# What is wrong with punishment?



## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Ok- I know darn well I will get flamed for asking this, but what is wrong with punishment?

Example: I was reading the power struggle book and there was an example about a kid who went biking outside fo mutually agreed boundaries AND was late to dinner. The mom in this example agreed that once he showed her that he could ride in heavier traffic safely, she extended his boundaries.

I have to admit I would not react that way. I would discuss the reasons why we agreed on those boundaries and why time is important (or at least a call if your going to be late) and I would revoke biking privledges (punishment) for a time. Why? Because it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. I would want to teach my children that it's ok to ask to redefine the boundaries, but it's NOT ok to do it on your own. I would certainly be up to expanding boundaries, but only after the time without bike had passed.

Why would punishment be bad in this case?
As adults in the society we face punishment for failing to obey the rules (tickets for speeding is a perfect example).
Why is this bad?


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I don't think anything is wrong with punishment, just the way it is or can be used. In your case, I think that time away from the bicycle would be fine, and good. But, for me personally, I would not extend it to other things, like a severe grounding. I would just relate it to the bicycle. I also think that the reaction from the parent needs to be contolled, and not get all freaky, yelling, screaming and such. Just an explanation of why those boundaries are in place, and that bicycle privleges will be lost for a certain amount of time. Even get the child involved in what action should be taken place.


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## khrisday (Mar 18, 2002)

To me, "punishment" is something inflicted in an effort to retaliate, shame, or force a child into doing what the parents want. That's not ok with me. I do, however believe in natural/logical consequences. What you have described with the bike isue is a logical consequence to me. (ie if you can't ride your bike where we agreed upon, your bike will be put away for a while) I think the way that you present them also makes the difference in what is punishment, what is logical consequence. I mean, if you're angry and yelling, then a very logical consequence becomes a punishment. If you are calm and uninvolved, something that could be seen as a punishment becomes a very logical consequence.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I geuss I just don't know all the lingo, cause our posts were almost the same! I don't know the terms, but I know what is in my heart. Nicely put, khrisday.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I mostly agree with Khrisday. Punishment means inflicting pain as retribution for bad act. Saying you can't use the bike for a while because you did not use it as we agreed, it NOT punishment, it is a logical consequence.

As to the yelling, if my kid didn't come home on time, I might yell at them to let them know how upset and worried and scared out of my mind it made me. I think most kids old ennough to ride a bike on their own on some level understand that this kind of yelling ("OMG I was so worried, don't ever do that again!" is done out of concern, even though they don't like it.)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Foo! That's so hilarious that you are reading that book, so am I! Just checked it out of the library on the weekend, lol!

Anyways, I agree with everybody else - what you suggest doing falls under the "natural/logical" consequences category and teaches the child about the consequences of his/her actions. So I don't really consider it "punishment".

As far as punishment in general, I am realizing as I read and think more about it, that it serves little purpose if there is no relation to the "crime". I have to ask myself, what are my goals as a parent, and what am I trying to acheive when I use discipline? I don't want to teach them that the one with the power sets the rules ("I'm your parent, that's why!"). I do want to teach my children that their feelings matter, that it is human and okay to make mistakes, that we should own up to our mistakes, etc. And I am also beginning to understand why kids need limits, and how limits can be applied effectively and in a way that preserves the child's dignity. What you have described does that, so I think it's a great response!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Punishment, according to my dictionary, is "a penalty imposed for wrongdoing." According to psychology, a punishment is somehting to do to the subject to decrease the liklihood that he will repeat the action that preceded it. Call it "logical consequences", if you want, but it's the same thing. Punishments that are logically connected to the offense are more likely to effectively reduce the incidence of the behavior, but they're still punishments.

Parenting without punishment requires a real mind-shift. I'm not sure you can understand it until you do it - you're interactingwith your child without having that underlying knowledge that if I don't like the way it works out - if I don't like what he does - I can do something unpleasant to him. It's a kind of power. I don't want my relationship with my kid to be so based on that power disparity. I think being the punisher taints the parent-child relationship, and makes it harder to truly be with your child, to trust and be trusted, to be on the same side working towards the same goals.

In the example given, I would focus on problem-solving - why didn't you talk to me about expanding boundaries? But, see, my kid *would* talk to me. Being late for dinner might upset me if I'd planned something special and shed' agreed to a certain time, in which case I'd grump a bit... but generally I assume she has a good reason, and she usually does.

Dar


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Punishment.

An activity that generates discomfort, pain or fear, either physical mental or emotional, for any reason deemed appropriate, that enables a predator to further coerce a victim, and bend them to the predator's will, with less and less effort.

Now. How do you wish to develop _your_ relationship with your child?

Not like that I'm sure.

a


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hmmm, interesting. So, I'm curious, if the options are made clear in the first place (eg. "if you ride outside the agreed boundaries, you will lose your bike privileges for x number of days"), and the child rides outside the boundaries, aren't they making a choice? Is the denying of bike privileges the "use of power" by the parent, or is it the logical (and known) consequence of the child's choices?

