# Sposies, Sposies EVERYWHERE at a LLL meeting!?!?!?!?!?!?



## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

Okay, I went to a LLL meeting a couple of towns over this morning. I was referred to this leader, because I am looking to possible become a leader myself.

Anywho, I get there w/ Dylan in a Luxe Baby WIO in shades of blue and a little T-shirt. I just sat in awe and looked at all the bebes w/ covered and sposied bums!!!!!









I mean these women were sitting around talking negatively about mamas that feed thier babies jarred food. They were talking about all of the CRAP in the jarred foods, including the organic ones. They continued to talk about thier organic diets and how good it was for the bebe.









All the while I am sitting there thinking -







you have crystals in your dipes that are made of chemicals so they can swell up when they get wet and that TOUCHES your bebes skin!!!!!!! Not to mention that the bebes bum bum is all hot, muggy and sweaty. (I have ice on my tongue right now trying to reduce the swelling from me biting it so hard!!!! )









Here is another shocker - I sling carry Dylan everywhere no matter what. I fully expected to walk into the LLL meeting seeing all kinds of slings. I saw one Maya and the lady's 6 year old daughter was wearing it!!!!!!

So, back OT, I made a







REALLY BIG DEAL







of getting in the middle of the circle to change Dylan. I painstakingly took out my spray bottle w/ wipes soulution, my cloth wipe and my dipe and in no time flat had Dylan in a striped RB WIO!!!









I mean there was one lady that was so CRUNCHY that she bragged about not having a phone, TV, a computer or getting the paper. BUT she runs down to the store to shove sposies on her bebes bum!!

By the way, we were there for just over 2 hours and NOT ONE OTHER MAMA changed thier bebe's dipe!







The crystals were justa swellin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a topper to the story, this afternoon I went to my regular BF support group (not LLL) and there were 3 mamas w/ slings and 2 mamas that asked me what those neat pants were that Dylan had on. :LOL I had changed him into a giraffe VK fitted.

MAMAS, I do







love







you guys and all, but I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want a mama here in the physical/real life to share







: ing w/ too!!!!!!!







If I can't find 'em at a LLL meeting, where will I find 'em?!?!?!?!?









...


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

oy.... that sucks!!







Poor kiddos!

My LLL meeings were full of baby wearing mamas and about half of them were CD'ing mamas. It was a little too far of a drive when H was little so we didn't go often


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## Frogmorest (Jan 31, 2004)

Our LLL is about half babywearing ladies... but the only other one in cloth is my irl friend







Pretty sad I say if you can't even find them there!!!!

I feel for you!!!!

But I bet your little one was soooooo cute









Tammy


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

At my LLL, everyone slings, nurses toddlers (well, those that have toddlers), some homebirth, most go to natural food stores...but Bran is the only CD'ed baby in the group...


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

You know it's funny, my LLL group was the only place i had ever seen cloth on babies IRL. They didn't really advertise or anything, but they were the ones i went to for info when i first started. I'm sure some of the API mamas did it, too. Quite a few, really. I guess i'm lucky, but i would have been very frustrated, if i was in your position. I wouldn't have bitten my tongue, either







. I would have outed their hypocrisy immediately.l


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

That is awful!


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## pritchettzoo (Jan 19, 2004)

I've only attended one LLL meeting, and I don't believe anyone CDed there either. I changed Gracie and was stared at like we were doing something weird. The leader was about to tell me where the trash can was and then said, "Oh." (You know, the tight "Oh" that means "How very odd.")









I'd have drooled over your WIO! Have you checked the tribal area? I've met one MDC mama IRL, and there are several in my area who CD. And I know some more from another board.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

... breastfeeding does not equal all-natural mama, or even mostly-natural mama...

IMO these two things do not go hand in hand. all of the bf'ing mamas i know IRL use sposies; the one i knew who used cloth diapers religiously ff'ed.


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry to hear that no one in your group cd their child. In my bf group ( we don't have a leader right now) We are 2 that cd and then there is one who come once in a while.

It's true that bf doesn't not mean all-natural mamas and cd, etc..


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

... breastfeeding does not equal all-natural mama, or even mostly-natural mama...
True... but if they were sitting there dissing people who use baby food (even the organic) you would think they would be more cautious about what they put on their babies bum, lol. I think thats the part that doesnt add up


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## stanleymama (Dec 27, 2003)

WOW!! I have never been to a LLL meeting, but a friend of mine was a LLL member when she was younger. She is so proud of me for using cloth and remembers how grossed out her fellow LLL members were when disposables came out. So sad you saw the reverse


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## LaffNowCryLater (May 2, 2003)

:
I haven't gone to a LLL meeting yet but plan on it this month. I HOPE I see cloth.
I went to a meeting where I would have expected all babes to be in cloth and only 1 did (out of 5-6).


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

but if they were sitting there dissing people who use baby food (even the organic) you would think they would be more cautious about what they put on their babies bum
... not a lot of people know what's wrong w/ sposies... yk? really. there is a lot of ignorance out there. (like my dad, who insists that cloth is _worse_ for the environment than disposables...)


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## Double A (Jan 28, 2004)

Yeah, I was just going to say......
They just dont know. I didnt know at first, there was anything wrong with sposies. and of course they dont know to change their baby's diaper within 2 hours, using a sposie. I dont change a cloth diaper every two hours.
I would think it would be a big help for you to just casually mention that disposables are ladden with chemicals that are not great for anyone. They really are just uninformed. Make friends with someone, and mention it to them, then find another person, and so on, but dont beat them up because of their not knowing.

I think the resurge in Breastfeeding, will eventually fuel the slow resurge of cloth diapering. We'll be the veterans of diapering in our generation, when most people are using cloth again, we can say we've been there and done that. lol


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

As a cloth dipering mama, I have never experienced such snobbery amongst cloth diapering mothers. Why do we cloth diaper in the first place? There are lots of reasons that people choose to parent in the ways they do.I for one diaper my child in this way for the environmental/comfort reasons. I would prefer that people did not fill our landfills with lots of crap. I would also love for there to be world peace, but I don't spend my energy critisizing others who choose different lifestyles. What is a LLL meeting for anyways? Be thankful that you are so enlightend... just look at what the rest of us poor saps are up against! I know I will get burned for this post but when did this choice become such a definining point for you; and why the obsession? (ignore me! )


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## CurlyMint (Apr 24, 2003)

LaffNowCryLater - Monica uses cloth too, so there are 2 moms at that group







Our VAB LLL mornings is inactive right now







. I have been to a few LLL mornings and no cloth in sight.

Yeah, I am constanly surprised that more people at LLL here does not use cloth. My first LLL meeting was in another state and a few moms there used cloth. Luke's Drawers in fact, it was cool.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I am a newcomer to cloth, but I am very AP. We do family bed, gentle discipline, and I am tandem nursing my girls. But Gracie still wears disposables (her choice) and we just started using cloth for Rosie. Rosie is wearing disposables at night, for swimming, and for some outings because I haven't figured those angles out yet.

I know that lots of touch and carrying babies is very important, and so is breastfeeding. I apologize in advance for this opinion, but I don't think that using cloth diapers is that important in terms of attachment parenting. It has to do with natural family living, which is a great ideal for people who want to pursue it. But to me, natural family living is different from AP, even though a lot of the same families practice both AP and NFL.

I think those other people at the LLL meetings will be inspired by your example. I know I have been inspired to try cloth again (after my first miserable failure with Gracie) because so many people around me use cloth. These women didn't ever preach, but they were enthusiastic and supportive and answered my questions. I think that your presence will have the same effect on them over time.


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## Darrel (Jul 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Village Mama*
As a cloth dipering mama, I have never experienced such snobbery amongst cloth diapering mothers. Why do we cloth diaper in the first place? There are lots of reasons that people choose to parent in the ways they do.I for one diaper my child in this way for the environmental/comfort reasons. I would prefer that people did not fill our landfills with lots of crap. I would also love for there to be world peace, but I don't spend my energy critisizing others who choose different lifestyles. What is a LLL meeting for anyways? Be thankful that you are so enlightend... just look at what the rest of us poor saps are up against! I know I will get burned for this post but when did this choice become such a definining point for you; and why the obsession? (ignore me! )

You took the words right out of my mouth . Thanks . I just don't get it . I see such snobbish and childish remarks by people here and in the homeschool community . EVERYONE raises their kids different . Everyone doesn't raise kids the way you or I do . People are so quick to want to control or judge others because someone else's standards don't match up the same . Get a grip . If everyone would worry about their own house the world would be a better place .


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Darrel*
You took the words right out of my mouth . Thanks . I just don't get it . I see such snobbish and childish remarks by people here and in the homeschool community .

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Darrel*
EVERYONE raises their kids different . Everyone doesn't raise kids the way you or I do . People are so quick to want to control or judge others because someone else's standards don't match up the same . Get a grip . If everyone would worry about their own house the world would be a better place .









I didn't see any "control" in the OP. More like frustration, seeing that all or most the people in the group were described to be very NP, I too would find it odd that they wouldn't choose to cloth diaper their babies. I see nothing wrong with the OP'r venting or sharing her feelings on the issue, this is a CD board afterall








And yes, I still feel bad those poor kiddos were in sposies for 2+ hours, cause I know it is not a good thing. Been there, done that. Live and learn.


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

I saw my first cloth dipes ever at a LLL meeting...and that was back when I was using sposies! I was actually a bit shocked myself!


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

I agree with klothos and Double A. They just might not know what's in a sposie.

A few women in my BF support group (not LLL) CD. I've made some positive comments on their cute covers (not sure what kind they were). We had a discussion about diapering and it really got me interested in CDing. I've only been CDing for 6 months. I'll never go back to sposies, that's for sure!


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## didelphus (May 25, 2003)

You know, I think all our leaders CD but I don't think I've ever seen one of the visiting moms CD. At least it's nice that the leaders do! And there are always lots of slings.


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## Yarnia (Aug 29, 2003)

Well I've always been very pro bf and attended LLL meetings with my dd in a sposie. It never occurred to me to cd until I switched and I can't get over how easy it was and is!
I had never seen a "modern" cloth diaper or cover. I know now that there was at least one cd there (cause she sells them!) but she didn't advertise it so of course I didn't notice at the time.
There were usually plenty of slings tho - but still some little ones in carriers the whole meeting. My kiddo wouldn't have stood for that so I guess everyone is different.

I don't think I usually took my sling in as it was a short walk and I'd be sitting rather than slinging. I never got the knack of slinging and bf









You did right to change publicly - tho perhaps next time you could point out cd as the "crunchy" way to diaper even if nobody asks!


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## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Village Mama*
As a cloth dipering mama, I have never experienced such snobbery amongst cloth diapering mothers. Why do we cloth diaper in the first place? There are lots of reasons that people choose to parent in the ways they do.I for one diaper my child in this way for the environmental/comfort reasons. I would prefer that people did not fill our landfills with lots of crap. I would also love for there to be world peace, but I don't spend my energy critisizing others who choose different lifestyles. What is a LLL meeting for anyways? Be thankful that you are so enlightend... just look at what the rest of us poor saps are up against! I know I will get burned for this post but when did this choice become such a definining point for you; and why the obsession? (ignore me! )


First understand, I went there not just for BF info but to compare wool and fitteds w/ all the crunchy mamas! Can you imagine my dissapointment!!!!!









I blieve I did not make myself clear in my OP so I will here -








*I AM NOT obsessed w/ personal choice but AM obssessed w/ UNEDUCATED SNOBBERY.*









No one told me or suggest to me that we CD. In my continuing quest to make sure that I am making the RIGHT choices for my son, I came across many topics on CDing. I reasearched and found that this was the right choice for us and the environment. So, here we are in the diapering forum (and frequently the TP or some WHAM site







. It was and is my continuing quest that has helped me to better Dylan's life/lifestyle.

Here is the difference between myself and those moms -







_I DON'T boast my feigned superiority in front of others to make them feel small or to make myself feel good._









Bottom line this was not what I thought a LLL meeting should be to me it was a gathering of the local CDless clique.

Total and complete honesty here - I don't boast my superiority but I do at times feel both superior and different because of the CHOICES I have made for Dylan. But, I am comfortable with these feelings. (*Hey I AM being honest.*







) I am ver concious of not making others feel inferior because of my or thier choices.

It is not my place to judge thier uninformed/informed choices, but I don't have to subject my son or myself to thier actions.

Another quick visual for ya - _







Have you ever been to a sporting event where the fans in the stands have done the wave (standing up and throwing thier hands in the air in succession)? Well imagine a wave of noses when we began changing our cloth diaper or WIO. They all around the room began to go up in the air, then would ever so briefly come down out of couriosity, only to shoo right back up again before any of thier peers or myself could notice.







_ It was quite entertianing, :LOL really!









These ladies were just RUDE







: . They made plans for all of them to go to lunch pointedly excluding Dylan and myself. Seemingly because we were different; because we oenly and proudly







: . The leader did ask us to join them but we declined. I could tell she was bothered by this because I spoke with her late last night and she said she felt bad that we didn't join them for lunch. I told her not to think twice about! It was our "date" lunch day anyway.









Anywho, to prove to you that I am not anti "sposie-mommies" - there was another visiting mom at the LLL group that needed help and I invited her to my afternoon group in the next town and she came and was quite thankful. She had two children in sposies.















*Again, I AM NOT choice obsessive! What I AM is uneducated snobbery obsessive - this effects others







.* _A mama less sure of herself or her choice, be it CDing, BFing, whatever might have second guessed herself when these ladies so quickly and rudely shunned her *different* choice._

_*CDing like many other avenues we choose is decided through educating ourselves continuoiusly and not being closed minded when something new rears it's head.*_
















I have now stepped down off the box, you may contiue with your post browsing and please overlook me!!!!









...


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## halah (Apr 28, 2002)

This is going somewhere interesting and not just about diapers.

I am starting to feel like it is more difficult being friends with "ap" or "natural" or "crunchy" moms, or whatever they are wanting to call themselves, that I supposedly have more affinity with. It seems like when they get together, everyone is checking everyone else out with the mental checklist---slings, check! BF'ing, check! CD's, check! homemade no-sugar-added baby food--check! etc., etc., It is getting ridiculous!

Consequently, everybody is busy judging others because they are feeling judged, or they're feeling judged because they know they internally judge others---which is it?

