# I can't stand it anymore



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know how to fix this. My kids are totally ungrateful, and always want more more more. They never help clean without a huge fight. The attitude is making me crazy.

When I pick ds1 up from his day camp (that he begs to go to), the first thing he wants is to go to a cafe. When I say no, he starts in with the attitude. The day he spent at camp, me driving him and picking him up, all of it is lost on him. All he wants is more.

He wants to read books. Fine, I just sat down with my lunch, just let me finish and then we can sit and read all the books you want. Not 3 minutes later, he and his brother are fighting, and ds1 smacks him. Now they're both screaming and crying. I get them separated, and ds1 goes into my bedroom and tears apart my covers wanting to roll around in them (as opposed to on his bed). He knows he's not supposed to tear my covers around. While I'm making the bed, I ask him to put back the big stack of books he brought into our bedroom. He cops and attitude, takes the books, and stomps into the living room. I come out to sit down to read, and all the books are strewn all over the floor.

He is rolling around on the living room floor, with messes strewn all over the place. I talk about having to clean up before moving on, and he just starts whining and complaining or yelling and stomping around.

Ds2 is no help either. He'll throw things on the floor, and just walk away. I ask him to help me clean up, and he either ignores me or says no and walks away.

This has been going on for as long as I can remember, and besides resorting to punishment, I just don't know what else to do. The whole "I expect you to help out/pick up/be responsible" while I do it does not work with them. They just see that as a free pass.

I dread doing the most basic of errands, because it is gimme gimme gimme every second that we are in the store. It doesn't matter if I talk to them about it beforehand or not. I can't tell you how many times I am out of groceries because I just can't stand going into the store with them. They don't throw tantrums, they just don't stop with the gimmes.

I'm done being the maid around here. There have to be some consequences to their behavior, and I'm starting to not care if they are natural or not.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Well, I am all for consequences so I say bring on the consequences. Everyone parent's differently. Some group of people on MDC are not parenting your kids, YOU are, so do what works for you.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I'm somewhat stricter than some of the moms on here, so please take my $.02 for what it's worth:

Mama, at 7yo there should be no you picking anything up for him! Your requirement is to calmly repeat the standards and reinforce them - not give in because of whining or he's not doing it yet, or whatnot. "We'll do X when Y is put away." Take care of yourself, take care of the needs, but as for the wants........well, they learn pretty quick that they can go out to play AFTER they do their chores. No work, no play. Don't talk about doing it - calmly state the standard in as few words as possible. Whining? Say it again.

And I'm all for consequences when we're out! With a 3yo and a 6yo we went without several grocery staples for nearly a week. Why? Because the rules are stated before we go into the store, along with what happens when the rules are broken. If the rules are broken, there's one reminder. After that, we hand the cart apologetically to a clerk and leave. You want to see a grumpy 3yo? Tell him he's down to eating Cream Of Wheat in the morning because even the oatmeal needs to be bought. We went every day, for several days in a row before they got it. I've never had a problem since.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know what to do with ds2. So far I've confiscated Hungry Hippos (he refused to pick up the marbles) - it's his favorite game, and his favorite cash register because he would pick it up off the living room floor. Then I threw out the slingshot he made with the special piece of wood he found after I asked him several times to pick it up off the floor.

I am done. I can't stand it anymore. I warned them that I'm not even going to ask. If I walk into the living room, and there are toys on the floor and no kids, the toys are going to be taken away.

Neither of them seems to give a damn about losing their favorite toys, so I guess there's no reason for me to feel guilty.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

I'm here too. That plus the backtalking/yelling/screaming at me. I'm just so sad and feel like I've done it all wrong.


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

i totally know how you fell. i am not sure i am doing it right or even if it is effective. after3 weeks of asking ploitley and insisting they clean their room is still wasnt done. so i said, "if you cant take care of your toys then you cant have them". i took all of the ones that werent picked up and put them in the closet. was that right? i dont know. then the 5 yr old said "i dont care they are just toys". then she stood on the very top of the sit and spin which i told her would break it (and it belongs to her sister) and she said "i dont care its just a toy". where am i going wrong? so now they only have 3 toys to play with and keep trying to play with the babys toys. i tell them they are not allowed to play with the babys toys because they cant take care of their own. why should they be able to play with her toys when i just took all of their toys away. so they say "what are we supposed to play with?" DUH! take care of your own toys and you can play with them! am i being mean? i dont know. they dont respect their things. they dont seem to respewct anything and i am so tired of it.
just wanted to let you know i feel for you and am fighting the same thing. any one have any advice?


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## 5in9years (Nov 18, 2005)

I can't help you with the picking up part-mine haven't mastered that yet. But begging for stuff isn't a huge problem for the kids. First, for little purchases like candy and small toys, the kids earn spending money by doing chores in the house. Chores aren't optional, they just get paid to do them. So when they ask for candy, i ask "do you have any money?" At about 3yo or so we usually have a round of whining and begging, but then they figure it out and it's generally not a problem.

I don't do the guilt trip thing, but I do let them know that I'm happy to go out of my way for their things-taking them to practice, to the skating rink, to games, travelling to tournaments, going on vacation. . . I do those things b/c it makes me happy to make my kids happy, but they know that all of them are a choice I make rather than something they're owed.

If they ask for something I can't or choose not to give, I don't get upset that they ask. I say "No" and give them the reason, once. Further whining, begging, pouting isn't accepted. They are welcome to do it somewhere the rest of us don't have to deal with it, and if the older kids continue it for long, they may begin to lose priveleges. (the only real problem with this is the 13yo, but she's been raised differently, so it's a work in progress).

When my kids are disappointed, i sympathize with them and then try to help them move on. Some kids are more likely than others (by temperament) to get bogged down in a small disappointment, letting it ruin their entire day. I think part of my job is to help them find perspective-and honestly, I think that doing so helps prevent depression. Being able to take things in stride is an important life skill.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

oceanbaby said:


> I don't know what to do with ds2. So far I've confiscated Hungry Hippos (he refused to pick up the marbles) - it's his favorite game, and his favorite cash register because he would pick it up off the living room floor. Then I threw out the slingshot he made with the special piece of wood he found after I asked him several times to pick it up off the floor.QUOTE]
> 
> First let me say my 4 1/2 year old is starting to have this problem and we are working on it. Limiting the amount of toys to a few and ones that are not daily I-don't-wanna-pick-it-up offenders has helped. So basically anything with lots of pieces are put away for now.
> 
> ...


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## milehighmonkeys (Apr 13, 2006)

Sometimes you have to try things until you find what works. Around here, time outs aren't especially effective, so we've had to try different strategies.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Well, I am all for consequences so I say bring on the consequences. Everyone parent's differently. Some group of people on MDC are not parenting your kids, YOU are, so do what works for you.

best advice.ever.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I took the wood slingshot out of the garbage, for exactly the reason the pp noted above. Why would I value a hunk of plastic garbage like Hungry Hungry Hippos above the little y-shaped branch that he found and wrapped a rubber band around.

I'm not sure what to do with the toys once they've been taken. Are they gone forever? Do they have to ask for them? Are they just gone for the day?

I hate this arbitrary, control trip, punishment path, but I am just at my end and don't know what else to do. My kids are more than happy to just have mom pick everything up. At no point has one of them given any indication that they've though "Hmm, mom is modeling this responsible behavior of picking up toys, so I guess that's something I should be doing."


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## milehighmonkeys (Apr 13, 2006)

For DD, it's not toys, it's books. She gets quiet time every afternoon and she usually reads during this time. She also reads at bedtime. What we do is take the books for the "next book period". So if the offense is in the morning, she loses books for quiet time for that day only. If it's in the afternoon after quiet time, she loses her books for bedtime for that day only. Honestly, I've only ever had to do it once. Now when she gets the warning that she's doing something that may result in losing her books, she quickly stops. They know when you mean business, but if it's something they don't care about, it's not effective.


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

We've been having some success since putting even more things away. Each type of toy is in a bin down in the basement. They have three bins in their playroom. One is always there, with miscellaneous stuff that they always like to play with (cameras, stethoscopes, balls). They also have a really small bin with people. Those are also out always. For the other two bins, they can choose any two types of toys to fill those bins. They also get their choice of train set out or the Plan roadway. I think mine were overwhelmed for the longest time. I kept cutting back but not enough. It feels now like we're finally at a good amount of toys to find the balance between having fun playing and not so much that they can't clean up in a short amount of time.

