# Please Help Me...sigh...My Friend is a Crappy Mother!



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Okay, well, that was a harsh title....please don't come down on me before reading the full post.

My friend "Nikki" is the same age as me (21), had her son at the same age I had mine (16--unplanned for both of us) and I've known her since 8th or 9th grade. I love her to DEATH. I know I can go to her with ANY problem I have and she'd listen and make me laugh.

She's completely NON AP(for example, shunned the idea of BFing, let her son CIO, kept him in the carrier all the time, puts him in 9 hour a day day-care 5 days a week--even days she's not working, etc)---which doesn't present a problem to me at all. I mean, yeah, I'd love it if she were AP, but whatever--that's not my issue here. In fact, none of my friends IRL are.

ANYWAYS-Here's the problem. I want to restate that I love this girl....She is SO mean to her son (4.5 yo). She will call him--both kidding and in anger-- (pardon my language) stupid, an a**hole, a "little f**k" a loser, a ****, a spaz, a ******, a dirtball, etc. And he's so used to it, that he doesn't cry--it doesn't outwardly phase him at all. She does the whole smack/swat on the butt, but no REAL spankings (like I got when I was little-the whole pants and panties down, lay over the legs and get at least 5 hard whacks). She also jerks him around. She has no interest in his life/development (he doesn't know his ABCs or how to count to 10) She is a great person, but a bad mother.

She's been through a lot, with her son's father being an addict, negligent (fell asleep in a pain-killer induced high and dropped lit cigarette on his ds's chest--still scarred till this day) eventually just up and leaving them.
She was about to enroll to college when she found out she was pregnant (by fiance, not her ds's dad). She outwardly told me SHE DOES NOT WANT THIS BABY (she was under the impression that her fiance was infertile, as he had measles as a child and was told of his infertility by his mom). I really feel for her...

I know it's because she is VERY stressed and unhappy w/her life, and that's what scares me---I'm worried about what'll happen after her baby girl is born. Needless to say, her stress level is not going to go down....(Obviously if I thought her child(ren) were being abused, I would say something and ultimately notify the authorities). I also know that she was raised in a similar environment

I've offered to take him for the afternoon/night/weekend/etc for her so she can relax, and she only took me up on it twice in his life. And to tell the truth, the kid has behavior problems (IMveryHO due to lack of discipline and need for attention)--for example at my DS's bday party (in March)-he "shot" everyone with his noise maker, hit some kids VERY hard with a DVD box, and bit my son's Birthday Balloon-intentionally popping it.

My son loves playing with him (they literally grew up together), and I can honestly say that he doesn't pick up any of these manorisms/behaviors, he has a very good grasp as to what's bad, good, acceptable, etc...But to tell the truth it's not very fun for me to be around him

Okay--my point? I guess I needed to vent.
Does anyone have any ideas? I feel bad for both her and her son (not to mention unborn dd). It's getting to the point where I'm limiting play dates and trips to the mall (it's embarassigng to be around her when she treats him like that-which is always)
Directly confronting her is not really an option as I don't feel comfortable doing so...I've dropped hints...but she has no other source of AP "support"/influence/advocacy etc except me, and in the past year we've been seeing each other less freq due to schedules, relocations, school, work, etc). She is literally my only real friend and I do care for her.

Okay, well, I'm done rambling. I think more than anything I'm frustrated because I feel helpless-to her and her kid(s).

Thank you--any help will be appreciated.
--Kelly


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## Icequeen_in_ak (Mar 6, 2004)

Personally, I'd turn her into child protective services. What she is saying to her son is ABUSE! They do investigations on mental abuse... not just physical!

She needs serious counseling and if she talks to her son that way, she certainly gives the impression that she doesn't want him. Why not give him a chance to end up with a family that would want him!

I'm sorry to come across so harsh, but I knew a girl who treated her kids the exact same way you talk about and both of those kids are now in their early teens and have been taken away from her and are both in counseling 4 times a week (court ordered). I'd take all necessary measures to ensure her son doesn't end up destroyed like this girls kids.

If she was truly your best friend, you should feel comfortable enough to sit down with her and give her the low down. What she is doing is WRONG and should be stopped!

Good luck!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I work with social services and the stuff you're describing:

"She will call him--both kidding and in anger-- (pardon my language) stupid, an a**hole, a "little f**k" a loser, a ****, a spaz, a ******, a dirtball, etc. And he's so used to it, that he doesn't cry--it doesn't outwardly phase him at all."

is considered abuse here. They wouldn't take him away from her for that, but she sounds like she needs counseling and help managing her emotions, which DSS can help her get.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I think the above posts are good but you're probably wondering what to do with them. You can make an anonymous phone call to social services and tell them the same thing you told us. Just say that you feel she needs to be investigated and you're hoping she'll get ordered to do a certain amount of counseling. She will never have to know it was you who called. It could have been anyone - even the daycare workers. I know it's really hard and seems like a harsh thing to do to your friend, but this may be a way for you to get her the help that she desperately needs. She probably would never go to counseling on her own.

