# Someone offered me the Pearl's book today



## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

I am SOOOO sad about this. I was at a LLL (!!!) meeting tonight, talking with a mom who I thought I had kind of "clicked" with, and I mentioned that I had joined an AP group in a town an hour away because I was desperate to talk with others about things like discipline. . . and she said "Oh, would you be interested in a copy of . . ." and my ds started yelling for me so I went and took care of him and came back and asked her to repeat herself. She said "Child Training (or something) by so and so *Pearl."* Now I try not to be an abrasive person and I try to be accepting, but I was so shocked, and kind of angry too, and I very seriously said "Absolutely not". She looked kind of surprised and I said "Aren't those the people who advocate using PVC piping to spank your children?" and she said "Well, I know they say to use a switch". And I said "Children have been killed because people follow their advice" and she said "Yeah, I guess if you take it too far, but I don't think it's okay to spank when you're angry". I tried to explain what I do instead of punishing (figure out the need, address the need, teach so ds will know what to do the next time the situation arises) and she aggreed and said that her parents did that but spanked them first (obviously missing the part that I said about not _needing_ to punish). She said spanking is Biblical, I brought up the whole "God doesn't punish us anymore because Jesus paid for all of our sins and that applies to children too" and she said something about how we need to live in fear and reverence of God and should have those same feelings towards our parents, and I said that love and fear are opposite feelings and you have to decide how you want your children to feel towards you, and then another mom came in and said she wants her ds to fear her sometimes like when they're in the parking lot and he's trying to run away and she has to get his attention so she spanks him. . . and then ds started yelling for me again and I just couldn't go back. Granted, it doesn't look good for my method of discipline when ds is yelling for me and running around kinda crazy with the other kids -but the meeting is at 6:30, normal bedtime is 7, and there were lots of cookies tonight, things we rarely have at home, so add together a tired kid, plus sugar, high fructose corn syrup, some red dye- actually I think he managed himself quite well!

Thankfully the mom who suggested the book only has a 5 month old, so maybe there is a chance to change her mind somewhat. I had been talking with the leader about doing a meeting where we talk about discipline and she put it on the schedule for an upcoming month, but now I'm really worried about how it will go. I know the leader used to spank her now teenagers, and I already feel like I'm the only person in this town that doesn't spank (which is why I joined the AP group). I have been talking a lot with a parent educator in town and she thankfully is against spanking and more along the lines of gentle discipline, although I think she does teach to use timeouts and rewards and the like. I wonder if she could be a guest speaker at that meeting. . . I just don't feel like I know enough, like I'm secure enough in my own gentle parenting (I still yell WAY too much and will move ds roughly at times, although I AM getting much better at that) to be an example and argue the gd way.

I guess it also upsets me that I had *no idea* this mom could feel that way, I kinda thought she might be a kindred spirit but I was so wrong. I left the meeting feeling that my heart hurt, I actually understand that phrase now









Thanks for listening. I thought out of anyone, you guys would understand.


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm sorry that you were offered the book, but I'm applauding the way you handled it. That was awesome. A meeker woman would have said "no thanks" and not explained why those books can be so damaging. I hope you reached her.


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## ollineeba (Apr 12, 2005)

That is really sad.. but I think you handled yourself wonderfully (as best you could with a little one calling for you







) and it sounds like maybe you gave her something to think about.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I liked your response to her! I am usually just so shocked by stuff like that that I don't say anything smart.

Also, what kind of LLL meeting was this??!!?!?! Cookies??Fruit punch?? Spanking?? I'm in California and at our meeting it's all about organic fruit, organic veggies and whole wheat but never junk food.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

That's tough to get that from another mom who seemed like a kindred spirit, at LLL of all places. I know women probably go just for BF help, but the org is gentle/AP focused and tends to attract that type. I'm sorry, mama! I think you made some good comments right off the cuff very well!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I woulda said "thanks! I could use this as kindling" accepted it, and acctually used it as kindling.

