# Children, parents, restaurants, manners, etiquette...



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I'm sure you know where this is going. This has, I'm sure, been discussed before, but I can't find old threads (heck, I can't find anything here anymore!). I hope to keep this civil.

I'm wondering about dining out and what is expected, not just from the children, but the parents, as well, in different situations. I'm speaking specifically of different types of sit-down restaurants. From the one-step-up-from-fast-food places like Outback Steakhouse and Red Lobster to the fine dining restaurants that have a tasting menu and wine pairings that are $250/person. What should the expectation of manners from children of various ages be in these places? Beyond manners, I think that there is a set of dining etiquette rules that is necessary for these different situations and I wonder what kids are, in general, being taught these days. I'm also thinking of what parents are or are not doing in various situations where parenting *needs* to take place because of disruption.

Had an interesting experience last night and it got me thinking about this again.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I taught my dd to use her silverware and napkin, chew with her mouth closed, stay in our booth and not disturb other people around us, use manner words when talking to the waitress, and use an inside voice. These are the manners I expect no matter where we are at and I have expected them for years, though of course they weren't always 100% met when dd was younger because she was still learning.

We don't go to places that cost $250 a plate because we don't have any places like that around (and I can't imagine food being worth that much). The higher end restaurants in town aren't typically considered places to bring kids so just doing that would be a breach of the expected etiquette. If I did bring my dd to somewhere like that I would get a video about really fancy manners for her and we would practice together for a while before going so she isn't glared at too much.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

1. Stay at the table- don't run around the restaurant. Most definitely do not touch other people, their table, or their food.

2. Do not turn in your seat to observe other diners.

3. Inside voices - any child who is incontrollably hollering needs to be removed by their parents. Parents can take shifts standing outside while the other parent and kids eat, or they can pack up and leave their half-eaten meal. I don't care, so long as the source of the hollering is promptly removed.

... it looks so obvious when I type it out, and so minimal in terms of social expectations, and yet I run into people again and again who will not adhere to this baseline.


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## 20605 (Oct 11, 2004)

I think it depends on the place and the timing. We always took our daughter with us to restaurants. If she couldn't sit still or was crying (infant), one of us got the food packed up and paid, the other took said babe outside to go home. It is rude to let a child run around and bother other diners. Parents should be gracious to everyone, their kids, other diners, etc. Its also rude to expect a small child to sit still and like an adult in a fancy 100 dollar a plate restaurant. Older kids, sure..toddlers um no.

So to me its about expectations. If a small child is tired and cranky and just can't do it, don't yell at them, don't let them run crazy, just suck it up and be the adult and go. You can eat out another time. If an older child is being cranky, explain the expectations and follow through. Again, leave if needed.

just my two cents.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

We only eat at really casual places. I've never been to Red Lobster but that type of place would probably be as 'fancy' as it gets. I have never & will never pay $250 for a meal, so I can't say much about high-end dining!!

I don't really care what other people do, as long as their kids aren't actually climbing under my table or something. I don't mind if they're loud, as long as they are happy and not being obnoxious. (Loud laughing & telling jokes & playing wouldn't be annoying, but crying/screaming at someone/etc. would be to me. And I can't stand hearing parents scream at their kids.)

For my own DS (2.5yo), we expect him to sit calmly. That's about it. He can play with most items on the table (a straw, a sugar packet, but not the communal salt shaker 'cause he might lick it!) He can peek over the back of the booth once or twice but can't stare or anything and can't annoy anyone on the other side. He can't run around but if he's really restless we might take him to the lobby to walk around and look at the decor. I do expect him to be pretty quiet, and if he's crying or fussy, we take him for a walk. I've only actually left a restaurant once, and that was because he was throwing things, broke a plate, and was screaming. We were practically the only ones in the restaurant (off-hours), otherwise we would have left even sooner.

I don't care about table manners or anything. Even at home, it's just not a priority for us for multiple reasons. As long as it's not affecting anyone else (and if you're randomly staring at my table, that doesn't count as 'affecting' you!!) then I'm OK with most things.


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## MariesMama (Sep 26, 2008)

We do what one_girl and Smithie do. Inside voices, no laying down/turning around in the booth, you sit and eat and make polite conversation. DD is 3.5 now, but even at a very young age I did not tolerate screaming or running or pestering others. I DO bring an arsenal of crayons and games to keep her occupied. If we go to a fancy place with DD we try to go at an off-peak time. I was raised eating everywhere from Denny's to tea at the Plaza, so I think it is very important to have good etiquette. To me, there's no such thing as "too polite".

Right now we're working on "things that are not nice to talk about while we eat."


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> I taught my dd to use her silverware and napkin, chew with her mouth closed, stay in our booth and not disturb other people around us, use manner words when talking to the waitress, and use an inside voice. These are the manners I expect no matter where we are at and I have expected them for years, though of course they weren't always 100% met when dd was younger because she was still learning.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> 1. Stay at the table- don't run around the restaurant. Most definitely do not touch other people, their table, or their food.
> 
> ...


All of that. We don't have money for fine dining, so my kids have never been in a high-end restaurant like the OP described, but basic manners are necessary anywhere.

Also, on an aside....as someone who has worked in restaurants off and on for a decade, the "not running around" rule is as much for safety as it is for courtesy. I have personally witnessed a child splitting his forehead open when he ran into a very heavy stoneware plate that a waitress was carrying. Servers are transporting things that are hot, heavy, or sharp. I find it baffling when people allow their kids to play tag in the aisles, run back and forth to the bathrooms, or think that a crowded restaurant on a Saturday night is a great place to teach their toddler how to walk. If your kid runs under a server's feet and a pot of coffee gets spilled on the little darling, who is to blame?

Putting your baby carrier on the floor (with the baby in it) next to your table is dangerous, as well.


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## aparent (May 9, 2006)

Alice Walker is quoted as having said that, "The most

important question in the world is, "Why is the child crying?""

Perhaps that also applies in "Why is the child disruptive?"

When dining out children should be encouraged to understand

the general feeling of the social situation and meet it. The adults,

as the ones with more social intelligence, should model what is

best in that social context and respond constructively to any

children having difficulty. The meal is an event, the child is the

future.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

We have mostly the same rules as at home... sit properly and use your manners.

Our kids are 9 and 7, and still have a limit to how long they want to sit still in a noisy restaurant. If DH orders soup to start he asks that it comes to the table with our meal, otherwise they hold the meal for another 15 minutes and the kids get restless. We only rarely get dessert at a restaurant, because that draws things out, too. Sometimes I ask for the cheque halfway through eating, while the waitress is filling our drinks or something, so we won't have to wait for that! It important to me that the kids have fun when we go out. If we feel like chit-chatting more when the meal is over or want dessert, we can go through a Horton's drive through for donuts, and have a coffee and much more relaxing conversation in the park while the kids run around.

Someone told me once that when kids are being 'bad', to look at whether there's a behaviour problem, or an expectations problem. Quite often, I've found it's the latter.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't take my 2-year-old to fancy restaurants because they take longer than she can handle. She is really good for a quick meal, and she's an easy easy kid, but she can't handle sitting in one place as long as a really nice restaurant meal goes.

My expectation for the 9-year-old is that she be quiet and polite and all that. At 9, she has no trouble at all behaving in a restaurant. My expectation for the 2-year-old is that she stay seated, not make loud noises, and not be disruptive to others in any other way. If it gets to be a problem, either dh or I take her outside and the other packs up and pays. I will take her to Outback or whatever, but she isn't up for a really nice place yet. It's just too quiet, and toddlers seem to like to fill up silence with noise, and it takes longer htan she can handle. I don't consider her to be poorly behaved, just not old enough to handle that kind of restaurant.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Mine are 4 and 6, and I expect that they can sit at the table and wait for their food, not run around, not shout. If they raise their voices I tell them to be more quiet.

As far as waiting time, I think that is cultural. I just went out to dinner tonight with friends, and it was over 4 hours. This is normal. If I go out with kids, we might choose something quicker, but "quicker" is still likely to be 2 hours. When we were in the states and went out to eat everything came so quick, it seemed almost instantaneous. It was a piece of cake for my kids. Also, since we don't eat out much, it is an experience for them, which is somewhat entertaining in itself, which I think makes it easier. If it is going to be a really long wait, I will often break it up myself, but asking the kids if they want to take a short walk outside and look in some shop windows or whatever, while we wait for the appetizer. Then they burn off a little fuel but I stay close by and we go back in as soon as the appetizer comes out. I will also bring a little scrap paper, or a book, so they can draw or look at pictures, while we are waiting. But mostly we talk. Really expensive meals we don't do with the kids, because in that case I want to really enjoy the food and wine, and some good talk, which my kids will not appreciate or be interested in. When they are older, sure, but it will be a few years.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

velochic i am curious what ages you are talking about.

it so varies with age group as you are aware.

dd is a whole different story now at almost 9.

also we really have fancy manners for fancy restaurants and looser manners for family style places. so at family places she doesnt try to use the right fork or have to figure out what the water glass is.

dd gets it now. also she knows and is expected to know not to interrupt adult's conversation with her two bits. when she is included in the conversation she can have her say..

interestingly she has picked up more about manners from watching period pieces than actually me teaching her.

of course dd is not allowed to run around, but at 2 and 3 i could never have that expectation from her. which is why i chose where i went to eat and what time we went.

it is interesting others expectations of dd. now that she is older i notice they include her in many of the conversations which she really enjoys. so when she is ignored she is ok and finds ways to entertain herself.

i will say being a mother i enjoy other children at the restaurants, esp. the smiling giggling running toddlers. they always make me smile.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> velochic i am curious what ages you are talking about.


As I said in the OP, really I'm asking about all ages.

When you talk of "fancy manners" and "loose manners", what does that mean? Manners are manners. You should use them anywhere, IMO. However, different dining environments, I think, require different dining ETIQUETTE and that was kind of what I was thinking about.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

The manners listed are basic expectations of adults and children alike in public places, and restaurants especially. No disagreement there. Who would argue with this? Noone believes a person should run around, use loud obnoxious voices etc etc.

The question is-getting your children to adhere to these guidelines. My children for eg, behave very well at the table at home. But in a restaurant, there are no guarantees. I contend this is less an issue of discipline, or lack of consideration for others on the part of the parent, than differences in temperment on the part of the child. Good for you (and lucky for you) that you have children who readily behave well in a restaurant. if you have more than one child, who together with their sibling/s, behaves well in a restaurant, then a gold star is what you deserve. My kids are not especially interested in crayons. But if the food is served quickly, they behave very well whilst eating.

My childrens behavior (they behave well on their own but not always when they are together) is not something i can predict, despite the guidelines i lay down for them. For this reason, we are less likely to dine in restaurants, and as a consequence, they get less experience.

However, i am sure that with a bit of maturity, things will improve.

I suppose we all just need to be considerate of each other, and tolerant when things arent perfect. That goes for other customers in the restaurant when it comes to a crying child (or whatever the situation may be-if my child cries, i take him out, but they still hear it), as well as parents with children. A bit of give and take i say.

When it comes to extremely expensive restaurants...a person who can afford that, can either afford a babysitter, or someone to come along who can effectively keep children entertained to ensure they are quiet and seated. One reason i go to a restaurant is so i can relax. getting anxious because of my childs behavior is not relaxing. Sometimes though, it might be to hot or too cold outside to take out, so we are forced to stay in or starve (depends on the situation)

I wouldnt spend 250 bux on a meal even if i could afford it, although i have been invited many a time to these types of establishments before i had children.


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## Buzzer Beater (Mar 5, 2009)

I'd have to agree with most of what the posters before have to say. We don't take our kids anywhere they have proven to be disruptive unless one of us is willing to go out or home with the child. That said, there are a number of places I would never take a babe or small child even if it could be counted on to "behave" in that situation. A really really fancy restaurant would be one of them- hell I won't even take my 20 year old to expensive dinners, let alone the babe.

I have to admit I am bothered by other people's children when they are disrupting me almost anywhere- movie, out to dinner, bookstore, library etc- that has an expectation for being calm or at least quiet.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I'm sure you know where this is going. This has, I'm sure, been discussed before, but I can't find old threads (heck, I can't find anything here anymore!). I hope to keep this civil.
> 
> ...


Time to tell, what was your experience and your reaction?


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

On the ages question, again, i think temperament and other factors is also an issue. For eg, i could take my now 6yo into a restaurant when his brother was a baby, and he was 2-3. At the time, he was often content to play with cars. Now at 6, if alone, he can be very well behaved, but not always when his brother is with him. Cars definitely wont keep him entertained though. His 3yo brother, is less well behaved, but again, when alone, can be more mature. I think by the age of 5 or 6, all things being equal, a child is capable of good behavior in a restaurant. i dont know, i just get a headache thinking about it, because it usually is a headache when i take them 

Oh, and having a partner, or other adults with you is obviously a huge help, since one of them can take out 'offending' child, or keep them otherwise entertained, while other adults get food eaten. Such a tool is usually not in my arsenal as a single mother.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> As I said in the OP, really I'm asking about all ages.
> 
> When you talk of "fancy manners" and "loose manners", what does that mean? Manners are manners. You should use them anywhere, IMO. However, different dining environments, I think, require different dining ETIQUETTE and that was kind of what I was thinking about.


I think of fancy as taking extra care to always sit up, using the napkin a little more frequently, using the right silverware for the right job, and just being on your best behavior in general. Loose manners are still manners but they aren't as vigilantly and absolutely enforced. It is probably more accurate to say that manners are more loosely enforced at some times than other times because some dining situations are more casual than others.

As far as just etiquette I think not disturbing your fellow diners, keeping your noise and behavior geared to the level of where you are eating, and not having an odor that can be smelled by others is a basic guideline that applies to anywhere you eat. Parents should be expected to help their kids live up to that expectation by redirecting, distraction, and picking appropriate dining places for their children's abilities, no matter what their age, until they master doing these things on their own. As I mentioned previously, there are also some dining situations in which bringing a child is going against the dining etiquette for the restaurant and in those situations I think it is unfair to parents and other diners for a person to go against that.

I think it would be easier to gauge the response (and it would satisfy a lot of curious people) if we knew what actually happened to make you wonder about this.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzer Beater*
> 
> Time to tell, what was your experience and your reaction?


It was a loud chain restaurant.

So what happened, didn't actually happen to us, it was something I observed across the aisle. There was a boy, close to my dd's age...more than 7, no older than 9 and he was turning around trying to talk to the people in the next booth... except he had a BBQ rib in his hand every time and was smearing BBQ sauce all over the back of the booth. The gentleman was trying to gently get the kid to turn back around, but the parents were so busy texting (they weren't even talking to each other!!!) that they didn't even bother to talk to the child. I think the people ended up just leaving before their meal was finished.

We don't go to these loud chains usually, and never really have (it happened to be equidistant for meeting in this particular case, which is why we ended up there). When dd was a toddler, we lived in Germany. We ate out mostly at our local biergarten if we wanted to spend a good amount of time dining out. These had good, fresh food, but also play equipment for kids. Very informal. However, buy age 3 or 4, we were serious about teaching manners, even fine dining etiquette at home and it translated to restaurants. It took years of talking and teaching and *always* we taught that the other diners were to be respected in all situations. I am simply tired of parents either ignoring the situation or thinking that their little angels have a right to disturb everyone else. NO, they don't!! Etiquette is one thing, but manners is just basic. And overall, the manners don't change. You just respect the other diners. For some people, eating out may be the highlight of their month or year and having a loud kid (or loud drunk adult or loud adult on the cellphone) can ruin what is a special occasion for them. It seemed like this was a first date or important date and these people were trying to talk... but the parents were OBLIVIOUS and this kid RUINED their meal. I felt so sorry for them.

ETA: My reaction??? This thread.


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## Buzzer Beater (Mar 5, 2009)

I think there are a lot of parents out there who cannot/will not control their children... that's too bad. If that happened to me I would ask the waitress to intervene. I wouldn't let someone else's child ruin my night. No wonder restaurants and airlines are making child free zones. I don't blame them!


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

In cheaper, run of the mill places it bothers me but not overally if children are disruptive, poorly behaved. At a nice place, quite frankly it makes my blood boil. We teach & mentor good table manners at home & while out 'cause I do think it is important & I've seen people as teenagers/young adults end up really embarrassed the first time they end up at a "fancy" event with no idea how to conduct themselves.

I do think at all restaurants children & adults should be keeping their voices low enough that they are not bothering other diners, shouldn't be running around the restaurant, staring, throwing things, etc. I totally get that it's a learning process for young children & as long as it seems the parents are trying to teach the skills/manners than it's all fine imo at family/busy places. But when I see a child running amok & the parents are just ignoring it I think that is totally inappropriate. Children obviously cannot behave perfectly at all times & need chances to practice.

As for higher end places I think the difficulty lies in a couple different areas. There are times that children will be at these places & I'm not for not allowing them but I think the parents do need to make a MUCH higher effort to not disturb others. But I also think that the restaurants themselves sometimes need to be more mindful of how they are seating patrons in relation to each other. When dh & I were on our honeymoon we went out for a very fancy dinner one night. We were seated immediately beside a family with a 2 year old who spent the entire meal crawling under the tables, running around, screaming, etc. The restaurant wasn't busy & the parents & the staff did nothing. It was a pretty big splurge for us to go to this place & it really did ruin our romantic dinner.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rani*
> 
> I think it depends on the place and the timing. We always took our daughter with us to restaurants. If she couldn't sit still or was crying (infant), one of us got the food packed up and paid, the other took said babe outside to go home. It is rude to let a child run around and bother other diners. Parents should be gracious to everyone, their kids, other diners, etc. Its also rude to expect a small child to sit still and like an adult in a fancy 100 dollar a plate restaurant. Older kids, sure..toddlers um no.
> 
> ...


