesn't want to eat something, it's because his body is telling him not to. Perhaps he's sensitive to that food, or not ready to digest it, or allergic... whatever.

I'vBoth Rain and I tend to go on food "binges" - periods of days or weeks when we crave a certain food and eat a lot of it. I just got off an avocado binge - just had to have one or two a day for a couple of weeks. Now I'm over it, pretty much. I still like them but I don't crave them.

Rain is in the middle of an OJ binge. She normally is a very occasional OJ drinker, maybe once every month or two, but for the past couple of weeks she's gone through 3 or 4 glasses a day. I believe her body needs something in OJ. Denying her OJ because it wasn't on the dinner menu would mean denying her something her body is clearly saying that it needs - vitamin C, maybe, or maybe something else. I don't need to figure it out, I just need to let her listen to her own body.

Dar


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Dar and others, I think the point about cravings being valid indicators of nutritional need (and food aversions being indicators of allergy) is a good one. I also try to incorporate my kids' changing food cravings/aversions into meal planning when appropriate/possible.

I think where this gets tricky though is when you have a kid who just wants buttered noodles all the time, kwim? I know SO many kids like this. It never ends up being a phase, but a serious long-term issue with trying new things and shunning numerous healthy foods like fruits and more often vegetables. You could have the worst food allergy in the world and you still need to eat something more than buttered noodles for weeks on end.

So while I would pay attention to my kids' food fixations and do breakfasts that included bananas for a while if that's what they were really into (in fact, my dd just got off of a serious banana bender, where she ate 1-2 a day for a week LOL!), I would be careful about letting that transgress into "I want buttered toast for breakfast.... and nothing else.... ever." (and they eat nothing but crackers and pasta and bread all day after that, no less) Furthermore, just because dd was really into bananas, didn't mean she just ate bananas for breakfast and that was it. She got bananas sliced onto her oatmeal... bananas sliced into yogurt... bananas sliced on the side.... etc. etc.

I hope this makes sense but I'm not sure I'm explaining it well.


----------



## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

It seems, unfortunately, that many times, the foods that kids want are foods that aren't very healthy for them. To me, macaroni and cheese is a classic example. (also, cereal filled with high fructose corn syrup and food coloring, potato chips, white bread, store bought cookies, "fruit" drinks; "fruit" snacks, commercial peanut butter, and on and on).

I think it is natural for kids to prefer those foods; they were designed in chemical labs and corporate "kitchens" to taste good to people.

I think that if the alternative is a healthy and relatively "complete" then that is one thing. But I think often, the alternatives are not healthy.

I personally think it is a mistake to even have a lot of that stuff in the house to begin with. Once they hae it, it is what they prefer. But if it isn't there, then they'll eat waht is there,and develop a taste for the better stuff.

In my household, my parents told me to have at least a bite of everything they served (or, if in a restaurant, everything I ordered). And they served all kinds of stuff, japanese (including sushi), etc. If I didn't like it I didn't have to eat it, but I had to try it. I grew up with a very adventurous palate, and will eat almost everything. Of course I have preferences, but generally, I will eat most things.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Periwinkle: I think you explained that very well. And I totally agree with what you are saying.

I also think I am more flexible with cravings and with what my son is craving if you KWIM. It easier to give into a craving like bananas (or any other nutrient rich item) 'cause you can do so much with those kinds of items just like you said. Add them to other foods, etc. When my son craves something he still eats other foods too and often his cravings lead him to new tastes. He learned to like Szechwan beef w/ green beans when he was on a green bean kick.

I also believe a craving is your bodies way of telling you need something. But I'm sorry, unlike some other posters, I think refusing to eat anything but bananas or pasta w/ butter or chicken fingers is not a craving. That is just a sign that there is a power struggle going on. Eating is one thing that a child can control. That is why we try to live by the adage that it is my job to provide healthy and balanced meals and snack. It is my son's job to eat or not to eat. No bribing, cajoling, rewarding, praise or punishment. Does that mean if he wants noodle he can never have them?? Of course not but I will offer them in different ways and/or as part of the meal. If he chooses to just eat the noodles, fine, but on the day he wants something else, which will eventually happen, there will be other food on the table.

My best friend's son will not eat anything for her other than plain pasta w/ butter (will NOT eat whole wheat noodles), Annie's orange Mac n cheese and chicken fingers. Occasionally pizza. It is a huge struggle for her. And she gives in. A lot. Which I think just reinforces the problem. However whenever he is my house he eats what ever I give him so she know he will gladly eat other food.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think it only becomes an issue when the parents make it one. It's not kids that decide "I'm going to eat noodles forever," it's the parents who say "Oh, no! He's only going to eat noodles, and nothing else, forever!" And then it becomes a power struggle.

If kids want noodles, give them noodles! You can buy fortified kinds, and give vitamin supplements on the side.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaveTheWild*
In my household, my parents told me to have at least a bite of everything they served (or, if in a restaurant, everything I ordered). And they served all kinds of stuff, japanese (including sushi), etc. If I didn't like it I didn't have to eat it, but I had to try it.

But what happened when you didn't eat a bite? I think this is where I start having a real problem with the "required to do X" approach? I've never yet met a child that didn't, at least now and then, say "no" to whatever the expectation is. (OK, everyone will now say that they have perfect angels who always follow their parents expectations. And I'll say, "...Yeah... riiiiightttt")

If there is a one bite rule or a try everything on your plate rule, then you have to be prepared with what to do when they test the rule. Growing up this became a battle or epic proportions a few times. I've detailed these consequences in other threads and been accused of going for sympathy, so I won't do it again. But what do you do when a child doesn't follow directions? My husband wanted a "one bite" rule and we couldn't come up with a reasonable answer to what to do if they didn't obey it. I'm not interested in forcing a child to eat, to keeping them at the table, to feeding them the same bite until they eat it a day later, to deny dessert (because then you have bad food and good food), to taking away something totally unrelated to food doesn't seem to make sense. So what DO you do?


----------



## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
But what happened when you didn't eat a bite? I think this is where I start having a real problem with the "required to do X" approach? I've never yet met a child that didn't, at least now and then, say "no" to whatever the expectation is.

To be honest, I don't remember. There was no real punishment that I can recall, because I think, since that was the general "rule", we just got used to it, and it became the norm for us to at least try whatever it was. (I am sure the few times we outright refused they weren't pleased, but I don't rememebr it ever being a big issue, honestly. they probably just moved on, and didn't make it into a big scene).

My parents were also really, really conscious to never bad-mouth any foods. They voewd to eachother never to say that some kind of food was "gross", etc. and to praise the foods they did eat ("mmm, isn't this miso soup and tofu good?" "Oh, I just love seaweed..." I think that worked out really well, because I think many kids adopt from their parent's the idea that certain foods are "gross". I do remember occasionally doing the "kid" thing, where you put it in your mouth and spit it out, as though it is terrible, even though I never really had it in my mouth long enough to taste whether it was bad or good, but that was not the norm.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
my son is 22months and he rarely eats. Really. It sucks. It makes me crazy. It makes me break dishes and cry! He MAY eat one meal a day. I try to give him whatever he wants and I offer him option after option. But, as of late, I've just stopped trying to feed him. It's sad and it makes me soooo mad that he doesn't want to thrive. He just wants to nurse. ugh.

He IS thriving. On your breastmilk.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When I was nursing my 18-month-old only once a day, I was told (by the WIC office, no less!) that it was all she needed; that when you only nurse once a day the milk is thick, yellow and super-concentrated and if you nurse several times a day it's thinner. So any food she ate during the day was just bonus material; the breastmilk would fill in all the missing nutrients.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

If kids want noodles, give them noodles! You can buy fortified kinds, and give vitamin supplements on the side.
I think there's something about this that doesn't sit right with me. And again, so we're on the same page, we're not talking about a passing craving for noodles, but a long-term eating pattern of eating nothing but cereal for breakfast and noodles for lunch and dinner because, well, he can and he wants it.

I'd have to agree with another poster than you don't just serve mac n cheese day in day out. You put other things on the plate. We do that and it works really well (though we're fostering good eating habits not correcting bad ones, so I guess it could work differently as a corrective measure). Just SEEING other things on the plate I'd have to imagine would send a message.

I also agree that my children don't have to eat anything they don't want to. To show you how seriously we consider this... We serve dessert sometimes, others we don't. Sometimes it's applesauce or fruit or whole wheat graham crackers, more rarely it's ice cream or pudding or cake. When supper is over, we offer dessert if we happen to be having it that night. We ask "Are you full or would you like dessert?" Believe it or not, we get "I'm full" as often as we get an excited response to the D-word.







And if they decide they want dessert, we serve it, _whether or not they have finished their dinner_. I never force or cajole dd and ds to eat, and I believe making them finish their stewed tomatoes before they get ice cream does nothing but a) reward them with food (something I am trying very hard not to do) and b)reinforce that stewed tomatoes must be really, really awful because say ds just didn't feel like tomatoes that night, well now I make a big stink out of his not eating them and maybe now instead of it being a fluke, he starts to think there must be a very good reason he didn't eat them.... ah ha! because he doesn't like them!

So no, making my children eat a bite of this or that isn't something I want to do (and likewise, I don't congratulate them for finishing their meal), but I still meet the responsibility of providing them with a varied, nutritious diet.

I think it IS important to offer something other than noodles, and I also think assuming that your child can get the nutrients he needs by artificial supplements is naive at best and dangerous at worst. Throughout human evolution, we have received our nutrients from food. Not every single nutrient all at once (synthetic or altered no less) in pill form. I think the bioavailability of supplements is highly questionable.

Besides, shouldn't the long term goal be fostering healthy eating habits? Surely we can all agree that eating pasta alone (whether or not "fortified") in no way supplies the necessary nutrients for a growing child, teenager, adult, pregnant woman, elderly person... Where does it end? At what point do you say, my child's *needs* are not being met even if her day-to-day *wants* are... and I need to DO something about that today.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

My best friend's son will not eat anything for her other than plain pasta w/ butter (will NOT eat whole wheat noodles), Annie's orange Mac n cheese and chicken fingers. Occasionally pizza. It is a huge struggle for her. And she gives in. A lot. Which I think just reinforces the problem. However whenever he is my house he eats what ever I give him so she know he will gladly eat other food.
I just want to say that this sounds like a huge power struggle is going on over food.

That is not at all what I have dealt with, even though my son knows he won't be forced to eat nor limited to what's on the table. Yes we have gone through some "picky" phases, but nothing that was not resolved with extra thought and attention given to the issue.

No child is a robot. You can talk to them, guide them, encourage them in new ways.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Besides, shouldn't the long term goal be fostering healthy eating habits? Surely we can all agree that eating pasta alone (whether or not "fortified") in no way supplies the necessary nutrients for a growing child, teenager, adult, pregnant woman, elderly person... Where does it end? At what point do you say, my child's needs are not being met even if her day-to-day wants are... and I need to DO something about that today.
Of course a diet of ONLY plain noodles for every single blessed meal and snack for a month would be nutrionally weak.

I guess I am startled/perplexed at who here has a child so out of tune with their own body, and so thoroughly uncooperative, that they are eating noodles for every, every, every meal and snack without any willingness to try ANY other foods, period??

Anytime my son has shown a potential pattern for concern, we *talk about it*.

The attitude I have when we talk is best characterized as that of a....consultant. I don't pull rank or invoke any kind of authority. It is not about me. It is about him.

If he really could not be persuaded that noodles alone were insufficient, I'd read nutrition books together. If that did not convince him, I would take him to the doctor, have him explain it, and then, really, my imagination can't stretch any farther, because I cannot imagine my child being really, truly, that obssessed with noodles, that he would not listen to my concerns, or be curious about what the books said, or not be truly alarmed by what the doctor said. I think at that point I would have his hearing checked.

I just don't buy that this scenario is realistic, and that the fear of it should guide a parent's food beliefs....


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I think there's something about this that doesn't sit right with me. And again, so we're on the same page, we're not talking about a passing craving for noodles, but a long-term eating pattern of eating nothing but cereal for breakfast and noodles for lunch and dinner because, well, he can and he wants it.

In the absence of power struggles I don't think this is a realistic scenario. Every single parent I've known/heard about/read about who does not make food an issue has kids who eat "normally." Sometimes if parental controls have recently been lifted there is a binge period, but this inevitably passes and the child resumes a balanced diet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I'd have to agree with another poster than you don't just serve mac n cheese day in day out. You put other things on the plate.

I think every poster here is in agreement with *offering* variety, yes? In my (unusual food allergies) case, we have a limited variety of "safe" foods, but we still rotate and offer new things regularly. I don't think anyone is saying only give them one thing and be ok with them just eating that. I think people are saying offer them choices and be ok with what they choose--even if it's not what you would optimally pick for them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I also think assuming that your child can get the nutrients he needs by artificial supplements is naive at best and dangerous at worst.

For a day? A week? A month? I don't think there's any danger in that. And barring outside circumstances, I can't imagine a real child eating such a diet for any length of time.

Periwinkle, I really liked the rest of your post about dessert and rewarding--I couldn't agree more! Dessert is a non-issue at our house, too (well, at least for the 3 year old who doesn't associate food with control/love/acceptance/etc.







).


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

First of all I wanted to address a couple of assumptions.

Not everyone has the luxury of having extra food around or eating what they want. we eat what we can afford and everything that comes into this house has an assigned place be it an ingredient for a meal, lunch for the week or a specific snack. For example if my childrenhad cerealor PB&j or mac and cheese instead of what I fixed we would be short a meal somewhere else. those things are on themenu for breakfast lunch and dinner and we don't have enough money hanging around to buy extra. especially now that I am buying more organic. it is only a few cents here and there but that is the extra bread, the extra peanutbutter, the extra box f mac and cheese. even the extra apples and cups of yogurt. There really is nothing to spare. If my child doesn't clean thier plate I salvage what I can from them for another meal. (don't worry it will never show up at a pot luck or anything) I don't always like what we are having but I eat it and not something else. If I ate only the foods I liked I would be a very unhealthy person. Sometimes beans and rice are what we can afford. no one is thrilled by beans and rice. as a matter of fact we all have to choke them down but it fills our tummies and is full ofnutrients and protien. And I don't want to get stuck eating that everyday because I can't afford to throw it out and my children have eatn all the tasty food.

speaking of nutrients. we don't have health insurance so it is very important we don't get sick. we can't afford expensive vitimins ontop of nutritious food so they have to eat what will keep themhealthy and avoid what will make them sick. It is just a matter of survival around here to eat what is placed in front of you.

