# would you let a 9 year old alone at the library?



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i was shocked today.

the librarian at our local public library said dd could join the tween reading club. dd is a v. responsible 9 whom the librarian has not met yet. for those of you curious they are reading one book from the warrior series.

she said i could leave dd there alone by herself to attend the club as long as she knows exactly how to reach me.

i was ELATED at that (because dd wld be so excited and proud to FINALLY be allowed to do something by herself) yet a little shocked. i did not realise a librarian would allow a 9 year old to attend a book club by herself. i always associate alone with 12 year old.

i am not objecting. i am just fine with it.

how would you feel if they said a 9 year old could stay in the library alone? irrespective of whether your child is ready or not.

would you find it shocking? i am in california. are the rules a little strict in other states.

now at my college library, even though it has a children's section, children under 12 must be accompanied by a parent or adult.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I'm a little confused. You find it "shocking" that a nine yr old could be in a library w/o a parent? This past summer i noticed a local library (not the one in my town but a few towns over) had a note up with rules about unattended children, and i think it was something like under 12 had to be there with a parent (or perhaps older sibling)...i was "shocked" at that! I know that in the summer some libraries may have issues with parents dropping their child off for free "daycare" at the library but still...what have we come to that a 9 yr old couldnt bike to their local library and spend a few hours in a safe environment doing something we should all be encouraging (reading)?? Growing up i dont think my mother ever set foot in our local library but my brother and i would walk there all the time. I think if there is an issue with a child apparently "abandoned" for daycare, or a child being unruly or a child truly so young they should be w/ a parent (such as one not yet school age)...i think libraries should handle those situations on a case by case basis.

Do you live in a large city or unsafe area? I dont know that i would necessarily leave a younger child alone in a big city library but my city's library? Its about as safe as safe can get.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

I don't find it that shocking. I have left my chidlren at 5,6,7,8 at theri sports programs alone and just drop off and pick them up, as has every other parent on their teams. Here, programs become "unparented" at age 3. I would find it shocking that at age 9 there would be an expectation that a parent needs to stay with a child at any program. As far as getting there alone, that is different. I wouldn't send my 9 year old to the library alone becasue it is really far, you'd need a car, but if we lived a block away I would consider it.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

My DD has been attending her clay class alone since she was 4 1/2. Why would a structured library program be any different? My DS is 7 1/2. Our library is undergoing a big expansion and remodeling so it's being housed at a small mall across the street. I would definitely drop him off if he wanted to attend their book club. I'd be more likely to stay and read books with DD but I don't see a problem with him being there without me.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

If someone told me that I would need to stay with my 9 year, I would be shocked! Our local library doesn't have rules about children being alone, or if they do, I haven't seen them. I know other libraries around do because of children getting dropped off. I have seen that personally when we used to live in another town close by, I witnessed children 5 and 3 being dropped off for the day with bags of candy and soda. My girls have been getting dropped off at sports programs alone since they were 3. I generally like to stay there for my 5 year unless it is gymnastics where the coaches know her and us very well. I am rarely around for my 9 year though and haven't been for a few years, maybe since age 6. She is capable of being dropped off at a sport at the door, getting herself ready, eating snacks, even doing homework there if I dropped her off early, and getting herself to the correct class and the appointed time, and she will be waiting for us when we come back to get her. She stays at dance alone once a week from 3:15-7:30pm.


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## kittyhead (Oct 28, 2005)

when i was nine i used to walk to the library (2 blocks) by myself. or my mom would drop me off, and pick me up an hour later. also in california, buy 20 years ago. no big deal.


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## JollyGG (Oct 1, 2008)

Around here kids are usually fine at all structured activities without a parent present once they reach school age. Unstructured activities usually like the kids to be 7 or 8 to be without a parents (things like open gym time).

The assumption is that if they can be at school for several hours a day and be fine in a group setting why wouldn't they be able to do so for other activities, be it clubs, sports, classes or whatever.

I run a Jr Lego League for 6-9 year olds and I require a sign in sheet with a number to reach a responsible adult in case of emergencies, but would be shocked if parents stayed more than occasionally.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm confused--- will there be an adult present at this tween reading club?

If so, it's not unaccompanied: it's a class, with an adult leader. My 9 year olds went to school and classes without me frequently. I would not have dropped them at the library for an hour on their own, though just like I would have not left my children home alone for an hour at 9. With another adult specifcially in charge of them? No problem. Around here, at least, most kids programs become kids only around 3-4 (swimming, gymnasitcs, arts & crafts, etc...). When they are that young the expectation is that you are waiting nearby (especially for 30 minute classes) but it is fairly common to drop off school aged children at things like sports, scout meetings, etc.. and simply pick them up when they are done.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

.

Yes, I would let my 9 yo be in the library by himself - with or without a reading group. And no, I would not consider it daycare, because a 9 yo would not be running around a library, disturbing others or making a mess. My 7yo wouldn't, so why would a 9 yo?

I leave my 5yo off at gymnastics and come back 45 minutes later. That is with a teacher. I wouldn't leave my 5 yo in a gym without any adult or teacher though. Nor would I leave my 9 yo or even 16 year old. I just don't think it would be safe having someone jumping on beams and bars without a spotter. But a library? Makes me want to chuckle. What could happen? Flying books or what?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AllisonR*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is my opinion, for my family, but I just don't consider most 9 year olds responsible enough to be responsible for themselves. As in, they could not take care of themselves in an emergency. Because of that, I wouldn't leave them in a situation where they would need to. If I knew someone at the library, I would be fine leaving a 9 year old there (with the understanding with the other adult that the child could come to them for help). I just don't think it's generally okay to expect the librarian to do that. I figure that the recommendation (around here at least) for being left alone is 11 years old.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> This is my opinion, for my family, but I just don't consider most 9 year olds responsible enough to be responsible for themselves. As in, they could not take care of themselves in an emergency. Because of that, I wouldn't leave them in a situation where they would need to. If I knew someone at the library, I would be fine leaving a 9 year old there (with the understanding with the other adult that the child could come to them for help). I just don't think it's generally okay to expect the librarian to do that. I figure that the recommendation (around here at least) for being left alone is 11 years old.


I agree with this. We have been involved with two libraries. One is serving a larger community and has many classes a large user-base and I would not feel comfortable leaving a 9 year old there alone. It's not that I'm worried about safety as much as how responsible he/she'd be with limited supervision. A teacher or librarian is not a babysitter.

The current library we go to is a community place where they know you and your whole family and if you call to renew your books, they know who you are by your voice. I would leave my child there because I know my child and we would have a lot of communication to see if it was working out.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

ah i should have better worded it.

this is in a big city at one of its huge major branches.

the 'shock' was because this is the first time i have to leave my dd alone. we have not done any classes where she would be left alone. i always have the 'not alone under 12" rule in my head.

i never thought about it as a class. now that makes sense.

but yeah she is allowed to wander the library alone as long as she behaves herself.

i just have to change my mindset. its still stuck on rules of being allowed alone stage.

my school library which does not have any child friendly programs will not even talk to a child by herself (asking catalogue questions).


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm a bit confused still. Around here, at 3yo the kids can be left alone for story hour etc. (though some ask that parents stay in the building for kids in the 3-6 range). Definitely 9yo seems plenty old enough!! She's never been to a class by herself???


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I'm a bit confused still. Around here, at 3yo the kids can be left alone for story hour etc. (though some ask that parents stay in the building for kids in the 3-6 range). Definitely 9yo seems plenty old enough!! She's never been to a class by herself???


I just can't picture physically leaving the library while my 3-year-old went in. It's not a daycare center.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Wow! I have no idea where 3 year olds would be able to be dropped off for storytime or anything else, but around where I live, all pre-school programs pretty much say the parent has to be there (unless you are paying them to watch your child, i.e. parent's night out or something like that). Definitely all the storytimes in my area would expect the parent to be right there (not just in the building). And even if it was an organized class like sports or gymnastics where the kids go off by themselves with a teacher or coach, the parents are expected to be close at hand - within viewing distance. No drop offs. Since I don't have a 9 year old, I can't comment on how I would feel about that age group, but I'm just shocked to hear about the 3, 4, 5 year olds.....

Sorry if I didn't really contribute to the OP's question - I just couldn't help but comment. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just shocked.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I'm a bit confused still. Around here, at 3yo the kids can be left alone for story hour etc. (though some ask that parents stay in the building for kids in the 3-6 range). Definitely 9yo seems plenty old enough!! She's never been to a class by herself???


AHA!!! no way. NO WAY would ANY public library or book store here let a 3 year old be present without parent being RIGHT there. parent HAS to be accompanied with the child.

a class yes i understand. but i did not think of storytime as class. i thought of it as parents present somewhere in the library as child attended book club.


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## CherryBombMama (Jan 25, 2010)

I live in CA. I could see leaving my future 9 yr old in a class in a library while I wandered the library, but I don't think I would feel comfortable with leaving the premises while a 9 yr old was allowed to wander the entire library. I have worked in a library, and I have seen many strange people that I would not feel comfortable being around my boys without myself present. I have also had a man come up to me when I was working, about age 17-18, with a entourage of men standing behind him, tell me that if I was to "come with him" he would "take care of me" and "give me everything I wanted." I was scared speechless but thankfully some male coworkers chased them out of there.

