# People not watching their kids....



## JD5351 (Sep 13, 2008)

I took off early from work today, and decided to get my grocery shopping done tomorrow, since my day off is tomorrow and I want to be lazy.









I was walking down an aisle, and felt a little tap on my back. I look back, and it's a little boy. He was scared, and said he could not find his mom. I asked what his mom's name was and took him to the customer service desk to have her paged.

I waited with him, (didn't want to leave him alone again. poor guy.) and 10 minutes later







: his mom finally shows up, talking on her cell phone..I heard her say something about her son got himself lost...WHAT??He didn't get HIMSELF lost, SHE lost HIM by being too preoccupied to keep track of him.

I don't know how long he was lost, but it took about 2 mins for me to walk him up to the front of the store, about 3 mins before someone came to the counter to help us, and TEN for her to bother with coming to get him. That's 15 mins not counting however long he was wandering before he decided to ask a STRANGER for help.

I started to say something, but the customer service girl beat me to it. She asked her if she ever watches the news. Bad things can happen to kids when their not being protected. The mother said, "Thank you," and left.

I feel sick.


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

I spent three years in Salt Lake City for grad school and I lost track of the number of lost children I found. I used to hang out in an aisle of the store to see how long it would take people to come back for their kids (little kids like 2-4 years old). Sometimes it was 5 minutes or more. I had never experienced anything like that before.

The most memorable incident though was when one morning I was sitting on my couch doing home work when a 4 year old kid walked in my front door and asked where his dad was. Apparently his dad had gone to a store about 2 blocks away and left his 4 and 5 year olds in the car alone. They decided to go look for dad. I was just thankful he walked in my house and not a pedophile's. We were calling the police when the dad showed up. I freaked out on him but he didn't seem to understand what the big deal was.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JD5351* 
I waited with him, (didn't want to leave him alone again. poor guy.) and 10 minutes later







: his mom finally shows up, talking on her cell phone..I heard her say something about her son got himself lost...WHAT??He didn't get HIMSELF lost, SHE lost HIM by being too preoccupied to keep track of him.

Were you there when he got lost?

When ds1 was little, he frequently took off on me when we were grocery shopping. I wasn't "too preoccupied" - I was incapable of physically holding onto him, and my basket, and whatever I was taking off the shelf, all at the same time. He'd bolt. I'd go after him, but he was faster than me. On at least three occasions, he managed to actually get lost, and once he went to customer service.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I'll be honest, when I was younger my mom would let me stay in the toy aisle (single aisle, not SECTION) while she shopped nearby...but I wasn't 2-4 years old, I was probably closer to 6. If I left that aisle I knew I'd get in BIG trouble (we did timeouts and restriction of privileges)
My mom had long hair (down her her ankles at one point) and would keep it in a braid for me to hang on when we were out...when my brother came along he would hold on to the braid and I would loop a finger through her belt loop. She ALWAYS knew where we were.

My biggest pet peeve? When parents don't watch their kids IN THE PARKING LOT! I get nervous driving in parking lots because I never know if some unattended child is going to dart out in front of me. I also hate it when kids are unattended and create havoc in the store. I've seen many kids throwing items on the floor and making a mess of things because mom doesn't seem to see it. I've also almost run over children with a heavy shopping cart because they ran all over and weren't paying attention.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
My mom had long hair (down her her ankles at one point) and would keep it in a braid for me to hang on when we were out...when my brother came along he would hold on to the braid and I would loop a finger through her belt loop. She ALWAYS knew where we were.

My biggest pet peeve? When parents don't watch their kids IN THE PARKING LOT! I get nervous driving in parking lots because I never know if some unattended child is going to dart out in front of me.

Your mom wasn't attending you, by the standards of preventing a child from darting out into the parking lot. I've had kids dart into the parking lot several times. In _every one of those cases_, I was actually holding said child by the hand, and they suddenly jerked loose, and dashed. If all they were doing was holding my belt loop or braid, they'd have just had an even bigger head start. Not having a child under complete physical control every second doesn't necessarily mean the child is unattended. Believe me, I do my best to control them in parking lots - I know how many people think a parking lot has the same speed limit as the street.

Why do so many parents find it so entertaining to pass judgment on other parents, without having a _clue_ what was actually happening during the particular incident under examination?


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm one of those people who can't stand it when children run unattended. I have a wanderer, too, and I've never lost him. I hold him, or I put him in a backpack, or I put him IN the cart, or a stroller, or something. I just don't put myself in the position of loosing him. I also work with my kids all the time about standing where I tell them to, holding hands, and staying with me.

I've often wanted to take a person's child around the corner, or to the service desk, or mostly, to the police station, just to show them how easily they could loose their child. I know I'd be arrested, but I wish I could work out a deal with the police station to do it. I just don't think people realize how easy it could be for someone to walk away with their child.

I saw a man at the mall a few days ago. He mentioned to the checker at one store that he was babysitting for the last 2 weeks, something about the mom being in jail...
Anyway, I saw them in several stores throughout the mall, and that little girl was EVERYWHERE. NO WAY he could have known where she was. Actually, I even heard him asking the checkers for help finding her SEVERAL times. She, good for her, was at least staying in the same store as him. I think she was about the same age as ds...20 months or so! Arg.

This REALLY bothers me. Can you tell?

I mean, I understand how one could slip away accidentally from even the most cautious parent, but OVER AND OVER.

Wow.


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## JD5351 (Sep 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Were you there when he got lost?

When ds1 was little, he frequently took off on me when we were grocery shopping. I wasn't "too preoccupied" - I was incapable of physically holding onto him, and my basket, and whatever I was taking off the shelf, all at the same time. He'd bolt. I'd go after him, but he was faster than me. On at least three occasions, he managed to actually get lost, and once he went to customer service.

I wasn't there when he got lost, but the fact that at least 15 mins past (and 10 after her full name was paged over the intercom.) She didn't seem in the least upset or concerned. I understand if your hands are full, and he takes the opportunity to take off...The difference is you went AFTER him, and found him. When they called you from customer service, I imagine you didn't wait 10 minutes to go get him. That's hat grosses me out...Maybe I'm weird, but I would have thought there would be even a slight amount of "OMG there you are! I've been looking for you!" in her attitude.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Your mom wasn't attending you, by the standards of preventing a child from darting out into the parking lot. I've had kids dart into the parking lot several times. In _every one of those cases_, I was actually holding said child by the hand, and they suddenly jerked loose, and dashed. If all they were doing was holding my belt loop or braid, they'd have just had an even bigger head start. Not having a child under complete physical control every second doesn't necessarily mean the child is unattended. Believe me, I do my best to control them in parking lots - I know how many people think a parking lot has the same speed limit as the street.

Why do so many parents find it so entertaining to pass judgment on other parents, without having a _clue_ what was actually happening during the particular incident under examination?

I was referring to the store with the belt loop/braid thing...in the parking lot we knew better than to run off. It was just the way we were brought up. We wouldn't have gotten spanked or anything...but I don't remember ever running around while in the parking lot. That was a good way to get to stay home or, before it became against the law, in the car. I'm not saying it was the BEST way to handle it...

There's a difference between "I saw the mom holding on and the kid ran off" and "The kid wasn't anywhere NEAR mom in the store/parking lot and all she did was half heartedly yell for them to come back." 9 times out of 10 you can tell the difference between parents that are paying attention and the parents that just let their kids run wild


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

How old is the kid approximately?


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## FiveLittleMonkeys (Jan 21, 2009)

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've never had one of my kids run off while at a store or in a parking lot. Not even when they were little. We taught them early on that either you are holding a hand, or your "hands are on the van," in the parking lot. When grocery shopping, the baby went into the sling, the 2 yo went into the shopping cart seat, and the other two (ages 4 and 6) - all I had to say to them was, "Hands on the cart, ladies." They range in age from 7 to 14 now, and still we have the little two by the hands and the older two stay together.

Last month when my husband and I were coming back from dinner, we saw a little girl on the side of the road. Barefoot, no adult. We stopped and asked her if she was lost, and she said that her mother had left her to go to someone's house. She was able to take us to where she lived (about 2 blocks away). The mother was not home, and the neighbors said that she does this frequently. We called the police, who responded immediately. Several minutes later, a cell phone number for the mother was obtained, and she was called. It still took her over 45 minutes to get home.

I don't know who does this, but I really wanted to say to the lady, "In the span of time from when we found your daughter to when you got home, we could have been to the airport and GONE, and you never would have known until the next day." (the excuse was that the little girl, age 5, was supposed to be spending the night at a friend's house, but the mother had not taken her there - apparently, she was just supposed to make her way there by herself).

I know that there are times that kids get away, but most people realize it immediately and start looking for their kid. When parents don't, THAT is when I have a problem.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

I agree that the mother's reaction was a little odd. I would be in a panic and beside myself. I, too, have a child who bolts, so please don't automatically blame a mom for not watching close enough. It happens to the best of us.

I am also wondering how old the child was. Obviously old enough to ask for help.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

UGH. I hate when stuff like that happens. My personal fave is when I go to the mall play area and notice that one kid there doesn't appear to have a mom. Usually said kid is there for at least 1/2 an hour before mama comes waltzing down the mall with her arms heavy with shopping bags. Nice. In one particular case the kid was five, told me how he'd just gotten out of karate class and then proceeded to try and drop-kick my two year old 20 lb daughter.

What is with people?


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

I used to work at a large department store, and we had a woman that would come in and leave her child in the toy department while she did the rest of her shopping. He was about four. On two different occasions other customers brought the boy to the service desk and I had to page the mom to come get him (I only worked there four months). He didn't know his mom's name, so I had to page "Owen's mom" (that isn't his real name... I don't even remember it now).

In my time there I had my share of scared lost children, and frantic parents looking for their child. Nobody else was as nonchalant about the whole thing as this mother and son.

So absolutely, kids run off, and I wouldn't consider the parents to be "at fault". But there are definitely parents out there who have no problem leaving their young children unattended in a large, busy store.

Either way, it really scares me half to death.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Why do so many parents find it so entertaining to pass judgment on other parents, without having a _clue_ what was actually happening during the particular incident under examination?

Not just other parents, other _mothers_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
But there are definitely parents out there who have no problem leaving their young children unattended in a large, busy store.

This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

Can't we just accept that different people have different comfort zones, and that we don't know anyone else's full story, and just lay off the judgmental shaming please? There's a huge and important difference between "I wouldn't" and "how could she??"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

30+ years ago, lots of kids ran around in stores. I remember playing all through the clothing section of Woolco with my sister. We hid out in the clothing racks, and frequently found other kids doing the same thing. A few years later, we'd play hide and seek behind the hanging rugs in Sears. It was the norm. I've seen a huge difference just between the time when ds1 was little and now. My mom doesn't say much about it, but I know she finds modern parenting a little overprotective in that area, and so do many others of her generation.

All that said...I've worked with my kids on holding hands from the time they were toddlers - all three of them. The only one who has taken it seriously enough not to bolt is dd. DS1 wasn't terrible. DS2 is _awful_. He has no impulse control at all, and it doesn't matter how often we discuss it, or how quickly I grab him and bring him back. He just does _not_ get it. He sees something or thinks of something, and he's gone. I can tell reading this thread that most of you feel that anybody who was as good a parent as you are wouldn't have this happen. That's very nice for you. Maybe you're even right, but I guess we're not all that great.

Just1More: It's quite possible that man is just plain not used to kids and hasn't figured out how to keep an eye on her. Most of us have the opportunity to adjust to our kids as they develop, but this man's situation sounds a bit different. He may not even be the dad.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I was born in 1981, and I remember doing the hiding-in-the-racks things by the time I was, oh, 5. So that was maybe 20 years ago. But it's not like my parents didn't have some idea where I was, and vice versa; we pretty much always were within the same department, knew what to do if we got separated, knew our parents' names, etc. Nor was I an unholy terror pulling things down (though some kids are just like that, both then and now, _usually_ through no fault of their parents'). But they'd be Bad Parents if they did that today.









It's a fascinating phenomenon.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

You know, we like to go to bookstores a lot. When we enter the store my kids automatically go to the kids section. I have a few sections that I like to check out myself and I take a few minutes before I join my kids in the kid section. My biggest concern is not that they will be kidnapped, but that I will be judged as a bad mother. Seriously, I head to the kids section thinking that everyone is going to be wondering where the mother of those unsupervised kids is, not that my kids need me or are in trouble. Instinctively I feel that my kids are fine. It's the judgement that worries me more.
Sounds crazy, I know.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

i think the worst part about the OP's story is that the kid was outside of _his_ comfort zone.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamarootoo* 
i think the worst part about the OP's story is that the kid was outside of _his_ comfort zone.

Of course he was - the poor child was lost. I just object to the assumption that the mother lost him, because she was "too preoccupied" to look after him properly. It might be true, but we don't know that. (I might add that I was frequently more preoccupied than I should have been when ds1 was small...it's not always something the mom can do anything about.)

Arwyn: Yeah - my mom always knew more-or-less where we were, and we didn't wreck the racks, either. I saw an occasional child who did, but not many.


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## JD5351 (Sep 13, 2008)

I didn't ask him how old he was, but if I had to guess, he looked to be about 4 or maybe a small 5.

I don't mean to make anyone feel like I'm saying they're bad people. I don't mean that at all.


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## fairydoula (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I was born in 1981, and I remember doing the hiding-in-the-racks things by the time I was, oh, 5. So that was maybe 20 years ago. But it's not like my parents didn't have some idea where I was, and vice versa; we pretty much always were within the same department, knew what to do if we got separated, knew our parents' names, etc. Nor was I an unholy terror pulling things down (though some kids are just like that, both then and now, _usually_ through no fault of their parents'). But they'd be Bad Parents if they did that today.









It's a fascinating phenomenon.

Very interesting.
I think there are way too many judgemental parents on all points of the spectrum.
If parents are too permissive, other parents have a problem with that. Some are very strict, and other parents are horrified by that.
I was born in the very early 70's and we did LOTS of things unattended as kids. We used to ride miles on our bikes to spend our allowance on Saturday afternoons at the quikie mart. It was no where NEAR my mom's eyesight or range of hearing. I was a good 5 minutes away by car, winding through the neighborhood. I did this as young as 10 and 11 yrs old.
Today, some busybody would call the police because there were unattended kids bicycling!! Oh, the horror!

I agree that it's pretty horrible that that mom didn't come for her kid quickly, and seemed to be very nonchalant about it. Sad.
But overall, I'm really sick of the freak-outs who constantly butt their noses in, in inappropriate ways.
When we first moved to our new house, in town, with lots of nosy but not friendly neighbors, they called THE POLICE because my daughters were riding their bikes ON THE SIDEWALK TWO HOUSES DOWN from our house! I was THERE, watching them, but the people who called didn't bother to walk out of their house and see me, watching my kids playing and getting to know their new neighborhood.
What jerks. It would have been a simple matter to look outside and wave and ensure the kids were being watched.
But instead, the couch potatoes called 911 because little kids were playing "unattended".
Ridiculous!
A total waste of taxpayer money and time.
Not heros, not responsible people... just LAZY busybodies!
The first thing I'd do if there was a kid walking around outside MY house "unattended" is walk outside and look up and down the sidewalk to see where the parent was. I've done it before and I'll always do what I can to help out another parent... not frantically freak out and call the police because little johnny got away from mom by a house-length.
The expectations of some people today are beyond absurd and completely exclude the idea of neighbors and of people acting decently.... if you see a lost kid, help that kid find it's mom or dad... dont freak out and call the cops, for godsake... can't YOU find their mom or dad with them?
This is what people used to do. I fell off my bike in front of a neighbor's house when I was little and hurt my head. The neighbor was nice and called my mom and she came and got me. The neighbor didn't assume because my mom wasn't trailing behind me with a big safety mat, that she was a bad parent. She assumed, rightly, that I was just a kid, out playing, who got hurt, as kids do. She gave me a tissue for the little cut and waited for my mom. No big deal.
In fact, we couldn't get away with ANYthing in our neighborhood, because people KNEW each other and socialized and had each other over for dinner or BBQ's or block parties. We trick o treated at each others' houses. We traded Avon catalogues and went to each other's tupperware parties. We watched each other's kids and kept an eye on each other's houses when on vacation. We would take in the mail, get the paper, water the lawn or plants. People were NEIGHBORLY, even if at the grocery store or at the mall. NO one was busy passing judgements or tsk tsking... everyone was helpful and nice and would put themselves in that person's shoes.
I know, I'm making it sound like mayberry, USA, but it was a lot nicer knowing that if I needed something, I could get it from a neighbor, whether it was help with a flat bike tire or to use their bathroom, or pick their persimmons off their front tree... people interacted with each other in a neighborhood and knew each other by name at the grocery store.
If I DID get lost in a store I knew to ask the clerk for help and usually mom was just an isle or two away... no drama, just nice, normal people acting normally....

I'm getting older and crotchety, I suppose, but I think if people aren't willing to be helpful, then just shut up. There's no point in berating people... they will simply get defensive and ignore you. If you have helpful advice, present it in a way that parents, especially moms, don't feel beat up with... moms get enough of that from EVERYwhere.. the media, other moms, society in general, their bosses, their kids!, their daycare, their church... often moms never feel like they can measure up.... and then if you lose your kid in the store... now you're a villan....
Maybe we can all lighten up and walk a little more in each other's moccasins. Bad things happen, yes. If you can help prevent it, please, by all means, do. But don't rake a mom over the coals for losing her kid... for all you know she didn't hear the announcement and was frantically searching the back room or outside or whatever, before she realized where her kid was...
Just playing devil's advocate... you just never know where people are coming from....


