# Do you curse around your child?



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This is a really complex issue for me. I do occasionally let something slip out if I've dropped something or whatever, but I apologize and it is very much an accident. I do not want to. My husband used to swear like crazy but he stopped when we had kids because he also didn't want to do it around the kids and have them pick it up.

Here's the complex part. Different parents seem to have totally different ideas about what is inappropriate as far as language goes. Like I am not bothered by the word "ass" particularly. It's a body part, and not that big of an issue as far as language goes. But, OTOH, sexist language like "slut" or the B word I can't stand and would never use around my kids. And of course I would never tolerate any language that was racist or homophobic or anything along those lines.

I've known parents who banned words like "hate" in their houses, and also who don't allow words like "drat" and "gosh" because they're stand-ins for curse words. I have no problem with the word "hate," although I do redirect my kids to other language when it's used about people. "Hate is a strong feeling to have for a person. Maybe you just don't get along with her?"

We aren't religious people, however, I teach my kids not to use religious curse words because I feel like it's more respectful around religious people to not use that language. I am not concerned about "gosh" or "drat" though.

So I think this is a complex issue and I'm really curious about where other people stand on it.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I am still trying to tackle the not saying really bad words. I'll let you know how I feel about the others once I got that down


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Yeah, like a sailor, I'd say. But I have tried tamping it down, and I do try to put a halt to the blaspheming, and I don't tolerate the racist & sexist ones. My kids, of course, now realize what the "worst" words are to me, and they will call each other those names when they are really angry, because if that's the worst word in the world, they want to express the depth of emotion they feel for their sister by using that. If I hear it, I have a serious talk with them, but I've only heard it once.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

I swear a bit around the kids, I try to keep it to "damn" and "hell". I only use them in anger around the kids. Once my son told me he was wearing his "damn pants" and I explained to him that "damn" is a word you use when you're very very angry. I don't feel like forbidding him to use it, but I want my kids to understand the appropriate times to swear if they feel like it. Sometimes a swear is the perfect way to describe how you're feeling.

Case in point (IMO), a few months ago my daughter (3) was stomping around in a rage because of something her brother (5) did to her. She was growling and sighing and kept saying, "I so frustrated! I so frustrated at you, BuggaBoo!" But that wasn't really getting to the root of her intense feelings, so she went up to him and said, "I pissed off at you!" And, you know, she was. And he apologized for what he did. And she was able to calm down. And to me that's an entirely appropriate way to swear.


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## alaskanmomma (May 25, 2011)

I try to use stand in cuss words, I have a mouth on me. However, I admit harping on my 4 year old when she uses filler words. I don't do the word hate, much rather hear fuck than hate come out of their mouths..I also don't allow God used in vain, we aren't religious, but I don't like it and find it disrespectful.

I grew up in a home where at 17 I said damn in front of my dad and got grounded for a week -.- I'd never be that extreme, probably wouldn't punish beyond a "don't say that".


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## alaskanmomma (May 25, 2011)

I did have an instance where my dd was 3.5 and she walked in the house before I did.. The dog didn't get put in her cage before we left and had pooped on the floor... I hear from the top of her lungs "Mommmmmmmmmmm, the dog shit all over the carpet!" It was very hard to not laugh much less correct her.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes. One of my many failings as a parent.

Oddly enough, my kids don't like it and they don't swear often at all, other than the occasional "damn" or "hell". Since we aren't particularly religious, that doesn't seem to be too significant.


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## Matt's Mom in MT (Apr 18, 2003)

Yes, I swear in front of my kids. I've tried not to, but I have a mouth like a trucker. Most of the time they are pretty good about not repeating words. DS2 got into trouble in preschool for telling another kid that he was pissing DS off. I figure that they are going to curse eventually so they may as well learn from the best.


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## GISDiva (Jul 13, 2007)

I try not to. It's more that I don't want to get DS into the habit around other people than me attaching much meaning to the actual word itself (racism and sexism aside, that's another category). I'd be super embarrassed if he started saying a curse word at school or something when it was me he learned it from! I do enjoy the creative use of a curse word though, I will admit...

DH is the one that taught him the "f" word by accident though, even though he seems to hold me to a higher standard, before and since then.


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## mamapigeon (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes, though I've been trying to stop. I'm a nervous driver and things slip out when I can't merge during rush hour or when someone cuts me off. I really DO need to stop because DS picked up dumba** from me and occasionally it pops out of his tiny mouth... It'll be soooo much fun when he says it in public.


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## katie9143 (Oct 3, 2006)

I swear in front of but never at my child. Consequently, I feel like she knows what are "Adult" words and what are kid words. Her teacher, who knows me well, always seems surprised but admits that Amelia is one of the few in her class that has never "popped off"...go figure. I have had this convo with many adults (some parents and some not) and we all generally agree from experience that there really is very little if any correlation between how much you swear and how much you did or did not hear adults swearing in your family growing up....so ya...if she doesnt hear it from me she will surely hear it on the school bus!


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## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

We swear in front of the children. What words are and aren't "cursing" is so arbitrary, I don't see how any particular small set should be off-limits.

We don't use ableist, sexist, racist, or other slurs. That's different.

I do encourage the children to use absurd curses when possible-- we use a lot of Shakespearean curses (thou spotty cur, thou carbuncle, thou wretched insolent knave, etc.) and a lot of supervillian/mad scientist curses (curse you, ironic timing of the universe!, etc.). But that's less because I dislike the Lenny Bruce set and more because I think it's fun to play with language that way. It helps redirect energies into creative outlets, usually quickly leads to giggling, and doesn't hurt our vocabularies, either.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

My rule so far - might change as DS is 2.5 and it isn't really an issue yet - is that hurtful language is forbidden, but I'm neutral on standard curse words.

For example - calling someone a stupid-head would be unacceptable. Dropping something and saying, "Oh, shit!" would be fine. DS does actually occasionally say, "shit" when he drops something, and it isn't something I feel like I need to stop him from saying. Derogatory terms that happen to also be curse words would be off-limits because they are derogatory, not because they are a curse word.

A caveat - curse words are hurtful to some people, my MIL being one of them. Some people don't like to hear it, and we need to be respectful of that.


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

I swear around DS and allow him to say swear words ( he rarely does) but explain that it's a word he's only allowed to say at home with me and DH and saying it at school or at a friend's house could get him in trouble. No sexist words (bitch, slut, whore, etc.) will ever be tolerated...even when he's thirty, and obviously no racist or homophobic words either. He's discouraged from saying " stupid" and hasn't started saying "hate" yet but I'll probably explain to him what a strong word it is when he does. I know it's controversial to let a 5 yr old swear at home but frankly I don't want to lose credibility with him by making a big deal out of something that I just don't feel is important. I live in a state (Utah) where the majority of people say things like, "Shiz" and "fricken" and "oh my heck" UGH I'd rather hear the real words, especially since the same intention is there either way.


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## Sphinxy (Oct 4, 2012)

My dad swore around us lots growing up. It's part of his "at-home" vocabulary and my sister and I always knew that it wasn't appropriate in public. I'm guessing he didn't do it as much or at all when we were really little and couldn't understand those distinctions, but from very early on in my memory I remember knowing that curse words were generally taboo and not for kids to say, but that adults could use them in private or familial settings if they wanted to and was it ok. It was just part of my dad's authentic self. Mom swore some, not nearly as much, but not for any particular reason other than it just wasn't her personality. I will add, like other posters, I'm really only talking about those "traditional" curse words, and not anything religious, racial, or homophobic in nature. That was always strictly forbidden.

My DW on the other hand grew up in a house where not only would cursing get her mouth rinsed out with soap, she couldn't even say "darn", "heck", "lousy", "that stinks", etc.

These days DW and I both curse an average amount, in private or close relationships, maybe me a little above average. I observe the general rule of not cursing in public, around strangers or people I don't know well. We also specifically try not to curse when we argue with each other out of respect and to foster a resolution. When the little one arrives we'll probably do what I assume my parents did, hold off on the cursing in their presence as much as possible until they are old enough to understand the appropriate time and place for such things.


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## mokey4 (Nov 3, 2008)

I've never had much of a potty mouth, but I do use curse words on occasion, and I haven't felt any need to hold myself back in front of my children. I use them so rarely. Sometimes when I'm hurt/angry, sometimes just to add emphasis to whatever I'm saying (usually when I'm complaining to DH about something at work, lol). I don't use the really really bad derogatory ones, and I never yell a curse word at a person (only at objects). And I've only ever heard my 4 year old use curse words in rare, but completely appropriate circumstances. One time she was playing with her baby doll and she dropped her on the floor and yelled "OH FUCK!" It was the funniest thing ever, but I was careful not to react because I don't want my kid thinking all she needs to do to get a laugh is to drop an f-bomb. But really I think I have heard her curse maybe twice in the last 6 months, so I don't think we have a problem. I'm more concerned about her use of "poopyhead" and "la la la la la you can't get me" (which she uses to get kids to chase her and then she freaks out and gets scared). Both things she learned at school, not from me (and poopyhead she learned from the rabbi's 3 year old daughter, much to the rabbi's chagrain).

I don't think I have ever heard my 2 year old use a curse word, and the girl is extremely verbal- she speaks clearly in full sentences and has a 3,000 word vocabulary (or something like that, I have no idea I just made that number up).


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## kimberlychapman (Jul 26, 2006)

Fuck yeah I do. XD

In our household, words are just words and intent is what matters. I don't care if my kid stubs her toe and says, "Shit!" but if she ever calls another kid a "poopyhead" and means it, then she's in trouble.

