# Sex Before Marraige... Mamabug told me to repost here....



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Mamabug said to repost here, I thought I would give everyone the chance to post on this. Seeing as it was TAO to start which not everyone can see. Mamabug said to repost it here.

Ok, now, I ask you to step out of yourself and not look at this through ONLY the eyes of a parent, but as someone who makes choices for themselves too.

Teens today start experiamenting with sex fairly early. In fact to say 15 would probably be later than the truth.

So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision? Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'. (you can put your own explanations here, please feel free to)

Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical. (you can also put your explanations here, please feel free to)

What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?

Please give as much detail as possible. I'd like to hear from both sides.

thanks.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Ok, now, I ask you to step out of yourself and not look at this through ONLY the eyes of a parent, but as someone who makes choices for themselves too.

Okay









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Teens today start experiamenting with sex fairly early. In fact to say 15 would probably be later than the truth.

Sad but true. I have younger siblings that are currenlt teens and waaay more promiscuous than I was.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex?

No!!!!!!!
I have had way more partners than my Dh and I wish he had brought a bit more experience into the relationship. Ah well, he knows a lot more about other grown=up things, like home ownership and the stock market







.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Would you try to 'help' them make that decision?
Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'. (you can put your own explanations here, please feel free to)

Seeing as we are atheists, I don't feel that sex outside of marriage is a big deal. I really don't think virginity is a "gift" as much as a state of mind. They may never choose (or be legally allowed) to marry and that is their choice. Sex, however is a biological drive that, at some point, needs to be fullfilled by most people.

Which leads to....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical. (you can also put your explanations here, please feel free to)

We already talk about sex as a choice that is best made by people who are grown enough to handle the potential repercussions.
I feel like I had sex to early (16) I would have liked it to be 18 or so, but i was in looooove and had been dating my boyfriend for a high-school eternity (9 months.) I was on the pill to "regulate my periods" as far as my fundamentalist g-parents knew. I _would not_ reccomend that particular BC method for a teen girl.
I will leave the door open and try to be approachable about fertility control. I will stress the importance of having a partner that RESPECTS you and having enough self-respect to say no to everyone else.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?

Well, that is a great thing about homeschooling, they can avoid the peer-pressure and hallways packed with hormones, for the most part. I am assuming that this will mean that my children start developing interest, not because "everyone else is doing it" but because they have formed a real bond with another human being.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Please give as much detail as possible. I'd like to hear from both sides.

Anymore questions? We just entered the double digits`round here, so these things may start to come up in conversation a bit more.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We do not really encourage waiting for marriage. If they do that's fine, but it's certainly not seen as proper or necessary in our family. There is no issue at all if one or both of them has relationships with people of the same gender. (Ds has indicated that he is straight, and Dd leans bisexual at this point in her life.)

We focus on personal safety, making your own decisions, surrounding yourself with good trustworthy people, understanding birth control options, etc. They know they can come to me about anything at all. I have shared my views on sex with them, and many of my personal experiences (I was very young when I had them, and it was not easy.) I share my personal feelings regarding casual sex, and why it's not my thing. I share that they deserve to be respected and safe.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I can't really place a value on virginity, myself, and don't see it as a "gift" to anyone.

My understanding is that virginity-before-the-wedding-night was valued primarily because it ensured that a girl wouldn't already be pregnant with another man's kid when an old dude had paid her father handsomely to marry her and own her fertility.

I think that background gives rise to our cultural ideas about how girls only have sex to seek "approval" or "love in the wrong places" and definitely shapes our vocabulary about how premarital sex "devalues" a woman.

Seems to me like anything with a foundation that flawed isn't going to improve no matter how much flowery rhetoric you surround it with. I don't think any amount of sex "devalues" anyone.

I plan to tell my kids about birth control options, and especially about STD transmission. When I was a kid, not much was said about sex aside from, "you don't wanna get pregnant" when that's really NOT the worst thing that can come of unprotected sex.

One thing I want to emphasize that you CAN say "no," even if you've already had sex with a person once or a dozen or a hundred times... nobody is obligated to have sex if they don't feel like it. And "I don't feel like it" _is_ a perfectly acceptable reason.

I remember, at 18, feeling like I was "supposed to" keep having sex with my "boyfriend" after a single episode of totally mediocre sex, in spite of the fact that I didn't like him much at all and that he was really lousy in the sack.









I kept wondering how to be rid of the schmuck, all the while we were GIO.







If I knew then what I know now...

Really, the only sexual episodes I regret are those few that I felt "obligated" to do.

And I wouldn't mind in the slightest if either of my kids were attracted to members of the same sex, though I do wonder whether I'd be astute enough to realize it without needing to be bludgeoned over the head with that information.


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## AprilDaisy (Jul 20, 2005)

I found out a few days ago that the elementary school here will be teaching some form of (basic?) sex education in my daughter's 6th grade class this coming year. This has prompted me to consider talking with them in detail about such things before someone else does...which I don't aprove of.

As far as sex before marriage specficially, I don't have a problem with that. Me and my hubby did it and if they wanted to, we'd definitely encourage care, sensibility, etc...








Blessings,
April
Intuitive Medium


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## Momof3inMI (Feb 28, 2006)

Sex before marriage... Well, I can't tell my kiddos to wait...I've been with DP for many years and we have still have not gotten "married". The thought of a piece of paper from the goverment telling us were "legal" kinda bites my a$$. (but that's another topic, sorry)
My dd1 just turned 12, we have had sex talks. I do tell her pg is NOT the only thing you have to worry about. There are many STDs out there that don't show up for years. (then you wonder where/who you got it from).
My hope for my children is they make smart safe choices. I also want to make them feel thay can come to me or their father and ask anything they need.


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## Free Spirited Mom (May 10, 2006)

I usually lurk but this is a very relevant topic. As a mom of two girls 18 and 15, i've been through this already. I've discussed how sex can be a wonderful experience when shared with a loving committed partner. I neither encouraged or discouraged my girls from having sex, just that i was there to guide them and support them as they needed it. My oldest has been active for quite a while and my youngest for a year now, however both girls are still with their first boyfriends and both have very healthy emotional and physical relationships. Although if i had my wishes, i'd have wanted my girls to wait till they were a bit older, but i think all teens mature at different points, and I have been supportive of their choices. Both of my girls are happy, healthy and well adjusted young women and both have been on birth control since the beginning. I think sex is a normal part of growing up and I never wanted my girls to think there was a stigma attached to it or that they had to wait until they had a legal document. So i just wanted to share my opinion, and by the way, both girls do sleep over at their bf's houses or the bf's will sleep here on occasion, and we all respect each others privacy. That's my input and I'll go back to lurking lol.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AprilDaisy*
I found out a few days ago that the elementary school here will be teaching some form of (basic?) sex education in my daughter's 6th grade class this coming year.

Side note...there's no telling how basic it will be. DS1 just had his school sex-ed this year (7th grade). It included a childbirth video.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

What unschoolinma said except we don't have a son and dd hasn't ID herself. But yeah on no need to wait for marriage and emphasis on no doing anything you don't want to do. Just like in other areas of her life.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Teens today start experiamenting with sex fairly early. In fact to say 15 would probably be later than the truth.

Not just today. It's been happening for a while, LOL. I attest to it happening 20years ago









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision? Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'. (you can put your own explanations here, please feel free to)

No, because I do not believe that.

Especialy the part "giving themselves and devaluating themselves". I believe that sex is a two way street - both give and both take. And I do not believe that just because somebody does not have intact hymen (which, BTW, many girls/woman don't have without ever having sex) devaluates them in any shape or form

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical. (you can also put your explanations here, please feel free to)

Yes. You covered all I could think about in this choice







, except I not only "would", but already "have" once









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?

Nothing other than providing information and advice if asked for. Kinda the same things I would do when they start to show interest in anything else - math, sports, etc.,

Interst in opposite (or the same) sex is natural, normal, expected, not scary, not shameful thing. I welcome that as yet another step in human development that I am priviledged to observe and support.

As to the "WHY" portion I don't really know how to answer it, honestly... WHY would I do anything otherwise?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Free Spirited Mom*
I usually lurk but this is a very relevant topic. As a mom of two girls 18 and 15, i've been through this already. I've discussed how sex can be a wonderful experience when shared with a loving committed partner. I neither encouraged or discouraged my girls from having sex, just that i was there to guide them and support them as they needed it. My oldest has been active for quite a while and my youngest for a year now, however both girls are still with their first boyfriends and both have very healthy emotional and physical relationships. Although if i had my wishes, i'd have wanted my girls to wait till they were a bit older, but i think all teens mature at different points, and I have been supportive of their choices. Both of my girls are happy, healthy and well adjusted young women and both have been on birth control since the beginning. I think sex is a normal part of growing up and I never wanted my girls to think there was a stigma attached to it or that they had to wait until they had a legal document. So i just wanted to share my opinion, and by the way, both girls do sleep over at their bf's houses or the bf's will sleep here on occasion, and we all respect each others privacy. That's my input and I'll go back to lurking lol.

Hey, don't go back to lurking! I need more posters whom I agree with


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## AprilDaisy (Jul 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Side note...there's no telling how basic it will be. DS1 just had his school sex-ed this year (7th grade). It included a childbirth video.

I realize this...which is why I'm going to have the talk with the kids... Cause, now...you never know what others feel the need to tell your children...


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

*So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision? Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'. (you can put your own explanations here, please feel free to)*

No. Marriage, to me, is the coming together of two people who are adults, who have grown into their own skins and so, knowing themselves totally are able to give of themselves to others. For me,a big part of the process of knowing myself and growing into my own skin was experimenting sexually.
There is a difference between having sex before marriage and having sex with "whoever comes by" though- I don't see any need for such black and white terms.
It's not my decision to make- I'm trusting that I will have raised three great, loving children who can set their own value on marriage, on their virginity, on themselves and not be dictated to by someone else: not even me. I want my kids to be true to themselves first and foremost.

*Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical. (you can also put your explanations here, please feel free to)*

Yep, pretty much, except that "no means no" isn't all that education bit. No means no is a pretty fundamental tenet nowadays.
My kids come to family planning appointments with me- though I'm starting to let them off now that they are 100% confident that you can walk in and ask for condoms and they'll give them to you, even if you're underage, even if you're a bloke, even if...you get the picture.

*What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?*

Sit down, have a cup of tea, cross my fingers and buy a large box of tissues. First love hurts, ime. Then be around to pick up the pieces.


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

IMO and just IMO i dont think the school should be teaching sex ed....i know there are pros and cons for both sides but...i sure as heck dont want my 6th grader watching child birth with his buddies then going to the playground... not to mention who really knows what the 'teacher' is teaching and how much of that is her/his beliefs..

i went to PS for 5-12th grade had 'sex ed' in 5th and 10th grade... didnt learn much that was helpful or correct...

when and IF my kids ever go to school they will be sitting out that class..
the more and more i think about it... if my kids ever go to public school.. it would be a Catholic school for a number of reasons... this topic being a MAIN one...

sex is NOT ok... intercourse/anal/oral... none is OK... there are so many other things to focus on during the teen years.. why add to the drama?

as i posted on a different message... yes we are very open with sexuality in the home... being nekkid is no big deal... however being very close friends with someone and beign a sex parter are totally different...

just my opinion...


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## Dawn38 (May 14, 2006)

Quote:

I found out a few days ago that the elementary school here will be teaching some form of (basic?) sex education in my daughter's 6th grade class this coming year. This has prompted me to consider talking with them in detail about such things before someone else does...which I don't aprove of.

At our dc's elementary school, they teach sex ed in the 5th grade.







:


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1growingsprout*

when and IF my kids ever go to school they will be sitting out that class..
the more and more i think about it... if my kids ever go to public school.. it would be a Catholic school for a number of reasons... this topic being a MAIN one...


My older kids both attend Catholic school, and dd had "family life" class in 5th grade. It was definitely sex ed, with a lot more info than I had been ready for! It did open up good conversation, though.


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## momfirst (Apr 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AprilDaisy*
I found out a few days ago that the elementary school here will be teaching some form of (basic?) sex education in my daughter's 6th grade class this coming year. This has prompted me to consider talking with them in detail about such things before someone else does...which I don't aprove of.

Our school district has an 'information' night for parents so you can see exactly what they will be showing/teaching your child. The parents also have the right to have their child skip that portion of the curriculum and do other studies instead.

My SIL took her kids out of school because she felt that the kids would learn "other" stuff that the parents don't approve of. I think it's OK for kids to hear another point of view, as long as the parents are also conveying their thoughts about this as well. My DD has had classes that taught things that totally went against my beliefs...it didn't make her turn against what she has always been taught.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Not just today. It's been happening for a while, LOL. I attest to it happening 20years ago









My mom talks about it happening when she was in high school...she graduated in 1961.

Every generation seems to think it invented sex. Just because things are way more out in the open these days doesn't mean things have changed that much. More teen pregnancies...could be. Of course, mom has mentioned that it was _very_ common for girls in the 50s to "only" do oral, so they'd still be virgins. They were defnitely experimenting already, though...


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

<<<<So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision?>>>>

Sure I would encourge her to wait until marriage. I do already. The way I reason with her is she has big dreams, a future she has mapped out for herself. She wants to be a doctor, leaning towads neonatal and has done enough research to know she is going to be in school for a long, long, long, long time. To even get close to that goal is going to require much energy. She knows, has said, that having a serious relationship with a guy would cause a distraction. As it is now, she has many friends, girls and boys. I would hope that stays the same. There is no way to survive college (lol- and HS) without good friends. In addition, she asked about and learned a great deal about STD. OTOH, my door is open to her asking for any kind of birth control.

The part I would like her to be able to handle is how to say no but still have a little fun. Yes, that would be hard but I do know people who get around the bases but don't touch homeplate, if you get my drift. That might be asking a lot of a teenager. I just want her to know that she can state her boundries and she doesn't have to have a hands off policy. Personally, I wish someone had told me how fun it can be not to have sex. It takes will and it takes trust in the other person. To me, it seems that there is an all or nothing attitude. If maybe more teenagers knew there was a middle ground, maybe we wouldn't have the high rates of young teens having sex. And there's always auto-pilot


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AprilDaisy*
I realize this...which is why I'm going to have the talk with the kids... Cause, now...you never know what others feel the need to tell your children...


I would check what exactly they will be told and on a way to opt out if you are not comfortable with what they will be doing.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm going to encourage my children to wait until marriage before they have sex; I believe it's the best way. We are Christians the Bible teaches us that fornication is wrong, and that is part of our belief system. However, if despite what I teach them they decide to have sex anyway, I will be open and honest with them and non-judgmental. I will provide them will full sex-education, including condoms, birth control, ext. I DO NOT support abstinence only education. If my girls want birth control, that's fine too. I want them to understand why I believe that I do, and that I would like them to believe that too, but I don't believe in making that choice for them. In the end, it's their body, not mine. Although I may not agree with their choice to have sex before marriage, I am still their mother and will always "have their back" so to say. I want them to know that they can always come to me with questions about sex and I will answer them openly and honestly, and accuratly.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

*would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex?*

I would encourage my children to wait until they felt it was absolutely the right moment for them.

*Would you try to 'help' them make that decision?*

If I was asked by my child for advice absolutely! I on the other hand would not push my beliefs or thoughts onto my child (pushing my child away in reality).

*Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin.*

I am not certain that I want my children to have only one sexual partner in their life, nor will I pressure that upon them.

*How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'.*

Absolutely! But in my eyes, this does not mean only one person for their entire life.

*would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him?*

huh?

*Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves.
How 'no means no' and all that education bit.*

Absolutely again!

*About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical.*
Of course!.. I will even speak to my children about masterbation and the importance of using that as a method to the arising (no pun intended) situations.

*What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?*

Definantly hope and pray that until that point I have gained enough trust with my children that they can come to me and speak FREELY about such said topics.


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## DesertFlower (Oct 20, 2004)

Chip and I got married after I got pregnant. I think I would teach my daughter (if I ever have one) to respect her body and soul, and about contraception, rathwer than tel her she sould wait untill shes married. I feel that what matters is self-respect and happiness more that being married.


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## Amirah (Jul 21, 2006)

For my part, I just want it to be her decision. I don't want her to do it because everybody else her age at school do it. If now they're doing it at eleven from an article I read...in 10 years when will they start doing it??? The problem is I know I won't always be there for my child. When she will be at school I won't be there to tell her if she's doing the right thing or not. I can educate her and make her develop a strong character but then she'll only do what she wants...but at least she'll do what she wants and not what someone else wants her to do...if she wants to have sex, she can but if someone tries to convince her to do it, she'll be able to decide if she wants or not...I don't know if you get what I mean...you can raise your child well but still everybody knows how much our society is more and more affected by trends and that the "know who you are and be yourself" is slowly giving way to "be like the popular ones and do like them" and peer pressure at school is my worse enemy right now cause I don't know what they'll do to my daughter...just hope she doesn't catch a disease or get pregnant...she's only 2 1/2 years and I'm already worried sick about that...I must be crazy!


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## LuvMyLittles (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545*
I'm going to encourage my children to wait until marriage before they have sex; I believe it's the best way. We are Christians the Bible teaches us that fornication is wrong, and that is part of our belief system. However, if despite what I teach them they decide to have sex anyway, I will be open and honest with them and non-judgmental. I will provide them will full sex-education, including condoms, birth control, ext. I DO NOT support abstinence only education. If my girls want birth control, that's fine too. I want them to understand why I believe that I do, and that I would like them to believe that too, but I don't believe in making that choice for them. In the end, it's their body, not mine. Although I may not agree with their choice to have sex before marriage, I am still their mother and will always "have their back" so to say. I want them to know that they can always come to me with questions about sex and I will answer them openly and honestly, and accuratly.

