# So, DH wants a hand gun



## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Title says it all. He grew up with guns in the house. He probably won't step down on this. We can't afford one now, but it comes up every now and then.

So, spam me on information. Both sides.

If we do have guns in the house, what are your best safety tips... classes, storage, etc... what precautions need to be taken... etc...

I'm not particularly comfortable with it at this point, but I haven't researched at all or given it a ton of thought. Just would love some input from both sides of the fence.

Thanks


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## PMolly (Dec 16, 2005)

Buy a gun safe BEFORE the gun, so there is no excuse not to keep it locked. Use the safe all the time. Store the ammo in a different location, nowhere near the always locked safe. Never store it loaded. Know the combination to the safe, but do not allow your children to know it, and change it if you can.

I believe it is much safer to have a gun in the home with a child that is familiar with it and knows gun safety than to have a child ignorant of guns, gun danger and safety with no gun in the home. Education is key.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

I disagree with the pp - ALWAYS keep the gun loaded. I see you are in Georgia, so you have pretty good CCW laws. This has become a long post, but please read it all, as it may give you some insight into why your husband wants a gun; why he wants to protect his family and those around him.

So, if your hubby wants a handgun, what's the primary purpose? Personal protection? Home protection? Family protection?

Steps he should take:

1. Join an online resource to research his options. All major brands of firearms have a forum like MDC to discuss. www.glocktalk.com is an example.

2. Decide what the purpose of the firearm will be. If he has a concern for his personal security, will he carry it on him all the time? Will his workplace allow this? Will the firearm stay at home, for home protection?

3. Purchase a safe that will meet the goal set out in 2. If the gun is home alone, you need a safe that will bolt to structural members of the house, that has separate locking compartments for ammo and gun etc.

4. If hubby has a concern about home safety (home invasion, burglary etc) then you won't have time to open 2 safes, assemble the ammo and the magazine, load the weapon and bring it to bear. Therefore, if the gun is for home defence of an active and imminent threat, then an accesible safe where the gun can be kept ready-to-go is needed. A safe that has a keypad is likely the best option when the gun isn't being worn.

5. Once the purpose, style/model of gun and the safe have been selected, then BOTH of you have to go for CCW training and range time. There are many cases of trained but unsupportive spouses picking up a weapon and defending the family against harm. Best to know what you are doing than fumbling and shaking around.

The best option for those who can is to wear their gun all the time and lock in a safe near them when sleeping. After a while it becomes second nature -- you get dressed, you put on your gun. You get undressed for a shower/bed, you lock it up in the same place every time. Training and repetition is the key. When something goes bump in the night, you shouldn't have to think about the location of the safe... the combination, where's the safety, how do I load a magazine etc. Your body should do it all automatically while your brain evaluates further noises and indications of the threat.

Even if you end up not purchasing a Glock (glocks are awesome guns, easy to use and maintain, relatively inexpensive for what you get) you AND hubby should log on to glocktalk.com and explore the forums. There are quite a few women on the forum as well, so you'll be able to get both sides and advice from all.

Gun ownership is a wonderful thing, giving you another option to protect your family. Several years ago, the SCOTUS ruled that PDs are under no obligation to protect the citizens, but only to respond to complaints. That ruling placed the onus on each of us to protect ourselves AND the weak around us.

I steal this shamelessly from www.blackfive.net
I Only Hang With Sheepdogs
Posted By Blackfive

The following essay (an extract from the book, 'On Combat') was written by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, U.S. Army (Ret.) Director, Killology Research Group (www.killology.com). Colonel Grossman is a somewhat controversial figure - he authored the book - "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" - a very interesting topic that our politically correct society would rarely discuss. (Thanks to Tom and Mark for sending the article)

On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
By Dave Grossman

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."...

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

*There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.*

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke

*Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.*

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

*If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."*

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks, this is the kind of info I was looking for. I will head over to those forums as well for more info, can't know enough!


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dadinblue* 
The best option for those who can is to wear their gun all the time and lock in a safe near them when sleeping. After a while it becomes second nature -- you get dressed, you put on your gun. You get undressed for a shower/bed, you lock it up in the same place every time. Training and repetition is the key. When something goes bump in the night, you shouldn't have to think about the location of the safe... the combination, where's the safety, how do I load a magazine etc. Your body should do it all automatically while your brain evaluates further noises and indications of the threat.

Why can't you put it under your pillow? Then you could have your hand on it at all times to be _really_ safe.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Why can't you put it under your pillow? Then you could have your hand on it at all times to be _really_ safe.









:


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## IlluminatedAttic (Aug 25, 2006)

We do have a handgun in the house. At the moment we have zero ammo and the gun is locked in case in a box on the highest shelf in the basement. My ds, almost 3, doesn't know it exists and is never in the basement alone. He also doesn't know what a gun is at this point. My dh owned the gun before we met and has agreed that until he purchases a safe that has a fingerprint lock and is mounted on brackets as the pp suggested it will stay where it is or in a safe deposit box somewhere else. (We are about to move and then he will rent a safe at a nearby range and keep it there.) I agree that it is no use having a gun "for protection" if it is not loaded and available, however I also do not believe that children can ever be trusted with access to it. Though dh thought it was secure when I met him, both my then teenage stepchildren knew where it was and where he kept the key he thought he had hidden so well. Both of them had been raised with lots of firearm safety training (dh is retired military) and I did trust them, but kids are kids and at the time I could easily envision my dsd especially showing-off to friends who would not know how to be safe. Currently we only use the gun for target practice at a range and never bring ammunition home. When he is older we will teach ds gun safety and how to shoot, but he will never have access to the weapon on his own - thus my requirement for the fingerprint safe on a mounting bracket.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Why can't you put it under your pillow? Then you could have your hand on it at all times to be _really_ safe.

One thing I love about the MDC boards is that by and large the posters treat each other with respect, even when they hold completely opposite views. It saddens me when I read such disrespectful sarcasm as this. The PP was answering the OP's question with his honest opinion and sited resources for her to gain more information. If you disagree with his position how about posting your own views and resources in a respectful dialogue?