In California, where I live, I would not leave a 9 year old alone in a place where no one is really looking out for them.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

meemee, I've never heard of this "not alone under 12" rule before. Is that a law in your state or something? Or just your parents' rule? When I was a kid that was not the rule, by any means. When I was 8 I had a key to our apt and would spent the time between being dropped off by the school bus and mom getting home from work around 6 at home alone. When I was ten, we moved and I had to walk or ride my bike to and from school (nearly 3 miles each way) on my own and then be alone at home until my mom got home. I feel like it wasn't entirely abnormal back then -- or maybe in some communities now. My 8 yo has never been home alone for more than about five min, though, and he's told me he'd rather not even do that.

I think I'd feel okay about leaving my 8 yo in that situation, but I probably wouldn't go too far. A few mos ago I was leaving him at the Y for basketball practice and I'd take a walk while he was there, but I didn't feel terribly comfortable about it. If it had been story time or art or something calmer like that I would have been fine, but I was always scared he'd get hurt and I wouldn't be there. And then one time when I came back, he was on the bench, totally red faced and bleeding and I felt so bad! Oddly enough, though, I think I might still choose to go for a walk. I know he'd be taken care of, but I would feel bad for not being there.


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## CherryBombMama (Jan 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> meemee, I've never heard of this "not alone under 12" rule before. Is that a law in your state or something? Or just your parents' rule? When I was a kid that was not the rule, by any means. When I was 8 I had a key to our apt and would spent the time between being dropped off by the school bus and mom getting home from work around 6 at home alone. When I was ten, we moved and I had to walk or ride my bike to and from school (nearly 3 miles each way) on my own and then be alone at home until my mom got home. I feel like it wasn't entirely abnormal back then -- or maybe in some communities now. My 8 yo has never been home alone for more than about five min, though, and he's told me he'd rather not even do that.
> 
> I think I'd feel okay about leaving my 8 yo in that situation, but I probably wouldn't go too far. A few mos ago I was leaving him at the Y for basketball practice and I'd take a walk while he was there, but I didn't feel terribly comfortable about it. If it had been story time or art or something calmer like that I would have been fine, but I was always scared he'd get hurt and I wouldn't be there. And then one time when I came back, he was on the bench, totally red faced and bleeding and I felt so bad! Oddly enough, though, I think I might still choose to go for a walk. I know he'd be taken care of, but I would feel bad for not being there.


I know you weren't addressing me, but I have seen the 12 and under rule all over the place. In the malls, any place there is a "play area" or rest station, the ice rink, the parks... I live close to a major city, though. Maybe that's why?


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CherryBombMama*
> 
> I know you weren't addressing me, but I have seen the 12 and under rule all over the place. In the malls, any place there is a "play area" or rest station, the ice rink, the parks... I live close to a major city, though. Maybe that's why?


Weird! I have never noticed that. But may be it just hasn't registered because I'm pretty far from thinking of leaving him.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, when my DS was 9 he was left at the library for programs and activities. Now at 11 he is allowed to bike to the library by himself. (almost 2 miles each way- this is the distance he would need to travel to get to school if not homeschooled). DS started taking classes at the library around age 5-6 and I would stay in a different part of the library until he was about 7 or so. From 7-9 I would vary between drop off and staying. Now I am fully comfortable doing drop offs but I like to stay because that hour gives me time to browse the shelves, read, do paper work etc. However I have no issues with DS in the library etc.

Our library has a sign up that says 'children under the age of 9 must be accompanied by an adult'. This means you can not drop your kiddo off for the day etc. The librarian is not a babysitter, however you do not need to stay for programs etc.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

jayne yeah there are posts in a lot of places that specifically say what cherrybombmama said.

dd has been home for long periods of time - but always with the neighbors knowing.

she has been asleep, woke up - got herself breakfast (without turning on the stove but used a knife), got herself ready and then played games online and finished homework. she already knew from teh night before she would be alone and i left her a note. i was 10 mins away.

i mean i am not too happy about leaving her alone (not fearful about her but more about neighbors adn CPS). but its something she asks for. and is ok being on her own.

she has emergency knowledge and is a pretty responsible and careful child.

the library is one block away across a fairly busy main street. but the good news is it has lights and crosswalks. so she can even walk over there on her own. we've spent a lot of time on the road since she was 2 so she has excellent road safety knowledge. so i have full confidence in her. however i fear what the police or other adults will say.

its because of the 12 year rules i dont take for granted that dd can be alone.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

But in this instance, she isn't alone. She's with a librarian.

Our state has no laws about leaving kids home alone. We started to leave ds home alone for very short periods at 9, he took a Red Cross class about what to do when you're home alone, and at 10, I'm comfortable leaving him for a couple of hours. He enjoys the time to play uninterrupted Wii. We lock the doors and he knows how to get ahold of us, and which neighbors to go to if there's a problem. He won't answer the door, and he can't have friends over. So the "not alone until 12" would be a major pain for us. He really does not want to be dragged to his sister's choir, piano, etc. etc .


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> I just can't picture physically leaving the library while my 3-year-old went in. It's not a daycare center.


Only for story time or whatever, you can't just drop off a 3yo, you'd walk them to the story time and pick them up as soon as it's over. Age 8 is when you can just drop them off to wander unattended at the library near us.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96*
> 
> Wow! I have no idea where 3 year olds would be able to be dropped off for storytime or anything else, but around where I live, all pre-school programs pretty much say the parent has to be there (unless you are paying them to watch your child, i.e. parent's night out or something like that). Definitely all the storytimes in my area would expect the parent to be right there (not just in the building). And even if it was an organized class like sports or gymnastics where the kids go off by themselves with a teacher or coach, the parents are expected to be close at hand - within viewing distance. No drop offs. Since I don't have a 9 year old, I can't comment on how I would feel about that age group, but I'm just shocked to hear about the 3, 4, 5 year olds.....
> Sorry if I didn't really contribute to the OP's question - I just couldn't help but comment. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just shocked.


That's interesting, maybe it's a regional thing? My DS is just about 3 and lots of the things he & his friends have been going to are suddenly parent-free (as long as they are potty trained). Story time, yoga class, music class, gymnastics... some require parents to stay in the building & others expect or require parents to leave. In fact, we aren't going to some of our previous activities because I don't feel DS is ready to go alone yet and I too can't imagine physically leaving him there at this age so we are sticking to parent-child activities.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm in a small town, but my 9-year-old rides her bike alone to the library in good weather, so yeah I guess so.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

double post


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> The rule at our library is children under 10 are supposed to be supervised by an adult or responsible sibling. I understand the reasoning for the rule - it is not my job to watch kids.
> 
> ...


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

Either of my 9yo twin boys would be fine going to the library by themselves. Some of their friends? Not so much. I think it depends on the kid. But in general, I'd say yes, it's fine.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I would be fine with my 9yo child going to a structured activity/club meeting by herself. I would probably stay in the library, but that's because I like being in the library and I consider it a pita to drop her off, drive home, turn around, and pick her up. If it worked for me to run errands nearby while she was in the group, I'd feel fine with that.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> dd has been *home for long periods of time* - but always with the neighbors knowing.
> 
> she has been *asleep, woke up - got herself breakfast* (without turning on the stove but used a knife), got herself ready and then played games online and finished homework. she already knew from teh night before she would be alone and i left her a note. i was 10 mins away.


IMO, she is certainly safer being left "alone" with a responsible adult than *actually* alone at home. I really can't understand how you would leave her home alone for "long periods of time" and hesitate to let her take an adult led library class without you there.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> IMO, she is certainly safer being left "alone" with a responsible adult than *actually* alone at home. I really can't understand how you would leave her home alone for "long periods of time" and hesitate to let her take an adult led library class without you there.


Agreed. My understanding is that she's been staying home alone for a couple years now, so, the fact that parents of other 9 yo's drop their kids off at library events or sports practices shouldn't be shocking at all. At least they aren't left to fend for themselves.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Of course I would. I started leaving my daughter at the 3 to 6 year old story time when she was about 4. The library just asks that parents stay in the library. I don't see the problem here.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

My 9 yr. old was walking to the library, checking out books, and walking back by himself at 7.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I would have no problem leaving a 9-yo alone in a library for a structured classes/activity where someone is in charge. Unless it was a super long class/activity, I would probably stay in another part of the library simply because I *like* spending time in the library and because all the libraries are at least a 15 minute drive away, so I would rather stay there and read or work on my computer, etc than do extra driving. If I had nearby errands to do, I might drop off for that. I would not leave a 9-yo alone at the library if there wasn't a structured class or activity. We don't live within walking/biking distance of any libraries, so I hadn't really thought about a child biking/walking by herself. When we do go to the library, I do leave my 9-yo alone in the children's section for maybe 15 minutes while I browse the adult section for books for myself.

Around here, I would say that a lot of parents do end up staying/watching classes or activities, even for older kids, but I think that is mostly because I live in an area where things tend to be pretty spread out, so it doesn't always make a lot of sense to drop kids off. If it takes 15-20 minutes to drive someplace and the class is an hour, it's usually easier to just stay nearby, plus with so many people having smartphones, you can get a lot done (checking email, etc.) while waiting someplace.

Generally I prefer to just wait around outside or nearby, (unless it is a long class (ie. 2 hours) or super closeby home. Otherwise, I just end up running to a nearby store to "kill time" and usually end up spending money I shouldn't be spending. :bag


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I guess it would depend on the situation and the child for me to say yes.