I also started helping them. I would say "Alright guys, let's clean up." and I would sit down and start working. I had my share of days where I did everything, but they also help when I ask them to do something specific. Then I thank them for it. Sometimes also I'd ask them to bring all the toys in the playroom with the understanding that I'd put them away. Someone posted once about how our priorities may be different. I value a house that's neat and clutter free and they don't place such a high priority on it. It doesn't make my way right, it's just what it is. If I want it clean, I do it.

For the always wanting more, we've had some of that in the last several months. I was getting really mad that they were ungrateful. Then I stopped giving power to it. I just tried talking about the positives. Also I answer them about whatever else they want, but then no more. I don't keep offering the same information or arguing with them.


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## lilliansmom (Nov 2, 2006)

My DD is almost three so she is a bit younger. When she turned 1 I had her help me put her bath toys away after her bath. From 18 months on she put her cloths in the hamper and even picks up her Dad's cloths and puts them in the hamper to (can't get my DH to clean up). We have clean up time several times a day. I normally tell her we can do x after we clean up our toys. I try and give her a choice, Would you like to help put away the Lego's or the blocks, she does great most days. She is still little so I help her and try and make it fun and focus on making her feel good about contributing. I break big jobs up into more manageable jobs so that she is not overwhelmed by the mess. She even helps set the dinner table and clears her place after we are finished. Toddlers love to help and feel like they can contribute something toward the family. I would like to work on taking one toy out at a time but I think she needs to be a bit older for that.


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## want2bmoms (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I don't know how to fix this. My kids are totally ungrateful, and always want more more more. They never help clean without a huge fight. The attitude is making me crazy.

This has been going on for as long as I can remember, and besides resorting to punishment, I just don't know what else to do.
I'm done being the maid around here. There have to be some consequences to their behavior, and I'm starting to not care if they are natural or not.


Quote:

When I pick ds1 up from his day camp (that he begs to go to), the first thing he wants is to go to a cafe. When I say no, he starts in with the attitude. The day he spent at camp, me driving him and picking him up, all of it is lost on him. All he wants is more.
um, what is he eating at this day camp? it sounds like he may have gotten a little too much sugar, or of another item he has trouble with. Also, it sounds like he is both over stimulated, and over tired.
Talk to the leaders and set limits on what he may have, he had to have healthy food there too, at least as good as you feed him at home.

As har as presenting meltdowns, maybe you could take them all out to the park, or even just to run outside, to let off steam.
also, "if you cannot be nice after camp, you don't get to go next time." Then follow up. If you know he's going to make you miserable after, then it's perfectly reasonable that he doesn't get to go.

Quote:

He is rolling around on the living room floor, with messes strewn all over the place. I talk about having to clean up before moving on, and he just starts whining and complaining or yelling and stomping around.
If he doesn't get up and help, he cannot have the stuff for x amount of time. if it's been ruined because he didn't take care of it, it's trash, we don't keep ruined things. Especially toys, because if a little peice is picked up by his brother, he could choke, so it's not safe.

Anything with numerous/small peices, needs to be up where he can't get to them, again, little brother, little peices, big choking hazzard (as my DP, who still tells me about the barbie burger she stuck up her nose when she was five and then a gi joe peice in her ear... ( her logic, because I HAD to ask, was, "I wonder if that would fit... I bet I could get it in there" apparently the gi joe peice fell out of her nose first







also, the burger flew out when she sneezed - at the dinner table...it must not have hurt because that was first. GI Joe required a trip to the doctor, when mom couldn't get it out.) ... I also remember being told about a preschooler who broke off the tip of a crayon into their mouth, where they were holding it, had someone come up behind and scare them, inhaled, and had to be taken to the emergency room because he kept coughting and couldn't breath right - it went into his lung and started to melt









-The way my dad did it, is:
*one toy/set out at a time,
*if you have left a toy out, and are playing with something else, I will tell you ONCE, that you forgot it,
*if it's still there in five minutes, I will assume you don't want it,
*and I will put it away for x amount of time (one week, x days, until ___day).

They may test you, but put things away, and when they are upset that they don't have such and such, tell them why and when it will be coming back.

Also (an idea I like better, or at least in conjunction), my aunt,
-broke my cousin's toys into two or three sets, "monthA", "monthB", "monthC",
-they got put into tubs, and
-every month, any missed broken toys went to the trash(normally, they went as soon as broken - and they didn't get replaced),
-the current toys would go in the bucket, and into the basement (or garage), where she would return with the next bucket.
***After a big gift occasion***,
-all three totes would come out, and
-for each gift recieved, one had to go to charity - they could pick any toy they wanted to send to charity, new or old, but there was nothing broken to give, and
-they picked the toys they had.

Also, she encouraged them to spread the new things out, so that they had some new things each month, rather than keeping all their new stuff out now, and then only having old stuff for two months.

As far as the whining and complaining, tell him that you hear that he does not want to do X, but he chose to make the mess, and he can either pick it up, or you will, and if you pick it up, he won't get to play with it for a while.

Quote:

Ds2 is no help either. He'll throw things on the floor, and just walk away. I ask him to help me clean up, and he either ignores me or says no and walks away.
He's learning from his big brother, and you need to nip in the bud now. If he throws things on the floor, and says no to picking them up, "then you don't want them and I am taking them." if he ignores you, kneel down on his level, and tell him again, so that you know he hears you. Praise the heck out of him if he listens, if not... "I asked you to X, because you won't take care of them, I think you don't want them so I am taking them."

Quote:

I dread doing the most basic of errands, because it is gimme gimme gimme every second that we are in the store. It doesn't matter if I talk to them about it beforehand or not. I can't tell you how many times I am out of groceries because I just can't stand going into the store with them. They don't throw tantrums, they just don't stop with the gimmes.
as far as the gimme's,
-"this is what we are buying, nothing else. Would you like to help me check things off the list or would you like to hold the handle/sit in the buggy( if the buggy's in your local market have the kids cars/etc for them)?"
-let them "help" should we have grapes or apples (even if you need apples, you could say, I need apples because I am making a ____ this week, for snack do you want to get extra apples or some grapes?) do you want to pick out the ______? Which ______ should we get? ....etc... keep them involved and making descisions, thinking about what you need, instead of what has scooby-doo on it.
-if they let go of the handle, they ride in the cart (seven is not too old to ride, I've done it!)
--if they can't handle that, maybe you could hire a sitter for an hour or two, while you are out - our local gym is $3/day(max of two hours) so your ould even go at that rate, with all the free string cheese, they want









Quote:

I ask him to put back the big stack of books he brought into our bedroom. He cops and attitude, takes the books, and stomps into the living room. I come out to sit down to read, and all the books are strewn all over the floor.
If he isn't respecting his books, I am a firm believer in not letting him have free reign over them. I would (not the popular choice, but again, I spent a lot of money on books --including lucky chance finds of autographed copies, of rarer *our family inclusive* kids books-- and expect a lot of kiddos to get to enjoy them)
-put them up where he has to ask for them,
-he gets them one-at-a-time and
-has to sit near you, and
--if he tries to leave with the books, he loses them, and
-if he leaves them, just quietly put them away.

Quote:

He wants to read books. Fine, I just sat down with my lunch, just let me finish and then we can sit and read all the books you want. Not 3 minutes later, he and his brother are fighting, and ds1 smacks him [*I am asuming you mean little brother*]. Now they're both screaming and crying. I get them separated, and ds1 goes into my bedroom and tears apart my covers wanting to roll around in them (as opposed to on his bed). He knows he's not supposed to tear my covers around.
As far as messing up your bed (I understand, I love my bed/room too, I spent a lot of money on it, which I NEVER do for myself, and I work to keep it nice) It is your personal space,
-he can not go on it. Even to read. (We have a lock on our door so that foster kiddos have another barrier between them and the (again locked) bathroom, where we keep the (LOCKED) medicine closet...), but it looks like you guys might co-room... then he can't go in there without you until he can be trusted to say off your bed, and respect your area.
*instead, he can build a fort under the dining room table (but he has to help fold/clean it.), *
go to his own room,
*sit on the porch,
*hide behind the couch,
*hide in the closet,
*sit on top of the washer/drier (I like the sensory input, it's calming)...

