# Children aren't disposable, why should their diapers be?



## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

Sent this letter to the editor of the Tallahassee Democrat today in response to this:

http://www.diaperdrop.com

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----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Forbes-Lyons
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:24 PM
Subject: Children aren't disposable, why should their diapers be?

I appreciate the effort that the Capital Area Diaper Drop is making to provide for the needy families in our area. However, I am distressed that instead of providing the means to help break the cycle of dependency on disposable products, they are perpetuating the need for expensive and nonrenewable products. For approximately the cost of 120 days worth of disposable diapers, you could provide high-quality cloth diapers, covers, liners and wipes that would last the entire diapering cycle of a child with proper care. Today's cloth diapers are as easy to use as disposables, easy to care for and are better for babies and the environment. If the Healthy Start Coalition, Kiwanis Clubs, and America's Second Harvest of The Big Bend really want to help the area's needy families, they should provide cloth diapers, accessories and laundry products.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

The one problem with cloth diapers is that unless the family has continual cheap access to getting them cleaned, disposables are far more convenient.

With us, we were all gung ho about cloth. Until after DS was born. Our landlady said we could use her machine any time we wanted to... boy was that a bunch of bullshavick. So instead, we decided to go disposable.

If we had been living here instead of there, he would have been in cloth. Instead, we did what was economically feasible for us. We were barely able to do our own laundry on a weekly or even bi-weekly basis, so cloth diapers would not have been possible.

this time, we'll see... DS is almost toilet trained and if I start Bun off in cloth, I should be able to go all the way. That and there's a close by diaper service too unlike when ds was born.


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## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

I see your point, totally. But if folks are willing to shell out, say, $10 for a package of no-name 'sposies, why not just hand over a roll of quarters for the laundromat?

All I'm saying is, make it a viable option for folks.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

why not offer diaper service?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Well.. for us.. the 10$ pack of disposies make DS's butt red. They still do. It just takes 1 diaper to do it, so we had to use the expensive name brand Huggies. Pampers just stink and perfumed poop still smells like poop.

They could have handed us the quarters as well, but unless I had transport _to_ the laundromat (a km away in each direction minimum) there was no way I could bring the laundry there. I did try once. Loaded up the stroller and used the bus. Boy did I get in shit with the driver.

So, Huggies we had.

Then our landlady wouldn't let us put out garbage everyweek. So we had to wait at least one week a month or more until we could put it out. And guess which week that a CPS worker showed up and we had all of our garbage cans full of diapers? Yup.. the long week, two days before we could do garbage and four days before we could do laundry. Diapers were piled high to almost spilling over in the bathroom one (the only one DS couldn't get into) and almost as high in the kitchen. And there was at least one more bag full of garbage that he was planning on making disapear during his next work shift. Yup. DP would bring garbage to work and use the restaurant's bin. :LOL

Thankfully, the man was so blind as to what we actually had (he thought it was one room, not a room and a bedroom and a small storage room) that we used it to our advantage and basically blew his report out of the water. *snicker*

We are both about 99.44% certain that our old landlady is now in a home. She was so senile...

*CANUCKS SCORED!!!!!!!! TIED GAME!!! WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!*

sorry.. sorry... back to your regularily scheduled board...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Okay. The last thing many families living in poverty need is more work. Cloth diapers are work, no matter how you look at it. I've done both, and I choose cloth, but cloth is by no means easier, or even as easy, as disposables. The diapers have to be changed more often, cannot just be tossed out, have to be dunked and rinsed (for older children), stored after they are dirtied, and washed. It IS more work, and I don't see what saying that it isn't accomplishes.

Like someone else mentioned, doing cloth in a laundromat is no bowl of cherries. There is not only the cost of the laundromat, but the cost and logistics of transporting the dirty diapers there and finding one that will allow you to do cloth. Not all will. Regular laundry can sit all week and wait for the weekend. I would never let diapers sit an entire week. We're using a laundromat right now and that is the primary reason we arent' using cloth right now. Doing laundry during the week is impossible and I cannot let diapers sit that long. We'll go back to cloth as soon as we move in a month.

A diaper service would be a viable option, I think. But if you just drop off a bunch of cloth diapers and laundry soap, people are just going to buy their own disposables, anyway.


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## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathless Wonder_
*why not offer diaper service?*
There isn't one in Tallahassee. Hasn't been in years. If you do cloth in Tally, you do it all.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

So maybe someone should start one.

I was thinking about doing this myself just last night.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by Penguintrax*
... if folks are willing to shell out, say, $10 for a package of no-name 'sposies, why not just hand over a roll of quarters for the laundromat?

All I'm saying is, make it a viable option for folks._

Not so simple.

We were disposables, went to entirely cloth, and now are about half&half.

Live in an apartment, do not have our own washing machines, do not have a car ... cloth is not so simple. Even if DH does do all the shlepping to and from the laundry, it's still not so simple.

And laundromats that do your laundry for you (when you hand over that roll of quarters) often will not do diapers, and even get mad when you bring them.

:sigh

Just suggesting that it's not always so cut&dried ... & obviously attempting to assuage my own personal shame at the return of occasional disposable use to my home ...


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

If people could help families buy washing machines too, then







that would be great. We bought our washer used for $100 (about 5 packs of sposies). Of course, the family would have to have access to hook-ups







: .

I agree though, I'd like to see families in need being given cloth and a washer, or diaper service, and have sposies be a last resort instead of first. But, seriously, I know lots of people with washers/dryers and plently of time to wash sposies, and they won't even do it, hard to figure how less fortunate families would be able to.

Good for you for at least trying with this though


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Just saying "yep" to what the others have said...........

When I had my daughter I was dirt poor on welfare.......probably someone who would have qualified for a program like that......and theres no way I'd a' been able to take on cloth.......on top of working and going to school, I *rarely* could scrape together enough to change to get our clothing laundered, let alone figure out how to get diapers laundered. No time, no money for cloth. It's the reality of being poor. It's why poor people eat like crap and have to rely on things like disposables.......it's the only thing thats compatible with their lifestyle.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I realize I am being presumptious, but I think you are applying your priveleges to the poor. Some families are stretched so thin that the idea of going to the laundromat on the bus or foot five miles away with a sack of shitty diapers and five kids to drag along with them might be a tad excessive.

Offering a diaper service or cloth and money to wash them is a great alternative in ADDITION to free disposables, but until the holes in the basic fabric of society are at least patched, the utopian idea of all baby butts swaddled in cloth is not achievable.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

I dunno...we were really poor when my two oldest kids were babies, (and both of them were in diapers) and I used cloth diapers (to save money) *and* took them to the laundromat. It was really, really hard, but I stuck it out and still feel a sense of accomplishment, looking back at those years. But we did have a car--I can't imagine how you could take diapers to a laundromat w/out a car.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

This cloth vs sposies debate can be summed up in one phrase:

"Let them eat cake."

Which is how a lot of people who have a car or a washer/dryer access seem to treat those of us who don't have that.

"Let them eat cake."

The historical annontation to that is that Marie Antoinette was so out of touch with the common people that to her, bread was cake was bread was cake. If she couldn't have bread, she'd eat cake. The common people were rioting on the palace about how they couldn't afford to eat bread. So, she, in her wisdom, told her staff "let them eat cake." The "them" being the common people.

