# Help - MIL's inappropriate requests of DD have me scared now.



## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

Edited to change the title and add that DD told me again last night that she sometimes has to wipe Grammy's bottom when they go to the bathroom together, because Grammy sometimes forgets how. I am less and less inclined to think this is a "story" - whatever happened, this idea should not even be in my DD's mind. DH seems not to want to discuss it, and not worried about it. I really feel like I'm alone on this one...I'm considering simply removing the opportunity for problems and not allowing MIL time alone with DD. But I also feel that no one in DH's family will support me in that. Help! Experience? Advice? Anything? I'm a wreck over this.

*********************************
I'm at a loss here, but this is too important for me to let it go.

A little background: I simply don't like my MIL. Some of my feelings about her are based on experience, some just come from the fact that we are very different people and I flat out find her annoying. My DH understands how I feel, and shares some of my frustrations with her, but when it comes down to it I know he basically trusts his mom, even if she annoys him. All that to say that I am probably more sensitive to the idea of her doing something that I don't like than is necessary.

My MIL is one of those people who had a lot to say about potty training, and pushed hard for us to train DD early (she's PT now, and has been since she was about 30 months, at her own pace). MIL always wants DD to go to the bathroom with her, and takes DD when she needs to go. I found her obsession with it a little odd, but never really thought much about it because I don't think there's anything inherently troubling about DD seeing an adult use the bathroom - that is one of the ways kids learn to do it.

But - a few days ago, we were talking about using the potty, and DD told me that, when she goes to the bathroom with Grammy, they help each other - Grammy wipes her bottom, and she wipes Grammy's bottom. That made me







and I asked her what she meant by that, and DD immediately backtracked and said, "I forgot, I don't help her." I'm certain that the look on my face indicated my alarm, because DD looked pretty surprised, and I fear that my reaction communicated that I thought SHE (DD) had done something wrong. I haven't been able to learn any more about this since, and I don't want to harp on the topic, because I don't want to scare my DD. And she's 3.5, and does sometimes say things that aren't quite right as she's trying to figure out how to explain a situation.

Now...my DD is perfectly capable of using the bathroom independently. She does not need help from an adult - so there is no reason for MIL to wipe her after toilet use. And I see NO way in which it's appropriate for her to be "wiping" my MIL. Part of me finds that so disturbing that I want to panic and think the worst, and part of me thinks it's just my really weird MIL wanting to do this as part of "teaching" DD to use the potty.

Now - I may be overreacting in a big way, but I feel like I need to understand what's happening here. I don't know how to talk to DH or anyone else about this yet. I do not feel comfortable with MIL caring for DD alone until I get this straightened out.

So - I fear that confronting MIL about it isn't the answer. I'll either offend her asking about something that's actually quite innocent, or give her more reason to cover up something sinister. Should I just eavesdrop outside the bathroom door the next time we're visiting family? What should I do?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

You could just put a stop to "group" bathroom trips. Next time MIL tries to use the buddy system you could just say that you're trying to teach your daughter about privacy.

If you did decide to tell her that you don't think she and dd need to "help" each other so you're going to put an end to the group bathroom trips, I don't think you'd be out of line.

I personally find it's a little odd for a grown woman to insist a child accompany her to the bathroom just for fun. That seems weird to me and would not fly in my family or extended family.

It seems that even if MIL is not outright up to no good, she does have some freaky boundary issues.

And to me "I forgot" sounds like the beginning of "I forgot I'm not supposed to tell you this." Not to worry you further, but that was my gut reaction.


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## mrspeeper (Jun 27, 2004)

My suggestion would be to casually play pretend w/ your DD...say something about "Let's pretend we're at MIL's house, let's have a tea party....let's bake cookies....let's go potty." And see what she does. I think at that age acting it out might be a fun, no-pressure way for her to express what happened. She could show you if she can't tell you. Just an idea. I think that's why "play therapy" is used so much by pediatric psychologists during investigations for this sort of thing.
Your MIL probably was just showing her how to wipe herself properly or something, but who knows? A 3-year-old is so hard to figure out sometimes. If your gut tells you something isn't right, I wouldn't leave her there anymore either!
Good luck mama. I hope it's nothing to worry about.
Hugs!


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## Earthy~Mama (Apr 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
You could just put a stop to "group" bathroom trips. Next time MIL tries to use the buddy system you could just say that you're trying to teach your daughter about privacy.

If you did decide to tell her that you don't think she and dd need to "help" each other so you're going to put an end to the group bathroom trips, I don't think you'd be out of line.

I personally find it's a little odd for a grown woman to insist a child accompany her to the bathroom just for fun. That seems weird to me and would not fly in my family or extended family.

It seems that even if MIL is not outright up to no good, she does have some freaky boundary issues.

And to me "I forgot" sounds like the beginning of "I forgot I'm not supposed to tell you this." Not to worry you further, but that was my gut reaction.

ITA!!!! I really hope it is innocent!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

wow mama, that would freak me out a bit too. I totally agree with the suggestion of having her act it out. Tell her we're playing "grandma's house" today and tell her you need her to teach you how to be grandma. If she replicates the behavior, I think something needs to happen--I'm not sure what, but something. I too would say you would be totally within your rights to tell MIL that group bathroom trips are not permitted but I too would fear it may make things worse if you ever leave her there without you.
It's just weird, I mean it's one thing for a little girl to go potty with her mom--it's something totally different to go with your grandmother--I'm pretty sure I never saw any of my grandparents private parts!


