# I am just at a loss.



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

19 yo ds is living in the basement and does nothing but play WoW. He has done NOTHING for the past year. He had to start paying rent in Feb and still isn't working. He's also started smoking (takes the butts of cigars that dh and I sometimes smoke and uses them in a pipe) and does chores for me when he wants smoke money (now that I've caught on to that one it's stopping), but other than that he never moves his butt. His WoW subscription runs out in 14 days and I just know he's going to try and finagle a deal with me or dh to get $$ for it again.

Please, I need strength to deal with him. To say NO, to put up with his anger when I bug him to get his a$$ out of bed, to get him out the door and GET A JOB. The doc prescribed antidepressants but he isn't taking them - he actually doesn't seem unhappy (why would he be - he's doing what every one of us can only dream about - coasting through life with someone else paying for everything).

I also think he lies about going out to put applications in just to keep me off his back but I have no proof. He sleeps all day and is up all night. He says he wants me to bug him, and I do. I call him when I get up, then 4 or 5 more times before I leave for work. I turn the light on in his face (he freaks). Same thing when I'm home for lunch. I offer to drive him places after work to put resumes in. I buy him bis tickets so he can go and job hunt. I've always thought that providing kids with the opportunity and resources would be enough - well, not for him apparently.

How can I make him need to get out the door and get a job?


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

This may be extremely unpopular - but this was me at 19, simply replace WoW with drinking/partying... and my parents kicked me out. As in, literally packed my stuff in bags and boxes and put it in the front yard. Now, it was summer and I knew it was coming.

Talk about a wake up call.







I slept on a friend's couch for a bit, got my act together, went back to school, etc.

Now I'm an RN, have two children, own my own home, etc. It was the best thing my parents could have done. My mother is my best friend in the whole world and we literally die laughing sometimes about what a wretch I was at that age... and that wasn't even ten years ago.

ETA - I too had no emotional/mental health issues. I was just lazy and enjoying the free ride... I could have lived at home indefinitely if I was working/going to school/volunteering/something...


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Except for the WoW addiction, and the fact that I don't have a basement.. I can totally see this happening to my daughter.

I have no wisdom. (obviously) But, I will watch this thread for ideas/advice.

On a side note, I have quite a few friends going through a divorce right now because of WoW. I'm amazed that a computer game can destroy lives. How does that happen?


----------



## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

You can gain the strength by realizing you are enabling him. You have spent your whole life raising this young man to be the best man he can be and by allowing this behavior, you are undoing every ounce of mental and physical work you have put into raising him. YOU HAVE TO TELL YOURSELF THIS!
Take a step outside this situation and ask yourself what advice you would give a poster in this situation. He is going to keep freeloading as long as you let him. Be stern mom.....be stern because you love him. Make rules, give deadlines...etc. Sometime motivation is hard to come by at 19 lol, but you have to enforce the behavior that you wish him to have as a young man, a husband, a father. You think it's difficult to deal with his anger and grumpyness now...just think how it's going to be 5 years from now when the girl he meets on WoW moves in with him in your basement.







Your firm boundaries in this situation will make him realize one day just how much you love him.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Don't pay for his WoW subscription. Remove internet access. Get rid of cable. Stop providing free food. Stop driving him around. Stop making it attractive to laze around at home.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Don't pay for his WoW subscription. Remove internet access. Get rid of cable. Stop providing free food. Stop driving him around. Stop making it attractive to laze around at home.


I'm thinking, if the only reason she wouldn't get a job and move out was my internet access, I'd cancel the internet AND the cable. I'd rather live without it than have my child become a freeloader.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
On a side note, I have quite a few friends going through a divorce right now because of WoW. I'm amazed that a computer game can destroy lives. How does that happen?

I'm intrigued by WoW and the other RPG - but I have an extremely addictive personallity and have been warned by many people (including some friends who play) to avoid it, for that very reason.

Still.resisting...









Seriously though, my parents did all that - cut cable, stopped driving me around, stopped giving me money. It made it much easier to make me move out - I wasn't happy at home anymore anyway!


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
On a side note, I have quite a few friends going through a divorce right now because of WoW. I'm amazed that a computer game can destroy lives. How does that happen?

Yeah, my husband has a WoW addiction and has for 3 years when his boss introduced him to the game. It is a serious problem in our marriage.







:


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

He doesn't sound that bad







:

Seriously - he is not addicted to drugs, hanging out with criminals or being abusive. He is simply coasting a bit. He is 19, not 35. Coasting is OK.

I think early adulthood can be difficult for some people. There is a lot of pressure to get a job, go to school, do something - and it can be hard on people who do not know what they want (or - they do know what they want (WOW), but it is not acceptable to those who love them). My youngest sister struggled with coasting during early adulthood - she did come out of it - but not until she was about 23.

I would probably pay for the next batch of WOW. After that I would ask him to come up with half the cost, and then, perhaps, the whole thing. I think it is often easier (and perhaps healthier) for children and young adults to be slowly weaned of financial "help". I say this as someone who's mommy _did_ pay for her Cable TV at 19 - and yet I have been completely financially independant for many years now.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I was/ am a WoW addict. I have been "clean" for about a month now and was semi-clean for the year before that, and deeply addicted for two years before that. It didn't destroy my life but I can see how it could have... anyway I guarantee that if you can get WoW (and all other VG/ MMOs) out of his life he will wake up.


----------



## amynbebes (Aug 28, 2008)

You just described my ex dh to the tee, down to fake applications, only he's 32. Heck, he went as far as to have his mom drive him to a fake job for weeks until she came home early one day and found him there. Unfortunately I think a situation like this is going to require tough love. Please don't allow him to continue to use you and the situation. I see how much it hurts my ex mil and here she's stuck with him home again and treated so poorly by him. I think it's ultimatum time for your ds and if he doesn't meet the requirements within a certain time limit then you need to move him out.


----------



## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
*Stop making it attractive to laze around at home.*

THAT.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Coasting is OK.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the above.

Coasting with a NEAR future plan *might* be OK - like, kid graduates from HS, takes a break for a month, then gets a job/goes to college, whatever.

Just plain open-ended freeloading, though? Unh-uh.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I don't think coasting for that long is a good idea AT ALL.

He's at an age where it would be best to help cut bad habits before they get even more ingrained. The more "normal" the sleeping all night, playing too much WoW (dang that game seems to be ruining families....it's really weird), and bumming smoke $ is, the more likely that he will want (and expect) things to be this way.

Sorry, but I highly doubt he will change on his own, and if there is a time to be firm it is now.

I'm a pretty laid-back parent who is leaning towards unschooling, but sometimes I do believe a kid can thrive best with a parent-imposed boundary.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spero* 
I wholeheartedly disagree with the above.

Coasting with a NEAR future plan *might* be OK - like, kid graduates from HS, takes a break for a month, then gets a job/goes to college, whatever.

Just plain open-ended freeloading, though? Unh-uh.

Agreed - at sixteen, maybe. To me - nineteen is an adult.


----------



## tug (Jun 16, 2003)

I would just say this, before you start trying "tough love," consider reading "live through this" by debra gwartney. it's about a mother who becomes estranged from her daughters and they become more and more wild. she tries the tough love approach because people expect her to and it backfires in a really big way. it's a true story and she does a lot of thinking about why she reacted to things the way she did and how she might have reacted more helpfully to what her daughters were feeling. i'm not saying that cutting everything off would make your son wild or anything, i just think that people imagine tough love to be a panacea, where in some situations, with some kids, it can make things worse than a little forgiveness and love might.

and if you don't feel like reading the book, there is also a "this american life" episode that features this family. i think it's called "i didn't ask to be born." i found it heartbreakening but also enlightening. and it has a happy ending (as does the book)


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tug* 
I would just say this, before you start trying "tough love," consider reading "live through this" by debra gwartney. it's about a mother who becomes estranged from her daughters and they become more and more wild. she tries the tough love approach because people expect her to and it backfires in a really big way. it's a true story and she does a lot of thinking about why she reacted to things the way she did and how she might have reacted more helpfully to what her daughters were feeling. i'm not saying that cutting everything off would make your son wild or anything, i just think that people imagine tough love to be a panacea, where in some situations, with some kids, it can make things worse than a little forgiveness and love might.

and if you don't feel like reading the book, there is also a "this american life" episode that features this family. i think it's called "i didn't ask to be born." i found it heartbreakening but also enlightening. and it has a happy ending (as does the book)


I also know people that feel that they would have thrived more under "tough love" so keep the balance in mind.

BTW though...I hardly think that cutting off WoW is even in the category of "tough love."







That seems more like just "love" to me, and I really don't see how it is on the "tough" side to make an adult pay for their own addiction.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I also know people that feel that they would have thrived more under "tough love" so keep the balance in mind.

BTW though...I hardly think that cutting off WoW is even in the category of "tough love."







That seems more like just "love" to me, and I really don't see how it is on the "tough" side to make an adult pay for their own addiction.

Dead right!


----------



## tug (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
BTW though...I hardly think that cutting off WoW is even in the category of "tough love."







That seems more like just "love" to me, and I really don't see how it is on the "tough" side to make an adult pay for their own addiction.

i agree. i was referring to the references to throwing him out of the house not to cutting off WoW or the internet or cable.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tug* 
i agree. i was referring to the references to throwing him out of the house not to cutting off WoW or the internet or cable.


Oh, whew! Yeah, I don't think that would be right to do immediately. I'm not a big "tough love" person although I do feel that it can work in some cases. But not typically as the very first thing to try.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
Agreed - at sixteen, maybe. To me - nineteen is an adult.

They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.









Kathy


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.









Kathy


You know what's funny? Is if it was that her son (or hypothetical daughter) was going to be a parent then there would be lots of support that a teenage kid/adult can be a great parent, they are capable, and so forth.

But suggest that that same teenage kid/adult stop laying around all day while mom/dad supports a kid lazing around for months non-stop then they are being mean...? Actually, I'm not sure what it is that a parent that would have higher expectations for their teenage kid/adult would be.

So...is it mean to have higher expectations? What is the objection?


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

This is MDC, home of gentle discipline and attachment parenting. I do not think these things abruptly end simply because a child (young adult) has hit a certain age. I think we should wean our children from our financial support in much they same way we wean them from others things.

I do not think freeloading at 19 = being a freeloader for life. What is with the black and white thinking??????

If you are anti coasting, I do not think nagging or micromanaging will work. A person has to want it for themselves - you cannot organise them into it - and pushing may only make them dig in their heels. I know this from personal experience. Both my DH and Ds are much more likely to do something if I lay off









I am not sure what will work. My advice is patience for a little while longer. I know the OP is angst ridden and some posters seem to be too, but he will become motivated on his own scheduel - not yours. I think most people naturally want to do things (work, travel, relationships, etc) and he will want to as well - it just isn't today. I think tough love (which is what seems to be advocated by some) has too high a cost. I love my mom







- but I do not think we would have such a great relationship if she had kicked me out or became all "tough love".

I am not anti making him pay for his own stuff - WoW -just give him enough notice and leave it at that.

Kathy


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.









Kathy

Well, I think any age with the word teen in it means they're still teenagers.









You can drive at 16, or earlier, vote at 18, and drink at 21. I think the laws are a bit mixed up and if I was queen of the world... well, anyway...

My point is that I think being a teenager, young adult (early 20's) is a time of transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone develops at a different rate. I wouldn't call a 19 year old an adult (although legally they have adult rights, but then don't get me started on rights... ) and yes, many people are capable of raising children at that age or younger but I don't see how that is relevant to the OP.

I remember how stressed I was at 18-19 and lost and confused and had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up (I still don't) and how much pressure I felt, real or imagined, to figure it all out NOW. Then again, there was no internet when I was 18-19, yet I still found other outlets for procrastinating, delaying my education, not picking out my life goals and career choices in a timely manner, and all that. So are so many times throughout my adult life that I've said to myself, 'If only my parents hadn't put so many dang controls and rules on me and allowed me the time to figure myself out, and encouraged me to explore all possibilities other than the one path they thought I should take, then my life would be so different now....

So, I come from that perspective. I think it may be a good idea to sit down and discuss the amount of time he spends playing WoW because it truly can be an addiction, but I don't think his slump is cause to kick him out.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
This is MDC, home of gentle discipline and attachment parenting. I do not think these things abruptly end simply because a child (young adult) has hit a certain age. I think we should wean our children from our financial support in much they same way we wean them from others things.

