# Low-Milk Supply Tribe



## Victorian

I thought it would be a good idea to start a support thread for women that have low milk supply and are nursing and supplementing. I am hoping that we can use this thread to share infomation and to support those that are just starting to work through this problem.

Here is my story:

I had low milk supply with my first dd. I weaned her to formula after the first 2 weeks (for low supply). After that I became a birth and postpartum doula and an IBCLC student. I had a lot more information. I had helped a lot of women to successfully breastfed, and felt confident that bf would go a lot more easily this time.

After the homebirth of my son, nursing was off to a good start, so I thought. We had had a good birth, but he was born "sunny-side-up" after only six minutes of pushing. I think that it caused a bit of damage to his jaw and made the problem even worse. After the first few bowel movements and a couple of wet diapers all stopped. He he wet diapers maybe every 2 days. After going 6 days without a bowel movement, working with a IBCLC, we started to supplement. I used pumped BM as much as possible and formula. My Midwives hooked me up with past client that pumped for me for a couple of weeks. Then we went on vactation and I was using forumla for a few weeks. Then I heard of a mom in the Nursing Mothers Council that had a freezer full of milk that she didn't need. She donated all the milk to me and that is what we have been using until about a week ago.

Until he was 4 months old I was nursing at least 10 times a day and pumping 6 times (then I stopped pumping). I have tried all the herbs (including chinese), Domperidone, Accupunture, pumping, cranial/sacrel adn chiropractic for him and stuff that I don't remember anymore. I think of anything, the chinese herbs helped the most. In fact within a week of starting them, I had Mastitis. We used a SNS for a while, put he hated it, and started to refuse the breast if I was using it. We switched to bottles and had no problem switching between breast and bottle (thank goodness)

Niko is now 7 months old and loves to eat solids. He still takes a bottle every couple of days. We are still nursing. Although it has been hard, it has been soooo worth it. I now look forward to helping women that thought that they couldn't breastfeed to know that sometimes you can with a little extra. I think that what made the biggest different to me was the support that I recieved from all my doula friends, my midwives and the IBCLCs that I worked with. I am looking forward to child-led weaning!

Victorian


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## aussiemum

Hi there. I've been a member of this tribe in the past. Unfortunately I didn't make it past 6 months with either of my two littlies. It was a very painful time, scarred my soul forever.









Just wanted to reply to you. I'm sure you already know that there are many other mamas out there who have had this sort of trouble. It's been 6 years since this all began for me, & some days I still can't go there. Today's one of them.


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## Quirky

My supply has always been on the low side....

When ds was born, there was meconium in the waters and the midwives suctioned him extremely aggressively on my perineum. That night in the birth center he wouldn't latch on and his respiration rate was too high. The next morning they transferred us to the NICU for suspected meconium aspiration or potential GBS infection (rapid respiration rate being one sign of infection in the neonate). He never latched in the 4 days he was in the NICU; I started pumping ASAP but got only drops of colostrum. He was on an IV and therefore not hungry, and also had a very small mouth. We had to feed him formula by bottle in order for them to agree to take his IV out. (He ended up with a diagnosis of transient tachypnea of the newborn - ie his respiration rate was high for an unknown reason







)

When we were released he still wasn't nursing. We got an IBCLC to make a housecall the next day. By two days after that his terrible latch had broken the skin on both my nipples. My milk had come in but there wasn't a lot and I had to pump to bottle feed him, so wasn't getting any nipple stimulation. Went through mastitis and thrush with the broken skin on nipples, bottle preference, poor latch, round the clock pumping - life was hell for the first 3 months or so, trying to get him to nurse. I would break down in tears after yet another unsuccessful nursing session when I'd have to give him a bottle of ABM.

OK, long story short. We worked with a bunch of LCs. We somehow pulled through, he got bigger, we figured it out and I was eventually able to stop pumping and nurse exclusively. We're still nursing at 18 months (although obviously he eats solids by now!) My supply has always been on the edge though - although I do see him swallowing, I never see milk coming out of his mouth and if he pulls off in the middle of a swallow milk does not come shooting out - I think he has to actively suck it out if that makes sense.

To increase my supply, I used herbs - fenugreek, blessed thistle, goat's rue, alfalfa, nettles, fennel, red raspberry leaf - in various combinations, both pill forms and tincture. Fenugreek and blessed thistle are my standbys when I feel like my supply needs a boost. I also used domperidone, and definitely saw results, although it did give me weird headaches, so I was glad to stop taking it. I had to pump when I went back to work for 6 weeks a year ago but haven't pumped since then - the one time I tried to get milk to donate for a scientific experiment I could barely get anything.

I think that ds' failure to latch for months played a big part, and I think I may also have had undiagnosed postpartum hypothyroidism going on. When I had a physical last June (when ds was 10 months) my TSH was in the hypothyroid range; when I saw an endocrinologist 2 months later it was in the normal range (where it had been at my last physical 3 years ago.) So I hypothesize that I was mildly to moderately hypothyroid for up to a year after ds was born. Next baby, I'm getting my TSH tested postpartum! And hiring a good LC to have a postpartum visit to make sure things are going well. And stockpiling the herbs.

I used Nature's One organic dairy formula to supplement. It smelled fine, although I couldn't bring myself actually to taste it.

Anyway, bringing this novel to a close - I don't think I suffer from true low supply but we've been pretty close for a good part of our nursing relationship, so it's a subject near and dear to my heart.


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## anabean

thanks for starting this thread!

i too have low supply. i started taking domperidone at about 6 weeks pp. it's been working and i am able to EBF. though my baby is on the small side (14.5lbs at 4.5 months) so i constantly worry about starving her. the ped says it's ok if she doens't cry and has enough wet/poopy diapers, which she does. but still... some days are really hard for me.

gtg!

more later


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## deymm

Reviving this tribe!

I have low supply due to breast reduction surgery. My ds take forumla supplement through the Lact-Aid.

It's been a roller coaster, that's for sure, but I'm so glad to have stuck with it!


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## scubamom

ive posted before about how i use the sns, take domperidone and have very little milk.
were still going strong but i feel like i have even less milk than before, get a nice feeding first thing in the morning can actually feel milk in my breasts, but rest of the day dont feel like i have much at all!!! hes always been mainly formula, but in my gut i know i am getting less milk in the day. why would that be i havent done anything different, i would hope for the same or more!!!!.
only thing different now i think about it is that for the most part he isnt having a middle of the night feed.
could that be why??
god i would hate to give up, but is it really worth it when gets probably less than a dribble. and being graphic now he is getting less and less yellow lumpy breast milk poos i used to love seeing (werid i know) and more and more green formula ones!!!.
or should i just carry on as i love the fact that he uses my breast as a pacifier when nothing else will soothe him.

just needed to share our update
heather
why is it so hard, when i want it so bad, and so many people dont have these problems quit, or dont even start breastfeeding


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## anabean

oh heather!









i so know how you feel. i haven't had to supplement (mainly b/c she doesn't like formula, cause i offer it to her almost every day!!) but i know about all the pain you feel. i just feel it's so unfair that i was given this problem, because BFing is the most important thing in my life right now... if i could have tons of milk i'd be so much more happy, i swear!

anyway, i think it is possible that you are becoming immune to the domperidone. it's happened to me and i started decreasing the dose and then increasing it again. this is the only way i can see a difference anymore, by decreasing it, and then increasing it back up. otherwise, my supply is ever dwindling. you might want to try that.

good luck! and thanks for reviving this thread. it's good to hear from other mamas with the same issues.

hugs all around!


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## aussiemum

Oh sweetie!!!

Quote:

why is it so hard, when i want it so bad, and so many people dont have these problems quit, or dont even start breastfeeding
I know this feeling- it's soooo frustrating to see others who don't even seem to want to try & breastfeed their babies, & others who just, oops! do it like it's the easiest thing in the world....

But in the end, your path is the one you've been given, even if it is a crappy one, & you will get thru it & you will learn so much about yourself...... don't know if that helps at all, it's just the way I see things now, 6 years past where you are, with a new baby & all........

I was happy to have my two kids (been down this low supply track twice now!!!) suck at the breast as much as they wanted for comfort until about 6 months of age. They weren't getting much BM- I know what you mean about being able to tell by the colour of the poo. After 6 months, I just couldn't fight it anymore..... many others make it further than that, & go on to EBF. It sounds so trite, but in the end you'll just make the best decisions you can at the time...... follow your heart.... Big, big hugs to you.......


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## Victorian

Quote:

_or should i just carry on as i love the fact that he uses my breast as a pacifier when nothing else will soothe him.
[/B]_
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Oh sweety









Even if you are not producing any milk, you are so much more than a pacifier. Nursing is about more than milk. It is comfort. A safe harbor during a stormy day. A pick me up when they are sick. A give and take of love between two beings that need one another.

If you don't want to give up, don't! I told myself that even if he gets a drop at a time, if he will have me, he will be at the breast at least 12 months. And you know what? At months, he hardly needs a supplement at all. At the peak of supplementing, he was getting about 15 ounces a day! Now I am planning to nurse until 2 or longer unless he gives it up.

I think that you need to address why you would be losing milk. Have you seen an IBCLC? What is the dose of Domperidone that you are taking? Are you pumping?

I know how you feel about other people not even trying. It is hard when you are trying so hard and someone says that they didn't nurse because it wasen't worth it. But trust me, it IS worth it.

Warmly,

Victoria_


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## deymm

Just curious how all the low-supply mamas handle night wakings and middle of the night feedings.

We used to be able to go without supplement in the middle of the night, but that isn't working anymore. My ds will take only 8 oz of supp all day long, but then take 4 oz before going down and another 4 oz during the night. It's getting rather trying to have to wake up and give him the supp instead of just rolling over and putting the boob in his mouth.

Can you tell I'm tired?!? LOL!

How do you handle it?


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## Victorian

Are you pumping at all? At night? I am horrible at getting any milk, but this is what I did...

I would use my Isis pump all day when I had the chance. Leaving the milk in the pump in the fridge. By the end of the day /i would have enough for 1 bottle (he didnt have a problem switching). Since BM can sit out for up to 10 hours in moderate weather, I would make up the bottle and put it next to the bed. By the time he would be hungary, the milk would be warmish and I wouldn't have to go anywhere.

If you are using formula, you could have a bottle with powder in it and a separate bottle with water next to the bed. Then just mix and serve.

I don't have any great ideas for the SNS however. Do you always use it at the breast or do you ever do finger feeding? If you use the finger, you could lay and snooze while the baby feeds.

Quote:

_Originally posted by deymm_
*Just curious how all the low-supply mamas handle night wakings and middle of the night feedings.

We used to be able to go without supplement in the middle of the night, but that isn't working anymore. My ds will take only 8 oz of supp all day long, but then take 4 oz before going down and another 4 oz during the night. It's getting rather trying to have to wake up and give him the supp instead of just rolling over and putting the boob in his mouth.

Can you tell I'm tired?!? LOL!

How do you handle it?*


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## deymm

I use a Lact-Aid. What I have been doing is taking a cooler with me to bed and putting it on the nightstand.

I just don't understand how/why my ds needs to eat so much at night. He takes only 8 oz all day long then needs another 4 oz to get to sleep and another 4 oz during the night. I want to cut out some of that supp somehow. Maybe I need to stop offering.

I don't know. Now it appears he's starting to get teeth........last night he was up about five times. I would get up and walk with him and pat his back. He would be asleep and we'd crawl back into bed only for him to start crying again out of nowhere. Teething pain is the only thing I can think of.


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## Hey Mama!

Hi all! I'm happy to have found this tribe. Not that I'm happy we all have supply problems, but that there is others who can commiserate. I've been supplementing my almost 7 mo dd Bethany for about two months now. She had only gained 8oz in about 2 1/2 months so the ped gently suggested I supplement. He totally left it up to me so with a heavy heart I gave it a try and her weight jumped up immediately. I take fenugreek whenever I feel like it is taking a dip (like now) but if I take it for too long I start getting horrible stomach problems from it. I tried pumping and even with a hospital grade pump I could only get 1-2oz after a 45 minute session. She takes about 10-15 oz of supplementation a day, which I know is a LOT. She is really into solids now so I'm hoping to be able to cut a bottle out. I tried recently and she started having less urine output again so I added it back.

I think my problem is because I have an underdeveloped breast, and I think that i just can't make a full milk supply for her.

Brandi
Ainsley 9/01
Bethany 9/03


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## aussiemum

Rockerbabysmom- I'm sorry to hear that we have some new additions to the tribe. IKWYM, it's terrible to think of others having to go thru this, yet comforting to know that you're not alone........ anywho, you said something interesting about having an underdeveloped breast. I guess it's all just part of this search I have been on since my supply problems became apparent- searching for answers. So, would you mind expanding on that a bit, 'cuz I've never heard of an underdeveloped breast & I'm curious what that means.

Ta in advance.....


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## Free49

It is so nice to commiserate with other mothers who have this problem. I thought that things would go so differently with my second and we are having the same problems all over again. The weight gain issues are all starting at exactly the same time they did with my first. I supplemented my first at three mo. and continued to bf till she self weaned at 7 mo.
I just have to yell a couple of things to get them off my chest.
1. I hate growth charts
2. I want to be Milk wealthy and why cant I have the milk that so many other mamas have who do not even want to bf
3. Even my dr. who supposedly is extremely pro bf is making me feel like I am starving my child because she is in the 25% percentile for weight.
4. Why do I count every wet/poopy diaper like it is gold!!
UGH!!
I thought everything would be so different the second time around and it is exactly the same. I always blamed low supply on my bras, lack of knowledge, lack of support, lack of rest/sleep, but instead it is just the way the things are.

We are in the thick of all of the weight check visits and I just cringe at the thought of going to the dr to check her weight. The bottom line and question that I ask myself 100 time everyday is am I starving my daughter?

thanks for letting me vent.
Caroline


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## Hey Mama!

I have one breast that is a lot smaller then the other, it doesn't get engorged, has barely changed shape since breastfeeding. The other one seems normal. I've read about hypoplastic breasts and while I don't have all the symptoms they describe I do have quite a bit of them, as in the different sizes, being widely spaced, and how the one didn't change much during pregnancy or breastfeeding. So, that is why I think I have an underdeveloped breast. It hasn't been officially "diagnosed" by a medical professional though









Brandi


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## Victorian

I think that we all really know where you are coming from on those vents! But, I would question the doctor on the 25% percentile for weight thing. All that means is that 25% of HEALTHY children weigh less than your child and 75% of HEALTHY children weigh more, not that your child is unhealthy. The problem is when the child is losing lots of %, not having enough wet and soiled diapers, is lethargic, and not meeting milestones. For instance, my son has always been around the 20% even with supplementing and eating solids. His daddy is over 6 feet tall and weighs 140! Somethings are just meant to be! The goal is a healthy baby that is growing good, not a "fat" baby.

Have you read Dr. Jack Newman's book "The Ulimate Breastfeeding Guide"? I think that it is a must have for all women having nursing problems.

Victoria

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Free49*
It is so nice to commiserate with other mothers who have this problem. I thought that things would go so differently with my second and we are having the same problems all over again. The weight gain issues are all starting at exactly the same time they did with my first. I supplemented my first at three mo. and continued to bf till she self weaned at 7 mo.
I just have to yell a couple of things to get them off my chest.
1. I hate growth charts
2. I want to be Milk wealthy and why cant I have the milk that so many other mamas have who do not even want to bf
3. Even my dr. who supposedly is extremely pro bf is making me feel like I am starving my child because she is in the 25% percentile for weight.
4. Why do I count every wet/poopy diaper like it is gold!!
UGH!!
I thought everything would be so different the second time around and it is exactly the same. I always blamed low supply on my bras, lack of knowledge, lack of support, lack of rest/sleep, but instead it is just the way the things are.

We are in the thick of all of the weight check visits and I just cringe at the thought of going to the dr to check her weight. The bottom line and question that I ask myself 100 time everyday is am I starving my daughter?

thanks for letting me vent.
Caroline


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## Free49

Thanks so much Victorian for all of your encouraging words. It is so nice to hear from other mamas who have gone through this. I am going to stick to my guns and change dr if need be. Every dr. I have seen just has the same way of making me question my decision to soley bf and not supplement (something about the baby needing extra calories). I am promising myself that I will follow my mamas intuition despite what the dr says (or at least get a second and third opinion).

I have some input into the what causes low milk supply question. I never leaked anything when I was pregnant or bf and I have a complete size difference between my breasts.
Caroline


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## aussiemum

Well now this is very interesting. Because I have mismatched breasts too, like one part is missing on the right side......... Hmm..... I have never heard the term hypoplastic breast before, ta for the heads up- I think I'll do a little research on it.








to all of us who have had to deal with growth charts. I dunno, 25% sounds pretty good to me. Free, regarding bfing your second child- some things that I took into consideration were: what percentile was my (2nd) child at birth, what is our body type (ie: dh & I are fairly lean), & what happened when I supplemented my first ie: did she suddenly gain a huge amount of weight with supplementing? (well, she did gain heaps in 2 weeks, but still remained a lean baby after going totally onto formula- just no ribs sticking out, KWIM?) It is a horrible feeling to think that you are starving your bub, but have a think about what you reckon her natural body type might be. Both of my kids are just lean, no matter how much they eat- I think it's just the way they are........ But they did need supplementing, unfortunately, to keep them at a healthy lean.


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## Hey Mama!

Free49-I just did a round of weight checks a couple of months ago, as dd wasn't even on the chart! She was at the third percentile at our last check and I will know more on Friday when she has her 6mo (even though she'll be 7 months). I totally understand your frustrations. I wish I had full leaky breasts to complain about.

My first dd was ff but was the same way so I think it's really just how my kids are as infants. She is now a 35lb, 2.5 year old.

Brandi


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## Victorian

my goodness, my dd is amost 5 and just pushing 40 lbs! Skinny little thing!


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## Free49

I dont remember exactly what happened when I started to supplement my first I think she did gain weight quite a bit faster. I am going to have my drs office send me a copy of my first dd growth chart. My husband and I are both tall and medium build, but my husband was very thin for most of his life (till he got married haha). My first daughter is 2 and about 28 pounds. I am thinking that this is just the way our babies grow as infants. Thanks for all of the support when I have her weighed next week this will probably be the first place I come.
Caroline


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## Panserbjorne

Hello. I'm new here, though not new to the problem. I had serious supply issues with ds which resulted in me making formula since I couldn't feed him. Now we are back in the low milk arena with dd. I am currently taking domperidone at a very high dosage as well as more milk plus and pumping CONSTANTLY. Unfortunately I just found out yesterday that dd is below her birth weight and not getting nearly enough food so our LC asked me not-too-gently to start pounding the milk into her. I'm very lucky to have a great friend who donates six ounces a day of breastmilk so I can avoid formula at least for now. Aaaargh. It's just so frustrating! I have such guilt about not being able to provide for her. I did everything I could to be totally natural with both kiddos. After a great homebirth with no drugs, skin to skin contact and co-sleeping I still have almost NO milk. So now I get to take drugs which I am hugely opposed to doing to feed my child naturally. And even that isn't working. I'm so depressed. DH says I just need to snap out of it-that I'm no fun to be around anymore and it doesn't have to be this stressful. Why can't he understand that it DOES have to be this stressful until there's a resolution? That I need to take it this seriously until I can get a supply going and feed our lethargic baby? I'm at least glad that I found this group. Now at least I don't feel so incredibly alone and like an absolute failure. Thanks for listening-er-reading.


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## Nosy

I have read this thread with great interest, and I just wanted to say, "Me, too!" Elisabeth, I just wanted to say I'm right there with you. I had a natural birth and wanted to feed my baby completely naturally. He is currently 9 weeks and gaining weight but I'm having to supplement with formula and take domperidone. I cried the first time I had to give it to him but at least he is gaining weight.

Here is my (abbreviated) story. DS was born tongue-tied and we couldn't get him to latch (didn't figure out the tongue tie until day 3). Consequently he got almost no fluids and got jaundiced which led to his being lethargic and not wanting to eat. I started pumping with an electric pump beginning with day three so eating took almost all the time by the time he tried to eat for 45 minutes, then I pumped for 20 minutes, then he ate again. Unnatural intervention #1 was a nipple shield which at least enabled him to latch, but he still wasn't getting enough. He somehow managed to get back to his birthweight by 2 weeks, though he got down to 5 lbs 15 oz after a birthweight of 6 lbs 7 oz.

At 4 weeks after much agonizing we got his tongue clipped which he slept through and did not seem traumatized by. After about a week I had completely weaned him off the nipple shield. Still only gaining about 2 oz./week. I started fenugreek but it gave the baby and me terrible gastrointestinal distress, so I quit taking it, and immediately my supply dipped. I started taking domperidone and am currently taking 10 mg 4x daily. I hate taking it. I worry about the chemicals, that there will be some kind of long term effect on him (like the daughters of DES, for example). He also gets 2-8 oz of formula/day. Since I started the formula supplementing and the domperidone, he has gained 1.5 lbs in 3 weeks. I've pretty much quit pumping after feedings because it is so demoralizing to pump for 20 minutes and get nothing. I'm also eating oatmeal daily and drinking water and gatorade like crazy, but I can't tell that they make a difference. I've read the "low glandular tissue" thread, and I really think that's my problem, in addition to initially having problems establishing supply because of the nipple shield.

It is so frustrating to see my friends' babies gaining like crazy with no supply issues. And the ones who leak and become engorged...I would love to have those problems. I am hanging in there but I do feel like somewhat of a failure because my body isn't doing all it's supposed to do.

Good luck to all of you, and if you come up with a new way to increase supply, please share.


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## scubamom

hi
well i have just brought some fenugreek, how should i take it? one a day, 2 ?
they are 500mg strenghth
also are they ok to take along with domperidone?
im just hoping this helps, i think my body getting too used to the dom as my tiny supply getting even smaller, im using so much formula its crazy, but he always get at least one good breastfeed in the mornings, and still getting a bit of yellow seedy poo!!!lol








anyhow thanks in advance
heather


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## aussiemum

Elisabeth, I so know where you are at right now!! Struggling with low milk supply & difficulties with breastfeeding had a really negative effect on my marriage- DH just did not get how important it was to me to be able to do the bfing thing. I would just sit & cry & cry & cry when giving DD her bottle of formula- I think DH felt frustrated that he couldn't help. And I did have the LCs saying that they thought that I just wasn't going to be able to fully bf DD- I really had no choice but to supplement. And I so believed the 'books'- if you just try hard enough then everyone can breastfeed. Can I say something here?--- I think that's a bullshit lie, repeated to get other mothers thru who maybe don't have supply issues, tissue damage, underdeveloped breasts, or whatever else that might affect supply. And it's devastating to think that maybe you're just not trying hard enough...........

In the end I choose to go over to formula entirely, mostly because I was worried that the kids weren't going to develop properly, that there might be some sort of brain damage if they didn't get the correct nutrition early on. That & I couldn't figure out how to get them to stop biting me rather than sucking-- I changed over from being the comfort device (a pacifier) to the teething device!!

I know a lot of mums here persist thru difficulties & use a SNS & whatever for years. That's fine & good on ya, but I also want to say that it's okay to choose to end breastfeeding. Repeat after me. It's okay. If that's what a mum feels she needs to do, then it's okay. There is no point in sending yourself mental trying to achieve the impossible, when sometimes you just need to step back & say to yourself 'this is just not going to be my path in life.' Acceptance & trying to move on have been a big part of recovering from the breastfeeding nightmare for me. Dunno if that helps anyone, but as always, take or leave what you need from this post. If it helps you achieve peace with your situation, then in the end that is what is important. My youngest is going to be four soon, & I'm just starting to talk this over in therapy (for Gawd's sake! Therapy over bfing!!) so I've got a long way to go..............

As always,







to us all.............

BTW, did anyone see the letter in the last Mothering mag about breastfeeding difficulties? The author of the letter was suggesting that maybe Mothering do an article on this very topic. What do you guys think? I'd be willing to talk about it more publicly, if it would help others..... maybe we should get a posse together & send some suggestions over to the magazine end of things??


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## Victorian

Aussiemum- I respect where you are coming from here. I too stopped nursing my daughter because of this issue. I too went to therapy over it (maybe this is common?). I have never stopped mourning the decision to stop nursing DD, which is one of the reasons that I am becoming a IBCLC, and one of the reasons that I started this thread supporting women who are choosing not to give up. I think however, that society as a whole is always telling women that it is OK to stop, and certainly it is a woman's choice to stop or continue. For instance, at 4 months, I choose to quit pumping.

I would like to offer a different viewpoint.

I think that what women need to hear is that it is OK not to stop. IT is OK to nurse and supplement. I think that sometimes women feel that it is "weird" to nurse without "needing to" to feed a baby. But isn't ANY breastmilk better than NO breastmilk? Isn't breastfeeding about more than just the amount of milk that you are putting into your child? DS is now almost 10 months old and breastfeeding him is wonderful! Does he need a supplement now and then? Yes, he does, but mostly he is at the breast. It has been a hard path to follow, yes it would have been easier to stop, if fact I did a thousand times. But the help and the reassurance that breastfeeding is bestfeeding that my support group gave me is what kept me putting him to the breast.

Once again, I don't mean to minimize your imput here, I just wanted to offer another way.

Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
I know a lot of mums here persist thru difficulties & use a SNS & whatever for years. That's fine & good on ya, but I also want to say that it's okay to choose to end breastfeeding. Repeat after me. It's okay. If that's what a mum feels she needs to do, then it's okay. There is no point in sending yourself mental trying to achieve the impossible, when sometimes you just need to step back & say to yourself 'this is just not going to be my path in life.' Acceptance & trying to move on have been a big part of recovering from the breastfeeding nightmare for me. Dunno if that helps anyone, but as always, take or leave what you need from this post. If it helps you achieve peace with your situation, then in the end that is what is important. My youngest is going to be four soon, & I'm just starting to talk this over in therapy (for Gawd's sake! Therapy over bfing!!) so I've got a long way to go..............


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## aussiemum

I see what you are saying Victoria, but I do think it's also important to be supported in choosing not to battle on with pumps & equipment & supping & growth charts & endless trips to hospital/doctor's surgery. It's interesting, I've always thought that in Australia everyone just breastfed, but I just heard figures on the news that stated something different. It's around 92% when mothers leave the hospital (homebirth is frowned upon/illegal here), dropping to around 40% by 6 months. That surprised me, because (IMO) we don't get the sort of anti-bf crap that seems to be so prevalent in US society. I suppose if you breastfed a 5 year old in a restaurant, you'd prolly get some strange looks (which is a problem for some of course). But bfing a two year old, or even three year old- no worries. Or maybe it's just the part of Aus I live in, I dunno.

I can start another thread for support for mamas who have entirely switched over to formula, if you'd like this one to just be for low-milk supply extended feeders......


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## Victorian

You are of course welcome to start your own thread (I think that there might be one called "support for those that can't breastfeed"). But you are more than welcome to stay here too. I always enjoy reading your posts when I see them around the threads.

It is just when I quit nursing dd everyone said "good job, you tried your best, sometimes things just happen this way, etc.". No one encouraged me to keep trying. I think that if they had, I might have continued to.

BTW - what did you mean by "endless trips to hospital/doctor's surgery"?

Victorian


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## aussiemum

Ah, that was my first child (DD). Because she was diagnosed with failure to thrive we agreed to have some blood work done on her to check for cystic fibrosis, etc. etc. Some of the results came back abnormal- liver something or other. So, for the next 6 months we were in & out of the hospital, as the drs wanted to keep checking her blood work. It was pretty awful having to hold my screaming, skinny baby with her ribs sticking out while the nurses tried to find a place where they could actually get a vein to take blood. DD didn't regain her birth weight until she was 3 months old (after beginning supplements) so she was pretty sickly. Twice a week (I think? from memory) I had to go to the health clinic to get her weighed, which was very painful to me to measure progress in terms of one or two ounces of weight gained each week (that is, the weeks where she actually didn't regress & lose weight). I guess I felt like everyone was watching me to make sure I didn't...... I dunno... go post-natal psychosis or something..... So I had to turn up. And I was really worried about her health, so it was comforting sometimes to have medical reassurance that she wasn't at death's door, so to speak. And one night we made an emergency trip to the children's hospital after the GP was pretty worried by the sight of poor DD. It was just a really bad, bad time, & it was a such relief to have her gain some weight from formula. I was/am so sad that bfing didn't work out for me & my kids, yet so grateful to think that she might actually survive, & even thrive one day (which she has done).

I did get support to continue bfing even tho she basically got all nutrition from formula. In the end I was just emotionally & physically beaten down to the ground by it all, & had to call it quits. At 27, it was probably the first time in my life I'd ever given up on anything, & it really rocked my self-image. Well, shattered that image into little pieces actually. And so, I rebuild my image of myself day by day. A new & improved version, I hope.









I'll keep posting here, to be sure! Might check out that other thread you mentioned too.


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## Victorian

I can certainly understand how scary that must have been to you! But you know, you say that you gave up breastfeeding, but I think that to continue to nurse through all that is amazing! You are a breastfeeding success IMO.


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## aussiemum

Hugs right back at you Victorian. And thank you so much for your kind words.


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## Hey Mama!

Aussiemum, I just went through the rounds of tests with Bethany a couple of months ago. The wait for the CF test about killed me! I have people telling me all the time, "why don't you just wean?" I still bf her at least three times a day, and she wants it so I am not going to stop. It is so disheartening to realize that my body is not working the way I want it to, that I am not a milk factory like other women. Oh well-it's been a long road but I'm finally at peace with my decision to supplement as I see how it is benefiting her.


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## Curious

I just found this thread. I will have to take quite a bit of time and read thouroughly, but I'm eager to post. Boy could I have used more support 2-1/2 years ago. I never had a full supply, cried more tears than I had milk. I used organic formula, supplementer, haberman feeder, until Dd started taking a good amount of solids at 14 months, and was also able (and willing) to drink water out of a cup.

We are still nursing. I'm amazed. From an early age, she clearly knew how to time things to maximize her milk access. Now she lies in funny positions and when I complain about the awkwarness, she says, I get the milk better this way. She tells me sometimes that I have to go and eat, so that I make more milk. But she also tells me the milk is delicious. It's so great to hear her tell me all my persistence was worth it, which her excellent health proves too.

I was pretty scared that any amount of formula, and any use of the bottle, would undermine all the benefits of breastfeeding. I learned through my experience, that small amounts of breastmilk can override the disadvantages of formula, and a close nursing relationship can be had despite the use of paraphenalia. If I'd know that years ago, I'd have been a lot more relaxed instead of crying every time I mixed formula.

I want to add that it was a big turning point for me to come to terms with the fact that nothing I did would bring any miracle. Some accused me of giving up, but this enabled me to stop swallowing bottles of herbs that did nothing, decrease my pumping, and move on. It took me about 6 months to get to this point, and that was when I was able to let Dd come to enjoy nursing for it's own sake.


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## Panserbjorne

Wow does it help to hear from all of you! Today was a bad day, and I vaguely considered quitting all the crap (pumping, drugs, herbs etc.) Thank you for reminding me that there is an option-that I can nurse and supplement. I saw another doc who thinks that maybe I have a chance at nursing full time once dd regains all of her weight. I forgot to post that I had found out that she had actually weighed in below her birth weight at the doctors office when I had been told that she was gaining just fine. So I had a mild freak out but the doc went on tho say that perhaps she COULDN"T nurse because she was too weak. So once we get her up to snuff she may be able to stimulate more milk production. I'm not holding my breath though. When I couldn't nurse ds I made my own formula which was just as easy as mixing up store bought stuff. So...if I need to do that I will. Oh the frustration of it all! Thanks to everyone involved in this thread. It's a HUGE help. By the way-those who supplement and BF, how do you do it? Nurse then supplement? Just curious as to how it all works.


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## mom2kbeth

to you from us, Elisabeth.

I've been thinking of you ... and then I logged in and your name jumped out at me! I wish I had some advice (or was able to actually get any milk when I pumped, cause I'd be running it up to you now if I could!). But I just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you and hope that you and Selkie come out of this happily soon. I miss you - hopefully we'll see you sometime in the near future. Everyone was asking about you at the meeting on Friday and at playgroup today. Just wanted to let you know that you're well thought of and very much missed


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## Hey Mama!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
By the way-those who supplement and BF, how do you do it? Nurse then supplement? Just curious as to how it all works.

I nurse her in the morning, around noon, at bedtime and again late at night before I go to bed. She usually gets a bottle (6 oz) around 10ish and again at around 3ish. Sometimes she gets another bottle in the evening. She also eats a couple of solid meals during the day as well. But, my babe is 7 months. I've been told you should breastfeed and then offer a couple of oz afterwards.


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## Victorian

when we were supplimenting a lot, we would nurse and then have 2 oz in a bottle every time. We tried the SNS, and he just started to refuse the breast if there was a tube. Now we nurse and do 3 meals of solids a day - giving him a bottle when he just acts fussy at the breast and wants one. We have always nursed about 10 times a day.

Victorian


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## aussiemum

Yep, ditto to what Victorian said. I nursed first for as long as I could take it (up to 2-3 hours each session) until the kids just got really fussy, & then I'd give the bottle. Usually I had to give more than 2 oz tho. Also, I would nurse from one side, pump the other at the same time, then give in a bottle whatever I managed to extract from the pumped side- usually about 1 oz after, oh, an hour or so. Then I'd just swap sides & keep on going.

A note of caution from experience: if you pump by hand for long periods of time (Avent pumper here) you risk RSI & very sore wrists.


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## Curious

All the advice I got was nurse first, then bottle. But Dd was so agitated when she was hungry and had to deal with my piddly drops. What worked better was to let her take the edge of her hunger with the bottle, then she was ready to enjoy nursing.


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## Panserbjorne

Curious, that's what my LC told me to do. zshe said that it would be less frustrating for dd and let her associate the breast with satisfaction rather than frustration. Thanks everyone else for the replies as well. i think I'm going to attempt using the SNS again and simply pray that she gets strong enought to nurse on her own. It's so hard to know what is the right thing to do.
I began stepping down off the domperidone because I can't afford it any longer. I already saw my supply decrease. I spent the last day and a half sobbing but there isn't any more money. My LC suggested getting the meds from New Zealand, I guess it's about a third of the cost. That being the case I'm thinking of borrowing yet more money to take one last shot. I can get a three month supply from New Zealand for what it costs to do two weeks here. I guess I'm doing to try and make it work somehow. It's just hard on the bad days to keep perservering. It would be so much easier to give up... especially given the fact that I don't have a full supply anyhow. But luckily a good day usually follows the bad and I remember that some breastmilk is better than no breastmilk.


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## Nosy

Elisabeth, I don't know if this is an option, but I was able to get my insurance to pay for the domperidone by having the pharmacist run it through as a "compound". I only ended up paying $9 for a month's supply (much better than the $100 I was quoted).

One thing that seems to be making a difference for me is drinking a Kaliber (non-alcoholic) made by Guinness every night. People kept saying drink a dark beer but I was worried about the alcohol getting to my small babe. He's already getting domperidone, after all. I'm starting blessed thistle today (fenugreek was too troubling gastrointestinally). I try not to get my hopes up. Yesterday I only gave 4 oz of formula and I was so proud...baby steps, you know.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
I began stepping down off the domperidone because I can't afford it any longer. I already saw my supply decrease. I spent the last day and a half sobbing but there isn't any more money. My LC suggested getting the meds from New Zealand, I guess it's about a third of the cost. That being the case I'm thinking of borrowing yet more money to take one last shot. I can get a three month supply from New Zealand for what it costs to do two weeks here.

Have you checked out www.globaldrug.tv ? That may be the New Zealand source you already looked at....I'm so sorry you didn't get the information you needed to get the medicine you need cheaply!

Do you or your dh have a medical flexible spending account through work? This is something that could be deducted from any funds you have in there which would also give you a little bit of a price break.


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## Free49

elisabeth

I hope everything works out for you and that you can find a way to get your meds. Knowing that there is something that you need and are not able to have for your baby is a sickening feeling and I hope that everything comes together.

I really meant to post a couple of days ago, but just have no time. I took dd in for a weight check and she gained 5.5 oz in 11 days, so we are doing pretty well. I know that I will have to battle with the dr because she is slipping down the growth curve, but I will face that battle when I get there.

I really enjoyed the post by Aussiemum and the subsequent posts by Victorian regarding the decision to stop or continue bf. I continued with my first dd and she eventually weaned at 8 mo (I am sure it had to do with the bottle but what was I to do). I am now sitting here thinking about how easy it would be to give this one a bottle now. I feel like I am improving (with the help of fenugreek and oatmeal) but I do not know what the cost will be to the rest of my family. My first is just 23 mo old and my dh is constantly away (going on two weeks now) and the constant nursing and pumping are truly wearing on me. Much less I am doing all of this with a toddler wanting me as well and I am still going to have to justify myself to the drs etc. Much less dh has a hard time understanding why I need to spend half of my day nursing and pumping! He has been very supportive of bf, but would like me to put the family before my desire to bf? I need to get things in perspective I know. Thanks for letting me vent.

I have another question about the cause of low milk supply. How many of you started to cycle again after the birth of your babies. I started to cycle at 8 weeks with both of mine with the slow gaining issues starting right at the same time. Could it be some hormones causing low milk? Just another thought.

Caroline


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## Panserbjorne

Caroline,
It absolutely could be hormones! If you want you can get a screen done- testing for prolactin, estrogen and oxytocin levels. That would pretty much let you know for sure. Good luck.


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## Hey Mama!

Free49- to answer your question, I didn't get a cycle back until she was six months old. I am due for one now but now sign yet so I don't know if they are returning to normal yet.


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## Nosy

Elisabeth,

I was just shopping on the trading post and saw someone is selling domperidone for $15. Thought you might be interested based on your previous post.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=138747

Hope I linked that correctly.


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## karenge

Just wanted to say hi. I am having BIG supply issues, hating my body for its betrayal, not understanding why it refuses to make enough milk for my baby. I have tried everything. My baby is 2 1/2 months old. Today, I think I have finally accepted that i will never be able to nurse him exclusively and have even entertained the idea of giving up completely. But now i am thinking that maybe I should just nurse part time and be happy with that. Because the thougth of never nursing him again breaks my heart.
thanks for listening

karen


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## DaryLLL

karenge, glad you found the thread. I saw your sad post on the bfing bds and came over here to link this thread for you!

Then I started reading, and at the end, there you were already!

I did not have low supply. But I am a bfing counselor of 15 yrs and I just wanted to offer hugs and any support/info any of you might need. I think you are all heroes.

I just want to reiterate, any breastmilk is oceans better than none! Some adoptive moms jump through hoops to provide a few oz a day. It is worth it. If 2 days of colostrum gives a child immune support for 6 mos (and it does) imagine what a few oz or more of human milk a day does for your baby! Anecdote: I once knew a baby whose mom bfed him at first but her supply gradually went down as she nursed less and less. It wasn't until her baby was fully weaned to formula that it was found he had a serious heart ailment that required open heart surgery. So, he was able to avoid the surgery til he was a strong 6 mos old insted of needing it when younger and more vulnerable (we got donated human milk for him post-op and he healed so quickly, all his drs were amazed. I saw him 3 days after the surgery and his scar was already nearly healed!)

if you no longer have the time or stamina, it is also OK to quit. A newborn, a toddler, no dh at home and round the clock pumping/nursing/bottlefeeding is a Herculean task. But every mother defines her own bfing success. Listen to your heart and your children and thumb your noses at those who say it doesn't matter, you should quit, or "get over" your grief. Your feelings are normal!!! You decide what is best for you and your baby and children!

Best wishes, DaryLLL


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## Panserbjorne

Karen,
It looks like we're in the same boat. DS is seventeen months and DD just turned a month. I also have a husband who is working constantly-the sacrifice we made to have me be a stay at home mom. Pumping is near impossible with my son-he's into everything! But I just do whenever I can for as long as I can. I got a good tip to pump and leave the stuff out (don't refrigerate milk or clean the pump) and come back again even if it's only for a couple of minutes. I notice that's it's less stressful for me and I tend to get more. I also agree that every ounce of breastmilk is an ouce of victory. I have no idea how long I'll keep it up, but with my son I just kept promising to make it to different landmarks. Once I hit them it was easier to get to the next one and the next one and the next one. It's such a personal thing, but I just keep taking it one day at a time. We'll get there. PM me if you wanna chat and best of luck.

Thanks to everyone for the domperidone suggestions. I did order from New Zealand so cheers to another few months of at least partial supply!


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## aussiemum

Karen, big hugs to you. I think you probably already know that I so understand the feelings of your body letting you down- this was a huge issue for me. It sounds so silly, but as a fairly non-mainstream woman, with an educational background in biology & environmental sciences, I just could not understand why everybody else worked like a proper mammal & I did not! I had all sorts of strange ideas about Darwinian evolution & genetic selection, let me tell you, which now seem fairly daft to me.......... Of course, now I know that it's not just me, that many of us face low breast-milk supply & we just have to do the best we can.

I agree with Elisabeth, it's a good idea just to take one day at a time. I feel like I say this about everything, but some days are just better than others, KWIM? Some days you might make more milk, & some days less, but in the end your bub is getting some breastmilk everyday. And that, for us, is a huge accomplishment. Huge. Most days now I know that to be true, & I hope that taking on board that knowledge as soon as possible will spare others some of the miserable thoughts that I went through when I was so convinced that I was an absolute failure. You ladies have helped me to know better!!

I've more thoughts on this, but can't articulate them right now........ bad morning (unrelated to BF, thank goodness)...... my cranial hard-drive is shorting out I think.........


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## Victorian

does anyone else feel weird to read post about women that are weaning at the same age as your baby? (Let me just put in a disclaimer here - I am not bashing women for weaning - you do what you need to - I am talking about how it makes me feel)

For instance, I was recently reading a thread by a mother that has a 10 month old and is wondering what milk to give the baby as she is weaning him. I was just like wow! She is weaning? I am just now at place where it is not painful or discouraging to nurse my baby, and she is weaning!

It just feels weird. Does anyone else know what I mean?


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## Curious

It does amaze me to think that Dd is still nursing enthusiastically, at an age past where many kids have self weaned.


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## w&wmommy

I'm a low supply mom at the moment,. but it's my fault, easing on the pumping and supplementing. I hope to get my supply back up soon!!!


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## Bleu

Hi, all! I am no longer battling low supply and can't post at length now. But I did have HUGE supply problems for nearly the first 6 months of Bleuet's life. He is still happily nursing at over 1 year now, still consuming a great portion of his calories in breastmilk. I'm happy to PM or e-mail with anyone who needs support around low supply issues, and I'll post my story later (you can read snippets in my posts in the Breastfeeding forum, particularly in Getting Established).


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## bananasmom

I just happened to pop over here, didn't realize that this thread was here.

I am a quitter.







I also have hypoplastic breasts. DD#1 was dangerously dehydrated by day 4, had no wet or dirty diapers, despite my round-the-clock nursing. I kept up a supplementing regimen, and gave up. I was crushed. With dd#2, I had done a lot more research, and knew what was going on. I did a lot of weigh-nurse-weigh checks, and dd was getting about 1/2 ounce in each feeding. I have seen 3 IBCLC's in the last 2 years. I used an SNS and pumped at first. But, this became nearly impossible, while taking care of my other child as well. After 3 weeks, I let off the pumping and SNS. She comfort nursed for 7 more weeks, until she refused entirely.

I saw someone else ask about hypoplastic breasts... here is a post that I made in another message board, with a lot of links.

*Warning: there are pictures of breasts in some of the following links.*

Breastfeeding and underdeveloped (Hypoplastic) breasts

PCOS and Breastfeeding

Lactation failure due to insufficient glandular development of the breast.

Patient with insufficient glandular tissue experiences milk supply increase attributed to progesterone treatment for luteal phase defect.

Breast augmentation (won't help bf'ing, but has discussion on hyplasia)

Low milk supply related to breast shape?

PCOS, hypoplasia / Lisa Marasco, IBCLC

This one will give you a bunch of "huge boob" pop-ups, just warning you:
Tubular breast reconstructive surgery (again, won't help bf'ing, but has pictures and descriptions)


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## aussiemum

Thanks for those links, bananasmom. In some ways they bring up even more questions in my own head (which is a good thing







), but this in particular jumped out at me. From the PubMed site, abstract of Pediatrics. 1985 Nov;76(5):823-8.

Quote:

Preserving the "every woman can nurse" myth contributes to perpetuating a simplistic view of lactation and does a disservice to the small percentage of women with primary causes of unsuccessful lactation.
From 1985!!! I don't go to breastfeeding support sites unless by accident, but I just read on a site the other day how 'all women can breastfeed' & not believing this will 'set you up for failure'. I really, really wish that the very well-meaning BF folks would just stop for a minute & realise the damage that can be done to a woman's emotional health with these sort of blanket statements.......

And yet I perpetuate it, because I don't want to be seen as anti-BF. A friend's wife just had a baby a few weeks ago. I spoke to her on day 3 & she said the milk hadn't come in yet, but she knew it would & of course she'd have no problems with supply, it's just a matter of wanting to bf & being willing to stick with it.......... Of course I made noises of agreement, because no new mama wants to hear my crappy story at 3 days post-partum. But man, from the bottom of my heart, I really hope it works out for her like she wants it to.....


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## redsmama

I always knew that breast-feeding would come easy. I would serve whole foods, bake bread, and make ketchup. We would garden, paint, create, dance, read books, and learn to care about all people in the world, even those who seem to have more. But, that's not how it was.

Pregnancy was a breeze. My doctor was great. I gave birth at the hospital, as planned. I did not plan on staying for a week. Emma had come out grunting, like a baby gator. Not crying. Not pink. She could not fight the pneumonia. She needed oxygen and intravenous antibiotics. I could not hold her and put her to my breast. She seemed to accept the daily regimen of needle pricks. We hesitantly allowed the night nurse to wheel her from us to the intensive care nursery for the antibiotic IV. One night she returned, something was different. Her scalp and both feet and hands had been repeatedly pricked in and effort to start the IV. When her little veins protested the IV, she was given 3 shots in her thighs. Guilt.

Breast-feeding was the worst. I loved the idea of breast-feeding. My milk came in and I loved the feeling of breast-feeding. I slept with my baby, skin-to-skin. I nursed her often and dreamily watched her suck. She was with me all of the time. I drank plenty of water and ate well. I nursed in public and nursed in private. I felt powerful.

Then, Emma's rate of growth became a concern. She thinned out. Her eyes developed dark circles. She nursed continuously. She cried inconsolably before and after feeding. Over the course of three months, she dropped from above the 95 percentile in weight and height to closer to the 50th. She is from a family of big people. She was born 21.5 inches and 9 pounds. Her first month she gained 18 ounces. Her second month she gained 11 ounces. Her third month, she gained only 7 ounces, which might be enough if she was meant to be a smaller baby, but it was not enough for her. My breasts always seemed dry. They never leaked. I could barely squeeze any milk from my nipples, regardless of how long it since she last ate. She was starving.

Yes, I did everything advised to increase my milk supply. I don't want to remember it all now. I drank teas, relaxed, slept more, held her to my naked chest in bed for days, nursed in private, and hooked up to the Medela pump-n-style and later the industrial breast pump for additional stimulation. The pumps could not pull more milk from breast than Emma could drink. I pumped until the elasticity left my nipples and they hung long, permanently. I only got milk if I waited several hours after Emma's last feeding. By that time, Emma was ready to nurse again but when she tried, the milk was gone. It was now in the bottle. It felt wrong to pump my breasts only to serve her a bottle.

Everyone had advice. Maybe the doctor was wrong and she was growing well enough. Maybe she was meant to be thin. Maybe she had colic. Maybe she was a lazy sucker. Maybe I was still doing something wrong. Maybe there was something else I could do.

There was something else I could do and I did it. The fourth month, I began to offer her formula-just one ounce after she had nursed as long as she wanted. Emma quickly drank that ounce and then cried. Was she gassy or still hungry? I gave her more formula and when she finished that, she cried. Five ounces later, she fell asleep. I know she was hungry. I continued to breast-feed her first, then offer formula. That month, Emma gained more weight than her first three months combined. She gained 42 ounces. At six months, we stopped breast-feeding because Emma did not desire my breast. She did not search for my breast. She loved her bottle.


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## Nosy

Redsmom, my heart aches at your story. Finding this tribe has helped me with my struggle, though. At least I'm not the only one out there who has these issues who has tried everything. I do wish people would be more understanding that there are select few of us out there who have tried everything and aren't just giving up easily.

At the co-op Saturday I found another book about herbs for women. It mentioned borage (something I hadn't tried) to increase supply so of course I had to pick some up. I came home and did research only to find it causes liver damage, so I guess I'll be returning it. Every galactalogue seems to have some kind of side effect. My DS is on a growth spurt right now and I've gone from feeding maybe 1 oz of formula a feeding to 2 oz. I had hoped we had plateaued at 1 oz/feeding, but now it's double. I think he might still be getting more BM than formula, and I hope to keep it that way. Every day is a struggle.


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## Panserbjorne

I have great news! I FINALLY got my supply up. It took taking a ridiculous amount of domperidone (I am topped out at 160 mg. a day!) and stopping nursing because my daughter was nursing in a way that actually prevented my supply from increasing. My LC is truly a genius. So now I have a full supply and we are back to nursing exclusively. I never realized you could safely up the dosage of domperidone, but that was definitely my turning point. Good luck to all the hard working and dedicated mamas on this thread-I'm sure I'll see you elsewhere on the board.


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## Victorian




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## aussiemum

That is wonderful news Elisabeth! I'm so glad things are working better for you now!


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## Curious

Redsmom, Emma loves YOU because you are doing what a mom is supposed to do - give your baby milk. Sometimes we can't choose where it comes from.


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## Free49

I am so happy for you elisabeth. I can only imagine how exciting it is to have a full supply. Do you have to continue to take the domperidone?

I am sad though, I had to change my first formula poop last night. It made me cry. I do not want to bring everyone down, but I do not want to bother my friends with all of this feeding stuff so I have turned here(this would be the second time in two years they would have heard the exact same story same thing happened with dd #1). We went to the doctor and dd is falling below that stupid growth curve to the 5% percentile and my ped recommended that we give her some supplements. She is such a happy baby and now with the supplements she is even happier, which kills me! My dd is now actually sleeping after a supplement of 5 oz. I always thought she was just a light sleeper (she is 4 mo old and really only would nap for 45 min maybe twice a day, but she has an older sister who wakes her). But now she is loving this bottle thing and last night she would not nurse I had to get up and make her a bottle and then she played and laughed and went back to sleep. I feel like such a failure!! What would my poor babies have gone through if I did not have a bottle and formula to give them. Why is my body failing me - why cant I feed my baby. ugh sorry this is so down I am just torn up about this right now.

I have tried the more milk plus tincture and have been really sick with the flu/cold and I just feel my supply slipping away so fast.

thanks for listening everybody,
Caroline


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## deymm

Caroline,

Have you tried an at-the-breast supplementer?

I use the Lact-Aid (www.lact-aid.com) which gives my baby the supplement he needs, but keeps him at the breast.

Hang in there, we all know the rollercoaster of emotions and the heartache you're going through. In the end, though, we need to feed our babies!


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## Victorian

I am so sorry that you are feeling this way. Rest assured that if you fed your baby corn mush she would still love you. If you didn't have formula, a nearby woman would help you. Don't feel that you can not come here and cry on our shoulders, we are here for you. You are a good mama and a good person. I know that it hurts to think that they are loving on that bottle when your perfectly lovely breasts are sitting there like wall flowers. That said do you want some ideas?

Are you taking a decongestent for the cold? That will impact your supply.

Are you drinking A LOT of water? Drink more.

Do you have a SNS? Can you finger feed? Maybe your daughter is not one that can go back and forth easily. You might have to feed without a bottle (PITA)

not a popular idea here on MDC, but how do you feel about solids? Dr. Jack Newman that I believe is the BEST lactation advisor out there suggests starting solids to boost weight gain in older (4+ months) babies. If you are interested, I could find a link for you. I started DS on solids at 4 months. He still nurses at least 10 a day and takes the occasional bottle of formula or EBM if I have it. But, he is still a slow weight gainer.

I can't remember if you have tried Domperidone? Would you consider chinese herbs and accupunture? That really helped me. We have the Oriental Medicine College here in Portland so the price was reasonable (but boy were those herbs NASTY)








s again

Victorian


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## Free49

I do not have the SNS but I think I will try that and see how it works. I think about everything I do in terms of how it will effect my milk supply it is so trying. The mothers milk plus is NASTY - but I think I will contact a local acupuncturist and see how much that would run. I have not taken domperidone yet either so I will try to get a hold of my midwife and see if I can get an rx for that (we do not have insurance and I do not know how much that will cost - I went with the tincture first) Ugh thanks for the support.
Caroline


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## deymm

Caroline,

Are you in the US or Canada?

If you're in the US, you can order domperidone from New Zealand without a script. I use www.globaldrug.tv

Hang in there and remember that your baby loves you no matter how much MM you produce.


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## Panserbjorne

Hi everyone. i spoke too soon and now I'm back. So here's my deal...IF I pump around the clock I have a fullish supply (30-34 oz.) but, if i let DD nurse It drops away almost completely. It took me a week to build my supply back up to where it is, and that won't be sufficient once she starts growing which incidentally she's not yet. She's now eight weeks and 1.5 lbs over birth weight. This is so FRUSTRATING. I guess we'll just be a bottle feeding family. I am giving it until she's three months but that's it. I'm totally neglecting DS to do all this pumping as it is and for what? She goes to craniosacral therapy as well as physical therapy and she still can't nurse. This is totally breaking my heart. On top of this we are filing for bankruptcy and selling our house to pay for her treatments which aren't covered by our polly-wally-crappy insurance. And I'm totally depressed and can't afford a therapist. Unfortunately the herbal stuff just isn't working. I keep telling myself it has to get better...right? It sure doesn't feel like it can get much worse. I'm glad that I can share with all of you. Thanks for all the good thoughts that came two weeks ago-they were totally appreciated.


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## Victorian

Hang in there momma! It sure sounds like your baby is having a tough time getting the milk from the breast. My son went to cranial therapist and then to a chiropractor. The chiropractor discover something that everyone else missed - dislocated hip and a rib out. Hard to nurse when you are in pain. Have you thought about seeing someone to rule out a neurological problem (don't mean to scare you, but I had a friend whose baby couldn't nurse and they later found a problem - so I thought that I would mention it)

I hear you about the financial crap! We figured that we spent about $1400 on lactation. But know it is worth the money! We are always teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, we also pay that price for the children. We both work part-time (dh more than me) so that we can have time as a family.

Have you tried MotherWort? It is an herb that my midwives recommended to me and I think that it really helped. I also can't live without Rescure Remedy and Emergence-C. Are you eating well and getting enough protein? I know that it is hard to take care of yourself with a young one, but if mama ain't happy then no one is happy.

I will be thinking of you, hang in there.

Victorian


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## aussiemum

just wanted to let you all know I'm still here- just very busy at the mo. Big, big hugs to Caroline, Elisabeth.... so much more to say, but I've gotta get the kids to swimming lessons. I ..... feel your pain so much...... it's just not fair, I want to throw a temper tantrum over this BF'ing business sometimes.....

I don't know how to word it so i'll leave it there..... something like it's okay if you have to use bottles, it's okay to use formula if you need to..... damn, that's not very eloquent.... it will all be okay.... be gentle to yourselves, you are important too......


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## Panserbjorne

thanks for the kind words, amd Victorian-yes I've tried motherwort, vitamin C and I do eat pretty darn well. DD's problem (discovered by a chiropractor) is that she had a spinal injury from birth. Hence all the therapy. Due to nerve damage from disc compression her mouth doesn't open symmetrically and therefore she cant get a good latch. Her chin drops to the right, and there isn't a good seal and virtually no milk transfer. She's getting slowly better, but her therapist believes it will be a long road. Because of the injury her parasympathetic nerve system has been disabled and she doesn't digest food well. the bright side is that we kept at it and didn't just quit and throw in the towel. She needs whatever milk I can provide more than ever-even though she only takes about 20 oz. a day.


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## Free49

Hugs all around

I am sorry that everything is coming down on you right now elisabeth, but we are all here to lend an ear and support. All this stess in our lives is probably a factor (along with everything else!) with low milk supply.
I have come to terms that we will be a bottle family. My husband has been away now for gosh something like five weeks and away before that for 3 or 4 weeks so it is nice not to have a hungry baby and a two year old to deal with at the moment. I am going to the midwife on Monday for some blood work but everyone (midwife and two lactaction coun.) have concluded that my problems are from hormones. I have cycled at exactly the same time with both dd's around seven weeks although exclusively bfing with supply issues directly following. They have all given me the option of domperidone (sp) but at the moment it just does not seem $ available and to be honest I am spent. It was just two years ago I was going through the same thing with dd #1 and at the moment we are moving/looking for a job for dh etc. So am pumping and putting her to the breast as much as I can and bottlefeeding the majority of the time, it is okay I have given and will give her what I can and move forward. It is nice to spend time with my girls now playing and interacting instead of stressing about feeding and taking treatments. Thanks you guys for all of the support and for listening and sharing your stories it means so much. I have typed and cried here many times!
Thanks
caroline

ps. elisabeth I will keep you in my pumping thoughts and healthy baby thoughts and just know that we are here for you.


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## aussiemum

Free49-








. I found it so hard when I finally accepted that I too would be a bottle feeder (twice). It sounds like you have given it a lot of thought, & have come to a decision that is best for both you & your family..... I remember taht feeling with my 2nd child, when I finally started supplementing. I remember feeling like I could actually play with & care for my 2 yr old again, felt like I could leave the house without worrying that I'd get stuck in traffic with a starving baby ready for a three hour feed or something..... mostly though, he slept better & didn't seem so desperately hungry anymore.

Victorian mentioned starting solids earlier than 6 months-- just wanted to add that I did that too; 4 months I think for DD, and at 3 months (just a little) for DS. Sounds so young, but at that age he was sitting up, holding his head steady, & very engaged with the world. Don't know if I've told this story yet, but at Christmas-time (DS was just 3 mo) I had some cold turkey breast on my plate for lunch, & DS was sitting on my lap. He then leaned over & swiped a chunk of turkey off my plate & shoved it in his mouth. True story. I was stunned, but decided he was pretty clear on what he wanted, so i ground a bit up & gave it to him to taste. I supplemented with formula more frequently after that. Funny, he's still like that..... (not swiping food off my plate!) very clear in what he likes & doesn't like........


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## Victorian

Free49 - congratulations for nursing as long as you did. I know that you made a lot of sacrifices for that breastmilk. You did a wonderful job and your baby will be better for all the milk. (I am unsure whether you are weaning completley).. Your a bf success, you gave that baby all you could.


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## julie128

Anyone use Bright Beginnings? I have a bunch of coupons. PM me your address, and I will send them.


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## deymm

I have a BB coupon or two also that I'd be willing to send out.

I'm always on the lookout for Similac checks/coupons, so if you have any....


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## Sleepymama

I'm in this tribe too. I have an almost 18 month old DS who was born with a congenital heart defect and spent 3 weeks in NICU, 2 open heart surgeries at 2 weeks and 3 months...anyway, I never developed a full supply, and he did finally learn to BF (SNS, lots of practice) but we always supplemented. I took domperidone for 10 months but when I started getting just drops with the pump (instead of an ounce per breast) I stopped pumping and taking it, and just sort of gave up trying to keep my supply and switched to comfort nursing. At about 14 months we switched to whole milk and he's been doing great. He is still nursing, a LOT in fact, he just gets a few drops a day I think. I never hear him swallow. He has never taken a pacifier. I was only making about 16oz a day at my maximum. I was never engorged, so I think the consensus of the LCs I've talked to is that because of our traumatic birth & stress my body just didn't make the hormones it needed to make milk.

I do understand how awful it feels too--I took so many tiny little bottles with about a teaspoon in them into the NICU to feed him, and I felt like a huge failure. It was months and months before I could even think about BF without crying.

We are TTC again and I am so worried that it wasn't just stress, it was something wrong with me and I'll have low supply again







Not to mention worrying about the baby's heart & health.


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## Nosy

Victorian, can you tell more about the acupuncture. I haven't tried this yet (have never tried acupuncture), but I'm interested.

Nosy, still limping along and supplementing my almost 4 mths DS


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## Free49

Hope everyone is doing good we are in the process of moving and things are crazy, but I had a couple of questions for you guys.

First, I have been looking into the domperidone and I had one LC tell me not to order from New Zealand because she had a "bad experience". She commented that she used domperidone compounded from a local pharmacy and saw the increase within three days then went the less expensive route (compounded domperidone here is about $7.00 or 8.00 a pill) by ordering from New Zeland and saw no increase so she went back to the compounded version with better results. I know this is jumbled sorry the pills were the same dosage as well. Anybody heard of this?

Aussiemum, we are starting solids and dd is loving it! I am so glad you mentioned this and she was starting to try and swipe food from my plate so I tried (she was constipated from formula as well so...) I am working to maintain a meak supply by pumping and hopefully getting the domperidone soon and between solid food and bf and maybe one or two supplements I think we can make it we will see.

I had some other questions but I forgot them now so I will try to write later.

best regards
caroline

Tansi Nola 4.5 mo old and Kaelle Shea 2 years


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## beaconlighthero

I'm glad I found this thread. My son I breast fed successfully, but I was a WAHM when he was born and could nurse him more. DD is a preemie and I was getting good milk while she was in the NICU but slowly it started getting less and less when I would pump. She nursed for a while, but is now on strike and now I hardly get anything. It's so hard to keep the milk supply up, it's not really convienent to pump at work.


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## aussiemum

Hello all- had a bit of a panic yesterday with all this moving of the tribe threads. I sure hope the mods don't move this particular thread over to the breastfeeding boards- not sure I could cope with that!

Anywho, Free49, I hadn't heard of domperidone when I was struggling with milk supply- no idea what sort of compound the drug is actually.

Beaconlighthero- welcome! Just a few thoughts- have you tried any of the herbs used for increasing supply? I ask because since you were able to bf your first child, then maybe the herbs will be enough to boost your supply this time around?? You'll have to pump as well, but it might be worth a go.... tricky, I know, with work & all, but if you start getting that full breast sensation (from the herb boost) then it might feel more productive to pump at work, if you know what I mean.... does that make any sense??

finishing off with a big round of


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## beaconlighthero

I have'nt tried the herbs. I eat oatmeal, but that is not doing much for me. I was put on Raglan or whatever and all it made me do is get really sleepy. The zoloft makes me sleepy enough, could not deal with it.


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## aussiemum

Yeah, a good mate of mine takes zoloft, & man, she can just about fall asleep anywhere- so IKWYM! I think I used to make straight fenugreek tea, sweetened with honey, & that did help increase the full sensation in my breasts. I just never had much luck with extracting the precious stuff, but if you've got a good pump, I reckon it's worth a go...... Good luck with it, wishing all of you the best..... I'm bailing out on MDC for a while... who knows how long.... maybe a week, maybe a month...... maybe.... I'll be thinking of you all....


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## Victorian

Bye Aussiemum. you will be missed around here. I hope that you come back soon.

Is everything alright? Did something happen?

Hopefully you are just taking an electronic break.

Victorian


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## Hey Mama!

Hey all! I posted on here a while back about my breastfeeding struggles. I was on vacation for 6 weeks and during that time my dd self weaned. I know they say it is almost never happens that a babe under 1 will self wean but I think the formula supplementing did us in, just like I was afraid it would. I really wanted to go to 1 year and beyond, but 8.5 months is better then nothing, right?


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## deymm

Hi Brandi!

Congrats on making it to 8.5 months! Think of all the MM your little one got from you!


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## Victorian

it is so wonderful that you nursed your baby for 8.5 months! Good job mama. You should be very proud of yourself!

Victorian


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## Free49

a little late but bye aussiemum... you will be missed I always appreciated your words... thanks again

congrat brandi ... my first self weaned at 8 mo and I agree it was probably because of all the supplements. My second is on the way to weaning and is only 4.5 mo some of it is me and some of it is her, but we are limping along although I had to give up pumping. We are moving and staying with relatives and the pump got sent ahead, which was not supposed to happen. The milk is going fast cry cry. See you guys

Caroline


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## Mother2Amaya

Of course I need to join this thread!









I've had a horrible pregnancy from the start. I am hypothyroid with asthma and allergies. I had gallbladder removal surgery at 22 weeks of the pregnancy. I was 4 days overdue and because I'd had a broken tailbone in the past, I had HORRIBLE back labor and was just plain miserable, begging for induction. I tried all the natural remedies to get things going and nothing worked.







:

When I did go into labor, I labored FAST. They asked me, during a contraction, how I intended to feed. I remember screaming "bottle! bottle!" but honestly felt so bad after I said it and the contraction came down. I even eventually latched her in the hospital. At 7 cm, I was begging for an epidural and actually got it. An hour or so later, i started vomiting profusely and my blood pressure dropped and they lost Amaya's heart rate. They all rushed in and eventually stabilized us but in the end she was face-up. I got to 9 cm and she slid back to 7 cm. I had to get an unplanned C-section.









She had meconium so they did vigorous suctioning of her.









I had her at 5:08 and didn't get to even touch her until 7:30 because I was so drugged and the NICU had her, then they gave her those horrid shots, bathed her, etc. At least my husband stayed by her side the whole time.

So they had her on RTF formula in the hospital, sent us home with powder. put her on Enfamil Lipil without asking me. That was the beginning of our trouble.









Now I'm trying to increase my supply, get her to latch (horrible task!), etc. I've had some horrible LC's advising me but i've kept it up and am starting to get enough now to give her a bottle every couple of days of it.


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## aussiemum

I am such a drama queen. As if I could stay away from this place for more than a week.







:

Mother2Amaya- wow, honey, you've sure had a rough ride.























I had a difficult birth with my first, though not nearly so tough as you, & it sure doesn't help, does it, when you're trying to establish a good nursing relationship? Hang in there & have a fair go at it, & be sure to come here for support when you need it.


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## Victorian

WELCOME BACK! Saw your posts in A&W&P. I knew you'd be back.....


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## Vixxen

Hi! I'm Drema and I have a beautiful 5 month old daughter Kaylee. We have struggled from the very beginning with a low milk supply. We have tried everything from pumping after each feeding to fenugreek, mother's milk tea and countless other things that I've forgotten. Currently I'm on domperidone, but I think it is losing it's effectiveness. Has anyone found that it doesn't work as well for them after a while? My wonderful lactation consultant has loaned me the book "The Nursing Mother's Herbal" which has some recipes in it for herbal teas and such. I think I'm going to try those if I can find a source for the fresh herbs. I'm so glad I found this thread. It helps to know that I'm not the only one that has struggled so much with bf...not that I'm glad that anyone else has ever had to go through such heartache. I hope to make it to a year nursing, but some days when she refuses to nurse it makes me wonder why I'm still doing this. I don't recall who said this on the thread but I remember someone saying that they had hypoplasia or insufficient glandular tissue. I've been diagnosed with that also and I wonder if there was anything in particular that helped you increase your supply. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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## karenge

Hi Drema, It is always nice to read other's stories and know that we are not alone. It seems like most of the stories I read are either those of moms with newborns or those with toddlers who overcame their low supply problems. i think you are the first I have read with a child slightly older who is still struggling. I am so sorry you are having these struggles, but it is good to see your story because I am in the same boat. My Adam is almost 5 months old and we have had problems from the beginning too. My story is too long to tell, suffice it to say that i too have tried everything (domperidome, reglan, fenugreek pills and tincture, blessed thistle, countless hours of pumping..........and so much else its all a blur) and nothing has worked. I have often thougth iwas insane to keep BFing but its like i an addicted, i cant stop. I have actually gone a few days without BFing here and there but have always decided to give it another go. His longest nursing session is in the morning, abt 10 minutes on one side and 5 on the other. I have rented a medela scale and found that he gets almost 2 oz at that time. thenrest of the day he gets less than an oz. At every feeding I just nurse him as long as he will ( which is never very long) and then i give him a bottle. Its very depressing, I am even on zoloft to combat those feelings. Luckily, I have a very supportive dh and very good friends who support and commend my efforts. But i still feel a bit nutty at times LOL
anyway, its all worth it, my feeling is that every drop our babies get is worth its weight in gold.
Please do let us know if those teas work. I may go looking for that book tomorrow.
Karen


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## Vixxen

Hi Karen,

So our babies must be pretty close in age....my Kaylee was born Feb 7th. When was your Adam born and is this your first baby? As far as every drop of breastmilk worth it's weight in gold I totally agree. Something my LC told me a while back that keeps me going on days when I feel like Kaylee is getting hardly anything from me is that just 8 ounces a day gives her all the antibodies she needs from me. So I feel that if I can get that in her then we are doing great. Now that she is on solids twice a day I don't know if she is getting quite as much but every little bit helps. Do you know why you have a low supply? I think it helps me to actually be able to put a reason behind my low supply, but at the same time I hate my body for failing me....if that makes sense. I look in the mirror and all I see are these breasts that aren't adequate enough to fully feed my sweet baby. Oh well, she's happy and growing so that's what matters. Here is a link to that book I mentioned earlier: http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBMayJune04p100.html It's a great book with some really good info in it..hopefully some of it will help me. Have a great night!

Drema


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## Quirky

Hi Drema,









A couple of thoughts:

1) What dosage of domperidone are you on? It's possible you may need to take more (and it's very safe).

2) Goat's rue is supposedly good for helping to grow breast tissue - it's available in tincture form at www.motherlove.com, either on its own or in the More Milk Special Blend.

3) Mountain Rose Herbals is an awesome source for organic herbs - I just ordered a bunch. They have a great reputation. www.mountainroseherbs.com


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## Nosy

Quirky, thank you. I didn't know goat's rue was supposed to grow breast tissue. I think that's the only herb I haven't tried! I think I'll be ordering some.

Vixxen, welcome. My DS was born 2/26, and I also suffer from insufficient glandular tissue. We're still fighting the battle. We think he gets about 50% from me since he takes about 2 oz of formula after each feeding from me (he's only 13.5 pounds). I think I've finally accepted the formula, though some days I do still feel depressed and frustrated, especially with my friends for whom bfing has been easy. I have Herbs for the Childbearing Year, and none of her suggestions for increasing supply (aside from fenugreek) helped. I'm still on domperidone, and while I don't find the effectiveness decreasing over time, I feel an immediate supply drop if I skip a dose. I so wanted to wean off it, but I'm going to stay on it at least a few more months. I have hopes I won't have as many troubles with my next child, knowing all that I do now about increasing supply.

Good luck to you!


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## weesej

Joining in here. DD is 8 months and our supply issues started about 6 weeks ago when I became pregnant again! First sign I was pregnant was that my supply dropped. Tried all the tricks I know, long story but now we are supplementing 8-12 oz of formula a day. I held off so long and when I finally told DH to get her a bottle she drained 4 oz in about 2 min. she was so hungry. In any case she still nurses 3-4 times during the day and we co-sleep and nurse all night. I am worried she will wean before I am ready, knowing my supply will get worse not better and I still will switch back to colostrum in a couple months. Hoping she will keep going. I guess I am just getting a good blend,LOL, DS was bottlefed, DD #1 was BF no bottles ever and weaned at a little passed 2 years and now we are supplementing with DD#2. I know this is the right and best choice, heck I'm not gonna starve my girl to not buy Similac you know, still feel sad when I see her with a bottle.


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## Vixxen

Quirky~ I have tried goat's rue, but only for a short time. Is it something that I should notice an immediate change or does it take a while to increase your milk supply? I just went to motherlove.com website and noticed they have a More Milk special blend especially for women with special needs (ie adoptive moms, moms that have had breast reduction surgery, moms with PCOS). I think that is definitely what I would need so I will probably order it and see if it helps. I just got off the phone with Motherlove and the lady I spoke with said that you can usually notice a difference within 24 hours, but different women respond to it in different ways. I would be really interested to see if someone that has insufficient glandular tissue if they were any more successful with their second child than the first. If there is anyone out there like that please post and tell us your story.


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## DaryLLL

Vixxen,








:








:

I love your real name and your screen name!

Hugs to all you dedicated mamas!







You are all heros!


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## Vixxen

Thanks for the warm welcome here! Quirky~ I meant to tell you in my last post that I take 20mg of domperidone 3 times a day. The rx I have says 4 times a day but I really have a hard time taking it that often, plus cost is a factor here too.


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## DetroitMom

Joining the group to add my support and story.

I had never heard of hypoplastic breast before this thread but that might have been my problem. I wear not near full A cup and never got any bigger when I was preggo or nursing (I thought big breasts were suppost to be an extra plus of being a mom







). I am also a full time WOTH mom - no choice there.

I tried all the herbs and pills but they didn't work and would gave DS and I upset stomacks. DS and I nursed mostly just for comfort until he self weaned at 9 months. Now I was very lucky because both my sisters and I were preggo at the same time and we gave birth within 4 months of each other. My middle sister did not even really try to latch because of the problems she had with her first DD but she had a huge supply just pumping. She pumped for a year with her first and a year with the second also. Her supply was so large that her dd could not eat it all, so my sister would give me her extra frozen EBM. Over the course of 6 or 7 months she gave me about 5 Gallons







of both fresh and frozen EBM. ( She called herself Elsie the Human Cow) I pumped 3 times a day at work until I just coulded justify it, 2 or 3 oz day only and that was pumping at least 3 times a day for 30 minutes (yes, I have a great boss to let me do that)

Sometimes I fell guilty because I feel I was a breastfeeding success. I did everything I could, didn't just give-up without a fight, don't believe feeding fomula will effect my child's abilty to have a healthy life. Sure maybe I could have tried ten more things to increase my supply but instead I spent that time and energy playing and bonding with my child. He is healthy, happy and attached and in the long run that is what makes me a good mom.


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## DetroitMom

Sorry double post - computer error


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## Vixxen

DetroitMom, Thanks for your story. From what you described it is quite possible that you have hypoplastic breasts. One characteristic of them is they don't increase in size while pregnant or nursing. That is fabulous that you were able to get your sister's extra EBM. I have been fortunate to get some of my girlfriends EBM. I am thankful for every ounce of it and luckily Kaylee drinks it great.


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## Panserbjorne

Vixxen,
just to let you know I didn't see an increase in supply until I was taking 40 mg. four times a day. I was up to 180 mg at my highest. I couldn't afford it from the pharmacy so I bought from New Zealand which was far cheaper than in the states. I paid $150 for 12,000 mg-that includes shipping.
I don't have a huge amount of time but I just wanted to put this out there as a former member of this tribe for anyone geographically close to me: I am crrently pumping ten ounces a day more than I need. I am not a vegetarian, but I eat totally organically. I had a natural homebirth with no drugs and the only meds I do are my dosages of domperidone. If I could share with anyone to decrease the amount of, or eliminate formula I would love to. I had milk donated to me, and it was the best gift ever. I am in CT. If anyone needs it, it's here.
Keep up all the great work ladies!


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## Victorian

please come and join my party! It is DS's 1st birthday - we made it nursing!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...52#post1755252

Victorian


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## beaconlighthero

:


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## anabean

Quote:

I was taking 40 mg. four times a day. I was up to 180 mg at my highest.
phew! i thought i was the only one taking such high doses...
i'm on 150mg/day, and hanging in there. i did go up to 180 on several occasions. it's strange, my pumping output fluctuates so much, i never know why! it drives me nuts. i do think i've become more resistant to it, though. i'd like to slowly wean to 120mg/day, so i can go up again if i need to. but weaning off of it is SO hard without hurting supply....

*sigh*
when will this "why me" feeling go away?


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## Panserbjorne

IT's so hard, and I don't get it either. I mean I have all these peopl ein my life who were trying to get their milk to go down because nursing is "disgusting." I was here being called a fanatic (by friends and family) because I am on meds, pumping every hour and a half for a half an hour, using an SNS, a lact-aid, a haberman feeder and bawling all the time. Of course my DD has a spinal cord injury that is preventing her from nursing even though my supply is now up. To make it worse (have I said this before?) insurance would pay for a surgery to help her, but she was so weak that docs said that she may not survive surgery. Ummm, well, then, we're not DOING surgery. We found a physical therapist who specializes in special needs children and he is doing wonders. But insurance still won't pay. So, we've sold our house and declared bankruptcy to pay for her treatments. I still haven't gone a day without crying. I totally know the why me feeling. Sorry, I shouldn't even be posting here because I'm technically no longer a low-supply mama, but I get what you're feeling. Keep up all the good work mamas! I think about all of you while I'm pumping...


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## Stream

It warms my heart to find this thread.









I was (finally) diagnosed with breast hypoplasia when my daughter was about 3 months old. By then, we had a small tongue-tie clipped, many many LC consults, tried Reglan, tried every herb under the sun, pumped like crazy, etc., etc., all without improving my supply to the point I could stop supplementing with formula (which I hated!). I felt defeated. Breastfeeding was something I had taken for granted since I was bf'ed until I was 3 and my mom always talked so positively about it. It was such a shock, and so heartwrenching. And, to make matters worse, I had a horrendous pediatrician who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about, and thought I should just be happy that formula was an option.

My diagnosis-- though it meant there was probably nothing to be done-- was so comforting. So much made sense. Like many of you, my breasts grew only slightly during pregnancy. My breasts are the tell-tale conical shape. I have a wide flat space between them. When my husband and I were--finally-- told about hypoplasia, we finally knew the demon we were up against and it all just clicked. Somehow, knowledge is empowering, even when it shuts off some possibilities, you know?

We had a beautiful nursing relationship until my daughter was 13 months old. Then, during a cold when she was uninterested in nursing anyway, I gently encouraged her to wean. I was ready. I felt exhausted-- physically, mentally. And she was fine. We supplemented with formula until she was a year old, then transitioned to milk. I never was able to breastfeed exclusively.

I feel healed now (she's almost three), but it's a fairly recent feeling. I thought I was ok before, but last summer my (well-intentioned) mom said some things that brought back some of the anger and sadness from those low times. I went through a series of tests in the fall to rule out any contributing factors to my supply issues. My doctors have told me there's nothing to be done to improve my odds the next time around, aside from the general statistic that most hypoplastic women have more success with subsequent children. Nonetheless, I started acupuncture this January-- turning to Eastern medicine when there were no more answers in Western. My acupuncturist is ready to see me again when our next baby is born and to help however he can.

We're now trying to conceive our next child. A wonderful, amazing friend has offered to pump and donate milk for us, so it looks like no matter what, we'll have a much better supplementation option. I'm glad to be going into the next pregnancy/birth aware of the challenges that lie ahead. I feel empowered-- we did this once, under much worse circumstances (lack of information), and I know we can do it again.

There was so little information out there three years ago. Thank you all for putting it out there now. You are all incredibly strong.


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## Vixxen

You know I read a few days ago that women with hypoplastic breasts are extremely rare, but after reading all of your posts it makes me wonder if there are more of us out there than statistics say.

Stream it's good to know that women with hypoplastic breasts have better success with subsequent children. That really gives me hope for the future.


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## dscokween

Hi Everyone









I just wanted to jump in a post, too. My daughter is 18 months old today, and I just finished nursing her for a bit...she is starting to self-wean, but we do nurse a few times a day still.

I had a breast reduction when I was 20 (I'm 34 now) and didn't really think about the ramifications of nursing. People told me I might not be able to nurse... I thought that meant that I either could or couldn't. When I saw colostrum in the final few weeks of pregnancy, I thought it wouldn't be a problem.

We had the typical struggles low milk supply moms had at first...rapid weight loss in the first week, etc. I had so many LC's and LLL leaders all telling me how to make my daughter thrive. The best thing that happened to me was getting a copy of Diane West's "Defining Your Own Success" about breastfeeding after a reduction. I've recommended it to several people including moms who have adopted babies and low milk supplies, as the techniques apply to those groups too.

I used an SNS for a while, and was able to eventually maximize my milk supply so I no longer needed it. I took 160 mg of domperidone a day, 16 tablets of Fenugreek, 8 of Blessed Thistle, Marshmallow and I forget the last one I took...maybe goat's rue, but I think it was something else...I check and find out. I order my domperidone from New Zealand from globaldrug, too. It's by far the least expensive place to find it.

So I belong to an email list for moms who are bfar'ing, and lots of discussions have come up over time there. I think it's interesting that someone mentioned compounded domperidone is better than the blister packs...the general consensus is that the blister packs have better efficacy from that email list.

I also had a massive mastitis infection in January, and had to have surgery to remove it. We saw a huge drop in nursing since I was in the hospital 4 days then. I'm still nursing, but have mostly weaned off the domperidone and all the herbs. I just want you all to know I know what you're going through, and how hard it can be to feel the pressure to breastfeed, even if you aren't part of a natural parenting community. I'd love to be able to offer support for anyone who needs it







I feel like I've been through the breastfeeding ringer, and we survived and are still working at it here and there.

Just also wanted to give elisabeth a quick note to ask how things are going and if you are still b/fing? Domperidone takes 5-6 weeks to maximize in the system..I had to use an SNS for a while even though I was taking the max dose. Sounds like you had good results, then got discouraged. Where are you at now?


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## aussiemum

I'd have to agree that in comparison, it was easier to bf my second child- at the very least he did not have such a huge weight drop as my first did. He held steady, not really growing, but that was such an improvement, believe me. Sometimes I think if I had six kids, it's like my breasts would finally get used to the idea. (not planning that, BTW







i'm not _that_ keen!) And my nipples definitely looked more 'nursable' with my second. So yes, I do think there's hope that low-supply first time mums will have it a bit easier the second time around. Of course, with second & more babies, there are older sibs to consider, & they do take up time that you would have spent one on one with your first, KWIM? But I did get pretty good at doing lots of things with one hand (playdough, colouring, rolling a ball on the floor, etc.). BTW, my kids are 2 years, 2 months apart in age.

And finally, a friendly welcome







to new members on the thread.

oh & last but not least....... elisabeth.... 10 extra ozs a day?? You champion, you!!!


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## Panserbjorne

Thanks for thinking of me. We are still nursing, and it's going pretty well. Selkie is still having trouble because she's so tired. Ten extra ounces sounds like alot-well it IS alot, but the problem is that she should be taking almost forty ounces at this point daily and I'm lucky if I can get twenty five into her. She just doesn't really want to eat. I am really hoping that turns around very quickly, but I'm doing all I can. On the domperidone front I am also going to say that the blister packs seemed to be effective for us. I have been on it for ten or eleven weeks now and the first four were with compunded stuff. I saw a big difference with the new domperidone from New Zealand. I also saw a nice increase when at ten weeks I began adding hops and oatmeal to my diet. They seemed to work better in conjunction with the domperidone. I also did acupuncture and that seemed to help. Keep up the good work-I know for me even though we're not nursing 100% every little bit is a great victory for me.


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## Vixxen

Elisabeth,

When you received the domperidone from NZ how long did it take to get to you? The reason I ask is I ordered some yesterday and I'm hoping it gets to me before I run out. I'm afraid that what little supply I've been able to build up will go away if I have to stop. Also how did you add hops to your daily diet? What form are you getting them in? As far as the oatmeal do you eat that as the instant oatmeal or the kind that you have to cook? I've switched to the traditional kind and I don't know that I've noticed a difference.


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## Panserbjorne

Drema,
The domperidone took about two weeks to get to me. Once it was ten days, once it was twelve. If you need some to tide you over let me know. i can send it to you this weekend. Hops I get dried and brew as an infusion. You can also drink one dark beer a day. For the oats, I get organic steel cut oats. They take about fifteen minutes to cook and are also a good source of calcium. Just from a nutritional standpoint i would recommend getting whole oats-they're much better for you. If you aren't already you could try brewing some "milk tea." I do two parts red raspberry leaves, two parts nettles, two parts alfalfa, one part hops, one part oatstraw and one part peppermint or lemon balm (good for depression.) You can also use red clover, fennel seeds and blessed thistle leaves. I drink a quart a day, again as an infusion. I think that really helped my supply as well.


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## Vixxen

Well Elisabeth I just counted my domperidone and I have 3.5 days left. I could probably stretch that out to Saturday if I take 60 mg a day instead of 80mg. So if you could loan me some I'll replace them when I get my order in. You are SOOOO kind to offer. I think you definitely have a heart of gold. As far as the teas that you drink where do you get your herbs? Also I thought peppermint could dry up your milk...not help your supply. I read that in the book "The Nursing Mother's Herbal." Well, I hope you are doing well! Talk to you soon.


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## myboyz

Hi there! I am new to this site! I was on my way to bed and saw this thread. As always I am almost to late in the game. I will chat more about that later. Why haven't I ever heard of dompermine sp? That makes me mad I haven't!!


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## aussiemum

Hi myboyz! Never too late to join our little mob. I hadn't heard of domperidone either. I think I prolly would have tried it if I had, but....... well, what's done is done, I guess. Welcome.


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## dscokween

you probably haven't heard about it since it's not approved for use in lactating women for the purpose of increasing milk supply. In fact, the FDA released this last month:

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWER.../ANS01292.html

When I saw that, I got a little stressed about the availability of domperidone, so I ordered some and got it about a week later. There is a bit of info out there, but I think the FDA basically wants to protect themselves from any long term ramifications. The claims they make are a bit off, the people who had reactions to the domperidone they are talking about had IV injections of the drug. We take pills at a fairly low level...most of us taking as much or less than motility patients. There has been no studies on long term effects of babies, though, and I think that is truly what this statement is all about. Nonetheless...moms in the US may find it more difficult to get medical reimbursement for there domperidone or to find a compounding pharmacy that will mix the drug for them if they get it stateside.


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## aussiemum

Whoa! That's very interesting. So, how did domperidone get to be known as a milk supply increasing drug?? And okay, I'm a little clueless sometimes, but how do you get a script for a drug that's not available in your own country?? Can you really just pick what you want off the net & import it???

and this bit from dscokween's link might be of interest to some who are importing.... not that I want to panic anybody, but forewarned is forearmed.....

Quote:

The Agency also is issuing an Import Alert which alerts FDA field personnel to be on the lookout for attempts to import this drug so that it can be detained and refused admission into the U.S. if appropriate.


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## Vixxen

From what I understand this is is just a proposal from the FDA and it didn't go through. At least that's what another mom told me and she gets her domperidone stateside and recently ordered some with no problem at all. Also my LC told me that this drug has been used many years outside the US with no problems at all. I've come to the conclusion that this is all a control issue with the FDA. They like to have their hands everywhere possible. Dr. Newman wrote an interesting response to the FDA's notice. Here is a link to his response. http://www.breastfeeding.org/article...ridone_jn.html


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## myboyz

This may be too late but I will ask anyhow. My DS is 10months and really doesn't want to nurse. I am new at this so I turned to others and was told he was weaning. I thought it was early but didn't really know what to do. I have sense heard he is on a nursing strike. Here is the problem as it is many folds...My supply is way down as I have been supplimenting more lately. I try to nurse first and then offer food or a sippy after. I wonder if my supply is so low that he get frustrated and that is why he pulls off so much. This has been going on for about 3 months. My husband is not very suppotive in this area at all. He total thinks I should quit. Really it looks mean as I try to get him on and he pushes away and cries. I now understand that they do get distracted and go on strike but for this long? I am not sure, if it isn't to late, if I should try to build up my suplly or not. Part of me feels I could go part-time a few more months. I am not sure how I feel ( for myself) about extended nursing in general and with him like this. I ALSO have almost no one around that supports nursing or extended nursing for that matter. I do not want to regret giving up but it really isn't enjoyable for anyone around.

Thanks for any imput.


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## aussiemum

Well sweetie, that's a tough one, to be honest. My DH was less than supportive of my efforts at nursing our kids- when I am being fair & honest, I think part of it was that he was worried that our kids would be harmed from the FTT. So was I, but I was so desperate to make bf'ing work out that in hindsight I think I was blinded to what my babies actually wanted..... not sure if that makes any sense......

I think I need a bit more detail here, myboyz. Does your DS have low/ no weight gain? Where is he on those dreaded growth charts? Has he changed much? Is he eating solids regularly now, or mostly BM/ formula? Have you tried pumping to see how much BM you get when you pump? (you can also use this expressed milk in a sippy cup, so it doesn't go to waste) I am not a lactation consultant, just going on my own experiences here, (Victorian? DaryLLL?-- help!!) these ladies will no doubt have better advice than I do, but I'm just asking a few questions to try & work out what might be happening with your little one...

I have heard of some babies self-weaning before one year, even if there's no supply problems, so.....







This is a tough one... IMO, it's one of those things where you have to search your own heart & try & understand your true & deepest feelings about bf'ing & weaning.... not sure if that makes any sense either..... but I hope it helps a little at least.....


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## myboyz

Thanks for your reply! What is FTT.? He is okay with the growth chart but is hungry more then I realize sometimes, which makes me feel soooo bad. He eats baby food (3 so jars a day plus cheerios) and some formula(12-16oz.) I can not express but a tsp or so. When I had a pump I only got 1-2 oz. I think we are feeding off of each other. I am tense as I know he is going to pull or bite so I don't get much let down and then he gets more frustrated...and on and on.

Thanks!


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## aussiemum

FTT = failure to thrive. My first child was diagnosed with this at about 7 weeks, from memory. It was pretty scary for a while- she didn't actually regain her birthweight until I started supplementing at around 10 weeks. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think it was three months when she finally reached 8 lbs. (weighed 7lbs 12 oz at birth)

from what you've said so far, it does sound to me like your little fellow is self-weaning. He sounds like he enjoys his solids, so it doesn't surprise me that he's taking a small-ish amount of milk. However, as I said before, I am in no way an expert on this stuff!! So get a second opinion, okay??









okay, now I do also think that tensing up when he nurses is going to give you trouble too. Have you tried putting up a thread on the breastfeeding section of the boards asking if anyone else has had this happen, & what they tried to do to deal with it? I'm willing to brainstorm, but you might find it more useful to get advice first from mamas who've dealt with this personally.

hope that helps a bit more.....


