# Is 'holding while crying' same as 'CIO'?



## Kishor'sMami (May 28, 2002)

Recently, my 5 month dear ds only cries and cries when he's super tired and needs 2 sleep. he cries through everything; white noise, shower running, walking, rocking, bouncing, jiggling, treadmill, car ride, sling etc. ultimately something ends up putting him to sleep. but it usually takes from 1-3 hrs of this. by that time i am totally worn out, physically and mentally.

the only thing that stops him if i fully wake him up and give him more stimulation. but that only makes it that much harder later on to sleep (naps and nighttime).

my question is; do i just hold him and let him cry with me until he falls asleep? or is that just the same as CIO? i have tried this twice now... he just screamed and screamed. i couldn't bear the poor little guy... is this just me? or will it damage him some way later on?

i know this wont last and i keep trying to remember that. but its heartbreaking.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

No, it is most DEFINITELY not the same as cio! As you can guess, I said no. If you have tried nursing/bottlefeeding, diaper change, rock, warm/cold etc and the baby is still upset, the only thing left to do is just hold it and let it cry. We feel better as adults when someone just holds us as we cry even if they can't help our situation, right? I think there is a big difference between comforting your child in your arms as he or she lets out their emotions and letting them scream alone in a crib to teach them some twisted form of "independence."


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## NewMa (May 2, 2002)

i am strongly of the opinion that the two are completely different.

CIO= condeming a baby in a time of real emotional need to isolation.

Holding babe as babe cries= offering your support and comfort through the storm, even if you are incapable of stopping it.

((Kishor's Mami,)) I am sending you some hugs as I can hear the frustration in your post. Keep holding your little guy; I'm sure your arms are a comfort to him even if he's in tears. When my little girl was brand-new, we went through nightly routines very similar in nature to what you are describing: the rocking, the white noise, etc. We probably wound up exhausting ourselves even further than we already were exhausted and DD fell asleep all in her own good time.


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## grumo (Dec 12, 2001)

I voted

No, not the same at all, you're letting baby communicate and let off steam.

At the same time, I suggest reading Tears and Tantrums by Aletha Solter. I haven't gotten to this one myself, but I have read Aware Baby. A friend has read both and said that Tears and Tantrums covers a lot of the same stuff, but isn't quite as dogmatic. I suggest reading one of them to at least make you comfortable with the theory. Essentially, the belief is that some (most she suggests) babies need to release past hurts, whether they be a stressful birth experience, a bonk on the head earlier in the day, or the frustrations associated with learning a new skill. The way they do that is by crying. According to Solter, if you let a baby cry until he is done (ALL crying must be done only after a check of all possible needs, and should only be done in arms), he will have released these hurts and will be able to move forward. She talks about the difference in composition between stress tears and wash out the eye tears and how many adults who are allowed to cry feel better afterwards. Babies are supposed to be clear eyed and either happy and ready to play or ready to fall asleep easily (they do not cry themselves to sleep).

I don't feel that I have ever been able to let my dd cry until she was completely done. I've been able to let her go for 10-15 minutes when she would take a good sized break in crying to check things out. Both times I let her cry I took advantage of the break and stuffed a breast in her face when I thought she might be about to start up again. It is really very hard to allow your baby to cry like that. But especially if you are unable to console your child and he wants to cry (and you've addressed all needs) Solter probably got the right idea.

Good Luck, I know several other people on these boards have had more experience and some success with this method. I suggest doing a search of "Aware Baby" and of "Solter"


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## Wildflower (Nov 25, 2001)

I actually just started a thread in Parenting Issues to talk about the Aware Baby methods...I just got into them in the past few months, and both intuitively and from seeing how it benefits dd I feel that offering a loving supportive place for our babies to just let it all go is a beautiful thing...It is sometimes scary to ley her cry like that, feels so out of control, breaks my heart that I can't make it all okay for dd...But then the thing is, the release of the cry DOES eventually make things right inside dd again...Last night after a wearing day of trying to walk and taking spills, dd screamed on my lap for 20 mins while I gently rubbed her back and encouraged her to share her feelings with mommy, gradually calmed, and then started cooing and giggling...it felt so fulfilling to have been able to deeply be there for her. The Aware Baby wedsite has greatarticles you might want to check out. Hugs to you!


