# Spinoff: expired car seats in the absence of anything safer



## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

A spin off of this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=949393
I'm thinking of places where car seat use is rare, proper car seat use really rare, and the reality of free seats, etc. is totally different. So, can anyone give me actual studies or anything that shows exactly what the risk is in using expired seats? Thanks.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm not a CPST (yet) so I don't have an arsenal of studies and links in my belt. But I do have a video of an expired seat failing. It's a real thing and it does happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvCRz...-8&sa=N&tab=wv

It doesn't matter how rarely used a car is. All it takes is one accident; one person driving while sleepy, one person not paying attention, one animal in the road, one expired seat... Physics doesn't change just because you don't ride in a car very often.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
I'm not a CPST (yet) so I don't have an arsenal of studies and links in my belt. But I do have a video of an expired seat failing. It's a real thing and it does happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvCRz...-8&sa=N&tab=wv

Isn't that better than this:




Quote:

It doesn't matter how rarely used a car is. All it takes is one accident; one person driving while sleepy, one person not paying attention, one animal in the road, one expired seat... Physics doesn't change just because you don't ride in a car very often.
It took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about.
I didn't say car use was in frequent. I mean cars are used all the time but most people do not use car seats (aka restraints).


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Isn't that better than this:




It took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about.
I didn't say car use was in frequent. I mean cars are used all the time but most people do not use car seats (aka restraints).









I misread your first post and I thought you said car use was infrequent. My point still applies though. Car seats are not necessary if you're not in an accident. You only need them when you're in an accident. But since no one can predict when a car accident will happen, proper car seat use should be practiced all the time.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
I misread your first post and I thought you said car use was infrequent. My point still applies though. Car seats are not necessary if you're not in an accident. You only need them when you're in an accident. But since no one can predict when a car accident will happen, proper car seat use should be practiced all the time.

Well, that is obvious. I never said I supported the lack of car seat use, did I? I'm saying that is the reality, is an expired car seat better than no car seat? Are there any actual studies or statistics to prove the opinion?
For those who don't believe it is safer to be unrestrained, any links to studies or statistics about how car seats degrade over time.
Obviously the "improved technology" argument doesn't hold much water here.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

for me, this would never be an option. You don't _need_ a fancy crib, or _swing_, or _toys_, you don't need any of that, but if you have a baby and a car, or you plan on riding in a car with a baby, then you *need* a car seat. A "car seat" means a safe car seat that is not expired or has been in a collision. Let's just say hypothetically, I move to a country where car seats are not the norm, I would bring my seats from this country and lets just say I have another baby and need a new infant car seat, I would either buy one online and have someone bring it to me or I would leave said country to get one, that's me. There is no option.

Of course I would help any moms I see with their babies not restrained, but I can not change the world. Some people just don't want to hear it. They have no problem spending a couple hundred bucks on a new cell phone, but a car seat for a child is "unnecessary"...


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I guess i just dont understand the question. To me, if one "has" to use an expired seat temporarily, until one can get a safer seat, i guess thats better than no seat at all (though i suspect that some mothers will have a false sense of security and put off getting a better seat)....

but to me, the question should not be "which of these incredibly unsafe choices is safER"...it should be "how can i help a mom who cannot afford/get a newer/safer seat, to get one?" I'm not sure how much the cheapest safe seats where you live cost, or how readily accessible they are.

However, i bet through some creative networking, one could find a used seat in pretty good condition, that is not expired, that one could give to one's friend (or use oneself)....throwing up your hands and saying "its just not an option here" doesnt seem as helpful as trying to find a way to make it work.

Katherine


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

It's a matter of "lesser evils" -- neither option is safe, but an expired seat is slightly less unsafe than no seat at all.... No, we don't have comprehensive enough comparative data to know exactly how much.

An expired carseat must ever only be a last resort, temporary solution: as someone with $0 income myself I would still find some way to ask for a little bit of $ here or there from friends, classmates, etc. to save toward a new seat.

(My other $0 income single mom friend created a raffle in exchange for a homemade baked dessert every month, runner up got free landscaping with seeds off Freecycle: she made almost $1000 on this raffle used toward her college books)

This is assuming the community truly has no other resource. Many places of worship have enough funds allocated to help a family even if there aren't any nearby seatcheck programs to provide free seats.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I am not a Safety expert, but what I have always wondered is who beside the car seat manufactures makes these expiration dates. What or who makes up the arbitrary seven years for some 5 for others. Is there an Independant source that has tetsed the life of car seats taking into account use or non use, climate hot or cold, weight etc. And is the other thing is are these estimates base on merely the life of the straps and buckles becuase if they are than why can't they be replaced every 5 years? It just seems o awful that these car seats will just be filling up land fills. There has to be a better way???


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

This is what happens when a seat expires. The plastic degrades and the harness rips through the shell as shown in this video; also, the seat could shatter on impact. It has nothing to do with use or non-use. Extremes in climates can shorten carseat life, but a mild climate will not extend carseat life.