I'm sure you would rather someone respectfully offer you links to anti-vaxing research and invite you to read them to formulate your own opinions rather than state stomething like, "Why don't you just hook your kids up to a permanent IV and dose them with antivirals 24/7 to be _really_ safe."


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## JenMidwife (Oct 4, 2005)

My dad is a hunter & my grandpa is a retired LAPD cop. I grew up in houses where there where guns were always kept in locked cabinets & ammo kept someplace else. I was taken to hunter safety classes & target practice while I was in elementary school, for which I am thankful.

That said, there is no evidence that firearms for personal safety makes you safer & is actually pretty terrifying to me. Did you guys hear about the girl who shot herself with grandma's gun at Sam's Club a couple of weeks ago?


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## LeighB (Jan 17, 2008)

We have guns in the house. They are kept in a locked safe, in the back of our closet, on the shelf. Dh will always have a gun because of work (cop).
I fully intend to have the baby take gun safety courses when she is older. She will also have the opportunity to handle it if she wants. I think the best thing to do with a gun in the house is to make the children aware of the dangers, and all the safety issues involved with it. We also a have a no toy gun rule.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
_baaa_.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 









Something must be wrong with my computer... when I opened this thread to see the replies, a pop-up window said MDC was down for database upgrades.

When it opened, I saw the responses including these two. I wonder what MDC was fixing?

Sure am glad MDC has a database filter.









To the OP, glad you were able to glean something from these posts. If you register on Glocktalk, I suggest you seek out female members to see how they integrate guns into their housholds, what training and safeguards they have in place. PrincessCelica, Azdbltrbl, PatrolMom, Pinky, to name a few.

Message me if you have any questions.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

we have guns. the hand gun is in a small coded safe. not loaded but ammo w it. other guns are in a larger safe and ammo in another place...but for safety, ammon should be accessible.


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

i grew up with an ex-marine (you never quit being a marine) father. he always had guns and never locked any of them up. when i was 7 a friend in my class shot himself with his fahers gun. and died. i already knew gun safety and never played with my dads guns. i looked at them a couple of times when he wasnt home put never took them out of their holster or touched the trigger. he taught me how to shoot them. when i was 13 i started watching my brothers while my dad and step-mom were at work. he taught me how to shoot them shotgun and rifle and how to brace them against the wall to aim at the midsection through the bolted door. he said it would blow through the door and leave door shrapnel through their no longer existing midsection. we lived in the country and my dad was the kind of guy to not trust anybody. i had a healthy respect for guns. i want to own one.
i never bought one and dont let my children near them. i feel i am doing them a disservice by not teaching them about guns. my DS has been taught by his grandpa and i have talked to him because he goes over there. will teach my DD too. my DSDs never go to my dad's house but i should teach them as well. having them in my house makes me nervous because i dont feel that my children would be able to not play with them. even if locked up (althougth i am sure the fingerprint safe is an excellent idea). when my younger brother was a teen (and my dads guns were then locked up) he stole a pistol and got caught with it. how he got it out of the safe is unknown. just my personal story.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

here you go..








:

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GUNS KILL.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dadinblue* 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
baaa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegemamato View Post

Something must be wrong with my computer... when I opened this thread to see the replies, a pop-up window said MDC was down for database upgrades.

When it opened, I saw the responses including these two. I wonder what MDC was fixing?

Sure am glad MDC has a database filter.









To the OP, glad you were able to glean something from these posts. If you register on Glocktalk, I suggest you seek out female members to see how they integrate guns into their housholds, what training and safeguards they have in place. PrincessCelica, Azdbltrbl, PatrolMom, Pinky, to name a few.

Message me if you have any questions.









Noice.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I think it is incredibly irresponsible to have guns in a home where there are small children.


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

I'd like to agree with everything *dadinblue* said and thank him for posting a respectful and informative post.

My DH was a Marine and is now a cop (for the last 7+ years). Needless to say, we have always had guns in the house. We have a large, locked gun safe in our bedroom that is bolted to the floor. It is filled with about multiple loaded guns and we have quite a bit of ammo in the closet. Our children know we have guns, they see guns every day, they know they are _tools_ and they know they will be able to learn more, hands-on, when they get a bit older.

Glocktalk is a great site (DH is a member there) as is www.AR15.com and www.HKpro.com (he is a member at those sites as well).

DH likes Glocks (his duty weapon), but please know that Glocks do not have 'real' safeties. They have trigger safeties (safe-action triggers) that, when enough pressure is applied to the trigger, disables the safety. So, basically, it's like not having a safety. Just something to think about. DH is a BIG H & K fan, but they are very pricey.

Also, I go shooting with DH often so I know what to expect if I ever do need to fire a weapon. Plus, it is good practice to know what to do if the weapon jams. It also makes me more comfortable with the weapon in general. I'll never have the muscle memory my DH does, but I do have a greater feeling of peace knowing I can handle it well.

I can respect the fact that some people don't like guns, but it's not constructive or helpful to come in and make blanket statements when the OP is asking for advice, information and help.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I think it is incredibly irresponsible to have guns in a home where there are small children.

I'd love for you to explain why you think this is so.

Using this webpage for the numbers: http://www.usa.safekids.org/tier3_cd...t_item_id=1131

200 million firearms in the USA, 60% for hunting and 40% for protection.

33% of gun owning families have kids, representing 11 million households or 22 million kids.

So, an estimated 22 _million_ kids live around guns.

In 2001, 72 children ages 14 and under died from unintentional firearm-related injuries. Children ages 10 to 14 accounted for 54 percent of these deaths.

In 2002, more than 800 children ages 14 and under were treated in hospital emergency rooms for unintentional firearm-related injuries; 35 percent of these injuries were severe enough to require hospitalization.

872 kids killed or injured in 2001 and 2002 -- 872 out of an estimated _200 million_. How statistically insignificant is that? 4.36 chances in a million., comparable to getting struck by lightning (1/700,000) but no one says going outside without a lightning rod on your head is irresponsible.

What that tells me is that there are almost 11 million families who have taught their kids properly, whose kids respect and understand the role of a gun in a home setting, know what to do if they come across one.

Legal gun owners are among the most responsible and law-abiding groups in the first-world. It does them a grave disservice to castigate them as "irresponsible". I'm no math or stats whiz, but I think this is pretty cut and dried.