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairydoula* 
Very interesting.
I think there are way too many judgemental parents on all points of the spectrum.

i absolutely agree that parents at all ends of the spectrum are too judgmental. i think it's in everybody to have an "us vs. them" attitude once in a while. it is easy in a place like MDC where most people are like-minded in many core values (values that are generally not the norm in our society) to take the spirit of camaraderie and the sense of validation we feel a step too far into judgement and condemnation of other people.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Of course he was - the poor child was lost. I just object to the assumption that the mother lost him, because she was "too preoccupied" to look after him properly. It might be true, but we don't know that.

But we do know she was preoccupied, she was chit chatting on the phone telling someone her son 'got himself lost' and to top it off she wasn't worried at all.

Kids bolt from their parents, it happens. MOST parents get worried and chase after them but, in this case the mother didn't seem to care and was having a conversation on the cell phone. It's when the parent(s) don't seem to care, aren't worried or actively looking for their child(ren).


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

It really makes a huge difference how old the child is and what he's like etc. My son started going off on his own more and more in stores at around age 8. He likes to run and hide and 'spy' like a ninja sometimes. I don't worry if he gets lost because he'll go and ask for the workers to call me on the PA, I go get him and we continue on our way. It's really not a big deal to me or to him aside from a bit of dramatic license he may take.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Maybe she "didn't care" because _she didn't think it was a big deal_. Maybe because it's happened 50 times before. Maybe because her son knew what to do about it. Maybe because she hasn't read all the "kidnappers are in EVERY STORE" books. Maybe because she hates him and didn't want to be a parent at all. _We don't know._


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Maybe she "didn't care" because _she didn't think it was a big deal_. Maybe because it's happened 50 times before. Maybe because her son knew what to do about it. Maybe because she hasn't read all the "kidnappers are in EVERY STORE" books. Maybe because she hates him and didn't want to be a parent at all. _We don't know._

....or maybe kids run from their parents because they hate their parents?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
....or maybe kids run from their parents because they hate their parents?









I kinda doubt those same kids would then go and ask for help finding the hated parent within 10 minutes of running from them.







:


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I kinda doubt those same kids would then go and ask for help finding the hated parent within 10 minutes of running form them.







:









right, sarcasm kinda gets lost on the net


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 







right, sarcasm kinda gets lost on the net









you quoted my typo







:


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
you quoted my typo







:

ooooo, them's fightin' words









OK, commence the discussion....


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I would be really concerned that this mother WASNT. thats terrible. my kids have never done this, but I can understand how it might be something that happens even if a parent isnt preoccupied - like if they run off - but she didn't NOTICE? and 15 minutes? and she didnt seem to care? that is terribly sad.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I would be really concerned that this mother WASNT. thats terrible. my kids have never done this, but I can understand how it might be something that happens even if a parent isnt preoccupied - like if they run off - but she didn't NOTICE? and 15 minutes? and she didnt seem to care? that is terribly sad.

But it makes such a big difference at least to know how old the kid is! Not to mention all the other info not available to us.

ETA: although, in light of your username, you probably never have this problem. (heehee)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I'd be concerned if the child was under the age of 10 at least. my little brother is 10. this poster could have kidnapped this child. that is reason enough to be concerned. if your child is going to a STRANGER for help because they are being lost, they are putting trust in that adult to help them, and the child is then at risk for abduction.

add to the fact even if the kid yelled screaming the store the person could act like its a tantrum... since people usually DO stay out of it. I will have to find the link or maybe someone else has it but this theory was tested with a child screaming "your not my mommy!! you're not my mommy!" and the people just kept walking.

I'm not really sure what missing info could chance my mind about this. maybe not impossible, but going on what I heard I find this concerning. Apparently the lady at the customer service desk found the situation unsafe as well, so it wasn't just the OP.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Maybe she "didn't care" because _she didn't think it was a big deal_. Maybe because it's happened 50 times before. *Maybe because her son knew what to do about it.* Maybe because she hasn't read all the "kidnappers are in EVERY STORE" books. Maybe because she hates him and didn't want to be a parent at all. _We don't know._


what to do about it? go to a stranger? if he knew what to do they would have a meeting place if they got separated or he would know to go to the front desk or ask staff for help - not a stranger.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
add to the fact even if the kid yelled screaming the store the person could act like its a tantrum... since people usually DO stay out of it. I will have to find the link or maybe someone else has it but this theory was tested with a child screaming "your not my mommy!! you're not my mommy!" and the people just kept walking

I'll be honest and say that sometimes I don't know if I should get involved or not. I've seen some NASTY tantrums that involve screaming of all sorts. I'm afraid of getting sued or something if I intervene. I've heard of people suing for "defamation of character" over that kind of thing...

Don't get me wrong, if I saw blatant abuse (a beating for example) I'd probably speak up or at least get a manager or something...but a kid being dragged out of a store screaming? I'm unsure...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
It really makes a huge difference how old the child is and what he's like etc. My son started going off on his own more and more in stores at around age 8. He likes to run and hide and 'spy' like a ninja sometimes. I don't worry if he gets lost because he'll go and ask for the workers to call me on the PA, I go get him and we continue on our way. It's really not a big deal to me or to him aside from a bit of dramatic license he may take.

I'm glad he knows to go to a worker and not a random stranger.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I'll be honest and say that sometimes I don't know if I should get involved or not. I've seen some NASTY tantrums that involve screaming of all sorts. I'm afraid of getting sued or something if I intervene. I've heard of people suing for "defamation of character" over that kind of thing...

Don't get me wrong, if I saw blatant abuse (a beating for example) I'd probably speak up or at least get a manager or something...but a kid being dragged out of a store screaming? I'm unsure...

I doubt I would say anything either!! sorry if it seemed like that way my point. my point was that most people wouldn't say anything about it, which is why I wouldn't want my child to get lost in the store! and I would totally care if they did!


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Well, you don't need to be concerned about my parenting







And my (now) 9yr old goes off on his own every so often and it really isn't a concern for us. I'm a pretty doting and attentive parent too.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JD5351* 
I took off early from work today, and decided to get my grocery shopping done tomorrow, since my day off is tomorrow and I want to be lazy.









I was walking down an aisle, and felt a little tap on my back. I look back, and it's a little boy. He was scared, and said he could not find his mom. I asked what his mom's name was and took him to the customer service desk to have her paged.

I waited with him, (didn't want to leave him alone again. poor guy.) and 10 minutes later







: his mom finally shows up, talking on her cell phone..I heard her say something about her son got himself lost...WHAT??He didn't get HIMSELF lost, SHE lost HIM by being too preoccupied to keep track of him.

I don't know how long he was lost, but it took about 2 mins for me to walk him up to the front of the store, about 3 mins before someone came to the counter to help us, and TEN for her to bother with coming to get him. That's 15 mins not counting however long he was wandering before he decided to ask a STRANGER for help.

I started to say something, but the customer service girl beat me to it. She asked her if she ever watches the news. Bad things can happen to kids when their not being protected. The mother said, "Thank you," and left.

I feel sick.


I used to work for a big box retail store. Two little boys, 4 and 6, came up to one morning and said they couldn't find their dad.

I paged every 3-5mins for an HOUR. The boys sat behind my desk and BAWLED for and HOUR.

Then the dad wheeled his cart up (he had everything bagged and had already checked out) and proceeded to yell at them for getting lost.

I asked him if he had left the store to look for them??? (Aka where the heck were you when I was paging you). He said, "Well, when I heard the pages I figured you guys had 'em so I might as well finish shopping."


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I doubt I would say anything either!! sorry if it seemed like that way my point. my point was that most people wouldn't say anything about it, which is why I wouldn't want my child to get lost in the store! and I would totally care if they did!

lol Nah, I was just commenting and agreeing with your point.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

im not worried about your parenting. I said I was GLAD to hear you taught him who is the right person to go to. I think that is just the good kind of thing a mother would do who want's to prevent a dangerous situation. And I'm not saying the mother from the OP is a bad mother, I just relate to the OP's concern about the mother's lack of concern . I just found that response to be very strange. I douby a child who looks 4, or a 5 year old who is small for their age, is okay in this situation. apparently the child was out of his comfort zone as another poster said.

then again, I'm the crazy lady in town who doesnt understand why kindergartners are walking to school when we live in one of the highest child abduction areas, and the windows to all my kids rooms are permanantly hurricane shuttered, and a security system in place. It could just be I'm overprotective.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
lol Nah, I was just commenting and agreeing with your point.

I see







just wanted to make sure it didnt sound like I run around accusing people of kidnapping every time their child has a tantrum. Perhaps, in consideration of this, it might help to find a way to gentle intervene in a HELPFUL way, when we can. Like "Can I help you to the car with those groceries? I have had my share of days where my kids were the ones having trouble at the end of a shopping trip. it happens to the best of us" (insert warm smile)


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

These types of threads have a pretty predictable course. First, someone comes on and shares something they witnessed another parent do which the poster finds irritating, frightening, shocking, or horrifying. Then a couple folks respond, "Yeah, that would bug me too" or whatever.

Then other folks who see more shades of gray, or could imagine a reason the action might have been warranted, or could see themselves doing something like that on a bad day, or have been in similar special situations where someone might have judged them but special circumstances were at play, or who simply feel the thread is lacking of compassion, come and post, "yeah, but..." or "judge not," or "what if?" or "It could have simply been..." etc.

Then some more folks come on agreeing with the "yeah, but" crowd, and so those who want to support the OP, or who see why the OP was shocked, or who share viewpoints with the OP, or have been in similar situations as the OP in terms of witnessing something they didn't feel was right, etc. jump back in and draw the line in the sand again.

And most of the time there are one or two really militant-sounding posts from people who are feeling super strong one way or another.

I can see why the OP was upset.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I just object to the assumption that the mother lost him, because she was "too preoccupied" to look after him properly.

It does sound like she was visibly pre-occupied, which explains the OP's upset.

That said, we can't generalize the particular situation she witnessed to all situations with lost kids, parents that don't retrieve their kids right away after being found, etc. There are a lot of different scenarios out there. So I can sort of understand the other responses too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtokea* 
You know, we like to go to bookstores a lot. When we enter the store my kids automatically go to the kids section. I have a few sections that I like to check out myself and I take a few minutes before I join my kids in the kid section. My biggest concern is not that they will be kidnapped. . .

This is a well-grounded, reasoned position. The chances of a child being kidnapped by a complete stranger are extremely, extremely low. Kidnappings are not happening in stores across the nation every day (If I remember correctly, statistically, most kidnappings by the way are non-custodial parents takin their kids). It really bothers me when people go off on the risk of being kidnapped on threads like this. Yes, it could happen. But it is so highly unlikely, that if you are going to worry, the real things to worry about are the child getting scared and so forth.

Quote:

. . .but that I will be judged as a bad mother. Seriously, I head to the kids section thinking that everyone is going to be wondering where the mother of those unsupervised kids is, not that my kids need me or are in trouble. Instinctively I feel that my kids are fine. It's the judgement that worries me more.
I've so been there. Not so much in leaving my kids alone, as they're still little (and wild







) enough I'm not yet tempted to leave them alone in the bookstore, but in other situations. Sometimes *I* know something is safe, or the best approach, or a reasoned action, etc, but I can't bring myself to do what my gut and my brain tell me is right because I have to worry about who will freak out about it. I hate that.

Quote:

. . . .Sounds crazy, I know.








Not at all.

Also, I relate to this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
(I might add that I was frequently more preoccupied than I should have been when ds1 was small...it's not always something the mom can do anything about.)

I am a total scatter-brain at times, so I do imagine sometimes in public I come off as the world's flakiest mom. I also tend to be a very relaxed, easy-going parent, in addition to feeling strongly that children should be encouraged in their early steps toward independence and self-reliance (Montessori-like...for example, if my kids want to help get the milk off the shelf at the grocery store, and I want to look at the cheese in the same aslie but they are quite a distance apart, I let my kids go get the darn milk), so I know those folks who are more "safety mat" parents as well as those who think that the world should never be incovienienced by children (everyone waits for the older woman to slowly get her milk...I think if people have to wait a minute to get their milk because my kids are slowly trying to get theirs off the shelf, so be it) look down on me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
30+ years ago, lots of kids ran around in stores. I remember playing all through the clothing section of Woolco with my sister. We hid out in the clothing racks, and frequently found other kids doing the same thing. A few years later, we'd play hide and seek behind the hanging rugs in Sears. It was the norm. I've seen a huge difference just between the time when ds1 was little and now. My mom doesn't say much about it, but I know she finds modern parenting a little overprotective in that area, and so do many others of her generation.

I think some of this is actually a sign of the expectations of sedentary lifestyles among children. Some natural foods stores and a few other stores have child sized carts kids can push around to "help" with shopping, but the big trend now is to equip the "car carts" for kids with tvs so they can just sit and watch. Not that I can't see that being a really nice thing on desperate days when the kids are off the wall and the shopping just needs to get done, but it is interesting how even a very _low-key_ hide-in-seek game in the rugs would now be seen as "kids running wild."

Quote:

This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

Can't we just accept that different people have different comfort zones, and that we don't know anyone else's full story. . .There's a huge and important difference between "I wouldn't" and "how could she??"
This sums up the sentiment very well.

Quote:

All that said...I've worked with my kids on holding hands from the time they were toddlers - all three of them. The only one who has taken it seriously enough not to bolt is dd. DS1 wasn't terrible. DS2 is _awful_. He has no impulse control at all, and it doesn't matter how often we discuss it, or how quickly I grab him and bring him back. He just does _not_ get it. He sees something or thinks of something, and he's gone. I can tell reading this thread that most of you feel that anybody who was as good a parent as you are wouldn't have this happen. That's very nice for you. Maybe you're even right, but I guess we're not all that great.
Totally! Totally, totally!

ds is one of those kids who, while it was some work, I was able to teach basic safety and stay-by-me and all that. dfd has an almost total lack of impulse control. And no natural sense of safety at all. I don't think she'd even realize if she got lost from me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FiveLittleMonkeys* 
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've never had one of my kids run off while at a store or in a parking lot. Not even when they were little.

Lucky mother! I am not saying you didn't work hard for it. It's just that we worked hard for this with both our kids but we happened to have one wild card kid in terms of being able to internalize this stuff.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
in the parking lot we knew better than to run off. It was just the way we were brought up. We wouldn't have gotten spanked or anything...but I don't remember ever running around while in the parking lot. That was a good way to get to stay home or, before it became against the law, in the car. I'm not saying it was the BEST way to handle it...

Both my kids know there are consequences to running off. One cares and has the impulse control to stop himself. The other doesn't either care or have the impulse control. See, this kind of post just smacks of "kids of good parents know/do/act _____[fill in blank]____," and "kids who do/act ______[fill in blank]_______ must just have bad parents. I think (and hope) you'll learn over time with your kido that the world just isn't that simple.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
UGH. I hate when stuff like that happens. My personal fave is when I go to the mall play area and notice that one kid there doesn't appear to have a mom. Usually said kid is there for at least 1/2 an hour before mama comes waltzing down the mall with her arms heavy with shopping bags. Nice. In one particular case the kid was five, told me how he'd just gotten out of karate class and then proceeded to try and drop-kick my two year old 20 lb daughter.

All the above being said, you bring up one of the problematic parts of leaving kids unsupervised in play spaces or children's sections of bookstores, etc....something that isn't usually talked about. Kids are bound to get into new social situations with complete stranger kids that they don't always have the skills to navigate on their own. While the experiences might be good learning experiences for them in many cases, for the rest of our kids, it could pose a serious problem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
I used to work for a big box retail store. Two little boys, 4 and 6, came up to one morning and said they couldn't find their dad.

I paged every 3-5mins for an HOUR. The boys sat behind my desk and BAWLED for and HOUR.

Then the dad wheeled his cart up (he had everything bagged and had already checked out) and proceeded to yell at them for getting lost.

I asked him if he had left the store to look for them??? (Aka where the heck were you when I was paging you). He said, "Well, when I heard the pages I figured you guys had 'em so I might as well finish shopping.

About this, I had to wonder if this was his approach to natural consequences. Not that it wasn't over the top and quite sad, but maybe he really thought it would nip a budding problem with his kids running off?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
But they'd be Bad Parents if they did that today. It's a fascinating phenomenon.

Agreed.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

It's always annoyed me to hear a parent, upon being reunited with his or her lost child, to immediately start scolding the child, especially since the child is often crying. Hug your kid and be thankful you have him/her back!

But kids and parents do get separated sometimes and it's not always of a question of them "running off" either. Both times my DS and I were separated it was not because he ran off. I just laugh a bit at the posts that are more or less about how "MY kids would never get lost in a store" Good for you, you'll be spared some harrowing moments if that proves to be true. If it proves not to be true, welcome to the club.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Not just other parents, other _mothers_.

This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

Can't we just accept that different people have different comfort zones, and that we don't know anyone else's full story, and just lay off the judgmental shaming please? There's a huge and important difference between "I wouldn't" and "how could she??"

Golly, I can remember wandering around stores at a fairly young age while my mom did her shopping. Large stores, grocery stores, department stores. I knew where I was supposed to go or supposed to stay and she was just a bellow away (boy, she had a set of pipes lol). I don't think I could do that now, but ask me again when my kids are 11.


