# how to deal with cps/dss?



## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

well, a lady from dss < department of social services, more commonly refered to as cps > just came by, i told my dh to tell her it wasnt a good time, i was in the bathtub.
in any case, im 99.9% certain my dd's father called them, as this past weekend
i upset him by informing him that our current visitation was changing < as it stands legally, its "as agreed upon by both parents" >. i can write more on that if neccessary.
the lady insists on coming back tomorrow. i of course have no desire to deal with this, but i guess its inevitable. my family insists that just letting them in and telling them what they want is the best thing, but its hard for me to give in that easy.
i would love some advice. experiance stories. whatever youve got.
thanks.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Read this http://www.geocities.com/family_righ...nts_guide.html

from start to finish.

You do not need to let them in without a warrant/court order.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Do you have any idea under what circumstance your ex called them?


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

When we had CPS called it was a major headache. At first we refused to let her in at all. Finally, we decided to let her walk into our living room and talk to my children at my kitchen table (she insisted that she had to speak to them privately, but I adamantly refused), and then she finally left.

Quite simple really, and our case was technically closed, however SHE felt we could benefit from further 'assistance' from them and passed our information onto another worker who 'insisted' that we HAD to comply with their 'recommendations' and allow them to 'help' us for 12 full months. It took months to get them out of our lives. We told them over and over our case was closed and we did not WANT their 'offered assistance' but the refused to take no for an answer.

I had no idea that one case could be closed and another opened with only one visit. If was finally finished because we refused to sign any papers at all (which is our right), we refused to allow them back into our house (they had no warrant and no right), we refused to allow them to talk to our children again, we refused to do anything beyond standing on our doorstep and telling them we did not want their 'assistance'.

I will never willingly open my door for them again. Without a court order, they will never speak to my children or see the inside of my home.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Do you have any idea under what circumstance your ex called them?

the only thing i know of is he said my daughter told him that my dh sat on her.

my dh hovered over her legs one day, while holding his weight with his feet and hands, to keep her from kicking.

anything else he or his family would have told them to open a case im unsure of.

i hope that answers the question.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Good advice. You do not have to do ANYTHING they tell you to do unless they have a warrant or court order. Protect your rights.

-Angela


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

dear eclipse, thank you for the wonderful link. if i can find some nc specific laws ill be doing really good. but for now ill just worry about the search warrant thing as i would be suprised if she were able to get a search warrant.

hopefully i can convince my daughter that talking to anyone, even if shes with her father, is not a good idea. i dont want to scare her though.

kidzaplenty, thank you for your story, its helpful and motivating.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Can the visitation arrangements be worked out to suit both you and your ex?


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Can the visitation arrangements be worked out to suit both you and your ex?

in short, no.
this is a whole long, involved story in itself. as vein as it sounds my ex's concerns have less to do with spending time with his daughter, and more to do with controlling my life. that sounds silly, but youd have to know what ive gone through for the past 6.5 < and more specifically 3.5 > years.

and to make it a little more simple < just a little >. he lives at home, his mother is the one that wants the visitation, but her son who coincidentally lives in her house is much more likely to be awarded whatever < from visitation to custody > so he plays a mean puppet.

i dont know, this is all to be dealt with in the court room. i just dont want cps, or any unnecessary authorities involved.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
that doesn't seem to me to be the best idea.. you want your kids talking to you and telling you what's happening, and i certainly want my son to feel like if anything ever actually happened to him at home he could talk to someone else about it (not that that's an issue, but it does happen, all the time, to lots of kids). your ex overreacting and / or spitefully calling cps on you is totally unrelated.

xoa

right. i know, its hard for me to know exactly how to explain whats ok and whats not. etc.
i think she knows, as well as a fairly reserved 6 year old could, that she can talk to me about whatever, and i know she has no problem talking to her father or his mother.
im not trying to scare her out of talking to people, just certain people.
i simply explained that anytime someone she doesnt personally know < i.e. is related to > asks her a question that makes her feel odd/uncomfortable, she does not have to answer it, and she can always tell anyone that she wants her mommy around, or even for her mom to answer the questions.