Here are some more activities that carry a greater risk than merely growing up in a gun-owning home, just to put an irational fear in perspective:

Odds of bowling a 300 game: 11,500 to 1 (maybe we should all take up bowling?)

Odds of getting a hole in one: 5,000 to 1 (or golf)

Odds of getting canonized: 20,000,000 to 1 (probably much worse if you aren't Catholic)

Odds of being an astronaut: 13,200,000 to 1

Odds of winning an Olympic medal: 662,000 to 1 (a 40% better chance of winning an Olympic medal than of being hurt or killed by a gun.)

Odds of injury from fireworks: 19,556 to 1 (your child has a 50 times better chance at being injured by fireworks then by a gun)

Odds of injury from shaving: 6,585 to 1 (is anyone trying to ban razors or calling razor-owners irresponsible?)

Odds of injury from using a chain saw: 4,464 to 1 (you have a better chance of being hurt by a chainsaw than by a razor? Wow.)

Odds of injury from mowing the lawn: 3,623 to 1

Odds of fatally slipping in bath or shower: 2,232 to 1

Odds of drowning in a bathtub: 685,000 to 1

Odds of being killed on a 5-mile bus trip: 500,000,000 to 1


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I think it is incredibly irresponsible to have guns in a home where there are small children.


I will not allow my children to sleep in a house where there are guns. I have very strong personal feelings about owning them, I have a friend whose cousin shot himself accidentally, and I would simply be far too worried. It may be a small chance, but it is one I can entirely prevent.

I grew up with the same rule and was not allowed to stay over at a friend's house whose Dad was a police officer.

I don't think that gun owners are irresponsible, I think that young kids are unable to truly understand words like "dead". And to understand the consequences of playing with guns.

DF has joked about getting a gun a few times, but now understands that I will leave him and run like hell to keep my children away from a home with guns.

(Yes I realize that to many of you this seems an over reaction, but it's my over reaction and I'm comfortable with it.)


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

DH is a cop so obviously we have guns in the house. He recently sold his personal gun, as he felt he had no need for it anymore (when he lived in Miami he kept it in the glove compartment or under the front seat of the car). Prior to DD being born he bought a gun safe. The rule is when he comes home the gun comes out of his holster and into the safe and is locked up. I have tried to get the gun out of the holster and I cannot, it takes practice it is so stuck in there (and it cannot be fired while in the holster). He no longer has a rifle for work (there may be a shotgun locked in his patrol vehicle, I am not sure) but I would have required a gun safe for that as well.

When we were dating or engaged I asked his Captain about gun safety and children because he has two grown sons. He told me that when his kids were old enough (maybe five or six) he took them out and showed them how to fire a gun. He had a big bucket full of water and had them fire at it at close range (the bucket shattered of course). Then he told his kids to imagine what would have happened if that had been someone's head. Pretty extreme, but it worked because his kids always respected his guns.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

So, if your hubby wants a handgun, what's the primary purpose? Personal protection? Home protection? Family protection?
I didnt read anything in the OP that suggested that *protection* was the primary purpose her dh had in getting a gun. And yet that is the only options you offered, three different kinds of protection. Everyone (ok, like three people) i know who have guns have them because they like them, they like collecting them, and/or they go to the shooting range, because they think shooting them is fun/enjoyable.

If i felt so unsafe in my home, that i needed to wear a gun at ALL times, from the moment i woke up until bedtime, i think i'd try really hard to move to a safer place (i realize this isnt an option for everyone.)

I dont think having a gun in the home w/ kids is inherently unsafe, esp if the kids know about the guns and have been trained in safety practices...i wouldnt feel comfortable with it. We're (my son who is almost 12 and i) thinking of possibly going to the local shooting range sometime, you can rent guns there to use while target shooting. If i felt my family was in imminent danger of home invasion ALL the time, i think my first line of defense would be to fortify my home, make it safer/less attractive to thiefs and/or predators, before carrying a loaded weapon around in a home with young kids (can you *guarantee* that you wont see that weapon down on the kitchen counter....*ever*?) But if your goal is just to have a hobby gun, i think locking everything up separately is a good choice.

Katherine


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Not sure why the gun should always be loaded? I am disagreeing with this on one principle... it's great that your child might be taught to respect firearms and go through gun safety. But what about if your child has a friend over who hasn't had the same training? Or the same respect? Maybe they are more curious or put peer pressure on your own child to mess around? A loaded gun could be deadly.

If keeping it loaded is to protect the home, then I would like to see some good stats on how many home burglaries have been committed by complete strangers while occupants were home. Seems like much home violence is between people who know each other (spousal). Are the stats in any links above?

DH hunts and has rifles and a hand gun and this is going to be an issue for us. I fully intend my DD to go through gun safety several times as she grows up. Several because I think the lessons would bear to be repeated as kids can forget things like that. DH is having to learn new habits with his guns for sure going from a bachelor to a family in the past 3 years.


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anewmama* 
Not sure why the gun should always be loaded?

What use is an unloaded gun when used for home protection? It's unreasonable to assume you could load a gun while under pressure and in the dark if needed quickly. Keeping it loaded is keeping it ready.

Quote:

But what about if your child has a friend over who hasn't had the same training? Or the same respect? Maybe they are more curious or put peer pressure on your own child to mess around? A loaded gun could be deadly.
And how exactly did the neighbor kid get the combination and/or key to the lock? You are assuming people leave their guns lying around unguarded. I hope this isn't the case.

Quote:

If keeping it loaded is to protect the home, then I would like to see some good stats on how many home burglaries have been committed by complete strangers while occupants were home. Seems like much home violence is between people who know each other (spousal). Are the stats in any links above?
Burglary Facts and Statistics...

* Property crime makes up slightly more than three-quarters of all crime in the United States

* In 2005, law enforcement agencies reported an estimated 2,154,126 burglary offenses-a 0.5-percent increase compared with 2004 data.

* Of all burglary offenses in 2005, 65.8 percent were of residential structures.

* Most (62.4 percent) of residential burglaries in 2005 for which time of occurrence was known took place during the day, between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.

