# mama's instinct - wwyd? (long)



## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm a single mama to my 14 mo old DD. We share a room in a co-op house with nine other adult housemates. It's been a fantastic experience, and as my aunt said to me the other day, "so do you love it here, or do you _love_ it here, or what!!!". I was like, "I know, I *love* it here."









Which is why this current situation is so difficult. There is one housemate, M, he's the odd duck of the group (there's always at least one, right?) When DD and I first moved in I was very impressed with our housemates for the way they tried to get to know her, even the ones w/no previous experience with children. M is really the one that has come the furthest, from being very very unsure of how to talk, distract, play, just be around her, to entertaining her very well and enjoying her company. Enjoying her company TOO much, I'm starting to think.

It is accepted in the house that M has some personality issues. He has very few social skills. He's kinda a conspiracy nut. He doesn't let go of topics very well, will bring up someone's dirty dishes many many times, but rarely to the dirtydish-er him/herself. Very passive aggressive.

His attention paying to DD has escalated in the past month or so. He can barely speak to the other housemates if DD is in the room, he gravitates to her immediately upon entrance. During a house meeting last week DD was sitting on the floor next to me just absently tapping her hand against a hand drum. He sat on the floor next to her and began playing on the drum with her, encouraging her and praising her. I had to ask him to stop playing with her since we were having a meeting.

He seats himself next to her (on the other side of her is where I'm sitting) at all meals. He _raves_ about her to housemates and visitors alike, "she really likes to feed me," as dd pushes something towards him, etc. He sounds like a proud parent. He has begun, it seems, to think that he knows her as well as, if not better than, I do. When she is pointing and saying "dat", I may or may not know what she wants, but many times it's not something that she can play with (you know, like my vitamin bottle) and M will say (in a very indignant voice) "I think she wants the vitamins." The unspoken is "so why aren't you giving her what she wants, you meanie, you"

Now any of this could really just be misunderstanding, except a housemate who has lived with him for more than a few months told me about a house cat that he became obsessed with. The cat did belong to another housemate, and when he (sadly) got run over by a bus, M berated the entire house, particularly the cat's direct owner, for not taking good enough care of the pet. The housemate that informed me of this story sees the same obsessiveness for DD as M had for the cat, and I do too. The cat loved M, and I feel like M was so desperate for unconditional love that he began to feel that he and the cat had a _special_ relationship. DD likes M a great deal, and it's obvious to everyone, including him.

This could still all be nothing really, I could possibly let it go. But just recently M has been increasing his physical affection of DD. He picks her up and says "hi, give me a hug". He pets her head and hair and back when they're sitting next to each other at the table - literally, petting, stroking, her hair. Two nights ago he did this and I had to restrain myself from pushing him away from DD and grabbing her out of the booster seat. My stomach literally _turns_ when he touches her. It's pure mama instinct.

I can barely stand the sight of him interacting with her, and handle only slightly better being in his presence at all, due to the creepy-crawlies that I get. As I said, we live in a co-op, everything is decided by group. We have meetings multiple times a week, we eat and do chores and grocery shop together.

I have spoken with three of the other women here, and they respect my feelings on the issue, in fact, feel exactly the same way. M has actually done _nothing_ wrong. I just feel like there is a sickness just waiting to thrive in his affection for DD, and I can't just sit around waiting for him to do something wrong, kwim?

So my plan is to speak with each house member individually (except M) and explain that I never ever ever want M and DD to be left alone together. I would like all of them to subtly intervene whenever they see M 1-obsessing over DD or 2-physically interacting with her.

I know that at some point I need to confront M, and am not sure how to do it. I am not a confront-y type person, in fact, I usually burst into tears within the first couple of sentences. But of course, being a protective mama bear makes me stronger.

So if you made it all the way through this, and have any advice, please let me know. Am I being too cautious? Not cautious enough? Should I just grab my DD and get the hell out of here? Other than this one housemate, it's a perfect environment for us. But is is realistic to think that I can NOT go crazy feeling creeped out at every moment and worrying about my DD? Am I putting my DD at risk by staying here? Do I have grounds for trying to get M ousted from the collective, or would I have to wait for him to _act_ upon his creepiness in order to have "proof"?

I am so confused, and scared, and kinda pissed off. Help!!







:


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## Bex80 (Feb 8, 2004)

While I feel like I should reflect a bit, I say to follow your instincts. You can NEVER go wrong. Sure, you *might* come off overprotective or neurotic (although I think that you are neither) but better safe than sorry.

This is much easier said than done, but have you considered tellinghim to back off? I know this would need to be approached very delicately, but at the same time with all the firmness in the world. M needs to know that this behavior is NOT okay with you. You are your daughter's only advocate (which I KNOW you already know...







) and this dude needs to back off.

I would still talk to the others about you not wanting your dd to be alone with M, but I also think you should tell him his limits as well. It helps me to put the blame on myself, like degrade myself to spare others' feelings but still get my point across. Like, "Hey M, I know I am going to sound sooo stupid and overprotective, but I am really uneasy about how much time/interacting/attention/etc. you focus on dd."
Even that's kinda lame, but like I said-easier said than done, though I believe it should be done.

I wouldn't pack your bags yet. Considering his state of mind, do you think that maybe you could get him a kitten? Seriously.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

A few thoughts:

I wouldn't try and get him kicked out of the co-op because he gives you the creeps. That doesn't seem fair at all.

When you first met M, what did you think of him? What was your gut reaction? I ask because I wonder if you always thought of him as creepy or if this is an increasing thing as his attention to your dd increases. Before he physically interacted with her, did he creep you out?

If the guy is a social misfit, and got super attached to a cat, then he could be doing the same thing to your dd, much easier to bond with a small child who will give unconditional love than adults, who are much more difficult to get to know.

Now, even if M is totally harmless, that doesn't mean he should be touching your daughter when you don't want him to, and there isn't any reason for him to be alone with her.........so, I don't see why those two issues can't be managed. Just don't leave him alone w/her; and address the touching issue. Hopefully that will solve the problem.

Have you read Gavin De Beckers books? I recommend them. "The Gift of Fear" and "Protecting the Gift".

HTH

Kristi


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## Angierae (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:

Should I just grab my DD and get the hell out of here
Honestly, while reading your post everything inside me screamed, YES!

That being said, I have never lived in your kind of environment. Please trust your insincts above all else! Your daughter seriously could be at risk.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

*sigh* well thanks a bunch, ladies. LOL. I have one "he seems creepy but maybe it can be fixed - buy him a kitten", one "you might be overreacting, deal with the two dealable issues and go from there" and one "run, run, RUN!".

So I'm right where I began. Keep 'em coming (I should do a poll!!).

Oh actually, I wanted to address something:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bex80*
M needs to know that this behavior is NOT okay with you. You are your daughter's only advocate (which I KNOW you already know...







) and this dude needs to back off.

I would still talk to the others about you not wanting your dd to be alone with M, but I also think you should tell him his limits as well. "Hey M, I am really uneasy about how much time/interacting/attention/etc. you focus on dd."

Ok, so this is kinda where I am, too. But how do I tell him that he's interacting with DD too much when other ppl in the house interact with her even more (babysitting while I'm at work, bathing her, changing her diaper, etc)? And I wish I could blame it on the male/female thing and make it seem like I'm just more comfortable with only females being physical with DD, but there are two males in the house who are fanTASTic with DD and I don't want to put an end to that.

So how do I tell him his limits without making him feel like he's doing something wrong? (if he feels "put out" by our talk, it's going to make for a _very_ long year in the house....)

thanks for your advice ladies!!


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole*
When you first met M, what did you think of him? What was your gut reaction? I ask because I wonder if you always thought of him as creepy or if this is an increasing thing as his attention to your dd increases. Before he physically interacted with her, did he creep you out?

I got _kinda_ creeped out, but in general felt that he was harmless. That was before he glommed onto DD - now I'm not as sure if he's harmless, so the creepiness factor has shot up. I'm not saying that I know he's a pedophile or anything - the not-harmless aspect might just be on his side, actually, as in, it's not healthy for him to have this attachment to my DD.

Quote:

If the guy is a social misfit, and got super attached to a cat, then he could be doing the same thing to your dd, much easier to bond with a small child who will give unconditional love than adults, who are much more difficult to get to know.
This is exactly what he is doing.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

My gut instinct from reading your post is he's creepy and its not worth risking your daughter's well being to stay in an otherwise great situation.

Just the fact that you came here with your concern shows that you _are_ concerned. I may very well be off base, but he sounds possibly dangerous to me. With my kids, I'm not one to give a person the benefit of the doubt.

Its easy for me to say better safe than sorry and you should move or talk with the other housemates and see about having him move. You sound like a resourceful enough person to make the right decision - what ever that ends up being.

Good Luck Mama, I'm sorry you are in a challenging situation.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Personally, I'd listen to my instinct and move out. I dont think I'd feel comfortable anyway with that many adults around, it would just be too difficult to monitor and keep tabs on, especially if you are leaving her when going to work etc. I'm rather cautious about such things. I'd worry about what happens if you leave her with someone else, they get called out, and M takes over, or someone else's friend/boyfriend/whatever. The whole situation just screams potential danger to me. But then, I'm probably very conservative about these things. I'd just feel safer in a more limited environment where I had more control over who interaceted with my child.

I second the recommendation for reading Gavin De Becker's books and trusting your instincts.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

I am absolutely NOT trying to fan flames here, but his behavior toward your daughter and his social misfitness has potential "abduction scenario" written all over it. If your housemates and/or houserules don't support you getting him out TODAY (and I'd throw in a restraining order to keep him away from you and the house), I'd move immediately. He has no concept of appropriate social boundaries and his obsession with your daughter is escalating.

And if you have housemates who don't appreciate the level of creepiness about the situation, how can they be trusted to keep him away from your daughter when you're not there?

Don't confront him either alone or in a house meeting. From what you've described, he won't get it.

Best thoughts to you in this difficult situation.


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Not that I'm making this any easier, 'cause I'm gonna throw *another* opinion into the pot...

Being somewhat social-skills-challenged myself, I chose the direct route.

I was in a very "democratic" although also very imformal household with several adults and children in residence at varying times, so during one of the occasional, informal group-gatherings (with the problem-person not present) I just said "X gives me the creeps. Is there somethign I should know about him? I'm asking because at this stage, I'm creeped out enough that it's him or me. *I* would obviously like to stay, but the creep-factor is just way beyond my comfort level."

Some of the housemates made excuses for Mr. Creep, some voiced support for me.
I was the newby, so I figured the decision would be in his favor.

Ultimately, it came out that most of the others thought he was a creep too, but no one had had the balls to SAY so, and everyone thought that everyone else liked him, so no one had said anything. Not really a health situation in the long term.

He was asked to leave, which he did with poor grace, and we changed the locks, and stayed a bit nervous until we heard he'd moved out of state.

If it was my *kid* in question, I'd act a lot more quickly, and probably less tactfully. Something along the lines of screaming "Get away, you freak!"









Not saying that's a *good* idea, you understand... just that it's how I am.


