# If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them?



## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I have a friend who left her ds #1 intact. I ran into her at the grocery store with her son who is now 3 weeks old. He was so fussy and wrapped in a big blanket. She says "ohhh poor guy, he is so grumpy, he got circ'd yesterday". I just shook my head and told her I had to continue shopping. I just can't even stand to look at her knowing what she did to her poor baby.


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

So, she left her first intact but not her second?







:


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I haven't been in that position yet, but I don't think I could stay friends.

-Angela


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I don't. I slowly phase the person out.


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## drnmd1216 (Jan 9, 2004)

well I have two friends that just circ'ed their baby boys. I am pretty sure one thinks she might have made a mistake, bc she has been to the drs a few times already with him bc his penis looked infected to her (and he is 8 days old). She is my really good friend and former college roommate, so I don't think I could just stop being friends with her bc of it. I am very disappointed in her, but I still hold hope that maybe she will be one of those stories where the rest of her children aren't circ'ed. I definately won't hide the facts about how happy I am that we kept Caden whole or about how Dh and I wholeheartedly disagree with circ. for any reason though.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

It is such a difficult thing for some people to handle. How do you balance a decision that is offensive to your sensibilities and the history of friendship you have.

For me, I'd probably have to end a friendship with someone who, after being shown the information, still decided to circ. I have not been in that position but I am speculating that anyone who would do that already has some very different ideas that would interfere with a close friendship anyway.

I do have several mothers in my playgroup that have circ'd their child(ren) and I find that they are people who I have little in common with anyway, so are not people I desire to have any sort of close friendship with. We meet at the playground and our kids play and we talk about very general things - that's it and that is as far as I want to take it.

I feel bad for those of you who have dear long time friends who do this to their boys.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

I would. You may not have changed their views about that, but there will be other times that you may be able to change their opinion about something.
I wouldnt stop being her friend, esp. if I didnt even try to talk to her about it first.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.*
I don't. I slowly phase the person out.

I've done that. I lose all respect for a person who has all the information on why it's wrong and unnecessary and does it anyway.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I totally stopped talking to the woman who had her twins circd despite the information I gave her. My husband wont even invite them over for a BBQ, and always declines invites from them as well.

Screw them....


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

I lose all respect for a person who has all the information on why it's wrong and unnecessary and does it anyway.
Exactly. And I have no reason to be friends with someone I don't respect.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

So, she left her first intact but not her second?
When her 1st son was born they were in Taiwan, so I assume RIC isn't common there.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Let's turn this other way round...if a friend of yours circumcised his/hers daughter, would you stay friends?

For me there is no question. I do not want to have friends who let their children's genitals to be chopped. Well, this isn't a big problem here in Scandinavia since circumcision is not practised. My American BIL let his sons to be circumcised(very typical...he did not even think about it, just signed the paperwork). . Since he is another side of the world I do not have to be friends with him. If and when the question ever rises - I will not hide my opinion. I'm sure he would not hide his opinion if we had circumcised our daughter - his niece.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

For me it would depend on the friend.....I dont think I could have the same level of friendship no matter what since its such an important issue to me.I am sure other things would arise that we would disagree about-lifestyle issues I mean. Motherhood is such a life changing event things like this are bound to make you re-evaluate all things in life. In the end, I would probably "phase" the person out as well like another poster said. I am sure it would be hard to keep my mouth shut about it and how long would that last?


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

I could stay friends with them if we had a lot else in common. Friends are hard to come by and circumcising is a very popular mistake in this country, one that is usually made in a half-drugged and completely exhausted state, and one for which there is a lot of cultural pressure. I couldn't judge someone for believing a pro-circ doctor or clergyman instead of me.

The question I would be more likely to ask is: would they stay friends with me, after I interfered in their private business? There are some people that I gave info to, that went ahead and circ'ed, and now I get the feeling they're not comfortable around me anymore.

I have a friend who had her son circ'ed recently. I don't judge her because I know she had really low self-confidence in her parenting abilities, and her husband, who is a neonatologist, made the decision. Now, I'll make an effort never to have to be in in the same room with her husband again--it disgusts me that a person who knows how painful and unnecessary it is would do that to their child---but she is a sweet person and I like her a lot. I consider her a secondary victim.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

one that is usually made in a half-drugged and completely exhausted state
Her ds got circ'd at 3 weeks old. At the hospital here they will NOT do if after the birth or even before you are discharged from the hospital. You need to wait at least 2 weeks until they will do it.

Quote:

I couldn't judge someone for believing a pro-circ doctor or clergyman instead of me.
No doctors are this hospital are pro-circ. They actually don't even call it circumcision anymore...it is called "genital mutilation procedure".

I just can't help but think about her 2 year old. If she IS pro-circ like she now claims to be but couldn't get him circ'd in taiwan...is this poor little guy going to go under the knife as well??


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

I met a woman that I later found out had circed her son..... The feelings welled up inside me (we live in Canada... it is known to be unnessisary here.... and you have to pay extra for it) . She said that she had read both sides and " didnt care either way"... so they did it?????!!!!!!!! I was so mad. She is now extremely uncomfortable with me.... and vise versa


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Yep.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I could not be friends with anyone who abused there children.


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## MonicaS (Oct 27, 2002)

That happened to me. I lost all respect in the instant I saw that she had done it after keeping him intact for over 2 wks.(DH was adament it would be done, and she didn't want it done at all.) It is DH's cousin. We had become good friends, but we only talk as needed at family functions now. It's hard for me to be friends w/ someone when I have no respect for them.

My bro(and SIL) and I have a very strained relationship b/c they refused to even try to BF, and then they went and circ'd their son(2nd child) on top of it. They had the info, so they knew they had a choice. I can't pretend it didn't happen and play all nicey-nice.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Village, I am in BC as well.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I would. I have a friend with two circed sons, but she regrets it. All of my other friends with boys, have left them intact. I have more of a problem with CIO, not breastfeeding, spanking. I don't know why, I just do. Maybe because during my pregnancy, if we had a boy, we would have circed (we had a girl) but we were going to breastfeed, co-sleep and gd. Since then, I've done research (imagine that) and am convinced we will not circ a son (still working on dh.)


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Speaking of the person I ceased to talk to due to her circ decision, I saw her, her DD and her twin boys at the park today. I waved, but that's about it. I looked at those two boys with tears in my eyes knowing what was done to them...

I cant talk to her...and be civil to her....I'd rip her freeking head off....


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I lose a lot of respect for folks who know better and do it anyway. Typically in the name of "My sweet DH reaaaaally thinks it's important, and I don't want us to fight."

It's such a visceral reaction on my part, but honestly, I'd be equally disgusted if they had their daughters' labia amputated so she'd look "prettier."


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## New Mexico Beach (Mar 13, 2006)

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

My 3 boys are all intact, but I have several friends with circ'd boys. While I don't agree with circ it's not anything I'd ruin a friendship over. I also would never pierce a baby's ears, but I have friends that do.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:

be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.
I'll let some of the more tactful posters of the board handle this comment...

I'm in a very peevish mood right now and might say something that will tick alot of people off...


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mexico Beach*
I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

That's just it; it's not a "personal decision" any more than FGM is. It's a violation of a kid's basic human rights, and someone who knows the facts and chooses to do it anyway has just demonstrated a major lack of character in my book.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

To me it depends on the situation. I know someone who is going to do it if her child is a boy and has displayed an absolutely callous disregard about the whole thing. I guess it's not just that, she has a pretty disgusting attitude about a lot of things and that was just all I could take. She won't speak to me anymore anyway, but that's okay because I don't want anything to do with her.









But someone who's a victim of misinformation, nah. Obviously someone who outright regrets it, I would feel bad for and not hold it against them. But I can see how someone might be unable to process the fact that they made a mistake and be in denial about it. I guess I'd have to make a judgement call one situation at a time. I haven't been faced with anything like this, though.


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm struggling with this right now, as a friend of ours had her baby circ'ed. So far I've put off going to see them because I'm disgusted that she & her husband have the information on why its unnecessary, etc. but did it anyway. I know I respect her opinions on parenting stuff a lot less now.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mexico Beach*
I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

Circumcision isn't a "personal decision" when the person the penis is permanently attached to and will one day be using it sexually has *absolutely no say* in the matter.

Literally carving your personal preferrences into the genital flesh of your child is---IMO---an abuse of parental power and a violation of the child's basic, human right to his whole body baring medical indications for amputative surgery.

Jen


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mexico Beach*
I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.


As other posters have said, it's not a personal decision. I could remain friends (and do) with someone who circs for religious reasons. I don't understand it. I've tried to. I don't. I probably never will. But I don't honestly understand doing ANYTHING for religious reasons. But, if someone had the information (if they didn't and regretted the decision, I could remain friends) and STILL chose to do it for no reason or a misplaced medical reason or to look like daddy or to fit in or because they like it better? Nope. That would be the end of the friendship.

-Angela


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

It depends on whether I _know_ they had good information or not. Now that I have all the facts, I hold myself responsible for sharing that info with expecting friends. If they do it anyway, I want nothing more to do with them. Ever. I have an ex-friend that I tried to inform, and after many e-mails back and forth, he cheerfully told me "Sorry, looks like things aren't going to go your way!" That's it, it was all about me (take a look in the mirror, buddy!) He had his son circumcised- in the hospital- for "religious reasons". He's Catholic.







If I see anyone who remotely resembles him, or hear his name, I feel revolted.

Of course, I have friends who did it before I knew them, and I don't hold it against them at all. I just figure they were uninformed, as was I at one time.


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## cristina63303 (Apr 3, 2006)

Happened to me. It's been over three years and it still haunts me.

She's my best friend and her DS2 and my DS2 were born within 24 hours of each other. We've known each other forever. Have shared so much. We have not stopped being friends. She lives in USA and I in Europe, so we don't get to see each other much.

Boy, now I feel like I need an excuse as to why we're still friends!

I guess I know the social group she moves in. I know her DH is circd. And her DS1 too. And as much as you and I clearly see this as child abuse, as mutilation, as human rights violation, the fact remains that it's socially acceptable so in the mainstream WE are the lacking credibility. It's really unfortunate, but our movement still has its work cut out until more and more people see the light and accept things for what they are.

As pp said, it's a very common mistake in USA

Besides that story, I have two other cases of circ'ers dear to me: my DS1's godmother circed her son ( for the record, this happened after my DS1 was christened) but then it's one of those typical stories: her dad is a doctor and since diabetes runs in her family he convinced her that it was safer to do it so he doesn't get it (ton of crap, I know, but who am I to know more about this than her medical dad?). So again, I can't judge her: she was mislead by an authority who happens to care about her more than anyone else.

The other case is my cousin, a surgeon. We've also always been very close and only recently, on a telcon after an evening of board surfing I asked him whether he thought circ should be done. He said yes because of penis cancer stats! Whatever. My take is that since he was circd, and he had his kids circd some 15 years back, he is not about to now question the whole thing (it's so irrelevant, anyway, just a piece of skin, right???) I'm still trying to figure out how to proceed on that one, but I think my preferred course of action will be to slowly but surely educate my MD cousin and maybe, only maybe have some effect on the advice he may give people on the subject in the future (his field has nothing to do with circ, though, but still).

It really is a tough dilemma.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mexico Beach*
I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

I also would never pierce a baby's ears, but I have friends that do.

Let me clarify. If a man made **A Personal Decision** and got himself circumcised I would have absolutely no problem. Be my guest and surely I would not cut out my friendship with him.

As far as comparing ear piercing to genital cutting...??? Excuse me but I do not understand the logic behind it?

I have a half sister who was born in Santiago de Chile almost 30 years ago. My mom had no idea that in Chile it was a custom to pierce baby girl's ears after she is born. My mom was absolutely furious and got rid of the little ear rings at once. My sister's earlobes healed in few weeks. ( and 2 years ago she actually got her ears pierced).

How on earth can you compare that to what happens in infant circumcision???


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

I have one friend who I can remain friends with b/c I didn't talk to her at the time about circ so it doesn't feel right to me to hold that against her when she may not have known any better. Now my other friend I did speak with her about circ and gave her websites and things to look at and do the research and she never did and then proceeded to circ her son even after me asking her to let her son make that decision for himself. It has been incredibly difficult to deal with her but I have to since we work closely with each other. She has given me pics of him and I can't hardly look at him or keep them out b/c I think of what she put him through. Everytime she brings him up and says 'oh my poor baby ...whatever is wrong at the time' I think and you were fine with cutting his penis off? She will be moving out of state in a few months so that will probably be the end. I can't handle it.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I am now faced with this decision. I have very few close freinds and this woman has two kids, a boy 1 month younger than my girl and a girl that will be one soon. She breastfeeds, is openly supportive of my choice to homeschool and breastfeed, she is a SAHM and obviously well attached to her children. I found out today that her son in circumcised and while I was not mean about it I let her know that to me it's a really hot issue and I am tottaly against it. She made the decision with the knowledge she had at the time but her main reason seem to be fear of infection. Had I known her while she was pregnant and been able to inform her I might feel the need to drop her as a freind but meeting her after the fact, well I don't. She can't change what is allready done. She is hoping to have at least one more child but not for a little while so maybe between now and then I can educate her on the subject.


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## imgr8ful (Feb 25, 2005)

my sister is due any day w/ her first baby - don't know if it's a boy or a girl. i have tried everything to change their minds, but they still plan on circ'ing if it's a boy.







:

i really really hope they are having a girl - i don't know how our relationship will survive if they circ.


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm being faced with this right now and I'm having a really rough time with it. My DH's best friend's wife, who is totally AP, having a natural birth, very crunchy, homeschooled, the whole bit. Her DH is against it, no one in his family is circ'd (he's European) and no one in her family is either! She says it's because she knew *one guy* who had a horrible infection when he was 16 and had to be circ'd then and it was just the worst thing ever. I tried to compare it to my cervical cancer, or breast cancer, or really severe gangrene in limbs...no dice.

Sigh...she's really young and I'm really hoping she'll change her mind when she sees her perfect ds (she's due next week). She's planning to have her ped do it after 2 weeks because supposedly they can have anethesia and heal better once they are 2 weeks old. So maybe once she sees him and cares for him she won't be able to do it. Or I hope her DH can change her mind, or that he just flat out refuses to let her have it done (which is still possible, and DH is trying to gently steer him in that direction).

I really love this woman, and she's one of the few people that understand my crunchiness. So I'm praying she changes her mind.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Personally, I have a much harder time remaining friendly with someone who hits children. Circ is something that many people are ill-informed -- or even mis-informed -- about. Sometimes even by their doctors. Some people make a choice, later educate themselves, and then regret that choice. Having made parenting mistakes myself, I just don't feel judgmental enough to cut those people out of my life. Or, to be honest, even my Jewish friends who have circ'd.

But hitting is something that many parents do repeatedly. They make what I consider to be an immoral choice over and over again. I think that choice shows not just ignorance, but the decision to violate another human being with violence. So that is probably the one AP choice I have most trouble being flexible on with friendships.


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## betsu63 (May 4, 2006)

While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

I'm another one that would stay friends... of course, it depends on the person and what there "reasoning" is. I'm very lucky that the majority of my friends have left their sons intact... No one I know that choose circumcision did so for purely cosmetic reasons, or for social reasons. It was a combination of factors, fears, and myths their doctors did not break.

I blame the doctor's and medical professionals that present circumcision as a viable 'option' and do not educate parents on how normal the foreskin is. That do not explain the risks in real terms or share the function of the foreskin to prospective parents.

I know too many parents that have gone to a medical doctor and asked their opinion on this issue and have not been advised to keep their son intact. Coupled with the myths they know and a few internet searches, they are either overwhelmed by all the conflictining information and opinions that they are faced with-- and choose what is most comfortable with and used to -- or they find their way to a pro-circ area or group and find information that makes that decision look like a medical choice.

It makes me sick, and sad, but I _understand_ why they would be unwilling to do something that they think (and are told) is risky.

I will continue to be friends with them and when the opportunities present, I will try to find out what information they were missing, so that I can try to share more appropriate information with my other friends and people. I won't be afraid to share that my son is intact and that I'm happy with the decision the more and more I learn about this issue. But I wouldn't be purposefully harsh or judgemental, just hoping that something I say might resonate with them and make them look into the issue once more.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone if I felt their choice was thoughtless and careless, but my best friend did circ her son, and she asked me for some information--- what I didn't realize was that after she then started calling all the pediatric urologists in her area to get their opinions. And of course, all of them told her she'd be better off circumcising at birth to avoid problems later. I know a lot more now then I did when I was talking to her.

What am I going to do, tell her she's an idiot for trusting the advice of a specialist? Sorry, should I throw 28 years of friendship away? I don't think so.

I STILL have doubts on this issue... because sometimes it just seems so barbaric that it is impossible to believe that circ happens, and such circ happens all the time, then maybe it must not be so crazy... but sadly, I know that circ is barbaric, I just have to be angry that it is ingrained in our society and find ways to rock the boat.

And you know what sometimes occurs to me when we have people posting on minor problems (and some not so minor) that I think it is sometimes a good thing that only the strongest of us get through this battle, because we have to stand up to doctors misdiagnosing and doctors prematurley retracting, and all the naysayers, and 'diaper rash' episodes that we _think_ are just that, but not sure... because everyone told us to expect infections. Then we hear posts about painful erections, or some pain when adhesions are loosening (and I've gone through this a little with my son) and then there can be doubts.

Sorry to be pessemistic, but those are each many opportunities for one doctor to come in and say, hmmm. circumcision now. And that's one more parent that can say, I left my son intact and he needed to be circed later.

That's a circle of violence that is hard to break- and maybe sometimes it is just as well that some people don't opt to be the change maker.

Just something that occurs to me every now and again, when I'm in a bad mood.

But what is heartening to me is that my best friend, even though she made a different decision, knows enough about the issue that she is likley to present positive information to a pregnant friend of hers... or even tell that person about me. If I had shut her out, I don't think that kind of opportunity would ever present itself.

I do think circ is child abuse, but in most cases, I believe it is the doctors performing and encouraging that have blood on their hands.

Jessica


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsu63*
While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.

Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing *TO* them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing *TO* them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?

If the criteria is whether a decision "affects the child for the rest of [his/her] life," then most of these areas do. Not bfing has significant health effects that last a lifetime. Hitting children has been shown to do significant damage to self-esteem, to cause various behavioral problems and, in too many cases, to lead to horrid abuse. Vaccinations may do irreversible damage.

My point is just that, in every one of these areas which we are all so passionate about, we could decide to end friendships because permanent damage is being done to a child. For me, personally, if I feel the person is otherwise good and moral and a loving parent, ignorance (or genuine disagreement with my moral values) is not going to end an otherwise healthy friendship.

And to answer the question about FGM - yes, I would stay friends with someone who did that, under certain conditions (cultural pressures, lack of education, genuinely loved and thought they were doing the best thing for the child, etc.). I think it behooves us to educate more than to judge and alienate people.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

It would depend upon the friend, but usually I'd maintain the friendship. What I'd do _as a consequence_, however, would depend upon whether or not I had spoken with them about the issue beforehand. If I hadn't, I'd leave it alone for the most part, unless and until they were having another boy (or child of deliberately undermined gender), at which point I'd try to get them properly informed, and convinced of protecting their sons' (or daughters', if I knew anyone who was likely to have their little girls cut as well), genital integrity.

If, however, I'd already tried to accomplish that previously, and they'd had the kid/s cut anyways, then I'd still maintain the friendship _so that I could keep after them about it_.

In short, if _they_ can't handle _my_ actions, let _them_ abandon _their_ friendship towards _me_. What they do doesn't change _my_ committment to _them_ -- which, IMO, includes efforts to keep them on the true and virtuous course in life.

Another advantage of this approach, in my estimation, is how







it tends to force discussion of the issue throughout the general circle of friends. People end up _having_ to talk about it, because if they know whenever we have a group get-together, I'm gonna be on, say, A&B's cases about it off and on throughout, they have to reconcile their committments to principles like inclusivity and so forth. What do they do -- not invite someone because I'm not going to let a mutual friend or friends off the hook? _My_ friends are definitely going to have a conversation at that point about just how justified my behavior is, and I can guarantee you they won't all side against me -- plenty of them 'get it' already.

Let those who know better, but fail to do the right thing, be the ones to choose _ostracization_ and _isolation_ for _themselves_. _I_ won't be the one to _give up_ on _them_.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

My two best friends each had a boy in the last 3 years and I shared my feelings on circ and they know/knew how opposed I am to it. They both circed their respective sons. Do I like it? No. Did it sadden me? Yup. But they are amazing women and I can't define my entire relationship with them based on one thing. I love them, I love their sons, and would never give up my friendships with them over it. Just me.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.

Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes.







: ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't care if someone is ill informed or not, if a foreskin really caused so many problems it wouldn't be there in the first place...... Seeing as though it is there then it obviously has a purpose.It does not take a genius to work that one out....

I refuse to be friends with anyone who circs unnecessarily etc etc etc. Its not just about disagreeing with their so called 'personal choice', its about what they have inflicted, unnecessarily, upon a vulnerable child. I cannot be friends with someone who thinks that circumcision, breastfeeding, ear piercing etc is a personal decision when in fact, it isn't their decision at all, the child has a right too.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Well, I'm not LBM, but I can relate....

Quote:

LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing.
Yes, I have 2 friends that fit this bill, with a few exceptions. Friend #1 asked her doctors and called pediatric urological specialists, and was told information that reinforced her concerns about infections, cancer, etc-- the things listed on the AAP statement. She is an amazing person, mother, a wonderful teacher and child advocate. All she wants to do is stay at home with her son, but she hasn't been able to do that, and she is doing everything she can do to do that as soon as possible.

Friend #2 is a pediatrician and does not cosleep because when she was a resident she attended to an infant that died while cosleeping- and that effected her in a way to say, no never for me. As a pediatrician she supports her parents that choose to cosleep, but says that she wouldn't be able to fall asleep herself with her child. And her resolve was tested with this because dd#1 had 'colic'. So she walked around for hours at night with babe in a sling, because her daughter wouldn't stop crying without the movement of the sling too. But she is an amazing mother and a breastfeeding and pro-intact advocate. Unfortunatly, her dh is not on board on circing and if their child is a boy, they might do it. The conversations were stalled because dc#1 was a girl.

So for her, I still have time to ask her more and question it, but I know that she is not 'horrified' by circumcisions and does not consider them abuse. I think she looks at them like 'elective shots' (and yes, I know that no-vax is an extremely valid choice). She probably sees about 50/50 at her practice and I know she did mention that she sometimes saw circ complications/problems for certain practitioners, but did tell me about one of the doctors she knows that does them-a woman she really likes for her gentle manner with patients (yes, quite contradictory, but she made the point that this doctor is very calming to the babies-- other doctors she knows leaves the boys in the circumstraint alone and go on wiht their business, so the babes are hysterical the whole time).

So maybe I can try to ask her about this more and see if it is still open for discussion.

Unfortunatly, in America it is still considered a parent's right to choose this, as much as we here can hate it, that is the truth.

I think I have to reach out to people and get them to understand this issue before I can condemn them for doing something society considers 'normal'. And it IS like many other issues (FGM, foot binding, other atrocities). There are times when these things are/were acceptable. Unfortunatly, we live IN a time where circumcision is acceptable and it is hard to easily break this down when there are many 'facts' out there that seem to put circ and intactness on equal footing.

