# 8 year old autistic girl handcuffed at school



## Zan&Zav (Nov 25, 2006)

http://www.kxly.com/global/story.asp?s=9669140

this sickens me







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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Over a sweatshirt?! Thats insane. Let the kids wear a cow sweatshirt, whats the big deal?


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

It sucks that it happened, that much I do agree with, but what else could've happened? The little girl was kicking, pinching and spitting on teachers when all they were doing was trying to keep her from leaving. They weren't trying to forcibly remove her cow sweatshirt or punishing her for wearing it, they were just trying to keep her from walking out the door.

Had they let her go and let her leave it would've been a news story about an 8 year old autistic kid being allowed to leave school on her own. Instead they called the police and her mother, which to me seems like the sensible thing to do. She certainly couldn't be allowed to kick and pinch the police so they restrained her.

There is no happy ending to this story. They could've let her go. And been sued. They could've left her in the room alone to cool off. And been sued. They could've let her wear the cow sweatshirt. And then what about the other kids who have to adhere to the dress code? They would've been sued. They could've let her continue to physically abuse the teachers and waited for her mom to show up. And let the teachers sue.

Hate to say it, but I'm with the school on this one.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

I didn't read it as leaving the school. I read it as leaving to attend the Christmas program (which would be at school but in another room?)

I still don't understand how it couldn't be handled differently. I have an extremely strong-willed Autistic son and we have these types of situations and the actions that staff will take outlined in his IEP. So strong willed in fact that I've had to go get him from school because he wouldn't return to his classroom or was taking swings. Thats when we called an emergency meeting and made sure ALL staff knew exactly what to do to handle him and what they could have done instead to avoid the situation.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I've heard of lots of different dress codes, but never one where it was somehow inappropriate to wear a shirt with a cow?! What's the issue? *lost*


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
It sucks that it happened, that much I do agree with*, but what else could've happened?* The little girl was kicking, pinching and spitting on teachers when all they were doing was trying to keep her from leaving. They weren't trying to forcibly remove her cow sweatshirt or punishing her for wearing it, they were just trying to keep her from walking out the door.

Had they let her go and let her leave it would've been a news story about an 8 year old autistic kid being allowed to leave school on her own. Instead they called the police and her mother, which to me seems like the sensible thing to do. She certainly couldn't be allowed to kick and pinch the police so they restrained her.

There is no happy ending to this story. They could've let her go. And been sued. They could've left her in the room alone to cool off. And been sued. They could've let her wear the cow sweatshirt. And then what about the other kids who have to adhere to the dress code? They would've been sued. They could've let her continue to physically abuse the teachers and waited for her mom to show up. And let the teachers sue.

Hate to say it, but I'm with the school on this one.

They could have not started a fight over a stupid cow sweatshirt and just let her go to the Chrstimas Party. There was no need to make her put the ears down and tuck in the tail. They were on a power trip plain and simple.

ETA: Is it horrible that I fully expected that to have happened in Florida?


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kristine233* 
I didn't read it as leaving the school. I read it as leaving to attend the Christmas program (which would be at school but in another room?)

I still don't understand how it couldn't be handled differently. I have an extremely strong-willed Autistic son and we have these types of situations and the actions that staff will take outlined in his IEP. So strong willed in fact that I've had to go get him from school because he wouldn't return to his classroom or was taking swings. Thats when we called an emergency meeting and made sure ALL staff knew exactly what to do to handle him and what they could have done instead to avoid the situation.

The little girl said that she was trying to leave, as did the mom. Maybe I read it wrong.


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## Sileree (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Hate to say it, but I'm with the school on this one.

Same here. I think taking the kid to juvie was a bit much, but what else could they do?


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
They could have not started a fight over a stupid cow sweatshirt and just let her go to the Chrstimas Party. There was no need to make her put the ears down and tuck in the tail. They were on a power trip plain and simple.

But what about everyone else? If the school doesn't allow all of the children to dress up like cows (ducks/dogs/cats/chickens) then why her?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sileree* 
Same here. I think taking the kid to juvie was a bit much, but what else could they do?

Not be all power trippy and freak over a little girl in a COW shirt?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm absolutely against the school on this one. They should've let her wear her shirt. They should've had a better plan on how to help this girl handle her emotions. They should've called her mother earlier. They never should've involved the police, and obviously the police shouldn't have handcuffed her or taken her to juvie, and charges should never have been pressed to begin with. And this girl shouldn't be suspended. The school personnel seem unable or unwilling to work with a child on the spectrum. That needs to be addressed. I'm also very upset that the mother wasn't a part of the safety plan put together for her own child. I hope the parents are successful with their civil action. And I hope they're able to find a better educational setting for their child.

And, yes, I'll go ahead and say it. It's stories like this that reinforce my committment to homeschool my children. My oldest son is probably on the autism spectrum. He has meltdowns on a daily basis over issues that most people would consider to be minor. If I can handle them throughout the day, every day, without calling the cops on my child or assaulting him, then I think someone at a school should be able to as well. Unfortunately, due to news stories such as this, I can't trust that they would even try to work with my child in a gentle, caring manner.


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## pink gal (Feb 27, 2008)

This story is heartbreaking. The school should have had a plan in place to help de-escalate behavior in an age appropriate way for children with special needs. Any 8 year old would be terrified to be taken from school in handcuffs without a trusted adult.

I hope this will lead to significant change in policy for that scfhool and any others who don't have the resources to deal calmly and appropriately with behavioral challeges that should be anticipated in advance when working with kids with difficulty with self regulation.

The school should be helping to teach the child self calming strategies and ways to cope when stressed, not causing more stress. A cow sweatshirt and untucked shirt tail is an issue for them-yikes!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But what about everyone else? If the school doesn't allow all of the children to dress up like cows (ducks/dogs/cats/chickens) then why her?

WAs she dressed up as one? Thought it was a sweatshirt. How this is worth all the hoopla is so beyond me...







:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I'm absolutely against the school on this one. They should've let her wear her shirt. They should've had a better plan on how to help this girl handle her emotions. They should've called her mother earlier. They never should've involved the police, and obviously the police shouldn't have handcuffed her or taken her to juvie, and charges should never have been pressed to begin with. And this girl shouldn't be suspended. The school personnel seem unable or unwilling to work with a child on the spectrum. That needs to be addressed. I'm also very upset that the mother wasn't a part of the safety plan put together for her own child. I hope the parents are successful with their civil action. And I hope they're able to find a better educational setting for their child.

And, yes, I'll go ahead and say it. It's stories like this that reinforce my committment to homeschool my children. My oldest son is probably on the autism spectrum. He has meltdowns on a daily basis over issues that most people would consider to be minor. If I can handle them throughout the day, every day, without calling the cops on my child or assaulting him, then I think someone at a school should be able to as well. Unfortunately, due to news stories such as this, I can't trust that they would even try to work with my child in a gentle, caring manner.

For. Real.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
WAs she dressed up as one? Thought it was a sweatshirt. How this is worth all the hoopla is so beyond me...







:

If you watch the video, the little girl is wearing the sweatshirt. It's not just a shirt with a picture of a cow. It's almost a costume. There are ears that stick up in the air on her head and a tail on her backside.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
How about stand in front of the exits and let her calm down without being held down? Adults in the room... Aspie girl not being held down which likely only exasperatied the whole thing.

Or.... Let her wear the damned sweatshirt. Who cares if she goes to a Christmas party in a cow sweatshirt? I highly doubt it had to do with a dress code since she was allowed to wear it before it was time to go to the party.

Sorry, there is no reason to arrest an 8 yo. Certainly no reason to haul her off in handcuffs before mom even gets there.









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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
If you watch the video, the little girl is wearing the sweatshirt. It's not just a shirt with a picture of a cow. It's almost a costume. There are ears that stick up in the air on her head and a tail on her backside.

Then, yeah, let everyone wear 'em.







Why not? It was ok for school. It it WORTH this drama? Crazy. Sometimes there are bigger issues. RULES AT ALL COSTS is dumb. Period.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
How about stand in front of the exits and let her calm down without being held down? Adults in the room... Aspie girl not being held down which likely only exasperatied the whole thing.

Then what happens when she tries to walk out of the door anyway? Let her pinch and spit on the teachers till she wears out?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Then what happens when she tries to walk out of the door anyway? Let her pinch and spit on the teachers till she wears out?

They should have picked their battles more wisely. I am of the opinion this little girls feelings and well being trump a seemingly absurd dress code.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Then what happens when she tries to walk out of the door anyway? Let her pinch and spit on the teachers till she wears out?

Um, I'm pretty sure an adult can stand in her way and not be knocked over. My guess is the pinching and spitting started because they restrained her. Not uncommon for children on the autism spectrum. Not uncommon for children not on the spectrum in fact.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
If you watch the video, the little girl is wearing the sweatshirt. It's not just a shirt with a picture of a cow. It's almost a costume. There are ears that stick up in the air on her head and a tail on her backside.

If it was against the dress code why didn't they call the mom when she arrived at school to tell the mom the clothes violate the dress code? Why did they way until it was time to go to the party?


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I've heard of lots of different dress codes, but never one where it was somehow inappropriate to wear a shirt with a cow?! What's the issue? *lost*

From what I read, the teacher asked the girl to 'tuck the tail in and pull the ears/hood off her head. The girl responded with, 'I'm not taking off my sweatshirt'. It seems she was never asked to actually remove the sweatshirt.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If it was against the dress code why didn't they call the mom when she arrived at school to tell the mom the clothes violate the dress code? Why did they way until it was time to go to the party?

Because that would make too much darn sense!


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
From what I read, the teacher asked the girl to 'tuck the tail in and pull the ears/hood off her head. The girl responded with, 'I'm not taking off my sweatshirt'. It seems she was never asked to actually remove the sweatshirt.

You know.. tucking in the tail sounds very uncomfortable. Who cares.. Just let her wear it. Power Trip.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Because that would make too much darn sense!

Heaven forbid things ever make sense!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
You know.. tucking in the tail sounds very uncomfortable. Who cares.. Just let her wear it. Power Trip.

Apparently comfort is meaningless.







Rules is (stupid) rules!


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Apparently comfort is meaningless.







Rules is (stupid) rules!









I am getting sick of arbitrary rules and this countries one size fits all approach to well.. everything.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I am getting sick of arbitrary rules and this countries one size fits all approach to well.. everything.


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## KnockedUpButtercup (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
And then what about the other kids who have to adhere to the dress code?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But what about everyone else? If the school doesn't allow all of the children to dress up like cows (ducks/dogs/cats/chickens) then why her?

The reward for the other kids is this: they get to _not be autistic._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
They could have not started a fight over a stupid cow sweatshirt and just let her go to the Chrstimas Party. There was no need to make her put the ears down and tuck in the tail. They were on a power trip plain and simple.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Not be all power trippy and freak over a little girl in a COW shirt?

Yeah that! ^^^^^

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Then what happens when she tries to walk out of the door anyway? Let her pinch and spit on the teachers till she wears out?

I think she was leaving the classroom to go to the party, not leaving the building.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, I'm pretty sure an adult can stand in her way and not be knocked over. My guess is the pinching and spitting started because they restrained her. Not uncommon for children on the autism spectrum. Not uncommon for children not on the spectrum in fact.

Word. I've had kids with autism, oppositional defiant disorder, etc. in my classes before, and mainstreaming them can be awkward and tiring for the adults involved, but I just think this didn't need to get to this point. I believe those teachers don't know a thing about autism, or they've been trained but don't really _believe_ in it, or they were just sick of her and decided to be obstinate and let nature take its course.

H.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i'm sorry but when you are working with special needs kids of any kind pick your freaking battles. if your not willing to just let some stuff go then get a new job. they escalated this not her. it was their responsibility to be able to step back and say 'its not worth the fight let it go' and they chose not to do that.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

oooh.. this sounds like a tough call IMO.

If the parent wasn't aware of the protocol on how the school handles a melt-down, what did she think would happen? What was the parents' plan for the school?

Of course the school escalated the problem by not knowing how to deal with an autistic girl, but were they trained? Were they special-ed teachers?

I can't understand how it came to this point if the parent was aware that the child "dug her heels in" on certain issues and the school was aware that she had asperger's. Sounds like there wasn't much communication between the two before an issue erupted.

*sigh*
/kolleen


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But what about everyone else? If the school doesn't allow all of the children to dress up like cows (ducks/dogs/cats/chickens) then why her?

It's a power thing..."You *WILL* fall in to our cookie-cutter existance and if you don't then we will make you." There is no room for the one child who wants to be different. And that's the point....WHY freaking NOT?

*1littlebit* said:
"I'm sorry but when you are working with special needs kids of any kind pick your freaking battles. if your not willing to just let some stuff go then get a new job. they escalated this not her. it was their responsibility to be able to step back and say 'its not worth the fight let it go' and they chose not to do that. "

EXACTLY.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Why did the mom allow her to wear the sweat shirt?

Whas there a compromise that they drew a line at going to the party. They can control a small class room a lot better than the rest of the school about why this girl is wearing this cow sweat shirt. Watching the situation is easier with 1 of her verses 20 other kids verses maybeing 1 her plus the rest of the school. I actually could see how the jacket would be a disctraction to the others. Yes the other kids should behave but at the same time tucking the tail in and putting the ears down is a simple compromises. She could have her sweatshirt and not be a distraction to others.

Yes, I think the school could handled it better. But at the same time I can see why they would want her to tuck in the tale. Mainstreaming is about making other kids accept her and her more accepting to others.

I can see potential whys they might need to restrain/block her from going out. Esspecially when she was upset and determind but getting the police involved? She never should have been arrested.

The school needs better training for the adults involved.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I can see potential in helping the other students gain compassion and understanding. And learning about why sometimes others get special treatment and why we don't throw fits over it...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Why did the mom allow her to wear the sweat shirt?

Whas there a compromise that they drew a line at going to the party. They can control a small class room a lot better than the rest of the school about why this girl is wearing this cow sweat shirt. Watching the situation is easier with 1 of her verses 20 other kids verses maybeing 1 her plus the rest of the school. I actually could see how the jacket would be a disctraction to the others. Yes the other kids should behave but at the same time tucking the tail in and putting the ears down is a simple compromises. She could have her sweatshirt and not be a distraction to others.

Yes, I think the school could handled it better. But at the same time I can see why they would want her to tuck in the tale. Mainstreaming is about making other kids accept her and her more accepting to others.

I can see potential whys they might need to restrain/block her from going out. Esspecially when she was upset and determind but getting the police involved? She never should have been arrested.

The school needs better training for the adults involved.

If they want the other students to accept her, they can teach them to accept her just the way she is. Not try and make her appear normal just because it makes them feel better to brag that the other students accept her.

Seriously, forcing her to look and act normal is not going to teach the other children to accept someone who's different. It's going to teach them to accept those who act just like them.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If it was against the dress code why didn't they call the mom when she arrived at school to tell the mom the clothes violate the dress code? Why did they way until it was time to go to the party?

I'm thinking that she didn't have it on until it was time to go the party. It was a hoodie, so maybe she had it off when she got to school and then went into the cloak room and put it on for the party. It's highly possible that is the first time the teacher saw the hoodie.

Although, it wasn't some grandiose costume, it was a spruced up hoodie... geez what's the big deal!

/kolleen


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I'm thinking that she didn't have it on until it was time to go the party. It was a hoodie, so maybe she had it off when she got to school and then went into the cloak room and put it on for the party. It's highly possible that is the first time the teacher saw the hoodie.

Although, it wasn't some grandiose costume, it was a spruced up hoodie... geez what's the big deal!

/kolleen

That seems a bit of a streach to me. I mean how many kids drag their favourite shirt to school just to put it on later?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

OMG, what if someone took a PICTURE at this party and put it in our little elementary school yearbook! OMG, people will KNOW that we have an autistic child in the class. SHE WILL RUIN THE PICTURE!! If she doesn't wear the cow shirt, at least she'll LOOK normal!!

I hope I don't have to point out that I'm being sarcastic. Let the girl wear the cow shirt, hood, tail and all. Who freaking cares? Let everyone wear one, what's the harm?

Oh, and if _anyone_ held be down, I would kick and scream and bite and spit, and I hope that my children would do the same. It's called a survival instinct.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Who freaking cares? Let everyone wear one, what's the harm?

That's the point. Rules for the sake of having rules =







:


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
That seems a bit of a streach to me. I mean how many kids drag their favourite shirt to school just to put it on later?

She was outside in the snow during the interview with it on. My son wears a hoodie for his jacket (no matter how cold it is out) and his winter jacket sits there and grows small for him.

I guess I don't see it as a stretch that she gets to school, takes off her jacket, then later goes to put it on for the party.

/kolleen


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
She was outside in the snow during the interview with it on. My son wears a hoodie for his jacket (no matter how cold it is out) and his winter jacket sits there and grows small for him.

I guess I don't see it as a stretch that she gets to school, takes off her jacket, then later goes to put it on for the party.

/kolleen

Wearing it outside doesn't mean she only wears it for a jacket. It just means she wears it. Even if she _does_ wear it for a jacket, being a jacket doesn't automatically mean it comes off once you get inside.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Who freaking cares? Let everyone wear one, what's the harm?

I'm with you on that. But there obvious wasn't a protest or a meeting about changing those rules before the girl wore the hoodie, hence the problem.

I still don't know why there wasn't some sort of safety net put in place for this girl as an agreement between the parent and the school in case there was ever an issue, yk?

/kolleen


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I'm with you on that. But there obvious wasn't a protest or a meeting about changing those rules before the girl wore the hoodie, hence the problem.

Seems like common sense to me, you don't need a meeting to understand that it's ok to be lax and back off sometimes. It's always a good idea to model graciousness!


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Wearing it outside doesn't mean she only wears it for a jacket. It just means she wears it. Even if she _does_ wear it for a jacket, being a jacket doesn't automatically mean it comes off once you get inside.

Yes, there is that possibility also. I don't think either one is significantly more feasible than the next one. She could of easily had it off.

Do you think the teacher taught class while a kid was wearing a hoodie with cow ears?

/kolleen


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm taking college courses now (again) and I've seen _grown-ups_ in class with winter hats with ears on them (some of the classrooms are really really cold). In fact, one guy had the coolest hat I've ever seen. It looked a lot like those crankypants longies. But it wasn't a problem because our professor wasn't on a power trip and was able to conduct herself like an adult.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I'm taking college courses now (again) and I've seen _grown-ups_ in class with winter hats with ears on them (some of the classrooms are really really cold). In fact, one guy had the coolest hat I've ever seen. It looked a lot like those crankypants longies. But it wasn't a problem because our professor wasn't on a power trip and was able to conduct herself like an adult.

Sadly, things often ok for adults are a huge deal for kids.







Figures.







:


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
It's always a good idea to model graciousness!









You're too gracious to our public school system! I am completely against the way we educate kids in the US (a la Ivan Illich and hence homeschooling), but I don't think I'd trust a teacher being gracious during a moment like that with all the other pressures they have.

/kolleen


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
You're too gracious to our public school system! I am completely against the way we educate kids in the US (a la Ivan Illich and hence homeschooling), but I don't think I'd trust a teacher being gracious during a moment like that with all the other pressures they have.

/kolleen

I agree - that's why mine don't go there.


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## reece19 (May 21, 2008)

You don't get a special pass to kick, hit and spit on anyone because you have any type of special need. If calling the police is the school protocol when a child spits on a teacher, then they need to do it when any child spits on a teacher.

Every school I have worked at has had that particular spitting rule. Once bodily fluids are involved, consequences are swift.

Now, they probably could have handled the escalation a little better. Preventing the child from becoming that upset would be the best plan, of course. Hopefully it goes better next time.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Sadly, things often ok for adults are a huge deal for kids.







Figures.







:

That reminds me of the time my son walked into a restaurant and he said something loudly, the waitress passing by said "shhhhh" to him. Not ever five minutes later a large middle aged man walked into the restaurant and was exceedingly loud. The waitress just bantered with him.

My son got his first lesson in ageism. :sigh:

/kolleen


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Haven't read any replies. I have a HUGE issue with all of it.

Quote:

School officials responded to a request for an interview for this story by e-mail, with the district superintendent saying they followed a specific safety plan for Evelyn which was *agreed upon by the district and her mental health provider.*

Quote:

"I never saw the plan, I never signed the plan," Spring said.
This NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED. School dress code be damned







: You CAN let one kid get away with things others can't - my own SN kid was allowed to roam around the classroom in one school during reading time because he couldn't sit down. It didn't disrupt the class, no one else asked to roam, it worked because the adults set the example that it was ok for some people to get things others don't. I'm so angry for this mama and her DD I could spit nails.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reece19* 
You don't get a special pass to kick, hit and spit on anyone because you have any type of special need. If calling the police is the school protocol when a child spits on a teacher, then they need to do it when any child spits on a teacher.

Every school I have worked at has had that particular spitting rule. Once bodily fluids are involved, consequences are swift.

Now, they probably could have handled the escalation a little better. Preventing the child from becoming that upset would be the best plan, of course. Hopefully it goes better next time.

If the school hadn't made a big deal over NOTHING it never would have happened. Their fault. Totally. Period.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Dragon* 
Haven't read any replies. I have a HUGE issue with all of it.

This NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED. School dress code be damned







: You CAN let one kid get away with things others can't - my own SN kid was allowed to roam around the classroom in one school during reading time because he couldn't sit down. It didn't disrupt the class, no one else asked to roam, it worked because the adults set the example that it was ok for some people to get things others don't. I'm so angry for this mama and her DD I could spit nails.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
That reminds me of the time my son walked into a restaurant and he said something loudly, the waitress passing by said "shhhhh" to him. Not ever five minutes later a large middle aged man walked into the restaurant and was exceedingly loud. The waitress just bantered with him.

My son got his first lesson in ageism. :sigh:

/kolleen

I'd of walked out the second she did that.


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnockedUpButtercup* 
The reward for the other kids is this: they get to _not be autistic._

That comment made me ill.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
Seriously, forcing her to look and act normal is not going to teach the other children to accept someone who's different. It's going to teach them to accept those who act just like them.

*Or* it will teach them that everyone is equal and follows the same rules. How is teaching children that others can be held less responsible while they are held accountable for their own actions? That's a horrible lesson.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9*
That reminds me of the time my son walked into a restaurant and he said something loudly, the waitress passing by said "shhhhh" to him. Not ever five minutes later a large middle aged man walked into the restaurant and was exceedingly loud. The waitress just bantered with him.

My son got his first lesson in ageism. :sigh:

*Exactly*. They should have been treated the *same*, right?


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Then the school should be held accountable for their part in this fiasco. The child had special needs - and yes, she gets concessions. Big deal. Life's not always fair.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Would you be saying that if it was kindergartener hauled off in handcuffs for spitting?

I don't get the US schools sometimes. They seem to have all these regulations to stop problems, but they seem to have even more problems then here. I don't get it (or maybe I do!?). You don't get the policed called on you for spitting on a teacher. You get the principal and your parents called, but that's it. You don't have your choice of clothes severly limited. I don't think it's just because Canadian kids are better behaved. Some of them can act pretty horrendus at times. But I have noticed that kids seem to be better respected as individuals who don't fit into one mold. I mean I've noticed there seem to be a great deal of schools that wouldn't even let my DD in the front door based solely on her choice of clothes in the US. But so far we've had one teacher that didn't appreciate her creativity, and the principal sided with us on the matter.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

An 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an Aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with Asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... applauded?


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
*Or* it will teach them that everyone is equal and follows the same rules. How is teaching children that others can be held less responsible while they are held accountable for their own actions? That's a horrible lesson.

Yup, every student has a right to be a clone and to prove it, we make every single one of them look and act just like all the other.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
an 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... Applauded?

amen.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Yup, every student has a right to be a clone and to prove it, we make every single one of them look and act just like all the other.









We can't have such crazy antics as 8 yr. old children in cow sweatshirts...oh the humanity! What's next, mismatching socks?!


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
An 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an Aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with Asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... applauded?


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







We can't have such crazy antics as 8 yr. old children in cow sweatshirts...oh the humanity! What's next, mismatching socks?!

Ooh, not mismatched socks...

Um... can you be the one to tell DD that mismatched socks are bad? Please?


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Ooh, not mismatched socks...

Um... can you be the one to tell DD that mismatched socks are bad? Please?

Yeah, make a stranger do it...nice...it's a slippery slope. Maybe bring it up at her next checkup?


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Yeah, make a stranger do it...nice...it's a slippery slope. Maybe bring it up at her next checkup?









Oh the doctor knows.









Apparently she anticipates seeing what outfit DD will come up with when she goes in for a check up.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 

*Or* it will teach them that everyone is equal and follows the same rules. How is teaching children that others can be held less responsible while they are held accountable for their own actions? That's a horrible lesson.

Not everyone IS equal. We don't all have perfect eyesight. We don't all have the ability to walk. We don't all have equally strong immune systems. And we don't all have the capacity to deal with situations in the same way.
So, some of us wear contacts or eyeglasses. Some of us use wheelchairs or leg braces. Some of us visit the hospital more often and take more care with our health. And some of us need help when dealing with some situations.
People with special needs need special care in certain areas. Some should not be held responsible for their actions because they are NOT responsible for their own actions. Not everyone can control their behaviors so well. Not everyone can handle their emotions. Not everyone can react the expected way to sensory input.
We're not all equal in every way. We are not all the same. Thank goodness for that. I certainly wouldn't want for my children to be taught that everyone should be treated the same in every way. That the kid who can't kick the soccer ball in gym class because his legs don't work should get a failing grade for the day for not even trying, for example. We're different. And, when those differences require special accommodations, we should respect that.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

No matter what that girl did, she should not have been taken out in handcuffs. Pinching is not a real threat, sorry. I saw this on TV and the mom seemed a little out of it and the girl had quite a personality- this goes beyond Asperger's, as she was also quite outgoing and physical- and yes, as a teacher I'd have been furious (why did she have the hoodie at school if there would be that temptation??? Just make sure she has school-appropriate clothing! As a parent you need to work with them) but you do NOT handcuff a child with a personality disorder. No way. How horrifying.