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## sun-shine01 (Aug 9, 2002)

What a yucky situation. No real advice just my thoughts. He sounds like my brother who has mental illness. He lives a 1000 miles away but goes through phases of obsessing about my dd who is 22 months. He will call at least twice a day to talk to her on the phone and if she is not interested in talking he grills me as to why she won't talk to him. When he is with her in person he will constantly want to hold her and my stomach turns. I feel sorry for him but yet my mama radar is on high when he visits and I dread seeing him at Christmas this year only because of the way he acts with my dd. I know I could not live in the same space with him.

I agree with the poster who said that he probably finds it easier to relate to a child rather than to adults.

I hope some of the other mamas here can/did give you some valuable advice. Good luck to you.


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## bionicsquirrel (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama
So how do I tell him his limits without making him feel like he's doing something wrong? (if he feels "put out" by our talk, it's going to make for a [i*
very [/i] long year in the house....)


He is doing something wrong! I wouldn't worry about hurting the guy's feelings...alot more than feelings are at stake here considering your daughter.

I have lived in many group housing situations and am currently living in one right now, though with extended family. In my experiences, the creepiness only gets worse and your distaste for the person will grow like a cancer. Sure, his obsession might be caused by some sort of mild disability or social ineptness, whatever, it is still no excuse.

Absolutely, either get you and your child to a safer home, or confront person and the house and try to have him kicked out of the co-op. Honestly, why would anyone there want to live with him? Do they do it because they feel sorry for him? This is not an option for you. You need to take care of yourself and your dd.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I would move.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Normally I would say to try and get him kicked out but he seems like such a nutty nut that I would kinda be afraid to do that, so if I were you I would start looking for another place to live.


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Only you know what is right for you. Trust your instincts!

(Now if it were me, I'd be gone in a wink).


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I would move as well. I was molested as a child and I can guarantee you that if it does escalate to that point your daughter will be damaged forever. I honestly don't understand why you would continue staying in a situation when your instincts are telling you its not safe. NOTHING is more important than your daughter's safety. I agree with the other poster as well who said this could be a potential kidnapping situation as well. If you stay in the house but confront M on his behaviour he might react by taking your daughter. If he is that creepy, you never know. Would you rather say, "Well I might have overreacted," or "I wish I'd listened to my instincts and this would never have happened." In my personal experience mother instincts are never wrong.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
M has actually done _nothing_ wrong.

Do you really believe that? Because you just wrote a very long post listing EXACTLY what he has done wrong.

Have you read _Protecting the Gift_ by Gavin DeBecker? If not, READ IT! His whole book is about what you have talked about here: knowing that something is wrong but not being willing to admit it. She is your daughter, you know if she is in danger, pay attention to the signs (your intuition, which DeBecker says is our strongest defense). If you don't protect her, no one else will.

I don't say these things to make you feel bad. I say them because that is what _Protecting the Gift_ is about, and I believe that the author is right.

Heed you intuition and get your daughter away from him!

Namaste!


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

I agree with the majority of the moms here who would move out if it were them. I got a horrible feeling from reading your posts about this guy. I would never, ever want him to touch my child again. I think it's unfair that you should have to move because of someone else's creepiness, but I agree that it might make the situation worse if you stay and he leaves.








Not an easy thing to deal with, but I encourage you to listen to that voice that is not just whispering that there's something wrong - it's screaming at you. There's a reason that you are getting such a strong reaction from seeing this man with your child.


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## Bex80 (Feb 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
I have one "he seems creepy but maybe it can be fixed - buy him a kitten"

Uh-oh, I really hope that didn't come across as a flippant response. I didn't mean get him a cat, it'll resolve itself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
Ok, so this is kinda where I am, too. But how do I tell him that he's interacting with DD too much when other ppl in the house interact with her even more (babysitting while I'm at work, bathing her, changing her diaper, etc)?

I didn't realize that! That changes a lot in my mind. I am not very experienced in any of this and it seems like some other posters are. I was just trying to find some sort of compromise so you wpuldn't have to leave because you said you really liked it there.









It sounds like, though, either you or M need to leave? I'm so sorry this has been happening to you. As much as it sucks, I would most likely leave and be deemed an overprotective mom than live with possible regret.


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## crunchymamatobe (Jul 8, 2004)

I have lived in a co-op where, before my time, there was a situation similar to the one *Silliest* described. It sounds like M is creepy enough that other housemates might be picking up on his creepy vibes. Discuss it with them. Always better to be honest with the housemates than worry about who's creeped out by who and who's hanging out with your DD when you're not there. Maybe plan a covert housemeeting for when M will be away?

I'd hate to see you feeling like you have to move out, as it sounds like a perfect environment aside from the M factor.


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## L.J. (Nov 20, 2001)

I would definitely follow your instincts and do something. This is not the kind of situation where you want to look back and say, "if only I had done something."

I also think that asking others to help will give you a false sense of security. No one will care about or watch over your little girl like you. Sometimes something simple, like a phone call for them, will be enough to distract them & for them to forget what they agreed to do. I would not trust that others will keep M and your child separate.


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

If I were you, I would listen to my instincts and move ASAP. I agree with other posters that your other housemates, even though they may be wonderful with your daughter, aren't able to provide the same level of protection to your daughter as you are. In this situation the stakes are too high to take any chances, IMO. M has too much access to her. I fourth the recommendation for Gavin De Becker's book.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Thank you mamas for all your support and validation.n I've never been a mom before, I don't have any friends IRL who are moms, and I wasn't sure if I was just being overly-over-protective about the situation.

*sigh* I really really want to stay here, as it truly is ideal. We eat only organic food, have no toxic chemicals in the house, recycle like mad, have a compost pile, are politically active and active in the community as a whole, support organizations that are eco/human-rights/animal friendly, practice primarily holistic & homeopathic treatments, etc etc etc. If we do not live here, I will not be able to afford (time-wise and financially both) to continue many of these living philosophies.

Before moving here, DD and I lived alone outside of town, and the isolation was not good for my mental health. I am combatting severe depression and if I am not directly involved, drawn out, if you will, I tend to spiral downward quickly and just sleep all day.

So I guess what I'm doing now is a bunch of wishful-thinking that the whole negative situation simply didn't exist. And in the meantime, I'm having a confidential meeting with the collective president in order to discuss what rights I have to instigate getting M removed from the house. We decide everything collectively, which means that if one person (other than M) blocks the proposal, we go into mediation, etc, in order to resolve the conflict.

I can't move ASAP anyways, due to lack of funds, so this will at least get the ball rolling to possibly be able to stay here and buy me some time to look somewhere else as well.

On the upside, the national co-op meeting is the first weekend in November (in Michigan - fun!) and one of the workshops I'm participating in is parenting in the co-ops. So hopefully there will be other mama coopers there to offer advice as well.

Thanks sooooo much again!


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

Quote:

If we do not live here, I will not be able to afford (time-wise and financially both) to continue many of these living philosophies.
That is a major drag, along with the loss of outside stimulation for you and your depression. But...I'm sure you agree that your daughter's mental and physical well-being are very important (In fact, I don't even have to write that sentence. I know it's the top priority for you!) Perhaps there's some way you can have a check-and-balance system for your depression. A 12-step group? Of course, getting a babysitter might be a problem. I've heard there are good on line meetings though. Maybe something like Al-Anon would be good for you. My mom's not a child/wife, etc. of an addict, but she still gets a lot from Al-Anon meetings.

Maybe do some praying/meditation/creative visualizaton about this matter. Imagine M getting a wonderful job transfer to another state that is effective immediately, and a great hippie-mom with a wonderful child taking his place in the co-op. Keep imagining positive things for M, mental health for him, happiness and be very specific about imagining him moving out of the co-op and onto better things. I've been amazed at how powerful this sort of thing is.








You're doing the right thing here by listening to your maternal instincts here, even though it is difficult. I admire your ability to face this unpleasant situation. A lot of moms can't face it and that's when kids get into trouble. My heart breaks for those mothers who were too afraid to face the reality.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*

This could still all be nothing really, I could possibly let it go. But just recently M has been increasing his physical affection of DD. He picks her up and says "hi, give me a hug". He pets her head and hair and back when they're sitting next to each other at the table - literally, petting, stroking, her hair. Two nights ago he did this and I had to restrain myself from pushing him away from DD and grabbing her out of the booster seat. My stomach literally _turns_ when he touches her. It's pure mama instinct.

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I just wanted to say that this is something straight out of Protecting the Gift. It doesn't matter that he hasn't done anything wrong. Your instincts are telling you that you need to keep DD away from M. And do you really feel comfortable about abdicting that responsibility to the others in the co-op? And yes, you might very well be wrong. But in which direction would you like to err? I don't know how co-ops work, but if he doesn't leave, then I would be considering leaving myself.

I don't want to freak you out unnecessarily, but I saw an Oprah where a convicted and self admitted child molestor was on the show talking about what he had done. When asked why, he said that it was a sickness, an attempt at finding love somewhere, and feeling like he was able to find that love by molesting his stepdaughters.

Baby's crying so I gotta go. If you do nothing else, pick up a copy of Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker today. I do believe you need to act on this feeling that you have. We have instincts for a reason.


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

...what the majority of the moms said...










Reading your post from an objective, removed POV had me screaming 'Take your baby and run!'. I know that actually LIVING in the situation has many checks and counterbalances to the intuitions you posted that keep you from actually doing that.

I do agree that maternal danger radar is one of the most potent senses in the world, and that your subconscious is colouring in a picture for you. Now, whether or not this person will actually DO something is besides the point, really. The fact is that in life, as a parent, you do whatever you need to do to protect your child, regardless of hurting someone's feelings, looking like a paranoid/overprotective mom, etc. etc. *That includes proactivity and prevention.*

What's troubling to me are the personality traits you mentioned and his history of becoming obsessive about the cat. It's sad that he's socially challenged, but that's NOT *your* problem - it's his, and don't let him play out his neuroses on your child.

I'm a child protection social worker and putting on my clinical hat...I'd be highly suspicious and trust your gut.

HTH

Dee


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

"Don't let him play out his neuroses on your child."

Yep.

I hope the group meeting works out for you and he gets booted. If not, I urge you to leave as soon as you have the resources. Perhaps live in town? Make a plan for social situations and stimulation for your depression?

I've lived most of my dd's life as a single mom. I know it's hard. We've had to make a lot of concessions and not live as naturally as we would like. It sucks. But, as I don't really have to say, your daughter safety is the most important thing in the world.

I'd also like to seventh (or eigth, or whatever) reading Protecting the Gift. It is a very important book, and I believe that every parent should read it. And I don't say that about any other book!


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Get

your

baby

away

from

him.

For sure. Fast.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I would leave. ASAP. Is an all-woman collective living situation an option?


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

I have to agree with everyone else:
trust your instinct.
you should not be living in same house with M. You leave or see what you can do about ousting M.

to be honest, when I first read your story, I did not think "yuck, M is a pedophile." I DID think "he's going to abduct her DD so they can "be together". I don't tell you that to freak you out, but as justification that your instincts might not be wrong - if we feel like that just reading about M.....