* A burglary takes place in the U.S. every 14.6 seconds according to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program Crime Clock.

* Overall, in about 84% of all burglaries, the offender gained entry into the victim's residence or other building on the property.

Source: FBI Uniform Crime Report 2005

As for the relationships of victim/criminal, I couldn't find any. DH said from his experience, it usually is someone who knows the resident, but he said most of the burglaries he's seen are on drug houses and not 'normal' residents.

I also found that most burgs happen between 9am-5pm, when most are at work. So, for me, a 100 lb. SAHM, what is my defense between myself and my kids and an attacker, who may be armed?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane*
If i felt so unsafe in my home, that i needed to wear a gun at ALL times, from the moment i woke up until bedtime, i think i'd try really hard to move to a safer place (i realize this isnt an option for everyone.)

I may be wrong and may have missed something, but I don't think anyone said anything about wearing their gun around the house at all times. DH carries his gun everywhere we go (concealed) and carries it on duty, but he doesn't wear it around the house (unless we've just gotten back form going somewhere). When home, it's kept in the safe. We also live in an extremely safe town, which is why we moved here. Crime is very rare, and when there is 'crime', it's usually very tame. In fact, the deputies who work this area had to be invol'd (involuntary duty) here because it is so boring and nobody wanted it. Still, you *never* know.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

What use is an unloaded gun when used for home protection? It's unreasonable to assume you could load a gun while under pressure and in the dark if needed quickly. Keeping it loaded is keeping it ready.
It doesnt sound very safe to be using a gun, in a home with young children, while "under pressure and in the dark"....in fact, it sounds exactly like a recipe for an unintentional shooting. I wonder how many kids or spouses have almost (or actually) gotten shot because a family member thought they were an intruder?

If you think someone is in your house, for pete's sake, call 911, go to your kids' room, and lock the door.

How do you know, if someone comes in, that there is only one? How do you know, when you are blindly pointing your weapon at an intruder *in the dark*, that won't cause a co-intruder to escalate to the next level (killing you, your spouse, or your kids.)

Just throwing scenarios out there.

Katherine


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
It doesnt sound very safe to be using a gun, in a home with young children, while "under pressure and in the dark"....in fact, it sounds exactly like a recipe for an unintentional shooting. I wonder how many kids or spouses have almost (or actually) gotten shot because a family member thought they were an intruder?

No, it only sounds unsafe if you aren't able to use the handguns properly, have not had proper training and, therefore, shouldn't be handling a weapon in the first place. It's all about knowledge.

Quote:

If you think someone is in your house, for pete's sake, call 911, go to your kids' room, and lock the door.
I'd rather be a bit more pro-active than huddling defenseless while trying to 'protect' my children. Call 911 - And wait until a cop makes it to your house, that is a lot of precious time. Go to my kids' room - Why? Is there a specific strategic reason for that, or just to draw the intruders to my children? Lock the door - Because a flimsy inside door lock is going to deter someone?

Quote:

How do you know, if someone comes in, that there is only one?
You don't. The point is what?

Quote:

How do you know, when you are blindly pointing your weapon at an intruder *in the dark*, that won't cause a co-intruder to escalate to the next level (killing you, your spouse, or your kids.)
If someone is going to be blindly pointing weapons at every bump in the night, they shouldn't have the weapons in the first place. There are some people who actually have training, knowledge and experience when it comes to firearms, I wish they all did. There are also rules of engagement - not just randomly shooting someone because they are in your home, but in order to protect yourself, or your family, if you feel your life is in danger. There are things I would do first, but it is a last and most severe option, and it is there if needed.

Plus, you don't point your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot. You don't walk around with the muzzle up looking for trouble. So, by that standard, your gun won't be pointed at anyone until you take action.

I completely understand all of your questions. I just get a bit defensive as a responsible and knowledgeable gun owner when it comes to these subjects. I know there are some out there who give us a bad name because of their lack of sense. I hope I don't come across as snooty.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i have also read that most intruders will flee if they think/know the owners are armed. I have always been taught to express that fact before ever shooting (i have never been in that situation thank goodness but i would like to believe at least some intruders would flee if faced w/ the prospect of getting shot). If they dont flee after the warning, then i think i would have much more to fear than a simply burglary.


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
What use is an unloaded gun when used for home protection? It's unreasonable to assume you could load a gun while under pressure and in the dark if needed quickly. Keeping it loaded is keeping it ready.

What use is it to lock it up to begin with if it is for protection? How reasonable is it to assume under pressure you are going to be able to turn that safe correctly? Seems faster to throw a bullet in a gun then turn left 2 times, turn right one, turn left one and stop at a number. Probably in the dark with a flashlight. Don't see how that is going to happen any quicker than loading it.


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
* Most (62.4 percent) of residential burglaries in 2005 for which time of occurrence was known took place during the day, between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.

* A burglary takes place in the U.S. every 14.6 seconds according to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program Crime Clock.

* Overall, in about 84% of all burglaries, the offender gained entry into the victim's residence or other building on the property.

...

I also found that most burgs happen between 9am-5pm, when most are at work. So, for me, a 100 lb. SAHM, what is my defense between myself and my kids and an attacker, who may be armed?



Well, you need stats on how many burglaries DO occur when residents are home between 6-6. Without them, your SAHM scenario might not be a high risk as you present. Why? Because I bet that many of those burglaries are situations where the residence has been cased. If you are a SAHM, it might be safe to assume that the burglars KNOW that the residence is not empty. I am not willing to assume that just because you are a SAHM mom with kids that you are necessarily any more at risk than any stay at home person who has a visible home presence in the daytime.


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
I may be wrong and may have missed something, but I don't think anyone said anything about wearing their gun around the house at all times.

No, but the original poster who made this point didn't quite clarify WHERE that loaded gun was going to live.

I just know that I find myself putting weird things in weird places. LIke the phone in the fridge. I usually catch myself. It's safe to assume that someone could accidentally leave a loaded gun around. Oops, had to go to the bathroom for that one second before locking the gun up and JOhnny came into the room in my absence.... Who knows.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Firearms are the s*econd-leading cause of death* (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people 19 and under in the U.S.