if you, or anyone, has suggestions on how to explain this better, or what have you, feel free to let me know. as ive never even spoke much of strangers to my child until now. we live in a small town, and shes very shy and reserved, the things id worry about happening to her with a "stereotypical" stranger would likely happen regardless of what i teach her. if that makes sense. but this isnt a "stereotypical" stranger im trying to vaugely warn her about.

someone at the store asking your name and address, is a little different than someone coming into a home you know and asking what you eat for dinner, or if your parents get angry. ive learned to trust noone, and question everything. as paranoid as that sounds, id like for her to have the same idea, as if i would have felt this way sooner in life i would have saved myself alot of mental and physical pain.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

My advice would be the opposite. When we were "abusing" our DS and our concerned neighbors called it in, despite my shock and terror, I let the case worker in and was as open and helpful as humanly possible. Neither DS nor DH were home or reachable, so I spent what felt like days talking to her, showing her pictures of DS, letting her talk to our ped over the phone, and letting her inspect our home. Yes, it was humiliating and horrible, but it left her confident that I had nothing to hide. By the time they got home, all she had to do was take a quick cursory look at DS and close the case.

What feeling does a case worker get by you denying her entry? She's already looking for trouble, and you are giving her more reason to suspect that it may actually exist. I would NOT want to give them any extra reason to think something might be fishy, no matter how innocent I may be.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

I agree with this advice. As the adoptive parent of a child who was removed from her birthfamily's home, I can tell you that the extent of abuse and neglect needed for cps to get involved (at least in my state) is very high.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
My advice would be the opposite. When we were "abusing" our DS and our concerned neighbors called it in, despite my shock and terror, I let the case worker in and was as open and helpful as humanly possible.

What feeling does a case worker get by you denying her entry? She's already looking for trouble, and you are giving her more reason to suspect that it may actually exist. I would NOT want to give them any extra reason to think something might be fishy, no matter how innocent I may be.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
My advice would be the opposite. When we were "abusing" our DS and our concerned neighbors called it in, despite my shock and terror, I let the case worker in and was as open and helpful as humanly possible. Neither DS nor DH were home or reachable, so I spent what felt like days talking to her, showing her pictures of DS, letting her talk to our ped over the phone, and letting her inspect our home. Yes, it was humiliating and horrible, but it left her confident that I had nothing to hide. By the time they got home, all she had to do was take a quick cursory look at DS and close the case.

What feeling does a case worker get by you denying her entry? She's already looking for trouble, and you are giving her more reason to suspect that it may actually exist. I would NOT want to give them any extra reason to think something might be fishy, no matter how innocent I may be.

this was alot like my familys advice, but the fact that its not a concerned neighbor, and it is her father, i want to avoid anyone working to his advantage, as they already have quite a bit more money to spend on a lawyer than i do < for our custody case > and this is relative, despite what cps has been told.

i know there are friendly, helpful workers out there. there are also those less helpful, with ill intent. i feel powerless in this country and im willing to do whatever i have to do to maintain what little power i have as a citizen.

why is it that as our country ages, were looked down upon more and more for exercising our rights? what were supposed to be so proud of in the first place. whats left to appreciate here? it sure as hell isnt the freedom.


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## lynnloves2 (Mar 24, 2007)

Because we are an alternative family (3 parents that live together), we have had to deal with CPS. They questioned us together and seperately, they questioned the children but only with us right there. When questioning the teens, they tried to put words in the teens mouths and turn their words around (from worker: you are on birth control you are sexually active; Daughter 16: no i am not sexually active, but I have thought about it, and want to be prepared when the time comes).

So no matter what the case, because of how words get turned around, I really believe that a parent needs to stay with the child. CPS visited the children at school, scared the hell out of them, refused to allow a school rep to be with them, yea, you can imagine I was not a happy mama!


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toyarmy* 
i know there are friendly, helpful workers out there. there are also those less helpful, with ill intent.