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

That would concern me greatly, too. I would put a stop to those "buddy buddy" bathroom trips immediately. And like mentioned above, try the role-playing experiment. What your MIL did is very inappropriate, even if there was no sexual abuse going on.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I would end all unsupervised visits. I would also tell MIL no more bathroom buddy games. The safety of children should always come before the feelings of adults.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Beth..first off (HUGS) to you. It makes your heart skip a beat when you are faced with the possibility that your child was abused in some way. I know how you feel. I think it admirable and smart that you are listening to that mama bear sixth sense and are interested in finding out more. The PP's have brought up some good suggestions and I have nothing to add but wanted to say I support you. Good luck and let us know what you do.


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## rowantree (May 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspeeper*
My suggestion would be to casually play pretend w/ your DD...say something about "Let's pretend we're at MIL's house, let's have a tea party....let's bake cookies....let's go potty." And see what she does. I think at that age acting it out might be a fun, no-pressure way for her to express what happened. She could show you if she can't tell you. Just an idea. I think that's why "play therapy" is used so much by pediatric psychologists during investigations for this sort of thing.
Your MIL probably was just showing her how to wipe herself properly or something, but who knows? A 3-year-old is so hard to figure out sometimes. If your gut tells you something isn't right, I wouldn't leave her there anymore either!
Good luck mama. I hope it's nothing to worry about.
Hugs!


I think this is a great idea to see what goes on. I also think focusing dd on ger privacy so that she can say that she wants privacy just in case your not there, and you can back her by telling MIL that your workin on t his issue. Sounds alittle wierd hon - im real sorry.


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm bumping this back up because I'm really worried. DH and I have not been able to communicate well about this (in part because he's out of town, and I think it's hard to talk effectively on the phone, and in part because he either isn't all that worried about it or is too freaked to talk, I can't be sure).

I'm sorry - I'm just so upset, and I need to talk this out, and I can't take it to anyone IRL right now.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm sorry you're not getting anywhere with this yet Beth, have you managed to talk to dd about it again yet?


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

my dd will not be left alone with my mil for a long time
i don't like her or trust her period
i don't care if it hurts her feelings or dh does not thinkit is polite
i love my dd most


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## greymama (May 30, 2003)

This would be completely unnacceptable in my book. No way, no how would I let this continue. I can't even imagine a person thinking this is acceptable to do with their grandchild. Do whatever you need to do to protect your child and don't worry about your MIL's feeling on this issue. It appears she has some body/bathroom issues that need to be addressed.

Good luck. I can just imagine how this conversation would go if it were my MIL.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

DD immediately backtracked and said, "I forgot, I don't help her."

Does it sound to anyone else like it does to me, that the dd was coached to "never tell anyone" this stuff, and forgot that she was never supposed to tell anyone?


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## juliebuggie (Dec 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
Does it sound to anyone else like it does to me, that the dd was coached to "never tell anyone" this stuff, and forgot that she was never supposed to tell anyone?

That is what i was thinking too. I would deffently end group potty trips. I am sorry you have to worry about this. Better you keep your dd safe them worry about some ones feelings. They are there feeling and they are resonsable for them not you.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beth568*
DH seems not to want to discuss it, and not worried about it. I really feel like I'm alone on this one...

This is what caught my eye - sounds like MIL did the same thing to DH when he was young, maybe, and also told DH "never tell anyone." Like a repeat child molester, yk? Definitely do something to keep MIL and DD apart. Sorry you are alone in this, though.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

My dd is a little younger than your dd, but she does say some pretty weird stuff sometimes.
I am a SAHM and we don't watch TV and she has never ever been in the care of someone else (which, I don't know if this is a good thing or not, it's just circumstance) and when we play with others, I am always there.
So one day out of the blue, she points at her breasts and says: "I have boo boos, mommy."
Now, where she got this--I have no clue on earth!
If she stayed with a care giver--the first thing I would be thinking is: abuse--this is horrible! But since she has never left my side since birth--I have no clue where it came from. We call them breasts, always have. And my kids nursed/are nursing until 2 or CLW--so again, no clue as to why she said this.
She knows that they "feed babies" and we don't try to make them dirty or anything--so why this became a sudden fascination and she kept wanting to show them to me and calling them this was really unsettling for me for a while. But I just let it go, didn't make a big deal of it and corrected her gently each time she called them this and reminded her what they were for.

So I guess I am mentioning this story as a way to tell you that kids do say weird things. And unlike the other posters, I don't think the play acting part is going to be a real indicator of what she has done/not done with MIL.
My child is pretty creative and can make up the oddest things and then remember them and repeat them to my DH or other family.
Stuff like: "Mommy let me fly!" or "Daddy and I ate ice cream for dinner!",
etc. We don't even eat milk products! LOL! And flying? What on earth...?

However, I think NiteNicole hit it right on the head.
To have your MIL taking your DD to the potty is out of bounds. Seeing mommmy and daddy use the potty is one thing, but for me, beyond that (extended family, etc.) does not sit right. So regardless of what your DH says to defend her, she has boundary issues.

So again, using NiteNichole's advice--you don't need to confront MIL, but simply state that you are working on privacy issues and that DD goes to the potty only with you in public (safety issues) and alone in private. And just try not burn any bridges by accusing her of anything, because that always makes everything worse (and your MIL is still wrong, but you need to deal with her at family gatherings, so less stress is better).

Just as you said: confronting her will either make her angry or cover up anything sinister. So taking charge of you DD in all circumstances is your best bet.

Hang in there, I'm sure that this is pretty painful and stressful and I really feel for you.


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## rosie29 (Aug 18, 2004)

I agree with the PP's who suggested stressing the privacy issue and not allowing group potty trips.

How is your MIL's physical health? Is there any possibility that your MIL has her own difficulties wiping herself - i.e., limited mobility, that sort of thing? I just thought I'd throw that out there. I still WOULDN'T approve of your DD being the one to help her with this, but I just wanted to suggest it in case home health care is something you need to look into.

