# 9 mo on plane- lap or carseat?



## zoeart (Feb 5, 2009)

My husband and I will be traveling from east coast to west very soon with our 9 1/2 month old, and I'm not clear on whether we should hold him on our laps (and/or in ergo) or buy a ticket for him and put him in the carseat... any advice appreciated! thanks!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

A carseat is safer and easier. But it can be cost prohibitive. You actually are not allowed to have him in a carrier of any sort (ergo) on take off or landing.

-Angela


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## zoeart (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks Angela, that's sort of what I was thinking... I guess we'll check the ticket prices and go from there...


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

I know that they say you aren't allowed to have the baby attached to you for take off and lading, but I've had the baby in a woven wraps a couple times and no attendant told me otherwise. I also found having a boppy or other nursing pillow helpful as a spot for the lil one to lay down across the armrests (which are very hard)


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Please never have your baby in a carrier for take-off and landing. There is only a lap belt on the plane and your body weighs more than your baby's. On forward impact, the baby wouldn't stand a chance.

Even if a F/A doesn't see you, you are still putting your baby at great risk by doing this. You don't even have to remove the baby from the carrier. Just somehow detach it from yourself. I used to unhook carriers from behind passenger's backs before take-off and landing. The baby could stay in the carrier-as long as it wasn't attached to the parents' body. This is why "belly belts" are banned on U.S. and Canadian companies.

During the "cruise portion" of your flight, you can wear your carrier as you wish since there is no risk of forward impact and turbulence is the threat. At the point, the baby is _safer_ in the carrier.

If you need your car seat at your destination, be sure to bring it to the gate and at least try to get it on board. Mention this (nicely) at check-in and they'll see if the flight is full. Be sure to _gate-check_ any seat if you can't get a free place. _Never_ check a car seat as luggage. They get lost and damaged all the times by airlines and compensation wont be offered. It's considered a "delicate" item. Many people claim their seats are fine after checking but the truth is that the damage might not be obvious and they'd only find out if they were in an accident and the seat didn't protect their child as designed. Scary thought! Let's hope they never find out!!

How to decide? First of all, if you are headed to a destination where you wont need a car seat (i.e. big city with good public transport) or your parents have one where you will be visiting, you might go for the lap deal. You can even order an inexpensive car seat on line and have it delivered to the home of whom you're staying.

Is carrying a baby on your lap less safe? Yes! BUT air travel itself is VERY safe and there is very little chance of anything going wrong. This is where you are placing your bets. Some parents are very comfortable with this idea and others aren't. Getting your car seat safely to your destination might play a bigger role since the real threat to children is on the road, not in the air. Arriving at the airport without a safe way to transport your child is more the risk you're facing.


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## expat-mama (May 28, 2008)

Thanks for this thread. We'll be flying with our LO a lot.

If you do bring a car seat aboard, is there a way that it attaches to the plane seat? And is rear-facing safer on the plane as well? Or does that fall into the it-doesn't-make-a-difference because turbulence is the real threat category?

Thanks!


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

you can use the airplane seatbelts to attach the carseat just like in a car. I don't think it makes a huge diffference whether you RF or FF safety wise but for use RF was MUCH better comfort wise. DD is used to it, she can keep her toys in her lap (they fall off FF) and she can't kick the seat in front of her. The Scenera (our travel seat) installs very nicely in most airplane seats.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I will share a little about our infant travelling experiences.

For the first year and a half or so, we didn't purchase a seat for DS. We were always lucky enough to be seated next to an empty seat. (we had to ask for this) But from what I have heard lately, empty seats are increasingly rare now. If you choose not to purchase a ticket, it can't hurt to ask to be seated next to an empty seat upon check in.

We never had a problem securing the carseat with a seat belt. Just board early and take your time.

I know all kids are different but DS was more than happy to stay in his seat, snoozing the entire flight. Often, he would fall asleep before take off and sleep the entire flight (these flights were under 3 hours)

There is a podcast called the Crew Lounge, which is a bunch of airline employees talking about their jobs. They did an episode (#14 I think) that talks about flying with kids, safety issues and such. It is very worthwhile listening to if you can. The one female FA talks a lot about turbulence and the dangers of holding a child. I don't want to be an alarmist or stir trouble but there is a lot of debate about "what is the chance of turbulence and injury?" whenever the lap-baby subject comes up and the podcast addresses their (FAs) opinion on the subject.


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## intrepidmother (Feb 21, 2009)

I held my 9month LO for her 3 airplane rides... and I was glad I did. The air pressure changes really did a number on her and I breast fed her on the way up and down. She also slept for most of the time on me (after breastfeeding for take off).

I'm didn't even consider trying to get an empty seat for the car seat. I may try that next time.


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Please never have your baby in a carrier for take-off and landing. There is only a lap belt on the plane and your body weighs more than your baby's. On forward impact, the baby wouldn't stand a chance.