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## karenge

Hey Drema, Sorry I didnt reply sooner. I got a call from my mom at 5 am on thursday saying she had to call 911 b/c my dad couldnt breathe. He has lung cancer, so i hopped the first plane to come from NC down to FL. I have been here almost a week now. I am spending most of my day at the hospital, we are only nursing in the morning b/c thats the only time i am here. MY dh keeps the kids the rest of the day. I didnt even nurse him this moring b/c I was too tired to wake up, dh had to get up with the kids. Now I am full of milk but the baby refuses to nurse







We havent been together much the past week, so its understandable, but still sad. We will probably be here for another couple weeks, depending on how things go. At this point my dad is still in the icu. He could get a little better and live a few more months or we could be signing up for hospice care soon







I have never cried so much in my life. I would love to keep nursing but under the circumstances I wouldnt be surprised if my milk dried up, from stress, not eating and just plain not nursing. PLease pray for my dad.
I will try to get back on here tomorrow.
thank you
karen


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## aussiemum

Karen---


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## Vixxen

Oh Karen I'm so sorry you have had such a rough time. I hope things get better for you soon. I will definitely pray for you and your family.


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## anabean

sorry to hear about that, karen.









i was wondering if y'all could check this thread i just started http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71#post1822671

and maybe give me some wisdom?

thanks!!


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## DetroitMom

Wow, I never would have guessed there were so many of us! It's great to know I'm not alone. DS no longer uses formula anymore and Enfamil just sent me 2 new cans of formula and coupons. If anyone would like them please pm me.

Kate


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## Vixxen

Do Any of you ladies have experience with any of motherlove.com's products? In particular the More Milk Plus Special Blend? I have ordered and it should be here tomorrow. I'll let you know what kind of results I have with it.


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## MomaKat

Hello,

I'm just coming to terms with the fact that I'm not producing enough milk for my daughter. She will be 6 months old next week, and has been exclusively breast fed (except the few solid foods we have experimented with in the last 2 weeks or so), but has been a very slow gainer (still under 12 lb, born at 7lb 2oz). We have nursed A LOT the last 6 months, and I plan to continue, but am beginning supplementation.

She seems to be developing appropriately, but when offered a bottle with formula the last few days she has been eating ravenously, and she is SO much less fussy and sleeps better (how bad do I feel). I finally saw a LC this week and will go again next week, but would love some tips from some experienced moms.

I'm wondering about what type of formula you all use (or does it matter). I think I will use a soy based formula but want to avoid genetically modified soybeans. The organic formula I bought has brown rice syrup as the first ingredient, isn't that just a fancy way to say sugar?

Also, I believe I need to supplement, but don't want whatever supply I have to dwindle. Is there a schedule I should follow or other tips to keep it up. I'm taking fenugreek, and pumping a lot with the pump I got from the LC, but that will go back next week.

Thanks,
Katie


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## Law of Kindness

Hi there! I'm not an expert on any of your questions, but I believe that soy is not recommended unless your child has a milk allergy, it's inferior to milk based formulas. However I am sure vegetarians would argue with me.

That information comes from Dr. Sears BTW. 

Also, regarding supplementing.... THere is a lady named Kathy at Ivillage who is a RN and a certified Lactation consultant.

She answers medical type lactation question!!!







http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv...tfeed/?ctx=128


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## aussiemum

I can't remeber now what brand of formula I used, but I did use a cow's milk based formula. So far my kids have shown no signs of ill-effects of dairy....







could just be luck tho. I think it also depends a bit on your DDs genetic background- my understanding is that different racial groups have different tolerances to dairy (don't remember where that's come from, so you'll have to track down sources). Our family ancestry is, as far as we know, predominantly mixed northern European- supposedly one of the groups better able to tolerate dairy.

I'd have to think hard before I decided to use a non-dairy supplement. Have you seen Mothering Mag's recent article on soy? It caused a bit of a fuss in some parts, but it was interesting reading. And we still use soy products at our house, as a part of an omnivorous diet.


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## chlobo

So my first foray into breastfeeding has been anything but smooth. For the first 5 months of her life, DD went to a female ped. The entire time the ped was concerned about DD's weight gain, although she never suggested I see a lactation consultant and never went as far as to recommend supplementation or switching to formula. Nevertheless I was in the office of frequent weight checks but she never seemed to alarmed.

At around 5 months I switched pediatricians for a variety of reasons. The new pediatrician was somewhat concerned about the weight so I ended up having to go in to see him a few times. Between months 6 & 7 DD only gained 2 oz. and the doctor recommended that I "up" her consumption of solids, which I did. I also, of my own accord, saught out a new lactation consultant to have the situation checked out. Turns out that I was on the low production end so that DD wasn't getting enough milk. Enter extreme guilt.

So I tried to take measures to do what I could to up production at this late date (rented a hospital grade pump & pumped after every feeding, took herbs, etc). At the same time (and really for a couple of months) DD has been having a terrible time sleeping. She would wake frequently with stomach discomfort and not be able to go back to sleep. The ped. was no help. He merely said everyone has gas.

So I finally went to an allergist (I had already been off dairy and it didn't seem to matter) and he recommended an elimination diet that was pretty severe (no dairy, no gluten, no fun, in fact I can only eat like 8 foods). After about 2 weeks it became clear that DD was having a problem with the herbs I was taking to boost my supply (fenugreek & blessed thistle). So I ditched those (and hence my supply has dipped again). And generally DD is much better. However, every 3 or 4 days she again has trouble sleeping due to excess gas and stomach discomfort. Sometimes its just one night, sometimes its 2 or 3.

I am so discouraged that I've gone through all these hoops and all I have to show for it is guilt that I wasn't producing enough to feed my daughter (and not feeding her enough) and a daughter who just seems like she can't get a good night's sleep. And I'm quite tired of chicken, turkey, melon and bananas. Quite frankly, I'm just plain tired from getting up a lot at night and I'm very depressed.

I'm also quite mad the both pediatricians. Neither even suggested I supplement. And when I went to see the LC she wondered why the first pediatrician hadn't identified the problem earlier and suggested measures to correct it. So I now have all this guilt associated with 1) not being able to produce enough to feed my child and 2) not recognizing that I wasn't and providing an alternative source for her. I'm also frustrated b/c on the elimination diet and I take any of the things that are supposed to help supply. I've ordered some Dom but it is slow in getting here. I hope things improve. I am actually thinking of quitting.


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## aussiemum

Hey chlobo, it sounds like you've had such a rough time of it!!! Oh sweetie....









Now seriously, seriously, take a deep breath. You do not have to quit breastfeeding, okay? It's fine to give yourself a bit of a break, & not feel like you have to give it up all together, okay?

So, how old is your DD now? How much does she weigh? Have you introduced solid foods yet? Is there anything other than gas & difficulty sleeping at night that might indicate allergies, excema, etc., & that might make you concerned about giving her something other than breast milk? Do you think that is primarily caused by the herbs???

Oh dear, I'm sorry to throw so many questions at you, sorry to be so.... clinical sounding - I'm not an LC or anything like that- just been down this slow weight gain track before..... & maybe there is a way thru without throwing it all in together.

I so know what it's like to have one of those days...


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## chlobo

Hi,

Fire away with questions. Nice to know someone is interested, even if its not the peds.

She's 9 months old. Not sure how much she weighs. We have an appt tomorrow to get weighed. We've been giving her solids regularly since 7 months old (per the ped's suggestion). She did start to gain better after we introduced the solids.

We definitely think the herbs caused some of the gassiness. After I went on the elmination diet she got much better so we retried the herbs and she got very gassy again. I do think that we were giving her way too many prunes and that contributed, but the herbs definitely caused a problem.

She also had a rash on her chest that led me to believe it might be allergies. And of course the slow weight gain, which I heard can sometimes be caused by allergies. The allergist thought so also, but that might be because he sees what he wants. To his credit, he did say it may not be allergies but we might see a difference as these things sometimes just clear up on their own.

At this point I've added oatmeal back into my diet. I hope it helps my supply at least a little. I'm waiting on the Dom, which should be here any day. I hope that helps too.


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## aussiemum

Hello.







I'm glad to hear the domperidone is on it's way-- from memory of other posts here you may find that it takes a week or so after taking it that you see an increase in supply. In the meantime, have you thought about giving your DD a supplement bottle, if you think it might help her with the fussiness/gassiness? It doesn't have to be forever, just until you can get a boost in supply.....


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## Vixxen

Oh you poor thing....I'm so sorry you have been through such heartache. I truely know how dissappointing it is to not be able to produce enough for your baby. I really hope the domperidone helps and that it arrives soon. If it is any consolation the dom was about the only thing that really helped me. I am on a tincture now called more milk special blend from motherlove.com that seems to be helping too, but from what you have said about the herbs causing your daughter to be gassy I don't think that would be a good route for you to take. Let us know how you are doing! *hugs hugs*


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## DaryLLL

Welcome chlobo









I hear you saying adding solids helped your dd to gain weight. I wonder, tho, if too many solids too soon could contribute to her gassiness. Can you keep track of what she eats and see when she gets more gassy? I assume you are only feeding her the foods you eat on your elimination diet?

Even if she is not outright allergic to what foods you are giving her, her gut may just not be ready to digest so many solids. Does she get constipated? Do the foods come out in the diaper looking undigested? In that case, artificial baby milk as a supplement instead of more and more solids, may be the way to go. Can she tolerate soy ABM?

I wonder how many oz you are able to pump in a day? Do you pump several times a day with a hospital grade (ie: Medela Lactina type) pump? Do you double pump? Do you have a hands-free kit?

Let go of the guilt. Many (most) moms think pediatricians know correct lactation info. Most do not. They are not trained in it. Yet they are territorial and most will not rec an IBCLC or LLL. It's a shame. But it's not your fault. You are on the right track now!







Good luck!

Helpful info and links:

http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns...nsitivity.html

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/low-supply.html


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## chlobo

DD was actually quite gassy before giving her solids so I don't think that was it. In fact, she got a lot better after I stopped taking Fenugreek & Blessed Thistle. I tried to reintroduce later and she got gassy again.

She does get a little constipated sometimes, but only when we feed her too many sweet potatoes.

I was pumping after every feeding for a while with a hospital grade pump but we moved recently and I just didin't have time. I will get back to it though. I'm really not able to pump that much extra.


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## Nosy

Welcome, Chlobo. I have a 5 mth old DS and we've done the slow weight gain supplementation route. I just wanted to comment that when I switched brands of herbs it quit making DS (and me) gassy. I switched from Nature's Way to GNC brand and it seemed to help. I am rotating my herbs, so I'm currently on Goat's Rue with seemingly no side effects. It's supposed to help build breast tissue. We'll see. Thinking of trying the Mother Love tincture next. Good luck!


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## pugmommy7

aussiemum said:


> I think I used to make straight fenugreek tea, sweetened with honey, & that did help increase the full sensation in my breasts. I just never had much luck with extracting the precious stuff
> 
> I just read this old-ish post and wanted to recommend fennel.
> it helped me so much. the letdown is smoother and the flow is easy.
> just a tip.
> love,J


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## pugmommy7

i found no difference in volume pre se, but i liked that it supports breast tissue. i was taking it to improve recanalisation.
it tastes very bitter- but a lot better than fenugreek tincture, which i had to switch back to pill form b/c of the taste.

i am off of that now-due to gas, so i may try the gnc brand next.
i think blessed thistle and fennel do the trick for me. and lots of pumping for stimulation btwn feeds when possible.
i also use a lact-aid w/ebm.

even if you don't get a lot while pumping- don't get discouraged. lots of full supplu moms have poor luck w/ even the nicest pumps.
but i did find that fennel did a lot for the ease of pumping for me,very smooth.
hth,
J


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## chlobo

Well right now I'm drinking Mother's Milk Tea & Fennel Tea. Although I dont drink a quart like some pple recommend. We'll see.


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## Vixxen

Ladies I need some support here....I'm really struggling with breastfeeding right now b/c of two issues. The first one is that Kaylee has 2 teeth now and has bit me 3 times!! Last time she did that I told her "NO BITE" and put her down on the floor. I think I scared her so hopefully she won't do it again. My other issue is I'm just darn tired of taking the domperidone and the herbal supplements to keep up my milk supply. It seems as if that is all I do. I really want to make it to a year breastfeeding but right now I feel like quitting...


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## Victorian

s Vixxen. I know that you are working hard to breastfeed and you are doing great. In regards to the biting - does she do it toward the end of the feeding? Maybe she is letting you know that your flow is slowing down and if you did breast compression it would help. Or maybe just end the feeding when she slows down and just offer to nurse more frequently if needed. Niko has only bit me once and I just told him no biting and I think that he understands. He does push it on my shoulder sometimes and I just say "no biting" again and he stops and laughs. smart little monkey!

I know what you mean about taking all the herbs and domperidone. I finally stopped the herbs (gradually) and noticed no difference. Then I stopped the dom. and again noticed no difference. Maybe talk to your IBCLC or DR. about weaning off of them while monitoring her closely? I started Niko on solids and he really liked them, so I was able to supplement less, take no drugs and still have a gaining baby.

And finally! Remember that any changes should be gradual to minimize the impact.

Victorian


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## chlobo

Vixxen, I know how you feel. I feel the same way, plus I"ve been tracking what she eats, when she sleeps and what I eat. It's all very exhausting. I feel like there's not always time to enjoy my baby.

Just remember, you have to do what's right for you and your family.


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## Vixxen

Yesterday Kaylee bit me at the beginning of the feeding and today she did after she had been eating a bit. So I don't know if she just hasn't figured out what her teeth do yet or not...who knows. Now since she has bit me 3 times I am almost paranoid to nurse her.

As far as solids do you guys think I should be feeding her more than twice a day? Right now she gets cereal and fruit in the morning and cereal and veggies at night. She is very interested in my food but when I sit down to feed her baby food she will only eat but so much.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

I have domperidone left that I purchased in May of this year.
There is 194 tablets left. If you are interested, please pm me.

Thanks!!


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## Hemiola

Wow! What a wonderful support group! I just read through all 8 pages of posts and am still trying to take it all in. I can't believe there are this many people out there who understand my feelings of frustration with my body, with my baby, with myself, with my family, with my doctors, with the world...
I cried when reading several of the posts. I will post my story tomorrow when I gather myself. If I tell it now I will be all weepy and negative








My DS gets 8-16oz. of Alimentum formula each day, in addition to nursing several times and at least one meal of solids. I do have a few questions before I go to bed, if y'all don't mind.

1) I see that people take up to 160mg. of Domperidone. I am currently on 90mg. What is the benefit of more? Does it make a drastic difference? I think I would like to up my dose. Also, for those taking Dom., how long did it take to notice a difference? I've been taking it for 2 weeks now and don't really see a difference.

2) DS has weight issues as well. He was 9lbs. 2 oz. at birth and at 6mos. he weighs 13lbs. 10oz. The Dr. suggested I add butter to his solids to give him more fat. I haven't done that yet as dairy products don't sit well with him. I usually add in MM and I'm thinking of adding Flax Seed Oil (he's also a bit constipated and his stools are pretty hard lately). The foods I am going to try are avocado, brown rice, kidney beans, and salmon (all listed in the 10 most nutrient dense foods list). What do y'all think?

3) Get a WHITTLESTONE PUMP!!! OMG what a difference!!!!!! I spent about $400 on pumps before buying a Whittlestone on Ebay. It is SO comfortable! There is no way I could continue to pump with the suction only pumps. I noticed one mom posted that she pumped so much it actually distorted her nipples. That's terrible!! There IS a better option!

I will stop rambling now. There is so much I want to say and ask but I need to get my thoughts together









Thanks!
Laura


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## Nosy

Laura, what kind of pumps did you use before the Whittlestone? I'm currently using a Medela Lactina (hospital grade) but I must admit the Whittlestone looks interesting. Thanks!


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## Victorian

I have a whittlestone too that I am going to sell on ebay. I liked for some reasons, but found the nipple holes too small. But other than that, I think that it is a great pump. Much more gentle!

In regards to the domperidone, some women get A LOT more will a higher dosage. Try the BFAR.org website. I also have an old email from my IBCLC that I will try to dig up later.

I don't know a bout the butter thing, sounds weird to me. I think it he needs fats, you are on the right track with fish oils and avacado.

I'm glad that we are here too, for all of our support needs. look foward to hearing your story.

V.


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## Hemiola

The pumps I used before I got my Whittlestone were the Avent Isis, a hospital grade Lactina for several weeks (free at the hospital), then I purchased an Ameda Purely Yours, and then I purchased a PIS Advanced backpack. Pretty much I've used everything out there which is considered "the best."
Isis $50
Purely Yours $120
PIS Advanced $260
Whittlestone $167 (eBay)
Pump Total: $597
SNS $54
Domperidone the first time $25
Domperidone the second time $50
Reglan $20
CranioSacral Therapy $65 for both sessions
LC and Chiropractor covered by insurance
Total Cost about $811.00

I think everyone can consider me









Thanks for listening!

Laura


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## Panserbjorne

Yeah, my dd and I are in over $10,000 in an effort to be a nursing team. We sold our house to continue her craniosacral therapy three times a week for four months now. Friends actually just held a benefit for us to be able to continue dd's treatment. I am also on domperidone-180 mg a day at my highest, and had to deal with a bunch of pumps to find the one that suited me best. You are in good company here! I think we all have done our best and pushed limits to make nursing (even part time) a reality. It is always nice to hear that you aren't the nutty one in every circle!!!!


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## Victorian

wow! 10,000 dollars! You have me beat at about 2000.

V.


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## Panserbjorne

Well, to be fair, I was on a serious mission. I just couldn't say it was over until I'd tried everything. DD also was dealing with a birth injury so alot of therapy was needed. The choice was to let insurance help out and possibly lose her, or take matters into our own hands. Once you lose your house it's like-whatever- and you just go for it, you know? I can't believe my husband stood behind me for all of it. I guess he's a keeper!


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## taransmom

hello, i am a new member and am looking for advice on increasing milk supply for pumping. I have returned to work part-time and have a fair supply for bottles when I am away. I am taking fenugreek and blessed thistle 3x/day and drink some mother's milk tea. I spoke with LLL leader and she recommended at least a gallon of water per day plus 3000 calories. Then I read last night that more that 12 glasses of fluid per day can inhibit milk production. My supply seems to fluctuate with anywhere from 2-4 oz from one side and 1.5-2.5 on other in am at fullest. I am pumping on one side and nursing on the other in the am (for a time I was able to pump before my daughter woke, however, her sleeping has gotten more erratic) then trying to pump 1-2 times at work. Any other suggestions of things to try? The lactation consultant was against Reglan due to side-effect of depression. My baby is only 10 weeks old and breast feeding has caused me much frustration. Another question: how to get bottom lip to purse w/nursing-she tends to keep it against her lip. Thanks so much!


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## Victorian

regarding the lip - reach your index finger in and push on the breast by her lip. with the next suck it should pop out.

To increase your supply, you probably are not pumping enough at work. You should be pumping as much as she would be nursing every 3 hours at the most. How long are you pumping? Try to use breast compression to get more (do a search for breast compression and jack newman). Reglan is not used much anymore for milk supply - try to get Domperidone over the internet.

Do you smell like maple syrup? If not you are not taking enough. Drink to thirst.

I am sorry that you had to go back to work so early and before you had nusing down 100%.

Is the lactation consultant an IBCLC? If not, you should go to one, they are the best (I know I am a student IBCLC)

Welcome to MDC by the way. Where are you located?


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## Victorian

one more thing - what pump are you using?


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## taransmom

thanks for the tips! i am working on the lip-she is a tough customer! it has been difficult to pump very frequently at work; i am pumping for 20 mins. how much fenugrek do you recommend if i don't smell maple? i will try the breast compression, but may wait to try the domp. i am located in anchorage, ak. i am using the medela electric. thanks again! also, it was recommended that i only offer one breast per feeding to increase the intake of the fatty milk; do you agree? please respond.


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## Victorian

they recommend fenugreek 3 pills, 3 x a day. There is also a Tincture called "mother's milk" i believe that has other herbs in it too such as Blessed Thistle.

Can you afford to rent a hospital grade pump.

RE: using one breast, what i would do is nurse as long as possible on one using breast compression and then burp and switch as long as the other is wanted, again using compression. Then start on the last breast at the next feeding. Breast compression will help you to get to the hind milk. Nursing on one side seems the best in the situation where you have too much milk and the baby gets a lot of fore milk.

I would offer the breast every 2 hours at the most while you are with her.

Do you have the book "Working Mother, Nursing Mother"? It is a great book and you can get it at the library.

How is your baby's weight gain? Any trouble there? Why do you think that you have low supply? Just how much you are pumping? It might just be a matter of getting better at pumping.

V.


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## taransmom

my baby is gaining well per the pediatrician. i feel like i have low suppply because of the pumping, only 1.5-2.5 on left and 2-4 on the right on average. occasionally i will pump more. are you thinking the pump is not working for me? on the days that i work, i can usually get 3 3.5 oz meals which is what we bottle feed her comfortably. so i am keeping up, but would like a surplus for comfort, ya know? i usually nurse her from 1.5-3 hours at the most. i think she gets enough as she falls off usually, however, she does play with the nipple, pulling and kicking, and sometimes wants to stay a long time. thanks


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## Victorian

it sounds like your milk supply is just fine. Some women (myself included) just have problems pumping. No matter what, they are just not the same as having a baby nursing. I use to have some success pumping on breast B while nursing on breast A. Maybe that would be a good way to get a stash. I know that some women just never can pump enough to have extra, just depends on how well you are able to pump. Might improve with a different pump, might not. I highly recommend the book "Working Mother, Nursing Mother"


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## Hemiola

TaransMom,

I agree with what others have said. If you invest in another pump, I highly recommend the Whittlestone Expresser. It really is superior to the other pumps in my experience, especially if you're not getting enough at each pumping session. Do your boobs feel softer and empty after pumping? The Whittlestone is the most like a baby nursing as possible. Try to get a deal on eBay









Good luck with the pumping and congratulations on your baby!

Laura


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## taransmom

Thanks for the great input from all! Victorian, I will check into that book. I probably will stick w/the Medela, since it was not cheap! I guess I will keep on plugging along, or is that "pumping" along? Thanks again!


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## mamato4

Hello All,

I'm new to the site and I am encouraged to see that I am not alone in this plight. I am mommy to 4 handsome boys...the youngest being almost 5 mo. Isaac was born 4-11 and it has been one struggle after another with BF. The short of it is that he has a high palate and is a very slow weight gainer. He is approx 11 lbs!! He is alert and reaching all milestones. I have always had small babies, but he is the smallest. Doc has us supplementing with high calorie formula, but I do pump with hosp pump and offer EBM. I'm not sure if I have low supply because my body won't make more or b/c ds will not nurse well. I am able to pump about 3-4oz total after 10 mins. DS gets 8-9oz of form. and the rest is breast. I guess I am trying to figure out my situation. How often and for how long do you think I should pump in order to try to increase supply? We super switch nurse but I am hearing and reading that it may not be a good idea b/c ds may not get hind milk. DS soils right amount of cloth diapers and although his poopies have decreased due to iron in form. (I think) he still has 3 poops a week. My desire is to EBF but I am not sure that it is in our future.

Trying to hold on to some hope through my faith b/c it is sooo important to me and ds.

And can I say that I am just tired of all the comparisons to "sumo babies" as my doc calls them. I have strangers telling me how tiny my baby is. I just want to yell some times!! Can anyone relate? I have friends whose babies gain 3-4 lbs in 1 month and I am feeling totally inadequate.

Sonya


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## Hemiola

Sonya,
It can be SO frustrating when people make comments about your baby's size! I know they don't do it intentionally, but those passing "oh...he's so TINY! Does he eat good?" kind of comments from people can really sting when you're working so hard to feed your baby.
It sounds like your supply is pretty good. If you're only having to give him about 8oz. of supplement a day, you're close to being able to provide all his needs. It might be that if you try Domperidone or some of the herbal milk boosters, you can gradually increase your supply and wean off the formula. Since you get a good amount at each pumping session, try to add an extra session or two a day and see if that helps. I know adding pumping sessions is MUCH easier said than done! It sounds like you're doing everything right to provide the best nutrition for your baby! Good job








I would definitely keep pumping and give him breastmilk as long as you feel comfortable doing so. I know how frustrating it is to have a baby who won't nurse. Although things have worked out pretty well for us, I had to accept that DS was not going to get the majority of his nutrition at the breast. Breastmilk from a bottle is still breastmilk, and those antibodies are so important! I highly suggest craniosacral therapy as well. Worked wonders for us! Sometimes I feel that the medical field stops short of solving the problem. The Dr. will hand out a diagnosis and will stop there. It seems like it is always up to moms to go the extra step and see what therapies/treatments are available to actually DO something about the diagnosis. I hope y'all find an answer!

Hugs,
Laura


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## aussiemum

Yes, backing up what Hemiola said. Tough as it sounds, extra pumping may do the trick for you to get a full supply. The comments are hard, I know. My worst, I think, was a woman at the markets asking 'Oh........ was he premature?' when I said DS was 3 months.







I know she was just curious, but still. Yowch, ya know?


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## Vixxen

to all of you that are pumping just so your baby can have your breastmilk. I honestly don't know if I could exclusively pump if Kaylee didn't nurse. I've never been real successful at pumping anyways.


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## DaryLLL

bump


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## deymm

Hi all,

I'm happy to say now that B is going gangbusters on solids, we have weaned off formula! Yeah!

No more mixing that stuff up, no more cleaning and filling Lact-Aid units. Hooray!


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## chlobo

Well since I last posted, DD has been doing really well. After I started the solids, she started to gain weight again. Things have been going well for a month or two.

Well, now, at 10.5 months I'm having problems again. About a week before Aunt Flo came to visit my supply dropped again. Only it didn't bounce back after Aunt Flo so I don't know what to do.

I have
*Rented a hospital grade pump (I pump twice a day)
*Drink Mother's Milk Tea, Rasberry Leaf & Fennel
*Am currently using More Milk Plus tincture
*Eating oatmeal every day

Is there anything else I can try? Also, should I supplement? It seems like she isn't quite satisfied.

I really wanted to make it through the winter but I'm not "feeling the love" so to speak.


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## Vixxen

The only thing I can think of for you to do is possibly pump more. 10 minutes here and there is better than nothing. If you have a weekend where you can set aside time just for pumping and pump after every feeding during the day then probably by the end of the weekend your supply will have increased. HTH!


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## scubamom

well i should update to.
ds is now 8 months we are doing great on solids and i still bf using the sns. he has about 14 oz of formula a day, and i feel i supply very little, i think domperidone isnt having much effect anymore, but we still carry on as he loves to nurse, to soothe, to remove pain from all the bumps from learning to crawl, and to get him to sleep.

were going through the pinching and biting phase but im determined not to quit. Ive made it this far.
im feeling positive tonight cant u tell


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## ckhagen

Hi,
I'm new here. My name is Candice and DS is Zion. He's 4 months old and we're having serious problems. He was born 10lbs 8oz. I have been having problems with him feeding since the 2 month mark and I tried to tell the ped I thought I might have low supply but he didn't seem to care because his weight was ok then. It's been getting worse and worse and when I took him in last week for the 4mo checkup (new ped) he only weighed 13lbs 8oz. He went from 99th to 20-ish percentile.

There are no LCs ANYWHERE out here... He had an RN who's very experienced with BFing call me and she says I definitely have low supply. She's had me feeding him every 1.5 for 7 days now and I swear it's getting worse. He's woken up 4 times since I put him down tonight wanting to eat and just screaming when he isn't getting anything. I know pumping isn't an indicator but, I used to get about 3oz (total) in about 15 minutes, last week I was down to 1.5oz in an HOUR, and this morning I tried and tried and barely got 3 drops.

The ped keeps suggesting Reglan but I've heard all the bad stuff about it. I don't want to take it. I just don't know which route to go, SNS, Herbs, Meds...? I feel so aweful with him being hungry like that. I gave him 2oz of EBM tonight from the freezer. It's the only bag I had, and I know he's still hungry because he woke up again. Ugh. This sucks. I was so commited to doing the full year, I'm going to be really crushed if this keeps getting worse, but I can't let him starve!


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## Victorian

s

this is very difficult. First of all, the baby needs to be fed. If that means SNS, I think that you should do that. Is he interested in solids? How is his output? (Wet and poopy diapers). Did the nurse watch you nurse or just call you? Do a search for Dr. Jack Newman and read all his information. He is wonderful. Where are you located? Be sure to read about Domperidone on Dr. Newman's site. Also you can do herbs AND domperidone at the same time.

Did you get your period back? Could you be pregnant? Both of those things can lead to low-supply. Are you eating well? Dieting hard? Excercising a lot? drinking lots of water? Is your latch good? Is there a lot of stress in your life right now?


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## ckhagen

I'm definitely considering the SNS. The ped suggested the solids... he HATED it. Wouldn't even swallow. So, he said don't try again for a while, he's not ready. His wets are pretty good, I think, I'm using cloth and to be honest to me it makes it harder to tell. The poops... well... it's gotten better this week. Last week it was 6.5 days between poops. I nearly died! The nurse just called, finding someone out here to assist with BFing issues is nearly impossible. I talked to someone from LLL, but she sounded like she didn't have a clue. She'd never even heard of Reglan.

I've been reading the Dr. Newman stuff. I'll check into the Domperidone.
I got my period back at 8 weeks which is when this started. It was SO werid because it was heavy for about 2 days then tapered off... And then it would come back every other day (like clockwork) for a MONTH. I was about to lose my mind. Well, it eventually stopped and hasn't come back again since. I'm definitely not pg. Let just say... it's been 6 months! I'm trying to eat better, I've never been a big eater, but I feel like I'm eating enough. I'm drinking water... We've got about a thousand bottles from the hurricane sitting in the fridge. No dieting, never have. Not exercising, never have! I think the latch is ok, but how should I know? I'm a high stress kind of person, so I've thought about that. But, I don't think anything unusual is happening.
Thanks for the help. I'm really struggling.

ETA: I'm in NW Florida, about an hour from Pensacola. Destin area.


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## DaryLLL

ckhagen,

You are in Destin?!! Hurricane much? Stress much? Stress can lower your supply.

Now, a 10 lb baby! I had one of those. She would feed every hour. She would feed for 45 mins, take a 15 min break and want to nurse again. I did not expect this, but mostly followed her cues and she doubled her birth weight by 3 mos.

She needed a lot of calories and the only way for her to get them was to feed very very frequently.

Every hour or hour and a half is good. Don't look at the clock. If he makes a fussy noise, pick him up and nurse him, even if it is several times an hour. How often were you nursing before? Some babies going through growth spurts will be more on than off the breast for several days to a week to boost your supply up to where it needs to be.

Are you co-sleeping? Nursing with your baby at night in bed is a sure fire way to increase lactation hormones.

Now, your ds may have been born big but be meant to grow more slowly than my dd. I doubt it tho as he wants and needs to have milk frequently. Also, an IV during birth can artificially raise a baby's birthweight, did you know that? Just in case you had one.

If he wakes up when you put him down, don't put him down. Wear him in a sling for his naps. He will stimulate your supply just by being more skin to skin with you. Take yr top off and just have him in a diaper.

Force youself to eat. Drink at least 3 liters of water a day. Pay attention to food and drink.

Just don't look at the clock. Get a big plate of food and a huge sport bottle, sit on the couch, pop in a good movie and nurse, nurse, nurse. Take an afternoon nap. This will increase milk. Skip housework. Ask for help with that. Use breast compression. Continue to pump between feeds if you do have a break.

If your LLL Leader does not have good ideas for increasing milk, ask her for the number of another Leader. If she is also not as helpful as you would like, ask her to let you talk to their Area Professional Liason Leader. She has more specialized education than the average Leader.

You also might weant to have your thyroid checked, what with the long spotty period.

Meanwhile,

Read this :

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/low-supply.html















:bf


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## Nosy

ckhagen,
Boy have I been down this low supply road! I also currently live about 1 hr from you near P'cola, so PM me if you want to chat. Baptist Hospital in P'cola has some decent LCs but I have to say I feel I know more about low supply from my internet research than from them. I have had supply issues from the beginning and have tried lots of remedies- Mother's Milk tincture & domperdone worked the best for me. Hang in there! The longer I nurse, the longer I want to keep doing it. DS is 7 mos, and I thought our bfing relationship would never make it this far!

Good luck!


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## Victorian

Good advice everyone. I was half asleep when I wrote mine so I am glad that I am not the only one here! I second the idea of breast compression, it will really help with getting the fatty milk. Is there any way that you can drive to see those hospital LCs? I think that it would really help. Also your period story really implies to me that you might be having hormonal issues. Be sure to push to get that checked. Also in regards to eating. Can you eat soup? I find that if I make a huge pot of lentil soup and keep it warm and buy some nice hearty bread, I will eat that and it is so good for you. Also, if I have veggies and fruit cut up in the fridge with cheese i will snack on that.

V.


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## mamato2boys

I'm so glad I found this tribe, so so sad that there are so many of us here. I only have a minute but I wanted to give some hope to those who think they may have hypoplasia and are planning on having more babies (I'll be back later to tell my story







) I had virtually no milk after my first was born, but there was really no BF support where we were living. We supplimented and he rejected BF at 3 mos. With my second I met with LC's before the birth and did just about everything possible to boost my supply-I had a bit more milk but still not enough and was diagnosed with hypoplasia when he was one month old. Unfortunatly he too soon learned to love the bottle and weaned at 6 months. My third was born last August and we are still happily BF! I definetly have more milk this time around-I actually get engorged and my breasts got bigger during pregnancy which NEVER happened before. We still had to suppliment, but not nearly as much. Based on the increase from baby one to baby three I think that if we ever had five I may be able to EBF or at least be very close.

I don't think that hypoplasia is as rare as the medical system makes is out to be-I've met several women online and IRL. I also wonder if there may be a genetic component to it, I believe my grandmother has it too.

Good luck to all of you, you are such great mamas!

Nicole now mama to three boys
Holden Ethan and Casper


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## Vixxen

Oh Nicole you have no idea how happy your post makes me!! I too have been diagnosed with hypoplasia and have often wondered if my supply would be better with my next baby. Your post has given me hope in that. My daughter is almost 8 months old and we are still breastfeeding! I'm so proud that we have made it this far. Although a week or so ago I thought she was weaning b/c she would barely nurse, but she has picked back up again. Hopefully she will nurse through the winter at least=) Thanks again for your post!

ckhagen~ My heart goes out to you! These ladies here have given you great advice! Keep trying hon! I know it's so hard but it is so worth it! *hugs to you*


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## ckhagen

Thanks for all the awesome advice mammas.

I have an appt with the ped in the morning and if there's still a problem I'm going to call a lady locally who sells Medela products so I can pick up an SNS from her.

I would be worried about the stress factor if this hadn't been going on for over 2 months now.

I've always had problems with him barely eating. From birth he never wanted to nurse more than 10 minutes total. Right now we're down to maybe 2 minutes on each side before he quits and/or loses his mind.

I'm working on the calories, I went out and bought a bunch of Ensure drinks, because I know I can drink those.

We were nursing every 3 hours before... but if I let him (I tested it a time or two) he would go at least six without even hinting at wanting to eat. So, I fed him every three just because I knew he wouldn't unless I offered it to him.

We do co-sleep, I feed him nearly all night long. I swear I let him nurse on one side, flip over and then the other, and the cycle keeps going until about 8 in the morning. The only long stretch of maybe 4-5 hours might be when he first goes down at night, but I'm trying to pump during that time now.

I'm thinking it's possible you could be right about him just "evening out" I guess the ped will be keeping an eye on it and if he holds steady he won't freak over it. However, we're still sure I've got some level of low supply.

I did have an IV during the birth but he was massive, not just in weight. His chest was so wide and his shoulders would have never fit. The OB was positive she'd have had to break his collarbone to get him out... I had a c-section by the way after 38 hrs of labor because he was extremely stuck and not presenting correctly.

I do wear him in a sling often. He generally loves it. I'll try doing it more often.

I've just started trying to use breast compression, I haven't noticed a difference but I'll keep trying. I did notice that he doesn't take those long drawing sucks, but rather short fast sucks.

I've been out to GNC twice now for fenugeek and they've been out, but I'm going to try and find this elusive health food store out in Fort Walton that everyone swears exists and see what they've got, hopefully they may have the Mothers Milk tea.

I'm glad you brought up the thyroid/hormonal problems. I'll have to look into it. Because I called my OB and they told me that my situation with the period was "totally normal for some people". I was like... this is crazy... this can't be totally normal.

Thanks for lead lead on the LC's at Baptist, if it comes to it I may have to try trekking down there.

I can eat soup. Making soup is another story, but I can try anything.

Thanks SO much for your help, you've all mentioned at least one thing each so far that nobody else has. I'll update you all on tomorrows appointment. Thanks again!


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## Victorian

I had one more thought - is he developmentally were he should be? have you tried to pump just to let down and then latch him on to see if he would nurse longer. If you did that and used compression, he might stay interested for longer.

Also, have they ruled out thrush, teething pain and ear infections that might cause him to stop nursing?


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## DaryLLL

Quote:

I've always had problems with him barely eating. From birth he never wanted to nurse more than 10 minutes total. Right now we're down to maybe 2 minutes on each side before he quits and/or loses his mind.

We were nursing every 3 hours before... but if I let him (I tested it a time or two) he would go at least six without even hinting at wanting to eat. So, I fed him every three just because I knew he wouldn't unless I offered it to him.

We do co-sleep, I feed him nearly all night long. I swear I let him nurse on one side, flip over and then the other, and the cycle keeps going until about 8 in the morning. The only long stretch of maybe 4-5 hours might be when he first goes down at night, but I'm trying to pump during that time now.
So he will only nurse for 2 mins per side during the day, but will nurse for very long stretches at night lying down? Maybe nursing lying down is more comfortable for him? Does he nurse effectively at night? Suck suck with a definite swallow? Does he have a good inch of areola in there?

I wonder if he sustained neck or jaw trauma during his traumatic birth? The pain might bother him more when he is fully awake during the day, causing breast refusal. I would go see a chiropractor or a Cranio-Facial practitioner. Does he hold his head over to one side ever? This is called torticollis or wry neck.

http://www.ecureme.com/emyhealth/Ped...s/Wry_Neck.asp

link on why a baby might fuss at the breast:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...e-nursing.html


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## Nosy

Me again. I just wanted to say there is a terrific co-op in Pensacola called Ever'mans. They have fenugreek, Mother's Milk tea, and just about every other herb I've tried to increase supply (alfalfa, marshmallow root, fennel, brewer's yeast, etc). It's located downtown on Garden Street. It might be a trek now after the hurricane, but you could just take 98 from Destin straight there. If you like organic, natural foods-type places, it's worth a visit. Not sure where the health food store is in Fort Walton, though. Another thought is to get GNC to order it for you- I know GNC in Navarre had it when I bought it there a couple of months ago.

Also, you could order from http://www.motherlove.com. I've had good results with her stuff.

I hope your ped is more pro-breastmilk than mine. I tried to get her to write me a prescription for human milk, but she wouldn't do it so I wouldn't have to supplement with formula. Sigh.

Good luck!


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## DaryLLL

See, if the baby is only willing to nurse for 2 minutes per side, boosting the milk supply with galactogogues may just cause engorgement. I would look to the root cause of why baby won't, or can't nurse!


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## Victorian

I agree with Darylll. It seems that maybe your milk supply is because he is not/can't stimulate it properly. My son when to a chiroprator and it was night and day difference with nursing. Also a DO might help (make sure to find one that does manipulation) and would be covered by most insurances.

If there are none of those in your area, you could call around to doulas and ask them. They always have resources!

V.


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## meowee

Hi ladies

I have four children and had low supply with #3. I know that horrible feeling of praying for a wet diaper, or a BM. My DD would not suck from a bottle. I had to spoon feed her fruit juice and pureed fruit. We did nurse for one year but really she was weaned by 8 months. I managed to nurse a couple times a day till her first birthday but almost all her food was not BM. It was very hard and so sad and depressing to go through. I felt like I was failing her and starving her.









I still don't know what caused the low supply. Did she not like to nurse b/c I had a low supply, or did I have a low supply b/c she did not like to nurse?

She finally started sucking from a bottle around her first birthday, and she still drinks from a bottle. She is 2 1/2. She is tiny and has always been my tiniest-- she is always around the 20th percentile or lower. My others are in the 90th.

I never had this problem with the other children.








to you all!


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## DaryLLL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
I agree with Darylll. It seems that maybe your milk supply is because he is not/can't stimulate it properly. My son when to a chiroprator and it was night and day difference with nursing. Also a DO might help
V.

What's a DO?


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## earthchick

Okay, so after reading all 10 pages of this thread I joined mothering.com for the express person of joining this tribe. I am so so thrilled to have found you (though not so so thrilled to be among those with low milk supply.

I'll try to make my story short. I gave birth via C-section at 37.5 weeks one day prior to a scheduled C-section due to preeclampsia. One baby went straight to the NICU and I didn't get to see him again for 24 hours, b/c the drug I was on (mag sulfate) made it impossible for me to get out of bed. I was in the hospital for 5 days, with my blood pressure actually getting worse instead of better. Charlie spent 8 days in the NICU and 3 on the Peds floor. The OB wouldn't let me pump for him at first, saying I needed to be resting instead (b/c of my bp). I didn't really learn to pump until 2 days later, didn't get to bf Charlie at all til he was 3 days old. Rob bf'd from the beginning but developed jaundice and lost more than 10% of his birthweight; they made me supplement with formula.

That whole week was extremely traumatic - my bp when I left the hospital was 175/115 - higher than when I checked in. In fact, I was on bp meds for 6 weeks postpartum. One of my LCs thought the drug might've hampered my milk supply. In retrospect, I also think that my horrible first week (there is much, much more to tell about the awful hospital stay but I won't lest this post grow even longer) may have resulted in some of my milk-making cells shutting down. I slowly realized I wasn't even making enough for one baby, let alone two.

Like the rest of this tribe, I tried everything, thinking that bf'ing was only a matter of determination, stubborness, perseverance, and hard work. Here's what I tried: saw 3 different LCs; tried fenugreek, blessed thistle, Reglan, Make Milk tincture (w/ fenugreek, blessed thistle, goat's rue, and borage), and am currently on Domperidone (without a prescription); used an SNS and later a Lact-Aid; rented a hospital scale, did test-weights on both babies before and after bf'ing then again before and after using the SNS (so I knew which baby had how much formula); kept detailed charts of everything; pumped up to 5 times a day for a total of no more than 4 ounces; spent 3 solid days in bed with both babies nursing on demand and only later realizing they must've been starving that whole weekend; took both babies to an osteopath for cranial-sacral therapy; listened to a CD with guided meditations and affirmations. In the process, I nearly drove dh crazy and cried almost every day. I felt betrayed my by body. And I just kept at it, thinking I couldn't give up b/c true milk insufficiency supposedly only strikes 1% of the female population.









Around the time the babies hit 3 months, it began to dawn on me how absurd my life had become, and I finally began to let go of my dream of fully bf'ing both babies. That was about the same time I started taking Domperidone, which I only found through internet research (none of my LCs ever mentioned it). For the past 3 weeks I've been taking 80mg and I'm finally able to fully bf Rob. Meanwhile, a donor angel has given me bags full of her extra frozen EBM. Charlie now gets that, along with some formula, along with whatever I'm able to pump. Every few days I will try to bf him, but it is mostly an exercise in frustration for both of us. He has never taken very well to the breast whereas Rob really likes to nurse (and does so nearly constantly - his constant demand helps my supply, whereas every time I've tried to work Charlie in, I think I have a dip).

So that's where I am for now - and so glad to know I'm not alone. In 2 1/2 weeks I go back to work, and I'm worried that I may have additional supply problems. As I face that possibility, here are my questions:
1 - I notice that some of you take much more domperidone than I do. How much can I safely take?
2 - I have a Medela PIS. Should I rent a hospital pump instead?
3 - Rob nurses very frequently (at 4 mos. he nurses about 12 times a day, maybe even more [I'm not always sure during the night since we cosleep and I don't always fully wake up to feed him]). Is this b/c of my supply issues, or may this just be normal for him? I know some newborns nurse this frequently, but I didn't know one his age might do the same thing. He seems happy and he has plenty of wet diapers. I haven't weighed him since I returned my hospital scale 10 days ago, but his weight gain seemed fine then.
4 - Given how frequently Rob nurses, how frequently during the work day should I plan on pumping? I live less than 2 miles from home and have a flexible schedule, so I can probably work it out to nurse him once during the workday, but otherwise I will be away from him for about 7-8 hours a day. Should I pump every 2 hours?

Okay, enough from me already. I'm just so so happy to have found you people!

p.s. to DaryLLL - a DO is a Doctor of Osteopathy


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## ckhagen

Good news!!!

He gained 9 oz in 10 days! I'm so excited. Evidentally the frequent feedings is helping. He BARELY ate today, I swear I feel like out of the 6 times he's nursed in the past 12 hours it would total 10-12 minutes.

It's not so much that he nurses for long stretches at night, it's that he doesn't scream, so I've tried nursing him lying down during the day, but it doesn't seem to help much. I think at night he's just tired and doesn't have time to think about whether or not he's getting something, he's just sucking for comfort at that point. The sucking action is about the same, usually the only time he takes long draws is right in the beginning.

I should also mention that I've never had anything close to nipple soreness (aside from the first 36 hours), never any cracking or bleeding, or anything of that sort. I've been immensely blessed in that respect.

I've not purposely tried the pumping then feeding idea. I accidentally pumped once about 20 minutes before it was time for him to eat and I think that was the most pissed off he's ever been. He wasn't getting anything. He got so mad I had to give him formula.

Developmentally, the ped hasn't said anything except for him having a slight bit of hypotonia (low muscle tone). He can stand up holding on to the couch... he's only 4 mos. old so I think that's pretty good. He doesn't roll over back-to-stomach yet, but he hates being on his stomach, so he sees no reason to. He's the happiest baby you'll ever meet, he always smiling, he loves people and faces, but feeding him turns him into a monster!

No thrush, no signs of teeth (he does drool excessively, which the ped brought up as meaning he is hydrated, and he chews his hands and feet all the time, but no bumps, and no crying except when eating.)

We don't suspect any injuries, we could always be wrong but he never even crowned. I got to 8cm, but the only thing that looked wonkey on him was the big lump on the top of his head that was swollen







He doesn't lean at all, I've seen cases of torticollis and he definitley doesn't have that. He does prefer my left breast, which by the way almost always gives up double what the right one does when I pump, which could be a result or the cause of him favoring it. Who knows!?

I may try the chiro I've never been (my mom has) but we have a great one out here who delivered all four of his kids at home with water births, so he's very AP friendly.

I found the HF store in FWB, I got the Fenugreek and Mother's Milk tea... What should I do with them? Hehe... I'm clueless.

You all are so awesome. Hopefully I'll be getting somewhere with this. I'm so proud of his weight gain though. It makes me feel a little better.

Btw, I hear everyone reccommending the Whittlestone pump. Are the recs coming because it's painless, or does anyone see an increase in EBM as a result of using it? I had to bring back my elec. pump I had (some cheap Evenflo one) because it just wasn't working well... the manual one works WAY better.


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## earthchick

doin' the bump









(am hoping for some answers to the questions in my long-winded previous post)


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## Victorian

NAK

Hello Earthchick. Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I have been frantic with getting homework done and tired bacause I get up so early to do it









I think that your birth experience really f***ed up you milk supply (to put it bluntly). I too got to the point where my definition of breastfeeding success was to continue to nurse him even if it wasent exclusively. I think that it was a very healthy place for me to be. You are a great mom and are doing a great job! I hear a lot of pain in your story, and a lot of power being taken away from you. I suggest that if possible you find a Birthing From Within teacher and ask if they teach a birth story workshop. It will help you to reclaim some of that power. Another great resource is the www.bfar.org website. Although you didnt have a reduction, their website is great for info!

to answer your questions:

1 - I notice that some of you take much more domperidone than I do. How much can I safely take?

http://www.bfar.org/domperidone.shtml - 160 (40mg/4x a day)

2 - I have a Medela PIS. Should I rent a hospital pump instead?

you could try it. everyone is different. I got the same # of milk from an Isis handpump than with a big fancy one! I have a friend that pumped exclusively for 12 months due to a baby with a neurological disorder that make nursing imposible. She was part of a yahoo group for exclusive pumpers at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPers/. they might be able to help with these questions.

3 - Rob nurses very frequently (at 4 mos. he nurses about 12 times a day, maybe even more [I'm not always sure during the night since we cosleep and I don't always fully wake up to feed him]). Is this b/c of my supply issues, or may this just be normal for him? I know some newborns nurse this frequently, but I didn't know one his age might do the same thing. He seems happy and he has plenty of wet diapers. I haven't weighed him since I returned my hospital scale 10 days ago, but his weight gain seemed fine then.

my 15 month old murses that much. I think it sounds completly normal. remember nursing is more than food.

4 - Given how frequently Rob nurses, how frequently during the work day should I plan on pumping? I live less than 2 miles from home and have a flexible schedule, so I can probably work it out to nurse him once during the workday, but otherwise I will be away from him for about 7-8 hours a day. Should I pump every 2 hours?

I would nurse right before leaving, pump at every 2 hours and more if I felt "full". IF possible. How long does it take you?


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## aussiemum

Hello to all the new members of our little tribe. Not sure if I have any answers to your Qs, earthchick. Pumping just didn't really work at all for me- my kids were already totally on formula by the time I went back to work PT. Have you checked out the working mamas forum under Parenting Issues? Those ladies often have some very good advice re: pumping & working..... Don't know if any have had supply issues, as well as twins!!, but they might be able to help a bit.

I can, however, totally sympathize with the driving yourself mad trying everything under the sun to keep on bf-ing. I never did try the SNS- couldn't face another contraption, TBH, but that's just me. My marriage was on shaky ground over the whole ordeal, I sobbed constantly, fretted & worried myself sick over the FTT, with the second child I felt like I was neglecting the first by bfing the second all day & night just to keep him alive, yada, yada, yada..... Really, it amazes me the lengths that we low-supply mamas go to in order to keep on trying to feed our babies..... we're heroes in our own quiet way, kwim? Gotta run, as usual!!


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## DaryLLL

ckhagen,

How great his weight gain has picked up! Small frequent feeds might be what suits him best.

Reading your post made me think of this kellymom.com page:

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/slow_...ths_01-03.html

esp this part:

Quote:

One more reason requires a little more explanation. In the first few weeks, babies tend to fall asleep at the breast when the flow of milk is slow (this slowing of the flow occurs more rapidly if the baby is not well latched on). The baby will suck and sleep and suck, without getting large quantities at this point, but the mother may have a letdown reflex (milk ejection reflex) from time to time and the baby will drink more. When the mother's supply is abundant, the baby usually gains fine, though he may spend long periods on the breast despite the mother's abundant supply. However, by the time babies are 6 or 8 weeks of age, younger sometimes, many babies start to pull away from the breast when the flow slows down, often within a few minutes of starting nursing. This is more likely to occur in babies who received bottles early on. The mother will then likely put the baby to the other side, but then the baby will do the same thing. He may be hungry still, and may refuse the breast preferring to suck his hand. He won't get those extra letdowns that give him a few extra gushes of milk that he would have had if he had stayed on the breast. So he drinks less, and the supply also decreases because he drinks less, and the flow slows even earlier in the feeding (because there is less milk) and you see what may happen. It doesn't always happen this way, and many babies may gain even if the do spend only a short period of time on the breast. They may still pull off and suck their hands because they want more sucking but if their weight gain is good, there is no need for concern.
etc...

Take a look and see if that sounds like your baby.


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## DaryLLL

earthchick,

Welcome to mdc!









I was amazed at your story of perseverance and love for your twin babies. How scary to have to overcome the pre-eclampsia/HBP while worried about your little guys.

My feeling was one of surprise and victory that you are able to fully bf at last one of them! I wasn't expecting you to say that!~

So, IME (15 yrs as a volunteer lactation specialist for an intl bfing org), most moms find a rental hosp grade pump (usually the Lactina by Medela) works best for long term pumping. Quieter, more efficient, no batteries wearing out. You can get a double pump kit and even a hands-free contraption to hook to your bra so you can do work or eat while pumping. Or pump one breast while a wigggly baby is on the other side. Ask your Medela rep for these. 1-800-TELLYOU for your closest rep.

BTW, all 3 of my kids nursed every hour, well past 3 mos. Well past 6 mos. OK, they nursed every hour until age 2 yrs! With one longer stretch at night if we were alseep together or very busy. Many of these frequent feeds would only be 5 mins or less when they got past a yr or so. But an older baby/toddler can suck down several oz in 5 mins.

2 of mine weaned while I was pg, but my ds still nursed 8 x/day at 3, 3 1/2 yrs. He was down to only 2 nursings a day by age 4 and weaned at 4 1/2.

For many great tips on nursing while working, get the book,







Nursing Mother Working Mother. Available to borrow at most LLL groups, or to buy at:

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Web_sto...=3523220_29333

Also get Mothering Multiples, if you haven't read it already. You didn't mention if you have been to LLL mtgs.

Good luck! You are doing a great job!


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## earthchick

Hi again. Thanks for the welcome, the encouragement, and the advice! Much appreciated!

Victorian, thanks for the info about domperidone and the websites you referred me to. I'm also really interested in the Birthing From Within you mentioned. My birth experience was just so not what I wanted, and it has esp. given me grief since I'm pretty sure it will be my only one. I have never heard of a birth story workshop and will definitely look into it!

Re: pumping, I usually only do about 5-10 minutes (double-pumping), as I'm usually doing it after I've just nursed Rob. The times I've pumped instead of nursing, it's more like 15-20 minutes.

aussiemum - Thanks for pointing me to the working mamas on the Parenting Issues board. I will check it out! And I totally know what you mean about the SNS being one more contraption. I hated that thing with a passion and finally got too burnt out to use it.

DaryLLL - I really appreciate your reinforcing the idea for me that it really is a victory that I'm fully bf'ing one of my little guys. It does feel that way, most of the time, though initially I had some guilt over "giving up" on Charlie.

I have ordered a hands-free kit for pumping at work and I do think I will rent a Medela Lactina for at least a month. I used one in the beginning when I was working on my supply issues til a friend gave me her barely-used PIS.

I have read Nursing Mother, Working Mother and found it helpful (though I still had questions and I guess I won't know how it's all going to work til I do it myself). And I own and love Mothering Multiples (though I must admit it contributed to my madness since it reinforced for me the belief that if I only tried hard enough I could make things work - overall though, it was a very good book and I still refer to it). I am a member of a local LLL group and have found my leader to be very very supportive of my efforts.

I'm so glad to know that my big guy's constant eating doesn't mean a supply issue. I was just really unprepared for an older baby to still eat so frequently!

Thanks for all your help everyone!!


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## momof2tadpoles0104

unfortntly or fortuntly (however you see it lol) i belong here also
i nursed my 1st babe for 6 months and then stopped due to a low supply. i am still nursing my 2nd at almsot 8 months but i take domperidone and believe its the only thing that is preventing me from quiting. that and the fact the my 2nd LOVES to nurse lol!! my 1st was either or.
My problems are probly due to the fact that i use a sheild due to inverted nipples and i think because 1 of my breasts is smaller than the other.
sometimes it makes me wonder what gives ya know? why is it that the people that want to BF have so many problems and the people that dont are "perfect" ya know?
anyhoo im rambleing!


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## aussiemum

Oh yes, I know that evil jealousy monster..... I have been very guilty of wishing for a set of someone else's boobs.... I'm glad to hear that bf'ing bub number two is going better than the first.


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## chlobo

Well I finally started Domperidone. However, I planned poorly and I am going to run out before my new shipment arrives.

Is there anyone here who might be willing to "loan" or sell me some Dom to tide me over? I'm sort of desperate as Aunt Flo is almost upon me and my supply dries up to practically nothing.


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## Victorian

I wish I had some to send you. Try posting on the breastfeeding boards and trading post too.

V.


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## artymuminoz

Hello all...
I feel all your pain...
After 5 years...yoga, organic, travel with my dh, selling my art and loving life...I heard a knock, my baby calling me. A brush with cancer and they said I mite never conceive. I was pregnant!!!!!!!!!!
I was adopted, an abandoned baby...my baby would know he was wanted...loved, from the second he was conceived...
Yes a homebirth please...midwife...no doctors for us, thankyou.
Midwife going back to university, move to the city for access to midwifes...book into the local birthing suite...at the hospital







:
Back in my own home, we made a nest for our baby...family bed, b-feeding, organic, homegrown...love love love.
Shock....transverse breach, big healthy baby 57cm long at birth, 35cm head (big head like his mama) I was a size 6!!
C-section...I cried for days...
Next shock...tongue tied, could have surgery, but no aneasthetic, not for my precious baby, no-circ either...back off you butchers!!!
Lucky he was 9lb born...we tried lactation consult, herbs, acupuncture you name it.
I bled, he lost weight...we wailed together in the nite. No help from mum, she nursed 6...just popped them on and off they went.
Nasty SIL (4mths preg) said she'd read somewhere that "they can even get MEN to b-feed now...b*tch...but there's karma...she has not been able to feed her three...and stuck them in daycare at 6WEEKS!!!! she doesn't work either, but she does have nice nails, hair and goes to the gym!!!
Anyway, he went on the formula at my dh's insistance
Now he's 5 and a half...and so beautiful...no allergies yet, so clever, reading age of 9 or 10 ( I was a teacher)
Happy healthy, gymnastics, tennis...organic, sugar-free
I recovered from PPD...exercise, sleep, love...no help though...wish I had a supportive family...but I have MY family now...DH, PB (precious boy) and me.


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## TurboClaudia

question for you all: what does giving formula to a baby do to their digestive system? positives and negatives? please cite sources and give links (if you have them).

thank you!

warmly,
claudia


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## yamjam

Ah, I'm another member of this sad tribe. I am proud that I've been able to nurse my son 6 months now, although he gets less than half his milk from me. But what he does get is a great comfort to him and so it's been worth it--and like so many of you ladies, I've tried everything.

I'm currently on Domperidone, which is allowing me to have the little milk I do have. But it's also suppressing my periods. Have any of you been on dom and stopped taking it? How long did it take for your fertility to return? I'd like to TTC as soon as we're done nursing.

I don't know when that will be, but the dom seems to be losing its effectiveness for me...


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## Vixxen

You know I was thinking the other day that the domperidone must be suppressing my periods too. Makes sense I guess b/c it elevates your prolactin levels. Right now not having a period is just fine with me b/c we aren't trying to get pregnant until next year. Unless once I come off of it will it take a long time to get my period back.


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## scubamom

i was wondering about it all too, i have been on domperidon for 8.5 months now and never seen a sign of my periods yet, and i will want to ttc early next year, should i stop taking it now?? but then i will have no supply. So do i have to quit nursing so my periods will come back and can have another baby.
im so confused. i dont want to stop nursing but with wanting to concieve and returning to work in january do i have much choice.









yanjam, i agree i think dom has lost lots of its effectiveness for me too


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## Victorian

Hi. Just wnated to point our that I am not on dom. and Niko is 15 months old and I am period free still







.

don't have any advice on stopping nursing to tcc. I am not going to try again. But that is a good question.....did you go to a fertility expert? Maybe the ladies on the TCC board here might have some ideas or suggestions if you ask them.

V.


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## deymm

bumping


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## Curious

Chronic low supply mama here, updating on Dd. She's 3-1/2 this week, and still happily, and frequently nursing.

After nursing awhile, she sometimes tells me the milk runs out, and that she has to switch sides and wait a few minutes for more. This is the pattern I suspected in the first weeks. Sometimes she nurses "until it's all gone." She also tells me she loves the milk that it is delicious, and it smells good.

I remember all the tears I shed, thinking we'd never have a real nursing relationship.

Best to all.


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## karenge

I used to come here often, when ds was first born. We tried for 6 long months to bf, but it wasnt meant to be. Actually he did nurse, but always needed a supplement after a nursing session. Everything i went thru is much too much to type. He will be one on 2/22 and is a very healthy and active little boy. NOw, i am pregnant again. Hoping that we have a great bf'ing experience this time, but only 4 weeks pg i am already stressed abt it, and i do know that thats NOT a good thing. I have been told to stop stressing, but i cant. Thats like telling me not to breathe. Now, i did exclusively bf dd until she was 9 mo and weaned herself. DS was born 3 weeks early and had a tight frenulum that wasnt discovered until he was 3mo, too late. I could never get my supply up. Anyway, obviously i want to do what i can to make it better this time, other than having his or her freunulum checked right away, is there anyhting i can do/take now to encourage good supply? Even if its only something little, and extra vitamin or something. I think if i were doing something to potentially help, i might now be so worried abt it. BC i know worrying abt it will only hurt my supply more.
thanks for listening.
karen


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## JenInMpls

Glad to find others in the same big boat. I'm just jumping in because I don't know that I have the energy right now to read all of the 10 pages prior to this one.

My son will be 5 mos this week and we've been nursing with the SNS since 3 weeks old. I tried Domperidone but the difference it made in how much formula we needed to use was negligible (sp?), it mostly made me leak overnight. As it is I have enough milk to nurse him in bed in the middle of the night.

Look forward to your insights.

Jen


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## deymm

Jen,

I love your sig. You're right--it's about MUCH more than breast milk.

We used the SNS and Lact-Aid for about 9 months. It was a hard road. But we stuck with it and my little guy is still nursing strong at 14 months.

Hang in there, set small goals, and keep your chin up. You're giving your son an amazing gift!


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## Prajnamommy

I feel accepted...I spent so much time crying about having no milk in my son's first three months of life. I felt betrayed by my body also as another person has mentioned. I was angry at everyone who breastfed with such ease and were able to provide for their little ones, I was angry at people who had milk and didn't use it .....I kept hoping for success I saw lactation consultants, numerous doctors, and reading what I could. I took drugs, I ditched the drugs, I took herbs, I ditched the herbs, I pumped, I cried, I tried positive visualition etc. I felt alone, sad, betrayed and judged especially by the local LLL. And finally I woke up and said my son does not deserve a sad Mommy and we will do the best we can. Which was nurse for comfort and formula for nourishment. A kind doctor told me that not all benifiets from nursing are from the milk itself and that I could still provide all the other positive stuff from nursing by bottle feeding like I was nursing.....Yes, I am sad sometimes but we do what we can and I bottle feed like I am BF (holding close to my body, taking our time, his hand is often caressing my breast, I switch sides even, never propping the bottle and when he looks at me I am looking at him) I worry about allergies but I feel in my heart that we will do what we can and that will be the right way for us.

My difficulties are from the same hormonal problems that led a doctor to tell me I would never get pregnant with out intervention. we tried for years with no success and gave up hope 10 years after our initial visit I became pregnant! In the grand scheme of things not having breast milk was yes really upsetting but dwelling on it was no way to honour the birth and miracle of my baby boy....Life has been so much better now that I am able to be realy present for my son.....


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## nursingMomOfTwo

Hi, I am so frustrated that I have barely the time to post here or even to read all the many pages of posts in this category. I have had a long struggle with my milk supply, and was finally making some progress when suddenly my baby went on a nursing strike. He has two ear infections and bronchiolitis and that is probably the reason (I'm hoping). He started antibiotic last night and hopefully once he's better he'll return to nursing. However, it's been like 3-4 days now of no nursing, and I've been having to constantly pump to try to keep up my supply. This morning, I finally got about 7oz instead of the usual 4-5oz in the morning, and I was so excited but then the subsequent pumpings which were every 2-3 hours, I could only get 2oz each time! I have never gotten so little unless I had decreased frequency. I don't know what this means. I am so stressed that I worry that it's the stress, but then again, I've had stress all along and usually get more than that. I am so worried about not making enough for my baby who is still on this nursing strike. Meantime my dh is spending all day trying to get milk & food into him, using a dropper for the milk. The sippy cup spilled too much and the dropper seemed to work well. However, I am really stressed that this strike will cause my supply to dwindle to nothing, or that he will never return to the breast.


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## nursingMomOfTwo

Oh, I forgot to mention that I work full time and pump every 2-3 hours at work. Sometimes I only get time to pump twice and that is when the supply decreases. I'm taking fenugreek and pumping after I nurse him (before the nursing strike started) and was also pumping an extra time during his nap. In the mornings I knew I had more so I was pumping a couple of ounces before feedeing him. Howeve,r now I'm worried that pumping before feeding him might have been part of what caused the nursing strike -- I just don't know. Any advice on getting him back? I already read everything on the LLL site and everything I could find on the internet and am trying everything I can.


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## TurboClaudia

do you have the option of hiring a lactation consultant? many health insurances will cover them. if you birthed at a hospital, they will certainly have one or more on staff.

also, i might recommend you take him to a holistic chiropractor who specializes in working with infants and children. we've been working with one for about four months now and i think she has been a great help for our little guy. she notices the slightest tensions in his body and helps him to be able to relax, especially his jaw and cheeks.

check out the www.kellymom.com website for more thoughts on nursing strikes.

and victorian, tell her about N.'s nursing strike and his return to the boob after two weeks (more? less?).

sending you lotsa hugs...









warmly,
claudia


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## Victorian

26 days! I pumped for 2 weeks and then gave up when I was out of milk! He went back to the breast and the milk came back too. I tried everything...finally got him to nurse in his sleep. He opemed his eyes and got the most dreamy happy look in his eyes and was back to 7-10x a day. He had hand/foot/mouth disease and had sores all over him mouth.

Don'y give up! How old is your baby? Do you know a IBCLC? would your doctor prescrip Domperidone?

Claudia - glad to here M is doing well. Hope to see you soon!


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## JenInMpls

Sorry to hear about the nursing strike. I have only read what Victorian said, namely to try to get them to nurse when they're sleepy as they'll maybe do it out of habit/instinct.

Does anyone else find it sickeningly, bitterly ironic that some (many? most?) of us suffer from the same ailments every other nursing mother does - mastitis, plugged ducts, milk blisters, etc - and yet we don't get the little benefit of being able to breastfeed without supplementation?








:

I've just had my 3rd plugged duct in 4 months, had thrush for 3 of the 5 months he's been alive and have already had a close call with mastitis and even a breast cancer scare!

I have to remind myself frequently how much I love my kid, and that's why I do this...

jen


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## nursingMomOfTwo

Thanks for your story. I hope it doesn't last that long. I don't know how I could make it through that. I'm only on the 3rd day and am already crying all day. I have to work and I'm already incapable of focusing at work with all the pumping I have to do, and now this is making it impossible for me to do anything. I am so worried that it's probably causing the supply to reduce just from the stress. I have pumped every 2-3 hrs today and each time I only seem to be getting about 2oz. I assume this sudden reduction is due to the lack of real nursing. My biggest fear is that very quickly there will be nothing left, and then what on earth will I do? It's promising to know yours dried up and then started again when your baby started nursing again. I've tried nursing him while he sleeps but he's a light sleeper and immediately wakes up and turns away. He has 2 ear infections and bronchialitis, and I'm really hoping that this is the reason he's doing this. However, I've tried all kinds of other positions that would avoid any pain to the ear, so I guess that leaves the stuffy nose reason. He has no problem with a bottle, though we've minimized it to one bottle at night. During the day we're using a dropper but it takes forever and he's not getting enough that way. The worst part is the doctor wants us to work on getting his weight up. He's 10 months, yet he weighs only 15lbs 9oz. He was 1 month premature, and has always followed a normal curve (even though he's just below the chart) until now. He recently slipped a little, probably due to being sick, but now with this strike... I'm torn between using the dropper to avoid him weaning and using the bottle to make sure he gets enough. I don't know what to do!


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## nursingMomOfTwo

I forgot to answer the question about hiring an LC -- I suppose I should talk to one. However, I talked to LLL and they gave me a ton of advice. I don't know what more they could tell me, as it's not a latching on problem, it's an "I don't want anything to do with it" problem. Perhaps there's an infant psychologist who can help me! (just kidding)


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## DaryLLL

Hang in there, nursingMom! If he is 10 mos and loved to nurse before, he will love to nurse again once he feels better.

Besides the antibiotics, there is a good herbal treatment for earaches, garlic and mullein oil in the ear. You can drip a little in at least one ear when he is sleeping on his side. It contains anti-bacterial properties and also soothes pain.

If he is in a lot of pain, are you doing Motrin? The risks are tiny and the benefits would be huge if he will then feel up to coming back to the breast.

Are you using humidifiers in the house to make the air less dry? This can help with stuffiness too, esp in the bedroom at night.

Are you staying topless at home? Are you wearing him in the sling a lot, you topless, him in just a diaper? Some striking babies will nurse upright on your hip as you move and walk, when they won't do it in the cradle hold sitting or lying down.

What about in the tub? Take a bath together. Don't neccessarily offer the breast, just have it out there at all times. That is my idea.


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## nursingMomOfTwo

We do have humidifier that follows him wherever he sleeps (sometimes his room, usually ours). I have had the skin-to-skin contact from the time I get home till bed time in one way or another. I still have to try the bath. The biggest problem is that my stress from not getting other things done increases when I do something like take a bath, and also, my toddler has his 4th birthday party on Sunday, and I have practically zero time to even get ready for all the folks coming over. I am going to try really hard tonight to get to try a bath.


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## puffmama

These low-supply threads just help me out so much! I found out about my low supply when my ds was 7 weeks old, still at his birthweight, and hadn't gained any weight in 2 weeks! Our doctor (midwife and naturopath) was very lax the whole way along about the weight gain- DS (obviously) wasn't at his birthweight at the 10 day visit & she said don't worry- he had lost a lot of weight after birth & since I had to have a c-section







(after 4 nights and days of labor), sometimes it took longer for milk to come in. He was nursing ALL the time & has an awesome suck.

Then we did a quick weigh at about 5 weeks w/diaper and onsie on when I had stopped in to get some vitamins-- he was just above the birthweight & she was pleased that he had gained weight since the last visit (though I calculated just 3-4 oz a week in that time, & was kind of woried that he seemed fussy at the breast- like he wasn't getting enough).
The next visit at 7 weeks he was actually 3 oz less, but didn't have the clothes on... still at birthweight!! Doc then gave me some formula and told me to supplement him with this while I worked on getting my supply up. I couldn't believe that a naturopath had just gven me formula, but in retrospect, I think she was a little shocked and scared that she hadn't noticed a problem sooner. she said, "I had one other lady this year that had similar problems". Only one other lady??? I called up the LC to help me organize how I was going to icrease my supply and get my baby up to speed all at the same time, since I figured they deal with these problems more than our doctor!
LC gave me a sheet about pumping that they give to moms with babes in the ICU and a regimine that looked like this: 1. nurse your baby, 2. feed your baby EBM, 3.feed your baby formula if still hungry 4. pump REPEAT 8-10x day I did this for a couple weeks, then went down to pumping just a few times a day.

These are the other things I have done: vitamin B shot, checked my thyroid & started taking thyrod for a 'so-so' function, fenugreek, brewers yeast, oatmeal, goats rue, greens. I just started the goats rue, it seems to work pretty well. that and the fenugreek have made the biggest difference.
I also feed baby all the time, & co-sleep. my breasts have always been kind of small and wide spaced, though not so small as the hypoplastic ones posted around on these threads. I didn't go up a bra size while pregnant, though I did 'fill' my pre-preg size better.

I started back to work part-time & when I'm away, I pump usually around 2-2.5 oz from both breasts combined every 2-3 hrs. Wondering how well some of you others do in the same boat? 9work/pumping?)

DS is 16 weeks now. I have increased my supply, but not enough to cut out the supplements.
I know most of you get angry at your doctors for being too rigid with the weigh ins, but I get kind of angry that our doctor wasn't rigid enough to detect my supply problem sooner. Who knows if I would have done better if we had caught it right off the bat & had me pumping more right away?? The LC said to focus on 'maximizing my potential', but I can't help but wonder if there wasn't a way I could do better than that and cut out the supplements???
I feel so crappy about giving formula. In fact, so crappy, now my doctor says she worries about me & thinks I need to join a support group. Well, at least these threads make me realize that there are more of you out there, and also, that my feelings of sadness and upset at the issue are normal.


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## BlueMoonTime

Hello! Another low-milk momma over here... I found out when my baby girl was about three months that I simply could not produce enough even after drinking 80 ozs of water a day, eating oatmeal, taking motherlove more milk and the whole nine yards... I've been forced to put my darling on formula because of this but still can pump anywhere from 2-4 ozs a day... I figure that's still better than no momma milk at all...

In any case, I feel better knowing that I'm not alone over here and am glad to "meet" you all.

{{{huggs}}}


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## milk4two

I'm glad to find this tribe, although I'm sorry there are so many of us.

I breastfed my last two children without any supply problems that I know of & tandem nursed for almost 2 years, so finding I had low supply came as a complete shock.

When I took my newborn twins in for their 2 week checkup they had lost quite a bit of weight. I knew they weren't nursing enough because they slept so much during the day, but I was scared that they had lost so much weight. The ped recommended supplementing at that point. One of my dear friends is an LC and helped me figure out how much each babe needed to get in ounces. We were fighting yeast and although I pumped and bottlefed for a while my supply got less and less.

I finally decided to add formula and they are still getting more formula than breastmilk. My supply is almost nothing on one side (due to lumpectomy years ago I think) so I have used a SNS on that side several times, but the nipple is also flat and it's a royal PITB.

I think we are finally kicking the yeast after 3 weeks of diflucan, and I am now taking domperidone in order to up my supply. Life is really stressful right now with the twins, colic, having to switch formulas due to dairy sensitivity, and nearly no sleep but things are slowly getting better.


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## BlueMoonTime

We used an SNS for a couple of weeks too and they certainly are a PITB!!! The stress wasn't worth it at all...


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## nursingMomOfTwo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *puffmama*
...I started back to work part-time & when I'm away, I pump usually around 2-2.5 oz from both breasts combined every 2-3 hrs. Wondering how well some of you others do in the same boat? 9work/pumping?)

Dear puffmama, thanks for your post. It appears we are making the same amount of milk. I also make 2-2.5 oz per 2-3 hours. I was told by a friend that she was getting 1 oz per hour. My baby is 10 months old. He is only almost 16lbs. Although I think he looks fine, the last two visits we had with the doctor she said that he's no longer following the normal growth curve. She had said he was not even on the chart, but that this was fine as long as his rate of growth was consistent. I'm very stressed that it is now not consistent. I was okay the 1st time I heard it, but then after adding yogurt to his diet and trying to feed him as much as possible for a month and then going back to find he only gained 4oz, really stressed me out. The worst part is that he has been on a nursing strike for over a week. This means I have to pump constantly just to try to make enough for him. I seem to be able to make 15-18oz of milk and am giving him organic plain yogurt and cereal that has formula ingredients in it to him as a supplement. But for drinking, it's EBM. I am taking fenugreek but it doesn't seem to do that much anymore (or maybe I'd be getting less if I weren't taking it?). I've been thinking of adding Blessed Thistle since that's supposed to go well with fenugreek. I am mostly distraught that he's underweight and that he won't nurse. The not nursing sure makes it even harder to keep up the supply. It's one thing to pump 3x a day at work, it's another to also have to pump once before leaving work, 3x at work, once when I get home and once or twice before bed time. I am SO EXHAUSTED and still very sad that he won't nurse because I figure if he just would go back to nursing the supply might go back up again. By the way, it takes me like 30-40mins to pump! I am doing 2-sided with a hospital grade electric pump that I rented. Are you doing it two-sided? That's supposed to increase the hormone that causes your supply to go up.


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## JenInMpls

What do you all do to get over the emotions that come up when you're with someone who's nursing and has a full supply? e.g.: listening to another baby nurse gulping down breast milk, or having someone say right after their letdown that if they let go of their nipple, their milk would shoot across the room. I find myself sometimes so overcome by sadness and sometimes jealousy and would love to hear how all of you deal with it and have overcome it.

Thanks, jen.


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## nursingMomOfTwo

JenInMpls,
I think that we are all capable of having a very close, loving relationship with our children with or without breast feeding. I think that all of us with the low supply are doing our best to give our children as much as we possibly can so that they can benefit from breastmilk, even if it isn't "shooting across the room". I think it's wonderful that you're doing whatever you can and there's no reason to feel guilty or bad or inadequate that your child is being supplemented. The important thing is that you do everything you can for your child. In the end, your satisfaction can come from knowing that you left no stone unturned and that your child received as much benefit as could be derived from what you were able to offer. I think this applies to parenting in general. That person sitting next to you may have had tons of milk for her child and you may have a lot less, but I am positive that there are other areas of caring for your child in which you will excell over her or others, and vice-versa.


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## TurboClaudia

well said, nursingMomOfTwo...









how are you doing today and how is your little one doing?

sending you and JenInMpls lots of love and hugs...









warmly,
claudia


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
sending you and JenInMpls lots of love and hugs...









Thanks, I can use it, I have a wicked case of mastitis right now...







:

And nursingmomof2, good points, I try really hard to remember those things... one thing that has helped me a lot was something that one of the other Sept 04 mamas told me: love is an act. When I go to so much trouble to do something for Tristan that I feel is important to him, it shows him love.

Tristan has determined: even salty, infected breast milk tastes better than formula!! :LOL

jen


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## aussiemum

JenInMpls, I know well those feelings of sadness & jealousy. WIth my first child, I don't think I dealt with it very well- it was just such a shock to have low-supply... I mean, I never ever imagined that such a thing could happen... I thought everyone could breastfeed forever if they wanted to, if only they tried hard enough.... So, I spent way too much time mulling that one over, & I didn't go outside the house if DD was going to need a bottle. I'd wait until she had her bottle, & then go to the park, or the shops, or wherever. Finally I just avoided other mothers for a while, until she was about 12 months or so, & then I would take a sippy cup out with us instead of a bottle.... I don't think this is a particularly _healthy_ approach, it's just what I did. When my DS was born 2 years after DD, I didn't really have much choice but to hang around other mums, & I knew it was possible that the low supply problem would happen again, so I just had to suck up & deal with it, I guess. My closest friend had twins 2 months after I had my DS, & she pretty much exclusively bf them for a year. So I had a lot of practice feeling happy for the good fortune of others, whilst trying not to dwell on my own problems. Making myself feel happy for others & being encouraging in general towards bfing really helped me deal with the jealousy monster, I think..... It sounds a bit mad, but I am now genuinely pleased when I see a successful bf story- I am so happy knowing that someone else will not go through what I & so many others have had to go thru. But I still gave DS the bottle at home only, unless I absolutely couldn't avoid going out. I hated people seeing me giving my kid a bottle.







:

It's such a cliche, but I think overall it's time that has helped me heal the most..... (& the kind words of some very wise mamas around here) ((((Jen))))


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## nursingMomOfTwo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
well said, nursingMomOfTwo...









how are you doing today and how is your little one doing?

sending you and JenInMpls lots of love and hugs...









warmly,
claudia

Thanks for asking, he's doing great. I found a lot of helpful information at the following kellymom.com web pages. I would encourage everyone to read them if you haven't already:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/milkcalc.html

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/p..._decrease.html

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/low-supply.html

http://parenting.ivillage.com/baby/b...=adid=13618204

This helped me to know that I'm not doing too bad with what I'm producing, though I did start giving him a cereal that my doctor recommended that has ingredients of formula in it. He is also having yogurt each morning. I'm hoping these two things will help get his weight up, along with my constant pumping to keep the supply up, since he is still on the nursing strike. I am keeping a log on how much I produce every day and it seems that my supply is not decreasing even though I'm only pumping. I just hope this keeps up. I had thought it was decreasing, but this just turned out to be the fact that I do it different times of day each time and that was causing inconsistency in the amounts. Now with the log, I can just look at the overall total at the end of the day. This made me realize that the times when I only pump like 1oz vs 3oz, really don't matter as long as at the end of the day I am making about as much as I made the day before. Each morning I attempt to get ds to nurse again. He kind of considers it, then makes some fussy sounds, then considers it again. He used to give me a little bite (not really biting down, just putting his teeth there and then turning away... kind of weird). Now he's not doing that. He just looks like he's turning to nurse but then turns away making fussy sounds. Without letting it get to the point of frustrating him, I try this each day and then move on to his breakfast and then bottle. I am not giving him a cup or dropper any more because I have decided to give the weight issue priority and we just can't get enough of my breast milk into him with the other methods either because of spilling, or because of his impatience. So I will do the bottle of breastmilk thing till he's not sick any more and weight is up.
Thanks again for asking.


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## heathenmom

This thread seems to have died, but I'm gonna post here anyway, because I seriously need a shoulder to cry on.

Like so many of you whose stories I read, I've struggled with supply issues from day one. DD was 10 lbs. 9 oz. at birth, and every single person in the hospital, from the midwife to the LACTATION CONSULTANT told me I'd have to supplement because I'd never be able to make enough milk to feed her. Call it a self-fulfilling prophecy or whatever, but as much as I tried to prove them all wrong, I couldn't. We did okay on the weekends and rarely had to supplement when I was with dd all day, but I went back to work when she was just 7 weeks old and was never able to pump enough each day to keep from supplementing during the week. I tried fenugreek, oatmeal, herbal teas, pumping more ... nothing I did increased it, but we kept up a fairly stable routine until she hit 5 months. DD got sick then and limited her nursing a lot, which caused my supply to drop. I tried the whole gamut again, even adding the motherlove more milk and more milk special blend, with absolutely no increase at all.

DD will be 7 months next week, and I'm lucky if she'll nurse 2-3 times/day, for a minute or 2, before she pulls off screaming. I wanted to bf so badly, but I'm just so tired and stressed out from this. I'm going to try to keep going until the 21st (when she's officially 7 months), but after that I just give up. It's breaking my heart, but I can't keep doing this. It's affecting my job, and I'm the family breadwinner.

I don't know what I expect to get out of posting this, except to get it off my chest once and for all. Thanks for listening.


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## TurboClaudia

heathenmom: sending you lots of hugs and love
















I can totally relate to the feeling of I can't do this any more and why doesn't my baby want to breastfeed because I really want him to. And then I cry and sob and squeeze him tighter as he screams inconsolably. And then I remember that now that he's physically not connected to me anymore means that my job as a parent has changed. I'm no longer the only thing he knows. I'm his teacher and guide and safe place to fall back on, but ultimately I have to prepare him to be his own person. I certainly never expected to be reminded of that fact when he was four months old, though.

I don't feel like I'm explaining myself well, but I wanted to send you lots more love and hugs and the reminder that you are being the best mama you can be.

~claudia


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## liz_0927

Thanks so much, Claudia ... it really does help to know that you're not the only mom going through this. It seems like every mom I know IRL has/had no problems at all and stopped just because they considered bfing an inconvenience (grrrr) or something. Bottom line, though ... I'm going to have to learn to let than anger and frustration go and deal with things as they are instead of how I want or expected them to be.

Thanks again ...


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## deymm

Hugs to you heathenmom!

Just think, you've given your little one 7 months of breastmilk! That's awesome!

Keep your chin up and know you're not alone.


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## JenInMpls

I would like to hear from moms who have used supplementers (Lact-Aid, SNS, etc) and have managed to stop using the supplementer while continuing to nurse - or who have tried, at least.

Tristan is going on 9 mos old and while I would like him to nurse as long as he sees fit, we wouldn't mind stopping the formula after a year - the stuff's SO expensive.

Please share your thoughts!

Thanks, Jen


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## Victorian

Hi Jen. I used a SNS system when ds was small, switched to bottles after a while and supplemented the entire first year. We are still nursing at 23 months (and we went through a 26 day nursing strike!). He still takes a bottle of soymilk when he asks for it, I never "weaned" him from the bottle, he just stopped needing it after he increased his solids and tippy-cup fluids. How much supplement is he getting on a daily basis? I switched to goats milk/soy milk after 8 months when his donor milk dried up (at the suggestion of our Naturopathic doctor.) Have you tried WIC for help with the formula cost?

V.


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## Curious

Dd hated the supplementer after her first good drink in days as a near newborn. She would fuss, and get tangled in the tubing. A few weeks later I stopped using it and went to a Haberman feeder, which she never liked much either. She nursed for what she could get and tolerated the bottle for the rest. And she didn't take solids until her first teeth came in at 13 months. We used Baby's Only organic formula. The formula smelled nothing like my milk (which smells like creme brulee), and that may have been part of why the bottle was always greated with low enthusiasm.

When she was 14 months old, she was taking lots of food, still nursing, and was pushed the bottle away with a great look of disgust. I never offered it again.

We are still nursing, and Dd is pushing 4.

I know this doesn't quite answer your question. You could try the MOBI (Mothers overcoming breastfeeding issues) because I know there are people there who have weaned older babies from the supplementerGood luck.


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## TurboClaudia

We alternated using a Lact-Aid and giving bottles from age 4.5 months to age 9 months, when our son's solid food intake took off in a major way, i.e. he started eating more oatmeal for breakfast than either of us. He had 6 teeth at age 9 months. We supplemented with donor milk and goat's milk with oil, iron and folic acid added. We are still nursing at age 12 months, albeit only 3-5 times a day. We also accidentally nightweaned last month when I started breaking the latch because he was chewing on me and rocking him to sleep. I wish I hadn't had to nightwean because my moontime returned this past week, but if I have learned anything through all our milk supply issues, it's that it's not about what I want or need, it's about what our little guy wants and needs. It still surprises me that I had to recognize this when he was just 4.5 months old... I thought for sure I'd have at least a few years before I would have to acknowledge the beginning of his independence.

I'm happy to answer more questions or to tell you more about our situation. Let me know.

warmly,
claudia


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## talia rose

i found this thread looking for a conversation about supplementing with goat's milk, and wow you are all sure my tribe! i can relate to so much, the weeks of tears when i realized i would have to supplement ( i was really an emotional stressed out wreck!), the hiding of the bottle in public, the thought of why other people have so much and i can only make so little.....(and with my son 12 years ago i made abundandt milk)

my dd is now 8 months and i have been supplementing since she was 3 1/2 months, when i realized she had stopped gaining. this was after my (about) 60th plugged duct. (i take homeopathic phytolacca to clear it up before it reaches the full blown mastitis stage - which is a GODSEND for those of you dealing with clogged ducts/mastitis. also lethicin 3 x day) grace was born at 36 weeks (at home in the water, thank you midwives!) but was really not ready to be born. her lungs were underdeveloped and we had to transport. her thyroid wasn't quite working - we did vitamin supplements. she didn't poop but once in 23 days, but her weight gain at that time was borderline okay so the fact that she wasn't getting enough milk wasn't discovered until later when it was really too late to get my supply up. i make about 2 oz every few hours and all the pumping and herbs and prayers have not been able to change that. we went through horrible systemic yeast that i felt like added to the clogged duct problem that added to the milk supply problem. i have spent days just crying from the pain of yeast nipples and clogged ducts but nothing was going to make me give up breastfeeding. now she is on about half goat's milk half breast. we gave a bottle (so freaked out i didn't even consider the supplementers at almost 4 months)and now she is such a bad nurser during the day that most of it gets pumped out and given to her the next morning ( i also stay up late at night and pump after she is asleep for those precious 2 oz)) at night she is a good nurser and i let her as much as she needs to. i knew i wanted to supplement with goat's milk but found little support for it. as it turned out this was our only option, as my daughter is gluten intolerant and so sensitive she will react to the milk if the cows were fed grain (which all cows are) fortunately i have access to gluten free goats milk. we boil it, then make into a formula, cutting the protein with water, adding back in carbs (we are using organic mollasses - which i hope addresses the low iron) and hemp oil for fats. she is now loving her solids which helps too. i'm wanting to put her back on straight goats milk as it is time to begin proteins, so why not get them from the goats milk? i'm also wondering when it is safe to stop boiling it and begin to give her raw. does anyone know about this?

this has been a crazy journey and sure not what i expected. i still get stressed on low milk days that it will dry up completely and our nursing relationship will be over. i am grateful every day i can give her a 4-5 oz bottle of pumped milk in the morning - the efforts of pumping 3-5 times during the day. i am also thrilled that our skinny little baby has blossomed into a fat little girl, thriving on the goats. i am a doula and prenatal yoga teacher and i am very grateful for the experience which will help me help others. since this began for me there have been 3 other woman in my classes who for one reason or another cannot make enough milk. 1 of them is using the supplementer system and i applaud her amazing commitment. she gets 1/2 oz when she pumps and that makes my 2 feel abundandt. none of us are alone. i'm glad i found you all.


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## aussiemum

Hi Talia, a belated welcome to the tribe! How is it going with the goats milk? I'm afraid I don't know the first thing about the stuff, hope it's still going well for you.....

And I am shamelessly bumping this thread to front page again.









word on the streets is that another MDC mama with breastfeeding difficulties is out there, & she needs a little love & support.... hope she finds us......


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## rainbowfairymomma

Quote:

word on the streets is that another MDC mama with breastfeeding difficulties is out there, & she needs a little love & support.... hope she finds us.....
THATS ME!!!!!! Help me mommas!!!
this is so tough!! here is some backround info:

I had my first DS when I was 17 and had a HORRIFIC c-section birth experience.
I was told my milk 'never came in' (now i know this wasn't the case) I was given some type of drug to produce milk and that didn't work. They put my son on formula about day 3! (MISTAKE but I didn't know at the time) anyway I supplimented and that was pretty much the end of our brestfeeding experience. I was told horrible things like I was too young etc...









With my second DS I research ALOT and had a wonderful BEAUTIFUL home birth!!!














and was determined that breastfeeding would work....
I ended up calling my midwife day 3 or 4 crying because I didn't think my milk had come in and DS was acting so hungry. Her assistant came over and realised that my milk had come in *sigh* (it was happening again...) anyway I didn't want to give up and kept feeding at 3 weeks and being supplimented with SMALL amounts of breastmilk (from a friend) from a dropper at night my DS was still 8oz below birth weight and was one unhappy hungry baby















I was at a loss and started on formula after nursing him first...
I've tried oatmeal, fenugreek, pumping in between feeds and after feeds, mothers milk tea, brewers yeast, and amromatherapy spray used to increase supply... all with no luck.







He is currently being supplimenting with Organic Formula
Some days I want this to work more then anything and others I feel like giving up. I'm at a loss of what to do...
I just want to cry... I feel so horrible that this is happening..

for more info I am overweight (have recently read this could have something to do with it) and also have very small breasts...
what is the reason for low milk?
I haven't had time to read this thread but will start tomorrow!


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## Victorian

s you are doing great. Have you tried pumping WHILE nursing? That worked for me to get more milk. What pump are you using? Have you tried Domperidone (a prescription drug)? Did your breasts change at all during pregnancy?

Are you seeing an IBCLC? They can really help, breastfeeding is what they do. Even a midwife is no substitute.