Maybe you'll find another fabulous living situation at the co-op convention! Good luck to you!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Difficult situation for sure. I think you're on the right track looking into seeing if he can be removed and talking to the other adults you trust. I DO think that they will be helpful since they seem to sense the same issues that you do. At this point I would make sure that all adults you're comfortable with are aware of your feelings and that your daughter is always with one of them that you trust. See what can be done as far as removing M and go from there.

good luck!

-Angela


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I would leave. ASAP. Is an all-woman collective living situation an option?

I'm in Iowa, honey.







This is the only collective option anywhere around. *sigh* An all-woman collective..... you're making me drool.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I agree, trust your instincts. And until you do, you need to still talk to him as well as the other house mates like you planned.
I do have one ?
How does your DD react to him? Does she go to him, or does she shy away?


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Again... I must agree with reading the "Gift" books. I read them recently so they're fresh on my brain.

It really struck me when the author wrote how people could offer a laundry list of why they feel uncomfortable and then sum it up by saying "I have no idea why I felt so uncomfortable". The other thing he says is that with this type of situation, the answer is in the question. Everything you described in your post is your answer. You already know it.

I'm a single momma too so I know all too well how hard it is to manage housing, but either he's gotta go or you and babe have gotta go.

Want to come to Chicago and start an urban co-op?


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

I'm just curious & being nosey...

Does your house have procedures in place for dealing with conflict between members-like a group council? Rather than you having to go and ask for protection from each house member, wouldn't they all meet together as a group with this guy to discuss the problem and give him a chance to be heard? So that it puts it out in the open to discuss and everybody can work together to come up with a solution by consensus? Maybe it would include some sort of progressive plan that would eventually lead to his removal if he couldn't follow the decision of the group that he would have to have a hand in developing and thereby agree to? I think that might be a kinder way to handle it IF you don't feel your DD & you are in any danger and could lead to this guy's own growth, if possible, YKWIM? (But, I agree with everybody - if you sense danger you should seriously consider moving out - even temporarily till they get rid of this guy.)

I haven't been in an co-op community, but I would think that stuff like that would need to be clearly laid out and agreed to when you move in & would be essential for its health & survival, right??


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

Ok I am agreeing with everyone one here and your post gave me the hebejeebees, don't ever leave your daughter alone with him. Go buy Protecting the gift, read it in it's entirety and then give it to some of the other house members. Hopefully they can then see that his behavior is an indicator of an abuser. Then maybe you can stay and he will leave, but after reading that book your thread just screamed of a situation that turns into a molested or abducted child. So please do whatever it takes to keep your child safe. No environmentally "ideal" living situation is worth your children's safety. But like I said hopefully if you show them that book, they will understand that your are very validated in not wanting M to live there, or be around your child and you can stay but if that can't happen then get the hell out because the group obviously doesn't truly have your child's safety at a the forefront either.


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## whimsy (Aug 6, 2004)

A couple of thoughts....

1. Odviously at least one other person in the house saw red flags or they wouldn't have told you about the cat. Can it be presented as "A couple of people have become uncomfortable............"

2. Always trust your instincts. I ignored mine once and I have never forgiven myself for it. The fact that I was more concerned with someone elses opinion than I was my daughter.


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## SmilesALot (Nov 20, 2001)

Hi

the kind of co-op situation is described is a new concept to me. While i do agree that the situation makes me very uncomfortable, i feel sorry for this person M also. Please do check with the child molester's database. If he is not one, and deserves some empathy, see if you can do it in the most possible civil manner if it comes to evicting him from the co-op as the only choice.

I totally agree that protecting your daughter is the #1 priority in this situation if your stomach churns to watch them interact.

Prayers for you to get out of this situation soon!

Peace & Love!


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
I'm a single momma too so I know all too well how hard it is to manage housing, but either he's gotta go or you and babe have gotta go.

Want to come to Chicago and start an urban co-op?









YUP!!!














I'm a city-lovin' gal myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
How does your DD react to him? Does she go to him, or does she shy away?

She goes to him. She talks and talks and talks to him, leans around people to get his attention, etc. I've never actually seen her reach out to him before he reaches for her, but she does willingly go to him when he holds out his arms. *shudder* sorry, I just got the heebies again.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bippity*
Does your house have procedures in place for dealing with conflict between members-like a group council? Rather than you having to go and ask for protection from each house member, wouldn't they all meet together as a group with this guy to discuss the problem and give him a chance to be heard? So that it puts it out in the open to discuss and everybody can work together to come up with a solution by consensus? Maybe it would include some sort of progressive plan that would eventually lead to his removal if he couldn't follow the decision of the group that he would have to have a hand in developing and thereby agree to? I think that might be a kinder way to handle it IF you don't feel your DD & you are in any danger and could lead to this guy's own growth, if possible, YKWIM? (But, I agree with everybody - if you sense danger you should seriously consider moving out - even temporarily till they get rid of this guy.)

yup, that's exactly what we have in place. But I'm still not sure how to go about bringing it up _as_ a group topic, kwim? that's why I'm meeting with the co-op president tonight, to see if she has some ideas on how best to do this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilesALot*
Hi

the kind of co-op situation is described is a new concept to me. While i do agree that the situation makes me very uncomfortable, i feel sorry for this person M also. Please do check with the child molester's database. If he is not one, and deserves some empathy, see if you can do it in the most possible civil manner if it comes to evicting him from the co-op as the only choice.

I really don't have problems with M otherwise, like I said, he's the odd duck, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have positive aspects. He's very fun and entertaining to talk to, he is involved in the co-op, etc.... if I didn't get the heebies, I wouldn't have an issue with him at all. I do think that he has an illness, at least a disorder, and do want to treat him with compassion. I don't want him to feel like we're all ganging up on him, kwim?

wish me luck with my pres tonight. I'm printing out this thread so she can see some more mama thoughts....

love
crystal


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## Bellasmom (Mar 13, 2004)

I'm in Iowa City myself, so I know how hard it is to find affordable living in this area. But I think that us mamas only get the heebie jeebies for a reason, and I would seriously consider moving away from this person if you'r meeting with the pres doesn't go well. Maybe check the New-Pi boards for people who need a roommate? Best of Luck to you,
Angela


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

nak

get the heck out of there!!!

don't leave her sight...i would not trust other people to take care of her!

i took care of adults who were molested as children. it brands them for life.


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## sharksmum (Dec 31, 2003)

nak

I think you get heebiejeebies for a reason too. If there is no way to get him out, I would try and figure out how I could leave.

You should check out co-abode.com. It's a service for single moms to find other single moms to live with to share costs.

Good luck in this time
Jess


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

nak

i also agree with the people who said that it should be handled in as painless a manner as possible for M. not so much because my soul is a deep well of compassion







: as because again, if you read Gavin de Becker's books, he points out that if a potential stalker-type feels persecuted or publicly insulted it can trigger escalating behavior. so do try, if you get him kicked out, to make it maybe about something other than "you're a freak and nobody wants you around".

honestly, it would probably be safest just for you to leave & make sure he never gets your new address ever. because, if he is made to leave and leave behind the focus of an obsession, that in itself could push him to something desperate like trying to abduct her so they won't have to be apart


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## Avonlea (Jan 21, 2002)

GET OUT!

If you are at work and someone is supposed to be watching your daughter and he is in the house..how long do you think it would take for him to pick her up and walk out the door and not come back? What if one of the baby sitters decided that he is really " not that bad" and left your baby alone with him for a half hour ?

I suggest you start asking around now so that you can go and stay with someone, even for a temporary basis. Get him out of the co-house if you can and CHANGE THE LOCKS once he is gone.

LISTEN TO YOUR INNER VOICE!

IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL ILL WHEN HE TOUCHES YOUR BABY, THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT FEELING !!!!!

In all honesty, what does anyone in the house know about this mans past history? Was there ever a criminal back ground check done? Does he have a record somewhere? What medications does he take ? What is his mental disorder?

He does not own you or your daughter, and he needs to backoff and respect that she is YOURS! If he shows anger or is in anyway incensed and seems to be getting sneaky or ugly ..GET OUT ! Infact, have a plan to leave in the back of your mind. Have a bag packed before you even go to this meeting tonight . Have a safe place to go for a few nights... be prepared. He cpould get very ugly and annngry. Make sure you are ready for that if he is confronted.

Also, if he cries...thats too bad. The man who molested me used to cry about how everyone was so 'mean' to him, no one understood...etc. It was all a part of the game.. DO NOT GIVE IN TO HIM! BE STRONG!!!!!

I wish you all the best, and yes..please read ( and share with your house mates ) "Protecting The Gift". It is imperative that you read this book. ALL of you....because you must know what is out there and what to do about it.

I wish you the best, because no matter how this turns out it won't be easy.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilesALot*
Please do check with the child molester's database. If he is not one, and deserves some empathy

Except that the sexual offender's registry is only for those who've already been caught. Most molesters have between 30 and 60 victims before they are even caught. Relying on the registry would be a false sense of security.

Namaste!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Except that the sexual offender's registry is only for those who've already been caught. Most molesters have between 30 and 60 victims before they are even caught. Relying on the registry would be a false sense of security.

Namaste!

It would however, give them a clear cut reason to have him removed from the living situation.

The more I think about this thread, the more upset and concerned I feel. This is not just some creepy guy at the park or a questionable next-door neighbor. This is a man who *lives with* you and your daughter. By staying, you make him "family." Ugh.


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## SmilesALot (Nov 20, 2001)

dharmamama, that is a good point. I was meaning that if he is found in that database, then that is cause for immediately running out. If not, she should still do what she needs to do in order to protect her daughter in this situation, not accomodate something that makes her feel creepy. I hope this mama can resolve it in the best possible manner.

Peace & Love!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I lived in a meditation center for almost a year. Not quite the same as a co-op, but as a community we were extremely comitted to working with people. It was near impossible to be kicked out as long as a person expressed a "willingness" to work towards change.

One of my roomates developed a rather bizarre fixation with me, at a time when I was vulnerable (depressed). She went out of her way to harrass and stalk me. I repeatedly appealed to mediation, but mediation could not solve our problem, as it was based on her deep personal problems.
I ended up fleeing the center when I could no longer tolerate being threatened and abused.

My point of the story is that alternative living communities are wonderful, but often NOT equipped to deal with people who are seriously troubled.

I am also someone who was sexually abused as a young child - don't risk your daughter. It isn't worth it. It is much better to be wrong about him than to have your daughter harmed.

Its such a shame he is a part of your community. Its sounds like a great environment otherwise.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
It was near impossible to be kicked out as long as a person expressed a "willingness" to work towards change.

.....

My point of the story is that alternative living communities are wonderful, but often NOT equipped to deal with people who are seriously troubled.


Yes, this is exactly what my house is like. I don't really think ousting him is possible - if it were to happen, it would be after a long and arduous and emotionally draining process that would involve the whole house (10 adults).

I spoke with my pres this evening, she was sympathetic and offered some ideas on how to go about "confronting" M without actually confronting him. I do know that I need to give him the chance to respect the boundaries and limits I am comfortable. If I still cannot handle him being near my DD, then I will react further.

For now, I am speaking with my individual housemates about the situation and will put "the baby & you" on the agenda for our next house meeting. I have a plan for what angle to take with the talk, and hopefully M will get the hint.

