# Confronting Grandparent about Innappropriate Touching



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I don't have a lot of time to write, so I cant' explain the whole story now. I need some important advice about how to handle innappropriate touching from my boys paternal grandfather. We just got back to our house from a week long visit and I'm just sick that I didn't say something while we were there.

My husband's father, while playing and different random times, was grabbing my boys' bottoms (grabs with both hands and squeezes several times). He does this in a playful way, but I find it EXTREMELY inappropriate. I talked to my husband about this and he said it's harmless behavior and that his father did that to all the kids in their family growing up. He did say he would talk to him about it, though. He never did. Now, I'm home from the visit and just sick to my stomach thinking about it.

I'm wanting advice on how to go about confronting my husband's father about this. I feel like an email letter would be easiest for me, but how do I say it showing the importance of the issue without complete outrage?! I don't think my husband will address this in a way that will prevent it from ever happening again, so I feel I'm left to do it. I want to let grandpa know I think this is NOT ok to ever do again to my children. What do I say?







:


----------



## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

I'm sorry I don't have much advice to offer. I am coming here from new posts. My paternal grandfather would always "cop-a-feel" when he hugged me. It was so disgusting and confusing. When I told my dad about it, he just laughed.

I sure wish someone had made it stop.


----------



## fanniefarkle (Oct 20, 2005)

To me the issue is less about confronting your FIL and more about protecting your boys (i.e. they should never be in FIL's care alone). This may be overkill, but better safe than sorry.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I guess it depends on how much you're willing to rock the boat. I would start with never leaving him alone with them, obviously, but to address him directly I'd say something like...we're trying to teach them about appropriate touching and it's confusing sometimes it's ok and sometimes it's not. That way if it really is just a generational thing you're not calling him a perv.

I think older people don't "get" how careful younger people have to be with their kids and touching. I don't think there are any more sickos out there, but we know more about them and are more prepared to act proactivly. So what to gramps is just playing with the kids, kids are kids, and who on earth would ever think of kids like that!!! - to a modern parent is stepping over some lines.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess....I squeeze my kids' tushies all the time. It's loving and affectionate, not inappropriate. Rather than ream out their grandfather, why not have a discussion with them about their bodies and tell them ANY TIME they feel uncomfortable, no matter WHO it is, they say "STOP!" and tell you?


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I'd personally be thinking about cutting off contact. But, short of that, I'd say to grandpa "it is absolutely not acceptable for you to handle my kids in that way. It is never to happen ever again, period. This is not up for negotiation or debate."

IMHO your husband is the bigger problem, here. Does he understand why this upsets you?


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel* 
Rather than ream out their grandfather, why not have a discussion with them about their bodies and tell them ANY TIME they feel uncomfortable, no matter WHO it is, they say "STOP!" and tell you?

I think it's unfair to place that kind of responsibility on the kids. If mom is too scared to confront, how the heck can you expect this to be the kids' job?

I squeeze my kids' tushies (baby and toddler). But I don't think it would be appropriate for their grandparents to do so, especially in the manner you're describing. I would never leave my kids alone with anyone who touched innappropriately.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I've thought of every angle of this issue. I have told my children to yell "stop" or "don't touch me" if they don't want to be touched, BUT they still don't know how to do it in the moment (for example, when someone is tickling them). My children are not "touchy" children. They only prefer to be touched on their terms. That being said, Grandpa pays no mind to what they want in these regards. He tickles and WE have to tell him to stop. He doesn't seem to care if the child doesn't like it......it seems more for his enjoyment. So, the whole "grabbing bottoms" goes right along with his "playing". He does it when people are around, meaning he isn't interested in hiding this whatsoever. I'm sure he sees no problem with it, but my children do and so do I. My children clearly do not like it. My children have NEVER been left alone with him. I'm sure my husband would take offense if I told him I didn't feel comfortable because I fear my children's safety. We feel differently about this issue, but I still need to discuss this further with him.

I really need help with words to use addressing this. I want him to know I don't want him doing this to my children ever again. Period. I want to express the importance. My husband has told him the boys don't like to be "tickled" or "touched" and he doesn't listen. More extreme vocabulary needs to be used, but I don't know what. I don't want to accuse him of being perverted or anything, but I DO want to address the importance of this grabbing to NEVER happen again.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I agree with the previous poster that it's not going to work to have the kids say no. I'm a grown up and I have been struck speechless more than once when an authority figure in my life has done something inappropriate or that made me uncomfortable. Brazen feminist that I am, the words nonetheless stuck in my throat when my then-boss started making sexual comments and trying to grab me. It's hard to confront the person above you, especially when you're suddenly physically overpowered.

I wish I could help you think of the right words to use. I suspect that maybe I have a stricter policy about this kind of thing than what your husband would tolerate. If it were my FIL, I'd give him exactly one chance to listen to me and take it to heart. Having "no" respected is an absolute in my household. People who cannot respect "no" when it comes to physical boundaries do not have any place in our lives; I consider them potential if not actual dangers.

I think it would be ideal if your husband were the one talking to his father, but since that's clearly not going to happen, I'd say to FIL, "I need to talk to you about something important and I need you to hear me out. We've spoken before about how the kids do not enjoy being grabbed or tickled. I don't know if you have forgotten those conversations or if you are simply disregarding them but I am reminding you now. We do not tolerate unwanted touching in our family, no matter how well-intentioned it may be. It is simply not something we allow. I will not remind you of this again. If you forget again, I will need to keep the kids away from you until you are able to respect the word no."


----------



## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Man, that is a HARD one. I really respect that you're going to bat on this one - your boys are so blessed to have a strong, supportive mama! Have you thought about ways that you might be able to communicate to your DH your concerns without him coming away with the impression that ol' Grandad is some nasty perv (which is what I'm getting from you that he will think you're saying)? Could you possibly approach it with him that it's simply inappropriate because your boys don't like it, and then figure out how HE can best communicate that to Grandfather without any wiggle room? I know you have had discussions about it, I'm just wondering if there's any strong language you can use that will be effective in communicating the situation without DH getting offended, like, "When GD was tickling the boys and grabbing them to play, on their tummies, bottoms and feet (or wherever the contact occured), it was obvious that the boys were upset. What can we do to communicate to GD that our boys need to be respected and that he cannot play with them in that manner?" That way, it's less, "Holy crud, bottom-grabber!" and more, "General inappropriateness" IYKWIM.

Obviously, if DH isn't going to get on board, it's up to you, and that's disappointing, but again, kudos to you for standing up for your boys' safety. What if you gave GD a very specific idea about what's acceptable and what's not? Something like, "I know we've discussed this before, and there seem to still be some questions about how the boys are comfortable playing with other people. I've sat down with DH and the boys, and we're having this discussion with the people in their lives that they care most about, so they feel comfortable around them. As you know, the boys don't particularly care for rough play, or being tickled. During our family meeting, these are the guidelines we decided are appropriate for us, and we are sharing them with our close family so that we can all be together in comfort. First, the boys are not to be tickled at all in any manner. If you would like to connect with them, then you are welcome to give them a hug around their necks or backs. Second, the boys are not to be pushed or grabbed in any manner. If you would like to play with them, it is perfectly appropriate to <insert activity here, like playing ball or another non-contact game>, but again, the boys are not to be played with by wrestling, roughhousing or any other contact sport. We know that you love our family and that, just as much as we do, respect and honor each other, and this is how you can best do that."

I dunno, that's my best effort...I really do wish you much success in this and I know you won't back down until your boys are safe! Will you give us an update when you decide what to do?


----------



## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

it doesn't matter that some find that inappropriate and some don't. everyone is different and have different comfort levels. if YOU find something wrong or creepy about what fil is doing, than say something, mama.









i really think you need dh to back you up on this. i know you say he doesn't listen to dh alone, but if you both sat down and had a talk with fil i think he may realize that you're serious. i don't think there's any reason to use strong words or get mean with fil. just let him know that even though he may not mean it that way (after all, he does it right in front of you guys and it's not like you caught him in the act), you would prefer that he doesn't do that anymore. bottom line: those are YOUR kids and what you say goes. if he can't respect your wishes than he can take a hike. some people are just more touchy-feely than others, but if you're not cool with it, you gotta draw that line.


----------



## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

First, I should tell you that my words here are probably a bit biased, as an incest survivor (this hits even closer to home, because it was my grandfather who molested me).

