# I'm tired of negotiating



## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

My kids have been getting on my last nerve with this lately. Everything lately is an argument or negotiation. (Talking about my dds here, ages 6 & 4).

I tell them to do something, but they have better ideas about what they should do. Example -

I'm cooking dinner, and they are just getting in my way, etc. I tell them to go in the living room or the playroom. They say "well, I can just sit here" or "I'll stay here and be quiet" - sounds like a solution if they would actually do what they're suggesting. It goes on and on until I have to threaten time-outs, give time-outs, and shout. Oh, and they negotiate time-outs as well.

This happens with EVERYTHING I tell them to do. They negotiate and argue constantly and it's driving me up a wall. I just want them to listen to me. I feel like they are walking all over me, like THEY are the ones in control.

Help!!!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't have any complete ideas to help, but I do have a starting point, maybe. It doesn't seem like you mind negotiation. What you mind is them not following through with their side of it. If they said, "I'll just sit here" and then just sat there, it sounds like you'd be fine, but they aren't really negotiating so much as trying to distract you or something along those lines.

So I guess the starting poing might involve something like, "You told me that last time but then you didn't actually just sit there. If you'd sat there last time like you said you would, I'd be fine with you sitting there now. But you didn't follow through and now I can't trust that you'll just sit there this time. I have a hard time cooking when you're walking around in the kitchen, and on top of that, it's dangerous. I need there to be no movement but my own while I'm cooking."

Of course, that puts you back where you started, which is why it isn't a complete solution. Still, I think it accurately labels what's happening and that might help them understand specifically what is bothering you. Also, negotiation is a valuable tool, and if they would actually do it _and follow through_, it might make your life easier.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Sign on door of kitchen:

Quote:

KITCHEN CLOSED. No entry except to those cooking dinner or setting the table.
Period. That's the rule. Rulebreakers get chores (setting the table, doing the dishes afterwards). No negotiation. Serial rulebreakers get no dinner, the natural consequence of having disturbed mom so much that she was unable to make the dinner for enough people.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess* 
Serial rulebreakers get no dinner, the natural consequence of having disturbed mom so much that she was unable to make the dinner for enough people.

That would only be a natural consequence if there actually were no dinner cooked and nobody got to eat.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.


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## joanna0707 (Jan 2, 2009)

How about getting them involved in cooking?
4 and 6 yo can do a lot, they can wash vegetables, cut vegetables etc.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That would only be a natural consequence if there actually were no dinner cooked and nobody got to eat.

This is also an option. One person fails to cooperate - everyone suffers.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
How about getting them involved in cooking?
4 and 6 yo can do a lot, they can wash vegetables, cut vegetables etc.

That's what I do. If you are in the kitchen you are helping cook. My now 8 year old is amazing in the kitchen and actually enjoys cooking.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.

For cleaning up disaster zones, I think most kids really do need help. They don't know where to start. Yesterday, my daughter had friends over and her room was turned upside down. Afterwards, she was almost in tears when I told her that it had to be tidied. We tidied it together. I gave her directions - first the trainset. Put all those pieces in the box. I'll deal with the playmobil. Etc.

When kids really just don't want to cooperate (and it's not because they really do need your help), I think the natural or logical consequences are appropriate. You don't feeling like helping me out with supper (in an age appropriate manner of course)? Ok, I don't really feel like making supper then. You don't want to pick up that pencil? Ok, I'll pick it up, but now it's mine, because it's obvious to me that you don't care enough about it to take good care of it.

No warnings, no negotiating. Just apply the consequences. And no conceding afterwards (e.g. once you take the crayon or whatever, it is gone. They don't get it back because now they have decided that they will pick their crayons up.)


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"This happens with EVERYTHING I tell them to do. They negotiate and argue constantly and it's driving me up a wall. I just want them to listen to me. I feel like they are walking all over me, like THEY are the ones in control."

I have an almost-6 ds and an almost-4 dd. I feel your pain.

I do a lot of what I call "order of the universe" setup to try and get the things that are most important to me accomplished without endless debate. We don't go downstairs to breakfast until everybody is dressed. We don't have lunch/watch TV until lessons are complete. We don't go upstairs for bathtime until the playroom is picked up. Etc. As far as they know, we do things this way because God told us to.