NB- I myself have a lot of Asperger's traits but as an introvert, they did not feature like that. I just want to say that Asperger's does not necessarily lead to SPITTING and PINCHING. That is a part of her temperament that needs to be dealt with in addition to, not as, Asperger's. But still not handcuffed! That is insane! And the POLICE! How could they consent to that??? I am really upset about it.


----------



## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
It sucks that it happened, that much I do agree with, but what else could've happened? The little girl was kicking, pinching and spitting on teachers when all they were doing was trying to keep her from leaving. They weren't trying to forcibly remove her cow sweatshirt or punishing her for wearing it, they were just trying to keep her from walking out the door.

From what I understand, she was not trying to leave the school. She was trying to go to the party. As for what they *should* have done.... maybe let her wear the d*mn shirt. Seriously. It's a shirt. Get over it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
If you watch the video, the little girl is wearing the sweatshirt. It's not just a shirt with a picture of a cow. It's almost a costume. There are ears that stick up in the air on her head and a tail on her backside.

So what? It's a shirt. Be glad she's at least wearing one







(I say that as a mom of an autistic 5 year old who has tried to strip down naked in the middle of a classroom before







).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If it was against the dress code why didn't they call the mom when she arrived at school to tell the mom the clothes violate the dress code? Why did they way until it was time to go to the party?

Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
From what I read, the teacher asked the girl to 'tuck the tail in and pull the ears/hood off her head. The girl responded with, 'I'm not taking off my sweatshirt'. It seems she was never asked to actually remove the sweatshirt.

But was it actually explained to her that all she had to do was tuck in the ears/tail? Children with autism (hell, any child) doesn't always hear what's being said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Why did the mom allow her to wear the sweat shirt?

Ummmmm... maybe because that was the only way to get her to school? Why do I let my ds wear pajama pants and a compression shirt every day to school? Because it gets him there. If I forced other pants on him all hell would break loose, he'd flip, huge "fight" would ensue with me forcing him in the carseat and then carry him kicking and screaming into school. After I put him down he would attempt to strip down naked. For the next 3 hours. He wouldn't learn a thing and his classmates would be much more distracted. Much better, IMO, to let the kid wear what he wants to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If they want the other students to accept her, they can teach them to accept her just the way she is. Not try and make her appear normal just because it makes them feel better to brag that the other students accept her.

Seriously, forcing her to look and act normal is not going to teach the other children to accept someone who's different. It's going to teach them to accept those who act just like them.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *reece19* 
You don't get a special pass to kick, hit and spit on anyone because you have any type of special need. If calling the police is the school protocol when a child spits on a teacher, then they need to do it when any child spits on a teacher.

No, you're right. But it NEVER SHOULD HAVE COME TO THAT. Let her wear the shirt. What harm would have come from it? It's a SHIRT for goodness sake!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
An 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an Aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with Asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... applauded?


----------



## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







We can't have such crazy antics as 8 yr. old children in cow sweatshirts...oh the humanity! What's next, mismatching socks?!

I have kids in my pre-k class that wear tutus and mismatching socks. Gasp!

Seriously, I don't get why they made it such a big deal.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
So what? It's a shirt. Be glad she's at least wearing one







(I say that as a mom of an autistic 5 year old who has tried to strip down naked in the middle of a classroom before







).

Not the monopoly of autistic children. I tried the same thing when I was six


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kristine233* 
I have kids in my pre-k class that wear tutus and mismatching socks. Gasp!

Seriously, I don't get why they made it such a big deal.

Maybe they thought it was a gang symbol.


----------



## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

something that is bothering me:
the mom arrived before the police drove off with her. why did they not let the mom take her?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weliveintheforest* 
something that is bothering me:
the mom arrived before the police drove off with her. why did they not let the mom take her?

Probably the same reason they actually charged her with battery...


----------



## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zan&Zav* 
http://www.kxly.com/global/story.asp?s=9669140

this sickens me







:









:

How horrible


----------



## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
*Or* it will teach them that everyone is equal and follows the same rules. How is teaching children that others can be held less responsible while they are held accountable for their own actions? That's a horrible lesson.

Special needs means that she _needs_ other people to interact with her in a _special_ way that suits her condition. So, NO, not everybody are held accountable for their actions to the same extend. What's next? Charging an epeleptic with assault if she accidently hits somebody while she is having seizures?







:
I think that it is obvious that the teachers were not qualified to deal with a special needs child. That's not the childs fault. So obviously the child should not have to go thru the trauma of being hauled of by the police, because the school made the mistake of not educating their staff properly. Handcuffing an _eight year old_ for throwing a fit.







What are these people? robots? Don't they have the intelligence to figure out when it's better for everybody to bend the rules a little bit, just to keep things moving smoothly. Are people really so dumb, that they have to follow a manual for everything, no exceptions allowed. What a sad, sad world.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

I'm so happy that I live in a country that dosen't allow cops to handcuff 8 year olds. You have to be 16 or older to be arrested, handcuffed and charged.
Reading the newsstory is just absurd, horrifying and makes me sick.
Som good posts that can well be repeated:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I'm absolutely against the school on this one. They should've let her wear her shirt. They should've had a better plan on how to help this girl handle her emotions. They should've called her mother earlier. They never should've involved the police, and obviously the police shouldn't have handcuffed her or taken her to juvie, and charges should never have been pressed to begin with. And this girl shouldn't be suspended. The school personnel seem unable or unwilling to work with a child on the spectrum. That needs to be addressed. I'm also very upset that the mother wasn't a part of the safety plan put together for her own child. I hope the parents are successful with their civil action. And I hope they're able to find a better educational setting for their child.

(..)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, I'm pretty sure an adult can stand in her way and not be knocked over. My guess is the pinching and spitting started because they restrained her. Not uncommon for children on the autism spectrum. Not uncommon for children not on the spectrum in fact.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
An 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an Aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with Asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... applauded?

Indeed.


----------



## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

I don't understand why a shirt that was apparently ok for school was suddenly not ok for the Christmas party. As a special ed teacher who worked with several aspie kids it does not surprise me at all that this kid melted down when they changed the rules in the middle of the day.

Also we've had kids punch male teachers in the crotch, slam doors, break picture frames etc and the only time the cops became involved was when a kid ran out of the building and we neede help rounding him up. (We actually got him back inside before they got there and he was fine) We certainly never handcuffed a child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
*Or* it will teach them that everyone is equal and follows the same rules. How is teaching children that others can be held less responsible while they are held accountable for their own actions? That's a horrible lesson.

Fair does not mean everyone gets treated the same. Fair means everyone gets what they need. No one says it's unfair that visually impaired kids get to wear glasses and sit in the front of the room.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Maybe they thought it was a gang symbol.









I have a picture in my head of a street gang a la West Side Story all wearing cow hoodies and doing a dance number.


----------



## KnockedUpButtercup (Feb 20, 2007)

SAHDS said:


> That comment made me ill.
> 
> Why, because it's mean? Because it's clumsily honest? What I'm trying to say (obviously tactlessly - I'm much better with children than adults
> 
> ...


----------



## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
It sucks that it happened, that much I do agree with, but what else could've happened? The little girl was kicking, pinching and spitting on teachers when all they were doing was trying to keep her from leaving. They weren't trying to forcibly remove her cow sweatshirt or punishing her for wearing it, they were just trying to keep her from walking out the door.

Had they let her go and let her leave it would've been a news story about an 8 year old autistic kid being allowed to leave school on her own. Instead they called the police and her mother, which to me seems like the sensible thing to do. She certainly couldn't be allowed to kick and pinch the police so they restrained her.

There is no happy ending to this story. They could've let her go. And been sued. They could've left her in the room alone to cool off. And been sued. They could've let her wear the cow sweatshirt. And then what about the other kids who have to adhere to the dress code? They would've been sued. They could've let her continue to physically abuse the teachers and waited for her mom to show up. And let the teachers sue.

Hate to say it, but I'm with the school on this one.

Wow, i'm really glad you aren't my child's teacher. They held her down and didn't expect any kind of resistance. What about respecting children here. She is 8, not 16. There is no need to call the police if the parent is on the way to get the child.


----------



## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *williamsmommy2002* 
Wow, i'm really glad you aren't my child's teacher. They held her down and didn't expect any kind of resistance. What about respecting children here. She is 8, not 16. There is no need to call the police if the parent is on the way to get the child.

I'd never make it. I'd quit the first time a kid pinched, kicked, and spat on me and *I* was the one who was so blaringly, obviously wrong. All people should be respected, not just children.


----------



## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

KnockedUpButtercup said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SAHDS*
> ...


----------



## KnockedUpButtercup (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *williamsmommy2002* 

Actually because most of us accept our children for who they are. My children have autism but they are not any less valuable than their peers. Neither are their thoughts and experiences. Fwiw, I would not change the fact of who my children are. Those other kids are no better than mine, just different.


Ok, I guess I'm just expressing myself really badly today. My intention was not to imply that neurotypical kids are any better or more valuable than autistic kids. Both of my children are SN - one has a severe personality disorder, one has a mood disorder - and I would react the same way if I felt someone was trying to demean their value or my acceptance of them.

I'm just going to put my tail between my legs and go now!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

All this over her wearing a cow sweatshirt? A cow sweatshirt wouldn't even trip my radar as a potential problem. Why on earth would that even be against the dress code? It's just a hoodie with a cow thing going on.

People get hooked on rules and conformity, when often the rules are there just for the sake of having rules. Worst case scenario? Kids like the cow sweatshirt and get their parents to buy them cow sweatshirts, and there are more kids in cow sweatshirts. Is this a big deal?


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

This isn't about a cow sweatshirt. It's about the girl's overreaction to not getting what she wanted and the school's poor handling of the situation.

Ridiculous on both sides.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
This isn't about a cow sweatshirt. It's about the girl's overreaction to not getting what she wanted and the school's poor handling of the situation.

Ridiculous on both sides.

Well her overreaction is due to autism. And the school overreacted to a cow sweatshirt. Really, what kicked it off was that they didn't want her wearing a cow sweatshirt.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
This isn't about a cow sweatshirt. It's about the girl's overreaction to not getting what she wanted and the school's poor handling of the situation.

Ridiculous on both sides.

8 yr. old autistic girl - overzealous school with idiotic rules being enforced "just cuz"...hmmm....yeah. The school is wrong no matter how you paint it.

It's about rules and power trips, not clothing.


----------



## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
This isn't about a cow sweatshirt. It's about the girl's overreaction to not getting what she wanted and the school's poor handling of the situation.

Ridiculous on both sides.

Just because most kids don't over-react to ridiculous rules, and children with asperger's do, doesn't mean this child should be punnished.

The adults knew the rules were ridiculous, they knew the child would over-react, they committed the only transgression in my opinion.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Probably the same reason they actually charged her with battery...

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Power. Trip. The school needs more of a self control lesson than this poor kid, it would seem.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
Just because most kids don't over-react to ridiculous rules, and children with asperger's do, doesn't mean this child should be punnished.

The adults knew the rules were ridiculous, they knew the child would over-react, they committed the only transgression in my opinion.


----------



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
It sucks that it happened, that much I do agree with, but what else could've happened? The little girl was kicking, pinching and spitting on teachers when all they were doing was trying to keep her from leaving. They weren't trying to forcibly remove her cow sweatshirt or punishing her for wearing it, they were just trying to keep her from walking out the door.

Had they let her go and let her leave it would've been a news story about an 8 year old autistic kid being allowed to leave school on her own. Instead they called the police and her mother, which to me seems like the sensible thing to do. She certainly couldn't be allowed to kick and pinch the police so they restrained her.

There is no happy ending to this story. They could've let her go. And been sued. They could've left her in the room alone to cool off. And been sued. They could've let her wear the cow sweatshirt. And then what about the other kids who have to adhere to the dress code? They would've been sued. They could've let her continue to physically abuse the teachers and waited for her mom to show up. And let the teachers sue.

Hate to say it, but I'm with the school on this one.

She wasn't leaving school. She was heading to the christmas assembly in a cow outfit.

I've worked with autistic kids and unless they are hurting another child or already attacking a facility member there is ZERO reason to hold them down.

Gross negligence. This situation was completely avoidable. Let her wear the damn hoodie.


----------



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
This isn't about a cow sweatshirt. It's about the girl's overreaction to not getting what she wanted and the school's poor handling of the situation.

Ridiculous on both sides.

Over Reaction?

Go look up autism and aspergers. It is a typical reaction. Not over reaction.

Often times when an Autistic kid believes reality should be one way, and it is not, they are thrown into a whirl wind of emotions and confusions. This autistic child, high functioning or not, is still autistic and the school should conform to her and not the other way around.

Rules should be about safety. The only safety I saw in jeopardy was this girls when they held her down. Just let her wear the hoodie.

If I lived in the area I would get parents to do a sit in with cow hoodies to prove a point. The rule is ridiculous.


----------



## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Often times when an Autistic kid believes reality should be one way, and it is not, they are thrown into a whirl wind of emotions and confusions. This autistic child, high functioning or not, is still autistic and *the school should conform to her and not the other way around*.


Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.


----------



## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

It is the JOB of the public school system to accommodate special needs children. You see, before it was their job.. children like this girl would have been locked up in an institution. It's called mainstreaming and it has been going on for decades.

Schools need to get up to par on how to work with autistic children. The child should not have to conform to arbitrary rules which are rediculous for autistic and non autistic children alike.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

So, essentially SN children should be institutionalized or kept at home all the time? I don't see how that's good for this child or good for society.

And it's the schools that choose whether or not to mainstream. They get a butt-load of extra funding for mainstreaming. If they can't serve all children, then this particular school is due for a radical overhaul and change of administration.

And what is the effect on the other students who witnessed a SN child (or any child) being tackled over a cow shirt?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

AniT, we posted at the same time with almost the exact same post! YOu beat me to it!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

As a mother, I would not send my child to school in an outfit that violated the dress code.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm doubting that there was an actual dress code that illustrates what to do with a girl in a cow sweater. Just my gut instinct, but I think they just didn't like the sweater. I seriously doubt there is a specific rule outlawing animal shirts. Usually dress codes attend to attire with offensive phrases, hats indoors, or the minimum length of shorts and skirts.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Here's the dress code from the school's website:
One of our goals for Kootenai students is to instill pride in their school, as well as in their personal appearance. To accomplish the latter, we ask our students to adhere to some reasonable guidelines when dressing for school. The following are compatible with the other elementary schools in our district:
# No hats or visors are to be worn in the building.

# Shorts and skirts must be as long as the person's fingertips with their arms down.

# Shoulder straps must be two fingers wide (no spaghetti straps).

# No halter tops or half shirts (no bare midriffs or backs).

# No clothing that advertises alcohol, tobacco, drugs or is gang related.

# No clothing with suggestive, obscene, or violent writing or pictures.

# Shoes must be worn at all times. Very sturdy sandals and clogs are acceptable. No flip-flops.

Students who do not abide by these dress code guidelines may be asked to change or turn shirts inside out.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Hrm.. I didn't see anything there about cow sweatshirts.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
So, essentially SN children should be institutionalized or kept at home all the time? I don't see how that's good for this child or good for society.

Nope. I didn't say anything of the sort. But if she can't handle a traditional classroom with traditional classroom rules, then how is that fair to her? If everyday things make her have a melt down, then it's obviously detrimental to her mental health and wellbeing to have to deal with them. In addition to being harmful to the mental wellbeing of the children around her to have to witness the melt downs.

But this is far, far away from the topic at hand.

Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

But it does say No hats or visors, so I'd guess a hoodie would be in that category if the hood is up. They asked her to put down the ears (hood?) and the tail. I don't see anything in the rules about a tail though.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

And it's nothing in the school rules about hoods (only hats) or cows on your jumper, so.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

another article:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=6640478&page=1

Quote:

Towry said her daughter didn't even meet the minimum age requirement of 10 to be booked at the county juvenile detention center.

Quote:

And Towry said Evelyn won't be going back to Kootenai Elementary School, where she has been suspended for between two and 10 days.

"I fear for her safety and mental well-being," she said.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

.... Where in the article did it say she was in a traditional class room? There are teachers and rooms devoted to autistic children. Teachers who are supposed to be trained in how to not only handle, but how to better educate the children.

And you are very very mis informed if you think public schools only have ONE child in them that have special needs in each school.


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

I meant to say also, that in the school system where I am there are no hats allowed and that includes hoods, even though it isn't specifically stated.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

But in the end, there's nothing about hoods. Hoods are not hats and hoods are not visors. That's probably how visors came to be in the code. Someone probably said "This isn't a hat, it's a visor" so they revised the code to include visors. But as it stands, hoods are allowed, because they are neither hoods or visors. If you are going to assault a child in order to enforce a dress code, you'd better make sure that she is actually breaking the dress code.

ETA: If a school is going to have an implied rule, then they need to be prepared to give warnings before assaulting a child. If hoods are implied, they needed to give the mother a warning, or clear up the rules with her. Not arrest her child.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
As a mother, I would not send my child to school in an outfit that violated the dress code.

Are you a mother of a special needs child?

Don't judge until you have even bothered to look at the shoe these parents have to walk in.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Nope. I didn't say anything of the sort. But if she can't handle a traditional classroom with traditional classroom rules, then how is that fair to her? If everyday things make her have a melt down, then it's obviously detrimental to her mental health and wellbeing to have to deal with them. In addition to being harmful to the mental wellbeing of the children around her to have to witness the melt downs.

But this is far, far away from the topic at hand.

Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.

Please show me in the school rules that states hoodies can not be worn to assemblies?

A teacher arbitrarily telling a child to take off a sweat shirt does not an official rule make.

The rule she broke was hiting and spitting. She did not break a rule before that.

Can you explain to me WHY she broke that rule and then try to pin it on the parents of the special needs child and not the teachers again?


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 

Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.

What rules is she supposed to be following? Ramama just posted the school's dress code as outlined on their website. No where on it does it say that students are not allowed to wear cow sweatshirts or shirts/hoodies with ears or tails on them. No where does it say that they are not allowed to wear outerwear while indoors (If this shirt was indeed outerwear to start with). So the whole "she wasn't adhering to dress code" line of reasoning is blown out of the water, at least for me. The school and teacher made the conscious decision to blow this far out of proportion and it ended up with a little girl being hauled away in handcuffs and charged. Who knows what all led up to this confrontation, maybe they've been having issues on and off all year long. But that still does not give them any cause to tackle a young girl, pin her down and then haul her to juvenile hall in handcuffs and charge her.

What part of special needs child is not being understood here?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

The public school system is obligated to educate the child unless other arrangements have been made for the child, such as homeschool or private school. If the school determined that the child needed individualized instruction or special education opportunities in order to be educated, it would be their responsibility to provide those things. A series of meetings with staff and parents would be arranged and possibly an Individualized Education Plan would be put into place, from my understanding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Nope. I didn't say anything of the sort. But if she can't handle a traditional classroom with traditional classroom rules, then how is that fair to her? If everyday things make her have a melt down, then it's obviously detrimental to her mental health and wellbeing to have to deal with them.

You're saying that the child shouldn't have to deal with everyday things? How would you make that happen, exactly? In my world, I facilitate my son's interactions with the world and help him through his meltdowns at everyday occurrences. I can't imagine removing him from all experiences completely. That would, IMO, be much more detrimental to his mental health and wellbeing. Instead, we work on ways to deal with them. It's a constant lesson, involving many discussions. But, he does actually enjoy life and experiences, even though he also has meltdowns.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
In addition to being harmful to the mental wellbeing of the children around her to have to witness the melt downs.

Or, it could help the children develop compassion and understanding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.

And, if you can't follow the rules all the time because of how your brain is wired, you don't deserve an education?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Everyone has the right to protect themselves from an unprovoked violent act. Once the teachers entered a physical confrontation, the girl had the right to protect herself.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
.

You're saying that the child shouldn't have to deal with everyday things? How would you make that happen, exactly? In my world, I facilitate my son's interactions with the world and help him through his meltdowns at everyday occurrences. I can't imagine removing him from all experiences completely. That would, IMO, be much more detrimental to his mental health and wellbeing. Instead, we work on ways to deal with them. It's a constant lesson, involving many discussions. But, he does actually enjoy life and experiences, even though he also has meltdowns.

Exactly. You facilitate your son's interactions. You help him. You are acknowledging that he needs extra help, more help than your run of the mill third grade classroom can provide. When he's older, he won't need so much help, but right now he does.

This little girl needs help, too. More help than that third grade public school classroom can give her.

Or, it could help the children develop compassion and understanding.

And, if you can't follow the rules all the time because of how your brain is wired, you don't deserve an education?


Of course they deserve an education. Still can't spit on the teacher while they're getting it.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Yeah, this girl's mother must be doing something completely wrong. Darn those girls and women who dare spit on an attacker. They should just lay still and allow themselves to be assaulted. Women these days...


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Of course they deserve an education. Still can't spit on the teacher while they're getting it.

You seem to think it was the spitting that instigated this. Please read the article again. She didn't spit on anyone until she was forcibly restrained.

God help the teacher that attempts to restraing my son or daughter in any way shape or form. My children will be taught from an early age to defend themselves and if a teacher takes it upon themselves to assault my child, my child will be full within their rights to defend themselves.

This child was attacked and then she was prosecuted for it. If an adult attacks an adult that is called assault. If an adult attacks a child that is called a proper education it seems.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeanine123* 
*What rules is she supposed to be following?*
What part of special needs child is not being understood here?


Quote:

The district recognizes the constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedom of students. With the exercise of rights come responsibilities and duties. Students are responsible for their own conduct and are expected to contribute positively to the learning environment of the school. No student may infringe on the rights of other students by disrupting the educational process.

Specifically, it shall be the responsibility and duty of each student to:

a. Attend and be prepared with appropriate materials and assignments each day on time.

b. Make a reasonable and continuous effort to learn.

c. Respect the rights of others.

*d. Follow the reasonable instructions of district personnel.*

e. Submit to reasonable corrective action or consequences imposed by the District and its
staff for violation of its rules.

f. Comply with the rules of the District and the school.

g. Obey all federal, state and local laws and ordinances.
Likely, the bolded.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
You seem to think it was the spitting that instigated this. Please read the article again. She didn't spit on anyone until she was forcibly restrained.


She wasn't restrained until she refused to do what she was told and then decided that she was going to do pretty much whatever she wanted to do without permission.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

And if a child attacks an adult?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

Go look up autism and aspergers. It is a typical reaction. Not over reaction.
The reason Asperger's is a DIAGNOSIS of an ILLNESS is that people OVER react. If it were just a "different" reaction, this would not merit special treatment. It causes the child and society a problem to get so upset over taking off an item of clothing. It s a problem. Just because it is typical for her does not mean it's okay. Some people have anger-management issues and real violent assult is typical for them. That doesn't make it okay.

Etiology should not be confused with justification!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Likely, the bolded.

That depends on your view of reasonably. I don't consider their request reasonable...


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Exactly. You facilitate your son's interactions. You help him. You are acknowledging that he needs extra help, more help than your run of the mill third grade classroom can provide. When he's older, he won't need so much help, but right now he does.

This little girl needs help, too. More help than that third grade public school classroom can give her.

Who knows how much help he'll need when he's older? I don't have a clue. I'm doing the best I can, and I have the resources to do so. Not everyone does. Not everyone has the ability to homeschool or private school. And they shouldn't have to. The public school system is legally required to provide an education for children, including children with autism. REQUIRED. Every child has the right to a free, public education. If the public school doesn't do their best to meet the educational needs of the children, they are in violation of the law. The school is wrong. If this child needs a one-on-one aide in order to get through the school day, the school is legally required to provide one. If this child needs a specialized plan put in place so that her teachers can better meet her needs without punishing her for her disability, then the school is required to be a part of that process. The school has failed this child, and changes need to be made so it doesn't happen again.
Do you actually believe that kids with special needs - whether autism or Tourette's or dyslexia - don't belong in a public school classroom? Are you going to pay for their private school educations? Are you going to make it so they can be tutored at home?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Of course they deserve an education. Still can't spit on the teacher while they're getting it.

How are they going to get an education if their special needs aren't being met? Are you willing to educate yourself so that you can understand what autism is? What an Aspie meltdown consists of? How much control a child on the spectrum has over her behaviors during a meltdown? Are you at all interested in putting the responsibility on teachers? Or, do you honestly believe that those of us with special needs children also have tons of money to put our kids in specialized private schools?
Public school teachers have a responsibility to the children they teach. They have a responsibility to understand the needs of those children. If they can learn about age-appropriate behaviors and educational expectations of typical kids in their classrooms, they can certainly learn about the needs of the SN kids in their classrooms. If they can't handle the huge responsibility of working with children - children of different cultures, races, sexes, heights, weights, and abilities - then they should find another occupation.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
She wasn't restrained until she refused to do what she was told and then decided that she was going to do pretty much whatever she wanted to do without permission.

I saw no reason to physically restrain the girl. If I, who have had no training in dealing with Autistic children, can see a better way of doing it. Then why couldn't the teachers?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Likely, the bolded.

I don't think you know what Autism is with your answers.

Here are some definitions, and then we will go on to what 'special needs' means.

Princeton.edu

autism ((psychiatry) an abnormal absorption with the self; marked by communication disorders and short attention span and inability to treat others as people)

Wiki-I hate wiki's
Autism is a brain development disorder characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.[2] The autism spectrum disorders (ASD) also include related conditions with milder signs and symptoms

When someone is 'special needs' that means they are not always going to follow the rules to the letter. Hence the special agreement set up between the school and physicians. Which is also supposed to include the parents (legally in washington) to set up the guidelines for the specific child. The child was allowed to wear the hoodie in school, she was asked to remove it for the assembly. If you actually know anything about autism that is not only a change in routine. IE: You can do it here, but not there. Which throws autism kids off, it is also an arbitray break in her already set up rules of the area.

You just can't do that. Welcome to special needs. Oh and as for 'simple reasonable instructions'

To an autistic kid there is no such thing. What makes perfect sense and is very reasonable one minute could be completely contradictory to everything they believe in the next.

Somthing as simple as 'take your shoes off' can be 'ok' one second and 'the end of the world' the next.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"And, if you can't follow the rules all the time because of how your brain is wired, you don't deserve an education?"