If you do not want to throw out your carseat, contact SafeKids and ask if they would like it for training.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

I dont know who exactly is involved in the expiration dates, but I am assuming it is both the manufacturer who tests these seats, and other government agencies, like the NHSTA.

It is not about buckles or straps, though. It is about plastic breaking down over time. This time frame of breaking down is hastened by extreme temperatures, as one would experience in a car. When the plastic becomes brittle, the force of a crash will allow the harness to break right through plastic, strangling the child, or ejecting him completely. The broken pieces of plastic also become a safety hazard.

My speculation on different expiration times might have to do with the quality of plastic being used. Think about the numbers on plastic for recycling and how they vary. Thinner, cheaper plastics tend to be lower numbers. I have noticed on some older car seats that I snagged from thrift stores that they have the #6 on it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipmummy* 
I am not a Safety expert, but what I have always wondered is who beside the car seat manufactures makes these expiration dates. What or who makes up the arbitrary seven years for some 5 for others. Is there an Independant source that has tetsed the life of car seats taking into account use or non use, climate hot or cold, weight etc. And is the other thing is are these estimates base on merely the life of the straps and buckles becuase if they are than why can't they be replaced every 5 years? It just seems o awful that these car seats will just be filling up land fills. There has to be a better way???


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipmummy* 
I am not a Safety expert, but what I have always wondered is who beside the car seat manufactures makes these expiration dates.

NHTSA's traditional timeframe for safe use has been no more than 10 years from Date of Manufacture, assuming proper care & maintainance (no extreme weather).

This is based in part on the fact that they have tested old seats (as the link someone else posted shows) & found that they fail to provide optimal protection by 10 years. Less when stored at extreme temps (cars get up to around 130 degrees inside every summer, many attics & garages & other storage units freeze, many people leave their seats out on the porch open to inclement weather, etc.)

Quote:

And is the other thing is are these estimates base on merely the life of the straps and buckles becuase if they are than why can't they be replaced every 5 years?
No, it's also based on the integrity of the plastic itself. We use the same plastic to make the post-operative prosthetic devices for amputees at my family business. Because our products are worn daily by people puting 200+ pounds of pressure on the plastic during rigorous rehabilition purposes, they have a mere 90 day safe lifespan. One practitioner decided to ignore our protocol & his patient fell down the stairs, requiring a new amputation which would have been totally avoided if he'd simply followed the rules. This was the only case in over 15 years of product sold nationally.

Quote:

It just seems so awful that these car seats will just be filling up land fills. There has to be a better way???
It would be much more awful to see kids filling up the cemeteries.

Expired seats are excellent training tools! Always feel free to contact your local CPSTs to donate them


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i guess for me i just can not imagine a scenario where i would have to use an expired car seat. they are not safe..they are proven unsafe. if i HAD to chose between an expired seat and no seat, i would of course use some kind of restraint but I would work as hard as i could to find a safer alternative....i would venture to say that im enough of a car seat freak that i would do almost anything (short of harming another or anything horrible like that) to afford a safe seat for my kids. I know that when I bought my first BV, I was NOT in a good financial situation (had just started being a SAHM and was unexpectedly single on top of that).

I do know someone right now who choses a completely expired seat (by about 10 years) over a perfectly good $200 seat that i have offered them for FREE (its extended family). It makes me sick to my stomach thinking this little girl is riding around in that seat (its the vinyl covering..no padding whatsoever and has to be about 20 years old).

I think we all just do what we can do to make sure the moms out there who have expired or no seats are equipt (if we can). Short of that, I guess one should believe in prayer.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Excellent points, PassionateWriter. In addition to the raffle idea I mentioned earlier, I'd just like to share my story....

When I first discovered there are people trained according to the NHTSA curriculum to keep kids safe, I was a single mom with temporary (emergency) custody of my DD's older half siblings. I was supporting a family of 5 on $15,000/year. I couldn't afford a Cosco Scenera with what I had in my checking account.

I sold my living roomfurniture set to buy safe enough seats for the kids who still needed them. We sat cross legged on pillows for a while inside our home. So what? 4 years later my DD is still safe in 1 of those seats & I have a living room set again thanks to Freecycle.

Only 2 months after I bought the carseats, someone crashed into us. 1 of the kids would have been in a lap-only belt if I hadn't sold my living room set. He might be paralyzed today. Sitting on some pillows pales in comparison to knowing I kept him safe enough to be able to play basketball with his friends today.


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## CrunchyGranolaMom (Feb 5, 2002)

Papooses: so is it okay to use a seat within 10 years if it's had proper care and maintenance, or am I misunderstanding your post? What about seats that have expiration dates on them?

Thanks.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
for me, this would never be an option. You don't _need_ a fancy crib, or _swing_, or _toys_, you don't need any of that, but if you have a baby and a car, or you plan on riding in a car with a baby, then you *need* a car seat. A "car seat" means a safe car seat that is not expired or has been in a collision. Let's just say hypothetically, I move to a country where car seats are not the norm, I would bring my seats from this country and lets just say I have another baby and need a new infant car seat, I would either buy one online and have someone bring it to me or I would leave said country to get one, that's me. There is no option.