Everything that she said. I know my oldest (16) has made out with her bf, but I'm also pretty sure that they haven't had sex even though they have been going out for over a year. Right now her world revolves around him WAY too much. Eventually, they will break up and she will be totally devestated. How much worse would that be if they were having sex? So part of not having sex is waiting until the emotional side effects are not as damaging. I think that having a few relationships that aren't based on sex before you throw it into the mix is much healthier and helps a person determine what their emotional bounderies are. That said, I have also talked to dd about the fact that birth control or other help she might need is available.
I do hope my kids (of both genders) wait. I am however much more concerned that they not get involved in any sexual relationship where they are feeling abused or disrespected. Two people that have never had sex with any others are much more likely to simply enjoy eachother and not "miss" what they used to get somewhere else. There was a study once that actually showed that women who had only one sexual partner were on average more satisfied sexually than women who had multiple partners and were now married. That is another factor. When my kids have sex, I want it to be great sex for them. A commited partner is much more likely to be sensitive and grow with their partner as a sexual being. I also think God knows all about what happens to us physically and emotionally when we have sex outside marriage and wants us all to be having great sex. Thus the "rule." It's more of a "don't touch the hot stove" rule unless your going around hurting others. At least that's how I have presented it to my kids. There is good sex, bad sex, great sex and very best sex. You get to pick and here is how I think you end up with each one. But as a parent I also reserve the right to create an evironment where I think the best is most likely to happen.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I have no issues with sex before marriage. I'm not married, and don't plan on marrying dp, though we are momogamous and committed for the longterm.

I will encourage ds (and any future dc's) to wait to have sex with someone he cares about. A loving, committed relationship. Not necessarily THE person, just someone who is important to him at the time. But I on't insist on it.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I was a virgin on my wedding day. It was drilled into me from the time that I was very young that sex before marriage was taboo. I have no regrets. That said, *I do not believe waiting until marriage to have sex for the first time is a wise thing to do* and I have not communicated such an expectation to my now-19 yo and I will not to my younger children.

Sex is an integral part of a committed relationship between adult partners and therefore, it is critical that two people know_, really know_, that they are compatible sexually before they make what should be a lifelong commitment.

My now 19 yo dd approached me at 15 yo and asked for birth control. I explained to her my view that sex is a serious matter and should only be a part of a relationship where she feels confident she is loved and cared for and is with a trusted partner. She assured me that was the case. I provided birth control for her. She is now 19 and is no longer in that relationship, but it went on monogamously (as best I can tell) for 3.5 years. I feel comfortable with how I handled it.

With my currently 3 yo dd and 20 mo dd, I intend to allow them to determine when they are ready for that step. I absolutely will not tell them to wait until marriage to have sex for the first time. However, if they choose it, I will be proud and supportive. If they don't, and have sex before marriage, I will be proud and supportive.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I find myself agreeing (as usual) 1000 % with unschoolnma! In our household we most certainly do not encourage or condone waiting until marriage for sex. First of all, we don't feel that it is at all realistic. Second, we also don't feel that it is proper to do. We do encourage personal choice, knowledge of how to protect yourself, and how to say "no" if and when you want to say "no." But we strongly reject and frown on the notion of waiting until marriage. Obviously, we want it to be our kids' choice on what to do, as we would never force our opinion on them. But we do certainly hope they choose to have sex before marriage, and not to wait until after.


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## kimiij (Jun 18, 2006)

Seems like you've got a lot of more liberal answers.

I will definitley encourage both my boys and my girls to wait until marriage. I think that sex is biological, emotional, and spiritual. They will have to make their own decisions but for their biological, emotional, and spiritual health, I will guide them towards what I think is optimal. I do not think that promiscuity (no matter how "safe") is smart and I don't wish that on my children or on anyone else's.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Dh and I were both virgins on our wedding night and we try to follow Jesus message of love in the bible. We will raise our dd and any others with the belief that sex is for marriage. However, if (God forbid) she chose otherwise, I would not pressure her to be married or treat her with any less love. We will be very open about sex because I don't want her learning about it from others. Um... what other questions were there? Birth control - I would not provide her with that. It's ez enough to get condoms and I don't believe chemical bc is healthy at all.

To the other mom who believes sex is for marriage as well, just my humble opinion, but if you let your dd know that you will have her back in premarital sex I think she will think you are not really all that much for waiting. As you and I know it's not ez at all to wait and it's wonderful to have support.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Well, I'm pregnant with my first, but I'm already thinking about the teenage years, lol!

I'm definitely planning on being open with my daughter and letting her make her own decisions. I plan on being supportive and helpful. My mother merely paid lip service to "you can talk to me about anything". She said it, but I could tell from her actions that it was not true. She was very rarely supportive of my goals, or the goals of my siblings. She was definitely the type of parent that made you want to rebel, not only to assert your independence, but to prove her wrong. (She's the type who has a hard time admitting she's wrong, and this was a huge factor in some of the decisions I made very early on.) I was the type of child so many parents fear. I was deceptive. I hid my problems very well. I had so much going on inside that I never truly felt I could share with my parents, because, whether they wanted to be or not, they were very judgemental. I ended up getting into an abusive relationship at only 12 years of age, with someone I barely knew. The scars from that relationship carried on throughout my teenage years. If I would have had real support, none of it ever would have happened. It sounds terrible, but I still sort of blame my parents. I don't want my children to carry any of the baggage I carry. I know terrible things will happen in their lifetime, but I want to be the one they go to to help them heal. Now that I'm getting an outside look at things (my younger sister is 15, and still living with my mom.) I can definitely see where the damage was done. My mother now talks to me as an adult, but to my sister as a child. Every decision she makes is limited, even tiny things like the number of glasses of milk she can have in a day, or the style of shoes she wears. My "healing" was sex, my brother's was attention (for doing things that could get him hurt), my sister's is food. She is not all that heavy now, because my mom is often around to monitor everything she eats, but I know once she is on her own, she'll have a hard time controlling it.

Sorry to get so off topic, I'm just giving a story of someone whose parents were not supportive. No matter what you decide you want for your children, make sure you not only tell them you're there for them, but show them every day, and remember that actions speak louder than words. It really can make all the difference!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Sex is an integral part of a committed relationship between adult partners and therefore, it is critical that two people know_, really know_, that they are compatible sexually before they make what should be a lifelong commitment.


Exactly.

And, we should remember some of our children are gay. I think it is appropriate to use gender neutral pronouns in discussions with kids.

Some kids who hear about no sex before marraige get involved in a "anything but" game where oral sex or anal sex are considered alternatives which may or may not be enough to prevent whatever problems parents are concerned about.

To me telling your child do this or do that is really missing what needs to be a more complex conversation. It isn't the parent's choice what the kid does and it makes more sense to me to instead discuss the implications of a variety of choices and help the teen figure out what is right for them. If you take a firm stance "no sex until the wedding" you may well find you are cut off from further conversations when the kid really needs you because they will have already broken your rule.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
To me telling your child do this or do that is really missing what needs to be a more complex conversation. It isn't the parent's choice what the kid does and it makes more sense to me to instead discuss the implications of a variety of choices and help the teen figure out what is right for them. If you take a firm stance "no sex until the wedding" you may well find you are cut off from further conversations when the kid really needs you because they will have already broken your rule.


I am encouraging my children to wait until they are married. This is a part of our belief system. I am also teaching them about the implications of the various choices they may/may not make. I am not naive enough to think that by telling my child anything they will automatically comply. I do want to make sure they understand why it is so important to wait until marriage, but I will support them if they choose a different path.

I think it is entirely possible to be informative and arm your children with the knowledge they need to know about sex as well as encourage them to wait until marriage.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm not married yet, and have two kids. I've had a variety of sexual partners (of both sexes) since 15, and am technically nonmonogamous now.
I obviously don't believe in waiting until marriage (in fact, I think to do so would be a mistake) and don't regret my sexual history at all. I'll teach my children how to prevent sti's and pregnancy (use a condom during all types of sex, and get tested regularly), the importance of consent, and to be respectful of theirs and others' bodies.
When they start showing signs of budding sexuality, I'll have a little giggle and a cry that my babies are growing up.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

What a great topic. As the stepmom of a 14yo, mother of a 13yo, 10yo, and so on, this subject comes up often.

When I was young, my mother told me NOTHING. Not about sex, or boys, or kissing, or even my cycles. I was scared to death when I began my period at age 10.

I don't believe sex is an unnatural desire...remember, Romeo and Juliet were young teens. Once those hormones kick in, you need to be prepared.

As a side note, we do talk a great deal about bc/pregnancy/vd. The Pill will not protect your daughters from venereal warts or syphilis or even herpes.

Condoms break. IUDs cause breakthrough bleeding and/or uturine rupture.

The "shot" is related to heavy weight gain and massive breakthrough bleeding.

I'm not anti-birthcontrol...I just want to make sure the facts are out there.

My 13yo dd says she's never having babies (or sex) because of her large family.







We'll see. We'll see. At least if she DOES decide to have female/male intercourse, she'll know all her options, including abortion.

love, penelope


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

"...sex is NOT ok... intercourse/anal/oral... none is OK... there are so many other things to focus on during the teen years.. why add to the drama?"

Wow.

The teen years are ALL about drama. Did you remain a virgin until your marriage? Did you never "neck" under the bleachers? Are you seriously saying that sex is unnatural???

Sex is how we got here. We live longer now, and that makes it more complicated for parents who are looking at their kids completing BASIC school at 18. Used to be that by 14 they'd be betrothed or married.

SEx is a natural part of life, and if you believe in God, then you must believe that those hormones start rushing at that age for a reason.

love, penelope


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1growingsprout*
sex is NOT ok... intercourse/anal/oral... none is OK... there are so many other things to focus on during the teen years.. why add to the drama?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
The teen years are ALL about drama. Did you remain a virgin until your marriage? Did you never "neck" under the bleachers? Are you seriously saying that sex is unnatural???

I am not the person who posted the first quote obviously, but I thought I would jump in on this one.

My own personal opinion is the teen years are all about drama as you said, but I do believe that it is much better for kids to wait until marriage. That for us goes back to belief system in our family though.

The questions above......unfortunately I didn't wait for marriage. I have only been with my husband though. I have never had any other parents for any of the above sexual acts except my spouse. I kicked myself for not waiting as it was something I truly wanted to do. My parents had no opinion either way as to waiting or not. The question about necking under the bleachers....not really sure what is being asked, but I never made out with anyone on school grounds. I had one other serious boyfriend and we did "make out" on occasion, but I never really had any interest in sex with him. I don't believe 1growingsprout was implying sex is unnatural. It seems they have very clear views on what they feel is appropriate and not appropriate. I think sex is completely natural and I also believe you can control your sexual urges. I think that a lot of times sex occurs because kids put themselves in the position to allow it to happen. By keeping yourself separated from the opportunity the odds of sex occuring go down dramatically.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
Sex is how we got here. We live longer now, and that makes it more complicated for parents who are looking at their kids completing BASIC school at 18. Used to be that by 14 they'd be betrothed or married.

Yes, sex is how we got here. Yes, we live longer nowadays though I am not sure what the completion of any type of schooling has to do with the decision to maintain your virginity until marriage. As far as past history betrothing/marrying their 14 year olds....well there are lots of things we did in the past that weren't exactly the best idea.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
SEx is a natural part of life, and if you believe in God, then you must believe that those hormones start rushing at that age for a reason.

I do believe in God and I do agree sex is natural part of life. I think that just because I get the urge to do something doesn't make it a good idea to follow through with the urge. My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I am encouraging my children to wait until they are married. This is a part of our belief system. I am also teaching them about the implications of the various choices they may/may not make. I am not naive enough to think that by telling my child anything they will automatically comply. I do want to make sure they understand why it is so important to wait until marriage, but I will support them if they choose a different path.

I think it is entirely possible to be informative and arm your children with the knowledge they need to know about sex as well as encourage them to wait until marriage.

I think we are talking about two different things. To me it sounds like you are saying you don't just say "no sex before the wedding" but instead no sex and here's lots of reasons why it may ruin your life if you do.

What I'm saying is that hopefully sex feels good and sex is fun. If you tell your kids plenty of reasons why it is bad so they better not do it until they are married, you've right there stopped the conversation. When they figure out it is fun, where is your credibility at that point? When they've had sex and they realize that maybe it isn't what they want for the next ten years where is your credibility? When they are thinking about having sex but aren't sure how to do it safely - how are you there to help when you've already told them not to do it?


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*

I do believe in God and I do agree sex is natural part of life. I think that just because I get the urge to do something doesn't make it a good idea to follow through with the urge. My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.

Is it your understanding that in biblical times people were officially or legally married before they had sex? That they waited to have sex until they were in their 20s or 30s? I'd love to see those passages.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
I think we are talking about two different things. To me it sounds like you are saying you don't just say "no sex before the wedding" but instead no sex and here's lots of reasons why it may ruin your life if you do.

What I'm saying is that hopefully sex feels good and sex is fun. If you tell your kids plenty of reasons why it is bad so they better not do it until they are married, you've right there stopped the conversation. When they figure out it is fun, where is your credibility at that point? When they've had sex and they realize that maybe it isn't what they want for the next ten years where is your credibility?


I do not plan on telling my kids sex isn't good or fun. I will encourage them to wait for marriage because there really isn't any good reason I can see not to wait (coupled with our belief system). I also don't plan on telling them all the reasons it may "ruin" their life if they do engage in pre-marital sex. I will inform it does add more drama (for lack of a better word). I wasn't really going for the crediblity award in my choice. My kids will choose their own path and I will support them in whatever that decision is, but I will also encourage them to follow the principles of the bible.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
When they are thinking about having sex but aren't sure how to do it safely - how are you there to help when you've already told them not to do it?

I plan on teaching them about STD's and protection. They will learn how to protect themselves.

I am trying to figure out why it isn't possible to encourage them to wait for marriage and also teaching them about protection and STD's. Do you really believe it has to be one or the other?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
Is it your understanding that in biblical times people were officially or legally married before they had sex? That they waited to have sex until they were in their 20s or 30s? I'd love to see those passages.

As in any time in history, not everyone waited until marriage for sex. There will always be those who decide to have sex outside of marriage.

The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.

If you are truly interested in verses with talk about saving sex until marriage feel free to PM me and I would be happy to share those with you.

I am not aware of any passages that state a specific age you can choose to have sex outside of the confines of marriage, but I would love for you to share the passage with me (you can PM me).


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.

I think what the previous poster was discussing is that, in our society, the gap between puberty and "marriageable" age is much, _much_ longer than it has been at any other point in human history-- both because puberty begins earlier and because "acceptable marriage age" is later.

So, if I were a Victorian teen, I might not begin menstruating till I were 15 or 16 or 17, and I'd be betrothed and married not long after that. Certainly within two or three years of puberty. I would almost certainly be married by the time I was 20.

NOW, it's very unusual for a girl to go past the age of 13 or so for menarche, and yet they are expected to wait to marry until they've completed their schooling, so at LEAST a five-year gap, and probably closer to a decade or fifteen years.

Say I start puberty at 11, and get married at 23; (which is still considered a very young age for marriage in most American communities) that's a twelve-year gap between puberty and the onset of sexual activity.

Never have human beings expected that degree of sexual abstinence in the general population, aside from special religous communities specifically set up to promote celibacy through gender segregation and ascetic practices like fasting, etc.

Is it really reasonable (or desirable!) to expect a decade or two of celibacy during peak sexual maturity, when we have NEVER had that expectation at any point in human history?

I don't think it is. I don't think it's possible, on a large scale, to apply the cultural principles of the Bible to situations in which the entire cultural and biological landscape has changed so fundamentally, and I think that's really at the heart of the "teenage immorality" that has been so decried.

We've just failed to come up with ways to talk about "premarital sex" that respect it for what it is... an expression of sexuality in a culture that refused to accomodate it till it burst out in its own right.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Is it really reasonable (or desirable!) to expect a decade or two of celibacy during peak sexual maturity, when we have NEVER had that expectation at any point in human history?

I don't think it is.

There are other things that are of different expectations in today's society than in the past. Why should keeping sex within the confines of marriage be any different? Just because something is difficult or requires commitment on the part of the person doesn't mean it should be eliminated as possible.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
There are other things that are of different expectations in today's society than in the past. Why should keeping sex within the confines of marriage be any different? Just because something is difficult or requires commitment on the part of the person doesn't mean it should be eliminated as possible.

Sure, anything is _possible_-- a really determined person can do a lot when she puts her mind to it. If that really is an individual's goal, I've got nothing against it.

What I'm talking about is large-scale social expectations and sweeping moral statements like "sex should wait until marriage, because the Bible says so."

I think that sort of attitude really creates an atmosphere where sexual activity before official marriage is considered a "failure" of some sort, and I think that's got a negative impact on our cultural ability to address young-adult sexual activity in a positive, constructive way. Never before have we had such a negative attitude about sexual activity by the young. Even the Victorians had a healthier and more realistic attitude toward it than we do, sometimes.







And they had ways of allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of their communities.

We don't. We tend to either condemn it, or pretend it's not happening, which is just absolutely ridiculous.

