# Wow. So that's what you really think? My child wasn't "a child"? Only a fetus? Even at 38 weeks gestation?!



## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I posted a link on facebook from a mama talking about how people should treat parents of deceased babies... my brother apparently was annoyed by it and sent me a horribly garbled misspelled no punctuation message.

He said that since the law says Fiona was a fetus as she didn't leave my womb alive that's why no one wants to talk to me about my loss. That God aborted Fiona. That "they" think I should 'get over it' and that I'm hurting Orion 'with this thinking of Fiona as being a living child'.

He says that "most people I speak with" think I need "professional help". And that he is "sorry" but "worn out about hearing you think that no body want to hurt you, because the fact is they don't want to piss you off".

My response is extremely long, so I'll refrain from posting it. But it was pretty much said you and your invisible army suck, my child is real what does it matter she never took a breath, and what business is it to you and yours about judging me when you only see me a couple times a year. I refuse to have relationships with people who can't honor my child's personhood.

I do hope to find out who these other 'people' are talking to him, so I can know who else I need to weed out of my life.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Does your UAV brother have children?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I have had a late term loss.... 36 weeks and a 9 week miscarriage.

My husband's family is Jewish... because our lost son never took a breath, I was supposed to "get over it" and conceive the next one. Sigh.

I'm also hugely pro-choice and it occurs to me that if your mama wants you... you are as good as there.

Sorry folks are dense. I think most of us with losses have had to put up with a certain amount of this.


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## enigo (Mar 11, 2009)

First







s
Second this must be doubly rough since he is your brother.
I was so mad reading this I mentally punched him in the neck for you. I never thought there were people who felt that way.
Very difficult to read his post. I could say all sorts of rude things about it, but I really don't know where to start.
"God aborted her in the womb"? What an awful awful thing to say to someone.









Sounds he and his invisible army are a bunch of a$%#!


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## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm sorry to barge in, I don't really belong here, but I saw this on New Posts and just wanted to say OMFG your BROTHER said that? This has to be one of the most insensitive, HATEFUL things I've read in a while. I am so so sorry you had to get this from one of your family members.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I have no had a loss like yours.....reading your brothers message brought tears to my eyes.

Fiona was a baby of yours and you will always be her mother....I am so so so so sorry that you have to read stuff like this from your OWN family.

HUGS.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

That is so cruel and crass. Wow, just wow. Reminds me of my brother only worse. If I were you I would UNfriend him on Facebook and in life. I wouldn't even have bothered writing him back. Ugh.

P.S. "Professional help" is a great idea but it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you-- there's no shame in seeing a therapist that you can talk to, who understands!

P.P.S. I am so sorry for the loss of your sweet baby. Of course she was as real as real can be! She was living and loving and kicking and cuddling with her mommy right up to the end of her mortal life, and her spirit still lives on.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

He's got two daughters both adults now.

I replied in part because my fierce mama bear side wouldn't let that #*&^ go by without sticking up for my baby girl, and in part because WHO is talking this smack with him? My other brothers? Their wives? WHO?!

When I replied back I listed all the professionals I have seen since loosing Fiona, and pointed out that every single one of them have said how *great* I've done with Orion. It was certainly a mental health-fest this last year with such bad anxiety I needed medication for that. (yay I was able to wean off that in october for ttc). I was already on zoloft for depression, and then finally got kaiser to agree that I did indeed need medication because I do indeed suffer from nasty mood swings because I'm bi-polar. I didn't include all these details, but told him that I had no shame in the help I did receive and if he and any of these nosy people actually *knew* me, they'd *know* that.

Philomom, what kind of uncaring people are we surrounded with who can't just offer us comfort and love while keeping any awful thoughts about the fetus/baby/"real" to their selfs? It doesn't cost a dime to be loving.

I told him if he was tired of my posts he could unfriend me. Honestly I'm dying to know who the hell is talking about me behind my back.

And cruel. Yes. That is totally the word for it.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Wow, that is pretty rotten of him! I'd bet money that the 'others' saying this stuff are imaginary. Most of the time people talk of 'others' agreeing with them means they are too chicken to actually say they think this horrible stuff, and aren't man enough to say it.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I wish I could believe it is imaginary... however my intuition says he's having conversations with others in my family. Certainly he agrees with them or he'd have said so in his message.