For this OP'er, I think you felt a little shut out of this clique (I was saddened when I realized cliques exist outside school!) and were feeling like you were being given the once over, and hearing them b***ch about baby food in jars, yes you're right, it is idiotic, but not just because they were being hypocritical with their plastic diapers. It's just idiotic to pick apart moms' decisions, period, and base one's allegances on that.

But returning the favor by dissing them because they had no slings (it's HOT where I am personally, I wouldn't want a sling hanging round my neck right now) and no CD's is not going to help situations. Though it might make you feel better for a while (I can dig that, done it too).

To clarify, I'm not down on you WhimsyTime, I'm just commenting on the rather sad state of "support" among mothers these days.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

Great to inspire some honesty here!Now that I have slept on my irritation( nothing personal.... It has been building for a long time) I will tell you a bit about my cloth diapering experience. We are a fairly low income family, and couldnt afford to buy new fancy diapers and covers. I scavenged as many as I could from the local thrift stores(including the dreaded plastic pants!) I didnt have a washing machine in the house that we were renting at the time, therefore I had to wash all of the poopy diapers by hand in the sink and hang them around the house to dry. At the time I didnt even know anyone else who CD.I had one friend who went diaper free, whom vocally trashed all of the other moms around for thier choices. Let me tell you that after 30 little pees a day and almost as many outfits, You wouldnt have blamed me for going to disposibles. The only thing that kept me trying was sheer determination.Just to put it in perspective... there are many situations like this, and others that drive peoples choices. Now when I frequent the thrift stors, I pick up any slings or cloth diapers and offer them to new moms in the niebourhood that I know(with the offer of a lesson over tea!) Just remember that not everyone has the resources monetary or support wise to make the choices that they themselves may want to make.


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## GeoBaby (Jul 28, 2004)

ahhh, don't be too hard on them. Yes, they were being a bit hypocritical with their talk vrs. their actions, but oh well.

I'm new to this CDing thing, and I love it, but honestly, the thought just didn't occur to me to use CD, even though we had a natural birth, and were already practicing some of the AP protocols. I know, it doesn't make sense NOW, since it really is all a package deal, but some people just choose to do what they can.

We all pick our ways of helping the world, and some of us just don't do everything.

OH, and yes, a lot babies ARE sensitive to sposies, but I must say that the chemicals can't be all that bad because my dogs have eaten them with no ill effects... I know... gross. One more reason I've gone to CD.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

I just wanted to quickly chime in that I understood the OP the way it was intended: that it's quite a lot of hypocricy to put a chemically laden diaper against your child's genitals and then trash-talk jarred baby foods because of the chemicals in them. Of course they may not know that there are chemicals in the disposable diapers...but.... I think it would be hard 'not to know' especially when you find the gel beads ON your baby's bottom. And a group so critical of what's inside those little jarred babyfoods should be wondering what's inside those strange feeling chemical underwear they put on their child.

I agree though, that it's good not to use energy trashing other mama's choices and instead simply offer information (or even supplies! that is such a coool idea Village Mama) to mamas who you see missing out on a better way.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Wow! I thought the OP was simply sharing frustration for not finding CD mamas in a place you might expect to. She didnt sound like she was judging, just venting.

*VillageMama*
LLL is La Leche League

*Mom2Kyla and ChrsitinaB*
ITA w/ your posts!









I have been to tons of AP events/playgroups where mamas are crunchier than me and less crunchy than me - I have NEVER felt jugded, it was always an open exhange of info, ideas, books, etc...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i get the vent, when i was all into the hyena thing i was disappointed when i had no one to share my treasures with, but seriously, expecting all women in LLL to share the same hobby is unrealistic. (and supposing them all to be uneducated simpletons in need of enlightenment is a tad presumptious.)

i have had the whole gamut, from wool to fbs to fmbg to liz's to keester kover aios to the finest of chinese pfs with an assortment of wahm covers, and frankly, after two babies, they leak. (speaking of chemicals, the things i have sprayed on them in a futile attempt to rewaterproof them make the corn-derived polysorbate crystals look like granola nuggets.) with my last baby months away from being potty-trained, i don't have the $ or inclination to buy a whole 'nother stash.

so, when we go out for an extended period, rather than change outfits repeatedly while running around after two wild toddlers, i put on one of the maybe three disposable diapers i will use that week. if it's the LLL meeting, you would suppose me to be one of the unwashed herd of unthinking sposie users. but by the time you have a couple toddlers, impressing the other mommies with your fashionable cds has become somewhat less of a priority.

i am sorry you felt snubbed, but i would bet it wasn't 'cause you cd. that's getting paranoid







(i'm sure it has more to do with being new to the crowd.)

ps older babies can quite easily go two hours without peeing. hard to believe, but it's true. :b and of course, not all paper dipes are gel-filled; i'm sure some of the crunchier moms pay a premium for 'biodegradable' no-gel etc sposies (yes, i know, they are still vile and environmentally evil; but that may jibe more with the jarred baby food snobbism.)

pps the only ones that have held up to all the washings w/out leakage are the uncoveted flannel lousy-absorbing hyena-maligned kooshies aios! (and yes, i have lanolin; i just don't put wool on babies in 98' humidity.)

just another pov, i really have been there & it is fun to show the cute ones off!
suse


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## Miny20 (Jun 24, 2004)

When I first started using cloth a few months ago, I went to a LLL meeting and saw a mother there bust out her spray bottle (we use sposie wipes, but it's out of consideration for the other people who use the washers in our building), a diaper, and a wetbag.

I made a beeline for her! I was new to cloth and it all of a sudden felt 'real' to me when I saw someone else take out a fuzzi bunz. Woo hoo.

Of course Arden was throwing a fit, it was nap time and we HAD HAD HAD to leave. But, it was so great to connect with her for a couple of minutes.










I feel your pain. Although, the LLL meeting I went to last month was entitled--"Wearing your baby: The art of slinging" There was HUGE show. It was so great!


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## gothmommy (Jul 2, 2004)

Yeah, I noticed the same thing last night. Kind of disappointing, IMHO. One mama went to change her wee one's diaper and I asked if she was planning on using cloth. SHe mentioned that she would like to, but just hasn't started in. So I offered to make her a few dipes. Little cute girly print fleece AIOs. YAY! I so cannot wait to give them to her!!


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## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes I was frustrated at the double talk or hipocracy. But mainly I was venting here too out of CD disapointment. Again, my expectations had been set by others as to what to expect at the LLL meetings. I was actually afraid of not fitting in because we were not crunchy enough!







:

None of our play pal or group mamas practice co-sleeping, slinging, making thier own baby food, or CDing. And those that BF are pretty much weaning over the next month.

So, we would have liked to find mamas & bebes that we could share sling stories (I have heard many times in the MDC forums that LLL is a great place to meet slining mamas) and CD excitement.

I know the mamas we hang out with always get a kick out of the new or different dipe/cover Dylan is wearing each time we meet or get together. I too would like to look forward seeing another CDd bum bum or two or three or four or five







.

_When we get together, in addition to talking about how fast they are growing into thier carseats and what is thier favorite toy this week - I'd like to talk about the joys and benefits of extended BF, the great new postion we tried w/ the sling last week, how wonderful it was for Dylan to wake me up this morning with his sweet little hand on my cheek and all of the fabulous WHAMS out there, what dipes/covers are working best for us this week, what our current nighttime solution is and what WHAM dipes we have our eye on._

I realize I was probably looking to the wrong group to fulfill these needs. But AP groups are equally as hard to find here. I have posted around the boards here and have heard nothing back. I know there was one in the area last year and I PMd the mom with the thread and a couple of the moms that posted there, again nothing.

So, it is up to you mamas to keep on posting those FABULOUS CD pics, share your CDING stories and frustrations, talki about what dipe you wanna try next and OCASSIONALLY attend a stocking w/ me in your best







suit!









..


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## GeoBaby (Jul 28, 2004)

That was my deal... I TRULY did not know there were ANY alternatives out there to swirling and pins and LOTS of laundry. When an acquaintence from the Bradley Birth circle (not even from my class) invited me to a MOE party, it opened up an entirely new world for me! Now, I visit places like MDC and the Diaper Pin and am just FLOORED by the CD choices out there! It's almost like it is an underground society! CDing, ironically, is still in the minority these days. Sposies are normal, and seem to have a false monopoly on new mothers. I mean, really, when was the last time you saw a commercial for Bumpkins?

I just think it was great that you DID openly change a diaper in front of the other moms. You know, if you had attended lunch, who's to say that they might have had questions for you? It only takes one mom to ask the question, and the rest will usually follow.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

Radish, thanks for clarifying but I did know what LLL stood for! I was just meaning to say that LLL is for breastfeeding support for all types of mothers. Personally I have found them to be much more straight edge than I thought they would be. But who needs more support than the women that are more straight edge themselves, and where breastfeeding is not the norm amongst thier peers.I just think that this is a silly issue to divide people! By "enlightened" I ment that not everyone is lucky enough to come across information on more natural parenting issues. It is not exactly available in the mainstream media. We are lucky to have discovered this information or having been led to a place where we can educate ourselves. Anything in the media regarding natural parenting styles is put forth as more of a novelty. The only way we can help people learn is to gently guide them... not to assume that they already have the information. It's not always easy for people to break free from the norm.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

Breastfeeding and chemicals in jarred food have something in common. They are nourishment being ingested into the child.

Diapers are topical. They may or may not irritate the baby's skin. But they are not ingested.

LLL is there for nutritional support. For how the food goes into the baby, not what type of diaper the leftovers come out into.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

You know, I'd tend to be less critical of what people put on their baby's bum, and more impressed by the fact that they are putting breastmilk in their baby's tum. Celebrate the fact they are breastfeeding, don't deride them for not following your ideals in natural family living. Please.

I wonder how judged I was when I used to take dd#1 to LLL meetings in her disposable diapers? I never realised that I didnt fit in because I was not pure enough in those days.









Breastfeeding does not equate natural living in every way. Many mamas cannot use cloth for whatever reason, (finance to start up, support from partner, lack of washing facilities....) or do not know about it. I didnt know until I'd been using disposables for almost 18 months. I'd never seen a decent modern cloth diaper - and the few I saw at my first LLL meetings, to be honest, were enough to put me off for another year! Maybe if some of you hyenas had been around, I'd have been inspired, but the couple of saggy, greying cds I saw at LLL meetings in the early days did not inspire me one bit. (just to qualify, I wouldn't see it that way now, I'd just see it as someone cding on a budget, but I was not inspired by the sight back then).

I"m glad that a few other people found the tone here disturbing. I've tried in the past to stick up for those 'terrible' sposie users in threads here, but am usually a lone voice. Why the snobbery? I love cds, but I dont expect others to agree with me!

Aren't there far worse things you could do to your kid than use disposable diapers? Personally, I would rank feeding formula unnecessarily as a bigger deal than using disposables. And how wonderful that so many women were there at LLL finding support for breastfeeding!


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Geez can everyone please stop riding this Mama and her post about their OWN issues.

She was venting - most of us know BF does not equal NFL or CDing. She was hoping to meet a CD mama there and didnt.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
You know, I'd tend to be less critical of what people put on their baby's bum, and more impressed by the fact that they are putting breastmilk in their baby's tum. Celebrate the fact they are breastfeeding, don't deride them for not following your ideals in natural family living. Please.


Yeah, that. You went to that meeting with completely unrealistic expectations and NOT for what the meetings are for, which is breastfeeding support. Did it every occur to you that these women might have felt insecure (as so many people think that cd'ing is this big hairy deal and takes such a sacrifice) that you were cd'ing and nervous that you might not like THEM? And if your attitude is that you are better than them because you cd (and frankly i think that you DO feel that way even if you deny it here), then no wonder they didn't invite you into their circle. Also, it takes time to get to know someone in the LLL arena.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

This is a natural family living board and disposables are not natural! If a mom wants to come here and point out how sad she was that there werent more cloth diaper users at a LLL or otherwhere, thats what this forum is here for!!! No one was being a snob... in fact I thought she was doing quite the opposite by publically changing her ds so that others would maybe be interested in a non imposing way.

This board should be the one place where people feel comfortable saying they dont like sposies and when people use them its dissapointing without being called judgemental and snobbish.







You dont HAVE to use cloth to fit in on MDC ... but you cant blame people here for commenting that they are better than sposies.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

And...not saying the LLL mamas are simpletons BUT most of the mamas at my LLL ar smart, savvy, informed women - they read about AP/NFL/etc and a lot have internet access, I am sure some of them have come across cloth in some way or other. I know I did.

My point is I agree with the OP and others that it is ironic or suprising that more dont CD. That's all/ No judging or saying I am a better mom, just MHO.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm just in complete and total shock that someone went to a LLL meeting looking to compare wool fitteds and whatever else nonsense.

Non-cd clique? Are you for real?

I feel like I'm reading something on the Onion.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Tiffany -









Mothra -


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

To be completely honest, it sounds like you were excluded because you were being rude. Did you really lay your child down in the middle of a circle and change their diaper? That is just rude. I don't care how cute the diaper is, what goes it in it not.

And yes, I use cloth diapers because I am fortunate enough to have access to the Internet to get the information I need, because I am privileged enough to have lump sums of money to purchase the diapers all at once, and because I have laudry facilities in my home. It is PRIVILEGE to be able to use cloth diapers and all of this talk is classist, classist, elitist, classist, and just disgusting.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Quote:

And if your attitude is that you are better than them because you cd (and frankly i think that you DO feel that way even if you deny it here), then no wonder they didn't invite you into their circle. Also, it takes time to get to know someone in the LLL arena.
FFS! She went looking to find a CD-FRIEND not to shame sposie moms!!!

I am ALWAYS on the look out for CD mamas and when I see one I start talkin dipes right away. Just like when I see a BF or EBF Mama I do the same. Doesnt mean I shame FF Mamas does it?? Common bond, that's all.

Why is that so hard for so many people to understand or believe???


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

forget it, its pointless radish... its just another chance for people to pick on the cloth diaper forum.







And MDC wonders why half the posters of this forum dont like to post elsewhere.

FYI-

Quote:

Classist - Bias based on social or economic class.
Cloth diapering has nothing to do with your social or economic class. You can do it if you are poor (prefolds and cheap covers) or you can do it if your rich. There is no bias there.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"This is a natural family living board and disposables are not natural!"

Absolutely.

And LLL meetings are for support for breastfeeding, not for NFL.

