# advice needed, and please no flaming.



## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

so i have been using the "naughty chair" when dd does something she is not supposed to do. this is what usually happens: she does X. i ask her in a calm manner to not do X. she does X again. i ask her again. repeat once or twice more. the last time, i tell her that the next time she does it she will go to the naughty chair because she is not listening to me. well what do you know... she does X again...







: and i escort her to the naughty chair and explain to her that she is sitting there because she cannot behave appropriately. i have her sit there for 5 minutes. she is still in the same room as us, just sitting in the corner on her chair. sometimes it gets ugly... i am not so calm and instead screaming.







:

dh is very AP, except he is lost in the GD department and seems to like the naughty chair... our daughter is very spirited and extremely challenging (has been spirited since birth).... thankgoodness our second daughter has a very calm happy-go-lucky manner.

anyway, he comes from a spanking household (belt and all) and doesn't want to hit dd (even though we HAVE spanked her a few times out of frustration and boy we are not proud of that.. we are usually reduced to tears afterwards). he thinks that the naughty chair is a good compromise as there is no spanking involved or screaming at her, just letting her know that when she "acts up" after repeated askings not to, this is the consequence - she is removed from the scene.

i admit, i like it and i don't. i don't because i don't want to give dd the impression that she is not welcome if she misbehaves... but at the same time, i don't want her to know that she can fully ignore me when i ask her to stop certain things (like flinging the knife around when i turn my back) and "get away with it". i don't know what to do. she does not respond to GD.. i've tried reasoning, distracting... it just doesn't work. she wants what she wants... i ask her to stop... i might as well be talking to the walls. i don't have high expectations.. i will usually repeat myself a good 7-8 times before i escort her to the naughty chair. she just laughs in my face. she will be 3 in september.. she has done a few things that i never want to risk a repeat of, like running out onto the road where cars are zooming past... she was so *incredibly* lucky that day to not have had cars in the lane she ran to as there are almost always cars speeding down that lane. if there were cars in that lane, she would of died instantly upon impact. i was 9 months pregnant at that time, could only run after her so fast (i ran so fast though, that dd2 'dropped' within that minute and i had her 36 hours later). she ran onto the road recently again but this time we were at the shops. she is quite a fast runner and you can't tell when she is going to just bolt. this really scares me, and she won't hold my hand without a zillion HUGE 'stop murdering me' style tantrums and i can't put the harness strap over her either.. she won't have it. so yeah, that is just one example of her "misbehaving".

i want to stop the naughty chair but i don't know what to replace it with. sadly though, the naughty chair seems to work most of the time as she doesn't like to be removed from what she is doing. sometimes she even gets her chair to put it in the naughty spot, when i tell her that she will be sitting there soon if she doesn't listen. she even walks there herself and sets up the chair. what kid volunteers to go in the naughty chair?????







:

she also watches quite a bit of TV (dvd's only) which i HATE. it's winter here and freeeezing and i don't drive and there is no where to go. so we spend all day at home... i know she is bored to death.. she doesn't play with toys which makes it worse... she just loves to do whatever i'm doing and most of the time i am not doing anything but nursing the baby or putting her to sleep or trying to make something to eat, changing a diaper etc etc (i also have a 6 month old).

i feel so bad about all of this. every night when dh and i lay down next to her to put her to sleep we often kiss her sleeping face and say "i'm sorry - i'm sorry for not having enough patience today/screaming at you - you don't deserve this." we don't know what to do with her. i know almost every kid is challenging but believe me when i say she is very challenging... i was glad when 2 other adults who work with kids (one nanny, one in child therapy) confirmed what i thought. they both told me she is alot more challenging then the average kid but that she is also very bright and extremely curious... maybe this has to do with her being more challenging then most? she is also verrrrrry sensitive... you have to watch what you say when you talk to her... i only seem to know how to talk to her appropriately... whenever anyone else asks her not to do something, she almost immediately gets angry and upset and has a "silent tantrum" where she wont talk to anyone for a long time.









please give me advice/perspective/anything you've got (unless it's flaming - i don't need that)... willing to try anything... just want her to listen a bit and for me to not lose it and start screaming when she has ignored what i've said for the 1000th time that day.

i hate screaming at her. she is such a beautiful little person, she deserves better than that.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Is this the child in your signature who is not yet 3? If so, I'd say asking her not to do something and expecting her to listen is setting your expectations way too high.

"Get Off Your Butt Parenting" is the way to go at that age (and for years to come), IME. If she's doing something you would like her not to, go over to her, get close to her, and help her to behave the way you would like her to. Explain to her gently what you need from her. "Stop" and "don't" are a lot less effective than "please" and "I need."

Engaging with her this way will probably also help you to not scream at her. The closer you are, the more connected you are.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Is this the child in your signature who is not yet 3? If so, I'd say asking her not to do something and expecting her to listen is setting your expectations way too high.

"Get Off Your Butt Parenting" is the way to go at that age (and for years to come), IME. If she's doing something you would like her not to, go over to her, get close to her, and help her to behave the way you would like her to. Explain to her gently what you need from her. "Stop" and "don't" are a lot less effective than "please" and "I need."

Engaging with her this way will probably also help you to not scream at her. The closer you are, the more connected you are.