I do not think freeloading at 19 = being a freeloader for life. What is with the black and white thinking??????

If you are anti coasting, I do not think nagging or micromanaging will work. A person has to want it for themselves - you cannot organise them into it - and pushing may only make them dig in their heels. I know this from personal experience. Both my DH and Ds are much more likely to do something if I lay off









I am not sure what will work. My advice is patience for a little while longer. I know the OP is angst ridden and some posters seem to be too, but he will become motivated on his own scheduel - not yours. I think most people naturally want to do things (work, travel, relationships, etc) and he will want to as well - it just isn't today. I think tough love (which is what seems to be advocated by some) has too high a cost. I love my mom







- but I do not think we would have such a great relationship if she had kicked me out or became all "tough love".

I am not anti making him pay for his own stuff - WoW -just give him enough notice and leave it at that.

Kathy


I never suggested *not* giving him notice. And I don't see how it is black/white to cut off JUST WoW and have a higher expectation from a capable adult child. I practice AP and gentle discipline. I don't see how having (some actually small) expectations goes against that.

He very likely may not be a freeloader for life.







: But it has been a year and to many people (who also practice GD and AP) that is long enough to be concerning.

ETA: In case I wasn't 100% clear, I do NOT advocate for kicking him out. And as mentioned, I am pretty much anti- tough-love in most situations as well. Just want to be clear!


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Well, I think any age with the word teen in it means they're still teenagers.









You can drive at 16, or earlier, vote at 18, and drink at 21. I think the laws are a bit mixed up and if I was queen of the world... well, anyway...

My point is that I think being a teenager, young adult (early 20's) is a time of transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone develops at a different rate. I wouldn't call a 19 year old an adult (although legally they have adult rights, but then don't get me started on rights... ) and yes, many people are capable of raising children at that age or younger but I don't see how that is relevant to the OP.

I remember how stressed I was at 18-19 and lost and confused and had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up (I still don't) and how much pressure I felt, real or imagined, to figure it all out NOW. Then again, there was no internet when I was 18-19, yet I still found other outlets for procrastinating making my life goals and career choices. So many times I've said to myself, 'If only my parents hadn't put so many dang controls and rules on me and allowed me the time to figure myself out, and encouraged me to explore all possibilities other than the one path they thought I should take, then my life would be so different now....

So, I come from that perspective. I think it may be a good idea to sit down and discuss the amount of time he spends playing WoW because it truly can be an addiction, but I don't think his slump is cause to kick him out.

Nice post!

I probably should not have made the "drinking at 21" crack - the argument demon simply spewed out of me, lol









I do think it is a transitional age and some of us take longer to transition than others. It is about honouring their process (while not letting our boundaries be stepped on).

OP: are you in Canada? I seem to remember you are... If so there are some fantastic programs for youth he might enjoy (katimavik comes to mind but there are others). If he is Canadian and you think he may be interested in such things, let me know and I will get you some links....

Kathy

OP:


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
<snip>and have a higher expectation from a capable adult child.

<snip>
ETA: In case I wasn't 100% clear, I do NOT advocate for kicking him out. And as mentioned, I am pretty much anti- tough-love in most situations as well. Just want to be clear! 

The easy one first - I totally hear you on the last paragraph! You are clear.









The trickier one second - and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis.....

I am not sure we should have expectations of adult children. I do not have expectations of my adult sister for example. I do not have expectations of my mother. I do have expectations of my husband - but that is because we both enterred into joint responsibilites (kids, house, pets, cars, etc)

I think it is reasonable to have boundaries. If the OP feels her boundaries are being crossed - then she should state them clearly, and fairly. I do think his age should be taken into account - what is freeloading in a 30 year old is not freeloading in a 19 year old. None-the-less that is my take. The OP has to figure out her own.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Nice post!

Thanks









I think that's the first time anyone ever said that about one of my posts in the 4 years I've been a member here.

probably because I do this a lot:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
The easy one first - I totally hear you on the last paragraph! You are clear.









The trickier one second - and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis.....

I am not sure we should have expectations of adult children. I do not have expectations of my adult sister for example. I do not have expectations of my mother. I do have expectations of my husband - but that is because we both enterred into joint responsibilites (kids, house, pets, cars, etc)

I think it is reasonable to have boundaries. If the OP feels her boundaries are being crossed - then she should state them clearly, and fairly. I do think his age should be taken into account - what is freeloading in a 30 year old is not freeloading in a 19 year old. None-the-less that is my take. The OP has to figure out her own.


Well that is the thing. And maybe that is where you and I are also just different. I do have expectations from most adults in my life. Including my siblings, my parents, my spouse, and even friends. They may not be complicated expectations, but they are expectations nonetheless. I'm not sure how it is bad....?

But even if expectations are not the way it should be...I do think the OP is looking for validation that she can have a boundary.

Nobody ever said, "don't communicate clearly with your son." (Not that I saw). I agree that an immediate kicking him out would be over-the-top but I imagine that even people that feel that way would expect a parent to continue stating their boundaries clearly and fairly.

And, yes, we should keep in mind that he is 19, and not 30. But again, it has been a YEAR. If it had been a month or even a few months...I would feel as if you do. But a year is a bit much.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Has he actually been paying rent since Feb? How is he paying it if he doesn't have a job?

Either he does have some sort of income (or perhaps a bank account he's been tapping into?) or you've been letting the rent slide for the past couple of months. (Wait. It's March. He's only had to pay rent twice.)

I think you need to set some boundaries and let him know what they are ahead of time. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to pay for his own WoW.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I do think the OP is looking for validation that she can have a boundary.

Yes. I agree. Validating the need for boundaries is really important, in all relationships.

I also think he may need a little help getting out of his WoW addiction.

The parent/child relationship changes as well, and it's really difficult to change from parent/child to parent/adultish child, different rules, different boundaries for both. It can just get a bit confusing sometimes. The OP clearly wants to help motivate her son, but on the other hand, she doesn't want to feel used.


----------



## veganone (May 10, 2007)

I think it's one thing to let a kid coast a bit, and enjoy young adulthood. I did that for a few years. BUT, I was certainly not permitted to not work or go to school and my parents certainly didn't fund any addictions (smoking and WoW would qualify IMO).


----------



## NikonMama (Jan 8, 2008)

Minus the WoW, that sounds like me when I was 19. I slept all day, and spent all night on the computer. It is how I get when I'm depressed, much like right now, and I'm doing the same thing. My parents put up with it for a while, but finally my dad stormed into my room one day while I was sleeping and told me that I needed to get a job within a week or I would have to find somewhere else to live.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Well that is the thing. And maybe that is where you and I are also just different. I do have expectations from most adults in my life. Including my siblings, my parents, my spouse, and even friends. They may not be complicated expectations, but they are expectations nonetheless. I'm not sure how it is bad....?

And, yes, we should keep in mind that he is 19, and not 30. But again, it has been a YEAR. If it had been a month or even a few months...I would feel as if you do. But a year is a bit much.

Maybe my idea of expectations are different from yours.

For example, if I go visit my mom I will drive her around, she will be gratefull and happy I drove her, but it is not an expectation. I don't _have_ to and she would not lay that on me.

We are adults and free to live our own lives. I think there is pressure that can come with trying to live up to anothers expectations that is not always healthy.

I wish I could multi quote!

Veganone - I would disagree with the line:

"there is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him"

Your BIL is 29! He is responsible for his own fate - his parents are not to blame (even if they enable) for his life. It is _his_ life.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

One last thought and then I am off to bed! (I may not have a Wow addiction, I do have an MDC one, lol)

There is an idea in US (or deschooling - more precisely) that it takes an average of one month of deschooling per year in school to regain oneself. I am sure not all of you are USers, but the OP is, so it might be worth her consideration.

This young man has probably been in school for 12 years. It is going to take a good while before he becomes self motivated.

Kathy


----------



## IlluminatedAttic (Aug 25, 2006)

These are my thoughts from a BTDT perspective.

Does he have any goals for the future? A career he wants to pursue? First thing I would do is help him with this. Find a place to get him career counseling if necessary. Once a goal is established help him plan a pathway to achieving it. Perhaps it will be college or vocational training. Perhaps it is an apprenticeship. Whatever the path needs to be help him figure this out. Set a time frame for all of the above research to happen. If he truly has no idea what career he is interested in then perhaps find some service organizations that he can be involved with several hours a week. I know several people for whom volunteer service was a catalyst for their passion in career change/choice.

Next, decide how much you and dh want to invest financially in this goal/path. Perhaps you are willing to pay for a portion of his school tuition, but also think about books and supplies, room and board, everything. Perhaps you have already paid for schooling in the past that did not work out and you are not willing to contribute any more. Whatever might be needed, try to quantify what you are willing to bear.

Then, with these decisions in mind, sit down with your ds and come up with a contract. Financial contributions from you will be contingent upon certain actions on his part. Examples might be; Your % of any tuition payments is dependent on him maintaining a B average. Or, tenancy in the house is allowed only by payment of a set amount of rent PLUS putting a certain amount into savings. (So he can eventually afford to move out.) and set a date by which he will find other housing. Whatever the path match it to the requirements. Put time frames on everything but make them reasonable and comfortable.

Now the hardest part - STICK TO IT. I agree with the pps who said that you have tried your best to raise him to be a successful man and need to stop enabling his efforts to undo this dream.

I know all of this is difficult. We went thru a similar experience with my dss. This type of 'tough love' can be heart wrenching. But we knew that his biggest issue was inertia and we made sure to tell him continuously that we had faith in him and knew that he could be successful. We had lots of conversations. We put in place every possible support, did nothing abruptly, were willing to adapt to changes in the situation, but we were consistent in our requirement that he always be striving for a goal. It did not happen overnight, but he's doing very well now, very successful in the career he finally chose.

Good Luck!


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Maybe my idea of expectations are different from yours.

For example, if I go visit my mom I will drive her around, she will be gratefull and happy I drove her, but it is not an expectation. I don't _have_ to and she would not lay that on me.

We are adults and free to live our own lives. I think there is pressure that can come with trying to live up to anothers expectations that is not always healthy.

I wish I could multi quote!

Veganone - I would disagree with the line:

"there is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him"

Your BIL is 29! He is responsible for his own fate - his parents are not to blame (even if they enable) for his life. It is _his_ life.


I think a parent having some expectations of an older teenage/adult child is a good thing and pretty much apples and oranges to compare to driving someone around, which I find an odd comparison.

Their son lives with them. From what the OP said, he pretty much does nothing but sleep and play WoW. He only does things for $ to get tobacco. You talk about boundaries being okay, and as mentioned, Mom is feeling uncomfortable with the situation and would like validation that putting up a boundary is okay.

It is not having lofty expectations at this point to expect the kid to do more than he is doing. Yes...have conversations...find out WHAT and WHY. Set boundaries and clear expectations. Listen to your child. Nobody is saying that Mom should not do any of those things.

But just b/c someone has been unschooled and is raised GD/AP does not mean that there would be an expectation of some sort that the child contribute to the household.

At what point does a parent say "this is enough. We need for you to contribute to our house as you are a member of our house." You think that one year of doing nothing but playing WoW and sleeping is fine. Many people (including ones that have BTDT - which I think is VERY relevant) think it is too long and a good time to work on making changes before these habits set in even more.

So after how many years should a parent come to have a higher expectation from a member of a household?


----------



## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Bedhead, you have every right to set some boundaries and expectations. BTDT

I would start with the WoW. Tell him that the renewal is coming up and unless he has the $$ to pay for it, (on his own, not paid chores from you) it wont be renewed. Its not up for discussion, its just the way it is. Even put it in writing so he cant argue that you never told him or argue the date. Now heres the important part: stick to your guns. You can do this!









Babysteps. You dont have to figure it all out right away, just start with one thing and go from there.

I know it can be hard, my ds is almost 19 and we went thru a rough patch too. And we still are transitioning.

Hang in there!


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Karina5 - I think you are being argumentative, and I am not sure why









All I think is that patience is in order. You disagree - that is fine.

I also have several BTDT - I can think of 3 members of my family who "loafed" around in early, early adulthood. All 3 are working now and not sponging off of anyone. One of them does play Wow, but he pays for it himself, lol.

For the record, I am not against the OP paying for his own Wow. I think him paying for non-essentials is a great introduction to finance management.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Karina5 - I think you are being argumentative, and I am not sure why









*All I think is that patience is in order. You disagree - that is fine.*

I also have several BTDT - I can think of 3 members of my family who "loafed" around in early, early adulthood. All 3 are working now and not sponging off of anyone. One of them does play Wow, but he pays for it himself, lol.