I want to clarify that M doesn't creep me out for my own self, and didn't at all before he began to get so attached to DD. So hopefully if he is not touching DD (not picking her up, not giving her hugs, not petting her hair), the heebies will go away. I guess if the heebies _don't_ go away even if he _is_ following the limits I set out for him, that's a good sign to give up and get out. *sigh*

thanks again, and I'll keep you posted. Oh, and I'm gonna go buy that book tomorrow.









crystal


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
I do know that I need to give him the chance to respect the boundaries and limits I am comfortable.

Why? The only thing you NEED to do is protect your daughter. For some reason I certainly don't understand, you seem to be willing to risk her safety to stay in this living situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
So hopefully if he is not touching DD (not picking her up, not giving her hugs, not petting her hair), the heebies will go away. I guess if the heebies _don't_ go away even if he _is_ following the limits I set out for him, that's a good sign to give up and get out.

OK, HappyHippieMama, flame me, put me on ignore, or do whatever else you feel necessary, but you are copping out on your responsibility as the child's ONLY protector and advocate. Despite what EVERY OTHER POSTER has said, you are determined to stay in the co-op. So stay. God help your daughter.

Before anyone says, "oh, Trish, you're being so harsh and judgmental and ...", let me just say that you're damned right I am. It's necessary given the facts that we know.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004*
OK, HappyHippieMama, flame me, put me on ignore, or do whatever else you feel necessary, but you are copping out on your responsibility as the child's ONLY protector and advocate. Despite what EVERY OTHER POSTER has said, you are determined to stay in the co-op. So stay. God help your daughter.

I would never flame you or put you on ignore simply for your losing patience with me.







I don't particularly like the rather juvenile over-righteous guilt-trippy tone of your post







, but that's ok.

You just need to understand that all this has only been recently come to a head. My mind is still reeling from just the _fact_ that I am getting the heebie jeebies, let alone comprehending the weight of that intuitiveness, or figuring out how to resolve the situation.

"Despite what EVERY OTHER POSTER" has said, it is my responsibility as the grown-up, as my "child's only protector and advocate", to make *clear-headed decisions and to not act rashly.* I am most certainly not copping out of that responsibility.

Packing our bags and moving out in the middle of the night would not be good for her both in the short-term (lack of consistency, loss of a routine, yanking her away from her home) or the long-term (since the stress of it would damage my ability to function at work and school and we would financially not be able to survive).

So for now, I am doing what I am *capable* of doing. I am trying to come to terms with the situation, while making sure that my daughter is safe (she has not left my sight for a single moment today) in the meantime. Yes, I absolutely am treating M with compassion, will continue doing so, and don't believe that doing so is in direct opposition with keeping my DD safe.

I am not determined to stay in the co-op, although I would prefer it. In fact, I checked out co-abode.com earlier this evening.







What I _am_ determined to do is make a rational choice in the midst of an irrational circumstance.

Again, I will keep you all posted. Thank you everyone.








Goddess help me and my daughter, indeed.

Love
Crystal

PS - My pres seconded the notion of a kitten for M. I'm going to bring it up to the other house members.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Not trying to argue with you, Crystal, but one of the major points of _Protecting the Gift_ is that we hamper our ability to protect our children by trying to be reasonable and rational about these things. The author states that that reason is the single biggest reason that people don't heed their intuition, which he says is what needs to be listened to because it is right.

Namaste!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Crystal,
I happened across this thread yesterday and waited to post anything until I found out what came of your meeting with the co-op pres. I strongly endorse the general feeling among most posters that you need to heed your intuition and get away from this man one way or another. I have a couple of specific thoughts:

My primary concern about staying in this house any longer than absolutely necessary is not that your vigilance will lapse and she will be in direct danger. I don't think you would let that happen, especially after reading all of the warnings from the great women on this board. Rather, I would be very concerned that every day you stay, M increases his fixation and obsession with your dd. If he *is* someone who could abduct or otherwise harm your dd, then there will probably be a point of no return for him. Before that point, he will be very unhappy about being separated from your dd. He may rave and even stalk a bit, but will eventually give up and get fixated on something else. After that point is reached, however, he will have convinced himself that he *needs* your dd and she needs him. He may become willing to do terrible things to ensure that outcome. (I'm not saying this is what *will* happen, only that it's a possible worst case scenario. Still, I think you should plan as if the worst case *is* possible.) If it were my dd, I'd be concerned that I get her out of his sight and stop feeding his obsession before he reaches that tipping point -- long before, if possible. After all, you can't keep her in your sight forever, especially as she grows and becomes more independent.

I applaud that you are looking into alternative living situations. Given what I said above, I obviously think you should remove yourself to another location as soon as you can find a place -- I understand not wanting to go out into the street, but find somewhere to go *ASAP*, even if it's not ideal. You can always move again to someplace better when you have the safe space to do a thorough search. Perhaps you could continue to work with the co-op and attend meetings (without dd) during the time you are (hopefully) temporarily away -- have an understanding that you are leaving only for safety's sake and that you would return if and when the other residents agree to find a way to have M leave. I'm not sure that is a safe suggestion -- it might be better to just cut all ties there -- but it would certainly be safer than continuing to live there while all this is sorted out.

Quote:

We eat only organic food, have no toxic chemicals in the house, recycle like mad, have a compost pile, are politically active and active in the community as a whole, support organizations that are eco/human-rights/animal friendly, practice primarily holistic & homeopathic treatments, etc etc etc. If we do not live here, I will not be able to afford (time-wise and financially both) to continue many of these living philosophies.
I can totally understand why you love this community! However, a few months or even years spent living a more "conventional" lifestyle will not kill your dd nor scar her for life, while a few more weeks or months around M may do just that. I *know* you know this and care about your dd. I say it only to drive the point home and help remind you, in a "rational" way, of the choices involved here.

Quote:

I want to clarify that M doesn't creep me out for my own self, and didn't at all before he began to get so attached to DD.
Are you being completely honest with yourself? Here's what you said previously in response to someone who asked if he gave you the creeps when you first met him.

Quote:

I got _kinda_ creeped out, but in general felt that he was harmless.
Don't ignore the "kinda" -- your instincts were telling you something before you even had reason to listen to them.

I'm so glad you are going to read DeBecker's book. Perhaps when you do you'll see why so many of us are so concerned for your dd.

Quote:

I do know that I need to give him the chance to respect the boundaries and limits I am comfortable.
I don't think you do need to give him a chance. He's already violating boundries. Just because you haven't articulated them in so many words doesn't matter. Surely you have been giving off "uncomfortable" vibes, no? "Giving him a chance" only gives him the chance to become more attached to your dd in an unhealthy and dangerous way.

I'm so sorry you are having to face this. It s***s that you may well have to leave a wonderful living situation due to someone else's sickness.







But life isn't fair all that often, and keeping our kiddos safe is a parent's #1 job.


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## Avonlea (Jan 21, 2002)

Thank you for saying that Stephanie, you are right on target with your words.

Please don't linger over this or try to apply too much thought or logic to this situation. He has problems that are beyond your control. A civil discussion is NOT going to solve his mental health issues.

Please, for your daughters safety and well being, get out of there. Get out. Don't look back. She comes first now. es, the living situation ( otherwise) is great...but at what costs?

Are you willing to have your daughter hurt, molested, abducted, MURDERED.. just so you can live in a home with environmentally friendly cleaning supplies and homoepathic remedies ? Are they going to bring your daughter back from the dead if he takes her for a walk and hurts her somewhere?

You have to listen to your instincts on this one. Sometimes as Mothers we have to let go of the 'civilized' part of our humaness and go back to the Primal Mother inside..the one that has her hackles up and her teeth bared. This is one of those instances. Listen to that Primal Mother within. Listen to her and obey her.

This man is NOT going to change, and the co op is not going to make him leave. So, you must go. Thats it. You must get your child and yourself away from potential danger. I am sorry because I know it will create a certain havoc with in your lives..but int he long run, thats for the best for her safety. Even if you have to live somewhere which is not perfect and not as close to your goals of being earth friendly. Thats all and good..but your daughter comes first, even before the earth, your child comes 1st.

My father has mental health issues. Our home was tense and scary growing up. he molested me and he abused me. This man has no ties to you. he is not her father, he has NO RIGHTS! You can leave this behind before he takes her away from you or decides to start sticking his fingers into her vagina or smothers her with a pillow because if HE cannot have her to love than no one else can either...

Get out. Start making a plan to go now, and just go. Don't look back. Never give anyone in that house a number to reach you at or a enw address. I am sorry it has to be that way, but it does. he is sick. Mental illness can and is unpredictable, you don't know what runs through the courses of his thoughts. It could be awful.

I am glad that you are reading the book, and I hope it helps you have the strength to listen to your Primal Mother.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

I haven't read all the replies, but, like an early poster spoke about, I'm in the middle of reading "Protecting the Gift".

My initial reaction is that you have all the information in your original post to make a good decision for yourself and your daughter.

You have a very long post describing overly friendly behavior:

Quote:

Enjoying her company TOO much, I'm starting to think.
There are some indicators of an unstable personality:

Quote:

It is accepted in the house that M has some personality issues. He has very few social skills. He's kinda a conspiracy nut. He doesn't let go of topics very well, will bring up someone's dirty dishes many many times, but rarely to the dirtydish-er him/herself. Very passive aggressive.
He also has a history of reacting poorly to other people: Your story about your roommate's cat.

He is escalating the relationship with your daughter: picking her up and demanding hugs, petting and stroking her.

Please remember: He is not her father, not her uncle, not your husband, and has no connection with you other than living arrangements. He has no claim on your daughter. His relationship to her is only on your sufferance. You have all the power here. He has none.

Meanwhile, even though, you are trying to convince yourself otherwise:

Quote:

Now any of this could really just be misunderstanding

Quote:

This could still all be nothing really, I could possibly let it go.

Quote:

M has actually done nothing wrong.

Quote:

Am I being too cautious?
What do you really know about this man? What are the criteria to being accepted in this coop? Do you have to pass a background check? Provide a driving record? Give references (if so, were they checked?)? Give a past history (are sure he's telling the truth?)?

But what is really telling to me is the _very_ strong language you have used to describe your intuition:

Quote:

Two nights ago he did this and I had to *restrain myself* from pushing him away from DD and grabbing her out of the booster seat. *My stomach literally turns when he touches her.*

Quote:

I can barely stand the sight of him interacting with her, and handle only slightly better being in his presence at all, due to the *creepy-crawlies* that I get.

Quote:

I just feel like there is a *sickness* just waiting to thrive in his affection for DD,

Quote:

I know that at some point I need to confront M, and am not sure how to do it.

Quote:

But of course, being a protective mama bear makes me stronger.

Quote:

I can NOT go crazy feeling creeped out at every moment and worrying about my DD

Quote:

Am I putting my DD at risk by staying here?