Even the friendliest case worker may well end up your enemy if you antagonize her or make her job harder. Being polite and gentle with her will only work in your favor. Be the one she sees as rational and calm, not secretive or combative. Let your ex be the one she sees as irrational.

I understand your anger. I really do.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynnloves2* 
Because we are an alternative family (3 parents that live together), we have had to deal with CPS.


Okay, I'm thinking how lucky your kids are! All the conservatives who say kids "deserve" a mother and a father should be thanking you for giving your kids a bonus parent. Clearly if two are better than one, three are better than two.

I need me a wife . . . .


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

if you did nothing then prove it open the door give her a cup of tea and chat with her show her that there is nothing wrong and all is well and that it was just misinformation from dd or dxh not asking her to explain herself beter (what do you mean he sat on you) get them in and out of your life as fast as posiable


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
if you did nothing then prove it open the door give her a cup of tea and chat with her show her that there is nothing wrong and all is well and that it was just misinformation from dd or dxh not asking her to explain herself beter (what do you mean he sat on you) get them in and out of your life as fast as posiable

Well, you see, that is the exact line of thought that kept them IN my life for months. I had nothing to hide, I did nothing wrong. I was very polite. And she caused the problems. She called the police and tried to get them to force their way into my house without a warrant. She tried to threaten us. She made the accusations, even after all the claims had been proven to be false.

Unfortunately, I have now had to deal with CPS several times, in several different states, due to different issues. I now know my rights and will stand firm on them.

Opening my door to these workers, even though they had no legal right to enter my house, gave them enough room to enter our lives and make a nightmare out of it.

Never again for us.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Be polite. Yes. BUT DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS. Yes, you may have the best caseworker in the world. Ask that they play by the rules.

You are NOT required to do ANYTHING unless they have a warrant or court order.

Abandon those rights and risk losing your children.

-Angela


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
My advice would be the opposite. When we were "abusing" our DS and our concerned neighbors called it in, despite my shock and terror, I let the case worker in and was as open and helpful as humanly possible. Neither DS nor DH were home or reachable, so I spent what felt like days talking to her, showing her pictures of DS, letting her talk to our ped over the phone, and letting her inspect our home. Yes, it was humiliating and horrible, but it left her confident that I had nothing to hide. By the time they got home, all she had to do was take a quick cursory look at DS and close the case.

What feeling does a case worker get by you denying her entry? She's already looking for trouble, and you are giving her more reason to suspect that it may actually exist. I would NOT want to give them any extra reason to think something might be fishy, no matter how innocent I may be.

Great point. Plus, I think that if you invite them in and get them on your side, you might get an ally. Let them know that your MIL wants custody and she's using your ex as a puppet. If the worker has a MIL, she's likely to get behind you and be helpful.
Good luck.
Lisa


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
Great point. Plus, I think that if you invite them in and get them on your side, you might get an ally. Let them know that your MIL wants custody and she's using your ex as a puppet. If the worker has a MIL, she's likely to get behind you and be helpful.
Good luck.
Lisa

When my evil SIL reported us AGAIN to CPS, I did exactly this. I was polite as we stood and talked. I tried to get them to tell me the source, but of course they would not. So I FINALLY got them to tell me what the charge was (which at first they refused to do). When she was reading the allegations, before she even read a quarter of the way through, I literally quoted, almost word for word, the remainder of the charge to her. My SIL had used the exact same wording with every call. I explained that my SIL was jealous and vindictive. I explained our antagonistic (on her part) relationship.

I then, let them see my house and my children. I was threatened with further action if my house was not 'cleaned and decluttered' within five days. I was threatened removal of my children and all sorts of other stupid threats.

And you know what they used to substantiate a 'part' of the allegation? MOVING BOXES that were stacked up all over the house! We were MOVING in three days (and would be totally gone before their 'dead line'). Yet we were warned and threatened because my house was 'cluttered'!