If you really can't follow any of the rules that are there to allow people to effectively educate more than three children at a time, your deservedness is not an issue.

You will NOT get an education if you CANNOT learn to listen to and respect other people. It's physically impossible. Not enough room in the brain for IWANTIWANTIWANTINEEDINEEDINEED and "Now I wonder why she is saying that?"

The question is, do other children get to have an education, or do their lives have to be all about this one child's disability?

Again, speaking as an adult with asperger's who somehow, through persistence and high expectations, managed to learn how to deal with other people. Mental illness and disability is not- forgive the pun because again, I completely and totally disagree with their calling of the police- a get-out-of-jail-free card.

NB- This girl had asperger's, NOT autism. They are different. Let's not talk about autism, please.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
And if a child attacks an adult?

Defended themselves against an adult is what happened. Let's drop the what if's.

That wasn't what happened in this situation. If you have a new situation you would like to discuss? I am all for it. But that doesnt seem to be in this topic.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I don't know if I can keep on with this thread. I feel like I'm









A child with special needs. A child with a disability. A child who is being punished for having that disability. A child who was handcuffed and taken to jail for having a disability. An 8 year old child who was handcuffed and taken to jail and suspended from school. Why?
FOR HAVING A DISABILITY.

How is this okay? How is it okay to punish someone for having autism? How is it reasonable? How is it understandable? How can such a thing be defended?

I am at a loss that anyone can be okay with this.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"And, if you can't follow the rules all the time because of how your brain is wired, you don't deserve an education?"

If you really can't follow any of the rules that are there to allow people to effectively educate more than three children at a time, your deservedness is not an issue.

You will NOT get an education if you CANNOT learn to listen to and respect other people. It's physically impossible. Not enough room in the brain for IWANTIWANTIWANTINEEDINEEDINEED and "Now I wonder why she is saying that?"

The question is, do other children get to have an education, or do their lives have to be all about this one child's disability?

Again, speaking as an adult with asperger's who somehow, through persistence and high expectations, managed to learn how to deal with other people. Mental illness and disability is not- forgive the pun because again, I completely and totally disagree with their calling of the police- a get-out-of-jail-free card.

NB- This girl had asperger's, NOT autism. They are different. Let's not talk about autism, please.

Asperger's is on the autism spectrum.
And, I kindly request that you do a bit more reading on what can be expected of a child with Asperger's.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

She was not asked something reasonable, nor was she breaking any rule prior to her being attacked. No, I wouldn't remove an article of clothing just because someone asked me, if I didn't want to. It's not reasonable. Would you be okay if your child were asked to remove a harmless piece of clothing and then was physically attacked for not immediately and dutifully obeying?

I think this is a case of society trying to beat SN people into submission, trying to get them to act "normal" and to "fit in." It's appalling.

BTW, the school's mission statement is laughable: _"Our mission is to provide a safe and affirming atmosphere in which learners acquire skills in the fields of technology and essential curriculum. Students will develop communication skills and basic values becoming independent, responsible, and productive citizens."_

"Safe" apparently doesn't mean freedom from bodily harm. But safe from cow shirts, thank goodness. Those cow shirts are a societal menace. Who are they going to learn "communication skills" from? Teachers who so utterly and completely lack communication skills, to the point of resorting to physical violence? "Basic values", I suppose, include unprovoked violence too. Independence?! Totally ridiculous. As long as you independently do as we say without question or hesitation, no matter how ridiculous the request!


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

If all SN children were removed from public schools and my children were subsequently able to capture more of the teacher's attention, perhaps even perform better on tests, have more of the tax payers money spent on *their* education, _I would still object to the absence of SN children!_ Every child has the right to a public school education, and every public school system has the responsibility to do whatever is necessary to provide that education! I do not want my children living in a society where SN children are swept under the rug, living in an insular society were we pretend that SN people don't exist! That would be doing MY children a great disservice, not to mention the disservice done to the SN children.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

HANDCUFFS on an 8 year old girl? For acting like an out-of-control little girl?

If the child had a loaded gun, and pointed it at an adult, I'd say okay, I get it. A knife maybe, or a bomb. But spitting and kicking?

Never mind the cow shirt, or the Aspergers, or any of the rest of it. I wouldn't say that handcuffs are appropriate for ANY 8 year old child for ANY offense against rules, unless there was a serious reason to believe the child was going to badly injure or kill herself or others.

There are better ways to deal with out-of-control little children, no matter what the circumstances.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

You're fortunate that you would have the choice, and the economic resources to find a better situation. Not everybody does. Even homeschooling requires a parent to stay home and do the homeschooling, and that is not an economic reality for many, many American families. Our public schools are supposed to educate all children. If they can't, like so many PPs have said, they are in violation of the law. The CHILD is just a child.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
You're fortunate that you would have the choice, and the economic resources to find a better situation. Not everybody does. Even homeschooling requires a parent to stay home and do the homeschooling, and that is not an economic reality for many, many American families. Our public schools are supposed to educate all children. If they can't, like so many PPs have said, they are in violation of the law. The CHILD is just a child.

Word. Let's not lose sight of the fact that this happened in an extremely small community (less than 700). There may not be many options for this family. And families with SN children shouldn't be required to seek alternative (and expensive) education just because the school doesn't feel like being "inconvenienced" by a SN child.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm picturing this special needs kid excited to wear her favorite sweatshirt to a party. I can totally picture this happening. I don't understand why they couldn't have just empathized. If they'd talked to her nicely about it they might have understood why it was important to her. It just couldn't possibly have been a big enough deal to create such huge trauma. And I am sure the other kids would have understood - my dd is only 6 and would understand a special needs kid wearing a sweatshirt that's special to her that my dd wouldn't be able to wear. I can't see why they had to stick to their guns to the point of handcuffing her and having the police take her away. To traumatize her over such a minor thing.

It's just really sad.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
She was not asked something reasonable, nor was she breaking any rule prior to her being attacked. No, I wouldn't remove an article of clothing just because someone asked me, if I didn't want to. It's not reasonable. Would you be okay if your child were asked to remove a harmless piece of clothing and then was physically attacked for not immediately and dutifully obeying?


Truthfully? My boys would be in a whole world of trouble if the teacher had to ask them to do it more than once. If they thought that it was unfair then they could bring it up with their father or me later.

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

Furthermore, she wasn't asked to remove anything. Just tuck in her tail and pull down her ears.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Truthfully? My boys would be in a whole world of trouble if the teacher had to ask them to do it more than once. If they thought that it was unfair then they could bring it up with their father or me later.

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

Furthermore, she wasn't asked to remove anything. Just tuck in her tail and pull down her ears.

Do your kids have special needs? My daughter would take the sweatshirt off and get over it pretty much immediately, but she doesn't have special needs. It isn't fair to have the same expectations for kids dealing with autism spectrum issues.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
You're fortunate that you would have the choice, and the economic resources to find a better situation. Not everybody does. Even homeschooling requires a parent to stay home and do the homeschooling, and that is not an economic reality for many, many American families. Our public schools are supposed to educate all children. If they can't, like so many PPs have said, they are in violation of the law. The CHILD is just a child.

Public schools have special education, too. Maybe not in her town, but certainly the next town over, you'd think.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Do your kids have special needs? My daughter would take the sweatshirt off and get over it pretty much immediately, but she doesn't have special needs. It isn't fair to have the same expectations for kids dealing with autism spectrum issues.

Nope and I'm pretty grateful for that. But that wasn't the question that I was asked.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Public schools have special education, too. Maybe not in her town, but certainly the next town over, you'd think.

Schools are funded by property taxes. The next town over doesn't have to take on an expensive special needs student from a neighboring town. Plus there's the issue of transportation.

The public schools are there to benefit and educate ALL children. Not just easy-to-educate ones.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

The girl's _local_ school is _required_ to provide education for every child in the district!! BTW, she does go to school in the next town over already. A community with just over 400 people!


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Then her _local_ school isn't doing it's _job_.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Likely, the bolded.


What reasonable instructions? She wasn't wearing anything that violated the posted dress code. If they're allowed to make things up that suit their whims how is that reasonable? How is a parent supposed to make sure their child follows the dress code when the dress code can change based on the teacher's mood that particular day?


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, I'm pretty sure an adult can stand in her way and not be knocked over. My guess is the pinching and spitting started because they restrained her. Not uncommon for children on the autism spectrum. Not uncommon for children not on the spectrum in fact.

What if the teacher is pregnant? I'm a teacher, and I refuse to let my students abuse me.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

I think it's more that you really don't understand what it means to have Asperger's.

http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

http://www.googobits.com/articles/23...w-to-cope.html

http://www.googobits.com/articles/p0...-disorder.html


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
What if the teacher is pregnant? I'm a teacher, and I refuse to let my students abuse me.

I didn't realize that defending yourself from attack is called "abuse." And I prefer to deal with the facts.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.
I find this statement rather horrifying, actually. At the very least, it creates adults who are unable to question authority figures, even when said figures are in the wrong. At the worst...it's a recipe for an abused child.

Clearly, some posters in this thread are unable to comprehend special needs involving the brain and how that can affect people's reactions to things, especially when they're children & haven't learned how to cope yet. Lucky them, wish all of us had that luxury.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Blind obedience is not a value that I teach my children. Especially when the vast majority of crimes against children are perpetrated by a hither-to trusted person.

ETA: I'm too slow of a poster. The short version of my post is "Yeah, that, Devaskyla!"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't teach blind obedience either, but even if I did I can't imagine not understanding if a child with an autism spectrum disorder was having trouble obeying.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Truthfully? My boys would be in a whole world of trouble if the teacher had to ask them to do it more than once. If they thought that it was unfair then they could bring it up with their father or me later.

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

Furthermore, she wasn't asked to remove anything. Just tuck in her tail and pull down her ears.

Have you ever felt panicked? Backed into a corner? Really rigid in your thinking, usually because there's a disconnect between what you see/believe/feel and what the people around you are saying?

It's similar to fight or flight response, where your higher order thinking gets locked and you're only able to process a limited amount of data and you become hyper-focused on one or two things. It's an autonomic response, not within your control.

NT children get to this place sometimes. NT adults can get there in the right circumstances. For kids on the spectrum, they can reach that place about things that don't make sense to those around them or people who aren't familiar with them.

The best way to deal with it is to support the child by thinking ahead where possible, and increasing your flexibility.

How this could have gone:
Call mom in advance and let her know that the assembly has different dress standards, and that the cow hoodie isn't going to work.
Mom and aide or teacher discuss with the child what to expect, and brainstorm alternate ideas if child resists.
Remind child of what to expect. Provide alternate if that's what it takes (ie where new blue shirt, or favourite ___).

If the child is still set on the hoodie, let her wear the freaking hoodie. It just doesn't matter. The child wearing the hoodie is not going to catastrophically effect the order of the universe. And no one would have been struck or handcuffed.

The school could have demonstrated thoughtful, empathetic and meaningful inclusion. The reason schools are given additional funding to support SN children in mainstream environments is to support them meaningfully. SN children aren't supposed to be forced into compliance, but their individual needs and differences acknowledged and met.


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## mommietime (Nov 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnockedUpButtercup* 
Ok, I guess I'm just expressing myself really badly today. My intention was not to imply that neurotypical kids are any better or more valuable than autistic kids. Both of my children are SN - one has a severe personality disorder, one has a mood disorder - and I would react the same way if I felt someone was trying to demean their value or my acceptance of them.

I'm just going to put my tail between my legs and go now!

Don't feel bad, I totally got what you meant by the original comment. You were in defense of this girl's right to need special treatment, and not the right of every other kid to get to do anything that a special needs kid might be entitled to do because of a medical condition.

Not all of us are so reactionary.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Truthfully? My boys would be in a whole world of trouble if the teacher had to ask them to do it more than once. If they thought that it was unfair then they could bring it up with their father or me later.

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

Furthermore, she wasn't asked to remove anything. Just tuck in her tail and pull down her ears.

You can't compare a special needs child to your fully functioning child









It most definately WAS the way you were raised. Had you been raised around special needs people you would understand just how it sounds when you say what you are saying and why so many people are defending the child and her parents against what you are saying.


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## pink gal (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm picturing this special needs kid excited to wear her favorite sweatshirt to a party. I can totally picture this happening. I don't understand why they couldn't have just empathized. If they'd talked to her nicely about it they might have understood why it was important to her. It just couldn't possibly have been a big enough deal to create such huge trauma. And I am sure the other kids would have understood - my dd is only 6 and would understand a special needs kid wearing a sweatshirt that's special to her that my dd wouldn't be able to wear. I can't see why they had to stick to their guns to the point of handcuffing her and having the police take her away. To traumatize her over such a minor thing.

It's just really sad.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

School is supposed to be about learning new things, skills you don't have yet. This little girl, with her special needs, didn't yet have the skills to calmly negotiate with an adult who was making a demand of her that she thought was unreasonable. This _could have turned into a great teaching moment if the adults had used it as a time to work with her on how to negotiate verbally and focused on teaching her skills to help her cope when faced with difficult situations instead of turning it into an overblown power trip that ended up traumatizing her and teaching her that the adults at school who are supposed to help and protect you will do just the opposet!_


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
What if the teacher is pregnant? I'm a teacher, and I refuse to let my students abuse me.

Do you teach special needs? Have you EVER taught special needs?

It isn't about letting them abuse you, it is about weather or not they are allowed to retaliate when abused in this situation.

How often do you lay your hands on your students? If you were to lay your hands on your students would you expect them to defend themselves?

lets get this in perspective here. This CHILD who is AUTISTIC laid a finger on NO ONE until she was attacked, and the attackers left bruises.

Do you do that to your students? If so I don't think you should be teaching. I know I wouldn't allow a teacher to put a finger on my non SN kids.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
You can't compare a special needs child to your fully functioning child









It most definately WAS the way you were raised. Had you been raised around special needs people you would understand just how it sounds when you say what you are saying and why so many people are defending the child and her parents against what you are saying.


Quote:

Would you be okay if your child were asked to remove a harmless piece of clothing and then was physically attacked for not immediately and dutifully obeying?
But that's what I was asked. I didn't bring my kids into it until specifically asked what I would do if it were my child.

And, funny enough, I was raised around several special needs children. I went to a private, suburban, religious school with special education classes, my former best friend has an autistic son, and my neighbor, who's an adult now, is severely delayed.


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## mommietime (Nov 23, 2006)

WOW, this girl is *EIGHT*!
This girl has a condition that causes her to be less adaptable, need extra patient treatment, and be prone to over reacting and not being able to control her emotional responses as would a same-age peer.

How can anyone argue that by acting like an 8 year old with that condition, it was right for two adults to hold her down physically just because she wanted to go to some school function?!

If my child was physically restrained by two adults, I would want them to kick, scream, spit, bite...


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## calebsmommy25 (Aug 23, 2008)

This story is heartbreaking. It is all around a very, very complicated and difficult situation. I don't agree with the over the top action by the teachers. In a perfect world everyone would be treated the same, but this world isn't perfect. She is a special needs little girl, so she does need some special consideration. It isn't to disrespect other children, or treat her 'better' or give her preferential treatment, I think it would prevent some situations like this one. Unfortunately, it makes me second guess public schooling. Not just because of their drastic measures of cuffing her, but in rules that would prevent a child from exploring herself by wearing an animal sweatshirt. I hope they can find a school that understands her better and can provide the education she needs in a loving, nurturing environment. She deserves to be understood and respected.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

This isn't the first time a child has been put in handcuffs because of something ridiculous.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

This makes me so sad for that little girl. My son is special needs (anxiety disorder and ADHD). I cannot imagine how traumatized he would be by being taken away in handcuffs and held apart from anyone he knows. It would be very, very difficult for him to function in a school setting, even a different school, again.

I wasn't there of course, but I do know that many special needs kids find transitions (moving from classroom to assembly) difficult. And also, things like assemblies can be hard because they are outside the routine. And they are full of sensory input (noise, especially). So the little girl may have been even more resistant to change, ie taking off her hoodie, than usual.

Knowing my son, a school could totally work with him to get around this situation, or they could choose to provoke him. Asking him to take the hoodie off ahead of time, or warning him that it would be unacceptable in the assembly would have been helpful. Also they could have accommodated by offering to let the child keep the hoodie but sit in the office rather than going to the assembly. All of that is assuming that the hoodie really did need to come off, which I rather doubt.

I really don't understand the point of view that a special needs child shouldn't receive accommodations like this--the implication being that my kid should be in an institution some place if he can't follow all the rules all the time without any extra help. And I am saddened to find it expressed here. I worry so about how my child will be treated as he gets older and this sort of story and some of the reactions to it just feed into that worry.

Catherine


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
This is a post from the mom of Evelyn:

/kolleen

Link to where that was from? /source

I think it is the teacher that deserves battery charges pressed against them and fired.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
I find this statement rather horrifying, actually. At the very least, it creates adults who are unable to question authority figures, even when said figures are in the wrong. At the worst...it's a recipe for an abused child.

Clearly, some posters in this thread are unable to comprehend special needs involving the brain and how that can affect people's reactions to things, especially when they're children & haven't learned how to cope yet. Lucky them, wish all of us had that luxury.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Blind obedience is not a value that I teach my children. Especially when the vast majority of crimes against children are perpetrated by a hither-to trusted person.

ETA: I'm too slow of a poster. The short version of my post is "Yeah, that, Devaskyla!"


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't teach blind obedience either, but even if I did I can't imagine not understanding if a child with an autism spectrum disorder was having trouble obeying.

Yes, indeed. All of the above.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm not the parent of a SN kid, but this story absolutely made my blood boil for that little girl. I am so surprised that so many people don't seem to get it that this child is legally entitled to an education from the public schools just like every other kid out there. I'm sure her parents pay taxes just like everyone else, so why should they have to send her to private schools or homeschool? The law also requires that she be educated by properly trained instructors who understand how to work with children with additional educational needs like hers. Why are so many people trying to hold her to the same standards as non-SN kids, because she is simply incapable of doing so!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But that's what I was asked. I didn't bring my kids into it until specifically asked what I would do if it were my child.

And, funny enough, I was raised around several special needs children. I went to a private, suburban, religious school with special education classes, my former best friend has an autistic son, and my neighbor, who's an adult now, is severely delayed.

I think the pps may have been asking you to have some empathy and put yourself in the shoes of the parent of children like this SN girl. If her teachers had been properly trained, they would have known to avoid triggering situations, and they would have known how to properly manage her meltdown to avoid escalating it into a physical altercation. Finally, if they were even halfway decent at their jobs, they would have had some understanding and compassion for how the situation unfolded and declined to involve the police.

You know what, even if we were talking about a "regular" kid, there is plenty from the story to indicate that the teachers in question overreacted to the situation at hand. Why the even turned the whole hoody thing into an altercation (with an 8 year old for Pete's sake) is just beyond me.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Link to where that was from? /source

In the comments section of this story:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6640478&page=1

/kolleen


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.

And no teachers may not physically restrain children becuase they don't' want to take off a sweat shirt. Any teacher does that my children have my full permission to spit, kick, bite, or do whatever the hell they can to get free. That is what I would do as an adult. NO ONE has the right to physically hold you down. She was a danger to no one.

BTW, Schools need to have a way to deal with these children. It's federal law. If they can't provide services then THEY MUST PAY to have them provided elsewhere. You don't like it, petition congress.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
I think it is the teacher that deserves battery charges pressed against them and fired.









ASAP!

All could take a lesson from this poor kid! She didn't back down to narrow minded and petty bullies.







to her!


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
And no teachers may not physically restrain children becuase they don't' want to take off a sweat shirt. Any teacher does that my children have my full permission to spit, kick, bite, or do whatever the hell they can to get free. That is what I would do as an adult. NO ONE has the right to physically hold you down. She was a danger to no one.

BTW, Schools need to have a way to deal with these children. It's federal law. If they can't provide services then THEY MUST PAY to have them provided elsewhere. You don't like it, petition congress.


That doesn't even make any sense. Why would someone be restrained for refusing to take off a sweatshirt? She was restrained to keep her from leaving.

Furthermore, they DID have a way to deal with "these children." They called the police when she got out of hand.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Furthermore, they DID have a way to deal with "these children." They called the police when she got out of hand.

I am very frightened for our society if you really mean the things you say.

Calling the police on an 8 year old child for acting out in school is unacceptable. Pressing assault charges against a child is unacceptable, especially when you are the one who assaulted the child in the first place.

Schools need to get their heads out of their asses and worry more about teaching our children rather than enforce rediculous rules.

Did you know at my daughters school all medication must be in the office, EVEN ASTHMA INHALERS! Arbitrary rules are going to kill a child one of these days.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I am very frightened for our society if you really mean the things you say.

Calling the police on an 8 year old child for acting out in school is unacceptable. Pressing assault charges against a child is unacceptable, especially when you are the one who assaulted the child in the first place.

Schools need to get their heads out of their asses and worry more about teaching our children rather than enforce rediculous rules.

Did you know at my daughters school all medication must be in the office, EVEN ASTHMA INHALERS! Arbitrary rules are going to kill a child one of these days.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
What if the teacher is pregnant? I'm a teacher, and I refuse to let my students abuse me.

Um, lets see... you grab a child who's trying to leave, they start to kick and spit and pinch. You stand in front of the door so they can't leave, stopping them without invading their personal space... The second one would likely be safer for a pregnant teacher in this situation.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, lets see... you grab a child who's trying to leave, they start to kick and spit and pinch. You stand in front of the door so they can't leave, stopping them without invading their personal space... The second one would likely be safer for a pregnant teacher in this situation.

Or, you could let the kid go to the stupid assembly with the cow sweat shirt on.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Furthermore, they DID have a way to deal with "these children." They called the police when she got out of hand.

























Wow, please think about how what your wrote here might sound, well, not terribly compassionate.

Special needs children aren't monsters, nor are they subhumans less entitled to respect or compassion. They are children who just need certain additional accomodations when it comes to their environment at home and at school. The school in question utterly failed this little girl in every way imaginable, they violated her rights and her dignity in a manner that was truly unforgivable.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Or, you could let the kid go to the stupid assembly with the cow sweat shirt on.

What a radical idea!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Or, you could let the kid go to the stupid assembly with the cow sweat shirt on.

That would make too much sense... Remember, sense is not to be made.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
That doesn't even make any sense. Why would someone be restrained for refusing to take off a sweatshirt? She was restrained to keep her from leaving.

Furthermore, they DID have a way to deal with "these children." They called the police when she got out of hand.

Yeah, two teachers physically restraining an 8 yo who wants to go to an assembly is not overkill.

It was a power struggle pure and simple. The teachers just wanted to prove "I'm big and strong and can make you do what I want."


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The teachers just wanted to prove "I'm big and strong and can make you do what I want."

...and I'm older and you WILL respect my authoritah!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
...and I'm older and you WILL respect my authoritah!

Dare you to try!!


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 























Wow, please think about how what your wrote here might sound, well, not terribly compassionate.

Special needs children aren't monsters, nor are they subhumans less entitled to respect or compassion. They are children who just need certain additional accommodations when it comes to their environment at home and at school. The school in question utterly failed this little girl in every way imaginable, they violated her rights and her dignity in a manner that was truly unforgivable.

Should she have been dragged to a padded room instead? There was a long thread here not so long ago and everyone made a big stink how awful those rooms are. So forget that the situation could have been avoided,.. what should be done when a child is trying to leave and kicking and spitting instead of calling the cops?

I do not have a SNs child but if I did I would make sure they were in a place with trained teachers I would also know how disciplinary measures would work with my child. SN or not every parent should know how the school works and if your child has a history of acting out[I think she said she didn't know the diagnosis yet, so it was just acting out at this point to her?] I would most definitely know and be on a personal basis with the teachers. It was a bad situation for the ill trained school personnel and for the child who ended up with bruises there has to be a better place for the child. If my DD was special needs it would not be fair to her to put her into this situation.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Apparently, she wasn't trying the leave the building, just leave the classroom, either to attend the assembly, or to go to her designated "cool down" spot (which the girl's mother mentioned in her comment). I just really don't think there was anything to discipline. The girl did nothing wrong and the teachers did everything wrong.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
Should she have been dragged to a padded room instead? There was a long thread here not so long ago and everyone made a big stink how awful those rooms are. So forget that the situation could have been avoided,.. what should be done when a child is trying to leave and kicking and spitting instead of calling the cops?

I do not have a SNs child but if I did I would make sure they were in a place with trained teachers I would also know how disciplinary measures would work with my child. SN or not every parent should know how the school works and if your child has a history of acting out[I think she said she didn't know the diagnosis yet, so it was just acting out at this point to her?] I would most definitely know and be on a personal basis with the teachers. It was a bad situation for the ill trained school personnel and for the child who ended up with bruises there has to be a better place for the child. If my DD was special needs it would not be fair to her to put her into this situation.

Why forget that the situation could have been avoided? It _could_ have been avoided. In many ways.

Mom said, DD has an IEP, which means they at least know she's special needs. No problems had been brought up with mom which means either DD doesn't act out, or the school has been trying to hide the fact that they are having trouble handling the girl. My bet right now would be on the first one.


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Why forget that the situation could have been avoided? It _could_ have been avoided. In many ways.

Mom said, DD has an IEP, which means they at least know she's special needs. No problems had been brought up with mom which means either DD doesn't act out, or the school has been trying to hide the fact that they are having trouble handling the girl. My bet right now would be on the first one.

I guess I meant just in general not specific to this situation,.. When a child is out of control for whatever reason what should immediately happen? Thats what I was trying to say.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I didn't realize that defending yourself from attack is called "abuse." And I prefer to deal with the facts.

If I have to defend myself from an ATTACK then someone is abusing me. What part of that is "not dealing with facts?"


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Do you teach special needs? Have you EVER taught special needs?

It isn't about letting them abuse you, it is about weather or not they are allowed to retaliate when abused in this situation.

How often do you lay your hands on your students? If you were to lay your hands on your students would you expect them to defend themselves?

lets get this in perspective here. This CHILD who is AUTISTIC laid a finger on NO ONE until she was attacked, and the attackers left bruises.