One other thing, I noticed you're a doula. Are you going to be her doula for this birth? I hope so. If she can bond with her baby better she'll have a better chance of actually "liking" this one. That's another way you can help her - at least she could get a good start in the mother/child relationship.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

ummmmmmm...anyone who calls their 4.5 year old a ********, among all the other horrific unmentionables...is not really a good person. Lots of us have had awful parent/parents and childhoods, myself included, but what you do now that you are all grown up is your responsibility. AP or mainstream parenting are not the topic with your friend. The topic is abusive parenting. I am absolutely seething right now, for crying out loud!
Tell her to grow up and stop taking her mistakes out on an innocent little one!!!





















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Sorry to OP for not being supportive and gentle in your situation, but I am so angry right now.









Will post again later.


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)




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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

I agree. She is abusive and is doing a terrible thing to her son.

Is your own dd around to witness this abuse?

I've had to limit the ways in which I can spend time with certain friends (phone calls and emails only, very rare occasions of getting together for a limited amount of time) because their neglectful parenting is too much for me to handle, and not something I wish to expose my dd to.

I don't think it is fair to say that anyone is not a good person. It sounds like she is a very damaged person, and she's lucky to have a supportive friend like you. Right now, though, you need to decide who you are going to put first, your own child or your friend, because it sounds as though spending time with your friend is damaging to both you and your daughter.


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

I HATE







it when people use there bad life experiences as an excuse for their own bad behavior or in this case parenting. I had an extremely difficult life, with a drug abusing mother and father. I saw terrible things like my father breaking down our front door and trying to litterally kill my mother. But you know what, I got through it and I am able not to do hurtfull and abusive things myself. I would never condone that kind of behavior or abuse. Just because she had a hard life does not mean that it is okay for her to hurt her kids, mentally or physically. It is difficult for me to understand how you can continue to enable her when you know what she is doing is so dammaging and wrong.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

I had a friend that was alot like you describe your friend to be.In her case a visit from cps turned out to be a good thing.they got her into parenting and anger management classes.i think it helped her to be a better mom cause she really didn,t have a clue.


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## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

I agree with most of what has already been said. She is verbally abusing that child. My sister used to do that to my niece and it makes me sick to think what that poor child endured. Your friend needs help, please help her to get it. If you think she won't go on her own, then report the abuse so they can help her.

Doreen


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Your friend is doing her child serious harm.
She needs help.
For her sake, and for the sake of her poor child, you need to step in and do something.
If you feel like you can talk to her about it, then by all means warn her about the danger of this kind of verbal abuse and suggest parenting classes.

If not, you need to call cps. You do. This child is NOT going to be okay if your friend continues to do this.

I have no idea whether your friend is a good person or not. You say she is. Then help her. She is obviously overwhelmed and angry and she is going to seriously damage her son.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I agree that you have to step in, and the best way to do that at this point would probably not be to call social services to report her. Give her a chance to get help herself. What you can do is call social services, anonymously, and tell them about the situation. Ask them what resources they have to help her. Dig around on the Internet and see what you can find in your area. Someone who calls social services and tells them that they have a problem with anger and need help will not have their children taken from them unless they feel like the kids are in dire physical danger.

You know your friend better than I do, obviously, so only you know how you can approach her with this. This is bigger than your friendship. You have to act, even if you feel like she may end your friendship as a result. She is abusing her child. She probably knows that what she is doing is not right. It may be that she wants help and doesn't know how to get it.

I've lost friends over things like this, and it is hard. The kid really deserves better than this, which you already know.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

How about an update? What's the plan?


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I have to say I'm surprised that everyone would suggest calling in CPS without first confronting your friend. I mean this isn't a stranger this is someone you say

Quote:

I can go to her with ANY problem I have and she'd listen and make me laugh
Clearly she is treating her child in an unacceptable manner. You, as her close friend, need to sit her down and have it out with her. Tell her exactly what you see her doing and how it is permanently harming her child. Tell her that she *needs* to enter counseling now both for her ds and her child-to-be. Have a list of names and numbers for her to call and sit down and make the calls with her if that's what it takes.

If this doesn't work. . . well then you should consider the CPS route.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Unfortunately it is more common for women who have babies at 16 to be troubled than it is for them to be well-adjusted like you. I am astounded that this woma hasn't received any intervention solely based on her risk level as a mother at 16.

She isn't a good person. Anyone who treats an innocent child as you described here is inherently a bad person. Sorry to be harsh.

I would do what must be done to not only protect the little boy but the new baby she's about to ruin.

She *could* give the baby up for adoption if she really doesn't want her. In fact, I know some infertile couples who would love to have the chance to adopt a baby. She doesn't need to take out her frustrations on an innocent child. Give the baby up for adoption and go to college, for heaven's sake.

Sorry I'm being harsh but, as another said, I'm damn sick and tired of people making excuses for bad behavior.