After I posted my link brother M (who sent the message) replied to the link with a comment about how "yes it is weird to talk to you about this" and then brother K who hasn't used facebook since August wrote on my wall about how he didn't come to the memorial because he didn't have any memories to share about Fiona and hopes that someday I can "get over this and move forward with life" (as if I'm not continuing living... as if grieving isn't part of life). I'm fairly sure M called/emailed/messaged K and that they've had prior conversations together.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I am livid for you! I wouldn't give them the option of whether or not they want to be in your life-- they are treating you with no respect at all. I would cut them off and who cares how much they talk about you after that.


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## Guinevere (Apr 17, 2004)

Oh, Lisa, I'm so sorry you have such a UAV for a family member -- is your brother this insensitive in other areas of your life or does he reserve his worst behavior for dead babies?









Either way, I absolutely couldn't have any sort of relationship with someone who not only thought that about me and my lost child, but actually felt it even remotely appropriate to express it to you!














That is toxic behavior, through and through.

I'm really sorry you had to read that -- honestly, though, the junk he spewed at you -- it might say a lot about him, but it doesn't touch you and sweet Fiona. You are doing your best to heal from utter heartbreak; don't let someone who obviously has not the first clue about this kind of pain put you on the defensive about how you're handling it. You're fine, whereas I'm not sure he ever will be.









Guin


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

What a UAV! He's also very misinformed. If a child at 38 weeks gestation wasn't considered a "real child" then it would be impossible to prosecute anyone who killed a pre-born baby at that age - but the fact is, that IS a crime in many states. Not to mention abortion laws limit the gestational age because after a certain point it's considered a "baby". And what, if she'd been born alive at 28 weeks and passed within minutes then it'd be ok for you to grieve?? I would agree that someone needs therapy - his entire logic basis is beyond messed up!

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Really, who cares who says what about you? If they're all of the same mentality of this, they are nothing but toxic and seriously convuluted in their thinking and are of no benefit to you in your life. I would unfriend your two brothers and try to avoid contact with them from here on out. Regardless if their views change or you feel better about the situation, there is NOTHING in this world that entitles him to speak to you so hatefully, including a different perspective or opinion. Misguided and inconceivable though his stance is, if he were actually a caring person who was concerned about your well being he wouldn't see fit to attack you, but would instead bother to talk with you in person, dig a little on if you've been to therapy, etc before gently making his misguided suggestions. ((hugs!))


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## SimplyRochelle (Feb 21, 2007)

I am so mad for you too! Your daughter was VERY REAL and you have every right to grieve as long as you need to. It's barely been a year! I am so very sorry that your family feels that way. We will all become your surrogate family! I've felt anger towards people for feeling that way about my loss and it was still early, so I can't imagine if I'd carried my little one to term only to have someone still act like they never existed.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StarMama* 
I wish I could believe it is imaginary... however my intuition says he's having conversations with others in my family. Certainly he agrees with them or he'd have said so in his message.

After I posted my link brother M (who sent the message) replied to the link with a comment about how "yes it is weird to talk to you about this" and then brother K who hasn't used facebook since August wrote on my wall about how *he didn't come to the memorial because he didn't have any memories to share about Fiona* and hopes that someday I can "get over this and move forward with life" (as if I'm not continuing living... as if grieving isn't part of life). I'm fairly sure M called/emailed/messaged K and that they've had prior conversations together.

Huh?? Bluntly put, the point of attending a service is to show support for the person/people who have lost a loved one. But apparently your brother K thinks a memorial or funeral service is all about him and his relationship with the deceased? Wow, that's pretty selfish. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this stuff!


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## rsummer (Oct 27, 2006)

Umm, whoa, wow, gosh, OMG...

I don't even know what to say to that except, what the heck, and where does he get off...


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## sahmmie (Jan 13, 2008)

I'm so sorry you have to bear this kind of insensitivity in the face of so much pain. Fiona was (still is if you believe as I do) just as real and just as significant as your living, breathing child. Your brother (and anyone who agrees with him) is seriously flawed in their reasoning and more so in their relationship skills. Who the hell cares if Fiona meant anything to him? If he cared about you he'd treat you the way you need and deserve to be treated, regardless. Some people just never "get it" until something tragic happens to themselves.

A therapist once told me that "healthy people remove themselves from unhealthy situations and unhealthy people." Don't go looking to find out what he and others are saying about you or your loss. Withdraw yourself from such insanity. Instead surround yourself with people who support you and care about you. Those folks don't deserve you in their life.

Take care of yourself. You will honor Fiona's memory better by loving yourself and taking care of yourself than by allowing yourself to be continually hurt by clueless duds like your brother.