Quote:

The whole "I expect you to help out/pick up/be responsible" while I do it does not work with them. They just see that as a free pass.
Um, then, tell them that if they do not help, they will lose the items you pick up before they decide to join you, and they will not come back for x time. Sure, it's a free pass, they don't have to pick anything up, but you don't have to pick it up more than once by yourself... But after the first time or two, they will most likely run out of things to make a mess with, or start helping pretty quickly.
I think it's pretty important to not have so many toys they get overwhelmed, I know we used to have a ton of [email protected], and helping cleaning up after three younger sisters made ME feel overwhelmed, I just wanted to have it all thrown away, and I didn't care about any of it. I do think that as an adult, it has helped me be less *want-y*, but that didn't help our house look any better growing up... (in fact, my mom's husband once threatened to throw everything in the living room away, I picked up my school stuff and went to my room







unfortunately, he didn't follow through







:.) Now, we go through our house several times a year, and donate/trash/freecycle stuff that hasn't been used since the last run-through.

sorry for the super lost post, hope something I've said helps.

*@*@*@*try to catch them doing good stuff, if they are playing together, playing alone, being quiet, anything *not* bad (even if it's not necessarily *good*), tell them you appreciate it. If the only time they are getting a load of attention, is by not listening, they will go for the attention...*@*@*@*


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

oceanbaby - I could have written your post. Ironically it seems our kids are about the same age (tho I have girls). ITs driving me nuts now that everyone is home all day, every day.

I just got the Concious Discipline DVDs and need to sit down and watch them because I am at the end of my rope with this







Add the daily drama to 2 girls that refuse any reasonable bedtime and it makes for a very unhappy mama.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

If *I* had to constantly pick someone else's things up, I would look for ways to decrease my workload. Perhaps I would put some toys away (not in the trash, but just away) so I didn't have so much to put away. Or maybe I would have to put play time or making dinner on hold until I got the house picked up. At 7 and 3.5 year old, I would think that they could make the connection that time spent picking up toys means mama is too tired to read or play with them.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

I didn't read all the responses but here is a suggestion for the messy toys&#8230;.

Do you have an area that can stay messy and wouldn't bother you? I don't know if you have a room or a corner of a room you can block off and that can be the messy kid area. An area where they don't have to pick their toys up but they can clean up if they wish. Or maybe have a once a month rule, on the 1st of every month, we are going to clean this area up. Don't hound on them any other day.

The only reason I say this is because I was the kid that was messy. I refused to clean up my room when I was little. I hated my mom coming in and telling me what to do with it. It was such an issue for me. My mom would do the whole "you can go out and play when you clean your room" and I would sit in my room for weeks and refuse to clean up. My mom jokes about it now how stubborn I was and told me the other day that I sat in my room for almost 45 days once before she gave in. I always won but at what cost? My mother and I have major control issues now that will last a lifetime. (It isn't only the cleaning that lead to this but it was a major part).

My point is that some kids just need a space that can be theirs. Maybe your son is like me?

BTW the funny thing about the whole messy area is now that I am an adult, I clean up on my own because it feels good to be in a clean room. I do still create mess and might leave it for a week but I always clean up because I want to.

Hope this makes sense. Just trying to explain it from the other side.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

are you the only parent at home? If not,how do they respond to your partner? Is your partner respectful to you?

I'm just wondering what else might be aggravating this (could be nothing).


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Well, I am all for consequences so I say bring on the consequences. Everyone parent's differently. Some group of people on MDC are not parenting your kids, YOU are, so do what works for you.

i agree.


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## scoobers (Jun 24, 2005)

We've been in the same boat for quite a while. DS (5) makes huge messes and refuses to clean up. Gives his teachers at preschool a hard time during clean up as well. It's been really exhausting. We've tried putting away the toys he won't put away out of reach (garage) but he just doesn't seem to care. At first he's upset but then he just plays with whatever else is around or reads his books. We got to the point where almost all of his toys were in the garage and he would still refuse to clean up what was out even though he knew the consequence was it would go into the garage. I really hate battling with him over this constantly.
So, I'm trying a different tactic and so far it seems to be working. I bought a bunch of star stickers with motivational words on them (wow, terrific, awesome, etc.) and printed out a free chart from the net. We let him pick out a toy at the toy store that he really wanted (a Speed Racer car), we put it up high on a bookshelf where he can see it but not reach it and told him that every day that he does a good job cleaning his playroom, without whining or giving us a hard time he gets to put a star on his chart and when all the stars on the chart have a sticker he gets the car. The difference is amazing. The other thing that works with him is to make it a race. (He LOVES racing.) So, I tell him I bet that he can't clean his playroom as fast as Mommy can clean the kitchen. I add in that I'm a jet plane and he's a snail and that gets him going. I let him win the race but I win too because he picks up his room!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Oceanbaby. Some good questions have been asked, that I was wondering too! Especially, what does he eat at camp? And I was wondering about your DH's attitude too, because it seems like at least part of what is stressing you is your 7 yo's attitude toward you. I'm wondering if that might have been learned somewhere? Another possibilty is that maybe you are reading too much malice/disrespect into your son's behavior -- but I've been reading your posts for his whole life and I kind of doubt that.

Is it validating to hear that I think your older son is especially challenging when compared to the average kid? My recurring thoughts about the situation are that you have got a *handful* of child there, and that it would stress anybody out. Its normal and okay for you to feel frustrated, stretched, exhausted, angry, etc.. Its entirely possible that you have done everything "right" and that he is just 150% intense.

I don't think punative measures are necessary, but I do think that if you decide your kids need logical consequences and extra structure -- that would be okay and maybe even appropriate for their temperments. I think the shift would require a lot of consideration and planning though.

I like the suggestion of giving and allowance and having the kids use their own pocket money for *any* treats and extras when you are out. Given your children's temperment, I would make it a rule NEVER to buy them extras. At least for awhile until you have defeated the gimmees.

I wonder if a higher degree of structure/routine would help your kids across the board. It seems like if you give in ONCE, that becomes their expectation, kwim? Maybe they just don't do flexible very well yet. For some kids, having very predictable patterns in their life provides a measure of security. I would absolutely venture the guess that your older son falls on the "needs more structure" ends of the spectrum.

Meltdowns after camp are to some degree normal. Not an excuse for him to be destructive, but the melt downs are normal. He has tension to release. I wonder if it would help to bring a snack and a drink to him to have in the car on the way home, and then to plan to pop in a DVD for an hour after camp and let him crash out. Or, better yet -- I used to put my higher needs kid directly into the bathtub after school all through first and second grade, and he would stay in the water for about an hour! I think it was a sensory need, actually -- and your son's feeling the need to roll around in covers makes me wonder if he has strong sensory needs too. Maybe a relaxing activity after camp that meets a sensory need would help him to regroup.

With cleaning up, it seems like they still need help. So I would probably approach it from a "Let's do this together" standpoint. But I understand that it is going to be a challenge to get them to participate. I would probably not take things away, but I would not be providing alternate activities etc. until everyone pitched in and got the job done. Eg. "We'll go to the park when the toys are picked up." I would probably even go as far as to pull the older son aside and tell him that his ride to camp the next day would be delayed until the toys were picked up. I would think long and hard about how to present it. Life has a flow to it though, and I think it is okay to demonstrate how that flow can be interupted when we don't take responsibility for things that need to be done.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

About the camp - I don't think that's a factor at all. It's just for a few hours, they have one "healthy" snack (like goldfish crackers and apples kind of thing). This isn't atypical behavior for him. Ds1 just runs very hot and cold, and can be explosive. (I can't imagine where he gets this kind of behavior.







)

The problem is that talking with him doesn't seem to get us anywhere. He's never been really good at expressing complex emotions, and if I say something like "I don't want to yell. I would like to be able to ask you once to pick up/get dressed/whatever and have it happen. What can we do to make this situation work better for all of us?" he'll get all dramatic and say something like "just kill me." Not in a sad way, but in a sarcastic, teenager kind of way.