Do you do that to your students? If so I don't think you should be teaching. I know I wouldn't allow a teacher to put a finger on my non SN kids.

Dude, you are not making sense!


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
I guess I meant just in general not specific to this situation,.. When a child is out of control for whatever reason what should immediately happen? Thats what I was trying to say.









That would depend on the child. If the child has special needs, what are those needs? What are the ways outlined in that child's behavioral plan - put together by parents and special ed personnel - that can work for that specific child? What caused the child to get out of control? There is no one answer for every single child. But, the answer isn't to antagonize the child then call the cops on her and lock her up.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
I guess I meant just in general not specific to this situation,.. When a child is out of control for whatever reason what should immediately happen? Thats what I was trying to say.









If the child is out of control to begin with I have no problem with firmly but gently restraining them (you know a bear hug sort of thing).

But that's not even close to what happened. The girl wasn't out of control until they decided to restrain her.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If the child is out of control to begin with I have no problem with firmly but gently restraining them (you know a bear hug sort of thing).

But that's not even close to what happened. The girl wasn't out of control until they decided to restrain her.

I wish I could quote this multiple times...why is it so hard to understand?!


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
And no teachers may not physically restrain children becuase they don't' want to take off a sweat shirt. Any teacher does that my children have my full permission to spit, kick, bite, or do whatever the hell they can to get free. That is what I would do as an adult. *NO ONE has the right to physically hold you down.* She was a danger to no one.

BTW, Schools need to have a way to deal with these children. It's federal law. If they can't provide services then THEY MUST PAY to have them provided elsewhere. You don't like it, petition congress.

Actually, they can. In level 5 schools they have behavior staff and locked timeout rooms. Also the staff are trained in physical take downs like the basket hold. BTW, I have taught SN children in special centers.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wish I could quote this multiple times...why is it so hard to understand?!

I have no clue... I guess no one wants to feel the adults created the situation where they felt the need to call the cops.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
I guess I meant just in general not specific to this situation,.. When a child is out of control for whatever reason what should immediately happen? Thats what I was trying to say.









To me calling the cops is not an immediate solution. They still need to get to the school unless you already have security guards on duty at the school. But I don't consider security guards and police officers to be the same thing. I feel that the school damned well better call me before they even consider calling the cops on my child unless my child has a gun or knife and is threatening to kill somebody. I am pretty much equidistant to the school as the police station is in my city. I just can't think of a situation (or maybe I don't want to think of one) in which it would be acceptable to call the cops on an eight year old child before calling that child's parent or guardian. If we were talking about a fight amongst older kids say in middle or high school then I would certainly feel differently. But this is an eight year old child.

My oldest (5) did start acting out while in school (kicking and screaming). He was brought to the office until he calmed down and I was called. I just can't think of a reason to justify calling the police for a child who is kicking and screaming and yes, even biting or spitting. And I certainly can't think of a reason for the police to handcuff that child and take the child away.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Yeah! The cops had to drive to the school just like mom would! So if you call the cops you are just TRYING TO PROVE SOMETHING. Why not call mom and be done with it?







Someone WANTS to look like a victim.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

It interesting what has happened with society. I threw a chair at my teacher in school once during a rampage. The cops were called, but after my dad, the school councellor, principal, my therapist yadda yadda yadda... They were there more to mediate all the adults then to deal with me. And of course I was throwing heavy object in a classroom full of students... If it weren't for that the cops never would have known.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It interesting what has happened with society. I threw a chair at my teacher in school once during a rampage. The cops were called, but after my dad, the school councellor, principal, my therapist yadda yadda yadda... They were there more to mediate all the adults then to deal with me. And of course I was throwing heavy object in a classroom full of students... If it weren't for that the cops never would have known.

Were you wearing a cow sweatshirt?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
If I have to defend myself from an ATTACK then someone is abusing me. What part of that is "not dealing with facts?"

The part about "what if the teacher were pregnant." Just sayin' that this thread is really long now and some may skim the posts, or not read them at all, and pretty soon we'll have "OMG a girl kicked a pregnant teacher!" responses. Not a biggie, and I am certainly not a moderator and I can't tell you what to do. I just wanted to say that ifs aren't really relevant. That's all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Actually, they can. In level 5 schools they have behavior staff and locked timeout rooms. Also the staff are trained in physical take downs like the basket hold. BTW, I have taught SN children in special centers.

But this isn't a level 5 school. It's a mainstream school with a child with Aspergers, who probably wouldn't qualify for a level 5 school anyway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If the child is out of control to begin with I have no problem with firmly but gently restraining them (you know a bear hug sort of thing).

But that's not even close to what happened. The girl wasn't out of control until they decided to restrain her.

Exactly. The teachers handled the situation badly, it got even more out of control, and now they are trying to place the blame on an 8yo with a cow shirt. Seriously.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

The autism spectrum is a poorly-defined "spectrum" and does not designate a specific illness. Asperger's and autism are two different diagnoses. Talking about the needs of an autistic child when the child in question has been diagnosed with Asperger's is disingenuous. Children with Asperger's have significantly more abilities socially than children with autism.

Quote:

I think it's more that you really don't understand what it means to have Asperger's.

http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

http://www.googobits.com/articles/23...w-to-cope.html

http://www.googobits.com/articles/p0...-disorder.html
Old news to me. Pretty typical. Children with Asperger's grow up to be adults who can be fully functioning in society, a little quirky but generally adjustable, or to be people who use a label as an excuse.

And frankly, while I once again will say that I absolutely do not agree about calling the police (I guess unless a child threatens murder or gross bodily harm and appears to have the means to carry it out? which was definitely not the case here), the excuses that people are making for this little girl in the name of Asperger's makes me ill.

She was wrong to throw a fit. They were wrong and really horrible to call the police. Yes, they should have facilitated better but she does not have to break the rules. And frankly, if one child has to be restrained from breaking the rules, that is not assault. It's just not. The teachers didn't spit on her.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I still don't get why people are persecuting this girl for "throwing a fit." It's just not what happened. She tried to leave and the teachers physically restrained her, AND THEN, AND ONLY THEN, did the girl physically defend herself. I don't see any story that implies that the girl was throwing a fit prior to being physically restrained by the teachers.

She wasn't "restrained from breaking the rules" because SHE WAS BREAKING NO RULES!!


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

She was wrong to throw a fit. They were wrong and really horrible to call the police. Yes, they should have facilitated better but she does not have to break the rules. And frankly, if one child has to be restrained from breaking the rules, that is not assault. It's just not. The teachers didn't spit on her.

What rules did she break again?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I still don't get why people are persecuting this girl for "throwing a fit." It's just not what happened. She tried to leave and the teachers physically restrained her, AND THEN, AND ONLY THEN, did the girl physically defend herself. I don't see any story that implies that the girl was throwing a fit prior to being physically restrained by the teachers.

She wasn't "restrained from breaking the rules" because SHE WAS BREAKING NO RULES!!









:

And if anyone DARED grab hold of my kid over a friggin SWEATSHIRT...god help you.







:

The school/teacher acted first. They are at fault. They are to blame. Period.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
The autism spectrum is a poorly-defined "spectrum" and does not designate a specific illness. Asperger's and autism are two different diagnoses. Talking about the needs of an autistic child when the child in question has been diagnosed with Asperger's is disingenuous. Children with Asperger's have significantly more abilities socially than children with autism.



The fact that children with Asperger's "have significantly more abilities socially than children with [classic] autism" actually serves as a disadvantage in situations like this.

Because these teachers are seeing her everyday managing to function in a way that sometimes resembles an NT child, and because she is likely verbally precocious, and possibly academically gifted (as is true with many, though not all, children with Asperger's syndrome), it can be hard for them to understand that she is NOT an NT child. And while children with Asperger's are certainly capable of "throwing a fit" in the same way as an NT child, they are also capable of having a meltdown in the same way that a non-verbal child with classic autism is. The fact that they were asking her to remove her favorite sweatshirt (or tuck in the tail, which I would imagine could be uncomfortable for a person who has tactile issues, as is frequently the case for those on the autism specturm) for no logical reason and the fact that she reacted viloently when they restrained her lead me to believe it was more "autistic meltdown" than "8 year old pitching a fit."

In any case, I would also be horrified if the girl was neurotypical.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
What if the teacher is pregnant? I'm a teacher, and I refuse to let my students abuse me.

And I'm a teacher and would never use that kind of force or restraint.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kristine233* 
And I'm a teacher and would never use that kind of force or restraint.











Don't grab kids for no reason and generally there won't be problems.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

There may be a rule that children that age may not leave the classroom without the teacher's permission. There may be a rule that they leave together. There may be a rule that they cannot wear those clothes and the teacher asked her to take off the sweatshirt before leaving. Do you really think the teacher just had an issue with the child leaving for the heck of it?

This teacher did not tackle the girl. She physically prevented her from leaving, not by punching, but by holding her. Is that assault? She is responsible for all the kids in her classroom, and she has to manage all of them. She cannot put all of them at risk by leaving to help this girl. If the girl is THAT out of it that she absolutely cannot deal, then her parents need to apply for an aide to help that teacher.

It is NOT fair to ask a teacher to indulge every whim (wearing clothes forbidden by the dress code, leaving the classroom without permission, whatever) of one child and to maintain basic order in the classroom.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
In any case, I would also be horrified if the girl was neurotypical.

I totally agree! In this instance, the SN aspect makes the situation more heinous, but if any adult EVER asked my NT child to remove an innocuous article of clothing I would be beyond livid! And then proceed to attack my child for not obeying? Ooooh, don't make me go there. No adult will EVER ask my daughters to remove their clothing simply because they feel like it. It's just wrong.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

Don't grab kids for no reason
No reason? So she was just sitting there, like everyone else, and the teacher, who just... didn't like her personally? whatever... came up and grabbed her? Come on.

And you know what? Although I'd be livid about the police, I absolutely will help my child to understand and follow dress-codes. I imagine that for some other SN children, having everyone in costumes could be a real distraction. To me, asking children not to wear costumes in school, and not to wear head- or face-obscuring clothing, is not unreasonable in terms of the learning environment and safety. I will absolutely support a teacher by (a) not sending my child to school with the forbidden clothing and (b) helping explain the policy to my child and (c) helping my child design a strategy to deal with that policy if she finds it difficult.

And know what? If that means that I am the one facing the melt-down before we get on the schoolbus that morning, I'm willing to take it.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
There may be a rule that children that age may not leave the classroom without the teacher's permission. There may be a rule that they leave together. There may be a rule that they cannot wear those clothes and the teacher asked her to take off the sweatshirt before leaving. Do you really think the teacher just had an issue with the child leaving for the heck of it?

This teacher did not tackle the girl. She physically prevented her from leaving, not by punching, but by holding her. Is that assault? She is responsible for all the kids in her classroom, and she has to manage all of them. She cannot put all of them at risk by leaving to help this girl. If the girl is THAT out of it that she absolutely cannot deal, then her parents need to apply for an aide to help that teacher.

It is NOT fair to ask a teacher to indulge every whim (wearing clothes forbidden by the dress code, leaving the classroom without permission, whatever) of one child and to maintain basic order in the classroom.

The mother stated that the teacher pressing battery charges on the girl is a special education teacher. Thus, I don't think she was responsible for the whole class. It's entirely possible, give the size of this community, that she was only responsible for this girl, or at best a very few students. The mother also stated that the girl has a special place in the office where she goes to settle down. I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly, I admit) that she is free to go there whenever she feels out of control. The girl was not violating a rule by wearing the shirt, therefore it shouldn't have even gotten to the point where the girl was this worked up.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I'd never make it. I'd quit the first time a kid pinched, kicked, and spat on me and *I* was the one who was so blaringly, obviously wrong. All people should be respected, not just children.

Actually my child has not done those things to any teacher. Thanks. I was refering to the fact that you don't see the need to treat these children differently. This is the exact reason I fight to keep my child in special ed and am having serious questions as to whether the younger one should be mainstreamed when he starts school.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

The girl was not violating a rule by wearing the shirt
Apparently, there was a reason (not in the press?) for her not to wear the sweatshirt to the party. Probably the hood, from what I gather. So she was asked to sit in a separate room to calm down and decide if she wanted to take it off. When she tried to leave the room, the teachers told her not to. She tried to leave, and they physically restrained her from leaving.

So that is called "assault"?

A child should have every impulse met so that she never gets worked up?

Again, this does not justify calling the police, not at all. But I do not agree with those justifying this girls' behavior in the name of Asperger's.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Nope. I didn't say anything of the sort. But if she can't handle a traditional classroom with traditional classroom rules, then how is that fair to her? If everyday things make her have a melt down, then it's obviously detrimental to her mental health and wellbeing to have to deal with them. In addition to being harmful to the mental wellbeing of the children around her to have to witness the melt downs.

But this is far, far away from the topic at hand.

Yes, you have to follow the rules. No, you can't spit on your teacher cause you don't wanna. That's it and that's all.

So i'm gonna keep my kids home to avoid meltdowns. No education, no learning about life outside the house, nothing. Should I keep my son out of his special ed class because he's melted down there? Should my youngest stay out a mainstream classroom even though he is more intelligent than a lot of the other kids there because of his autism? Really I would like my district to have a class for just high functioning autistic kids, but until they do we have to deal with the setting we jointly decide is correct for my kids.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Apparently, there was a reason (not in the press?) for her not to wear the sweatshirt to the party. Probably the hood, from what I gather. So she was asked to sit in a separate room to calm down and decide if she wanted to take it off. When she tried to leave the room, the teachers told her not to. She tried to leave, and they physically restrained her from leaving.

So that is called "assault"?

A child should have every impulse met so that she never gets worked up?

Again, this does not justify calling the police, not at all. But I do not agree with those justifying this girls' behavior in the name of Asperger's.

I must have missed this. Where did it say she was asked to sit in a separate room to calm down? The Original article did not say this.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It wasn't a costume. It was a sweatshirt with a cow theme.

And a child should not be restrained over a really unimportant impulse. No one would be hurt by her wearing that sweatshirt. And the fact that she is special needs means they should have been aware of how she might react, and when they saw her start to react that way they should have known to back off, given that it was just a sweatshirt. It should never have gotten to the point of restraining, or hitting, or spitting. It should have ended way, way before that. Like as soon as she started getting upset over the sweatshirt. "Ok, the sweatshirt isn't a big deal. Go ahead to the party and have fun." It just isn't something worth fighting over.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

you don't see the need to treat these children differently
I think that she was suggesting that a child should not be given a free card to break rules. Dealing with that child's impulses can be done differently, but in this case, it was. The child was given an alternative- sitting alone- and was allowed to keep her sweatshirt on. She wanted it all. But nobody can have that. You can be anti-social and you can be in a social environment, but you can't act on anti-social impulses in a social environment.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

AniT- Not the one posted here- I read it in another article and saw it on TV.

Quote:

It was a sweatshirt with a cow theme.
And a tail and ears, just a step down from my kid's (admittedly pathetic) halloween costume.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
It is NOT fair to ask a teacher to indulge every whim (wearing clothes forbidden by the dress code, leaving the classroom without permission, whatever) of one child and to maintain basic order in the classroom.

The article of clothing in question is not forbidden according to the school's dress policy that was posted earlier in this thread. Do we know that the other children were still in the classroom or had they already gone to the assembly?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think that she was suggesting that a child should not be given a free card to break rules. Dealing with that child's impulses can be done differently, but in this case, it was. The child was given an alternative- sitting alone- and was allowed to keep her sweatshirt on. She wanted it all. But nobody can have that. You can be anti-social and you can be in a social environment, but you can't act on anti-social impulses in a social environment.

How is wearing a sweat shirt anti social impulses? There was no reason to make her take it off. They were on a power trip. There is no way around that. The teaches escalated this by being ridged and uncompromising. They escalated this by now picking their battles. They escalated this by trying to break this child's will. I swear that is the only purpose of schools these days. To break the wills of children so they can better be sheep. BAAAAAA.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

So i'm gonna keep my kids home to avoid meltdowns.
Keeping them in special ed, if they have regular melt-downs, is appropriate. I do think it's really too bad that they do not have more special-ed options for bright children with severe behavioural disorders here, but if melt-downs include violent behavior and can be started by something as small (and unpredictable) as refusing to follow a dress code of no head coverings, then sadly that is your best option.

Of course if you know your child's main issues and what is behind them (e.g. needs certain clothing to cover head) then you can be pro-active and require a special exception from the dress code ahead of time. If you can manage to help your children to learn to deal with melt-downs without hitting and spitting, that will probably really help them in the long-term, too!

Quote:

How is wearing a sweat shirt anti social impulses?
Wearing head-coverings can be anti-social if it's a safety measure regarding gangs or security cameras which is a problem that does exist. If there is a dress code to encourage respect, it is anti-social to insist that you are the only one who breaks it.

Quote:

Do we know that the other children were still in the classroom or had they already gone to the assembly?
They had gone to the assembly.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I don't think anyone is giving the girl a free pass. This could have been a tremendous learning experience for this child. If handled properly, she could have gained a valuable skill that would benefit her for her lifetime. But the teachers ruined it once physical force and handcuffs were brought in. I shudder to think what lesson this girl ended up learning.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It still wasn't a costume. That's sensationalizing the issue. She was wearing a sweatshirt that had a cow theme. Maybe it was a favorite and she was hoping to show it off at the party. Kids with autism spectrum disorders have trouble going quickly from happy and excited (party) to disappointed and sad (take off the sweatshirt or no party!). The sweatshirt was in no way a big deal and could not have been a big deal. Nothing can make any sweatshirt a big enough deal to have a confrontation over, particularly with a child with an autism spectrum disorder.

The teacher chose to have a confrontation over the sweatshirt. That was mistake #1. The teacher then chose to continue the confrontation when the child was responding poorly, and the teacher should have been able to anticipate the reaction since the child had an IEP and the teacher knew about her special needs. That was mistake #2. The the teacher got physical, which probably completely set the girl off. That was a huge mistake and #3. So we have three major problems before the girl really did anything wrong. And no, I'm not going to buy that wearing a sweatshirt with a cow theme is "doing something wrong". It's just too minor an issue.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
AniT- Not the one posted here- I read it in another article and saw it on TV.

And a tail and ears, just a step down from my kid's (admittedly pathetic) halloween costume.


Then please post the link to the article where you read it.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think that she was suggesting that a child should not be given a free card to break rules. Dealing with that child's impulses can be done differently, but in this case, it was. The child was given an alternative- sitting alone- and was allowed to keep her sweatshirt on. She wanted it all. But nobody can have that. You can be anti-social and you can be in a social environment, but you can't act on anti-social impulses in a social environment.


I'm not asking for a free card to break the rules. Apparently you have no idea of the issue we are dealing with. The last time my child was made to make a decision like that from a teacher who didn't know how to deal with him, he peed all over himself he was so upset. I also pulled him from that school.

You know, I love my kids and discussions like these make me happy that i am their mother. I guess people would react differently if they had a full understanding of what they were dealing with. At least I hope so.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
as refusing to follow a dress code of no head coverings, then sadly that is your best option.


Where does it say that no head coverings of any kind are allowed? The only dress code I saw stated that no hats and visors were allowed. It didn't say anything about hoods or other head coverings.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Keeping them in special ed, if they have regular melt-downs, is appropriate. I do think it's really too bad that they do not have more special-ed options for bright children with severe behavioural disorders here, but if melt-downs include violent behavior and can be started by something as small (and unpredictable) as refusing to follow a dress code of no head coverings, then sadly that is your best option.

Of course if you know your child's main issues and what is behind them (e.g. needs certain clothing to cover head) then you can be pro-active and require a special exception from the dress code ahead of time. If you can manage to help your children to learn to deal with melt-downs without hitting and spitting, that will probably really help them in the long-term, too!


You know I was unaware that autism was a behavioral disorder. I believe it's classified as a developmental disability. As for the spitting, my child is not coordinated enough to do that yet(must be the developmental disability) so I don't think we need to teach him to meltdown without that. As for the hitting yeah, we work on that. Of course school would go a lot better if evryone around him learned how to deal with autistic kids rather than just the special ed teacher and the therapists. However, just so you know, my child is described by his teacher as a sweet angel who has minimal behavioral problems so I don't think that is our main problem. My youngest has no behavioral issues whatsoever.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I'm really appalled by the number of comments by posters in this thread who don't know a thing about Autism or Asperger's or special education law and procedure yet feel qualified to comment on what _should_ or _shouldn't_ have happened.

I'm a special education teacher. I work almost exclusively with children with developmental disabilities. It's really too bad that people who don't know about them don't feel the need to take the time to do some basic research.

This was a horrible situation all around, with many preventable actions. The school should have had a behavior plan in place to prevent the escalation from even reaching "calling the principal or parents", let along the police. Many posters here have raised other important points.

I'm really glad to hear that some insensitive posters do not have or teach kids with special needs. Good thing the law doesn't agree with your ideas about how to teach them!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

lets clear a few things up.

1) this was not the girls fault, this was not the moms fault, this was not the mailman's fault. this was the fault of the school and the teacher. the end.

2) it was the schools fault because it is their job (as in required by law) to educate this girl in a way that is appropriate for her special needs. it is not the girls fault for having special needs and it is not the moms fault for not being able to afford to send this girl somewhere else the school doesn't have to deal with her

3) anyone who is going to fight over a flipping cow sweatshirt (or a cow costume for goodness sake) needs to rethink their career path.

4) this girl was hurt by this situation. she reacted in the only way she could (if you can't accept that it is not her fault) the school escalated the situation buy stupidly choosing to fight this battle. they called the cops and had this child handcuffed. do you realize how asinine that is? wth are the cops supposed to do? this kind of thing is the reason why there are special needs teachers!!!!!!

5) yes i have worked with children all over the autism spectrum. this teacher was having a bad day or something because i have no idea why else she would have responded to the situation in the way that she did. none of the teachers i was an aide for would have ever fought this battle. it is 100% the teachers job to diffuse these meltdowns not escalate them.

6) no child wants to have this kind of meltdown. it is physically and emotionally draining. the teacher put this girl in serious emotional danger. that little girl should not have had to ever go through that. she should not have had to pay for the teachers crappy attitude and power trip. since the teacher did escalate the situation the little girl should not have been handcuffed nor physically restrained by anyone not trained to do takedowns safely.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Truthfully? My boys would be in a whole world of trouble if the teacher had to ask them to do it more than once. If they thought that it was unfair then they could bring it up with their father or me later.

I don't know if it's the way that I was raised, or maybe a culture clash, but I'm raising my children to do as they are told by the people to whom I entrust their welfare.

Furthermore, she wasn't asked to remove anything. Just tuck in her tail and pull down her ears.

so would you say the same thing about a kid in a wheelchair who didn't listen when a teacher told him he had to walk to class?

the posts sound like you think she deliberately chose to disobey the teacher. it is so not that simple. you obviously have no real understanding of children with autism spectrum disorders.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Schools are sometimes stupid.

My brother had a teacher try to press sexual harassment charges against him (he was 15) cause he said, "Hey Ms. X, FREE WILLY!" This teacher pressing assault charges against an 8 year old child who was defending herself reminds me of my brother's teacher. She is just trying to make an example of this child. You WILL do as I say or you will pay!

BTW, my brother ended up being suspended for disrespect towards a teacher. When my mom called and said he was spending his suspension cleaning the church grounds they changed it to community service. The teacher was basically laughed out of the principals office and no formal charges were pressed.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Were you wearing a cow sweatshirt?

No I wasn't... Good point.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Honestly, if I felt that my child was simply incapable of following rules and being in a traditional classroom setting, I'd seek out more individualized instruction or special education oppertunities rather than expecting the public school to conform to my one child.

I have nothing to say other than go ahead and judge. One day you'll learn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
But it does say No hats or visors, so I'd guess a hoodie would be in that category if the hood is up. They asked her to put down the ears (hood?) and the tail. I don't see anything in the rules about a tail though.

My question would be- were there other kids allowed to wear hoodies? At my ds's school I see kids all the time wearing hoodies. Not hats, mind you, but hoodies. Was it the hoodie or was it the ears and tail? Either way, this whole thing is insane and never should have happened.

Lord help any "teacher" who lays a hand on my autistic child.

Actually, he has been restrained at school. But it was done WITH RESPECT. And after he calmed down slightly he was offered his body sox (one of the many theraputic tools available to him). The times he's been restrained was because he WAS trying to leave THE BUILDING. He's a runner and doesn't understand he needs to stay in the room. He would run right out the door and into the road without any fear of cars. Restraining him is a last resort that is sometimes needed to keep him safe. The worst time I actually witnessed (from the window of the classroom, where he couldn't see me). And no, I did not intervene because I NEEDED to see how the teachers would handle it. They did good, in my opinion, which I was glad to see.

But in this situation it was over a damn hoodie. Unbelievable. As I said before, my ds wears pajamas to school every day. I dare the school to say anything about it because the first time they do I drop him off in his pj's with a handful of "appropriate clothes" and let THEM deal with it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

My niece is 9.5 and is autistic. Reading this whole thing just breaks my heart. What breaks my heart more is the ignorant comments from people who obviously do not have the first idea about autism. My niece would absolutely go feral if anyone laid a hand on her. You have to ask permission to hug her and when my little ones hug her unsuspected she freaks out and starts to cry. I am just imaging this happening to her and it makes me want to cry. This should never have happened and I hope they win their lawsuit against the school.

P.S. Steph, I noticed the FIANCE in your tagline - Congrats!







:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
My niece is 9.5 and is autistic. Reading this whole thing just breaks my heart. What breaks my heart more is the ignorant comments from people who obviously do not have the first idea about autism. My niece would absolutely go feral if anyone laid a hand on her. You have to ask permission to hug her and when my little ones hug her unsuspected she freaks out and starts to cry. I am just imaging this happening to her and it makes me want to cry. This should never have happened and I hope they win their lawsuit against the school.


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## KateKat (May 23, 2005)

I wonder if there's more to the story that we are not hearing. This quote makes me think there may be, ' "Teachers and the principal wished to pursue charges because they felt there were ongoing problems and this was the only way to resolve it," Lakewold said.' The mother saying that she never signed an IEP in the video interview on the link in the first post also makes me think this (i.e. did she refuse to sign it because she disagreed with the thearpy/plan or was it never presented to her to sign?).