I understand you not wanting to rock the boat, but I've got to tell you, once you say something, no matter how gentle it is, you need to be prepared for some sort of backlash. Chances are you're going to get one. However gently you phrase it (and I really like a pp's suggestion of explaining that it's confusing to the kids "sometimes it's okay and sometimes it's not") grandpa is going to hear "You're a perv, stop squeezing my kids' tushies". Which, I think, is what he SHOULD hear, but that might be my bias talking.

So, if you go with that, or if you come up with something else, be prepared for him to go defensive. You can either sooth him, or tell him the truth. That's up to you. I can tell you that *I'd* personally tell him the truth, but that's because of my own history. I do not mess around with that crap at ALL. and I don't are whose feelings I hurt.

You may want to take the other route







and you probably should, to preserve family peace. So, "No Gpa, I certainly have no problem with you touching the boys, but really, we are trying to teach them boundaries so that if, heaven forbid, someday, someone with less than pure intentions touches them, they know it's NOT okay. At their age, we have to deal in absolutes, so it's just NEVER okay." might be something that will placate him if he becomes defensive.

I definitely agree with you that it needs to be addressed.







I'm sure you'll do the right thing, and you'll do it well, Mama.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel* 
I guess....I squeeze my kids' tushies all the time. It's loving and affectionate, not inappropriate. Rather than ream out their grandfather, why not have a discussion with them about their bodies and tell them ANY TIME they feel uncomfortable, no matter WHO it is, they say "STOP!" and tell you?

Same here. This kind of affection can be completely non-sexual and should only be stopped if one of the kids is bothered by it or if you feel that it's titilating to anyone involved.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

she said the kids don't like it.


----------



## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

I agree with SharonAnne. Good post and great advice.







OR Mom...I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.


----------



## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


----------



## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

What about discussing this with your husband's Mom? Maybe tell her that your kids really do NOT like it when anyone tickles them and they don't want to hurt grandpa's feelings by telling him that.

Maybe mention they are feeling reluctant being around him because of this physical contact and you certainly want to respect their feelings on this. Remind her how she would feel if she was grabbed in a way that made her feel uncomfortable.

I do wonder why you didn't say anything while you were there and witnessing this behavior.

If grandma isn't around, then you must just tell grandpa that this behavior is a no-no anymore. No discussion, no argument, no excuses. Explain, nicely, that if the tickling occurs again, you and the kids are out of there until he respects *your* request. Explain the same to your husband.

And, remind your husband that just because things were done when he was a child and it was no big deal, times have changed and these are your children and THEY DON"T LIKE IT!


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
That being said, Grandpa pays no mind to what they want in these regards. He tickles and WE have to tell him to stop. He doesn't seem to care if the child doesn't like it

Oh, ok. That's where he's crossing the line, IMO. Sorry, I didn't see that part before BelgianSheepDog mentioned it.

One way to frame it is to talk to the grandfather and say that you're trying to teach your children how to protect themselves from unwanted touching and that his tickling and grabbing them against their wishes is sending them the wrong message that it's okay for people to do things to their bodies that they don't like.

Unless I had deeper concerns for this particular person, I wouldn't alienate him by going on the attack but would instead try to bring him over to my and the children's side in terms of teaching them how to take care of themselves. This could be a good lession for everyone involved and could actually make people closer rather than further apart.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I also come from a family where a little tushie squeeze was appropriate and not upsetting.

I think that's the key. In some families, that feels normal. In your family, it doesn't. That's what you tell the grandpa. Your dh wasn't freaked out by the horseplay (tickling, squeezing) but you aren't so touchy-feely, and your kids don't see him so often so they don't know each other's cues--and that's how to put it to him. It might be a cultural difference between the two families, but you want him to respect your wishes on this and not tickle or squeeze.

I respect your feelings about it. i get a little freaked out about tickling. My son likes to be tickled and enjoys that kind of horseplay, but it's really a challenge to make sure he gets to keep control. He's only a little guy, an adult tickling him could easily overwhelm what he wants, you know? I know one family that didn't allow any tickling, and that's a good way to deal with it, but it's also kind of restrictive.

Anyway, I hope this works out more easily than you are anticipating.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

So many great points. I get a bad feeling about this whole situation. I've tried to view this in a "harmless" manner and it just doesn't feel like that. At this point, I don't want to ever leave my children with him. He doesn't see or care what my children want or like (or the parents). I will talk to dh to have him do the talking, because I think that would be the best way to get this across. Now I have some words to use, so mabye he will feel more comfortable doing it. We should have handled it before leaving fil house. I feel so lucky that I only have to deal seeing fil 2 times a year (we live 2500 miles away).

I do get some sort of peace hearing that others find this acceptable. I REALLY don't want my fil to be a danger to my children. He's a good grandfather other than this. And my boys don't have many male role models in the family. We have raised our children to be in charge of their own bodies. One boy doesn't give or recieve kisses. That's his choice. It's going against our family rules to just ignore this, since my children DO NOT like this touching. I feel an urgency to let this man know its not ok to ever do again. I really need my husband's support on this, though, or his family will not take it seriously. They already think our parenting is strange....they are VERY mainstream/we are VERY crunchy!


----------



## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel* 
I guess....I squeeze my kids' tushies all the time. It's loving and affectionate, not inappropriate. Rather than ream out their grandfather, why not have a discussion with them about their bodies and tell them ANY TIME they feel uncomfortable, no matter WHO it is, they say "STOP!" and tell you?


I tend to agree with this and can't imagine being upset if my kids' poppy was playing with them this way (actually, I'm sure he has grabbed their booties at some point, we all do, and dd grabs ours).

I think telling the kids that they are always allowed to say no to physical contact that makes them uncomfortable is the best way to handle this.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Since you only see him twice a year, I would definitely recommend handling him gently, but firmly. Definitely never leave the boys alone with him.

As to the fact that since he does this out in the open and therefore it's probably harmless, I just want to point out that this isn't true (though it may be in your specific case) -- predators often start out with this kind of touching in front of other relatives, in order to desensitize the child and the family. Tickling and bottom touching are often precursors to more serious behavioural issues later on. I'm not saying that this is what your FIL is doing, but you're right to take it seriously. The biggest red flag for me is that he doesn't respect the boundaries of your children; doesn't stop before they've had enough, and definitely isn't reading or caring about the cues that they offer telling him to stop.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

I want to add that my FIL always wrestles around with my boys (they call it "rustling"







), and hugs them and the like, and this is healthy and necessary. They have a very strong bond and healthy relationship otherwise, and he totally respects their boundaries and physical autonomy.

My step-father, on the other hand, has never been allowed anywhere near my children. His hugs, kisses, bottom squeezing, etc, have always been massively inappropriate and borderline criminal.

Sometimes, it's hard to see the difference without having seen examples of both, but usually if your hackles are going up, then you have reason to be concerned. It doesn't mean that you have to do anything drastic, but it does mean that you have to take precautions to protect your children. It isn't the child's job to protect himself from this kind of behaviour -- that is a disservice we have done them. It is *always* our responsibility to protect them, as long as they are children, no matter where they happen to be, and no matter from whom we are protecting them. Of course, they need to know the difference between "good" touch and "bad" touch, but we should never assume that that alone can keep our children safe. Anymore than saying "no" and "stop" prevents a woman from being raped.


----------



## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
It isn't the child's job to protect himself from this kind of behaviour -- that is a disservice we have done them. It is *always* our responsibility to protect them, as long as they are children, no matter where they happen to be, and no matter from whom we are protecting them.


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

There are a couple of members of my husband's family who do similar things when playing with kids. Thankfully, we hardly ever see those people, so it's not really an issue for us.

Obviously your DH doesn't see the problem and isn't going to say anything to his father about this. He probably was touched in the same ways when he was growing up and doesn't think anything of it. If I were you, I would be the one to take the stand, since your DH obviously isn't going to. I wouldn't make a huge deal about it at first, maybe just casually say something like, "Let's don't grab each other's behinds, please. We're trying to teach the boys that it's not okay to do that." If he doesn't stop after that, I would have a serious conversation about it with him.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Well we give tushie squshies all the time so i wouldn't jump tot he conclusion he is a perv based on that.

However if you are the boys are uncomfortable with that sort of play one time telling him is all it should take. after that he needs to respect your boundries. i think you could approach it from a really neutral place and just say "ya know, I know its perfectly innocent and ya mean no harm, but i am not comfortable with it and the boys aren't because they haven't been raised with that sort of touching and we would like you to not do that any me. Thanks. They really appreciate it when you show them affection like **** and play with them this way : ***** "


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

We do tush squeezes in our house too - it's just part of overall hugs, snuggles and kisses that we share. But I can't imagine dd's grandparents being that physically familiar with her, kwim?