Congradulations on the newone!!!!

Victoria (who over came all the problems you are having, supplemented till 1 year, had mastitis and plugged duct and a 26 day nursing strike at 18 months and is STILL nursing at 24.5 months - and it is SO WORTH IT)


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## JenInMpls

Amanda, honey, I think there is no one out there who can tell us why this is happening to us. Even the so-called experts end up throwing their hands up in the air when we list off everything we've tried that didn't work. We vex them. And I honestly think they don't like it. My experience was very similar to yours except I got a hybrid situation - I had the horrible c-section, my first, but was very supported with working on getting my milk to come in, etc. Herbs, oatmeal, beer, domperidone, constant nursing, you name it, I did it, it didn't matter, I've made max 1/2 oz per breast per nursing. I have had mastitis, and I have had numerous plugged ducts. Tristan has been on formula since 1 month with a switch to organic around 4 mos (took us that long to find it, duh), we still nurse daily with the SNS and sometimes without if he's full on solids. It has been assumed (basically all of the options narrowed down) that I have only a few working milk ducts, the others did not mature during pregnancy as they were supposed to or there just aren't enough; my breasts are also typical for hypoplasia. If there is a baby #2 I will be taking progesterone supplements to see if it makes a difference; a study done showed that this sometimes can stimulate your body to make a better supply.

I just wish I could reach into the computer and give you a big hug and then make you look into my eyes and say: yes. It's horrible. Be stubborn. Breastfeeding your baby is soooooo important. Try a supplementer like a Lact-Aid or an SNS for a month (don't give yourself just a few days, it will make you crazy and you will throw the fool thing in the trash!). Some women like them, some don't. At any rate, don't think that just because you are supplementing means you have to stop nursing your baby... see my sig!!!

good luck, Jen


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## aussiemum

Welcome, amanda!







You actually weren't the member I was thinking of when I wrote my last post, but i'm sure glad you found us. So, that now makes two mamas that I know of who need our help & support right now.....

I second all of Vic's suggestions. Maybe try the breast compression technique whilst feeding your little one. It helped a little for me, but prolly would have been most useful if I tried it in conjunction with a hands-free electric pump.... didn't think of it at the time. Ah well.

Also, as far as I know, breast size doesn't matter when it comes to milk production. Anectdotally, I can think of a number of small breasted mamas who didn't have a supply problem (including one friend who bf twins for a year). I don't know if being overweight can cause supply problems- I haven't heard that one before. Intuitively it doesn't make sense to me, but I dunno.....

Let's see, if I calculate the dates right, your new bub is about 10 weeks old. I hate to ask the dreaded question, but how's his weight gain going? And how much formula do you estimate that you supplement each day? Just trying to get a fuller picture of your situation........ you are doing great, mama, hang in there, & most importantly, remember to be gentle on yourself when you're feeling down...


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## aussiemum

Quote:

It has been assumed (basically all of the options narrowed down) that I have only a few working milk ducts, the others did not mature during pregnancy as they were supposed to or there just aren't enough;
Yes, I suspect this was a issue with my breasts as well. I remember one day visiting with a friend who was pumping at the time, & I was just _amazed_ that the milk came out from like 5 different places at once! Heck, I didn't even know that breasts did that! :LOL For me, there was a little dribble that would come from one place on the right breast (at full steam pumping only), & I think I had two working ducts on the left side.

Quote:

Amanda, honey, I think there is no one out there who can tell us why this is happening to us. Even the so-called experts end up throwing their hands up in the air when we list off everything we've tried that didn't work. We vex them. And I honestly think they don't like it.
I'll second that one as well, altho I think that more & more LCs are starting to understand that the old idea that any woman can breastfeed if she just tries hard enough is wrong. It's more complicated than that, as we all know so painfully well. I reckon there's a reason why wet nurses used to be so popular......


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## MarcyC

I'm so glad I found this tribe!!! What great support for those of us with low supply! I'm currently nursing and using an SNS. I've been so fortunate to have 3 of them just given to me for FREE!!! I try to pump and use breastmilk in it when/if I can, but more often than not it's formula.

I just ordered my More Milk Special Blend and some more domperidone, but honestly if this doesn't increase my supply significantly, I may just give up. I'm so tired of all this SNS tubing, etc. I tried just nursing and then following up with a bottle, but that extended our feeding sessions to over an hour. Not that I minded the excuse to snuggle my girl for over an hour, kwim? But I also have a 5 yo and 6 yo who kinda want my attention as well...okay...they are craving my attention. (I also homeschool).

Anyway, that was just a short introduction. Oh, I almost forgot, I am fortunate to have a really good ob/gyn this time around. They did bloodwork and discovered I have a mild case of PCOS which may be contributing to my low supply. I also have some really whacked-out hormone imbalances - my prolactin levels are in the low teens/high twenties - not too good for someone trying to nourish a babe.


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## scubamom

hi all.
i havent been back thru all the posts ive missed as its been a while so hi to all.

im just popping back in, as i am expecting #2 and still have no idea why i had such a small supply last time. Any tips ideas of things i can investigate to make easeier this time around?. Although my nipples more sensitive this time, never had any breast changes b4 so maybe a good sign, or im just being delusional.

heather


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## aussiemum

Hi marcy, welcome to the tribe. And scuba, glad to see you are still here at MDC.

Marcy, quick question, how old is your little one? And how much do you reckon your dd takes each day thru the SNS? I hate to ask repetitive questions, but I do think it's important when trying to work exactly where you are in the nursing relationship, iykwim.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamom*
im just popping back in, as i am expecting #2 and still have no idea why i had such a small supply last time. Any tips ideas of things i can investigate to make easeier this time around?. Although my nipples more sensitive this time, never had any breast changes b4 so maybe a good sign, or im just being delusional.

No, I don't think you are being delusional, I think it's very possible that you will have no dramas bf'ing your second child. Again, anecdotally, I can think of mamas who were unable to fully bf their first child, yet have successfully bf their second child past two years, so....







But just in case, be mentally prepared for the possibility that you may face round two of low milk supply... I don't know of any ways to try & increase your supply before your baby is born, but hopefully other mamas might have some suggestions.


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## Victorian

I have heard of this in scientific journals that I have (but am too lazy currently to go find







) that with each baby your chance of fully breastfeeding increases, especially if you have breastfed for a while with the others. They recken that milk ducts can expand and grow as they figure out that you need them too.

what is the saying? Expect the best, but prepare for the worse. For example if you are comfortable with donor milk you could line up some donors now, maybe have some in the freezer just in case.

V.


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## MarcyC

Thank you so much for the quick response! She takes anywhere from 0-5 ounces via the SNS and she nurses 5-6 times a day. She's been sleeping 10-12 hours at night so usually in the morning she can nurse w/o the SNS with no problem, but by mid-afternoon or early evening she can drain 5 oz. (that's when my supply is lowest).

She's 3 1/2 months (she'll be 4 months on Aug. 13th). I don't know her current weight, but she's got rolls!


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## JenInMpls

Marcy - I will quickly say that the SNS gets easier. I only ever use one tube at a time, I tuck the other one up in the neck strap and open it for air return so it doesn't get an air lock going. Are you able to use it without doing the taping? I found that that somehow eased a lot of the stress with it for me. You are SO lucky to have gotten 3 for free! That's a sweet deal!!

I still sometimes grouch about the SNSes, grumbling about "what did I do to deserve this? mumble mumble..." but it's honestly gotten to be 2nd nature for both of us now.

Just to give you a little







for your hard work

xo j


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## Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Thank you so much for the quick response! She takes anywhere from 0-5 ounces via the SNS and she nurses 5-6 times a day. She's been sleeping 10-12 hours at night so usually in the morning she can nurse w/o the SNS with no problem, but by mid-afternoon or early evening she can drain 5 oz. (that's when my supply is lowest).

She's 3 1/2 months (she'll be 4 months on Aug. 13th). I don't know her current weight, but she's got rolls!

why is she nursing so little? has she always nursed so little? You might need to bump that up to 8-12 times a day. Has she always slept so much? Did you do sleep training or is it her natural rythem? the milk at night is highest in fat, in the morning it is more in quantity but less fat. Do you work?


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## MarcyC

Oh, heavens no! She hasn't always nursed that little! My pediatrician asked me very early if she nursed for 20 minutes every 2-3 hours. I said no, she nurses for 2-3 hours every 20 minutes...LOL! She would stay latched on for HOURS! Then she started going a little longer, but was nursing AT LEAST 12 times day - sometimes more than 12. It wasn't until the LC diagnosed me with true low milk supply that she started going longer. I think it took the SNS - she now gets full while nursing. Before she just wasn't getting enough.

She just fell into this sleep pattern on her own. I've always done the eat/play/sleep routine. I'm not a big fan of babywise by any means, but I developed that routine all on my own, kwim? It just kind of made sense to me. She just gradually started sleeping longer (no crying necessary). I don't know if it'll last or not. She doesn't nap regularly during the day...I'm just kinda following her lead.

No, I don't work unless you count homeschooling the older two...doing housework, etc.

I'm glad to hear the SNS gets easier. I still have to tape it down - she's fond of just popping on and off so much that I'd be constantly readjusting the tubing if I didn't tape it down - it's a pain, but honestly right now - it's worth it.


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
I'll second that one as well, altho I think that more & more LCs are starting to understand that the old idea that any woman can breastfeed if she just tries hard enough is wrong. It's more complicated than that, as we all know so painfully well. I reckon there's a reason why wet nurses used to be so popular......

What got me was that it all seemed so black and white when I had Tristan - the LC I worked with saw it kind of as "Well, either you have a full supply, or you bottle feed" - and that was not the answer I was looking for. But when I went looking for answers on my own, it was like a kick in the gut every time I heard "well, there may have been difficulties at first, but it was usually baby's latch, and when baby got latched on right and breast compression was used, and baby was nursed enough, milk supply just 'took off'" (I got this reply almost word-for-word from Dr. Jack Newman after telling him my story and asking him if he knew anything more about hypoplasia. The brush-off really stung). Yeah, I understand that some babies aren't latched on right. Mine was. Or they have a weak suck. Mine didn't. Or mom wasn't eating right or resting enough. I was. But the onus kept falling back on me, it must have been something I was doing wrong. Now I know that it's really my breasts. I look at them in the mirror and frequently say "hey guys, why aren't you making enough milk?". No answer yet









The tide seems to be turning, though, with the publishing of "Breastfeeding After Reduction: Defining your own Success"; the article about mums who bf after reduction in Mothering was great, too. LLL is writing a book about low supply. I reeeeeeally hope it's good...








jen


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## Victorian

I agree that much of the advice is 100% either way and not helpful. It is up to those of us that march to a different drummer to speak up!

I didn't mean to offend you with the sleep training question...just wonder as I know that a lot of people do it and that can affect the milk supply :embarrassed. I would highly suggest that you google "newman breast compression" it would help to get the milk into baby without nursing for hours and also with the pop-off problem.








s

V.


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## talia rose

thanks for the belated welcome! things are going well, i suppose. grace took the goat's milk well until she caught up weightwise and then just stopped. just refused it. fortunately she is chowing down the solids and still getting about 10-16 oz breastmilk a day from me. it's the only liquid besides water she will take. but she is thriving so we are grateful!


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## aussiemum

Talia, it sounds like your DD is doing really well! Congratulations on your successsful supplementation!









Also, I agree that it's easier to bf subsequent children. I'm sure I've said it before, but I just have this feeling that if I had, say, six kids (which I'm not going to do, btw







) I'm sure I would end up being able to fully bf at least one of them.

One mum I know of was so traumatised by her first child's FTT (which ended with bub in hospital at 3 wks) that she absolutely refused to even try to bf her second. Not even once, as far as I know. I thought that was such a sad outcome, she was utterly convinced that her breasts were useless......







I didn't really agree with her decision, but i think it was her way of making peace with the situation....


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## TurboClaudia

welcome, new mamas. wish we didn't ever have to welcome another woman to this crowd, though...









sounds like you are both well informed and educated about your many options, and i can (and i'm sure many other mamas here can) totally relate to your feelings of frustration and wanting to give up on various days and at various times. i still get them now, and our son is almost 14 months old and primarily eating solid food and drinking water and only nursing 2-3 times a day. he's also had a chew-y nursing spell the past weeek or two -- i really hope it's a spell, 'cause I don't know how much more my poor nipples can take of teeth marks after every already shortened nursing session.

i'm so thankful that we are still nursing, even if it is just for a few minutes a few times a day. i know it was so hard for me to remember this through all the breastfeeding challenges and supply issues, but please, mamas, try and cherish those moments when you are just sitting there with your sweet babe at your breast. because pretty soon, they are practicing walking and sometimes just can't be bothered to be interrupted to even eat, let alone nurse.

much love and peace to all of you, and sending you wishes that you find the path and the solutions that make breastfeeding work for you and your family...

warmly,
claudia
mama to 14 month old marek, who is practicing his walking but still prefers to crawl because it's faster


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## MarcyC

No...you didn't offend me at all. I kinda laugh, because a lot of people (who do use sleep training) get all excited when I say Megan sleeps so long - they say, "did you use babywise." They seem excited like maybe I'll say yes and we'll bond, yk? Then when I say no, they seem let down. No...I didn't need to let my baby cry or "train" her (sounds like you're training a dog). Okay...I'm not trying to sound all superior. Lord knows I make mistakes (several...daily), but I've been blessed in the sleep department.

Now...I have some questions:

The past few days my supply has been low and Megan is taking MORE from the SNS. It's a little discouraging, but I'm pretty sure (even though AF hasn't returned) that I'm cycling right now...make sense? Will my supply return to normal (ha ha...normal for me is still low, but you know what i mean) next week?

Also...any tips from anyone - help me - for SNS'ing in public? Right now I wear the bottle up high around my neck and tuck the tubes down my shirt (make sense). I'd like to get a lact-aid because I've heard they are easier to use in public, but $$$$$$$$. Maybe I'll check ebay.


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## JenInMpls

If it were a few months earlier I would have sold you my Lact-Aid as it didn't work for me as well as the SNS. I ended up selling it on eBay for a decent price, so I don't know if you'll find a bargain... sorry. But each person is different and I know that a lot of people like the Lact-Aid way better. Yes they are expensive and the real key to the Lact-Aid is owning about 8 of them so you can prep them all at night when baby's sleeping and then have them ready for the coming day. We are just not that organized! Plus we had problems with our formula making its way down the tubes. I think the Lact-Aid is easier to use in public if you get their (or make your own) little cotton bag for it that clips onto your bra, that way you can reach up your shirt and you don't have anything hanging around your neck. I find their neck cord waaaaaay more difficult than the SNS cord.

As for SNIPing







I just adjust the bottle a little lower around my neck and bunch my shirt around it. I rarely wear button-up-the-front shirts, I could see how that might be less discreet but it would be too for non-supplemented breastfeeding... Usually I have found (and I am definitely not a veteran SNIPer, I'm still awfully chicken about it but am getting better, probably just in time for T to wean from it!







) that the only people who give a breastfeeding mother - supplementing or not - more than a passing glance are other people who support breastfeeding, or children. Hopefully the ones who support breastfeeding read the article about nursing after reduction in Mothering and will recognize an SNS







I find the most indiscreet part about it is getting it over the head and down the shirt and I have definitely been watched doing that before - but I've only gotten curious questions and then support afterwards...

Good luck and may I say I'm green with envy at your sleep situation?









j


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## MarcyC

Okay, here we are struggling for every drop of breastmilk we can possibly get. I've even had some very pro PRO bf'ing people tell me they wouldn't blame me if I gave up....

But then I hear moms say things like, "oh he/she was doing fine on breastmilk, I just decided I wanted to wean at 6 months (or whenever)." Or moms who don't even try..."I just didn't want to." Or moms who set a time limit like, "I only breastfeed my kids for 3 months."

I don't know...I just want to cry sometimes, kwim? I guess sometimes I feel so inadequate but other times I just get mad or I want to say, "why in the heck did you stop at 3 months?" Or what I wouldn't give to be able to exclusively nurse for that time. I don't know...I just had to vent.


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## TurboClaudia

MarcyC: sending you tons of hugs







it irks me, too. i even get jealous when i see mamas nursing their 3 and 4 year olds knowing that there is the possibility that our little guy might decide to stop nursing tomorrow because he's just done having to work so hard to get that tiny bit of milk...

hugs, hugs and more hugs...









with love,
claudia


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## Victorian

s. I don't know if you have ever read any of the words of the Buddha, but he talks of not judging another person because there is no way for you to understand his suffering. (not that I think that you are judging them). I remind myself of this when I am confronted with these people, I don't know what is up with them, and they don't know how much we have suffered to breastfeed. But it does hurt so hard when they say things that minimize the importance of breastfeeding or say that it is only the colstrum that is important.

Just my little tangent on how I comfort myself....apply as needed









V.


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## Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
MarcyC: sending you tons of hugs







it irks me, too. i even get jealous when i see mamas nursing their 3 and 4 year olds knowing that there is the possibility that our little guy might decide to stop nursing tomorrow because he's just done having to work so hard to get that tiny bit of milk...

hugs, hugs and more hugs...









with love,
claudia

the sad situation in our house right now claudia...at night Niko will nurse for a while....drink soy milk from a bottle for a while...nurse for a while....bottle....I think that most of the milk must be gone


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## rainbowfairymomma

Sorry mommas I've been busy lately&#8230; anyway to fill you in more:
Victorian :
I have tried pumping while nursing not a lot of luck&#8230; but hey anything is better then nothing right?!
I have a crappy pump because I can't afford to rent one and my local WIC office won't give me one since I'm not at school or work! GRRRRRRRRRR
I haven't seen an IBCLC because again I can't afford it (very tight budget!!) CONGRATS for nursing so long&#8230; some days I feel like I can't do this anymore&#8230; and others I feel like we will go on forever J

JenInMpls:
Thank you for your kind words. I've started researching hypo plastic breasts and am wondering if this is my problem&#8230; not sure though but it would make sense as far as the don't grow during pregnancy or get engorged. Also not sure how many milk ducts I actually have, is there a way to know this?!

aussiemum:
Thank you for your help, his weight is good now that we are supplementing&#8230;I started with small drops of Brest milk (from a friend) from a dropper when he was like 3 days old waiting for my milk to come in&#8230; little did I know that my milk had come in. he kept screaming and was hungry L at 3 weeks he was still ½ pound below birth weight and wasn't a happy babe so we started supplementing, now I feel like its out of hand. I know he gets more formula then breast milk, about 20oz per day! L


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## aussiemum

Hey Amanda, glad to hear you're still hanging in there.....









I know what you mean about not being able to afford an LC. In England, with my first child, one lady was willing to see me once for free after my midwife asked her to come around, but that was it. And I couldn't afford anything else. But what can these ladies do, they have to feed their families too....... It makes me think how even breastfeeding, which should be a right, is turned into a priviledge....... which makes me think that qualified LC's (& stacks of them, to boot) should be on the gov't payroll, because really, the need is great & the benefits are many......

Anywho, stepping off the utopian soapbox now......

Since you can't afford an ibclc, guess we'll just have to try & nut out the problem here in cyberland.









I'm so glad to hear that your bub's weight is no longer a worry- it is so good to not have to worry about failure to thrive anymore. Now that his weight is about normal, I reckon it's time to have a look at how much formula he receives in supps. 20 ozs at 2 1/2 months is a fair bit of supplementation, whether breastmilk or formula milk.......... Gradually, you want to try & drop this supplementation, so I'd try & get bub to the breast as much as possible. I'm sorry, I know this is often such a difficult job with a young, hungry baby, but really I think this is your most important task at this point. How often does he nurse currently, & for how long? Is his latch okay; are you getting any blisters or sore spots on either breast? It may be that your crappy pump is ineffective in drawing milk out of the breast, & given that, imo, your best bet (without funds) is to try & get bub sucking as much as possible. Now that he's up to weight, maybe try not offering him a supp bottle after an early day feed, & then offering him the breast again in half an hour, or an hour. Just brainstorming aloud here, you may already being trying this...

Hope that helps a little bit!


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## MarcyC

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I have an idea...any way this tribe could get it's own board as a sub-category of breastfeeding. I know there is already a breastfeeding advocacy and support board, but I just think of all the low-supply mommies out there who need support. Imagine how many less of them would give up if they had a place to go.


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## Victorian

I don't think that they would move us. They are pretty weary of placing new subforums. Also, the breastfeeding area is more specific while this is a *tribe* meaning we can discuss things other than the subject at hand. You might PM Cynthia Mosher or go and post a thread in Q&S though and ask....I know that in the past they had declined offering a support area of bottlefeeding mothers because it would violate the WHO code, this might fall into that catagory. But like I said, can't hurt to ask.

Victorian


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## aussiemum

Also, since we are in the FYT forum, I think we get a lot less flaming from other members. In the past, when the low-suppliers looked for support in the BF forum, flames were a lot more frequent, imo.

It's a shame we're not allowed to offer formal support for bottle feeding mamas..... A lot of other websites that do offer some support for bottlefeeding just don't meet GD/AP standards, for me anyway. Who wants to wade thru a gazillion threads & articles on CIO, ferber, etc. etc. just to get a little love & support because you have to give your kid a bottle?? Yucky. No thanks.

So, here we are, our little tribe...... I'm guessing that we're only allowed to even be here at the pleasure of the mods/directors, so this is one area where I try not to stir too much sh!t. Had no idea I was violating the WHO code, either. Add it to my list of transgressions, I 'spose.....


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## mamato2boys

After so much struggling with BF my kids due to hypoplasia we finally have something to celebrate. My third babe Casper will be two on Monday and is still an avid (some say obsessive







) breastfeeder!! My first son only BF until 3 months and my second only 6 months; they both refused to latch on after we switched from SNS to bottle. I'm so happy that I finally make enough milk for one of my kids to stay interested enough to stick with it. He still loves to BF and it never bothered him that my supply was low, (although we did have to suppliment when he was an infant) and he does now let me know when I am empty :LOL . He's helped me to heal from the pain I felt after failing to BF my first two sons and failing to EBF him.

I know you are all working so hard to keep your little ones on your breast; stick with it, all the work is definetly worth it


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## Curious

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
qualified LC's (& stacks of them, to boot) should be on the gov't payroll, because really, the need is great & the benefits are many......


Our county health department has an attentive LC on staff who makes home visits!!! Check with yours.


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## anabean

hi mamas,

i'm an old subscriber to the thread. and luckily we are over our times of worrying about supply.

dd is almost 22 mos and still nursing lots and lots-- sometimes too much!
but oh how i love it.









yes, we also had a difficult road to our nursing relationship, but with a LOT of perseverance, we came through it. i wanted to just give you my support and tell you that i know what you're going through.

anyway, i wanted to offer, if anyone is interested... i have some dom left over, i'm not taking it anymore. and it'll be a couple of years, if not longer, till i have another baby. so if anyone is interested, e-mail me at anamonkey3 at earthlink.net.

keep up the good work!!
<3


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## Quirky

I'm in the middle of reading Mother Food by Hilary Jacobsen, which is a comprehensive look at lactogenic (i.e. milk-promoting) and anti-lactogenic foods. Another good book I've recently acquired is The Nursing Mother's Herbal by Sheila Humphrey. I recommend both to anyone who has supply issues.


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## Victorian

Hi Quirky! Is the book well researched? I took a class on Breastfeeding and Natural Remedies and had such a had time finding info that was scientifically research enough for my professor...

V.


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## Quirky

Which one? Of the two of them, I think the herbal one is better researched and is more 'professional' so to speak. The problem is, no one is doing this research, so both books are trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff of hundreds if not thousands of years of anecdotal evidence and folk wisdom.

But who makes money off breastfeeding? Hardly anyone, so there's no incentive for researchers to study foods and herbs that promote a better milk supply.

My take on the Mother Food book is, if you have a serious supply issue, it's worth trying to consume more lactogenic foods and avoid anti-lactogenic foods. Nothing in there is so crucial to your diet or harmful if you consume it, so you haven't lost anything, but it's worth a try.

FYI, the author is the moderator of the MOBI group and has bfed 4 kids, and has struggled with supply issues, and found that she was sensitive to foods like apples, bananas, and avocados that don't affect most mothers, but her supply reacted to them, so she cut them out of her diet while bfing. Those are foods I never would have thought to avoid, so I was interested to find out that for super-sensitive women, they may affect supply.

On the herbal front, I don't think there's so much "new news" about herbs and supply in the herb book that hasn't been covered elsewhere, but it's worthwhile reading esp. if you are into herbal treatments/alternative medicines because it gathers the best available information on the subject.

JMO!


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## MarcyC

I'm so tired of oatmeal for breakfast EVERY morning. I wonder if a cereal or bread made w/ oats would be just as good for supply. I'm going to have to buy that motherfood book. Quirky--let me know if you'd be willing to sell your copy & for how much.


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## MarcyC

For anyone who has used a lact-aid, I've been checking their web site deciding whether or not to order one. I have a question about the assembly - do you just wear one bag and have both tubes extending from one bag, or do you wear two bags?


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## JenInMpls

You wear one bag, and the assembly has 1 tube. If you switch sides, you just switch the tube. There is no air exchange, the bag just flattens as the supplement leaves it. Kind of nice to not have the little purr of the bubbles...

The nice thing is that they offer 8-oz bags, that sometimes frustrates me about the SNS - sometimes T wants more than just 6 oz at a time.

I did not stick with the lact-aid because I only had 2 assemblies and I found them a major pain to fill, plus the formula we used tended to clog the tubes. We've since switched, and I know others have used the lact-aid with this formula (Baby's Only) with success, but I guess I'm too set in my ways









check eBay, sometimes you can find them there cheaper. Wish I hadn't sold mine, I'd pass it along to you!

j

ps: I hear you on the oatmeal thing... but just think how happy your colon is, too


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## TurboClaudia

i was using the lact-aid as a supplementer, so our son would nurse on the first side with no supplement, then i would switch him to the second side with the tube taped to my breast and wear one bag. i was concerned about using the 4 oz bags because he could down 6 oz at a time from a bottle even after nursing, but 4 oz seemed to be enough.

since the babe is also getting breastmilk in most cases, the 4 oz bags seem to be enough.

let me know if you have more questions...

~c


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## Victorian

you can take the oatmeal in any form, including cookies! bread! scones! uncooked in yogurt with fruit! cake!

V.


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## amydidit

Hi everyone! Can I join in here? This is the problem i'm having right now and, I believe, with my first as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
One mum I know of was so traumatised by her first child's FTT (which ended with bub in hospital at 3 wks) that she absolutely refused to even try to bf her second. Not even once, as far as I know. I thought that was such a sad outcome, she was utterly convinced that her breasts were useless......







I didn't really agree with her decision, but i think it was her way of making peace with the situation....

This was almost me. I tried BFing DD#1 but she kept losing weight, seriously... she was only 5lbs 10oz when she was born, but by 3 weeks old she weighed only 4 1/2 lbs. The first ped I took DD#1 too told me I had to stop BFing her... I didn't like her attitude so I took DD and left. I TOLD the ped I was going to go to a different doctor. I took DD to a different ped and she said that DD had to go to the hospital because of FTT. I took her to TX Children's and DD was immediately admitted. The first day there they *let me* BF her. She kept losing weight. They *tested* my breastmilk and told me I *wasn't producing enough calories* and immediately put her on formula. STILL DD lost weight. It wasn't until they put her on zantac for reflux that she started gaining weight. Even though it appeared the problem wasn't the BM (since she lost on formula as well) they still told me I would kill DD if I continued to BF her. It didn't help that while in the hospital I received a lovely visit from a CPS officer... apparently the first ped called CPS because I walked out! That was a fabulous time, oh yeah... I was called a child abuser BY the officer and told that if DD didn't start gaining weight she would be taken from me.

Needless to say, my first BFing experience wasn't exactly positive.

This time when I got pregnant I was convinced I couldn't BF. I was terrified I would endanger this baby. Thankfully I found MDC and started asking questions about my experience. I'd always been under the assumption that my BM was deficient in calories because of how they worded it. Now I'm thinking I had a low supply, probably due to bad latch because she was so small (not preemie though). After researching more I decided I HAD to BF DD#2. So I did. She was exclusively BF for 6 weeks. For the first 4 weeks she was gaining, but not much. Then she stopped gaining completely. Her ped suggested supplementing with formula, but was willing to presribe zantac in case it was reflux. She didn't gain weight after being on zantac (though she has now stopped spitting up as much). At 6 weeks I saw a LC. Found that DD#2 had a bad latch and my supply was VERY low because of it. I never knew there was a problem with the latch because my nipples NEVER hurt at all. Not even when I first started BFing, no pain whatsoever. So we started supplementing her after every feeding while I started working on increasing my supply. I had already been taking herbs, which is the only thing the LC thinks kept me with any supply at all. I continued taking the herbs and also ordered domperidone. I also am using a hospital grade pump after every feeding. It's been about a month and I'm noticing a little increase, but not enough. We're still having to supplement after every feeding. She's gaining weight though and I'm trying to be happy about the fact that she is getting about 50% BM now. Better than before and much better than I gave DD#1.

I know it's going to be a long road, but I'm glad this went better than my first try. If it hadn't been for the mamas here at MDC I never would've even tried to BF this time.


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## TurboClaudia

hugs to you, amy, and major kudos for giving both of your daughters as much mama's milk as you can. every drop counts.

go easy on yourself when you think about all the breastfeeding, pumping, taking care of BOTH of your daughters and taking herbs, etc to increase your supply. i remember getting so stressed out about the prospect of it going on forever, but i just had to remind myself that was how i was feeling today and tomorrow i might feel differently.

peace and milky vibes to you...

warmly,
claudia


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## MarcyC

I got my lact-aid plus tons of extra supplies - 4 rolls of 7 oz. bags, longer tubes for the 7 oz. bags, and extra bag clamping rings.

Ack! I don't like it as much as the SNS. I'm probably going to put it on ebay, but if you know of a low-supply or adoptive MDC-member who would like it, let me know. I'd like to get some money for it, but I don't expect to get what I paid for it.

I'd even be willing to trade for an SNS (or two) with extra tubing. I know now that I like the SNS way better!!!

One plus is that the lact-aid is more discreet, but I'm hoping to get another full-sized SNS AND another starter SNS - when out in public, I can used two starter SNS, one on each side, which maybe more discreet since they are smaller and you can clip them to your bra strap.


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## Vixxen

Hi Mamas=)

Well, I'm pregnant again (almost 20 weeks! yayy) and trying to prepare my body for hopefully having a better milk supply this time around. I talked to an herbalist from Herblore.com after seeing her ad here on MDC. She recommended that I drink their pregnancy tea which has red raspberry leaf, dandelion leaf, nettle leaf, alfalfa, chamomile, oatstraw and peppermint. She also said that I could take the goats rue tincture while pregnant too. So I've been doing that, not as faithfully as I should but I'm trying to get better at that. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything else that I could/should be doing to help increase breast tissue as well as my milk supply after this baby is born. I had a bit of colostrum come out about 3 weeks ago but nothing since. That was a huge suprise b/c I didn't have any colostrum with my dd until I was at least 36-37 weeks pregnant. My breasts haven't grown that I've noticed this pregnancy. Still in the same bras. Also my nipples haven't gotten darker like so many women report when they are pregnant. I am really hoping that I will have a better supply this time around. I would love to think that I will have a full supply but I'm afraid to hope for that and then be really dissappointed.


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## TurboClaudia

congrats on your pregnancy, vixxen! sending you breast-growing, milky vibes... have you heard of a book by hilary jacobson about diet and how it can affect milk supply? i'll find out the title and post it here...

marcy: what is it that you don't like about the lact-aid? is it the cleaning? the visual appearance? something else? bummed that you spent that money on something that you are not going to use... ebay would probably get you some return on your money...

warmly,
claudia


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## MarcyC

Vixxen - The name of the book Claudia was referring to is called "Mother Food". You can buy it on Amazon. I bought it "used" on Amazon and only saved a few cents. It's worth it. Also, eat tons of oatmeal. Oatmeal for breakfast, oatmeal cookies for snacks, etc. Talk to your ob/gyn about a drug called Metformin. It increases glandular tissue.

Claudia - all those little parts! Plus it's not as easy to see how much she's actually getting. The SNS has ounce markings.


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## Vixxen

I actually have that book, have just read bits and pieces of it. Guess I need to read the whole thing. I had heard about the Metformin and spoke to my OB about it and he said that he wouldn't recommend it while pregnant that it had to many side effects. I'm not sure what those side effects would be. Does anyone know of any studies done on pregnant women while on Metformin? I would definitely be interested to find out more about it.


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## JenInMpls

vixxen - there is a study posted on 007 breasts - a fanastic pro-breastfeeding page - about a woman who took progesterone supplements during her pregnancy and was able to fully breastfeed her 2nd born child (5th pregnancy) after being diagnosed with insufficient glandular tissue with her first. Here is a direct link to the very short blurb about the study.

Marcy - I hear you about all the parts, the worst part for me was trying to clean them all, reassemble them and prep the bags ahead of time. It might work better for me now that he's only nursing a few times a day (plus overnight). I second the eBay suggestion, I got a fair return on my investment there.

j


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## MarcyC

Vixxen - from what I've read, taking Metformin during pregnancy is supposed to help with breastfeeding and is safe. Have you checked kellymom.com? They have list of drugs that are safe of breastfeeding and I think they might even have a pregnancy list as well...I can't remember off hand. Do you belong to the yahoo group MOBI? They are a great resource as well.


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## EStreetMama

subscribing...

Having horrible supply issues with 3 week old. Looking forward to reading all your past posts and suggestions.

--Adrienne


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## anabean

i still have tons of extra dom available. make me offers!


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## EStreetMama

I want it!! Reglan is not helping, and Kaiser doesn't even keep any in their pharmacy.

I don't know about pricing or dosing yet, and baby is stirring right now.

Would you please PM me with more info??

You could also email at [email protected]

Thanks!!!


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## anabean

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adrienne*
I want it!! Reglan is not helping, and Kaiser doesn't even keep any in their pharmacy.

I don't know about pricing or dosing yet, and baby is stirring right now.

Would you please PM me with more info??

You could also email at [email protected]

Thanks!!!

i sent you an e-mail.


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## anabean

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anabean*
i still have tons of extra dom available. make me offers!










offer still stands.








and more info.
i have 6 100-pill boxes. they come in blister packages of 25 pills each.
the expiration date is may 2008.


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## Mizelenius

Just want to add some huge







s to the group.

I won't share my whole story since it's not entirely relevant, but I did have a taste of what it would be like to have a low-supply (caused by ineffective milk transfer). . .the formula, the bottles, the non-stop pumping, the herbs, the Lact-Aid . . .WOW. I was always on the edge of a nervous breakdown. Low-supply mamas are THE most dedicated breastfeeders ever.

This doesn't get discussed enough!


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## deymm

You are so sweet!

We do just trudge along and try our darndest to give our DCs as much of mommy's milk as possible!

Your support means the world to us!


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## Shell_Ell

Just joining in here. I'm Michelle, DS is Riley, he'll be two weeks tomorrow. We're struggling with low supply. I wish I had time to completely explain- I'll have to sub and come back when I have more time. We are talking about trying domperidone next week, and I'd like to hear from other moms who have had success with it. It's so expensive- I want to know that it's worth it.


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## MrsMoe

I'll join. I had a bilateral breast reduction at 19. My first attempt to breastfeed my daughter 7 years ago was not successful because I had no support, no knowledge, and when I had to suppliment, I did it with generic bottles (heavy flow.) in no time flat, she refused the breast all together.

With my next baby due in little over a month, I am armed and ready! Plus, since it has been so long since the surgery, my nipples are no longer numb (nerve damage has been reveresed,) and I am producing colostrum prior to pregnancy, which means my breasts may have recanalized, which means I will likely produce a lot more milk this time around.


----------



## TurboClaudia

welcome, shell and mrsmoe! please let us know if you have any questions we can help with.

shell, we tried dom and it did not seem to have a significant effect for me. i took it for almost two months, the last couple of weeks increasing the dosage to 120 mg in a 24 hour period. we still supplemented with donor breastmilk and enhanced goat's milk (EFAs, iron, folic acid added) as well as my own small amount of pumped milk. wish i had better info to give you. have you read dr. jack newman's info about dom?

also, have either of you looked into the yahoogroup called mobi (mothers overcoming breastfeeding issues)? they are a wealth of knowledge and very open and non-judgmental.

sending you milky vibes...

~claudia


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## Sarsparilla

I also tried many of the herbs/foods that are supposed to increase milk supply. Taking whole fennel and fenugreek seeds did help a lot, but the Chinese herbs were amazing. I noticed an increase in my supply a day after taking them. I also had acupuncture done in conjunction, so it was probably both of those things together.
Even when milk started coming in pretty well a few weeks ago, I still had (and still have) problems pumping, because my let-down response is not very strong. I have found it best to pump at about 4 or 5 in the morning when he wakes up. I pump on my "best" side to get the most milk and then let him nurse on the other side. I have read that pumping before feeding on one side is good, as you will make more milk for the baby, but not for the pump.
At night, I have found a better let down response if I drink one or two dark beers and then sit in a warm bath, or have dh massage my breasts for me. Eating some peanuts with the beer seems to improve the LDR also (weird). I'm sure a lot of this is about relaxing.


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## MrsMoe

request...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=350142

Above is a link for a request for a letter writing campaign that I posted here on MDC. I have the "inside track" that publishing date keeps getting the slip and the book would be released sooner (in turn helping more mothers) if a few people were to write to the woman/publisher in charge of the final bits of the book at the and request she speed things up.

The book is written specifically for women with low supply.

Making More Milk: A Nursing Mother's Guide to Milk Supply
by Diana West , BA IBCLC, and Lisa Marasco, MA IBCLC

This book is going to be published by the LLL.







It is geared twords women who have medical issues for a low milk supply. Currently, there is no release date (but originally there was - the original date was set for this Fall,) so I and a few other women wanted to get together a campaign to get the publisher moving!

It makes me sad the original date of this Fall seems pushed off - because I and a few others mothers I know have babies due this Fall/Winter and were really excited about an entire book dedicated to low supply issues.

If you want a background on the author...

Diana West is also the author of the only book out there (that I know of) for women who have had breast reductions. The book is a WONDERFUL source of information, so I know this next book is going to be awesome. You would be FLOORED at how little medical professionals - including Lactation Consultants - know about breast reductions. The general attitude is either you can BF or not BF - which is so wrong. All BFAR women can BF - the question is - how much to suppliment - because nearly all of us have to suppliment.

http://bfar.org/ <--- more info on this book and the previous one

Ok, I will stop rambling now. :LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
have you read dr. jack newman's info about dom?

also, have either of you looked into the yahoogroup called mobi (mothers overcoming breastfeeding issues)? they are a wealth of knowledge and very open and non-judgmental.

sending you milky vibes...

~claudia


I have actually read Jack Newman's book. He is in Toronto, and I am tempted to see if I can make an appointment with him after the baby is born - if I need it.

Will check into the group- thanks a lot.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarsparilla*
I also tried many of the herbs/foods that are supposed to increase milk supply. Taking whole fennel and fenugreek seeds did help a lot, but the Chinese herbs were amazing. I noticed an increase in my supply a day after taking them. I also had acupuncture done in conjunction, so it was probably both of those things together.
Even when milk started coming in pretty well a few weeks ago, I still had (and still have) problems pumping, because my let-down response is not very strong. I have found it best to pump at about 4 or 5 in the morning when he wakes up. I pump on my "best" side to get the most milk and then let him nurse on the other side. I have read that pumping before feeding on one side is good, as you will make more milk for the baby, but not for the pump.
At night, I have found a better let down response if I drink one or two dark beers and then sit in a warm bath, or have dh massage my breasts for me. Eating some peanuts with the beer seems to improve the LDR also (weird). I'm sure a lot of this is about relaxing.


What Chinese Herbs worked for you?? Would love to know!

Beer however lowers milk supply - as does any form of alcohol.


----------



## Victorian

yes, but if it is the let-down reflect, beer can help to relax mama









Anyway, I also had great success with Chinese Herbs. I had some actual plants that I made the worlds worse, most discusting tea with. Then I struggled to drink about 399 gallons of it a day :LOL but after a few days, I had MASTITIS!!! And more milk than I had before for sure. AND Domperidone did nothing for me.

I have looked at the BFAR website in the past...very informative.

V.


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## MrsMoe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
yes, but if it is the let-down reflect, beer can help to relax mama









Anyway, I also had great success with Chinese Herbs. I had some actual plants that I made the worlds worse, most discusting tea with. Then I struggled to drink about 399 gallons of it a day :LOL but after a few days, I had MASTITIS!!! And more milk than I had before for sure. AND Domperidone did nothing for me.

I have looked at the BFAR website in the past...very informative.

V.

What Chinese herbs? Want to have everything on hand when our baby is born the first of next month.

As far as the BFAR site - the forum is a goldmine of info.

And Domperidone makes me nervous. First off, I don't like Rx drugs, esp when BFing. Second - the FDA warns agaisnt BFing mothers from using Domperidone, because it's not even supposed to be used for lactation - it's a side effect of the drug itself. Third, I have some little heart things (MVP and valve regurgitation issues and other stuff) and Domperidone (DMD) has been known to cause cardiac arrest, death, and other issues when given via IV. No way am I pumping that stuff into my baby's body, because it is passed along in breastmilk.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWER.../ANS01292.html


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## Victorian

I highly suggest that you read the professional reduttals to that ruling. It was highly political and not really based on the science. Also read up on how the FDA approves drugs...it really is interesting about drugs from foreign countries. (to the President even Canada is full of dangerous drugs).

http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/O...atements.shtml

Like every drug, it is not for everyone, but I do think that the weight of the evidence is toward it being a useful tool for lactating women.

Also, re: chinese herbs - it is not like western medicine where you take the same things as Joe A and B. It is a customized blend of herbs for you. If you are interested in this form of medicine, I highy recommend that you look for a practioner in your area. If I were to become pregnant today I would start there.

Victorian


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## TurboClaudia

ditto what victorian said. domperidone dosage for increasing lactation is usually 20mg/ 4x day orally. the studies that were done addressed iv usage, which is inappropriate and irrelevant for breastfeeding moms. the fda research is also heavily biased because dom is locally compounded and it becomes an economic issue because pharmaceutical companies can't cash in on the dollar for getting it prescribed. off-label use for drugs is common in the u.s., albeit sometimes dangerous, like cytotec aka misoprostol now and diethylstilbestrol aka DES given in the 70s for bad morning sickness. in addition, i believe the active ingredient molecules in dom are too large to pass into breastmilk in significant amounts. to try it or not is of course an entirely personal issue, and with your heart issues, another course of action might be preferred.

i, too, am not fond of prescription meds, but was willing to try to see if it improved my supply situation. it did not do much.

i also saw a chinese medicine practitioner who prescribed herbs for me. they helped a small amount, and the acupuncture was interesting. i think what helped the most was that i went in the evening while my partner took care of our son, so it was nice quiet, meditative time for me. i didn't start seeing a chinese medicine practitioner until our son was 7 or 8 months old, though.

~claudia


----------



## MrsMoe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*

Also, re: chinese herbs - it is not like western medicine where you take the same things as Joe A and B. It is a customized blend of herbs for you. If you are interested in this form of medicine, I highy recommend that you look for a practioner in your area. If I were to become pregnant today I would start there.

Victorian


Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*

i also saw a chinese medicine practitioner who prescribed herbs for me. they helped a small amount, and the acupuncture was interesting. i think what helped the most was that i went in the evening while my partner took care of our son, so it was nice quiet, meditative time for me. i didn't start seeing a chinese medicine practitioner until our son was 7 or 8 months old, though.

~claudia


Thanks - I am due in a month - will look into practioners in my area.


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## MarcyC

I was reading some stuff by Dr. Jack Newman on how if a breastfed baby isn't gaining weight properly it may be better to introduce solids early (like 3-4 months, not super-early) and wean from the formula supplements. Anyone else see this info and what do you think?


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## JenInMpls

I have seen that info, I believe off of kellymom.com, and when I presented it to my very pro-bf doctor, she (very gently, as she knows how broken I was about not being able to breastfeed T my own milk) said that, inasmuch as the formula is an ever-present painful reminder of my breasts' inability to make enough milk for Tristan, it is a more developmentally appropriate way of getting nutrients and calories into a 4-month-old than spoon feeding solid foods. She also pointed out the increased risk of food allergies when you start a food too early, because the gut is inable to digest it.

I frankly am more willing to trust my dr than Dr Newman because my doc has been there and been supportive of me from the beginning - was even willing to prescribe Domperidone to me (didn't help much) - and Dr Newman blew me off when I asked a question about hypoplasia. I do have a friend who started her 4-month-old on solids and she's fine and dandy and healthy. I guess you do what feels best for you and what suits your baby.

I guess my post came around full-circle to a big shrug :LOL

good luck, J


----------



## TurboClaudia

i, too, have read that info from jack newman. perhaps it is appropriate for some babies who take great interest in solid foods at that age, but our son did not, and i did not believe that he would have gotten sufficient appropriate nutrients from the solid food he was ingesting. i think i mentioned before that our son began eating solid foods in great earnest (i mean, literally huge portions of oatmeal for breakfast and whole avocados for lunch and a whole pear for dinner, plus other stuff) at around age 9 months, and he became less interested in nursing and the bottle. one day, i just accidentally forgot to give him any supplemental milks in a bottle and i hadn't used the lact-aid either, and he appeared to be happy and satisfied, so i was like, hmm... the next day, i watched for signs that he was wanting more liquid sustenance and he didn't give me any. same the next day and the next. and that was the end of supplements for him. he was still nursing about 4-6 times a day and a few times during the night. then about a month later, his nursing during the night turned into chewy-nursing which hurt me, so we started soothing him other ways and ended up nightweaning him accidentally over the course of about a month. interestingly, he started sleeping better during that period of time, too, and now consistently sleeps 10-12 hours a night and nurses about 1-3 times a day at age 16 months.

it is so hard to imagine what i was feeling a year ago at this time when we learned of his low weight gain and my milk supply issues. all i know is it gives me a knot in my throat and tightness in my stomach and chest and eyes and i start to cry...

how are things going for you, marcy? and how about everyone else? we haven't had an update and here's where we're at note from folks in a while...

~claudia


----------



## MarcyC

Hi Claudia! Thanks for asking about me! We're doing good. I can't believe that she'll be 6 months old tomorrow. And talk about rolls upon rolls...what a chunky monkey! We're still using the SNS. I emailed Dr. Newman and he seems to think she's a good candidate for supplementing with solids. Surprisingly, her pediatrician agrees at this point. Some days she shows so much excitement over solids and other days she could take them or leave them, kwim?

I just want her to be healthy and I think instinctively babies know what they need so I'm going to take her cues day by day. Selfishly, I'd love to get rid of the SNS and go strictly to nursing+solids.

Let's see...what else.....oh, she doesn't want to NIP anymore. Too much to see, I guess. Is that normal for this age? She won't even let me NAK or watch t.v. ....geesh!

What are the chances this tribe could get it's own board? Other parenting message boards sites have bottle feeding & breast feeding boards. I don't feel like I 100% belong at either. I found another parenting site that has an "unable to breastfeed" board, but I technically don't belong there. The low-supply moms need to speak out - especially the long-term SNS users. I think we should be recognized for what we do for our babies.

Well...time for school (homeschool).


----------



## JenInMpls

I will tell you, Marcy, that I have been having very spotty luck on using the SNS less. There are just times when he wants to have a full tummy before taking a nap, and times where he wants both food and comfort. he likes having formula in a cup when he's in his chair to eat or when my dp offers it to him, otherwise it's the *$*(@(!*#*!!!!! SNS he wants. He has been taking SO much formula when he nurses lately, though, 8-10 oz per feeding. I have to have 2 full SNSes at the ready. I wish I could get him to take at least half of it by cup, but when it's me, he pushes it away and wants the breast. The IBCLC I talked to was of little help







so if you figure out something that works well, let me know. I tried fourfriends.org but only one person had a reply and what she suggested hasn't worked well for me yet.

Do any of you read the weekly mothering.com updates? Last week's featured a story that got me very excited - what? this article sounds like my story! I was reading, and reading, yes, pumping, yes, hungry baby, yes, yes! FINALLY, how good to see this in print - and then I got to "I put 2 oz of breast milk in a bottle and fed it to him" - oh well, maybe not. When it went on to extol the virtues of breastmilk (which I completely agree with) and put down formula as evil nastiness (which I can't agree with because without it, Tristan would not be alive), I stopped reading. How nice to pump several ounces at a time! I can only imagine. When I pumped nearly 1 oz out of a breast after T stopped nursing when he had hand, foot and mouth disease and his throat hurt so bad he couldn't suck or swallow, I was ecstatic at the quantity.

I wish some mothering writer would stop by here and see all of the agonizing work we put into the commitment to nurse our babies and write a nice article about US, to maybe balance out the article about the woman who made so much milk that she could nurse twins on one breast.

OK, I'm done now. Happy to be nursing my TODDLER!!!!!!

xo, Jen.

ps: Marcy - a friend of mine said that I should start an awards program for mothers who nurse with supplementers and I should give myself the first certificate of merit







maybe when I have more time on my hands (when will that ever be? 18 years from now?) I will think about such a thing...


----------



## Victorian

hmm..it would seem that if you can get that much milk from pumping that the problem is with getting it into the baby, not with the production.

Jen - you just signed yourself up to write the article









I started one called "Nursing Niko" but I didn't get too far









V.


----------



## aussiemum

I agree Jen, I too, found that article painful to read, altho I did finish it, & read it twice just to try & understand the tone of it. I did appreciate her sentiments about how she felt when had to change her whole way of looking at herself as a mother because she was unable to bf her child- that bit really did hit home. And the part about how we as expectant mothers are never told about the possibility of low-supply or other bfing issues- honestly, I just had no idea that such a thing could ever happen to me before it did. Education could go a long way towards alleviating some of the pain the low-supply/ffing mums go thru, & I would really, really, really love to see this topic discussed in Mothering mag.

A few months back I caught up with another homebirth mum who just had her second baby, & we got to talking about baby stuff, as you do. Somehow we got onto the topic of breastfeeding (imagine that







) & somehow I ended up briefly relating a few of the difficulties that I had with my two kids.... low-supply, ftt, no milk when I pumped. Nothing in great depth, because I don't like to tell horror stories to new mums either, but the worst thing was that she didn't believe me when I told her my kids did not gain weight no matter how long I had them at the breast. She said she'd never heard of such a thing, & the conversation was finished. So sad.

But as much as I would love to see a Mothering article, I don't believe it would ever be published. Mothering is clearly in the pro-breastfeeding &/or breastmilk is the best & only way & everyone can do it if they just try hard enough camp. If they changed that stance even slightly, they would lose half their readership, imo. The editors' potential agony of having to read thousands of outraged emails & letters should they ever take a different approach, not to mention loss of revenue, must exert a strong force for no change. It's my understanding that the reason why MM does take such a purist attitude is because new mothers have to put up with so much anti-breastfeeding crapola in US society, & so the magazine provides a space where mothers don't have to put up with looking at bottles or even have to think about formula milk. Lucky duckies.

Unfortunately, that leaves our little minority group of mums out in the cold. It seems somewhat ironic to me that an anti-bf culture, & the resultant pro-bf backlash (backlash is not a bad thing here, btw), combine forces to foster such sadness for the mums who are very pro-bf, but are forced to supplement with formula milk.

And Marcy, I am so glad to read about your chubby bubby.







Enjoy it while it lasts, I have such fond memories of my kids eating anything I gave them without complaint. :LOL


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## EStreetMama

I am too tired to be profound, but I was glad to see that article. I told DH about it--and that it felt good to have some of my thoughts echoed, but overall still so sad. I have no other analysis of the larger issues to add.

I was feeling weird about going to an MDC gathering today with my bottles of formula, but I know that individuals are almost always generous and kind in person, even if they were to be judgemental about generalizations. This whole thing has taught me alot about judging people for how I perceive their care of their babies/kids. You really never know what someone is going through!!!

On a super positive note, an MDC mom is now pumping for me! Yay! We have the same midwife so I feel good about the health issues. I was worried about that. ALSO, my sweet babers nursed (8 weeks old on Sat) for a bit both yesterday and today after a 3 week strike!!!!

Take care everybody!
--Adrienne
(someday I'll get the signature going)


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## aussiemum

Hmmmm...... this has nothing to do with low-milk supply, but didn't our thread used to be in the FYT forum? Or did I miss a change somewhere?


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## Victorian

wow you are right. Wonder when that change happened!

I sure hope that this doesn't open our tribe to judgements or debate. If it does, let's all hit the ! button and request SANCTUARY!!

Adrienne - I know how you feel re: bottles (it was super hard to go to doula gatherings). But, I haven't yet met a mama in PDX that would judge you so please feel free to whip out whatever is necessary









Call me again if you need to talk or need help









V.


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## MarcyC

Thanks, Jen! We haven't had too much success weaning from supplements either. There are a few positives, though. I usually don't need to use the SNS first thing in the morning or for any 'overnight' feedings. And...depending on how long and when we're going to be out, I don't always need to use the SNS in public. She's getting so antsy when we're in public she really doesn't want to take the time to nurse anyway. Today she was so hungry she was crying so I tried to nurse and it was 'on and off and on and off and on and off.' I'm thinking...geesh...if you're that hungry then just nurse already. Every time someone new walked by she had to check things out (we were at the mall).

We DID used to be in "finding your tribe"! I'm glad they moved us to breastfeeding so low supply moms can find us. It's so easy just to give up and switch to formula/bottles - it takes a special mom to battle low-supply issues. I remember when I first did a google search I had no idea what would happen. I think I searched for "overcoming breastfeeding problems" or maybe it was "breastfeeding using an SNS". Whatever it was, thank heavens MDC was one of the sites that came up!


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## henhao

Hi Everyone,

I'm -- unfortunatly -- a new member here.

My baby and I got off to a rocky start and I never knew it. I put so much energy into pregnancy and birthing research and didn't have ANY idea bfing would be so hard.

To make a long story short, I went to the BC and was 1-2 cm. They told me I wouldn't have the baby until at least the next day. I was given a sleeping pill to take at home so I could rest up for the next day of work. We drove home. I was prob entering transition by the time we got home and we didn't know it. DH gave me the sleeping pill as per the midwife's instructions at home. Labor kept on. I had the baby about 3 hours after we first went to the BC and she came out with one push. So much for predictions.

My husband caught the baby in his hands while I stood in the hallway. I lost a lot of blood. My first time trying to get the baby to nurse was on the gurney in the ambulance.

I was anemic and no one told me that could affect milk supply. I was also on percocet and codeine in the hospital due to some painful tearing. I was in survival mode and it never crossed my mind the drugs would also make the baby sleepy. Dumb, I know. But I was very out of it at the time.

We had her weighed at 2 wks and she was a few oz under her birth weight and the ped said not to worry. Six weeks went by. We started to get concerned that she felt so light so we took her into her 8-wk appt early and found out she'd gained only 5 oz over her birth weight!!

I called an IBCLC. She came over Friday and we put together this plan:

1. Feed more often than baby demands (baby had not been demanding enough we think).

2. Pump 6 x per day 30 min after a feeding to increase my supply.

3. Supplement with EBM as much as I can and formula when I can't BEFORE a feeding at the breast.

4. Baby will sleep 6-7 hours but I now wake her 4 hours after her final feeding to feed her.

What do you think about supplementing *before* nursing at the breast? Some people say it's better to nurse first so the baby is at her most vigorous then.

I'm taking fenugreek on my own. I don't smell like maple syrup yet, so does that mean I'm not taking enough?

I'm also eating more. I think I didn't get enough calories before.

I've cancelled all plans for the upcoming week. I have this one last week left before I have to return to work and want to put everything I have into increasing my supply.

I use a PIS and get about .5 oz from each breast when I pump. Very discouraging but I'm not giving up yet.

The LC weighed the baby before and after a feeding and the baby got about 1.5 oz from my breasts.

Please let me know about other herbs I can take and any other things you think I should do or need to know. I've read a lot at kellymom.com and am starting to read the Jack Newman articles.


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## EStreetMama

HI Deborah--it's me from our August group. Also (unfortunately) here too.

Are you using an SNS? As I posted on the other thread, I highly recommend that you use one to preserve the baby's preference for the breast over the bottle. My baby now refuses to nurse and I can't possibly express how much I regret not fighting harder to keep him at the breast in the first place!!

Otherwise, there are two medications which can help milk supply: Reglan and Domperidone. I am taking Reglan which is helping somewhat, but has some potential side effects. Domperidone can be effective, but is not FDA approved for lactation so it's harder to get insurance to pay for it and can be expensive and have to order online, etc.

Another herb that has been found to be helpful, especially for people with PCOS, is Goat's Rue. I have been taking it for almost a month--not sure it's helping, though.

Just keep pumping!! Try to pump for 20 mins if you can. The schedule you are on is probably incredibly difficult to maintain, so go easy on yourself and arrange as much self-care and treats that you possibly can.

Is there anyway you can get a postpartum doula or someone who can help you this week?

Take care--wishing you and little O the best!

--Adrienne


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## Quirky

I disagree with the advice to supplement before putting her to the breast - I would definitely nurse first then give any supplements through an SNS to stimulate your supply further.

I would add blessed thistle to the fenugreek - 3-4 capsules 3 times a day - or bag the pills and go for More Milk Plus by Motherlove. I would check Whole Foods, MOM's (My Organic Market) - in Rockville, and/or the Village Green Pharmacy off West Cedar Lane. I'm pretty sure it's sold locally. I would also consider ordering domperidone from www.globaldrug.tv - it will take a couple of weeks to get here. If you want to take it and need some, PM me as I have a box left over.

I would also rent a hospital grade pump - and make sure the flanges are the right size for your breasts. One size does not fit all!

Can you delay going back to work for another week and treat the remaining time as one long giant nurse-in?

Are you co-sleeping so baby can nurse at night as much as possible?

ETA: also make sure to eat a big bowl of oatmeal every morning for breakfast. I can also lend you the book Mother Food about foods/herbs that increase/decrease supply.


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## Victorian

I agree completely with Quirky. All supplements should be done at the breast. Also on the hospital grade pump...PIS is good if you have established your supply already.

On you on *disability* through work? Ask your doctor for a note that you are unable to return to work yet.

V.


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## henhao

Quirky--

Thanks! I'll pm you.

Yes, she co sleeps with us but she was already sleeping through the night on her own. I had to rouse her after 4 hours and it sometimes take an hour to get her awake and then by the time I nurse and rouse her constantly it's another hour or so.

i feel like night feedings are not going well.

nak...
why wld an lc say to supplement b-4? crazy.

adrienne--sorry to see you here also.

i'm scared to ask for another week off...i'm a chicken...my boss is nice and wld prob say yes but our company is small...technically he did not have to give me any time off but he gave me 2 months total and a month of that paid.


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## JenInMpls

The only reason why I could think that an LC would suggest to supplement first would be that if you are not having a let-down or making enough milk, baby may be so hungry that she's not going to want to just hang out and work to get that milk and so may not stay latched on - supplementing first maybe would take the edge off so that she was willing to concentrate on nursing. However, as others have suggested, you can use a supplementer like a Lact-Aid or SNS and both supplement and nurse at the same time. We've been doing it for over a year.

More Milk Plus now comes in a concentrated gel-cap form, if you don't like taking the liquid. Don't know if it's available in stores yet but motherlove has it on their website. Also check the labels of maple-flavored teas - my friend sent me a "Maple Herbal Tea" that she got on a trip to Canada and its main ingredient is fenugreek - and it must be a lot, my dp says I reek like syrup after I drink it.

Some compounding pharmacies dispense domperidone. My Dr prescribed it to me and I got it at a local compounding pharmacy, no problem.

Good luck... jen


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## EStreetMama

I was just trying to go to sleep and I realized no one had explained SNS for you, Deborah, and I think it's really important. So I jumped up to the keyboard. PLEASE ask your LC about this ASAP.

SNS is a Supplemental Nursing System with a container of EBM or formula which runs into a tube. You put the end of the tube in the baby's mouth at the nipple, so they are getting the extra food while nursing. It keeps them from developing a preference for the bottle because it gives them more food and faster food.

It's another thing to have to deal with logistically, but if it can save your breastfeeding, it's WORTH IT!!!! Please learn from my mistakes and painful painful regret.

Here is the link for Medela's SNS... and there is another one available called a Lact-Aid. Maybe another user could tell you the pro's/con's of the Lact-Aid vs. Medela's SNS.

Sorry to be such a pushy mama...but please call your LC and ask her about it this morning!!!!!

Take Care! Wishing you the best this week...

--Adrienne and little Owen


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## henhao

pak

i don't think yr being pushy!

i have a follow up call with the LC today and will ask, but i've already ordered the lact-aid and it shld arrive wedneday....i googled sns and found out what it meant.







until then, i guess we do bottles.

why didn't the lc tell me about sns?!

i pimpued 5 times yesterday and bf'd about 10. i do little else these days!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adrienne*
I was just trying to go to sleep and I realized no one had explained SNS for you, Deborah, and I think it's really important. So I jumped up to the keyboard. PLEASE ask your LC about this ASAP.

SNS is a Supplemental Nursing System with a container of EBM or formula which runs into a tube. You put the end of the tube in the baby's mouth at the nipple, so they are getting the extra food while nursing. It keeps them from developing a preference for the bottle because it gives them more food and faster food.

It's another thing to have to deal with logistically, but if it can save your breastfeeding, it's WORTH IT!!!! Please learn from my mistakes and painful painful regret.

Here is the link for Medela's SNS... and there is another one available called a Lact-Aid. Maybe another user could tell you the pro's/con's of the Lact-Aid vs. Medela's SNS.

Sorry to be such a pushy mama...but please call your LC and ask her about it this morning!!!!!

Take Care! Wishing you the best this week...

--Adrienne and little Owen


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## Victorian

s Adrienne. I wish I could help







Are you coming to my Naked Baby Party tomorrow?

I "made" an SNS with my IBCLC using a tube and a bottle. I worked and cost .50.


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## henhao

I just spent $60 on a SNS.

I'm ready to throw in the towel on this endeavor.


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## aussiemum

Oh no! Don't throw in the towel just yet- that 60 bucks may have just been the best money you'll ever spend.









I agree with Adrienne- in hindsight I wish I had tried to use a SNS with my kids. At the time I was not in the right headspace, iykwim, to even think about it, & I regret that. Because I didn't try to use one, I will never know if it would have helped us out. Anyway, if i ever did have another bub (which I'm not!







) I would definitely use the SNS if I had difficulties again. Live & learn, I guess.

Have you had a chance to try yours out yet, henhao? What do you think of it?


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## JenInMpls

Hey - I've spent $120 on 2 SNSes and at least $40 in replacement tubes by now. Well worth it as I'm still nursing my little guy! I also spent $75 on a Lact-Aid but was able to recup $50 of it on eBay...

Let me tell you: at first you will probably want to yank the thing off and pitch it across the room in a fit of pique. This feeling may last for weeks. All I can do is offer you a virtual shoulder rub and the mantra "I am stubborn. I will nurse my baby. I will give this thing 6 weeks. I am stubborn..." ad nauseum. I am one of the poorest people at dealing with inanimate objects that frustrate me, I actually did throw the thing across the room and still get a little frustrated with it to this day (when it's the middle of the night and i can't get the tube situated in his mouth properly and I think "why don't my gd breasts just WORK so I didn't have to go through all of this s- just to feed my kid...!!!!") but I console myself with the fact that I - and all of the other supplementing mamas! - went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above and beyond the call of duty to do something we felt so strongly about.

You can do it!!! we need a rosie the riveter smilie.









j


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## speedknitter

Is this the group where you get *excited* when your boobie leaks?
If so, I have found my home. :LOL

Things started out great, but at about 6 weeks PP my supply went to you-know-where. We met with an LC, and she started us on the SNS, and have been using it ever since. Went from having an unhappy, cranky, always hungry little baby to a robust and happy 6 month old. What a difference...

Yes there are days when I want to toss that darn thing away and give up, but most days are great and I am just happy that I can give her whatever I can produce. There are days when I feel guilty that maybe I have not done everything I could possibly do to make my supply better, but life is a balance, and I remind myself that I'm doing the best I can with the time, energy and resources I have.

Gotta go, the teething monster calls...glad to find this tribe. I don't really hang out in the tribal area so glad it was moved over here.


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## MarcyC

Susan - you found the right tribe!!! Leaks are great things around here! I even got excited that DD bit me! I was just happy that we made it this long. We're using the SNS at 6 months as well and I'll use it as long as I am nursing.


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *speedknitter*
Is this the group where you get *excited* when your boobie leaks?

Ho yeah, you shoulda seen the thrilled expression when (nearly a year ago) he would take long naps or something and I would start to leak. This, of course, never happens anymore... I think he would have to not nurse for 2 days for me to feel engorged now...

j


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## TurboClaudia

henhao: just thinking about you and wondering how your week has been going and how you and your babe are doing...

post an update when you can.

















~claudia


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## henhao

TUrboClaudia --Thanks for asking...

Hi all,

I'm continuing to take fenugreek, eat oatmeal every day, drink and eat enough and use breast compression.

Small gains: Baby sucks vigorously for longer. The LC said we could reduce supplement by 1 oz every few days
and we'll keep an eye on weight gain.

Another small gain: Last week, I shorted her some of the supplement; it was a VERY hectic day by myself with DD. She
nursed constantly and I didn't even have time to pump...I hoped that having her nurse was better than the pump
anyway. =) So I slowly stopped pumping the 6x per day rec'd by the LC and started to nurse more often to
stimulate supply. Despite being shorted, the baby gained another 6 oz!! So I'm really hopeful we can
give her less supplement and more MM.

Confusion: How do I know when I'm making enough?

My challenge now is that I'm back at work and having letdown issues with the pump. I only got 4 oz in 3 pumping
sessions!! I've got to train myself to do better. So she won't have enough MM for the next time I'm gone all day.

When I get home tonight, I'll have a nurse-a-thon with the baby. Tmw, I work from home so will have her in the sling
and nurse all I can.

It's frustrating either way. Feeding an infant -- whether bfing or ffing -- is just plain hard.

-hh


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## LeosMama

To 'know' if you're making enough,

Is the baby happy and sated after a feed, or in general?
Are there many wet and poopy diapers? You should be tired of changing diapers!
Is she gaining weight (depends somewhat on the age of the baby and her growing potential, a 6 mo baby often slows down the weight gain and grows lengthwise)?
How are the developmental milestones? How's her muscle tone?

I used to weigh my boy 2-3 times a week and kept a record and graphed it. My low supply was caused by his inability to nurse. By the time I caught the problem, my milk was nearly gone.

Here are a few of the things I've learned:
1 - Pumping is hell.
2 - Anyone with an MD degree knows NOTHING about breastfeeding. There are a few notable exceptions, but these prove the rule.
3 - Don't trust anyone with an MD (or often any other med prof) when they blab to you about breastfeeding.
4 - Mothers' intuition is right. Trust it.
5 - Persistence is the key to success.
6 - Breastfeeding is worth the struggle.
7 - My son's nutrition and health and long-term well-being are worth my struggle.
8 - Being a mama is hard. Get used to it.

-Lindsay


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## Victorian

Welcome Lindsay. It is good to have another low-milk-supply mama in the thread. Hopefully you will stay around and support









Henhao - are you using the SNS at home? When you do you will notice that the baby is taking less and less of the supplement which means that they are getting more and more from you.

It is hard to tell when you are supplementing. You really have to follow your baby's lead and trust that they will eat what they need. When you feel it is a good time, you can start (letting your ped know) reducing the amount of supplement offered. Keep track of diapers. A good ped. will let you drop in and weigh whenever, or if there is a local lactation clinic you could do a drop in weighing. Weigh weekly, if the weight starts to slow way down or drop off, increase the amount again. It is tricky, I know.

If you are able to, I know that a lot of lactation clinics will rent you a scale so that you can do in home weigh ins.

It is so stressful. I know.







s to you.

V.


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## aussiemum

henhao, so glad to read your update.







I know you are still struggling at the coalface of low supply, but I do think you should stop & give yourself a big pat on the back as your bub has gained 6 ozs! I think that is just great, & whilst there will no doubt be ups & downs with supply, I would take that as a good indicator that you will be able to gradually decrease supplements.

HOw does the baby like the SNS, btw?


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## chapulina

Hi everyone,

just want to say that all of you wise and devoted mammas are truly amazing!
been reading your thread lately, thinking that maybe this is my thread too, and when I read someone's posting about signs of low supply, I now realize that we fit that picture totally.









dd is 12 weeks old, weighs 10# 15oz. yesterday. born at 9# 2 oz. she went as low as 8# after birth.

anyway, the sopping wet diapers she had in the beginning aren't as wet anymore, she fusses around and is only happy when she's nursing, which is *constantly* - literally all day long, with some short, frequent 10min. naps in between. doesn't fall asleep for anything longer than 15".

yesterday, after a bottle of formula, she immediately fell into a peaceful sleep for three hours. it was heartbreaking for me









this is too discouraging for words. I desperately wanted to breastfeed her exclusively. she has severe reflux, and that seemed to explain her slow weight gain. I cut out (and still am) dairy, tomatoes and citrus from my diet and it decreased the spit up, but she didn't gain. We've also had thrush twice, and after GSE and diflucan and my cutting out refined sugar, it has cleared. I recently came across info. on hypothyroidism and bfing, and had my tsh level re-checked (i've been on synthroid for 6 years), and I think this has a part in my low supply.

with dd #1, I bfed and used formula, until 16mon. and it was rough, as we had thrush issues, she was a HN and colicky baby and also had bad reflux problems. i had plugged ducts regularly, like every couple of weeks or so. I pumped daily, but rarely got more than 1oz.

currently, I take fenugreek and eat a big ol bowl of oatmeal everyday. I'm not sure if i could do the sns i've heard discussed - it seems overwhelming, as I have a intense and needy 3.5yo and I am returning to work in 2 weeks (2 days/week). I guess i came here to









i'm curious if anyone with hypothyroid has had milk supply issues too?
anyway, thanks for being here.


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## EStreetMama

I believe I am hypothyroid--haven't checked in awhile. I treat it with an awesome kelp supplement called Modiflian. It has REALLY helped me and helped me get pregnant. You can take 4 capsules while breastfeeding, but I haven't started it up again yet.

If you are open to medicines, your doctor can prescribe Reglan or Domperidone. Reglan is currently sorta working for me although it gives some people horrible side effects.

Are you pumping at all?

Sorry you're having a hard time while you discover this issue!!! It really does suck, but hopefully you can get your supply up and keep on bf'ing as intended. Do you have a lactation consultant?


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## speedknitter

Chapulina,

You might want to give the SNS a try, when compared to preparing, measuring etc bottles of forumula and also breastfeeding what you can, it actually seems to be to be a time-saver. I do "splurge" and purchase the "ready to feed" formula which makes my busy life a LOT easier.

Your story sounds almost exactly like mine, dd was 9 lbs 0 oz at birth and was only 11 lbs at 3 months. I am still very sad and disappointed that I have not been able to exclusively breast feed, so I totally understand how you feel.


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## MarcyC

I agree that the SNS saves time. Before the SNS at each feeding we were nursing, then bottle, then pumping (double), then washing bottle, pump parts, etc. Now I have two SNS's which I try to keep cleaned and filled and ready (when I'm done with one feeding, I wash out that SNS and fill the next one). So now I just hook up the SNS (which I'm so much better at than in the beginning), and nurse. No more pumping b/c my breasts/nips are being stimulated every 2 1/2-3 hours by someone who is much more effective than a pump. I do use powdered formula and use a tupperware shaker to mix it up. I try to keep it full/washed as well. My big splurge was ready-to-feed nursette bottles ordered directly from the formula company. I use those when we're out in public. It was a big splurge, but we use them sparingly. And here's a tip: get rid of all bottles and artificial nipples. Out of sight=out of mind, kwim? This way I am not tempted to go to bed early and let DH stay up with her or leave the house/or her for a feeding. I haven't missed a feeding in over 3 months!


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## LeosMama

Hi V, thanks for the welcome. I wish I hadn't gone through what I did and so fit in here, but it's good to be able to offer some advice from my experience.

Henhao, you're doing great. There's no easy way to deal with any of this, and if you feel fatigued and frazzled, that's normal. It takes a special mama to keep at it and give her baby breastmilk in the face of this. You can do this. I did it, many of us did it. It doesn't make you a superwoman - I've had friends give me that excuse for not trying at all, that they're not superwoman - just a great mama!

I also think that your LC is a little weird. Supplement before feeding? Only just a little to take the edge off so she's not frantic. But not more than a couple of ounces (depending on baby's age). And to not tell you about the SNS?

Please keep at it and keeping asking questions. We are all here to help.

And BTW, I dried up at 16 months, but I still nurse my boy (20 months) for night-night snugglies and for waking up in the morning or when he's having a rough day and needs close and private mama time. Breastfeeding is about more than milk.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

I received at bfp on 11/3/05...due In July.
I have PCOS and haven't ever had a full supply. I have donated bm coming for this baby....I am so happy about this!!!!
I produce about 3-4 oz a day...that is it!!!

The one thing I am doing this pg is that I am staying on Metformin 2000mg ER and progesterone cream am & pm during my pg. I will stop the prog cream at 36 weeks.

With this, I am really hoping that I can increase my supply, at least a little. I have used domperidone in the past and it didn't work for me...the only thing I recieved from it was horrible mood swings...

I have also used fenugreek in high doses in the past with no avail....

So...I will be sticking around this thread for awhile...

TIA


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## henhao

Oh, gosh, Thank you. Your comments brought tears to my eyes.

I'm WOHM and WAHMing. DH and I swap days... The days I pump I get maybe 5 oz if I'm lucky. I pump 4 x on the highest speed with a PIS to get that much. I massage, dangle to let gravity help and sometime use one flange and go back and forth.

Actually, I was pretty darned happy to get a little more than 5 oz from a day of pumping. Last week, I could only get 4 oz.

I know that the amt I pump has little to nothing to do with what the baby would get in a day while nursing. In fact, I know there's milk in there that won't come out. Today I have plugged ducts in my "good" breast. Ever since I had plugged ducts in my left, the left side has been a lower producer. --sigh-- Now my right is plugged.

Well, I'm happy to report that DD gained 20 oz in 18 days or so. We don't always give the whole amount of supplement. For instance, DH just feeds her what she wants when I'm gone, so we have no idea what she'd get from me vs what would be considered the "supplement."

For the past few days, I reduced the supp a LOT to see if my milk would go up. DD nursed a lot and seemed very happy.

This past weekend I pumped whenever I could so she'd had enough MM for when I was gone today.

V--About the SNS. The LC dropped by and showed me how to use it. I haven't even opened the box.







I'm so overwhelmed with baby, work, relationship and this milk supply thing.

Hang in there everyone!


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

henhoa...
Thank you so much for posting. I am glad that you are seeing an increase when you pump...that is great news...I do agree with never knowing exactly how much babe is getting, etc...
I would feel "full" or even "engorged" after pumping for 15 minutes using the Lactina...That has always made me crazy to think that there is more milk in there...but it just isn't coming out....


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## TurboClaudia

thinking of you, mamas...

~claudia


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## henhao

Maybe my LC is a bit odd compared to what you are used to. In the end, though, she's helped a lot.

She's caring and I think she's the kind of person who doesn't want to overwhelm a new mom, esp one with this problem. She might be right. If she'd come in on the first visit and done all she did PLUS told me about the SNS and a bunch of other things she didn't mention right away, I could very well have felt overwhelmed.

Also, I think she waited to see how things went before suggesting the SNS. If my milk went up, then I would not have needed it and it'd be a waste of money. She also waited a bit before suggesting the hospital grade pump.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm seeing improvement even if it's slower than I'd like so I'm happy.

You know how I had those plugged ducts? Well, I came home -- oh they were painful!! -- and pumped because DD was sleeping. I got 3 oz in 5 min!! That is SO unliked me and so I think I could get more milk out if I was more relaxed at work. Would it be insane of me to drink a few oz of beer at work? I heard dark beer is good for milk prod but is that true? I know it'd be relaxing. The funny thing is that I don't drink, but I will if it helps...


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## LeosMama

Good job on the 3 oz in 5 min, henhao! Keep at it! Did you feel the plugged duct come clear? Sometimes one can feel that. I'm not trying to discourage you or downplay the good production, but sometimes once the plug is clear, you get the backed up milk supply flowing, so that can contrib more milk.

Most of what I've read about beer helping milk supply has shown no connection. Also that being relaxed provides no extra volume. But what they're missing is in looking at the complexities of pumping. It's a whole lot different than direct bfing b/c there's all the mental stuff to it. If you can't relax and ease yourself into it, then nothing's coming out. So in that respect, I can see that the beer might be of help. But keep in mind that drinking alcohol and then pumping means you'll have a little bit of alchohol in the milk after about 30 min. So drink your beer, feel the relaxation, get in the mood, and pump. The alcohol hits the blood stream first, not the milk, so you do have some time.

Pumping is all about mindset, so do whatever you have to do to get there and relax and think about nourishing the baby. Imagine warm squishy baby thoughts and just let your love for her overflow into your eyes and arms and heart and get all teary. That is what helped me best, I think the lovey hormones help your milk let down.


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## carrietorgc

deborah - just butting in to say that taking soya lecithin can help prevent plugged ducts







I got them very easily with dd and would have mastitis very quickly - it really helped me. you can find it at cvs - www.kellymom.com has dosage info, but i think 3 pills a day would do it.


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## anabellee

wow. it feel comforting to know i'm not the only one out there. since i'm new, here's my story.....

ds was an excellent nurser. he latched on great everything was fine. at 2 weeks into it he started crying constantly. the crappy LC at the local hospital said that he was allergic to my milk! (btw, we have no LLL here, i live in a really small stupid town) so we switched to formula but when that didn't work i started nursing again. all along, it turned out that he has GERD and is no on zantac for it. we didn't find this out until 2 months though and by switching to many different formulas and stuff, my milk supply was seemingly hurt beyond repair. we are at teh point now where ds nurses and takes solids (solids help with GERD) and will take a bottle from dh a few times a day. he won't take a bottle from me and when i "run out" of milk he will scream and scream until i either build back up or dh gets home to bottle him. i've tried fenugreek and stuff but due to a huge gap in finances right now i can't get any more. i havent' given up hope yet but the whole situation is so frusterating and draining.


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeosMama*
Good job on the 3 oz in 5 min, henhao! Keep at it! Did you feel the plugged duct come clear? Sometimes one can feel that. I'm not trying to discourage you or downplay the good production, but sometimes once the plug is clear, you get the backed up milk supply flowing, so that can contrib more milk.

Thanks for your reply. Yep, I realize that some of that milk was backed up. However, I'm still happy about it, because if the milk had come out during the work day like it was supposed to then I would have exceeeded my pumping output during a work day from the week before. So it's still good news for me! Those extra 3 oz would bring me up to about 8-9 for the work day. When I pumped last week, I could only get 4 oz total!

So the plugged ducts stink and the fact I couldn't get the milk out while at work stinks, but the output part has me feeling good.

Also, I've given no supplement to the baby and she had 4 wet diapers this am. I hope that is a sign of change for the better.


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anabellee*
wow. it feel comforting to know i'm not the only one out there. since i'm new, here's my story.....
he won't take a bottle from me and when i "run out" of milk he will scream and scream until i either build back up or dh gets home to bottle him. i've tried fenugreek and stuff but due to a huge gap in finances right now i can't get any more. i havent' given up hope yet but the whole situation is so frusterating and draining.

That is so frustrating, esp when bad advice is the main cause of such problems. Ugh! If it helps, bad advice helped start my probs, too. All these LCs said I had a great latch and no one told me that I should listen for swallowing. Seems obvious now, but I was completely ignorant about bfing and thought I could trust an expert.























Hugs to you. You are working hard to fix the problem.

I'm not sure how much fenugreek costs where you are or if you are near a Whole Foods. I bought 100 caps for $8. Maybe there is somewhere in your budget you all could cut back so you could afford it?


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## LeosMama

Henhao, I really want to see the pics of your babe, but the Kodak gallery thingy is asking for login info. Is there any way around this?

Anabelle,

There's more to increasing milk than taking fenugreek.
Eat oatmeal, pump as much as possible, esp after the baby has nursed or if you know he won't nurse in a while (I used to pump every two hours around the clock, just would delay a pumping until after he was done nursing). Also do lots of skin to skin time with him. You might want to ask your dr about domperidone. A five month old baby should be getting all BM. You know that, you're doing great and are a dedicated mama.









There are many who completely relactate after months or years of no bfing. Five months and current lactation should be doable! Find a good la leche league leader at least by phone to help with this. There is bound to be someone within telephone distance of you. Get on lalecheleague.org and ask one of the consultants there. They are dedicated women who can REALLY help you.

Your milk supply is NOT damaged beyond repair! You can do this!


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## TurboClaudia

welcome to our tribe, anabelle... wish you weren't here...









is your babe still going to the breast or does he refuse it and turn away? 'cause the best way to get your supply back up is to keep putting him to breast. demand creates the supply... some women respond well to herbs like fenugreek, some women respond well to pharmaceuticals like reglan and domperidone, and some women respond well to baby nursing on demand. i understand you have a low supply now, but i wonder if it is just because he hasn't been nursing to boost that supply up...

also something to know about breastmilk production that i didn't learn until our son was over a year old







is that up to 70% of breastmilk is produced WHILE the baby is nursing, so even though you may feel like you "run out", it's more like the production is not quite keeping pace with your baby's demand and preference for milk flow. he might be used to the quicker flow of a bottle, he might be used to the quicker flow of the foremilk when he starts nursing, or it might be something else.

i remember how overwhelming it felt when we were struggling with feeding our son last year at this time -- we only discovered my milk supply issues when he was 4.5 months old last october -- so please know that you are not alone and that you are making the best choices for your baby.

thinking of you...









~claudia


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## TurboClaudia

and henhao, glad to hear that you are in a good place about everything, at least right at this minute...







2 sounds like your little one is thriving because she has the best mama who loves her very much. i know you started back to work a couple of weeks ago, but how are feeling about work AND mothering AND milk supply things? just a friendly neighborhood reminder to take care of yourself as you need to and recharge...

~claudia


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## anabellee

ds prefers breast to bottle. he will NOT take a bottle from me at all so if he needs one dh has to come home and give it to him. i eat oatmeal every day for breakfast and take fenugreek as well as drink lots of mothers milk tea. i've got 2 pumps, an Avent one and a Purely Yours electric. i tried the pumping route for the first 2 months but i don't respond to them, rarely getting more than an ounce from both sides. i'm working on getting a script for Reglan, my doctor is out today so we'll find out tomorrow. i know several people who have had great results with it. as for solids already, it's not the route i wanted to go but ds is much happier on them. he eats a variety of fruits and veggies and has been doing well. he still nurses atleast 10 times a day though as well as numerous times through out the night. both my mom and my grandma (her mom) suffered from low milk supply problems and ended switching to formula. i'm hoping that with the resources available now i won't have to go that route. *crosses fingers*


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## TurboClaudia

sending you more hugs, anabellee









~claudia


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## anabellee

dh is working late...i just got done feeding ds with an eyedropper...this was not a good day...i'm supposed to here about my Reglan tomorrow *crosses fingers*


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## gracious

Hello ladies! I admit, it's a bit difficult to join this tribe







My dd is two and a half months old and is 3 oz above birth weight right now. We've been exclussively breastfeeding...until today.
I trust our Ped. very much, and today he asked us to supplement. For the past week I have been weighing Hosanna before and after feedings, and pumping at the same time. It's become obvious its not her, it's me and my milk supply.









Doctor says it's probably due to stress...oi.

I'm taking fenugreek, drinking mothermilk tea, eatting oatmeal, bathing with the babe...all these ideas that hopefully will help.

Has anyone successfully went from supplementing to exclussively breastfeeding?
and what about supplements? Right now we're giving her similac, but I'm wanting to give her goatsmilk. I know that it needs to be watered down...but I'm not sure how much...anyone know?

Anyway, I'm happy for this tribe. it's good to have support. (hi sweetpotato from xanga!







)


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## LeosMama

Gracious,

My personal response would be to ask for domperidone as well as continuing to do everything you are doing. Pump as often as you can and nurse as often as you can. Use a supplemental nursing system (SNS) to deliver the formula and expressed breastmilk. This increases your stimulation. Maybe you should have a blood work-up done to see if there are any obvious metabolic issues that, once resolved, could change your milk supply. Also, has the child's suck been evaluate d to make sure she's stimulating you properly? If she's not efficiently moving milk and stimulating the nipple properly, this could also affect your supply.

And yes, many many women have moved from supplementing to exclusive breastfeeding, and with much older babies than yours. You can do this, keep at it and keep asking questions.

BTW, have you seen a lactation consultant? You need to get in to see one ASAP as well as get a referral to a speech language pathologist to have the baby's suck evaluated.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

Thanks leosmama for the great info!!!


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## bjorker

Helly everyone.
I haven't posted to this thread before... and perhaps I should have because the past several months have been quite a ride. We're finally in a fairly good place and things have settled, but I do have a question about Domperidone for anyone that may be following this thread and has experienced it.

I've been taking it for a week now. I did read that a side-effect was crampiness, but has anyone here had a problem with it? It's finally getting better, but I hurt so bad most of this time that I was genuinely starting to become worried that something was wrong. Is there a point where too much pain might be something to worry about, beyond the realm of normal side-effects? I've been downing raspberry leaf tea and I also drank some Smart Water (at the suggestion of a friend because of electrolytes... I don't know too much about that). Today has been much better, though I notice that it's usually the worst right before I go to bed, so there is time left for me







I seem to notice that if I do take it a half hour before eating that it is better (which I know is recommended anyhow, though supposedly because it's main use is for reflux).

Also, did anyone experience delayed periods?

One of the things that's very slightly on the back of my mind is the big what-if I was pregnant and didn't know it, and now I'm taking this drug that I shouldn't be? I don't think I am, and I certainly wasn't trying... but after those mean cramps, I'm just a little paranoid.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions-- if nobody here has an idea, maybe I'll post it as a separate thread and see if I get anything.

TIA!

Sorry for the







- I'm excellent at rambling


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## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gracious*
and what about supplements? Right now we're giving her similac, but I'm wanting to give her goatsmilk. I know that it needs to be watered down...but I'm not sure how much...anyone know?


I second the advice to see a qualified lactation consultant (find one with the IBCLC certification at www.ilca.org) and have your baby's latch/suck evaluated.

It is definitely possible for many women to move from supplementation to full breastfeeding, but it's a very individual thing. It really depends on the reasons for low supply and whether your treatment measures work.

As far as formula vs. goat's milk - there is a myth that goat's milk is "the closest thing to human breastmilk." That's simply not true. Probably the closest thing to human breastmilk would be chimpanzee or gorilla breastmilk







but goat's milk is much much more like cow's milk than it is like human milk and is not appropriate for baby humans in unprocessed form. If you have to supplement your baby, use donated breastmilk from a mama you know and trust or use formula.

I think the organic formulas are preferable to the mainstream ones, and you can fortify them with powdered probiotics and omega-3s if you want to.

Please read up on goat's milk here before giving your dd any, whether or not you dilute it: http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mi...pplements.html

Quote:

Goat's Milk

Using goat's milk before 6 months or regular use between 6 and 12 months is not recommended. Goat's milk is no more appropriate to give baby than cow's milk. If you need to supplement and breastmilk is not available, formulas are a more nutritionally complete product. There are several comparisons of goat vs. cow vs. human milk in the links below. Using this information, goat milk is much closer in composition to cow milk than human milk. Goat's milk is high in sodium (like cow's milk) and is very high in chloride and potassium, which makes the renal solute load too high for babies. This can cause gastrointestinal bleeding and can result in anemia and poor growth (these problems are usually undetected until months later). Goat milk is also deficient in folic acid, which can lead to megaloblastic anemia. Also, infants who are allergic to cow's milk protein are often allergic to goat's milk too.

While it's true that whole goats milk (and whole cow's milk) was commonly used prior to the advent of infant formulas it is also true that the infant mortality and morbidity rate during the times of such substitutions was very high.
(has lots of links for more info)


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## anabellee

another wonderful MDC mama in sending me an SNS! yay!


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## LeosMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anabellee*
another wonderful MDC mama in sending me an SNS! yay!

Oh, that's wonderful. You've needed one for awhile now. Once you get used to using it, you'll find it will help your relationship with your son immensely.







Yay!

If you find you need any help or pointers on getting it set up and using it (it can be rather 'fiddly') please post here and we'll all help ASAP.

Good Luck, I'm so excited for you!


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## gracious

Thanks for the information on the goatsmilk! I had heard that it was the "next best thing" Obviously, I need to do more research...I really really hate giving my babe corn syrupy formula..bleh bleh bleh. And our natural food store doesn't carry any baby formula...









Leosmama~ Thanks for the information.







My babe's life started out in the NICU. (meconium asperation/pnemonia) she's had dr's in her life from the get go...which is why our ped let her go so long with exclussively breastfeeding. We've seen two Lc's...and we're seeing one again tomarrow. We've seen two other doctors besides her ped, and we're seeing a specialist tomarrow.
One LC said that she thinks that Hosanna is not sucking properly...but I'm only pumping about .5oz in 5 minuets...and then nothing after that. so we'll see what this other LC says.
Over the last week we have weighed her before and after feedings...at first she was gaining only 1.5oz at the feeding...by the end of the week she was gaining 3oz at each feeding...plus munching afterward (she's a big muncher)

On the bloodwork subject, I'm sorry do you mean her get bloodwork, or me? someone thought maybe her metoblism was fast...I guess there's still a lot of questions eh?