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## AmyG (Jan 30, 2002)

I agree that letting a baby cry in your arms can be very loving and understanding. Sometimes we all just need to cry. For an infant, that happens more often since they can't express themselves any other way. And, even though I don't think crying is a good lung exercise like some CIO advocates say it is, I do think it's a good form of exercise for baby's muscles.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

But what is the alternative? Doesn't this poll assume that there is another option - don't let them cry at all? And how realistic is that? Seems to me that from everything I've learned, sometimes baby cries and we don't know why. And even the best AP parent can try BF-ing and slinging and holding and still baby will cry, so if anybody says that even holding the child while they are crying is the same as CIO I'd like to know what the alternative is?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Just offering my words of support here too. I've been there, still am at times. Holding your baby is giving him the knowledge that he's loved and he's cared for.

When Abi was about 15 mos. old we realized it was time for a bedtime, for our sake. She was staying up until 11 PM some nights and dh wakes up at 4 AM so that was just not working. We tried the bath/book/bed routine and it didn't really work. As soon as we turned out the light she screamed until she was removed from the bedroom. Finally decided to do a loving CIO with one of us in the bed with her, but lights out and no music or talking. She screamed hard the first couple of nights for about 15 minutes but we felt we had to let her know that lights out means bedtime. We felt she was old enough to learn this and we were NOT leaving her alone. Most of the time she was too angry to want to be held but we never left her. Finally after about a week she accepted her bedtime. Now she goes down at around 9PM with one of us lying next to her, and will lie down without a fuss and go to sleep within minutes.

One suggestion: I don't advocate putting a child in front of TV all day but the Baby Mozart video has been worth its weight in gold at our house. We bought it out of desperation when she was 2 mos. old and had colic after she reacted so well to it at a friend's house. When she got overly tired or cranky I would pop it in for 15 minutes and she would calm down and most of the time go to sleep. Also worked great to keep her busy when I was pumping in the early months. We still use that video about once a week and she's 18 mos. old.

Darshani


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

I said "other" based on your poll but not on your example. Based on your example, I would have said a resounding "no," it is not the same. You have tried everything, you are in tune with what baby's needs and wants, and you have come to the point where you can only hold him while he cries. That is totally understandable. Babies cry -- even attached babies. I wish I had learned that lesson earlier with my first dd.

The reason I said "other" though is that I have sometimes seen people just hold their baby while it's crying when they haven't tried other options. Sometimes they actually look kind of wooden there, holding their baby like an object. That's sad.

What you are doing, however, is wonderful. He is lucky to have such a wonderful, caring mother.


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

I agree - not the same at all!!! I think by holding you are really sending the message, "I love you even when you are hurting/feeling sad/can't sleep" - you are actively accepting your child - cio is rejecting your child. It is hard to do though - it can hurt so to hear them cry!! I just want to refer you to the chapter on crying in Natural Family Living - it's the best stuff about crying I've read. For some reason I had the idea that in attached cultures children never cry (anthropological observations in tribal cultures or something where babies are always held and fed on demand). The chapter points out that this IS true - during the day. In the evening it's expected that babies will cry because that's the only way they can deal with feelings. Good luck to you!


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## Kishor'sMami (May 28, 2002)

thank you moms so much...

well he's cried today twice at nap times. i find now that when i'm putting him to sleep, i tense up soo much, just waiting for him to scream...









but this evening, though it took forty minutes for his eyelids to actually close, he didn't scream nor cry. just whimpered and fussed every now and then. i found that i was still so tense and just looking at his eyelids as they fluttered close, willing them to stay closed. finally i realized... i have to RELAX!!! it's not the end of the world!!!

It's so good now to understand that babies *do* need to cry sometimes to let go of steam, get out frustrations, communicate, etc. After the cry session (9 minutes of screaming) he had this afternoon, he hasn't done it since. It feels almost liberating... for him and for me.

Of course I'm sure that he may even cry tomorrow and the next day or year. How as mothers, when we have our very lives for their happiness, can we find out to tolerate this? How will I handle it when he gets older and gets hurt by a fall, or upset by a friend who disses him? My, my... such thoughts are worrying me.







If I cant handle this communication, how will I prevent myself from being overprotective.

Quite a challenge, this motherhood thing is... quite an emotional journey.

Hydrangea: You're right. I do think it's important to make sure that one has tried other options, instead of holding their kid and letting him scream when one can definitely 'make it better'.

USAmma: I've tried the Baby Mozart video. But tv just seems to rile ds up more. He zones out but doesn't sleep; then when he leaves he's all the more upset.