I absolutely agree. Your DD is way too young to be using punishment. I mean, as soon as you said you repeat and repeat yourself and she does it anyway, I was like "She must be a 2 or 3 year old." Believe me there is nothing wrong with her she is NORMAL, you just have to change your perspective to accept that she is showing age appropriate behavior. I wish I had a good book recomendation that would explain this better than I can! Seriously your expectations ARE too high. And your DD is probably not a challenging child but is just being labeled that way by non-AP care givers. She sounds normal to me. At that age you can't just say "stop stop stop" it IS like talking to a wall. You have to get engaged, redirect, be involved not just demand that she obey you. She is too young.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Is this the child in your signature who is not yet 3? If so, I'd say asking her not to do something and expecting her to listen is setting your expectations way too high.









:

You are just expecting too much from one that young. It's your job to keep her safe, not expect her to keep herself safe.

-Angela


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

It is good you are open to thinking about and trying new things. It can get much better than it is right now and you do have the power to make changes.

A few things occurred to me when I was reading your post.

1. I would suggest that you read more about child development and be realistic about what you can expect from a child this age. This article may be one place to start: http://www.positivediscipline.com/articles/no.html It does sound to me from your post like you are expecting way too much for her age and expecting her to reason, remember and control impulses in ways that aren't realistic for her age.

2. I'd separate safety from discipline for this age. There is no discipline that can make a two or three year old safe around the road. They don't get it. You could spank, yell, threaten, beg, reward...etc. but it wouldn't make them safe because they are simply too young to really get it. You have to take what means necessary - carrying the child, using a stroller, etc. to insure safety instead of relying the child's ability to reason or desire to comply. Even with the very easiest most compliant kid ever that wouldn't really be a safe guarantee. Same goes for the knives and other concerns.

3. As far as what kid volunteers to go to the chair...Well, maybe a kid who recignizes they need to take a break. Learning to take a break is a crucial life skill. That's what bugs me about making a punishment for being "naughty". I think it is perfectly fine to teach that when you are overwhelmed you learn to take a break. And, I'd think about finding ways to teach that without making taking a break into a form of punishment.

4. Routine and structure go really far at this age for most kids. What can you build into her day that she can expect? Yes, you've got a little one, but it should still be possible to take a daily walk, go to the park, read to her while you are nursing the baby, play and give her attention, include her into your world - she can wash lettuce, help set the table, etc.


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## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Hi Mama, Im sure the GD activists here will flame me, oh well. Here's what I think.

mamamelia wrote: (sorry dont know how to do that quote thingy & no time to look it up)
_....i don't want to give dd the impression that she is not welcome if she misbehaves..._
To this I say - why not? Her behaivior is unwelcome. When did not tolerating bad behaivior become the same as not loving? In using her time out chair - arent you trying to teach her what is appropriate so that she can be with you, peacefully, more often?

_i will usually repeat myself a good 7-8 times before i escort her to the naughty chair. she just laughs in my face._
You and your DH have to decide what is and is not allowed in your home. Not me or anyone else on this board. Once you decide what those things are that's it. No wonder she laughs, she can't take you seriously right now.

_sadly though, the naughty chair seems to work most of the time as she doesn't like to be removed from what she is doing._
Again - why? why is it sad that you have found something that communicates to her that bad behaivior is not allowed? I am going on the assumption that discipline aside you give her a secure, loving, stable environment. She knows you love her, time outs or no time outs. She cant stay within your house forever. She has to interact with others. People expect things from each other, fact of life, one main thing we expect is considerate behaivior. Dont set her up to be the brat no one can stand.

_she also watches quite a bit of TV (dvd's only) which i HATE. it's winter here and freeeezing and i don't drive and there is no where to go_
Forgive yourself. I know what it is like to have a child who needs A LOT of interaction/stimulation to be 100% happy. And I also know what it's like when that just isnt possible. You have a nursing baby and freezing weather. No child ever had a perfect childhood but love covers a multitude of sins. This is where you use common sense and maybe relax on the number of absolute rules you have. Im in opposite shoes - its too hot and too many mosquitos right now. He is used to at least 1 hr of outdoor play in the AM. I just cant do it now. So we watch more TV, we bake more cookies, and make more messes. My baby is older so she doesnt demand as much non stop attention anymore. But my sympathy to his boredom aside he still cant throw things at the TV or hit the dog.

_whenever anyone else asks her not to do something, she almost immediately gets angry and upset and has a "silent tantrum" where she wont talk to anyone for a long time._
No one likes being told to stop something they like. Me included. Be grateful that her tantrums are silent. As she grows her vocabulary will too and you can talk more about what's upset her. My sons 3rd favorite thing to say right now is "Im very upset with you", "I love you" is 1st and "Oh, you make me soooo happy" is 2nd.

The best things I read in your post was that you and your DH are working together. Define for yourself what GD is in your family. And remember that if you love your children well you can afford a few mistakes along the way as you learn how to get thru to her.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Is this the child in your signature who is not yet 3? If so, I'd say asking her not to do something and expecting her to listen is setting your expectations way too high.

"Get Off Your Butt Parenting" is the way to go at that age (and for years to come), IME. If she's doing something you would like her not to, go over to her, get close to her, and help her to behave the way you would like her to. Explain to her gently what you need from her. "Stop" and "don't" are a lot less effective than "please" and "I need."