*Even if a F/A doesn't see you, you are still putting your baby at great risk by doing this*. You don't even have to remove the baby from the carrier. Just somehow detach it from yourself. I used to unhook carriers from behind passenger's backs before take-off and landing. The baby could stay in the carrier-as long as it wasn't attached to the parents' body. This is why "belly belts" are banned on U.S. and Canadian companies.

During the "cruise portion" of your flight, you can wear your carrier as you wish since there is no risk of forward impact and turbulence is the threat. At the point, the baby is _safer_ in the carrier.

I wasn't trying to suggest being sneaky. I've only flown with my daughter for 4 trips (8 times) in the past year. Flight attendants have seen her in the wrap and no one has told me she shouldn't be in there.
My thoughts on safety were this: If there was a crash or impact I doubt there would be much chance of survival of a lap baby (no wrap) either (i'm thinking the speed of a plane taking off or landing is much faster than a car and a baby just help in a car would have little chance of survival from a front impact). I figured since the statistics say that most injuries on a plane occur due to turbulence that really the scary part would be mid air. If I brought a carseat with me on the plane I'd probably have her out of it in mid air because my DD howls bloody murder in carseats. I was just kinda trusting in the low incidences of plane accidents, as opposed to bus accidents (which we use regularly with 0 seat belts, because there are none)

Eclipse, it sounds like you've done a lot of research on the subject. Can you direct me to the studies, or websites, or whatnot that I need to be reading? I'm happy to be schooled in this. TYVMIA!

Oh also the flight attendants said they had to put me next to an empty seat because there had to be an oxygen mask available for the baby.Not sure if this an airline rule or not but it happened each time I was seated somewhere else.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

On one side of the plane there are 4 masks at least. It's required. Some planes have four on each side (this is talking about 3 across aisle 3 across planes). So there are enough. But usually they only allow one lap child per row because of this.


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

I was on planes with 1 seat on one side and 2 on the other. Does that make a difference?


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

I've never really understood the wrap problem.

On frontal impact so strong that the baby would be crushed between you and the seat in front of you, if not restrained, the baby becomes a projectile. Does it really hvae a better chance as a projectile?

And how likely is that scenario compared to the risk of the baby being thrown or getting whiplash from an unexpected jolt?


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

One other thing I want to know about airplanes: Why on earth won't they allow booster seats?

I can't travel with three carseats -- I just can't carry them and my three kids. But the waist straps on the seat cut right across my sons' bellies. I spent $130 to get to CARES units, only to find that rather than protecting my kids, those straps actually make the lap belt even worse. I can't get it tight enough that my kids don't slip out hte bottom without also making it painful. I've brought a booster seat on board and found that it is MUCH better that way -- the seat belt fits properly. But I've never been allowed to leave a kid in a booster on teh plane.

Any idea?


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## astra (Jan 21, 2006)

I have read (could be outdated though) that the safest place (besides the carseat) for a baby during a rough landing/ crash is on the floor

We have traveled a lot with our son! We have done it both ways, with a seat for him and in our laps. When he was really little he only wanted to be held anyway! Even when he was over 2 he wanted to be held the whole time!!

Obviously it depends on your child and what you are comfortable with. But I feel like flying is safe, and sometimes an extra ticket is just so expensive!


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dov'sMom* 
One other thing I want to know about airplanes: Why on earth won't they allow booster seats?

I can't travel with three carseats -- I just can't carry them and my three kids. But the waist straps on the seat cut right across my sons' bellies. I spent $130 to get to CARES units, only to find that rather than protecting my kids, those straps actually make the lap belt even worse. I can't get it tight enough that my kids don't slip out hte bottom without also making it painful. I've brought a booster seat on board and found that it is MUCH better that way -- the seat belt fits properly. But I've never been allowed to leave a kid in a booster on teh plane.

Any idea?

No booster seat is allowed to be used with a lap only belt, vehicle or plane, that is why.

Though I've never had an issue with the plane seats cutting across my kiddos tummy, and he's skinny. They sit so low.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

I found having a carseat on the plane actually a lot more of a hassle. The reason is, during takeoff, landing, and any other time that the seatbelt sign comes on, your child MUST be in the carseat. You are legally bound to have the child in that seat. That was just wonderful when there was a tiny bit of turbulence and my kid started SCREAMING and I wasn't allowed to unbuckle him and soothe him. If I had a 9 month old, I would lapsit as that's where they would want to be the entire time anyways.

Also, the carseat must be in the middle seat. So, it makes it almost impossible for the person at the window to get out. Also the carseat puts the child's feet in PRIME position to KICK the seat in front of them. Yah, it's fun to get them to stop doing that. But you have to...it's the only polite and courteous thing to do.

I learned my lesson and the next time I travelled with my son at 2 yrs old I just checked his carseat at the gate and had him sit in his own seat without a carseat. The belt buckle was fine and he was SO much happier and content. jmho.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

I have always found it much easier to keep my young kids in the lap during 60+ flights, most of them international (always brought our RF seats with us though). While I work with car seat safety full time I disagree with a car seat being easier on a flight. Everyone, especially staff, hate car seats on board. I have also found a majority of kids being very unhappy in their seats on the plane.