For the record, I am not against the OP paying for his own Wow. I think him paying for non-essentials is a great introduction to finance management.


A few things. I only have a second....

1. I'm not being argumentative, just trying to understand your position. And disagreeing with you on some things, but so are many people on this thread.

2. You said patience should be in order. I actually don't disagree with that. I don't think kicking him out is "patient" and I have said several times that I don't think that would be the right thing to do.

My question for you was how long should a parent be okay with this? I'm genuinely curious about your opinion! 

3. Having relatives/knowing people who have BTDT is not the same as actually BTDT - like the son. That is all I meant. I think we all *know* people who have BTDT. I have. Most of them are working now, some have struggled. But actually living the situation is different than knowing someone who has done that.

Again...not being argumentative. It seems we both have some strong opinions on this, and I am just stating mine and trying to understand yours, and I am doing so respectfully.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Ooops, I thought I was done but I'm not,







!

Veganone said:

Quote:

I have a BIL who is now 29 and is still exactly like the OP's son. You do need to set some boundaries and I agree that the longer you wait the harder it is for them to change.

Her point, as was mine, is that these habits can become very ingrained, not that he is now 29 years old.


----------



## organicpapayamama (Dec 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Except for the WoW addiction, and the fact that I don't have a basement.. I can totally see this happening to my daughter.

I have no wisdom. (obviously) But, I will watch this thread for ideas/advice.

On a side note, I have quite a few friends going through a divorce right now because of WoW. I'm amazed that a computer game can destroy lives. How does that happen?

no advice on the teen situation but wanted to second the issues with WOW... my DH at the time was addicted like 24/7, needless to say we are now almost officially divorced. not because of WOW but it was an contributing factor... its a big deal


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi karina5,

I have deliberately avoided answering the question of "how long should a parent be Ok with coasting?" - as I genuinely do not know!

I know I would be Ok with over a year -but I get that everyone has their own limits. There would be would be multi-factors that come into play.

Is this person having difficulty transitioning from adolescents to adulthood - and in need of support and help (and perhaps time?*). Are they genuinely overwhelmed? Do they respect boundaries I have set?

or

Is the person treating me like a piggy-bank and developing an entitlement issue that should not exist in parent/adult-child relationship?

If it is the former, I am way more likely to let them ride it out- with offers of support and resources (counselling even - my sister probably could have used some)

If it is the latter - there would come a time (and it would not take long!) when I would state boundaries in a clear, firm way.

kathy

*I am also cognisant of the fact that outsiders often want people to "get over it" long before they are ready. I have an acquaintance who had twins - people were initially helpfull, but soon lost patience with her inability to deal. Grief is another area where this comes to mind. So I think we need to be aware as a society that we often ask people to transition from things before they are ready.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Hi karina5,

I have deliberately avoided answering the question of "how long should a parent be Ok with coasting?" - as I genuinely do not know!

I know I would be Ok with over a year -but I get that everyone has their own limits. I think there would be would be multi-factors that come into play.

Is this person having difficulty transitioning from adolescents to adulthood - and in need of support and help (and perhaps time?). Are they genuinely overwhelmed? Do they respect boundaries I have set?

or

Is the person treating me like a piggy-bank and developing an entitlement issue that should not exist in parent/adult-child relationship?

If it is the former, I am way more likely to let them ride it out- with offers of support and resources (counselling even - my sister probably could have used some)

If it is the latter - there will come a time (and it would not take long!) when I would state boundaries in a clear, firm way.

kathy


Cool. I appreciate your viewpoint! I am right on board w/ everything you say in this post.  Well...except for one thing and that is the year timeline.


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Oh my, thank you all so much for your input. It's very helpful, because all the different perspectives pretty much sum up exactly the things I've been struggling with myself, and reading everyone's input and experiences is like listening to my own brain in a lot of ways!!

I don't have any intention of paying for his next WoW subscription. I just know that he's going to ask to do chores to pay for it, and that's where I need strength because I have to say no to that. I work full time, and the temptation to just give in so that he does do something around the house is strong. But I'm not going to - I'm NOT.







:

I could never bring myself to kick him out of the house. Not just for being lazy.

As for removing internet access - that isn't going to happen, much as I would love it to. Dh would never agree.

Ruthla, you asked if he has income - no he doesn't. He owes us $600 right now for rent, $300 for Feb and $300 for March.

I have kicked around the idea of telling him he can work off the rent by doing chores, but haven't discussed that with him yet. I haven't decided if that would be good or bad.

kathymuggle, you have brought up many of the things that have made me struggle. I am very aware of the deschooling process and how long it can take. He attended school for 13 1/2 years, plus preschool, and I am sure that he's still going through it. But at the same time, I am feeling used. I don't mind if all he does is gets a job that pays him $300 a month so he can pay his rent. If he only works 2 or 3 days a week. But I think he needs to be contributing, not just freeloading. I don't mean that he should be paying the mortgage and grocery bill and everything, just that he should be starting to support himself as a baby step toward being independent some day. But at the same time I don't want to push him into anything he isn't ready for. And yes, we're in Canada, Alberta actually. Any resources you have access to and can share would be much appreciated!

We've had many conversations over the course of the last year. It's been a hard year for him, but his head is in a good space now and he's ready to go to work. Unfortunately, he left it till the recession hit and jobs aren't falling into people's laps like they were a year ago. He's also picky about where he wants to work, which is limiting his choices. And he doesn't really apply himself to job hunting the way I think he should be at this stage of the game. I figure he should be out the door pounding the pavement every morning, but he thinks putting 5 resumes a week out should be enough. *sigh*

He does have goals and aspirations. He wants to travel, he wants to own a business selling and repairing martial arts equipment, he's very interested in woodworking. But he hasn't even gotten his butt to karate in the last 5 months (which I pay $60 a month for), not even once. It pisses me off when I see that money come out of my account each month and know that it's been totally wasted. I have to keep paying till July too.







:


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Bedhead, thanks for the update and I'm glad everyone's posts are good food for thought for you. One thing you said stands out -

Quote:

He wants to travel, he wants to own a business selling and repairing martial arts equipment, he's very interested in woodworking.
Here are my thougts on that...sometimes people have things they want to do and it's just very overwhelming. Take just the first one. "Travel." Well that is a huge, very generalized goal. What I have found helpful is to break it down. Figuring out WHERE do you want to travel? How will you get there? Will you go with anyone? WHEN should you go? Etc, etc..... helps make an overwhelming goal do-able.

With that goal is the $. Because to travel you need at least *some* money. So help him set a goal. "I would like to travel to ________ in the month(s) of _________ and will need $________ to do so."

And then with that goal is the job thing. I get that there are a lot of not-so-great jobs right now, but most 19 year olds have had to tolerate a job that they are not in love with. So break that down. "If I work 20-25 hours a week (even doing something I hate) that will still leave plenty of time for _____ and __________ and meanwhile I will be making $ towards my travel goal AND I can still send out 5 resumes/week looking for something better."

One thing I have noticed in my own life is that the busier I am, the more time I actually have. Sounds silly so let me explain....

I spent about 2 months when I was 25 doing nothing. No job, didn't want to look for a job, no responsibilities, really, not even housework....

Well I have no idea what I did w/ my time (nothing) but somehow the days would just disappear. And then I had a complete turnaround. Got a fulltime, 40-hour job, decided to take a French class AND a Yoga class. And I also worked 2 nights a week helping an elderly couple with dinner. Now almost every waking minute I had something to do. I was so busy! I really noticed when I had a span of time do "nothing" (such as Saturday mornings) and I appreciated it so much more. I don't know...I can't explain it...I'm not doing a job verbalizing it, but I know I just couldn't wrap my head around those 2 months of doing nothing and not feeling like I had any time, even though I had all the time in the world.

So...now that I've completely confused you







I hope you get some good ideas from everyone's posts.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Here are a few:

http://www.katimavik.org/

http://www.international.gc.ca/iyp-p....aspx?lang=eng

http://www.canadaworldyouth.org/en/

http://www.youth.gc.ca/eng/home.shtml

http://www.programs.alberta.ca/Livin...aspx?N=770+177

http://www.edmonton.ymca.ca/Communit...4/Default.aspx

Hugs to you and your son.

Kathy


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Last thought (maybe







)

You could show him this thread (if you think he would be cool with it).
It may help to open the lines of communication.

Kathy


----------



## loveandgarbage (Feb 5, 2008)

i never completely "freeloaded" on my parents at that age, but definitely spent months at a time jobless/depressed and partying all night/sleeping all day. i would think that giving him money for chores is a good idea, if you put it aside for travel/school/business start-up expenses. it might be the leg-up he needs to get out of the WoW hole. does he have social interactions outside of the computer? i would worry about that.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
This is MDC, home of gentle discipline and attachment parenting. I do not think these things abruptly end simply because a child (young adult) has hit a certain age. I think we should wean our children from our financial support in much they same way we wean them from others things.

19 is not a child in my house. 19 is an adult and expected to be working, studying or both. Infantalizing our children does them no favours at all.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
One last thought and then I am off to bed! (I may not have a Wow addiction, I do have an MDC one, lol)

There is an idea in US (or deschooling - more precisely) that it takes an average of one month of deschooling per year in school to regain oneself. I am sure not all of you are USers, but the OP is, so it might be worth her consideration.

This young man has probably been in school for 12 years. It is going to take a good while before he becomes self motivated.

Kathy

Interesting. I went from 12 years of school to full time work with a 2 week break. It didn't take me any time at all to be self motivated.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Interesting. I went from 12 years of school to full time work with a 2 week break. It didn't take me any time at all to be self motivated.


I did too. This is relevant because...???

We all have things we struggle with. For some it is transition from adolescences to adulthood, and for some it is different things.
I struggle with things other find easy, and vice-versa.

The question with anyone going through a difficulty is how can we support them without getting our boundaries trampled on.


----------



## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I went to college at 17 but was just as lost and clueless as could be. I wish that somebody had sat me down and asked me the following:

What is your values system?
What kind of responsibilties do you have to yourself? To your family? Community? The world?
What can you see in the world that needs to be done?
What can you do to make the world into the kind of place that you want it to be?
...I guess that whole "be the change you want to see in the world" ethos. It would have helped me get some clarity about what to study in school and what kind of skills I should be trying to acquire, to sort out the difference between what I _like_ doing and what I could do that would give me a deep sense of satisfaction and feeling that my work is of value to other people.

If he doesn't have a paid job, maybe you could insist that he go out and volunteer his time and that you will credit him $8 dollars an hour so that he has to work off his rent outside the house doing something useful, even if it's not remunerative. He can also work off the $60/month karate fee if he isn't going to the dojo to use it anymore.

If he is interested in woodworking, see if he can find a person with whom he can intern or work for part-time to see if he's REALLY interested in it before he commits to going to school to learn it as a trade. Same for the martial arts equipment idea.

If he wants to travel, Habitat for Humanity and other NGOs have volunteer opportunities in foreign countries - maybe he would like to go to Haiti or Mexico and build houses for a month.

If he is playing video games and sitting around the house all day, it a recipe for angst, torpor, and depression (BTDT). I really think they do something bad to the brain.

Final thoughts - I had a boyfriend who was a somewhat aimless young man. His mother sent him on an Outward Bound trip that included a lot of hiking in rough terrain with no possibility of bathing, team- and trust-building activities, and a solo experience, where each person in the group was left in a wilderness location for 24 hours with no contact from anyone else in the group. Though it was not a panacea, I think this experience had a pretty profound effect on him and his confidence in his ability to rely on himself.

Re: getting him off his a$$, I think sitting him down to write up and sign a rental agreement, like he would have to sign if he had anyone else as a landlord, would be a way for you all to set out expectations about his responsibilities and the consequences for not holding up his end of whatever deal you strike. For awhile, that might include him getting up to go to work at the same time as you and DH, even if his work is helping little kids learn to read at the local elementary school or doing hospice home visits with 90 year olds. Then stick with it.

As for being picky about jobs, as my mean ol' grandma would say, "Beggars can't be choosers." In Grown-Up Town, sometimes we take a job that isn't our dream job so that we have the resources to eat and keep a roof over our heads while we search for a job that we would like better. He's 19 and has a high school diploma - what kind of hotshot job does he think he will be getting? There's no shame in retail, food service, physical labor, or custodial services, and whatever he finds is not his forever job. I think an unfulfilling job can also be a great motivator to find something you do want to do.