So all this "let them eat what they want" stuff really makes a big assumption that there is an endless amount of food in your house and there are plenty of choices available and if you run out of something you can go get more of what they want. even in America that is not always possible. We are not in aposition to eat what we want all the time. we eat what we can afford and when it is gone it is gone. we are left with beans and rice. yummy








. But still even if we had all the money in the world I still would expect my children to eat was was set before them because if it is has been chosen with thierpreferences in mind and most of the people at the table like it then it is just fine and they can eat it or not but I still wouldn'tmake them somethign special. No one in this house is that lucky. Not even me ormy dh. We often end up eating things we aren't thrilled about (*dh is very picky but will eat things he hates to be a good role model







) but that is life. we can't always have somehting everyone likes. it isn'tpractical and it won't kill you to eat something that isn't your favorite.


----------



## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

I am in complete agreement with you Sandra!!


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Besides, shouldn't the long term goal be fostering healthy eating habits?
Depends on what "healthy eating habits" means to you. For me, healthy eating means I eat the foods I want, whenever I want them, and I eat no foods I do not want. I also do not eat at times and places I do not want to eat, and I pay no attention to the "order" foods are "supposed" to be eaten in (I often eat ice cream well before dinner...sometimes right after breakfast). I do not let expectations or social convention dictate my eating habits and choices.

Other people may not consider this healthy, but for me it is. It's the only way that will work for me. So yes, I am glad I have built these healthy eating habits in myself. I will let my children form their own habits, which may be like mine or different than mine, depending on their individual needs.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
But still even if we had all the money in the world I still would expect my children to eat was was set before them because if it is has been chosen with thierpreferences in mind and most of the people at the table like it then it is just fine and they can eat it or not but I still wouldn'tmake them somethign special. No one in this house is that lucky.

This just makes me really sad. It's late and I'm pregnant, but that just seems so...bleak. I don't think you need to have lots of money or food to make people feel like they have control over their food and that they are "lucky" enough to get something else to eat if they don't care for the food being served. It's more a mindset, you know? Creating joy and treating each other with tenderness and respect.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Sandra I loved your post.







It seems that this whole picky eating phenomenon is unheard of unless you have food to waste. My dad who grew up dirt poor (as in, literally several meals each week when there was no food on the table) can't believe my neice who, yes, believe it or not, will ONLY have a certain kind of cereal for breakfast, and then mac n cheese, cheese pizza, or grilled cheese for lunch and dinner. Her snacks consist of Goldfish and pretzels. (Yes, it's attack of the refined carbs and processed cheese meals in their house). And it's been MONTHS of this. Every once in a while she'll eat some applesauce or fruit (we're talking like once a week) and even less frequently something "green" -- she picks carrot bits out of carrot cake! She is a serious picky eater for no reason other than she is allowed to be, and as Sandra's post pointed out, because there is enough food in the house that they can make special little meals for her all the time. She and SIL are in a constant struggle over food, and it is getting worse not better as she gets older. For everyone who says there's no struggle and child is healthy and happy, then I'd say you have no problem... but that is NOT what a lot of people on this thead are saying, where they are concerned their child is not eating well.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
She is a serious picky eater for no reason other than she is allowed to be, and as Sandra's post pointed out, because there is enough food in the house that they can make special little meals for her all the time. She and SIL are in a constant struggle over food, and it is getting worse not better as she gets older. For everyone who says there's no struggle and child is healthy and happy, then I'd say you have no problem... but that is NOT what a lot of people on this thead are saying, where they are concerned their child is not eating well.

I think the point is being missed. This child is like SO many--she is not a picky eater because "she is allowed to be," she is a picky eater because "she and SIL are in a constant struggle over food." I think there is a direct correlation. And while some posters don't have picky eaters despite limits and controls, every picky eater I have EVER heard of has a parent making a big fuss over their eating.

People are giving adivce and testimonials that if you simply STOP making it a struggle the pickiness stops and there is no need to worry about children eating well.


----------



## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
People are giving adivce and testimonials that if you simply STOP making it a struggle the pickiness stops and there is no need to worry about children eating well.

I'm still following this thread and I have been thinking about it constantly! We have had food struggles here, and I now realize that the issues have largely been MINE. IN the past coupole of days, I have been working really hard on letting go of them (and also thinking about it obsessively as it relates to my own childhood of forced eating and plate-cleaning). Part of it for me is that I do get extremely frustrated when one of my kids asks for something, then I make it, then they change their mind. I have 3 kids 4 and under and I could be in the kitchen all day. that said, I just made 3 different things for breakfast. but no stress, no struggles. thanks mamas


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I think the point is being missed. This child is like SO many--she is not a picky eater because "she is allowed to be," she is a picky eater because "she and SIL are in a constant struggle over food." I think there is a direct correlation. And while some posters don't have picky eaters despite limits and controls, every picky eater I have EVER heard of has a parent making a big fuss over their eating.

People are giving adivce and testimonials that if you simply STOP making it a struggle the pickiness stops and there is no need to worry about children eating well.

























I had witness to a sad case study of this situation this weekend..... some close friends of ours were over visiting with their five year old for a while. her Mom is what could only be described as a control freak, she has always structured every part of her life to very small detail. The dc ate everything that was put in front of her when she was a baby, and her parents provided tons of varied fruits, veg.s, meat, carbs, proteins, etc- the whole nine yards...... she ate very well....
but once she got a little older, dc became pickier and pickier, because it was THE ONE THING SHE COULD CONTROL BY REFUSING TO EAT IT. I noticed when she was a toddler how the mom would decide how many pieces of watermelon or other healthy foods dc could eat- dc could not just go to the table and help herself most times. when dc wanted dessert, the mom would ask- how many pieces of this or that or other healthy food had she eaten? dc would run down the total , everything very controled and calculated....
so here we are, years later, and the baby who ate everything is a five yr old who only will eat quesidillas and cheese, or some other very bland food and only a few bites at that after being talked to about how she needs to eat.
We had hummus and veggies and crackers out, and mom says to dc "you USED to like hummus, not anymore"... before she even had a chance to go over and try some, before she herself could decide..... food has been made a big deal. DC did however want chocalte covered pretzels (she has witnessed how this is good food, something her MOm uses as a reward for herself) so Mom asks how many pieces of quesidlla she had- answer was two, so Mom says OK< you can have two pretzels.... a little while later, the grownups were trying to have some adult time playing trivial pursuit, and dc didnt want to busy herslef with the stuff she brought or my ds toys or books, and kept coming over to mom, and dc kept asking for more pretzels, so Mom says ok, if you go over and play by yourself, you can have two more pretzels, and dc so "OK_but _my_ choice" like this is a comprimise they work out a lot---- if dc gets to choose which exact choc. pretzel or whatver the food is, she is happy.....
And I should mention that they have been having very hard times financially for a while, DAd has been laid off for a long time, Mom can't find much work, either and they live in a very hard place to find jobs. They cannot afford much at all. They eat a lot of rice and cooked carrots, beans, and pastas, every night.etc. they do not have food to waste, they cannot afford and do not make different dinners for dc. So, the logic that she will eat what is on her plate becaus e she is hungry does not work.
Also, Dad is a professional chef, he has always made delicious varied foods, so the "dc should have been exposed to varied tastes and ethnics foods" story was not the problem either. SHe did eat a varied diet until she was a little older and caught onto the game.
Her pickiness is about power and her lack of choice in her eating. She is in a major power struggle with mom, over lots of things, and her eating is where its played out.
very sad
I feel bad for her because now she is having stomach aches (obviously she is not getting the nutrition she needs- but its also about the psychological toll, too)
Also, I just dont buy the idea that if you are poor, you wont be picky. My dad grew up _extremely_ poor, hes recounted to me how they would eat lettuce and mayo sadnwiches for every meal a lot. He had to eat what they could afford. He has been the pickiest eater I've ever known, He eats the same exact food every week. He never tries anything new.

This idea that pickiness is created by spoiling privileged parents because they can afford it, is not true, its about control and pwoer issues.


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

yes it can be a control issue, how sad. I mean its food, unless a child is not eating at all to cause health issues,which means something else is wrong, why care. It is not sometime I want to fight over with my son. He wants to eat great, he doesn't great. He knows when his is hungry and when he is not. Now that he can tell me it is better.

The other day he ate one bite of something and said Tummy full mom and patted his tummy. I said okay and he was done.

When my sister in law was staying with me for a month (oh so long month) she force her son to eat so thinking she could do that to my son she put a huge spoonful (my son eats small bites) into his mouth and held his lips closed. My son looked at her and threw it up all over her. I was right there the whole time and was aware of my son plus he threw it up so fast (which I knew too) so he was in no danger, she never has tried to give him food since.

I NEVER force or control my daycare children with food. I service it they eat or don't. Parents are like he needs to eat both jars of baby food and ALL four bottles by the days end. I say I will not make a child eat. It is offered and that is it.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

lilyka children are logical, and if there is no other food, they understand that, and most will be only too glad to eat what is available.

So while I very much agree with that part of your post, you do a complete 180 at the end of it!

Quote:

. But still even if we had all the money in the world I still would expect my children to eat was was set before them because if it is has been chosen with thierpreferences in mind and most of the people at the table like it then it is just fine and they can eat it or not but I still wouldn'tmake them somethign special. No one in this house is that lucky. Not even me ormy dh.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the "we only can afford a few precious foods" reasoning which we probably all agreed with.

You are clearly using food as a control issue with that statement. It has nothing to do with finances or a limited budget the way you described it.

This is about fundamental attitudes. We are not debating the practical side of this issue, because kids will very likely understand and cooperate when a parent simply has no means to provide alternatives.

If you won't give your kids the choice even when it's there for them to make it, that is a control issue.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Just to clarify my SIL's situation.... yes, it's a power struggle, but the struggle started BECAUSE her dd is a picky eater. And why is she a picky eater? Because the second the child wrinkled her nose, she was there with 18 million alternatives. Being the typical toddler, her dd selected from among the alternatives and decided cheese pizza was the way to go! Her dd learned she could control what she ate and guess what, now she chooses to eat bread and cheese pretty much.

So.... fast forward past 6 months of this behavior.... NOW my SIL is beside herself with worry about dd's health and the long-term impact of such bad food choices... that her dd herself made in the first place. Her dd is not being force-fed obviously! Otherwise she'd be eating fruits and vegetables! SIL has given up, that's the point... she's given in to the whims of a toddler who has most definitely NOT made healthy food choices for herself. Refined carbs and processed cheese, as someone smartly pointed out, have been engineered for children's palates... they taste GOOD! So yeah, toddlers love em!

But now SIL is trying to sneak veggies into things she makes dd. Carrot cake muffins - she picks out the carrots. Pancakes made with applesauce. Mac n cheese with a little broccoli or peas mixed in - all eaten except the icky green stuff. Whenever anyone here on MDC has a child who hates vegetables the first suggestion everyone always makes is try to sneak in veggies here and there into their favorite foods. IMO, that's manipulative. THAT is a power struggle. But this is what my SIL has been reduced to and this is what she is doing. That's why I said she's in a power struggle, not because she's yelling at DD or holding her poor lips closed or anything. Just because now she has a toddler who is super picky, she's worried about her nutrition today and her health tomorrow, and she's trying to figure out some way to deal with it that does not, you know, involve actually changing her dd's eating habits!

Anyway, I think I agree with almost everything said here except apparently that a child eating bread and cheese (and its variants) all day long is behaviour that is not change worthy. I am hardly advocating force feeding or manipulation. What we do (described many posts ago) is completely NON-manipulative -- dd and ds get to eat if they're hungry and don't if they don't BUT I don't rush in with 5 alternative suppers if they turn their nose up at something new on their plate.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
So all this "let them eat what they want" stuff really makes a big assumption that there is an endless amount of food in your house and there are plenty of choices available and if you run out of something you can go get more of what they want. even in America that is not always possible. We are not in aposition to eat what we want all the time. we eat what we can afford and when it is gone it is gone. we are left with beans and rice. yummy









Yeah, you aren't the first person to post about this issue in this thread. I was also just reading another thread in the Nutrition forum asking for help with a really diminished food budget. There are a lot of people in the US who are food-insecure--they can put food on the table, but only just, sometimes having to choose between food and other necessities. It really makes me angry that things are this way in the richest country in the world.

As long as you have a fridge and a way to store things so that they don't go to waste, I still don't see a reason to compell a child to finish his or her meal. The food shouldn't go to waste, but the individual, no matter what their age, should have the autonomy to choose whether to eat and how much. It still shouldn't be a battle. I guess I don't know what I would do in this situation. But I abhor waste and I really want my child to eat the most nutritious stuff, and I still don't think it's the right thing for me to insist that he eat if he isn't hungry or doesn't want that food at that moment.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Being the typical toddler, her dd selected from among the alternatives and decided cheese pizza was the way to go! Her dd learned she could control what she ate and guess what, now she chooses to eat bread and cheese pretty much.

So.... fast forward past 6 months of this behavior.... NOW my SIL is beside herself with worry about dd's health and the long-term impact of such bad food choices... that her dd herself made in the first place. Her dd is not being force-fed obviously! Otherwise she'd be eating fruits and vegetables! SIL has given up, that's the point... she's given in to the whims of a toddler who has most definitely NOT made healthy food choices for herself.

Okay here's a problem. If we as parents don't want our children to eat certain foods, we shouldn't have them in the house. If there is something you think isn't healthful, don't buy it. Don't bring it home! If it's not in the house then they aren't going to eat it. If you keep kosher or halal, you don't buy porkchops--if you are a vegetarian, you don't buy meat--if you are a NT follower, you don't buy soy ice cream--if you are macrobiotic, you don't buy eggplant parmgianna TV dinners! So why, if you are a parent, would you even purchase stuff you think isn't nutritious?

Unless that's what you eat yourself.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

If we as parents don't want our children to eat certain foods, we shouldn't have them in the house.
That seems so obvious to me, and yet many parents will never grasp this. They want the right to eat anything they desire, while insisting their children eat the healthy diets the parents are refusing to eat themselves. The parents will keep all sorts of junk in the house that is not for the children, and then wonder why the children don't want to eat vegetables. I knew a couple who had a "candy drawer" always full to the brim, yet the children were not allowed to have any. Of course the children resented this and there were power struggles.