Nothing wrong with a nice toasty fire on a cold winter night.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I concur that you handled it gracefully. Hopefully, you planted a seed and this woman will not use plumbing supply lines (or anything else) to hit her child.

I can also imagine how disheartening this experience must have been for you. I am always completely shocked to meet fellow AP parents (with whom I feel a bond) and to later discover that they hit their children. Violence and AP







: -- such a huge disconnect that I am usually too befuddled to even respond. So I think you did a great job.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks so much mamas, I needed that support. Actually, your comments have helped me realize just how far I've come in the past year! I used to totally clam up and get red in the face and not know what to say when something happened, but I've been doing lots of emotional energy work and I guess it really has paid off! Yeah!

mama2mygirl- we live in what's considered to be Appalacha. Tonight was a "carry in". We brought chicken and whole wheat pumpkin muffins, but there were definately people who brought storebought cookies, pies, candy canes







: (ds is obsessed with candy canes now unfortunately, darn sugar infused holidays). Makes me wish I had actually joined LLL back when we were in CA but back then I though people in LLL were a bunch of crazies who nursed their kids until they were 6.







:

All this after a boy at the park today told ds that his mama was going to spank him if he pooped in his pants (ds was kinda gassy today, probably because of the weird sugary food people keep giving him when we visit) and ds freaked out. I got to tell a 6 yr old boy that no one in our family hit anyone else, the grownups never hit the children, and if ds needed to toot that was okay as long as he said "excuse me" afterwards. The adult he was with was about 100 ft away, and I hope he heard, because the kid definately sounded like he was just repeating things he had been told.







:

What a day!!!


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Oh, and Pandora114, I like your sig. Ds is Westley, hence my screenname "Oh, _my sweet_ _W_estley! Ogh, ugh, oo. . . and other random rolling down a hill noises"







. Have you read the book? I really like it too!


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

Someone told YOUR son that YOU were going to spank him??







:

Does it ever end?!?

OT, and this wasn't even directed to me, but I LOVED the Princess Bride (the book). We watched the movie a few nights ago and since then, I've been trying to find my copy so I can read it again. I must have been driving DH crazy with my little comments throughout the movie. "In the book, Humperdink has a huge hunting complex with crazy animals in it." "In the book, Buttercup is portrayed as being pretty dumb." "In the book, the fire swamp is different."


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Oh that's horrible, I'm so sorry this person turned out not to be such a kindred spirit after all.







Great responses though - you should be very proud of yourself!


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## Gracefulmom (Apr 25, 2002)

I think you handled yourself well.

And may I recommend not ignoring the "bond" you've felt with this mom? It sounds like she may be open to what you have to say... and you sound like you'll be a GREAT mentor! You've come a long way on the GD path... maybe she'd like to join you.









(I know _I_ never would have come around to GD if no one had "rocked the boat" for me! I'm forever grateful to everyone who has challenged my old ways of thinking.)


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nova22* 
Someone told YOUR son that YOU were going to spank him??







:

Does it ever end?!?

OT, and this wasn't even directed to me, but I LOVED the Princess Bride (the book). We watched the movie a few nights ago and since then, I've been trying to find my copy so I can read it again. I must have been driving DH crazy with my little comments throughout the movie. "In the book, Humperdink has a huge hunting complex with crazy animals in it." "In the book, Buttercup is portrayed as being pretty dumb." "In the book, the fire swamp is different."









Yep, told him I was going to spank him- poor kid, I know he's still having trouble with the fact that he saw his music teacher spanking her dd, and he hears her threaten it (though thankfully she seems to be threatening it less and taking care of the need more







). After he saw that he kept asking why she did it and I told him because her dd wasn't listening and some grownups just don't know how to help their children listen better so they hit them instead. He kept obsessing over it, got a bad cough that just *happened* to start the next time we saw them- it finally occurred to me that he was afraid his teacher was going to spank _him_ when _he_ didn't listen (which happens frequently in class







). We talked about it and I think he felt a little better, he seems like he is trusting her again and the cough is gone, but I don't think he has totally moved past it. And then this kid tells him *I'm* gonna spank him. . .*sigh*

And I'm glad you liked the book too. I don't know very many people who have actually read it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gracefulmom* 
And may I recommend not ignoring the "bond" you've felt with this mom? It sounds like she may be open to what you have to say... and you sound like you'll be a GREAT mentor! You've come a long way on the GD path... maybe she'd like to join you.