Unhappy kids in a car is no reason for not keeping them rear facing since vehicle accidents are the number one killer of children in US. Airline travel is completely different since we don't have any children dying or being seriously injured unless the aircraft crashes and kill everyone on board.

Keeping a child on the lap is extremely safe. Using a car seat might be slightly safer but the difference is too small to matter. It's irrelevant for safety which all data, stats and ral life experience show. Don't take my word for it, check any airline statistics and the answer is very clear.

The priority should as always bee on having a car seat for your child as you arrive since traveling on the ground is thousands of times more dangerous than being in a plane.

Enjoy your trip!


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## NorthernPixie (Dec 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 

Also, the carseat must be in the middle seat. So, it makes it almost impossible for the person at the window to get out. Also the carseat puts the child's feet in PRIME position to KICK the seat in front of them. Yah, it's fun to get them to stop doing that. But you have to...it's the only polite and courteous thing to do.

I don't think this is right - as far as I know the car seat must be at the window just so it doesn't impede the person in the window seat from getting out.

And if you install RF (if you can), that avoids the kicking the seat in front problem, which is a major PITA. Installing RF might prevent the person in front from reclining their seat, but I believe the child in the seat has the priority to be installed RF rather than the passenger being able to recline their seat.


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## YvonneC-M (Feb 9, 2010)

My 13-month-old has flown with me on five round-trip flights in the past ten months, mostly recently from New York to San Francisco and back, and we've never used a carseat or carrier. I just hold her on my lap, and if we're lucky to have an empty seat next to us, we spread out. She breastfeeds for takeoff and landing. Air travel with her has been tiring but otherwise easy.


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## Davonia (Jun 16, 2010)

I travelled with my 6 mo and he sat in my lap. The only complaint I had was that I was travelling my myself and he really wore me out because he was wide awake the entire time! I guess I did a good job of entertaining him cause after the flight, several people said that he was good. Next time, I will fly with someone else whose lap we can trade off!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

This is a hot topic for me. I will try to sum up:

1. A child in a lap is four times more likely to die in bad turbulence or a mild crash than a child in a car-seat.
2. Due to gravitational forces, a parent (even a strong man) cannot physically hold the baby to her or himself should there be a sudden drop, even if the drop is otherwise surviveable.
3. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&highlight=faa
4. http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com

It is much, much safer to fly with children in a seat.

As the first reply said, though, air travel is much safer than driving. So I guess it depends on how you calculate the risks.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

In a plane without a middle section, the seat HAS to go in the window seat. If you do fly with a carseat (even in an unpaid-for seat) the child HAS to be in that seat whenever the light is on, so takeoff, landing, turbulence, etc. Some pilots keep it on the whole flight.

I flew with DD in my lap until she was about 1.5, then I started getting seats for her if there was one available. I found it much easier to just hold her as a tiny baby (first flight at 3 months) and much easier to use the carseat RF in our most recent flight (2yo). She's had more than 20 flights since her birth. I think the carseat got easier around 12-18months, prior to that I preferred the lap. DD did not like her carseat as an infant though - serious carseat screamer for the first 9 months or so.


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## AmyKT (Aug 20, 2009)

I have only flown once with DD. She was 3 months old and we were travelling alone, and I knew flights to where I was heading were usually fully booked, so I jumped at the chance to buy her own seat (very discounted for an infant) and take along her carseat. We needed it anyway at our destination. This is not necessarily from a safety perspective, but having two seats to ourselves was great, and I had the option of either holding her or letting her sit in the carseat. I might be a little braver now and do the lap thing with our upcoming baby, but at the time, I didn't regret it at all. The flight was packed and we would have been very, very cramped had she not had her own seat. Her seat was at the window and it fit RF easily with the seatbelt. If I had been travelling with my husband, we probably wouldn't have bought an extra seat, but for travelling alone with a baby, I'd say it was worth it.


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

We have always purchased a seat for our kids, regardless of age. I was not willing to risk it. My DH was on a plane with awful turbulence where bags flew up to the ceiling of the cabin etc, and a couple of my friends have had similar experiences. It does happen.

They usually snoozed away in their car seats for much of the flight.

We were able to get half price tickets for the kids up to age 2. I am not sure if any airlines are still doing that or not.

When my kids were babies, I took the bucket seat along with the base and used the lap belt to install the base, just like you would in the car, and it has to go RF. Otherwise you can string the lap belt along the top of the bucket and not use a base. I opted to use the base because I was on a plane where my seat belt had dried vomit on it and I figured I didn't want a filthy seat belt right in front of my baby to be pawed at. (The base fit into the bottom basket of the stroller I took with, and the seat fit into the stroller, and I draped my carry ons over the stroller and the car seat. I wore the baby.)

And yes the car seat has to go in the window seat, so you would probably be in a middle seat depending on the configuration in the plane.