I found the article with the quote at http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=6640478&page=2 .

My nephew had what I think was an autistic boy in his class when he was younger. The child had a para for his "learning disabilities" but received no thearpy for autism because his mother didn't think he needed it. The boy was VERY disruptive, couldn't do the work, and was not liked by the other kids because of this. The school gently suggested that the mother find a new school for him. She wouldn't. As the years went by, the boy's behavior got worse and he fell further behind academically.The school eventually forced the boy to leave because they weren't equipped to deal with him. That school was not a good fit for the boy and the boy was not a good fit for the school because he made the classroom more stressful for the other students. I wonder if a similar situation is going on here...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateKat* 
I wonder if there's more to the story that we are not hearing. This quote makes me think there may be, ' "Teachers and the principal wished to pursue charges because they felt there were ongoing problems and this was the only way to resolve it," Lakewold said.' The mother saying that she never signed an IEP in the video interview on the link in the first post also makes me think this (i.e. did she refuse to sign it because she disagreed with the thearpy/plan or was it never presented to her to sign?).

I found the article with the quote at http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=6640478&page=2 .

My nephew had what I think was an autistic boy in his class when he was younger. The child had a para for his "learning disabilities" but received no thearpy for autism because his mother didn't think he needed it. The boy was VERY disruptive, couldn't do the work, and was not liked by the other kids because of this. The school gently suggested that the mother find a new school for him. She wouldn't. As the years went by, the boy's behavior got worse and he fell further behind academically.The school eventually forced the boy to leave because they weren't equipped to deal with him. That school was not a good fit for the boy and the boy was not a good fit for the school because he made the classroom more stressful for the other students. I wonder if a similar situation is going on here...

The mother said she didn't sign the "safety plan" that included calling the police if things to too out of hand. She never said she didn't sign the IEP, in fact she knew about that.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I don't think anyone is giving the girl a free pass. This could have been a tremendous learning experience for this child. If handled properly, she could have gained a valuable skill that would benefit her for her lifetime. But the teachers ruined it once physical force and handcuffs were brought in. I shudder to think what lesson this girl ended up learning.

I fully agree. I absolutely think that the teaching staff acted inappropriately in many ways. What I do not agree with is the theme in many posts that suggests that she ought to have been let to go to the party with the sweatshirt although, for whatever reason, it was not allowed, just because she has Asperger's.

I also disagree that any form of physical restraint is assault. None of us were there but frankly, anyone can get bruise marks when just being held firmly, if she is trying to get away.

What the teachers are being asked to do by some in this thread is to let the child wear the sweatshirt, leave the room alone, and generally do what she wants because she cannot control any impulse she has, apparently.

This is just not true, not of children who have Asperger's. If she is totally unable to control herself, completely unable to communicate, she needs a new diagnosis.

Quote:

so would you say the same thing about a kid in a wheelchair who didn't listen when a teacher told him he had to walk to class?
This is so, so unfair to people with Asperger's, of whom I am one. To suggest that I physically cannot control myself and cannot learn to control myself and cannot ever learn to cope with disappointment is really insulting to me. Like suggesting that someone who is nearsighted should learn to use braille, or something. Children with Asperger's can, and do, learn to cope with disappointment, listen to instruction, and take their anger out in appropriate ways. They are not paralyzed for life. Anyone who believes they are is doing them a vast disservice.

Quote:

Apparently you have no idea of the issue we are dealing with. The last time my child was made to make a decision like that from a teacher who didn't know how to deal with him, he peed all over himself he was so upset. I also pulled him from that school.
I don't know where your child is "on the spectrum". I am sorry his teacher was rude to him. He is not the first child to pee himself when upset, on or off the spectrum. He is going to need to learn to deal with tough choices in life, rude people, etc. I am not at all suggesting the type of shock therapy this school employed, not at all, BUT if you think that without any sort of prior agreement, your child should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants it, because he has autism, regardless of the needs (sometimes special needs) of others, you are in for a big disappointment. He still has to take his shoes off at the airport, meltdown, peeing, or not.

Surely there is a middle ground where people of SN children can agree that what they need is extra help to deal with everyday challenges, not a teacher who has to give in to their every whim?

Quote:

You know I was unaware that autism was a behavioral disorder.
You don't think there are behavioral disorders associated with autism? It is a general developmental disorder but the problem here is obviously the behavior part.

As for where I got my info, it was this link:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...rld&id=6603633

And again, I am in no way defending what the teachers did, or the IEP, or the policy. What I'm saying is, that once the teacher had instituted this policy for whatever reason, it is not the child's prerogative to break it just because she has a disability.

Also, note that the child was not diagnosed with Asperger's until the age of five or six! So this is clearly NOT an extreme case of an ASD where the child just cannot cope at all (and did not seem so when I saw the child on TV, incidentally another thing that I would not let happen to my child, ugh!).

I was sent for testing for autism at two. TWO. (My mother refused as she didn't want me followed by a diagnosis.) That is how clear it was that I was different. I still managed to follow dress codes, even totally arbitrary ones, at school. Dunno, I guess it was just magic.

Again, touching a child with autism, classic autism, would be different. But that is just not the case here.


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## KateKat (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The mother said she didn't sign the "safety plan" that included calling the police if things to too out of hand. She never said she didn't sign the IEP, in fact she knew about that.

I bet that's protocol for the school, not just for the individual girl. I'm fairly sure that's what the protocol is here. A little slap by a kid probably wouldn't get the cops involved, but hitting & spitting probably would (special needs or not). Several of the larger schools here and the schools within a school (several schools sharing one building) have police officers assigned to them.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

More power to you for learning to handle upsetting situations... But the girl in question is 8. I wouldn't expect a NT 8 year old to have the same level of control as an adult. I wouldn't expect an Autistic 8 year old to have the same level of control as other 8 year old. Simply because control is something that is learned and some learn faster then others. There are so many variations among Autistic people that you can't expect one to have the same skills as another.

Finally, the only reason I can figure that they didn't want her to wear the sweatshirt, was because they just didn't want her wearing it. We've all ready determined that the dress code doesn't specifically prohibit a child from wearing a cow hoodie. My own child would be asking "why" insessantly over such an abritraty, in the moment rule.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateKat* 
I bet that's protocol for the school, not just for the individual girl. I'm fairly sure that's what the protocol is here. A little slap by a kid probably wouldn't get the cops involved, but hitting & spitting probably would (special needs or not). Several of the larger schools here and the schools within a school (several schools sharing one building) have police officers assigned to them.

We have liasson officers here too. But they don't involve themselves in spitting, or kicking, or hitting. They are there for more serious offenses, like that kid who stabbed the prinicpal with scissors, or drugs, or guns, or knives...


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## KateKat (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
We have liasson officers here too. But they don't involve themselves in spitting, or kicking, or hitting. They are there for more serious offenses, like that kid who stabbed the prinicpal with scissors, or drugs, or guns, or knives...

I've heard of elementary school kids here being taken out in handcuffs by the police for severe bitting, hitting, etc. They're not always arrested, but can be handcuffed for their own protection and for those around them, then taken to a psych hospital. Most recent case that I know of involved an 85 pound kindergarten student throwing chairs, kicking, biting, etc. at a principal.

Edited to add: I live in a big city and one very common call the police get involves parents calling 911 when their kids start fighting over the video game system.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

I don't know where your child is "on the spectrum". I am sorry his teacher was rude to him. He is not the first child to pee himself when upset, on or off the spectrum. He is going to need to learn to deal with tough choices in life, rude people, etc. I am not at all suggesting the type of shock therapy this school employed, not at all, BUT if you think that without any sort of prior agreement, your child should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants it, because he has autism, regardless of the needs (sometimes special needs) of others, you are in for a big disappointment. He still has to take his shoes off at the airport, meltdown, peeing, or not.

Surely there is a middle ground where people of SN children can agree that what they need is extra help to deal with everyday challenges, not a teacher who has to give in to their every whim?

You don't think there are behavioral disorders associated with autism? It is a general developmental disorder but the problem here is obviously the behavior part.

As for where I got my info, it was this link:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...rld&id=6603633

And again, I am in no way defending what the teachers did, or the IEP, or the policy. What I'm saying is, that once the teacher had instituted this policy for whatever reason, it is not the child's prerogative to break it just because she has a disability.

Also, note that the child was not diagnosed with Asperger's until the age of five or six! So this is clearly NOT an extreme case of an ASD where the child just cannot cope at all (and did not seem so when I saw the child on TV, incidentally another thing that I would not let happen to my child, ugh!).

I was sent for testing for autism at two. TWO. (My mother refused as she didn't want me followed by a diagnosis.) That is how clear it was that I was different. I still managed to follow dress codes, even totally arbitrary ones, at school. Dunno, I guess it was just magic.

Again, touching a child with autism, classic autism, would be different. But that is just not the case here.


Ok first of all the DSM states that Asperger's is not supposed to be diagnosed until age 6. My youngest most likely has Aspergers but at the age of 3 he was diagnosed with pdd-nos for that very reason. He is to be reevaluated at 6. Many parents are jerked around as to what their child's diagnosis is and whether there is a real issue or the child is just acting out. Both of my kids were pushed aside as having autism by the first school system we worked with. My ped however was the one who saw it and never gave up. Btw, we were pretty sure my ds1 was autistic by the time he was 16 months but I didn't have him formally evauated until 4. I wanted for him to be able to be a kid and not have to deal with a lot of intensive therapy at a very young age. Secondly I will stand by my statement that autism in a developmental disability, not all autistic children have behavioral disorders.

As for where my oldest is on the spectrum, technically he does qualify for a classic autism diagnosis. However his teacher was not "rude " to him. She approached the situation in a very wrong way and that is why he melted down. As for many typical children peeing themselves when they are upset, he was almost 5. There were other issues with her not being able to deal with him properly that we had already spoken about. She could not give him simple clear direction and he failed because of it.

I don't let my child get away with whatever he wants. There aere things he does in public that not everyone approves of but he is not destructive or violent. When he attacked another child at school, I was the first one to push for the teacher to give him a punishment for it. His behavioral incidents at school, while alarming to me, are considered minimal by both his teacher and the director of special ed.

My issue is not letting this child get away with whatever she wants. My issue is the fact that it was handled incorrectly. If the cow sweatshirt was a problem, it should have been taken care of from day one. Autistic children need consistancy. They don't understand how you can have one rule for staying in the room and another for going to the party. They don't understand no cow sweatshirt one day after wearing it before. They certainly don't understand why they have to tuck in the ears and tail(which would probably be uncomfortable). Sure you can teach them, but it has to be done in a clear way. I doubt that it was done that way when the teacher thought it would be ok to physically restrain an agitated autistic child.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateKat* 
I bet that's protocol for the school, not just for the individual girl. I'm fairly sure that's what the protocol is here. A little slap by a kid probably wouldn't get the cops involved, but hitting & spitting probably would (special needs or not). Several of the larger schools here and the schools within a school (several schools sharing one building) have police officers assigned to them.

In my day, and I'm not that old, hitting and spitting got you a detention.

I just...I dunno. Words fail me.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
My own child would be asking "why" insessantly over such an abritraty, in the moment rule.

Well, then she'll likely have a crimminal record in no time.

Thinking and asking why! Kids these days!


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
There may be a rule that children that age may not leave the classroom without the teacher's permission. There may be a rule that they leave together. There may be a rule that they cannot wear those clothes and the teacher asked her to take off the sweatshirt before leaving. Do you really think the teacher just had an issue with the child leaving for the heck of it?

This teacher did not tackle the girl. She physically prevented her from leaving, not by punching, but by holding her. Is that assault? She is responsible for all the kids in her classroom, and she has to manage all of them. She cannot put all of them at risk by leaving to help this girl. If the girl is THAT out of it that she absolutely cannot deal, then her parents need to apply for an aide to help that teacher.

It is NOT fair to ask a teacher to indulge every whim (wearing clothes forbidden by the dress code, leaving the classroom without permission, whatever) of one child and to maintain basic order in the classroom.









:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh yes, it was a "whim" that she didn't want to take her shirt off - a shirt she was ALLOWED TO WEAR ALL DAY PRIOR TO THIS. I guess they enforce rules when they're in the mood.









Maybe she wanted to wear what she chooses and not cater to the WHIMS of an overzealous and paranoid school?


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## calidarling (Jul 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Oh yes, it was a "whim" that she didn't want to take her shirt off - a shirt she was ALLOWED TO WEAR ALL DAY PRIOR TO THIS. I guess they enforce rules when they're in the mood.









Maybe she wanted to wear what she chooses and not cater to the WHIMS of an overzealous and paranoid school?

Thats what I really don't understand about this. It was so avoidable. If there was a problem with the sweatshirt, then why was she allowed to wear it prior to this? It could have been handled when she was dropped off at school by her mother, who would know how to deal with the situation.


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## Danelle78 (Dec 29, 2005)

It's news and threads like these that make me wish this country would sign onto the Convention on the Rights of the Child.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

You know, I"m looking at the weather for Coeur D'Alene, ID. Now granted, it's for this week, not last week when the incident occurred. But the high is supposed to be MINUS 2 degrees F today. MINUS TWO! Even if it was a bit warmer last week it was still pretty dang cold. What if she didn't have a shirt on underneath the hoodie or only had a short sleeve shirt on because the hoodie would have been enough to keep her warm? I'd be even angrier if they told my child to take off a hoodie that she may have been allowed to wear previously or had been allowed to wear to start the day and left her standing there with a t-shirt on in below freezing temps. Yes, I know that the school is heated but I grew up in WI and the schools were never kept warm enough for you to be comfy in a t-shirt when it was that freaking cold out.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeanine123* 
You know, I"m looking at the weather for Coeur D'Alene, ID. Now granted, it's for this week, not last week when the incident occurred. But the high is supposed to be MINUS 2 degrees F today. MINUS TWO! Even if it was a bit warmer last week it was still pretty dang cold. What if she didn't have a shirt on underneath the hoodie or only had a short sleeve shirt on because the hoodie would have been enough to keep her warm? I'd be even angrier if they told my child to take off a hoodie that she may have been allowed to wear previously or had been allowed to wear to start the day and left her standing there with a t-shirt on in below freezing temps. Yes, I know that the school is heated but I grew up in WI and the schools were never kept warm enough for you to be comfy in a t-shirt when it was that freaking cold out.

Here it doesn't even get close to that cold and my son's teacher requested that we take a hoodie to school for him to wear because her class is cold. Since he tends to get cold easily, he wears a hoodie in class most days.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I fully agree. I absolutely think that the teaching staff acted inappropriately in many ways. What I do not agree with is the theme in many posts that suggests that she ought to have been let to go to the party with the sweatshirt although, for whatever reason, it was not allowed, just because she has Asperger's.

I still think she should of been allowed to wear the cow shirt. At the moment when the class is transitioning to a special activity, probably stressful anyway for a SN child, the time to separate her from her favorite shirt has passed. This should have been an ongoing process, communicating with the mother ahead of time, working with the girl for days or weeks in advance. My 5yo is NT and has pretty severe anxiety and transitions and separations are very stressful to her. Separating her from a favorite shirt just ahead of an out-of-routine event would have resulted in a meltdown. And my DD is not SN. I can't imagine how stressful it may have been for this girl.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *williamsmommy2002* 
My issue is not letting this child get away with whatever she wants. My issue is the fact that it was handled incorrectly. If the cow sweatshirt was a problem, it should have been taken care of from day one. Autistic children need consistancy. They don't understand how you can have one rule for staying in the room and another for going to the party. They don't understand no cow sweatshirt one day after wearing it before. They certainly don't understand why they have to tuck in the ears and tail(which would probably be uncomfortable). Sure you can teach them, but it has to be done in a clear way. I doubt that it was done that way when the teacher thought it would be ok to physically restrain an agitated autistic child.

Totally agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
In my day, and I'm not that old, hitting and spitting got you a detention.

I just...I dunno. Words fail me.

I taught 7th grade ten years ago (OMG I'm old!) and a student (not even one of mine) called me a "[email protected] b!tch" and didn't even get detention. When a 7th grade boy and girl were caught in the bathroom together (and afterwards they told me what they did in there, supposing that I was the "cool" young teacher) they didn't receive any discipline whatsoever.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Oh yes, it was a "whim" that she didn't want to take her shirt off - a shirt she was ALLOWED TO WEAR ALL DAY PRIOR TO THIS. I guess they enforce rules when they're in the mood.









Maybe she wanted to wear what she chooses and not cater to the WHIMS of an overzealous and paranoid school?

Absolutely!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calidarling* 
Thats what I really don't understand about this. It was so avoidable. If there was a problem with the sweatshirt, then why was she allowed to wear it prior to this? It could have been handled when she was dropped off at school by her mother, who would know how to deal with the situation.

Of course, I totally agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danelle78* 
It's news and threads like these that make me wish this country would sign onto the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

You know, I was think about this while reading the school's website, about their rules and dress code. Everything addresses how discipline will be meted out, and says nothing about the treatment that students should expect from teachers, or what rights the children have. It saddened me. What should children do to try to appeal a punishment they feel is unfair? What recourse to parents have if they feel that their child is not being treated or cared for properly?


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

I've been following this case on different sites and I'm waiting for the school to issue their side of the story (if they do at all). A few unconnected thoughts...

So far I've seen a lot of people jumping to conclusions that we just don't know yet, so arguing over what "supposedly" happened is moot, IMO

~ We have no idea if the kid wore the hood up in class or not. We can't speculate that it was "okay" one minute and then not the next. There's not enough information as of this moment to know.

~ She was NOT asked to remove the clothing. Stop centering arguments around that. She was asked to put down the ears and tuck in the tail.

~ The girl has a room to go to when she needs to calm down. We have no idea if it was that room in which she was trying to leave or the classroom. We have no idea how the child was restrained when she was about to leave the room.

~ Wearing a hood is a head covering and one is just arguing minute semantics by saying it's not a "visor" or a "hat." We all know the intention of that rule is for head coverings.

While I completely agree that the school acted irresponsibly and the police acted worse (what happened to the days when a police officer would ask what the problem was before carting off a kid?), but I think a small amount of responsibility for the issue goes back to the parent(s).

According to the mom's post here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/comments?type=story&id=6640478
She was not aware of the new IEP. Watching her on interviews and reading her side, she also admits to not being that knowledgeable about Aspergers. If she knew her daughter "dug her heels" in on certain issues, she could of been much more proactive with the school.

According to another mom with SN's in the same school here:
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/...2119675073.txt
This other mom does mention the school can't seem to find a decent special ed teacher YET she also mentions that she's had to help the school with Evelyn in the past. Which begs the question, how involved was the mom with the school?

There seems to be more of the story that we're missing and am not sure if we'll ever find out.

Another interesting post from the url above is a young adult (18) with Asperger's that begs people to treat aspie's the same as NT because he hated being made to feel different with different rules. He wanted the teacher to give him the same rules because then it would of made life easier on him. Interesting take eh?

But one thing we can all agree on, wearing a spruced up hoodie isn't such a terrible thing in the scope of life and the teacher could of handled it better from the get-go.

Personally, I'd love to see schools abolished and replaced with Learning Communities for people of all ages, much like a glorified library, but that's a whole 'nother subject!

/kolleen


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
You know, I was think about this while reading the school's website, about their rules and dress code. Everything addresses how discipline will be meted out, and says nothing about the treatment that students should expect from teachers, or what rights the children have. It saddened me. What should children do to try to appeal a punishment they feel is unfair? What recourse to parents have if they feel that their child is not being treated or cared for properly?

When I went to school, none. I was forced to serve detention for talking. What was my crime? Telling the boy behind me to stop kicking me. I had teachers tell us we were not allowed to wear make up. I had one teacher tell us we were not allowed to carry purses in the 6th grade until my mom told her otherwise. (I mean come on, 6th grade girls need to carry sanitary products, should we just show up with them in our hands.?) All the while the schools backed the teachers. We were told to do as they said or get out.

I was told the same thing with my oldest daughter. The principal told me I needed to learn that there was what DD said, and then there was reality and I needed to face reality. The child was constantly in trouble from K until this conversation in the 1st grade. I was told if I didn't like it I could go elsewhere. I did go elsewhere.. I changed schools the following Monday. She is a sophomore now and hasn't been in trouble at school since.

Some schools don't care about the kids.. they only care about controlling them.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Apparently, there was a reason (not in the press?) for her not to wear the sweatshirt to the party. Probably the hood, from what I gather. So she was asked to sit in a separate room to calm down and decide if she wanted to take it off. When she tried to leave the room, the teachers told her not to. She tried to leave, and they physically restrained her from leaving.

So that is called "assault"?

A child should have every impulse met so that she never gets worked up?

Again, this does not justify calling the police, not at all. But I do not agree with those justifying this girls' behavior in the name of Asperger's.

It is assault by definition. If I were to restrain you because you didn't take your shoes off when entering my house as a guest you would be 'kidnapped' if I restrained you against your will.

Welcome to definitions. It absolutely is assault to touch another human unwanted and unasked for. Depending on the type of assault it can be sexual/battery or even molestation which is not always sexual in nature as defined by the type of assault.

In any case. What gives me the right to restrain you just because you didn't do what I asked?

I have just as much right to restrain you as someone does a child. If it is not for their safety or the safety of others there is ZERO reasons for a teacher or person of authority to place their hands on a child in any manner that is unwelcomed.


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## Danelle78 (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
You know, I was think about this while reading the school's website, about their rules and dress code. Everything addresses how discipline will be meted out, and says nothing about the treatment that students should expect from teachers, or what rights the children have. It saddened me. What should children do to try to appeal a punishment they feel is unfair? What recourse to parents have if they feel that their child is not being treated or cared for properly?

Children do not have courses of action. Nor is the education system designed to produce people who think they have choices. Adults can always go to the school board to try and get some action.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

This is so, so unfair to people with Asperger's, of whom I am one. To suggest that I physically cannot control myself and cannot learn to control myself and cannot ever learn to cope with disappointment is really insulting to me. Like suggesting that someone who is nearsighted should learn to use braille, or something. Children with Asperger's can, and do, learn to cope with disappointment, listen to instruction, and take their anger out in appropriate ways. They are not paralyzed for life. Anyone who believes they are is doing them a vast disservice.


dp has asperger's and there are times when a seemingly benign request is literally impossible for him at that moment. As you may know it is not in anyone's best interest to turn those requests into a power struggle. there is an appropriate way to handle those situations and that is just not it. he is no more capable of responding "appropriately" in that situation then someone who is in a wheel chair can just get up and walk. i have learned that lesson more then once and it does far more harm then good.

i knew that wasn't going to make sense to anyone else. i was trying to think of a better example but it was late. i didn't mean that she could never learn other coping mechanisms. what i meant was that you cannot expect a child with asperger's to be able to use the coping mechanisms they learn all the time. for some reason or another that request on that day at that time was enough to cause this girl to meltdown completely. when that happens I don't think it is reasonable to expect her to just get over it and do what she is told. this is something that isn't really understood by people who have no experience with people on the autism spectrum.

no one would expect someone in a wheel chair (such as a paraplegic) to walk because they are obviously not able to do so. people often expect children on the autism spectrum, especially those with asperger's, to be able to act appropriately all the time because they can do so sometimes or even most of the time. these expectations can be very detrimental to a child who is trying to learn and implement coping mechanisms that are appropriate for specific situations. they need people to work with them to learn self control and that includes diffusing the situation when they have lost self control. exacerbating the situation is detrimental to the learning process and does a huge disservice to the child.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I've been following this case on different sites and I'm waiting for the school to issue their side of the story (if they do at all). A few unconnected thoughts...

So far I've seen a lot of people jumping to conclusions that we just don't know yet, so arguing over what "supposedly" happened is moot, IMO

~ We have no idea if the kid wore the hood up in class or not. We can't speculate that it was "okay" one minute and then not the next. There's not enough information as of this moment to know.

~ She was NOT asked to remove the clothing. Stop centering arguments around that. She was asked to put down the ears and tuck in the tail.

~ The girl has a room to go to when she needs to calm down. We have no idea if it was that room in which she was trying to leave or the classroom. We have no idea how the child was restrained when she was about to leave the room.

~ Wearing a hood is a head covering and one is just arguing minute semantics by saying it's not a "visor" or a "hat." We all know the intention of that rule is for head coverings.

While I completely agree that the school acted irresponsibly and the police acted worse (what happened to the days when a police officer would ask what the problem was before carting off a kid?), but I think a small amount of responsibility for the issue goes back to the parent(s).

According to the mom's post here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/comments?type=story&id=6640478
She was not aware of the new IEP. Watching her on interviews and reading her side, she also admits to not being that knowledgeable about Aspergers. If she knew her daughter "dug her heels" in on certain issues, she could of been much more proactive with the school.

According to another mom with SN's in the same school here:
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/...2119675073.txt
This other mom does mention the school can't seem to find a decent special ed teacher YET she also mentions that she's had to help the school with Evelyn in the past. Which begs the question, how involved was the mom with the school?

There seems to be more of the story that we're missing and am not sure if we'll ever find out.

/kolleen

(I snipped the second half of the post)

You bring up some very, very good points.

My opinion is that they should have contacted the mom 1st. But we really don't know the details, and yes, sometimes details make a huge difference.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
(I snipped the second half of the post)

You bring up some very, very good points.

My opinion is that they should have contacted the mom 1st. But we really don't know the details, and yes, sometimes details make a huge difference.

this is one of the things i really don't get. why in the world wouldn't they contact the mom right away? i thought that the school, the parents, the child (if possible), and an other applicable people were supposed to work out a clear plan of action for these situations. a plan that all parties are informed of and consent to. it seems like some people were neither included in the formation of the plan nor fully informed of the specifics of the plan.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
My opinion is that they should have contacted the mom 1st.

I completely agree! The school did manage to fubar this whole incident. Honestly I don't expect more of an institution like that and am pleasantly surprised when they do get it right.

I can't tell you how many SN kids thrive well in those early years by homeschooling and getting involved in local homeschool groups. Most of them transition quite easily into high school after they have years of a loving, patient atmosphere to develop at their own pace.

