# Counting to three....



## festivefeet (Jul 27, 2008)

What are your opinions on counting to three when your child will not follow through with something?

If you are not in favor, what are some other options?

Thanks.
J.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

We count. I count to 10 when its time to leave a place. Though now I have graduated to a visual 60 second timer. DS needs a lot of help with transitions...that is, moving from one activity to the other - this might be from leaving the house to go to the playground, leaving the playground to go have lunch, etc.
BUT - and a big but here... I do *not* do anything to my DS if said time is up and he does not budge. A lot of people who I know who 'count' - then do something to their child if they didnt do said request. Be it spanking them, punishing them, physically forcing them, etc. DS has decided he was not ready to go and needed a bit more help with the transition a handful of times. Other than that, I have no problem with it. He knows I wont do anything to him. There is no obligation there. I just use it to help with the transition (and it really does help, beside the fact he has SPD and I suspect an ASD - most small children do need some help with transitions). If I felt I needed to use it to control DS, then I would have to take a step back and look a bit deeper at the issue at hand. (which means you would have to get more specific about what your child is not doing that you are requesting of them). Most people that I see who use 'counting' to _control_ their child (besides how I use it, thats how they _do_ use it) - use it as a quick fix to get their child to comply quickly to their wishes. They give them the _false choice_ of either doing A or getting B (which is always a punishment of some kind). - That, I _do no__t_ agree with.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

We don't do a count-down or count to 3, but I will count the number of times I've asked dd to do something; more to help her realize what's happening in the moment.

"Dd I need you to put on your shoes so we can leave"

... playing, asking questions, making excuses for a few minutes....

"Dd, I'm asking you a _2nd time_ to put your shoes on please."

... more playing, more whining, etc...

"Dd this is the 3rd time I'm asking you. I'm feeling really frustrated because I feel like you're not listening. How can we be sure that I won't need to ask you a 4th time?"

That's just an example. It's not always that smooth.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We count. I said I would never do it but I do and I am okay with it. There is no punishment involved or anything, typically it is after we have playful parented/reasoned/whatever and I am running out of patience. The "three" only means "and now I will help you along with that."

So, the "punishment" if you could call it that, is that she doesn't do it by herself or whatever. So an example would be:

"dd time to go, please get your shoes on"

(10 minutes and 3 more reminders)

"Okay dd, do you want to just put them on in the car instead?"

"No, I want to put them on here!"

"Okay, I'm waiting... put them on please"

(dd gets distracted, 5 more minutes go by... we are going to be late at this point)

You get the idea. Then, I may say something like okay, I am giving you to the count to three to (even begin) putting on your shoes. I will help you after that.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that counting can be useful if you make it clear to your child that when you reach a specific number you are going to come over and help them get a task done. You can help a child cooperate in gentle ways with a gentle tone. If counting makes you angry then you shouldn't do it, but if you can do it in a calm and matter of fact way then I think it can be a great thing. I also think it helps kids learn their numbers. I used to count to ten but now that dd is older I count backwards from ten and sometimes I count by 2's to 20.


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

: I think it's appropriate as a transitioning tool, whether letting them know it's just about time for them to do something or for you to do something for/to them, so they can start to shift mentally into cooperation with you. That's different than doing it with a threatening/punitive air.

I also think that you have to make sure you have their attention before you start doing this. I feel like sometimes the issue of non-cooperation that parents feel is really about the child being so absorbed in something else that they don't even hear you. So acknowledging what they're doing and looking for a good moment to interrupt, then getting down on their level, touching them and making eye contact...


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## jmo (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think that counting can be useful if you make it clear to your child that when you reach a specific number you are going to come over and help them get a task done. You can help a child cooperate in gentle ways with a gentle tone.

This.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justthinkn* 
I also think that you have to make sure you have their attention before you start doing this. I feel like sometimes the issue of non-cooperation that parents feel is really about the child being so absorbed in something else that they don't even hear you. So acknowledging what they're doing and looking for a good moment to interrupt, then getting down on their level, touching them and making eye contact...

And this.

I only use counting similar to the the shoe issue above. When we get to three it means I will come help dd do whatever it is I am needing her to do. She's 3 and very much wants to do everything herself so often this motivates her to get the job done. But sometimes, I've noticed that couting will help focus her and she sees what I'm asking when she was she was too absorbed in playing to hear me before.


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## abomgardner417 (Jun 19, 2007)

I use it...but I don't like it. I can't really pinpoint why I don't like it, and I'll admit I use it when I'm getting really frustrated. It's usually after "DS, do you want to come over here by yourself, or do you want me to help you?" I start counting when that doesn't work and they usually come over by '2'. If I get to three then I get up and take them by the hand and walk them over to where I wanted them in the first place. But does it seem kinda pointless to anybody else? I mean, why didn't I just get off my lazy butt and go to them in the first place? Anybody feel this way too?


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## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
We count. I said I would never do it but I do and I am okay with it. There is no punishment involved or anything, typically it is after we have playful parented/reasoned/whatever and I am running out of patience. The "three" only means "and now I will help you along with that."

So, the "punishment" if you could call it that, is that she doesn't do it by herself or whatever. So an example would be:

"dd time to go, please get your shoes on"

(10 minutes and 3 more reminders)

"Okay dd, do you want to just put them on in the car instead?"

"No, I want to put them on here!"

"Okay, I'm waiting... put them on please"

(dd gets distracted, 5 more minutes go by... we are going to be late at this point)

You get the idea. Then, I may say something like okay, I am giving you to the count to three to (even begin) putting on your shoes. I will help you after that.

That's what I do.
The thing is, I want to know that if it was something serious, a safety thing, that my kids would or could comply when I asked them to. I don't ask them for compliance without giving them a valid reason, but I do expect some compliance over some things.


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## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abomgardner417* 
I use it...but I don't like it. I can't really pinpoint why I don't like it, and I'll admit I use it when I'm getting really frustrated. It's usually after "DS, do you want to come over here by yourself, or do you want me to help you?" I start counting when that doesn't work and they usually come over by '2'. If I get to three then I get up and take them by the hand and walk them over to where I wanted them in the first place. But does it seem kinda pointless to anybody else? I mean, why didn't I just get off my lazy butt and go to them in the first place? Anybody feel this way too?

I see what you mean, but I use the time to give them the chance to decide they're going to do it on their own first. I can imagine my kids would get really annoyed if I went straight over and got them in that type of situation. The warning give them time to finish up what they're doing.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I give the ol' one, two, three to let dd know I am serious about a deadline







So with us, it works because typically we don't have any time constraints/deadlines. Typically, we are a mostly consensual family in most day to day interactions. There are times though, where I can't (and quite frankly don't feel like) sitting there for 30 minutes trying to "mutually agree" on getting your darn shoes on so we can get out the door. Of course right now she doesn't understand the whole concept of people waiting, being late, holding people up etc -- because she is (and very developmentally appropriate) self centered -- so I do whip out the 'ol 1-2-3 in those situations with absolutely zero guilt. The kid has the life of Riley over here, if 1-2-3 *I'm going to help this along* is the worst she is subjected to
(and ya know what, it pretty much is), I call that a pretty charmed life


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

ooh i tried that, my daughter just counts with me (she's two 1/2 ) , & that makes me laugh, & then we forget what the problem was, so it works that way. I don't think I'd ever really want to use it , though, because I remember my father doing it & me being incredibly scared of him. I don't want my children to be scared of me. Not judging you,though, whatever works for you & your family, it's different for everyone!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

DD is definitely not scared of me







There is only fear if there is something to fear kwim. Like, if the only fear is "I'm sure scared mama might make good on my shoes having to be on before gallavanting around town" then yeah, that is the risk I am willing to take. We don't do punishments but we do expect reasonable requests to be, at the very least... considered


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

yes, i know that. I am often too nice to my dd (if such a thing is possible) , because I remember how my dad was, & I still don't really talk to him. I just don't see the the point in wrestling my crying toddler into trousers when she would rather be naked, & we''re not going out that day. Of course she has to get dressed when we go outside, but inside i am really not that fussed.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We have never forced anything on dd -- when I say help, I really mean... help... not force. I am not an advocate of forcing a dissenting child into doing something with their body that the don't consent to! Sometimes with dd though, she needs a concrete example of what not putting shoes on means -- that we can't go to fun places -- not as a punishment, but I am beyond carrying my 35lb 3.5 year old around all day simply because she has chosen not to wear shoes -- and it is not agreeable to me to let her go barefoot unless we are in a place where there is nothing to hurt herself on.