I don't think anyone is picking on the diaper forum. I post all over the boards here, including diapering. But the title and tone of this thread does come across as being superior and judgemental imo. Rather like the comments about disposable users not knowing how often to change their babies' nappies.

The reality is that it is difficult to get information about cloth diapering, or even to know it is an issue. I consider myslef to be very well informed about most parenting issues, but came across cd information far later than I came across information about breastfeeding. And in the early days of motherhood, the research that was needed was too overwhelming for me to tackle. I chose to tackle things that seemed more serious to me first - like breastfeeding, feeding solids, vaccinations, co-sleeping..........

For those of you who 'got it' all at once, that's great. But lighten up on those who don't get every aspect right in your eyes, for goodness sake.

And this is coming from someone who loves cloth diapers! I just don't expect everyone else to agree with me or to have discovered what I discovered. And I consider breastfeeding a far more important contribution to a child's welfare than cloth diapers.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
Cloth diapering has nothing to do with your social or economic class. You can do it if you are poor (prefolds and cheap covers) or you can do it if your rich. There is no bias there.









Actually, many poor mamas sincerely *don't* have enough money to buy prefolds or covers. In addition, those same mamas may not have access to a "free" washing machine either, and would have to use a laundromat type place which can be very expensive.

Cloth diapering is not a free or cheap solution to diapering.

FWIW, I'm not bashing the diapering forum, just pointing out that the there are elements of those -isms in cloth diapering.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"And MDC wonders why half the posters of this forum dont like to post elsewhere."

Ironically, I understood it that a lot of posters in diapering don't like to post elsewhere because they do not practice many other aspects of AP and NFL, they are just diapering enthusiasts.

I think you'd find that most posters who are not into diapering have the diapering posts screened out of their 'New Posts' so wouldnt have even seen this thread. Personally, I am responding as a cloth diaper user and enthusiast, not as someone coming onto your forum and attacking you. I"m sure others are too.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Actually, many poor mamas sincerely *don't* have enough money to buy prefolds or covers. In addition, those same mamas may not have access to a "free" washing machine either, and would have to use a laundromat type place which can be very expensive.
yes, that.

i live in an apartment complex where 1 load of laundry costs $1.25 to wash and $1 to dry. at best, i can wash 10 diapers and 3-4 covers per load.

since my daughter was born, we've done 1 load of towels (from the birth) and the rest has been diaper laundry, and we're already halfway through our laundry budget for the month. i'm quailing because my SO still doesn't have a job and i have all of $180 for _everything_, not just until the end of the month but until whenever he finds a job.

i might have to stop cd'ing for a little while just so we can have clean clothes, or start handwashing everything. (i'm not even going to address the issue of bills...)

so please, before you say cd'ing is always cheaper..... it's not.

and before you judge a mama ~ for _anything_ ~ maybe you should try to look at life from her perspective...


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## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

*First I want to address this comment* -

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Village Mama*
Great to inspire some honesty here!

I don't want you to mistake that you inspired my honesty. I am a very honest and blunt person - to some, these are two of my more admirable traits.









*Next I want to address all of the mamas that have a problem with this thread* - If you started reading it and you had a problem with it, you didn't have to continue reading it or even post. But you chose to, just as I chose to post the thread and title it as I did.

The irony I see here is that you don't want me to deny anyone/those women thier choice (and I didn't, nor would I); yet, you deny me my opinion. In addition you pretend to know what intentions (mine or thiers) were at a meeting that you did not even attend. Also you have judged me in saying that despite my admitions, honesty and explanations that I am a CDing SNOB. Well







on you!!!! _I am happy, proud of, confident with and open about the choices I have made._ _If this makes me a CDing SNOB then *I proudly wear label you have given me!!!!!!*_ :yawning:

*As for the mamas that understand why I posted this thread and/or where I am coming from -*







*THANK YOU MAMAS!*







*I needed to unload and voice my curiosity and awe and you let me.







THANK YOU MAMAS!!!!!*







You understand my need to physically share fitteds and wool with others!







*THANK YOU MAMAS!!!!!*







Quite simply - YOU GET IT!







*THANK YOU MAMAS!!!!*









...


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## AugustLia23 (Mar 18, 2004)

Umm, I'm coming in pretty late here, but I want to say I totally understand where your coming from WhimsyTyme. I mean, I don't live in a very crunchy area, so I don't really go out expecting ANYONE around me to CD, even at an LLL meeting. I sincerely wish that there were families around me that EBF, CD(obsessivly like I do), and other ways of more NFL.

I don't look down on families that use paper diapers. Most don't know there's any other option. I try to tell people about what CDing really is, but they aren't even interested. It would be so wonderful if I could share my LOVE of fitteds and wool with people who understood that it's breathable, cool on their bum, and one of the best materials for a diaper cover around. That's why I'm on this board. It's as close as I can get.


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## pritchettzoo (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't see how it is difficult or elitist to use cloth diapers. If you are concerned about chemicals and your baby, as these moms apparently were, how hard is it to go to the library (free computer access) and google for information? Prairie people didn't have internet access nor paypal accounts, and they managed to figure out how to wrap some cloth around their babies' tushies. It doesn't take specialized knowledge to know that there is SOMETHING in the disposable diapers that absorbs the pee and leaves weird little gel balls everywhere. What would it be if not a chemical?

Wal-Mart carries cloth diapers! Right near the disposable diapers! As does BRU and other stores easily accessible to the masses.

It is up to me as a mother to check out anything that goes on or in my child's body to the best of my ability. An LLL meeting would seem like a likely place to find cloth diapering friends. I was disappointed I didn't find any. Do I think that my choice in cloth diapers is superior to the choice of disposable diapers? YES. Am I superior to all other mothers who choose differently? NO. I'm sure I'll screw up my kid some other way.


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

I am also late but also wanted to say, I agree with the OP. I dont feel like arguing this afternoon, so maybe tomorrow. Thats all. Thanks!


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

WhimsyTyme, I understand, sympathize and agree with you. Had a long post typed out, but it sounded a tad bit confrontational and that's not what I'm going for.







Hope the next meeting is better for ya!


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsayloo2020*
I am also late but also wanted to say, I agree with the OP. I dont feel like arguing this afternoon, so maybe tomorrow. Thats all. Thanks!









ROFL Linds!!! :LOL

Why is that whenever there is a slightly "hot" topic, people rush in to attack the regulars of the diapering board?? And why are we thought of as less NFL/AP than the rest of MDC?
















WhimsyTyme!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Why is that whenever there is a slightly "hot" topic, people rush in to attack the regulars of the diapering board??"

I, for one, said in my post that I am a cd user and fairly regular poster on the diapering forum, along with a lot of other forums on mdc. I certainly wasn't rushing in to attack anyone, but was giving an alternative point of view.

"And why are we thought of as less NFL/AP than the rest of MDC? "

Who said that and where? Just because some people thought the OP harsh, doesn't mean that they were saying that diapering regulars were less anything than anyone else.

I can understand the OP's disappointment. But I cannot understand the attitude of her and some posters here towards those mamas who they view as less enlightened than themselves. There is a tone of superiority, judgement and arrogance running through this thread that I find most uncomfortable.

Several people have pointed out how cds are difficult, or even impossible for some people, or even for themselves. One poster this afternoon pointed out that she cannot afford to do the laundry for her cds. It seems that some people are just choosing to ignore that reality if it is pointed out to them.

Several posters have also pointed out that while cd information is available if you are aware of the issues, the reality is that the issue is not 'out there' in the public eye.

I personally researched natural birth, breastfeeding, extended breastfeeding, tandem nursing, vaccinations, healthy eating, gentle discipline, circumcision, the family bed, blah blah blah. All those issues were 'out there' and far more available and obvious issues to research, imo, than cloth diapers. Cloth diapering came further down on my list of hot topics to research than it did obviously to many of you.

Maybe some of you managed to research every issue and had every NFL issue in your consciousness before you had your first baby. I was not that competent.

So I was one of those terrible disposable users that the OP might have seen at her LLL meeting. I'm glad that nobody at my LLL meetings felt any need to 'boast their superiority' and at least if they felt the way that the OP felt about those at her meeting, they kept quiet.









It saddens me to read posts with this sort of attitude on mdc, on any forum. And it saddens me even more that so many of you see nothing wrong with it.









And as for the OP's notion that if someone doesnt agree with you, they should just ignore the thread - if we all took that attitude nothing would get discussed and all we'd do would have threads where people patted themselves on the back for making good points. This is a discussion board, and people are trying to give different perspectives. Obviously the OP does not want to consider any of these as possibly valid, which is sad imo. If you want to gain converts, there are many better ways than taking this attitude either IRL of on the boards.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Quote:

Several people have pointed out how cds are difficult, or even impossible for some people, or even for themselves. One poster this afternoon pointed out that she cannot afford to do the laundry for her cds. It seems that some people are just choosing to ignore that reality if it is pointed out to them.
No one is ignoring this - I just dont see how it is relevant.

Read the last paragraph in her OP:

Quote:

MAMAS, I do love you guys and all, but I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want a mama here in the physical/real life to share ing w/ too!!!!!!! If I can't find 'em at a LLL meeting, where will I find 'em?!?!?!?!?
She was looking for CD mamas and thought she might find them there. Next thing you know Mamas are giving the third degree on what LLL meetings are for (duh!) and the difference between NFL/AP, making excuses for women (that they dont know) who arent using cloth (??!!) etc etc...


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

Last time I will post on this ... No personal attack was intended here. We all just need to be a little bit more understanding and look outside of ourselves sometimes... Seems like a pretty silly thing to divide people... who knows if one of those disposable totin mamas could have been the most amazing person you have ever met. If you read much of what has been written here, it is coming from a positive place( once I finished calling you snobbish!







) not as an attack on a regular on this board.Tis is the real work we need to do on ourselves in order to have peace...


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## LaffNowCryLater (May 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NorfolkMommy*
LaffNowCryLater - Monica uses cloth too, so there are 2 moms at that group







Our VAB LLL mornings is inactive right now







. I have been to a few LLL mornings and no cloth in sight.

Yeah, I am constanly surprised that more people at LLL here does not use cloth. My first LLL meeting was in another state and a few moms there used cloth. Luke's Drawers in fact, it was cool.

Oh yeah, I remember hearing her mention it now!!








T








I am planning on going to the LLL meeting in Ches., at the General Hospital area. I am gonna call to see if they are actuve. It is the 3rd Sat. of evey month.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

..... She was looking for CD mamas and thought she might find them there. Next thing you know Mamas are giving the third degree on what LLL meetings are for (duh!) ....

... but doesn't it strike you as a bit silly that she went to a la LECHE league meeting looking for CLOTH DIAPERING mamas?

come on now. even you said "duh" about what LLL meetings are for...

from the LLLI website: _Founded in 1956 by seven women who had learned about successful breastfeeding while nursing their own babies, La Leche League is the only organization with the sole purpose of helping breastfeeding mothers._

it has nothing to do with AP, nor NFL ~ it's about _breastfeeding_.

_that_ is what strikes me as so *off* about the OP, and i think that's why so many people are nitpicking on this.

now... i'm leaving the thread, because this is just getting ridiculous.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
... but doesn't it strike you as a bit silly that she went to a la LECHE league meeting looking for CLOTH DIAPERING mamas?

come on now. even you said "duh" about what LLL meetings are for...

from the LLLI website: _Founded in 1956 by seven women who had learned about successful breastfeeding while nursing their own babies, La Leche League is the only organization with the sole purpose of helping breastfeeding mothers._

it has nothing to do with AP, nor NFL ~ it's about _breastfeeding_.

_that_ is what strikes me as so *off* about the OP, and i think that's why so many people are nitpicking on this.

now... i'm leaving the thread, because this is just getting ridiculous.

Ok, I'm going to make some assumptions here....I doubt Whimsytymes *only* reason for going to LLL was to meet ofther cding moms. I imagine she went for bfing support and was hoping there would be other cding mamas there.

When there weren't she was disapointed. *Many* mothers have posted in diapering that LLL is the one place they often find other mothers who cd (Not that they went specifically looking for other cding mothers). She has a right to feel a bit disheartened to not have the same luck.

_Then_ she came to a diapering forum on and NFL board to share her disapointment.

Seems logical enough to me. Unfortunately it turned into this huge debate about whether she is a diaper snob or not









I guess I just don't understand.


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lindsaylou*
Seems logical enough to me. Unfortunately it turned into this huge debate about whether she is a diaper snob or not









I guess I just don't understand.

From one Lindsay to another:


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsayloo2020*
From one Lindsay to another:


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lindsaylou*









Gotta feel the LindsayLoo(Lou) love:







You feelin it?


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

When I attended my first LLL meeting was the first time I saw a sling(s) IRL. It wasn't long before I had one of my own.
When I traded on the TP was the first time I saw a CD IRL.
I will be the only mama I know of at my large meeting to be CD my child. That's ok though, I bet I'll have some converts soon enough! But now that you mention it, it is suprising!

Michelle


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

I'm so late....but just wanted to say that I can totally relate to the OP.

I was at a mom and baby yoga class this week and I found myself scanning the room hoping to find a CD-ing mama (Didn't. But one mama asked about my dipes and the teacher complimented me on them.







) Of course I didn't go to yoga in search of cloth diapers but it would have been a nice bonus!

I am lucky that there are several CD-ing mamas at my LLL meeting. I don't judge the mamas there who are not CD-ing (and for all I know they CD at home and use sposies when they are out - I have friends who do that too) but I definitely feel an affinity with the CD-ing mamas.









And I understand what the purpose of LLL is but at least in my group we talk about a LOT more than breastfeeding. I'd say the after-LLL meeting (the 1+ hours that we stick around talking after the formal meeting is over) is the best part!









We talk about babywearing and co-sleeping and relationships with our partners and whether or not we are vaxing (and which ones if we are) and which pedi's are AP friendly. I think a lot of us there feel an instant...ahhhhhhh.....I am not a total freak of nature...there are other mamas like me...when we come to the meetings. The first time I went to an LLL meeting it was like MDC in person. I was SOOOOO excited....tandem nursers, slinging mamas, family bedders, CD-ing mamas....oh my!!









So mama I feel your pain and I don't think it makes you a snob....just human. It's nice to be around people that are interested in the same things that we are.









Good luck in your search...