So just 'explaining' will not always do anything, even having a reasonable reason for the situation does not always do any good.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

thank you last 3 posters for not making me feel like a lunatic for wanting to preserve my rights.

i am innocent, i know that im innocent, i know there is no logical reason a case should be made for my family.
with that said, ive also learned through many a day in custody court, that anyone, can say nearly anything they want, they can do nearly anything they want. i am only one person. ive been forced to learn that being innocent and a good mom is not enough to keep people off my...

and alas, i hate the idea of succumbing to the new theme of "guilty until proven innocent". there needs to be a legitamate reason for them to come in and cause the stress on my family that i experianced as a child.

here are my experiances with cps. in my youth, i was raised by my aunt, next to her two sons. i recall multiple occassions where "concerned" neighbors, or whoever, would report my aunt to cps. my aunt is one of the best mothers ive ever known, ive known few people to show love for their children < and not children, me > as much as she did. i dont recall my aunt ever hitting me, she never insulted me, shes shown me nothing but unconditional love, yet we managed to have cases opened several times, and the ladies would come sit, for the day, ask questions, make us feel awkward. all because my aunt wanted to do the "right thing" and "cooperate" because she knew she was innocent. we never got taken into custody, but its memories i could stand not to have.

on top of that, i have a younger sister, who went into foster care for a month, for as far as im concerned, no good reason. my mother couldnt take care of her, that was obvious, but her father was more than willing and capable, yet they insisted she be in foster care while they "ivestigate" him and his situation.
the only fortunate thing is that she was too young to remember, but i wasnt.

how do i look so terrible if i want to defend my constitutional rights? why am i so wrong for being "american"?


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

for those in support of my rights, we were not home when she came by today, she left a note requesting we call her.
should i wait until she comes by again? or should i call her? and what should i say?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

In case you need these:

http://www.fightcpspackets.info/Pare...TheSystem.html

http://www.falseallegation.org/index.shtml

http://www.fightcps.com/

No advice. Good luck!


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Since you know that the report was made in retaliation for a disagreement about visitation issues, I wonder if you can get your lawyer to call on your behalf.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
Since you know that the report was made in retaliation for a disagreement about visitation issues, I wonder if you can get your lawyer to call on your behalf.

itd be nice if this were an option, but my last lawyer is no longer my lawyer, and i have yet to afford a new one. so i am without a lawyer at the moment. :\


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## mom3b1? (Jun 3, 2007)

They get a lot of calls like this. This sounds like a very simple situation, though there could be more not in your post. I'd clean up the house, and have everybody neat and tidy, then let her in. I'd explain about the visitation dispute. CPS gets this kind of thing a lot. Sometimes the best thing to do is hire a lawyer and not let them in, sometimes it's best to let them in and show them everything is OK. If they were going after you for homeschooling, homebirthing or something like that, where it's something you really did that they don't like, I'd go for the lawyer. If it's just a matter of an accusation that has nothing to do with reality, I'd probably talk to them.

Still, take this advice with a grain of salt. CPS can be very different in different areas, and what's right for one family in one location might not be in another.

Kiley


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom3b1?* 
They get a lot of calls like this. This sounds like a very simple situation, though there could be more not in your post. I'd clean up the house, and have everybody neat and tidy, then let her in. I'd explain about the visitation dispute. CPS gets this kind of thing a lot. Sometimes the best thing to do is hire a lawyer and not let them in, sometimes it's best to let them in and show them everything is OK. If they were going after you for homeschooling, homebirthing or something like that, where it's something you really did that they don't like, I'd go for the lawyer. If it's just a matter of an accusation that has nothing to do with reality, I'd probably talk to them.

Still, take this advice with a grain of salt. CPS can be very different in different areas, and what's right for one family in one location might not be in another.

Kiley

i do homeschool, and dd's bio dad doesnt fully agree, but hes accepted it. while i dont THINK its the motive, i dont doubt that it could come up. and in addition, i am pregnant, neither dd, or her dad know right now, few people know, but i do plan to have a UP and UC, and if they open a case, this too could become an issue as most cases run 6-12 months.

im not entirely sure what nc is like in regards to this stuff. i just have trouble with the idea of being nice to another person, so they can stab me in the back. im bitter, and this is the story of my life.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Do you have any access to a lawyer at all? Could you get one? (beg, borrow, find the money?) That would be your best bet. A lawyer who deals with this.