ETA: One simple way would of been to put the kid on the phone with the mom before there was any restraining etc. But that makes too much sense, refer to first paragraph.

/kolleen


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Everything addresses how discipline will be meted out, and says nothing about the treatment that students should expect from teachers, or what rights the children have. It saddened me. What should children do to try to appeal a punishment they feel is unfair? What recourse to parents have if they feel that their child is not being treated or cared for properly?









: X 100!

This school is modeling bullying.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"My own child would be asking "why" insessantly over such an abritraty, in the moment rule."

Great. Would your child be able to deal if the teacher said, "Because I said so, that's why?" Or would your child refuse to use either of the options available to him or her? May I suggest that in some cases, when it is not hurting you, it can be useful to learn to be patient and then make an organized complaint with your parents later, even if you are eight?

"the DSM states that Asperger's is not supposed to be diagnosed until age 6."

But there are very real signs early on, which the mother said she was totally unaware of. She was aware of notably un-Asperger's traits- hitting and fighting with siblings- but had no issues before school. Frankly, and I think you know this, most children with Asperger's have a lot of issues that show up before school. I'm not going to say this girl does or does not have a diagnosis, but if her mom is saying that she just had no clue- no tactile sensitivities, head banging, spinning- then we are not dealing with a child who is super touch-sensitive. She would have noticed.

"Autistic children"

She is NOT autistic. She has Asperger's.

"What if she didn't have a shirt on underneath the hoodie or only had a short sleeve shirt on because the hoodie would have been enough to keep her warm?"

First of all, like that would happen. Come on. Second of all, it wasn't that cold when it happened because she was playing outside with just the sweatshirt on in pictures taken by news crews.

"It is assault by definition. If I were to restrain you because you didn't take your shoes off when entering my house as a guest you would be 'kidnapped' if I restrained you against your will."

Er, which dictionary are you using? And I do think you have every room to insist that I take off my shoes or leave, and if I insist on entering, that is breaking and entering, so actually, you are acting in self-defense. You have the right to demand that I do not put you in danger and that I respect your rights. In this case, I am assuming that the teacher needed the girl to stay in the classroom because she cannot be responsible for a child wandering the halls unsupervised, for the child's own safety. That is what I thought of when I first read the article. The fact that so many people here assume it was just an arbitrary decision really worries me.

"he is no more capable of responding "appropriately" in that situation then someone who is in a wheel chair can just get up and walk. i have learned that lesson more then once and it does far more harm then good."

Your DP might disagree and insist on something but if it is something that you need- e.g. to get out of the house- then you have the right to do it, too. Your rights are also important, regardless of his or her special needs. This girl WAS allowed to wear her shirt- inside the classroom. She had an alternative which she must have initially taken. But then she wanted something else. Now, what happened after that makes me as angry as anyone else here. But I still think that the solution is NOT just to let her do what she wants. The solution was to help her calm down in another way, to give more options, to give a better explanation- anything other than continuing to restrain her in distress and certainly not calling the police.

If you are giving into your DP every time he or she digs heels in, you are going to eventually get burned out and you're not doing anybody any favors. If your DP insists that she/he "cannot" deal, well maybe he/she needs counseling to help learn to compromise so that both of your needs are met. I know how it feels to need stuff done and have it not done and the whole routine be messed up and it DOES freak me out but I get over it for the sake of my child. I do explode but I also go into another area where she can't see me freak out, and neither can my DP, because I know I'm being unreasonable and uncompromising and it's not fair to them.

Again- I am not at all suggesting that the school's response was appropriate. What I am saying is that letting this child do what she wanted is not the solution. Society- EVERY society- is full of arbitrary rules and good rules we don't fully understand and we have to learn to deal with them in a civilized way. Doesn't mean don't protest. It means, don't spit on people when you don't get it.


----------



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"My own child would be asking "why" insessantly over such an abritraty, in the moment rule."

Great. Would your child be able to deal if the teacher said, "Because I said so, that's why?" Or would your child refuse to use either of the options available to him or her? May I suggest that in some cases, when it is not hurting you, it can be useful to learn to be patient and then make an organized complaint with your parents later, even if you are eight?

"the DSM states that Asperger's is not supposed to be diagnosed until age 6."

But there are very real signs early on, which the mother said she was totally unaware of. She was aware of notably un-Asperger's traits- hitting and fighting with siblings- but had no issues before school. Frankly, and I think you know this, most children with Asperger's have a lot of issues that show up before school. I'm not going to say this girl does or does not have a diagnosis, but if her mom is saying that she just had no clue- no tactile sensitivities, head banging, spinning- then we are not dealing with a child who is super touch-sensitive. She would have noticed.

"Autistic children"

She is NOT autistic! She has Asperger's!!!

"What if she didn't have a shirt on underneath the hoodie or only had a short sleeve shirt on because the hoodie would have been enough to keep her warm?"

First of all, like that would happen. Come on. Second of all, it wasn't that cold when it happened because she was playing outside with just the sweatshirt on.

"It is assault by definition. If I were to restrain you because you didn't take your shoes off when entering my house as a guest you would be 'kidnapped' if I restrained you against your will."

Er, which dictionary are you using? And I do think you have every room to insist that I take off my shoes or leave, and if I insist on entering, that is breaking and entering, so actually, you are acting in self-defense. You have the right to demand that I do not put you in danger and that I respect your rights. In this case, I am assuming that the teacher needed the girl to stay in the classroom because she cannot be responsible for a child wandering the halls unsupervised, for the child's own safety. That is what I thought of when I first read the article. The fact that so many people here assume it was just an arbitrary decision really worries me.

"he is no more capable of responding "appropriately" in that situation then someone who is in a wheel chair can just get up and walk. i have learned that lesson more then once and it does far more harm then good."

Your DP might disagree and insist on something but if it is something that you need- e.g. to get out of the house- then you have the right to do it, too. Your rights are also important, regardless of his or her special needs. This girl WAS allowed to wear her shirt- inside the classroom. She had an alternative which she must have initially taken. But then she wanted something else. Now, what happened after that makes me as angry as anyone else here. But I still think that the solution is NOT just to let her do what she wants. The solution was to help her calm down in another way, to give more options, to give a better explanation- anything other than continuing to restrain her in distress and certainly not calling the police.

If you are giving into your DP every time he or she digs heels in, you are going to eventually get burned out and you're not doing anybody any favors. If your DP insists that she/he "cannot" deal, well maybe he/she needs counseling to help learn to compromise so that both of your needs are met. I know how it feels to need stuff done and have it not done and the whole routine be messed up and it DOES freak me out but I get over it for the sake of my child. I do explode but I also go into another area where she can't see me freak out, and neither can my DP, because I know I'm being unreasonable and uncompromising and it's not fair to them.

Again- I am not at all suggesting that the school's response was appropriate. What I am saying is that letting this child do what she wanted is not the solution. Society- EVERY society- is full of arbitrary rules and good rules we don't fully understand and we have to learn to deal with them in a civilized way. Doesn't mean don't protest. It means, don't spit on people when you don't get it.

I am going to answer only one question you asked. No one said dictionary definition.

Here is the criminal definition of assault

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/T...50CEB/alpha/A/

A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault. Compare battery.

Here is the legal definition of Battery.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/t...65996C566DDC20

A crime consisting of physical contact that is intended to harm someone. Unintentional harmful contact is not battery, no mater how careless the behavior or how severe the injury. A fist fight is a common battery; being hit by a wild pitch in a baseball game is not.

While it is debatable weather or not it was 'battery' by intent, it is not debatable as to weather or not this is assault. Welcome to legal definitions. Do a google search next time and save yourself the time from typing out the questions. Personally I believe it to be battery. Because the teacher put her hands on this childs persons to the point of leaving bruises. Punishable by law. It was not an accident. An accident would bumping into this child and grabbing her to keep yourself up. The intentions of this grown person was to subdue and restrain. That is assault and battery legally.

There is NEVER a reason short of imminent harm to the child or someone else to lay your hands on them, especially in a school setting where you are the authority. This teacher should be arrested.


----------



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
...
Again- I am not at all suggesting that the school's response was appropriate. What I am saying is that letting this child do what she wanted is not the solution. Society- EVERY society- is full of arbitrary rules and good rules we don't fully understand and we have to learn to deal with them in a civilized way. *Doesn't mean don't protest. It means, don't spit on people when you don't get it.*


I also wanted to key in on this point. She didnt spit on anyone until she was assaulted and battered. That is called self defense.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"Autistic children"

She is NOT autistic. She has Asperger's.


One of the links posted here quotes the mom as saying she has autism. Which is it?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Edna.

Why do you assume that this 8 year old AUTISTIC child has a fully functioning reasoning brain when in one minute you say 'don't make excuses' and in the next minute defend the emergency plan for this child.

If she has a fully functioning reasoning capable brain there would be no need for an 'emergency' plan. These teachers KNOW she has reasoning issues otherwise the PLAN wouldn't exist.

The teachers triggered this by all news accounts. Completely avoidable.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
In my day, and I'm not that old, hitting and spitting got you a detention.

I just...I dunno. Words fail me.

I'm guessing I'm younger then you, and in my day hitting and spitting got you detention too.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"My own child would be asking "why" insessantly over such an abritraty, in the moment rule."

Great. Would your child be able to deal if the teacher said, "Because I said so, that's why?" Or would your child refuse to use either of the options available to him or her? May I suggest that in some cases, when it is not hurting you, it can be useful to learn to be patient and then make an organized complaint with your parents later, even if you are eight?

If the only reason she gets from the teacher is "because I said so," I wouldn't be the one making the complaint. DD would request a pass to the principals office, and make one herself. Heck, she would go without a pass anyway.

We teach our children that "because I said so" is an excuse people give when they have no valid reason behind what they have "said" (read that as ordered).

And yes "because I said so" does hurt her. It implies she's not intelligent enough to think critically and accept a valid reason. And teacher her to just do it now and complain later teaches her to not ask question right away when being asked to do something now.

Sorry for not raising a sheeple.

ETA: For the record. DD teacher and the school in general, agree with me on this. Arbitrary rules for the sake of making rules is frowned upon.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The thing I don't like about expecting a young child to simply accept "because I said so" is that the adult should be the one expected to be an adult. The adult can have a real, valid reason for something if they need something to happen. They don't need to make up rules. But people expect young children to be more mature than that even - they expect young children to understand that the adult might be immature and the young child will have to accept it and go through some chain of command at a later date. Ridiculous.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I'm guessing I'm younger then you, and in my day hitting and spitting got you detention too.

1) Definitely on the little girls side here. This is abhorrent.

2) Having said that, I'm 28 & my dd is 6. Around here when I went to school, and now that dd is in school - hitting or spitting gets a suspension. Actually, any physical contact warrants a detention, but specifically hitting or spitting gets a suspension.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nursemummy* 
1) Definitely on the little girls side here. This is abhorrent.

2) Having said that, I'm 28 & my dd is 6. Around here when I went to school, and now that dd is in school - hitting or spitting gets a suspension. Actually, any physical contact warrants a detention, but specifically hitting or spitting gets a suspension.

24 in June, they stopped with the usual suspensions in most schools around here before I got to high school. They did in school suspesions, but figured a kid who does something wrong shouldn't get sent home.

It's also incredibly hard to get an ISS, even harder to get expelled (the school board has to be involved with that desicion).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm 41. Hitting or spitting would get you a detention, or more likely a suspension, if you were in Jr. High or older when I was in school. An 8-year-old special needs kid though? Probably a call to the parents. Actually any lower elementary child would probably get a call to the parents, and if it were serious and out of nowhere, a visit from the school counselor and maybe a suspension.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
24 in June, they stopped with the usual suspensions in most schools around here before I got to high school. They did in school suspesions, but figured a kid who does something wrong shouldn't get sent home.

It's also incredibly hard to get an ISS, even harder to get expelled (the school board has to be involved with that desicion).

I believe I may be just north of where you are, so this is very interesting to me.

Both my brothers spent much of elementary/highschool suspended. My mother always said it was more punishing to the parent than the kid!









Sorry to be OT.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm 41. Hitting or spitting would get you a detention, or more likely a suspension, if you were in Jr. High or older when I was in school. An 8-year-old special needs kid though? Probably a call to the parents. Actually any lower elementary child would probably get a call to the parents, and if it were serious and out of nowhere, a visit from the school counselor and maybe a suspension.

Absolutely. If you've got two NT seventeen year olds pounding the crap outta eachother, well - I'd say that warrants something a little more serious.

A child with issues to begin with? Uh, how about a little support instead.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If the only reason she gets from the teacher is "because I said so," I wouldn't be the one making the complaint. DD would request a pass to the principals office, and make one herself. Heck, she would go without a pass anyway.

We teach our children that "because I said so" is an excuse people give when they have no valid reason behind what they have "said" (read that as ordered).

And yes "because I said so" does hurt her. It implies she's not intelligent enough to think critically and accept a valid reason. And teacher her to just do it now and complain later teaches her to not ask question right away when being asked to do something now.

Sorry for not raising a sheeple.

I think I love you...







:


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Jr High my cousin spit at me and got on my face/mouth so i pushed him with both arms as hard as i could.

He fell back over a bench and rolled down a hill.

We both got saturday school.

Go in for a few hours and do homework.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I think I love you...







:


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"Autistic children"

She is NOT autistic. She has Asperger's.

Yes she has Asperger's syndrome otherwise known as Asperger's Autism.

Quote:

Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944. In four boys, he identified a pattern of behavior and abilities that he called "autistic psychopathy", meaning autism (self) and psychopathy (personality disease).


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

This brings back a crappy memory. My oldest son did kindergarten and half of 1st grade before I decided to homeschool. One day he came home crying and very upset. The teacher yelled at him and he BEGGED her to call me. She refused and said if he asked for her to call home again he would go see the principal. Which is just what happened. Noone ever called. I took him, fresh off the bus, and we went to see the principal...who promptly told me he was being a baby and they don't reward whining with a "call home so mom can rescue you." I get so pissed remembering that still. How dare anyone restrict my child's access to me?!


















Schools model bullying. I can't say that enough. Not all, but most.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 









Schools model bullying. I can't say that enough. Not all, but most.

Amen to that!


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## Sileree (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
"I still think that the solution is NOT just to let her do what she wants."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
"The solution was to help her calm down in another way, to give more options, to give a better explanation - anything other than continuing to restrain her in distress and certainly not calling the police."









: Thank you! My DP (a fellow Aspie) and I totally agree.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

This whole situation appalls me. My mom has been in education for roughly 40 yrs, 20+ of that spent as a special needs teacher and at least 10 as a principal. She's taught all ends of the spectrum on most disorders out there (last year she went to work at a lvl 5 I guess? facility where the most severe children are taught), and has had more chairs thrown at her than she can count. NOT ONCE in all that time did she EVER leave a bruise on a child - though she could and still can safely and *gently* restrain an out of control child in less than 30 seconds. Considering she was often the only instructor (remember this goes back some years, and she spent some time in a few very rural areas) and was a whopping 5'2" and about 100lbs whereas some of the 6th grade boys were twice that, I think that speaks for itself. In her elementary school there was a team of teachers specifically trained to safely and gently handle children - SN or not- who were out of control. (Her elem school was in an urban at-risk area, and often there would be significant stressors at the home that would spill over for the children.) If a teacher called the office requesting assistance with a child, then that team showed up to remove the child to a safe place where the child could regroup and collect themselves and work through the problem with the teachers or principal. If the child was SN, then any additional considerations were of course met as well. The parents were also notified. I don't recall her ever saying over the course of 30 years that they'd felt it necessary to call the police on a child for a behavioural outburst!

Yes, there were many ways this entire incident could have been avoided. But in the absence of common sense where this incident did occur, there was absolutely positively NO excuse for that child to have a single mark on her after the incident. Any adult trained in such things (and one would most certainly hope a SN teacher who deals with children who may have violent outbursts would be trained) should be able to safely restrain a child while neither inflicting harm on that child nor putting themselves at greater risk for injury from that child in most situations. And if a teacher is able to safely subdue a child experiencing a violent outburst, then again, there is no reason said child cannot be allowed to safely calm down or at least wait for a parent to arrive. At what point in this process is it necessary to call the police on an eight year old child?? There is no logical reason why this should have escalated to that point.

While it's certainly true that a child with SN may be more likely to have an outburst, many NT children may have reacted the same way. NT children have meltdowns, they get upset at what they perceive to be arbitrary rules or rule changes, etc. too. Add in the super excitability of the holiday season and it's almost a guarantee that some child in the school will have a meltdown at least once. Pushing the buttons of a child with Asperger's only ensured who that child would be.







It really makes me wonder if this was more a ploy on the teachers or administrators part to find a way to get the child out of their school.

I have to admit I'm pretty befuddled by the whole thing!

K.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *williamsmommy2002* 
Actually my child has not done those things to any teacher. Thanks. I was refering to the fact that you don't see the need to treat these children differently. This is the exact reason I fight to keep my child in special ed and am having serious questions as to whether the younger one should be mainstreamed when he starts school.

I never said that your kid did anything. Not one thing. What I did say was that I couldn't teach because if a kid pinched, spit on, or hit me, which- judging by these posts alone- is obviously acceptable behavior, I'd quit.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I never said that your kid did anything. Not one thing. What I did say was that I couldn't teach because if a kid pinched, spit on, or hit me, which- judging by these posts alone- is obviously acceptable behavior, I'd quit.

If you were to grab that kid until it bruised them then it is MORE than acceptable. And if you were to grab my kid and leave bruises you wouldnt have to worry about quitting. You would be fired shortly there after. I and every other special ed parent would be heading straight to the school board to be sure of that.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
If you were to grab that kid until it bruised them then it is MORE than acceptable. And if you were to grab my kid and leave bruises you wouldnt have to worry about quitting. You would be fired shortly there after. I and every other special ed parent would be heading straight to the school board to be sure of that.

Either that or I could let them waltz out of the room at their leisure. Because that's okay, too.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

The girl could have decided to start right in wailing on her teachers from the start, but she chose to remove herself from the situation. The teachers apparently lack the self-control of an 8yo and couldn't stop themselves from attacking the girl. Hmmmm....

And we don't know where the girl was intending to go, so assuming that she was walking out into the great wide world is fruitless. It's just as likely (no more, no less) that she was either leaving for her designated cool down spot in the office, or leaving the room with all the other kids to attend the program. We can't assume that she was just going to go wander the halls at her own leisure, or go to the corner store for a soda. Come on.


----------



## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
The girl could have decided to start right in wailing on her teachers from the start, but she chose to remove herself from the situation. The teachers apparently lack the self-control of an 8yo and couldn't stop themselves from attacking the girl. Hmmmm....

And we don't know where the girl was intending to go, so assuming that she was walking out into the great wide world is fruitless. It's just as likely (no more, no less) that she was either leaving for her designated cool down spot in the office, or leaving the room with all the other kids to attend the program. We can't assume that she was just going to go wander the halls at her own leisure, or go to the corner store for a soda. Come on.

Sometimes I really just feel like slamming my head against a wall on this issue. Which is not cool, cause I like you guys.

But...

_*It doesn't matter where she was going. It just. does. not. matter. She's eight. She's at school. She has to follow the rules. She cannot leave the room without permission.*_


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Sometimes I really just feel like slamming my head against a wall on this issue. Which is not cool, cause I like you guys.

But...

_*It doesn't matter where she was going. It just. does. not. matter. She's eight. She's at school. She has to follow the rules. She cannot leave the room without permission.*_

And if you break the rules it is perfectly ok to be bruised by someone 3 times your size.

Our argument isnt that it is ok to go wander the halls. The argument is that physical violence is not ok. EVER.

EVER.

NO EXCUSE.

EVER.

and nothing you say is going to change the argument. I don't care if she was walking to the play ground. You dont hurt that little girl, SN or not.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Furthermore, I find it incredibly hard to believe that an eight year old was attacked by teachers. I do believe that she tried to leave the room so they caught her by the arm or grabbed her in one of those hug hold type things.

But, stupid me, I really do think that a little girl in a school should have to follow the rules and not leave the room without permission. When apparently it doesn't matter becauses rules don't apply to a little girl whom they are trying to teach and she should just do whatever she wants, whenever she wants.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
And if you break the rules it is perfectly ok to be bruised by someone 3 times your size.

Our argument isnt that it is ok to go wander the halls. The argument is that physical violence is not ok. EVER.

EVER.

NO EXCUSE.

EVER.

and nothing you say is going to change the argument. I don't care if she was walking to the play ground. You dont hurt that little girl, SN or not.


Oh FFS, my kid bruises like a peach. He wakes up every morning looking like he went ten rounds with Joe Louis. It doesn't take much.

And I know that I'm not going to change your argument. So I'll change mine. You're right. She should be able to do whatever she wants. If she wanted to bring a real cow into the classroom then the teacher would just have to deal. When she's ready to go, she should just leave. In fact, if the teacher really cared, she'd give her her car keys.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Furthermore, I find it incredibly hard to believe that an eight year old was attacked by teachers. I do believe that she tried to leave the room so they caught her by the arm or grabbed her in one of those hug hold type things.

But, stupid me, I really do think that a little girl in a school should have to follow the rules and not leave the room without permission. When apparently it doesn't matter becauses rules don't apply to a little girl whom they are trying to teach and she should just do whatever she wants, whenever she wants.


My DP is a teacher and she teaches SN when called in to sub for that class. When I showed her the story her eyes went wide. She has said time and again there is ZERO reason to restrain a child so tight they couldn't wiggle their way out of it. Those 'protective' grips are not death grips that leave injuries.

She also ran a child care facility that had over 9 class rooms of kids ranging from infants to 5th grade.

Zero reason to grab so hard it leaves a mark. Ever.

Regardless of what you would like to believe. Bruises were left. That is the fact.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Oh FFS, my kid bruises like a peach. He wakes up every morning looking like he went ten rounds with Joe Louis. It doesn't take much.

And I know that I'm not going to change your argument. So I'll change mine. You're right. She should be able to do whatever she wants. If she wanted to bring a real cow into the classroom then the teacher would just have to deal. When she's ready to go, she should just leave. In fact, if the teacher really cared, she'd give her her car keys.

Yes because that is what everyone is saying. and Cussing really brings your point across well.

No one said that she should be allowed to 'do whatever she wants'

Everyone is saying that what took place was wrong and that teacher should be punished for it. Not the student going to Jail with criminal charges filed against them for retaliating against the violence the teacher put on them.

But you seem to think that it is perfectly ok for a teacher to assault, batter, and bruise a child and then call the cops on the child when it attempts to defend themselves.

So if i were to take your sarcastic tone and change my argument it would go something like this.

"Teachers should be able to abuse children and any time they retaliate the cops should be called and haulled off to juvy to teach them to obey the teachers properly"

See, sarcasm doesn't work well, and cussing doesn't get points across. You seem to think that the defenseless person in this situation is the one to be demonized. Not the fully functioning educated adult who assaulted the defenseless child.

Not saying just saying.


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Can't find where I read the original comments about not believing a teacher would abuse a child....maybe I was hallucinating, but here are a few sources and I can tell you there are many more stories like these...not to mention those unreported.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/local_n...eachersex.html

http://www.tampabay.com/news/educati...icle474588.ece

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=8386801

http://cbs2chicago.com/investigation....2.835842.html


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I never said that your kid did anything. Not one thing. What I did say was that I couldn't teach because if a kid pinched, spit on, or hit me, which- judging by these posts alone- is obviously acceptable behavior, I'd quit.

I don't think pinching, spitting or hitting are acceptable behaviour. From the adults or the child. The first arcticle cited, IIRC, has a quote from the girl indicating something like "making thumb marks on me."

There is no chicken or the egg here. Adults could have started and continued the interaction in a much more productive way. The child started going beyond being defiant (attempting to leave) to aggressive when teachers grabbed her.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If the only reason she gets from the teacher is "because I said so," I wouldn't be the one making the complaint. DD would request a pass to the principals office, and make one herself. Heck, she would go without a pass anyway.

We teach our children that "because I said so" is an excuse people give when they have no valid reason behind what they have "said" (read that as ordered).

And yes "because I said so" does hurt her. It implies she's not intelligent enough to think critically and accept a valid reason. And teacher her to just do it now and complain later teaches her to not ask question right away when being asked to do something now.

Sorry for not raising a sheeple.

ETA: For the record. DD teacher and the school in general, agree with me on this. Arbitrary rules for the sake of making rules is frowned upon.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I think I love you...







:

Yeah, me too!


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Furthermore, I find it incredibly hard to believe that an eight year old was attacked by teachers.

There it is....


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Furthermore, I find it incredibly hard to believe that an eight year old was attacked by teachers. I do believe that she tried to leave the room so *they caught her by the arm or grabbed her in one of those hug hold type things.*
But, stupid me, I really do think that a little girl in a school should have to follow the rules and not leave the room without permission. When apparently it doesn't matter becauses rules don't apply to a little girl whom they are trying to teach and she should just do whatever she wants, whenever she wants.

This should never be hard enough to cause BRUISING on even the most sensitive children. Period. And yes, it's very possible to restrain a child in that manner without causing a single mark. No matter how you spin it, the teachers were in the wrong if they grabbed the child hard enough to leave evidence. They are the adults and have the training and responsibility to act accordingly. As for finding it hard to believe an 8 yr old was attacked by teachers, why is that so difficult? Many states still allow corporal punishment and once in a while a story leaks out about a teacher who took it too far, or who molested a child, etc. Teachers are human, and most are decent people, a few outstanding and a few are rotten apples.

I think what you don't seem to be getting from many of the posts is that no one expects a SN child to be above the rules. Really, they don't. However, when dealing with a child with SN, one simply has to realize that certain accomodations must be made to allow the SN student to function and flourish. Just as you wouldn't enforce a "walk up the stairs" rule with a child in a wheelchair, generally you don't make sudden rule or routine changes for a child with a form of autism. Had they started the day telling this child what the rules would be for the assembly and reminding her regularly (assuming here that they didn't), this while event could have been avoided. That's not exempting her from the rules (though I still haven't seen where she violated them, but I'll go along with it for the sake of discussion), but rather working with her condition to allow her to process the information and choose how to react.