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## TurboClaudia

as for the goat's milk, the information there is good. i did notice, however, that they are all from western medicine sources like nutritionists, physicians (MDs) & businesses. they do not include sources for naturopaths research & information or others. and although the information is correct for goat's milk by itself, most do not give information about goat's milk supplemented with oils and other supplements.

we primarily used donated breastmilk and my own pumped breastmilk to supplement our son, but also decided to use supplemented goat's milk as an additional food when necessary. when mixing it, we added a flax seed/ sunflower seed oil, folic acid, and iron (every 3rd day). although we have a history of food allergies in our families, there are no cow's milk or other dairy allergies so introducing goat's milk was not a huge concern. also note, however, that we did not start supplementing until our son was over 4 months old.

i understand that it is a very personal decision, but i just wanted to point out some of these things.

to answer bjorker's questions, i did not experience crampiness when i used domperidone. is it a uterine/ lower belly crampiness or a digestive system crampiness?

as for delayed periods, are you referring to getting your periods back after baby is born? or are you referring to longer cycles after your periods have already been back? i did not get my first period back until our son was turning one year old, and although i had a longer first cycle, all my others since have been 27-28 days.

as for the pregnancy thoughts, those went through my mind as well, and i actually went so far as to take a pregnancy test to alleviate my concerns. would taking a pregnancy test help quell your thoughts?

and yay for the sns, anabellee! do you have an lc that will show you how to use it and give you her tips & tricks? it's definitely a pain to get a handle on when you are first using it, but if you are needing to use it long term, give it a month or so before you make a decision about using it or not using it.

warmly,
claudia


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## TurboClaudia

while i was typing, more posts came up...









gracious, i think she was referring to having your bloodwork done to rule out any hormone concerns like low prolactin levels or low thyroid hormones. did your baby have the pku test done? because that tests for the rare metabolic disorders that would be a concern about her...

sending you all hugs...









~claudia


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## JenInMpls

gracious you can order organic formula cheaper online than in any store, at babyorganic.com . It has no corn syrup, but rather brown rice syrup. And it doesn't stink or taste nasty, it's actually rather pleasant, believe it or not. Guess someone actually thought about the fact that breast milk does taste nice and babies might like that. It has dha/aha/ara/whatever the good acids are in it.








jen


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## LeosMama

Quote:

One LC said that she thinks that Hosanna is not sucking properly...but I'm only pumping about .5oz in 5 minuets...and then nothing after that.
Gracious, when you say 'but I'm only pumping...'. You're blaming your low supply on the lack of gain, rather than her (possibly) poor suck causing your low supply. If she doesn't stimulate you properly and doesn't empty your breasts, you will make less milk. It has nothing to do with how much you can pump (many moms with roly-poly, highly efficient nurslings can get nothing from a pump) or even with how much milk you have. If she has a poor, disorganized suck, she will decrease your supply.

What sort of specialist are you going to be meeting with?

I totally agree with Claudia about the bloodwork. If you have low prolactin levels, or thyroid problems, that could definitely affect your milk supply.

Alright, you know what to do: check the suck, pump milk, take herbs, take med's?, skin-to-skin contact, love your babe, get bloodwork, get an SNS, get some organic formula.


----------



## gracious

Thanks everyone!
The specialist we are seeing tomarrow is a pediatric specialist. He's going to try to rule out any other issues that might be present. This appointment was set up before we had realized that it was transfering the milk that was a problem. It'll be nice though to know it's nothing else.

I looked at organic formula...oi vey! that's expensive! ah well, it's for the lady









My biggest fear right now is that Hosanna will like the bottle more then me because she is getting something from the bottle...someone just tell me that that won't happen.









I let you all know how it goes!!! Thanks again for all your support!


----------



## bjorker

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
to answer bjorker's questions, i did not experience crampiness when i used domperidone. is it a uterine/ lower belly crampiness or a digestive system crampiness?

as for delayed periods, are you referring to getting your periods back after baby is born? or are you referring to longer cycles after your periods have already been back?

They've mostly been abdominal cramps, pretty much exactly like a bad period-- and sometimes leg cramps, right before I go to bed. They're definately finally tapering off, but for about 4 days there... not fun. Most every site I look at has the same information and does list that as I side effect. Some sites said it was rare, but those sites said _all_ the side effects were some form of rare (very rare, extremely rare, whatever).

As far as the period goes, I'm talking about Domperidone affecting it-- making the cycle longer. A few websites mentioned that it could alter menstruation, and I'm pretty sure I should have started by now. Obviously I need to pay better attention because I'm not too sure.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
as for the pregnancy thoughts, those went through my mind as well, and i actually went so far as to take a pregnancy test to alleviate my concerns. would taking a pregnancy test help quell your thoughts?

Yeah, I thinky I will be doing that now. Might as well put the mind at ease (or alternatively, get off the meds!)

Thanks!


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## littlehawksmom

Another low supply mama here. My babe only gained 5 oz in the last 3 weeks. Some say she is just small, because wshe has enough pees and poops and is generally very happy, but something tells it is not quite right. The midwife suggested supplamenting, but I havn't done that yet-a friend is hopefully going to give me some bmilk tomorrow. I just got a pump and have been pumping after almost every feedind (how do I do that when out running errands?). I only get about an ounce , which I gave to dd in a litttle cup (she is 4 mos). She REALLY wanted it. My midwife thinks if dd wasn't so laid back she would complain of hunger more.







I was thinking I would give her the ebm (friends or mine)ina dental syringe while nursing-I really don't want to do the SNS-I hope to get my supply up-I nursed ds, so it is doable, right? (although I had a low supply with him too, but he gained a little faster)
I am also doing teas, tinctures, will be getting acupuncture, chiropracter and trying to keeep up the calories. I think that is the hardest one for me.
We do not drink cow milk or eat soy. If my friend is unable to give me enough bmilk, does any one know anything about a goat milk formula?
Thanks. And sending strength your way, mamas...


----------



## littlehawksmom

Hi. I just noticed your goat milk info TurboClaudia, thanks for that. I think we will have to start tomorrow. I was thinking we would start with about 8 oz spread throughout the day. Any advice? Or input on the dental syringe?


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## henhao

LeosMama -- Try this link . Ofoto was bought by Kodak and they must have changed some things. That link used to work!


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## LeosMama

Henhao,








No, it still wants me to give a login. I guess I could signup, as there seems to be a lot of mamas here who use that service.


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## MarcyC

Hi there! Just wanted to say hello again. I'm on Domperidone and have NO side effects - no cramping...nothing! Reglan, on the other hand, is horrible for me! It makes me feel flu-like and "drugged." I get very out of it when on Reglan. It makes me sick just thinking about it. The problem is Dom. is expensive and Reglan is covered by my insurance company. Right now I'm alternating days - Dom one day, Reglan the next, etc... We only have 5 more months to make it a year so I'm hoping my budget will allow me to go to strictly Dom for 5 months.

For supplementing we use Enfamil Lipil. It seems to agree with her stomache and she's having no problems. A good friend of mine suggested Carnation formula since it's cheaper and supposedly easier to digest, but when we tried it, she uke .

There is some research out there (Dr. Newman's) on supplementing with solids to get away from formula supplements. I've emailed Dr. Newman and he said DD is a good candidate for it. Her pediatrician gave me the go ahead to try, but I'm a little tentative since the SNS is working so good for us.

Um.....someone posted that the baby would certainly be crying if he/she were hungry. Not always the case. DD was the most content newborn. Nursed for 20 min. every 3 hours and slept 6-8 hours at night. Who could ask for anything better? Turns out it was all due to "failure to thrive" She was losing so much weight she had no energy to cry, nurse, etc... She even slept through her heel being pricked. It was then that even 2 LLL Leaders told me to supplement!

Having bloodwork done is good - in my case I know now that I have low prolactin levels. It's sad and domperidone helps, but I may never be able to exclusively give a baby breastmilk. However, I do exclusively breast-FEED because I'm using an SNS for each feeding and NOT a bottle!


----------



## bjorker

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Hi there! Just wanted to say hello again. I'm on Domperidone and have NO side effects - no cramping...nothing! Reglan, on the other hand, is horrible for me! It makes me feel flu-like and "drugged."

Sigh. Well as my partner pointed out, I have a "sensitive body"







I was able to _feel_ my pregnancy at the beginning... right about the time it would have started showing up on a test. And I hadn't been TTC, so I wasn't looking for symptoms, lol.
I'm sorry the Reglan messes you up so bad, that's exactly why I pretty much refused to try it. Domperidone _is_ rather spendy, but to me the lack of wacky side effects is worth the $50 for 300mg of it. Though those cramps still kicked my butt! Sure glad I'm feeling better.

Thanks for responding. I must just be weird. Big suprise there!


----------



## EStreetMama

Question:
I have a horrible cold, and at the same time my milk is almost down to nothing when I pump. I am NOT taking any decongestants or anything but Tylenol.

Could my illness be causing the lowered milk supply (lower than my normal low)??

TIA!!

PS. For anyone that needs to take reglan, I am not having any sides effects, FYI. I wish insurance would pay for domperidone though.


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## LeosMama

Yes, your illness could be affecting your supply.

Drink more water. Drink enough water that you're peeing at LEAST once an hour. This ensures your body is adequately hydrated. It takes a lot of water to fight an illness, and a lot of water to make milk, and a lot of water to run your body.


----------



## TurboClaudia

adrienne: definitely the illness and the stress of the illness could be having the effect of lowering your milk supply. question for you: are you also taking fenugreek? another local mama friend had just bought a new bottle before being at peace with her choice to formula feed her almost 3 month old twins instead of pumping her own mama's milk. she asked me if i wanted it... let me know if you want it.

henhao: is that a link you emailed yourself from ofoto/kodak or is that a cut/paste from the browser bar? 'cause you need to email yourself the photo album link in order for others to be able to see your pics.

and who was it asking about goat's milk formula? what else do you want to know about it? i will try to find our "recipe" that includes amounts.

~claudia


----------



## gracious

Hello everyone








Yesterday we went to see the specialist and the LC. The LC said things look good (no poor suck, good latch) She also believes it's due to stress (too many doctors/nurses, not enough time to just enjoy being a mom) I've never thought of myself as a stressed person, but I guess in this case my body is saying otherwise!







:
So we saw the specialist...Hosanna weighed 8.2#...on Tuesday at her doctor's appointment she weighed 7.6# That's a *9 oz gain*!!!







Now I know scales can differ a bit, but I highly doubt it can differ 8 or 9 oz...it's bittersweet, I'm so thrilled that she is gaining...but it hurts my feelings it's not from me...sigh.








Other then that the doctor told us to "keep doing what we're doing" and had her get a heel stick to check for anemia *just in case* and that was about it.

We're still researching goatsmilk, I've found that it lacks b12 and Folic acid, but I still don't know how much water/goatsmilk is needed for a babe. hmmm.


----------



## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeosMama*
Henhao,







No, it still wants me to give a login. I guess I could signup, as there seems to be a lot of mamas here who use that service.

That stinks! It used to be people could just view them. -- urgh! --

Thanks Claudia--I'm editing this note to add that the link in sig now works!!


----------



## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Um.....someone posted that the baby would certainly be crying if he/she were hungry. Not always the case. DD was the most content newborn. Nursed for 20 min. every 3 hours and slept 6-8 hours at night. Who could ask for anything better? Turns out it was all due to "failure to thrive"

Yep, happened to me too! Nice to know I'm not alone in that.


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## MarcyC

gracious - the SNS made a world of difference for me (mentally). Even though I'm using formula in it, at least I know she's getting her nourishment from ME! Plus I know she's getting some breastmilk because I can still hand express and my cycles haven't returned yet.


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## LeosMama

Deb, I finally got into the gallery, thanks! What a cutie pie, so much dark hair!

Gracious, I really think you should get into using the SNS and see about getting Reglan or Domperidone. Also really evaluate what else is going on in your life that you can just dump. If your mother is painful to you, you should back her out of your life for awhile. Don't let yourself feel guilty about this. Hosanna needs you more than anybody else in the entire world. And she deserves to have all of your attention and all of your milk, so just forget about everyone else until you have your balance with your baby.
















to all these valiant mamas!


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## MarcyC

Hi everyone! Just a few questions for everyone...

Have you pinpointed the cause of your low supply? PCOS? Hormone imbalance? Reduction surgery?

Also do you get support from the lactivists or do the roll their eyes at you thinking that you're making up excuses?


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## henhao

March -- I haven't talked to any lactivists, so I can answer that. Why on earlth would someone think you're making this up? Oi vay.

All right, all of you telling Grace to use the SNS has inspired me. I AM going to learn how to use the darned thing this weekend while I'm on a little vacation.

I plan to come back here next week and at least be able to say I tried it.


----------



## TurboClaudia

never did figure out the cause of my milk supply issues. had blood tests for hormone levels done and although prolactin levels were slightly lower they were still within normal ranges.

as for lactivists, all the ones i know struggled with breastfeeding and didn't have the proper support they needed or dealt with milk supply issues themselves. to be honest, i felt more like a fraud for *having* to give my baby milks other than my own, so i didn't talk about our struggles much except for with people i knew very well and could trust. i didn't even tell my partner's side of the family about our struggles last year because i knew they wouldn't be the most supportive and wouldn't understand our choices.

henhao, sending you peaceful vibes with the SNS... there were some days i hated it and other days when i could tolerate it. if you do try it, give it a good long try, especially since you are working out the home some days. give it at least a few weeks before you make a decision about whether it's working for you and supporting your goal for breastfeeding...








we need a better name than "low milk supply tribe"... something about every little bit of mama's milk is good... must think about this...

~claudia


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## littlehawksmom

Okay, so we have started a goat milk formula. My midwife gave me a recipe-2/3 goat milk to 1/3 boiling water, some probiotics, and added iron and folic acid (if anyone wants amounts I can provide). I haven't added any iron or folic acid yet-where can I get that? I got a generic pediatric liquid vitamin, but it has yucky preservatives and parabens in it and I can't bring myself to feed that to her. She still gets plenty of my milk (we figure at least 2 oz a feeding), and we are only supplementing about 5 oz a day right now, so I think it can wait until I find a better vitamin. Any tips? She likes it I guess, but I am so clueless as to how to feed her. I tried an eyedropper and a little cup, but she gets frustrated and not much getes into her. I guess I will have to get an SNS and in the meantime a bottle. Will someone please tell me where to get an SNS and about how much they cost (I already bought a $200 pump, but it is all worth it if I can still nurse her and give her my own milk) and also which bottle to use? I am terrified that she will prefer the bottle. But she is hungry and we need to do something.
I guess I just did not want to admit that this needed to happen-like it is just a growth spurt and will get better (I always thought that with ds, too. Looking back, I maybe should have supplemented him, too, but now he is a strapping 2.5 yr old, so all's well that ends well I guess, and he gained more and more steadily than dd...).But she is hungry and needs more, so she will have the goat milk (fortified) and I will work my hardest to get up my supply and nurse this babe for at least a year! Mark my words! It is the most important thing to me right now. I am seeing an herbalist and will soon meet with an acupuncturist who specializes in breast feedind problems/women's issues). I don't really know the problem-I have always had liver/hormone issues, dd is not a very aggressive nurser (aggressive is the wrong word, but you know what I mean), it is hard to relax and nurse with ds climbing all over me....
I have more questions for you all. How often and when should I be pumping? It is really hard to fit it in. And what about when I am out? Also, can I reheat an unfinished bottle?
Thanks for the support and please some SNS and bottle advice would be great. Sorry if this info has already been given, but this thread is so long!


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## littlehawksmom

check out these recipes for homemade formula...
http://www.budget101.com/recipes/id771.htm
Not too sure what I think, but me and dh are allergic to cow, and soy doesn't do us any good either, so goat is the next best thing to bmilk. Hopefully, a few friends will pump some for me, but they don't have good pumps.

Hang in there, everybody!


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## MarcyC

Hi Allie and welcome! I know it's hard to have low supply. You can get an SNS directly from Medela. Depending on your supply issues and how much your baby drinks at a time, you should either get a starter or full sized. The good news is that when we began using the SNS at each and every feeding I was able to stop pumping because my breast were (and still are) getting direct stimulation from someone who is way more efficient than a pump every 2-3 hours. Just go to www.medela.com to order. If you need a bottle today, I've heard good things about playtex natural-latch and Avent. If you can get to a pharmacy that carries med. supplies ask the pharmacist for syringe and tubing, you can finger-feed with that which (in my opinion) is better than a bottle, but always NURSE FIRST. Oh, you can also use the syringe and tubing the same way you would an SNS.

I just use regular Enfamil for supplementing and DD hasn't had a problem. I've heard than ANY breastmilk they get can even help them in digesting whatever else they might get - be it formula or solids. Breastmilk is truly amazing.

Here's hoping this tribe gets it's own board altogether!


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## JenInMpls

You can also get SNSes on eBay, I buy SNS supplies (new tubes, etc) from a seller called "Maternity and More", they seem to have a direct line to Medela and sell their stuff cheaper.

There is a baby formula recipe in Sally Fallon's book "Nourishing Traditions" that a mom at the school where I teach forwarded to me when she heard I was having low milk supply, because she did too and fed it to her daughter. There is a company that even sells kits for making her formula. It may take some digging to find the recipe and the company's name, I just know it has "Light" in the name (new light?).

Henhao: the SNS can be very challenging - be patient with yourself and it and your baby most of all, and if you find the tape to be terribly annoying, try just holding the tube against your nipple and popping it into baby's mouth. It takes practice but it sure beats all that tape, I think. Good luck, I will be thinking of you all weekend!

My prolactin levels are normal, and Domperidone didn't help me much. I seem to have very few working milk ducts, and my breasts did not change much during pregnancy except for the nipples darkening, nor did they hurt at all in early pregnancy. Tristan's latch was good and very strong. All signs therefore point to hypoplasia, although Dr. Jack Newman dismissed this as a myth and insisted that it was something with how I was latching him on (because, of course, the LCs and LLL leader I worked with here, live and in person, wouldn't be able to judge?







). I wondered at first if it was an herb I was taking, chaste tree berry, to deal with extreme breast pain I would have right before my periods, but all research says that it doesn't have a negative effect on milk production. Still, if there's a 2nd kid ever, I will not be taking it, just to rule out all possibilities...

happy weekend, Jen


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## TurboClaudia

there's also an sns made my Lact-Aid, which is a home-based business started by a couple who received their babies through adoption. the mama really wanted to breastfeed but needed to be able to supplement, too, so the dad developed a supplemental delivery system for the sxtra milks. you can look at their system more at www.lact-aid.com sometimes you can find those systems on ebay, too. and some LCs also sell them.

jen: have you seen the pictures of the breasts with hypoplasia? 'cause there a few sites with them, and it was very helpful to me to mostly rule out the idea that it is what affected me. i will try to find the links... it might be further back in this thread... most of the time, i really like dr. jack newman, but when he doesn't believe this whole low milk supply thing, it bothers me...

~claudia


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## JenInMpls

Claudia - yes, I found 007b.com the most useful site of all the sites I could find on hypoplasia, and while my breasts have a little more roundness to them on the undersides than the one example of hypoplastic breasts she gives on her site, they are definitely widely-set and conical with larger-than-proportionate nipples. It may run in the family, as my sister is extremely lopsided (another tip-off for hypoplasia), but we'll never know, as my mom never breast-fed and my sister never had children.

*shrug* Jen


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## henhao

Things are turning around, I think. Baby is gaining even though I've not given her very much supplement. This weekend, I might swing by the bf center in my town and get a before and after weigh.

I'm pumping at the moment. I used to get 4 oz in a day and now I've got nearly 3 oz on one side. I'm getting the hang of the mental pumping game.


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## MarcyC

Great to hear you're having a good day! Just know that in the course of supplementing there are good days and bad days. You're not alone when you have a bad day. A BF Center sounds great! I wish we had one here.


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## Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
Things are turning around, I think. Baby is gaining even though I've not given her very much supplement. This weekend, I might swing by the bf center in my town and get a before and after weigh.

I'm pumping at the moment. I used to get 4 oz in a day and now I've got nearly 3 oz on one side. I'm getting the hang of the mental pumping game.


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## aussiemum

Oh henhao, that is fantastic news! Well done mama.









Gosh, I feel like throwing a party!











































:


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## EStreetMama

Deborah--good job, mama!!!!


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## henhao

Thanks everyone!!

Here's what I did to increase my supply:

--I hired a LC to help me make a plan. Here's what I did based on her suggestions and suggestions from people on MDC.

--Ate oatmeal every day
--Took 3 caps of fenugreek 3 x per day
--For one week, I pumped 4-6 x per day and nursed 8-12 x per day to increase supply. I fed all EBM to DD. This was NOT easy and I barely had time to do ANYthing else besides nurse and pump. As soon as I was done nursing, it was almost time to start pumping and then it was time to nurse again.
--Early in this process, I woke at 0400 each day and pumped. When my mat leave ended, I stopped doing that.
--I made sure I got enough calories in a day. I tracked calories until I got a sense of what makes 1800 calories. Now I just eat until I don't feel hungry.
--Watch my water intake. I drink a glass (or two!) each time I nurse.
--I made sure my anemia was gone and ate steak and took iron until it was.
--Did 2 boob camps with DD. We sat around without shirts together and nursed.
--Cosleeping and allowing nursing all night long
--Don't go more than 2 hours without pumping while at work and no more than 4 at night, though I've increased it to 5 (if DD stays asleep) for my sanity.
--Sometimes I'll pump on one side and nurse on the other.
--If DD is asleep and it's been a while since she nursed, I'll pump.
--Switch nursing...I nurse on one side until baby slows down, then I burp and switch her to the other side. Repeat.
--I offer the breast ALL the time.
--We started supplementing 12 oz per day. Once she established weight gain, we reduced supplement by 1 oz every few days in the hopes my body would make up the one oz, which it seems to have done.

We supplemented with formula. I thought this was a tragedy and was quite upset about it, but that's what formula is for!

We used -- gasp -- bottles. The LC recommended the slow flow nipple on an Avent bottle. DD was confused by it at first but now takes it just fine, and we've had no nipple confusion. She would have had to take a bottle in daycare anyway. Plus, I think it helps that DD really enjoys being at the breast. She finds comfort there that she doesn't find in a bottle.


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## LeosMama

Oh, henhao, that's wonderful! We're all so proud and pleased!!

Yay!!

















What an amazing mama!


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## JenInMpls

Lady, that's a freakin lot of work and you are a supermama, I don't care what anyone says!!!






































Jen









eta ps: gosh, good thing you live east of the Mississippi or I'd have to give up my senior title


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## TurboClaudia

henhao, i'm so happy for you!






























but i have to admit i'm a wee bit jealous that all of that worked for you and didn't work for me... will this feeling ever go away? it's been a year...

~claudia


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## LeosMama

Claudia,


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## MarcyC

henhao, I am so happy for you! This is great news and something for other low supply moms to strive for...it CAN be done!









Claudia -







I know how you feel! It's been 7 months for us. I did the math today - I have 174 days of domperidone left over. After that, our nursing relationship is a great big







:.

Takin' it one day at a time.

Okay, a few questions:

How can this tribe get it's own board? Aren't there enough of us? I know a lot of us have to supplement w/formula which goes against NFL and WHO







....but there are a lot of women here like henhao who are so committed to overcoming the low-suppy issue and a lot of women using SNS/lact-aid committed to "feeding at the breast". So many boards simply have a "breast feeding" board and a "bottle feeding" board. I don't 100% fit into either one. MDC should stand out and be the web site offer a board to supplementers...

And...if you were to rename this thread what would call it....

Dom Moms?


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## anabellee

well, long time gone, so sorry. update on our "problems". yesterday ds only had one bottle! today he's only had one as well but the day has been miserable with him refusing to nap and only wanting to nurse all day. the SNS is working ok, i've only had to use it a few times so far. it's difficult as it is so cold in my house and the contraption requires me to remove my shirt which makes the whole process rather chilly. it's been awhile since ds has last eaten and i want to pump but he keeps twitching awake. my fear is that if i do go pump he'll want to eat now but if i don't, he'll stay asleep. *sigh*


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## LeosMama

I agree that Low-Supply should be its own sub-forum under breastfeeding. This would have all kinds of questions and topics related to increasing supply, choosing appropriate supplements, learning about appropriate gadgets/aids, etc. This is above and beyond the simple breastfeeding board as it is specialized to our needs. Obviously there would be overlap, but that is the case on many of these subforums here.


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## henhao

Oh, Claudia...I'm sorry. Hugs to you, mama.

You prob did this already...but I'll ask anyway just in case...Have you had your thyroid checked?

I'm not 100% out of the woods yet. I've improved, but we're still supplementing.


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## TurboClaudia

yes, had my thyroid checked and my prolactin levels checked. prolactin was a little lower, but thyroid was normal. i'm pretty sure my one grandmas was hyperthyroid, though. she could eat like a horse and was skinny-skinny. well, she also smoked.

i'm really, really happy for you, henhao...







working so hard at it when many others might have just thrown in the towel for the full-time bottle feeding artificial baby milks. just keep believing...

~claudia


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## aussiemum

Oh Claudia.....







I know what you mean about _that_ feeling....

And yes, it does get better over time. When I practice feeling happy for other mamas who overcome breastfeeding difficulties, it helps, but I do think a little twinge of regret always remains for what might have been in your own nursing relationship. But that's okay. I find that I am getting better at putting my own sadness in one part of my heart, & letting the joy shine thru from another part of my heart when I see a mama with a happy breastfed baby. It just takes time (my youngest is 5 now). Big hug to you.


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## aussiemum

And on the administrative side, I agree that the low-supply tribe would be better served by a subforum. Whilst remaining very pro-bf'ing, Mothering mag, via Peggy's last editorial, has somewhat smoothed the path for us low-supply mamas. THe time is ripe for a subforum.

So, what do we do? Chain ourselves to our servers or what?


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## aussiemum

And finally..... whew!

I just loved Peggy's last editorial. It made me cry, & I really should write her a letter thanking her for her positive words of compassion. I don't know why, but somehow it made me feel validated that finally someone in our community was recognising that low supply happens. And that it sucks.

.................

No pun intended.


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## henhao

nak

could you post the link? i didn't see the column yet and i'd like to read it.


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## aussiemum

No worries. Here's the link.









http://www.mothering.com/guest_edito...iet_place.html

eta: just re-read the editorial, & wanted to point out that it is not primarily about breastfeeding & low-supply, but about regret & parenting & forgiveness. Actually, it's about a lot of stuff! I think it's the best piece she's written in the years that I've been reading the mag. okay, wiggly 5 yr old on my lap...... gotta go.


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## Perogi

Right now I'm really wishing that Low Supply had it's own board....I want to post this specific problem within this thread because this is where I feel comfortable and supported and I know you will understand.

I'm mostly a lurker on this thread but I follow it with interest. Here's a quick background - dd#1 - high palate, latch issues, confused LC who recommended pumping and bottle feeding - did that only for 5 months.
Dd#2 - latch issues, lazy nurser, cracked and bleeding - nipple shield, pump and bottle feed to allow healing, finally got exclusively bf'ing. She takes a bottle fine and a couple of times I've let dh bottle feed her. For quite some time I've found myself needing to supplement 1-2 4oz bottles of formula in the evening. Recently dd has been waking a lot all night long and fussing, not sleeping as well during the day, etc. But very frustrated at the breast (which, for this laid back babe means just giving up). I've also noticed a decrease in the number of wet diapers. I have a very heavy let down, the milk FLOWS! Then when it slows down she doesn't like to have to work for it and will usually just finish the feed. We have no rhythm to our days - I never know exactly when she's going to eat. Starting 2 days ago I began offerring her to eat even when she wasn't acting hungry - sometimes this necessitated using a bottle. At one point she was falling asleep and I decided to offer her the bottle and she drank 6oz! Normally I would've just let her fall asleep - she's not showing hunger signs.
Yesterday was the first day that I offerred a lot of expressed bottles (along with bf) and the kid ate like I've never seen. And then only woke once in the night (when I bf'ed and then offerred a bottle - which she drank about 3oz).
I don't know what to do...I'm so discouraged because I wanted this time to work. Oh, and I'm on 90mg domperidone. I don't really know what the road of bf'ing and supplementing looks like. I don't know if I can keep up with that (I have a very busy 2yo). I'm not interested in using a SNS - I just don't see it working for us....but maybe I shouldn't rule it out.
I feel terrible - like I've been starving her, like my breasts are deficient for some reason. I would rather formula feed then have her going hungry - but I'm not ready to let the bf'ing dream die. Help!


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## Greensleeves

P


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## TurboClaudia

sending you all hugs, mamas...

i remember it was so hard to trust my instincts and intuition when we were traversing our low weight gain & milk supply issues, but i tried and tried, and most of the time, i feel pretty good about the choices we made.

keep following your instincts, mamas, and be true to yourselves.

lots of love and hugs,
claudia


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## Perogi

My instincts are all out of whack on this issue. I do try to follow my instincts with much of my parenting but I can't figure out what to do in this situation. One minute I want to give up, the next minute I want to try harder, the next minute I want to just keep at it like we are and see what happens and then I want to cry.


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## aussiemum

Perogi- heaps of things came to mind as I was reading your post.

Quote:

latch issues, lazy nurser, cracked and bleeding - nipple shield, pump and bottle feed to allow healing, finally got exclusively bf'ing. She takes a bottle fine and a couple of times I've let dh bottle feed her. For quite some time I've found myself needing to supplement 1-2 4oz bottles of formula in the evening. Recently dd has been waking a lot all night long and fussing, not sleeping as well during the day, etc. But very frustrated at the breast (which, for this laid back babe means just giving up). I've also noticed a decrease in the number of wet diapers. I have a very heavy let down, the milk FLOWS! Then when it slows down she doesn't like to have to work for it and will usually just finish the feed. We have no rhythm to our days - I never know exactly when she's going to eat. Starting 2 days ago I began offerring her to eat even when she wasn't acting hungry - sometimes this necessitated using a bottle. At one point she was falling asleep and I decided to offer her the bottle and she drank 6oz! Normally I would've just let her fall asleep - she's not showing hunger signs.
First off, let me say that I know how incredibly difficult is to deal with low-supply/ breastfeeding issues & a 2 year old at the same time.







to both you & greensleves.... So what I'm about to say next might not sound like I am very sympathetic to that.... but I am, trust me. Perhaps you have heard all this before, so I apologise in advance if I only offer frustrating suggestions.... but this is what i'm thinking.

I think you need to work on building a rhythm, or routine, into your breastfeeding relationship. Not scheduled feeds, exactly, but a routine where you offer the breast every hour or so. When your dd gets frustrated when the flow slows down, swap her over to the other breast & pump off the rest of the milk in the first breast. (assuming you get milk when you pump. I got very little, but everybody is different) How long does it take for the full-flow that your bub likes to return after a nursing session? I'm thinking that you might need to offfer her the breast as soon as you think you'll have a good flow happening. I know this can be utterly exhausting....

I know you don't want your baby to go hungry, but, based on my personal experience, offering bottles during the day can really mess around with the breastfeeding relationship. I would try to save the supplemental bottles for as late in the day as you can. That way, if she takes 6 oz. from a bottle at 10 pm, then sleeps for 6 hours, then hopefully you'll have nice full breasts at 4 am to offer her.

regarding sleepy babies- searching my memory for tricks i used to try & keep them awake... I used a cool washcloth to rouse mine when they were sleeping at the breast. sometimes on the cheek, or on the tummy or back if they were really drowsy. I used to stroke under their chin to try & prod them to suck. ALso, sometimes getting up & walking into bright sunlight- any sort of sudden change in environment- can help rouse them. How easy do you find it to nurse in different positions? For me, I could lie down & nurse with the left breast (that was my 'good' breast, in terms of supply), but not the right one 'cuz the nipple just didn't seem to be in the correct spot when I tried it. So you may have to experiment.

I found that homemade play-dough was a great way to entertain my 2 yr. old whilst the baby nursed. We have a little table & chairs set, so my dd & I could sit together. I rolled logs one-handed, & she would squash them. Not a whole lot of mental stimulation there, but it worked for a while. Also, we read lots of books. And she watched a lot of videos.








:

I don't want my post to put pressure on you that you don't need right now-- so please do ignore it if it's no use to you, or you've already heard it all before.......









gotta run.... kids are biting at my ankles...... be kind to yourself, mama. I'll be thinking of you guys here....


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## turtlewomyn

I have been peeking into this thread because I have been having some hopefully temporary supply issues due to tongue tie and bad latch that are hopefully correcting themselves (ped still not happy with level of weight gain, but we have a couple of weeks before we have to go back there). I have several of those checks from the "evil" formula companies that I was saving because I did supplement for a while. I have several checks from enfamil and similac that I would like to give to a mama that needs to supplement with formula due to low supply issues (if you have to use formula, might as well save money, right?). Just PM me with your address and how many you can use, first come, first serve. I have 11 5$ coupons from Similac (expire in Feb/Mar) and 7 enfamil checks varying from3-6$, one is only for their gentlease formula (these expire 1/31/06).

By the way, I know this is too much information, but is a side effect of domperidone really bad flatulence? I have been taking it since Monday and have noticed a BIG difference. I saw that the original use for it was for intestinal problems, so I thought it might be attributed to that.


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## LeosMama

Good for you mama, getting through your supply issues, taking dom. It's always great to see a mama so dedicated.


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## indeospero

Hey mamas! It's great to find this thread! I am still working my way through the posts, but I wanted to introduce myself. I have low supply issues as the result of breast reduction surgery 6 years ago. My first baby is 5 1/2 months old now, and we've been supplementing with a LactAid (no bottles) since she was two weeks old. I take domperidone and fenugreek, both of which really help. We had a really difficult start, including nursing strikes, weight loss, over-sleepiness, and severe nipple damage, but we're doing great now. I can hardly believe how relatively easy things have become, considering how truly awful the beginning was! Our need to supplement has significantly decreased over time, and I'm hoping we can eliminate it entirely as dd begins to take solids. So that's us... looking forward to being a part of this tribe!


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## MarcyC

Welcome to our tribe! I wish you the best of luck in getting rid of the supplements! It can be done. I have a hormone imbalance and suffer from low-prolactin levels so we are long term supplementers, but I use an SNS. I have a lact-aid as well, but prefer the Medela SNS. Keep up the good work!


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
No worries. Here's the link.










Oh, you say "no worries." I love that Aussie expression. Thanks for the link!


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## Frigga

HI!







: Thought I'd introduce myself now as I may be popping in from time to time in the near future. I've nursed both my boys and I have a babe on the way I plan on nursing too. I always had problems keeping up with supply after 4 months of age, and I hope to be able to overcome that this time around!


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## Greensleeves

t


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## TurboClaudia

turtle: i wondered about the gas, too. i don't remember specifically thinking that the dom could have caused it, but i do remember having excessive gas for a period of time during our milk supply issue/low weight gain chapter.

welcome to all the new mamas! wish you werent' here...







:

~claudia


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## Greensleeves

T


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## aussiemum

my, this tribe just grows & grows! ANd whilst I'm sorry that low-supply happens, I am so glad that we can be here to support each other thru the tough times.

greensleves, I'm glad you found my pp helpful. One thing that I did notice when I re-read it-- it's going to be very difficult to pump from one breast, feed baby from the other, & roll playdough with a 2 year old at the same time.







: Really, that is just taking the multi-tasking thing too far. So probably, that technique is best used when the older child is asleep or intensely occupied (like with the TV).

...............

also, wanted to add that every mama who is going thru low-supply issues should try & trust her gut when it comes to knowing when she's had enough of the fight for a long-term breastfeeding relationship. As sad as it is, sometimes it hurts less to just let go & then focus on enjoying other aspects of your relationship with your child. kwim?


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## QueenOfTheMeadow

I'm not sure if this is where I should post this, but here goes. One of my sister's has low supply issues. both me and my older sister had no problems nursing and my mother is an IBCLC. So you can see where there might be som pressure to breast feed.

She really seems to want to just breastfeed and is very sad that she needs to supplement. The issue is she does not seem to want to do the things that would help increase her flow. She doesn't want to do cluster feeding, and wants to feed the baby on a schedule, doesn't want to allow the baby to fall asleep at the breast,or to snack etc. etc. So I'm not sure that she really wants to do it and even wants to try to get ther supply up, because she is not doing any of the things my mother has suggested to her.

I am wondering if this is becaise she is afraid to fail. She had problems with her first, but I'm wondering if it wasn't because she did the same things she is doing now. I am not sure how to help her or to just let her alone. She gets upset when anyone offers advice, but then cries that her milk supply is low. Please help. I want to help her, but don't know what to say. Do any of you have any advice or should I just let her cry and be supportive and not offer anymore advice? I know this is an incredibly tough issue to deal with and I just don't want ot make things harder for her.


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## mommyto3girls

I am hoping I can get some help here. I have always had great supply, but recently was in the hospital for 7 days and only able to nurse the baby once a day. I pumped 5 times a day but my supply has dropped. I am going to call my doc to see about getting Reglan prescribed, how much would I need to be taking? I was on it before for stomach issues and took it 4 times a day. Is that what I would do for supply issues?


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## MaryJaneLouise

Help! My domperidone from globaldrug.tv is late. Another mom on another list I am on said she got a nasty-gram from the FDA instead of her package in the mail. Someone else said they had trouble getting it from their pharmacy.

Should I just resign myself to running out of domperidone, and mother's milk?


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## MarcyC

race_kelly - this might not be a popular opinion, but I'd give your sister the freedom to fail. Go to her and ask directly, "do you really want to BF or do you feel pressured?" Tell her that if she feels pressured, it's okay to stop and give her the freedom/permission to do so. If she truly wants to, tell her all these things to try and quit making "excuses" not to at least try them. If she truly wants to bottlefeed, enlighten her to the concept of "bottlenursing" (do a google search for it). If she chooses bottle feeding, she can still co-sleep, sling. She does not have to get the baby on a schedule. She does not have to force the baby to "finish" a bottle to go longer between feedings. Tell her all about reading her baby's cues. If she's at her house, give her a quiet private place to feed (just because it's a bottle doesn't make it any less special). And take her water and snacks (just because she's bottle feeding doesn't make HER any less special). Just encourage her in whatever she does.

mommyto3girls - I was on Reglan. My doctor prescribed 30 mg./day (10 mg. tablets 3x/day). I had horrible side effects on it...it made me feel "drugged" and out of it. I didn't like it at all. I have much better results with domperidone....

which brings me to....

MaryJaneLouise - I think globaldrug has a toll free number. I'd call them. I have never had a problem getting my dom. I've never heard of anyone getting a letter from the FDA either (I was always afraid of ATF coming to my door, kwim?). I feel for you, though. It's hard enough being a low supply mom - then with Dom late on top of that....
Have you been eating oatmeal, taking fenugreek, and other lactogenic foods/herbs? Have you tried the Motherlove herbals? I had some increase with "More Milk Plus" and even better with "More Milk Special Blend." Those might help you for now. A regular pharmacy won't have dom, but see if you can find a "compounding" pharmacy in your area to make it for you. I think it's more expensive to do it that way than just to order it from globaldrug, but it may be worth it to you. You'll have to convince your dr. to write a prescription...I called around here and we have a compounding pharmacy even here that is willing to make it. If all else fails, you could always get a prescription for Reglan.








Hope everyone is having a good day --- magic milk vibes to all!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*

Have you been eating oatmeal, taking fenugreek, and other lactogenic foods/herbs? Have you tried the Motherlove herbals? I had some increase with "More Milk Plus" and even better with "More Milk Special Blend." Those might help you for now. A regular pharmacy won't have dom, but see if you can find a "compounding" pharmacy in your area to make it for you. I think it's more expensive to do it that way than just to order it from globaldrug, but it may be worth it to you. You'll have to convince your dr. to write a prescription...I called around here and we have a compounding pharmacy even here that is willing to make it. If all else fails, you could always get a prescription for Reglan.








Hope everyone is having a good day --- magic milk vibes to all!


Yes! I'm on both MMP + Dom and TM Mother's Milk tea, and fenugreek seeds made into a tea, and lots of whole grain rice / sorghum / teff / corn (I'm gluten intolerant too







)







I'm prone to depression and that "drugged out" feeling too, so am very leary of the Reglan


----------



## Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *race_kelly*
I'm not sure if this is where I should post this, but here goes. One of my sister's has low supply issues. both me and my older sister had no problems nursing and my mother is an IBCLC. So you can see where there might be som pressure to breast feed.

She really seems to want to just breastfeed and is very sad that she needs to supplement. The issue is she does not seem to want to do the things that would help increase her flow. She doesn't want to do cluster feeding, and wants to feed the baby on a schedule, doesn't want to allow the baby to fall asleep at the breast,or to snack etc. etc. So I'm not sure that she really wants to do it and even wants to try to get ther supply up, because she is not doing any of the things my mother has suggested to her.

I am wondering if this is becaise she is afraid to fail. She had problems with her first, but I'm wondering if it wasn't because she did the same things she is doing now. I am not sure how to help her or to just let her alone. She gets upset when anyone offers advice, but then cries that her milk supply is low. Please help. I want to help her, but don't know what to say. Do any of you have any advice or should I just let her cry and be supportive and not offer anymore advice? I know this is an incredibly tough issue to deal with and I just don't want ot make things harder for her.

how old is the baby? Could she be depressed and just feel very overwelmed?


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## timneh_mom

I asked this at the unable to BF tribe, and would like to ask it here... what would you have found, or what did you find the most helpful as far as support from either an LLL leader or a LC? I am working on LLL leadership right now and am an RN as well, so if I like it, I may try to become a LC someday. I just want to be able to help moms as best I can... thank you!


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## MarcyC

Probably the most helpful thing to me was understanding. In my case, I had already tried co-sleeping, nursing on demand rather than schedule, and daily weight checks. I was eating lactogenic foods, taking herbs and doing everything I could think of. I was all about the "supply and demand" theory so I nursed her 24/7. Every 48 hours or so I break down from exhaustion and let DH give her a bottle and sleep 3-4 hours.

My LLL leader here was sooo compassionate. I talked with her on the phone several times before attending my first meeting. It wasn't until she actually saw DD in person that she was really worried. She took me outside and privately said I needed to offer more bottles and be "aggressive" with supplementing. She told me she'd work with me to get/keep DD at the breast but the most important thing at that point was to "feed the baby!"

At first I nursed first and then offered a bottle, but the more I talked through things with my leader the more committed I became. I now use an SNS. I get the stimulation needed, she gets full (ie, equating breast with satisfaction), no more need to pump since I'm getting direct stimulation from her. It's great. (BTW, as I'm typing she's been asleep 9 hours and I'm FULL and leaking...







)

I would say gentle support and understanding is the best thing to give!


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## LeosMama

:

I found that my LLLL (who was a dear friend from my childhood, the SIL of my best friend) was so compassionate and supportive and this kept me going through all of my troubles. She had a good grip on ideas and techniques and knew what I should try next.

But she and the LC's (I saw two) and the pediatrician and the OB/GYN had the same problem - no one believed me. No one believed there was anything wrong. When it hurt, I was patted on the head "Oh, he's on correctly, it shouldn't hurt." When my milk dried up "Oh, you're only 4 weeks PP, your milk is fine, your breasts just get softer after awhile." "Oh, if it hurts, take him off and put him back on again." "Thrush should be all better by now, you're just being sensitive."

So while they were all supportive and loving, none of them ever looked deeper. Until one day I was sobbing. The thrush was so painful, the suckling was so painful and the LC finally asked me for a description. When I said he was flipping the nipple and she looked at how mashed and creased it was, she finally evaluated his suck and realized he needed therapy. This took three weeks of LC's and LLLL help and screaming agony.
My milk was gone and I had to pump around the clock to get it back.

The best person was my speech language pathologist who actually fixed the baby's suckle. But this didn't get completed the first time b/c we had to delay due to the thrush, then the dr. didn't want to let us go back and once again the LC and LLLL weren't listening when I said he was still having problems, so we didn't get to go back to the SLP until 4.5 months (after me yelling and being a b*tch).

Then it got fixed all the way and I just had to wean him off the bottles and back onto the breast. Finally at two weeks shy of 6 months we were EBF!

Wow, I finally got to tell my story here.

Thanks.

That felt good.

My point is that LC's, LLLL, and SLP's all have their place and they can all give bad/blind advice. You have to be compassionate and insightful for each client no matter which of those you are. You have to do some basic things to catch all the problems with mama and baby. Check the frenulum, check the suck, check the latch, check for thrush, check for oral deformations (cleft palate, etc), check for milk volume.

Alright, I'm done lecturing. You know all of this.









-Lindsay


----------



## Victorian

I think that having breastfeeding problems yourself helps (sorry







)

It is easy to write on a piece of paper to nurse 8-12 times a day, pump 8, supplement between feeds, etc. but It is so completely overwelming to do. Just having a person say "this really, really sucks and it is hard and you will be overwelmed and throw your pump across the room and want to give up, but here is why you should do it ___________" is a big help.

V.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom*
I asked this at the unable to BF tribe, and would like to ask it here... what would you have found, or what did you find the most helpful as far as support from either an LLL leader or a LC? I am working on LLL leadership right now and am an RN as well, so if I like it, I may try to become a LC someday. I just want to be able to help moms as best I can... thank you!









I would say to go in with an attitude that it really IS POSSIBLE to be low / no supply. That it's not JUST a matter of "not trying hard enough." That there really are some medical / physiological reasons why bfing supply can be low. That the "never run out" isn't true for EVERYONE.

I was talking with a LLL once, that I rent my pump from. She was asking what my schedule was in pumping, feeding, etc. I explained how what I could pump one day was fed in daycare the next day. Except on Friday, when I fed all I could directly Saturday and Sunday (my days off), then fed them Friday's EBM why I ran out "in person." She got all upset, saying, You should save your Friday's milk for Monday's daycare. After all, you "never run out."








Did she not hear WHAT I HAD BEEN SAYING!!!!! I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MILK TO FEED MY TWINS!!!! DON'T YOU GET IT!!!!

Sorry to vent.


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## JenInMpls

Lindsay - way to vent!

Hm... most helpful. People who were not extreme on either end. The IBCLC I saw in the hospital seemed very unconcerned about my worries; a lot of it got written off to post-traumatic-birth blues... "your body is still healing, just supplement with formula for a week or so and your milk will come in." Followed by "Well, some women who have wide-set breasts don't make enough milk." With no explanation or follow-up to that statement! Both she and nurses kept asking me about my breasts. Are they misformed? Are the irregular somehow? How do they feel? Does it feel like your milk has come in? Are you feeling your milk let down? I wanted to stand up and yell "How the *#$! should I know!? I've just been through a birth that turned out to be the most disappointing, debilitating thing in my life, this is my first child, I have no clue! You tell me!" - I didn't shout, of course, but at times I wish I had, it probably would have been very cathartic. So... their laissez-faire attitude about my milk coming in was not helpful, and they did not want to hear my negative attitude toward formula supplementation.

The home-care nurse said we were doing everything right, and my friend, a former LLLL, said so too - she is one of those every-woman-can-exclusively-breastfeed-if-given-the-right-support-and-if-she-tries-hard-enough people - and declared that the IBCLC in the hospital "should be shot". These people were on the other end of the spectrum - the keep on nursing all the time and it will eventually work set - and were equally of little help to me in the long run.

The most understanding professional I talked to was our family physician who actually felt around in Tristan's mouth, watched him nursing and listened for him to swallow and determined that he wasn't swallowing more often than ever 10-15 sucks and that I seemed to have a lack of milk. She described what let-down feels like, acknowledged my desire to breastfeed T but said that I should also be able to do things other than nurse - like put him down for more than 5-10 minutes without him crying in hunger, or go to the bathroom without him at the breast while I'm peeing. She talked about herbs with me (as did my doula, who was also super-supportive) and suggested I buy an SNS. She gave me supplementing kits. She even went against her holistic grain and prescribed me Domperidone and told me where the compounding pharmacy was. She understood how heartbroken I was. She stated that he obviously was getting his emotional and attachment needs met. She asked me if I had any lactating friends who might give me their milk.

To me what was most meaningful was that she handled me very gently as she could see how important breastfeeding was to me and that it was an extremely great disappointment to me to have to feed him formula. She did not dismiss my disappointment, saying "Oh, it's no big deal, there are tons of kids who have grown up healthy on formula". (That's like all the people who say to you "Oh, you have a healthy baby, and that's all that really matters" after you have a c-section when you were trying for a natural birth. Yeah thanks.







: ) It was a big deal. It is a big deal. She acknowledged that. She still does and thinks it's great that we're still nursing.

Also helpful: a mom at the school where I teach (am on leave) heard that I was having milk-supply issues and, in addition to all of the advice that she had as a mom nursing a kindergartner, asked, "I have a recipe for homemade formula that's really good and healthy, do you want a copy?" - left it open to me, it felt supportive, non-judgemental and non-militant.

I think the most essential thing for people who work with breastfeeding moms is to realize that it is not as effortless as some make it out to be, and to handle every mom-baby pair on an individual basis, starting from a neutral ground and making no assumptions about how it "should" go, merely having the end goal to be both mom and baby having a nurturing, satisfying nursing relationship.

I often have wondered if the lack of discussion and openness about low supply is the pendulum having swung to the opposite side from the bottle/formula-feeding craze of the 70s - the pro-bf'ers who don't even want to bring it up lest new mothers latch onto (ha ha, good pun, Jen!) the fact that there is a possibility that they may not be able to breastfeed and so don't even bother to try.

OK... long post. i am done now. But I, too, must admit that it feels good to say all this and get it out.








jen


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## TurboClaudia

i have much to say on the topic of what was most helpful, but my little man is being very demanding this morning and not even elmo's world on sesame street is providing enough entertainment to distract him from me for the few minutes i would need... :crazy

i agree with so much of what was said already and will add my own experiences when i have some quiet time during nap later today.

~claudia


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
I think that having breastfeeding problems yourself helps (sorry







)

It is easy to write on a piece of paper to nurse 8-12 times a day, pump 8, supplement between feeds, etc. but It is so completely overwelming to do. Just having a person say "this really, really sucks and it is hard and you will be overwelmed and throw your pump across the room and want to give up, but here is why you should do it ___________" is a big help.

V.









:


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
I often have wondered if the lack of discussion and openness about low supply is the pendulum having swung to the opposite side from the bottle/formula-feeding craze of the 70s - the pro-bf'ers who don't even want to bring it up lest new mothers latch onto (ha ha, good pun, Jen!) the fact that there is a possibility that they may not be able to breastfeed and so don't even bother to try.

OK... long post. i am done now. But I, too, must admit that it feels good to say all this and get it out.








jen


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## BookGoddess

Can I join?

I've had low milk supply issues right from the start. DD had a very traumatic birth ( a whole other story in itself!). Her first 3 days were spent in the NICU where they gave her formula. Exclusively bf her for 6 months was my dream but it didn't pan out the way I planned it in my head. DD had a poor latch. I worked with the LC at the hospital as much as I could. I have to say it's weird to having a strange woman pinching and touching your breast.







The LC had me pump every two hours (no fun at all esp at night when I was dead tired), take fenugreek (not much help), milk thistle (again not much help), drink a ton of water daily ( no help). I tried Mother's Milk and various other teas that were *supposed* to increase lactation. None of these made a big difference as far as I could tell. I felt like a huge failure. I know that some say bf moms don't get a lot of support but where I am it seems everyone is incredibly pro-bf. And if you can't do it for some reason then you feel like a failure. Finally, I was told about domperidom from someone else ( at first I thought she said drink Dom Perignon







) and that HAS made a difference though I never had leaky breasts or engorgement like mamas who bf exclusively. It's funny to say it but I was looking forward to those things when I was pregnant. Long story short is that I'm back at work, a place where pumping is next to impossible because there aren't any private rooms. I would have to go to the bathroom in the next building. There's no bathroom in our building. I refuse to pump in a stinky bathroom. The other option is to go to the parking lot and pump in my car but it's incredibly hot so that's out too. *sigh* So, I pump at home before and after work so that I can give what bm I can to DD. And we do give formula as well. I used to envy people like my mom who exclusively bf me for months and months. It took me a while to get over what I perceived as disapproving looks from others when they heard how we feed DD. But I've learned to make peace with my situation. The important thing is DD is healthy, active, normal, growing, and happy.


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## MarcyC

BookGoddess - I think you're doing great! You're pumping all you can, when you can and getting your babe every precious drop of breastmilk you can provide. Way to go, awesome mama!









Have you seen the Lansinoh bottles that say "Mommy's Milk" on them? I found these on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7723055174

I'd get some of those and take those when out and about. That way everyone will assume it's your milk in there, kwim? Whether it is or isn't is none of their business but let them assume...

Remember, that any breastmilk is better than none at all. You keep up your great work!!!


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## Barbee

i'm so glad to find this thread! my son is three weeks old and we've been going through a pretty rough time. his birth was perfect. he was born at home, pink and gorgeous. my trauma was with my placenta that wouldn't deliver. long story short, i ended up in the hospital, had the placenta manually extracted before a sedative kicked in, and lost two-thirds of my blood. i also have flat nipples and when trying to breastfeed on his second day, the nurse offered me a nipple shield. i accepted it before knowing any better. now, i have low milk supply and ds won't latch on without the shield. i came out of the hospital with a terrible fear of pain, and now that my nipples don't hurt as much, i'm terrified to retrain him without the shield. i know i should, but i'm seriously terrified. so, that's our story. fenugreek seems to be helping, but i would love to get rid of the shield. any advice is greatly appreciated!


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## JenInMpls

barbee - my friend's daughter would not nurse without the shield for months. A LC advised her to use it and then to slowly trim it away with a scissor until there was nothing left. Keep pushing those good herbs - try Motherlove More Milk perhaps, it has a lot combined in one - and nurse like crazy. My friend ended up wandering around topless with her dd in a sling for a couple of weeks. Finally in the end she decided that she was more stubborn than her daughter (who wouldn't nurse without the shield) and they both learned how to nurse without the shield by doing the cutting away thing. She's 15 mos now and still nursing - without the shield







good luck - jen


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## MarcyC

Hi everyone! How did Thanksgiving go? Were you able to avoid sage? If you did indulge in the stuffing or the sage-rubbed turkey, how's your supply?


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## EStreetMama

OK...I'm down to drops!!! Should I just keep pumping?


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## TurboClaudia

adrienne: is owen going to breast at all now? do you mean that when you are pumping, you are just getting drops?







or do you mean something else? as for should you keep pumping or choose to stop pumping, that is such a personal decision. if you are at the point where trying to pump is creating more stress in your life and you are not able to enjoy owen being who he is and growing into who he will someday be, i think the choice to stop pumping is worth considering.

i remember feeling that stress and wondering if i should just give up the pumping, supplementing, etc. cycle and just give marek alternative milks in a bottle after i nursed him. i would always give myself a day or two to consider the choice and during that time, i remember feeling like i really could go on the way we were and give it one more day or one more week or whatever. it was hard, though. and i have another mama friend here in the portland area who has twins and had supply issues with her older child and then had supply issues with the twins. they were born early, too, and not successful at nursing at the breast. it was so hard for her to come to her choice, but after 5+ weeks of trying to manage a 3 year old, twin newborns, pumping and trying to increase her supply, she realized that she truly felt like she had made the best possible effort at giving her twins mama's milk and that pumping and working to increase her supply was now affecting her relationship with all her children negatively. she has been very active in our LLL group out here in hillsboro and definitely knows the benefits of mama's milk, and she struggled with her choice but definitely chose it and did not let a "decision" just happen.

please know that whatever you choose to feed owen, you are the best mama for your baby owen.







you may not believe that all the time (i know people said that to me at times and i certainly didn't feel that way) but i'm just reminding you.

love to you all,
claudia


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## Barbee

i managed to avoid the sage this year. my supply seems to be the same. thank you for the advice about the shield. i'll let youu know how it goes. it seems like i've developed a rash on my feet. could it be from the fenugreek?


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## EStreetMama

(pak)

Clarification: Just getting a few drops when pumping.He hasn't taken the breast in weeks.

Thanks for the support, Claudia. I "quit" every day and then just keep going anyway. I am starting to feel that pumping is taking time from Owen. He wants to sit up all the time now, and it's hard to keep him positioned and occupied since he can't sit up himself or use his hands to hold toys yet.

I think the best thing to do is put the decision on hold for 1-2 days while I drink extra water and pray for milk. Maybe the supply will come up just enough to keep me going. I'm following ALL the other ideas to increase milk, so I don't know what else to do when it the supply gets down to just drops. Has anyone else been there and gotten the supply back up? I guess if the milk stops, then that's it, right?

How do people re-lactate though? Hmmm...

I'm just thinking out loud here, sorry. I think I'll keep pumping but start working on permission for myself to stop if we need to. I've been putting this off for 14 weeks and I'm probably going to have to have a darn good cry over it before moving on.


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## ferretfan

hello

i had some supply difficulties at the beginning (and a great deal of discomfort) but at around the 2 month mark, things seemed to be going great. only yesterday i was thinking how lucky i was to have breasts leaking all down my legs on the way to the shower









what with thanksgiving dinner (and then leftovers and more leftovers) i think i may have given myself 'sage-poisoning'. last night i noticed that my breasts werent full atall after 5hrs, and again after another 4hrs. all day today i have felt like she was needing more, and she's been latched on literally all day (ouch) i did refrain from supplemental bottle feeding her though, i dont want to go down that path again.

i have been drinking lots today and taken 9 fenugreeks (in doses of three). have i done any damage that i cant fix?

any advice would be very much appreciated.


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## Victorian

Hi ferretfan. Sorry to hear about your troubles







I don't know much about Sage, but had a question about your post...was the 5 hours during the day? Is that normal for your baby during the day or is she nursing less? 5 hours seems like a long stretch to me, maybe you could offer the breast more often?

Adrienne - sorry to hear that you are down to drops. Remember the mantra "I am a nursing mother and I define my own success". I quit at least a 1000 times, including once when I threw the pump across the room. Whatever you choose, you are a success because you did your very best







s.

V.


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## MarcyC

Oh yes, I've decided to quit many times. I never go through with it.


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## ikesmom

Hi, I just noticed my supply drop a few days ago. My ds is almost 4 mo old and has really bad allergies. I am waiting for an appt with ped dermatologist and the regular ped put us on allumentium formula. After 3 days of not nursing and pumping with a Avent and a Lactina my supply dropped. I saw that he was doing better allergy wise and started nursing on thanksgiving. I have been eliminating foods that are triggers and wheat is the last one. I haven't eaten any for 1 week now but he is flaring all over with eczema. My dh never really wanted us to breastfeed because it was to inconvienent but when my dh filled out into a chubby he was proud. Now i have to build up my supply again if i can. I have read all the posts and my heart goes out to all of you. Im glad I found someone to listen too!







:


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## ferretfan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
Hi ferretfan. Sorry to hear about your troubles







I don't know much about Sage, but had a question about your post...was the 5 hours during the day? Is that normal for your baby during the day or is she nursing less? 5 hours seems like a long stretch to me, maybe you could offer the breast more often?

V.

5 hours was at night, followed by 4 hours was after the 2 am feed.

still sucking down those fenugreeks......................


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## MarcyC

Just a thought - we may not get our own sub-forum, but maybe they'll make this a sticky. We can hope...


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## aussiemum

Actually, more & more I really think that low-supply needs to have its own subforum. People's issues & difficulties get buried in this thread, & some of them never get really properly answered. (how's the sage poisoning going, btw, ferrettfan? Is the fenugreek kicking in yet?) See what I mean? That issue really needs to be it's own thread, because I am sure there must be other mothers out there who are wondering about the same thing. They're not reading about it because it is buried in this thread.

hmmmmm...... I think perhaps we should approach the mods of this forum first. ANybody here totally against the idea of asking the mods to think aobut creating a sub-forum within breastfeeding? 'cuz if not, I'm going to put my request forward to trishshack & mamao'two. We can always ask....


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## MarcyC

I agree! I think we should ask!!


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## ferretfan

no, dont think fenugreek working yet. breasts still feel very un-full. baby getting quite mad at me









i agree on the whole subforum idea, would it help if we each contacted the mods individually?


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

I am totally into a sub forum in breastfeeding....I think it is the best way to address our issues with bf...

Thank you for bringing this up!!!


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

I just noticed that the thread has been moved!!!!

YAHOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS!!!!!


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## Barbee

i threw the nipple shield away and spent 24 hours teaching ds how to latch properly. now my nipples are sore again, but he's latching fine. also, i made the mistake of having coffee which messed up my supply today. i've already supplemented because ds was getting really mad at my breasts. it breaks my heart to know he's hungry. so, note to self... "no coffee!"


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## aussiemum

posting & running at the moment, but just wanted to say that I think the more members that contact the mods, the better. I'll try & get some time to do a count of how many different people have used this thread as a source of info/support- I reckon it's got to be at least a hundred. If someone else gets to it before me (







) can you please post it here too?

HaveWool~WillFelt, what do you mean the thread's been moved? It' still in breastfeeding, right?

okay, cheeky 5 year old ishassling me....


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## JenInMpls

Barbee, whoopee! Way to go! Continued good luck!


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## EStreetMama

Sad to announce that my milk is all gone. We have been down to just drops for a week now and my baby needs me so I can't justify pumping when he wants to be held and cared for.




















































Best wishes to you all and I'll see you in the other (happier) forums!


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## Vixxen

I'm sorry your milk is gone Adrienne... I know how sad that can be.. Just know that you are a great mama to your baby=)


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## Barbee

adrienne-i'm so sorry you're going through this. you must feel terrible but remember that you did all you could do and you should be proud of yourself for that.


----------



## Ruthla

I'm just popping in to say that I'm inspired by all of you on this thread! Adrienne- this includes you! I don't know if I could have kept up pumping as long as you did when you were only getting drops.

Keep up the good work mamas.


----------



## littlehawksmom

Hello. Dropping in again..
My babe has been gaining!







, but now that mil is gone, I have only been pumping one or two times a day, and I can tell my supply is going down again. I know it only takes 10 minutes (or for me, 5 minutes and I only get 1 ounce total), but it seems to really mess up the rhythm of my day (demanding 2 yo, trying to get enough calories in me, etc..). I must CHANGE the rhythm of my day. Problem is, dh (and others) don't believe me that I have low supply because my breasts leak. I think they leak and then there isn't much left for baby! She takes 10-12 or so swallows and that is it, on each side. She nurses at least every hour all day, except when she naps and even then she wakes up to nurse.







Well, we are managing and she is gaining, so all's well, I guess.
Question-someone said they had coffee and it screwed up their supply. I had low supply with ds and didn't drink coffee. I have low supply with dd and drink one cup a day (I really, really want to keep having it!). Anyway, what are other foods that decrease supply. I know sage, parsley, anything else?
Thanks.


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## deymm

I have heard that there are special breast shells you can wear that will collect your leaks.


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## aussiemum

Adrienne....









I remember how sad I was too....... and I am so sorry this has happened to you.









Please, please don't feel like you have to leave this thread tho, or a sub-forum, if we ever get one. We need advice & support here from mamas like you who have travelled the hard road of low supply.....


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## aussiemum

Well, I just finished the member count on this thread. I got 79. That's 79 mamas who we all have collectively helped work through low-supply issues in one way or another. And I think we should all be proud of the support we have given each other.

I'll compose a pm to the mods tomorrow to ask for our own sub-forum. (too tired now!) Please, if anybody else feels like we should push for a subforum, please pm them too....


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## Nadia

Popping in to say I had low milk supply issues with my second, after having abundance with my first. Turned out to be (two years LATER!) a hypothyroid problem. In retrospect - D'oh! Why didn't my CNM check for that?! I had all the symptoms, and could have saved myself so much frustration with non-stop pumping and struggling. So if anyone is having issues with milk supply after having followed all the conventional advice on frequency of nursing, pumping while nursing, herbs, etc, and you may have a weight problem, check your thyroid levels! That's all. Off my soapbox now


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## MrsMoe

*pokes head in to say hi*

I'm currently pumping for all of our newborn's needs (she is a bit over 2 weeks) due to a breast reduction I had at 19. I don't have normal let downs, and I am jealous of mother's who have milk that actually sprays instead of drizzling out. *sigh*

Unless I use VERY firm/hard massage (it has sorta hurt in order to work) on my ducts with my pump set on max/high, or otherwise the milk won't come out. I think also her suck is not strong enough yet -and- her latch is poor because I have _*whisper*_ huge swollen nipples. The nurse, lacatation consultant, and my doula think that my large nipples are a large part of the problem for my baby and until the swelling goes down and she is older/bigger, her latch will continue to be very poor. Since the pump RIPS at my nipples, I'm not sure hte swelling will eVER go down.









I'm currently pumping about 80% of her needs, which is quite high for a breast reduction, so that is good news. I give her her forumla at night (I figure it's the best time because this way she sleeps for longer stretches,) and breastmilk only during the day. I pump at night faithfully every 3/4 hours, and during the day I pump every 2/3 hours, been taking fenugreek, but will not be taking DPD. I honestly get burned out sometimes, pumping and all, I feel like a dairy cow, it all seems so mechanical... _*shrug*_

I do hope as her supply needs increase, I will be able to produce more milk, which I understand can be an issue for breast reduction women.


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## terrlk

I am glad to have found this site. I just joined after seeing a link from babycenter. I too have had low milk supply, I only get 5ml when I pump and my son is 1 month old. I have been taking fenugreek since day 5 postpartum, just switched yesterday to a tincture of fenugreek, fennel and blessed thistle. Also tried reglan and am now on domperidone for about a week and a half and am up to 40mg 4 times a day. Also I drink mothers milk tea. I put son to breast sometimes and then he gets bottle after and then I pump or I just pump and do bottle. I don't know what else to do, I had my thyroid tested and blood count done. He was born c-section but it seems like all this should have atleast made an improvement. Any other ideas of what to try? I use a double pump, drink lots of fluids. I so very want this to work and am trying so hard not to get discouraged that Ds gets mostly formula.


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## afishwithabike

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adrienne*
Sad to announce that my milk is all gone. We have been down to just drops for a week now and my baby needs me so I can't justify pumping when he wants to be held and cared for.




















































Best wishes to you all and I'll see you in the other (happier) forums!


I hope you don't feel discouraged. You did it for as long as you could. The fact that you did it at all sets you apart from a lot of people in the world. I went through the same thing with both DC. #1 nursed for 4 mo and #2 for 3 mo. I did pumping, feeding every half hour, and every suppliment known to increase production you can think of. It does, in my opinion, give you a close bond with your children when you have to fight for them to keep them bf. Good job and best of luck.


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## Barbee

i have two questions. first, except for coffee and sage, what other foods decrease your supply? and second, how many swallows should ds be getting per feeding? he swallows about every 2nd suck until the evening when my milk supply seems to slow way down. also, i'm trying a new form of fenugreek and was wondering if anyone has had experience with it. on the recommendation of the specialist at my health food store, i bought the fenugreek seeds. apparently you put a teaspoon in water for about a day until they start to sprout and then you eat them. she said it was better than even the tincture. anyone try this?


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## MarcyC

The author of Mother-Food said that bananas, chocolate and avocado seemed to have negative effects on her supply.

I've never heard of using the fenugreek seeds. I think the capsules I take are fenugreek seed capsules, though. I really don't know.


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## MrsMoe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbee*
i have two questions. first, except for coffee and sage, what other foods decrease your supply? and second, how many swallows should ds be getting per feeding? he swallows about every 2nd suck until the evening when my milk supply seems to slow way down. also, i'm trying a new form of fenugreek and was wondering if anyone has had experience with it. on the recommendation of the specialist at my health food store, i bought the fenugreek seeds. apparently you put a teaspoon in water for about a day until they start to sprout and then you eat them. she said it was better than even the tincture. anyone try this?

Things that can decrease supply:

1. Low Thyroid levels
2. Cold/Allergy Medications (this includes Antihistamines and other medications)
3. Mint
4. Sage
5. Cabbage leaves when applied to the breast
6. Alcohol
7. Hormonal Birth Control/Contraceptives
8. Menstruation
9. Stress/Fatigue/Sleep deprivation
10. Dehydration (don't forget to drink enough water!)
11. Not nursing often enough/over supplimentation
12. Parsley


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## Barbee

oh no!!! not CHOCOLATE!!! i just had my last chocolate binge tonight. i'm so going to remind hunter of this when he's a teenager!!! "i gave up CHOCOLATE for you young man!" anything for my boy though.


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## aussiemum

Still haven't sent a pm to the mods yet!!







: ANybody else?? But terrlk's post caught my eye, & a few thoughts came up.

Quote:

I put son to breast sometimes and then he gets bottle after and then I pump or I just pump and do bottle. I don't know what else to do, I had my thyroid tested and blood count done. He was born c-section but it seems like all this should have atleast made an improvement. Any other ideas of what to try?
Unless you're dealing with lingering trauma from a c-sec birth, my understanding is that pressure on the incision is one of the main reasons bf'ing is more difficult after a c-sec, also maybe some anethesia issues, but these things should resolve by 4 weeks, generally. I haven't had a c-sec birth, so I can't give any specific anecdotes, but I'm sure there are mamas here on this thread who can give you better info than that.....









Now, for something I do know a little about....







How long do you put your ds to the breast before you give the bottle? How many hours of the day & night do you reckon he is at the breast? Also, is it possible to pump one breast & nurse him at the other, then switch over after say, half an hour or so? I had a hand pump (Avent), which was useful as I too could only extract small amounts. That way I could stick the whole thing in the fridge when I wasn't using it, & pull it out when I was ready to try pumping again. Even tho you have a double pump, I think that baby's sucking action at the breast is going to be way more efficient at stimulating you & extracting milk.... usually- now ignore that info if you know your situation is different! I would always offer the breast before the bottle every time (I know there will always be times when this is just utterly impossible, but in general)- have you tried breast compression whilst nursing? I also would sometimes nurse with my ds lying on the ground, with me hovering on hands & knees with my breast above him to allow gravity to help the breast milk flow. You can also semi-squat on a low bed or stool & hold bub lower than the breast & get the same effect. Have you talked to an LC to check positioning of mouth on the breast & such? When your ds is nursing, does it feel comfortable? Do you feel a let-down?

Sorry to bombard you with some many questions... just trying to brainstorm some ideas that may help you out.....

btw, welcome to our little tribe...


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrlk*
Also I drink mothers milk tea. I put son to breast sometimes and then he gets bottle after .

An idea...don't always give him the bottle afterwards. If he knows a bottle will always come after, he might get slow or lazy at the breast because he knows the easier method will come soon. So you might want to mix it up a little. Give breast, wait and then give bottle a bit later. Or give a little bit via bottle first and then breast and then sometimes don't give a bottle. This was suggested to me by an IBCLC, and we've never had problems (knock on wood) with the baby refusing the breast.

Also the Avent bottles with slow flow nipples worked well for us. No nipple confusion or problems for us...

good luck!


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adrienne*
Sad to announce that my milk is all gone. We have been down to just drops for a week now and my baby needs me so I can't justify pumping when he wants to be held and cared for.




















































Best wishes to you all and I'll see you in the other (happier) forums!


Dear Adrienne--

I salute you and congratulate you for working so long and so hard on your bfing issues. All of us here know how awful and heartbreaking it is to have these problems. I send you lots of hugs and love. Your little one still got a lot of benefit from what you were able to provide.

--hh


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## MarcyC

On giving a bottle - when DD was very little the ped. suggested I nurse one side for about 15-20 min. Then offer a 2 oz. bottle, then offer the 2nd side.

Even with various bottles - Avent, Dr. Brown's, Playtex, etc... - DD seemed to get nipple confusion (preference) so at 3 mo. I decided to go totally w/ the SNS.

Another thing that can hurt supply is soy. Soy increases estrogen and estrogen suppresses prolactin. So all that soy milk and soy yogurt you thought was good for you......not if your milk supply is low.


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## terrlk

Some answers to some of the questions I have gotten: I do use compression and my latch seems to be good, not painful and I have see 2 lactation consultants and talk to one on the phone alot. The problem with putting DS to breast even if he is willing to be on for even 10 minutes is that after there is no milk he just gums it, with having such a small amount he just doesn't keep working at it no matter what I do and if I don't give him a bottle after then he isn't even getting an ounce of food and he usually eats 3 ounces every 2-3 hours so skipping the bottle at a feeding doesn't seem an option. I will try doing some formula first then go to breast so maybe he will be a little more patient at times. I don't feel a let down since there is such a small amount of milk but do see that it changes from light colored to darker thicker milk at the end. Thank you for all the help and suggestions.


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## Mommy2Jackson

Hi,
I am new to this fourm, mom to a ds Jackson who is 5 months old. Since he was about 1 1/2 or so I have battled low supply. Have been working with a LC and tried Fenugreek, Blessed Thissle, Goats Rue, and Relgan. Goats Rue is what I am currently taking and helps slightly. The reglan my body couldn't handle. We have tried pumping in addition to bfing. Although he nurses so much it's getting hard to find the time and energy to pump. It's been very hard on me emotionally as I feel bad for not being able to give him enough bm. Everything we try and nothing seems to help. After this long I really try to not let it bother me and just nurse and give some formula if I have to. I have told myself I am doing the best I can and that's all I can do. However I am feeling in a slump and everything is getting to me. Jackson has also been a very colicky baby and is better but still very demanding and will only let me hold him, feed him, or put him to sleep.

I have ordered dompridone from New Zeland. I ordered it 2 1/2 weeks ago and have not yet recieved yet (guessing it is lost). They won't send another bottle for another week then I have to wait at least another week. From what I hear I do have a little hope. I just hope it will get here someday soon!

Just wanted to introduce myself. I would love to hear from other mom's who have fought this and am up for any advice.

Thanks


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## MarcyC

Hi Mommy2Jackson! Welcome!

Have you tried the motherlove herbals? Their More Milk Special Blend is a blend of herbs and Goat's Rue. I've seen increase with that. Don't be discouraged about your dom. There is one site in particular that will re-ship w/o charging, I believe. Also, sometimes shipments get held up entering the US, but then are released so that the recipient ends up getting both the original shipment AND the replacement shipment. I've never had a problem receiving shipments so I don't know how it all works.

Have you tried breast compressions to improve flow? Have you tried an SNS or lact-aid system. I swear by the SNS. I own 4 of them (3 regular and 1 starter) and if we have any more kids I'm sure I'll use it from day one.

Have you been to your doctor for bloodwork to check for any hormone imbalances - thyroid, PCOS, estrogen & prolactin levels. Those are things to get checked out.

Hang in there! We're all in this together.


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## Quirky

Mommy2Jackson, definitely don't give up on the domperidone - it can take at least 3 weeks.

In addition to the great ideas Marcy gave you, have you had his latch/suck evaluated by a speech therapist or occupational therapist? I think there have been some good posts on this thread or in this forum by moms who have had a lot of success with getting the latch retrained to be more efficient.


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## MarcyC

I've emailed one of the moderators. She was going to forward my request to Cynthia M. I really think MDC could stand out among the parenting boards if they devoted a sub-forum to this topic.


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## aussiemum

Marcy, did the mods seem sympathetic to creating a new sub-forum? I know there is a breast feeding support sub-forum, but I'm not sure that's a safe enough place for a lot of low-supply mums to post. I know when we moved out of FYT, there was concern that we would be open to 'attack', for lack of a better term. However, I think right now the need to reach as many low supply mamas as possible outweighs that concern.... Victorian, are you hanging around right now? This is your thread originally, any thoughts on this matter?

In the past when I've had reason to be in contact with Cynthia, I've found her to be very open-minded & reasonable, so hopefully she'll see why we want to have a 'breastmilk supply issues' sub-forum opened.... Peggy O is the woman we've gotta convince, I reckon!







Not that I think she is any less open-minded, of course, but she is the keeper of the flame, so to speak....

I think it's time for a little







:


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## MarcyC

They seemed kinda open to it - she just said she's forward my request to Cynthia.

I think we get more support here because we are trying to overcome low supply and not just giving into bottles, kwim?

Have to cut this short - needy-baby today.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Sounds like Cynthia is considering the sub-forum idea. I posted under Questions & Suggestions:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=377219


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## gracious

Hello ladies!!! It's been a while since I have been around these parts! Just plain old busy I guess! Welcome to the new ladies!...and whoever got the idea to ask for a sub-forum...I applaud you









To update you all on our life since supplementing...

I venture to now say that it is going well. Hosanna was just weighed yesterday and she is now 10.11# wooohoooo! We are supplementing her with goats milk. We found some people who would sell us goats milk unpasturized and straight from the goat! I did a lot of research and she is actually getting more vitamins then she would be with formula...this makes my heart happy.
I am breastfeeding still too! She usually breastfeeds about 3-5 times during the day, and then only breastfeeding at night (mainly, I'm far to lazy to get up to get a bottle ready at night! ) I haven't noticed any change in my supply at all. When she's done breastfeeding I can still hand express milk...and sometimes during the day if I have not breastfed her for about 4 hours I do leak *yipppee* My theory is (and correct me if I'm wrong)...when babies get older and are eatting more solids, mom's milk supply doesn't die because baby isn't sucking as much as before...so I pretend that that is where we are at  and goats milk is our "solid"
I'm not using an SNS feeder. I'm not pumping. I did for a while, but it was very emotional for me, many many tears. As much as I would love to be able to only breastfeed, it is so much more important to enjoy the experience I think...and we are there now.
I'm so proud of my little pea she's done so well!


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## TurboClaudia

gracious, so glad to hear of your successes! that is wonderful that you found a source of raw goat's milk! when the season is right, they actually sell raw goat's milk at one of our local health food stores here and we used it for a while with our little man. are you adding anything to it, like EFAs or iron or folic acid or something else?

as babies get older and keep growing and gaining strength, their sucking and nursing becomes more efficient so sometimes they nurse for shorter times than before.

i, too, am excited about the prospect of a breastfeeding supply issues forum.









and a belated hug to adrienne.







such a heartbreaking choice to make: continue pumping and take time away from enjoying your little one and all the increased stress that goes along with it or choose to feed him formula exclusively and grieve the loss of the breastfeeding relationship you envisioned for yourself... please know that you did your best and you are making the best choice for your family. and little o did get the benefits of drinking your mama milk, even if it was just part of his calories.









and







to all the mamas...

~claudia


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## terrlk

I got some raspberry leaf capsules to add to my mix for trying to increase my supply and was wondering if anyone knew the amount to take. I have looked at breastfeedingonline.com and a few other sites to no avail. Any help is appreciated. Thanks and good luck to all.


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## JenInMpls

I just posted what I hope was an eloquent and impassioned plea for us to get a subforum









I had a heartwarming moment yesterday... Tristan, in the midst of teething, seems much more interested in nursing, and using his sign to tell me that he wants to nurse ("milk" sign)... and yesterday while he was nursing for a while he was swallowing every 5 sucks or so. I was amazed that "that much" (ha ha) milk was hiding away in there, I figured I was probably down to drops.

He's also been drinking his formula/milk mix (we're trying to switch to whole milk but I guess he likes the taste of the Baby's Only formula enough that he didn't like the switch! So we're mixing it and upping the milk: formula ration ever so slowly) out of a cup lately... 7 oz today. That's 7 more oz than he drank yesterday out of a cup! Perhaps he will get enough calories during the day at some point that we can stop with the SNSes at night... and subsequently PERMANENTLY! cross fingers...








to all, Jen

ps: terrik - I only ever drank red raspberry leaf in a tea, so I don't know how much to take via capsule, sorry... if I can find my wise woman herbal somewhere I will look. If I can't I'll call my chiropractor for you, I know she's got it...


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## littlehawksmom

Hi all.
My little one is gaining slowly, but I need to get more into her. I am pumping and supplementing with that and goat's milk (fortified)-I can only get 1/2 oz per breast when pumpming and fitting in lots of sessions is very stressful with my two year old, etc, etc. She is getting frustrated with the tubing (tiny tube and syringe-like SNS)-am I doing it wrong? I did try a bottle and she drank a little the first time, but now just wants to chew and won't suck (teething). I can sometimes just tell that she is hungry, although she is a VERY mellow baby, and sometimes just gives up if my milk comes in too slowly or not at all.
But it is hard to tell, besides the weight gain being slow. My husband is not even sure that there is anything wrong and the growth charts are bogus; so I don't get a lot of support there. Also don't get support because my breasts leak-like actually squirt out. But if I don't catch it or stop it, then thats all there is. It's like it all leaks out.







:
Dd is happy and alert and gaining steadily (but very slow-less than a 1/2 oz a day: she went from about the 50 percentile down to the 5th and now 10th). Midwife thinks she needs more, I think she needs more, but friends and dh say she is fine and I am overly worried (I do have a touch of ppd). She is 5 months old and even though I waited until 6 mos with ds, I am thinking about starting her on some cereal, mainly because I can mix it with the bm/goat milk as she is refusing other ways to get it into her.
And it is frustrating to throw away breast milk because it has been heated too many times (twice and twice refused).
Thanks for any advice.
Any thoughts on this?


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## MarcyC

Allie - She's gaining she's gaining she's gaining!!!! Even if it's slow, she's still gaining!!! Don't worry!!!!!! Be Happy!!!!!

The only reason I have to supplement is if/when I don't, she loses. So be happy that she's gaining!

Okay, now that we've got that down...

Has the ped. given okay for cereal? Does she seem interested in it or is the tongue relfex still present? I'd say try a little - maybe mixed w/ avocado to pack in some good calories and see how she does.


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## gracious

You are the mom and you know best, if you feel like she should be getting more...you are probably right...I'm sure we're all set up to know these things








With the bottle thing, have you tried a feeding cup? babies seem to take to them real easily and then do an easy transition to the bottle...


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## littlehawksmom

Thanks for the replies. It is so hard to know sometimes. I usually trust my instincts, but I think I have a touch of ppd and am feeling fuzzy. I do believe that milk production is right on par with hormone balance, so I am taking some herbs to help support the liver as well as the milk boosters.
Anyway, I gave dd a cup of ebm/goat's milk and she is getting better at getting it down that way. At least it doesn't make her mad. I don't think she is ready for solids yet, so I will keep going with the cup for at least a few more weeks (she is 5 months tomorrow!).
This pumping thing is hard! With an active two year old and all the washing of parts and such, it is so frustrating to only get 1/2 oz per side per session.
Hang in there, mamas!


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## Lisa P

Help mama's, Help! I've just found you all... here's my story... (I'm crossposting this as a thread in and of itself too...I need direction quickly







)

dd is 4 months old now and she has only ever had EBM in a haberman or been breastfed. I'm on day 4 of y period but my period came right back after dd was born and I have not had it affect my supply before. I do not take birth control pills, etc. or caffine for the most part...no chocolate, bananas, etc. either). All of a sudden my supply has plumeted. I went from being able to pump 12-15oz during the day at work (pn top of breastfeeding all night) to barely being able to pump 4 oz total for the day (same amount of pumping etc.). In a panic, I stayed home from work for the last day and a half and took dd to bed to get the supply up. I started taking fenugreek tincture and blessed thistle capsuls immediately (no mother's milk, etc at the health food store...). I have to go to work tomorrow and it has taken me 3 days to pump and save enough milk to send with dd to her sitter for the day.
Tonight she nursed for almost two hours straight and then got frustrated and cried herself to sleep because she was still hungry.








I feel like such a bad mama.
I am going to get my dr. to do bloodwork tomorrow if possible... but in the meantime what do I do if there's jsut not enough milk? Some say supplement...some say absolutely not. And if supplement is the answer then with what??? I am so confused and its just heartbreaking!
I called the LLL leader in the nearest city and she was not of much help.
What now? I don't want my dd to go hungry!


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## Barbee

i also have a hungry baby at night and i chose to supplement. i use nature's one formula which is organic and i give him between 2 and 4 ozs. a night. i just can't stand the thought of him hungry. i only supplement after he's been on the breast for at least 10 or 15 minutes and when i can tell he's getting frustrated. my lactation specialist told me that supplementing him isn't a bad thing if he really needs the nutrition. hth.. and good luck!


----------



## Hey Mama!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hey Mama!*
Hey all! I posted on here a while back about my breastfeeding struggles. I was on vacation for 6 weeks and during that time my dd self weaned. I know they say it is almost never happens that a babe under 1 will self wean but I think the formula supplementing did us in, just like I was afraid it would. I really wanted to go to 1 year and beyond, but 8.5 months is better then nothing, right?

Just wanted to update you all. I have had another dd since this post, in July 05. She is breastfed 100% no problems







One breast is still the supplier but it doesn't seem to be a problem. Now that I have G I can see differences between her and B. B had/has a small mouth and high palate, and she had an incredibly lazy suck, I could pull her right off. No one caught onto that fact while I was trying to bf her, not the LC, doctor or even myself. I also found out that mil had problems with dh nursing so I think he has a high palate as well. He has had dental surgeries because his mouth/jaw was too small, so I think B has inherited this from him.

I'm still a little sad that I could not nurse Bethany to the extent I wanted her to, and that I didn't get to tandem nurse. She seems to remember nursing though. When she watches me nurse G she gets a whistful look on her face, and she loves to nurse her own baby dolls.

I just wanted to share this follow up with you to offer hope that what happens with one child may not happen with another.


----------



## LeosMama

Hi Mama!
I didn't know you back then







but I try to insert this wherever it seems appropriate (or even peripheral). Your description of your dd1's suck is a red flag to me. You LC should have seen that with the weak suck she needed physical therapy. This is not your fault, this is the over-sight of the lactation consultant. She should have sent you to a speech language pathologist specializing in feeding disorders. They work with babies with lazy, disorganized sucks, etc. They can get Down syndrome babies to suckle with their patient, gentle training.
So this is really a note to any mama reading this who might suspect the problem is with the child, rather than the mama (or if you have low milk, you might suspect the poor suckle). Please get the child seen by a speech language pathologist or occupational therapist.

Thanks for the update, Hey Mama, and I'm so happy to hear about the better nursing experience this time around.







to you for working so hard to keep your babies breastfed as long as possible.


----------



## littlehawksmom

Hi Ladies.
I am just writing to try and get some reassurance and some kind words of support. My dd is 5.5 mos and I started her on some cereal this morning. She LOVED it and ate it all up (it was mixed with bm and goat milk formula). Then she nursed a little (and cried because the milk didn't come fast enough), and now she is sleeping a deeper sleep than she has slept since my supply went down. I guess I should be happy that she can eat now, but I am having almost overwhelming feeling of guilt. Should I have given her more goat milk formula (I really didn't want her to have any), or started on food earlier? I mean the poor thing was hungry! I am pumping as often as I can and even those 1-3 sessions were making my ds so upset-;like all my time is for baby, even when she is asleep. I feel like I have made her suffer and stunted her.
(Sometimes I feel like I have really formed ds in a negative way too, as I had low supply with him and in my ignorance, just thought he was high need {which he is, actually, still}, but maybe he was just so hungry that is why he didn't sleep and nursed so much, and why he so addicted to rice milk now-trying to not dwell on the past, though...).
I guess I just need some one to tell me that it is okay and eveything is fine. I mean, dh, mil, and many friends (everyone except midwife)think that dd is just fine and just small and doesn't need anything. I think that too, most days, although some days she seems hungry, but she is so mellow it is hard to tell, and then after the midwife ways her and says that a little less thatn 1/2 oz a day gain is not enough (one week she gained almost an oz a day, but I can't figure out what changed), then I start to have all these thoughts.
I know I have a little ppd, and I am workin gon that with herbs and therapy. Most of the time, things seem fine with her-she is just small. But then, ny insecurity sets in and my intuition is so cloudy and dh is NO help, and I just feel kind of scared that everything is not fine.....
I will get through this. I am strong and have inner wisdom. right?

Well just woke up, so I guess her sleep wasn';t so deep or long-is she still hungry? or do my kids just not sleep well?
gotta go


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## TurboClaudia

short reply, littlehawk...

sending you hugs







and peace and wisdom... you are doing the best you can for both your babies, and please know that.

with love,
claudia


----------



## MarcyC

Our tribe almost got lost!









Okay, not really "lost", but we had moved to page two. Too many new threads. I had to bring us back to the top...

Here's a good topic of conversation. What are some of the crazy things you've done to increase/keep/protect your milk supply?

Most of us take domperidone, try herbs, and lactogenic foods, right? I've been eating oatmeal for breakfast for what feels like forever. As soon as she's weaned I'm having a bagel!

Here's something crazy I do:

I have a Medela PIS always ready to pump. So whenever I feel let down and she's not ready to eat, I can pump ASAP. I also keep an Avent hand pump in the shower because even if she's just nurse I seem to always feel let down in the shower.

I also keep another Avent hand pump in the car.

Here's another topic:

I have heard that soy products (soy protein, soy milk, etc.) can increase estrogen levels and estrogen suppresses prolactin, so we should avoid too much soy. Well, prior to this knowledge I had always heard how soy is SO good for you so while I was pregnant my daily breakfast was a whole wheat bagel with low fat cream cheese and a glass of chocolate soy milk. I wonder if all that soy I drank while pg. increased my estrogen level so much that my prolactin levels didn't rise while I was pregnant. I mean, I had ZERO increase in breast size during pregnancy. With all that soy, was a doomed for a failed nursing experience.

Oh, the things we low-supply moms have to think about...


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## MarcyC

: Where is everyone? Where are my fellow tribe-members?


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## Barbee

i'm not a regular poster, but i'm here. actually, i have a question for all of you. in the evening, ds nurses a lot more frequently, like every hour instead of every three hours. anyway, he ends up doing this really strange thing. he flails his head around and takes me with him. he'll rear his head back and then, if i let him move his head around. i've been taking him off the breast before he can do this and then relatching him. it gets really frustrating. i'm assuming that he does this when my supply gets low, but he also did it with the bottle. i've burped him, so i don't think that's the problem. anyone have any idea why he does this?


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## MarcyC

I don't know...could he be just tired and not hungry. A girl in my LLL group had her son do something similar to this. It turns out he just had a need to "suck" but wasn't interested in milk. He just had these periods. She said whenever he got like this she offered a paci and he just sucked and went to sleep. It took her awhile to figure it out, though, and she was against ANY artificial nipples (even pacis) in the beginning so she said she really had to take his cues and give in a little.


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## JenInMpls

I'm here. *wave* just reveling in the fact that the night before last my son slept 10:30 - 8 and last night 10:30 - 7. Heaven!!

Barbee I would agree with Marcy although I've never had the problem, having so little milk. I have joked with other mamas I know who have "complained" about how their little ones just want to suck and not have milk that I would gladly trade one barren breast for one milky one, then we could both have one for feeding and one for just sucking









Happy Christmas to those who are celebrating...


