# Ugh. Church vent



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I left the nursing moms' room today. Another mom was talking about how she is using CIO on her 3 month old. Another mom, who is very into Ezzo, was telling her how it would get easier.









I told her that I believe that God gave us the instinct to respond to our babies' cries for a reason and that if He responds when we cry out to Him that surely we should do the same for our babies. That was ignored. I had a lot of things I wanted to say, but I knew that it would just escalate into a mess. It made me so sad, though, that after a couple of minutes I just excused myself. Thanks for letting me vent!


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I think you put that very very well about God responding to our cries. I've stomached painful comments like this (I think the baby was around MAYBE 4 months) b/c I didn't have the relationship with the dad speaking to get into it. Poor babies!


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## thedevinemissm (Apr 9, 2004)

Not much to say, other than I know how frustrating it is...

I, too, find it very difficult in church some times. Not to get into a "Christian" debate ~ but I don't understand how poeple can be so heartless to their children on so many levels (circ, spanking, formula, CIO) and believe that it is in-line with a Christ-like way of life or the way that God would want us to parent such a precious gift.


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## Sagesgirl (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thedevinemissm* 
Not much to say, other than I know how frustrating it is...

I, too, find it very difficult in church some times. Not to get into a "Christian" debate ~ but I don't understand how poeple can be so heartless to their children on so many levels (circ, spanking, formula, CIO) and believe that it is in-line with a Christ-like way of life or the way that God would want us to parent such a precious gift.










My feelings exactly.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Similar thing at a church dinner last night....

First I had two older ladies tell me that she should not sleep with us, but then admit they did it with at least one of their children, and say something like, you gotta do what gets you the most sleep.

Second: We ate dinner at a table full of new parents/ pregnant ones..... One lady weaned her dc at 6 weeks because it was a hastle. Other things she also said were making me go grrr... She is way into Ferberizing. Then DD wanted to nurse, so I nursed. I am a very discrete nurser BTW. DD was having some problems because of all the noise, so I went into the foyer until she got really going. The lady said, when I came back nursing, that she was glad when I had left.... then she say DD was still nursing. I talked to one of the other moms, and she really wants to breast feed. So I encouraged her and gave her some of the ideas which worked for me.

Also, I was the only one there wearing my baby in any form. Most were in buckets.

Sorry to thread jack.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Thanks for letting me vent!

Thanks for reminding me why I dislike going to church and have no desire to be around people like that. ( MIL thinks I should join a church so I could meet other friends. ) I have nothing against people who do go to church, but so often their ideas and views regarding childrearing are just so far removed from my own, I just couldn't put on a happy face and pretend I was ok with what they were doing. Ok, OT time over. Continue on!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thanks so much to everyone for validating my feelings. If only those poor little babies had the same level of support!









I think the most profound parenting advice I've ever heard is when Jesus said to treat others the way we would like to be treated. I don't understand why so many Christians act as if that only applies to dealing with adults.


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## thomlynn (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope that they will see you as an example of good parenting and fall in line. Good luck dealing with them in the future.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I just wanted to say that not all churches are like this, its just a matter of finding a place that feeds your spirit but that also works for your family.

I had been attending a church where I felt like the odd lady out because whenever I was in the nursery I was the only Mama nursing for longer than 6 mos and not actively trying to wean. Also my dd did not care for the nursery but she was too active to be in the pews during the service.

I was in prayer on the issues because it was really bugging me and dh & I have found a start up church where everyone lives a lifestyle that would be considered AP though no one calls it that. On our first visit a Mama was telling me how she tried putting her dd (2.5) in daycare and it didn't work so she is at home with her. (she actually thought I was going to judge her because of this) All the Mamas have nursed over a year and kids are encouraged to hang loose during the service and its quite ok for my dd to get up and toddle around. I should add that this is a evangelical church with baptist roots, however the pastor is young (40).

I say all this to say don't be discouraged, there is a place for you.









Shay


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Our church is very AP. I can't think of anyone there who doesn't breastfeed. Most moms don't use the nursery until the baby would rather be there than sitting in service. A sling is a normal thing there and at least one other mom goes to our local LLL.


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

I tell Christian Ezzo-ites that FoF has a public statement against using Ezzo's advice. They're usually pretty taken aback by that.