~Erin


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

sigh... just how much money & how many years do you have to have spent cding to be able to post anything here other than 'oooh, fluffy mail!' & not be accused of coming from 'outside' to 'attack the regulars'? i was cding when some of you were IN your 'sposies. (my dd was born in '86, so close at least!) and i was a regular in this forum pre-lala. there are probably some people here who don't remember *heather* as mod.

it's pretty clear that the women here (i wouldn't even say 'dissenting', more 'astonished') with alternate points of view to share are cloth-diapering, cloth-diapering supportive mamas. i didn't call anyone a snob, just pointed out that if someone assumed i just didn't know any better & tried to gently educate me about the existance of cloth diapers because they saw my baby in the evil 'sposie, well, depending on their approach, i'd either have a hell of a laugh, roll my eyes, or if they were very sweet about it i suppose we could end up discussing which version of fbs we liked best, lol.

to just bulldoze everybody that says 'hey, wait a sec, didja consider this?' is not a great way to open one's self to learning experiences. and to call fellow cding mamas 'attackers' & portray them as equivalent to ffers from another board coming here to troll bfing, is absurd.

suse


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsayloo2020*
Gotta feel the LindsayLoo(Lou) love:







You feelin it?









I'm feelin' it


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Suseyblue - With all sincerety I'm wondering which post you are addressing? I am new here so maybe my question seems silly, but I'm not sure who was attacking or being accused of attacking etc....

I honestly think this whole debate came about because people took the "tone" of the OP differently. Having known Whimsytyme from other posts I took her post at face value. She had a dissapointing experience and was sharing with like minded folk.

I'm just trying to see where you are coming fomr in your post, because I'm not clear what you or who you are speaking of (or about).

Thanks


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## amebt (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm jumping in late, but I totally understand the OP. I go to LLL monthly and the first time I went I looked for cd. I met one mom who uses prefolds and plastic pants. I was hoping that there would be other moms who would understand my obsession. But I am converting a few ladies and that is cool.
And now the leader wants me to bring in my diapers to show everyone that cd have come a long way.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lindsaylou*
Suseyblue - With all sincerety I'm wondering which post you are addressing? I am new here so maybe my question seems silly, but I'm not sure who was attacking or being accused of attacking etc....

I'm just trying to see where you are coming fomr in your post, because I'm not clear what you or who you are speaking of (or about).

Thanks









'its just another chance for people to pick on the cloth diaper forum.'

'Why is that whenever there is a slightly "hot" topic, people rush in to attack the regulars of the diapering board??'

clarified?

of course, i was addressing the thread in toto (& the OP), but there are some particulars.

suse


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Amebt, that's great!

It seems to me that the disagreement here is not about whether it is understandable that the OP was disappointed, or whether it is maybe surprising that more people don't cd, but about the tone of the postings about those who don't share our point of view about diapering.

The judgemental tone, imo, came in with comments about people being hypocritical to talk of feeding organic baby food but not use cloth diapers, because of the chemicals used in disposables. Following that logic, anyone here who injects chemicals into their child along with vaccinations is even more 'hypocritical', or anyone who uses any form of chemical cleaners in their home, or anyone who is not perfect for that matter in any aspect of NFL.

That is not the meaning of 'hypocritical'.

It is simply a fact that almost nobody is perfect in their efforts to live a natural lifestyle. Nobody knows everything, and some people havent yet discovered the facts about cloth diapering. Others have decided that it's not for them, for whatever reason, just as people decide whether or not to vaccinate.

Maybe we are reading the tone of the OP differently, but it would seem to me that a more gentle attitude both IRL and on the boards would be more likely to gain converts. When I go out, I change my dd wherever I need to. If someone asks me about the diaper, I talk to them, but I am no more concerned to 'show off' my lovely diapers than I am to show off that I breastfeed or feed organic foods anything else. Maybe I am misreading the tone of the posts, but certainly to me, they seem overly judgemental of those who havent taken the same paths as ourselves.

And again, nobody is coming here as a disposable user to attack anyone. The posters here, if you read carefully, are also cloth users, but those who are taking a different perspective.

I know I'm in a minority here, as I have been when I have tried to post an alternative view on those terrible disposable users who don't change disposables every two hours, like those at the LLL meeting. But I just don't feel that I can identify with this sort of attitude to those who don't share my own personal views, or condone it by being silent.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I guess I am still trying to find a balance of when its ok to speak up loud and clear on a topic and when I should bow my head and be very soft on a topic. Some members are adament that we should vent because this is an AP/NFL board, and others feel we should never vent because someone might get their feelings hurt. I am trying to settle in the middle.

I feel for those who were possible hurt or irked by the OP. I personally was not, but obviously a few were.

Now I can see why more and more people are sticking to "fluff" posts because this is exhausting! I'm sure there will be some learning on my part happening from having posted on this thread. That is why I post on MDC at all! But it does get tiring.

I can see all POV on this thread. But I guess I just feel like I would have to take hours to post if I was to make it so that there was not a person in the world that might be offended.

Its been said over and over agian, and I have changed my POV on the topic a few times, but if we can't vent about the lack of (bfing, cding, babywearing, HB, non-vaxing, no circing etc...) here on MDC then where can we? The OP wasn't out to get anyone....that is why she came here to post her feelings.

Maybe I am way off base, and if I am then I will think long and hard on what everyone has said. I don't think I know it all by a long shot. Just sharing the POV from where I stand at this moment. I will go back and re-read some posts and see if I can pull something else out of what ya'll have said.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Well, I give the OP the benefit of the doubt, that they she was open and friendly and wanted to chat about CDs. I think a vent is just that - a vent. Accusing her of being rude and deserving of their or paranoid is really mean.

If I post a vent about my DH I dont expect everyone to pop in and say, "Oh gosh, you probably deserved it!" or "I hope you don't talk to your DH the way you "sound" in your post", "Oh gosh, DHs arent perfect, get over yourself!!" etc etc.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

who was offended? who was (least of all, me! lol) protesting the need to vent? i love vent threads, do a search & see my defense of the right to be pissy.

but if i vent, there is a way to present an alternate viewpoint (now, isn't that a gentle way to say 'disagree'?







) without saying, 'oh gosh, you probably deserved it!' i want to hear other people's thoughts, even if they don't always mesh with mine- i already have a parrot.

suse


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
'

'Why is that whenever there is a slightly "hot" topic, people rush in to attack the regulars of the diapering board??'

I said that.







I do feel as though the OP and anyone who agreed with her WAS attacked. That's why I said that.







I feel very badly for the OP, she was slammed and treated very harshly by some.









Quote:

and to call fellow cding mamas 'attackers' & portray them as equivalent to ffers from another board coming here to troll bfing, is absurd.
Wow! That's a pretty big assumption you're making there! Did I say anything about you being equivalent to a ffing troll???







You didn't like my assumption, so why did you make one about me?


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*

"And why are we thought of as less NFL/AP than the rest of MDC? "

Who said that and where? Just because some people thought the OP harsh, doesn't mean that they were saying that diapering regulars were less anything than anyone else.


You did: "Ironically, I understood it that a lot of posters in diapering don't like to post elsewhere because they do not practice many other aspects of AP and NFL, they are just diapering enthusiasts."

Not sure why that is what you understood.







The reason I don't participate in many other MDC forums is because I enjoy buying cloth diapers and am looked down upon for being a "consumerist" outside the diapering board, not because I don't practice NFL/AP. I'm not _sure_, but I _think_ quite a few other mamas who stick to the diapering board feel the same way.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

HOLY MOLY! Drop it already. I'm sorry Melanie.

This is a CLOTH DIAPERING forum and she was venting about a CLOTH DIAPERING situation, period.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i think the implication that anyone saying 'whoa' anywhere in this forum is a troublesome outsider is pretty obvious. it's getting kind of old. i said i understood the desire to show off my pretty dipes; i also think expecting LLL to be an extension of the hyena club is like expecting everyone there to be vegan... that reflects some nfl mamas & some mothers who post here, but not all.

i'd like your honest responses; if every mama there cd'd, but had their kids in a pinned white pf with a plain white pull-on whisper-wrap (and still looked at the OPer like she had two heads for getting gushy about the cute fancy dipes), would there still be such a 'wah! they're not one of US!' feeling of disappointment being generated?

suse

ps and if it 'mean' to suggest (nicely & kiddingly) paranoia to think one isn't invited to lunch because one cd's... um. nobody really would seriously think that, right? that the world is against us for cding, and other mamas hate us? most people are really not that interested in analyzing other mom's choices of bum cover, i think.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

cloth, actually, is often recommended by leaders so that you may know if baby is having enough pees in the early weeks. it can be a great helper for breastfeeding mothers.

our leaders recommend it strongly.

of course almost all the mamas in our group already use cloth.

---
having read this whole thread:

cloth diapering is part of being gentle and respectful to your baby. period. i dont understand how people dont see that.

tabitha


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

You know what, i mothered my child gently and respectfully in all the eight months that i did not use cloth, and continued to do so after. I guess i get where you're coming from with that statement, Tabitha, but i feel that it is perfectly possible to be a gentle and attached mother who respects her baby without using cloth. That's all. I hope that your personal world view doesn't hold that one CAN"T be a gentle and respectful mother if one doesn't use cloth.


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## vkberes (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm also coming in here late and have not read every single post so I apologize if this has already been beaten to the ground but it seems like the OP was not too far off in wondering why these people are putting their babies in sposies which are filled with chemicals when they are spouting off about their organic lifestyles:

Quote:

I mean these women were sitting around talking negatively about mamas that feed thier babies jarred food. They were talking about all of the CRAP in the jarred foods, including the organic ones. They continued to talk about thier organic diets and how good it was for the bebe.
It appears that these women were the ones who were being judgmental to start with and honestly, if I heard them talking like that I would wonder the same thing.

The OP stated she went to the meeting because she was thinking about becoming a leader and these were observations that she made. It is funny to read how things have gotten skewed in this thread from what the OP originally commented on.

In any case, no, a person should not go to a LLL and _expect_ the mothers there to be cloth diapering and slinging moms but I don't think it is too far off the mark to take a guess that there is a good possibility that there may be a few. Heck, in the LLL's magazine there are even ads for slings!

OK, I just had to add my 2 cents.


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## hopingforfour (Jun 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ja mama*
Breastfeeding and chemicals in jarred food have something in common. They are nourishment being ingested into the child.

Diapers are topical. They may or may not irritate the baby's skin. But they are not ingested.

LLL is there for nutritional support. For how the food goes into the baby, not what type of diaper the leftovers come out into.


While I agree that diaper chemicals are not ingested. Skin does absorb what it comes into contact with. So some of the chemicals and dioxin leftover from bleaching does get into baby's system.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

chemigogo- it is a process. i have learned new ways to be gentle and respectful. not everyone has all the knowledge they need at the time.

but we also have a responsibility to educate ourselves.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

OK so after all of this I have to wonder if the OP only saw cheap prefolds and gerber vinyl covers would she have been just as dissapointed?

Also if htere had been other cloth diaperers who didn't give a rip about what brand she was using and what style or that it was wool would you still be dissapointed because no one commentedon how nice yours are.

I guess I have never understood the hyena thing non been all that impressed with the expensive diapers and never really cared what someones kid had on thier bum so long as it was working foir them (although I always applaud the choice to use cloth) All I would have noticed if you had been at that meeting was you flaunting your possesions and changing your baby right out in the middle of everything which i consider bad manners and may be why the moms seemed put off by you changing her in the manner that you did, it probably had nothing to do with your choice of diapers.

I have been on this forum longer than most of you (lest you think I am coming just to rip on you), I do remember heather as a moderator, I belive I joined and was thrilled with this forum sometimes along the line of 1999/early 2000 ish, before my second child was born. I stopped coming for a while since this board was so deadfully slow. no more than 2-3 posts on a good day. :LOL

And a general note on diaper snobbery. As cloth diaper advocates it is importnat to mind what you say and how you share. There a certain diaper elitism that goes on and it drives me crazy. I remember the first time I met someone who used something besides prefolds being made to feel like my gerber, polyester spongeing diapers and vinyl pull on pants (which I had been quite happy with by the way) were worse for my baby than disposable. Poeple looking at the set up in disgust, coming here and hearing how yucky they were and how could anyone do that to thier baby. I actually did switch back to disposables after a while because my cloth just wasn't good enough. I was going to give her rashes and heat stroke . . . And then I was told even my prefolds sucked because they were filled with polyester (something I was blissfully unaware of). * years later I am carful to get diapers that are 100% cotton but I still use mostly prefolds and some onesize diapers my friends gave me (I never would have been able to afford them and if Ihad thought they were the only choice for cloth diapering when I started I never ever would have even bothered looking into it further) and i made some nice flannel ones that are cute and simple. But apparently flannel sucks. But I don't care anymore. I have relized what ever absorbs pee works and people have been using non breathable diapers for generations and no one has been tewribly effected yet. I'm OK with system and my children are OK with it but I am ure there are people here who would think "How can she use that" or "that is hardly natrual enough poor baby







: " So when you strut your stuff be careful what kind of vibes you are putting off. I understand you want to show off your fluff but please don't do at the expense of someone else feeling bad about not having stuff as nice as you or as expensive as you and careful that you don't come off making cloth diapering look so expensive and complicated that they shouldn't even bother.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
OK so after all of this I have to wonder if the OP only saw cheap prefolds and gerber vinyl covers would she have been just as dissapointed?


Why has this turned into a prefold vs. hyena dipe debate??









The OP was disappointed that she didn't see CLOTH. She never said she was disappointed about not seeing hyena dipes. I'm not the OP, but I think she would've been happy to see another mom who was educated enough to not use disposables no matter what type of cloth it was.

ETA: sorry to keep this going ChristinaB.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

I converted to cloth after seeing cloth at LLL.

I went to LLL this week and *expected* to see cloth there. And I did!









I don't think it is wrong to expect or hope to see cloth at LLL.

I also go for the bf support and the social aspect. All of it.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Good post Vkbrebs and Kimberly...

Very good observation Kellie!!!!! Don't be sorry, _you're_ not missing the point of the post. I find it pointless to keep going on and on about this though... can I say it again? CLOTH DIAPERS


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I was just asking. She made a point of mentioning hyena dypes specifically and wanting to show them off (and my definition of hyena dipe is anything over $12 dollars) so I was wondering if she would have felt the same let down if there was no one to go gaga over the her dipes. Was it just that she wanted to see the world in cloth or was it that she wanted someone to sit and chat about diapers with. Both neutral, just wondering.