I have been known to drop the hammer pretty hard on occasion when I give an explicit instruction and it's ignored. Taking the item under debate and throwing it away, leaving a fun public venue, etc. Continuing to argue/whine when the adult has stated that their decision is made is a big no-no in this house. I don't think it's gentle or respectful or consensual or what-have-you to raise a child who is not CAPABLE of obedience when the situation calls for it. But every time I can find a workaround that minimizes such debate, it always works so much better than any form of enforced compliance or silence.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess* 

When kids really just don't want to cooperate (and it's not because they really do need your help), I think the natural or logical consequences are appropriate. You don't feeling like helping me out with supper (in an age appropriate manner of course)? Ok, I don't really feel like making supper then. You don't want to pick up that pencil? Ok, I'll pick it up, but now it's mine, because it's obvious to me that you don't care enough about it to take good care of it.


I don't consider this gentle discipline. To me it sounds mean spirited and like it would promote a tit for tat environment.

To the original poster - I think you need to think about where you are willing to negotiate and to spell that out. What is negotiable. It is probably needs to be more than you want and less than they want - compromise. I would work on teaching problem solving skills and in making plans ahead of time to address ongoing problems. Identify problems - "you want attention, I want to get dinner on the table, what can we do?"


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

It sounds like you are open to a resonable amount of negotiation, but that your children don't know where the boundary to that is. It's okay to set a boundary when you need one, even if it's just for your own sanity.










Just because you'd be okay with their end of the bargain if they sat still in the kitchen doesn't mean you have to feel guilty for not wanting them in the kitchen at all. It's okay to request a few minutes of space and simply tell them "this is not up for negotiation, please leave." Then (nicely, but firmly) ignore all of the pleading and negotiation. All of the reasons why don't need to be explained until they accept an answer. You can just repeat "this is not up for negotiation. Go play in the living room." Become a broken record. If they don't leave, you can give a choice, "either you leave on your own by the time I count to ten and go play, or I will remove you to time out." Don't get into the arguments.

Sometimes, it's okay to be in control and get your needs met. They don't have to agree with everything or be happy about every single thing 100% of the time. They don't have to acknowledge that they understand all of the reasons. They're quite intelligent. They know why, they just don't agree.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

You feel like they're in control because they are. And it sounds like that is not working for you. As has been said, you need to figure out your preferred style of family, your chosen method of discipline, and then stick to it.
Here, negotiation is compeltely unacceptable. It's considered a form of "talking back", which is not permitted. We are a much more authoritarian discipline style than many on this board though. Once you figure out what style/type/level of dicipline you want to enforce, then it would be easier to help give you tips as to how to go about implementing your plan.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

For topics that occur again and again, I'd cut them cold. "No, this isn't a choice, you need to move. Now."

Then talk to them about it later. E.g. for the dinner prep hassles, at dinner you could talk about how it makes you stressed to have them in the kitchen when you cook and ask for suggestions on how things could be improved. They might come up with ideas like you put chairs by the kitchen door and they can sit there and watch, or one kid sets the table and the other kid acts as your sous-chef and does stuff like throwing away veggie peelings and wipes up spills with a cloth, or even without tasks they just take it in turns to be with you in the kitchen, maybe with a timer for 5 minute intervals. Who knows, but whatever it is, if they come up with it, they'll be happier with the solution.

And then you can say "we agreed XYZ".

Basically since in the moment negotiations are not desirable for you, but you do want your kids to have a say when something bothers them, move the negotiations so they happen in advance and then have your kids stick to the joint decision.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Oh good Sapphirechan, I knew I was forgetting something.
We use that line a lot "this isn't a choice".
Now, i am all for giving children choices, sometimes, for some things. But I also firmly believe they need to learn they do not ALWAYS get a choice (I realize some people disagree, and thats fine, but here, kids do NOT always get a choice)


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Just want to pipe in and say that this is completely age appropriate. I am going through this in spades. I try keep that in mind as often as possible. That my 6 year old is testing the limits of his autonomy. I'd love to have you think that I am always calm and rational with my children, but that wouldn't be the truth. Last night as a matter of fact I lost it, literally threw my hands in the air, walked away and yelled to myself, "F#@k, just once I'd like to suggest teeth brushing and PJs without an argument." Sadly my outburst shocked my kid into submission and he headed straight for the bathroom to brush his teeth.