This so enraged the common people that... well.. we all know what happened to her in the end.

And that's exactly what the sposies/cloth argument is.

Yes, sposies are more harmful to the environment, but when you're dirt poor where you have to use the food bank, and you have to scrounge for food money nevermind laundry money, paying 10-20$ for something that can be easily used once and thrown away is a lot less stressfull than having to rinse, reuse, recycle. They don't see it as a bad thing. They see it as a necessity.

A lot of the poor can't afford getting a washer and dryer - even an appartment sized one. Many are told that if they bring stuff like that into the appartment, they'll get kicked out. So, they are stuck using sposies for convenience. A lot easier than getting kicked out of your appartment. And if the building has a laundromat as part of it, you risk loosing clothing. I don't know how many times clothing had been stolen from my wash at the various appartments I've lived in. And a lot of those places if the landlord finds out you're washing cloth diapers in those machines you'll get in such deep caca...

I'm blessed here. I have an insuite laundry. I don't have to worry about someone stealing anything. I can do cloth if I want, but DS is sooo close to being toilet trained... He's running around right now without a diaper on cause he's figured out how to take them off. I didn't have that laundry facility this time last year. If anything, having to beg my little old landlady for use was humiliating. I'm glad I didn't go cloth with her around.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not implying that poor people are not capable of using disposable diapers. They should not be forced to. Unless disposables are outlawed, they should be an option.

I have read Nickel and Dimed, and it is heartbreaking to think of the working poor, living in motels, only able to eat fast food or convenenience food because they have no kitchen to speak of, being forced to use cloth diapers. It is simply not always an option.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Read my food bank rant in the Health: Nutritions Foods section.

You'll be shocked. And they expect the poor here to accept this as normal????


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What about the diaper covers? You have to keep buying these as your child grows. I know there are "one size fits all" but from what I hear, they don't really fit all. Sometimes you have to buy bigger prefolds, too.

I added up the costs of using sposies until age 3 vs. using prefolds and covers, not including the cost of extra hot water, and the sposies were cheaper. (Huggies brand)

Also, if you are poor and on welfare and have to put your kids in daycare, they often won't take cloth. So I think for poor families, sposies might be the only way to go.

I have a small cloth stash for the new babe, but when that gets outgrown, I don't know if I will be able to afford to buy more in a larger size. At least I can go to the Trading Post.


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## Hera (Feb 4, 2002)

What about starting a co-op or not-for-profit diaper service? I wonder if that would be cheaper than providing disposables to people. Somebody would have to bankroll it off the top, provide space for the washers and dryers, and transportation to pick up and deliver. I've never heard of such a thing, I wonder if it would work.....


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Hygeine. The local health board would probably veto everything.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think it would be nice if they were open to cloth diapers. It isn't like they would get that many. most people would automatically assume disposable ezpecially since cloth is getting arder and harder to find in a regular store. not too mention most poeple would rather buy 50 diapers than one. If i had to haul a load of crappy diapers to the laundromat I would never do it. Fortunately we got a washer and dryer as a baby gift.

I htink it is a great way to save money if you have a washing machine and especially if you are having more than one child. It is too bad the program is not more oipen to finding the best solution to individual peoples problems. I know I would have rather been offeredd free cloth than free sposies. Even as poor as we were the one thing we had was a washer and cheap water and a line to dry. On the other hand without those things I would have had to have disposables. If I were working or completely overwhelmed by life in general I would have needed disposables. (still do somedays) .

Anyway like i said, it would have een nice if they could be open to the possibility that someone would want and make good use of cloth. But another thing to consider is they would probably get a bunch of polyester stuffed prefolds and gerber pul up pants in Large and extra large because that is what you an get around here for cheap. I would rather buy disposables that I knew would help someone than cloth that would likely be useless or even worse make someone hate cloth diapers.

If you really think that cloth is the answer contact some of the organizations distributing the diapers and see if they would be intresting in a cloth diaper donation. Perhaps you could start your own cloth diaper drive and work with them. Put notes with packages of diapers that get handed out saying "if you have acess to a washer/if cloth diapers are an option for you/. if you would like to learn more about a poermant diapering solution contact XXXX for more information on cloth diapering eduication and fee cloth diaper distribution. I am sure the organizeres would be thrilled if even one mom took you up on it. That is a mom who will have her needs met and another that can be helped with a few diapers.

with the number of diapers they want to collect they are bby no means providing all the diapers for all the people in town. I think it was like 300,000 diapers. that only adds up to about 3000 packs of diapers, most go through a pack a week or so. Lets say for the sake of easy math that is 50 packs a year. they are collecting enough diapers to supply 60 children for one year. That barely scratches the surface of the number of children in poverty.

Another thing I just thjought of. Somehting that might make you feel better about the disposable factor. Most of these people would rather use sposies that they have to pay for than even try a cloth diaper. Lets face it. At least by providing a couple of extra packs of diapers perhaps the parents will change it mre often rather than waiting until it is so full it will burst. Because that is the reality of it. People who can't afford disposales don't usually switch to cloth .. They just stretch thier disposables as far as they go, changing them only 2-4 times in a 24 hour period.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)




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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm curious....those who don't have ready access to laundry facilities...how do they handle washing clothes?

Geez, my newborn was constantly spitting up, pooping on, or peeing on her clothes (she always seemed to catch me in mid-diaper change). I had to change her many times a day. I had a lot of clothes but still, I did laundry at least twice a week.

So, if you are poor and can't afford baby clothes and can't do laundry much...what do you do?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I'm curious....those who don't have ready access to laundry facilities...how do they handle washing clothes?
For a while, we didn't have a washer/dryer at home. My mom worked a busy schedule, so we could only go to the laundromat once a week. My brother and I would do our homework there, and my mom would get us some kind of snack too.

Also...at the risk of TMI...this was during my betwetting years and the laundromat manager told my mom that peed-on sheets were not allowed in their washers and that he was going to press charges if she brought the sheets again. I don't know if there really is some law about that, but there was nothing we could do then.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I had a friend who was so poor with her two kids that she washed their clothes in a bathtub.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

There is no way that could be against the law. Jerk!

When I was a kid my mom would wash clothes in the bathtub and we would get spanked if we got our clothes overly dirty.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I can imagine she was a very overworked mama, but I am sorry you got spanked.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't know, I think it's a great idea to offer cloth as an alternative for those that want it instead of sposies. When I had my first son I was very broke and I had some cloth for emergencies (when we couldn't afford sposies). I went to the laundromat with them and didn't have an issue (and btw I walked there). Granted I wasn't doing it all the time only on occasion but it was nice to have them for those times that I needed to.

With my second son I made sure to have some around for the same reason., at that point I did have a washer / dryer so it was easier. I primarily used sposies but had them, again, as back-up. They were the cheapos from KMart with the horrible rubber pants but hey when I needed them they were better then nothing! If I had a stash of ones that were more absorbent I might very well have rather had them.

Just because someone is poor doesn't mean they automatically fit into some cookie cutter mold that means 'sposies will be better / easier for their family. Why not have it as an option?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

We wore our clothes until they were filthy and stank. We had the "out of doors" clothes that we'd change into just before we left and take it off when we got back, but those clothes wouldn't be used for day to day stuff.