You have our support, beth568! Protecting your child is your top job!


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

I am with the pp that the " I forgot I don't help her " smells of being coached to not tell

As an Incest survivor mama GO WITH YOUR GUT ON THIS
if you GUT is SCREAMING problems/trouble/inappropriate etc GO WITH THE GUT

DD needs your love and protection and MIL and DH ( who should ALSO be PROTECTING HIS DD NOT HIS M IN THIS CASE MPJO) can just get over it if you change rules and enforce boundaries

I also agree with the pp who suggested the role playing with dd. I think that would be a really good idea

ok off the







now..


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I don't think I would let MIL be alone with dd anymore.

The fact that she takes your dd with her when MIL goes to the bathroom is totally bizarre. Even if that is all that happened, I wouldn't allow it. I find it very creepy. MIL has too much interest, and I'd have a major problem with that. It isn't healthy or normal.

Then you add the wiping issue ...







:

Don't let others convince you to minimize your concerns. You have right to be concerned. I'd even say you have a responsibility to be concerned.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I would end all unsupervised visits. I would also tell MIL no more bathroom buddy games. The safety of children should always come before the feelings of adults.

I agree with Greaseball 100%.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie29*
How is your MIL's physical health? Is there any possibility that your MIL has her own difficulties wiping herself - i.e., limited mobility, that sort of thing? I just thought I'd throw that out there. I still WOULDN'T approve of your DD being the one to help her with this, but I just wanted to suggest it in case home health care is something you need to look into.

I thought of this, too. I think it's a way to broach the subject with your dh.

But still, no unsupervised visits, no bathroom buddy business--I think we can all agree that your gut feelings have a basis in reality here!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree with the other posters in that I would not take any chances. No more unsupervised visits, no more potty trips together...period.

I understand if it is something innocent that you don't want to hurt anyone, but seriously, I would be willing to take my chance with someone's hurt feelings over the safety of my child.

For example... (not to hijack) ... but years ago, probably 15 or more (long before I knew him) my husban's father got a letter from a niece who was grown accusing him of touching her and molesting her and this and that... of course he was shocked, denied it, said she was inbalanced etc.. no one knows the true story but everyone seems to believe she was making it up...

Well, my husband and I are having a daughter and she will NEVER under ANY circumstances be alone with his father.. we agree that while it *may* never have happened.. we just simply are not willing to take that chance with our daughter--- now to spare feelings etc, we don't come out and say that -- but she will NEVER EVER be alone with him regardless...

The point is, don't take chances with your children to spare someone's feelings. They will get over it. Your child however, may never get over being abused or whatever in the event that is what is going on...

That is how I feel...

Good luck to you mama...


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

I tink it is weird that she is very insistent on DD going potty with her, and the whole wiping and "i forgot" brings bells, i agree withthe role playing and see what happens. if she has been abused make sure to get counseling as left untreated it can really mess up a person (first hand experience)

at the same time all my sisters and I used to take showers with my grandma. then she put a towel over the toilet seat stood us on it and lotioned and powdered us. it was nothing sexual just bathtime. i continued taking showers with her until i was ten. very not weird at all.

but not to downplay how weird having a 3 year old wiping for you is.

Courtnye


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beth568*
...she sometimes has to wipe Grammy's bottom when they go to the bathroom together, because Grammy sometimes forgets how.









:























Its just doesnt sound right. I mean what does"Grammy" do about wiping when your dd isnt there to help her? Then your dd says that Grammy wipes your dd butt? Ummm I dont think Grammy forgot how to wipe her own behind. Things just dont add up IMO

My kid wouldn never be alone with that person again


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## L.J. (Nov 20, 2001)

I agree that it is best to NEVER leave these two alone again or give them the opportunity to be in the bathroom alone. Just too weird for me.

If she brings it up, let her lead the discussion. Kids can be very easily swayed and can be led to believe things that never happened. Comments, like, really? Wow, what did you do? etc. will allow her the space to discuss it with you. Playing together with dolls or something can work too.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

My dd is in a stage where she is curious about the potty, and she does go into it with my mom, as well as me and my dh. My mom told me the other day that dd followed her in and handed her the tissue. I know from experience that she will follow me in, and do whatever it takes to see what is going on. Strange as this seems, none of it makes me feel uncomfortable, as it is my childs curiosity and we are just following her lead. She has tried to follow my dad in, and my dad won't allow it. Why? because something in him makes him feel uncomfortable...that is his boundary.

Your story seems like boundaries are being crossed. First of all, your dd is fully potty trained. She doesn't need any more lessons. Secondly, it sounds as though she is being taken in not of her choice or curiosity. Thirdly, she has clearly been told not to discuss it.

Whatever your MIL's reasons, it is your child. I would make it clear to both dd and MIL that she no longer needs "help" learning how to clean herself. Furthermore, if MIL needs help, she can hire a nurse.

I wonder if your MIL has some strange obsession with cleanliness, and feels it is her obligation to teach your dd how to do it "right". Whatever it is, it just sounds strange.

My feeling is, if something doesn't feel right, it isn't right.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I have no problem with my kids going to the restroom with other family members other than me and DH.. Like Gma, Gpa, Aunts, Uncles.. But if they said anything like that I WOULD NOT let them go again..

Warm Squishy Feeilngs..
Dyan


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

dyan i also woldn't have a problem w/ dd going w/ other fmily memebers unless they were insessant about it like the gramma was.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Wow, this is a tough one. I think a 3.5 y.o. is entirely capable of saying this disturbing thing when it never actually happened - and I also think it could have happened. Your dh, when he gets home, needs to be really forthright with you about how his mom taught him to use the potty. Maybe if you phrase it as your *need* to know, because you are so worried for you dd, and make sure to act very apologetic about having to intrude on *his* privacy? Because there are privacy issues here for sure, but your dd's safety requires that he 'fess up.