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## kennedy444 (Aug 2, 2002)

There are a lot of unattentive, not-so-good parents out there. Thank goodness you were there to help.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kennedy444* 
Thank goodness you were there to help.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I completely understand why you felt the way that you did. As for not judging others too harshly, I think that's good advice, and easier to follow if you hear the story secondhand. If you are actually the one there dealing with a sad, scared, lost child and the emotions that the situation provokes in you, and then the parent that finally meanders up as if nothing has happened, it might be more difficult to take a step back. I hope that her nonchalance was covering up embarrassment.







If that's the case then I have some sympathy for the mother, that might be my reaction to embarrassment or shame. However, I also sympathize with the OP who actually took it upon herself to help another mother's child and therefor, IMO, is entitled to her emotions. Maybe the OP's emotions are a very visceral reaction to a terribly upsetting situation.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
what to do about it? go to a stranger? if he knew what to do they would have a meeting place if they got separated or he would know to go to the front desk or ask staff for help - not a stranger.

It's actually a common recommendation that children who are lost should look for a mother with children to help them. It's easier for them to identify, and statistically mothers with children are the least likely to be predators. So I don't think that's odd at all. I've taught my daughter that if she ever gets lost (she hasn't) to look for a mom with kids. Have you read Protecting the Gift? That's where I read that recommendation first, though I've seen it elsewhere since then as well.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I never hear that zee, thank you for sharing that is great information to have!


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

My daughter, who is barely two, ran away from me at target. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME BEFORE. I let her hand go for a moment and was putting some of our things in the carriage. She bolted. Her brother and sister ran after er. I am pregnant and do not run fast. But I bolted after her. She was lost in a matter of a minute. I found her almost right away in a rack of clothes. I panicked. She was only "lost" for about a 3 minute period.

Sorry, but leaving a child lost and unattended for a minute is wrong. I was wrong for letting her hand go. You know a lot of stores have automatic doors? They could run right out of the store and into a parking lot. If after 15 minutes of her child being lost, she had not gone to the customer service desk for help and taken a moment to end her cell phone conversation, I CAN SAFELY say, this mother has poor parenting skills.

We ARE talking about this mom, this situation and she was careless. Besides the fact her kid was scared and she didn't even act concerned. I'm sure he feels SECURE with her. I know I would







.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I agree with the OP, that scares me for the kid too. It is one thing to have a child wander/dart off and lose them for a minute, but it is another thing to have lost your child for 15+ minutes and not have bothered to check the customer service desk, especially when your name was called! Because yeah, some kids are more easily able to or more inclined get away from their parents for sure, and I would not look down on anyone that has happened to, how scary for you! but I would be concerned if a parent was seemingly unconcerned about losing a young child for 15+ minutes.


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## marlne (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FiveLittleMonkeys* 
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've never had one of my kids run off while at a store or in a parking lot. Not even when they were little. We taught them early on that either you are holding a hand, or your "hands are on the van," in the parking lot. When grocery shopping, the baby went into the sling, the 2 yo went into the shopping cart seat, and the other two (ages 4 and 6) - all I had to say to them was, "Hands on the cart, ladies." They range in age from 7 to 14 now, and still we have the little two by the hands and the older two stay together.

Last month when my husband and I were coming back from dinner, we saw a little girl on the side of the road. Barefoot, no adult. We stopped and asked her if she was lost, and she said that her mother had left her to go to someone's house. She was able to take us to where she lived (about 2 blocks away). The mother was not home, and the neighbors said that she does this frequently. We called the police, who responded immediately. Several minutes later, a cell phone number for the mother was obtained, and she was called. It still took her over 45 minutes to get home.

I don't know who does this, but I really wanted to say to the lady, "In the span of time from when we found your daughter to when you got home, we could have been to the airport and GONE, and you never would have known until the next day." (the excuse was that the little girl, age 5, was supposed to be spending the night at a friend's house, but the mother had not taken her there - apparently, she was just supposed to make her way there by herself).

I know that there are times that kids get away, but most people realize it immediately and start looking for their kid. When parents don't, THAT is when I have a problem.

Oh my gosh, that brings tears to my eyes.








I just dont get it. HOw can some people just take their children for granted? Whats so sad is that it would probably take something horrible to happen for them to even open their eyes to what they can lose.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Maybe she "didn't care" because _she didn't think it was a big deal_. Maybe because it's happened 50 times before. Maybe because her son knew what to do about it. Maybe because she hasn't read all the "kidnappers are in EVERY STORE" books. Maybe because she hates him and didn't want to be a parent at all. _We don't know._

Not to mention, she had ALREADY been paged, she knew the child was safe, why should she be upset?


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Not to mention, she had ALREADY been paged, she knew the child was safe, why should she be upset?

The fact that she had already been paged, and then took an additional ten minutes to wander on up, is not an argument in her favor. I would be upset because my child had been lost. It would have been hard for me to just turn that off. Hard for most people, I'm sure.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Not to mention, she had ALREADY been paged, she knew the child was safe, why should she be upset?

Yes, to be upset, she would have to be in tune to her childs feelings and care that here child was upset. She obviously doesn't.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
These types of threads have a pretty predictable course. First, someone comes on and shares something they witnessed another parent do which the poster finds irritating, frightening, shocking, or horrifying. Then a couple folks respond, "Yeah, that would bug me too" or whatever.

Then other folks who see more shades of gray, or could imagine a reason the action might have been warranted, or could see themselves doing something like that on a bad day, or have been in similar special situations where someone might have judged them but special circumstances were at play, or who simply feel the thread is lacking of compassion, come and post, "yeah, but..." or "judge not," or "what if?" or "It could have simply been..." etc.

Then some more folks come on agreeing with the "yeah, but" crowd, and so those who want to support the OP, or who see why the OP was shocked, or who share viewpoints with the OP, or have been in similar situations as the OP in terms of witnessing something they didn't feel was right, etc. jump back in and draw the line in the sand again.

And most of the time there are one or two really militant-sounding posts from people who are feeling super strong one way or another.


yep . .. that's why i don't really bother to post or even do more than skim most of these threads. After a few years of regular MDCing, I'm tired of the dance.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It's actually a common recommendation that children who are lost should look for a mother with children to help them. It's easier for them to identify, and statistically mothers with children are the least likely to be predators. So I don't think that's odd at all. I've taught my daughter that if she ever gets lost (she hasn't) to look for a mom with kids. Have you read Protecting the Gift? That's where I read that recommendation first, though I've seen it elsewhere since then as well.

Yup, I taught all my siblings to do that.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It's actually a common recommendation that children who are lost should look for a mother with children to help them. It's easier for them to identify, and statistically mothers with children are the least likely to be predators. So I don't think that's odd at all. I've taught my daughter that if she ever gets lost (she hasn't) to look for a mom with kids. Have you read Protecting the Gift? That's where I read that recommendation first, though I've seen it elsewhere since then as well.

This is exactly what we teach our kids also. Look for a mom or a woman. It is also statistically more likely that a mom or woman will stay with the child until the parents have their child safe in their arms again. Which the OP nicely proved.

I have been known to annoy my now seven year old daughter by stopping in the middle of the store and saying "Okay, pretend you are lost. Who could you ask for help in this crowd." Always good to know how their little minds work. Of course, that said I tend to fall on the more lenient side of the discussion when it comes to giving kids freedom out in the real world. As long as I can see the little ones and the older one is close enough by to respond to me when I say her name I am good. This is all dependent on location of course. Parks, the library, and some stores are merit more freedom than other locations.


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## potatocraft (Apr 4, 2008)

You know. Everyone would do something different in a situation like this. And many of you have told your kids to go to an employee if they get lost. I can respect that. However, Just because someone is employed does not make them safe. My husband's cousin was at a grocery store with his son and they were in the bathroom. there was a janitor also in the bathroom cleaning. Anyway, because his son was in a "big boy" kick, they were using stalls next to one another instead of the same stall. The son finished first and while the father was finishing he came out to wash his hands. the janitor that was there made a grab for the little boy and the boy screamed. The father, who was an ultimate fighter in his before children life, came out of the stall and grabbed the guy and yelled for the store manager. long story short it was a big hoopla and the janitor was arrested, dh's cousin was brought up on charges for grabbing the guy, but everything turned out ok in the end.
my point is that i have taught all children in my like, I used to baby sit and be a nanny and stuff, to go for the customer service desk or a Mom. Basically if they are lost to look for a lady with kids. I know, i know sexist not to say person with kids and I know that Men can be just a capable but I say Mom figure.
As for the over protective/underprotective thing. I'm probably more of a teach your kids to use their heads and let them use it sort of person. Not that my kids will be unsupervised, but I don't feel the need to track their every move, ya know.
Just my 2 cents.
Shawna


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

My dd was one who would bolt away from me until she turned about 3. I really loved her monkey back pack. I could put that on her, she loved it, and tie the other end to a belt loop. I had both hands free, and she was safe. I loved that thing. Now that ds is getting older, I am going to bring it back out for him to keep him safe and from getting lost when my hands are occupied.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

The only "semi-legitimate excuse" I could see for the OP-mama-in-the-story being "unconcerned" is that she had been shopping with someone else and they'd split up for whatever reason and the child's mother thought that the child had gone with the other person, and maybe that other person thought the child was with his mom. Which is why whenever I'm shopping with someone and we split up for a bit, we make eye contact and decide who has the children. If the kids object, we may reevaluate, but then make sure the other knows that "hey--I've got the kids after all".


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtokea* 
You know, we like to go to bookstores a lot. When we enter the store my kids automatically go to the kids section. I have a few sections that I like to check out myself and I take a few minutes before I join my kids in the kid section. My biggest concern is not that they will be kidnapped, but that I will be judged as a bad mother. Seriously, I head to the kids section thinking that everyone is going to be wondering where the mother of those unsupervised kids is, not that my kids need me or are in trouble. Instinctively I feel that my kids are fine. It's the judgement that worries me more.
Sounds crazy, I know.









Not crazy at all. I feel the same every time I go out with DS. I give him a lot of freedom compared to other kids his age, I follow the Continuum Concept in my parenting which accords a lot more ability to kids than is generally allowed for in our Western society. Therefore, to an onlooker it could often seem as if i 'dont care' or am a bad parent, when in fact I am simply not 'hovering' and giving my son the opportunity to develop his own judgement, exercise his own innate sense of safety and boundaries, and develop confidence. I am also disturbed by the judgmentalism in this thread - it does seem that in the original post, the child was upset, but in general i dont think its good to make blanket judgments - you never know what the parent intended, how much trust there is in the relationship, what the child's ability and independence is, etc.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
But we do know she was preoccupied, she was chit chatting on the phone telling someone her son 'got himself lost' and to top it off she wasn't worried at all.

I don't know I bother, but this is _exactly_ what I mean. Was she chatting on the phone _when he got lost_? We don't know - this was at least 15 minutes later, _after_ he'd been found. Maybe she'd called a friend or relative in a panic, and was calling back to let him/her know the score. I personally can't tell if someone is worried based on what someone else, who doesn't know them, briefly observes and reports on a message board. I can think of several scenarios that could explain taking 10 minutes to get there, and not _seeming_ "worried at all" and talking on her cell phone. Those scenarios don't all assume that she _must_ be an inattentive, preoccupied mom.

Oh - and the customer service clerk was out of line. It's not his/her (can't recall) job to decide that a customer is a negligent parent and then tell them off. I'd complain to management if I were on the receiving end of that.

ETA: I just read the last couple pages of posts. I'm sorry - I must have missed where the OP saw the mom _before_ she found out her child was recovered. Since the OP didn't see her, I have no idea why anybody in this thread, from the OP on, thinks they have any clue what the mom's mental state was, either when the child got lost (however it happened) or while she was looking for him. The OP only saw the mom _after_ the child was found.

Boy - this thread has made me feel _so_ much better about taking my little monkey out in public. It's bad enough never knowing when he's going to jerk his hand out of mine and run. Now, I get to wonder who's going to be ready to publicly lambaste me for not caring enough or being a bad mother. Maybe I should try the harness he doesn't like (the one that I've also been criticized for using on dd, who loved it, in an attempt to keep her safe)? Maybe I should get handcuffs? Maybe I should just keep him home and never let him leave the house? Actually, I guess if I were just as good a mother as some others here, my child would _never_ even think of bolting, because I'd have told him not to, and worked with him on that..._obviously_, I never did that, because he _does_ take off.

I feel sorry for the child in the OP. I feel sorry for him mom, too.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I too am sick of people who do not supervise their children. My neighbor's children are always running around the neighborhood. It is awful. They were 3 and 5 when we first moved in a year and a half ago. The oldest mows the lawn with a real lawn mower and no supervision.

On the topic of children running away, my oldest did that all the time. He had oxygen deprivation at birth and has always had "issues." He would run like there was no tomorrow when he was little. The doctors had little hope for his future, but I did extended breastfeeding and family bed and so on and he has really far exceeded what anyone expected. He came out needing to be resuscitated and so on. He needed oxygen, it was all so awful. I can still see the effects in him today.

So please don't judge anyone based on their child screaming in public (ds would scream high pitched screams around the clock) or running away while the parents look totally flustered. However, I always knew he was running away and was always trying to get him back and rarely went out in public with him and so on because of it. I cannot stand it when I am in public and someones kids are just giggling and running around and being holy terrors and the parents don't care. I also cannot stand people who leave their smal children home alone or outside alone unsupervised.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

I used to work retail, and it never failed. Some small child would be lost, crying, and when I would help them find mom, she would go off yelling at them for being lost instead of realizing it was her fault for not paying attention, or comforting her crying child who was obviously traumatized. That used to pi$$ me off so much.







: WTF is wrong with people?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

^I saw this in the mall once, a women who was walking about 10 feet ahead of her toddler. it was crowded. I could never do that. A child taking off is another story, but there are fun ways to teach a child not to do this. I am lucky that has been enough to teach my 3 1/2 and 2 year old - so far. if they were lost and I was called to the front of the store, it wouldnt take me 10 minutes to get there (unless it was a really really really big store and I was allll the way on the opposite side - but even then I would have already noticed my child missing and been going to the front desk myself for help!)

I would be worried. I would thank the person who found them and I would probably be in tears over the fact we got seperated, especially if it caused my child anxiety like the child in the OP.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I used to work retail, and it never failed. Some small child would be lost, crying, and when I would help them find mom, she would go off yelling at them for being lost instead of realizing it was her fault for not paying attention, or comforting her crying child who was obviously traumatized. That used to pi$$ me off so much.







: WTF is wrong with people?

I did that to ds1 a couple times. We had a problem almost every time I shopped, because he would take off and I couldn't keep up with him. I was sick. My marriage was falling apart. A couple of times, I was still bleeding from a miscarriage. I frequently had very, very bad headaches (mostly tension, but a few migraines). I still had to walk home with all the groceries and cook dinner. We had the "don't run away" conversation on the way to the store _every time_. I left him home a few times, which neither of us liked, because I just couldn't cope with having to chase him...and I told him why I wasn't taking him. Sometimes, I didn't have that choice, because there was nobody to watch him. So, yeah - a few times, when I caught up with him, I flipped out.

It's funny. I used to feel as though everyone was judging my parenting when ds1 was little. I finally decided it was my old self-consciousness flaring up. Who knew I was right all along? It's nice to know that I can count on other moms to sit back and mentally kick me when I'm already down.

This has been a very depressing thread.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't see how what you did is the same as not comforting a scared child or showing concern Lisa???


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I did that to ds1 a couple times. We had a problem almost every time I shopped, because he would take off and I couldn't keep up with him. I was sick. My marriage was falling apart. A couple of times, I was still bleeding from a miscarriage. I frequently had very, very bad headaches (mostly tension, but a few migraines). I still had to walk home with all the groceries and cook dinner. We had the "don't run away" conversation on the way to the store _every time_. I left him home a few times, which neither of us liked, because I just couldn't cope with having to chase him...and I told him why I wasn't taking him. Sometimes, I didn't have that choice, because there was nobody to watch him. So, yeah - a few times, when I caught up with him, I flipped out.

It's funny. I used to feel as though everyone was judging my parenting when ds1 was little. I finally decided it was my old self-consciousness flaring up. Who knew I was right all along? It's nice to know that I can count on other moms to sit back and mentally kick me when I'm already down.

This has been a very depressing thread.











are we talking about a child of 5 or 6, or a toddler? I should have clarified. The instances I was talking about were toddlers. I can't imagine you would have given the 'talk' to a toddler and expected it to work. With a child who was old enough to understand instructions, I wouldn't have been as upset with the parents. These were terrified _toddlers,_ which I guess I didn't specify. And I worked in a _big toy store._


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
.
add to the fact even if the kid yelled screaming the store the person could act like its a tantrum... since people usually DO stay out of it. I will have to find the link or maybe someone else has it but this theory was tested with a child screaming "your not my mommy!! you're not my mommy!" and the people just kept walking.

Because people know that kids will scream statements like that in order to get attention. I don't even know where my 2.5 year old picked it up from, but he'll scream "you're not my mommy! I don't like you! leave me alone!" when temper tantruming in public.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

I'll admit it, yes, it may be judgemental for me to think this mother "didn't seem to care" or that she was preoccupied. I mean, OOOPS, I WAS GOING TO SAY MORE BUT DECIDED AGAINST IT...

Just because this sort of thing may have happened before, or the mother knows he is now safe, or what ever other sort of excuse you want to throw at it still doesn't make up for the fact the mother didn't console her scare, upset child. She's havign a bad day, week, month or year isn't a good enough excuse for me.

Paint me all kinds of judgemental colors.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
Because people know that kids will scream statements like that in order to get attention. I don't even know where my 2.5 year old picked it up from, but he'll scream "you're not my mommy! I don't like you! leave me alone!" when temper tantruming in public.

