# Banalization of Epidurals



## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2004)

I didn't see a post specifically about this; please re-direct me if it is already being discussed somewhere.

I have been doing a lot of reading to educate myself about birth options during my pregnancy, particularly with regard to the (over-)medicalization of what should be normal births. As a result, I've learned about a lot of the negative side effects of receiving an epidural during labour, which is why I'm becoming very concerned about what seems to be a "movement" in mainstream society to banalize epidurals.

First example: a CitiBank commercial in which a woman is about to give birth in a hospital setting, while her husband is concerned about the costs of each procedure - he asks the anesthesiologist, "Is this something I could do?" to which the anesthesiologist responds, condescendingly of course, "The epidural?" There are a bunch of things to do before "resorting" to an epidural - every time I see that commercial, I want to cut up my CitiCard!

Second example: Target store sells first-trimester "fortune tees," one of which says, "An epidural is in my near future." How many women have even made decisions about their labour and delivery in the first trimester?!

Obviously, I can write letters to both companies, but I would like to know whether there are any organizations involved in advocating against routine epidurals that are paying attention to this kind of mainstream epidural acceptance "movement." (Or is pregnancy just making me overly sensitive to this issue?)


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## crysmomofthree (Mar 18, 2004)

well I don't know about advertising, but there is some movement in the right direction, my local hospital will not do routine epidurals, you can only get one if you need a c section ( and maybe for other extenuating circumstances) but around here if your dr promises you an epidural prenataly they are lying through their teeth
crystal


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I know exactly what you mean! There does seem to be this very active "pro-epidural" movement. What I can't figure out is if this a conscious thing or just a product of our incredibly screwed up notions about birth here in the US. Most of my friends just assume they will have an epidural and that I am getting one too- umm...no..here are all the risks- I try to tell them- but they can't even conceive of birthing without being totally numb from the waist down.

It makes me so pissed off to see those teeshirts and all the commercials and such that make birth seem nothing but scary, painful, and something to "get through"- basically portraying women as weak and in need of a rescue.

I wish there were something I could do about it- but the epidural has become part of the collective consciousness here in the US.

That is awesome that routine epidurals aren't given in BC!


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## loved (Jun 10, 2002)

Yes - cut up your citi-card and don't shop at Target!!









And tell them why.

The revolution starts here, mama.


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yamilee21*
Second example: Target store sells first-trimester "fortune tees," one of which says, "An epidural is in my near future." How many women have even made decisions about their labour and delivery in the first trimester?!









I don't think I could restrain myself from saying something along the lines of "that's really sad" to the mother I saw wearing that shirt. I've never seen (or heard of before) those. Yikes! Okay, I just typed some true feelings then censored myself cuz I don't wish to offend. That's just waaaaaaaaaay over the line for me.

And to answer your questions about how many women have already made those decisions in the first trimester? Most of them! Before that even. I've known very few women who haven't already decided on the epidural before their first pregnancy. Heck - I was one of them (loooooooong before I ever became pregnant and that's not what I chose once I was). I honestly had never known of anyone who'd done otherwise and even those epidural births sounded horrifying at the time. That's a huge reason for this problem IMO - if an epidural birth is so horribly painful, how/why could anyone do it without one???


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I was watching a rerun of that sitcom "step by step" where she wanted to have a nonmedicated birth and her husband and the doc are all basically humoring her, knowing she cant do it. Then she tells the doc she wants to be present whenthe babys born and is told she'll be there, but why be in agony? Then she says she wants to do it naturally and is told it will be natural unless the baby comes out her nose. Then the doc tells her how safe it is for her and the baby and she says ok, then the husband is all relieved because now she'll act normal or whatever (of course, it shows her acting all crazy during each contraction and hurting or threatning her dh).


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## redsonya (Oct 8, 2004)

I think you're being over sensitive. You shouldn't be judgemental of women who choose pain meds (notice I used the word "choose--" pain meds should never be pushed or forced on a woman). I also doubt those stupid ads (and I've seen that awful bank commercial) will make any woman think she has to have an epidural.

What bothers me most about that ad is that the couple looks very financially comfortable, I'll eat my hat if that imaginary couple didn't have health insurance. It's a stupid premise.


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

i don't really think it is over sensative..although i fully see your point.. i can honour a woman's choice and still be upset at the normalization of epidurals..advertizing generally irks me.... in a nation where medical interventions are way higher than recomended, I htink over simplifying something does make it harder for women to make an informed choice...i have no real issue with women choosing an epi for her birth, but I do like to think she is on neautral ground going in to make a choice, and she knows about the risks..


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## Kavita (Dec 7, 2004)

I disagree, redsonya--I don't think the OP is being overly sensitive.

The issue is not judging individual women making individual choices. It's the culture's portrayal of birth and birthing women.

When is the last time you have seen unmedicated labor portrayed in the mainstream media and popular culture (and by that I mean movies, television, advertisements) as spiritual or sexual? When is the last time you have seen a woman calmly handling her contractions, breathing slowly, looking deep into the eyes of her partner or midwife or friend?

The only time birth is portrayed without medication, it's either 1) a huge emergency/crisis filled with blood and pain and danger (think ER) or, 2) a comedic situation (like a previous poster described--think almost any sitcom.) "Lamaze breathing" and hugely bulged out eyes with lots of hee-hee-whoo-whoo followed by screaming/moaning when the contractions get stronger and hurting the husband and lots of nasty remarks to the husband for getting her into this situation in between contractions, or whenever she can catch a breath. Meanwhile the DH is either being totally freaked out and inept, or making cracks about her with the hospital staff, or being "Mr. Supportive/Involved" which basically looks like him being a football coach.