I probably wouldn't completely leave the library if I had a 9 year old child there. I would likely be fine leaving him or her to go to another part of the library building though.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> IMO, she is certainly safer being left "alone" with a responsible adult than *actually* alone at home. I really can't understand how you would leave her home alone for "long periods of time" and hesitate to let her take an adult led library class without you there.


nope. i am shocked that the library will allow a 9 year old to be in the library alone. i personally have no problems with that. dd will do fine. she can even walk over there by herself.

i am shocked that a library will allow a 9 year old there without the parent in the building. even for a class.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> nope. i am shocked that the library will allow a 9 year old to be in the library alone. i personally have no problems with that. dd will do fine. she can even walk over there by herself.
> 
> i am shocked that a library will allow a 9 year old there without the parent in the building. even for a class.


I still can't see how you think the library *with an adult specifically responsible for her* is less safe than a 9 year old being left home alone. If a child can be responsible 100% for themselves (home alone) why would they not be able to be alone in a place with adults there that could help them? I really don't see how you can be shocked at the idea of leaving a 9 year old with an adult for a class but leave the same child (or younger) without an adult responsible for themselves for twice as long.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

And I want to make clear: I think a lot of this "leaving home alone/on their own in public" is a very individual thing based on both the family AND the child in question. I'm just commenting on the inconsistency I see in this (suprised that a 9 year old would be left in *a class* but perfectly willing to leave a 9 year old actually alone--- I would expect it to be opposite). Now, maybe that is just my prejudice (I mean, my kids were in preschool at 4 and it didn't seem wierd to me to leave them "alone" but I sure wouldn't have left them *actually* alone!) but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Of course, if there was an adult leader present, I wouldn't even consider that leaving the child alone--- they're with an adult!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Not shocked at all. I've never left my kids at anything. Mostly because we're in a big city and I don't want to get stuck in traffic, so it's easier to stay. However if a kid can take care of themselves at home for any period of time they certainly can be responsible in a library. Most kids that want to go to the library and hang out know it's not a play ground. While Librarians are not babysitters they're pretty good at reminding all patrons of the rules.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*


TiredX2 - I don't think it is inconsistent.

Being shocked that a library allows unattended 9 year olds is different than thinking your 9 year would be Ok going solo.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> TiredX2 - I don't think it is inconsistent.
> 
> Being shocked that a library allows unattended 9 year olds is different than thinking your 9 year would be Ok going solo.


Yes, I guess that is true. I was just looking at the OP:

Quote:


> * i did not realise a librarian would allow a 9 year old to attend a book club by herself.* i always associate alone with 12 year old.
> 
> i am not objecting. i am just fine with it.
> 
> *how would you feel if they said a 9 year old could stay in the library alone?* irrespective of whether your child is ready or not.


I guess i am just stuck in my assumption that the progression would be:

1) Child is only "okay" with parents

2) Child is "okay" with other adults

3) Child is "okay" alone/responsible for self

I'm surprised that someone would be okay with #3 and be suprised at the concept of #2 happening for the same aged child. Perhaps I'm just too wrapped up in the "schooled" mindset of thinking that if you are willing to leave your child 6-7 hours a day with an adult, why wouldn't you leave that same aged child for an hour with an adult for a class (or book club). Because most children do go to school, I think it would be a fairly normal/obvious thing to be "okay" with for an older than school aged child.

Still can't get my mind around leaving an under 9 year old for hours home alone but being shocked at having a child that age in a class without a parent. (If I could find the shrug smilie, I would put it here--- I'm obviously just missing something/ not getting something/ way off on my thinking, lol)


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## CherryBombMama (Jan 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> Still can't get my mind around leaving an under 9 year old for hours home alone but being shocked at having a child that age in a class without a parent. (If I could find the shrug smilie, I would put it here--- I'm obviously just missing something/ not getting something/ way off on my thinking, lol)


I think it is the idea that not all 9 year olds are mature enough to be left alone, at home or in a public place. The OPs daughter is mature enough to be left alone at home and to be left alone in a library. I think the OP is shocked that the library is okay with ALL 9 year olds, mature or not, to be left alone at the library. At age 9, I had never crossed the street by myself, let alone stayed in a public building. I would have been one of those kids crying in the corner. Haha.

At least, I hope I am not speaking wrongly on the OPs behalf


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AllisonR*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha Ha! Yes, it is to laugh.







Books take flight when less mature, impulse driven kids throw them around. Seven through nine years old is...first through third grade? From my experience just volunteering in my kids' classes, what with herd mentality, I wouldn't leave many of those kids alone together in the library, without a structured program led by an adult. Sure, some of them could hang out just reading or chatting in the kids' section, and clearly you know your kids so you are comfortable leaving your seven year old at the library. But I don't think anyone can guarantee that any theoretical seven year old can behave all the time, and it certainly isn't fair to the librarians to expect them to discipline misbehaving kids, nor would some parents appreciate another adult disciplining their child. So a parent shouldn't just consider their own kid's safety, but also the needs of the library.

Gymnastics seems a lot more structured than a book club. I can't imagine in a hundred years that a gym anywhere in North America would be open for business without a qualified, first aid-trained adult, not only on site, but directly involved. So maybe that isn't the best example? Quite possible I'm being too literal.

That said, would I leave my nine year old at a book club meeting at the library? Yes, absolutely. The meeting is led by an adult, maybe a teen.

Would I leave my nine year old alone at the library to read and hang out? Most likely not. Or maybe for a short time, like a half-hour.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CherryBombMama*
> 
> I think it is the idea that not all 9 year olds are mature enough to be left alone, at home or in a public place. The OPs daughter is mature enough to be left alone at home and to be left alone in a library. I think the OP is shocked that the library is okay with ALL 9 year olds, mature or not, *to be left alone at the library*. At age 9, I had never crossed the street by myself, let alone stayed in a public building. I would have been one of those kids crying in the corner. Haha.
> 
> At least, I hope I am not speaking wrongly on the OPs behalf


Oh, I didn't read that the librarian was saying to just leave the kid there, whenever, but that the child could go to the (adult led) book club. I saw it more like a class.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I work in a public library, so this is very interesting to me. FTR, my library doesn't have a formal policy on latch-key kids. I think the librarian did what she was supposed to for your dd, meemee. She made sure she knew how to contact you and your daughter was going to be in a structured class. I am positive that she assumed you would be there when the event was over and that your daughter wouldn't just be released to wander on her own or that any other child would not have someone there to pick them up. I would hope that no matter what any posted sign says, if a parent knows their child, they'll know whether or not doing something like this is appropriate for their child's level of maturity... whether they are 3 or 9 or 16. I'd hope that if the library offered something like this to a person who knows their child isn't ready for it, that the parent wouldn't do it just because the library said it was O.K. Ultimately, it's the parents' decision.

I admit that I'm a little shocked that you're shocked because you seem to be such an advocate for early independence, in general.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I admit that I'm a little shocked that you're shocked because you seem to be such an advocate for early independence, in general.










i know. a lot of 'shock' going on in these threads.

see i am an advocate for early independence when appropriate. if the child is ready and asking for it - yeah give it to them.

i am shocked that whereas in all other public places i CANT leave my child alone. yet there i can. i expected them to be stricter like all other places.

however i went and researched this a bit more. and its sad. there is a difference of how they treat the book club and the manga club. that is why they dont have a junior manga club. they have a teen one. book clubs have a few faithful followers. manga club is packed with a bunch of non regular children which is hard to manage. which i find sad. not too many reading books.

and yeah you are right velochic - its the library and its patrons. i dont see any kids running around or misbehaving. they are trying to encourage more kids to read. while this branch is huge its got its own core members who do things. so not too many outsiders in the activities. the previous library i was at is a whole different story. this library also has way more activities than the previous library i was at.

my dd is a whole another thing. i just introduced her stuff because i wanted to show that i dont object to it because i have left her alone myself.

i guess they assume if the child can read such a fat book (320 pages) and talk about it, they must be well behaved.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I live in a big city and I leave my dd (5) at classes all the time. And this is a reading group supervised by a librarian? I can't even imagine why it would be strange to leave a 9 year old in that situation.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
> 
> I live in a big city and I leave my dd (5) at classes all the time. And this is a reading group supervised by a librarian? I can't even imagine why it would be strange to leave a 9 year old in that situation.


at other libraries i have to drop dd to the event and pick her up. i dont have to do that for this event. they dont expect me to hang around the library. the librarian also knows we live a couple of blocks away and is ok with dd walking in and walking out by herself.

i havent had a chance to ask her if she will allow dd to roam the library alone. i know dd wants to volunteer there.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> nope. i am shocked that the library will allow a 9 year old to be in the library alone. i personally have no problems with that. dd will do fine. she can even walk over there by herself.
> 
> i am shocked that a library will allow a 9 year old there without the parent in the building. even for a class.


meemee, this makes no sense. You are totally ok with letting your 9 yo walk to the library, and be there by herself. But, you are totally shocked that the library allows this? Sounds like you are saying it is OK for your DD, but shocking for other 9 yo. I hope I am misreading this.