The rate of firearm death of under 14-years-old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

The risk of homicide in the home is *three times greater* in households with guns.

The risk of suicide is *five times greater* in households with guns.

Guns are the weapon of choice for troubled individuals who commit suicide. In 2004, firearms were used in 16,750 suicide deaths in America. Among young people under 20, more than two young lives were lost daily to firearm-related suicides.

Due to firearm suicides, there are more than twice as many suicide victims in states with high household firearm ownership

http://www.bradycampaign.org/issues/


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Many gun ranges have on-site storage. You can buy a gun, store it there, and drive there to shoot it. That compromise allows him to own his gun and use it whenever he wants, but allows you to have a safe, gun-free house.

If it is for "home defense" well then you can't really come to a compromise when somebody is being irrational.


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

What an interesting thread. I'm glad that, for the most part, it has stayed respectful and informative.

I'm married to a law enforcement officer, so we have guns. However, I owned a gun before I even met my dh. I enjoy shooting.

I am related to four people killed by guns. My aunt was an LAPD officer involved in a fatal shooting. I am an emergency nurse who grew up in Flint, MI and trained in Detroit; I spent the first few years of my career working the night shift in the ER at Detroit Receiving Hospital. I am very well aware of the damage that guns can do, let's just say.

However, I think the thing to remember is that guns can be used responsibly by responsible people. At the risk of being thrown off MDC, I'm going to admit that they can be a lot of fun.







The thing is to keep them away from children and to teach your children what kind of tool they are _when they are old enough to understand_. Until my kids are, the guns are in the safe. Only my dh and I know the combination - it's not even written down - and when they are old enough to understand all of the facets of gun use and ownership, then we will teach them how to use guns as a matter of fact skill with matter of fact tools. FTR, I enjoy target shooting -- I don't typically endorse carrying for personal protection, for many reasons, most of them related to things I've seen as an ER nurse -- and I never endorse keeping a loaded gun in the house, out of a locked safe, in any home where children live or visit due to the potential for accidental shootings.

My advice? Get the biggest and strongest safe you can, even if it's only for one gun. Safety classes are offered at your local ranges, typically, and I think they are a really great idea.

And I guess as long as I'm spouting off advice here? We own a few different guns, but I really enjoy my .22 Browning handgun for target shooting. Lightweight, excellent for marksmanship skills, and you can afford to shoot all day.


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
Many gun ranges have on-site storage. You can buy a gun, store it there, and drive there to shoot it. That compromise allows him to own his gun and use it whenever he wants, but allows you to have a safe, gun-free house.

I also meant to add that this is a very good idea, too, especially if you do not want guns in your home.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Considering what Gavin DeBecker has said about allowing one's children in the homes of others with guns I find it to be incredibly ironic that he was quoted in the Sheepdogs essay.

To quote him from this article in Guns Magazine:

""I for one do not accept the avoidable risk posed by your products, products of gun manufacturers. As a potential victim, I do not sign onto any implied agreement with Colt, Smith & Wesson or Ruger, and I hold you entirely accountable for your failure to build in child-safe and other locking features that would clearly and predictably reduce firearms deaths."

In any case I was going to recommend you read Protecting the Gift. Both for the section about kids and guns, but also for the thinking about how we assess threat and danger (if indeed the reason is home defense) and how it is perhaps easier to focus on "extreme stranger danger" than to look at leading causes of actual death in say, our children.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

My best friend's first husband kept a gun, a shot gun actually, in the house. One night as they were naked in the living room watching movies







, two men entered their home through the garage (they lifted up the garage door), went to the bedroom and found the shot gun, and started towards the living room. Her husband heard something, went downt the hall towards the bedroom and surprised the two guys who bolted and ran. It's a great thing he surprised them in the hall, who knew what they would have done when getting to the living room with his own gun.

I would never have a gun in my home, and this story reinforces it for me.


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## IlluminatedAttic (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
My best friend's first husband kept a gun, a shot gun actually, in the house. One night as they were naked in the living room watching movies







, two men entered their home through the garage (they lifted up the garage door), went to the bedroom and found the shot gun, and started towards the living room. Her husband heard something, went downt the hall towards the bedroom and surprised the two guys who bolted and ran. It's a great thing he surprised them in the hall, who knew what they would have done when getting to the living room with his own gun.

I would never have a gun in my home, and this story reinforces it for me.

Again, in this story, the gun was NOT locked in a safe. Had it been properly locked in a mounted safe these intruders would not have been able to access it.

Quote:

I just know that I find myself putting weird things in weird places. LIke the phone in the fridge. I usually catch myself. It's safe to assume that someone could accidentally leave a loaded gun around. Oops, had to go to the bathroom for that one second before locking the gun up and JOhnny came into the room in my absence.... Who knows.
I'm glad you know yourself well enough to realize that you would not be a responsible gun owner. I'm not trying to be snarky, some people just aren't. This is why I will fully question the parents of my child's friends before I let him play 'unsupervised' in another's home even though I support gun ownership. However, I don't believe your example is appropriate. A cell phone is not a good analogy for a gun. What about a hot iron that you had been using? Would you leave that turned on and sitting plugged-in on top of the wobbly ironing board when you run to the bathroom? What about a pan frying bacon on the stove? What about a fireplace/woodstove with no guard and the screen open?

A responsible gun owner, which the OP seems she wants to be, treats a firearm as exactly what it is, a deadly weapon. And NO, we would never accidentally put it in the fridge or leave it on the counter. I fully accept that there are those that would though, which is why I advocate strong firearm education as well as safes.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IlluminatedAttic* 
However, I don't believe your example is appropriate. A cell phone is not a good analogy for a gun. What about a hot iron that you had been using? Would you leave that turned on and sitting plugged-in on top of the wobbly ironing board when you run to the bathroom? What about a pan frying bacon on the stove? What about a fireplace/woodstove with no guard and the screen open?
.