Exactly. If one of mine wasn't up to behaving in public that night .. we'd go. One of us would wait outside with child.. the other would get the food in to go boxes and pay.

At 45, I'm on the other end of the spectrum with this... I often go on a date night with hubby only to have some kid standing in the booth behind me trying to talk/yell or get mashed potatoes in my ear. And it really sucks.. if your kid misbehaves... why do you get to ruin my hard earned night off?


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

We love going out to eat, have always brought our kids

I expect DD to sit and chat with us, try new foods, and not completely freak out. DS is now at the age we do NOT go to fancy places because it would just be hellish -- he's 13 months and has a low tolerance for sitting still for more than 20-30 minutes (and that's with distractions..)

We do go to the diner and things like that..if we want to go to eat we go at 4:30 when places are virtually empty and we can be a little louder. I've had some experiences where my kids were just overtired and cranky, and we left..but I've had experiences where we've went to smaller intimate places and DS has cried and EVERYONE in the place makes faces/holds him and just HELPS US get through dinner. I love that sense of community that sometimes pops up in the stangest places.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"No wonder restaurants and airlines are making child free zones."

I LOVE child free zones. I'd much rather eat (or wait) with a group of other parents. It's much less stressful for me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The kids have to be quiet ("inside voices" only), and not climb around/under the tables. (I actually don't care whatsoever if kids crawl under tables, as long as they stay at their own, but it usually drives dh crazy, and it sometimes bothers the servers staff, so we don't allow it.) They have to stay in their seat, unless they need the restroom, in which case they can walk, not run. (DD1 is now comfortable going to the restroom alone, if she's familiar with the restaurant - ds2 is accopmanied by a parent.) I doesn't bother me at all if kids turn around and talk to me while I'm eating at a restaurant, but I know it bothers some people. If my kids do it, I tell them to stop, but if the other party says, "oh, I don't mind at all - he's cute/she's funny/he's so sweet", then I usually let it go. The kids need to learn manners, but I'm not big on blind rules about that kind of thing, and I see no reason to stop them from behaving in a certain way, if it isn't bothering anyone.

High end restaurants are out of our budget. For the most part, I don't really like them, anyway. So, my kids aren't getting lessons on using the right silverware, etc., because that kind of thing makes for an unenjoyable meal for me, and spending money I don't have, in order to not have a good time, makes no sense to me. They'll pick it up at some point, I'd guess. I did. (I mean, I can use the right silverware, etc. on the very rare occasions when I can't reasonably avoid that kind of situation - the last one was ds1's grad banquet, and I hope the next one will be dd1's...in 10 years.)


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I think spending more than a minute or two on a phone call or texting while at a restaurant is poor manners. If the parents hadn't been absorbed in their phone-worlds, they might have noticed what their kid was doing & redirected him... that's too bad.

I'm not a fan of child-free zones and would not be likely to patronize such a place. But I would love phone-free zones!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

velochic One_Girl answered the question for me.

yes i have expectations but you dont expect a 2 or 3 year old to be able to behave themselves.... esp. if the adults are taking their own sweet time.

during that time it was easier to go to cafes and family places where dd could be 'free'. i could not expect dd to live up to my expecctations.

dont we already have kid free restaurants? they are the non family restaurants aren't they?

i'd expect a family style restaurant to be noisy and distracting.

it was hard for dd to get peoples private space, esp when they turned around and said it was ok and that they enjoyed talking to her.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I expect my 5 yo to sit properly in her chair/booth (no lying down, no climbing, etc.), to talk in an indoor voice, and not to play with any of the silverware, etc. at the table. Basically, I expect her not to 1) disturb the other diners or 2) make a lot of extra work for the waitstaff (making messes, etc.).

Because she has significant food allergies, we bring her own meal wherever we go, whether it's a diner or an upscale restaurant. She can eat whenever she wants--she doesn't have to wait for our food--but she knows she needs to sit still while the rest of us are eating. Like a PP, we do bring a number of small toys and books to the restaurant, so that she has some things with which to entertain herself--because she can't eat the restaurant food, the meal itself is much less "entertaining" than it would be for other kids.

We went out to a Chinese restaurant with some friends and they let their boys scream at the top of their lungs, run around, play wildly with the chopsticks, etc. I have to say, I was pretty mortified.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I have one rule and one rule only, respect the other diners. They are here to enjoy their meal and conversation just as we are. We have left many times when it was obvious it wasn't going to be a pleasant experience for anybody. However at 8 and 6 things have gotten pretty nice. The thing that has helped the most is not excluding them from conversation. We all talk about the subjects at hand and that keeps their attention at our table rather than everywhere else.


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## coldandsleepy (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> 1. Stay at the table- don't run around the restaurant. Most definitely do not touch other people, their table, or their food.
> 
> ...


These are more or less my rules. And I think these needs to apply to kids from more or less day one... no excuses for 2 year olds, etc. I've been taking my son out to eat since he was a couple of weeks old and these are what we stick by. I have had to take him outside on occasion, especially in the period before food arrives. (Sometimes I take him outside preemptively in this period if we're somewhere where I know there might be a wait.) Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's frustrating, but it's what I'd want other parents to do if it was their kid.

I don't care about turning in your seat to observe other diners though I do discourage this when we're, say, sitting in a booth because I don't want him to turn around and grab the person behind us or try to climb over, which are both things he would like to do. I would be pretty horrified if he interrupted the conversation of other diners once, let alone kept doing it...

People who play with their cell phones at restaurants when dining with others kinda drive me crazy whether they have kids with them or not. It seems rude to me, equivalent to whipping out a book or a homework assignment while your companion sits there.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I think spending more than a minute or two on a phone call or texting while at a restaurant is poor manners. If the parents hadn't been absorbed in their phone-worlds, they might have noticed what their kid was doing & redirected him... that's too bad.
> 
> I'm not a fan of child-free zones and would not be likely to patronize such a place. But I would love phone-free zones!


But couldn't the man who was being bothered have said something to the parents? If a kid was dripping BBQ sauce on me and didn't stop after me asking him to twice, I think I would have pointed it out to the parents. Yes, they should have noticed but they didn't.

We don't take our kids to nice restaurants because it is too expensive! We were out once and this guy there was saying how they always took their kids everywhere with them, sort of with the implication that we should have brought ours instead of excluding them. It probably would have cost at least $60 to bring all 3 kids along. That doesn't seem worth it to me when I could hire a babysitter for $20.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzer Beater*
> 
> I think there are a lot of parents out there who cannot/will not control their children... that's too bad. If that happened to me I would ask the waitress to intervene. I wouldn't let someone else's child ruin my night. No wonder restaurants and airlines are making child free zones. I don't blame them!


I've worked at several restaurants over the years. Nothing too fancy, and no diners, but I've done upscale-casual and chain places, both independently owned and corporate run. Very few of them would have addressed the issue on any real level...especially the waitress. Waitstaff are some of the most-abused people in the restaurant world. They're either being yelled at by the chef or yelled at by the customers. If a customer complained to me about a neighboring table, I would bring it to management and let them handle it (or not).

In that situation, there was an unhappy party. Their dining experience was already shot. Confronting the offensive people would only ensure that there would be TWO unhappy parties. There's no money to be made in that. In the world of chain restaurants, classless, mannerless people are the first to call corporate to complain. Then corporate sends them freebies and punishes whatever restaurant generated the complaint, right or wrong. The "punishment" frequently involves reducing bonuses given to the higher managers annually. Then the jerks who complained receive gift cards and they're back the following week.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lindberg99*
> 
> But couldn't the man who was being bothered have said something to the parents? If a kid was dripping BBQ sauce on me and didn't stop after me asking him to twice, I think I would have pointed it out to the parents. Yes, they should have noticed but they didn't.


This. People do need to stand up for themselves every so often. The waitstaff aren't babysitters.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Well, I can't imagine that the guy didn't say something. I'm sure he did. I just wasn't so intent on their situation that I know exactly what happened. I do know that he did get the waiter (or busser) to clean off the back of the booth at one point and the parents were aware of what was going on. Remember, this kid was probably 7 or 8 (or perhaps 9), so we're not talking a toddler here. That was what really blew me away. It also made me think more about WHAT is being taught these days.

I realize that we are probably more strict with manners. Although at home we may be more relaxed, manners are never forgotten. Those don't waver. In restaurants, though, another set of rules apply because you are in a social situation and the other diners need to be respected...dining etiquette. We actually have very few things we do as a family for entertainment... dining out is one of them. We (including dd, 9yo) have enjoyed, as a family, what I would call "nice" dining since dd was about 5yo, and we eat out about once a week. This may or may not involve white tablecloth, but isn't what I'd call "fine" dining (the bill may be $100 - $150, but rarely more). We really don't have fine dining of the caliber of The French Laundry or Gramercy Tavern where we live, so any more would be rare. Still, it's occasionally upscale enough that dd needs to use nuances like properly eating bread, using her utensils continental style (less clanging), placing them properly on the plate, not leaning fork and knife on table, spooning her soup away from her, placing her napkin on the seat when excused from the table, etc. The esoteric points, I suppose. I don't expect her to follow those etiquette rules at Outback Steakhouse, but I feel that knowing them has helped her to be more aware at the table, and it has reflected that even in casual places, she is respectful of other diners. And interestingly enough, we do dine in places where she may be the only child, and has done so for a while now. Earlier this summer, we were at an upscale French restaurant, and she was the only child. She had the mussels, and the elderly gentleman at the next table said to her, with a thick accent, "Young lady, it is nice to see a youngster who not only knows HOW to eat mussels, but also so obviously enjoy them." The whole 3 hour meal was thoroughly enjoyable for all of us and I'm grateful that we've spent so much time teaching dd the finer points that allow us to dine in these places. She did enjoy it, and it blanket policies of "no kids" is ridiculous. But... what is a restaurant owner to do? I guess the few ruin it for the masses of kids who are able to conduct themselves properly.

Like, I said, I know we're stricter, but I all too often see, in even family dining places, kids who are disrespectful of other diners. I'm not expecting them to keep their napkins in their lap or use the right utensil... but I expect them to not throw the napkin at me and to not clang the utensil against dad's beer mug... or hang over the back of the booth dripping sauce. At *any* age, I would hope that parents are aware enough to... EVEN IN FAMILY DINING... allow others to have a peaceful meal. Ambient noise is one thing... having a kid hanging over you saying, "Hey, mister, hey mister, hey, mister, hey... oops!!" is another thing altogether. Don't get me wrong, when dd was a toddler, we lived in Germany and ate at the biergarten where she could play on the equipment while snatching bites. But we knew she wasn't ready for a nice restaurant or even a casual family restaurant. We waited until she was ready.... out of respect of others. Why can't this be reciprocated? And how can this be ignored until a kid is 7 or 8 years old?

(Sorry for the rant... trying to kind of sum up my thoughts replying to several posts.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> we knew she wasn't ready for a nice restaurant or even a casual family restaurant. We waited until she was ready.... out of respect of others. Why can't this be reciprocated? And how can this be ignored until a kid is 7 or 8 years old?


One possibility that comes to mind is that they haven't done what you did. It sounds as though your dd has been gradually moved up, from the very casual biergarten, through family restaurants, less family oriented ones, and then to more fine dining type places. We've done something similar (although fine dining is not pleasant for me, so we haven't done that).

There are a few kids I know who would possibly behave the way you describe in a restaurant. They're "too old" to behave that way. But, they've also never been in a restaurant. In one case, the mom doesn't even take them inside fast food places - she only does drive-thru. These kids have very, very loose manners at home (far more so than I do, and I'm pretty loose!), and have literally never been inside a restaurant. Should they find themselves in one, I don't think they'd have a clue how to behave. The youngest are about the age you're talking about.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that experience sounds like it was outside of the normal boundaries of socially acceptable parenting for any restaurant. There are some parents that are just self-centered enough not to care though. It does sound like you have much higher expectations for your child and a very different view of what casual dining is than the people in my social circle, but napkin throwing, smearing food on the seat of the person behind you, and making obnoxious noises are really not acceptable things to do anywhere. I have never experienced a child doing any of these things at a restaurant, beyond small child tantrums that are quickly redirected, and I wonder if it has something to do with how the families who dine at the restaurants we go to view eating out versus how a family with a lot of money to spend on just one meal views the experience.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

u know velochic to each his own. i feel as parents we know our children best and do what works for our family. it doesnt matter if you are strict or not as it differs from family to family.

i am the complete opposite of you. dd and i have been going to restaurants since she was a baby. being a poor single mama who could afford a meal out sometimes and tips with nothing left over for a babysitter i would go stark raving crazy if we didnt go out.

i was that parent that brought a large garbage bag to spread under dd's high chair so clean up wasnt so tough (and i didnt most of it - made me feel better). if by any chance i forgot i made sure i left a large tip sometimes 50% of the meal (which for one person wasnt too much).

when dd started running around we went to a different place during non peak hours so she wouldnt really disturb anyone and the waitresses would hang out at our table to 'talk' to dd.

i do not insist on manners at home. esp. i absolutely do not insist on manners with me (i forget the difference between manners and etiquette). dd does not have to say TY or apologize or anything. i am her mother. i know she feels grateful. i know she is mortified to discover she hurt me or was mean to me. as she grew older she did later apologize.

the thing is dd is impeccably polite. not just thru her surroundings but also through movies (some of them are so old fashioned that its made other diners lol - yeah her passion for period pieces come thru). for her 2nd, 3rd and 4th bday her fav. sushi restaurant invited us to dd's fav meal and mochi on a plate with decorations and happy bday written in chocolate.

i think being sensitive herself and aware of others really help her with her manners - to not disturb others.

and i agree with pp. i have never really seen such extreme behaviour myself. that is sheer carelessness.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Still, it's occasionally upscale enough that dd needs to use nuances like properly eating bread, using her utensils continental style (less clanging), placing them properly on the plate, not leaning fork and knife on table, spooning her soup away from her, placing her napkin on the seat when excused from the table, etc.


I have no clue what you are talking about with any of this here LOL!! I had no idea there was a 'right' way to eat bread or that it was possible to spoon soup away from you etc. I wonder how many people I have offended.









I think your experience with the BBQ sauce boy is a bit outside the realm of normal & acceptable. I can't say I've ever seen a kid that age act like that (and get away with it), though we don't eat out much and I tend not to pay much attention to those around me (I don't deal with crowds well!) so maybe I've missed it. I think even parents who are very lax with manners -- like myself -- would find that child's behavior inappropriate. I do not, however, think anyone needs to wait until their kid is 10 and perfectly behaved before going to a casual restaurant.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Well, meemee, it doesn't really matter how you go about it, as long as when people are gathered together in a social situation, that children, as well as adults, are respectful of those around them. And, as a former server in my younger years, you'd be surprised if you knew how often those servers are really wishing you'd just leave and are only being friendly and tolerant and chatty because they haven't gotten their tip yet. I totally would have seemed like I was absolutely *fascinated* with a someone's child, when in reality, they grated on my nerves like a chalkboard because I had back-of-house duties, too, and I was just out there to make to make sure the little terror wasn't tearing everything up and to secure a good tip.

And honestly, if I were at a restaurant and someone pulled out a garbage bag to deal with the mess their child was about to make, I'd be mortified for them (and at our typical haunts, the management would probably throw them out). Sorry, but not only is that crass (to not put too fine a point on it), it also says, "my kid can make the biggest damn mess they want and I'm not going to teach them how to behave in a restaurant, I'm going to just try to control the damage." The fact that it's needed means they're not ready for restaurants and parents need to get a clue. Teach a child manners, and tip well. Heck, even at places like Denny's (if we ate there), I wouldn't do something like that.

When you say "the thing is dd is impeccably polite. not just thru her surroundings but also through *movies*" means, I can only assume that you're letting TV teach your child how to behave in public? You're right... we are completely opposite. My dd doesn't get her cues from TV, she gets them from us. As uptight and strict as we may seem, she *is* in social situations where the minutia matter. This isn't the lifestyle everyone chooses for their child, but I would hope that by 7 or 8 years old, no matter how it's accomplished, children have learned respect and how to live among the masses.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I still think whether high end or low end restaurants, the basic premise is the same-consideration for others. Im similar to meemee, single mother, who at times goes to restaurants, because thats the only place we can eat at the time. I avoid the busy times, and busy places. I dont put a plastic bag under the chair, but i make sure to clean up a little if there is more than the usual mess left at a table. I have waitressed a fair bit myself and in different countries, and i have a good i idea of what servers go through and am considerate to them. I do my best to ensure my children behave well.

On the other hand, i also think our culture is a very child unfriendly place. I like the idea of the Biergarten with toys in the corner for kids. Why cant we have more of that the in the US?

As far as the example given, those parents had bad manners on many levels. They were ignoring each other and ignoring their son. They failed to notice that he was disturbing other customers because they were so inconsiderate. I dont think this is the typical challenge of a parent at all. Maybe there are some bad mannered inconsiderate parents out there, but not all normally behaved children in unchildfriendly contexts are the result of parents like this. I would say they are the exception rather than the rule.