How does a child find out about Kraft? Although I will fix anything my dd asks for, I do limit it to what is in the house! I won't go out and buy something on short notice. If she asks for noodles, she gets Annie's. That way if she asks for Kraft and I say no, I can tell her truthfully that no one in the house eats it; we're not just making an unfair rule.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

That way if she asks for Kraft and I say no, I can tell her truthfully that no one in the house eats it; we're not just making an unfair rule.
So why is it not just as unfair for you to be the one making the decisions about what foods you buy as it is unfair for me to be the one making the decisions about what is served for dinner? Wouldn't it be more "fair" for the child to get to decide what's on the grocery list?


----------



## yogamama (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree that we shouldn't have crappy food in the house, but there is a place for yummy dark chocolate or ice-cream in a healthy diet. Luckily my kids will eat a wide variety of healthy foods, but if all they wanted was ice-cream, I guess I would have to stop buying ice-cream.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Okay here's a problem. If we as parents don't want our children to eat certain foods, we shouldn't have them in the house. If there is something you think isn't healthful, don't buy it. Don't bring it home!









I think this would avoid so many problems.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
So why is it not just as unfair for you to be the one making the decisions about what foods you buy as it is unfair for me to be the one making the decisions about what is served for dinner? Wouldn't it be more "fair" for the child to get to decide what's on the grocery list?

That would be fair...though when I ask, she never says anything. I don't think she understands yet. But when I take her to the store with me, if she points to something I toss it in the cart. So far it's only been the kind of things we eat anyway, not packaged crap. The way I see it, dh and I get everything we want; it would only be fair to get everything dd wants too. She just doesn't ask for much, and the things she does ask for are things that are already on the list anyway.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
So why is it not just as unfair for you to be the one making the decisions about what foods you buy as it is unfair for me to be the one making the decisions about what is served for dinner? Wouldn't it be more "fair" for the child to get to decide what's on the grocery list?

See, that's why I think that the conflict between the "eat anything in the house" and "eat anything on the dinner table" philosophies is not that great. (Except in the case that Lilyka raises, in which you are holding food in reserve because of lack of resources.) Parents do have a strong role in selecting food, and that's a good thing.

I do think that it's appropriate to enlist children's participation in making a grocery list, though. Just because you set limits, like "we don't eat pepperoni in our house because it isn't kosher, but we can get some other pizza topping, let's think about what it could be" doesn't mean you aren't getting meaningful participation. I used the kosher example because moms who keep kosher have to do this all the time.

People develop from beings who are completely dependent on their parents to beings who are independent, in a very long process. Our job as parents is to make sure that they get to that independence by providing our best love, thinking, information, modelling--and best food!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

yes, it's a power struggle, but the struggle started BECAUSE her dd is a picky eater. And why is she a picky eater? Because the second the child wrinkled her nose, she was there with 18 million alternatives.
In all fairness, this doesn't make sense.

Are you saying if the child hadn't been given choices, she wouldn't be picky? That is a huge assumption. Numerous posts here have talked about that very approach backfiring. Some children will be perfectly content to simply eat the barest possible amount on the plate, to show they still have control.

Secondly, I don't think the mother 'rushing in' describes me personally at all. If my child doesn't want what is served, he needs to very well say so for himself, figure out what he does want, and then put in the time preparing it for himself.

When he was a toddler, this was a complete non issue because:

If I didn't want him eating it, we didn't keep it in the house!

Toddlers should be balanced over a week, not a day, if allowed to "graze" as Dr. Sears calls it.

We kept ice cube trays in the fridge when he was a toddler, and each morning I filled it with all sorts of goodies. Apple, pb, tofu, banana, cheese, etc. Then I put it on the bottom shelf where he could reach it.

Some days he wanted a lot of banana, and only a very little cheese or apple or tofu. As a toddler he drank fortified soy milk daily. If a toddler is still drinking a lot of milk, they won't eat as much in solid form. He did go through phases, but it all balanced out very well over a week. At the end of the day *I* usually ate anything left in the tray. The next day, I made a fresh tray. It was no big deal, no fuss, no arguing, no waste.

Quote:

I agree with almost everything said here except apparently that a child eating bread and cheese (and its variants) all day long is behaviour that is not change worthy.
Not a single person here said that.

Not one, that I have seen.

Everyone has said that you *work with the child* to remedy the situation.

If it is a toddler, like you described, first I would want to know if they are nursing or taking in a significant quantity of milk. That makes a huge difference. As long as they are milk based, they aren't going to eat a great deal of food.

Second, I would absolutely avoid giving them first foods that were heavily modified. Raw fruits, veggies, and nut butters (since nuts may not be safe), beans, and whole grains.

If it's too late and you already gave them the processed stuff, recognize the issue for what it is, and I would gently, VERY carefully, work *with* a toddler, through reading books, drawing, picking and preparing foods together, to make healthier foods appealing in their own right.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Just to clarify my SIL's situation.... yes, it's a power struggle, but the struggle started BECAUSE her dd is a picky eater. And why is she a picky eater? Because the second the child wrinkled her nose, she was there with 18 million alternatives. Being the typical toddler, her dd selected from among the alternatives and decided cheese pizza was the way to go! Her dd learned she could control what she ate and guess what, now she chooses to eat bread and cheese pretty much.

I think there is a consensus here and in most of the toddler literature that I've read, that toddlers will hit a period of food pickiness. Perfectly normal. It takes TWO people to have a power struggle--if the child started being picky and the mother chose to react to that, then voila--power struggle. It is outside my experience and everything I've read, that simply offering the child alternatives has made her a picky eater. You have one example (who is not your child) that you are believing over many mothers here who saying this is not the case in thier own homes. Which is fine, but it doesn't make much of a case and it hardly seems worth discounting the chorus of voices saying, "Let it go. Offer the child something else. They will return to a balanced diet."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
NOW my SIL is beside herself with worry about dd's health and the long-term impact of such bad food choices...

And what I'm saying, and what other people are saying is DON'T worry about it. Children pick up on a lot, so maybe the child gets that this is an issue for the mother. If a parent stops worrying, makes it a non issue, continues to offer--as well as accomodate--the pickiness abates.

More stories of parents letting go of food controls and the results here: http://sandradodd.com/food


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Yeesh. I guess if you have a child who is picky and you're not worried about it, or your toddler's eating habits are working well for your family and your child... great. Then you don't have a problem!

But a lot of people have gotten themselves into a pickle and now are searching for ways out. My SIL is one of them. Other posters have remarked on similar situations or concerns. I think we're all coming up with good ideas, e.g., don't buy junk in the first place, or offer a variety at every meal even if your toddler just wants bread all day, etc. etc.

But just saying, "that's not an issue for me because we never did that" (e.g., urged another bite, offered less than healthy foods, controlled what dc ate, etc.) isn't particularly helpful for those who have gotten into bad situations with their children's eating habits.

If you take this stance:

Quote:

I would absolutely avoid giving them first foods that were heavily modified. Raw fruits, veggies, and nut butters (since nuts may not be safe), beans, and whole grains.
and your toddler refuses to eat dinner, then what do you do? It's all well and good saying, hey, just make rice and black beans and tofu for dinner, but I'd LOOOOOOVE to see the look on my neice's face (and every other picky eater) when faced with that for supper one day. :LOL Here's what would happen: a resounding NO! followed by a wrinkled nose followed by pushing the plate away. Now what do you do? Your child is hungry. Right, you're going to talk about it.







Then when that doesn't work, by 9pm you're probably going to fix your starving kid something to eat or you're going to send her to bed hungry.

So the next recommendation is to work with the child. While I do agree with that, I wonder, taking this to the extreme, either you're controlling what your child eats or you're not. Is "working with the child" a euphamism for asserting your will on your child? If a toddler is making a choice to eat bread and cheese and noodles all the time, then why change it at all? After all, it's what SHE chose, right? (And most people have bread, noodles, and cheese in the house... hardly junk foods.)


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
But just saying, "that's not an issue for me because we never did that" (e.g., urged another bite, offered less than healthy foods, controlled what dc ate, etc.) isn't particularly helpful for those who have gotten into bad situations with their children's eating habits.

But that's NOT what I'm saying. I don't hear anyone saying that. What I do hear is a round of parents with experience saying:

don't control
don't worry
don't refuse alternatives
offer variety
and if you are, STOP engaging in a power struggle over food--it is backfiring.

and offering up real, live examples from their own lives showing how this is working.

At least one person has already come back and said that that advice has been useful to her and her family.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
If you take this stance:.......... and your toddler refuses to eat dinner, then what do you do? It's all well and good saying, hey, just make rice and black beans and tofu for dinner, but I'd LOOOOOOVE to see the look on my neice's face (and every other picky eater) when faced with that for supper one day. :LOL Here's what would happen: a resounding NO! followed by a wrinkled nose followed by pushing the plate away. Now what do you do? Your child is hungry. Right, you're going to talk about it.







Then when that doesn't work, by 9pm you're probably going to fix your starving kid something to eat or you're going to send her to bed hungry.

I would first mention that we were going to try something new for dinner tonight and that I thought the kid would enjoy it. I would offer it and if the child refused I would say, "Oh, don't care for it, huh? What would you care for instead?" If necessary I would say, "I can microwave some chicken nuggets, there is plain rice, there's some leftover pasta in the fridge, or how about some yogurt?" I would just work with him until we solved the hunger/need-for-food problem together. In the rare instances where he has asked for something that would take time and/or effort, I've just said, "That takes a long time to cook, how about something else?" Because I usually just add on some side dishes or other stuff to whatever I'm serving, I would throw something else on the plate, too.

That link I provided has some info on gradually shifting from controls to less: http://sandradodd.com/food.

Interesting to note that the woman whose site this is credits a Mothering Magazine article from the 80s with introducing her to letting go of food controls.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
If you take this stance:

and your toddler refuses to eat dinner, then what do you do? It's all well and good saying, hey, just make rice and black beans and tofu for dinner, but I'd LOOOOOOVE to see the look on my neice's face (and every other picky eater) when faced with that for supper one day. :LOL Here's what would happen: a resounding NO! followed by a wrinkled nose followed by pushing the plate away. Now what do you do? Your child is hungry.


Though we do have a "eat what's on the table, or nothing" stance, we do things to avoid some of the problems that you envision.

First, with the beans and rice and tofu, as with any meal we make we would always have *something* on the table that the child tolerated. It might be cucumbers, olives, and tomatoes. It might be warmed pita bread. It might be some fruit they really like. So...they might not be 'fully satisifed' but they won't be "starving"

Moreover, we don't "do anything" else. Its not the Last Supper. If you dont' eat now it will happen later.

There is always a snack before bed. This snack is from a list of reasonably healthy choices that the parents and kids have worked on together: raisins, yogurt smoothies and fruit dipped ih dark chocolate are among our choices. So there is another opportuntity to eat.

We also try to rotate "less favorite meals" with more popular ones. So if you did not love the meal tonight you prob will the next day.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Well it's too late for Periwinkle's SIL to only offer whole foods as first foods, because she's past the first food stage.

It seems like either the "eat what's on the table" or "eat what's in the house" method would work, as long as the parents believe that their child isn't going to starve. If I were in this terrible fix (and man I would be in a frenzy of anxiety and worry! I have such issues around this stuff!) I would get some vitamin supplements, you know the sweet chewable ones. That would help me stop worrying and relax.

I watched *my* SIL behave like a complete ogre around her children's eating at family meals, and it really made an impression on me. She was so crazy, she was monitoring everything on their plates, every bite in their mouths. It made it horrible even for the other people around them. One of her biggest concerns was their digestion! Isn't that ironic? So I'm working on relaxing.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I guess I have formed my views on this out of being here. Not haveing a choice and seeing the outcome. My children are thankful for food. they don't wrinkle up thier nose and say "gross. fix me something else" when I serve them something they don't like. They simply say "I am not hungry for this. may I be excused" and depending on what we are doing for supper (quick grab something or family meal) they may or may not be expected to sit through the meal. And they know thier left overs will be available for them until bed time.(and maybe a little later if they are really really hungry) They are thankful for the food they have even if they don't like it (as am I). They don't have comfort food. Comfort comes from family and knowing that they are well taken care of. They turn to food for fun or pleasure. again they get that from thier family. from people.

So I love that my dd is older because I don't have to speculate about how she feels about these choices. sheis old enough to know we don't do things like everyone else and can give her opnion so without further adu: Madeline and Lilyka weigh in on this

gist of the conversation-
Madleine: (what happens if you don't like what we are eating for supper?) I don't eat it. Why? we are still having pizza tonight, right ?







:LOL (and how do you feel about that?) I don't mind . its food. food is good. better than not having food. Unless I don't want to eat and then I don't. (How do you think Grandma would feel if you told her you didn't want to eat her food?) Oh I would never say that to Grandma. (and what about mary) Mom, thats just bad manners. gees . . . She would never invite me over again. (do you think it is oK to do that to me?) NO! beside what would you make give us? PB&J







(do you think I am mean about food?) No. you feed me. (If you had your own money to buy food would you use that or just eat whats in front of you and spend yourmoney on something else?) no I wouldn't spend money on food. I could just wait until breakfast. Its not that far away. I would rather spend my money on important stuff. (do you think I should make you whatever you want? ) why would you do that? Thats silly mom.

Lilyka: (what do you think baby?) I'm hungry. when's supper?

Now most of you probably think I have just brainwashed her to feel this way and maybe I have but I don't mind that. I think she has a really great relationship with food and doesn't look to it for comfort or basemy love for her on what we eat and how much and if she gets precisely what she wants. So we came to this place because we had no extra food to suit thier whiims but I think even if we hadlimitless food around here, knowing what I know now I wouldn't change anything. I like the way they approach food. i like that it isn't a significant part of thier life, that they don't look to it for comfort, fun or security. It is just to fiull thier bellies and give them energy. I like that they will eat somehting they aren't fond of to spare someones feelings. They know that it isn't such a big deal that it is worth hurting someone over. at the same time if they truely don't like it they know how to politely refuse andmove on whithout whining or demanding or evben asking for somehting else to be prepared especially for them. I get annoyed with kids who come over to my house and demand food and then say "I don't like that I want something better." I would be mortified if that was my child. And I think we have not only handled how not to waste food atour house but also how to be a good guest at someone elses.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I guess I am such a weirdo here







:

The topic about food has grown to be 10 pages long...

May I ask - how much time, resources, energy, money is being put into food and eating?

I honestly (not bashing anyone here, just trying to understand) simply put something in my mouth so my stomack does not growl.

Most of the time that something is either fruit or veggie cuz - 1. I know it's good for you 2. It's easiest and fastest.