Like previous posters, I try and allow some negotiating, but I do have to set boundaries. If someone promises to put toys away after supper, then I remind them as soon as they leave the table. If they start to go for something else to play with instead I give a firm, "Um no way, you cannot get another toy out until all the blocks are picked up. You said you would do it after dinner, and dinner is over, now pick up the blocks."


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Last night as a matter of fact I lost it, literally threw my hands in the air, walked away and yelled to myself, "F#@k, just once I'd like to suggest teeth brushing and PJs without an argument."

Now see, *that* was a natural consequence.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Sometimes, it's okay to be in control and get your needs met. They don't have to agree with everything or be happy about every single thing 100% of the time. They don't have to acknowledge that they understand all of the reasons. They're quite intelligent. They know why, they just don't agree.











More than sometimes, I think *most* of the time in terms of having kids cooperate in day-to-day living routines.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

It's the age







. My five year old son is the exact same way. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is just note their objection, and either tell them that they've made a good point and you'll try their way this time, or that you understand their objection and things still have to be done your way.

Also, you could try letting them in a bit more in the making of decisions, instead of them having to argue after the decision is made. For example, say it's getting close to bedtime. Instead of saying "You're going up to bed in 10 minutes" try something like "It's close to bedtime. How many reasonable minutes do you need to finish up what you're doing?" and then let them give you 15 or less, or whatever. After they say that though, it's final, so no "just one more minute" over and over. There's nothing that can't be saved until the next day.

I think the bright side of all this is that the arguing shows cognitive growth. Our kids are starting to realize that they do have their own lives to consider. I don't always drop everything to get into bed right on time, even though I should. (Did great last night though, I was only 12 minutes late for bed!







) They are also starting to see even more that they are completely separate people from us. Soon they'll stop thinking we can see through walls and read their minds. Oh well, that was fun while it lasted.


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## Materfamilias (Feb 22, 2008)

It really does seem like sitting down as a family and discussing behavior and consequences might be a good idea. And one of the things you could discuss is what's going to happen when anyone in the family says s/he is going to do something and then doesn't follow through. Then, you impose the consequence but it's the one everyone knew was coming.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks for your input, and I'm glad to know I'm not the only one! I've been meaning to reply but we've been having a stomach bug going around our house and I still am not feeling right









I've been a bit firmer in telling them when they don't have a choice, and discussing things beforehand. It really has made things easier. Thanks again!!!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm glad things are going better!

I parent better when I allow myself to "insist" on some things. I'm still considerate of his desires, though, and will consider his suggestions for a solution. Often, his solution is better than my original idea! But if his "solution" isn't actually agreeable to me at all, I have no problem insisting.
(or if I can think of another solution, I might put that out there, but only if he's genuinely interested in a mutually agreeable solution. Not if he's just stalling, or will only accept his way, etc)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.

I was going to say to this, my reply to the crayon picking up thing would be "No, put it where it belongs" or "No, put it on the table.'


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Thanks for your input, and I'm glad to know I'm not the only one! I've been meaning to reply but we've been having a stomach bug going around our house and I still am not feeling right









I've been a bit firmer in telling them when they don't have a choice, and discussing things beforehand. It really has made things easier. Thanks again!!!











I don't know if you'll come back to this thread to read more -- hopefully you will feel better soon -- but, the only thing that I would add to what others have said is to try as much as possible to LIMIT the number of requests/orders that you give them, and only ask something of them when you really mean business and when you are prepared to follow through and make sure your rule is followed.

Example: "You can stay in the kitchen if you are going to SIT there, or HELP me cook. If you don't follow instructions, then you must leave and go do something else". Then, when they don't follow the rule that you have laid out, immediately escort them out of the kitchen and say "I'm sorry you aren't following the rules. You need to find something else to do now". If you are prepared to give them another chance at following the rules, state something that they must do to prove to you that they are ready to follow the rules.

Try to limit the number of things like this (above) that absolutely MUST happen to 5 requests per DAY. (yes, you read that correctly! Only 5 a day!). Pick the 5 most important things to work on today, and start working on them as above. State the rule: (When you are dressed for school, you may sit at the table for breakfast). And follow through (don't give breakfast until they are dressed for school). If they don't get dressed for school, call in to work and say you'll be late, and drive them to the school late and make them get a late slip at the office. Make sure THEY tell the receptionist at the office why they were late for school. Or send them to school in their PJ's with a change of clothes in their backpack if they don't get dressed...

etc.