Engaging with her this way will probably also help you to not scream at her. The closer you are, the more connected you are.

yes, she will be 3 in september.
i already do what you said - i am by no means an armchair parent... parents like that piss me off. i'll give an example: when i make dinner, she likes to join in and brings her chair to stand on so she can help me prepare the food. i give her the butter knife to chop with as i don't believe it is safe for her to handle the knife i am using. she has her own vegies to chop. as soon as i turn my back she grabs my knife, and starts to chop. i gently ask her to "can i have the knife please, as it is mummy's knife and this knife is melia's knife" and she just laughs and continues to "cut" with it. i ask her again as i don't like to just grab things off her as that is incredibly rude and i don't want to model that behaivour. she still won't hand me the knife, won't give up, won't listen at all or compromise "when mummy is finished, she can help you handle that knife" etc until i threaten with the chair. i now take the knife with me so that is solved but i can't keep making provisions for everything as sometimes i can't always be there in front of her watching her every move (like when i am putting the baby to sleep). i wish i could but i can't. i often even ask her to follow me into the bathroom when i go to keep an eye on her







i guess what i am trying to say is i'd like for her to understand the concept of listening to me, but i also dont want her to be punished to make it happen. i'm just all over the place. another example is jumping on the bed. the other day she jumped on her sister, i went to get a glass of water..... do i have to basically have to take her along everywhere with me to avoid disaster? i have told her so, so, SO many times to not jump on the bed as it's dangerous, have re-directed her all those times to the floor "we can jump on the floor but not on the bed" etc and it never sinks in. she just repeats herself a few seconds later and starts jumping. what do i do in this case after i've explained and re-directed time and time again?

thankyou for the book rec, will check it out. will also rwad more on normal behaivour at that age.

btw, those two people i mentioned are actually AP or believers of AP (one is a mother and practices AP, one isnt a mother though), please don't assume they are mainstream.

cannot type much more as both kiddos are in my lap. please keep the posts coming.


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## MamaKye (Feb 2, 2006)

wow... is "Get off your butt Parrenting" a new book that's out? Is that the true title of a parenting style? LOL I think that is the funniest and ruddest way to offer advice to someone who is seeking to better themself for the sake of her family.
wow... hmm... I'll have to look that up when I'm raising a 6 mo and a 3yo. Its that simple, ya know? Have some boob here, chase a child at the same time, cook food now while child is attempting to burn house down.... etc. etc. Easy as pie! And COMPLETELY DOABLE 24/7!!!
I understand that children young & old need that one on one but Come on! Do we have to say it like that? Maybe I'm just overreacting but as a mother of an almost 2yo, my heart goes out to mammelia. She's trying to make things work. Don't you think we should encourage gentle teaching as well as gentle discipline?
Ok, with that said, I agree with all of thier advice. Only I'm saying without exhausting yourself, do try the one on one as much as possible. We see that you are trying your best & making such a strong effort to be the best mama you can be. You can do it! I'm so glad to see a mama that is willing to better herself for her family. Just be patient & understand that your 3yo is a 3yo. Society leads us to believe that a child should be this this & that no matter what the age. But in reality they are just innocent little new comers to this world just trying to take in an entire lifetime in just a single moment. They don't know any different. So, when she's painting your white walls or breaking her toys in half (or whatever it is that she's learning about) just try to see things through her perspective. She's just a curious anxious innocent child ready to take on the world. I think that when the one on ones become more frequent and the situations at hand are dealt with individually getting to the root of the problems, it will reflect in other places as well such as her needing to run into the street. I wish you the best. Think positive & be positive!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
i will usually repeat myself a good 7-8 times before i escort her to the naughty chair. she just laughs in my face. she will be 3 in september..(

This is part of the problem. She's bright, and she's learned that she doesn't HAVE to listen until you escort her to the naughty chair.

Instead, tell her ONCE and then go over and gently help her comply. Yes, ONCE. No more. Sometimes, I'll ask my kids "did you hear my words?" but if I KNOW they've heard me, nope. I'm able to be more gentle IF I do it the first time because I'm not so frustrated.

If you're nursing and/or putting the 6 month old down, then you're either going to have to let things slide OR stop doing them and attend to your older daughter. When that happened to me, either it was something I could grit my teeth and let go OR it was a safety issue and I would stand up and do it.

For your knife incident, I think it's too much language. There's a difference between being rude and needing to keep your child safe. "I would say. Stop. Put the knife down. That knife is sharp. It can hurt you." If she doesn't, I would go over, put my hand over hers and hold it gently until she lets go. No more words. But I won't let my 3 year old use a sharp knife. Period. No reasoning.

Since you know she does this, put the knife down where she can't reach it! That's the most effective way.

Quote:

do i have to basically have to take her along everywhere with me to avoid disaster?
At this age, yes. Not for all children, but for many.

(A) They have limited capacity to think ahead - that means she can't SEE the danger that MIGHT come. I've had great conversations with dd that go "Please don't jump off the bed. (We've progressed from jumping on the bed to jumping FROM the bed.) You can jump from XXX. There are too many things in the way near my bed. I'm afraid you might get hurt." Dd: "But I didn't get hurt!"

(B) Before about age 4, they have limited ability to STOP an action once they've started. So, either you need to get her before she starts the behavior (i.e. prevention) or you need to help her stop.

Other books you might find helpful:
Parenting with Purpose by Linda (Lynda?) Madison - on the stricter end of GD but it's got nice, practical solutions and it talks about development. It's a quick read too.