How would you get to the airport?


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

So no studies or actual statistics or anything like that?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyGranolaMom* 
Papooses: so is it okay to use a seat within 10 years if it's had proper care and maintenance, or am I misunderstanding your post? What about seats that have expiration dates on them?

Thanks.

Not Papooses, but also a CPST. All currently made seats have their expiry either on the seat or in the manual. That's what you use. 10 years is the default in the absence of other information, but it's kind of irrelevant, because any seat made within 10 years has a stated expiry of LESS than 10 years. Did that make any sense at all?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
So no studies or actual statistics or anything like that?

This is a pretty interesting article in general on different types of plastics in use for safety purposes and how they hold up under various conditions:

www.fiboxusa.com/pdf/Fibox.pdf

Although they don't specifically discuss carseat applications, the takeaway is that every type of plastic has pluses and minuses in terms of how much force it can withstand, how it responds to temperature extremes and sunlight, etc. It's very relevant to the issue at hand.

As for how I'd get to the airport: I'd take a bus. Carseats are not required on buses, since bus travel is inherently safer in many ways.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Not Papooses, but also a CPST. All currently made seats have their expiry either on the seat or in the manual. That's what you use. 10 years is the default in the absence of other information, but it's kind of irrelevant, because any seat made within 10 years has a stated expiry of LESS than 10 years.

Precisely







Which is why I said it has been NHTSA traditional statement, but that statement seems to have disappeared very recently from their site since the manufacturers themselves are establishing the criteria & making it known in their manuals + on the seats themselves (sometimes embedded into the plastic)

Because no one's seats are stored at room temp. by nature of being inside a vehicle, 10 years is a last resort maximum.

I would never consider letting my child ride in a 20 year old carseat -- just like I would never consider letting my child without a carseat







We simply wouldn't make the trip unless it were already a life or death situation without any chance of catching a bus.

I don't own a vehicle. We ride the bus & walk a lot. I carry a Ride Safer Travel Vest in my backpack just in case we need to call a cab or rideshare/carpool.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 




Extremes in climates can shorten carseat life, but a mild climate will not extend carseat life.


OK I don't quite get this. Are you saying that living in an extreme climate will make a carseat not last until the expiration date? How are parents supposed to understand or plan for that? I don't understand.

And the two things above - extremes in climates can shorten carseat lives but a mild climate won't extend it - that is illogical. If carseat life is shorter on one hand, it has to be longer on the other. There is no shorter without something else being longer. So, again, I don't understand what you mean by that.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
OK I don't quite get this. Are you saying that living in an extreme climate will make a carseat not last until the expiration date? How are parents supposed to understand or plan for that? I don't understand.

And the two things above - extremes in climates can shorten carseat lives but a mild climate won't extend it - that is illogical. If carseat life is shorter on one hand, it has to be longer on the other. There is no shorter without something else being longer. So, again, I don't understand what you mean by that.

Living in an extreme climate MAY make a carseat more fragile. Parents who live in extrene climates and tend towards the more cautious end of the spectrum might choose to retire a seat at five years or five and a half instead of six. This is not required, but could be a parental choice -- sort of like if my carton of milk smells funny but is still within dates, I certainly don't have to drink it.

Carseats expire on their expiration date. It is misuse (in every state) and illegal in several states to use an expired seat. It is always a safe option to retire a carseat early if a parent is concerned: the opposite does not apply and it is not a safe choice to use a carseat past expiration.

I'm not sure what you mean by "how is a parent supposed to understand or plan for that?" -- the same way they understand and plan for everything else.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Living in an extreme climate MAY make a carseat more fragile. Parents who live in extrene climates and tend towards the more cautious end of the spectrum might choose to retire a seat at five years or five and a half instead of six. This is not required, but could be a parental choice -- sort of like if my carton of milk smells funny but is still within dates, I certainly don't have to drink it.

Carseats expire on their expiration date. It is misuse (in every state) and illegal in several states to use an expired seat. It is always a safe option to retire a carseat early if a parent is concerned: the opposite does not apply and it is not a safe choice to use a carseat past expiration.

I'm not sure what you mean by "how is a parent supposed to understand or plan for that?" -- the same way they understand and plan for everything else.

I don't know if my climate is considered extreme, but it does get very cold. But if I bought a seat that is supposed to last 7 years, I'd assume it would last 7 years. If it only lasted 7 years in some climates, I don't think it should even be listed as only lasting 7 years. And if it's going to expire after 6 years, there are going to be a lot of kids potentially riding around in unsafe seats whose parents would have no idea the seats were unsafe. If this is the case than that standard - having the seat expiration date only applicable to certain climates - is an unsafe practice.