Schedules: Yeah, I think this is a big one for us. Dh and I have talked about this numerous times. We are not scheduled kind of people. I don't have a housecleaning schedule - I kind of just whirl around when needed and get it cleaned. We do the daily stuff - dishes, beds, laundry. But again, not on a schedule. We don't do anything on a schedule. We never know if we'll be home for dinner, or what any particular day will bring, and it works for us, so it's hard to try to come up with a schedule. But I do think that ds1 in particular might do better with one. The problem is that dh and I have no idea how to implement this.

Now, ds2 is another tough cookie. He is very different than ds1. He doesn't get emotional or explosive - he just completely ignores you. While you're talking to him, he just gives you this blank look. The best way I can describe it is a 14 year old saying "I am not listening to a word you're saying, and there's nothing you can make me do."

Oh, and dh is completely respectful in the way he talks to me. He is a complete equal partner (if not more so!) in housekeeping and other domestic duties. So I don't think this has anything at all to do with that.

And Mamaduck - yes, it does make me feel better to hear that ds1 might be particularly difficult. I've always read references to spirited children, but it didn't really seem to apply to him because he can be so reasonable and cooperative in so many ways. For instance, he never really threw tantrums as a toddler, or even now. He just doesn't stop! He will just keep on you and keep on you and keep on you until you blow your top. And then he gets all indignant that you yelled at him, and starts yelling and stomping around the house, doing things to push your buttons.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Seriously oceanbaby, we must have long lost twins or something LOL. Tho my dd2 doesn't ignore you, she just looks at you and says no and sits down LOL Stubborn.

I have always considered dd1 to be spirited but sometimes I wonder. She is perfectly well behaved at school, and often is super helpful and considerate at school. Then she comes home and its like a completely different person LOL


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
He just doesn't stop! He will just keep on you and keep on you and keep on you until you blow your top. And then he gets all indignant that you yelled at him, and starts yelling and stomping around the house, doing things to push your buttons.

omG is this my ds to a T! he's very, very spirited, always has been. he had severe colic as a baby, and then i (ROFL new mama moment) wanted him tested for ADHD at *nine months old*







...and....turns out he *does* have it. ADHD. i knew, i just did.

so anyway. this kid does not, i mean NOT have any idea that he isn't equal to everybody, and apologies to the consensual people here but we do NOT do it that way in my home, and i firmly believe kids have parents for a reason and my life experience puts me in a position of authority, just by virtue of the fact that i have it. so there
















so. three words. Love and Logic. i think Conscious Discipline might be very similar from what i've heard of it. but L&L is the only, ONLY thing, that when i do it right, works. some of the mamas here have posted just what i would do, and it takes a while, sometimes a long while, but it's worth it. my ds knows that "you keep what you pick up, and i keep what i pick up"-- sometimes that means for a little while, sometimes it means the trash, but he mostly thinks it's trash and he knows i mean what i say.
he's also a little consumer-- where he gets it, i don't know. we don't have cable, we don't watch anything with commercials, we home schooled till this year and now he's in an alternative sort of school and we live in a very crunchy area where most of our friends live the same sort of way. sometimes i put up with the BS in the store, sometimes i don't, but i almost always walk away with what i came for, and i never cave to his cr*p. although there have been times when i feel especially generous, and get him lots of things (usually food treats and sometimes a toy), and i've noticed it's THOSE days he's worst of all, like i didn't just put 5 things in the cart just for him!!! when that happens i point out that i just put 5 things in there and if that's not enough i can put them all back. when i start with the first item back on the shelf, he stops immediately








but he's 7.5 almost now, and that was NOT how it was when he was younger.

he doesn't like doing chores either, but now he's in a rut because he threw a rock into the road and broke someone's windshield, and now he owes me $225 and is paying it off in chores which is like 5 hours a week all summer long







and when that's done, i'm working on how to keep it going so that he doesn't lose the chore momentum









anyway. oh. for the 3.5yo, don't put his things *away*, but put them on a high shelf where he can *see* that it's put up. depends on the personality of the 7yo, but might be good for him to see the toys too. or books. that they are away. and they can earn them back, if you didn't throw them out. you have to find out what their currency is, and work with that. also at least for my kid "clean room" is too vague. he gets confused. "put red truck on bottom shelf" is better. maybe that's helpful for you. i also bought lots of bins from Target and we now have a bin for dinosaurs, a bin for spy stuff, a bin for musical instruments, a bin for books, a bin for miscellaneous...you get the picture. all he has to do is throw things in a bin. believe it or not, now that's gotten too hard for him







: but i tell him that we can always get rid of stuff, and he hates that more than cleaning, so it works most of the time.

anyway i've been rambling and rambling...hope i've been somewhat helpful!

pamela


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I would also suggest putting things away, but in a different spirit. What would happen if you sat down with him and said, "Look, we are fighting a lot about putting toys away and it's making us all miserable. How about you pick out X number of toys to have out and we store the rest for now?"

I was having a very similar conflict with DD about putting her crayons and markers away. We were fighting about it EVERY day. I finally told her to choose 10 crayons and 10 markers to have out. Believe it or not, she actually enjoyed choosing them and has not complained at all. I think kids today HAVE so much, you know? It's overwhelming to own so many items. DD had (has, but they're put away) like 100 crayons and markers. Putting away 100 things, even 100 little things, is not easy.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

so. three words. Love and Logic. i think Conscious Discipline might be very similar from what i've heard of it. but L&L is the only, ONLY thing, that when i do it right, works.
I am not sure how similar they are. i haven't gotten through the conscious discipline DVDs yet, but I did take a love and logic course at DDs preschool and just didn't love it at all.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

oh, well, that's a bummer. it does sound contrived to me too, but i swear by it because it puts the responsibility back on the child for the behavior. and it works. to stop behaviors that are undesirable and start ones that put the child on the road to responsibility. curious, what about it did you not like?

lemme know if CD sounds any like L&L when you listen to the cd's! i'd be interested to know! a local acquaintance has a sister that is a practitioner of CD. if that's the right word. teacher? she does workshops. anyway on a local list this mama frequently promotes her sister and i haven't been able to make it to a workshop yet. but it does sound similar.

pamela


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## sunflowerkelli (Sep 18, 2007)

I fixed a lot of the messy toys problem by just getting rid of ALL OF THEM.

We have: books, a few balls, a few cars/trucks, a few dolls, a few blocks.

That's it. We make toys out of anything else- sheets, couch cushions, etc.


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## forrestguy (Mar 6, 2008)

Maybe I'm repeating, I haven't read the other posts.
Asking them politely for three weeks to clean their room and then freaking out and getting mad when they don't do it is not really fair. They are not going to clean up their room until you make them. Give them an hour, maybe. Not three weeks. I tell them that they need to have their room clean by this time or else...fill in the blank. No computer time, no playing with friends, no dessert. If they whine, just repeat to them that they have X amount of time and then this is going to happen. They'll probably test you the first few times and then they'll stop. Mine have gotten used to cleaning now because I just don't take no for an answer, and at first they complained and now they don't. They just do it.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Schedules: Yeah, I think this is a big one for us. Dh and I have talked about this numerous times. We are not scheduled kind of people. I don't have a housecleaning schedule - I kind of just whirl around when needed and get it cleaned. We do the daily stuff - dishes, beds, laundry. But again, not on a schedule. We don't do anything on a schedule. We never know if we'll be home for dinner, or what any particular day will bring, and it works for us, so it's hard to try to come up with a schedule. But I do think that ds1 in particular might do better with one. The problem is that dh and I have no idea how to implement this.
Oh gosh. I can totally imagine my older child coming unglued without a predictable routine. My son who needs to know "the plan" at all times, at least 24 hours in advance. I firmly believe that 80% or discipline problems can be eliminated by carefully crafted routines.

I think in your shoes I would start small. Don't try to implement a total "schedule" and expect yourself to stick to it. Maybe pick one part of your day that is particularly rough and create a routine for that time of day that you think you can stick to (mostly) for a few weeks. See if that makes a difference. Bedtime, or right after school, or whatever.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

storage bins. Make sure the lids snap tight so you have to open them. Divide the toys into the bins. I have about 5. Make sure the bins are about the size of the mess you can handle.

Keep one bin of toys available to the kids and some of your books. Put the rest of your bins and books away where they can't get them. Every two weeks or so(mark the calendar) and rotate them...put the books away, grab a dozen different ones, get another bin.