Good luck. There is no easy way to travel with kids, IMO.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
A carseat is safer and easier. But it can be cost prohibitive. You actually are not allowed to have him in a carrier of any sort (ergo) on take off or landing.

-Angela

This pretty much sums it up.

I flew with my then 14 month old without a carseat (because we could not afford the tickets with one) and it was a huge PITA. I really wished I had had it. If I fly with him again, he is definitely going in the car seat, or I won't go. It sucked.


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## simcon (Jul 31, 2002)

We have flown many times with both kids when they were under 2 (at least a dozen trips each, some long-haul int'l flights), and in almost every case they've had their own seat and carseat. We do this both for safety--I've been in enough turbulence that I *know* would have been challenging/scary/unsafe for a lap child--and for the comfort, space, and ease of the flight. Not major, but I also like having the carseat within sight the whole time.

With a bucket, I didn't use the base (I stick it under the seat in front)--we fly a lot on SW, and I've had the carseat get pretty stuck in those seats just because of the length and buckle location on the seatbelts, and using only the bucket works just fine.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I still don't understand how holding a baby is safer than having the baby in a carrier (obviously NOT withing the lap belt with you). I know that it's the rule, but I don't get why. And I agree the safest place is in the carseat. I'm just trying to figure out the physics of the thing.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

No need to feed on take-off and landing. If you are using a car seat, be sure your LO is in it during those times. The critical time to feed your baby is not during either but at the TOP of descent (usually 40 minutes to an hour before landing). This is when the pressurization reverses in everyone's ears (you'll feel it too). The AAP says to have the child _awake_. Any head movement, gurgling, talking, laughing, etc. helps their ears. You don't have to force them to feed. Just keep to a normal feeding routine!

Landing is too late for the ears.

I made sure that we scheduled a trip to the doctor to make sure they didn't have an ear infection. My son had a history of them (the only one who had formula since he was mixed fed from 5 months on). The few times there were problems were babies who were or recently been sick. They were in real pain and no sucking helped. I rarely saw ear problems.

Boosters aren't allowed because they're only to position a shoulder strap-which airline seats don't have. Airplane seats also collapse for emergency reasons, unlike a car, so there's no support behind them. It has to be a hard shell seat with an internal harness to have any benefit.

The FAA allows rfing seats. If you have a plane with decent pitch, you're fine. You can also put a family member in front if kicking is a problem. Car seats have to go by windows, except if there are two aisles. They they can go in a middle seat in the center section. Everyone has to have access to the aisle without a car seat in the way.

Someone posted here that there is an airline which allows certain seats in aisle seats. Apparently if the design doesn't let the seat protrude or some logic like that. I can't confirm but it certainly doesn't hurt to ask!

My flying experience, both as a mom and as a F/A, are that there are fewer problems when you bring the seat. One reason is that their feet are above the real "kick zone" at the bottom of the seat in front of them. Often, children without a car seat have their legs sticking out and they bump the seat in front of them every time they get out. They sleep better and can see out the window. No, you do not have to have your child in it every minute.

Mine spent most of the time in my lap and then I had the seat for either when they slept or take-off and landing. It was nice to be able to get out of my seat when they were asleep and not worry that they would be hurt in turbulence.

Don't worry if they cry on take-off and landing. It's not because of their ears! (since crying clears the ears better than sucking so if they don't stop...) Everyone is awake, or should be. I found it easier to have them strapped in and comforting them than to have a squirmy toddler jumping out of my lap. There are cases of families being "off loaded" due to not controlling their toddler. I'm alone with three children and I don't know how I could have coped with my wiggly youngest!

Yes, your child is safer loose in your lap if you don't use a car seat on board. Children have survived, even thrown whereas they don't have a chance in your lap. Forward impact could happen even in a "lesser" crash (for lack of a better word) where the aircraft slides off the runway.

I don't want to go on about this especially since much of it was learned in class, with yukky photos that weren't released to the press. The airlines, whether by law or tact, don't reveal all the gory details of a crash to the press.

Let's just say about keeping your child loose in your lap, take my word for it! The carrier also could get in the way in an emergency. It's a FAA regulation so it's easier to take the carrier off when and how you want than 2 minutes before push-back, have some bossy F/A scolding you!


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

You've gotten some good info, so I'll share my opinion.







I've done both. With one (mostly temperamentally content) child, lap holding worked just fine. With several children, especially my more active ones, they have been happier in seats. I recommend rear-facing especially with kick-y toddlers. They lose out on having a tray, but you'll get fewer nasty looks.


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YvonneC-M* 
My 13-month-old has flown with me on five round-trip flights in the past ten months, mostly recently from New York to San Francisco and back, and we've never used a carseat or carrier. I just hold her on my lap, and if we're lucky to have an empty seat next to us, we spread out. She breastfeeds for takeoff and landing. Air travel with her has been tiring but otherwise easy.