I understand now that when you said being in a mild climate doesn't make the carseat last longer, you mean that it doesn't mean it lasts longer than the expiration date, but it sounded strange to me in my morning haze, like a seat will last a shorter period of time in a cold climate, but it won't last any longer in a warm climate than in a cold climate. Which just had me scratching my head.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't know if my climate is considered extreme, but it does get very cold. But if I bought a seat that is supposed to last 7 years, I'd assume it would last 7 years. If it only lasted 7 years in some climates, I don't think it should even be listed as only lasting 7 years. And if it's going to expire after 6 years, there are going to be a lot of kids potentially riding around in unsafe seats whose parents would have no idea the seats were unsafe. If this is the case than that standard - having the seat expiration date only applicable to certain climates - is an unsafe practice.

I understand now that when you said being in a mild climate doesn't make the carseat last longer, you mean that it doesn't mean it lasts longer than the expiration date, but it sounded strange to me in my morning haze, like a seat will last a shorter period of time in a cold climate, but it won't last any longer in a warm climate than in a cold climate. Which just had me scratching my head.

People have different risk tolerances. That's all I mean. If I open a package of chicken and it's not stinky, but maybe just the littlest bit off -- I'll probably cook the heck out of it and serve it anyhow. You might toss it. When I lived in an area that was below zero in the winter and over 100 in the summer, I decided I'd retire my carseat at five years instead of six. You might choose to use the seat for the full six years.

Honestly, in hindsight, I never should have brought it up, and I apologize. If I, as a parent, choose to be more cautious than necessary, it's my choice. It doesn't belong on a thread about absolutes and maximums.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
People have different risk tolerances. That's all I mean. If I open a package of chicken and it's not stinky, but maybe just the littlest bit off -- I'll probably cook the heck out of it and serve it anyhow. You might toss it. When I lived in an area that was below zero in the winter and over 100 in the summer, I decided I'd retire my carseat at five years instead of six. You might choose to use the seat for the full six years.

Honestly, in hindsight, I never should have brought it up, and I apologize. If I, as a parent, choose to be more cautious than necessary, it's my choice. It doesn't belong on a thread about absolutes and maximums.

It isn't relevant to me as my new child will be 7 years younger than my old child and I don't even have any of my daughter's old carseats anyway, but I just think it's really an unsafe practice to put any date on a seat that isn't truly safe. I would think expiration dates would take into effect the fact that a large percentage of the US has extreme temperatures. If the seat can't handle the temperatures of a large percentage of the US, then it should have a different expiration date listed.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 

As for how I'd get to the airport: I'd take a bus. Carseats are not required on buses, since bus travel is inherently safer in many ways.

Assuming there is a bus that goes there. There isn't for many places.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
How would you get to the airport?

if i were in a situation where i needed to purchase a car seat and had no bus transportation and needed to ride in a car, absent a life and death situation, i would arrange for my child to remain at home (as much as i would hate leaving him). notice i say "absent life and death". if my child were bleeding profusely from a head wound or was in some horrible accident, then i would put him in a car WITHOUT A CAR SEAT EVEN in order to get him to the nearest hospital. Im certainly not "pound wise and penny foolish" or whatever that phrase is....but for an outing that is not life and death, no car seat means no car for me....and an expired car seat IMHO is "almost" as bad as no car seat.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Really great question and thread.

You are all so wise!


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
if i were in a situation where i needed to purchase a car seat and had no bus transportation and needed to ride in a car, absent a life and death situation, i would arrange for my child to remain at home (as much as i would hate leaving him). notice i say "absent life and death". if my child were bleeding profusely from a head wound or was in some horrible accident, then i would put him in a car WITHOUT A CAR SEAT EVEN in order to get him to the nearest hospital. Im certainly not "pound wise and penny foolish" or whatever that phrase is....but for an outing that is not life and death, no car seat means no car for me....and an expired car seat IMHO is "almost" as bad as no car seat.

You'd leave him at home alone?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

arranging to leave dc at home is not the same thing as leaving dc at home alone. What I took from her post is that she would find someone to watch her dc while we went to get a car seat.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Assuming there is a bus that goes there. There isn't for many places.

I have yet to see an airport that has no bus service.

There seems to be an underlying notion here that there are places where one MUST travel by car, but CANNOT POSSIBLY obtain a safe carseat. And, maybe that *is* true in some random corner of the world... but it seems unlikely to me. Rather, I think there are places where it is massively more convenient to travel by car, and it's highly inconvenient to obtain a safe carseat, which means that it's very inconvenient to keep your kids safe (either by skipping the car ride or obtaining a seat for them). But kids aren't meant to be convenient; if they were, they'd have carrying handles and little gages to tell you when the stomach is empty and the bladder is full. ;-)

Whatever the laws or enforcement or practices or economic considerations are in Israel, the physics of car crashes and chemistry of plastic degradation don't take them into account. An expired seat in Israel is just as (un)safe as an expired seat in the US. I'm sorry there aren't any Israeli CPSTs on this board to discuss the particular geographic issues with you, but the science is the same here as there.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
You'd leave him at home alone?