Once those 5 items that you picked are under control and they have developed a habit and you don't need to remind them every day, then move on to the next 5 things that are bothering you.

My DD and DS are the same too -- they negotiated with everything. I too have been too lenient and I need to follow my own advice with consistency. I know when I have done the above in the past, it worked beautifully. I just need to keep it up! It can be hard at times, but we can do it!


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
It sounds like you are open to a resonable amount of negotiation, but that your children don't know where the boundary to that is. It's okay to set a boundary when you need one, even if it's just for your own sanity.









Just because you'd be okay with their end of the bargain if they sat still in the kitchen doesn't mean you have to feel guilty for not wanting them in the kitchen at all. It's okay to request a few minutes of space and simply tell them "this is not up for negotiation, please leave." Then (nicely, but firmly) ignore all of the pleading and negotiation. All of the reasons why don't need to be explained until they accept an answer. You can just repeat "this is not up for negotiation. Go play in the living room." Become a broken record. If they don't leave, you can give a choice, "either you leave on your own by the time I count to ten and go play, or I will remove you to time out." Don't get into the arguments.

Sometimes, it's okay to be in control and get your needs met. They don't have to agree with everything or be happy about every single thing 100% of the time. They don't have to acknowledge that they understand all of the reasons. They're quite intelligent. They know why, they just don't agree.

Great post I think. I think giving them a long, drawn-out explanation for why you want them out of the kitchen (as a couple of the pp's suggested) is sort of playing into their hands. This negotiating thing is what is out of control. I don't believe it's the *slightest bit* harmful to tell them to go do this or that and that there will be _no negotiations_. You are the parent, remember that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
Great post I think. I think giving them a long, drawn-out explanation for why you want them out of the kitchen (as a couple of the pp's suggested) is sort of playing into their hands. This negotiating thing is what is out of control. I don't believe it's the *slightest bit* harmful to tell them to go do this or that and that there will be _no negotiations_. You are the parent, remember that.

My suggestion was five sentences, and really teh same thing could be said in three sentences. That is not long and drawn out. I do think it's bad to never negotiate with kids, because negotation is an important tool in society and they have to learn it somewhere, IMO the best place is at home. Also, "playing into their hands" is only an issue if you see your kids and yourself as being on different teams. I don't look at it that way. The kids' motivation was to be with their mother. That isn't an evil motivation worthy of working against them. They weren't able to be with her without getting in her way, and therefore couldn't be in the kitchen, but I don't think this kind of thing has to be handled with harshness or is best handled that way.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My suggestion was five sentences, and really teh same thing could be said in three sentences. That is not long and drawn out. I do think it's bad to never negotiate with kids, because negotation is an important tool in society and they have to learn it somewhere, IMO the best place is at home. Also, "playing into their hands" is only an issue if you see your kids and yourself as being on different teams. I don't look at it that way. The kids' motivation was to be with their mother. That isn't an evil motivation worthy of working against them. They weren't able to be with her without getting in her way, and therefore couldn't be in the kitchen, but I don't think this kind of thing has to be handled with harshness or is best handled that way.

I don't think it's bad to _ever_ negotiate with your kids, and didn't say that. And nobody said anything about "evil" motivations lol. Why go to extremes?

But the OP mama clearly is having a problem or she wouldn't have posted about it. In this case, the kids seem to be milking the "negotiations" to stall for time and to get their own way, because they don't want to do what she's asking them to do. That's my impression anyhow, only going from what the OP has posted.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
Great post I think. I think giving them a long, drawn-out explanation for why you want them out of the kitchen (as a couple of the pp's suggested) is sort of playing into their hands. This negotiating thing is what is out of control. I don't believe it's the *slightest bit* harmful to tell them to go do this or that and that there will be _no negotiations_. You are the parent, remember that.

And see, I think they do need the long explanation, just not at the point where they need to be out of the kitchen. "this is not up for discussion, stay out of the kitchen" later on "you guys want to be with me in the kitchen when I make dinner, but that makes it hard for me to make dinner, etc, etc..."

Which is what the OP tried and has said has helped.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
I don't think it's bad to _ever_ negotiate with your kids, and didn't say that. And nobody said anything about "evil" motivations lol. Why go to extremes?

