# Very scary possibly mental health issues



## cynthiamoon

Hello, 

This is concerning a sister of a friend, and I've known about it for over a year always thinking it was none of my business, but I was thinking about it today, and I realized that it's getting really worrisome and I don't know what to do. If it was my sister, I'd have gotten involved by now. As it is, I just don't know what to do. I changed some details to protect privacy. 

This acquaintance has a toddler who is just shy of 20 months and lives in another state. From day one, they had a rough time with him. He was hard to console, and didn't sleep more than 30 minutes or so at a time day or night. Months passed and I heard that this was still the case, and that they had hired a "sleep consultant" to help, and that the mother was unwilling to try CIO methods. Fair enough, I too think CIO is usually a bad idea as a "cure-all" for sleep disorders. 

Now, this 20mo toddler is still only sleeping for an hour or two at a time once a night, and then waking every 15-30 minutes after that. All night long. Naps are the same story. Naturally, the parents are walking zombies, and the kid is a mess. My friend who is very close to the family reports that their son is deeply unhappy and heavily clingy. Even though they live close to relatives who are loving and around a lot, their son will not let anyone but mom care for him, and cries if mom stops providing stimulation. Being held or being nearby is not enough. At a recent gathering, if mom stopped singing and bouncing the toddler, he'd immediatelly start wailing. All. Day. Long she is either singing and bouncing or dealing with a screaming toddler. 

Furthermore, I just learned that their son is less than 1st percentile in weight and has legs so thin they are the same width as my friend's 5th percentile 5 month old, who was a month premature. 

I also just learned that the toddler's mother has anxiety panic attacks when her child is crying (like heaving, tremors, heart palpitations) and thus never gives him any space whatsoever to process his emotions away from her, even with another caring adult. She's never left him alone with anyone else. I practice AP parenting, but this seems like a really unhealthy dynamic to me because I get the sense that ANY kind of unhappiness in part of the baby is answered by anxious smothering. 

Developmental milestones like walking and talking seem to be developing normally, and he eats well. 

When I asked what medical advice they had received, I learned that their pediatrician thinks all of this is "normal" and not cause for concern. They have not been referred to any specialists. The extended family of this couple is blaming the bad behavior and poor weight gain on loss of sleep and high metabolism, and they are blaming the loss of sleep and bad behavior on the poor mother and her over-bearing parenting. 

Personally, I think that her response is likely due to a bit of anxiety issues, sure, but mostly to the extreme denial they are in about the health of their child. I think in their heart of hearts they must know something is wrong, but aren't accepting it, which is leading to the mother responding by providing the only kind of care she can provide. 

The questions is, what can we (mainly my friend who is close to the family) do to help? She has asked me and other fellow parents for perspective and advice, and honestly, if it was my sister, I'd have staged some sort of loving intervention by now, but that seems inappropriate for their dynamic. 

We live too far to be of physical service, and it seems the parents are unwilling to seek out medical help. They are in such denial that they are planning on moving in with roommates, enrolling the child in daycare, and planning their professional lives as if they don't have a special needs child. 

Is it anyone's duty to do something? Say something? I am so worried that we are all just standing by as something terrible happens within this family. I even had a panicked moment where I thought of calling some government agency with their info, but certainly that is overreacting. 

Help!


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## katelove

I wrote a big long post but then I realised that it boils down to me saying. I don't know what you do. But I sympathise :-(


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## MeepyCat

Okay, so first up - it is not clear to me that you've ever met this woman, so I'm going to start by suggesting that you be extremely careful, and wary of the motives of the people involved. There are things you say in your post that you seem unlikely to actually know - like this child's size comparison with a five month old. (Where, btw, as a mother of skinny kids, I get annoyed at you. Leg circumference is not a meaningful measure on pediatric care.)

It's interesting to me that the mother in this story is regarded critically both for mothering intensively (not giving her child time to process emotions away from her, even with other caring adults), and planning on enrolling her child in daycare.

Also, you know what I think would be great for thos family? Daycare. It would really get that mom a break, and maybe a nap, which she has got to be violently in need of. I think that woman needs a good group daycare, one with special needs kids integrated in regular classrooms, and an open door to local EI programs. This family may or may not need those services. They might just really need some sleep. 

Other not crazy ideas? CIO. Not because it would solve the child's sleep problems, but because it would make for a safer living environment with saner adults. Those poor people haven't had a solid nights sleep in 20 months, you say. If true, they are in really bad shape. It is utterly unsurprising that they're anxious, having panic attacks, making decisions no one agrees with, and misjudging their circumstances. They probably can't see straight.

Finally: parents of special needs children are allowed roommates, child care assistance, and career plans. Those are fine things to have.


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## cynthiamoon

This is all definitely 2nd hand info, and from photos of the kids together, but my friend who is their sibling is a very very close friend of mine, compassionate person, and not a super judgemental mother. I totally agree with you that this poor family is getting judged from all directions. I don't know what they should do, but I really think the main issue is denial, and everyone around them is just wondering how to help them past that point and to seek a second medical opinion. 