omg that is about the funniest thing i have ever read.

first, im overzealous for wanting a good car seat and believing in extended rear facing and harnessing and then im leaving my 2 yo home ALONE? that is just so beyond anything i would have ever thought could have possibly have been interpreted by my post (and i am generally pretty good at knowing...not always but alot of times).

i just cant say anything other than of course i would never leave my kid alone. i do not nor do i contemplate living on a deserted island w/o anyone else...and while leaving my toddler is not something i am in the habit of doing, i would rather leave him with a trusted care giver than put him in a car w/o a seat or w/ an expired seat.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Whatever the laws or enforcement or practices or economic considerations are in Israel, the physics of car crashes and chemistry of plastic degradation don't take them into account. An expired seat in Israel is just as (un)safe as an expired seat in the US. I'm sorry there aren't any Israeli CPSTs on this board to discuss the particular geographic issues with you, but the science is the same here as there.

Very well said. And, I do remember someone else linking to the Israeli SafeKids site. Or Google it. Then contact someone on there to answer specific questions.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
arranging to leave dc at home is not the same thing as leaving dc at home alone. What I took from her post is that she would find someone to watch her dc while we went to get a car seat.

And I'm asking what would happen if there was noone to watch the baby for 3 days. Yes, sarcasticly, tongue in cheek, but its pretty obvious what I meant.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I have yet to see an airport that has no bus service.

People do live in places with no bus service.

Quote:

There seems to be an underlying notion here that there are places where one MUST travel by car, but CANNOT POSSIBLY obtain a safe carseat. And, maybe that *is* true in some random corner of the world... but it seems unlikely to me.
Ok. But it happens to be true.

Quote:

Rather, I think there are places where it is massively more convenient to travel by car, and it's highly inconvenient to obtain a safe carseat, which means that it's very inconvenient to keep your kids safe (either by skipping the car ride or obtaining a seat for them). But kids aren't meant to be convenient; if they were, they'd have carrying handles and little gages to tell you when the stomach is empty and the bladder is full. ;-)
I'm sure there are those places too. But this isn't what I'm talking about. I am not talking about people for whom it is about being inconvenienced, but apparently noone wants to thoughtfully consider what I'm saying or where I'm coming from. Thanks anyway.

Quote:

Whatever the laws or enforcement or practices or economic considerations are in Israel, the physics of car crashes and chemistry of plastic degradation don't take them into account. An expired seat in Israel is just as (un)safe as an expired seat in the US. I'm sorry there aren't any Israeli CPSTs on this board to discuss the particular geographic issues with you, but the science is the same here as there.
True, and its really unfortunate that I have been given so little actual scientific information in this area.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 

first, im overzealous for wanting a good car seat and believing in extended rear facing and harnessing

Who said any of that? I don't think you overzealous. Maybe I think leaving the kid to go overseas to get a new car seat is a bit extreme and cost prohibitive for most people but, whatever. Now that I know about car seats at all- not a subject I knew much of anything about when my first 2 were young, pre internet and being in Israel where there is NO education about it at all and even the place that was the official loaning place (yad sarah- lends medical equipment, etc.) gave me a seat that was AT LEAST 6 years old when my oldest was a newborn- I do not plan to put my kids in a seat that is over 6 years past manufacture. My 78 lbs. 6 and 9 yr. old ride in tubo boosters with the back and my 23 lbs. 12 month old is rfing and will remain so to the limit of his seat (35 lbs. I believe, lost the manual in a fire).
I do thank that you are refusing to see too far outside your own reality and its a shame. I'm not saying anyone deserves safety any less, I'm just only going to provide the safety I believe in to my own children first. If I can help someone else's kids be saf*er* than they were before even if they aren't as safe as my kids I think that is a good thing. I don't think I should be berated for doing it, and certainly not for trying to figure out actual facts about the level of safety of all the options readily available.

nak, with really cranky baby.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Very well said. And, I do remember someone else linking to the Israeli SafeKids site. Or Google it. Then contact someone on there to answer specific questions.

I am planning to call them. But calling them isn't going to change that there is no education about car seats given to parents, not in dr's offices, not in the hospital, etc, etc. And most ppl. don't use them. And no law enforcement ever stops anyone.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
I am planning to call them. But calling them isn't going to change that there is no education about car seats given to parents, not in dr's offices, not in the hospital, etc, etc. And most ppl. don't use them. And no law enforcement ever stops anyone.

Your call is the 1st step in getting there







Seriously, SafeKids depends on those wanting to make a difference & volunteering to make that happen.... I paid out of my pocket for my SafeKids certification & supplies. I volunteer in my community. I make it happen because no one else was when my DD was born


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## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
There seems to be an underlying notion here that there are places where one MUST travel by car, but CANNOT POSSIBLY obtain a safe carseat. And, maybe that *is* true in some random corner of the world... but it seems unlikely to me.

