# God, and ultrasound and 161 new Christians



## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

My friend ( coworker of sorts) just sent me the newsletter for her anti-choice group. Now, she knows I am pro-choice but insists on sharing propaganda with me anyhow. I don't mind, because we are close enough that I really let her know my opinion















But the one she sent me today just has me ready to scream!

the newsletter talk about "Tamika" who thought, because of Planned Parenthood, that she was only carrying a 'grain of rice' . But thanks to God, for allowing this group to have an ultrasound machine, they showed her it was not rice, but a baby ( direct quotes).
The letter goes on to talk about using the power of God through the power of ultrasound and ends with a great big pat on the self-indulgent back of "and we have 161 NEW Christians!"

I am then encouraged to take a baby bottle door to door and collect money so they can buy more ultrasound machines.

This seems so vile to me. The tactics, the misleading information, the judgement!


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

What is so vile about showing a woman she is carrying a baby and not a blob? The women still had the choice to abort, but now she could see the reality of what was in her womb.

I think if this country is going to continue to abort a woman first should be fully warned of all possible consquences and have an ultrasound. If she still wants to abort I guess she will just have to live with any of the possible consquences emotional or physical.Side effects


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

yes it's vile, but they'll get new Christians any way they can get them. History has proven that time and again......


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

SQ- you missed my point I guess. I am all for informed consent- and if someone does not understand that they are carrying a baby then u/s is a good tool. The vile factor is that Planned Parenthood no more told this woman she was carrying a grain of rice than God himself gave them their u/s machine. puhlease. They are twisting a situation to get peoples goat and get more $ for their coversion campaign. By conversion, I mean religous disguised as a medical office.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Planned Parenthood is a vile group to begin with. I know a woman who speaks out agianst abortion who has had one from PP many years ago and she was not given all the FACTS.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

PP is so vile! Ooh, they are baaaaaaaaaaaaad!

PP gave me my FREE annual pap smear last week. For insurance purposes. When I called every OBGYN in the area and they quoted me $200 and upwards for a PAP, I couldn't afford that.

Christian OBGYNs even! The nerve.

So PP gave me my much needed PAP. Free.

Where are all the Christian funded, Christian rhetoric'd Women Centers for people like me who need a PAP?

'Cuz I couldn't find 'em in the Yellow Pages.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by playdoh_
*So PP gave me my much needed PAP. Free.
*
as long as you see it is a secret plot to convert you to being a free thinking woman.:LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ha ha this free thinking woman got her first birth control pills and pap from planned parenthood


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Planned Parenthood has been a wonderful blessing in my life.

Years ago, when my dh and I first started being sexually active, I had a bad reaction to the method of birth control we were using. I went to the university's health center, where a conservative Christian doctor proceeded to lecture me about premarital sex (I wasn't there for counseling, I was bleeding!) and then he moved my tipped uterus into the "normal" location! I had terrible cramps for days (and missed school) as my body moved my uterus back to what was NORMAL for MY BODY.

I went to PP, and they not only restored my faith in my body (No, sex doesn't have to make you bleed, and Yes, your uterus is just fine where it is), and treated me with respect and gentleness, they gave me accurate, thorough information about and access to birth control.

Years later, when a home pregnancy test failed to give a readable result, I went to PP for a pregnancy test. It was positive and I was overjoyed, the staff was, again, supportive and informative (they told me to go to LLL).

I contribute regularly to Planned Parenthood!

Ann-Marita


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

i"ve heard of those "ultrasounds" before. A woman who has JUST MISSED HER PERIOD goes in a sees a fully formed fetus with arms, legs, and a face. Yeah, right.

There weren't any Christian groups out there willing to give me free PAPs and birth control pills when I was in college. PP did. This Christian right here took more than one free pregnancy test there, too. Once I went in for a free test and there was another woman in there at the same time. Her test was positive and you could hear her scream in excitement when the nurse told her. They were all hugging her and wishing her congratulations.