Debra Baker


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
I have to say I'm surprised that everyone would suggest calling in CPS without first confronting your friend. I mean this isn't a stranger this is someone you say

Clearly she is treating her child in an unacceptable manner. You, as her close friend, need to sit her down and have it out with her. Tell her exactly what you see her doing and how it is permanently harming her child. Tell her that she *needs* to enter counseling now both for her ds and her child-to-be. Have a list of names and numbers for her to call and sit down and make the calls with her if that's what it takes.

If this doesn't work. . . well then you should consider the CPS route.

I disagree. It seems like with a person who has such deeply held anger as the OP's friend obviously does, confronting her could really wreck the relationship. If she gets a visit from CPS and is (hopefully) ordered into counseling and/or parenting classes or anger management classes, then the OP can serve as a great source of stability and support for her during that time and help to reinforce the things that she's learning.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

ITA with Dragonfly.

I am sorry you are in a bad position here Kelly









I am sure you are suprised at the number of people suggesting a call to CPS, but she really is damaging her son so badly.

I think you could be of the most help by calling CPS and remaining her friend to support/encourage/positively influence her.

I too am worried about what YOUR child is seeing and hearing with this woman.

My dh grew up in an abusive family, and I swear he is blind to it now-- he works for a man who is verbally abusive to the employees, and it doesn't even faze dh, it's like he doesn't realize he is worth more than that- and his abuse was more mild than what your friend is doing. Please help this boy and his sister.


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## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:

....(Obviously if I thought her child(ren) were being abused, I would say something and ultimately notify the authorities)
Her child IS being abused. I had to break out my child abuse module on Identifying and Reporting Abuse for this one. I had to complete these and take a class on child abuse before I could start providing childcare. On emotional abuse the module states...

"How can you tell if emotional abuse is happening within a family? Often you will observe it when a parent talks with or about the child. The parent might:

call the child names;
make fun of the child's art work, speech, excitement, efforts at performing or mastering a skill;
talk very negatively about the child; e.g., "She's just stupid"; "She can never learn;"
ignore the child or refuse to hug hold or touch the child.

Children who experience emotional abuse will usually show you in a number of ways that they have low self-esteem. The child might:

be afraid to risk;
cry easily;
be dependent on adults;
cling to adults;
withdraw;
be aggresive;
say "I can't" frequently."

Whether you talk to her or call CPS you need to do something to help that child out.


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## Mavournin (Jul 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
I have to say I'm surprised that everyone would suggest calling in CPS without first confronting your friend.

Sadly, this won't nessessarily work. I had a friend (we no longer speak) who *needed* to be reported to CPS, but I was too afraid to do it. Too afraid of my guilt, too afraid that my anonymous call would be eventually outed... (I really cared about her at the time, she just made crappy parenting decisions.) So I tried confronting her. I tried lots of times. Nothing happened. If anything it got worse.

In my case, by the time I had resolved to call CPS she left her husband and DS for someone else. I wish there was an easy answer. Maybe your friend would be receptive to your concerns. Maybe calling CPS is the only solution. (What she is doing is wrong. No question. It has to stop one way or the other.) I hope it works out.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Okay, so I guess this is an update.

MamaAll-No, I'm not going to be her doula, because like I said, she's very against AP-she only wants her fiancee there, and plans on getting the epidural **as soon as she gets to the hospital**. I'd love to be there, I asked, but I have to respect her wishes with that.

Debra and My Head, I am going to have to disagree with you, and to be honest I don't think it's very fair that you call her a bad person-you do not know what she has been through in her life, let alone these past few years. Not everyone is as strong as you and I.

She would never give the baby up for adoption, her fiancee really wants her.
**Keep in mind, she was basically tricked into getting pregnant. She was told by this man AND his mother that he was not capable of having children EVER....come to find out, she's pregnant. The mother never knew for sure, never spoke w/a doctor, just assumed and presented it as fact. Surprise surprise mom and son are thrilled, my friend is not.

Yes, we both got "interventions" having kids at 16-which was a load of BS. Mine was a social worker basically threatening me to charge my 18year old dp (who was 17 at the time of conception) with staturory rape--which I think had some racial motivations, but ANYWAYS! Hers was she had a social worker talk to her about adoption, etc. END OF STORY for both of us (as far as that's concerned). But please note: At that time, Nikki was thrilled to be a mom. She was engaged to what she thought was a great guy, had a steady income and LOTS of social support. Then he became a drug addict, alcoholic (sold the babies formula and diapers to buy crap), abused her, neglected the baby, her dad died, she was stuck with a rent she couldn't afford by herself, a lot of her friends moved away, she moved back in with crappy, crowded family, etc etc etc.

I am going out with ds and her and her ds on friday to see a movie...I'll talk to her about this, but in no way will I *demand Nikki do anything. If you can suggest some books that maybe I can buy her or lend her, whatever, but PLEASE nothing too AP/Natural, etc because she will not be interested in slinging the new baby, etc. Baby steps. Baby steps---I don't want to throw some "crazy" stuff at her all at once, or try to act like "Nikki, I'm a better mom than you, and here are some books to prove that! Now you MUST read them all, go to counselling and try to be just like me and all my other friends".