----------



## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Check this out. What your son is experiencing is a major problem with lots of young men and boys today.
http://www.boysadrift.com/


----------



## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

I second the rental agreement. And make it about not just your needs/wants but his as well. This way he feels like he has some input and may be more receptive to it. For instance, he sleeps in on weekends or something..cant think of any good examples right now, sorry. (Dealing with a caffeine high lol)

I also think the volunteering idea is a good one. Do you think he'd go for it?

And have you talked to people you know about any jobs that they know about? Kinda one of those, "who ya know, not what you know" get your foot in the door jobs? This is how my ds found his f/t job. I wish he got it on his own, instead of a family member helping him with it, but I can only believe its what was meant to be for him.

I'll post more later when this coffee wears off......lol


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I graduated in 1986. I spent a year at community college, learning something I could actually use in day-to-day life...finished that in June, 1987. I didn't get a job until April, 1988. I was three days away from being kicked out of the house (I did have a place to go, but I still didn't want to leave). I still needed a lot of help from a friend to get me off my butt. I wouldn't have done it without the ultimatum. That job wound up in December, and I got a new job in early February, '89. Except for 6 months of maternity leave when ds1 was born, I worked full-time until I had dd in 2003. Now, I'm a SAHM.

So, I've btdt, to some degree. I didn't seem unhappy, either. However, I was depressed - fairly seriously. Despite that, I don't think coasting to the extent that the OP's son is doing is acceptable _at all_ - not for one week, let alone one year. He's not doing _anything_. When I was avoiding looking for a job, I was still making meals for the family sometimes and doing a certain amount of household cleaning and such. DD (5) pitches in around the house more than the OP describes her son as doing. DS1 (16 in 8 days) does a _ton_ more than that, in addition to going to school. I really don't think this level of coasting is good for anyone, and it easily becomes a habit.

OP: Obviously, only you can decide what to do. I definitely agree with you and everybody else (I think?) that WoW should not be renewed unless he can come up with the money for it on his own. I honestly find it somewhat appalling that he's living at home, rent free (owing rent and paying it aren't the same thing, after all) _and_ having internet and videogames provided free of charge. If your dh won't agree to discontinue the internet, is it possible to set it up so a password is necessary to log on? That way, your ds could access it for job/education research, but couldn't bum around on it (like I do







).

I'm a little more "tough love" oriented than some others here, because it worked for me. I'd probably set a deadline that he had to start _paying_ his rent or get out...but I know that's not for everybody. I definitely think it's time to start cracking down on financing his pastimes, though.

Good luck. I know it can be hard to hang tough, and I'm sure you're right that he'll expect to just do some chores so he can keep playing WoW.


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
I work full time, and the temptation to just give in so that he does do something around the house is strong. But I'm not going to - I'm NOT.

Ruthla, you asked if he has income - no he doesn't. He owes us $600 right now for rent, $300 for Feb and $300 for March.

I think he needs to be contributing, not just freeloading. I don't mean that he should be paying the mortgage and grocery bill and everything, just that he should be starting to support himself as a baby step toward being independent some day. But at the same time I don't want to push him into anything he isn't ready for.

He's also picky about where he wants to work, which is limiting his choices.

But he hasn't even gotten his butt to karate in the last 5 months (which I pay $60 a month for), not even once. It pisses me off when I see that money come out of my account each month and know that it's been totally wasted. I have to keep paying till July too.







:

One, everyone who lives in the house does chores WITH NO PAY because we all live here and it takes all of us to get done what needs to get done. He really does NOTHING to help the household run unless you pay him? My 5 year old (and 8 and 12 year olds) do chores and don't get paid. I don't get paid to do the laundry or buy the groceries. It is what we do as a family.

Two, he is NOT paying rent! Owing you two months rent with no job to make the money is not paying rent! You giving him money for household chores that he should do anyway, just so he can turn around and pay you rent is just silly IMO.

Three, I absolutely agree with you - of course he needs to be contributing. You are being way too easy on him. You don't want to push a 19 year old MAN into something (a job of his choice) that he isn't ready for? I don't understand that at all. He is NOT a child anymore. He is old enough to go to war for crying out loud!

I'd say to live in your house as an adult, he starts paying rent this pay period. McDonalds, gas station, video rental place, whatever. Get the nearest job and start pulling your weight. THEN take your sweet time looking for a "good" job. A job that gives you a paycheck every two weeks is a good job in his situation.

And he owes you for karate. I'd tack $60 a month to his rent bill. That is ridiculous!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
19 is not a child in my house. 19 is an adult and expected to be working, studying or both. Infantalizing our children does them no favours at all.

Thank you!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
If he wants to travel, Habitat for Humanity and other NGOs have volunteer opportunities in foreign countries - maybe he would like to go to Haiti or Mexico and build houses for a month.

As for being picky about jobs, as my mean ol' grandma would say, "Beggars can't be choosers." In Grown-Up Town, sometimes we take a job that isn't our dream job so that we have the resources to eat and keep a roof over our heads while we search for a job that we would like better. He's 19 and has a high school diploma - what kind of hotshot job does he think he will be getting? There's no shame in retail, food service, physical labor, or custodial services, and whatever he finds is not his forever job. I think an unfulfilling job can also be a great motivator to find something you do want to do.

Yes, yes, yes!

I can tell you that I've seen friends go through this. Adult children living the easy life while their parents slave away. It is just sad. And not a gift to the child in any way IMO.

I've made it crystal clear to my kids that when you turn 18 and graduate from high school, you will be off living at college that very next September. Happy to have you home to visit, eat, hell I'll even do your laundry if you bring it back! But there is no moving back in! It is the real world from that point out. And the real world is actually really cool and exciting if you just push them out there! Would they rather stay in our house and play WoW and eat our food for years - sure. Is it good for them - no.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
And he owes you for karate. I'd tack $60 a month to his rent bill. That is ridiculous!

Yes - I was just thinking the same thing. I'd missed that the first time I read through.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 

I've made it crystal clear to my kids that when you turn 18 and graduate from high school, you will be off living at college that very next September. Happy to have you home to visit, eat, hell I'll even do your laundry if you bring it back! But there is no moving back in! .

Wow. Harsh, IMNSHO. Not all kids (young adults) are ready to fly the coop at 18. It is highly unlikely I would push my kids out at 18 (I wanted to say "never" - but never is a bit absolute). I do think if my mother had pushed me out when I was 18 it would have done serious (perhaps irreparable) harm my relationship with my mother.

some stats for fun:

3/5 22 years have moved out of the family home
9/10 of 29 year olds have

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...22/ai_14995056

Here is another one:

http://www.transad.pop.upenn.edu/dow...%20in%20US.pdf

(it maintains 50% of people between 18-24 live at home)

I wonder if some of the more intense or "tough love" type responses are a cultural thing. I know the USA prides itself on its independance -I wonder if this has spilled over to family values. Would we get the same response on a European board? Not judging - just wonderring. There is more than one way _to be._


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Wow. Harsh, IMNSHO. Not all kids (young adults) are ready to fly the coop at 18.

In my family, if my kids are not ready to fly the coop or at least be in full time work or full time education by 18 I will feel like I've failed at my job as a parent. It is my job to help them grow up and be able to function in the world as an adult.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

My parents still helped me out when I was 19, and even into my early 20's, so I'm not all about "cut him off/chop!/immediately!" mindset. Many of my friends had some help, too

Yet my parents had expectations from me. In this situation, he isn't contributing AT ALL so I can see where people would be alarmed by that.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
In my family, if my kids are not ready to fly the coop or at least be in full time work or full time education by 18 I will feel like I've failed at my job as a parent. It is my job to help them grow up and be able to function in the world as an adult.

Ok - so let's say it happens and you feel you have failed.

How do you _help_ them to move on?

I am genuinely curious because I see no magic bullet.

-do nothing - you risk becoming a doormat if it goes on too long, and an enabler

-offer help: resources, job finding, whatever. Hope they want it. I like this option the best - but the young adult has to want it.

-go all tough love-y. Risk ruining your relationship or sending a young perosn who is ill-equipped to handle the world out into it. Sometimes tough love is a good idea - but having a coasting child isn't one of them (IMNSHO).

I think it goes without saying that everyone agrees that reasonable boundaries (I will not pay for your Wow or smokes) while this is going on is healthy for everyone.

I also think the "full time job" is a bit unrealistic. Many jobs start out part time - that is just the way it is. Don't feel llike a failure if your DD or DS can only find part time work in the beginning when they start out - ok?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Ok - so let's say it happens and you feel you have failed.

How do you _help_ them to move on?

I am genuinely curious because I see no magic bullet.

-do nothing - you risk becoming a doormat if it goes on too long, and an enabler

-offer help: resources, job finding, whatever. Hope they want it. I like this option the best - but the young adult has to want it.

-go all tough love-y. Risk ruining your relationship or sending a young perosn who is ill-equipped to handle the world out into it. Sometimes tough love is a good idea - but having a coasting child isn't one of them (IMNSHO).

I think it goes without saying that everyone agrees that reasonable boundaries (I will not pay for your Wow or smokes) while this is going on is healthy for everyone.

Well, I hope to avoid that situation by equiping my kids to handle the world BEFORE they get to 18. They already do their share of household maintenance, cooking, cleaning etc. My older daughter already has a couple of paying jobs (freelance database work) my younger earns money as a mother's helper. The older one also handles her own money from what she earns plus clothing allowance and knows how to budget and handle a bank account. These are very basic things, but it means that they already know that life is not a free ride, that you have to put in as well as take. I doubt that at 19 they will suddenly decide that it's cool to do absolutely nothing to contribute to the family or their own upkeep.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Well, I hope to avoid that situation by equiping my kids to handle the world BEFORE they get to 18. They already do their share of household maintenance, cooking, cleaning etc. My older daughter already has a couple of paying jobs (freelance database work) my younger earns money as a mother's helper. The older one also handles her own money from what she earns plus clothing allowance and knows how to budget and handle a bank account. These are very basic things, but it means that they already know that life is not a free ride, that you have to put in as well as take. I doubt that at 19 they will suddenly decide that it's cool to do absolutely nothing to contribute to the family or their own upkeep.

Cool. It may be hard to believe given my stance on this thread - but we have a similar approach. My DS (13) pays for 1/2 his Wow (DH, who uses it as well pays the other half). All kids have chores they are expected to do because they live here. Hopefully, this will empower them to care for themselves as they get older

However, this doesn't really help the OP. Either she didn't deliver or her son did not absorb those messages growing up (or he is going through something) It happens - and she needs help _now._


----------



## WhiteHorse (Feb 28, 2009)

I did not read all of the responses here, so sorry if any of this has been said already. I really feel for you!! I have a set of twins who are 19 and they are now living with grandparents. It is a long story - I wont go into gory details, but the jist of it all is that my parents did not think either twin was capable of supporting themselves OR taking on any college loans. They are both in college. So my parents took them in when DH and I decided to move to a small apt (another long story involving my semi-voluntary unemployment due to new LO). My parents thought that their model of being generous and hard-working and responsible would rub off on my twins and they would miraculously turn into hard working responsible adults. Neither have worked a job since they moved in there (whereas both had jobs while living under my roof) and even though they were told they would HAVE to get jobs, neither has. But oh, they have plenty of money to go to movies, buy games, go out to eat, have internet, have car insurance paid for, take out girlfriends, drive across the country to visit long-distance girlfriends and stay in hotels, and take out loans to buy new cars. So yeah, I am staying clear out of that mess now.

I believe that 19-23 is about the most difficult time in a person's life - figuring out what to do with your life is SO HARD without some real hands on structure. You TELLING him or even putting it in WRITING or having him draw out a plan is not structure. This is what I would do in your situation. I would first figure out a way to deny him internet access to his own computer (remove jack or wireless card, etc). I would do it without telling him in advance - no fights yelling or negotiating. Then when you have his attention (which will be instantaneous) I would give him a certain time frame to when you expect him to take his next step. That next step might be his own apt, the military, college, or mission/volunteer travel (as another poster gave good examples). The time frame might be 6 months, 1 year, whatever you decide. Then say to him his rent needs to be paid in earned cash (not chores or gift money) before the internet access is granted. Do not give him any allowance. You should consider buying bus tickets for him instead of giving him cash so he can get to a job interview, etc. DO NOT WAVER!!!! You have to be absolutely of one mind with your husband and make sure you both have the discussion with him together. If there is ANY inkling that either of you will waver on this ultimatum, your son, like a black bear, will smell it and will know you are blowing hot air. I would also have DAILY updates whenever you see him and he is awake and alert. I would be ALL OVER HIM every second until he gets a job. BUT I would not drive him anywhere or give him anything, he is not 6 years old and he can and will find a way to do it if he is forced. If he does actually surprise you and pay his rent, I would keep it saved in an account for him (without his knowledge) so you can buy him stuff for his apt (or make a deposit, etc).