And WRT "other things that are of different expectations," I'm interested to know what you are referring to... lots of things are discussed in the Bible that aren't acceptable parts of our cultural landscape now. Slavery comes to mind.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Sure, anything is _possible_-- a really determined person can do a lot when she puts her mind to it. If that really is an individual's goal, I've got nothing against it.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
What I'm talking about is large-scale social expectations and sweeping moral statements like "sex should wait until marriage, because the Bible says so."

This isn't the only reason we will encourage our kids to wait until marriage, though it is a part of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I think that sort of attitude really creates an atmosphere where sexual activity before official marriage is considered a "failure" of some sort, and I think that's got a negative impact on our cultural ability to address young-adult sexual activity in a positive, constructive way.

I think it can be approached in a way that makes it not seem like a "failure" if they choose to not wait. If you are open with them about your reasons and also be open to the possibility they will choose something different for themselves, then your children will know that ultimately they have the final word in their decisions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrrettoes*
Never before have we had such a negative attitude about sexual activity by the young.

I disagree with this statement. I think the society of today is much more accepting of pre-marital sex than in years past. It wasn't that long ago that girls were sent away to have babies out of wedlock (that were often given up for adoption) as to not shame the family. There were also many marriages that were expected to happen due to unexpected pregnancies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Even the Victorians had a healthier and more realistic attitude toward it than we do, sometimes.







And they had ways of allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of their communities.

I don't really have much knowledge of the Victorian era so I will go with what you say on this.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
We don't. We tend to either condemn it, or pretend it's not happening, which is just absolutely ridiculous.

I am guessing this has to do with allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of the communities. Again, I think the idea of pre-marital sex is much more acceptable than it has been in years past. I am sure there are still those who will condemn or pretend it's not happening, but I think society is much more accepting of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightferrettoes*
And WRT "other things that are of different expectations," I'm interested to know what you are referring to... lots of things are discussed in the Bible that aren't acceptable parts of our cultural landscape now. Slavery comes to mind.









I have no idea what WRT is.









I wasn't necessarily talking things of different expectations according to just the bible. I was thinking more along the lines of higher expectations for college when obtaining a job....that kind of higher expectations.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

My baby ate my point-by-point post!

I don't think it's possible to pretend that a couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car are afforded the degree of respect and seriousness that we viewed teenage marriage with in the past.

We might put up with it, but we don't view that relationship as being anything more than the satisfaction of animal lust. Or we call it puppy love. Or we tell them they spend too much time together. Or we just pretend that they aren't having sex.

My grandmother married at 16, not uncommon at that time-- her family of origin gathered to CELEBRATE the onset of her sexual activity. A celebration! Complete with religious endorsement of her blossoming sexuality! She got lovely presents and a chance to dress up.

She wasn't even old enough to lose her virginity at the prom, like we do now.







But nobody would think of condemning her for having sex with her 26-year-old new husband. (and nobody would call him a child molester for marrying her, or say much about the years he spent visiting the local brothel...)









We don't do any of that now for young adults. Our culture gives a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust to young lovers now... of _course_ their relationships tend to disintegrate; can you imagine if you and your husband had no privacy for lovemaking, no social regard for the emotions you feel for each other, no approval from your families?

I remember loving my high school boyfriend as intensely as I love my now-husband, but my family moved completely across the country in spite of my impassioned pleas to not pull us apart.







They were happy that we'd probably break it off after awhile.







And I wasn't old enough to marry him, or to even decide to leave my parents and strike out on my own.

We might "tolerate" the fact that teens have sex, but we sure don't _celebrate_ young love like we used to do. No wonder our "morality" education has been such a spectacular failure!

The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now, when it never used to be. The average age of first marriage has been rising for decades now, while the average age of puberty has been dropping.

and yeah, I think that if you're using the Bible as a template for acceptable or preferable sexual morality, you have to keep in mind the cultural norms surrounding marriage in that ancient culture. To include things like teenage marriage, later puberty, sexually-active betrothals... and even polygamy!

And yes, we have "higher expectations" about education-- and I think that pretending that THAT isn't part of the problem with idealizing virginity at official marriage is an exercise in futility.

ETA: To clarify, I don't believe that it's a bad thing that we expect higher education from our kids, and I don't believe it's a bad thing that we delay the White Wedding till the people involved are in their 20s.

But I do think it's ridiculous to ignore the conflicting and historically-unprecedented pressures that these changes put on people, under the rubric of "premarital sex is bad." How can "premarital sex" be so awful and untraditional and shameful, when "marriage" isn't what it used to be, either?


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.

OK, but I think you have to acknowlege that, in terms of biblical history, not being married by 30 is a _complete_ anomoly.







Especially for a girl!

We legally prohibit people from getting married at the ages that people married in the bible.

So yeah, I think it's a little dishonest to tell your kids that you think the bible has the ideal for sexual morality, when they lack the choice to get married at 14 or 15.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Serial posting to say, gosh, it just now struck me that my old "puppy love drama" with the high school boyfriend happened when I was the same age as my grandma in her wedding pictures. The ones that are cherished family heirlooms now, in the silver frames.

And my parents "lost" all the pics of my boyfriend in our move.

Wow. I just don't know how to process that, exactly.







: Suddenly I'm just really, really angry again, after all these years.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
My baby ate my point-by-point post!









Sorry, I found this funny!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I don't think it's possible to pretend that a couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car are afforded the degree of respect and seriousness that we viewed teenage marriage with in the past.

Honestly, I don't see where a "couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car" should be afforded the degree of respect and seriousness of marriage. I don't think teenage marriage is always a good thing, but it certainly can be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
We might put up with it, but we don't view that relationship as being anything more than the satisfaction of animal lust. Or we call it puppy love. Or we tell them they spend too much time together.

This would be something that would differ from family to family. I don't think it is impossible to fall in love with your future spouse as a teenager. I have several friends who married their high school sweetharts. I do think that teen couples can spend too much time together. It is important to spend time with other friends as well as with your bf/gf.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
My grandmother married at 16-- her family of origin gathered to CELEBRATE the onset of her sexual activity. A celebration!

My grandmother was married at 15. Her family gathered to celebrate her marriage. I don't think they were gathering specifically to celebrate the onset of her sexual activity....for all I know my grandmother may have been sexual active before marriage.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
We don't do that now. Our culture gives a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust to young lovers now... of course their relationships tend to disintegrate; can you imagine if you and your husband had no privacy for lovemaking, no social regard for the emotions you feel for each other, no approval from your families?

I am not sure I have ever experienced a situation where young lovers who were married were given a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust....though maybe you mean they are also seen as being old enough to make it in their marriage.

I am having trouble following this quote, but I will answer according to what I see it as meaning. As far as having no privacy for spouses....you got me there. I have never experienced a situation where a husband and wife had no privacy to make love. As far as the lack of social regards for the emotions....again no experience. I will need a bit more explanation and/or an example to decipher this one. The lack of approval from families could come at any age and at any time. This isn't exclusive to teen marriages.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
We might "tolerate" the fact that teens have sex, but we sure don't _celebrate_ young love like we used to do.

I am not sure where in history we ever really celebrated pre-marital sex. As far as teen marriage that has changed a lot through the years as well in the level of acceptance. The celebration of young love is really up to how the family chooses to address this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
No wonder our "morality" education has been such a spectacular failure!

I am not sure what "morality education" you are referring to. I would say whatever this morality education is though is a guarantee failure due to the huge difference in the morals of each family. There is no way for an educational setting to teach morals to my child if they don't share the morals of my family and the same goes for any other family I would guess.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightferrettoes*
The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now, when it never used to be.

I really don't see where today's society is pushing/encouraging abstinence as the only option. I also don't see society condemning teens for engaging in pre-marital sex. Teenagers being moral or immoral is really up to how the individual person views it. What is moral to you (general moral) may not be the same for the person beside you (again general you). I think today's society is quite a bit more tolerant than in years past. As far as the gap between puberty and marriage I guess that would depend on when the child hit puberty. I think the gap has always existed and has always been a different size depending on the person. I didn't start my period until I was 16 and I got married two weeks before I turned 19. Not that big of a gap.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
and yeah, I think that if you're using the Bible as a template for acceptable or preferable sexual morality, you have to keep in mind the cultural norms surrounding marriage in that ancient culture. To include things like teenage marriage, later puberty, sexually-active betrothals... and polygamy!

I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every point in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
And yes, we have "higher expectations" about education-- and I think that pretending that THAT isn't part of the problem with idealizing virginity at official marriage is an exercise in futility.

I don't follow this one. I was referring to needing a college degree for better jobs nowadays as opposed to say when my dad was looking for work. I am not sure what that has to do with idealizing virginity at official marriage.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Serial posting to say, gosh, it just now struck me that my old "puppy love drama" with the high school boyfriend happened when I was the same age as my grandma in her wedding pictures. The ones that are cherished family heirlooms now, in the silver frames.

And my parents "lost" all the pics of my boyfriend in our move.

Wow. I just don't know how to process that, exactly.







: Suddenly I'm just really, really angry again, after all these years.

Sorry your parents "lost" all the pics of your boyfriend. Maybe, the wedding picture has survived b/c your grandmother held onto it and it was passed to her children after her death??


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Sorry your parents "lost" all the pics of your boyfriend. Maybe, the wedding picture has survived b/c your grandmother held onto it and it was passed to her children after her death??

she ain't dead yet.

Are you implying that I was careless with my cherished photos by entrusting them to my parents and that their loss is my own fault?

hmmmm.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

eightyferrettoes said: *The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now,*








:

We, as a society and as familiies and communities, need to accept "young" love for what it is...love. It can grow and blossom and create beautiful families if we help it to.

In the book "The Babycatcher," the author tells a story of a teen who was pregnant and requesting the author's services as a midwife. The author presumed that the the teen was an unwed mother, but came to find that the teen girl's (woman's?) mother had urged her to marry the (eventual) father of that baby, because flirting and "showing offf" was against their religion.

By the end of the book, you find that the young woman and her husband have become staunch supporters of their religion, and have four children. They are moving to the Middle East (Lebanon, I think), so that she can become a midwife to the women of her faith.

She was Muslim.

If Christians (or any religion) would accept young love for what it is, and celebrate it instead of deriding it, we would be better off.

love, penelope


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

*I thinkk the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every poI thinint in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.*

So you think that if a man rapes a girl, he should just pay her family the equivallent of 50 shceckels (sp) and she 's his wife now?

The Bible has huge inconsistancies and errors as far as our society is concerned.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*

Honestly, I don't see where a "couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car" should be afforded the degree of respect and seriousness of marriage. I don't think teenage marriage is always a good thing, but it certainly can be.

That's just it. Teenagers cannot get married under most circumstances, and they're actively discouraged from seeking marriage till fairly late even if they could. Would you honestly be thrilled if your kids came to you and said they wanted to get married at 14 or 16 or 18? What if your 16-year-old daughter announced her burning desire to marry a man ten or twelve years her senior? Those kinds of things were perfectly acceptable by biblical standards.









Most people, OTOH, would encourage the kids to "at least wait till you're done with high school!" or "wait till you're done with college and you can get a good job to support your family!"

All this waiting-- at some point, something's got to give, for most of us.









All I'm saying is that we consider marriage to be a time of family formation, and, rightly or wrongly, we have chosen to delay the "ideal" onset of family formation till the early-to-mid 20s for girls, and the mid-to-late 20s for boys, for the most part.

And I'm saying that this is a much, much bigger break with the bulk of human history than we are typically willing to acknowlege.

Quote:

I do think that teen couples can spend too much time together. It is important to spend time with other friends as well as with your bf/gf.
Considering again that teenagers are either prohibited or discouraged from marrying, let's put that in the context of a first marriage. Can you imagine telling a pair of newlyweds that they are "spending too much time together?"

Would it be any of your damn business, as long as they were carrying out their daily tasks, that they chose to spend their every other waking moment together? I didn't think so. That'd provoke a major "Can you BELIEVE what my MIL told my DH???" thread if she were an MDC poster. Followed by 5 pages of "oh noes she didn't!" responses.










Quote:

My grandmother was married at 15. Her family gathered to celebrate her marriage. I don't think they were gathering specifically to celebrate the onset of her sexual activity....for all I know my grandmother may have been sexual active before marriage.
Very possible. I address here the onset of "publically acknowleged" sexuality... though it's no mistake that the white dress, symbolizing virginity, is a component of the ceremony. If she WERE sexually active, her community sure didn't know about it or care to comment upon it.









Quote:

I am not sure I have ever experienced a situation where young lovers who were married were given a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust....though maybe you mean they are also seen as being old enough to make it in their marriage.
Yes! Gracious, isn't it just awful that we look at a couple of 18 year olds as if they'll "never make it?" Surely you experienced some of that, even after getting the official piece of paper. Imagine how much worse without the piece of paper! Nobody takes you seriously at all.

Quote:

As far as having no privacy for spouses....you got me there. I have never experienced a situation where a husband and wife had no privacy to make love. As far as the lack of social regards for the emotions....again no experience. I will need a bit more explanation and/or an example to decipher this one. The lack of approval from families could come at any age and at any time. This isn't exclusive to teen marriages.
Well, I'd say it's certainly a big facet. When marriage is, as I said, actively discouraged (and I think some of those reasons are culturally valid) it sets up a definite climate of expectation to fail when they transgress those boundaries.

And when they lack the chutzpah to go ahead and publically disappoint their parents by marrying young, they will still be sexually active, by and large; the culture may not sanction it, but marriage isn't really sanctioned for them, either.

We called it "setting them up for failure" back when I was in the Army-- it means not giving the tools, confidence, or information needed to succeed to a young soldier. It happens in other arenas, too.

And what I mean by "lack of social regard--" a teenage relationship can be broken apart by forces not within the teen's control. Parents can have their teen transferred to another school district, they can force the teenager to move across the country, they can put the teen under what amounts to house arrest; they can, if the age gap is wide enough, press statutory rape charges, etc.

All with the approval of the community at large.

An "adult" relationship under that kind of duress would have a hard time surviving.

Quote:

I am not sure where in history we ever really celebrated pre-marital sex. As far as teen marriage that has changed a lot through the years as well in the level of acceptance. The celebration of young love is really up to how the family chooses to address this.
I AM NOT SAYING WE HAVE EVER CELEBRATED PREMARITAL SEX. Well, okay, the Romans did. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

For the tenth time, I'm talking about the ways in which our failure to celebrate young-adult sexuality at all is, culturally speaking, very prevalent and not helpful to anyone.

We used to have teenage marriage. Now, we have.... ???? a big fat moral grey area.

Quote:

I think the gap has always existed and has always been a different size depending on the person. I didn't start my period until I was 16 and I got married two weeks before I turned 19. Not that big of a gap.
And very unusual. I started puberty at 11, and married at 20. That's 9 years!







: And everyone said I was crazy for marrying so early-- most people I know don't marry till well past 25.

Statistically speaking, that gap is at least three times as big as it used to be. Yipes!

Quote:

I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every point in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.
The bible is a product of a culture, not some unfailing, infallible basis for anything.







Well, all sacred writings are products of cultures, and the further removed our own cultural context from the one that originated the writing, the greater the chances that we'll screw up the interpretation in the process of trying to "apply it."

Quote:

I don't follow this one. I was referring to needing a college degree for better jobs nowadays as opposed to say when my dad was looking for work.
Yes! And so often, a couple _could_ marry at a young age, because they COULD then find decent work to support the new family. Now, it's much, much more difficult to marry, have kids, etc, and then find decent work at the age of 18 or 19 or even 23.

16? Forget about it!

Which is why we typically encourage our kids to not marry and start families till later in life. But we can't do that, and ignore their still-present sexuality, without serious consequences for everyone.


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
OK, but I think you have to acknowlege that, in terms of biblical history, not being married by 30 is a _complete_ anomoly.







Especially for a girl!

We legally prohibit people from getting married at the ages that people married in the bible.

So yeah, I think it's a little dishonest to tell your kids that you think the bible has the ideal for sexual morality, when they lack the choice to get married at 14 or 15.

I agree it wasn't the norm, but I am sure it wasn't unheard of.

I also know that in most states (I thought there were a couple that allowed marriage as early as 15) we legally prohibit marriage at the ages that people married in the bible.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
she ain't dead yet.

Are you implying that I was careless with my cherished photos by entrusting them to my parents and that their loss is my own fault?

hmmmm.

Now we all know what happens when one assumes......


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
If Christians (or any religion) would accept young love for what it is, and celebrate it instead of deriding it, we would be better off.

Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
So you think that if a man rapes a girl, he should just pay her family the equivallent of 50 shceckels (sp) and she 's his wife now?











Trying for the life of me to figure out what this has to do with the topic of sex before marriage and how I am choosing to encourage/teach my children.


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## DuckyTate (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimiij*
Seems like you've got a lot of more liberal answers.

I will definitley encourage both my boys and my girls to wait until marriage. I think that sex is biological, emotional, and spiritual. They will have to make their own decisions but for their biological, emotional, and spiritual health, I will guide them towards what I think is optimal. I do not think that promiscuity (no matter how "safe") is smart and I don't wish that on my children or on anyone else's.

I am so glad I am not the only one who feels this way. My 3 sons and my daughter all know my views on this and respect them too.
Devlopent of a healthy self for me demands being 100% true to your values, and a major part of that means not seeing sex as a thing to banter around.
I try everyday to bring my children up to get a strong education, then get married then explore a healthy sexual realtionship inside of that marriage.
_If any one disagrees with my conservitave Cathloic views they call all bugger off no badgering will change my mind!_


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I agree it wasn't the norm, but I am sure it wasn't unheard of.