I'm very new to this GD stuff and eager to learn....


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Meriam Webster defines punishment as:
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

I personally veiw punishment as the 2b version.

Dar-

I just can't see not imposing a penalty in this case. It would have to be a greed upon penalty where when we set up the boundaries we agreed on the consquences, but I think that if a boundary or rule that was agreed upon was broken purposely, then the consquence (punishment) should be served.

Not picking on Dar.

Alexander- I think we disagree on the definition of punishment. Of course it would not be used for coercion. I would use it to reinforce ground rules that we both agree to.

I guess the definition is the key.

Piglet- I think if you work out the consequences with your child, it allows for more controled decision making. For example if I saw "no bike riding for x days after a violation of our boundaires" and my dd argues for "how about riding to school?" and we agree that she can still ride to school but only for that purpose and not for fun, then we've agreed to the consequences. Then we (the parent) isn't forcing power on the child, but we are working out the consquences(punishment) before hand.

Am I making sense or am I babbling?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

It is hard to see how it works if you haven't been there... like I said, it's a whole other way to parent.

The goal with having boundaries, I assume, is for the child to be safe, and perhaps for the parent to be able to locate the child easily. The child would naturally also want these things. If the boundaries are set up with the child's input, if he truly agrees and isn't just saying "yeah, yeah, whatever", then he has no reason to go outside them without informing parents.

If you punish a child for going outside the boundaries, the message is one of power - you did something wrong and now I can make something bad happen to you. Being on a child's side means talking it through and trying to figure out how to avoid problems in the future.

If your partner agreed to clean up the kitchen before you got home and you arrived home to find the kitchen a wreck, what would you do? Would you assume that he probably had a good reason for not cleaning the kitchen? Would you try to figure out how important it was to you, and talk it through with him? You can do the same things with your kids - even really little kids - if they see you as an ally and not an adversary. Discipline is teaching, and how would you prefer to be taught - with punishment, or with conversatiosn aimed at problem-solving.

Again, it does work. Actually, when I taught children with emotional and behavioral problems I tried to take this tack as much as possible, and it worked with them, too, so it's not just my kid...

Dar


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dar_
The goal with having boundaries, I assume, is for the child to be safe, and perhaps for the parent to be able to locate the child easily. The child would naturally also want these things.

If you don't mind me pestering you for more information...









So, let's say your kids wants to be able to ride his bike everywhere, including very busy streets that border your neighbourhood and say, across a highway that runs past. You are discussing the guidelines of biking with your kid. Kid wants to be able to ride everywhere, dismisses your concerns about them not being experienced enough (yet) to ride past the dangerous areas. Children do have a sense of immortality, and a "it can't happen to me" attitude. You can talk about compromise, but at some point you are going to have to set the limits b/c you are the parent. I mean, what if you keep saying "I feel that you need to have some off-limits areas until you are more experienced" and the kid keeps saying "But I feel I am experienced enough and that you are just being a worry-wart"...where does that get you? What if the child can't compromise?

Quote:

If the boundaries are set up with the child's input, if he truly agrees and isn't just saying "yeah, yeah, whatever", then he has no reason to go outside them without informing parents.
Now, maybe this is because I was raised in a fairly strict home and was rarely given input into the rules, but I can think of a million times when I just blatantly went "outside the boundaries" because it suited me and I felt my desire to go with my friends (for example) outweighed the agreement I made with my parents. The child may have no reason to go outside the boundaries, but I'm not convinced that means they won't.

And if they do, how do you respond? I think we've agreed that blatant punishment isn't what any of us want, but I feel there should be some consequences, otherwise what message do we send our child other than "we can talk and make rules that we agree on, but if you decide later to ignore them, there is no consequence".

?


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## granolamom (Sep 30, 2002)

We have never been big on punishments...

Natural/logical consequences...YES!!!

Sometimes though, penalties are needed for purely reasons of safety.....


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## khrisday (Mar 18, 2002)

I do think there is a difference between punishments and logical/natural consequences.

As parents who love and are connected to our children, we want to shield them from any harm, but I think that interfering with natural consequences is detriemntal to them in the long run.

I remember a thread here a while back where a woman's dd had saved up money to buy herself one of those American Girl dolls (quite a bit of money) and she kept forgetting to bring the doll in at night. Mom wanted to know what to do about it. Seemed pretty logical to me- (once she had discussed the issue with her dd) don't bring it in for her, stop reminding her. It's her doll, it's her issue. One night outside woudl hardly ruin a vinyl doll. It may, though, serve as a good reminder to the girl.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

PIglet, I love your questions. I am wondering some of the same things. I have a 1 year old (OMG is she really THAT old!!!) I'm just starting to look into the discipline topic and this is a great discussion.