If i had been the customer being disturbed in this situation, i would have first asked the child to stop, then asked the parents, then finally asked the server to move us to a different table.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

When we go out to eat, my boys (8 and 5) are expected to stay seated, keep their napkins in their laps (and use them), use silverware, chew with their mouths closed, and speak politely to the waitstaff. They are not to blow bubbles in their water or fish ice out of their glass. Eating out is a treat for all of us and they behave appropriately. We actually have a harder time with really casual places like Qdoba where the behavior expectations are less clear than nicer restaurants.

My 1 year old is more of a management problem. We keep her happy or take her outside. If she has food, she will generally be quiet and neat. She has a hard time with waiting a long time in her chair, and if she is tired (because we're out too late) she will rub her eyes and whine a lot. I nurse her if I have to but prefer not to in restaurants.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Well, meemee, it doesn't really matter how you go about it, as long as when people are gathered together in a social situation, that children, as well as adults, are respectful of those around them.
> 
> ...


i forget how old your dd is - but you betcha dd learns things from her surroundings including tv and movies. i have no idea how you avoid that. gosh it was period pieces that taught her how to hold a teacup, how to daintily wipe her mouth with a napkin. she is a thinker so she notices stuff from her surroundings ALL the time - tv, movies, books, people, the radio... at 4 1/2 she questioned the hero from watching ninja turtles. well if the hero kills the bad guys then how is he different from the bad guy. why do we celebrate the hero then? when she couldnt undertand why daddys and mommys dont live together at 2 1/2 and was crying yeah barney taught her it was ok coz she would not take it from me. i could go on and on about outside influences. she found her own peace about bullies from the book - bridge to terabithia - inspite of her school giving them clues how to deal with bullies. she did not like their tactics because they ignored the bullies and dd didnt want to do that. she wanted to understand them. i dont know how to stop that.

i am the kind of person who doesnt believe in 'teaching'. i have never 'taught' dd a lot of things because i think modeling is far more important. partly coz she picks it up by herself. if she didnt i'd have to guide her which i've had to do sometimes. its just my thing. my philosophy. i dont teach 'integrity', i dont teach manners. i dont teach a lot of things.

but yeah you are absolutely right - it doesnt matter how we do it as long as our children learn to respect and live not just amongst the masses but also the earth and the life around us.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I agree contactmaya. I think this was an egregious example in what ignoring manners (and kids) result. I *don't* think this is the norm... it was just an incident that got me thinking.

And meemee... surroundings, yes, TV, no. It's not like dh and I act like animals when at the table while simultaneously telling dd to daintily dab the corners of her mouth. Media... she's just not exposed to it like other kids her age. Personal choice, works for our family. You say you don't believe in teaching, but you seem O.K. with TV teaching your child things. There seems to be a contradiction. It sounds like your dd is just able to figure out how to navigate life without you to teach her, and you are lucky to have a child like that. Most parents believe that teaching, i.e. discipline (gentle, hopefully) is helpful for children to learn the easy way, rather than the hard way.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> It's not like dh and I act like animals when at the table while simultaneously telling dd to daintily dab the corners of her mouth.


velochic just to clarify i know you and ur dh dont act like animals. and i hope i never implied that.

and talking about napkins i cant daintily dab the corners of my mouth - unless i am wearing lipstick (which i rarely do) or eating toast. i enjoy a nice strong wipe. which is why it was funny watching dd do it.

from your other posts i know you do things differently than me - but at the base level i think we have the same philosophy. i have really appreciated some of your posts opinions even on threads not related to me. i want u to know i respect you as a parent.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

And I, you, meemee. We don't have to do things the same way to achieve similar results. That's the cool thing about AP - a parent can get good results doing things different ways because they are in-touch enough to follow their children's lead, be aware of their environment, and use information to their advantage. On THAT, I think we can both agree!


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I expect them not to disrupt others experience. That is the bottom line.

I expect them to treat other diners, staff and premises respectfully.

I have not found kids to be the most annoying in restaurants - it is almost always the loud groups (with kids or not) who seem to generate the most noise and disruption.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I expect them not to disrupt others experience. That is the bottom line.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. I've come across a few very disruptive kids, but far more disruptive adults. There are a lot of people who take "I'm paying for this meal, and I should be able to enjoy it" to an extreme that ignores the fact that other patrons are also paying for their meal, and also want to enjoy it. There are the ones who monopolize serving staff, even when the restaurant is crowded...the ones who talk loudly on cellphones, or (in smaller places) shove their chairs back so the person behind them is almost on their own table...the ones who have very loud conversations, sometimes including swearing and/or sexual comments, etc. They're the ones I dread sharing restaurant space with.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


> Don't get me wrong, when dd was a toddler, we lived in Germany and ate at the biergarten where she could play on the equipment while snatching bites. But we knew she wasn't ready for a nice restaurant or even a casual family restaurant. We waited until she was ready.... out of respect of others. Why can't this be reciprocated? And how can this be ignored until a kid is 7 or 8 years old?


When my kids were little we didn't go to restaurants much, partly due to the cost of 5 people. The bigger reason though is it's easy to make sure 1 kid is behaving exactly as we want them to. It's much harder when you have 3, especially if they're close in age. When we only had our oldest we went out more often, there were 2 of us to pay attention to what she needed. When we had 3 we didn't start going out with them to restaurants until they were 5, 6 & 9. We had 1 really bad experience when they were younger than that, not their behaviour just stuff being spilled & dumped on food.

We've never had customers ruin our meals for us, whether we've gone out as a family or alone. We've had staff ruin meals.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Disclaimer: I am looking at this through the eyes of a parent with sensory processing disorder/ASD.

Considering the age of the boy, I wonder if he had some special needs. Maybe he did and the parents are just so worn out from dealing with it day in and day out that they escaped by texting and otherwise ignoring his behavior. I am not saying this to excuse the parents because they should have intervened, no doubt about it.

My ds is often seen as having poor table manners because he takes an ipod or Nintendo ds with earphones with him when we eat out. He does this because the experience is pure torture for him unless he has help blocking it out. We are often looked at crossly for allowing him to do this, not that we care.

I know my example is nowhere near as extreme as your experience, however, I just wanted to throw a thought out there. Maybe things aren't exactly as they seemed.

Regardless of the circumstances, the parents were rude. They were rude to their child by ignoring him and rude to others by ignoring his behavior.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I expect them not to disrupt others experience. That is the bottom line.
> 
> ...


I agree. As I said, in casual places, there are just as many adult cell phone users and loud talkers that disrupt. These people, though, are often raising kids, so what example are they giving?


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I have to agree. I've come across a few very disruptive kids, but far more disruptive adults. There are a lot of people who take "I'm paying for this meal, and I should be able to enjoy it" to an extreme that ignores the fact that other patrons are also paying for their meal, and also want to enjoy it. There are the ones who monopolize serving staff, even when the restaurant is crowded...the ones who talk loudly on cellphones, or (in smaller places) shove their chairs back so the person behind them is almost on their own table...the ones who have very loud conversations, sometimes including swearing and/or sexual comments, etc. They're the ones I dread sharing restaurant space with.


Oh, that is true! Now I'm not saying that I hate it when you go out and are near a group that is just sitting there drinking and swearing! That just happened to us last weekend.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

about waiting tables: i too have done my time in the food service industry. i wasn't falsely nice to people, but i can tell you the cardinal sin of restaurant going is not a screaming child-- it is a parent who does not clean up in the least after a cracker throwing fest. i have a messy child myself, but i ALWAYS clean up, i wipe the floor with a damp napkin and neatly pile the trillion (paper - we don't go to the restaurants with the other kind  ) napkins on the table. not to derail, but it is ridiculous to expect someone whose job it is to bring you quickly and correctly the food you ordered to sweep up and clean food out of cracks because you are too much of a slacker to clean up after your own kid. frequently, too, it is not the bussing staff that does this-- they're too busy and loaded down. or, ok, if your kid makes a humongous mess, then tip big. tip that person who is cleaning up after you. if not, THAT is a crappy restaurant going parent.

us: we don't tend to go to fancy restaurants. our favorites are not upscale places, we cannot afford it, nor do we enjoy stuffy (read: child-unfriendly) atmospheres. we don't let our kid(s) run around, that is not safe for anyone. at this point, dd eats like a toddler (see above). manners aren't really important to us overall, though i personally was raised to know which fork to use and even how to eat at a place where they push in your chair and swap out your silverware. that's just a social nicety for the upper class, about which i couldn't care less at this point. but, you know, if that's your thing, those environments are either most likely anti-child or accepting of the older child who sits quietly with napkins and went to etiquette class. i wouldn't think it would be acceptable to roll in with your shrieking, food-smearing toddler.

expectations change with age. i don't have many with dd under two, but as an older kid, i would expect the same as for suppers at home, quiet conversation without food in the mouth speaking, just calm in general (which is the opposite of toddler life atm). food sharing is not for screaming or running around once kids can understand not to do so. the kid in velochic's description sounds like he needed some parental guidance for sure. i hate those stupid phones in public places.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

I don't mind loud or interactive kids, or adults, in restaurants. It's a public place and I am there partly for the social experience! As long as no one is pouring a drink in my lap or peering pretentiously over my shoulder to examine which direction I spoon up my soup, I'm cool with other diners. I don't go to a public place to have a "peaceful" experience, or to pretend that others aren't sharing the space with me.

I used to tip well when there was a mess left at our table when our son was young - if I'm at a restaurant it's the staff's job to clean up, and I have never heard any different.

When I do very occasionally see a display of bad manners from children, I always assume that child is just having a bad day, and try to cut the family some slack. I don't think I've ever met a parent who thought, "Hey, yanno what? Let's go take the family out to a restaurant, just so we can blow a lot of money ruining the experience of OTHER DINERS bwahahahaha!"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> about waiting tables: i too have done my time in the food service industry. i wasn't falsely nice to people, but i can tell you the cardinal sin of restaurant going is not a screaming child-- it is a parent who does not clean up in the least after a cracker throwing fest. i have a messy child myself, but i ALWAYS clean up, i wipe the floor with a damp napkin and neatly pile the trillion (paper - we don't go to the restaurants with the other kind  ) napkins on the table. not to derail, but it is ridiculous to expect someone whose job it is to bring you quickly and correctly the food you ordered to sweep up and clean food out of cracks because you are too much of a slacker to clean up after your own kid. frequently, too, it is not the bussing staff that does this-- they're too busy and loaded down. or, ok, if your kid makes a humongous mess, then tip big. tip that person who is cleaning up after you. if not, THAT is a crappy restaurant going parent.


I don't generally completely clean up, but we make at least some effort, especially if the mess is really bad. We also figure it into our tip. If I'm leaving someone to clean up dropped noodles, crackers, etc., then I think they should received additional monetary compensation. I don't clean up the floors much - a lot of the places we eat seem to have carpet (admittedly with VERY short pile), and the staff have a carpet sweeper, so they can do the job much more efficiently than I can. But, I do clean up most of the mess on the tabletop and/or seats.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I have no clue what you are talking about with any of this here LOL!! I had no idea there was a 'right' way to eat bread or that it was possible to spoon soup away from you etc. I wonder how many people I have offended.


There's a big difference between table manners, which vary a lot not just from culture to culture but even by region within a culture, and basic respect. Dripping sauce on someone else isn't respectful. Eating with the correct hand in Ethiopia or slurping your noodles and belching to show your pleasure with a Chinese meal are table manners - good to know, but not quite in the same category, IMO, as actually being disruptive.

My DH and I went through a French Laundry phase and my DH also used to be in a role where he was cooking for (minor) royalty, and really, the classiest stance is to be concerned for the comfort and ease of others, not for all the little rules.

Quote:


> Sorry, but not only is that crass (to not put too fine a point on it), it also says, "my kid can make the biggest damn mess they want and I'm not going to teach them how to behave in a restaurant, I'm going to just try to control the damage." The fact that it's needed means they're not ready for restaurants and parents need to get a clue. Teach a child manners, and tip well. Heck, even at places like Denny's (if we ate there), I wouldn't do something like that.
> 
> When you say "the thing is dd is impeccably polite. not just thru her surroundings but also through *movies*" means, I can only assume that you're letting TV teach your child how to behave in public? You're right... we are completely opposite. My dd doesn't get her cues from TV, she gets them from us. As uptight and strict as we may seem, she *is* in social situations where the minutia matter. This isn't the lifestyle everyone chooses for their child, but I would hope that by 7 or 8 years old, no matter how it's accomplished, children have learned respect and how to live among the masses.


I think learning about manners can happen all kinds of ways. We did, with my nephews, and with a 6 year old are starting again, monthly meals where we would break out fancy and/or specific dishes & cutlery (collected at garage sales), cook a particular cuisine, go over the etiquette for that area or particular food, and have some fun with it while also teaching some table etiquette. The sort of fantasy aspect kept it interesting. Then they have the information.

I don't believe in making meal times really tense or being a finer-points-of-etiquette arbitrator. I agree that kids need to learn this stuff just for their own comfort and ease as they grow, but the key here is learn it - when they are older then they can make the choice. (I don't mean not correcting really gross behaviours, but stuff like how to butter the roll.) I really have never wanted my table to be about correcting each other; I want it to be somewhere we all come together to share food and our day and care about each other. The pea eating method (British vs. American) for example is something I've seen Brit-leaning parents go ballistic about and I just think well, ok, but this is the kind of thing that's so fun and easy to talk about with an 11 or 12 year old; if a 5 year old is getting peas onto a fork and into mouth that's pretty good.

For the more basic stuff (don't run around, don't play with the butter, etc.) I found taking my son to something like a local diner at the off-peak hours was a great way to get him familiar with the expectations and practicing. There was table service but it wasn't fussy or expensive as lessons go, and it's supporting a local business. But really there's no substitute for just being "on" as a parent at the meal itself.

There isn't one set of rules either, which we like to get across. A clambake is different than a formal Chinese meal. And commenting on other people's etiquette is not ok in our family.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SneakyPie*
> 
> When I do very occasionally see a display of bad manners from children, I always assume that child is just having a bad day, and try to cut the family some slack. I don't think I've ever met a parent who thought, "Hey, yanno what? Let's go take the family out to a restaurant, just so we can blow a lot of money ruining the experience of OTHER DINERS bwahahahaha!"


I agree with this in general. We do have a bottom-line removal policy: If the meal's not going well on the critical points (no running, shrieking, disrupting others, inappropriate pushing around of food/table settings/etc.), we leave right then. It's not about the fanciness of the restaurant, either - it's a bottom-line rule we have.

With my older son it only took once. My younger's just 7 months but I suspect, from his basic personality, we might have to do it a few times. For a while we always brought enough cash just to speed up the process.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I'm sure you know where this is going. This has, I'm sure, been discussed before, but I can't find old threads (heck, I can't find anything here anymore!). I hope to keep this civil.
> 
> ...


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> As I said in the OP, really I'm asking about all ages.
> 
> When you talk of "fancy manners" and "loose manners", what does that mean? Manners are manners. You should use them anywhere, IMO. However, different dining environments, I think, require different dining ETIQUETTE and that was kind of what I was thinking about.


 I am first wondering why you assume one needs one set of manners for a restaurant such as Outback and another for a nicer, more expensive establishment. Manners are manners as you so thoughtfully say later yet you seem to want to belittle places which are less than $250 per person. One should have the same respect for oneself and for those dining around them at Outback as one does at The French Laundry. The economic bracket of an establishment does not set the tone for manners. One should exhibit good manners no matter where you are.

I think the only thing that would change is one's style of dress and perhaps once's conversation level. Because truly, manners are manners and yes, even at McDonald's I'm going to put my napkin in my lap and hold my fork properly because that is who I am and that is how we are raising our son.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Well, I can't imagine that the guy didn't say something. I'm sure he did. I just wasn't so intent on their situation that I know exactly what happened. I do know that he did get the waiter (or busser) to clean off the back of the booth at one point and the parents were aware of what was going on. Remember, this kid was probably 7 or 8 (or perhaps 9), so we're not talking a toddler here. That was what really blew me away. It also made me think more about WHAT is being taught these days.
> 
> ...


 Actually the proper thing to do is to gently put your napkin to the left of your plate upon leaving the table. If your plate has already been removed you should place it in the center of your eating area. One should gently fold the napkin so as to not have food smears or other undesirable visuals within view of the other diners. In a nicer restaurant it will then be replaced with a clean napkin folded on the back of your chair.

However, what is considered proper is changing with the times and many do now consider it proper to leave the napkin on the chair if you have left the table but plan to return. As always, manners does not mean adhering to a strict list of right and wrong but adapting to the customs around us. So if you do find yourself in an area where it is considered polite to leave the napkin in your chair you should comply with those norms.

To answer some other points in your post, if I walk into The French Laundry and see a child dining I'm first going to wonder who in the world thinks a child is the most appropriate dining companion there, especially considering how difficult reservations are to obtain. Then I'm going to hope I am sitting in a different room because each room is small and the tables are very close together and having a child dining next to you would completely change the feel and mood of the experience. Now, if you secure the private room...eh, maybe. MAYBE. But there still isn't a door on that and I'd be afraid a child would not be able to resist the balcony and switch to an outside voice while out there between courses.

Interestingly enough I did encounter two teenagers (perhaps 13 and 16) dining at Moto once. I must admit I did a double take. They were there for the earliest possible seating and were leaving shortly after we started our meal.