So, the one two three is ... at three I will help you, if you protest, cool, but we can't go







-- which of course, results in a tantrum, which of course, results in... well, put on your shoes... (and I am only keeping to the shoe example for continuity, not because I care so much about shoes







) --- but sometimes, we are meeting someone, or there is an appointment, or a situation where time is of the essence and I am not going to make people sit around all day because my child didn't feel like putting on pants.

That having been said though, in 3.5 years we have never forced anything on her but once when after 3.. count them 3 hours of her not wanting to leave a shopping center (we weren't shopping or playing or anything, it was three HOURS of her sitting outside of a store not wanting to leave... and me trying to reach a "mutually agreeable solution"







,) I carried her, kicking and screaming, to the car without a shred of guilt about it.


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

ooh,been there,done that, nine months pregnant, heavy rain & dd will not leave the playground. had to call dh , he came home from work , because i simply could NOT carry that big scraming & kicking toddler home. So he came to the playround, put her in the car & drove us home.
I like "1,2,3 & then i'll help you , i think that is a very good thing to do. Me personally I could not wait 3 hours for dd to make a decision, we have a time limit of roughly half an hour around here, because of ds, who is only 2 months old.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herewearetogether* 
Me personally I could not wait 3 hours for dd to make a decision, we have a time limit of roughly half an hour around here, because of ds, who is only 2 months old.

I would never wait three hours again!! That was before, when I used to think every single situation had a reasonable, agreeable, happy solution for everyone involved. 99% of the time, yes, that can happen ime -- but there is that one percent of course LOL That was it.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't count and I can't really imagine doing it. I have never seen anybody use this method, but it sounds to me a bit ... too much of a method, maybe, a bit mechanical? A bit like a threat, perhaps.

I do say "Ok now I have asked you two times (to put your shoes on) and I have waited for quite a long time. I don't want to wait any longer, so you have to put your shoes on now, or I will put them on for you."

I'm not entirely sure what the difference is? I think maybe I feel that counting over the child's head is a bit disrespectful. I wouldn't do it with a grown-up, or liked it if my husband did it to me.


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## ilovebabies (Jun 7, 2008)

We don't count. We expect immediate obedience. Children learn quickly when you "really mean it" and when they can stall. If you count to 3 all the time, they will never take you seriously the first time because they know that until you count, they don't have to listen.

This doesn't mean we don't give them a head's up when appropriate. First, we make sure they hear us. We get on their level, make eye contact, even have them repeat it back to us if we're unsure. If we need to leave a playground for example, after we know they're listening, we'll say, "Okay, you can play for 5 more minutes and then we have to leave.". This lets them know that we will be leaving but we aren't yanking them away in a moment's notice from something they are loving with no warning.

We also try to be careful that we don't make them stop in the middle of something unless we have to. If my dd is drawing and almost done, we'll let her finish.

Also, depending on what it is, we've had our children say things like, "Can I do this first?" or whatever. So many things I could put in here. It depends on the age too.

But overall, we teach our children that when we say to do something (or not to do something), they are to listen the first time. We start teaching this at an age appropriate time (around 2 depending on the child).


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I don't count and I can't really imagine doing it. I have never seen anybody use this method, but it sounds to me a bit ... too much of a method, maybe, a bit mechanical? A bit like a threat, perhaps.

I do say "Ok now I have asked you two times (to put your shoes on) and I have waited for quite a long time. I don't want to wait any longer, so you have to put your shoes on now, or I will put them on for you."

I'm not entirely sure what the difference is? I think maybe I feel that counting over the child's head is a bit disrespectful. I wouldn't do it with a grown-up, or liked it if my husband did it to me.

I don't use the "I wouldn't do it with a grown-up" analogy anymore. I am not dealing with a grown-up, I am dealing with a child. I am not suggesting they both are not deserving of respect -- but at the same time they have wildly differing abilities and understanding, as well as the adult having a (hopefully) deeper sense of consideration and empathy and ability to put themselves in the shoes of another ---- I have never sat and completely ignored my husband as he (inwardly) freaked out about being late to an appointment we needed to get to, as he patiently asked me and reasoned with me while I continued to go about my business completely oblivious and caring not about things such as appointments or time constraints. On the same token, my husband would never dream of saying to me, "I have waited for you to put your shoes on, now I will do it for you. " as per your example, so I don't get what you are exactly getting at







I don't expect my child to be a mini-adult with the same reasoning skills, understanding, impulse control, and empathy. I treat her with respect but I treat her like a child, and that is not an insult imo.

I don't count over her head







... it is more from across the room as I am doing 10 other things. I don't expect it is any more disrespectful than my kitchen timer that will continue beeping when the pasta is done until I do something about it.

That is what my counting is, a slightly annoying reminder that something needs to start happening.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Well..we aren't GD, I'll say that much. i'm not sure how much else I can say without getting reprimanded...please mods, if I say something I'm not allowed to, please TELL ME and not just reprimand me...We do not advocate hitting or anything, but we are more authoritarian, we expect our kids to do what we tell them to, yes, I'll say it, "obey" us.

I see mostly cons to the counting. In general, I am not in favor of it, because essentially, you are telling the child "you don't REALLY have to do what i say, when i say it, you can do whatever you want for a little while, and only after i count to 3, or 5, or 20, etc, do you REALLY have to do what you are told" and I think that is absolutely the WRONG message to send kids. My kids need to do what they are told RIGHT NOW when I tell them to do it. But I am talking mostly about older kids who are developmentally typical and can, if it is taught to them, have that ability. Say, 4+

Now, for a younger child, or one who has serious "transition" issues, like my dd had for a while, I can see the benefit..although again, i would "structure" it in a different way that did not make it seem like they were "allowed" to ignore me and then choose when they want to obey me. Like...I might say to dd "in 5 minutes we are going to the store, you need to be ready." and then at the 3 minute mark say it again, and the 1 minute mark I will be more firm such as "in one minute, mommy is walking out the door and getting into the car to go to teh store, you will have to have your shoes on to come with me. would you like help or can you do it yourself?"
do you see how that is different than saying "please put your shoes on rigth now, we are going to the store." and then allowing her to disobey for a period of time before coming back and telling her again or counting to 3?

We are juggling 2 jobs for dh and I, 2 seperate families with custody/visitation agreements, 4 different schools (each with various pickup times, of course!) between the 5 kids and numerous activities like wrestling, boy scouts, etc. We have a strict schedule, and being places on time is simply not a negotiable issue(the state frowns on your 10 year old being left outside in the snow after school has let out fo rthe day, for example), we HAVE to leave when it's time to leave, we don't often get to stay in the house all day, etc.
We don't pick battles if they are not necesary, and if we have the option to stay at home all day, awesome! ...but generally, we expect the kids to do what they are told *right now*, not after we count to 5 or whatever.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

This is a very interesting topic to me. Some posters are viewing counting as a way to help their kid with time in order for them to transition to another activity. Some posters feel it is an out for the the kid to play around more and not obey immediately.

I have a 1 year old so I am still telling her what I want her to do and doing it with her so I am not at the counting stage yet. However, I do want to set up the habit of her doing what I ask her to do immediately. Am I just crazy to think that a kid will do what you ask them to immediately? I am learning a lot from this forum and appreciate the help...but I probably fall more into the authoritative type than the consensual living type although I think I am a bit of both.

