# Spirtuality question



## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

My second son died shortly after his birth a little over two years ago. He was perfect and we miss him terribly.

My question stems from a recent email I received from a friend. She asked for prayers for a young child who is dying. Her own child has health issues and she said the struggle this family is going through puts it all in perspective for her and God had been good to her family.

This has to be one of my DH's biggest pet peeves - when someone says something like "Thank God, he saved my brother." He hears them saying that God didn't save our son. Or, as my friend said God has been good to them, does that mean he's not good to us?

If you're religious/spiritual what are your thoughts? Also, should I say anything to her about it??? If I should what should it be?

I'm still on the journey to figuring it out and I think I'm at a point where I realize I won't be able to figure it all out.


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

I don't really have any advice with regards to your friend's email. I just wanted to say that I *really* struggle with my spirituality now too.

I hear pretty much the same message as your husband when someone asks for prayer. I don't say what I really think which is that my prayers are toxic and the only answers I have had recently are "No"s and I'm starting to feel like I'm not God's favourite person. I would say that I haven't given up on God exactly as a result of Emma's death but I sometimes feel like He gave up on me.

And then I'm torn because I've been able to have another baby since Emma and I don't know where he fits into my faith struggles. I know I have resisted having any sort of thanksgiving/ christening for him because I AM thankful ... very, very thankful for him (and my two older children too) but I can't say "thank you" to God for him (implying that I believe God is directly responsible for his safe arrival) without wondering why - as you say - God didn't bless us with Emma's safe arrival too.

Sometimes I think I'm making some headway with this - that I'm learning to live with the doubt and find some peace with my faith but then something stirs it all up again and I realise that I'm on the same journey as you and recognising that there probably isn't any sense to be made of it.

Sorry, not much help there was I?


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

I am Catholic and I HATE when people presume that "God saved me from cancer" or "God answered my prayers". I can't interpret it any other way than thinking "I am a better Christian, thus I deserved this." There is so much suffering in this world, experienced by good, holy people and by people who aren't so good too. There is no explanation for it, no sense in who is saved from pain. If I believe that God saves people who pray harder, then God just seems as petty and uncaring as any human could be. Instead, I choose to believe that God loves everyone and suffering is, sadly, part of the human experience. Prayer and spirituality can give some comfort and a sense of peace during grieving, especially beliefs about the afterlife, but I as a mere human don't expect to get any answers about why bad things happen.

If the email was a general 'call for prayers' sent to a few different people, I would probably just roll my eyes and delete. If it was individually sent to you, I might write to my friend and tell her how hurtful her words sound to you, using a lot of I-statements. I'm sure she says these things with the best of intentions--not to hurt you at all. But if it's a common theme in your friendship, you should probably let her know how it's making you feel.


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## jtrt (Feb 25, 2009)

I struggle with this, too, in regards to Edelweiss arriving safely. Were we "blessed" to have this baby? If so, were we also "cursed" to lose the three babies that preceded her? In my mind and heart, the two options cannot coexist.

A friend framed it beautifully by referring to a rainbow baby's arrival as a "season." Instead of saying, "Congrats! You are so blessed!" or " God blessed us with blah blah blah," she says, "I'm so happy it is your season to rejoice in a new baby." or "We are so thankful it is our season to rejoice." For some reason, this works for me. There is no implied choosing by God or any other entity. No one is the winner and no one is better or chosen or protected or preferred. Sometimes, we are the recipients of goodness and gladness and sometimes we are the ones with empty arms and broken hearts. That is just the way it is and leaving God out of it is comfortable for me.

I hope I have done the concept justice.

Amy


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

I have been struggling with this so much as well. The only way I can reconcile it is that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike and, like la mamita said, suffering is part of the human experience. Amy, the season thing really makes sense; it is much nicer to think about it that way.