I also know that in most states (I thought there were a couple that allowed marriage as early as 15) we legally prohibit marriage at the ages that people married in the bible.

Yes, it varies by state, though in all states you need written parental permission to marry before 18. If the parent chooses not to sign off on it, the marriage won't happen.

Which is sad, in a way-- I really think that people who push for "abstinence till marriage" need to take into account that teens can't do the "right" thing... in that situation; if it's "better to marry than to burn," why is their choice in the matter limited to "burn?"

Even Paul the celibate end-timer made allowances for human sexual desire, which is more than I can say for a lot of Christians today, when it comes to teenagers.

And, AFAIK, one of the prime arguments for Jesus having had a wife is that it was so unheard of for Jewish men of the time to have failed to marry by adulthood that it some explanation would have been necessary in the narrative-- the fact that his marital status is not mentioned in the canonical gospels tends to imply that he WAS married.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*









Trying for the life of me to figure out what this has to do with the topic of sex before marriage and how I am choosing to encourage/teach my children.

Well, you're saying that the Bible is a standard for moral human behavior regardless of cultural context; all she's saying is that there are some parts that most Christians don't like to uphold anymore.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Now we all know what happens when one assumes......

The point of the photo thing is that, while my grandmother could marry as a 16-year old, and go on to have children and grandchildren, I could NOT do that with my first love.

My loving sexual relationship was not taken seriously at all by anyone, and I was denied almost all opportunities to keep that committment. I don't think this is a particularly unusual situation for teenagers to find themselves in.

Say that I had tried to elope with my boyfriend-- my parents would certainly have vetoed the marriage, called the cops, and had me forced back into their house. Maybe pressed kidnapping charges.

And the fact that neither of us could have made a living to support ourselves, plus the lack of family support.... well, you don't have the makings of a happy ending, let's just say that.

So my sexual relationship was viewed as being "immoral" when in fact, it was not significantly different than my grandmother's sexual relationship. The only real difference was the lack of community support and respect. Who knows-- maybe I'd still be with that guy today if not for the disrespect that we have for young love! eeek!

Official marriage is something controlled by the powers that be, not so much the parties involved... why we uphold it as some unchanging standard is beyond me. The goalposts move regularly on that one.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

*I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture.*

This is what you've been saying through this entire conversation. IF the bible is truly applicable today, then the story I quoted would be also applicable.

Deuteronomy 23:28-29 *"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not enganged and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her, he cannot divorce her all her days."*

This has everything to do with the topic of sex before marriage. According to the bible, a man could rape a virgin and then marry her, just by paying the father off.









You keep scratching your head and pretending you don't understand what's being said here when it doesn't fit your beliefs.

You said: _Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion._

So your beliefs aren't based on your actual faith? Or they are when they're convenient to you? If you profess to be a Christian, Muslim, LDS, Flying Spaghetti Monster follower, your beliefs should be unified.

JMO.

love, penelope


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

That's just it. Teenagers cannot get married under most circumstances, and they're actively discouraged from seeking marriage till fairly late even if they could. Would you honestly be thrilled if your kids came to you and said they wanted to get married at 14 or 16 or 18? What if your 16-year-old daughter announced her burning desire to marry a man ten or twelve years her senior? Those kinds of things were perfectly acceptable by biblical standards.










14 - not thrilled......16 - not thrilled......18 - totally up to my child and I don't think I would have many issues with marriage at this age. As far as the burning desire.....I wouldn't allow my sixteen year old to me with a man ten/twelve years her senior. Right, wrong, or indifferent...it wouldn't happen.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

Most people, OTOH, would encourage the kids to "at least wait till you're done with high school!" or "wait till you're done with college and you can get a good job to support your family!"


I am completely encouraging my children (male and female) to wait for them to finish their degree (or whatever training they choose for their career). This is where the change in expectations comes into play. They would have a more difficult time if they couldn't support themselves.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

All this waiting-- at some point, something's got to give, for most of us.










And some teens do give in to the waiting for whatever reason. But....some of the teens out there do not give in for any reason until the are married.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

All I'm saying is that we consider marriage to be a time of family formation, and, rightly or wrongly, we have chosen to delay the "ideal" onset of family formation till the early-to-mid 20s for girls, and the mid-to-late 20s for boys, for the most part.


I think you are correct on this point. I don't really see it as a bad thing though.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

Considering again that teenagers are either prohibited or discouraged from marrying, let's put that in the context of a first marriage. Can you imagine telling a pair of newlyweds that they are "spending too much time together?"


I think that newlyweds can spend too much time together just the same as any other couple of any age.....especially if they are not socializing with anyone else in their circle of friends.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

Would it be any of your damn business, as long as they were carrying out their daily tasks, that they chose to spend their every other waking moment together? I didn't think so. That'd provoke a major "Can you BELIEVE what my MIL told my DH???" thread if she were an MDC poster. Followed by 5 pages of "oh noes she didn't!" responses.


I think that if it were my child and they were spending "every waking moment together," then yes I would talk with them about. The same as I would talk with friends or family that I saw doing the same thing. I don't think it is healthy to completely disconnect from outside sources. I guess that in years to come, you will see a thread about me!









Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

Yes! Gracious, isn't it just awful that we look at a couple of 18 year olds as if they'll "never make it?" Surely you experienced some of that, even after getting the official piece of paper. Imagine how much worse without the piece of paper! Nobody takes you seriously at all.


I only experienced negativity from a professor. My family and friends all supported me. I am sure there are some people out there that are less than supportive. I really didn't experience any issues with you can't be in love b/c you are only xx age.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightferrettoes*

We called it "setting them up for failure" back when I was in the Army-- it means not giving the tools, confidence, or information needed to succeed to a young soldier. It happens in other arenas, too.


Honestly, I think that this is one of the issues with pre-marital sex being more prevalent. I think some families don't expect that the child can wait for marriage and go the opposite direction by condoning pre-marital sex. I see nothing wrong with expectations. Maybe, if the child is treated as being able to succeed at abstinence then it would be more likely to happen. If you set the stage (allowing bf/gf sleepover, bowls of condoms on the counters...) for failure of abstinence, then why would the child think they could succeed. We all have expectations for our children...I don't see why this should be any different.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

And what I mean by "lack of social regard--" a teenage relationship can be broken apart by forces not within the teen's control. Parents can have their teen transferred to another school district, they can force the teenager to move across the country, they can put the teen under what amounts to house arrest; they can, if the age gap is wide enough, press statutory rape charges, etc.

All with the approval of the community at large.


I totally am with you on this one. I do believe; however, sometimes as parents we can see when a relationship is not healthy for our child and we need to take the steps necessary to protect our child even if the child doesn't agree with us or see the problem.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

An "adult" relationship under that kind of duress would have a hard time surviving.


An "adult" relationship wouldn't have to endure any of the above duresses.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

For the tenth time, I'm talking about the ways in which our failure to celebrate young-adult sexuality at all is, culturally speaking, very prevalent and not helpful to anyone.


See, this where we differ immensely. I think today's culture is entirely too accepting of young-adult sexuality.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

We used to have teenage marriage. Now, we have.... ???? a big fat moral grey area.


We also used to have legal protection for marital rape/abuse.....some things have been set aside (teen marriage 17 and under) because society realizes it isn't in the best interest of anyone.

Yes! And so often, a couple _could_ marry at a young age, because they COULD then find decent work to support the new family. Now, it's much, much more difficult to marry, have kids, etc, and then find decent work at the age of 18 or 19 or even 23.

16? Forget about it!

Which is why we typically encourage our kids to not marry and start families till later in life. But we can't do that, and ignore their still-present sexuality, without serious consequences for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I don't see the serious consequences you see. Sorry, I just don't.


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Which is sad, in a way-- I really think that people who push for "abstinence till marriage" need to take into account that teens can't do the "right" thing... in that situation; if it's "better to marry than to burn," why is their choice in the matter limited to "burn?"

They can wait until they are married to have sex. It is possible.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Well, you're saying that the Bible is a standard for moral human behavior regardless of cultural context; all she's saying is that there are some parts that most Christians don't like to uphold anymore.









I am saying that for my the morals/values I am teaching my family the Bible is the standard. I have not said anything about it applying to all families. Each family will take into account cultural context and apply it their family. Same happens with my family.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
The point of the photo thing is that, while my grandmother could marry as a 16-year old, and go on to have children and grandchildren, I could NOT do that with my first love.

My loving sexual relationship was not taken seriously at all by anyone, and I was denied almost all opportunities to keep that committment. I don't think this is a particularly unusual situation for teenagers to find themselves in.

Say that I had tried to elope with my boyfriend-- my parents would certainly have vetoed the marriage, called the cops, and had me forced back into their house. Maybe pressed kidnapping charges.

And the fact that neither of us could have made a living to support ourselves, plus the lack of family support.... well, you don't have the makings of a happy ending, let's just say that.

So my sexual relationship was viewed as being "immoral" when in fact, it was not significantly different than my grandmother's sexual relationship. The only real difference was the lack of community support and respect. Who knows-- maybe I'd still be with that guy today if not for the disrespect that we have for young love! eeek!

Official marriage is something controlled by the powers that be, not so much the parties involved... why we uphold it as some unchanging standard is beyond me. The goalposts move regularly on that one.

Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
They can wait until they are married to have sex. It is possible.

Respectfully, you admit that you only had about three years worth of "waiting for marriage." That ain't _crap_ compared to the length of time most people would have to wait.

You can wait on almost anything for three years, and I'd say that a three-year gap is quite a reasonable thing for most people to handle

But make that ten years? Twelve or fifteen years? Sure, it's _possible_, but at the cost of denying an essential part of most people's humanity.

How is it better to burn for so long than to be in a relationship? How can you argue that marriage is the standard when the standard itself only bears a passing resemblence to the institution that was originally referenced?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
This is what you've been saying through this entire conversation. IF the bible is truly applicable today, then the story I quoted would be also applicable.

It isn't applicable because today's culture is not the same as in the Bible. I have said that more than once as well. There are many things we take from the past (Bible and otherwise) and build on them applying them to today's culture. The idea of waiting until marriage is no different in my opinion. You take the Bible and apply to today's cultural norms (none of which condone rape).

Deuteronomy 23:28-29 *"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not enganged and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her, he cannot divorce her all her days."*








I never said it wasn't in the bible.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
This has everything to do with the topic of sex before marriage. According to the bible, a man could rape a virgin and then marry her, just by paying the father off.









Which doesn't apply according to the norms of today's society.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
You keep scratching your head and pretending you don't understand what's being said here when it doesn't fit your beliefs.

I am actually scratching my head when the quote makes no sense in the context of sex before marriage and how I will encourage/teach my children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
You said: _Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion._

So your beliefs aren't based on your actual faith? Or they are when they're convenient to you? If you profess to be a Christian, Muslim, LDS, Flying Spaghetti Monster follower, your beliefs should be unified.

All people in all walks of religion hold various aspects more important than others. I have not met a Christian yet that I can completely agree with on every point. Just as anyone as, regardless of religion, can find a person they completely agree with. Walk slowly on the slippery slope of accusation. It really does noone any good.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.

Goodness gracious!

I'd like to know how it's possible to maintain a relationship across the Pacific Ocean with no telephone contact or letters! For two years! With no money for plane tickets! When your entire family repeatedly derides the whole thing as "ridiculous and soon to blow over!"

I really hope you treat your children's relationships less flippantly than you just treated the memory of mine. I am a little angry right now.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Respectfully, you admit that you only had about three years worth of "waiting for marriage." That ain't _crap_ compared to the length of time most people would have to wait.

You can wait on almost anything for three years, and I'd say that a three-year gap is quite a reasonable thing for most people to handle

But make that ten years? Twelve or fifteen years? Sure, it's _possible_, but at the cost of denying an essential part of most people's humanity.

How is it better to burn for so long than to be in a relationship? How can you argue that marriage is the standard when the standard itself only bears a passing resemblence to the institution that was originally referenced?

Why set it up to fail. The idea that marriage means something different nowadays is a testament to the way society is moving. That doesn't mean everyone is on the bandwagon for the disintegration of marriage today.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Goodness gracious!

I'd like to know how it's possible to maintain a relationship across the Pacific Ocean with no telephone contact or letters! For two years! With no money for plane tickets! When your entire family repeatedly derides the whole thing as "ridiculous and soon to blow over!"

I really hope you treat your children's relationships less flippantly than you just treated the memory of mine. I am a little angry right now.

Sorry to make you angry. My brother was in a similar situation, but was moved to another state. They waited. It's possible. Not ideal, but possible.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Why set it up to fail. The idea that marriage means something different nowadays is a testament to the way society is moving. That doesn't mean everyone is on the bandwagon for the disintegration of marriage today.

Well, why set teen love up to fail by refusing to offer it any kind of social legitmacy?

And who said I was on the "bandwagon" for marriages to break up?

Maybe our failure to respect and celebrate love when it's young and passionate and too dumb to know any better yet







gives rise to this "disintegration" of which you speak.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Sorry to make you angry. My brother was in a similar situation, but was moved to another state. They waited. It's possible. Not ideal, but possible.

Anything is possible. But why don't you think it's setting a young couple up to fail when something like that is allowed to happen? Because "parents know best?"








If you busted up thousands of pairs of newlyweds for two years with no contact, told them that their relationship was ridiculous every time they bawled about it, and fully expected them all to "move on," don't you think that'd help cause more than a few divorces?

Would you then belittle the awfulness of their experiences by telling them "it obviously wasn't meant to work out?"

I don't know what else to say to you.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Well, why set teen love up to fail by refusing to offer it any kind of social legitmacy?

Why do you believe teen love can't survive without sex? I never said that teen love should be set up to fail.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
And who said I was on the "bandwagon" for marriages to break up?









I didn't realize I said you were on the bandwagon. You said the marriage of today doesn't resemble marriage of the past. I agreed with you and stated I wasn't on the bandwagon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Maybe our failure to respect and celebrate love when it's young and passionate and too dumb to know any better yet







gives rise to this "disintegration" of which you speak.

I don't recall saying we shouldn't respect/celebrate love when it's young.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Anything is possible. But why don't you think it's setting a young couple up to fail when something like that is allowed to happen? Because "parents know best?"

Absolutely there are times when parents know best. I also think that some situations require parental involvement. Do I agree with how my parents handled my brother...not really sure on that. They were together after they were of legal age for about a year and then parted ways. I honestly don't think the relationship was healthy, but I was an outside observer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*







If you busted up thousands of pairs of newlyweds for two years with no contact, told them that their relationship was ridiculous every time they bawled about it, and fully expected them all to "move on," don't you think that'd help cause more than a few divorces?

You keep returning to marriage. The topic is sex before marriage. I really don't know how the couples would do. Not really relevant to what the topic was supposed to be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Would you then belittle the awfulness of their experiences by telling them "it obviously wasn't meant to work out?"

Maybe that is the truth....maybe it's not. Maybe your parents felt there was something not right about the relationship.....maybe they were just out to ruin your teenage years. I wasn't there, so I really don't know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I don't know what else to say to you.

You don't really have to say anything else to me.....we differ in opinion. It doesn't have to be a one person is right and the other person is wrong scenario. I will do what I feel is best for my family, just as everyone else in the world will do what is right for their families.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Why do you believe teen love can't survive without sex? I never said that teen love should be set up to fail.

I think that's disingenous-- like saying that "marriage can survive without sex." It can, but sex is deeply entwined with love, and we all know that marriages without that deeply felt, regularly shared sexual connection tend to run into a lot of serious trouble in other areas.

Which is why we make the effort to maintain that sexual connection, even in times when it's not first on our priority list. Like postpartum.











> I didn't realize I said you were on the bandwagon. You said the marriage of today doesn't resemble marriage of the past. I agreed with you and stated I wasn't on the bandwagon.
> 
> 
> > I suspect you and I are talking about differing aspects of change in marriage. I'm talking about how marriage has become much, much MORE restricted in terms of who can contract it, and I suspect you're talking about how it's become LESS restricted in terms of how it can be ended.
> ...


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
You keep returning to marriage. The topic is sex before marriage. I really don't know how the couples would do. Not really relevant to what the topic was supposed to be.

Maybe it's because we're talking about extramarital sexual relationships between people who are actually forbidden to marry? And who, throughout most of our history, would have actually been encouraged to marry early? Maybe?

I think it's funny that you keep talking about how we've changed our cultural standards since Biblical times so that their standards don't apply-- except, apparently, for THIS one. I don't get the selectiveness.

Seems to me that anybody who is all het up about premarital sex and divorce also ought to get het up about the completely modern abolition of teen marriage. Two sides of the same cultural coin.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I think it's funny that you keep talking about how we've changed our cultural standards since Biblical times so that their standards don't apply-- except, apparently, for THIS one. I don't get the selectiveness.

I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.

but the two "irrelevent" examples mentioned here DO pertain to the "biblical" standards regarding marriage and sex-- the forced automatic marriage of rapists to their victims, complete with bride price paid to the father, IS an aspect of biblical standards for marriage and sexual expression.

So is the young onset of marriageable age, making it much more likely that most people would be able to follow the prescription for not having premarital (or, shall I say, pre-betrothal,) sex. It wasn't a matter of stifling sexuality for years on end for the sake of spiritual purity or moral fulfillment, as we seem to interpret it now, and it wasn't a matter of rules for rules' sake-- it was a matter of maintaining property values in a world that considered female virginity prime real estate. LOL.