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## aussiemum

Hey all, just checking in very briefly. Am on holidays in the mountains, so my internet access is very limited. I'll be back on line regularly near the end of January, assuming the car holds together long enough to get us home. (long story, not related to low-supply. it's been an....... interesting 'vacation' so far...... )

Cynthia has posted in a different thread requesting that us low-supply mums who want to see our own subforum please bring threads where bf difficulties are discussed to her attention. (i know that's a runon jsentence, but i'm too short on time to edit







) You can pm a link to her, & she'll check it out. I think we realy have to stay on the ball here if we want our own forum, & keep reminding her (CM) as she is very busy. I get the sense from the other thread that we all are being discussed...... will be interested to see what happens. Very frustrated that I'm away from my connection right now, & so have very limited opportunity to pursue this. Keep up the good fight for me too, please, won't you all!









And in case I'm not online for another few weeks.......

Happy New Year!!!!!








:


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## JenInMpls

Hey mamas, we are a featured forum this week!

Question for SNS users: we are trying to wean T off of formula and onto milk. It's been slow going, as he seems to like the formula (I guess Baby's Only tastes good!), but we're finally heading over the bump and he's now drinking a mix that is more milk than formula. We seem to be encountering a bit of a problem, though - the milk we use is whole and non-homogenized and the fat likes to stick in the tubes. Has anyone else ever dealt with this and if so, how did you solve it? It seems that having the mix warm helps but the problem is that the only time we are still using the SNS is overnight and it sits in a cooler under ice next to the bed in case he wakes up. When he's crying in the middle of the night there is no getting up to go warm up his milk.

TIA for any thoughts you have!







Jen


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## TurboClaudia

jen: do you mean the milk/formula mix is sticking in the tubes and clogging them while he is eating? or do you mean it is hard to clean out when you are done? no thoughts on the former other than dunking the bottle/baggy in some warm water to help heat it a bit while eating, but as for cleaning, you can use a 1:1 white vinegar/water solution to clean it after use. we used to use bulb syringe and flush warm soapy water mixture through, then the vinegar/water solution through, then plain distilled water through.

by the way, where is the thread that cynthia mosher asked us to post links to threads about breastfeeding supply issues to?

nevermind... found it attached to our old question: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=377219

~claudia


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## JenInMpls

Yes, the clogging occurs sometimes as he's eating. My only solution I've been able to find is that I can sometimes switch tubes if the other one is not clogged, and usually the suction power will clear the other one if I open it for air intake.

Oddly enough, the clogging may also be to my/our advantage in weaning him off of the supplementer - it seems he is starting to get the idea that nursing is not always the best solution for curing hunger and he's starting to learn to distinguish between mama milk for comfort and milk in a cup for hunger, and it's showing me that in the middle of the night, it's not always food he's craving, but rather closeness, nurturing, and the comfort of sucking.

thanks for your tips, Claudia.


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## MamasBoys

Hey girls,

This is my very first post here, and I was skimming topics and stopped at this one. I've only skimmed the replies, but wanted to share my story, in case it might be useful to someone else.

I breastfed my son for 3 weeks, but he always seemed like he was STARVING. He would nurse for an hour and I would finally unlatch him, only to hear him scream for more. I couldn't figure out why there was a problem. I furiously searched for information, and read that I should be hearing 'swallowing sounds' and 'feeling several letdowns'. None of this was happening for me. My son also was not gaining back his birthweight. On top of that, I also have flat nipples, and started getting SEVERE latch on pain. I decided to start pumping exclusively. I pumped with a hospital grade pump for 20 minutes every 2 hours, around the clock. At first, I was only able to get 1.5 ounces total per session! I had to supplement with formula. I tried Organic Mother's Milk tea, Fenugreek, Blessed Thistle, ate oatmeal religiously every morning, and drank a TON of water. Gradually over the course of 2 weeks, I was able to pump JUST ENOUGH to keep up with my son. When he was 5 weeks old, I got so exhausted with the pumping routine, that I tried breastfeeding again. The latch was MUCH better, and I experienced no discomfort. (I had won half the battle!) I saw my midwife for my 6 week checkup, and she gave me a Homeopathic Medicine called LACTUCA VIROSA. It is sugar pellets, 200CK. One is placed under the tongue to dissolve each morning and night. (She orders hers online from a company in Great Brittain, but I have seen them elsewhere online and can find the link in my history again if anyone is interested.)

I took the first pellet on my way home from my midwife appointment, and within a few hours, my son was audibly swallowing while nursing, I was feeling 3-4 letdowns during a feeding session, and milk was actually DROOLING OUT OF HIS MOUTH! I couldn't BELIEVE it!!! I am absolutely convinced that this stuff SAVED my breastfeeding relationship. I highly encourage others to try it out.


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## Barbee

thank you for your post. i found this link http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Lact where you can order some. my sister's mw recommends vitex for low milk supply. anyone ever heard of this? i used it when i was ttc, but never heard of it for this.
this link says to take alfalfa with lv.. http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milks...-rem_j.html#lv


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## henhao

I'm ordering domperidone in the next day or so. Has anyone tried it?

After my baby's recent poor weight gain, I'm back to pumping 2 x per day when I am with her and also supplementing 2-4 oz per day. I supp with either EBM or formula. Ah!! It's SOOOO refreshing to be able to say I give her formula and NOT to have to explain why. You all understand!!!!

When I'm with the baby the bfing goes well. But when I go to work my supply dips a great deal. I can't let down for the pump like I do for the babe. I have the week off of work, so I'm nursing her a great deal. She appears to be getting enough. It's a downer, though, when I can't be with her and she drinks 18 oz in 8 or so hours...no way can I keep up with that!

I'm also renting a new pump in the hopes a hosp grade pump will draw more milk out of me then the PIS does.


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## MarcyC

I use domperidone. I take 90 mg. a day (30 x 3). It seems to help although I do still have to use the SNS. She's almost 9 months and my milk hasn't dried up so at least she's getting something.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Hi, I'd like to hear other people's opinions about why diagnosing low-milk supply is so "easy" for some (non-bfing friendly peds, for instance) and so "hard" for others (very pro-bfing peds, nurses, lactation consultants, LLL volunteers, etc.) It seems like people are all on one side of the issue, like it is a political opinion rather than a medical issue.

It seems like there is not a standard definition of when the nursing relationship is "in trouble" and needs to have some help (more/better lactation consultant evaluations or visits, prescribing herbal or prescription galactactogoges, supplementing with donated BM or articificial milk, etc.) Why is there no standard protocol?

I'd also like to hear other people's stories about how they were finally diagnosed with this problem.


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## MarcyC

You should copy your exact post and start it as a new thread in "Breastfeeding Support & Advocacy".

I think it's just lack of education on the part of medical professionals. Also lack of education on the part of the mothers and even when there is education, the moms sometimes aren't pro-active in their medical care.

My opinion is that when a baby isn't gaining weight, or isn't gaining enough weight, the peds. and/or LC's automatically say - "oh, low supply...supplement." That's it. Nobody questions anything.

But there are other peds. who will refer to an LC's. LC's who refer to specialists (ie, speech therapists who specialize in infant suck patterns). There are OB's who will refer to endocrinologists (to check for gland/hormone problems). In my case, DD wasn't gaining. She wasn't holding steady either. She was losing...and losing...and losing...and losing.

My peds. are very BF'ing friendly and slow-to-supplement. Even when they did finally tell me to supplement, they said their BIGGEST concern was my milk supply and they encouraged the use of an SNS (some peds. don't even know what an SNS is).

I called my ob/gyn b/c all this "not being able to nurse" was causing severe PPD. They prescribed Reglan (which made PPD worse, btw). But they also offered to do bloodwork to check hormone levels. I had already done some research on the internet so I knew what they were looking for and I knew what questions to ask. It turns out I have super-high (abnormally high) estrogen levels. Estrogen suppresses prolactin. I also have some other symptoms of PCOS - weight gain, facial hair, etc.

But I continue to use the SNS and my cycles haven't returned so I know she's getting all I can provide.

I'll be anxious to see other's answers, but really, you should post this in BF'ing support and advocacy - you may get a lot more responses there.


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## LeosMama

henhao, just out of interested curiosity, what hospital grade pump will you be renting?

I think it's a good idea, BTW, as the little electric pumps just aren't up to the task for those of us with low supply.

My favorite hospital grade pumps were the Medela Classic and the Medela Symphony. I hated the Lactina, I found it very painful and sharp/harsh and couldn't let down to it b/c of the pain it caused. To make it work w/o pain I had to turn it down so far it was barely sucking. GGRR Men design these things and test them on goats, I'm sure of it!


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## LeosMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamasBoys*
Hey girls,
... I saw my midwife for my 6 week checkup, and she gave me a Homeopathic Medicine called LACTUCA VIROSA. It is sugar pellets, 200CK. One is placed under the tongue to dissolve each morning and night. (She orders hers online from a company in Great Brittain, but I have seen them elsewhere online and can find the link in my history again if anyone is interested.)

I took the first pellet on my way home from my midwife appointment, and within a few hours, my son was audibly swallowing while nursing, I was feeling 3-4 letdowns during a feeding session, and milk was actually DROOLING OUT OF HIS MOUTH! I couldn't BELIEVE it!!! I am absolutely convinced that this stuff SAVED my breastfeeding relationship. I highly encourage others to try it out.

Just found this on kellymom.com:
http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milks...bal-rem_j.html

Thanks for the tip, MamasBoys. I am always on the lookout for tips on galactagogues. I am considering trying to relactate, I wonder if it would be possible and/or worth the hassle. I need to find a really good galactagogue if I'm going to do it, and don't think dh would support me buying the domperidone at this late date (boy is nearly 2 yo) as we have just decided to end formula supplementation (the boy eats solids very well and a lot of variety).


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## TurboClaudia

so mamas, my almost 19 month old decided he was done nursing while we were on vacation for the holidays back with our families. he was just too busy having fun to nurse, even at night just before bed. he would just say bye-bye when i lifted up my shirt or show me the sign for sleep, and even though i know toddlers can forget the mechanics of nursing in just a few days, i thought i'd try just one more time when we got home after our 11 day trip. but he just sucked on the very end of the nipple like a straw and just for like 3 seconds and then said bye-bye and showed me the sign for sleep.

i just needed to share with some mamas who understand the journey of breastfeeding struggles. i am truly amazed that we made it as far as we did considering where we were a year ago, and i am grateful that i can remember the details of our last nursing since it was right before we left on our trip, but i am sad, mamas...

wishing you all a peaceful end to your nursing relationships when the time comes...

with love,
claudia


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## leahida

I have read through this thread and really sympathize with all you mamas struggling to bf. My DS is almost a month old and is only 7 oz above birth weight. I am pretty sure my milk was late coming in, and he got jaundiced and really dehydrated in the first week. In retrospect, I think my postpartum caregivers had a little too relaxed attitude about it and just kept telling me not to worry and that bfing works. I felt in my gut that something wasn't right, but was made to feel that it was just hormones and new mom paranoia.

In the first week we ended up supplementing with formula and bm via finger feeding for a few days but he has been exclusively bf for over two weeks now. I also got a case of mastitis that I'm just now nearly recovered from.

I've gotten advice from several LCs and it is all slightly if not blatantly conflicting. Last week he gained 8 oz (the week before he had only gained 3 oz) but I am still not sure things are on the right track. His pee and poopy diapers are OK but something just doesn't feel right. I saw a new LC yesterday who shared my concerns (finally someone does!!), and said if he doesn't gain the same amount next week, we should consider a SNS.

Right now I am pumping 6 times a day -- I can get roughly an ounce out from both breasts at each pumping, and feeding it to him via finger feeding and a bottle. (The LC also thought there might be a possibility of silent reflux too, though probably only a 10% chance of that.)

Also, we are still not able to get the latch right. It doesn't help that I have very large breasts and he is such a little guy. I think it will get easier once he gets bigger but it's such a catch-22; because the latch is off, and he doesn't or can't open wide enough to get a good amount of areola, he isn't getting enough to grow!! I've been trying to retrain DS to latch on correctly and he's really resisting it. He either cries and pushes me away or he falls asleep and I have to start all over waking him up, comforting him when he is screaming at the breast, and trying to get him latched on properly.

This at times has felt like a real nightmare and it's hard not to get depressed when my baby is screaming with hunger all the time. I cry about it almost every day but wipe away my tears and try to stay positive for DS' sake. I am still hopeful that we'll make it through this OK and I'll be able to exclusively bf my son. I would totally be willing to supplement with formula if need be, but so far everyone is assuring me there's no need yet since he is gaining weight.

Thanks for letting me vent!!


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## LeosMama

Leah

I have to agree, that if he is gaining weight, you should stick with the breastmilk.
What do you feel is not right? That he is not gaining enough? That he is not latching well?
When you get him on does it hurt? Do you have to keep latching and re-latching? A four week old baby should be getting the hang of this by now.

Please describe your situation in a littl emore detail, especially about his latching issues.

I hate saying welcome to women here, as it's not a place any of us wants to be. But you are welcome here and I hope we can help you with practical and loving support.
-Lindsay

Claudia,







to you too. And







for working so long and hard and getting your babe milk for 19 months! I wish so strongly that I could have given mine milk for longer than 16 mos, I wish it had been at least 24 mos. It makes me very sad and I feel like a bit of a failure that I gave up pumping and let it go. I regret it every day. And yet I also feel like I made the right choice as I was at the end of my rope with worrying about supply and pumping at work. Just trying to say that I empathize and feel for you.







And I hope if you have another babe you may have an easier time.


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## leahida

Thanks Lindsay-- the latch is not terribly painful although my nipples are still somewhat sore -- not agonizing but slightly sore. He also can't seem to open wide enough to get much the lower areola into his mouth -- we can't seem to get that "asymmetric latch" going. Plus his suck is really not very strong and he does not have that suck-pause-swallow thing going. By a few minutes into a feed, it feels like he is just sucking for comfort but not getting much milk. Though when we finger feed he has a very strong suck.

Also towards the end of a feed he will relax his mouth even more and will essentially be sucking right around my nipple though not the nipple itself. He also does not have good gulping swallows, just little "clicks" and mostly nibbles at the nipple. At the advice of the LC today I have not been a drill sargeant about latching and relatching to get the latch right and am just letting him latch on as we have been, since he was beginning to refuse the breast. The LC is going to do a home visit tomorrow AM and hopefully we can work on it a little more.

I have been wondering if a chiropractor or craniosacral therapy might help with latch issues? He was posterior and I had a very long labor, so wonder if anything might be out of whack from that.

What I feel is not right is that although last week's weight 8 oz gain was good, he gained so slowly before that. If next week's weight gain is as good as last week's, perhaps I will be able to relax a bit and assume that this past week was not just an aberration but a trend. Although I am so glad of course, it's also weird that he gained that much since I doubt that he's getting enough milk from my breast (weak suck and swallows) and I was pumping less last week than I am now.

Yikes, sorry this is so long!







Thanks for the welcome...


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## LeosMama

Hi Leah,

It really does sound like he would benefit from suck therapy with a craniosacral therapist, occupational therapist, or speech language pathologist. In any case, find someone specializing in neonatal feeding disorders or at least swallowing disorders.

Not having seen him, I can only guess from your description, but the clicking, the weak breast suckle, the poor latch, the lack of nutritive sucking all indicate to me that he has a disorganized suck that needs training. I'd get on this ASAP. Like tomorrow morning right away after doing web searching tonight to find someone local. If you need help searching, I'm getting pretty good at helping women find specialists locally. But your LC may have someone she works with.

I'd strongly recommend doing it right away before your supply dips or anything else happens to complicate or otherwise make your relationship more difficult.

If you can tough out the pain, then I also agree with the LC telling you not to be a Nazi about the latch. You don't want to deal with breast aversion, too.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## leahida

Thanks -- I think you're right about getting on it ASAP and will bring it up with the LC when I see her (in an hour)! Thanks again, and will be sure to keep you posted.


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## Erin11

I posted in the BF board about regretting not BF'ing my 3 1/2 month old twins. I got many great responses that are very very appreciated

My question is, how would one get started in the whole relactation process? I don't have much money at this point, I don't even own a breastpump.

Has anyone on here ever relactated before?

I need help. This is something I am pondering over right now. I don't have support for this and feel like I need to keep it a big secret from everyone. The only person I have told was my dp. He told me is was too late, unnecessary. I know that he doesn't know any better, but I feel so silly for this.

The girls are growing and thriving, I just feel like I shouldn't been messing with this after all the time passed. They are doing fine and I don't want to come in a make things more complicated.

Not even that but NO ONE in my family or dp's family BF's. I think that it would be very hard to tell them about this. I can't even imagine what they would say or think. I know it shouldn't matter to me, but I can't help but think about it.

Thanks so much for any advice.


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## JenInMpls

Erin: check out the four friends website, they run a "relactation boot camp". Also kellymom.com has some relactation info. good luck!

Claudia:







but I hope that you take pride in the fact that you nursed your baby til he weaned himself!!!! That is SUPER!

xo to all, j


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## MarcyC

I just HAD to share!!! Last night I was feeling pretty full on one side. She only nurses 4 times a day and I pump twice a day. So last night I decided to nurse her WITHOUT THE SNS







on one side and see how she did. Well, she sucked hard enough for me to let down and it must have been too much for her because she pulled off and milk was still spraying out.







How happy was I!?














:









I mean, I've heard of that happening to other women...but here it happened to a low-supply mama!







WooHoo!!!!!


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## Greensleeves

You can do it!


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## leahida

Thanks for the suggestions, Greensleeves









Some good news -- DS is four weeks old today, I weighed him this morning and he hit the 8 lb mark! This is huge for us!! He seems to be gaining about an ounce a day so far this week (PLEASE let this continue).

I had been doing the "nipple sandwich" but then the LC showed me this new technique where you raise the nipple with your thumb and sort of fold it into his mouth (hard to explain) -- hinging his head forward. Is that the RAM technique you mentioned? Anyway when she came back yesterday she said she thought his latch was not so bad after all, though he generally has much more of the upper than lower areola in his mouth. I have been trying both techniques depending on his mood and if he seems willing to try something new. It still seems like he's not getting enough breast in his mouth but who knows?

I do have the My Brest Friend pillow and like it a lot









I guess I am still worried about his weak suck though -- and am going to get some names of Cranio-sacral therapists from the LC on Monday.

Oy -- so far these breastfeeding woes have been costing an utter fortune -- but it's a worthy investment. I really feel for mamas who don't have the kind of financial resources to see LCs, CSTs, etc. My insurance doesn't cover them.


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## BookGoddess

Popping my head in here to say "hi". I haven't posted here in a while after my introduction to the Low-Milk Supply Tribe.

I have two questions for you other low-milk mamas. Hope you can help me.







I'm on domperidome. It has helped my supply a lot but I've noticed that if I cut back on it my supply goes down. How long can I safely stay on it?

Question number two is something I wondered about after my doctor told me not to take me iron supplements with calcium. The benefits of iron are reduced by the presence of calcium. In the same way, if I give DD breastmilk and follow it up with formula are the benefits of my milk reduced by the presence of the formula?


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## TurboClaudia

if you are not having uncomfortable side effects from the domperidone, i would think you could stay on it for quite a while (a year or more) as it was designed as a digestive helping pharmaceutical. i don't have specific research, but dr. jack newman did a bunch of research on it so his website might help.

and as for following up breastmilk by giving formula, what specifically are you concerned with reducing? the whole iron/ calcium thing or just the health benefits of breastmilk in general? because in my thought process, the breastmilk is going in her stomach first and then into the rest of baby's digestive system and "prepping" it, so that when formula comes through, she's gotten the initial good effects of the breastmilk and then simply finishes getting a full tummy with more alternative milk. i think that's just my philosophy, though, and not really based on any research.

~claudia


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## MarcyC

I agree with Claudia - any and all breastmilk is good, even if you have to supplement with formula. Dr. Newman has some research on supplementing with solids as early as 3 months, thereby replacing icky formula with something more healthful - mashed bananas, avocado, rice cereal, etc. His theory is something like breastmilk helps the digestive system mature faster and work better and therefore breastfed babies can accept solids earlier than formula-fed babies if necessary for supplementation. I'm totally paraphrasing all that info, but it was something to that effect.


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## BookGoddess

Thanks ladies! I'm actually not having any bad side-effects from the domperidome. I had mild headaches at first but they seem to have gone away. I sometimes feel like I have to use the bathroom more frequently. Sorry, TMI.









I'm not concerned about iron or calcium. I just used that as an example of how one substance might be better taken alone than without another. I probably didn't explain myself well. I was concerned that whatever benefits DD was getting from my milk was being reduced by the presence of the formula that she also gets soon after. But if that's not the case then I'm happy.


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## BibaDiva73

I had low milk supply issues with my first son and my midwife thinks it's because of the mini-pills I was taking even though the OB/GYN I was with at the time insisted that it wouldn't harm my milk. Midwife says that it does and I supplemented because he was so hungry even after I would nurse for an hour(30 min. each breast) It was very hard for me the first few months and I felt like a failure( Breast infections, PPD as a result of bf issues, etc.). My next baby is due in a few weeks and I really want to avoid that kind of heartache. I've heard of Fenugreek and Fennel, so I will try drinking more of the teas this time around and I will try to stay positive. It's so hard when so many people around me never even WANTED to try to nurse and are not very encouraging about it--including my own Mother. My husband--thankfully enough is very supportive coming from a mother who bf him and five other siblings and a sister who bf her kids. For so long, I felt guilty about supplementing and beat myself up about it even though I continued to nurse until my son naturally weened at 9 and a half months. It's good to know there are people out there who have been through it or are going through it now.


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## MarcyC

Yes! Those mini-pills CAN hurt supply. Unless you are an over-supply mom, avoid them at all cost! In the first few weeks (actually I think it's 3 mos, but someone correct me if I'm wront), milk supply is hormone-driven. The best thing you can do for supply is nurse nurse nurse nurse nurse!!! After that it's more supply & demand-driven. If you end up having to supplement in the first few weeks, use an SNS-feeder. You may want to get one now since you've had problems in the past. I like the Medela SNS, but there is a lact-aid system that some people like. Check ebay for used ones that you can sterlize. I actually have a lact-aid system I'm going to list on ebay, but if you're interested in buying it, let me know. Before you go with the peds. recommendation to supplement (if they do end up recommending that), check in here with MDC - esp. the BF'ing support & advocacy forum. Don't just blindly follow the ped, kwim?

Welcome to our low milk supply tribe! Here's hoping your stay in it will be short-lived.


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## JenInMpls

Marcy I'm way late in saying this but







for your let-down and spraying milk. I've never experienced my milk letting down much less milk spraying out without me squeezing pretty firmly, so I know I would be on the phone calling every single person I know if something like that happened to me







what a feeling of success!!!

bibadiva you might considering buying bottles of motherlove More milk plus supplement, it's got lots of the herbs in it for lactation but you don't have to go out of your way to drink lots and lots of tea every day - although it's a great way to get all of that extra fluid you need for nursing. It's just really concentrated and a good way to make sure you're getting as much as you can of those beneficial galactagogues.

Although I hate the fact that I know that word so well, I love the way it sounds rolling off the tongue... galactagogue.







xo jen


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## BibaDiva73

Thank you to MarcyC and JenInMpls for your tips and words of encouragement. MIdwife did mention the SNS feeder should I have the same problems this time around. Never heard of MotherLove More Milk Plus supplement, but I'm searching for it now. I want to see what other alternatives are out there because it's important for me to be more informed than I was the first time around. Switching peds helped me alot-- the first pediatrician was all for giving him formula and even told me that since I was having so many problems with the nursing that I should quit and just formula feed only. Now I have a Holistic ped who is a member of various lactation associations, so that will help me out alot as well.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Motherlove is at:

http://www.motherlove.com/products_extracts.php


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## mollysmommybrett

hi, i've also got low supply due to having a reduction 2 1/2 years ago. i was told i'd never breastfeed







and yet my dd turned 6 mo last week, and i still am!

i was taking reglan 1 week/month, and fenugreek 3-4x a day. but now that we think i may be pg again, i've stopped both- need to find out if im pg or not to continue those meds!!


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## LeosMama

remember domperidone, too. It's much milder than reglan in terms of adverse side-effects.

And you can take other galactagogues: goat's rue and oat (avena sativa) come to mind. If you are pregnant, be sure to coordinate with your midwife and an herbalist about taking galactagogues. There are some effective ones that are compatible with pregnancy.


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## JenInMpls

Yeah, I think you're not supposed to take fenugreek when you are pregnant. Being pregnant might wreak havoc on your supply, however small (but hey! in my book, any milk is good milk!!) but if your bambina likes to nurse for the comfort you might be tandem nursing in a year and a few months










OK, I need some dancing vegetables:








:




























:

I weaned my son off of the SNS but not off of the breast!

He started being very willing to take milk from a sippy cup, and is able to differentiate between wanting milk and wanting to nurse, and we found that he really wasn't interested in that cup of milk overnight - he wanted mama. Now he nurses for 10 minutes and goes right back to sleep. It's so wonderful to not have to worry about bringing up a cooler before going to bed.

Whoopee!







jen


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## MarcyC

WooHoo, Jen!!!

















That is awesome! We're SNS-free at night as well. Actually we're SNS-free at naptime, too! We only use the SNS for breakfast, lunch, dinner and bedtime. Before each nap (2 x day) she nurses w/o the SNS and any overnight feedings. Isn't it a good feeling!?


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## mamato2boys

I posted this in the BF part infancy but didn't get much response. My 2yo is nightweaning himself. His schedule had been to get up 2-3x nightly to BF and then BF from 5AM-7AM each morning. Now he's skipping the nightly feedings and waking closer to 6AM to BF. I have breast hypoplasia and it's been a struggle for us to get to this point. I'm afraid now that my supply will get even worse now that he's not waking at night. I'm not ready for BF to end, and I know he's not ready either.

Will this have a huge negative effect on my supply? Is there anything I can do? On my other post someone suggested pumping at night to keep up supply. I produce no milk pumping, but would the stimulation of the pump be enough to help?

Any ideas? Thanks!


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## MarcyC

I'm no expert in this because for me, getting a good nights sleep always increased my supply. I'd wake up engorged...and engorgement for a low supply mom is a good thing, kwim?









I'd say to give the pumping at night a shot. It seems like I've read somewhere that even if you don't produce for the pump, the extra stimulation is good for supply.

Sometimes with low-supply there's a lot of trial and error (unfortunately the errors cost us a lot). Enjoy the extra sleep and let us know what works for you!


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## JenInMpls

Nicole - is your bambino nursing for comfort or for food? I am in a situation like yours. Mine is a major comfort nurser, it seems he's learned that the supply is low and if he's hungry he walks around saying "eat! eat! eat" - but he's still definitely a nurser. When he wants to nurse, I think he doesn't give a rip if he gets little more than a teaspoon and sometimes I think he gets next to nothing, given that he may swallow twice in a minute. I guess that the pumping will help with breast stimulation but I am wondering - if he's nursing for comfort, will a slightly lower supply make a difference to him? Will he nurse less?

If he's not ready to wean, I don't think he will wean himself just because your supply goes down, especially considering that he is eating solids.

I have to second the getting more sleep thing. Pumping will stimulate your breasts but I would have to believe that sleeping will stimulate your whole person! You could also take More Milk Plus tincture or even try Domperidone. It definitely increased my supply when I tried it.

Curious what you think -







Jen


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato2boys*
I posted this in the BF part infancy but didn't get much response. My 2yo is nightweaning himself. His schedule had been to get up 2-3x nightly to BF and then BF from 5AM-7AM each morning. Now he's skipping the nightly feedings and waking closer to 6AM to BF. I have breast hypoplasia and it's been a struggle for us to get to this point. I'm afraid now that my supply will get even worse now that he's not waking at night. I'm not ready for BF to end, and I know he's not ready either.

Will this have a huge negative effect on my supply? Is there anything I can do? On my other post someone suggested pumping at night to keep up supply. I produce no milk pumping, but would the stimulation of the pump be enough to help?

Any ideas? Thanks!

Nicole -- WOW







AWESOME to keep on against the odds for 2 years! Struggling with low supply is so hard.

I would imagine at this point, DS's diet is mostly solids? As Jen said, is he nursing for food or comfort? I think the advice about pumping / feeding in the middle of the night is good for people in the first year or so who are struggling with maintaining their supply. The only think I can say is try it both ways (sleeping vs. pumping). Personally, I think I would go for the sleep or just get up ONCE to pump for 10 minutes or so. (I know from experience when you get up on YOUR sleep schedule it's much easier than getting up according to someone ELSE's sleep schedule







)

While I'm NOT suggesting that you wean, since neither of you is ready for taht -- is it possible your DS wants to night-wean? Is this what is meant by child-lead weaning? (*clueless*)


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## LeosMama

If you want to pump at night, go for it. But you don't necessarily need to have milk to keep nursing. My milk was gone around 16 mos, but my 24 mos ds still nurses. I know you want milk for your son, so do what you can to keep your supply going. Take galactagogues: oats [avena sativa], goat's rue, fenugreek, blessed thistle. Try pumping during the day, too. Sleep is good for milk production, too.
The stimulation of pumping may help the production, but my understanding is that supply is also about emptying the breasts, as well as stimulation.

I do agree with MaryJaneLouise that this sounds like child-led weaning, a natural process that should be supported (not necessarily encouraged or pushed, just supported) as needed by the child. If he's ready to nightwean, then I'd personally let him do so.

Sorry that wasn't much help.
-Lindsay


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## mamato2boys

I'm glad you all seem to think that sleep will be better than pumping. I've really learned to enjoy more sleep and I wasn't looking foreward to giving that up









I think that he BF mostly for comfort. I had to suppliment with formula when he was an infant, he got about 1/2 of what he needed from me then. But, he gets really angry when he empties me out and isn't ready to stop BF. So it does matter to him if there is less milk. So far, he doesn't BF less, but I worry about that--now though he throws an absolute fit which isn't too fun either. If it becomes a problem I'll break out the fenugreek again, we had some success with that before. I agree with you all that he is nightweaning. I'm supporting that, I'm just SO not ready for him to completely wean. I know he's not ready for that yet; I suppose that the nightweaning has really made me think about the fact that our BF relationship will end at some time. I only BF his brothers for about 6mos max, after we introduced a bottle neither of them would take the breast, even with a SNS. I think our BF relationship and it's success contributed a lot to healing the pain of not being successful the first two times and having to suppliment. I suppose that's a lot of pressure to put onto my son.

Thanks much for the support!


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## MarcyC

My neighbor BF'd her son until he was over 3. She told me that she's sure towards the end of their nursing relationship she had no milk left. He just wanted the comfort of mom!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato2boys*
But, he gets really angry when he empties me out and isn't ready to stop BF. So it does matter to him if there is less milk.

Isn't that the most horrid feeling, both physically & emotionally? I remember DS #2,who has always had the most perfect latch.... his little tongue would be pushing, pushing, rasping the dry breast.... so sad


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## JenInMpls

Yeah, formula. Anyway, I know some of us use it, having no other option, and I therefore want to make this available to all of you before I go trying to freecycle them, as I would guess MDCers would be more into organic formula than your average freecyclin' joe. T just finished up formula this month and I had been saving the labels off of our Baby's Only Organic cans. I am sure I have enough for 2 free cans. If you can use it, please let me know. I will send you the UPCs if you give me your address. You have to send them in yourself to get your retail checks because they put your name and address on them.

Hopefully it is obvious, given that I have posted this to my low-supply sisters in our low-supply tribe, that I am not out to try to convince anyone to abandon breastfeeding in favor of feeding formula... just thought I'd try to help someone out who is in the same shoes. Wow, what a CYA statement! Anyway, lmk. jen


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## Robin926

Hi low supply moms. I've never posted in this tribe, although I suffered from low supply from the very beginning with my DS. He's 16 months now, and I'm sad to say he's not nursing anymore. It was a long, hard road, full of Reglan, Fenugreek, constant pumping and nursing, and... well you all know how it goes!

Now that he's over one, DH and I are debating on what to give him in the absence of BM. I wanted to nurse until at least 2, but DS was never much of a comfort nurser so he didn't want to keep nursing when I was no longer making even a drop of milk. He was on regular formula in addition to my BM, and we got WIC for the first year. Since 12 mos, of course, we don't get the WIC formula anymore so we've been buying it ourselves which is $$$$$$ each month. We did switch to a toddler formula also.

DS will readily drink organic cow's milk when I offer it so I'm wondering if any of you mamas made the switch this young? We were hoping to go until 2 with the formula (since I wouldn've BF that long if I could've), but I just don't know if we can afford to keep buying it. And I keep reminding myself that even plenty of BF moms wean around a year and switch to cow's milk, and of course their babies are healthy. What do you mamas think?


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## TurboClaudia

our son is almost 20 months and gave up nursing at age 18.5 months. he was only nursing one time a day for at least 3-4 months before that, however. we have not replaced mama's milk with any other milks at this time. our son is quite the solid food eater, however, and makes up for his calories by eating almost as much food as either one of us adults eats at a sitting. he does eat a lot of cheese and yogurt so he's getting plenty of calcium and fat from those. i also add some udo's oil (EFAs) to his oatmeal most days, so he's getting good healthy fats from that, too. it sounds like you think he still wants some sort of milk (in a bottle or sippy or cup), but if that's not the case, i'm not aware of a reason to replace human milk or substitute human milk with cow milk. there are more calorically rich and nutrient-dense foods than cow milk, but is there something i don't know about this?

just curious...

and jen, i noticed your post about free formula and formula coupons a week or two ago in one of the breastfeeding forums and wanting to get it to other mdc mamas who were unable to breastfeed or exclusively breastfeed... did some mods delete your post?

and a belated welcome to any newbie mamas to this thread... wish you didn't have to be here and sending you milky vibes...









~claudia


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## Robin926

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
it sounds like you think he still wants some sort of milk (in a bottle or sippy or cup)

Yeah, that's the case. He is quite attached to Nuby cups of formula (and sometimes a bottle if he's particularly hard to settle). He drinks water and the occasional juice when he is thirsty, but he likes to have a cup of warm formula/milk before naps/bed. And the reason we continued with the toddler formula is because I want to make sure he's getting enough of various nutrients so I don't have to worry on those days when he eats nothing but bananas all day long







Since I would've BF until 2 (which seems to be the age that whole cow's milk is recommended for too), I wanted him to have something to replace that with.

So I guess I wouldn't really be interested in getting rid of all milk at this age, just wondering what crunchy mamas though of going to whole milk instead of continuing with the formula. It is impossible to find good info on mainstream sites because it's all "formula until 12 months and then regular cow's milk," but nothing about what to do if you were planning on EBF, you know?


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## JenInMpls

Hi Robin, I remember you from the sept mama board







Tristan no longer drinks formula and drinks organic whole non-homogenized cow's milk. My only concern, really, is the iron, since there is *so* much iron in formula... but there isn't any in breast milk, if I recall correctly (is this right?), so I don't know why I'm worrying...? I make an effort to make sure he is eating enough beans and I try to sneak him cooked spinach and other greens whenever I can, he's not a big fan though! I feed him a very balanced diet and he is healthy, strong and active.

Our doctor said that if we could we should try to keep him on formula until 18 mos but it was primarily because it was a good source of vitamins. Our case of Baby's Only ran out and we were not interested in buying any more. He transitioned onto milk over a very long stretch - I think about 3 months.

You could also feed him enriched soy milk, it depends on how you feel about soy. We are very skeptical about soy in our household so we choose to go with the cow milk. My friend's son has an allergy to cow milk so he drinks soy. Other friends of mine are into Weston Price / Sally Fallon / "real" (raw) milk. We tried goat milk with T but we tried it in fall when the goats were coming into heat and the milk was really... well, goaty. (Tasted very strongly of the goat taste.) T wouldn't touch it and even I thought it was strong, and I like goat milk! I guess you just do the research and go with what you feel is best. - Jen


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## Vixxen

Hi Mamas,

I posted on this tribe back when I was struggling with low milk supply with my daughter who is now almost 2. I gave birth to my son Colton exactly a week ago today and am once again struggling with low supply. My milk came in on day 4 this time around as opposed to day 7 with my daughter. I started on fenugreek the day after he was born and started back on metformin also. I took metformin until I was 36 weeks pregnant this time around and have noticed some breast growth as opposed to none with Kaylee. I'm really hopeful that I will be able to build a much greater supply this time. We have been using a SNS to supplement since Monday which is working pretty well for us although at times I really struggle to get the tube placed correctly. I'm trying really hard to cherish the fact that Colton is so willing to nurse even if he isn't getting 100% breastmilk. I just really wish that I was able to provide all milk he needs without having to use formula. I know probably all of us that are in this tribe have felt angry at one time or another over the fact that we can't exclusively breastfeed and that there are moms out there that have great milk supplies but choose not to nurse. It just doesn't seem fair.


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## TurboClaudia

drema:

congratulations on the birth of your new baby boy & welcome baby colton! i definitely remembering feeling that resentment towards mamas who could make the choice to breastfeed but instead bottlefeed with formula. we used an sns with our son, too, and although the extra work of getting it set up and making sure the tube was placed correctly was such a pain and so difficult in the beginning, it definitely got easier as a couple of weeks passed. be gentle with yourself, mama, 'cause you also have your older child to respond to and be a parent to. i think it's wonderful that you are making all this effort to give your baby boy as much breastmilk as you can, and just know that every little drop is better than none at all. also, reserve the right to change your mind about how you are feeding your little one when circumstances and situations change in the future. you are the mama of your family, and you know what is best in the big picture for everyone involved.

i always felt really good about feeding first thing in the morning, and as the day wore on, i would get increasingly sad and frustrated about my body's lack of the ability to supply our baby with all the milk he needed at the time. but i promised myself i wouldn't make a snap decision, that if i truly began to feel like something was not the best way anymore, that i would give myself a couple of days at least to sit with making a decision and explore all the options. i remember there were some days where i just broke down and cried at why it had to be so hard, and then somehow i managed to get through to the next day and something felt different and that feeling passed. it returned a number of times, and it wasn't any easier to deal with each time.

please know that i'm thinking of you and sending you milky vibes and sending you peace and love...

~claudia


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## Vixxen

Thanks so much Claudia. I really appreciate your kind thoughts and words. We have had a pretty good day today. We had a weight check this morning and Colton has gained 4 ounces in the last 4 days! I feel pretty good about that b/c I know quite a lot of that weight he's gained is b/c of my milk. I also got some much needed rest and am not feeling quite so overwhelmed with life in general. I took a picture yesterday of Colton nursing. If you all would like to see here's a link to it: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17...oltonbfing.jpg


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## turtlewomyn

I am a former low supply momma, luckily fixing dd's tongue tie and some domperidone for a couple of months fixed it. I think I am ready to let go of my Good start coupons (the brand I would have used if I needed to start supplementing again). Does anyone use good start and want some coupons? I have six coupons that expire in Feb, Mar and April. I also have two similac coupons that just came in if anyone uses that.

Please PM me if you need them, first come first serve.


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## leahida

I am trying to decide whether or not to start domperidone. i ordered a bunch of it 2 weeks ago in a fearful moment and it's sitting in my room.

ds is gaining pretty well on 100% bm. we give him a supplement of about 3-4 oz of ebm a day. he gained 1 lb in the last 2 weeks, and has been gaining like that for the past month.

he is a really slow and "inefficient" nurser, and i guess my milk flow is slow too, so we nurse *all* the time... my LC doesn't think he needs speech therapy, that he'll grow into my nipple eventually, but has me doing these mouth muscle exercises with him. she told me that domperidone is "optional" for me, which makes it more difficult to decide.

basically, i'm wondering if i'd be taking dom just for my convenience, i.e. so that he might finish feeds more quickly if my milk flow was more abundant. of course i don't know that -- he just might have a high need to suck no matter how much milk there was. or if I was making more milk, it couldn't hurt to get his weight gain up more (he's in the 25th percentile).

what do y'all think? would it be overkill? should i just let things take the natural course?


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## Quirky

Leah, it couldn't hurt to try and see how things go. I don't think starting dom means you have to be on it for the rest of your nursing career, KWIM? If you feel like things go better, then you can taper off it and see what happens. It might help to get through this time where the size difference between your nipple and his mouth is causing issues. I used dom for a while but then when ds finally started nursing well enough to stimulate my supply better, I was able to stop taking it.

Also, if he is gaining well and his growth curve stays on track, don't worry about his percentile. As you know, it's not a grade, it's a statistical distribution chart, and one based on FF babies at that. DD has been somewhere in the 5-10th range since birth and we're totally not worried about it - 5 percent of babies have to be in the 5th percentile and below!


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## JillyD

Hi everyone...I'm new to the idea of low milk supply. After 3 months, my DD was diagnosed with failure to thrive (they think b/c of a weak suck she developed at some point) and for the past 2 days, i have been working really hard to increase my supply. I am feeling really down about it and wonder if I will be able to BF exclusively again. Right now we are supplementing with formula...she has gained 5 oz in about 36 hours...obviously she needed more food and I wasn't able to provide it for her.

It's really hard not having enough milk...i always though "no big deal, right? a little formula is okay" but now that it is a reality, it's killing me.

I'm pumping every hour, feeding in between, taking fenugreek, goats rue, and blessed thistle and trying to rest, be positive, and eat. Phew...this is exhausting.

So far, all i have noticed is a slight increase in the pumed milk supply over the past 24 hours (like, maybe an ounce)

thanks for listening..any hints any of you can give would be great.


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## JenInMpls

An ounce is a lot!!! I never, ever could pump more than one ounce combined per session and that was when my son wasn't nursing at all because he had hand, foot and mouth disease...

Yes, rest, be positive, eat, drink drink drink (NA beer? Hops is good for supply), if you like oats, eat some, they're supposed to be good for supply too... and top it all off with a heaping dose of forgiveness and patience and the knowledge that you are doing what's best for your daughter! Good luck









Leah - I read that some women who use Dom can use it until their supply goes up to where they want it and then ease off of it and their supply may not go back down. Perhaps you'll be one of those women. It was hard for me to start it at first too. Important, though, that you try it for a month before deciding whether it works for you or not - I guess it takes that long to get a good measure of success or need to change the dose...








Jen


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## MarcyC

I've also heard that Hops is good for supply. If you don't like the taste of beer, you can take Hops capsules. I've ordered a lot of my herbs from vitacost.com. At one point, I was on 8 different things - Fenugreek, Nettle, Blessed Thistle, Hops, Red Raspberry, Alfalfa. I can't remember them all. But I had all these bottles lined up on the kitchen counter.














I think I just checked the kellymom web site and ordered anything and everything that could increase supply and then took them like eating candy!

I've heard the same thing about weaning from Dom. I've heard actually that it's better to only take it until your supply goes up and then try to wean off of it. That hasn't worked for me.

My latest attempt at boosting my supply is drinking a "super greens" drink. The particular brand I'm taking is InnerLight SuperGreens. Ick Ick Ick!!! Ick Ick Ick!!! uke If I don't see a significant supply increase, it's going. Blech!!!

All for now, dear low-supply sisters!

Oh, almost forgot, thanks for the offer of Carnation Good Start checks. I don't use Carnation Good Start, right now we're using Enfamil LIPIL (regular, not "next step"). It seems to agree with her okay. And since she's almost 10 months in about a month we'll be weaning from supplements and increasing her solids. I can't wait for the day that I don't need that darned SNS!!!

(((((HUGS)))) everyone....milky vibes to all!


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## MarcyC

Jen,
How and when did you do it!? Megan is almost 10 months old I'm ready to wean from supplements, but keep her at the breast and increase solids. I know I've technically got 2 more months of "BM or formula should be her primary source of nutrition", but is 2 months going to kill her?

So, did you transition from supplements or go cold turkey? Right now Megan nurses at breakfast, lunch, dinner and bedtime with the SNS. She also eats those times as well. Mid-morning and mid-afternoon she doesn't snack at all (although I'm not against it). She just plays well until she's tired and then I rock her to sleep.

What I'd like to do is nurse her without the SNS in the morning followed by breakfast. Then maybe nurse her to sleep for her mid-morning nap. Let her eat lunch after that without nursing or supplement (maybe a sippy cup of water or juice). Then nurse her for her afternoon nap. Dinner same as lunch. Then let her have a light snack and nurse to sleep. All without supplements. Is that realistic or unreasonable? And again, should I ease into this or go cold turkey?

Let me know what your plan of action was! Thanks!


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## TurboClaudia

marcy: does she have a lot of interest in eating solid food? does she self-feed at least some of the time? i just watched for our little guy's cues for when to know to make the transition to more solid foods and less supplemental milk, and when he started eating solid food like a crazy man at around 9.5 months, i thought i'd give the no supplementing thing a try for a couple of meals. he didn't miss it and he didn't nurse less. pretty soon, it was 3 days later and the weekend and my partner was like, you stopped giving him supplement and he's okay? we both watched our son very carefully for signs that he was getting enough to eat/drink over the next few weeks, and we definitely felt like it was all going to be okay. he still nursed during the night a few times at that point and kept doing so until almost one year old when he started chewing on my nipple during the night instead of nursing so we ended up nightweaning.

i definitely thought about the breastmilk/ formula should be the primary source of nutrition for the first year, but i figured i was following his cues, and he was still nursing, albeit not as often and not as much as before, and we were watching to make sure he felt like he was getting enough to eat so we should be okay. i think being open to changing your plan if you see signs that you should is the best place to start from and then follow your instincts and see where it takes you.

~claudia


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## MarcyC

Thanks Claudia! Yes, she's super interested in solids. Not just in pureed food and cereal, but in crackers, cheerios, and pasta. She really seems to enjoy it all. We tried not supplementing last night. She likes to eat yogurt before going to bed so I gave her a larger cup and just nursed her to sleep. This morning she nursed without the SNS and had some rice cereal with pears. She ate a little more cereal and she usually eats, but she's not showing any signs of being upset. I'm still a little engorged (she didn't nurse last night) so I may pump some and offer it in a sippy cup in an hour or so if she gets irritable at all. I make my SNS's up in advance so now I've skipped two feedings. I may have to throw it down the drain! Oh Darn!!! Having to pour formula down the drain! hehehehe!!!


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## kpacitto

Wanted to list a few resources...

I am amongst the small population of women that have unresovable supply issues. At my best (with very diligent efforts) I have produced 20-25% supply. Early in life I learned that I would not be able to breastfeed my children on my own. As an adult who is a childbirth professional and lactation counselor, I am well aware of the many magnificent benefits that breastmilk has to offer and feeding my children anything else just didn't feel right. Before the birth of my second son, I sought to find breastmilk donors to help provide for him. Given the exorbitant cost of milk from national milk banks, I decided to pursue private milk donation.

Many people have been very skeptical of our decision to seek private milk donors and, in fact, we were recently on CNN, unknowingly under the disgusting headline of "Black Market Milk." We have tried to live in the most natural and healthy way possible and we feel that CNN completely misrepresented what we are doing, giving the impression that we are taking little to no precautions and also implying that we paid our donors- something we have never and will never do.

The reality is that we have followed the lead of the National Milk Banks with respect to the screening of our donors and even pasteurization of milk from donors that we have not personally met. Our pediatrician is supportive of our choice, as are nearly all of our family and friends.

The result has been astounding and literally takes my breath away at times&#8230;More than 20 women have provided milk for our child; all generous, selfless women that want only to give a little more of themselves to ensure that our son has the most exceptional nutrition available, for a lifetime of well-being. Most donors have been local and some have been long-distance.

While there are some risks of milk donation, they can be minimized by following milk bank procedures. We have gotten to know all of our donors and we believe them to be extremely healthy in all respects. Milk donation is something done out of love and compassion, and breastmilk can not be replicated. Baby "formula" is still highly experimental and genetically modified. We wanted nothing but the best for our child. It has never been able to fully compare to breastmilk.

While the methods have changed over time, women have literally been sharing milk for millennia. It is a most wonderful gift and we are so grateful and proud of the women who have shared their milk with us.

Our hope is that you might cover this topic in a more responsible way that reflects the sisterhood, the desire to parent naturally, and our goal of healthfulness for children. Please feel free to visit our website www.milkshare.com

Also, want to mention that I nurse using a lact-aid and it is EXCELLENT for supply issues. I believe that I would have produced less than 5-10% without using the lact-aid. The website to order is www.lact-aid.com. If you need to supplement, don't go without this great product!!!

Be well,
Kelley


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kpacitto*
Many people have been very skeptical of our decision to seek private milk donors and, in fact, we were recently on CNN, unknowingly under the disgusting headline of "Black Market Milk." We have tried to live in the most natural and healthy way possible and we feel that CNN completely misrepresented what we are doing, giving the impression that we are taking little to no precautions and also implying that we paid our donors- something we have never and will never do.
Kelley

Don't you hate the media sometimes.


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## Kaitnbugsmom

Hi all







Sorry for the derail,. but I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Judith and I am trying to re-build my supply for my six month old as her sensitivites are getting so much worse. I was never able to get much more than three ounces when she was younger {she's now six months-today in fact} but was forced to quit pumping due to our then-living situation. I discovered when I started trying to loose weight in November that I was still producing milk {increasing my water supply and dropping caffeine and found wet spots in my bra} I started using my Avent,. but have been unable to get more than a few drops with it. I am going to be buying a medela double select through amazon.com and am also considering buying domperidone via the net as my past low-supply issues both with this and my middle daughter were unaffected by fenugreek and mother's milk tea..

at any rate,. I would appreciate any and all advice. Please pardon the punctuation thing,. my keyboard is on it's last days....


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## MarcyC

kaitnbugsmom: you said you were pumping earlier. Has she ever taken the breast directly? I don't have a lot of experience exclusively pumping. I would say if she'll take the breast at all, then invest in a Medela SNS or lact-aid system. Both of those are "at the breast" supplementers.

Oatmeal is good for increasing supply. I eat it for breakfast every morning. Definitely try the domperidone. And Remember that a few drops is better than none at all!


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## Vixxen

A few months ago I saw an ad here on MDC for www.herblore.com I called Pam Caldwell who owns it and chatted with her about how I had trouble with my milk supply with my daughter and how I hoped it would be better with my son. She was really sweet and knowledgeable and told me about some of the products that her company carries. At the time I ordered her pregnancy tea which is wonderful btw and then last week I ordered some fenugreek from her and her nursing tincture. I have been amazed at how much the nursing tincture helps. It tastes really awful but after taking it a couple times day before yesterday I actually felt full yesterday morning. That is something that I don't think I've ever experienced. I only took it a couple times yesterday and unfortunately forgot to take it right before bed so I don't feel as full this morning but after 30 minutes of pumping i'm still getting milk which is pretty rare for me too. I am curious to see if I get the same results from her nursing tea which has the same ingredients in it. I think I will order some of that today. Hope this info helps someone. I know for me it's always exciting to find something that actually works


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## mamato2boys

So, we are nightweaning. He woke up last night at 4AM to BF but the rest of the week he slept though to 6AM. He's added a long late afternoon BF session, probably his way to keep supply up, smart guy







I haven't had any fullness or engorgement in the morning, which I was kind of hoping to experience J/K but he hasn't complained at all about not having enough milk! I think even with the night weaning we're going to continue BF for a while still









Thanks to all for the support last week!


----------



## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato2boys*
I think even with the night weaning we're going to continue BF for a while still

















that's awesome, Nicole







Jen


----------



## Kaitnbugsmom

She nursed at the breast at 3do in the special care nursery, and for the first two days at home she would nurse for a few minutes then refuse to return. Our home enviroment at that time {living with what we thought were friends} wasn't one that I wasn't allowed to nurse in, and after a month was not allowed to pump in...







Honestly, if I could just provide her with 8 oz a day I would consider it a huge miracle


----------



## TurboClaudia

kaitnbugsmom: your living situation sounds like it was really difficult... i assume you are not there anymore?

as for suggestions, getting a double electric pump is definitely a great place to start. and i also agree that an at-breast supplementer is a great way to have her eat. since she hasn't really nursed at the breast successfully, it will give her an opportunity to retrain her suck and latch. she might refuse it, however, since she is older and she will recognize the difference between how she was getting milk before. we ended up trying domperidone and i didn't really feel like i got much response from it either. in addition, it is a prescription medication and on tenuous ground here in the u.s. and i had excessive hunger and digestive issues with it so i was okay being done with it. eat oatmeal every day (even in cookies!), drink plenty of water, eat well, maybe try some other tinctures (i've heard great things about goats rue along with blessed thistle, especially for mamas who had little or no response with fenugreek).

sending you milky vibes...

~claudia


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## Kaitnbugsmom

we have our own place now, and might be trading up {from a 2 bd garage apartment to a 5 bedroom 3/4 of a full house} at the beginning of march...

For right now, we are looking at a Medela Double Select, since the only PISs I find on Ebay in our price range are 'gently used' according to their ads, and the pictures show them to be far from that.. {gently that is}


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## MaryJaneLouise

You can get an Ameda Purely Yours for $129 on ebay, brand new free shipping

http://cgi.ebay.com/AMEDA-Purely-You...QQcmdZViewItem

Or you can get used ones, and get a new HygeniKit if you are worried about viruses from previous user.

I think the PY is just as good as the PIS, if not better.


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## MarcyC

I've even seen Lactina's listed on ebay, but the price seems to go up pretty high (at least not in my price range). You may want to keep an eye out for them. My goal between now and baby #4 is to sell enough on ebay to have several hundred $ in my paypal account so I can use paypal existing funds to pay for a Lactina.


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## MarcyC

Yay!!! I just sold my lact-aid system on ebay. We just had better success with the SNS. Now I have a head start on my "Lactina Fund" for baby #4 (although I cannot even fathom getting pregnant again any time soon).


----------



## beachbaby

Can I join you all? I'm reluctant to admit that I need to belong to this tribe, but I think I do









Ah, long story...DD was born 11/8--6lbs 13 oz. Med-free birth but she was posterior. Had latch and sleepy-baby issues from the beginning. She didn't regain her birth weight as of 2 weeks and the ped. started threatening supplements and hospital. So, we saw an LC and used a nipple shield and ended up supplementing some. Weaned off both within 2 weeks when DD suddenly began to latch on (it was like she "woke up" overnight). But, I think at that point my supply had already started to suffer. I kept pumping 4-6X per day for the next week or so and things seemed to be getting better--DD gained 8 oz in one week. Drs. were happy. At 2 mo. appt. she weighed 9lbs 10 oz. Ped. seemed satisfied. Told me to stop worrying. But I just can't shake the idea that she should be gaining more/faster and that it's all due to supply.

Here's how my mind works (this is all making me a little







):

Reasons I don't think I have supply issues:
*baby is gaining (not fast, but she's not losing weight)
*has enough wet and poo diapers (poos are seedy and yellow; not green)
*meeting milestones--alert, smiling, cooing & babbling
*doesn't seem hungry after feedings (like she was in the beginning--hysterical crying)
*women in my family are all small--maybe it's normal for her?

Reasons I think I have low supply:
*slow weight gain
*bf issues in beginning--supplementing, nipple shield caused drop in supply
*never leak, feel letdown, see milk coming out of her mouth (I know these aren't really valid reasons for suspecting low supply, but it still adds to my emotional anguish)
*breasts only feel full after 3+ hours (between nighttime feedings)

Sigh. I don't know. I'm starting to pump again to see if it'll help. Upped oatmeal and fenugreek, too. I guess I just need some emotional support, too, from women who have experienced something similar. Everyone IRL either has had chubby babies or goes on and on about how small DD is. Neither of which helps very much.









Thanks for letting me ramble. Glad this thread is here.









--Rachel


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## Quirky

Rachel, welcome! Honestly, it doesn't sound to me like you really and truly have low supply. As long as your baby is gaining, you're doing great! Many babies - my dd included - are just small. My dd is around the 5th percentile for weight at 11 months - she's maybe 17 pounds?? But we have never been worried because she's met her milestones, always had adequate diapers, etc. She's just little.

I had low supply issues with my first because he didn't latch/nurse well for 3 months. So I had some catching-up to do, but it wasn't an intrinsic low-supply issue - I don't have thyroid issues, PCOs, hypoplastic breasts, breast reduction, etc. With my first I was eventually able to get up to speed by nursing LOTs, taking domperidone, fenugreek, blessed thistle, etc. Now, with my second, it has been easy to be scared even though we haven't had any nursing problems just because she is so little, esp. compared to my ds who is much bigger - but we've been reassured by just watching her and not the weight charts, KWIM?

If you feel like you need to pump, take supplements, etc. it's not going to hurt (just make sure you don't pump yourself into a state of OVER supply because that can cause a lot of problems, too). But the best way to up your supply to meet your dd's needs is to nurse, nurse, nurse (especially at night). It might also be helpful to find a good La Leche League group near you for support.

Keep in mind that the charts are often a) skewed because they include FF babies, who tend to be fatter and b) aren't a grade, they're a statistical distribution. In other words, 95th percentile doesn't equal an A+. It just means that 95% of all babies are likely to be smaller than the 95th percentile baby, and 5 percent of all babies are likely to be bigger. With all the millions of babies out there, with different genetic makeup - hey, a lot of them are going to be smaller than "average" and that's perfectly fine!


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## MarcyC

It doesn't sound to me like there are supply problems either. Maybe slow weight gain, but as long as she's meeting milestones, I wouldn't worry.

Okay...I have a question....

Why would OVER-supply be a problem?


----------



## beachbaby

Thanks for replying Quirky and MarcyC. I certainly hope it doesn't sound like I'm minimizing the experience of those who truly have low supply if I indeed don't. (not that either of your posts made me feel that way--I just don't want to come across as blase about it all, yk?)









Everything that happened with bfing in the beginning has just got me worried and I feel like if things are going better now, she should be gaining more. I know I have a tendancy to obsess, too, which is bad all around.









Thanks for listening and







to everyone struggling and persisting through their low supply issues.

--Rachel


----------



## leahida

Hi Rachel -- Your story is remarkably similar to mine, down to a med-free posterior birth, sleepy baby, early supplementation w/ formula, etc! DS did not regain his birth weight until 3.5 weeks.

I do not truly know if I have low supply problems either...it's all been kind of mysterious. Today DS is in 50th percentile for weight and 90th for height -- he's gaining approx. 8 oz a week for the past several weeks, has adequate diapers, is meeting milestones, etc. I think he is just a stringbean baby.

One thing is that he has a very "inefficient" suck. I've taken him for cranio-sacral therapy but it hasn't helped much. All the LCs and his ped say he will grow out of this. And he wants to nurse all the time during the day -- is it a supply issue, or is that just how he is? I also never leak, squirt milk, feel full except at night, etc. but I have heard that this is no indicator of supply since different women's breasts have different storage capacities.

I feel like I should pump more but it's hard since he wants to nurse all the time and I don't get much of a break to do so...I'm so uncoordinated that I have a hard time pumping on one side and nursing on the other.

I am now getting a full set of tests done to check for thyroid, PCOS, and other potential hormonal issues that might impact supply.

Quirky you are so right -- the charts are not a grade -- I have to remember that. When I see your DD she looks so totally healthy and great -- just goes to show how those charts are not much of an indicator of what's "normal."

Good luck, Rachel, and try not to worry. I know it's easier said than done and this is advice I really need to take myself. Truth be told, these breastfeeding troubles have had a big psychological impact on me.







I think mainly it's because I never imagined I'd have a problem, esp. having had an unmedicated childbirth. I am always worried that my supply will drop further, that I won't be able to ebf my son and the idea of that really causes anxiety.

Best of luck to you and it's great that you're reaching out!


----------



## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*

Okay...I have a question....

Why would OVER-supply be a problem?









I know, the grass always sounds greener...but oversupply can cause big problems.

Oversupply-mamas often have extremely gassy babies with frothy green poops who are very fussy because they're tanking up on foremilk, which is very high in lactose, and not getting enough hindmilk. This can also lead to slow weight gain because they're not getting enough calories. The babies can be sleepy, etc. because of the low calorie intake and the fact that their tummies get full so quickly.

Also, the letdown in oversupply situations can be so strong that babies splutter and choke, causing latch problems/aversions.

I know of one mama here whose oversupply was so bad that she battled mastitis pretty much continually - her breasts were always so swollen and engorged that her ducts were always plugged. She had to wean at 4 months and had enough pumped milk frozen to feed her dd for another 6 months or so.









Kellymom on forceful letdown/oversupply


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## Kaitnbugsmom

yikes...

Looks like I'll be getting a PIS instead of a double select. It's "only" an extra $75







. Theres' a great reason for the expense though...

*I'm now feeling full every 3-5 hours and expressing an ounce by hand every 5-6!* I am so thrilled. We'll be picking up the PIS on Saturday, assuming our tax check comes in tomorrow as scheduled......


----------



## mommy2angelgirls

Hi, I am new here and am having supply problems, can anyone give me some advice as the best way to proceed to try to track down the problem?

I was not able my first daughter due to the fact that she would not latch on and I couldn't pump enough milk for her. I had toxemia and she was born 3 weeks early via c-section, so I kind of chalked it up to the difficult cirmcumstances surrounding her birth. I did pump and give her what milk I made for 6 months.

I recently gave birth to my 2nd daughter VBAC w/no problems on December 31st, and I was really looking forward to EBF. Thankfully, she latched on fine in the hospital. She was very sleepy the first day, but she did nurse some. When I got her home the second day, she would nurse for 30 -60 minutes, then cry and root for more immediately after coming off the breast. We went through this all afternoon before I gave her some formula. She was so upset I didn't know what else to do.

I rented a Lactina pump the next day and have been pumping ever since. I am only pumping about an ounce every 2 - 3 hours or so. I can pump more at certain times of day, but the amount I can pump has not changed much since she was 2 weeks old. I've heard the amount you can pump isn't necessarily an indicator of low supply, but in my case I think it might be. She is never satisfied after nursing if I don't use an SNS. I've been told she has good latch, both by the nurses in the hospital and a lactation consultant.

I am nursing her with an SNS and pumping frequently, trying to get in usually between 8 - 10+ nursing and/or pumping sessions a day, and I am taking 4 capsules of fenugreek and 3 capsules of blessed thistle 3 times a day, as well as using More Milk special blend 3 times a day, and I just started taking 30 milligrams of domperidone 3 times a day a couple of days ago. My LC has told me that at this point I am basically doing all I can to increase my supply, and I may not be able to develop a full milk supply.

My LC recommended I have a thyroid test, I did and it came back normal. I have my postpartum doctors visit this Friday, and I would like to know what other tests or examinations I can request from my doctor to help pinpoint any physical causes behind my low milk supply.

I would like to at least attempt to find the reason behind the low supply. Since this is the second time it has happened, I am wondering if I have some sort of problem. If there is a problem, I would like to correct it if it is something that can be fixed, and if not, then at least I will know why I am not making enough milk. I am extremely disappointed because I was really looking forward to breastfeeding my daughter exclusively.

I'd appreciate any help that anyone can give me.

Thanks!

Madelyn


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## MarcyC

See if your doctor would be willing to do a before & after nursing prolactin & estrogen test. If you have unusually high estrogen levels, that can suppress prolactin levels. That is my problem. I still produce prolactin and can make milk, my prolactin levels are just low, so I don't produce much milk.

With all of the medical expertise around today, I'm surprised someone hasn't invented a milk-making pill!!!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*

With all of the medical expertise around today, I'm surprised someone hasn't invented a milk-making pill!!!

Why would they bother? Just give the baby a freakin' bottle of formula already


----------



## henhao

hi all,

do you know a reputable place where i can buy dom?

thanks!


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## mommy2angelgirls

I get mine from globaldrug.tv. Just got my latest supply yesterday. I've used them numerous times and never had a problem.

HTH!

Madelyn


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## twins10705

Hi,
I'm new to the forums, but so glad I found them!! I hand express milk for my twin boys...they are 4 months, but were 11 weeks early...so not even quite 2 months developmentally. They are 10lb and 11lb now which I think is good seeing how they were born weighing 2.2 and 2.12.
I have had a low milk supply from the beginning which I have been working so hard to increase. I now produce about 20-22 ounces or so per 24 hours(up from 12 ounces per day 2 months ago!)...though I would need about 44 to 48 to feed both babies exclusively. I have just started taking domperidone, but having some side affects -- hot flashes, dizziness, short of breath, shakiness....if it can increase the supply though I am willing to endure the side affects and hope they decrease over time. However, my main problem seems to be letdown...I really feel like I have a lot more milk in there...just can't get it out...tried to find where I can get oxytocin nasal spray on-line to no avail(yet) -- anyone used this?
My babies don't latch..the NICU never allowed me to breastfeed(and I didn't assert myself, although everybody there knew that this silly mom wanted to breastfeed her twins). I have used pumps so much that they really tore up my skin to the point where I can no longer hook myself up to a pump -- I get panicky! Hand expressing has increase my supply from 12 oz to 20 or more ounces per day so I will continue to use what works. I will continue to provide milk for as long as I continue to lactate even if the babies never latch....but I am hoping one of these days that the boys and I can share a close nursing relationship....maybe help me heal a bit from the early birth and NICU experiences.
Hope to learn and support other moms who struggle with supply!

--Amanda


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## MarcyC

Amanda,
Welcome to our tribe! Don't beat yourself up! You're providing as much milk as you can and you're doing great! Have you thought about Reglan? I had horrible side effects with Reglan, but no side effects with Domperidone. Maybe since you're having the side effects with dom, reglan would be a good choice for you. Have you tried the herbs available? www.motherlove.com has some good tinctures - more milk plus and more milk special blend. Also, try eating oatmeal for breakfast every morning and have an oatmeal cookie for an afternoon or evening snack. Oatmeal increases supply.

As for getting them to latch, have you tried an SNS or lact-aid? That may help.

I have one side where I feel let-down frequently and another side where I've NEVER felt let down. Once I even got 2 oz. from the pump out of that one side and never once felt let down. I posted awhile back about not feeling let-down and several women replied that they didn't feel it either, but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. I do notice that DD doesn't particularly care for that side and I wonder if there is too much work involved for her. That's where the SNS comes in handy.

Keep doing the best you can to get that precious liquid gold into your babies! You're doing a great job!


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## aussiemum

Amanda, are you able to access a good LC? I think she could possibly be quite helpful in getting your babies to learn to latch, especially if you are trying this in conjunction with an SNS. I don't know what your personal circumstances are, so please excuse if this sounds totally ignorant, but it seems to me that maybe you might try to get each baby individually used to the breast in conjunction with the SNS. If possible, give the other twin a botle (& he/she hopefully settles), & then you can focus on re-training one baby at a time. Mama, you are producing a goodly amount of breast milk through hand-expressing, & that is nothing to sneeze at!!







imo, there is no reason why you shouldn't have a good chance at getting your babies to latch & be able to provide what breastmilk you can through direct nursing (whilst supping with the SNS)..... I'm not trying to say that it will be easy-peasy, nor am I saying that it's some sort of guarantee that breatfeeding will suddenly just click if you just do the right things...... No, not at all. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think you're in with a good chance to get your bubs to latch, & I wish you all the best!! hth.


----------



## Kaitnbugsmom

Got my PIS, but only got a few drops on one side and two on the other.







I am feeling seriously defeated. viper keeps reminding me all I had to drink today was a half a lemonade and a bottled water. So here I sit drinking a 30 oz water, just finished 3 packets of Quaker Instant Maple & Brown Sugar oatmeal, trying to catch up from being gone all day. I've got a zillion posts and . I also got two 100 count bottles of Fenugreek from Vitamin World.


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## twins10705

Hi,
Thanks for the welcomes! I discontinued the domperidone early yesterday due to a bad PPD episode, I am not yet recovered..I am thinking the drug may be at least partly responsible. I really am the worst at tolerating medications...always have been. I am cutting certain things out of my diet as of today hoping it will help with my PPD.
I was given Reglan before the c-section, not exactly sure why -- and it was the most awful thing ever...it made me feel like I was being roasted alive and sick to my stomach and gave me a migraine like headache. I now tell doctors that I am allergic to it just to avoid the chance I might ever be given it again.
I have an SNS -- I tried using it many times..but the babies seemed completely aware of its presence and wouldn't latch...just wanted to accept the milk being dripped into their mouths, or to suck on the tube itself. I was so so disappointed because I really had my hopes up about it.
I do continue to at least offer a breast at least once a day to each baby -- sometimes they will latch on for a minute or two...they tend to get very frustrated with how slow the milk comes out compared to the bottle. Over several weeks I went through the trouble of weaning them off fast flow crosscut little nubbin nipples to med and slow flow NUK nipples. If I keep trying to nurse them and not giving them a bottle when they are hungry, they get hysterical...so I try to avoid that, I don't want them to see nursing as something negative.
The supplements I have tried are the organic mother's milk tea and fenugreek capsules..I also ate oatmeal every day for weeks...I haven't seen any real results(except for some icky body odor from the fenugreek), but that doesn't surprise me because after all I have been through I really believe the root of my insufficient supply is poor let down. I'm not sure what could help...its like having impotence of the boobs...failure to produce/perform. Then I read of mothers producing enough milk to feed 6 babies...or all the moms who produce just fine and just opt not to breastfeed...I get so secretly angry at the latter( and just can't help but compare myself to the former and wonder what is wrong with me)
The LC at the hospital were not very helpful...they basically told me that my preemies were too little to nurse....their only solution for my low supply was to "keep pumping"...I was pumping every 2-3 hours and rubbing the skin raw from compressing, squeezing and wringing the things trying to get the milk out. I feel like they just didn't believe I was pumping as often as I claimed. Its like they have never dealt with a case like mine...surely there must be others with my dilemma...but maybe they give up out of frustration and complete lack of options?
I hold the babies a lot and try to think happy thoughts when I express milk...but my letdowns are few and don't usually last long enough to get too much out.
All for now -- babies crying..thanks again for welcoming me!

-Amanda


----------



## scubamom

hi ladies
well i am sure to be joining you again soon, as baby #2 due in a few weeks, and i am not at all confident in my breasts ability, esp after 10 months of domperidone, sns, formula, herbs, tea etc etc last time. sorry not filling you in entirely but it upsets me too much to think about it right now, as stressing enough as it is about it. Broke down when spoke to a LL leader last week, she must think im a total nut job









Its just that i stumbled upon this site, anybody tried it???? http://breastea.com, i tried mothers milk tea last time that helped, but i didnt want to rush and try this if wont work.


----------



## leahida

Amanda -- wow, Mama, you are an inspiration...







hang in there, you're doing an amazing job. I do have one suggestion re: pumping. I don't know what kind of pump you have, but my pump was just tearing up my nipples until I got bigger sized flanges, and that made all the difference in the world in terms of comfort. I was pumping through horrendous agony fior 2 weeks and didn't even know there were other sizes until an LC mentioned that to me. I'm sure you've looked into that already but just wanted to throw it out there...

So...I am now in the sad position of admitting that I no longer have enough milk for DS's needs. It's like I just dry up as the day goes on. I feel so terrible. By late afternoon/early evening he screams in frustration because there is barely any milk coming out of either breast. He pops on and off the breast and just cries in hunger. This goes on pretty much continuously until he goes to sleep around 10 pm. For a while I thought it was just the normal evening fussy time but now I don't think so.

I can't even pump enough to give him much more than a 2 oz supplement -- by mid-day I am barely getting 1/4 ounce out of both sides--and now that he's older that's no longer enough to tide him over until I "recharge." Having tried all the herbs, I am now on my second day of domperidone and pray that it works.

In case it doesn't, I'm also trying to see if I can secure some donated bm. Have people here had any luck with that? I feel a bit awkward asking bfing women I know as I don't want to put them on the spot. DS's poor little gut has just been through so much, w/ me being on 3 rounds of antibiotics for mastitis recently (we are both taking probiotics), that I hate to introduce even a little formula. But I may have to if the dom doesn't kick in soon, or if I can't get any donated bm...


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## MarcyC

Amanda - Hugs, mama!!! I can certainly understand your feelings! It's so difficult when we desperately want to BF and are doing everything we can think of and it just isn't happening! I understand feeling so sad with mamas who have no problems and just choose to FF for some reason I don't understand. I don't understand how someone could breastfeed, but would choose not to. It just doesn't make sense! You hang in there! My baby is 10 months (today) and we've been using an SNS the whole time. It's a pain, but it gets easier.

Leah - I'm going to be getting some milk from an MDC mama who lives nearby. Check you're tribal area and see if there is a mom in your area who can help. But just to give you peace of mind, I've used formula in the SNS and DD hasn't had any bad reactions to it. As a matter of fact, breastmilk is so awesome that even just a little bit and help heal the digestive track if something else is upsetting it. Dr. Newman has done some research on supplementing with solids as early as 3 mos. since breastmilk so good for the digestive system and helps prepare it for other things. I'm paraphrasing that, but all in all, he says breastmilk is pretty amazing stuff. So if you end up needing to use formula in the SNS then just make yourself feel better know you are providing all the bm your body can possibly make right now.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
Hi,
I'm not sure what could help...its like having impotence of the boobs...failure to produce/perform. Then I read of mothers producing enough milk to feed 6 babies...or all the moms who produce just fine and just opt not to breastfeed...I get so secretly angry at the latter( and just can't help but compare myself to the former and wonder what is wrong with me)

-Amanda









Just wanted to say I've been there. You are doing great -- preemie twins are SO difficult to keep up with. There's still time to try to get them to latch -- how preemie were they? Many times preemie mom's milk doesn't come in until their due date.


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*







Just wanted to say I've been there. You are doing great -- preemie twins are SO difficult to keep up with. There's still time to try to get them to latch -- how preemie were they? Many times preemie mom's milk doesn't come in until their due date.

Hi, thanks for the support







They were 29 weekers born this past October...so the milk is overdue







They latch on for a minute or so every once in a while, so there is definately still hope....maybe my let down issues will resolve if/when that happens.

--Amanda


----------



## operamommy

Hi mamas! I've haven't posted in this thread before but have been reading along for a bit. As you see by my siggy, I'm relactating with my almost 4 month old ds. We're using a lact-aid for all feedings, and it's going well so far.

I've been taking a fenugreek mixture for a few weeks, and have had constant bleeding for the last week. I know it promotes menstrual bleeding, so do I just deal with it or try dom? I've seen an increase in my supply (gone from 1 or 2 drops last week to covering the bottom of the bottle when I combine both sides this week while pumping) so I don't want to *not* take anything at this point. Any ideas? Thanks!


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## MaryJaneLouise

I just started taking this product:

Nutritional Yeast Flakes Red Star Vegetarian

http://store.thecatalog.com/2455.html

(I got mine at the local health food store)

And WOO HOO! Went from pumping @ 6 oz to at least 10 this morning! It took about 3-4 days to ramp up, and is causing a LOT of intestinal gas







but man-oh, I think it's worth it!

Hope this continues!!!!!


----------



## mommy2angelgirls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
See if your doctor would be willing to do a before & after nursing prolactin & estrogen test. If you have unusually high estrogen levels, that can suppress prolactin levels. That is my problem. I still produce prolactin and can make milk, my prolactin levels are just low, so I don't produce much milk.

With all of the medical expertise around today, I'm surprised someone hasn't invented a milk-making pill!!!

What should these values be? I had blood work done last Friday, got the results back today, and my prolactin was 161.1 and the estradiol was 31. The nurse wasn't sure what was normal for a breastfeeding woman. The prolactin level seems low to me, but I'm not a doctor so I don't know for sure. I've been trying to do some research to find out but so far haven't turned up anything.

Thanks!

Madelyn


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## Shell_Ell

I'm just popping in to give you ladies a big group hug, and to tell you all how great you are doing by sticking with it and trying so hard.

I have had very low supply since my son was born. With alot of work, trying everything under the sun and finally Domperidone, I am about 75% nursing at 5 months old, and going strong. It can be done! I swear there were so many times I would sob about this. I still consider myself lucky each and every time I get to nurse my son.

Hang in there ladies. You are doing fantastic.


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaitnbugsmom*
Got my PIS, but only got a few drops on one side and two on the other.







I am feeling seriously defeated. viper keeps reminding me all I had to drink today was a half a lemonade and a bottled water. So here I sit drinking a 30 oz water, just finished 3 packets of Quaker Instant Maple & Brown Sugar oatmeal, trying to catch up from being gone all day. I've got a zillion posts and . I also got two 100 count bottles of Fenugreek from Vitamin World.

Kaitnbugsmom: I know that it is much quicker to use the instant, but somewhere along my low-supply path it was mentioned that I needed to use the "real" oatmeal. I think it was the LC that mentioned it, but I'm not a 100% sure









Leahida: As I was reading the board lastnight and wondering why my nipples were throbbing I came across your post about the flanges...







Like *duh* that was why my nipples were throbbing... in my hast, I put on the too small flange







: .... But after reading your post and realizing why I switched and did indeed get more milk














So Thanks!! for your post









Can anyone tell me what the side effects of domperione (sp??) are... I'm doing alfalfa, blessed thistle, and a Nursing Tincture from Herb Liore and am getting some more but not really much more than about 6 oz a day for my dd. Also, anyone have a good supplement to take for fatigue?? I am fighting exhaustion daily and as dd gets older, I don't know if I can get her to take an am nap. Any and all help greatfiully recieved.


----------



## leahida

Quote:


Originally Posted by *red17*

Leahida: As I was reading the board lastnight and wondering why my nipples were throbbing I came across your post about the flanges...







Like *duh* that was why my nipples were throbbing... in my hast, I put on the too small flange







: .... But after reading your post and realizing why I switched and did indeed get more milk














So Thanks!! for your post









Yay, red17! If I can help one woman avoid the pumping hell I went through then it was worth it!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *red17*
Can anyone tell me what the side effects of domperione (sp??) are...

Here is a good domperidone info link, which includes side effects:
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/19a-domperidone1.html


----------



## PicnicBear

Hi Ladies,

I thought this was probably the best place to post the question, rather than start a new thread. Excuse me for only skimming through some posts here -- I did a search and didn't see anything on this. I'll try to make this short and sweet.

DS has been nursing great since birth. He is now 3 months and I just had my first "real" period last week. We also came down with thrush at the same time and are treating that. I have read all about how supply can drop for a day or two before/during the period, but this whole week it's been a lot lower. I'm working with an awesome LC and am we are limping along here. I'm doing some herbs, relaxation, Ca/Mg, etc. My main question is: has anyone ever heard of the supply NOT going back up to what it was after ovulation starts. My LC says I had a good supply before so I can have it again. The only other difference is that I have lost some water and fat weight because of the anti-yeast diet (no refined stuff).

Thanks so much!


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *red17*
Can anyone tell me what the side effects of domperione (sp??) are...

I can tell you what side affects I have, but most women I have talked to have told me that they didn't notice any side affects. I have a family history of more extreme reactions to any drug, so keep that in mind. My S/A were moderately bad headache, heart palpitations, tremors, agitation, and fatigue...I'm not sure if it is related or not, but about 48 hours after I started taking it again, I had the worst PPD episode ever and it has taken days to recover...not sure if I am fully recovered actually. After about 18 hours on it(so two doses of two small pills) my let down was great so I was getting most of the milk...then the next day, I had like NO letdown.

Just wondering -- I am the only one with this problem: if yesterday I had good letdown(and I did), then today I have hardly any letdown at all no matter how much I squeeze and stimulate and compress. About once every 7-10 days I get a good(or the better word is probably "normal") letdown day where I feel so confident things are looking up and so happy that my babies are getting more milk than usual..then the next day I am lucky to get half the amount I got the day before...then the next days build back up to my average amount until eventually I have another good let down day and the vicious cycle continues! Why can't I just be normal? It seems to me on those "good" days, I use up all my stored oxytocin or whatever other hormone I need to let down and it takes my body much longer than it is supposed to to replenish that....but who knows....

--Amanda


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*
I just started taking this product:

Nutritional Yeast Flakes Red Star Vegetarian

http://store.thecatalog.com/2455.html

(I got mine at the local health food store)

And WOO HOO! Went from pumping @ 6 oz to at least 10 this morning! It took about 3-4 days to ramp up, and is causing a LOT of intestinal gas







but man-oh, I think it's worth it!

Hope this continues!!!!!









I just bought some -- how much are you taking? Please let us know if it continues to work for you.

thanks,

Amanda


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Okay...I have a question....

Why would OVER-supply be a problem?

hmm...in a way I can sorta see how this would be annoying if I imagine really hard....but I would love this, I would gorge my babies with breastmilk on demand and build up a HUGE freezer stash...when they start solids I could make them breastmilk yogurt and butter...fresh breastmilk cheese....I could make our family breastmilk soap to last for years...pudding with breastmilk....sorry if I sound weird, but I think more women should take advantage of the gift that an oversupply can be! Why use cow's milk when you have plenty wonderful human milk to go around??! Now...back to my breastmilk famine of a reality...

--Amanda


----------



## aussiemum

twins10705- I am cracking up at the idea of breastmilk cheese!









My but a sense of humour about the situation sure helps sometimes, doesn't it?









And I understand & share the frustration of knowing that sometimes perfectly good breastmilk just goes to 'waste'.... It's like I want to shake them & say 'Don't you know what a precious resource that breastmilk is?!?!!'







:


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
I just bought some -- how much are you taking? Please let us know if it continues to work for you.

thanks,

Amanda

Update on yeast flakes -- still going strong on the supply. im taking 2 heaping teasppons, 2 day.


----------



## indeospero

Red: The biggest side effect I had from domperidone was joint pain/stiffness, particularly upon waking in the mornings. This only lasted for a few weeks, though, and faded pretty much entirely after that. Some people report headaches, but I did not experience this. Oh -- and anovulation (I am taking 120mg/day)! But I consider this a benefit...









Twins: I have the same aggravating experience with cycles of good supply. It drives me nuts. For a few days I'll have these fantastic, babe-choking letdowns, and I get all happy and relieved... then, poof! No letdowns at all for 5 days or so. Repeat. I'm grateful for the good days, but I really, really wish I could figure out how to make every day a good day! Obviously, my breasts are capable of it sometimes, so why not *all* the time, KWIM? Grrr!







: Commiserating with you.


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*
Update on yeast flakes -- still going strong on the supply. im taking 2 heaping teasppons, 2 day.

This is great...just curious, you mentioned you were getting like 10oz per pumping session is that right? How often are you pumping total?

thanks,

--Amanda


----------



## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *indeospero*
Twins: I have the same aggravating experience with cycles of good supply. It drives me nuts. For a few days I'll have these fantastic, babe-choking letdowns, and I get all happy and relieved... then, poof! No letdowns at all for 5 days or so. Repeat. I'm grateful for the good days, but I really, really wish I could figure out how to make every day a good day! Obviously, my breasts are capable of it sometimes, so why not *all* the time, KWIM? Grrr!







: Commiserating with you.

Strange...you get a few good days then like 5 days of nada....I get one good day then 1-2 days of nada...sounds like the same kind of problem...I really wish I could get my hands on some of that oxytocin nasal spray...at least I could rule out "oxytocin deficiency" as the problem. On your good days how much would you say you are getting?

--Amanda


----------



## MarcyC

It's been awhile since I posted so I'll try to touch on everything.

Someone asked me what normal prolactin levels are: I used to have a page bookmarked that had all the normal prolactin levels. It listed the levels for a non-pregnant woman and then the levels for a pregnant or lactating woman. Your ob/gyn should know what normal levels are. I'll try doing a google search later to see what happens.

I've ordered those yeast flakes. Hope they work! I also ordered some new Fenugreek rather than the typical stuff from GNC or vitamin world, I orderd this stuff.

Planetary Formulas® Fenugreek Full Spectrum(tm) 600mg 60 tabs from www.vitaglo.com

The description says this: Full Spectrum(tm) Fenugreek combines a traditional fenugreek seed powder with a fenugreek seed extract rich in galactomannan fibers. Research suggests that fenugreek helps support healthy blood sugar and insulin levels when used as part of your diet.

I have no idea how this differs from the Fenugreek I get at GNC, but I just liked the word "galactomannan". It makes me think of milk...of making more....









I ordered more dom. I've always ordered from globaldrug in New Zealand, but tried another pharmacy. I think it's out of Canada - it's www.healthcarepharma.com. Their Dom is only $5.00 a box and that includes shipping. It hasn't come in yet. I'll let you know when/if it does so we can see if that site is reputable.

Well, I guess I should quit browsing on line and go back to being a mommy!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I have no idea how this differs from the Fenugreek I get at GNC, but I just liked the word "galactomannan". It makes me think of milk...of making more....










VERY interesting about galactomannan. I'm so compulsive I googled it









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactomannan

Quote:

In order of increasing number of mannose-to-galactose ratio:

* fenugreek gum, mannose:galactose ~1:1
* guar gum, mannose:galactose ~2:1
* tara gum, mannose:galactose ~3:1
* locust bean gum or carob gum, mannose:galactose ~4:1

Galactomannans are often used in food products to viscosify the water phase.

Galactomannans are used in foods as stabilisers. Guar and LBG are comomnly used in ice cream to improve texture and reduce ice cream meltdown. Locust Bean Gum (LBG) is also used extensively in cream cheese, fruit preparations and salad dressings. Tara is seeing growing acceptability as a food ingredient but is still used to a much lesser extent than guar or LBG. Guar has the highest usage in foods, largely due to its low and stable price.
I've been scratching my head a LOT lately about my variable supply, some days it's almost good and other days it's absolutely crummy. I didn't think about carob (I eat big doses once in a while, as a substitute for chocolate (allergy)) or guar gum, which I use sometimes in baking (wheat allergy). Hmmmmmm........


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *indeospero*
Red: The biggest side effect I had from domperidone was joint pain/stiffness, particularly upon waking in the mornings. This only lasted for a few weeks, though, and faded pretty much entirely after that. Some people report headaches, but I did not experience this. Oh -- and anovulation (I am taking 120mg/day)! But I consider this a benefit...









Twins: I have the same aggravating experience with cycles of good supply. It drives me nuts. For a few days I'll have these fantastic, babe-choking letdowns, and I get all happy and relieved... then, poof! No letdowns at all for 5 days or so. Repeat. I'm grateful for the good days, but I really, really wish I could figure out how to make every day a good day! Obviously, my breasts are capable of it sometimes, so why not *all* the time, KWIM? Grrr!







: Commiserating with you.

Inseospero and Twins: I haven't tried dom yet... but I too have some days that my letdown is ok and then days it sucks - no pun intended - ... then again, this on again off again letdown can happen during one day so who knows??? As long as I can get at least 3-4 oz a day I know she's getting some..., it makes me very sad though not to be able to give her more like 8-12 oz. On those infrequent times that she will nurse I'm hoping that she gets more than my pump. I've heard that a baby can get lots more than a pump ... maybe as high as 50 -75% more... so I can hope right?? (The smilies are not working now .. bummer, I like them)

I'm battling leg cramps lately ... I think due to taking lots of alfalfa caplets, but it could be a combination of the herbs too. ... Dr is researching it for me and is willing to try and help me find a way to avoid the cramps while still taking the herbs - YEAH, finally a Dr that understands and wants to HELP me continue to bf... last doc (male was the only one avail) looked at me strangely when I told him I was taking herbs to increase bm for dd so that she didn't have to supplement w/so much of that Sima--- ShiT! Guess his mommy weaned him at birth boooooo hisssss.

Anyway, current Dr (a woman - duh) is great. I'm just hoping that she can find the right combination of things that will still allow me to take the good herbs for bfing... the reduction of alfalfa (even though the LC says it's one of the lowest lactation-helpful herbs) has impacted my supply and is ticking me off. She also had not heard anything good about roobios tea... and yet someone on this lowsupply link (I think) recommended it and said it was helping... when I tried it I thought it helped... but then I had also just added the blessed thistle.... Isn't it strange how some of us are willing to stand in the town square braless if it would give us good milk supply and others who may have great supply are so willing to "take a pill to make it dry up"... makes me so mad I could puke!


----------



## indeospero

It's comforting to hear that others have these cycles of good then not-so-good supply/letdown. I really relish the good days, but I wish I could understand what keeps all days from being that good!

I should clarify that I know the cause of my low supply is prior breast reduction surgery. No mystery when you know that over 2lbs. were removed from each of your breasts!







Oh well.

twins: I don't know how to quantify the difference, since I never pump, but on the good days dd is choking on the letdown, nurses for a couple of minutes after that, and is totally satisfied. On the worst days, she nurses pretty much constantly, with no noticeable letdown, to make up for the lack of volume. Fortunately, since I am at home, this is an option for me... since dd has started solids, and thanks to v. frequent nursing, we've been able to quit the lact-aid and formula, even on rough days.

red, I totally hear you on the frustration with those who don't try very hard, or at all.







It's lucky that I don't have to encounter those women much (very pro-BF circle and region







). I tell people my story when they ask, and I think hearing about my intense struggles sometimes changes people's idea of what it means for BF to fail, or what constitutes "trying hard enough." I think it's crucial for mothers to think of BF as non-negotiable; otherwise, too many [comparatively minor] problems can lead to its demise. If I had, for one minute, thought there was any other option for us, I wouldn't be here now.

Stepping down off my soapbox now...

Sending out milky vibes to all.


----------



## henhao

I am deciding to be at peace with not being able to provide enough for DD. If we were together all the time, we wouldn't have this problem. I have SO much trouble getting milk with the pump.

There's nothing I haven't tried at this point unless it's doing a handstand and singing yankee doodle dandy.

When people talk about squirting MM into a baby's eye, I think "huh?" It's rare I can get milk to squirt out of me let alone in a specific direction.

Well, DD made it to 6 months with MM. When I've had off from work, I EBM'd her and she appeared satisfied. Yet when I went back to work, I didn't notice more being expressed from the pump like some other mamas report after spending lots of time with their DCs.

I feel good about what I did. I learned a lot from this experience. I learned giving formula isn't as horrible as it's made to seem. I learned not to worry so much. I learned that things will work out -- maybe not how I want -- yet
they do work out.

In the end, I have a happy and healthy baby who knows how to turn off a light switch. That's not bad!


----------



## MarcyC

henhao - You're AWESOME, mama!!! You've come to such a great place (and your baby is smart if she can already turn off a light switch) by accepting the circumstances. Feel good knowing you did the best you possibly could. You gave it a sincere and honest effort and you've gone WAY above and beyond what some mamas would have done.

I honestly can say that with my first failed BF'ing experience, I don't think I every fully forgave myself. I continued to feel like such a failure. That's why with this baby I was so committed to the SNS. Not only does the nursing/SNS help me now, but I think I'm still healing over my lost BF'ing relationship. Does that sound strange? Anyway, forgiving yourself is so key and I think you're there and I truly admire you! What a mama!!!!