The AAP statement is horrible for us to fight. I for one wouldn't expect any momma to take my word/advice over the AAP's weak statement that says there are some medical benefits to circ...

Jessica


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsu63*
While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.

that is what i am curious about, i became friends with a woman at work i have been there 14 years she was a new person, she is total opposite (didn't breastfeed, certainly didn't cosleep) not sure if her son is circed or not. (her son is 10 )
Really not my business, i can't see myself saying hey can't be friends with you unless you fit my criteria here's a list fill it out and get back to me!
I think of what i could be missing out on by not having her in my life! But that's just me


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Of course I would not stop being friends with someone because of that! My best friend has twin boys that are circ'd. We have been friends since we were 4 years old I should stop being her friend over one decsion. That is crazy!


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama*
Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.









: that is exactly my experience. i have been struggling while reading this thread, about exactly how to explain my feelings, and you have summed it up quite clearly.

yes, i feel HORRIBLY for their sons AND for their personal struggles in coming to the decision they made, but it's not worth losing a wonderful friendship over.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes.







: ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.

Well, the first friend was pregnant shortly after my DD was born. I was still "new" to the whole natural scene and not very comfortable discussing it, but I printed out a bunch of stuff for her to read. I don't know that she did read it in detail, but she had said "Look, my other son is, every man I know is, its not a huge thing to me." This mama's son is now nearly three, they co sleep, she is still nursing, and she is a general all around awesome mom.

The second friend wavered, her partner wanted to do it...I think they were leaning towards leaving him intact, when my friend's dad called her. He told her that he (the dad) was intact and had so many issues and trouble that he urged them to circ his grandson. Now, I have no idea WHAT his penis problems were, but it was enough to tip the scales towards circing.

I really do not consider it to be a benchmark of wht kind of person you are. Sorry, but I don't. I plan to leave any and all sons intact and hope that they leave their sons intact and on and on thru the ages. Thats all I can do...

And, I don't have enough AP friends to go weeding them out based on one thing.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bm31*
My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.

Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

This is a tough one! So far we have been lucky and our friends who have had boys have listened, educated themselves, and left their boys intact!!! That is such a relief when it happens as then I know there won't be emotions getting in the way. However, we have a couple that are our very, very close friends and we are 95% certain that when they do have kids and if they do have a boy, they will circ. Even after hearing our information on the subject and having discussions about it, I think they thought our choice to leave our DS intact was weird. I can hope and pray that they change their minds before ever having a boy though. And I think even if they do it, we will probably still be friends. I will be very disappointed and it may take me some time to get over their actions, but I *think* we will still be friends.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

Oh, I forgot to say though, we have chosen to not be friends with someone based on the fact that they were *performing* the circumcisions. Now if any of my other friends take up jobs performing circumcisions in order to make some extra $$$, absolutely I would never in a million years be their friend again. Someone who abuses babies for money I just can't hang with.


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## drnmd1216 (Jan 9, 2004)

Well for my two friends that recently circ'ed their boys...I KNOW that their main reason was bc their dh/boyfriend wanted it done and insisted on it being done. I feel bad...yes even guilty that I couldn't persuade my two friends to be strong enough to vehemently fight their dh/boyfriend for what was right, but I also remember what it was like fighting my dh tooth and nail at first over the circ. issue. We got into major major emotional fights about it bc he felt so strongly for it...and now after a year learning about circ, he knows how wrong his thinking was but its been a long process. Even after our son was born, he said a little part of him still wanted it done and its not until recently that he has become in an intactivist.

No, I won't stop being friends with my them both though bc I don't think either one of them acting maliciously doing so....I feel it was more my fault bc I failed at convincing their dh's it was the wrong thing to do. I know how hard it is to fight against the "well it happened to me and I am perfectly fine and I like being circ'ed" argument. Its definately not a fun place to be trying to reason with that kind of thinking bc you have to convince them that their thinking is wrong, their penis is wrong and that circ. is wrong in general. Yes, it makes perfect sense to you and I bc we have all spent so much time and energy reading it all, watching it all, and talking about it all.

I am jealous of those of you that must have an easy time convincing others not to circ....I think it would be FABULOUS if one day I could show a friend an article about keeping intact and have them choose not to circ!! unfortunately, I have had such a hard time getting through to anyone here. I am right now working on my sister and best friend, who aren't even pg, just bc I feel like once I find out someone is having a boy, its already too late...I just don't have enough time to get deeply enough into it to convince everyone its wrong.

Those of you that would dismiss your friends without a second thought, don't you have hope that you could change their views for subsequent children. These are both my friends' first babies. There seems to be a good number of people here that circ'ed one child and went on to not circ others. I just don't feel its the end for my friends...I will continue to educate them on being intact and its benefits, while mentioning the downfalls of circ and such. I haven't lost all my hope yet for them.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:

My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.

Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...

But doesn't that mean giving up any relationship with your nephew as well? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me, It seems if you ( collective you) were so worried about him in this issue you would to remain in his life, no matter what. My little sister (11 months) isn't breastfeed. There is no reason for herr not to be. I tried for months to convince my dad;s girlfriend to breastfeed her. She completely understands that it is best for her but she doesn't do it. It is maddening. I would never give up my relationship with my sister over it though.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm still confused wy circumcision is called personal choice? Or compared to things like breastfeeding? Don't get me wrong, breast is best for baby, absolutely, and pretty much everybody here in Scandinavia breastfeed eventhough we do not have any 'big movement' or fuss here. But. I do not understand how anyone can compare formula feeding to what is done in circumcision?
As far as hitting, if I knew that my friend was hitting her child I would call to child protective services since anykind of physical violence towards children is forbidden by law.

And still...if a child get swapped to his buttocks, it will not leave the damage that circumcision does(not that I accept hitting, absolutely not).

This is not about judging. This is about my personal choice with whom I want to be friends with. Obviously some one who would do such a horrid thing to a child has so totally different values in life that there is no point. I would not end friendships to make somekind of point. I just don't want to be around people who have so totally different view of life.

Like Kathryn said, it affects to the child rest of his life in horrible ways. Not only has he gone through horrible pain right after he has born but he will never experience sex as nature intended.

Maybe this is a cultural difference - after all Americans have lived with circumcision 100 years where as here it has always been concidered child abuse?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I dunno.... phasing out sounds about right. I lost all respect for my one friend about the purely cosmetic/selfish reasons she gave and haven't talked to her (I wrote an e-mail to her last) in over a month. Soo maybe she ended the friendship for me







I'm not broken-hearted. All my other friends have intact children









maybe she decided to leave him intact though.... as long as I don't know then I can hope, right? She really didn't like being "forced" to admit (for the first time, maybe) that she was choosing to lob off a useful part of her son b/c SHE thinks it's "prettier" that way. Whatever though. Phasing out would have happened in the long run after the circ anyhow... Maybe she doesn't want to be friends with someone whose future sons will have "ugly" penises







I don't want her sleeping with my children anyhow or influencing them to mutilate my future grandchildren either!

love and peace.


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

I tried to save our good friend's son 4.5 years ago. I hadn't done much research on circ at the time so I don't think I made a very persuasive argument. I did try to give them the Fleiss articles when they were visiting and the mom kind of looked them over but that was about it. I found out they circed when we visited when the baby was a week old. The dad seemed to think the whole thing was really funny and make jokes about it for months (he knew how I felt which almost bothered me more than them circing). We did stay friends with them and after a few months they rarely mentioned it. I tried 2 times after the baby was circed to try to convince them to not circ future children (they want 4) but the dad got so mad and defensive that I pretty much lost any credibility with them. The mom was convinced the hospital wouldn't offer it if it was a bad thing and I could tell the dad just wanted it done because he was. He even told me the whole circ was a really neat experience (I think he was blocking a lot of it out). I know for the first month after his son was born he seemed to show some regret because he did almost all the diaper changes. He called it a father/son bonding moment.







Anyway I wound up watching their son when they went to the hospital to have baby #2. Waiting that day to find out the baby's gender was so awful. Every time I changed the little boy's diaper it made me so sad what they would do to the baby if it was a boy. Every time I changed him I'd go cry in the bathroom so he couldn't see. After almost 24 hours they called to say the baby was a girl. It was so emotionally draining for me and I'm really kind of glad we moved away from them. It's not that I can't see why they circed. They are pretty mainstream and the dad seemed unwilling to look at any info on not doing it and the mom seemed to just be going along with him. It's just too hard for me to deal with. They are having baby #3 this summer (also unknown gender- they never find out). I don't even want to hear what they have. I don't even want to think about the torture that little boy will go through just to match his daddy.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apwannabe*
But doesn't that mean giving up any relationship with your nephew as well? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me, It seems if you ( collective you) were so worried about him in this issue you would to remain in his life, no matter what. My little sister (11 months) isn't breastfeed. There is no reason for herr not to be. I tried for months to convince my dad;s girlfriend to breastfeed her. She completely understands that it is best for her but she doesn't do it. It is maddening. I would never give up my relationship with my sister over it though.

I think you have to draw the line somewhere, but it might also help if I put my situation in perspective with some further explanation.

First off, in my case my sister and her family live 900 miles away, them on the east coast and me in the midwest. With the lack of proximity, that probably made it easier to imagine we'd never have a real regular, close relationship. That does not mean that I wasn't looking forward to my first nephew (and now a niece). I take every opportunity to show off their pictures to anyone I can. Regardless of what my sister did, I can't begin to describe how much I love them even though I've never set eyes on them in person. They will be as close to ever having children as I'll probably get, though since then I have become a godfather to the daughter of some good friends and I also love her very much. I see them/her very often and am putting $$ away to see that she will be able to get whatever education she desires in the future.

I was always very close to my sister and she was one of my best friends in the world. Even with the distance, we always talked weekly and managed to see each other on vacations once or twice a year. She was the first one who I revealed my history of the botched circ's I had to. She actually cried about it when I told her, and she's the one who urged me to confront our mother to fill in any missing details that she could. I asked her to never to do such a thing to any sons she might have, and she said it would definitely make her do some research and think about it.

But when my nephew was born about two years later, it was obvious she didn't. She's a very successful and intelligent person, but also somewhat superficial and headstrong and unable to overcome the cultural conformity involved. In the end, she boasted to our other sister that, "There's nothing wrong with my son's penis; he looks like daddy!"







: Yeah, the daddy she complains is "too small and comes too quick, but I love him anyway."

It absolutely made me sick when I saw the pics she emailed to my mother. One of them showed the poor kid with a bloody gauze over his groin area. I felt like she stabbed me right through the heart. I mailed a card and gift, but I was unable to call her after seeing that. I might have even been able to work my way past it, but she called me about three weeks later; I think my mother relayed to her that I was upset with what she did to my nephew. She went on the offensive with it and said, "If you don't like it that *I* had my son circumsized then you don't need to call or write or send any gifts."

I might have been able to find a way to accept it, but there was NO WAY I was going to be bullied by her ultimatum that I *like* what *she* ( she didn't try to blame her dh or anyone else for her choice) did. I just said, "Ok," and hung up on her.

That started a two year silence that only ended last July after my niece was born with a dire heart condition (has had two surgeries, but is progressing well







). She called in tears with a lot of "I'm so sorry's." I told her we shouldn't worry about that for now, that her daughter was what was important right then.

I'm not sure exactly what she was sorry for, but I can only hope she now sees the folly of putting my nephew at needless risk for superficial reasons after all the REAL problems they've had to face with my niece. But I don't know; the topic has not been raised in the last 10 mos. as we've re-established our relationship.

They are coming for a visit at the end of this month. I am SOOO happy to have this chance at a relationship with my nephew and niece. I am counting the days until they arrive; I can hardly wait! However, I am also very apprehensive about the whole thing, but determined not to start a discussion or fight over it. I will leave that up to her; at some point I do expect a sincere apology for how she treated me (and to my nephew someday for what she did without his consent). Until that happens, I don't think we will ever have the relationship we once had.

Sorry so long.







But I just wanted to show it wasn't something that I did lightly or because I was a militant anti-circ that wanted to punish her for disagreeing with me. Regardless of what happens with our relationship, I will put my feelings for what she did aside so that I can be part of my niece and nephew's lives. I can't wait to meet them!!!


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

Those of you that would dismiss your friends without a second thought, don't you have hope that you could change their views for subsequent children.
Without a second thought? Are you kidding? Do you think this is an EASY thing to do?


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I think context and timing are everything. Would I refuse to have someone as a friend because she circed her kids before I met her? No. Three of my really close friends have circed sons - two of them have gone on to leave sons intact in part or in whole because of my advocacy, and the third has three circed boys and is expecting a fourth baby who will be left intact, again in large part because of me. They are all three wonderful mamas who weren't informed and made mistakes.

If any of them had decided once we'd met and once I'd given them info on circ to circ their subsequent boys to match daddy or their brothers....then I think I would have had no choice but to let the friendship go because I just wouldn't feel the same about her any more and wouldn't be able to enjoy her company.

I don't think it's at all worthwhile to argue about which is worse, circ, CIO, hitting kids, or not BF (I'm talking choosing FF for no good reason here, not a failed BF relationship or necessity like cancer or adoption). We have been down that road before. I think all of them are human rights violations and it only pits us against each other when we should be united against these abusive acts.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Breastfeeding was the closest thing I could think of to compare it too. And in a way some of you are right if my friend who circ'd her boys had decided to circ her daughter I wouldn't stay friends with her. I guess because society says circing is ok it is still in my head that is. I need to change that.

Bm31, I can completely see where you are coming from with that story.

I am glad you got your relationship back with your sister and wish you guys the best.


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## teniprice (Oct 7, 2003)

I chose to keep my son intact but I have many friends and family who chose to circ and no, I wouldn't stop being friends with them because of it. Do I agree with it? No. It makes me so sad but I don't have control over their decisions. As long as drs give parents the right to circ then it is a parental decision. I went back and forth during my pregnancy on whether to circ or not because I wasn't informed. Dh is circ'd...and almost every man I knew was. It took a lot to convince dh not to circ but my son is 4.5 and intact. One of my close friends since high school got pg last year (finally after years of trying) and when she found out it was a boy I talked to her about not circ'ing and she listened but a few weeks later she called me to tell me that they had decided to circ. Hers was a religious reason (she's not Jewish but in the Bible when Jesus says "do as I do" and I guess since she felt Jesus had it done that it was what she needed to do. She was very upfront with me that she was concerned that I wouldn't want to be friends with her or that I wouldn't love her little boy because of this decision. They spoke to their pastor, friends who were intact (they also spoke with her dh's friend who is intact but had "issues"). Anyways, I was very, very disappointed when I was told that and walked around wondering if I *could* be friends with her. But you know what? I love her. I prayed for years for that little baby and I was not going to let something out of my control change that. So far he has not had any issues with his circ. He is a precious little boy and there is no way that I could not be in his life. Period. Now had she done it "just because" like some of my other friends and family I would have been more hurt. But they looked at both sides and made the decision they were comfortable with...even if it wasn't the one I would have chosen.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

No. I wouldn't stay friends.

Circ is rare here - if I found out a friend had either her boy or girl circumcised it would be similar to hearing they'd shoved the child's legs through a meat grinder. First of all - it's not going to happen, second of all it would be horrifying.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Well, I already posted that I have stayed friends but hearing thing like this from Caloli:

Quote:

No. I wouldn't stay friends.
Circ is rare here - if I found out a friend had either her boy or girl circumcised it would be similar to hearing they'd shoved the child's legs through a meat grinder. First of all - it's not going to happen, second of all it would be horrifying.
really reminds me of the differences of living where circumcision is accepted (US) and almost every where else.

This was the first realization that I had that tipped the scales-- that circumcision is not the norm in most countries.

FWIW

Jessica


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I'm in the US and it's not common here (NW)... my parents really want us to move to Georgia or S. Carolina, but the circ acceptance is so high there... that would be the hardest part of moving there for me







Then I'd have to deal with losing friends over it more than I have had to so far.

love and peace.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama*
My two best friends each had a boy in the last 3 years and I shared my feelings on circ and they know/knew how opposed I am to it. They both circed their respective sons. Do I like it? No. Did it sadden me? Yup. But they are amazing women and I can't define my entire relationship with them based on one thing. I love them, I love their sons, and would never give up my friendships with them over it. Just me.

I guess I don't understand what's so amazing about a person who, knowing that there is no medical reason, chooses to mutilate her child. To me, this decision is evidence of a fundamental aspect of that person's character. It signifies a person with major boundary issues - a person who thinks his/her child is his/hers to do with as he/she pleases.

I don't grill my friends about whether or not they circumcised their boys. It's come up in conversation and I know that they haven't which makes sense to me because we're very much alike in our views on children as autonomous beings. There are two women I know who circumcised their boys. They manifest those issues in other undesirable aspects of their parenting, as well - excessive control for both and pretty routine spanking for one. I don't wish to be friends with either.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

It's hard enough to forgive family members for circ'ing............no way I'd forgive a friend. (talking about friends who circ'd after all my info given to them, not talking about friends who circ'd before I knew them.) One of the most amazing women I know left her second son intact (because of my advocacy) after circ'ing her first. I think that really deepens a friendship.......realizing that this person is strong enough to stand up to society and do what's right for her son. (It has also really deepened my love and respect for my sister who recently had a baby and left him intact!)

So, for me, not only does it end friendships when people choose to circ, it also deepens friendships when people honor their sons' birthright.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I guess I don't understand what's so amazing about a person who, knowing that there is no medical reason, chooses to mutilate her child. To me, this decision is evidence of a fundamental aspect of that person's character. It signifies a person with major boundary issues - a person who thinks his/her child is his/hers to do with as he/she pleases.

See, I guess this is where I disagree. I do not think that it (the decision to circ) forms the core of my friend's being. She isn't amazing b/c she circed...she's amazing b/c of the million other facets of her personality and soul. I cannot define somene by this one act. And I don't see her having boundary issues with her children either.

I understand that circumcision deeply affects a lot of women on this board. I will never have it done to a child. My son is circed, but it was not my decision, and it still pains me. But I don't think that every person who had a son circed is an evil, control freak, no boundary, person. I just don't. And I don't hate my friends over the status of their sons' penises.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

:


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## Butter (Oct 6, 2004)

Considering all my close IRL friends' sons and my sister's son are circed, yes I stay friends with them. I'd have no friends or only be friends with moms of girls if I didn't stay friends with circing parents. There's a lot of things some of my friends do in their childrearing that I don't agree with or do (and many of them think I'm a bit crazy because of all I do do) but we're not friends because of how we parent. We're friends because we get along well with each other. I don't have to agree with everything they do.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

this is a hard thing. I have a very good friend who circ'ed her first (we didnt know each other then, though) and now is pg with her second. The thing is, she's not finding out the sex, and I have talked to her about circ, she knows how strongly I feel about it, but she tells me she's thinking about it. I know I'll be friends with her either way, because she's my friend and I love her, plus we also have tons of other things in common. It's just hard when you know how much it can hurt a baby


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama*
See, I guess this is where I disagree. I do not think that it (the decision to circ) forms the core of my friend's being. She isn't amazing b/c she circed...she's amazing b/c of the million other facets of her personality and soul. I cannot define somene by this one act. And I don't see her having boundary issues with her children either.

I understand that circumcision deeply affects a lot of women on this board. I will never have it done to a child. My son is circed, but it was not my decision, and it still pains me. But I don't think that every person who had a son circed is an evil, control freak, no boundary, person. I just don't. And I don't hate my friends over the status of their sons' penises.


I totally agree!!!! I have circ'ing friends that are wonderful mothers. I promise you THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE BEST FOR THEIR BABIES. It's misinformation and ignorance, not wanting to hurt their babies.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butter*
Considering all my close IRL friends' sons and my sister's son are circed, yes I stay friends with them. I'd have no friends or only be friends with moms of girls if I didn't stay friends with circing parents.

Seriously. I would have zero friends! And that would be no good


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I totally agree!!!! I have circ'ing friends that are wonderful mothers. I promise you THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE BEST FOR THEIR BABIES. It's misinformation and ignorance, not wanting to hurt their babies.

Doesn't that say something about their thought processes, though? I'm not trying to insult your friends; I'm trying to understand how someone can believe such a thing in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't so. There are people out there making all kinds of dreadful childrearing choices who probably think they're doing the best for their babies, cio and spanking etc, but how can we validate that this is a logical thing to believe? I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster has more credibility than the belief that circumcision is somehow beneficial to an infant.







:


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*
I'm in the US and it's not common here (NW)... my parents really want us to move to Georgia or S. Carolina, but the circ acceptance is so high there... that would be the hardest part of moving there for me







Then I'd have to deal with losing friends over it more than I have had to so far.

love and peace.









Well if you move to South Carolina you'll know at least one family that is extremely anti-circ, mine!!!!!!!

On topic it would be hard to ever think of my friend in the same way again, especially since she/he is my friend they would have all the info about circ (I'd make sure of that). I don't know if I'd quit talking to them all together but we would definitely drift a part. I know I could no longer be close with them.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
Doesn't that say something about their thought processes, though? I'm not trying to insult your friends; I'm trying to understand how someone can believe such a thing in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't so. There are people out there making all kinds of dreadful childrearing choices who probably think they're doing the best for their babies, cio and spanking etc, but how can we validate that this is a logical thing to believe? I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster has more credibility than the belief that circumcision is somehow beneficial to an infant.







:

What overwhelming evidence??? It is only overwhelming if you search through all the mud like the Gilgal society and poorly informed doctors spouting out myths/misinformation.

I understand the frustration, but my point (and others) about my friends is that the 'good' parents that choose circ don't understand the overwhelming evidence against circumcising. My best friend believed some of the hype-- and her doctors are responsible for that. She was concerned about the pain and potential mistakes, as I was. We went through different thought processes that were shaped by many things. I'm very thankful that there were at least 3 people on a mainstream board that shared postitive experiences about leaving sons intact. Not everyone hears even one positive example.

So her though process was that circumcising is done to prevent painful infections, her doctors are telling her that this is true and recommending that she should circumcise. Now, then she further needed to rationalize her concern over the pain. Her doctor assures her that HE is so concerned about this that he does X Y and Z, not all doctors do this. He also has SO much experience and came recommended by so and so. So then maybe she justifies that other people (that choose to leave sons intact) don't have this wonderful doctor that does all this stuff to ensure ds's safety.

This is different than 'I circed my son because I think it is more appealing, and an intact penis is gross'. If my friend said that I would not even phase her out, she would be out, but I don't know anyone (IRL) that is like that, thank goodness.

I'm sorry I always rant on this, but it seems to me to be a very *critical* piece of knowledge in order to be able to approach people effectively. People are not goign to listen to me if I assume they are 'bad' parents because they consider circumcision a valid option. I have to find out how I can present information that reaches them. Or make them suspicious. Or relieve their fears. Or supply alternatives (such as a Bris Shalom if someone is Jewish). Or whatever.

I usually approach each person very individually online. I guess maybe I'd be bolder now that I know more than I did with my friend. One of the lessons I learned from her is that sometimes people do things like call pediatric urologist-- and these doctors see people that have 'problems' and are biased in that way.

Jessica


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1*
What overwhelming evidence???