Dd snuggles in my arms, puts her little face right up to mine, takes baths with me... But O'ma and O'pa? The most she'll do with them is sit stiffly in their laps or give them little cheek-peck kisses. Most kids think it's kind of a big deal getting hugged or kissed by a grandparent. Unless your FIL has some unusual intimate closeness with your boys (which definitely doesn't seem to be the case), then I'd say butt squeezing is a little too personal.

But how to deal with it?

I agree with not leaving the boys alone with them. After that, I favor encouraging the boys to dictate what they're comfortable with - _with your support._ So, if grandpa grabs them in a hug squeezing their buttcheeks and they say 'stop!', or whatever you've discussed with them, I'd be sure to stand firm with them at the time: "Grandpa, Johnny doesn't like that. We'd prefer if you respected that, please."

That makes it seem more like an annoyance for the boys than an impropriety, which leaves Grandpa some face. I suspect if you approach it from the 'inappropriate' standpoint, it will forever devastate your (and your sons') relationship with their grandparents.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I'm so glad people are understanding how the wording of this confrontation is important to the outcome. I haven't been able to talk to dh, since he's been working long hours. We are usually such a joint force, I need him to be on my side with this as well. His parents will listen if he says it (hopefully).

I did equip my children with words to say if they didn't want to be touched, tickled, kissed, etc. They just aren't old enough to do that. I have to help them. For example, grandpa is tickling, my boy runs away and starts throwing toys at him. I say, "Please don't throw toys in the house". He continues to throw. I pick him up and start to carry him into the other room. He says "But I don't want grandpa to tickle me". I say, "ok, let him know that by using your words so he will know not to tickle." He says it to grandpa. My husband says, "yes, the boys don't like to be tickled or touched unless it's on their own terms". This played out several times during the trip. Grandpa never got the hint.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

if grnadpa isn't getting the point it is time to get firm and demand that grandpa respect boundries. all boundries. not just this one.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 

I did equip my children with words to say if they didn't want to be touched, tickled, kissed, etc. They just aren't old enough to do that. I have to help them. For example, grandpa is tickling, my boy runs away and starts throwing toys at him. I say, "Please don't throw toys in the house". He continues to throw. I pick him up and start to carry him into the other room. He says "But I don't want grandpa to tickle me". I say, "ok, let him know that by using your words so he will know not to tickle." He says it to grandpa. My husband says, "yes, the boys don't like to be tickled or touched unless it's on their own terms". This played out several times during the trip. Grandpa never got the hint.


If the boys were verbally expressing to him that they found the level of phsyical contact inappropriate and he CONTINUED to do it, then I'd like to edit my original advice









I can't tell from your posts whether Grandpa is just a fun ol' Poppy who isn't too good on picking up on hints, or if it's something more sinister.

Either way, I agree that he shouldn't be left alone with them, and that you need to address him about the issue in a calm, quiet moment. Although a letter or a phone call might be the easy way out, I would probably do it face to face (or rather have DH do it), because it will carry more impact and have less room for misinterpretation.


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I too can't get a read on if he's just an old-fashioned grampa whose pish-poshing our crunchy ways and just going ahead with his favorite way of bugging the little ones, or if it IS sinister. Something to think about is this, tho... Baby-boomers, and THEIR parents were VERY often the products of SEVERE physical and sexual abuse. It was the NORM. This leads SOME folks from those generations that came before to have pretty callous views of children as ENTITIES, other PEOPLE with preferences of their own. Grampa was picked on, by parents, siblings, peers, and sh*t rolls down hill to the youngest generations.

Inside, whether we're 10 or 90, we're all still products of what happened to us and how it was dealt with. Grampa might just need a frim reminder in THAT moment. My mom does, sometimes. She does the same tickly-grabbem-up stuff she did with me when I was little, and sometimes she goes a LITTLE too far, and I can see in Prenna's face that she's NOT down with it. She is an outspoken girl and will say NO NANA! But still my mom persists sometimes. That is where I say, "Nana, I hear Prenna's words, she said NO." This is EMBARASSING for my mom, but effective. It is the same verbage I use whan Prenna acts out against another child, So-&-So said, no, Prenna, I hear her words.

IF HE STILL PERSISTS, he's either stubborn, dumb, or rude, and that requires more private handling. A conversation between your 2 "camps"... Good luck, sista.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I don't know how to read FIL either. We only see him 2 times a year. Nobody played with me in this manner as a child. I was tickled to death sometimes, but this touching is so innappropriate to me. I will try to talk to DH tonight, but I know this will not be easy. He doesn't see this as an issue. He sees a problem with the boys not liking it, but no concerns about boundaries of ok touching and personal place touching. FIL takes his hands and grab, grab, grabs. I can't even tell what's really being touched. I wish my DH would have talked to him in person, when we were there, but it didn't happen. Now we are left to handle it either by phone, email, letter, or before the next visit. I do feel the best results would be if my husband confronted him. I still am not confident that will do the trick. My DH did try to say things to him (they don't like being touched, they don't like being tickled, they only like being touched on their own terms). He would stop for the moment, then do it again another time.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Maybe he would understand if you framed it in terms of the golden rule?


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

DH and I talked last night. He has an overall annoyance attitude about this. He says there is absolutely nothing sexual about what his father is doing. He did that to all the children in the family up until 19 years old. He doesn't just pat bottoms, he grab, grab, grabs......so I asked DH if he was touched that same way. He said yes. He said that's just his dad and a sign of affection.

I told him I didn't think it was appropriate and he was annoyed. He said he's not worried about it at the moment because it will be several months before we even see him again. He said if I want to say something, I can call him up and talk to him. I asked DH if his father was ever sexually abusive to anyone. He said no.

I'm considering contacting his brother to find out his opinion. I don't want to injure my children's relationship with their only grandfather. I just want him to stop with the butt feel-ups that my boys do not like. Yesterday my son said "Grandpa bited my butt". Then he started to cry and said "I don't want to talk about it". He's 3 years old. I have no idea what that meant. I told my husband what he said and DH said "oh, he was probably on the couch and dad just pretended to bite him"! I asked him if he thought that was appropriate and he just put it back on me. He said "you are being over paranoid, like you always are." I am over paranoid about my kids, but this stuff is wierd to me. I've been reading the tapping bottoms spinoff and I do feel a lot of those posts are strange. But all of those posts are VERY CLOSE relatives......we only see this man twice a year!!!!

So, unless I say something, nothing is going to be done about this until the next visit (6 to 8 months from now). If I say somthing now, it is likely to be laughe off, then forgotten about by the time we see them again (and a refresher will need to be given). What should I do?


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

What your DH seems to be missing is that his KIDS don't like it









Can you remind him that kids are people too?


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Wow, that's tough. Your Dh seems very defensive -- even if you were off base (and I don't think that you are), I would expect him to at least understand your concerns, and try to address the issues. None of the behaviour that you describe seems appropriate. How much of the visit is taken up with this sort of thing?

If nothing else, I would recommend contacting a counselor and running this past her/him. They can tell you if this is or isn't normal behaviour, and how to deal with it.

At the very least, I'm glad that you only have to deal with this 2X a year. And FWIW, I don't think that *you* have to worry about damaging the boys' relationship with their only grandfather -- he, the grandpa, seems to be undermining it all on his own.


----------



## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

*deal with it for the rest of my life.*

If you feel uncomfortable about this you need to put a stop to it right away. I would always trust a mama's instincts. Your children depend on you to keep them from harm and protect them. I wish my mom would have done the same for me.







: If they are laughing and playing and stuff at the time it's because they think that's what is expected of them. They may not fully understand what is appropriate and allowable by the older people in places of trust in their lives.

Reading the part where your 3 yr old started to cry about it really got to me. There is nothing good or fun about this situation. If I were you I would say something directly but I would probably just wait until the next time you see him. You don't have to be confrontational about it but just like a PP said, "I know you mean it in fun but our boys have expressed to us that they do not like it and we don't want them to think that they have to deal with touching that they are not comfortable with." And I would never ever ever ever leave them alone with him. Better safe than sorry. This could affect the rest of their lives.

In the mean time continue to let your boys know that they can trust you and give them lots of direction on how to tell people to stop bothering them. Valuable information anyways.

As for your DH I don't know what to tell you. It's obvious he doesn't take this as seriously as you do. You must be strong in trusting your instincts though even without his support. Again, your children depend on you.