And I was just commenting on the whole diaper snobbery thing because it always crops up in posts like this and then then people pretend it doesn't exist or doesn't see how it hurts diaper advocacy. And a diaper advocate is the the best you can hope to be in a room full of non-cloth diapering mamas.


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

Okay I haven't read all the posts but I can tell its a heated debate but would like to comment to the OP. There might have very well been CD users in the group. I have CD my DD pretty much since birth but It took me a while to brave cloth in public. (Though I did use tushies at least and maybe so are these moms?) maybe you showing confidence with using CD in public made somone think well if she can do it so can I.
A attend a playgroup with many AP, cosleeping BF, slinging CD moms. Yet when ever we "recruit" a new member about 90% of the time they will be a CD user but only at home, but when they see us think nothing of changing a poppy CD right in the middle of the park, they begin to relax and after a while we see them sart to bring their kids in CDs, we also have those who stick with the huggies and I at least wont think of them anyless than my CD friends.

Deanna


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## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

I actually dread opening the diaper thread now - wondering what hung-up mama took me wrong and now has thier panties/dipes in a wad!









suseyblue - I never said I wan't invited to lunch because I CDd, you simply ASSUMED that. There were probably a few reasons, my proud CDing just being one of them. I wouldn't participate in thier jarred food cutting or on a couple of other "bad mamas do this" discussions, again because I was in awe at the double standard.

lilyka - I find it humorous that you have decided what the defining price is for a hyena dipe and then proceeded to blast me for daring to be proud of what falls into your category. You ASSUME that I have the same defining price or that I even care what yours is.

Many of you have taken my simple comments and screwed them all up so that you can get up on your high horses and tell me that I have no right to my opinion or to a tone (if there was one). And that to be "nice" if I am going to post here. That I basically need to post in a manner that won't tick you off or rub you the wrong way. Well, this post obviously wasn't meant for you, so I wasn't taking you into consideration! You too are ASSUMING too much in regards to your influence or the validity of anything that you have posted. *What I have found interesting is that when I painstakingly went back through your post history, many of you have never posted here before and if you have it has not really been in support of anything. While stalking this thread pretty much none of you have even offered any advice or good will to any of the mamas in any of the other MANY threads here in this forum. SHAME ON YOU!







 I must have missed it but is there a search bar just for potentially controversial threads? 'Cause you all obviously used it to get here!"







: 









Once again I say THANK YOU MAMAS, that say it is okay to have a vent, an opinion and heaven forbid an observation!!!! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU for voicing your support and exasperation! I would like to thank you all individually but I am afaird I might overlook someone and I certainly wouldn't want to do that! Thanks for sharing the FLUFF!!!!







*


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## stacey0402 (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*







forget it, its pointless radish... its just another chance for people to pick on the cloth diaper forum.







And MDC wonders why half the posters of this forum dont like to post elsewhere.

FYI-

Cloth diapering has nothing to do with your social or economic class. You can do it if you are poor (prefolds and cheap covers) or you can do it if your rich. There is no bias there.









I agree completely. I think it is very interesting to see names I have never seen posting on this thread. Seriously, I don't even feel like some of these comments are being directed at the OP, but at the Diapering board as a whole


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

To the OP: (yes, I read the whole thread but, really all I see is diatribes, judgements, and people making something about THEM that's not, anyway I digress.)

I agree. I would have done the proverbial, "errrr?" When I heard the bashing of the baby jar feeders. Although, cloth probably wouldn't have entered my mind. I probably would have thought... "hmm that's a bit harsh, maybe this place won't be for me after all."

I guess unless your NFL PURE, someone is always going to be able to say "oh, well she CDs, but did you see what she feeds her baby, *gasp*."

FWIW, I do totally understand your disappointment. I am disappointed by my local LLL too for other reasons (unrelated to NFL) that go against my personal ethics.

I lurk here A LOT, but post rarely... just so you don't think I am an illegal immigrant.

Hugs... mama. I understood what you meant.

Olivia


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacey0402*
I agree completely. I think it is very interesting to see names I have never seen posting on this thread. Seriously, I don't even feel like some of these comments are being directed at the OP, but at the Diapering board as a whole









Well, ouch.

I don't post regularly here, only because we use a very "set" stash and I don't buy many cool dipes, but I *am* a cloth diapering mama.

My opinion isn't welcome in the diapering forum?


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## stacey0402 (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys*
Well, ouch.

I don't post regularly here, only because we use a very "set" stash and I don't buy many cool dipes, but I *am* a cloth diapering mama.

My opinion isn't welcome in the diapering forum?

That is not what I said at all. There are threads here daily started by "newbies" wanting help...people wanting to know what to do to get rid of build-up, etc... and I don't see many of the people in this PARTICULAR thread posting to help out. Suddenly there's a bit of drama and I see names I've never seen before. I just find it interesting. The diapering board isn't only here to help you find out what cool diapers you should buy. I welcome opinions, particularly those that make me think in ways I never thought of before.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am sincerly sorry. I wasn't trying to "blast" you. I was sincerly wondering if your dissapointment stemmed from the fact that no one was willing to cloth diaper or that there was no one to share you enthusiasm with with. Because I was wondering even if there had been someone there cloth diapering but not with fancy diapers that were worth gshing over or if there was someone there who considered cloth diapers just a way to cover a babies butt and nothing worth talking about would you have been still dissapointed. Probably not enough to come here and rant but would it have still been a let down. If there were only mothers using polyester dime store diapers and gerber covers would you have thought they needed to switch to wool to be crunchy enough. .

The only reason I brought up the whole diaper snob thing is because this always happens. Someone starts a thread like this and a bunch of people get defensive and then people wonder why. Well it is because this is always bubbling under the surface. there are people who actually come here to talk about more than just the latest brand or cutest diaper. they actually need the facts to get going and stay going with something practical and useable but then they feel elf conscience or inferior because htey are putting the wrong diaper on thier baby or the opccaisionally use disposables. I usually only post on thread where someone is asking for help with regular diapers or want to know a cheap way to get started.

Sorry to cause such a ruckus. never mind.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
there are people who actually come here to talk about more than just the latest brand or cutest diaper. they actually need the facts to get going and stay going with something practical and useable but then they feel elf conscience or inferior because htey are putting the wrong diaper on thier baby or the opccaisionally use disposables.

Maybe I am totally blind, but I don't see anyone telling anyone else that they are putting the wrong diaper on their baby or getting upset at someone who occasionally uses a disposable.







Didn't we cover all of this when that post was started by klothos wondering why people put down others who use pfs (and we came to the conclusion that it does NOT happen).

If someone is happy with the system they have chosen, then they shouldn't feel inferior because someone posts about another brand or type of diaper.


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## wildthing (Feb 16, 2003)

To the OP:
I have been cloth diapering and going to LLL meetings for 17 years. It just so happened that the first baby I breastfed I also cd'ed. When I was regularly attending LLL meetings, I would guess about 75% of the babies were cd'ed. I don't know if the others were cd'ed at home or not. We all used pre-folds, but we had the cool Rubber Duckie nylon wraps and the even cooler Wild Ducks print pull-on pants (anyone else remember those???? Or am I just REALLY old? :LOL )

I don't regularly attend monthly meetings anymore, but when I do get to one, I also scan, looking for another cd'ing mama. I am always thrilled to *talk shop* with someone else. I first saw a Motherease Sandi IRL at a leader's meeting. If I see moms with pre-folds, it is a good opportunity to learn a different way of folding (there have been a few threads about this too). I do the same thing at other times. We went to the zoo, and in the bathroom, changing her newborn little boy, was a mama with some little tiny AIO's....Kooshies maybe? ( I haven't seen one IRL) We didn't talk, just smiled at each other for our diapers.

I understand your disappointment, but maybe you will find other cd'ers in the most unlikely place.


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## jazzpurr88 (May 20, 2003)

Jake is the only CD babe in the BF support group we go to







. He does have some CD friends at Attachment Parenting group


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Jodie, there are moms in LLL who cloth diaper too, but they are mostly the same moms in the AP playgroup and API group.







I cloth diaper, but I use disposables sometimes. For some reason at LLL, I rarely change the diaper during the meeting even though she is wearing cloth. I always feel like a chicken with my head cut off, so I usually don't change the diaper until everyone is gone and I have a minute to not pay attention. I usually bring along a couple of cute diapers, but they sit in the bag. It seems like the moms in our LLL and AP groups are more into cloth diapering for the frugal aspects, so no one notices the diapers anyway. Mine are all pretty old anyway, but they are still cute to me.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I think it is very interesting to see names I have never seen posting on this thread. Seriously, I don't even feel like some of these comments are being directed at the OP, but at the Diapering board as a whole"

I really think you are misinterpreting. Just because some people have a different view, doesnt mean they are visiting here to get at anyone, least of all the diapering board!!

I'm sure if you only visit the diapering forum, you wouldn't recognise my name. But I cloth diaper, and I use the forum, and when I can, I give answers to people's queries. If someone asks what they use to stuff FB at night or what their favourite pocket diapers are, if I see the post and there aren't many answers, I will reply. But I don't post on fluff threads as I am not a hyena. Simple as that. But diapering moves fast, and threads are lost fast. Names like mine wont' be well known because of that, but I've been here long enough to remember Heather. In fact, I bought my first stash of diapers from her.









Attack the diapering board?? I _love_ the diapering board, even though I am not a hyena. It is one of my most useful sources of cd information. Why would anyone want to attack the board? That makes no sense to me at all.

I also believe that most people who aren't interested in diapering have their New Posts filter out diapering threads, so it seems unlikely that they are rushing over here to attack anyone. If they want excitement I imagine they are hanging out at Activism right now. Believe me, there's much more action going on there if you want to pick an argument.









Different views on a subject do not equate to attack. They are just differing views.

And as for being offended, if you had a ton of disposable users here saying they are offended, I could believe that to be true. But the people who are posting to say that they think the OP harsh seem to also be saying they are cd users. (like myself).

Anyway, it seems that most people see nothing wrong with the OP's attitude, so there you go. I personally find even some of the smilies used to anyone who questions her quite rude and prevocative. Such as







and







Hardly the image of gentleness, imo.

But as someone said, this thread is leading nowhere..............


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## mum2tori (Apr 7, 2003)

Wow, that took a while to read through.
















I can totally understand Melanie/OP's surprise at the double standard. Here were a group of women that were tearing apart another mothers' use of jarred food (even organics) because of the *chemicals* but then have disposible diapers (which ARE full of chemicals and honestly does anyone NOT know that?) on their own children. No, I don't think that being as a LLL meeting would automatically mean everyone should be using cloth (a little surprising that there wasn't any). I think it was more the general attitude of the group that is disappointing. It didn't sound like a very friendly and supportive group honestly.









I am surprised at the number of people that I see that post to the hot topics but don't seem to take the time to post to the 'help me" posts. There are a lot of those posts that don't get the proper number of replies. And it's very sad.

I'm kind of curious how many of them also use disposible nursing pads that are full of chemicals? Those DO leave a chemcial residue on the breast and all of them say you should wash the breast before offering to the child. That should DEFINITELY be a concern for BFing moms. Those little things that make you go hmmm...









Melanie- I'm sorry that you weren't able to find some IRL CDing moms or even some FRIENDLY people at your meeting.
















ETA: Wanted to clarify that the "them" I was refering to using the disposible nursing pads were the women at the LLL meeting.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I don't have time to read the whole thread-- I just wanted to say that I think everyone has their pet cause, and maybe theirs is bfing, not diapering. I do think it's funny that they were complaining about jarred babyfood though! lol!

BTW I bottlefed both kids, and I also cloth diapered both kids from birth.

Darshani


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I am surprised at the number of people that I see that post to the hot topics but don't seem to take the time to post to the 'help me" posts. There are a lot of those posts that don't get the proper number of replies. And it's very sad."

Wasting my time here, I know, but as I've said several times, I really don't think this is true.

Maybe the reality is that some of us who are dissenting here are not posting mainly on diapering because diapering is not a big topic for us. It's something we do, are interested in, but not enough to post a ton on the board about. That is certainly the case for me, but does it mean that I have no right to express an opinion about this topic? I don't comment much about fluffy mail or new stockings because I am not that interested in either. But I _am_ interested in cloth diapering as a NFL issue and in gently helping others who might wish to make the switch to cloth.

As I just said, I can help someone who asks about pocket diapers and a few WAHM diapers, but that's about it. I am not enough of an expert to give people detailed advice about a newborn stash (although if it is something specific that I know about, eg recently about wonderoos, I post becasue this is something I am doing myself, have been researching, and have questions along with some answers for others.)

Maybe then, those who are finding the tone here about non-cd users uncomfortable are less passionate about cloth diapers and so are seeing the whole picture more completely. ie, how these women at the LLL meeting, or anyone reading here, may feel having someone either IRL or on this board talking about them this way because they don't make the choices that we have made.

I really think that if you take the line that anyone who is not in agreement with the majority here is just out to cause trouble, you are missing the important point that many of us are trying to make.

How many of us are perfect? I put all sorts of poisons into my first child's body via vaccinations, before I read enough from both sides to _really_ understand what I was doing. I did, however, know more about nutrition, and fed all my children only breastmilk then organic foods. _It did not occur to me that disposable diapers were full of chemicals though!_ Maybe that was obvious to most of you, but it had not truly occurred to me. Everyone around me used them, and I had never seen a modern cloth diaper. Several people have made that point, but it seems to go unheeded here.

Was I hypocritical, or just a little imperfect?

That is the point that some of us were trying to make. To just ease up on these mamas who don't meet with your ideals. Sure, the disappointment of the OP is understandable, but to attack them this way, and to then dismiss anyone who puts an alternative point of view as being here simply to make trouble, shows a close-mindedness imo. Saying that it's fine to talk about non-cding mothers this way here because it's a diapering forum is missing the point. Intolerance is intolerance.

Now, to have phrased the OP differently - eg: to invite a discussion about why so few mums have learned about cding, using the example of attending the LLL meeting, would make for a far more interesting and useful debate imo. The people we should be criticising should surely be the people promoting these disposable diapers and giving out their free samples to hook parents. Not those who honestly have never even seen any alternative.

With this, I"m leaving this thread. I know I"m heavily outnumbered here.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Yes, I read the whole thread.