There is actually a very funny commercial that sort of plays with this genre--there is a closeup of the faces of the husband and wife--she's red faced, sweating, grunting, and breathing hard, and he's yelling at her, "Push, Push!" and she's looking at him with an irritated expression, and then the camera backs up and you see that she is leaning with her back against their car, he is facing the car, and they are trying to push it up a hill because the car is dead because they failed to get the right whatever-is-being-advertised. (I don't remember what the ad is for.)

A advertisement or a sitcom isn't going to convince or force a woman to get an epidural. But the fact is that epidurals have become so routine and common as to be thought of as just an unquestioned part and parcel of the experience of birth for many people, and this is being both reflected and reinforced by the media portrayals of epidurals in birth. This is the same way that until the 70's, labor/birth in popular culture was represented by the woman being in the hospital (unseen of course) and the man in the waiting room along with all the other husbands, pacing nervously/smoking/trying to read a newspaper/pestering the nurse for any news, and then a nurse coming out and saying, "Mr. Jones? It's a girl! Your wife is doing fine." And all the other guys in the room congratulating him and him being all happy and passing out cigars. (Think "I Love Lucy" when Little Ricky came on the scene!)

Isn't popular culture fun?!


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I wouldn't worry about it.

To be honest I had natural child birth the first time around and my big head boy broke my tailbone - it was a long painful recovery and I had alot of post birth anxiety/depression/fear based on my terrible experience.

I was extremely afraid to have a second baby (five years later, it still hurts too much to ride a bike or do a number of yoga positions) and truthfully I wouldn't have had a second baby if an epidural wasn't available.

I wouldn't waste too much energy getting upset over something that other people might decide is right for them - make your own choices and let others make their own.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:

What bothers me most about that ad is that the couple looks very financially comfortable, I'll eat my hat if that imaginary couple didn't have health insurance. It's a stupid premise.
We are financially comfortable and have health insurance. My insurance doesn't cover anything about pregnancy or birth so I would totally be worried about the cost of things if I were at the hospital.

Back to the OP, go ahead and feel that way. I get way annoyed about things like that too. I probably don't need to be but it is annoying. I wish more women (and men) recognized the absurdity of the culture surrounding birthing in this country. How can stuff like that not be annoying. It is sad but true. Most girls I know have decided on their epidural about the same time they got their positive HPT. It is such the norm. I guess who can blame them, by the time you get to the hospital it is pretty stressful most being told to stay in bed on their back and half those women being augmented by pitocin, heck I'd want an epidural too.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

I see the present medicalization of childbirth and the rise in epidural PARTLY driven by insurance companies.

To pay malpractice these days, and your staff, and have your bucks too at the end, providers must deliver MORE women in the same amount of time they used to, They would not get a wink of sleep if everyone or almost everyone was not induced and managed and sectioned.

Birth , left to it's own devices takes time. Time that docs and labor wards often don't have. And nowdays, women as well are making the same decisions.

As a HCP, I don't like administering routine elective epidurals to my labor patients, I do not like seeing the laboring moms blood pressure bottoming out, and watching the babes go downhill until mom is going down the ramp to the OR. Happens everyday THEY ARE RELATED. It sucks. Not to mention the non-routine risks of epidural anesthesia.

Too bad innocent women and sweet little babes are the ones who pay the ultimate price for the business. Always at the bottom in this culture.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

redsonya said:


> I think you're being over sensitive. You shouldn't be judgemental of women who choose pain meds (notice I used the word "choose--" pain meds should never be pushed or forced on a woman).
> QUOTE]
> 
> I believe that there are many women who have never explored their birth options. They don't know about the benefits of movement in labor, water to ease pain, support from doulas . . . They are not equipped to make an educated choice, so they choose what their OB's and nurses present as the only option - an epidural.
> ...


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

ebethmom said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *redsonya*
> ...


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html...sin=B00078MLWK

I will never shop Target again and plan on writing the company about this immediately.
I will also send this out to every Mama I know.
How completely apalling that they would consider this is the norm for birth?
What a way to set up a first time mama, too!
This type of #### I refuse to tolerate.
Thanks for posting the info OP.
Any btw- its not your preggy hormones riding you- its your good common natural sense.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yamilee21*
How many women have even made decisions about their labour and delivery in the first trimester?!

Unfortunately, a LOT of women have decided long before even getting pregnant that they will have an epidural. They have been socialized to believe that pain is always a negative, unnecessary experience, that pain during birth is some sort of ancient torture that modern women should not have to feel, that natural birth is 'hippy" and "hippy" is something to be mocked, and that a birth loaded with interventions is normal and desirable.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentfulady*

Birth , left to it's own devices takes time. Time that docs and labor wards often don't have. And nowdays, women as well are making the same decisions.
.









I thought that Epidurals actually slowed down the whole process. Anyone has any info on this??

I agree with the fact that many women (most of the women I know actually) feel that giving birth in the 21st century should not hurt at all and opt for epidurals - or worse, a c-section - already when they find out they're pregant.
They think I am a freak for not wanting an epidural. (BTW - I did have an epidural the 3rd time I gave birth - long story - and will NEVER have one again!! )


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Providers for a variety of reasons;
1) to squeeze in more deliveries
2) to get it over with and go home..........sleep
3) The "time clock" of "safe " delivery.
4) They need the bed.

hurry labor along by Pitocin induction, usually necessitating epidural.

epidurals without artificial stimulation often can slow labor


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

epidurals slow labor therefore displaying a "Failure to progress" situation, hence more c-sections. Birth at "gunpoint" moreover "needlepoint"


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The epidural is so accepted now that some people don't even consider it a drug. I've asked a few pregnant women IRL if they are planning to have drugs for the birth and they say, "No, just the epidural."


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

ebethmom said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *redsonya*
> ...