----------



## andisunshine (May 2, 2006)

Honestly, if your dh says grandpa did this to everyone until they were 19 years old and that makes it okay, I would have a problem with that. Even if dh doesn't see eye to eye with you he needs to be the one to stand up to HIS father, being the man of the house. Doesn't he want to protect his own family? Obviously it makes the children and you uncomfortable and we can all remember things that made us uncomfortable when it comes to how other people have treated us. Does he want that kind of lasting impact on his children? What if it gets to the point where they don't like going to grandpa's because he's going to "do that again?" Maybe I'm wrong but it could be that your dh has some lasting shame from this sort of behavior from his father as a child and is afraid to say anything. Maybe he's afraid of his father.
My own father has done some inappropriate touching with me as an adolescent and let me tell you, there have been times when people have suggested letting him babysit my child and I will NEVER leave him alone with DS. I have a hard time even going to visit if DH isn't coming with. I think if you talk to your DH's brother you may find your worst fears confirmed but at least you'll KNOW and you'll be better able to keep your children out of harm's way. Just thinking about being nineteen and having an adult male relative grab me gives me the willies. I'm behind you all the way, OR mom.

Andi


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know...I'm not there to get the vibe from your FIL. Everything your dh says makes sense to me, except for one _major_ factor. *Your kids don't like it.* I have no issue with the butt touching stuff (can't quite picture what kind of grabbing you mean and have to admit it sounds unusual to me) _if_ it's a game that the kids are also playing. Whether or not your FIL is a perv (not there so have no opinion), he is _definitely_ someone who is disrespecting your children's personal boundaries.

Your dh's attitude is weird. It does make me wonder if there is some sexual abuse in his past, honestly. But, he may not be lying. People do block that kind of thing out, and you may be pushing him into a mental area that he's simply not prepared to enter.

If your child is crying about this stuff, then it's a problem, whether your dh was or wasn't abused and whether he was or wasn't okay with this "play". Your ds isn't your dh, so how your dh felt about it isn't relevant.

As for this:

Quote:

I don't want to injure my children's relationship with their only grandfather.
You're not. Their grandfather is. Your children _can't_ have a healthy relationship with an adult who doesn't respect their boundaries, and forces "affection" and "play" on them.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

The three year old crying about it and not wanting to talk after the fact concerns me. Maybe since your husband won't back you up talking to a professional will help you find a way through this situation. Also, to me the fact that your husband got SO defensive rings some alarm bells.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
DH and I talked last night. He has an overall annoyance attitude about this. He says there is absolutely nothing sexual about what his father is doing. He did that to all the children in the family up until 19 years old. He doesn't just pat bottoms, he grab, grab, grabs......so I asked DH if he was touched that same way. He said yes. He said that's just his dad and a sign of affection.

It does not matter even a little bit whether this is sexual. Who cares? It's violating the children's boundaries and it will ruin their relationship with the grandfather. If he can't stop himself from doing this, then you have to stop him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
I'm considering contacting his brother to find out his opinion. I don't want to injure my children's relationship with their only grandfather. I just want him to stop with the butt feel-ups that my boys do not like. Yesterday my son said "Grandpa bited my butt".

I really don't see why it's on you to prove that there is something inappropriate about this. The children don't like it and it makes you uncomfortable. He has to stop doing it. That's all. Your dh has to back you up, even if it didn't bug him when his dad did it, because your kids don't like it.

There is no inalienable right to show affection to someone in a way they don't like!

If it would make you feel better, spell out what you want from the grandfather, run it by your dh, and email it to him. I don't think it's necessary though--what's necessary is to stop him from doing this, every time. If you have to, say "No horseplay, the boys don't like it" and physically intervene. That's all.

You know if he was intent on spanking them, that's what you would do. A lot of people do things out of the goodness of their hearts that are just violent and terrible. Don't get confused by the whole "is it sexual" issue. Who cares if it's sexual? It's not okay to do this!

If he can't conform to basic polite behavior with you and your family, don't visit him.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

I agree w/the pps in that it doesn't matter whether it's sexual or not, as far as stopping the behaviour. It has to stop. And your Dh's ambivalence about it stopping is really confusing and disturbing to me, especially in light of the fact that it frightens your children. Does your dh have issues with confronting his father in general, or just in respect to this issue?

At any rate, I think a qualified counselor's opinion would be invaluable at this point.


----------



## CJ 5 (May 30, 2004)

In my opinion its hard to confront this long distance. I would never let my kids alone with that particular person even leaving them with grandma would worry me. If you got a bad vibe off ot it you should trust your instincts. When you visit again the first time it happens simply walk over to the grandfather and talk to him privately Just simply and politely tell him that this behavior is making you uncomfortable and to discontinue it. Look him square in the eye and just be polite but give him that ( I am the mother and I will rip your arms off ) look in your eyes. Don't even deal with the husband, trust me I have a good husband and he will say he is going to handle his family and totally doesn't.

My theory is that the grandfather may be harmless but if he isn't he now knows that you are a force to be reckoned with and will think twice about trying anything with your kids.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I'm not concerned or surprised by my DH's reaction to this conversation. He thinks I overkill a lot of stuff and he reacts the same way if he slightly disagrees with any topic we discuss. I can't get any information or come to any conclusions going by how he reacts.

He doesn't feel it's necessary to call up FIL and discuss this now. We are home and there's 2500 miles between us. I'm just still reeling from the trip and concerned about ALL future visits with his family. I do feel scared and a bit powerless as well. What if we got divorced and I wasn't there to stop this? Or what if DH feels it's totally fine to leave the kids with his parents and I don't? I don't trust FIL or MIL. Period. I don't know if my children are in any real threat or not, but I don't want them to spend time alone with these people. And it worries me that DH isn't right along beside me. Maybe he is. Sometimes he does agree with me, but doesn't really show it with words. He's not the kind of guy to say "Yes, honey, you're right" about ANYTHING! He did try to tell FIL several times to stop touching. FIL would stop for the moment, but would do the same thing the next day.

There's no doubt this is an issue that needs to be addressed. FIL will have to be told, using words that get the seriousness addressed. I guess we can do it before the next visit. I'm just feeling really great to not have to worry about him being close for a long time.


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

OR MOM: The overwhelming attitude is that this needs be addressed, this grab-grab-grabbing of the bottoms by Grampa. But were u asking HOW to address it? That's what I got from your posts.

If so, there are any number of ways; it sounds like you've tried a couple of not so direct, more polite ways. Before a battle ensues between u and DH, maybe you should dicuss some "working definitions" with him. Sometimes, partners speak 2 different languages, literally. When u say "This concerns me", he hears "I have a complaint" which makes him feel defensive. Start by telling him, you'd like to talk about the situation YOU perceive with FIL, and that you'd like an opportunity to clarify. Tell him your END GOAL is to achieve MUTUAL understanding, so that you can maintain the feeling of being unified that you are accustomed to. Let him know that when you are odds, it compromises that feeling. Ask him just to listen until you have presented your whole idea to him, defining the terms u use "When our son is crying because he doesn't like a touch, it doesn't matter who did the touching or what that person's intent was..." then RECIPROCATE. Let him have a turn, so that you just listen, creating an enviroment where he feels secure in telling u his perception. What you'll need to make clear, too is that ultimately, it's not about YOUR perceptions, tho it's important to equally understand them... The bottom-line (no pun intended







) is that whether they're 3 and sensitive to touch, or 13 and moody... if a person doesn't like a touch, and has expressed that dislike, to continue is a form of abuse. And Grampa may need to know that he's causing TEARS. That your DS is extremely NOT OKAY with these touches and that WHATEVER his INTENT... it is not okay to persist. Period. That's some verbage you could use...


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

If I were you, actually, I would write him a snail mail, so he gets MY HANDWRITING, and tell him that you came home very upset about this, and want to clear the air so that your future visits will be something the boys look forward to, rather than with apprehension and worry over how gramps will grab their butts.

I'd tell him, "I don't like seeing you grab my boy's behinds at all, and, I'm not going to put up with it. (He was a jerk about it before, so this is the kind of guy who needs firm, threatening rules, and he still may not heed them, so be prepared to take further action, like screaming at him and leaving, or have a squirt gun handy and dowse him.)

"The boys don't like it either, Hubby doesn't like it, though he remembers it as harmless and basically affection from when he was a kid. But, dear FIL, it's a new world, and this very tickling and grabbing of personal body parts is viewed as "bordering on" molesting. (It is molesting.) So, in order to teach my children to protect themselves from others taking advantage of them, I have to enforce a NO BUTT-GRABBING RULE, unfortunately.