The OP does not know who was watching while she changed that diaper. Personally, finally caved to cloth when the LLL leader at a meeting (and I don't go regularly at all, but was just looking to be out of the house and there was a meeting that morning) changed her DD in the middle of the floor, and it just looked so easy, and I'd always thought it so complicated ... and then I started hanging around this forum occasionally. And a kind mama here helped me buy a cheap starter stash with an easy payment plan (we're not in good shape financially) and got a few larger size hand-me-downs a few months back, too ... anyway, you may think their noses went up, but you don't know. Really. And maybe you put an idea iin someone's head ...

And no, I don't post in this forum too often. And only started CD'ing to any degree a year ago.

And BTW, the LLL leader who I first saw uses a service, and any CD'ing mamas I've met IRL either use a service or have their own washing machines and dryers ... I do not have my own machine, must use public machines. I do not have any child care, and must take all my kids with me to do laundry. And I do not have a car, so must haul it all ... laundry, detergent, preschoolers, toddler, and now babe-in-sling. So I no longer totally CD. Am 50/50 ... on a good day. Which I personally think is quite an accomplishment.

I've educated myself, I care about my children, but there's only so much I can do.

Am leaving out the other AP "standards" ... some I meet, some I don't.

Judgmentalism doesn't help anyone, and doesn't make converts, either.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

I attend 3 different LLL meetings. I would say that about 30% of the moms CD to some degree. I do not as I have yet to find affordable diapers to fit my toddler who has a 28" waist and thighs like tree trunks. And as a SAHM, I don't have a lot of extra $$ for a bunch of custom made diapers.







It makes me sad because those cloth potty trainers are so cute and I would love to use them.

But I can sympathize with the OP. I met a mom at a LLL meeting and assumed that she would be AP and pretty liberal. She turned out to be a huge racist who spanked and fed her kids trash all day long. It was a little startling. I have learned that BFing is something we will all have in common. Anything else is gravy.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lilyka, are we the ones she meant? lol, omg. the dipe forum is where i got to know you. wish we had a post count for how many diaper posts we have collectively (counting my 3000 pre-crash, lol- less time with two babies, it will take me awhile to work up to your kind of numbers.) strangers to this forum we are not.

please britishmum, don't go. you may be outnumbered but i think you are making very calm, well-mannered excellent points.

i know a number of people who cd but don't come here much anymore. what was a 'hey, aren't these great?' addition to the choices has become de rigeuer, & it does sadden me to see moms with questions about getting started (beyond what's 'hot' that day) get buried beneath 16 pages of fluff (literally) threads. i try to catch those and help when i can, but it's a lot harder to find them these days.

(and yes, i remember the rubber duckies in the back pages of mothering all those years ago, lol, but i stuck with 2 nikkis & an aristocrat. talk about budget!)

i wish budget considerations for the board (i know what's paying the bills, sigh) would allow the diaper forum to be what it once was (perhaps a sub-forum for the hyenas?) to put things back in proportion. i wanna see what new dipes are out and what prints are available and who got what? THEN i wade thru a page of ads.

i need to know how to get the stink out of my pail or what is least leaky in the opinions of most people? boop! the diaper forum, plain & simple. most newbies to the game uninterested in the hype are not going to know enough to search the archives- they'd like a real live cding mom as a confidante to get them started.

(and if anyone is calling lilyka a newbie here without a right to an opinion... good god. she is the cd queen.







how much of what you read has to be hyena fluff not to know that?)

suse


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Suseyblue,

I too think that Britishmum has some good points. As for the cd forum being *all* about hyena dipes....have you taken a close look at all th posts? Sure some are fluff posts, what is so bad about enjoying cding? There are also many practical posts about how to make cding more enjoyable and more functional. As we move into a new season we need to know how to prevent compression wicking so there is one about wool and fleece pants. Which WAHM makes the most affordable best performing wool and fleece pants?

As for newbies...*many* posters here make a *huge* effort to help them out so they can get started easily. 2 months ago I came here knowing *nothing*. Now, I answer the newbie posts with ease. How could I have done that unless all the regulars on this board helped me through? I have never visited the archives.

One new mama just posted a hello I'm new here and didn't even ask any Q's. She got two pages of welcomes!

It saddens me to see this "I've been here longer than you so talk to the hand" attitude here. This forum is about cloth diapering. Like it or not there are some talented WAHM's staying home with their babies making awesome diapers! They are talked about on this forum with near equal frequency as new ways to fold pre-folds and how to get rid of the stink in my hemp.

If you are truly hanging out here on occasion I think you would see that the conversation is not all about hyena dipes. Occasionally everyones cd's are working great and we don't get a newbie for a day or two so hyena dipes may have more posts dedicated to them. It does not mean we are ignoring newcomers.

I hope this thread will eventually die with grace and all of having learned something.

I agree with everyone who said we shouldn't judge mamas who don't cd. I just don't think that was what the OP was doing. I think she was upset and came here to share her frustration. So, I guess, in a way I agree with most of the posters on this thread.


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## stacey0402 (Aug 16, 2003)

I just wanted to volunteer a big group hug! I know I personally (being the owner of a few too many hyena dipes) felt attacked, but maybe I was being a bit too sensitive. My favorite thing about this board is that I am constantly learning, even when I think I know it all







I am so grateful for the gathering of smart mommas that enrich my life every day







I've been visiting this board for a little over a year now and it has evolved with the times. I too long for things to be a little less about fancy expensive diapers and more about NFL. I don't think the OP meant anything bad when she posted, and I don't think those who expressed differing opinions were necessarily attacking anybody...perhaps just "venting" a little frustration too. Okay then....







If all us cloth diapering weirdos don't have eachother...who else will we have??


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Wonderful post Stacey


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lol,







i hope i didn't come across as 'talk to the hand'. and recently i have seen more outreach efforts to the newbies (thanks for the efforts, guys!) but to be told i've never posted here before (if i was one of the ones meant... or lilyka!)









the only thing being an oldtimer here is relevant to is a) like it or not, when someone posts things that are critical, it seems a lot less rude if it's *not* their first posts, & b), it does give some perspective.

i would probably not have gotten as involved in cding as i did had the emphasis been so purely on stalking in the beginning. and when it got that way, i drifted off & my 6 years of cding experience was gone (boo-hoo, i know.) but even if you would rather not ever see my contentious butt in here again, a lot of other great mamas drifted off then, too. great mamas who even enjoyed great, cute, popular dipes, but could not get into the whole hyena thing.

i mean, i was happy when i got my fmbgs, but i wouldn't have hung around my pc slavering, waiting for the opportunity! it's NOT that there is something wrong with that, if that is your hobby. it's when it became the focus of the whole dang forum & people who were in it for purely the comfort & environmental reasons got shunted aside. i could never wrap myself around 'cute' trumping soft, ecologically sound, affordable diapers.

if there were 3/4 questions/discussions relating to cding, to 1/4 hyena (oh GOD, who came up with that term? i was around but forget) posts, these irritations & leavetakings would never have come up. (that seemed like a sensible ratio to pull out of my hat, lol.)

but the whole point has gotten lost. no way is yet another diaper-snipe post in line with the philosophy of mothering magazine. those of us who have been reading the mag for (yikes) going on twenty years can't help flinching at a trend that in no way reflects peggy o'mara's initial vision.

well, *i* hope the thread doesn't disappear. questioning the status quo has been part of mothering from the beginning. if you believe you are right, tell us why (i thank the mom who said she'd be just as happy if the LLL had all been in gerber birdseye- paraphrased, lol- and the mom who said they *have* been making an effort to stay on top of the newbie questions more. these are valid answers! thank you for taking this seriously enough to answer!)

is the fact that i'm not in the market for more diapers really enough to make me unwelcome in the diapering forum? questioning consumerism is par for this board and the magazine in every forum but here.










negative comments directed to mamas like my old diapering bud lilyka & excellent britishmum because they are making a point one doesn't agree with are depressing to me. i wish more of you could've been around when lilyka posted the bulk of her 3000+ diapering posts, lol, she was always an inspiration.

anyway, i hope i have been clear enough, even in my irritation when it seems like NO ONE IS LISTENING, that bashing the diaper forum & my fellow cding mamas is not my intention. whimsy, i'm sorry if i misread (i didn't assume anything, i thought i read it that way, as did the other ladies who addressed it- no time right now to reread)
your story about lunch. i'm glad to know you don't think the world hates cding mamas, lol! (a secret- at playdates i've been disappointed when there weren't as many cloth diped babies as i'd have liked, too. and before they started leaking to high heaven we always wore the red fb to the dr's office to show off.)

shalom, suse


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I really dont want to keep bumping this thread cause it seems pointless to me as nothing is going to be "settled" ... but just wanted to point out I think its wrong to assume this forum is all about consumerism and thats it. I just searched through 4 pages of post and found *66* cloth diapering related posts to only *10* Hyena posts. And by Hyena posts I mean talking about hard to get diapers, ANY stocking (hard to get or not) and the daily fluffymail posts. Thast not a bad ratio IMO and pretty standard unless there is a stocking that day. Of course on days that big stockings happen there are more posts about it... thats to be expected.


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## norcalmommy (May 4, 2004)

Everyone has made some really good points...
Now I wish this thread would DIE ALREADY!


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

I want this thread to die too if only for the OP but I cannot not respond, sorry&#8230;

I am really tired of the threads/posts about consumerism and the cheap shots at how much some mamas spend on CDing. Okay, it is established - consumerism is bad and some mamas buy too many dipes. We are aware of this, have you seen "The Wagon"? Unless these mamas are asking for *your* help, let's just keep your thoughts on "diaperism" to yourself. I mean, if not, what is the point?

The PF/plastic pant mamas post about how Hyena-mamas are elitists and how the whole forum is about stalking and each time this subject comes up someone (like Tiffany) comes in w/ actual posts and stats to show otherwise. Maybe the Mamas "feel" this way, feel left out b/c they aren't doing the hyena-thing but I don't think they are truly being shunned.

I said this in jest a while ago but if you feel strongly about this, post your concerns in Activism and think of constructive ways to help stop consumerism in diapers. I don't think posts here are constructive. Hyenas will stop when they are ready.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Posting again to add two things.

I wonder if this is unique to diapering. BW is becoming more popular and mamas are beginning to post "show their stash" threads. Sure, you only *need* 1 sling and some slings cost more than some people spend on a week of groceries but I dont get "why" this matters to those who only have 1 sling. YK? I am curious to see if the same thing happens.

I am so bugged by this and I guess it is because *most* of us are practicing NFL and are pretty "green" or aspire to be. Sure, I can go on about how long I have been here and how long I have read Mothering and how I washed at a laundry mat for 7 months and that we recycle and freecyle and are vegan and on and on just so everyone knows how hard-core I am but *WHY* should I have to.

I am constanly justifying my CD stash and I am sick of it. Feeling like I need to explain that most of my dipes are from WAHM trades so people don't think I am a consumerist pig that they need to "save" or worse...that I am not following Peggy Omara's vision.


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

hey! I have a wild ducks fruit print!!!

Seriously, though, if I had not found a cder IRL, I might have gone looking for one at a LLL meeting, and been disappointed. And if said LLLers were attempting to portray themselves as all natural, and stuck sposies on their babies butts, I would have thought they were hypocrits.

However. I think this forum sometimes goes off the deep end for natural family living. I cannot bf my newest. He is adopted. It didn't work out. I would not shun someone else for ff a baby in the same situation. Sometimes things just don't work out the way you want them to, and that's it. I often feel cornered here because there are alot of things that my family chooses not to do that MDC (and lots of mamas here) support. I have opened baby food and fed it to my children (usually organic, but still). On the other hand, my dh masticates for our baby. Can't get much more natural than that, yet how many mdc parents do? I have said it before, and I will say it again. I am here about the diapers. I am not here to shoot down other mamas choices.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Just another thought that popped into my head while grocery shopping... yes buying diapers in the "hyena fashion" could be considered "consumerism" but if so its a form of consumerism I happily support because its keeping more great mamas home with their babies. I just cant help but feel that the consumerism in diapering is a good thing when it has such a good result for so many WAHMs.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Tiffany, your last two post were BRILLIANT! thank you.

I don't understand why people keep refering to past posters and past (past past past) things that went on on this board, the CD board. The past is the past and things will never be the same here as they were years ago...Let's move on.

Who really cares about "hyena" posts or posts about WAHM's, we all use those diapers. So on a CD board, I find it normal to talk about these things, no?!
If they bug you, don't read them. If you don't like the "hyena" talk or the diapers, get over it. To each his own.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Stepping back in for a moment to try to clarify.

The reason for people mentioning having been around for a long while is simply that those of us who put forward an alternative point of view were dismissed as being 'new names' to Diapering who were trying to cause trouble.

This is simply not so, most of us are long term diapering readers and contributors to the diapering forum, although (probably significantly) not hyenas. Our point was that our names may well not be 'known' to many of you because we are not into fluff threads.

Nobody posted here to cause trouble, but wanted to offer an alternative point of view. Our point of view does not seem to be popular, but I do wonder how many people have taken time to really consider it carefully, rather than seeing it as an attack, which it is not in any way.

Hope this clarifies.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

I *think* the newbie comment was made to the posters on the first couple pages (villagemama and darrel) who have only a few posts...as well as to the posters with high post count that arent current "regulars" in the diapering forum or that haven't posted in other "help" threads recently but hop on the "hyena-bashing" threads.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *radish*
I *think* the newbie comment was made to the posters on the first couple pages (villagemama and darrel) who have only a few posts...as well as to the posters with high post count that arent current "regulars" in the diapering forum or that haven't posted in other "help" threads recently but hop on the "hyena-bashing" threads.

Thank you for claifying that Regina! I was the one who made a comment about people coming and attacking. I certainly didn't mean they are trolls, but they ARE names I see often in the threads where consumerism and hyenas are talked about in a bad way.

Tiff ~ I TOTALLY agree with you about supporting the WAHMs! I would much rather spend what I do knowing it's going to a mama who is home with her kiddos than spending less to support a big company.


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## Max's Mami (May 25, 2003)

I pretty much decided to stay out of this because it seems like a two sided issue which neither side is willing to give on.

But it does seem to me that a lot of people come out of the wood work to pass judgement on threads like these and never participate in more positive, helpful threads. Both newbies and long time members who I assume spend most of their time on other boards.