I am sorry that your friends words hurt you. I think what she means is just that she feels really lucky to have her child and she has no idea that her words are indicating something much deeper than that or that they could possibly hurt you. I know before I lost my babies I didn't think the same as I do now; I didn't even understand why the word miscarriage bothered women. I know that doesn't help the sting of pain you feel when someone says something hurtful but in the long run it makes the difference between a relationship that can be saved and one that isn't worth it. She doesn't seem to have meant to hurt you (from what you said) so I would say something to her gently and see how she reacts. Like la mamita said, use a lot of "I" statements.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:


> Her own child has health issues and she said the struggle this family is going through puts it all in perspective for her and God had been good to her family.


 As someone who has said something similar, and who believes it...

It makes me sad to see people take that as a personal insult. I have never seen anybody say this as anything other than a personal statement about their own life, not to be taken as an implication about someone else's life. The fact that she said this in the middle of something difficult like that makes me think it is probably coming from that place, rather than a "look at me, God loves me more" place. To me, it's like someone saying "My husband is so loving and romantic" and me getting mad because I take them to mean that *my* husband just doesn't measure up. I know they don't mean that when they say something like that, and that it's really not about me or my husband or my life at all, just something they're expressing out of their own experience in their own life.

From my perspective KristaDJ used the phrase I immediately thought of. The rain falls and makes fields grow, no matter who the farmer is, and likewise drought affects those who believe a particular way, and those who don't. In that way we all experience both the fallen nature of the world (suffering and illness), and the blessings of God (growing, healing, good things). Looking back on the year that I lost my two babies, I can say God has been good to me, even in those hard things. "Being blessed" doesn't mean everything is easy and peachy and perfect, and it doesn't mean that I am superior or more deserving of good things, either. It is an expression of thankfullness for those good things in my life, and a specific expression of my faith that good or bad (in my human assessment of things), all of these things are leading toward an ultimate, eternal healing in the end. There are occasional stories of miraculous happenings, but IMO, when people think God does these things because they deserve them or they're "more blessed", they've departed from orthodox teachings of the faith.

When dh was driving me home after my first miscarriage, we turned on the radio and a song was playing that seared into my heart, and it has become somethign that I sing (usually just in my head) almost daily. Some of the lyrics are:

Blessed be Your name
When the sun's shining down on me
When the world's 'all as it should be'
Blessed be Your name

Blessed be Your name
On the road marked with suffering
Though there's pain in the offering
Blessed be Your name

Every blessing You pour out
I'll turn back to praise
When the darkness closes in, Lord
Still I will say

Blessed be the name of the Lord

The song was prompted by Job 1:21, and is really a much more eloquent expression of what I mean when I say "I am blessed" or "God is good to me".


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## mom-to-jj (Sep 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheshire*
> 
> My second son died shortly after his birth a little over two years ago. He was perfect and we miss him terribly.
> 
> ...


I'm very sorry for your loss. My own losses were as difficult spiritually as they were emotionally and physically. I echo what others have said that because we live in an imperfect world--a world in which humankind introduced sin and thus affected the rest of humanity--bad things are always going to happen, even to good people. I believe that life is generally filled with blessings and joy (evidence of God's overall goodness), and the only reason we recognize times of suffering is that we have a basis of comparison. Does that make sense? If my life was nothing but grief and sorrow and pain, but once in a while something great happened, I would notice the great thing more because it would stand out against my backdrop of pain.

One of the Psalms talks about God collecting all our tears in a bottle and recording each one in his book. I took comfort in knowing that even though he didn't answer my prayers for a healthy baby this time, it didn't mean he does not care about me. When my kids are hurt, I hover over them. I hold them when they cry, and I put Band-Aids on their owies. God didn't promise us that bad things won't happen, only that he would always be there, hovering over us, looking forward to the day when the power of sin in the world will be destroyed once and for all, and he will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain.