Now, since you did ignore our requests that you stop it last time we visited, I have assured the boys that I will protect them from the butt grabbing."

Personally, I'd say you have to do this when you are prepared to get the worst reaction you can't even imagine, like they accuse you of molesting the kids. These type of confrontations don't play well, the guilty AND the innocent are hurt by it. But the innocent will understand and accept and HELP you. You have to be ready to have the relationship end, because they might react that way. Take a microrecorder with you and record the discussion for posterity.

Your husband may be in some degree of denial of just how much he really hated the grabbing, or how much he felt violated, no one to tell. And denial is making him say, "you're paranoid." Hey, that's part of your job description as a mom. He may actually be too affected by what happened to him (I'm assuming just grabbing) to be in touch with it inside him.

Okay, well, good luck. Mention it here and there, give it a break, let hubby sleep on it, get a book at the library about the subject, and still, don't push him to "get over" whatever he's dealing with if anything. You set them straight. Hubby may take years to get to that point, if ever. You do it, you talk to them. Then when they complain to hubby, he can just say, Oh yea, we're training them against child molesters.


----------



## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
DH and I talked last night. He has an overall annoyance attitude about this. He says there is absolutely nothing sexual about what his father is doing. He did that to all the children in the family up until 19 years old. He doesn't just pat bottoms, he grab, grab, grabs......so I asked DH if he was touched that same way. He said yes. He said that's just his dad and a sign of affection.

I told him I didn't think it was appropriate and he was annoyed. He said he's not worried about it at the moment because it will be several months before we even see him again. He said if I want to say something, I can call him up and talk to him. I asked DH if his father was ever sexually abusive to anyone. He said no.

I'm considering contacting his brother to find out his opinion. I don't want to injure my children's relationship with their only grandfather. I just want him to stop with the butt feel-ups that my boys do not like. Yesterday my son said "Grandpa bited my butt". Then he started to cry and said "I don't want to talk about it". He's 3 years old. I have no idea what that meant. I told my husband what he said and DH said "oh, he was probably on the couch and dad just pretended to bite him"! I asked him if he thought that was appropriate and he just put it back on me. He said "you are being over paranoid, like you always are." I am over paranoid about my kids, but this stuff is wierd to me. I've been reading the tapping bottoms spinoff and I do feel a lot of those posts are strange. But all of those posts are VERY CLOSE relatives......we only see this man twice a year!!!!

So, unless I say something, nothing is going to be done about this until the next visit (6 to 8 months from now). If I say somthing now, it is likely to be laughe off, then forgotten about by the time we see them again (and a refresher will need to be given). What should I do?


Listen, this is the nuclear bomb option and I almost never would suggest this option, but this is one of those times.

I would give an ultimatum. Two choices: protect his children, or lose them.

Sorry, but _*this behavior is inappropriate*_. You are not being paranoid. Your DH is being defensive because he was molested by his father and can't accept this to be true without radically revising his understanding of his own identity and his father's.

He can stand up and be a man, or he can be a part-time father. His choice. Your job is the one you're doing and he's not: to protect your children.

Good for you.

I'm sorry to be so adamant about it. Without going into detail which isn't necessary here anyway, a close member of my family was sexually abused by a close relative. His parents denied that anything was wrong and continued to expose him to this person for the rest of his childhood.

Major repercussions. Not just for him, but for his wife, his kids. He wasn't the only victim.

Only until the close relative's son threatened to kill the relative with his own bare hands did the sexual abuse stop.

*Someone needs to step in early, before anything happens.*


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

This is a sample letter I came up with:

I'm writing in regards to our visit last week. There's an issue I want to bring to your attention.

We feel the butt grabbing game that you play with ___ and ____ is overstepping some boundaries. We would like that type of playing to stop. ___ and ___ are particular about how they are touched and by whom they are touched. They have both expressed that they don't like when you tickle them or get their butts.

I feel it's important to discuss this now for a few reasons.
1. The butt-grabbing is not something I was raised around and I don't feel comfortable with that type of affection towards the boys.
2. One of the boys tried to tell me that "Grandpa bited my butt", but he could hardly say the words because he was CRYING! Then he said he didn't want to talk about it.

I know this is a form of affection you like to show, but our boys don't like it. We parent our boys to be in control of their own bodies and they have both expressed, several times, that they don't like those touches. I am simply standing up for my children. I have no ill feelings towards you, I just want that type of play to stop for good. No butt touches/taps/grabs/pinches.

The boys LOVE to help you work, watch you work, go on walks, play with Daisy dog, look for bugs, play with trains, play with trucks, cars, machines, etc. They love you dearly as a Grandpa.


----------



## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm just coming to this thread now - I think that I would take out the part about how you "weren't raised with" butt-grabbing. Make the letter all about your children's discomfort and the inappropriateness of continuing to do something they are uncomfortable with. If you make it about your discomfort or background, it'll get interpreted as being all about the comfort level of his uptight daughter-in-law.

Other than that, great letter!


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I agree that part should come out. Also, I might say "We request that this type of playing stop" rather than "we would like." Sounds a little more assertive. Looking good, though!


----------



## AladdinsLamp (Sep 12, 2005)

I think it is important for the letter to say

This behavior needs to stop. Or this behavior must stop.

Not "we request..." or the other softer language.

Frankly, after reading all the posts, I wonder if you should not just join your son throwing toys at grandpa when's he's being a **** and ignoring the child's signs that he doesn't want to be grabbed.

Or get a spray bottle and spray grandpa right in the face... just like you would do with a misbehaving cat.
ARGH

I do understand why you can't do this. I would not give my child a hard time about throwing toys in this situation though. I think that is good for him to do, since his words weren't being listened to. (I'm probably alone on that though...)

Allie


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
I would give an ultimatum. Two choices: protect his children, or lose them.

Sorry, but _*this behavior is inappropriate*_. You are not being paranoid. Your DH is being defensive because he was molested by his father and can't accept this to be true without radically revising his understanding of his own identity and his father's.

He can stand up and be a man, or he can be a part-time father.

How does this protect the OP's children? What happens when FIL comes to visit his son, and his son, convinced that this behaviour is harmless, leaves her children with this man? Unless one can get a restraining order or supervised access or something, leaving our children's fathers over parenting differences _doesn't_ protect our kids - it protects our consciences, but that's about it.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Great letter, ORMom!! I would take out number 1, like the others suggested, and maybe firm up some of the language to make it stronger. Otherwise, it's a great start, and I applaud you for taking this step on behalf of your kiddos!


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How does this protect the OP's children? What happens when FIL comes to visit his son, and his son, convinced that this behaviour is harmless, leaves her children with this man? Unless one can get a restraining order or supervised access or something, leaving our children's fathers over parenting differences _doesn't_ protect our kids - it protects our consciences, but that's about it.

I agree w/Storm Bride. I understand your point, and agree w/the impulse, but taking away their father (and her husband!) in order to remove the grandfather is extreme and untenable. It also wouldn't prevent the grandfather from seeing the children, especially since we assume that he hasn't actually done anything criminal yet (highly inappropriate and suspicous, but not actually criminal).

I think that ORMom is handling the situation well, and I assume that if she needs to resort to heavier methods in the future in order to protect her kids, she will. Her children aren't in imminent danger, with the grandfather 2500 miles away.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I might try the spray bottle on my mil.


----------



## AladdinsLamp (Sep 12, 2005)

LOL about the spray bottle.

In this situation, because it seems the OP feels very strongly that this needs to be handled, even though the grandparent is far away, I would make sure that custody is spelled out in your wills and that there is a provision in the document given to the guardians you choose (and backups)that specify that you do NOT want your children to be with those grandparents alone, EVER, until the children are 18 years of age.

Also, I do think you should pursue some kind of counseling with your husband, because he is not standing up to this issue and I would be concerned in the case that I passed away and the children were left exclusively in the care of the husband.

Allie


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Great advice, AladdinsLamp! I'm working on the letter. I'll post an update when it's more complete. Thanks so much everyone!


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AladdinsLamp* 
LOL about the spray bottle.

In this situation, because it seems the OP feels very strongly that this needs to be handled, even though the grandparent is far away, I would make sure that custody is spelled out in your wills and that there is a provision in the document given to the guardians you choose (and backups)that specify that you do want your children to be with those grandparents alone, EVER, until the children are 18 years of age.