Well, for me, it's the overwhelming evidence I put into their hands.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

bear with my thought process, I'm tired and just finished cleaning my house!

Ok, so to all those that would end a friendship based on circumcision only. Will you also end a friendship if someone vaccinates? To me, the two are similar. Vacination alters a body, maybe not apparent on the outside, but it screws with your immune system and changes the way a body resonds to disease. Also, they are doing it w/o the child's permission. Vaxxing has the potential for some very serious complications, even death, just like circing.

If you say no, how do you justify it? i am asking this in all sincerity and not at all rudely. I am very curious as to what people think of this.

eta: MDC is my "reward" for working so hard..I need to get a life


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

*cough* Keep it on topic please.....

*looks for PuppyFluffer*

Vax does not = Circ.

Not in my eyes anyway....I vaxed my DD to protect her from whatever my DH brings home from his job...in the military.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

The difference in my eyes is that vaccines have some proven medical benefits as well as risks - and for some children the benefits greatly outweigh the risk.

Circumcision has no proven medical benefits, and lots of risk - and for no children do the non-existant benefits outweigh the risk.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1*
What overwhelming evidence??? It is only overwhelming if you search through all the mud like the Gilgal society and poorly informed doctors spouting out myths/misinformation.

I understand the frustration, but my point (and others) about my friends is that the 'good' parents that choose circ don't understand the overwhelming evidence against circumcising. My best friend believed some of the hype-- and her doctors are responsible for that. She was concerned about the pain and potential mistakes, as I was. We went through different thought processes that were shaped by many things. I'm very thankful that there were at least 3 people on a mainstream board that shared postitive experiences about leaving sons intact. Not everyone hears even one positive example.

So her though process was that circumcising is done to prevent painful infections, her doctors are telling her that this is true and recommending that she should circumcise. Now, then she further needed to rationalize her concern over the pain. Her doctor assures her that HE is so concerned about this that he does X Y and Z, not all doctors do this. He also has SO much experience and came recommended by so and so. So then maybe she justifies that other people (that choose to leave sons intact) don't have this wonderful doctor that does all this stuff to ensure ds's safety.

This is different than 'I circed my son because I think it is more appealing, and an intact penis is gross'. If my friend said that I would not even phase her out, she would be out, but I don't know anyone (IRL) that is like that, thank goodness.

I'm sorry I always rant on this, but it seems to me to be a very *critical* piece of knowledge in order to be able to approach people effectively. People are not goign to listen to me if I assume they are 'bad' parents because they consider circumcision a valid option. I have to find out how I can present information that reaches them. Or make them suspicious. Or relieve their fears. Or supply alternatives (such as a Bris Shalom if someone is Jewish). Or whatever.

I usually approach each person very individually online. I guess maybe I'd be bolder now that I know more than I did with my friend. One of the lessons I learned from her is that sometimes people do things like call pediatric urologist-- and these doctors see people that have 'problems' and are biased in that way.

Jessica

exactly!!! believe me, coming from a country where RIC is unheard of, I could be the least tolerant person regarding circumcision, but I have had so many talks with my american friends, and circumcision is something that has been normalized in their minds their whole lives. They are surrounded by ignorant doctors, heck even the AAP used to recommend it up until a few years ago!! so no, I don't think my friends are bad parents. I do believe they are misinformed, and unfortunately they might harm their babies because of this ignorance, which is why I make it a point to at the very least hand them information, ofcourse I believe that I can't push my anti-circ views down people's throats because I would not like anyone to come and push their beliefs down MY throat. It's like developing countries and formula.. after natural disasters millions of mothers are given free samples of formula, no breastfeeding support and info.. how are they supposed to know, with no education, that their choice to feed their baby that formula could harm their baby? I'm sure they love their kids to death also


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Netty, I think you have a point. Vaccinating isn't as apparently black and white as RIC is though. Also most if not all medical organizations recommend vaxes and that isn't true for RIC.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
*cough* Keep it on topic please.....

*looks for PuppyFluffer*

Vax does not = Circ.


Do ya need a cough drop?







I think I am keeping it on topic, maybe just exploring the topic further. I was asking others for their opinions and if they thought the two were at all similar, not saying unequivocally that the two are the same.

Why ya gotta try to sic the mod on me? (just kidding)


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
Netty, I think you have a point. Vaccinating isn't as apparently black and white as RIC is though. Also most if not all medical organizations recommend vaxes and that isn't true for RIC.

Ahh, I hadn't mentally explored the medical reccomendations ascpect. Thanks for bringing that up.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

You all are making me laugh!









I do think the comparison between vax and RIC is a useful discussion and I think Sheacoby hits in on the head when she states that the medical recommendation aspects make it very different. Vax's do have some proven medical benefit. Now, whether you believe that that is a true "benefit" for your child is a different matter and one for the Vaccination board!

I think once your mind has been opened to the damage of circ in it's physical mental and ethical aspects, it is nearly impossible to see how someone can do it to their baby. That is really the huge divide we are talking about....and whether it is possible or useful or of interest to maintain a relationship with someone you have such a huge divide with. There will be people who will find enough other aspects where they can and do connect that they can bridge this gap. For others, the gap is one which they don't care to bridge and therefore they let the friendship go. I can see how a person can handle the situation in either way.

I have made it a point to not make trusting friendships with people when I am not on the same parenting page. I learn first whether they spank their kids, whether they do CIO etc...and based on that, I share my parenting philosophies. I am fortunate that my few close friends either have no kids or they had their kids before I became educated on the issue of circ. I'm also the youngest child in my family and the last to be having babies so everyone I am close with has already made the decision with what ever info they had at the time.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama*

Ok, so to all those that would end a friendship based on circumcision. Will you also end a friendship if someone vaccinates?

We all have to pick our own battles, our own "Maginot Lines," so to speak. We all decide where to draw the line in the sand, whether or not that line makes any sense to others.

Perhaps we'll also take up the vaccination fight, or perhaps we'll let others fight that battle. Perhaps we'll also strongly advocate for breastfeeding, or let others take up that battle. Perhaps we don't have the energy for other endeavors besides intactivism, or perhaps we don't see them as similar. Perhaps we choose our "line in the sand" based on what speaks to us most personally, what hits us most viscerally, what we find most gut-wrenching. Perhaps if we only had the power to end one human-rights abuse in the world, this would be it.

But it is a logical fallacy to assume that our fight against circumcision is somehow only legitimate (or worthy of ending a friendship over) if we simultaneously carry the cross for other parenting/human rights issues.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:

Do ya need a cough drop?
No, I need to be able to take flippin allergy medications again..*points to siggy* First trimester...seasonal allergies...post nasal drip = Living hell right now...so no amount of cough drop will help.

///also lost my sense of humour somewhere, can you find it for me? thanks..


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Wow . . . .

Of all the threads I've read to date, this one has shocked me the most. For such an ostensibly open-minded group, these judgmental attitudes are really surprising.

I do believe that we have to judge others, to discern how others behave and decide how we will behave. But there seems to be a calculated callousness in the decision to dump a friend over this issue. Almost as if you are punishing the parent for the punishment they are inflicting on their child.

Perhaps, rather than cut ties, you should do everything in your power to embrace this friend and help elevate him/her to your level. No one can become enlightened on their own. Perhaps your very presence in their life will be the model they need to make future parenting decisions.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Of all the threads I've read to date, this one has shocked me the most. For such an ostensibly open-minded group, these judgmental attitudes are really surprising.

Why is it a bad thing to exercise judgment in determining who you wish to befriend?

Quote:

Perhaps, rather than cut ties, you should do everything in your power to embrace this friend and help elevate him/her to your level. No one can become enlightened on their own. Perhaps your very presence in their life will be the model they need to make future parenting decisions.
I think most of us have been fairly clear that we would not cut out friends who made their decisions out of ignorance and were open to growing and changing. The discussion has mainly focused around friends who had the facts and chose to circumcise anyway. There's a big difference between the two. Perhaps you could manage to overlook the mentality that would enable a person to say, "Okay, no medical benefit; painful procedure with known complications; painful healing period and loss of sexual function; elective, cosmetic surgery on my newborn baby for no good reason - yeah, I'm going to do it anyway." To me, that signifies a huge divide, as PuppyFluffer so eloquently put it - a divide that probably isn't traversable. It's the difference between a person who respects children as self-determining beings and a person who views them in some way as chattel. In my experience, that mentality tends to bleed over into other areas of one's parenting.

If that makes me a judgmental cow well, then, moo.


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

I've only read the op and personally I wouldn't cut ties from a friend because of choosing to do something that I disagree w/. I mean, I have friends..family members to be specific...that already choose to do things that I don't agree w/ or think is morally wrong but, that's my opinion. They are free to do what they feel is right and I would never be that person to preach my beliefs down their throats. (I've had that done to me, and it does not work) I absolutely voice my opinion, give information and knowledge, and really try to educate them about the choices they make but in the end..it's up to them. There's only so much you can do or say to someone until they take it upon themselves and do what THEY feel is right. ~You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink~

I went through the subject of circumcison w/ my sister not too long ago that really upset me and had me kind of dwelling on it for a couple days. I had told her that if this baby is a boy (we don't know the sex) then we're NOT circing and she just about fell outta her seat. I explained WHY we are choosing not to and also provided her w/ lots of facts and myths about circing..I wasn't preaching, but I was explaining to her why I felt circing was unneccesary and at the end of the conversation I said to her...(because @ this point she made it very well known that she was for circing)...I said, "If you ever have kids and have a boy I strongly suggest researching about circing.." And she basically cut me off mid sentence and said, "Oh, I'm gonna circ."

So, here is this person (my sister) who has just heard of some facts as to WHY circumcision is totally unneccesary but chooses not to listen to them. Will I say, "Screw you! You're not my sister anymore!" Umm, no. Will I talk to her again? Um, yes. She's my sister. I'll just pitty her and pray to God that if/when she gets pg and has a boy that it will make her WANT to be more openminded and care so much for that dc that she'll do everything in her power to protect that dc rights.


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

For me, Its not a choice. I dont really "choose" my friends. I have pretty bad social anxiety so for me to be introduced to someone and click is rare and important for me to maintain a friendship. Its not something I pick and choose, it has to be "right" for me to pursue it or it will never work based on my anxiety. messed up, but how it is.

If I click with someone, then they get pregnant or whatever and I give them the info and they choose to do it anyway and I am utterly sickened by the thought, which I would be, it is not my CHOICE to stay friends. How can I stay friends with someone who "choice" makes me so uncomfortable? Its a gutteral reaction and not something concious for me. So no, I would not stay friends but I dont think its a concious choice, I would not enjoy my time with them. If that makes me completely judgmental and evil, then so be it. I would NOT be able to have nice feelings for someone who abused their children either. I would have the same gutteral negative repulsion. MOOOO for me too.

I know of some people online I would consider friends who I met and clicked with after they had their children circed. It doesnt hit me the same because I know their reasons and it was ignorance and misinformation, like many parents. I didnt get the info to them in time as I didnt know them yet.

Maybe it sounds hypocritical, but thats my instictual reaction and I wont appologise or sugar coat it. I dont think we really choose our friends anyway... something matches up or it doesnt, and that would be a deal breaker for me if I believe they had all the information. Its not that I would decide to walk away, Id just not be able to look them in the face.

All that being said, I have already convinced my sister not to circ, and my sisters in law will be an upcoming challenge, but I will do my best!!! I dont know how I would feel about my SIL if they ended up doing it anyway, for the time being I am optimistic because they all know my son is intact and I havent gotten any negative reactions from them.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Almost as if you are punishing the parent for the punishment they are inflicting on their child.

This keeps getting brought up by people who say they would not drop a friend over this. And those of us who say that we would, or have, keep saying over and over again that it's not a punishment, it's just that we literally cannot stand to be around them.

Maybe you can't understand it on this particular issue, but try to imagine some act that you consider truly heinous and unforgiveable. Imagine that a friend committed this act. Would you still desire their company?


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*

But it is a logical fallacy to assume that our fight against circumcision is somehow only legitimate (or worthy of ending a friendship over) if we simultaneously carry the cross for other parenting/human rights issues.

I never said one had to be an all or nothing cross carrier. I was genuinly interested in what others thought or did regarding other practices.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
This keeps getting brought up by people who say they would not drop a friend over this. And those of us who say that we would, or have, keep saying over and over again that it's not a punishment, it's just that we literally cannot stand to be around them.

Maybe you can't understand it on this particular issue, but try to imagine some act that you consider truly heinous and unforgiveable. Imagine that a friend committed this act. Would you still desire their company?

See, I totally get this now. I can think of other things that would make me drop a friend. And maybe if I had a friend that was really cold about the circing, or a champion of it, I can see dropping them. I guess the reason I answered no originally is b/c I am thinking of my two best friends, and nothing could make me not love them.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Yeah, why is it that judgment is such a 4-letter word around here? Why is OK to say that hitting kids is wrong, or letting them CIO is wrong, but cutting off the most sensitive part of their bodies - hey, that's a personal choice, DON'T JUDGE ME????

I am 100% against child abuse. I may think that some people honestly don't know better than to (fill in the blank) CIO - hit their kids - shame their kids - circumcise - FF without a damn good reason - whatever. If people DO know better and HAVE had the opportunity to learn the harms of their current choices - then they can go their way, and I can go mine, but we're not going to be able to have a close friendship.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

KEEP IN MIND....the friend I am referring to in my original post and I both live in BC Canada. Circumcision is NOT called that....it is called Genital Mutilation procedure. They will NOT do the surgery for 3 weeks after baby is born so the parent has time to think. To get parents thinking more, they will not circ unless one or both parents is IN the room helping to hold the baby (on the circustraint). You PAY $200 I believe right to the doctor when he/she does it because it is considered a cosmetic procedure. There is a LOT of evidence from myself and her doctor which should have sent red flags for her not to get it done, but she just got it done in order for "it to look nicer". There is no question as to if she got it done because she thought it was the norm. She got it done so her son's penis would LOOK NICER! WTF. So keep that in mind.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant*
To get parents thinking more, they will not circ unless one or both parents is IN the room helping to hold the baby (on the circustraint). You PAY $200 I believe right to the doctor when he/she does it because it is considered a cosmetic procedure.


If they really wanted the parents to "think" about it, they would refuse to do it altogether.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
If they really wanted the parents to "think" about it, they would refuse to do it altogether.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It is simply rank hypocrisy to call it "genital mutilation procedure" but perform it anyway. If they really believe it is genital mutilation then it is their ethical obligation not to perform it.

Babygrant, your friend is a twit, but the doctors who did this to her son are the lowest of the low. Claiming that "we had no choice, the parents forced us to do it" is about as ethically sound as the defense of, say, prison guards in concentration camps or American soldiers at My Lai. Soldiers -- and doctors, IMO -- are legally and ethically bound not to obey unethical orders.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
No, I need to be able to take flippin allergy medications again..*points to siggy* First trimester...seasonal allergies...post nasal drip = Living hell right now...so no amount of cough drop will help.

///also lost my sense of humour somewhere, can you find it for me? thanks..

OT, but I just started taking nettles for my allergies. It doesn't make a huge difference, like allergy meds, but it definitely helps enough that I have a sense of smell again!

And nettles are very nutrient dense, very good for pregnant bodies.







I got loose nettles and have been making tea. My MIL takes tincture. Maybe tincture is stronger, not sure. THey don't have tincture around here. If you can find it, try both.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I would have a very hard time being friends w/ someone who circ'd if I had spent a lot of time trying to talk them out of it. However, most of my friends who have boys, their boys are circ'd, at least here in the Midwest. My best friend says she did no research at all, her dh wanted it done, she made him take charge of it. He actually circ'd their first son, wasn't allowed by the hospital to do their 2nd. Now that she knows better, she says if she has any more boys, they will not be circ'd.

However, this does not extend to my Jewish friends. I obviously do not agree, but I understand the enormous pressure they feel to circ. Not everyone even wants to go against that kind of pressure, let alone has the courage to do it, even if they do want to.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*

Maybe you can't understand it on this particular issue, but try to imagine some act that you consider truly heinous and unforgiveable. Imagine that a friend committed this act. Would you still desire their company?

I actually did think hard about this before I stepped into this discussion. In fact, I typed and deleted and typed and deleted until almost midnight, trying hard to focus my feelings.

My best friend had an abortion, an abortion of convenience. I don't have words to describe how wrong I find this. But I can't force my morality on anyone else, and I can't discard a friend because we don't agree on every issue, even the big ones. I love her. I love her even though I think she did a terrible thing. That's what being a friend is. That's what unconditional love is.

Of course we do have to judge others merely to survive in the world. When you make the decision not to get in the elevator because a big, scary looking man is already in there, you judged him not to be safe. That's a necessary step we take every day.

But when others judge me, I hope they are also capable of forgiving me.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
But I can't force my morality on anyone else, and I can't discard a friend because we don't agree on every issue, even the big ones.


You made the right decision for YOU when you kept her as a friend. That's what you've decided works for you, and that's great. Similarly, the rest of us have to make choices about friends based on what works for us, as well. For a lot of us on this board, that means ending friendships based on this issue. And I agree with Stella, that it is a visceral feeling more than a conscious choice. A lot of times, I think it is most difficult to see the child of that friend, knowing that you were powerless to stop his infant rape.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Infant rape. Wow.

Do you get extra points for using hurtful words like that? I saw The Vagina Monologues and I don't remember her taking such pains to wrap her words in as much ugliness as possible.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

I find it harder & hard to be close with people that circ. I just feel that strongly against it. I'm the same way with a few other issues as well.
So there may be a few things in commons but I really need to connect on my core values


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

These are ugly words, but circumcision is an ugly act. What else can you possibly call it when a baby is strapped down and part of his penis is sliced away without his consent? How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will? How is it any different than a girl being pinned down by her female relatives as a barber slices away her clitoris? The setting may be different, but the act is the same. It is the violation of another human being's body. It is violent. It is non-consensual. It involves his sex organs.

It is only when we call circumcision what it is -- assault and battery against a baby's genitals -- that we can stop the whitewash and the veil of ignorance that society draws around this heinous act.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
These are ugly words, but circumcision is an ugly act. What else can you possibly call it when a baby is strapped down and part of his penis is sliced away without his consent? How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will? How is it any different than a girl being pinned down by her female relatives as a barber slices away her clitoris? The setting may be different, but the act is the same. It is the violation of another human being's body. It is violent. It is non-consensual. It involves his sex organs.

It is only when we call circumcision what it is -- assault and battery against a baby's genitals -- that we can stop the whitewash and the veil of ignorance that society draws around this heinous act.

So good, it needs to be repeated.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Infant rape. Wow.

The quote in my sig says it all. (Even though I've never seen The Vagina Monologues.) Breaking through taboos, and calling things what they really are, is terrifying but crucial.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will?

One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum titled, "Did you circumcise your son and regret it?"

You may find some peace and solace there. Many, many other women on that thread have been in your shoes.....they trusted the so-called "experts." Get mad. Get mad at those doctors for what they told you and what they did to your son. Then turn your anger into action. (Marilyn Milos, the founder of NoCirc, had her own sons circ'd before she learned what a heinous act it is. Now she has saved lots of babies through her work!)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

The act was still one of violence. Your child suffered the same violation, regardless of your intent.

I'd say, though, that you were victimized, as well, by people who should have known better and advised you wrongly based on out-of-date, false information.

I'm sorry for your experience and I'm sorry for your child's experience.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

My sister knew she was having a boy, did lots of research, and still circumcised my nephew. She was against it, but my BIL (dad) was for it. It was a trade off for a decision that was important to her (baptising in the Catholic Church). I found that very odd and upsetting. I still cringe when I change my nephew's diapers. But my sister is my sister and my best friend. I'll always love her. She'll always be my friend.

Luckily, her second and last baby was a girl!


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

Unfortunately, intent is not all that matters.

Do you think that the mothers in Africa who hold their daughters down for the barber's blade do so because they want to hurt their daughters? No. It's because they believe that it's cleaner, they're preventing disease, it's harmless, etc. Hanny Lightfoot-Klein, the pioneering researcher on female genital mutilation in Africa, points out the similarities in attitudes towards FGM in Africa and routine infant circumcision in America here. Women who circumcise their daughters intend nothing but the best for them - and yet we do not hesitate to name this harm for what it is.

Also, there are many rapes that occur when the man honestly -- but mistakenly -- believes the woman has consented. He may not intend to rape but he does thinking that the woman has agreed to sex.

I am very sorry if you were misled and/or lied to you by your friends, family, acquaintances, and doctors. The truth is that no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision to prevent any disease - not cancer, not UTIs, not HIV, not any STD. Nothing. The AAP statement on routine infant circumcision calls it "non-therapeutic" i.e. cosmetic. Mothering has an excellent set of well-researched, well-documented articles on circumcision. If a doctor told you circumcision prevents cancer - well, he or she was egregiously misinformed. I and most others here hold doctors and other medical professionals as the truly guilty parties in the circumcision of over a million baby boys in this country every year.

If you read my previous posts in this thread, you will know that I have good friends who circed their older son(s) but left or will leave their younger sons intact. When you know better, you do better. When you know better but you circ a second son - well, then, that's where I draw the line. Two wrongs never make a right.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Doesn't $200 seem oddly cheap for optional cosmetic surgery? My sister is about to have laser hair removal for her armpits and that's $750! If they are going to do it and charge (as some way of saying they don't "support" it), they should make it some wild fee. Everything else medical is wildly expensive. The tylenol I had after John was born was about $40! Maybe a circumcision should be more like $10,000. But - no - then it would become some messed up status symbol. Oh, I know - maybe they should only do it if you are on state assistance and then no one would want it! So pathetic!


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant*
Village, I am in BC as well.

Me too!!
That's hard, it's not right to circ, but I would be upset they got their boy circ.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheBrink*
Doesn't $200 seem oddly cheap for optional cosmetic surgery? My sister is about to have laser hair removal for her armpits and that's $750! If they are going to do it and charge (as some way of saying they don't "support" it), they should make it some wild fee. Everything else medical is wildly expensive. The tylenol I had after John was born was about $40! Maybe a circumcision should be more like $10,000. But - no - then it would become some messed up status symbol. Oh, I know - maybe they should only do it if you are on state assistance and then no one would want it! So pathetic!

That's because they sell the foreskins to cosmetic and biotech companies and make back their "loss"


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I would not have a problem staying friends with someone who chose to circ for religious reasons.

But ppl who choose RIC for their children? Not so much. I tend to be pretty judgmental, and assume people are stupid if they circ their boys.

I can sympathize with not knowing the options, but nobody I know would have to make the choice without hearing the pro-intact side of the argument.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
That's because they sell the foreskins to cosmetic and biotech companies and make back their "loss"

Still seems like they could charge much more. Aren't they all about making tons?

Anyway - I agree - It's not about charging for it. It's that it should be illegal. It shouldn't be an available choice. I wonder if I could pay to have my newborn's earlobe cut off just because?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.

Oh - so true! And so sad!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.

Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.

Yeah, and what does a birth cost out of pocket - in the neighborhood of $3000? So a doc can make 10% of the fee for the entire pregnancy and delivery in about 15 minutes.