There alwasy seem to be people looking for a fight and when there is any little think they can jump on to create controversy they do. There is expressing your opinion and then there is just plain rude. Rude seems to win in these cases.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Max's Mami*
I pretty much decided to stay out of this because it seems like a two sided issue which neither side is willing to give on.

But it does seem to me that a lot of people come out of the wood work to pass judgement on threads like these and never participate in more positive, helpful threads. Both newbies and long time members who I assume spend most of their time on other boards.

There alwasy seem to be people looking for a fight and when there is any little think they can jump on to create controversy they do. There is expressing your opinion and then there is just plain rude. Rude seems to win in these cases.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ok.. my 2 cents now..

well, I understand your frustration. (to the OP) I know you think by going to a LLL meeting, you expect to find NFL mamas. my experience was not like that, at all! the first LLL meeting I went to (one closest to where I live) had mostly bf'ing mamas, but only a few CD'ing. HOWEVER, I did notice that a lot of mamas brag about giving their baby homemade babyfood, when in reality, all I ever saw was jars of gerber. I met one particular person that did this, told everyone she gave her baby homemade, then everytime I saw her, there was jarred. what's up with that?







but anyway, I changed LLL groups, the only I go now is much crunchier and natural. plus the mamas are REALLY in real life crunchy, not "I pretend to be crunchy but then I go home, use sposies at night, come on MDC and say sposies are gross" or "I tell everyone I make homemade babyfood but 95% of the time I used jarred" kind of person. kwim? I don't like sinical people, that's the biggest issue for me. being true to what you believe and what you do and not doing something and saying the opposite or trashing what you (general you) do.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh.. and I forgot to post.. we CD and I consider myself a hyena, even though I usually frequent other boards more often that the diapering board. (I could say I'm a "regular" at TAO, BS&A and others)


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Well, I tried to clarify. Seems that some people want to retread the same ground and see any alternative point of view as being trouble-making.

I for one was not looking for a fight. Just trying to discuss, but it seems that this is too black and white an issue for most people for there to be any middle ground for discussion.

I will say once again that it's a shame that the discussion could not have been about why mamas mostly have not considered cloth and how this could be addressed. And that negativity could not be directed against the diaper manufacturers who hold the cards. Instead of seeing it as an 'us and them' regarding cds vs disposable users, and even more sad, an 'us and them' re people on this board. Who presumably all share the same overall philosophy of NFL.

As for anti-hyena threads, I must have missed those as I've never seen one, let alone participated.









Oh well.


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## sovereignqueen (Aug 5, 2004)

I'm in a mommy group where nearly everyone BFs, but only 2 of us CD (and I "cheat" by using a diaper service). When a bunch of us went to lunch one of the women went off on CDs saying that they were worse than 'sposies because washing them hurt the environment more. She also made a comment that on the east coast it made more sense to CD, but out in California where there's plently of landfill space it made more sense to use 'sposies instead of poluting by washing dirty CDs.







Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I really had to bite my tounge on that one.


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## Max's Mami (May 25, 2003)

I totally agree that we should be able to discuss and voice our opinions here but there is a nice and considerate way it can be done and most often is not.

It is fine to state your opinion and have it differ from the majority but it doesnt have to be followed by judgement toward those with different views.

Not saying everyone does this but that is what most of this type of thread turn into.

I also agree that nothing in mothering should be an "us vs. them" battle. It seems that when people are not comfortable with their choices they get defensive when they hear others doing things differently.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"She also made a comment that on the east coast it made more sense to CD, but out in California where there's plently of landfill space it made more sense to use 'sposies instead of poluting by washing dirty CDs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I really had to bite my tounge on that one."

That is a very common misconception. I know that I"ve read articles stating this as fact. I'm sure the disposable companies love it.

This is an illustration of the point that I've already laboured too much..... it would be far more productive to discuss _these_ issues and why people are so uniformed about cds, than to rant about 'those' women who make such comments.

But it seems that nobody here wants to have this sort of discussion. Maybe it would be better to have it on Activism. Maybe people visit Diapering for different reasons and debate just doesnt work here? Do most diapering people not want debate, but just want chat and to rant if they wish? (I'm not being snarky, btw, but genuinely wondering. I've found myself a lone - or almost lone - voice whenever I've gone against the grain here before and tried to offer an alternative view.)

I have never, imo anyway, been rude, either on this thread or elsewehre on mdc. I don't see this thread as people being rude either, but just frustrating as there seems to be no effort to really listen or to debate or discuss.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*

This is an illustration of the point that I've already laboured too much..... it would be far more productive to discuss _these_ issues and why people are so uniformed about cds, than to rant about 'those' women who make such comments.

But it seems that nobody here wants to have this sort of discussion. Maybe it would be better to have it on Activism. Maybe people visit Diapering for different reasons and debate just doesnt work here? Do most diapering people not want debate, but just want chat and to rant if they wish? (I'm not being snarky, btw, but genuinely wondering. I've found myself a lone - or almost lone - voice whenever I've gone against the grain here before and tried to offer an alternative view.)


Okay, first of all, are you SURE the OP didn't debate or was unwilling to at her LLL meeting?? Honestly, what is wrong with her coming here (to a board of fellow CDING mamas) to, yes, *rant* about her disappointment?? No one said they would not try to calmly discuss the benefits of cd'ing IRL, but doing so here is like preaching to the choir! She came HERE to vent her frustration and people got upset with her for that which *I* believe was uncalled for.

As far as you being rude, I don't think anyone ever said you were.







You have calmly discussed/debated your point of view.


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## Max's Mami (May 25, 2003)

Britishmum -- I am not directing my posts at you. I think you have been very polite and expressed a different opinion in a civilized way and that is great.

I do think calling someone a snob in a judgmental/derogatory way is rude and that has been done a lot and not just in this thread.


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Back to the op. I just wanted to say I know it's a disappointment to not find people who cd. But if it's any consolation, I know tons of irl cders, but none of them are as excited about it as I am. They actually look at me like I have two heads. :LOL







Debi


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Kellieblue, I was talking about debating _here_. It does seem from the general concensus here that people on diapering _do_ want to just chat with the choir, and that anyone questioning someone's attitude to fellow mothers is therefore seen as a trouble-maker.

It seems that the general mdc culture of questioning and challenging people's thinking does not apply to diapering. If you went anywhere else on mdc, the sort of challenges put up here would not be seen remotely as trouble making, but as a cue to think, analyse, and discuss.

I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here, and will keep my posts in diapering to fluffy stuff.

Thank you both for at least clarifying that my wider questioning here is not seen as rude. It seemed as if all those who put forward an alternative point of view were seen as attackers and rude.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

I know that I said that I wasn't going to post again, but I wanted to sincerly apologise for offending you ladies. My initial frustration was because I have had personal experience with a friend who really was offended and spoke negatively about anyone who didn't have the same parenting styles as her. It really affected me, and was always feeling defensive about my own choices and parenting style of doing whatever works best to keep me sane. I find this behaviour to be snobbish... not intending to call anyone in particular a snob. I really just wanted to point out what a turn off it can be ... because we all just want to do the best for our babies that we love, and do not want anyone to think we are doing an imperfect job. anyways I could have said this in a better way but let my own negative experience colour what I was really trying to say...


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## Max's Mami (May 25, 2003)

You know what!? Big FAT HUGS all around!!!!





















And a kiss for good measure!


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
Kellieblue, I was talking about debating _here_. It does seem from the general concensus here that people on diapering _do_ want to just chat with the choir, and that anyone questioning someone's attitude to fellow mothers is therefore seen as a trouble-maker.

It seems that the general mdc culture of questioning and challenging people's thinking does not apply to diapering. If you went anywhere else on mdc, the sort of challenges put up here would not be seen remotely as trouble making, but as a cue to think, analyse, and discuss.

I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here, and will keep my posts in diapering to fluffy stuff.

Thank you both for at least clarifying that my wider questioning here is not seen as rude. It seemed as if all those who put forward an alternative point of view were seen as attackers and rude.

This is where I still have a problem... you come back to start a debate on a thread that was never intended to turn into a debate and hurt feelings along the way. Then you say we cannot "handle" anything other than fluffy posts and happy times? um no.
I think some people are missing the point of the OP and it's taking this thread off to another world... She was looking to rant/vent and have other bounce same or similar feelings off of her post.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

ChristinaB, you are confirming what I just concluded.

You say that this was never supposed to be a debate. Anywhere else on mdc, if you post something, you are not surprised if someone picks up on it and debates it. It's the way mdc is as a board - a discussion board.

I don't think that I hurt anyone's feelings. Have you read the posts I made? I do not think I could be any more respectful or polite than I have been. Several people have commented on that.

I did not say either that people here cannot 'handle' debate. I said "I see that this sort of discussion does not culturally 'fit' here". There is a big difference! I was stating what I had learned from this thread, not being critical.

Diapering obviously operates differently to the other mdc forums, or at least, the ones I frequent. Just go to TAO or education, and it is obvious that just about any thread can turn into a debate. And on the whole, that is what people expect (and like) about mdc. If you post a thread to vent about something elsewhere on mdc, it is highly likely that someone will challenge your thinking.

I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings.

All I was doing in my last post was observing that debate clearly is not desired here. No more, no less. You have confirmed this. I have suspected this before, when whole threads have attacked disposable-using parents, with pages of people agreeing, and I have been an almost-lone voice in trying to put forward a different view and see things from their angle.

I will not continue to raise these points, although I think it is a shame as there were a lot of thought-provoking points made here that could have encouraged many of us - including me - to consider our principles and our reactions to others in the cd world and the world in general. It has been interesting that other threads have been started elsewhere on mdc in response to the general content of this one, and people are debating thoughtfully there. I am happy to go there to debate these sorts of issues, now that I understand that it is not wanted by the majority here.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

Britishmum said:


> Diapering obviously operates differently to the other mdc forums, or at least, the ones I frequent. Just go to TAO or education, and it is obvious that just about any thread can turn into a debate. And on the whole, that is what people expect (and like) about mdc. If you post a thread to vent about something elsewhere on mdc, it is highly likely that someone will challenge your thinking.
> 
> I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings."
> 
> I agree.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

No one says CD-mamas are excluded from debate. But if you want to talk about diaper consumerism start your own thread, it's not nice to rant on and on about how judgemental and elitist the Diaper mamas are.

FTR, Britishmum, I dont think your early posts were sweet and productive, you kept saying that everyone is judgemental and that the OP should be happy that so many moms are at LLL BFing. Obviously she *is*, as she said she was considering LLL Leadership.

A lot of posts were rude and mean and totally uncalled for.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
ChristinaB, you are confirming what I just concluded.

You say that this was never supposed to be a debate. Anywhere else on mdc, if you post something, you are not surprised if someone picks up on it and debates it. It's the way mdc is as a board - a discussion board.

It _wasn't_ intended to be a debate. A discussion.. yes. Did you ask Melanie/the OP if she intended this to be a debate?







No, it was a vent. I see this going no where so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I don't think that I hurt anyone's feelings. Have you read the posts I made? I do not think I could be any more respectful or polite than I have been. Several people have commented on that.

Maybe I shouldn't have singled _you_ out but yes, feelings were hurt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I don't mind one bit people doing that to me - that is one of the reasons I use this board, as long as they are polite about it. If I want to vent about something, and someone comes along and questions why it bothered me and gave me antoher perspective, I would not see that as rude or hurtful, but somethign I can think about and maybe learn from. And I consider that I have said nothing rude or hurtful here. Why would I be rude about cloth diapering mamas, when I cloth diaper myself, and why would I attack this forum, when I love the diapering forum too?!! Challenging someone's thinking is not the same as being rude or hurting feelings.

Again that is how YOU feel, you may like it but it may hurt others... not saying you said anything diretly to the OP (or maybe you did, I don't remember who said what at this point) but people did, bottom line. Not everyone reacts the same or thinks the same and even though all things are open to debate, sometimes I feel people don't take others feelings into consideration before opening their big mouths.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I will not continue to raise these points, although I think it is a shame as there were a lot of thought-provoking points made here that could have encouraged many of us - including me - to consider our principles and our reactions to others in the cd world and the world in general. It has been interesting that other threads have been started elsewhere on mdc in response to the general content of this one, and people are debating thoughtfully there. I am happy to go there to debate these sorts of issues, now that I understand that it is not wanted by the majority here.









Whaaaa? Ya know for a bunch of caring moms/people that reside at MDC, I sure find it odd to single out one forum or people in the "cd world" :LOL Correct me if I am wrong but most of these "types" of posts get moved to activism anyways so yes, this is a pretty non-debate forum by nature.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *radish*
No one says CD-mamas are excluded from debate. But if you want to talk about diaper consumerism start your own thread, it's not nice to rant on and on about how judgemental and elitist the Diaper mamas are.
.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## stacey31 (Jul 4, 2002)

WOW! I am way behind here but at the end of it all, I am wondering how CDing is a PRIVELAGE & how a few bucks for some loads of laundry each week is more costly than sposies.

Believe me, I have been B-R-O-K-E & CDing was always cheaper than sposies.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I will give up. But....

I didn't personallly even mention diaper consumerism. Not once. It is no issue for me. I love it that people are so keen on cds, I love supporting wahms myself - and do so with custom orders to wahms when I need diapers! I'm not into stockings or wool or ebay, but I love diapers and have absolutely no issue with consumerism in the diaper world (except for the disposable issue of course). So I certainly won't be starting a thread on the subject in activism or anywhere else!!

And although this is falling on deaf ears, I have said that I have concluded that in Diapering obviously a vent is supposed to stay just as that, and nobody is expected to question it. Fine. That's what I concluded. It is clearly different to most other mdc forums. To now be told that to conclude exactly what so many of you are telling me is just........









As for hurting feelings, I"m sorry, Radish, if you don't consider my posts polite. I don't aim for 'sweet' but I do aim for polite. I have never been called rude on mdc before, so this is a first for me, which is ironic as it is over cloth diapering, something that I deeply care about!

As for productive, you are right, my posts did not turn out to be productive, _because clearly most posters here did not want to question the thinking behind our (I mean, all our) responses to non-cd mothers, or the wider issues of why most people do not cd and have no idea of the advantages of doing so_

That is why it was not productive, not because I was making either rude or irrelevant points, but because the discussion was not wanted by most people here. As I said, causing offense yet again, because clearly Diapering is not the place for raising such points and a vent is just supposed to be that, period.