Speaking of privacy, ITA that it's time for your dd to start using the potty alone, both at your house and at grandma's. That should stop anything creepy, and really, it is a good rule/habit to have in place as she goes out into the larger world and spends more time around other adults/bigger kids when you aren't there.

I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this. I am very blessed to have a great MIL but I can only imagine what it must be like to have one you don't trust.


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## SillyTreeFairy (May 4, 2005)

I've been thinking about this since I read this thread yesterday. There is no way it is appropriate for you MIL to have your dc wipe her. However, my dss is 5 and has been potty trained since about 2 and 1/2. Yet, he still isn't comfortable wiping himself all the time. We've been seriously working on this for the last year and a half but he just seems (this is gross and I'm sorry) to smear stuff all over his bum. Since my dss is the one that keeps asking for help, I don't think we should tell him no when he does make quite a mess. We do make him make 3 attempts, and most the time it is fine, but not always. Now my dss is a bright child that is a ahead in a lot of areas, but wiping is not one of them.

So I could understand if your dd needed help. What I don't get is how any adult would think it appropriate to have a child help them wipe. Your mil's intentions might be ok, but I definately would talk to her about it and if she denies it, I would cut unsupervised visits out. While people say that children make up stories, I am not comfortable distrusting such a story b/c of the risk it could be taking with your child. Perhaps, it is just me but my dss hadn't started making up stories about real life yet and he is five. If you are recounting a scenario with him, he'll make sure it is 100% accurate and correct you if its not, even if it makes him look worse. I had thought that was normal, but maybe it isn't. However, even if kids do make up stories, I think until you 100% know otherwise, you need to treat the story as true, especially after the I forgot I wasn't supposed to tell comment. I would have a hard time imagining such a young child teling a story that would throw up such a whistle at the end by denying it in such a way.

Best wishes!!


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## roundpegmom (Apr 11, 2005)

Beth,
I just wanted to give you a hug of support, I know what you are dealing with. I also have an extended family relative who just gives me the creeps. My situation is not as dire as yours, because my situations is just one of those 'weird uncle" type of things, not someone as close as a grandma. And, my kids have never given me any indication that this "weird uncle" has ever been inappropriate. So my situation is much milder, and I have said no way in he11 are my kids to be around this guy (my suspicion comes from his internet history that I had stumbled across).

I have talked to my children about this guy, asked them questions in a nonconfrontational way (IMO) and then discussed my instincts with them. I have caused a bit of trouble in the family. But, if you speak to everyone individually, they all agree that this guy is creepy, but when they are all together, he is everyones pal.







In my defense, I have spoken to this man directly about my fears and his answer was to put more passwords on his computer and make up stories about virus' that only attack when he is home from work









Anyway, trust your gut, there is no reason for grandma to have child accompany her to the restroom. Since you did not say, I am assuming grandma is not a babysitter for you and you are there when DD is there. Just keep child close to you when "nature calls" for grandma. If grandma is a primary babysitter for you, then you are going to have to work with DH to support you decision as far as grandma goes.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Whoa.







I'm with Greaseball here.

You seem really upset and afraid about it, OP, and I think THAT is signal enough from your intuition.

If you haven't read Protecting The Gift yet, now would be a very very good time.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

It's kinda controlling to make kids go potty to begin with- I know my almost three year old decides herself when to pee or poo and I wouldn't let anyone take her into the bathroom to try to encourage by example.

A three and a half year old can go by herself, even if some poos are too messy for her to handle alone.

I don;t know if I would take it literally about the wiping. MY dd sometimes comes in when we are using the potty and tries to help by handing us TP, etc. I wouldn't put it past her to say she "helps me wipe"- though I think she would laugh like she knew she was joking.

I can say that it boundaries are being crossed because a grown woman is asking a child to watch her use the potty- regardless of the child's involvement, that's weird. It's not like they are someplace public where you may keep a child in a stall with you for safety reasons. Dd is not longer "learning", now she's just being asked to watch. Ew.

I would just say that you're encouraging dd to use the potty alone. If you want to avoid confrontation (and I would) I would just say you read somewhere that *blah, blah, blah* and kids need to be encouraged to use the potty themselves. - like it's to help them form better boundaries and learn privacy.

Both my maternal g-ma and my dad have very weird boundaries that make me not want to leave a child with them (my g-ma is dead, but if she were around.) Sometimes things don't really qualify as abuse, but can make kids feel very uncomfortable and wrong. There's a fine line between being kinda freaky and weird and being a molester. It's hard to accuse someone of the former and not have them think you're accusing them of the latter.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
If you haven't read Protecting The Gift yet, now would be a very very good time.









I second this recommendation. Every parent should read this book.

Follow your instinct here, mama.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Greaseball took the words out of my mouth.

Hugs to you, dear and stand firm.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

To have your MIL taking your DD to the potty is out of bounds. Seeing mommmy and daddy use the potty is one thing, but for me, beyond that (extended family, etc.) does not sit right. So regardless of what your DH says to defend her, she has boundary issues.
When we were first introducing ds1 to the idea of using the toilet, my mom used to ask if he wanted to go with her to the bathroom. She never insisted on it, and she certainly never had him wipe her, but I don't think that just going to the bathroom together is necessarily out of line.

However, I would absolutely be bothered by what your dd told her, and I would either make sure dd is not left alone with your MIL anymore, or address it outright with your MIL, and see what she says.

It's tough that your dh won't address it, but I'm afraid that just means that you have to do it.

I'm sorry - I know I would be pretty freaked out if I heard ds say this to me.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
Whoa.







I'm with Greaseball here.