And you know what? She's seven now and never swears. She's more likely to hurl a spell name from Harry Potter at you in fury, or just outright growl. The kids she knows who swear the most are the kids with the strictest parents about it. The one boy in her class whom she tells me swears all through recess is the one with the mom most likely to flip out over it. South Park nailed it.

Her school has rules (some ridiculous: we still have not determined what is an acceptable word to refer to the thing on which the children sit because apparently even "bum" and "bottom" aren't acceptable to some teachers) and we respect that other families have different sensitivities so we do have a rule about not swearing outside the house. Well, for her. If I stopped swearing it'd be like capping a pressure cooker and I wouldn't be able to maintain my pacifism for long.

And anyway, she's a citizen of the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. And we live in Texas. Good luck on finding a word for any bodily function that isn't going to offend someone somewhere in her life!


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## lilmamita (Mar 31, 2013)

Ooooffff. My partner and I have very dirty mouths....and in two languages to boot. So I don't know what we will do when the little one comes along. I can't imagine that either of us will be able to clean up our language too much, particularly early on when we will feel like he can't understand us. I wasn't too worried about this until my cousin and her 2 year old came to visit and he wouldn't stop saying bitch. The worst was when he called a waitress bitch after she had been so nice and sweet to him. We don't say bitch, but there are plenty of other curse words we say that our son may repeat.

In the country we live in curse words are said by everyone including your grandma, but everyone seems to know there are certain situations they are inappropriate in. I wonder if there is a way to somehow teach that you just use different language depending on the situation.


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## arlosmama (Apr 19, 2010)

Once I drove over the curb whilst turning a turning a corner, and my then two year old shouts out, "Mom! What dd you f***ing do?!" We still have a good laugh about it. We swear in front of him, and he rarely uses the words himself. Life's too short to worry about being perfect.


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## ChooChoo (Nov 14, 2009)

The way I see it, words are just words. It's the way you use them that matters. I would rather my child say, "What the f#ck?" in general than to ever hear him say "You're ugly" to someone. I don't mind swearing as long as it is not negatively directed toward someone. Words should never be used to hurt someone, regardless of the word.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I rarely curse. Dh does sometimes... I discourage ds from using curse words or using God as an exclamation because it does offend people. When he was young, I explained that if he used those sorts of words at the playground, the other moms might not want him to play with their kids. He did want to play with every kid he met so it was important for him to not shock and alienate them.

I really think people do kids a disservice by using words in front of them when they are too young to understand the ramifications of their repeating them. If you only hang out with a very homogeneous group of like minded people, you can get away with it. But if your child goes to preschool, you are setting them up to get punished. And I think that's a bit mean to put young kids in that situation.

I've had kids be shocked and call it cursing when we say darn. I explain that darn means to mend a hole so that's what we say when there is a problem that needs mending;-) I don't mind substitute curse words in the least and think it is quite good enough that we don't actually curse.

Ds is a tween and has a full vocabulary of curse words. I don't care if he uses the occasional one if there aren't other people around (especially younger cousins who look up to him.) But I remind him he has other, more accurate, word choices. I don't want him being one of those people whose vocabulary has the f word interjected every other word. Nothing sounds stupider to me.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am not the curser. i do occasionally. but ex is one.

i have never 'watched' my tongue around dd.

she swore when she was little for the fun of it.

she rarely swears now.

like pp i worked more on her intent than actual words.


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## LRMamaS (Nov 10, 2011)

How do you handle this topic with other parents? The anti and pro cursing camps are two very disparate parenting choices--once the kids pick up the words, they're bound to repeat them in front of their friends. And for someone who's very anti, there's a perception of loss of innocence that's hard to reconcile. But it's so hard to bring something like this up--do you, or do you just suck it up and handle it with your own kids?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> -once the kids pick up the words, they're bound to repeat them in front of their friends.


not necessarily. dd and her best friend cursed around our family but not in public. for some reason they figured out it was not a nice thing to do in public but it was fun doing it around mommies. dd at 3 always asked us what rhymed with luck and she'd get mad if we said the word.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that intent matters more than specific words, but I do think that people can be stereotyped and have negative social consequences if it becomes a steady and habitual part of their vocabulary. I say that and at the same time I have friends who swear a lot and it doesn't bother me or cause me to think negatively about them. However I know that there are areas in life where you will be more respected with a different vocabulary. Honestly, I'm wondering if I have to check myself on this and consider if I'm a bit snobbish in this area. I will do a bit of self reflection on this issue.


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## BibaDiva73 (Nov 17, 2005)

Ds swears all the time through regular conversation and at the kids. The 7 yr old swears a lot-- called me a bitch and called his 9 yr old brother a dickhead. I don't use words like that around them, but she grew up in a different culture and country-- the UK, where it was normal to use course language if you were from a working class background. I came from a working class background too, but we were deeply conservative and religious. I consider it disrespectful if your child curses at you.


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## BibaDiva73 (Nov 17, 2005)

Ds swears all the time through regular conversation and at the kids. The 7 yr old swears a lot-- called me a bitch and called his 9 yr old brother a dickhead. I don't use words like that around them, but she grew up in a different culture and country-- the UK, where it was normal to use course language if you were from a working class background. I came from a working class background too, but we were deeply conservative and religious. I consider it disrespectful if your child curses at you. Even now ds and his siblings use swear words to their mother, but I guess she's used to it. My mother would not tolerate it at all...


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I agree that intent matters more than specific words, but I do think that people can be stereotyped and have negative social consequences if it becomes a steady and habitual part of their vocabulary.


As a child i was more focused on that dd understood the impact of hurtful words. swearing didnt matter. she swore appropriately but did not swear at people.

i think there's classiness around swearing too. some swear words are appropriate, and some not.

its one thing to say shit or fuck when one hammered ones thumb or dropped something, but to call another person names - whether you are 4 or 40 is not ok in my books. to call someone a mother f****** is not something dd grew up hearing.

i guess we are talking about two things here. swearing and name calling. swearing is ok (i can see in some stiff upper lip social situation where even that is inappropriate, but i havent seen any social class that doesnt do it) name calling at any age is not.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I swear a lot, but I try not to do it in front of the kids. I don't really swear in anger -- I mostly swear when I'm hanging out with friends, like when DH and I are playing cards with another couple the talk can get pretty raunchy. But it's all in fun.


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## cadybh (Jul 12, 2011)

We don't, no. I have slipped exactly once, when I was driving through a snowstorm and we lost traction and skidded for about 20 feet (I said "Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit!" and DS sweetly asked, "What's the matter, Mama?") - but I feel completely justified, as I was pretty sure we were going to crash into somebody or some thing and I had 3-y-o DS in the car plus was about 6 months pregnant at the time... not a great time for an accident.

DH and I differ on the "other" words, but I think he's coming around. I really don't want to encourage words like "that sucks" or "I screwed that up" or "shut up" in my house. My mother raised us not to speak that way and ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY washed our mouths out with soap when we slipped. Blech. I do not want us to be that extreme, but at the same time we can all learn and practice expressing our emotions while still being polite, or else we're free to go to a room by ourselves and just let off steam.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Yes, I swear in front of the kids. I censor myself a little bit in the interest of letting a few bland words get through, but my children have a full vocabulary, and know how to use it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChooChoo*
> 
> The way I see it, words are just words. It's the way you use them that matters. I would rather my child say, "What the f#ck?" in general than to ever hear him say "You're ugly" to someone. I don't mind swearing as long as it is not negatively directed toward someone. Words should never be used to hurt someone, regardless of the word.










And because I'm more concerned with how the word is used than with which word it is, the longest lecture dd has ever gotten for inappropriate word use was about the word "starving".

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> How do you handle this topic with other parents? The anti and pro cursing camps are two very disparate parenting choices--once the kids pick up the words, they're bound to repeat them in front of their friends. And for someone who's very anti, there's a perception of loss of innocence that's hard to reconcile. But it's so hard to bring something like this up--do you, or do you just suck it up and handle it with your own kids?


I usually hang out with families that I have a thing or two in common with, so this hasn't come up much. The kids are aware that some people are offended by profanity, especially the use of religious words, so they do try to watch what they say in certain groups.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I agree that intent matters more than specific words, but I do think that people can be stereotyped and have negative social consequences if it becomes a steady and habitual part of their vocabulary. I say that and at the same time I have friends who swear a lot and it doesn't bother me or cause me to think negatively about them. However I know that there are areas in life where you will be more respected with a different vocabulary. Honestly, I'm wondering if I have to check myself on this and consider if I'm a bit snobbish in this area. I will do a bit of self reflection on this issue.


I think a notable lack of swearing can lead to negative first impressions just as easily as excessive swearing can. I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that a little swearing makes a person seem more trustworthy.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope*
> 
> We swear in front of the children. What words are and aren't "cursing" is so arbitrary, I don't see how any particular small set should be off-limits.
> 
> ...


I have to start doing the Shakespearean curses thing. Shakespeare is a minor obsession among dd's friends anyways, so it could easily catch on.


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## boater (Oct 19, 2008)

post deleted


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## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

I realized I had to pull it in a bit when DD (now 4yo) started repeating them back to us, and saw that I didn't enjoy being on the receiving end.

She did need a little coaching but so far she's keeping it to moments of intense anger or frustration, and we're better about it too. We were a little loose before. On the other hand, the words have been de-mystified now, so they carry less taboo which seems to lesson the motivation to use them.

I do try to curb the use of "God" while swearing, out of respect for others. That one's harder for me though, I seem to use it a lot, and guess what- it was one I got in serious trouble for when growing up, so there is definitely some truth to the fact that if you suppress something it comes out in droves later!

I'm trying to use "rats" and "nuts" more but they just don't have the punch...They're better for milder disappointments though. "Freakin"" is helpful too.