I know I have to watch what my kids eat and stuff, I guess what I fail to see is how food can be a struggle of any sort? Power struggle? Good for you / not good for you struggle? The foods that are good for you don't even have to be cooked most of the times.

I am sorry for this analogy, but to me it's like struggling *over which* toliet they/we have to eliminate and *if* they/we have to at all and if there are *specific times* when they/we are expected to do it.

Please feel free to educate me, for I am seriously missing something here.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Wow, I can't imagine taking no pleasure in food on purpose lilyka. You are living a totally different paradigm.

I love food. It is epicurian delight. Good hot coffee on an early morning rise. Good fresh vegetables from the garden. Bread buttered right out of the oven. Cookies still so warm they threaten to collapse, followed by fresh milk.

It is a priviledge to have that experience, and I am grateful for it. For me gratitude is in the enjoying of it.

Irinam, you aren't missing anything. I don't get it either. The degree of control, negativity, and micro management towards what a child may eat here is utterly foreign to me.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

ooops double post


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

EFmom wrote:

Quote:

So why is it not just as unfair for you to be the one making the decisions about what foods you buy as it is unfair for me to be the one making the decisions about what is served for dinner? Wouldn't it be more "fair" for the child to get to decide what's on the grocery list?
By the time my son was old enough to have an opinion about what was on the grocery list, he
was also old enough to appreciate thoughtful guidance from me about what to put on it.

It's amazing the degree of combativeness parents ASSUME from kids about this issue!!

Really!

This is just like when parents ask "How can you discipline without EVER spanking? Not even as a last resort?".

It is a complete paradigm shift you have to make.

Even if spanking worked in the short term, I wouldn't use it because of the long term risks.

Even if arbitrary, parent created rules and regulations about food worked in the short term, I would not use them because of long term risks.

And yes I do believe that arbitrary food rules are negative and unhealthy, and I see the evidence of that around me everyday.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

periwinkle wrote:

Quote:

Now what do you do? Your child is hungry. Right, you're going to talk about it. Then when that doesn't work, by 9pm you're probably going to fix your starving kid something to eat or you're going to send her to bed hungry.
Yes, we would talk about it. We'd figure out what he wanted to eat, and make that. It's not a big deal. My son has no reason to be difficult about food. He trusts he will like what we make, and on the rare occasion he doesn't, he asks for something else and I make it.

Good grief. It is not a big deal! It really isn't.

If my child suddenly acted like your niece, it would be fine. I would not worry. I would make up nibble trays of healthy foods and back off completely (this is a toddler, right?). It would be a non issue.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Sometimes I wonder if we take too much credit for the way our kids are. I have 2 kids whom I've taken the same general approach with. But they are like night and day when it comes to food. One likes vegetarian foods and bready stuff. The other loves meat and yogurt. One will try anything new and unusual and gives everything his best effort. The other feels comfortable with good old stand-bys. One likes to spend an hour "experiencing" his meals and the other likes to eat just enough to get by on the fly and get back to his playtime.

I'd just be really hesitant to take a lot of credit for either child's eating habits or attitudes.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Hmm, if the theory was correct that exposing children to a wide varieties of foods created the brain wiring to make them adventurous eaters, then it would follow that I would now eat nothing other than meat, tatties and gravy, shepherds pie, and overcooked cabbage. :LOL

So, why do I love all types of spicy food now? How come I live on 'non-British food, when I never even _tried_ pasta or rice until I was in my 20s.









There is absolutely no connection between the brain's ability to wire for language and the formation of likes and dislikes, for food or otherwise. I think we can take too much credit or blame for how our children turn out regarding food preferences. The only part we can truly influence is their view of food itself.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, we don't eatplain rice all the time. We do enjoy food but we don't make a bog dealoutof always having somehting that is great. Some days we get the fresh baked bread with melty butter and somedays we get the rice and pintos. We don't complain about the beans becuase food is here to serve us and not the other way around. When we do have somehting especially tasty we celebrate it. but it isn't the deciding factor on wether or not our day goes well. My kids don't sit around groussing if they didn't get exactly what they wanted. it just isn't a big deal to them. They don't mind skipping a meal if it just doesn't appeal to them (and I do make exceptions when they are sick or somehting and the way something taste can make make the difference between keeping it down or sending it back and they already feel like crud). That was my point. they don't get all bent out of shape and complainy about food. sometimes they talk about how good it was for days. sometimes they talk about how gross it was (and I do refrain from making thosemeals again :LOL). Sometimes they want more when they have licked thier plates clean sometimes they refuse to make eye contact with the food. whatever it is thier choice. But if they choose not to eat it isn't a big deal to them.

MAybe it is because we focus on the attitudes more than the food. I am not standing over them screaming "eat it or starve you dirty rotten kid" while my malnurished, underweight, scurvy ridden child is cowering in the corner begging for a PB&J sandwhich instead. They say I don't like this, I say OK you don't have to eat it, they say OK may I be excused, I say yeah go get ready for bed. No big. Because really if they started whining and complaining about not likeing thier food I would be much more concerned with the whining and complaining than the not eating so that is just natrually what I have always focused on.

but really I have a life waiting forme somewhere. I should really go get it :LOL


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*

May I ask - how much time, resources, energy, money is being put into food and eating?

I honestly (not bashing anyone here, just trying to understand) simply put something in my mouth so my stomack does not growl.

Doesn't it seem like a pretty important topic? Right up there with sleep, elimination and sex? It's kind of basic. We have to eat.

On a parenting board, it's got to be one of the most important issues, because what we feed our children has a lasting impact. It's not like, if they grow up with bad feelings about food and eating, they can just skip those things! If they don't grow up eating well and feeling good about it, it can affect them profoundly, physically and psychologically.

Also please note that some of the conflict is about people who live in the world's richest country who sometimes have to struggle to put food on the table at all.

In my family, food was a huge issue. One of my goals as a parent is to not pass on their craziness, nor to create new craziness.

Everyone who has said, "It's easy, just do this" didn't grow up in my house with my mom, that's for sure!

Though I think that was the tone of my first post on the first page of this thread. I guess because it has gotten easier for me lately....hmmm.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

it just isn't a big deal to them. They don't mind skipping a meal if it just doesn't appeal to them
and then

Quote:

They say I don't like this, I say OK you don't have to eat it, they say OK may I be excused, I say yeah go get ready for bed. No big. Because really if they started whining and complaining about not likeing thier food I would be much more concerned with the whining and complaining than the not eating
They cannot "complain" about food

They cannot "whine" about what is served

Can they ask politley? No, you already said you won't prepare something different nor allow discussion about it.

But "They don't mind skipping a meal".

Well how may I ask can you possibly know that?

What good would it do them to say so? Would you even listen? Would you even consider changing?

I don't understand how this can possibly be called gentle parenting. I don't understand how you can watch your kids skip meals and say "oh, they are fine with that" "they don't mind it" "this approach is working great".

In what spirit do you view this as "success?"

I am sure you love your kids as much as anyone else, and only want the best for them. But there is no justification for ultimatums between "eat this or eat nothing".


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

maya34 wrote:

Quote:

So...they might not be 'fully satisifed' but they won't be "starving"

Moreover, we don't "do anything" else. Its not the Last Supper. If you dont' eat now it will happen later.

Quote:

we do have a "eat what's on the table, or nothing" stance
In what spirit do you consider this respectful, gentle, or even successful?

"eat it or eat nothing"?

Listening to your children is an essential part of gentle parenting.

Why won't you listen?


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I consider it sucessful, in that the vast, vast majority of the the time my kids leave each meal fully satisfied and well, full, while happily eating a wide range of foods.

They eat foods that are healthful. They are willing to try new things. They never "worry" that there will be a meal somewhere (friends house or in Japan) that they won't eat.

On the few days per year when they really have not found much at a meal (either at home or out) they don't panic or get upset. They know there will be another meal or snack in a few hours and are don't mind waiting.

How do I know? Because we have discussed it. They laugh (to themselves( at kids who only eat pb&j. At the girls who cried at camp when fish was served, at their dad's co-workers kids who had to skip the trip to Tokyo Disney because they had to go home early because they weren't able to find ennough to eat on the trip.

My kids are awesome in every respect. I listen to all of their needs and most of their wants. I have raised them to have a great relationship with food and I am quite proud of that fact.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I have raised them to have a great relationship with food and I am quite proud of that fact.
If that is true, why do you need to forbid them to eat anything you haven't put on the table?

Quote:

They never "worry" that there will be a meal somewhere (friends house or in Japan) that they won't eat.
You have said that sometimes they don't eat the meals served to them.

This is a bit of a self fulfilling situation. You don't hear requests for foods off the table because you don't allow it.

Quote:

They know there will be another meal or snack in a few hours and are don't mind waiting.
What have you taught them when you make them wait? Even if it only happens infrequently. What message do you think it is sending on the nights where it comes to that? You have a pantry full of food. But they must wait for the next meal and hope they luck out and it is one they want to eat.

It does send a message, and it isn't a respectful one. It is only a lesson in obedience. You eat when I say you eat. If you don't eat then, you don't eat. This may work many nights, as they surely know by now that what you serve is the only choice they have. But you reinforce that this is only fundamentally about obedience on the nights they won't eat what you serve. If you would choose giving them nothing else over giving them control and letting them decide, this is about control and obedience, above all else.

You sound like a very devoted parent. I wish you could let go and see that your kids will do just fine without you needing to stand between them and the pantry.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I feel like I'm reading Foodwise. :LOL

"It won't hurt Baby to wait 45 minutes until the next scheduled feeding--she certainly won't starve."

"Baby needs to learn to eat what is provided at the scheduled times--otherwise how will she ever learn to live with lunch hours and coffee breaks that are not provided at her whim."

"Baby must learn that crying or whining will not get her fed when and what she wants. Rudeness never pays."

"Accomodating Baby and catering to her every passing whim will only result in a spoiled, unpleasant child who seeks to manipulate and control her parents."

I'm with Heartmama, I don't see how some of these methods are respectful, gentle, or AP.







These are ultimatums and threats. How is "Eat or go hungry--I'm doing it for your own good," any different from the lines we hear about spanking? The m.o. is still to produce a desired behavior based on fear/pain/physical discomfort--not shared problem solving using respect and a handful of tactics/tools, nor getting to the root of the situation.

Sure, some people can Babywise/spank/control food/etc. and not have negative results. These instances still don't make it OK to me. It seems like the majority of results ARE negative and that ought to be enough for us to look at these methods critically.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Well it makes sense to me and it makes sense to them and that is all that matters.

I said that they "don't worry". This means that they don't worry about a future meal that might not be what they want. They are not thinking "well, what if there is nothing that I like when we go to Adid's house because his family cooks Indian food and I don't know if I like Indian food." Instead, they know that they can try it and see or just wait til later and have a snack at bedtime.

Its not a matter of "lucking out" snack time is a guranteed food you like.

It certainly is not a matter of "obediance" It is about how our whole family operates. We eat what is on the table. We don't go making seperate meals.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Maya my son never worries if someone serves him foods he doesn't like. He knows he can fix something else later.

You don't have to give ultimatums. You really don't.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

We have a no whining and no complaing rule about everything. they may politely talk to me about it if they wish. there simply isn't other food for them to have so it is a non-issue. But they do need to tell me if they really don't like something, I always take thier taste into account unless there is just truely nothing else to eat. (because if they hate it it still gets wasted and we are working on elimiating waste here) I talked to my 8 year old about it today and she says she doesn't mind skipping a meal. She truely doesn'tmind. I skip meals when I am not hungry or just really don't want what we are having and rarely feel so much as hungry over it. But my children rarely find nothing they like. So there is usually almost always something that appeals to them. this is what we have worked it out as a family and it is what works for us. My children aren't unhappy about so i don't see what the big deal is. If it wouldn't work for your child then don't do it.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Well it makes sense to me and it makes sense to them and that is all that matters.

I said that they "don't worry". This means that they don't worry about a future meal that might not be what they want. They are not thinking "well, what if there is nothing that I like when we go to Adid's house because his family cooks Indian food and I don't know if I like Indian food." Instead, they know that they can try it and see or just wait til later and have a snack at bedtime.

See, I would think your way would make a child *more* likely to worry, because she would know that if she didn't like what was served, she'd have to wait until the next designated eating time. My kid didn't worry because she knew she could eat as soon as we left if she didn't like it, or else (especially when she was little) I probably had an apple or sandwich stashed in my bag. Low blood sugar meltdowns=no fun, so I learned to be prepared.

At first she just ate poori, naan, and rice, then she added aloo gobhi pahkoras, but now she's branched out and eats pretty much all indian food. For the record. And shahi paneer is manna of the gods.

Quote:

Its not a matter of "lucking out" snack time is a guranteed food you like.
Why is snack guaranteed to be something the child likes, but not meals? What's the logic in that?

Dar


----------



## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

heartmama, I really think you are reading far more 'control' and 'combativeness' into our approach than actually exists!

Family meals are important to us. Our family is important. I am important. If we have agreed on the menu (usually as a family), we may shuffle the meals around to different days if we don't feel like meal A on that particular day. But although I love cooking, I have limited time and energy available to make many different meals. My children are important, which is why their likes and dislikes are given strong consideration (far more than mine much of the time!). Sometimes finances mean we have limited choices to offer (like lilyka - sp?). Sometimes there are choices in abundance.

We have a variety of healthy snacks on offer throughout the day and they are not limited (occasionally we remind DD that x is for dinner and she chooses whether to fill up on crackers and dip/muffins/smoothie or to leave 'lots of space' for x







). If DD doesn't really eat much at dinner (which is rare because quite a lot of effort goes into planning meals so that there is at least a selection of food that she likes within the meal as a whole), she knows she can have as much fruit as she likes, and probably one of the available snacks before brushing her teeth (usually less than 1 1/2 hours after dinner finishes).

It is NOT combative. She raves to her friends about how great a cook I am, and is horrified about the way some of her friends' parents behave at meal times (controlling what her friends eat). She also couldn't understand why her grandparents kept encouraging her to eat something or to finish up what was on her plate. We generally don't comment on what is eaten or not. If she seems to have 'inhaled' a particular food we may say "You really enjoyed x tonight didn't you?!" or something similar. If she eats every scrap of food on her plate and asks for seconds, we might say "You must have been really hungry today!". Other than that we discuss our day, what we did, what we enjoyed, what went wrong...Sometimes if I'm serving something (as a PART of the meal) that DD doesn't usually like I might ask her, "would you like a bit of x tonight?" If the answer is no, that's it. There is NO coercion. She doesn't leave the table hungry. She gets to make choices. She sees that we take her likes and dislikes seriously. I honestly cannot see how this approach is either controlling or disrespectful in any way. (but I do admit to feeling like heartmama is being disrespectful and belittling of my food 'style'







)


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Maya my son never worries if someone serves him foods he doesn't like. He knows he can fix something else later.