Lots of urp cloths. Lots of baby clothes. Tons.

And having to wash the clothes in a bucket in the shower wasn't fun. Nor begging my landlady. Nor doing it once every other week when DP could get two days off in a row so we could do it. Nor taking it to our old roomie's place and doing about 2-4 loads and praying they'd all be done before DP got off work. Going to a gf's place and doing laundry in her building's laundromat...

That's how I survived


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

There are probably a substantial number of people who will be getting the diapers that DO have access to a washer/dryer or nearby laundromat, like at the apartment complex or a parent's house.

For many people disposable diapers "blow out," especially in bf babies and like Piglet said you need to wash the whole poopy outfit. They could just throw that in a diaper pail and wash them together.

Bf poop diapers don't need dunking! Just run the machine on a cold prerinse and wash like normal. Your hands never touch the poop! that's about as easy as running to the store or a place to pick up more diapers!

I never get how people say cloth diapering is so much work!! If you had to wash them in the tub it would be. But that is not everyone.

My mom washed cloth diapers for five kids in a ringer washer in an unheated basement. Dh's mom washed them in bathtubs with no dryer in student housing! People do it.

There's this mind set about it perpetuate by corporate advertising about the superiority of disposables.

(I have my own washer and will have been CD-ing 5 years in May. We take cloth on the road, too).


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

people do it. I admire those people who do it. But I think it should be an option.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I'm curious....those who don't have ready access to laundry facilities...how do they handle washing clothes?

Geez, my newborn was constantly spitting up, pooping on, or peeing on her clothes (she always seemed to catch me in mid-diaper change). I had to change her many times a day. I had a lot of clothes but still, I did laundry at least twice a week.

So, if you are poor and can't afford baby clothes and can't do laundry much...what do you do?*
We don't have laundry nor do I have a car.......and I have no clue how I'm gonna do it when this baby gets here. I'm not even CLOSE to caught up to the laundry that the NON burpy ones of us produce....


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

This seems very elitist to me. You use cloth and you have money therefore everyone else should to. When my first son was born, we did not have a washer at home and we did cloth. We washed covers in the sink and hauled diapers to the laundry. But, we had our own vehicle. And I had a husband. We moved into a place and got a washer by the time my babe was 3 months old. I dont think that I would have continued doing cloth had we not. It was costing anywhere from $10-$20 a week, including detergent. I would use the big machine, to get all those rinses. Since we had the cheap diapers(that most everyone would donate if that program got started, since that is what everyone knows) my son would wet through his entire outfit every time!! I would change him into compltely new outfits 8-10 times a day. Now, I am on my third toddler. I was doing cloth with him. Then we moved to Washington. I did my first month of cloth and my electric bill soared. We are now using disposables because they are actuall cheaper than electricity was.

So, I believe that it is wonderful for poor mamas to have the choice. I believe, honestly, that if there was a very poor mama on this board, if she posted asking for help getting a diaper supply together, these mamas would come through. I realize that not all mamas have this resource, but it is great for thoe who can. But, I also believe that the majority of mamas (poor or otherwise) are nt interested in using cloth. Everyone I know, no matter how crunchy, uses disposables at some point. And most people I know are "comfortable" So, add these possibilites: single mother, single mother of many, parents of special needs kids, parents living in a hotel, parents with no home, living in a shelter or camping in the woods, parents working two or three jobs, parents with drug and alcohol problems, parents with mental or physical illnesses, and I think it is incredibly callous to strap them with this additional burden.

If you are concerned about the environamental impact of charities, start hounding your local food banks and the stores that donat to the food banks and lobby for them to provide poor people with nutritious foods, organic food and less donuts and pastries!! Try to find a placec that will realistically help BOTH the families and the environment!


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penguintrax_
*... they should provide cloth diapers, accessories and laundry products.*
So, your assumption is that the people benefitting from this Diaper Drop have washer/dryers? Or at least ready access and plenty of quaters for laundrymats? Perhaps it would be of benefit for you to visit, or even volunteer with, a few of the organizations listed as distributing these diapers.

Quote:

_Originally posted by monnie_
*...My mom washed cloth diapers for five kids in a ringer washer in an unheated basement. Dh's mom washed them in bathtubs with no dryer in student housing! People do it...*
Were these single mothers? With full-time jobs? Who were also going to school? Because when I've worked in shelters, the majority of my clients have been single mothers, who worked full time and many of them were in some sort of continuing education program as well.

Mamid, I absolutely agree with you about the "Let them eat cake" aspect to this whole discussion. Thank you for sharing your pov here.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by monnie_
*...There's this mind set about it perpetuate by corporate advertising about the superiority of disposables...*
and

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penguintrax_
*...Today's cloth diapers are as easy to use as disposables, ...*
I've done cloth and I've done disposable. Based on my own experience, disposable were much, _much_ easier. They were also hell on my son's skin and on the enviroment, so I switched to cloth when he was two months old and used only cloth until he potty trained at age 2. However, I didn't need corporate advertising to tell me that taking something off my baby and throwing it in the trash was easier than taking something off my baby, soaking it, washing it, drying it and folding it. I think saying cloth diapers are "as easy to use as disposables" is disingenuous.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

I read through the info on the websote for the drop, and it lists these reasons as why not to use cloth: many clients don't have washers and dryers and day care won't take them. These could be generalizations, but I think these statements are porbably coming straight from the agencies wo are speaking atright to the clients.
And, I really struggle to imagine this is somehow tied to corporate greed! It is not in any way being funded by disposable diaper makers!
I agree pugmadmama, that sposies are easier. And in my case, all of my kids broke out with cloth and they dont break out with sposies. I can tweak a lot of things to get them to clear up. but it takes a heck of a lot of time and effort. Or, I can put him in a sposie and he clears up in a day or two,.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

Mamid, I absolutely agree with you about the "Let them eat cake" aspect to this whole discussion. Thank you for sharing your pov here.
Thanks for telling me this.

I've had people go whole hog on me with the entire cloth/sposies thing. I told my gf who was making me "one size fits most" ones that I'd need at least 100 in order to survive DS in a week. She told me that I'd only need 20 at the most because I wouldn't be able to stand the smell and would wash them every other day in my landlady's washer.

We all know how often I got to use that.







:

Anyway, when I was raising DD, Dickwad (don't edit the name moderators, that's what I call him and its appropriate cause that's all he ever was) told me I had to use cloth yet he wouldn't budget for a service (the local laundromat had one. best diapers I ever saw) AND he refused to make sure I had enough laundry money to do them in the building's laundry. So we ended doing sposies and he gripped the entire time.

With DS, DP was more the willing to try and was even looking for a local diaper service. Hell, I could probably still switch if I wanted to since there is one here not like the other city we lived at. We might do cloths for the next babe, but I don't know yet.

Anyway, after trying to keep up for 2 days, I gave up. I still had mine for emergencies just in case we ran out and couldn't afford sposies for a few days. Had to use them a few times as well.

But when I took the soaking diapers to laundromat a and c, I got glared at by one of the workers and just about kicked out by another. Laudromat b was at least reasonable and told me to double wash them just to be sure. I didn't mind doing that because of previous experience.