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## QHAmom (Mar 15, 2010)

My library has a sign inside the lobby, by the doors into the library that says children under 7 must be accompanied by an adult. The meeting rooms that groups use are on the other side of the lobby so I have let my kids who are over 7 go in by themselves while I'm in a LLL meeting, but I've never had any reason to leave the building while they're in there.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> the librarian at our local public library said dd could join the tween reading club. dd is a v. responsible 9 *whom the librarian has not met yet*.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> at other libraries i have to drop dd to the event and pick her up. i dont have to do that for this event. they dont expect me to hang around the library. *the librarian also knows we live a couple of blocks away and is ok with dd walking in and walking out by herself.*


So at first, you say they don't know your dd, but then you say they know where she lives and is OK with her walking there and being there without supervision. I think it's these types of contradicting statements that have me, and perhaps others so confused by what you're talking about. You let your child stay home alone (and have done so for years before I would even consider it for my own dd, who is the same age), yet you are shocked that they would allow her to be alone with adult supervision in a public area? That just seems so odd to me, so I'm still not understanding.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> So at first, you say they don't know your dd, but then you say they know where she lives and is OK with her walking there and being there without supervision. I think it's these types of contradicting statements that have me, and perhaps others so confused by what you're talking about. You let your child stay home alone (and have done so for years before I would even consider it for my own dd, who is the same age), yet you are shocked that they would allow her to be alone with adult supervision in a public area? That just seems so odd to me, so I'm still not understanding.


we are new there and they know where she lives because i had to update my address.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AllisonR*
> 
> Sounds like you are saying it is OK for your DD, but shocking for other 9 yo. I hope I am misreading this.


i am shocked that in a city that has posted signs in a lot of public places that kids under 12 years old have to be supervised there is one place that IS allowing it. shocked in the sense of surprised. i thought i would have to at least stay in the building which is not the case. and therefore i was curious if this was the norm elsewhere or not. and would you be ok with this.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

This just made me think- one day this fall my son was playing at a friend of mines house in the yard while I was inside... He ran off with another kid- saying that teenagers were chasing him- they ran the two blocks to the library- and were in there awhile he says- I ended up having to cal the police because I could not find him anywhere!! He was picked up about a block from her house- he had a toy gun and was barefoot.

UGH. Of course he ran into people we used to go to church with there.... anyhow- off topic but library and 8 yo ...

To answer the question- I would let ds go alone Drop him off pick him up- I would not with dd- even at nine- she just is not cautious about anything.... maybe my feelings will change but at 6 she is very irresponsible.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

I think it'd be messed up for a library to have a "no unattended 9-year-olds allowed" policy. Certainly, if the kid is causing trouble, they should call the parent to come get him (or call the police if the parent is unavailable or just can't be bothered), but that should apply to any age.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I haven't read every response, but a 3-page thread probably covers the spectrum.

When my kids were about that age (9 y.o.), we lived 2 short residential blocks from the public library. It never occurred to me that they shouldn't go there on their own. Since they took the school bus to school, it was one small way to encourage some independence.

This thread reminds me of an incident. I recall going to the library for storytime with a neighbour and her son when my ds was 3 y.o. Her son was about the same age. We had recently moved into the area and I didn't know her well. She was a family doctor and we met at the local park and she seemed nice. It was our first time attending storytime, although I had been to the library with my kids fairly often so they were familiar with the place. For storytime, parents weren't invited in to listen with the children, although they remained in the library. My neighbour was furious at being excluded but didn't object and let her son listen alone. She was so angry she wouldn't speak, not even to me, and when we returned home, she kind of dumped us out of her car in a hurry and drove off in huff. She had this weird, deep, quiet rage that was really disturbing because it was so out of proportion to the event, particularly since I wasn't responsible for the exclusion. Anyway, we didn't speak much after that. (Before this incident, she also remarked how her ds would like a sister and kept "suggesting" that I should leave my newborn dd with her, repeatedly in a kind of insistent way that was also disturbing......)


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## AuntRayRay (Aug 18, 2004)

I would say a responsible 9 year old that wanted to be, yes it would be ok with me, now the authorities...another story. I grew up in NJ and 12 was the earliest that they were "allowed" to be alone. I have dealt with the state and would surely not risk it as authorities can blow up harmless situations. So i would say it would depend on the law in my state.


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## amiemarie7 (Feb 25, 2008)

if this was a "class setting" where i walk her to the door, and then am waiting for her when they come out, i see no problem with it. i think most of the posters are visualizing that situation, similar to a dance class.

libraries in general wont notice if a child is really there by themselves anyway, unless the child is causing a problem. a parent could always be a few aisles away. i imagine all the signs really are reminders so parents dont use places as daycares. some parents feel that if they drop their child off at a place with any other adults, that those adults in some way should be expected to watch their child. like lets say, you drop off your 9 year old at the front door, they walk in, then walk out after you drive away. some parents would try to say the librarians should have been supervising them and not let it happen. the signs are often a good way to remove liability.

we live in an area that is not city, but its well populated suburban homes. we could allow our children at 2nd grade to walk over a mile to school. no one does though. i think at 9, a child should only be left in a supervised setting such as a structured class, where a parent will be there promptly at the end of class. my husband is a police officer. we often see known sex offenders at barnes and noble and toys r us. unless they are specifically forbid by terms of their release, they are still allowed, or will just go anyway to many child friendly places. no one knows or is checking who is a sex offender when they walk through the door. no matter how often we talk to our children, ior how mature and well behaved they are, we cannot truley prepare them enough for a skilled manipulator who looks safe as can be. or even a teenager who may be seen as another kid. it would be wrong of us to say "she wont go with anyone" or "she would know.." these are kids, we cannot expect them to know what to do in every situation. it is our duty to avoid situations which might be a danger. i think often residents dont realize safe, smaller towns have many offenders, either residing there or just visiting. and again, we live in a pretty safe area. and things are much different than they used to be, so we cannot compare what we did as kids.

and not meant to offend, but one could easily see "early independance" as indifference or neglect


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

meemee are you worried about someone reporting you child abandonment? is that why you feel comfortable leaving her home alone but question leaving her in public, even with a librarian/teacher?


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Eh... what about leaving a kid in Target? I almost did two days ago when one had the case of the whines. I literally about faced and ran for the door. Damn kids followed me. Too bad DD1 always remembers where I park too!


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## TerrahMother (Apr 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> This is my opinion, for my family, but I just don't consider most 9 year olds responsible enough to be responsible for themselves. As in, they could not take care of themselves in an emergency. Because of that, I wouldn't leave them in a situation where they would need to. If I knew someone at the library, I would be fine leaving a 9 year old there (with the understanding with the other adult that the child could come to them for help). I just don't think it's generally okay to expect the librarian to do that. I figure that the recommendation (around here at least) for being left alone is 11 years old.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> I agree with this. We have been involved with two libraries. One is serving a larger community and has many classes a large user-base and I would not feel comfortable leaving a 9 year old there alone. It's not that I'm worried about safety as much as how responsible he/she'd be with limited supervision. A teacher or librarian is not a babysitter.
> 
> The current library we go to is a community place where they know you and your whole family and if you call to renew your books, they know who you are by your voice. I would leave my child there because I know my child and we would have a lot of communication to see if it was working out.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CherryBombMama*
> 
> I live in CA. I could see leaving my future 9 yr old in a class in a library while I wandered the library, but I don't think I would feel comfortable with leaving the premises while a 9 yr old was allowed to wander the entire library. I have worked in a library, and I have seen many strange people that I would not feel comfortable being around my boys without myself present. I have also had a man come up to me when I was working, about age 17-18, with a entourage of men standing behind him, tell me that if I was to "come with him" he would "take care of me" and "give me everything I wanted." I was scared speechless but thankfully some male coworkers chased them out of there.
> 
> In California, where I live, I would not leave a 9 year old alone in a place where no one is really looking out for them.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CherryBombMama*
> 
> I think it is the idea that not all 9 year olds are mature enough to be left alone, at home or in a public place. The OPs daughter is mature enough to be left alone at home and to be left alone in a library. I think the OP is shocked that the library is okay with ALL 9 year olds, mature or not, to be left alone at the library. At age 9, I had never crossed the street by myself, let alone stayed in a public building. I would have been one of those kids crying in the corner. Haha.
> 
> At least, I hope I am not speaking wrongly on the OPs behalf


The above quotes collectively express my sentiments on the issue.

I would look at the individual person and determine whether it would be good for both of us if he/she were left to be at the library, or any other place.

That said, I deliberately did not use the word "alone" because I would still be, at least, a wallflower, just to provide any backup should the need arise.









There are inappropriate characters that visit public places, both young and old alike. Keeping my offspring in my radar is in the best interest of everyone. And I do mean everyone (including any bully, riffraff, or overbearing bigger person that would feel my wrath).


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## CraftyDoulaMom (Apr 20, 2010)

We live in a very small town so our policies are probably different than those in large cities, especially since the children's librarian knows just about every kid that walks through the door. Kids 3 and under have to have a parent in the same room with them, kids 4-7 need to have a parent in the building, and kids 8 and up can be there alone so long as the librarian has the parent's contact information. And although she knows the policies she also knows most of the kids well enough to know who can/needs to be an exception on both side- there are kids who despite being old enough are not mature enough to be there alone and there are kids that are not old enough who do fine on their on their own.