Otherwise I would probably wait until they contacted me again, go through the motions explained on some of the sites ("yes, of course I would love to cooperate, could I see your warrant or court order please?")

good luck!










-Angela


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

well, i was going to start scrounging together money to retain one for my custody case anyways. but thats a 3000$+ retainer, so it could be a while. we really cant afford to take out a loan. but it might come down to that :\ grr.

shameless site plug jes.7p.com. i have photos and make stuff. if you want to help, feel free.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

At one point we also were left a card and a number to call. This is what I did.

I called the number and set up a time for them to come and talk. (You do NOT want to talk at their office, you will lose your rights there much more quickly.) When they showed up, my house was clean, my children were dressed (and had shoes on, I have heard they look for that sort of thing), and I opened my door (so they could see into the house), politely walked out onto the porch, pointed out my children and introduced them, then politely shut the door behind me with my children inside, and talked on the porch.

I did not let them in, but they saw that things were neat and tidy, that the children were clean and well cared for, and that I was willing to talk. They did try and coerce me into letting them in. They threatened and harassed me, saying that they HAD to come in. But they never did. They had to document that they saw my healthy, well dressed children, and a clean house. Other than that, they only had what I stated to them.

The thing about waiting for them to drop back by, is that they have the upper hand and can catch you off guard. I preferred to keep the ball in my court and know when to expect them. Because you can be sure they will be coming back by. The point is, do you want to know when (on your terms) or not (on their terms)?

And I was told by a lawyer, do NOT sign anything. You do NOT HAVE to. Although they will try and make you. They tried to get us to sign at least a dozen sheets of papers, and then to have us sign a piece of paper saying we would not sign anything. But we politely refused. Be polite, but stand up for your rights. Your rights will only hold up if you stand up for them. If you open your self up and allow them to, they will strip every right you have away from you. That is what they are trained to do, 'in the best interest of the child'.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
At one point we also were left a card and a number to call. This is what I did.

I called the number and set up a time for them to come and talk. (You do NOT want to talk at their office, you will lose your rights there much more quickly.) When they showed up, my house was clean, my children were dressed (and had shoes on, I have heard they look for that sort of thing), and I opened my door (so they could see into the house), politely walked out onto the porch, pointed out my children and introduced them, then politely shut the door behind me with my children inside, and talked on the porch.

I did not let them in, but they saw that things were neat and tidy, that the children were clean and well cared for, and that I was willing to talk. They did try and coerce me into letting them in. They threatened and harassed me, saying that they HAD to come in. But they never did. They had to document that they saw my healthy, well dressed children, and a clean house. Other than that, they only had what I stated to them.

The thing about waiting for them to drop back by, is that they have the upper hand and can catch you off guard. I preferred to keep the ball in my court and know when to expect them. Because you can be sure they will be coming back by. The point is, do you want to know when (on your terms) or not (on their terms)?

And I was told by a lawyer, do NOT sign anything. You do NOT HAVE to. Although they will try and make you. They tried to get us to sign at least a dozen sheets of papers, and then to have us sign a piece of paper saying we would not sign anything. But we politely refused. Be polite, but stand up for your rights. Your rights will only hold up if you stand up for them. If you open your self up and allow them to, they will strip every right you have away from you. That is what they are trained to do, 'in the best interest of the child'.

thank you. this is incredibly helpful.
my husband did make the mistake of allowing her in yesterday, the house is lived in < cluttered >, he was in boxers and a shirt < i woke him up from his nap to get the door > and dd was also taking a nap, i was in the bathtub.

im not sure how much this could hurt me, but from everything i read, it worries me.

i plan to call her tomorrow, and try to keep things very general.
im so scared of the government. and im one of the most innocent people i know of. < dont drink, dont smoke, dont do drugs, married, attachment parent, gentle discipline, so on and so forth. > america makes me sad.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

yeah, i mentioned that she dosnt have to answer questions for ANYONE if they make her uncomfortable. but i dont want her to think im the bad guy. you see, his family is very very manipulative, and easy to trust. and since shes so spoiled there she already thinks im a bad mom for having rules and expectations.

away from that, there was a note left not only on my front door, but also on my side door. as well as two voicemails. she knows both mine and my husbands name, and my phone number.