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

The OP asked if there was someone she could write to. I would suggest the following:
a) if YOU are a writer, write this up and submit it to publications like MOTHERING, Midwifery Today, etc.
b) send a letter to the Coalition for Improving Maternity Services ( CIMS) at www.motherfriendly.org
c) circulate the annoyances so that we all get miffed at Target and such ( the grassroots effect, I am all for it...just check my post history!)








d) collaborate with someone who is a writer to get the words out there ( hint hint I am published and freelance....wanna collaborate??? PM me!







)


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

I just went and reviewed the target shirt







There are no reviews yet so lets show them what we think!


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## Momma2LiamandTara (Nov 26, 2003)

I posted my review they say it takes 5 days to post and it will post if it meet their content..so who knows.


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Ive posted a link in the Activism forum and a review on the site. Plus sent it to everyone I know, some of which are real big activists.


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

I posted a review too - somehow I doubt they'll display all these activism related reviews though.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I don't think epidurals should be banned, but do I think they should not be the norm? Absolutely!
But, not everyone is up to natural childbirth for various reasons, I would never take away their right to pain meds.

I too get sick though when asking a pregnant woman (friend) "You taking a birth class?" Response: "Nope, I'm getting an epidural"


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural? Since many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts, so it's hard to accept "too much pain" as a reason.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I am guessing that most of epidurals are requested because of fear or are accepted if you're bullied into getting one.

If you're in a hospital and is going through horrible pain, it is hard to say no to the nurses pushing an epidural on you if you don't have a doula







It happened to me last time.

And they also went on to tell me that because I was being induced, the labor was going to be way worse than the first two I had without meds, so I just accepted the offer
















NEVER AGAIN!! The side effects of the Epi FOR ME where not worthy it... Luckily my baby did not have any problems that we know of


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural? Since many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts, so it's hard to accept "too much pain" as a reason.


Again, I'm going to have to disagree here. There were many women who posted here about the differences in labor between different women. That there are women who experience relatively painless labors, some who have more difficult labors, and others who describe labor as "being drawn and quartered." I have not had this last type of experience, but who I am I to judge another woman for being in "too much pain?" I mean, really, if someone tells me that it hurt too much, I'm totally willing to accept that as an answer. Or "I was afraid." "I was too tired." etc. I will never know what her birth experience was like.

I can understand saying that epidurals are becoming too common, that people are not adequately informed of the risks, that the medical community pushes epidurals on women for numerous reasons. But I dislike reading things like this thread that assumes that women who opt for epidurals are all misinformed or uninformed of the risks, or that they are weak for not being able to handle the pain or fear of their labor. That "we did it naturally so why can't you" attitude can be very patronizing, imo and can really turn people off to listening to what you have to say about birth.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans*
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html...sin=B00078MLWK

I will never shop Target again and plan on writing the company about this immediately.
I will also send this out to every Mama I know.
How completely apalling that they would consider this is the norm for birth?
What a way to set up a first time mama, too!
This type of #### I refuse to tolerate.
Thanks for posting the info OP.
Any btw- its not your preggy hormones riding you- its your good common natural sense.

Certainly you need to make the decision that's best for your family, but to boycott an organization because they sell one item you disagree with? That doesn't really make sense to me. I agree with your sentiment about epidurals. I just don't think boycotting Target is the way to change the culture of birth in our country. I *STRONGLY* disagree with cigarettes. I think they should be illegal. And yet, I am forced to shop at places that sell them. (Gas stations, grocery stores.) The best way to stop people from smoking is not to boycott the grocery store. The same principal applies here.

Back to the regularly scheduled discussion!


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## salado (Jan 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys*
I wouldn't worry about it.

To be honest I had natural child birth the first time around and my big head boy broke my tailbone - it was a long painful recovery and I had alot of post birth anxiety/depression/fear based on my terrible experience.

I was extremely afraid to have a second baby (five years later, it still hurts too much to ride a bike or do a number of yoga positions) and truthfully I wouldn't have had a second baby if an epidural wasn't available.

I wouldn't waste too much energy getting upset over something that other people might decide is right for them - make your own choices and let others make their own.

BJ
Barney & Ben

Amen!! I had an epidual with my deliveries and yet I wouldn't go round telling others who did not that they were (fill in the blank) for doing so. Live and let live....


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I just reviewed the shirt at Target.com.

What bothers me the most about these shirts is that there IS one about epidurals but not one single tee having anything to do with natural birth. I mean I know it wouldn't be a big seller since the vast majority of women go the drug route but it just doesn't seem right for the tees to only be about "sleepless nights" and epidurals. This to me is the major problem- we are all just assumed to be getting epidurals.

Everyone has a right to an epidural- but it's hard for those of us who do not want one to deal with all the pressure from our dr.s, society, friends, etc to have one. I was reading an article in "Fit Pregnancy" and one of the women they interview said "I'm not going to try and be a hero- if I need the epi I'll take it!" and this is so demeaning to those of us who believe in natural birth- not because we want to be "heros" but because we believe the risks of drugs and interventions outweight the benefits and are willing to handle the pain.

I don't look down on women who have had epis, etc. I just don't want to be mocked and looked down on myself for wanting to give birth naturally- and I think we can all agree that in real life there are a lot more people who are going to mock plans for NCB than plans for epidurals.

I don't think I will boycott Target but I am very disappointed in them for catering to this societal obsession with epidurals and medicalized childbirth as of there is "no other way to do it"


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I have no problem with a mother choosing the epi route. I have a problem with a mother being uninformed of the risks and other options. I have a problem with a mother being pushed in one direction or another by biased views of her caregiver. I have a problem with a caregiver that doesn't give the best care and the mother ends up being unhealthy as a result and thus having a more painful birth because of it. And because of that choosing the epi when it didn't have to be that way.

I get upset about those things. I think there is a lot of incorrect information being fed to expectant mothers causing some of them to make choices they may not make if they knew the whole story. I've had alot of incorrect info fed to me and I am sure glad I found out all the facts now before I go into labor!