It's been 23 years since I was 9 so things have changed quite a bit but my mom used to leave myself and my 7yr old brother alone in the kids section of the main downtown branch of the Multnomah County Library while she would get her hair cut and run a few errands. We were probably there 2-3hrs at a time. We loved it and never strayed as far as I can remember. I think I was 12 or 13 though before she let me take the bus there by myself.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> meemee are you worried about someone reporting you child abandonment? is that why you feel comfortable leaving her home alone but question leaving her in public, even with a librarian/teacher?


in general yes. as a single coparenting mom that is always at the back of my mind. in this case no. neither do i question leaving her alone with the librarian.

the point is dd has always wanted to be alone in public. go over to her friends house a couple of blocks away, go over to the corner store a couple of blocks away, take the public bus to school, even shop at the grocery store by herself, get a sandwich from the sandwich shop by herself, etc. i would have had no problems myself letting her walk but i didnt trust others calling CPS. the stores of course had the 12 year has to be accompanied by adult policy. no where here is a child allowed to be truly alone. they can be under the supervision of the teacher. even a swim class here, the parent is not allowed to drop and go do their thing. they are asked to stay there for a 9 year old. other sports yes they can leave their child with the coaches.

so this is the first time i have come across a situation where i dont even have to be in the building. that to me is amazing. esp. since a different branch wont let us do that. they dont have a book club but they have 'building' class and the parent has to be on the premises.

i am elated - shocked - that finally dd finds someplace in public that she can be completely alone.

however because of the fear of child abandonment i wont let dd walk there alone and walk back even though i know she is capable of it. if she walks with a bunch of other kids i will let her.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

I am generally fine with it. I think kids need more freedom.


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## ChandlerKate (Feb 11, 2011)

This is a timely discussion for me because just recently, I left my 3 year old son at the front desk of our library to run out to the car where my husband was waiting with our younger son to grab his library card. I returned in less than 30 seconds (really, it's a small library branch with a tiny parking lot) and found a few librarians hovering near my son like he was some abandoned child. Surely the librarians at the check out desk were well aware that I'm stepping out for a few seconds, but despite that, they seemed so so worried. I thought that their concern over a boy sitting quietly reading a book by himself for 30 seconds seemed disproportional. I live in a suburb of Phoenix, nice area, I don't know the library rules on parental supervision. We just opened an account at that library that day. I grew up in another country where my mom left me in the stroller in front of the store she shopped at. That was a common thing to do there, so I may have more naive beliefs about these things. Statistically, chances of a child being abducted in a public place, by a complete stranger are very very slim. I am of the mindset that we cannot live in paralyzing fear all the time. In this case, using good judgement is essential and should be based in part on your environment and children's level of development and temperament.


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## giraffee (Sep 30, 2009)

We also lived in the understanding that 12 is the earliest that you can leave your child unattended at home or in a public place without adult supervision. Once he stayed in the electronics section of Toys-R-Us while we went to look at the baby items and he was told that he can't be there without an adult and had to phone us immediately to "pick him up" even though we were all off 15 meters away. He started taking bus home from school at 12, but we ask him to phone right after school and when he arrives home. As for leaving three year olds in classes - mine is very attached and I only look for courses that allow for a parent to be present. I have only seen story hours for little ones and parents always wait around for those, so I don't actually feel that it is adult supervision from the librarian. They do their best to engage the child in reading and playing, but the responsibility of taking that child to the washroom if they suddenly need to go is still with a parent. Obviously, with the older kids the expectation is that they can behave properly and not run around screaming - which is in fact exactly what my now 13y.o and 3 y.o. do every so often in the library.


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## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

I don't have a problem with this. I'd likely take my son to the location of the club and let him know where he could find me. If it were that large of a library I don't think I'd just drop him off at the entrance unless he was familiar with the location and had a friend or two to walk with.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChandlerKate*
> 
> This is a timely discussion for me because just recently, I left my 3 year old son at the front desk of our library to run out to the car where my husband was waiting with our younger son to grab his library card. I returned in less than 30 seconds (really, it's a small library branch with a tiny parking lot) and found a few librarians hovering near my son like he was some abandoned child. Surely the librarians at the check out desk were well aware that I'm stepping out for a few seconds, but despite that, they seemed so so worried. I thought that their concern over a boy sitting quietly reading a book by himself for 30 seconds seemed disproportional. I live in a suburb of Phoenix, nice area, I don't know the library rules on parental supervision. We just opened an account at that library that day. I grew up in another country where my mom left me in the stroller in front of the store she shopped at. That was a common thing to do there, so I may have more naive beliefs about these things. Statistically, chances of a child being abducted in a public place, by a complete stranger are very very slim. I am of the mindset that we cannot live in paralyzing fear all the time. In this case, using good judgement is essential and should be based in part on your environment and children's level of development and temperament.


3 is a little young.

Did you ask the librarian if she would watch your son for a minute? Please do so in the future - anything else is an imposition.

Honestly, if I saw an unattended 3 yr old, I would go visit them (hover) until the parent came back.

Many young children attempt to find "mommy' if she disappears. At least once a month I follow a toddler or preschooler into the hall, because they are looking for mommy (often in the washroom, and they usually have asked me if I will watch their child for a minute). There is a door to the parking lot there, and that is a danger.


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## Camille2433 (Jul 11, 2007)

I work in a medium sized public library and understand that parents may feel the library is a safe place, but the truth is we can't see what children are doing at all times, and don't know who is a safe adult for them to be with or not, and cannot monitor all of their computer use. If you wouldn't drop your child off at your local mall, don't drop them off at the library! Sexual predators know that parents do this all the time, and it would be easy to groom a child at the library as you could begin talking with them about books or the computer game that they are playing.. the possibilities are endless even if the actual abuse doesn't take place there.

I wouldn't say that the library is any different than a mall safety wise, it is a public place where anyone can come for good or bad motives.

Of course in a structured program it is safe to drop off your child at the programming room and then leave as the librarian will only let your young child go home with you, and they are supervised at all times. Which is I think what this question is about, but others have gotten into the general idea of letting a 9 year old attend by themselves and hang out. I think it is very o.k. to let your 9 year old attend a program by themselves just as you would a class at the YMCA etc.

At nine, I did go to the library by myself to get a book, but there was a time limit and I had to check in. I also was allowed to walk home from school with my friends, which I can't even picture my daughter doing now. I think that it was a more innocent time, but there are and always were a small minority of people who use our trust in the goodness of others to exploit children. So I guess what is appropriate would depend on the maturity level and streetwise level of your child.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I was going to post along the lines of what Camille said. If you wouldn't leave her at the mall alone, don't leave her at the library either. Although it's for a group activity that takes place during a specific time, so I think I'd be okay with that. But I just picture one of the two libraries that is close to us, and think that I wouldn't even let my 12 year old stay there unattended, like to do a project or something. There are just too many people who appear to live there and there are too many blind corners where no one goes. The other location is better but I'd still be nervous b/c the computers are way off at the opposite end of the building from the desk, and there is no way to see/hear if there is trouble over there.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Honestly, if I saw an unattended 3 yr old, I would go visit them (hover) until the parent came back.


Yes, I would too. Or at least keep an eye on them from a distance (I probably wouldn't approach them because if they were anything like my ds they would totally start freaking out). It's happened a couple of times that I've seen really little kids seemingly unattended in busy (urban) places and I've just surreptitiously kept an eye on them until it became obvious who they were with. I'd love to think another mama would do the same if they saw my (4yo) ds "by himself".

As for the original question "would I leave my 9yo alone at the library?"... well... my oldest is only 7, but yes, I would leave her at the library if she was taking part in an adult-led class. And I would leave her in the children's section while I went to the adult section. I would not drop her off at the library just to browse (ie. not in a class or organized activity).


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

You don't mention that you said anything to the librarians. How did they know how long you planned to be gone, or where you had gone? It's really good that they were paying attention--it means they care about what happens to kids in the library.

I don't imagine your mom would have left you in the stroller in front of her favorite store if she thought the storekeepers and other shoppers were indifferent to whether some other mom walked off with you.

There's a really big difference between leaving a child at the library for a program, or under the librarians' supervision, and just leaving them on their own. A 9-year-old might have the maturity to be left alone in the children's room to use the computer in there--my son won't even let me leave the room without him for a second, so I don't know!

In general, I think the OP is confused by the behavior of the librarians at her college, who treat her daughter like she isn't even a sentient being. This is a different situation--a program for kids her age. I'm a little more shocked by the college librarians, frankly.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChandlerKate*
> 
> This is a timely discussion for me because just recently, I left my 3 year old son at the front desk of our library to run out to the car where my husband was waiting with our younger son to grab his library card. I returned in less than 30 seconds (really, it's a small library branch with a tiny parking lot) and found a few librarians hovering near my son like he was some abandoned child. Surely the librarians at the check out desk were well aware that I'm stepping out for a few seconds, but despite that, they seemed so so worried. I thought that their concern over a boy sitting quietly reading a book by himself for 30 seconds seemed disproportional. I live in a suburb of Phoenix, nice area, I don't know the library rules on parental supervision. We just opened an account at that library that day. I grew up in another country where my mom left me in the stroller in front of the store she shopped at. That was a common thing to do there, so I may have more naive beliefs about these things. Statistically, chances of a child being abducted in a public place, by a complete stranger are very very slim. I am of the mindset that we cannot live in paralyzing fear all the time. In this case, using good judgement is essential and should be based in part on your environment and children's level of development and temperament.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I went rather a long way to the library by myself at 9 and spent as long as I wanted there. I would allow my children (7 & 8) to go there on their own now if it was not across a highway. I don't understand what the world's coming to. The library is a great space for kids to be real people.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I look for books while my DD does library programs but I wouldn't just leave because that isn't allowed. They have security guards and have called the police when kids are left alone at the library so it is too big of a risk. If they allowed it I would leave and do my own thing as I do for many of her other activities and have for years.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChandlerKate*
> 
> Surely the librarians at the check out desk were well aware that I'm stepping out for a few seconds, but despite that, they seemed so so worried. I thought that their concern over a boy sitting quietly reading a book by himself for 30 seconds seemed disproportional. I live in a suburb of Phoenix, nice area, I don't know the library rules on parental supervision. We just opened an account at that library that day. *I grew up in another country where my mom left me in the stroller in front of the store she shopped at. T*hat was a common thing to do there, so I may have more naive beliefs about these things. .