(I know _I_ never would have come around to GD if no one had "rocked the boat" for me! I'm forever grateful to everyone who has challenged my old ways of thinking.)

Thanks for this reminder. I think we left the meeting well, she came over and said goodbye before she left and I asked her if she was coming to the next meeting, so maybe all is not lost. I don't know how well I'd do as a mentor because I'm still learning so much, but I do make it a point to share what I have learned with others who have kids around the same age. I'm always recommending books! Thanks for saying that you needed others to "rock the boat" for you, I'm guessing they did it without being pushy? Anything they said or did that really made an impact but didn't offend you at the same time?

Thanks again!


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

WOW! You had quite a conversation!!







You're awesome, and really held your own w/ that other mom. I'm sure you gave her a lot to think about. And no, 5m is not too young to be Pearl-ized.... Let's hope she's not "swatting" her baby for being "whiney".....


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## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
I woulda said "thanks! I could use this as kindling" accepted it, and acctually used it as kindling.

Nothing wrong with a nice toasty fire on a cold winter night.

LOL


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## katiedidbug (Dec 16, 2006)

It is weird to get responses like that at an LLL meeting. Usually people are like-minded in AP-type approaches to parenting. However, I always have to remind myself that that's not why I'm there. LLL is primarily for breastfeeding. Though I'm very AP, I think it's cool when more mainstream types come to our meetings; those are the people who need to get out there and breastfeed more than anything, KWIM??
However, I am weirded out when I hear some people's ways of doing things that aren't very AP-like.
And this is very bizarre that they had cookies and such at an LLL meeting. Not cool.


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

OMG! I had never heard of these Pearl books until this thread so googled it and I am still in shock from reading some of their website. Truly disgusting stuff.


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## somanythings (Jul 9, 2005)

https://www.cafepress.com/ttuac.94683940

These cards have a lot of good ways to refute the Pearls' teachings with Scripture. The top ones are quotes from Pearl materials, the bottom are Scriptures that reveal the truth of how God wants us to treat others, including our kids.


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

OMG - that is some truly horrid abuse! You should be so proud of yourself for telling that woman how you felt so diplomatically!!!!

People actually follow this advice?????? I'm glad I'm living in Sweden right now where it is ILLEGAL to hit your children.

I have a friend who was, what I would consider Christian Crunchy like me, (unmedicated birth with a doula, breastfeeding, met her at a LLL meeting)but she did follow Babywise at first. Well, she changed her tune when her infant daughter started crying everytime she was picked up. Then she became an anti-Ezzo advocate, and she would tell her story at LLL meetings.

I hope you become a catalyst for this woman to change!

-H


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks so much for the replies! We've been traveling and I haven't been able to get online like I wanted. . .

Anyway, thank you somanythings for the notecard link, I just may order some!

And I realized after reading amitymama's reply that I had never actually looked into their website, just read links to news stories while lurking here, so I searched. OMG I was livid and so upset to read about starting as soon as a baby can roll to put something enticing within reach, say no, and then when they pick it up switch their hand!!! (I am so glad I didn't know this when I talked to her or I would not have been able to be so diplomatic!) I kept thinking, what planet is this okay on? Who would think this would be actually good for their kids? I know dh got sick of hearing me talk to friends on the phone trying to figure this out, I was just fuming, and thinking that this mom might be doing it to her precious little boy right now. . . ugh!!! It finally dawned on me, though. I kept thinking, I want my kids to grow up with their wills intact, so when they're faced with something they can make a decision for themself instead of just automatically following an authority figure! I mean, kids raised this way just follow their parents and can't make decisions for themselves, they can't think for themselves! What happens when they're adults and have to make decisions for their own kids. . . oh wait, then they follow this nut because of the fear of being bad parents or them or their kids going to h*ll- and after I realized that I was able to be a bit more compassionate. Absolutely NOT tolerant by any means, but it helps knowing where someone else is coming from if you are going to try to influence them in any way.