Becoming the Parent You Want to Be

Positive Discipline: The First 3 years (or something like that) by Jane Nelsen

Playful Parenting.

For 'theory' on why you want to limit time out try Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting.

We do 'time outs' (which is essentially what your naughty chair is), but only for kids who are CLEARLY out of control or physically hurting someone. And then it's more of a "we're going to sit here until you calm down" kind of thing.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
yes, she will be 3 in september.
i already do what you said - i am by no means an armchair parent... parents like that piss me off. i'll give an example: when i make dinner, she likes to join in and brings her chair to stand on so she can help me prepare the food. i give her the butter knife to chop with as i don't believe it is safe for her to handle the knife i am using. she has her own vegies to chop. as soon as i turn my back she grabs my knife, and starts to chop.

[snip]

another example is jumping on the bed. the other day she jumped on her sister, i went to get a glass of water..... do i have to basically have to take her along everywhere with me to avoid disaster? i have told her so, so, SO many times to not jump on the bed as it's dangerous, have re-directed her all those times to the floor "we can jump on the floor but not on the bed" etc and it never sinks in. she just repeats herself a few seconds later and starts jumping. what do i do in this case after i've explained and re-directed time and time again?











The knife has to stay out of her reach - that is your responsibility.

And yeah, if she likes to jump on the bed, you can't leave her alone there now either.

I know she seems old because you have a new baby, but really she's barely more than a baby herself.

-Angela


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Your daughter sounds like my youngest. You may be talking too much for a 2-3 year old. You talk about repeating yourself 7-8 times before using a consequence (BTW I hate "time out" because of the struggle involved in enforcing, I'm not judging, I just think it sets you up for further frustration and you get away from the issue at hand) that teaches your dd that she can keep doing whatever it is, and really doesn't have to listen to what you say at first. I catch myself doing this all the time (I'm a talkative person







)

Same thing with the knife scenario - say, "here's XXX's knife," offer her her knife back. If she doesn't relinquish your knife, you need to safely get it from her, and I would put her on the floor, and say, "my knife is dangerous. You can get back up and use your knife." I think there needs to be some action to your word. These are gentle, but she knows you mean business. If you create a logical consequence after a request that has been ignored, you will find less reason to use a "time out."

With the knife and the jumping incident, you need to make sure everyone can stay safe. We have an issue with door slamming at the moment, so all the doors have rubber stoppers, because safety is my responsibility.

She obviously wants to be included in what you're doing, and having a baby to nurse excludes her from being as close to you. Do make a point of when she's doing something positive, try and leave the baby and go over and give her a hug and say something like, "I'm so glad you're having fun playing xxxx" or give her more jobs to do with you. If baby will scream, you might just ask, "can mommy have a hug? I need a hug from my big girl right now!" This will help her feel more connected to you, which will help with communication in the long run.

Good luck, 3 is a difficult age!!!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

How big is your space? If she is anything like my two very spirited kids (2 1/2 and 5 1/2) she needs to be doing/moving alot (all the time really! LOL)
We have a couple old records I had from when I was working at a day care... they are listen and move sort of things they love them, it is a good two hours of running, walking, jumping ect. Also, I am not sure if you can but can you get a small indoor trampoline? (We have great weather about 9 months out of the year here I have plans on getting a big one for the back yard...) That way she can jump but not get in trouble... I think they make them for kids too with a bar to hold onto.
I also agree about letting her help out as much as possible... I know it makes stuff so much slower, but do it anyway... LOL my 2 year old loves to help with any and everything... taking out the trash, cooking, laundry, whatever, he is there helping.
As a side note, recently my 2 year old got lost at a park at just after dusk... so it was almost too dark to see he was missing for all of 3 minutes... but I tell you it was the scariest thing I have ever felt. All of a sudden all his annoying things are no longer that annoying. Plus It heps that I am reading a book by Oak Meadows (Waldorf homeschooling) called the "Heart of Learning: Preschool" it has some really great stuff on how to "deal" with young children... and it is great, very gentle.
I also have a "calm down" spot. Sometimes he just needs to chill out, or sometimes I need to just chill out, unfortunetly I have 4 other kids, so I can't always go sit in time out.

Hang in there, it does get better.

H


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaKye* 
wow... is "Get off your butt Parrenting" a new book that's out? Is that the true title of a parenting style? LOL I think that is the funniest and ruddest way to offer advice to someone who is seeking to better themself for the sake of her family.
wow... hmm... I'll have to look that up when I'm raising a 6 mo and a 3yo. Its that simple, ya know? Have some boob here, chase a child at the same time, cook food now while child is attempting to burn house down.... etc. etc. Easy as pie! And COMPLETELY DOABLE 24/7!!!
I understand that children young & old need that one on one but Come on! Do we have to say it like that? Maybe I'm just overreacting but as a mother of an almost 2yo, my heart goes out to mammelia. She's trying to make things work. Don't you think we should encourage gentle teaching as well as gentle discipline?

Thank you for saying this. The tone of many responses to a mother's cry for help and support are often really inappropriate, IMO. We, as mamas, should support and encourage each other....and with only the written word as our means of communicating here, coming right out and saying "this is so hard! i really get it! i'm so sorry you're having a hard time...we've all been there" can go a long way.