I have talked to women who have had more than one child and basicly didn't have a clue about anything that went on with their labor and delivery. They were just there being delivered and ended up feeling like they didn't have a choice in anything. They told me some of the things the doctors told them and some of it was very bias toward one thing or another. They basicly didn't get all the info offered to them and that isn't right.

There are also some women who don't want to know details, that just want to be taken care of and delivered as the doctors see fit. While I don't understand them not wanting to be informed I respect their decisions. The decisions ae theirs alone to make.


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2004)

This isn't about condemning any individual's right to choose an epidural, and I think there is a distinction between questioning the intentions of two influential corporations and making judgments about real women's birth choices. There is nothing wrong with someone choosing an epidural, especially if she is informed of both the pros and cons. Nonetheless, an epidural is a relatively serious medical intervention, and it isn't a routine part of most births throughout the world. It seems strange to me that these two large corporations would nonchalantly "promote" epidurals when there is so much more to pregnancy and childbirth.

I find the Target t-shirts particularly odd - there are only two, and the other says, "Sleepless nights are in my future." Although somewhat negative, it makes some sense as sleepless nights are common enough as parents and new babies adjust to each other. But why not a shirt saying, "Diaper changes are in my future" or "Tiny clothes..." or "A stroller/sling/car-seat..." or for that matter, "Lamaze/Bradley/Hypobirthing classes..." or any of the myriad of things related to pregnancy and childbirth instead? Why specifically epidurals (unless maybe some group of obstetric anesthesiologists has a deal with the company)? Among the recent first-time mothers I know, none of them were thinking about epidurals during the first trimester (the stage for which the Target t-shirts are being marketed); they were thinking about the adjustments they would need to make to their lives, childcare, financial issues, housing issues, careers. Those that had miscarried before were primarily concerned with whether their pregnancies would result in an actual birth. A few of them had never even heard of epidurals. (I do understand that some women make up their minds immediately, especially those who have already given birth; this just hasn't been the case for the first-time mothers I happen to know.)

The CitiBank commercial makes even less sense. Realistically, the proportion of people in the general population for whom epidurals are a concern is relatively small - if they had to have a medical setting in the commercial, why not something with a more universal recognition such as a routine physical or getting a cavity filled? Even if they used a hospital birth scene, it could involve the financially worried father wanting to take the wife and baby home right away instead paying for a night in the hospital. Again, why zero in on the epidural when there are other, more universal aspects to childbirth?

KeysMama, thanks for the suggestions.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yamilee21*
This isn't about condemning any individual's right to choose an epidural, and I think there is a distinction between questioning the intentions of two influential corporations and making judgments about real women's birth choices. ]\

Really? Because, to me, hearing what is and isn't an "acceptable reason" for having an epidural sounds pretty judgemental to me. Hearing that "too much pain" isn't an acceptable reason because "so many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts" sounds REALLY judgemental to me.


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## thyme (Jul 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
The epidural is so accepted now that some people don't even consider it a drug. I've asked a few pregnant women IRL if they are planning to have drugs for the birth and they say, "No, just the epidural."









I have heard this so many times too. I think some women think it's some sort of "nerve block" that doesn't have anything to do with serious drugs.

I also hear women use the term "natural childbirth" to mean vaginal delivery. Several women I know have spoken highly of their "natural childbirth" complete with stadol, epidural, episiotomy, etc.

I believe that 100% of my mainstream friends have had or plan to have an epidural. It simply is unthinkable for them not to. I truly think they see it as a *risk-free way* to reduce pain in labor. "I'm not into pain" is the reason they give. (As if therefore, someone who goes drug free *is* "into pain" when of course that is not at all the reason behind it.)


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli*
Really? Because, to me, hearing what is and isn't an "acceptable reason" for having an epidural sounds pretty judgemental to me. Hearing that "too much pain" isn't an acceptable reason because "so many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts" sounds REALLY judgemental to me.

Lousli, I can't prevent other posters from making comments that you consider judgmental. My intention in starting this thread, which I attempted to clarify in my second post, was to discuss the two corporations' use of the epidural in marketing, and how this relates to perception of the epidural in the general public. By qoting me and then using unattributed "quotes" from other posters, your post makes it appear that I am the one making the "judgmental" comments.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yamilee21*
Lousli, I can't prevent other posters from making comments that you consider judgmental. My intention in starting this thread, which I attempted to clarify in my second post, was to discuss the two corporations' use of the epidural in marketing, and how this relates to perception of the epidural in the general public. By qoting me and then using unattributed "quotes" from other posters, your post makes it appear that I am the one making the "judgmental" comments.

I'm sorry, that is not at all my intention. It was just that you wrote, "This isn't about condemning any individual's right to have an epidural" and while you may certainly feel that way, there are many others ont his thread who clearly do not. I did not mean to attribute those quotes to you, I was just pointing out that people on this thread are getting judgemental about an individual's right to have an epidural, or more precisely, what they consider acceptable reasons for having/not having epidurals.

I understand why you started this thread, and I don't expect you to be able to monitor the content of other posters. In fact, I have to say that despite having had epidurals with both of my births, I agree with you that it is not okay normalize epidurals and make it seem that it isn't any big deal or is somehow risk-free. I'm sorry if my post came across that I was trying to lay the blame on you for those comments. They really irked me though, so I was pointing them out.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural?
I had a 26 hour labor (read, started with water breaking spontaneously and immediately moved into hard, regular contrax.) I had cervical issues that hampered dialation and I got an epidural after about 18 hours of intense labor. Was there a medical reason? Nope, just my own inadequacies, I guess....