What I think needs to happen is some MAJOR lawsuits for failure to get informed consent that would drive up the cost of liability insurance. If ob/gyns had to pay through the nose for liability insurance for circs, you can bet they'd stop doing them right quick.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.

Wowsers - are they that fast? Do they do all the boys in one room? That's freaky!


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

i do think that they have all the boys in one room. just line them up and do each one and the nurses prep and clean up.


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## Christi (Nov 21, 2001)

Deciding to circ doen't mean that the parents are bad parents. I would wait and see if they are mean, completely irresponsible people. who have no judgement whatsoever then I would consider ending a friendship. Not on the sole basis of circumsision. That's harsh IMHO


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I think the flip side of this discussion is that it's our responsibility to inform our friends and acquaintances. If we hold back because of shyness or embarrassment at bringing the subject up - well, then, we're partly culpable for not doing something to pierce the veil of secrecy and ignorance that surrounds circumcision.

Maybe this goes without saying to this crowd. It wouldn't be right to cut someone out of my life if I hadn't given her everything necessary to make the right decision. (And yes, for me, there is only one right decision - not to circumcise. That's the only decision that's right for the baby, whose body it is.)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Christi*
Deciding to circ doen't mean that the parents are bad parents. I would wait and see if they are mean, completely irresponsible people. who have no judgement whatsoever then I would consider ending a friendship. Not on the sole basis of circumsision. That's harsh IMHO

I guess I'm harsh. I think deciding to circumcise, after being informed of the facts, is both mean and completely irresponsible.

I also couldn't be good friends with someone who hit their children.

Both show lack of respect for and sub-human treatment of children. And, again, I think being able to do that is evidence of a huge divide between my life choices and theirs. Some divides are traversable. For example, I can be friends with smokers even though I think smoking is dangerous and irresponsible (though I don't want them smoking around me). I can be friends with people who have different politics. People who think it's okay to treat their children as chattel, I just can't.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheBrink*
Wowsers - are they that fast? Do they do all the boys in one room? That's freaky!

Yeah, they line them up on as many circumstrainst as they have. The doctor usually gets them all clamped (if they're using the gomco), then goes back to the first baby and finishes up one by one and the nurses do the unstrapping, cleaning, and bandaging.


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## SCC703 (Apr 23, 2006)

You would really not want to be friends with someone just because you believe in 2 different things?? Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? That's absurd to not want to be friends with someone over that... this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it. That doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. Maybe you think its wrong, but some people things it's right and you can't judge someone just because of their beliefs. My gosh some people are so petty. I wouldn't want you to be my friend anyways


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom*
He had his son circumcised- in the hospital- for "religious reasons". He's Catholic.







If I see anyone who remotely resembles him, or hear his name, I feel revolted.

This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.































Yep. Catholics Against Circumcision explains how circumcision is against the moral law.

Quote:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly
intended amputations, mutilations and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against moral law" (N. 2297)


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SCC703*
You would really not want to be friends with someone just because you believe in 2 different things?? Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? That's absurd to not want to be friends with someone over that... this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it. That doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. Maybe you think its wrong, but some people things it's right and you can't judge someone just because of their beliefs. My gosh some people are so petty. I wouldn't want you to be my friend anyways

Tell you what, read through this website: www.oknocirc.blogspot.com and then if you're still not convinced watch this video www.intact.ca and then see whether your opinion is changed.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.









You're right. At first I gave him general why-intact-is-better info. I kept telling him I was here with answers to any concerns he had, if he would just let me know where his head was at. He made some vague reference to his religion, and I told him that I was delighted to inform him that he was not obligated to circ his son, that in fact he should not! I came here and gathered all manner of references to prove that to him.

Awhile later he responded that he had consulted 3 doctors, one a urologist who told them it was "better to have it done now than later". (Nevermind the fact that I had told him to be wary of doctors, and sent him the Doctors Opposing Circumcision link.) He also said he had talked to his priest. He told me "My religion does prefer that the males be circumcised." WTF? A case of the PRIEST not being up on his own religion? I don't know, but I knew at that point it was a lost cause.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

SCC703, I understand how someone unfamiliar with this controversy- someone who might not even know there IS a controversy- might take that view. I urge you to read, read, read on this issue, here in the forum! Many of us were similarly ignorant at one time. But now that we understand circumcision thoroughly, we are vehemently opposed to it. Just because something has been done for a long time, to millions of helpless babies, does not make it OK. It's so not OK.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.

















: My thoughts exactly. You did the best you could. Some people just have their mind set and there's no changing it.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

JMHO, I can't condone circ'ing for ANY reason.
I feel that strongly about it that, yes, it's hard for me to continue a DEEP friendship b/c it IS a core value for me.
May sound harsh as pps mentioned but not for me.
We all have our limits on certain issues.

an FYI - tread lightly on the religious issues here.


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## Paper-Bag-Princess (Aug 26, 2005)

As for the op's question: Yes, I have stopped a friendship with someone who was given all of the info. and went ahead and circ'd her second son anyway, because she was nervous about pissing of the daddy. To top it off, her first son was a preemie (born at 31 weeks or so), was hooked up to every machine imaginable to keep him alive, and she said she left the decision to her husband because he has a penis (his son's penis is not his







). Well, when she was talking to one of his many nurses, she asked when circ could be done. The nurse tore her a new one and asked why she would want to do something like that after all her son has been through. This woman (n.l.a.f) was mad that the nurse talked to her that way and actually had the cajones to complain that the nurse was 'not nice to her'







:

So fast forward, I meet this person and she tells me this story and then, after giving her as much info. as I possibly could she tells me she doesn't want her boys to be different, and besides, she doesn't have a penis and thinks her dh should decide. Well, guess what? They did it to another boy because her freaking husband is too insecure to let this little baby be, doesn't want him to be different, doesn't want him to be made fun of, etc. Excuse after lame excuse.

Do I miss her as a friend? Hell no. My mamma bear instinct was in full force and there was no way, on God's green earth, that my dh & I would ever consent to circ. (unless absolutely medically necessary).I cannot understand wtf happened to her instincts and when I saw that little boy for the first time (hers), I felt nothing but sad that he was a victim to his father's vanities and insecurities and that she did NOTHING, after being informed about circ., to protect her child because she didn't want to upset her dh's frail ego.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.









Thanks, y'all.







I appreciate it. I was devastated. Yeah, he could have been lying. I just thought there was hope because when I first brought it up, he said they hadn't decided and were still researching, but would take it very seriously. He works for some kind of urological company, I am pretty sure they do research using foreskins. So that right there tells you something.

polka, I don't think it's a problem to talk about religion when people mistakenly think it is called for but isn't, is it? It's not condemning anyone's religious practices when they're wrong about the religion requiring it, I think. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I agree that I wouldn't stop being friends with a Jewish (or any other religion...) mama who felt that she had to circ for religious reasons. There's so much pressure there...

And I can understand that if I had a friend who was told by everyone that it was medically necessary and really couldn't figure out which info was real and whatnot then I could stay friends. BUT it's the "but it's prettier/I think intact penises are weird-looking" argument that gets me. My former friend admitted that she DOESN'T CARE that it's not medically necessary or even recommended. She wants to do it so she can look at her son's pretty penis and so he "will get laid a lot in high school". I informed her that my dh got "laid a lot in high school" by me and he's intact, but she informed me that her son will be the social outcast of the century if he's not mutilated.

She had all the info. Cosmetic surgery for cosmetic surgery's sake on a non-consenting child/infant is wrong. Why doesn't she give him a nose job as well to make sure his nose is "pretty" enough for him to get laid? She might just consider doing that too







Once someone has said that they don't care about the numerous terrible aspects of circ because it's just so much "prettier", I no longer have ANY respect for that person.

If someone was making other decisions that were harmful to her child and made them in that way I would stop respecting them and thus have to stop spending as much time with them...

This is what she said (though not in so many words):
*I know there are bad side effects and that it's unnecessary, but I just LOVE to look at circ'd penises so I'll mutilate my son.

other examples of attitudes toward childrearing that would lose my respect (equal to my "friend's" attitude to circ in my opinion):
*I know that it is bad for my child, but I just LOVE to hear babies scream so I'll let my son CIO all night long!

*I know there are toxic substances in vaxes and that they don't do any good, but those track marks are SO adorable!

*Spanking is a human rights violation, but I think it's fun and much easier than actually trying to teach my child right from wrong (or safe from dangerous) without violence.

It's the admitting that they know it's not good for the child except cosmetically that really gets me. Admitting that it's only because THE PARENTS think it's nicer looking and that because "he won't remember it" that it'll all be just hunky dorey burns me up.

If a parent circ'd before knowing any better, that's cool. If a parent really believed their doctor over me, I think I could understand. BUT someone choosing something painful and irreversible that they agree is unnecessary for purely cosmetic reasons is unconscionable.

sorry for being so long-winded and I hope that all makes sense... Thank you, Quirky for stating what MGM is in such graphic terms. It truly is infant rape and it is the doctors and medical community that are most at fault.

love and peace.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
That's just it; it's not a "personal decision" any more than FGM is. It's a violation of a kid's basic human rights, and someone who knows the facts and chooses to do it anyway has just demonstrated a major lack of character in my book.

WELL SAID. WELL SAID.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Infant rape. Wow.

Do you get extra points for using hurtful words like that? I saw The Vagina Monologues and I don't remember her taking such pains to wrap her words in as much ugliness as possible.

Uh... "infant rape"? Yeah. Yeah, I would say it's a sexual assault on a person, in this case, an infant male. The (web) site title SexuallyMutilatedChild (.org) sums it very well. Being sexually mutilated is being raped. That's how I see it. No "sorries" from me based on my feeling and if you disagree w/ it ("sorry, but that how's I see it...").


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

Yeah, but a sick person who goes around molesting children could sincerely think he/she is "loving" the kid... that doesn't make them any less of a child molester or the act heinous act they're doing right.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.









The CatholicsAgainstCircumcision.org will tell you it's not a valid reason (to circ) based on being Catholic. Jesus died on a cross. Is this what you want to happen to your son to "be like him"? Besides, I thought Jesus was circumcised and was sacrificed so WE don't have to do what Jesus did!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheBrink*
Still seems like they could charge much more. Aren't they all about making tons?

Anyway - I agree - It's not about charging for it. It's that it should be illegal. It shouldn't be an available choice. I wonder if I could pay to have my newborn's earlobe cut off just because?

Part of it is that that $200.00 is Canadian dollars which are different than American dollars in value. Maybe some one can give the equivalent in American dollars. The average cost of a circumcision in America is about $350.00 and I have recently seen reports of it costing as much as $700.00. When you figure the time it takes, especially if they are doing more than one, that is an outrageous charge on an hourly basis. If they are doing two or more, it could amount to more than $3,000.00 per hour! That's just obscene!

Frank


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SCC703*
You Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it.

Exactly how it is right to take a newborn baby and rip off the most sensitive part of his genitals? I'm sorry but I just don't understand how can that be right? Care to explain?

Just because it is an old practise we should accept it? Well, wellcome back foot binding in China, let's allow FGM - or what about those stupid laws here in Scandinavia forbidding physical violence towards children - heck, children have been beaten for centuries, so it must be right? And why fight against child-labour, another practise that is very old. I could go on and on.

Children are human beings. They should have human rights. What is done to little babies in circumcision would get you punished by law in western countries if you did the same to a dog. <<shudder>>


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Part of it is that that $200.00 is Canadian dollars which are different than American dollars in value. Maybe some one can give the equivalent in American dollars. The average cost of a circumcision in America is about $350.00 and I have recently seen reports of it costing as much as $700.00. When you figure the time it takes, especially if they are doing more than one, that is an outrageous charge on an hourly basis. If they are doing two or more, it could amount to more than $3,000.00 per hour! That's just obscene!

Frank

Frank: The cheaper they keep it out of pocket means the more people who can afford it, even in the lower income bracket, therefore more foreskins for them to sell to the biotech companies.

Since no insurance, public or private covers it up here, they have to draw in QUANTITY, and that means offering lower prices. Hell, here my "family dr" offers Routine Male Genital Mutilation for only $120. Yes... $120 Where my friend had her child up in Thunder Bay Ontario, $50. The price varies with how much the base population makes.

But trust me, they make the money, and then some, through the wonderful assembly line...

I stopped going to my family Dr down in Hamilton Ontario...Dr (name removed due as per requested). He advertises in the phone book that he does RIC and Vaesectomies. Sitting in the waiting room on Tuesday Mornings, where all these little newborn babies were sitting in their bucket seats...a good 2/3 of them male infants....Nurse calls in about 4 or 5....then sends the mommas out.

once the screaming begun, mabe 3 moms got up and left with their buckets...the rest resolutely sat there...downcast and shaking...but "forcing" themselves to go through with it? I dunno..but I had to just choose to go without a family Dr after that day.....


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap*
The CatholicsAgainstCircumcision.org will tell you it's not a valid reason (to circ) based on being Catholic. Jesus died on a cross. Is this what you want to happen to your son to "be like him"? Besides, I thought Jesus was circumcised and was sacrificed so WE don't have to do what Jesus did!

I am not sure I am understanding what you are saying. By quoting me, are you agreeing, or disagreeing?







:


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acksiom*
And how _ironic_ that is, when one considers the personal attacks, harassment, blatantly deliberate misrepresentation, efforts towards censorship, bigoted hate speech, and just all around general nastiness and denial I've been targeted with simply for breaking through the taboos about calling Ensler's own work what it really is: male-bashing female supremacist victimization chauvanism.

To say nothing of how it attempts to not just merely _excuse_, but actually _normalize_, _*homosexual pedophilia.*_


I've never actually seen Ensler's performance, so I can't agree or disagree with what you've said about her. But I read an essay she wrote about the power of language, and that's where I took the quote from. And it seems to really fit, even though it well may be ironic.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Part of it is that that $200.00 is Canadian dollars which are different than American dollars in value. Maybe some one can give the equivalent in American dollars. The average cost of a circumcision in America is about $350.00 and I have recently seen reports of it costing as much as $700.00.

It was $200 USD when ds was born, but that was 5.5 years ago. (I was charged for it even though I didn't have it done.







)

Any amount is obscene, but I'd like to see the price skyrocket and Medicaid in *every* state cease to cover it. That, alone, would probably save a lot of little boys from being mutilated. Of course, it could also backfire and, as someone else said, make it a "status" thing.







:


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

*


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
I stopped going to my family Dr down in Hamilton Ontario...Dr Peter Loveless. He advertises in the phone book that he does RIC and Vaesectomies. Sitting in the waiting room on Tuesday Mornings, where all these little newborn babies were sitting in their bucket seats...a good 2/3 of them male infants....Nurse calls in about 4 or 5....then sends the mommas out.

once the screaming begun, mabe 3 moms got up and left with their buckets...the rest resolutely sat there...downcast and shaking...but "forcing" themselves to go through with it? I dunno..but I had to just choose to go without a family Dr after that day.....

That is just horrific. I don't think I could have been quiet about it.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Frank: The cheaper they keep it out of pocket means the more people who can afford it, even in the lower income bracket, therefore more foreskins for them to sell to the biotech companies.

Since no insurance, public or private covers it up here, they have to draw in QUANTITY, and that means offering lower prices. Hell, here my "family dr" offers Routine Male Genital Mutilation for only $120. Yes... $120 Where my friend had her child up in Thunder Bay Ontario, $50. The price varies with how much the base population makes.

But trust me, they make the money, and then some, through the wonderful assembly line...

I stopped going to my family Dr down in Hamilton Ontario. He advertises in the phone book that he does RIC and Vaesectomies. Sitting in the waiting room on Tuesday Mornings, where all these little n

Ugh I liewborn babies were sitting in their bucket seats...a good 2/3 of them male infants....Nurse calls in about 4 or 5....then sends the mommas out.

once the screaming begun, mabe 3 moms got up and left with their buckets...the rest resolutely sat there...downcast and shaking...but "forcing" themselves to go through with it? I dunno..but I had to just choose to go without a family Dr after that day.....

\

Ugh. I live in Hamilton, and I will make sure if anyone is looking for a doctor, I will recommend against this guy.

My family doctor has a practise with 6 or so other doctors and none of them perform circ themselves.

200 Canadian dollars equals 181 American dollars at the moment.

I have seen circ cost as much as 400 CDN, I am surprised that yo can get it done for so much lower.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread. Circ is a really upsetting topic for me








I dunno, I had ds circ'ed. I *thought* I had info on it, but really I had no clue. Everything I read said it was a personal decision, no right answer, no real risks or benefits either way. (puke puke) I let dp decide, but he was just as uninformed as I was- maybe even more so, being that he is circ'ed himself.
I regret it more than anything else I've done as a parent so far. And there is no way in he!! that we'd circ any future sons. (dp is now definitely on the "circ is bad" side now)
I'd hate to imagine someone refusing to be my friend because I made a huge mistake, that can never be fixed.

BUT...when my cousin was pg, I talked to her about it. About how it was unnecessary, painful, had risks, was taking away a natural normal useful body part, etc etc. She chose to do it anyways. I haven't really spoken to her since. We didn't really talk on a regular basis anyways, but I have a big feeling of dislike for her at the moment. And that was months ago. I don't feel much like getting together and having a good time.
I won't hate her, or refuse to speak to her, or anything like that. But...its just not the same as it was before.

So, I dunno.
I'm pretty sure dp would now think less of someone who chose to circ after having all the info.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I am not sure I am understanding what you are saying. By quoting me, are you agreeing, or disagreeing?







:

I agree with you and disagree with your Catholic friend.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap*
I agree with you and disagree with your Catholic friend.

Thanks for clearing that up!







Actually, it was another poster's friend that seems to be mixed up on the Catholic religion.


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## New Mexico Beach (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:

And those of us who say that we would, or have, keep saying over and over again that it's not a punishment, it's just that we literally cannot stand to be around them.
I get that. I never said it was wrong to not want to be their friend, I was just surprised.

However, comparing FGM to circ is tough for people to relate to because it is not something that is done in our culture. It's not socially acceptable like circ is. Hopefully they'll be considered the same some day.


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## ExuberantDaffodil (May 22, 2005)

I would certainly hope that people wouldn't base friendships solely on whether their aquaintances circ'd or not - yes, it is a subject that many people feel very strongly about, and well should, but I am just as passionate about breastfeeindg vs formula feeding, but I would never go so far as to not be friends with a woman ONLY because she formula feeds, either out of necessity or ignorance; I would have to take so many other things into consideration... but I have a whole lot of room in my heart for forgiveness..

to err is human, forgive divine.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

We're not talking about basing new friendships but about continuing existing friendships.

Would you still remain friends with someone who circed even knowing that it's not necessary?

I wouldn't, any more than I would remain friends with someone who beats her kids with a belt even after learning that there are other, gentler ways to discipline.

I just can't be friends with an informed child abuser.

And no, I don't think that makes me a better person than anyone else - but neither do I think that "less judgmental" people are superior either. There's a big premium placed on non-judgmentalism these days but I don't believe in cultural relativism and I don't believe in turning a blind eye and a dumb mouth to child abuse.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

We did stay friends with a couple that circ. We were both pregnant at the same time. We were against circ, mostly because we are from Europe, my DH got goosebumps just thinking about circ. We didn't really research it because we would not do it anyway. Our American friends are jews and the bris was a big family event, they knew we would never circ, but we didn't discuss it more than that, it was just weird for us we had friends that circ (we never met people that circ, it is very uncommon in Europe). It did not occur to me to try to change their mind about it. It would probably have been different if they did it not for religious reasons.

Carma


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## New Mexico Beach (Mar 13, 2006)

In a way I have less of a problem with INFORMED people choosing to circ. If they are informed and still feel it's the best at least they're making an informed decision. I have more of a problem with people who just do it without even researching it because they're too lazy or don't care. I'm not saying I respect those that circ and I definitely don't agree with it, but like I said, I would not end a friendship over it.

And it was brought up earlier what kind of parent would circ. I have a close friend who is a great mom. Two actually. They both circ'd. Both are breastfeeding moms. Both extended nursers and one even tandem nursing. Both co-sleep, don't spank, one does not immunize, both practice attachment parenting for the most part. Both great moms who circ'd their children.


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## frolick16 (Feb 10, 2004)

I have 12 year old and 7 year old sons, they are both circumcised and I deeply regret this decision. I thought I was making the best decision with the information I was given. Unfortunately, I had no one in my life who offered alternatives to the mainstream thought process. They are also vaccinated and thankfully okay. My daughter on the other hand if she had been a boy would have remained intact and is not vaccinated. I did breastfeed, cloth dipaer and co-sleep with all of them instinctively. Thankfully,







I have gained education and now help spread the truth about the medical myths behind circumcision. I was at a Fairie Festival this weekend with my non-profit organization and had the "What does this card have to do with your penis" out and many people stopped and intitiated conversations about why they chose to circ or not to circ. Two teenage boys actually told me they were uncirced. My son was like can you get the penis card off the table already. As parents most of us try to make the best decisions we are able to with the information we have at hand. I find shunning someone with a different approach ensures that person will never be educated and had it not been for friends of mine that took the time to inform and empower me I may never have thought to look beyond what the majority of people around me were doing. Will you still be my friend?


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Closing this thread for review.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I am re-opening this discussion after cleaning it up.

As always, please be respectful in your postings!

Thanks


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## SerafinasMommy (Dec 18, 2005)

Would I be friends with someone who circ'd their sons? Yes.
Would I be friends with someone who fed their kids formula? Sure.

I don't get rid of friends just because they don't believe as I believe.
I would give my opinion on the subject and then drop it.
I try not to push my beliefs on others unless they want to be educated.


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SerafinasMommy*
Would I be friends with someone who circ'd their sons? Yes.
Would I be friends with someone who fed their kids formula? Sure.

I don't get rid of friends just because they don't believe as I believe.
I would give my opinion on the subject and then drop it.
I try not to push my beliefs on others unless they want to be educated.

Me too..

Everyone is different..Not everyone has the same education/circumstances.
Its not my place to judge.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

It is very much my place to judge. How else does one choose a friend than by judging their commonalities and differences against one's own. This must be why ALL my friends currently have intact sons who were breastfed.

I could not stay friends with someone who would abuse their child. It is not "just an opinion." It is a common ethical stance throughout our society that babies should not be brutalized (except in this one way?)

There is no way I would remain friends with anyone that *intentionally hurts a baby.* Either by having their fingernails ripped from their beds because "its sooo much cleaner, there's no way he would keep them clean anyway", cutting off a toe "to look like daddy; who, of course, had to have one removed because it was infected as a teenager and remembers the pain..."







or because they just looove the way a one-eared man looks and they would "never want to be with a two eared guy eeeewww!"

I cannot change a friend who's son has already been mutilated, but I will not stay friends with someone who has the information (which I always share) and still has the most sensitive part of their baby's genitals ripped away FOR _any_ non-life threatening reason! but how many babies get penis frostbite?







)


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadkitty*
It is very much my place to judge. How else does one choose a friend than by judging their commonalities and differences against one's own. This must be why ALL my friends currently have intact sons who were breastfed.

I could not stay friends with someone who would abuse their child. It is not "just an opinion." It is a common ethical stance throughout our society that babies should not be brutalized (except in this one way?)