Quote:

I am so confused, and scared, and kinda pissed off.
And the most compelling quote I have:

Quote:

*Should I just grab my DD and get the hell out of here?*

You wouldn't be writing if there wasn't already a problem. I think, if you listen to what your intuition is telling you, you'll be fine. I really hope you do listen to your gut, because it is really telling quite a story! The answer to your questions are in your own post. Protect your daughter, protect yourself. You can find a new place to live that is just as nice. You really can.

Bec


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
I do know that I need to give him the chance to respect the boundaries and limits I am comfortable. If I still cannot handle him being near my DD, then I will react further.

crystal


That's the thing, though. You really don't need to give him a chance. Please don't give him the chance. It shouldn't even be a question whether a chance should be taken away! Think for a moment what happens if you give him a chance, and he does poorly. Your daughter is the one that will suffer.

Bec


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

I hate that this thread is still going on, and everyone is still trying to convince you to do something. I was really happy to hear that you were looking at other living arrangements - did anything look promising? I did find this in Iowa (hopefully that's not where you already are







:
"River City Housing Collective provides the opportunity for cooperative living, an economical housing alternative.

Contact: River City Housing Collective
802 E. Washington St.
Iowa City, IA 52240
319-337-4733 or 337-8445"
and
Housing Clearinghouse (319) 335-3055
172 Iowa Memorial Union
The University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA 52242

I couldn't tell if the latter was for University students only, but the website did say this "lists housing complexes and apartments (including cooperative housing);"

Or how about checking with one of the food co-ops I found for your state - maybe someone there would have a lead:
Frontier Natural Products Co-op
New Pioneer Bakehouse, Coralville, Iowa
Oneota Community Food Co-op, Decorah, Iowa
New Pioneer Co-op: Iowa City, Iowa

I also read that you were planning on reading Protecting the Gift. If nothing else, please start that book now. Right now. Then come back and read your posts. Dharmamama pointed out the danger in your current train of thought very well.

Good luck again, Crystal....


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Inaction in this situation will lead to trauma. Take it how you will. I"m not saying move or have him kicked out. Just do something other than read a book about it.

Here's a little lesson I've learned from my dog, who makes her boundaries very clear. I have a very big, old, gentle dog. She is a breed that is considered by some to be "vicious". It takes her a long time to warm up to strangers. This is something that took a little getting used to, because I'm a very outgoing person. But I respect her boundaries and her need not to be everyone's happy dog friend.

So one day, when I was pregnant with dd #1, I was standing outside waiting for the students in the hiking class I was leading to show up. A man approached me and Snuffer. I got a funny feeling from him. I don't know what it was. Snuffer jumped up, puffed up her chest and started barking at him. She's very protective of me, especially when I'm pregnant or sick. She made it clear that he needed to back away slowly and go away. And he did. He went and complained to Campus Security. When an officer showed up she saw that Snuffer was leashed and calm. The officer was able to approach Snuffer and me and ask what happened. I just said that my dog had a bad feeling about that guy and told him to leave. The officer laughed and said my dog had good instincts. The man had been asked to leave campus before because he was following students and harrassing them. Now I had a bad feeling about him, too, but I'm a human like him, and I ignored my instincts. My dog didn't give a rat's ass about human niceness or social graces.

The very first time you got a bad feeling about this man's behavior toward your child, your inner rottwieler or mama bear was telling you something was wrong. Don't justify it. Don't make nice. Don't question your instincts just because you want to be polite and want everyone to feel okay about a very bad situation!!!! Once people cross the line with your children you owe them nothing, not even a kind word. Do whatever you can to keep him away from your baby, and don't rely on your housemates good graces to do it. You are your child's guard dog, her advocate, and the *only* one who is responsible for keeping distance between this man and her, even if you live in a co-op.

And for heaven's sake: better safe than sorry. Wouldn't you rather be wrong about this guy than put your baby in danger?

Hugs to you! This must be very uncomfortable and difficult. Good luck!


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
So one day, when I was pregnant with dd #1, I was standing outside waiting for the students in the hiking class I was leading to show up. A man approached me and Snuffer. I got a funny feeling from him. I don't know what it was. Snuffer jumped up, puffed up her chest and started barking at him. She's very protective of me, especially when I'm pregnant or sick. She made it clear that he needed to back away slowly and go away. And he did. He went and complained to Campus Security. When an officer showed up she saw that Snuffer was leashed and calm. The officer was able to approach Snuffer and me and ask what happened. I just said that my dog had a bad feeling about that guy and told him to leave. The officer laughed and said my dog had good instincts. The man had been asked to leave campus before because he was following students and harrassing them. Now I had a bad feeling about him, too, but I'm a human like him, and I ignored my instincts. My dog didn't give a rat's ass about human niceness or social graces.


Your dog doesn't know all the little unwritten cues of human interaction. But, he is an expert to your reactions. He likely read your cues as pack leader (read the fear written on your body) and went to protect you.

You are right, though, he didn't care about being polite. He saw you seeing a threat, and he acted appropriately.

The OP needs to stop worrying about this man's feelings, and stop denying he is a threat. Looking the other way is only going to harm her daughter.

Bec


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

*


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## allbrightmama (Aug 8, 2004)

Can you help M to develop a healthy relationship with your daughter? Can you teach him how to behave appropriately with her? Is there a way to gently help him see that there are boundaries you would like him to respect?

NO! NO! and NO!

His obsessiveness has already gone way too far. He thinks he knows her better than you do. He cannot interact with other people when she is around. He needs more and more from her. You see in their relationship a "sickness waiting to thrive." That is exactly what the many mamas who have posted before me see too. This obsession is not healthy for your daughter or M. You are not doing him any favors by enabling this relationship and you are ABSOLUTELY putting your daughter at risk. I am not saying you are throwing your daughter in front of a train but you are letting her play on the tracks and that train isn't going to be able to stop.

M doesn't let go of topics very well. Right now his favorite topic is your daughter. He is not going to let go of her very well. You asked WWYD? I would leave quickly. I would only explain that living there right now didn't feel right for myself and my daughter. Make a clean break. I would beg and borrow my way out of there. Is it fair? No. Would I mourn what my living situation could have been? Yes. Is it easy to pick up and leave your home? No. Is it worth it? A thousand times yes.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

wow, hippiemama...































i don't have any advice at all, i just feel so awful for you. i can see that you are trying so hard to do the right thing. wishing you strength and wisdom to do it, whatever it is.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't know this man, and I haven't read all the thread, just your first page and the 3rd and 4th. I have to agree, yes, you have an instinctual urge to do something, and I will always advise to follow an instinct.

However, I have issue with the judgement this man who is unable to defend himself has had put upon him in this thread. It makes me feel ill, actually. I know intellectually impaired/socially inept men who gravitate to innocents and they mean the reverse of HARM. Many people are scared of my next door neighbour who is a very scary looking person - a la elephant man - and he has had judgements placed upon him his whole life. He has had parents whip their children away for breathing the same air because he seems a threat.

The children he has been allowed relationships with, including myself as a child and now my daughter are only enriched by his close - if strange - attention. It has broken my heart my whole life the treatment he has had to face.

Something to keep in mind - the person most likely to "interfere" with a child is the person who SEEMS least likely to. When a man is very open with his affections this doesn't mean he is going to molest a child. It also doesn't mean he won't, but be CAREFUL not to jump to the wrong conclusions.

I agree to go with your instincts, and that is my advice here. This other stuff about ASSUMING he is on his way to molesting or interfering with this child has no justification.

I say this in defense of men who cannot defend themselves. And to the men who have been accused of wanting to molest a child because they showed a feminine kind of affection toward them.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Hmm. You've got a lot of different opinions going on this thread. I kind of see all of them.
What would I do...hmm...I'm in your shoes as myself:

I am the most non confrontational person around. I am, seriously. I'd really rather *leave* then confront M. I don't want to leave.
So, I have two choices:
Leave OR Confront M.
If I confront M and he reacts badly, then I know I'll need to leave OR find temporary housing until HE gets kicked out. If I confront him and he seems like he gets his feelings hurt, but understands completely, opens a dialogoue about what I find appropriate & inappropriate, seems willing to put me at ease- then maybe I was just being a tad jealous or misjudging him.

If I didn't confront M, then honestly....I'd have to say that I would have to prepare that if something horrific happens, I'll have to live with that the rest of my life and if that something horrific isn't murder, DD will have to live with it the rest of her life too.

So, which do I choose? Leaving? Nah. Confronting M? HELL YES.
Atleast *I* can say I gave a chance, *tried* to keep my ideal living circumstances, & helped keep my daughter out of harms way.

Cause organic apples ain't gonna make up for any harm that befalls my daughter. Better to live on Ramen Noodles with safety and security.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Well said.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Something to keep in mind - the person most likely to "interfere" with a child is the person who SEEMS least likely to.

I have to completely disagree with this statement. As Gavin DeBecker states in his book, one of the most frequent things you hear from the parents of victims is, "He seemed like such a nice man!" If you know what to look for, then no one seems "least likely" or "most likely" to harm your child. You know what to look for and you trust your instincts. BeDecker lays out clear signs that a person has the potential to be dangerous, and this man has displayed many (if not all or most, I don't have the book in front of me) of those signs (based on what the OP has told us).

I understand your concern about judging someone who can't defend himself and I appreciate your story about your neighbor. But the bottom line is (and will continue to be) that parents are the best protectors of their children (no one else will do it for them) but that ability is hampered when parents are too concerned about social niceties, fairness, and logic rather than trusting their instincts. Sometimes people will be unfairly suspected. If that's the price I have to pay to keep my children safe, I will.

Namaste!


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
BeDecker lays out clear signs that a person has the potential to be dangerous, and this man has displayed many (if not all or most, I don't have the book in front of me) of those signs (based on what the OP has told us).


I do. They are:

Quote:

Forced Teaming
Charm and Niceness
Too Many Details
Typecasting
Loan Sharking
The Unsolicited Promise
Discounting the Word "No"
I see at least 3 of these in the HippieMama's OP.

Bec


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I read your entire post and it gave me the chills.

No, I cannot say that this man will do your daughter any harm. But his behavior is inappropriate, and it could certainly be a sign that he will eventually do something worse.

He is already teaching your daughter that she does not have control over who touches her body, and that her mom may not have control over that, either. Very bad messages here.

I just attended an excellent sexual abuse prevention workshop. I was skeptical about learning anything new, as I had read "Protecting the Gift" and other good books on the subject (though PTG is by far the best one), but I was surprised at how much more I learned.

The woman running the workshop was a police officer who works in the sex crimes unit. She divided child molesters into several groups and defines each. One group was the "introverted pedophiles" and were defined as those who:

1. Lack the interpersonal skills to develop relationships with adults and so will molest children

2. Because of this lack of skills, will usually target very young children - babies and toddlers, even - because they are incapable of "seducing" older children.

3. Often use "accidental touching" as a way of molesting.

4. Often use affectionate touching as a way to desensitize the child to touching that becomes gradually more sexual in nature.

Honestly, I'd keep your daughter away from this guy. He may be harmless, but if he is not, you would never forgive yourself. Either tell him point blank that you do not want him touching your daughter anymore or get out of there. And while it stinks that you may have to get out of there, that solution seems better to me (unless you can get him out of there), because it sounds nearly impossible to completely prevent contact between him and your child.