So I'm still not for sure what I'm going to do exactly, but the fact that she has decided against vaxes says something for her decision making ability. Hopefully she will continue to come to meetings. If my house was cleaner I could invite her over. . .

Thanks again for all the support, I really appreciate it so much!


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## seawillow (Jan 2, 2007)

I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls. Your input may not change this mom's mind, but if you can bring yourself to continue to stay in contact, you at least have a chance to provide her with a different perspective. I know the Pearls don't fit all the many definitions of a cult, but they do have some cult-like aspects, in my opinion: 1) They discourage parents from associating with friends, family, fellow church members, etc. who don't share the exact right views of childrearing (and to the Pearls, the only right way is the Pearl way) 2) The Pearls seem to regard themselves as having special knowledge (in one article Michael says he is more a preacher or prophet (!) than a teacher; his daughter writes an Internet blog in which she records her dreams, some quite violent, which she says may be prophecies) 3) Lack of accountability -- has anyone ever seen a financial accounting of their ministry, like those published by many reputable charities? Why have they and their children over the years used this supposedly nonprofit ministry to promote and sell for-profit herbal products? Why are they selling distributorships of their parenting materials if they are a nonprofit? Who is on the "board" they claim is overseeing their ministry? 4) They demonize those who disagree with them, refusing to acknowledge that there could be any middle ground between complete permissiveness and whipping infants and young children with pvc pipes, paddles, belts, etc. 5) They write about issues where they have no training or expertise, including serious medical and mental health issues, domestic abuse, etc. This is frightening given that they show so little humility or allowance that they might not have all the answers on some issues. And thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic. I felt so alone when I first confronted the Pearls' teachings, but I feel more encouraged now to keep speaking out about them.


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## AidansMommy1012 (Jan 9, 2006)

Wow. Found the book she recommended to you on Amazon and read some reviews. It's really saying something when the AP/gentle parents and the mainstreamers are all vomiting in unison.

These people sound like real pieces of work. Really wouldn't mind running into them in a dark alley. (It isn't advocating hitting when you're saving millions of kids, is it? Maybe I'd just have to talk them to death....)


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidansMommy1012* 
Wow. Found the book she recommended to you on Amazon and read some reviews. It's really saying something when the AP/gentle parents and the mainstreamers are all vomiting in unison.

These people sound like real pieces of work. Really wouldn't mind running into them in a dark alley. (It isn't advocating hitting when you're saving millions of kids, is it? Maybe I'd just have to talk them to death....)

Yeah, I'm not ap, but I can't stand the Pearls. I read some stuff on their website, and it just really upset me. This woman was bragging that her kid didn't bother her when she was visiting, even when she fell off a rocking horse and got a knot on her head. I wanted to give that woman a knot on her head....


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Yeah, I'm not ap, but I can't stand the Pearls.


I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.










Originally, a fiend of mine stumbld upon this board, and wasn't treated well. I came to check it out, posted a few times & left. Then anoterh thread I heard about brought me back.

I don't vax, and am not sure if I ever will, so that interests me. I"m also interesting in babywearing, and heard the moms here really know theri stuff on that. I also did demand feeding with my baby. There isn't really any help here as I was unable to breastfeed, and am past that stage, but it was of interest.

I had also hoped to co-sleepm (well, at least part of the time) once my daughter was old enough to get off my bed safely, but that isn't for her.

I don't disagree with all asopects of ap, just some, and the judgmentalness I've seen. Not by everyone, but by enough.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawillow* 
I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.










You can be into NFL and not be fully AP.