Also, I do think you should pursue some kind of counseling with your husband, because he is not standing up to this issue and I would be concerned in the case that I passed away and the children were left exclusively in the care of the husband.

Allie









: Definitely good advice!


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

OR MOM, I think your letter was well worth it and second the thoughts re; removing references to your upbringing and personal preferences. Grampa might use that as fuel for an attack on you. Definitely just be clear that ut is in you children's best interest that he repect the boundary being set.

Is DH any closer to understading your perception, and backing u, yet, or are u on your own facing this?


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Update. I took out the personal preference part of my letter, added some stuff about trying to teach the boys where they can and cannot touch each other and felt like the letter was sounding pretty good. So I let dh read the letter. He said it sounded good, but still needed some work (my dh's way of supporting the letter). I then said, "well, it does still need work, but I really feel your parents would rather it come from you". HE AGREED!!! So, we may be back to the beginning with this, but dh is willing to write the letter and use what I've written down for a guideline. YEAH!

I also feel I need to protect my kids from staying alone with il's. Any suggestions on that? I should obviously make a copy of the letter and date it. What else do I do? (In case I died or dh and I divorced, etc.).


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
Update. I took out the personal preference part of my letter, added some stuff about trying to teach the boys where they can and cannot touch each other and felt like the letter was sounding pretty good. So I let dh read the letter. He said it sounded good, but still needed some work (my dh's way of supporting the letter). I then said, "well, it does still need work, but I really feel your parents would rather it come from you". HE AGREED!!! So, we may be back to the beginning with this, but dh is willing to write the letter and use what I've written down for a guideline. YEAH!

I also feel I need to protect my kids from staying alone with il's. Any suggestions on that? I should obviously make a copy of the letter and date it. What else do I do? (In case I died or dh and I divorced, etc.).

You cannot will people. So you can't spell out in your will, "If I die, X and Y will go to Auntie Gertrude" the way you might leave your favorite doily









But you CAN express strong preference, and you can also include in your will a written letter about WHY certain people should not get custody. When the judge reviews the will and determines custody order, he will generally take your feelings into account unless there is a good reason not to.


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

In my experience, guardianship can be pre-arranged in case of death, much the same way as a living will is written up... worth looking into, in terms of who shall take over guardianship in case of death...

OR MOM, I am SO relieved that your dh took another look at this issue and has agreed to involve himself... Persistance pays.

Maybe the issue will be resolved and you might not HAVE to worry about kids being alone with IL's?


----------



## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

Just a couple of thoughts.
In our family, tushie-grabbing was sometimes part of playful behavior.
I still grab my son's tush when he runs by giggling.
But having said that, I think that if mom and kids are both uncomfortable with it, then by all means something should be said.
I think what really bothers me is that grandpa continues this kind of play even when the kids don't like it....even if he were grabbing their feet (just substituting another part of the body), it would not be appropriate.
And I also want to add that although it is an adult's ultimate responsibility to take care of kids, I do believe it is VERY important to empower kids and to teach them/tell them that it is absolutely OKAY to speak up when they are not comfortable with the way anyone is touching them or harrassing them.


----------



## spin462002 (May 7, 2005)

From a grandparents perspective, I would be insulted and hurt if you were to infer ill intentions in my affectionate horse-play. I would tread very carefully if I were you and if you don't want to alienate this man (and potentially your husband too) over this issue. You have no evidence of anything unhealthy, in fact you have the opposite, open and public displays of affection, hardly anything nasty and/or disgusting. Dare I suggest you are over reacting? Just because you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean he is doing anything wrong. Your boys are under 3? I would not accept a child rejecting affection at that age. I don't think THAT is emotionally healthy.
Maybe your father in law is nothing but well intentioned and loving? Your husband has confirmed that. Maybe you should listen to him?

As a result of our current obsession with child abuse, good men are falsely accused every day. How demeaning to them and how disrespectful. What does a man have to do to prove he is innocent these days? Once accused, the man feels his reputation is tarnished forever, no matter what evidence is produced or innocence proven. Innocent men have ended their lives because they feel there is no way they can reclaim their integrity. Please tread carefully with this issue, innocent men usually take false accusations very badly.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002* 
Your boys are under 3? I would not accept a child rejecting affection at that age. I don't think THAT is emotionally healthy.

EXCUSE ME??????????

At what age does one gain the immense privilege of being able to "reject affection"? And from whom, pray tell, is one allowed to "reject" such attention? Is it emotionally unhealthy for a mere two year old to scream "no" when a strange man grabs her? What if he really means well, poor old fellow?

For crying out loud. And we wonder why sexual assault is epidemic in our culture.







:


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I do want to handle this situation in a way that grandpa keeps his dignity, BUT more importantly I want this type of play to stop. I've looked at it in the way of "loving play" (even while it was happening) and it's just not that type of situation. Grabbing a tushie is one thing, but grab, grab, tickle, feel right up into the butt crack is NOT appropriate play for any age (grandpa or child).

This is a situation where he just doesn't see where he's gone too far. After 2 to 3 years of him not touching butts, I will maybe regain my trust in him. This isn't your normal butt grabbing that many are talking about. Plus, the boys only see him 2 times a year, so he's hardly someone they are very close to (giving a hug is pushing it for physical contact).

And my boys are not into physical contact much, unless they choose. For example, my one son just doesn't like kisses. He hates to be kissed, so we respect that and don't kiss him. We are teaching them that their bodies are thiers, and if they don't want or don't like something we respect that. This grandparent play is going against that frame of teaching.

I do understand this could really hurt a relationship. That's why I'm asking for help and opinions. I do want and need my husband's support on this, though. I'm happy that he is going to work with me to find a gentle way to tell fil.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002* 
Your boys are under 3? I would not accept a child rejecting affection at that age. I don't think THAT is emotionally healthy.
.


People like you are the reason that children are sexually abused and don't report it. HOW DARE YOU say that my child does not have the right to protect his own body.

What a ghastly, ghastly, ghastly attitude.

If you were my kids' grandparent, you would not being seeing them with that kind of attitude. I wouldn't want someone so disrespectful of them around them.


----------



## amnda527 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002* 
Just because you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean he is doing anything wrong.

She is not the only one uncomfortable, her CHILDREN are uncomfortable. She is trying to protect them. I don't know if you have children, but if you do, or if you did, and they approached you crying about something that bothered them, doesn't that deserve some action? Just because he is a young child should the issue be ignored?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002* 
As a result of our current obsession with child abuse, good men are falsely accused every day. How demeaning to them and how disrespectful. What does a man have to do to prove he is innocent these days? Once accused, the man feels his reputation is tarnished forever, no matter what evidence is produced or innocence proven. Innocent men have ended their lives because they feel there is no way they can reclaim their integrity. Please tread carefully with this issue, innocent men usually take false accusations very badly.

I think this is part of the reason she is posting in the first place. She is trying to get help from fellow mama's on how to approach her FIL without this happening. This issue cannot be ignored. Flat out. Something HAS to be done. She already made up her mind on that. The question is, how to do it somewhat gently. If you read the sample letter that she posted, you will see that she is not "accusing" FIL of sexually molesting her children. She is just saying that the children do not like what it going on, and that she is sticking up for them.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think that's why it would be best approached as 'Ah, ah, ah! Ds doesn't like that kind of play. Our parenting beliefs are that he shouldn't have to endure that if he doesn't want to. So please stop. Thanks, grandpa, we love you.'

There's no need to go into whether it is 'appropriate' or not. Ds doesn't like it. Cut it out, gramps. NOW.


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I can totally see why a grandparent would respond this way to such a thread... but the unfortunate fact is that 1 in 4 people between the ages of 20 and 65 reports having been molested by someone they knew, during adolescence. It is naive to try to protect men who may or may not be guilty of such crimes... the numbers don't lie... at some point, it really isn't about what a person intends by their actions, be it bum-grabbing, or whatever; but rather, it is ultimately about how the _subject_ of such actions feels about it.

Plenty of convicted molestors STILL claim that they were in LOVE with their victim, and that love was reciprocal. The victims tell a very different story.

By NO MEANS am I implying that OR MOM's FIL is of such caliber, but as a mother, it is her right, and her JOB to be concerned if her children WHATEVER their age register discomfort or trauma; to investigate and act on their behalf, and God forbid, handle damage-control on bruised egos etc, after the fact.