Thanks to all for the input!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Rain wanted to be able to wander through downtown Davis with a friend. She's 10, friend is 12. Davis is a nice town but it's a biggish (50K) town, and a college town. OTOH, she knows her way around and has already been offered pot when she went to get something out of the car during rehearsal once, and she seemed find with it. Still, turning her loose in Davis made me nervous, and I said so. She asked what I thought might happen, and I came up with a few scenerios. We role-played them, and she did make good choices. I was still nervous. She suggested that they check in at certain intervals (I was going to be at the theater). Better, but still... we weren't agreeing but we were still talking. Finally, she mentioned that her friend could borrow her mom's cell. I asked for the number, asked that she and friend stay together, and if friend decided to go home she come right back. I asked how far they were going. I asked her to let me know if she was going to go anywhere else. She said okay. I said okay. We truly both felt okay with the decision, and we both knew we could renegotiate if we felt we needed to. My first choice would have been for them to play cards in the lobby, but when I look at it rationally, it seems to be an acceptable risk.

If crossing roads was an issue, we might go out together and I'd watch her cross. We actually did that a year or two ago. When she first wanted to stay home alone she was 7, and I was running to the library half a mile away to return books. In the 10 minutes I was gone, the UPS woman came by (I was WAH then and got a lot of UPS deliveries) and Rain opened the door to her without asked who it was through the door or anything. I got home and was shocked and unahppy and scared - what if it had been someone else? - and Rain admitted that she hadn't thought and had just acted, and she was a bit deflated. So she didn't stay home alone for a while - not as punishment, but because she wasn't really ready, and we both could see that.

By the time Rain was riding a bike, she really didn't have a sense of immortality. When she was 2, yes - she once ran out to a pool at that age on the first day of summer and hopped right into the deep end, not thinking about the fact that she couldn't swim... but as she grew older, she had more experiences where she could explore her limits, and she got pretty good at finding them. When we disagreed on her capabilities, we experimented - sometimes she was right, and sometimes I was, but we did out best to find experimenst that were controlled and safe, like crossing streets together with me just walking a few steps behind. We also talked about things a lot - about drivers who are distracted, or how short people can't be seen in rear view mirrors, or how the pedestrian is just as dead f he's hit in a crosswalk as outside of one, so always be aware. We walk a lot together. And, maybe most importantly, she knows she won't get punished if she messes up, so she's pretty inclined to tell me as soon as she does.

Dar


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, Dar. Reading your post I couldn't help but think what a "together" mom you are. I really hope I have such a good and open relationship with my DD when she is 10! Of course, that's what I've been striving for from day one. Anyways, thanks for answering so well! I guess going with your child and gauging for yourself whether they are "ready" is a possibility I hadn't considered.

I look forward to learning more about GD...think I'm gonna stick around this forum awhile!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Dar,

I loved reading about your interactions with your daughter, but I'm not quite sure how this parenting style would translate into interactions between a parent and a two- or three-year-old (given the differences in perception, abilities to rationalize and grasp more complex concepts, and ability to reason through language between a two- or three-year-old and a seven- or ten-year old). Do you have any examples from those ages that you might offer? Or maybe some hypotheticals? I, for one, am really interested!

Thanks


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

I had this good friend in highschool. One day we were out driving around at the lake, and I don't really even remember how, but we drove off the road and somehow hit the spare tire on the back of his bronco and put a huge dent in the back door. I could tell he felt sick to his stomach bad about it and the first thing he wanted to do was go call his dad. Telling his dad he had a problem made him feel better, it was the first thing he wanted to do. He had this problem he knew he had to fix, but he also knew he could call on his parents for support. I think we even went back to his house pretty quickly and he got hugs and was ready with several ideas of ways to fix this problem.

I think that even if you are gentle, logical, ect a punishment inflicted by you leads to less attachment. I know that in my family, if I did something wrong, I didn't really worry about it because I knew I would be punished and then off the hook. The problem wasn't mine, I would do my time and that would be the end of it. I would never imagine stopping a fun time early to call my parents with my mistake. I just would have kept driving around and probably even stayed out late, I was just going to get yell out, teased, ect, why go home for that?

I am going to add some specific tips and links to more philisophical thoughts to help with 2 and 3 year olds (actually that is how old my boys are now)

--I look to my own actions first; model the appropriate behavior. Kids aren't listening? I am going to start by responding quickly and the way I want to be answered when they call me 700 times a day. If you want an answer the first time then start responding the first time and if you don't like them just to yell what when you say thier name, model a better choice. (Even occasionally pointing it out, wow, you called my name and I got here so fast.)

--Look at things as problems you have to solve together not you need to point out how wrong they were and make them pay for the mistake (yes this is how speeding tickets work, but it is not how my family works, our home is a haven from the problems in the world. Besides, I am not arguing that punishments aren't all around us, I am arguing that they don't really work. I have a brother who is always getting tickets or his liscence taken away, and though he may slow down around cops, he still says that a liscence is just an excuse to speed and really does not understand why a person doesn't (I don't speed, because I want to keep myself and my family safe, not because I might get fined.)