I'm sure we'll never know on this earth why there are times when he seems to intervene on our behalf, even for the most inconsequential things, and then not act when mothers with breaking hearts ask him to spare the life of a child. I do know my babies are in heaven, and I will meet them someday. And I do know that God's plan for my life is for good. My feelings will always lie to me. Yes, I feel like heaven is made of rubber, and all my prayers are bouncing back right now. But that's just how I feel, and I know it's not reality.

As far as a reply, I would personally let it go. It doesn't seem to be something that was directed at you or to compare anyone's life situations. It seems to me to be a simple statement of faith, that she's thankful for what she has despite her own struggles.

Hugs and healing to you and your husband.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fireflyforever*
> 
> I don't really have any advice with regards to your friend's email. I just wanted to say that I *really* struggle with my spirituality now too.
> 
> I hear pretty much the same message as your husband when someone asks for prayer. I don't say what I really think which is that my prayers are toxic and the only answers I have had recently are "No"s and I'm starting to feel like I'm not God's favourite person.


I'm so sorry. I feel EXACTLY the same way about my prayers being toxic. Exactly. And I'm a minister's wife who is expected to pray for others at the altar. Some Sundays I grab my husband's arm and whisper that he needs to pray instead of me (we're up there as a couple, but I'm supposed to pray for the women who come forward) because I just don't feel I can drum up enough faith at the moment to pray for someone else's need when there is a black hole in my heart.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

Can I say that this thread makes me feel normal & that is a good thing. I thought when my dd3 arrived, things would be different. Instead, there is this giant spiritual cavern that seems to be widening as time passes & my son seems farther and farther away from me. I know who God is, I know his promises for us are eternal not temporal, I know who he is. My heart is broken. I almost feel like I'm killing time until eternity. And people who say things like "God has been good to my family" or "our prayers were heard" or "we are blessed because he/she was healed" just seem stupid and naive to me.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Well, I was pretty agnostic before my losses. Having folks tell me my losses were "god's will" made me angry and bitter. I think I've swung even more into the non-believer side of things because of my losses.

And you know what? My life has been so much better since I dropped all that from my life. I've made a whole new family of friends who get "me".. not some deity. And my subsequent children have never known the negativity that comes with that message. Finally, I've bloomed after my hardships.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I want to be clear that I am not snarking at all. I'm genuinely asking...do you all not think that perhaps someone who has experienced loss and found comfort in faith might find some of the comments here just as hurtful and insulting as the OP found that comment, most especially since the "blessed" comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically, but a number of things said here are directly aimed at people who do reach for their faith in the midst of hurt?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I think that its clear that some of the folks here are not having their faith work for them or giving them comfort.
















I'm telling them is okay to drop it. Or re-evaluate the faith status in your life. Sometimes a person's faith becomes a bad habit that you can't drop. I'm telling them its okay to drop it. Even if its not forever.. maybe take a break from it. There's no need to keep going through the motions if it gives you no peace. And really, I'm here to say, life goes on. In my case, it goes on well.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I wasn't picking on your post in particular.

Just that there have been some very judgemental comments about those for whom faith is an important part of this. *If* the comment the OP is concerned about is judgmental and wrong, doesn't that work both ways?

(I don't think it is because I don't interpret it as a comment on anyone else's life, and I didn't interpret your post that way either)


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I'm really just asking why someone saying "I'm blessed" is so horribly offensive, but saying that someone feeling that way is naive (or worse), or irritating, or mean, is OK.

Can we not support each other without tearing others down? That really makes me sad. We all have different experiences, and different responses to this. Feeling at a loss spiritually is one way that's common and normal. But if someone has another experience, that doesn't mean they feel "superior" or need to be shredded for it.


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *jtrt* A friend framed it beautifully by referring to a rainbow baby's arrival as a "season." Instead of saying, "Congrats! You are so blessed!" or " God blessed us with blah blah blah," she says, "I'm so happy it is your season to rejoice in a new baby." or "We are so thankful it is our season to rejoice." For some reason, this works for me. There is no implied choosing by God or any other entity. No one is the winner and no one is better or chosen or protected or preferred. Sometimes, we are the recipients of goodness and gladness and sometimes we are the ones with empty arms and broken hearts. That is just the way it is and leaving God out of it is comfortable for me.
> 
> I hope I have done the concept justice.
> 
> Amy


That is an incredibly helpful way to look at it. Thank you.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* Blessed be Your name
> 
> When the sun's shining down on me
> When the world's 'all as it should be'
> ...