You don't have to give ultimatums. You really don't.


I have never given an ulitmatum.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullCream*
heartmama, I really think you are reading far more 'control' and 'combativeness' into our approach than actually exists!

Family meals are important to us. Our family is important. I am important. If we have agreed on the menu (usually as a family), we may shuffle the meals around to different days if we don't feel like meal A on that particular day. But although I love cooking, I have limited time and energy available to make many different meals. My children are important, which is why their likes and dislikes are given strong consideration (far more than mine much of the time!). Sometimes finances mean we have limited choices to offer (like lilyka - sp?). Sometimes there are choices in abundance.

We have a variety of healthy snacks on offer throughout the day and they are not limited (occasionally we remind DD that x is for dinner and she chooses whether to fill up on crackers and dip/muffins/smoothie or to leave 'lots of space' for x







). If DD doesn't really eat much at dinner (which is rare because quite a lot of effort goes into planning meals so that there is at least a selection of food that she likes within the meal as a whole), she knows she can have as much fruit as she likes, and probably one of the available snacks before brushing her teeth (usually less than 1 1/2 hours after dinner finishes).

It is NOT combative. She raves to her friends about how great a cook I am, and is horrified about the way some of her friends' parents behave at meal times (controlling what her friends eat). She also couldn't understand why her grandparents kept encouraging her to eat something or to finish up what was on her plate. We generally don't comment on what is eaten or not. If she seems to have 'inhaled' a particular food we may say "You really enjoyed x tonight didn't you?!" or something similar. If she eats every scrap of food on her plate and asks for seconds, we might say "You must have been really hungry today!". Other than that we discuss our day, what we did, what we enjoyed, what went wrong...Sometimes if I'm serving something (as a PART of the meal) that DD doesn't usually like I might ask her, "would you like a bit of x tonight?" If the answer is no, that's it. There is NO coercion. She doesn't leave the table hungry. She gets to make choices. She sees that we take her likes and dislikes seriously. I honestly cannot see how this approach is either controlling or disrespectful in any way. (but I do admit to feeling like heartmama is being disrespectful and belittling of my food 'style'







)


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I talked to my 8 year old about it today and she says she doesn't mind skipping a meal. She truely doesn'tmind.
That is a good thing? Is this because she literally has no hunger, or because she doesn't want what is served?

I am a bit confused about something else. You mentioned in one post being on a tight budget and there was no extra food to choose from. Having been on a very tight budget I can appreciate how that would feel. You said in another post that whether or not you had plenty of money, you still wouldn't let them eat off the table.

It's hard for me to know how to take your posts as they turn.

I don't want to imply you should feel badly that there is nothing else in the house to eat. You shouldn't! But I also don't want to overlook your belief that it wouldn't matter if there was lots to choose from, because you wouldn't allow it. I have seen that belief expressed in your posts and that is what I take issue with~as far as being on a very limited food budget I am sorry because that sucks.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

FullCream I don't think you read a single one of my posts. I also am not sure you read maya's posts or lilykas.

What you wrote here was a complete 180 from the "eat it or go hungry" approach that maya said, word for word, is the approach she has in her house. "Eat what is on the table or don't eat". I believe those were maya's exact words.

Lilyka said she would not allow her kids to eat foods off the table even if finances were not an issue.

So please, please read the posts, because you aren't making sense.

Quote:

We have a variety of healthy snacks on offer throughout the day and they are not limited (occasionally we remind DD that x is for dinner and she chooses whether to fill up on crackers and dip/muffins/smoothie or to leave 'lots of space' for x ). If DD doesn't really eat much at dinner (which is rare because quite a lot of effort goes into planning meals so that there is at least a selection of food that she likes within the meal as a whole), she knows she can have as much fruit as she likes, and probably one of the available snacks before brushing her teeth (usually less than 1 1/2 hours after dinner finishes).

Do you know which house you resemble?? MINE.

Honestly, I feel like you need to go back and read the thread.

You are not even remotely talking about a routine of "eat it or don't eat" fullcream.

The "eat it or don't eat" approach is what I've been challenging. If you have yummy foods available all day, and happen to serve some meals too, that is great, that is what we do, and I am not sure what I said that made you think otherwise?


----------



## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

But you see heartmama, that's what maya's house is like too!! (because I agree with everything she has said, and she seems to have agreed with what I have said!). At _meal-times_ we do not offer alternatives. At meal-times, you eat what is on the table. That is not to say that there are not snacks available at other times of the day or that we have a punitive 'eat what is there or go hungry' attitude. And this is why I feel like you are reading things into what maya and I are saying. What you understand maya to have said is COMPLETELY different to what I understood her to say. Please don't impugn MY reading comprehension skills (when you apparently have similar comprehension problems







).

I also suspect that perhaps you and maya may have philosophical differerences about which I have no knowledge, as you seemed to take issue with what you THOUGHT she was saying right off the bat, and have not taken any different position in spite of her clarifications.

Anyway, I'm feeling feisty and should stop before I say something I may regret later







:


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

As Heartmama has pointed out, posters have repeatedly said, "My child eats what is offered at mealtimes, or gets no other food at that mealtime." It's all right there in the thread. How is that not punititive? How is that not controlling and expecting obedience?

Rule: Eat what is served for dinner.

Break Rule: Don't eat what is served for dinner.

Punishment: Food is withheld until next scheduled meal/snack.

How is denying children food for infractions EVER OK? I just don't get it. At all.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
As Heartmama has pointed out, posters have repeatedly said, "My child eats what is offered at mealtimes, or gets no other food at that mealtime." It's all right there in the thread. How is that not punititive? How is that not controlling and expecting obedience?

Rule: Eat what is served for dinner.

Break Rule: Don't eat what is served for dinner.

Punishment: Food is withheld until next scheduled meal/snack.

How is denying children food for infractions EVER OK? I just don't get it. At all.


Its not a punishment because it the same result no matter waht

and the Rule is: Eat or Don't Eat what is served for Dinner

If you: Eat it

Result: No Food is served til next snack/meal

If you: Don't eat it

Result: No Food is served til next snack/meal

NOT PUNISHMENT.

And of course, there is dessert time immediatey after the main part of the meal. Don't have to eat anything to get that, as I have said before. And I have yet to serve a dessert that anyone does not like. (Although after DD 1's favorite meal: Lobster, Mashed Potatoes and Ceasar Salad, she often says she is just tooo full!)

There is no "infraction" for not eating. No one is upset or unhappy with you. Its not even commented upon. We are too busy discussing our day and our "topic of the day" which can range from "What's the best part of your school year so far" to "What can our family do for the Tsunami victims" to "How should we celebrate Grandpa's 80th B-day."

Our meals are a time of family and fun.

'
And everyone in the family follows this way of eating.

Moreover, my kids have never not eaten anything (execept when sick). They have NEVER asked for something else. It never occurred to them, they see what we do and how we eat and follow that.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
Sometimes I wonder if we take too much credit for the way our kids are. I have 2 kids whom I've taken the same general approach with. But they are like night and day when it comes to food. One likes vegetarian foods and bready stuff. The other loves meat and yogurt. One will try anything new and unusual and gives everything his best effort. The other feels comfortable with good old stand-bys. One likes to spend an hour "experiencing" his meals and the other likes to eat just enough to get by on the fly and get back to his playtime.

I'd just be really hesitant to take a lot of credit for either child's eating habits or attitudes.

Just wanted this repeated.

Reading this thread, it seems like a lot of people have gotten good eaters with different approaches, and credit the approaches. Fact is, some kids are born "good" eaters. And others are born with very sensitive palates--a sensitivity that should be respected.

My dd has senstivities in other areas--not food. Food--she loves trying new things, discussing the healthfulness of the choices--I swear, she is just a *strange* preschooler, lol. But try to get her to wear pants, and you are in for a needless power struggle. So I can completely see how some children have honest-to-goodness sensitivities that will manifest as "pickiness".

After reading many of the responses, I think our home is a bit of a middle ground. My only rules about meals is what *I* will bring to the table. I make a meal. If I am not completely positive that dd will like the meal, I bring other yummy/healthy choices for her (cut apples, yogurt, cucumbers, etc). If she does not want to eat, she does not have to. If she wants to eat, but not what is on the table, she may visit the fridge and choose something else. But *I* won't get up and get something else. Because I am eating, and probably feeling a bit short on patience because I am HUNGRY!!!!

At any time at all during the day, she may get something from the fridge. She may also ask for a snack at any point in the day--sometimes I fix one for her, sometimes I am busy and direct her to the fridge. No biggie. It is all healthy food anyway, so I don't really care when she eats it. I'd rather her eat as her body guides her, rather than as my meal times dictate. That is my preference.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Oops, double post.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

One more small point--

It is not necessary to require children to "try" or "taste" a new food for them to eventually eat the food. Maybe they will eat the food sooner this way, maybe not. I have read that children are more likely to try a novel food on their own after a certain number of exposures (30?). We just serve the food, and enjoy eating it in front of dd. She learns a lot thru observational learning (watching us enjoying the food), and becomes more familiar with the sight/smell of the food. Then, when she finally tastes the food, she seems very likely to *like* it. This works for us. I do not offer this as the one "right" way, but just as evidence that we don't *have* to force them to try the food to have broad eaters.

As I said in prev post, my dd enjoys trying new foods. But she tries them only when she is ready. She is never forced to try them before she is ready. But when she tries them, she enjoys the experience, and usually likes the new food.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am just curious, Maya....do your kids get their own snacks? I am understanding that they don't--that you decided when and what snack is served. Am I misunderstanding? Because I am curious--have they never just gone into the fridge and grabbed and apple on their own? Or maybe I have misunderstood.....


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I guess I forgot to address that

We started this way because we had to. I am so happy with the way it has shaped my dd attitude (or maybe she has just a good attitude in general and it is just reflected in her willingness to acccept what is put in front of her) that even if we doend upwith more money one day we won't change how we do things. If we had had moremoney to begin with I am sure I would have been a get what you want tyoe of person.

Madeline just looked up the computer and said "you're still talking about dinner ?" rolled her eyes and went off to get breakfast. She thinks we are very silly. But I have to go pour the milk so I'll catch ya later.

and again I just have to say, my children rarely leave the table without eating. When they are hungry they will eat what I have cooked. It is never bad (OK occaisionally but then we all get something else to eat) and they preferances get much more attention than mine. the only time we end up eating rice and beans is if we don't get a paycheck or something and then there really is nothing to eat. We would all prefer not to go there but you have to eat something on those days.

and wenever do desert. treats are usually eaten between meals in the middle of the day as a snack.


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I've read every post and I'm really curious as to why it's gone on so long.

I see nothing wrong with Maya's approach. What's wrong with an Eat What's on the Table rule? As long as the child isn't forced to clean their plates, meaning told to sit at the table until they eat it, I see no "punishment" here.

When I was growing up, I was expected to clean my plate, which I usually dished up myself, and/or to at least eat a few bites of things that I didn't like but were good for me, ie, vegetables.

Meal times were special, it never occured to me to ask for something else. I either ate what was on the table, made by my parents, or I did not. They would often put the food in the fridge and I'd eat it before bed because by that time I was good and hungry.

If I did not clean my plate, I wasn't punished, but, I couldn't get a snack immediately after supper because I didn't bother to eat what was provided to me in the first place.

The snack I would have wanted would have been cookies, and, frankly I'm glad that my parents didn't just let me do what I wanted. I was a CHILD, I did not know what nutrients I needed or what a balanced diet was.

I remember very matter of factly sitting down with my mom and explaining that I only ever wanted to eat: cookies, cucumbers, pickles, peanut butter, cheese and carrot sticks, thankyouvery much. No meatloaf, or anything with sauce on them, no broccolli, cabbage, spinnach, brussel sprouts, green beans, yellow beans, cooked tomato anything, potatoes, turnips, yams, cauliflower, onion, peas, corn, rice, squash, or dark lettuce, thanks.

I'm now very happy that my mother said, "Well, that's fascinating. You see, your body NEEDS those vegetables in order to live and thrive. I'm your mommy, and it's my job to make sure you are healthy. So, you can drown all of those 'yucky things' in mustard if you feel like it, but, you WILL eat them."










Most children don't like the taste of most vegetables, but, they MUST eat them for their own health. I have developed a taste for some veggies now, but, really, I have to force myself to eat some of them (variety is very important for health) now in my adult life. I KNOW that I need these things to be healthy, I'm an adult. A CHILD only knows what they like the taste of.

When I have children, I will serve them a variety of foods, including yucky vegetables, because they and I and their father need them. I'll go one step beyond what my parents did, I'll serve many of them raw with a variety of dips, that is what I do with my own diet to ensure I get enough of the "good stuff".

I'm getting the sense that the whole attitude on this forum is that rules, any rules, are bad or wrong.

Trinitty.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
I've read every post and I'm really curious as to why it's gone on so long....

I'm getting the sense that the whole attitude on this forum is that rules, any rules, are bad or wrong.


Two things:

1. It's gone on long because it is actually an important issue that does not have a transparently obvious answer. No matter how many times people post to say "Don't you *see* it is so *obvious*! and anyway food is trivial!" Obviously, that's not so!

2. There _are_ some people on this forum who do not believe in rules, or at least not parents making rules for children, and others who do believe in rules. I think that some of the reason that people are disagreeing about how to deal with food is precisely over the framework of rules. In other respects they don't differ very much!

You, however, are out of step with the consensus, as you believe in compelling your future children to eat things you think are good for them.

Now to this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Most children don't like the taste of most vegetables, but, they MUST eat them for their own health. I have developed a taste for some veggies now, but, really, I have to force myself to eat some of them (variety is very important for health) now in my adult life. I KNOW that I need these things to be healthy, I'm an adult. A CHILD only knows what they like the taste of.

Well it seems to me that your mom's way of introducing you to new foods was a failure and not something that you should emulate. It is not true that most children don't like the taste of most vegetables. In most of the world, many children enjoy a wide variety of vegetables. As I child, I could name you the three or so vegetables that I did not enjoy, because it was weird to me that I didn't like them.