Ok, but some of the advice given in this thread, was that the most effective way to own a gun, was to wear it *at all times* , literally unless you are sleeping, to have the gun strapped to you. And i think in that way, it because less like a hot iron, and more like your glasses. Yes, you usually have your glasses on your face, yes they are like second nature, you put them on in the morning and take them off at night, but can you really say there has never ever been ONE time where you took them off, and forgot to put them on again (got distracted or whatever)...i just honestly dont see how the recommendation for a stay at home mom to carry a gun on her person at all times, while having small children in the home (children she may be breastfeeding, laying down with to get them to go to sleep, sitting on the floor with to play with toys, bathing, etc....all while carrying a gun?) as being the safest possible recommendation. I dont think the OP will actually *follow* that advice (to carry a gun around instead of keeping it safely locked up)....i was just surprised to see it.

Katherine


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IlluminatedAttic* 
I'm glad you know yourself well enough to realize that you would not be a responsible gun owner. I'm not trying to be snarky, some people just aren't. ... However, I don't believe your example is appropriate. A cell phone is not a good analogy for a gun. What about a hot iron that you had been using? Would you leave that turned on and sitting plugged-in on top of the wobbly ironing board when you run to the bathroom? What about a pan frying bacon on the stove? What about a fireplace/woodstove with no guard and the screen open?

But you are being snarky.

My point was directly addressed at leaving a loaded gun in a house. You don't DIE from a hot iron. And for the most part, you don't die as far as I know from even a hot grease burn in proportion to the deaths by guns. And you don't die from a woodstove burn. YOU CAN DIE from a gun shot wound.

My point is not that _I_ am irresponsible and therefore recognize I shouldn't keep a loaded gun around but that ALL people have moments of memory lapse or distraction. You may be the one perfect exception to that I guess.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
It doesnt sound very safe to be using a gun, in a home with young children, while "under pressure and in the dark"....in fact, it sounds exactly like a recipe for an unintentional shooting. I wonder how many kids or spouses have almost (or actually) gotten shot because a family member thought they were an intruder?

This has happened. But not as often as you might think. When it does, the media broadcasts it all over the world. But when a home owner successfully defends their home from intruders, CNN ignores it. People who have killed houseguests or visitors are, by and large, untrained and unskilled gun-owners. They never should have owned a gun, much less been so fearful as to use it in that scenario.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
If you think someone is in your house, for pete's sake, call 911, go to your kids' room, and lock the door.

Then then what? Wait for the BG to find you, terrorize and victimize you (mentally, sexually and/or physically - all while your kids watch) and then leave your corpse in the room? That does happen, it's not just on TV (although TV and video games planted the idea-seed in the BG's head). All of those things are good ideas: Call 911 and get them started towards you. You might wait 5-10min for service, more if you are rural. Go to your kid's rooms and get them up, dragging them out of bed by force. Most kid's bedroom aren't reinforced, so go to the safest room on that floor in your house: the one with the strongest door, improved hinges. Some people havebuilt one for this purpose and call this a "safe-room". Then you wait for the police.

But what if the BG isn't after your DVD player or your wristwatch. What if the BG is after you? Now he's kicking the door down and coming after you -- all you've done is delay him/them. Now the BGs are there, with you. What's your last line of defence?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
How do you know, if someone comes in, that there is only one?

You don't. Which is why you train and are prepared for multiple intruders.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
How do you know, when you are blindly pointing your weapon at an intruder *in the dark*, that won't cause a co-intruder to escalate to the next level (killing you, your spouse, or your kids.)

Again, training will teach you what to do in this scenario. A home defense gun should have a light mounted on it that comes on when you either flick the switch or squeeze the grips, so you aren't "blindly pointing" the gun anywhere. With that, and specific training scenarios that teach you how to work the light, gun and the features of your home to your advantage, you won't shoot anyone who doesn't deserve it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Just throwing scenarios out there.

And you're welcome to do that - but remember, the human mind can always come up with some obscure "what-if" situation. This is the basic situation: There are people in this country who seek to do harm to others, for their own benefit and satisfaction, out of a mental compulsion to harm others or just for fun cause they were bored. These BGs select their victims based on phycial features and characteristics: hair and skin colour, signs of obvious wealth or sexuality, obvious weakness or inattention. Many of these things you can't or wish not to control..., but you can defend yourself, your belongings and your loved ones. If you make the choice to defend _yourself_ instead of relying on others to do your defending, then you also have a responsibility to get training, train with your partner (so that each of you know what the other's role and responsibilities are during an incident) and then practice at home. We all practice fire drills, why not practice a BG-drill?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
What use is an unloaded gun when used for home protection? It's unreasonable to assume you could load a gun while under pressure and in the dark if needed quickly. Keeping it loaded is keeping it ready.

Exactly. An unassembled meal is just stuff, uselss for dinner. Oil and an oil filter doesn't give your car an oil change, you have to assemble the parts. And while it's fine to say that you can aseemble the parts and then take on an intruder, realistically you won't have time. If the door of the house gets kicked in, you will rise to meet the threat face-to-face, not run to the bedroom, open the safe (can you remember the sequence or combination under stress? Better practice that too), load the magazine, rack the slide then engage the BG. I would bet that's the better part of a minute there. Now if you eliminate the magazine load and slide rack, you shave 30%-40 of the minute.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
And how exactly did the neighbor kid get the combination and/or key to the lock? You are assuming people leave their guns lying around unguarded. I hope this isn't the case.

Again, this is sadly often the case, but is another example of irresponsible gun owners. RESPONSIBLE gun owners don't leave their gun out, ever. They don't wave them around in the dark, they don't point them as a threat to others.

It's all in the training.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
I also found that most burgs happen between 9am-5pm, when most are at work. So, for me, a 100 lb. SAHM, what is my defense between myself and my kids and an attacker, who may be armed?

Running and cowering in a closet with your children isn't the answer, so defending yourself must be. With your size and stature, you won't be able to take on a larger opponent without a distinct advantage - firepower.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
I may be wrong and may have missed something, but I don't think anyone said anything about wearing their gun around the house at all times.

I mentioned wearing the gun as a way to have it acceible all the time but out of kid's reach. If you don't want it locked up, you have to wear it. That's also the best way to make sure that the nosey neighbourhood kid doesn't break into your safe and get it.