It's considered child abandonment here. You have to change to doing things the American Way or you could easily have CPS called.

One of my friends is an investigator for CPS and she has had to sit down with moms who are now in the system and explain to them that in the US, we don't leave small children unattended in public places AT ALL.

Seriously -- this is a huge deal. This is not about your judgment about whether or not this is safe. This about about whether you want CPS in your life, and you don't. No body wants CPS in their life.

Back to the OP -- at 9 I wouldn't have left my kids in the library where we live. It's not to say that another child wouldn't be ready at that age, or a smaller library in a different city might be different, but not in our situation. The first time I left my kids at the library without me was last summer and they were 13 and 14 at the time. But we have a lot of homeless people at the library, and it isn't overly close to our house anyway. Going there without me doesn't make a lot of sense. I believe our library has a policy that children under 12 aren't to be left, but it very, very welcoming to teens and has a special room for them set aside from the main library. They encourage teens to use it as a meeting room/hang out.

But a nine year old is a child, not a teen.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

My ds has been riding his bike to the library since he was 9. Last summer I let him(11) and dd (6) ride their bikes there alone. They loved being "big" and it didn't even occur to me that it wasn't an ok thing to do. I used to ride my bike 3 miles to the library and stay there all day in the summer.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

meh, depends upon the kid.

when i was 9, my mom worked downtown and sometimes in the summer i had to go to work with her- she let me walk to the library, check out stuff, and walk back to where she worked.

many libraries have a policy against kids under a particular age being left unsupervised, though. sometimes people do treat public libraries like daycare, leaving their little ones and expecting someone else to manage them for an unspecified amount of time. it can be a problem, but it can also be a problem when kids don't get to do things on their own that they are quite capable of.


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## forestmushroom (Sep 6, 2011)

I don't think it is unsafe for a 9 year-old to attend and event at the library alone... I often let my 7 year-old, almost 8 year-old run into the library while I am next door at a cafe with his little brother...

But also, kids can have a variety of heights/sizes and perhaps the librarian assumed you child was older, if they have a policy about age... My almost 11 year-old is the same size as many 8/9 year-olds. It often hard for strangers to judge the ages of children they don't know... and he was reading the warrior books at 7/8...

So, she can invite, but its still up to the parent, yk?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I don't think every one in the thread is talking about the same thing.

I think it is very different to drop a child off at an activity and pick them up when the activity is over than to just let them hang out with no supervision. I also think traveling to and from a public place is yet another, different thing.

I don't see anything surprising about a 9 year old attending an activity and mom leaving the building.

It is against the rules at our library (and many others) for children under 12 to just hang out without a parent.

I find the idea of a 9 year old traveling without an adult odd -- it would not be the norm where I live (mid-sized American city). At all. Not even close.

However, we lived for a while in a small town in Canada and children much younger than that traveled around town without adults.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Well, I learned something new yesterday. It turns out that the library where I work does have a formal policy. I obviously have not read the personnel manual very thoroughly. So, for our mid-sized library, the policy is children 8 and under have to be with a parent, including to stay in the library for story time. 9 and above can be there without a parent. However, they do really evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. I was told that they have called parents on a 12 year old before because they were not respecting the rules and they've had kids as young as 7 there with an older sibling.

Still, we did discuss the fact that the librarians don't know everyone (we're too big) and they don't keep an eye on kids except to make sure they are observing the rules. It was mutually agreed that being at the library is no safer than letting a kid go to the store by themselves. It's not as *crowded*, but we definitely have some weirdos that come in, so something can happen. I leave dd there all the time and have done for years, but I work there and she hangs out with my co-workers. I don't think I'd let her, even now at 10, at the city library alone or even our home library, which is about twice the size and patron base as the one I work in.


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## crystal_buffaloe (Apr 30, 2010)

I didn't read through all of the responses, but I voted









Just wanted to chime in that I walked, alone, to the library (a little under 1/2 a mile away) as a 9 year old all.the.time. Seriously, probably 4-5 times a week in the summer. Once, I fell down on the way home and skinned my knee (because I was reading a book whilst walking and tripped over a tree root) and a stranger came out of her house and cleaned me up (all outside, on the sidewalk) and offered to call my mom, but I just finished walking home. My town has fewer than 2,000 people and basically no traffic. I was on a first-name basis with the librarian.

Edited to add: I was frequently the only person at the library besides the librarian, so no real risk of being preyed upon there.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Our youngest is 9yo and she can definitely go to the library alone. It's usually not for a class, but I do set a time limit generally so they don't mill around bored goofing off after a long while. Her older brother at 12yo (an aspie) has only been allowed the same this year as he has a lot of difficulty with boundaries--he couldn't handle it at 9yo. All that said, we live about 2 blocks from our library and dh and I run a retail business on the same block as the library and we live in a fairly small city where all the librarians know my kids by name. It could depend. I voted yes anyway because for the most part I think yes especially for a formal class.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

so thursday afternoon was movie afternoon. the last harry potter. dd just HAD to go. so i went in to talk to the librarian. it was a different librarian altogether. i asked her if dd can watch the movie by herself and i go home. so dd would watch the movie by herself. librarian said it was upto me. there is no supervision during movie time. so she reminded me there would be no staff at the community room with is right next to the gate. she said she personally wouldnt do it, but it was upto me.

so i left dd there. and then came back to pick her up. i kinda sign languaged to her where we would be, but i think she was too intent on the movie. so while i read and waited for the movie to finish i got engrossed in the book. so i went looking for her and she was in the children's section perusing the titles.

this is not the main branch of the library but it is one of their biggest branches. there is always a tonne of people in there. however what i found very interesting is that this library in the afternoon and early evening is full of kids and teens. i see them crossing the road alone and be in the library alone. so maybe this branch because of its youth members have a different take on supervision than other libraries.

thanks Velochic for checking the official policy.

oh and btw we are new there. so the librarian had never met my dd before. however dd is a big kid and she easily passes off for a tween.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Personally, I would plan to stay in the building. How long can book club possibly be, first off? Second, I am of the mindset of the "what if?" Where I live, the libraries we go to are pretty far from anything else I'd go to, like the grocery store. What if I got in a car wreck and couldn't get back to my child? He would be scared, and it's not the librarian's responsibility. But here, the preschool storytimes and the puppet shows things like that allow the parents to leave the child in the room at the program while parents browse. Preschool storytime is 3-5. I personally have only done the 3-5 storytime a couple times. I've noticed at these things, lots of parents are in the room, if not right next to their kids.

MAYBE I would walk downtown if I was leaving a child at something at the downtown library here.

Mine are 7.5.3.1 and I would stay in the room if I took any of them to storytime or anything right now. Even just the 7 and 5. I've taken my 7 yr. old to play Wii at one branch, he goes in the room alone. He still comes to find me and have me watch him play a set. He doesn't want me to not be there for long!


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Wow, I didn't know there were still places where anyone would leave a 9 year old alone in a library. There was a case in the last place I lived (Redmond, WA) of a child of 7 being molested at the library, and after that they made a rule about not leaving children (not sure the age but it was something like 12) alone in the library. I would think a book club might have an adult running it which would be totally different. My almost 9 year old would not be comfortable being left at the library for a book club, but he has separation anxiety.

On a related topic, we have been reading some of the Beverly Cleary Books, and often kids as young as 9 are left alone or allowed to walk around the neighborhood alone. The books date mostly from the 50s and 60s, a few from the 70s, so maybe things have changed, or maybe Portland is really that kind of town still.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pookietooth*
> 
> On a related topic, we have been reading some of the Beverly Cleary Books, and often kids as young as 9 are left alone or allowed to walk around the neighborhood alone. The books date mostly from the 50s and 60s, a few from the 70s, so maybe things have changed, or maybe Portland is really that kind of town still.


This was pretty typical when I was growing up in the 70's in a city on the other side of the country but that's actually pretty similar in size to Portland. Most, well really all as far as I know, kids were free to roam the neighborhood from a pretty young age. I remember doing so from as young as 7. Lots of times me and my best friend had her younger sister with us who would have been 5, although she couldn't go as far as us. No one thought this unusual as far as I know. By the time I was 8 or 9, I was walking several blocks to a business district with a library and shops, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends. Again, no one batted an eyelash.

Before we had kids, my husband and I couldn't figure out why people in our neighborhood were walking similar aged kids to the bus stop in our quiet residential area. Then once we had kids, we realized how much parenting had changed although I don't think the world is any less safe now.

edited for spelling


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Before we had kids, my husband and I couldn't figure out why people in our neighborhood were walking similar aged kids to the bus stop in our quiet residential area. Then once we had kids, we realized how much parenting had changed although I don't think the world is any less safe now.