*There is a subtle difference , which Bobandjess pointed out, between the '5 minutes and we are leaving' and the, 'I've asked you twice and now I will count to three', method. Both ways seem like a countdown of sorts to transition, but I think the difference is if the parent has asked 2,3,or 4 times and THEN start the count down. This is what I don't want to do as a parent. I want to ask once and if they don't do it then I will help them. Well, that is my plan anyway







. Any more thoughts on this?*
But how about for younger kids. How do you get them into the habit of just putting their shoes on when ask them to?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 

I have a 1 year old so I am still telling her what I want her to do and doing it with her so I am not at the counting stage yet. However, I do want to set up the habit of her doing what I ask her to do immediately. Am I just crazy to think that a kid will do what you ask them to immediately? I am learning a lot from this forum and appreciate the help...but I probably fall more into the authoritative type than the consensual living type although I think I am a bit of both.


I used to think that kids reached a stage when they immediately listen, but as dd has gotten older and has become more confident with herself and more aware of her desires I have stopped thinking this. This is not a stage I would want her to get to. It would mean that I wasn't respecting her right as a person to have things she wants to do. There are times when I do need her to listen to me and do something I asked her to do because of many factors and we do have some rules and limits, but I don't expect her to immediately comply even then, we do a lot of transition things and explaining and when I do need to help her get ready I explain why. She is six and is at a place where she can understand that her desires don't always come first but that I will still make a big effort to help her get many of her desires met.

We have only one word when we expect each other to stop immediately and that is Stop, it is our safety and a word we use when we want something like tickling or grumpy words to stop. We both use it and it is a word I respect when she says it and she respects when I say it.


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## ilovebabies (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
However, I do want to set up the habit of her doing what I ask her to do immediately. Am I just crazy to think that a kid will do what you ask them to immediately? I

No, it's not crazy at all. You can train a child either way. You can either train them that you're not serious until you get to the "3" when counting, or you can teach them that you expect them to obey immediately. Kids are super smart. How many kids will totally ignore their parents until the mom raises her voice, starts to walk toward them, or starts counting, and then all the sudden they do what you asked? They have been trained to not take the parent seriously until this point (and believe me, children know what that point is with their parents). That's because they have been allowed to ignore the parent the first time, or second time, or whatever.

Picture the scenerio. Mom has said, "Bobby, it's time to put your shoes on now so we can leave." Bobby ignores mom and continues what he's doing. "Bobby, I said go get your shoes on for mommy." Again, ignored. "Bobby, I'm counting to 3 and you better go get your shoes on." Bobby ignores mom until... "Mommy's counting... one, two... two and a half....three!" Bobby finally obeys.

How stressful. Bobby has actually trained mommy, not the other way around.

I've tried both approaches (I'm pg with #5) and counting is only delaying their obedience and causes frustration for the parent. Children are perfectly capable of obeying the first time, but only if that's the way you train them.

Again, refer to my earlier post that mentions some exceptions. There are always exceptions because every situation is unique. Like just a few minutes ago I told my 3 year old that lunch was ready. She had just received a brand new book in the mail from her book club. She said, "Mommy, I want to read this book." I said, "Okay, that's fine, I understand it's a new book. After you are done though, you need to come and eat your lunch." Because she's 3 and not 6, I'll remind her when she finishes the book to come and eat her lunch now and I will expect her to get up and come eat her lunch, and she will without me counting to 3.

I guess some would also say that we're more "authoritarian", but honestly, I just call it loving my kids. Training my children respect and obedience is loving them, and increases their self esteem.

Good luck to you!


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I don't use the "I wouldn't do it with a grown-up" analogy anymore. I am not dealing with a grown-up, I am dealing with a child.

I don't count over her head







... it is more from across the room as I am doing 10 other things. I don't expect it is any more disrespectful than my kitchen timer that will continue beeping when the pasta is done until I do something about it.

That is what my counting is, a slightly annoying reminder that something needs to start happening.









Well I didn't write my post as a criticism of what you or anybody else do, I just described how I feel about this counting method, as the OP was asking for different opinions. I think it's relevant to imagine how it would feel for me to be treated that way, you don't - OK, you're entitled to your opinion.









I agree with those of you who say that they expect to be heard without having to count, and I don't think that's un-GD in any way. Depending on the situation and the age of the child I think it's perfectly reasonable that we can't always wait five minutes or ask several times. At the stage we are currently at I try never to ask more than twice, because I don't want to create the habit that they ignore what I say because they know that I don't mean it.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

DH and I count to three. Works like a charm. She's only three and for now I'm happy with it. I don't expect instant obedience at this age. I'm not sure if I'll ever expect INSTANT obedience but I do expect that as she gets older, I won't have to count. But for now it'll do.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I got into the bad habit of counting to three with my older dd.

Personally, I didn't like the way I used it. It was a very 'my power over you' mentality.

We never even discussed what would happen if I got to 'three', kwim? Dd was just scared enough to comply. I should add we're a non-hitting family, and I rarely yell.

So, the other day dd was on my LAST nerve about dawdling when I needed to leave. I said 'One... two...' and we both busted out laughing.

Because she's almost six, it was almost incongruous, kwim? It definitely doesn't fit our discipline issues anymore.

We just talked about how I was feeling frustrated with her dawdling, and came up with some other solutions.

For the record, we definitely practice gentle discipline and appropriate consequences, but I would never say we are CL. Dh and I have the final say around here.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovebabies* 
No, it's not crazy at all. You can train a child either way. You can either train them that you're not serious until you get to the "3" when counting, or you can teach them that you expect them to obey immediately. Kids are super smart. How many kids will totally ignore their parents until the mom raises her voice, starts to walk toward them, or starts counting, and then all the sudden they do what you asked? They have been trained to not take the parent seriously until this point (and believe me, children know what that point is with their parents). That's because they have been allowed to ignore the parent the first time, or second time, or whatever.

Picture the scenerio. Mom has said, "Bobby, it's time to put your shoes on now so we can leave." Bobby ignores mom and continues what he's doing. "Bobby, I said go get your shoes on for mommy." Again, ignored. "Bobby, I'm counting to 3 and you better go get your shoes on." Bobby ignores mom until... "Mommy's counting... one, two... two and a half....three!" Bobby finally obeys.

How stressful. Bobby has actually trained mommy, not the other way around.

I've tried both approaches (I'm pg with #5) and counting is only delaying their obedience and causes frustration for the parent. Children are perfectly capable of obeying the first time, but only if that's the way you train them.

I guess some would also say that we're more "authoritarian", but honestly, I just call it loving my kids. Training my children respect and obedience is loving them, and increases their self esteem.

Good luck to you!

It sounds like you are describing something children are capable of the majority of the time rather than your reaction when your children decide not to listen. Even really compliant children have times when they dawdle and don't comply immediately. I really doubt that there is not some type of verbal or nonverbal cue that your children have picked up on when they are in the dawdling mood to tell them that you are serious and that it is time for them to listen right away.

Nonverbal cues work the same way as verbal cues and allow the child to stay engaged in their task until they see that things are going to get ugly if they don't listen. I prefer having a verbal cue system set up so I don't have to get frustrated and cranky when my child fails to pick up on any nonverbal cues I set up.

Your claim that giving cues makes for a stressful situation for the parent is a very broad claim. This really depends on how the parent uses cues and how aware they are of the cues they are using. It sounds like you are describing a situation in which the parent doesn't know they are giving cues, perhaps one from a negative cycle you have fallen in and found stressful. I think that does raise a valid point about how important it is to be aware of the cues you use, how many times you use them, and how the cues are making you feel. It does not mean that everyone experiences stress from using cues, or even from occasionally repeating themselves. Life with one or two children is much different from life with four going on five children.


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## KBinSATX (Jan 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think that counting can be useful if you make it clear to your child that when you reach a specific number you are going to come over and help them get a task done. You can help a child cooperate in gentle ways with a gentle tone. If counting makes you angry then you shouldn't do it, but if you can do it in a calm and matter of fact way then I think it can be a great thing. I also think it helps kids learn their numbers.

ITA


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## Mrs_Hos (May 3, 2004)

We count...and we LOVE IT

However, we do it as a challenge...

"Ok dd, it's time to head home!"

"But mom! I'm not done playing yet!"

"I know hon, but we need to get back home to see Daddy. I bet you can't get your shoes and coat on before I count to 10...on your mark, get set, 1...2...3...4...5...6...7......"