Morality is a function of a cultural background and the ways we come up with to minimize the friction of dealing with possible conflicts. The Bible doesn't contain intellectual property laws or ways to resolve copyright disputes, simply because the culture of the time didn't demand that those issues be addressed.

I can't see how the one can be sensibly divorced from the other aspect. Not without taking it so far out of context as to be almost meaningless.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.

So by the same token the many of us, or would that be most of us, here who had sex without being married and are still with that person validates having sex without being married? It speaks volumes then?


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

Hell, my husband is 12 years older than I am. Wonder how THAT woulda gone over when I was sixteen or seventeen. We joke about it sometimes









But I've not changed so much since then... what about that relationship would have been so unsavory and dreadful then, that is so perfectly acceptable now?

50 years ago, nobody would have breathed a word about a 16 year old woman marrying a 28 year old. Now, you can go to jail for that sort of thing. Food for thought, anyway.









ITA! My father just went to a high school reunion. He and his friends were talking about what people were doing these days, and a great number of teachers had married students. No big deal 50 years ago, prison time today.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.









so some aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today, and some are.

So does everyone get to decide for themselves which are and aren't relevant or do you believe that you get to decide for everyone else? Or just for your kids?

Just trying to clarify.

By the way, my parents believe the same thing you do and my DH and lived together FOR YEARS before we got married. (And then it was just because I wanted to be a SAHM and by getting married I could be on his health insurrance). In spite of the fact that we are very happy together, I think marriage is a fairly bogus idea.

You can tell your kids whatever you want to, but ultimately they have free choice. This isn't something that you get to decide for them. Really.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kerry*
ITA! My father just went to a high school reunion. He and his friends were talking about what people were doing these days, and a great number of teachers had married students. No big deal 50 years ago, prison time today.

Isn't it funny how times change? It's not impossible that my husband could have been one of my high-school band directors, if things had just gone a little differently in our two lives. As it was, we didn't happen to meet till I was eighteen, and didn't marry till a few years after that.

I don't know whether that's a good thing or not, honestly.







Maybe it's just a "how it is" thing.

And my great-grandma was the local schoolmistress-- eight years older than my great-granddad.... he always liked to recall how he fell in love with her at the end of her paddle on a particularly trying day.









Um, OK, granddad.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

I don't think the fact that you didn't end up with your teen love speaks volumes about the relationship. I can totally see your anger at the situation. Realtionships are hard enough, but when you are isolated and don't have family support nearly impossible, as a teen I would say completely impossible!

This is reminding me of a relationship I had that was doomed to fail without support.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
but the two "irrelevent" examples mentioned here DO pertain to the "biblical" standards regarding marriage and sex...

The example of rape doesn't apply because the cultural standards of today have changed in a way that it is not culturally acceptable to obtain a wife in this manner. Even if I followed this Biblical standard, I wouldn't be able to practice it b/c it is against the law. Encouraging my children to remain a virgin until marriage is not against the law and is still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.

As far as marriage to a teenager.....again even if I agreed and followed the Biblical standard on this it is no longer the cultural norm as it was in Biblical times. It is now illegal for certain age groups to get married. It is not illegal to encourage my children to remain virgins until marriage and it still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
So by the same token the many of us, or would that be most of us, here who had sex without being married and are still with that person validates having sex without being married? It speaks volumes then?

It speaks volumes to you that you are commited to that person in your life. I don't believe it validates having sex without being married. The big difference is the aversion to being married. Maybe you (general you) don't see the point of marriage, maybe you (general you) don't what the government sanctioning marriage. I have no idea why you felt it was right for you.

I do not feel it is right to be in a sexual relationship with a person without being married. My personal belief system which I will share with my children just as you (general) will share your personal beliefs to your children.

I don't see the point of trying to prove one way wrong and the other right. Everyone follows their own beliefs. To each his own.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*







so some aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today, and some are.

Some of the aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today because some of them are now illegal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
So does everyone get to decide for themselves which are and aren't relevant or do you believe that you get to decide for everyone else? Or just for your kids?

All Christians decide what aspects of the bible take precedence in their lives. Some follow the word to the letter, some don't. I don't recall saying I get to decide for everyone else. As far as my kids, I have already said I will encourage them to wait for marriage. I have also already said that in the end it will be children's decision and I will support them in whatever decision they choose for themselves.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
Just trying to clarify.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
By the way, my parents believe the same thing you do and my DH and lived together FOR YEARS before we got married. (And then it was just because I wanted to be a SAHM and by getting married I could be on his health insurrance). In spite of the fact that we are very happy together, I think marriage is a fairly bogus idea.

This goes right along with the to each his own theory.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
You can tell your kids whatever you want to, but ultimately they have free choice. This isn't something that you get to decide for them. Really.

I agree. I have said that one this thread already.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
As far as marriage to a teenager.....again even if I agreed and followed the Biblical standard on this it is no longer the cultural norm as it was in Biblical times. It is now illegal for certain age groups to get married. It is not illegal to encourage my children to remain virgins until marriage and it still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.

I just don't see why you're refusing to acknowlege that we've actually _narrowed_ people's freedoms in a lot of ways, and you don't seem to see or care that this narrowing of the options has a tendency to make them seek sexual satisfaction in other ways.

It's like you seem to think that our current "permissiveness" about premarital sex was invented out of thin air, and you're not willing to see or acknowlege the previous cultural patterns that led to the prevalence of the practice in the first place... chief among them being the need for many years of higher education to obtain a living wage and the concurrent de-legitimizing of teenage romances and marriage.

You just keep repeating, "well, it's possible." Well, yes it is. So is standing on my head for a week straight. What's being addressed here is whether it's GOOD or not. Or useful. Or moral. Or at all, in any way, helpful to people as a society.

Our ideas about "biblical standards" seem to be a lot stricter regarding sexual morality than they were originally intended to read. It seems to be OK to you for our culture to restrict the compass of sexual morality, but you're unwilling to allow it to ever expand. It's like the limits on loving sexual relationship possibilities get narrower and narrower with no new outlets ever being created or acknowleged as legit.

And I think that's sad and unnecessarily problematic for teens, and young adults, too.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kerry*
I don't think the fact that you didn't end up with your teen love speaks volumes about the relationship. I can totally see your anger at the situation. Realtionships are hard enough, but when you are isolated and don't have family support nearly impossible, as a teen I would say completely impossible!

This is reminding me of a relationship I had that was doomed to fail without support.









Yeah, it's kind of sucky, huh? I still think about the guy from time to time-- wonder where he is and hope he's okay without me, YK?









He was always a softhearted sweetie in a mean world.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
It is not illegal to encourage my children to remain virgins until marriage and it still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.

But your original post wasn't that it happened to come from the bible, but this :

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I just don't see why you're refusing to acknowlege that we've actually _narrowed_ people's freedoms in a lot of ways, and you don't seem to see or care that this narrowing of the options has a tendency to make them seek sexual satisfaction in other ways.

I am truly trying to see the narrowing of people's freedoms. It really isn't a matter of my not seeing or caring. The teen marriage aspect......I don't see this (lack of teen marriage) as a bad thing. What other ways are freedoms for teens narrowed to the point that they have to seek sexual satisfaction in other ways. I am truly interested in knowing these freedoms.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
You just keep repeating, "well, it's possible." Well, yes it is. So is standing on my head for a week straight. What's being addressed here is whether it's GOOD or not.

This is the difference between you and I. I don't view teen/pre-marital sex as a good thing. My children will make their own decisions on this subject and may choose to have sex before marriage. I won't agree with their actions, but I will love them and support them in their decisions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Our ideas about "biblical standards" seem to be a lot stricter regarding sexual morality than they were originally intended to read. It seems to be OK to you for our culture to restrict the compass of sexual morality, but you're unwilling to allow it to ever expand. It's like the limits on loving sexual relationship possibilities get narrower and narrower with no new outlets ever being created or acknowleged as legit.

I don't see where the culture is doing much in the way of restricting the compass of sexual morality and I am not unwilling to allow it to ever expand. I have never said that society needs to follow the ways I am teaching/encouraging my children. I am all for each family choosing their own way.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Yeah, it's kind of sucky, huh? I still think about the guy from time to time-- wonder where he is and hope he's okay without me, YK?









He was always a softhearted sweetie in a mean world.

Knowing about your situation had really made me think tonight. I promise to be much more respectful to my own teens as they develop relatioships, even though I am scared to death!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kerry*
But your original post wasn't that it happened to come from the bible, but this :


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.

Here is the first post I put on this thread. I stated that encouraging my children to wait until marriage was part of our belief system.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I am encouraging my children to wait until they are married. This is a part of our belief system. I am also teaching them about the implications of the various choices they may/may not make. I am not naive enough to think that by telling my child anything they will automatically comply. I do want to make sure they understand why it is so important to wait until marriage, but I will support them if they choose a different path.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

Oh, I understand.







I was just pointing out that when the conversation turned to biblical teachings you said that things weren't relavent because they were illegal, but earlier you said that the bible was what guided your teachings.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kerry*
Oh, I understand.







I was just pointing out that when the conversation turned to biblical teachings you said that things weren't relavent because they were illegal, but earlier you said that the bible was what guided your teachings.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I am truly trying to see the narrowing of people's freedoms. It really isn't a matter of my not seeing or caring. The teen marriage aspect......I don't see this (lack of teen marriage) as a bad thing. What other ways are freedoms for teens narrowed to the point that they have to seek sexual satisfaction in other ways. I am truly interested in knowing these freedoms.

Sigh. The abandonment of teen marriage is HUGE in this area. Where young lovers might once have gotten married and with full community support, shared a marital bed, they now face the rather harsh choice between keeping up a clandestine sexual relationship carried out under bleachers, in cars, and in the woods, or learning to deal with many years of sexual frustration.

We have never really forced young people to make that choice before. Is it any wonder that premarital sex is so prevelent? Frowning on it doesn't make it go away, that's for sure.

Quote:

This is the difference between you and I. I don't view teen/pre-marital sex as a good thing. My children will make their own decisions on this subject and may choose to have sex before marriage. I won't agree with their actions, but I will love them and support them in their decisions.
and this is a good thing. Though I'd say that communicating the idea that you view teen sex (by default, premarital sex, in a culture that doesn't endorse teen marriage) as substandard and disappointing is likely to impede y'all's communications a lot.

I sure wouldn't tell you much if you were my mom. And, in fact, I never did share anything about my sexual relationships with my mom, knowing she would be disappointed.







So we never talked about ANY of it. She got to think it wasn't happening, and I got to be left alone as much as possible.

Quote:

I don't see where the culture is doing much in the way of restricting the compass of sexual morality and I am not unwilling to allow it to ever expand. I have never said that society needs to follow the ways I am teaching/encouraging my children. I am all for each family choosing their own way.
Well, I can't stop you from trying to teach your kids this; I just see it as futile and probably ultimately more damaging than helpful in terms of maintaining an open communication on the subject.

We've been talking about ways that our culture has restriced sexual morality; "age gap" relationships that are now classified as "statutory rape," employer-employee relationships being banned, teacher-student relationships being banned where they were once viewed as cute and unremarkable, and, for the umpteenth time, TEENAGERS CAN'T GET MARRIED.







and their parents are unlikely to offer them the support they need to make it, even if they could.

Didja hear me yet?

I'm not saying that those new restrictions are all evil. I AM saying that we keep circling the wagons tighter and tighter on what's "permissible" for young people; at some point, people are going to express their sexual natures, even if they have to break some "rules" to do it.

I don't see how we can have all these new sexual morality rules without bending on some of the old ones.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
It speaks volumes to you that you are commited to that person in your life. I don't believe it validates having sex without being married. The big difference is the aversion to being married. Maybe you (general you) don't see the point of marriage, maybe you (general you) don't what the government sanctioning marriage. I have no idea why you felt it was right for you.

in terms of the bible, AFAIK, "bethrothed" couples were typically sexually active with each other, without having completed the process of marriage yet, as betrothals could go on for some time before the actual marriage was contracted.

so this model is probably not as far off the biblical mark as people seem to think it is.

Someone on Rel Studies can probably either confirm or refute this memory of mine.







It's been a long time since I waded into the sexual morality of the ancient peoples in the bible.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Side note...there's no telling how basic it will be. DS1 just had his school sex-ed this year (7th grade). It included a childbirth video.

hmmm.... thats some good birth control if there was any!!!















back to lurking now....


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Sigh. The abandonment of teen marriage is HUGE in this area. Where young lovers might once have gotten married and with full community support, shared a marital bed, they now face the rather harsh choice between keeping up a clandestine sexual relationship carried out under bleachers, in cars, and in the woods, or learning to deal with many years of sexual frustration.

We have never really forced young people to make that choice before. Is it any wonder that premarital sex is so prevelent? Frowning on it doesn't make it go away, that's for sure.

Honestly, I think pre-marital sex is so prevalent nowadays because teen sex is viewed as acceptable in today's culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Though I'd say that communicating the idea that you view teen sex (by default, premarital sex, in a culture that doesn't endorse teen marriage) as substandard and disappointing is likely to impede y'all's communications a lot.









Good luck to you and yours as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I sure wouldn't tell you much if you were my mom. And, in fact, I never did share anything about my sexual relationships with my mom, knowing she would be disappointed.







So we never talked about ANY of it. She got to think it wasn't happening, and I got to be left alone as much as possible.

Good thing I am not your mom then, eh.

As far as you choosing to not share the information with your mom. Your choice.....doesn't translate into anything other than your choice in your situation. I find it really sad that you were able to be left alone as much as possible and that you and your mom didn't have an open relationship. As much as you would like to believe, it doesn't guarantee anything in regards to the relationship with my children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Well, I can't stop you from trying to teach your kids this; I just see it as futile and probably ultimately more damaging than helpful in terms of maintaining an open communication on the subject.











Good thing your opinion isn't fact then I guess!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
We've been talking about ways that our culture has restriced sexual morality; "age gap" relationships that are now classified as "statutory rape," employer-employee relationships being banned, teacher-student relationships being banned where they were once viewed as cute and unremarkable, and, for the umpteenth time, TEENAGERS CAN'T GET MARRIED.







and their parents are unlikely to offer them the support they need to make it, even if they could.

Thank you for clarifying. I still see some of these changes as positive. Maybe not all of them, but some are definately good.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Didja hear me yet?

Obviously you don't believe I did. Really, do you think the only way I can hear you is if I agree with you? I assure you I can hear you and still disagree with you.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*

So, would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision? Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'. (you can put your own explanations here, please feel free to)

Okay, speaking as a parent and as a former person-who-waited-till-college, I would strongly, strongly advise my daughter to wait until she was...
a) an adult (18 and up)
b) in a steady, long-term relationship
c) ready to get married.

I do not feel that teenagers, for the most part, are emotionally mature enough to deal with the consequences of having sex, not the least of which is that many of them fail to take adequate precautions against pregnancy and STDs, including AIDS/HIV. The growing number of teens who are infected with these diseases is really horrifying and a testament to basically what I said above: they're not, as a general rule, responsible enough to engage in this behavior.

(OBVIOUSLY, before I get a ton of flames telling me how responsible _you_ were personally when you were having sex at ages 12-17, I am not including every single teenager on the face of the earth. I am, however, referring to _many_of them. Oh, and another "obviously": obviously, adults get infected with AIDS/HIV/STDs and get pregnant irresponsibly too. However, unless I am seriously mistaken, the numbers of STDs and irresponsible pregnancies are greater for teens who engage in sex than they are for sexually active adults.)

I also strongly believe that it cheapens sexuality, turning it into little more than mutual masturbation, particularly for boys (Sorry to be sexist here, but I tend to think women, especially young ones, invest more emotionally in a relationship or mistake sex for love, far more than young men do). If they find out that their BF just basically wanted to have sex (and didn't love them), the emotional consequences can be really devastating.

I also think that women particularly are putting themselves at greater risk for rape and sexual exploitation, including date rape, which is not only difficult to prove (e.g., "Judge, we were already in a sexually active relationship...") but may be difficult for the woman herself to distinguish (e.g., "I didn't want him to...but how can I say 'no' when I already said 'yes' to him before?")

Quote:

Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical. (you can also put your explanations here, please feel free to)
If my daughter were dead-set against the idea of waiting until she were an adult, etc., I would exert every argument I possessed to take her to Planned Parenthood for a Norplant device, if it were safe for her to take, plus all the condoms she could want. The last thing I'd want her to do is to have to deal with long-term consequences of what I would consider a foolish decision -- or to create a whole new (unplanned, unwanted) human being who'd have to bear the consequences of her decision.

Quote:



What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?

To be honest, I'd be far less freaked out if she were interested in other girls. Less chance of getting beaten, less chance of being coerced or raped, seriously diminished chance of STDs, and NO chance of pregnancy.

Just my opinions.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

Charles Baudelaire, are you my husband? Seriously, these are all the things he just said to me when I asked for his opinion! Weird, I tell ya.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

EFT said: *The abandonment of teen marriage is HUGE in this area. Where young lovers might once have gotten married and with full community support, shared a marital bed, they now face the rather harsh choice between keeping up a clandestine sexual relationship carried out under bleachers, in cars, and in the woods, or learning to deal with many years of sexual frustration.*

exactly. If we support our yourng (blooming) women and men in their loving relationships, even to the point of marriage, we will have a better community and they will feel supported and loved by their family.