Actually, I believe that statistically the world is far SAFER than it was in "the good old days." We only perceive that things are somehow much more dangerous and scary.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pookietooth*
> 
> There was a case in the last place I lived *(Redmond, WA)* of a child of 7 being molested at the library, and after that they made a rule about not leaving children (not sure the age but it was something like 12) alone in the library. I would think a book club might have an adult running it which would be totally different. My almost 9 year old would not be comfortable being left at the library for a book club, but he has separation anxiety.
> 
> On a related topic, we have been reading some of the Beverly Cleary Books, and often kids as young as 9 are left alone or allowed to walk around the neighborhood alone. The books date mostly from the 50s and 60s, a few from the 70s, so maybe things have changed, or maybe Portland is really that kind of town still.


What!?!?! That is where I live (the Redmond library is the library we use all the time). When did that happen?


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I think it happened two years ago. It was in the local paper, the Redmond Reporter. My ds was 7 at the time and he's almost 9 now. I can't find it on Google but it struck me at the time because I didn't realize people ever left their kids alone there. Hmm, but I did find this article from the same time:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/theblotter/2013203869_police_two_girls_fondled_at_bo.html


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

If the program was supervised with sign in and out, I would do it, but I don't feel that my son is ready otherwise, and he's 9.

I don't know about your library, but it seems that most libraries attract a lot of homeless people...think about it....free A/C, shelter from rain, free bathrooms, free chairs to sleep on, free computers, books, music, etc. Many homeless people are mentally ill and/or have addiction problems. We used to live on the same street as the library and weird people were always knocking on our door, asking for handouts or asking if they could do any work around the yard. One man asked if I had a weight for his fishing pole...he had no shirt on and sores all over him...another guy asked if I could tell him where the police station was, and he was on foot...there was the lady with several small children that wanted to put them to work raking our yard for money.

I saw an old man talking to himself outside the library once and he had this lost look in his eyes. He took out a bottle of mustard from his bag and started rubbing it all over his hands. Then he took out a pair of scissors and started fondling them...I called the police because I was afraid he could hurt someone or himself, but they said they couldn't do anything.

I was attacked by a mentally ill person while walking home from school when I was 15 (my neighborhood was very safe...strictly residential, no crime...this guy just simply fell through the cracks of the system. Institution let him out for a visitation weekend and he didn't return and they never called authorities to bring him back in). Because I have a past experience with being attacked and because of the bizarre people that hang out at my library, and because my son is not ready to be independent yet, I would say no, unless it was a structured, supervised activity...but your situation may be different.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
> 
> Actually, I believe that statistically the world is far SAFER than it was in "the good old days." We only perceive that things are somehow much more dangerous and scary.


Yeah, I think a lot of it is due to mass media coverage starting with a couple of highly publicized cases in the late 70s/early 80s and now the internet. I fully admit to falling victim to irrational fears after hearing about such stories. I read about an incident on this very board a few of years ago that I still can't shake. I think about almost every night when I'm locking up the house even thought I know it's so statistically unlikely it's not worth fretting over. Between that and the changed social norms, I don't see my kids having the same freedom in childhood that I did which I find kind of sad.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Between that and the changed social norms, I don't see my kids having the same freedom in childhood that I did which I find kind of sad.


We can fight back, push back about these social norms.

I have seen too many teenagers be, in my opinion, completely incompetent ... can't navigate anywhere (never rode their bikes by themselves), unwilling to walk, bike ride or take a bus; and the overweight statistics for my state are shocking.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmarroq*
> 
> If the program was supervised with sign in and out, I would do it, but I don't feel that my son is ready otherwise, and he's 9.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I'm trying really hard to let this go but something about it really bothers me. It feels like you are stigmatizing homeless people & those who are mentally ill.







I guess given your experience it makes sense for you to be afraid (and I'm so sorry you had to go through that), but most homeless or mentally ill people are harmless or only a danger to themselves...


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## TerrahMother (Apr 21, 2010)

Libraries? what about popular stores?

Yay for this seven-year-old who fended off a possible abductor in a major box store:

http://gma.yahoo.com/video/parenting-26594265/little-girl-fights-off-abductor-in-walmart-28242481.html


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I havent read the entire thread, but I would totally leave a 9 year old at the library alone. With a cell phone. When I was in 5th grade (around 9-10) I went to our library alone, and I remember thinking how awful my parents were because they wouldnt drop me off at the HUGE mall with my friends to walk around by ourselves and eat in the food court. Now that, I cant imagine doing until my kid is at least 13 or 14.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm trying really hard to let this go but something about it really bothers me. It feels like you are stigmatizing homeless people & those who are mentally ill.
> 
> ...


Sorry! I thought it might come across that way. I mentioned that I was worried about addicts as well as mentally ill people.... but I know that I rambled on about all the "weird" folks in my neighborhood too...I went off on a tangent and didn't mean to connect the two.

I know that we will come across mentally ill and addicted people everywhere in life, but since my library is known to attract them, I am able to have a little bit of control over his chances of running into a dangerous situation or witnessing something disturbing while he is unsupervised (at least until he is a little older and able to understand the dangers). If I know the "chances" are higher of something disturbing happening in a particular place, I try to be with my child when he has to go to that place for now.

Sorry if I sound like I am stigmatizing. I am sure there are many homeless addicts and mentally ill people who are not a threat.

I do not blame the man who attacked me when I was a girl at all. It was not his fault. He attacked many people over the years that he was in and out of hospitals. It's a shame we can't do more for homeless people who need mental healthcare and addiction recovery help in this country....so many fall through the cracks....but that's a whole other thread!


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## chenchen (Dec 30, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm trying really hard to let this go but something about it really bothers me. It feels like you are stigmatizing homeless people & those who are mentally ill.
> 
> ...


It didn't strike me that way. It struck me as good judgment. A nine year old isn't qualified to make the judgment as to whether or not other people's mental health issues or substance abuse problems make them harmful or harmless. As such, dropping her off in a place where such people congregate is an exercise in poor judgment. I find that to be a valid point to the discussion.

It doesn't necessarily speak to the thread starter's circumstances, but it is at least applicable to the library of the person who posted, and might be something to consider for others using this thread to stretch their own parameters for their children's independence.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> This was pretty typical when I was growing up in the 70's in a city on the other side of the country but that's actually pretty similar in size to Portland. Most, well really all as far as I know, kids were free to roam the neighborhood from a pretty young age. I remember doing so from as young as 7. Lots of times me and my best friend had her younger sister with us who would have been 5, although she couldn't go as far as us. No one thought this unusual as far as I know. By the time I was 8 or 9, I was walking several blocks to a business district with a library and shops, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends. Again, no one batted an eyelash.


My sister (a year younger than me), a friend (a year older than me), and I used to catch the bus across town to watch movies, when I was no more than seven. It was about a half hour bus ride. We also used to walk up to the local rec centre to go swimming, without an adult. That was...10 blocks, almost exactly, and we had to cross on of the major streets in our municipality. I wouldn't let my kids do that, but our municipality has also grown by a huge amount since the early 70s (dh has noticed it, even in the 10 years he's been here, and it had changed massively even before that). I don't worry much about perverts and kidnappings and such. I do worry about traffic.

Nobody ever batted any eyelash at any of it. It was pretty normal back then. We also hung out with all the neighbourhood kids, and we all ranged all over the place, within about a 2-3 block area. I don't remember exactly how old I was when I started doing that, but I know I did it for at least a couple of years, and we moved out of there right about the time I turned eight. Actually...we used to go down to the pool at the park without an adult sometimes, too. It was about 4 blocks from our house. Most of the kids were allowed to go there, although we all had certain rules about how many people had to be in the group, and things like that. I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do that, either. But, I honestly think my parents were a lot saner than I am about these things.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chenchen*
> 
> A nine year old isn't qualified to make the judgment as to whether or not other people's mental health issues or substance abuse problems make them harmful or harmless.


this is not always true. there are exceptions to the rule. just coz they are children does not mean they dont 'know'. i dont know how they 'know' but they sure 'know'.

some 9 year olds, heck even 2, 3 or even 4 year olds have better judgement of 'safe' people. i am not saying this is the majority but just saying sometimes we need to trust our kids and know them.

some like me when i was a kid and my kid has this ability to know 'unsafe' people. i have no idea how i did it, or how my dd does it. but i trust this instinct of hers. my mom would tell me even as a one year old there were some people i would not go to. i would cry and run from them. they looked 'good' in everyway - great jobs, etc. good citizens. and later they would find something was up with them (not necessarily pedophiles - but perhaps big scammers).

dd is like that. which is why i trust her instincts over mine. every. single time she has been right. i would have missed many opportunities if i had gone with my instincts rather than taking a chance with her. i have been wrong, but she has been right every single time.


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## chenchen (Dec 30, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> this is not always true. there are exceptions to the rule. just coz they are children does not mean they dont 'know'. i dont know how they 'know' but they sure 'know'.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I put a lot of stock in my own instincts, and I can look back at instances even as a child when I know that trusting my gut saved me from some bad situations. It's great that your daughter has those kind of instincts - they will certainly serve her well in life.