There is no way I would remain friends with anyone that *intentionally hurts a baby.* Either by having their fingernails ripped from their beds because "its sooo much cleaner, there's no way he would keep them clean anyway", cutting off a toe "to look like daddy; who, of course, had to have one removed because it was infected as a teenager and remembers the pain..."







or because they just looove the way a one-eared man looks and they would "never want to be with a two eared guy eeeewww!"

I cannot change a friend who's son has already been mutilated, but I will not stay friends with someone who has the information (which I always share) and still has the most sensitive part of their baby's genitals ripped away FOR _any_ non-life threatening reason! but how many babies get penis frostbite?







)









:

I'm non-judgemental about almost everything. *Until it hurts someone else*. Add to that hurting someone else who is a newborn baby, or otherwise unable to speak for him/herself then I definitely judge.

I would not be friends with anyone who raped their children either. Should I base my friendship on the fact that they raped their children? Absolutely. Even if I agreed with them about EVERYTHING ELSE, I would stop being friends with them as soon as I found out about them abusing their children in that way. Informed circing for non-medical/religious reasons is equal to rape in my book. For ignorance or religion (I am in no way equating the two) I would make a case-by-case decision - and especially if I didn't know the person when their son was circ'd then I would probably remain friends.

It's the blatant "I know it's bad and there are no reasons for it (except cosmetic), but I want to so I'll do it anyway" thing that really gets my goat. I wish they would outlaw it already...









love and peace.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frolick16*
I have 12 year old and 7 year old sons, they are both circumcised and I deeply regret this decision. I thought I was making the best decision with the information I was given. Unfortunately, I had no one in my life who offered alternatives to the mainstream thought process. They are also vaccinated and thankfully okay. My daughter on the other hand if she had been a boy would have remained intact and is not vaccinated. I did breastfeed, cloth dipaer and co-sleep with all of them instinctively. Thankfully,







I have gained education and now help spread the truth about the medical myths behind circumcision. I was at a Fairie Festival this weekend with my non-profit organization and had the "What does this card have to do with your penis" out and many people stopped and intitiated conversations about why they chose to circ or not to circ. Two teenage boys actually told me they were uncirced. My son was like can you get the penis card off the table already. As parents most of us try to make the best decisions we are able to with the information we have at hand. I find shunning someone with a different approach ensures that person will never be educated and had it not been for friends of mine that took the time to inform and empower me I may never have thought to look beyond what the majority of people around me were doing. Will you still be my friend?

See the difference between this and what I and most other people (I'd wager) are talking about is that you didn't know better and you weren't informed. We're talking about people who KNOW better and who ARE and informed and still do it.


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

I'm friends with quite a few moms of circ'd babies, I don't see it as something to base a friendship off of if you just agree to disagree on it.


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## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

I do my best not to bring it up with other moms of boys for this reason - it would be hard to be friends with someone who was pro-circ. I also do my best not to see into baby boys diapers. It's just very distressing for me to see little circ'd boys.

I don't have any pregnant friends that would circ their kids. But if I was friends with someone and she knew the truth and circ'd anyway I would find it very difficult to impossible to stay friends. I think we would just drift apart as I would be unable to feel real close to someone who had so little in common with me.

Laura


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## Treece (Apr 5, 2006)

My xh's girlfriend circed her boys. She is the primary caregiver to my son when he is there, and we have discussed his intactness and her 2 sons circs. Although I disagree with circ regardless (still not sure about religion, but I do accept all), I am content that she made sure that not only had anesthesia (general) but she was there in scrubs (as she put it) to make sure all was well.

Oh, and the funny thing (oldest 13, youngest about 5) people kept telling her "ya know they do that w/o anesthesia."

But I would say under this circumstance, I would definitely be friends with the person. She cared enough that they wouldn't feel pain. And although I don't agree with it, she did what she thought was best and was a mama bear. (We need a mama bear smiley hehe) But I doubt I could be friends with someone who had all info and still did it.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

I have trouble faulting mainstream friends for listening to their doctors. Not everone is on the net and some people's research is asking a doctor. Its hard to take an opinion from a friend if you have no reason to think your doctors are lying to you. I would have more trouble staying friend's with someone who I knew circ'd because of his or her own personal preference for circed, or to look like daddy.

But with doctor's telling people there are medical benefits and its cleaner I think most mom's are circing for waht they feel are the right reasons. I blame doctors for repeating the lies.


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## mama in the forest (Apr 17, 2006)

Both of my sisters circ'd their sons & it really killed me. My three boys are intact, and I could not understand how they could do it.

Once they did it though - what then? They were my sisters. Every time I think about it though, it makes me sick to my stomach.

One of my sisters has a boy just the same age as my oldest son, and once when they were babies we had them playing naked together on the floor......and I couldn't help comparing their penis's. My son had this gorgeous, beautiful long penis in all it's full glory.....and hers had this tiny, short little stub of a thing & it really looked awful. I wondered what my sister thought as they played there together.









Neither of them are having more children, thank goodness.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

I have a friend who says he will circumcise any boys he has, for religious reasons.

Thankfully he is gay (and an Orthodox Jew would you believe? I found it odd he chose to challenge tradition so strongly in that sense but was so meek when it came to MGM), let us hope that he ever chooses to adopt he picks girls!


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
Thankfully he is gay (and an Orthodox Jew would you believe? I found it odd he chose to challenge tradition so strongly in that sense but was so meek when it came to MGM) . . .

I don't think I understand what you're saying. That his being gay is challenging his religious tradition? He really didn't get a vote there, did he?


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
I don't think I understand what you're saying. That his being gay is challenging his religious tradition? He really didn't get a vote there, did he?

He did not choose to be gay, it was decided by chance really.

What he did decide to do was not repress his feelings away deep down inside or feel sinful and ashamed for them, forever supressing his true self beneath a false faith.

Instead he acted upon his urges and vigourously defended doing so, a varely rarely approved-of approach for a homosexual Orthodox man to do. I just found it quite a pity that he was so free-thinking and broad-minded in that regard but will not extend this attitude when it comes to a blatantly barbaric and brutal custom.

He told me that nothing I could say could possibly change his mind on the issue while also telling me that his faith had taught him to question everything. I doubt he noticed the irony...

But yes, you are correct, being gay would not in itself have challenged them but being openly and unapologetically active would and did.


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

My son is circ'd. At the time of his birth I was entrenched in a large circle of religious friends and feeling my life would lead in that direction. I was informed and chose the best I could at the time. Would I do it again, no! And I am now a big advocate of not-circ'ing, especially within the religious community. But I have worked very hard to ensure that my son does not grow up with shame about his body...the way it is for whatever reason. I've also had to work very hard to not feel guilt over this. Things change, I do the best I can. And take great offense that I would be considered a child abuser!

All of you women who would ditch friends over this .....shame on you. You are not the type of friend I would want to be friends with anyway! Where do you cross the line? what other criteria do you have. Friendship is about understanding and kindness and love. Where do you find all these friends that are exactly like you? And how boring that must be. Do you all just sit around and talk about how awful everyone else is and how much better you are? Would you not let my son come for a playdate with your children because of my choice? WOW! Well guess you are making your point huh? It is really showing the world you shouldn't circ your sons or you will have no friends ---- not everyone will follow your creed just because YOU have told them what to do. I am friends with ALL kinds of people and we learn from each other everyday because of those diffrences, we even get into very heated discussions about it, but in the end we respect each others diffrences with love and kindness.







:


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Where do I cross the line? What criteria do I have? That's easy.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who hits or beats her children.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who emotionally abuses her children - puts them down, shames them, disrespects them constantly.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who KNOWINGLY harms her child by circumcising him even KNOWING what circumcision is and what it does for social/cultural/aesthetic reasons, after having been given the information by me or someone else.

I am friends with plenty of mamas who circed - the vast majority of whom did so for non-religious reasons "to look like daddy." Some of them are my extremely close friends. They would not stay my extremely close friends if they chose to circ again, knowing what they know now.

I cannot be friends with someone who does not respect her OWN CHILD's right to his body and treat him with love and kindness by respecting his right to bodily integrity.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Where do I cross the line? What criteria do I have? That's easy.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who hits or beats her children.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who emotionally abuses her children - puts them down, shames them, disrespects them constantly.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who KNOWINGLY harms her child by circumcising him even KNOWING what circumcision is and what it does for social/cultural/aesthetic reasons, after having been given the information by me or someone else.

I am friends with plenty of mamas who circed - the vast majority of whom did so for non-religious reasons "to look like daddy." Some of them are my extremely close friends. They would not stay my extremely close friends if they chose to circ again, knowing what they know now.

I cannot be friends with someone who does not respect her OWN CHILD's right to his body and treat him with love and kindness by respecting his right to bodily integrity.

Yeah, what she just said. Once you know and continue the cycle of abuse, it's a whole other story.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
Do you all just sit around and talk about how awful everyone else is and how much better you are? Would you not let my son come for a playdate with your children because of my choice?

Nice strawman you have there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
I am friends with ALL kinds of people and we learn from each other everyday because of those diffrences, we even get into very heated discussions about it, but in the end we respect each others diffrences with love and kindness.

All kinds of people, eh? Do you have any friends that are, say, convicted rapists? Arsonists? Murderers? Armed robbers? Enron executives? Seriously, is there no person so heinous that you would refrain from associating with them? Can you understand that some of us have different definitions of what we consider to be heinous?


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

geeze this ticks me off!!


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3*
geeze this ticks me off!!

Why is that?


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

because i had my son circ. 11 years ago, i didn't want to but my dh insisted so i caved, my second son isn't only because we waited to long to have it done. which i am glad for.
But i take offense to the comparison. that's why


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3*
because i had my son circ. 11 years ago, i didn't want to but my dh insisted so i caved, my second son isn't only because we waited to long to have it done. which i am glad for.
But i take offense to the comparison. that's why









I do not think that anyone here would judge you at all. It was not your fault so much as the culture which has made circumcision acceptable, if there had been no doctor providing such a brutal "Service" then your son would have been left intact.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

If I gave my friend materials and they knew that it was wrong to do it and they chose to anyway, no I wouldn't.


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

g


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Did you circumcise your son after hearing the truth about the procedure, and understanding that you were going to cause your son pain and lifelong negative effects?


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

well now treefolk, my reply doesn't make sense! Why did you delete it?


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

I erased it because I don't see the point in defending myself, or at least getting defensive of being put into the same category as a rapsit and murderer...
Really, I give respect to ahnyone trying to change the way things are and make it NOT acceptable to circ. Some of the things that have been said in the thread I'd rather agree to disagree, that's all.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

OK. I thought after my post that I shouldn't have asked you anyway. It was inappropriate. Sorry.


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

I have given up friendships over this issue. I also still have friends who have circ'd their sons; in fact, my oldest is circ'd.
29 years ago I did not have access to the www and while I realize that many many mommas still did not allow their sons to be mutilated, even without the benefit of MDC







, I was not one of those mommas. I was a self centered non maternal 18 year old who should have had to pass a test to get to take my son home







Allowing him to have his genitals altered would have been a good test.

The friends I have currently with sons who are mutilated are now educated, they regret their decision (or non-decision) and would never allow another son to be mutilated.
The ones who know the facts and go ahead and allow it anyway.... nope; can't be friends with them anymore than I could be friends with someone who pulled the wings off of baby birds.
One xfriend has cut two babies, she's expecting another in August. The worst part? She refused to even look at any information, _because it might make her feel bad about circing_ About a year ago, she came to my house and told me that it was unfair of me to not let our kids play together; that her DD missed my DD and we shouldn't let our "differences of opinion" come between the girls. I told her firmly, but very very gently, that I considered circumcision to be sexual child abuse and it was my duty as a parent to keep my DD away from people who were sexual child abusers. She cried; my DC were very upset that I hurt her feelings and I was even angrier with her for playing such a stupid game with me.
Another friend is actually the son of my best friend. I sent him the links, he ignored them. We went from seeing he and his wife 3-4 times a month to seeing them 1-2 times a year at large gatherings. When we do see them, I make sure DS gets "loose" at least once so they can see what a normal penis looks like. Since DS is PLing, I guess we're done with that... When I see pictues of their DS (he was a year old in Jan) I can barely look at his face. They are pregnant with a girl now and having all sorts of complications; I really cannot muster any concern whatsoever over their fear that they may lose this baby







: I just honestly don't care if they're in pain.

All my empathy lies with the little boy who had no voice...


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## Kawren's Mommy (Jun 7, 2006)

It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice. I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain. I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer.

But in response to your situation, it's really none of your business what your friend choose to do with her son. You are probably missing out on meeting some really great parents if you won't be her friend for such a petty reason. How would you feel to be rejected for a reason like that? It's like not being someone's friend because they like corn and you don't. And it's definitely not a positive example for your children to see.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

It's also a private choice to beat your child as well, but many of us here believe that children are worth advocating for.

I suggest you read a bit. Would you circumcise your daughter because one of your friends had infections?


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice. I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain. I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer
Welcome to MDC.







Hopefully you will stick around this forum for awhile because it is a wonderful resource. You are right that it is a private choice, but it is NOT THE PARENT'S CHOICE. It is not their penis, so they have no right to make a decision that will affect him for the rest of his life. Baby boys are born with a foreskin, so there is no decision to make, it was already made. As far as your dh's friend who had to be circ'd in his twenties-chances are very slim that it was necessary and if he had been living in most countries other than the States, circ would not have been the answer.


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kawren's Mommy*
It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice.
I think it's sadder to MAKE such a private choice FOR another person.
I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain.
I have an intact brother who had infection after infection due to the doctor's instructions to rip back the foreskin and clean under it at every diaper change. He is now in his 40s and still intact.
I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer.
me too

But in response to your situation, it's really none of your business what your friend choose to do with her son.
It is indeed my business. It is also my business if she beats him
You are probably missing out on meeting some really great parents if you won't be her friend for such a petty reason.
If a parent knows the facts and mutilates anyway, I am not missng out on knowing a great parent. They've disqualified themselves from that title.
How would you feel to be rejected for a reason like that?
Rejection is part of life, but I couldn't be rejected for a reason like that because I don't sexually abuse my children.
It's like not being someone's friend because they like corn and you don't.
ummmm; how is it the same?
And it's definitely not a positive example for your children to see.
I believe it's an excellent example for my children to see. Mama standing up for the rights of the people (or animals, or environment) that do not have a voice of their own.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Kawren's Mommy - Welcome to MDC and please check out the name of this forum







If someone likes corn or doesn't, it doesn't constitute sexual abuse. If someone circ's their son (or their daughter) knowing all the facts about there being NO benefit to circ and does it anyway ('cause it's so much "prettier") then it's child abuse. Someone who doesn't know any better and does it out of ignorance has abused their child, but doesn't deserve to be judged for it.

If someone decided they really wanted a girl and made the decision to chop their son's penis off and raise him as a girl (he'd be so much "prettier" as a girl anyhow), would you stay friends with them? How is chopping HALF the penis off any different then chopping the whole thing off (other than one being socially acceptable)? I guess a circ'd penis is still semi-functional because it's only been partially mutilated, but according to many friends I have in real life - the circ'd mutilated penis is NOT functional at all compared to the intact whole penis. Would you stay friends with someone who chopped their child's arm off because his father only had one arm and wanted the son to "look like him"? Where do you draw the line, Kawren's mommy? I'm just curious...

The person whose penis it is should be the one making the "personal" decision. Parents cannot make a "personal" decision for another person. It doesn't work like that (and it shouldn't be legal to do so).

My daughter has the right to not be mutilated so why shouldn't a son of a pro-circer have the same right to not be mutilated? It's his body after all just like it's my daughter's body









love and peace.


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## twinsr4me (Nov 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
If I gave my friend materials and they knew that it was wrong to do it and they chose to anyway, no I wouldn't.

you know people, people do things because of how they believe. And it is just mean that you (people) would drop someone from being a friend just because they didn't listen to you. granted people make poor decisions in life but it is their decisions they have to live with.
You cant live life for other people. People have to live life on their one and seek out their own answers and ways. just because you give someone the facts doesnt mean people will follow it.
I can give many people facts that Jesus is the answer and he was a real person and he is the son of God but does everyone believe it. No, people will do what they want to do and believe the way they want to and that is why it is called "free will".
"Judge not lest ye be judge" Ignorant isn't bliss but they have to find that out for themselves. We can try to help them but it is their life. Our job as humans is to Love God, Love Others and love ourselves in that order.
Anyways, to some it up LOVE!!!


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## twinsr4me (Nov 20, 2005)

oh, one more thing might I add. granted children dont have a choice of whether or not to be circed but are you not their parent? they also dont have a choice in their name, do they? some people grow up hating their name. there are things they dont choose but you as a parent choose for them, right? well that is your right as their parent. and sure you do want to make the right choices for them, but sometimes you don't entirely know what that is. so you make what [/U]you [/U]think is the right choice. who's to say you are right? so that's where you do try to educate yourself but sometimes you can get mislead and make wrong choices. and that is life. you do live and learn. and in some cases things turn out and sometimes they dont. making right and wrong choices is what makes us human. if we all made the right choices do you think we need God then? enough said.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twinsr4me*
oh, one more thing might I add. granted children dont have a choice of whether or not to be circed but are you not their parent? they also dont have a choice in their name, do they? some people grow up hating their name. there are things they dont choose but you as a parent choose for them, right? well that is your right as their parent. and sure you do want to make the right choices for them, but sometimes you don't entirely know what that is. so you make what [/U]you [/U]think is the right choice. who's to say you are right? so that's where you do try to educate yourself but sometimes you can get mislead and make wrong choices. and that is life. you do live and learn. and in some cases things turn out and sometimes they dont. making right and wrong choices is what makes us human. if we all made the right choices do you think we need God then? enough said.

Hello there. I just wanted to point out a few things in your post. No, a child cannot choose for himself whether or not to be circumcised, but as an adult he sure can! And since there is absolutely no reason why he can't make the decision for himself, then why should a parent be able to make it? It is not their body, it should not be their choice to have cosmetic surgery preformed on it.

As far as names go, sure your child might hate his name but the big difference here is he can change it if he is unhappy. Not so with circumcision. Once it is done, it is done. He is out of luck! A big part of his sexuality is gone forever









Sure, parents have rights and they should have rights to do what needs to be done to raise a happy, healthy child. But circumcision does not qualify in this because it is not necessary, and in many ways harmful. You have to draw the line somewhere where parents rights end and the rights of the child begin.

Take care,
Tara


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## Paper-Bag-Princess (Aug 26, 2005)

Why is it that people have a difficult time understanding the name of this forum? I am getting quite irked that posters (who wouldn't normally post here) come here just to admonish other people because they don't wish to read peoples honest opinions. If you don't like it, don't read it, skip it, or ignore it. No one is forcing you to come to this forum.

Many people are of the belief that when you know better you do better. Some people get it, some don't. I had a friend that was so anxious to have her premature son circumcised because she didn't want him to be different from her dh, because she didn't (and still doesn't have) a penis, and because (insert lame reason here...). Even after having all the info. presented to her, after doing all of her purported research, she still insisted that her second son be circ'd as well. Not because of some profound and overwhelming evidence that said that there were proven benefits to it (which there are NOT), she did it to appeal to her husband's insecurities and vanities. Why should I tolerate such utter ridiculousness in a friend? As the mother to these boys she should have fought harder to protect them from a surgery that she knew was completely unnecessary, imo. Her 'dear' husband has never changed a diaper and for the person insisting so vehemently to circ. to "match", he wasn't present for either one of his sons circumcisions as he was away on a fishing trip both times. Rather convieniant, don't you think?

So pardon me for my honesty and the fact that it appears to bother you so much that I would end a friendship over this issue. I'm not looking for your approval. I'm much more concerned with defending a person's choice to do with his body what he pleases, as an adult, and I'm therefore not so concerned if someone is "insulted" by my pov regarding circumcision and if it hurts their delicate sensibilities, but you know, it's not about YOU!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twinsr4me*
I can give many people facts that Jesus is the answer and he was a real person and he is the son of God but does everyone believe it. No, people will do what they want to do and believe the way they want to and that is why it is called "free will".
"Judge not lest ye be judge" Ignorant isn't bliss but they have to find that out for themselves. We can try to help them but it is their life. Our job as humans is to Love God, Love Others and love ourselves in that order.
Anyways, to some it up LOVE!!!









I am so sorry, but I just have to say that's not really the best comparison. While I think it's absolutely great that you don't condemn those who don't believe, many, many others absolutely will not be around anyone who doesn't. I think that is way worse to scream about how people are going to hell or aren't going to be "saved" than to tell someone that they are wrong for mutilating the genitals of their infant.

There's a huge difference there. Religion is more of a theoretical belief, IMO, and no one can prove anything one way or the other until you, uh, meet your maker, so to speak. And then, you can't tell anyone else what you know. The facts are there about circumcision.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
Hello there. I just wanted to point out a few things in your post. No, a child cannot choose for himself whether or not to be circumcised, but as an adult he sure can! And since there is absolutely no reason why he can't make the decision for himself, then why should a parent be able to make it? It is not their body, it should not be their choice to have cosmetic surgery preformed on it.

As far as names go, sure your child might hate his name but the big difference here is he can change it if he is unhappy. Not so with circumcision. Once it is done, it is done. He is out of luck! A big part of his sexuality is gone forever









Sure, parents have rights and they should have rights to do what needs to be done to raise a happy, healthy child. But circumcision does not qualify in this because it is not necessary, and in many ways harmful. You have to draw the line somewhere where parents rights end and the rights of the child begin.

Take care,
Tara


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## mijumom (Feb 28, 2004)

I am not a perfect parent. My gut reaction to circumcision is disgust and for a long time I couldn't bond with moms who circed but 6 years into motherhood, I have found that the comfort I feel with women who are open-minded is so refreshing compared to the dogmatic, competitive perfect moms that tend to be attracted to AP. I'm sorry to be so brazen but, a good majority of my friends have boys that are circed for various reasons. I think it is gross and feel opposed to circumcision *but* we do nothing by judging women who live in a society and a culture that promotes this ritual as better fro one reason or another. I don't think it is easy for these women to see their children in pain and I don't think they don't suffer, I just think that it's a battle of propoganda and usually the mainstream, fear-mongering wins.

Could i have a friend that voted for Bush? NEVER. Go figure.









BTW- I do respect that if you can't get past it, than don't stay friends with the person. It's pretty simple. The women I am friends with whose kids are circed happen to be extraordinary women who are intelligent and thoughtful. That should be an indication of how important education and sensitivity are with regard to this issue. Just my opinion.


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## christifav (Nov 10, 2005)

I am TRYING to remain friends with this woman. She doesn't want to hear the facts because as far as she is concerned, it is NOT mutilation, it does NOT scar, and is NO BIG DEAL. She refuses to read the literature I give her because she knows I might just be right.

That kind of child neglect (IMO) is unconsionable to me. What is the harm in looking into the risks (many) vs. benefits (none) of the surgery? I think any good parent, when offered the information, ought to at least read it, dissect it, ache to prove it wrong, if you want, but ultimately, know that you've done the best you could by knowing as much as you can about it.

To refuse the information is to be no better than a child who plugs their ears pretending not to hear a parent say it is bedtime, or a person who refuses to read history on the Holocoust because it is just too horrible to believe. "If I've never gotten the information, then I can pretend it isn't true." If your POV is so "right-on" then why would you not welcome opposing viewpoints and counter them? The only reason is because you CAN'T counter them.