Those evil, evil women, empowering women with knowledge about their bodies! How dare they!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Educating women about their bodies is very evil indeed!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Just wanted to add that I know plenty of married women who use PP, too. The conservatives in this country have made sure that insurance companies don't have to cover birth control for women. Viagra is fine, but not birth control! Don't know of any churches that give out free or reduced cost birth control, either.


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## doulamomvicki (Nov 4, 2003)

The pro-life clinic in my community give free paps and birth control pills. As a matter of fact, most of the well women care we do is to uninsured women who would have to pay at PP.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I had my first Pap at PP by a very nice midwife, she was gentle and talked to me the whole time ... I was 15.
I also got cheep birthcontrol there for years and they always had a basket of condoms and info on the desk for people to take for free.
When years later my dh and I decided we wanted to start a family money was tight, I went to PP for my PG test... (I was young 20 at the time) but man I was so happy it came back +... and so where they. They are about having a CHOICE. I was choosing to have a baby... they where totally thrilled. Gave me a list of OB's and midwives, LLL number.

They rock. PP is NOT all about abortion. It si called PLANNED Parenthood for a reason. Not Abortionhood.

H


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I hear that most abortion providers do an ultrasound to check for fetal age, but that they won't let the woman look at the screen for fear it might "upset her."

I say let her look at the screen if she wants. It's her body, she has a right to see what everyone else is seeing. Some people who have had abortions have even told me it was helpful to be able to see the fetus first.

And some told me it made them not want the abortion at the last minute, and they have been happy with their choice ever since.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

PP offered to let me see the ultrasound screen when I went in for an abortion. I declined.
They also fully informed me about the procedure. They counseled me and my boyfriend. They wanted to be absolutely sure that I was sure about my decision. I was. I had no doubts. And I still don't regret it. I even sent PP a thank you card, and I continue to donate money to them.

PP is a wonderful organization. They provide many services to women. I've taken friends there for pregnancy tests and birth control for years.


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## clewal (Nov 20, 2001)

Just wanted to pop in and say that it is not the insurance company that decides what is covered and not covered. It is company that buys the policy that decides what is covered.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I had an early u/s for my planned, wanted pregnancy. (Probably an unnecessary one, I had some spotting.) I was looking for something baby-like. What I saw wasn't like a grain of rice--it was like a kidney bean! It really changed my feelings about abortion that I could feel these changes in my body with this teeny fetus.

And then, because I had the baby, I got really impressed about the whole process of the tiny bean growing into a person. Wow.

It's funny that this comes up now. I knew that my co-worker had worked for a women's health clinic that provided abortions. I didn't know she had done abortion counseling as part of her managerial job. It was her job to turn away women who didn't really seem sure of their decision. It was a very hard job, because women would come in feeling desperate and yet obviously also ambivalent. Some of them cursed her out for making them wait 24 hours.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sheacoby_
*Educating women about their bodies is very evil indeed!*
it is indeed. next thing you know, otherwise-submissive wives will discover orgasms and there'll be no saving society then!


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

I went to Planned Parenthood years ago when I had no insurance for my pap smear and birth control. I requested a diagphram fitting since that is the method I had been using successfully for years. The doctor who attended me tried to talk me into the using the Pill or an IUD. I said no, I wanted the diagphram. I did not like using hormones in my system nor did I want to risk PID with an IUD, which they are know for causing.

The doctor told me abruptly and rudely that I should go someplace else and left the room.

I did.

Incidentally, this was not free. I paid for this visit. I was treated very rudely and I did not deserve this kind of treatment.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

when I went through the whole "f**** I'm pregnant and 18" i went through the abortion provider process.. I found one that was willing to do an 16-18 week abortion. But I really didn't like how the bitch told me that she'd tell me if I could have one. It was her condescending tone that pissed me off. 18, graduated from highschool, no parents. I was the one making my decisions and I sure as hell wasn't going to travel for 2 hrs by crowded city bus just to be turned away.