See.. back when I was living in the states Seatac area, I didn't have a greencard so I was doing whatever I could to help out the people I lived with - my abusive boyfriend, our strung-out-drugg-addicted-roomie-with-a-.35, and our other roomie the reasonable one. I was supposed to have been able to just go to INS and get a green card cause my dad was US, but not even over 10 years later have they bothered to issue me one.

Anyway, since I couldn't get paid legally, there wasn't much for me to do. But the guys needed their laundry done. BF and the good roomie would give me theres to do, with the good roomie handing me the cash needed to do it all. I also got mine done at the same time.

So I met with one of the guys that worked at the laundromat and found out that in exchange for the owner giving him a place to crash, he did all the diapers at night since this was also a diaper service and the day workers - all immigrants who didn't speak english well - didn't wash the diapers clean enough.

We made arrangements and for about 2 months anytime I needed mine or the roomie's or BF's laundry done, I went there and did it in exchange for helping this guy sort, wash, dry, fold and set the orders. He did all the paperwork, I was just an extra pair of hands.

Some of those diapers.... lets just say I've pretty much blocked out that memory out of necessity. Unsoaked, uncleaned with week old shit glued to the fabric I had to strip off and get rid off. And if we tossed too many, he got in shit for it, so we had to try to save all these mouldy, crummy, ugly diapers.

And we were told NOT to use bleach or any sterilizers because it cost too much. Just plain old soap and no fabric softener.

At least the guy was nice and if he had a few extra dollars, he'd give me one or two.

That's what I mean by hygeine. Diaper services can't guarantee that their stuff is clean. Mostly, maybe. But in reality, unless you do it yourself, can you trust a service?

And how can you do it yourself unless you have your own washer? Even the wringer washer my mother had when I was a kid was at least a help in getting our clothes clean.

Honestly, I think I'll stick with sposies with the next kid as well. I might try cloth, but knowing DP, he'll just grab the sposies any time we go grocery shopping cause even he finds them easier to deal with. Yes I know 1 kid does a ton of garbage in a year etc etc etc, but with the electricity going up, I doubt I'll be able to afford it for washing diapers in the machine.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

I think the whole cloth diaper mind set has changed. Eleven years ago, when I was taking cloth diapers to the laundromat, cloth was seen as the frugal choice. Amy Dacyzyn of _The Tightwad Gazette_ was a big cloth diaper advocate. (And she took hers to the laundromat too.)

But now there's this huge materialistic, elitist culture surrounding cloth diapers. You have people bidding $75 at ebay for one diaper--a cute diaper, but for G-d's sake, a baby's going to poop in it! Covers cost a fortune, and mothers who use the old fashioned pre-folds with pins and vinyl pants are looked down on.

Why is this? I never could afford fancy covers, so I used the plastic pants and pins and I *know* it was cheaper than sposies, even with the laundromat cost factored in.

But now there's this elitist "Wahhh! My baby pooped all over my $60 fuzzibunz!" thing going, and I can see that low-income mothers who might want to try cloth would be totally turned off by it.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by daylily_
*I think the whole cloth diaper mind set has changed. Eleven years ago, when I was taking cloth diapers to the laundromat, cloth was seen as the frugal choice. Amy Dacyzyn of The Tightwad Gazette was a big cloth diaper advocate. (And she took hers to the laundromat too.)

But now there's this huge materialistic, elitist culture surrounding cloth diapers. You have people bidding $75 at ebay for one diaper--a cute diaper, but for G-d's sake, a baby's going to poop in it! Covers cost a fortune, and mothers who use the old fashioned pre-folds with pins and vinyl pants are looked down on.

Why is this? I never could afford fancy covers, so I used the plastic pants and pins and I *know* it was cheaper than sposies, even with the laundromat cost factored in.

But now there's this elitist "Wahhh! My baby pooped all over my $60 fuzzibunz!" thing going, and I can see that low-income mothers who might want to try cloth would be totally turned off by it.*
No kidding! I'm turned off by it, to some degree. I use the cheapest AIOs I feel won't fall apart. I recently encouraged a pregnant friend to consider doing cloth and I was actually embarrassed to show her some cloth diapering links. I didn't want her to think that everyone who uses cloth refuses to cover the baby's butt with pants and lives and dies to get the cutest, most expensive diaper they can afford.


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## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

Ya know...I really thought I was doing something good by writing that letter and sharing it here. I by no means feel elitist and if the space allowed for a letter to an editor would have allowed it, I probably would have mentioned many of the points made here. But, space doesn't allow for it, so I tried to make my point in as small a space as possible.

I realize that many folks don't have laundry facitlities on site, but many do. But look at the facts - 40 years ago, when I was born, there weren't disposable dipes and poor, and rich, folks had to use cloth and found a way to do it, diaper service or no.

As I stated previously, the point of my letter was to say "Make cloth an option".

Thanks for making me feel like crap.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Barbara-

I hope you know that I thought your intentions were good, and I agree, it should be an option. I wish more people (of all levels of income) would use cloth, and that sposies would only be used for people who simply cannot make cloth work, but I know that is pretty idealistic.

I watched this thread go downhill fast and felt bad that your good intentions were being put down and called things like "elitist"







Sometimes you just get the wrong crowd reading your thread, I am sure this would have been very well received in the diapering forum, keep trying! You can't please all of the people all of the time---esp. in activism:LOL .


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Look-- a lot of things were different 40 years ago, and I don't think poor people should have to live like it is the 1950's if no one else does. We expect women and poor people to take up the slack for everyone else. Mothers are the ones who are pressured to save the world by using cloth diapers instead of disposables while the rest of the world goes to McDonald's and throws away everything that touches their hands. Poor people are expected to use public transportation while the people in teh suburbs drive Ford Expeditions loaded with one toddler and a poodle to the post office.

I also submit that you have a lot of mamas right here on MDC that are poor and cannot afford, for whatever reason, to do cloth. Sometimes just being able to save money is a priviledge. I'm fortunate that, most of the time, I do have access to laundry facilities so that cloth diapering is less expensive for me. The fact is that doing cloth is more time consuming and when your time is stretched thin as it is, one more thing taking it up is just too much.

You stated your opinion and got a reaction. Note that a lot of the people that posted on this thread use cloth. I do, when I have access to laundry facilities. No one is saying that you are a horrible person for suggesting such a thing. I think that your heart is in the right place, but there are things you just didn't consider. No shame in that. But it is classist to assume that everyone has the same options that you, and that everyone can just make it work if they try hard enough.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

:


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I realize that many folks don't have laundry facitlities on site, but many do. But look at the facts - 40 years ago, when I was born, there weren't disposable dipes and poor, and rich, folks had to use cloth and found a way to do it, diaper service or no.
Yep, that's true, and babies had to be breastfed because there was no formula. (Actually, they were often fed cows milk or gruel.) But now that we have sposies, and formula, no employer or daycare provider or welfare caseworker or homeless shelter is going to act as though we don't have them. I doubt any of us, if faced with being a single mother to several children who has no car, lives nowhere near a laundromat (and has no quarters anyway) and is in danger of getting their water shut off, is going to say "Well, my grandma did this; so can I! Linclon used a nail for a pencil and wrote on a shovel! Uphill in the snow, both ways!"