So, before I 'hurt' any more feelings by clarifying that I have concluded exactly what you are telling me I will be quiet.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Quote:

As for hurting feelings, I"m sorry, Radish, if you don't consider my posts polite. I don't aim for 'sweet' but I do aim for polite. I have never been called rude on mdc before, so this is a first for me, which is ironic as it is over cloth diapering, something that I deeply care about!
Oops! My last sentence was not directed at you. I didn't say you mentioned diaper consumerism. Your posts just went on and on about a whole bunch of seemingly irrelevant stuff...

About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. *Honestly, what was your objective?*

And again, no one is saying diapering is exempt from debate or discussion. Just that there is a time and a place for it.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *radish*

About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. *Honestly, what was your objective?*
.

I don't get it either. I didn't get any answers, just small rude comments throughout the post


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Wow, I'm surprised they all cded when they seemed so crunchy. Our moms are more mainstream and jarred food is o.k.







Besides me, only one other mom cds and she has twin girls! I love seeing their little fluffy butts through their pants.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"About LLL and how the OP should be happy that women are BF. You said people were judgemental and asked why there was so much "snobbery". You asked her to be more concerned about FF than CDs and that while you like CDing but didnt expect everyone to like it too. Honestly, what was your objective?"

Actually I did call anyone 'judgemental'. I mentioned that there is a _tone_ to this thread that I find judgemental. There is a difference. eg, I said:

"The judgemental tone, imo, came in with comments about people being hypocritical to talk of feeding organic baby food but not use cloth diapers, because of the chemicals used in disposables. Following that logic, anyone here who injects chemicals into their child along with vaccinations is even more 'hypocritical', or anyone who uses any form of chemical cleaners in their home, or anyone who is not perfect for that matter in any aspect of NFL."

But nobody seemed interested in taking that on board or discussing it.

I did not say that anyone was being a snob. I did ask 'why the snobbery?" in general, to all of us, not to anyone specific nor specifically to this thread. I was also referring to the previous threads where hundreds of posters jump on the bandwagon to slam terrible disposable users.

I actually do find it disturbing that someone can post, anywhere on mdc, that she likes to 'boast her superiority' and that most people saw nothing wrong in that. If that is an acceptable tone to most of you, I'm afraid it is not to me.

"And again, no one is saying diapering is exempt from debate or discussion. Just that there is a time and a place for it."

Yep, which is what I've said several times that I have concluded - that for the majority of posters on diapering, it is clearly not in this type of post. A vent obviously, here, requires cyber hugs and agreement, not questioning in any shape or form. Which is not what is common to other areas of mdc, but I see it is here, and it is clear now that this sort of thread is not the 'time and place' for questioning ourselves or others.

ChristinaB, I do not believe that I have made one 'rude comment'. I have been polite and tried to explain myself over and over again. To little avail, sadly. If you think that questioning thinking is rude, then we have a different definition of rude.

I'm sorry that you think you got no answers. I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to answer you all and discuss this rationally, but it seems that I am talking into a vaccuum here.

I didnt feel like I received many answers either. For example when I asked how this logic works - if those women at the LLL were 'hypocritical' for putting disposable diapers on their babies bums but organic food and breastmilk in their tums, which so many of you agreed with, does it not follow that every single parent who uses cloth but vaccinates their children and so injects all sorts of chemicals directly into their body, a hypocrite? Just an hypothetical question, and I was _questioning logic here_ not making a statement, before you decide to leap on me for being anti-vacc.........but not one person chose to answer this question. Because, as you say, there is a 'time and a place' for debate and questioning oneself or others, and clearly, this is not the place.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Honestly, what was your objective?"

I missed this question. I think that I have explained this over and over. But if you choose not to accept it, there is no more that I can do. I was responding to this thread the way I would to a similar thread on other areas of mdc, but clearly what is expected elswehre on mdc is not expected from most mamas on Diapering. We live and learn. I will not make this mistake again.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I will answer the question re: being hypocrytical. Yes, I think it is hypocritical to bash people for their non-natural practices. I do not practice NFL 100% - I try, but whose perfect?

That is why I don't bash anyone who isn't perfect either







Its been a few days since I read the OP so I won't even refer to it. I'm just speaking for your Q in general.

I do speak ill of certain practices - sposie using, non-recycling, jarred food etc....

However, I can't and don't speak ill of those who do those things - we can't all do it all. I try my best, but I have been known to occasionally throw away a plastic container with rotting food in it because I am just too overwhelmed with duties to wash it out! (please no flames, I do this _rarely_) The point I am trying to make is that I don't see any benefit to myself or anyone else in puttin gdown individual people, but feel it is important to speak the facts about certain practices.

I do think its alright to vent shamelessly on occasion







Although I feel its important to be as respectful as possible so that the atmosphere of this community is peaceful and one that people can learn from.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Quote:

For example when I asked how this logic works - if those women at the LLL were 'hypocritical' for putting disposable diapers on their babies bums but organic food and breastmilk in their tums, which so many of you agreed with, does it not follow that every single parent who uses cloth but vaccinates their children and so injects all sorts of chemicals directly into their body, a hypocrite?
I dont think it is the same. Most parents here have researched vax and *then* decided to non/delay/selective vax. If an NFL Mama researched CD and decided to not to, yes, I might find it a bit strange.

So, back to my question, what was your objective? Not how you normally post on the rest of mdc but to the OP in particular. I am listening, just not understanding.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Great post Holli!

That is why I said in my last post - we can generally "judge" certain practices as good or bad (for lack of a better words). However, people are human and every circumstance is unique.

That is why when I go to our local park and I see babies in strollers eating formula from a bottle (yes I saw her mix the bottle) I honestly didn't even think negatively of her in my own head. I like to advocate on a broad scale rather than judge individuals.

And now I am so off topic I didn't even mention diapering!


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

holli
heck no, it doesnt mean you are less of a AP parent!

i really think the OP was just saying it was surprising or ironic that the moms were going on about homemade babyfood and using sposies.









just like if you went to the co-op and people were going on and on about organic foods and pesticides and drinking coke out of a styrofoam cup!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Radish, I honestly was not asking you or anyone else to answer my question with the example about vaccs.

I am obviously not making myself understood at all. My point was that _none of the original questions I was asking were being answered_ and that _I have realised that in general, in Diapering, people do not wish to debate_ so therefore _my questions went unanswered_.

I am not looking for debate here now - I am trying to tell you, over and over, that _I realise now that you do not want to debate issues like this here._ which is _unlike the overall culture at mdc._

With that, I will return to other areas of mdc and will keep my posts in diapering to the point and not respond if someone is ranting, for example, about people who don't attain cloth diapering ideals. That is easy for me to do. I honestly was not coming here to cause trouble, but was anwering just as I would to a rant in any other area of mdc if I saw another point of view that I thought was worth raising.

I'm sure it is as frustrating to others to read my posts, that clearly don't fit with the desires of most diapering posters, as it is for me to post and feel that I am being misunderstood and misinterpreted over and over.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
Radish, I honestly was not asking you or anyone else to answer my question with the example about vaccs.

I am obviously not making myself understood at all. My point was that _none of the original questions I was asking were being answered_ and that _I have realised that in general, in Diapering, people do not wish to debate_ so therefore _my questions went unanswered_.

I am not looking for debate here now - I am trying to tell you, over and over, that _I realise now that you do not want to debate issues like this here._ which is _unlike the overall culture at mdc._

With that, I will return to other areas of mdc and will keep my posts in diapering to the point and not respond if someone is ranting, for example, about people who don't attain cloth diapering ideals. That is easy for me to do. I honestly was not coming here to cause trouble, but was anwering just as I would to a rant in any other area of mdc if I saw another point of view that I thought was worth raising.

I'm sure it is as frustrating to others to read my posts, that clearly don't fit with the desires of most diapering posters, as it is for me to post and feel that I am being misunderstood and misinterpreted over and over.










Well... excuse me your majesty







Maybe no one wants to answer you because you are way out of line and way off topic from the OP. Yes this forum is a part of MDC, does it mean it is going to be a carbon copy of allll the other forums? NO. Thanks for slapping a labels on us that frequent the CD forum














If you don't feel like you can debate, why are you still here trying to? No one is stepping up saying they agree with you re: the OP.
ps, you don't have to be rude direcetly to any one person to be rude, your last few posts did the job


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Okay, FTR, we *do* like to debate. Search Vegan or Wool or Sweatshop and see for yourself. You keep painting this picture of the diapering board being exempt from discussion or debate and it is really annoying.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *radish*
Okay, FTR, we *do* like to debate. Search Vegan or Wool or Sweatshop and see for yourself. You keep painting this picture of the diapering board being exempt from discussion or debate and it is really annoying.

I have no way with the words I want to say when I am PMS'ing :LOL I think Regina and I are on the same page!!!


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

and for debates sake, go back and read page 1 of this thread. The first 6 posts are from mamas simply saying what their experience at LLL was. One mama suggests going to an AP group to find CDd babes. *Then* Klothos chimes in with the difference between NFL and BF. Then VillageMama starts in with the rude posts.

Fast forward to page 2 and all hell breaks out. Actually your first post has a judgemental "tone":

Quote:

Celebrate the fact they are breastfeeding, don't deride them for not following your ideals in natural family living. Please.
*Again, what is your point in telling the OP to be happy those babies are BF and not not-CDd?*

Quote:

Aren't there far worse things you could do to your kid than use disposable diapers?
Of course there are, like spanking or CIO (IMO) but WTH does that have to do with anything?? Should I not post about neighbor not recycling b/c there are far worse things to worry about???

And lastly:

Quote:

For those of you who 'got it' all at once, that's great. But lighten up on those who don't get every aspect right in your eyes, for goodness sake.
Telling someone to "lighten up" is rude IMO.

Is *that* what you are used to out in the big bad (censored) MDC-world?? Post after post dissecting your opponent's posts...no thanks!!!


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

Oh yes, we are. Tiffany bowed out a long time ago and we shoulda joined her


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good post Regina

<bowing out>







:LOL


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Well... excuse me your majesty"

Umm, and _I'm_ rude. Hmm.

I have never been rude intentionally on mdc or in real life (or at least, not since I was about 15 anyway







.) If you take what I say as rude, then that is your issue. Anyone who knows me from other parts of the board will know that I just not like that. Never have been, never will. I don't think _anyone_ has ever accused me of being rude on mdc before, and the very occasional misunderstandings (maybe two or three) that have occurred during my years here have always been simply and easily put right. You are choosing to take exception to everything that I say.

_I have acknowledged that clearly most of you_ believe that a rant should be left just as a rant, and that you do not want people to put forward other views of a situation.

I did not say that diapering has to be a carbon copy of other mdc forums. I just told you that I am _realising that it is different._

I am not, and was never, trying to pick a fight, but it seems to me that one or two of you are. So I am out of here. I give up.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Is it just me, or does this sound like a broken record to anyone else???









ETA: I think we need a "beating a dead horse" smiley. :LOL


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Yep, that's why I just posted the same time as you to say I have given up.


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*

I have never been rude intentionally on mdc or in real life (or at least, not since I was about 15 anyway







.)

That was rude.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
If you take what I say as rude, then that is your issue. Anyone who knows me from other parts of the board will know that I just not like that. Never have been, never will. I don't think _anyone_ has ever accused me of being rude on mdc before, and the very occasional misunderstandings (maybe two or three) that have occurred during my years here have always been simply and easily put right. You are choosing to take exception to everything that I say.

I have no problem saying that I can be rude at times, everyone does it.. those who don't admit it, it's called denial.








There you go again... "my years here" THAT is why I said 'your majesty'.. you keep refering to how long you have been here, we don't care and it's not going to make all of us follow your lead, wrong or not









SIMPLY AND EASILY PUT RIGHT? Why cause you are always right?







I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing over this.. :LOL You're right Kellie, broken record! :LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I am not, and was never, trying to pick a fight, but it seems to me that one or two of you are. So I am out of here. I give up.









Steping up to say what's on my mind or trying to get back on track of the OP... is not picking a fight.







Bye


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## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

Okaaaaay.....um, yeah, I'm a newbie, and I've been lurking around trying to figure out if it's OK to post, since a lot of people seem to think that until you have a high post count you shouldn't post.....and I have to say, I'm kinda scared of some of y'all now.







I'm going to address the one comment I wanted to, and then I'm running for the hills! :LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhimsyTyme*
MAMAS, I do







love







you guys and all, but I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want a mama here in the physical/real life to share







: ing w/ too!!!!!!!







If I can't find 'em at a LLL meeting, where will I find 'em?!?!?!?!?









Convert 'em.







I didn't know anyone IRL who cloth diapered, so I "persuaded" (read: bullied) them into seeing things my way. The comment I heard most often was "But, it's so expensive to start out with" (it kinda is, when you consider the cost of getting enough dipes to not have to do laundry every five minutes and compare it to the $10 you'd shell out to go get another thing of 'sposies. Not saying it's money well spent, but...well, preaching to the choir), so I loaned out some diapers. I started with Fuzzi Bunz, and was content with those until a friend got me a Luke's Drawers. Now, I admit, I'm hooked.







Nothin' better than a cushy CD'd baby bottom!

And not to go on about educating the masses, but some people genuinely think prefolds and plastic pants when they think cloth diapering. They also think swishing in poopy toilet water. Well, cloth diapering has come a long way since then! Even my pediatrician hadn't ever seen a Fuzzi Bunz, or a Starbunz AIO before he met me and DD!

I'm sorry you didn't find a kindred CDing spirit at your LLL meeting. I hope you find another group that has some squooshie tushies in it!

Sorry. I don't have too many posts here at MDC. Hope I didn't offend. :ignore


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

I remember posting here last winter when I just had a dozen or so posts, and I didn't even bother to introduce myself, just jumped right inand started replying to posts! It's totally fine (I hope!







) Just jump right in and give your opinions as you feel like it! I have also been spreading the American-WAHM-made diapering joy around here in Finland where even the CDing mamas have never imagined cloth like this. They love it but so far they've just bought a few from me and haven't actually placed orders from the US.







-they really should, they'd like it more than their flats that they don't even snappi/pin and just wrap loosely around baby before putting a velcro wrap on--talk about poop on the cover *every time!*.... I tried to show a better way to fold a flat to create gussets, and the beauty of a snappi once, but I usually get a bad attitude about that.... (won't the snappi come off and stab the baby??) and they think my addiction to cloth is ludicrous. *shrug*







Oh well, I have ya'll here online....better than CDing truly alone!


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