Your mom made you eat vegetables and in order to be healthy as an adult, you force yourself to eat them. You even plan to serve "yucky vegetables" to your husband!

I never serve anything to anyone if I think it's "yucky."

I'm not coming to your house for dinner.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I am just curious, Maya....do your kids get their own snacks? I am understanding that they don't--that you decided when and what snack is served. Am I misunderstanding? Because I am curious--have they never just gone into the fridge and grabbed and apple on their own? Or maybe I have misunderstood.....

Well, not much

My kids were never big snackers when they were little. They always ate well at meals and often turned down snack time. I can't hardly remember them ever asking for a snack in those days in between times.

They are always welcome to grab the fruit that is on the counter, but don't do so very oftern

Now that they are in school all day, they bring (per school rule) a fruit or vegetable snack for mid-morning snack.

Right after school, we have another snack time for my two younger dd's who are home (the older stays late at school or goes directly to religious school).

More than half the time the girls say they are not hungry after school and don't want a snack. If they do I usually fix it for them. They know what is a permissable snack (long list ranging from cereal to peanut butter and crackers, cheese and crackers, fruit dipped in chocolate, veggies and dip, power bar etc...)

3 out of 5 days they have a class to go to about 45 minutes after they get home. There is no time for them to grab something.

When they get home, dinner is on the table within 15 minutes or so. Sometimes they will pick at the salad that is out first.

After dinner there is dessert. About 1 1/2 hour later there is a bedtime snack for those who want it. I'd say they only have this about 1/2 the time. They do get this themselves and they know what their options are. They have never asked for it before the appointed time.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Its not a punishment because it the same result no matter waht

The result is NOT the same whether they eat or not. If they eat they are full. If they don't eat, and are told that they may not have something else, then they are hungry and food has been withheld.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I just think that it can't be that black and white all the time.

There are soooo many variables to life. Sometimes I offer only what I can to dd, sometimes she chooses, sometimes there is nothing for her to choose from and I have to make a super creative meal out of nothing, sometimes she isn't hungry, sometimes she is ravenous and eats almost anything.

Do you guys get my drift?

Flexiblity in your style of parenting is important to if the resounding message is that your will nuture and protect your child while providing the bounderies and limits that child need to thrive. That doesn't mean that I am making super rules all the time, it just means that I am moving along with dd in her development and not creating power struggles.


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
I've read every post and I'm really curious as to why it's gone on so long.


Because the people here at MC are talkers (I MEAN it in a good way people). We like to express ourselves, offer our side to the OP. Its not a bad thing. Post that do get long tend to have negitive posts in them but for the most part its a TON of information not just for the OP but everyone who reads it now.

Each child is different when it comes to food. I know a child who did NOT eat anything for a long time. The mother is an amazing person and went through so much to get this child to eat a simple cracker.

I enjoy cooking, I think because of how my parents taught ME to view food.
My brother is 27 and still hates green beans not really anything my parent did with green beans. They made them we ate them or not. I like them he, doesn't. My parents never made us eat all the food on our plates. They let us put what we wanted on our plates.

I think taste also changes with age. I know there are things I like now and did not like at all as a child.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
It is not true that most children don't like the taste of most vegetables. .

My dd loves veggies. She loves cucumbers, tomatoes, broccoli, green beans, corn, squash, turnips, ruttabaga, cauliflower, and...well...almost anything that is not very bitter or very seasoned. She enjoys eating foods that are presented as healthy, and learning about how they make her body healthy. Some she does not like (raw carrots, brussel sprouts, raw leafy greens), so she doesn't eat them. She is plenty healthy, and she simply does not need to eat those specific veggies for her health. That is just untrue--a white lie parents tell their children. She can get those nutrients elsewhere, or with the veggies prepared in a different format (spinach prepared in spanakopita, her favorite food







).

IMO, it is also untrue that children do not know what their bodies need. The fascinating thing is, given the chance to control her own eating patterns and choices (within the limits of the foods I am willing to buy and bring into the home), dd has developed an amazingly healthy and balanced diet. She craves veggies and fruits and protein, and will seek these foods in a healthy balance when hungry. I'm not saying that every child could do this....a child with an oral sensory issue, for example, might be too offended by the taste, texture, or temperature of certain foods to seek the foods she needs. But my dd does a good job listening to her body and seeking the foods she needs.

We have rules. We just don't have many rules about food. This is something that falls under the category of "her body", and I want her to self regulate her eating behaviors. I believe it is an important skill, and one that children are born mastering--only to unlearn in a culture of huge portions, poor nutritional choices, and--sometimes--controlling environments.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
They are always welcome to grab the fruit that is on the counter, but don't do so very oftern.......

.....They know what is a permissable snack.


Oh, see, then this is much like my house. Except, if dd did not want what was on the table, she could also grab fruit from the counter and bring it to the table.

We don't have anything in the house that is not a permissable snack, lol. I just tell dd that I don't want to spend our hard earned money on food that won't nourish our bodies!


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

I would be very interested to hear this subject discussed by mothers from very poor/developing countries. I would really like to hear their opinions about the posts.

I was an extremely fussy eater as a child. Not to manipulate, not because I was spoiled. Eating in general was quite agonizing for me, there were very few foods I liked, and a great many I couldn't possibly eat. So, until I was about 9 or 10, my meals were mostly mashed potatoes and whatever veg was going with the dinner. I had to force myself to eat that, but at least I could eat it. My parents didn't pressure me, but didn't cook specially for me. If dinner did NOT include my edibles (most days it did), I had no problem whatsoever missing a meal. I was never hungry anyway. Sometimes babysitters tried the "no dessert unless you finish dinner" on me, and were always surprised that I didn't give a toss. Didn't want the dessert either. Didn't want to eat. Hated food. Now, as an adult, I can still go for days without eating if I am not careful.


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

OT- Just putting my 2 cents to say that we are another veggie loving family here. I think having a garden that my kids are involved in goes a long way towards encouraging veggie eating. In the summer my kids roam about eating raw kale, green beans, broccolli, tomatoes, arugula, chard, cucumbers, you name it. For sweets they graize on stevia, mint, lemon balm, blueberries, cherries and raspberries. They pull up beets, carrots, and turnips and harvest squash for dinner. We sit down for dinner and talk about what we grew or raised ourselves. I try to approach veggies as "yummy" foods, and my kids enjoy them. But I may just have naturally "easy" eaters, and it is important to keep that in mind.

More about food and control, we had a friend and her daughter for dinner once, serving soup, salad and bread (homemade, sprouted, whole wheat, etc). My friend and her dd got into a huge struggle because her dd wanted more bread and her mom wanted her to finish her soup first. My dd starts shoveling the bread in, thinking that this must be really special. My friends dd is watching my dd, and is upset because she is getting all she wants, and so I asked dd to slow down on the bread (something I don't ever do), and suddenly we are having a food issue. Needless to say, our usually pleasant, relaxed mealtime was awful. My friends mealtimes are always like that, so dh and I figured that sit-down dinners with that family was not something we want to repeat. I made a huge mistake in changing our food policy, and I should have asked the mom what she was comfortable with in advance (like maybe only putting one piece of bread on everyone's plates) to avoid being drawn into their struggle.

Edited because my darling ds posted my message before I was done.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

FarmerMama, I love your approach.

Don't we (kids included) just love to see and eat stuff that we grew ourselves?

I will do more of that this coming Spring


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Ah yes, dreaming of spring.


----------



## Terpatude (Nov 19, 2004)

My children know when they are hungry, and what they want to eat. I never force them to eat what I prepare, and I often will assist them in preparing another choice. I do not force them to take "just another bite".. How do I know when they are full??? They both seem to like a wide varitey of food, and dislike a lot of sweets except for Strawberry Rhubarb pie which is every one's all time favorite desert. The know thier bodie best. I never use food as a reward, punishment or power struggle..It is about nourishment.


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Yes my son does not like carrots but will eat them from the garden. It makes it more magical for kids.


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

But, Captain Optimisim, you LIKE lots of vegetables, so, I'm sure you would like supper at my house!









And my husband rarely gets excited about food, but, he likes almost all vegetables, and he was raised with the same rules I was, even a little stricter. He really likes most things that I've made.... unless they're... um.... "extra cooked"







I've discovered that I really like cooking too.

I meant "yucky" in the sense that I didn't like them as a child, and, some of them I'm not really that fond of now, but, I eat them because they are good for me. I even have a recipe for brussel sprouts that I like now!

My sisters liked more vegetables than I did as a child but have pretty terrible eating habits now. So, really, I don't think the "take a bite" rule or just eat from the table rule really matters much as far as future development goes, to me, it's about the nutrition, and, like I said, if I would have had it my way as a child, I would have eaten very very few things and I wouldn't have had a balanced diet. It's the balance and nutrients for me.

I realise that I was generalising about most children not liking veggies. From MY experience, most children don't like most vegetables, and I marvel at the folks who say they have children who love eating steamed rice with brocolli and salmon for supper with whole wheat breat, natural peanut butter and apples for dessert.

I really DO hope that we can instill that in our children. I plan on having more homemade sweets in the house than it sounds like here, but, there won't be any boxed things or white bread.

And, I hope I didn't offend people by commenting about the length of the thread, I have found the discussion interesting, I just don't see that much difference in the intent of the Mothers here, just a slight variation on the methods.

Trinitty.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

My son loooves vegetables, too, and tofu, beans and rice, etc ... even more than the taste of ice cream or chocalate (I never make a big deal out of sweets - ocaissonly I will have some and let him try as much as he wants, and interestingly its only a tiny lick or too.
I just wanted to say I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I think eating is a huge issue.
Last summer , my whole family enjoyed gardening ( and i think its a great learning expereince for my toddler), but only did tomatos - vegetable wise-
this year we have a large yard so i am planning to do a vegetable garden, anyone have any suggestions, links, or books, etc. about learning the basics about vegetable gardening and farming? thanks!

I know- I will look more in the other forums about gardening-- just wondering here since I have been reading this thread...............


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
The result is NOT the same whether they eat or not. If they eat they are full. If they don't eat, and are told that they may not have something else, then they are hungry and food has been withheld.

If they do eat they are told they can't have something else. Again, not punishment. If you don't eat ennough to be full: that is a textbook defintion of natural consequences.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
If you don't eat ennough to be full: that is a textbook defintion of natural consequences.

Right. And if you want more food and your parents won't give it to you because you didn't follow the rule of eating what you were supposed to, that is punishment.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Full Cream wrote:

Quote:

We have a variety of healthy snacks on offer throughout the day and they are not limited (occasionally we remind DD that x is for dinner and she chooses whether to fill up on crackers and dip/muffins/smoothie or to leave 'lots of space' for x ). If DD doesn't really eat much at dinner (which is rare because quite a lot of effort goes into planning meals so that there is at least a selection of food that she likes within the meal as a whole), she knows she can have as much fruit as she likes, and probably one of the available snacks before brushing her teeth (usually less than 1 1/2 hours after dinner finishes).
The way I read this, you were saying that unlimited snacks/alternatives were on hand for your child at all times. You cook a meal, and if she doesn't want that, she may go find something she wants instead, right then. No waiting until mom says she may get a snack.

If I misunderstood, and she actually may only eat if/when you give a specific time and approval, then you are right. You and maya both have a "eat what is on the table or get nothing until the next approved time" approach. I think that is not gentle or respectful.


----------



## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

totally off topic but musing mama- organic gardening/ farming/ permacultre is a huge passion of mine. Feel free to pm if you have any questions about how to get started, or I will look for you in the digging in the earth forum.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I feel like I'm reading Foodwise. :LOL

"It won't hurt Baby to wait 45 minutes until the next scheduled feeding--she certainly won't starve."

"Baby needs to learn to eat what is provided at the scheduled times--otherwise how will she ever learn to live with lunch hours and coffee breaks that are not provided at her whim."

"Baby must learn that crying or whining will not get her fed when and what she wants. Rudeness never pays."

"Accomodating Baby and catering to her every passing whim will only result in a spoiled, unpleasant child who seeks to manipulate and control her parents."

I'm with Heartmama, I don't see how some of these methods are respectful, gentle, or AP.







These are ultimatums and threats. How is "Eat or go hungry--I'm doing it for your own good," any different from the lines we hear about spanking? The m.o. is still to produce a desired behavior based on fear/pain/physical discomfort--not shared problem solving using respect and a handful of tactics/tools, nor getting to the root of the situation.

Sure, some people can Babywise/spank/control food/etc. and not have negative results. These instances still don't make it OK to me. It seems like the majority of results ARE negative and that ought to be enough for us to look at these methods critically.

I can understand how you might visualize a mealtime scenario with those elements because the adults aren't willing to get up and cook something else if a child expresses disastisfaction with what is served, but we don't have that here. I cook with the children's participation. They help set the table. They help serve the food. Then we all sit down. If it turns out they aren't hungry, don't want to eat or even try the food, they can simply leave the table and play instead. I've never offered to prepare them a different meal and they've rarely asked. It just isn't an equation. It's not "eat it or starve" in my house. Not at all.
But I do feel that it's a perfect balance of the needs of all family members to allow me, and anyone else who chooses, to eat our meal when it's hot and served rather than get up and make a whole new meal for the person who doesn't like what is served. There are times, as I posted earlier, when something simple can be tweaked to adjust the meal to everyone's taste. And if the child is too small to serve him/herself but old enough to make easy suggestions, I don't mind helping. As I posted earlier, the spinach gnocchi looked weird to my son and he wouldn't even take a bite. So he asked for "white" noodles and I was able to use the water that was still hot from the gnocchi to cook him up some angel hair while the rest of us ate. He waited patiently at the table and talked to us for the 3-5 minutes it took for his noodles to cook. He's 3 yrs old.
But when my daughter sits down to a quesadilla dinner and starts talking about how she loves lasagna and baba ganoush, I'm not going to jump up and make it for her. We just go along with it and talk about how tasty those foods are as well. And I get a little kick out of a 2 yr talking about how delicious baba ganoush is.
I also refuse to help them get the ice cream off the top shelf of the freezer when they want some at bedtime. They aren't going to starve. I offer them alternatives and tell them ice cream might give them a tummy ache if they eat it right before bed. Sure, I could let them eat it and then work really hard at not losing my cool while they run in circles and don't go to bed and then sleep fitfully. But that's really pushing my ability to cope and be a cool and calm parent and I think it's better for everyone that I set limits there.
Sorry for the rambling post, I just think limits and boundaries can be set around food situations in a gentle discipline manner.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I cook with the children's participation. They help set the table. They help serve the food. Then we all sit down. If it turns out they aren't hungry, don't want to eat or even try the food, they can simply leave the table and play instead. I've never offered to prepare them a different meal and they've rarely asked. It just isn't an equation. It's not "eat it or starve" in my house. Not at all.