I am going to pause and consider why anyone would bring a child to a three hour meal. I don't understand the reasoning. I also do not understand spending that kind of money on a child's dinner. Sorry, just don't. And I do think that we need to consider the other diners and the overall dining experience when deciding who dines where. Going back to your example, TFL is a very quiet, subdued and romantic restaurant. That is not an experience for a child. It just isn't. And if you are in Yountville, there are so many other, more casual, yet still amazing restaurants, to experience where a child would be more appropriate. The restaurant at the Auberge comes to mind. No, not TFL but very very close and as it is a hotel one would be more open to seeing children there. Plus the dining room is much more open, tables are set farther apart and a child at one is not going to impact every other table's dining experience. And I can guarantee that outside of Keller's private room it is possible to spend just as much there so you still have your $250 a plate bragging rights.

By the way, I'm also quite certain Thomas Keller would shudder (or simply chuckle) at the thought of Gramercy Tavern being on the same caliber as TFL. Just saying...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> And honestly, if I were at a restaurant and someone pulled out a garbage bag to deal with the mess their child was about to make, I'd be mortified for them (and at our typical haunts, the management would probably throw them out). Sorry, but not only is that crass (to not put too fine a point on it), it also says, "my kid can make the biggest damn mess they want and I'm not going to teach them how to behave in a restaurant, I'm going to just try to control the damage." The fact that it's needed means they're not ready for restaurants and parents need to get a clue. Teach a child manners, and tip well. Heck, even at places like Denny's (if we ate there), I wouldn't do something like that.


 Actually, I believe that shows the parent realizes their child has not yet reached a point in their life when they can be neat while eating. Yet, they still want to start exposing them to restaurants. So, for a small, family restaurant or fast food outlet I think coming prepared is completely acceptable. There isn't that much difference from this method and using the stick on place mats for children.

I continue to be confused as to why you view manners as completely situational. Or why you feel manners only extend to the behavior of yourself and your dining party but not to the consideration of what are appropriate and non-appropriate family dining venues. For if manners are truly meant to put others at ease (which, historically they are) then we should consider if bringing a family in for dinner at a restaurant such as The French Laundry or Per Se or Alinea is truly the proper thing to do.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

As long as the child is not running all crazy like and being disruptive to everyone, I'm cool with it. I'm not the only one in the restaurant and everyone has different standards. My kids have "manners" even in yes, McDonald's (gasp!) or Denny's. I would never bring a child to a super upscale restaurant, even well-behaved ones. How is that fun for the kid? I would rather have that experience sans children and be able to enjoy it more.

Also, Outback and Red Lobster can be just as expensive as you're describing. I'm confused why you felt the need to keep pointing out that it was an "upscale" restaurant and the differences between them. Family dining is called family dining for a reason (i.e. Outback and Red Lobster). A restaurant is a restaurant. And, frankly, manners are manners. Media influence has nothing to do with it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

ChristyMarie: Manners of some types are situational. I agree that the core of manners lies in consideration for other people. But...I'll take your example of putting your napkin in your lap (and why is that better manners than not doing so, anyway? It's nobody else's concern if I spill soup on my pants!) and holding your fork properly at McDonalds to illustrate what I mean. I've known several people who would be very uncomfortable if seated next to someone who was using more formal manners at McDonalds. They'd feel on edge, and would feel that the person was putting on airs, and talking down to them with body language. So, the manners being used would actually be contributing to making other diners feel uncomfortable...complete backfire. Napkins on laps and concern about how one holds a fork (I'm not sure I've ever actually used a fork at McDonalds) don't fit into the ambiance of a place like that.

In any case, I think there's a big difference between manners (ie. being considerate of others) and etiquette. I don't care about formal dining etiquette and go out of my way to avoid eating in palces where it's a high priority. I can't imagine enjoying a meal if I were concerning myself with whether or not the other diners could see my soiled napkin. (Seriously - do people actually care about things like this? If I were at a romantic, high end, fine dining restaurant, the last thing I'd be worried about is whether I could see a few spots on another diner's napkin.)

As to the comments about children dining in such places...if you're assuming that a child will be unable to resist the balcony or will switch to an outside voice, then you're the one ruining your meal. DS1 was a wild child sometimes, and I took him out of more than one restaurant to cool off. But, in very formal situations, he picked up the vibe, and I have very little doubt that he could have sat through an extended meal at a high end restaurant without any trouble at all, if I'd wanted to take him. OTOH, I know several adults that I wouldn't want to have to share such a space with, under any circumstances. Sure - statistically, children are more likely to exhibit certain kinds of behavioural issues, because they have less impulse control and have had less time to learn the etiquette...but that doesn't mean that every child eating in such a place is a threat to the ambiance.


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## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

My children (ages 3-8) follow my carefully set down eating rules whether at "the one step up from a fast food joint" such as Outback or hoity-toity dining establishments - which we have the luxury of visiting very often.

All three use napkins, the correct silverware etc.. although the eldest does have the annoying habit of attempting complex origami with the napkin. It's creative, we let it slide.









On the rare occasion there is any funny business, we do make it clear that we will leave the premises (regardless of where we are in the meal) and visit McDonalds instead if the behaviour is not corrected. It seems to work, my children loathe McDs.


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## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> *Actually the proper thing to do is to gently put your napkin to the left of your plate upon leaving the table. If your plate has already been removed you should place it in the center of your eating area. One should gently fold the napkin so as to not have food smears or other undesirable visuals within view of the other diners. In a nicer restaurant it will then be replaced with a clean napkin folded on the back of your chair. *


Good heavens, yes! Thank you.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> I continue to be confused as to why you view manners as completely situational. Or why you feel manners only extend to the behavior of yourself and your dining party but not to the consideration of what are appropriate and non-appropriate family dining venues. For if manners are truly meant to put others at ease (which, historically they are) then we should consider if bringing a family in for dinner at a restaurant such as The French Laundry or Per Se or Alinea is truly the proper thing to do.


I don't view manners as situational. What I said is that whether you are a guest of Chef Keller's or the local pizzaria, there should be some basic things that kids just *don't* do in restaurants. My point is that you don't have to teach them that they place the napkin on their seat when excusing themselves temporarily (yes that IS a hard and fast etiquette rule that has been around since I was a child... so at least 40-something years!), but you need to teach them to sit without turning around and dripping rib sauce on the guy in the next booth!

As for dining out in true fine dining and spending 3 hours (or even 4)... some kids actually ENJOY it and want to taste the food... and have the proper etiquette to know exactly how to conduct themselves (sometimes better than adults with their blackberries and smart phones, and drunken tirades!!). As talented as I am as a cook, I am not trained chef and some things I cannot create at home. I believe that children, who truly appreciate this type of food have just as much right to explore the cuisine as any other person. Children are people too, and as long as they can conduct themselves in the appropriate manner, why would their age or height determine if they are or are not allowed to appreciate good food. That's ridiculous. It's like saying that someone who is elderly can't possibly enjoy the food because their sense of smell had faded, so they shouldn't be allowed to eat at a place that has particularly delicate flavors. That's preposterous! Why is one restaurant not appropriate for a child who behaves themselves impeccably and appreciates the food? That's discrimination and to be honest, I am surprised that anyone at MDC would think it was O.K. to disrespect a child so. In fact, I would be very surprised if Chef Keller would even care where the money was coming from as long as there were no disruptions, proper etiquette was followed, and the patron enjoyed the food. No way would I have taken dd to a place like this when she was 5... but we worked our way up to it, and she is fine in fine dining now. We've never been with her to TFL, but have been to fine dining on the East coast. Chefs appreciate a child who can appreciate them. I know for a fact that Rick Bayless took his daughter to fine dining establishments when she was growing up. Do the chefs themselves have the market on letting their children enjoy good food?


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## Ammaarah (May 21, 2005)

This thread makes me want a Cheddar Bay biscuit! Eaten Continental style, natch.


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## ellemenope (Jul 11, 2009)

We only have one rule: We don't disturb the other patrons trying to enjoy their meals.

That's it. And, we go out of our way in some situations as to snatch the earliest reservation or choose to dine al fresco when feasible, because I am aware that even seeing a child at a fine dining establishment in the evening makes some people uncomfortable. So, we'll do our best to keep everything cool. But, we still want our favorite steak frites or smoked trout! And, we love dining with DD. To each their own.

That is manners. Etiquette is my husband's thing. He was raised by one very uppity Brit. Short of making a fool of myself, I don't care about that. I don't scan the room searching for fauxpas. And, I try my best to mind my own business and not let someones else's bad dining experience affect my own.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Manners are manners. You act polite no matter if you're at McDonald's or TFL. If you're judging someone who used the wrong spoon or ate Continental style I would be inclined to say that you're the one with no manners.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Spoon the soup away from yourself: Why?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Manners are manners. You act polite no matter if you're at McDonald's or TFL. If you're judging someone who used the wrong spoon or ate Continental style I would be inclined to say that you're the one with no manners.


Ah, but therein lies the rub. Some of these nuances aren't manners... they're etiquette. There are those who need to know and often use the rules of etiquette in different situations (and in State situations you have another set of rules called "protocol") and those who will never need them. It's neither bad or good, just different. But to teach these rules of etiquette isn't a bad thing, IMO, nor is it judgmental. It just is what it is. Some may use them, others not. I would say using the wrong spoon is an example of dining etiquette, not manners.

I found myself in a situation when I was barely an adult where I was having lunch with the future Vice President of the United States. Had I not had any knowledge of proper etiquette, I would absolutely NOT have been able to enjoy the meal. However, I felt comfortable and confident, and did enjoy the meal, the discussion, and the environment. It's a fond memory I have. Do I use those rules on a daily basis?? Hell no. But there is a difference between manners and etiquette. And good or bad, dining etiquette, where it matters, actually matters. I don't have a problem with it at all, and actually like some of the finer points of formality. Those that do have a problem with it will probably not put themselves in those situations, and that's cool too. To each his own.

As many have said before, though... there needs to be at least a minimum requirement of manners (by children and adults alike) to not disrupt the other diners.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Spoon the soup away from yourself: Why?


So as to not splash it on oneself. Likewise, tip the soup bowl away from oneself to get the last bit... same reason. This is so esoteric, I think that it's probably not followed unless in formal State dinners and at the most high end restaurants in the world. It's just one of those points that *can* be taught and may be used at some point in the future, so what's the harm in teaching it? Daily use... nope... if you need it... nice to know.


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## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Manners are manners. You act polite no matter if you're at McDonald's or TFL. If you're judging someone who used the wrong spoon or ate Continental style I would be inclined to say that you're the one with no manners.


Yes.

While I can appreciate velochic's passion in this thread, I certainly hope she's not staring at the patrons to ascertain and judge their level of manners and/or etiquette. Because, that would be abominable in the manners department. I absolutely detest staring.

I have impeccable dining decorum, but I don't trouble myself with how other people conduct themselves in the eatery, my focus is on my meal and my family.


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## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So as to not *splash it on oneself. * Likewise, tip the soup bowl away from oneself to get the last bit... same reason. This is so esoteric, I think that it's probably not followed unless in formal State dinners and at the most high end restaurants in the world. It's just one of those points that *can* be taught and may be used at some point in the future, so what's the harm in teaching it? Daily use... nope... if you need it... nice to know.


I don't partake in soup. It's too loud, no matter how careful one is.


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## Anirbas (Jun 12, 2005)

It is pretentious and gauche to brag about wealth and etiquette.

Warn me all you want. The above still stands.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

I just popped in to see more of this post and holy wow - I completely agree with the above poster


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## Lakeeffectsnow (Jan 12, 2011)

The classiest person I have ever known was a homeless woman with metal illness who ate left over McDonald's fries from the dumpster. She shared her food with anyone who was hungry. She used the spare change people gave her to buy canned food to feed stray cats. She had PSTD fighting in the resistance in WWII. She helped hide Jews (including my husband's great aunt) during the War. She never had a cruel thing to say about anyone. She had a smile for the world and never whined or complained. I'm pretty sure she had no idea what fork to use toward the end of her life, but she never would have ever made another person feel bad about using the wrong fork. People with grace and class never need to point it out to others.

P.S. I use to eat lunch with an US senator every day in second and third grade. He chewed with his mouth full and ate his own boogers. luckily I was able to enjoy the experience because of my natural sense of etiquette. I also peed in his parent's pool a few times at his birthday party.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I'm sure you know where this is going. This has, I'm sure, been discussed before, but I can't find old threads (heck, I can't find anything here anymore!). I hope to keep this civil.
> 
> ...










I didn't realize Outback and Red Lobster were so beyond the pale... I can't imagine wasting that kind of money for a meal and then having to worry about being hoity toity on top of it! A person can't even ENJOY a $250 meal at that rate. (Just my unrefined opinion, of course.) If I'm spending the money to eat out I want to be able to get a little bit buzzed and eat some unhealthy appetizers and I surely don't want to drag my four children along with me.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh, Red Lobster..Cheddar bay biscuits. So bad yet so good.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mommariffic*
> 
> Oh, Red Lobster..Cheddar bay biscuits. So bad yet so good.


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## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lakeeffectsnow*
> 
> The classiest person I have ever known was a homeless woman with metal illness who ate left over McDonald's fries from the dumpster. She shared her food with anyone who was hungry. She used the spare change people gave her to buy canned food to feed stray cats. She had PSTD fighting in the resistance in WWII. She helped hide Jews (including my husband's great aunt) during the War. She never had a cruel thing to say about anyone. She had a smile for the world and never whined or complained. I'm pretty sure she had no idea what fork to use toward the end of her life, but she never would have ever made another person feel bad about using the wrong fork. People with grace and class never need to point it out to others.
> 
> P.S. *I use to eat lunch with an US senator every day in second and third grade. He chewed with his mouth full and ate his own boogers.* luckily I was able to enjoy the experience because of my natural sense of etiquette. I also peed in his parent's pool a few times at his birthday party.


Did he put them on a plate and pierce them with the tines of his fine silver fork?

I'm just forking with you lol.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anirbas*
> 
> OP - you are a snob.
> 
> It is pretentious and gauche to brag about wealth and etiquette.


Wealth has nothing to do with etiquette. Neither do manners. I guess that's what's getting lost.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Wealth has nothing to do with etiquette. Neither do manners. I guess that's what's getting lost.


Perhaps not, but this thread has everything to do with your wealth. And that's pretty poor manners.


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## Anirbas (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Wealth has nothing to do with etiquette. Neither do manners. I guess that's what's getting lost.


Then why is the op FULL of how much you spend on your meals???


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Velochic, what does all of your talk about napkins, soup and vice presidents have to do with the example family you described? The parents and their sauce-flinging 8 y.o.? I do believe everyone here knows the difference between etiquette and manners. Honestly it seems like you are the one mixing the two together.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

We take our 2yr old DD out to restaurants quite often and have since she was 1 week old.

We expect her to sit in her seat. Sometimes we allow her to sit on our lap while we are waiting for the food.

We sometimes bring a toy or something for her to play with and almost always bring her some food to have too while we wait for our food to come. And also to make sure she has something to eat because she has food intolerences and is two...so sometimes she decides she doesn't like something she happily ate the day before.

We try to keep the mess down by not allowing her to throw food and such. But she is 2 and needs to feed herself, so it is often messy. We clean up some and leave a nice tip.

We expect her to not shout, we do not let her wander around, we try to limit her staring at other diners. We do not let her stand in the booth and look over it at people.

I find it more difficult to train other people to not try to make small talk with her. She doesn't like it and we are not into it ourselves.

We have not taken her to any fine dining establishments yet. She wouldn't enjoy the length of the meal and we wouldn't enjoy having to spend all of our energy keeping her happy.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

I was brought up to be able to comfortably attend very formal events. I was coached in how to both attend and serve at something along the lines of a State dinner. It wasn't ever something that was made into a big deal, it simply was the expectation. When you are raised internationally and within certain circles, it's unavoidable, I suppose. I suppose, however, the greatest focus of my early exposure to those situations was that it is always of paramount importance to make the people you are with feel comfortable and at ease. It was emphasized that if I noted a mistake someone made, I should never make mention of it, and simply pretend it hadn't happened.

In my current life? Hand me the finger food and a nice picnic with friends outside where kids can play over a formal dinner any day. I like low-key, and more than that, I like being able to focus more on the interactions of the people I share a meal with than whether or not they know to use the correct fork.

As for my children, well the little ones wouldn't be taken to anything more than a casual family restaurant. At two and three, they are simply NOT there yet. My oldest, while having exceptional manners, is soon to be exposed to new settings where she can practice those skills. I purposefully waited long enough that she won't be so concrete and outspoken if she did notice someone not following "the rules". I want her to be comfortable in a variety of settings, but mostly, I want her to learn to be an open and accepting person who will be able to help other people be at ease.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Velochic, what does all of your talk about napkins, soup and vice presidents have to do with the example family you described? The parents and their sauce-flinging 8 y.o.? I do believe everyone here knows the difference between etiquette and manners. Honestly it seems like you are the one mixing the two together.


I was asking if these things are taught to kids anymore. I come from very humble roots - rural farming family, working my way through college, parents who were small children during the Great Depression, and I was still taught impeccable manners and dining etiquette even though at the time I was taught it seemed like I'd never use it. Then, out of the blue, as poor working student, I am asked to a lunch where these minutia of dining etiquette become important... hell yeah, I'm glad my parents taught me what they did. I wasn't bragging about having lunch with a dignitary, I was pointing out that even if you think your kids will never use them, learning the rules of etiquette can be valuable and I'm bragging on my parents for having that forethought. All I'm saying is that, IMO, it doesn't hurt to teach your kids these things, it can only come in handy and make your kids more polite no matter where they are. If that makes me a snob to know the rules, then hell yeah, I'm a snob. And I'm teaching my daughter to be a snob, too, then. Neither I nor anyone else I have ever seen have ever commented to someone or to each other if they missed a fine etiquette point. I've never even seen someone say something about a rude child that is making the meal miserable for everyone around them. (Show me where I said that I watch other people and comment or judge if they choose the wrong utensil.) If you'll re-read my OP, I said that this incident got me to thinking about what is being taught to kids these days. I know what we do in our family, but obviously some parents are not even teaching their kids manners. I was wondering why. And yes, I'm mixing the two together because I think even if parents aren't teaching finer points, then at least teach them basic manners so they don't disturb others around them.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGirls*
> 
> Perhaps not, but this thread has everything to do with your wealth. And that's pretty poor manners.