One thing I wanted to add is that this is simply a difficult place to be on the parenting trajectory. Having a new baby and a toddler/preschooler is very challenging. Add the sleep deprivation and mood swings of the mama and it can just be a rough ride sometimes. IT WILL GET BETTER...MUCH BETTER. My 2nd child is now just over 1 and I feel like we've really hit a good stride. Naps are easy to manage, i'm not nursing 24/7, the baby is mobile now and happier, etc., etc. It will get much easier.

For now, during this rough patch I would try to keep the baby with you as much as possible. Do you have a place she can be that is out of reach of your 3yo? I had a pack n' play that had a bassinet up high so until the baby could roll over, I put him in there if I had to run to the kitchen for a minute. A crib can also be a good place to put the baby that is safe if you have to go to the bathroom or something.

I agree that a lot will have to slide for now. Get take out, don't clean the house...just do the basics until you feel things are more manageable.

Hang in there...this will soon just be a story in the life and times of your family!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Can you try to be more "proactive?" (And that's not quite the word I want....b/c I don't mean it to sound so judgy and ick....)

But basically, can you give her some supervised time with the big knife BEFORE you need to really use it to get dinner going?

Can you set up pillows around the bed and spot her while she jumps?

So then the boundaries aren't, "You can't," they're, "Sure, but with these safety measures..."

Could you try a day of just saying, "Yes?" Even if you can't figure out a way right then and there to make it happen. Talk out loud about your concerns or the reasons why you think, "No." And see if some solutions don't pop up--from either or both of you!

I know when my second was born, my first heard, "No, honey, I can't do that right now." "Hang on." "In a little bit." "Not right now." etc. etc. a LOT. And it got really frustrating and ugly for all of us.

Best of luck! It's not easy, but there is lots of support and lots of great advice here!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Actually, "Get off your butt" parenting (GOYB) is exactly what LynnS6 was describing. It is not meant to imply that a mama is sitting on her butt all day; it means that after asking once (or twice), you go to your child. That's all it means.

I guess in the bigger sense it is implying that it works better than saying something over and over again and then snapping or punishing, but really, it is a legit technique, and one that I use successfully.

So, you'll not be surprised to hear that my advice is not to ask her to do things over and over again. Ask once, maybe twice and then go do it with her. Basically, what LynnS6 said.

Good luck!!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

As far as the naughty chair, I think it won't work for you if you ask her multiple times before using it. Kids will test the limits and she has learned that she doesn't need to listen the first time. That being said, most kids this age (unfortunately) don't listen the first time. I would try to keep her environment as safe as possible so that the stakes aren't too high if she doesn't respond right away.

The running into the street example is such a hard one. I have two friends who had "runners" and it was scary and exasperating for them. What worked for them both was a clear set of expectations on an outting - i.e., hold mama's hand when we cross the street, stop when I ask, etc. Then they would head right home if the child took off. It's very behavioral but in a safety situation, you gotta do what works I think. Another friend of mine has used "red light!" instead of stop and her child loves it! It's like a game...she just says it in a playful way and he really responds. Different things work for different kiddos.

Don't beat yourself up. This is tough. But I would alter your expectations of her a bit and see if that alone doesn't help. You could also have a little arsenol of distraction activities that you can use when she's doing something you don't like - i.e., if she's using markers on something she shouldn't, you can say 'hey let's color tattoos on our legs!'. I don't know, something like that. She respond to some unexpected or whacky responses and suggestions from you because it will catch her off guard. She's probably expecting a power struggle and if you surprise her with a different response, the cycle might break a bit.

Good luck with it all...I know it's so hard.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
i guess what i am trying to say is i'd like for her to understand the concept of listening to me, but i also dont want her to be punished to make it happen.

She will. But I would say not for a while. If I were you, I just wouldn't expect that you are going to be able to leave her unattended for long. She's still very young, if she's particularly impulsive then it'll probably take a couple more years for her to get more self-control.

You've gotten great advice here, I think that you can help her develop her self-control a lot faster if you do practice "Get Of Your Butt" parenting, which was not meant to be offensive at all. It's a term used here quite frequently.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
i have told her so, so, SO many times to not jump on the bed as it's dangerous, have re-directed her all those times to the floor "we can jump on the floor but not on the bed" etc and it never sinks in. she just repeats herself a few seconds later and starts jumping. what do i do in this case after i've explained and re-directed time and time again?

Do it a few more times?









Seriously, I would take this as an indication that she hasn't got enough self-control to keep herself from doing this at this time. It's not like the punishment is stopping the behavior, so why continue to punish? Jumping on the floor is no fun, I think finding a funner alternative is a good idea.

Good luck! She sounds like a lot of fun!


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

My advice is to get out of the house and to get a sling and make sure you are getting the nutrients and the sleep you need. My BFF just went through all of this with the birth of her second child. She amazes me! She'll get out and do things during the day and her oldest DC will fall asleep in the car. Everyone is happier that way. Your DD needs more stimulation. I know, because mine goes CRAZY after being in the house all day. Not good.

Sling=more involved mama, more active mama.

Maybe try sparing your words to her. I.e., I only tell DS to get out of the road if I can hear/see a car coming. He listens to me (26 months old) because he knows I only give him orders/guidelines if it is absolutely necessary. (Your DD may have run into the street to avoid going shopping though (my DS would probably rather get hit by a car than go shopping) or because she was overly tired.)