I agree I think this is exactly why. of course to be sure instead of stepping in all mean, a person could offer the mother a helping hand, which would probably be a great help! I know I would have appreciated that the times my kids tantrummed in public. My son did it once at an amusement park, my daughter did it once at the mall. I'm lucky that was the extent so far! but I was MORTIFIED both times! I had to keep telling myself (this happens to all mothers! its just my turn this time!)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
I'll admit it, yes, it may be judgemental for me to think this mother "didn't seem to care" or that she was preoccupied. I mean,

Just because this sort of thing may have happened before, or the mother knows he is now safe, or what ever other sort of excuse you want to throw at it still doesn't make up for the fact the mother didn't console her scare, upset child. She's havign a bad day, week, month or year isn't a good enough excuse for me.

Paint me all kinds of judgemental colors.


i dont think you are being judgemental I think people are taking it personally and applying it to their experiences when it doesnt apply. Most people here voiced concerned over the mother not consoling the child or seeming upset. its normal that we would think that is strange.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

but we don't even know how old the child is! I keep saying that but it's a pretty big part of it!

I know that some here have said they wouldn't allow a child under ten out of range in a store. But then I noticed that those same people have toddler/preschool aged kids. It makes more sense that they'd feel that way. I have been absolutely panicked with my kids in a store when one is out of sight---when they were wee. For sure. But seriously, it would be ridiculous of me to feel like I need to have my 9 yr old within arm's reach at all times. even when he was 8 it would have been silly. Also, I expect my kids to kind of keep up with me sometimes when we have to get things done. I can't constantly be paying attention to their every move every second that we're shopping. They're too old for that now to be honest. My 9 yr old got lost recently in a department store and I truly didn't feel a second of panic. I just waited to hear and announcement. Which I heard. I went and collected the little bugger and we were on our way. I mean, I was polite to the salesperson and said thanks. I also did slightly scold my kid for not paying attention. Not in front of anyone else or anything. I really don't see a problem there. He could easily find his way HOME from the mall if he had to at this age.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

mamajama- I totally see your point and agree with you. As we don''t know the exact age of the child I think it was decided by the OP the child was around 4yo.

But even if it was a 9yo, *IF* said 9yo was scared, it would be odd to not see any concern in the mother, kwim? I'm sure if your 9yo, for whatever reason, was scared you'd concole him.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I have lost my child in the store a couple times. Once she deliberately ran off to another isle while I had my back turned to her and was trying to reach something on the high shelf at the back of the freezer. I started yelling for her and I could hear her crying becuase she couldn't find me. She kept wandering from row to row but a very nice lady helped us connect by telling her that she could hear me calling and telling her to stay right there so I could find her. It was very scary for both of us and she hasn't done it sense. She was five when it happened though and had never wondered off from me before. Last time we went to the mall she left the clothes rack she was suppossed to be in and went to another rack, I panicked and she came out quickly and stayed with me.
It is sad that the boy was so sad and it took so long for the mom to come to the front to get him, but there may have been other things going on that made it hard for the mom to find him right away even if he was scared and crying. I would have loved to find my dd right away when she ran off but that isn't always what happens. This may also be a recurring thing with him and she may have been to frustrated to address his saddness right then. My friend's son runs off every time they go to WalMart and by the time she finds him she has only angry words to say to him. It is sad when parents don't have it in them to comfort their child, but sometimes even moms are human and get to a point in their anger where they are not able to empathize with their child.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I agree I think this is exactly why. of course to be sure instead of stepping in all mean, a person could offer the mother a helping hand, which would probably be a great help! I know I would have appreciated that the times my kids tantrummed in public. My son did it once at an amusement park, my daughter did it once at the mall. I'm lucky that was the extent so far! but I was MORTIFIED both times! I had to keep telling myself (this happens to all mothers! its just my turn this time!)

I think it's all in how you deal with it, though.

I've had people "step in" to offer a hand, and usually their help is actually a hurt. If you step in to "help" the child who is throwing a temper tantrum because he's being asked to sit on a bench until he calms down, it's generally not helpful.

He's also the type of kid who goes full out into "wildcat" mode when he's being asked to do something he doesn't want to do or refused something he wants--kicking, biting, flopping, screaming. I've just found it safer to isolate him somewhere (a bench, a corner of the store) rather than try to haul him away from the scene to the car or something, because chances are good that one of us is going to get accidentally hurt if I try to move him before he's calmed back down. Telling me to just give him the thing, or even to hold/restrain him isn't going to be helpful for this particular child in these particular circumstances.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I don't see how what you did is the same as not comforting a scared child or showing concern Lisa???

I was saying that there were a few time when I yelled at ds1 for getting lost in the store.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
are we talking about a child of 5 or 6, or a toddler? I should have clarified. The instances I was talking about were toddlers. I can't imagine you would have given the 'talk' to a toddler and expected it to work. With a child who was old enough to understand instructions, I wouldn't have been as upset with the parents. These were terrified _toddlers,_ which I guess I didn't specify. And I worked in a _big toy store._

I _think_ he was 4 the first time...maybe 6 the last time? It's hard to remember exactly. He is almost 16 now.

Yeah - it's pretty upsetting to see someone yell at a toddler. I have to admit that I've probably done it a couple times, though. I can't honestly remember doing it, but I suspect I probably have. I try to cultivate a more serene outlook on life, but I'm not a naturally serene person (neither is dd, actually).

I will admit that I can't imagine freaking out at a toddler who was completely freaked out themselves. Do keep in mind that, even though it's counterproductive and unfair, that is how some people process it when they're really freaked out...the fear for the child comes out in a really negative way.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Sometimes I think that people act like they don't care, because they are actually scared. Hopefully that was the case here. Maybe she was on the cellphone with her husband or mother or sibling, because she was upset. I've done that before. I lost my younger daughter in a mall, and I didn't go back to the mall for almost a year because of how easy it was for her to disappear in my care. I was pretty low key, however, that's always the way I am. When I was in the mall looking for her, I kept thinking that I would find her, that she couldn't have gotten far, that I would just turn the corner and there she would be. I was upset, but trying to calm myself down. I first went out to the parking lot at the end of the mall in the direction we had been heading, thinking she had just kept walking. I passed right by Macy's, never went in. Then I went all the way back to the security office, because I didn't know what to do, and then I heard my name over the loudspeaker. She was at Macy's sitting at the make-up counter.

When I actually found my child, I was relieved, I was grateful, I was angry at myself. It's hard to know how to react in front of people, but I know they are expecting a certain reaction, so I tried to give that to them, but it's not natural to me. I just want to not say a single word, other than to thank the people who found her and took care of her, and then take my daughter. It doesn't mean I don't care. So maybe that's where this woman was.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it depends how you step in to help. you can step in in that scenario just by saying to the mother "that was me last week! don't worry, it will pass. you are doing a great job"

i was not suggesting helping the mother PARENT I was suggesting helping the mother by supporting her. Or doing something like pushing her groceries to the car or something.

we know the child looked to be about 4, or small for a 5 year old. I doubt that would make the child older then 7. and even if the child was 10, if the child was scared, would you not console them?

Heck, I think my mom did a lousy job in a lot of ways but even as a teenager she consoled me when I was scared.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
I used to work for a big box retail store. Two little boys, 4 and 6, came up to one morning and said they couldn't find their dad.

I paged every 3-5mins for an HOUR. The boys sat behind my desk and BAWLED for and HOUR.

Then the dad wheeled his cart up (he had everything bagged and had already checked out) and proceeded to yell at them for getting lost.

I asked him if he had left the store to look for them??? (Aka where the heck were you when I was paging you). He said, "Well, when I heard the pages I figured you guys had 'em so I might as well finish shopping."











Too bad you didn't call the police after 1/2 an hour. What a UAV.







:


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
mamajama- I totally see your point and agree with you. As we don''t know the exact age of the child I think it was decided by the OP the child was around 4yo.

But even if it was a 9yo, *IF* said 9yo was scared, it would be odd to not see any concern in the mother, kwim? I'm sure if your 9yo, for whatever reason, was scared you'd concole him.

To be honest, it might not look like I'm overly compassionate from the outside in some situations. It's a little game where my kid_acted_ kind of scared but wasn't really. He kind of liked the excitement and attention he got from the salespeople, yk? which is fine. But it's so not something I'm particularly interested in encouraging. I had a sense of humour about it and stuff but I wasn't all "OMG my poor baybeeeeee, you must be terrified!!! Don't ever do that to Mama again!!! I almost died thinking you'd be kidnapped!!!" etc. etc. I was more like "c'mon ya little rapscallion, let's get our shopping done and get outta here".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Too bad you didn't call the police after 1/2 an hour. What a UAV.







:

I've never been very inclined to call the authorities regarding parenting, but I think I might in that situation. It would seem as though the dad had left the store and abandoned his kid.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never been very inclined to call the authorities regarding parenting, but I think I might in that situation. It would seem as though the dad had left the store and abandoned his kid.

I'm thinking he completely destroyed their trust once they found out he was shopping the entire time he was being paged while they sat there sobbing. That's just unbelievable.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I'm thinking he completely destroyed their trust once they found out he was shopping the entire time he was being paged while they sat there sobbing. That's just unbelievable.









I could see a parent who was dealing with the taking off all the time thing trying it as an extreme "natural consequences" kind of thing, but...nope. That's just not cool.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Viola - "Sometimes I think that people act like they don't care, because they are actually scared"

that makes sense. thats an idea that I can understand even though it differs from my own thinking.


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

nak
I work ib a book store, it's a large and well known company. Parents ruotinely leave thier kids i the children's section and shop throughout the store. Our store is located about 3 miles from one of the highest crime-rate areas in the country. I've seen parents get mad at kids for getting lost, I've seenkids getmas at parents for loosing them, I've seen kids whose parents were very glad they werev OK I've had parents yell at me for paging them. One of the angiest peoplr I came across had left his 2 small sons in the kid's section. Happens all the time, but we keep an eye in them. Anyway this boy really had to go to the restroom, but didn't want to go alone Poor guy's doin the pee-pee dance and crying. So I page the father, who asks "what the hell did you do that for?" uhm, maybe you shouldn't just leave your kids places??? we have rules that apply to parents at our story times, that I think should apply sll the time, but I won't get into that....
I'm a big fan of kid leashes (please don't flame me







) because #1 son was an escape artist and a con artist "LET GO! YOU'RE HURTING ME OWOWOWOWOW!" even thougn i was barely touching him (I'd make a ring with my thumb and middle finger that his wrist sat in loosely but he couldn't get his hand through). And when I wasn't holding his hand he was oiff like a shot. So untill I could get "hands on the cart" into his head, I used a leash.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I like harnesses, but you need some cooperation from the child for them to work. DD loved hers, and it worked out really well. My attempts to use one with ds2, like my mom's long ago attempts to use one with my brother, didn't work out at all. Both boys just dropped to the floor and refused to move. If we tried to pick them up or anything, they just screamed.

DS2 does the "ow ow ow ow - you're hurting me" thing, too. He's actually done it when he's on my lap, and I'm not even holding him! He'll try to wiggle off, run into my arm or something (kind of cradling my arms around him, but no attempt to actually hold him, yk?), and start screaming about how much it hurts. *sigh*


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
^I saw this in the mall once, a women who was walking about 10 feet ahead of her toddler. it was crowded. I could never do that.

People probably think similar things about me. I haven't done this exact thing (I don't even know what a crowded mall would look like, as I never shop in malls), but I have a specific parenting philosophy in which at times I do things similar. I'm always aware of where my kids are, but sometimes they are trailing behind me duckling style.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I could see a parent who was dealing with the taking off all the time thing trying it as an extreme "natural consequences" kind of thing

That's also what I was speculating in my post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaFox* 
I'm a big fan of kid leashes (please don't flame me







)

Threads almost *exactly* like this one but over the subject of the merits or lackthereof of "leashes" have involved debating at length. You'll find folks here on MDC on both sides of the fence regarding this one too. Seems you can't win. Always folks who will judge you, one way or the other.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I've only read the first post, but hey, deja vu. We just got back from the grocery store a little while ago and guess who I found just about to walk out the automatic door into the snowstorm without a coat? I don't know his name because he was TOO LITTLE TO TELL ME. Damn cute little guy, big grin. After at least five minutes of hanging out with him and trying to figure out where he belonged, we found his mother checking out halfway across the store. She looked at a woman (her sister?) in the customer service line and said, "MICHELLE!" Michelle turned around and I repeated that I'd found him about to walk out the door and she grinned and said, "Oops, my bad," totally lightheartedly. Neither said thank you. Neither acted like they realized how bad that could have been.

Uh huh. Nice job, ladies.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

have you ever been to an airport? would you walk without even looking back through the crowd with a toddler (or maybe it wasnt a toddler and the child just LOOKED like they were 2 years old)

I guess I think different since I live in a place where child abduction has higher rates then some other places.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's funny. I used to feel as though everyone was judging my parenting when ds1 was little. I finally decided it was my old self-consciousness flaring up. Who knew I was right all along? It's nice to know that I can count on other moms to sit back and mentally kick me when I'm already down.

This has been a very depressing thread.











it seems this is a very personal issue to you, and i'm sure it's hard to read a thread where a lot of people are at the other end of the spectrum from where you are.

to be fair though, you're being pretty hard on people who have personal issue's too. maybe some of these people were lost as children, knew someone who was kidnapped, or something like that?

there are lots of shades of grey in this thread... i think it would be wise for people at both ends of whatever spectrum we're on here to try to see those, rather than go after one another for being too far one way or the other.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
have you ever been to an airport? would you walk without even looking back through the crowd with a toddler (or maybe it wasnt a toddler and the child just LOOKED like they were 2 years old)

I guess I think different since I live in a place where child abduction has higher rates then some other places.

Do you live in the U.S.? Because unless I am way off on the statistics there is no where in the U.S. where abductions by *strangers* are enough to justify the level of fear among parents out there. Do you know if your location's statistics separate out relative vs. stranger abductions. Because the only reason I think one area would be likely to have a *much* higher rate if there were particular issues around custody stuff, etc.

That's just the U.S. though.

As for walking with my tot behind me in an airport, it would depend. I have had a kid following me duckling style in the airport for short stints. Questions would include but not be limited to: How far were we going? Where are we exactly in the airport...would people hurrying to get to a plane accidently trample my kid (in other words, are we in an area with hurrying traffic, or just some life-business type traffic like at the food court)? Could I see anything in the reflection in the windows or looking in the mirrors that are placed up by the ceiling for employees going around corners with carts and things? Do I feel I can be attentive enough to turn every 30 seconds or so and check on my child, or am I likely to get distracted? Are there people nearby who might tell me if something is wrong...other parents, etc.? What kind of mood is my kid in? What kind of mood am I in? Can I set the right pace for the environment so that my kid can keep up with me even if ten steps or so behind? How fast do we need to get where we are going? Just how crowded is "crowded..." are we talking a steady but manageable stream of people that don't limit my visibility, a thick crowd that limits visibility, etc.? And so forth.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I guess I think different since I live in a place where child abduction has higher rates then some other places.

stranger abductions are really rare no matter where you live in the US. i did a research paper in grad school about the age of parental fear we are (were.. this was about 6 years ago) living in.
the chances of your child being abducted by a stranger are EXCEEDINGLY low (in 1999, for example, there were about 115 such abductions) regardless of where you live in the US. however, whenever it does happen the media is ALL OVER IT for as long as it causes a sensation, which makes it seem like it's more common than it is.
that being said, if _your_ child is the one (in 1.5 million, or even 6.5 billion) who gets abducted, the statistics mean absolutely nothing.

i'm much less afraid of my 21mo DD getting kidnapped than i am of her darting out in a parking lot and getting hit by a car (something that happens much too often.) and i parent her accordingly.
she can walk in stores w/out holding my hand if she wants to, but when we're in a parking lot, she's in my arms or in the cart. period. i'm SURE this will change as she gets older.
it took me a long time to get over my anxiety about having her in the car at all, because the chances of a child dying in a car crash are astronomically high (especially compared to a stranger abduction) but most of us still drive with our kids in the car.

i'm not trying to say people who keep their kids close are wrong at all (my DH is much more concerned about our DD being attatched to us in some way when we're out, and i don't think _he's_ wrong) i'm just trying to bring some perspective to the issue


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
Do you live in the U.S.? Because unless I am way off on the statistics there is no where in the U.S. where abductions by *strangers* are enough to justify the level of fear among parents out there.

THAT

You are more right to be concerned about your 13 year old girl being abducted by a stranger.

My child is not likely to be snatched because my child is out of my sight.

Now I'm not going to leave my child up at customer service, because that's rude to customer service. And in generally I like to know where my children are in the store, because that's the right thing to do for everyone involved. And they still need socializing, not the kind you get in school, but the kind you get where your mom tells you how to behave.

Side story but relevant, my daughter was performing in her church choir on Sunday and since DH was on his way to catch up at the office, I asked DH to drop her off at church for her pre-mass practice and DS and I would be there in the service at the normal time. (The choir children come in with the procession and sit apart from the parents so no need to be there with her.) I told DH that practice was not in the normal spot and where it was. However, when 5 year old DD told him she knew were to go (she did not, as he did not tell her what I'd said) he just dropped her at the curb at her insistence, and watched her go in the building.

So after the service I get a big, fairly dramatic earful from the children's ministry lady about how my daughter had been "found crying" in the wrong part of the church instead of being brought properly to the right place and all the ways I suck. She stopped throwing such attitude when she found out it was DH's doing. Why it's OK to beat up moms and not dads I don't know.