That song was very significant to me during my pregnancy with Emma - I listened to it almost daily. I have written before about certain "intuitions" I had through my pregnancy that I might not keep my baby at the end if it - this was one of them.

Thank you for sharing it - and reminding me of it. It's a beautiful song.

Cheshire - sorry to hijack your thread for a moment.


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## Milk8shake (Aug 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheshire*
> 
> Her own child has health issues and she said the struggle this family is going through puts it all in perspective for her and God had been good to her family.
> 
> If you're religious/spiritual what are your thoughts? Also, should I say anything to her about it??? If I should what should it be?


First, I would say that she probably meant no offence. I don't think this is in the same vein as the "blessed" comments, I think she is purely just being thankful that her own child is not dying.

I would be inclined not to say anything to her in this case, if this was bulk email. If it was a one-to-one email and she knows that you are not on the same 'spiritual' wavelength as her, then you could mention it - but personally, I probably still wouldn't.

Second, I wouldn't say I'm religious. I was raised a Christian, and went to church until I was 15 or so. I guess I sort of believe in God, but never really felt like it 'clicked' for me.

Since my losses, and struggle for understanding, (and at my Mother's urging) I have tried going back to church. I've tried a couple of bible studies. I feel like I would love to have some soft of 'faith' as a comfort, and to bring hope, and possibly acceptance. I know my Mum has this kind of peace.

I haven't been successful. All I succeeded in doing, was making myself feel worse. I think there are a lot of connotations that if you pray harder, live better, give more, then you are a better Christian, and therefore more deserving. I hate "If it is God's will, then you will have a child". Always said by someone who already has a child, (usually several) mind you.

I get that people believe that God is not 'of this Earth' and therefore we can't understand his wisdom, etc. But, I find it really difficult to reconcile the things that have happened, not only in my life, but in the life of people I care about, with some sort of divine purpose.

The thought of facing my life, with the potential of further losses, and little to no hope for a child of my own, breaks my heart, and the thought that this future is "God's plan for me" stings like a SOB.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Thanks, everyone, for your replies. In the two years since our son died I've seen numerous posts on spirituality and the many ways loss affects our beliefs.

Just to follow up on a few ideas - in the midst of our son's death and in the two years since the one thing that has been a constant for me is God. He has provided enormous peace in my life. He didn't save my son though I begged him to. My son suffered horribly and He didn't fix it. I struggle with His choice not to intervene. Does He really intervene and if so, why? Even with all of my questions the one thing I've had through this primal grief is His love and peace. Many of the other things I've learned in church are in limbo and I have just a tiny grasp left but I pray to God not to let go of my hand because I feel Him and His love. In my deepest pain when I didn't think I would take it anymore I would ask him to take it for me and He would. I will always remember that.

Before our son died I had on the rose colored glasses. I prayed for protection for my family, etc. Now, I struggle with that and my prayers are different.

I don't believe my friend was in any way trying to insult or hurt others or me. I just wonder if she realizes how it can sound to one whose most desperate prayer wasn't answered. Or, how it can sound to a family who has lost or is losing a child to say "whew, we thought we had it bad, look at how awful things are for them." My DH has a friend at work who, for him, we are his worst nightmare. Their second son was born weeks before our son. He looks at us and feels pity. I'm guilty of having done the same thing before our son died. I used to be grateful I wasn't in another person's shoes, ya know?

Now, I work my hardest not to feel that way and I work my hardest to remind myself that every single person has quiet, personal struggles and we all need compassion. I can never know what others have gone through.