------> Someone was asking about side effects of dom. I've had NONE!!! I feel great, I make more milk and I'm happy. However, the side effects of Reglan....














uke







. You get the idea.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Well, I'm having a low-supply day, and no clue why. Barely got 5 oz this morning, and am :cry :sad I've been doing the usual, I guess the yeast flakes are not magic for me but I'm taking them anyway, they are a good source of b vitamins







Hope I didn't make anybody waste money and/or hope on this, I'm curious if they do work for anybody else, let me know?

Milky vibes to all.


----------



## MarcyC

Well, at the low price, I'm at least willing to try the yeast flakes...can't wait until mine come in. I've heard of people saying that eating two krispy kreme original glazed donuts per day helps their supply, so I imagine the yeast flakes help in the same way - whatever way that is. I can't believe DD is over 10 months and I'm still looking for that magic combination of drugs/herbs, etc...


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I can't believe DD is over 10 months and I'm still looking for that magic combination of drugs/herbs, etc...

I know. Just our luck we'll find the magic combo just as they are readin to wean


----------



## henhao

Oh my gosh.

Just when I'd accepted I'd have to do what I can with what I have, I finally know what people talk about when they say milk squirts everywhere! DD was being a little fussy at the breast. I could feel a plug and was hoping she'd clear it cuz usually *nothing* can clear a plug except for DD.

I asked DH to take her when she was fussy and he did...and then milk squirted me in the face. Then some more squirted out on my hand and my palm was covered. Then I grabbed the medela collection bottle, went out to the hallway and **hand expressed** 1 oz into a bottle in no time flat.

That dom works for me. I didn't even remember to take it today. I took 3 pills for two days and then nothing for 1.5 days. Whoa.

Just wanted to report in...to say that dom works AND I've had no side effects.


----------



## carrietorgc

just butting in - yay deborah!!! wow, just think what will happen once you take it every day







- hopefully no more pumping woes!!


----------



## leahida

Well, since ds only gained 4 oz in the last two weeks, and I can't pump more than 5 oz a day on a good day (which we're already giving him), I finally broke down yesterday and started him on formula supplements. Maybe some mamas could have held out longer, but I just couldn't bear to see him hungry for one more day.

Both my ped (who is very bfing friendly) and my LC (who is very reluctant to suggest formula) agree that this is an appropriate course of action. He's still getting the vast majority of his calories from my milk, but just needs a little extra to get him gaining weight. I am giving it to him via SNS, so he is still at my breast all day. This is the second day of using the SNS and it is actually not as difficult/complicated as I had imagined.

I cried a lot yesterday--I guess I was finally accepting that I can't make enough milk for my son to thrive. I've tried everything-- fenugreek, oatmeal, dom, lactogenic foods, More Milk Plus, ad infinitum, without much luck. But today I feel much better about it. He is like a different baby. So much happier and he is actually sleeping better and in a quiet alert state most of the time, vs. crying and screaming hysterically. I am still grieving that I can't have an exclusive bfing relationship with him, but I will continue to give him as much mama's milk as I can, for as long as I can, and try to let go of the guilt.

We are still trying to rule out other causes for the slow weight gain, i.e. reflux, but given the change in his behavior since getting the additional supplements, I think the poor little guy was mostly hungry.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
I cried a lot yesterday--I guess I was finally accepting that I can't make enough milk for my son to thrive.









Leah, I've been there done that. You are doing so good to be working so hard, especially using the SNS which is a PIA







.

Update on me -- I had a pretty good pumping day yesterday. My supply kind of goes up & down. I think the yeast flakes I talked about earlier are doing some good. I'm also taking some carob powder mixed in with my hot rice cereal everyday, and I think that's helping a little bit.

And the DS that I sleep with had a HUGE wet diaper this morning







so he must have gotten quite a bit last night. I love it when I can't even remember nursing the night before


----------



## indeospero

Leah, how well I remember the emotional first days of supplementing my dd. I felt terrible, but also so relieved to know that she was getting all she needed. She actually started nursing so much better after we started using the Lact-Aid, and she changed a lot, since she wasn't fighting hunger all the time.

FWIW, I think you are *absolutely* doing the right thing. This is what formula is really for, and it sounds like you don't even need very much of it. Using the SNS is the best possible course of action, since you are giving your ds what he needs *without* compromising your supply at all. Using an at-breast supplementer actually *supports* BFing, and will help your supply to build while keeping your sweet ds at the breast, where he belongs. I know you already know all this, and that's why you chose the SNS in the first place







, but I just wanted to give you a big







and a







.

Let us know how it's going! Enjoy boobtubin'







.


----------



## leahida

Thanks for your support, Meg and MaryJaneLouise









MaryJaneLouise - Glad to hear you had a good pumping day! I hope the yeast flakes keep working for you...

Here's an update: DS went from 50th percentile for weight to 5th in 6 weeks. Last Friday, when I asked how much formula I should give him, both the LC and the ped said at this point to give ds "as much as he will take." I would say he's gotten an average of 12 oz (7-8 oz formula, 4-5 oz pumped bm) per day. From last Tues. to today, he gained 13 oz. Seems like he has gone from gaining too slow to gaining too fast! I know what the average weight gain/week should be for ebf babies, but not for supplemented babies... anyway, I am very confused here. I feel so incompetent at this feeding thing -- either he is starving, or getting too much!

How did you make the switch to supplementing? Did you give a set amount per day? How much did you put in the SNS per feeding? I always put more rather than less than I thought he'd need in the SNS, thinking ds would stop drinking when he had had enough, but he seems to always finish what is there!

I feel like we need to have a plan. Any suggestions from SNS mamas would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
...Here's an update: DS went from 50th percentile for weight to 5th in 6 weeks. Last Friday, when I asked how much formula I should give him, both the LC and the ped said at this point to give ds "as much as he will take." I would say he's gotten an average of 12 oz (7-8 oz formula, 4-5 oz pumped bm) per day. From last Tues. to today, he gained 13 oz. Seems like he has gone from gaining too slow to gaining too fast! I know what the average weight gain/week should be for ebf babies, but not for supplemented babies... anyway, I am very confused here. I feel so incompetent at this feeding thing -- either he is starving, or getting too much!
...
I always put more rather than less than I thought he'd need in the SNS, thinking ds would stop drinking when he had had enough, but he seems to always finish what is there!

I feel like we need to have a plan. Any suggestions from SNS mamas would be greatly appreciated.

Leah,
It sounds like you and I are supplementing about the same. I had to ff our dd in the beginning because I had almost no milk.







and the ped said to offer her as much as she wanted since she was losing wt. I don't recall how old your little one is but if he takes what you offer and has the right number of wet diapers, I'd say you're doing fine.







My dd is now just over 6 months old. The last wt check she was just over 14 lbs







which was ok by her ped. You mentioned that you know what is a normal wt gain for ebf babies... what is it? I've not found that info anywhere and am interested. Although, after months of feeling attached to the pump and looking for the right herb solution I was starting to get more milk







for dd BUT, I now have to dump it since I through my back out







and am on flexerall to help with the muscle spasms.

Just when I thought I was getting somewhere, I now have to watch all that lovely milk go down the drain







I know it's what I need to do to be able to take care of my darlin girl, but it really makes me sad. This last wk has been awful. The pain in my back was so bad I couldn't stand... nevermind hold her and walk







to her changing stand. I finally gave in and went to emergency on Wednesday and they gave me pain meds via a drip ... then the flexerall for the next week and a half. Thursday am I couldn't stand up - must have slept on my side too long. After laying flat again for an hour I finally managed to stand up and get to the bathroom. I've spent the last 4 days flat on my back in bed... I feel so awful for my dd that she has to stay in bed with me but I just can't carry her right now.







At least she got to go out w/dh to a basketball game on Sat and then both church and a bb game today







. I pray that tomorrow will be much better on my back and that I can sit in the rocker with her at least, and that I will be able to pump (and dump) while she sleeps.... It's torture when she tries to lift my shirt.... I just cuddle her a lot more as I feed her a bottle of formula and now, instead of cursing the formula, I thank God it's there.

You're doing the best using the sns














and it sounds like your ds is happier with the additional food. Pat yourself on the back mamma, you are keeping your son at your breast, exactly where he should be!


----------



## leahida

nak

red17, thanks for your post. i always feel like i'm doing things wrong, but ds does seem immensely happier -- is all smiles, and is sleeping so much better, compared to the daily nightmare we used to go through with his screaming and crying all the time. looking back, i feel so awful that ds was hungry. At the time we were not sure, thought he might have had reflux, which was causing the crying, and can also inhibit weight gain. Now, I am pretty sure it was just hunger.























Quote:


Originally Posted by *red17*
Leah,
You mentioned that you know what is a normal wt gain for ebf babies... what is it? I've not found that info anywhere and am interested.

Kellymom.com has a good section on ebf baby weight gain:
http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns...ight-gain.html

Quote:


Originally Posted by *red17*
Although, after months of feeling attached to the pump and looking for the right herb solution I was starting to get more milk







for dd BUT, I now have to dump it since I through my back out







and am on flexerall to help with the muscle spasms.

can't imagine how awful it must feel to have to pump and dump. i'm sorry you're in such terrible pain! here is an unsolicited suggestion: have you tried acupuncture?? i had terrible low back pain, spasm, etc. from 3 herniated discs, and my quality of life was terrible. i was zonked out all the time on flexeril and taking huge doses of ibuprofen. then i started a weekly course of acupuncture, cut out sugar and refined flour from my diet (there is a connection!), and within 4 months I was pain-free. In the past year and 3 months (and through my entire pregnancy!), i've only had 2 very brief flare-ups, nothing like how it used to be. HTH! pm me if you want more info.


----------



## indeospero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
Did you give a set amount per day? How much did you put in the SNS per feeding? I always put more rather than less than I thought he'd need in the SNS, thinking ds would stop drinking when he had had enough, but he seems to always finish what is there!

I feel like we need to have a plan. Any suggestions from SNS mamas would be greatly appreciated.

The most important thing is that your ds drink to satisfaction, which is hard to quantify. You want to see a supplemented baby gain about the same as an EBF baby, not too much more, ideally. 13 oz in less than a week (if I got that right) is really a lot, but it's possible he is "catching up" a little. OTOH, you very well might be oversupplementing. My dd always took too much from the Lact-Aid if I let her. She'd drink 3-4 oz (in addition to whatever BM she was getting), spit up *a lot*, then not want to nurse again for hours. I learned that babies can, in fact, overfeed even from at-breast supplementers. So here's what I did, FWIW:

• always nursed bare first, both sides, then added LA on second side
• only offered LA every 3 hours or so; nursed bare a lot in between (lots of cluster feeding, but that meant more BM for my dd, and better for supply)
• when using LA, removed tube as soon as dd stopped actively sucking/swallowing (watch for the pause in the chin). The LA/SNS flows more easily than a breast, and even comfort sucking tranfsers the milk. My dd was often overfilling herself because she wanted to keep nursing... not keep eating.
• likewise, removed tube whenever she started to drift off at the breast. No "snursing" with LA.

Reducing the amount of supp. during the day meant that a.) my dd nursed more frequently, helping my supply and getting more BM to her (frequency was able to compensate, to some extent, for my lack of volume) and b.) she took her largest amount of supp. right before bed, which suited me just fine. I'd let her take as much as she wanted (only pulled tube once she was asleep) at the last feeding of the day.

This was my experience... HTH.


----------



## MarcyC

Meg - Thanks!!! Great info about over-feeding with supplementers. I've been wondering about that myself as it seems like there are days/times when I have to add more. I've already to the SNS filled completely and sometimes she empties it and cries like she's still hungry. I may let her do more nursing without the supplement.

Okay girls....question....I ordered DOM from healthcarepharma. I've always ordered from global drug and it comes in the original packaging/blister packs. Well, the stuff from healthcarepharma is way way way cheaper, but it came in little plastic bags - like pharmacy dispensed pills, kwim? Should I take it? Oh, it came from Thailand, btw? What do you think? Safe or not?


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Okay girls....question....I ordered DOM from healthcarepharma. I've always ordered from global drug and it comes in the original packaging/blister packs. Well, the stuff from healthcarepharma is way way way cheaper, but it came in little plastic bags - like pharmacy dispensed pills, kwim? Should I take it? Oh, it came from Thailand, btw? What do you think? Safe or not?

Well -- and this is JUST my opinion -- personally I would not take it. I already feel







aranoid about the stuff from globaldrug, but the fact it is in blister packs and the packaging all looks "official" eases my mind. Chances are that it's probably the good stuff, but I tend to be pretty cautious myself...remember it's also your babe's health since you are bfing....


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## JenInMpls

Wow, Marcy, hard call. I mean, there are plenty of excellent professional pharmacists from Thailand, I am sure. If it's compounded by them it may just be a pain and added expense to blister-pack them. But I was even nervous about ordering stuff from Canada and was lucky that my doctor would prescribe it to me and a compounding pharmacy near us would make it. I wish I had good advice but I guess all I can say is that if you are feeling even an iota unsure about it, you shouldn't use it. That's something you have to be able to take with 100% confidence.

Leah - yes, yes, YES! I know just how you feel, it's such a horrible path to walk and ridden with guilt. I want to offer you a big







though and tell you what I wish someone had told me!! : when you were nursing him exclusively, you were trying to do what you believed to be best for him, and there is no reason why you should have assumed at the start that bf'ing would not work, so don't feel guilty for trying to EBF. Now that you know you do not make enough milk for him, you are yet again making a conscious choice to continue to breastfeed him despite low supply and taking on doing it with a contraption that feels (at least it did to me!) completely unnatural. What a commitment! Good for you!

On the SNS tip... hm. I think indeosporo did a great job with her description so I'm not going to repeat and instead just say yeah, what she said! I seem to recall usually putting 4 oz in it at a time and watching the sucking, stopping when he got to comfort sucking. Be mindful overnight if you use it (I had to) because sometimes if you're both tired, you both doze off and baby ends up getting waaaaay too much formula and then it all comes right back up. Big wet warm milky mess in the dark - no fun.

And there is nursing after the SNS







my ds still loves to nurse and we gave up the SNS about 2 months ago.

xo to all, j


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## MarcyC

Jen,
I know I asked you this before, but I can't remember...did you give up the SNS cold turkey or did you go gradually? Did you reduce the # of ounces per feeding or did you skip an SNS feeding all together, kwim? Let me know. DD is 10 1/2 mos and I'm looking into the weaning-from-supplement process...


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## JenInMpls

Marcy - I'm sorry if you asked before and I didn't answer you. Um, what did we do... I started it with nursing him before his naps without the SNS, making a point to feed him a snack before he went down for his nap. Basically every time he wanted to nurse I sat down with both him and a sippy cup, nursed him without the SNS and then offered him milk (at that point a mix of formula and milk) from the sippy cup. For a long time he wasn't interested in milk from sippy cups, suddenly one day he became more willing to drink from a cup - it was like a switch was flipped. The hardest one to get rid of was the overnight nurse but one night (again, rather suddenly) he was willing to take a sippy cup in the middle of the night, and either that night or the next, after he asked to nurse (using the sign for milk which we had been using for nursing) and I offered him a sippy cup, he pushed it away and said "nein nein, mama milch" (German for "no no, mama's milk"), making it very clear that he wanted to nurse and wasn't needing his belly filled. Since then he distinguishes between 'milk' and 'nurse', since he is able to say both, and at some point I just gulped and decided to not take the SNS upstairs at bedtime - and it worked.

I think the full tummy thing prior to times when you would have usually used the supplementer is important, whether it's a sippy cup full of milk or formula or a bona fide snack. I know T was much more willing to just nurse and be happy with his 1/2 oz if his belly was full. Now he wants to nurse for 30-45 minutes overnight and has sucked me dry after about 10 minutes of nursing, and it gets a little tedious being the human pacifier... hard to remind myself that it's really a blessing that we've gotten this far...








jen


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## red17

Hi all,
I threw my back out a week ago and until yesterday my back was so bad that I had to take flexeril which is not so good for bfing.







I have been pumping but not very regularly due to the back pain and dd being so upset at having to be couped up in the same room for this week and my not being able to carry her around at all.







: I'd stopped taking the herbs since I was dumping what ever I got... was that stupid??







I'm feeling a bit better but want to be sure the drug is out of my system before bfing again. Should I just pump more frequently now and wait until I am ready to bf before restarting the herbs? I'm leaning towards taking them now so that my supply will be better once I can bf ... I may need to take the flexeril again tomorrow if the spasm gets more intense







, so would this be wasting the herbs?? Even if it's a waste, it's probably better to up the supply now as it has slowly deminished over this week. How long does it take for the milk to stop altogether?? I have been getting some w/each pump, so I should be able to rebuild the supply, right?







:









Ug! This is just eating me up. I just want the pain to stop, never reoccur, and get back to being the best mamma I can for my darlin girl.







I know someone else must have faced a similar need to pump and dump. How did you handle it (from a low supply pov).


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## MarcyC

I would begin taking the herbs - maybe not as much as you were taking, but definitely enough to preserve your supply, even if it's low supply.

Jen - did you start this before or after his first birthday?


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## JenInMpls

before or after his birthday? Um... *think* I think I started trying to nurse him w/o SNS far before his bday, didn't work too well, we tried to start the switch from formula to cow's milk after his 1st birthday, like around 13 or 14 months simply because our case of Baby's Only was running out; he finally made the complete switch about 2 months ago, I guess, and I was feeding straight milk through the SNS for a few weeks.

Man I wish I had written a lot of this stuff down!! grrr. anyway







jen


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## leahida

nak

jen and meg - thanks for the tips. he slowed down on the weight gain, so i wonder if that wasn't a growth spurt. at this point i'd estimate he's getting 50% from me and 50% formula. i think i have come to accept that it's unlikely that we'll be able to wean him off formula again... but my LC suggested trying to decrease it a bit next week and see what happens. i'm just so darned afraid of him being hungry again!

red17 - I'd say keep going with the herbs, if they are helping you. Because you never know when you're going to feel better and ready to nurse again -- hopefully soon









jen - a question: did you use organic infant formula, or did you use the baby's only just when your ds was a toddler? I think baby's only only makes toddler formula, right? horizon makes organic formula, but it's only available on the west coast or online, I believe... i'd really like to give ds organic formula if he tolerates it (he's on alimentum now).


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## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
nak

jen and meg - thanks for the tips. he slowed down on the weight gain, so i wonder if that wasn't a growth spurt. at this point i'd estimate he's getting 50% from me and 50% formula. i think i have come to accept that it's unlikely that we'll be able to wean him off formula again... but my LC suggested trying to decrease it a bit next week and see what happens. i'm just so darned afraid of him being hungry again!

red17 - I'd say keep going with the herbs, if they are helping you. Because you never know when you're going to feel better and ready to nurse again -- hopefully soon









jen - a question: did you use organic infant formula, or did you use the baby's only just when your ds was a toddler? I think baby's only only makes toddler formula, right? horizon makes organic formula, but it's only available on the west coast or online, I believe... i'd really like to give ds organic formula if he tolerates it (he's on alimentum now).


Leah, the Baby's Only "toddler" formula is perfectly fine for babies - they (ethically IMO) don't market it as an infant formula but it meets the FDA requirements for infant formula. I think they have a comparison chart somewhere on the website that shows how it's exactly the same nutritionally speaking as the major brands.


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## leahida

Wow, Jane, you're so right... I just checked their FAQ's.






















I hope ds will tolerate it...


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## JenInMpls

leah - yes, what quirky said. They very strongly believe that breast is best for under a year and so don't market it as an infant formula for that reason. There are minimum nutrition requirements for formulas set by the government which they meet. It contains DHA and ARA precursors and has brown rice syrup instead of lactose because lactose is a simple sugar and brown rice syrup a complex one. I sent all of the info for health care providers to my dr and she reviewed it and saw no reason why we couldn't feed it to our son, we switched at around 4 months old. One big plus - it smells so much nicer and it is actually not bad tasting (it tastes a biti like Ensure if you've ever had that). I never could figure why baby formula tasted so nasty when breast milk is so lovely and sweet. If you order 2 cases at a time from their online shop it costs less than buying any of the big-name formulas. If you decide to go with it I have a bunch of saved labels for 2 free cans that I'd love to send you. Let me know. Maybe you could try it that way and not have to shell out any cash.







jen


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## Quirky

Leah, I have a new unopened can that you could have as well - I bought it for our 72-hour kit but given that Clara is over a year now without DC going up in a mushroom cloud I don't think we'll be needing it.







If you're coming to the NINO meeting next Tuesday I could bring it to you, or you could swing by and pick it up. Just LMK!


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## leahida

Jen - yes! That would be so great. I'll PM you with my address









Jane - thanks... I won't be able to make it to the NINO meeting this month, unfortunately







But I'd love to swing by and pick it up -- just LMK what your schedule looks like these days!


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## MarcyC

Similac coupons - I know of another MDC mom who has some similac coupons/checks she's willing to donate to a low supply mom for use in an SNS/lact-aid - if anyone is interested, let me know.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Someone is doing a poll for low supply moms at:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=420786


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## mommyto3girls

Hi Mommas, I have been battling low supply on and off due to hospitalizations and Crohn's disease. I am on Reglan right now but plan to order Domperidone (sorry about the spelling there) I went to the health food store today and the owner sold me chlorophyll to help with supply. I did a search for it here and didn't come up with anything. DOes anyone know about if it works?


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## MarcyC

I know that green leafy veggies help with supply, so I imagine the chlorophyll thing is correct. Also "supergreens" (tablets/powders/bars) help as well. I like the GreensPlus chocolate bars.


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## mommyto3girls

Thanks Mary- I hate leafy greens, so this should be good for me. I am also anemic so I should probably take it anyway!

Question for you Mary, I am planning on ordering the domperidone, I have checked out globaltv and in housepharmacy, I wanted to check healthcarepharma as well, but their search feature says they don't carry it. I looked for domperidone and motillum. Should I be searching under a different name? Were you happy with the Dom you ordered from them?


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## Sleepymama

It's motilium, not motillum, maybe that will help?


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## mommyto3girls

Thanks, that's not it though. I just misspelled it here


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## MarcyC

I just checked healthcarepharma as well. Maybe they're out of stock right now. I don't know. Other than them, globaldrug.tv has the best prices. More expensive than healthcarepharma, but reasonable.


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## mommyto3girls

Thanks Mary, I wanted to be sure I wasn't looking for it wrong. Off to order it


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## leahida

Hey mamas, did you see that we are listed under "Featured Forums" on the MDC homepage?


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## MarcyC

How nice! We are featured! That is so cool! I hope there are other low-supply mamas out there who will see it and come visit us and know they are not alone.


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## MarcyC

I've been taking 3 fenugreek capsules, 3 times a day (total of 9). To be honest, I don't know if it's helping but I will try ANYTHING, kwim?

Well, I just read on another list (I think it was MOBI), that someone is taking 20 capsules a day. Geesh! That seems like A LOT!!

How much is everyone else taking?


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## bjorker

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
Hey mamas, did you see that we are listed under "Featured Forums" on the MDC homepage?









I just came back here because I saw that.


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## Vixxen

I'm taking 18 capsules of fenugreek a day. Not so sure that it is helping all that much. I'm also taking domperidone, metformin, goat's rue tincture and drinking a nursing tea from www.herblore.com I'm getting rather discouraged with breastfeeding. I feel like I'm always fiddling with an SNS. It seems like it takes so bloody long for one feeding. I tried to use the bigger tube but my little guy couldn't keep up with the flow. So we are using the small size tubing. I am thankful that my milk supply has gotten to where we don't have to supplement at night b/c that was just so tiring. Now I can just lay in bed and nurse him. For those of you that are taking goat's rue or have taken it did you notice your supply getting better the longer you took it? I'm hoping that will be the case with me. Oh and I found a green plant food drink at Trader Joes that did wonders for my supply. I went from being able to pump 1 oz in the mornings to 1.5 ozs. It actually doesn't taste bad either. Whole Foods has one very similar called Mega Green.


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## leahida

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bjorker*
I just came back here because I saw that.









Yay! Welcome back, Bjorker









Hey mamas - I have a question: for those of you who are nursing and giving supplements, do you feed your baby water? I read in the Dr. Sears Baby Book that ff babes should get 4-8 oz of water a day. But since he is only 30-40% ff, should I still give water?


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## JenInMpls

I never fed T water until he started solids.

Leah, I sent labels your way yesterday.

Yippee for featured forum, perhaps one of these days we'll become our own sub-forum in breastfeeding? *tap toe*








jen


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## MaryJaneLouise

Hi all, just thought we could use some good news, hope I can brag a little bit







I had a good pumping day yesterday, and in the evening with babes I had a lot of milk, and they were both thrilled! They would hardly leave me alone, wanting to take turns and even fighting over me









It was pretty cute. It does make me a bit sad that I can't make them happy like that all the time though







and I wish I could figure out what make a "good" day vs. a bad day.


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## TurboClaudia

yay for milky days!


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## leahida

Right on, MaryJaneLouise


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## JillyD

marcyc - from what I have read, 3 caps/3x per day is fine for the fenugreek. that is what i take on recommendation from our doc.

I have a question about supplementing & starting solids. Did any of you find that you were able to stop supplementing once you started solids with your babes? I know that it's mostly exploration and not about the calories...but I was secretly hoping she won't need as much supplement once we start solids.

also, about when did you start solids if you are supplementing???? I know my DD isn't ready yet (she's not even 5 months yet)...but am excited for when i start to see signs from her.


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## MarcyC

MaryJaneLouise - I keep forgetting to say CONGRATS on the great milk day! I've often thought I should keep a chart and that way maybe I could trace back what caused good days/what caused bad...

Jilly - I've tried several times reduce and/or eliminate supplements since DD started solids, but she still seems to want that supplement. I'll continue to try and probably push a little harder after her first birthday when the nutrition can come from mainly food and BM/liquids are secondary. But right now while BM/Formula is primary and solids are just for fun, I'll keep supplementing as long as she wants or needs. I wish I had better news for you. All I can say is take cues from your baby and if you decide to try eliminating supplements and supplement with solids, be sure to go in for frequent weight checks. A 4 oz. jar of veggies has only about 30-50 calories as opposed to 4 oz. of formula, kwim?


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## melbb

I am new here and this is my first post. I am sad to have to be part of the low milk supply tribe. It was not always this way. My daughter, Audrey, is 4 months. We have had a rocky BFing relationship. She refused to BF at birth, then BF after 2 weeks, then I found out she wasn't gaining weight, so we went back to pumping and finger-feeding, then she BF with a nipple shield, then I weaned her of the shield, then we got thrush (which I suspect we still have, but am not positive), then she refused to BF for 2 weeks, then she started BFing with a nipple shield again. Her weight gain has been fine. She dropped off between month 1 and 2, but was still in the 50th percentile. She has always been difficult to nurse. She is kind of lazy, and if she doesn't nap well, she doesn't eat well. Things have always been up and down. I think her erratic nursing habits have finally taken a toll. She got increasingly fussy this week and barely stays on the breast for more than a few minutes. If I pump, I don't pump much (less than 2 oz). I started supplementing yesterday when I realized there was a big problem. Today, one time, she refused to BF at all and I gave her a bottle crying the whole time. A couple of hours later, I decided to try to nurse her since she probably wasn't hungry and would be more cooperative. She sucked through one let-down, then just sat there comfort sucking (we don't do a whole lot of this). She seemed to fall asleep, so I pulled her off and she opened her mouth searching for my nipple with her hand reaching out. It was so heartbreaking. I want to give up because BFing has never gone well and it has mostly been about me wanting the experience and not feeling rejected or like a failure. But when she wanted me just for comfort, I was reminded that she wants to do it, too, and I feel so bad. The obstacles seem insurmountable. And with possible thrush still lurking, I don't know if I can continue. I have been down the road of pumping like a maniac and I am not sure I can do it. I miss out on so much being glued to the pump. I want to enjoy her! I don't know what to do. My DH feels bad, but fell off the BFing wagon a long time ago and only supports me because I want to do it, but he thinks I am reaching my limit. I guess I just want some encouragement.


----------



## MarcyC

melbb - Welcome! I know it's the LAST place you want to be welcomed right now, but you've come this far. I remember when I first logged on and I think I google-searched "breastfeeding overcoming low supply" or something along those lines. I'm so glad I found MDC!!! Another thing you need to try is the yahoo group MOBI (Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues). Go to yahoo, click on groups, then search for MOBI. You need to be prepared to type in your story and send it a MOBI moderator to get approval, but once you're approved you'll be happy you joined. I feeling of failure, or not being good enough, or not being able to provide for your baby...those are all normal feelings for low supply moms.

The first thing I would say to get is an "at the breast"-supplementer. Either an SNS by Medela or a Lact-Aid system. They are somewhat different, there are pros and cons to each. I own 4 SNS's. I bought a lact-aid system, but didn't care for it so I sold it on ebay. Check ebay for Medela SNS or Lact-Aid. But whatever you do, try to get it ASAP. My very personal opinion is that for a first time mom, the SNS is easier. It's easier to set up, clean, etc. If you can afford it, spring for overnight shipping. Some LC's sell it. The hospital where I had my daugher has an "breastfeeding store" and they sell SNS's there - just get one...whatever you do.

Okay, that being said - there are some prescription meds and herbs you can take. Prescription drugs are Reglan (available in the US, contact your ob/gyn for a script) and Domperidone (available from overseas pharmacies - the popular one seems to be www.globaldrug.tv).

Herbs are Fenugreek (generally available at GNC), Blessed thistle, goat's rue, hops, nettle, red raspberry (these are less common but available on line at places like vitacost or vitamin shoppe).

Mother's Milk Tea will help - you can find this at GNC as well. I also find it at Kroger and Whole Foods.

Eat oatmeal helps boost supply as well as eat lots of leafy greens - every day I have a big bowl of dark green salad with some broccoli. Of course, avoid carbonated beverages, caffeine (chocolate), and salt, and any antihistamines (cold meds). Some people say that almonds help their supply and also malt syrup or carnation malt powder. I've also seen small supply increases when I eat grape nuts cereal. Oh, also avoid soy products. Soy increases estrogen levels and estrogen suppresses prolactin. The amounts are probably minimal, but when you're battling low supply, every little bit helps.

Check back here for hugs and support. Keep up the good work mama! Your babe knows you love her! Oh, also remember that breastmilk doesn't have to be "all or nothing"...Even if you have to supplement, you're providing all the breatmilk your body can possibly provide...mama...you rock!!!!


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## leahida

Hi there melbb, welcome! And yes, we all wish we weren't a part of this tribe







For me, once I began to come to terms (I guess I am still coming to terms) with my supply issues and sought out support and community, things got a lot better.

I can't add much to MarcyC's excellent suggestions - but ditto on the LA/SNS. I know it probably sounds weird, but I *love* my SNS. I wish I didn't have to use it, but for keeping the babe at the breast, it is a godsend.

A book I have found really valuable is Motherfood by Hilary Jacobsen, a great resource for foods to increase milk supply.

We all deserve medals for perseverance and bravery in breastfeeding. I swear, we should create an awards ceremony - "The Mammies" LOL.


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## indeospero

Welcome, Melbb. All the feelings you describe are familiar, and you have my sympathy. Know that you are doing the very best you can for your sweet baby, and *never* doubt the value of your struggle.

Great advice above from Marcy and Leah. I third the SNS/LA advice. I'm a LactAid devotee (I prefer it over SNS). As hard as it was to learn to use it at first, I figured it out and, like Leah, found myself really in love with the thing. It allowed me to BF my dd exclusively *at* the breast, even when I was supplementing. Using bottles at this point will probably only make things worse, unfortunately.

All of Dr. Newman's materials helped me a lot with problems I faced. His book, The Ultimate Book of Breastfeeding Anawers, is excellent, and the resources here: www.thebirthden.com/Newman.html were a big help as well. For rock-solid advice on BF in general, cheers to www.kellymom.com .

My dd and I went through an incredibly difficult start and had some really rough months, and I was so torn-up the whole time. It seemed like it was always going to be hard! But I'm here to tell you that it gets better. My dd is 9 months old now, nursing like a champ, and her only supplement is the solid foods she's eating. I finally feel like a "regular" nursing mama, and it's amazing. Hang in there! It's so worth it.

Glad you're here. Fire away with questions.


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## Vixxen

Hi Melbb, my heart went out to you when reading your post. I know how heartbreaking it is when breastfeeding doesn't go the way you had hoped. I'm currently nursing my second child and we use the SNS for almost every feeding and it has been a wonderful thing for us too. Even though I hate the fact that we have to supplement I'm glad that I don't have to use a bottle to supplement him with. I would highly recommend you get an SNS also. It will probably help to get your supply up and make breastfeeding so much better for you and your dd. *hugs* to you.


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
Hi there melbb, welcome! And yes, we all wish we weren't a part of this tribe







For me, once I began to come to terms (I guess I am still coming to terms) with my supply issues and sought out support and community, things got a lot better. ....

A book I have found really valuable is Motherfood by Hilary Jacobsen, a great resource for foods to increase milk supply.

We all deserve medals for perseverance and bravery in breastfeeding. I swear, we should create an awards ceremony - "The Mammies" LOL.

Melbb: I'm sending you a giant







and a second to all the wonderful advise from the previous posts. You are doing the best you can. I'm fighting my way back to being a low-supply mom after a bout of pumping and dumping so I know it is challenging when your supply goes away due to illness. It basically sucks







: . Know that you will always find wonderful, caring, and knowledgable mammas on this forum who are there for you.

Leah: Thanks for the Motherfood book info. I know that I need to eat better and hopefully this book will give me some great ideas. BTW does anyone know if eating so that your body is less ascidic will help increase supply? If so, I'd give up my tomatoes etc.

Here's hoping that tomorrow will be a milkfull day for all!


----------



## leahida

hey mamas,

i must be sleep deprived. i accidentally posted this to the main forum









do you use the sns in public? i find that when out and about like at a restaurant i nurse and then give a bottle if it's not enough. it's rarely more than bottle/day but still... i think i would just feel too self-conscious with the thing out in public. i do use it at friends' houses, though


----------



## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
hey mamas,

i must be sleep deprived. i accidentally posted this to the main forum









do you use the sns in public? i find that when out and about like at a restaurant i nurse and then give a bottle if it's not enough. it's rarely more than bottle/day but still... i think i would just feel too self-conscious with the thing out in public. i do use it at friends' houses, though










I use the SNS in public. Sometimes I just slip into the bathroom and put it under my shirt then find a place to sit and nurse. The first time that I tried to use it in public it was a horrible failure but I've gotten much better at it. I even used it at the circus! I told my husband last week that I never thought I would use it out in public but I'm glad now that I've gotten comfortable enough to use it. There is definitely a learning curve to getting the tube placed right and doing it discreetly. Do you ladies generally tape the tube to your breast? I have found that I get way to frustrated trying to tape it than to just hold it next to my nipple and get him latched on that way.


----------



## MarcyC

When I first starting using the SNS in public, I'd wear a v-neck shirt then hand the SNS on my chest (I really didn't care who saw it or what they thought). It was easier to run the tubes down through a v-neck rather than a round neck. I just wore a regular t-shirt with a nursing tank underneath. Usually I had someone else hold the baby while I went to the bathroom to set up - tape and all. Then just confidently walked back to the table with my SNS necklace (LOL) and nursed. Now that she's older and more distractable, we either nurse in the car or don't NIP at all and just supplement with solids, kwim?


----------



## melbb

Thank you for the advice and encouragement. Do you think the SNS will work with an Nipple shield? I have not been able to wean DD of it and I don't think now is the time. I have tried without it from time to time, and she just can't maintain a good latch (I have seen a LC to learn to latch her correctly, so I know how to do it). She seems to loosen up when I let down and then it hurts.
Is reglan or domperidone more effective? Or does it depend on the mother? How long does it take to work? What dosage of domperidone do you use? I am already taking fenugreek and More Milk Plus.
THanks.
Melanie


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## Sleepymama

I was only able to use an SNS with a nipple shield. You latch on then slide the tube inside the shield. DS fought the tube without the shield so I had to stop the SNS when I weaned off the shield









I took 90mg of dom/day, 3 pills 3x a day. It was MUCH more effective for me than any herbal galactogogues. I also took reglan for a month and the effects were about the same, but I was heading for PPD anyway and I think reglan pushed me over. Domperidone doesn't have the same risk of depression because it doesn't pass the blood/brain barrier. I noticed almost double output in 24-48 hours. It was quite dramatic. But I was also unable to wean off it. When I stopped taking it around 1 year my supply dried up overnight. You can find dosage instructions here--

http://www.asklenore.info/breastfeed...mperidone.html

HTH

--Steph, low supply vet now EBFing baby #2, 1 month old!!


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## leahida

OK you guys, I am now inspired to try NIP with the SNS. I really hate giving ds a bottle. Today I was so busy running around with him and went too long without nursing - lovely for my supply, I'm sure. I was actually leaking when I got home - something that NEVER happens!! 

I too have found that my pumping output has increased w/ dom. Nothing majorly dramatic but noticeable. I'm currently on 90 mg/day and have been trying to go up to 120 but often forget to take the extra dose LOL. Here is another good link from Kellymom.com on prescription meds for milk supply:

http://www.kellymom.com/health/meds/...actagogue.html

hth.


----------



## herbalmommy

Hi, everyone. I'm new here and I'm so glad I found this thread. My baby is almost 13 months now but our breastfeeding issues were horrible for me. I also have an almost 3 year old who I couldn't nurse either due to what has been said to be insufficient glandular tissue. Anyone have this? Since I had little support the first time around I gave my daughter way before I wanted to (well, I never wanted to) but she lost way too much weight and was severely dehydrated. Same story with my son only this time I had a wonderful midwife and supportive friends around. I chose to use an SNS which was wonderful but with all the other things I was doing it became too much for me. I was also pumping after each feeding, drinking herbal infusions, taking tinctures, and trying to take care of my then two year old. I got really overwhelmed and ended up giving him a bottle to after three and a half months. He was never satisfied after nurs and it was just obvious that he was getting enough. My breasts never changed during pregnancy and I never felt my milk come in or the let-down sensation. So, I'm wondering with my next child is there ANYTHING I can do to make it happen? I want absoluely nothing more than to nourish a baby with my breast.

Much love to you all!
Laura


----------



## melbb

I got an SNS yesterday and have used it 3 times, but it doesn't seem to be working well. I started with the medium tubing and this last time switched to the large tubing. It is also hard to coordinate with the nipple shield. I know that she is sucking enough to get some milk because when she pauses, some air gets in the tubing and when she starts sucking again, you can see the milk/formula moving. She is still impatient and coming off the breast. Am I doing something wrong? There is little I can do if she does not cooperate. I am getting more discouraged. Does anyone have any suggestions?


----------



## Vixxen

Have you tried to bring the SNS higher so it will flow faster? Also you could open up the other tube which will make it flow faster. Just make sure when you do that the other tube end is pointed up so the milk doesn't leak out all over you. Hope that helps.


----------



## scubamom

herbalmommy i know where your coming from, as i am due #2 on tue, and have little or no changes again this pg, and have no definate medical explanation as to why happened to me last time, and i have found nothing different i could do this time, while pg.
I am just keeping my fingers crossed that maybe this time by some miracle i have more milk.

One positive sign is that i can squirt a little right now, so please pray to the milk fairy for me. At least this time i am more informed and will go into hosp armed with my sns. As last time so hard when ds got dehydrated and thus really high bilirubin levels, it was so hard to not hold him and have him under the lamps. This time i think i am a little more emotionally prepared, as last time i never expected not to be able to feed my child, as i was determined i wouldnt quit over latch issues etc like many people do.
But then i was thrown the low milk supply issue which whatever i did and how hard i tried i couldnt fix. The was the hardest to bear, knowing that no answer, not even hard work and determination would fix our BF issue.

I am glad to have this tribe to help me as i really could have done with it at the beginning last time.
Its nice to know im not alone in this, as so many people just dont understand.


----------



## melbb

Okay, I think I may have figured out part of the problem, but I will have to see how the next feeding goes. Audrey has never been as fond of my right breast. I know from my pumping experience that it doesn't produce as much milk and doesn't have as strong a let-down. I was putting her on the right with the SNS to start out. So I switched to the left and voila, she hung out for 35 minutes! What should I do about the right breast? It has always been kind of a battle. Should I just feed her off it when it is very full? SHould I pump it while she eats off the other side? Should I just let it dry up? Ugh. I do have to say that my milk seems to be better at night. I fed her last night without giving her a bottle and without the SNS. She didn't sleep more than 3 hours, but she has been doing that the last several nights even with a bottle (she used to sleep 6 hour stretches, don't know what happened).


----------



## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herbalmommy*
Hi, everyone. I'm new here and I'm so glad I found this thread. My baby is almost 13 months now but our breastfeeding issues were horrible for me. I also have an almost 3 year old who I couldn't nurse either due to what has been said to be insufficient glandular tissue. Anyone have this? Since I had little support the first time around I gave my daughter way before I wanted to (well, I never wanted to) but she lost way too much weight and was severely dehydrated. Same story with my son only this time I had a wonderful midwife and supportive friends around. I chose to use an SNS which was wonderful but with all the other things I was doing it became too much for me. I was also pumping after each feeding, drinking herbal infusions, taking tinctures, and trying to take care of my then two year old. I got really overwhelmed and ended up giving him a bottle to after three and a half months. He was never satisfied after nurs and it was just obvious that he was getting enough. My breasts never changed during pregnancy and I never felt my milk come in or the let-down sensation. So, I'm wondering with my next child is there ANYTHING I can do to make it happen? I want absoluely nothing more than to nourish a baby with my breast.

Much love to you all!
Laura

Hi Laura,

Sorry I missed your post earlier. I too have IGT and with my second baby I took Metformin throughout my entire pregnancy and saw some change in my breasts and have been able to provide more milk this time. Granted I still don't have a full supply but it is better. I started taking goats rue from motherlove.com about 6 weeks postpartum and almost immediately I noticed a difference. Almost every night since then I haven't had to supplement at all during the night which has been wonderful. I'm hoping that over the next few weeks of taking goat's rue I will notice some breast growth and continue to build a better milk supply.


----------



## herbalmommy

Hi, Vixxen-
What is Metformin? I am totally unfamiliar with that name. I, too, took a lot of goat's rue and it did seem to help a little but nothing substantial. My midwife did a ton of research for me which was great. I started taking cotton root bark in tincture. This helps with the let-down. It did help but, again, not substantially. Just a word of caution, if you decide to look more into taking cotton root bark be sure that it is organic. Cotton is one of the most heavily pesticided (is that a word?) crops. It is also an abortifacient. There are stories of women going to the cotton field and digging there own roots to aid in abortion and going nuts. Hallucinations and everything. Don't know how valid those stories are but it still makes sense to me to get organic.

Scubamom-I know how scary the jaundice/dehydration stuff is. It happened with both of mine. The second time was much less stressful. I just want to throw it out there, I don't know if you are planning a homebirth or not, but either way, you can jut buy a full spectrum lightbulb and use it at home. Or just plain old sunlight will do the trick. There is no reason to bear the awful experience that you did again. With my first I had the same terrible expeience and with my second there was no stress involved.


----------



## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herbalmommy*
Hi, Vixxen-
What is Metformin? I am totally unfamiliar with that name.


Metformin/Glucophage is a drug used to treat diabetes but has been used to treat PCOS. From what I understand it does some of the same things as goat's rue in building breast tissue and has been particularly useful if taken during pregnancy when normally you would expect your breasts to change. If you go to http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/mom/pcos.html there are a bunch of great articles about it. Particularly Lisa Marasco's master's thesis. I actually had the luxury of sitting down and talking to Lisa for about an hour at a breastfeeding conference about 3 weeks ago. She was the one who encouraged me to start on the goat's rue in addition to the Metformin, fenugreek, domperidone and the nursing tea I drink. She is so full of knowledge in regards to PCOS and low milk supply.


----------



## herbalmommy

Vixxen-

How much do you think your milk was increased with all things considered? How much do you still have to supplement?


----------



## Vixxen

Well with my daughter I "maybe" made 5 ozs a day so she was mostly formula fed. But she did breastfeed up until 10 months. This time around I think I'm probably making 10-15ozs a day. Colton gets about 15-20ozs of formula a day and almost all of that is via the SNS. I wish I could make more milk but don't we all...I'm just glad that I can provide the milk that I can.


----------



## JillyD

i just wanted to comment on NIP with the SNS. I have been using the SNS is public for about 2 months now. I just hold it with my hand (i find it's better for us if it's actually below her head level so that she needs to suck more to get the milk) and stick the hose into her mouth. The thing is, no one (unless they have used one) knows what the heck it is...and most people won't be sitting there staring at you while you are nursing (and if they are, well...then who cares what the see anyway!). It's so much better for me emotionally than giving her a bottle. I actually feel less self conscience feeding her with the SNS is public than I do feeding her with a bottle

Also, all us ladies with the low milk supply need to remember that nursing isn't just about food. Our pediatrician made the point at our last visit that in some ways, it's better to be supplementing with formula at the breast than it would be to give her 100% breastmilk from a bottle. For some reason, that made me feel so much better about all of this. Keep up the good work mama's!!!


----------



## herbalmommy

I want to just talk about the SNS for a while. I, too, felt weird about using it in public but also felt really weird about bottle feeding. I had a lot of trouble with the SNS, though. Perhaps someone here can shine some light on my situation. Part of the reason that I got so fed up with my son and the SNS was that I'd be nursing away not paying any attention and then I would look down and none of the donated breasmilk was gone from the bottle. I had to fidget with the placement of the tube in his mouth for anything to come out.

Back to the NIP topic, how did you work it so that you weren't totally exposed taping the tubes to your breasts? I could never quite get graceful about the whole thing.


----------



## MarcyC

I went to the bathroom to tape up, then just nursed as I normally would!

MAMAS!!!!! I've had a MILKY day today!







DD has just normal-nursed, bare-nursed, SNS-free-nursed...whatever you call it. We feel NORMAL today!







She's eating more food than normal and for some reason she's a jarred food addict, but I'll forgive her! If she'll nurse without the supplement, she can have any food she wants!


----------



## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I went to the bathroom to tape up, then just nursed as I normally would!

MAMAS!!!!! I've had a MILKY day today!







DD has just normal-nursed, bare-nursed, SNS-free-nursed...whatever you call it. We feel NORMAL today!







She's eating more food than normal and for some reason she's a jarred food addict, but I'll forgive her! If she'll nurse without the supplement, she can have any food she wants!

That's awesome you have had a MILKY DAY! I'm looking forward to Colton starting solids in about 4 months so we can do less formula. I noticed you are in NC Marcy- what part? I'm originally from Thomasville, NC and we are hoping to move back to that area sometime soon. Hopefully my dh will find a job there soon.


----------



## herbalmommy

Congratulations! You must feel great. How exciting!

Now, another question about NIP...Sorry to beat the topic to death but I need really specifics....So, you went to the bathroom to tape up and what did you do with the bottle part? Hold it? What do you do with your baby as your hands would be occupied with the taping? Also, does anyone have difficulties with proper positioning of the tubes in the baby's mouth?

Thanks a bunch,
Laura


----------



## Vixxen

I don't tape the tubes b/c I found taping them was more frustrating for me. So I just hold the tube next to my nipple and get Colton latched on. It takes some practice but I can just about do it in my sleep now.


----------



## JenInMpls

yay for milky days









When I used the SNS I found the most self-conscious part of it for me was getting the darn bottle around my neck. I figured everyone was watching me. In hindsight, I don't think they were! After about 4 months of scaly painful itchy patches on my breasts from tape, I stopped using it. I found that if I got the tube in his mouth it would stay just fine. I always made sure to have the tube extend 1/4" - 1/2" beyond the nipple, and I kind of folded the tip of my nipple up against itself; when he opened his mouth up to nurse, I put folded tip + tube into his mouth and when he started sucking it was placed far enough back in his mouth. I dunno if an IBCLC would say that that's proper technique but it worked well for us and I could do it in the dark.

And I always only ever had 1 tube for his mouth; the other I twisted up around the neck cord and that was the air vent. I know that's less than natural because it makes for a flow they "don't have to suck for" (yeah like babies of mamas with killer let down have to suck REAL hard for that, ha ha, I've seen my friend's baby gag on her milk when she lets down, and if she latched him off, the milk would fly across the room), but it seemed more natural and healthy than that vacuum.

oh - melbb - my friend nurses her babies almost exclusively on her right breast. Her left breast never changed much during pregnancies and makes way less milk. She nurses them there maybe 1 out of 6 nurses. I think that nursing there when you feel full is just fine if baby gets fussy otherwise. With your other breast getting the extra workout, your milk supply would adjust appropriately (being low-supply that may be negligible but you know what I mean







).

Night mamas, j

ps: is there anyone out there (this has little to do with low supply... I think?) who gets excruciatingly sore nipples right before getting her period? I have been nursing T through pain that is almost on par with having mastitis for the past 5 days. I know it means I'm going to be bleeding within the week and I guess it's nice to have the warning, but ow! I used an herb for it before I had T (chaste tree berry) but given that it's a prolactin inhibitor I don't think that would really mix well with bf'ing...


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## JillyD

when i use the SNS, I just slide the tube into her mouth after she has latched on. The LC taught me how to do it. Sometimes it is more difficult than other for whatever reason. I can usually jsut slide it in the corner of her mouth and then I will see the formula start flowing as she sucks. Then, if/when she comes off, I just hold the tube next to my nipple and hope she gets it on the relatch. It is actually easier for me to slide it into her mouth after she latches. But, for some reason, one side is easier than the other.

MarcyC - A milky day like that must make you feel sooooo good!! yay!


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## operamommy

Looks like this is a good place to ask my questions.









I'm having a tough time using the lact-aid in public, so it's nice to hear some tips. I don't know how the SNS is, but with the lact-aid you're supposed to wash it, then rinse with a vinegar/distilled water mixture, then rinse again in distilled water. I'm super paranoid about clogging the tubes up with dried-up formula, so I never use the lact-aid to NIP as I won't be able to wash it right away. Am I being too paranoid about this? I used to just latch ds on first and let him drink what breastmilk was there and then follow with a bottle when in public, but he's hit the distraction phase and unless there's a lot of milk flowing (i.e. using the lact-aid) he won't stay on - so I'm missing that stimulation when I take him out. I'm feeling pretty darned tied to the house now, so any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks!


----------



## herbalmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
yay for milky days









ps: is there anyone out there (this has little to do with low supply... I think?) who gets excruciatingly sore nipples right before getting her period? I have been nursing T through pain that is almost on par with having mastitis for the past 5 days. I know it means I'm going to be bleeding within the week and I guess it's nice to have the warning, but ow! I used an herb for it before I had T (chaste tree berry) but given that it's a prolactin inhibitor I don't think that would really mix well with bf'ing...

JenInMpls-I am an herbalist (always learning, though) I'm wondering where you got the info about Vitex (chaste tree berry) inhibiting prolactin. My understanding of Vitex was that it stimulated the pituitary gland to normalize your hormones. Which, I guess, could inhibit prolactin if your hormone production was out of balance and you were producing too much. Perhaps it would do the same as some antidepressants when they suppress how much serotonin you produce. That doesn't seem to make sense if you are sad and you know that serotonin is a "feel good" hormone. However, if your body produces too much how can it be efficiently used? I don't know, just theory I guess. I am certainly interested in more info, though, if my understanding is incorrect. Thank you so much.


----------



## MarcyC

When I have to use the SNS while out, I have someone else hold the baby while I go to the bathroom. I don't go out alone right now - homeschooling a 6 yo, a 7 yo, and now have the new baby. Leisurely strolls at the mall are out for now, kwim?

I'd say if you were alone, maybe use a stroller and keep the baby in the stroller while you get taped up.

I never worried about the SNS bottle showing - it was like my SNS necklace...LOL. I did wear a v-neck shirt with a nursing tank, kwim?

Most people don't say anything. The few comments I've gotten are a few people asked if she was adopted. A few other people said they'd wished they'd known about the SNS when they were having BF'ing troubles, and one person said she had to use one, but gave up after a few weeks and switched to bottles.

DD slept last night from 8:30-5:00. At 5:00 a.m. I was LEAKING...
















She nursed and went right back to sleep until 7:00. And I was leaking again
















At 9:00 I was leaking again!!!




























She wasn't interested in nursing again so I pumped and I got 1 oz. in 15 minutes and I only pumped one side! I love this milky feeling!


----------



## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herbalmommy*
JenInMpls-I am an herbalist (always learning, though) I'm wondering where you got the info about Vitex (chaste tree berry) inhibiting prolactin.

Oh, dude. Um, let's see. I did the majority of my research on my own after the reply that I got from my dr when I brought it up was "yeah, that happens to a lot of women." It wasn't as horrible when I wasn't nursing, now it's a real issue.

Here's the one I remember it from: it used to be on the Blue Cross Blueprints for Health page, under A-Z herbs. They no longer have this herb index, which I think is a shame. But here is the direct quote and the references: "Research has shown that, unlike other herbs used for women's health problems, chasteberry does not contain any plant equivalent of estrogen or progesterone. Rather, it acts on the pituitary gland to suppress the release of prolactin. Prolactin is a hormone that naturally rises during pregnancy to stimulate milk production. Inappropriately increased production of prolactin may be a factor in cyclic breast tenderness..." references include Silutz G, et al. Agnus-castus extracts inhibit prolactin secretion of rat pituitary cells. _Horm Metab Res_ 25(5): 253-255, 1993 also Böhnert KJ. The use of Vitex agnus castus for hyperprolactinemia. _Quart Rev Nat Med_ 1997; Spring: 19-21.

But here is another from healthy.net that says "In one carefully controlled study with 100 nursing mothers, it was found that women who took vitex had an increased milk flow compared to women who took a placebo. Later research showed that the best way to stimulate milk production is to take Vitex the first 10 days after birth."

I guess I will ask my doctor, who will probably tell me she doesn't know, and that I should find a naturopath or an herbalist. I'll add that to my list of alternative practitioners I need to find a way to pay: chiropractor, homeopath...

HTH







jen


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Hi! I wanted to but in with a new topic that might be helpful for newbies. Here's a list of things I am taking / doing to help with my low supply:

Domperidone
http://www.globaldrug.tv/category.asp?CtgID=1003
Fenugreek and blessed thistle capsules
More Milk Plus alcohol tincture http://www.motherlove.com/product_more_milk_plus.php
Mother's Milk Tea (Traditional Medicinals)
Yeast flakes http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdetail&item_id=3476
Lecithin capsules (prevents plugged ducts)
Eating carob daily and using guar gum in baked goods

Other things I do:
Co-sleep
Breast compression
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/15bre...mpression.html
When pumping I use the Pumpin Pal (note spelling):
http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPER-SHIELDS-Br...QQcmdZViewItem

Hands-free pumping with rubber band trick:
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/h...e-pumping.html

Things I've tried that didn't seem to work for me / weren't worth the time and money:

Inositol (a sugar found in oatmeal, since I'm gluten intolerant I can't eat oatmeal)
Lactuca Virosa (homeopathic treatment)

Anybody else?


----------



## ottermonkey

hi all,

i've been lurking here for a little while so thought it was probably about time to jump in....i have a question....

i have been taking reglan (with not too much effect) and am thinking of switching to domperidone...i am wondering if any one out there who has taken reglan has had more success with the dom and also what it was like on your body to switch?

and input would be much appreciated.......

-wanting desperetely to up my supply (just like all of us!)


----------



## mommyto3girls

AARRGHHH I have been waiting for my Dom to arrive from Global Drug, stretched out the last of my Reglan using 1 a day for the last 6 days instead of going cold turkey from 3 a day to nothing. Today I get a letter from Customs that my Dom has been seized!

What do I do? It had a form to respond, is it best that I don't? It said if I ignore it they will assume I am abandoning it. How do I let Global Drug Know it was seized? Help, my supply has already dropped from stretching out the Reglan, now I am out of Reglan and have no Dom either!


----------



## JenInMpls

Will your doctor prescribe it to you? It's not illegal for them to do so. My doc did. She insisted that I come back in 2 weeks and have my heart rhythms checked to make sure that it wasn't giving me arrhythmia (which it wasn't). There are MANY compounding pharmacies in the USA that will fill a prescription. They make you take all the negative literature, too, but they'll fill it.

My 2 cents for the things that worked and didn't:

Worked: baby-wearing and nursing on demand, which I stlll do with an 18-month-old!

Didn't work: Everything else







but my supply problem is due mostly to lack of working milk ducts... Domperidone and More Milk Plus helped the few that are working but it didn't get baby enough milk. Kind of like having a car where only a couple of pistons are working... making them work harder isn't going to make the car drive better...

Vrooom!







jen


----------



## Vixxen

Not to long ago I heard about someone else's dom being seized by customs and Global Drug sent another shipment out free of charge to the customer and she got the second shipment. I would definitely contact Global Drug and let them know. Maybe they would do the same for you. Hopefully you will get some soon so you can get your supply back up. I'm sorry that happened to you! Makes me think I should go ahead and order my next order early in case something like that happens to me.


----------



## leahida

Thanks for the great list, MaryJaneLouise









I still have some More Milk Plus tincture, but since making the switch to combo feeding, I have kinda given up on herbs, to be honest...just b/c I did not notice much of an effect.

I am eating oatmeal daily, trying to eat lots of lactogenic foods (those in the Motherfood book), and taking 120 mg/day of dom. I drink the nursing tea b/c I like the taste! Carob I have not tried, and might have to go for some of that because I looooove chocolate but the caffeine is not good for milk supply LOL









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*
Hi! I wanted to but in with a new topic that might be helpful for newbies. Here's a list of things I am taking / doing to help with my low supply:

Domperidone
http://www.globaldrug.tv/category.asp?CtgID=1003
Fenugreek and blessed thistle capsules
More Milk Plus alcohol tincture http://www.motherlove.com/product_more_milk_plus.php
Mother's Milk Tea (Traditional Medicinals)
Yeast flakes http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdetail&item_id=3476
Lecithin capsules (prevents plugged ducts)
Eating carob daily and using guar gum in baked goods

Other things I do:
Co-sleep
Breast compression
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/15bre...mpression.html
When pumping I use the Pumpin Pal (note spelling):
http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPER-SHIELDS-Br...QQcmdZViewItem

Hands-free pumping with rubber band trick:
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/h...e-pumping.html

Things I've tried that didn't seem to work for me / weren't worth the time and money:

Inositol (a sugar found in oatmeal, since I'm gluten intolerant I can't eat oatmeal)
Lactuca Virosa (homeopathic treatment)

Anybody else?


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahida*
Thanks for the great list, MaryJaneLouise









I still have some More Milk Plus tincture, but since making the switch to combo feeding, I have kinda given up on herbs, to be honest...just b/c I did not notice much of an effect.

I am eating oatmeal daily, trying to eat lots of lactogenic foods (those in the Motherfood book), and taking 120 mg/day of dom. I drink the nursing tea b/c I like the taste! Carob I have not tried, and might have to go for some of that because I looooove chocolate but the caffeine is not good for milk supply LOL









Leah,
I'm taking the tincture from herblore and at first it was working well... but after my 10 days on meds w/the pump and dump routine ;my supply really took a drastic dip. I was getting it back up when we went on vacation to Phoenix and dd decided not to nurse much. So, supply is again very low. ... Does the mothers love tincture have fenugreek? Fenu as I've posted b4 makes my legs swell so I don't take it.

I've made it 7 months and I'm just so tired all the time and feeling very low. I don't want 2 give up toytally but if I don't pump a min of 5 times a day my supply is nil and when I pump she cries ... not always but most of the time.... UG... Sorry for this post ,... just feeling a need to vent and maybe get it all out so I can continue to try and rebuild supply.









We're leaving for home now,... please say a prayer that I will find my good nature again so my dd doesn't see her mamma cryin all the time.


----------



## TurboClaudia

red17:





















sending you hugs, hugs and more hugs... it was hard for me to accept this from other btdt mamas, but it was still as good reminder -- that you are doing the best you can for your baby girl and it's okay to feel whatever you are feeling. it's really hard struggling with milk supply issues, it's hard to pump when baby is crying, it's hard to accept that a body can't supply a baby with all that s/he needs, it's hard to do regular life with baby things AND figure out the best solution for feeding your baby when you have a family to consider.

please know that i'm thinking of you and sending you peace and wisdom and strength and milky vibes and whatever else you need...









be gentle with yourself, too, and do something nice for yourself. you are the best mama for your own very best baby.

~claudia


----------



## leahida

red17, the Motherlove tincture does have fenugreek as its first ingredient









7 months - I'm in awe of you.





















I can only pray to continue to be able to give ds mm that long. Your dd is SO lucky to have you for her mama. We're here for ya anytime you need to vent. I could not have made it to almost 4 months without the support of my low-supply sisters. Hang in there, mama... I hope your back is better, and I'm adding my positive and milky vibes to Claudia's.


----------



## red17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
...

please know that i'm thinking of you and sending you peace and wisdom and strength and milky vibes and whatever else you need...









be gentle with yourself, too, and do something nice for yourself. you are the best mama for your own very best baby.

~claudia

Claudia and Leah,
You both get a giant







from me. Thank you both. You picked my spirits up with your wonderful milky vibes and sending me the wisdom and strength to take things a day at a time. Tonight was much better for our dd. She _wanted_ to nurse!! I'm totally







: with dd nursing and after she'd finished nursing I pumped and got close to an ounce!

Here's to milky days [email protected]!! -- Lorraine







to both of youllllllllll


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyto3girls*
AARRGHHH I have been waiting for my Dom to arrive from Global Drug, stretched out the last of my Reglan using 1 a day for the last 6 days instead of going cold turkey from 3 a day to nothing. Today I get a letter from Customs that my Dom has been seized!

What do I do? It had a form to respond, is it best that I don't? It said if I ignore it they will assume I am abandoning it. How do I let Global Drug Know it was seized? Help, my supply has already dropped from stretching out the Reglan, now I am out of Reglan and have no Dom either!

Don't bother responding to customs.

Do contact global drug, I hear they have great customer service.

http://www.globaldrug.tv/contactus.asp


----------



## TurboClaudia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ottermonkey*
hi all,

i've been lurking here for a little while so thought it was probably about time to jump in....i have a question....

i have been taking reglan (with not too much effect) and am thinking of switching to domperidone...i am wondering if any one out there who has taken reglan has had more success with the dom and also what it was like on your body to switch?

and input would be much appreciated.......

-wanting desperetely to up my supply (just like all of us!)

ottermonkey: wanted to make sure your question didn't get lost... i never took reglan, only dom, so i don't have any comparative experience to share. and i haven't done much research about the mechanisms by which they each work so i can't help there either.

the one thing i do know about reglan is that it has a higher risk of depression side effects, so if that is at all a concern to you (and for most women postpartum and dealing with milk supply issues, it probably should be) or if you have a history of depression, i would definitely consider the dom. it may or may not be hard to find someone to prescribe it for you. i actually got a prescription from the pediatric MD our son saw after his naturopathic ND (his primary care provider) requested we take him to an MD to rule out anything she may have missed. i don't know how many peds would be comfortable prescribing it, but this one was after a lengthy discussion of our breastfeeding plan with our lactation consultant.

sending you milky vibes... how old is your little one and when did you start working on increasing your supply?

~claudia


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## MarcyC

I agree w/ Claudia. The dom has had fewer side effects for me. The Reglan made me feel "drugged" and completely out of it. I bought my dom from www.globaldrug.tv


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## ottermonkey

thanks for the input....ds is 4.5 months and we have been working on supply for the past month....reglan has helped but the side effects are hard to deal with....i ordered dom yesterday so hopefully it will make it through customs....we're up to about 2/3 bm (yah!) but still hoping to get to 100%....

i've been brewing my own nursing tea and it seems to have helped....here's what i do....combine in a big tea ball fennel and fenugreek seeds with hops and borage leaves...add to 2 qts boiling water for 20 min...remove tea ball and add generous amounts of raspberry, nettle, and alfalfa leaves and sprinkle in some lavender and chamomile...let steep overnight...in the morning remove all leaves and have a yummy tea left...i keep it in the fridge and add to water all throughout the day

this along with fenugreek/blessed thistle tincture/reglan (soon to be dom) /cod liver oil/and a daily bowl of oatmeal

in this month we've gone from 1/3 bm to 2/3...ds has gained near 4 lbs and grown 3.5 inches!

sending milky vibes to all!


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## ottermonkey

gosh, i didnt mean to be a conversation stopper!

i do have a question though for all those taking dom....assuming mine gets here safely... i am wondering how those of you who take it figure out how much to take...do you start off with low doses and gradually increase or do you just go for it right away with a high dose and wean down to less if necessary?


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## TurboClaudia

see dr. jack newman's pages on dom here: http://www.drjacknewman.com/index.ph...&id=5&Itemid=6

the lactation consultant i worked with said the typical amount that has the best effect is 20mg four times a day. that's what i started with and i actually increased it to a total of 120mg over the course of a day after not really noticing an increase. that was after talking to a friend of mine and sister low-supply mama (and MDC mama! --







Victorian!) who told me that higher doses did have some effect for some mamas.

that's great news about the increase in bm that your son is getting and his weight gain and length gain!

~claudia


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ottermonkey*
gosh, i didnt mean to be a conversation stopper!

i do have a question though for all those taking dom....assuming mine gets here safely... i am wondering how those of you who take it figure out how much to take...do you start off with low doses and gradually increase or do you just go for it right away with a high dose and wean down to less if necessary?









Don't worry we start and stop lots. We're lobbying to get our own sub-forum without success:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=377219


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## ottermonkey

thanks ladies!


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## leahida

Congrats ottermonkey on your son's weight gain and your increase in bm. Way to go, mama









I started at 90 mg/day of domperidone per Dr. Jack Newman's recommendation, and am now up to 120. I've noticed a difference from that extra 30 mg. The other night I was amazed - during my middle of the night pump, I pumped 2 ounces from each breast! That's the most I've ever been able to pump at once.

Btw, that tea you're making sounds great. I got lazy and stopped making tea (drank Mother's Milk tincture instead) but the tea is so much more soothing.


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## henhao

Hi all,

It's a miracle that I now have a MM stash in the fridge.

About a month ago, I started taking dom. It was the only thing I haven't tried. I noticed a little difference in my GI. Not sure if I should wean myself off the drug or not.

Baby started solids at 6 mos -- she's 7.5 months now -- and now takes less MM while I'm away so that is why I have some stash. I'm pumping the same and hoping, hoping, hoping that my low supply turns into the amount she needs now that she's having some solids.

I send hugs to all of you. Please be proud of what you are doing -- or what you have done -- for your little ones. I changed my sig recently because so many woman are proud of 100% bfing and I am proud of 87% bfing!! I worked so hard to be able to nurse as much as I can.









Once there was a time when I thought I wouldn't last until 6 weeks. Then I thought I'd make it just to 6 months and quit and now I'm thinking at least a year and maybe longer.










Peace,
hh


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## twins10705

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyto3girls*
AARRGHHH I have been waiting for my Dom to arrive from Global Drug, stretched out the last of my Reglan using 1 a day for the last 6 days instead of going cold turkey from 3 a day to nothing. Today I get a letter from Customs that my Dom has been seized!

What do I do? It had a form to respond, is it best that I don't? It said if I ignore it they will assume I am abandoning it. How do I let Global Drug Know it was seized? Help, my supply has already dropped from stretching out the Reglan, now I am out of Reglan and have no Dom either!

I have several unused boxes of dom you can have. I tried it for a few days and the side effects were too much for me. PM me your mailing addy and I will do my best to locate it and get it out to you asap.

--Amanda


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## MarcyC

How is everyone doing these days. I just figured out I have enough dom for 20 more days







I wish I could take it longer, but I'm happy to have made it this far (she'll be 1 year old in a week!!!).

We're working on a sippy cup (with water). Once I start her on whole milk, I'll gradually switch to whole milk in the SNS and whole milk in the sippy as well. I'd like her to nurse as long as she wants, but I'm going to be content to make it at least a year!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I'd like her to nurse as long as she wants, but I'm going to be content to make it at least a year!

Yeah for a year! My guys turned one this month.

I know I'll still be getting not just the, you're still nursing, but the you're still STRUGGLING with nursing comments soon. Sometimes I do wonder. But it does make putting L to sleep so, so much eaiser. He just relaxes from :hyper: to la-la in 10 minutes flat


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## MarcyC

I'm preparing for those comments as well...especially once we start whole milk in the SNS. *they're coming...they're coming*

I have no idea how I'll respond. I'm trying to think of some witty remark, but she's cutting her 1st year molars and we're very sleepless around here.


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## MarcyC

I got these questions from reading another thread:

Have you ever felt let-down?

I've felt it on one side, but not regularly. On the other side, I've never felt it.

Have you ever leaked?

I've leaked a tiny tiny TINY bit on one side, but on the other not at all. I think I've used maybe 2 nursing pads this year.

What happens when baby pops off in the middle of nursing?

ONCE I had milk spraying out - it was just one thin stream, though. It wasn't like a "shower head", kwim? But that only happened once. Other than that, if she pops off, there's nothing. I don't even get the satisfaction of seeing those little milk dribbles running out the side of her mouth?

Just wondered about other low supply moms if these were things we have in common?


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## henhao

I know what you mean about the "you're still stuggling with nursing" comments. I've not gotten them yet.

I AM still struggling. I can barely pump 5 oz when I'm at work these days.

Have no idea why. The dom worked, then I stopped taking as much, and then I started taking more.

Could having taken and then stopped (for a while) the dom have caused this much of a dip? I used to pumo about 10 oz and now can barely get 5 or 7 oz per 8-hour work day.

This weekend I'll do some power pumping...

Oh, another weird event is that I'm SUPER hungry all the time--more so than usual. Oh, don't tell me I'm pregnant!


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## Vixxen

I've felt what I think was a letdown once, but not since then and that was 3 months ago. I leaked a couple times with my daughter but only in the morning did that happen. I've never leaked with my son. Never worn nursing pads with either of my kids. I've never seen sprays of milk or even drops when my babies have popped off. My son has started sleeping about 7 hours at night straight and when he wakes up to nurse I'm pretty full. I'm thinking I'm going to start pumping about 3 am so I don't loose that milk that he's normally been taking during the night. I just hate the idea of having to get up again to pump during the night. I was so enjoying just nursing him in the bed during the night and not having to get up to supplement or pump.

Congrats on making it to a year Marcie! That's awesome!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Have you ever felt let-down?

Not really, just a little tingly if it's been 2-3 hours since i last pumped.

Have you ever leaked?

Never.

What happens when baby pops off in the middle of nursing?

If I'm having a milky day, DS might have a little milk drool out of his mouth if he forgot to swallow and he's laughing or something







And, it might see a couple of drops on my nipple. But never a spray







it's gotta be squeezed / sucked outta there


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## MaryJaneLouise

This is an interesting thread about BFing low supply past one year:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=434283


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## JenInMpls

Henhao, I bet you are!!!







I must say I am *seriously* impressed with the amount of milk you can pump, but I would wonder: hm. Supply dip, hungry all the time... period late?

Q&A:
Have you ever felt let-down? The only let-down I've ever felt in connection to breastfeeding is the disappointment when I realized I would have to feed my son formula! I know, I know, that's not what you mean







no, I've never felt the milk-ejection reflex.

Have you ever leaked? When I was using domperidone I would leak overnight. When I didn't nurse for quite a long time - only happened a couple times when my son's sleep schedule got off while we were on vacation - i did leak. When I accidentally slept on my stomach overnight I would sometimes leak. And when I had mastitis... yeah.

What happens when baby pops off in the middle of nursing? If he's gotten to the after-let-down point (I know I have a small let-down, because he will nurse for about a minute and then start swallowing every 2 or 3 sucks for about a minute's worth of sucking) and pops off, I get a slow drip, like one bead of milk per second.

A far cry from being able to spray the cat from across the room (one of my colleagues bragged of that).

I hope it's as sunny where you are as it is here. happy weekend, xo j

ps: eta cuz I forgot: Once I got T weaned off of the SNS I considered myself no longer struggling with nursing. He nurses now whenever he wants. Just because he doesn't get 4 oz of milk doesn't mean that anything is wrong with our nursing relationship. If someone commented to me that I was still struggling with nursing, I would look at them blankly, blink a lot and say "I am?". Just like when people look at me nursing him (with his legs kicking and looking all over and then getting down *while still latched on* and then saying "nurse! bye!" and running off) and they say "You're STILL nursing?" I look at them blankly and say "Um, yeah?". remember that you know best about your child


----------



## ottermonkey

hey all,

okay one more question....my dom arrived in the mail (yay!) so now i am wondering...do i need to fully wean off the reglan before beginning to take the dom or can i start now? i have searched the web in vain for guidelines about making this switch.

congrats to all you over a year moms.....that must feel so good!!!

thanks for any input.


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## MarcyC

I don't know about others, but I had such horrible side effects with Reglan, I just quit taking it cold turkey. Literally, I felt awful one day, I quit taking it and I was fine the next. I started on Dom that day and haven't looked back...


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## mommyto3girls

Amanda- Thanks for the offer, I have been offline for about a week.

My Dom arrived on Friday, wow what a difference! In about 36 hours I went from flappy no milk breasts, to full feeling and looking breasts that are full of milk, even woke up engorged this morning after Sage slept for 11 hours!!!


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## henhao

I wish I knew if I was having probs or not. DD nursed all night. She was hard to put down -- very tired but would not go to sleep.

JeninMpls -- Aunt Flo hasn't returned yet so I doubt I'm pregnant really.









I was just reading kellymom.com and saw that getting less from the pump during the day does not mean low supply. I should now that...I don't know what I know anymore!









Maybe my attempt to reverse cycle actually worked? So that could be one of many possibilites as to why I get less during the day. Or maybe I'm about to get my pd. I've certainly been a bit cranky as of late....


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## Polkadots

Hey all -

Another new Momma to the Low Milk Supply Tribe. I have a 3 month old boy and we've been fighting low supply since birth. I've been to Counsellors, LaLeche and Lactation Doctors and the common consensus is that it's due to PCOS. Some get lucky - others (like me) do not. I take Domperidone and it helps huge but not enough to be totally sufficient.

I wonder if anyone has tips or smart words for those people (other mothers) who imply that you are not working hard enough to breastfeed "properly" when you have to supplement. I have had some experiences where I feel very much that I am being judged and/or accused of being a lazy mother. I don't feel I should have to go into detail on everything we've tried just to prove myself to these people but it still hurts.

Anyone else?


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## MarcyC

Welcome to the low milk supply tribe! You know, if someone ever accused me of not doing enough, I'd ask them for specific suggestions. Most of the time, by the time we got to 3 months, if someone offered a specific suggestion, chances were that I'd already tried that. So if someone says you're being lazy, just ask what they would do. I love it especially when people ask, 'have you tried dom?' UM YEAH -- 100 MG. PER DAY!!!

I use an SNS to supplement and I use it in public...most people when they see that contraption in use, don't accuse me of being lazy. Actually, they say if they'd had to go that route, they would have ended up bottle feeding and giving up on the nursing long ago.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Would someone please reply to:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=436378

Yet another reason we NEED OUR OWN SUB FORUM.


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## MarcyC

We made it!!!!!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Yay Marcy!


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## Gianna'sMom

Hey There,

I am one of "you all," struggling with nursing a 3+ month DD, first child.

I have tried all the other routes (funegreek, blessed thistle, nursing, nursing, nursing, visited 2 lactation consultants, and 1 Dr., and now have 3 pumps, including the Medela Advanced PIS) to no avail in upping my supply. Nursing/pumping and crying have now become my full time job. I can't go on like this anymore!

I am curious about Dom and where to order it from online? I used to get other meds online (a few years ago I was having trouble sleeping and used to order Ambien online) so I'm kinda familiar with how to order meds online, just curious if someone could recommend a website for me that is reliable. I live in Alaska, so it might even be a little more difficult to get something.

Any advice is much appreciated!

Thanks and love,
Lisa


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## MarcyC

Hi Lisa! Welcome to our tribe. Most people here order their domperidone from www.globaldrug.tv and have had success. A few here and there have had their orders stopped at US Customs, but most people get their dom quickly...and it works.

Another thing you might try to get is an SNS or lact-aid system. I was where you are exactly when DD was 3+ months. I almost broke down and gave up, but an SNS literally SAVED our nursing relationship. Sadly it was formula in that SNS but it really helped.

(((((HUGS))))) you're a great mama!


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## MaryJaneLouise

Hey Lisa, glad you found us but sad you've had to join us.

I order from global drug also. Hope it helps you


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## leahida

Hi Lisa, welcome to the tribe. We all wish we weren't here but the support is awesome... I got my dom from globaldrug.tv. It seems to be a very reputable company.

Marcy - CONGRATS! You are an inspiration. The SNS has saved us too -- I am so excited to have made it to 4 months so far. Right now ds is nursing w/out the SNS. It is sooo nice


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## Gianna'sMom

Nice to meet ya'll, and of course like you've said, sorry we have to meet in the "low milk supply" thread!

My story is probably very similar to most of yours but I'll share just a bit.

At 6 weeks into BF I started noticing fussiness at the breast . . . .because weight gain had been ok (25% percentile) nobody ever suspected low milk supply (not even me. in fact, I didn't even know it was possible. I had NO preparation for BF, as I had NOT planned on doing it, until the moment I laid eyes on my baby so I had never even heard of this problem. I mean, if it was so common, how did the human race thrive prior to formula and pumps?!) So when I first noticed this, I called an LC who said it sounded like bottle "preferance," although, DD was only getting about 1 bottle per week at the time, so that didn't sound right.

After many weeks of nursing, pumping, fussiness, visits with LC's, good days and bad days, I think it is final: I do not make enough milk for her!

I can only pump 1oz per side (on a MISSED feeding) and about 1/4 oz. when she nurses. Some days, she won't nurse at all cause she is too frustrated at the lack of milk. Some days seem to be ok, and those are usually the days after I go on a major pumping binge for a few days prior. Once I stop pumping after every feeding for even so much as one day, we are back to low milk again.

I have never so much as leaked one drop, nor have I sprayed, or even felt let down. It's like I'm not lactating at all sometimes . . . .

I spoke to my Dr. today and since he was willing to call in a prescription for Reglan for me, and it is free to me, I decided to try that first. If it doesn't work, I will probably be ordering the Dom.

Out of curiousity, if Reglan does work for me, how long will it take before I notice the increase in milk?

Lisa


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
I mean, if it was so common, how did the human race thrive prior to formula and pumps?!)

Women nursed each others' children.

That's why using my friend's donated milk felt so natural to me, I think! And it would never bother me if my friend whose son is 8 days older than mine nursed him. I know many women are different... but that is what happened when moms didn't have enough milk. That or babies just started solids earlier...








jen


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## JillyD

Lisa...welcome...
My DD weight dropped off the curve when she was about 3 months and we had to start supplementing. It was really hard but thankfully, this forum was here to read and it helped to know that I wasn't the only one out there to have low supply. Anyway, we didn't try reglan or dom but have been using the SNS to supplement (it helps the "give me more milk or I'm gonna get really pissed" scream). I have actually come to really love my SNS - I use it at every feeding she needs supplement at regardless of being at home or in public. It's pretty easy to use once you get the hang of it (which can take some time) and it's nice because even ifyou aren't feeding her your milk, you are still getting the stimulation which will *hopefully* cause you to produce more milk.

We started at 12 oz per day of supplement and are now down to only 4 or 5. Hang in there!

jill


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## JillyD

Oh - and anyone know the status (if there is one) on us getting our own subforum?


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## TurboClaudia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JillyD*
Oh - and anyone know the status (if there is one) on us getting our own subforum?










CM hasn't responded to our thread and our questions on the Q&S board in quite a while. Maybe some PMs to her would be in order...

~claudia


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## Polkadots

Lisa - our stories are almost EXACTLY the same. (I have a 3 month old too)

I have been on Dom now for going on two months and it has made a huge difference in my milk supply. I could pump - like you 1oz at the most. Now I can pump 4oz from one breast! It has certainly helped!


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Polkadots,

Is your baby now satisfied with the breast, exclusively? What signs did she display that led you to realize that you had a low supply? Just curious, cause for Gianna it was mostly fussing because the milk doesn't come out fast enough (and it doesn't come out fast enough because there isn't a lot of it). So it's not even like she will nurse until it runs out and then I can supplement. It's more like, if there is not enough she won't even attempt to nurse. It's like she already "knows" how much is in there and she won't bother if she knows it is going to fit the bill!

So you can pump/nurse a lot more on the Dom?

I have been on Reglan for 2 days and I already feel so much fuller. It's amazing how different my breasts are already. I now realize how empty I must have been. But I can't say that it's helping our nusing relationship too much, just yet, and she is very much lollygagging there; On/off, suck, suck, on/off, etc. It's a start, I guess. At least she isn't screamining about it (for today, anyway)

I am not really pumping all that much more but that is because I am nursing her (kind of) again . . . . .

Thanks for sharing!

Lisa


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## Polkadots

Hi Lisa:

By the way - I love Gianna's name.

*Is your baby now satisfied with the breast, exclusively?*

At this point we are going feeding to feeding. I would say that about 50% of the time he is but we're still struggling along. I want to also qualify by saying that he was almost 11lbs when he was born and at 3 months he is 16lbs and 27 inches long so he's a big guy. Throughout the night I mostly nurse him as I find that seems to be when my milk supply is the highest. It's hard to estimate how much we've dropped in supplementation since being on Dom since his intake has grown exponentially - know what I mean? It's been good though. He seems to eat about 6 oz in a sitting and I find now that I really only need to supplement him with about 2oz so I figure he's getting 4 from the breast.

My left breast is so tricky - realllly long let down and then just drops really. Sometimes I have to pump it to get it started for him and even then, like you described, it's hard to keep him interested. It has totally been my experience that they are not even in let down at ALL. My right breast is very juicy and much easier to get him settled on. I usually feed him off the right and then pump out the left.

*What signs did he display that led you to realize that you had a low supply?*

Where do I start. He wouldn't stay latched on. He would pull off and cry in frustration and I would patiently latch him back on and then he would pull off again. (As a first time Mom I thought this was normal and just criticized myself as not getting the hang of it all.)

He never gained any weight. At two weeks, he still had a really bad case of jaundice and his bilirubin numbers were climbing and he was losing weight so I begrudgingly agreed to supplement for a week or two. Then he gained weight and my caregiver told me to go ahead and pull the supplementation which thrilled me. Two weeks later he was back down to his birth weight which terrified me. We were at 1 month with no weight gain. I had been misreading his cues as being evening fussiness due to some advice I'd got from Kelly Mom and LaLeche which said that all babies have a fussy time and not to give in to the temptation of supplementing them because it isn't hunger it's just fussiness. In his case, it was hunger. Sometimes he wouldn't sleep for more than 20 minutes, and some times he would attempt to nurse for hours and hours frustrated, and as he continued to not thrive he would fall asleep on the breast.

I took oatmeal, I drank dark beer, I took Fenugreek, I thought I might pump and stimulate my milk so I rented an electric pump - nothing worked. I climbed into bed and stayed there for 2 days on a Nursing vacation. I consulted LaLeche and went to a Breastfeeding Counsellor and finally ended up at a Lactation Doctor.

It was horrible. At the Lactation Doctor we spoke about Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome and how that might be the cause of my low milk supply. At that point I started Dom - he was 2 months old.

I understand what you mean about not helping your nursing relationship but hang in there. I still pump out and feed it to him by bottle when we have an unfulfilling session (even if I get only 2oz or less at least that is 2oz or less that I don't have to supplement him). BUT! I can DEFINITELY pump more than I ever could before (up to 5 oz now even though it isn't consistent!) and like I said above, especially with the right breast I can feed him a lot longer and keep him latched.

In addition to the Dom I am also taking Mother's Lactation Tonic by HerbPharm. Regular Fenugreek tea did nothing for me at all but this stuff has been helpful (I think) and the two in conjunction seem to work well (Dom and drops). Truth be told it took a month on Dom before I really saw an increase so having results after two days is GREAT! I can also tell that my milk supply takes a nosedive when I don't drink water so we ordered in Water cooler service and I am constantly with a glass in hand. That helped as well.

Lastly - we deserve big kudos for sticking with this. Many others give up by 3 months and the fact that we are sticking with it (and all the mother's here) is great.

P.S. I also switched pumps and found that made a huge difference as well. I went from a Medela to an Avent. Big difference!

Also I checked out your site (way cool) and can I just say that this picture: http://www.politicalhardball.com/gia...2/DSC00063.JPG is stunning.


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## Gianna'sMom

Wow, you sound EXACTLY like us with the fact that you attributed late day fussiness to the typical reasoning that that is normally a fussy time of day for kiddos. Gianna was the same way and I had a La Leche person tell me also that she was fussing because she was "overstimulated" from the day. More like, she was STARVING because all she had to eat all day was like 4oz of milk!

I got very frustrated over there at the LLLI message boards because they kept insinuating that I did not have low milk supply because my daughter had gained weight. I never said I didn't make _any_ milk, I said it was low! Gianna has been in the 25% percentile, but that is because she was getting some amount of BM, just not enough!

Side affects aside, is Dom really that much better at increasing supply than Reglan?

I said that I was feeling the affects already, but I have a feeling that is more from the Fenugreek that I started last week, more than the Reglan. I know that last time I took Fenugreek (a month ago) it helped a lot. So I am probably feeling that, rather than the REglan.

Gianna hasn't nursed in two days now. We had a good session on Friday night because we went out and I didn't get a chance to pump or nurse for 6 hours so there was a decent amount in me by the time we got back. That was the last time she *ate* from me. She's been getting 2oz of EBM and 2oz of formula per feeding. I"m still only pumping 1-2 oz. every 3-4 hours. It's so sad.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share all that with me and for the compliments on my website. Her Popop did that for us (my dad in NJ) and I thought it was really sweet. She is the first grandbaby for my parents so they are stoked and having a hard time being so far away from her, with me and DH in Alaska (he is a pilot in the USAF).

I hope that my experience with our next baby is better than this. I am just so heartbroken and depressed about our BF relationship. I found BF'ing to be very fulfilling and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am nostaglic about those first 6 weeks when everything was working great for us. I keep wishing it was then again!

Take care,
Lisa


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## Polkadots

*I got very frustrated over there at the LLLI message boards because they kept insinuating that I did not have low milk supply because my daughter had gained weight...*

I got frustrated with having "If you really wanted to feed without intervention you could" shoved down my throat.

*Side affects aside, is Dom really that much better at increasing supply than Reglan?*

Honestly - I can't answer this. I was never offered Reglan, only Dom and I did experience a nasty headache for the first two days.

*I"m still only pumping 1-2 oz. every 3-4 hours. It's so sad.*

Hang in there - I feel your pain.







I'm hoping things are going to start looking up for you.

*She is the first grandbaby for my parents so they are stoked and having a hard time being so far away from her, with me and DH in Alaska (he is a pilot in the USAF).*

They must be so in love! She's a total cutie.

*I am just so heartbroken and depressed about our BF relationship. I found BF'ing to be very fulfilling and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am nostaglic about those first 6 weeks when everything was working great for us. I keep wishing it was then again!*

I know EXACTLY what you mean. I've spent a lot tears over this and am so very very disappointed that it hasn't worked out the way I hoped it would. I was really looking forward to only breastfeeding Eli and I love it so much.

Just remember that you're taking steps to increase your milk and you're doing the best you can with love for your daughter. Don't lose hope!


----------



## jenny-g

Hi-

Thought I would join here. I'm another low milk supply mama- I can get, at most, 1/2 oz per breast per pumping session, and I pump every 3 hours around the clock. (I have an Ameda purely yours). Baby is a few days shy of 3 weeks old. Breastfeeding went very poorly, with her constantly crying and pulling off the nipple and being miserable; now I know this is because I was making basically no milk. We had to do supplimentation 3 days after birth due to really bad dehydration and weight loss (over 11%) and jaundice. We were supplimenting with a syringe, and after almost two weeks she was still far from her birth weight. It was extremely hard to feed her, and she'd constantly be sleeping and impossible to wake up. From the hospital, my husband posted here about our situation (he's "prairiedad") and got some useful information from the boards here.

The "lactation consultants" at the hospital (I am not big fans of them) put her on a bottle (dr browns) then, which really upset me, but I will admit, it made a HUGE difference. She went from eating barely 1oz a feeding to 3oz, put on 8oz in two days (!!), and reached her birth weight. She is now far more awake and alert and now we can see just how bad (and starving














) she was before. She went from one dirty diaper a WEEK to one a day, and she's now a giant pee factory. We fed her at the lactation consultants for 20 minutes (which was really hard to do!) and re-weighed her, and she did not gain even one tenth of an ounce.

I hate, hate, HATE not being able to breastfeed. I have very large breasts and I thought this would be one thing that would work out. (I have a frustrating birth story ending in a c-section, but it was necessary... even so, my entire birth plan went right in the garbage). I do have borderline hypothyroidism and also mild PCOS, and the lactation consultant said when I told her this, "you will never be able to make enough milk, period". This really upset me as SHE has no idea what my thyroid or prolactin levels are, and I was never offered any further medication to try to fix these or help with lactation.

I will be calling my doctor to get my thyroid and prolactin checked, and I think I've made the decision to go on dom. I tried fenugreek, which bothered my stomach, I think bothered my baby's stomach horribly (!), and when I found out it's a peanut allergen sensitizer, I stopped it immediately. (We have nut allergies on both sides of our family, and I've been religiously avoiding peanuts, so it really pissed me off to not know this about fenugreek before I started it.)

Anyway, it's so useful to see others' experiences on here, and I would have not even known to look into dom if it wasn't for this thread. I hope a sub-forum is created for this topic, as there isn't much useful information out there about people with problems like ours (including normally good books such as Sears), and all I can find is that "true supply problems are really rare". When I see that, I just want to slap someone. They DO happen, and it is just so emotionally frustrating and upsetting, and I had no idea this could even happen.

I'd like to order a SNS and try to get her bf'ing again, at least just a little bit. I'd love any suggestions about what kind to get and how to use it. I thought about trying to see if there was an understanding LLL person in my area who could help me learn how to use it- the "lactation consultants" at my hospital refuse to use them and told me they don't work well. (sheesh.)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions, and I"m really happy to find this forum. -j


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## leahida

Marcy, Lisa, and Jenny, your stories sound so sadly familiar to me.