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## toyarmy (May 8, 2007)

ok. the first lady just left. i told her a lawyer advised me not to let anyone in without a search warrant. she talked about calling a sherrif, then called her boss? who i guess told her it was fine to carry things out on the porch, blah blah.
so, she discussed the alligations, it was defanitely her father.
despite everything ive talked to my daughter about, she still talked to the lady, for the most part she did good though, but she did give some 6 year old answers "im not happy when they hurt me." of course after she left, i asked how we hurt her, she told me we hurt her heart when were mad at her. but of course the cps worker was content with her saying we "hurt" her.
so on and on, she fills out a "care plan" saying we will supervise my 6yo at ALL TIMES. "make arrangements if sleep is needed."
and "caregivers will cooperate with all social services recommendations."
she also explained that < my husbands in the military > they would be contacting the base family services or what have you, so that they could also, basically, get involved. i.e. get my husband in trouble.

i didnt sign the care plan. we are going to try to arrange a loan between tonight and tomorrow for a lawyer.

thank you for everyones advice.
id love to see more.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I hope you can get a lawyer soon! Then your lawyer can handle all future communications, and you'd only have meetings with them with your lawyer present.

As to the posters who think you should invite them in so they'll have a better feeling about you, and know you have nothing to hide -- it's not about how the *social worker* feels! It's about whether or not a *child* is being abused or neglected!

And if they "feel" more negatively toward those of us who assert our rights -- at least we're not giving them anything they can document. I'm puzzled by the poster who seemed to think the only way to be nice/polite was to let them in. I can smile and be polite while insisting we schedule a meeting in a neutral place (not their office, not my home).

You're not a bad or rude person by choosing not to have your home inspected. I'm eager to hear how things go.


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toyarmy* 
im not trying to scare her out of talking to people, just certain people. i simply explained that anytime someone she doesnt personally know < i.e. is related to > asks her a question that makes her feel odd/uncomfortable, she does not have to answer it, and she can always tell anyone that she wants her mommy around, or even for her mom to answer the questions.

i don't think this sounds like a good idea. abusers often tell children that the abuse is "our little secret" if you daghuter says "mommy said i shouldn't talk about what we do at home" it could sound really bad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
if you did nothing then prove it open the door give her a cup of tea and chat with her show her that there is nothing wrong and all is well and that it was just misinformation from dd or dxh not asking her to explain herself beter (what do you mean he sat on you) get them in and out of your life as fast as posiable

i agree with this - you did nothing wrong, don't be antagonistic.


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaspar* 

i agree with this - you did nothing wrong, don't be antagonistic.

I absolutely agree. I think it is important to remember that CPS is not a parent's enemy. The agency exists to protect children who are being mistreated, neglected and abused in their homes. Personally, I think it is wonderful that they take calls of concern seriously and follow up! Instead of focusing on how wronged you feel, remember that most of these social workers are actively trying to help abused children. Since your child is not being abused in any way then I don't see what you have to gain by being hard to contact and unhelpful. The quickest way to get them off your back is to show them that there is nothing wrong in your household or with your parenting.

I am not saying that there have never been over-zealous CPS workers, but for the most part these people are overworked and underpaid and I'm sure they would like to close as many files as they can if no abuse is present in a home.

JMO.


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

OK, I just saw the follow up post and I just want to add that I hope things go well with the lawyer. Best wishes.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JEB20005* 
I absolutely agree. I think it is important to remember that CPS is not a parent's enemy.

Did you even READ the post by Kidzaplenty? She started out being all nice and helpful, but once they were in her life they didn't want to leave her alone.