I totally agree with pp's that name-calling is different and not okay.

I think I live in a modest town because so far I haven't run into other parents who swear excessively when both the children and myself are around, or who have tried to silence me (I seem to be the one most-likely-to-swear). I'm also curious to hear if anyone else has encountered this and what they did.


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## TizTaz5 (Jul 14, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alaskanmomma*
> 
> I did have an instance where my dd was 3.5 and she walked in the house before I did.. The dog didn't get put in her cage before we left and had pooped on the floor... I hear from the top of her lungs "Mommmmmmmmmmm, the dog shit all over the carpet!" It was very hard to not laugh much less correct her.


I literally laughed out loud when I read this, Alaskanmoma. I could just picture a little girl yelling this out for everyone to hear and not caring that they did. Too funny!


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## junipersmama (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't swear around my daughter, but my husband occasionally does (if he is upset by something). He thinks that it is ok as long as the children know it is only appropriate at home and not at school, in public etc. That is how he was raised. I would rather not have swearing at all, just to make it easier. Then it isn't something you have to change in public, you just don't do it. I wouldn't punish my daughter if she said a curse word though, just talk with her about why she felt the need to say it.


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## Lethe44 (Mar 30, 2009)

I occasionally curse around my kids, but I'm careful not to most of the time. Sometimes I have slips when I get mad or am not thinking, but I always tell them that it was a rude thing for me to say and apologize to them. But despite being careful, my son learned how to say "F*** It" from a friend at school. He came home saying it one day, and it took a week to get him to stop. I didn't want to blow it out of proportion, because he's the type of kid that will do things just to get a rise out of people, but he eventually came to the understanding that it isn't something he's supposed to say. Now every time my husband or I have a slip-up, he's the first to point it out and say, "ooooh you said a bad word."


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

No never. I find children swearing pretty horrifying actually.

I was raised in a religous home and learned at a really early age what was acceptable in different groups and how to control my mouth. Swearing won't ever be allowed in our home mostly because I think of it as a good exercise in self-control.I am sure the kids will be swearing plenty with their friends and that is fine. In our home, in school, at work, or sports? No.

I'd actually rank "hate" and "stupid" right up there. The kids aren't allowed to say either. DS came home from K with a few "gods" and those went out the door too. I am not religous at all.

We don't use the term "bad." Words aren't bad. The meaning and emotion behind them might be fierce and more often than not, it is just habit. We use the term "rude" to describe words we don't use as well as behaviors that are unkind. There is always another way to express yourself.


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## cynthiamoon (Nov 29, 2009)

My kid is still just a fetus, but I know what I think about cursing in general, and I hope I am able to teach it to her.

Basically, I just have a problem with the effects of the words, and wether another way of expressing something is more effective.

For example, I kind of get why parents don't like "dang" and "fudge" etc., and it's not just because they are stand-ins for curse words. IMO, there's a whole class of expressions that just really fail at being the right thing to say. At least, if you're actually trying to say anything. For example, let's say this person, whose been getting on your nerves all day does *that thing* one more time, and they really meant it. You can shout out either: "You're such a fuckhead!" or "What is wrong with you? Stop it!"

What do you choose? It depends on the situation, but in most cases, unless this is someone you really just wanna pick a fight with, the second one is more likely to get your frustration and disdain across without completely shutting down the situation like calling them a fuckhead might. But maybe this is a friend, and fuckhead is just your special way of saying "You're being silly!" In that case, why not use your little in-group slang to say things like "Going out with all my bitches!" on a Friday night to just mean whatever your bitches want it to mean?

As for me, I don't curse much at all unless I've been around people who curse casually all day. It just rubs off I guess.

But I would never attack someone by calling them a cunt or an asshole no matter who I've been around. That just crosses the line, I think, because the intended effect is very cruel. And I don't want to go there.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

Quote:


> You can shout out either: "You're such a fuckhead!" or "What is wrong with you? Stop it!"
> 
> What do you choose? It depends on the situation, but in most cases, unless this is someone you really just wanna pick a fight with, the second one is more likely to get your frustration and disdain across without completely shutting down the situation like calling them a fuckhead might.


Good point. There is a lot of research that suggests lack of vocabulary is one reason why disadvantaged children have difficulties in school/aggression. There is a huge difference to reacting to a situation and expressing your needs and if you don't have the vocabulary to express yourself and the experience to handle stressful situations without resorting to swearing or violent words or action you can't prosper in a classroom.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I curse a lot, and a lot of it is around my kids. It's not something I worry about.

My parents didn't swear around us. A few of their friends did, but not much, and my parents didn't encourage it even a little bit. My siblings and I all curse a lot. I think there are a lot of factors involved in whether a kid swears or not. In my case, as I approached my teens, life sucked (total maladjustment to my peer group, as a shrink put it, plus my parents were having issues) and I was really angry a lot of the time, largely due to severe PMS. I also needed to find a way to talk to other kids that didn't result in accusations of snottiness over my "big words". Swearing worked. For many years after that, it was a common way to speak in my peer group, as well. Swearing's just not a big deal in my world.

I *don't* swear at my kids.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think it reflects poorly on me that my first thought was "hell yeah!"









(I need to grow up.)

Anyway, I tried not to swear in front of my children when they were small, but occasional said something like "oh shit!" I did teach them the difference between words that are considered swear words and words that aren't, and discouraged them from making it a habit to use swear words, though I never made a big deal about the occasional slip. (how could I? I would have been such a hypocrite)

I feel I did an OK job because for several years my kids thought the phrase "the F word" referred to the word "fat" because they knew they they should never call another person fat, but were blissfully unaware of any worse words beginning with F. When one of my DD's was 10, she was talking about the school bus and commented that "swear words are words that adults and kids both use, but never in front of each."

One day after school, one of my DDs got in the car and announced that "all boys are a$$holes." Rather than commenting on her choice of words, I just asked what happened and talked her through her day. Sometimes, the best word to express one's self isn't one that is socially approved, but it really communicates where you are and how you feel better than any nice words could.

My kids are teens now. For awhile, I talked to them about exactly what different words mean and how "bad" they are considered, but Urban Dictionary has sadly made that parenting task obsolete.

I think swear words work better if they are seldom used. Its really the overuse of swear words that I'm opposed to. If we seldom use them, then we have something special to pull out when we are really upset. If my kids use a swear word out of laziness at thinking about a more precise word to express themselves, I tease them about and we think up (or look up) more accurate terms. However, if they are expressing genuine emotion, I just meet them exactly where they are.


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## cadybh (Jul 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> When one of my DD's was 10, she was talking about the school bus and commented that "swear words are words that adults and kids both use, but never in front of each."


That is hilarious and so true!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I think it reflects poorly on me that my first thought was "hell yeah!"
> 
> ...


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I am a swearer. I could help it but I like the extra level of meaning that one word adds to a situation than a more socially acceptable word might. One of my girls had us in stitches when she was a toddler when she pulled all the books off the two bookshelves, stood back to look at the mess then slapped her thighs and said "F***'s sake!" Indeed. It took a while to get them all back where they had been!


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## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

It depends on the age of the child, I wouldn't like to see a 2 year old using words like "hate" either but at 4 or 5 and up, it's fine if they at least use it properly.

I'm more annoyed when people curse because they don't know any other adjectives. Everything is either "gay" or "sh!t". There is a time and a place for all words, but if they're overused, they're not very interesting to listen to.

I think it's important to teach kids to say what they mean and mean what they say... don't just talk and swear senselessly.


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## LRMamaS (Nov 10, 2011)

But seriously everyone, how do you handle this with friends who have the opposing philosophy?


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## pinklucy (Jul 8, 2005)

I was raised in a home without swearing and felt I would like the same environment for my kids. However, the partner I was with for the first 5 or so years of my son's life swore a lot. I wasn't very comfortable with it, but I couldn't really stop her and she had a different opinion about swearing in front of children. I mellowed out a little, just from being around more swearing and seeing that the sky hadn't fallen in. My next partner was very strict about swearing and picked up on any swear word said in front of the children or by them. My son gleefully picked up her strictness and now him and his cousin are the ones who shout 'language!' at me if I ever say the slightest thing. I've actually ended up saying to them 'I'm an adult, and if I want to swear in my own home in an appropriate situation then I will!" which is not something I ever imagined I'd say to a child! lol

I think they use it as a gauge of my mood. If I'm becoming very frustrated and getting angry then a 'please will you do what I asked' can turn into 'stop taking the piss!' At that point, they know I'm not coping so well and can choose to take evasive action!


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## cynthiamoon (Nov 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> But seriously everyone, how do you handle this with friends who have the opposing philosophy?


Again, can't speak for my fetus yet, but personally, I tone my language down to suit the most conservative person around whenever I am aware of it. I would teach my daughter to do the same, knowing full-well that this may be confusing and hard to do at first, and thus result in some embarassment. I know some people think it's wrong to change your behavior to suit others, but I just think it's polite. I'd also rather she know to err on the side of caution with salty language and to understand why it can lead to being judged as uneducated/crass/etc. if you can't control your language.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> But seriously everyone, how do you handle this with friends who have the opposing philosophy?


What kind of friends are we talking about? Do they also have children? Is the concern about your children saying words that their children are not allowed to say? Because if there's no direct conflict like that, I think the best way to deal with it is simply not to talk about it.