I *don't* believe that an extended education is required for a loving, happy marriage or partnership. I don't even encourage my kids to look towards college in their future. (I encourage them toward real jobs and training....like being a cement truck driver, roofer, or midwife).

As for sex/making out before marriage...I only concern myself with STDs and unplanned pregnancies/abortions. I don't think it's abnormal to want to feel sexual love at 14...or earlier or later.

love, penelope


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
If we support our yourng (blooming) women and men in their loving relationships, even to the point of marriage, we will have a better community and they will feel supported and loved by their family.

I agree it is important to support our young people in their relationships (as long as they are healthy).











spruce said:


> I *don't* believe that an extended education is required for a loving, happy marriage or partnership. I don't even encourage my kids to look towards college in their future. (I encourage them toward real jobs and training....like being a cement truck driver, roofer, or midwife).[/spruce]
> 
> I don't believe an extended education is required for a loving, happy marriage. I do think an extended education is crucial to obtaining a good job that will support a family.
> 
> ...


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

*I don't believe an extended education is required for a loving, happy marriage. I do think an extended education is crucial to obtaining a good job that will support a family.*

*I am not sure how jobs that require college degrees wouldn't be real jobs or incorporate training. I encourage my kids to follow their hearts. My oldest son wants to be a crime scene investigator, my daughter was to be an animal cop for the ASPCA, my middle son wants to be a builder, and my youngest wants to be an entimologist. Whatever they choose because it is important to love what your doing in you work.*

My point was that a good income (or a bad one, depending on your opinion), is not something that needs to be decided before marriage.

My 13 yo (female) wants to do something with her hands. She is already amazing at carpentry, small engine repaire, etc. If she simply joined a union and began an apprenticieship, she'd grow her income year by year.

My 10yo will likely become an apprentice midwife. She's not looking for money, she's looking for fulfilling the desires of her heart.

*I don't think it is any more abnormal to want to feel sexual love as a teen than it is for the teen to make the decision to wait until marriage. Both are completely normal.*

Obviously, we totally disagree on this issue.

love, penelope


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## REDBREAST (May 6, 2006)

I encourage my kids to experiment if they want with sex and I make sure my kids, well my ds knows all about safe sex, meaning condom use, I have even shown him how to put a condom on, of course using a banana to do so. I am very comfortable and at ease talking about sex and both my kids have known how babies are made ever since they were tiny. I am not married to my partner, nor do we ever plan to "marry" so I would certainly sound hypocritical if I taught my kids to wait until being married to have sex. Besides as an athesist and revolutionary, marriage in itself is not something I believe in, therefore I am not going to teach my dk something I don't live by myself.

Sexual experimentation is natural, normal and biological. The instution of marriage is man-made, created for numerous purposes, none of them natural.

I totally and completely advocate for teen safe sex. What I would push for is education for teens to teach them how to treat one another with respect and diginity, so when a girl who is sexually active is not seen as a "slut" available to be taken advantage of and a sexually active boy is not seen as a "stud." I am down for changing that mentality and treatment through educational workshops and lectures.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

REDBREAST said : *I encourage my kids to experiment if they want with sex and I make sure my kids, well my ds knows all about safe sex, meaning condom use, I have even shown him how to put a condom on, of course using a banana to do so. I am very comfortable and at ease talking about sex and both my kids have known how babies are made ever since they were tiny. I am not married to my partner, nor do we ever plan to "marry" so I would certainly sound hypocritical if I taught my kids to wait until being married to have sex. Besides as an athesist and revolutionary, marriage in itself is not something I believe in, therefore I am not going to teach my dk something I don't live by myself.*

Oh, yeah!! Complete agreement here.

As for the slut/stud dichotomoy, oy vey, did I go through that. I was 10 when I started menarche, and by 12 I was a DD.







Everyone called me a slut and I didn't even know what that meant. (I held one boy's hand that year...and got beat up for it because he was black and I was white).

My kids know this story. They are lucky in that the 13yo has not begun her cycles (nor the 10 yo!!). I hope that they are able to physically put off that beginning until THEY are ready for it.

/too much talking, sorry.

love, penelope


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Oh, wait! On the "marriage" t hing, we didn't think it was important, either. (Still really don't see the importance).

But we did get married because it was important to my RC father, who was dying of brain cancer. He passed on two weeks after our marraige, and we were married by one of my best friends (legal here in our state).

I'm glad we got married, but hope my kids don't have the same situation in which to make that choice.









love, penelope


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## SparklyMoose (Feb 13, 2005)

Yes, we will encourage our son to wait until marriage. I don't want him to feel that sex is something to be taken lightly, because I don't feel it is. My husband was my first, though we were not yet married (in fact, I was pregnant when we got married), at age 25. I waited until I was in love and certain that the relationship I was in had a future.

That is the minimum I would want for him. To be in a loving, committed relationship. I know he probably will have sex before he's married. I hope that he waits until adulthood, and makes an intelligent, responsible decision. If he waits until he's married, all the better.

I also plan for him to understand how to protect himself and his partner if he does choose to have sex. I think abstinence-only education is dangerous. I think it's VERY important for him to have all the facts and make a good decision for him. I also don't see why my having sex before I was married should play into my child's sex life and what I teach him. I planned on waiting, and ended up making a different decision. It's not a decision I regret at all. I hope at such time that my son decides to become sexually active, that he can say the same.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

*Yes, we will encourage our son to wait until marriage.*

But will you allow/permit/love on the fact that he might be ready for marriage by 17?

love, penelope


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## SparklyMoose (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
*Yes, we will encourage our son to wait until marriage.*

But will you allow/permit/love on the fact that he might be ready for marriage by 17?

love, penelope

If that's what happens, then I suppose so. However, I haven't known many 17 year olds in my life who were mature enough to make major life decisions like marriage (myself included, and I always considered myself mature for my age).

And regardless of what decision he makes...even if it's one that ultimately disappoints me, it's not going to change the fact that I love my son. Choosing to have sex before I think he's ready will not affect that love at all.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I just want to comment on *eightyferrettoes's* posts - not only I am finding myself nodding as I read them, I am also very impressed at the way you express your opinions.

I never even bothered to think in those terms







but now it makes complete sense!

Thank you







(says the person who engaged in premarital sex and thankfully managed to be married at 17 to my 19yo first love. Oh, and our 20th anniversary is coming up...)


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

My take on it is this.. I would rather her wait till she was ready to have an adult relationship with someone and she was capable of being a responsible adult if something should happen. (pregnancy std etc..) I also do not think that my daughter (now this is just mine) would be emotionaly ready for such a leap in a relationship at this age. (she is 15) A broken heart hurts so much more when you have shared that intamacy with someone. I also want her to respect herself and her body, imo it isnt something that should just be passed around like a dish full of mints. I am aware though that teens have sex and I would hope that if she needed BC or condoms she would use them to at least protect herself.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
My point was that a good income (or a bad one, depending on your opinion), is not something that needs to be decided before marriage.

My 13 yo (female) wants to do something with her hands. She is already amazing at carpentry, small engine repaire, etc. If she simply joined a union and began an apprenticieship, she'd grow her income year by year.

My 10yo will likely become an apprentice midwife. She's not looking for money, she's looking for fulfilling the desires of her heart.

In order to be able to support yourself and/or spouse some sort of income is necessary. I am thinking we agree on this.? I think the training programs (apprenticeship) can be just as beneficial as college. The type of career you are looking for will determine the type of training necessary (ie. college/apprentice/on the job)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce*
Obviously, we totally disagree on this issue.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SparklyMoose*
Yes, we will encourage our son to wait until marriage. I don't want him to feel that sex is something to be taken lightly, because I don't feel it is.

That is the minimum I would want for him. To be in a loving, committed relationship. I hope that he waits until adulthood, and makes an intelligent, responsible decision. If he waits until he's married, all the better.

I also plan for him to understand how to protect himself and his partner if he does choose to have sex. I think abstinence-only education is dangerous. I think it's VERY important for him to have all the facts and make a good decision for him. I also don't see why my having sex before I was married should play into my child's sex life and what I teach him. I planned on waiting, and ended up making a different decision. It's not a decision I regret at all. I hope at such time that my son decides to become sexually active, that he can say the same.









:


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

This is a great discussion. Let's try to *continue* keeping it on topic. The religous/ Bible discussion would make a great thread in Religous studies, those who want to pick up the discussion in that direction I would urge to start another thread.

Thanks,
Kelly


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedK*
This is a great discussion. Let's try to *continue* keeping it on topic. The religous/ Bible discussion would make a great thread in Religous studies, those who want to pick up the discussion in that direction I would urge to start another thread.

Thanks,
Kelly











Thank you.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

my dh and i waited till we got married, and i don't regret waiting one bit. i was 21 and he was 26. my dh was also a virgin (he also wanted to remain a virgin till he found his life partner). he is the only conservative-old-fashioned one out of his siblings.
_and call me crazy, but i like it that way._
i like knowing that we both saved our most intimate moment to share with eachother. i also like knowing that i don't and will not have any STD's ever and neither will he.
i also had plenty of boyfriends before dh. i did have sexual urges but always resisted having sex because i knew i would regret doing it with someone who may not be around in 3 weeks time. i knew i wanted to save that most intimate act for someone that would hopefully end up being my life partner.

and i wish the same for my two girls. my daughters will probably grow up having a very conservative view towards sex before marriage (because of our views) and i don't see that as a bad thing at all.

i know when the time is right i'm going to be honest about what sex is: the good, the bad, everything needed to know about safe sex and birth control and what our views on sex before marriage are. i'm going to inform them and then the decision lies with them. i do have one expectation though, and that is if they choose to have sex before marriage, that they are mature enough to understand what they are doing and not just giving into raging teenage hormones.

i sometimes do feel a little 'backwards' or un-liberal for wanting to encourage my children to not have sex before marriage, but i am trying to rid of everyone elses modern world expectations and just go with mine and dh's.


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## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

One thing I haven't seen addressed here.

What is your child is gay and thus cannot ever get married under the current political environment?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MountainLaurel*
One thing I haven't seen addressed here.

What is your child is gay and thus cannot ever get married under the current political environment?


It is addressed in the OP.

If you have a view on this please feel free to share it. I Specifically added 'what will you do when your child has an interest in the opposite/same sex'


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## AmberC (May 9, 2006)

My views for what they are worth.

I don't think I could encourage waiting until marriage. I would not enjoy being trapped in a marriage with a man that I was incompaitble, sexually, with. The first two guys I was with were NOT how I'd want to spend the rest of my life. Inconsiderate, uncaring of my feelings, only worried about thier own experience. After that, I'd decided I was done with sex. If that's how it was, I wanted NO part of it. I was 19 yo the first time, by the way. But when I met my husband, he was different. He was considerate of me, concerned about what I was getting from the experience, wanted me to be comfortable with whatever we were doing, etc. I learned that I could enjoy sex. What if I'd married the first or second guy? I'd be pretty darn miserable right now, because neither of them cared about my feelings when we were in the bedroom. So I believe that the only way you can truly know if you'd be happy with someone in a marriage is to have sex with them. NOW I don't condone having sex with anybody and everybody that comes your way. Not by a long shot. But there's no way in the world I would have considered marrying my husband if I hadn't had sex with him first, AND lived with him first. We actually moved in together about 2 weeks after we met, and lived together for 3 years. And we had our share of ups and downs and I even moved out once. Then we had a long heart-to-heart and I moved back. We got married on the 3 year anniversary of the day we met, and have been together 5 1/2 years now.

What will I tell my DD? She's only 4 so I've got time yet. But I think that if you cut out peer pressure, and just go with what you FEEL, and what your heart tells you, you know. I knew the moment I met my DH that he was the man I was looking for (or not looking for, as the case was at the time). I knew he was "the one." I actually called my mom later and told her so!

I don't think marriage should be a requirement at any point, either. But it IS for a lot of reasons. My mom lived with her boyfriend (the best man she ever had, I considered him my dad even though I was an adult when they met) for 3 1/2 years. He died suddenly and unexpectedly, and since they were not married, she didn't have a leg to stand on for anything. His family kicked her out of the home she'd shared with him. He would have wanted her to stay there for as long as she wanted (it was paid for long ago, and he owned it), and his family knew that. But since they weren't married she wasn't legally entitled to anything and didn't get anything. Shortly after this happened is when DH and I decided to get married. He said that if anything happened to him, he wanted to make sure that I was in a legal position to make decisions, and that I wouldn't lose our home. So we got married mostly for legal reasons. Our relationship hasn't changed. The only thing different is that we have the same last name. I didn't like having a last name from DH and DD, but that wasn't enough for us to decide to get married. So if for no reason other than that, I would encourage DD to marry when she found the right guy, to protect both of them if anything should happen to the other.

And although it doesn't apply to this post, we also have life insurance on each other to protect ourselves if the unthinkable happens.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

I've been t hinking about this whole topic all night...(I'm an insomniac)...

I would *rather* my children wait to have sex just because it's so damn dangerous these days. (It was always dangerous, but now we have HIV, incredible rates of venereal warts, etc). I would *rather* my kids wait to have sex so they can know they're sharing something so powerful with someone they have chosen carefully.

The chances of that happening (waiting until they find the person they will be with forever), are not 100%, and therefore I'll educate them about STDs, abuse within a relationship, pregnancy, birth control, and abortion options.
(I already do this, my 13 yo feels "talked out" aobu tthe issue...I even taught a hs class on this stuff because other parents can be very nervous about it...it's easiest for me just to spit it all out).









I don't care if my children choose a same-sex partner. I wouldn't do anything differently except educate them about the hatred and fear they may endure if they make their relationship public (which they should have the right to). I certainly won't hold any lower standards of education as far as STD prevention, knowledge of what constitutes abuse, etc.

Like all mothers, I just want my children to be safe, happy, and loving.

love, penelope


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Well IMO kids are more promiscuous these days even than they were 20+ years ago when I was a teen. I'm only 37 and I can see that. There is so much more sex on t.v. these days, on MTV, even the regular stations that air shows like Desperate Housewives and other shows.

So I think the sex talk has to begin at a much earlier age. We have already started talking to our 10 yr old about things here and there. I think it's up to us as his parents to talk to him first before some kids at school get to him and tell him the wrong thing or tell him what he should or shouldn't do.

I'm not going to say that I will be the perfect mom of the perfect teen that won't have pre-marital sex, that would be wrong. But I do hope that I give him the information he needs now and as he gets older that will help him make sensible decisions regarding sexual activity. I would hope he thinks more of himself than to just go out with anyone and to also know how to protect himself.

These are things that we will most certainly talk with him about but not xpect him to go out and do it just because we gave him that information. My kids attend a private Christian school so I'm hoping we have time to tell them what they need to know before other kids do. I want to instruct them in that area and then hope that when alone they will make the best decisions for themselves. I can't live their life for them though, as much as I wish I could. Man, it's just so much easier when they are toddlers!

"I" personally went wrong as a teen when it came to sex because I was alone alot and DH has told me the same thing as well. We both had parents that worked all the time and we were left alone to hang out with our peer group day and night and weekends and we learned it all from them. My mom would have rather had her head bashed in than to talk about sex with me and my siblings. She was the type to think "don't do it, it's bad" and that was it. I will NOT be that type of parent.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
Well IMO kids are more promiscuous these days even than they were 20+ years ago when I was a teen. I'm only 37 and I can see that. There is so much more sex on t.v. these days, on MTV, even the regular stations that air shows like Desperate Housewives and other shows.

Oh I so disagree! Dh and I often joke what a "prude" our 19yo is! And kids of our friends too!

I also notice that (at least where we live), TV is kinda a "dated" thing. Internet, chats, myspace - yes, but TV? The teens that I see are not really interested










We are in the same "age group", LOL - I am 36 and DH is 38.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

for my own part, i advocate sexual mindfulness and discuss sexual ethics with teens. (i do not have children, but many parents call on me to talk to their children about sex when they feel uncomfortable with it.)

i often talk about or we discuss what they think sex is--physically, spiritually, emotionally, socially, etc. how they feel about it, and we talk about the concept of using people vs offering yourself and having them offer themselves to you, the situations of STDs, unplanned pregnancies, and even relationship difficulties from 'cheating' and similar.

essentially, i don't think marriage is the key so much as mindfulness. I don't want young people mindlessly having sex and using people. i think that experimentation is valuable, and i want them to feel safe physically and emotionally when/if they experiment.

and in my current experience, most of the teens with whom i've discussed this topic have 'waited' until they felt 'ready.' so we also talk about what 'ready' means, and some feel 'ready' but they haven't found someone with whom they want to relate in that way yet.

so, i think that teaching mindfulness is important in this.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Oh I so disagree! Dh and I often joke what a "prude" our 19yo is! And kids of our friends too!

I also notice that (at least where we live), TV is kinda a "dated" thing. Internet, chats, myspace - yes, but TV? The teens that I see are not really interested









We are in the same "age group", LOL - I am 36 and DH is 38.

My husband is actually a lot older than your's is and we are Christians (big difference there). I'm sure it's just *your* child and their little group. It's good that he's perfect.







But not all kids are. Not to mention I'm on the East Coast. Maybe it's a regional thing. Kids that live in the country are just as easily sucked in to bad choices as kids in the city. You just can't generalize and say because your child is the perfect kid (to your face ofcourse, hehe) then all the kids they know are. That's ridiculous, sorry! There IS peer pressure out there and all kids get sucked in to it sooner or later in some way, whether a little bit or a lot. Your child probably isn't completely honest with you about all things and I'm sorry if that's the case.