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## millefleur (Nov 25, 2008)

So offensive.







to you. Fiona is just as real and significant as any other child.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Honestly? I have no words to express how wrong he really is. He not only demonstrates bewildering ignorance but also incomprehensible insensitivity to even think of saying those things to you. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say something hurtful to those of us with losses, but your brother clearly doesn't deserve even that. If he had even the slightest understanding of the impact Fiona has had on your family and the joy that she brought, I'm sure he would recognize how infinitely wrong he is.


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## NoraFlood (Dec 21, 2008)

That makes me absolutely furious. Not many people can relate to having a stillborn child, but that doesn't mean they can't try to have a little empathy. Has he tried for even a second to walk in your shoes?

I'm really sorry about this. I can't imagine how hurt you must be.


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

omg i'm just speachless how could anyone be so cruel and insensitive.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

I cannot even believe what I read. That is heartless and cruel.







I could not continue contact with someone who said those things. If you don't understand you ask questions and learn so you can gain understanding.

There is no love in his message. How incredibly hurtful.

Is he mentally stable? I'm just asking because his message was so erratic and jumbled and malicious. Maybe he's dealing with something mentally?








We were in DDC together and I remember so vividly Fiona's story. She's very real to me, I'm sorry he can't see that.


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## namaste_mom (Oct 21, 2005)

He is so wrong. Just Wrong.

(((HUGS))) I have little contact with the majority of my family because it appears that they did not know how to deal with me after losing Norah. It is sad but I'm OK with it now.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I'm so angry that I can't get my words out right. I can't believe that! I'm so sorry!!

Ds was born at 34 weeks - I'm just speechless that anyone would think you should just get over this HUGE loss?! I don't have anything great to say, I'm too upset over that letter!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Really, who cares who says what about you? If they're all of the same mentality of this, they are nothing but toxic and seriously convuluted in their thinking and are of no benefit to you in your life. I would unfriend your two brothers and try to avoid contact with them from here on out.

I want to find out who's talking about me and Fiona like this so I can ditch them all. I have three brothers, their three wives, and their 5 children, plus my brother's mom (they are half brothers), and her family whom I see on occasion. I don't want to block all contact until I know who all to say goodbye to. It breaks my heart that people I love are saying these things, and I'm hoping that its not all of them. My parents passed away when I was a teenager, and really this is the only family I'm in contact with, even occasionally.

Originally I was just going to leave things be. To just write him and let him decide what to do about me and facebook. After a night to sleep on it and the throw up feeling in my stomach, I've decided once I get this sorted out then I am going to cut every single bit of contact with him. Block him in every avenue I can. Never ever EVER speak to him again. And anyone else who he is in league with over my baby.

However I'm scratching my head about figuring out who's backstabbing me. Do I email the other two brothers (one of whom, K, I'm guess is part of the mess even though it is COMPLETELY out of his character) and ask them? I don't want to cause more mess, I just want to know who needs to be completely cut out of my life and who isn't part of this insanity.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm so sorry that happened to you, mama. It had to dredge up all kinds of emotions. I know how angry I was just reading it!







My DD was stillborn @ 37weeks and I can't imagine knowing that I had family who really felt like this. i think that I would have to distance myself from anyone, family or not, that couldn't give my very real child consideration.


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## pacificbliss (Jun 17, 2006)

OMG that's horrible. How could anyone possibly say that?! It's beyond me. I am so sorry. I agree with you. I would not be able to ever speak to him again and I would want to know who "they are too". I would probably copy his message, email it to the family and ask who else feels that way? That way I would not have to wonder about everyone I spoke with. Once I knew I could wipe my hands of them. It isn't human. Actually, that's not fair to say as other animals mourn stillbirths. I am so sorry.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Having removed family members from my facebook page, and having completely separated from other toxic family members in the past, I suggest you remove all of your family members from your facebook page, make sure they all have your email address, and take some time, perhaps a year, to re-evaluate. The family members who were talking behind your back will think twice. Some will contact you and send you a bit of support (after all, they likely would have seen that interaction) or they won't. After a year of detaching yourself from that part of the situation, you can re-evaluate and decide if you want to permanently remove those relationships from your life.

Well, that's my uneducated advice, just my gut feeling.

I'm so sorry for your loss. Your brothers don't know what in the world they are talking about, obviously. If they have children, I feel a teeny bit sorry for them.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)




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## alternamama82 (May 28, 2009)

What an aweful, insensitive person! I am so, so sorry. I know it's easier said than done, but try not to let his ignorance get to you. I've dealt with some pretty painful (and downright mean) comments from my close family members too. I just keep in mind how thankful I am to have found such an amazing community of people on here who are supportive and truly GET IT. Definately time to weed some of those jerks out of your life!