Why not jump on the bed? We jump on the bed together every day after DS's nap. He loves it and the impulse gets respected. He learns his boundaries and learns to avoid certain dangers safely as I am right there with him. (Don't doubt that he hasn't fallen off the bed, though, at other times. He has learned things the hard way, too, and it's really not that big of a deal). You may be able to connect with DD by creatively respecting her desires instead of having so many "no-nos" with her.

Hang in there mama. We're all finding our way. My latest struggle is that I lose my temper with DS when he hits my face or head. I hate losing my temper, too. Be gentle with yourself. And remind yourself that next time can be different.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
i have told her so, so, SO many times to not jump on the bed as it's dangerous, have re-directed her all those times to the floor "we can jump on the floor but not on the bed" etc and it never sinks in. she just repeats herself a few seconds later and starts jumping. what do i do in this case after i've explained and re-directed time and time again?


Redirect again. And again. And again. I'm going through the bed jumping thing with my 3 year old right now. I just tell him no and physically take him off the bed every. single. time. Also when he swipes my glasses off my face. I tell him no and I take them back. every. single. time. No punishment or yelling or anything like that, just teaching. He is only a 3 year old after all. Like Lynn S6 said, I'm nice, I say no you can't have that, but I also perform the action of taking the glasses back or taking him off the bed and out of the room and closing the door. And no time out because at 3 years old that's just a waste of time anyway. I personally don't like time out at all, but especially when they're not even school age I just don't think they get the message.

Quote:

i now take the knife with me so that is solved but i can't keep making provisions for everything as sometimes i can't always be there in front of her watching her every move (like when i am putting the baby to sleep).
It needs to be kept where she can't reach it at all times, whether you are in the room or not.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
when i make dinner, she likes to join in and brings her chair to stand on so she can help me prepare the food. i give her the butter knife to chop with as i don't believe it is safe for her to handle the knife i am using. she has her own vegies to chop. as soon as i turn my back she grabs my knife, and starts to chop. i gently ask her to "can i have the knife please, as it is mummy's knife and this knife is melia's knife" and she just laughs and continues to "cut" with it. i ask her again as i don't like to just grab things off her as that is incredibly rude and i don't want to model that behaivour. she still won't hand me the knife, won't give up, won't listen at all or compromise "when mummy is finished, she can help you handle that knife" etc until i threaten with the chair. i now take the knife with me so that is solved but i can't keep making provisions for everything as sometimes i can't always be there in front of her watching her every move

I recommend the book Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, which is aimed at parents of children this age.

If it doesn't work to reason with her and she keeps doing something you think is unsafe, then don't hesitate to act. Say out loud, "You don't seem to be able to stop playing with the sharp knife, so I'm going to take it away now." Don't give her 27 chances--she's probably just not ready to listen. When she's older you'll give her more opportunities to try it on her own.

Of course this was all a LOT easier for me! I have only one child, he's very mellow, not at all spirited. But he did do all the stuff you're describing. He tried things we thought were dangerous, he wanted to do things we said no to, all of that.

The key is to interrupt the behavior. Punishments, even gentle ones, don't do anything. Stopping the behavior with a very very brief explanation of why you are doing so works well. Yes, even as brief as "That's not safe!" is enough!

It will get easier as she gets older.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Can you try to be more "proactive?" (And that's not quite the word I want....b/c I don't mean it to sound so judgy and ick....)

But basically, can you give her some supervised time with the big knife BEFORE you need to really use it to get dinner going?

Can you set up pillows around the bed and spot her while she jumps?

So then the boundaries aren't, "You can't," they're, "Sure, but with these safety measures..."

Could you try a day of just saying, "Yes?" Even if you can't figure out a way right then and there to make it happen. Talk out loud about your concerns or the reasons why you think, "No." And see if some solutions don't pop up--from either or both of you!

I know when my second was born, my first heard, "No, honey, I can't do that right now." "Hang on." "In a little bit." "Not right now." etc. etc. a LOT. And it got really frustrating and ugly for all of us.

Best of luck! It's not easy, but there is lots of support and lots of great advice here!









:

seriously, it's so much easier to say "yes". i've let my 2-1/2 year old use the sharp knife since he was old enough to want to help me. i'm right next to him and we've experimented with what happens when the sharp knife touches him (no cuts of course, but that's it's ouchy) and now i just tell him to watch his fingers and it's fine.

mine still doesn't listen too well, and i totally understand the frustration. i especially notice the frenetic unfocused behaviour with absolutely NO listening skills after he watches too much tv. i can't imagine having a baby at the same time.







you have my sympathy mama!

we don't really time out, but when he gets really crazy, running around and laughing when i try to ask him to do something (it's a game at that point not to listen to me) i will put him in the bath or sit and start reading a book out loud. i find if he doesn't get attention from me chasing after him, then he'll come to me to get the attention.

i've also tried to work with him on saying, "i need some attention now" when he wants me instead of acting crazy to get attention.

i think a great book that helped me a lot is called, "hold on to your kids why parents need to matter more than peers". it's about a lot of different stuff but the central theme is attachment (not really in the dr. sears sense of the word) and they explain the psychology of the attachment relationship really well i'm finding.

one more thing, a previous poster had mentioned needing space and time to collect ourselves and calm down as a reason she might go to the "naughty chair" on her own. i think this sounds right on to me!









how about making it not so much a negative consequences thing but a "i can see your having trouble focusing on what i'm asking you right now. let's take a minute to practice our patience and really listen to one another right now. i need some quiet space to think and it seems you do too."

encourage her to go there when she needs to.

just my two cents. it seems like there's some good advice here good luck!!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaKye* 
I understand that children young & old need that one on one but Come on! Do we have to say it like that? Maybe I'm just overreacting but as a mother of an almost 2yo, my heart goes out to mammelia. She's trying to make things work. Don't you think we should encourage gentle teaching as well as gentle discipline?