To answer the original post, yes, I use words freely around my son. If they are needed, I use really juicy Anglo-Saxon words like fuck and shit and cock. There is a place for them, and that's the wonderful, delightful thing about English.The language has many words that express the same meaning, but each synonym has its own connotation and place. I hope my son learns as many words as possible because knowledge--including knowledge of vocabulary--is power. The important thing I have to teach him is diction, the art of choosing the right word with the right connotation for the right situation. He's only 1 right now so we'll see how it goes, but I suspect diction has a learning curve as much as anything else. But I wouldn't dream of limiting his word choice. Words are free.

However, the OP talked mainly about bigoted or hurtful language. That's a different matter, and I don't consider it necessarily related to swearing. Cruelty is not allowed in our house, and saying bigoted things will get you in a LOT of trouble. There are racial slurs or other discriminatory words one could use, like, say, ****** or ******. But if my son said a word like that, he wouldn't be in trouble for swearing, he'd be in trouble for being a jerk. It's possible to be an even bigger jerk saying perfectly innocuous words. My father's family used to be called frogs by their neighbours because they were French. A delightful amphibian, but in that case, a hurtful racial slur. Also, without swearing, you can easily say really appalling things like, "I wouldn't want a gay man to watch my children because I don't want my kids to learn about homosexuality," or "Watch out for that Muslim woman in the grocery store; she might have a bomb strapped to her chest." Another dad was talking to my husband about children's programming once and said, "But the trouble with Dora is that our sons might watch it and then want to marry Mexican women when they grow up."







Did he swear? No. Was he disgusting? Yes.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that swearing gets a bad rap, and we shouldn't be worrying so much about word choice and we SHOULD be worrying about teaching our children to be respectful, kind, and tolerant.


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## LRMamaS (Nov 10, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> What kind of friends are we talking about? Do they also have children? Is the concern about your children saying words that their children are not allowed to say? Because if there's no direct conflict like that, I think the best way to deal with it is simply not to talk about it.


It's actually the other way around. We are very strict about the use of salty language around our kids. This other couple's kids are the same age as ours. And the problem is exactly that we are worried about the other kids swearing in front of ours. So far (to our knowledge) it hasn't happened, but we are aware that their kids are using language we would not want our kids to hear for several more years. But they are good friends, and our kids are good friends, so it's complicated. I'm sure this is just the first of many tricky situations we will find ourselves in amidst other parents, but being a newbie I don't really know the best way to handle it (without introducing conflict into our relationship with the other parents). Most of the responses on here have been from parents who allow swearing, so I'm curious to know how you would prefer it be handled with you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> It's actually the other way around. We are very strict about the use of salty language around our kids. This other couple's kids are the same age as ours. And the problem is exactly that we are worried about the other kids swearing in front of ours. So far (to our knowledge) it hasn't happened, but we are aware that their kids are using language we would not want our kids to hear for several more years. But they are good friends, and our kids are good friends, so it's complicated. I'm sure this is just the first of many tricky situations we will find ourselves in amidst other parents, but being a newbie I don't really know the best way to handle it (without introducing conflict into our relationship with the other parents). Most of the responses on here have been from parents who allow swearing, so I'm curious to know how you would prefer it be handled with you.


Personally, I'd prefer that it be handled the same way I prefer many other conflicts (playground rules, dietary rules, etc.) are handled. I'm raising my kids. You're raising your kids. I don't allow my kids to swear when they're little (the only one who's ever really shown any inclination to do so is ds2, and that's because the "big boys" in our complex swear, so he thinks it makes him cool). However, people do swear, and my kids will hear it, even if I didn't do it. In your case, I'd decide whether these people were worth continuing to be friends with, or if this is a deal breaker. If it's not a deal breaker, then...there's really nothing to handle, imo. You talk to your kids about your values around language, and they'll talk to their kids about their values around language.

You know...we have multiple neighbours who give their kids regular snacks of candy, freezies, etc. (daily, or multiple times per day, in some cases). My children aren't allowed to eat that kind of food very often. So, if they're offered something by a neighbourhood friend, they have to come and ask me if it's okay to accept. My job is to apply my rules to my kids. It's not my job to tell R's parents that they can't/shouldn't let their son eat freezies six times a day, just because it would be easier for me if R wasn't offering them to my kids all the time. I think this applies to a lot of aspects of childrearing.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> It's actually the other way around. We are very strict about the use of salty language around our kids. This other couple's kids are the same age as ours. And the problem is exactly that we are worried about the other kids swearing in front of ours. So far (to our knowledge) it hasn't happened, but we are aware that their kids are using language we would not want our kids to hear for several more years. But they are good friends, and our kids are good friends, so it's complicated. I'm sure this is just the first of many tricky situations we will find ourselves in amidst other parents, but being a newbie I don't really know the best way to handle it (without introducing conflict into our relationship with the other parents). Most of the responses on here have been from parents who allow swearing, so I'm curious to know how you would prefer it be handled with you.


I think its important to help kids learn that families come in all sorts and hold all sorts of values. "Timmy can say that word in his family, but in our family i'd prefer you use X instead" or something like that. If you want to maintain your friendship maybe not really hang any moral value on your choice (saying "timmy's mommy doesnt care if he's a little pottymouth but i want you to sound educated so no cussing allowed!" probably wouldnt endear you to your friend!  ) My oldest son got "scolded" once when he was about ten by another child in our homeschool group because he used the word "god" (as in "God, this game is so hard!") Personally i felt it was more "unchristian" to make my son feel like crap/embarrassed (because all the other kids suddenly were like "yeah! thats against god!!! dont say that!!!") than whatever harm supposedly would have come to the little christian boy for hearing it. It bothers me more seeing kids take a holier-than-thou attitude when a friend makes a different choice. Doesnt have to be about language...a friend's son went on and on about how horrible plastic toys were and how they are made in china and full of toxins, and wanted to know if our juice was organic blah blah...it just made him look really judgemental.

Hopefully if your friends know you dont like cussing they will tone it down in your presence and hopefully you'll lighten up a bit in theirs.  And everyone can get along....


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah I have to agree that different families should be able to have the rule they want. This is true for words like "hate" too, and I have an example. My daughter hates a certain food, and said she did when discussion about that food came up, and a little girl said, "She said hate! That's a bad word! She shouldn't say that!" And then the little girl's mother gave me a lecture about the word "hate." I don't honestly care what they think about the word "hate" and I didn't want a lecture about it. I just said, "I'm fine with her saying 'hate' so long as she doesn't say it about a person."

But this goes back to my opinion that I don't follow a policy that the strictest parent's rule wins every time we're in a group. If another child isn't allowed to go up the slide, I don't make my kids follow that rule. If another child has to eat lunch before play at the playplace, I don't make my kids follow that rule. There's a tendency that, rather than all parents in a group coming to an agreement, that all follow whatever the strictest rule is, and I just don't like that tendency at all.

And I'm not really strict about my no swearing rule. I let my kids know that people don't respond well to hearing kids use certain language, and suggest they might have an easier time in life if they choose something else, and I might give some suggestions. I don't want them to pick up swearing, but it isn't a hill to die on issue for me by a long shot.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

When my kids were younger and we homeschooling, we were frequently around more conservative families because we lived where *most* homeschoolers were Christians and were homeschooling partly for religious issues. Both my kids could understand that while in *our* family, it isn't a big deal to occasionally use a swear word, in some families, it is a super big deal. So big of a deal that some mothers do not want their children around other children who use those words. I listed specific moms who felt most likely felt that way.

My kids understood that avoiding certain words in certain contexts was important for them *to get what they wanted* i.e. -- to play with some kids they really liked. It wasn't anything I ever enforced, I just explained reality to my children.

Both my kids could understand this by early elementary age, and one of my kiddos has special needs. It's not a super tough topic.

Just as we all get to decide what the rules are in our family, other families get to decide if they want their kids around ours. In this issue, the friendships were more important to my kids than being able to say sh*t.


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## cadybh (Jul 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LRMamaS*
> 
> But seriously everyone, how do you handle this with friends who have the opposing philosophy?


I guess I don't know yet... ack!

My son is just three, so at this point it's completely within my control who we hang out with (outside of daycare for him of course), and everyone so far agrees on most things... I just find I get together more with the fellow mothers who share a lot of my same parenting ideals. It truly hasn't come up yet.

I guess maybe I'd have a discussion with my son about how families have different rules, and that may be how things are at so-and-so's house, but we still have expectations about our behavior in our family no matter where we are... something along those lines? And I mean if it was F this and sh*t that, I'd probably honestly talk to the parent about it to be sure he or she was aware, and if they truly didn't care I'd probably not encourage future socializing. I think when kids are small (under 10? 12?) that's my parental right to decide.


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## XxAkikazexX (Apr 10, 2013)

We swear around the little one. If we are getting to sassy with it then I tell people to calm down, or at least not have raised voices using the words. My daughter said the f*ck once, and maybe sh*t twice. Now a days she just says "Shoot" all high pitched. They are just words, but we hold our tongues for other people's children.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

I grew up with my mom swearing a lot around me, and I have come to think it's really poor behavior. There is the new age American tendency in my family to 'be yourself', 'say whatever you feel', and don't be so judgmental and uptight, man'. It's a bizarre American sub-culture some of us have grown up in and if you look at the vast majority of the world, boundaries in behavior and speech are not only accepted, but expected, in educated circles. Why is that?

I am so ashamed of my generation when I see a reality TV show. I know a lot of it is fake, but the vocabulary isn't. It can look so dumbed down, vulgar, and out of control.

I believe that social boundaries are simply a means to help people understand whether they can feel safe and respected. In my husband's culture (south Asian), to use a ''bad' curse word is absolutely vulgar and shocking, especially in front of elders or women. There is a place for that, and my own culture has sadly become jaded.

Americans tend to make themselves look trashy to the rest of the world because of this rebellious, over-confident, anti-authoritarian stance. It's not nearly as cool as it used to be.