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm so sorry. Maybe just call and ask them point blank if they feel the same way about Fiona and that you should "move on." If they say yes then I'd just hang up and don't answer their calls. You've got the answer you wanted and you do not have to defend yourself against their ignorance. Plus, the hanging up and not speaking to them again will send your message loud and clear.

You know the truth, as do the majority of "normal" caring adults in this world. That doesn't make his words hurt less though. Hugs to you.


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## JayJay (Aug 1, 2008)

(Editing as I've been asked to edit because I called him names...lol







)

Oh dear Lord. What a horrible thing to say. I'm sorry but really, he's a grown adult and he's just acted like a complete @*&^% - no two ways about it. Wow.

If he chooses to be completely ignorant, go for it - I'd tell him to get lost if he were my brother! I mean in medical terminology, of course, they say "fetus" but let's face it - there's no frikken difference between a baby who came out alive and a baby who didn't. They're still babies.

Naturally I would assume he would want to be referred to as a "male corpse" and have his body incinerated when he's dead, since he chooses to use the same type of terminology when talking about the death of a child.

Dude needs a life!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Star, that's just terrible. Beyond terrible.

When I lost my second baby, I actually thought of you and how strong and graceful you were through Fiona's death and birth. When I feel overwhelmed now, I find myself thinking of you and how well you've handled it. It gives me a lot of strength and comfort. It makes me feel physically ill that anyone would have the nerve to talk to you that way. I'm really livid.

And I'm so very sorry. You don't deserve this.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

First of all, I am so sorry for your loss. There's no doubt at all that Fiona was most definitely a precious little baby, one who simply had to leave us a little earlier in life than most







.

Second, on the bright side, you can now worry about buying birthday and holiday gifts for one fewer person







. You could put that money toward something much more meaningful, such as a gorgeous bunch of flowers and a candle to light on Fiona's birthday.


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## starshine1001 (Feb 16, 2008)

That's so horrible! Does this have anything to do with the "Angel Baby" loss that I just copied and pasted as my status on Facebook? It says: Put this as your status if you or somebody you know has suffered the loss of a BABY.♥♥♥ The majority won't put it on, because unlike cancer, baby loss is taboo. ♥♥♥ Break the silence. ♥♥♥ In Memory of all the ~Angel~ babies gone too soon but never forgotten!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Annette whenever I think about how far along I would be if we hadn't lost our little one this summer as well I think of you. I don't know how graceful I've felt through Fiona's loss, but I know I didn't just crawl into bed and say forget you world, and I guess that's enough, huh? I'm glad that it can help you a little too with your newest loss. I sure wish we could have gone through pregnancy and babies together.

Starshine, nope that's a great facebook status though! I was linking to a blog post... I'm not sure if I can direct link to a blog or not, I'm so not up to date on the user agreement, lol!

Heck, my brothers don't even *know* we lost another baby in 2009 either!

I can't even fathom his reasoning. Law says babies born deceased = fetus. Fetus = Don't Be Sad. Wha?? I don't even CARE about the fetus/baby argument but how does a law about what to call a little living being equal what anyone should feel about said living little being? For pete's sake my miscarriage last year the baby didn't even get to having a heartbeat status and I still was sad and I know that's ok! Sheesh!

I'm really leaning towards calling my SIL who's always been kind to me about the situation. It would be extra unbelievably hard if she agrees with M, but I also think she's the best bet to have someone caring and on my side. Oh yeah, she and M hate each other too (I dunno the situation, its been eons) so that helps!


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## NullSet (Dec 19, 2004)

Wow...just wow. Would all these people who post hurtful things on FB say these things to someone's face? That is just so hurtful.


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

I couldn't read and NOT send you so much love. I haven't read his words - they're gone from your original post but I don't need to, to feel sick to my stomach on your behalf. I hope you are able to weed out the toxic elements of your family. Just SO MUCH love and light to you and *ALL* your beautiful children.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enigo* 
First







s
Second this must be doubly rough since he is your brother.
I was so mad reading this I mentally punched him in the neck for you.

That, I'm afraid, is NOT where I punched him.









I also called him a









I'll go beat him up for you. I will.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't even know what to say other than I'm sorry.


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## Bea (Apr 6, 2008)

Fiona was 'only' a foetus just like I am 'only' an adult.