"YOU DID IT! Wow you're fast!"

I've done this since she was little...she is 6 now...


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## ilovebabies (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
Your claim that giving cues makes for a stressful situation for the parent is a very broad claim. This really depends on how the parent uses cues and how aware they are of the cues they are using. It sounds like you are describing a situation in which the parent doesn't know they are giving cues, perhaps one from a negative cycle you have fallen in and found stressful. I think that does raise a valid point about how important it is to be aware of the cues you use, how many times you use them, and how the cues are making you feel. It does not mean that everyone experiences stress from using cues, or even from occasionally repeating themselves. Life with one or two children is much different from life with four going on five children.

I hear ya, but it's really not that complicated or psychological.








And just because my post makes you feel uncomfortable or you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I've fallen into a negative cycle that I found stressful.

The op asked if we count to 3 and I was answering her question.









What I'm saying in a nutshell is that we choose not to because we expect immediate obedience and we train our children to immediately obey, especially in certain situations. As I said in both my posts (please go back and read them), there are always exceptions, and there are sometimes different approaches. I even said in my first post that there are too many different situations to name. I LOVE what Mrs. Hos just posted and I totally agree with that as well! We do that too sometimes! We make it fun, a game, a race, and sometimes not, again, depending on the situation. It all depends on the situation, the child, what's going on, etc... But *for us*, and especially having a larger family, sometimes I need to be able to say, "Get your shoes on right now please" and my child immediately obey. Are there "verbal cues" to let him know I'm "serious"? Yes, of course. We are in tune enough with our children, and they with us, to know differences. It's all part of training them.

And yes, of course all children (compliant or not) will not obey sometimes. I didn't find it necessary to post the obvious.









If counting to 3 works for you and you don't find it stressful, then great! Do what works for you. My post was aimed at those who may find it to be and would like an alternative.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't count. I don't expect respecting-a-child to look, feel or sound like respecting-an-adult, but there is something about counting that feels disrespectful to me ... to be perfectly honest, my dislike of it goes beyond what I can articulate. I was mostly reading this thread to see if someone else could name what it is that rubs me the wrong way about it so much!

Anyway, I do a few things and of course they've evolved as my dc has gotten older. I give ETAs: "We have to leave in five minutes. When you get to a stopping point, put on your shoes so we can go." So that way I set the expectation whithout any expectation of doing it now. Then I try to give one more ETA: "Two more minutes! Do your very last thing and then we will go." Then I will probably model putting on my shoes, then take his hand and walk him to the shoes without any more discussion. If I am getting pushback I will repeat that we need to go and why, and if that doesn't end the discussing, I'll boil it down to "Your shoes need to go on. _You_ can put them on or _I_ can put them on."

It's not as coercion-free as I'd prefer, but frankly, on us, consensual living degenerates into child holding veto power, and I'm not willing to wait that out, or clever enough to reframe it acceptably when he's tired / hungry / overstimulated, or patient enough to let go of my agenda long enough to let the consensus happen, or whatever alchemy it would take.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

"1--2--" means that even though normally we can take our time, this needs to be done ASAP for whatever reason, even if it's just "so mommy doesn't get frustrated."

I only recall it being used like 10 times total in my childhood for me or my little brother. Also, apparently the count only reached 3 once for each of us.

Anyway, I plan to include it as one of my parenting tools, but I'm also prepared for it to not be something that works with all or any of our children.

ETA:
We also had 10 and 5 minute warnings to help transition from things. Like playing at the park, first there'd be a casual "remember we need to go grocery shopping today" (or whatever) then "10 minute warning" then "5 minute warning"--usually just a hand signal--sometimes we'd get 2-minutes as well to waylay us from starting something more involved or farther away (obviously this was when we were older). And 5-minutes could be anything from 2 minutes to 10 minutes depending on what we were doing and when we'd be best able to stop.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

I was using counting for a little while recently. I would say to DD (3), "I need you to get in your carseat now. If you haven't done it by the time I count to 3, I'll do it for you." Then I would start to count, and it almost always worked immediately.

However, I just don't like the counting. It frustrated me, and when I looked at it, it's not necessary. Now I simply say, "I need you to get in your carseat now. If you don't do it, I'll do it for you." I pause a moment to let her do it, and if she doesn't, I do it. I feel like the counting is an unnecessary part of the process.

ETA: I don't like counting at all when it's used as just counting with no specified consequence, b/c that seems to be playing on fear.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

We don't count. I can't articulate why, either; but it was one of the few things (besides spanking) I promised myself I would never do as a parent. And I haven't! I would hear other parents doing it and it just kind of, I don't know, embarrassed me for the parent or something. But that's not really it, either. It just always looked like nobody was in control of the situation and parent and child both seemed to get angry pretty quickly with it. It also has amazed me how fast parents will start the counting if their kids don't comply with something. There are parents who come to pick their kid up at dd's preschool and seem to start counting the second they are in the door. I'm sure that's not the case here, but it's what I associate counting with. I'm also never really sure what's going to happen to the kids if the parent does get to three.

Dd does finish counting for other parents and I really, really try not to smile. They will start "1,2,..." and Dd will deadpan "...3."







Doesn't help the situation at all and I guess I should really tell dd what parents are trying to accomplish in those situations.

Having said that, it's not like I know what TO do when dd won't comply. I'm sometimes at a loss, since I don't do time-outs or taking privileges away, either. But it's mostly good. Someone mentioned something about "do one last thing you want before we leave" and we do that with good success. I want her to feel she has power and choice, too.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

I usually don't count. Sometimes I will count when I feel that it will help ds to focus on his "job" at hand (putting on his shoes, for example), but it doesn't seem to be the most effective method. It's often better to get his attention with eye contact and a quiet whisper. If he is just being a bit hyperactive, that will sometimes do the trick. When he is deliberately wishing to aggravate, I'll simply go to the next room and say he can come with me when his job is finished. With no audience for misbehavior, he doesn't keep it up for long.

He's also fiercely independent about certain tasks, so another effective response is to tell him that if he doesn't do it, I will gladly help! At 3.5, he is all about being a "big boy", so the idea of help is quite unappealing.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I think counting is a fine technique as long as the result of noncompliance is the parent helping the child do the thing, rather than some type of punishment. Oh, and if you start counting, you HAVE to follow through! Every so often I'll see a parent who strings the numbers really far apart and then does "two and a half...two and two thirds..." just waiting for compliance with no other strategy in mind, or a parent who gives up on getting it to happen if the child doesn't respond.









I wrote an article on how counting worked with my kid and one on how it stopped working.

Quote:

We expect immediate obedience. Children learn quickly when you "really mean it" and when they can stall. If you count to 3 all the time, they will never take you seriously the first time because they know that until you count, they don't have to listen.
We EXPECT immediate obedience, too! We just don't always get it. We never were counting to 3 "all the time"; we were saving it for those times when he didn't respond right away.

Quote:

"DS, do you want to come over here by yourself, or do you want me to help you?" I start counting when that doesn't work and they usually come over by '2'. If I get to three then I get up and take them by the hand and walk them over to where I wanted them in the first place. But does it seem kinda pointless to anybody else? I mean, why didn't I just get off my lazy butt and go to them in the first place?
Because you don't want to do everything for them forever; you want them to develop the ability to do what you ask on their own initiative.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I tried it. It worked about 5 times and then my son started shrieking "don't count!" if I took a breath to start. Ha. He's actually a generally jolly compliant kid. Until he isn't. We've more or less worked it out in other ways.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't count. I'll ask dd to do things a couple of times and if she isn't able to, I'll help her. Counting just seems unnecessary, like an extra step. I've seen friends whose kids' don't do anything unless their parents count.


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think that counting can be useful if you make it clear to your child that when you reach a specific number you are going to come over and help them get a task done. You can help a child cooperate in gentle ways with a gentle tone. If counting makes you angry then you shouldn't do it, but if you can do it in a calm and matter of fact way then I think it can be a great thing. I also think it helps kids learn their numbers. I used to count to ten but now that dd is older I count backwards from ten and sometimes I count by 2's to 20.

