# i don't know what else to do.



## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

i am frustrated beyond belief.
for the last few months my 20 month old has not gone to bed before 1 in the effing morning. i just put him down at 1/4 to 9 hoping it was for bed and he woke up at 10:30 and is running wild through the house.
i can't even write anymore i'm so angry.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Is he still napping? Will he stay down if you're in bed with him?

-Angela


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

oh boy. my ds was NOT sleeping before midnight for a long time.

today, luckily, my dh took him to do laundry and the park early so his nap was around 1-4 (3 hours is too long but it was early) and i just took him for a forty five minute walk/run/play session.

i'm hoping it works.

so, from my experience, i would ask you, what is his exercise like during the day? what are his naps like? does he sleep in? will he fall asleep in the car?

we seriously use the car for emergency sleeping sessions and it works great.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

he naps once a day.
if he falls asleep around 1 am he gets up around noon.
i have tried waking him up earlier and cutting out naps.
he didn't nap yesterday and was up until almost 2 am.
he usually naps 2-2.5 hours during the afternoon.
he won't stay in bed if i nurse him to sleep if he is done sleeping.
i just want to bash my head into the wall.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

we don't have a car, so that is out.
he is extremely active and we usually go to at least 2 parks during the day and the library, along with having playdates.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would be frustrated too...

So if you're in bed and it's dark he'll still get up? arg.

Do you have a partner and do they sleep with you as well? What if you put him in the middle? And are really BORING....

Have you tried keeping him up from his naps for a couple of days? Sometimes that works for dd... (And sometimes it means she takes a nap at 10:30... arg)

Just tossing ideas out...

-Angela


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

we all sleep together...we have tried cutting his naps 2 days consecutively.
he was grumpy, mean, and overtired.

tonight i am setting the alarm clock 8 hours ahead of when he falls asleep. then he can nap around 1 in the afternoon for a few hours and if he falls asleep before 10 i will wake him up to run in the yard or something.

maybe this has to do with the fact that we have never had a strict bedtime routine. i feel like this is all my fault.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't think it's your fault. I think it's a stage.

We've found that INTENSE OUTSIDE activity helps when sleep is crappy.

Swimming works great for dd. 1 hour in the pool = good sleep. 2 hours in the pool = excellent sleep and a very cheerful child...









-Angela


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Have you considered the possibility that molars may be erupting?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

:

Molars were the worst for sleep.

-Angela


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

no...he has 16 teeth already, i didn't think he would be getting the last 4 for awhile.







: oh man. i really really really hope it's teething.
i'm going to find a swimming class for him or something.

what other activities can i do with him?
we bought him a run bike today but he still doesn't really understand the concept.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

i don't think it's teething, as he already has the 16 he should have by now (and has had them for months)...and his gums aren't swollen or red and don't feel different.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

If there is a possibility that molars are coming in (and this is about the right age) you can consider whether or not to treat for pain.

Personally, I made the decision to treat for the pain of molars with ibuprofen. However, there are a lot of folks who believe this is harmful for various reasons.

I would also consider ruling out unexpected medical causes. I recall one night with my first daughter where she kept me up ALL NIGHT with weird, frantic nursing. She had no cold, no symptoms, but I went ahead and took her to the pedi the next morning anyway. The pedi said that she had a double ear infection that was a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most severe ear infection. I gave her abx and pain relief and she was back to herself in no time. (I give abx too for certain things, including severe ear infections, but again, some people do not believe in doing this and there are opinions on both sides of this matter.)

I then felt soooo bad for feeling annoyed at her for keeping me up all night. I thanked God for AP because I kept those feelings to myself and just nursed her and comforted her, even though by 3 a.m. I just wanted to scream.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It could well be teething. For us the 1yr molars and 2 yr molars just ran into eachother.

Trampoline- they make nice little toddler ones with a handle.

Park.

Gymnastics class.

good luck!