If I were fleeing an abusive relationship and going to the domestic violence center, do you think they are going to give in to my request to use cloth only? If I could find a cheap daycare center that would take kids in cloth, would they change them as often as necessary, or would they expect to change them only as often as sposies are changed? (I remember leaving dd with her grandparents for 4 hours and she would not be changed once.







) If I can't pay the electric bill, will they keep it turned on anyway because I am using cloth? If they shut it off, will they give me rolls of quarters so I can go to the laundromat? If I have six kids, are they going to provide childcare after-hours so I can get there? Or, will they just pay for a diaper service?

Perhaps the mothers here who strongly feel that everyone should use cloth no matter what can do things to make it happen. They can buy newborn diaper packages, enough to last at least a week before laundry needs to be done, and donate them to needy families. They could chip in for a diaper service, offer rides to laundromats, help out with electric bills. Maybe they could even volunteer at homeless and domestic violence shelters as the resident cloth diapering tutor, making themselves available to answer questions and give diapering demonstrations.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Barbara, I wasn't trying to make you feel like crap. I agree with your original post, but then I was surprised at the anger that got stirred up, and I think that a lot of it has to do with the super-expensive image that cloth diapers have now.

One of my most embarrassing moments, here at MDC, was a few years ago when someone in the "Diapers" forum started a thread about "revealing your stash." So I listed my 75 prefolds, 10 plastic pants and several sets of pins and I looked like a total jerk b/c everyone else listed specific name brands, styles, etc. It totally turned me off the diapering forum. That doesn't mean I think *everyone* who uses cloth is like that, but to the uninitiated, it might seem like that.

I just finished a book about the history of women in America. Diapers were a major hassle for women of the past. Washing them was such an arduous task, that it was common practice to air-dry dirty diapers and then just put them right back on the babe. Sometimes it was the job of the family dog to lick the baby clean.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

the expensive diapers freak me out a little too. I just don't get it. But that's me. If I want to understand I can try to read more I guess.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

daylily was that book called perfection salad?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I happen to have a book on pregnancy, birth and parenting from 1944. It says that diapers should be washed and boiled, then line-dried. It also says not to use rubber pants unless you are going somewhere with the baby. So babies wore just a prefold and then their clothes. I can imagine poop was everywhere. (This also assumed the mother was staying home full-time, or that she had access to a babysitter.)

It recommends starting toilet training around 3 months, which should be finished by 17 months. Now I know why.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Pie, it was called _America's Women: 400 years of dolls, drudges, helpmates and____. (I forget the last thing.) It was really, really good. I think the author's name is Gail Collins or Conway or something.

And I just want to clarify, I never said that cloth diapering is elitist, just that it has an elitist image. And maybe that's a good thing. If cloth dipes are seen as a status thing, then more people will want to use them.

If this thread had been started here three years ago, it would have gotten a more positive response, I think.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Barbara, please don't feel bad. I think it was a lovely sentiment to provide mothers with the choice of cloth diapers, rather than condemning them all to 'sposies under the idea that poor people should just be thankful for what they get (which is sort of the idea I had reading your OP). It's not your fault, nor mine, that we have no experience with the sorts of crushing poverty described here. While obviously I know that there are some very poor people out there, it is not at all part of my life experience. And so, when I read your OP, I thought "hey that's a neat idea".

Reading all the other posts here has given me an education, and for that I'm thankful and appreciative. For the most part, it was done without judgement of yours (or my) ignorance. Because ignorance is not a crime, nor a fault. It's just a fact of circumstance. And people should think about that some more before accusing anyone of not understanding deep poverty as being an "elitist".

I don't think I am elitist simply because I wouldn't have considered some of the issues facing poor mamas that have been mentioned here - why would I? I don't know anybody that poor, and have never been that poor, so why would I just automatically know to take those things into consideration? Similarly, someone who pokes fun at those who like to spend money on nice diapers is probably not a "reverse elitist", either. Perhaps it is as outside of someone else's life experience that buying nice diapers can be a real pleasure and something they enjoy sharing with other like-minded mamas, as it is outside my life's experience to not be able to get yourself and your laundry to a laundromat (and one that doesn't allow diapers, to boot).

I think we should all be a little more respectful of the diversity of this board, particularly with respect to socioeconomic status. Having money and spending it on diapers is not a moral crime, nor is it a moral crime to choose disposables b/c your life is a huge struggle and anything that can help ease that is a blessing.

Bashing people for having money and judging their spending priorities is no better than applying your spending/environmental/etc priorities to someone with far fewer resources than yourself.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penguintrax_
*Ya know...I really thought I was doing something good by writing that letter and sharing it here. I by no means feel elitist and if the space allowed for a letter to an editor would have allowed it, I probably would have mentioned many of the points made here. But, space doesn't allow for it, so I tried to make my point in as small a space as possible.

I realize that many folks don't have laundry facitlities on site, but many do. But look at the facts - 40 years ago, when I was born, there weren't disposable dipes and poor, and rich, folks had to use cloth and found a way to do it, diaper service or no.

As I stated previously, the point of my letter was to say "Make cloth an option".

Thanks for making me feel like crap.*
Barbara, you did a good thing. I am surprised about the vehemence against making cloth diapers an OPTION







:


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Formula was invented in 1867History of baby formula
Disposable diapers were invented in 1948 (although I'm sure there was something earlier that was also disposable)
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/donovan.htm

Cloth diapers are an option, but not for everyone. There is a certain mindset that deals with cloth, and not everyone and her buddy has it.

And honestly, the poor and new mothers have enough stress as it is. Give them a break. If they stick with sposies, its to keep down their stress, not to infuriate you.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

To the OP, your heart was in the right place hon.

To everyone else I understand you! I have been trying to convince dh I want to go to cloth for environmental reasons but he keeps harping we can't "afford to" because I can go to hellmart or target and spend about $8.00 on a pack of diapers for at least a week, maybe 2 weeks or I can buy 1 cloth diaper for $8-15 dollars. Obviously his choice is sposies because frankly you do get more for your dollar at one time. Maybe long term it's cheaper for some people but that depends on what works for your child in terms of diaper system, how much electricity and water cost in your area and frankly in terms of 'time'. Yeah I understand I can at least reuse and possibly resell a cloth diaper but the point is if you are broke and need diapers and your choice is one diaper or a week's worth what looks better to you?


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

no one here stated that cloth can't be an option. And this was a pretty calm discussion and not mean nor full of personal attacks. I doubt the OP put this out there so everyone could pat her on the back and agree with her?

And don't tell me that there aren't cloth mamas out there who think ANYONE who uses disposable diapers is lazy and doesn't care about the earth or their babies tushies. That mindset is definitely out there.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Sorry, I can't let this go, and if it wasn't directed at me, then I apologize in advance.

Quote:

Bashing people for having money and judging their spending priorities is no better than applying your spending/environmental/etc priorities to someone with far fewer resources than yourself.
I did not "bash" anyone for having money or for their spending priorities. I simply made what was meant to be a lighthearted stab at the absurdities in the cloth diapering community's extreme fringe.

Good grief! I cloth diapered all four of my kids.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pie_
*no one here stated that cloth can't be an option.*








: The way I understood it the OP was tying to get cloth added as an option, and people were saying it couldn't be done because of lack of laundry facilities.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*...You stated your opinion and got a reaction. Note that a lot of the people that posted on this thread use cloth. I do, when I have access to laundry facilities. No one is saying that you are a horrible person for suggesting such a thing. I think that your heart is in the right place, but there are things you just didn't consider. No shame in that. But it is classist to assume that everyone has the same options that you, and that everyone can just make it work if they try hard enough.*
Thank you for saying this so well!