How. dare. he. minimise her life and your pain.

I'm so sorry.


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

I am just completely.. dumbfounded.. and sickened.. and *FUMING* for you. It blows my mind that anyone, especially someone who shares the same blood as you, could say something so cold, heartless, and cruel. I am so extremely sorry that not only did you lose your sweet *BABY*, but that you have to deal with a







of a brother who thinks you should act like she never existed at all. I'm in tears for you right now.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

I think that the loss like this is so profound that one coping mechanism is to try to avoid thinking about it and to try to minimize the loss. It is an attempt at relieving yourself from the sadness of knowing a child has passed. I'm not going to defend your brother. But I can see through it. He wants you to be "over it" (happy again) so he can pretend it never happened and he can be happy knowing that you are OK.
I'm sorry he is in this place. I wish he could be more supportive. But I promise you that with or without his validation- your baby was a "real" living baby. Your child will always be with you. You will grieve in different ways over the course of your lifetime. Continue to seek support as you have been doing.


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## Mami_2_IB_n_DJ (Jan 2, 2010)

I know how you feel. My ex-father in law did not accept neither of my angel baby pregnancies as babies. My DD was alive for 4 days and he never recognized her as his granddaughter, the only one BTW. For my DS birth even worse. Pretty much his attitude was " Get over it, it was a m/c, nothing much." I don't know if my ex-husband ever had children with his new wife. I heard she had 4 children from a previous relationship and is 8 years older than him.
I currently have 2 beautiful babies and tell women not to give up so quickly. It took me 15 years, but I finally have them.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thankfully we're not close. Thankfully I know that I don't need his say so to mourn my daughter, baby, *person that I love*.

People can say what they want, but her soul was within me. Her soul on occasion has come back to rest with me and comfort me, as well as the spirit of Skyler (our bitty loss). Call it funny or weird, but I can only explain it as a mental picture of them in my arms and the hole in my heart feeling full if only for a few moments. I knew what Fiona would look like before she was born (hair color, light skin tone like her daddy, bitty ears as opposed to her big brother's elf ears lol! ect.,) because I could 'see' her in my arms. I knew Skyler would have dark hair and a complexion more like mine (olive tones).

I've always been a person to make decisions from my feelings, my heart, my intuition. And all of those say my babies were real, their souls are still about even though their bodies aren't.

Now I just have the quandary of wanting to know about my other two brothers and if they were part of this backstabbing gossip. I need to cut out these toxic people. I've been having conversations and gathering opinions... so if anyone has any ideas for how to find and cut out the toxic people besides brother M in as low stress low drama way as possible (I say as possible, no way is this low stress or drama!) I'd love to hear it.

Its not like I'm close with any of them, but they are the only real contact I still have with my paternal family. My parents passed away when I was a teenager and cutting contact is not what I *want* to do because I want to gather my family close, but its what I *need* to do.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm sorry honey. I have had six early losses, and still don't feel like I measure up to the pain you and others must feel when they have lost babies later on. I'm sorry for the loss of your sweet girl and the lemon juice being poured in your wound. I'll bring the vodka, someone bring the ice and we'll toast to our littles.

Trisha


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

and also.... sometimes, our family of choice becomes more important than our family of chance. We too, are your family.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh yes, family of choice wins out everytime. Orion has three Aunties that aren't blood related, but they *are* my sisters, and they've been there for me every single time I've needed them. I had to have a very annoyed conversation with my MIL when she was trying to tell Orion that they WEREN'T his Aunties (and didn't have to say much because Orion said "Michelle IS my Aunt! I love her!").


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## Megan73 (May 16, 2007)

Unbelievable.
I'm still struggling to forgive family members' sins of omission when my first babe was born still almost three years ago. A sin of commission like your brothers? Unforgivable.
I wonder from his post whether he has some mental health or substance abuse problem - it's THAT weird. But you need to stay far, far away from him while you heal. It sounds to me like talking to your friendly SIL is a good idea.
I'm SO sorry, mama.







Fiona


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm so sorry you had to put up with that! What a jerk!!


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## ecstaticmama24 (Sep 20, 2006)

I have come to realize that regardless of when you lose your baby (be it 10 weeks or 38) people still do not allow you to grieve. It's no fair and those people are so mean.

I don't get why people think they can determine our level of grief and loss, it's our babies!!!! They were growing in our tummies, whey don't people see this? And in your case, your baby was fully grown, an obvious baby, I just don't get it.

I'm sorry your going through this, especially with your brother.


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