--I copied this from another thread about hitting. My boys are 1 1/2 and 3, and I find sometimes I have to spend 2 or 3 days right between them. During this time I pretty much only play with them and I am there to help them learn new and better choices for solving problems before we get to the hitting. And after three days of having an adult there to talk about how they are feeling and give them other options for what ever went wrong, I feel like they have sort of been rewired. So that when those difficult times come up they use one of the other things we have practiced and rarely hit. Of course I do have to repeat this every few months

Talking to kids about a problem

Why is consistancy important, or isn't it?

something I read (consistancy)

My internally consistant "rules"

Well I think that is enough for now


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Punishment=

"You stood on the table at the edge to get that cup. That is not allowed because it is dangerous. No cake and ice-cream for you tonight!"

Natural consequences=

"You stood on the table at the edge to get that cup. That is not allowed because it is dangerous. And then you fell down!"

Natuaral consequences are not always what we want. Little ones are surely the best way for children to learn about the real world, but the example above needs a third aproach.

Being there and taking part.

Then the child is receptive to your comments about the possible dangers, or better still, you can catch the child if they do slip.

Lesson learned.

a


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I just read something really interesting in a book by Anthony Wolf. Wolf is not AP but does not believe in punishment.

He says punishment is the "intentional infliction of suffering with no purpose other than to cause suffering in response to some bad action." He says punishment is immoral because it teaches that inflicting human suffering is sometimes justified as a means to an end.

Punishment: You did not pick up all of your lego set from the living room like I asked, the baby almost put one in her mouth! So, no TV for you all week.

Natural Consequences: You did not pick up all of your lego set from the living room like I asked, the baby almost put one in her mouth, so no lego playing anywhere but in your own room with the door closed.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

That's not a natural consequence - natural consequences are those that happen without invtervention on your part. If the baby ate a lego and you had to wach your mom crying and doing the Heimlich maneuver and it was scary and awful, that would be natural consequences. Lego playing only in your room would be logical consequences (still punishment, just punishment that's somehow related to the "crime"). Non-punitive disipline would be sitting down and saying,"Suzie put a lego in her mouth and could have choked, and it really scared me. Can we figure out a way for you to play legos where she can't get to them?" If the agreed-upon solution is to keep legos in the bedroom with the door shut then it wouldn't be punishment... but there ar many other options (Legos on a table, during naptime, when Suzie is in the sling, etc).

I think parenting small children without punishment is harder, at least initially - it takes more time, and you really have to think creatively. The payoff, of course, is that once the groundwork is laid, the rest of it is much easier. Now that we're in the habit of working together like this, parenting Rain (10) is almost entirely a joy.

Dar


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Dar

You are right, I should have called it a logical consequence.

I still don't think of it as punishment, but I understand that in your view they are.

I do feel very comfortable with logical consequences. I believe that these consequences are how the world works. You don't always get to negotiate the rules in life, especially at work. Sometimes they just are.

It seems like this type of parenting really works for you and your DD. It would not be right for me or my kids though.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I just want to pop in and thank you all for this excellent dicussion. I've been following it along, and feeling quite empowered. The comparisons/*so-called* differences between punishment and natural/reasonable consequences have really got me to thinking. I'm printing out the thread so DH and I can discuss it together.

Dar, Alexander and Mallory... excellent suggestions and scenarios indeed.

Em


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I think the example with the legos is insane! So you are going to risk your baby choking so you don't infringe upon your childs rights? I have to say I am not into this at all personally. In my house if the child did the bike riding thing they would be out of a bike for two weeks AND have to write a one page paper on responsibility. If they left their legos out after being told to put them away and baby choked (incidentally why wasn't mom watching baby but that's another story) the legos would be take away for a week. I have to admit I am a lot stricter than most here. I don't scream and smack my kids but I do expect them to comply with the rules and to expect consequences when they do not. They are children and I am the adult. I have more experience than I do and its my job as a parent to teach them from my experiences.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_ I think the example with the legos is insane! So you are going to risk your baby choking so you don't infringe upon your childs rights?
I didn't hear anybody say anything about "rights", am I missing something? And I also didn't hear Dar say that she would just wait until the baby choked. I think (if I may speak for Dar!) that she said she would discuss the problem with the child, the potential danger, and then work with the child to find a solution. I like this idea b/c it teaches the child something about a) taking responsibility for having a problem (in this case, the problem is that there is lego everywhere, and it is the child's doing) and b) how to solve your problems. I think just taking the lego away doesn't really teach the child anything except "I make the rules and you follow, or else". Am I not getting what you're saying? Am I missing your point?

Quote:

I have more experience than I do and its my job as a parent to teach them from my experiences.
So, when you forgot to put the vaccuum away promptly and your DH tripped over it, did he take away your car privileges for a week? I ask this NOT to be mean, I'm just trying to explore your POV. My feeling is: if it's not how you would expect another person to treat you when you made a mistake, why would you treat your child that way? I honestly want to hear you expand on what you said above, b/c I'm in the midst of studying all this and right now, I just don't understand the rationale behind your suggestion...







:

Teach me!