When it's time to clean up make it a collaborative effort. Also...help them...sometimes it is just too overwhelming. Also give them exact instructions"you clean up the books, I'll grab the dolls, you pick up the blocks" or maybe give choices.."should I clean up the dolls while you put the books in their shelf``

Also...watch how you do your work. Do you complain about your work. Do you act miserable when you have to tidy or clean something.(sorry my punctuation isn`t working`)

Why would you want to do something that looks like it`s no fun at all.

I am very mindful about the attitude about work that I project. I say things like...better get this done so we can do this(insert fun thing here) and then sing a song or just act cheerful.

Of course no one is perfect and I do lose it once in a while but I usually explain that when I`m tired sometimes I get frustrated with doing work etc.

I get pretty good cooperation.

And I don`t do consequences or punishment. My older ones had more of that and they were way less cooperative though they are so much better now at 18 and 14. The little ones are already way better than they were.

Hope you find things that work.


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

Ugh - I too struggle with the negative consequences thing. My dd is also somewhat 'spirited', though differently than your ds, Oceanbaby. You sound like you *could* use some scheduling - like a preschool classroom has a schedule. Free play from 9-10:30, circle time at 10:30, snack at 11. Give yourself some rough around the edges scheduled time slots, so that they get used to when things happen. Dinner should be around the same time every day, no matter where it is. Lunch, too. B'fast too. If they want a regular story time w/you, it can't be during lunch. Feed them, then they play for 20 min. while you eat. THEN you read together.

For me, the hard part is: tell them once. After the once, I try REALLY hard to just not in acknowledgment of their *ahem* issue, and ignore the rest. IT's not easy, I'm the first to admit, and I don't _always_ get there. One word for moi - ovulation. Anyway, My rule is remind them once about rules, and that's it as far as paying lots of attention to their issues goes. Let the meltdowns begin! Ds (3.5) is famous for feeling misunderstood (and is more of a drama king than his sister was a drama queen!), cry scream howl, oh. You DID understand? And the answer was not right now? Oh. Well THAT sucks. cry scream howl. But he generally moves off and finds something to do after a few minutes. He's not interested in hurting himself, emotionally or physically. For a kid who has thicker skin, you would have to modify that!

As far as toys go - I have tossed my fair share lol! I also give them away at frequent intervals. Somehow we end up with a load of semi-crappy toys and games despite my best intentions. Birthdays, winter holidays, etc. all adds up, I tell ya! So periodically I do a clean out at NIGHT when they are ASLEEP. It's very rare that I take out anything precious to them. In fact it's never happened here.

Famous last words - "If I pick it up, I get to keep it." (preceded by "if you pick it up, then you get to keep it."

Follow through is easy once you realize that even your $$ toys will go to children who really REALLY will appreciate their stuff! I have donated (both high and middle quality stuff) to Ronald McDonald houses/rooms (in hospitals), a local homeless women's shelter, inner city churches (they all have child care), neighbors (many of my neighbors - and we! - are not wealthy, despite the nice suburban facade), and I frequently do drop offs at salvation army stores. The kids have even helped me, because the toys are in bags that they can't see through (the green kind) and TIED very carefully. They ask, I tell them. These are toys you aren't interested in anymore. It's time to let new children play with them. Generally they are ok with moving them on, and they do get to see where the toys are going. In lots of cases, the people receiving them - a secretary or whomever - is SO appreciative, but I do ask her to wait to open the bag until we leave. My dd donated ALL her barbie/polly/pony stuff that way (totally voluntary lol). These kids get GUSHED over for being 'generous' and tbh it has really helped to make them GENEROUS!!!

My 'threat' of "if I pick it up, I get to keep it" is seriously for real, and they know it. Not negotiable.

If you want, you can set a date - they can show you that they DO care for the toys, or they can donate it. If you pick up a toy 3x, then clearly they DON'T care about it. Or you will be doing donation on the 15th and you're looking to collect a few nice things before then.







See if the stuff gets picked up? This will work once they know that you are playing for real, and that it's not negotiable. Once I take something because I picked it up, it's really mine. TBH stuff that I leave around a lot and don't take care of I also donate. It's maybe a good rule in general.

I think that you are doing a FABULOUS job as a mommy to what seem like (from my cyber-distance) 2 wonderful and/but challenging children. In their own ways, they are encouraging you to grow. Take their blessings with as much sanity time as you need to continue to regroup. You are in this for the long haul - and it'd be good if you came squeezing out the other end with a bit of brains and sanity left!

Don't power struggle w/them. Set the rules that work for you, with consequences that work for YOU and move on. Life has too many fun turns in it for you to pull your hair out over his crappy moments. Oh - and poor behavior in the car gets the car pulled right over in my house. IT's dangerous for you to be focusing on his tantrum/fit/whatever when you need to be careful driving. Just find a good safe spot and pull over. When he's ready to be quiet and let you drive, drive. When he's freaking out, stop. I recommend you start this on a day when you can take your time getting ANYWHERE for 48 hrs.

Ah - and the shopping. I have totally done the cart to customer service thing. For a big guy of 7 I would even ask HIM to explain why someone from the store now has to put away all your items. It's a last resort, of course, as I feel that borders on shaming (which I abhor). A child of 3-5 probably wouldn't get it, but a 7yo+ certainly does! Pestering is like harassment! It's TOTALLY not ok for a kid to do that to ANYONE.

Lastly, my friend, is he having issues w/other kids, or is he well accepted? Is he a bully, or a member of the pack. Seeing whether he has other issues will maybe help you to determine whether he would benefit from some OT type therapy, like friendship circles etc. These will help him to realize that the kind of behaviors you have described are not well accepted in our world.

Best of luck, mama!!! You are certainly NOT alone!!


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

This thread is helping me so thank you to everyone who shared their ideas. I can't help to think, though, while reading, *how* do you get them to listen? or *make them* clean up without screaming/threatening/locking them in their room (none of which I'm doing. I end up defeated/ignored because I have no GD way to deal with it)

I've done the "Let's do it together" thing in a sing-songy voice, I've done the what doesn't get picked up is mine thing (and followed through--I put 3 full bins away..they didnt' care AT ALL)...If I take everything away tomorrow, they will not care, or if I explain X needs to be done before we do Y, they will dig their heels in further and yell and scream and holler at me (I'm getting SCREAMED at regularly around here







) Especially over the computer. I wish I could get rid of it and told her yesterday *for real* that if she can't treat everyone with respect while she's on her computer time that she will lose that priveledge for a whole month.

I know that's long, I know it sounds harsh, but this has been going on for *months*, and she's being totally violent to her sister daily, to me, and berating us with her yelling and screaming and we're all 'scared' of her. A couple nights ago she said she'd wait till I was sleeping and then she was going to hit me 

The other day, my TWO year old is whispering to the FIVE year old " I don't like mama. She's so meanie. I'm not playing with her" etc. Which I hear several times a day, from both of them, on a regular despite trying so hard. It's like what's the point?

I feel like I've lost complete control and I need Supernanny or whatever to come in and save my family









edited to add: I know this is not just a cleaning problem. I'm being bullied by my 5 yo (and the 2 yo has started too) on a regular. I can't even describe how she sceams at me. Similar to that thread with the kid who slaps his mom on Dr. Phil







:


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## want2bmoms (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neveryoumindthere* 
This thread is helping me so thank you to everyone who shared their ideas. I can't help to think, though, while reading, *how* do you get them to listen? or *make them* clean up without screaming/threatening/locking them in their room (none of which I'm doing. I end up defeated/ignored because I have no GD way to deal with it)

I've done the "Let's do it together" thing in a sing-songy voice, I've done the what doesn't get picked up is mine thing (and followed through--I put 3 full bins away..they didnt' care AT ALL)...If I take everything away tomorrow, they will not care, or if I explain X needs to be done before we do Y, they will dig their heels in further and yell and scream and holler at me (I'm getting SCREAMED at regularly around here







) Especially over the computer. I wish I could get rid of it and told her yesterday *for real* that if she can't treat everyone with respect while she's on her computer time that she will lose that priveledge for a whole month.