-Angela


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Have you tried backing up his bedtime like 1/2 hour / night? I know it will take longer, but hopefully it will eliminate the "nap at 10:30 syndrome"

You did NOT cause this. My 23 month old wouldn't nap for 2 months (like 20 - 22 months) and she was a misrable bear the whole time. Then one day she started all on her own taking a nap in the afternoon and my happy child returned. They go through stages despite us







:


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

We went through two stages of bed refusal at around 18-20 months. What worked for us was that bedtime was bedtime, and that meant we were going to be in the bedroom, in the dark, with the breast on offer as much as she liked, and lots of love and cuddles and stories in the dark but we weren't going out to play.

For us it was just a nearly-two pushing boundaries thing, and once we realised that it very quickly resolved. I'm not sure that your issue isn't some aspect of that leading to a totally screwy schedule.

Have you read "sleepless in America" by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka? I really think it sounds like he might need some reinforcing of a 'normal' (average, less nightowlish than 1am to noon) sleep pattern, but she explains in great detail that I can't reproduce here why and how you can consider it. It's gentle, no CIO or anything like that - just things to consider about sleep patterns and how to arrange life so that sleep comes easily and deeply.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

i'm losing my fucking mind.
it's 2 in the morning and he is not sleeping or showing signs of sleep.
just being rude and disobedient.


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## kissum (Apr 15, 2006)

You're going to think I'm crazy, but is there any chance he's not getting enough sleep during the day?
If my dd doesn't nap well, she doesn't sleep well either. Hugs mama!


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Will he let you or your DP wear him down to sleep? When my DD gets really wound up (which was most nights around that age), the only way I can get her to sleep is to put her in a carrier and take a long long walk.

It's not your fault.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

he went to bed a little bit after 2.
we woke him up at 10:30.
i'm hoping he'll nap by 1 or 2 for a few hours and then go to bed by a decent hour.
ugh.







:
i'm so tired.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I hate to say it, but I rarely found that waking dd early helped the late bedtime issue...







: It just meant that we had a miserable day too...

good luck!

-Angela


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

i know, i just can't handle him sleeping until 1 and then trying to get this schedule on a normal time, i feel like i'm losing my mind with lack of sleep.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

When he wakes up, what does he do if you stay in bed and pretend to sleep?

Can you childproof your room so he can play on his own?

When dd did that I found that if it was boring enough the idea didn't last.

-Angela


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

our room is pretty childproof, if we are super tired we put on the backyardigans or something and he reads and watches tv and plays with blocks and toys.







: when he starts jumping on us and smashing our heads in we know we've overdone it and it's definitely time to get up!

it's 3 here and he hasn't napped yet







: we haven't gone outside because it rained all morning and i kept falling asleep while nursing in bed from 1-2...so i have no idea what to do. it's nicer out now but by the time i get him ready to go outside and play and get there (on a sunday the bus routes are way less frequent) he will want to nap. ugh. this is a lose-lose day for me.

i don't want to cut his nap short but i think i probably will have to let him sleep only 1.5 hours and then get him up and out of the house...no matter how long it takes us to get somewhere.

i'm so frustrated.


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## Momma2SoSweet (Feb 25, 2007)

I've really no advice but just wanted to commiserate. My 9 month old dd has not gone to sleep before 11pm for the last week or so. (She used to go down between 7:30-8pm with no problem.) Last night she went to bed at 12:30am. She did just learn to crawl and is trying really hard to walk, so I'm chalking it up to hitting these new milestones. Not that that makes it any easier. :yawning:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I have (had) a dc with a late bedtime. It was 2am for a LONG time. And the same thing would happen here- if he went to sleep before midnight, it was a nap to him. Yeah, he'd get up and play until WAYYYYY tooo late.