----------



## Vortexing (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
DH and I talked last night. He has an overall annoyance attitude about this. He says there is absolutely nothing sexual about what his father is doing. He did that to all the children in the family up until 19 years old. He doesn't just pat bottoms, he grab, grab, grabs......so I asked DH if he was touched that same way. He said yes. He said that's just his dad and a sign of affection.

First of all,







b/c DH didn't seem to be with you when you posted this (I didn't read through the entire thread, sorry). But I just wanted to reply to this part, b/c this makes me REALLY nervous. When you hear stuff like, "he always does this," or that he "did it to all the children" that's a BAD sign, especially if it's a behavior that makes anyone uncomfortable. Not to say that your DH and his siblings were molested, but I'd have to guess that that behavior is probably on the molestation side of the spectrum IYKWIM.

I hope you find what works best for your family, especially for your boys. I'm glad you're such a good mama that you'll stand up for them when they're too young to do it for themselves.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Thank you all so much for such wonderful support with this! I will keep updating to let you all know how things go. Thank you, thank you for every perspective given. They all helped me feel strong and able to handle this in a way that wouldn't distroy family relations (and possibly marital relations).


----------



## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
EXCUSE ME??????????

At what age does one gain the immense privilege of being able to "reject affection"? And from whom, pray tell, is one allowed to "reject" such attention? Is it emotionally unhealthy for a mere two year old to scream "no" when a strange man grabs her? What if he really means well, poor old fellow?

For crying out loud. And we wonder why sexual assault is epidemic in our culture.







:

I have to say that I agree with you...
Children should be able to assert themselves when it comes to what does/doesn't feel acceptable to their bodies and have that respected. Of course there is such thing as protective use of force....but that's a totally different issue. Children are people and the mentality that they don't have the right to their bodies infers that children are property somehow. It very much reminds me of the mentality where a wife can't say no to sex with her husband.


----------



## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002* 
From a grandparents perspective, I would be insulted and hurt if you were to infer ill intentions in my affectionate horse-play. I would tread very carefully if I were you and if you don't want to alienate this man (and potentially your husband too) over this issue. You have no evidence of anything unhealthy, in fact you have the opposite, open and public displays of affection, hardly anything nasty and/or disgusting. Dare I suggest you are over reacting? Just because you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean he is doing anything wrong. Your boys are under 3? I would not accept a child rejecting affection at that age. I don't think THAT is emotionally healthy.
Maybe your father in law is nothing but well intentioned and loving? Your husband has confirmed that. Maybe you should listen to him?

As a result of our current obsession with child abuse, good men are falsely accused every day. How demeaning to them and how disrespectful. What does a man have to do to prove he is innocent these days? Once accused, the man feels his reputation is tarnished forever, no matter what evidence is produced or innocence proven. Innocent men have ended their lives because they feel there is no way they can reclaim their integrity. Please tread carefully with this issue, innocent men usually take false accusations very badly.









: She is not accusing the grandfather of anything. The issue here is NOT the grandfather's right to show affection in this way. The issue is that she is not comfortable with the grandfather touching her children's buttocks in this way. It doesn't matter if he means it in an affectionate way. Her right, no, her duty AS A PARENT is to listen to her own instincts and protect her children whenever, however, and whyever she sees fit!!!!!


----------



## rachelernst (Apr 27, 2005)

http://www.cnvc.org/

Rosenberg has several books.

Pam Leo gives a quick description of the basic technique in her book Connection Parenting.

This is a needs-based communication method. So, something like this:

*Ben NEEDS a certain amount of personal space. When you ____ it invades his personal space and makes him feel ______ [threatened, confused]. DH, brother, sister, and I respect Ben's feelings by not [touching him] and by stopping immediately when he says "no". Are you willing to respect Ben's space in the future?*

I also feel that you should be there to put a stop to the inappropriate behavior WHILE it is happening. Show your kids by example what kind of words they can use to stop it, by modeling the communication/words. This will show them that people can be stood up to, they can link the negative behavior with a positive form of countering it. And, they will know that you are there to defend them and they are not powerless to this situation--maybe they will feel better talking to you about it later if you have defended them verbally at that moment.

Beyond that, I also agree, don't leave the kids alone with him for any time--I wouldn't. Caveat: if there are other adults around it should be okay. You are lucky they are not living in the same town with you.

Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen may also interest you about physical play and it's therapeutic value.

Also, does he have a wife? Could you talk to her first? Maybe get a read on this behavior.


----------



## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greensleeves* 







: She is not accusing the grandfather of anything. The issue here is NOT the grandfather's right to show affection in this way. The issue is that she is not comfortable with the grandfather touching her children's buttocks in this way. It doesn't matter if he means it in an affectionate way. Her right, no, her duty AS A PARENT is to listen to her own instincts and protect her children whenever, however, and whyever she sees fit!!!!!









: And she did mention that the kids were not comfortable with it either yet grandpa persisted...
If something doesn't feel comfortable for our body, no means no right? Stop means stop. The person doing the behavior to our body doesn't get to keep doing it because they "mean well".
I believe the OP is acting as a great advocate for her children who may still be learning to advocate for themselves.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom* 
So I let dh read the letter. He said it sounded good, but still needed some work (my dh's way of supporting the letter). I then said, "well, it does still need work, but I really feel your parents would rather it come from you". HE AGREED!!! So, we may be back to the beginning with this, but dh is willing to write the letter and use what I've written down for a guideline. YEAH!

I'm a little confused. Hasn't your dh told him that the behavior needs to be stopped already and wasn't that ineffective? Or am I mistaken? If it's the case, I'm not understanding how the same request in written form will make a difference.

I know the general consensus is that the spouse whose parents are the problem should be the one to handle things. But, personally, I think this sort of situation is an exception. Sometimes it's the other spouse who has more power - the "stranger" to the family speaking out can have a greater impact, especially where boundary lines are concerned. As long as your husband backs you up, of course.

About your dh's reaction during your talk - it's completely understandable. Children are defensive about their parents. Even if he does feel something is off, IMO it's too much to ask as of now that he agree that his father might be a pervert, or that he even stand for his father being labeled as such. That doesn't mean he shouldn't protect his children from actions they find objectionable, though. Those are two separate things.

Good luck. FWIW, I think the letter should come from you and that you should, of course, also continue to empower your children - by openly being their advocate and by continuing to teach them to use their own voices at the same time. Good job on that.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Dragonfly, Dh and I had a discussion at his parents house (sort of) and he told his father while he was playing physically with the children that the children didn't like to be touched that way. They only like to be touched on their own terms. He never came out and said "Stop grabbing butts" so I don't know if fil ever got the hint or point of what dh was saying. I would think that he understood, then 2 days later he would be at it again.

Dh doesn't think that fil is being out of line with grabbing of the butts (I do), but he DOES see that the boys don't like it. He sees they don't like it in the same way he sees they don't like tickles. He doesn't see a problem with the butt grabbing game other than the kids not liking it. I, on the other hand, think that's a private part of the body and don't care for that type of play coming from grandpa. I've followed advice from here and chose to not tell Grandpa MY preferences about the play and go with the fact that the kids don't like it. But without stressing MY dislike for that type of play, I worry he will somehow find it ok to play like that in the future. Grandpa may rationalize the play later, "oh, they were too young then, maybe now that their 5 they'll like it". If I say something about ME thinking the play is innappropriate, then he will know my feelings and if it's EVER done again, he WILL be considered a PERV!

I've thought a lot about the fact it might be more effective coming from me. I want this to be mentioned one time and then the problem be solved. Dh may not stress the importance enough. Or it may not be taken seriously enough coming from him. Personally, I don't care too much about what fil and mil think of me anymore. I just want the grabbing to stop. You've brought up a good point.


----------



## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

OR Mom, I completely agree with what you are saying about the inappropriateness of the butt-grabbing. I find that hightly inappropriate as well, especially the way you described it. Honestly, that would REALLY concern me. I just don't think that is appropriate behavior between an adult and a child, especially a grandfather. Dh and I do grab each others butts, and it is defintiely playful AND sexual in nature. It isn't something we would ever do to our children or anyone else. The way you described it, it does sound like sexual abuse to me. The fact that your child would come crying to you saying "grandpa bited my butt" is really alarming.