Yeah, this is what I do as well. I am offering her a choice - "do it by yourself, or I can help you." GENTLY. Things like putting on shoes and whatnot. She's pretty big into ignoring me and so that counting down helps alert her that things are needing to get moving. Sometimes she chooses for me to help her - which is fine with me, I just want her to have the option of autonomy or, if she doesn't feel like it for whatever reason, I'll help. We do lots of helping back and forth around here, so it's definitely not a coercive situation.


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## COVegMom (Mar 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu* 
I don't count. I don't expect respecting-a-child to look, feel or sound like respecting-an-adult, but there is something about counting that feels disrespectful to me ... to be perfectly honest, my dislike of it goes beyond what I can articulate. I was mostly reading this thread to see if someone else could name what it is that rubs me the wrong way about it so much!

Anyway, I do a few things and of course they've evolved as my dc has gotten older. I give ETAs: "We have to leave in five minutes. When you get to a stopping point, put on your shoes so we can go." So that way I set the expectation whithout any expectation of doing it now. Then I try to give one more ETA: "Two more minutes! Do your very last thing and then we will go." Then I will probably model putting on my shoes, then take his hand and walk him to the shoes without any more discussion. If I am getting pushback I will repeat that we need to go and why, and if that doesn't end the discussing, I'll boil it down to "Your shoes need to go on. _You_ can put them on or _I_ can put them on."

It's not as coercion-free as I'd prefer, but frankly, on us, consensual living degenerates into child holding veto power, and I'm not willing to wait that out, or clever enough to reframe it acceptably when he's tired / hungry / overstimulated, or patient enough to let go of my agenda long enough to let the consensus happen, or whatever alchemy it would take.

Yes, this is our approach as well.

I think that if you are choosing to use coercion, even if it is as gentle as putting a mildly annoyed child's shoes on because you need to leave for an appointment, you should let it be clear that that's what you are doing.

Giving the choice of doing it yourself now or letting me do it after I count to X is not really a choice. Even if the child "chooses" to do it now on his/her own, it is still a coercion because it is going to happen one way or another so it is a pseudo-choice IMO.

So if you are going to enforce something, I believe you should allow the child to express freely that they object and all of the emotions that go with being forced to do something they don't want to do.

ETA: I think counting also can tend to set up a dynamic where kids learn to dread the countdown and put everything off until the last warning and the last count. This seems like the opposite of what parents are usually trying to achieve, which is to be taken seriously when they ask a child to do something important/necessary.

My goal with GD is to create the kind of loving, respectful, and trusting relationship where, when I say "no" or ask my child to do or not do something, s/he is able to believe that it is for a really good reason. (It is NOT my goal to raise a child who obeys immediately or always follows orders!) Creating a false consensus by sheer power of will (waiting so long the child is exhausted and can't fight it anymore or offering pseudo-choices where there really is no option to reject what you are asking) undermines this trust and respect IMO.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

My goal with GD is to create the kind of loving, respectful, and trusting relationship where, when I say "no" or ask my child to do or not do something, s/he is able to believe that it is for a really good reason.
Isn't that most people's goal with GD?









What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 _and I don't expect her to be._ I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it _is_ coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

I try not to count....*but if I count I count to 1*. For whatever reason, my DD1 has never caused me to go beyond 1. Perhaps it's the tone in my voice. Since I don't believe in counting, if she's done something that makes me count, she's pissed me off.

xoe


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

I understand that kids must listen to their parents when there is an immediate danger or go somewhere and shouldn't be late

BUT

to those who train their children to obey, don't you wonder if they will obey other adults without questioning, or their boss/husband/wife when they grow up? Or do you expect them to obey only you and magically be able to stand up for themselves in other situations?


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Transylvania....honestly, I do think DD1 will obey other people unless she somehow developes a spin of her own. Something about that child....you don't have to do or say much to get her to comply. She seems to have a people pleaser's nature. Hopefully, over time, I can teach her to stand up for herself. But you can't always change some character traits. My DH isn't a very tough person, either, to put it politely.

xoe


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
Transylvania....honestly, I do think DD1 will obey other people unless she somehow developes a spin of her own. Something about that child....you don't have to do or say much to get her to comply. She seems to have a people pleaser's nature. Hopefully, over time, I can teach her to stand up for herself. But you can't always change some character traits. My DH isn't a very tough person, either, to put it politely.

xoe

oh, I was asking especially the people who replied to this thread saying that they train their children to obey and expect instant obedience.
I understand the arguments in favour of counting as a transition tool or distraction for some children. It wouldn't work with my son as he would simply wait to see what I'll do when I get to 3


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
I understand that kids must listen to their parents when there is an immediate danger or go somewhere and shouldn't be late

BUT

to those who train their children to obey, don't you wonder if they will obey other adults without questioning, or their boss/husband/wife when they grow up? Or do you expect them to obey only you and magically be able to stand up for themselves in other situations?

There are millions of people who are raised to obey parents immediately. It doesn't mean they can't stand up for themselves. I was raised this way and I stand up for myself. I don't think that one causes the other.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Isn't that most people's goal with GD?









What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 _and I don't expect her to be._ I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, *I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it is coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it.* When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave









Thank you, thank you, thank you for this! Great, articulate response that sums up how I feel completely! Especially the bolded part, which articulates what I've been trying think/write/say for ages now re: some aspects of CL (and we are CL around 80% of the time around here!).


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Isn't that most people's goal with GD?









What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 _and I don't expect her to be._ I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it _is_ coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave










yes,yes yes!
i agree with this 100%!


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
There are millions of people who are raised to obey parents immediately. It doesn't mean they can't stand up for themselves. I was raised this way and I stand up for myself. I don't think that one causes the other.

Millions? How do you know that?
My experience is quite different. I've seen lots of people (I wouldn't say millions) who were trained to obey and continued to do so in their adult life.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

yes i do it but my way works







i dont use it as a form of punishment when i reach 3 ur going to get XX this method actually helps me avoid battles and makes things move much smoother in this home...

i dont do 1-2-3. i deside how long depending on the situatuation how long to wait inbetween.

if i say i am leaving a store after standing there for xx minutes waiting on you looking at something. i have said lets go, time to go, lets go look at __, we have to go we are going to be late how many times so when i count to 3 i am walking away.

if i am out with my bestfriend and her 2 plus my 2 and they are running around i am not yelling out their names ____ come here 4 times. i will say 1.........2........3 and that just tells them that i want them back by my side.

if my 2 are fighting i give them count to 3 and if they dont stop fighting of XX i will step in.

this method works for my family because both my children hate someone to come and touch them (taking their hand/picked up) or sometimes even coming to them and saying "its time to go". the counting lets them know time is running out finish whatever and come. seriously i have a boy who would be amazing for horor movies with his high peircing scream and this avoids it for the most part.


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## COVegMom (Mar 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Isn't that most people's goal with GD?









I think so, but I see some people saying in this thread that they want to train their children to obey immediately and that seems like they may have a different goal, like to be respected as the parent/authority figure. Maybe I am reading too much into that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship.

I don't doubt this. I am not criticizing anyone here or their parenting. I am just trying to offer another perspective. The OP and a few others seem a little uncomfortable about using this method and I am trying (rather awkwardly it appears) to explain why I am uncomfortable with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it _is_ coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

I think I am having trouble seeing how these two situations are really different (except that obviously one involves saftey and is more urgent). In both situations there is only one solution that is acceptable to you, i.e. not riding the bike down the stairs and getting the shoes on the feet. I am not saying that this is unreasonable. I think where I am getting hung up is that I see "helping" as assisting someone with something they WANT to do and are unable to or are having difficulty doing. If the person does not want to do it, it is not help it is force IMO. It may be gentle, reasonable, empathetic force, but is nevertheless a coercion. I get really uncomfortable with calling coercion something else (like calling punishment "logical consequences").

I'm not trying to pick on you Captain_Crunchy, you just offered some good examples to talk about and I'm not feeling creative enough to come up with my own.














And again, I don't mean to criticize anyone, just trying to offer another perspective. Discussions wouldn't be very informative if we all agreed all the time.