IF this does not work, then I will call CPS and ask them what the ramifications are. If they mention taking her son away, I will not call. But if they offer to give her counselling, classes, whatever, then I will call. You can call me stupid, but I believe that this child belongs with his mother, not a stranger. And long island is so ill-prepared for foster care that he will end up in Little Flower (basically a temporary orphanage).

Thank you all for your advice (I especially thank those of you who were not judgemental or unkind) and please feel free to post anything else you'd like to add, as well as responses to this "update". Please keep in mind that it may be a few days until I am able to get back on, as I do not have internet in my home (lack of $$!).

Best Wishes, Kelly


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, maybe a heart to heart with her about the way she speaks to her son would be good to start. It sounds like she doesn't even realize the effects her words have on her ds







.

For a book, I usually suggest "How to Behave so Your Children Will Too"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
It's not AP/GD, but it's sure better than what she is doing, and, I know what you mean about babysteps.

It is good that you care so much for this woman, she is lucky to have you. I think first and foremost, she needs to understand how her words are hurting her child.

I hope you are able to make a real difference in this family's life, surely her son will be best with his mother when she learns to treat him better.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I apologize for saying your friend is not "really a good person". I should not have judged her in that way. I understand having a really hard past. I have had one myself. I may not know what you or she have gone through, but I can certainly relate. Again, though, past is not an excuse for what we do today. Strong or not.

Quote:

She is SO mean to her son (4.5 yo). She will call him--both kidding and in anger-- (pardon my language) stupid, an a**hole, a "little f**k" a loser, a ****, a spaz, a ******, a dirtball, etc. And he's so used to it, that he doesn't cry--it doesn't outwardly phase him at all. She does the whole smack/swat on the butt, but no REAL spankings (like I got when I was little-the whole pants and panties down, lay over the legs and get at least 5 hard whacks). She also jerks him around. She has no interest in his life/development (he doesn't know his ABCs or how to count to 10) She is a great person, but a bad mother.
Things things are frightening, and I am an adult. I cannot imagine being 4.5 years old. Not only are they derogatory and demeaning, but so damaging to such a little guy. Please do not underestimate the lifetime power of words. When he is 15...he will still hear those words in his head. When he is 25...he will still hear those words in his head. When you hear things long enough, you start to believe them.

If you are so close to your friend, then speak the truth to her in love to her, and do not leave anything out. If she truly loves her son, then she will hear it and change.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Kelly, CPS will most likely NOT take the child away; in situations like hers, they will offer/demand parenting classes and counseling, both of which she can use.

I agree with talking to her first. She honestly might not be aware of the magnitutde of harm she is doing. She sounds very frustrated.

If that doesn't help, you do need to call. She is abusing him. I have my guidelines for abuse right here (from my foster parenting classes- I have the CPS guidelines), and she is emotionally abusing him.

Please help her get help.

Kristi


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Perhaps I am off, but it sounds to me like she is telling her son allll the thing she wishes she could say to his father.. When you dishonor the father you dishonor the child.. And in this case vice versa.. He maybe a worthless good for nothing bad of sh!t and bones.. It sounds like it.. But she most definately sounds like she is projecting that on to her son..

Something DOES need to be done.. She really needs an eye opener be it from you or ultimately a call from DSS?CPS what ever it is in your area.. If you wouldn't tolerate your child being called something, no other child should either..

I do have a best friend who is the complete and polar opposite of AP.. She loves her children.. Her oldest has REALLY bad ADHD.. She has called him names.. I have called her on it.. It's hurtful at the very least everytime.. And you do start to believe it..

I try to do it gently.. Like J.. You know that isn't true or nice.. What ever reason she gives me i always follow with .. It's still hurtful even if xyz.. At the very least she doesn't do it around me anymore.. So that's less he has to hear it..

Being a friend takes courage.. Be courageous here, and be her friend..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

CookieMonsterMommy - I sincerely do not mean to be offensive here, so I hope you don't take it as such. But it sounds to me that you are more interested here in protecting this woman's feelings than protecting her child (soon to be children). She needs HELP - not books, not coddling. She needs counseling. The kind of anger that would make a person abuse a child doesn't just melt away when he/she reads a book that suggests to treat them more gently.

It's awful that she has had such bad experiences. However, it sounds like she still doesn't take responsibility for her part in it and, as another mama said, that she's projecting all of her resentment onto her poor little boy.

Caring about this child means getting intervention for him NOW. If your manner of intervention is simply to offer her some books or article, then you need to seek outside help for her. The likelihood of CPS taking him away for emotional abuse alone is extremely slim so, if it comes to that, you can rest assured that it's because it is truly much worse than even you see. And if it is that much worse, then that child is better off not with his mother.

Having been married to a man who was endlessly called names by his father as a small child and always told he was brainless, worthless, etc., I can tell you that the results are staggeringly heartbreaking. It stunts a person's emotional growth, destroys their self-esteem, forever sends them to others for approval that they are worthy of living. It's sad.