It's not an unlikely situation at all. There were planty of places in Bangkok (not exactly so far flung) that we needed to travel to by car, and I never came across a car with seatbelts. So sure, I had access to an infant car seat, but I couldn't affix it to anything. There are all sorts of reasons that people legitimately might not use acceptable restraints.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

FYI, I found this:
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=17864
http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/countries/israel.htm (the law that back seat passengers require seat belts is very recent)

FTR, I *know* I am going to get argued with when I try and put a car seat in the taxi that we take home from the airport. There is no other possible way for us to get home. We cannot take numerous busses with 12 suitcases/ boxes and Dh being disabled. I am not sure yet how we are getting home, but the car seat thing is going to be a fight, and I know it. It may be a fight I can't win. There may not be a vehicle with safety belts available. I cannot pull a car with safety belts out of my hat, ya know? You better believe I'm going to try, hard. But thats all I can do. I am personally going to be lugging a baby, carry ons, and an evenflo TA through the airport on both sides, so you cannot for a second claim I am not dedicated to car seat safety.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
And I'm asking what would happen if there was noone to watch the baby for 3 days. Yes, sarcasticly, tongue in cheek, but its pretty obvious what I meant.

you are right..that isnt my world. or anyone else's that i have ever dealt w/. and I have been to Israel a few times. I know that many places around the world have more caregivers around (extended family, etc. etc. etc.) than we do here in the US. We do not live around our extended family and I don't know that I would impose on a friend for 3 days to care for my toddler (plus, he's still nursing so that would be difficult). But I don't think I would have to leave my toddler for 3 days in order to get to a safe car seat. Amazon.com ships to almost every place in the world. Yes, you are going ot have your exceptions....but if there is civilization, there is UPS and FedEx. I didn't think we were talking about having to fly 1/2 way across the world in order to get a car seat...b/c i dont think thats necessary. And if I cant get a vehicle to take me to the airport or nearest shipping area, then I don't see my chances of needing a car seat very high.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 

I'm sure there are those places too. But this isn't what I'm talking about. I am not talking about people for whom it is about being inconvenienced, but apparently noone wants to thoughtfully consider what I'm saying or where I'm coming from. Thanks anyway.

True, and its really unfortunate that I have been given so little actual scientific information in this area.

There are links to information re: the safety of car seats on this board and elsewhere. I'm not sure what you want in order to satisfy your question. You have information about what can happen w/ expired car seats. The unfortunate part of car seat safety, IMHO, is that there aren't alot of organizations doing research out there. It is left up to parents discretion in many cases. But physics is physics regardless of where you live (and I won't go there, im not a physicist).

I guess for me this isn't an issue about "what you have to do when you have no choice" but "what can i do to best protect my child". If one lives in a country that does not have seat belts in the cars, then I can't see an alternative to putting a child unrestrained in a car seat. I think I would prefer to use a car seat anyway in that situation (at least they would be harnessed), but as you said, its not as if you can pull a car w/ car seats out of your bum.

My only point in this thread at is not to be egocentric and believe everyone can just walk down to the BRU and get a new car seat. My point was that an expired car seat, while being better than no car seat in most cases, isn't something I am willing to gamble my child's life on that it will operate as intended. I would use one in a crunch but I would work my a$$ off to get one that was not expired ASAP.

When you consider other cultures, however, I think the fact that the USA has sooo many cars, and sooo many highways, and travel at such high rates of speed tips the scales for us. Physics is the same everywhere but the facts on the ground b/w Boston and Haifa (traffic) wise are substantially different.


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
I am planning to call them. But calling them isn't going to change that there is no education about car seats given to parents, not in dr's offices, not in the hospital, etc, etc. And most ppl. don't use them. And no law enforcement ever stops anyone.

I'm here also and I just have to double the no education thing. At my first well baby visit the nurse asked me if I put the baby in a carseat, that was it. I actually told her about experation dates. She had never heard of such a thing. She said she will make a flyer in Hebrew and English about basic things many here take for granted but for example this american nurse did not know:

You can leave a child RF past 12 months
It is unsafe to have a child RF if s/he is over the shell
It is safer to leave a kid harnessed even if they *can* sit in a booster by weight.
Carseats expire.

Also I think the reality of money, etc. is different here. People are not going to spend $100 (about what a bucket costs) for a seat that might be used 2x in a taxi. People borrow them from places that loan them out, friends, etc. Also people tend to pass down things, they *look* okay. I have a well educated friend who just had a new baby. She could't believe (I told her) that her infant seat (it's Britax, the best make in Brittin!!) from her 13yo wasn't good. She actually did buy a new seat because her dh thought they needed one, but really, most people wouldn't have. You can give information but you can't force people. Everyone has a different level of risk / saftey they are comfortable with, and you can give people all the inforamtion in the world, but that doesn't mean attitudes are going to change right away about why it isn't okay to use an infant seat that *looks* perfect except it's 6 years old, especially if you only use an infant seat for a few months and it's your last kid. (and no, buying a convertable isn't usually an option, I haven't seen very many convertable seats here at all, and the ones I do see are very expense).