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## DeChRi (Apr 19, 2002)

I was raised in an AP home, and was never punished. I was raised just like Dar raises Rain. No one believes that I cannot recall "getting in trouble" as a kid. (Not a spanking, a raised voice, a time out, etc) But I always knew the limits. I found that if I totally honest with my parents and did exactly what I told them I was, I got MORE freedom than those who pushed the limits. Now I am married with a 4 yr old, and realize how much I appreciate being raised like that. I am super close with my parents. Just wanted to give an example of an "end result"







of this parenting style.
Jo


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I think (if I may speak for Dar!) that she said she would discuss the problem with the child, the potential danger, and then work with the child to find a solution. I like this idea b/c it teaches the child something about a) taking responsibility for having a problem (in this case, the problem is that there is lego everywhere, and it is the child's doing) and b) how to solve your problems.*
I agree (about liking the idea) but I'm still not sure how this would work with a 2-year-old. I tend to be one who "overtalks" things with ds (at least according to others - I feel pretty comfortable with it, though I know that much of what I say is probably lost on him; I just like him to know that things that impact him are worth thought and discussion) and do strive to have him actively engaged in his own "discipline", but I have to admit that if I were stepping on Legos (the pain!) over and over because he kept leaving them out, I'd be likely to put them away for awhile - not as an "I told you so - look what you made me do!" but as an "I really need to be able to put little sis down for a second in our living space without worrying that she's going to choke to death." If he were 4 or 5, we'd likely have a great discussion about it and set mutually agreeable boundaries - but 2? I'm just not seeing it (and I really would like to)! Maybe I'm just being thick?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Jojo, it was so cool to hear about your experiences growing up - I'd love to hear more.

I don't think everything needs to be talked out. A lot of times, little kids really don't care how things like legos are structured. You could do something like set down a green sheet and call it grass, and suggest that the legos stay on the sheet, and it might be as simple as that (and then cleanup is easy!). Sometimes just setting things out in a certain way or suggesting a parameter is enough, and the kid will go along with it. If he doesn't, then you can discuss, but I make a lot of decisions assuming that my kid would be okay with them and knowing that if she disagees, she'll let me know. The younger she was, the more decisions fell into that category, because her world was pretty small then. I tried to take what I knew about her personality into account - I would find clothes that were comfy and in colors she liked and that was usually okay (not now, though!), but I would talk to her about what clothes she wanted to wear on a particular day, for instance.

Heavenly - I'm wondering what you see as the goals of our "consequences". Do they work for you? Do your children ever do something again once they' been punished for it? How does punishing your children affect your relationship with them - how do they respond?

Dar


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dar_
*Sometimes just setting things out in a certain way or suggesting a parameter is enough, and the kid will go along with it. If he doesn't, then you can discuss, but I make a lot of decisions assuming that my kid would be okay with them and knowing that if she disagees, she'll let me know. The younger she was, the more decisions fell into that category, because her world was pretty small then. I tried to take what I knew about her personality into account - I would find clothes that were comfy and in colors she liked and that was usually okay (not now, though!), but I would talk to her about what clothes she wanted to wear on a particular day, for instance.*
Thanks, Dar - it's all much more clear now


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## DeChRi (Apr 19, 2002)

I think in terms of having to discuss everything, that is not necessarily the case. Since my parents were always willing to discuss, negotiate, listen to my points, treat my feelings about things valid, etc, then when they did just "put their foot down" or something (which was rare), I tended to just go with it and respect their decision. I think this worked because I felt like they trusted my judgment, feelings, etc so much, that when they just said no, or whatever, I just figured they had a good reason for it. I knew they were not doing it to just shut me up, becasue they always spent so much time working with me. Does that make any sense? I think it goes both ways in terms of really hearing and repsecting each other, because not only will your kids get more thoughtful consideration from you, but you will get it from your kids, as they will trust your confidence in them, and return with confidence in you.

Joanna

PS. Just wanted to add that this thread it a bit of a revelation for me, as I never realized I was parented this way (with no punishment), until now. I mean, I knew I never remembered getting in trouble, but never realized people were striving to parent this way. I just figured my folks were just like this. Then again, I never realized that most kids didn't sleep with their folks and nurse till age 4, until I had dd and realized I was not the norm.







Ahhh sweet ignorance...


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I guess my feelings also come from an "end result." One of my good friends at work and I often discuss parenting issues. She is trying to raise her kids like Dar and tells me she was raised that way.

She is basically a nice person, but she really does not seem to understand the way the world works and I think this is the reason she is often unhappy and frustrated. She does not understand that you HAVE to say you are sorry to a client even if it was not your fault and you are not really sorry.

She is often shocked at the rules and consequences set up the company. She spends useless hours trying to negotiate these rules not understanding that they are not negotiable and then get upset and frustrated.

I just don't want my kids to turn out like this.