Quote:

Since your child is not being abused in any way then I don't see what you have to gain by being hard to contact and unhelpful. The quickest way to get them off your back is to show them that there is nothing wrong in your household or with your parenting.
I don't think anyone's recommending that the OP be "hard to contact and unhelpful." Just because she doesn't want them in her home, that doesn't mean she can't call them and politely suggest a neutral place for them to meet.

If they absolutely feel they can't investigate the allegations without entering the home -- then a warrant provides some protection for the OP as it will specify WHAT the caseworker can check, and other things will be off-limits.

I'm so glad I read the link provided earlier in this thread, because now I realize why it's better to wait for a warrant than to just let them in. If you let them in without a warrant, they have free range to everything.

As a homeschooling mom, in my state I don't have to present my records to anyone. And we have no educational neglect law here, so CPS can't conduct an investigation solely because someone thinks I'm not educating my kids properly. BUT, if they come to investigate a call for another reason, and I just let them in without a warrant, once they were in ANYTHING they wanted to check would be fair game.

As we're an unschooling family, this could mean that a caseworker who thought my kids weren't doing age-appropriate work, could figure out a way to build a case against me. After all, she'd have access to my WHOLE HOUSE, since there'd be no warrant to specify what she was looking for.

I think the posters who say, "Just let them in and make a cup of tea, you have nothing to hide," are a little naive about the mainstream view of many attachment parenting practices.

What if a 3 or 4yo comes up and asks to nurse?

What if the caseworker has "concerns" because the family has one room that's wall to wall mattresses where parents and children sleep together, and utilizes other bedrooms for play-space, office-space, or what have you?

I don't know if the OP's likely to have any of the above issues -- but I'm sharing these examples to point out that some families have absolutely nothing to hide in the sense of being evil or abusive -- and yet they're involved in practices that might be viewed as bizarre by a mainstream social worker.

AP aside, I live in a neighborhood of older homes, and I know many families who are continually combating problems with bugs and rodents. This has nothing to do with the kind of parenting their children are receiving -- and among the families I know who've had roach/mice problems, their children are healthy, and certainly don't seem to be suffering any ill effects from this.

So, I'm picturing a typical scenario where a neighbor is irritated with a particular family with 5 or 6 kids. This neighbor is retired, with lots of time on her hands to keep a perfect yard, and to inspect the goings-on in her community.

The large family next door doesn't have such a great-looking yard. They keep the trash cleaned up, but there tends to be a continual cluttering of toys, and the yard is mostly dirt interspersed with clumps of grass and weeds.

The 5 or 6 kids are homeschooled -- and actually unschooled -- something the lady next door is unfamiliar with. It looks to her like they spend an awful lot of time just playing in the yard. She initially calls CPS with her concerns about their education, or "the total lack thereof," and is informed that this is not reportable.

So this neighbor watches and waits. One day she hears her neighbor having an especially rough morning. This mom of 5 or 6 isn't feeling very well, but it's her "own fault," because she's "gone and got herself pregnant" -- "as if she doesn't already have enough children" (fumes the neighbor).

The concerned neighbor hears the mom screaming at the top of her lungs saying words that are mostly unintelligible to the neighbor -- but this concerned lady is able to pick out some cusswords, and thinks this could very likely be verbal abuse ("and you know where there's verbal abuse there's probably physical abuse!"). So she picks up her phone.

By the time the caseworker shows up two hours later, Mom has calmed down and her youngest children are napping. She decides to be friendly because, of course, she has nothing to hide -- so she invites the worker in for a cup of tea. She pours the tea and they sit chatting ... a moment later the worker picks up her cup to see a roach floating in it.

Mom says, "I'm so sorry -- we've just treated for roaches, but you know how hard it is to get completely rid of them ..." The worker doesn't understand, she's always lived in newer homes: from her perspective, a roach is a sign of a filthy house ...


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

This is an excellent hypothetical example.

When I allowed the case worker into my home, my home was clean and the children dressed. Yet, my youngest daughter was a special needs child that was 'broken' due to a near drowning accident. So therefore, because we had a 'history' of neglect charges (we HAD to be investigated with my daughter's accident because she was injured, although we were found to have not been negligent at all and it was ruled a total accident) we were automatically deemed 'repeat offenders'. I had no idea this was like that.