I had never heard of counting being used as a transition and I can see how that could work for some kids, like singing a song, or other transition activities.


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## MamaKalena (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
We count. I count to 10 when its time to leave a place. Though now I have graduated to a visual 60 second timer. DS needs a lot of help with transitions...that is, moving from one activity to the other - this might be from leaving the house to go to the playground, leaving the playground to go have lunch, etc.
BUT - and a big but here... I do *not* do anything to my DS if said time is up and he does not budge. A lot of people who I know who 'count' - then do something to their child if they didnt do said request. Be it spanking them, punishing them, physically forcing them, etc. DS has decided he was not ready to go and needed a bit more help with the transition a handful of times. Other than that, I have no problem with it. He knows I wont do anything to him. There is no obligation there. I just use it to help with the transition (and it really does help, beside the fact he has SPD and I suspect an ASD - most small children do need some help with transitions). If I felt I needed to use it to control DS, then I would have to take a step back and look a bit deeper at the issue at hand. (which means you would have to get more specific about what your child is not doing that you are requesting of them). Most people that I see who use 'counting' to _control_ their child (besides how I use it, thats how they _do_ use it) - use it as a quick fix to get their child to comply quickly to their wishes. They give them the _false choice_ of either doing A or getting B (which is always a punishment of some kind). - That, I _do no__t_ agree with.

We also use counting to help with transitions, like putting on his shoes and getting ready to go somewhere or coming to the table to eat lunch. DS has a harder time with transitions than the average kid and is also easily frustrated and very inflexible in general about almost everything all the time, so he needs extra help detaching himself from things. The casual "two more minutes" warning that I hear other parents use loosely at the playground NEVER works for us.

I try and make it fun and count in tickles. (i.e. one tickle, two tickles, three tickles). And then I really do tickle him. Sometimes I ask him where he wants his tickles, like under his armpits or on his head. He loves it and it **usually** works and keeps him in good spirits. But sometimes he has a meltdown when I start counting and screams his head off. Then I have to figure something else out. But first I try the tickle counting and pray that it works


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
Millions? How do you know that?
My experience is quite different. I've seen lots of people (I wouldn't say millions) who were trained to obey and continued to do so in their adult life.

I think it's about teaching the kids to recognize legitimate requests from legitimate authority. For example, teaching your kids that it's a good thing to listen to the bus-driver when s/he says "no standing up on the seats" or listening to your parents when they say "time to brush teeth" or the teacher to "stop talking w/ your neighbor so all the children can listen to the story teacher is reading aloud", or from the neighbor "don't play soccer in front of my plate glass windows" is following legitimate requests that serve the child or the greater community.

Ar the same time, you also teach them that illegitimate requests from legitimate authority should be ignored or refused. If a bigger kid tells you in the playground "go kick so-and-so" you should refuse. If best-friend asks you to do their homework for them, you should refuse, and so forth.

It's subtle and also a constant learning process. It requires dialog. As children get older, it's a fun thing to discuss at the dinner table - examples of when someone should question authority and when it's not appropriate or right; when it's right and proper to sacrifice one's preferences or desires for "the greater good", and when it's not right.

For example, recently in the LegCo one of the legislators (a member of the League of Social Democrats) threw a banana at one of the members of Govt. during a debate on increasing the old age benefit known as fruit money. My take on it was that it was right and proper to question the Govt. official and to tell him what he was suggesting was wrong, but that throwing the banana in the LegCo chamber was wrong. Discussed it w/ the kids -what do THEY think about it.

Lots of learning and thinking opportunities in the years that they grow up.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaKalena* 
We also use counting to help with transitions, like putting on his shoes and getting ready to go somewhere or coming to the table to eat lunch. DS has a harder time with transitions than the average kid and is also easily frustrated and very inflexible in general about almost everything all the time, so he needs extra help detaching himself from things. The casual "two more minutes" warning that I hear other parents use loosely at the playground NEVER works for us.

Part of it working is in watching the kid for signs that they're ready to transition and not actually timing out 2 minutes. But, yeah, I could totally see needing to be right there with a kid to work together on transitioning.


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## SusieRain (Jun 15, 2007)

I use a timer a lot but I do not count. I will often set the timer for 10 minutes and tell the children that all the toys should be off the floor by time we hear the buzzer. Then, we can do something together. Or something similar to this. It is great to help them move from one activity to the next.


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## MoonStarFalling (Nov 4, 2004)

We tried counting but it didn't work. It just made ds hysterical. If it's serious then I don't take the time to count. I just help him out right away. If it's not serious then I use a timer. I'll set it for 10 mins and tell him you have this much time to get dressed so we can go. Seems to work great for him.


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## Tdunahoo (Apr 10, 2008)

My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.


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## ~mermommy~ (Nov 7, 2008)

Why are you giving your child 3 opportunities to disobey? You are saying to your child, "You don't need to listen to me know, but soon you will".

Your children are smarter then you are giving them credit for if you are counting. They can hear you. They can understand you. They are smart enough to listen the first time. You are only making yourself upset that they aren't listening.


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## MamaKalena (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tdunahoo* 
My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.









I usually give advance warnings approx. 10, 20, and 30 minutes before we need to leave and explain that we need to start getting ready to go to gymnastics, park, etc. so as not to surprise him. During this time, I am usually helping him get dressed or brush his teeth while he plays. I don't start counting until I am packed and ready to walk out the door and I really need him to get his shoes on.

And no, he never puts his shoes on himself. (Although I know he can do it himself when he really wants to go outside and he thinks I'm not there, because I've seen him do it.) But (sigh) he rarely ever will do it himself when I'm around. So I do it for him or start the process for him and ask him to tighten the velcro. I don't start counting unless he refuses to stop playing to come and sit by the door so I can help him put his shoes on.

When he DOESN'T come after counting and we are seriously in a hurry and will be late then I usually say, "Okay, I'm starting to get VERY frustrated that you aren't helping me get your shoes on." That works sometimes. If we aren't in a hurry and I have the time and patience, I'll tell a story or something really interesting, like I am a car with eyes and mouth who can talk and that ALWAYS works, and he will come running. But it takes a lot of energy on my behalf to do that every single time I need him to get his shoes on, so it's not a realistic solution for every day situations, KWIM.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

I have found counting to be helpful when kids are taking turns. It gives the waiting kid something to do while waiting, plus reassurance that they won't have to wait forever, and it helps the other kid wind down their turn and get ready for the transition.

I've also found it helpful to say "okay, go down the slide three more times and then we'll go," and then count trips down the slide.

I use timed warnings a lot: "we're going to leave in five minutes... two minutes... one minute... okay, let's go." Or I'll let her know what the sequence is going to be: "when you finish your show, it's going to be time to put on shoes and walk out the door."

I don't count as a warning. It feels too much like I'm saying "feel free to not listen to me until I get to three." If I tell her to stop blowing bubbles in her milk, and she continues to blow bubbles in her milk, I just remove the cup. I don't give her the count-of-three to stop.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tdunahoo* 
My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.









I'm also very curious about this. Are there any threads on the subject?


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## gabry (Jan 21, 2004)

I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to give my take on the question re. what if they don't put on their shoes?
I've taken kids in the car/ on my bike/ in the stroller many times without shoes (or jackets, hats, whatever) and then put them on later (or never, depending on the situation). For some reason it's never a problem later. I guess they forget their objections or feel satisfied they were heard the first time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "you don't believe in helping them"? Especially a 3 year old? Heck, my five year old still asks me to help him regularly, and I don't mind usually.


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## Tdunahoo (Apr 10, 2008)

What I meant by "you don't believe in helping them" was that after reading some of the posts on this thread it seemed like some of the parents believe even saying "ok, i'm getting frusterated so either you can put on your shoes now or I can help you" is not an appropriate response because you're forcing them to do something they don't want to do and so I was asking those parents what they do in a situation when they actually need to be somewhere.