Respectfully, you're completely over-reacting. It's a common slogan used around here and in other GD circles. It's not meant to be rude. It's meant to be informative and descriptive.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LarissaHouTX* 
Hi Mama, Im sure the GD activists here will flame me, oh well. Here's what I think.

mamamelia wrote: (sorry dont know how to do that quote thingy & no time to look it up)
_....i don't want to give dd the impression that she is not welcome if she misbehaves..._
To this I say - why not? Her behaivior is unwelcome. When did not tolerating bad behaivior become the same as not loving? In using her time out chair - arent you trying to teach her what is appropriate so that she can be with you, peacefully, more often?

Actually, a timeout chair (or any other form of punishment) does nothing to teach a child how TO behave - it is an attempt to teach a child how NOT to behave, which is an entirely different thing.

Until a child knows what TO do, all the punishment in the world isn't going to help them do it.

Praising and rewarding appropriate behavior (catch them being good) helps a child understand what they are supposed to do - and when they know what TO do, they spend less time doing what they're NOT supposed to do. It is a slow process!

This might sound weird, but we used the same philosophy with our puppy. Obviously you can't explain to a puppy why you don't want him to howl when you're eating supper, but you CAN teach him that he must be quiet. We put our pup in a puppy playpen in the kitchen while we ate supper. If he whined, barked, or howled, we ignored him - to the point where we turned our heads away from him. When he had been quiet for a few seconds, we praised him with words and smiles. Within 3 days our 10-week-old pup had learned to be quiet during meals - without so much as a harsh word directed his way. he's a herding dog, and naturally wanted to herd our children. It took just a couple of days of positive training for him to learn that they are not sheep.

Toddlers and puppies are alike in a lot of ways!


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## spottiew (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Other books you might find helpful:
Parenting with Purpose by Linda (Lynda?) Madison - on the stricter end of GD but it's got nice, practical solutions and it talks about development. It's a quick read too.

Becoming the Parent You Want to Be

Positive Discipline: The First 3 years (or something like that) by Jane Nelsen

Playful Parenting.

For 'theory' on why you want to limit time out try Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting.

ALso, Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka... there's some good ideas relating to listening, not having battles, etc.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

thanks guys... just quickly as i am short on time and should be sleeping... we have banished the naughty chair... and are re-evaluating our parenting views.. i say that because we used to be a CC family. dd was a CC baby and toddler for a long time, never really heard the word NO, to anything. she was very much free to explore what she wanted when she wanted.
anyway, we realised that even though she looks like a young child, she is still a baby inside... and we are trying to figure out WHAT made us change our minds and shift from being CC (and understanding and knowing that everything she is doing is not to make a mess or be a pain, but is a learning experience, one that we can't yet understand or should stop), to suddenly imposing rules of all sorts (was it pressure from family, everyone saying "oh she is such a big girl now" etc). we are going to go back to our old ways of being more CC'ish for a while.
i had a "yes" day the day after i read the responses, and it went wonderfully.







she really is a fantastic kid. she IS a handful and challenging, but deep down inside she is WONDERFUL. there are some things i still don't allow, but it's ok.... i've made some provisions and it seems to be working out great. we laugh alot more.







she hasn't been to the naughty chair since monday? i did lose it once since then, and it got a little ugly.... i think she knew she was behaving badly on purpose, as she apologised and kept kissing me afterwards even though i hadn't said anything or sent her anywhere (like the naughty chair).

i should add, regarding the knife incident.. she KNOWS how to cut with the sharp knife i use, quite well i might add as we've let her practice when i'm done (supervised of course - i don't believe it's safe for her to do it unsupervised, and to me, unsupervised means i am focusing on what i am chopping and not looking at her fingers and cutting technique. so no, she can't do it when standing side by side until i feel confident enough to know she fully understands its dangers)







: i just hate it when she grabs my knife and wont give it back. i hate snatching in general and i find it sneaky when she waits for me to turn my back to take it. i guess i dislike the intent behind it and that's what was bothering me.

anyway, thanks again... this was pretty helpful.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

yay! way to go mama! glad to her things are going so well!

isn't it interesting when that we've changed something without even realizing it? i had almost the same experience with our new puppy where all the sudden i was yelling and crabby and i had forgotten all my previous poitive reinforcement training techniques. the puppy is much happier now.


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## Realrellim (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
Say out loud, "You don't seem to be able to stop playing with the sharp knife, so I'm going to take it away now."

We do this often, and it works well for situations where kids usually do ok, but in this circumstance they are not behaving in a safe manner (like waving a knife around instead of using it to carefully chop something).

Regarding the naughty chair: I don't like the idea of it as a punishment, and you said you've already stopped using it with good results. However, sometimes toddlers need a break to calm down--and that's probably why your DD voluntarily went there in the past. She was using the space to help her regain control. You might consider using that technique in the future, with different wording and probably a different chair: something like "let's just sit for a minute" might do.