Oh and the internet, chatting, my space, oh yes, don't get me started on how bad that is! In fact, it would be best if t.v. were the only worry parents had, but it's not. If I were you, I'd be more worried about the internet.







:

My kids attend a private school with 18-22 yr olds that help out in the afternoons and summer camps. They all have myspace blogs with not so goody-goody stuff in them.







I guess they figure old fogies like me aren't going to be looking and accidentally browse through there like I happened to do one day.









I'm not naive though. I'm on the internet all the time, much more than most teens I'm sure and I know what's going on out there in that age group right now. I won't be naive like my own parents were and let the teens get one over on me.

You know even I can admit that my child/ren are going to do things that I will not know about when they are teens. I'm cool with that. Hopefully what I've taught them here at home will be in the back of their minds at all times. But I won't go around being so naive as to say they are "prudes" at that age because of the behavior they present in front of my face but not what they do when they aren't with me. With the way kids dress, talk and act these days anyone in their own right mind can't compare them to teens in the 80's and say they are the same. It's just not possible!

I've gotten off topic at this point. The main thing is that we all do what is best with our OWN children and don't put others down just for commenting on this topic.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

I don't see Irinam putting anyone down.

just disagreeing, but please try to stay on topic.

BTW- My mom would also disagree.... My mom says that teens now are just as 'bad' if you want to put that term to it, I wouldn't, as the teens back then. And my mom was a 'teen' in the early 70's.

She has a BTDT mentality.

I understand that different 'social' groups breed different examples and understandings, but in my late teens I was way into the church and some of the most promiscuous people I knew were in that social group.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
My husband is actually a lot older than your's is and we are Christians (big difference there).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I'm sure it's just *your* child and their little group. It's good that he's perfect.







But not all kids are. Not to mention I'm on the East Coast. Maybe it's a regional thing. Kids that live in the country are just as easily sucked in to bad choices as kids in the city. You just can't generalize and say because your child is the perfect kid (to your face ofcourse, hehe) then all the kids they know are. That's ridiculous, sorry! There IS peer pressure out there and all kids get sucked in to it sooner or later in some way, whether a little bit or a lot. Your child probably isn't completely honest with you about all things and I'm sorry if that's the case.

I saw nowhere in the thread where the poster stated their child was perfect. Just really curious what generalization was made by the poster.

I agree there is peer pressure and as you said yourself all kids get sucked it it sooner or later....yours included. No child is immune to peer pressure. As far as the assumption the child isn't being honest, well we all know about assumptions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
Oh and the internet, chatting, my space, oh yes, don't get me started on how bad that is! In fact, it would be best if t.v. were the only worry parents had, but it's not. If I were you, I'd be more worried about the internet.







:

My kids are on the internet and we have taken safeguards to help ensure their safety. As with a lot of things in today's world...the child must be shown and taught to navigate safely.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
My kids attend a private school with 18-22 yr olds that help out in the afternoons and summer camps. They all have myspace blogs with not so goody-goody stuff in them.







I guess they figure old fogies like me aren't going to be looking and accidentally browse through there like I happened to do one day.









You are aware that there are just as many good myspace blogs as there are bad. Just wondering if you assume that b/c you can't find the information that the person helping in the afternoons or at camp are not doing anything you find objectionable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I'm not naive though. I'm on the internet all the time, much more than most teens I'm sure and I know what's going on out there in that age group right now. I won't be naive like my own parents were and let the teens get one over on me.

I am not sure you would be able to prevent a teen from "getting one over on you" just by visiting sites they may frequent. It is naive to think that the only teens that are out there doing objectionable things (in you eyes) are going to online. One of the guys I grew up with who was a polite young man who was always willing to help turned out to be a child rapist. You can't protect teens from everything. Even if you could....how will they learn to protect themselves. Arm them with the knowledge and trust that they will know what to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
You know even I can admit that my child/ren are going to do things that I will not know about when they are teens. I'm cool with that. Hopefully what I've taught them here at home will be in the back of their minds at all times. But I won't go around being so naive as to say they are "prudes" at that age because of the behavior they present in front of my face but not what they do when they aren't with me. With the way kids dress, talk and act these days anyone in their own right mind can't compare them to teens in the 80's and say they are the same. It's just not possible!

It depends on the kids. I was one of these "good kids" to the parents face or not. It is highly offensive to assume that all teens are putting on a fake face just to "get one over on you." Some kids will do that......but just as many won't do that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I've gotten off topic at this point. The main thing is that we all do what is best with our OWN children and don't put others down just for commenting on this topic.

You do realize that you are just as guilty as putting down others as you seem to think others are doing to you.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
My husband is actually a lot older than your's is and we are Christians (big difference there). I'm sure it's just *your* child and their little group. It's good that he's perfect.







But not all kids are. Not to mention I'm on the East Coast. Maybe it's a regional thing. Kids that live in the country are just as easily sucked in to bad choices as kids in the city. You just can't generalize and say because your child is the perfect kid (to your face ofcourse, hehe) then all the kids they know are. That's ridiculous, sorry! There IS peer pressure out there and all kids get sucked in to it sooner or later in some way, whether a little bit or a lot. Your child probably isn't completely honest with you about all things and I'm sorry if that's the case.

Oh and the internet, chatting, my space, oh yes, don't get me started on how bad that is! In fact, it would be best if t.v. were the only worry parents had, but it's not. If I were you, I'd be more worried about the internet.







:

My kids attend a private school with 18-22 yr olds that help out in the afternoons and summer camps. They all have myspace blogs with not so goody-goody stuff in them.







I guess they figure old fogies like me aren't going to be looking and accidentally browse through there like I happened to do one day.









I'm not naive though. I'm on the internet all the time, much more than most teens I'm sure and I know what's going on out there in that age group right now. I won't be naive like my own parents were and let the teens get one over on me.

You know even I can admit that my child/ren are going to do things that I will not know about when they are teens. I'm cool with that. Hopefully what I've taught them here at home will be in the back of their minds at all times. But I won't go around being so naive as to say they are "prudes" at that age because of the behavior they present in front of my face but not what they do when they aren't with me. With the way kids dress, talk and act these days anyone in their own right mind can't compare them to teens in the 80's and say they are the same. It's just not possible!

I've gotten off topic at this point. The main thing is that we all do what is best with our OWN children and don't put others down just for commenting on this topic.

Wow, I did not realise that disagreeing with ONE statement can trigger so many assumptions about me and my family.

We ARE different. That part I agree with. Just like others above me said (thank you Yoshua and Houdini







) I never claimed DS as perfect. As a matter of fact I would love him to loosen up a little bit and NOT be that "prude".

Doing something different to my face? Hiding? WHY? He has absolutely no reason (other than personal boundaries and desire to be private in some aspects of his life, which we do respect)

"Not being completely honest"? Again - WHY? If he does not want to say something he does not and nobody forces him to, but when he does speak up why would he choose to make something up? He IS out of toddlerhood by now









We (as a family) don't spy, don't control, he KNOWS we don't expect him to stay celebate.

Sorry for getting off track. Just did not appreciate being called "naive" and my post "ridiculous" and implying that my son is probably a liar just because he does not *always* (notice, I did not say NEVER) follow the crowd.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Honestly, I think pre-marital sex is so prevalent nowadays because teen sex is viewed as acceptable in today's culture.
.


Teen sex has _always_ been viewed as being acceptable (and even valuable!) throughout our history. It's us, just in the last forty years, who have de-legitimized it, and "premarital" sex is the direct result of our failure to offer legitimacy and support to a part of human experience that has always existed.

Joseph and Mary were almost certainly young teenagers. Romeo and Juliet weren't even fifteen yet; and their families' objections to their union had absolutely nothing to do with their ages.









Teen love _and the sex that comes with that love_ have always, always been with us, and at some point, we need to acknowlege that basic aspect of our own humanity in a way that honors our teens and offers their relationships and their sexual needs the dignity they deserve.

My sexual and romantic needs at 24 are not substantially different than they were at 16-- both the 16-year-old me and the 24-year-old me are and were capable of forming deeply physical and emotionally intense bonds, as long as the support from my family and community helps me and my partner maintain those bonds.


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## Brazilianmommy (Aug 3, 2006)

I will let my dd choose when she is in the age 18 or 19 or even later with a person that she chooses becuase of love but myself I lost it at 20 (Yeah Yeah I know to old) but with the man that I'm sharing my life with and it was beautiful he was sweet and gentle and even though we didn't knew eachother very well(at that time) I knew that what I was doing was right becuase I love him but for me waiting till you get married is the best


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## RainbowsMum (Jun 4, 2006)

I haven't read anyone elses posts yet, this is just my opinion from the choices I've made, my views, the way I was brought up and also what I will do and how I see it as a parent. (Well an almost parent) I'm 21 so it wasn't that long ago I was a teenager myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Would you encourage your child to wait until marraige to have sex? Would you try to 'help' them make that decision? Tell them about how vaulable that gift is to their future mate, even if their future mate is not a virgin. How they are valuable in themselves and not to devalue themselves by giving it to 'whoever comes by'.

The way things are today, with teenagers and their views it is very rare that they see it valid to wait until marrage for sex. In fact, it seems these days that sex has been turned into nothing more than a thing that you do. Growing up, and even now I still see it, most males pride themselves on the number of females they've slept with, they even have competitions to see who can get a higher number. And more often than not, most females consider a "good night out" in town to be one where you end up going home with a guy. This is the social norm these days.

I personally lost my virginity when I was 15 - Which is quite young I admit. It was with a guy who I was with at the time, and I ended up being with him for 2 and a half years, Since then I have had 2 sexual partners, my boyfriend after that who I was with for 2 years, and my babys father who I've been with on and off for the past 8 months. I personally didn't share the views of my friends and peers about sex, I don't neccesarily beleive in waiting until marrage for sex, but I do beleive that it's something you don't just do, to me it was deeper than that, an act where you would almost give a part of yourself to someone... Like a gift. I know that sounds corny in a way but I don't know a better way to explain myself. I could only ever sleep with someone who I had deep feelings for and trusted. Unlike my friends would do, I always went home to my own bed, and alone after a night out. It's just how I was. I had many MANY oportunities to "up" my numbers so to speak, but like I said it wasn't me.

I don't regret any of my choices at all. Each of the 3 people ment something very important to me, I loved them all, and part of me always will. I was brought up with no rules as such so to me it was the way I felt personally rather than what I'd been taught or anything like that. And with having the no rules thing, I found it easier to talk to my Mother about things like that if I had to, I had no urge to do it to "rebel" or anything like that. I did it in my own time, when I was ready.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Or would you allow your child to grow and experiament when that nature because natural to him? Would you allow him/her the freedom to make his own choice, albeit you educate him/her to the dangers and how to protect themselves. How 'no means no' and all that education bit. About condoms and birth control methods, natural or chemical.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
What would you do when your child starts to show interest in the opposite/same sex? And more importantly WHY WHY WHY?

With my children (I'm sure I'll end up having more than just my baby girl) I'll teach them (from when they're very little) that no matter what they can talk to me about ANYTHING, I would rather if they ever had any kind of problem they could come and talk to me about it rather than hide it and try deal with it alone with the fear they will get into trouble. And when they get to the appropriate age, and start showing interest I will explain about it (As no doubt they will learn things through school, friends, tv etc...) and educate them. I honestly don't think theres really anything you can do once they start to notice the opposite sex and develope the desires to experiment and all, the more you try and stifle it the more they will just try and go against you.

The best thing is to let them develope as they choose, and make sure they're aware of all the aspects. Most importantly to only do something if THEY feel comfortable, not because someone else is pressuring them too, or because they feel that because everyone else is they should too. That it is a gift so to speak, that it shouldn't just be done with anyone, its a special meaningful act that you should do when your ready and have found someone who you truly feel a connection with.

And definatly that "NO means NO" and that they have a right to say it, and stick to it, or if its the other way around and someone says "No" to them that they in turn should respect that persons wishes also. And then also educate them on other things such as protection (Contraceptives, condoms etc) so they are aware and prepared for what may happen and the concequences that can come from it such as pregnancy.

It may sound to some people almost like I would encourage my children which isn't the case at all, I just don't personally beleive in enforcing huge rules and boundaries, as that will only ever cause problems and build a big wall between me and them which is the last thing I want. I mean sure there should be rules and that it's not like I would just let them go off and just have sex, but I think it's more important to have an understanding and connection with your children so they can come to you with anything at any time and talk with you about something and don't feel they have to do something just to rebel, as I've seen a lot of people do things to spite their parents and regret it. From the way I was brought up, and my experiences, and from what I've seen happen to other people thats why I would be that way with my children.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Romeo and Juliet weren't even fifteen yet; and their families' objections to their union had absolutely nothing to do with their ages.









Not exactly! I've taught this play so often I don't even need to see the page here... When Paris is discussing a marriage between himself and Juliet, Juliet's father says that at thirteen, Juliet is too young, and asks Paris to let "two more summers wither in their pride / Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride." Paris objects, saying that there are some in Verona, "younger than she" that "are happy mothers made," but Capulet responds, "And too soon marred are those so early made." Ultimately, the only reason he agrees for Juliet to marry Paris immediately is to get her mind off her grief over Tybalt's death.

This literature moment has been brought to you today by Charles Baudelaire.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

I don't at all encourage my children to wait until they are married, but I don't discourage it either. Right now, my eldest says she wants to wait. That's totally cool with me! But I know that eventually, this will probably fall to the wayside, which is also totally cool with me.

Personally, I don't believe in the whole marital virgin thing at all. But if my daughter has a belief that causes her to be cautious and think things through before she acts, then I'm not going to try to dissuade her from that belief. She'll shed it naturally as she matures.

I've told her that this is her decision, not mine. When she's ready, all she has to do is tell me. We will not be debating the merits of her decision, we'll just be making an appointment to get her the protection she needs.

I trust her to make the decision that's right for her.


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## eowen77 (Aug 10, 2006)

OK...I just skimmed thru some of the posts and figured I'd put in my @ cents as well. ~L~

Sex before marriage - is likely to happen! I am 29...but have a 19 yo nephew, a 16 yo nephew, a 14 yo niece, a 13 yo niece, a 10 yo niece, a 10 yo DD and a 4 yo DS. DO I honestly think they will wait for marriage? NO! In fact both of my nephews have shared the fact that they are active and I have helped them get info and protection. Did I tell their mom - yes. But since she and I basically see the subject the same, and they didn't feel comfortable telling her - I was glad to be of assistance. Would I have still done it if I couldn't tell her {for whatever reason} or she didn't agree with it? YES! I'd rther the boys be safe than not - even if it caused problems between my sister and I.

My mom had 5 children {4 with my dad, and one with my 1st stepdad} and I also have 4 stepsisters {my 2nd stepdad's DDs}. Neither I nor any of my siblings waited until marriage...and since my Mom was PG with my oldest sister when she got married - neither did she. {That was 1968}

My DH {now a Shining Star in Heaven} was born to his parents when his mother was 14 and his siblings were born when she was 15 and 18 {The youngest was from _her_ 2nd marriage}. She got PG with my husband *AT SCHOOL* during her "recess."

MY DD's father obviously can not claim that he believes in no sex before marriage b/c we were NEVER married. He and his wife {met when my DD was 2} had their first DD together before they were married and I believe got married when she was PG with DD #2 or maybe the Feb after she was born?

NONE of us can tell our children that sex before marriage is "wrong" because how hypocritical is that? None of their grandparents can say it either...because they all "did it" as well.

Personally I think that my cousin {older and always like a 2nd Mom to me} explained it the best when I was about 16 and in a relationship with her DS's best friend. We hadn't had sex but she decided it was a good time to "discuss" it with all of us. {MY BF was 15, and so was her DS} She brought home some pamplets she had gotten somewhere that discussed STDs, safe sex, etc and then told us she was willing to provide condoms and things if we decided to have sex. {None of us were at the time...tho eventually BF and I did}. She was very open about the entire thing and gave us a lot to think about.

She said something that I will remember for the rest of my life...and plan on passing on to my own DCs. *"Don't let adults tell you sex is no good unless you're married...it's fun and exciting if you WANT to do it. Telling you it isn't just tends to make you think they are trying to hide something from you. Don't ever let anyone force you to have sex...but if YOU choose to have sex, remember that it will always be better and mean a lot more if you are with someone you truly love and respect...and who loves and respects you."*

I have a sexual history...and probably more of one than some women but less than some other women...but I do not look back at it with regret b/c regret of what has already happened is a waste of time. But what my cousin said has always stuck with me and I can say from experience that she was dead right on it. Being with someone who loves and respects you...and that you love and respect...definitely leads to better, more loving sex.

Beth


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Sex before marriage is fine with me. I'm not married and don't see my partner and I ever getting married; it's just not a big deal to us. I hope my kids will get to experiment (safely) with sex, more than I did . . . I wish I had been with more people before settling down with my partner, and have considered opening up our relationship sometime in the future if I start feeling worse about what I missed.


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## Gabriella (Aug 5, 2006)

I don't see what's the problem with sex before marriage or with sex at all. It's the beautiful of all acts, it's fun, it's amazing, it's natural, before and after marriage.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

My concern isn't with sex before marriage, it's sex before being ready to take on the responsibilities that go along with having sex. I want to be sure my sons are emotionally ready, that their partners are emotionally ready, that they take precautions against disease and avoid pregnancy until they are ready to have children.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I went to a wedding reception this evening for a 16 yo. bride and a 21 yo. groom. (They are going to live with his parents while she finishes her last two years of high school!)