SAHDS said:


> DH carries his gun everywhere we go (concealed) and carries it on duty, but he doesn't wear it around the house (unless we've just gotten back form going somewhere). That's because your husband is a sheepdog, like many others in the country, which is why he's in the profession he's in.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

So far she's received some stats and idea from one side of the argument, and a bunch of what-ifs and knee-jerk reaction from the other.
I think thats an really unfair assessment. "What ifs"....you mean like the constant fear mongering "what ifs" of intruders knocking down doors of poor SAHMs, giving them less than thirty seconds to respond? "Knee jerk reaction"...i think living one's life as if something bad might happen every.single.second. of the day is pretty knee jerk. I could not live my life like that. I find the examples of "sheep" and "wolves" to be highly insulting. The picture painted is that there are just some people smart enough to take the safety of their family into their own hands, and then the rest of us ignorant folk relying on such things as 911 and the police to help. Sitting ducks, right?

I live in a community in which people never get killed. (Ok, maybe two people in twenty years or something, by people known to them, in a domestic violence type situation)....VERY occasionally a rape will be reported. People get stuff stolen out of their garages alot. Probably because they are unlocked. To own guns here, out of a feeling of self defense, (and esp to do something like wear one all the time) is absolutely overkill. I can *guarantee* that if i called the police and said there was an intruder in my home, four or five cop cars would be in front of my home in minutes. Heck, two or three cars show up when someone is pulled over for a traffic violation.

Polly Klaas was kidnapped out of her bedroom. So was that harp playing girl. Other kids are kidnapped from their front yards. A woman a few cities over was raped at (unloaded)gunpoint while getting out of her car at her apt complex at night. Just down the road in Detroit, man was shot while holding a baby, coming out of a store, because he refused to hand over his glasses to some robber. Not all situations happen under your perfect scenario of being at home near your gun. And freaky things (people busting in your home in mere seconds intending not on robbing you, but on killing or torturing you) DO happen, we hear that on the news, its certainly sensational...but are the vast majority of people at risk of something like that happening? No, i dont believe they are. I think you can give yourself an inflated sense of safety by feeling like you are a "sheepdog" (







) but that doesnt make you immune to tragedy.

I think its kinda funny though, to accuse the Brady foundation or gavin debecker for having certain viewpoints to further their own agenda or to make a profit....as if the gun lobbyists/manufacturers dont have a vested interest in protecting our so called 2nd Amendment rights? Do you not think the makers of your guns (that generally arent cheap, btw) benefit from making you feel like you are in soooo much danger in your every day life that you are failing your family by not being prepared to protect them?

For every anecdote about a family being saved (or not) from an intruder due to having a gun in the home, i'm sure there is an anecdote about a teen blowing his brother's head off. I bet *neither* story provides an accurate depiction of reality, and i bet in both situations those involved might have wished they'd made different choices.

Katherine


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

as far as the time it takes to open a safe, i can attest to the fact that from time of "loud unexplained sound" to "wake up get out of bed, key in code on locked safe and open bedroom door" takes about 30 seconds, if that (i wasnt timing it).

thats a pretty quick response in my mind....and takes into account all factors re: safety. no one can guess our combo on the safe...its just unreasonable to think they will (as in kids sitting there all day putting in thousands of combos in the hopes of opening it up).

p.s. luckily "loud unexplained sound" disappeared.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

Well, as this thread keeps going circular, I don't think there's any point in continuing -- the stats speak for themselves and if people wish to continue relying on others for their safety that's their business. It's job security for the sheepdogs.

Being prepared for things that might happen isn't knee-jerk, it's smart. We have insurance against loss and accidents, we have aplan for if a child gets lost or the dog runs away, why is planning for how to defend against an intruder castigated?

I am glad that PP lives in a safe community where 5 cop cars will show up if she calls in a burglary report. But what if she can't call in? How many cop cars will show up then? Or what if she's the 3rd person to call in a major incident? Does her town have 15 cop cars that roar around 5 at a time to incidents? What if all 5 cars are on the other side of town when she calls?

BTW, how can QueenJane "guarantee" that 4 or 5 police cars would be out front of her home within minutes of a call? Has this ever been tested? Does her Police department state this level of service in writing?

Just because this is how the PP views it doesn't mean it is, nor does it mean the rest of America has anywhere NEAR the same level of service. Police cars double up on traffic stops because that's where the most cops are killed. I would EXPECT to see two officers out at a traffic stop.

cars would be in front of my home in minutes. Heck, two or three cars show up when someone is pulled over for a traffic violation.

Quote:

Polly Klaas was kidnapped out of her bedroom. So was that harp playing girl. Other kids are kidnapped from their front yards. A woman a few cities over was raped at (unloaded)gunpoint while getting out of her car at her apt complex at night. Just down the road in Detroit, man was shot while holding a baby, coming out of a store, because he refused to hand over his glasses to some robber. Not all situations happen under your perfect scenario of being at home near your gun.
That's right -- so be prepared in case it does happen. Carry your gun if you want to. Harden your house with better doors and locking windows, an alarm so that if some freak DOES try and get in, you'll know and be able to defend your Polly Klass or your harp-playing girl. What if the woman who was raped had had a gun? Perhaps there'd be a dead rapist and she wouldn't be going through years of rape counselling. And the sunglasses thing... sometimes you can't prepare, but situational awareness and recognition of the threat might have kept him out of the situation.

Just because freaky things happen to other people and that we hear about it on the news doesn't mean we shouldn't all be ready to deal with it if it happens to us. It doesn't mean that our house isn't being cased by some freak-job intent on hurting me and my family. Conversly, it doesn't mean that my house IS being cased, but I would rather be alert and prepared than caught by surprise.

Being prepared doesn't make anyone "immune", but I'll be better prepared than someone who hasn't given any thought to any eventualities at all.

GdB charges hundreds of dollars per hour for his assessments and for his services. The Brady Campaign seeks to have the government violate your Second Ammendment rights. I pay a dealer less than $600 for a gun that is shipped here from Austria. I doubt Glock makes more than $150 on the entire deal. Less than 1/4 of GdB's initial consult fee. Who's making the money and trampling the Constitution?

Americans have a right to bear arms and a right to protect themselves. They also have the right to choose NOT to do either, instead to rely on others to do it for them.