This kind of tough love really is not tough. Our forebears had extremely tough conditions in which to grow up and it made them strong. Do not worry about doing damage - he is an adult. If he still does not do anything, which if he really likes internet, he will - then I would plan to kick him physically out of the house. (well, not physically kick him - you know what I mean). If you two get tough with him, he will turn out fine. He is perfectly capable of doing it, you have to believe in him.


----------



## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

Suggestion from someone without a teenager, if you want to hear it - going off of what someone else posted, what about volunteer work? Especially if he's having a hard time finding a job (though you say he's not trying all that hard), maybe suggest volunteer work in lieu of rent. You know, for every x hours of volunteer work you'll take x dollars off his rent. It will get him out of the house, get him doing something worthwhile, and looks great on a resume.


----------



## WhiteHorse (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy* 
Suggestion from someone without a teenager, if you want to hear it - going off of what someone else posted, what about volunteer work? Especially if he's having a hard time finding a job (though you say he's not trying all that hard), maybe suggest volunteer work in lieu of rent. You know, for every x hours of volunteer work you'll take x dollars off his rent. It will get him out of the house, get him doing something worthwhile, and looks great on a resume.

Actually, this is a good idea. One of my twins did this (it was a school project) but it ended up he liked it and then got a paying job for this place the next season. He worked for the park district cleaning up the golf course. Any kind of work that gets them out of the house and away from the computer is a very very good thing. A lot of teenagers are AFRAID of the real world and just avoid it. It's easier to sit there. Once they get both feet wet, it's much easier.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I wonder if some of the more intense or "tough love" type responses are a cultural thing. I know the USA prides itself on its independance -I wonder if this has spilled over to family values. Would we get the same response on a European board? Not judging - just wonderring. There is more than one way _to be._

Well, I'd probably kick my son out if he didn't shape up after some strong boundaries (no WoW, some kind of internet control, _pay_ his rent, pitch in at home, etc.) were established, and I'm not American. The two most hardcore tough love parents I've personally met were also both from England, not Canada _or_ the US.

I put a high value on independence (actually more on interdependence), but I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. I don't see how it's okay to sponge off other people.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
My parents still helped me out when I was 19, and even into my early 20's, so I'm not all about "cut him off/chop!/immediately!" mindset. Many of my friends had some help, too

Yet my parents had expectations from me. In this situation, he isn't contributing AT ALL so I can see where people would be alarmed by that.

I had some help, too. But, "help" implies that the person being helped is actually doing something, imo.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, I'd probably kick my son out if he didn't shape up after some strong boundaries (no WoW, some kind of internet control, _pay_ his rent, pitch in at home, etc.) were established, and I'm not American. The two most hardcore tough love parents I've personally met were also both from England, not Canada _or_ the US.

I put a high value on independence (actually more on interdependence), but I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. I don't see how it's okay to sponge off other people.

Ha! I know you are from Canada and I knew you would say that, lol

One person does not prove or disprove a theory, though. I was simply wonderring what, if any, role culture played.

What you see as sponging I may see as supporting someone (a 19 year old son) through a transitional time.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy* 
Suggestion from someone without a teenager, if you want to hear it - going off of what someone else posted, what about volunteer work? Especially if he's having a hard time finding a job (though you say he's not trying all that hard), maybe suggest volunteer work in lieu of rent. You know, for every x hours of volunteer work you'll take x dollars off his rent. It will get him out of the house, get him doing something worthwhile, and looks great on a resume.

I second or third this. It might be the motivation he needs.

Kathy


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

A couple more points to consider:

He's known for years that once he was done grade 12, he had one free year at home - no rent - if he wasn't in school. He took one semester - two classes - after grade 12, which I gave him a break on so his year didn't start till he was done that, which was a year ago Feb 1. The idea was that he get a job and save money for that year, which he obviously hasn't done.

He's held jobs in the past - he started working at 15 - but has quit every one for one reason or another. He actually worked pretty steadily through high school. It's only since then he's become a bum.

He seems to be lacking something that I certainly had as a teen - the desire to be independent and not relying on others for everything.


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

The volunteer idea is fantastic - thanks!


----------



## Annapooh (Jan 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.









Kathy

But they can enter into legal contracts, open checking accounts, credit cards, get a lease for an apt. etc at 19. There is a WOW addiction in my home also, but the addict, gets up, goes to work and pays all of our family's bills. Ds plays wow with dad, and he has to pay for half of it with his allowance$, and he is 13. At 19, they aren't mentally ready for all the responsibilities of a 36y/o, but they sure as heck can get off their butt and work/go to school, and pay for their own stuff.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.









Kathy

I love the eyeroll - not sure why it was necessary, I wasn't being combative.

I'm in Canada - you can vote, own property and get married at eighteen.

You can drink and buy smokes at nineteen. Not everyone lives in the US...


----------



## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

..and depending on where you live in canada, you can add drinking and smoking to the 18 list too.


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm in Alberta, and you can drink and buy smokes here at 18. Legally, he's an adult. But he's still my kid, *A* kid. And if he was to move out, I know he *could* make it on his own. He just needs a push to get himself to work - it's the motivation he lacks.


----------



## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Could he be depressed?


----------



## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
I'm in Alberta, and you can drink and buy smokes here at 18. Legally, he's an adult. But he's still my kid, *A* kid. And if he was to move out, I know he *could* make it on his own. He just needs a push to get himself to work - it's the motivation he lacks.

Of course he'll make it. He'll have booze and smokes. What else could he need?







Sorry, just trying to make you laugh a bit.









I understand, believe me. I have one of those non-motivated young adults too. I thinking we cant motivate them, it has to come from within them. But what we can do is have clear set boundaries, expectations and consequences. (And the right to change them as needed.)
Sounds like you have started by not renewing the WoW sub. Thats a good start! Stay strong mama!


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Heck, I am in Canada, too!

I think the 21 crack was just my way of pointing out that 19 is not quite an adult - at least not in all places!

I think 19 is a transitional age - are they an old teen? A young adult?

I think it varies from person to person.

I was an adult at 17 in many ways, but some do not reach that level of maturity till later. We all have our own processes - and I do not think a 19 year still being immature in some ways falls outside the range of norm.

Bedhead - I hope he finds the motivation he lacks. Hugs.

Kathy


----------



## tuscaloosa37 (Jul 30, 2008)

I think getting started in the world is MUCH easier to do with friends. Does he have a couple of guys he could get an apartment with? They could give each other moral support. If he has no friends, that's a whole other kettle of fish. But even then, maybe he could answer a roommate ad in the paper, especially if you live in a town with a university. It would be very difficult to live all by yourself in your first place away from home, but with a group everything is easier.


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
In my family, if my kids are not ready to fly the coop or at least be in full time work or full time education by 18 I will feel like I've failed at my job as a parent. It is my job to help them grow up and be able to function in the world as an adult.

This is exactly how I feel too! It is our job to get them ready; we have 18 years to do it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
My parents still helped me out when I was 19, and even into my early 20's, so I'm not all about "cut him off".

My parents died when I was in junior high, and I had no contact with the aunt and uncle who got custody of us once I moved out at 17. But I did get some financial help doled out in tiny bits by the accountant who managed my parents' accounts.

I'm not saying nor have I heard anyone say that you don't help him AT ALL. I think a good many of us think he shouldn't live with you for free with no job and no schooling. WHEN he has a job or is in full time college, and has someplace to live that isn't under your roof, I'd certainly feel good about helping him financially - like paying for college tuition for example. Of course if he was going on my money, I'd expect a B average. I'm not paying for getting drunk and pulling Ds.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
offer help: resources, job finding, whatever. Hope they want it. I like this option the best - but the young adult has to want it.

-go all tough love-y. Risk ruining your relationship or sending a young perosn who is ill-equipped to handle the world out into it.

I like the idea of offering help too. BUT what are the chances he will want it if his other option is to live for free at your house, sleep in til noon, have a grilled cheese, play WoW til dinner, go out with friends. That is going to sound better to him than "hey, what do you think about getting up at the crack of dawn to file papers or make Egg McMuffins?" The gig at your house is too cushy! Why would he look hard for a job?

And tough love is almost always tougher on the parents than the child (in this case an adult child). It is in the child's best interest - the parent is trying to HELP her son to grow, mature, pull his weight, make his way in the world. If done with love, it will not ruin your relationship! And again, if a 19 year old is TRULY not equipped to handle the real world then some big errors have occured.

The time to think about if your child is appropriately moving down the maturity road isn't the day before they graduate from high school! I once read "is your 9 year old halfway ready to be an adult?" and it really made me stop and think. We need to be making tiny steps towards their independence ALL through their childhood, not just at the very tail end of it. It is our JOB to put ourselves out of a job!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhiteHorse* 
He is perfectly capable of doing it, you have to believe in him.

WH, I liked everything you had to say, but most especially this!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhiteHorse* 
A lot of teenagers are AFRAID of the real world and just avoid it. It's easier to sit there. Once they get both feet wet, it's much easier.

Exactly!! I grew up in a small (1500 people) town, knowing all the same people all my life. Never being in a new situation or having to make new friends once I got through kindergarten. When it was time to go to college, I was petrified. I decided not to go. The most loving thing my best friend's mom ever did for me (and she has done A LOT for me over the last 27 years!!) was to put my stuff in a box, put it in my car, hug me, and send me crying off to the four hour drive to college - where I had the absolute best four years of my life, learned so much, grew so much, made so many new friends, BECAME AN ADULT! It most certainly didn't damage our relationship; I adore her for it. She was willing to put up with my sadness and/or anger because growing up was what was best FOR ME.

I say kids/young adults get one summer to coast - at the very most. I actually took a week vacation with a best girl friend then went to work for the summer. A job, an internship, a volunteer position, traveling would all be acceptable ways to spend that summer between high school graduation and college. But lounging around mom and dad's house playing WoW - no.


----------



## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

I disagree with the idea that "tough love" is "harded on the parents than the child."

We "had it out" with my adult stepkids (my dh's children) a few years ago and they act like they've never recovered. And we did it gently but firmly. We still help them out financially. And they STILL act like they've never recovered.

Good luck, OP. This stuff is so hard to navigate.


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Well, maybe something is stirring in his brain. He was actually up BEFORE ME this morning talking about his plans for the day, which are to apply to a bunch of places on line, since he emailed me his resume yesterday to put into Word format (he can't on his Mac) since that's the format he wants to email it out in. I have been very adamant the last couple of days that he DO SOMETHING, so maybe he's just doing it to get me off his back, but that's fine.


----------



## bumblebeeskies (Apr 15, 2006)

My thinking, is that the WOW addiction is probably most of his problems. Gamers of all ages get into these "bum" situations. I've seen it in many cases. If you didn't charge rent, I would tell you that it was your house and that you didn't have to allow the game playing in YOUR house. However, if he actually starts paying rent, that would be a harder rule to enforce.


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I am so glad he is showing some motivation today







... I read this whole thread last night and it made me so sad.

There are quite a few things that bothered me but first and foremost is the dismissive attitude. I wondered if I was really on MDC. No matter how old somebody is, if you love them you do everything you can to help them be happy and successful, especially your own child. I have never understood the "tough love" body of thought and that is exactly what brought me to MDC in the first place. My suggestion is to spend some time with him, get the communication rolling. You will be able to tell if he is still decompressing from 13 ½ years of school, or if he is having some sort of trouble (depression or addiction). Then you can go from there with love and compassion.

Respect your boundaries and he will too.


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
They may not be complicated expectations, but they are expectations nonetheless. I'm not sure how it is bad....?

Have your read The 4 Agreements? Some very interesting things about expectations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganone* 
There is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him. It's really very sad to watch him throw his life away.

How do you know what is wrong with him? Normally people want to do things and experience things and grow. For some reason this is not happening with him. Has anybody taken the time to find out what that might be? or are we just parent blaming?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
My question for you was how long should a parent be okay with this?