Don't take it as an attack against religion. An example - during a meeting at work a coworker of my DH's actually said "God doesn't let bad things happen to good people." Well, the majority of us know that's not true. And, I have a feeling, nothing that bad has happened to the person who said it. Would he still believe that if something tragic happened in his life? It sounds very naive to me. And, when someone says in response to someone else's suffering "God's been so good to us" with the implied statement being "when He's letting this awful stuff happen to XYZ family." I know my friend and I know that's not what she meant but it doesn't mean I don't hear it that way. I doubt if she even understands it could ever be "heard" that way. I guess part of human nature is to "knock on wood" when we see bad things happen to others, to be thankful it's not us. I've come to question that these last two years - I don't think it really matters.

On this journey my faith has strengthened while at the same time it has completely unraveled. I guess maybe I could compare it to the refining of precious metals. We'll see where I end up when it is all said and done.

One thing I do know - no matter which direction one takes after a loss there is one universal and that is we are forever changed and our outlook on life is forever different. It is nice to be able to express it here and to find out how others have responded to this grief.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)




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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Hmm, I was speaking to my personal experience only about the guilt and baggage bits.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)




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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

And to be fair, people placing their religion on folks who don't want or need it can also sting. As myself and other loss mamas can attest to.

Don't try to nitpick this into a hating thing. It's not.

I did go back and edit my post a bit, just to show that I'm not trying hurt anyone.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)




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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> I want to be clear that I am not snarking at all. I'm genuinely asking...do you all not think that perhaps someone who has experienced loss and found comfort in faith might find some of the comments here just as hurtful and insulting as the OP found that comment, most especially since the "blessed" comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically, but a number of things said here are directly aimed at people who do reach for their faith in the midst of hurt?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> I wasn't picking on your post in particular.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> I'm really just asking why someone saying "I'm blessed" is so horribly offensive, but saying that someone feeling that way is naive (or worse), or irritating, or mean, is OK.
> 
> Can we not support each other without tearing others down? That really makes me sad. We all have different experiences, and different responses to this. Feeling at a loss spiritually is one way that's common and normal. But if someone has another experience, that doesn't mean they feel "superior" or need to be shredded for it.


I think your posts are possibly referencing mine, so in the similar "non-snark" vein.... (and I'd put a friendly smiley here if only I knew where all the smileys had gone)

I have found deep profound comfort in my Christian faith. Absolutely. I wouldn't be where I am today without it.

My loss hasn't changed who God is. It has changed my perception of God, my preconceived notions of Him & His promises for us. I'm not re-evaluating Him; I'm re-evaluating me.

My comment about people being naive or seeming stupid again are more about me then other people. I hear myself in their words, knowing I'd said the exact same thing before & I just didn't know, couldn't comprehend the depth of pain that lay ahead or the brutal truth that really crappy things happen to good people for no easily apparent reason at all.

In my head I don't believe that God makes mistakes. I know that to be true. In my heart it still doesn't make sense or seem fair. That is just me being honest.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Thank you for clarifying.


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## Lillbjorne (Aug 28, 2009)

Maybe my loss is still too raw to be objective, but I feel as though I can't view God as being as intimately involved with us as I once thought he was, so my view of who God is and how he worked needs to be re-evaluated. I do believe that "God is good", but I don't understand how that works.

It seems to me that we are living in a very broken world.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

OP, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Here's how I look at it. I believe in God as a source of strength and inspiration, but not as a force with power to intervene in human affairs. If someone else feels that God is personally blessing her and gets comfort from that, good for her. But a statement like that would affect me more on a "that was thoughtless" level than on a spiritual level, since I don't believe God has the power to prevent a baby from dying.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

you took the words right out of my mouth. it also feels off when i hear things like this. someone i know -her hubby just got cleared of cancer and someone posted on her facebook "god is in the prayer answering business!" um, really?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> OP, I'm so sorry for your loss.
> 
> Here's how I look at it. I believe in God as a source of strength and inspiration, but not as a force with power to intervene in human affairs. If someone else feels that God is personally blessing her and gets comfort from that, good for her. But a statement like that would affect me more on a "that was thoughtless" level than on a spiritual level, since I don't believe God has the power to prevent a baby from dying.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