The only thing that helped us was travelling. Sorry lol. We go to Ohio, which is a 3 hour time difference. Add that into an entire day of traveling, and we had a very moldable bedtime. hehehe

It does help for short term to make sure naps don't go too late. I know that sounds bad, and I felt kinda guilty keeping him from napping or waking him up, but if he wanted to nap at 5pm, it meant nothing but trouble for bedtime. kwim?
I personally don't think I had much luck with waking ds up early. I tried, and it might have helped a little bit for short term, but it was never any type of solution.

But, I mainly wanted to say that ds is now almost 3, and his bedtime is easier to "set." We never had a set bedtime, but I'm trying to make sure ds is in bed at least by 10 or 11. He's NOW pretty agreeable to going to bed and relaxing, whether he already feels tired or not, and he can get to sleep pretty easily too.

eta- I don't know if this helped or not, but a few months ago, I started telling ds that even though I wasn't going to make him go to bed, I also wasn't going to play after midnight (or whatever time). I got dp to go along too. (and no tv either). So he could play on his own, or he could come to bed and we'd read to him. We weren't ignoring him at all. But I think that could have set the stage for teaching him that nighttime actually means something.
Now, telling him that didn't usually help in the moment, except for getting me off the hook from "mommy play with me!"


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I really think it sounds like he might need some reinforcing of a 'normal' (average, less nightowlish than 1am to noon) sleep pattern, but she explains in great detail that I can't reproduce here why and how you can consider it. It's gentle, no CIO or anything like that - just things to consider about sleep patterns and how to arrange life so that sleep comes easily and deeply.

Absolutely! If he sleeps until noon then you can't really expect him to go to bed before midnight. It's usually a 12 hour cycle.

Deep breaths - you will have to gradually work with him to reset his clock.


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## ~MoonGypsy~ (Aug 21, 2006)

It sounds to me like he's not getting enough sleep. Adults tend to think that not taking a nap will make the child more tired, thus causing them to go to bed earlier. Normally that's not the case. He _needs_ to nap and he needs to nap for a fairly long time or more than once a day. Being overtired tends to make them stay up being "rude and disobedient".


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I wouldn't try and make the jump to an earlier wakeup in one or even a few days. That's asking for disaster! Wake him maybe half an hour early for a few days, then another half hour, etc, etc.

I would sit down and write out what his schedule is *now* (including late long nap), and then try and tweak it a fraction at a time, so he gets as much sleep as he needs, but gradually comes around to a different bed/wake/nap time. You probably have to just bite the bullet and accept that for the next wfew weeks his bedtime is midnight and he wakes at noon, naps at 6. I would make sure he's getting as much sleep as possible, then fiddle with *when* he's doing it.

Also, making sure that he's sleeping in bright sunlight during the morning will help his brain set his body clock.

Quote:

It sounds to me like he's not getting enough sleep. Adults tend to think that not taking a nap will make the child more tired, thus causing them to go to bed earlier. Normally that's not the case. He needs to nap and he needs to nap for a fairly long time or more than once a day. Being overtired tends to make them stay up being "rude and disobedient".
What she said.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm so sorry this is happening mama. I would be so frustrated if my babe kept me up until 2am. On the other hand my husband told me to ask if you wanted to trade children. He has been a nightowl his whole life. Our dd on the otherhand is a total morning person and routinely wakes by 6am. He would love a baby that went to bed at 2 and didn't wake until noon.


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## ~MoonGypsy~ (Aug 21, 2006)

Oh, forgot to add this:







I hope it gets better soon.


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## ikesmom (Oct 29, 2005)

We took a long camping trip and I think being outdoors regulated my ds's body clock. He is 22 mo and just started sleeping through the night last month. Before that we were a wreck and didn't get much sleep.

We hiked a LOT during the day and tried to let him walk while we held his hands much as possible. We had lots of people- many kids and dogs with us. I had lots of help with everyone watching him but letting him run around our camp area freely. He ate a LOT and drank a ton of fluids during the day too.