Can I answer? As long as it takes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I am also cognisant of the fact that outsiders often want people to "get over it" long before they are ready. I have an acquaintance who had twins - people were initially helpfull, but soon lost patience with her inability to deal. Grief is another area where this comes to mind. So I think we need to be aware as a society that we often ask people to transition from things before they are ready.

Exactly, thank you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
I am very aware of the deschooling process and how long it can take. He attended school for 13 1/2 years, plus preschool, and I am sure that he's still going through it. But at the same time, I am feeling used. I don't mind if all he does is gets a job that pays him $300 a month so he can pay his rent. If he only works 2 or 3 days a week. But I think he needs to be contributing, not just freeloading.









I feel you &#8230; oh have I been through it. Tell him these things. I know he will listen and he will care &#8230; I think a real heart to heart is in order. Especially if it's presented in an empowering way vs. a shaming way. (that is my struggle).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loveandgarbage* 
does he have social interactions outside of the computer? i would worry about that.

That could be a concern.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
19 is not a child in my house. 19 is an adult and expected to be working, studying or both. Infantalizing our children does them no favours at all.

What if he had a brain injury? Or mental retardation? Or was a quadriplegic? Not saying the op's son has anything this extreme, but you don't know what blocks this kid has and what support he needs to get past them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Interesting. I went from 12 years of school to full time work with a 2 week break. It didn't take me any time at all to be self motivated.

Everybody is not the same.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Well, I hope to avoid that situation by equiping my kids to handle the world BEFORE they get to 18. They already do their share of household maintenance, cooking, cleaning etc. My older daughter already has a couple of paying jobs (freelance database work) my younger earns money as a mother's helper. The older one also handles her own money from what she earns plus clothing allowance and knows how to budget and handle a bank account. These are very basic things, but it means that they already know that life is not a free ride, that you have to put in as well as take. I doubt that at 19 they will suddenly decide that it's cool to do absolutely nothing to contribute to the family or their own upkeep.

The op's son was like this as a younger teen ... you never know what will happen ... things happen ... and if they ever happen in your family I hope you treat yourself with a little more compassion than you are displaying here.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

I agree with Cherie2's responses in the previous post. I also like (and somehow missed) kathymuggle's post that Cherie quoted :

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
I am also cognizant of the fact that outsiders often want people to "get over it" long before they are ready. I have an acquaintance who had twins - people were initially helpful, but soon lost patience with her inability to deal. Grief is another area where this comes to mind. So I think we need to be aware as a society that we often ask people to transition from things before they are ready.


.....and would like to say I agree with kathymuggle (again).


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
.....and would like to say I agree with kathymuggle (again).

lol again, she's a smart one huh?


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Thank guys







I can't deal with him harshly. Finding the best way is hard, but the input here is really helping.

Regarding interactions outside the home - he rarely goes out or has friends over, but he does do it on occasion. And he does yap on the phone with them too.


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

how is your communication? can you go for a walk or a drive and talk about some things? if your not there yet maybe just have some fun bonding time together?


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
There are quite a few things that bothered me but first and foremost is the dismissive attitude. I wondered if I was really on MDC. No matter how old somebody is, if you love them you do everything you can to help them be happy and successful, especially your own child. I have never understood the "tough love" body of thought

Some of us believe that sometimes "tough love" _is_ doing what you can to help them be happy and successful. I've never understood the idea that if you just keep "helping", even though it's not working, then one day it will.

I put in my two bits before, and the OP has to find what works for her family, but I had to respond to this. I've known parents who have used tough love, with very good results. They did it because they felt it was _needed_ for their child's well being, whether they liked doing it or not. (Some of them didn't find it difficult, but some of them did.)

Quote:

My suggestion is to spend some time with him, get the communication rolling. You will be able to tell if he is still decompressing from 13 ½ years of school, or if he is having some sort of trouble (depression or addiction). Then you can go from there with love and compassion.
Maybe. Maybe not. Trying to communicate with me when I was young and depressed _never_ worked, because I invariably felt that my privacy and right to my own thoughts was being violated. My mom had a good sense of when to back off, but some people didn't. My relationship with a couple of them never recovered.

There is no one size fits all approach to this stuff. If tough love doesn't work for a lot of people, that's fine...but I really dislike the attitude that seems to crop up in these discussions that those who do find it effective just don't care about their children or "dismiss" them. They're walking a different path, is all.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

My kids are not that age yet. However, they'd have to be chronically ill to be "excused" from contributing either with chores or with money if they were still living at home at that age.

Even my breadwinning dh helps with chores. It's what you do... everyone who lives in a house contributes to its care.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
You know what's funny? Is if it was that her son (or hypothetical daughter) was going to be a parent then there would be lots of support that a teenage kid/adult can be a great parent, they are capable, and so forth.

But suggest that that same teenage kid/adult stop laying around all day while mom/dad supports a kid lazing around for months non-stop then they are being mean...? Actually, I'm not sure what it is that a parent that would have higher expectations for their teenage kid/adult would be.

So...is it mean to have higher expectations? What is the objection?









:







WELL SAID!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Ruthla, you asked if he has income - no he doesn't. *He owes us $600 right now for rent, $300 for Feb and $300 for March.*

I have kicked around the idea of telling him he can work off the rent by doing chores, but haven't discussed that with him yet. I haven't decided if that would be good or bad.

kathymuggle, you have brought up many of the things that have made me struggle. I am very aware of the deschooling process and how long it can take. He attended school for 13 1/2 years, plus preschool, and I am sure that he's still going through it. But at the same time, *I am feeling used*. I don't mind if all he does is gets a job that pays him $300 a month so he can pay his rent. If he only works 2 or 3 days a week. But *I think he needs to be contributing, not just freeloading.* I don't mean that he should be paying the mortgage and grocery bill and everything, just that *he should be starting to support himself as a baby step toward being independent* some day. *But at the same time I don't want to push him into anything he isn't ready for.* <snip>

But *he hasn't even gotten his butt to karate in the last 5 months (which I pay $60 a month for), not even once*. It pisses me off when I see that money come out of my account each month and know that it's been totally wasted. I have to keep paying till July too.







:

He's known for years that once he was done grade 12, he had one free year at home - no rent - if he wasn't in school. He took one semester - two classes - after grade 12, *which I gave him a break on so his year didn't start till he was done that, which was a year ago Feb 1*. The idea was that he get a job and save money for that year, which he obviously hasn't done.

He's held jobs in the past - he started working at 15 - but has quit every one for one reason or another. He actually worked pretty steadily through high school. It's only since then *he's become a bum*.

He seems to be lacking something that I certainly had as a teen - the desire to be independent and not relying on others for everything.

Ok mama I'm going to be pretty honest here. Why should he have any desire to be independent??? He's got it AWFULLY easy right now! You say you don't want to push him into anything he's not ready for, but he's faithfully held a job since he was 15 and only started to be a bum (your wording) in the last year or so. What exactly would setting a boundary and enforcing it do to push him into anything he's not ready for? In the 'real world', he would have been evicted by now. What do you want him to learn from this experience of living (freeloading) in your basement???

I don't see ANY harm in saying "Son, we love you and we are fine if you live here until we feel otherwise. However, you are freeloading and you have until the last day of March to have a job or you need to live somewhere else on April first. If you do have a job by the end of March, you have until the end of April to have your April and February rent paid. If you do this, you have until the end of May to have your May and March rent paid. After that, all rent must be paid by the 15th of the month. If you don't do each of these things then you need to find somewhere else to be. Period.

And, you'll have to MEAN IT. He might not like it, he might threaten to never speak to you again, but c'mon now...He isn't going to take you seriously because, honestly, you arn't enforcing any personal boundaries...hence the reason you feel used. Of course you feel used, he's using you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annapooh* 
But they can enter into legal contracts, open checking accounts, credit cards, get a lease for an apt. etc at 19. There is a WOW addiction in my home also, but the addict, gets up, goes to work and pays all of our family's bills. Ds plays wow with dad, and he has to pay for half of it with his allowance$, and he is 13. At 19, they aren't mentally ready for all the responsibilities of a 36y/o, but they sure as heck can get off their butt and work/go to school, and pay for their own stuff.

Very well said!


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Concerning the money he owes you....

Even if he lands a job soon - he is not looking at bringing in money til April, by which time he will owe you $900.

Given his age, there is a very good possibility his first job will be low pay and part time. Most people I know start out in low wage, part time service industry jobs. Part time can turn into full time, but it takes time.

If he makes 10$ for 15 hours a week - thats 150 per week gross, 600$ a month - or about $500 net. After paying for his bus pass and monthly rent he is not going to have much money left.

It is entirely possible that the debt, while not necessarily much to you and I, could be overwhelming to him.

Once upon a time, many years ago, I owed the gov't student loan money. They wanted $200 monthly payments and I just could not see myself carving out another $200. I defaulted. (I have since paid them - but I was AWOL for a number of years). Had they asked for a smaller amount or a % geared to income - I would have never defaulted.

As long as he is paying you back (even if it is small amounts) I would be quite flexible in how long he takes to pay you back. Baby steps, right?

Kathy


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
There are quite a few things that bothered me but first and foremost is the dismissive attitude. I wondered if I was really on MDC. No matter how old somebody is, if you love them you do everything you can to help them be happy and successful, especially your own child. I have never understood the "tough love" body of thought and that is exactly what brought me to MDC in the first place.

Respect your boundaries and he will too.

I am one of the "tough love" ones on this thread. How is it dismissive? And I think it is offensive to infer that those of us who wouldn't let our kids use and disrespect us AND THEMSELVES this way don't love them. I think it takes an awful lot of love to put your foot down and deal with the aftermath. We would only do it BECAUSE we love them so much and want them to continue to grow and mature. It is good for them and it is good for us. Some kids do it on their own; some kids need a nudge to get there. You can nudge lovingly.

Not everyone on MDC does GD. Just like not everyone here extended nurses or homebirths or homeschools. Even here on MDC, we don't all agree. And that is ok.

How is allowing an adult child to live in your house without a job or school or any way to pay his way respecting your boundaries? To me, it seems just the opposite. Expecting - and enforcing - that he pulls his weight (household chores, putting money towards household expenses, holding a job or going to school) seems to respect the parents' boundaries.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
What if he had a brain injury? Or mental retardation? Or was a quadriplegic? Not saying the op's son has anything this extreme, but you don't know what blocks this kid has and what support he needs to get past them.

In cases where any of the above was true, I bet you'd get damn near 100% of posts supporting the mom to let her son live with her as long as was necessary. That isn't the case here. Sounds like the OP's son is perfectly capable but enjoys the good life of sleeping in and playing WoW. If he had some issues that would preclude him from going out into the real world, I'd assume the OP would have mentioned them before.

OP, I'm glad things look better today. That is a good start.


----------



## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

I haven't read all the posts, but when I was a teen/young adult, we had to either work or be in school. Period. There was no discussion.

When my brother graduated college, and suggested that he take a few weeks off before he started looking for a job, my mother said, "You've been on vacation for four years. Get a job." He did.

My parents are incredibly generous, and we were always welcome to live at home, and they helped us financially, but "Dad helps those who help themselves," as he said.


----------



## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
In cases where any of the above was true, I bet you'd get damn near 100% of posts supporting the mom to let her son live with her as long as was necessary. That isn't the case here. Sounds like the OP's son is perfectly capable but enjoys the good life of sleeping in and playing WoW. If he had some issues that would preclude him from going out into the real world, I'd assume the OP would have mentioned them before.

I'm enjoying the discussion, mostly lurking. However, I totally want to discuss this, because I have TWO kids with autism, one of whom will never be able to live on her own, the other, eh, maybe with lots of support. We still expect them, at ages 14 and 11, to help with chores. They need support, they need reminders, they need assistance, but the idea that any disabled child should be treated as incapable, is just.....blech. They work to their ability, so we DON'T have adult disabled people who can't even help care for themselves. They are capable. They can choose to help. And it's kind of offensive to use disability as an 'oh well, they can't help it' excuse for not helping around the house.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Concerning the money he owes you....

Even if he lands a job soon - he is not looking at bringing in money til April, by which time he will owe you $900.

Given his age, there is a very good possibility his first job will be low pay and part time. Most people I know start out in low wage, part time service industry jobs. Part time can turn into full time, but it takes time.

If he makes 10$ for 15 hours a week - thats 150 per week gross, 600$ a month - or about $500 net. After paying for his bus pass and monthly rent he is not going to have much money left.

It is entirely possible that the debt, while not necessarily much to you and I, could be overwhelming to him.