As hard as I try to look past her attitude on this issue, I just don't think our friendship will last very long.

That said, I have a good friend who circ'd her son because she didn't know any better. Well, if you don't know any better, then I can understand that. But pretending you don't know any better to justify abuse? Nah, I can't accept that.


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## rouserstrousers (Oct 10, 2004)

I dont have any friends that circ, but my SIL circed her son and I *have* to be friends with her. IF she wasn't my SIL I'd probably not be friends with her at all. She also quit breastfeeding her DD who was nursing perfectly fine for 4 weeks. Grrr!

If I did have a friend who circed I'd probably still be friends with her if the relationship went way back, but I'd be dissapointed.


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## twinsr4me (Nov 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*







I am so sorry, but I just have to say that's not really the best comparison.

There's a huge difference there. Religion is more of a theoretical belief, IMO, and no one can prove anything one way or the other until you, uh, meet your maker, so to speak. And then, you can't tell anyone else what you know. The facts are there about circumcision.

Actually, it's a pretty great comparsion. One being that there are facts about Jesus, its not theoretical, and people still choose to not believe.
Secondly, to believe in Jesus is eternity. While comestic as circ may be our bodies are temporary. Jesus is way more important to focus our energies on than being hateful to people who make mistakes.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twinsr4me*
Actually, it's a pretty great comparsion. One being that there are facts about Jesus, its not theoretical, and people still choose to not believe.
Secondly, to believe in Jesus is eternity. While comestic as circ may be our bodies are temporary. Jesus is way more important to focus our energies on than being hateful to people who make mistakes.

Okay, well I am not getting into this 'cause we can't discuss religion here. This thread's made it to 11 pages and sure wouldn't want to see it pulled now.


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## Shell_Ell (Jun 13, 2005)

Well. We didn't circumsize, and it's the norm in my circle of friends to leave your boy intact. But it's not, however, the norm amongst family members. Right now, my cousin's wife is pregnant, and my brother's gf is pregnant. Both found out recently they are having boys and I thought immediately "OMG, how can I stop them from mutiliating their sons..." but when it comes down to it, there isn't alot you can do. I'm really worried about causing a rift in my family by saying something to my brother about it. I do want to get the correct information into their hands, but I just don't know how to go about it. If I have a chance to bring it up, I definately will, but its not like I'll stop talking to them if they choose to do it. It's their choice, they have to live with the guilt of it.

As for friends, I find it hard to be friends with mainstreamers anyhow- we are just too different. But I wouldn't drop someone because they chose to circ. I'd tell them that there was no reason for it (and have) but I wouldn't stop being friends with them.


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## stever_45723 (Feb 21, 2006)

For years I just didn't say anything to friends or family when the birth of a boy was expected. Then, two years ago when my elder niece was pregnant with a son, after months of agonizing I finally decided I had to say something, particularly since the niece had said negative things about foreskin in the past. In the end, I wrote both of the nieces a nine-page, single-spaced letter explaining all the reasons why I was opposed to neonatal circumcision. Now both my nieces have intact sons. You've got to take the risk; the alternative is that your voice doesn't get heard. I am convinced that far too many RICs get done just because people are hesitant to say anything about a subject so intimate. That said, I don't know whether I will be able to do it again, and I have a colleague whose wife is pregnant now. In the cse of my nieces, it was just too close to not say anything.


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## desultory (Jan 25, 2006)

Happily, circumcision is rare among my friends, but I could never end a friendship only on the basis of this one decision. Even folks who 'have all the facts' can come to a different conclusion, dismiss some of the 'facts' as hype or propoganda, or give in to family and social pressure, not to mention bad advice from pediatricians. In the few cases I know about in my own circle, the mothers all read quite a bit, and concluded that complications were rare and that the practice could be done humanely (with anaesthesia) and so they gave in to their husbands' pressure to conform and arguments that since they weren't traumatized by being circ'ed, the case against was exaggerated. I'm just glad that circumcision rates are dropping -- hopefully this won't really be much of an issue in another generation.


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Paper-Bag-Princess*
Why is it that people have a difficult time understanding the name of this forum? I am getting quite irked that posters (who wouldn't normally post here) come here just to admonish other people because they don't wish to read peoples honest opinions. If you don't like it, don't read it, skip it, or ignore it. No one is forcing you to come to this forum.

Many people are of the belief that when you know better you do better. Some people get it, some don't. I had a friend that was so anxious to have her premature son circumcised because she didn't want him to be different from her dh, because she didn't (and still doesn't have) a penis, and because (insert lame reason here...). Even after having all the info. presented to her, after doing all of her purported research, she still insisted that her second son be circ'd as well. Not because of some profound and overwhelming evidence that said that there were proven benefits to it (which there are NOT), she did it to appeal to her husband's insecurities and vanities. Why should I tolerate such utter ridiculousness in a friend? As the mother to these boys she should have fought harder to protect them from a surgery that she knew was completely unnecessary, imo. Her 'dear' husband has never changed a diaper and for the person insisting so vehemently to circ. to "match", he wasn't present for either one of his sons circumcisions as he was away on a fishing trip both times. Rather convieniant, don't you think?

So pardon me for my honesty and the fact that it appears to bother you so much that I would end a friendship over this issue. I'm not looking for your approval. I'm much more concerned with defending a person's choice to do with his body what he pleases, as an adult, and I'm therefore not so concerned if someone is "insulted" by my pov regarding circumcision and if it hurts their delicate sensibilities, but you know, it's not about YOU!

I did read the forum title...it was a question!!! So should I only post if I answer the same as you? I am completly against circ....I'm just one that would answer yes to the original question of this particular thread, and I'm giving my honest answer. There are 2 sides to it. So inviting that into the thread you can expect people to get offended either way. It's all in learning from discussion, right????


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twinsr4me*
Actually, it's a pretty great comparsion. One being that there are facts about Jesus, its not theoretical, and people still choose to not believe.
Secondly, to believe in Jesus is eternity. While comestic as circ may be our bodies are temporary. Jesus is way more important to focus our energies on than being hateful to people who make mistakes.

Waiting for these facts - maybe in the religion forum.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah no kidding.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

no, i'd not stop being friends with this person.
goodness.
i'd hate to think someone would stop being my friend becasue of a choice i made reguarding MY children, even if they didn't agree with it.
people make choices in their lives everyday, that make me stand back and scratch my head, and even well up with tears at times..
but i have found in my time here on this earth, i can't let the decisions of others rule my life. i allowed a decision made my own mother burden me for over 20 years..and all for nothing, it was a decision that i would have never been able to change, even though it effected my life quite drastically.
so thats how i feel about that.

i will be very very honest here and risk the flames.. my first two sons circ'd. had the baby i am carrying now been a boy, he'd have been left intact.. and the reason you ask? not because of any studies, or statistics, but simply that my almost 9 year old son, saw that about half of his class were intact, and he wanted his new brother to have skin on his penis too...

but anyway, its not very heartwarming to think that someone would not be my friend because of a decision that i made 9 years ago, not knowing i even had a choice.
for me, life is just too short.
to base my life off of the decision of others is just something that i no longer have the energy to do. i found that my energy is just too valuable.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Sigh. Have you even read the thread? Once again, no one has said they would not _make friends_ with a mother who had circ'ed boys. Many of us have friends whose children were circ'ed before we knew them.

We have said it would be too heartbreaking, too awful, too painful, to continue a relationship with someone that definitely knew the facts, the truth, about circumcision- and yet still did it to her son. It is not about punishing that mother. For me, I just could not ever look at her the same or have warm feelings for her if she knowingly hurt her baby for cultural, societal or family reasons.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I had both my sons circumcised over 20 years ago, before I knew better. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't do it. But I don't consider it abuse, just a mistake. My son just had a son and I talked to them at length about it, and even though they faltered a little, they decided it was best to have it done. What am I supposed to do, not talk to my son again and not have a relationship with my grandchildren? My grandson is a darling, happy little baby and even though I would rather not have him had to go through it, I still love him and my son. They did use pain medication when it was done, and my son had to be there. What would you all do if your child decides to circumcise their son(s)?


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## mijumom (Feb 28, 2004)

I think that a person should not make pre-judgemnets about whether they would stay friends or not based on one issue.

If you are too uncomfortable with a particular person for *any* reason then don't be friends with them.

There are a multitude of reasons to stay friends or not. I've let people go because I don't like being around them for whatever reason. You don't have to justify choosing to be friends with a person or not. Friendships should feel safe and secure and mostly pleasurable, if thats not happening because personal feelings come up about circumcision or just the fact that they push your buttons too much then move along. I just don't see this as having much to do with circumcision so much as what can you as an indivual tolerate and what is your level of discomfort.


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## cam&kat's_mom (Jan 12, 2006)

my parenting choices are mine and theirs are theirs. I do not like to have others opinions shoved down my throat adn i refuse to do it to others. Quite honestly my friends an d i dont' discuss our childrens genitals. If one chooses to circ that is a decision that they have to dela with, not my place. AND as someone else said just because they didn't take your advice on that doesn't mean they dont' take it on other things. SO I guess I woudl remain frineds with them and hope that if they wanted advie on things with future children adn they ASKED for it I woudl be able to help them adn hopefully they woudl take it.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cam&kat's_mom*
my parenting choices are mine and theirs are theirs. I do not like to have others opinions shoved down my throat adn i refuse to do it to others. Quite honestly my friends an d i dont' discuss our childrens genitals. If one chooses to circ that is a decision that they have to dela with, not my place. AND as someone else said just because they didn't take your advice on that doesn't mean they dont' take it on other things. SO I guess I woudl remain frineds with them and hope that if they wanted advie on things with future children adn they ASKED for it I woudl be able to help them adn hopefully they woudl take it.

I bet the baby will wish his parents hadn't shoved their life- and body-altering decision down HIS throat. I'll bet the baby, when he grows up and realizes what his parents' "choice" stole from him, will wish that one of their friends had had the balls to discuss it with them, to give them the facts they needed to leave him intact. He'll wish someone had thought it was "their place" to talk to his parents.

I don't think a good friend should withhold facts that could help a child- FACTS, these are not just "differing opinions", _there is no medical benefit to circumcision!!!_


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom*
I bet the baby will wish his parents hadn't shoved their life- and body-altering decision down HIS throat. I'll bet the baby, when he grows up and realizes what his parents' "choice" stole from him, will wish that one of their friends had had the balls to discuss it with them, to give them the facts they needed to leave him intact. He'll wish someone had thought it was "their place" to talk to his parents.

I don't think a good friend should withhold facts that could help a child- FACTS, these are not just "differing opinions", _there is no medical benefit to circumcision!!!_









: It's not an opinion. If the person doesn't know any better then it is a "mistake" but if the person knows better then it is most CERTAINLY abuse! If someone spanks their kids without knowing any better, not thinking it through, not knowing there's another way then it's not abuse, IMO. It's something they need to be educated about. My parents spanked us, didn't know any better, and I don't feel that I was abused as a child. I am totally against hitting children, BUT if someone really didn't know any better then they don't know any better and should be educated and not avoided. I mean, goodness, we're not judging or advocating judging anyone who circ'd out of ignorance (ignorance meaning "without knowing there was another option" namely to leave the child intact).

Disclaimer - I was just using the spanking as an example of something that is abuse, but can be done with good intentions through ignorance just like circ can. I am in no way whatsoever advocating any corporal punishment!

love and peace.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*







: It's not an opinion. If the person doesn't know any better then it is a "mistake" but if the person knows better then it is most CERTAINLY abuse! If someone spanks their kids without knowing any better, not thinking it through, not knowing there's another way then it's not abuse, IMO. It's something they need to be educated about. My parents spanked us, didn't know any better, and I don't feel that I was abused as a child. I am totally against hitting children, BUT if someone really didn't know any better then they don't know any better and should be educated and not avoided. I mean, goodness, we're not judging or advocating judging anyone who circ'd out of ignorance (ignorance meaning "without knowing there was another option" namely to leave the child intact).

Disclaimer - I was just using the spanking as an example of something that is abuse, but can be done with good intentions through ignorance just like circ can. I am in no way whatsoever advocating any corporal punishment!

love and peace.









Great post!


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## Jennbee (Apr 30, 2005)

I feel that I failed one of my friends. The topic of circumcision didn't come up until I visited her and the baby when he was about 3 months. She was telling me about a talk show (Montel?) that was discussing it, and that's when I found out they had their son circ'd. She said that if she had known more about it, she wouldn't have had it done. I feel sad for her and her baby.

ETA: I am still friends with her. We aren't as close as when we went to college together, but we do talk about once a month on the phone.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rileysmommy*
no, i'd not stop being friends with this person.
goodness.
i'd hate to think someone would stop being my friend becasue of a choice i made reguarding MY children, even if they didn't agree with it.
people make choices in their lives everyday, that make me stand back and scratch my head, and even well up with tears at times..
but i have found in my time here on this earth, i can't let the decisions of others rule my life. i allowed a decision made my own mother burden me for over 20 years..and all for nothing, it was a decision that i would have never been able to change, even though it effected my life quite drastically.
so thats how i feel about that.

i will be very very honest here and risk the flames.. my first two sons circ'd. had the baby i am carrying now been a boy, he'd have been left intact.. and the reason you ask? not because of any studies, or statistics, but simply that my almost 9 year old son, saw that about half of his class were intact, and he wanted his new brother to have skin on his penis too...

but anyway, its not very heartwarming to think that someone would not be my friend because of a decision that i made 9 years ago, not knowing i even had a choice.
for me, life is just too short.
to base my life off of the decision of others is just something that i no longer have the energy to do. i found that my energy is just too valuable.

I think this post says a lot in two regards:

1.) Out of the mouths of babes: Empathy for others (in this case, their would-be baby brother and other boys).

2.) The fact that 2006, half the boys in that particular school (or perhaps class that represents a good cross-section) born 8-10 years ago *in Texas no less*, have intact genitals.

Question: Why did your son want his little brother to "keep his skin" when it was about 50/50? It's probably not because "oh, there's like 90% intact-or-cut and I wouldn't want him to feel left out" junk. No. The rate is about 50/50. So it's more of a inner feeling of genital integrity perhaps. I don't know the answer and am merely speculating on your son's feelings, but assuming they don't know the added benefits of sensitivity (of being intact), they feel it's wrong to circ because it shouldn't be forced on someone who can't speak for themselves. I think your son's feelings are quite profound!

I'm just raising awareness of this post and bumping it up.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

my son is a funny little fellow.
he was born in new jersey though, but you are right, it does prove for an interesting cross section in texas. however at his particular school, even though i don't have much in commen with the other parents..i have found they do seem( at least 50%) more natural in their thinking about parenting.

as for his reason why?
he said he liked the way it looked.( they have swim class, so they were all changing into their bathing suits.. in case anyone was wondering why there was a locker roomof naked little 2nd grade boys.
there was more to the story( this kid kills me, really he does)
my boys were in the tub, and thats how this little talke ensued, in the end, he was basically like " so mom, you breastfed me, but you didn't know about cloth diapers,a nd you didn't know about penises, so then with ben, you breastfeed ben, and now you knew about cloth diapers being better, but you were still unsure about penises, so he paused, looked at me and let out a sigh, then said, so, if our new baby is a boy...you know about ALL these things now, RIGHT?"

i just found it as profound as i did hilarious, just becasue he was 8 years old, talking to me as if he was 35.
i asked him if he felt sad that he had no skin like the other kids in class did, he said no, he didn't feel sad at all, i asked him if he felt angry or sad with mommy and daddy, again he said no. i told him it was okay, if he did feel that way, that for him to know that we always try to do the very best thing that we know how when it comes to the children.
so he tops the cake by pointing out that daddy and i were " so young" when he was born( we were 23).
you know.. as if 23 seems young to an 8 year old( he has jus theard us say it though).

i have friends that have circ'd kids, and i have friends that have kids intact. and i guess i find my friendships very important, that i couldn't be upset with them, or feel like i failed or they failed, by a parental choice they made.
i don't like spanking, but again, i know people that do spank.. same with cloth, and vax's and breastfeeding( or GASP! extended breastfeeding)...
i just can't live their life for them. i can't face their consequence tomorrow for their actions of today. i love my friends, and i hope they love me.
i think as people we all have room for growth, i know by having my son almost 9 years ago, at the ripe age of 23, i have grown a lot with that time, he has taught me everything that i know.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rileysmommy*
my son is a funny little fellow.
he was born in new jersey though, but you are right, it does prove for an interesting cross section in texas. however at his particular school, even though i don't have much in commen with the other parents..i have found they do seem( at least 50%) more natural in their thinking about parenting.

as for his reason why?
he said he liked the way it looked.( they have swim class, so they were all changing into their bathing suits.. in case anyone was wondering why there was a locker roomof naked little 2nd grade boys.
there was more to the story( this kid kills me, really he does)
my boys were in the tub, and thats how this little talke ensued, in the end, he was basically like " so mom, you breastfed me, but you didn't know about cloth diapers,a nd you didn't know about penises, so then with ben, you breastfeed ben, and now you knew about cloth diapers being better, but you were still unsure about penises, so he paused, looked at me and let out a sigh, then said, so, if our new baby is a boy...you know about ALL these things now, RIGHT?"

i just found it as profound as i did hilarious, just becasue he was 8 years old, talking to me as if he was 35.
i asked him if he felt sad that he had no skin like the other kids in class did, he said no, he didn't feel sad at all, i asked him if he felt angry or sad with mommy and daddy, again he said no. i told him it was okay, if he did feel that way, that for him to know that we always try to do the very best thing that we know how when it comes to the children.
so he tops the cake by pointing out that daddy and i were " so young" when he was born( we were 23).
you know.. as if 23 seems young to an 8 year old( he has jus theard us say it though).

i have friends that have circ'd kids, and i have friends that have kids intact. and i guess i find my friendships very important, that i couldn't be upset with them, or feel like i failed or they failed, by a parental choice they made.
i don't like spanking, but again, i know people that do spank.. same with cloth, and vax's and breastfeeding( or GASP! extended breastfeeding)...
i just can't live their life for them. i can't face their consequence tomorrow for their actions of today. i love my friends, and i hope they love me.
i think as people we all have room for growth, i know by having my son almost 9 years ago, at the ripe age of 23, i have grown a lot with that time, he has taught me everything that i know.

Wow... A brilliant post there, thank you.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
Wow... A brilliant post there, thank you.









:

love and peace.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

This thread has really opened my eyes. I've never thought about penises so much in my life. I've even started several conversations with friends about it, including asking a friend who didn't circ her boys if she thinks less of us because we did. (She was shocked that I would even ask.)

So now we have these friends who are pregnant and I asked them if they will circ if they have a boy. (A question I wouldn't have even thought to ask a month ago.) Not surprisingly, she said it was a question they haven't even discussed. He quickly chimed in that, being the penis-wearing member of the couple, he would make the decision, and yes, they would circ. At that point, I was able to offer them a lot of reasons I've learned here about why they might rethink that choice. I was not forcefully anti-circ, but I was able to offer food for thought. I would never tell another parent what to do with their child. But I was happy to have information to share that may improve the quality of their decision-making. So I thank you for expanding my mind on this topic.

Howeeeeeeeeeeevah . . . may I just make a gentle suggestion for your cause? Yes, you've made me rethink my position on circumcision. BUT, the ugly tone was a real stumbling block for me. I wanted to listen and to learn, but it's really hard to be receptive to ideas from folks who are calling me a child rapist. I love my kid just as much as you love yours.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Howeeeeeeeeeeevah . . . may I just make a gentle suggestion for your cause? Yes, you've made me rethink my position on circumcision. BUT, the ugly tone was a real stumbling block for me. I wanted to listen and to learn, but it's really hard to be receptive to ideas from folks who are calling me a child rapist. I love my kid just as much as you love yours.

The more one learns of circumcision the more blatant its abhorent nature becomes.

Accordingly it becomes difficult at times for those in an informed position on the topic to relate to those who are within a greater state of ignorance should they choose to circumcise.

It is certainly something we should attempt to do but it is something which I personally find quite difficult at times. I would not use suggest it is an equivilent to child rape though...That seems a little crude.


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## adtake (Feb 1, 2006)

First I would like to appologize that I have not read the entire thread.

Secondly I am appauled at some of the responces on here. I can not believe that you would severe a friendship or shun someone because of their parenting choices. I can not believe how petty and judgemental some of the posts were. I understand completely how firmly you believe in what you as a parent are doing, but it sickens me that some one would severe a friendship because of it.

I sincerely hope that I do not have any friends like that. It would hurt me deeply to know that someone I thought was a friend could be so cruel.

That being said, attack away.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smlwieber*
First I would like to appologize that I have not read the entire thread.

Secondly I am appauled at some of the responces on here. I can not believe that you would severe a friendship or shun someone because of their parenting choices. I can not believe how petty and judgemental some of the posts were. I understand completely how firmly you believe in what you as a parent are doing, but it sickens me that some one would severe a friendship because of it.

I sincerely hope that I do not have any friends like that. It would hurt me deeply to know that someone I thought was a friend could be so cruel.

That being said, attack away.

It would seem that you have failed to realise the enormity of circumcision.

It is far too horrific to be considered a standard "Parenting choice".


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smlwieber*
First I would like to appologize that I have not read the entire thread.

Secondly I am appauled at some of the responces on here. I can not believe that you would severe a friendship or shun someone because of their parenting choices. I can not believe how petty and judgemental some of the posts were. I understand completely how firmly you believe in what you as a parent are doing, but it sickens me that some one would severe a friendship because of it.

I sincerely hope that I do not have any friends like that. It would hurt me deeply to know that someone I thought was a friend could be so cruel.

That being said, attack away.

If you were friends with a woman who was circumcised, let's say her clitoral hood and her labia had been removed when she was a baby, and she wanted to circumcise her daughter at birth to look like her....and let's say you told her about how important it is to normal sexuality for a woman to have her complete genitals, and you told her how painful circumcision is, and how unnecessary, and she DID IT ANYWAY because it was so important to her that her daughter's genitals looked like hers....

.....would you respect her "parenting choice?" Would you continue the friendship? Please look into your heart, think about what you know about your own genitals and sexuality, imagine your friend's baby girl strapped down and her clitoral hood and labia sliced away without anesthesia, and answer honestly. Would you really still want to be friends with the mama?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
If you were friends with a woman who was circumcised, let's say her clitoral hood and her labia had been removed when she was a baby, and she wanted to circumcise her daughter at birth to look like her....and let's say you told her about how important it is to normal sexuality for a woman to have her complete genitals, and you told her how painful circumcision is, and how unnecessary, and she DID IT ANYWAY because it was so important to her that her daughter's genitals looked like hers....

.....would you respect her "parenting choice?" Would you continue the friendship? Please look into your heart, think about what you know about your own genitals and sexuality, imagine your friend's baby girl strapped down and her clitoral hood and labia sliced away without anesthesia, and answer honestly. Would you really still want to be friends with the mama?