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## linguistmama (Sep 25, 2006)

I hate when that happens, like children aren't people who deserve respect too!
At our church there is a nursery for children starting at 18 months and pretty much everyone takes their children there. I have been going and staying with dd for a few weeks now to help her get used to it and its awful! So many of the kids cry when their parents dump them off and leave them there for 2 hours. The people in the nursery try diferent things to get the children to stop crying, but don't take them to the parents because "the only way they'll get used to it is for them to cry alot." What on earth is so important that my child needs to cry for that long?! I would be ok leaving dd as long as I knew that they would bring her to me, but they rarely do that. Today I realized that I won't ever be able to leave her there since I would never know if she were crying the whole time like some of the other children. Its too bad, because when I have been working in nurseries at other churches we took them to the parents if they needed them and usually the kids had a great time playing and singing etc.
I know this is half hijacking the thread and half related to it.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
I told her that I believe that God gave us the instinct to respond to our babies' cries for a reason and that if He responds when we cry out to Him that surely we should do the same for our babies.

you're exactly right, and i just want to say that i think that is a beautiful analogy.







it's hard not to show that you're upset, or get upset over those kind of comments, but what you said was perfect. believe that you struck a cord with those ladies, even though they were pretending to ignore you, i think they definately heard you and just didn't want to look stupid, and be like, "ya know? i think you're right! what am i doing!?" kwim? i bet they were thinking just that.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm so sorry. I've already left one church due to Ezzo pushers, and now am dealing with spankers at my current church. Someone left the Pearl books in the church library and I totally flipped. The pastor removed them. More recently they put Dobson links on their website, and I've complained. They all think I'm weird.

good for you for sticking up for the babies - how horrible for them.


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## heythere heather (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
I tell Christian Ezzo-ites that FoF has a public statement against using Ezzo's advice. They're usually pretty taken aback by that.

Do they have it on their website? I couldn't find it.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
I told her that I believe that God gave us the instinct to respond to our babies' cries for a reason and that if He responds when we cry out to Him that surely we should do the same for our babies.


Well put. I wish I would have thought of that when I had someone at my church tell a new mom that the Ezzo book is great because it's teaching an infant to "rely on God to fall asleep".









Shannon


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## chicagodawn (Mar 5, 2005)

To the original poster, good for you for your response! I hope it makes some of them think. It just makes me sick to think of an infant left to cry. And Ezzo is a complete nut case.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but did want to respond to one other post, I can't just let it "sit there"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thedevinemissm* 
I don't understand how poeple can be so heartless to their children on so many levels (circ, spanking, formula, CIO) and believe that it is in-line with a Christ-like way of life or the way that God would want us to parent such a precious gift.



do not assume in every case that formula is cruel - how fortunate you are to be in the position to judge. My son had severe severe food allergies, we tried eliminating food item after food item from my diet, while he lost more and more weight, pooped and vomitted blood. Finally at 4 weeks, when he was in danger of being hospitalized, we started him on a prescription formula called Neocate. I continued to try to pump to maintain a supply, but every time we tested my milk he still reacted. as it turned out, he was 13 months old before we full identified all of his allergies. So Ben ended up purely formula fed.

You are saying that formula was cruel? I so desperately wanted to bf, but in my mind it was cruel to continue when he was reacting so horribly to my breastmilk.

But lucky you, free to judge.

Again, to the original poster, I am so sorry your church is that way, I DO think you had the perfect response. Our church is so supportive of AP, babies in slings (no one uses the nursery, I think it starts at age 3 for classes).

Dawn
Ben 6-15-04
baby girl edd 2-22-07


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Dawn -- It sounds like you did everything you could to nurse your DS. I'm sorry you were unable to do so, and even more sorry you feel judged. I think we all (AP & mainstream parents) need to remember to not cast stones.









OP -- This is why I steer clear of Christian parenting books and advice. God responding to our cries is one reason DH and I decided against CIO. Sometimes we doubted our decision in light of all the Christian parenting advice to the contrary. I like Dr Sears, but I wish gentler forms of parenting could find a stronger foothold among evangelical Christians.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxwill129* 
Well put. I wish I would have thought of that when I had someone at my church tell a new mom that the Ezzo book is great because it's teaching an infant to "rely on God to fall asleep".









Shannon


Surely you jest. Please tell me you are kidding. Please.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagodawn* 
To the original poster, good for you for your response! I hope it makes some of them think. It just makes me sick to think of an infant left to cry. And Ezzo is a complete nut case.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but did want to respond to one other post, I can't just let it "sit there"

do not assume in every case that formula is cruel - how fortunate you are to be in the position to judge. My son had severe severe food allergies, we tried eliminating food item after food item from my diet, while he lost more and more weight, pooped and vomitted blood. Finally at 4 weeks, when he was in danger of being hospitalized, we started him on a prescription formula called Neocate. I continued to try to pump to maintain a supply, but every time we tested my milk he still reacted. as it turned out, he was 13 months old before we full identified all of his allergies. So Ben ended up purely formula fed.

You are saying that formula was cruel? I so desperately wanted to bf, but in my mind it was cruel to continue when he was reacting so horribly to my breastmilk.