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## rainymorning (Jan 5, 2007)

this is so odd that someone with a 5 months old would have a book by the pearls in her purse, and would even talk about discipline to those with older kids. it feels like she was on a mission to promote them!







:

great response, mama!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

angelcat,

Thank you for clarifying







As far as judgementalness goes, I'm sorry to hear you've felt judged here.

In an effort to keep this thread about the OP, I'd ask that any further questions or comments for angelcat be taken to PM.

Thanks, everyone


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

You might want to look into LLL's policy about gentle discipline called "loving Guidance." I don't think it was necessarily appropriate for the leader to tell you she used to spank unless she said she never does it anymore or unless it was outside the meeting. You might want to look at the website and consider acting on that.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...pOct94p69.html

And I would suggest leting go of worrying that your kid being wild supposedly negates the value of AP. To me AP is about unconditional love and guiding kids gently whether they are perfect or not. AP is not about creating perfect children.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
I woulda said "thanks! I could use this as kindling" accepted it, and acctually used it as kindling.

Nothing wrong with a nice toasty fire on a cold winter night.

I was going to say the same thing!

It's snowing here. . .


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I edited my post up above (number 30) so please read it again


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Thank you for your response, angelcat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
I don't disagree with all asopects of ap, just some, and the judgmentalness I've seen. Not by everyone, but by enough.

Please don't confuse AP with message board antics. AP has nothing to do with that. Probably every message board that exists has its whacky moments including members coming across as "judgmental", including but not exclusively MDC.

To the OP, mysweetw&e, how sad & shocking, especially at an LLL meeting. You would hope to go to LLL and be immune to that sort of thing. Wow!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawillow*
I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls.

Oh my, that is heart breaking.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawillow* 
I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls. Your input may not change this mom's mind, but if you can bring yourself to continue to stay in contact, you at least have a chance to provide her with a different perspective. I know the Pearls don't fit all the many definitions of a cult, but they do have some cult-like aspects, in my opinion:

Thank you SO much for replying, and huge (((HUGS))). It must be so heartbreaking to watch her do this to her own child. How is it that she hasn't stopped associating with you, even though you don't agree? Have you seen anything you have done make a difference (and even a little "aha" moment that isn't acted on could make a difference). Does she do it in front of other people? My concern with this is, were I to invite her to my house I would be very afraid that she might hit her son, at which point I know my son would lose it and would very likely be traumatized for a long time. That's just not something I'm willing to risk. I tried talking with her on the phone (before I knew about the Pearl thing) and unfortunately she called in the middle of a jumping-on-the-bed marathon, so of course my kids were trying to get my attention the whole time and I had to cut it short. Do you just stay close and model a different way or do you actually talk about discipline in general, or what she is doing in particular?

It's nice to be able to talk to someone in the thick of it, although I really wish this wasn't something you had to deal with. I also appreciate the other info on the Pearls, those were things I didn't know.

(((HUGS))) again!


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice* 
You might want to look into LLL's policy about gentle discipline called "loving Guidance." I don't think it was necessarily appropriate for the leader to tell you she used to spank unless she said she never does it anymore or unless it was outside the meeting. You might want to look at the website and consider acting on that.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...pOct94p69.html

Thank you very much for the link, it really helped! The leader and I have talked about this stuff alot outside of meetings, and it was my idea to talk about discipline at a meeting because I feel like I don't have anyone else IRL to talk to (and thought others might feel the same) and _surely_ I would find like-minded mamas at LLL. Sigh. She did say that she stopped spanking because it didn't work, and now sticks to more rewards/punishments (which I personally stay away from but they're better than spanking!) But she had a very rough road with at least one son with intense ADHD and I think she has done amazingly with him, so obviously I'm not saying that what she has done was wrong, just different. Which is one of the things that article was getting at!

I was thinking of letting the leader borrow _Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline_ so we would be on the same page, and then talk about focusing on what you want and choices at the meeting. But maybe it would be better to explain that all behaviors are an attempt to meet a need and that you need to teach the child how to meet the need to stop the behavior. Hmm, I don't know. And I can't really LEAD the meeting. . . And maybe as a group job for me I could review approved gentle discipline books (that I'm reading anyway) and maybe that would help give people a different perspective.