I didn't find the OP to be judgmental at all, I too find the tee shirt offensive, and I think that some interesting, thought-provoking and important ideas were raised but I think many of the subsequent posts are pretty condemning. Not everyone has the ideal unmedicated, homebirth...but I don't think we have to invalidate births that don't fit the bill.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans*
epidurals slow labor therefore displaying a "Failure to progress" situation, hence more c-sections. Birth at "gunpoint" moreover "needlepoint"

I am reading this and there are some myths here about epidurals. If given too early, yes epidurals, can slow labor, that is why *most* child birth educators recommend waiting until you have reached the 5-6cm mark to get one. Epidurals can actually help speed up labor, especially with an exhausted, tuckered out mom. Most the folks I know who have had epidurals get them at this point in labor, on recommendation from their doctors, and have never stalled out. My BF got one at 3cm and she did have failure to progress, had AROM, etc and then ended up with a csection, she knew the risks when she asked for the epidural, she also takes responsibility for ending up in the OR since she allowed them to augment her labor because she was "tired" and "ready to get it over with" after being pregnant for nearly 43 weeks.

Actually I would love to have one of thos T-shirts from Target. I am always looking for a conversation peice and since I am having a repeat csection with an epidural, it will be true.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:

Really? Because, to me, hearing what is and isn't an "acceptable reason" for having an epidural sounds pretty judgemental to me.
I know for me that I have my own persoanal "acceptable" situations where I would accept an epidural. I think everyone has their own acceptable situation where they would have one and that is okay.

I think it can come off as judgmental when a person sees only one way as being the best but doesn't necessarily mean that person is being judgemental. There are times that happens. Shoot it has happened to me, people think I am being selfish and endangering my baby by birthing at home. They don't simply say they think hospital is best and that is what they prefer but take it much farther than that. (sadly before knowing anything of homebirth at all)

Anyway, just sharing my thoughts here. My thoughts get all jumbled and emotional on these topics because I know woman who had epi's pushed on them without knowing the risks. I think everyone has the right to an informed decision.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Everyone feels pain differently, in my case, I have had cavities filled with no novocaine due to fear of the needle but I know that I myself never would have made it through labor without my epidural.
Epidural or no epidural is an extremely personal choice. While I see those who birth without pain meds as amaxzingly strong, brave women, I would hope you would see my choice the same way, I labored as long as humanly possible without any pain relief until my extreme fear of needles was greatly outweighed my need for relief.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I chose my epidural both times b/c of emotional and abuse feelings from my past. I know myself well enough to know that I would do better with an epidural. I have no regrets at all. However I do feel that a natural birth is best for most women. I'm just glad I had a choice personally.

That being said, I often feel the need to justify my epidural because most of the women I hang out are homebirthers.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I also hate the total normalization of epidurals. The stats at some hospitals are staggering. And so many ppl think a woman is nuts if she want to go unmedicated. They get a smug look on their faces and say stuff like, "You'll see." PUHLEASE!

I fully repsect that epidurals can be very useful in certain situations. For a woman who is tired and stuck, and epidural can prevent a c/s. For a woman given pitocin, an epidural may be the only way to handle the artificially painful contx. And other reasons. I can't judge individual women and their choices. I do, however, believe that epidurals should NOT be routine. The risks should be FULLY explained to the mother and epidural should never be pushed on a birthing woman. Dr's should be educated in natural, physiologic birth prior to learning about medicalized birth. They should have to do rotations of hb or women-centered birth centers. They should have to shadow mw's and learn things like the Gaskin manuever, etc. And they should have to take a whole class on Birth as an American Right of Passage. LOL.

Seriously, though. The women I know who unquestioningly choose and epi is scary. I've heard more than one woman complain that her labor went too fast for an epi. I was left scratching my head. Wouldn't a fast labor be a blessing (unless is was extreamely hard, which in these cases it wasn't)? One woman even said she wanted to go to the hospital right away next time so she could have an epidural right away.

For me personally, I am not likely to choose an epi. I might if I become too exhausted and stuck in labor, but I'll try as many relaxing techniques and natural birth stimulation as possible. An epidural would be an absolute last resort for me b/c of all the risks (including be forced to stay in bed w/ continuous monitoring and having to give birth in the lithotomy or semireclining position). To me, it seems like a dangerous step on the road to another c/s and I don't want that.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural? Since many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts, so it's hard to accept "too much pain" as a reason.
Trying to remember...

I think one of the common effects of an epidural is a drop in blood pressure (why some people get dizzy & need to lie flat). SO, I *think* (I haven't done any research on birth drugs for around 4+ years) that for mothers who have high blood pressure that needs brought down a bit it can be one way to deal with it.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I've never experienced pitocin, but I've heard that almost no one can do that without an epidural. (Have met a few on this board who have, though.) Birth was definitely the most painful thing I have ever experienced; it's hard to imagine something that could make it hurt WORSE!


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## redsonya (Oct 8, 2004)

I just don't buy the "some women have a higher threshold for pain than others." This doesn't explain why the same woman will have multiple births, get through some of them no problem, and then is hit with one where she is begging/ wishing for an epidural. I have a friend who went through SEVEN homebirths and on the 8th she transferred (her choice) due to the severity of the pain, and yes, begged for an epidural. Did her tolerance for pain shift so dramatically between birth 7 and birth 8? No-- the lesson this taught me is that some briths are more painful than others, plain and simple. So if you were able to get through your birth okay, don't assume that birth was as painful as they come, because chances are it wasn'tl. I think we can be satisfied that MDCers have done their homework, and it's shocking for me to see the assumption that "most" women who choose an epidural are just ignorant or haven't bothered to do much research. I used to be totally judgemental toward women who had an epidural. I had all kinds of ideas in my mind about how awful and selfish and ignorant it was to get an epidural. I am totally ashamed to have had these thoughts, now, and I wish other people wouldn't have them either. I just don't get the judgemental attitude. If epidurals were causing heaps of dead babies, then yes, I'd understand the fuss, but that isn't the case by a loooooong shot. There are lots of things to complain about concerning medicalized birth other than pain relief, which a laboring woman should have every right to *if she wants it.*


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

This doesn't explain why the same woman will have multiple births, get through some of them no problem, and then is hit with one where she is begging/ wishing for an epidural.
Some women feel that after a certain number of drug-free births, it "doesn't matter" if subsequent ones aren't drug-free. They feel they have nothing to "prove" anymore. (This is what some women have told me, after having drug-free births and then using drugs for the last one.)