You seem really upset and afraid about it, OP, and I think THAT is signal enough from your intuition.

If you haven't read Protecting The Gift yet, now would be a very very good time.









Yes, yes, Yes, Yes!!!!!!!!! Your gut is screaming out to you, listen to it & your child. And if you don't have the book, I will lend it to you, I can get it out in tomorrow's mail.

Amy


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

Here is our 6 year old ds perspective on this:

I asked him, "If you and Gran went to into the bathroom together, and she used the toilet and then asked you to wipe her, would you do it?"

Ds, "No! That's just too gross! Adults are supposed to wipe their own behinds! Yech, what if some of her poop got on my hands? I know we wash afterwards, but still..." and he walked off, shuddering.

An adult assisting a child with wiping is one thing, a child being asked to wipe an adult? *NO WAY!!*

Forget hard feelings (especially if your husband is being too weak to stand up for his own child), I would ask her outright if it is true, totally out of the blue. She'll be caught off-guard. Either she'll be as shocked as you (you know her well enough to judge whether she is faking), or she'll do some quick back-rowing on what she said/your daughter said/what she meant (yadda-yadda-yadda) and you'll know something is afoot.

For me, it's a no-brainer. No more unsupervised visits with mil.

Explain to your daughter that she can use the bathroom by herself from now on, but with the door OPEN. If she needs help, YOU help her.

And, when you are all together, and your daughter has to use the bathroom, you make sure it is completely clear that she goes by herself, and she has the door open. At her age, privacy IS being learned, but this is one case when that process should be put on hold for awhile longer. If she doesn't do a good job of wiping, deal with it *later*. No one died from having a bit of poop in their underwear.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think I would start limiting alone time with your mil. And explain to your dd that its not okay to touch someone else's genitals and that they shouldn't touch hers.


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## MotherEarthMom (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
Does it sound to anyone else like it does to me, that the dd was coached to "never tell anyone" this stuff, and forgot that she was never supposed to tell anyone?

I think so also,that DH was molested also and told to never tell.I wouldn't let DD go near this MIL anymore.And that is why DH is not confronting this.There is something wrong here.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I'm really disturbed by your MIL's actions, and your dd's reaction. She certainly sounds like she was coached not to say anything, but as 3yo's often do, she forgot. Go with your gut, forget about whether or not you have support. The most important thing is to be your childs support!


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Like most of us here, I can't stop thinking about this thread, or more importantly the real people involved.

I was reading some responses, and thinking just how different they would be if the OP came here and said that FIL wanted his granddaughter to help him wipe. I know there would be a lot of posts saying, "act now, question later" all along the lines of protecting your daughter, RIGHT NOW. But some of the responses are more calm, and I'm wondering what the difference is? Because I am thoroughly disgusted for the reasons other posters mentioned, and it would be really really hard not to press charges on my MIL or FIL. It wouldn't matter to me if the potential perp had a penis or a vulva.

Just some thoughts, my son is waking up, hope I made sense.j

Amy


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful responses. I can't tell you how much it has helped me to have a community where I could bring this concern in private.

I'm still befuddled by the situation. I feel certain that something inappropriate happened, but it could have been something relatively minor (like MIL saying, "Grammy's getting old and soon I won't be able to reach to wipe myself, and I'll need help") or it could have been what I fear most, that MIL made DD touch her.

My DH's reaction was not at all what I expected. I figured he'd be surprised and annoyed, and would offer to tell his mother to back off. Instead, he got a really strange, almost scared, look on his face, and told me we'd need to discuss the situation "later." We still haven't talked about it - I've brought it up several times and he's put it off. I now do fear that something happened to him when he was a child - either that or he's just so taken aback at this idea that he's at a complete loss.

The other thing that really bothers me is that my DD has had a potty accident every day this week, which is very unusual for her. She told me today that her bottom hurts or burns when she pees. I don't have a good feeling about this.

I'll be taking her to the pediatrician tomorrow to see if we can figure out what the problem is with the accidents, and also to see if my ped. has any further advice. I hope nothing worse has happened to my sweet little girl.









Thank you again for being there for me, mamas.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i hope everything turns out to be ok









of course, as a gavin de becker fan, i say act with your instincts. your dh's reaction is spooky.

suse


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Sorry you're going through this {{{HUGS}}}

Based on what you've said, I think it is WAYYYY overreacting to draw a conclusion that your MIL is a chronic molestor who also molested your DH. It is possible, but that is one end of a very long continuum of possibilities.

It seems that the best thing to do would be to get some guidance from someone outside the family (like a counselor) and approach your DD, once you have guidance on what questions to ask (you don't want to lead her into saying something happened that was worse than what really happened).

I hope this all turns out to be yet another strange quirk of your MIL.







My in-laws also have a strange obsession with bodily functions (for that matter, our whole culture seems to) and I find it odd and disgusting, but not inappropriate (at least not in the way we're talking about here).

I hope you find out what happened soon and get the whole situation resolved.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

either that or he's just so taken aback at this idea that he's at a complete loss.
Or maybe he's just embarassed that his mom could do something so weird.


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## lisahas2cats (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beth568*
My DH's reaction was not at all what I expected. I figured he'd be surprised and annoyed, and would offer to tell his mother to back off. Instead, he got a really strange, almost scared, look on his face, and told me we'd need to discuss the situation "later." We still haven't talked about it - I've brought it up several times and he's put it off. I now do fear that something happened to him when he was a child - either that or he's just so taken aback at this idea that he's at a complete loss.

The other thing that really bothers me is that my DD has had a potty accident every day this week, which is very unusual for her. She told me today that her bottom hurts or burns when she pees. I don't have a good feeling about this.


These two things make me very concerned that something happened.