Our LC thought ds had reflux and allergies because he was super fussy and a slow gainer. Turns out, to my horror, he was JUST HUNGRY. No one, including his ped, really took our problems seriously, until he stopped gaining weight altogether, at around 3 months.

We've been supplementing him for about 6 weeks now and he's doing great - he's so much happier, and sleeps so well. He has risen from the 5th percentile to the 45th. (He had been in the 50th percentile before the slow weight gain problems started, so it wasn't that he was a small baby).

DS was jaundiced and a sleepy baby too... this seems to be a common thread with supply issues.

Jenny - I too have big boobs and never DREAMED that breastfeeding would be a problem.









I use the Medela Supplemental Nursing System and it works great for us. It has saved our nursing relationship. Other have used the Lact-aid with success, but not having tried it I can't speak to how it works or differs from the SNS.

I ended up renting an instructional video from our local breastfeeding center and that helped me to get the hang of it. One session with an LLL mama would probably also be useful just in the beginning so you feel confident with it.

I also suggest you all new Low Supply mamas join MOBI (Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues). the website is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mobi/ - it is a tremendous resource, in addition to the Low supply tribe.

I would also strongly recommend the book Mother Food, by Hilary Jacobsen - it's a great resource!

Best of luck to you all...and







for doing everything you can to preserve the nursing relationship.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Another big-boobed low-supplier here too. Wonder if there is a connection? Is it harder to get sufficient let-down when there is a lot of fatty tissue?

And does anyone know the difference between low-supply and underactive let-down? Or is it basically the same thing? I don't mean not being able to FEEL let-down, but very little and/or slow let-down?

I ditto & tritto everybody on the frustration of bfing resources (LCs, LLLLs, etc.) not recognizing the possibility of "real" low-supply. While I am convinced that a lot of it is due to poor peri-natal medical practices (c-sections even when necessary, jaundiced babies, stupid nurses & doctors sabotaging early bfing, etc.) it DOES STILL EXIST!!!!


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## Gianna'sMom

I'm a 38DD, so I am not sure if that qualifies as "big breasted," I would think so, but I'm sure there are others that are larger . . . . It's funny, the running joke in my parents' marriage was always that whatever daughter(s) they would have together would be wearing a bra by preschool (My mom is very large chested herself, but did not breastfeed, so I don't have that to compare to).

I don't know how I feel about an SNS . . . . . part of me thinks that I shouldn't do something like that because it would feel unnatural, but the other half of me is desperate for anything!

DS is pretty much not nursing at all now. She won't even attempt to at least get what she can from me (I know there is at least an ounce in there for her at each feeding) but she is not interested in nursing anymore. I think the lack of milk has permanently frustrated her or something.

I'm so sad.

I have been on Reglan for 5 days with no real noticeable improvement. I did notice a slight difference from taking Fenugreek but when I added the Reglan on top of that, it didn't increase any more.

I am still thinking about ordering Dom but by the time I get it and by the time I get it working in my system, DS will be 5 months and a month away from starting solids. Do you think that is too late in the game to salvage a messed up nursing relationship?

Thanks all for listening to me babble.

Lisa


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## Gianna'sMom

OH, i also wanted to add cause MaryJane brought this up: I didn't breastfeed for about 24 hours after Gianna was born. I had a VERY LONG labor, with 5 hours of pushing (vacuum, forceps, baby turned in utero, etc.) and so by the time she came out, she didn't have the energy to nurse, and I didn't have the patience or energy to be persistant about making her try to nurse. Does anyone think that could have messed us up?


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
I'm so sad.

I have been on Reglan for 5 days with no real noticeable improvement.

Lisa

I don't know if you mean this literally or figuratively, but remember Reglan CAN add to depression.

If you can afford it, I would try to order the Domperidone. I know it seems really weird and scary (ordering drugs from WHERE!!! ) but all my reading on kellymom etc. convinced me that it was much safer than Reglan. Don't know about the more effective, but since it's a *different* drug it may work better with your body.

As far as back to the boob, it doesn't hurt to try. One of my boys has always been a reluctant nurser, due to GERD (I think). He will only nurse when sleepy and/or right from the bath (something relaxing about it.) Here's some more hints on that:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...to-breast.html


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## Gianna'sMom

Mary Jane,

I ordered Dom today from the recommended website . . . . . . I requested the "expedited" shipping. How long do you think it will take to arrive?


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## TurboClaudia

Gianna'sMom: I noticed that you are in Anchorage, so I don't know what availability will be like, but would you consider craniosacral therapy for your little one? It's a very gentle form of bodywork and the pracititioners are usually familiar with working with young babies. It really helped us with nursing refusals and general nursing troubles because the therapist noticed he had some imbalances and also some tight muscles (she was also a trained chiropractor and familiar with children's chiropractic). I highly recommend it.

~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

Turbo Claudia,

I am pretty open-minded and would consider anything, but I really don't know what that is. Would you mind explaining a little more and letting me know what type of professionals would provide that kind of service?

I just spent all day withholding the bottle and trying to get her to nurse whatever she can out of me. She finally passed out from exhaustion crying and hasn't eaten since 5am. I feel awful and want to give in with a bottle but I KNOW part of this, at least, is a bottle preferance, IN ADDITION TO, low milk. I tried to give her milk from a small paper cup and she was dribbling it all over and I really have no idea how much actually got into her belly.

I bid on an SNS on ebay today and if I win it I should get it next week. I'm just going to be so embarassed using it in front of DH. I don't know why.

Thanks


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## TurboClaudia

you can read more about craniosacral therapy here: http://www.iahe.com/html/therapies/cst.jsp

there is also a search for a provider page at that site you can use to locate someone, but also some chiropractors have been trained in craniosacral work.

briefly, the idea behind craniosacral work is that the fluid that surrounds the brain and the spinal cord has its own unique rhythm and flow. during birth, which most people would agree is quite a traumatic event even in normal vaginal deliveries, what with the extreme squeezing and the molding of the bones of a baby's skull, sometimes the bones don't align in exactly the right way and the flow of this fluid can be temporarily interrupted, semi-permanently affected or other things. the results of the interruption of this rhythm can manifest in behavior changes or physical discomforts.

although our son did not have craniosacral therapy work done until approximately 5 months of age, it really helped save our nursing relationship. he always favored one breast over the other, and i think it was partly due to his dislike of laying on one side combined with what i suspect was a slower let down on that side. i've never felt milk let down, so it's merely a suspicion.

as for all your troubles with getting gianna to accept the breast, do you have access to any good lactation consultants in your area or at least a La Leche League Leader? i got the most wonderful support from these women, and never once felt that they believed i simply wasn't trying hard enough. they understood about preserving the breastfeeding relationship and that it's about more than breastmilk, and they helped me immensely when i started using a Lact-Aid at breast supplementer.

hope that helps...

~claudia


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## jenny-g

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
Turbo Claudia,

I just spent all day withholding the bottle and trying to get her to nurse whatever she can out of me. She finally passed out from exhaustion crying and hasn't eaten since 5am. I feel awful and want to give in with a bottle but I KNOW part of this, at least, is a bottle preferance, IN ADDITION TO, low milk. I tried to give her milk from a small paper cup and she was dribbling it all over and I really have no idea how much actually got into her belly.

I bid on an SNS on ebay today and if I win it I should get it next week. I'm just going to be so embarassed using it in front of DH. I don't know why.

Thanks

Hi There-
Remember, the main thing you need to realize is your baby needs to be fed!! Why refuse the bottle when you are going to get an SNS soon? If she hasn't eaten all day, that's really bad, and she can get dehydrated quickly. Also, if she's tired from not eating, or dehydrated, then she won't have the energy to nurse at all. (This is what happened with ours before we went to bottles). An oral syringe works better than a cup for getting them to take some milk/suppliment... but take it from me, don't let your frustration at not being able to breastfeed get in the way of providing nutrition to your baby. We did that for the first two weeks and it really upsets me every time I think about it. Now that we've been using bottles for a week, she's put on a HUGE amount of weight, but she'll still latch on to the breast (well, a bit.. still not happy, since I still basically make almost no milk), but she clearly has more energy to do it and is a touch more patient as well.

I think the SNS is a great idea that will help both of us.. but in the meantime we need to make sure our babies are healthy, and that means making sure they have enough fluids and calories even if it means doing things we'd rather not. I don't mean to sound know-it-all here, it's just that we are going through this *right now* and our baby really was ill and dehydrated and quickly getting worse... and it was due to my poor milk supply, not any sort of nursing problems. The standard breastfeeding boilerplate "refuse all supplimentation, bottles, etc" would have killed our baby, there is no doubt in my mind at this point. -j

p.s. I also just ordered dom.. let's hope customs lets our orders through! I"m excited to try this. Will be getting thyroid and prolactin levels checked tomorrow, so I can know more about what's going on and perhaps alter the thyroid meds..


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## JenInMpls

Lisa - I know that it seems really unnatural and weird to use an SNS but you are doing it because you want to breastfeed your baby! I thought of it this way once: using an SNS is kind of like someone using a walker to help them walk. They need the support, but they are walking on their own. Their other option is to ride in a wheelchair. When I thought about it, I knew I would rather use the walker than ride in a wheelchair, to do it myself rather than have something else be doing it for me (a bottle).

Don't anyone get on me about disability rights and wheelchair mobility, please, you realize that isn't my point... it's only a metaphor that helped me get a grip on using an SNS.

If you are weirded out using it in front of your hubby, then give yourself some time to get used to using it in private. Eventually you will (I am guessing) come to see that it is saving your and Gianna's bf'ing relationship and you will be more comfortable with using it. I will say, though, that I was always kind of bothered looking at myself in the mirror when I was wearing it.

Remember: it is a way to help you do what it is that you want to do. At first you may feel like it is a constant reminder of failure, but I promise you: it's not, it is a sign that you are a seriously committed mama who is going above and beyond to nurse your baby.

Good luck







jen

ps: Claudia - your sig cracks me up. Our 19-month-old is in the same boat. A lot of people are calling my little shaggy boy 'she' lately!


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## TurboClaudia

or you could have a happy and alert little one who is not getting quite enough food and therefore not gaining weight and then you will second guess yourself for months about whether you simply missed the hunger cues and taught them how to not feel hungry... *sigh*

dehydration can happen quickly if a babe is not getting any milk, but it can also take a long time if they are getting just enough to have some wet diapers and the occasional poopy one.

i don't mean to invalidate your experience, jenny-g, just wanted to offer a different experience.

Gianna'sMom, i wish i could come right over and give you a hug in the middle of the afternoon. that was always the time i needed a hug and some reassurance from someone who had gone through these struggles, too.

~claudia

p.s. JenInMpls, yeah, we get the she-comments regularly here, too, but we did even when he didn't have much hair, too, and despite his wearing a blue-striped rugby style shirt and olive-colored khakis with big pockets AND a navy blue New York Yankees windbreaker??? huh? how does that say girl? mostly, bill just makes fun of the poor little guy and says he's sorry that he has a mullet.







it's not a mullet!!! and in my crying at commercials emotional pregnancy state, i refuse to take him for a haircut because it will make me bawl and that will make me feel like i have to puke and then i most likely will and i hate that! so no haircut for the time being.


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## Gianna'sMom

Wow, I can't believe how responsive everyone is here. Pretty cool.

The only reason I held out on the bottle today was b/c my Dr. told me to! He said that "eventually she will get hungry enough to be patient enough to milk it all out, even if it is slow." It sounds wrong now, that I'm writing it!

She has been getting little bits out of me all day, but it's just that I know it's not much. It's like: Latch on, suck suck, swallow, suck suck swallow, pull off, latch on, suck, suck swallow, pull off, etc., etc. for 20 minutes or so. She is probably getting about a total of 1/2 ounce at a time. Not much for an 11 something pound baby.

Thanks for the hugs and the encouragement to use the SNS. The one thing I have going for me is that DH is deploying next month for 3 months so at least he won't see me walking around the house with it all the time! I'm kinda shy, by nature, in 5 years of marriage I don't think I've so much as peed with the door open!

I need to start focusing on some other things in my life. Everything is like crumbing around me because I've been so focused on this BF'ing relationship. I need a haircut and a manicure and all that good stuff! I need to RELAX!!

Thanks for listening,
Lisa


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## Gianna'sMom

I forgot to ask, Jenny, what shipping method did you use on the Dom and where are you, again? Just curious. . . let's see who gets it quicker! I got an email already saying it was shipped so we'll see!

Lisa


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## jenny-g

I did the normal 20 dollar shipping (it's already hard for me to afford this!) and I"ll definitely keep the thread updated as to when it arrives. I'm in central Illinois. I wonder if customs vary throughout the country, or if it all comes in through one main area. Who knows! (fingers crossed for both of us!)

btw, it's great that you are seeing your baby swallow. Even if your baby didn't get enough to eat from nursing, you can always finish up with a bottle *afterward*, which keeps them at least trying. I don't think mine ever actually got enough TO swallow, not once. I'm looking for someone in my area who might be able to help out with the SNS, will report on that too!


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## MaryJaneLouise

My dom came from Global Drug in usually 2 weeks. Once it took 4 weeks but that was at the end of the year (between Thanksgiving and Christmas) and I've heard it does take longer then.


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## Gianna'sMom

Well, I've been dealing with this issue for about 8 weeks so I guess I can wait another 2 for the Dom to come! (please don't get me wrong, in those 8 weeks we HAVE HAD weeks where she nursed great and had no problems. I just don't want anyone to think I've been starving my baby for two months. Of course I certainly have not!) We have had ups and downs, as I'm sure most of you here have. For example, last night! WTHeck! She nursed GREAT through the night last night. I heard massive gulping, as if she was trying to keep up with the flow! And a soaking wet diaper this morning. But now again this morning, it's like the milk is gone again? I don't understand! She just got a bottle of EBM so maybe I'll skip my morning pumping session and see if she'll nurse again in a few hours. (it's 8am here in Alaska). Is it possible that I"m pumping *too much* and not allowing the milk to accumulate in me for her to drink later on?


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## TurboClaudia

on a 24 hour clock, a mama's milk supply is greatest during the nighttime sleeping hours because prolactin levels increase during sleep/rest time. another reason to take a nap with your babe during the day.

~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

Claudia,

I think I've heard that before, now that you mention that. You have convinced me to nap today. I haven't done so since the week that DD was born! It seems like every day I just find that I don't have the time! My husband, God bless him, is not helpful at all around here. He works 15 hour days in a fighter squadron and they seem to run them into the ground over there. I end up doing EVERYTHING around here and it seems like "napping" usually falls very low on the priority list. I think part of my problem may be that I'm not taking care of myself as I should be.

Has anyone else experienced low supply due to self-neglect (ie: not sleeping, not eating when you should, etc.) ? Just curious how much that really has an affect on supply . . . . I would be interested in hearing if others have seen an improvement when they started taking more time for themselves . . . .


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## MaryJaneLouise

I stayed home from work one day when sick, and slept, and had the most milk ever in a single day (woke up a couple time to pump -- DSs were at day care).


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## Gianna'sMom

MaryJane, so I take it you are saying that you have noticed that rest had a significant impact for you that time, huh? Interesting. Maybe I can get some hired help in here and then I can take more time to rest! Yea right.


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## Polkadots

I notice a HUGE drop in my milk supply when I don't drink enough water or eat.

I wanted to add - another large chested woman here DD40 - maybe there is a correlation?


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## Gianna'sMom

Marci, that's funny you say that about the water, cause I noticed that too and I brought it up at LLLI and they said that as long as I was drinking a "normal" amount of water that it wouldn't make a difference. They said that my body could make milk out of "ANY" liquid, be it coffee, tea, fruit, vegetables, soups, etc. I have to disagree with this though, for my own personal experience. That may works for others, but not for me. They actually told me not to drink TOO MUCH water! But I notice that on days where I don't drink at least 64oz or so, I have like no milk. On days where I drink 100 oz (and don't leave the house cause i'm in the bathroom every five minutes) I have a lot more milk.


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## JenInMpls

I have read that caffeine can cause a drop in milk supply - so I don't think that just any fluid is good for making milk.

As for bust size... I'm a 38B, so I don't know if the correlation theory holds









Claudia: Tristan has a mullet too!! And it's so cute, and babies can get away with it! But we're having a trim on Saturday simply because his #1 nervous habit is twirling his hair and lately the ends are so split that he has a tendency to get his finger caught in the curl he's twirling. We have had to separate out a dreadlock, too! When he gets that finger caught and pulls when he is trying to get back to sleep, he constantly wakes himself up. It's so aggravating. We aren't going to do anything drastic... just neaten it up. And given the outfit that you described, yes, that sounds awfully boyish to me...


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## Polkadots

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
They said that my body could make milk out of "ANY" liquid, be it coffee, tea, fruit, vegetables, soups, etc. I have to disagree with this though, for my own personal experience. That may works for others, but not for me.

I'm right there with you!!!! I disagree vehemently (from my experience). It seems for me it has to be water and it has to be plentiful. Like - more than 8 glasses a day. I go through bottles.

I'm starting Blessed Thistle today - does anyone have experience with this?


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## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Polkadots*
I'm starting Blessed Thistle today - does anyone have experience with this?


I've been taking it and it has definitely made a difference for me. I have just had a hard time being able to keep a supply of it. Seems like it sells out quickly around here.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Did anyone see this about yoga? I might need to try something like this:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=440154


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## MarcyC

Hi girls! I'm back from vacation and trying to catch up on the posts here. I also posted about our visit to the dairy farm in the breastfeeding forum and I posted about another herb I've found that I wondered if anyone had heard about...check out those two posts if you have a chance.

We took the SNS on vacation but only used it for one feeding at night. During the day I just nursed and supplemented at solids. Then at bedtime, I got her good and full with the SNS and she slept all night while we were on vacation. Now we're home and I'm doing the same thing as vacation, but she wakes up at night. Guess we need to go back on vacation!!! The in-laws were all over me about when I was going to wean.







But other than that, we had a good time.

Well, let me catch up on my reading here...


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## Nick'sValentine

Hi there, I'm new here. I've had problems with my supply from early on. My daughter is 3 months old. She does this fussy thing whenever I try to nurse and I feel like she's not getting enough. I hardly feel my milk come in anymore but whenever I try to feed her..I pinch my nipple to make sure some is coming out and it is! Like I said..I have this problem only occasionally..other times it's fine and I can literally hear the milk flowing out of me fine when she's sucking. Even though it's only an occasional problem..it's been happening more frequently. I want to nurse her as long as I possibly can. I've heard of fenugreek helping the milk supply. Has anyone tried this? What were the results? Thanks in advance for your input.


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## Polkadots

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vixxen*
I've been taking it and it has definitely made a difference for me. I have just had a hard time being able to keep a supply of it. Seems like it sells out quickly around here.

Thanks Vixxen - Today was my first day so I will update how it goes. I'm going to go tomorrow and see if I can get a tincture of Fenugreek too at the local Herbalist and try them in conjunction.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nick'sValentine*
Hi there, I'm new here. I've had problems with my supply from early on. My daughter is 3 months old. She does this fussy thing whenever I try to nurse and I feel like she's not getting enough. I hardly feel my milk come in anymore but whenever I try to feed her..I pinch my nipple to make sure some is coming out and it is! Like I said..I have this problem only occasionally..other times it's fine and I can literally hear the milk flowing out of me fine when she's sucking. Even though it's only an occasional problem..it's been happening more frequently. I want to nurse her as long as I possibly can. I've heard of fenugreek helping the milk supply. Has anyone tried this? What were the results? Thanks in advance for your input.

Christina, hi. Have you checked out this link to see for sure that you have a low-supply? She might be just going through a growth spurt. Sometimes people are afraid they do, when their supply is just fine:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/low-supply.html

Hope you don't have to join us here, but







if you do.


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## redebeth

sorry I don't have much time to read through all the posts but I'm very excited to find this tribe. I'm turning thirty soon, have three kids and am currently struggling to nurse my youngest (5 months old) using domperidone and herbs. I had a horrible struggle to nurse my first two, giving up by around 4 and 1/2 months for each of them. What drives me crazy is the disbelief from everyone -friends- family- md's - everyone. I had home birth with my last two i believe in natural parenting . I'm blessed with plenty of breastfeeding friends who help me feed my baby with their precious milk when I'm low or out. I just wanted to say hi and thanks so much for this forum! Oh yeah has everyone had their thyroid tested? Thanks!


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## henhao

I haven't had my thyroid tested before.

I take dom and that's about all I do now. I am getting to dislike my pump and can't bring myself to pump extra on the weekends any longer. Plus, with teething, she nurses so often that there's not really time to pump.

Does reverse cycling cause pumping output to go down?


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## Gianna'sMom

Just stopping by to say hello . . . . . . . my Dom hasn't arrived yet, but it did ship last week, so that's a start.

I have a Lactaid coming to me later this week too.

I'm hoping that between the Lactaid and the Dom and I can get a somewhat decent supply built back up. She's not nursing AT ALL anymore. It's been over a week since she nursed successfully (I keep trying every day! It's now my littled game called, "Latch n' PRAY")

Hope ya'll are doing well!

Take care,
Lisa


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## TurboClaudia

Gianna'sMom: Do you have someone to show you how to use the Lact-Aid? How to fill it (there are directions in the package, but there are some helpful hints that I learned from the lactation consultant, too), how to use it, when to use it, etc. Do you know approximately how much she usually eats at a sitting? That will help know how much to fill the bag.

If you want to call me or I can even call you, PM me.

redebeth: welcome! wish you weren't here... sending you milky vibes...










~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

Claudia,

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have some support with the Lactaid but I don't have an LC in the area that I like (the one I was working with kept saying, "You breastfed for almost 3 months, that's good. So your baby now prefers a bottle, is that such a big deal?" She just wasn't very supportive of me trying every route I could to get a decent breastfeeding relationship established again.

Would it be weird if I called you? I don't know how to "PM." I'm not so good with these message boards . . . . . That would be OUTSTANDING! I don't know anyone else in my life that has used a SNS so I could really use the help. Thanks a million for the offer.

Lisa


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## nabigus

Hi, all. Hope it's okay to post here. I'm looking for a mom to donate my freezer stash to (and maybe to donate to ongoing). I've posted on a couple of the milk sharing sites, but would be delighted to give to an MDC mom directly! I'm completely totally dairy-free, and would love to give to a baby with cow milk allergies.

I'm in the NYC area, if anyone lives locally. PM me.


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## redebeth

Henhao I don't know much about pumping. I tried feverishly with my first and it exausted me and I really didn't get any encouraging results from it. I never read this before this weekend but there is a condition called post-partum hypothyroidism that develops from the thyroid getting 'blown out' after pregnancy. One of the symptoms is ... low milk supply. I got my lab slip today to get a blood test done. I'm tired irritable gaining weight my hairs coming out in clumps - all the normal post baby stuff but also all low thyroid symptoms.Does any one else have any knowledge of this?


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## siobhang

fyi - there is a new forum for low breastmilk supply support on the www.bfar.org site (breastfeeding after reduction). The new forum is for women who have not necessarily had breast surgery but who could learn from the tips and tricks on maximizing supply discovered by the bfar ladies (the vast majority of whom need to supplement).

http://www.bfar.org/members/fora/index.php?showforum=30

HTH

Siobhan


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## JenInMpls

Nancy, just a note to say: YOU ROCK MAMA!!!

My son was nourished with another MDC mama's milk for several months.

Lisa: in addition to Claudia, Jimmie Lynn Avery at Lact-Aid is extreeeeeeeeemely helpful. In addition to having had a hand in inventing the thing, she's an IBCLC. Call her anytime (well, before 9 central, but still, that's pretty good availability, no?) The # is on their website lact-aid.com if you don't get it with your materials...








jen


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## MarcyC

Lisa - I've used an SNS and Lact-Aid for over a year now. Let me know any questions you have and I'll try to help you in any way I can!

Okay...I just ordered that Shatawari herb on line. It says it's a galactagogue - I'll let you know if it works any better than Fenugreek.


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## Gianna'sMom

Redebeth,

I have not had my thyroid tested so I'm of no help on this one, but I am curious; I thought hair falling out in clumps was normal, after delivery? It's not? Cause mine is REALLY BAD. I have to spend about 10 extra minutes after my shower every day picking up all the hair in the tub, floor, sink, etc. When does it end?!

Are they able to give you meds for the thyroid? I've heard that once you have it diagnosed that they can give me meds to "fix" it, no? I haven't had mine tested, although I probably should. I had an IBCLC tell me that she didn't think I had a thyroid problem because she can usually "_spot the ones with the thyroid issues . . . ._ " and said I didn't "Look" like I had a problem. I'm not sure what that meant. What does someone with a thyroid problem "_look_" like? Kinda silly, right? Anyway, it must feel good to know that there is at least a real reason why you are having a problem with supply. I know it's no consolation prize, but at least you have a starting point to "fix" the problem, no?

Take care and good luck!
Lisa


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## redebeth

Gianna'sMom -Yeah, no, please don't misunderstand me. Hair falling out in clumps IS normal... the symptoms are all the same.. that's why it's hard to diagnose. My Dad's an old school - type physician and he said the same thing to me about the thyriod look thing. So I guess having a degree makes one psychic as well







And my test hasn't been done yet so I don't know if that's my problem. I'm HOPING that's my problem cause it's easy to fix. I think everyone with low supply for unknown reasons should push their m.d.'s to test them.


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## Gianna'sMom

Redebeth, I must have skimmed your post too quickly. You know how it goes; cooking dinner, reading email, feeding a baby, posting on a site all at the same time . . . sorry i misread you!

I went back and re-read your post and you say that you have all the "normal" post delivery symptoms _PLUS_ the thryroid ones. What are the thyroid symptoms? And did your pops say what that "_thyroid look_" is characterized by? It's something about the neck, right?

Thanks for sharing.

Lisa


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## MarcyC

Okay, this may be too personal for you all...but does anyone here have problems with um....female facial hair? Might be TMI, but I just wanted to check.


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## henhao

Hey, I just thought of this. I have a lact-aid I've never used. If you're interested, pm me.


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## Gianna'sMom

I have always had a lot of facial hair . . . . . . I'm Italian! Yes, the stereotype is not always true, but in my case, I'd think so. I have, what I think to be a lot of, chin hair. I don't have a problem with sideburns, stomach or back hair though, as I know a lot of "ethnic" women like myself have. I started shaving my legs at like 11, cause I had dark hair on my thighs. I was never one of those women who can go a long time without shaving their legs. I have to shave like every day. Where are you going with this, out of curiousity?


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## Gianna'sMom

Henhao, thanks so much for the offer (I think that was directed towards me) but I already paid for it and it's on its way here! How come you're not using it? Do you switch between bottle and breast easily? My DD has a bottle preferance because of the low milk, so I need to completely elminate ALL bottles in the hopes of getting her back to the breast, at least some of the time. Otherwise, I woud love to just let her nurse and then supplement with a bottle at the end of the nursing session. I wish I didn't have to use the Lactaid at all, but this is my last hope!

THanks again

Lisa


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## Polkadots

Yup I have some nasty hairs - I figured it was a byproduct of PCOS (which can lead to low milk supply). Nice to meet another Marci/Marcy by the way.

Gianna's Mom - to send a private message just click on the person's name that you want to send to, that will lead you to another screen where you will see these options on the right hand side of the page:

Send a message via email to Gianna'sMom

Private Message:
Send a private message to Gianna'sMom

To access your PM's - (you may know this) - look to the top right of your screen where it says "Welcome, Gianna'sMom" and there is a link to click to get your PM's.

Cheers!


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## redebeth

I always say I'm built for snow - peachfuzz insulation. Gianna'sMom - I started shaving really young also. My dad said the neck thing is a sign of severe hypothyroidism and isn't very common. He said a low pulse is a more common symptom. I think he's implying I'm too hyper to have low thyroid. (which is probably true) - Elizabeth


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## MarcyC

I was thinking that facial hair can be a symptom of PCOS - hormone imbalance - can lead to low supply. I just wanted to see if that's something we all (or some of us) had in common.

I have tons of chin hair and upper lip hair. I also have to shave about every day (legs). I use nair (or a similar product) on my face and I have to do that about 2-3 times a week.


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## redebeth

MarcyC - I noticed you have babies one year apart. I do too. 10/21/2004 & 11/16/2005 One more symptom of PCOS? I was fully breastfeeding when I got pregnant and this was also the case after my 6 year old was born. I get my period so soon I can't tell if it's lochia picking back up or my cycle kicking back in. Then ta-da preggers again! -Elizabeth


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## redebeth

Oops not pcos but prolactin deficiency?


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## TurboClaudia

a lot of facial hair and a lot of body hair (particularly on the arms) can be a sign of PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS), I know... it's a hormone regulation issue. it also can often lead to Type 2 Diabetes. I just read an article about the storng link between many women who have PCOS and also have low milk supply problems. is that what you were referring, MarcyC?

~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

Does anyone here have PCOS?

I thought one of the side effects of that condition was limited fertility? It seems like the few of you that are discussing having children close in age have no problems getting pregnant!

Isn't it usually difficult to get preggers when you have PCOS? I thought I'd heard that somewhere. I've had the facial hair for YEARS and haven't had any other symptoms of PCOS . . . . what about ya'll? Doesn't it also coincide with a "pot" like belly? (not loose fat, but a swollen/rounded pot type stomach).


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## Gianna'sMom

Redebeth, how soon after delivering do you usually get your period? I don't have mine yet (DD is almost 4 months) but I often feel a little "crampy" in my abdomen . . . . . I constantly feel like I'm gonna get it . . . .

I have to use a microtrimmer on my chin a few times a week. There are some really stubbly ones too . . . those I pluck. The rest are soft and I can just "trim" them off. I don't have too much on my upper lip, but definitely on my chin, and then on the rest of my face I have a lot of LONG fuzzy blonde hairs. I trim them too. On my arms, I microtrim too, but they are not too awful. Just that the hairs are dark in color so I hate them.

I am wondering if anyone else with low milk or possible hormonal disorders also has any other kind of autoimmune disfunction? I have eczema on my arms and back (never had this before in my life, but have had it since delivery) and I also have a real problem with cysts and acne. I was on Accutane when I was 25 cause it had gotten so bad. Just curious if anyone else goes through this. My skin hasn't been clear since high school (amazingly, I didn't get the acne until I was an adult. I never had a pimple in adolescence!)

Oh, also, what about early menses? I got mine at 11 . . . . . what about that link?

Just desperate here for some links to low milk supply.

OH sorry for taking up so much room here, but I have one more question! I need to talk to someone about this Lactaid . . . . . In particular, I'm curious if while using it, my milk will also come out, in addition to the supplement? In other words, when DD is sucking on the Lactaid, will she simulataneously get milk out of my breasts too? It hasn't arrived yet and I'm anxious to know the answer to this.

Thanks, Ladies!

YUCK! Gotta go change a formula poopy diaper. I HATE this stuff! I need my dom to come soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lisa


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## Polkadots

I have PCOS - we used Natural Family Planning for 3 1/2 years before I got pregnant. We were just going to start trying and I had been taking Vitex for a month when I got pregnant, much sooner than expected OR else I guess you could consider it took 3 1/2 years depending on how good we were with the NFP.

I think there are varying degrees of PCOS - some more severe than others.


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## TurboClaudia

Gianna'sMom: yes, she will get your milk from your breast as well as milk from the LactAid if she has a proper latch and can stimulate your breast. that's the great thing about using an at-breast supplementer: you are improving your supply as much as possible by having baby feeding at the breast and stimulating the breast while simultaneously getting fed from both breast and supplementer.

I am PMing you back with my phone number, Gianna'sMom.









~claudia


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## MarcyC

Kinda that was what I was referring to. I have PCOS "symptoms" and the hormone irregularities that go with it, without actually having the cysts. It's a mystery to my doctors because my symptoms and bloodwork say I 'should' have it, but my u/s's are all clear, kwim? Strange, huh? One dr. even said, referring to my bloodwork, I don't have a 'normal' level of any hormone. He said I was a, "hormonal mess."


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
One dr. even said ... I was a "hormonal mess".

What... um... tactful wording.







: Did he recommend any herbs or such to help bring you into balance, like nettle leaf, red raspberry leaf, red clover or evening primrose?

My doctor just suggested evening primrose oil to me because I have very odd cycles and extreme pain in my breasts before my period. Evening primrose oil, I guess, helps with the progesterone end of things; the other 3 (nettle, red raspberry and red clover) I drank together in a tea when I was trying to conceive and was pregnant; they really helped even out my cycles.

I am very lucky to have a doctor who is quite into holistic medicine and employs the herb world as much if not more than the western drug world.

I do not have extreme amounts of facial hair; I have 2 annoying ones I have to pluck every couple of weeks, and my peach fuzz is darker; not liking the mustache look on anyone, I remove it. I really think my low supply is due to something going on with my breasts - lack of glandular tissue, or something.

Wishing you all milky, sunny days







jen


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## Mom2sons

Saw this thread out there and thought I would post for some advice. I stopped BF my babe at 4 weeks - severe postpartum and nipple injury. Did not feel good about it so at 10 weeks when I went back to work, I decided to try relactation via pumping. Pumping is going well. I only get an ounce each time but better than the drops that I was getting. I am going to try Domperidone.

I guess I have a few questions:
1.) What milk supply can expect? (i.e. when and how much?)
2.) What side effects should I be on the look out for?
3.) What other things can I do to increase my production.

My son will latch on in the evenings when he is sleepy so I am encouraged that at 3 1/2 months - he may go back to the breast at least once a day. Can anyone share their experiences of getting a 3 1/2 month old back to the breast. Thanks and as a new member - I am encouraged by all the stories of people working through the BF issues.


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## henhao

How much domperidone should I be taking?

I've been taking 10 mg 4 x per day. Am I able to safely take more if it's not doing the trick?


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
Henhao, thanks so much for the offer (I think that was directed towards me) but I already paid for it and it's on its way here! How come you're not using it? Do you switch between bottle and breast easily? My

You're welcome. I WOHM so part of my low supply issue has to do with being apart (I think). It's hard to know for certain. Anyway, she gets all breast now when we're together. We used to supplement and now we don't anymore. WEll, I can't pump enough so we do give her formula when I'm not with her. Hence, my sig line.

I no longer know if I "qualify" as low supply. However, this is my tribe now so I'm sticking to it.


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## MarcyC

Mom2Sons - supply will vary depending on you. I your post and thought, 'WOW! AN OUNCE!!!' What a lucky woman! Some people get drops - literally. Some people get an ounce, some two, some four (someday I'd love to get 4). I've had NO side effects with domperidone. Not one. Some people tend to get hungrier more often and experience weight gain (okay I have gained weight)...since it's a motility drug...it'll keep things moving, kwim? I know others have complained of side effects, but I've taken Reglan and I totally cannot handle that. Domperidone is so much better! Oatmeal is good for production - eat a bowl for breakfast every day and have an oatmeal cookie for an afternoon snack. Malt is also good (Carnation malt powder). Leafy greens are good, too. Alfalfa, Blessed Thistle, Fenugreek, Shatawari (herbs). They are all good.

henhao - Dr. Newman says you can safely take up to 120-150 mg. per day. I'm taking 150 right now. To be honest, I was on 100 mg./day and bumped up to 150 and haven't seen a big increase so I'm going back to 100.

Jen - my dr. did recommend some type of hormone regulating drugs (not herbs). I checked with the ped. and he's not entirely comfortable with me nursing her on hormone drugs so he suggested I nurse as much as I can and then supplement with formula in the SNS. Once she's weaned, I may begin taking the hormone therapy drugs to see if that helps with pregnancy/baby #4.


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## Polkadots

Marcy - that's quite common, I don't have cysts either. My physicians explained (all three of them) that it was definitely possible to have the syndrome without the cysts and that an accurate diagnosis of the syndrome should be based on the hormone level results rather than the presence of cysts.

Similarly - women can have cysts on their ovaries that are not reflective of PCOS.

I found great success with Vitex to regulate hormone levels, in fact, I got pregnant a month after starting it.


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## TurboClaudia

I believe Dr. Jack Newman was recommending 20mg four times a day but you can take up to 120mg in a day. Check his website for his current rec. http://www.drjacknewman.com/index.ph...144&Itemid=232

Mom2sons, welcome. wish you weren't here but glad you found us... sending you milky vibes...

~claudia


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## JillyD

Polkadots - do you use vitex with nursing?

sorry to jump in on all of this - i have been reading but not posting (i can barely keep up with all of you!). Anyway, I was diagnosed with PCOS just before getting pregnant. I really questioned the diagonsis but now am feeling like maybe i do have it. At any rate, it seems like it is a "popular" diagnosis to give to women having any sort of hormonal imbalance...kinda like a catch all in my opinion.

Anyway, i did take vitex while trying to get pregnant and think it helped. Do you all start back on that after birth or do you wait until you stop nursing?


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## Polkadots

Hey Jilly - you know, I wondered if it was turning into a catch-all diagnosis - you could be on to something there for sure!

I don't take Vitex while nursing - from what I've read there are mixed reviews and some sources think that it can decrease milk supply so I figured why risk it right?


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## Sleepymama

I'm curious about PCOS too, and whether you can develop it later in life or whether you have to have it from puberty? I am also a "hormonal mess" and can't figure out why.

I am BFing my 2nd baby, my first was a NICU baby and I had very low supply. I was only able to BF half-time with domperidone, it took him a long time to learn to BF, I pumped very little, etc. At the time everyone thought it was because of our separation and his heart problems and extreme emotional stress. Now I am not so sure.

This time, I had an umedicated homebirth with zero complications, baby very healthy, latched right away and often, no separation. I could not express colostrum before the birth or for a couple days afterwards. My milk took 6 days to come in just like with baby #1. My DD lost over a pound. Once my milk came in she was up to her birth weight in 2 weeks, and has been gaining 6-8oz a week since, but she's still little. I feel on the verge of low supply--I eat oatmeal daily and take alfalfa. She nurses almost nonstop during the day and every hour at night (after a 3-4 hour sleep in the beginning). I rarely feel full (only after that 4 hour stretch). I don't leak, I was never engorged, my breasts don't really feel different or bigger. Just saggier LOL.

I also have gotten AF back at 6 weeks both times. All of this suggests to me that something hormonal is up. But I'm not sure it's PCOS. I conceived DS on the first try, conceived again on the first try, then miscarried and took another year to conceive DD. My cycles were extremely short, like 22 days. I took vitex to regulate them (my progesterone tested very low--4 when 10 is low-normal) and miscarried again (very early this time), then got pregnant with DD 2 months later, took progesterone supplements to keep the pregnancy.

I tested both estrogen and progesterone a couple weeks ago again and both tested low. My doc wants me to start a vaginal progesterone suppository to help with depression, and doesn't think it will affect BF. I'm not so sure. I had a big supply drop with AF last time and I just started taking a half-dose of domperidone again to stave off another supply drop, and will probably continue on it because DD seems way happier this week, I have several let-downs when she nurses now and feel fuller. I was able to pump 2 oz the other day, more than I've ever pumped at one time before.

Anyway, my cycles until after my 1st miscarriage were textbook normal, I don't have excess body hair (hardly any actually!). I do have a history of depression, am overweight with mood swings, some infertility after the m/c. But scored pretty low on the PCOS test. What other explanation can there be? I just don't seem to make much milk and I can't figure out why. My breasts seem to be normal--enough tissue etc. Both my midwife and my doc have mentioned the possibility of PCOS but I just don't fit enough of the criteria.

About the vitex and nursing--on the MOBI yahoo group one of the LCs mentioned that a mom once did stop menstruating and had increased milk supply on vitex, but there just isn't enough data with low supply moms to know for sure. I think if you're not menstruating you probably shouldn't take it.


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## tash11

I am bfar.

My daughter and I didnt know how to bf and so had a little bit of time before she latched on. My milk did come in when she was 50 hours old though. Then that night she was latched on nicely and eating from the right while I could feel the left becoming engorged. We both went to sleep and when we woke up I was very engorged. We would try to latch her on, but it was like trying to latch on to a bowling ball. I tried to pump to make it a little softer, but it didnt seem to help, and my inexpeince didnt help either (all the books just said to hold it like a C, NOTHING said to squish it so she would have something to latch onto). on day 3 the midwife came by and saw that my baby was smaller, she gave us the number of a LC nearby. We called the LC and arranged an appointment for the next day. That night we seemed to be up all night because she was so frustrated she couldnt latch on. At the LCs on day 4 she was one lb smaller then her birthweight. The LC gave us a finger feeder, a formula sample so that she could have something to eat, where to get a hospital grade pump, and the name of a good formula to use. she told me to try to latch, ice, pump and fingerfeed every 2 hours. The baby was to get milk+supplement every 2 hours to equal at least 1.5oz (more if she wanted it). In 45 min with a hospital grade electric double pump I could get maybe 1oz. Eventually she started to be able to latch on. She still got some supplement if she got fussy but I was trying to cut down on it. The LC suggested that for 4 days she get no supplement and we try just milk and see what her weight gain was. She didnt loose any weight, but she didnt gain either. So the LC said to give her 6oz of supplement every day, and to use the finger feeder like an sns. It took her about a month to get back to her birthweight. another 2 weeks to show a steady weight gain.

Now I am taking more milk plus special blend, and useing a lact aid. she useually wants between 2 and 4 oz a day, but sometimes will go through times where she will take 7 or so. I guess I am lucky that I dont have to supplement out of the house or in the middle of the night. although most nights she wont go to sleep until she has had some supplement even if she got some earlier in the day. I hope that once she shows intrest in solids those can be her supplement instead of the formula.


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## MarcyC

sleepymama - it doesn't have to be PCOS related. Just the fact that your hormones are out of whack could cause low-supply. All of these hormones, in a perfect, world fall within the normal limits. However, if even one hormone is "off" it can affect everything. Whatever is going on, could be affecting your prolactin levels. What a mystery! Have you ever gone to an endocrinologist? A good one may be able to shed more light on your personal situation.

Tash11 - Hey bfar mama! Do you ever visit www.bfar.org? Are you familiar with any of Dr. Newman's research? I think he has a pamphlet on supplementing with solids earlier (as early as 3 months if it's okay w/your ped and she's gaining well). Something about breastmilk really helping with the digestive system so bf'd babies can (in some cases) be ready to accept solids sooner. Breastmilk is amazing stuff. I'll do a search and see if I can find that research for you.

Welcome to our tribe!! (Although I wish our tribe didn't have to exist! LOL)


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## Gianna'sMom

Hey Ladies,

How are you all today? I just wanted to report on my use with the Lactaid. I just got it this morning and had it assembled and used within 1/2 hour! It was not difficult at all . . . . DD actually fell asleep on the breast for the first time in about 2 months! She only pulled off once and that was because the lactaid tubing had come out. Other than trying to keep her hands off my breasts (cause she kept accidentally removing the tube) it really wasn't that difficult. I am, however, not looking forward to cleaning and filling this thing 8 times days a day but I guess it's better than using bottles. I'm so excited to put all those bottles away!

Does anyone know if Lactaid or anyone else sells "extra" feeding tube rings so that I can fill and store a few at a time? I know the "delux" system comes with 2 complete feeding units, but I'm looking for the rings only. I didn't see it on their website.

Hope ya'll are having a milky day!

Lisa


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## MarcyC

Oh, they sell tons of extra stuff! They sell extra tubes, rings...you name it. I think the last time I checked they even had a special storing rack for your frig so those bags didn't collapse and they also sell a special cooler bag for on-the-go.

GO, LACT-AID MAMA! YOU ROCK!


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## MarcyC

Here's the link:

http://www.lact-aid.com/prodcat.htm#popular

scroll down a bit:

The first section is "Our Most Popular Accessories & Supplies" - that's where the cooler and the refrigerator storage rack are.

The 2nd section is "Large Capacity" - where you'll find info to order 7 oz. bags and longer tubes.

The 3rd section is "Individual Replacement Parts" - that's where you'll find the bag clamping rings, tubes, etc...


----------



## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
....Does anyone know if Lactaid or anyone else sells "extra" feeding tube rings so that I can fill and store a few at a time? I know the "delux" system comes with 2 complete feeding units, but I'm looking for the rings only. I didn't see it on their website.
...

I have some of those mini-bag clips like they sell at the store for snacks. I just fold the corners down and clip the pre-filled bags. Then I keep them in the fridge until I need them, then I put the lact-aid tubing on them.

hopefully the extra stimulation will help build your supply









MarcyC-I have been all over that site. thanks.


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## Gianna'sMom

Thanks for the link, Marcy. I didn't see that at first. . . . all I saw was the place to order the regular stuff.

Tash, that is really an EXCELLENT idea about the clips! I could even use clothes pins. Thankfully, DD has been getting cold milk since day 1 (when she wasn't getting breastmilk, of course). I never started down that road of warming up bottles, call me a bad mama, but I had heard that if a baby gets used to cold milk, they will be ok with it. She has never complained. So I can just fill up a few bags at a time and leave them in the fridge with the clips on them. Great, thanks ladies!

Lisa


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## redebeth

Gianna'sMom - I'm so happy you had a nice peaceful feeding time. My dom was very late this last week and my milk took alot longer to rebound once I got it, so we've been stressing. I even had to make a late night run to the grocery store to get some formula







cause I ran out of frozen breastmilk from my friends. Does anyone know if Horizon still makes organic formula because I used that with my son last year and now I can't find it. I tried goat's milk with him but it made him fussy and wake up all night so I'm not trying it with my daughter now. I HATE buying formula. At least buying organic formula makes me feel a smidge better.


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## MarcyC

Horizon is no longer making infant formula, but instead Hain Celestial will be making it and marketing it under the Earth's Best label...

Here's the link:

http://www.horizonorganic.com/produc...ant/index.html


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## MarcyC

If you want to buy Baby's Only Organic formula, you can buy it by the case... you get 12 cans for $110.99 (it works out to be only $9.25 per can - cheaper than big-name formula from the grocery store, even). And they have free shipping.


----------



## Vixxen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
If you want to buy Baby's Only Organic formula, you can buy it by the case... you get 12 cans for $110.99 (it works out to be only $9.25 per can - cheaper than big-name formula from the grocery store, even). And they have free shipping.


What website can you get that from?


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## ColeysMama

Nice to have found this forum!

I had a quick, uncomplicated birth last October. DS latched on about 45 minutes later (hospital birth, so they had to do weighing and all that other crap), and was a pro at nursing. We never had any trouble for the first 8 weeks. After that, I had to go back to work, so I got a Ameda Purely Yours pump and started pumping. My supply dropped a little bit, but he usually only got 4 oz of formula at the sitter's, and I had enough milk to EN (exclusively nurse, right?) at night and on weekends.

Fast forward to late Jan/early Feb. I'm an active duty Marine, and I was sent to the rifle range for a week. Translation: 15 hour days with absolutely NO chance to pump. Massive engorgement for the first 2 days, then nothing. Supply was almost nonexistent. I recently started taking fenugreek (9 per day, then up to 12), pumping every two hours at work, plus after nursing at home, drinking tons of water, and eating oatmeal. Everything I could think of. On Tuesday, I rented a hospital-grade pump, hoping it would work better than the Purely Yours. It's the same. This morning I pumped 1 oz at 8am, then 1/2 oz at 10, and it's been like that all week.

I don't know what else to do. Cole is getting more formula than bm at this point, which I hate. I hate that we're paying $100 a month for formula. I hate that I have a "Human Milk for Human Babies" bumper sticker on my car, because I feel like a hypocrite and a failure.

I'm not going to give up. Even if he only gets 1 oz of bm a day, it's better than nothing, but every time I think about it, I want to cry. Is there anything else I can do? This weekend, we're staying home as much as possible and just nurse, pump, etc., all day. He's been sleeping in his crib, but I've started cosleeping again so he can nurse more at night and provide more stimulation. I'm desperate... is there any hope, or has my supply disappeared permanently?

ETA: I read somewhere that taking 15 fenugreek tablets at once will cause "moderate engorgement" in 36 hours... I'm tempted to try that, but would like to know if anyone else has tried it, or if there are possible side effects of taking so much at once.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Ah Marilyn,







You are still entitled to your bumper sticker! Being a working mama is SO hard. What a challenge -- a Marine and a new mama!







:

Here's my favorite web site with info on increasing a low supply:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/low-supply.html

Fenugreek can have side effects in people with peanut allergies, and it causes gas and intestinal upset in some other people.

Good idea on the co-sleeping, my one babes doesn't like to eat much during the day but overnight







you should see his diaper in the morning!

Other than that, you can take domperidone if you want to go ther pharmaceutical route. It's available at:

http://www.globaldrug.tv/category.asp?CtgID=1003

Good luck and another







to you!


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## Mom2sons

Hi ColeysMama,

Similar situation but different circumstances. I gave up BF my second after 4 weeks (severe postpartum depression and nipple trauma)- now that I am past that , I really regretted the decision I made in the heat of the moment b/c I wanted to BF so badly and have that bond.

Pumped with my first one until he was 5 mos. old and thought the second one deserves the same. How old is your babe? Mine is 3 1/2 mos and I am trying to get him back to the breast. I started pumping at his 10 week b-day with a hospital grade pump. I get .75 to 1 oz per pump. Spoke with a lactation lady and she said to pump as often as possible but at least 8 x's a day. She recommended shorter pumps (5-7 minutes) just to empty the breast every 3 hours or so. I did notice the increase when I started doing that. I get maybe a bottle a day but mom's on this thread said I am lucky.

My ds will BF at nite when he is groggy - when he is awake he gets frustrated. I am happy if we get one nursing session a day. I have ordered Domperidone and hope that will work to increase the milk supply.

MarcyC- you recommended shatawari - Is that a Chinese herb?

I am so happy I found this group with women with similar situations. The people at work found it unbelievable that I wanted to relactate but they just don't understand. I know it is easier said than done but don't beat yourself up over it as we Mom's have enough to worry about let alone that. Also - don't feel like a hypocrite - you tried and gave your babe BM during their most critical time.

I do not believe formula is entirely evil - I was raised on it. I do believe in encouraging and supporting BF but not judging as each circumstance is differerent.

Hang in there and let us know how it goes!


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## MarcyC

I haven't actually used Shatawari yet. I just found it on the internet and it claims to increase prolactin so I thought I'd give it a try. I'll try anything.

For the formula, go to www.babysonly.com and then follow the links to purchase the formula on line. If I were to have another baby, I'd probably just buy a case up front (of course, AFTER I'd tried everything else...LOL).

I don't know about taking 15 fenugreek all at once, but if you aren't afraid to try, I'd do it. As a matter of fact, after reading that, I'm tempted to take 15 fenugreek a few times a day...LOL. I usually take 6-10 per day. I knew one person who took 20 a day. I'm one of those people who will try (almost) anything once, kwim?

Oh the never-ending quest to increase milk production...


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## ACsMom

Vixxen, you can get Baby's Only organic formula at the Nature's One website (I think it's naturesone.com ?)

Tash11 - I'm bfar too. I didn't have any luck with the lact-aid. DD wouldn't take my breast after using it & all she did was suck the formula right out of the tube nomatter how i adjusted it...anyway she takes a bottle fine. I'm struggling w/guilt/sadness about having to give her formula, although I don't regret my surgery. My boobs were so huge before that bf'ing might have been a struggle anyway. At least she is getting SOME breastmilk, and I plan to nurse her as long as she wants to. It's just hard...we've struggled with slow weight gain and doctors telling me to supp more and more...some days I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.


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## TurboClaudia

is it just me noticing or do we have a *LOT* of new posters on this thread who are looking for low supply help? i'm going to count later and send a PM to cynthia mosher about it... it's becoming more apparent that we really need a separate forum so these issues don't get lost and so mamas feel supported and like they have a safe place to come to...

~claudia


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## MarcyC

Jen - I think that guilt is something we all struggle with, whether we're using an SNS, pumping and doing bottles, etc. It doesn't help that some people (esp. some serious lactivists) insist that we "must have done something wrong in the beginning." DON'T FEEL GUILTY!!! Just remember that every drop of BM is liquid gold. If you can pump an ounce a day, give her an ounce a day. That's way better than nothing, kwim? And it might help you to feel better that she's getting every drop you can possibly produce. (((((HUGS))))) mama!

Claudia - Keep pushing for us! We do need a sub-forum. I think it would really help MDC to stand out (as if it doesn't already!). So many parenting boards have a breastfeeding forum and then they have a bottle feeding forum. I feel like we are somewhere in between. Especially SNS and lact-aid users ---- feeding at the breast, babe getting some breastmilk, but wondering what's the best thing to put in their SNS. Having our own sub-forum might also remind the lactivists of the effort we're putting into it. I almost cringe when I read the lactivism board and people say they sent back their free formula with pictures of breasts all over the package or cute little sayings. I mean, I understand it, but that formula could be used to help low-supply moms when they are using their SNS's, Lact-Aids, and also for finger-feeding.


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## redebeth

Thank you all for giving me the formula info... I actually prefer the Baby's Only because they put a little vanilla in it so it doesn't taste like total crap. I don't like that they call it "toddler formula" though, because of course, all babies can and should be breastfed. (that's some sorry sarcasm , I am ashamed).


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## Gianna'sMom

I spoke too soon about the Lactaid . . . . we had two great feedings yesterday and then it was all downhill from there . . . she is on/off, on/off and fussing like usual on the breast, and I KNOW KNOW KNOW there is milk coming out of the Lactaid cause it is cold and I can feel the cold fluid moving through the tubing. I don't know what is going on.

I am curious, for those of you who have taken Dom, how long did it take to "kick in" and how much of an impact did it have on your supply?
Mine finally came today. I am going to start at 100 mg a day.

Best to all!
Lisa


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## tash11

I use the babys only organic soy formula (its the one my LC reccomended). I hesitate to buy a whole case though. I keep hopeing I wont need any more one of these days.....

I really like the idea of having our own forum.









ACsMom: I think my baby only has a problem when there is nothing comeing out. She will latch, pull off, latch, pull off, and thats my signal to get the supplement. Wheather its coming directly from me, or from that other thing, she doesnt seem to mind.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACsMom*
.... I'm struggling w/guilt/sadness about having to give her formula, although I don't regret my surgery. My boobs were so huge before that bf'ing might have been a struggle anyway. At least she is getting SOME breastmilk, and I plan to nurse her as long as she wants to. It's just hard...we've struggled with slow weight gain and doctors telling me to supp more and more...some days I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.









I hate that I have to give her supplement (_formula_-the new _F_ word), but its better then her being hungrey. My breasts were like an E before, but I am small in general so I was quite topheavy. They were always causeing me issues before my surgery. Like when I would be sleeping at night and my husband would roll, my hair and my _breasts_ would get caught under him! I hated them, absoulutly despised them. It was so nice afterward. I could buy regular bras, and wear small shirts instead of large ones. Then I got pregnant.

I just have to keep reminding myself that my breasts would be bigger then my head, prolly bigger then my whole baby at this point if I hadent done it. I would prolly need the stroller (which so far has not been used since I babywear all the time) just to keep my breasts in instead of a bra. I might have had difficulty holding her because my arms wouldnt reach that far. In some ways though it would have been easier to feed her... I coulda sat her down in the dining room and nursed her while I made dinner on the stove, wouldnt even have worried about her getting burned........

I think I may test that fenugreek thing though.......

oh, also on the formula sample thing. an exculusivly ff friend of mine got a sample of soy formula that she said her baby prolly wouldnt eat and so she offered it to me. Its not organic so I turned it down. but most people that get samples either use them (because they only give thier kid formula) or throw them away. Now of course I would love it if babys only sent me a little bit







............ (if anyone else could use the soy she had I can see if she still has it)


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## mamaleahnz

Hi, I am a newby to this site and forum, so, HI! Today I started worrying if perhaps my milk was lacking in nutrients or maybe I didnt have very much and I was hoping to run this by you all and see what you think...
DS is 6mth and excl. BF. We have never had any major problems with feeding apart from a few latching to begin but my milk came in heavily and away we went. My son has been gaining weight well since birth (hes due for a weigh in now, last weigh in was 17lb 6) and definately looks well fed. We feed on demand which during the day is usually every couple of hours and at night maybe 4-5 feeds (we co-sleep so Im not very awake) His poo is no longer the seedy looking BF poo but now is thicker and darker and he does this 3-4 daily. Wet naps 6-7.
My problem is that lately he seems to not be feeding well (only feeding for a short time, coming off and on, infrequently) and seems to be unhappy and whiney (unusually) My boobs never feel full anymore, even if it has been 4 hours they just feel a little heavy.
Could this be all due to teething? He had his first two poke through last week but the other teething symptoms have gone again now.
If I am not eating enough (a possibility) this would have a major impact wouldnt it? And drinking LOTS (double) of water - old wives tale or real?
Please Help, Thank you all


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## JenInMpls

Leah - yes, teething can have a SERIOUS effect. That can also have an effect on the digestive system which may have to do with his poop looking different. The mouth hurts esp with those first few teeth and sucking can compound that. Yes, drink lots of water, avoid sage and lots of mint. Your breasts probably don't feel as full anymore because your body has regulated itself to the supply that he needs. I think with that amount of pooping and peeing and weight gain that you're doing just fine.









tash baby's only WILL send you a free sample, or rather a coupon for a free can. Check their web site!

redebeth I feel your pain, I too was a bit miffed about baby's only calling it toddler formula and actually wrote to them about it, and the IBCLC they have on staff wrote back and said that they do that to try to discourage the people who think they're doing their baby a favor by picking organic formula instead of conventional, when they could in fact breastfeed and not feed formula at all. It's usually those people, unfortunately, who do not do the research into breastfeeding or give it a good go before giving up. She was very kind and said that they realize that there are valid reasons why people need to give their babies formula, be it low supply, bfar, adoptive parenting or other breastfeeding issues, but the majority of women out there who are feeding their babies formula would not *have* to be, plain and simple.

Lisa don't throw that Lact-Aid across the room yet. Very often babies will drink "greedily" from a supplementer at first. Perhaps she is going to have to get reacclimated to the breast, or are maybe teeth starting to bother? All recommendations I have read about domperidone agree to give it a 2-week trial before evaluating its effect on milk supply.

Hope you are all having nice weekends. It is going to rain here ALLLLLL weekend. I keep saying "it will make the flowers grow... it will make the grass green..." but boy, is it grey.








jen


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## Polkadots

Lisa it took me a full 3 weeks to notice a significant improvement in my milk supply (i.e. longer more satisfying feeds and larger volumes when pumping).

I know Eli just started teething and our babes are around the same age. He's been a fussy nurser all week long if that's any consolation to you.


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## indeospero

Tash and Jen! I'm BFAR too. Do you guys ever hang out over at bfar.org?

And speaking of bfar.org, I know Siobahn already mentioned it, but there's a new forum for low milk supply mamas getting started. It's not as great as a separate forum here at MDC would be, but I'd love to see it take off as a resource for low supply mamas everywhere. I think the bfar mamas are eager to share what they've learned, and learn from other low-supply-ers, too.







Hope to see you there!

I've been really busy lately, so just listening in mostly







:. Just wanted to pop in to send everyone a







.

Keep it up, mamas!


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## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
....tash baby's only WILL send you a free sample, or rather a coupon for a free can. Check their web site! ....

really cool.... now wheres that link....

hey on thier site it also says "For every 24 proofs of purchase saved from one of our formula products, we will send a coupon for 2 free units of Baby's Obly Organic® formula through mail-in rebate."
neat. now I have to go trash digging as I just threw one out.... (of course I still hope I never get to accumulate 24 especilly since at our rate it would take two years)

actually I really should read the can more, that rebate thing is right on the side









I cant find the page for a sample though, just the rebate..... is that what you were reffering to?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
...redebeth I feel your pain, I too was a bit miffed about baby's only calling it toddler formula and actually wrote to them about it, and the IBCLC they have on staff wrote back and said that they do that to try to discourage the people who think they're doing their baby a favor by picking organic formula instead of conventional, when they could in fact breastfeed and not feed formula at all. It's usually those people, unfortunately, who do not do the research into breastfeeding or give it a good go before giving up. She was very kind and said that they realize that there are valid reasons why people need to give their babies formula, be it low supply, bfar, adoptive parenting or other breastfeeding issues, but the majority of women out there who are feeding their babies formula would not *have* to be, plain and simple......

speaking of reading the can it says:
"Natures One recognizes that breast milk is the best source of nutrition a mother can provide her baby the first year of life and offers advantages not found in any formula. Therefore, Baby's Only Organic is suggested for a baby 12 months and older. For infants less then 12 months, us as directed by a healthcare professinal."

OMG I just found out I live just over a mile from their office!!!! wow.


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## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *indeospero*







Tash and Jen! I'm BFAR too. Do you guys ever hang out over at bfar.org?
......

hang out? I didnt know there was a place to hang out there... I went all over that site, read every word 2 years ago. I tried to sign up for the email list because I so despratly needed that information, however since I didnt have a baby yet I was denied.







I coulda really used it to because there was soooo much I didnt know. like the whole eating every other hour for 45 min thing and how a low supply could affect that and vice versa. how worring about supplementing can affect outings (ebf can just bf, eff can just mix up a bottle, I still havent figured out how to keep suplement good in a lact-aid when going out. fortunatly she useually takes her suplement at night before bed). there were just soooo many things I had no clue about. I figured more then 1/2 milk would be good enough. I just didnt know that even just 4oz a day would be that much more difficult.......


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## operamommy

mom2sons, just had to sneak in and give you a big old







for relactating!!

I began relactating with my ds at the age of 3 months, so I'll eagerly be watching your progress and cheering you on.


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## mommyto3girls

Hi Mamas, I am amazed at how well the Domperidone is working for me. I am waking many mornings actually engorged and have had 2 plugged ducts, Sage has had to relearn how to deal with letdown as she was choking it was coming out so fast.

I feel guilty though that our low supply issues were not nearly as bad as what most of you are going through. I was lucky enough (well it took alot of long hard work) to have had an awesome freezer supply of my own milk before we started having supply issues. I was anticipating hospital stays (which I think were the biggest influence on my supply) and the possibility of my Chron's remaining out of control and needing to wean early. Because of all that I was pumping 4-5 times a day when my supply was good ( months 1-5) and was able to accumulate around 550 ounces of milk in the freezer. Because of all of the issues we have had from months 6-10 1/2) I am down to about 100 ounces, but feel very lucky to have been able to continue to give her my milk, espicially when I read what you all have been through. I now only pump at work, but the dom has helped even that, I was pumping for 25 minutes and getting just under 1 ounce, now I am getting 5-6 ounces, I am amazed. She drinks 10 ounces while she is away from me, so she is using 4 ounces of frozen milk a day, but we no longer need to supplement at night or even on the weekends. At that rate, I have 25 days worth of frozen ebm, I only have 18 working days until she turns 1 and only 26 days left until summer vacation! That means I won't have to worry about it anymore. I will gradually introduce her to organic whole milk in August and she will get that at the sitters when school resumes.

RedBeth- I just had a bunch of bloodwork done with a new doctor. He practices integrated medicine and is a thyroid expert. He says the scales that normal doctors use for determining "normal" thyroid are way off. He compared it to grades at school, says most doctors and the reporting scale that labratories use, won't treat you until you fall into the F range. He says eveyone deserves to live life as a B! My T4 (one of the tyroid hormones) came back as 9.3, I was told 3 months ago by my old doc that it was normal (stupid me never asked for the normal range) well, the range is from 8-55 (or something like that) so I was normal but barely and when combined with my other symptoms and that fact that my Thyroid Stimulating Hormone was way high, it showed that I definately should be on Thyroid meds. He only believes in this Natural thyroid hormone called Armour, It is made by FOrest I think. anyway, really press your doc if your numbers are on the low end of normal, Dr. Woodhouse really thinks that problems with Thyroid, Adrenal Glands, and Ovaries are at the root of many many medical issues. He also found that my adrenal glands aren't working right and said if we get those working even my allergies may improve!


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## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tash11*
I cant find the page for a sample though, just the rebate..... is that what you were referring to?

here it is  used to be that they would send you a coupon for a free can, but hey, a free sample is a free sample, I guess...


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## indeospero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tash11*
hang out? I didnt know there was a place to hang out there... I went all over that site, read every word 2 years ago. I tried to sign up for the email list because I so despratly needed that information, however since I didnt have a baby yet I was denied.









Hey Tash -- the email list morphed into a really active forum last year. Find it here. There's a public forum for guests, but most of the talking is done in the members-only information forum. You should sign up and check it out! It's an amazing place to learn.


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## tash11

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
....ETA: I read somewhere that taking 15 fenugreek tablets at once will cause "moderate engorgement" in 36 hours... I'm tempted to try that, but would like to know if anyone else has tried it, or if there are possible side effects of taking so much at once.

ok, I am going to take some. hopefully by tomorrow night I will be engorged instead of empty like I useually am at night....

taking now 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10... ok, I am a wuss, I am going to take 10 for this experiment.....
in addition to the capsules though I will be taking my normal more milk plus special blend which includes fenugreek.

"Defining Your Own Succes" has this to say about the side effects:
"Maple syrup odor in sweat and urine
Therapeutic doses can cause baby to smell like maple syrup, which can be misdiagnosed as the metaboic disorder "maple syrup urin disease"
Loose stools/diarrhea
Hypoglycemia can occur with doses higher then therapeutic dose
Stomach upset can occur with doses higher then therapeutic dose
Uterine contractions (contraindicted in pregnancy)
Low blood glucose levels in diabetic mothers
Maternal and infant allergic reactions when sensitive to peanuts"


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## Panserbjorne

Hey ladies, haven't been here in awhile ( my nursling is 2 now, and I'm hoping I solved my problem at this point. Took awhile and alot of detective work, but I now am pretty sure I know why my body doesn't produce milk.) but wanted to comment on the fenugreek. Awesome stuff, but using it therapeutically means you *should* smell like maple syrup-not that you may. If you don't stink you aren't getting the full benefits.









I love domperidone and was on it this past time for a year. I have some on hand in case...but I don't think I'll need it again. I'm so glad you are all seeing results. Keep up the great work! IT's worth it! My dd has nursed for almost a year now with no milk.


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## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
here it is  used to be that they would send you a coupon for a free can, but hey, a free sample is a free sample, I guess...

thats still two to three days worth









Quote:


Originally Posted by *indeospero*
Hey Tash -- the email list morphed into a really active forum last year. Find it here. There's a public forum for guests, but most of the talking is done in the members-only information forum. You should sign up and check it out! It's an amazing place to learn.

I hesitate to join a group that excludes some of the people that need the information the most. I can understand when places like the abuse survival forum here will only let certain people in, however I really needed the information BEFORE, now I dont need it so much. Now we are fine. Now that I am 'good enough' to join, I dont need to. I needed that information two years ago.


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## siobhang

wow, I have never heard of someone being excluded on bfar because they hadn't had their baby yet. In fact, I regularly see pregnant women (and in one case, a woman who was contemplating surgery but not yet pregnant or even married, I think) posting to the bfar forums asking for support.

The forums are different from the email lists - many of the old rules are gone, and there are new rules - mainly due to the different nature of fora vs lists, but also as some issues shook out.

If you were pregnant today, you would absolutely be welcome - as are all women who have low supply issues that were not necessarily caused by breast surgery.

Siobhan


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## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang*
...(and in one case, a woman who was contemplating surgery but not yet pregnant ...)...

thats where I was. I had been saying for years that I was going to cut them off. but I hadent pursued it because I wanted to bf. But after I got married I went in to get some bc (as we werent planning on having kids for a few years) and my gp asked if I had ever consitered a br. I said yes, but I wanted to bf. She said that I could bfar. I had never heard of this and so I started to do research. Nearly a year later and after tons of research and talking with a couple of surgeons I went down to a nice manageable 34C. unfortunatly this research did not include actually talking to people that had bfared.

I dont know if I woulda had the surgery or not if I had had more information. I know if my 1 month postpartum self had talked to my pre surgery self I would not have. but now its gotten easier and so I prolly would. But there were so many things I didnt know that I didnt know. I was thinking mostly in terms of quantity. I figured if quantity of milk was more then quantity of formula it was ok. I didnt know it would affect my ability to go out in public, nip is hard enough to figure out (even for someone as unmodest as I am).

now I try to post my bfar experinces on bfing forums so that other people searching for bfar info before thier reduction can find it.


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## MarcyC

Is anyone here also a member of MOBI (yahoo group for Mother's Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues)?

Claudia, if you're reading I have a great idea you might want to pass on to the powers that be...

I'm a member of MOBI but find the posts (format) really hard to follow. I'm not too fond of the yahoo message format. Very hard to follow. I've heard of larger message boards before that play "host" to someone or some group that just needs one message board.

Maybe MDC could join forces with MOBI and provide a MOBI forum. I think that would be AWESOME!!! What do you all think?


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## Slabobbin

I don't know that I will make it through all 44 pages of this thread but I did want to post.

I have PCOS and low milk supply due to that. Ironically it seems that I may have had enough milk with my son however I had gallbladder surgery two weeks PP and to make a long, painful, drawnout story short, he was formula fed.

With my daughter I was SO determined. We EBF for two weeks until I finally took her in knowing that something was not right. She was almost hospitalized but since I agreed to immediately start supplementing with formula they did not.

I took Fenugreek, Blessed Thistle and Domperidone.

I'm happy to report that at 14 months we are still going and she LOVES her "ninny".









We had to supplement the entire time, no matter what I did it wasn't enough to have a full supply. But it was so worth it to hang in there. I wouldn't trade the nursing relationship we have for the world.

She is now on solids and we supplment with raw cows milk instead of formula (I wish I would have known about the milk back when I was using the formula). She nurses five or six times per day now.

I'm not sure how much she is getting...she doesn't have milk running down her face and it doesn't spray out when she pops off but she must be getting something as she loves nursing.


----------



## tash11

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT

ok, a little over 12 hours since I took the 10 pills. I felt fuller all day, feel fuller then I useually do this time of night, but I am not leaking or anything. Baby still seems a bit hungrey. Supplementing 4oz like normal.


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## MarcyC

I'm going to try your fenugreek experiment. Instead of taking 15 over the course of the day (5x3), I'm going to take all 15 around mid-day for a few days and see what happens.


----------



## Mom2sons

Thanks so much for the words of encouragment. Still going strong. Waiting for my Domperidone to come in and hope that is the kick start we need in getting back to the breast most feedings.

Please share your experiences with me. My DS nurses pretty well in the middle of the nite although I still a have to supplement with formula as I just am not producing enough. During the day, he is not doing so good. He gets frustrated. Tried the lactaid but that did not go great. I had a starter one and may need to invest in a good one.

Sounds like you are doing great. Please provide your tricks for getting your DS back the breast and increasing your milk. Great to meet you!


----------



## Panserbjorne

Have you tried any other form of fenugreek? The capsules never did much for me, while using the seeds and tinctures made a BIG difference. Can you smell it? Remember too that it is a cumulative thing to some extent. Once you up the dosage it may take a couple of days to see the benefit. Are you doing it with domperidone? How much? How about blessed thistle, or any other herbs for that matter? Are you pumping at all? Sorry for all the questions...I remember all too well.

Also, have any of your kids had structural work done? Either chiropractic or craniosacral therapy?

Do any of you have gut issues...IBS, crohn's colitis, celiac, IBD etc?


----------



## mommyto3girls

I have Crohn's disease


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## operamommy

Mom2sons,

I think it's great that your babe is at least nursing in the middle of the night. Hopefully as he gets more used to the idea that "breast = food" he'll be more willing to nurse during the day. Are you doing lots of skin-to-skin time? Some days with ds I would just carry him around topless in the mei tei. Also, I would keep giving the lact-aid a try...maybe when he's drowsy, or in the middle of the night. With my ds the first few times I sucked the formula down to the end of the tube myself so that as soon as he latched on he was getting something - I had to only do that a few times before he was content to latch on and suck himself.

I use the usual tricks for increasing milk supply - water, rest, dom, and I take the More Milk Plus capsules from Motherlove. I think what's helped the most is the lact-aid. Ds was really willing, so we were doing all feedings at the breast 2 days after getting it. I think if you keep working with your wee guy he'll get there! I never thought we would be where we are now. When I began relactating I only had drops of milk. We are now doing the morning feeding *without* the lact-aid, and he takes about 3 1/2 oz. in it for the other feedings.

Have you tried nursing in the tub? I've heard that can work really well. I would also try nursing him to sleep. Maybe start him off with the usual routine (rocking, etc.) then once he's drowsy switch him to the breast.

I'm so proud of you for relactating. I know how much work and dedication it takes, but as you know it's very worth it. Feel free to PM me anytime, especially on those days where he won't latch and you just want to throw the pump out the window. Remember every single drop of mm he gets is helping him grow healthy and strong.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*

Do any of you have gut issues...IBS, crohn's colitis, celiac, IBD etc?

I have IBD / ulcerative colitis, why do you ask? is that a factor in low-supply?


----------



## Panserbjorne

Yes, though unfortunately not much research has been done. I am collecting info now and would like to write an article. I can't tell you how many mamas who have been ruled out for issues like surgery, insufficient glandular tissue and PCOS have gut problems. I found out the hard way myself...I have celiac disease which wasn't diagnosed until my dd was 16 months old. I did find that as I did a gut healing program (geared towards those with celiac disease, IBD, colitis, Crohn's and IBS) my supply went up-and that was after I stopped the domeridone. It seems that as you heal your body is more able to produce milk-I mean think about it. All galactagogues work on the gut! So, after not producing for either child and now having healed my gut I guess I will be a prime candidate for experimentation...due in nine weeks. I can say the changes have been phenomenal-the smallest one being going from dry breasts to actually having milk.

I wish I could refer you somewhere to read about it...I have an IBCLC that you could contact if you wanted more info. But, it's another step, and it's a free one. The bonus is that you get healthier in the process.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*

I wish I could refer you somewhere to read about it...*I have an IBCLC that you could contact if you wanted more info.* But, it's another step, and it's a free one. The bonus is that you get healthier in the process.

That would be awesome. I have done a "little" in the way of gut healing -- I do avoid gluten and find that helps my IBD/UC/Chron's a lot. And yes, I have noticed that all the galatactagogues work on the gut -- Motilium and Domperidone being speed-up-the-stomach emptiers, for one. Wow.


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## Panserbjorne

pm'd you. Let me know how it goes!


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## Mom2sons

Opera Mommy,

I take it nursing in the tub is exactly how it sounds. Warm water with both you just kind of hanging out nursing? Never heard that one but willing to give it a shot.

I think I will invest in a good lactaid.

Do you think the Dom helped and if so how much? Did you notice an increase?
Thanks again and I will keep you posted.


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## Panserbjorne

I relactated with ds (well-techniacally lactated as my milk never came in in the first place!) when he was four months old. I never got a full supply becaseu I didn't do the domperidone...I didn't make that mistake again! With dd I was on it within her first week. It made a huge difference for me. I second nursing in the tub, it's very calming for the babe.


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## TurboClaudia

i could never nurse in the tub because our son would get upset when i tried to get out of the tub and out of the warm water!!! he loves his water! that, and it was a tight squeeze in there anyway.

~claudia


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## tash11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2sons*
... He gets frustrated. Tried the lactaid but that did not go great. I had a starter one and may need to invest in a good one....

as far as I know there are two kits and the only diffrence between them is quantity. in the delux kit you get two lact-aids, and in the regular kit you just get one. we had trouble with at-breast-supplementation for a while, she just didnt like it, but would get frustrated when nothing would come out without it. eventually she got used to it, but she still will latch/unlatch/latch sevral times before settleing down. as long as shes trying and not crying I just let her do what she wants. Are you useing tape to hold the tube in place? they say you dont have to, but with all of her latching/unlatching I find it MUCH easier to tape it on so it doesnt move while shes figureing it out. I use hypoalergenic cloth tape, and I tape it so the tube is just past the end of my nipple. Oh, and also squeeze the bag a little to get a drop or so at the end of the tube so the baby can taste it and when he starts sucking it comes out immedatly instead of having to wait to get it to the end of the tube.


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## Gianna'sMom

I highly recommend using the tape to hold down the Lactaid, as well. My DD kept pulling on the tubing or sucking so hard she was actually sucking the tubing down her throat. The tape really helped.

BTW, things are going a little better with the Lactaid. She seems to be getting used to it. My only problem now is that she is overeating and spitting up a lot. She must be getting more breastmilk directly from my breast than I actually think because she only takes about 2-3oz from the Lactaid bag before she is done eating. Then she usually spits up some, so I'm thinking she might actually be getting an ounce or two from my breast! How exciting for me!

It is day 4 on the Dom for me and I can't say I notice any big difference, _yet_, however, I did finally get my period yesterday. I've heard that can really affect milk production, no? Great, just what I needed, another obstacle! I was glad that I was at least not having that yet . . . . . . .

I have a question about pumping . . . . . . on the BFAR site it says that getting rest is actually more beneficial to milk supply than waking yourself to pump in the middle of the night. DD is now sleeping through the nite (the past 2 weeks) and I have not been waking to pump. Is that really bad for my supply? I mean, why would I want to "trick" my body into thinking she is eating in the middle of the night when she doesn't need that feeding anyway? Could this also be why my period came back? Curious on your thoughts . . . .

Hope you are all well and thanks, as always, for listening to me!

Lisa


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
She must be getting more breastmilk directly from my breast than I actually think because she only takes about 2-3oz from the Lactaid bag before she is done eating. Then she usually spits up some, so I'm thinking she might actually be getting an ounce or two from my breast! How exciting for me!












Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
DD is now sleeping through the nite (the past 2 weeks) and I have not been waking to pump. Is that really bad for my supply? I mean, why would I want to "trick" my body into thinking she is eating in the middle of the night when she doesn't need that feeding anyway? Could this also be why my period came back? Curious on your thoughts . . . .

Hope you are all well and thanks, as always, for listening to me!

Lisa

I have heard the no overnight feeding = Aunt Flo coming back before


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## ColeysMama

I've also joined the fenugreek experiment. I mean, it was my question originally, so I figure I should try it out. I took 15 today at 12:50. I'm still going to take my usual 12 - 4 each at 5am, 1pm, and 9pm. So far, nothing, but we'll see.

MJL - AF came back soon after DS started sleeping through the night... never thought there might be a connection...


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## MarcyC

Maybe I should be thankful DD isn't sleeping through the night yet. She has slept on and off, but nothing consistently. I haven't had AF since summer 2004.


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## Panserbjorne

If your babe is EBF, then you should wake once in the night to pump. Milk removal is what stimulates the body to make more. That info generally applies to those mamas waking every two hours to pump without the babe. I would not go all night without nursing or pumping unless my little one was over a year. I used to wake several times to nurse until she was 16 months-so pumping wasn't an issue at that point. But my LC made sure I did wake to pump when she was younger and lethargic. Instead of every two hours overnight it was more like every four to five hours.


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## Gianna'sMom

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'll start setting the alarm for 2am. Generally, I've been last pumping at 11pm and she wakes to BF at 5am, either just breast or breast plus Lactaid. This is the ONLY feed during a 24-hour cycle that she will not fight about taking the breast. That is why I hesitated to remove milk in the middle of the night. I thought she was nursing first thing in the morning cause I am fuller. If I pump at 2am she probably won't nurse at 5am then . . . . . I hate to let go of the one pleasant breastfeeding session we have a day. . . . .

If I start pumping every 2 hours round the clock again (with one longer stretch of 4-5 hours in the middle of the night) will my period go away again? Or is it like, once it comes, it comes every month and that is it. Can it come and then go away with increased nursing/pumping? Curious.

Thanks


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## Panserbjorne

Some people will lose AF again-it's very individual.

How old is your babe? Use your judgement. 11 to 5 isn't that long. I ws talking more like a 9-5 situation. IF I were going to pump in your situation what *I* would do is wake a 1 am, and then sleep until the babe woke. Then you would have that extra hour to build the supply for her. But really, if you are pumping that much during the day your body could probably use that 6 hour rest.


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## TurboClaudia

totally off topic: Lisa, did you hear there's a new Gianna in the world? basketball player Kobe Bryant and his wife Vanessa welcomed their little Gianna Maria-Onore Bryant over the weekend. you can read the article at celebrity-babies.com

~claudia


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## MarcyC

Claudia,
I haven't had time to read through all these pages and pages.....

Did you have supply problems with your first? Are you still nursing? Are you concerned about having supply problems with your little one due in Sept.?


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## tash11

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT

ok. its been about 34 1/2 hours. I do feel much fuller then I useually do this time of night.


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## Gianna'sMom

Thanks for that info, *Claudia*! I also saw her name in one of those free baby magazines that you get when you have a baby (Parenting or one of those) . . . It was a "baby naming" article and it was saying how "unique ethnic names, like Gianna" were becoming more popular. I was kinda sad about seeing that because I chose it because it was only popular in the Italian neighborhoods of NE Jersey, and not so "American." Anyhow, I hope she likes her name when she grows up!

I had forgotten how miserable it is to have a cycle (sorry, I just feel silly using the term, "Aunt Flo," it reminds me of being 12 years old in Health Class or something! I guess it's a personal thing) . . . . . . . But anyway, gosh, cramps, heavy bleeding, irritability, EXHAUSTION, I almost feel like I'd rather be pregnant . . . . .

Speaking of, I have been having these intense feelings of wanting to get pregnant again soon . . . . . . . . It sounds crazy considering that I had a HORRIBLE pregnancy (physically) but emotionally, I had never felt better in my whole life. I just love being a mommy and I want more, soon! DH wants us to wait at least a year (which I think is very sound) but I've been fantasizing a lot about it lately . . . . . .

Is everybody having a good milk day?

Lisa


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## Gianna'sMom

My above message posted twice. Sorry. I went back into the second (repeat) post and deleted the text, but I can't get rid of this "space" here now. How do I remove this?


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## tash11

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT

ok, just encountered a side effect. glad I only took 10. won't be doing this again...............










baby might be having the same side effect. she just had a diaper change and is being really fussy....


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## Mom2sons

I got 2 oz. when I pumped this morning. Could not even believe it . I have not received my Dom yet but am hopeful that if and when it comes in - I will see that kind of production regularly. Granted it was six hours since the last time DS fed or I pumped but hey - small victories count.

Tried the lactaid thing again last nite but my starter kit is not working. The formula is not making it to the babe. I think I need to go with the better one in order to make him successful. DS had one good session last nite but awoke at 5:00 not too happy about the breast. I try not to get discouraged. Since I work, he is BF throughout the day so I have less of an opportunity to get him used the breast again. But I would be happy even supplying a few bottles of milk a day. (That is my big dream.)

By the way, my best friend had premature twins whose names are Gemma and Gianna. Her husband is Croatian and wanted European names. Also - just a thought that Gianna's gain in popularity could be from the food channel star Gianna Delaurentis.


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## ColeysMama

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT V. 3.0

Took another 4 last night, and this morning. Nothing yet. Pumped about 3/4 oz at 7:30, but I didn't pump or nurse as much as I wanted yesterday, so I was expecting a little less.

Will pump again at 9:30, 11:30, 1:30, and 3:30...

I am thinking about getting a Lact-Aid. Cole doesn't want to nurse very much lately because it's frustrating to him. It takes a minute to start going and there's never enough, so unless he's had a bottle or solids recently, he won't take it; he just fusses till I give him a bottle, then I have to pump. I don't know if I want to spend the money, though - I've already spent so much, on herbs, the dom stuff, the hospital-grade pump rental (the PIS was free; that's one advantage of being a Marine Mama).... it's been about $180 so far, plus batteries to use the pump on car trips, and all those little things. I don't know if it would be worth it.... any thoughts?


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## Mom2sons

Coley's mama,

I hear you on the amount of money being spent. Between all the lactation consulting at the beginning, the pump rental and herbs, I am probably in the hole around $300. I can submit some of it for reimbursement to the insurance company hoping that they will deem it reimburseable. I am lucky to have come into some money this past year that is all my own so I am just telling myself that I will not buy those new clothes that I wanted.

I look at it that is all what is important to you. If you feel that the ounce or two you get is worth it - keep going strong. It may take a while to see some progress so patience is key. I know it is terrible when the little guy gets frustrated - I really just wish we could go back in time and have a redo.


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## MarcyC

Just my two cents: I didn't care for the lact-aid. I do much better with the SNS. I sold my lact-aid system on ebay.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Ugh. Money stuff. Ugh.

Between the pump rental, then purchase, then the domperidone, and the more milk plus herbal stuff, and the herbal tea, and the pills..... ugh.

DH said I thought bfing was supposed to save us money?

Ugh.


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## ColeysMama

Mom2sons - I just want him to nurse. He used to be the complete opposite - loved to nurse, would take a bottle if it was offered, but it wasn't his preference. Now, he will sometimes nurse, sometimes not. When he does, I have to do breast compression almost the entire time to keep him interested, or he'll arch his back and yell. It's actually rather funny, how dramatic he is about it. But still...

Right now, I'm not going to get any sort of SNS. I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing, and if he doesn't want to nurse at a particular time, I'll pump. Hopefully someday we'll want his boobies back.


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## tash11

For people having trouble with the Lact-Aid: it can be used like a finger feeder. my mil does this when she sits. this way even if you are having trouble with baby latching onto the breast threre doesnt need to be a bottle involved. When we were having trouble with it at first I did this at least once a day.

I will agree that it can get expensive, lets see: 33isis, 220LC, 80PR, 65LA, 30MMPS, 15FS, 50sup, 40E... and thats just in 3 months.... I expect the cost to go down to about $30 a month now that we have things worked out.
but thats still nothing compared to the $1200-$2000 a year in formula costs alone for people who eff. then you have to add in bottles, and extra doctors visits.


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## MarcyC

Pump In Style......................$100 (bought used from neighbor)
Lactation Services................$200
LLL Membership....................$ 40
Boxes of Mothers Milk Tea......$ 30 (approx.)
Domperidone........................$200
Reglan Prescription................$ 20
Formula to supplement via SNS$100
SNS's..................................$ 30 (one given to me free, 3 others bought
on ebay and/or MDC trading post)
Zoloft Prescription.................$240 (since I'm depressed over not
being able to BF)
Various Herbs.......................$200

Being Able to Nurse My Baby...PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TurboClaudia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Being Able to Nurse My Baby...PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

























~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

ColeysMama,

I just wanted to say that I'm right there with you . . . . . not that it's any consolation, but I'm going through the same thing. Especially what you said about breast compressions . . . . I CANNOT nurse DD without compressing. Also, I can't pump much without doing it either. I really need to get a hands free kit for the pump b/c it's hard to compress when double pumping.

Also, my DH gives me a hard time (jokingly) about how breastfeeding was supposed to save us all this money that we would have spent on formula had I decided to bottle feed. But between the pumps, meds, herbs, storage bags, lactaid, etc., I've spent way more than I would have on formula feeding! It's all worth it though. Every last cent.

Hope ya'll are having a good day!

Oh, the lady on the food channel is "Giatta," not "Gianna." That was our second choice name.

Lisa


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## operamommy

Mom2sons, the dom has definately helped. I'd say I began seeing a definate increase within a week or two. But geez....2 ounces!! That's awesome!

Gianna'sMom, I noticed your question about cycles, dom, pumping, etc. For me, dom has stopped my cycles. I understand that's a common side effect. I don't think it's nursing that has stopped them, because I don't pump or nurse in the middle of the night. Ds sleeps through and I'm too lazy to get up and pump. Ok, maybe not lazy, but my iron is low right now and I'm super-sick without enough sleep.


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## MaryJaneLouise

*GOOD NEWS!!!!!!* New subforum SOON!!!!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
I think we can provide something. Just give me some time to pull guidelines together. But I will clarify that this will be a forum for helping address supply issue and will not be a "formula feeding" forum. We have already made the decision that such a forum is not ours to do here at MDC. If there are no concerns with that then I'll be glad to work on getting a low milk supply focused subforum going.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=1#post5047364


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## Gianna'sMom

*Operamommy,*

Thanks for the info . . . . . I look forward to losing it again, soon! I have been on Dom for 4 full days (today is my 5th) at 120mg and I haven't seen any increase yet. Everything I've read online says that most people notice an increase within 3-4 days, if not immediately. Most of the ladies here have said it takes a week or two . . . . . I should hang in here, right? I guess I just need to know it's going to increase for me. That is, if it even works for me.

That would be awesome to have a special low supply sub-forum. It will be cool to be able to use subject lines so we can all more easily find what we're looking for. *MaryJane*, thanks for doing the work on that (I think *Claudia* was pushing for it too, no?) Anyway, thanks ladies!

Lisa


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## Panserbjorne

Don't give up hope mamas! With all this $ talk I just had to chime in. We spent over $5000 (sold our house because we didn't have the $) on LC's, domperidone, herbs, supplements, pumps, CST, testing, med visits etc...but my 2 year old girl is still nursing because of it! Our situation was extreme, I'm not saying that you all will spend that much-but it got us where we needed to be. And i kinda like apartment living...


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## Gianna'sMom

Wow, you sold your home?! Your husband must be as devoted to this as you are (I mean, of course he's devoted to your children, but I mean to breastfeeding and proper nutrition). My husband wants to see me succeed, but I think he would insist we formula feed before he put our house on the market.

Still nursing at 2! You're an inspiration to me!

Lisa


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## ColeysMama

FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT V. 3.0:

I'm beginning to think I am immune to the effects of fenugreek. 12 a day, plus 15 on Monday afternoon... and nothing. Total pumped so far today: 1.25 oz. (2 pumpings). Yesterday, pumped 5x for a total of 2.75 oz.

This really really sucks. I just hope the dom comes in soon, and that it works...


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## ACsMom

Yeah, I'd do just about anything to keep bf'ing as long as possible. If for no other reason than to see the look on dd's face when she sees the boob coming at her!

We're thinking of selling our house anyway, as part of our plan to keep me at home with baby. We have certainly spent our share on LC's, pump, herbs, etc.


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## MarcyC

I think DH would draw the line at selling the house. He's already drawn the line (or at least tried to) several times. It helps that I'm on an "allowance" system. I buy the groceries and household incidentals and anything left over after that is MINE! I don't have to tell DH what I do with it or justify it at all. It's JUST MINE! So If I save for a few weeks, I can usually order dom or save for an LC visit - who needs new clothes or shoes anyway, right!?!? My (rich & single) sister will buy them clothes from the mall while I shop at the Salvation Army store just so I can afford and LC visit. Some might say my priorities are mixed up, but.....