What had happened as verified between my daughter, the mom who helped her and the story I was initially told was that when they were not in the normal choir room my daughter started crying and found a mom and asked her for help. The mom took her down to religious education where they were able to verify where she should be, and then they took her to the hall where they were practicing.

You know what? That sounds about right. I don't see the crisis. It was a church on Sunday, not gang territory, the Serengeti Plain, or a pit of child eating dragons. If I'd been called, I would have come right down. My daughter knows my number and has experience using it.

So we're living in a state of such weird fear that it's not even OK to leave your 5 year old alone in a well-populated CHURCH. Either that or some people are wound so tight they can't give a 5 year old 5 minutes of their time.

Let's have some more community, tell our children to behave in public and stay near us, act promptly when other people help them and they're waiting on us, but not act like the world is full of evil. The world is full of US.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

well to each their own. if you dont want to be worried that is on you. the women who lived here had house security put in because her child was abducted from here. that scared a reality check into me. I wish my DH hadn't told me (we found out from a neighbor after we moved)

and from my understanding, south florida does have higher rates of abduction then where I am from originally (central jersey)

forgive me for the absurd thought of doing anythihng possible to avoid harm to my child, no matter how rare it may be :rollseyes:


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
Do you live in the U.S.? Because unless I am way off on the statistics there is no where in the U.S. where abductions by *strangers* are enough to justify the level of fear among parents out there.


your stats aren't off, kidnapping by a stranger is very, very rare.

I swear every parent should read Protecting the Gift. It was recommended to me by mama's here and I can't thank them enough.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamarootoo* 









it seems this is a very personal issue to you, and i'm sure it's hard to read a thread where a lot of people are at the other end of the spectrum from where you are.

to be fair though, you're being pretty hard on people who have personal issue's too. maybe some of these people were lost as children, knew someone who was kidnapped, or something like that?

there are lots of shades of grey in this thread... i think it would be wise for people at both ends of whatever spectrum we're on here to try to see those, rather than go after one another for being too far one way or the other.

I'm "going after people" for jumping to the nastiest possible conclusions about other mothers. I don't know if it's an inherent need to feel superior or if it's just ignorance, but it's not pretty, either way. I don't really care where they are on the spectrum. Some people have a comfort zone that means they want/need to keep their kids very close, and some people have a comfort zone that doesn't include that need. I have no problem with either. My own comfort zone has varied wildly over the years, depending on which child we're talking about, how old said child is/was, and where we were.

I have a problem with _stating_ that a woman was too preoccupied to notice that her child wandered off when the person stating that wasn't there and doesn't know. The OP knows what the mom was doing at least 15 minutes (by her own post) after the child was separated from her. She has no idea what the intervening 15 minutes were like. Nobody in this thread, from the OP on down, has _any_ idea what the mom was thinking or feeling behind the "thank you" she said to the customer service person. Most people don't care, either - it's more fun to dogpile on someone who can't defend herself, without knowing anything about her circumstances.

ETA: In case I wasn't clear, the "personal issue" for me in all this has _nothing_ to do with rules about staying close, holding hands, not holding hands, etc. It has to do with the outrageous degree of judgment piled on people without knowing anything about what's going on.

A couple of previous posters have mentioned that moms are more subject to this. I think that's true. However, I think it's largely because dads are expected to be incompetent, and moms are expected to know their stuff. By and large, I haven't noticed many moms fighting the "moms are naturally better parents" stereotype, either. I guess we have to take the good with the bad if we're going to foster that kind of crap.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
In case I wasn't clear, the "personal issue" for me in all this has _nothing_ to do with rules about staying close, holding hands, not holding hands, etc. It has to do with the outrageous degree of judgment piled on people without knowing anything about what's going on.

my mistake.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

I do know too that abductions by strangers are very rare but I guess I read the book Adam at an impressionable age because it is what I think about when I am in a store - especially when they have the big blue ADAM sticker up on the sliding glass door. I know that I will try my best to not let my children out of my sight until I feel they are old enough to handle that. I guess it just boils down to what people fear...child abduction may not have been high up on this woman's (subject of original post) fear list. Being that it is pretty high up on mine, I have a hard time conceiving what that would be like to not have that worry. I would imagine that as a mother, she would have other worries that top her list that may not be on mine. From what OP wrote, it does sound like the mother was not very connected to her child in an emotional way and my first instinct is to feel sorry for the child but I am also willing to consider and hope that there may be circumstances that I don't know of that explain the reaction.

Regarding making judgements - I did notice that when I first became a mom, I was quick to judge other moms. Maybe I just wanted to try to convince myself I was doing a better job than others when I really was very unsure about my parenting skills. It is something I have worked on very hard to overcome because so many of us are just trying to do our best and you never really know what is going on unless you get to find out from the actual person. So far, the only thing I have personally seen that I just can not avoid really mentally slamming a parent for is smoking near a child - especially in a car or other enclosed space. I don't think there is any excuse for that at all that would make it okay.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

I think everyday we encounter parenting situations that we wouldn't personally undertake. What I try to remember is that I have rarely if ever met a mother who didn't love their child to pieces. Sometimes that mother has too much on her plate, doesn't know about child development, has past issues, that create a situation that is less than ideal for the child. In instances where real harm is occuring, there are ways to make sure the child is safe and the mother can learn better skills and get assistance. In cases where it is deemed to far gone, the child is placed in others care. For the grey areas in between, it is fascinating how quick we are to judge.

I am not saying that the mothers reaction, slow....reaction, wasn't odd to me. But to speculate why, well, we don't have enough information honestly. I probably would have come quickly but showed no emotion because if I did I would be a blubbering mess. I dislike being emotionally vulnerable in public, so I would choose to put that emotion to the side for later. In effect, I would look very uncaring just to keep sane.

I am not too woried about child aduction, though the thought terrifies me. I have a somewhat more relaxed attitude but I better know where you are. I think the same is true for kids, they want to be able to find you even if they are being independant.

I think the fact that the child knew to go to a mom is a good sign. Perhaps he was taught that. I do like to give benefit of the doubt to moms only because the worst judge of mothering is from other mothers.

OP, I don't chastise you for telling this story at all. It makes me aware of differing styles of parenting, of things to do for our children to make sure they are safe, and knowing that there are moms like you who will help my children if they are ever lost and scared. I am glad you brought it up.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

It was kind of odd she wasn't outwardly concerned. Maybe her yelling at the child was her way of showing concern. When I was younger I got lost in the store my Mom worked at, my father yelled and screamed at me when he found me. Thats just how he was (and still is).

I think everyone needs to be a little slower to judge and a little quicker to understand. Right now I have a 3 month old and a 2 year old and my husband isn't with us. When I go out anywhere my DD walks either in front of me or behind me and Im always getting dirty looks from people. I know exactly where she is, if shes behind me Im always looking making sure shes still there. She knows not to go into the street and if she tried I would be able to stop her. If she did bolt though I wouldn't want people to think "What an aweful mom" but rather "You know, shes always alone with those two babies, maybe she needs a hand with those grocheries". Unattended kids don't always mean a bad parent.


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## ginadc (Jun 13, 2006)

Agreed, OkiMom. I have a 3-year-old and an almost-one-year-old, and lately my DD has decided bolting is fun. She never used to do it and always would stick by me, understanding that she had to keep her hand in mine in or near parking lots or streets and almost never even trying to twist away. Then the other night, leaving day care, she started to bolt down the sidewalk (I used to let her walk without holding my hand until we got near the parking lot, because she had always been good about it and I wanted to reward her for that) and headed straight for the street at full tilt. No amount of "Red light!" or "Freeze!" could stop her, and I was barreling after her with my 10-month-old son under my arm like a football. Thank goodness she finally stopped a few feet short of the curb.

On a different but related note...

The other day, we were in Target and my DD was having a meltdown. (I've decided she's allergic to Target and will make all future Target runs either when she's in day care or when DH is also around.) Anyway, she threw an absolute fit and refused to put her coat on or allow me to do so. I could have either a) put her coat on by force, eliciting hysterical screams, kicking, fighting, etc. or b) let her ride the cart outside with no coat in 25-degree weather.

I chose option b. Needless to say, by the time we got to the car she was saying, "Mommy, I cold!" Um, yeah. So I put her in her coat and got her in the car, but as we walked out to the car I noticed two women walking toward their car behind us, watching us, shaking their heads and making comments that I couldn't quite make out but that sounded pretty disparaging in tone. They actually pulled up behind us as I finished loading the car and one of them was on her cellphone--I half expected to get a call from DYFS about neglecting my child.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JD5351* 
I didn't ask him how old he was, but if I had to guess, he looked to be about 4 or maybe a small 5.


4 or 5 is PLENTY old enough to keep up with your mom while she goes through the grocery store. It's too bad that he got scared, but I don't think the mom was at all wrong for blaming him for getting lost.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ginadc* 
No amount of "Red light!" or "Freeze!" could stop her, and I was barreling after her with my 10-month-old son under my arm like a football. Thank goodness she finally stopped a few feet short of the curb.

Do you think her stopping was a matter of sheer luck or if she actually might have known that she needed to stop and despite running at a good clip planned on stoping. I ask because sometimes my kids like to give me a heart attack, but in the meantime do plan on stopping short of killing themselves







.


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## ginadc (Jun 13, 2006)

I think you're right that she probably knew. I don't know if she actually intended to give me a heart attack or was just enjoying running full tilt, but she took a good ten years off my life!

Her day care buddy's dad was with us and he ran after her too (unencumbered as day care buddy was already in his car seat), and was quite impressed that even carrying a baby I outran him. But she outran both of us.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
Do you think her stopping was a matter of sheer luck or if she actually might have known that she needed to stop and despite running at a good clip planned on stoping. I ask because sometimes my kids like to give me a heart attack, but in the meantime do plan on stopping short of killing themselves







.

DD went through a phase like that, where she'd bolt headlong, but stop short of the curb. I knew she was going to do it, but was always still terrified that _this_ would be the time she'd get over-excited and forget. Plus, she took a long time to remember about driveways. Scary stuff.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I'd like to know what changes between 3 1/2 and 4, or if its because my child is delayed - but If my son got lost in the store I would not think it was HIS fault at that age. I recognize though, that I do not know what its like to live with a typical 3 1/2 year old, or how much changes between 3 1/2 and 4. they do change a lot during this time. I just think 4 or 5 is still young in my mind.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I would be pretty disturbed by a non-chalant parent being separated from a child that age. Does that make me judgmental?


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## ginadc (Jun 13, 2006)

SGM, I'm not an expert, but I will say that I have noticed that the four- and five-year-olds in my daughter's day care seem to listen and understand instructions *much* better than the three-year-olds. DD has a buddy who is four, and I am always struck by how much more "mature" she seems (and I don't think she's unusually mature, from what I've seen). When DD is romping around the lobby, trying to run up and down the stairs as I'm putting DS into his snowsuit, her buddy will always ask her to sit down with her and have a snack, clearly trying to keep DD from getting too rambunctious. All the 3-year-olds seem to be hard to contain at the end of the day, wanting to race wildly back and forth together in the lobby, while the kids closer to 4 and up seem to calm down a lot easier and listen when asked not to wreak havoc. (Most of the time.)

Maybe I'll think differently when mine is 4 or 5, but from what I've observed it seems like something happens between 3 and 4-5, and many kids really become much more conscious of what's going on around them and what the rules are, capable of restraining impulses, and able to listen to instruction and do what they're asked for more than about 30 seconds at a time.

That said, I don't know that I think that this would make it the 4 or 5-year-old's "fault" for wandering away from a parent at the store, rather than the parent's for not keeping an eye. It's hard to judge without knowing all the circumstances.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I would be pretty disturbed by a non-chalant parent being separated from a child that age. Does that make me judgmental?

If you're just saying you would be disturbed, and are owning your own emotion, no. If you tried to shame her, or say she's a bad mom, or she should act differently, then yes.

There's a big difference between naming our own emotions and reactions, and turning around and putting our values on someone else.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm not trying to shame her or say she's a bad mom, but yeah, I guess I do place some judgment when there is a parent that non-chalantly allows a child to be separated from them in a place where they could be kidnapped.

I guess this goes back to the "is judgment always wrong" question, and how far would people go with that. I actually don't think I'm all that judgmental overall of how people parent, but heck yeah, I place a value on situations involving children's safety. I don't see how that's really such a bad thing, but I am also listening with open ears and an open mind.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I noticed a little girl wandering through the store almost in tears. I stopped her and took her to the electronics department to have her mom paged.

The poor kid sunk to the floor and disolved into tears saying "My Mom is going to be so mad at me".

When the mom showed up, she was REALLy mad at the poor kid.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I'm not trying to shame her or say she's a bad mom, but yeah, I guess I do place some judgment when there is a parent that non-chalantly allows a child to be separated from them in a place where they could be kidnapped.

If you take that to its logical conclusion, we should never leave our children in another room in our own homes, because they _could_ be kidnapped from their own home.

What does being "nonchalant" about it have to do with anything? NOBODY in this thread knows what was going on in that mom's head - nobody. We're basically casting judgment on her because the OP has made assumptions about how she lost the child and how she reacted, based on her actions and behaviour at least 15 minutes later, when she knew the child was already found...and even those actions and behaviour tell us nothing without further information.

A parent can care about their child without being visibly freaked out in a socially acceptable manner every time something happens.

Quote:

I actually don't think I'm all that judgmental overall of how people parent, but heck yeah, I place a value on situations involving children's safety. I don't see how that's really such a bad thing, but I am also listening with open ears and an open mind. 
Children's safety is an area where parents have many different opinions. I know many people who believe the "bubble wrap" approach to keeping children safe is actually more damaging overall than taking a few more risks. That doesn't make them bad parents - it means they have different priorities.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Ya know, it's not that big of a deal to me. I'm not all worked up about this.

There *are* parents that don't keep an eye on their kids. So to step away from this exact specific situation for a moment....that does happen. Right?

And I would think that a parent that does not prioritize keeping a young child close to them is not appropriately parenting their kid and keeping them safe.

So while I don't know what this particular mother was thinking (and yes, the OP was about a specific situation), I am speaking more IN GENERAL that I do judge that.

But again, I'm not all worked up about it. I just don't always believe that every parent has their children's best interest in mind. That is naive.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

The number of times I have seen kids literally dropped off at the toy part of the super market so the parents can food shop in peace is ridiculous.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I know that the whole "stranger danger" issue is statistically less likely, but I can't help thinking about Adam Walsh whenever one of mine takes off in a store.







ITA that molestation by a relative is statistically far more likely, but what about abduction, rape and murder?

I really prefer to have my children in FRONT of me in stores. I hate bringing them to Borders, the bookshelves are like a maze, and I can't see behind them. I've got runners, so I definitely NEVER judge the mom with the kid who takes off, but non-chalance about young children wandering alone in a store or other public place? I don't get it...









After one episode of them both running wildly away from me, refusing to listen and stay with me, I carried my kicking and screaming 4 year old out of one store (I'm sure, with many a mom and yet-to-be-a-mom judging freely







hence the reason I never judge any mom dealing with a tantrum) I sat them down, and explained to them *why* I was upset when they ran off and the need to stay with mama. I hated having that conversation with them, and tried to keep it brief and simple, but I like them to know the "whys" behind our rules (at an age appropriate level.)

BTW, Karina, I typed the above before I read the last page, and then scrolled down before posting to see the last few posts. It's bizarre that we both chose the same word to decribe what we're thinking. I'm beginning to think we're dopplegangers with some of our opinions - on pretty widely varying topics!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

As to defining "non-chalance", WRT this situation, I think that chit-chatting on your cell phone while you're strolling up to customer service counter, taking your sweet time to retrieve your child, that's being pretty complacent about child safety.

Again, I've got runners, so I totally understand the kid streaking across the parking lot, the child being found by an employee and a freaked out mom to come and claim them.....but I guess I sort of "expect" some level of "freaked out" if your 4 year old is "missing" for 10 or more minutes in a store, etc.


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## krabigirl (Dec 10, 2006)

It's sad, but what I find even more sad is that we live in a world consumed by so much fear.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I guess "consumed by fear" v. a world including sociopaths is a personal balance. I do (admittedly) tend towards the side of being overprotective, but I partially I think it's because if anything I could have prevented did happen to them, I'd never forgive myself.

Also, I think every parent has their own personal issues - ie I let them climb everything, I stuff down the "ZOMG!!" when they're doing something relatively daring (physically), but protecting re stranger abduction and car seat safety are 2 of my issues.

That and our zombie plan.....


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
That and our zombie plan.....

and i thought dh and i were the only ones!


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krabigirl* 
It's sad, but what I find even more sad is that we live in a world consumed by so much fear.


I don't think most people are consumed by fear at all. There are lots of people on this board who say they won't let anyone watch their kids for 5 minutes unless they are family. To me, that is being consumed by fear, and I have a hard time understanding that.

Keeping on eye on your kid and not letting them get away from you in a store because you are aware that there are creeps in the world is not being "consumed by fear" but using common sense.

HUGE difference. Huge.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Ya know, it's not that big of a deal to me. I'm not all worked up about this.

There *are* parents that don't keep an eye on their kids. So to step away from this exact specific situation for a moment....that does happen. Right?

And I would think that a parent that does not prioritize keeping a young child close to them is not appropriately parenting their kid and keeping them safe.

So while I don't know what this particular mother was thinking (and yes, the OP was about a specific situation), I am speaking more IN GENERAL that I do judge that.