I have flown many times with my son, starting when he was 3 months to the present, 7 yo. We have airplane travel down to a science, from packing, to security points, to flying! I second what YvonneC says. My son sat on my lap until he was about 18 months - breastfeeding made all the difference in the world. For very long flights I purchased 2 seats - 1 for him, 1 for me, so he could stretch out. I understand people wanting to use a car seat but when I did use one once, it was more of a hassle and detracts from the journey. Of course I do bring a car seat but I check it.

What I do bring is a stroller (even at his age). It's great for carrying our carry-ons, snacks or, when necessary, a tired boy through the terminal. I bring it to the plane and let the staff put it in luggage for me. It's different for everyone, but I'm into smooth, peaceful travel. A car seat, for us, is anything but that.


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## smusiak (Mar 5, 2008)

I had my DD on my lap
i was also nurseing her to
and it made her Free
becuse she did take up seat
some airline will say under 2 fly free


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

We always fly with all the kids in their car seats.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

_I bring it to the plane and let the staff put it in luggage for me. It's different for everyone, but I'm into smooth, peaceful travel. A car seat, for us, is anything but that._

Bravo for at least gate-checking the car seat! It's no guarantee but better than luggage-checking it.

Some of this might depend on the design of the car seat. I have no problem with the Radian. There are some seats which are better for travel than others. I've also used a Sit & Stroll (not recommended unless you do _a lot_ of flying like we do), the Scenera and I've also heard that the Combi Coccoro is a great, hassle-free seat.

http://www.combi-intl.com/Products/Item.aspx?Item=12

I don't like to recommend buying a car seat for this purpose, especially for the one-off vacation. The seat most have in their car is probably already approved, but for those of you who see a lot of flying in your future, or who have had a bad experience with a bulkier seat, you may want to look into the subject further. If you are planning on purchasing another seat anyway soon, you may want to keep it in mind. I wanted a SnS instead of a dozen more baby outfits so my family pooled and got it as a second-baby gift.

For the record, I found that the heavier Radian easier to fly with than the wider, but lighter Scenera (I do admit I had an older model). Don't flee from the heavier models. If it's well-designed, sitting on a luggage cart, you wont really notice the extra weight.


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

Eclipsepearl said:


> _I bring it to the plane and let the staff put it in luggage for me. It's different for everyone, but I'm into smooth, peaceful travel. A car seat, for us, is anything but that._
> 
> Bravo for at least gate-checking the car seat! It's no guarantee but better than luggage-checking it.
> 
> ...


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

No, because I find it much easier to have the car seats on board the aircraft with me. I don't have the luxury of flying with my husband and I keep car seats at my parents'. The little one is very active and I need her in a car seat. It's the only way I can handle three children alone.

Gate-checking isn't necessarily a guarantee. It's only slightly better than luggage checking them. Ask your dh what you would do if the car seats weren't there? I remember when only one of my four bags arrived but we had the car seat and my dd was safe on the 2 hour drive home.

If the staff gives you a hard time, take down their names and threaten to write them up. They might not understand the logic of bringing FAA approved car seats up to the door, yet not using them on board. This would be safer for your LO's. JMHO.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Gate checking is rarely a bad idea but don't forget there are lots of places globally where it's not allowed any many airlines don't allow it. We've personally always brought our two Britax Hi-Way rear facing seats (55 lbs limit) in special padded car seat bags.

We wrap them in bubble wrap and protect the seat further with diapers and clothing. It has worked nicely on 60+ flights around the world, a high percentage of these long transatlantic flights. A decently designed car seat will not break unless damaged unless a truck runs over it. Could happen but it's extremely unlikely.

Once again, focus on car seat safety on the ground. That's where the danger is. It's more dangerous to sit down at the dinner table with your kids than flying without the little one in a car set.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

ME: I have flown with my DS both as a lap baby and in his car seat. The car seat flights were MUCH easier for both of us and he actually was much happier. Ask for a seat-belt extender even though you should be able to buckle the seat without one; it makes the process easier, especially when unfastening the seat belt. I put his seat FF and we had no problems with him kicking the seat in front of him.

Also, I used the GoGoBabys TravelMate to turn his car seat into a stroller and wheeled him through the airports even on the flights when he was a lap baby and his seat was gate-checked. It kept him confined so I could handle everything else and provided him with an island of familiarity.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

I haven't flown with my baby yet, but after hearing two F/A friends and an airline employee relative (none of whom know each other) tell me that their field refers to lap babies as "unattended flying objects," I will bring my carseat on board if I do have to fly.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Please never have your baby in a carrier for take-off and landing. There is only a lap belt on the plane and your body weighs more than your baby's. On forward impact, the baby wouldn't stand a chance.

Even if a F/A doesn't see you, you are still putting your baby at great risk by doing this. You don't even have to remove the baby from the carrier. Just somehow detach it from yourself. I used to unhook carriers from behind passenger's backs before take-off and landing. The baby could stay in the carrier-as long as it wasn't attached to the parents' body.

How exactly is the carrier different than having my arms tight around the baby? My arms are just as attached to my body as any carrier would be.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
How exactly is the carrier different than having my arms tight around the baby? My arms are just as attached to my body as any carrier would be.