I hope that you'll decide to do something that will really help this little boy (and his future sibling) out.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I think Pynki has hit the nail on the head. It does sound like your friend LOVES her son, but still sees his father. That is tough. I would talk with her and express your concern for her anger, her son and her daughter.

This is tough.... Sending you hugs.

I would also consider calling CPS to help with counselling. It is important for her to learn how to deal with anger.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I believe that your friend has a lot of issues that basically have hammered her self esteem into the ground...i think she needs counselling for her problems and needs to be "raised up" herself so she can raise her son...fixing her own issues and learning to value herself will trickle down to her son...

I would suggest "Self Matters" by Dr. Phil...(I know, everybody hates his parenting advice) but many people find his books to be very helpful to their lives(we are all different~different messages help different people)

It's very hands on...things and steps she can take to improve her opinion of herself thus making her happier...this will in turn trickle down to her son...after which some helpful parenting advice to help her become a better mom...I would bet she was raised with this language and was treated this way..often we parent the way we were parented.

She resents the little boy and maybe subconsciously blames him for her lot in life. Good luck and continue to be a good friend. I hope she and her son come out on top of this.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

The name calling is really shocking. I'm surprised she isn't more physically abusive towards him, given the name calling. I agree with having a serious talk with her, letting her know that the name calling is very damaging to her son. I mean, if her boyfriend were calling her a *ucking *itch and a c**t wouldn't that be emotionally damaging? It is the same thing for her son, but worse because he is an impressionable child. He is going to grow up believing that stuff about himself. I don't want to judge her, but I've just never met a person who was really good at heart who would call their own child such horrific names. I mean, we're not talking about calling him a little brat or a pain, which is bad enough! I do think that giving her discipline books to read might help because they would give her coping skills that she might not have, but if the name calling doesn't end, something is going to have to be done. I just don't think this is fair to her child.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Again, thank you all...

Dragonfly--While I did not take offense to what you said, I do not agree with it. Nikki is not the type of person who responds well to people just coming out and telling her what to do. Believe me, in a way she does need to be coddled, which is what I meant by baby steps in my 2nd post. I would rather try a heart to heart with suggestions FIRST, because I think that she might respond to that better. She is very defensive towards people that don't know her, and if I came out and told her "Listen, either you stop treating him like that or I'm going to call CPS", she will merely sever all contact and STILL treat him that way in private. (hell, she might even blame him for the end of the friendship and take out that stress on him)

The court system here sucks--my father beat the crap out of me and hit my son (only hit my son once, which is when I called the cops). He was ordered to get a Psych. Evaluation and take Anger Management classes, and I can tell you that those damned classes, going to them, only pissed him off even more. He resented going, and as a result became emotionally abusive towards my younger sisters (esp. right after coming home from the classes). Has he learned anything from the classes? Yes-how to make sure not to get caught so he won't have to take the classes or spend some time in jail again. They didn't follow up with my father AT ALL aside from checking his attendance records at the weekly meetings. Throwing Nikki into counselling and/or classes as a 1st intervention would only make her angry and maybe more resentful.
And believe me, I know what words can do. I'm not comfortable discussing on these boards the ramifications that my father's and family's words have had on me thoughout my childhood, adolescence and even now (if you're interested, PM or email me). I know it sucks. But I also knew how my father was, and his attitude was always "If you ever call (the cops/CPS/etc), I'll make sure they have a reason to come" (not that I'm saying Nikki will be like that, but just giving you a background...I was ALWAYS taught that CPS/DSS were a bunch of trouble makers who try to break up families, and like it was said, once you hear something so many times....I mean, I know they are needed many times, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from past experiences--I could tell you of at least 3 times that CPS/DSS has made more problems than they've solved, and I only personally know of 4 cases where DSS/CPS was called)

SO~~~> I stand by my decision 100%, I will have a heart to heart with her 1st, then seriously consider calling CPS/DSS. I think that at 1st I will start with some disguised advice "Yeah, sometimes DeVante acts up/doesn't listen/etc, and the only thing that works for him is _____________". Or "OMG, I know--it's SO frustrating when DS does that. I usually just ___________" you get the point.
I honestly think that this will help out, because I know that in a way she looks up to me (maybe even envies me), because she's always saying how lucky I am to be going to college, how I conduct myself better, how she wishes she had her own appartment like I do (she lives with her fiance's mom), etc etc etc. If that doesn't work, I'll bring it up how I'm sure calling him names does hurt his feelings, and some things she can do when she's stressed out.

THEN I will look into calling CPS.

And you're right, I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not afraid of losing our friendship after everything we've been through together and like I said, not to try and get pitty, she IS my only real friend, and I am hers. (which is also why I think talking to her will help...I've just avoided it, but now it's gotten worse, and with the baby on the way, I can't pussy-foot around, I know that)

Thank you all again....I will check back as soon as I can.

Best Wishes, Kelly


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Hi Kelly,
There are lots of ways to get help without going through the govt. system. I work for a nonprofit that has services for women and children, for example. If you are interested, PM me and I'll send you a list of stuff in your area, that you might be able to bring as resources when you talk to her.