If we can learn to respect others while at the same time improving our self respect, whether we curse is a secondary consideration.

All that said, it makes cursing feel all the more liberating when I am really mad, and I would freely admit I do still do it if my husband and I are arguing in front of my two year old. I personally think the fact that I am losing control of my temper is just as important as the way in which I choose to express that frustration/loss of control. I certainly don't want my child to learn that it's acceptable.

In summary, I want my son to be able to fit in with educated, self respecting people as he grows up, so I frown on any casual behaviors that could interfere with that, including cursing.


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## foodymama (Feb 5, 2009)

DH and I watch what we say but aren't profanity free. I always think a well placed curse word can be the best adjective in certain situations! My MIL is completely offended by profanity and DD caught on to being careful around Grandma very quickly. When DH and I were first married we directed our church's Christmas program. The play we chose used the word "dumb" in one of the songs being sung about the stable animals. It never occurred to us that there could be a problem but there was an uproar from a few parents about their children singing that word since they're teaching their children not to say words like that. The parents even went as far as wanting me to change the word in a copyrighted play. I refused to do that and had to give an explanation on what the actual definitions of word dumb were. I am very respectful of other peoples practices but sometimes individuals can take their convictions a bit too far.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I grew up with my mom swearing a lot around me, and I have come to think it's really poor behavior. There is the new age American tendency in my family to 'be yourself', 'say whatever you feel', and don't be so judgmental and uptight, man'. It's a bizarre American sub-culture some of us have grown up in and if you look at the vast majority of the world, boundaries in behavior and speech are not only accepted, but expected, in educated circles. Why is that?
> 
> ...


I guess that makes sense, but I'd like to quibble with your characterization of someone who swears as a poorly educated, reality-television-watching piece of trash with no self respect.

I don't have a television and don't watch reality tv. My son (1) has a full subscription to our local symphony orchestra's season and likes to hum Sibelius to me when I'm changing his diaper. I spend my free time reading classic literature--and if you want a good source of your best swears, by the way, look no further. For social time, I drink single malts with my scotch tasting club. My family--all voracious word users, Anglo-Saxon ones included--are all editors and lawyers and Ivy League attenders and admirers of the opera.

We have been called snobs. Actually, we have been called fucking snobs, by other "educated, self respecting people". They all swear too, I assure you, or at least many of them do, and I've never suffered the least inconvenience from it.

You seem to equate swearing with having no other vocabulary, or speaking poorly in general. They don't have to go hand in hand. Swear words are not appropriate for the workplace, but are not necessarily inappropriate in casual social situations. You also seem to equate swearing with losing your temper, but I assure you I swear all the time when I'm perfectly calm, and don't associate the words with anger, necessarily.

I'm not trying to change your speech habits or your children's, which I'm sure are perfectly fine, but I just wanted to let you know that you seem to have put "swearing people" in a bubble in your mind in which they don't necessarily fit.

As for the OP's question--what should she do about a family who allows swearing when she doesn't?

I'd have to say this: you have rules in your family which are perfectly cool. You can control your kids' behaviour (to a certain extent!) or at least control what they are allowed to do or not. You also control (to a certain extent!) the world they see and the things they are exposed to. However, you can't and shouldn't control your friends' children's behaviour. If your kids hang out with them, they may hear a word you didn't want them to hear. If you can't handle that, don't hang out with them.

You may be able to minimize damage, though, in two ways:

1) Have a talk with your friend. Say that swearing isn't allowed at your house and see if she can talk to her kids about that. Depending on the ages of her children, they may understand and tone it down in front of your kids. Then again, they may not.

2) Have a talk with your children about proper language use and what's allowed in your family. Tell them that they may hear other kids say words that aren't allowed, but it doesn't mean they can say them. Again, this may have mixed results!


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> I guess that makes sense, but I'd like to quibble with your characterization of someone who swears as a poorly educated, reality-television-watching piece of trash with no self respect.
> 
> ...


Exactly. All of it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> You may be able to minimize damage, though, in two ways:
> 
> ...


This is kind of what I was getting at, even though I never really said it.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> I guess that makes sense, but I'd like to quibble with your characterization of someone who swears as a poorly educated, reality-television-watching piece of trash with no self respect.


Hi Michelle,

I edited this reply this morning after getting some sleep.

I can understand why people feel judged by my opinion. But it is what it is. I generally find people who curse in public or around their children to be trashy, yes. That is an intentional generalization and sometimes those are OK to have. I have been in social circles of every kind you can imagine and I don't think an ivy league education necessarily produces well educated people, either.

I think the cursing because of losing ones temper is particularly disrespectful, even more than the words themselves. This is a behavior I outright judge in myself as being bad, so I'm not exactly being unfair. I use 'bad' words because they have power. So does everyone, regardless of the rest of their intent.

In my circle, due to the multicultural and sometimes public nature, it is always best to avoid using words that are potentially offensive to anyone. In an upper middle class American network, there is clearly more privilege of choosing.

If your kids are privileged enough that you may be certain they will find their own ivy league cursing community in adulthood, that is quite fortunate and different from most. Although we are doing better than most we have seen people from many backgrounds lose everything and have to start over while depending on extremely different social and professional networks than they are accustomed to. So my goal is that the curse words are there for education about the power of words and how we try to respect each other by choosing positive or constructive words.

DH comes from a country where cursing is deeply frowned upon. They don't even have a sense irony. Seriously, it's quite different from your world. We encourage behaviors seeking harmony with both our cultures, and the values I teach are sometimes more pragmatic than idealistic. We don't have choose the privilege of idealistic free self expression.

I have no interest in fitting in with an elite drinking clique. We don't drink either, in fact. So, you and your friends might hold different opinions and values on what is interesting/funny/etc. There is no need to be upset that I hold different opinions and feelings. If cursing wasn't somehow "naughty", we wouldn't be discussing it, would we?


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## Soul-O (Mar 14, 2004)

I am in the minority here.. Cursing is never allowed under any circumstances - for me or the children. DH has been known to curse now and then, but not in front of the children, and usually in German. Our reasons for the cursing ban are mostly lifestyle related. DH is a military officer, and we tend to live on the post, which means we will encounter DH's co-workers ans superiors on a regular basis. It would reflect poorly on DH if we were heard cursing out in public. We are also a conservative, religious family. As such, we believe that our speech should be pleasing to the Lord, and curse words don't fit with that belief. No one is perfect, so of course mess ups happen. When the children use inappropriate language, we use those instances as learning opportunities (i.e. have a talk with them about appropriate ways to express their feelings).


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soul-O*
> 
> I am in the minority here.. Cursing is never allowed under any circumstances - for me or the children. DH has been known to curse now and then, but not in front of the children, and usually in German. Our reasons for the cursing ban are mostly lifestyle related. DH is a military officer, and we tend to live on the post, which means we will encounter DH's co-workers ans superiors on a regular basis. It would reflect poorly on DH if we were heard cursing out in public. We are also a conservative, religious family. As such, we believe that our speech should be pleasing to the Lord, and curse words don't fit with that belief. No one is perfect, so of course mess ups happen. When the children use inappropriate language, we use those instances as learning opportunities (i.e. have a talk with them about appropriate ways to express their feelings).


My husband's dad was a brigadier and he was taught not only because of his culture but also because of his family's 'public' example not to curse or even remotely disobey/cheat/etc. In the USA it is no doubt much more difficult to get children to go along with not cursing as a value because many parents have diverse opinions, so I feel like it's a god thing that you are able to approach them with the understanding that messups happen.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I have no interest in fitting in with an elite drinking clique. We don't drink either, in fact. So, you and your friends might hold different opinions and values on what is interesting/funny/etc. There is no need to be upset that I hold different opinions and feelings. If cursing wasn't somehow "naughty", we wouldn't be discussing it, would we?


I'm not trying to fit you into my clique, just pointing out that your characterization and assumptions are inaccurate. You don't have to swear or like profanity if you don't want to.

It's simply that you had associated profanity with lack of education, poor vocabulary, or out of control anger, and that just isn't factually true. Profanity can and has been uttered by well educated, totally happy wordsmiths, and that's not a matter of opinion. It's just something that happens.

On a vaguely related note:


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## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soul-O*
> 
> I am in the minority here.. Cursing is never allowed under any circumstances - for me or the children. D*H has been known to curse now and then, but not in front of the children, and usually in German. Our reasons for the cursing ban are mostly lifestyle related. DH is a military officer*, and we tend to live on the post, which means we will encounter DH's co-workers ans superiors on a regular basis. It would reflect poorly on DH if we were heard cursing out in public. We are also a conservative, religious family. As such, we believe that our speech should be pleasing to the Lord, and curse words don't fit with that belief. No one is perfect, so of course mess ups happen. When the children use inappropriate language, we use those instances as learning opportunities (i.e. have a talk with them about appropriate ways to express their feelings).


LOL Your poor children! German military parents! (hehe I say that lovingly, I had the same...)

If I could swear in German, I would. I can understand it and there are some phrases I've memorized and perfected but sadly I don't have a working knowledge of German cursing... it is hilarious and colorful though... anything translated into English makes the person sound like an escaped mental patient lol


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> I'm not trying to fit you into my clique, just pointing out that your characterization and assumptions are inaccurate.


I think I see where your misunderstanding is. You thought I was unaware of how some ivy league educated artistes and British scholars curse? Or are you saying that this minority of people negates my general characterization of Americans as vulgar and uneducated in part because of their cursing and uninhibited behaviors? There are different styles of cursing, obviously, but I don't think a classist double standard is just.