The issue with moving and daycare is that they do not recognize this would need to be as special needs daycare and their new roommates have never met the family and have no idea they are getting into nearly 24/7 anxiety cycles. The day care is in home care, woman with no special credentials becasue the family doesn't see that they have a special needs situation, whatever the root cause. 

And trust me, I really agree that space would be so good for them! And CIO. When I said it at the beginning as not a cure all was when the baby was just months old. But I don't know if you missed the part about how the mom reacts to the crying. 

That's why I posted this as a possible mental health issue... Not just a parenting choices issue. 

I hope people can see this is concern coming from care and loving family members, not just high horsing know it alls and give me the benefit of the doubt.

Everyone so far has been giving the family space and those who live near them just try to offer help(for example, they live with a relative who cooks meals and does laundry, etc.) but they don't seem to realize how much they are relying on this help, and that they are about to move away from their entire support network without taking advantage of it to figure out what might be going on.


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## cynthiamoon

I've gotten involved from my distant point because my friend and I are close confidants. We talk a lot and are very involved in each other's lives. She came home from a holiday visit just shaken and confused about what to do. I don't know what to tell her, so I was hoping to get perspective from other people who may have gone through this. 
@MeepyCat, I hear you that sometimes kids are just skinny. That may be nothing, but it's just one more thing on top of others that makes us worry. Is it really normal for a kid to be THAT skinny? I don't know. I'm not sharing photos on this post, so you're just going to have to trust me.


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## MeepyCat

@cynthiamoon, were this my friend, I would point out that her sister's family is badly sleep-deprived. Sleep dep causes huge problems all by itself. Those problems are big enough that the family can't be meaningfully evaluated for anything else at this time. If they all slept ten hours a night for a month, they would be totally different people.

THEY NEED SLEEP. It is their big thing.

You say they have hired a sleep consultant. Perhaps that will be useful. It is certainly a real approach to their key problem.

You say they're moving. You also say they're moving in with roommates and looking for daycare. These are the seeds of a support network. Especially if the roommates are people they already know.


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## katelove

While I think it's unlikely that the family in question will ever see this thread, I'm going to say this in case anyone else with similar circumstances comes across it.

I will start by saying that I do not think CIO is *ever* a good solution. However it seems like a particularly bad idea in this case. Even CIO advocates don't recommend doing it with a sick child and here we have a child who may just be particularly high needs but may also have a serious in diagnosed health problem. He may, for example, have a digestive disorder which causes him extreme pain. 

I totally agree that adequate sleep would significantly improve things for this family. I do not think that CIO is the way to go about it. And I think there is a good chance it would fail anyway.


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## MeepyCat

The thing CIO achieves in this case is rested parents. And since one of the many possibilities here is that parental fussing is caising a feedback loop that keeps the baby up, it's not out of the question that he'd actually sleep. Since it's also not out of the question that his slow weight gain and general irritability is caused by sleep deprivation as well, that might genuinely help.

If, as stated, neither mother nor child has slept for more than a 90 minute stretch in 20 months, there is real reason to suspect that whatever health issues they have (and that length of sleep dep would lead to lots of health problems) would improve significantly with sleep. Sleep for everyone would be best, but if that can't be had, sleep for some is at least a start.


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## katelove

But, even if CIO were justified, how likely is it that this mother who has panic attacks when her child cries is going to be able to sleep while he screams in another room? 

IMO, a better alternative would be to leave him with a relative for a night., In a different house. If that is impossible then mum goes somewhere else to sleep and dad looks after baby. Then they swap the next night (or after two nights or whatever).

I also think they should be actively pursuing a second opinion from another paed to see if there is a pain component to his distress. But I can see why sleep deprivation and anxiety is making it very difficult for them to pursue that avenue.


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## MeepyCat

Leaving the child with a relative for a night, or mom and dad swapping nights, would be great. If there was a way to make that happen, sure.


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## ScienceMommy101

Well, two easy things to check up on, which may help: is the child getting enough vitamin D through sun exposure or supplementation?

Vitamin D supplementation MAY help improve sleep quality a bit.

Secondly, Omega 3 fatty acids may also help improve the quality of sleep---a nordic naturals supplement definitely cannot hurt. 

Both Vitamin D and omega 3s play a role in healthy neurological development, so this falls in the easy-to-try-and-wont-hurt categories.


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## freidariviere

I don't know what you mean by physical issues. Though mental health can and does effect your life in dramatic ways. Mental health doesn't just involve mental illnesses or a lack of mental illness it involves the unique and varied thoughts and actions of every individual and how well they improve ones ability to succeed. This involves people's interests, opinions, perceptions, social capabilities, stress tolerance, skills, weaknesses, personality, experiences and everything that has effected the way in which they think. Mental issues can go from self-esteem to their superiority complex, their overly ritualised behaviour to their lack of self-control.


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