No, she's not pregnant. They are both religious, and I'm making an educated guess that they didn't want to have pre-marital sex, but they wanted sex, so they're getting married.

Quote from my dh: "I would have rented them a hotel room, handed them a box of condoms, and told them........'Don't even THINK about marriage for two more years.'"


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I won't encourage them to wait until "marriage," because they may choose to never marry or they may not be able to marry legally. However, I will encourage them to wait until they are old enough emotionally and practically/financially to care for children. I hope, although I don't know, that being part of an adoptive family will give them a certain perspective on that. I will also encourage them to wait until they are in a long-term committed relationship because it could reduce (though not eliminate) certain health concerns. I hope, although I don't know, that being part of a family with HIV will give them a certain perspective on that. I plan to discuss these things with all my children and make my values known.

Namaste!


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I started my period at 12.. but I had been sexually precocious before that, started masturbating much, much, much younger. I lost my virginity at 17 (5 torturous years) but didn't get married until this past year at 31. I'm trying to imagine having waited almost TWENTY YEARS from onset of sexual maturity to get married and am completely unable to do so. The mind boggles!

Not only that, but the guy I lost my virginity to... well, he was fine, we dated for a year and a half, but he was not for me in the end... nor was he a very good lover. Definitely would've been a marriage doomed for failure! I sure am glad I didn't wind up with him... my perfect person was waiting for me.









As for the idea of "irresponsible pregnancy." That phrase makes me a little bonkers. How about "accidental" or "unplanned?" Not all pregnancies are due to irresponsible behavior. I could debate this literally all day but it is off-topic... however I think it's more than a little insulting to imply that someone who gets pregnant when they don't mean to is irresponsible. Our success at thwarting our biology varies depending on umpteen million factors, IMO.

I have thought a LOT recently about the gap between onset of sexual maturity and the age at which more and more women get in a relationship and have babies... these days more and more women start having babies when I did, at 31, not at 14! More and more women are waiting until they are done with college, fairly settled in career, etc. I hope our biology catches up with us eventually... I guess we only have a few thousand years to wait!









The things I wish had been different about my OWN experience... I wish I had had not only education (which I had plenty of), I wish I had had the self-esteem and confidence to DEMAND condom use every time, which I did not have. I personally feel this is one of the biggest barriers for girls using condoms or other birth control. So there's more to preparing a person than only education, and I hope I can get that right for my kids and they are able to talk to me and be honest with me, whatever THEY decide is right for them. Personally for ME... I would much rather my kids experiment with sex in a safe way then get stuck in a marriage that is not right for them simply because they were horny. I know it was tough for me to think straight when my entire brain was being controlled by my ****! (That doesn't only happen to men. At least, not in my experience!)


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Jessy1019! I actually don't want my kids to wait until marriage, cause I just don't think they should. Like Jessy, I also hope they get to experiment (safely) with sex much more than I did (and I admit that I had alot of partners). I firmly believe that you need to know what you like and want before you commit yourself to a more permanent relationship. Let's admit it: sex is an important (and fun!) part of life, and as long as you know and follow the safeguards, why not enjoy it? Why wait artificially until marriage? It just isn't realistic.
And I just don't want that for my kids. They deserve to have a healthy sex life, and in our family belief system, that happens to include sex before marriage.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

_I started my period at 12.. but I had been sexually precocious before that, started masturbating much, much, much younger. I lost my virginity at 17 (5 torturous years) but didn't get married until this past year at 31. I'm trying to imagine having waited almost TWENTY YEARS from onset of sexual maturity to get married and am completely unable to do so. The mind boggles!_

I started at ten.







It wasn't easy for many reasons. My sisters started in their teens (one was 15 and one 13, IIRC). Our mother had no idea why my moods were so "different" than my sisters had been at ages 10-16.

I wanted to have babies at 14. I was a DD at 11. Nobody took my sexuality seriously (except to ridicule, belittle, or yell), because they had no idea that a preteen could experience those hormones.

My father actually sat down with me one day when I was 15 and we talked about Juliet and how she was 13 when she was looking to marry Romeo...and he actually said it was normal (finally!) to have these feelings. He also said it was important to NOT act on them, which was completely unhelpful.









This thread has really given me much more confidence in my girls' ability to enjoy their sexual natures as they grow. As it is, my 13.5yo has yet to start her cycles, and I wouldn't be surprised if my 10 (almost 11 yo) begins cycling before or at the same time as her older sister.








I am really happy this thread is here.

love, penelope


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Peace.


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## doulatara (Jun 20, 2006)

This thread is really interesting. My dd is 7 now, and perhaps because my life/work revolves around pregnancy and birth, we have already had the sex talk and I consider her to be extremely well informed. Of course, I let her lead on the questions or else I probably wouldn't have brought up the subject just yet, and I definitely try to give age appropriate answers. I also have discussed the fact that not all children are as knowledgable about sex, and not all of their parents are ready to explain it to their kids. We have agreed that it is always best for parents to tell their kids about sex, so she doesn't talk about it to friends of hers. She is also fascinated by childbirth videos- her favorite is the Russian Watrebirth one. (Somewhat OT, I know!)

What I teach my daughter, and will continue to, is to respect her body and other's. Sex has a lot of emotional and physical implications, and I don't believe that younger teens are ready to take on that responsibility. My daughter has met some of my the residents that I work with when I volunteer at AIDScare. She also has met alot of teen moms and pregnant teens I work with.

Instead of teaching her no sex before marriage- I have never been married BTW!...I just try to give her real life examples that sex is about a lot more than just that immediate moment and lust/pleasure. I am trying to build a strong foundation now so that I can feel confident that she is making the right choices for herself for her future. I want my daughter to have a healthy sex life when she is old enough to handle it. Sexual experimentation can be a postive thing in people's lives; it definitely has been in mine. I will continue to educate her about STD's- we have touched on some things but once she is a bit older we will definitely expand on it.

Obviously I don't have all the answers, and I will see how everything turns out when she is older. Maybe I am naive, but I think she will get to a point in her life where she is able to figure out when she is ready to have sex and with who. Personally, I don't think that sex has to go together with love...and honestly I am not ready to have that conversation right now!...but I have never been one to teach sex ed in a way that sex=llove, because that is how I think a lot of girls go wrong. (I'm talking about the way of explaining sex as "When two people are in love...")

Ok, I'll shut up now.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Penelope, I'm sorry you went through that... shucks I'm sorry I went through years of going BONKERS seeking some kind of sexual release. Looking back it's actually pretty amazing that I didn't do something really dangerous over it... I think that had more to do with my own insecurity over my appearance than it did over any *wisdom* on my part. If I coulda younger than 17, I guarantee I woulda! I lost my virginity the first night I "hooked up" with a guy and I was like LET'S GO!!!!














I never felt any regrets whatsoever either.

It's absolutely ignorant to expect that kids don't have sexual feelings. Baby girls are born with all the eggs they will ever have... we are sexual beings from the moment of creation! At least we could tell our kids it's ok to masturbate or something. I would've given ANYTHING in the UNIVERSE for someone to have handed me a vibrator!!!!!!







(Now, I have puh-lenty!!!!)

I respect anyones right to teach their kids whatever they like; but to me, waiting until marriage would've more likely lead me into marriage with someone, anyone, just desperate for the SEX part of it... the marriage would've been secondary and probably unhealthy and probably ended quickly. I'm glad that I did it backwards... jumped into exploring my sexuality and waited to get married until I found THE RIGHT person.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels*
Penelope, I'm sorry you went through that... shucks I'm sorry I went through years of going BONKERS seeking some kind of sexual release. Looking back it's actually pretty amazing that I didn't do something really dangerous over it... I think that had more to do with my own insecurity over my appearance than it did over any *wisdom* on my part. If I coulda younger than 17, I guarantee I woulda! I lost my virginity the first night I "hooked up" with a guy and I was like LET'S GO!!!!














I never felt any regrets whatsoever either.

It's absolutely ignorant to expect that kids don't have sexual feelings. Baby girls are born with all the eggs they will ever have... we are sexual beings from the moment of creation! At least we could tell our kids it's ok to masturbate or something. I would've given ANYTHING in the UNIVERSE for someone to have handed me a vibrator!!!!!!







(Now, I have puh-lenty!!!!)

I respect anyones right to teach their kids whatever they like; but to me, waiting until marriage would've more likely lead me into marriage with someone, anyone, just desperate for the SEX part of it... the marriage would've been secondary and probably unhealthy and probably ended quickly. I'm glad that I did it backwards... jumped into exploring my sexuality and waited to get married until I found THE RIGHT person.










Oh, I hear you! I got called a slut, a whore, you name it, in SIXTH grade, even though I didn't know what t hose words meant...all because of my cleavage.







I clearly remember boys making fun of me in ways that I only understood when I got older ("Come sit on my lap and we'll see what pops up," etc), and if my mother had been honest with me, I'd have been stronger and more prepared. Even though I had two elder sisters, I was constantly taken for the eldest of the family...

A few other homeschooling mothers of daughters here in Fairbanks are planning a celebration for our daughters...in the next three weeks. I'm in charge of the planning, and the celebration is for all the daughters, ranging in age from 7 to 13.5.







I'm excited and a little nervous.

It can be tough to overcome the way I was raised...but I'm trying.









love, penelope


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Prettypixels, don't EVER consider what you did as "doing it backwards" on the sex-before-marriage thing; in my book, you DIDN'T do it backwards...you did it the RIGHT way! I am and always will be a FIRM proponent of the sexual exploration BEFORE marriage and then the waiting until the correct marriage partner comes along. The only difference between the way you did it and the way I did it was that I chose never to get married (and never will). But I am immensely glad that I did the exploring part before settling down. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing! And I have absolutely no regrets.


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

With regards to the OP, it is difficult to answer the questions because they are based in a paradigm of which I do not prescribe. Therefore, I will suffice to say that I will teach my child about love and sex, sometimes they are mutually exclusive and sometimes not; I will talk of different kinds of relationships and negotiation. Perhaps by the time a child of mine can marry, all people will be able to marry but if not, that will be a factor in the conversation too.

I don't place much worth on viriginity, as it's a pretty heterosexist and heteronormative concept.


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## kyangel80 (Oct 5, 2005)

I will encourage my children to wait. Wait until when? That is a relative term to me so to speak. I will share with them all the insight that I have gained, but will keep in mind that being interested in sex is human nature. In fact, I once heard on Paul Harvey that it was the most basic instinct and that people would have sex before they would eat? Having said that, I will also be sharing with my children my personal set of morals, value, and ethics as they grow, and I hope they will strive to develop their own and adhere to them as best they can. I know none of us our perfect, and I certainly don't expect children to be. My goodness full grown adults have trouble following rules and laws, much less expecting teens to.

I do believe that waiting is valuable. But not more valuable than choosing the right mate, or making a commitment and truly sticking to it. I want my children to also understand what marriage means/is. I do believe that the laws about marriage that govern our land really cloud the issue and detract from the sacred vows that I believe you take when you marry.

I will share my personal experiences with sex with my children. I once compared having sex with someone who you do not love with taking a pee, and it had a very profound effect on several of my friends. You can have sex for many different reasons. These are all just personal experiences from which I draw. I do know that the most important thing that I want my children to learn is that there are consequences for every action, and that you should always be willing to pay the price, if called to, for your actions.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Gee, you could cut the heterosexism in here with a knife. Thank you to those of you who acknowledged that none of us know the sexual orientations of our children, that not everyone can legally marry before or after becoming sexually active, and that sex before committing to a partner can help a person decide if the person is a good fit for them. Seriously folks, do you honestly not think that your children could grow up and be of a sexual orientation other than your own?

Oh, and comparing sex without love to taking a pee? I just don't get it?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Peeing is "taking care of business," and so is sex without love.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

I get the peeing analogy.

wow, as for the heterosexual comments.

I started the post off being sexually ambiguous intentionally. And I am also hoping that by the time my kids are old enough to marry, gay lesbian and transgendered couples won't have issues getting married if they choose.

But just like hetero couples, not all gay/lesbian couples even WANT to get married. So the question was posted to the PARENTS of the children to ask what their stance on this is.

Don't know. I just don't get labeling this thread as primarily hetero is relevant. If you wish to bring up gay/lesbian issues feel free! it is MORE than welcome.

But remember, we are talking about people who are being born today and won't be having sex for about 15 years, alot can change in a decade.


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## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Both my dh and I are in total agreement about this topic, and have been since before we were married or had munchkins. I want my kids to wait, not for marriage, but for their own readiness. If he (I have all boys lol) really feels strongly about the person (of either sex), and they feel the same, than that is his decision. But the 'test' I was told as a teen, and I think it still works, is if you do this today, will you be able to talk about it tomorrow. If you aren't comfortable talking to the person about sex, you probably should spend more time getting comfortable. Neither my dh or I waited, he had more partners than I, something we both wish to change, I little more balanced would be ok with both of us. In fact, we were together through my teens, from 15 years on. He was my second, though first that was enjoyable. And I still had very little confidence about my sexuality until ironically, a period of time where we had broken up, and I dated an ex. I learned more about myself then I had before, which ended up being great in the long run. I have already shared some info with my oldest, but since he has shown absolutely no interest and doesn't seem to listen to it, I'm assuming he isn't ready, but he'll have the info when he is and knows he can talk to me. We also aren't pushing college. If it happens to be needed for what he wants, fine, but if not thats ok too. Neither of us have a degree, and yet do very good jobs. My dh is a baker, which makes better money than I ever suspected, and when I work out of the home, I do accounting, with out a degree, and make enough also. So college isn't necissary to support a family.

I did deal with the issues mentioned about teen love. His family was great, they encouraged us, in EVERY way. They considered me the best thing to happen to him (I agree







). My family didn't support us. He was 18, I was 15. Even after my dad liked him, he still was unsure I should be dating at all. My mom just wanted me to date around, not to be serious so young. To this day, he resents some of her judging, that we were to young to know our feelings, that we couldn't really be in love, just lust, on and on. But we moved in together the day after my 18th birthday, started planning a big expensive wedding, then moved it to a small quiet (pregnant) wedding a few years later. And this month it's been 15 years, so guess we knew our selves pretty well.

What always gets me is the assumption that you have to wait to get married till you are finacialy set.I can see waiting on kids, heck, life would have been much easier if that had waited. But why not be married? (if you practice such) Or if not so much the married, but why not settle down? If we'd never had kids, I'd still want to be monogamous with my hubby, and not 'later' when we had money.

The only thing I really regret about my own history is my lack of comfort. Both of us had esteem issues (not sex specific, just completely low self esteem). And though my mom was very open about options for birthcontrol, I learned about diseases at planned parenthood. And didn't learn to be comfortable with my own sexuality really until the last 10 years, and I am glad to have shared that learning with dh, learned together was very good for our marriage, but it wouldn't have been bad to start the relationship closer to that point.


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I can't really place a value on virginity, myself, and don't see it as a "gift" to anyone.

My understanding is that virginity-before-the-wedding-night was valued primarily because it ensured that a girl wouldn't already be pregnant with another man's kid when an old dude had paid her father handsomely to marry her and own her fertility.

I think that background gives rise to our cultural ideas about how girls only have sex to seek "approval" or "love in the wrong places" and definitely shapes our vocabulary about how premarital sex "devalues" a woman.

and:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
It wasn't a matter of stifling sexuality for years on end for the sake of spiritual purity or moral fulfillment, as we seem to interpret it now, and it wasn't a matter of rules for rules' sake-- it was a matter of maintaining property values in a world that considered female virginity prime real estate. LOL.

























Quote:


Originally Posted by *Selu*
I don't place much worth on viriginity, as it's a pretty heterosexist and heteronormative concept.

























I couldn't make any of these points better than you mamas have, and I am not foolhardy enough to try.

This has turned out to be one of the best, most thought-provoking threads I've seen on MDC in a very long time.

alsoSarah


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dawn38*
At our dc's elementary school, they teach sex ed in the 5th grade.







:

Are you irked because you feel that they are starting too late, or too early?

alsoSarah


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

I have talked with my kids about sex being like eating. Food doesn't taste very good when you aren't hungry. You are the ONLY judge of your own appetite. Just as I would never force someone (including myself) to eat when they are not hungry, no one should ever push you to participate in sex. Most everyone will want to have sex at some point in their lives; some older, some younger. Your choice. Safety in sexuality is like making healthy choices in eating - we all need to learn what to do, how to do it responsibly.

To continue the analogy, there are many different foods out there. Just as some people prefer vegetarian versus meat, or spicey versus bland, people are attracted to different partners. Man or woman, safe or adventurous, few or many - there are many possiblities for relationships.

At the risk of stretching the food analogy past the breaking point, I liken casual vs. committed sexual relationships to the difference between a fast food burger and a steak dinner in a fine resturaunt. One can plan for, and savor a great meal, candlelit,with a fine wine. But sometimes some people enjoy a guick greasy cheeseburger. Perhaps not best for a steady, lifetime diet, but not a moral failing. It's OK to have fun!

I could ramble on, but all this talk of food has made me hungry. I'll go have breakfast now: toast with avacado and salsa. Vegetarian and spicey - draw your own conclusions!


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## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Mmarhu, so where would a buffet fit in







:

I have to say, I'm glad I found this thread. Though my own opinions are still as posted, it has been great food for thought and I think will stay in the back of my mind as my boys mature.


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