I had this thought at my homebirth; "My first baby was drug-free; no one will hold it against me if I transfer and get an epi now." My thought was that I and everyone else already knew I could manage without drugs, so what did it matter if I got them now?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I am reading this and there are some myths here about epidurals. If given too early, yes epidurals, can slow labor, that is why *most* child birth educators recommend waiting until you have reached the 5-6cm mark to get one. Epidurals can actually help speed up labor, especially with an exhausted, tuckered out mom. Most the folks I know who have had epidurals get them at this point in labor, on recommendation from their doctors, and have never stalled out.

My water broke 40 hours before I agreed to have pitocin. then I tried to get labor going with the pitocin for 24 hours before my midwives offered me the epidural. I took it, even though i didn't want it, even though the whole reason I was with the midwifery practice was to avoid it. Being able to sleep for three hours while the pitocin dilated my cervix for me was really nice, but then I was in the pushing stage for 8 hours because it was so hard to push when I couldn't feel anything.

So I've asked people here to help me evaluate this experience. One thing I noticed was that the hospital didn't allow me to eat for those 24 hours that I was on pitocin. I didn't feel hungry, but I did get really exhausted. It wasn't just that I wasn't sleeping. The second thing was that the atmosphere at the hospital was really stressful. People were annoyed with me for crying out when I had contractions (especially since the contractions were not effective in dilating me, so obviously they didn't hurt.







) My midwife did a great job of coming up with positions to help me labor more efficiently and less painfully, but I did feel time pressure because I was worried that my baby could be harmed (I mean since my waters had broken so long before.)

In theory, the healthcare practitioners supported my not using an epidural and not having an episotomy and not having the baby weighed before he latched on after birth. In practice, I had an epidural, an episotomy, and the neonatal nurse weighing my son before he had latched on. In practice, it was normal to pull the epidural out of the bag of tricks. We couldn't pull a friggin' peanut butter sandwich out of the bag of tricks, but we could use an epidural. Not that I wasn't grateful for the rest, I just think this was a silly tradeoff.

there is no evidence that not eating is beneficial to moms who have to have general anaesthesia in an emergency c/s, AND, they don't usually USE general! They would have used the epidural for the c/s! In fact that was one of the reasons they used to persuade me to concede to it!

I'd like to see a Target fortune-teller pregnancy t-shirt that says, "I see a foot massage in my near future" instead.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I had a 47.5 hour labour, hospital transfer due to stalled dilation. When I got to the hospital I started begging for the epi. It took over an hour to arrive and by that time I was 9 cm... yay! So decided to go without.

For me there were lots of factors in being able to do without, including (first and foremost) the length of time it took the epi to arrive. If it had shown up when I requested it I would have taken it for sure. Also lots of emotional support, SERIOUS!!! counterpressure (3 people pushing on my hips with all their might), knowing that I had progressed.

Transfer to hospital really is what made me want one badly. Earlier in labour I almost decided to get one, then got into the rhythm/trance of labour. I got pulled out of that when I got moved from home, and labelled as having "stalled."

I think it is absolutely up to a woman whether she has an epi, but epis shouldn't be used by hospitals as an excuse to not create supportive environments for labouring women.

And I agree with Greaseball in that I can't imagine anything more painful than just plain ole regular labour, never mind pitocin.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

well I dropped Target a review and a note, and then spread the info to a doula egroup. I am sure many from that group (1800 doulas) wrote to Target, some even work at Target part time. That spread to other groups , and they told 2 friends and they told 2 friends and so on and so on....









anyway, they are no longer available . I would like to think that consumers complaining of tacky merchandise that was demeaning to women got it pulled, but who knows, maybe they sold out like hot cakes.







:


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Trying to remember...

I think one of the common effects of an epidural is a drop in blood pressure (why some people get dizzy & need to lie flat). SO, I *think* (I haven't done any research on birth drugs for around 4+ years) that for mothers who have high blood pressure that needs brought down a bit it can be one way to deal with it.

actually mag sulfate is what is protocol and recommended to control BP during labor. Anesthesia is not any protocol for controlling a medical issue, although some women do get that line along with many other lines to help them deal with their choices.


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*
well I dropped Target a review and a note, and then spread the info to a doula egroup. I am sure many from that group (1800 doulas) wrote to Target, some even work at Target part time. That spread to other groups , and they told 2 friends and they told 2 friends and so on and so on....









anyway, they are no longer available . I would like to think that consumers complaining of tacky merchandise that was demeaning to women got it pulled, but who knows, maybe they sold out like hot cakes.







:

Target did in fact pull that shirt. I'm in a birth organization that contacted just about every birth related organization about it. I know for sure that Lamaze Intl. said they'd contact Target at the national level & Mothering is issuing something in their newsletter this coming monday about it. Then a couple people I know of who wrote Target personally got emails back which said:

Quote:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings about the t-shirt sold on
www.target.com.

This shirt is no longer available on our Web site. We apologize for any
offense or disappointment this item may have caused and will make your
comments available to our Web site buyers and executives.

Thanks for shopping with us. I hope you'll visit us again soon at Target.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Ladies, I feel that all who wrote/complained/spread the word we now need to demonstrate our graciousness and need to THANK TARGET in the same enthusiastic manner.
This is a small little victory and if we want to keep the allies we make, we thank
them!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Anesthesia is not any protocol for controlling a medical issue, although some women do get that line along with many other lines to help them deal with their choices.
A friend of mine was told that, due to heart arrythmia, she would have to have an epidural if she wanted a vaginal birth. They were trying to talk her into a c/s instead, but then a cardiologist suggested the vag birth with epi.