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## COVegMom (Mar 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tdunahoo* 
What I meant by "you don't believe in helping them" was that after reading some of the posts on this thread it seemed like some of the parents believe even saying "ok, i'm getting frusterated so either you can put on your shoes now or I can help you" is not an appropriate response because you're forcing them to do something they don't want to do and so I was asking those parents what they do in a situation when they actually need to be somewhere.

I didn't say it was inappropriate, I said it was not consensual.

If we were leaving and ds did not want to put his shoes on, I would just bring them with us. Maybe he feels too hot to put them on right now, but he won't mind putting them on before we get out of the car at our destination. Maybe once he steps outside and feels the temperature, he'll decide he wants them afterall. ETA: I have also let him feel the glass storm door or open the door to feel the air outside so he knows what the weather is like. Sometimes he doesn't wear as much clothing as I think he should but he seems comfortable. Where was it I heard someone say? "I'm cold, you need to put on a sweater."









Or if for some reason I think it is unsafe or really inappropriate for him to not be wearing shoes and after explaining this, he still does not want to put them on then I will do it. BUT I will not pretend that it was his choice for me to put them on him and I will empathize and I will allow him to express his emotions about being forced to wear shoes. I don't think that just because it is not consensual necessarily means that it is wrong or is not gentle parenting. I do however want to make no illusions about it when my choice is overriding his. Sometimes you just have to wear shoes, it doesn't mean you have to like. These situations are not very frequent though.

ETA: I didn't mean to make a huge deal about putting on shoes. Unless you are constantly screaming at your child about putting their shoes on, I hardly think this is the kind of thing that is going to damage you for life. I was just trying to explain why I am uncomfortable using the counting technique--I feel like it gives an illusion of choice when there is really only one acceptable outcome and no option for the child to alter that outcome. Now why couldn't I just say it like that the first time.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *COVegMom* 
Or if for some reason I think it is unsafe or really inappropriate for him to not be wearing shoes and after explaining this, he still does not want to put them on then I will do it. BUT I will not pretend that it was his choice for me to put them on him and I will empathize and I will allow him to express his emotions about being forced to wear shoes.

What we do in situations like this is similar, although I do frame it as a choice (because he DOES have a choice, it's just an extremely limited one). "You need to have your shoes on. You can put them on yourself, or Mommy can do it for you." When he doesn't put them on, then I go and do it for him, but I'm not going to say "Hey, you choose for Mommy to do it!" when he fusses about it, I'm going to say "I know you didn't want shoes right now, this stinks." Either way it's coercive, yes, but I can give him the option of avoiding the physical coercion if he prefers.

Of course in our case it's never putting shoes ON that's the problem, it's taking them off that's the issue


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## Tdunahoo (Apr 10, 2008)

Coveg- Thanks for answering my questions!


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## COVegMom (Mar 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
What we do in situations like this is similar, although I do frame it as a choice (because he DOES have a choice, it's just an extremely limited one). "You need to have your shoes on. You can put them on yourself, or Mommy can do it for you." When he doesn't put them on, then I go and do it for him, but I'm not going to say "Hey, you choose for Mommy to do it!" when he fusses about it, I'm going to say "I know you didn't want shoes right now, this stinks." Either way it's coercive, yes, but I can give him the option of avoiding the physical coercion if he prefers.

Of course in our case it's never putting shoes ON that's the problem, it's taking them off that's the issue









Good point!


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
What we do in situations like this is similar, although I do frame it as a choice (because he DOES have a choice, it's just an extremely limited one). "You need to have your shoes on. You can put them on yourself, or Mommy can do it for you." When he doesn't put them on, then I go and do it for him, but I'm not going to say "Hey, you choose for Mommy to do it!" when he fusses about it, I'm going to say "I know you didn't want shoes right now, this stinks." Either way it's coercive, yes, but I can give him the option of avoiding the physical coercion if he prefers.

Of course in our case it's never putting shoes ON that's the problem, it's taking them off that's the issue









i give choices of which one. never the you dont have to wear them but then maybe this is why we have more then one pair of shoe, boots, sandles (packed away now) and robeez. you need to put something on your feet because we are going out go pick a pair of shoes no robeez because it is too cold for them. simple and this i use on my 25 month old ds been doing it for months. works everytime because he wants to go outside and knows that they have to be on to go


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## MamaKalena (Jun 17, 2005)

COVegMom;12659023 I was just trying to explain why I am uncomfortable using the counting technique--I feel like it gives an illusion of choice when there is really only one acceptable outcome and no option for the child to alter that outcome. Now why couldn't I just say it like that the first time. [IMG alt="" said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


I don't see it that way at all. I use counting because DS can't read the clock and has no concept of time. I am his clock


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

We count in a playful way.ie 'Time to brush your teeth' DD: Just a minute mommy i need to color this. me or dh: ok but it's time to go dd: mommy just a minute!! me or dh: Bet you can't get in there by the time i count to three...ONE (very slowly) TWO......Ohman!! You always beat me to the bathroom. How did you do that?! you NEVER let us get to three- you are TOO fast!! Like that...


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

Counting seems to work really well for Libby, who is 3.5 (43 months--she'll be 4 in April). I've never threatened anything that I didn't follow through with, and I always make my intentions clear, ie, "Libby, we're going to ____." "No." "Okay, if you don't do ____ by the time mummy counts to three, mummy will do _____ for you and you will get _____ taken away." It seems to work for us, and I've never had to take anything away.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I don't count in the traditional sense of "if you don't X by the time I count 3, I'll Y." Like other posters here, I have a hard time articulating exactly why it bothers me so much, but I literally cringe when I hear that "Onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne........" I guess at its base, in the traditional form its used, it's a threat and it's punitive (cause usually 3 = loss of some privilege or being punished some other way), which are both things I try to largely stay away from in my parenting. For me, it's also about the tone and posture in a traditional 1, 2, 3 count - it's usually done from afar, from above, and with a scolding kind of tone. I prefer to go to my kids when they're not listening to me.

I also feel like it places the "blame" on the child, for making a bad choice not listening to the parent, instead of the parent taking responsibility for whatever it is needs to be done and getting it done in a calm, gentle, but firm manner (which IMO teaches a child to listen to you far better than any amount of counting). Its almost as if you can hear in the parents' voice when they get to three, "If you would have just listened to me, none of this would have happened". I am not a consensual parent and do compel my kids to do things, but I don't mask it in them "choosing" for me to do whatever it is; If I need something done and they don't want to do it, it's ME that wants it done, and ME that is making them do it - not them "choosing" me to do it.

The other examples people give of counting (counting turns, counting down slides before leaving a playground, etc) are all tools I have used, and have been useful in helping with transitions because they're a finite thing (counting down eventually has an end, and gives a concrete number to a child to expect). That kind of counting, or racing/turning into a game doesn't have any of the threatening or punitive feeling to it, IMO.

I'm pretty straightforward with my kids. If I need them to do something, I'll ask once, ask twice (mentioning to them it's the second time I've asked and I really need them to whatever), and then go to them and facilitate it happening. And that's it.

Some things that stood out to me

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I tried it. It worked about 5 times and then my son started shrieking "don't count!" if I took a breath to start.

I could totally see my DS doing this - he's very emotionally sensitive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *COVegMom* 
Yes, this is our approach as well.

I think that if you are choosing to use coercion, even if it is as gentle as putting a mildly annoyed child's shoes on because you need to leave for an appointment, you should let it be clear that that's what you are doing.

Giving the choice of doing it yourself now or letting me do it after I count to X is not really a choice. Even if the child "chooses" to do it now on his/her own, it is still a coercion because it is going to happen one way or another so it is a pseudo-choice IMO.

So if you are going to enforce something, I believe you should allow the child to express freely that they object and all of the emotions that go with being forced to do something they don't want to do.

ETA: I think counting also can tend to set up a dynamic where kids learn to dread the countdown and put everything off until the last warning and the last count. This seems like the opposite of what parents are usually trying to achieve, which is to be taken seriously when they ask a child to do something important/necessary.

Yes!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

See, I don't see this kind of counting as the same as the 1, 2, 3, consequence type of counting at all. I don't personally do it, but this wouldn't make me cringe like the traditional way does.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
*I don't count as a warning.* It feels too much like I'm saying "feel free to not listen to me until I get to three." If I tell her to stop blowing bubbles in her milk, and she continues to blow bubbles in her milk, I just remove the cup. I don't give her the count-of-three to stop.