Piglet: I'm also wondering the same thing. If I stop ds from sleeping, and stimulate it, it's not in his best interest. he'll just never sleep or get to a point where he cant stop crying. I noticed one person voted that doing this is damaging. Wonder what their reasons are.

Grumo, Wildflower: Also, I'll be checking out those two books... seems very interesting.

AmyG, NewMa, Dr Worm: thanks for your support and experiences.

Again I'll say, it's wonderful to come here for support; I was really at the end of my rope these past few days. Have been working to with Pantley's methods for over two months and after 2-3 wks of success, it seemed like we're back at square one.

Now I can think clearly and see that we've gotten so far. He's not waking up every hour at night to nurse, and that is a BIG step!

take care,
gopi gita


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

I'm coming forward to confess I am the one who voted differently (No, but...).

I voted before I read any of the posts.

I realized, after I read the posts, that I had made a totally incorrect assumption about what practice you were referring to.
I thought you were talking about people holding their hungry crying babies but refusing to nurse because it wasn't "time" or something.

Sorry for the misunderstanding . It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job. Your baby is fortunate to have you. -SP


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## Kishor'sMami (May 28, 2002)

no prob... super pickle







thanks for the explanation.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My mantra since motherhood has been "This too shall pass" When something is going on and I get tense about it, like a temper tantrum or crying or just a bad day, I tell myself that it won't last forever. It really helps sometimes just to remember that. I know that when your baby cries it seems like hours instead of minutes.

Darshani


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## caleb's mommy (Dec 8, 2001)

No, I wouldn't consider that CIO at all!

My baby is 5mo as well (almost 6) and I can definitely relate to what you are going through. Babies at this age seem to be more assertive. They are learning about likes and dislikes. They are also learning that some things that we won't let them do are, theoretically, options. I do not HAVE to sleep right now, I could be playing. For instance, my ds was quite frustrated today when he wanted to grab my dh's can of pop. I wouldn't let him because of the sharp area. He cried pretty loudly, and while I did try to find something else exciting for him, I wasn't willing to let him have the can. He, of course, doesn't see the safety aspect of the issue.

A few months ago, my ds wouldn't have:

a) Had a strong preference for the pop can over any other toy.
b) Strongly stated his preference.
c) Remembered that the pop can existed when I showed him something else.

The toughest part about this age is that I do have to let my ds cry about some things. Of course I do my best to make the home (and world!) a place where he has lots of room to explore, but some things come up where I have to set a limit. And on those occasions, he will cry to tell me how he feels about it.

I don't think it's possible to create an environment where babies don't need to cry. I wish it were. But when we have moments where all we can offer is a shoulder to cry on and empathy, I don't think we should beat ourselves up over it. I think that babies sense that you WANT to comfort them, even when it is impossible or unsafe to fix the situation, or you aren't sure exactly what the problem is!

I think that lovingly holding your crying baby, when all attempts to correct the situation haven't worked, is exactly what your baby needs.


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## Linda in Arizona (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't think it is the same thing at all. There were times when my kids were little that the only thing I could do was hold them while they cried. There wasn't anything that I could do to STOP the crying. I remember holding them and sometimes crying right along with them because it was so frustating. I think that when we hold our babies while they cry we let them know that we are always here for them. I think leaving a baby to cry it out alone teaches them that we are not here for them and they need to learn to deal with life on their own.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Sometimes you can't help them stop crying.

Sometimes they *need* to cry for some reason.

By holding a child you are there for him, showing him you care about him.

This is a far cry from abandoning a child and letting him cry it out.

Debra Baker


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## Ocean (May 10, 2002)

I think that when you've done everything possible and your child is still crying, it's pretty easy to say that the best thing you can do for your child is let him or her cry while you hold them and try to comfort them. The same goes when the child is crying because they want something that you won't let them have because it is dangerous. I think a harder question is what to do when you know what your child wants and it's not dangerous per se, but for some reason you don't want your child to have it right now. I went through this just last night with my daughter. She is six months old and just learned that when she is put on her back in our bed, it is bedtime and playtime is over. Last night, she was NOT ready for bed, and as soon as her back touched the bed, she immediately started crying. I was bringing her to sleep with me because I was tired and needed to get up for work early in the morning. I tried to comfort her, but she just screamed. After about 10 minutes, I got up and as soon as I got her out of bed, she immediately stopped crying. We played for about 45 minutes until I was exhausted. Then I brought her back to bed. She cried as I held her again, but after just a minute or so she calmed down and fell asleep. Even though I was there holding her, I kind of felt like I was letting her CIO, or attempting to until I just couldn't stand listening to her cry. I'm curious to know whether other mommas have done this or if this is like letting them CIO.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

My first son who is now four, was a high need/heavy duty crier! He cried for hours a day despite our best efforts.