Here is another characterization: most men, also British ones, and even educated ones, would admit that they would probably prefer their mothers, wives and daughters not curse, despite their loud arguments for the validity of cursing for themselves. Deep down, these well educated men know that cursing is naughty and that is why they do it.; it's about control.

Most curse words imply male domination and objectification: fuck, ******, asshole, pussy, cunt. Women who play in to that will lose a losing game if they think it makes them the same as men. Maybe that is why my favorite curse word, and the only one used somewhat commonly in India, is SHIT.

I didn't make the world this unfair, but I see cursing as a way of letting that uncivilized male mentality win, and I want to set my own example, not because of what men think, but because of what I think of these words.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Most curse words imply male domination and objectification: fuck, ******, asshole, pussy, cunt. Women who play in to that will lose a losing game if they think it makes them the same as men. Maybe that is why my favorite curse word, and the only one used somewhat commonly in India, is SHIT.
> 
> I didn't make the world this unfair, but I see cursing as a way of letting that uncivilized male mentality win, and I want to set my own example, not because of what men think, but because of what I think of these words.


Yeah, I'm really not a fan of women calling their friends bitches and sluts claiming it's done with affection or whatever their rational is...


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I think I see where your misunderstanding is. You thought I was unaware of how some ivy league educated artistes and British scholars curse? Or are you saying that this minority of people negates my general characterization of Americans as vulgar and uneducated in part because of their cursing and uninhibited behaviors? There are different styles of cursing, obviously, but I don't think a classist double standard is just.
> 
> ...


This is by far the strangest theory I've ever seen about swearing. It doesn't match anything I've seen in real life.


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## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Am I the only one wondering why British people are being used as the epitome of class? Last I checked, they had their own slack-jawed mouth-breathers just like any other country.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I think I see where your misunderstanding is. You thought I was unaware of how some ivy league educated artistes and British scholars curse? Or are you saying that this minority of people negates my general characterization of Americans as vulgar and uneducated in part because of their cursing and uninhibited behaviors? There are different styles of cursing, obviously, but I don't think a classist double standard is just.
> 
> ...


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I'm a little confused by some of the posts that seem to suggest if you swear occasionally or dont get bent out of shape if your kid does that they somehow will not learn that there is a "right time/place" for the use of such words. I dont have a problem with cuss words and use them liberally at home. But i think its rude to hear someone use profanity while talking loudly on their cell at the gas station. Its not the appropriate place. The problem isnt the swearing, its the rudeness. I dont like to hear every other word be a cuss word (either in real life or on tv) mostly because it seems like there is a lack of creativity in finding other more appropriate words to use. But i think a well placed "f" word can be just the right thing to use in certain circumstances. Big deal.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Neither my DH nor I curse (I find it very tacky- are there not more creative ways to express ourselves), so unless my child hears it out in public, I ont have to worry right now about repeats.


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## LRMamaS (Nov 10, 2011)

Thank you all. You've given me some food for thought. I was always going to deal with this with my own kids in private, but wondered whether I should bring it up with my friend as well. She knows how I feel about swearing around my kids, and watches her own language when she's around them, so I will just operate on the assumption that she has asked her kids to do the same. I was hoping for some sort of magic solution that would shield my children's ears until they're at least 5ish, so no thanks for not delivering on that!







But I guess I'll just deal with it if/when it becomes an issue.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't really associate swearing with anger in my personal daily life. The vast majority of my swearing is done while having fun, like my example before about playing cards/dominoes. The kids are usually in the other room watching a movie while we play, and they probably hear a bit of it (although we do try to keep it down), and that doesn't bother me. It would bother me for them to hear me swearing angrily -- I think that would be scary for them, because they might equate it with a loss of control on my part.

If I hear neighbors swearing, context totally matters. A sighed, "Alright, let's get this sh*t done" before starting a big gardening project, no biggie whatsoever. An angry, "What the f*ck?!?" will put me on guard and make me get my kids inside until I figure out what the problem is and whether there's a threat. But I guess the curse words aren't the issue there -- it's the tone. If I heard an alarmed/angry, "Hey, what do you think you're doing?!?" I'd probably be just as on guard.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I used to be better about not swearing but my DD is older now and occasionally I do swear at home. There are times when a strong word feels perfect and helps me release the tension I feel and I feel free to do that in my own home. My DD occasionally drops a word at home but mostly saves it for recess like most children.

I don't think swearing and class are related, though that stereotype exists, but if they are I am fine with that. I am not in the class of people who are uptight about language and I am completely okay with that.


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I think I see where your misunderstanding is. You thought I was unaware of how some ivy league educated artistes and British scholars curse? Or are you saying that this minority of people negates my general characterization of Americans as vulgar and uneducated in part because of their cursing and uninhibited behaviors? There are different styles of cursing, obviously, but I don't think a classist double standard is just.
> 
> ...


"Uncivilized Male Mentality"?!?!?!?! This post is dripping with sexism, but I can't figure out who you dislike more-men or women? A previous poster commented that really awful things can be said without ever using a curse word. You just proved that point.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Escaping*
> 
> Am I the only one wondering why British people are being used as the epitome of class? Last I checked, they had their own slack-jawed mouth-breathers just like any other country.


Another poster had linked to a British guy commenting on swearing in reply to me. I don't personally consider them the epitome of class.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

My replies are in black font:



> "Fuck" doesn't imply male domination. "******" (and I feel filthy even typing that) is a slimy, nasty, racist word - but also not about men, per se.
> 
> The history of the word ****** is based on one race dominating another during a time when men were the only ones with rights. Countries in which women are educated and have any decent rights don't enslave people.
> 
> ...


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakah*
> 
> "Uncivilized Male Mentality"?!?!?!?! This post is dripping with sexism, but I can't figure out who you dislike more-men or women? A previous poster commented that really awful things can be said without ever using a curse word. You just proved that point.


I did use the term confusingly; let me clarify: While I do think men are inherently less civilized than women by nature, I don't think women are "better". By

Civil", I mean I think women tend to be less inherently aggressive, violent and more emotionally intelligent than men. We have our own "flaws" though, and civility is just one virtue women happen to have more of IMO.

Human beings have a tendency to not care about the environment unless they are educated accordingly; does that mean I dislike them if I talk about what needs to change or the fact that most of them are ignorantly polluting away? More importantly, does it even matter or disqualify the obvious observation?

My opinion has nothing to do with sexism. Maybe feminism. Recognizing differences in the sexes or having less than positive things to say about either one is not awful, just real.

I'm not afraid to have an unpopular opinion, and labels don't make a case either.I also replied to another poster regarding the accusation of my opinion being sexist that has more.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/sexism-definition/

*This is starting to get off the original topic and I feel like I have made my points as understood as I have the time and patience to. Since the OP is satisfied with the replies and has what she originally wanted, I personally don't plan to debate on the topics any further but respect others' rights to their own opinions.*


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I did use the term confusingly; let me clarify: While I do think men are inherently less civilized than women by nature, I don't think women are "better". By
> 
> ...


I guess our versions of feminism are different. For me, being a feminist means freeing women AND men from the social stereotypes, expectations, etc. of society. As a feminist, one of my biggest pet peeves is the "Boys will be boys" mentality that men and boys are out of control and unable to manage their "uncivilized" behavior. It implies that men are dumb, incapable beings and therefore excuses a list of bad behaviors in the world. I don't believe this to be true. I have numerous outstanding men in my life and am raising a son. I wouldn't tolerate someone saying a blanketed, sexist comment about women and therefore shouldn't tolerate it about males either.
I'm also bothered by your argument that women swear to feel liberated and "be the same as men". So, if a woman does something that is traditionally for males, then she isn't acting out of a sense of self but more to be like men? This is not a feminist idea.


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## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

I didn't take the "uncivilized male mentality" comment to mean that all men are uncivilized... I understood it to be referring to a group of men, which excludes civilized men, who would think or speak in a certain way...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> "Fuck" doesn't imply male domination. "******" (and I feel filthy even typing that) is a slimy, nasty, racist word - but also not about men, per se.
> 
> ...


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakah*
> 
> I guess our versions of feminism are different. For me, being a feminist means freeing women AND men from the social stereotypes, expectations, etc. of society. As a feminist, one of my biggest pet peeves is the "Boys will be boys" mentality that men and boys are out of control and unable to manage their "uncivilized" behavior. It implies that men are dumb, incapable beings and therefore excuses a list of bad behaviors in the world. I don't believe this to be true. I have numerous outstanding men in my life and am raising a son. I wouldn't tolerate someone saying a blanketed, sexist comment about women and therefore shouldn't tolerate it about males either.
> I'm also bothered by your argument that women swear to feel liberated and "be the same as men". So, if a woman does something that is traditionally for males, then she isn't acting out of a sense of self but more to be like men? This is not a feminist idea.


I understand your viewpoint as a feminist. My personal opinion of men *in general* is but a personal prejudice; I'm no scholar of this topic, just an opinion holder. But I never said men are unable to manage their behavior; I *meant* I think they benefit from the guidance of women, especially mothers, and without that figure represented, are just animals. Fortunately most men have had more than this and are NOT anything like the uglier stereotypes I allude to. I think women benefit from the protection of good men. I respect those roles, and think they are good for society, but l don't think they apply to all individuals and I think people should be able to decide for themselves what their role is. We are not all the same. I tried to clarify some of this is an earlier post but I hope that helps more.

Not all women feel that exhibiting stereotypical poor male behavior is liberating, but some do, and I think they are capable of setting their own standards and being more. I'm not above anything. That is not necessarily your brand of feminism, but it's mine.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Storm Bride, my replies are in blue.

The history of the word ****** is based on one race dominating another during a time when men were the only ones with rights. Countries in which women are educated and have any decent rights don't enslave people.