I could have written that letter ten years ago. Then I started working at shelters and my eyes were opened *wide*.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by daylily_
*I did not "bash" anyone for having money or for their spending priorities. I simply made what was meant to be a lighthearted stab at the absurdities in the cloth diapering community's extreme fringe.*
My comment wasn't directed at you personally. I do get a bit sick of hearing people go on about expensive diapers though (as in, what sort of frivolous spendaholic "wastes" $50 on a diaper). Just because spending money on fancy dipes isn't one person's cup of tea, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with someone else doing so.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Adding cloth as an option is a good idea. Forcing poor people to use cloth because "its cheaper" when it comes to the donation (one package of cloth diapers = many packages of sposies) is ludicrous. If someone is so poor that they aren't sure of when they can do laundry next even with their own machine, why force them into doing something they really shouldn't be doing? Why force those who have to wash things in the sink do that with cloth?

With the way CPS is right now, if that diaper on your kid isn't changed the milisecond it gets dirty, you're being neglectful and should have your child taken away. Don't believe me? Every single time I saw a CPS worker they all but demanded that I undress my child right then. After all, if the kid has diaper rash, I'm being neglectful. If the kid is in a dirty diaper, I'm being neglectful. If there is a pile of dirty diapers that have to be cleaned or thrown out, I'm being neglectful....

And with CPS continously going after poor parents for neglect or anything else that can be dreamt up, using cloth when they don't have a laundry facility is just opening themselves up to being a huge target. Hell, not having enough food in the house is a removable offence. Not having enough beds, clothing, clean enough...

So why stress them out more about trying to keep diapers washed and clean when they have enough to worry about?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*Forcing poor people to use cloth because "its cheaper" when it comes to the donation (one package of cloth diapers = many packages of sposies) is ludicrous.*
Did somebody say that?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

T

pilesoflaundry- I'm thinking due to your username- cloth may not be for you, maybe your dh is right







:LOL


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:



Quote:

Originally posted by Mamid
Forcing poor people to use cloth because "its cheaper" when it comes to the donation (one package of cloth diapers = many packages of sposies) is ludicrous
_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Did somebody say that?







*
Not in those words, but let's face it.. the initial outlay for cloth IS cheaper than sposies. 30-100 cloth diapers will generally last 1 child almost the entire first year. A sposies baby will go through 100 in a week easily during the first weeks.

So it is cheaper to donate, but not cheaper for the recipient to use. Nor is it easier.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

The OP was not about forcing people to use cloth. It's about adding it as an option.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Adding it as an option is fine. But removing the sposies option is not a good idea.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*







T

pilesoflaundry- I'm thinking due to your username- cloth may not be for you, maybe your dh is right







:LOL*










but shhhh don't tell him that!


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

I do get a bit sick of hearing people go on about expensive diapers though (as in, what sort of frivolous spendaholic "wastes" $50 on a diaper). Just because spending money on fancy dipes isn't one person's cup of tea, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with someone else doing so.
I get what you're saying, Piglet, and of course people should be able to spend their money however they want. But I'll just counter that I get annoyed when I hear the fancy cover crowd disparage plastic pants. Plastic pants and pins are really the only option for people who are using cloth for money-saving purposes.

On a lighter note, I find it amusing that things like wool soakers are back in style. I wish my grandmother were alive to see this--she'd be amazed. I inheirited her old knitting patterns and included is one for a homemade "soaker" made of wool. I'm sure the women of my grandmother's generation ditched their soakers with alacrity when plastic pants came on the market.


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## Mothernature (Jun 10, 2002)

Quote:

On a lighter note, I find it amusing that things like wool soakers are back in style. I wish my grandmother were alive to see this--she'd be amazed. I inheirited her old knitting patterns and included is one for a homemade "soaker" made of wool. I'm sure the women of my grandmother's generation ditched their soakers with alacrity when plastic pants came on the market.
Ok, this is a little OT aside, but I'll get to the point in a second. Just last week we were visiting with Dh's grandmother and ds spit up all over his pants so I removed them to reveal his mommy-knitted wool soaker. She was sooo impressed and said she used the same thing on her children. She also said I was born in the wrong decade.

Now, to the point of the post. I have been on every side of this. When dh and I were first married we were dirt poor and lived in "ghetto apartments" that should have been condemned. It did miraculously have limited laundry facilities. We went weeks at a time before doing laundry because of lack of funds and frequently lost clothing due to theft. However, if I had been diapering a baby, I would have been greatful for a donation of cloth diapers and covers as well as the roll of quarters and laundry supplies so I could do all the laundry. Now I'm in a different place in life. I Dh is making enough money for me to stay at home with our 2 dc. For us this means making some sacrafices financially, but it's important to us that one of us is with our children. Cloth diapering is one way I can save our family $$ (and really staying home saves us $$ for daycare and second vehicle expenses, etc.) I bought 2 dozen used CPF for $30 and knitted 4 wool soakers for approximately $45. I made 3 more wool soakers from recycled wool sweaters at no expense to me. When I bought the prefolds the seller included a bonus snappi for free. So, for $75 original investment and about 20 min extra /week (I don't fold the diapers or dunk them) I can cloth diaper my baby until potty training. I now have a washer and dryer so that is a luxury some of the recipiants would not have, but the article actually mentioned there are those in need that you wouldn't even suspect. If cloth diapers were allowed as an option, how many more mothers might give them a try. I realize that my circumstances are much better than many people living in poverty, heck I've been there myself, but I still would have appreciated the option. The OPer isn't being insensitive to suggest that.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:

_Originally posted by monnie_
*







: The way I understood it the OP was tying to get cloth added as an option, and people were saying it couldn't be done because of lack of laundry facilities.*
I for one was stating that it shouldn't be required. I was extrapolating on the issue. Also the OP made it sould like disposables (I refuse to say sposies) are the devil and any poor person who uses them is making a grave mistake. I'm sorry, it's how I read it.

It's a great idea to offer an alternative! I agree!!! The rest of it is frosting. A conversation.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

So people really spend up to $75 on one diaper?! A used one? I guess they can do whatever they want with their own money, but WHY, when I've never seen a brand-new AIO for more than $25?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Yup- there are some diapers - Fuzbaby being one- that are very pricey- sort of like limited editions. There are collectors for everything- and you can resell these things for what you paid for them.

This is another story from the avg. cloth diaperer. I say, it's fine for WAHMs to make these "works of diaper art" and people buy them.

It's a low-impact, environmentally concious business for most. Not easy on the pocketbook- but people are free to choose what to do with their "disposable" income LOL.

If you don't have a lot of disposable income, you're probably not buying Fuzbaby, unless you just love them so much you are sacrificing elsewhere in your budget. This is all OK. Hey- there are clunker cars, economy cars and luxury cars. We all drive something different. If you love cars, you might sacrifice to get a special one. if you don't care about cars, you'll get functional. Same with cloth diapers.