K.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

A vicious attack that leaves "thumb marks"?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?

Just wondering if you are able to come up with a way to stop a child from leaving a space without physically restraining them.

It seems you are not even willing to try to imagine a different scenario, so I am not sure anything I say would even strike a cord with you.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?

Even though I'm siding with the little girl on this one - those of you with experience, what should have been the proper course of action (obviously it shouldn't have been allowed to escalate - but once it did) should the teachers have taken?

I've worked with NT preschoolers in a daycare setting and I had to pick up and hold, or 'hug hold' a few who were seriously tantruming (only when they were going after other kids, or hurting themselves) and sometimes it did take a bit of well, grip - but never so hard that it would have left marks. I do think that it's okay to acknowledge that sometimes you may have to hold a child to prevent them from leaving an area, or from hurting themselves (of course, this is as a last resort - moving them to a safe area, or moving the other child could also be an action to take...)


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?

I think the teachers should have had knowledge and understanding of the kid sufficient to avoid the issue in the first place.

Places that do well with SN kids get that it's the planning. DS used to have meltdowns at preschool. A specialist came in to observe, and looked for what happened right before he lost it. Once we collectively understood what was happening for DS, we easily integrated being mindful of his triggers AND worked on his coping skills. Over time, he coped better and was more successful, requiring less accomodation.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?

Thanks for finally asking.

Nope.

Simple recourse is to stand in front of the door, if that is not an option then the second recourse is to send them to their 'time out' area in the office with their hoodie on.

I was not in the class room, no one here was, but grabbing the child was not an option unless they were hitting someone or a danger to themselves. And walking through a door is not a danger to themselves.

And as an adult, and I'd hope fully functioning thinker as a teacher, being able to recognize a situation with someone you have been teaching all year and reacting appropriately instead of instigating the situation.

The easiest way to diffuse a situation with an autistic kid who has enough where-with-all to communicate and understand things is to make them believe it is there idea.

If you can't get them to put the hoodie down and they are adamant give them an option. 'Would you like to leave the hoodie in class or take the hoodie with you with the hat down?' if that doesn't work? It is just a hoodie. One that you have let her wear all day in class.

She is autistic. They are prone to sticking to schedules and routines.

If you arbitrarily change it, they have a problem and you need to work around it and pick your battles.

If I was there? Because you are asking me what I would do? I never would have told her to take it off she is loved it and it helped her have a good day more power too her. She is 8, you can't compare her to an adult with aspergers, she isnt fully developped.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
A vicious attack that leaves "thumb marks"?

In the eyes of my 6 yr old son who's on the sensitive side, if a teacher grabbed him hard enough to leave marks it would not only be a "vicious attack" in his eyes, but would be the source of nightmares and night terrors for several weeks. My 4 yr old dramatic DD would be sure everyone knew about it for at least a month and cry over it regularly. It's all about perception. While it may not seem significant to you from the adult perspective, it could be very traumatizing for a small child who is unable to defend themselves from someone three times their size.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Thanks for finally asking.

Nope.

Simple recourse is to stand in front of the door, if that is not an option then the second recourse is to send them to their 'time out' area in the office with their hoodie on.

I was not in the class room, no one here was, but grabbing the child was not an option unless they were hitting someone or a danger to themselves. And walking through a door is not a danger to themselves.

And as an adult, and I'd hope fully functioning thinker as a teacher, being able to recognize a situation with someone you have been teaching all year and reacting appropriately instead of instigating the situation.

The easiest way to diffuse a situation with an autistic kid who has enough where-with-all to communicate and understand things is to make them believe it is there idea.

If you can't get them to put the hoodie down and they are adamant give them an option. 'Would you like to leave the hoodie in class or take the hoodie with you with the hat down?' if that doesn't work? It is just a hoodie. One that you have let her wear all day in class.

She is autistic. They are prone to sticking to schedules and routines.

If you arbitrarily change it, they have a problem and you need to work around it and pick your battles.

If I was there? Because you are asking me what I would do? I never would have told her to take it off she is loved it and it helped her have a good day more power too her. She is 8, you can't compare her to an adult with aspergers, she isnt fully developped.

I agree with all this and I do wonder what the major issue with her walking out the classroom door would have been....a teacher could have followed her and diffuse the situation in that manner.

It really seemed to be more of a battle of wills with the teacher deciding they were going to win at any cost.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I apologize for using the letter F.

One question. Just one, and I'm done. When the girl tried to leave the room, do you think that the teacher should've just let her walk out because she wanted to?

For me, it depends. There are several different scenarios, and we don't know what exactly happened. Did the teacher just dismiss the class and everyone was leaving the classroom? Did the teacher just then ask the girl to remove her shirt, which the girl found upsetting, and proceeded to leave the classroom with the rest of the kids? Then yeah, I'd let her go. And we'd talk about it later when everyone is calmer.

But even if the scenario were quite different, I would have barred her way while using calming and reassuring speech and tried to diffuse the situation. I would not, under any circumstances, do anything with enough force to leave marks. Never not ever never ever.

But what to I know. I don't require my kids to request permission to use the bathroom or blow their noses or sneeze, so maybe I'm way out of line.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Thanks for finally asking.

Nope.

Simple recourse is to stand in front of the door, if that is not an option then the second recourse is to send them to their 'time out' area in the office with their hoodie on.

I was not in the class room, no one here was, but grabbing the child was not an option unless they were hitting someone or a danger to themselves. And walking through a door is not a danger to themselves.

And as an adult, and I'd hope fully functioning thinker as a teacher, being able to recognize a situation with someone you have been teaching all year and reacting appropriately instead of instigating the situation.

The easiest way to diffuse a situation with an autistic kid who has enough where-with-all to communicate and understand things is to make them believe it is there idea.

If you can't get them to put the hoodie down and they are adamant give them an option. 'Would you like to leave the hoodie in class or take the hoodie with you with the hat down?' if that doesn't work? It is just a hoodie. One that you have let her wear all day in class.

She is autistic. They are prone to sticking to schedules and routines.

If you arbitrarily change it, they have a problem and you need to work around it and pick your battles.

If I was there? Because you are asking me what I would do? I never would have told her to take it off she is loved it and it helped her have a good day more power too her. She is 8, you can't compare her to an adult with aspergers, she isnt fully developped.

Somehow I missed your post. I could have just said "Yeah, that."


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Somehow I missed your post. *I could have just said "Yeah, that.*"

Bold mine.

Story of my existence on MDC....for the most part anyway.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Bold mine.

Story of my existence on MDC....for the most part anyway.

I always love creating a post and then realizing that someone said it much much better and more eloquently just ahead of me.







It happens to me a lot!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I always love creating a post and then realizing that someone said it much much better and more eloquently just ahead of me.







It happens to me a lot!

You so can't let Yoshua think he is an eloquent poster...it will totally go to his head and then I will never hear the end of it.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
I never would have told her to take it off she is loved it and it helped her have a good day more power too her.









All this debate when the solution is as simple as the above.


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## granolamom (Sep 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
An 8 year old child.
She wasn't shooting people. She wasn't stabbing anyone. She wasn't even dealing drugs.
She was having an Aspie meltdown.
And people here are actually defending the decision to handcuff her!
An 8 year old child.
Any 8 year old child shouldn't have to be concerned with being carted off, handcuffed by the police.
But, an 8 year old child with Asperger's. An 8 year old child who is known to not have the kind of control over her emotions and behaviors that neurotypical 8 year olds might have. An 8 year old child with special needs.
Special needs isn't just a phrase. It means something. She has special needs. She needs is for the people who regularly interact with her to understand who she is. To understand what buttons not to push. To understand that she experiences the world differently than many of her peers. She needs for authority figures, such as parents and teachers, to interact with her in ways that will help her get through her day with as few meltdowns as possible. And she needs for those same people to be prepared to help her work through those difficult situations and meltdowns with respect and care.
An 8 year old child.
I don't think it's asking too much.
I'm sorry that some people don't think she's worth the extra time and consideration.
I'm very sorry that my children have to live in a world where it's considered acceptable to arrest them for who they are.
While the bullies, the taunters, the school personnel who antagonize are... applauded?

:

thumb


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## KateKat (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I'm guessing I'm younger then you, and in my day hitting and spitting got you detention too.

In my day kids didn't hit or spit on the teacher. They hit and spit at each other.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateKat* 
In my day kids didn't hit or spit on the teacher. They hit and spit at each other.

So... Should I apologize for the fact that every generation of kids except your weren't/aren't perfect or something?

I highly doubt that no child in your time ever retaliated against a teacher. My guess is you just never heard about it because they were hauled off in handcuffs.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Simple recourse is to stand in front of the door, if that is not an option then the second recourse is to send them to their 'time out' area in the office with their hoodie on.

I agree that this is the most passive and smartest way to handle the situation. But we still don't know if the incident happened in the classroom or in her quiet room in the office.

Quote:

And walking through a door is not a danger to themselves.
I agree that it's pretty clear the escalation was due to the power struggle of an adult whose ego won over their maturity and senses, but I still wouldn't want them to have let a child leave without a chaperone. yk?

Quote:

It is just a hoodie. One that you have let her wear all day in class.
Yeah, it is just a hoodie and everyone in this entire thread seems to agree that it's a stupid rule. But we don't know if she had it on in class all day. That information isn't in the news and hence not part of the equation. Do you have a source that proves otherwise? It could of been in the cloak room, she could of had the hood down, it could of been on the back of her seat. We just don't know which scenario was playing.

If I ventured a complete guess, it would be that the kid knew hoods are not allowed in the classroom and didn't have it on, but expected it wouldn't be a problem at the party (which is extremely logical in a kid's head). The teacher saw it and reacted, and kept reacting until she overreacted.

Quote:

I never would have told her to take it off she is loved it and it helped her have a good day more power too her. She is 8, you can't compare her to an adult with aspergers, she isnt fully developped.
I completely agree. I just don't expect an institution like a school to always take the high road. There is a minute onus on the parent to make sure there is daily conversation and create a good rapport with your child's caretakers no matter how painstakingly head-banging it may be.

The gov't might be responsible for a FAPE and extra care under IDEA, but I don't trust they'll do it right.

The kid is the innocent one in all of this, poor thing. I hope she goes to court and learns now how to advocate for herself, she'll be having to do that the rest of her life.

/kolleen
who thinks we should all send the school cow cards with ears and tails telling them to get over themselves.

ETA: or show our support for that little girl and send her a cow card via a local newspaper.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"If the only reason she gets from the teacher is "because I said so," I wouldn't be the one making the complaint. DD would request a pass to the principals office, and make one herself. Heck, she would go without a pass anyway.

We teach our children that "because I said so" is an excuse people give when they have no valid reason behind what they have "said" (read that as ordered)."

You are teaching them something false, then, because sometimes, people don't feel like talking to you. Sometimes, there is a good reason for something but no time to explain. Like when you get a call from the sheriff that you have to evacuate for fires, and he has to call 15 other people before he goes to evacuate the elderly. You can tell the sheriff what you want but you could also accept that sometimes, just sometimes, people in authority do have your best interests at heart, but cannot explain to you exactly why they are asking you for something.

Great that you're teaching your child to go to the halls without a pass. Did it occur to you that safety issues might be behind the whole "pass" idea?

"And yes "because I said so" does hurt her."

Seriously? That hurts her feelings? I can only hope that she grows up to be, um, actually, I cannot imagine what kind of job she is going to be able to cope with in the future with the attitude that she's entitled to a full explanation for everything, every time. I think you are exaggerating her sensitivity. She might be annoyed, but hurt?

"Why do you assume that this 8 year old AUTISTIC child has a fully functioning reasoning brain when in one minute you say 'don't make excuses' and in the next minute defend the emergency plan for this child."

1. I will not accept that Asperger's and autism are the same diagnosis. They might be in the same general category but they are different and quite clearly different. This child had no verbal regression as a toddler. She can make eye-contact with a camera quite well, I noticed.

2. NOWHERE did I defend her emergency plan, at least not the one that existed. It was a stupid plan and ought to be illegal to call the cops on a child unless that child is literally threatening life and limb (bomb threat, gun, etc.), which was obviously not the case here.

"Bruises were left. That is the fact."

No it was not. The child reported marks, but there was no statement from either side about bruises. Marks are not permanent. However I must agree that *anyway* finger-marks should never be present- as PPs have said, there are ways to physically control an SN child without using fingers or force, for the good of that child, if necessary, though it generally isn't.

"Yes she has Asperger's syndrome otherwise known as Asperger's Autism.

Quote:
Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944. In four boys, he identified a pattern of behavior and abilities that he called "autistic psychopathy", meaning autism (self) and psychopathy (personality disease)."

That is the original description but not the working definition used in present textbooks. There are very, very specific and noticeable differences between autistics and Asperger's "sufferers".

I personally disagree with the description "on the spectrum" and the conflation of Asperger's with autism. It really irks me. This is because classic autism is quite severe, even when not associated with mental retardation, and requires in-depth treatment for years and years even in the best case scenario, whereas people with Asperger's often grow to adulthood without being diagnosed and do, if not normal, then at least fine and well. Depression is as common as among the general population but any child with Asperger's as her only diagnosis can FULLY expect to grow up to finish college and get a good , even without much intervention. There is no reason she should not, unless, ahem, her parents use her diagnosis as an excuse for not helping her to learn how the world works and just chalk up her difficulties to her "disability" and give her an excuse to fail. WHEREAS, children with autism have a verbal disability as well as generally extreme tendencies to stimulate so that they harm themselves, that require in almost every case concerted and long-term intervention.

Conflating these diagnoses is no good for autistics ("Well Susie's girl is autistic and she didn't need special ed, so why should these autistics get it?") and no good for Aspies ("Isn't that autistic? He won't like start humming to himself in the middle of the presentation, will he?").

So let us speak about Asperger's and not pretend they are the same thing. They are no more the same than bipolar is the same as depressed. Related, absolutely, on a spectrum, definitely, but NOT the same thing.

Quote:

tries to physically harm another
But you have no idea whether the teacher was trying to physically harm the child. You are making that assumption. We know that the girl says she was harmed- but we do not know the teacher's intent.

"She is 8, you can't compare her to an adult with aspergers, she isnt fully developped."

Right, which is why I write that the response to spitting and hitting is not to call the police in any case, but that she does need to learn to follow rules. How is she going to grow to be a developed adult with a capacity to realize her talents in the workforce, either independently or as an employee, if she does not learn how to deal with how her impulses affect others?

Again, just to repeat myself because I would not want to give anyone who only reads this page the wrong idea, I do not believe that the school was justified in any way except that they did maintain the dress code requirement. I can only guess that it had to do with costumes because otherwise the ears and tail tucking request does not make sense. A stupid rule? Perhaps- unless you have other SN kids who are deeply disturbed by, say, Spiderman costumes, in which case you have a slippery slope type issue.

Incidentally, a lot of rules that seem idiotic have to do with slippery slopes and I would encourage parents of Aspies to consider explaining that to their children. Makes life about six gazillion times easier.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

In my day kids didn't hit or spit on the teacher. They hit and spit at each other.
:roflmao


----------



## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

OMG

I can't believe there is even debate going on over this. An eight year old girl was held down? For not taking a shirt off and for trying to leave the scene?

An eight year old girl was HANDCUFFED by POLICE OFFICERS?

An eight year old girl was not returned to her MOM when her MOM showed up at the scene?

And to top it off, the eight year old girl has a disability, a pre-existing condition that the school knew about?

OMG OMG OMG

HOW SICK. I am picturing my 7yo and 9yo sisters being asked to alter their clothing (mistaking it for a request to strip perhaps??) I am picturing them excited, at school, surrounded by other kids and adults. Eager to go to a party. Being told to do something by someone. They say no, or they run off. And then the ADULT TOUCHES THEM. HOLDS THEM DOWN. IT HURTS. DUH. How can an adult HOLD DOWN a child without the child feeling

SCARED
HURT
EMBARRASSED
CONFUSED
TRAPPED

I am heartbroken for that little girl. If I were the parent, I would do everything possible to have those involved fired and prosecuted for assault, abuse, everything.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reece19* 
You don't get a special pass to kick, hit and spit on anyone because you have any type of special need. If calling the police is the school protocol when a child spits on a teacher, then they need to do it when any child spits on a teacher.

Every school I have worked at has had that particular spitting rule. Once bodily fluids are involved, consequences are swift.

Now, they probably could have handled the escalation a little better. Preventing the child from becoming that upset would be the best plan, of course. Hopefully it goes better next time.


Those teachers need to remember that Special Needs kids are kids with _special needs_. And because their needs are different and special, the same cookie cutter rules cannot be applied.

Kids on the autism spectrum often tantrum over things that seem insignificant to you or me, they may bite or spit if you are keeping them from a desired activity, and anyone who is a Special Education teacher should know this. Shame on that school!







:

And about it being acceptable to call police!??!! As a Speech Pathology assistant working primarily with children with Autism, I've had my glasses knocked off, been kicked in the nose, pinched, scratched and bitten, and it's a learning curve figuring out what makes each child sad or happy, or annoyed... and I never repeat the same mistake twice. I do see it it as MY fault because something I did caused this child with special needs to communicate "No" the only way he or she knew how.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
You are teaching them something false, then, because sometimes, people don't feel like talking to you. Sometimes, there is a good reason for something but no time to explain. Like when you get a call from the sheriff that you have to evacuate for fires, and he has to call 15 other people before he goes to evacuate the elderly. You can tell the sheriff what you want but you could also accept that sometimes, just sometimes, people in authority do have your best interests at heart, but cannot explain to you exactly why they are asking you for something.

This was NOT an emergency. And if you don't "feel" like talking to kids, don't be a teacher.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27* 
And about it being acceptable to call police!??!! As a Speech Pathology assistant working primarily with children with Autism, I've had my glasses knocked off, been kicked in the nose, pinched, scratched and bitten, and it's a learning curve figuring out what makes each child sad or happy, or annoyed... and I never repeat the same mistake twice. I do see it it as MY fault because something I did caused this child with special needs to communicate "No" the only way he or she knew how.

Wow - well, I feel compelled to thank you for both your reasonableness and your ability to help these children while at the same time displaying calmness.

I always just assumed the goal was to HELP, not "be right." I guess some are just different.









It's about helping kids, special needs kids to boot, be the best they can be - while fostering their trust in the world and the adults in their life. Not. Control.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
[snip]I can't believe there is even debate going on over this. An eight year old girl was held down? For not taking a shirt off and for trying to leave the scene?

[snip]
(mistaking it for a request to strip perhaps??)

I can't believe this false assumption is still being bandied about. She was NOT asked to remove her clothing. She was asked to tuck the ears back and the tail in.

/kolleen


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I can't believe this false assumption is still being bandied about. She was NOT asked to remove her clothing. She was asked to tuck the ears back and the tail in.

/kolleen

It amounts to the same thing. An autistic child was asked to remove something for in their minds no good reason. I don't care if you keep throwing 'false assumption' around. It amounts to the same thing.

She was Triggered
She was Attacked
And then she was arrested for defending herself.

Who cares about the semantics?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
It amounts to the same thing. An autistic child was asked to remove something for in their minds no good reason. I don't care if you keep throwing 'false assumption' around. It amounts to the same thing.

She was Triggered
She was Attacked
And then she was arrested for defending herself.

Who cares about the semantics?

Totally agree!


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## fhqwhgads (Oct 30, 2007)

I empathize with this girl. At 8 years old, if someone had restrained me because I had tried to leave a situation non-violently, you can bet I would kick, spit, and scream.

It was a ridiculous request and I'm sure this girl is keen enough to know it. The tail and the ears weren't hurting anyone. To start a confrontation over it is ridiculous. That's strike one.

They asked her to sit in another room until she had calmed down. From the stories, it appears she did exactly that. And when she was calm, she attempted to leave. I have not read anywhere that they asked her where she was going - if it was to the party, to call her mom, to the principal's office, or just "outside". To prevent her from leaving the room, they physically restrain her - NO. That's putting it too kindly. They PINNED DOWN an 8 year old girl. To the point that it left bruises. Strike two.

Then, TO THEIR FREAKING SURPRISE, she starts kicking, screaming and spitting. Well no duh. I would too, no matter what age I was. Instead of realizing THEY were the ones continuously escalating the situation, they blame the little girl and call the police because she is defending herself. They terrify and traumatize this little girl - what? To prove a point? To show that they are bigger and more powerful? To make an example out of her? They haul a child off in handcuffs and press charges. Strike three. You are out.

If there is anyone, anyone at all who thinks this is okay, put yourself in her shoes. You are asked to comply to a ridiculous request in a public place where all people of the community have the right to be. Let's say, you're asked to stop NIP and go somewhere else. You say no. You get irate. They ask you not to make a scene over it, let's go over here where it's private so you can calm down. So you go. You are calm. You attempt to leave because you are calm, but you're still NIP. Instead of allowing you to leave, the authority in question knocks you down and pins your arms to the ground. You kick and scream because it feels like you're being assaulted. It hurts. They're hurting you over something you've done that wasn't hurting anyone. Then, to your horror, in front of your child(ren), they call the police, arrest you, haul you off to jail, and press charges for assault. You are labeled a criminal and forced to go through the justice system.

Now imagine you're 8 years old, everyone in the situation is bigger than you, and the more upset you become, the less capable you are of reigning in your responses, to the point where it is impossible to control your feelings or reactions.

The only thing this will teach this girl is that it's okay for adults to treat her like crap, because they're bigger, meaner, and the cops will take their side. Way to build trust and confidence.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fhqwhgads* 
The only thing this will teach this girl is that it's okay for adults to treat her like crap, because they're bigger, meaner, and the cops will take their side. Way to build trust and confidence.

And that, sadly, is the point right there.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I can't believe this false assumption is still being bandied about. She was NOT asked to remove her clothing. She was asked to tuck the ears back and the tail in.

/kolleen

So you're asking me to believe an adult who physically held down an EIGHT YEAR OLD girl?

This is such a he-say she-say. You know what, in those cases, the person who is IN THE WRONG doesn't have much credibility.

And even if I weren't entirely skeptical and thinking that the ADULT was full of it, asking an EIGHT YEAR OLD to tuck in the tail or pull down the ears or whatever is still something that can be easily misunderstood.

Does the school have cameras?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I have little faith in this school, seeing as how they haven't offered an explanation for their behavior, or any regret over the outcome (which they could totally do without even admitting any wrongdoing). To me, they either have nothing additional to offer, or everything to hide. And it's very obvious that they do not care for this child in any way.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

1. I will not accept that Asperger's and autism are the same diagnosis. They might be in the same general category but they are different and quite clearly different. This child had no verbal regression as a toddler. She can make eye-contact with a camera quite well, I noticed.

Where are you getting your definitions from? Not all Autistic children make a regression as a toddler. Actually, its those who have vax reactions that are more likely to have the verbal regression, not all Autistic children. My son had no regression of speech, only a delayed speech, speech pitch and other speech issues.

My son was first DX'd with Asperger's and later it was revised to Autism. Why? The only difference were slight differences, very slight. As in, how language developed, the type of language used and his perseverance. but its very clear to us that he is definitely Autistic. My classically Autistic son can make eye contact with those he knows well AND making eye contact with a camera has never been an issue... a camera doesn't have eyes or a face.


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## fhqwhgads (Oct 30, 2007)

The only reason we're arguing the semantics of whether Asperger's is or is not autism, or if it should give her a free pass on behavioral issues, is because it was displayed prominently in the article.

If it had never said that word, would you feel differently? I'm sure we can all think of some minor thing that could potentially set off any 8 year old - taking away a favorite toy, being asked to partner up with someone who teased them, being asked not to wear a certain pair of shoes - who knows.

If this were your child, would you find it acceptable that your child was pinned down without violent provocation? Autistic or no, would you be okay with a teacher twice your child's size restraining them when your child DID NOT hit, kick, or otherwise physically provoke the adult first? And, if you are okay with the restraint being used, would you be okay with your child being handcuffed and taken to the police station, and charged with assault because they tantrumed while they were being restrained?

Taken from http://www.overcriminalized.com/Case...rance-Two.aspx :

"When we punish innocents for their mistakes, we turn lady justice into a child swinging for a piñata, blindly waiving her razor-sharp sword amongst the crowd."


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I personally disagree with the description "on the spectrum" and the conflation of Asperger's with autism. It really irks me. This is because classic autism is quite severe, even when not associated with mental retardation, and requires in-depth treatment for years and years even in the best case scenario, whereas people with Asperger's often grow to adulthood without being diagnosed and do, if not normal, then at least fine and well. Depression is as common as among the general population but any child with Asperger's as her only diagnosis can FULLY expect to grow up to finish college and get a good , even without much intervention. There is no reason she should not, unless, ahem, her parents use her diagnosis as an excuse for not helping her to learn how the world works and just chalk up her difficulties to her "disability" and give her an excuse to fail. WHEREAS, children with autism have a verbal disability as well as generally extreme tendencies to stimulate so that they harm themselves, that require in almost every case concerted and long-term intervention.

No, this is a VERY offensive generalization. You are over stereotyping children with Autism. Autistic children are able to grow up and get jobs, marry, have kids and be successful. I think you need to take a visit to the special needs parenting board here at MDC, you'll find dozens of parents of Autistic children who think very differently than you in regards to their children's abilities.

First of all, not all Autistic children are non-verbal. Actually, a large amount are very verbal. And then you might say "Well that high functioning Autism". Nope (technically HFA isn't even a real DX), even children with classic Autism can be verbal. And ALSO, communication is not limited to the ability to speak.

Secondly, stimming is NOT harmful or self harming. VERY LITTLE stimming is self harming even in "severe" Autism. You need to understand the reason and need for the stim and how to handle or redirect it. Autistic kids can learn to cope with this as well, without any kind of long-term intervention.