By the third night he slept 12 hours! No pressure on him or us. When it got dark and cold he sat next to the fire and didn't want to move. He just fell asleep on his own and we put him in the tent. (We have a huge air mattress and comfy sleeping bags which helped a lot)

He has been doing great since then . He even is sleeping in the sidecar crib for the first time ever.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Wake him maybe half an hour early for a few days, then another half hour, etc, etc.

I would make sure he's getting as much sleep as possible, then fiddle with *when* he's doing it.

Also, making sure that he's sleeping in bright sunlight during the morning will help his brain set his body clock.

I agree with wannabe.

When we just had dd1, her "bedtime" was late, whenever she fell asleep. I'm a nightowl and dp worked til 6:00 p.m. so it worked out for her to stay up later (more time with Daddy) and to sleep in (I didn't have to get up early). Perfect. Until it didn't work so well for us, so we changed it. But it is by then a habit, and takes a lot of work to change.

What we did: SAME EXACT routine every night... All steps done calmly, no high diving fish in the bathtub, no tickling games when getting jammies on.

1. calm play in the evening (hour plus before bedtime routine started)
2. 30 minutes before bedtime routine started "just a little more time to play before we go up for bed!"
3. dp took her up for a nice bath (they make lavender baby wash - I tried to have as many signs that this was bedtime as possible)
4. into jammies
5. brush teeth and hair
6. read bedtime stories (actual stories about going to bed - we had Sandra Boynton's board book called Going to Bed, also Mem Fox's... oh, I'll have to go up and look, dd3 still has them - anyway, three board books about going to bed) with dd on my lap in the glider rocker - or in bed after she was out of the crib (when we first started this, she was 12 months and still nursing so I'd nurse her in the glider, then start with the books.)
7. lights dimmed
8. into bed
9. push play on the lullaby cd (has to be a cd; cassettes make a loud click when they end...)
10. blow a kiss
11. close the door

In the beginning, she'd last a minute or two before deciding she was done with the whole thing. So I'd go in and repeat a boring, monotone "it's bedtime, sweetie. Dark outside. Everyone is going to sleep. Night-night, Daddy. Night-night, Mommy. Night-night, Kitty." Back out (restarting cd if necessary). There were times that I had to lie down on the floor in her room - I'd usually fall asleep in the dark with the nice music playing.









Honestly, she wasn't thrilled with it all the time. But I remember how painfully frustrating it was when our lives were disrupted with sleep issues. We were all much happier when we got it figured out.

I'd do it slowly.... like 1/2 hour earlier for a few days, then 1/2 hour earlier than that - just pulling bedtime back gradually. There is just no way that a habit of going to bed at 1:00 a.m. will switch to 9:00 p.m. quickly.

Must also second wannabe's thoughts on lightness/darkness in his room. Make it dark when you want him to sleep, and pull the shades when it is morning. Let the normal cycles of the sun help you. I know that I'll sleep in much later when I have my blackout shades closed. If I keep them open a foot on the top, I wake up by 7:00; it just happens.

I hope you find a routine that works soon. I know how hard it is when they don't sleep. The change to something new will be a hard transition but you can do it.


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## lauren819 (Jun 7, 2007)

Ugh, that sucks. Do you have a bedtime routine? I'd get one, and see if that might help. Like bath, 2-3 books, pjs, something like that. And then whatever you pick, do it in the same order every night. It also sounds like a little firmness might be in order, like the pp suggested. No getting out of the room, lights out, etc. He might resist, but come on, he's almost 2, he's testing his boundaries. He'll figure it out if you put your foot down about it. That's just crazy, you need some sleep! Sounds like he does, too.
ETA: Ok, I didn't read all the posts, and saw that Kirsten had a much better post about routines than mine hehe.....so yeah, what she said.


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## a_cthelen (Jul 14, 2006)

Big hugs for you. Sounds like you have gotten a lot of excellent advice in the way of routines and rescheduling his sleep patterns. IME, if ds doesn't get his full nap in, he won't go to bed earlier and usually stays up past his "bedtime". He generally sleeps around 2 hours. Lately, he's been taking a 30 min nap and then wanting to take a late nap for about an hour. That is throwing me off and making his bedtime wacky, too.