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelEve14* 
I'm here also and I just have to double the no education thing. At my first well baby visit the nurse asked me if I put the baby in a carseat, that was it. I actually told her about experation dates. She had never heard of such a thing. .


I live in the US, and the extent of any "education" regarding carseats with my first son, was a nurse midwife i was seeing, who clearly didnt like me and wasnt nice to me, asking me if i had a carseat for impending babe, then gruffly said "they won't let you leave the hospital with the baby with out one!!" (i switched midwives and had a homebirth, anyway)....no doctor ever mentioned carseats, if i recall. With the new foster baby i have, no one mentioned carseats. Judging from posts in this forum, there is a huge amount of ignorance in the US regarding carseat use, even though we have access to all the info and plenty of carseat choices. People have posted how they have gotten incorrect info from their *pediatricians*! And i would venture that the VAST majority of parents here do not realize there are expiration dates. I consider myself a pretty educated parent, and yet it wasnt until earlier this year when i posted on this forum, did i find out about the expiration dates. (I was saving my son's old seat from 1996 to use w/ a foster child....i had NO idea!)

BelovedBird....i'm really not sure what you want people to say? I guess you want an acknowledgement that something is better than nothing, and that there are places in the world where its hard to get and use a carseat properly?? I would guess most people here know that.

I find, however, that you are being intentionally argumentative. Rather than say over and over that its just not possible, its not your reality, etc etc.....why not ask for suggestions on helping the situation? You really seem to want us to say its ok that you gave your friend an old carseat....? Why not look for alternatives for your friend to get a newer seat? Oh thats right...its just not possible...there is no way.....no suggestions will work.

If you live in a place where cars dont have seatbelts.....there isnt much to do.







Why argue the point? Its kind of like going to a breastfeeding board and arguing why formula is ok in certain circumstances...well, yeah, duh. But thats not the point of the board. How does it help further the point of the board (safety) to get people to "admit" that you were right, an old seat is better than no seat.

I dont get it.









Katherine


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

RE: Point of the thread. Stated outright in the OP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
So, can anyone give me actual studies or anything that shows exactly what the risk is in using expired seats? Thanks.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
for me, this would never be an option. You don't _need_ a fancy crib, or _swing_, or _toys_, you don't need any of that, but if you have a baby and a car, or you plan on riding in a car with a baby, then you *need* a car seat. A "car seat" means a safe car seat that is not expired or has been in a collision. Let's just say hypothetically, I move to a country where car seats are not the norm, I would bring my seats from this country and lets just say I have another baby and need a new infant car seat, I would either buy one online and have someone bring it to me or I would leave said country to get one, that's me. There is no option.

If you could afford to do so, of course. That's a gigantic assumption, though.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
RE: Point of the thread. Stated outright in the OP.

Right. but what is the purpose of needing such studies? (Which i doubt exist in the way you are wanting.)

Did you watch the video someone posted, about the ten yr old britax's straps breaking? What did you think of that?

If you've given your friend an expired seat, you basically have a couple of options....say "oh well, its probably safe---they havent given me studies to show otherwise. Besides most people here dont even use carseats, so she's lucky to even have one!" OR you can do your best to help her get a safer seat. There have been lots of suggestions here on how to do that, they may or many not be doable where you live. Such is life.









Katherine


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
RE: Point of the thread. Stated outright in the OP.

Probably the best avenue to go for finding the scientific data is to ignore car seats specifically, and look at the data available for the plastics industry. The link I posted previously would be a good start in understanding what different types of plastics are used for different applications. You could contact seat manufacturers and find out specifically what they use, and then get industry research and data on the chemical process of breakdown in those plastics.

The reason why there isn't research specifically on car seats, I expect, is because the engineers who work for the car seat manufacturers are looking at the info on the materials (which is known in high detail) and using that as their guide in designing the specs. They crash-test the seats, but since it's not possible within the constraints of the space-time continuum to leave a carseat on the shelf for six years, crash-test it, and *then* date-stamp its littermates, they have to go by what's generally known about the life of the plastic.

There are crash-tests of expired seats, and they do fail spectacularly. How often? Dunno. The whole process of car seat testing is somewhat shrouded in mystery, and finding an otherwise perfect expired seat is a bit tricky too. I suppose they could do some ex-post-facto testing, by retaining samples of each batch and crash-testing at five, six, eight, and ten years after DOM, and I guess if they failed they'd make it clear "The seat really, truly IS expired." But they also would have to keep those seats under similar conditions, etc.... the entire prospect of doing what you're talking about is fairly daunting.

And real-world data is only semi-useful too. Sure, there are a lot of car crashes, but you can't compare two events unless they are remarkably similar, so you can't really say that the reason *this* car seat failed while *that* one succeeded in protecting its occupant was a difference in age. Sure, it might be really likely, but the conditions aren't controlled, so there's no scientific certainty to that method.