YES (bolding mine). That's part of what bothers me too about it. Warning - thanks for giving me that word finally, I've been trying to get it. Threatening and warning. If you don't want them doing something, you don't want them doing something...not you only want them doing it 3 more times before they stop. And I have to disagree with the 'giving them chances' thing, in the under 5 crowd, I think they're just too young to get that.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tdunahoo* 
My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.









http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/magic-word


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~mermommy~* 
*Why are you giving your child 3 opportunities to disobey? You are saying to your child, "You don't need to listen to me know, but soon you will".*

Your children are smarter then you are giving them credit for if you are counting. They can hear you. They can understand you. They are smart enough to listen the first time. You are only making yourself upset that they aren't listening.


That is absolutely and unequivocably not how we use "1, 2, 3". Children don't need 3 oppertunities to disobey. They'll do it regardless and sometimes it has nothing to do with the deliberate intent to disobey. You're right. Children are smart. The have minds and wants and wills and desires and sometimes they do not coincide with what is safe, necessary or what their parents expect/want/need of them.

Counting to 3 is an opportunity for my children to make their own choices. It's an oppertunity to alter an inappropriate behaviour by themselves instead of me doing it physically for them. It's a challenge to set a time limit on something they are taking their time doing. It's a chance for them to take some responsibility and exert their own will. Of course, if they are in an unsafe situation or are doing something that jeopardizes their safety, we don't count or in any way negotiate. We remove them immediately. I believe that counting has a place in gentle discipline.

It is in no way giving them 3 chances to disobey.

There seems to be a common school of thought in many of the play groups I visit that children somehow have some kind of sinister intelligence and will to disobey/annoy their parents/get into mischief. Yes they're intelligent and yes they get into mischief, but it's not a consipracy to drive us insane. It only becomes a battle of wills if we make it so (and sometimes this is necessary if there is a threat to safety). Most of their behaviour is very age appropriate. That doesn't make it always appropriate in general, but it's important to remember that they're not little evil geniuses plotting our insanity







.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Depending on the situation, I have used natural consequences. For example, I've let my 2 year old go outside in -15C temperatures without a coat before because he was so resistant to putting it on. I brought it with me, and after about 2 minutes in the cold he was asking to put it on.

This isn't always convenient or safe, but in select situations, it works very well.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Counting to 3 is an opportunity for my children to make their own choices. It's an oppertunity to alter an inappropriate behaviour by themselves instead of me doing it physically for them. It's a challenge to set a time limit on something they are taking their time doing. It's a chance for them to take some responsibility and exert their own will. Of course, if they are in an unsafe situation or are doing something that jeopardizes their safety, we don't count or in any way negotiate. We remove them immediately. I believe that counting has a place in gentle discipline.

I guess I can kind of see your point; I guess it just seems to me like, not that it's 3 chances to disobey like the PP said, but it's that they have 3 chances until they *have* to listen to you (because you'll enforce it *after* you count to three). And that just seems strange to me...I either want them to listen to me because we have something to do, somewhere to go, something is dangerous, etc....or, it doesn't matter so I'm not asking them to do something anyway. I guess I just don't see the point of giving chances, challenges, etc. to a young child when developmentally they're usually not there yet anyway (which you pointed out in your post). I find it much, much less stressful for all of us to ask them to do something, repeat it one time, and then just do it with them. I get less aggravated, I don't feel like they're ignoring me (which I would DEFINITELY feel if I were counting and they weren't listening), and there isn't this, "oh no I have to do it by 3!" panic that I know my DS would feel.

This is probably an agree to disagree type of thing...


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Boy...about the shoes...apparently a lot of your children lead lives in which they never have to WALK anywhere.







We walk to the bus stop every day. I am already carrying 2 bags and my purse, so it's difficult to carry my 40-pound son as well, and it's impossible to carry him in a position that is comfortable for him. If I let him leave the house without shoes in the snow, never mind his safety, in seconds he'll start screaming about his wet socks and cold feet and it'll take another 15 minutes and a change of socks to calm him.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Boy...about the shoes...apparently a lot of your children lead lives in which they never have to WALK anywhere.







We walk to the bus stop every day.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing... It's possible to go out without mittens, and put them in my pocket for when he feels that he needs them. But very often we can't go out without woollen socks, shoes, jumper, snowsuit and hat. And it's not always possible to let the 2,75 year old stop us from going out. We can't stay in all day because he doesn't want to wear shoes... so those shoes (and clothes) just have to come on.







:

One thing I do which I find helps, is to open the door to the outside and get him dressed near it so he can feel that it's actually cold outside. Just telling him "it's cold outside" is often not enough at this young age.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Boy...about the shoes...apparently a lot of your children lead lives in which they never have to WALK anywhere.







We walk to the bus stop every day. I am already carrying 2 bags and my purse, so it's difficult to carry my 40-pound son as well, and it's impossible to carry him in a position that is comfortable for him. If I let him leave the house without shoes in the snow, never mind his safety, in seconds he'll start screaming about his wet socks and cold feet and it'll take another 15 minutes and a change of socks to calm him.

i was here thinking i was the only one who must take the bus. that is the ony way i can figure out how they have the option of taking the shoes with them.


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## Punchy Kaby (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovebabies* 
No, it's not crazy at all. You can train a child either way. You can either train them that you're not serious until you get to the "3" when counting, or you can teach them that you expect them to obey immediately. Kids are super smart. How many kids will totally ignore their parents until the mom raises her voice, starts to walk toward them, or starts counting, and then all the sudden they do what you asked? They have been trained to not take the parent seriously until this point (and believe me, children know what that point is with their parents). That's because they have been allowed to ignore the parent the first time, or second time, or whatever.

Picture the scenerio. Mom has said, "Bobby, it's time to put your shoes on now so we can leave." Bobby ignores mom and continues what he's doing. "Bobby, I said go get your shoes on for mommy." Again, ignored. "Bobby, I'm counting to 3 and you better go get your shoes on." Bobby ignores mom until... "Mommy's counting... one, two... two and a half....three!" Bobby finally obeys.


OK I seem to be stuck here and I don't know how to get out of this situation. What do I do after the first time I say, " we are going to go to the babysitters' please get your shoes." Is there something better to say? Let's say I just said this once and went and got the shoes to put on and then he is so wiggly I cannot get them on. If I try to get them on anyway he might start hitting me and all the time through this situation I am getting more and more angry. What do I do then? I usually give a 5 minute reminder when we are getting ready to leave so he is not surprised that we have to go. When I have to get to work I don't have the option of letting him dillydally.

I am trying to learn more about GD but I need a 'how-to' guide for my spirited 3 YO.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:

Counting to 3 is an opportunity for my children to make their own choices. It's an oppertunity to alter an inappropriate behaviour by themselves instead of me doing it physically for them. It's a challenge to set a time limit on something they are taking their time doing. It's a chance for them to take some responsibility and exert their own will. Of course, if they are in an unsafe situation or are doing something that jeopardizes their safety, we don't count or in any way negotiate. We remove them immediately. I believe that counting has a place in gentle discipline.

It is in no way giving them 3 chances to disobey.
I totally agree. That's how it works in our house.

I also think it depends on the personality of the child. My DD does not ignore me until I get to three. She hears me and begins to end whatever it is that needs to end. Then when I say three she stops and comes to me. But in counting to three, I give her the opportunity to finish what she was doing and then act on her own. For DH and I, it works beautifully and is not traumatic at all.

I put counting to three in the same category as time-outs: for some people it works well and for others it doesn't. Part of GD is finding out what works well with your particular children.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

For dd it is a mix between playful parenting (sometimes I count in a dramatic operatic voice for instance that makes dd laugh) and a concrete reminder that my patience is ticking down to zero and when I get to three, the negotionation portion of our decision-making is coming to a close









We don't do it every day even, just in limited and occasional situations and I 100% don't believe it negatively impacts dd in any way.


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