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## ParkersMama (Jan 29, 2003)

Since you plan to start with that heart-to-heart first, make it personal. Share with her EXACTLY how you felt when you were emotionally and verbally abused by your dad, and how you NOW feel about him, and how helpless you felt and how you feel now seeing her do similar stuff. This is going to be a hard talk no matter what.

And, I would focus on her son, not her unborn child. He's going through it NOW. If she can get this all under control with her son, it will be a starting place for handling this unexpected pregnancy. Make sure you also ask her WHY she does it, and if she thinks it is acceptable. If she does, nothing you say is going to change that right now, and you MUST think about the boy first.

I mean, seriously, our role as friends is to support each other when we can, and step in when supporting isn't doing enough. If she were suicidal, you would do something to intervene immediately, right? How is her treatment of her son's self-esteem and self-worth any different? It is KILLING him from the inside out. Please, talk to her ... now. Don't wait any longer.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Kelly - I'm glad you didn't take offense. I was honestly kind of worried about that.









I'm glad you have a "plan of attack." I understand what you mean about your friend becoming defensive when confronted - I kind of figured that was the situation which was why I suggested that if you're going to call CPS, to do it covertly, not to threaten her with it. And then be there to support her.

Since you're going to take a less direct approach, I did want to recommend the book, "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be." I love this book because it's made up of little vignettes that can be read in isolation or as part of a bigger picture. It also represents all different kinds of people and families - not just your typical 2-parent, double income, mainstream family. And it has anecdotes from parents voicing both their frustrations with and their admiration of their children. It's a great journey and might be a book she can really identify with.

I also agree with a previous poster who recommended opening up to your friend (if you haven't already) about the abuse you suffered from your father and how it affected your opinion of him. At some point, if you think she can handle it, maybe directly relate it to her son and how he might come to view her. That might be a good wake-up call. Good luck. I hope both this mama and *especially* her little boy get some peace.


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## MamanFrancaise (Apr 26, 2004)

Just wanted to add that maybe you could suggest that you both could take a parenting class together? I know a few crappy moms who would just laugh at that but if your friend knows what she's doing is wrong maybe she will realize she needs help.

Good luck and remember that you should put that child's needs ahead of your friend's feelings, even if it is hard to do. Good luck, you're in a very tough spot.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Just one more idea . . .could you attend a playgroup together? That way she'd have a chance to interact with her son with other moms around (people tend to be more polite in front of strangers).

Cases like this make me so sad. CPS seems like the obvious choice, but I understand your concern. Sometimes it's just a matter of choosing the lesser of the two evils, which is a horrible phrase when applied to the life of a child.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

My heart is breaking for this child, and for his mother. Is she even aware that she needs help? If she's not, then there is nothing you can do.

There are no easy answers, except your friend needs to STOP treating her child like a punching bag to vent her anger and frustrations. What she is doing IS abuse. It's called emotional abuse and it leaves deep scars on the inside. This child will learn to squash his own feelings and start having how his mother treats him determine how he feels about himself. It pisses me off that people mindlessly pass on family abuse. We have choices - you can react like a mindless machine, or you can be proactive and take control of your life. I speak from experience here. I have the worst family history even possible, and I overcame it. It doesn't take anything special, it doesn't take one person being stronger than another. It does take courage because it's uncomfortable to face it and let it go.

Your friend needs to stop acting like a victim and take control of her life, one thing at a time, the first of which needs to be her relationship with her child. Children learn what they live. Odds are that this child will grow up and be a woman abuser and have children and abuse them and so the legacy continues. THere are lots of places where she can get help. You are in her life for a reason, I truly believe that.

Tell her what you see. Help her. Parenting is the hardest job in the world under the BEST circumstances. People are not black and white, so life is not black and white.

But she has choices. She needs to forgive - others and herself. When she takes this first step she can move forward in a more healthy way.

My thoughts are with her and her child, and all children who suffer in this way.


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

My heart is just broken that kids out there suffer like this. Hey, Kelly, I know where you are. I have someone who is very close to me who parents in the same crappy way. It kills me to watch them. There's two things that stand out to me. The first one is...be careful that you don't adjust your parenting standards to meet hers. Not that you would do what she does. But life IS relative. If you started calling your ds a pain in the a## on a regular basis, relatively speaking - compared to her - isn't that bad. But IT IS. So just watch yourself.

The other thing is...for this girl, this way of parenting is so deeply embedded into her, She's been abused herself. You're going to have to tread lightly on this one. Would I call cps? Probably...eventually. Kelly, you know that she makes poor choices. Just look at her current bfriend. He's a loser. Who tricks someone into getting pregnant? There were signs and she ignored them. I don't think her parenting style is going to be easily changed, if at all. And if she keeps up at her current pace her life is going to get more and more crazy and she's going to get more and more upset that her life is so hard. IMO, I think eventually you'll really be in the position when you'll have to call CPS. Just be prepared to sit through hours of her obsessing who turned her in.

I think you are one of the very few good influences both she and her son have. I wouldn't walk away from them. Nor would I take any actions that might sever the friendship any time soon. Your ideas about a book are right on. How about a moms group for support?