: Male circumcision is just as terrible and traumatic as female circumcision. Culturally it's not, but physically to the child affected it most certainly is









For most of us it's not even a judgemental thing... it's just something that's SO disgusting and abhorrent to us that we would not be able to relate well or at all to someone who HAVING ALL THE FACTS would choose such a thing for merely cosmetic purposes. We haven't said that we would judge someone who didn't know what they were doing or even who had a somewhat legitimate reason such as religion (I cannot judge or blame people because of that though I know some here could... I blame the religious leaders rather than the followers...) or blindly trusting their doctor (in that case I blame the doctor who should be informed).

love and peace.


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## akspinali (Jun 11, 2006)

Sorry, i'm new to this. What is the info on circ? Unnecessary I know, but why so dreadfully bad?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *akspinali*
Sorry, i'm new to this. What is the info on circ? Unnecessary I know, but why so dreadfully bad?

Read on this board for a while. Why is female circumcision so dreadfully bad? Those are the same reasons male genital mutilation is dreadfully bad too.

A reader's digest version (to get you started): Mainly because it chops off sensitive tissue that can never be replaced and it's a personal decision that should be made by the person who will have to live with the repercussions of the decision (the CHILD who will someday grow up and have mutilated genitals possibly and probably against his/her wishes). I'm not against grown-ups legally making the decision to circumcise their OWN penises, but that decision should not be up to anyone else. I fully support the right of grown-up women to decide to be circumcised as well









For me it's also political somewhat. Being a libertarian I fully support personal freedoms as long as those freedoms do not harm or take freedoms from others. The freedom to mutilate your child's genitals takes away your child's freedom to decide what to do with HIS (or her) body and takes away your child's right to have intact genitals. It also is very harmful to the child and his/her future sexual partners as well (female arousal syndrome, for example, is thought to be caused by being with circumcised men for many years). Stick around! You'll find tons of info here









love and peace.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Trumpetplaya pretty much has it covered there.

Basically it permantly robs a human being of their choice over whether they wish to have erogenous tissue coating their genitals or not in a fashion which puts their life and health in danger for no health gain whatsoever.

That is enough right?


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## mijumom (Feb 28, 2004)

Why can't people just stay friends if they feel comfortable and not if they don't? I just don't get why there has to be any contention on this issue. As of right now, circumcision is accepted by half the mainstream so you can't expect everyone to "get it". If I have friend who annoys me or seems like a "bad" parent or I don't enjoy being around them, then I won't be friends with them. I just don't really see this as having a one size fits all answer.

What about being vegetarian and having friends who eat meat? I couldn't deal with that at one point and now I can.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *akspinali*
Sorry, i'm new to this. What is the info on circ? Unnecessary I know, but why so dreadfully bad?

A great place to start is http://research.cirp.org, which describes (with pictures) the most sensitive part of the penis (the ridged band of the foreskin).


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

:

Why is it so necesary for some of you to tell me who *I* have to be friends with?

I have friends with circ'd sons. I have a circ'd son. Once we knew what we had done, we regretted it. I do not drop friends because they have made uninformed mistakes.
I do drop friends who either refuse to look at the facts or look at the facts and say "too bad; I'm gonna mutilate my infant boy anyway"

I also refused to remain friends with a man who raped his DDs. Same thing *IMO*. The question was would I remain friends with someone who chose to circ. My answer was "not if they were informed or refused to look at the facts because she might feel bad if she did"







:

That is MY choice, not yours...

It is not a parenting choice just because it's legal. *IMO* It's an immoral and actually illegal, just not enforced crime.

(It can't be illegal for baby girls and not illegal for baby boys; that is simply against the law in this country)


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

I have friends that I love dearly that had a circumcision done on at least one of their sons. I feel sad every time I see them, especially the ones that were done without anesthesia. But they didn't know any better. I need them in my life and I can't let it affect how I feel about them. It does in a way, but I don't let it rule me.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

5 pages already eh?

I just can't get over some of the comments like:

Quote:

i'd hate to think someone would stop being my friend becasue of a choice i made reguarding MY children
IT IS NOT YOUR CHOICE!!! Not your body, not your choice!

For the people making comments like the one above, if I were your friend, and I gave birth to a beautiful baby girl and you came to visit me and I said "Ohhh poor Suzie, I had her circ'd today". Would you be friends with me????? Probably not....because she was a circ'd female. So it's horribly wrong to circ a female but not a male. I just don't get it.

Like I had said in my original posts.....this girl KNEW all of the reasons not to circ....but thought a circ'd penis looks "nicer". Stupid stupid.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

We had our first son circ'd. Obviously it is something I regret very much. Our 2nd ds is intact, and all future children will be left whole as well. I would be in no place to judge a friend who had her boys circ'd out of ignorance. However, I have tried to convince several pregnant friends not to circ their boys and they did it anyway. After that, I just never felt the same way towards them. I didn't officially denounce them as a friend, but I just feel kind of sick to my stomach when we talk. So I haven't completely dropped them as friends, but just kind of let our friendships distance and fizzle out. I am still clinging to the hope of changing their minds before they have any more kids. If I totally dropped them as friends, to me that is also missing an opportunity to change their minds. Maybe I couldn't save some of their sons, but there is always hope for the next.


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## kellyengel (Apr 29, 2006)

I would not stop being someones friend because they didn't agree with me (and that is what this boils down to) Each parent is entitled to make the best decision they are capable of for their child/children. For the record, I think it's best not to circ but our son had to be circ'd at age 4 due to medical reasons....so according to the majority on this forum I should be kicked to the curb because I made a different decision for my son.

Yikes...alot of the posts on this thread scream hipocracy. Acceptance, tolerance who needs it right...let's just stay friends with people that do exactly as we think they should. Sorry ladies..no thanks.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyengel*
I would not stop being someones friend because they didn't agree with me (and that is what this boils down to) Each parent is entitled to make the best decision they are capable of for their child/children. For the record, I think it's best not to circ but our son had to be circ'd at age 4 due to medical reasons....so according to the majority on this forum I should be kicked to the curb because I made a different decision for my son.

Yikes...alot of the posts on this thread scream hipocracy. Acceptance, tolerance who needs it right...let's just stay friends with people that do exactly as we think they should. Sorry ladies..no thanks.

Hey there Kelly, welcome to MDC.

Sorry if there was any lack of clarity in effect here but when we refer to circumcision here what most of us actually mean is RIC, i.e. an operation performed without any medical point upon a healthy infant soon after birth that amputates functioning erogenous tissue using mere speculative reasoning.

As your son actually had a medical condition no one here will hold it against you. It is just seen as a sad occurance that he had to go through it, a little like a hysterectomy really.

What was he circumcised for exactly?


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## KatyMom (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
As your son actually had a medical condition no one here will hold it against you. It is just seen as a sad occurance that he had to go through it, a little like a hysterectomy really.

I'm deeply offended by that comparison. I feel you should educate yourself more on the physical and mental effects of a hysterectomy before you make any more comparisons like that.

While the child being circumcised for a medical condition is an unfortunate thing. He healed, hopefully without incident, and will be able to go on with his normal reproductive life.

On the other hand, I was cut almost in half, I had 187 internal stiches, I lost all of my reproductive capablilities, and I lost some of my hormonal functions (I kept my ovaries but they have decreased production due to low blood flow). It was an extremely invasive procedure. I know, I read the surgical report and all the juicy details about what position I was in for preop exam and what instrument was put where. It also took me 12 weeks to be released from my surgeon's care.

So to read an uninformed comment like yours is infuriating and offensive.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatyMom*
I'm deeply offended by that comparison. I feel you should educate yourself more on the physical and mental effects of a hysterectomy before you make any more comparisons like that.

While the child being circumcised for a medical condition is an unfortunate thing. He healed, hopefully without incident, and will be able to go on with his normal reproductive life.

On the other hand, I was cut almost in half, I had 187 internal stiches, I lost all of my reproductive capablilities, and I lost some of my hormonal functions (I kept my ovaries but they have decreased production due to low blood flow). It was an extremely invasive procedure. I know, I read the surgical report and all the juicy details about what position I was in for preop exam and what instrument was put where. It also took me 12 weeks to be released from my surgeon's care.

So to read an uninformed comment like yours is infuriating and offensive.

I am very sorry you had to have a hysterectomy. There is no doubt that it is a terrible thing to go through, whether or not it was actually medically necessary. (I know that far too many doctors do hysterectomies when they are unnecessary, without regard to the lifelong impacts on women - I know it is one of the most over-prescribed surgeries in this country. I am not saying *yours* was unnecessary.)

I do take exception to one of your statements, though -

Quote:

He healed, hopefully without incident, and will be able to go on with his normal reproductive life.
Circumcision is definitely not as invasive as hysterectomy, it is not major surgery, it does not involve hormones, etc. but it does have lifelong impacts on a man's sexuality, and it can have serious complications. It can cut short a man's reproductive and sexual life - circed men become impotent years earlier than intact men. Babies can and do die as a result of routine infant circumcision in this country, and many have complications above and beyond the complication of the loss of the foreskin.

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html

I think what circumcision and hysterectomy have in common -- even if they are not equal in terms of the scope of surgery, the number of stitches, blood loss, healing time, etc. -- is that they are far too often performed without adequate medical justification by doctors who do not inform their patients (or their parents) of the lifelong impacts of the procedure. Consumer Reports puts both on the list of "12 surgeries you may be better off without" :

http://www.consumerreports.org/mg/fr..._surgeries.htm

A million baby boys are circed every year in this country at birth without medical justification. That is the type of circumcision we are discussing in this thread - the ones that are done without any medical reason whatsoever.

Even those babies who escape circ at birth are often circumcised for no good medical reason - for "phimosis," for example, or "repeated infections" that can be directly traced to bad medical advice to retract for cleaning from birth (which causes damage). The rates of "medically necessary" circumcisions in this country are many times greater those in more enlightened countries such as Sweden.

So no one should make light of a massive surgery like hysterectomy - but I think the point of comparison is in its lack of necessity, and its lifelong effects.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

i am new, but no, this wasn't talked about elsewhere, least not elsewhere that i visit.
i was just wandering by, thought i had a little opinion to tell.
thats about it.


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

I'm really trying to understand here....honestly! I'm against routine circ, but I would not drop a friend if that was the only factor involved. My choice, and others have their choice...I was just giving my opinion on my original post that I don't agree and I thought it was a shame. - again I don't see how this thread is that horrible. Folks that have diffrent views are expressing them! The thread topic was posed as a question, correct?

What I'm a bit confused on. My husband was circ'd for "normalacy" reasons and my brother was circ'd for "religious" reasons. Both of which I don't agree with now. But my husband has had a wonderful healthy sexual and reproductive and all around healthy life. He would never ask for more....just doesn't seem to get any better than it is. He is happy (and now, too though is against circ because it just isn't nescessary, not because he's had any problems) and I feel there is no argument that can be made that would do anything other than try to deter him from being happy???? My brother is in the same situation. He is very happy and reproductivily quite happy and loves our mother. Do you think he should feel other wise? I'm just pointing out that while I understand that there are many tragedies and problems caused by circ - it is not always that way, not 100% and being a person who did circ her son before I really knew all the info out there, I want support of raising my son to be proud of who he is, who I am and would never think of planting any kind of seed that he is somehow "doomed". That does not mean I can not be an advocate of non-circ...do some of you think otherwise? What would you say to those friends you have chosen to keep "because they didn't know better" on how to raise their boys?

I really (loosley??)equate this to veganism. It is murder to kill animals to some. Same as murdering a human. Some people think it is that serious and that you should not have the choice to kill an animal. How would you respond to this?

I'm posing these questions as a way to understand...not to argue. We are all trying to change things!


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatyMom*
I'm deeply offended by that comparison. I feel you should educate yourself more on the physical and mental effects of a hysterectomy before you make any more comparisons like that.

While the child being circumcised for a medical condition is an unfortunate thing. He healed, hopefully without incident, and will be able to go on with his normal reproductive life.

On the other hand, I was cut almost in half, I had 187 internal stiches, I lost all of my reproductive capablilities, and I lost some of my hormonal functions (I kept my ovaries but they have decreased production due to low blood flow). It was an extremely invasive procedure. I know, I read the surgical report and all the juicy details about what position I was in for preop exam and what instrument was put where. It also took me 12 weeks to be released from my surgeon's care.

So to read an uninformed comment like yours is infuriating and offensive.

Well I am sorry that I caused you offence.

My point was this though: when I read your description I felt immense and deep sympathy for you and what you went through. However when I considered the alternative to leaving the organs in place I recognised that _yes it was required._

There was a need for it to happen otherwise worse would have occured to you, it was awful that it was needed but it _was_ needed.

This is the difference between a routine circumcision and a circumcision of actual medical value, the difference which I was attempting to illustrate. If my methodology offended you then I apologise but I assure you I was am not and was not ignorant of what the surgery entailed.

Furthermore the reproductive life of a circumcised man can hardly be considered "Normal". In so far as the results are the same yes but the process required is devoided of the gliding motion and frenular stimulation and filled with artificial lube.

Assuming, that is, worse complications have not occured.

Never the less I am very sorry for your experience and any and all offence which I caused you.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
I'm really trying to understand here....honestly! I'm against routine circ, but I would not drop a friend if that was the only factor involved. My choice, and others have their choice...I was just giving my opinion on my original post that I don't agree and I thought it was a shame. - again I don't see how this thread is that horrible. Folks that have diffrent views are expressing them! The thread topic was posed as a question, correct?

What I'm a bit confused on. My husband was circ'd for "normalacy" reasons and my brother was circ'd for "religious" reasons. Both of which I don't agree with now. But my husband has had a wonderful healthy sexual and reproductive and all around healthy life. He would never ask for more....just doesn't seem to get any better than it is. He is happy (and now, too though is against circ because it just isn't nescessary, not because he's had any problems) and I feel there is no argument that can be made that would do anything other than try to deter him from being happy???? My brother is in the same situation. He is very happy and reproductivily quite happy and loves our mother. Do you think he should feel other wise? I'm just pointing out that while I understand that there are many tragedies and problems caused by circ - it is not always that way, not 100% and being a person who did circ her son before I really knew all the info out there, I want support of raising my son to be proud of who he is, who I am and would never think of planting any kind of seed that he is somehow "doomed". That does not mean I can not be an advocate of non-circ...do some of you think otherwise? What would you say to those friends you have chosen to keep "because they didn't know better" on how to raise their boys?

I really (loosley??)equate this to veganism. It is murder to kill animals to some. Same as murdering a human. Some people think it is that serious and that you should not have the choice to kill an animal. How would you respond to this?

I'm posing these questions as a way to understand...not to argue. We are all trying to change things!

I am very pleased that your husband and your brother are content but this stems primarily from not being fully aware of what they are missing.

With regards to veganism I believe you mean vegetarianism, vegans believe it is unethical to eat or use and animal _products._ I fall into the former category and I can inform you that almost all of my friends do eat meat. In fact I jokingly mentioned this today when a friend of mine said something along the lines of "That bacon looks lovely" and met the reply of "Funny, looks unethical to me..."

I do not push my views when it comes to that issue though, although for some reason I did take issue with her castrating her cats.

I suppose it is all because of my mangled priorities really...

Anyway, funny that you should mention that today.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*

What I'm a bit confused on. My husband was circ'd for "normalacy" reasons and my brother was circ'd for "religious" reasons. Both of which I don't agree with now. But my husband has had a wonderful healthy sexual and reproductive and all around healthy life. He would never ask for more....just doesn't seem to get any better than it is. He is happy (and now, too though is against circ because it just isn't nescessary, not because he's had any problems) and I feel there is no argument that can be made that would do anything other than try to deter him from being happy???? My brother is in the same situation. He is very happy and reproductivily quite happy and loves our mother. Do you think he should feel other wise? I'm just pointing out that while I understand that there are many tragedies and problems caused by circ - it is not always that way, not 100% and being a person who did circ her son before I really knew all the info out there, I want support of raising my son to be proud of who he is, who I am and would never think of planting any kind of seed that he is somehow "doomed". That does not mean I can not be an advocate of non-circ...do some of you think otherwise? What would you say to those friends you have chosen to keep "because they didn't know better" on how to raise their boys?

Two analogies - if you're ever involved in any breastfeeding vs. formula feeding debates, you know how touchy those can get - no one wants to think they've potentially harmed their babies by not breastfeeding them, so many (obviously not all) FFers can get extremely defensive. This includes many women of older generations who didn't have the knowledge and support they needed to learn to BF, and after all their kids are "just fine" so they get upset with the "breast is best" advocacy because it makes them feel guilty.

But we KNOW that breastfeeding in all except an extremly rare handful of situations is biologically optimal, and that formula has health risks ranging from mild to severe (including SIDS). So as breastfeeding advocates we're not trying to make mothers who FF their kids feel guilty, we're trying to educate women who still have the choice to make to BF their present or future babies.

The point of circumcision education and advocacy is not to make circed boys and men feel "less than" (although many do and are extremely angry about their circs and are trying to restore). It is to help people who are still in a position to make the choice know that it does make a difference and that the only person who should be able to make the decision to cut off a normal part of the penis should be the owner of the penis.

Second analogy - female circumcision. In many cultures, female circ consists of removing the prepuce of the clitoris and the labia minora. All of which affects sex but not nearly to the extent that extreme female circ does. In almost all cultures that engage in female circ, you will get a LOT of women defending the practice on the grounds that "I'm circed and I enjoy sex, there's nothing wrong with me." Again, the point of trying to educate about female circ is to protect those (babies and girls) who are still intact, not trying to make adult women feel badly about themselves.

Bottom line -- although we need to be concerned with the feelings of those who were circed or were FFed, and nothing can change the past, the top priority has to be educating and advocating for the future so we don't keep on repeating past mistakes in order to spare the feelings of the circed. Their feelings are important, but not more important than the rights of every person, male or female, to make his or her OWN choices about his or her OWN body.


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## treefolk (Nov 19, 2005)

I understand a bit of what your saying Quirky. I just tend to put a GREAT deal of emphasis on treating the the people in our lives with respect and admiration and blessings in any way shape or form. THAT is what makes people live with happiness. What is it that intact men should be acheiving that cut men cannot. My husband feels that he has acheived a happy sexual life. Why is that not enough? I think I have done a great deal of good talking with women openly about my experiences and how I have come to see circ as something that should be looked at a lot diffrently than it is! I come with kindness, not bitterness.I have neices and nephews who were FF and they are wonderful people, I was FF and I choose to look not how my life could have been better but how blessed I am for such wonderful, loving parents and how much good I have in my life. Some other posts imply that somehow my husband, who is blissfully happy, should start thinking of what MORE he could have had/experienced had he not been cut







: Well, here lies a whole problem with soceity then. So he should just forget all this happyiness BS and become a pissed off male creature that is bitter towards his wonderful and kind mother who volunteers for a women's shelter 2x a week at age 65??? Wow, I ahould clue him in on how he really got the short end of the stick (ooooo - look at my pun!) It is coming across to the fact that only intact men can have healthy and productive reproductive/sexual lives and if you happen to be happy being cut then you need to be told otherwise. Does this not seem ludacris?

Again, because of some posts....I take this as healthy discussion, I'm learning a lot on how some people think, there are VAST diffrences in how folks see things and although I think it's crazy, I respect that there is a whole other side that thinks I'm just as nuts!


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Let's see; I think most of my points have been taken care of, but I do have a problem with anyone who says "My DH has a good sex life and he's circ'd" Too many people use this as an excuse to go ahead and mutilate their DSs.
My DH had an adequate sex life for many years, but as he gets older, we are noticing definite problems in that area. Mostly ones of inability to maintain an erection. From what I have read, this is more common in men who were circ'd as infants. Although I have no blind studies to back me up.

I don't think anyone here suggests making a point of telling your circ'd DH what he's missing out on. what I am saying for myself is that I cannot be friends with someone who gave permission for their DS to mutilated without his permission for purely cosmetic reasons. Any more that I could be friends with someone who slammed their infant up against a wall causing lifelong brain injuries...

and I am not crazy







:


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
Some other posts imply that somehow my husband, who is blissfully happy, should start thinking of what MORE he could have had/experienced had he not been cut







:

Well, here lies a whole problem with soceity then. So he should just forget all this happyiness BS and become a pissed off male creature that is bitter towards his wonderful and kind mother who volunteers for a women's shelter 2x a week at age 65???

Wow, I ahould clue him in on how he really got the short end of the stick (ooooo - look at my pun!) It is coming across to the fact that only intact men can have healthy and productive reproductive/sexual lives and if you happen to be happy being cut then you need to be told otherwise

Eh, I don't think men need to be pissed off at their moms for being cut, for the most part-- it's important to acknowlege that most women had NO choice back in the days when my husband was cut. The mamas were knocked out on twilight sleep, the dads were in the waiting room, and even if that weren't the case, the docs-with-authority insisted that circ was necessary and beneficial.

But it's also important to me that men come to understand what a foreskin's functions are. If, by learning about what it is and why they have no business depriving their sons of it, they come to feel robbed, that is nobody's fault but the truth.

I don't tell my husband that he's "doomed" by being cut. I do explain that my objection to infant circumcision isn't just about "lack of medical necessity" (people do completely unnecessary stuff to their kids every day, lol) or about temporary pain (people do stuff that's painful to their kids every day, too.)

I object to circumcision almost solely on the basis of the longterm consequences to the act, and that unfortunately includes a lot of the problems we are experiencing right now.

As my beloved DH creeps up on 40, the effects become more and more pronounced; can I look at a woman who chose to do that to her son and not have my stomach turn with sickness both for the unimaginable torture her baby went through, and for the sorrows that await him down the road?

I still can't do it. The sickened sensation is too real for me to deny. Perhaps someday I will be like the Buddha and reach a place where I can look past this kind of thing,







-- but for now, I can't really be close to someone who looks the other way on the issue.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
My husband feels that he has acheived a happy sexual life. Why is that not enough? I think I have done a great deal of good talking with women openly about my experiences and how I have come to see circ as something that should be looked at a lot diffrently than it is! I come with kindness, not bitterness.I have neices and nephews who were FF and they are wonderful people, I was FF. Some other posts imply that somehow my husband, who is blissfully happy, should start thinking of what MORE he could have had/experienced had he not been cut







: Well, here lies a whole problem with soceity then.

For me, I've never approach this as a sexual issue but human rights issue. Human rights issue of a child.

Yes. I am sure your DH's sexlife has been a bliss but it does not take away the *fact* that most sensitive part of his body was taken away from him when he was helpless baby and in a very very cruel and painful way. When you think that act - how can you approach with kindness? Or approve it? Maybe I am horrible person but it is impossible for me to approach child abuse with loving kindness. And that's what circumcision is where I live - abuse.

No one is suggesting that your husband should change to a bitter monster or that you should cut ties with your DH's mother. But no matter how much she has volunteered in a shelter does not take away the fact that when your DH was a baby, he was tied down to a cold board and his genitals where literally crushed and sliced. It does not take away the fact that your husband can never experience sex (and neither do you)as nature intended. If we turned the table and think all the different forms of FGM ... would you advice circumcised women this way?

Past cannot be changed. To me the key is what parents are doing today. If someone support genital cutting of babies in today's world(after all the info is out there!)I could not be a friend of that person. The key is to end this vicious cycle.

And I don't know why you bring FF to this? Formula feeding and cutting child's genitals have nothing to do with each other.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*

And I don't know why you bring FF to this? Formula feeding and cutting child's genitals have nothing to do with each other.