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## DeChRi (Apr 19, 2002)

I guess the perspective I have is a little different. For me, because my parents allowed me to put myself out there in the "real world", I figured out how it worked out an early age. I think there is a misconception that be negotiating with your child you are "letting them get their way", and then the assumption that the feeling of needing to get their way will carry out to the "real world". (This is not really directed at you alexa, but more thinking of my dh, who is mr. authoritarian, and we debate this all the time). In my personal experience, because we talked about things and worked out happy mediums, I was given more freedom and choices by my folks. And because I was given more choices, I will admit, I made bad ones. But my parents let me fall on my face a few time, and learn on my own. I think there has to be trade off.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

So many great posts!!

It's true, I have NO idea what it's like to have a 2 year old. This is why I'm eager to hear all the POV's here. I can see that the type of negotiation I talked about earlier might not work that way with a young toddler. Good suggestions, Dar.

Alexa, that's an interesting point. I have to say when I read it, however, it sits badly with me. And I think it's because, rightly or wrongly, it reminds me of people who use that excuse as a justification for not responding to their babies needs when they are young (and I'm quite sure that's not what you meant, it's just a knee-jerk reaction in me before I really process what you're saying, kwim?).

For example, people who say that if you pick your baby up whenever they cry (or if you sling them all the time) that you are teaching them "the world revolves around you, you will always get what you want, etc." and then they argue that since the "real world" is not like that, you're doing your baby a disservice. Now I have always felt that a child has plenty of time to discover how cold, unfair, and dictatorial the "real world" can be, and that it's my job as a parent to give them a haven of trust, fairness, and love to "arm" them, so to speak, with the confidence to deal with the real world.

OTOH, as an academic, I have always felt that taking exams and getting grades were an appropriate way to teach children, because in the real world that is how it works. Now that I'm researching homeschooling, I'm wondering if that need be the case? So I can relate to what you are saying in that context, too. I have not decided yet, lol, but I thank you for the perspective!


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Piglet,

I always enjoy reading your posts. I definitely don't beleive in being harsh or cruel, just because the "real world" can be. The way I see it is that it is really bad that the world is harsh and cruel and thus I definitely want to provide a better experience for my kids at home. (You know that I don't feel that the crying I allowed my kids to do was harsh or cruel and that's a whole nother post LOL!)

As for rules and consequences, I do not believe, personally, that these are a "really bad thing" I believe that we have them in the world because it helps the world function more effectively and help people get along better. I want to prepare my children for these things at home because I feel that they are a "valuable" part of the realy world.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Rain is really active in community theater - I think she's been either rehearsing or performing one show or another without a break since last summer, except maybe a month in December. She also ushers at a lot of shows (ones she's not in), ran the spotlight for a show, amd house managed a couple of shows (coordinated the ushers, set up and sold concessions, counted tickets and money, etc). When she's in a show, she rehearses either 4 or 5 times a week, and while at home she practices her lines, music, dances, etc. In the show she's doing now, most of the other actors are adults (she plays Young Kim in Showboat there are a few other kids in the emsemble but mostly it's adults) and she holds her own and then some. She works on her lines, dances, and music, helps with set building and moving, and generally pulls her weight.

Can you tell I'm proud of her?







And this is all in her hands - I drive her, but other than that she's on her own. I actually got a small part in this show - it's my first time on stage in 20 years - and she's helped out me a lot.

Just some real-world stuff. The real world has real consequeces, not punishments imposed by others, and in the real world you can chose to participate or not. Actors who do a bad job, or are flaky, generally don't get cast again. Rain knows that, and seems fine with it.

Dar


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

I'm a little late in joining this thread, but I wanted to let you all know how much I've enjoyed the analysis.

Dar, I think you've done a fabulous job of explaining how even parent-imposed consequences can undermine children's motivation. One thing that helps me understand this perspective is to remember that people WANT to do the right thing -- NONE of us mess up on purpose . . . that is, unless you've experienced a loss of your own decision-making power about what's right and what is not, and then I think anything is fair game. And this is what is scary to parents who have a pattern of controlling their children's actions . . . 'Cause if they were to suddenly set their children "free", their children almost certainly would go a little wild with the freedom and make some bad choices.

But in the cases where children are included in family decisions (such as in Dar and Jojo's families), children seem to respect that their parents are indeed looking out for their best interests, and generally seem to approach the world more gently while coming to their parents often for advice and guidance. (My own child is still very young, but I have ~20 yrs of experience working with children, and this has been my observation.)

(If anyone wants to delve into this more deeply, William Glasser is the father of Control Theory, and his writings and those of his students are *fascinating*. VERY applicable to teaching, Piglet -- that's where I was introduced tho them. Perry Good is also a fabulous writer on the subject of childrearing in a non-coercive manner.)

Dh and I recently talked thru a hypothetical problem where our ds (now 20 mos!) one day accidentally throws a lacrosse ball thru a window.
Dh said he thought it would be fair to make ds pay for the window. But my reaction was that this is a little harsh, given that this is the first window-breaking incident, and that instead we should realize that *breaking the window* is the consequence -- I mean, what child WANTS to break a window?!? (I've worked with disturbed children, I know there are some, but sticking to healthy, functional families for the sake of argument!)