But lucky you, free to judge.

Again, to the original poster, I am so sorry your church is that way, I DO think you had the perfect response. Our church is so supportive of AP, babies in slings (no one uses the nursery, I think it starts at age 3 for classes).

Dawn
Ben 6-15-04
baby girl edd 2-22-07

Mama, my ds had the same issues. I bf my dd til she self weaned, but my ds has medical issues, which force him to drink a special hypoallergenic medical food. I did the same elim diet, etc, and nothing worked. at 9 mos, my milk was gone, and i fought for a month to bring it back with no luck.

no one her is judging formula feeding for necessary medical reasons. The intent of the thread was to sympathize with the OP about her church situation .


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## thedevinemissm (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagodawn* 
do not assume in every case that formula is cruel - how fortunate you are to be in the position to judge. ....
But lucky you, free to judge.

Dawn







,

Please know that I would *NEVER* assume that *every* case of formula is cruel. I completely acknowledge that formula serves a purpose on this earth and probably has legitimately saved the lives of a small percentage of babies. I have a friend who undertook MONTHS of agony in trying to rule out issues with DD#2 which ultimately were "cured" by formula. I have another friend that had to supplement for the first several months of her DS#2 life due to his health issues. I also know several adoptive mothers for whom breastfeeding is not an option.

_HOWEVER_ ~ what I was referring to (and I ask you to note that it was a quick short post w/o full explanations to all the ifs/exceptions) are the mommies who will not be "bothered" or "hassled" by breastfeeding, who think it's "gross", or who feel that formula is actually SUPERIOR to breastmilk. It was a comment on how parents could accept a parenting philosophy _*as a whole*_ that puts their own needs/desires/convenience above the emotional and physical needs of their children.


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
I tell Christian Ezzo-ites that FoF has a public statement against using Ezzo's advice. They're usually pretty taken aback by that.

Oh! I wasn't aware of that. I don't care for Dobson's approach to parenting, but I do use a 'take what you want and leave the rest' approach to anything FoF. Thanks for sharing that...do you have a link that I can hold onto for future reference? I am the only babywearer at my church, too. We haven't been going long enough to learn who bf's and how long, though.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I googled it and came up with this:http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/dobsontranscript.htm

which led to this:

http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/FOTFstatement.htm


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Wow. I've never read any of the Ezzo's books because their reputation preceded them. I have, however, read one of Dobson's books and was surprised at some of the non-GD things in there. And if _Dobson_ thinks Ezzo is not recommended, then it must be really really bad.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

My thoughts exactly!


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## chicagodawn (Mar 5, 2005)

Thank you, ThedevinemissM, and everyone else for your sweet messages back. Ben's food allergies, his rough start in life and the related lack of nursing is still very upsetting for me, and I do struggle with the assumptions others make because he was formula fed a prescription formula.

I started visiting MDC because I'm pregnant again and thought this would be a good place to get nursing advise (very restricted diet this time, eliminating all of Ben's allergens so we can nurse). Thanks again for being so supportive.

James Dobson seems pretty loony to me, and even HE thinks Ezzo is nuts?

Dawn (very glad that poptarts and oreos are dairy/soy/egg/nut free!







)


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## HeatherMO3 (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thedevinemissm* 
Not much to say, other than I know how frustrating it is...

I, too, find it very difficult in church some times. Not to get into a "Christian" debate ~ but I don't understand how poeple can be so heartless to their children on so many levels (circ, spanking, formula, CIO) and believe that it is in-line with a Christ-like way of life or the way that God would want us to parent such a precious gift.










I thought you might be interested in reading Proverbs 22:15. There are multiple others which I don't know off the top of my head, but this one came to mind.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagodawn* 
Thank you, ThedevinemissM, and everyone else for your sweet messages back. Ben's food allergies, his rough start in life and the related lack of nursing is still very upsetting for me, and I do struggle with the assumptions others make because he was formula fed a prescription formula.

I started visiting MDC because I'm pregnant again and thought this would be a good place to get nursing advise (very restricted diet this time, eliminating all of Ben's allergens so we can nurse). Thanks again for being so supportive.

James Dobson seems pretty loony to me, and even HE thinks Ezzo is nuts?

Dawn (very glad that poptarts and oreos are dairy/soy/egg/nut free!







)

we are 16 mos o ut, he is on neocate jr, and i am relactating in a frantic attempt to give him live immunity.

i totally understand where you're coming from

feel free to pm me sometime..we can get on messenger and chat for support


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## kat85 (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherMO3* 
I thought you might be interested in reading Proverbs 22:15. There are multiple others which I don't know off the top of my head, but this one came to mind.


Can you interpret this verse for me, please because I understand it another way.


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