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

OMG, I'm going to CRY---I just typed out a SUPER long update, and the friggen computer needed to be rebooted... Dammit....Grrrr....I mean it was very long and detailed and I was done and now I do not have the time to re-write it in the detail I had wanted...








sigh....okay, so here's a stupid bare-bones recap of the original (lol, sorry, I am very stressed....I have 4 finals in the next few days and I used a nice chunck of my study time to type that message...)

While the kids were playing a car racing game, Nikki and I were talking and I casually mentioned how ds sometimes got on my nerves and I get snotty with him--how I sometimes feel like I have no time for myself and I get overwhelmed, etc. She tells me she feels like that all the time....I mentioned that I really try my best not to yell or call ds names because I remember how I felt when my father did that (how I felt about myself and how I felt towards him), and asked her how Brian (her ds) acts when she "loses it" and she said it doesn't seem to bother him....so I told her about when I was living in a shelter (when my dad beat me and hit my son, I called the cops and wasn't welcomed home, so ds and I lived in a homeless shelter for a little while), how ds kept acting up and being rude/agressive etc (because I know that's how her ds acts in daycare) and I had to take a parenting class (which is a lie).









ANYWAYS--I told her how we learned that yelling almost never works, 1st because the kids respond to yelling with anger, fear, confusion etc. and 2nd because it teaches kids not to respect you. So I told her what I "learned" was that you have to relate things to the child because that's how they learn--i.e. instead of saying "DeVante shut the hell up, I have a headache! Quit acting like an a**hole!", it works much better to say--calmly--"DeVante, remember when you were sick and had that headache? Remember how you wanted everyone to be nice and quiet? Well, momma has a headache, so she needs you to be nice and quiet now" or instead of "DeVante will you wait a friggen second-I'm in the middle of cooking, you putz!" to say "DeVante...I'd love to play with you right now but I'm cooking dinner. You don't want icky, burnt dinner do you? Okay, so let momma finish up in here 1st, then we'll play".

She seemed VERY skeptical ("this might've worked for DeVante, but Brian's too much of a spaz! It'd never work on him!"). So I validated her feelings, yes, I know it sounds weird, and I didn't think it would work either. But if you give it time, it's amazing. As long as you remember that kids get upset when you get upset and that yelling, name calling and hitting are VERY important not to do, because then you break the respect issue. I told her it'll take at least a week before it even starts to work, and offered to share with her the handouts I got from my (imaginary) parenting class.









She actually agreed to try this for a month at minimum. I told her basically "hey, you might as well try, because this way, if it works, you won't have your hands so full when the baby's born" (either june or july, but I think june). I told her to call me if she needs me to watch Brian for a while, and to enlist the help of her mom and fiance to take care of him when she needs a break.

So...I feel bad for lying, but as I see it, these lies are productive lies that harm no one (yes, I must confess, I am a supporter of little white lies--if that's truly what they are--in a lot of circumstances). She really does seem interested (after all, her way is not working!) and almost amazed that being respectful and calm could actually work.
















But--PROBLEM--these handouts that I got from this non-existant class also (you guessed it) do not exist!! So I am in the process of typing up my own sheets, just 3 or 4. On one, I will include statistics (about the cycle of abuse, how abuse damages kids, risks, etc--I googled all of that, so I'm set), on the other will be resources (books like the ones listed, parenting hotline, local counseling agencies, etc), and on the other two, I'd like to have bullet-pointed "how-to" tips--between 1-4 lines each--as well as some short paragraphs/quotes, etc. So, I am enlisting your help AGAIN! If you guys could just give some tips, pointers, reasons why to GD (or a modified version of it), etc, that would be GREAT.










The reason I'm setting it up like this is because I feel this is what she will respond to best. Right now, as much as I'd love her to, she will not be reading a parenting book-she's about 7 months pregnant (a little more) and works 40hrs a week--she has not the time or the energy for that. So can you give me some quick tips (on how to keep her cool, handle tough situations, reduce stress, etc) and/or short paragraphs summing up what makes GD the better choice for her and her kids?

Any questions/comments/responses/advice will be greatly appreciated by both myself, and I'm sure by Brian.









Thank you very much,
Kelly


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

First I want to commend you on being a great friend and trying to help both her and her child.

You might want to check out the thread Keeping your own anger in check I started it a while back to help myself and others find ways to keep from yelling. There are a lot of great suggestions that have been working for me - I can attest - and may be helpful to your friend that you could include in your "handout"


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Great update! You can give her a copy of Dr. Sears "The Discipline Book" too. I might have some handouts I can copy from my foster parent training too, I'll check.