That's a correlation, and it doesn't prove causation. There are a lot of social changes that have to be made in order to get to the "women are educated and have decent rights" place from a place where those factors don't exist. Many of those changes would also preclude any acceptance of actual slavery.

Yeah, I agree. It was out of context in the original argument.

I've never seen anything to suggest that women are less likely to objectify when insulting someone than men are. More detailed? Maybe - but those details are frequently just a string of objectifying details. (There have also been many men who have come up with insults far beyond using a term like "asshole".)

Women tend to use words which challenge another's morality far more than men, whereas men tend to insult a person by challenging their inferiority/strength/weakness. It would sound more accurate to talk about "feminine and male behaviors" than men and women as if they all fit into these "roles", so please pardon the indistinction I'm making. I apologize for the insensitivity in not wording it more clearly but I'm just not used to it.

Okay - they're about objectification. But, you seem to feel that objectification is a male only phenomenon. It's not.

But think about what women often call each other? Bitch (implying cruelty), slut (implying bad morals). In my experience it's much more common than women who use words that are body parts. I don't believe it all comes from our social constructs; the basis for it is biological. Granted, women can be superficial and materialistic when insulting on a more "immature" level, they tend to make fun of appearance and this is common between both sexes. It changes are we develop sexually and is no coincidence.

As for blasphemy, you are right, that is extremely common, and also historically much, much more used by men than women. I digress on that.

Again - evidence? Historically, women were subject to far less social censure for swearing/cursing than women were. (I'm not saying they weren't censured - just that it wasn't to anywhere near the same degree as the censure heaped on women.) So, yes - women probably used these terms less than men, as women swore/cursed less than men, in general. In modern times, when men and women both curse, I've seen absolutely nothing to support the idea that men use these terms more than women do.

I agree, but it doesn't negate my opinion that the behavior is socially dangerous. We are talking about the use of specific words, not about the fact that ANY behaviors in hostility are dangerous.

I am talking about women who equate liberation in a male dominated culture with being able to exhibit the same vulgar behavior men have historically been the ones to exhibit.

Well...in some ways, they're right. The idea that women couldn't/shouldn't use that kind of language, just because they're women (or "ladies") was always really, really bizarre. There isn't a "no profanity" switch issued with the vulva. I've personally never thought of it as liberating, as such, but I've never had anyone try to tell me not to talk like that, just because I'm female, either. Had I grown up in an environment when people would routinely assume all sorts of bizarre things about my character ("easy", dishonest, lazy, etc.) simply because I used those terms, I'd probably find it liberating to be able to use them without such inane judgement. I don't know anybody who equates liberation with being able to swear...but I can certainly understand seeing the ability to swear without being beaten by one's father/husband/brother as liberating.

I don't think men should swear either. That's a very obtuse statement, but I apply it equally to both sexes. It's simply disrespectful and I am fairly open minded but we need a few boundaries in our culture because they serve a purpose. If a stranger came up to me swearing in public, I'd feel threatened. Words are not just words. When i hear somebody cursing around my child in public that I don't know, I feel threatened. And on a personal note, when I have somebody I care for and respect cursing in front of me, I feel disrespected. And ultimately, yes, I label it trashy because it serves no purpose. I can understand the urge to rebel from being judged, but that is not a rational reason to curse if it impacts others negatively. Unless you want to shave your head and live on Hollywood Blvd. I don't.

(And I will add in women who are unaware of how the words they use came to be used and how others outside their arena perceive them).

I don't care even a little bit about how others outsie my "arena" perceive me.

Why not? Don't you want to try to be understood out of respect for those who aren't like you? I think a lot of Americans feel the way you do, and it's sad because when I go to certain other places I see people take great pride in anyone from another country taking interest in them or their ways. It's never dismissed or taken for granted. It's respected.

The blue text you quoted had nothing to do with me cursing more than dh. I said dh is more civilizedthan I am. He's less aggressive (so was my ex) and less prone to physical expressions of anger/frustration (although, after many years of adulthood, I've gotten those under control). Neither one of us is prone to objectification of others. (Mind you, while suppression doesn't often play into it that much, one only has to watch some aspects of the "Mommy Wars" play out to know that women can be every bit as prone to objectification as men - it simply manifests differently.) Curse words mostly come from aggression, frustration and violence - sure - they are, at their core, verbal manifestations of those things. Characterizing that as "male" is flawed, and grossly oversimplifies the human condition.

As for the cursing vs civility, my bad. The rest I address above.

So what if their origins are male? For a very large chunk of human history, men ran the show, and the origins of many, many things are male. That doesn't mean that using those things is letting the "uncivilized male mentality" win.

You think women in men's bodies, or with the greater physical dominance rather, would have acted just as men have? I just don't agree.

We'll never know, one way or the other, becuase without women/mothers, men wouldn't even exist. They wouldn't have been born, or would have starved to death in infancy. I know, off the top of my head, three men who were physically abused by their mothers, and none of them would hurt a fly. They learned that compassion and gentleness somewhere, but it wasn't from mom.

There are plenty of examples of what happens to men without mother figures, and there is a reason soldiers are trained and indoctrinated in places like Congo and Pakistan/Afghanistan by being removed from their mothers as young children or even infants. One could argue that females treated this way might behave the same way, but any form of extreme brutality and abuse begets more of the same. There are very few exceptions to the past of males originating violence.

As to supporting "civility"...much of what women have historically (at least in the last few centuries,in western cultures) supported have been inane rules of behaviour that have absolutely nothing to do with emotional intelligence or civility.

Examples? Women like to make up rules of conduct just as much as men but they go about it i different ways. And when men do it, it's called starting a religion. It's intentions might be civility sometimes but its results are the opposite.

I think the idea that "men" and "women" possess certain inherent natures is inherently flawed - massively - by the huge variations between individuals. Sure - if you could map every person's temperament on a spectrum of traits, and then overlay them, you'd probably find more men at the "uncivilized" end, and more women at the "civilized" end, but there's so much variation that generalizations are nuts.

In American culture your point is understandable. But not in most other cultures; individuals tend to follow the flock more in the majority of the world. Generalizations are more obvious. In American culture we have greater freedom of self expression and that is a good thing, cursing not included IMO. I don't consider American culture to be the leader in things related to social justice and decorum. I still fail to see why generalizations are so inherently flawed when you just made one too. In their proper and respectful context, generlizations are necessary to make certain comparative observations.

In 44 years, I've failed to observe these "clear" and observable differences between the sexes.

It doesn't mean you are stupid, just confined to an American or liberal westernized experience that is quite different from most places.

I find painting an entire sex with a broad brush to be inherently sexist, whether you think the word has anything to do with you or not.

You can call it unfair, or prejudiced, obviously. But the classical definition of sexist that I linked to, no. I don't deny exceptions to my generalizations, as I stated before.

There are women who enjoy the "chase" and leading a guy on, romantically/sexually. Saying that "women enjoy leading a guy on" is sexist.

I don't agree with your definition of sexist, but I understand why you think the word applies. cit's technically too far off for me to let go of.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/sexism-definition/

You know...I have two sons and two daughters. They've all been raised pretty much the same way (some differences with my oldest,as he's 10 years older than the next, and the product of a different marriage - there was a year or so of his childhood that was pretty rough, in ways my other kids have never experienced). I haven't noticed any gender differences between my girls and my boys. One of my boys is "all boy" (what a nauseating phrase) in some ways, but not in others.

This is really pretty direct causation to me: Girls are inherently different from boys in their brains from birth, in their psychology, in their biology, and thus in their behaviors and social tendencies. Men tend to objectify. I said TEND because most of the world is pretty brutal and unfair. Our "liberated" American culture has its own sometimes different manifestations of these inherent gender differences, but I have met very few women claim their boys and girls are the same. That is extreme in any circle I know of. There is an obvious exception to this, which is transgendered, homosexual, and asexual people, but they are not choosing to be different, they are born that way. It's not a matter of social conditioning.

To deny sex differences is to negate the very thing that makes a person feel they are or are not male or female. It is not just physical, it's psychological and behavioral and very distinctly so.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> You thought I was unaware of how some ivy league educated artistes and British scholars curse? Or are you saying that this minority of people negates *my general characterization of Americans as vulgar and uneducated* in part because of their cursing and uninhibited behaviors? There are different styles of cursing, obviously, but I don't think a classist double standard is just.
> 
> Here is another characterization: *most men, also British ones, and even educated ones, would admit that they would probably prefer their mothers, wives and daughters not curse,* despite their loud arguments for the validity of cursing for themselves. Deep down, these well educated men know that cursing is naughty and that is why they do it.; it's about control.


I'm an American married to a well educated and successful British man. I'm just shaking my head as I read your post. It is offensive to refer to any group of people as generally vulgar and uneducated. It's really quite a vulgar and uneducated thing to do! Surely part of your education broached on not making sweeping generalizations?

As far as the rest, my British husband would say that you are "just talking out your arse."

Your generalizations about swear words don't include the kinds of words used as profanity in other languages, even British English (which is sort of its own language). I personally find French swear words fascinating because so many are religious.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

demeter: I just wrote a very long post, and had something go wrong in the last few minutes. I don't have the time or the energy to post it again.

Suffice it to say - I find your views of gender and men at least as offensive as you find swearing. You can use whatever definition you like for sexism, but the ones at dictionary.com fit into my understanding pretty well. (There's a lot of "usually men", but it can go either way.)