As far as trying to get more information from your DD, I personally would stop asking her questions of any sort about the incident (and stay away from role-playing about "what happens at grandma's house) until you talk with her pediatrician. If something has indeed happened (and we all hope it has not), you don't want there to be accusations that you planted ideas in your DD's mind with leading questions (which can be a genuine concern, which is why investigators are trained in exactly how to ask children about molestation so they don't ask leading questions, kwim?).

I hope everything is okay.
Lisa


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

SO sorry you are going through this!!! How awful and scary to have to worry and wonder if your child was in an inappropriate situation...

I would make it my first priority to make sure that dd and mil were NEVER alone together, even if I was nearby. No them in the house and us in the yard type thing. Not worth the risk.

Second priority would be to pin your dh down and have a discussion about this. Could be he was abused by his mother - or could be that he is just embarrassed by her behavior, or worried that she is beginning alzheimers, or something else we haven't thought up yet.


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## Ary99 (Jan 1, 2002)

HI, I'm so sorry for what your family is going through. I disagree strongly however with attempting role play with her. You could inadvertantly lead her in a way that you are not even consciously aware of thus delving into the realm of "fantasy" rather than fact. Your daughter should be questioned by a trained professional who is educated on interviewing children and who does not have the emotional involvement. There has been a LOT of progress since the early nineties when it seemed every child who was interviewed was suddenly a victim of molestation where none had occured.

My cousin was concerned about her daughter recently when she made a strange comment regarding the husband of her caregiver. She went to a therapist who was able to determine with a reasonable certainty that she had not been molested.

Honestly, I have tried to rationalize your MIL's behavior as best I can, but I cannot think of any circumstance that her request, IF that's what happened (what if she just handed her the toilet paper? who knows), would be appropriate. If you simply avoid future one on one contact with her you will still always wonder what happened. And what could happen to other children she may come into contact with if she is indeed a danger to them.

Best of luck


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

No other comments, but just wanted you to know the whole community is here for you.

Good luck at the peds.


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## cks321 (Apr 26, 2005)

OMG! I just spent a LONG time reading all the posts here.







to you mama. And I wanted to offer something that hasn't been said yet. Children don't lie. At least not about something like that. I was in a not so similar situation about 2 years ago where my SIL had broken a window by "accident" and had to go to the hospital for stitches. Evidently it was no accident. While she was there her husband called me to watch his kids. L who was 3 at the time said when I asked what happened said " Mommy was mad because A (his baby sister) ate the grass that was in a bag. Oh wait. I was supposed to say it was an accydent" Hmmmmmm......let's just say it all ended nastily and when her hubby found out she's not getting even supervised visits. Kids don't know how to lie/keep a secret good at that age.
So no I don't buy that whole "No I forgot I didn't help" thing. This definately needs to be investigated further. And it could be nothing. But I did make L show me the "bag of grass" and it wasn't the kind that cow's eat.....so you never know. Good luck. I'm sending you good vibes.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

BTW- It sounds like your dd has a urinary tract infection. Frequence, urgency and burning are the main signs. UTI's are very common in little girls because they are learning to wipe themselves and sometimes wipe "forwards" causing e.coli to enter the urethra.

She may also have non-specific vaginitis, which is also common in little girls- why, I don't know, but it's rare day when me dd's "hoo-hoo" isn't red.

I'm not at all trying to downplay the seriousness of your sitch with your MIL, just informing you of the most likely culprits.

ITA with pp's talking about getting the situation assessed by a counselor.

Clearly your MIL has boundary issues that are making you uncomfortable, and it's fine to make some changes based on that- like no unsupervised visits or trips to bathroom together.

You owe it to your dd and yourself to get the situation assessed by someone impartial and experienced.


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

Hey mama! Just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you and your dd. Did you make it to the doc yet?


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Hugs mama, I hope all turns out ok! My heart pounded as I read your posts.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cks321*







OMG! I just spent a LONG time reading all the posts here.







to you mama. And I wanted to offer something that hasn't been said yet. Children don't lie. At least not about something like that. I was in a not so similar situation about 2 years ago where my SIL had broken a window by "accident" and had to go to the hospital for stitches. Evidently it was no accident. While she was there her husband called me to watch his kids. L who was 3 at the time said when I asked what happened said " Mommy was mad because A (his baby sister) ate the grass that was in a bag. Oh wait. I was supposed to say it was an accydent" Hmmmmmm......let's just say it all ended nastily and when her hubby found out she's not getting even supervised visits. Kids don't know how to lie/keep a secret good at that age.
So no I don't buy that whole "No I forgot I didn't help" thing. This definately needs to be investigated further. And it could be nothing. But I did make L show me the *"bag of grass" and it wasn't the kind that cow's eat*.....so you never know. Good luck. I'm sending you good vibes.









Thanks for clarifying. I was actually so confused--- why would someone be that mad over grass clippings?







:


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

We're here for you (and your family). Keep us updated as you can.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Checkin in.....please update us!


















How did the dr visit go?


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

I'm really startled by your situation, and my gut reacts just like your gut. Everyone has kind of examined the worst case scenario. But, since nobody knows what happened yet, what about a best case scenario of what could have happened:

Child and MIL go to the potty. Child asks for help wiping (messy poo or whatever). Child thinks that because child needs help wiping, MIL also needs help wiping and gets toilet paper and "attempts" to wipe MIL. MIL is weirded out, and says, "no, grown ups wipe themselves." Child announces to everyone "I helped grandma wipe!" MIL freaks again, and says, "no, remember you didn't help grandma wipe, grandma wipes herself."

That said, the worst case scenario, is very serious stuff. You can't worry about hurting someone's feelings when your child's health and well-being are at stake. Get to the bottom of the situation. If you already have a strained relationship with MIL, certainly, this won't "ruin" it, right?