Please keep us updated - I'm going to be worrying about you and your daughter!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm having such trouble with this situation. How is it ever okay to allow a strange and questionable man to *live with* one of our kids?


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Calm, thanks for saying that. I agree that you do not have to demonize M in order to protect your daughter. Of course your daughter comes first and you should follow your instincts and there has been a lot of really good advice here about that, coming from knowledge and personal experience that I don't have. But I see you trying to treat M w/ respect and dignity, and I just want to say I think that is admirable. He gives you the heebie-jeebies and you should keep your daughter away from him - but that does not mean presuming him guilty of molestation. Um, I'm just repeating what Calm said.

I also like what KatienDwayne said, that is probably what I would do too. But that is just me.


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

I don't think the majority of posts here are demonizing M. I think we are all concerned that hippiemama had and continues to have a strong emotional/instinctual response to M being around her daughter and that there is a reason for that. I think the majority is trying to tell hippiemama not to ignore her own instincts. She's there - she's the one watching M interact with her daughter - she's the one who instantly did not get a good feeling about M's behavior.

She lives in a house with other guys - she said that other people take care of DD and I'm guessing they show affection to her DD, too, but they don't freak her out. Why is that?


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Yes Yes Yes, Alaska, I agree w/ all that 100%.

Hope my post was not misunderstood.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I think this is the first thread I've ever started that got so much attention.... it's nice to know that so many people care....









So I bought PTG yesterday and read it all in one sitting (thank goodness I'm a fast reader LOL). It _is_ a wonderful book, thank you everyone for suggesting it.

There is a woman on co-abode who lives nearby and is an AP momma, she sounds promising as a housemate, although 13 someodd years older than me. Of course I can't get ahold of her unless I'm a paying member of co-abode, so I'm looking at other options first.

For the PP who did research and found co-ops in my area..... *wry grin* you found mine. It's the only collective in my town. We shop at the only co-op grocery in town. So thank you, but unfortunately..... *sigh*

Calm I always admire your posts, and thank you for your story about your neighbor. That is *exactly* how I feel about M, that I want to make sure I do not make unwarranted judgements against him. Now before everyone jumps on me, allow me to say what you are dying to say: "but your judgements _are_ warranted!! (insert quote from my post here)"







:

I hate it when people only thank the people that take their side, so I am not _only_ appreciating Calm's post, but just thankful that she put into words how I feel about M.

I am a notorious second-guesser, a perfectionist about all of my decisions, and thoroughly analyze everything, even if I should go to the grocery store or the post office first.







It's the Virgo in me. But PTG did a nice job making its case for letting go of the logical mind and allowing the primitive mind to do its thing. It's just very, _very_ difficult for me to do so.

I am looking for alternative housing, but not moving into temp housing in the meantime. My daughter is safe for the moment and I'm putting the kibosh on touching and over-attention. I am trying to work and make it through full-time school as well (Hi GM, how are _you_ doing?), so surviving this whole mess day-to-day is my first priority.

Sorry if some of you cannot understand this choice, but know that I have not taken any of your words lightly and that this situation is weighing in my mind every second of the day and night.

Aaack, this sucks ass. Oops, did I swear?

Crystal


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Well, this whole situation just sucks. Either you have to go or he does. If you get him out, you will still live looking over your shoulder. I would move. Gavin de Becker is brilliant and I'm glad so many people have his book!









I feel for people who are socially inept - I really do. It must make for a very unhappy life. But you cannot risk your dd for the feelings of this man.

I know two men who are socially inept. Neither of them do I see much (one I knew in high school, one in college) or keep in close contact with but would chat with if we ran into each other. Neither of them would I let have unsupervised contact with my kids. No matter how careful you are, living in the same house with him leaves room for unsupervised contact. The two men I know who are socially inept both have background - one was abused and neglected by his parents; one would tape neighborhood cats to trees! It is sad that something happened (either in utero or in childhood) to cause these issues, but the truth is is that it did. I feel sorry for both of them as I don't think they are very happy or able to form relationships well. I don't think that either of them have done anything inappropriate to anyone (except those poor cats!) but the signs are there that it is possible. Who may be more likely to do something inappropriate - someone who had a normal childhood, normal relationships with family and friends, or someone who didn't/couldn't?

Could be that M is just a maladjusted guy who finds it easier/less threatening to interact with animals or children than with judgmental adults. Could be that it could go further and become an awful problem. Better to insult a guy who is not a threat than to underestimate a guy who is. Gavin de Becker's book should be required reading for all high school girls. Good luck getting this resolved - it must feel awful for you right now.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Crystal,

I'm so sorry for this rock and a hard place you are in!

There is nothing you can really say to this person or your housemates that will "prove" M's inappropriateness. He likely hasn't acted in such an overtly different manner than your other housemates--I'm guessing they stroke her and hug her, too? I don't see any way to say: "M is the only one who can't be around her." without making some accusations about his "creepiness." And, as I'm sure he will point out, being creepy isn't a crime. I don't think you can resolve this in the house without it turning into a big ol' sh*t storm--even if it is nothing more than M being a bit "off"--but perfectly harmless.

However, you will NEVER EVER be able to forgive yourself should something happen.

I WOULD GET OUT OF THAT HOUSE AS IF IT WERE ON FIRE.

Sort out the repurcussions of leaving later.

Better to overreact now and feel a little foolish later, than to have something TRULY life-altering and devestating happen and know in hindsight that you could have prevented it.

Wishing you strength as you walk through this!


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

nevermind


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Dharmamama, hi! I totally get what you are saying, I do. Especially this:

"But the bottom line is (and will continue to be) that parents are the best protectors of their children (no one else will do it for them) but that ability is hampered when parents are too concerned about social niceties, fairness, and logic rather than trusting their instincts."

Some of the issue I had (which isn't even my place to have issue, I know, but the activist in me arcs up) are things such as "get him away from that freak" "he is a sick man" and so on. There was absolutely NOTHING in Crystal's posts to suggest he deserved such things said about him. In fact, I would like to know what makes people say that, other than Crystal's feeling - which is HER feeling.

My post was not to tell her to stay, but to listen to herself. Confronting/talking with him is a much better place to start than "RUN! GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!" don't you think? Doing nothing could harm her daughter, running could harm her daughter (in other ways).


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

HHM- i understand the process you are going through to make this decision. It sounds a lot like the way I operate sometimes. But in reading through your posts, and especially quotes that PPs have highlighted of yours, I gotta say, my feeling is that he is not going to change. yes, I am making a sweeping judgement on someone I have never met. but, in my experience, people who are passive agressive, who "don't drop topics" etc... are not into self-reflection. When confronted, they become defensive and may try to turn it around to being *your* issue. Like you said, he tried to make it seem like he knows your dd better. While i think that confronting him obviously needs to happen, I'd have a plan in place. After something like that, if it doesn't turn out hunky-dory, then it will be really uncomfortable. if it were me, I would want to know that I had an out, right then and there.

And, slightly OT, but what's with coop being so difficult to ask people to leave? i mean, if there is a legitimate reason, and i should say that you certainly have one, who can argue with that? i know no others in your coop have children there, but do they have any who might live elsewhere? can they understand at all where you are coming from as a parent? i mean, a single adult who only has to look out for themselves can put up with a lot in terms of an annoying housemate. But, when your kid is involved, its another ballgame.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer*
And, slightly OT, but what's with coop being so difficult to ask people to leave? i mean, if there is a legitimate reason, and i should say that you certainly have one, who can argue with that? i know no others in your coop have children there, but do they have any who might live elsewhere? can they understand at all where you are coming from as a parent? i mean, a single adult who only has to look out for themselves can put up with a lot in terms of an annoying housemate. But, when your kid is involved, its another ballgame.

This is a good point. Hippiemama I lived in a co-op-ish situation once, not as much process as yours, very UNdemocratic in fact, not to mention dysfunctional, but still like all co-ops very process heavy - it would take several meetings to decide what kind of dish soap to buy... I'm sure you know exactly the kind of meetings I'm talking about. Anyway, despite all that, when action was needed, we acted swiftly. There was a single mom in our house who got involved w/ another housemate. He became emotionally abusive. I believed (based on what I'd seen of their relationship and what I knew of him - which was a lot) that it was going to escalate to physical abuse. I asked her permission to call a house meeting w/ everyone but him. At that meeting we consensed that for the sake of the kids as well as our integrity as a house, we would ask him to leave immediately, which we did.

The rest of the story actually goes way downhill from there, but THE POINT is that my housemates did know how to make a swift decision when it came to protecting the kids. So, maybe you shouldn't rule out that possibility?


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## SmilesALot (Nov 20, 2001)

T

guerillamama

your signature is very apt for me too. I am getting off now (to come back in about 10 minutes!) I sure need help with this MDC addiction!!!

Peace & Love!


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
This is a good point. Hippiemama I lived in a co-op-ish situation once, not as much process as yours, very UNdemocratic in fact, not to mention dysfunctional, but still like all co-ops very process heavy - it would take several meetings to decide what kind of dish soap to buy... I'm sure you know exactly the kind of meetings I'm talking about. Anyway, despite all that, when action was needed, we acted swiftly. There was a single mom in our house who got involved w/ another housemate. He became emotionally abusive. I believed (based on what I'd seen of their relationship and what I knew of him - which was a lot) that it was going to escalate to physical abuse. I asked her permission to call a house meeting w/ everyone but him. At that meeting we consensed that for the sake of the kids as well as our integrity as a house, we would ask him to leave immediately, which we did.

The rest of the story actually goes way downhill from there, but THE POINT is that my housemates did know how to make a swift decision when it came to protecting the kids. So, maybe you shouldn't rule out that possibility?

It is near impossible to kick him out because he is not hurting anyone (potential to hurt is not the same thing) , and because the house as a whole cannot favor one person over another. I do not have more rights than he does, DD does not have more rights than he does, he does not have more rights than either of us.

One of my housemates has made it clear to me that if we were to leave over this issue (rather than him leaving), she would leave too, in protest. This new fact has helped me feel like it is within my rights to ask the house to oust him, and if they say no, then it is within my rights to leave myself. So I am getting there - albeit slower than many of you would wish!! - but with your help.

And yes, GM, it somehow can take far too long to decide upon dishsoap.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

HHM, i'm really glad to hear you have some allies in the house, that is reassuring. thanks for updating us, you know lots of people are worrying about you (in a good way).









Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilesALot*







T

guerillamama

your signature is very apt for me too. I am getting off now (to come back in about 10 minutes!) I sure need help with this MDC addiction!!!

Peace & Love!









T too








:

well, you're not alone, there's a lot of us addicts here, OBVIOUSLY.







and here i am again!


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## leafwood (Jun 15, 2004)

I have to say that if I were in your situation, I would take my dd and get out of Dodge. It seems like you're second guessing your mama radar, which is dangerous. If you feel your stomach turn whenever he's around your dd, you need to step up and confront him directly. Depending on others in the house is not good enough. Seeing as how you, the mama, have a hard time intervening, how do you think they will do acting on behalf of your child. Also, if he creeps you out, how does he make your dd feel?
I got the creeps just reading your post and agree that this situation could put your daughter in harms way.
Another question, just because I'm trying to understand better. When he was all over her at the meal table, you said you restrained yourself from grabbing her out of her booster seat. Why? Maybe she needed you to do that. Also, if the other women in the house see it too, I would take the collective female intuition and seriously scram. I don't think this is overprotective, just one of the requirements of being a mama. It sounds like you really love the other housemates, but there must be a better place where the both of you can feel safe and comfortable.
Good luck!