But again, I'm not all worked up about it. I just don't always believe that every parent has their children's best interest in mind. That is naive.

I know for a fact that many parents don't have their children's best interests in mind. I don't believe I ever said otherwise. This thread is about that specific situation, and my comments are about the fact that many people hin this thread seem perfectly comfortable judging the mother for doing things that we have no idea if she was doing or not. She could have been watching that child like a hawk and was distracted for a few seconds when he bolted. Or not. _We don't know._ We're jumping to conclusions based on the fact that, _on her way to pick him up once he was found_, she was talking on her cellphone about the fact that he was lost. That doesn't seem like proof of bad parenting to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
I know that the whole "stranger danger" issue is statistically less likely, but I can't help thinking about Adam Walsh whenever one of mine takes off in a store.







ITA that molestation by a relative is statistically far more likely, but what about abduction, rape and murder?

What does Adam Walsh have to do with it? Adam Walsh was kicked _out_ of the store before he was abducted. He wasn't inside a building at all.

Quote:

I really prefer to have my children in FRONT of me in stores. I hate bringing them to Borders, the bookshelves are like a maze, and I can't see behind them. I've got runners, so I definitely NEVER judge the mom with the kid who takes off, but non-chalance about young children wandering alone in a store or other public place? I don't get it...








You don't have to. Different people have different comfort zones. I also still haven't seen the post that proved the mom in the OP was nonchalant.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I don't think most people are consumed by fear at all. There are lots of people on this board who say they won't let anyone watch their kids for 5 minutes unless they are family. To me, that is being consumed by fear, and I have a hard time understanding that.

Keeping on eye on your kid and not letting them get away from you in a store because you are aware that there are creeps in the world is not being "consumed by fear" but using common sense.

Statistically, the creeps are more likely to be friends or relatives than a random person in a store. The random person in the store is also under at least casual observation by other shoppers, whereas the person watching your child has them all to themselves.

I let my kids be watched by several people who aren't family (although ds1 and my mom are our main babysitters). It's not something I freak out about, but I also consider it far, far more dangerous to leave my child with anyone than to proceed at a walk when rounding them up in a store. Of all the people I personally know who were sexually and/or physically (non-sexual physical) abused as children, _none_ of them were abused by strangers, and none of them were abused in a public place. Yes - it happens. That doesn't make the people who are more concerned about the identity of their children's caregivers than they are about every random person in the mall "consumed by fear". They simply have different priorities.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Well, I guess I got Adam Walsh mixed up with the "child abducted/raped/murdered from a public place" poster child...that's what all of those "Code Adam" plans will do to someone, I guess.









Anywhoo, I do think there is a responsibility of the watching parent to mainatain a reasonable sense of security re their child in public places. Runner? Yup, it happens. Kid that took off and hid or something along those racks? Of course! But letting a 5 or under kiddo "disappear" (either by your own not watching them or their sprinting) and you shrug it off? Yeah, I'll judge that.

And if you are ambling, or otherwise not hustling to the best of your ability, and CHATTING on the cell phone (not "BATMAN! they have my baby!!") you're being "non-chalant." Of course, that's my humble opinion, and probably my judgement, but that's what I think.

Of course, don't talk to me about parents who let their kids watch too much Noggin...'cause I'm really bad in that category


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Storm Bride, I'm well aware of the statistics about family being most likely to be abusers. And I realize that the likelihoold of a kid being abducted in a mall or something is pretty slim. It's much more likely that a nice person will try to help a child find their parent, and I am so thankful for that! 

It seemed to me that the conversation was taking a turn from talking about this specific situation into one that is more generally about watching your kids.

This seems to be a very difficult discussion for you. I'm sorry it's upsetting.







: I think we agree more than disagree to be honest, LOL.

All I'm saying is that a parent should watch their kid in public. Really, that's all. And yes, kids run away. It happens. But a parent should - IMO - not leave a kid alone in the toy department (for example) while getting groceries.

If a parents set of priorities is that they will purposefully leave a young kid in one department while in another, then I don't think they are being diligent parents, and that is - again - not "living in fear" but using common sense.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Again, BTW, I ask about stats re sexual molestation v. abduction/sexual molestation/murder. I'll bet that people the child knows head the category in the former, but the latter???

I'm way more terrified of the latter...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
All I'm saying is that a parent should watch their kid in public. Really, that's all. And yes, kids run away. It happens. But a parent should - IMO - not leave a kid alone in the toy department (for example) while getting groceries.

If a parents set of priorities is that they will purposefully leave a young kid in one department while in another, then I don't think they are being diligent parents, and that is - again - not "living in fear" but using common sense.

I suspect we don't actually agree more than we disagree. I used to let ds1 play in the toy aisle while I grocery shopped on a fairly regular basis. He frequently had his cousin with him, but not always. When we did it that way, he stayed put in the toy aisle, and came with me no problem when I picked him before going through the checkout. He and I got really good mom/son time on the way there and back...and I didn't have to worry about disappearing acts and chasing him all over the store.

BlueStateMama: I'm far more terrified of the former. The latter is far more severe, but it's also far, far, far more rare.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Okay, then. We disagree. I'm okay with that.

And FWIW, I don't judge very much at all, but yes, I guess I judge stuff now and again, like everyone. We all have our hot-button issues, and our warm-button issues. This would be a warm-button issue for me, because as I mentioned earlier, this isn't something I'm all worked up about. And it's cool that it's a hot button issue for you.









I've gotta get on a work call in a minute or I would elaborate just a bit...but that iss the bottom line.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I have two very impulsive, independent runners. My 6 year old is too big to sit in the cart or a stroller, or to use a harness. I recently bought a harness for my toddler, since he's always trying to launch himself out of the cart, stroller, and carrier, and he jerks his hand out of mine. I have no idea if the harness will work yet, but I can hope... Neither child listens to me or follows my directions reliably. My children are challenging. But, I have them all day, every day, and we have to leave the house to run errands and live life.

I've been judged plenty as a mother these past 6.5 years. My 6 year old runs through the store, and nothing I do can stop him. I'm not lucky enough to be able to do my grocery shopping without him as often as I'd like. He has some special needs, which explains some of his behavior, but few people would know by looking at him. So, I get the "bad mom" looks and whispers. I have to trust that he will be the next aisle over waiting for me, and won't knock someone down.

I had to really trust him recently. I was in the middle of paying for the groceries, when he suddenly exclaimed, "I have to go potty" and ran off to the bathroom - on the other side of the store. There was nothing I could do at that moment. I had to finish paying, and by the time I could've wrestled the cart out of the lane and brought it around, DS1 would've already been at the bathroom. So, I considered the potential dangers (molestation, abduction) and the liklihood that he'd make it there and back safely (very likely - he knows the store well), and I decided to finish what I was doing and wait for him. I probably looked nonchalant. He made it back safely. I told him that I was worried, and not to do that again. Will he do it again? Probably. Will I worry? Certainly. Do I have to loosen my hold on him, bit by bit, as he grows up? Definitely. Whether I like it or not. And he will always be ready before I am.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
...I've often wanted to take a person's child around the corner, or to the service desk, or mostly, to the police station, just to show them how easily they could loose their child. I know I'd be arrested, but I wish I could work out a deal with the police station to do it....

Oh I'm glad you said this. I want to do that often too!! Let's just say that I watched some really irresponsible people walk way ahead of their 2-ish year old child and a few other older kids through a poorly lit parking lot once, and I wanted to just go and get the little one and walk off to scare the crap out of them so they'd think twice about her safety next time. Truth is though, if they already don't care, that probably won't change their thinking either.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
...80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared*...

This is slightly off topic, but how can people look at the world today and think it's just as safe as it was 50 years ago....? Sure, in some aspects it is, and maybe in some places it still is; but it's generally a very different place. I think it's naive to say that people are "just scared" -- they SHOULD be worried about what their kids are up to. Anyways, I think that's a whole other topic - one that would probably end up getting pulled.









Anyways, when it comes to the original post; I think what the OP was trying to get across is that the child was young enough for it to be alarming; and the mother didn't seem to give too much of a care that the kid disappeared 'again'. If it were me and my child was running off, it wouldn't matter how often it happened, it would still scare me good every time.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Because I don't form my opinion by looking around, I form it by looking at statistics, and the statistics say that things like abductions and murder etc aren't any higher now than they were a few decades ago.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It's actually a common recommendation that children who are lost should look for a mother with children to help them. It's easier for them to identify, and statistically mothers with children are the least likely to be predators. So I don't think that's odd at all. I've taught my daughter that if she ever gets lost (she hasn't) to look for a mom with kids. Have you read Protecting the Gift? That's where I read that recommendation first, though I've seen it elsewhere since then as well.

Exactly what I was going to say...this is what I tell dd(8)to do.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

I am going to teach my son that the world is full of pretty good people on the whole. I am not going to fill his head with fear because that is not how I live and not how I want him to live.

I am going to let him walk to the corner store by himself and play outside with his friends by himself.

He can walk to school and walk home.

And I am going to try really hard to not judge other Mom's until I am walking in their shoes and dealing with their issues.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Were you there when he got lost?

When ds1 was little, he frequently took off on me when we were grocery shopping. I wasn't "too preoccupied" - I was incapable of physically holding onto him, and my basket, and whatever I was taking off the shelf, all at the same time. He'd bolt. I'd go after him, but he was faster than me. On at least three occasions, he managed to actually get lost, and once he went to customer service.

My son did this once and only once. Now he's on a leash or in the cart in the store. A leash is less humiliating and frightening then a child running away and either getting picked up or escaping into a car lot and getting hit by a car.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
Do I have to loosen my hold on him, bit by bit, as he grows up? Definitely. Whether I like it or not. *And he will always be ready before I am.*

Oh, yeah. That is so, so true. DS1 is getting so close to "leaving the nest" - probably only a couple more years. I'm nowhere _near_ ready for that...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
This is slightly off topic, but how can people look at the world today and think it's just as safe as it was 50 years ago....?

What makes you think it isn't?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry* 
My son did this once and only once. Now he's on a leash or in the cart in the store. A leash is less humiliating and frightening then a child running away and either getting picked up or escaping into a car lot and getting hit by a car.

If you read my other posts, I have no problem with harnesses. (I won't call anything that I use on my child a "leash" - my own preference.) I honestly never thought of it with ds1, as I don't consider the store particularly dangerous, and he showed no interest whatsoever in bolting for outside.

Harnesses also don't work on all children. If you put a harness on a child, and they flop to the floor and refuse to walk, the harness doesn't accomplish much. Sure - you can carry them, but there's not much point in using the harness if you have to carry them, anyway.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 

I am going to let him walk to the corner store by himself and play outside with his friends by himself.

He can walk to school and walk home.

.


What ages can he do this? Because I let my kid play outside alone when he was 2. We have no corner store but I would think that around 7 is a good age for this. Also, in my current neighborhood I would let him walk to a friends down the road when he is around 4, maybe 5. My old neighborhood I would want him to be older, given the neighborhood itself.

Since all neighborhoods, yards, and corner stores are not the same it's interesting to think about how old a child could safely do such things!

ETA: I would let my 5 year old walk home from school, again in this neighborhood. Not the last 2 places I lived, though.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

wow I feel like I must be the most over protective parent ever. my poor children!

I don't understand the arguement "its just as safe as it was 50 years ago" I'm not saying I dont agree with it, I am just saying I don't see the relevance? people got abducted then, and they do now. (however infrequently) maybe its where I live. maybe its because within the first year I lived here there was an amber alert flashing on one of our highway signs. maybe I was too easily influenced by the stories and movies about children being abducted.

if car accidents became just as rare, would you drive around without your child in a car seat, booster seat, or seat belt?

I'm not going to hold my child's have forever, but if I think my child is with me, and then they aren't, and they are scared, and someone finds them, I'm not going to wait 10 minutes to go to them. Sure, might be reassuring to know that they aren't really lost, someone found them, but if anything, its inappropriate to expect a store clerk to play babysitter for you while you take your time to go pick up your child. If the child ran off, you'd be looking for them (I would think) and be worried. If you allow your child to wander around, they wouldn't feel worried in this situation, and if they did why would you just leave them n someone elses care when it is not their responsability to babysit. IF you want someone to babysit your child while you shop, hire a babysitter.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Not just other parents, other _mothers_.

This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

Can't we just accept that different people have different comfort zones, and that we don't know anyone else's full story, and just lay off the judgmental shaming please? There's a huge and important difference between "I wouldn't" and "how could she??"

This is how Adam Walsh lost his life. His mother would take him to the store and tell him to stay in the sameplace in the store to wait for her. One day, that kid was gone, and they later found his head in a marsh. The parents divorced, and John Walsh has spent his life capturing criminals and hosting America's Most Wanted.

I don't judge to be shallow. I judge because I fear for these children. I fear because when my mom left us alone in a store to do something, it scared the hell out of me. This isn't a matter of cultural norms, where one time it was OK and now it's not. It's never been OK.

Beisdes that, it's impolite. I've had unattended children at the library and even at Church steal my kid's toys, throw stuff into the aisles, and trip and fall with no one around to pick them up and wipe away their tears.

If you have a child that runs off, solve the problem, don't give up and say "my kid runs away no matter what I do." Put the toddler in a back pack or the preschooler on a leash. It's less effort than dealing with the kid hit by a cart because he ran around a corner, or expecting other kids to parent your child currently emptying the library shelf of all its books, or worse, having your kid become that rare statistic of a child who never comes home again.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry* 
If you have a child that runs off, solve the problem, don't give up and say "my kid runs away no matter what I do." Put the toddler in a back pack or the preschooler on a leash. It's less effort than dealing with the kid hit by a cart because he ran around a corner, or expecting other kids to parent your child currently emptying the library shelf of all its books, or worse, having your kid become that rare statistic of a child who never comes home again.

The solution to the problem with my 6 year old is to avoid taking him shopping. But, that's not always possible.
I can yell at him, sounding like a really mean mom to everyone else, because he's much more likely to respond to that than to my normal voice. Of course, then I'll be the mom people write about here, right? And, really, yelling only works occasionally. Just like, occasionally, getting him involved in the shopping helps. Nothing works all the time. Sometimes, nothing works at all. So, do I grab him and hold him tight (eliciting more "bad mom" looks and comments) and drag him along with me and my toddler, right out the door (or pick them both up, one in each arm, kicking and screaming, creating a more dangerous situation), and grab fast food for dinner (bad mommy)? Do I let him wander to the next aisle, and trust that he'll be okay? Do I accept that he's not going to act like a model citizen, but, chances are, no one will get hurt?

The solutions in books and online simply don't work for every child out there. Some of us have children who are much more challenging than you can perhaps imagine. They're great kids, but they're difficult to parent. Judge away. I've always been blamed for it anyway. Most people think I should just take a belt to them. Whatever.


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Oh I'm glad you said this. I want to do that often too!! Let's just say that I watched some really irresponsible people walk way ahead of their 2-ish year old child and a few other older kids through a poorly lit parking lot once, and I wanted to just go and get the little one and walk off to scare the crap out of them so they'd think twice about her safety next time. Truth is though, if they already don't care, that probably won't change their thinking either.








.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

We had someone here locally that handed a note to a kid waiting for the bus to pre-k, so the kid was 5 tops. The kid was alone, and it wasn't a happy neighborhood. The person handed a note to the child and asked that they give said note to the parents. It said something along the lines of "I was able to get close enough to your child to hand them this note. Imagine if I had ill intent." That child wasn't left alone at the bus stop for a good long while. I've been tempted to do this myself occasionally.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry* 
This is how Adam Walsh lost his life. His mother would take him to the store and tell him to stay in the sameplace in the store to wait for her. One day, that kid was gone,

Adam Walsh was _kicked out of the store by a clerk and sent alone into a parking lot!_. He was _not_ abducted from the store.

Quote:

I don't judge to be shallow. I judge because I fear for these children. I fear because when my mom left us alone in a store to do something, it scared the hell out of me.
Fair enough. It didn't scare the hell out of me at all. I loved it. So did ds1.

Quote:

This isn't a matter of cultural norms, where one time it was OK and now it's not. It's never been OK.
Your opinion. I don't share it.

Quote:

Beisdes that, it's impolite. I've had unattended children at the library and even at Church steal my kid's toys, throw stuff into the aisles, and trip and fall with no one around to pick them up and wipe away their tears.
When I first started letting ds1 play in the toy aisle, I used to check up on him, without him knowing I was there. He didn't steal stuff (not that kids in the toy aisle at the grocery store generally had any toys with them) and he wasn't disruptive.

Quote:

If you have a child that runs off, solve the problem, don't give up and say "my kid runs away no matter what I do." Put the toddler in a back pack or the preschooler on a leash. It's less effort than...
Who says? It was less effort for _you_. Believe it or not, other parents _aren't you_. Putting some kids in a harness is a huge, major undertaking and doesn't end up saving any effort or accomplishing anything...except that you get to carry a 40+ pound child wearing a harness. Putting a child in a backpack when you're still recovering from surgery is nearly impossible - and generally pretty stupid.

Besides, you have to think it's a problem in order to "solve" it. As long as ds1 wasn't running into people or going outside, I didn't consider it a problem. DS2's running off has been a problem and has required much more restraint and restriction...including not taking him out very much. He still runs off, though.