Except that I don't have wealth.







We do fine, but I have never in my life been labeled "wealthy". This thread is about kids and restaurants and what they are being taught (or not taught).


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> I was brought up to be able to comfortably attend very formal events. I was coached in how to both attend and serve at something along the lines of a State dinner. It wasn't ever something that was made into a big deal, it simply was the expectation. When you are raised internationally and within certain circles, it's unavoidable, I suppose. I suppose, however, the greatest focus of my early exposure to those situations was that it is always of paramount importance to make the people you are with feel comfortable and at ease. It was emphasized that if I noted a mistake someone made, I should never make mention of it, and simply pretend it hadn't happened.
> 
> ...


This was the kind of info I was after. Thanks InsideVoice. And I totally agree with all you've stated.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

You can have wealth without being labeled as wealthy, FWIW.

In a thread in response to an incident in what sounds like a normal chain restaurant, you spend most of your posts discussing extremely fancy restaurants where you regularly spend over a hundred dollars on a meal, talk about even more extremely pricey places like The French Laundry, and imply that the only reason you don't go there and drop a couple grand on a meal is because they are not local to you. You've repeatedly discussed how much meals cost, how much you spend on going out to eat, and have made snide comments about restaurants that are reasonably priced. None of which is relevant in the slightest to an 8yo being really rude in a chain restaurant. I especially loved how you made sure to clarify that you would not normally eat in such an ordinary establishment, it was only because of special circumstances.

Regardless of how much wealth you have, all of that is pretty gauche according to my very middle-class manners.

My working-class parents never taught me the minutae of forks and bread-eating and whatnot. I have ended up eating at fancy places in a couple of odd circumstances, and it's not that hard, because people in those places usually have enough class to judge people by something other than the direction in which they spoon their soup. My unclassy manners of be nice, listen to what others have to say, be polite to the waitress, take care to not insult anyone, chew with your mouth closed etc seem to have worked out fine. At least a couple of those fancy events were job interviews and I did get the job.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Except that I don't have wealth.
> 
> ...


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I havent read the entire thread because all this blather is making my IBS act up, but I have a point of view.

I have seen children being raised by people who live in big cities surrounded culture, money, and refinement act like complete monsters in public. I have also seen children being raied in "humble roots" as you called them, act with complete respect, refinement, and ettiquete.

I have seen the former eat nothing but chicken nuggets and peanut butter and jelly, and the latter fully enjoy homemade tripe and escargot.

So really, what was the point of this? Money, social class, geographic location, NONE of this has anything to do with how people decide to raise their children. Atleast not IMO.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Anyone else totally flashing back to Jack dressed up in a tuxedo on the Titanic, and NO ONEknew he was a street rat until he told them so? I LOVED the message in that movie. LOVED IT!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGirls*
> 
> You can have wealth without being labeled as wealthy, FWIW.
> 
> ...


I agree that one can have wealth without being wealthy. There are many people whose net worth is greater than their lifestyle would indicate.

In one post I mentioned different types of restaurants and where we dine as a point of reference. Not "repeatedly". You are exaggerating. But it doesn't really matter one way or another. Most people determine how "fancy" a restaurant is based on what you're paying. Most people think that there are different rules that apply to these different places, especially where kids are concerned. I certainly didn't imply that we'd be eating at TFL every day if we lived in a place that had such restaurants, I simply said that we don't go to such places because we don't have them and we'd only been to fine dining on the East coast (where, um... we don't live). You are making the implication. Not me. I did not "repeatedly" talk about prices. They were mentioned as examples in one post. And no, we don't eat in places like Applebee's because their food is processed and we don't eat processed food. We choose to use our dining dollars to eat places where we like the food, and that happens to be non-family, non-chain, non-processed, non-"freeze-and-fry" places. If people didn't enjoy these types of places, then they wouldn't exist. Who cares whom eats there or not. You seem to take offense that people make different choices than you. You put yourself down as "unclassy" and "working-class", but I happen to think that working-class doesn't mean that a person has to be ignorant of social norms in different situations. That's your problem, not mine. I don't really care if you think me "gauche". Like assholes, everyone has their opinion and you have a right to yours.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGirls*
> 
> You can have wealth without being labeled as wealthy, FWIW.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Except that I don't have wealth.
> 
> ...


Ok, so this is where I'm confused then. Because, frankly, from your posts I thought you were in a very high income bracket. Not middle class or even upper middle class.

You spoke in a derogatory manner about restaurants in the $100-150 price range and really seemed to believe that only once you hit that magic $250 a plate price did you step into the world of fine dining. And you take your child there.

I know for us we are probably in an upper bracket yet those meals are events for us and I'm certainly not paying those prices for my son to eat when he's just as happy with a $5 cheeseburger or staying at home and cooking together.

We have eaten at the type of restaurants you are speaking - yes, even The French Laundry a couple of times - but those were rare, planned events. We go about once a year. In a good year maybe 3 times. Once in a while we really splurge - but those splurges have been exactly twice for big celebrations.

If you are truly not wealthy (in the common definition of the term) then I'm not sure how or why you are routinely spending that much at a restaurant. Because, really, the $250 per plate charge is just the beginning. You never get out for under about $700 but it is usually a four figure check. For two people. I can't imagine doing that on a regular basis.

And if your child is already eating at those types of places - well what is there to look forward to? I still remember the first time I went to that type of restaurant. It was exciting and fun and just a teeny bit intimidating but overall just really truly cool to be there. If I had been doing it since being a kid? Eh, I think the trill might have been gone by now. We're going to Next in two weeks and I am so excited and so looking forward to it and I can't figure out what to wear. I can't help but think some experiences should not be repeated so often as to become common.


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

velochic, for what it's worth, i read the whole thread before and after posting and i never got any kind of impression of bragging.

there was one poster who seemed to be talking about some super fancy restaurants i never even heard of, but, whatever.

i never had that perception from your posts, and i frankly don't know what the other folks are talking about. weren't you describing the behavior of a kid somewhere like a sonny's? wha? and then described "upscale" restaurants like RL or outback? so, no. i did get some "we go to fancy restaurants" kind of feeling from some other folks' posts, but some people spend money on stuff like that, which isn't an option for our family even if that was monetarily feasable.

don't let them make you feel bad for asking a question. jeez.

and... attacking people on mdc for being wealthy? please. nobody saw the TAO thread where lots of people on here say they're in the 100,000 bracket?

i personally don't-give-a-crap if you're wealthy or no, but if someone fails to understand the privilege that carries, that is a whole other story. that i did get from a comment or two about the server's job to be cleaning up after messy toddlers and whatnot (not from the OP). THAT is not cool. being wealthy isn't a big deal, it's how you impress that upon the world.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I am wealthy and only very rarely spend that much on a dinner out.

Also, I've eaten with people worth literally billions of dollars and from "old money", and those who are American eat American style, not continental style. I disagree that eating American style is bad etiquette. It's a cultural difference based on where you live.

But eating soup by moving the spoon away from you, napkins, etc., is all pretty standard etiquette. I think eating soup by moving the spoon away from you makes you drip less. I don't think people are likely to splash themselves with soup no matter how they use their spoon, but they'll drip a lot more scooping it toward them.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

You need to re-read my posts. This is simply not true.

THIS is what I said:

"We (including dd, 9yo) have enjoyed, as a family, what I would call "nice" dining since dd was about 5yo, and we eat out about once a week. This may or may not involve white tablecloth, but isn't what I'd call "fine" dining (the bill may be $100 - $150, but *rarely* more). We really don't have fine dining of the caliber of The French Laundry or Gramercy Tavern where we live, so[spending] any more [on a meal] would be rare. Still, it's *occasionally upscale* enough that dd needs to use nuances"

ETA: I do think that TFL is fine dining... and last I knew, the tasting menu was $250 or so. My niece eats a ton of fast food with her kids and spends about the same we do on eating out. Nobody is saying she's wealthy because she can afford fast food 4 or 5 times a week. I can't imagine anyone saying that spending $400 - $500/month on eating out would put you in the "wealthy" bracket.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> Ok, so this is where I'm confused then. Because, frankly, from your posts I thought you were in a very high income bracket. Not middle class or even upper middle class.
> 
> *You spoke in a derogatory manner about restaurants in the $100-150 price range* *and really seemed to believe* that only once you hit that magic $250 a plate price did you step into the world of fine dining. And you take your child there.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I am wealthy and only very rarely spend that much on a dinner out.
> 
> ...


Bingo! Or learning a way that works for multiple cultures. Same goes for chopsticks, eating with your hands properly (especially in Muslim countries), etc.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> velochic, for what it's worth, i read the whole thread before and after posting and i never got any kind of impression of bragging.
> 
> ...


This.

As far as I can tell everyone agrees kids should have manners in a restaurant (and in life!)

As far as I can tell Velochic wants to talk about restaurant etiquette - which is not my cup of tea, but absolutley fine.

Etiquette may be useful for some kids in some situations or it may just be fun interest for the parents and child. Knowing to spoon soup away from you does not make you a snob - glaring or tsking at someone who does not know that - does. I have not seen evidence of that on this thread.

I call a little reverse elitism on some of the above posts. Calling someone out for saying she goes to expensive restaurants and wants to discuss etiquette? Really?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I agree. As I said, in casual places, there are just as many adult cell phone users and loud talkers that disrupt. These people, though, are often raising kids, so what example are they giving?


I've seen a lot of cell phone comments in this thread and I just want to address this issue. You assume that everyone who is at a restaurant is there for their family meal. I go out to eat with my husband about 3 times a month for the specific purpose of having a business meeting. We are usually in the city, about 60 miles away from home, because he just takes a few hours away from work to meet me. My 16 month old is always present. We seldomly talk on the phone at restaurants, but we spend plenty of time using the phone for a calculator, texting clients back, ect. We also pull out the laptop *gasp* when I need to use quickbooks. We often choose restaurants with free wifi specifically for this purpose. And, if you looked at us, you'd see a dirty landscaper and a mom with a baby. Basically, you would assume that we are texting and "not even talking to each other". You probably think we are horrible examples of parents. You know, working for ourselves, restructuring our lives to be able to spend more time with DD, building a business that may one day be hers.

You have no idea why people are on their cell phones and why they are at the restaurant in the first place. I hate to think that people like you are judging me when Im trying to do my job with my family present.

By the way, etiquette regarding things like silverware, how to eat your soup, ect is a sign of wealth. I cant afford salad forks and soup spoons, nor can I really afford to dine in the places that set their tables with them.

Also, after working in local, casual restaurants for several years, I can agree with Hildare that the worst sin you can make is not cleaning up after your child.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

My kids are taught ettiquette and manners. Good manners requires consideration for others, which applies as much to complaining adult patrons as to younger children in unchild friendly places.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Also, after working in local, casual restaurants for several years, I can agree with Hildare that the worst sin you can make is not cleaning up after your child.


I don't doubt this is true - for the server.

As a fellow diner I could care less about another tables mess unless it is really extreme.

I don't think we should make extra mess for a server but babies and toddlers are messy.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I've seen a lot of cell phone comments in this thread and I just want to address this issue.


i think this is more about 'disruptive' cell phone usage. not just any cell phone usage.

woah woah woah - this thread has really gone places hasnt it?

a $100 meal for a family of 4 i dont call wealthy.

i will also say even in the American culture - there is a big difference in the etiquette culture between the east coast and west coast that i have noticed.

also i think manners is not related to wealth, but definitely etiquette is. for a family whose high dining experience is fast food - you can immediately spot in a communal dining experience. generational poverty usually means lack of etiquette in my experience.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> You have no idea why people are on their cell phones and why they are at the restaurant in the first place. I hate to think that people like you are judging me when Im trying to do my job with my family present.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, unless you put up a sign, I would guess that people, in general, don't know why you're on your cell phone at the dinner table and would be more inclined to think that you can't get off of your smart phones rather than jumping to the conclusion that you are having your monthly business meeting with child in tow. People do judge... just like they do when they see a kid strapped into a car seat in a running car while the parent is inside. Nobody knows the whole story. I know that *I* would not make the odd assumption that you're having a business meeting with your husband. Most people who dine out as a family are usually trying to get away from that. It's just not a natural conclusion to come to, IYKWIM. Nobody is going to think, "A couple, with a young toddler going out to eat. They must be having a business meeting."

And I still concur that etiquette is not a sign of wealth, necessarily. This thread makes me wonder if it's a sign of the times, so to speak. That is, my parents may have been rural farming and civil servant folk, but they knew quite well how to entertain and the proper rules to teach their kids - it had nothing to do with income. Like I said, though, my parents are probably older than many MDC momma's grandparents and I KNOW I am one of the older moms here. Perhaps it's generational.

As for cleaning up after a child... table, yes. Crawling on the floor? Are you kidding me? They have sweepers and you can tip appropriately.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> And I still concur that etiquette is not a sign of wealth, necessarily.


agreed. this thread reminds me of the movie - My Fair Lady.


----------



## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Except that I don't have wealth.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't know what your intention was with this thread. But because of the way you've gone about it, I don't at ALL get that your main point is about the importance of kids knowing basic manners. The info I've walked away from this thread with is: You spend a lot of money on fancy dinners; you have extremely high expectations of childrens' table etiquette (some of which you even admit is too "esoteric" to be practical, but yet you've spent so much time and detail talking about it...why?) I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant; that the Outback and Red Lobster are just wannabe nice restaurants, and that velochic and family DO. NOT. EAT at places like Denny's.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> You have no idea why people are on their cell phones and why they are at the restaurant in the first place. I hate to think that people like you are judging me when Im trying to do my job with my family present.


I do not judge people for being on the cell phone at a restaurant - hey, they are not my dinner companions, so I do not really care.

My issue with cell phones in public in general (restaurants, in line at grocery stores, etc) is that cell phones are disruptive. I do not want to hear ringing from another table, and for some reason people seem to talk louder, by far, on cell phones than to a companion. I have no idea why - but loud talking on cell phones is an issue.

So (and this is not addressed to you - obviously I have no idea of your cell phone habits) set things to vibrate and make an effort to talk in a normal tone at a normal level.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant


I'm glad you learned at least one thing from this thread.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Unfortunately, unless you put up a sign, I would guess that people, in general, don't know why you're on your cell phone at the dinner table and would be more inclined to think that you can't get off of your smart phones rather than jumping to the conclusion that you are having your monthly business meeting with child in tow. People do judge... just like they do when they see a kid strapped into a car seat in a running car while the parent is inside. Nobody knows the whole story. I know that *I* would not make the odd assumption that you're having a business meeting with your husband. Most people who dine out as a family are usually trying to get away from that. It's just not a natural conclusion to come to, IYKWIM. Nobody is going to think, "A couple, with a young toddler going out to eat. They must be having a business meeting."
> 
> ...


Well, judge if you want to. In the years Ive spent running a small business, keeping "strange" work hours, and hauling my kid everywhere with me to do our work Ive learned that there is a good portion of people who are NOT 9-5ers and DO do "odd" things like have business meetings with their toddler present. Lost of family owned businesses do this. Plus, even if it wasnt me and my situation, I still make the argument that you have NO IDEA why people are on their phones. DH is on his phone everyday for the entire lunch checking email and texting. We have a no using telephone while driving policy in our family, and since he is always either working with loud machines or has his hands in the dirt lunch is pretty much the only hour of the day he is able to respond to people. Im just tired of hearing people complain about people "being on their smartphones" in public. Its not generational, its just making the assumption that everyone is using their phones for entertainment purposes only. You know where my DH ate lunch before his Iphone? He didnt. He just worked as fast as he could so he could come home and still have the energy to respond to clients at the end of the day in our living room on the internet when I was trying to have dinner. There are tons people who do this, so dont assume everyone is playing angry birds.

If my kid threw a bunch of stuff on the floor, I crawl on the floor and get it. A lot of restaurants do not allow servers to use sweepers while customers are in the building, and I for one have crawled on the floor to pick up some kids crushed up bananna and HATED the mom. Server, not servant.

Kathymuggle,
ITA. Our phones are kept on vibrate and we always try to take verbal conversations outside. I have no idea why people feel the need to yell on the phone.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Most people aren't you, Holly. Most people *are* on their smartphones being rude to their dining companions. I was telling you what others are probably thinking. How is someone to assume that a small family of two adults and a toddler are having a business dinner? I mean, what person would conclude that? All I'm saying is that when you see people on their phones at dinner, 99% of the time it's not urgent business that can't wait until they've had their family time. Unfortunately, with all of your good intentions, you get included with the majority. I'm not saying *I* am judging, just that people do wonder.