Once upon a time, many years ago, I owed the gov't student loan money. They wanted $200 monthly payments and I just could not see myself carving out another $200. I defaulted. (I have since paid them - but I was AWOL for a number of years). Had they asked for a smaller amount or a % geared to income - I would have never defaulted.

As long as he is paying you back (even if it is small amounts) I would be quite flexible in how long he takes to pay you back. Baby steps, right?

Kathy

I don't know where the OP lives exactly, but just about everywhere there's day labor, grocery store stocking, newspaper delivery, burger flipping, sidewalk sign holding, day care worker, processing plants, factory work and much more that would add up to 40 hours a week making about $7/hr. We are in a pretty hard hit zone for the economy and my teens have found jobs paying that and more. Easily.

In fact, at $7 an hour for only 30 hours a week he'd be making 200 a week, or 800 a month. That's a few hundred left over after rent to catch up on bills and have some spending money. Make it 40 a week and he'd bring in another 320 a month.

Grown adults are raising their families on that kind of income. I'm sure a 19yo can manage to survive on it and pay a VERY MINIMAL amount of rent. Where else is he going to find rent, chores, food, internet, karate, and WOW for only 660 a month?

Really now.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ToastyToes* 

When my brother graduated college, and suggested that he take a few weeks off before he started looking for a job, my mother said, "You've been on vacation for four years. Get a job." He did.

.

Ack. Had my father said that 4 years of college had been a vacation I would have been _totally_ offended.

There is a lot of "my parents insisted I get a job" on this thread. Just because our parents did it does not mean it was _right._

It may have worked - but being patient may have worked as well. Most adults eventually act like adults - and do so because they want to - and many do it without being dealt with in a tough love sort of way.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I don't know where the OP lives exactly, but just about everywhere there's day labor, grocery store stocking, newspaper delivery, burger flipping, sidewalk sign holding, day care worker, processing plants, factory work and much more that would add up to 40 hours a week making about $7/hr. We are in a pretty hard hit zone for the economy and my teens have found jobs paying that and more. Easily.

In fact, at $7 an hour for only 30 hours a week he'd be making 200 a week, or 800 a month. That's a few hundred left over after rent to catch up on bills and have some spending money. Make it 40 a week and he'd bring in another 320 a month.

Grown adults are raising their families on that kind of income. I'm sure a 19yo can manage to survive on it and pay a VERY MINIMAL amount of rent. Where else is he going to find rent, chores, food, internet, karate, and WOW for only 660 a month?

Really now.

Snort. Really now yourself.

I will say it plainly: there is a possibility that if the OP's son owes oodles of money to her - it might be too disheartenning and add to his lack of desire to get a job.

Moreover, I think him seeing that working= spending money (and he won't have to beg or bug mom for his WoW) could be very empowering for the OP's son.

I think the way to help him get and keep a job is to lay off the debt repayments for awhile, or go at it gently.

PS. The fact that familes can survive on meager wages is irrelevant. The 19 year old does not have children to support - does he? Apples to oranges.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 

It may have worked - but being patient may have worked as well. Most adults eventually act like adults - and do so because they want to - and many do it without being dealt with in a tough love sort of way.

Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Snort. Really now yourself.

I will say it plainly: there is a possibility that if the OP's son owes oodles of money to her - it might be too disheartenning and add to his lack of desire to get a job.

Moreover, I think him seeing that working= spending money (and he won't have to beg or bug mom for his WoW) could be very empowering for the OP's son.

I think the way to help him get and keep a job is to lay off the debt repayments for awhile, or go at it gently.

PS. The fact that familes can survive on meager wages is irrelevant. The 19 year old does not have children to support - does he? Apples to oranges.

I don't think disrespecting your mother's expectations when you are 19 and capable of self sufficiency is acceptable. AND he's lazing around while she's stuck paying for karate he doesn't go to. AND he's contributing around the house only if he's paid. Why is it that HER feelings and boundaries and expecations are nullified in lieu of HIS supposed right to be a lazy bum? I'm not saying she should do anything punitive, but it is absolutely ok for her to set a clear boundary and enforce it immediately. He's taking advantage of her quite a bit. This has been going on for a YEAR. Not a few weeks...and she's made it abundantly clear what her expectations are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.

Yes. Exactly.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 

In fact, at $7 an hour for only 30 hours a week he'd be making 200 a week, or 800 a month. That's a few hundred left over after rent to catch up on bills and have some spending money. Make it 40 a week and he'd bring in another 320 a month.

You forgot to subtract taxes.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
It may have worked - but being patient may have worked as well. Most adults eventually act like adults - and do so because they want to - and many do it without being dealt with in a tough love sort of way.

Spend a little time reading in Parents as Partners - it will quickly disabuse you of that notion.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
You forgot to subtract taxes.









Well, I rounded down from 210 a week because of that, but chances are he'd end up with a refund anyways, especially since his parents can clearly claim him as a dependent.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Spend a little time reading in Parents as Partners - it will quickly disabuse you of that notion.

Very true...VERY true.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head.

Most people I know do eventually act like adults - in that they are responsible for their own finances and choices.

The only part I disagree with is the last words...."needed to". I don't think a person has to "need to" become an adult to be one. I think it is a natural progression, and most people _want_ to be an adult. I would still stand by my earlier assertion that wht the OP's son needs is time - being 19 and coasting is not at all abnormal in my opinion. If it turns out he is one of those people who "needs" ultimatiums, etc, well - that isn't something to be determined at 19 when there is an excellent chance he will come out of it on his. I would certainly state my (reasonable and achievable) boundaries: "you live here - you get to contribute financially and do some chores" - but I would not go all militant on him.

I am not completely anti-tough love. I tried to look up tough love to get some stats on how effective it was and got nowhere. What I did notice what that almost all references to tough love were in relation to drug addiction or serious (criminal) behavioural issues - none of which the OP's son has displayed.

Peace,

kathy


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Most people I know do eventually act like adults - in that they are responsible for their own finances and choices.

The only part I disagree with is the last words...."needed to". I don't think a person has to "need to" become an adult to be one. I think it is a natural progression, and most people _want_ to be an adult.

I know all kinds of people who have no desire to be adults at all, unless they get the rights and privileges, but not the responsibilities. While I realize that "people I know" is hardly a representative sample, I don't believe that "most" people want the responsibilities of adulthood. Heck - a lot of the time I don't want them, but I do understand that they're the flipside of having the rights. And, fwiw, of the people whose background I know, _none_ of the ones who weren't _expected_ to behave like adults behave like adults - none of them.

Quote:

I would still stand by my earlier assertion that wht the OP's son needs is time - being 19 and coasting is not at all abnormal in my opinion.
Again, I guess we just disagree. I think a 19 year old coasting, especially to the extent describe in the OP is seriously abnormal. In fact, I've only ever known two who did. And, while I'm not saying this is how the OP's son will end up, one of them is now a completely broke SAHM (her ex has been generous with child support, but he has no work right now - both industries he has experience in have dried up to a great extent, at least around here), whose approach to childrearing would have to be seen to be believed (at least her teenage son probably won't be like her, as he's already taking on a fair whack of responsibilities that should be on _her_ shoulders). The other one is my ex - and he's crackhead, who has lived on the streets and gone into detox when he thinks he might die, and gone back out on the streets, etc. multiple times over the last 8 years...and occasionally robbed a house or two when he can't afford his crack. He's clean, at least for now, and still can't be bothered to so much as call his son (that might be _hard_)...and still feels that he was treated unfairly when he got fired from his last job (the one where he embezzled a couple grand on the company credit card, _and_ disappeared for three days with a truck full of a customer's furniture).

I'm very, very nervous when I hear about people who are coasting...and I very rarely hear of one who is coasting to _this_ extent. Even I wasn't this bad...and I was bad.

Quote:

I would certainly state my (reasonable and achievable) boundaries: "you live here - you get to contribute financially and do some chores" - but I would not go all militant on him.
I guess I'm just wondering what you'd do when the boundaries are ignored. I'm not clear from the OP's posts - maybe she's been okay with this - but it doesn't seem like being expected to pay rent has made any impact. I just don't see how boundaries mean anything if they're not being enforced, or how you think the boundaries _should_ be enforced.

Quote:

What I did notice what that almost all references to tough love were in relation to drug addiction or serious (criminal) behavioural issues - none of which the OP's son has displayed.
If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether _drug_ addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether _drug_ addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

This is probably very true. What happens if a videogame addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether _drug_ addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
This is probably very true. What happens if a video game addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?

Depression, anger, lack of direction, lethargy or replacing it with another addiction.


----------



## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
He doesn't sound that bad







:

Seriously - he is not addicted to drugs, hanging out with criminals or being abusive. He is simply coasting a bit. He is 19, not 35. Coasting is OK.

I think early adulthood can be difficult for some people. There is a lot of pressure to get a job, go to school, do something - and it can be hard on people who do not know what they want (or - they do know what they want (WOW), but it is not acceptable to those who love them). My youngest sister struggled with coasting during early adulthood - she did come out of it - but not until she was about 23.

I would probably pay for the next batch of WOW. After that I would ask him to come up with half the cost, and then, perhaps, the whole thing. I think it is often easier (and perhaps healthier) for children and young adults to be slowly weaned of financial "help". I say this as someone who's mommy _did_ pay for her Cable TV at 19 - and yet I have been completely financially independant for many years now.

I agree with this entire post. Everyone needs transition time to become well-adjusted adults.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether _drug_ addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

I think it is different from drug addiction - as drug addiction is physically dangerous and can get one in trouble with the law.

I am _not_ downplaying Wow addiction - I hear that it is affecting marriages on this forum. Were this a man with children - I would be :heck yeah, he needs an intervention. He is not upholding his end of his reposnsibilites due to gaming. But the thing is.....he does _not_ have children he is neglecting. I tend to think people are entitled to their addictions, even if they are not good for them, as long as there are no kids involved.

This does not mean the Op shouldn't communicate her concerns, nor does it mean she shouldn't impose boundaries ("I am not paying for it") -but it does mean, to me at least, that drastic actions (or "tough love" - gad, don't like the term but I cannot think of a better one) are not appropriate.

Kathy


----------



## jeevee3 (Mar 7, 2009)

I am new here and have been reading lots of posts in lots of different forums. I am surprised at how passionately people offer advice who no experience or anything even close to experience in the situation that's being described. Those of you who are arguing most for "this or that" dont even have teenagers?!?
My 15 year old is still a child, yes, but fully capable of understanding what is expected of him. When he doesn't follow through with something, it is because he chose to not follow through, not becaue he is still too young or immature to fully understand what I said. And for those of you that are planning on letting your 19 year old "loaf around" for a year once they get out of high school cause you think they need time to think, or "find themselves" .... good luck with that. Seems to be that's only teaching a person that its ok to not have a plan, or it's ok to expect the whole world to just cater to them while they "find themselves" Geez, people, 19 is not the same as 9!

To the person that posted the problem...
I think that if he's that stuck into the game world, he's being kept from living his REAL life to the fullest. Lots of people can easily get sucked into that, whether it's gaming or just spending all day on online posting forums. I say get rid of the WoW and he'll find he suddenly has lots of free time that he will just naturally fill with other more productive activities.
But there's nothing wrong with letting him know you're there for him. You just have to be more clear about how you are there for him, and how much you are willing to spend in order to be there for him.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeevee3* 
I am new here and have been reading lots of posts in lots of different forums.

Welcome to MDC!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeevee3* 
I am surprised at how passionately people offer advice who no experience or anything even close to experience in the situation that's being described. Those of you who are arguing most for "this or that do not even have teenagers?!?

Keep in mind that we were all teenagers and remember what did or did not work for us.

Also, I've been pretty passionate about a lot of things in my life, even before the experience.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I think it is different from drug addiction - as drug addiction is physically dangerous and can get one in trouble with the law.

I am _not_ downplaying Wow addiction - I hear that it is affecting marriages on this forum. Were this a man with children - I would be :heck yeah, he needs an intervention. He is not upholding his end of his reposnsibilites due to gaming. But the thing is.....he does _not_ have children he is neglecting. I tend to think people are entitled to their addictions, even if they are not good for them, as long as there are no kids involved.

I absolutely disagree. If he were living on his own, and prepared to deal with not eating, because he was too busy WoWing to cook, or living in a pit, because he was too busy WoWing to clean, or becoming homeless, because he was too busy WoWing to earn any money, that's one thing. In that case, he's the one dealing with the consequences of the addiction he's "entitled" to. In this case, he's not - his mom is. Being "entitled to one's addictions" in this situation means being entitled to use his family has unpaid servants, and I don't believe that anyone is entitled to do that.