If you want scientific proof, you will need to go to the source (the plastics industry). I hope you never get any real-world confirmation of the issue.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
but the science is the same here as there.


But that's what she's asking for, the science. And not a single poster has given any.

I hear your question, BB. Am picturing how you're going to get home with all that stuff and the babe and the Bub (an affectionate term for your DH







... just being poetic) ... but can't see it.

When we moved here, we had the two carry-ons for each plus several large pieces of luggage. We bought a car seat for the flight (we didn't have a car in NY and only rode buses there, so never had one) ... and at this end, we fit all our stuff in, under and over a 'private taxi' ... and there was no way to put DD#2 in a car seat. Period. We were all totally and entirely surrounded by our suitcases and boxes, couldn't even see each other during the ride (it was one of those mini van thingies ... not a minivan but a mini van, with an aisle up the middle) and the driver ("I not man'yak!") refused to find something to tie the carseat to a seat ... because there were no seat belts to buckle it on to.

Sooooo ... I held DD#2 (2yo at the time) on my lap, with an enormous duffle bag in front of us/across our field of vision ... all the way from the airport to Be'er Sheva. And none of us, not me, DH, nor any of the kids, had a seat belt on.

Not saying that it was a positive thing at all. We were ... very stressed. (Despite his protestations, the driver was abso-bleepin'-lutely a complete man'yak.) But it does happen. From the very same airport BB is heading to and stressing about car seats for ...


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## crunchymamatobe (Jul 8, 2004)

BB, I get what you're saying.

We've ridden in taxis a couple of times with our DS in a sling, tied to one of us. Not the safest thing in the world, but safer than being completely unrestrained and you do what you have to do to make the trip sometimes. I get it.

I have seen whole families - parents with babes in arms and older children - riding on a single motorcycle in Laos and Cambodia. In Cambodia I saw a woman riding a bicycle with a tiny infant in a scarf, hammock-style, between her handle bars. I think some of the posters on this thread should remember that as correct as they may be about car seat safety, there are places in the world where such vigilence just isn't an option.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

From the very same airport BB is heading to and stressing about car seats for ...
I dunno...the question to me didnt seem to be "i live in a place where there arent usually seat belts in the cars, i have to take a taxi/bus/minivan to the airport and won't be able to buckle up the kids....is this ok?! I'm freaked out!!!" because in that situation, yes there will be people saying things like "just dont go" or "i wouldnt live in a place like that" and other unhelpful advice, but i bet alot of people would give sympathy, say that sucks, but you have to sorta deal with the reality you are in.

but that is not the question that seems to be asked? She wants to know if an *expired* seat is better than no seat at all, and wants data to support why expired seats are bad. what does that have to do with any of what you wrote? Remember, this thread is a spinoff of the freecycle thread, which discussed whether its ok for expired seats to be passed on to moms who otherwise might not have a seat at all.

it seems to me that most people on this thread are saying basically the same things: expired seats are not safe....they are probably safer than no seat at all, but still not safe, and you should do whatever you can (within your current reality) to obtain a safer seat.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that?









If someone lives in a place or is in a situation where they must use a seat that may not be safe, and they can't do anything about that due to their circumstances, thats unfortunate, and sad, but that is their reality. They need to realize that their child is at risk, but if there isnt anything to be done...there just isnt.







But the OP seems to want posters here to say "its ok"....its not ok. It may be unavoidable (i'm not sure if it is, or isnt, the OP has completely shot down any advice or suggestions people have given to remedy the situation)...but that isnt the same as it being safe. Just because something may be "the safest option available at the time" doesnt mean its safe.

Katherine


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
But the OP seems to want posters here to say "its ok"

No, I want what I stated someone to tell me when and how the seat becomes unsafe. What happens between 4 years and 364 days and 10 years? Why not say seat are disposable, only good for one year?

Quote:

the OP has completely shot down any advice or suggestions people have given to remedy the situation)
_Which are?_
Remedy what situation?

I am not arguing, I am asking questions.

I was never looking for practical advice on what to do in my life. I mentioned my life as an aside. I'm asking for a conversation on this whole idea of car seat expiration. Which is a fairly new idea to me. All I'm getting is people talking AT ME. Its pretty irritating and unhelpful.

Rach, car seats were never, ever brought up to me by anyone else. Everytime I got a car seat it was because I thought it was a good idea, I wanted to do what seemed logically safer to me. 10 years ago we owned a 1970s car with no seatbelts at all. We installed the car seat by harnessing it with tris straps.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i thought Ironica answered your question pretty well. If you want the research for the plastic deteriorating go to the plastics industry.

as far as the issue of 5 years 364 days vs/ 6 years (most car seats expire at 6 years, but not all), i think thats a matter of the manufacturer and the testing.

i do think there are links here. i for one dont feel like reinventing the wheel though and i am getting to a point where i dont think there is anything good enough to be said in this thread. it just seems argumentative to me.


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