Also, as far as child going to the potty with other adults... I don't see a big issue here. When we are visiting my parents, any female relative on the way to the bathroom offers to take DD along, because she is in a phase now where she forgets to go, and leaks on her panties before she can get to the potty. So we do frequent trips, reminder trips, and I'm going, why don't you go to trips. I don't see that as a big deal.

I hope that the worst case scenario is not what really happened. Hugs to you, and if there is a problem, you have got to force your dh to engage, and deal. Again, hugs, hugs, hugs. Keep us posted.


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Just a bump... Any news from the pediatrician?

Hope all is well, and it was just a misunderstanding.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Judi....I was thinking the exact same thing you posted...

Checking for an update....


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

and a bump. hoping no news is good news.


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## milk_maker (Jun 24, 2004)

fo you momma


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## Messac888 (Jan 24, 2005)

Another bump.

I hope all is well. Please, please let us know one way or another.

I trust my gut instincts- and that's why my kids have limited time with my mom these days.

Trust your instincts- I'd rather hurt an adult's feelings than not acknowledge what my kid may or may not be telling me. Fwiw.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
.....And to me "I forgot" sounds like the beginning of "I forgot I'm not supposed to tell you this." Not to worry you further, but that was my gut reaction.

That's what I was thinking too.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Just checking in.

We need a pacing smiley


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Hi, I am just piping in again hoping everything is okay and just reiterating what I said before about something not being right.

Grown adults don't ask children to wipe them. Sorry. Even if it were completely "innocent" I would completely not be letting my daughter alone with someone who did that.

It is the same thing as how we teach our children that grown adults won't ask a child to help them "look for their puppy"... they will ask another adult if they really need help ya know? In the rare case the person is making a bad judgement call and is completely innocent and you *happen* to hurt their feelings... oh well.

Grown adults should NOT be asking 3 year olds to "help" them do anything like that... even if it is legitimate ya know?

Trust your gut.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

I hope your DD is okay, and that your DH is just uncomfortable, and not guarding a painful secret of his own.









Your situation has been troubling me so much...
I hope you're getting some things figured out, and that's why we haven't heard from you for a while...

Thinking of you.

ramlah.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

Just another bump to say that I've been following this thread and am anxiously awaiting an update.







I hope everything is alright!


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## BklynJen (Mar 11, 2004)

Hi Beth,

Please give us an update when you can.







to you and your family!


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie29*
How is your MIL's physical health? Is there any possibility that your MIL has her own difficulties wiping herself - i.e., limited mobility, that sort of thing? I just thought I'd throw that out there. I still WOULDN'T approve of your DD being the one to help her with this, but I just wanted to suggest it in case home health care is something you need to look into.

I think I would be asking how is her mental health is at this point! That just sounds too bizarre to me and would definitely protect your DD at all costs.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Another mama wondering how things are going and how the ped visit went.......







to you and your family


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

hope things are going better.


















Amy


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Just wanted to chime in my support. I've been following this thread, read it all, and I have no idea what to say. I PRAY it is not how it seems. And I PRAY that your daughter is okay.


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## bandana (Jun 4, 2003)

Okay, now you've got me checking in. I just read this whole thread and I can't even process how I would feel in this situation.

Not that you need another opinion on the matter, but your DH _owes_ you the partnership of sitting down and talking to you about this. It is HIS mother, after all, and even if there is some weird reason it makes him uncomfortable, it's unfair to make you deal with it by yourself, especially when he might shed some light on the truth, whatever that may be. Here's to a good weekend for you, dear.


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## bizarrogirl (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I would end all unsupervised visits. I would also tell MIL no more bathroom buddy games. The safety of children should always come before the feelings of adults.

Exactly. There's NO reason to allow it, even if it is innocent, which seems questionable.

I'd be cutting solo time with Grandma, immediately.


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

Thank you SO much to everyone for your attention, support and concern. And I apologize for not posting an update sooner.

Short version: DD is OK, and won't be spending unsupervised time with MIL.

Longer version: our ped (who has some experience working with abused kids) had a long talk with me and then with DD, and feels that it's unlikely anything more than the "wiping" stuff occurred. She was of the opinion that MIL may in fact have asked DD to do it and that DD didn't go along with it, recognizing that it's not something she'd ever done for a grownup before. The ped thought DD seemed confused by the incident and by others' interest in it, so I've decided not to push her too far. We have not confronted MIL directly; haven't seen her in a few weeks, in fact, but have decided simply that DD won't be alone with her. If we are with MIL when our family visits her home, we will watch quite carefully to make sure they don't go off alone together, and there will be NO bathroom visits together. DH or I will take DD if she asks for help, or she'll go by herself, and that's it. If MIL asks why, then we will tell her about this and see what she says, but I'd expect her to deny it no matter what, especially if we bring it up in front of other people.

FWIW, DD has not brought this up again, and I have not addressed it with her. I did have a talk with her about the fact that it's never OK for someone other than a parent, doctor, or her teacher at school to be in the bathroom with her or touch her genitals, and that it is NEVER OK for a grownup to request that she touch that grownup's genitals. We told her that certain body parts are private, and that's that. She seemed to understand this.

Again, I must thank everyone for giving me a safe place to talk about this. I hope it's the end of the story...I'm a bit sad that we've lost the ability to trust MIL, but as I've said, I didn't have much faith in her to begin with.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

You probably already know this...but it's important to make sure she knows that SHE didn't do anything wrong and your concern is NOT her fault. She may feel ashamed and think it is something wrong with her.

Quote:

I did have a talk with her about the fact that it's never OK for someone other than a parent, doctor, or her teacher at school to be in the bathroom with her or touch her genitals, and that it is NEVER OK for a grownup to request that she touch that grownup's genitals. We told her that certain body parts are private, and that's that. She seemed to understand this.