It took us a while to figure this out because it felt cruel for us to not hold him while he cried, but often when he cried the only thing that stopped him from crying was for us to put him in the bouncer for a while. It was almost as if he needed a break, a little time alone. We discovered it one night when we were both (all) fried from about two hours of non-stop crying. I couldn't take it anymore and needed a couple minutes to regroup. I strapped him into the bouncer and went to the other room. He cried for about a minute, then he settled down and just sat there looking around. I am definitely an AP mom, but I learned that just like adults, babies sometimes need a few minutes to themselves.

BTW, I voted that they were definetely not the same.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

not the same.

if you hold them, you are telling them "mommy or daddy is here".

if they are left alone you are telling them "no one cares".

two totally different messages.

however, if you are holding them, i'd like to think:

1. you are speaking softly or singing.
2. you are rocking or dancing or swaying.
3. you are assuring them somehow that you love them.
4. you are making some eye contact or body contact...such as back patting or something.

i guess if you just held them coldly without much love it wouldn't be a whole lot better, but still a little better i'd think.

PS. i don't let my baby cry, but i do allow him to wimper...sometimes when i put him down he fusses for a few minutes/seconds. but i don't let him do that for long...and i don't let him become sad.


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## Drewsmom (Jan 12, 2002)

woops, it posted twice.


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## Drewsmom (Jan 12, 2002)

I felt the same way with ds at the same time (4-5 mo.s). He started losing his ability to just nurse to sleep like he had always done from the start. We struggled with it for such a long time as I didn't want him to CIO but it was such a struggle and I felt like I was constantly a 3 ring circus trying to get him to sleep. I also felt badly for him that when we were out or in other situations he _couldn't_ go to sleep unless it was me trying to put him to sleep. I'll have to admit now that he's 15 mo.s it's still somewhat the same, we have to have the routine and if I'm anywhere near it needs to be me that puts him to sleep. But when I'm not right there dh can put him to sleep by holding and rocking him.

I have read at least 15 different sleep books and talked to umphteen million moms to see what they did and just glean ideas or non-ideas based on how their kids acted/responded to them as parents. I was down to my LAST sleep book when I found a wonderful one (no it's _not_ a sleep trainer book), "The No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. It's helped sooo very much and if there is another baby I'll try to implement some of the strategies from the start. I always wondered why some of my friends had babies that really and truly didn't cry when going to bed and I absolutely knew that they hadn't done anything that the sleep trainers advocate (ie CIO). It was b/c they were naturally doing the things that Elizabeth talks about in her book. Basically it helps your baby create sleep associations and gives you just good, healthy tips like getting the baby out in early morning sunlight and creating a very dark room to sleep in (funny you'd think it would be the opposite since I'm afraid of the dark







). Anyway, best of luck. I do think that sleep is a learned skill but not one that we force on a child-which you're definitely not doing by lovingly holding your little one- but one that we are constantly helping to create.


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## sixkids35 (Jan 22, 2002)

crying it out is when you take your baby into another room and leave him.
When you're holding your fussy baby while she/he is crying is not the same. Your child still needs the human touch when they're tring to settle down or get over their fussy periods.
Research has shown babies blood pressure, heart rate, etc goes up when crying.
I voted they weren't the same.


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## sixkids35 (Jan 22, 2002)

I voted not exactly the same and wouldn't recommend it.


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## grumo (Dec 12, 2001)

What about in situations where you could stop the crying? If I let my tired sometimes overtired dd crawl off the bed and go play, she'd stop crying. If I let her nurse for three sucks for the umpteenth time she'd stop crying, but none of these routes has ended in an asleep baby.

If I lovingly explain that her body has told me that it is now bedtime and hold her while her cries holler, but I don't wanna go to bed, is that a step closer to CIO than I want to be? I can't decide. I don't want crying to be a part of our bedtime routine. But right now it seems to be the only thing that works.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Grumo, if you do read "The Aware Baby" you will find that Solter beleives crying is a healthy part of most bedtimes.