As for the incident with the kid I wrote about... the parents weren't paying a lick of attention to him. I doubt that you'd (you, Holly, not the collective you) be ignoring your child if you were conducting business because of your parenting principles that brought you to MDC. Something had those parents engaged that they couldn't take their eyes off of the screen and parenting was not on their mind. As an AP momma, I doubt you would do that in any circumstance. But people don't know your whole story, and yes they make assumptions. Good or bad, it's human nature.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So as to not splash it on oneself. Likewise, tip the soup bowl away from oneself to get the last bit... same reason. This is so esoteric, I think that it's probably not followed unless in formal State dinners and at the most high end restaurants in the world. It's just one of those points that *can* be taught and may be used at some point in the future, so what's the harm in teaching it? Daily use... nope... if you need it... nice to know.


By the way, one does not ever tip a soup bowl in any way. Away from oneself or towards. It would be considered gauche and crass to attempt to get every last drop.

Just keep that in mind for your next French Laundry dinner. HTH!


----------



## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> To be honest, I don't know what your intention was with this thread. But because of the way you've gone about it, I don't at ALL get that your main point is about the importance of kids knowing basic manners. The info I've walked away from this thread with is: You spend a lot of money on fancy dinners; you have extremely high expectations of childrens' table etiquette (some of which you even admit is too "esoteric" to be practical, but yet you've spent so much time and detail talking about it...why?) I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant; that *the Outback and Red Lobster are just wannabe nice restaurants*, and that velochic and family DO. NOT. EAT at places like Denny's.


Not just wannabe nice restaurants - one step up from fast food, even! If it weren't for the zingers toward Applebees and Denny's, I'd think she's never been to a restaurant that was closer to fast food than Outback.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I was asking if these things are taught to kids anymore. I come from very humble roots - rural farming family, working my way through college, parents who were small children during the Great Depression, and I was still taught impeccable manners and dining etiquette even though at the time I was taught it seemed like I'd never use it. Then, out of the blue, as poor working student, I am asked to a lunch where these minutia of dining etiquette become important... hell yeah, I'm glad my parents taught me what they did. I wasn't bragging about having lunch with a dignitary, I was pointing out that even if you think your kids will never use them, learning the rules of etiquette can be valuable and I'm bragging on my parents for having that forethought. All I'm saying is that, IMO, it doesn't hurt to teach your kids these things, it can only come in handy and make your kids more polite no matter where they are. If that makes me a snob to know the rules, then hell yeah, I'm a snob. And I'm teaching my daughter to be a snob, too, then. Neither I nor anyone else I have ever seen have ever commented to someone or to each other if they missed a fine etiquette point. I've never even seen someone say something about a rude child that is making the meal miserable for everyone around them. (Show me where I said that I watch other people and comment or judge if they choose the wrong utensil.) If you'll re-read my OP, *I said that this incident got me to thinking about what is being taught to kids these days. I know what we do in our family, but obviously some parents are not even teaching their kids manners. I was wondering why. And yes, I'm mixing the two together because I think even if parents aren't teaching finer points, then at least teach them basic manners so they don't disturb others around them.*


Thank you.







I sincerely appreciate the explanation and clarification. Thank you for acknowledging that you are mixing the two concepts together. I was genuinely confused as to your intention. I'm still not convinced your motivation is what you say it is, but that doesn't matter, does it? Coffeegirl explained my point of view very well:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> To be honest, I don't know what your intention was with this thread. But because of the way you've gone about it, I don't at ALL get that your main point is about the importance of kids knowing basic manners. The info I've walked away from this thread with is: You spend a lot of money on fancy dinners; you have extremely high expectations of childrens' table etiquette (some of which you even admit is too "esoteric" to be practical, but yet you've spent so much time and detail talking about it...why?) I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant; that the Outback and Red Lobster are just wannabe nice restaurants, and that velochic and family DO. NOT. EAT at places like Denny's.


Velochic, this is true for any issue discussed on any forum anywhere: if many people are concluding that you are saying one thing, while you believe you are saying something else, well then this tells you that you are not making your point clearly. I think that's what's happening here.

Another phenomenon I've observed: the OP makes a point, another person riffs on a variation of that subject, and then the rest of the readers assign the second person's post to the OP's post. Which results in confusion. I think that's also happening here.

I think the rules of ettiquitte and protocol are kind of interesting, my sainted mother taught me some of them. For what it's worth, she and my dad both grew up during the Great Depression as well. I definitely think parents put a higher premium on etiquette (not to be confused with manners) back then, more than many parents do now.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Most people aren't you, Holly. *Most people *are* on their smartphones being rude to their dining companion*s. I was telling you what others are probably thinking. How is someone to assume that a small family of two adults and a toddler are having a business dinner? I mean, what person would conclude that? All I'm saying is that when you see people on their phones at dinner, 99% of the time it's not urgent business that can't wait until they've had their family time. Unfortunately, with all of your good intentions, you get included with the majority. I'm not saying *I* am judging, just that people do wonder.
> 
> As for the incident with the kid I wrote about... the parents weren't paying a lick of attention to him. I doubt that you'd (you, Holly, not the collective you) be ignoring your child if you were conducting business because of your parenting principles that brought you to MDC. Something had those parents engaged that they couldn't take their eyes off of the screen and parenting was not on their mind. As an AP momma, I doubt you would do that in any circumstance. But people don't know your whole story, and yes they make assumptions. Good or bad, it's human nature.


I think we can just disagree about this.We can discuss it another time on a spinoff thread if I or someone else starts one


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


I agree journeymom. And whatever you or others might think my intentions are, it was to discuss what now I realize is a delicate topic. Perhaps I'm not making my point, but I disagree that many people are concluding that I'm saying something other than what I intended because I got wonderful conversation.


----------



## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

Manners are always necessary, IMO, like decent clean clothing. Etiquette is not vital, but may be appropriate based on context, like say your church outfit (or red carpet gown lol). I think attitudes to etiquette are probably similar to one's general philosophy on how important or useful it is to be able to "fit in" in the surrounding environment, and how much of your self confidence depends on your being in tone or inversely, a rebel.

Personally, I trend conformist, and I like to know, and like my son to know, proper table etiquette. That said, it has been about 3 years that we have started taking our son to "upscale" restaurants, on special occasions. DH & I have always treated ourselves to a fine-dining experience for our wedding aniversary. And when DS was younger, we got a baby sitter for him and went alone. Then 3 years ago, he said he wanted to come celebrate our anniversary too - after all he was a member of the family too and deserved to participate . So, we didn't downgrade our experience, we upgraded his - he had already been eating out at more casual restaurants, pizzerias etc.

Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.

My child can pick a plate for himself at a buffet gracefully. He can use a napkin. He can use silverware. He knows what glass is for water and what for white or red wine or spumante (though he only uses the one, of course). He knows to stay seated reasonably composed and keep his elbows off the table and speak in a conversational tone. If a meal progresses too long, he might get bored or restless. Then he may leave his seat and go outside if possible, or otherwise he sometimes comes and sits in my lap and we play hand games like scissor rock paper, or he gets his dad's phone and plays some game on that. And that is perfectly child appropriate, non disruptive behaviour in any social context. Actually it is the same sort of behaviour he has to maintain at home (with a few pieces of silverware less and no buffet!). It doesn't have to be a big deal.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> ETA: I do think that TFL is fine dining... and last I knew, the tasting menu was $250 or so. My niece eats a ton of fast food with her kids and spends about the same we do on eating out. Nobody is saying she's wealthy because she can afford fast food 4 or 5 times a week. I can't imagine anyone saying that spending $400 - $500/month on eating out would put you in the "wealthy" bracket.


I would say that. That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class. $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage. If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40. But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.


----------



## Buzzer Beater (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> I would say that. That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class. $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage. If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40. But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.


Yup, also my monthly food budget. And if we are ever so lucky to get a Red Lobster I 'spec we'll dress up a little and leave the babe at home.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Seriosa - excellent post. My dh is not American and in his home country it is that way, as well.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> I would say that. That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class. $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage. If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40. But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.


ETA: I'm not going to argue with you. To each his own.


----------



## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

> > Originally Posted by *seriosa*
> > Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't. Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it. Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be. Go cry in a corner.


Maybe we need to start talking about internet manners now...

And we probably could afford to eat at TFL (once), but it's not high on my priority list *shrug*

And saying you work your ass off and that's why you're where you are may open up a can of worms, it already has on another thread. Just an fyi.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Maybe we need to start talking about internet manners now...
> 
> ...


Oh, please. Explain. We're near retirement and have spent a lifetime getting where we are, supported my dh's mother until her death and now have my mother living with us. What can of worms would that be?


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Oh, please. Explain. We're near retirement and have spent a lifetime getting where we are. What can of worms would that be?


I think it's the class war thread in TAO. It was just a friendly warning hon b/c a lot of people are really offended by that statement.

And back to food. Isn't the bread rule that you tear a piece off, butter it, eat it, repeat? Why is it so rude to butter your whole roll? Does this mean I can never butter my entire Cheddar Bay biscuit again?


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Woah! $400-$500 a month on eating out? And you _dont_ consider that wealthy? That is more than our food budget for the month including food out and food in. Thats more than I pay for housing. I consider that wealthy for sure. You would have to buy 100 Big Mac meals from McDonalds to spend that much in a month.

I think that what you are looking for is for someone to say that Yes, they teach their child which fork to eat with and which way to dip their soup out, but you are asking people who dont regularly take their kids out to eat at a place where there even IS a second fork. I eat almost exclusively local restaurants that serve locally grown food and hormone free meat, but they dont have the extra silverware. Little things like which way to spoon your soup out is great to know, but I think you paired it with people not paying attention to their kids while they were eating, letting kids wipe bbq sauce everywhere, and scenes from casual dining settings. If you had straight asked "Do you teach your kids fine dining etiquitte?" your response would have been different. I think its great that your kids are learning that stuff, and it may come in handy one day.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> I think it's the class war thread in TAO. It was just a friendly warning hon b/c a lot of people are really offended by that statement.
> 
> And back to food. Isn't the bread rule that you tear a piece off, butter it, eat it, repeat? Why is it so rude to butter your whole roll? Does this mean I can never butter my entire Cheddar Bay biscuit again?


What statement, "hon" (and I'm no friend, either)? I think you have me confused with someone else.

Yes that is the bread rule. And you can do whatever you want to do with it. God, I would hate to go through life as bitter as you are.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Bolding mine:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't. *Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it. * Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be. *Go cry in a corner.*


Ouch. That seems a bit uncalled for and definitely not a statement Miss Manners or Emily Post would agree was polite.

I believe there is a difference between apologizing about where you are in life and belittling those who are not in the same position. Or assuming they did not work as hard as you and that is why they are where they are. Your "lot in life" is about so much more than hard work.

There's also a difference between quietly being able to afford things and holding that over others as proof of being a better person (or harder worker) than they are.


----------



## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seriosa*
> Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.


thank you, for saying that. "child-free environments"? what next.

OP, have you frequently encountered the kind of behavior exhibited by this particular child? i would think it is not the norm, so who knows what the background is. also, am somewhat mystified as to the connection between this incident and general manners and specific etiquette? because it is safe to assume it's not often that children that age behave thus.

manners are important. etiquette is the production people make in order to make a statement about their "class", wealth and status







. to each his own.

(reposting, quote malfunction earlier)


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

The statement about how hard work was what got you to the wealthy point in your life. Go read the thread if you want more.

Again back to food. * Why* is that the bread rule though? I get that it is, but I want to know why. Why is tearing food up more polite than biting it off? I need to know and I'm too lazy to Google lol.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*


And you'll notice I edited it out immediately after posting it. You were too quick to swoop in and catch me. Good for you. And actually, it's what I truly feel, so perhaps it's best to be out there. I hope you and honey have made yourselves feel better by Velo-bashing. It seems you needed it, and I have no problems with you taking out your frustrations on me.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> The statement about how hard work was what got you to the wealthy point in your life. Go read the thread if you want more.
> 
> Again back to food. * Why* is that the bread rule though? I get that it is, but I want to know why. Why is tearing food up more polite than biting it off? I need to know and I'm too lazy to Google lol.


I just read the thread. I made two statements, neither of which you are referring to, and neither having anything to do with wealth or work or anything else. Perhaps YOU should go re-read the thread.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

You said you got where you were "working your ass off". That statement got people on the other thread upset (not with you or your direct statement, just when some else said it) b/c a lot of life is luck (or something, I stopped reading halfway through b/c of screaming kids).

So does anyone know about the bread rule?

And I just realised I never chimed in as to what I expect my kids to do at dinners out. We bring a small bag with crayons, s small toy and some books for DD1. That usually holds her together and if not we leave. The baby is different. I'll bring her food (b/c we go out for chicken wings a lot during football season and babies don't get chicken wings here), a soft toy and if she gets fussy I'll nurse her, which I'm guessing would be a no no at TFL. If nursing doesn't work I walk out, walk the baby in the parking lot and DH will finish his food, pay the bill and join me in the car.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

...that's the problem with the world today. peoples are angry and don't read posts for comprehension. that and they slurp their soups and butter the whole dang piece of toast....

everybody take a deep breath. and just to toss this in the salad... there are people who live in big cities and don't have big kitchens, and go out to eat a whole lot more than people who live in suburbs, small towns, and rural areas.

and i had to look up wth a french laundry was. i figured from the name it was either a euphemism for a bordello, a place to get your stripey shirt with white cuffs cleaned, or from the context a fancy place. must be nice!

and.. um... according to a recent poll, there seem to be, again, lots of mdc folks who claim incomes at least above 75,000 so i really don't see why anybody's up in arms about who makes what and spends it on fancy dinners.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

I had to look up TFL the first time too. And then I didn't know what a lot of the menu was lol.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i did.. we got frog legs around here too. i imagine it's a completely different experience from the fl though. though hilarious to think about the similarities between what locals (and my own relatives) around here eat and high french cuisine.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> You said you got where you were "working your ass off". That statement got people on the other thread upset (not with you or your direct statement, just when some else said it) b/c a lot of life is luck (or something, I stopped reading halfway through b/c of screaming kids).
> 
> No, I didn't say that. Look again. I said that in THIS thread (in a post I actually immediately deleted and you caught). Not in any other thread.


----------



## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I think that what you are looking for is for someone to say that Yes, they teach their child which fork to eat with and which way to dip their soup out, but you are asking people who dont regularly take their kids out to eat at a place where there even IS a second fork. I eat almost exclusively local restaurants that serve locally grown food and hormone free meat, but they dont have the extra silverware. Little things like which way to spoon your soup out is great to know, but I think you paired it with people not paying attention to their kids while they were eating, letting kids wipe bbq sauce everywhere, and scenes from casual dining settings. If you had straight asked "Do you teach your kids fine dining etiquitte?" your response would have been different. I think its great that your kids are learning that stuff, and it may come in handy one day.


What I got from OP's original post was that she took an episode she witnessed and widened the scope of discussion. The wealth-or-not-wealth is rather irrelevant to the discussion. Do children have opportunities to socialise in adult contextts, and do they know how to do so? Is there a behaviour scale (like there might be a dress scale) that distinguishes what you and/or your children do in your "Date-night-worthy-nice-pants" place with respect to your "oops-I-forgot-to-defrost-dinner-lets-get-something-out" place, whatever your frame of reference for these places might be? Is etiquette just about distinguishing a fish knife from a steak knife and knowing where to put your napkin? Elbows on the table - is that catalogued under etiquette o manners? Tipping (for adults) - etiquette or manners? What about messing up - all those posts on who should do the cleaning? Even if you use one fork or one spoon, if used correctly theres not a lot to clean up - etiquette or manners? The discussion is indeed interesting.


----------



## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> So does anyone know about the bread rule?


http://www.etiquettescholar.com/dining_etiquette/table_manners/dinner_etiquette/breads_and_pasta/bread.html


----------



## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't. *Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it. * Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be. *Go cry in a corner.*


I'm so glad a couple people quoted "how you really feel" about this before you back-pedaled and edited it out. I'd love to see the quote where someone- anyone- asked you to apologize for being wealthy. Or begrudged you your wealth or lack thereof. Or indicated that they were jealous of you or resentful of their own lot in life because yours is so much better. Or where anyone stated that they have issues with wealthy people in general.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> *I can't imagine anyone saying that spending $400 - $500/month on eating out would put you in the "wealthy" bracket.*


Okay - this is a joke, right? I can't even begin to imagine spending $400-$500/month on eating out. It will never happen....maybe it did in June, if we count ds1's grad banquet ($90 ticket, and ds1, dh and I were all in attendance), but I don't think so. I'd definitely think someone spending that much money on eating out fit into the "wealthy" category (or that they were on a business expense account).


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> http://www.etiquettescholar.com/dining_etiquette/table_manners/dinner_etiquette/breads_and_pasta/bread.html


Wow. So, people actually enjoy dining out at "nice" places, huh? I think I'm wired weird. Dining etiquette of that type just seems freaky and strange to me (not that people follow it - that it exists at all). I can't imagine being societally micromanaged to that degree, just because I wanted to eat a freaking bread roll!

In answer to part of the OP, I do think that instruction in formal etiquette is on the wane. I think there are probably many reasons for that. But, I think one of the key ones is that fewer and fewer people accept the idea that one's dining etiquette somehow reflects on one's value as a person. That used to be a given (my grandmother's generation certainly believed it, by and large), but it doesn't seem to be accepted as a basic premise to the same degree these days.


----------



## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> What statement, "hon" (and I'm no friend, either)? I think you have me confused with someone else.
> 
> *Yes that is the bread rule. And you can do whatever you want to do with it.* *God, I would hate to go through life as bitter as you are.*












I think we are being etiquette punked, people.