I imagine that my ds would be VERY upset in this case, and would need hugs -- not "How could you's?!?" -- like in the fender-bender story. He would need us to help him get over the incident, and we could calmly have the window fixed without subjecting him to further guilt. (including him in some of the arrangements, so he could see what goes into fixing a window)

"What if it happened again" dh asked me.

I would think that then you would want to talk with the child about what is happening that is causing this problem. This would call for some problem solving. "Hmm. This is the second time -- wonder why? What are we going to do now? Fixing windows is expensive." and so on.

I can hear people right now jumping and down on their keyboards to tell me I'm naive and letting my child off the hook, so I guess it all comes down to a matter of faith . . . That I believe that if I continue to treat my child with respect, and to always give him the benefit of the doubt, to EXPECT that he cares about his safety/our home/the feelings and needs of others, that he will turn out to be a responsible, honest, and gentle citizen.

This is what dh and I hope for, and I am SOOOOO encouraged to hear of at least 2 families where this approach has worked so beautifully! Thank you for inspiring me!


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

After reading JoJo's post, I realized that "Wow, I don't remember being punished either" In fact, I can't recall, even one incident of punishment. My older brother was punished, but the rest of us weren't.

In my family we were raised very religiously with strong Catholic values regarding sex, partying, honest, cheating, lying etc.

And, with the exception of my older brother who was punished, the rest of the children (5 children total) have kept those same values through teenagerhood and into adulthood. I share the same values with my parents which they instilled in my, as do the rest of my sibilings (except for older bro).

My point is, by always respecting us and listening to us etc and not punishing us when we were little,we accepted and embraces the family values (the big things) as adults. I honestly never had any desire to do any "rebellious teenager things"

I think because my parents respected us when it came to small things, we respected them when it came to big, important things.

I realize not everyone on this boards shared my same values and ideas, but whatever your famlies values and ideas are, I think by respecting and not punishing your children they will respect you and your values more.

And, I always say, "I am not raising a child, I am raising a child who will be an adult someday, so what I do now is not for my convience but for their health and well-being both now and as adults"


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*I would think that then you would want to talk with the child about what is happening that is causing this problem. This would call for some problem solving. "Hmm. This is the second time -- wonder why? What are we going to do now? Fixing windows is expensive." and so on.*
See, I think this would be my approach the first time around. It involves the child more than the scenario you proposed in the first incident - encourages him to participate in solving the problem without punishment.



*Quote:*

I can hear people right now jumping and down on their keyboards to tell me I'm naive and letting my child off the hook, so I guess it all comes down to a matter of faith . . . That I believe that if I continue to treat my child with respect, and to always give him the benefit of the doubt, to EXPECT that he cares about his safety/our home/the feelings and needs of others, that he will turn out to be a responsible, honest, and gentle citizen.
I completely agree, but do think that the first scenario you proposed would be 'letting your child off the hook' (though that particular phrase bothers me, for some reason). Certainly your child will be upset the first time he breaks a window, but that doesn't mean that he needs only sympathy and no real learning experience. IMO, finding learning in emotional upset is an exceedingly valuable experience. I would certainly empathize with my child and support him emotionally, but I would also allow him to own the situation and act as the brains and driving force behind the solution.

This is what dh and I hope for, and I am SOOOOO encouraged to hear of at least 2 families where this approach has worked so beautifully! Thank you for inspiring me! [/B][/QUOTE]


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

DD once broke a glass.

She was mortified.

"Stand absolutly still!"

She did. We cleaned up. She helped wipe up where there was no glass. She helped buy more juice. A new glass etc.

1) Safety
2) Reassurance
3) help with the fix.

Now both kids come and inform us of the slightest mishap. DD1 also comes and reports on the mishap & the fix!

Love works every time.

a


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Dragonfly, ITA. I didn't mean to imply that we would just hug ds and then send him off to play while we fixed the problem -- when I said we would "include him in some of the arrangements", that's where we would involve him in the problem solving and repair. I think that kind of inclusion is what differentiates loving, non-coercive discipline from permissiveness. Thanks for helping me clarify that.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Sorry folks,
I've been AWOL.

I've been thinking alot about this and I think my initial approach will be a mix with as little punishment as possible.

The biggest thing to me is to teach my children how to deal with the world so they don't put themselves into a position to have trouble. Lying is a biggie with some kids and I think we can teach Goo and any other kids we have not to lie without punishments. I would not expect to never raise my voice, but I do expect that I will apologize when that happens (hey, I'm hunman, I will lose my temper).

So far, I've learned that teaching Goo what is off-limits and what is ok and redirecting her from an off-limits to an ok has helped her learn the safe zones of the house. We still don't have cabinet locks on since she won't touch the cabinets that are "off-limits". We simply tell her, pick her up, redirect her and that's it. Sometimes, we'll let her see what the big deal is (she loves the dishwasher and wants to climb on it, so we let her look at it, but I won't let her climb in)...