I know that's long, I know it sounds harsh, but this has been going on for *months*, and she's being totally violent to her sister daily, to me, and berating us with her yelling and screaming and we're all 'scared' of her. A couple nights ago she said she'd wait till I was sleeping and then she was going to hit me 
The other day, my TWO year old is whispering to the FIVE year old " I don't like mama. She's so meanie. I'm not playing with her" etc. Which I hear several times a day, from both of them, on a regular despite trying so hard. It's like what's the point?

I feel like I've lost complete control and I need Supernanny or whatever to come in and save my family









edited to add: I know this is not just a cleaning problem. I'm being bullied by my 5 yo (and the 2 yo has started too) on a regular. I can't even describe how she sceams at me. Similar to that thread with the kid who slaps his mom on Dr. Phil







:


Get some tickets,
put a password on the computer,
decide how many mintues she gets a day,
_and at what time._
she earnes x#(1/5/10) of minutes on the computer for doing something you want her do to - maybe start at one minute at a time, so she has to earn fifteen tickets throughout the day (I would also start with low time than you plan to give her, so that she can earn more time, if she's been really good for a month.) She doesn't know when she's goin to get them, but be sure to keep one of them for earning close to her time.
over time, spread it out more, explain that the tickes are worth more, but she has more chances to win one! If she is not being appropriate, (hitting, saying mean things, etc.) she either a)does not get the extra time, or b)has to start over, or c) has nothing good/nothing bad happens.
In any case, if she's being threathening to you (and where did she learn this? bad past relationship, old hitting habbits?) you need to sit her down, as close as you can get her to be, on your lap even, and tell her how you feel in simple, easy words that she can understand. "you said you want to hit mommy. Mommy does not hit you. It makes me sad/scared/etc when you say that to mommy." you also need to find out what is causing her to do this. really listen, ask her why she is saying this.
Personally, I think it's ok to scream, but not at people. I would say, "I hear you need to get some screams out, you can do that in your room"(screaming room, bathroom, etc), or tell her that she clearly "needs to get some screams out, and that's ok, but it's not ok to scream at mommy/it hurts mommy's ears when you scream." then stand up and walk out of the room.

it also sounds like your children may not have toys they are interested in or just flat have too many. If you took three bins away and they don't care, donate them to charity. Maybe your children are more interested in found toys then prefabricated toys, IOW, they'd rather play with sticks and cardboard boxes. I would stat by rotating a few toys in at at time, so they just have a few things to play with at once, no more than a small bin to start with. Cycle them out every month or so, so that things stay new. i really am a fan of the two-four bins cycled out every month. the toys always seem new, stay at a low, manageable number, and are easy to toss if broken, or get rid of if they aren't used. I do suggest not keeping broken things, and making regular donations to charity. Have the girls help you with this endevor.(even if they don't know *what* they are donating, like some of the other mamas on here said).
I would keep doing the if "I pick it up, it's mine"
Whenever they get new toys, something has to go - one for one. Pull everything out, and for each new toy they got, something has to go to charity (old or new, if they really love this old toys better than that new one, it's ok to send the new thing to charity!) try to get them to spread out their new stuff so they get new stuff next time too.

be sure to treat them as you want to be, and not accepting their abuse. If you hear your two year old saying things like that, stop her right there, and tell her it hurts your feelings and ask her if she knows what it means.
I hope any of that helps.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

I'm going to start a new thread. Sorry oceanbaby







Hope things get better soon for both of us!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I took the wood slingshot out of the garbage, for exactly the reason the pp noted above. Why would I value a hunk of plastic garbage like Hungry Hungry Hippos above the little y-shaped branch that he found and wrapped a rubber band around.

I'm not sure what to do with the toys once they've been taken. Are they gone forever? Do they have to ask for them? Are they just gone for the day?

I hate this arbitrary, control trip, punishment path, but I am just at my end and don't know what else to do. My kids are more than happy to just have mom pick everything up. At no point has one of them given any indication that they've though "Hmm, mom is modeling this responsible behavior of picking up toys, so I guess that's something I should be doing."









It's not 'arbitrary'...

I really like the idea that if they don't care about you putting toys away - then they have too many.

So keep going. My sister did this with her then 3.5yo. It wasn't done punitively. There was no yelling or threatening. Nothing. She would simply ask her DD to put away the toys and she took the ones that weren't put away.

****She made sure that it was 'easy' for her DD to put them away - like stuff was organized in a way that made sense****

After a week - there were basically NO toys left out.

After another week - her DD got bored of playing with what she had and wanted the other toys back. So - they were given back on a 1 per day basis.

Now, at 4.5, if toys aren't picked up - they get put away for 1 week. They get labeled with a piece of tape with the date they can come back on. But - my sister doesn't necessarily hold to it. If a friend is coming over and it's been 3 days since the Polly pockets went away - then there's a good chance she can be 'talked into' letting them come out.

As an adult - I had a HUGE issue keeping my DD's toys tidy. She's 18 months - so she can 'help' but absolutely can't be 'responsible' for them. So I put half of them away. Now there's a number that I can manage. When DD's older - maybe she'll be better at tidying than I am and she can have more toys out. But, for now, since I have to do it - we only have out what I can handle.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Seem like lots of ideas for cleaning, so I'll tell you how I solved "gimme". Or at least controlled it somewhat. Both kids get an allowance. In theory, each week, but in reality maybe every other week because I forget or don't have enough cash on me. 10% goes in the "save" bank, 10% goes in the "share" bank. The rest they can spend as they please. But I never, ever buy anything "treat-like" for them outside of holidays. They get toys for Christmas and birthdays (and special times of my chosing), they get clothes when they need them, they get food but not candy at the grocery store. Anything else and its their money. I will say "we are going to the toystore to buy a birthday present, do you want to take your wallet?" to avoid the "I don't have my money I'll pay you back" whine. It did take some time to get them to stop asking/whining. But I never once gave in, which I think made a big difference. And I give them enough money that they can reasonably buy the things they want with a little planning. And I don't limit what they buy beyond a couple of basic "not in our family" rules about guns or gun-like toys, and non-age appropriate video games. We started this when they were 3 -- helped with counting too. At 5 and 8 they don't even ask anymore.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

I didin't read all the posts, so forgive in advance, please, if this a repeat. First, I had a very strong willed child, and got in many power struggles. So I really do understand. Having said that, I recognize now that any time I entered into one, I had _already lost_. Had I to do things over? I would have followed much of Naomi Aldort's guidance in getting to the ROOT of the problem. This takes a lot of time, but really, no more time than engaging in protracted PSs, right? Part of her take on things is to remove ourselves from the battleground by examining the thoughts and beliefs we have about our children's behavior. Byron Katie's books are wonderful in helping get our thinking clear, questioning our thoughts and freeing ourselves so we can deal with what is happening now, rather than continuing to either live in the past or projecting into the future. I did alot of that and I can say with confidence that it wasn't very helpful.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Oh gosh. I can totally imagine my older child coming unglued without a predictable routine. My son who needs to know "the plan" at all times, at least 24 hours in advance. I firmly believe that 80% or discipline problems can be eliminated by carefully crafted routines.

I think in your shoes I would start small. Don't try to implement a total "schedule" and expect yourself to stick to it. Maybe pick one part of your day that is particularly rough and create a routine for that time of day that you think you can stick to (mostly) for a few weeks. See if that makes a difference. Bedtime, or right after school, or whatever.

ITA w/this! We've had a disrupted last few weeks, and my kids' behavior is backlashing this week. I can't imagine how they would behave if we didn't stick to the basics - dinner every night at about the same time, breakfast together as a family, outside chores and a walk to the mailbox every afternoon.

I would even go so far to suggest that your lifestyle might be disrupting his sleep, which is in turn disrupting his ability to control himself and behave. My dd gets much like your ds when she's overtired, she's seeking stimulation for the adrenaline rush that will get her moving again. Does he get enough sleep?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
It's not 'arbitrary'...

I really like the idea that if they don't care about you putting toys away - then they have too many.

So keep going. My sister did this with her then 3.5yo. It wasn't done punitively. There was no yelling or threatening. Nothing. She would simply ask her DD to put away the toys and she took the ones that weren't put away.

****She made sure that it was 'easy' for her DD to put them away - like stuff was organized in a way that made sense****

After a week - there were basically NO toys left out.