She thinks that babies need to cry and let off steam about their day, before they can settle down to sleep.

She thinks that an adult should remain calmly present to witness/acknowledge the crying, but not interfere to stop the crying.

On the other hand, there is a new book out by a man who says that he can stop almost any baby from crying with his swaddling/rocking/ and "Swooshing" technique. I haven't read the book. I think it is called "The Happiest baby on the Block" or something like that. He says that if you swaddle a baby, swing them in your arms, and make a loud "SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" sound in their ear, it acts as a trigger that shuts down their brain and puts them in a fetal state of quiet.

His thinking is that most babies cry because it is too quiet. The loud swooshing sounds in the womb are as loud as a vacuum cleaner, and he has a theory that this sound keeps babies from fully "waking up" and trying to kick or thrash.

Just when you thought you had heard it all, eh?

Heartmama


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## lorrielink (May 31, 2002)

i found that i could "startle" my baby with that kind of thing into being quiet but thats a far cry from compforting him and does he say he can get them to sleep or jsut to stop for a moment?

you would think that for as long as its been known that babys jsut cry cry cry, some more then others that we could just accept it, course hind site is 20/20


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't know, I think he said he gets them to sleep that way? My impression was that it was for parents of highly colicky very young babies, who did not respond to comfort....

Heartmama


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## moonglowmama (Jan 23, 2002)

I think an important point that I haven't exactly heard yet is that when a person is crying it doesn't mean you need to DO something about it. Of course, I'm not talking about crying for a physical need, but rather for an emotional one. I too have read Solter's "Aware Baby" and found it very liberating. Somehow along the way I got the idea that if you were a good AP mom, you'd have a baby that rarely cried. What I've learned since is that my son's crying isn't about me.

Like all young people, his life is frustrating. He is always being made to do things he'd rather not, (like ride in a car, etc), he is small and uncoordinated. So, he gets mad, sad, frustrated. I don't discount his feelings of happiness, joy, excitement, so why say to him through my actions "no, you don't need to feel mad or whatever. Look how good your life is." Can you just imagine if, at the end of a long day you try to tell your spouse all about the crappy things that happened and he just talks over you, saying, oh, it couldn't really be that bad, I know what you need to do, etc? Wouldn't you just scream? Sometimes it feels good just to vent, and it is the process of crying, yelling, etc that makes us able to deal with life's events.

As we cry, we mentally work through the scenarios, frustrations of the day (or more) and when we're done, we are better thinkers, happier, ready to face whatver is coming next.

This is exactly what happens to my son as he cries. I'll give you an example. Last week we were at a neighbor's and their dog pounced on my son (18 mos) twice, making him fall face first onto the concrete and giving him a small scratch and bite mark. We were all traumatized. I scooped up my son and held him. He cried, screamed, really for a good 10 minutes straight. The other adults there were trying everything to distract him, thinking that if he wasn't crying , he was okay. But I knew that in order for him to be okay, he needed to be given the freedom to voice all of his fears, anxieties over the situation. So we asked that they not distract him. When he had finished crying, he returned to playing, even wanting to play with the animals again. (the offending dog was taken inside). He swam, ate, and later just peacefully fell asleep in my lap. Everyone there was surprised that he wanted to play anymore, but that kind of residual fear is a result of not dealing with a stress in its entirety. Most of us were raised that way, and so when we hear our babies crying we think we need to help them to be quiet, to be happy.

In fact, all they need is for us to really listen, to provide love and support while they communicate with us. They are capable of dealing with their emotions if only we let them.

I had intended to just write a short post- guess I'm still dealing with some issues myself. Thanks for listening.

Sarah


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## Soleil (Jul 20, 2002)

Hmmmmmm, I wish this had been described a little better. Dh and I are now disagreeing on this. He often will hold dd while she cries, rather than getting up off his butt and playing with her. He says crying in loving arms is okay. I say, if you know what can help her, you should do it (unless it's not safe).


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

I personally would much rather do something that I knew would stop my baby from crying rather than sit in a chair listening to it. The exception being if I was trying to set up a bedtime routine with a toddler or much older baby.


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## iris (Jun 20, 2004)

Just adding my 2 cents...Not the same at all. By holding them while they cry you are showing them that you love them, will not abandon them, nor will you try and force them (after trying all the other things you can possibly think of) to stop crying. if they are angry, upset, frustrated, sick, whatever you are there for them.


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