I plan on meeting with people from the AP group an hour away at least a few times before the meeting, so at least I'll have had MY cup filled before the meeting so I'm not disappointed if I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall during it.

Thanks again!


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## seawillow (Jan 2, 2007)

mysweetw&e;6935064 said:


> Thank you SO much for replying, and huge (((HUGS))). It must be so heartbreaking to watch her do this to her own child. How is it that she hasn't stopped associating with you, even though you don't agree? Have you seen anything you have done make a difference (and even a little "aha" moment that isn't acted on could make a difference). Does she do it in front of other people?
> 
> (((HUGS))) back to you. To answer your questions, I guess my situation is different, because I'm a relative. The relatives and friends who don't agree actually have been threatened by the dad many times with being cut off from contact, and church friendships with those who disagreed were ended. With the relatives, there was enough of a close family connection already existing with the mom that we haven't been totally cut out of their lives. If it was up to the dad I think we would have been, but on this issue the mom seems to have stood up to the dad. For the most part the dad is the one in control, he's the one who decided to follow Pearls, homeschool, how many kids to have, etc. and the mom (who is my relative) believes that she must totally submit. They used to physically punish in front of family but have stopped around those they know don't agree. I feel for you because if it was someone where I was not already extremely emotionally attached to the children, I might be tempted to just avoid the situation, especially if my child was still young enough that I needed to protect her. In your situation, maybe you can try discussion or giving alternative information, and just see how she reacts. In our case, there's a group of relatives and church friends who did various things like that over the years. Sometimes giving the mom alternative parenting materials or carefully suggesting ways to discipline less harshly, modeling different behavior with our own children, maintaining as close and positive a relationship with the mom and kids as the father will permit. At one point the authorities actually did get involved when a real injury occurred, but even that didn't turn the father away from following the Pearls. Eventually they did stop some of the harshest physical punishments, whether what any of us did caused that, or fear of getting caught by authorities again, I'm not sure. I like to think we've had some positive impact. I still worry about the long term effects on the kids, but try to stay as close to them as I'm permitted to be, in hopes having another caring adult in their lives can make some difference, however small. I hope that you don't feel bad, whatever you decide to do. The fact that you care and want to help is commendable. My thoughts and prayers are with you!


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawillow* 
For the most part the dad is the one in control, he's the one who decided to follow Pearls, homeschool, how many kids to have, etc. and the mom (who is my relative) believes that she must totally submit. They used to physically punish in front of family but have stopped around those they know don't agree. I feel for you because if it was someone where I was not already extremely emotionally attached to the children, I might be tempted to just avoid the situation, especially if my child was still young enough that I needed to protect her. In your situation, maybe you can try discussion or giving alternative information, and just see how she reacts. In our case, there's a group of relatives and church friends who did various things like that over the years. Sometimes giving the mom alternative parenting materials or carefully suggesting ways to discipline less harshly, modeling different behavior with our own children, maintaining as close and positive a relationship with the mom and kids as the father will permit.

Thanks again! The possibility of the wife submitting to the husband thing was something my mom had brought up, I've never seen her husband so I have no idea if their relationship is like that or not. She _seems_ to be pretty strong willed, but who knows. I think I've decided to just do as you said, providing alternative materials and ideas, etc. I think I need to continue talking with her at meetings, build up her trust in me, so she knows I'm not just out to criticize her parenting. If she stops coming. . . I don't know. My gut says I need to do something but I guess I'll have to get more creative.

Another thing occurred to me- the ease with which she offered me the book did seem like someone who was offering something from a home business. And she had been talking about trying to find a way to make money from home. . . If she is a "distributor" of their materials. . . geez, I don't know how much hope there is. Sigh. I guess there is _always_ hope, I'll keep reminding myself that.

I bet those kids immensely appreciate your presence, even though they may not be able to say it!


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