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

Momtwice, thanks for pointing that out - I did work hard to try to make that clear to DD. I didn't discuss the privacy issue with her in the context of what happened with Grammy; actually, the issue came up very nicely at her preschool when the teacher asked parents to help kids understand that the school can't allow anyone other than a parent or teacher to help a child in the bathroom (some of the kids wanted friends' moms to take them).

But you're right - I was quite worried that, if we continued to press her on the MIL issue, she'd begin to think she (dd) had done something wrong.

It's hard to be a little kid.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Or a mom.


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## Kate522 (Jul 1, 2004)

Going to the potty with your MIL doesn't sound so bad to me. We have a pretty open door in our family, but the wiping the rear is way off. That made my stomach lurch. It's one thing to have company in the bathroom, it's another thing to touch a person's privates. That is just not okay.

I like the idea about stressing privacy and putting an end to the potty visits with grandma. I certainly wouldn't let her babysit. If you are out and about, and MIL needs to use the potty, you go to the public restroom too. It could get awkward, so rehearse what you are going to say to your MIL ahead of time. Think of her possible responses and then what you'd say to that. And I agree with the others, your daughter is more important than your MIL's feelings.
Good Luck.


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## vegetalien (May 28, 2005)

hi,
i'm sorry i'm coming in late on this. i was going to post that i didn't think going to the bathroom with your daughter, per se, is inappropriate (i know my MIL has gone in front of my 2 and half year old. while he was taking a bath or something like that....although she certainly doesn't insist that he come along each time either).

but i did just read your last post and i think there's nothing very confrontational about telling her (if it does come up) that now that your DD is older you don't feel it's appropriate for your MIL to bring her to the washroom when she needs to go. or you can simply say that it makes you feel uncomfortable.

i couldn't help but notice that you said this to your daughter: "that it's never OK for someone other than a parent, doctor, or her teacher at school to be in the bathroom with her or touch her genitals". i totally agree that it's important to have this chat with her, but you basically said it's ok for her teacher to touch her genitals!! i think talking about context is very important. also, when i worked as a camp counsellor one summer it was a strict policy that someone had to keep the public washroom door wide open at all times while another counsellor was inside with a child.
i guess that sentence just made my eyebrows rise a bit because there have been LOTS of cases where daycare workers have abused little kids and unless there is a diaper change or messy accident to clean up, there is no reason why they should be touching her genitals.

i'm glad you've sorted everything out though. i can't imagine how panicky i would get in the same situation!


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

I've been thinking about your situation. I wanted a little time before I posted because I felt strongly, but I still feel strongly about this so I'm telling you how i feel.

Your MIL is acting very strangly. Having a child wipe her? Yuck! Eeeew! Gross! I have NEVER heard of anyhting like that. Insisting that she go with her every time SHE uses the bathroom? Very suspicious. Why on earth would you let this continue? If you don't trust your MIL there is a very good reason why, and if you are present, it should be you and DH taking your child to the restroom. I would NEVER allow MIL to take my kids to the bathroom just because she had to go. It smells of abuse, and would not be allowed. Ever.


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beth568*
I did have a talk with her about the fact that it's never OK for someone other than a parent, doctor, or her teacher at school to be in the bathroom with her or touch her genitals, and that it is NEVER OK for a grownup to request that she touch that grownup's genitals. We told her that certain body parts are private, and that's that. She seemed to understand this.
.


most abuse to children happens by someone they know, even a doctor can abuse a child, and i was abused by family members, when i have kids iw ill say something sorta like what you said but more specific i will say if anyone even me or daddy or anyone at all touches her, in a way that makes her uncomfortable she needs to tell me and daddy and other grownups, and if it was me or daddy she has tot ell someone else, now i know i will never ever hurt my child or touch my child in any abusive way, but i want my kid to know and understand that it doesn't matter who it is she or he needs to tell someone about it, and not just genitals sexual abuse can happen with other parts of the body being tocuhed, and it can happen with no touching at all, my step father sexually abused me from the time i was 5 till the day i left home at 19, he never touched my genitals, he never did anything as blatent as that and so i thought the things he did where ok, it wasn't until i left home and started mentioning things to other people that i started to realize he has been abusing me, my brother blatently abused me, i knew what he had done was abuse, and he was an older sibling, 8 years older, when i was a baby i took bathes with him when i was a kid i shared a bedroom

ok sorry, i am rambling, just touched a nerve cuz so many people i know where abused by teachers and some where abused by doctors and most people i know who where abused itw as by parents


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Glad things seem ok.


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee*







Glad things seem ok.

Where did you get this? Did I miss her post?


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

I can't read all the replys right now, but I'd stop all unsupervised interaction & confront MIL about it face to face without DD there. That's a bad one. Good luck.


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## tug (Jun 16, 2003)

in post no. 77, she says dd is ok and gives her plan of action for the future.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I am glad things are ok and you are confident in your plan. I just wanted to second NOT trying role play or doll play if you don't know what you're doing. While I agree children do not "lie," they can very easily be led to say all kinds of things and you might not even realise you're leading. This happens all the time and innocent people suffer because of our very real concern that innocent children do not suffer abuse.

I also agree that going to the bathroom or whatever (depending on your culture, too, like family baths) isn't necessarily a problem. The problem is it's something *you* are uncomfortable with, it doesn't add up to you, and you don't need any other reason besides that. I give you credit for not completely freaking out, as I probably would in such a situation. Your dc is probably just fine and you are quite right to do whatever you think best to prevent this happening again.

However, if you really do think there is something not right with your MIL and small children, do you think you need to keep an eye on things for, say, other children in the family? What does your dh think about it, or are you still unsure of his reaction?


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