But the OP mama clearly is having a problem or she wouldn't have posted about it. In this case, the kids seem to be milking the "negotiations" to stall for time and to get their own way, because they don't want to do what she's asking them to do. That's my impression anyhow, only going from what the OP has posted.

Well as I said, they arent' really negotiating, they're just stalling, so I agree with that. But I think it helps to say just what's going on. "You said that but you didn't follow through. Now I can't trust you will actually stay sitting, so you'll have to sit somewhere else." There, two sentences that time. Anyway, not a long drawn out thing, but still an explanation helps.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Have you tried telling your kids you need your "personal bubble space" or "time alone" for x-amount of time--but they are welcome to join you again after that time?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I parent better when I allow myself to "insist" on some things. I'm still considerate of his desires, though, and will consider his suggestions for a solution. Often, his solution is better than my original idea! But if his "solution" isn't actually agreeable to me at all, I have no problem insisting.
(or if I can think of another solution, I might put that out there, but only if he's genuinely interested in a mutually agreeable solution. Not if he's just stalling, or will only accept his way, etc)
This is us exactly. I will engage in a legitimate discussion, but I have no problem "insisting" after a certain point.

For me this is an issue of respect--not in the old fashioned sense of respect because I'm an adult, but human-to-human respect. If I am cooking for you, I am doing something really nice for you. You should show respect for people who are helping you. Otherwise, they stop wanting to help you.

The good news is that your kids are big enough to feed themselves. They can fix yogurt, sandwiches, fruit, cheese, etc. by 4 years old. If this were a post about a 2 year old my response would be different. But this is part of growing up--the more you can do for yourself, the more others will expect your appreciation and cooperation when they do nice things for you. Nobody expects a baby to be grateful for being fed. But by 4 years old--yes, I would introduce this concept. Certainly, your 6 year old is plenty old enough to get it. I am not a servant. I get to decide whether I want to cook for a rude person. This is very freeing. Rather than be frustrated, be grateful--here is a chance for your kids to learn something new about mom! The only way my son can learn what I will/won't tolerate, is by showing him what I will/won't tolerate. Not by controlling him, but by controlling _myself_. And guess what? I won't cook for someone who is rude to me in the process. I just will not do it. I trust my child is intelligent enough to decide how important it is, after all, that I cook for him. He can choose to be rude and make his own food, or he can be polite and have mom cook him a nice meal. Guess what else? This isn't even my problem, is it? It is his problem. Again, no reason to be upset. Relax, go enjoy your own dinner, and let the kids make their own decision. In my experience, kids love finding these REAL limits. Kids love the real. Rather than being upset or feeling unloved, they get clear, real fast, with their own priorities. They get it. Really, they do. Or at least the kids I know do.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.

We totally had this here too. I would tell dd, "Look either you're going to do it, or I'm going to do it. If I do it, you won't be happy because I'll take it away for awhile." At first she would tantrum loudly but I'd stick to my guns. Over time she got it. Although she protests loudly at my firm rules, she tells me "I love you" a whole lot more. (Just a side note)


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Well I think you need to figure out if this is a natural developmental stage or if they are testing your consistency/their control.

I remember all my siblings going through this stage...they are learning that they can manipulate (and I don't mean that in a bad way) their part of the deal.

Meanwhile, I have an 11yo brother who is doing this exact same thing b/c he simply wants to get his way and he knows that if he negotiates, he buys time. And if he does it enough, he gets ignored b/c frazzled mom needs to move onto the next issue.

JMO but I'm leaning towards the latter b/c the negotiation they are giving on the surface seems to be geared to you. For example, my mom wanted my brother to help out in the kitchen. "Well, mom, I need to finish putting my library books away. You don't want them to get dirty."

Yeah right. As if an 11yo cares about that.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I sometimes try playful engaging my dd's cooperation, sometimes I tell her the exciting things we will do when the task I ask her to do is completed (not if but when though at night when can't happen after 8:00), and sometimes I do the broken record thing "I'm not asking, do it now" in a serious voice. I also think a discussion is also a good thing to have around any issue that you are having a hard time finding a solution for as a parent, I find discussions to be very helpful with my dd because she often has a lot to offer and is more willing to do what I ask her to do when she feels valued enough to be asked her opinion.


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