Because in an impact your arms WILL lose grasp of the baby, so if you smash into the seat in front of you the baby will fall out of the way first.

-Angela


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
This is a hot topic for me. I will try to sum up:

1. A child in a lap is four times more likely to die in bad turbulence or a mild crash than a child in a car-seat.

2. Due to gravitational forces, a parent (even a strong man) cannot physically hold the baby to her or himself should there be a sudden drop, even if the drop is otherwise surviveable.

4.http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com/

1. According to what data? In a thread a while back I was given a link to a site with crash reports, I looked through all of them that mentioned "infant" or "baby" and they simply did not support the argument that car seats are vastly safer on airplanes.

2. How was this determined? The strength needed to keep from unfolding your arms is considerably less than the strength needed to draw your arms in once they're extended. Whenever I see "you couldn't possibly hold your baby in a crash or even in turbulence that throws adults off their feet!!" I have to wonder was this actually tested out by created a drop and having people try to hold onto crashtest child dummies? "The physics doesn't lie" only applies if we're looking at an accurate representation of the forces involved.

4. She says that a carseat is vital for child safety, but she also recommends getting a bulkhead seat so your toddler can play on the floor.


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
1. A child in a lap is four times more likely to die in bad turbulence or a mild crash than a child in a car-seat.
2. Due to gravitational forces, a parent (even a strong man) cannot physically hold the baby to her or himself should there be a sudden drop, even if the drop is otherwise surviveable.

I have personally grabbed a "flying child" out of midair in some nasty turbulence over the pacific my dd was in her carseat (only cause i was on a military flight, free and everyone helps you carry everything on MAC flights if you have a baby but i digress) i continued to hold onto the girl as the drops continued to happen over the next 5 min and the girl was about 5 so fairly heavy and i never lost hold of her after i grabbed her (she was also in a dead sleep so she wasnt suppourting her weight)... If you have one child i wouldnt bring a seat (with the exception of international flights) and i would actually just buy a secenra to ship to your destination or rent from a car rental place.... if you have more than one that are in car seats i would bring one just to have a safe place to keep one child... basically IME your arms are a perfectly safe place for your child


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
No, because I find it much easier to have the car seats on board the aircraft with me. I don't have the luxury of flying with my husband and I keep car seats at my parents'. The little one is very active and I need her in a car seat. It's the only way I can handle three children alone.

Gate-checking isn't necessarily a guarantee. It's only slightly better than luggage checking them. Ask your dh what you would do if the car seats weren't there? I remember when only one of my four bags arrived but we had the car seat and my dd was safe on the 2 hour drive home.

If the staff gives you a hard time, take down their names and threaten to write them up. They might not understand the logic of bringing FAA approved car seats up to the door, yet not using them on board. This would be safer for your LO's. JMHO.

]

So you are saying that the best is to carry the car seats on but don't use them? Not sure I am understanding you. I can't see them ever agreeing to that as there is no way they fit in any of the carry on stowage areas. We currently use a Britax Boulevard and a Graco Nautilus for my 4 and 6 year olds. I might switch to boosters for travel situations by the next time we go anywhere.

I feel like at least with the gate-check the seats don't get lost. They might still get damaged - I really don't know how much better gate checking is vs. checking with the regular baggage in that regard. But at least I am very confident they will be there when we arrive. And that is what has "won over" DH to bringing them to the gate, so far.

I like the idea of a parent above to go ahead and check the seats but with all kinds of padding around them. That at least protects the seats, and on a direct flight maybe that is a good way to do it. With a flight with tranfers though, there is no way I'd consider that for fear of them getting lost.


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## Magistra (Jan 15, 2010)

I was just on a flight this past weekend where we hit major turbulence without any warning. It was bad enough that a flight attendant was injured and had to be taken out by paramedics when we arrived. The very first thing that happened was a major drop. I was so happy my 4-month-old was strapped into his bucket seat. We were both asleep and there's no way I would have held onto him through that, even if I'd been just groggy instead of napping. He slept through the whole thing.

We had bought a seat for every plane trip, which were frequent, with his older brother and not encountered any real issues. But this one trip has made me feel that the extra expense has been worth it.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

I have flown with lap babies and this most recent trip I brought a seat for my under 2 year old ds. With my dd I was wishing for a seat because it was hard for her to fall asleep and us with a almost 2 year old in our laps.

This recent trip I though buying a seat would be easier and my ds would sit and fall asleep in it. I was wrong. He screamed bloody murder whenever he was in the seat even though he doesn't in the car. He got fussy and cried when out of the seat too but the seat made it worse. People complained about his screaming and offered him food and water he refused and complained about the kicking.

I kept him in his seat during take off and landing only. One landing he was asleep in my lap and I didn't even bother putting him in the seat to wake him and have him scream. On one leg I was walking him around and he fell asleep and I put him in the seat and his head bobbing because he was facing foward woke him up. His seat was a radian and the people in front of me reclined their seats so either way they would be annoyed at either the kicking or the fact they couldn't recline their seat.