After another week - her DD got bored of playing with what she had and wanted the other toys back. So - they were given back on a 1 per day basis.

Now, at 4.5, if toys aren't picked up - they get put away for 1 week. They get labeled with a piece of tape with the date they can come back on. But - my sister doesn't necessarily hold to it. If a friend is coming over and it's been 3 days since the Polly pockets went away - then there's a good chance she can be 'talked into' letting them come out.

As an adult - I had a HUGE issue keeping my DD's toys tidy. She's 18 months - so she can 'help' but absolutely can't be 'responsible' for them. So I put half of them away. Now there's a number that I can manage. When DD's older - maybe she'll be better at tidying than I am and she can have more toys out. But, for now, since I have to do it - we only have out what I can handle.

We have done a similar thing, but in a truly non-punitive way. I have 4 Sterlite containers and 4 big boxes, and the toys are all divided up with 2-3 things in each one for each kid, plus one or two that they all play with. I rotate them every couple of weeks, when the kids start getting bored.

The toys don't get picked up by the kids every afternoon. Or even by me or dh. But there's only a few out, so it's not that big of deal. And when it's time to pick them up, there's no immediate reaction of fear or resentment, and my kids pretty much happily join in. If they're busy doing something else and I want them picked up, it takes about two minutes, tops.

I just don't think children should be punished for not being able to manage a multitude of possessions. It's a very difficult thing to learn.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Some of this is duplicating what others have said, some are new ideas (because I'm procrastinating about my teaching, and this is more fun!)

*About cleaning up toys*
DRASTICALLY reduce the number of toys. I cleaned out a lot of toys about a month ago (OK, 3/4 of them just got stuffed in a toy bin in the "playroom" which they never use), and clean up is a WHOLE lot easier! I'm going to do another purge in August when I'm done with summer school.

Rotating toys works too, as people have suggested.

Generally, when our kids "lose" a toy, it's gone for a day. But if your kids aren't noticing, then maybe those toys aren't real favorites anyway and they can stay away until the kids ask for them!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
We never know if we'll be home for dinner, or what any particular day will bring, and it works for us, so it's hard to try to come up with a schedule. But I do think that ds1 in particular might do better with one. The problem is that dh and I have no idea how to implement this.

As someone who needs a routine/schedule, I will tell you that I get very very cranky when I don't know what to expect. Leaving things 'open-ended' is very stressful for me.

What about a "routine" rather than a schedule? A schedule might be interpreted as a set time for things, but even without set times, knowing what's going to happen that day is very important for my kids.

If your schedule really changes from day to day, you can post it on the fridge and talk about it at breakfast. "First we're going to the farmer's market, and then we'll do swimming lessons. After that we'll have some lunch and some time for play. I'm really hoping to sit down with my book for an hour at that time. At 4, we'll go pick dad up and come home for dinner."

Can you start by "scheduling" one thing firmly - such as dinner or wake up time, and then developing the rest of the routine from there? For us, the one firm thing is mealtimes (lunch and dinner). Without fixed mealtimes, our house becomes chaos. My kids do OK with variable wake up/bedtimes, for example. Other kids I know absolutely need fixed bedtimes. What's the one "fixed" thing that makes the most sense for your family?

We also have a set 'clean up' time every day after dinner (15 minutes) and that's enough to keep entropy at bay. And since the kids inevitably want to go out and play, but can't until they've made a good faith effort at clean up, there's enough incentive to keep them working. We have gone back and 'reset' the timer to start over again if they simply aren't cleaning. Again, having a time for this helps my kids because then they don't feel like I'm always nagging (and I don't feel like I'm always nagging), and they know what to expect.

*Other ideas:*
My kids are hungrier in the summer. So, the other thing a schedule does for ME is to make me make sure the kids are fed! Dh has this trouble with the kids a lot. He's not very regular in his meal times, and so they'll be melting down and he'll be frustrated. I'll get home, look at the clock and say "It's 12:45, have they eaten lunch?" "Oh, no." He's getting much better about offering food at noon or so.

I'm seeing in some of your sons behaviors (the book reading episode is where this struck me) are inexpert requests for some connection with you. He wanted to read, he had to wait, you kept pushing it back (for obvious reasons), and he got grumpier.

Our house works best when we set some pretty firm boundaries _and_ take time every day for connection with the kids. I try to get 30 minutes in each day where the each child gets to direct the activity. And I don't worry about cleaning up before it. It really helps a lot of other things run smoothly. My kids are a lot more cooperative when they've had their connection time.

I don't remember what book it was in but the advice to "ignore the attitude" and pay attention to the behavior works well for me. So, if ds is stomping around while picking up, we ignore the stomping. Remember too that it really does take two to argue. I know it's exhausting when he _won't give up_ (I've got a kid like that too), but eventually, if I offer sympathy, but do not engage in any discussion of the issue, he does stop. "I know it's hard. You really wanted to go to the park." STOP. No, "but we don't have time." No, "but we can go tomorrow."

I would go to the store without them and explain to them why. So, you or dh goes to the grocery store by yourselves. Maybe you can try once a month taking them, and if they start in on the 'gimmees', give one warning and leave.

I'm OK with imposing consequences, especially when I feel that things have gotten out of whack in our house. What kinds of consequences you choose depends, I think, on your situation.

I've also had to be very direct with ds about how some of his behaviors are interpreted. "When I've spent all day with you doing something fun, and then you complain because I won't buy you an ice cream cone, it makes me angry. I think that you aren't appreciating what we've done, and I don't like going out and doing things if no one appreciates it." Dd "gets" this kind of thing without my saying it overtly, but ds needs it overtly.

Finally, some reading suggestions:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (one of my favorite books)

The Challenging Child by Stanley Greenspan


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## lifewithkids (Jan 11, 2006)

I love this thread. I could've posted the exact same post as well. The advice is all good. I do a lot of the things written already but it is nice to hear others are struggling with the same issues.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with the "he's trying to connect with you" thoughts.

What was it about the cafe that he had in mind? Was it sitting together reconnecting? Was it a nice meal? A cold drink? Was there any discussion about it, or did you just think, "Ack! Cafe=money we don't have right now!" or something like I would?







Because I've really found that sometimes what I'm thinking, "We can't do that," about a request isn't even really what the request is about, you know?

Cleaning up here goes WAY better if we start with a clean palatte (sp?). And when we've reached a natural stopping point, I say, "OK. You guys done with all these legos? You mind if I put them up? No? OK, cool. You guys wanna help me and we can get out to the pool that much faster?" When I take responsibility for cleaning up here and stop expecting/demanding/passive aggressively







trying to coerce my family into doing it with/for me, I get a TON more help! It's very counter-intuitive.









Would it help to actually say, "yes" more? Again, counter-intuitive....but that whole when a need is filled it is no longer a need thing. Even validating the wants goes a long way here. Fulfilling the wish in fantasy works really well, too. I remember one time when my oldest was 3ish and we went to the grocery store. At the time he was really into the balloons at the floral/gifty part of the store. And as soon as we walked in, he pointed to a big, shiny balloon and asked for it. It was $7. Oh my goodness. I was like, "SEVEN dollars?! For a piece of crap that will be in the trash in a day or less?" But he was really wanting that balloon, so I decided to take it minute by minute and see what happened. Well, he carried that balloon around the entire time I shopped (actually, it was clipped to the cart while he was in the seat-thingy) and would pull the string and gaze up at it adoringly, and it really made the whole visit quite smooth and quiet. But I was pretty much dreading the moment of check-out b/c I hadn't decided what I was gonna do yet. So I asked him if we could put the balloon back and say, "Bye bye," to it. And in the most nonchalant way he was like, "OK. Bye bye balloon."







He'd had his fill, you know?

The last thing I'll throw out there is that book about the Love Languages. It talks about how for some people gifts and things are ways to get/show love. And I know my oldest is definitely like that (I am, too). So it may be that that's part of the "gimmes" in your family, too. Acts of service is another one that resonated for me also. Cleaning up for someone certainly falls into that category for us, too. Lots of times if I can bring in a drink or a little tray of food or fluff a pillow or straighten a blanket, that can go a long way toward filling up someone's "cup" here. And then, when it's time to clean up, they've got more reserves to help. (Which is good, if you're like me, too, where having someone clean up can also be an "act of love." Or the inverse, when people NOT helping me clean up can feel like no one loves me or cares.