Quote:

This does not mean the Op shouldn't communicate her concerns, nor does it mean she shouldn't impose boundaries ("I am not paying for it") -but it does mean, to me at least, that drastic actions (or "tough love" - gad, don't like the term but I cannot think of a better one) are not appropriate.
Okay - so she can impose a "I'm not paying for that" boundary about WoW. I think we're all agreed on that. What I'm not understanding is what other boundaries she can impose. Can she say she's not going to let him live there rent-free? Sure - but unless she's actually prepared to kick him out if he doesn't pay (eg. "tough love"), then there is no boundary. She's already stated that he "has" to pay rent, but he's not doing it. Where's the boundary?


----------



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned, the consequence of not paying his rent now will be that when he DOES start working he'll owe every cent he makes to me till he's caught up. I think kicking him out would be tantamount to telling him I think he's not worth my time and that I don't really love him unconditionally. I honestly cannot think of any circumstances under which I would ever kick a kid of mine out onto the street with nowhere to live, unless they were putting the rest of the family in danger somehow. That is far, far from the case here. I don't see it as tough love, I see it as insulting and degrading.

He knows he has to get a job, he does want to, he just lacks the motivation. I want to help him get the motivation, I don't want to destroy my relationship with him.


----------



## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Make sure you let him know that, in those exact words, "I dont want this to ruin our relationship". It will go a long way. Its a tricky road to navigate with them at this age, isnt it?







Its a fine line parenting but at the same letting them go. Respecting who they are as a *person* yet still wanting to take care of them. Gosh, I just want to scream with you out of frustration.









And its a fine line for them too - wanting to be on their own, making their own choices, yet still wanting mum and dad to lean on. And thats okay, as long as everyones needs are respected.









I dont know if you read my suggestion earlier, but do you know someone who's hiring? A friend of a friend?

I think the key is sticking with whatever you decide. The back rent, the cutting off WoW, etc. You can do it!


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
As far as I'm concerned, the consequence of not paying his rent now will be that when he DOES start working he'll owe every cent he makes to me till he's caught up. I think kicking him out would be tantamount to telling him I think he's not worth my time and that I don't really love him unconditionally. I honestly cannot think of any circumstances under which I would ever kick a kid of mine out onto the street with nowhere to live, unless they were putting the rest of the family in danger somehow. That is far, far from the case here. I don't see it as tough love, I see it as insulting and degrading.

He knows he has to get a job, he does want to, he just lacks the motivation. I want to help him get the motivation, I don't want to destroy my relationship with him.

Fair enough. I wasn't really addressing your problem, anymore - just arguing with another poster, which is really counterproductive. I wish you all the best and hope it works out okay.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fair enough. I wasn't really addressing your problem, anymore - just arguing with another poster, which is really counterproductive. I wish you all the best and hope it works out okay.

Same here.









good luck, Bedhead.... I think all posters, regardless of stance, want the best for you and your son.

kathy


----------



## Labbemama (May 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
This is probably very true. What happens if a videogame addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?

It gets very ugly.









I call myself a WOW widow. My dh has substituted one addiction, quitting smoking, for another. Well, actually I think it was having to go outside in the snow and put his WOW campaigns on hold that finally made him kick nicotine. Seriously.







He's been trying for years but he can't be away from WOW long enough to smoke or go to the restroom. It's like that episode of South Park.

From what I can tell WOW is a retreat from stress, can serve a powerful social function from the guilds that serve as substitute "Families" and avoidance of unpleasant things (Such as RESPONSIBILITY) like chores, work, a nagging wife like me. LOL. He also gets a sense of achievement from it. Like making level 80 and getting rewards. Finding a rare spirit beast.

But yeah, my advice is cut the internet service access to him off. Password your server so you can still use it.

I had a brother who was along for a free ride and I insisted he have a job and/or go to school to live here and gave him a deadline and the assistance he needed to get both. He did get a job. It's harder now though to find a job. but ANY job is better than no job. Volunteer, I don't care. Anything but WOW.









I have kicked him out 3 x. He's making some decisions that could go either way, but it was a GIRL that finally got him really moving. Unfortunately that girl who was really good for him--also kicked him out once she saw how sloth-like he was. But it was good for US when he got mad at us and decided to mooch off her for awhile. She'd take half his check and made him pay half the bills.

We were dumb and let him move BACK in.
Once they are out don't let them come back!!!

So- he's got another girlfriend--that he was bringing back HERE. (Which overnight guests was against the house rules) He got her pregnant. I told him they couldn't be having sex here /having sleepovers here--especially not with my kids home and this girl being sooooo Loud everyone knew.







We tried to have an adult conversation. They got all mad and moved out in a huff. Poor girl ended up having a mc. I thought they would get their "house" in order, save up, get jobs with insurance...finish school..but no.

The whole time he lived with us he would sometimes go out all night drinking and partying with his guy friends. I couldn't say anything about that. He is still doing that now. This girl is kind of a party girl too.

It seems that the girl is now pregnant (Planned. )And she plans to stay home too after it's born and my db is going to support all 3 of them on Walmart wages when they can't afford their bills now before a baby and
it could be worse...They could all be living here. LOL, but I have my limits and I will only support ppl until their 21st bday.

From this I have learned to enforce house rules and to make sure the kids know 21 is it.

My oldest can't wait to move out. Everyday I'm thinking how can I make sure she is ready for that?


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
I have TWO kids with autism, one of whom will never be able to live on her own, the other, eh, maybe with lots of support. We still expect them, at ages 14 and 11, to help with chores. They need support, they need reminders, they need assistance, but the idea that any disabled child should be treated as incapable, is just.....blech. They work to their ability, so we DON'T have adult disabled people who can't even help care for themselves. They are capable. They can choose to help. And it's kind of offensive to use disability as an 'oh well, they can't help it' excuse for not helping around the house.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you - and respect that you are raising your kids to their highest potential. I was responding to the idea that an adult child who was quadrapeligic or otherwise truly unable to live independently at the age of 19 wouldn't be forced to move out of the house like many of us are suggesting for the OP's son.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I would certainly state my (reasonable and achievable) boundaries: "you live here - you get to contribute financially and do some chores" - but I would not go all militant on him.

I am not completely anti-tough love. I tried to look up tough love to get some stats on how effective it was and got nowhere. What I did notice what that almost all references to tough love were in relation to drug addiction or serious (criminal) behavioural issues - none of which the OP's son has displayed.

I think you are taking the term tough love too literally. When I ask you for a kleenex, I don't care if you hand me a Target brand tissue or an actual Kleenex. I mean - and I assume most on this thread mean - tough love not Tough Love. I am not talking about camo pants and meal rations from bags and ten mile hikes. I am talking about the same thing you are - a 19 year old adult paying his way, pulling his weight.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
As far as I'm concerned, the consequence of not paying his rent now will be that when he DOES start working he'll owe every cent he makes to me till he's caught up. I think kicking him out would be tantamount to telling him I think he's not worth my time and that I don't really love him unconditionally. I honestly cannot think of any circumstances under which I would ever kick a kid of mine out onto the street with nowhere to live, unless they were putting the rest of the family in danger somehow. That is far, far from the case here. I don't see it as tough love, I see it as insulting and degrading.

He knows he has to get a job, he does want to, he just lacks the motivation. I want to help him get the motivation, I don't want to destroy my relationship with him.

Again, I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying kick him out - on the street - today. I'm saying you have (insert reasonable amount of time here - anywhere from two to four weeks seems reasonable to me) to either enroll in college or get a full time job. Starting today, he helps the household run by doing chores like everyone else. If he doesn't WANT to get a job or go to school, then find an apartment or a friend to live with. No one thinks he should sleep on a park bench.

I understand you don't want to damage your relationship with him. I agree that that is certainly worth preserving. You said you want to help him get the motivation to get a job. The only thing you can do is hold him to reasonable ADULT expectations - helping around the house (no pay for this!) and having either a job or be in school. If he refuses to comply and you do nothing, then you are not helping him get motivated; you are enabling him to loaf around for another year or permanently. He will be an adult when you force his hand.


----------



## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

I haven't read all the posts and I don't have any teens yet (duck) so sorry if this has been covered. However, Iwas a teen once, as were all my friends. Soneone mentioned a European perspective so here's one. In this country, you are an adult at 18, you can vote, you can work, you can own property, you can marry. You can drink or smoke if you want to. Well you can smoke at a younger age than that, and work part-time, have s*x, and make many of your own medical decisions from 16 onwards as 16 is considered a minor rather than a child.
When I was growing up when you left school at 17or 18, you went to college, got an apprenticeshp, or you worked. I dare say volunteering would have been acceptable too. When youb were workign you paid your way to bills etc at home and you took adult responsibilityfor chores. No my parents did not want to push me out the door at 18 to live on my own if I didn't feel ready to. For most Irish or English parents that is a truely foregn concept and many welcome their grown iup children back into the homeafter college if ther work means they can live with the parents. The 'policy' in other European countries seems to be "out the door by 24" As in, by the time you have graduated 18 months, from college you should be self supporting, But the fact that it is very difficult to afford a mortgage at that point is changing that mindset. Just as I wouldn't have pushed my LO out to sleep in her own bed at the magical age of one if they weren't ready for the transition, I wouldn't push an 18 year old to leave IF they really weren't ready. Personally, think that for many teen adults, they are SCARED. Yes, the world is a scary place if you are used to the safe confort and routine of school, the basement , friends, the Wow, internet etc. Doing interviews, getting a job, an unfamiliar enviroment, strange poeple, time keeping, negotiating with banks, taking financial responsibility etc. These are scary comcepts as is the thought that you might fail at them. I do agree tho that paying for his Wow and giving him money for smokes has got to stop. I don't smoke so maybe I ve a bias in that regard tho.
As for coasting, I think it depends entirely on the person. I know gyuyswho coasted at 19 who are still coasting at 50! And guys who coasted a little at 22, after college, who are senior excs and professors now.
I also wonder if yhe could be depressed. Does he have friends he could set up a rental arrangement for his own place with?


----------



## JaclynAnne (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
How can I make him need to get out the door and get a job?

I think you need to realise that you can't *make* him do anything. My advice to you is to stop doing things for him. I wouldn't call it tough love for you to stop enabling his behavior. He wants, WOW, he pays for it himself. He wants $$, he earns it from a job. He wants his room cleaned, laundry done, dinner cooked....I think you get the point. He is an adult and you are babying him. It doesn't have to be done in a mean way, just a simple you"re an adult now, I'm going to start treating you like one. Nobody likes nagging someone to do something, nobody likes being nagged. Tell him you love him and are there for him, but you won't enable him.


----------



## gromero (Apr 14, 2008)

I just thought I would chime in here with two different points of view.

When I turned about 16 or 17, I was constantly reminded by my family that when I turned 18 I would have to move out, take care of all my housing needs and bills all by myself, all the while never being taught those skills. I always had someone doing my laundry for me, cooking and cleaning for me, filling up my gas tank for me, so on and so on. I did move out after graduation (I was still 17) but to an Aunt's house. I was close enough to her that I could tell her I was terrified and didn't know what to do or how to do it, so she took me under her wing. I had expectations placed on me, such as I had to pay rent, help clean up after myself and the family, go to work, etc. But all of it was gradual for me. She gave me two months rent free, x amount of time to find a job, etc. That timeline was such a lifesaver for me. I didn't feel so rushed by everything. She also told me that she couldn't expect me to change overnight but that I was an adult and it was time to get my sh*t together, and that if I didn't meet the timelines then I would be needing to move out.

Now, I have my dad who is almost 50 years old, still living at home with my Grandma (his mom), living on her couch, no car no license, drives her car around, bums money off her for his smokes, she cooks for him, he refuses to work but complains about it 24/7. He is verbally abusive to my grandma, and just an all around miserable person to be around sometimes. I love my dad, but my sister and I have both had to promise each other that when my grams passes we will not take my dad in. My grams was such an enabler for him, it was/is infuriating. She didn't want to push him away, didn't want to place too many expectations on my dad, the list just goes on.

In hindsight, she should have told him either you need to do 'xyz' or see you later, and that allowing him to remain has helped turn him into perptual 16 year old boy stuck in a 50 year old mans body, but shoulda coulda woulda right?


----------