I don't think safety wise having a lap baby is a big deal. There are very little reports of serious injury or death from plane rides. A lot of the kids I see with purchased seats are not in them the whole flight anyway.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

No, babies don't have to be in the seat the whole time. Yes you can have sudden turbulence but it's more common that it's bumpy first. Also, we used to get information from the aircraft in front of us so we did get some warning (this might explain why the seat belt sign sometimes goes on and it's smooth).

Some of you are confusing the forces with take-off and landing with those of turbulence. Take-off and landing are the most dangerous portions of the flight. You have to stay in your seat and your child is safer in a car seat. If the plane goes off the runway, the forces are too great to hold your child in your arms. The chances of that happening are slim.

Turbulence, by contrast, is more common, usually less dangerous and has a different "force" or direction. Basically, it can be up and down or side to side, whatever. It can be dramatic but usually not. If you're up and turbulence hits, evaluate whether it's a good idea to go back to your seat. It might be better to stay put and hang on to something. One hand can go on a handle, the other on the child. You can also sit on the floor if you feel that's safer in really rough air.

The example above where the baby was sleeping in the car seat is a good example. My kids were not big on strollers and wouldn't sit much in the car seat. I kept them close, walked the aisle with them and made sure I could grab them if it got rough. I also could sleep myself, knowing that my baby was strapped in safely. Sometimes the baby would fall asleep in my arms and then I could transfer them into the seat...

Information on death and injuries relating to babies and car seats are not too reliable because gratefully, it's rare. The FAA uses car data to make decisions. For me, transporting the car seat is almost, or even more, the issue than whether having the car seat in the cabin helps in the air. It is safer in the air but the real risk is having the car seat lost and/or broken en route. Gate-checked items can be very roughly treated!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *astra* 
I have read (could be outdated though) that the safest place (besides the carseat) for a baby during a rough landing/ crash is on the floor

Besides making no sense, I read on this forum about a year ago about a baby dying in 1990 from the parent being told to do just that.

http://books.google.com/books?id=av7...page&q&f=false


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
No, babies don't have to be in the seat the whole time. Yes you can have sudden turbulence but it's more common that it's bumpy first. Also, we used to get information from the aircraft in front of us so we did get some warning (this might explain why the seat belt sign sometimes goes on and it's smooth).

Some of you are confusing the forces with take-off and landing with those of turbulence. Take-off and landing are the most dangerous portions of the flight. You have to stay in your seat and your child is safer in a car seat. If the plane goes off the runway, the forces are too great to hold your child in your arms. The chances of that happening are slim.

Turbulence, by contrast, is more common, usually less dangerous and has a different "force" or direction.

I'm sorry. In the thread on this topic last year, the argument in favor of a car seat on a plane was because of turbulence. That's why I thought you were talking about turbulence too. That and the fact you mentioned "drops".

Still curious how the forces are calculated though. I mean, planes have a lot of mass and therefore there's a lot of force involved when they accelerate, but in an impact the plane would also be absorbing a lot of that force. You'd have to be taped to the outside of the plane to actually experience all of the force of a crash, it seems to me. I know I suck at physics though, so I'd really like a reference to the information on forces.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

SC, the force is not absorbed by the plane. You are going down WITH that plane, and you have the same amount of inertia as you always do. Just like jumping right before you hit is not going to help one itty, bitty bit, neither is being "stuck" to the plane going to make it worse. The plane is not going to cushion your fall in any meaningful way at the speeds that occur during an air crash.

However, turbulence is still an issue and the RF / FF might not be an issue but a five-point-harness is still going to help keep that kid from hitting the ceiling.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Yes, the baby on floor thing is outdated and not done anymore.

Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
SC, the force is not absorbed by the plane.

Well, something happens so that the force imparted to each passenger is not the same as the force of tons of metal accelerating swiftly to a stop or there'd never be survivors of any crash, regardless of restraints.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
However, turbulence is still an issue and the RF / FF might not be an issue but a five-point-harness is still going to help keep that kid from hitting the ceiling.

Or other people. In a crash, a lap baby becomes a projectile just as a piece of luggage would.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.

Awesome!

Instead of exaggerating that no one could ever hold onto a baby in a crash (or in turbulence? I still can't believe people were making that argument in the discussion last year about this) let's figure out how people can hold onto their babies.