My almost 8 year old son is in a public school, in a mainstream classroom (with an Aide and Spec Ed support). He participates in little league baseball and boyscouts. Has friends, plays games, speaks, loves, has ambitions. (BTW, he is going to be an architect







) He's very into fashion - says he has to look cool and is picky about what he wears. (mostly brought on by sensory issues) AND he is AUTISTIC, not HFA, not Asperger's... he is officially labeled as moderate classic Autism. He stims, often lacks eye contact, is easily triggered, can melt down. He has a PCA, has OT, ST, goes to social classes, modified curriculum and a very in depth IEP that would have stopped something as ridiculous as the story posted above from every escalating to that point. Actually, we revised his IEP just recently because of a VERY similar meltdown that could have been handled differently to start with. He spent 3 hours fighting with teachers and staff.. swinging/hitting/running and hiding. They didn't call police and have him arrested, they were reasonable and VERY supportive of him. They called us, we came and picked him up and took him to get him calmed down. Then the staff and us sat down and brainstormed ways to prevent this sort of thing. They never even considered calling police.

As a younger child he was aggressive, violent (broken windows to prove it), hard to parent. But as he's gotten older we've worked together to help him cope and learn about himself. I have no doubt in my mind that my Autistic child will grow up to find a career he loves and marry if he chooses to. He has to work harder, but he does it. We never use his Autism as an excuse and never allow him to use it as an excuse. But we are realistic with what should be expected socially from an Autistic 7/8 year old and his reasoning abilities. Life isn't always easy and we choose our battles very carefully and always have a plan B.

My point in this was, please consider that the stereotype you posted above is a very "old school" way of looking at Autism and is not correct for a LARGE portion of Autistic families.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
OMG

I can't believe there is even debate going on over this. An eight year old girl was held down? For not taking a shirt off and for trying to leave the scene?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that what the school did after the initial request and alternatives given were acceptable. The debate is, could it have been avoided by letting her do whatever she wanted, or by designing an alternative strategy for helping her deal with her impulses.

Quote:

Autistic children are able to grow up and get jobs, marry, have kids and be successful.
Absolutely- with help. Again, talking about classic autism. There are people here who have children "on the spectrum" (not a diagnosis, by the way) but with the classic symptoms of autism, you need a lot of support to just achieve the verbal fluency required for a normal life. With Asperger's, you have verbal skills that significantly ease your learning on how to cope with the world as it is.

"My point in this was, please consider that the stereotype you posted above is a very "old school" way of looking at Autism and is not correct for a LARGE portion of Autistic families."

I guess what I would say is that I am talking about classic autism and if your child is HFA, and does not have verbal impairments, that is great. But when we are dealing with a large group of people who have vastly different abilities, it is totally unfair as well to say that a child who is clearly capable of learning self-control and social interaction should be treated like a child for whom that is more of a lifetime struggle. And a lot of people here are suggesting that an autistic child, or a child with Asperger's, can NOT be expected to follow rules on a consistent basis. While the stereotypes of classic autism would support that view, the real Asperger's diagnosis does not. That is why it is important to clarify.

Quote:

Actually, its those who have vax reactions that are more likely to have the verbal regression, not all Autistic children.
Seriously, let's not get started on vaccinations. Not even relevant because whatever diagnosis this girl has, she has. I have never read anything about the relationship between autism or Asperger's and vaccinations outside of, oh, Jenny McCarthy's blatherings, message boards, and a couple of websites selling things. When the APA covers it, give me a call.

Quote:

This was NOT an emergency. And if you don't "feel" like talking to kids, don't be a teacher.
The old MDC logic again. Let's clarify: I said that there are some cases in which explanations are not necessary, therefore children do need to learn to live without explanations every time, and you say that this was not one of those cases, which is irrelevant because I did not say that she didn't have the right to ask. I said, it is not useful to teach your children that no explanation given means no explanation exists. Red herring.

And I'm not "throwing 'false assumption'" around. I said- assumption. Neither of us know so it is silly to build an argument on it.

Quote:

And because their needs are different and special, the same cookie cutter rules cannot be applied.
Children with autism, Asperger's, ADHD, and so on do not need to learn that the world has special rules for them. They need to learn how to cope with rules that are particularly difficult for them to cope with. That is the crux of what I am saying and I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

Rules DO apply to them. They DO have to take off their shoes at the airport. They DO have to wear clothes when speaking at a physics conference. They DO have to refrain from hitting people at school and at public. They DO have to obey dress codes. They DO have to fill in the whole college application. They need tools to cope with the world, and when they need to change it, to change it without putting themselves or others in danger (most of the time).

It is just SO INSULTING to suggest that somehow, most of these children, who are known to be capable of dealing, need to be able to wear whatever they want, whenever they want, or they will have some horrible melt-down and that their psychological make-up does not allow for any other coping mechanisms.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"If the only reason she gets from the teacher is "because I said so," I wouldn't be the one making the complaint. DD would request a pass to the principals office, and make one herself. Heck, she would go without a pass anyway.

We teach our children that "because I said so" is an excuse people give when they have no valid reason behind what they have "said" (read that as ordered)."

You are teaching them something false, then, because sometimes, people don't feel like talking to you. Sometimes, there is a good reason for something but no time to explain. Like when you get a call from the sheriff that you have to evacuate for fires, and he has to call 15 other people before he goes to evacuate the elderly. You can tell the sheriff what you want but you could also accept that sometimes, just sometimes, people in authority do have your best interests at heart, but cannot explain to you exactly why they are asking you for something.

Great that you're teaching your child to go to the halls without a pass. Did it occur to you that safety issues might be behind the whole "pass" idea?

There's a fire, sheriff calls (Why I dunno, here the fire department deals with fires) and says: "There are fires heading your way, you need to evacuate."

Sheriff gave a reason, not "because I said so". Huge difference. In the school halls, someone creepy approaches her. She can take three steps into another classroom and inform the teacher there is a strange man in the hallway.

Quote:

"And yes "because I said so" does hurt her."

Seriously? That hurts her feelings? I can only hope that she grows up to be, um, actually, I cannot imagine what kind of job she is going to be able to cope with in the future with the attitude that she's entitled to a full explanation for everything, every time. I think you are exaggerating her sensitivity. She might be annoyed, but hurt?
I never said it hurts her feelings. There are other things that can be hurt. Like her sense of self. Her understanding that people can't just order her around because they feel like it. To many people take orders without asking why and end up in a whole heap of trouble for it. As for what kind of job is she going to be able to do? Well, lets see... She's creative and artistic so she can be an artist, or a musician, or an actress. She's intelligent and able to gain respect of those around her because she understands that a valid reason is always good to have when making a choice. She can be an entrepreneur, or someone who moves up the ladder in the business world instead of the person in the desk next to her who just does what they are told, nothing more and nothing less. Hell, it's a characteristic that could very well make her a darn good Prime Minister some day.

I can think of plenty of job that don't require blind obedience.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
There's a fire, sheriff calls (Why I dunno, here the fire department deals with fires) and says: "There are fires heading your way, you need to evacuate."

Sheriff gave a reason, not "because I said so". Huge difference. In the school halls, someone creepy approaches her. She can take three steps into another classroom and inform the teacher there is a strange man in the hallway.

I never said it hurts her feelings. There are other things that can be hurt. Like her sense of self. Her understanding that people can't just order her around because they feel like it. To many people take orders without asking why and end up in a whole heap of trouble for it. As for what kind of job is she going to be able to do? Well, lets see... She's creative and artistic so she can be an artist, or a musician, or an actress. She's intelligent and able to gain respect of those around her because she understands that a valid reason is always good to have when making a choice. She can be an entrepreneur, or someone who moves up the ladder in the business world instead of the person in the desk next to her who just does what they are told, nothing more and nothing less. Hell, it's a characteristic that could very well make her a darn good Prime Minister some day.

I can think of plenty of job that don't require blind obedience.

VERY well put!! And those who do not accept blind obedience generally do not expect it, and that'll make her a good person to boot! (but maybe I'm biased because you are describing my DD to a t!







)


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
VERY well put!! And those who do not accept blind obedience generally do not expect it, and that'll make her a good person to boot! (but maybe I'm biased because you are describing my DD to a t!







)


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

We can argue until we are blue in the face whether or not the teachers were justified in stopping her leaving/making her remove the hoodie/tuck in the ears/tail. I think though, where it totally goes over the line is when they called the police, and when the police took her away in handcuffs, with her mom there. School policy or not, this is an 8 year old, and an SN 8 year old at that. So why is there more than 300 posts (give or take) about the teachers, and very little about how the police overreacted? I think they are way WAY more culpable here than the teachers (who do share the blame, but they didn't arrest her, or take her away in handcuffs).


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

"My point in this was, please consider that the stereotype you posted above is a very "old school" way of looking at Autism and is not correct for a LARGE portion of Autistic families."

I guess what I would say is that *I am talking about classic autism and if your child is HFA*, and does not have verbal impairments, that is great. But when we are dealing with a large group of people who have vastly different abilities, it is totally unfair as well to say that a child who is clearly capable of learning self-control and social interaction should be treated like a child for whom that is more of a lifetime struggle. And a lot of people here are suggesting that an autistic child, or a child with Asperger's, can NOT be expected to follow rules on a consistent basis. While the stereotypes of classic autism would support that view, the real Asperger's diagnosis does not. That is why it is important to clarify.

Um, I specifically said NOT HFA, my son has classic Autism. Even kids with classic Autism can be verbal. And both Autistic kids and Asperger's kids can follow rules that are reasonable and appropriate for their development. Actually, its not even about following rules.

Obviously we don't agree here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Seriously, let's not get started on vaccinations. Not even relevant because whatever diagnosis this girl has, she has. I have never read anything about the relationship between autism or Asperger's and vaccinations outside of, oh, Jenny McCarthy's blatherings, message boards, and a couple of websites selling things. When the APA covers it, give me a call.

If you spent ANY time on the MDC special needs parent board here you'd know that was NOT what I was talking about. I was talking about language relapse and Vax. I don't feel Vax are even linked to Autism in any way. I really dislike Jenny McCarthy actually. Vax Damage is not Autism nor linked to it, other than, Autistic kids can have an exaggerated reaction. (But does not cause it!) So you made a HUGE assumption about what my meaning was, you're insulting my intelligence here.

PS, I'm a preschool teacher and have been working with kids for YEARS. My knowledge about Autism is not only from a parenting point of view in regards to my son. Autism and Asperger's run in my family. I also have Asperger's myself. I've also worked with a wide range of Autistic children, from children whom are less affected to classically Autistic children and children with Asperger's. Some of the Autistic children I worked with are ones that you are probably referring to in your stereotype, they were non-verbal as well. The stereotypical Autistic children you see displayed by media hounding groups that are trying to make it a tragedy. So when I'm talking about Autistic kids, I'm not speaking from only my son's perspective.

IMO, teachers and schools are lazy. This really shouldn't be any news to the moms here. The teachers are not taking the time to figure out how to relate or communicate to the child. Not being creative enough in their teaching styles and looking at mainstreaming and the bottom dollar. End of story.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Children with autism, Asperger's, ADHD, and so on do not need to learn that the world has special rules for them. They need to learn how to cope with rules that are particularly difficult for them to cope with. That is the crux of what I am saying and I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

Rules DO apply to them. They DO have to take off their shoes at the airport. They DO have to wear clothes when speaking at a physics conference. They DO have to refrain from hitting people at school and at public. They DO have to obey dress codes. They DO have to fill in the whole college application. They need tools to cope with the world, and when they need to change it, to change it without putting themselves or others in danger (most of the time).

It is just SO INSULTING to suggest that somehow, most of these children, who are known to be capable of dealing, need to be able to wear whatever they want, whenever they want, or they will have some horrible melt-down and that their psychological make-up does not allow for any other coping mechanisms.

Lets take out the special needs aspect.

My Neurotypical daughter is almost 6. She regularly wears a shirt, pants and a skirt, none match and she looks ridiculous. For her Christmas program she insisted, again, to wear one of her crazy outfits. (and I know they don't sound bad, but you'd really have to see some of her combos to get the full picture, lol) I let her. She also, often, insists on wearing 2 hats, mismatching socks... or snowboots all day. In the summer she's worn her bike helmet in stores while also wearing a tu-tu, when not riding a bike or dancing. If an adult did this it would be a distraction and against the dress code of many places of employment. *But, enforcing adult expectations for behavior on a young child is not realistic.* I find that some things are far better learned if a child is just allowed to experience it. Some things just are not worth the fight, they just are not that important. What a child wears is not that important. Its the same in my own classroom. I really do not care what a child is wearing, as long as they are warm and have clothes on. I have a little boy who often wears his PJ bottoms. Another who wears "fancy" dresses several times a week. Others who wear tu-tus or princess skirts. Hey, it doesn't affect their learning or well-being... they are just expressing themselves and being comfortable and experimenting with their own self image. Nothing wrong here.

We're talking about young children, not teenagers, not college age kids and not adults.

Another example taken from a post of mine in the SN forum. ASC means "after school care" that my kids attend.

ASC: Andrew wouldn't give back the string today.
Mom: String? Where was the string from?
ASC: The kids were doing beading and putting the beads on string.
Mom: So the kids that put beads on the string, did they have to give theirs back?
ASC: No, they kept their string. But Andrew did nothing productive with his.
Mom: So it was a big deal that he wanted the string?
ASC: Well we can't just let him keep the string, we'd use it next time.
Mom: Its string.
ASC: Yeah, but nothing was on it.
Mom: So, its string.
ASC: Nothing was on it, he can't keep it we'll use it next time.
Mom: So tie it into a necklace like the other kids, now its something.
ASC: But nothing was on it.

(I'm waiting for a light to ding... nothing)

Mom: So? If the rules were that they had to use the string for only beading then you shouldn't have even let him or the other kids that didn't bead have it in the first place. You should have stated the rules from the start. Since you didn't clarify and let them play with the string pieces from the beginning then its your own fault when the kids wanted to keep it. Its all or nothing, you're just confusing them. If a child in my classroom decides they don't want to put anything on their string, I send home blank string, not a big deal. I pick my battles carefully and that is not one I'd be willing to pick.
ASC: Oh.


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## williamsmommy2002 (Feb 25, 2003)

So if Asperger's is not autism, why does my youngest get services through our state under the label of "autistic disorder"? He's had no speech delay before the age of two(was speaking in sentences). He is also of average intelligence. Two of the basic things that differentiate classic autism and Asperger's syndrome. As for why many people with Asperger's were diagnosed as adults, it wasn't in the DSM until the '90's. I was 18 in 1992. My aspie brother and BIL are both older than I so they would have been adults.

As for "functioning level", my oldest is not really considered to have much of a speech delay any longer. His functioning level is not that high. He has a lot of issues with dealing with people and has serious sensory issues. He will probably require a lot of support in his life. That's ok but speech ability and intelligence are not great predicters of success in life.

I also want to address the thought that we think our children don't have to follow the rules. I do think that we have to teach my kids the rules. We struggle a lot with things. However we do pick our battles with them. Teaching them takes a bit more work. Just because we are outraged at this girl's treatment does not mean we let our children run wild in the streets. Also just because her mom was not particularly involved does not mean that this girl needed to be punished for it. Many times parents are very overwhelmed with a diagnosis and don't know where to turn. I once met a mom in the park who had an autistic boy who was just lost. I was able to talk to her a bit and give her some advice and places to turn. I'm glad I did. She wasn't uncaring, she was just starting on this journey and didn't know where to turn.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *williamsmommy2002* 
So if Asperger's is not autism, why does my youngest get services through our state under the label of "autistic disorder". He's had no speech delay before the age of two(was speaking in sentences). He is also of average intelligence. Two of the basic things that differentiate classic autism and Asperger's syndrome. As for why many people with Asperger's were diagnosed as adults, it wasn't in the DSM until 1991. I was 17. in 1991. My aspie brother and BIL are both older than I so they would have been adults.

As for "functioning level", my oldest is not really considered to have much of a speech delay any longer. His functioning level is not that high. He has a lot of issues with dealing with people and has serious sensory issues. He will probably require a lot of support in his life. That's ok but speech ability and intelligence are not great predicters of success in life.

I also want to address the thought that we think our children don't have to follow the rules. I do think that we have to teach my kids the rules. We struggle a lot with things. However we do pick our battles with them. Teaching them takes a bit more work. Just because we are outraged at this girl's treatment does not mean we let our children run wild in the streets. Also just because her mom was not particularly involved does not mean that this girl needed to be punished for it. Many times parents are very overwhelmed with a diagnosis and don't know where to turn. I once met a mom in the park who had an autistic boy who was just lost. I was able to talk to her a bit and give her some advice and places to turn. I'm glad I did. She wasn't uncaring, she was just starting on this journey and didn't know where to turn.

Actually it was added to the DSM in '94. It was added to the ICD in '92.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
It amounts to the same thing. An autistic child was asked to remove something for in their minds no good reason. I don't care if you keep throwing 'false assumption' around. It amounts to the same thing.

She was Triggered
She was Attacked
And then she was arrested for defending herself.

Who cares about the semantics?

I care about truth. When a pp associated "tucking the tail in and the ears back" with "removing an article of clothing hence stripping" its beyond semantics.

A lot of righteous indignation bandied about over a jump in conclusion.

Be mad about the teaching not being smart enough to just stand in front of the door.
Be mad about the police that went totally overboard and should of calmed the situation when they arrived, not escalated it.
Be mad the mother wasn't called first and put on the phone with the kid.

But don't be mad about something that didn't happen, IMO.

/kolleen


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I have little faith in this school, seeing as how they haven't offered an explanation for their behavior, or any regret over the outcome (which they could totally do without even admitting any wrongdoing). To me, they either have nothing additional to offer, or everything to hide. And it's very obvious that they do not care for this child in any way.

For legal reasons the school CAN'T say anything. I hope the media follows up on this so we can hear more details from both sides.

We're all pretty sure the school was at fault here for the escalation and then the police were more at fault for compounding it. But there are some details that we don't know (such as did she have the hoodie on in class or did she just put it on when it was time for the party, etc.).

/kolleen


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But what about everyone else? If the school doesn't allow all of the children to dress up like cows (ducks/dogs/cats/chickens) then why her?

Because, presumably, the child has a special dispensation for such things. Like adults with dyslexia can get extra time to take university exams and no one else minds.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Because, presumably, the child has a special dispensation for such things. Like adults with dyslexia can get extra time to take university exams and no one else minds.

Or maybe it's because there is nothing in the dress code about not wearing clothes that resemble animals, so technically the school school doesn't prevent any child from wearing a cow hoodie.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I care about truth. When a pp associated "tucking the tail in and the ears back" with "removing an article of clothing hence stripping" its beyond semantics.

A lot of righteous indignation bandied about over a jump in conclusion.

Be mad about the teaching not being smart enough to just stand in front of the door.
Be mad about the police that went totally overboard and should of calmed the situation when they arrived, not escalated it.
Be mad the mother wasn't called first and put on the phone with the kid.

But don't be mad about something that didn't happen, IMO.

/kolleen

If you really cared about the truth, you wouldn't be taking that statement as truth. It is hearsay.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

I'm really confused as to what the problem with her wearing the costume/hoodie was at all......why insist she take it off/tuck in various parts of it/whatever the case was to go to the party....why not just let her wear the hoodie....


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
If you really cared about the truth, you wouldn't be taking that statement as truth. It is hearsay.

Thank you for pointing that out. As with life, the "truth" is all we know at the time until more information is available. What we know right now is that she was asked to tuck the tail in and put the ears back.

/kolleen


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kolleen9* 
I care about truth. When a pp associated "tucking the tail in and the ears back" with "removing an article of clothing hence stripping" its beyond semantics.

A lot of righteous indignation bandied about over a jump in conclusion.

Be mad about the teaching not being smart enough to just stand in front of the door.
Be mad about the police that went totally overboard and should of calmed the situation when they arrived, not escalated it.
Be mad the mother wasn't called first and put on the phone with the kid.

But don't be mad about something that didn't happen, IMO.

/kolleen

Actually if you reference the original article linked in the first post, it states that the staff told the child that she couldn't wear the sweatshirt to the assembly and that she'd have to tuck in the tail and put down the hood. The girl then comments about being unwilling to remove the shirt. Either the staff DID tell her she had to take it off, they amended it to either/or or they phrased it to where the child interpreted it to mean that she needed to take it off. From the child's perception and from what the article states, it's very likely that she was actually asked to remove it initially. Changing the options on her in the middle of this didn't seem to get past what she initially heard - to _remove_ the shirt.

K.


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## cjuniverse (Sep 22, 2005)

I wish that just once, people would practice some common freakin' sense and not violently abuse people they find 'difficult'. The fact that this is ever done at all is a sad and scary commentary on what our culture has become. Immune to compassion and basic decency, for one.

It would also be nice if people would not support this behavior by siding with those who do it.

It's abuse, it's wrong, we all know it. There are always options to hurting people. It's the easy way out, it's morally wrong, and nobody should be supporting it or those who do it.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that what the school did after the initial request and alternatives given were acceptable. The debate is, could it have been avoided by letting her do whatever she wanted, or by designing an alternative strategy for helping her deal with her impulses.

Children with autism, Asperger's, ADHD, and so on do not need to learn that the world has special rules for them. *They need to learn how to cope with rules that are particularly difficult for them to cope with.* That is the crux of what I am saying and I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

Rules DO apply to them. They DO have to take off their shoes at the airport. They DO have to wear clothes when speaking at a physics conference. They DO have to refrain from hitting people at school and at public. They DO have to obey dress codes. They DO have to fill in the whole college application. *They need tools to cope with the world, and when they need to change it, to change it without putting themselves or others in danger (most of the time).*

It is just SO INSULTING to suggest that somehow, most of these children, who are known to be capable of dealing, need to be able to wear whatever they want, whenever they want, or they will have some horrible melt-down and that their psychological make-up does not allow for any other coping mechanisms.

My bolding.

Where is the danger to self or others? How is this teaching someone to cope with the real world? Really?

It seems like it is more important that rules are being followed, whether or not they need to be. What a strange attitude- These kids-or any kid for that matter- need to be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want, at all costs because they will not be able to adequately cope in the real world of taking shoes off in the airport and wearing clothes at physics conferences if I look the other way when a cow hoodie is worn to a school play. After all it as my job as Oh Great Teacher to ensure that no one gets away with anything that others are not permitted to do; everyone must perform the exact same steps to get to the answer in the great big test of Life, or it just would _not_ be fair, waah!

Aren't we told as parents that treating our children fairly means treating them _un_equally? What one child needs another doesn't... it just seems so arbitrary (this one size fits all approach)...

Like she said,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kristine233* 
*I pick my battles carefully and that is not one I'd be willing to pick.*


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
We can argue until we are blue in the face whether or not the teachers were justified in stopping her leaving/making her remove the hoodie/tuck in the ears/tail. I think though, where it totally goes over the line is when they called the police, and when the police took her away in handcuffs, with her mom there. School policy or not, this is an 8 year old, and an SN 8 year old at that. So why is there more than 300 posts (give or take) about the teachers, and very little about how the police overreacted? I think they are way WAY more culpable here than the teachers (who do share the blame, but they didn't arrest her, or take her away in handcuffs).

If a complaint is lodged and files charged the police do not have a choice in the matter.

The teacher decided to press charges. That means the child has to be booked. What I do NOT get is why she was detained in the Juvi center when it is against their policy to admit anyone under the age of 10. She should have been immediately released to her parent/gaurdian who obviously followed them to the center and did what she could to get her daughter out.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
If a complaint is lodged and files charged the police do not have a choice in the matter.

The teacher decided to press charges. That means the child has to be booked. What I do NOT get is why she was detained in the Juvi center when it is against their policy to admit anyone under the age of 10. She should have been immediately released to her parent/gaurdian who obviously followed them to the center and did what she could to get her daughter out.

She was booked because the police officer wanted to scare her and teacher her a lesson. I wonder if he knew that she was SN before he booked her though.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

nm


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:

She was booked because the police officer wanted to scare her and teacher her a lesson. I wonder if he knew that she was SN before he booked her though.
I don't know how it is where you are, but here it's like Yoshua said. If someone presses charges, then it needs to be followed up on including detaining the person the charges where filed against.

Of course here, you get taken to the polices station, not sent off to juvi...


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
She was booked because the police officer wanted to scare her and teacher her a lesson. I wonder if he knew that she was SN before he booked her though.

Why do so many think FEAR is THE WAY to teach a "lesson?"







:


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## CallMeKelly (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
...I never said it hurts her feelings. There are other things that can be hurt. Like her sense of self. Her understanding that people can't just order her around because they feel like it. To many people take orders without asking why and end up in a whole heap of trouble for it. As for what kind of job is she going to be able to do? Well, lets see... She's creative and artistic so she can be an artist, or a musician, or an actress. She's intelligent and able to gain respect of those around her because she understands that a valid reason is always good to have when making a choice. She can be an entrepreneur, or someone who moves up the ladder in the business world instead of the person in the desk next to her who just does what they are told, nothing more and nothing less. Hell, it's a characteristic that could very well make her a darn good Prime Minister some day.

I can think of plenty of job that don't require blind obedience.

Thank you for saying this so well. I try to stay away from speaking to my children in a way that I would consider disrepectful if it were said to myself or any other adult. "Because I said so" is extremely disrespectful IMO and I would be quite upset if someone were to speak to my child that way. Every time someone says BISS to a child they miss out on an educational opportunity and IMO do damage to the childs willingness to question freely. The child who does not feel comfortable asking questions cannot reach their full potential.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Or maybe it's because there is nothing in the dress code about not wearing clothes that resemble animals, so technically the school school doesn't prevent any child from wearing a cow hoodie.

Well, yeah, that was my first thought, but they why would they be so pissy about it? Since they reacted as they did, I decided they must have a stupid rule like that.

Hmm, or...







. I'm assuming sane adults and that's a mistake. It's just as likely that they don't have a rule like that, but they do have a desire to make the kid on the spectrum act twice as normal as anyone else, isn't it?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

sorry if this has already been discussed but i was talking to DP about this and he pointed out that one of the things i do for him (he has asperger's) is to try and give him fair warning for things. did they tell this girl ahead of time that it was ok that she wears the sweatshirt now but will need to take it off when they went to wherever it is she was going or did they wait until they wanted her to take the sweatshirt off to tell her? with DP letting him know ahead of time and then reminding him as it gets closer goes along way in situations like these.


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