Honestly, if it were me, I would get really hard core. I would stand up to FIL and DEMAND that he stop the butt-grabbing as you feel it is inappropriate and wrong, and that if he continues to do so you will have to sever all contact with him, and perhaps even call the police as you have to protect your children. If you want to give an explanation, you could say that you are teaching your boys are "private parts" and personal boundries and part of this is that NO ONE is allowed to touch their private parts, unless it is absolutely necessary, and that means him (and you and your dh, etc., etc) . And, honestly, I would say IF you FIL reacts badly to hearing that or continues to do it, then I think you have a REAL problem and definitely need to sever contact with FIL. After all, if it really was only playful and innocent, I can't see how he would react badly to you asking him to stop. I could see him being embarrassed or something, but if I were unknowingly doing something to someone else's child which they found inappropriate and they told me to stop it, I would most defitneily stop it, and be ultra-careful I wouldn't do it again. If he doesn't stop, then he dosn't respect your boundries and those of his grandchildren, which is a major problem.

Good luck..what a tough situation to be in.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sidshappymamma* 
To me the issue is less about confronting your FIL and more about protecting your boys (i.e. they should never be in FIL's care alone). This may be overkill, but better safe than sorry.









:


----------



## rachelernst (Apr 27, 2005)

If you let DH write the letter and send it, then you still have the option to send your own letter in the future, which would then have more impact than if DH never sent his letter and you opt to send your own letter first (2 letters vs. 1). And, if you send your own letter first, then events may unfold and DH might then refuse to write his letter later. So, do what you have to do to have DH write the letter first... and hold your cards.

HOWEVER, that said, I think holding off on this issue totally, until the next visit, makes sense. Then, any issues that come up next visit will be fresh and usable as examples. You can deal with it in the moment then and it will have more impact. You're right, the words, spoken or written, may be forgotten by the next visit. You also have time to reflect and in a few months you may have new ideas on how to handle it, also gain your fortitude and your peace about how to deal with it, instead of being reactionary in any way. I'm NOT saying to back off at all... just delay. Pick your moment.

We had an uncle in our family who always horseplayed with us at Christmas... the one time of year we saw him. He never grabbed butts. But, even so, it felt wrong. I always wished our parents had stopped it.

"I want this to be mentioned one time and then the problem be solved."
--Maybe this is asking too much. (?)
"I do want to handle this situation in a way that grandpa keeps his dignity"
--you might have to keep reminding him more gently in order to accomplish this(?)
"I'm considering contacting his brother to find out his opinion."
--I probably wouldn't do that. That might be inviting a feudal situation or asking to take sides, etc. I would ask for information, maybe, probably in a more covert way. I wouldn't get into discusssing it at length with other people of DH's family unless I was very close to them. Exception: BIL has kids? Maybe HIS wife has issues too? Maybe BIL would then have reason to be involved in the situation (ie. some kind of family "intervention"?)

"He doesn't feel it's necessary to call up FIL and discuss this now. We are home and there's 2500 miles between us. I'm just still reeling from the trip and concerned about ALL future visits with his family. I do feel scared and a bit powerless as well."
--I agree with DH on the timing. See above. You're Mama Bear emotions are up on this one. Take a breather. Your boys are safe right now! You can't pounce on a predator unless they're close enough. Find your own place of peace and power before deciding what to do.

"What if we got divorced and I wasn't there to stop this?"
--Is divorce an option for you right now? Not good to entertain this kind of thought. I understand the "what if I died" question and I'm sure that would have different solutions than the divorce question. Many of us, I'm sure, have passing thoughts that parenting on our own would be easier... but, that's usually not true. We're just stressed and having a hard time dealing with the current problem. It generally would NOT be easier to be a single mom. This question or thought is just clouding your judgment at this time! You and your DH are generally a united front, right? So, hunker back into the security of your marriage, find your strength there, and don't act until a moment when the marriage is acting out of a position of strength. You will have much greater impact when you are together on this issue, or any issue. Again, you have time to cultivate all of these.

Please see my original post for some great references on NonViolent Communication.


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

OR MOM, just out of personal curiosity... I saw a post in another thread where you talked about your fam being multi-cultural. Just wondering if you think culture-clash is a part of this, at all...? Like, part of why the communication of your and your children's feelings about this isn't getting thru.

I've some Argentinian friends whose mother is EXTREMELY grabby of ALL the babies... ESPECIALLY the bum pinching and grabbing, and one in-law got VERY concerned. Words were exchanged, it nearly came to blows, and the family was never the same... and she's still a grabber.

Just wondering if this is an aspect of what you're experiencing.


----------



## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
...as a mother, it is her right, and her JOB to be concerned if her children WHATEVER their age register discomfort or trauma; to investigate and act on their behalf, and God forbid, handle damage-control on bruised egos etc, after the fact.

I would like to second and third and fourth this...I have a very close relative who was sexually molested back in the Good Ol' Days when sexual molestation didn't happen. Remember then? Well, when he brought it up to his mother, she called him a liar because she didn't want, God forbid, to handle damage control on the relative's bruised ego, or, God forbid, offend someone.

He went on to abuse several other family members and attempted to abuse his own son. Only when his son was an adolescent and threatened to kill his father with his bare hands did the abuse stop.

The damage went on.

Bruise Grandpa's ego or forever break a child's?

Easy choice.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

rachelernst.com thank you for your reply. There is much to think about and I will continue to refer to your advice again.


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

PrennaMama the multicultural difference does not come from fil and his wife (not my dh's birthmother).


----------



## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Meg Murry, I'm so sad to here abuse happened close to you. That would be my worst nightmare.

It is an easy choice. There was never an adult in my entire family who touched children's bottoms. Ever. I remember a few times in school, getting pinched on the butt by boys and such. It NEVER felt ok. I can't imagine it feeling ok for an adult to do this. I have an urge to tell fil my feelings about that type of play, but I know relationships would NEVER be the same. If I can get enough effectiveness by using "the kids don't like that type of play" then I will. Just a little concerned it might be blown off a few years down the road. Fil did grab the butts of his kids til they were 19 years old. I just don't understand that. I just don't get it.....why?


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Misplaced affection...? Modeled behavior...? Who knows. For some reason he thinks it's natural and ok; and needs to be educated.

Brass tacks: what's right for some is not right for others. Some families would tolerate and even encourage this. But if your boyss don't dig it, and it freaks them (and you) out, then that OUGHT to be enough of a reason to cease.


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Your DH is being defensive because he was molested by his father and can't accept this to be true without radically revising his understanding of his own identity and his father's.

Um wow you have absolutely nothing to base that on.







: Several people in this thread have admitted that squeeze or pat tushies. I am one of them. Kids have cute butts. My kids also pat my butt. No one is hurt or feeling molested by this. If years later I patted my granddaughter's but and it bothered my theoretical SIL and my DD said "oh mom always did that it's not big deal" it would not mean she was in denial about my molestation of her. I absolutely agree this situation should be dealt with because the children are uncomfortable about this type of contact and they need to know that mom and dad will keep them from contact that they don't want but there is no way for us to know at this point that the GF is a predator or that OR_Mom's Dh was molested and is in denial.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

http://www.answers.com/molestation&r=67

Quote:

1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy.
2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity.
I'd say that grabbing someone's butt after you have been repeatedly told that they do not like it and do not want you to do that is molestation. That's what this grandfather is doing. It's not the same as affectionate patting or the other things people here keep conflating it with. Unwanted touching of a part of the body culturally deemed to be private and sexualized--molestation.


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Was that in response to me because I was addressing whether or not this DH has been molested and is just in denial. He clearly did not mind (according to what he has said) and so from what we know *he* was not molested. I know the dictionary definition of molestation and lots of things fall under it but not all of them are molestation with the capital M ie DD#1 molests DD#2 all the time fortunately she does not Molest DD#2.


----------



## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi* 
Um wow you have absolutely nothing to base that on.







:.


With all due respect, please allow me to refer you to the OP, specifically the following passages:

Quote:


My husband's father, while playing and different random times, was *grabbing my boys' bottoms (grabs with both hands and squeezes several times*). He does this in a playful way, but I find it EXTREMELY inappropriate. I talked to my husband about this and he said it's harmless behavior and that *his father did that to all the kids in their family growing up.* _*He did say he would talk to him about it, though. He never did.*_ Now, I'm home from the visit and just sick to my stomach thinking about it.

To deny that one has been molested and to be unwilling to admit it to oneself is a fairly common reaction, particularly if the molestation has been male-male, as many posters here are painfully aware. I regret you disagree with my conclusion.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Your conclusion doesn't really follow. His reticence could be attributable to being intimidated by his father, or to a general feeling that his father doesn't give a hoot what he thinks, not necessarily molestation. And if his father has a history of not respecting his personal boundaries, it stands to reason that he doesn't expect him to respect the boundaries of his own children.


----------