But it's unfair to look down on legal, responsibly upstanding citizens simply because there's a gun in their home.


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## anewmama (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dadinblue* 
Meow, no need to be catty. The point we're trying to make is that with proper training, experience, guidelines to follow and repetition, mistakes are minimized or eliminated. Do you leave butcher knives in weird places too? Probably not. How about lighters, lawn-mower gas and other hazardous things? Not likely. When things are truly important (dangerous, expensive etc) we are more careful with them.

Well, I would respond more but your MEOW comment is too insulting.

Except to say, how many "died from butcher knife" wound dealths are there?

How many "ran over by lawn-mover" deaths are there?

You have your slant and are exemplary with your gun ownership. Guess you are a cop by your name. But the STATS on what is happening in homes on an everyday basis speak otherwise to just how safe guns can be and the reality that people just aren't getting the training on their safe use.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dadinblue* 
BTW, how can PassionateWriter "guarantee" that 4 or 5 police cars would be out front of her home within minutes of a call? Has this ever been tested? Does her Police department state this level of service in writing?


you may have me confused with someone else. we live in a small town with 6-10 officers TOTAL. I dont really rely on them and do not believe they would be at my house w/in minutes of a call. I kind of know this b/c my 2 yo is fond of dialing 911.







On several occassions, its been several minutes before the police returned the call and they NEVER just sent someone out.


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## dadinblue (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
you may have me confused with someone else. we live in a small town with 6-19 officers TOTAL. I dont really rely on them and do not believe they would be at my house w/in minutes of a call. I kind of know this b/c my 2 yo is fond of dialing 911.







On several occassions, its been several minutes before the police returned the call and they NEVER just sent someone out.


Your'e right, sorry about that. I was referring to a comment from QueenJane but put your name in. Corrected in the original. My apologies.

Here's a current news report about a home invasion with two women and a kid at home.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/t...13362&catid=15

Click on the date under the word VIDEO in the top right hand corner.
_The thugs got away with the guns that the family keeps for protection that were in the safe._ Wow, how safe were they?

Imagine how different it could have been -- Shelita (the mother) was in the bathroom when the BGs kicked in the door. Had she been armed, she would have been able to engage them as they terrorized her mother and the baby. Instead, they dragged her around the house by her hair and stole their valuables.

Yep, I am convinced -- guns belong in safes at all times. (no not really)


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

But it's unfair to look down on legal, responsibly upstanding citizens simply because there's a gun in their home.
I dont think anyone is "looking down" on anyone who owns guns. I think where some of us are "arguing" is the recommendation that one should carry a loaded gun on one's person at all times, and to only lock up loaded weapons, to be truly safe, and that everyone else is just a victim waiting to happen.

And i still maintain that separating people into "sheepdogs" and "sheep" is insulting. Make your choices for your family, fine, but you dont need to denigrate mine. I'm not saying you *shouldnt* own a gun....own a hundred, i dont care....but you seem to be insisting that unless one has a loaded weapon in their home, they are being unsafe. That's not cool.

I guess i'm just surprised that people who say they actually (gasp) hope and expect the police to help in an emergency (that is, yknow, their JOB), rather than "take it into their own hands" are being painted like idiots, silly me, thinking that i should call 911 rather than shoot an intruder.

There really is room for both. If you want to have a loaded gun in a home w/ young children, have at it. Others can make a different choice, and still care just as much about the safety of their family, still can be educated in all the "stats" you care to print, etc. Your way isnt the ONLY safe way. Different strokes and all that.

katherine


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Got an AK-47, well you know it makes me feel all right
Got an Uzi by my pillow, helps me sleep a little better at night
There's no feeling any greater
Than to shoot first and ask questions later
Now I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Well you can't take my guns away, I got a
Constitutional right
Yeah, I gotta be ready if the commies attack us tonight
I'll blow their brains out with my Smith and Wesson
That out to teach 'em all a darn good lesson
Now I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Oh yeah, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh baby, I'm) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh, I'm so) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Better watch out, punk, or I'm gonna have
To blow you away

Oh, I accidentally shot Daddy last night in the den
I mistook him in the dark for a drug-crazed Nazi again
Now why'd you have to get so mad?
It's just a lousy flesh wound, Dad
You know I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Oh, I still haven't figured out the safety on my rifle yet
Little Fluffy took a round, better take him to the vet
I filled that kitty cat so full of lead
We'll have to use him for a pencil instead
Well, I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Oh yeah, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh baby, I'm) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh, I'm so) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Better watch out, punk, or I'm gonna have
To blow you away

Come on and grab your ammo
What have you got to lose?
We'll all get liquored up
And shoot at anything that moves

Got a brand new semi-automatic weapon with a laser sight
Oh, I'm prayin' somebody tries to break in here tonight
I always keep a Magnum in my trunk
You better ask yourself, do you feel lucky, punk?
Because I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Oh yeah, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh baby, I'm) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
(Oh, I'm so) trigger, trigger happy
Yes, I'm trigger, trigger happy
Better watch out, punk, or I'm gonna have
To blow you away


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Is he looking it for security or does he want to do target practice type things as a sport?

I wouldn't want to keep one for security because I feel it's not helpful and too dangerous with kids around.

If he wants it for sport shooting, then I'd do a safe and trigger locks with attention to security of the keys.

My DH hunts and has various guns, and I'm comfortable with them in our home.

I think if he wants security -- I'd try to talk him into better door locks and a security system, fireproof safes for your valuables, a bank security deposit box, etc. etc etc.

Good luck!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dadinblue* 
Americans have a right to bear arms and a right to protect themselves. They also have the right to choose NOT to do either, instead to rely on others to do it for them.

I find the "relying on others to do it for them" to be a bit arrogant. Just because our family does not own or intend to use a handgun for self-protection does not mean that we are unduly burdening anyone else. We assess our risk and feel we do not need guns for protection in our specific circumstances. If our risk were different, we may choose to own guns or increase our security via other means.

I do figure police into my risk assessment, but police are not there just for my personal safety, and they serve many valuable functions in our society. Helping our family if we call in an emergency is part of the job, but it's not like I'm personally making other people do "my dirty work" for me or that I'm in any way slacking off on my responsibilities.


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