Velochic, much applause for the fine performance art.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Doraline Kae*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> I'm so glad a couple people quoted "how you really feel" about this before you back-pedaled and edited it out.


For goodness sake, I have posted something in haste or anger, realised my error, and edited it out. That is a polite and kind thing to do.

I honestly do not understand why everyone is so up in arms. Was it an error to make a post with ties to wealth, etiquette and manners in the same thread? Probably. Is it worth the mean spiritedness shown on this thread? I do not think so.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Wait, how am I bitter? B/c I called her hon? Dude, I called the cashier at Wal-Mart hon the other day. It's reflex. But if velochic wants to think I'm bitter, well bless her little heart.

And bread at fancy restaurants just seems like too much trouble. I am weirdly fixated on bread today b/c I am craving carbs and we're out of bread at home (where I butter the entire slice and bite it).


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

double post


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Ok. I am not wealthy. I am pretty middling according to all stats. I never claim poverty through. I spend 400$ a month eating out. There are 5 of us. One meal out per week at an Outback type place is about 75$ after tip, throw in a pizza order and I am at 100$ per week.
> 
> The above is OT - but people can be "not wealthy" and spend money on restaurants. Just for all the folks who are exclaiming over the 400$


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm not exclaiming over the $400, as such. I'm exclaiming over the "can't imagine anyone saying" that spending that much makes someone wealthy.

We're not in poverty. We're not wealthy (dh's income would probably qualify us as wealthy in some places, but not around here), either. And, I honestly can't even imagine spending $400-$500/month on eating out. I've known a few people who did spend that much, and they were, without exception, either wealthy or on business expense accounts (oh - and two cases of people racking up debt that they'll never, ever be able to pay, but that's another category, imo).

ETA: I"m not saying you have to be wealthy to spend that much. I'm saying that I find it really strange to suggest that it's somehow unimaginable that someone would equate that much money on eating out with wealth.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I called the cashier at wegmans Dear. "thank you, dear" Also a reflex. Something is giving me the impression we are of the young and disrespectful crowd or something.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Wait, how am I bitter? B/c I called her hon? Dude, I called the cashier at Wal-Mart hon the other day. It's reflex. But if velochic wants to think I'm bitter, well bless her little heart.
> 
> And bread at fancy restaurants just seems like too much trouble. I am weirdly fixated on bread today b/c I am craving carbs and we're out of bread at home (where I butter the entire slice and bite it).


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

by the way in general terms - at least that is the statistics out there - that ones definition of wealthy is anyone who makes double their income. this is in general term.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I called the cashier at wegmans Dear. "thank you, dear" Also a reflex. Something is giving me the impression we are of the young and disrespectful crowd or something.


Actually, I tend to associate "dear" and "hon" and such with older people, not younger ones. It grates on me, but I've learned to just ignore it, because the people saying it rarely mean anything by it. I think it's a regional thing.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

*On the bread thing....*

I've never understood the why of that particular *rule* but I will say this, by breaking it off and eating it in one bite pieces you don't ruin your lipstick. Really, it works. LOL.

I don't think I have anything else to add beyond that shallow and vain observation at this point.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> by the way in general terms - at least that is the statistics out there - that ones definition of wealthy is anyone who makes double their income. this is in general term.


Probably very true. Or at least double the income living in the same COL area.


----------



## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Wow. So, people actually enjoy dining out at "nice" places, huh?


yes

I don't want to get into this whole thread but people do use these manner like those that I posted, there are times when it does matter--if you should ever need to deal with others that were raised this way, a situation where you need to have a formal dinner for a business and you are dealing with say someone from outside the us (JUST AN EXAMPLE) having certain manners can mean a deal breaker-others do reflect on manners IRL-some don't

not getting into judgement here-just stating it does happen


----------



## Mamja (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> *On the bread thing....*
> 
> ...


In the same vein, I would imagine it's because nobody wants to think about your saliva, germs, food detritus, and yes, lipstick on the bread if you took a bite then put the rest down.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> yes
> 
> ...


Oh, I get that. I avoid situations where it matters like the plague. I'm just surprised that people actually find dining out by these "rules" to be an enjoyable experience, is all. Styles differ. If I do find myself in such a situation, I'll be very grateful when it's over.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mamja*
> 
> In the same vein, I would imagine it's because nobody wants to think about your saliva, germs, food detritus, and yes, lipstick on the bread if you took a bite then put the rest down.


A lot of these "rules" date back to before anybody had a clue what germs even were, so I don't think it would be about that. But, seriously, if someone is going to think about another diner's saliva, germs, etc. being on that diner's own roll, I can't see how they could possibly enjoy dining with other people at all.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

yea cuz isnt that a form of OCD?









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> A lot of these "rules" date back to before anybody had a clue what germs even were, so I don't think it would be about that. But, seriously, if someone is going to think about another diner's saliva, germs, etc. being on that diner's own roll, I can't see how they could possibly enjoy dining with other people at all.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Alright here's this about tearing your bread:

http://www.chow.com/food-news/54040/butter-me-up/

Quote:


> The rule is meant to make sure you don't look greedy. As Starr explains, "It's for the same reason you shouldn't gulp an entire glass of water or wine." Roger Rice, restaurant manager at New York's 21 Club, says: "If you butter your bread all at once, it's like you're making a sandwich. Bread is supposed to be an accompaniment to your meal."
> 
> On a practical level, taking a bite out of a larger piece of bread can be messy: You could send baguette crumbs flying. If it's rustic peasant bread, you might need to gnaw at it.


Yeah, but if it's rustic peasant bread you'll get dusty flour on your hands. And I imagine tearing some kinds of breads would just send crumbs scattering.

This is where dh and I will celebrate our wedding anniversary day after tomorrow! http://www.biba-restaurant.com/ I'll be thinking of this thread.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Doraline Kae*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does "punked" mean?


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Oh, I get that. I avoid situations where it matters like the plague. I'm just surprised that people actually find dining out by these "rules" to be an enjoyable experience, is all. Styles differ. If I do find myself in such a situation, I'll be very grateful when it's over.


That's actually one of the reasons I do practice it with my kids (and have with kids where I was standing in loco parentis). The bread rule, where and how you put your napkin down, etc. don't bother me at all just 'cause I've done it long enough that the 'proper' way doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the meal.

I worked where I attended formal Chinese meals a few times and that never quite got comfortable; I'm not great with chopsticks and the slurping was something that was hard to get ok with. And I was struggling with some of the food, anyway.

Personally I don't care about the rules as rules. But I grew up where my parents only gave basic instruction, and then ended up in situations where I felt unprepared. A restaurant though has only rarely been where I've felt it; it's mostly been at sort of family events, or business ones.


----------



## Doraline Kae (Aug 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> What does "punked" mean?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=punked


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> That's actually one of the reasons I do practice it with my kids (and have with kids where I was standing in loco parentis). The bread rule, where and how you put your napkin down, etc. don't bother me at all just 'cause I've done it long enough that the 'proper' way doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the meal.
> 
> ...


ETA: To put this in the proper family perspective....my sister was still arguing about using forks, instead of fingers, at about age 10 or 11. Her reasoning? "Fingers taste better than forks." We just seem to be naturally...contrary. (I have to admit - she has a point. There's no rational reason for forks, in many cases. I've been known to ditch them, myself.)


----------



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

This thread is a little scary.

I used to have a pretty good bead on what was acceptable at restaurants. My rules were specific to my DD and her personality. DD needed to stay in her seat or her half of the booth. No bouncing in a booth if the booth is attached to another. No tipping chairs. No yelling, screaming, or freaking out. Of course, a corollary to that rule was for us, don't take DD to a restaurant when she is tiered, cranky, or super hungry and likely to yell, scream, or freak out. Keep your food on your plate, don't make a huge mess. Use your silverware. Use your napkin. Use an inside voice. Don't talk about other people in the restaurant (at least until we are in the car.) You don't have to eat it if you don't like it. You can have something after we leave. Another corollary to the rule for us was to be sure to have crackers, pretzels or something in the diaper bag and/or be sure to order at least one thing that you know the kids will eat no matter what (hello french fries!) Please and thank you are encouraged. No bubbles through the straw. Don't touch every piece of bread in the basket.

I think you get the idea.

I do not worry about which fork to use, or how to eat soup, or what Mrs. Picky McPicky 4 tables over is thinking about my kids manners. If someone is offended that my kid put butter on the whole individual sized dinner roll, I really don't care.

Now that I have DS things are a little more complicated. He has Down syndrome. He is a pretty quite kid, but if he's excited, like when the server puts a plate of spaghetti in front of him, he might just let out a very loud squeal of delight. Sometimes it's just easier for him to use his hands after a few bites with a fork. When he's done, he's done and sitting in his seat gets hard so one of us ends up taking him for a walk. Chances are his shoes will end up on the floor at some point during the meal. He's been known to fast as lightning, crumple up his dinner roll, making a bit of a contained mess. I always wonder how all of these etiquette rules apply to him. Should he never be allowed in a restaurant because he might talk with his mouth full? None of these things are to big of an issue at the moment, he's only 3, but what if he's 6, or 9, or 12? I'm sure there of plenty of people that don't want to see anybody with Ds in public at all. Should I worry about offending these folks?

Of course, my kids, even at 3, even with special needs, would never be allowed to jump around in a booth, smearing BBQ sauce all over it and intruding into another table's experience. If for no other reason than safety, they will never be allowed to run around a restaurant, crowded or not. While they are little and sometimes loud, we don't go to quite, intimate restaurants.

I am grateful that I live near the beach, in a very touristy area where there are plenty of nice, fancy food, but casual atmosphere, family restaurants. No matter what night of the week we go out to dinner, there are sure to be adults attracting much more attention and being way more inappropriate than my kids.

For the record, I would never bring my little kids to The French Laundry or other restaurant of this caliber, because that type of experience deserves to be enjoyed. I'm not really enjoying myself if in between every bite I'm keeping on top of the kids and their needs. Plus I'm pretty sure every entree does not have the option of fries as a side dish and I bet there isn't a bottle of ketchup within 100 yards of that place.


----------



## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
> 
> This thread is a little scary.
> 
> ...


We recently ate in a restaurant where an adult woman was seated at the next table was not capable of sitting still. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say she had Tourette's syndrome. It was a bit distracting and slightly uncomfortable, because she was bumping the seat. I could tell my kids were curious, but they didn't stare. When one of the woman's tics caught DD's attention, they exchanged a smile/wave. Other than that it was pretty much like any other meal we've had out. Being accommodating or at the very least tolerant of other people's varying ability levels is part of having good manners. It seems like you've found a good balance between teaching manners and not having the meal turn into a chore for everyone at the table. Anyone who has a problem dining near your son should learn to mind their own manners before critiquing his!


----------



## Stephenie (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
> 
> This thread is a little scary.
> 
> ...


Having a special needs kiddo myself, I found myself nodding along to much of what you wrote.

We don't eat out much. Our food budget is small, if we eat out it's because we're traveling, just moved (like right now!) or some other event. We try to keep the kids in their seats. We try to keep them quiet. I bring toys to keep them occupied. But my son, having an autism spectrum disorder, often lets out loud, infant like squeals. He hops up and down as we walk to our seats. He flaps his hands with excitement every few minutes. If it's loud he covers his ears and cries (I hope every time we go out that is is not someone's birthday near us!) I do everything I can, but sometimes something slips out because he's four and he's special. Children are part of society. People with disabilities are part of society. They deserve to eat, too, and sometimes, it happens in restaurants. We don't go anywhere that serves expensive meals. I could not afford it if I wanted to (and trust me, my family works very, very hard ) but if by some odd chance we ended up in a place where you were expected to use a certain fork at a certain time, I'd just be happy if he used it and wasn't licking the table. That's life. I could totally see my son acting like that little boy the OP described. He has no understanding of personal space. I would step in, but he does not get it. I'd probably trade him places or something so he would hopefully be distracted, but I may watch it for a minute to see where it was going at first. There's a hard balance in teaching him social norms and not crushing his self esteem. so I like to try and watch the person's reaction before I decide how to proceed with him. Some people don't seem to mind indulging his odd behaviors for a few minutes, so I let it go, others are obviously bothered and I work at redirection faster.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

And I love it when kids lean over the back of a booth or peek out and smile at me. Just so long as they don't do it for more than 10 minutes. I looooove playing peekabo with a happy baby/kid. Although some people here would see that as rude probably.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

the reason for the bread rule is so that you do not have to get your lips greasy before you touch them to the wine glass. (or water glass if that's how you roll) by buttering only what you can pop into your mouth you avoid that scenario.

fancy people really get repulsed by finger and lip prints on the glass and floating oil on the wines, apparently, throughout history, or at least where butter and bread and wines coexist.

do i get a prize? i thinks somebody needs to take me and the cracker throwing toddler to dinners. somewhere fancy.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Cracker Barrel, HERE WE COME!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> the reason for the bread rule is so that you do not have to get your lips greasy before you touch them to the wine glass. (or water glass if that's how you roll) by buttering only what you can pop into your mouth you avoid that scenario.
> 
> ...


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Wait, how am I bitter? B/c I called her hon? Dude, I called the cashier at Wal-Mart hon the other day. It's reflex. But if velochic wants to think I'm bitter, well bless her little heart.
> 
> And bread at fancy restaurants just seems like too much trouble. I am weirdly fixated on bread today b/c I am craving carbs and we're out of bread at home (where I butter the entire slice and bite it).


Actually, I was thinking you are bitter because you seem to want to discredit me by making up lies about things I've said on other threads. If you so hate the idea of going beyond manners and conducting oneself with rules of etiquette, then just don't respond to the thread. You don't have to try to belittle me, call me names or misquote me. Literally the *ONLY* tie this subject had to wealth is that some rules of etiquette are usually only seen in restaurants that are astronomical in price. Not once did I say we dine in them regularly. And yeah, $100 is easy throw down for a meal for 4 people (all who eat adult entrees) and those places are casual and from being tied to wealth that it makes me want to LOL. Yet you seem to want to put me down... and I can only assume that is to make yourself feel better. I have tried very hard to be polite in this thread, even when called names. In a moment of anger, I write something I shouldn't have, you and your cronies pounce on it like a cat. And I had immediately edited it out. People like yourself who have to criticize to make yourself feel better seem bitter to me. So, don't use the rules of etiquette that I wanted to discuss. But you don't have to insult me because I care about them.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Practical joke involving getting someone all worked up and then saying SYYYYYYKE!!!!!!!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> What does "punked" mean?


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Practical joke involving getting someone all worked up and then saying SYYYYYYKE!!!!!!!!!


Well, that doesn't make sense. Especially as coming from a brand new member speaking about someone who has been here for 10 years. I guess it was meant to be trouble-making and stir things up. Got it.

For others, I appreciate some of the more pleasant discussion. It really was something I was thinking about and wondering about and I appreciated the honest and polite replies. I now see that we are wealthy freaks (







) because we're an older, hard-working, established couple who was raised with impeccable table manners (and that because we're not both American and are trying to raise dd multiculturaly, we're doing her a disservice), can afford to occasionally eat at upscale restaurants (because it's one of our only forms of entertainment as a family), and avoid processed freeze-n-fry foods at chain restaurants... and that we will be scorned and made fun of as we break our bread into pieces and place our napkins on our laps. I'm good with that. I'd rather be different than to be mainstream. Got my answer and I am... outta here.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Wait. My immense love for Applebees and Cracker barrel makes me a sheeple? WOW! Now whose bitter?


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Wait. My immense love for Applebees and Cracker barrel makes me a sheeple? WOW! Now whose bitter?


No, I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. (And the comment was particularly not address to you, it was just that I was responding to your answer about what "punked" meant.) I was talking about the general consensus that we are not going with the flow because, unlike the majority we are teaching dd archaic and useless rules or etiquette. I will edit it out as it's meant as "mainstream" and I don't want to be misunderstood. Thanks for pointing this out.

(FTR - We like Cracker Barrel, too and as a matter of fact, dd and my mom ate there last night. They have fresh food. Applebee's, unfortunately, I can't agree on that one as the food is too processed for our personal tastes, but to each his own. My dad loves Applebee's and when we get together, he often picks it... as I've said elsewhere, "company trumps cuisine" and I'd eat just about anything to spend precious few moments with my dad.)


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

This is just getting downright comedic, now. I know you werent calling ME sheeple. Just people LIKE me.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> No, I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. (And the comment was particularly not address to you, it was just that I was responding to your answer about what "punked" meant.) I was talking about the general consensus that we are not going with the flow because, unlike the majority we are teaching dd archaic and useless rules or etiquette. I will edit it out as it's meant as "mainstream".


Ive also never considered my palate to be "mainstream", but I suppose my pocketbook is. I love Brie. Does that count as NON maindstream?


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Actually, I was thinking you are bitter because you seem to want to discredit me by making up lies about things I've said on other threads. If you so hate the idea of going beyond manners and conducting oneself with rules of etiquette, then just don't respond to the thread. You don't have to try to belittle me, call me names or misquote me. Literally the *ONLY* tie this subject had to wealth is that some rules of etiquette are usually only seen in restaurants that are astronomical in price. Not once did I say we dine in them regularly. And yeah, $100 is easy throw down for a meal for 4 people (all who eat adult entrees) and those places are casual and from being tied to wealth that it makes me want to LOL. Yet you seem to want to put me down... and I can only assume that is to make yourself feel better. I have tried very hard to be polite in this thread, even when called names. In a moment of anger, I write something I shouldn't have, you and your cronies pounce on it like a cat. And I had immediately edited it out. People like yourself who have to criticize to make yourself feel better seem bitter to me. So, don't use the rules of etiquette that I wanted to discuss. But you don't have to insult me because I care about them.