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## Panserbjorne

I was still terribly depressed about not being able to nurse ds, and we had answers for dd. She also had other issues that insurance wouldn't cover-so selling the house was how we paid for her to get well. BF was a huge part of that equation-but yes, he is dedicated


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## Gianna'sMom

I'm a fellow Salvation Army shopper myself! It's so amazing how quickly my priorities changed when I had this little baby.

Hey, has anyone ever had a lowered supply due to a cold? I have a pretty good head/chest cold right now and I had a slighter pumping session this AM . . . . . .

THANKS AS ALWAYS

Lisa


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## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT V. 3.0:

I'm beginning to think I am immune to the effects of fenugreek. 12 a day, plus 15 on Monday afternoon... and nothing. Total pumped so far today: 1.25 oz. (2 pumpings). Yesterday, pumped 5x for a total of 2.75 oz.

This really really sucks. I just hope the dom comes in soon, and that it works...

Ah Marilyn. That does really suck. Are you just trying the pills? I found it more effective to use both the pills & blessed thistle + More Milk Plus www.motherlove.com


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## Greensleeves

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
FENUGREEK EXPERIMENT V. 3.0:

I'm beginning to think I am immune to the effects of fenugreek. 12 a day, plus 15 on Monday afternoon... and nothing. Total pumped so far today: 1.25 oz. (2 pumpings). Yesterday, pumped 5x for a total of 2.75 oz.

This really really sucks. I just hope the dom comes in soon, and that it works...

Hey there........I just popped in here..........I don't know if it's already been recommended to you, but have you tried any of the Motherlove tinctures? I used the More Milk Plus special blend and I think it made a big difference. I was using it in conjunction with Dom, and pumping.........I was ready for full scale battle this time.


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## Greensleeves

oops x posted with Maryjanelouise.


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## Panserbjorne

fenugreek does not work for everyone. You may do much better with a different herb. Are you smelling it on yourself yet? If you aren't dont' give up hope. You may need a different form. I always found the pills were useless. I used either a tincture or made an infusion with the seeds.

Also- are you doing domperidone? Fenugreek (well, any herb) will increase supply-but it will not establish supply. That's where the dom comes in handy.


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## MarcyC

I just ordered Shatavari (also spelled Shatawari) from Herbmark. I'm another person who doesn't smell like maple syrup, even on 18 pills/day. I checked my package with UPS tracking and it's scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Maybe it will be the magic pill. How crazy is it that she's over a year and I could be JUST NOW finding the answer!?!?

Question for all of you: are planning on doing any kind of extended nursing. DD is almost 13 months and I'm considering weaning soon. I'll be out of Dom soon and honestly cannot afford any more. I'm seriously thinking about offering whole milk in a sippy. I wouldn't mind 2-3 nursings a day - maybe early morning, naptime and bedtime, but I'm considering some serious weaning (







:







: hiding from the hard core lactivists...). Would weaning be awful? I believe in the 2-year rule, but as a low-supply mom, I just don't know if I can go on.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*

Question for all of you: are planning on doing any kind of extended nursing. DD is almost 13 months and I'm considering weaning soon. I'll be out of Dom soon and honestly cannot afford any more. I'm seriously thinking about offering whole milk in a sippy. I wouldn't mind 2-3 nursings a day - maybe early morning, naptime and bedtime, but I'm considering some serious weaning (







:







: hiding from the hard core lactivists...). Would weaning be awful? I believe in the 2-year rule, but as a low-supply mom, I just don't know if I can go on.

Argh, Marcy... I'm right there with you. I HATE having to pump during the day. I'm OK with affording the 40 mg of dom I take every day... and the more milk plus... but the pumping... If I continue to work, is HELL


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## zaksma

I hope that this is not inappropriate to post here but I have a few formula samples that I would love to pass along to any of you that might be supplementing if you would like to have it. I'm not sure what else to do with it beyond donating it to a women's shelter or something along those lines- but I thought someone here might need it. I have some Similac (just a few of the single use pouch thingies), Isomil, and Enfamil- all powdered. Please PM me if you would like it. Again, I hope this is okay to post here.


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## Panserbjorne

So why not stop the pumping and dom and just let her/him nurse as he/she wants? IT's about much more than milk. You have put in all the effort that's required of you! I wouldn't give cow's milk (unless it was raw-but *I* wouldn't even then) Maybe it's just time you relax and enjoy the nursing bond. IF there's frustration over a lack of milk and your babe chooses to wean, so be it. Honestly though, most don't. It's just comforting for them!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
So why not stop the pumping and dom and just let her/him nurse as he/she wants? IT's about much more than milk. You have put in all the effort that's required of you! I wouldn't give cow's milk (unless it was raw-but *I* wouldn't even then) Maybe it's just time you relax and enjoy the nursing bond. IF there's frustration over a lack of milk and your babe chooses to wean, so be it. Honestly though, most don't. It's just comforting for them!

I realize it's more than just the milk... but at 13 months, I think they still need the milk too. And I remember the days of "dry" nursing (before I started dom), verrrry uncomfortable









It's just hard to give up when you've worked so hard to achieve something.


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## ColeysMama

firefaery - I am not doing dom yet, but I have ordered some. The website said it would take 10-14 days to arrive (sadly, no option for rush shipping).

I was smelling the fenugreek, but I'm not anymore. I don't know if it's lost the effect, or if it's just that I'm drinking so much water, the smell isn't noticeable (my pee is completely clear, all the time).


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## Polkadots

Head and chest cold - Ugh I have it. It's HORRIBLE. My milk supply is holding up ok but we did experience a bit of a nursing strike. I finally figured out it was because I scared him when I sneezed/coughed. It would startle him and then the next time I would nurse him he would have none of it.

Now I just keep a pillow close by and bury my face in it.


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## Gianna'sMom

*ColeysMama,*

I think globaldrug JUST got rid of the expedited shipping option because it was taking too long and people were complaining about paying the extra $30 and it not arriving any sooner than the regular 14 days it takes for regular mail. I made that mistake myself . . . paid $30 and it took 13 days anyway.

I just ordered it again yesterday (trying to make sure that I don't run out) and I noticed that the rush shipping option was gone this time. I just started the Dom on Friday. . . .

I pray it works for us!

*Hey Marci,* you're sick too? It's terrible, I can barely breathe. All I want to do is sleep! Do you happen to know if Sudafed and Flonase are ok for breastfeeding? What do you take when you're sick? That's a good idea about the pillow . . . . . . . . .. I realized once that I scared DD when I was yelling at my dogs while nursing. The poor thing was so frightenend, I felt awful! How are you these days?

Lisa


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## MarcyC

I don't think I would take ANY cold medicine while nursing. Cold medicines work to "dry up" your sinuses and could also "dry up" other things, kwim? Try lots of herbal tea - more excuses to drink Mother's Milk Tea and maybe some nasal spray - my LLL Leader said she used Afrin when she had a cold.


----------



## MarcyC

Yes, I know nursing is about more than milk, kinda, at this age...I don't know...

sorry rambling........

I really don't want to 'dry nurse' and I'm not quite ready for her to wean b/c there's nothing there. I don't know what I want to do right now. I'm completely on the fence...

She's not sleeping well lately - teething combined with a cold and fluid in her ears (although it's not an ear infection, just nice fluid)...

Maybe I'll think clearly when I've had some rest. And a shower - how is it that days can go by.........................?


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## TurboClaudia

Lisa: DON'T TAKE SUDAFED!!! it can affect many women's breastmilk supply, even those who don't have low milk issues. try lots of hot liquids, herbal tea, soup, etc. and hot steamy showers to help clear up the congestion. sending you healthy vibes...

to briefly answer someone's question about whether i'm worried about supply issues with this new babe, yes, i am. i'm especially worried because i doubt that i can go to the lengths that i went to with our son because i will not only have this new babe but also a 2 year old to care for. although i know some women have taken metformin/glucophage in pregnancy to help with breast tissue development, i'm not open to that so i suppose i'm just willing to take my chances. my breasts are feeling bigger than before in this pregnancy, but i'm still a full b cup where i was a barely b before. i will be much more vigilant after baby is born, of course, but i also know that i don't want to be too obsessive. right now, i'm just trying to plan for the help with our son that i will need after this new babe arrives. i told bill that my dream would be for him to take 6 weeks off from work when babe is born, but i also told him that i may not feel like i need him that whole time so he might be able to go back earlier, like after 3-4 weeks, but to prepare for 6 weeks. my mom has also said she would like to come and help us out for a month and that would be a dream, too. my mom is an even better cook than bill, not to mention a better housekeeper.









so yes, i'm worried. but i know the right resources to call upon now and i know the signs to watch for and i just know a lot more. my next wish is to connect with a local mama who is due around the same time who would be willing to pump milk for us...

~claudia


----------



## redebeth

Mommyto3girls - Thanks for that thyroid information. I'm haven't gotten my results yet but I feel a little more educated thanks to your post. In regards to dom and pumping, do you find it ever makes your milk, well, funky? I read that somewere and sure enough when I pumped and froze, upon reheating my milk was skunky-ish. That was not a hit with the babe. The Medela info says to scald it but, really, it seems like cooked frozen milk wouldn't be very nutritous. But what do I know! - Elizabeth p.s. I agree with firefaery's comment about different herbs working for different women. Fenugreek never did anything for me but strong stinging nettle tea with a pretty low amount of dom (30-40 mg.) often keeps me full all day long. Susan Weed has a good book (herbal) that I think has quite a few galactalogues (sp?). So try lots of different herbs!


----------



## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redebeth*
In regards to dom and pumping, do you find it ever makes your milk, well, funky? I read that somewere and sure enough when I pumped and froze, upon reheating my milk was skunky-ish. That was not a hit with the babe. The Medela info says to scald it but, really, it seems like cooked frozen milk wouldn't be very nutritous.

It's possible that your milk has too much lipase and that this turns it funky. Scalding it may reduce the antibodies but it's still the best for your baby!

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/l...essedmilk.html


----------



## redebeth

Thanks Quirky, that's a good link. I never had this problem before the domperidone. My milk was plenty the first two months and I froze quite a bit w/o this problem. I just wonder if anyone else had this happen while on dom. - Eliz


----------



## JenInMpls

Only time I ever had funky breast milk was when I ate asparagus and woke up with lots of milk (I actually was on Domperidone at the time, so had more milk when I woke up in the mornings) and was sniffing around... why do I smell asparagus? -- well, you know, it's one of those food smells that get excreted in bodily fluids... including breast milk! Yes, asparagus milk... mmm. T didn't seem to mind!


----------



## mommyto3girls

My frozen milk always seems to have a soapy type smell, but Sage doesn't mind so I have never tried scalding it.

Redbeth- I can't remember if I posted this, but my doc hates syntheroid, says do not take it as it does not act like normal thyroid hormone in your body. He only prescribes Armour. Also he said if I nurse Sage for 4-6 months on the Armour she will never have thyroid problems


----------



## JenInMpls

My friend had a soapy smell and taste to her frozen milk and it went away when she stopped using bags and started using the glass bottles that Medela makes.


----------



## henhao

hey all,

just popping in to say hello...and send smiles to everyone. =) =)

hh


----------



## ColeysMama

Has anyone ever had side effects with the domperidone? I did a quick google search and apparently it's illegal; it can cause heart problems, etc. I already ordered some - oops! - and am still going to take it because I am just that desperate. But I was wondering if any of you had bad experiences.


----------



## manatee

Hi all,

I just found this thread and wanted to introduce myself. My dd is almost 9 months old and has been EBF. She is now eating 3 meals of solids a day but still get plenty of milk. I work full time and pump 3 times when I'm at work. I also nurse her at night/morning and on weekends.

My supply used to be great but has been dipping over the last few months. I've tried Fenugreek and all other kinds of milk boosters but it's not really helping. I don't want to wean her and have to give her formula as I'm really trying to EBF her for a year. Just wanted to introduce myself and let you all know my situation.

Thanks.


----------



## ColeysMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *manatee*
My supply used to be great but has been dipping over the last few months. I've tried Fenugreek and all other kinds of milk boosters but it's not really helping.

Are you pumping more often? Try adding another pumping session at work if you can. Nurse her right before you leave in the morning and right away after work. Pump after nursing. Some women get up in the middle of the night to pump... I've done it a couple of times - DS has been sleeping through the night since he was 2 months old, pretty much. Get creative and see where you can add extra nursing or pumping sessions. www.workandpump.com has good ideas.


----------



## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
Has anyone ever had side effects with the domperidone? I did a quick google search and apparently it's illegal; it can cause heart problems, etc. I already ordered some - oops! - and am still going to take it because I am just that desperate. But I was wondering if any of you had bad experiences.

I think some people on this thread have reported side effects of headaches and/or low blood sugar issues with dom but I don't remember for sure. Overall it is a very safe drug when taken orally - it's an over the counter medication in many countries. The heart effects are associated with high doses via IV.

The reason the FDA has banned importation really has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the national politics around drug importation/lower prices in other countries. Because domperidone is an OTC med overseas and has already gone generic, the drug company has no incentive to go through the US approval process because they won't make any money on it.

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/19a-domperidone1.html

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/19b-domperidone2.html

http://66.230.33.248/discus/messages...tml?1145394488


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
Has anyone ever had side effects with the domperidone?

The only side effect I've noticed is quicker to hunger, and some weight gain. And increased lactation







.

Glad you are educating yourself on the issue of domperidone. No one should take it unless they are completely comfortable with it.


----------



## Polkadots

Although I believe you all, I've been sick with a horrendous head cold and took a couple decongestant tablets but didn't notice a change in my milk supply at all. In fact, I have been abundant the last week or so.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Polkadots*
Although I believe you all, I've been sick with a horrendous head cold and took a couple decongestant tablets but didn't notice a change in my milk supply at all. In fact, I have been abundant the last week or so.

Well you're just going to have to get a head cold every week.








JUST KIDDING!


----------



## Polkadots

LMAO MaryJane!!!!

That's so funny - my partner and I both had these horrible colds and after we got over the initial "afeared of the big sneezing mommy" syndrome, Eli was the most content and happy member of the family camped out at the breast with a big smile on his face.

Lisa - thanks for asking, this cold has been holding on for DAYS now and I'm really ready for it to go away. Hope you're feeling better and made it through.


----------



## MarcyC

Hi girls! Wanna have some fun! I thought we could have some fun with the differences between a "normal" nursing mom and a "low supply" nursing mom.

Regular nursing mom:














"Oh no...I'm leaking!"

Low supply nursing mom:














: "I'm LEAKING!!!!!"


----------



## Gianna'sMom

I've had a head cold all week too and DD has been running a fever and had diarreah (sp?). Now the cold is finally going away but is moving into the back of my nose, like postnasal congestion. Yuck.

Day 9 on Domperidone . . . . I noticed a good bit of an increase yesterday and today in my morning pumping sessions, but no significant increase the rest of the day. I think that is a start, no? DD is using the Lactaid almost exclusively. I don't understand why she won't nurse in the morning though . . . . I am very full and pumped 6 ounces yesterday morning and 5 ounces this morning. That is enough for a full meal for her, yet she won't "go and get it!" I don't understand why . . . . She's so used to the Lactaid and the full/continous flow, I guess. I was thinking that when my supply increased she would start nursing again, but I guess not :-(

I like your jokes, Marcy. They definitely keep things light, which is necessary when you're dealing with this problem! Thanks!

Lisa


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## MarcyC

Lisa,
I've heard that can be one of the down sides of using an SNS or lact-aid system. With the SNS, especially, the flow is much more steady. With the lact-aid, I've heard, that the baby has to suck much harder and it more closely mimics the effort they have to put into breastfeeding. But I have heard that a down side is that they get used to continuous flow or a more steady flow. I've even heard that the systems can "reward" babies who have a bad latch, kwim?

One thing I've heard works good to improve flow is lecithin. You may want to give that a try. I didn't notice a difference on it, though, but I think it works for some people. Also try drinking Gatorade. I have no idea the theory behind that, but I've heard it helps some people with flow.

You're a super mama! Keep up the great work!


----------



## MarcyC

Claudia -- I think it's AWESOME that you're going to try again. How many times do you hear pregnant women say, "I tried to nurse dc#1 and it didn't work so I'm not even going to try with this one." ? YOU GO, MAMA!!!! You can do it this time!!!


----------



## amm0406

just joining up and trying to prepare myself... I had low supply with baby #1 and am hoping it doesn't happen with baby 2. i want to be prepared come November!


----------



## redebeth

Gianna'sMom - I feel like I spent all winter sick, with milk stuggles and sick kids. It all adds to the stress so much - I just get grumpy. You sound like you are handling it like a pro.







MarcyC is right - you're doing a great job!!


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## MarcyC

Oxytocin nasal spray does not boost milk output

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A nasal spray containing the hormone oxytocin, which is essential to the production and flow of breast milk, does not improve milk output in mothers expressing milk for preterm infants, a study shows.
"Mothers may experience difficulties in expressing breast milk for infants too immature or sick to breast feed," Dr. M.S. Fewtrell, of the Institute of Child Health in London, and colleagues explain. "Oxytocin has been used to assist breast feeding and milk expression, but few data are available to support this intervention in the neonatal unit setting."

They examined whether oxytocin nasal spray increased early milk output in mothers expressing milk for preterm infants. Fifty-one mothers who delivered infants before 35 weeks gestation were randomized to oxytocin nasal spray or placebo spray.

The mothers used the spray before expression of milk with an electric pump for 5 days. Complete 5-day milk records were available and analyzed for 21 mothers in each group.

There was no significant difference in total milk production between the groups. Although the pattern of milk production was initially different between the two groups, with the oxytocin group producing more milk on day 1 and day 2, at the end of the trial, the placebo group produced more milk.

Although oxytocin spray did not improve early milk production, there was some evidence that the mothers benefited from the lactation support that was available during the study, "illustrating the importance of psychological factors and support in lactation, particularly in this vulnerable group of mothers," the authors note.

SOURCE: Archives of Diseases in Childhood, Fetal and Neonatal Edition, May 2006


----------



## ColeysMama

My supply is up. Not a huge amount, but it's up. At 5:45 this morning, I pumped 1 1/4 oz. Then at 8:45, 1 1/2 oz. At 12, 1 oz. I normally have to pump 5-6 times to get this much - 3 3/4 oz total!

So either the fenugreek has finally taken effect (12 per day for over a week now), or it's because of all the oatmeal. I made oatmeal cookies last night and ate waaaay too much cookie dough. Who knows? I don't care; I'm just happy I have milk, and hope this continues.

Come to think of it, Cole didn't have as many bottles as usual this weekend, and seemed more satisfied with nursing.... I feel all


----------



## Vixxen

That's awesome!! Congrats! Sending you more milky vibes that this keeps up!


----------



## JenInMpls

marilyn
















jen


----------



## MarcyC

Marilyn - So happy for you! What a great feeling!


----------



## ColeysMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Marilyn - So happy for you! What a great feeling!









Thanks... I just hope this is permanent, and it continues to increase. 4 oz a day is better than 2 oz a day, but 6 or 8 would be ideal, kwim?

Another possible explanation: AF just ended.

All these factors make it annoying in a way, because I don't know what caused this; therefore I don't know what to do to keep it going. I suppose I should just keep doing what I've been doing. But if there were one specific thing that I could do extra of, that would be so nice.


----------



## leahida

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColeysMama*
All these factors make it annoying in a way, because I don't know what caused this; therefore I don't know what to do to keep it going. I suppose I should just keep doing what I've been doing. But if there were one specific thing that I could do extra of, that would be so nice.

I hear you...some days are milkier than others, and I have no idea why...haven't gotten AF back at 5 months post-partum, but wonder what that will do when it returns.

at this point I am just pumping and taking dom, so there are not a lot of variables to isolate. I am thinking of adding herbs in again (I got burnt out for a while on all the capsules, teas, and tinctures


----------



## tash11

until we get our own forum why dont we just start new threads and label them something like "LMS-subject"?

That would make it a LOT easier to find things. I try to keep up with this one but its hard, and I am lazy







seeing the subjects seperated would make finding info or awnsering questions much easier.


----------



## Mom2sons

I finally got my Domperidone and want some advice on how to start. I know that the recommended dosage for low milk supply is around 80-90 mgs. I have been reading up and noticed that one of the side effects could be a headache and some people start out slow to avoid the headache.

Unfortunately, I am on jury duty and am a bit afraid of the side effects but I don't think I can wait much longer as my DS is getting older by the day. If I have any chance of bringing him back to the breast, I need to do it now. I guess I am a bit nervous that I may have to go to the bathroom a lot and pump more often which will annoy the jurors. (Have not gotten called for a case yet.) So what do you ladies recommend - go full throttle or start out slow. Have any of you experienced the above side effects? How often do you take it a day - 3 or 4 times ? I have heared that you should take an hour and 1/2 after eating for maximum effect? What about before you go to sleep?

Opera Mommy - Have not seen you on this thread in a while and wanted to give you an update. DS is starting to nurse pretty well. He still takes a bottle/ formula during the day mostly (one BM bottle a day is what I am pumping.) He nurses at night (after midnight) however -usually still have to supplement. I don't know if it is because he is groggy and I am full but we get our best sessions at night. We even had a decent nursing session at 8:00 in the evening. How is it going for you?

Hope to hear all the advice.


----------



## tash11

I would try it anyway Mom2sons, but thats me. and if I were to do it (I havent tried dom) I would start slow just to see. And who cares if the other jurors are upset, your kid is more important. and pumping more will prolly help your supply anyway.

also have you looked into getting like an empty office or supply room (







) to pump in instead of the bathroom?


----------



## redebeth

Mom2sons - Breastfeeding is a totally legit reason to not do jury duty. They just make you promise to do it in a year. I checked a box on my form and sent it back and voila. If I was trying as hard as you are, I wouldn't want to be on a jury. Then again I'm in California so I don't know if the laws are different.


----------



## jenny-g

Hi!

Quick update here. I got my dom about a week ago (thank god for these boards and the suggestion to use globaldrug.tv!!). I think I have a slight increase in supply- I can get 2 oz total sometimes, but always at least an oz total now. No side effects yet.

My "normal" thyroid, on the other hand, were the LOWEST numbers in the range. I'm so pissed off that doctors look at that and assume you are ok- people can still have symptoms if they are at the bottom of the range. My T3 WAS the lowest number of the range. So now I'm really pissed. I've inceased my synthroid, but I really want to get on armour, but not only do any doctors I know not prescribe that, we at the moment don't have health insurance. I'm leery of switching to it, even if I could get it, without monitoring my levels.

So this confirms to me that my thyroid was mismanaged throughout my pregnancy, and I'm really steamed about it. Ugh.

Baby's crying, more later







. BTW, fenugeek did nothing for me, but the dom really is making at least a small change!


----------



## ColeysMama

Jenny G - congrats! Any increase, no matter how small, is worth celebrating.

How long did it take you to get the dom? I ordered mine over 2 weeks ago, and haven't received anything yet. I'm getting a bit impatient.


----------



## redebeth

I received a card from my m.d. that says my thyroid's normal also, but I will call to get a copy of the results. Armour is available at 1drug.com but you didn't hear that from me







That's where I used to get my dom until you good folks told me about global.


----------



## redebeth

sorry about that frownie face that was an accident and I can't get it off!


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Hey All!

Greetings from milkland! Today is day 12 on the Dom and WOW! JUST, WOW!

I wish I had started this a long time ago! This morning, I woke up and my breasts HURT SO BAD . . . . they were so full they felt like bowling balls. I have never felt anything like that, not even when my milk initially came in after delivery. One time a few weeks ago when I had surgery I had gone 24 hours without nursing or pumping and I didn't get as full as I now get overnight with Dom. I finally understand what people mean when they say they get "uncomfortable" if their baby doesn't nurse for a long stretch of time and how they get so full. I finally know what that means! I am so impressed with this stuff!

I am only getting about 50% more milk during other times of the day (pumping about 2 or 3 ounces at a time during the evening hours) but in the mornings/early afternoon sessions I can now get anywhere from 5-10 oz. . . . .

My only problem is getting DD back to the breast. We are still using Lactaid and she will nurse in the middle of the night and first thing in the morning on a bare breast, but once she "wakes up for the day" and realizes what is going on, she refuses to nurse without the Lactaid. Other than "skin to skin" does anyone have any advice for getting her back to me? I am going to try gatorade and lecithan, although I'm not sure I understand why!

Thanks all for listening to me and for all your kind words of encouragement. I honestly do not think I could have made it this far without this message board. I would have given up weeks ago, so thank you.

I hope everyone's enjoying milky days!

Lisa

*PS- Mom2sons;* I didn't have any side effects whatsoever with the Dom. No headache or anything. I jumped right into it at 120mg a day . . . . . .


----------



## MarcyC

Yea for milky days and no side effects! Awesome, mama!!!!

Even on 100 mg. of Dom, DD would only nurse "bare breast" at night and early am, she always wanted the SNS other times of the day. I've only been able to get her 100% bare breast now that she's over a year and solids are making up more of her diet.


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Marcy,

But you did eventually get her to nurse on her own (without SNS), right? I mean, even if it is because of solids, it can still happen, right?! That's awesome. . . .

I did get an additional Lactaid, so now I have two and I'm not spending as much time washing that darn thing! That was the biggest task; to wash it as soon as she was done eating, and fill it up again for next time. Between pumping, nursing, and cleaning/preparing that Lactaid, I have no time for anything else!

I am praying for more milk for everyone here (honestly, I believe in the power of prayer and you are all in my thoughts).

Lisa


----------



## MarcyC

Yes, I did eventually get her to nurse without the SNS. She doesn't nurse with as much enthusiasm and vigor, but since she's over a year, I'm letting most of her diet be solids and nursing be secondary, rather than during the first year when bm and/or formula should be their primary nutrition and solids secondary. (whew...that was a long sentence!)

I do still sometimes use the SNS for her last feeding at night (somewhere between 9:00-10:00). Just want to make sure her tummy is full before bedtime. Although lately that hasn't made a difference. Her internal clock is stuck at 3:00 a.m.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
I am going to try gatorade and lecithan, although I'm not sure I understand why!.

Lecithin is to help keep you milk flowing & to prevent plugged ducts... not a good thing. And potentially possible with your new "rock-boobies"









Dunno about the gatorade... maybe to help with hydration and electrolyte balance? NEver heard that one.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Has everyone tried breast compression to get your flow up to snuff, after you've started getting more milk (like post-Dom)?

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/15bre...mpression.html

I've tried co-bathing to help get my one disinterested DS in nursing:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...to-breast.html


----------



## Gianna'sMom

MaryJane,

I couldn't imagine nursing/pumping _without_ compression. I am actually having a carpal tunnel flare-up (after years of remission) from so much compression. Have you tried it yet? It really makes the difference for me. I don't even understand how people nurse without doing it. I guess some women have flow without it. Not me. Let me know how you make out!

Lisa


----------



## TurboClaudia

hey mamas, i spotted this thread where the mama is looking for info about an sns for her twins: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=449414

i am going to post tomorrow (maybe tonight) what i can to help. if others want to post too, that would be great.

~claudia


----------



## jenny-g

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
MaryJane,

I couldn't imagine nursing/pumping _without_ compression. I am actually having a carpal tunnel flare-up (after years of remission) from so much compression. Have you tried it yet? It really makes the difference for me. I don't even understand how people nurse without doing it. I guess some women have flow without it. Not me. Let me know how you make out!

Lisa

OMG

Me too. Double-handed compression. This is why I need handsfree pumping (I do the rubber band trick with the bravado bra cups holding the cups on- works great). It's hard to try to nurse her since I need both hands for compression.

DOM is only having a slight effect, but I started on 90/day. I think I'll ramp up to 120 for a couple of weeks to see if it makes any more of a difference.

It's great you can pump so much! I think if I ever, EVER saw more than 1 oz from a breast, I would faint. After sleeping for seven hours once (husband didn't wake me up!), I still got less than 1oz per breast. (grumbles!) -j


----------



## redebeth

Gianna'sMom - Your post brought me back. Dom's a lifesaver. I just wish I knew about it with #1 or I could figure out how to get it with #2. #3 has reached 6 months now 90% breastfed and that is a record for me. All because of dom. But she is starting to prefer a bottle to breast. I don't know if it's the heat or her 2 new teeth but man, you can lead a horse to water... All we can do is our best!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
MaryJane,

I couldn't imagine nursing/pumping _without_ compression.

Lisa

Yes, I am doing it now, but I was several weeks post partum and scouring the internet to find out about it. I guess I was just dense about the whole process, NONE of the books I read, or hospital LCs, nurses, or LLLL I talked to even hinted about this process. Talk about the basics of helping a low-supply mom! No wonder so many women quit, citing low-supply as a reason (when maybe they could have rescued their nursing relationship with just a few tips & tricks







)


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Oh, I totally understand your frustration! I got so sick and tired of LC's insinuating that there is no way I could possibly suffer from low supply. "_True_ low-supply is _so rare_, Lisa, I don't think that is your problem." Eventually I stopped soliciting help from them, and came here to this thread for all my help! That is why I credit you all with saving what little I have left of a nursing relationship. Honestly.

I don't have the hands free kit for the Medela PIS only because I have just spent so much darn money, one more thing might send me over the edge with this! I kind of hold the horns with my finger tips while I use the middle of my fingers and palms to compress (hard to describe, but it seems to work).


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenny-g*
It's great you can pump so much! I think if I ever, EVER saw more than 1 oz from a breast, I would faint. After sleeping for seven hours once (husband didn't wake me up!), I still got less than 1oz per breast. (grumbles!) -j

Jenny, I should mention that in addition to Dom, I also take Fenugreek, Calcium (with Magnesium & Zinc), Brewer's Yeast, and eat about 3000 calories a day. So those things may also be helping (it's hard to tell what is working and what is not, at this point). Also, I don't pump every 2 hours . . . . I pump anywhere from every 3-5 hours. So when I get 5oz, it's usually because it has been at least 4-5 hours or so. Trust me, I'm not producing like 10oz every two hours or anything! I gave up pumping every 2 hours because she is not nursing anyway, so at this point, I'm just pumping to make enough to fill that SNS bag. I would rather pump in one session and get what I need as opposed to pumping 2-3 times for the same amount. Call me lazy. Pumping more never did anything to increase my output anyway so I gave up on that.

Lisa


----------



## jenny-g

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
Oh, I totally understand your frustration! I got so sick and tired of LC's insinuating that there is no way I could possibly suffer from low supply. "_True_ low-supply is _so rare_, Lisa, I don't think that is your problem." Eventually I stopped soliciting help from them, and came here to this thread for all my help! That is why I credit you all with saving what little I have left of a nursing relationship. Honestly.

I don't have the hands free kit for the Medela PIS only because I have just spent so much darn money, one more thing might send me over the edge with this! I kind of hold the horns with my finger tips while I use the middle of my fingers and palms to compress (hard to describe, but it seems to work).

Hey- you don't need money for handsfree. Use the kellymom trick- hairbands attached to your nursing bra straps that go down and hook around the horns, and slip the edges of the horns just under your nursing bra (or normal bra) cups! Almost Free! I'd DIE if I weren't handsfree pumping.. I have carpel tunnel in my right hand, and my right arm is having a lot of problems too. This little trick saved me.

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/h...e-pumping.html

I agree that this site, and a few others on the web have enabled me to at least have some sort of nursing/EBM relationship with my daughter. The lactation consultants helped me with the latch.. but that WAS ALL. NO other help whatsoever. Sheesh. Thank god for the web and this group







-j


----------



## luvmyfirefly

Boy, this is an emotional issue for me but I'm going to try to spell it out without writing a novel!

Our DD Priya (pronounced pree-yuh) was diagnosed with Triple X syndrome when I had my amnio. And no, it doesn't mean that she's destined to work in the adult entertainment industry! She just has 3 X chromosomes instead of the usual 2.

I had been determined to nurse her even before I knew this, but this added extra motivation. You see, SOME Triple X girls have learning and developmental delays. Testing of some girls showed their IQ was 7-10 points lower than their non-affected siblings. Well, guess what the IQ advantage is for breastfed babies - that's right - 7-10 points. So I thought of it as just leveling the playing field for Priya.

It's a good thing I was so determined (stubborn some might say - or crazy like DH says) because we had a LOT of trouble. It was painful at first, but I was so worried about Priya gaining weight that I didn't pay a lot of attention to the pain. In the hospital she stayed latched on for HOURS at a time but was still not satisfied. AND she kept falling asleep! We thought my milk hadn't come in. So I went home with a rental pump and here was the routine:

Nurse 30 min each side
Supplement with pumped milk or formula with finger/syringe (to avoid nipple confusion)
Pump for 20 min.
Clean everything up
Start over again at 2 hours after the initial nursing

So you can see this schedule doesn't allow for much sleep! DH stayed home for the first 3 days but after that I was on my own. I never felt so desperate or like such a failure in my life. I cried most times I had to give her formula. I visited the LCs at my hospital a dozen times trying to figure out what was wrong. Her latch seemed good but her suck was very weak so she wasn't getting much. I only recently found out she has slightly low muscle tone which can be attributed to Triple X and probably led to this problem. I took every supplement I could think of (fenugreek, etc.) and ate oatmeal every day.

So I was pretty much nuts from lack of sleep for the first two months of Priya's life! I hear people talk about going out with their newborns and I think "Wow, you left the house!" I was attached to the baby or the pump and pretty much couldn't leave the bedroom. Thank God I had 12 weeks of maternity leave or I'm pretty sure Priya would have been formula fed.

So at around 8 weeks of this I found out about Domperidone that can help with milk supply and I got a prescription for it from my ob/gyn and ordered it on the internet. It helped A LOT. By around 12 weeks Priya didn't have to get formula anymore. She was getting bottles but it was all milk I pumped. We still had stops and starts with her weight gains, but that could have been due to a kidney reflux problem that we later discovered she had.

I had to take Domperidone for a few weeks again when she was 6 months old after a NASTY bout of food poisoning wiped out my supply.

I pumped at work for her until around 10 months when I suddenly stopped responding to the pump. She did get formula at daycare after that. But I kept nursing her at home (AND LOVED IT!!) until she was 18 months old, when I had to wean her to begin some meds for the fibromyalgia I developed after her birth.

But I am so proud we accomplished this, sometimes without much support. And I'm so glad I stuck it out until we got to the easy, wonderful part! If I'd stopped in the troublesome part I would have had a bad feeling about it always - not to mention the guilt!

Sometimes stubbornness is its own reward!

Jennie and Priya (8/5/03)


----------



## ColeysMama

OMG MILK!!!

So the dom finally came on Thurs. I was working late, but dh came by to bring me something and had grabbed the mail on his way out the door, so I took the box and took some. Took more before I went to bed that night. And again the next day. 3 at a time, 3 times a day. Today also. And... nothing nothing nothing nothing.

Until about an hour ago when I pumped 1 1/2 oz. Which is pretty darm amazing considering that 1) I normally don't get more than 1/2 oz at night, and 2) that was only the 3rd time I pumped today (dh and ds are out of town for a week and I couldn't go because I start school Tues, so I am EPing for a week and hopefully mailing up some milk to them).

I was about to give up, too... many thanks to whoever recommended the dom!!


----------



## Polkadots

YAY MARILYN!!!!

Congrats!


----------



## ColeysMama

So should I keep taking the fenugreek, too, or just the dom?


----------



## Mom2sons

As most of you know, my domperidone came in. I am up to 2 oz. a pump during the day and have not pumped in the a.m. as I try to let DS nurse so I don't know how much I am getting although my breasts are huge. Since I produce more milk in the right one, I am referring to that one as the "uberboob."

This morning after DS nursed, I still felt full and pumped. However, I think I may be having some issues letting down to the pump. Muy breasts still feel pretty full - not firm though. Any advice on helping the let down? I seem ot have this issue when I pump in the middle of the nite or the first pump in the a.m.. I have seen someone talk about Lethicin. What does that do? I looked it up briefly on the net and it said assists in milk flow and plugged ducts. Can I take it with Dom?

Also- DS is having a harder time nursing. I think he just went through a growth spurt. I have not tried the lactaid although I am tempted as my milk goes up. Just venting on that one.

Thanks for the support and any advice is welcome.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*
Yes, I am doing it now, but I was several weeks post partum and scouring the internet to find out about it. I guess I was just dense about the whole process, NONE of the books I read, or hospital LCs, nurses, or LLLL I talked to even hinted about this process. Talk about the basics of helping a low-supply mom! No wonder so many women quit, citing low-supply as a reason (when maybe they could have rescued their nursing relationship with just a few tips & tricks







)

Hi, I am new to the group, and am trying to figure how to post! I'm sleep-deprived from Low milk supply, and being up all night trying to nurse.

So what's this about expressing while feeding?

Can you please clue me in Mary Jane Louise? Can you tell me more? Sorry if the thread is close by, I've had 3 hours of sleep in 24 hours. What should I be doing while I nurse?? Or is this while pumping?? I have been only nursing the past 24 hours, not pumping....Please clue me in!!

 Bunny


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luvmyfirefly*
Boy, this is an emotional issue for me but I'm going to try to spell it out without writing a novel!

So at around 8 weeks of this I found out about Domperidone that can help with milk supply and I got a prescription for it from my ob/gyn and ordered it on the internet. It helped A LOT. By around 12 weeks Priya didn't have to get formula anymore. She was getting bottles but it was all milk I pumped. We still had stops and starts with her weight gains, but that could have been due to a kidney reflux problem that we later discovered she had.

But I am so proud we accomplished this, sometimes without much support. And I'm so glad I stuck it out until we got to the easy, wonderful part! If I'd stopped in the troublesome part I would have had a bad feeling about it always - not to mention the guilt!

Sometimes stubbornness is its own reward!

Jennie and Priya (8/5/03)

Wow, I am IMPRESSED by your perseverance!! Congratulations on that! I hope your little angel is doing much better now.

So is it necessary to pump after nursing like you did? I would get probably half an ounce if I did that, between both breasts. Should I be doing that?

How much did your supply increase after Domperidone? I have been on it for one week now, and have noticed only a very slight increase. For example, I get two ounces if I pump in mid-day instead of nursing. I am not getting that much to feed her. Please let me know how much Dom increased your supply...from what amount to what amount? And it took 8 WEEKS to happen?? Thx. Bunny


----------



## Panserbjorne

I did dom at 180, fenugreek and blessed thistle. They serve different functions and if you keep up with them and see a real difference it is easier weaning off the dom eventually.


----------



## luvmyfirefly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunnykae*
So is it necessary to pump after nursing like you did? I would get probably half an ounce if I did that, between both breasts. Should I be doing that?

How much did your supply increase after Domperidone? I have been on it for one week now, and have noticed only a very slight increase. For example, I get two ounces if I pump in mid-day instead of nursing. I am not getting that much to feed her. Please let me know how much Dom increased your supply...from what amount to what amount? And it took 8 WEEKS to happen?? Thx. Bunny

No, it only took a few days for Domperidone to work. I just didn't get it til Priya was 8 weeks old. And if I remember correctly, I went from getting about 3/4 oz. per pumping (after nursing) to 2 oz. Sometimes less if she had nursed more.

And it wasn't until she was almost 4 months that her suck seemed strong enough to really do the job. At that point I was pumping at work to make her bottles for daycare and I almost always got enough. If not, they made up the difference with formula.

In fact when she was around 5 or so months I had so much in the freezer that I was looking into donating to a milk bank. But the lactation gods must have heard me, because I got the worst case of food poisoning in my life and it wiped out my supply. Then I started the domperidone again and it helped, but from then on she had to get more formula at daycare.

But the golden days were the later days of our nursing. When she was about 10 months old I stopped responding to my pump and so I just nursed when we were at home. It was so great! No pump and bottles to clean - no stress - just blissful togetherness! We co-slept so even the night nursing was no hassle. It's what I imagined nursing could be!

So hang on, and do the best you can and pat yourself on the back for whatever you're able to accomplish!

And yes, my Priya is wonderful! She'll be three in less than 3 months!! And this morning she came in with a Mother's Day card for me, saying "I have a yetter for you, Mommy! Happy Mother's Day!"


----------



## operamommy

Mom2sons, sounds like you're doing so well! 2 ounces is wonderful.







The only advice I have re: letdown on the pump is to visualize your milk flowing. Sometimes in the late evenings when ds wants to nurse to sleep but doesn't need the lact-aid and I sense trouble letting down I just close my eyes and picture the milk letting down. It helps every time.

We are *very* close to 60% mama milk and 40% formula. I'm on 90 of dom right now and I'm thinking about amping it up to 120. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Is that much ok to take without a dr. looking over my shoulder? Thanks!


----------



## bunnykae

Hi Firefaery,
Thanks for your reply!! Did you start out at 90, then ramp up to 180? So do you take 60 mg 3X per day? Or is it better to take more units per day, i.e., 30 mg 6X/day?

Did this jump-start increase you a lot? Like double?
Thx. Bunn


----------



## Panserbjorne

I think smaller doses more frequently are the key. I started at 120 and increased over the course of maybe a month. I was doing a ton of herbs as well.

I went from pumping 1/2 ounce per session to about four ounces at a session (of course it varied throughout the day-you always get more in the morning.) I sometimes got six ounces in the morning.


----------



## amm0406

With my first, I started out with a Medela PIS, then a hospital Lactina and still didn't get anything. In fact, I think I did better with hand expression than either.

This time around, should I just buy a Avent Isis? I've heard some moms who don't have success with the PIS can even get milk with the Isis.

I'm worried a bit about size... I'm a plus-sized mama. I think I wear like a 46D... do you think maybe the horns on the PIS were just too small and it woulda worked if I had the bigger ones? Or what's the best pump for a bigger mama?


----------



## Mom2sons

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
I think smaller doses more frequently are the key. I started at 120 and increased over the course of maybe a month. I was doing a ton of herbs as well.

I went from pumping 1/2 ounce per session to about four ounces at a session (of course it varied throughout the day-you always get more in the morning.) I sometimes got six ounces in the morning.

FIrefaery - how often do you take the dom? I am on Day 6 and have not noticed a significant increase yet during the day pumps. I went from 1.25 oz to 2.0 oz. I take 40 mgs - 3 times a day. 1 1/2 hours after I eat as recommended by BFAR. Should I space it out and how long before you noticed a difference?


----------



## Panserbjorne

I took it four times a day. I noticed a difference in under a month and by 6 weeks at 180 I was probably starting to see myself maxing out (hitting the high end in terms of what I was pumping.)

I don't think it's about how big your breasts are, it's more about nipple size. THe horns need to fit the nipple comfortably. It took me many times to find the right pump...good luck!


----------



## Gianna'sMom

All I have to say is THANK GOODNESS FOR DOMPERIDONE!

WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW


----------



## Panserbjorne

Great news!

And not to freak anyone out-just to let you know. I know someone who just had her shipment confiscated at the border (in the US.) I'll keep you posted. She reordered and we'll see what happens. Seems like it's late in the game for them to be cracking down


----------



## TurboClaudia

Lisa: I'm so glad that it's working for you and Gianna is getting her mama milk!

~claudia


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## Gianna'sMom

Thanks, Claudia. She is being fed 100% breastmilk at this point. The only thing is, I am still pumping it into bottles (or Lactaid) for her. I am now pumping MORE than she eats in a day so that means, technically, I have enough to breastfeed her 100% of the time, but she still hesitates at the breast 99% of the time. She will nurse first thing in the morning, and very rarely at bedtime if she is sleepy. I want her to nurse more often cause pumping takes up so much darn time. I don't know how to get her back since I've already tried all the "usual" methods. . . . . . . I'm thinking of starting to work on it again today (I haven't tried in a few weeks cause I knew my supply was low. Now that my supply is more than ample, I am hoping I have better luck.)

Thanks, as always, for listening to me. Seriously.

Lisa


----------



## MarcyC

I love reading success stories! Congratulations, Lisa!!

I'm waiting on more Dom right now. In the meantime I'm taking the Shatavari herb - it's honestly not working. After a lot of trial and error, I believe I don't respond to Shatavari or Fenugreek or other herbs. MM Tea and Oatmeal work a bit - but I respond best to 100-150 mg. of Domperidone.

Okay...so now she's not too enamoured with the sippy cup or a straw cup. She'll drink A LITTLE from an open cup. The thing is she's not taking in that many calories during the day. Eating lots of fruits and veggies, nursing some, but waking a lot at night. I've decided to use whole milk the SNS. The difference between "then and now" is that I'm going to fill her up first - let her eat as much or as little as she wants. Then offer 2-4 oz. of milk in the SNS as her beverage AFTER she eats rather than before, kwim? I'm hoping that will help with some of the nighttime issues and keep her at the breast a little more.

Until she's okay with a sippy cup, that's the way it'll have to be, I guess.

Well, I have a cranky baby today...gotta cut this short. Hope you all had a happy (and milky) Mother's Day!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
Great news!

And not to freak anyone out-just to let you know. I know someone who just had her shipment confiscated at the border (in the US.) I'll keep you posted. She reordered and we'll see what happens. Seems like it's late in the game for them to be cracking down









It's just a random, continuing thing







: If you are a globaldrug customer, ignore the letter, contact globaldrug and they will reship your order. It gets returned to the shipper when it gets "confiscated." :sigh:

Another reason to not let your stash run low if you plan on taking dom for a while.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
I don't know how to get her back since I've already tried all the "usual" methods. . . . . . . I'm thinking of starting to work on it again today (I haven't tried in a few weeks cause I knew my supply was low. Now that my supply is more than ample, I am hoping I have better luck.)

Thanks, as always, for listening to me. Seriously.

Lisa

Have you tried everything here? Some good ideas:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...to-breast.html


----------



## JenInMpls

What do you suppose customs is *doing* with all of that domperidone!? I mean, really!

Congrats on success to all of you experiencing it lately!!









j


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
What do you suppose customs is *doing* with all of that domperidone!? I mean, really!

Congrats on success to all of you experiencing it lately!!









j

So know we know the REAL reason behind the confiscation









Seriously, I think they ship it back to the orignal shipper. Revolving door


----------



## Panserbjorne

They do-it goes straight back. SHe did have to pay again...but maybe she'll be refunded once they receive it? I never had mine confiscated and I was on it for over a year. The post was just a reminder to not run low.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
I think smaller doses more frequently are the key. I started at 120 and increased over the course of maybe a month. I was doing a ton of herbs as well.

I went from pumping 1/2 ounce per session to about four ounces at a session (of course it varied throughout the day-you always get more in the morning.) I sometimes got six ounces in the morning.

Whoooa!! That's great. So you started at 120/day. How much did you increase to at the most? Although I know Dom is safe (per several MDs throughout the world) I am a little worried about ramping up too much. What did you max out at? And do you exercise on Dom? I'm wondering about the increased heart rate. Thanks!!


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
Thanks, Claudia. She is being fed 100% breastmilk at this point. The only thing is, I am still pumping it into bottles (or Lactaid) for her.

I want her to nurse more often cause pumping takes up so much darn time. I don't know how to get her back since I've already tried all the "usual" methods. . . . . . .
Thanks, as always, for listening to me. Seriously.

Lisa

Hey Lisa, I don't know if this will help, but I just got off the phone with my LC. She says the key to combining bottle feeds with breastfeeding is to make sure the baby latches way up at the bottle top, so that her mouth is WIDE open, fish-lips and all, so she mimics nursing on the areola.  Bunny


----------



## MarcyC

Just bumping this thread back up to the top. It looks like there are a few other mamas who need our support and I want them to be able to find this thread easily...


----------



## Gianna'sMom

I'm sorry to always be posting about ME ME ME, but I am hoping that my story can help someone else!

DD is nursing again! Full time! All it took was one day of her crying and hesitating at the breast (and me being patient and persistent) and finally she is back at it!

My only concern is that she is having much less waste. Is that normal? I mean, she is still wetting about 6 times a day, but they are not the sopping wet diapers that she usually has from the bottles . . . . . . Is it possible that she is taking in *_exactly_* what she needs and there is much less waste with breastfeeding? How much should an almost 5 month old be eating/wetting per day? Just curious . . . . .

Hope ya'll are doing well! I am so thankful that after 2+ LONG months of nursing problems we seem to be on a road to recovery! I really pray that this lasts! Prayer has been a big part of this for me and I do truly believe that God is helping!

Take Care,
Lisa


----------



## TurboClaudia

posted on the questions/suggestions thread about the subforum for low milk supply and sent cynthia mosher a pm about this post: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...52#post5145952

and lisa, watch the output diapers. that was our first confirmation that yes, our son was truly not getting enough milk. he was still having wet diapers, but not soaking wet ones, and then he went days without pooping because he wasn't getting enough and his body was utilizing every last bit it could. he was almost 5 months when we discovered his weight gain issues and my milk supply issues. so glad to hear that your patience and persistence is paying off. can you offer her the boob more often? also, do you know if your milk letdown happens quickly or does it take a little longer? (i could never feel a letdown, so if you don't know, i can relate.) if it takes a little longer, you can try massaging your breast before she eats to stimulate the letdown sooner.

~claudia


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
I'm sorry to always be posting about ME ME ME, but I am hoping that my story can help someone else!

DD is nursing again! Full time! All it took was one day of her crying and hesitating at the breast (and me being patient and persistent) and finally she is back at it!










Yeah!

Quote:


My only concern is that she is having much less waste. Is that normal? I mean, she is still wetting about 6 times a day, but they are not the sopping wet diapers that she usually has from the bottles . . . . . . Is it possible that she is taking in *_exactly_* what she needs and there is much less waste with breastfeeding? How much should an almost 5 month old be eating/wetting per day? Just curious . . . . .

Hope ya'll are doing well! I am so thankful that after 2+ LONG months of nursing problems we seem to be on a road to recovery! I really pray that this lasts! Prayer has been a big part of this for me and I do truly believe that God is helping!

Take Care,
Lisa
Check out kelly mom for info on older babies' weight gain. Did you have access to frequent weighing at your ped's office or some other consistent place? I've heard LLL meeting sometimes have very accurate baby scales.
It would be nice if you could weigh every week:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/enoughmilk-older.html


----------



## leahida

hey Lisa - congrats - it's so refreshing to hear a success story!! you GO, mama







I'd second the advice to rent a scale, if you can. DS is 5.5 months and I just returned it today - no more stressing about weight - least for now.

Also wanted to post a link to MOBI's new website - a GREAT resource.

http://www.mobimotherhood.org/


----------



## Mom2sons

Okay - so it around 4:30 in the a.m. and I have been on Domperidone for 8 days now. Ordered it from Globaldrug.tv.

Not seeing much of an increase in production. Actually the reason i am wrting is that I have seen a drop in my production overnight tonite. For the past couple of nights my breasts have been huge after waiting for 4-5 hours. I am pumping at least 6 times before I go to bed and DS usually wakest at least once a night whereby we would have a good nursing section.

Am I doing something wrong with the Dom - why is it not working really well. I am taking around 90-100 mgs. per day an 1 1/2 after I eat (s o 3 times a day.) Could anything else be wrong with me?

The only other thing I am thinking that could be effecting supply is the fact that I have been on jury duty (Ohio does not excuse you for BF - unbelievable!!!!) and have not been able to pump for 4-5 hours at least once a day. I was trying to ensure I pumped every three hours during the day before.

Ready to cry. Someone - please help. My doctor (also Friend) knows I am doing this and said to wait to give the Dom time but having seen others post to these threads, you would think I would have seen an increase by now. Could I have gotten a bad batch of Dom????


----------



## GailK

Hey, it took 3 weeks and a move from 80 mg to 140 mg before I started seeing a difference.I upped the dosage after reading here- I kept asking my LC if the dosage should be determined by size or whatever and she was happy w/me staying at 80- I moved it up by myself! Think about doseage, weight, and time. GL


----------



## Mom2sons

Thanks Gailk,

I think I will try 120 mgs. although I am a bit nervous on the heart effects. I guess you can have some palpitations. Does anyone work out while on Dom? I am going to check Jack Neuman's (spelling ?) and see what he recommends.


----------



## TurboClaudia

Mom2Sons: I never saw an increase in my supply while taking dom (i started out taking 120mg a day and increased it to 180mg a day after 3 weeks of no change and still no change). it works for many women, but not for some.









~claudia


----------



## redebeth

Mom2sons - someone needs to change that law. I don't like living in California, but then I hear things like that and it makes me think twice.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2sons*
Thanks Gailk,

I think I will try 120 mgs. although I am a bit nervous on the heart effects. I guess you can have some palpitations. Does anyone work out while on Dom? I am going to check Jack Neuman's (spelling ?) and see what he recommends.

Hey Mom2sons,
Please let me know what medical evidence (quotes from MDs, not layman's stuff) is on the Web regarding exercise and Dom. I'll google it too.

I'd like to increase it, but am leary due to the IV deaths on Dom. What's this about heart palpitations? Have you experienced any? What exercise do you do, and to what level? I am a competitive swimmer, so I would be upping my heart rate pretty high. So far, I am fine on 90 mg/day, but I have not gone back to exercise yet due to my recent "C' section.
 Bunny


----------



## JenInMpls

Domperidone can cause a disruption in certain rhythms of the heart. It takes a very high IV dosage, though, and the amount that women take to increase lactation is far less than the IV dose.

kellymom.com has all of Dr Newman's stuff on it - if you write to him he will respond but he will probably send all of those articles as attachments.

I hope you get a good response from him; when I wrote to him he just said that "true hypoplasia is rare, if it really exists" and that if I took herbs, used breast compression and nursed 24/7 baby's weight and my milk supply should "take off". Thanks for not actually reading what I told you, bub







:

Anyway, good luck







jen


----------



## shmoo

Quote:

The only other thing I am thinking that could be effecting supply is the fact that I have been on jury duty (Ohio does not excuse you for BF - unbelievable!!!!) and have not been able to pump for 4-5 hours at least once a day. I was trying to ensure I pumped every three hours during the day before.
I know this probably comes far too late to do you any good, but where in Ohio? Yes -- Ohio does not have a statute that automatically grants nursing mothers exemptions from jury duty, but several courts in Ohio will excuse parents who are repsonsible for their child(ren)'s care or otherwise demonstrate that serving jury duty is not in their child(ren)'s best interests.

For example, the franklin county court of appeals would likely have granted you an excuse from JD.

http://www.fccourts.org/gen/

Posting this just in case someone else runs into the same situation! Ask to be excused -- explain that you would either have to bring your baby with you to court each day, or be excused every two hours to pump.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
Domperidone can cause a disruption in certain rhythms of the heart. It takes a very high IV dosage, though, and the amount that women take to increase lactation is far less than the IV dose.

kellymom.com has all of Dr Newman's stuff on it - if you write to him he will respond but he will probably send all of those articles as attachments.

I hope you get a good response from him; when I wrote to him he just said that "true hypoplasia is rare, if it really exists" and that if I took herbs, used breast compression and nursed 24/7 baby's weight and my milk supply should "take off". Thanks for not actually reading what I told you, bub







:

Anyway, good luck







jen

Thanks for your response! I went ahead a googled Dom and "heart," and found some medical abstracts among other things. After reading them, I decided not to do Dom AND exercise simultaneously. For those of you amateur athletes , here's the info.

http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2005/05/11/59679.html

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...ll/102/16/1883

BTW, did anyone have tingling after taking Dom? I found several posts by folks who had tingling (I imagine in the extremities) a year after taking Dom.
 Bunny


----------



## JenInMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunnykae*
BTW, did anyone have tingling after taking Dom?

Only in my breasts!







xo j


----------



## MarcyC

I had NO side effects on dom. No heart problems, no tingling (except my breasts, like Jen)...nothing!

DH is pushing for another baby so I'm on the fence about taking my dom now. DD is 13 months and could transition to a sippy cup. She still nurses with the SNS right now and we're so accustomed to it, I don't want to "waste" dom so I might save my latest shipment for baby #4 and begin taking 100 mg. per day in the hospital!

I've got some decisions to make. I'll continue to drink my teas and eat oatmeal and see if we can just keep a nursing relationship going with that, kwim?


----------



## Greensleeves

Marcy---
I started taking dom and more milk special blend on day one this last time too--I really do think it made a big difference. It was still a lot of work to get the supply established but we are still going strong here at 6.5 months!


----------



## TurboClaudia

btw, mamas, i got a pm back from Cynthia saying she has been really busy handling server problems but has a mtg scheduled this weekend to discuss details and guidelines for the subforum. i hope to be able to share the MOBI guidelines with her and am just waiting to hear back from them if it's okay to share those. don't know what the eta on the subforum is, but it's getting closer to reality! yay!

~claudia


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
don't know what the eta on the subforum is, but it's getting closer to reality! yay!

~claudia









Thanks for the update


----------



## MarcyC

Claudia,
Do you think it'll be a MOBI forum? There was a parenting board I visited YEARS ago. I think it was parenting, but honestly it could have been something else. But I'm pretty sure it was parenting. Anyhow, sorry to ramble, but this board, "rented" board space to a counselor/expert person of some sort (I think it was a mental health person) and that person had a sub-forum on this parenting board, but to get to the subforum you had to have a special password. Seems like the same could be done for MOBI moms. There could even be a link to mothering.com forums on the new MOBI site...

www.mobimotherhood.org

A lot of mobi moms are on mothering. A lot of mothering low-supply moms are on MOBI.

Sounds like a match made in heaven!


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Marcy thanks for the link to the mobi board. I haven't been keeping up with the email list, I am getting to really dislike large email lists







.


----------



## MarcyC

The MOBI site doesn't have it's own message boards. I've heard that message board software is super expensive and takes a lot of *something* to run...I don't know web site technology, but I've heard message boards are difficult.

SO...MOBI is still using the yahoo group thing, which I'm not too fond of. It's kinda confusing to me.


----------



## Shell_Ell

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2sons*
Okay - so it around 4:30 in the a.m. and I have been on Domperidone for 8 days now. Ordered it from Globaldrug.tv.

Not seeing much of an increase in production. Actually the reason i am wrting is that I have seen a drop in my production overnight tonite. For the past couple of nights my breasts have been huge after waiting for 4-5 hours. I am pumping at least 6 times before I go to bed and DS usually wakest at least once a night whereby we would have a good nursing section.

Am I doing something wrong with the Dom - why is it not working really well. I am taking around 90-100 mgs. per day an 1 1/2 after I eat (s o 3 times a day.) Could anything else be wrong with me?

The only other thing I am thinking that could be effecting supply is the fact that I have been on jury duty (Ohio does not excuse you for BF - unbelievable!!!!) and have not been able to pump for 4-5 hours at least once a day. I was trying to ensure I pumped every three hours during the day before.

Ready to cry. Someone - please help. My doctor (also Friend) knows I am doing this and said to wait to give the Dom time but having seen others post to these threads, you would think I would have seen an increase by now. Could I have gotten a bad batch of Dom????

It took a good 4 weeks for me before I saw a big jump. It could be that it just hasn't fully reached it's potential. I do agree that it works for some women and not for others. I hope you start to see a change soon.


----------



## scubamom

I am a big time lurker on this thread, and i wanted to thank you for the link to the mobi site as i found it so so useful as it helped clarify some things for me, and i just wanted to ask where is best to get goats rue from, as from what i was reading it may help me.
thanks
heather

i should really post my story, but i am hanging in here with my severe low supply and i find when i try and write about it i get more upset, and i am best to just keep chugging along doing what im doing to keep some form of BF realtionship and trying not to dwell on it.
But i love reading this thread as even though i have had this supply issue for years now as started with ds#1 i still learn new things from you all. So thank you


----------



## MarcyC

nak.. hi heather. try motherlove for goat's rue. you can also do a 'froogle' search for it. sorry so short /nak


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2sons*
Okay - so it around 4:30 in the a.m. and I have been on Domperidone for 8 days now. Ordered it from Globaldrug.tv.

Not seeing much of an increase in production. Actually the reason i am wrting is that I have seen a drop in my production overnight tonite. For the past couple of nights my breasts have been huge after waiting for 4-5 hours. I am pumping at least 6 times before I go to bed and DS usually wakest at least once a night whereby we would have a good nursing section.

Am I doing something wrong with the Dom - why is it not working really well. I am taking around 90-100 mgs. per day


Hi Michelle,
How much did you get after pumping? Was it in the middle of the day? Or morning?

Hang in there...I've been on Dom only two weeks, but I noticed a change this second week. Not a lot, but I just pumped double in midday what I pumped last week...I just got 2 ounces in fifteen minutes on the pump!! The week before, it was one ounce.

Maybe it varies among individuals as to when Dom kicks in. Let's hope it kicks in the 3rd or 4th week!!! Anyone else have it kick in late??  Bunny


----------



## Rowan Tree

I posted this yesterday on the breastfeeding forum, but it was suggested to me to post it here:

Just came from seeing my midwife and she perscribed Reglan to help boost my milk supply (major drops in supply from AF and hormonal issues, then problems caused by thrush ). After trying everything else, it seems to be the only option I have left. I'm just not ready to give up breastfeeding--DS is just 8.5 months old! Did Reglan help any of you?

I would appreciate any and all help/advice/wisdom. I'm truely beginning to grieve the loss of the breastfeeding relationship I had with my son







. He used to be such a good nurser and now I feel I have failed him because of my damn hormones and because I didn't catch the thrush sooner.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meggie*
I posted this yesterday on the breastfeeding forum, but it was suggested to me to post it here:

Just came from seeing my midwife and she perscribed Reglan to help boost my milk supply (major drops in supply from AF and hormonal issues, then problems caused by thrush ). After trying everything else, it seems to be the only option I have left. I'm just not ready to give up breastfeeding--DS is just 8.5 months old! Did Reglan help any of you?

I would appreciate any and all help/advice/wisdom. I'm truely beginning to grieve the loss of the breastfeeding relationship I had with my son







. He used to be such a good nurser and now I feel I have failed him because of my damn hormones and because I didn't catch the thrush sooner.

Hi,
Sorry about your milk supply...but you are in the right place because we all have issues (I'm LMS too)...thank goodness you have a midwife who will prescribe meds for you!! Have you mentioned Domperidone to her? I've read that side effects of Reglan are not uncommon...and include things like severe depression. If you go to Kellymom.com, you can read more about Rx meds. The site says:

"Reglan has often been used in the U.S.. One major side-effect of Reglan is severe depression; it is contraindicated in moms with a history of depression, and all moms who take this should keep an eye out for signs of depression. One of my sources advises all adoptive mothers to stay away from Reglan, since it has caused serious depression/anxiety in moms regardless of previous history. This depression side effect usually develops over 3-4 weeks, and goes away if mom discontinues the Reglan. Other side effects include diarrhea, sedation, gastric upset, nausea, seizures and extrapyramidal effects (twitching, etc.) "

My LC refused to prescribe Reglan when I asked for it, as she mentioned that it has too many side effects. Maybe you'll be fine, but just watch for any of these symptoms. Hopefully, she'll prescribe Dom, which can be compounded at a pharmacy. Your midwife sounds pretty open-minded, so maybe she'll try Dom.
HTH
 Bunny


----------



## redebeth

what a great link!


----------



## MarcyC

I can't tolerate Reglan. It makes me weepy, sick, flu-like, feeling "drugged" and out of it. Ick!

I've had NO side effects on Dom.


----------



## MarcyC

Hey girls! I've never had much success with my PIS. I even bought an Avent, but no luck with that either. I'm looking for a Whisper Wear. Let me know if you have one you'd like to sell. I don't have a lot of extra $ right now. I'd even trade it for an Avent.


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
Hey girls! I've never had much success with my PIS. I even bought an Avent, but no luck with that either. I'm looking for a Whisper Wear. Let me know if you have one you'd like to sell. I don't have a lot of extra $ right now. I'd even trade it for an Avent.

I've heard Whisper Wear don't have very strong suction, and are only good for people with a strong supply







If I were a millionaire I would get one of the Avent IQ (double or single) Right now I am using a Ameda Purely Yours, which works OK.


----------



## MarcyC

Hmmm...good to know before I spend any more $! Thanks!

What about the whittlestone? Has anyone tried that?


----------



## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2sons*
Okay - so it around 4:30 in the a.m. and I have been on
The only other thing I am thinking that could be effecting supply is the fact that I have been on jury duty (Ohio does not excuse you for BF - unbelievable!!!!)

That ticks me off. I'd be tempted to pump in the courtroom!


----------



## henhao

I'm glad to hear things are going better for you, Lisa. I'm also happy to hear that we're getting closer to a board!

My BFing is still up and down. In a nutshell, it's fine when I'm with baby and it's bad when I pump.

As a result, I've restructured my life around being with the baby as much as possible even though I WOHM/WAHM FT. DH is a teacher and has the summer off. He does primary care for her 2 days a week, and I work from home. He brings her to me to nurse. YAY!! Then I go into the office 2-3 days per week and DD is with a sitter, who I consider a 4th grandmother or 3rd parent.














I have every other Friday off and that is "family" day. So I go into the office 2 days one week and 3 days the other week. It's a little confusing and makes for a much improved nursing relationship!!

On one of the Fridays I work, I brought DD to work. It was exhausting for me AND it meant I didn't have to pump. DD did well playing with toys and napping in the am. The pm was a little harder as she didn't nap well then.

If I can get to a year, I'll be really happy. I plan to nurse into toddlerhood. For now, I'm mostly focussed on getting to a year and then will go from there.

If I could go back in time, I'd be a lot less stressed out about this motherhood business. I see how so many of my worries resolved themselves (well with a lot of work LOL) and I am going to remember that for the future.

Thanks for all of your support.

Y'all ROCK!


----------



## MarcyC

bumping us back up to the top...another mama needs us! She's got a thread asking for SNS help. Yet another reason we need our own sub-forum!


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Bump again . . . .. we were on page 2 again.

Just wanted to pop in to say hello to everyone. DD and I have been nursing full time for almost 2 weeks thanks to Dom. I am still dumfounded that after such a long time of problems we're actually back to a good place. At first, I thought maybe she wasn't getting enough cause she nurses so quickly and there was a day there where she didn't have a BM but things are fine now and she is having great output and we are looking good!

For anyone who is concerned about how long it takes for Dom to kick in, please be patient. I didn't see any increase until day 8. And even then, it was only a little. I finally saw _SUBSTANTIAL_ increase on day 10 or 11 . . . . . then, it keeps increasing each week until week 3 or so. If you wait long enough, you will notice a long, steady, slow increase, but eventually you will get there! I have gotten to the point where I become engorged and hurting in the morning, I spray when DD is nursing and becomes detached, I see milk in the corners of her mouth all the time, and I actually feel letdown. I had never experienced any of those things prior to Dom in the 4 months that I had nursed my baby. You will be truly amazed at the difference!

Praying for milky days for all!
Lisa


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gianna'sMom*
things are fine now and she is having great output and we are looking good!

Praying for milky days for all!
Lisa









WooHoo!


----------



## Mom2sons

Everyone - thanks so much for encouraging me to hang in there. It has been 2 weeks with the Dom and I have noticed a slight albeit not a huge increase in the milk production.

I am pumping at least 2 ounces every 3 hours and sometimes get 3 ounces. That is the most I ever got. I am hoping one day that I will have the success that Gianna's mom got. Way to go girl!!!!

Gianna's Mom - I am going to put my baby on a SNS (seeing a LC soon.) Looks like you had great sucess. My baby used to nurse at nite but lately is not doing so good. I think it the flow of the milk. I think your situation is different as I am relactating but I am still hopeful.

All others - jury duty is over - thank god. I was tempted to whip out the pump in the middle of the court room just to see the look on the judge's face. Don't mess with a relactating mama!!!


----------



## Kontessa

So I have my own little thread going on about my relactating journey. Thinking about making it a blog as I can not find many blogs about this and I think one would help!

I thought I would drop by here as soon I will have a supply to call low even. LOL

I am worried about going to a Dr and asking for medication when I have a 6 month old son, stopped nursing a month ago, and baby seems to be ok on formula. What if he says no? I am not sure I am ready for that battle. It is already in my records that I do not tend to accept medication and that we do not vax our kids. Dr.s tend to just write me off and send me on my way with no help or bad help!

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa*
I am worried about going to a Dr and asking for medication when I have a 6 month old son, stopped nursing a month ago, and baby seems to be ok on formula. What if he says no? I am not sure I am ready for that battle. It is already in my records that I do not tend to accept medication and that we do not vax our kids. Dr.s tend to just write me off and send me on my way with no help or bad help!

Blessings,
Kimmy

You can get domperidone without a prescription:
http://www.globaldrug.tv/category.asp?CtgID=1003

I've been following your blog. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## bunnykae

Right now I am BF'ing, SNS'ing and syringe-feeding. I BF exclusively in the a.m., then switch to SNS in the p.m. till midnight with some BF in between. I don't have enough milk to just BF.

Baby gets formula and syringe from midnight to 6 a.m.

Now baby is getting really VERY PO'd at the syringe at night, and fights. She is only 6 weeks old, but has an appetite.

Big Question: Is it OK now to switch to bottle and BF at this age? I don't want to re-introduce nipple confusion, which we had when I was trying to BF and bottle feed when I was sick the first 2 weeks.
Thanks.  Bunny


----------



## MaryJaneLouise

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunnykae*
Big Question: Is it OK now to switch to bottle and BF at this age? I don't want to re-introduce nipple confusion, which we had when I was trying to BF and bottle feed when I was sick the first 2 weeks.
Thanks.  Bunny

Well -- IMHO, you never know how they are going to react (re: nipple confusion). Some will always be OK -- others will always be confused. Others will be OK after a certain point, which is ?? who knows when.

If you do use a bottle, check out these instructions for bottle feeding the bf baby:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/a...e-feeding.html
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/bottle-feeding.html

Bye everyone, I'm gone for a week to a family reunion!


----------



## Gianna'sMom

Bunny,

I just want to say that my DD is one of those who seems to NEVER get past preferring a bottle after even only having ONE every few weeks. Once she has one, she fights the breast fervently for a day after. Then I BF or SNS for weeks and she is ok. If she has a bottle again after a few weeks of submitting to breast, we are back at square 1 again where she is fighting the breast.

Even my Dr. said it is rare, but she is one of "those"! Not to scare you out of a bottle, just to let you know that these "types" of babies exist! I have one of them!

You are doing such a good job, especially at only 6 weeks! I'm impressed at how much you know/how many methods you have integrated in such a short amount of time. Good job, mama!

Lisa


----------



## jassyp101

Hi Mamas,

I'm dealing with low breast milk supply and my baby is allergic to all formulas.







Where can I get domperidone in Portland, OR and who can write this prescription for me?? My OB/GYN's office won't write prescriptions for it, only for Reglan...and I don't want to use Reglan. Please let me know...PM me please.

I've tried herbs - Western and Chinese and haven't had much luck.

THANKS!


----------



## TurboClaudia

There's a pharmacy in Forest Grove that was making dom last year... I think it's called The Medicine Shoppe...??? not sure... Our pediatrician actually gave me a prescription for it so I didn't even need to see an MD. It's not on the formulary for Nurse Practitioners or Nurse Midwives or Naturopath, so you either need a scrip or to order it from somewhere lik globaldrug.tv.

I think also Beaverton Pharmacy was making it as of last year, but since then I have heard a rumor that were served a cease and desist order from the FDA to stop making it...??? Rumor, though...

Maybe also try the holistic pharmacy that is on W Burnside by the Zupan's across from NW 21st... don't remember what it's called... Pharmaca or something like that???

sending you milky vibes, mama...

~claudia


----------



## jassyp101

Hi Mama's,

What website do you use to order dom?? I typed in www.globaldrug.tv.com and I get a pop up window asking for a username and password.

Please let me know the website...I need milk for my baby.

THANKS!


----------



## leahida

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jassyp101*
Hi Mama's,

What website do you use to order dom?? I typed in www.globaldrug.tv.com and I get a pop up window asking for a username and password.

Please let me know the website...I need milk for my baby.

THANKS!

It's without the "com"

http://www.globaldrug.tv/

Good luck, Mama!


----------



## JenInMpls

Why not SNS at night instead of syringe?

just curious.








j


----------



## TurboClaudia

bunny: i was also wondering why not the sns during the night too?

~c


----------



## Kontessa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise*
You can get domperidone without a prescription:
http://www.globaldrug.tv/category.asp?CtgID=1003

I've been following your blog. Thanks for sharing!










Is this legal in the states?


----------



## Panserbjorne

dom is not approved for off label use in the us...in other words as a galactagogue. It was only recently that this happened. The formula companies lobbied for it. I got it very legally as prescribed by my physician when I started, but a few months in I had to go outside of the US. One more reason to hate formula companies. They were more concerned with profit than the health of babes.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenInMpls*
Why not SNS at night instead of syringe?

just curious.








j

Hi Jen and Claudia,
In the middle of the night, she has two feedings. Two SNS's would take about 3 hours, so I would be soooo trashed- with like two hour's sleep. With the syringe, she only takes about one hour for both feedings, so I get my 5 hours of sleep in for the night. No sleep for me during the day.

Any other suggestions would be very much appreciated!! What would you do in order to supplement mid-nite?

How long do your babies go with SNS'ing...mine goes no more than 3 hours, usually less.
 Bunny


----------



## operamommy

Bunny, my babe was an extremely slooooow feeder at first. Even a bottle would take him sometimes 45 minutes to finish. Have you tried hanging the SNS a bit higher? I heard through an LC even about a woman who hung hers on an IV stand - the babe just needed a lot of extra help to get the milk through. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it for an idea. I find that when I use the SNS (I generally use the Lact-Aid) that I need to have it much higher up on my chest than what the pictures show.

Mom2sons, YES - give the SNS a try! The lact-aid was what got my babe back on the breast. Great to hear how much you're able to pump now! Isn't it exciting?

Gianna'sMom, congrats!!!


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *operamommy*
Bunny, my babe was an extremely slooooow feeder at first. Even a bottle would take him sometimes 45 minutes to finish. Have you tried hanging the SNS a bit higher? I heard through an LC even about a woman who hung hers on an IV stand - the babe just needed a lot of extra help to get the milk through. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it for an idea. I find that when I use the SNS (I generally use the Lact-Aid) that I need to have it much higher up on my chest than what the pictures show.

Gianna'sMom, congrats!!!

What a brilliant idea!! I'll hang it higher....I'll have to rig it to maybe the back of the chair, cause it's up as high as it'll go on my neck. Baby girl usually finishes bottles quicker than the SNS. She just lolls around at the breast on SNS, taking lots of breaks.  Bunny


----------



## MarcyC

Bunny - another thing you can try is to open up the other tube on the SNS (I'm assuming you're using the full-sized SNS with two tubes and not the "starter" SNS). I usually put one tube at my breast/nipple and then take a piece of tape and have the 2nd tube pointed up toward my face, kwim...

So I release one tube as she's suckling, and then I open up the 2nd tube so the flow is easier for her. I'm also using the largest sized tubing.

I think if I have to do this over again, I'll start with the smallest size tubing and NOT open up the other side at first and get the suck training down in the first few weeks so hopefully I won't have to go through a year of this!

I think I picked up the "open the other side" trick either on here or on MOBI. I can't remember which.


----------



## jenny-g

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunnykae*
Hi Jen and Claudia,
In the middle of the night, she has two feedings. Two SNS's would take about 3 hours, so I would be soooo trashed- with like two hour's sleep. With the syringe, she only takes about one hour for both feedings, so I get my 5 hours of sleep in for the night. No sleep for me during the day.

Any other suggestions would be very much appreciated!! What would you do in order to supplement mid-nite?

How long do your babies go with SNS'ing...mine goes no more than 3 hours, usually less.
 Bunny

Try bottles! We did- she actually was unable to get enough food via syringe before she would fall asleep, and wasn't gaining- and our breastfeeding got BETTER with them, not worse! She got bigger, gained weight, and that alone made her a better eater. We like the dr. brown's with the slow nipples, but also use the platex drop-in's system too. IN THE SAME FEEDING, I"ll breastfeed her, suppliment with previously pumped milk in one bottle, and formula to finish up in another, all given by me, no problems. I think the TERROR of nipple confusion isn't warranted- some kids have a problem, some don't. I would totally try it if I were you. We are very glad we did. I also think the silicone nipples available now are much healthier than the old latex nipples, and bottles like the dr. browns and platex drop ins prevent them from forming a vacuum/getting fluid in the ears much better than older bottles. -j


----------



## Kontessa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
dom is not approved for off label use in the us...in other words as a galactagogue. It was only recently that this happened. The formula companies lobbied for it. I got it very legally as prescribed by my physician when I started, but a few months in I had to go outside of the US. One more reason to hate formula companies. They were more concerned with profit than the health of babes.

So it is no longer legal?

And yes, that is horrible that our government is moved not by the power of the people but by the money of a few. A few with no interest in health, but rather more money!


----------



## MarcyC

Somewhere...I can't remember where or when...there was some kind of petition you could sign to try to get dom re-approved. Or maybe it was a form letter you could download to send to your local politicians. I'll have to do a search for that.


----------



## Panserbjorne

There was a cease and desist order to all compounding pharmacies. It is not legal for them to compound it though some who buck the system may still do it becasue it's such crap. It isn't legal though and people have had it confiscated at the border (no worries though, you do just reorder.)


----------



## Mom2sons

Just to weigh in on the debate over legality. I thought I read somewhere that ordering prescription medication over the internet is not illegal as long as you use it for private use. However, since this medicine is not FDA approved, it may be illegal.

I was nervous to order it but I don't think any agents are going to come knocking at my door (hopefully not.) It can get confiscated at the border however. I am hoping my second shipment does not.

Just an update on my usage. I actually got a 4 oz. pump today after 5 hours. So excited. So giving milky best wishes to all other mommas.


----------



## Panserbjorne

I would not ever hesitate to order it over this issue-ever. Just be aware that it is one of those things that is a slippery slope in general. My IBCLC for instance can't technically recommend it anymore-she gives out #2 of mamas who have used it successfully and lets them do the talking!

I don't believe that there are any legal ramifications for ordering it, just the danger that you could have it confiscated at the border and not receive it in a timely fashion.


----------



## kallieb

I have posted a couple of questions on the breastfeeding board before, but never officially introduced myself as a low-supply mama, but I could use the support, so I've decided to admit (to myself) that I may never be able to not supplement.

Ds is 3 months old, and we've had problems from the beginning. I'm not sure of the cause of my low-supply but here's my story and the possible culprits:

I had a far from natural birthing experience. I had precipitous labor (about 3 hrs from start to finish) and the contractions were so intense that I ended up getting an epidural. Well, between the epidural and naturally low blood pressure, my bp just bottomed out. Then I had a contraction that wouldn't stop (I know it was at least 7 minutes). This, combined with the low bp, caused way too much stress on ds and his heart rate dropped. I ended up getting brethene (sp?) to stop the contractions, TONS of IV fluids, and epinephrine (sp?). I managed to avoid a c-section, though.

In spite of all this, ds latched pretty well initially and we bf right after he was born. He was 6 lbs. 11 oz. (which I think was inflated from all the fluids; I know I looked like a balloon!). We were using a ped that didn't have privileges at the hospital where I delivered, so she wanted to see him 2 days after we got out (4 days total). My milk had just come in the day before his appt. He was having poopy diapers and wet diapers, but his weight had "dropped" to 6 lbs. I know now that the ped was not bf friendly, and she told me to start supplementing. As a sleep deprived, post partum emotional, first-time mom, I was a WRECK. I felt beyond guilty and so defeated and inadequate. (I am getting teary just writing about it, partly because I still struggle with these feelings.) Ds was a VERY sleepy baby and had a pretty weak suck, and I think that, combined with the supplementing and stress I was feeling, just wreaked havoc on establishing a good supply.

I've done fenugreek/blessed thistle, mother's milk tea, oatmeal, and dom. Right now we're down from 12 oz of formula a day to between 0-4 oz. a day. On the one hand, I'm soooo proud of how far we've come, but on the other, I still get so sad that I can't ebf. I read all these posts about how bad formula is and I just feel so guilty. I worry about if it's going to increase his chances for allergies (I have SEVERE allergies, and part of me wonders if years and years of antihistamines every day caused some of my supply problems; I haven't had any antihistamines since he's been born though). I've also been thinking I might have more of a problem of low storage capacity, so I have been not supplementing the past few days and just watching ds weight. He woke up every hour last night, though, so I'm back to thinking I do have some supply problems, hence the reason I finally decided to post here. Thanks to anyone who read this whole thing!


----------



## ColeysMama

Here we go again...

Dom was working great. DH and DS were out of town for a week, which gave me time to pump like mad and build up a nice freezer stash. Boobs were getting full in between pumpings, I was pumping at least 2 oz every time, life was good. They got back, I started nursing. DS went an entire WEEK with NO formula!! He also used up my entire stash - anywhere from 4 to 8 oz a day of ebm. No worries - I figured all that nursing had built up my supply enough to where I wouldn't need it after it was gone. Alas, that was only wishful thinking. He was fussy, and wanting to nurse constantly, but getting frustrated when he tried, for several days after the freezer milk was gone. I thought he was just being moody, maybe teething... then I realized, no, he's hungry. Got some formula last night. He's happy again.

I feel like a completely and total failure. I'm taking dom. I'm taking fenugreek. I'm nursing on demand, and only giving a bottle if my boobs are completely drained. I'm drinking water, eating oatmeal, everything.

I'm going to get more dom and increase from 90 to 120 a day. And start pumping after nursing. I don't know what else to do; I really think I might never get my milk back completely.

To be honest, I want to give up and just wean. I don't know if this is worth it. But I know I would regret it, so I keep going... and I am making myself miserable in the process.


----------



## bunnykae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kallieb*
:

I've done fenugreek/blessed thistle, mother's milk tea, oatmeal, and dom. Right now we're down from 12 oz of formula a day to between 0-4 oz. a day. On the one hand, I'm soooo proud of how far we've come, but on the other, I still get so sad that I can't ebf. I read all these posts about how bad formula is and I just feel so guilty. I worry about if it's going to increase his chances for allergies (I have SEVERE allergies, and part of me wonders if years and years of antihistamines every day caused some of my supply problems; I haven't had any antihistamines since he's been born though). I've also been thinking I might have more of a problem of low storage capacity, so I have been not supplementing the past few days and just watching ds weight. He woke up every hour last night, though, so I'm back to thinking I do have some supply problems, hence the reason I finally decided to post here. Thanks to anyone who read this whole thing!









Hi Kallieb,
I read your whole post!  I doubt that your antihistamine use affected your current supply, unless you were using the meds while BF'ing. So your ped also was not BF-friendly. Sounds like a common phenomenon, which I don't understand, as the benefits of BF'ing should be pushed by peds. It sounds like you have done remarkably well, having decreased supplements to 4 oz or less per day.

Can you share your protocol? I'd sure appreciate it. Did you BF exclusively at some feedings? Did you SNS? How did you gradually get to the 4 oz? I would love to know the specific details. I'm having a hard time decreasing right now. Thanks.  Bunny


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## MarcyC

Just wanted to post a quick hello to KallieB. I read your whole post. Coleysmama - read your whole post, too. Unfortunately I have a crying cranky baby right now so I don't have time to respond.

Just wanted to say...don't give up...even on your worst day. Things DO get better. Hang in there! big ((((HUGS))))


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## kallieb

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunnykae*
Hi Kallieb,
I read your whole post!  I doubt that your antihistamine use affected your current supply, unless you were using the meds while BF'ing. So your ped also was not BF-friendly. Sounds like a common phenomenon, which I don't understand, as the benefits of BF'ing should be pushed by peds. It sounds like you have done remarkably well, having decreased supplements to 4 oz or less per day.

Can you share your protocol? I'd sure appreciate it. Did you BF exclusively at some feedings? Did you SNS? How did you gradually get to the 4 oz? I would love to know the specific details. I'm having a hard time decreasing right now. Thanks.  Bunny

Sure...where do I begin? I've tried so much







When I first started supplementing we were doing 1 oz at every feeding after I nursed. Like I said, ds was a sleepy newborn, and we had to wake him every 2 hrs to nurse/eat, so he was getting 12 oz of formula a day. I'd pumped after every feeding, but only got like 1/4 oz total, but I did that faithfully (even during the night) until I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. I lasted about 2 weeks I think, and it just got to be too much; I was only getting like 45 min-1 hr of sleep at a time, and the lack of sleep wasn't helping things, so I started pumping just once or twice a night.

I started taking fenugreek and blessed thistle. I don't remember how much blessed thistle I was taking, but I took 4 fenugreek capsules 4 times a day. I also started eating a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast everyday, and I tried the mother's milk tea, but I was allergic to something in it, so I stopped that pretty quickly. Anyway, I started noticing some improvement, so what I started doing was letting ds nurse, then pumping and then giving him whatever I was able to pump, THEN giving the formula until he didn't want anymore. This meant that he got whatever he got when he nursed, plus about a half an oz from me pumping, and then he'd take about 1/2 oz of formula, so right away I dropped down to about 6 oz of formula a day. When I got my dom. I started taking 90 mg, I then I could pump about 4 oz total (before a feeding obviously). Ds started having green stools, though, and I stopped taking it. Anyway, ds went through a growth spurt around 2 months, and I started back on it, but bumped down to 60 mg, and the green stools came back. I don't think it means anything since he seemed perfectly fine and green stools can be normal, but I stopped just to be safe. I'm still taking the fenugreek and I pump after every day time feeding, plus anytime ds has been sleeping for a while, etc. (so I basically get emptied out at least every 2 hours). Now I offer ds formula only if he's nursed, I've pumped and given him that, and he's still hungry. Some days are better than others, but generally it ends up being about an extra 2-4 oz. We've had a couple of days where he didn't need any, and I'm hoping for more of those. I've also noticed that I'm one of those people whose milk production is VERY sensitive to my water intake. I have to drink about 64 oz of actual water (not juice or any old liquid) every day.

I don't know if that really helps or not. Thankfully, I don't really have a big eater. He's never wanted more than 3 oz at a time, so that helps. I still have hope that one day he could be off formula completely, but if I think about that too much I tend to get discouraged on days when he needs extra formula.

I can totally relate to that feeling of wanting to quit. It takes sooo much extra effort (I have a love/hate relationship with my pump







), but I just try to remember how beneficial any bm is to him. I have really bad allergies, eczema, and asthma (in spite of the fact that I was ebf for a year) so I want to do everything I can to minimize his susceptibility to those problems. My biggest challenge has been that I tend to let bf define what it means to be a mother, and I try to remind myself that I provide my ds with more than just milk, kwim? It's so hard, but don't quit! You doing a wonderful thing for your dc, and if nothing else you'll be able to look back proudly and know you did everything in your power to give your dc the absolute best.

ETA: I forgot to address your questions about the SNS. We just use bottles when we supplement. I didn't know about SNS until we'd already started supplementing. Ds did get a bottle preference though, so had I known about them I might have tried it. He actually still gets bottle preference when we have days where he's getting a lot of pumped milk/formula, and the next day or two, I have to undo it. We've had our fair share of mini nursing strikes, and it takes a total standoff with him until he gets sleepy and then he'll usually nurse laying down.


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## MarcyC

kallieb - I can relate to where you are. I've been there. Nurse, pump, bottle...and 2 hours later do it all over again. And I have two older children that I homeschool. That routine led to sheer exhaustion. Things got MUCH MUCH better once we went complete bottle and pump free. We exclusively SNS. She gets her supplement while we nurse, plus I get the stimulation directly from her and don't need to pump. Much easier! I highly recommend getting rid of the bottles and going to the SNS. Try different sizes of tubing. In our case we had to use the largest size tubing. I keep a 2 cup-container of formula already made in the frig and just fill up the SNS whenever it's time to nurse. Well, now that she's older I'm using regular soy milk in the SNS, but when she was on formula that's what I did.

Just my two cents...hope that helps.


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## JillyD

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I highly recommend getting rid of the bottles and going to the SNS.

ditto
we have forgone the pumping & bottles too...and it is so much easier on both of us. Using the SNS took a bit of getting used to - especially in public - but, once you get it down, it's pretty easy.

coleysmama - our babies have the same bday. I hear ya on the wanting to quit. But, you are right, in the long run, we would probably regret it. I wonder if cole recently went through a growth spurt or something. rowan did and now she needs more supplement all the time. it is frustrating when you think you are doing so well and then all of a sudden they need more supplement. ugh. anyway, we are doing good things for our babies!! just remember that.

good luck to both of you.

jill


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## Mom2sons

Okay so - I went to visit the LC today and got the SNS. DS and I tried it and he got about 2.5 oz. until he was pretty much "no way."

Anyways, I know as a relactating Momma - I have come so far but this was a bit of a discouragement. On Friday, my milk supply was awesome and now it is back down to 2 oz. per pump DS did not do so hot on the SNS. I wonder if he is just too old at 4.5 mos.?

The LC recommended two weeks of Reglan just to give my prolactin a boost. I don't know... I just needed to vent and get some support. The LC says that I should be proud of myself - but why am I teary eyed?


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## JenInMpls

2.5 oz of formula or ebm PLUS whatever milk he drew from you - for a 4.5 month old that might just be enough to sate him?

You're crying because it's frustrating and hard and this should just be something natural, like breathing, and it's not, and it's not fair, but here we are.







jen


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## henhao

Coley, If it helps to know, I wanted to give up about 55 times. I didn't and am happy I didn't! Hugs to you!

It's taken a lot of work and now my babe is 100% bf'd (for this week anyway). My DH is able to be home in the summer and brings her to me to nurse for the 2 days a week I work at home. When I'm apart from DD and have to pump, I can't keep up so she gets formula. The good news this week is that I have a lot time to pump extra because DD will be with me in person more than usual, so I'll be taking advantage of nap time!









That is our current story. I am surprised that it's an always changing adventure. I'm grateful to have the times that I *can* bf her and am also grateful for formula -- believe it or not!! -- because it helped to keep her alive when my body wasn't up to making all the milk on its own.


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## TurboClaudia

we started using a lact-aid when our son was 4.5 months old and continued using it until he was about 9.5 months old, when he started eating solids like a fiend and still nursed a good amount. your little one is not too old, but you may have to be sneaky about where you position it on your breast and when you use it. (we always nursed bare breast on the first side with breast compression, and then added the lact-aid to the second side with breast compression.)

sending milky vibes to all...









~claudia


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## TurboClaudia

new thread for May/June 2006 in the NEW BREASTFEEDING CHALLENGES FORUM!!! http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=459969

~c


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