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## CarolynnMarilynn (Jun 3, 2004)

I just wanted to say that you must really be struggling. Be strong and true and the rest will follow. Sending you strength and clarity (and a hug!)

Carolynn


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## 1boy1girl (Jun 3, 2003)

Not having read all the replies, I'd move.


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## Tani (Feb 18, 2003)

Get. Yourself. And. Your. Daughter. Away. From. That. Sick. F*ck.

Pretty simple to me.









Your FIRST obligation is to make sure your daughter is SAFE AT ALL TIMES. It doesn't MATTER whether this is such a great, organic, crunchy living situation (and I am someone who has lived in housing coops and believes in them wholeheartedly). Your child's welfare is more important than ANYthing else. Trust me on this one.


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## simcon (Jul 31, 2002)

Unlike some of the other posters, I do think you are listening well to your instincts, Crystal--and I also think that no matter what happens with your "confrontation" (or the "the baby & and you" talk at the meeting that you mentioned), that you will ultimately have to leave, at least for a period of time. I can't imagine your intuitive response to the situation would change--and if it feels like it does, I'd suspect that you are rationalizing, and hope you would consider that.

I had composed a long post several days ago...lost...basically saying that I was pretty uncomfortable with the virtual criminalization of M in many of the posters' responses. (Luckily others posted along those lines!) Many people are "creeped out" by mental illness--and given that most of the specific things you mentioned (lack of appropriate boundaries, obsessiveness, etc.) could go with Asperger's, autism, etc, and there are many mamas here of children with special needs who have those issues who will eventually be adults with those issues, I think it's worthwhile to find ways of talking about the situation with respect to all involved (especially those who can't speak for themselves), at the same time encouraging Crystal to do what she needs to do to keep her child safe.

For what it's worth, I thought the best thing that might come out of a confrontation situation (from the point of view of you staying in the house) would be that M would indeed respond in a way that was clearly inappropriate to all witnessing it. Especially since you say that others in the house interact with your daughter in ways you don't want M to, it seems to me that it would be hard and unfair to him to oust him based on his actions at this point. In saying this, I'm only saying that it seems to me that the onus is on you to leave. I do agree with the other posters that the situation seems potentially dangerous--and untenable for that reason--to me as well. And, as an aside, I can't remember if you've arranged an emergency temporary place to stay--but I'd definitely do it before you have any kind of house conversation with him. Oh, and it sounds like a kitten might be a good idea, no matter what happens with your living status in the co-op.

Good luck--I hope you will keep us posted. What a hard situation to navigate.


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## liv (Apr 17, 2003)

you are talking about your "protective mama bear instinct" but you are not doing anything.









move.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't think she isn't doing anything, she has mentioned the things she is doing. Maybe she isn't moving at this point, but that isn't doing nothing. It is a complicated situation for her, she has nowhere to go. I don't think exposing her toddler to the life of a shelter and the people she could potentially expose her daughter to in such situations compares any more favorably than trying to get to the bottom of the problem, (which is only a potential problem there also), where she is first.

Please come back and update us, Crystal. Especially if you find a solution. I am following your story with great interest and concern.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I am also concerned that you are not acting on your maternal protective instincts. Before anything, safety comes first. When we have children we owe them that. Your dd needs and deserves to be protected and that is all that matters right now. After we are safe, then we can look into other things.

I do feel for you Mama. Your OP made me sad and wish there was something I can do. All I can do is share with you that I felt very upset in my gut and my soul when I read it. I also am worried that when you don't act on your instincts (like not grabbing dd from him when your instincts are screaming for you to do just that) you will be supressing your natural mama protective instincts and this is dangerous for your dd.

DD needs to be safe. She must be protected and this is what she deserves. You sound like a wonderful mama and I just wanted to offer you some support and strength and another mama's perspective. You must listen to your inner mama bear. She's in there for a very good reason.








and







Mama.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I get where you are coming from simcon. That is why I asked how her dc reacts to him. Children are very innocent though and that isn't always the best measure. I have though, experienced children (and some animals) to be keen readers on character when adults judgement are clouded by judgement. I also agree that M may have some issues mentally and no, I would not want him to be ostercised because of it IF it were in fact true, BUT we do not know and if it were my child, thier safety comes first no mater who or what is the potential threat.
If M did have some disorder, then I feel it should be shared with the rest of the household as well, providing that M is aware of his issues.
I have to say that M may not even be dangerous. I for one, would not wait around to find out for sure. Instimct is with us for a reason, just like the sense of smell, taste ect....


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## Avonlea (Jan 21, 2002)

I am just curious to know how she and her daughter are faring now. I hope that you are both well and safe.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

As much as it will really suck to move out of a place that you otherwise adore - I would recommend you do it. It's not worth the risk and this guy just sounds too creepy. You are a single mother and you can't have your eyes on her 24x7 nor can you expect the other house guests to pay as close attention to your daughter as you would yourself. Get out of dodge and fast. I'm afraid that the fact that you love the rest of the living arrangement so much may be clouding your maternal instinct to flee (not blaming you in any way it is understandable - just offering an outside view).

Hugs to you and DD.









Kitty


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## Trini girl (Feb 3, 2004)

ok, i'm not american, let me say that first. therefore i never understood the "scared all the time thing" and running away from your probs.
that said i "do" think you have a reason to be concerned and i'm very glad you're not being judgemental about this and making rash decisions that could very well harm your daughter also. i think you're doing the rightthing by attempting to talk it out and resolve the issue with out calling the guy a freak before you up and move. cuz in my experience, moving all the time is not very good for kids either, it happend to me and i'm still a bit screwed up. i totally understad the churning in your stomach thing but yet not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings.
my advice? keep doing what you're doing. don't make any rash decisions and stay true to you and what you're feeling.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Well, I think you're doing a pretty good job following your instinct as of now.








However.....I just wanted to add the fact that there have been two different instances in my life where I didn't follow that sick pitted feeling in my belly and I ended up being raped both times. I knew both men very well and I never thought they would do something like they did. Yeah, I had a weird feeling in my belly around them, but I just totally dismissed it telling myself I was just being parinoid (sp?) and that they would never do anything do me. I mean, why would they? They were really nice to me and helped me out a lot. Very sweet guys. The first time I was raped the guy was my boyfriend (I was 13) and he was a very very nice guy, kind of controlling, but I thought that was normal. That's why I decided to ignore this gut instinct I had to run away. Well, he raped me a total of 9 times (btw, while he was raping me the first time he was telling me about the other girls he raped too). He then stalked me for almost a year. I hate flowers (especially roses) to this day because he would send me huge boquetts everyday. I hate a bunch of normal stuff that I assosiate with him. The band Metalica, green mustangs, no hair on guys "down there", etc..
The second time I was raped it was by my boss. I was 17, he was 47. I had known him for over 4 years. I babysat his kids. I was really good friends with his wife. I taught him yoga. I actually no longer teach yoga because of the feelings and flashbacks I get.







I also no longer can stand black Ford Rangers, UT fans, and certain tattoos I liked before.
Needless to say everytime I get a funky feeling that makes my skin crawl about someone whether it be related to me or someother person I know, I flee as fast as I can. For instance, my husbands cousin gives me the major heebie jeebies. I let my husband know more than once that I refuse to be left alone in a room with him or close to him without very many people by my side. I also (now that my daughter is born) will never let him touch her or be alone with her. I just don't trust him. I trust *ME*!
I guess what I trying to say is: You might make him unhappy or you might be uncomfortable living elsewhere for a while and yes, it might disrupt your babys life for a while, BUT, wouldn't that be better than possibly having her molested or abducted? I'm not saying that he will do these things, but _*what if he does*_? You don't have a crystal ball, you can know what's going to happen, but you know how hard it would be for both of you if something did.








I really hope you find the answer in yourself.
Lots of love and support,
Kathryn


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

I wanted to point out that just moving won't instantly make the situation disappear!
I second the thought that speaking openly is the best way to go, with an escape plan in place:
I'm thinking it seems very likely that M is going to want to follow you and continue his (perceived) relationship with your DD, and this is certain if you simply move without communicating some boundaries (Total Boundary) with him. Then where will you be? In a comparatively new place, with a comparatively new support system- if any at all. Would that be an improvement? Only you can answer that.

Another thought:
Moving out may not have to be permanent!
after you leave and make it clear he's not going to be visiting you, he's bound (hopefully) to find something new to focus on, and/or may move away,

OR the other co-op members could wait until you're out of the situation and out of his mind and THEN kick him out, in which case, if he demonizes anyone, it'll be the collective, and not you. This seems safer for your family, and when you move back in after a little while, it won't seem so much as if you and M are adversaries, even with the earlier boundary conversations.

It's so tricky keeping the peace and keeping safe at the same time. We have to choose safety over politeness, but then how can we know just how rude we need to be to get what we need? and when being "too" rude will cause more trouble??

I was attacked at 16 by a "friendly" stranger in public, and for years put myself down for "only" talking my way out of it, and physically only resisting passively- not fighting him. But looking back now, I wonder if, had I hit him or showed anger, would it have escalated into more force on his part, and would he have succeeded in raping me?
It seems this too is a case of Acknowlege the Conflict Without Escalating It.

(P.S. to a previous poster: Not finding a person's name in the Sex Offender Registry is no guarantee that his name does not belong there.)

...who says that we're only justified in limiting contact with people who creep us out if they are dangerous? Nobody has any right to our space, our bodies, our children. We decide who is allowed to get close, and they'll just have to deal with that.


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## spring2 (May 12, 2002)

I agree with most of what has been posted here about M. but would also like to add another warning. I would be very wary of ANY men changing diapers/clothes or bathing your daughter. I would not be comfortable having men living within the household having that kind of contact with your daughter

I know this might seem paranoid but men are very visual and I would guess that most of them are not fathers. So, changing diapers is not within the norm of their routine and can be arousing and really how well do you know anyone?

I know your coop might seem like some recreation of the way people used to live with extended family members taking care of childdren. But, these are not your extended family members and in the "old days", other women would have bathed and diapered another woman's baby. (And yes I realize that a lot of abuse is from extended family members.) I would never put my child in this kind of a situation.

Most good day cares/nureries have rules that a child never be changed in private by a staff member (male or female!).

In some of the communes, coops and meditation centers that sprang up in the 60's and 70's, there are stories of abuse. I think some of this stems from the lack of accountability (everyone was in charge of a child) and by the convenience of it (it was very easy for anyone to get away with).

Wishing you all the best, Spring

PS I am very big on boundaries for all people but most importantly for little people.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Men are not the enemy, pedophiles and those that are aroused by children are the enemy. It has been shown that more women than we thought are aroused by naked children, and because women do not penetrate when they sexually abuse, most of it goes unreported.