In addition, we do Unschool/Homeschool and when the case worker asked for my children's grade levels, I told her numbers that I thought were appropriate (since no grade levels would have been more suspicious), and her first response was "Oh, so your children are all behind in school." To which I explained that we don't really keep track of specific grades the way PS does.

Then she had ensure that each child had a separate bed (because that is their rule). Which it was a unusual occurrence, but we had JUST been given new mattresses and so we technically had a mattress for each child, however the boys always shared and so several days earlier we would have been two short.

As for them WANTING to close the cases. It is not what I have dealt with. With my most recent case, the worker that kept coming back again and again was a volunteer! He got no payment from them, but he would not leave us alone. He would not close our case.

I have found that with most of the workers I have dealt with they have been out to find something they could use against us. Of course, I do go against the mainstream, being a mother of many, home/unschooling, home birthing, AP, EBF, no-vaxing, and so on. So it quickly puts a red flag on my file. Even the doctors in our areas have been told to pay special attention to homeschoolers and notify for ANYTHING that is slightly out of the ordinary (this was actually in the news and passed through our Homeschool group from friendly physicians). So, I have little trust that my rights and my child's best interests are involved in any CPS investigations in which I am a part to.

Unfortunately, I have had to deal with them way too many times to be that naive ever again.


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## Aridel (Apr 25, 2004)

It's ridiculous to expect anyone to supervise a child 24 hours a day. What do they mean, make arrangements if sleep is needed??? It's not like most people can hire babysitters to stay up with their children every night.

Let us know how things go with the lawyer. Are you documenting everything that happens? It's very important to have a record.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
With my most recent case, the worker that kept coming back again and again was a volunteer!

Are you outside of the US?

I'm not aware of any US states that use volunteers for case work. Case workers needs to be certified in (I think) all 50 states, most require degrees. I would be very surprised to hear that a state agency with legal requirements and standards up the a** to comply with would allow a volunteer to be in charge of case disposition.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Nope, I am a resident of the good old USA. And I was as shocked as anyone to hear that we had a volunteer doing our case, but apparently in our area, that is standard operating procedure. Perhaps this person was supervised by someone else, but he always came alone to our home. (And he always parked on the next block over and walked to our house so we would not see him arrive.) Personally, he gave me the shivers, but he had the badge and another CW had communicated with us that he was following up. So he was legit.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

But there was no way I would ever let this man into my home with my children.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Kidzaplenty,







You're absolutely right that you fit most or all the criteria for the CPS "red flag." We fit many of these criteria as well -- except that, getting a rather late start, we only have two children.

Many of our friends with large families have found themselves subject to suspicion. It's sad that many in our culture seem quick to think badly of parents of many, as though a love for children were a sign of some underlying disease.

Also you make an excellent point about doctors being instructed to really watch homeschooling families, and to be quick to call them in for anything out of the ordinary.

Since the OP homeschools, this info. is relevant -- something she could keep in mind. In many states (such as mine), CPS can't specifically intervene for educational concerns -- but that doesn't mean they won't look for some kind of a foothold for getting involved in your child's education.

Toyarmy, please keep us posted!


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## lynnloves2 (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
Okay, I'm thinking how lucky your kids are! All the conservatives who say kids "deserve" a mother and a father should be thanking you for giving your kids a bonus parent. Clearly if two are better than one, three are better than two.

I need me a wife . . . .

Thank you, my kids feel pretty lucky as well! There is always at least one parent here for them!


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

I live in PA and in our county we use case volunteers as well, but ours are to help keep the kids in the home because our CPS will not take kids out of the home unless its a gross abuse (ie: sexual, physical/emotional)

So they use volunteer to help the families cope with what they need to get through, mentor them and help them. Now you do need to go through a certification class but there are no specified majors etc, that they will take. Also I believe that the case is still handled by a caseworker from CPS, the volunteer is there more to help the family with needs that the caseworker doesn't have time to deal with.


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