I think I am babbling. Anyway, I am reading and learning....Isn't life just learning anyway?


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

OK- Dar, I need help here.

I finally remember what was bothering me with your analogy of punishing your partner.

The problem to me is that we live in a society where there are punishments pre-determined by society. For example, if you steal from someone, you will be punished (a fine, jail time, retribution, etc) by the justice system. It is well known that there is a punishment for this crime and it is expected that you will serve this punishment if you are found guilty of the crime.

Now let's look at the bike example again.
Let's say the family has discussed that a) there are limits on where to ride the bike and the family decided on the limits together
b) there is a standing rule of coming home late is ok IF you let the parents know (and again with an understanding that this rule was decided upon together)
c) the punishment or consequence for the violation of these agreements is also agreed upon.

If all of these things are discussed and agreed upon, is punishment wrong? The concsequences were agreed upon in this case. One family member failed to live up to their expectated role.

Now, I can see the argument coming that the kids don't punish the parents, but that is often true because the household rules that are set up are often what an experienced adult would consider reasonable.

If an adult stole something, we would not hesitate to punish them through the justice system. If a child stole something, we would also expect to have some form of consequence/punishment to deal with the crime....

This is the real sticking point I have with no punishment. We as a society have this contract with one another...why should is not extend into the home?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Well, to start with, I don't think punishment work very well at a societal level. I break laws all the time, like speeding, because I think I can get away with it. And I do, almost always. So, fear of punishment doesn't keep me down to 70 mph. The laws that I do follow, I generally follow because they agree with my morals, not because I'm worried about punishment. Would you go out and steal if you knew you wouldn't be punished for it? I've lived in states where the I didn't comply with homeschooling laws because I thought they were immoral.

And for people who do break laws, the punishments inflicted by our society generally work very poorly at preventing them from committing the same crimes again and again. Recidivism for most convicted criminals is quite high, because punishment - prison - doesn't teach people the skills they need to live differently, it just pisses them off so they go out not only poorly equipped to deal with the world but also wanting revenge.

Good citizens in a society are those who do the right thing because they are internally motivated to do so, not because they are scared not to.

Milgram's Obedience to Authority is a great book to read, to go a little further along this path. Kohlberg's work on moral development is also good....

Of course, this begs the question of why our criminal justice system is so punishment-based, and I think think the answers are realted to our puritan history, our reluctance to spend he money and time it would take, and the fact that we just don't care much about these people who commit crimes.

Dar, wandering off the subject...


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

I already answerd this in this thread!

Quote:

... not you need to point out how wrong they were and make them pay for the mistake (yes this is how speeding tickets work, but it is not how my family works, our home is a haven from the problems in the world. Besides, I am not arguing that punishments aren't all around us, I am arguing that they don't really work. I have a brother who is always getting tickets or his liscence taken away, and though he may slow down around cops, he still says that a liscence is just an excuse to speed and really does not understand why a person doesn't (I don't speed, because I want to keep myself and my family safe, not because I might get fined.)
Just like in the "real world", there is probably going to be someone some day who doesn't stop touching, pushing, even ticlking as soon as they stay stop. But when we are playing as soon as they stay stop- I stop. Because I don't think they have to learn what to do when someone doesn't, that is a response built into two year olds








But because I want them to learn that people you trust and want to be around (like the people in our family) listen to you.

Like piglet said

Quote:

Now I have always felt that a child has plenty of time to discover how cold, unfair, and dictatorial the "real world" can be, and that it's my job as a parent to give them a haven of trust, fairness, and love to "arm" them, so to speak, with the confidence to deal with the real world.

Quote:

She is basically a nice person, but she really does not seem to understand the way the world works and I think this is the reason she is often unhappy and frustrated. She does not understand that you HAVE to say you are sorry to a client even if it was not your fault and you are not really sorry.
She is often shocked at the rules and consequences set up the company. She spends useless hours trying to negotiate these rules not understanding that they are not negotiable and then get upset and frustrated.
alexa07 I just don't understand this







: I have worked at jobs where it helped to tell someone that I was sorry for something that I didn't do, but never at a time that I couldn't truthfully say that I was sorry about the situation. I also don't understand how something could not be negotiable? Either something just is, and there is no need to have regulations about it, or there are ways to change it. Of course I also understand that a person who owns a company can make any rules she wants to, but if I really don't like them, I understand I can find a new job. I still believe I am giving my children the best way to get what they need in life. If this means negotiating rules, or finding something else.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Thanks for more food for thought.

Mallory,

Forgive me for not seeing your reply!








I'm trying to cath up on these posts as much as possible and I went too quickly!

I really appreciate your thoughts.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mallory_
*

alexa07 I just don't understand this







: I have worked at jobs where it helped to tell someone that I was sorry for something that I didn't do, but never at a time that I couldn't truthfully say that I was sorry about the situation.*

When people are paying tens of thousands of dollars for your services, it helps, even if you don't feel it, THEY need to hear it. That is just the way it is.


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