Something for everyone. And plastic pants are just fine, too. It's whatver works. Some people dissed my dhs 1977 Chevy Caprice because he is a working professional and could afford better, but hey- he liked it and that's what matters. Don't let anyone make you feel bad about your cloth diaper system- plastic pants or diaper art- it all comes out in the wash.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

caprices are coming back into style.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by daylily_
*But now there's this huge materialistic, elitist culture surrounding cloth diapers. You have people bidding $75 at ebay for one diaper--a cute diaper, but for G-d's sake, a baby's going to poop in it! Covers cost a fortune, and mothers who use the old fashioned pre-folds with pins and vinyl pants are looked down on.
But now there's this elitist "Wahhh! My baby pooped all over my $60 fuzzibunz!" thing going, and I can see that low-income mothers who might want to try cloth would be totally turned off by it.*
Hello everyone. My name is Islandmamma, and I'm an Activism AND a Diaper Forum addict! (((Hi, Islandmamma!)))

I've been following this thread, and I honestly find I'm biting my tongue and nodding my head on both sides of this issue. I agree 100% with Barbara that cloth should be made an OPTION. I also agree 100% that disposables should as well.

To call mothers who buy expensive diapers "elitist" is truly bad form, IMO. I CD exclusively now-- but it took months of finding the right system (and using disposables) to get there. I ALSO buy Work-at-home-mother made diapers, and you are all right, they tend to be more expensive. But here's the way I see it:

I only own one very expensive wool cover, and yep







, I paid $55 for it...here's why. It was made by a mother working at home to support her family, out of an organic wool grown locally, and shipped directly to me. No middle man, no sweatshops in China, no funky plastic stuff shipped in from Malaysia-- it all happened locally, and my money went to support that mother and family directly. I supported business practices that were honest, fair, and yes, patriotic-- it kept a job here in the US. I don't call that elitism, I call that conscious consumerism.

I stay out of Walmart and baby Gap and the like, and I buy more from business practices I want to support. Does that make anyone a bad person if they are a Walmart-shopping, disposables using mother? Hell no! I just think it's important that we are informed consumers and look at the real cost of things, beyond the dollar value on the shelf.

I admire Barbara for her passion in wanting to make cloth an option, and I admire some other women on this board for tempering passion with some other elements of reality.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I was raiding thrift stores and second hand stores for cloth diapers before DS was born. Boy am I glad I did.

DP ranted today "quit taking off your







diaper kid! We can't afford you going through 20 of them in a day!"

"We have cloth you know."

"Cloth. That's a good idea." He was glaring at DS at that point. He continued to rant about how DS had just gone "a little bit" in his diaper and should therefore have not taken it off because it was a waste and how much the diapers cost. DS was otherwise uninpressed.







::LOL

So wracked my brain to remember where I put them (2-3 locations?) and told him. DP grunted. Tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'll be able to convince him to either buy some velcro for fasteners or diaper pins. These are a "form fitted" diaper - at least most of them are - and we only have about 20. Maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to convince him to use a diaper service once Bun is born... Depends on what style they use I guess.:LOL


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Hey, why not just send them to an EC class and then they can be free of all of it!

I really think we need to remember the privilege many of us have, and how it taints our views. We can not apply our principles to the rest of the society in its current condition. I wouldn't touch eggs or dairy that aren't free range but I'm not going to picket WIC for giving out free eggs and dairy- you know?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I was going to say, "how about EC?" with this smilie:LOL , but I was afraid that would offend people.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Well see, you are just nicer than me :LOL


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

now see? That is a valid choice. Why isn't that choice offered too?

Probably because a requirement of welfare is that the mother works... I guess? A daycare might not be to into EC :LOL


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Free range vs. caged hen eggs are apples and oranges compared to cloth or diposable diapers. I'd more compare a hankie vs. a box of kleenex.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I prefer using a box of klenex to a hankie because when my allergies act up, I go through one or two boxes in a day easily. I only have three hankies and after the third blow I have to wash them.

But for crying or anything else that doesn't involve snot... give me a hanky.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

oh yes, the analogy is certainly flawed.. it was principle. And which is a bigger issue depends who you ask.

It was a principle based on any individual priorities being shadowed by privilege... I never meant to imply they are equal in destroying our environment. Choice is privilege...


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

The OP was interested in offering cloth as a choice. In the past disposables were for the privileged because of the cost of purchasing and disposing of them. Now throwing things away is cheap! Re-using them is called privileged! Our society has gone crazy.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Of course our society has gone nuts. Families are suffering because they can't get adequate housing, nutrition, etc so they do whatever they can to just get by. And if that means using sposies instead of cloth because they don't have the ability (physical/mental/whatever) to wash dipes, they shouldn't be forced to do it.

But 75$ for a second hand dipe? that's disgusting. That's a bra for me! Or two months of sposies for DS. Or food for a week...


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*But 75$ for a second hand dipe? that's disgusting.*









C'mon now. What an incredibly judgemental, harsh thing to say.

We each make our choices. Being empowered in making the choice is what matters.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I was just showing what 75$ (in my money) would buy me. Instead of one "designer" cloth, I'd get a week of food, or any number of other things...

They have every right to buy whatever they want.. that doesn't mean I have to measure up to their standards!


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

my issue is this

monnie you make a great point, but to be on welfare a mother is forced to work

many people on welfare have no chance for transportation, no extra income, no extra time. It's time that is a privilege in our society.

Many working poor are so freaking over extended that cloth is out of the question. Perhaps voting for those who support the working poor is the first step in helping children and the environment.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I like the idea of adding cloth as an option. After all, there ARE more families in this toilet-bowl of an economy that may very well own their own homes, have washer/dryer in home, ect. but find it hard to make ends meet.

However, when one starts a post with the provocative "Children aren't disposable, why should their diapers be", well...why is it any surprise that people react to a tone of animosity towards disposable users?

I will admit, my first response to a skim of the post was a big 'eff off' because I can tell you that in my house disposables ARE NOT AS EASY as cloth. Cheaper, yes. Better, yes (in the case of my daughter anyway). But easy as? No frikkin' way.

And I know first hand that the cheaper way isn't always possible for families without a lot of resources (buying a whole chicken is more economical, but what if your electricity/gas is off and you don't have a pot big enough?)

I like the idea of a CHOICE. And after I read the OP several times, I got that. But frankly the subject and the commentary after the letter seemed like the poster had some animosity towards disposable diaper users.

And one needs to be very careful about slinging around terms like "It's as easy as". Because for many people it's not. THis makes me cringe for all the terribly arrogant things I said regarding 'grey area' AP stuff like cloth diapers, before I had a reality check hit me like a ton of bricks. So maybe that's why I react in irritation. Who knows, maybe that's why others have responded in a similar fashion.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pie_
*Perhaps voting for those who support the working poor is the first step in helping children and the environment.*








Great point.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I vote for paying poor people to stay home and raise their children. I think cloth diapering could really work out then! Or EC. If I could stay home full-time, I probably wouldn't need disposables. As it is now, I can't expect dh to use them during the times I'm not home.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Greaseball, that would not be a bad idea. It would be cheaper in the long run than a crazy system of having moms work for low pay and then paying someone else to raise their kids.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Unfortunately, the poor aren't given a true "choice." For them its often a damned if they do and damned if they don't. And if they dare ask for a handout from their worker, the worker acts like they are god and denies them the help they need....