And that's a totally different scenario than what some posters are advocating.

I see nothing wrong with a parent saying they want to eat their meal hot and asking the kid to wait a few minutes or get their own or offering to prepare something fast and easy. I think most kids raised with the assurance that their needs will be met would have no problem with respecting such a request. My kid has been OK with such types of compromise.

It is the rule that "you eat the dinner presented or you don't eat until the next scheduled feeding" that I take issue with.

And because it has been brought up that this conversation has gone on for a long time, and because I have participated in that, I would like to take a quick second and explain why I think this is so worth going over. Controlling food for kids is an extremely popular mainstream idea. Most parents do it and most people think that it is necessary and good and admirable. There are very few places where people can find evidence of parents who are not controlling their kids' food. I think it is important that on a message board devoted to fostering trust, creating attachment, and encouraging meeting the needs of children that AP parents be able to hear examples of that. It is one more choice in the toolbox--one doesn't HAVE to control food to have a child who is a "good eater." For the same reasons, I think it is important to challenge the notions of controlling food here. If people want to do that in their homes and everyone is happy, great. But, conversations like this, when I was new to this site and this paradigm shift, were really important to me--I hadn't really questioned so many of those mainstream ideals, hadn't heard arguments against them, and certainly wasn't aware of viable alternatives.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Kavamamakava























Thank you for explaining, literally word for word, what I've been trying to say (but failing miserably at apparently







!). What you do is excactly what we do here.

We have no food struggles. My children don't go to bed hungry. They only skip meals when they're ill and not eating anyway. They help shop for and prepare our food, set the table, and we eat together as a family. They eat what they like, ask for more (of what was cooked) if they're hungry or stop when they're full.

Establishing good, healthy eating attitudes and habits doesn't have to be about letting the child make all the decisions, and I totally agree that it falls under gentle discipline.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

double post


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

monkeysmom wrote:

Quote:

And because it has been brought up that this conversation has gone on for a long time, and because I have participated in that, I would like to take a quick second and explain why I think this is so worth going over. Controlling food for kids is an extremely popular mainstream idea. Most parents do it and most people think that it is necessary and good and admirable. There are very few places where people can find evidence of parents who are not controlling their kids' food. I think it is important that on a message board devoted to fostering trust, creating attachment, and encouraging meeting the needs of children that AP parents be able to hear examples of that. It is one more choice in the toolbox--one doesn't HAVE to control food to have a child who is a "good eater." For the same reasons, I think it is important to challenge the notions of controlling food here. If people want to do that in their homes and everyone is happy, great. But, conversations like this, when I was new to this site and this paradigm shift, were really important to me--I hadn't really questioned so many of those mainstream ideals, hadn't heard arguments against them, and certainly wasn't aware of viable alternatives.
I agree with this so much.

It is so, so important to review the why of a behavior.

If your baby sleeps through the night, why is CIO wrong?

If your child obeys, why is spanking wrong?

If your baby has grown well on a strict feeding schedule, why is it wrong?

Please pay careful attention to that last one.

Why is it important to follow baby's cues with feeding?

Because that is such a vital part of this discussion.

I do not see the natural evolution of demand feeding and child led weaning to be carefully planning, strictly enforced mealtimes.

I know that parents who have posted here urging us to rethink strict mealtime attitudes are:

Not getting up and down at meals either

We are enjoying a hot dinner too

We are not pleading on bended knee with a 3 year old on a six month pasta binge

We have healthy kids who eat a wide variety of foods

We have kids who enjoy food, don't obsess or worry, and are highly flexible

We take out kids out to eat and have a good time

That IS significant on a gentle discipline board. This IS the place to say it. Others can say differently. I don't respect those who have posted to say we shouldn't discuss this at all.

It is a bit like mocking the spanking debates since 'that isn't even real abuse'. Saying one issue doesn't matter since a more difficult problem exists does not solve either problem.

For the demand feeders and child led weaners:

When they were babies you respected their cues. Yet you still had an active role in the routine that grew between you. You may have offered alternatives here, distracted a bit there, as your child tolerated it, so that both of your needs were met. But if baby was hungry, bottomline, you fed them, without any hesitation that, when it came to eating, it was okay to feed the baby when the baby wanted to be fed.

And the thing is that this becomes EASIER, not harder, as kids get older, if you continue to have the same confidence in your child that you had in your baby.

Your child WANTS to be healthy. He WANTS to enjoy his food. And you know what else? He WANTS to enjoy eating with you! This is inborn. You do not have to instill it. Humans begin eating every meal with another person! That isn't coincidence. Sharing food with others is a hallmark of human culture.

Believe that, and you will be amazed at just how gently and respectfully you can handle whatever issues may arise in your house regarding food, in a way that meets both of your needs, without ever needing to create non negotiable rules and schedules that take away the child's freedom to decide when and what he wants to eat.

It is absolutely valid to discuss this here.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I am going over in my mind the things that _I_ wrote on this thread, and I see that I wrote that parents shouldn't buy food for their households that they themselves would not eat. After reading the link about the unschoolers who gave up controlling their children's food choices, I am thinking that this is actually a form of controlling food choices! But I still feel, from the perspective of coming from Jewish culture, that this is reasonable. I wouldn't want my child to eat non-kosher food, I don't see that there is much difference between refusing to have treif food and refusing to have food that as one poster put it, "isn't worth money in our food budget."

I think there is a difference between inculcating our values and controlling the basic needs and rights of an autonomous individual (the child.)

The other things I have taken away from this are that children like food that they have prepared, especially if they actually planted and grew it! This is exciting to me, because that's how I feel.

I have been scheming and plotting that as soon as my ds is old enough to have the attention span, that we will go visit the bakeries and farms where our favorite goodies are made. there is a great French-style bakery here in the area, they make delicious bread. There is a sheep-milk dairy up near where my MIL lives, we sometimes splurge on their yogurt. there is an organic kosher grape juice producer, I really want to see that vineyard! I would like to see these things myself. I also want to join a CSA for the same reason--he already gets into the summer farmer's market near us.

I've already got him reading cookbooks with me. He likes to identify pictures of vegetables and he can say "dough!" He has started to pat all baked goods from seeing me tap bread to find out if it's ready to come out of the oven. Heh.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I've read this entire thread and I realized something. Dinner time, not all meal/snack times, is our family time with food. It's nice if everyone is hungry at that time and I try to time it that way, but sometimes the kids snack too close to dinner and aren't even hungry. Or sometimes I take too long to cook and have to get creative and serve the kids something to eat before the meal is ready. Even so, my family's dinner is served as a social event and not primarily as a way to fill starving bellies. Maybe that's why I don't feel it's a big issue if the kids eat or don't eat or I ask them to wait while I eat if they want to eat something different from what is served (which rarely happens). I"m hungry at dinner time and I'm pregnant and nursing still and I'll start to shake and twitch if I wait too long.


----------



## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

OP- please forgive me for not reading the entire thread, I read the first page and the last 3 pages.

Here is what we have decided on in our house. I buy almost all healthy foods when I go grocery shopping, a few things that are not all that great too though- like I buy 4 half moon cookies when I go, and when I get home, we all have a treat of cookies and milk









So- snack times are determined by when each person is hungry, I have a fridge and cupboard full of healthy snack choices, so the kids and dh and I help ourselves to anything we want for snacks.

At mealtimes- breakfast, we tend to all eat whatever we want, cheerios and fruit, PB on whole wheat toast, left-over pancakes, etc.. The kids usually want whatever I am having (I have an almost 5 yo, a 3 yo and an almost 1 yo). Lunch time, I ask them what they want for a sandwhich usually, and they choose a fruit or fresh veggie from the fridge to go with it.

Dinnertime- I do make a specific meal each night. I ask the kids if they want what I am making, and if they don't I'll put out some yogurt and fruit and veggies, etc. They are never forced to try anything, or to eat anything. Sometimes they will think they want the taco I made (for example), after a few bites will change their minds, at that point, they can grab themeslves something, or wait until I have had a bit to eat, then I'll get them something else. I don't jump up, and I don't short order cook, but I do try to make sure everyone has something that they like to eat.

Dessert is not contingent on eating anything for supper.

I don't know- for me- it is just not worth it to argue foods with my kids, and if they can grab themselves something else, or wait a couple of minutes for me to eat a bit, I just don't see any reason why they can't have something else.

Our food budget is very tight, so we don't waste at all. Anything that is left over is eaten the next day for lunch by dh and me and sometimes the kids too. Anything that has been chewed and spit out is for the dog though :LOL.

Our way of doing things here, works for us and our kids eat really well most of the time. As a picky eater myself, I might have more understanding for kids and the stages they go through. I also know from being a picky eater- that I may do everything *right* in regard to food, and they still might be "picky". Ah well, there are worse things that being a picky eater







.

Food is one area where I have always been pretty easy going, but MDC in general, has made me really question the "why" of what we do, and makes me re-think everything, and say, "is this really an important issue?" "What am I trying to accomplish here?" I have decided that all bodily functions, eating, pottying, sleeping- will be decided by the individual, and are not something I want to argue/fight over.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

Even so, my family's dinner is served as a social event and not primarily as a way to fill starving bellies.
This is exactly what I said in my previous post and I think it is SO true and a healthy approach.

In our house meals times, especially dinners are our chance to re-connect, to talk about what we are going to do that day or what we have done. If my son eats or not is just _not an issue_. And being that he is only 3 sometimes he sits with us for the whole 1/2 an hour to 45 minutes. Other times he is up and gone in 5. We never comment on what he ate or how much he ate.

I also think there is an excellent point being made about involvement. My son helps set the table and he clears his own dishes. He grocery shops with me and helps pick out his own fruit and veggies. We talk about why we don't buy certain things and what are better alternatives. (You should see the crazy looks I get from other shoppers!) He sees me reading labels and also comparing prices. We talk about what's for dinner that week and what we need for lunches. He then sees the food we buy made into meals and often helps out in the kitchen. He loves to sprinkle cheese on the pizza, pour milk into the mixing bowl, get things out of the fridge, stirring, etc.

At 3 does he really connect all these things together? Who know? But I know he is being influenced by what he sees us doing with so many things why not our healthy approach to food?

Regarding the control issue: I read in another post (paraphrasing here) that not giving your kids certain food is a control issue and if they want to eat something they should be able to have it. Maybe it is controlling but I am sorry just because my son is mesmerized but the Clifford box of crap he sees in the grocery store doesn't mean I am going to given in and buy it. But I also buy very few foods he can't eat (booze, wine, my husbands disgusting power bars) so he is rarely denied any food in his own home. I also don't let him watch videos 24/7, watch any commercial TV or play on the computer whenever he wants. I don't let him hit people, use my sharp chefs knife (even though he really, really wants to!) or run with scissors. At 3 I make those choices for him. I realize all these are controlling him but is that necessarily _bad?_ Am I doing more long term damage then if I did let him eat junk or watch TV all day? As he gets older he will have more control. I'll teach him to use the knives, to make his own TV choices and choose when he wants to watch. I guess I just don't understand how you can raise a child with out _any_ control?


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
I guess I just don't understand how you can raise a child with out _any_ control?

Anyone else interested in discussing this in a new thread?







I think it could be great.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I guess I just don't understand how you can raise a child with out any control?
Two part answer:

1)My view of the last 13 pages is: the point of greatest disagreement regarding food here is whether a parent has the right to control *when* a child may eat. On this most people were very clear in how they felt. I am against it with a baby. I am against it with a child. I don't think you should have non negotiable "times" when a child may eat or not eat. Hunger is subjective. You cannot determine it by the clock.

When you say "Aha, my child didn't eat the noon meal. Now they wait until snacktime. It was there 'choice'" That is not a choice at all. You let the clock decide, not the child.

I think that was the greatest point of disagreement here.

2) to answer your question about raising a child without "control" in general, I think we may want to start a new thread *LOL*


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Here you go!









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...89#post2518189


----------



## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

I have not read any of the replies, so I am just answering the OP.
In my house I tend to make 2 or more different dinners every night. My Dh is Vietnamese and only likes asian cooking..I think asian food is gross. I like pasta, burgers, soup and sandwiches..you know normal stuff (lol) and my DH wont eat that cause he thinks my food is gross. So when I cook meals I cook two at a time. Our kids are 6 and 2 and my 2 year old will eat whatever is put in front of him, but my older DS has his own pickyness that I'm sure he gets from his dad and I. If he doesn't like anything his dad or I are having, then I'll ask him what he wants, and he helps make it. His list of foods that he will eat is not that long but at least it;s a healthy list.
Growing up I lived part time with my mom, and part time with my granparents. My mom would not let me leave the table till I ate all my meal, and if I sat there for more than 2 hours I had to go stand in the corner. AT my grandparents if I didn;t want to eat what was put on the table I didn't have to, and my Memere knew how picky I was about food, so she made sure to ask me while she was cooking if she needed to make something else for me. When I had my first DS my Pepere told me that if he ever see's me force feeding my baby boy he woudl be sad. I asked my aunt about what he said and she said that when I was a baby my mother would force me to eat my baby cereal by squeezing my cheeks so that my mouth would open. Yup, that sounds like my mommy dearest.
ANyway, I'm sure people will look down at the way meals are made at my house, but I don;t care. It works for us and as long as my kids are eating something, and it's a healthy choice, then that is what matters to us.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I didn't read the debate. I just thought I'd answer the OP.

It depends. Sometimes I'll have them come to the table and do blessing with us or read the blessing (we have a book of meal blessings we like to use) or just visit for a while even if they don't want to eat.

Sometimes I just let them play in the other room and hope that they won't need us too much so that the rest of us can just eat in peace.

(Then again..... Perhaps I am controlling but I do make decisions for my children. About food. Mostly about which choices they may have at any given moment. We had two of our children on a gluten-free diet for a while, too. That wouldn't have been possible if I didn't control what they could eat. I control sugar because I have one child who melts down if she eats much of it and the other don't handle it all that well, either. Sometimes I will have one child who is inclined to snack continually wait for dinner that is cooking when she really wants a snack, so long as I know this child hasn't had to wait too long. I really am capable of using fair and reasonable judgement with that. I believe that it is my responsibility as a parent to make decisions for my children and to gradually reduce and change that as they mature. I don't have to go to an opposite extreme to prove that some parents control their children too much. I know some do, and I don't believe that I do.)