Who knows...


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

Yay on Target pulling the shirt!


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
A friend of mine was told that, due to heart arrythmia, she would have to have an epidural if she wanted a vaginal birth. They were trying to talk her into a c/s instead, but then a cardiologist suggested the vag birth with epi.

Who knows...

yeah you're right...they also use ulcer meds for labor induction







so I guess it depends on the doc not the protocol


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Where I come from it would seem most people think that homebirth is wierd and unsafe and an epi or c-sec is sooo much safer. I have gotten told that alot. People say I am nuts, it is so risky without the hospital and without drugs, I'll be lucky if we make it; stuff like that. Seems it is pretty safe to say they haven't read up on the risks of drugs compared to all natural and their decisions were made in a state of ignorance on the subject.

On either side of the spectrum I hate it when people act like they know it all when they really don't have clue and then to look down upon you for your decision before even knowing why you made it. Whether it is an epi you desire or a homebirth some people can be so mean about it.

I have met one person who has been lovely about the whole thing. She had c-secs and such but doesn't know anything of homebirth and instead of bashing me or making me feel like I have to defend what I am doing as being best for me and my baby she simply asks questions. Shows some interest in understanding why we are doing things this way. That is a breath of fresh air!


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## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

I totally agree with the OP - it is not about individual choices but the climate in which they are made in. Birth is overwhelmingly portrayed as horrific and those who want to do it unmedicated as crazy, and epidurals are a godsend. This is a disservice to women - because it isn't always like that and the risks of epidural are not even downplayed, they are absent. It saddens me that this amazing thing women do is just boiled down to this one caricature. It robs us of our real voice.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redsonya*
I think you're being over sensitive. You shouldn't be judgemental of women who choose pain meds (notice I used the word "choose--" pain meds should never be pushed or forced on a woman). I also doubt those stupid ads (and I've seen that awful bank commercial) will make any woman think she has to have an epidural.

What bothers me most about that ad is that the couple looks very financially comfortable, I'll eat my hat if that imaginary couple didn't have health insurance. It's a stupid premise.

I agree


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural? Since many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts, so it's hard to accept "too much pain" as a reason.

people experience pain differently so this is hardly an argument.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I was just discussing epidurals with my midwife this evening. Or rather, they came up when we were talking about the transformative nature of birth.

Laboring and giving birth was for me a life-changing event. No, I didn't have a pain-free childbirth. No, I didn't have a trauma-free childbirth. Yes, it was the most painful thing I've ever done (possibly close to being drawn and quartered, though I'm not certain as I've never been drawn and quartered). No, I didn't feel fabulous and empowered afterwards. I didn't think it was fun. I didn't feel like I could climb Everest or like I had climbed Everest. I felt like I survived childbirth, and that I'd barely survived it at that.

However, given a little time I began to realize what I had done during my labor. For the first time in my life I was totally in my body. For the first time ever, I was completely, irrevocably in the moment. I gave myself over to the force of my body and my body worked just as it was supposed to. Given time, I came to realize just how amazing I am for having done it. Given time, I came to use birth as the metaphor that informs how I live my life. I gave in to the nature of what I needed and what my body needed. I healed past sexual traumas by owning my body for the first time. I birthed myself as a mother and was made a confident mother for it. I believed in the knowledge of my body and my baby and that gave us the confidence we needed to become a couple and to face our first, quite difficult year together.

Because of birth, I now know how to take what is given to me and deal with it however I can. Because of giving birth, I trust my instinct in a way I didn't before. Because of giving birth, I want to do it again. Even though I know it sucks. It is the ultimate metaphor for everything. It is the rite of passage written again and again into every religion. It is the beginning of life.

What happens when we anesthetize ourselves to that? What happens to the process when we cannot feel it? Birth is a deeply psychic, emotional journey - I just can't understand wanting to not be present for it, wanting to avoid the experience.

Note that I am not saying that all epidurals are bad. I am questioning the psychological side effects that may result from the choice for the sake of the choice. I do believe in the compassionate use of drugs in childbirth. I also believe, however, that home is the best place to birth and that hospitals make birth an unnatural experience in the first place, though I also understand that individuals make these choices for deeply personal and very different reasons.


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## CalgonMoment (Dec 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Other than for a c-section, is there any medical reason why someone needs an epidural? Since many of us have given birth without one, we all know that it hurts, so it's hard to accept "too much pain" as a reason.

I'll give you one that I think is appropriate. My best friend was full term and stopped feeling movement. US found no heartbeat. Labor was induced. She wanted an epidural, I don't blame her. Unfortunately, and for reasons never explained, the anesthiesiologist did not give her complete relief so she still had to deal with some of the pain of birth, while also dealing with her own pain of accepting the stillbirth.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalgonMoment*
I'll give you one that I think is appropriate. My best friend was full term and stopped feeling movement. US found no heartbeat. Labor was induced. She wanted an epidural, I don't blame her. Unfortunately, and for reasons never explained, the anesthiesiologist did not give her complete relief so she still had to deal with some of the pain of birth, while also dealing with her own pain of accepting the stillbirth.

Good point - I can't believe I forgot that one. I would most definitely have an epidural if I knew I were having a stillbirth.







I'd probably take every drug I could possibly get.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
However, given a little time I began to realize what I had done during my labor. For the first time in my life I was totally in my body. For the first time ever, I was completely, irrevocably in the moment. I gave myself over to the force of my body and my body worked just as it was supposed to. Given time, I came to realize just how amazing I am for having done it.

well, great for you but it's not true for far too many women.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Anna, I just wanted to say thanks for a beautiful post! You've made me even more excited about my planned homebirth after having had a standard, epidural, etc, hospital birth with my son.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

As with so many other topics lately, it seems that so many people are hung up on 'who is judging whom' that the point brought up was the fact that epidurals have become 'the norm' to the point that it has become a basic assumption. Giving birth without an epidural has become almost 'demonized' in many places (I work in one!), seen as something that only a masochist would want and not a realistic goal for almost all. Furthermore, natural childbirth is devalued as being *meaningless* and *pointless*. Can we work from those ideas as a starting point?