We are not religious. We left Christianity before Duncan died. DH is an [agnostic] apatheist and I'm spiritual in the pantheistic sense (Eastern philosophies). We never, ever considered returning to 'faith' in a personified, anthropomorphic deity that intervenes in human affairs and answers wishes/prayers. That concept of deity/deities makes no sense to us. I never prayed or asked why or sought answers. I never became bitter or angry. I came to peace with his death early on. The only reason I get irritated with the sort of statements mentioned by others is because they're arrogant and presumptuous. These statements assume the individual on the receiving end finds comfort in these trite sayings and believes in the gods they are referring to. Not everyone is Christian. Not everyone believes in Yahweh, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Not everyone finds comfort in Western religion and words of comfort with Christian overtones. For some they just don't register as anything but arrogant and off-putting. The "will of Yahweh/Yeshua" and there being a purpose behind what happens just doesn't register with me. I'd have to first believe these deities exist in order to find them relevant. I just don't like people assuming everyone finds comfort in the same things or that everyone returns to Western religion in a time of loss and tragedy. My father was hoping and thinking we would "see the Light" after losing Duncan. He was so sure we'd come back. Nope. We're perfectly content with our chosen paths. I find a lot of comfort and peace in Eastern and pantheistic/monistic philosophies.


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## accountkilled (Jan 20, 2010)

ADMIN - Please delete my threads and profile due to domestic violence, online stalking/harassment/hacking. Thank you.


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## lollie2357 (Feb 18, 2008)

I haven't taken the time to read everything here, but I have been thinking about theses things too.

I know that God is good to me, even though my baby died. I never would have thought about how I said things to others if I hadn't lost a baby though. ` They just don't understand.

Though I am sad, and the loss is terrible, God is still good because He holds my baby in heaven when I can't.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Ok um. Ignoring the drama since most of it got deleted anyways but.

My thoughts on the matter is that sometimes bad things happen to good people. It's just a result of orginal sin. We cannot know WHY all these things happen. But God has a plan. He works all things for our good. After my first loss I was increasingly bitter about it all. After this one, I feel like I see the bigger picture. I don't know WHY I was chosen to go through this pain twice. But I was. So I'm handling it in the most healthy way I know how. Not displacing my pain onto other things/people.

I'm reminded of this poem. It comforts me a lot.

The Weaver

My life is but a weaving,
between my God and me,
I do not choose the colors,
He worketh steadily.
Ofttimes he weaveth sorrow,
and I in foolish pride
Forget He sees the upper,
and I the underside.

Not till the loom is silent,
and the shuttles cease to fly,
Will God unroll the canvas,
and explain the reasons why
The dark threads are as needful
in the skillful weaver's hand
As threads of gold and silver
in the pattern He has planned.


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## accountkilled (Jan 20, 2010)

ADMIN - Please delete my threads and profile due to domestic violence, online stalking/harassment/hacking. Thank you.


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## donnamr3211 (Aug 12, 2006)

http://www.intouch.org/resources/article-archive/content/topic/hope_for_the_hopeless


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Ah, more proselytizing.

How about we offer support and kindness and leave religion out of the loss forums?


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

I don't think anyone is trying to convert anybody, just sharing what helps them.

As for me, coming back to this old thread, everything has turned around entirely. I no longer believe in the christian god and it has brought me much relief. I have struggled through my losses to make it make sense but it just doesn't. I still believe that there is something more than what we see with our eyes but I sure don't believe I know what that is. I do feel like, for me, my losses were something I brought into my life to experience. I have peace with it now and no more struggling to understand.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Ah, more proselytizing.
> 
> How about we offer support and kindness and leave religion out of the loss forums?


Bears repeating.


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