I hope you can come to a resolution soon. Your sleep is important to raise your babe.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

thanks for all the great responses and no flaming, i appreciate it.
i don't actually think he is really rude or disobedient, i know he is tired and is just lashing out because he doesn't have enough words to tell me the problem...that doesn't really make it easier though.

today was a strange day because haye didn't nap (and didn't want to nap until 7)...so i kept him up and we went to the park and had a bath etc. he fell asleep at 11:30, i know he was overtired and i feel bad but i couldn't let him nap until 9 and then be up until 4







: ...that would be taking us about 12 steps back.
plus, my mom and sister came from a different province to stay for a week and got here right when he should have been going down for his nap. i'm hoping this helps.

i'm going to keep a sleep diary for the next few weeks and see if he regulates himself, i also agree that we need a better routine, because we don't really have one right now. he usually gets a bath with dad, but that isn't at a set time and isn't just before bed, it's whenever he's sticky/whenever they want. we do read him bedtime stories (about going to bed) before it's bedtime, and we try and play quieter and softer but he doesn't always want to do that. i like the idea of not playing after midnight, just reading books.

but yes, i need a bedtime routine.
for sure.
i would love if he was in bed by 11, that would be great for us. haye usually sleeps 11-11 or so...that's why this schedule frustrates me so much.
even 10-10 would be great.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

You've had a lot of good advice.









My .02 would be

(a) Molars. They can take forever to come in, and they are big&nasty suckers, and the pain precedes the actual eruption by a long time, months, even. So don't discount it just because you can't see 'em or don't expect 'em.

(b) When he gets up, don't give him any more attention. Read and ignore him, if you don't want to be in bed with him or in bed at all at that point. But I'd personally just have a few nights of getting him in bed at the earlier hour (9-ish or whenever) with the lights out, and you can be there in the room sleeping with him or not, but the lights stay out. And if he gets up, the lights are still out. You're sleeping and paying no attention (even if you're not sleeping at all and completely aware of what he's doing at all times IYKWIM







).








This stage passes. And then he's 16 and out with friends at 1 a.m. and you're still not getting any sleep ...


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ryleeee* 
he fell asleep at 11:30, i know he was overtired and i feel bad but i couldn't let him nap until 9 and then be up until 4







: ...that would be taking us about 12 steps back.

What if you put him down for the night at 9? He wouldn't have slept for the rest of the night? (if you put him in jammies etc).


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

I haven't read every response yet. Our 20 month old NEEDS to be on a very consistent sleep routine otherwise all hell breaks loose. I know a lot of people on these forums are against routines but we need one for our sanity and for HIS sanity too! We tried a lot of things but in the end it came down to being totally rigid with what time he gets in the house in the evening and then starts winding down and is in bed by, and also when he naps.

DS wakes with the dawn regardless of blackout shades.. so right now he's up at 5am like clockwork which means I put him to sleep at 6, but later in the year it's more reasonable and he gets up at 6 and I put him to bed at 7-730. He MUST be in the house 1.5 hours before bedtime, and we spend like 1 hour doing the same thing every night before bed, including his bedtime music.. he nurses before sleep but not to sleep, we snuggle to sleep. He naps once at 12pm for about 1.5 hours, we work really hard not to let him sleep before 12pm because the earlier he gets to nap, the easier it is for him to wake up at 4am and be like woohoo lets start the day! It sounds really anal to enforce his being in the house for that long before bed, doing the same things every night but we HAVE to because ds is one of those kids who would never sleep EVER if it was up to him. Btw. if his nap is not over by 230 then he cannot fall asleep until very late at night and sleeps very poorly at night. If he is not asleep BY 1230pm for his nap then all hell breaks loose and we have about 1.5 hours of screaming before he actually falls asleep for his nap.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_if my ds takes 3 naps a day he's out at 7pm if he takes two it's 8.30-9 and if he's had none (as usual) it's 12am-1am i feel you pain! i know this will sound counter productive by maybe try more naps?_


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

so many good suggestions... I understand your frustration, hang in there!