I disagree with you about innate differences between men and women, at least the way you're presenting them. I also never said that my "boys and girls are the same". I have four children - two boys and two girls. They're all different. One of my boys is somewhat stereotypically male, to some eyes. Neither of my girls is particularly stereotypically female (well, the little one isn't even four yet - we'll see). They're all nurturing towards babies, small fuzzy animals, etc. And, the one who has the personality that I feel would be the most dangerous should serious power ever come along is a daughter, not a son.

I also find it very odd that you're bolstering your comments about the differences between men and women by bringing up the dynamic when those men and women are expected to behave in certain ways (ie. "follow the flock") according to their gender. If those differences are less pronounced in cultures with more freedom of self expression, then those differences are, at least in part, a cultural construct. Fitting in is important to most people, and people have done a lot more drastic things than playing the role of a "real man" or whatever, in order to do so.

I also have to say that I don't get this at all:

Quote:


> I don't care even a little bit about how others outsie my "arena" perceive me.
> 
> Why not? Don't you want to try to be understood out of respect for those who aren't like you? I think a lot of Americans feel the way you do, and it's sad because when I go to certain other places I see people take great pride in anyone from another country taking interest in them or their ways. It's never dismissed or taken for granted. It's respected.


I live my life in a way that works for me. Respecting other people doesn't mean changing my life to fit in with what they think it should look like. I think we must have talking about two different things, but...no - I don't care what other people think of me over the swearing thing. If it's that big a deal to them, we're probably not going to mesh very well, anyway. If someone is interested enough to wonder about my language use, we can talk about it. But, I didn't get the feeling that's what you meant when I replied to you. (My above green quote was in response to "(And I will add in women who are unaware of how the words they use came to be used and how others outside their arena perceive them)" - blue added by me, to clarify that it was your quote. I have no idea how you got from this to "don't you want to try to be understood?". (To be honest, I don't, particularly. Very few people even within my own "arena" have ever understood me very well.)

*sigh*
I still can't believe I lost that whole freaking post.

Oh - one last thing from the lost post. At what point does violence "originate"? In my youth (fueled by insane PMS), I quite badly hurt several classmates, and attempted to hurt several more (this includes putting someone in a whiplash collar, knocking over two desks with someone else, ripping out someone else's hair, hitting someone else repeatedly in the head with a metal file). Not a single one of those people had laid a hand on me prior to me trying to beat the living hell out of them - not one. Only two of them even hit me back in self defense. There are children, including boys, being raised by women who are that violent. If those men grow up to be wife/child beater, where did the violence originate?


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## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

This may not be helpful, but, I once had a teacher who said most of the 4-letter words we use to swear with in English are actually Celtic words. When the multiple invasions of the British Isles took place, the Celts were pushed aside and were considered inferior to the French- and English-speaking ruling classes. Those colorful words became associated with being lower class, when in reality they were simply a part of a different culture's language.

I know the words are not received the same in these times and are used for certain emphases, but it's interesting to uncover a possible link to why those words are incorrectly associated with being "lower" class.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *redheather*
> 
> This may not be helpful, but, I once had a teacher who said most of the 4-letter words we use to swear with in English are actually Celtic words. When the multiple invasions of the British Isles took place, the Celts were pushed aside and were considered inferior to the French- and English-speaking ruling classes. Those colorful words became associated with being lower class, when in reality they were simply a part of a different culture's language.
> 
> I know the words are not received the same in these times and are used for certain emphases, but it's interesting to uncover a possible link to why those words are incorrectly associated with being "lower" class.


Almost, but not quite!

The words you are referring to, juicy strong words like fuck, shit, cock, and cunt, are actually Anglo-Saxon (or Old English) in origin. The Anglo-Saxons were the main citizens of Britain from the 6th to the 11th century, until they were invaded by the Normans (the French) in 1066.

We have many words surviving from Old English, and yes, they are all considered uncouth in connotation because they were spoken by the plebes. You'll notice it, for instance, with food. We use the Anglo-Saxon word for when we're raising the meat, and the Norman word for when we're cooking or eating it.

We raise cows, but we eat beef.

We raise pigs, but we eat pork.


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## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks for clarifying! Linguistics and how they affect us are fascinating to me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> Almost, but not quite!
> 
> ...


This is totally OT, but thanks! This is one of those things that has come up many times in conversations with my kids, but never when I can look it up (eg. when we're driving somewhere). I never think to look it up when I could look it up, so it remained a mystery until now. Fascinating stuff.


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## Sphinxy (Oct 4, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> But I never said men are unable to manage their behavior; I *meant* I think they benefit from the guidance of women, especially mothers, and without that figure represented, are just animals. Fortunately most men have had more than this and are NOT anything like the uglier stereotypes I allude to. I think women benefit from the protection of good men.


Wow. I just found my way back to this thread thinking, what of interest to me could have possibly been added to this thread regarding swearing in front of kids that wasn't said already the last time I checked in? What a surprise I had!

So I got sucked in and read along, quite content with the responses of so many rockin' feminists who said everything I would have wanted to say. And then I got to this quote. I really can only imagine that the reason no one addressed it before is because they were so exhausted after going so many rounds on this topic and realized that for their own sanity they had to walk away. So, before I go take a shower to rinse off how dirty I feel after reading the text above, I'll leave you with this, *demeter*:

Your clarification of what you "*meant*" to say about men is so much more abhorrent than what you said the first time. I'm truly disgusted. There are single fathers and gay fathers out there raising young boys with no female role models in their lives doing a fantastic job and shame on you for passing judgment on them and calling their children animals.

And about women. I think women benefit from the protection of a good society that respects the independence of women. That raises their girls to enter into partnerships equally and without feeling a necessity for the protection of a man. I think all men and women both benefit from a culture that doesn't place the responsibility of "protecting" on men, as it gives boys and men an inappropriate feeling of authority and power, and places women and girls in an instant position of submission.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Just popping in to make sure you all saw our Mothers Day Contest. In addition to three Boba baby carriers we're giving a $300 dinner/spa package for one lucky mom. Contest ends in three days! Get the entry info here: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1382508/let-mothering-and-boba-pamper-you-this-mothers-day/0_100


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Right on, Sphinxy! And yes, I ultimately stopped dealing with anything Demeter was saying because it quickly became... well, clearly a fringe opinion.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

. I couldnt agree more, sphinxy! Well said









As for me, i dont make a big deal out of cussing. I and DH do it a few times a day, but when our kids are in school or playing with friends i'll be sure to educate them about the inappropriateness of the words. They're okay to do at home but not with mixed company--basically the same as what a lot of other posters have said. I dont understand eliminating words like "hate" or "bad"--those words represent very important feelings and opinions that shouldnt be disallowed simply because theyre uncomfy. I hate pedophiles. I hate racist people. I hate abuse. These are legitimate statements that are true and very real. It just wouldnt be the same to say, "i dislike pedophiles or i dont really like racist people." No, it just wouldnt work. And i think teaching our kids that and allowing them to express hatred is healthy. Now, overusing hate is a different story. Saying i hate broccoli or i hate commercials is going too far--its much more appropriate to say i dislike broccoli and i dont like commercials very much. And whats wrong with saying i feel bad? Or, this cheese tastes bad? Or, i dont like bad weather? None of these seem bad to me lol.


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## Ashley Bennet (Jul 8, 2013)

Im not as of yet a mom so this is probably a lil premature but Yes i have a sailor mouth and was raised by a mom ( who i got it from) would probably never change that, i do have a neice who is 12 and i have a sailor mouth around her but it doesnt seem to affect her at all. although if it did i dont think it would matter much as i a was cussing at her age!


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## MamadeRumi (Aug 5, 2012)

Before I had DS I knew two mamas-to-be who took totally different approaches to this. One found out she was pregnant and started coming up with alternative words, the other admitted that her foul mouth was "bigger than her" and she accepted it. I made no decision one way or the other, and was shocked when, shortly after the birth of DS, I dropped something on my foot and heard myself say, "fudgesickles!" Fudgesickles? Really? I've never said that. Never. But now it has become a regular part of my vocabulary. Which doesn't mean that I haven't accidentally taught my ds some other words. One of his early favs was "darn, darn, darn" which came about after I dropped something, said, damn, and then caught myself and said, "I mean darn. Darn, darn, darn." DS found the repetition quite amusing. More recently I was trying to fix a plumbing problem and though I knew he was around, I didn't realize how close he was, and I said Damn. Ds, who turned out to be right behind me said, "why did you say damn?" In a moment of panic I said, "no, I said darn." He looked confused for a minute, then asked, "did you say damn and then say darn?" He obviously knew what he had heard and my attempt to fib just confused him, so I ended up telling him, "you're right. I said damn. And I shouldn't have. And I shouldn't have told you that I didn't say it. Mommy is working hard and I got confused and frustrated. I'm sorry." That resolved the issue, and he went back to talking to the imaginary monsters (nice ones) who were also watching me wrestle with the plumbing.

So, I guess the answer is that I do swear in front of him, but I try not to. I apologize when I do. And having learned my lesson, I don't lie about it when I slip. That ended up being more embarrassing than the swearing.


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## Dela (Jul 8, 2013)

I try not to but it happens and when it does it's NBD. Our kids know all those charming words (from us and others) and we're not making it a big secret or having kittens over it. DH and I told them they can say them as much as they want at home, but that because some other people are sensitive and feel that out of 450,000 words in the English language, these few somehow hold magical powers and are "bad," that it might not be a good idea to say them around others. They get it for the most part. So far no one's taken us up on the offer to use them casually at home, they just don't hold power since they don't shock us and it doesn't get attention.

The only words I really reinforce them not to say or use EVER are racial and sexual (homophobic, anti-woman) slurs. I could hear a little kid spouting off the "f" word a lot easier than I could listen to them say, "that's gay," in terms of something they find stupid.


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