Quote:

...dealing with the kid hit by a cart because he ran around a corner, or expecting other kids to parent your child currently emptying the library shelf of all its books, or worse, having your kid become that rare statistic of a child who never comes home again.
My kids, historically, have been far, far more likely to hurt themselves when they're _in_ a cart than when they're running around. I would never let ds2 play in the toy aisle, as I did with ds1, because ds2 probably _would_ pull stuff off the shelves and throw things, which isn't acceptable. As for the rare statistic - that's what it is - _rare_. Obviously, I would be devastated if my child were one of them...but I don't parent based on things that are extremely rare. It's not the way I think or the way I do things. That doesn't make me an unfit parent, and it doesn't make the more protective brigade of parents better. It means we have different priorities and different experiences and make different decisions.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

lotus-

but when your child wanders off, and you find out where they are, do you leave them with someone you dont know for 10 minutes who is not responsible for looking after them?

i think this is what concerns some people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
The solution to the problem with my 6 year old is to avoid taking him shopping. But, that's not always possible.
I can yell at him, sounding like a really mean mom to everyone else, because he's much more likely to respond to that than to my normal voice. Of course, then I'll be the mom people write about here, right? And, really, yelling only works occasionally. Just like, occasionally, getting him involved in the shopping helps. Nothing works all the time. Sometimes, nothing works at all. So, do I grab him and hold him tight (eliciting more "bad mom" looks and comments) and drag him along with me and my toddler, right out the door (or pick them both up, one in each arm, kicking and screaming, creating a more dangerous situation), and grab fast food for dinner (bad mommy)? Do I let him wander to the next aisle, and trust that he'll be okay? Do I accept that he's not going to act like a model citizen, but, chances are, no one will get hurt?

The solutions in books and online simply don't work for every child out there. Some of us have children who are much more challenging than you can perhaps imagine. They're great kids, but they're difficult to parent.

Yup.
There are also times when it's more difficult to parent, in general. I'm sure people who saw me walking around in a daze, not focusing enough on either my kids or my shopping (almost walked into people several times) a year or so ago were thinking all the nasty, superior thoughts in the world. I suppose I _could_ have posted a sign on myself saying "grieving mom recovering from surgery - still need food", but I can't quite see myself doing that. Dealing with my kids when we need food, and I'm very late pregnancy and/or post-op presents challenges, too. And, you know, when you explain that, most people are all, "oh - yeah - that's _different_"...but none of the judgmental people at the store can see whether or not my son died or I have a surgical incision on my abdomen...and it doesn't even slow them down.

Dealing with ds2, in particular, is _hard_. Dealing with him in certain situations is virtually impossible...but we still need to eat.

Quote:

Judge away. I've always been blamed for it anyway. Most people think I should just take a belt to them. Whatever.
Yup. I've been advised to give ds2 a smack on multiple occasions, as well. Many people would think I was being more proactive (or whatever they think) - and others would think I was an abusive parent.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
lotus-

but when your child wanders off, and you find out where they are, do you leave them with someone you dont know for 10 minutes who is not responsible for looking after them?

i think this is what concerns some people.

Where was she for that 10 minutes? I actually don't know. Maybe she has intestinal issues that flare up under stress, and _had_ to use a bathroom. (I have problems with that, especially since my third section. I mean...I'd like to say that I'd keep looking and ignore it, but I really don't think I would. Having a missing child _and_ peeing my pants doesn't really seem like a superior situation.) Maybe she called a friend or something to try to calm down while looking and was concentrating on _that_ and didn't hear the page. Maybe she was checking out and felt that she had to finish, instead of leaving the register and keeping people waiting (probably not my choice, but one I could understand). Maybe she did just think, "oh, okay - he's fine, so I'm going to finish my conversation". The point is...we don't know.

Plus, many people do think of customer service in a store as "responsible"...and many people leave their children every day with people they don't know...teachers, daycare workers, nurse (in the hospital) etc. Sure - some people vet them very carefully and meet them multiple times, but lots of people don't.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Regarding Adam Walsh...that is up for debate on whether he was kicked out of the store or not. It's not known whether or not that happened, but still, if a parent had been with him it would not have happened (my heart still aches for his parents). :-(

Regardless, there have been other young kids abducted so this isn't all about Adam Walsh.

I also believe that the world isn't necessarily more dangerous than it was 50 years ago. The myth of the Norman Rockwell ideal isn't really reality. Kids had heinous things happen to them a long time ago, too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaFox* 
We had someone here locally that handed a note to a kid waiting for the bus to pre-k, so the kid was 5 tops. The kid was alone, and it wasn't a happy neighborhood. The person handed a note to the child and asked that they give said note to the parents. It said something along the lines of "I was able to get close enough to your child to hand them this note. Imagine if I had ill intent." That child wasn't left alone at the bus stop for a good long while. I've been tempted to do this myself occasionally.

You know, I personally wouldn't leave a 5 year old at the bus stop alone, as it's outside my comfort zone. However, I can tell you that, as a small child, I would have probably let many adults approach me with the note...but not all. Sometimes, I met an adult who made me edgy, and I wouldn't let them get close to me. It's not infallible, but if kids are allowed/encouraged to trust their instincts, they can pick up on ill intent in some cases. The fact that a well-intentioned person got close to the child doesn't prove that a creep could have. I'm not saying he/she couldn't - but the one doesn't necessarily follow the other.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

some people are making this personal when it is not.

children run off. some parents look, some dont. some parents find them, some dont. *some parents go get their child when their child is found, some dont.* some seem to care, some dont. I think the problem is really with the bolded.

I dont care what age my child is, if they are lost and scared (even if *I* think they shouldn't be I certainly am not going to tell them how they should feel, or tell them how they dont feel) I am going to comfort my child and talk to them about not getting lost. and most importantly, I am not going to expect a store employee to babysit my child. If they call me, I'm going to go pick up my child. If Im on the phone, I'm going to say "they found him, I'll call you back" she came 10 minutes after they found him and called her. so I dont understand the idea that "she was just letting someone know they found the child" wasnt she doing that 10 minutes ago, when the child was found?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Regarding Adam Walsh...that is up for debate on whether he was kicked out of the store or not. It's not known whether or not that happened, but still, if a parent had been with him it would not have happened (my heart still aches for his parents). :-(

Really? I'll have to check that out. I'd only ever read that he was kicked out of the store.

Nobody ever said Norman Rockwell was the reality. I just don't get why having different priorities as a parent is subject to so much negativity. I felt the benefit of ds1 and I having relatively unstressed one-on-one time together on the way to and from the store was worth the trivial risk involved in leaving him the toy aisle while I grabbed groceries. You don't. That's fine. I'm not judging you for seeing things differently...but it sure doesn't stop other people for piling the judgment on me and others like me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

well if my child gets lost in a store, if I cant find them quickly *which ovciously this parent could if she was looking* I would go to the front and let them know the situation - then continue looking, listening to be pages. not talk on the phone. If im in the bathroom having issues, I'll get off the phone with my friend, call 411, get the number for the store, call the store and tell them I am on my way to the front ASAP. that would take less then 10 minutes. maybe not every parent would do that. maybe there are 100 more what ifs. I'm sure parents of children who HAVE been abducted ask themselves a lot of what if questions too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
some people are making this personal when it is not.

children run off. some parents look, some dont. some parents find them, some dont. *some parents go get their child when their child is found, some dont.* some seem to care, some dont. I think the problem is really with the bolded.

I dont care what age my child is, *if they are lost and scared* (even if *I* think they shouldn't be I certainly am not going to tell them how they should feel, or tell them how they dont feel) I am going to comfort my child and talk to them about not getting lost. and most importantly, I am not going to expect a store employee to babysit my child. If they call me, I'm going to go pick up my child. If Im on the phone, I'm going to say "they found him, I'll call you back" she came 10 minutes after they found him and called her. so I dont understand the idea that "she was just letting someone know they found the child" wasnt she doing that 10 minutes ago, when the child was found?

You know...I think I'm an okay mom, but I actually lack the superpower that enables me to know if my child is scared when I'm not near them. DS1 was obviously at leas a little upset the time he went to customer service, but I never would have suspected it...because he was normally happy to play in the toy aisle the whole trip (in fact, he preferred it) and/or play "hide and seek" with me. (He liked to sneak after me, and follow me through the store without letting me see him.)

Who said she was letting someone know they found the child? I think I'm getting lost.

My point is that we _don't know_ what she was doing. Are you going to go get your child if you're in the bathroom? What if you don't hear the page and are actually looking for him somewhere else? What if you've actually gone outside to look, because you're afraid he got into the parking lot?

And, of course this is personal. You can't say "a mom does X is a negligent, no-good parent, and we're going to pour judgment on her, but _you_ (me or other MDC mom) are a perfectly okay parent, even though you do the same thing and/or could imagine doing the same thing".


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Nobody ever said Norman Rockwell was the reality. I just don't get why having different priorities as a parent is subject to so much negativity. I felt the benefit of ds1 and I having relatively unstressed one-on-one time together on the way to and from the store was worth the trivial risk involved in leaving him the toy aisle while I grabbed groceries. You don't. That's fine. I'm not judging you for seeing things differently...but it sure doesn't stop other people for piling the judgment on me and others like me.


I was referencing people who think the world was safer 50 years ago (which I don't believe it is). And I don't think parents having different priorities is a problem, depending on their priorities. Certainly not all priorities are okey dokey in everyone's book, right?

How old was your boy while he was in the toy aisle alone, StormBride? YOu keep bringing that up as an example, and I think that's EXTREMELY relevant.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

nothing you have said Lisa makes you sound anything like the lady in the original post. what it sounds like to me is you have low self esteem especially in regards to your parents, which sounds fine and like you are a bit stressed (I understand all those feelings). it sounds like you have gotten some dirty looks and judgement in times where you shouldnt have, so ANYTIME someone thinks a parent does something wrong you want to side with them, as if that in some way you are defending yourself from those unfair judgements you have recieved.

I've gotten dirty looks a lot of times too. maybe people even post about me on the internet. if they want to discuss a hypothetical situation based on something they saw, I really dont mind. I know that I put my childrens safety first, and that I don't physically, verbally, or emotionally abuse them. If I think I see something like that, I will have negative feelings about that. I am judging what I perceived, not the person directly. Maybe there are factors I don't know, but the fact is I dont know them and I don't think that makes me a freak to feel uneasy awhen I think children are in harms way or being physically/emotionally/verbally hurt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
well if my child gets lost in a store, if I cant find them quickly *which ovciously this parent could if she was looking* I would go to the front and let them know the situation - then continue looking, listening to be pages. not talk on the phone. If im in the bathroom having issues, I'll get off the phone with my friend, call 411, get the number for the store, call the store and tell them I am on my way to the front ASAP. that would take less then 10 minutes. maybe not every parent would do that. maybe there are 100 more what ifs. I'm sure parents of children who HAVE been abducted ask themselves a lot of what if questions too.

It would never even occur to me to call 411 for the number to the store...wouldn't even cross my mind to call a store I was actually in.

In any case, we've established that you would handle it all perfectly, and other moms just aren't as good as you. (Heck - the mom in the OP handled it so badly, she probably shouldn't even _have_ kids.) You've established yourself as the perfect mother, so you don't really need to post here, anymore. Congratulations. I've established myself as one of those no-good, negligent moms, so I guess I'm done, too.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
You know...I think I'm an okay mom, but I actually lack the superpower that enables me to know if my child is scared when I'm not near them. DS1 was obviously at leas a little upset the time he went to customer service, but I never would have suspected it...because he was normally happy to play in the toy aisle the whole trip (in fact, he preferred it) and/or play "hide and seek" with me. (He liked to sneak after me, and follow me through the store without letting me see him.)

Who said she was letting someone know they found the child? I think I'm getting lost.

My point is that we _don't know_ what she was doing. Are you going to go get your child if you're in the bathroom? What if you don't hear the page and are actually looking for him somewhere else? What if you've actually gone outside to look, because you're afraid he got into the parking lot?

And, of course this is personal. You can't say "a mom does X is a negligent, no-good parent, and we're going to pour judgment on her, but _you_ (me or other MDC mom) are a perfectly okay parent, even though you do the same thing and/or could imagine doing the same thing".

if your child has you called to the front, and you get there and they are scared, that doesnt require supernatural powers. you keep making this about you, not about the situation described. stop being so hard on yourself. focus more on the first statement of this post. look in a mirror and repeat it out loud several times a day. its true, but a lot of what you say in this thread and others makes it sound like you are super hard on yourself







s


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 

The solutions in books and online simply don't work for every child out there. Some of us have children who are much more challenging than you can perhaps imagine. They're great kids, but they're difficult to parent. Judge away. I've always been blamed for it anyway. Most people think I should just take a belt to them. Whatever.

I wouldn't dare say take a belt to him. And I think a six year old is different than a three year old.

My child is the "take every book off the shelf" kid. Just a few months ago, we were actually asked to leave the library.

I still don't think you should give up. I know some GD parents are against ANY type of negotiation or reward/punishments, but I think where safety is concerned bribery isn't out of the question. Maybe you could offer a privilege or treat? I don't think "I've tried everything, there's nothing I can do" is a wise choice to make in parenting.

And believe you me, if my child was still running away from me at 6, I would have him tied at the waist. I'd let him know that I'd only take it off if he listened, and the moment he didn't it would be on again. I let my kids climb on things other parents don't, and I don't have to have them within three feet of me, but if they can't stay within sight and have to be destructive, then I take stronger measures. I want my kids to be free range, but I don't want them to be terrors.

But if you have given up, and it looks like quite a few parents in this thread have, then you better be prepared for me to parent your child in public. Just yesterday we were in the doctor's waiting room and a little girl kept taking things out of my daughter's hands left and right, and I had no idea who the parent was because none of the adults in the room were watching or cared. I asked her several times to stop taking my daughter's things and finally put my hand on hers when she reached for the toy again and said very firmly "No," picked her up, and moved her away.

the mom finally got upset, because I the strange adult had picked up her child. Too bad. Your kid made mine cry and you didn't care or have given up trying, but I do care.

And I have done this in the mall playground,too. I have called out very loudly "who is the parent to this boy in the blue shirt?" after a kid tried to push mine off the slide, and when no one reacted, I told the boy that it was not OK to push my child. He did it again, and I picked him up off of the slide. Then he started chasing my son around the playground, and my son was screaming and asking him to stop. When I finally caught up to them, my son was crying and hiding behind me, and I held on to that kid and called out for a parent until a parent actually reacted, and of course they were mad that I was mandhandling their child.

if your kid is well behaved in public, fine, by all means, let them wander off in the store. But if they aren't, I WILL PARENT YOUR CHILD FOR YOU.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
nothing you have said Lisa makes you sound anything like the lady in the original post. what it sounds like to me is you have low self esteem especially in regards to your parents, which sounds fine and like you are a bit stressed (I understand all those feelings). it sounds like you have gotten some dirty looks and judgement in times where you shouldnt have, so ANYTIME someone thinks a parent does something wrong you want to side with them, as if that in some way you are defending yourself from those unfair judgements you have recieved.

Okay - I wasn't quite done, after all.

It has nothing to do with "siding with" the mom in the OP. She could be a completely negligent parent, for all I know.

It has to do with the fact that _we don't know_ what her situation was, or what her circumstances are, or how often the little boy in question disappears. We know very, very, very little about the situation, and it bothers me that moms are always so freaking ready to dogpile on any other mother when they don't agree with the way she parents - especially based on _one_ incident at a grocery store!

I'm an adequate parent, overall. There have been "snapshot" moments of me where I look like Supermom...and "snapshot" moments of me where I'm almost surprised some well-meaning buttinsky didn't call CPS. Neither of those is reality. I know moms who are awesome at home who look terrible sometimes in public...and moms who are the other way around.

I'm just not a big fan of the national (well - international - it's common in both the US and Canada) pastime of entertaining ourselves by kicking other mothers over single incidents of public parenting.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It would never even occur to me to call 411 for the number to the store...wouldn't even cross my mind to call a store I was actually in.

In any case, we've established that you would handle it all perfectly, and other moms just aren't as good as you. (Heck - the mom in the OP handled it so badly, she probably shouldn't even _have_ kids.) You've established yourself as the perfect mother, so you don't really need to post here, anymore. Congratulations. I've established myself as one of those no-good, negligent moms, so I guess I'm done, too.

you really jump to conclusions. I;m just sharing what I have concluded I would do if ever in that situation. If anything, I think this post was good in the sense we were able to share ideas and brainstorm. before I read this post, I never would have thought to teach my children to go to a mother to ask for help! I am far from perfect, but I AM willing to admit when I am wrong and learn something to I can do better in the future. I dont think you've established yourself to be bad in any way, just hard on yourself.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I was referencing people who think the world was safer 50 years ago (which I don't believe it is). And I don't think parents having different priorities is a problem, depending on their priorities. Certainly not all priorities are okey dokey in everyone's book, right?

*How old was your boy while he was in the toy aisle alone, StormBride? YOu keep bringing that up as an example, and I think that's EXTREMELY relevant*.