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## caemommy (Apr 16, 2009)

We have flown every couple of months for the past 6 years with my kids (now 6 and 3). I have always purchased a seat for them, and brought their car seats. (Well, when I was traveling alone with an infant and 3 yr old, we used the CARES harness and gate checked his seat) When my husband is with is, we are in two separate rows, each with one child in their car seat. As infants, I would have to take them out during the flight to nurse or comfort, but always in the seat for take off and landing, and if there was warning about turbulence. Our rule is that once they are walking, they are in the carseat from the time the plane pushes back, to the time we pull up to the destination gate. It is just like our car - when we're in motion, you don't get out of your seat. Does require a lot of work for mom and dad to entertain, but really, my kids were very happy. Once they had done that once or twice, they got it. They are familiar and comfy in their carseats. I always feel bad for the parents stick walking the aisles with a toddler, trying to avoid beverage carts and the like.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I would say not in your lap for that far just because of comfort, not so sure about the carseat idea but I always used one. It is expensive (they charge full fare usually now), but having somewhere to put your baby is handy, especially on a long flight. Also, you get more carry-on allowance if you have a seat for them.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
Yes, the baby on floor thing is outdated and not done anymore.

Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.

Actually, I read the opposite. The baby was held to the floor and the passenger next to the mother offered to hold him since he was bigger/stronger/whatever. A quick internet search couldn't confirm this but a baby would be MUCH safer held to the floor than in the lap or over the shoulder. It's easier to hold something against something else and it also means the parents' body wont crush the baby.

I can ask some of my friends who are still flying but I think holding babies to the floor in prepared emergency landings is still standard. At least I hope so!

The plane does NOT "absorb" any impact. I did have an aborted take-off once. Wow, what force!!! The passengers are totally unaware. Take-off feels so smooth but when we had to stop, yeee gads! I think that convinced me to use those car seats when I finally did have children and flew with them


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

It's amazing and fascinating that this is still discussed. Keeping a child in a lap or with lap belt is and has always been extremely safe. There are zero children killed each year due to turbulence on planes globally, almsot all of these kids are in lap or with lap belts.

For some parents the sky is always falling, everything is dangerous. Sadly, what most feel being the most dangerous is actually the opposite. Data and stats for fatalities on planes due to turbulence are easily available online for everyone. The data does of course show that car seat seat or not doesn't really matter, flying with a child is still safer than sitting down at the dinner table at home.

Requiring every child to sit in a car seat would not save any lives, instead it would likely increase fatalities with up to 60% since more parents would use cars instead of aircraft.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Actually, I read the opposite. The baby was held to the floor and the passenger next to the mother offered to hold him since he was bigger/stronger/whatever. A quick internet search couldn't confirm this but a baby would be MUCH safer held to the floor than in the lap or over the shoulder. It's easier to hold something against something else and it also means the parents' body wont crush the baby.

I can ask some of my friends who are still flying but I think holding babies to the floor in prepared emergency landings is still standard. At least I hope so!

The plane does NOT "absorb" any impact. I did have an aborted take-off once. Wow, what force!!! The passengers are totally unaware. Take-off feels so smooth but when we had to stop, yeee gads! I think that convinced me to use those car seats when I finally did have children and flew with them









A former flight attendent on another board said the baby on the floor thing is NOT recommended anymore.

I don't know where the article is I read (it was quite a while back) but in the Hudson landing it was a mom with a baby and another young child (the other child being in their own seat). She didn't know how to care for both of them and another man offered to take the baby. He then held the baby for the landing and they were both perfectly fine.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

Yeah if you do a search for the infant and then search for the name of the woman on the Hudson flight, it says she handed her infant to the man sitting beside her and he held on to the baby. He did NOT put the baby on the floor.

Also, I have seen several flight attendants say that putting the baby on the floor is not the current safety recommendation. The picture at the bottom of this link is what I have been instructed to do to brace myself and an infant http://www.deliciousbaby.com/journal...me-turbulence/

Flying is extremely safe, lap baby or not.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

That link you gave is for turbulence, not a prepared emergency landing. Remember, there are different dynamics for take-off and landing than there are for turbulence.

It depends on the airline. I read that the child was held to the floor landing on the Hudson but that shows you how inconsistent the press can be (experience speaking, especially with aviation!) My first airline just had the baby in the lap but the second had the babies on the floor (only prepared, there is probably no time in an unprepared emergency landing). The floor helps hold the child in place, our instuctors explained. The parent only has to hold them in one direction.

Again, flying is so safe that there are no reliable statistics on this. There are many preparations for emergency landings that turn out fine (remember that if you are ever in one!) The pilots will order one for some small mechanical problem (that has a small potential of being dangerous) and you'll get to see the whole routine. I never had to do one in 13 years of flying but many of my domestic coworkers did. Please note that domestic is not less safe. I simply did fewer take-off's and landing's doing long-haul international than they did.

But there is a lot of difference between airlines. I had to relearn the commands, the positions, etc. There is a difference even with how they want the adults to brace themselves. There is virtually no information on which way is best just because there aren't enough incidents to make a reliable comparison. They can't say "In accident X, the brace position was too..." It just doesn't happen!

Btw, the fly vs. drive argument is debated. Some say that the airlines pressure the FAA to not bring in a seat-for-each passenger policy for commercial reasons (i.e. to sell more seats). I certainly can't drive from Europe to California so trips like ours' shouldn't be counted...

I'll go ask one of my coworkers if the second airline still does this but I can only find out for them, not the other companies.


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