Get off this "man" thing, it is offensive. Men have a hard enough time being affectionate without seeming to cross bounderies as it is. My own father was always hesitant to be too affectionate with me because of how it might "look". Males have a hard time going into childcare work because of this stigma.

If we are going to warn people against exposing our children, at least don't perpetuate this mood in society and lay the blanket over men and women, because that is the fact of it.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Calm!

OT, but my dh was better at changing diapers than I was. Sure he's my dh and I trust him.
I have a very good friend who used to watch dd on occasion for me if dh was working late and I had class. I trusted him to change dd's diaper and not leave her soaking wet for 2 hours. He has children, who at the time didn't live with him. I never got a bad feeling from him, and he and his dp are some of my best friends, and still 2 of the only people I would trust to watch dd.
I have since reciprocated and changed his ds's diaper while his dp napped after their baby was born.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I agree with you to a point, Calm, but seriously, are not more men than women guilty of violent and/or sexual crimes? A class I took about keeping dd safe stressed that a lost child seek out a *woman* for help, because she is so much less likely to harm the child. I don't think men should be bashed, but, in general I think it is prudent to be more aware of leaving children alone with men. I know women can be abusive, too, but statistically much less likely to do so.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Good point, Kara. And yes, I would prefer my DD seek out a woman if she is in trouble. But I have a problem with someone saying

"I would be very wary of ANY men changing diapers/clothes or bathing your daughter. I would not be comfortable having men living within the household having that kind of contact with your daughter "

When it could have said "anyone", not "any man". My husband is sitting here beside me fuming and dictating I write some things to illustrate how frustrating this is for men. I am telling him to go away (LOL). But just one point, I was sexually interfered with by a woman, actually, a teenage girl when I was four years old. There was no penetration, but it is a vivid memory and one of the few I hold from my fourth year. Statistics did not prevent what happened to me. Statistics don't keep your child safe. For every innocent male you keep from your child, there could be a sinister female you allow near them.

My point is to keep an eye on your child, regardless of who they are with (to a point of course, let's leave grandma out of this), and just as with women, allow a man to be close to a child, just be there. A female who has been starved of male affection, (in psychology studies at least), it has been shown they will seek it out when they mature.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

That's like saying more men than women are murderers. No, more men than women GET CAUGHT. Big difference.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Excuse me? You honestly believe that women are on a killing spree but just not "getting caught"???? Where are the bodies? Why are men convicted of the killings, then?


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
That's like saying more men than women are murderers. No, more men than women GET CAUGHT. Big difference.









: Where are you getting this? Has a new study come out or something? I've read the stastics and data and what you say is simply not true.

Please, everyone who has not yet read Protecting the Gift, do yourself and your children a favor and go read it now. Please?


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## spring2 (May 12, 2002)

Calm - I tried to post earlier but the forums went down. I do not want to hijack this thread from the OP. Nor do I want to argue with you about men-bashing. I will try to clarify my statments and then that is it - I am letting it go. This thread is about Crystal's situation not me or you.

I sincerly doubt that more women than men abuse children. Yes, woman do but it is the minority. Abuse is so common in this country (isn't it at least 1 in 4 girls) and every person that I know that has been abussed has been abused by a male (whether the victim was a girl or boy). Looking through the forums here, I have never seen an account of a female (I know it happens but again the minority).

Parthenia (who applauded your kind reply) stated that she only trusts TWO people to watch child and they are "dear friends". From the OP, I get the impression that she has not been living with her roomates long - they are not "dear friends". Yes, the could become life-long friends but they are not at this time. It would be a little like knowing that a house in your neighborhood had organic, crunchy people in it and saying "I am going to let all of those people babysit my child".

These men are not child care providers. They have not been trained or screened. They are not old, trusted friends. They are roomates she has not been living with long. She does not even know if they will stick with her in this situation with M.

I was not trying to say that I would not let ANY man change the diapers, I would not let ANY man that I happened to be roomates with but had not know prior to being roomates. The relationship is too short and casual.

Living in a communal setting is tricky. It provides instant intimacy but you don't really have a history with the people. Haven't you ever really hit off with someone and thought they would be your best friend/spouse and then over the months of getting to know them, you come to realize differences or they are not the people you thought they were?

When I read the original post, I had red flags about M. Most of these were addressed by others and I did not have any thing else to add. But knowing what it is like to live like that, I also had red flags about the babysitting situation.

I think it is great to be living in a group, cooking, hanging out. But, I think you have to move slowly with your boundaries. As one person said, it is hard to get 10 people to agree on what dish soap to buy. Well, imagaine getting all of them on the same page as you are in raising your daughter.

Consider how often do people move out of the house? How soon do you let a new person watch your child? If A. is watching your child do they really get that B., C. D. E. and F. are OK but you have been avoiding having G watch your child? Do they know that you don't want G. to watch your child while they take a shower or run to the bank? Maybe not even because they might abuse your child but for minor issues.

Crystal said that she is worried when other people babysit that M. might have access to her daughter. If one of your friends knew the situation, do you think that you would worry when your daughter was in there care? I doubt it. They would be as concerned as you are and they would keep her away from M. It just sounds like too many people and too loose to ensure that her daughter would be safe. But that also means her daughter is vulnerable to other roomates too (especially since they have not been identified as "suspicous").

I am not a man-basher and my husband changed a billion diapers. But I would not let someone that new to me change my daughter's diaper.

Of course, men and women are able to perform the same duties and they have the same capacity for parenting skills and men are an important part of any school but given our current society, there need to be precautions. I don't know if men are wired differently or if our society is causing it but I can see the effect and that effect is that children are being abused.

Calm - like I said, I don't want to hijack this thread. Everyone is saying trust your instincts. Well, my instincts told me that there were other red flags.

Crystal - I have no idea if this rings true to you in any way. If it does, great. If it doesn't, ignore it. And I have no idea who or how the babysitting arrangement works so I could be way off track on that.

If you stay, be sure not to invest all your eggs in the house. Often, I have experienced a "honeymooom" period in living in that type of housing and over time even the best of people can get on your nerves. It is always nice to have others to hang with (I know it might be difficult given work/school). Do you have a Mom's group? Anyone in Iowa City that is getting together and could include Crystal?

And I always say it is easier to say more/share more later than it is to take it back. The same goes with your boundaries with your daughter. I would take it slow with everyone.

Whew!! OK - sorry for the long post. Crystal - I think you sound wonderful and I wish I could invite you and your babe over for a cup of tea. I am very impressed with your thoughtfulness, sensitivity and perseverance. I wish you the best - I don't know where life will take you but I have a good vibe about your path.

Peace Mamas, Spring


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

We cross posted, I will read what spring has posted before I post.


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## spring2 (May 12, 2002)

Calm - I had no intention of replying again but I had not seen your last post. I am sorry to hear about your situation when your were 4 years old. It must be very painful and I am so sad. Please know that I don't take it lightly. I still believe what I posted but that doesn't change what happened to you. And I really wish that I could.

Spring


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I haven't read the last few posts, but I wanted to say that Spring2 that I thought your posts on this page were excellent.

I am far from a man basher - I have actually fought with my mom about this because I hate to hear generalized "men" type complaints. But in the case of sexual abuse (and violence), the stats are unrefutable: more men abuse than do women. Some women do, yes. But sexual abuse is perpetrated by something like 90% heterosexual men. (I can get the exact number from you in a book I have once I don't have a kid on my lap.)

This is not man bashing - it is the truth of our society.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Ok, I read your post Spring, and fair enough. I just wrote a whole post and deleted it because I can't be bothered anymore. Your post above is quite eloquent, and I appreciate you clarifying for me. As for hijacking though, I disagree, as it is an important point that is valid for the OP. But yeah, I am outta here too. Thank you.









PS, I protect all my gifts, five of which are men I love - my four brothers and my husband. The greatest gift I have is my daughter, and she comes first. But my activism does not stop there.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Just got your last post, Spring - thank you. And I believe what you said, because you sound like a big hearted person.









Edited of the percentage thingy I was gonna do because I am not in activist mood at the moment. I feel sick. woe is me. Sorry. gotta go to bed.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Crystal, haven't heard from you in a while... just wondering... what ever happened? Did you move? How are you doing?


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## kirei (Dec 2, 2004)

I read this ENTIRE post.









I agree with most of what was said, in that I think you should definitely trust your instincts. I also wanted to add that... if his behaviour does seem unusual (obsessive and such) you can't assume that it's going to stop at any "safe" point. It is most likely going to continue getting worse, especially considering the nature of it (i.e. obsession IS extreme).

I hope you'll be careful in confronting him, simply because you wouldn't want him to feel defensive... I would be afraid he would feel that he needs to ensure that your dd is not taken away from him, by whatever means possible.

Anyway, I'm just wondering how things have been going! I hope you're doing okay, and I can imagine this is a really difficult situation for you. It's just that your talk of the bad feelings you got really scare me! I felt like I could imagine JUST how you're feeling... and I know that personally, I would also second-guess myself. But I think it would be really important for you to trust your instincts and leave.

Take care. I hope you're well.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Completely OT, but ladies, come on. Statistics and studies won't ever you show the people who didn't get caught. I can't prove to you that women do indeed abuse, or murder, but you can't prove they don't.

In terms of sexual abuse, I think people very foolishly talk themselves out of their gut feelings about "nice ladies" all too frequently, and I also think they refuse to see the evidence because it doesn't jive with what they think they know about people.

As for murder, again, pretty OT, but there are lots of unsolved murders and lots of mysterious deaths. Personally, I think the only difference between men and women when it comes to violence is women are better at it, calmer, less rageful, and don't get caught.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Ha. Had almost forgotten about this thread, and then it popped up on the first page again.

Have a connection that I am discussing a rental arrangement with. May be getting into a two br apt for a relatively low amount, and no deposit, which would make it almost doable. Nice area of town, new apts. This very nice man (friend of a friend, yk, but trustworthy and vouched for) is out of town for the holidays however and I won't get to look at the apt until the second week of Jan.

As for the situation in the house, it's been fairly ok. I think that the ickiness my female roomies and I felt changed the energy in the house significantly, and things were really yucky-ola for a few weeks. Slowly, though, I think that M felt the general vibe and he backed off considerably.

In the meantime, I have been diligent about keeping an eye on the situation, and keeping dd within my arm's reach. M stopped the petting and the obsessiveness on his own, which I am hugely thankful for, as I was on the brink of insanity having the ickiness "thrown in my face" anytime I was in his presence. This way at least I have it at the back of my mind and have changed our lifestyle in accordance to that, but have also been able to live fairly happily. I am (as I said above) planning on leaving soon anyway - but it was simply not possible at the time of this original post.

Thank you all for your support, and also the book recommendation - Becker is an amazing author and I appreciated his book a great deal. Reread parts of it every once in a while to keep me on my toes.

love
crystal


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Cool, I'm so glad to hear that everything is under control. Thanks for the update!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey Crystal! Thank you for the update, I love it when updates come in. I am so glad he backed off without the need for a whole lotta hullabaloo, and I am also glad that you now have the time to sort your situation out with some peace.


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