That said, no matter how good her instincts, I would personally judge it to be parental neglect and endangerment if a parent knowingly sent their child into a situation lacking supervision knowing full well that she was going to encounter people who might be a danger to her. It just all depends upon the situation. We have libraries in our town that are small and family centered, where the only people coming and going are parents and children, and then we have libraries that have a much more detached staff and plenty of people who raise red flags. Obviously, you know your own situation better than any of us do, but I just wanted to speak to the point that being aware and wary of whom she may encounter is certainly one piece of the puzzle.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chenchen*
> 
> That said, no matter how good her instincts, I would personally judge it to be parental neglect and endangerment if a parent knowingly sent their child into a situation lacking supervision knowing full well that she was going to encounter people who might be a danger to her.


but isnt that a chance you take all the time you leave you child alone at a public place - even at one that 'looks' safe.

i am curious - at big big libraries isnt there a children's section? i know at our main branch the children's section is completely separate - on its own floor with the librarians desk at the main entrance so no 'unsafe' looking person can go down there. even at that library i wont feel unsafe leaving my dd alone - for one because i trust her not leaving the floor and second there are security guards at both entrances. in fact they have extra security at that library - esp. around the children's section too.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Our libraries all have children's sections with signs saying not to leave your children unattended. They are fine with kids browsing while you are in the same room but not fine with children being left alone in the room. There are usually two or three librarians in the room and at least one person stocking shelves. They don't stop people from going in though because it is a public place. I don't think it is an issue if they say they are going to supervise your child and you are free to leave though.

This is a little off topic but I do want to address the idea that people who are unsafe are going to look it and that someone will just turn them away. It is very naive to think that someone who is unsafe is going to look unsafe. People who are unsafe do not generally look unsafe and they don't always give you a bad feeling inside. The person who hurt me the worst as a child was a person who looked and acted very safe and caring. Serial killers, rapists, and child molestors seem like very nice people who would never hurt anyone and at the same time they commit heinous crimes that have long lasting devastating events. They sometimes insinuate themselves into your lives and they sometimes just snatch people in broad daylight with no one blinking an eye because they look so nice. My mom was just telling me about a serial killer who snatched kids from front yards while neighbors who knew them just looked on because he looked so decent and like he belonged. If an adult in the know can be fooled a librarian at a desk can be fooled just as easily. I don't think that this is a big thing to worry about in the situation you describe, or even in general, but I truly hope you are teaching your child not to be taken in by nice looks and sweet talk when you talk to her about staying safe when she isn't around adults who are watching out for her.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Ours has a sign saying that children younger than 6 can't be left unattended. So I guess this is different for different libraries.


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## chenchen (Dec 30, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> but isnt that a chance you take all the time you leave you child alone at a public place - even at one that 'looks' safe.
> 
> i am curious - at big big libraries isnt there a children's section? i know at our main branch the children's section is completely separate - on its own floor with the librarians desk at the main entrance so no 'unsafe' looking person can go down there. even at that library i wont feel unsafe leaving my dd alone - for one because i trust her not leaving the floor and second there are security guards at both entrances. in fact they have extra security at that library - esp. around the children's section too.


There is risk involved anytime a child is alone in public, yes. But the risk is dramatically increased if the child is alone in a place where people with mental illness and substance abuse problems are known to congregate. Just because unknown risk exists in the world doesn't make it any more logical to knowingly place a child at risk.

As to the libraries here, all of the libraries have children's sections, but they are all also open floorplan - the children's sections are not isolated, and no one is prevented from entering them. To be clear though, I wasn't making a suggestion one way or another about whether or not gyou should leave your child alone at the library (I think every parent has to make their own decisions there); my intention in this thread was merely to controvert the argument that a large presence of homeless people shouldn't have any bearing on a parent's decision, or is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.

I don't have a nine year old. My oldest is seven. At the moment, I'm comfortable allowing her to walk to the other end of the grocery store for a cookie from the bakery while I'm in frozen foods. Who knows where I'll be in two years. At the moment, I don't foresee leaving her in the library alone, but I've parented long enough to have learned not to predict how I will handle situations I haven't yet been in.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chenchen*
> 
> There is risk involved anytime a child is alone in public, yes. But the risk is dramatically increased if the child is alone in a place where people with mental illness and substance abuse problems are known to congregate.


OK substance abuse wasn't part of the original statement. Substance abuse may be linked to violence. What I said earlier, I will repeat -- people with mental illnesses are not more dangerous to your child. Someone with a mental illness is much more likely to harm themselves or be a victim than a perpetrator. It really bothers me to hear people say how dangerous it can be to be around people with mental illness. That's simply not true, and this cuts close to home because I've suffered mental illnesses, I have many close friends that have as well, I've spent a lot of time around people who are mentally ill or hospitalized, including state hospital patients (aka the worst off)... The link between violence & mental illness is a stereotype promoted by media & Hollywood.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am sorry but it really gets my goat when people stigmatise people with mental illness, homeless and substance abuse.

the last 14 years of my life i have spent with them. and really just coz their outer self shows they are different there is such a huge bias around them.

i have seen their other side and to lump them all as unsafe is grossly unfair.

i have seen both sides. but just coz the guy 'looks' crazy does not mean they are crazy. in fact some of them are quite the opposite. yeah those 'crazies' do hang out at our main library but we have never had any incidence with them at the library - not once. never.

yeah the problems we have downtime are the meth kids. kids.

in our city there have been more homeless who have frozen to death than the number who have attacked anyone in public.

because i was one of the few people who spoke to the homeless around where i lived, they were my security when i came home late. they kept an eye out for me. yes they were mentally ill, smelly badly kept and i am sure they had substance abuse. and yet they were the only people who offered to share their TG meal with me when they saw me walking down the empty street by myself on TG day.


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## chenchen (Dec 30, 2011)

There's that word "stigmatize" again. No one is stigmatizing ("regard as worthy of disgrace or great disapproval") the mentally ill or the homeless. I'm not campaigning disgrace OR disapproval. I'm encouraging *caution*. I also have a good deal of experience with mental illness. I'm the daughter of a woman with borderline personality disorder and sister of two brothers with bipolar disorder, one of whom has spent substantial amounts of his life as a homeless man, and more than a year in my home. You can be a champion for the rights and dignity of the homeless and mentally ill without being unrealistic about the level of stability they embody.

I am so stunned by this assertion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy
> 
> ...people with mental illnesses are not more dangerous to your child. Someone with a mental illness is much more likely to harm themselves or be a victim than a perpetrator. It really bothers me to hear people say how dangerous it can be to be around people with mental illness. That's simply not true...


that I had to do some digging. The New England Journal of Medicine published a study (7000 subjects) which concluded "that patients with serious mental illness - those with schizophrenia, major depression, or bipolar disorder - were *two to three times as likely* as people without such an illness to be assaultive." A separate study (of 802 adults with a psychotic or major mood disorder) showed "violence was independently correlated with several risk factors, including substance abuse, a history of having been a victim of violence, homelessness, and poor medical health."

Then you must consider that substance abuse among the homeless is significantly higher than among the general population. "*More than half* of homeless people with mental illness have a co-occurring substance abuse disorder, including addiction to marijuana, alcohol, or cocaine." (American Psychiatric Association 2011 Institute on Psychiatric Services).

While these statistics obviously don't mean that all people who suffer from mental illness (or for that matter substance abuse) will be a threat, it does mean that the the risk is increased. Knowingly putting an unsupervised child in a position of increased risk is, in my opinion, irresponsible.


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## chenchen (Dec 30, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> OK substance abuse wasn't part of the original statement. Substance abuse may be linked to violence.


Substance abuse wasn't directly mentioned in your original rebuttal, but homelessness was. Since substance abuse is present in more than 50% of homeless individuals, it was worth naming explicitly as a danger.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I could show you a bunch of studies stating the opposite. And a lot of the studies showing a correlation of violence studied incarcerated people -- hardly a representative sample. The study you quoted wasn't even designed to study violence, and they only correlated it with 3 specific mental illnesses, which again is not representative of mental illnesses as a whole. And even they admit that when they removed certain risk factors, potential for violence was the same among people with mental illness as the general population.

This really isn't something I can deal with debating right now, I've said my piece & I hope at least a few people 'heard' me enough to think twice before stereotyping people who are mentally ill. It's just a sad & upsetting thing to hear, but maybe I'm overly sensitive.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

Mental illness hits close to home for most people. It is in almost everyone's family to one degree or another. I think I may have made the original post that you originally responded to and quoted. It clearly mentions that many (not all) homeless people have mental illness and/or (not necessarily both) addiction problems. It is not true that addiction was not mentioned in the post. I don't know if that will change your feelings on the post at all, but I thought I would let you know, hoping it would make you feel a bit better. I had another post after that to clarify, because I know my original post was all over the place, and I was afraid people might read it the wrong way. Both posts mention addiction and/or mental illness.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I could show you a bunch of studies stating the opposite. And a lot of the studies showing a correlation of violence studied incarcerated people -- hardly a representative sample. The study you quoted wasn't even designed to study violence, and they only correlated it with 3 specific mental illnesses, which again is not representative of mental illnesses as a whole. And even they admit that when they removed certain risk factors, potential for violence was the same among people with mental illness as the general population.
> This really isn't something I can deal with debating right now, I've said my piece & I hope at least a few people 'heard' me enough to think twice before stereotyping people who are mentally ill. It's just a sad & upsetting thing to hear, but maybe I'm overly sensitive.


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