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

"As with so many other topics lately, it seems that so many people are hung up on 'who is judging whom' "

I agree - and I think the reply to annakiss saying "well, great for you but" was pretty devaluing of her input and experience. Nobody here seems to be saying "no one should have an epidural," but simply musing over whether giving birth unmedicated has any merits and wondering how having complete pain relief seems to have entered the mainstream as the norm.

Giving birth to 4 children unmedicated has been the most transforming experiences of my life. My first birth changed forever how I view my body - as I previously had pretty poor self-image. But growing my amazing son in my body, and laboring and pushing him into the world without medications or other assistance proved to me that my body was amazing and wonderful.

I recognize that this is not everyone's experience of childbirth. I wouldn't dream of insisting everyone needs to do it as I did. Hopefully, though, those who had different experiences can understand that there was value in what I did and what I gained from the experience.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
well, great for you but it's not true for far too many women.

Granted, but _why_ is that? Birth is one of the greatest metaphors in storytelling the world over. The birth of the world, the birth of Adam, of Eve, of the universe out Visnu's navel... It is the beginning of everything, of existence... I would venture to say that most women are transformed by it in some way or another. The days of the births of our children are some of the most important days of our lives, and not just for us AP/NFL mamas dedicated to natural living. To not fully experience that is, imo, to miss out on a part of what we cherish, part of what we celebrate.

Does perhaps anesthetisizing oneself to the act hinder or spoil the transformation? If left to follow our instincts in natural childbirth without the interruption of a drive across town or bright lights or cold hands or laying on our backs half paralyzed, would we perhaps be more in touch with ourselves as the birthers of our species, as the bringers of life, the gateway for existence? Would we be more inclined to see and appreciate ourselves as such? Is it really just luck that my experience transformed me? Is there really no point to the natural childbirth movement at all then?


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

Good point - I can't believe I forgot that one. I would most definitely have an epidural if I knew I were having a stillbirth. I'd probably take every drug I could possibly get.
You might not. I gave birth to my son after being induced with pitocin without an epidural and I THANK G-D that I was able to give birth naturally. As painful as it was to know that I was giving birth to a dead child, I am so thankful that I got to experience the transformative, healing power of childbirth. He moved through my body without me even doing anything and it was the most amazing thing I've ever felt in my life. Because of that, I have been able to have beauty as a part of my birth experience with him and I look forward to doing it again in the future. I was already numb from grief and I'm so glad that I wasn't numb in my body. Interestingly, the m/w who was attending me ordered and epidural thinking she should try and "save me from the pain" and I had to work through my intense anger at her for almost taking away the experience I had been preparing for my entire pg.

When your child gets taken away from you by death, you place even more value on the little time you did share with them while they were inside your body and I am happy to say that I can relate to other moms who talk about the transformative nature of the experience of natural childbirth.
Thank goodness.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

ST







- you are one of the coolest mamas I "know"


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

can I just say that I never knew what banalization meant until I saw this thread!
What a cool word!
okay sorry about that interjection. Continue...


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## jillian07 (Feb 18, 2005)

This is my very first post here! Probably silly to start on page 4 of a thread, but...

I just wanted to add that I'm a teacher (high school English and creative writing) and my 14 year-old students asked the other day if I'm planning on an epidural. And when I said no, I got the same smug "just you wait" that I've gotten from just about every adult on the planet. Talk about banal.

On the other hand, maybe it gives me more confidence to ignore the adults--the kids are necessarily ignorant since none of them have done it yet.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:

simply musing over whether giving birth unmedicated has any merits and wondering how having complete pain relief seems to have entered the mainstream as the norm.
Yeah, I've seen some here say they don't want others to make them feel bad for having an epi. That is a bummer but sure doesn't happen where I come from. Where I come from you are nuts for NOT having one. Around here you are looked down upon for having a natural birth. Don't even mention homebirth! Shoot. They act like I am trying to harm my child or myself or something....treat it like I'm abusing myself. Sick and tired of that. Why not just go to the hospital so you can have drugs they say....you could die....Treat me like I am ignorant and selfish for going all natural and at home. Sigh, whatever.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctorjen*
"I agree - and I think the reply to annakiss saying "well, great for you but" was pretty devaluing of her input and experience.


Excuse me? I was pointing out that birth is NOT the magical-great moment for MOSt women.How is that devaluating HER experience? It just sounded that women "seldomly" felt the opposite of what she described.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
Excuse me? I was pointing out that birth is NOT the magical-great moment for MOSt women.How is that devaluating HER experience? It just sounded that women "seldomly" felt the opposite of what she described.

Every woman I know counts her birth among the most life-changing events in her life. In fact, I have gone on to expound upon this idea even with those who choose in-hospital births - most women (and no, I haven't done studies) count the days of the births of her children among the most important days in her life. It tends to be right up there with graduations and weddings and funerals. That seems pretty self-evident to me. Am I missing something?


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Granted, but _why_ is that? Birth is one of the greatest metaphors in storytelling the world over. The birth of the world, the birth of Adam, of Eve, of the universe out Visnu's navel...

Well,maybe it is a mixture of people being less spiritual than you and an unsupportive society.

Even here at MDC I feel like the focus is always on the baby.Let's be honest, as long as women have to hear "oh well, as long as the baby is ok" childbirth is not going to gain in meaning. I say there needs to be more focus on the mothers, they are not just a means to an end.


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