)


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I think you're in an angry place and it's tough to deal with it when you are pissed. So part of what I'd do is have a positive attitude, you know when I actually believe that we'll have a good grocery trip, we do! But if I go in dreading it, it seems to affect what happens.

I'd see if you can do some baby steps with the kids, and also find some things they are doing right, and express your thanks when they do help out. I think it's natural for kids to ask for things, but it's also OK for you to set limits and say no. For me, it depends on what they ask for. I'm OK with something like a piece of gum at the end of the trip, or eating an apple while we're shopping. I'm pretty laid back about things.

I haven't had my kids do much picking up, but I'd try things like a timer or pick up games, etc. It is about not getting negative on them, because that only sets up a power struggle and they will tune you out.
Flylady often advises not to be a martyr, so, don't.

Good luck! Have you had any fun experiences together with them lately? It sounds like you all need to have a little bonding time.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

The other thought I have is that you may be running on empty and need some time to yourself to be able to relax and recharge. Sometimes my husband watches the boys on a Saturday afternoon and I get some time to myself and I think it helps a lot to have breaks now and then. If you're not already getting this, work on making it happen and so you may feel happier when you come back to family life. Have a coffee date with a friend, or just call a friend to chat with while your kids are busy with dad or even a sitter.

Are you stressed over money issues? It sounds like the expectation that your child will be thankful for camp may be associated with the costs. I think it's fine to teach your kids a little about money. OTOH, I think a lot of the things you might expect them to appreciate may be just things that are normal to them, like spending time with you is just part of regular family life and not really a special treat.

Do you feel like the kids owe you for what you're doing for them? I would also look at how you feel and if you are keeping score.

Good luck!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow, so much to respond to! I need to go to bed, but I'll try.

First - I was in a very angry place when I wrote the OP. I should have put "vent" in the title!

I think what it really comes down to is this: I could prevent 90% of this stuff from happening. Yes, ds1 can be relentless, and ds2 is infuriating in his total lack of response to what I have to say sometimes. But I know deep down that if I were to get more on top of some basic things, I would be able to be much more calm and patient, which would result in my kids being more calm.

For instance, I get pissy when the house is messy. If I kept the house generally clean, then I could deal with just their mess without also being stressed about the bathroom and the laundry and the dirty stairs and the unmade beds.

Same thing with food/groceries. If I was more disciplined about meal plans and grocery shopping and having a more regular schedule of meals, I wouldn't already be on edge when they do something that makes me crazy.

We do have a bedtime routine. We generally get ready for bed at about the same time, and the routine is always the same - brush teeth, pick out books, (jump on the bed), read books, and then dh and I each lie with a child while they go to sleep. And now that I think about it, we've never had issues with bedtime. Very rarely has there ever been an argument about when to go to sleep or any of it.

And I will admit - we don't have a "place for everything." I do think it is hard for them to clean up. We are moving in a few weeks, and a top priority for dh and me is that anything that we bring into the new house has a designated spot, especially for the kids.

About the cafe - while I'm sure ds1 enjoys spending the time together, it's the sugar he's after. And that's what the gimmes are all about for him - it's not so much toys. It's the junk food, always. He wants to get a muffin or a donut or an ice cream or candy or whatever. He's always been quite the sugar fiend.

So, while my kids can definitely be exasparating in their own special ways, I know it's my behavior that is really at the root of this. I need to figure out how to provide a more calm, organized home, which will result in a more calm, organized mommy who has the energy to deal with frustrating situations without losing her cool.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 

So, while my kids can definitely be exasparating in their own special ways, I know it's my behavior that is really at the root of this. I need to figure out how to provide a more calm, organized home, which will result in a more calm, organized mommy who has the energy to deal with frustrating situations without losing her cool.


Good luck, mama. As it's said, you have to put your own oxygen mask on first before you attempt to help others.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Oceanbaby, I think my ds1 must be related to yours. Been reading the replies with interest (& reading some of them to dh). Ds1 actually does clean up...some, but the incessant whining and freaking out when we take something away because of something he's done...I just don't know how to deal.

Quote:

The problem is that talking with him doesn't seem to get us anywhere. He's never been really good at expressing complex emotions, and if I say something like "I don't want to yell. I would like to be able to ask you once to pick up/get dressed/whatever and have it happen. What can we do to make this situation work better for all of us?" he'll get all dramatic and say something like "just kill me." Not in a sad way, but in a sarcastic, teenager kind of way.
This especially. Except he's more sad/depressed than sarcastic. Does your ds call himself names, too? When he was really little, mine would slam his head into things when he was frustrated. Now he calls himself horrible names & tells me to call him them, too. He's also told me on several occasions that we should just give him up for adoption.

Sorry, mini-hijack. I'll go back to just reading.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

hello! my kids are 7 and 4. They used to fight all the time!! I have read a ton of GD books though, and changed my reactions to things, and at least the fighting got mostly better.

They do still fight, but not constantly. I separate them if they can't stop.

As far as consequences, we do strikes. Ds was into baseball for a while so we started 3 strikes and you are out (time out wasnt working for us anymore)... For.. whatever.. not listening mostly, they get a strike. I usually warn them they will get a strike if it happens again, etc.... if they get 3 strikes in one day , they lose tv, computer and video games...

they hate that. while those things are limited in our home, they are allowed and they hate losing that time, so they are usually pretty good about not accumulating strikes.

My dd is horrible about playing wiht everything in her room and just strewing it all over they house!! Makes me crazy! So, we have been putting toys in the basement to rotate. Also, I make her clean up (if i remember) before she starts something else. If we keep having trouble, I just keep removing more and more toys.. I think we are getting to a more controllable point though.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:

I fixed a lot of the messy toys problem by just getting rid of ALL OF THEM.

We have: books, a few balls, a few cars/trucks, a few dolls, a few blocks.

That's it. We make toys out of anything else- sheets, couch cushions, etc.
Okay - this is the exact opposite of one of my "arrrggggghhhhhhhhhh" issues. I don't mind TOY messes. Well, at least not as much as I mind all the NON toy messes. The cardboard boxes and "snow" they make out of styrofoam shipping inserts. The rocks and shells and other "treasures" they bring into the house and them end up leaving everywhere other than the shelves and drawers we've agreed would be where these things should be stored. The yarn and string and floss mazes strung throughout the house. So help me I even stripped their bedroom (they also have a playroom) of all toys (left the books and lovies) in a fit of frustration one day and discovered after that day's attempt at "quiet time" that they had stung all the coat hangers from a hook they found in the ceiling - the clothes were in a pile in the floor.

The latest craze is throwing parties for their stuffed animals with paper plates and napkins and candles (unlit) and plastic silverware from the pantry. My efforts to provide them with a set number of disposable partyware have failed. They keep helping themselves to more and more non-toy items and leaving big messes all over and IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!!!

I can't monitor three children every moment for 14 hours a day. I just can't.

But I don't know what to do to get them to clean up these types of messes (new, and improved each week) without resorting to yelling and screaming and threatening and all those other non-gentle behaviors I hate myself for.


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## bunnybartlett (Aug 27, 2002)

link me to the "I am a new mom today" thread I cannot find it.....


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I took the wood slingshot out of the garbage, for exactly the reason the pp noted above. Why would I value a hunk of plastic garbage like Hungry Hungry Hippos above the little y-shaped branch that he found and wrapped a rubber band around.

I'm not sure what to do with the toys once they've been taken. Are they gone forever? Do they have to ask for them? Are they just gone for the day?

I hate this arbitrary, control trip, punishment path, but I am just at my end and don't know what else to do. My kids are more than happy to just have mom pick everything up. At no point has one of them given any indication that they've though "Hmm, mom is modeling this responsible behavior of picking up toys, so I guess that's something I should be doing."









I think the answer to your question of how long the toys are gone is figuring out what your kids care about. It's not a consequence if they don't care. So if they are perfectly happy never seeing Hungry Hippo again, send it to the Salvation Army. Find something else that matters to them, because withholding things only works if they *care* about them.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

want2bemoms... great post!!!!


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## want2bmoms (Feb 8, 2008)

thanks


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