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## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

I think most everyone here as made some great points regarding the options available and the associated problems for all the options.

As an update, they actually ran my letter in the paper, but changed the title to read "Children aren't born into a disposable world" which is, indeed, a less provacative title.

I got mostly positive responses via e-mail, althought one guy had the gall to say that diapers are made from renewable resources and can be recycled. I reminded him about the gel in most sposies and the fact that we can't even get our city to recycle all the available plastic, how would we ever get a sposie recycling program here? :rollseyes:

I just want to say that I'm sorry if I got a little peevish - I was hurrying around, trying to leave town for a work meeting and have been w/o Internet access since I made my last post. I'm glad my original intent for the post was seen, and appreciated. And I do appreciate everyone's point of view on the issue.








&


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Hey awesome! I think your idea is a great one... I'd love to see more cloth users.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I can't expect dh to use them during the times I'm not home.*
And why not?







Does he have some Y-linked genetic mutation that makes him incapable of changing a diaper? You need to beat some sense into that man.

My DH proudly CD's and.....he even does the diaper laundry!!









PS - I'm all for supporting poor mamas to stay at home with their babies. it would be cheaper than subsidized daycares, I'm sure.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Piglet, my dh changes cloth, too- and washes them. He never had a problem with it. I don't see why men can't do cloth. It's not a gender issue.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yes, I think dh was born without that part of his brain. He doesn't like disposable anything, but he makes an exception for diapers. He says he just wants to throw it out and be done with it.

But when we were letting dd have "naked time" outside and she pooped, I was saying "Just get it with the hose!" and dh was the one who actually washed and sterilized the ground!

With dd, who I only cd'd every once in a while, he was so uptight about the whole thing, insisting that I wasn't getting the diapers clean enough, saying it was gross to rinse them in the sink, etc. that I'm not sure I want to do any cding at all with the new one unless he isn't home.









Disposables are not recyclable; what was that guy thinking?! I'd hate to be the one who has to sort his recycling! Some people also say that using a diaper service is just as damaging to the environment because of the trucks used to deliver the diapers and the chemicals used to sanitize them. Any truth to that?


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

Disposables are not recyclable; what was that guy thinking
He was probably remembering a totally bogus ad campaign that Procter & Gamble put out in the early nineties that claimed that disposable diapers could be composted. For a brief period--1991-1993, interest in cloth dipes surged. Some hospitals started using cloth in their nurseries, I can remember seeing _television_ ads expounding the ease and convenience of cloth diapers.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my crack about super expensive diapers. My point was that if someone comes straight from the _Tightwad Gazette_ to a diaper discussion board or a bidding war over an ebay diaper, she'd probably be pretty turned off.

Also, I'm sure expensive dipes sold on ebay are new and not secondhand. Ebay is a major vehicle for WAHMs who sell new products that they've made by hand.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

It's funny- because of that P&G ad campaign- some people still think disposable diapers can be recycled and are being recycled.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What about those advertised in Mothering, like Nature Boy & Girl? Are they biodegradeable?

I read an old Mothering article about a guy who used some kind of moss instead of diapers. He just stuffed the moss into a cover.


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## Penguintrax (Jul 12, 2003)

Google Search Results


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

It is scary- one article said 98 percent of households use disposable diapers and it takes 500 years to decompose one. California is running out of landfill space- there is also the tremendous resources needed to make a diaper and then throw it in the trash.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

500 years is a lot better than never!

There is a version of sposies that do compost, but the amount is prohibitive. Using cloth would be cheaper. And I think it takes an incinerator or something similar to speed the process.

moot point. Sposies pretty much aren't. I'd like to see them be en mass, but its just far easier to toss and forget.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Forgive me, I haven't read every post in this thread, so this may be repetitive, but....

_Mothering_ ran an article not too long ago that told about a community that implemented a free diaper service because the cost of washing and transporting the CD's was less than the cost of dealing with 'sposie trash. Wouldn't it be interesting to see that idea tried out in an area where such a diaper service would not only save the city money but also help moms on a tight budget?

I washed my CD's in the tub last night b/c dh wasn't home and ds was asleep and I couldn't go down to the laundromant in the basement...it was no fun at all. If I had to do that every time I'd use 'sposies.

The thing about 'sposies is that practically _everyone_ uses them --all--the--time. I mean, yes, they have their place. They're great for vacation, or if you have to run errands and know you won't be able to change your baby for 3 hours. If you don't have a washer/dryer, or whatever, then exclusive 'sposy-ing is a good option. But why can't the average, fiancially comfortable family use a basic set of durable, inexpensive, white CD's when home and ALSO have a box of 'sposies on hand for convenience? Why do people assume that you have to just "choose" between CD and 'sposies, and if you choose 'sposies, then you use them every time for as long as your kid's in diapers????


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Because smart women who decide to experiment on their men and see which they'll choose, like me, have found that they generally grab the sposies first.

At least that's what happened to me. Even with both side by side, he grabbed the sposies first... never the cloth.

That was early on when we had easy access to the landlady's machine too.







:

And since I decided if he wanted to buy them, then I'd use them. So he did.

This time, maybe just maybe, we'll do cloth.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Hey- I'm a smart woman, and my dh chose cloth- we had some disposables the first two weeks and he chose the cloth. He carpooled to work as well- using less and saving money are big on our agendas.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

the cost of washing and transporting the CD's was less than the cost of dealing with 'sposie trash.
Yes, I was going to point out that in some areas, (like mine) people must pay according to how much garbage they set out. I know that the money we saved in trash collection--(it was $1 per large trash bag back when my kids were in diapers, now it's $2.20 _per large bag_) paid for the laundry soap and probably some of the water necessary to launder our diapers.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"I can go to hellmart or target and spend about $8.00 on a pack of diapers for at least a week, maybe 2 weeks or I can buy 1 cloth diaper for $8-15 dollars."

You can also get the cheapo Gerber cloth diapers, which are what we bought. I think I spent about $30 for a week's worth of diapers and covers.


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)




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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I just scored on baby clothes today. One of the local churches had a "fill the bag" for 2$ and I got there when they changed it to "half price on everything."

and lo and behold, in one of the boxes... a variant on cloths! Not really form fitted or anything like that, but something I could probably use. I don't know how many I got or if they'll fit DS, but they are at least a place to start. And I think they'll fit inside one of my form fitted cloths although the lady at the cash pointed at her son and said they were last used on him...

I also packed two bags full of stuff for both DS and for bun whether or not bun is a girl (including a couple of girly dresses). I'm going to wash it all tomorrow, drag out the box and bag of baby clothes I have stocked away and do a sort using the vaccuumm (i can never spell that word) and clear bags and store everything in 0-6, 6-12, 12-18, all the urps clothes and dig out all my cloth diapers. I'm going to need at least 50 at the bare minimum for when bun arrives, because, knowing my luck, DS still won't be potty trained. :rollseyes

After all, if DP is finally willing to do cloth on DS, I can at least find them so we can use them!

Not bad haul for 2$!


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Wohoo that is a great deal. I want to go thrift shopping later this week and see if I come across any.

This weekend I finally said forget it and bought some off ebay when dh wasn't home. He kept saying I couldn't buy them but he was buying all kinds of crap without asking me first and he spends way more money!


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