Quoting myself because I'm very curious.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

or maybe you oculd look at it as a hypothetical situation based on what the OP saw, and based on those assumptions what can we learn and is there anything we can take away from this to be better parents ourselves in the future. which is what I did. I learned about the mother thing instead of store employee, and I came up with a "bathroom plan" all the what if questions help, it gives us something to think about it. so they werent bad to bring up in any way. good in fact to discuss them. no one was hurt, as this person is nameless. Perhaps the lady at the front counter could have offered more friendly support to figure out what was going on then to jump the gun and judge her, but for the posters here, some of us were operating on the hypothetical situation (assumptions and all) and some of us were opperating on the "what if" front. I dont think that makes anyone a bad mother, or that means anyone here thinks they are "perfect" or "better" then everyone else. I think while you sit here saying people shouldnt judge and be mean, you are doing exactly that - because we respond different then you we must be stuck up know it all mamas who think out poo dont stink. thats not the case.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

alisa I think that is appropriate to protect your child from other children when parents aren't doing so. I hope you don't get flamed for saying that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

SGM: I apologize for my tone - the crack about being the perfect mom was out of line. I'm unfortunately sick with a flu (probably - it's going around) bug and when I get sick, I inevitably get a bit depressed...and very irritable.

alisa: While I can certainly see a few times in my past where I may have been oblivious enough not to realize my kid was being completely out of control, I really can't imagine anyone getting mad at you for protecting your child. (Okay - I can. I'm sometimes not very nice when I'm mortified - but it's still not okay.)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it's okay, I understand I get like that too. when I am sick I turn into super bad mom - lots of tv, i dont clean, very low patience level. I just don't like hearing mamas be so hard on themselves. While I will judge a situtuation, I tend to have sympathy for the person at the same time (wondering how they themselves were brought up, if they even KNOW a better way, etc) I have to say your posts do make me think - they give me ideas on how I can improve personally, and also how I can have more compassion for people in person. Things like tantrums I tend not to judge - I look at that parent and wish I could help in some way, but I dont feel right stepping in... matters of safety I can't help but my initial reaction be WTH is wrong with that person. While these types of discussion tend to go the route of a debate, I think in the end it has the potential to be educational to all of us. I think it is better people post these comments, then not post them ya know? it gives us a chance to "hash it out" and learn something. because honestly, this post made me feel like an idiot a few times about child safety and I am thankful it was posted and I am thankful for the words of the mama's who were accused of being judgemental (either by themselves or by others) and I am thankful for all the what if questions.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

But if you have given up, and it looks like quite a few parents in this thread have, then you better be prepared for me to parent your child in public. Just yesterday we were in the doctor's waiting room and a little girl kept taking things out of my daughter's hands left and right, and I had no idea who the parent was because none of the adults in the room were watching or cared. I asked her several times to stop taking my daughter's things and finally put my hand on hers when she reached for the toy again and said very firmly "No," picked her up, and moved her away.

the mom finally got upset, because I the strange adult had picked up her child. Too bad. Your kid made mine cry and you didn't care or have given up trying, but I do care.

A gentle suggestion - I don't think there's anything wrong with telling another child "no" when no parent is around/interested in stopping them from taking toys from your child or the like, but I'd probably be really careful about picking up someone else's child and moving them. Unless they were hurting my child or otherwise presenting a danger, I'd stick to the verbal. Actually, I'd probably just pick up my own child and move them some place away from the other child.

Our society is litigous, and I'd avoid physically handling anyone else's child unless it was unavoidable, or I was protecting *them* from harm. I've spoken to other kids before (ie like the two older boys who were being really nasty to my son at an indoor play place, or the group of kids that was following around an overweight preschooler, so that when she was out of sight of her caregiver, they went up to her and called her names - I did not use my kindest voice in those situations, believe me...)


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry* 
I wouldn't dare say take a belt to him. And I think a six year old is different than a three year old.

My child is the "take every book off the shelf" kid. Just a few months ago, we were actually asked to leave the library.

I still don't think you should give up. I know some GD parents are against ANY type of negotiation or reward/punishments, but I think where safety is concerned bribery isn't out of the question. Maybe you could offer a privilege or treat? I don't think "I've tried everything, there's nothing I can do" is a wise choice to make in parenting.

And believe you me, if my child was still running away from me at 6, I would have him tied at the waist. I'd let him know that I'd only take it off if he listened, and the moment he didn't it would be on again. I let my kids climb on things other parents don't, and I don't have to have them within three feet of me, but if they can't stay within sight and have to be destructive, then I take stronger measures. I want my kids to be free range, but I don't want them to be terrors.

But if you have given up, and it looks like quite a few parents in this thread have, then you better be prepared for me to parent your child in public. Just yesterday we were in the doctor's waiting room and a little girl kept taking things out of my daughter's hands left and right, and I had no idea who the parent was because none of the adults in the room were watching or cared. I asked her several times to stop taking my daughter's things and finally put my hand on hers when she reached for the toy again and said very firmly "No," picked her up, and moved her away.

the mom finally got upset, because I the strange adult had picked up her child. Too bad. Your kid made mine cry and you didn't care or have given up trying, but I do care.

And I have done this in the mall playground,too. I have called out very loudly "who is the parent to this boy in the blue shirt?" after a kid tried to push mine off the slide, and when no one reacted, I told the boy that it was not OK to push my child. He did it again, and I picked him up off of the slide. Then he started chasing my son around the playground, and my son was screaming and asking him to stop. When I finally caught up to them, my son was crying and hiding behind me, and I held on to that kid and called out for a parent until a parent actually reacted, and of course they were mad that I was mandhandling their child.

if your kid is well behaved in public, fine, by all means, let them wander off in the store. But if they aren't, I WILL PARENT YOUR CHILD FOR YOU.

I've tried bribery. I've tried rewards and punishments. I've tried negotiation. I've tried it all. I don't bother with the GD forum at all anymore because it's so completely useless for kids like mine. But, I certainly tried what was there and what wasn't there. I haven't beaten my kid into a pulp. And I haven't medicated him. But, I've certainly tried everything else. What seems to work best is lots of preparation beforehand and utilizing a method from The Explosive Child, but it doesn't work all the time. He's too impulsive to follow through on the plans we agree on. And sometimes his sensory seeking gets the best of him.

What exactly would you have tied to your 6 year old's waist that he couldn't get out of? My child can tie - and untie - knots. He's too big for any kind of harness I've ever seen, but even if I could find one that fit, he could get out of it. He's big and he's strong, so me trying to yank him around by a rope would be a tug-of-war that would go nowhere. The image is amusing. But, of course, the cops would be called, and I'd be hauled off to jail, and social services would take my kids. Why? Because dragging a child behind you with a big rope tied to their midsection could be considered abusive.

You're welcome to try to parent my child in front of me. He'll talk back to you, and do whatever he wants anyway. I haven't stopped parenting my kids - not at all- but I know to pick my battles, and I know that some situations are unavoidable. I remove or redirect my kids if they're hurting others or invading their space. I'm very much involved in their lives and interactions. My older son struggles with appropriate social interactions, so I try to assist him with that (in non-embarrassing ways, of course). I also let other adults correct his behaviors with their children (like, "Please don't tickle my baby. She's trying to sleep") because I think it's good for him to hear that from people other than me. But, I'll be right there to move him if he doesn't listen or can't match the words to his actions and stop what he's doing.

I find it amusing that, after all I've written, you still want to blame my parenting style or lack of parenting or something, rather than acknowledge that not all kids are the same or respond to the same things. I could be the best mother on earth, and still have a non-cooperative child. How does that happen? Well, nurture ain't all there is. Nature plays a mighty big part as well. And my kids are naturally challenging.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Ok, BlueStateMama and Mamarootoo, I can't take it anymore...WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY ZOMBIE PLAN?? what you would do if zombies attacked?


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I find it amusing that, after all I've written, you still want to blame my parenting style or lack of parenting or something, rather than acknowledge that not all kids are the same or respond to the same things. I could be the best mother on earth, and still have a non-cooperative child. How does that happen? Well, nurture ain't all there is. Nature plays a mighty big part as well. And my kids are naturally challenging.

Not blaming you, just saying don't give up. And that if someone's challenging child threatens mine or takes her toys, I will do something about it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
How old was your boy while he was in the toy aisle alone, StormBride? YOu keep bringing that up as an example, and I think that's EXTREMELY relevant.

You know...I'm not actually sure. I'll see if I can figure it out...we moved into that house when he was 3, but I know I didn't leave him there alone until after the first time I left him with his cousin, who moved into the house when ds1 was...4.5.

I'd guess he probably stayed in the toy aisle for the first time somewhere around 4.5 or 5. He stayed there on some visits (sometimes he wanted to stay with me while I shopped, which was when he'd occasionally bolt and/or play "shadow") until he was...maybe 8? Yeah - dh moved up here when ds1 was 8, and that was around the same time ds1 stopped hanging out in the toy aisle. He played "shadow" a lot more after that. He said it was more fun when there were two of us to try to sneak past.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
Ok, BlueStateMama and Mamarootoo, I can't take it anymore...WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY ZOMBIE PLAN?? what you would do if zombies attacked?











our plan involves turning our SUV into a tank-ish type vehicle and high-tailing it to my pseudo-mountain-man father who has enough ammunition/generators/random metal and wood pieces to keep us safe for several years









i watched 28 Days Later about three weeks after DD was born and couldn't sleep for days because i was so freaked out about it! so my super-sweet DH wrote out this whole 10 page plan on how we would keep our LO safe









it's a joke now, but i felt very strongly about it at the time.







hormones!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

There's a funny thread about "Z-Day" plans in TAO right now. Ours aren't formalized (Mamarootoo, I'm impressed!!







) I'll head down there and post so I don't derail this thread


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I've tried bribery. I've tried rewards and punishments. I've tried negotiation. I've tried it all. I don't bother with the GD forum at all anymore because it's so completely useless for kids like mine. But, I certainly tried what was there and what wasn't there. I haven't beaten my kid into a pulp. And I haven't medicated him. But, I've certainly tried everything else. What seems to work best is lots of preparation beforehand and utilizing a method from The Explosive Child, but it doesn't work all the time. He's too impulsive to follow through on the plans we agree on. And sometimes his sensory seeking gets the best of him.

What exactly would you have tied to your 6 year old's waist that he couldn't get out of? My child can tie - and untie - knots. He's too big for any kind of harness I've ever seen, but even if I could find one that fit, he could get out of it. He's big and he's strong, so me trying to yank him around by a rope would be a tug-of-war that would go nowhere. The image is amusing. But, of course, the cops would be called, and I'd be hauled off to jail, and social services would take my kids. Why? Because dragging a child behind you with a big rope tied to their midsection could be considered abusive.

You're welcome to try to parent my child in front of me. He'll talk back to you, and do whatever he wants anyway. I haven't stopped parenting my kids - not at all- but I know to pick my battles, and I know that some situations are unavoidable. I remove or redirect my kids if they're hurting others or invading their space. I'm very much involved in their lives and interactions. My older son struggles with appropriate social interactions, so I try to assist him with that (in non-embarrassing ways, of course). I also let other adults correct his behaviors with their children (like, "Please don't tickle my baby. She's trying to sleep") because I think it's good for him to hear that from people other than me. But, I'll be right there to move him if he doesn't listen or can't match the words to his actions and stop what he's doing.

I find it amusing that, after all I've written, you still want to blame my parenting style or lack of parenting or something, rather than acknowledge that not all kids are the same or respond to the same things. I could be the best mother on earth, and still have a non-cooperative child. How does that happen? Well, nurture ain't all there is. Nature plays a mighty big part as well. And my kids are naturally challenging.

Wouldn't the world be so much easier to just blame the mothers? I think our society is just so good about it that why not?

I mean, we struggle every day, we exhaust ourselves, continue and push through when we hurt and are sick, tired or scared. We find new ways, we try new solutions, we are there in the middle of the night to kiss our children when they cry. We have to negotiate safety and independance, discipline and freedom, love and guidelines. We have to find a way to love our children for who they are even if society rejects them and we have to try living in that world anyway. We look for support and find judgemental eyes, we ask questions and get no answers. We try to find a peaceful place to know what it is to mother and keep looking while becoming lost.

But, why not blame these people?


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
have you ever been to an airport? would you walk without even looking back through the crowd with a toddler (or maybe it wasnt a toddler and the child just LOOKED like they were 2 years old)

I guess I think different since I live in a place where child abduction has higher rates then some other places.

Actually, that is possible. My dd is three and TINY. She only weighs 20 lbs and is still in size 18 months clothing. People constantly think she is under two.

When we go to Walmart (yes that evil place that everyone here hates, but is close and convienient) Lilly likes to sit in the toy aisle and play with the toys. The magazine section is at the end of the aisle, so I go stand there and look through magazines while she plays. I can see her at all times, but I'm not really close. I've had people glare at me and make remarks about how unsafe it is to be so far away from a toddler. I've given up trying to explain that she really isn't a toddler, so now I just glare back and continue reading.

And yes I've also been at the mall at let her walk in front and behind me. I always keep an eye on her and she knows not to get too far away from me.

Now when she was really a toddler, she had a harness because she ran away like crazy and I couldn't keep up with her.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Not just other parents, other _mothers_.

This is really a cultural thing. 80, 50, and probably 25, years ago in the US, or in other parts of the world today, no one would blink at something like that. And don't try to argue "it was safer then"; it wasn't, people were just less *scared* (it wasn't hugely less safe, either, for that matter).

Can't we just accept that different people have different comfort zones, and that we don't know anyone else's full story, and just lay off the judgmental shaming please? There's a huge and important difference between "I wouldn't" and "how could she??"

So true.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
people got abducted then, and they do now. (however infrequently) maybe its where I live. maybe its because within the first year I lived here there was an amber alert flashing on one of our highway signs.

Within the first YEAR? Maybe it's because I've worked on an Amber Alert deployment, but if there's only one in a year flashing on your local highway sign, you live in a far safer area than most of the US.

But that's because of how Ambers are designed to be propagated. They are designed to go to the furthermost extents of where a kidnapped child might be, just in case. In my state, they're either going to be regional or state-wide. You'd think that "regional" would limit it--but in my region that means that you'll get a message flashing on a sign over 50-90 miles in ALL directions from our major urban center . . .

And at least during the time I worked on the deployment, about 90% of the ambers released were custodial. Custodial kidnappings tend to travel--it's wise to cover a wider area with them (in our area, a custodial kidnapping is almost always headed out of state either north or east). Stranger kidnappings don't tend to travel, anywhere near the distance of the region a regional broadcast covers.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I have Amber Alerts sent to my cell phone. Honestly it will drive home how rare stranger kidnapping is. At least for me it does.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

no within the first year I moved here, I SAW one, MYSELF IN PERSON! and I dont drive and almost NEVER leave the house.

I live in south florida.

pigpokey - if I got 1 amber alert sent to my phone all that would do is remind me that kidnappings do happen, even if its rare. Scary. I certaintly wouldnt do anything to INCREASE the risk of this happening. I am curious, putting aside the fact it is rare, how much more likely is a child to be kidnapped by a stranger while holding a parents hand, then when not in the parents line of sight for more then 10 minutes?


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
I have Amber Alerts sent to my cell phone. Honestly it will drive home how rare stranger kidnapping is. At least for me it does.

Right.

In the two years I paid attention to our state's Amber Alerts (and I live in an urban area of 7 million people, near city with pretty high crime levels) only 3 Ambers I recall were non-custodial. Two of them were whole families (parents+children) being "kidnapped" (aka, driven elsewhere in the area) and murdered. And one, in two years, was the pure example of "stranger kidnapping child."


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

^that is so scary to me cschick! maybe to some people its "reassuring" but to me its scary that it can still happen, and reminds me that its better to watch your children then turn your back! of course I am the kind of person who even though we have a security system and leave the hurricane shutters on the windows still check on my kids in the middle of the night.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtokea* 
You know, we like to go to bookstores a lot. When we enter the store my kids automatically go to the kids section. I have a few sections that I like to check out myself and I take a few minutes before I join my kids in the kid section. My biggest concern is not that they will be kidnapped, but that I will be judged as a bad mother. Seriously, I head to the kids section thinking that everyone is going to be wondering where the mother of those unsupervised kids is, not that my kids need me or are in trouble. Instinctively I feel that my kids are fine. It's the judgement that worries me more.
Sounds crazy, I know.









I find this too. In the one toystore we go to there are only 5 aisles, with a big train set in the middle. I could hear my dd play with the trains as I looked through the aisles, if I wasn't too concious of what people would say. It would be much more fun for both of us if she could just play.

I remember being left in the toy aisle at Eatons as a kid while my mom looked at stuff, or being left in the car for short periods. My sister used to wave at people, which embarrased me.

My grandpa used to leave my dad and his brothers in the car while he went into the pup for an hour, and he also remembers playing by the harbour as a 4 year old.







Our social expectations have really changed, but I'm not sure it's all been for the good.


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## junipermoon (Nov 19, 2008)

random thoughts:

i remember being in india with my kids and where we were living, we often saw children who looked to be well under 7 supervising several younger children along busy roads.

i remember when my oldest child first joined the family, at 5, he took off in a grocery store for 45 minutes. i chased him unsuccessfully. i had his lil brother with me, a baby in arms. i remember him stamping and scraping his foot on the floor like a bull ready to charge, and then charging past me. i remember how the woman who i enlisted to hold my baby while i caught my older child looked at me. i remember the 5 year old throwing his sneaker for the 3rd time that night far into the parking lot and i remember abandoning the shoe. i ran over the one bag of groceries we bought with the car b/c i forgot to put it in the hatch after sitting it down. i was too distraught. i also remember my body odor that night cause i was running and stressing so much. i could smell myself.

i dunno how i feel about this thread. a lot of the time when bad things happen to kids, the parent is watching, but the accident happens too fast...kidnapping is rare...i still don't leave even my older kids alone in stores, though, and they are 8 and 12 now. makes me feel that i have control, even though, you know, we never really do have executive control of others, even our kids, even if they are on harnesses, which, i am not too sure i agree with, all things considered.

people's lives vary considerably, person to person, family to family. finding a bottom line is tricky. i want to say "don't judge," yet, i still manage to find myself judging, all. the. time. so, don't judge, and, don't judge people who judge, i guess, either...


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