Good luck!


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

oh, I'm so happy for you, Mama. What a great report.


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## purplepixiewing (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm so glad things are going better for you guys. I was also going to recommend reading Raising Your Spirited Child. I have two of them, spirited children that is and that book was a life saver with my first one. Even if you don't have a spirited child it's a really good book.


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## MamaKye (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Respectfully, you're completely over-reacting. It's a common slogan used around here and in other GD circles. It's not meant to be rude. It's meant to be informative and descriptive.

mamamelia (and dragonfly), my apologies for overreacting. My bad! As a new comer, seeing that lovely catch phrase for the first time kinda hit me off guard. I was just trying to encourage you while it appeared that some were flaming you.
Oops.
However, I am so glad that things are working for you. And I still wish the very best for you and your family!


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## Manfa (May 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
Actually, a timeout chair (or any other form of punishment) does nothing to teach a child how TO behave - it is an attempt to teach a child how NOT to behave, which is an entirely different thing.

Until a child knows what TO do, all the punishment in the world isn't going to help them do it.

Praising and rewarding appropriate behavior (catch them being good) helps a child understand what they are supposed to do - and when they know what TO do, they spend less time doing what they're NOT supposed to do. It is a slow process!

This might sound weird, but we used the same philosophy with our puppy. Obviously you can't explain to a puppy why you don't want him to howl when you're eating supper, but you CAN teach him that he must be quiet. We put our pup in a puppy playpen in the kitchen while we ate supper. If he whined, barked, or howled, we ignored him - to the point where we turned our heads away from him. When he had been quiet for a few seconds, we praised him with words and smiles. Within 3 days our 10-week-old pup had learned to be quiet during meals - without so much as a harsh word directed his way. he's a herding dog, and naturally wanted to herd our children. It took just a couple of days of positive training for him to learn that they are not sheep.

Toddlers and puppies are alike in a lot of ways!


No it doesn't sound weird AT ALL. I'm new to being a parent, but I've been around dogs all my life and I can say categorically that prety much every paragraph is also applicable to a sensible and successful approach to dog training. Dogs and kids are similar in that respect - except that you can reason with kids to a degree.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

mamakye, i wasn't offended, so please do not apologise. i was actually happy to read your post as the "get off your butt reccomendation" offended me as i am anything but an armchair parent.

i just never got to say thanks. so, thanks.









on another note - were totally thrilled for changing the rules! she was such a pleasure at the shops today... i didn't argue about holding hands or whatnot and instead of saying "come here" i said "come see what i'm looking at!". "let's see where daddy is!" "lets go find a new book to read" etc etc

today i tried the "i am trying to see what everything is through your eyes" method and tried to re-direct or allow stuff based on the circumstance. e.g she wanted to play with the shop mannicans and i thought i could
a) pull her off and say "no"
b) ask her to get down in a nice tone (yeah like that's going to work for a spirited child)
c) re-direct her to something else in the store (might as well be option "b")
d) allow her to do something with the damn mannican but not damaging

and so i said "oh wow, look at those lovely shoes he's wearing. do you want to buckle his shoes?" "yes" and so she buckled his shoes over and over again, i got to look at things in peace and then we left that section together with no tantrums.

ahhh.......







: i am starting to really like being a GD parent.

Quote:

Regarding the naughty chair: I don't like the idea of it as a punishment, and you said you've already stopped using it with good results. However, sometimes toddlers need a break to calm down--and that's probably why your DD voluntarily went there in the past. She was using the space to help her regain control. You might consider using that technique in the future, with different wording and probably a different chair: something like "let's just sit for a minute" might do.
YES! that is a fabulous idea. i mean if she was volunteering to get her chair so she can put it in the naughty corner.... well, that's saying something i guess. i think we will have a "let's have a minute off *together* and take a look at what is happening" space for when we need to calm down. me included.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

yay! yay! yay!

Good to hear! Thanks for the happy update!

Two things that worked well with my spirited child:

1. He understood and was agreeable to requests that had a "good" reason behind them. So, "Please leave the mannequin alone," would not have the same affect on him as, "Uh oh, the store probably doesn't want us to touch these." He would "get" that the store had a reason for not wanting the mannequins broken and would be OK with that explaination.

2. Time-ins. Like the pps said, getting out of a heated situation and breathing, cuddling, nursing, singing, talking about what was upsetting, and setting a game plan for going back in worked wonderfully for us! I remember the first time my little monkey started to get stressed about another child taking over his space and puzzle and he stopped, looked at me, and said, "Mommy, I need a break!" And we left the room and he kept saying, "I taking a breaking. I taking a break. I taking a break."









Not punitive, not timed, not forced, but just another tool to calm down and regroup.

Anyway, thanks for the update and I'm so happy things are running smoother!


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## MamaKye (Feb 2, 2006)

yay! I'm so inspired to hear that GD is truly working for you!!! And I'm glad that I didn't offend you. I tend to go off sometimes... oops... I have too much passion and no where to vent it sometimes so I just go overboard. Plus I'm not all educated with everything here at MDC yet. So, I thought positive encouragement never hurts! I'm sure you & your little ones will show many more positive outcomes from GD. Now I'm going to go post a similar thread on where I can learn more about GD. LOL. best wishes!


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