I brought that up as an analogy. See my post above. The point is, we should not stop advocating for intact babies because we might hurt the feelings of those who are circed and we should not stop advocating for breastfeeding because we might hurt the feelings of those who FF.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treefolk*
Some other posts imply that somehow my husband, who is blissfully happy, *should start thinking of what MORE he could have* had/experienced had he not been cut







: *Well, here lies a whole problem with soceity then.* So he should just forget all this happyiness BS and become a pissed off male creature that is bitter towards his wonderful and kind mother who volunteers for a women's shelter 2x a week at age 65???

Generally speaking, society does have a problem with this constant need for more. But I don't think that this manufactured need for more is the same as being aware of what was taken away, or the way nature intended one to be. If someone was circ'ed, they can't get that back, and if someone was FF, they can't change that either, but the constant excuses from the same society of wanting more about how it was good enough is baloney. Why is it okay to want the world for their children in education, love and happiness, but then to settle for what was good enough for other things? I don't think anyone should throw away their happpiness, but I do think that they need to be aware of things that should not have been. It's the good enough attitude that perpetuates the circ'ing and much of the supposed need for formula (read that to know that I am aware that there are people who have to use it, so don't bother flaming there, that's why I said much, not all







). So many people don't want admit that something in their life might not have been right, or perfect or whatever, so they end up defending it, instead admitting that there may have been a problem and educating others or atleast giving them a reason to question it and research it on their own.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimkabob5*
I have friends that I love dearly that had a circumcision done on at least one of their sons. I feel sad every time I see them, especially the ones that were done without anesthesia. But they didn't know any better. I need them in my life and I can't let it affect how I feel about them. It does in a way, but I don't let it rule me.

this is how I feel. I feel good though that I have changed a few of my friends' minds about circumcision, but I don't expect to change everyone's mind.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Yes, I would.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
But it's also important to me that men come to understand what a foreskin's functions are. If, by learning about what it is and why they have no business depriving their sons of it, they come to feel robbed, that is nobody's fault but the truth.

A perfect point.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

I think it would depend on several factors, were they truly informed- I wasn't when I allowed xh to circ our son. If my friends did it with out information I would still be friends with them.
As a Christian, if they did it out of "religious conviction" I do not think I could be friends with them. Paul is pretty clear on the nessesity of circ.
Although I do not agree with it I think I could be friends with some one of another faith who did it for religious reasons. I do hope that one day it is illegal, but until then I cannot argue their religion.
But here's where I hope hope hope my sister never haves a boy. She and her husband mock religion, and are athiests, but they celebrate Jewish and Christian holidays for their cultural / historical significance. They said that if they ever had a boy they would do the 8th day ritual circ with a mohel. I will NOT ATTEND, and by doing so will offend my whole family. Keep praying that they have all girls, I'm a wimp and don't wanna go through losing my only sister!!!


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
I think it would depend on several factors, were they truly informed- I wasn't when I allowed xh to circ our son. If my friends did it with out information I would still be friends with them.
As a Christian, if they did it out of "religious conviction" I do not think I could be friends with them. Paul is pretty clear on the nessesity of circ.
Although I do not agree with it I think I could be friends with some one of another faith who did it for religious reasons. I do hope that one day it is illegal, but until then I cannot argue their religion.
But here's where I hope hope hope my sister never haves a boy. She and her husband mock religion, and are athiests, but they celebrate Jewish and Christian holidays for their cultural / historical significance. They said that if they ever had a boy they would do the 8th day ritual circ with a mohel. I will NOT ATTEND, and by doing so will offend my whole family. Keep praying that they have all girls, I'm a wimp and don't wanna go through losing my only sister!!!


Why follow the Jewish Religion on this? the Christian Religion forbids Circumcising.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Why follow the Jewish Religion on this? the Christian Religion forbids Circumcising.

Are you asking why my sister would? Or why I could be friends with a person of Jewish faith who circ'd and not one of Christian faith? As to the second question it is because I understand most aspects of Christianity and have studied it, I have not studied Judeism (Sp?)


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
Are you asking why my sister would? Or why I could be friends with a person of Jewish faith who circ'd and not one of Christian faith? As to the second question it is because I understand most aspects of Christianity and have studied it, I have not studied Judeism (Sp?)


If your sister was an athiest, why choose one over the other? This can be continued in PM's if you like, dont wanna get the thread moderated.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
If your sister was an athiest, why choose one over the other?

Because she comes from a Jewish family presumably...


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
Because she comes from a Jewish family presumably...

Would make no difference to a true Athiest, but I can't get into that here.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
Would make no difference to a true Athiest, but I can't get into that here.

Although I am aware further elaboration upon my view is innappropriate in this venue I should add that it is precisely the same as your own.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

If your sister was an athiest, why choose one over the other? This can be continued in PM's if you like, dont wanna get the thread moderated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
Although I am aware further elaboration upon my view is innappropriate in this venue I should add that it is precisely the same as your own.

And you guys see why I hope my sis never has sons. BTW- bil describes himself as culturally Jewish, sis was raised as I was celebrating Christian holidays. I will pm you guys if she ever gets pregnant with a boy. It'll get ugly and I'll be called intolerant- so I'm hoping that it never gets to that point.
LMK if I need to edit this- I'm used to discussing circ on a Christian board where religious discussion is OK.


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## bewitchedmama (Apr 25, 2006)

my son is intact, and he is now 6 facing phimosis of a more severe nature--therefore we go to the specialist in July to determine the next course of action--i'm not thrilled about having to face circumcising him now, and the emotionality i am feeling about doing it is beyond my realm of experience

i don't consider myself a bad mother, or having taken bad medical advice or a child abuser, nor mutilating my son
he can't choose--however, it isn't my body, but i am legally and morally obligated to protect and provide my son the best possible life he can have--
if i have to do it, why not now, rather than puberty approaching as the penis has grown larger and more possible problems arise then? should I scar him horrifically as a prepubescent adolescent rather than a 6year old? hmmm, who's to say what the best decision is--should i now not have another son? will I be judged as a bad mother if i circ my next one?

who's to say what's right and wrong, there is no TRUE perfect choice and those of you who chose to judge based on other people's choices, might ought to take out your manual on "appropriate moral behavior for humans" and send me a copy--i'd like to see it

just thought i'd throw that in too


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Is he not peeing? Can you share what the nature of his phimosis is?

eta: I think there is a perfect choice, and that is what you did: to leave him as he was born, as nature intended him to be. If problems arise later, they can be dealt with. In other ways than surgically, in almost all case, thank goodness!


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

As I said earlier, I wouldn't be friends with someone who chose to cut their son for no good reason (ie society, religion, looks, etc), but if a friend's son had a medical condition which didn't respond to nonsurgical treatment I'd absolutely support her 100%. There's a WORLD of difference between RIC and a medically necessary circ, imo.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

PS did you see the spin off from this thread in TAO?


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bewitchedmama*
my son is intact, and he is now 6 facing phimosis of a more severe nature--therefore we go to the specialist in July to determine the next course of action--i'm not thrilled about having to face circumcising him now, and the emotionality i am feeling about doing it is beyond my realm of experience

i don't consider myself a bad mother, or having taken bad medical advice or a child abuser, nor mutilating my son
he can't choose--however, it isn't my body, but i am legally and morally obligated to protect and provide my son the best possible life he can have--
if i have to do it, why not now, rather than puberty approaching as the penis has grown larger and more possible problems arise then? should I scar him horrifically as a prepubescent adolescent rather than a 6year old? hmmm, who's to say what the best decision is--should i now not have another son? will I be judged as a bad mother if i circ my next one?

who's to say what's right and wrong, there is no TRUE perfect choice and those of you who chose to judge based on other people's choices, might ought to take out your manual on "appropriate moral behavior for humans" and send me a copy--i'd like to see it

just thought i'd throw that in too

I suffered from phimosis, I found a cure which required neither surgery nor medication but I suppose I was not the most severe of cases.

But please remember that just retracting does not phimosis make, that might happen later and make sure you get the right specialist because even here in England where RIC is non-existant they seem to be a bit circ-happy. Ask him about steroid creams, prepuplastory and the dorsal slit.

If he does not know what "The Beauge Method" is then run a mile.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caloli*
PS did you see the spin off from this thread in TAO?

What is it?







:


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bewitchedmama*
my son is intact, and he is now 6 facing phimosis of a more severe nature--therefore we go to the specialist in July to determine the next course of action--i'm not thrilled about having to face circumcising him now, and the emotionality i am feeling about doing it is beyond my realm of experience

i don't consider myself a bad mother, or having taken bad medical advice or a child abuser, nor mutilating my son
he can't choose--however, it isn't my body, but i am legally and morally obligated to protect and provide my son the best possible life he can have--
if i have to do it, why not now, rather than puberty approaching as the penis has grown larger and more possible problems arise then? should I scar him horrifically as a prepubescent adolescent rather than a 6year old? hmmm, who's to say what the best decision is--should i now not have another son? will I be judged as a bad mother if i circ my next one?

who's to say what's right and wrong, there is no TRUE perfect choice and those of you who chose to judge based on other people's choices, might ought to take out your manual on "appropriate moral behavior for humans" and send me a copy--i'd like to see it

just thought i'd throw that in too


SO many American doctors are ignorant about how to properly care for an intact penis........that they see "problems" when they aren't there. If I were you, I'd contact Dr. Paul Fleiss in Los Angeles. PM me for his email address. Because you're right......you are obligated to protect your son. Which, to me, would include contacting Dr. Fleiss for his opinion.

"Phimosis" means "closed foreskin" which a 6 yo. is SUPPOSED to have! He's not supposed to be able to retract until puberty! (Some boys do retract before then, but it's normal not to, also.)

Please do not try to force retraction and do not let anyone else force retraction, either.

And read this article from Mothering: (written by Dr. Fleiss)

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

"The tightness of the foreskin is a safety mechanism that protects the glans and urethra from direct exposure to contaminants and germs. The tight foreskin also keeps the boy's glans warm, clean, and moist, and when he is an adult, it will give him pleasure. *As long as your son can urinate, he is perfectly normal*. There is no age by which a child's foreskin must be retractable. Do not let your doctor or anyone try to retract your child's foreskin. Optimal hygiene of the penis demands that the foreskin of infants and children be left alone. Premature retraction rips the skin of the penis open and causes your child extreme pain. There is no legitimate medical justification for retraction. The child's discomfort is proof of that."


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bewitchedmama*
my son is intact, and he is now 6 facing phimosis of a more severe nature--therefore we go to the specialist in July to determine the next course of action--i'm not thrilled about having to face circumcising him now, and the emotionality i am feeling about doing it is beyond my realm of experience

i don't consider myself a bad mother, or having taken bad medical advice or a child abuser, nor mutilating my son
he can't choose--however, it isn't my body, but i am legally and morally obligated to protect and provide my son the best possible life he can have--
if i have to do it, why not now, rather than puberty approaching as the penis has grown larger and more possible problems arise then? should I scar him horrifically as a prepubescent adolescent rather than a 6year old? hmmm, who's to say what the best decision is--should i now not have another son? will I be judged as a bad mother if i circ my next one?

who's to say what's right and wrong, there is no TRUE perfect choice and those of you who chose to judge based on other people's choices, might ought to take out your manual on "appropriate moral behavior for humans" and send me a copy--i'd like to see it

just thought i'd throw that in too

If steroid creams can't do it, why go for a radical circ? Wouldn't a simple dorsal slit work? I've seen Sue Johanson ('The Sunday Night Sex Show') advocate a dorsal slit at most... and even then, wait until the late-teen years before evaluating your choices!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap*
I've seen Sue Johanson ('The Sunday Night Sex Show') advocate a dorsal slit at most...









That lady sure seems to know alot! More than I want to know, I think.


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## ntengwall (Feb 21, 2003)

I circ'd my first two boys and not the third--we wised up! My sister-in-law knows this and has even seen the video Intact Facts (I teach childbirth classes and she took them with her first (a girl) and saw the video then and also took a refresher with her second and saw the video again. I just *happened* to be showing it for the class she decided to come to! LOL

But I guess it didn't do any good! I was at the birth center, natural birth of her son and as soon as everyone left the room and it was just me, her and the baby, I said something to the effect of, "Now you have to decide what to do about circ." I looked her in the eye and said, " You know I did it twice and decided not to do it again--please don't do it to Evan." She said she wasn't sure (and that's when I knew she was going to do it).
I went to her house a few days later and took her The Case Against Circ article and Dr Fleiss' phone #. She said her Ped. told her that she has seen way too many horror stories with INTACT babies. I told her that instead of paying me (they wanted to give me a spa day) for my doula services all I asked of her was to at least call and talk to Dr Fleiss. I tried so damn hard to save that little boy's foreskin!!!
I never heard anything from her over the next few days and found out later that she had it done in their house on the 7th day by a Moyl (sp?). They are catholic.
Ever since then (and he is 2 now) I feel disgusted with her. How in the world do you see Intact Facts TWICE, read The Case Against Circ, read Circumsion, What Your Dr May Not Tell You and then STILL do it??????
We used to be close but it has definetly changed how I feel about her and how I look at her as a mother.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ntengwall*
I never heard anything from her over the next few days and found out later that she had it done in their house on the 7th day by a Moyl (sp?). They are catholic.









What's a Moyl and how does that relate to being Catholic?


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## ntengwall (Feb 21, 2003)

A Moyl (mohel) is the person in the Jewish faith who comes to do the briss (circumcision). I was just stating that she is catholic to show that there was no religious reason for them circ. They used a moyl because it was who would come to their home and do it after they left the birth center. You know...what was best for THEM. If they really had their child's best interest at heart they would have left him intact or at least waited until he was old enough to have pain meds and use a pediatric urologist.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ntengwall*
A Moyl (mohel) is the person in the Jewish faith who comes to do the briss (circumcision). I was just stating that she is catholic to show that there was no religious reason for them circ. They used a moyl because it was who would come to their home and do it after they left the birth center. You know...what was best for THEM. If they really had their child's best interest at heart they would have left him intact or at least waited until he was old enough to have pain meds and use a pediatric urologist.

Ah, I gotcha now.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

don't know if i've posted on this thread or not, but i have to say, it would be a fast deal breaker for me. im in no way ok with it.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

This thread is almost two years old. Did you have a reason for bumping it now?


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## twixer (Dec 13, 2013)

luckily, my friends are true, non-judgmental friends.


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## julie128 (Jan 9, 2003)

I would not want to be friends with someone so petty as to not be friends with me over something like circumcision.


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## notnowmaybelater (Aug 30, 2014)

julie128 said:


> I would not want to be friends with someone so petty as to not be friends with me over something like circumcision.


Petty? Some people view it as child abuse.. even if it is a socially acceptable form of abuse.

I personally wouldn't unfriend someone over circumcision, but I wouldn't support them.
But if I was dating someone pro-circ, I would end that relationship.


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## loonbean (Jan 13, 2013)

good god get over yourself


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## loonbean (Jan 13, 2013)

equating circumcision to abuse is foolish... it diminishes what true child abuse is. in any case, whether or not i circumcise my son, or your friend circumcises their son is none of your business.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Everyone - please post respectfully or step out of this discussion. You can certainly share your opinion of not being concerned about whether your friends circ or not but you should do so without flippant or denigrating remarks against the opinions and feelings of others.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

loonbean said:


> equating circumcision to abuse is foolish... it diminishes what true child abuse is. in any case, whether or not i circumcise my son, or your friend circumcises their son is none of your business.


You forgot to add, "in my opinion," to the end of your assertions. I see forced prepuce amputation as a human rights violation, whether the sex of the person being altered is male, female or intersex. But the reality is, our opinions do not matter. The only valid opinion on modifications made to a persons body is the owner of that body.

Not your body, not your choice.

Sus


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## MeganKulage (Sep 13, 2014)

I have. I have some friends who I have been friends with forever, and they have circed sons. But, it was before I even learned about it all, so I didnt even give them the info. I do stay friends with them because, cant change it. But, I do leave friendships when they have the info and do it anyways.


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## MeganKulage (Sep 13, 2014)

I view it as sexual assault. It is sexual because it is the genitals, and assault because of obvious reasons. You know, slicing off the tip of the penis.


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## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

loonbean said:


> equating circumcision to abuse is foolish... it diminishes what true child abuse is. in any case, whether or not i circumcise my son, or your friend circumcises their son is none of your business.


And if I have a girl and decide to have all of her labial folds removed? Is would you consider that to be "true" abuse?? (hint: female genital mutilation illegal in most "developed" countries)

Removing healthy skin from the genitals (or any other body part) of another person without their consent would be called assault according to the law, but we do it to infants so somehow it's ok.

There are medical reason for circumcision, but they are few and far between. If you used the same reasons that most people give for having boys cut "it looks better", "it's cleaner", "it lowers risk of infection" for wanting the identical procedure done to a baby girl you'd be lucky to keep custody of that baby girl


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## loonbean (Jan 13, 2013)

IMHO, if you equate circumcision to child abuse and are so vehemently against it, then you are simply a judgmental Anti-Semite


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## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

loonbean said:


> IMHO, if you equate circumcision to child abuse and are so vehemently against it, then you are simply a judgmental Anti-Semite


Do you have any way to know that your son will decide to follow the Jewish faith when he is an adult? No, you don't. So you are making a permanent decision about his body based on views that _he might not ever share_.

I'm actually Christian, and have very strong views regarding my faith. My child will be raised learning about all religions and make his own decision when he's old enough to do so. If he decides that the Jewish faith is the right one for him, he can decide to have his foreskin removed and I will support him in that decision 100%.

Not agreeing with circumcision has nothing to do with being an anti-Semite. It has everything to do with respecting the body integrity of another human being.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

loonbean said:


> IMHO, if you equate circumcision to child abuse and are so vehemently against it, then you are simply a judgmental Anti-Semite[/QUOTE
> 
> What? It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with basic personal human rights !!
> 
> But since you bring up religion - forcing yours on a baby in an indelible way rather detracts from the notion of "Freedom of choice".


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I've unfriended aquaintenses and distant family on Facebook for doing this. I don't have any friends who have, the ones with older boys didn't and all my kid free or pregnant friends said they wouldn't. 

If I took the time to educate someone about why RIC is wrong and they would still choose to do it I know I'd never be able to respect them. And doubt I'd be willing to continue a friendship.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

eightyferrettoes said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *New Mexico Beach*
> _I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you._
> 
> That's just it; it's not a "personal decision" any more than FGM is. It's a violation of a kid's basic human rights, and someone who knows the facts and chooses to do it anyway has just demonstrated a major lack of character in my book.


Completely agree with this


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

loonbean said:


> IMHO, if you equate circumcision to child abuse and are so vehemently against it, then you are simply a judgmental Anti-Semite


So, what about all the religious people who are Intactivists? Ever seen www.beyondthebris.com? Think everyone is still doing it?http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE8AR0M720121128?irpc=932 Do you know Miriam Pollack? How about Leonard Glick, MD or Paul Fleiss, MD?

It's only anti-semitism if a person only wants to do away with religous cutting. Otherwise, it's a red herring.

Cutting off healthy, functional body parts of another person is wrong no matter what your reason & no matter the sex of the person. Body mods are for adults to choose for themselves.

May you have girls.

All the best,
Sus


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## Juic3boxx (Nov 9, 2014)

I was wondering if any of the men here or wives of men here have ever considered circumcision for their child or children? What do you think I could say to someone that wants their son circumcised? I am trying to protect my nephew from this horrible practice. I have sent numerous articles and they have even watched a video or two on the subject. They say they have researched it, but still want it done. I first would like to say that I have never met anyone that after fully researching the subject would or could still put their days old infant through this. I have an intact son b/c i saw something about "why i chose not to circumcise". And it made me research and research some more. I will admit that if my daughter had been born a boy I would have ignorantly circumcised her. That's all I knew. That's what seemed normal(at the time). Why wouldn't you circumcise that's what every one does. This was my thought process. My mother was the only other person that had tried to get me to change my mind. But thankfully I had a daughter instead of a son. I have tried to explain to these people that my son hasn't had any problems thus far. Kind of using him as a first hand experience(someone they know personally) hoping to change their minds. You all have heard of that man that had to have it done later in life b/c of one reason or another, and it was so painful. Well they are going to do it to him so young b/c he won't remember it. Sorry I just feel so sick right now. From what i gather they want it done b/c men on the mothers side of the family have a "history" of "having" to be circumcised later in life and they " don't want him to have to go through it later or remember it"!!! My thing is if it turns into a medical necessity then ok, but not to try and prevent something that may never happen to him. I am really saddened by this and want to at least try one more time for my nephew, to show that at least one person cares about his general integrity. How would you men feel if someone in your family came to you after knowing that you were hurt by your circ as an adult and told you that they had tried to get your parents to leave you intact, but your parents didn't listen? I have been asked by my brother not to send anymore information. That they had made up their minds. I really feel like sitting down and really pouring my heart out to them in a letter, pleading with them to leave my nephew intact. Keeping a copy and if nephew ever wants to know I will show him the letter I sent to his parents. What do you think? I know this is not my child, but everyone that is expecting I give them info on this subject.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

This happened with our first nephew, DH's brother's son. Me, DH and their mom all talked to them but they said they didn't want to hear any more. DH even made a last ditch appeal at the hospital, but they did it anyway. It was very painful for all of us, and to be honest, it took me a year to get over my anger at BIL. But, you can't stop talking to family, so I had to get over it. 

Some people just won't change their minds, ever. I think it is a function of personality type and maturity to be able to see new ideas and not be threatened, but either way, sometimes you lose.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Two things I've done or considered when people don't seem to be willing to leave their kids whole:

Send an info pack from TheWHOLENetwork that contains a whole slue of info on all things circ & intact. I don't know if any of the ones I've had sent have had an effect but of course I hope so.

I've never but have considered offering to pay the parents to keep the kid whole. Show them that someone values their kids whole body. I've thought of asking how much the insurance would pay to have it done & I'll pay them that. Sounds crazy, even to me, but maybe it'd get them to think, just enough more, to leave them be.

My SIL had her premature twins cut whom she was pregnant w/ when I was with my last child. I tried appealing to her, from one mother-to-be to another. No dice. She is truly an obstinate witch & I feel bad for her children. Of course, my saying this comes from years of dealing w/ her, the most recent time when she refused to have her children wash their hands after eating to protect my children from coming in contact w/ allergens & having reactions. Not all people are as willfully ignorant as she is, thankfully.

I know how hard it is to deal w/ this. I've gotten to the point that I don't want to know when people are having their babies because then I figure out when they're likely to be cut.

Oh, one more thing - maybe show them this video? This is an pediatric ER doc who has seen a baby die & seen others come very close. May make them dig their head further in the sand but maybe not? 




Best wishes,
Sus


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## Juic3boxx (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't really look at it as I'm losing, but my poor nephew is losing out on a whole body. His choice doesn't seem to matter to those that should love him the most. If he needed it done when he is older, (because of issues on mother's side; even though I think the problems were caused by wrong information that was given to their mother's) I would be more excepting of it especially if he was the on that was able to make the informed consent. I just feel like I am the only one that cares about him. @mama24-7 I have thought of sending something from the whole network because I really like the info they have and I think it is very informative. I just have a feeling that if I were to send it, it would be a waste of money. Thank you all!


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