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## ParkersMama (Jan 29, 2003)

That is an awesome thing you are doing for her and, more importantly, for Brian. I'm so glad that you did talk to her and that you made it personal. I hope you keep the communication between you two alive, and revisit the subject often. Although I have no specifics for you to add to those handouts right now, I would like to suggest that AFTER you finish them, you offer them not only to her, but to local agencies, etc. that could benefit from these same handouts.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I think you could just print out a bunch of articles (and highlight important parts) from The Natural Child Project .There is no direct link, but click on the "articles" section, and then on "Living with Children." There are tons of articles such as "10 Reasons Not to Hit Your Child" and "Ten Steps that Transform Anger into Compassionate Connection." You'll have to find the articles that best fit your friend, as some of them seem a little too academic/cerebral to really speak to a person in her situation . . .

Maybe start with just a few articles (two?) at a time, so that she doesn't get overwhelmed. I think your friend needs some "whys" on GD, but she'll need some good, solid "how to" advice, too.

I think your white lies were totally justified! Woo hoo!

Keep the updates coming!


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

You might also want to mention to your friend that her son's behaviour will probably get a lot worse for awhile when she first starts. He's testing her to see if this new treatment is just a phase. She needs to just keep sticking with it, no matter how frustrated she might get. Eventually he'll begin to believe that this change is not just a fluke and she will start seeing changes. It could take quite awhile though since she's been cruel to him for so long. Also, with a new baby coming, he may be very likely to revert to his bad behaviour for awhile after the baby get here. If she's prepared for these kinds of setbacks, she won't take them so badly she decides that more gentle parenting isn't working.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

What about "how to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk" by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish?

The book is FULL of short, simple suggestions you can give your friend.


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## mother4good (Mar 16, 2003)

CookieMonsterMom:

I ran a few quick searches and came up with the links below. Cautin: I did not read them all, so you might want to review what they say. The point is that there is alot out there. It only took me a minute to find these. I know everybody here hates Dr. Phil, but IRL we do have friends and family who lead their lives differently than us. He is doing a series on parenting now. His advice is often not stuff I would do, but I am pretty sure he would never condone putting a kid down or "jerking" him around, as you have described. If you think she would watch Dr. Phil--you could mention it to her and how you saw a show that talked about xyz (their recaps are on the website)...maybe it would spark and interest for her. Watching is so much easier than reading or going to classes, etc, so she might not even realize she is learning something. You might not be able to make her AP, but your good example backed by some other "autoritative" suggestions like the handouts and famous people.

I applaud you for sticking to your guns about what would work with your friend. It is so easy for outsiders to say what they would do, but you know this girl and what would work with her. My AP friends LITERALLY changed my life and that of my kids. I was not abusive or anything, but raised with CIO and bottle feeding, etc. It took a dear friend of mine who always modeled but never preached to show me a better way. (luckiny I knew her long before I had kids!) I love her so much for it and she continues to be someone I look up to. You can be this for Nikki.

Best of luck to you both!

http://www.more-selfesteem.com/child_self_esteem.htm

http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice....Raising%20Kids

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_d...YVSC&sub_cat=1


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I just wanted to add that I think you are a wonderful and caring friend! It isnt easy - as you know - and I think your friend and her son are lucky to have you in their lives!


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## napless (Mar 20, 2003)

I don't have anything to add - except to second the recommendation for "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...". It's very readable and the techniques are short and easy - and in my case, they have had great results.

I just wanted to say that you are a wonderful friend. Wow. I wish you and you friend, and her children (and your son!) all the very best.


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## beatgirl (Dec 10, 2003)

Wow..I just read this entire thread and my opinion has jumped all over the place.

First of all..."nikki' is very lucky to have a friend like you.

Second of all...I can tell you first hand that being called names and demeaned on a regular basis as a child destroys your self esteem. I grew up in such a household with a single mom who had my brother and I at 16 and 19. She was incredibly impatient and never hesitated to let us know what pains in the asses we were.

I grew up always second guessing myself and always doubting my ability to be good enough for anything. It took me until I was a mother myself to realise that I wanted to be the exact opposite type of parent.

I think that the reason I broke the cycle and was able to see the error of my mothers parenting was the fact that I was around other kids and their parents who didnt treat them like crap. To this day I am still close with my childhood friends mom...she even calls my kids her grandchildren.

The reason I am saying this is that I think you could be that good influence in this boys life. Sure, keep counseling the mom and wishing for the best, but in the meantime you could reinforce his life positively by planning activities with him and your son and asking him about his day etc...you could be the one that he trusts and turns to as he gets older..because allthough she is going to 'try' to modify her behavior...a lot of the damage has already been done.

Best of luck to you, your friend and her little boy


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## Yarnia (Aug 29, 2003)

Hi there,
Maybe you can get some info from this thread I started a while back. I found the how to talk so your kids will listen book esp helpful.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=100639

You know, to me it seems that as a mom your first priority should be your child. If you can't get your friend's behavior straightened out then you should make a point of not exposing your child to her verbal abuse. I mean, you probably would change the channel if there was language like that on the tv or radio!
If it came to that, I think you should let her know why you are limiting your child's time with them in the gentlest way possible, even if it is necessary to "take the blame" and label yourself "overprotective" or whatever comes to mind.
It may be just the push she needs, even if it makes her mad at first.

You are very clever to have come up with your plan and present it with a straight face








Keep us posted!


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