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It happened again last night...

I made spicy chicken and spicy garbanzo beans and they were too spicy for the 3-year-old. So she had a banana and milk for dinner. (Her choice.) I think it would be abusive to make her eat spicy food, or to make some privilege contingent on it.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
It happened again last night...

I made spicy chicken and spicy garbanzo beans and they were too spicy for the 3-year-old. So she had a banana and milk for dinner. (Her choice.) I think it would be abusive to make her eat spicy food, or to make some privilege contingent on it.









Nor would I. I guess the difference with us is that if I was serving spicy chicken and spicy garbanzo beans our table would also have other things I knew they would tolerate: for example

*Fruit like grapes oranges and apples (which to me help "cool" a spicy meal for me anywasy)

*Rice made in a mild broth

*Cucumbers and Tomatoes

So, my kids are never totally stuck with something too spicy for them. Its not a big difference just a matter of how its done. And I think either way is OK. But I think that having many choices at the table make kids look more seriously at their choices and consider new foods. It also makes me less involved with their eating, since we don't have to discuss what they are eating. Which is not vital to raising a healthy child but is important to me.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
It happened again last night...

I made spicy chicken and spicy garbanzo beans and they were too spicy for the 3-year-old. So she had a banana and milk for dinner. (Her choice.) I think it would be abusive to make her eat spicy food, or to make some privilege contingent on it.









I agree. But I also wouldn't make an entire meal my toddlers would hate.







Whenever we offer new/untested foods, there's always something they want to eat on the plate too (in fact, I think this makes them MORE willing to try new things).


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
It happened again last night...

I made spicy chicken and spicy garbanzo beans and they were too spicy for the 3-year-old. So she had a banana and milk for dinner. (Her choice.) I think it would be abusive to make her eat spicy food, or to make some privilege contingent on it.









Yes that would be abusive to MAKE her but who knowingly makes a meal that they KNOW their child can not eat?? I can just see my sons face! "Honey I made XYZ but you won't like it, you can have banana instead." He would be hurt! But then again we make no judgements on foods. I might tell him its spicy but he can try it if he wants. (My son actually loves spicy foods. If I had not encouraged him when we had them who knows if he would have grown to love them?)

If I am going to make say Chicken francese which both my husband and I love but I know my son doesn't I make sure the balance of the meal contains items that he does like. I do the same with "new" foods, foods that my son has never had before. Like the pp said, this can actually encourage my son to try the "new" food!


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
If I am going to make say Chicken francese which both my husband and I love but I know my son doesn't I make sure the balance of the meal contains items that he does like. I do the same with "new" foods, foods that my son has never had before. Like the pp said, this can actually encourage my son to try the "new" food!


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Yes that would be abusive to MAKE her but who knowingly makes a meal that they KNOW their child can not eat??
It was an experiment. Dh and I didn't know if we would like it either. It's one of my favorite things to do; cook and eat things I have never tried before. If no one likes it I make them whatever else they want. Dd just happened to want milk and a banana.

I don't require her to eat things she doesn't want, but I'm sure not going to give up my favorite foods or cooking hobbies. She knows she can have whatever she asks for.


----------



## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

My dd (4) has celiacs and a host of food allergies. She does not have the choice to eat alot of foods.

My husband and I do not allow foods that she cannot eat into our house. Her dietary needs really control our kitchen. (We do make a quickie run to the store after bedtime some nights tho).

That said, she eats alot of really cool stuff! She will happily devour a raw spinach salad if that is what she wants. We do not have the option to eat crap. Most processed foods are on our no no list. That said...she cycles. Occasionally if she is eating alot of fruit and other stuff high in sugar and carbs, that is all she wants, it is imperative for her to eat protein. So I have to limit the really sweet stuff by not buying more. We quit buying apple juice because she could not control herself with it and she quit eating other things because she was filling up pn apple juice. Now, aj is a treat. I do control some issues of food in this house by simply NOT purchasing certain items because it is absolutely necessary for her health.

That said, I keep a cabinet in the kitchen that has stuff she can reach and eat. She serves herself. It is full of nuts, dried fruit, fruit leather and other healthy snacks. There is a bowl of fruit on the table. She helps herself to an apple, pear, banana or whatever seasonal fruit is laying around.

Eating dinner is optional. I would never make her eat something. She does occasionally claim she does not like somethign based on its looks. I tell her that if she takes ONE bite, I will leave her alone. She usually winds up finishing whatever it is.

I help her make her own plate and she can either eat it or not. If she is hungry, there are a host of healthy snacks available.

The only time I fix more than one meal (I cook 100% of our food from scratch) is when Dh and I have a hankerin for something that is NOT kid friendly, like really spicy pad thai. Then I usually cook some pre-made meatballs and sauce or something for her and she eats them with the rice I cooked to go with our Thai or Indian food.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
It was an experiment. Dh and I didn't know if we would like it either. It's one of my favorite things to do; cook and eat things I have never tried before. If no one likes it I make them whatever else they want. Dd just happened to want milk and a banana.

I don't require her to eat things she doesn't want, but I'm sure not going to give up my favorite foods or cooking hobbies. She knows she can have whatever she asks for.

I too love to cook and experiment with food. My son loves to take part. I guess I just don't see what that has to do with this?







How does adding something to the menu interfere with your ability to cook? How does it make you give up your favorite foods?? I make things I love all the time that my son may not care for, that was the example I used before about Chicken Francese. I also make things I know he loves that I don't really care for (organic whole wheat Annies) I make sure that the rest of menu is to my liking.

What you said was that you made 2 spicy dishes and that "they were too spicy for the 3-year-old" not that she didn't want to eat it. When I try new foods (my new favorite is duplicating the awesome Szechwan I get in my local china town) is to counter the real spicy prawns (or whatever) with a milder dish that is not new to my son and plain brown rice. Again, maybe because meals times for us are so much more than just food but my son would feel left out if he came to the table and I said "sorry, nothing here for you tonight. How about a bowl of cereal?" To me that just seems to discount his feelings and ignores his input into the family meal time.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
maybe because meals times for us are so much more than just food but my son would feel left out if he came to the table and I said "sorry, nothing here for you tonight. How about a bowl of cereal?" To me that just seems to discount his feelings and ignores his input into the family meal time.











I would go even further to say that whenever I cook anything untested in our kitchen (not knowing if dd or ds, much less dh or I, will like it) I ALWAYS provide something else at that meal that I know we do like. So just because I love to experiment with new recipes doesn't mean my kids have to grab a banana for dinner.

It's no wonder when presented with a brand new dish of totally foreign flavoring no less that a 3 year-old would get balky and avoid the whole meal altogether. Where's the "child's choice" in that?!?! So if I make liver and onions (something my kids hate) even night for dinner and they get to "choose" a yogurt or banana instead, that's what people were talking about when they said how important it is not to impose our will on our children?







In my house, serving some new spicy beans alongside some rice pilaf and popular steamed vegetables would ensure everyone was happy at suppertime (and I can practically guarantee my kids would try the beans to boot).


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

How does adding something to the menu interfere with your ability to cook? How does it make you give up your favorite foods??
Because some say we should just have one dinner for the whole family and not cook foods that some people in the family do not like. That would interfere with our enjoyment - dh likes pork and beans, which I do not like. He and dd like to eat chili, again which I do not like. I like alfredo sauce, which dh is not that into. We all get to have the foods we want and refuse the foods we don't want.


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I think the idea that cooking an entire meal that is KNOWN to be distasteful to the rest of the family is a hard one to take, just from a simple repsect for others perspective. If I wanted fettucini alfredo for example but no one else liked it, I would keep the noodles and the sauce separate b/c everyone here loves noodles, and prepare some chicken breasts to have on the side. Everyone would be eating the same meal, but I'd get to have my special sauce that everybody else hated. This isn't cooking two (or three or four) different meals, and it's not making everyone else fend for themselves for supper either.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Reading these last few posts, it really sounds to me like effectively the same approach, but described differently?

I mean, I can look at Greaseball's posts and say "yes, that is what we do".

But then I read Maya or Periwinkle or Hollybear and say "yes, that is what we do."

Basically, everybody gets to eat something they like. Whether it is presented as the main meal or not, the child could feel very respected either way, imo. Or very disrespected, depending how it is handled. Sounds like all of the kiddos here feel very respected by the approach in their home, so what is the problem?

For example, sure, if the main meal is distasteful to the child they could feel "left out". But, in these cases, I (and apparently Greaseball







) talk to dd and get something yummy for her--and she feels very respected, indeed.

Or, in some families, the child must eat what is on the table (no other options). My first reaction is that the child would might feel disrespected because, well, what if s/he does not like it? But, in the cases on this thread, the parent knows their child well and makes sure that there are appealing choices already on the table for the child, and the child feels respected this way as well.

It seems like a very small distinction to me. Either way, the child is eating something s/he enjoys. One method just provides a bit more choice for the child. But, if the meal preparer and child are both happy, then where is the problem?


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
*Because some say we should just have one dinner for the whole family and not cook foods that some people in the family do not like.* That would interfere with our enjoyment - dh likes pork and beans, which I do not like. He and dd like to eat chili, again which I do not like. I like alfredo sauce, which dh is not that into. We all get to have the foods we want and refuse the foods we don't want.

Who said that? I know that I didn't. Have you even been reading what I have posted? Where did anyone say never to cook foods that some people don't like?? I am so confused by your round about arguments.

I guess in my family we all have a say in the meal making process. No one is denied foods they like that others don't (whole wheat annies) and no one is ever forced to eat things they don't (chicken Frances). It is a respect issue in our house. All relationships are about compromise.

Another example of respect: My son and I LOVE egg salad. The smell of it alone makes my husband gag. Do my son and I just stop eating something we love? Of course not, instead we have it when Dad is not home. How respectful would it be to say "Gee, honey, I know this stuff make you sick but tough luck WE love it so here's a banana."? I see the fact that you knowingly made two items that were "too spicy for a 3 year old" as not very respectful. But again, I have to say, that we need to agree to disagree.


----------



## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Disclaimer: I only read the first page, and I'm responding to the OP







:

We have two on solids (21M & 3.5) and our approach is to never have any control or say over their food. I completely trust that their bodies know what it wants and needs, and they will not starve themselves.

We dont' keep "junk" food in the house- there is no mac n' cheese or hot dogs. I think these types of foods kids might ask for again and again, aside from what their bodies need. But if everything in the house is relatively healthy I believe they'll eat what they need as they need it.

I often employ their help choosing what to make for meals so it isn't often that they reject what we made to ask for something else- but if they did I would let them eat it. As long as there aren't "junk" (relative term I know) options in the house- than I know the alternative will be healthful.

We put the food on the table each meal. The kids eat what they want and leave what they don't. We don't comment or discuss their food intake. And if we decide to make a fun dessert treat after dinner they get it regardless of what they ate earlier. But that is random, and there is no expectation of that.

I've even let them eat a slice of apple pie before dinner because it was there and they were dying to try their creation. I guess I figure that type of situation is rare and it won't kill them. They both still ate dinner.

We've also never labelled foods as "like" or "dislike" it is simply something they are in the mood for or are not. They can reject a food 16 times, there is no discussion they simply leave it on their plate, but I keep putting it there and eventually they choose to eat it.


----------



## SAHMinHawaii (Jun 2, 2004)

Wow your family's eating habits, rules what you will sounds alot like mine to a T. I have a almost 3 year old and a 9 month old. My 9 month old is pretty much EBF, not pushing solids because i trust that she knows what is best. I offer but never force it. My toddler has a very adult taste for foods. Since she could talk she would ask for healthy snacks because that is what she was used to. To this day she will ask for a apple, cheese, carrots, etc instead of a chocolate cookie that MIL brings. People are shocked to find that she will eat any fruit or veggie you put in front of her. She loves meat, cheese and bread. We sit down for every meal together. We all have the same but in different portions. She eats what she wants and when she if finished we let her down to play quietly. many times she will come back and eat more or ask for a alternative and sit back down. She has very healthy eating habits and is a healthy weight. We all eat dessert if we make it that night and like many it doesnt matter if you didnt eat all your peas or not. Anyway i agree with you completely.







You said what i was going to..









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I am facinated by how much passion food debates create on this website. This is certainly not the frist multi-page thread about how to handle meal/food refusal. But on to the question.

First, each family is different and kids are different. Here is what has worked (well, I think) at our house. Maybe it might provide some ideas for others. Not that it's very different from what others have already said.

Either my DH or myself cooks dinner. We have an almost 2 YO and a 5 YO. Its very important for us to have a family dinner each night, and we all start with the same things on our plates. If either child decided they don't want something, regardless of why or what, they can get an alternative item. Even my 22 mo. old can open the fridge and get cheese or yogurt (to replace a protein) or a piece of fruit from the bowl (to replace a veggie). There are lots of reasons that I don't want to be a short-order cook, not the least of which is that I want to enjoy my dinner while it is hot too. Its one of the few "self care" items that I have made a priority.

If they are simply not hungry, then they can go back to playing until others are finished, as long as they have sat down with us and said grace.

Dessert is a separate "meal" and is not contingent on eating dinner. For us, this eliminates the "http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=11&k=ice%20cream" onmouseover="window.status='ice cream'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">ice cream</a> is better than peas" issue because they aren't connected to each other at all.

We have always cooked an enormous variety of food at our house and our kids are pretty good about trying stuff. And they love lots of things that other children don't--the more expensive the better it seems. When they say "I don't like it" and mean "I haven't tried it but it looks funny", that's OK. Maybe next time it will look more familiar and they will go on to try it. I think it probably helped that they see interesting, different food from the time they started solids. My sons favorite veggie as a young toddler was artichokes, and boy were people stunned when they saw him eat one! I've never cooked special for the kids. When they were just starting solids (well, after the one-at-time period), I would just grind up the veggie of the day, so I think they don't expect it.

We don't, however, allow "fits of temper" at any time, and at the table is no exception. I think demanding a different food, throwing a tantrum, or whatever, around food is an issue about that behaviour, not about food per se, and should be dealt with the same way you would deal with them at any other time.

Anyway, that's mealtime at our house, for what its worth.

I think its important for us to respect our children, but it is a two-way street. So, I respect their "I'm full", "I don't like it" or whatever. But they need to respect "Mommy is eating her dinner and you need to do it yourself" as well.


----------