It seems that there has been a ton of miscommunication about this. I cant find anywhere where Honey says that you posted in that thread. She was only saying that if you wanted to have a big argument about how you "worked really hard for your money" to have it on the thread that is specifically devoted to that issue, and not to turn yet another thread into a class war.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

DING DING DING, WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> It seems that there has been a ton of miscommunication about this. I cant find anywhere where Honey says that you posted in that thread. She was only saying that if you wanted to have a big argument about how you "worked really hard for your money" to have it on the thread that is specifically devoted to that issue, and not to turn yet another thread into a class war.


Woops, I mean roasted duck.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Actually, I was thinking you are bitter because you seem to want to discredit me by making up lies about things I've said on other threads. If you so hate the idea of going beyond manners and conducting oneself with rules of etiquette, then just don't respond to the thread. You don't have to try to belittle me, call me names or misquote me. Literally the *ONLY* tie this subject had to wealth is that some rules of etiquette are usually only seen in restaurants that are astronomical in price. Not once did I say we dine in them regularly. And yeah, $100 is easy throw down for a meal for 4 people (all who eat adult entrees) and those places are casual and from being tied to wealth that it makes me want to LOL. Yet you seem to want to put me down... and I can only assume that is to make yourself feel better. I have tried very hard to be polite in this thread, even when called names. In a moment of anger, I write something I shouldn't have, you and your cronies pounce on it like a cat. And I had immediately edited it out. *People like yourself who have to criticize to make yourself feel better seem bitter to me.* So, don't use the rules of etiquette that I wanted to discuss. But you don't have to insult me because I care about them.


Pot meet kettle?

Gently, I think you are missing the point. I don't think 95% of the posts have been against learning or using proper manners when dining. However, the idea that if you don't use proper dining etiquette you are somehow ... um ... not worthy of nicer places or you haven't worked hard enough to deserve it? Or that only certain restaurants deserve nice manners? Yeah, those are the things that are a little off putting and frankly, sound elitist.

I care about manners and etiquette and my son is learning about it as he's interested and exposed to different situations. He's shown an interest in helping me set up for dinner parties a few times and has learned about different forks and such. But to assume he doesn't need to use his napkin properly because he is only dining at Outback? That is the attitude that is insulting.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Closing for review.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Doraline Kae - Your account has been closed. You carry the same IP address as a member who was banned for trolling discussions.

Anirbas - "you are a snob" is namecalling. You are being issued a warning.

coffeegirl, ChristyMarie, TheGirls, seawind - If you would like to post to this thread your posts should be about the general topic of dining etiquette and the parent's responsibility for a child's behavior in a restaurant setting. Please stop focusing your posts on insulting velochic, picking apart her posts to create drama arguments, and/or criticizing her dining choices and spending.

velochic, I realize that some posts in this thread are attacking and making implications against you. But you are equally held to our UA and must post respectfully.

We have a very diverse community with members of tremendously great and tremendously minimal income, and many others somewhere in between the two. What one family spends on a month of groceries is what another may spend dining out a few times or even once a month. Everyone has diffferent priorities and they make room in their spending for things that are important to them. Avoid making statements that belittle or shame anyone's choices.

I am reopening this thread for discussion. Please be sure to post VERY respectfully and in discussion of the general topic and not about individual members and their choices. Those who continue to post to make personal accusations and untoward statements will be warned and may have their posting privileges suspended.


----------



## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

CM, please do let me know what you found so inflammatory in my post? that observation about etiquette is tongue-in-cheek but with a definite element of truth. in a world where for so many starvation is a painful reality, some of these rules seem absurd and of serving no value other than to place people on a pecking order. i make a definite distinction between manners and etiquette. that distinction is based on the difference they make to the functioning of society as a whole.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I didn't read the last few pages of posts, so forgive me if this has already been said.

Those who make a big fuss about eating "properly" and dining etiquette who simultaneously claim to not judge those who don't....well, I don't understand. Isn't the entire point of the propriety simply a matter of appearances? Really....if MY wine glass has greasy fingerprints on it, why should anyone else care?

If you fuss with knife and fork at Taco Bell, spread your paper napkin in your lap, what is the purpose of all of that? Is it simply to separate oneself from the "Great Unwashed"?

I'm not saying that anyone should eat like a caveman or wipe their faces on their sleeves. I just think that most fine dining etiquette is little more than a show. If someone is appalled that another person spooned their soup in the wrong direction....well, that says more about the appalled person than it does about the soup-eater. If the purpose of spooning your soup away is so that it doesn't splash on you, then really....the only person who should be concerned with it is the person eating the soup.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I am now a little worried because I put my napkin on my lap no matter where I am because that's what I'm used to and it's most comfortable for me. I always know where it is! I hope people don't think I'm separating myself from anyone, because really it's just that I like having my napkin there.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Those who make a big fuss about eating "properly" and dining etiquette who simultaneously claim to not judge those who don't....well, I don't understand. Isn't the entire point of the propriety simply a matter of appearances? Really....if MY wine glass has greasy fingerprints on it, why should anyone else care?
> 
> ...


You may think it's little more than show, but I don't. It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not. And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging. It's a question. The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion. If you don't teach it, then just say so. You don't have to qualify it. Nor should I have to qualify why I *do* teach it. Nobody said they were appalled that another spooned their soup in the wrong direction or even that they are observing whether one does it or not. The question was whether or not these finer points of etiquette (that are not used very often) are taught to children today. That's it. Nothing more.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I am now a little worried because I put my napkin on my lap no matter where I am because that's what I'm used to and it's most comfortable for me. I always know where it is! I hope people don't think I'm separating myself from anyone, because really it's just that I like having my napkin there.


Those scrawny paper napkins at fast food places and such would just blow off my lap. I simply can't imagine they would be very effective in your lap, that's all. I do put linen napkins in my lap when I eat somewhere that uses them.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> You may think it's little more than show, but I don't. It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not. And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging. It's a question. The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion. If you don't teach it, then just say so. You don't have to qualify it. Nor should I have to qualify why I *do* teach it. Nobody said they were appalled that another spooned their soup in the wrong direction or even that they are observing whether one does it or not. The question was whether or not these finer points of etiquette (that are not used very often) are taught to children today. That's it. Nothing more.


I never said you have to qualify it. I'm simply asking what the purpose is of dining etiquette, and why do you think it's important to teach it? You mentioned earlier that you have to know these things in certain situations. Is it because in certain situations, people are judging? Watching? Observing and sizing you up?

This isn't an attack. This is asking you to consider WHY it's important to know where to place your napkin when leaving the table, or which fork to use for creme brulee. If it isn't some sort of classism, I'd like to know *what* it is.

Neither I nor my children have EVER been in a situation where those things are important, so no, they haven't been taught those "finer points" of etiquette. We jes' common folk. Personally, I don't think it takes a lifetime to learn those things if it becomes necessary to know them. I guess my kids will be smart enough to view a tutorial if they are ever invited to the White House.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I put two napkins in my lap at fast food places. I don't know where I'd put a napkin if it weren't in my lap. It is so automatic for me that it would feel very awkward to put it anywhere else. Hmm I probably scoop soup away from me too, because that's how I've always done it and I don't actually think about it. And break the bread into little bits and eat a bit at a time buttering each bit before I eat it. I guess I do all of this, and the kids do copy me, but I don't notice how other people do it. I would never judge other people over something so (IMO) silly as how you break bread, and I hope other people wouldn't judge me either.

I think this was a big deal for my mom, and that's probably why I do it how I do it. It is not a big deal for me, and I don't think about it as I eat.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> You may think it's little more than show, but I don't. It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not. And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging. It's a question. The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion.


I suspect one of the reasons it got blown out or proportion is that basic courtesy for others (eg. not smearing BBQ sauce all over the seats!) was conflated with fine dining etiquette, right from the first post. I didn't really take it that way, but I could easily see your first post being read as though people who don't teach their kids to spoon soup away from themselves, "properly" place their napkin, etc. are on the same level as those who don't teach their children to keep their voices down, leave other diners in peace, etc.

Veering a little...the napkin thing has always kind of bugged me. I'm a DD/DDD cup. I think I've spilled food on my pants about 2-3 times in my entire adult life, including barbecues and such. I used to spill food on my shirt about every other meal. If I tucked my napkin into the top of my shirt/blouse/dress/whatever, people would think I was a barbarian, but putting it on my lap, where I'd be protecting precisely nothing is "proper". It makes no sense to me. That said...my napkin stays beside my plate, unless I need it. I see it as a tool, not a prop.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I do tend to put my napkin in my lap, b/c it's a handy place for me, and it eliminates the chance of wiping something on my pants.

I don't, however, insist that my kids do so (though I guess it was drilled into me as a kid). But if we are somewhere with cloth napkins, I might encourage and model it. The kids then might for part of the meal, and that's perfectly fine with me... as long as it doesn't end up on the floor.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> You may think it's little more than show, but I don't. It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not. And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging. It's a question. The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion.* If you don't teach it, then just say so. You don't have to qualify it. Nor should I have to qualify why I *do* teach it. * Nobody said they were appalled that another spooned their soup in the wrong direction or even that they are observing whether one does it or not. The question was whether or not these finer points of etiquette (that are not used very often) are taught to children today. That's it. Nothing more.


When I just want yes or no answers without people bothering to share their opinion about WHY they feel the way they do, I just create a poll. Click yes or no. No response needed. Your OP and several posts afterwards didnt communicate that you were not interested in hearing other people's opinions about this issue.


----------



## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Veering a little...the napkin thing has always kind of bugged me. I'm a DD/DDD cup. I think I've spilled food on my pants about 2-3 times in my entire adult life, including barbecues and such. I used to spill food on my shirt about every other meal. If I tucked my napkin into the top of my shirt/blouse/dress/whatever, people would think I was a barbarian, but putting it on my lap, where I'd be protecting precisely nothing is "proper". It makes no sense to me. That said...my napkin stays beside my plate, unless I need it. I see it as a tool, not a prop.


Now, I do keep my napkin in my lap, but I am MUCH more likely to actually make good use of it if it had been tucked into my shirt collar. The built in crumbcatchers lead me to fear wearing a white shirt out to a meal... Hmmmmm... I am seemingly incapable of not spilling something on my shirt, even if I do spoon my soup away from myself.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> Now, I do keep my napkin in my lap, but I am MUCH more likely to actually make good use of it if it had been tucked into my shirt collar. The built in crumbcatchers lead me to fear wearing a white shirt out to a meal... Hmmmmm... I am seemingly incapable of not spilling something on my shirt, even if I do spoon my soup away from myself.


I don't wear white to a meal. I actually try for some kind of pattern on top, because patterns tend to show stains less vividly than solid colours do.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Well, that doesn't make sense. Especially as coming from a brand new member speaking about someone who has been here for 10 years. I guess it was meant to be trouble-making and stir things up. Got it.
> 
> ...


I didn't see any posts referring to prejudice against your nationality or the ones that talked about making fun of you as you use your napkin, were they the ones that were deleted or are you being melodramatic because you feel like you are being attacked for expecting different manners than other people? I think the thread was doing wonderfully until you started attacking people for their manners and telling them they wouldn't be welcome at the places you eat at. Then it started going downhill fast.

I hope another thread opens, after the anger surrounding this one has died out, about actual manners and the use of them without turning into a class war, a fight about who has better manners, or one man show aimed at pushing one set way of being down other people's throats. The different ideas presented in this thread about manners has been very interesting, especially the idea that using a napkin instead of clothes is laughable.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I am still trying to wrap my head around the soup thing... If you spoon the soup away from you, wouldn't it make it more likely that you'd splash other people (or their food)????

Anyway, no, I don't teach my DS the 'finer points of etiquette' because it's just something so outside the realm of my life experience... I can't imagine being anywhere where etiquette would matter. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out how to get my 2.5yo to keep his food on the table. If he masters that, I'll be pretty happy, there isn't much else I'd care to teach him. I don't believe in not eating with your hands, or chewing with your mouth closed, or keeping your elbows off the table... so anything beyond that just isn't important to me either.


----------



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I am still trying to wrap my head around the soup thing... If you spoon the soup away from you, wouldn't it make it more likely that you'd splash other people (or their food)????
> 
> Anyway, no, I don't teach my DS the 'finer points of etiquette' because it's just something so outside the realm of my life experience... I can't imagine being anywhere where etiquette would matter. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out how to get my 2.5yo to keep his food on the table. If he masters that, I'll be pretty happy, there isn't much else I'd care to teach him. I don't believe in not eating with your hands, or chewing with your mouth closed, or keeping your elbows off the table... so anything beyond that just isn't important to me either.


It is actually quite simple but probably hard to visualize. First, hold the spoon so it is parallel to you/the edge of the table. Slightly dip the furthest edge of the spoon into the soup. Lift it up and pause so any drips can fall off. Your spoon will not be full, about half or so. You then, keeping the spoon parallel, sip delicately from the side of the spoon, not from the tip.

I know, sounds crazy but is actually very simple to do.

So far my son knows what a soup spoon is but he really doesn't like soup (!??!?!?!?) yet so this is a non issue for us as far as the teaching of manners.


----------



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> the reason for the bread rule is so that you do not have to get your lips greasy before you touch them to the wine glass. (or water glass if that's how you roll) by buttering only what you can pop into your mouth you avoid that scenario.
> 
> ...


Isn't the greesy lips issue the reason we have napkins?


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
> 
> Isn't the greesy lips issue the reason we have napkins?


Apparently not. The napkin is to catch the food you drop in your lap. Or the napkin just sits there and looks pretty if your food drops in your cleavage.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Apparently not. The napkin is to catch the food you drop in your lap. Or the napkin just sits there and looks pretty if your food drops *in your cleavage*.


Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...


----------



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

All this talk of napkin use is giving me a very uncomfortable flashback to a summer with my grandparents when I was 7 years old.

As the high light of my visit that summer, my grandparents bought tickets to a Broadway musical and took my sister and I out to a "fancy" restaurant. All I remember of the "fancy" was that it was a place that had white table clothes and everyone was dressed up. I have no memory of the meal, and knowing my grandparents I'm sure my sister and I had to order something from the kiddy menu, if there was one.

For the 2 weeks leading up to this night on the town my grandparents drilled us on proper etiquette. They would say #1, #2, #3 and that was code for some thing we were suppose to do. #1 was put your napkin on your lap. I don't remember #2 and #3. Even at 7 years old, I was MORTIFIED that my grandparents felt that I did not know to do this, that they assumed my parents did not teach it to us, and that they had to give me a code to make me do it in public. What was wrong with whispering a reminder if it was necessary?

I told my mother about all this and it became a bit of a family joke. To this day saying #1 in the right moment will crack us all up.

FWIW, when eating some place casual with paper napkins, I solve the fly away problem by tucking the napkin under my thigh. I'm pretty sure that's not classy, but it's better than loosing a napkin every few minutes. Micky D's napkins and Taco bell napkins are always still in the bag, or crumpled up after being used and stuffed into an empty fry box or something like that, we rarely eat in at fast food places.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really *low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops..*.


This is what I do, and then DD has a treat for later when she's nursing


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...


Oh, yeah....my mom's been doing that for years! The crumbs aren't comfy, from what I gather, but hey....you have to pay a price for beauty!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
> 
> FWIW, when eating some place casual with paper napkins, I solve the fly away problem by tucking the napkin under my thigh. I'm pretty sure that's not classy, but it's better than loosing a napkin every few minutes.


Meh. I keep paper napkins on the table and just make sure the food goes in my mouth. Nine times out of 10, I'm wearing jeans, anyway. It all comes out in the wash.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> For goodness sake, I have posted something in haste or anger, realised my error, and edited it out. That is a polite and kind thing to do.
> 
> I honestly do not understand why everyone is so up in arms. Was it an error to make a post with ties to wealth, etiquette and manners in the same thread? Probably. Is it worth the mean spiritedness shown on this thread? I do not think so.


How is it mean-spirited to respond to someone's posts with our own opinions? Especially if OTHER people (OP included) are actually getting up in arms about it. I thought this was a discussion board. We were discussing the topic and the things that the OP has said. But....whatever.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Those scrawny paper napkins at fast food places and such would just blow off my lap. I simply can't imagine they would be very effective in your lap, that's all. I do put linen napkins in my lap when I eat somewhere that uses them.
> 
> ...


LOL. I would insert the laughing smiley but I'm lazy and on my phone. ITA with all of the above. I've never thought to spoon my soup away from myself, it seems counter productive if you ask me. Is it rude if you tip the bowl up into the air so you get every drop?


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Also, as far as my children...if I can keep them seated it's a MIRACLE.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> LOL. I would insert the laughing smiley but I'm lazy and on my phone. ITA with all of the above. I've never thought to spoon my soup away from myself, it seems counter productive if you ask me. Is it rude if you tip the bowl up into the air so you get every drop?


I think that depends... are you talking about tipping the bowl on the table to pool the soup in the corner so you can pick it up with the spoon, or lifting the bowl to your lips and tipping it to drink from it like a cup?


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...


I've done that- accidentally. Sadly, my bras cost more than my shirts. I can't decide which to sacrifice.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> I've done that- accidentally. Sadly, my bras cost more than my shirts. I can't decide which to sacrifice.


My bras cost more than my shirts, too...but I can still wear a bra if it has some stains. That's not always true of a shirt.


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