Just another suggestion - any new foods? some children have odd allergies to things, lsaw it on oprah once, a girl became a wild child after eating peas. Maybe you could look at his diet, eliminate milk before late evening etc.

Good luck


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

oh! the last poster reminded me.... DS cannot eat milk protein, it makes him cough at night and gives him really dark circles under his eyes and he wakes about 20 times per night instead of 3 or so.

He also has salicylate issues which are a whole different ballgame but mean the difference between a spirited and fun/sweet toddler and um, to quote someone else because I would not say this of my own son "devil's spawn."


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i'm reading it and it talks about how kids of various ages need various amounts of sleep, and how if they're overtired it makes sleeping harder...

maybe he is not sleeping enough? though i don't know how you would "make" him sleep.

i don't know anything, can't help you, but just thought i'd throw that book title out there. i'm finding it really interesting.


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## megincl (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i'm reading it and it talks about how kids of various ages need various amounts of sleep, and how if they're overtired it makes sleeping harder...

maybe he is not sleeping enough? though i don't know how you would "make" him sleep.

i don't know anything, can't help you, but just thought i'd throw that book title out there. i'm finding it really interesting.










I was going to suggest this. You'll read in it a few examples of families who DRASTICALLY changed bedtime. Like from 10pm to 7pm. And it worked! I'm not saying that's the magic solution, but she's got some great insight. She's also the author of The Spirited Child, which helped me feel she was more credible (being that my kiddo is spirited, as it sounds like yours might be too!).

I think it's awesome that you're thinking about creating routine -- we have found that the shorter and more concrete ours is, the better. We also, when we can, try to add in some good sensory play before the routine, like swinging in a blanket, pushing on the walls, jumping on a trampoline, etc. DS has SPD (sensory issues), but I think those kinds of things can really help most kids to regulate their bodies, which ultimate helps with sleep.

I totally hear you on how all the sleep issues make you







: and







: . Good luck, and take it one day at a time!

be well,
megin


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## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

Are you able to alter your sleep schedule? My older dd is naturally a night owl and I've just adjusted to it--I don't have the patience or inclination for trying to go against her clock. Sorry ... I can see it is very trying for you...hopefully you can find a solution that works for all of you.


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## ChinaDoll (Jul 27, 2003)

I'm sure you must be completely frazzled!

I'd definitely start waking him earlier and earlier each day, so that he'd be tired earlier. And lots of exercise outside, so the sunlight can reset his internal clock. Sleep in a DARK room, and try melatonin about an hour before bed. That also really helps to reset their internal sleep clocks. Good luck!


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

okay, so it is slowly getting a bit better! he is usually down by 11 which is totally fine with me! it's so much better than 2 am.

the problem we are having creating a routine with him is that we live with our best friends: 1 upstairs and 2 downstairs (all 23-25 year old boys







), so there are 6 of us in one house...and that's not including all 5 million of our friends that take advantage of our open door policy (for the most part)...so yeah.

we are moving in october, i'm hoping that will settle us down.

also, my husband gets home from work around 9/10 pm and haye HAS to play with daddy before bed or he wakes up later looking for him.

ugh.
he is still breastfed, so i don't need to cut milk from his diet...he was quite reactionary to dairy products for a long time, but he is so much better now and loves his cheese and yogurt, i don't think that's the problem.

i did feel his back gums recently and it feels like the last 4 molars are slowly making their way up, he's really drooly and bitey lately. he went to bed last night at 1:30







: but he went down for a nap at 1/4 to 3 today because he woke up around 10 am. i think he'll probably be sleeping before midnight tonight.


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