Moot point though.. I lost the baby via a nasty miscarriage at 19 weeks and the place I had called up for the abortion was not PP.

The "loving christian" organization that I had called up about adoption had shown up and given me the entire shpiel about finding an open adoption, abortion is murder, etc etc etc. Then they called me every week and told me about these loving families that were interested in my baby....

Just imagine the response when I got called the week or so after I miscarried. Did they even bother to give me any support after that? Nope. Because I didn't have a marketable commodity anymore, I was worthless to them. Not an apology, not any sympathy. Nothing.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lotusdebi_
*PP offered to let me see the ultrasound screen when I went in for an abortion. I declined.
*
I am glad to hear that. I personally went to PP as a younger gal too, but the office was small and I don't think they even had an u/s.
I too support PP and am sad that the Bush administration took interantional aid away from groups that fund PP abroad.
Just look at all the International PP does! IPPF it is truly amazing.
Mamid, I am sorry that you fell victim to the " we only like you if we have our way with you" mentallity of the righteous right. I often wonder why those groups don't get more active in the whole spectrum of womens cycles if they care so much.
Miriam- yikes







was this a MALE doc? Sounds like it! I only go to female gyn's and midwives, and was lucky to only have females at PP in the past.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

I got my pregnancy test (for dd) done at PP
They were so happy that i was happy, as i'm sure that doesn't happen too much.
PP is a great provider.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

But do they give the same congratulations to teens, single women, and poor women? Or do they take the classist approach and only support reproduction among those who are "fit"?


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Greaseball, i don't know abou that. they didn't know my marital status, my age or my income level. they were just gladly surprised that i was indeed trying to get pregnant, and was thusly happy with the results.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by miriam_
*I went to Planned Parenthood years ago when I had no insurance for my pap smear and birth control. I requested a diagphram fitting since that is the method I had been using successfully for years. The doctor who attended me tried to talk me into the using the Pill or an IUD. I said no, I wanted the diagphram. I did not like using hormones in my system nor did I want to risk PID with an IUD, which they are know for causing.

The doctor told me abruptly and rudely that I should go someplace else and left the room.

I did.

Incidentally, this was not free. I paid for this visit. I was treated very rudely and I did not deserve this kind of treatment.*
Sounds like you got a jerk of a doctor. They exist, in private practice and other places!

My PP fitted me for a diaphragm at a reduced cost since I was a starving student. I had nothing but good experiences with them, and I gladly contribute because I believe all women deserve reproductive choices.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

My understanding is that not all of the offices operate with a sliding scale fee. You can blame that on our government-- no funding for those who wish to promote women's health!

I used to pay $5 a month for pills and $15 a year for a PAP. I was told that I wouldn't be turned away if I couldn't pay. I haven't been in years, but I donate regularly.

Of course there are going to be assholes at PP. But I can't think of another organization that has come close to promoting women's health issues and providing low or no cost reproductive health care to women. It is not a perfect organization, but damned if I'm going to sit here and trash it because there really are few other options out there.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by KeysMama_
*"and we have 161 NEW Christians!"
*
This is the part that honestly keeps scratching at my brain. Are they refering to the babies here? One must choose to be a Christian. So claiming those babies as members is alittle... well I don't know what but it's really sitting wrong with me.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

Mamid, I am sorry that you fell victim to the " we only like you if we have our way with you" mentallity of the righteous right. I often wonder why those groups don't get more active in the whole spectrum of womens cycles if they care so much.
That's just it. They don't care. All they want to do is stop abortions. If they really cared, the care would extend until the child came of age. Instead, as soon as the baby's born, if it is adopted, the mother is dropped. If it isn't, she might get some extra help for another year or so in clothing, but that's about it. Do they help her get a job? Find daycare? Help her get assistance if she needs it?

Just makes me sick seeing how they prey on vulnerable women and use scare tactics and lies to stop abortions.

If they really want to help, they can stop sending money to missionairies and start at home - take one single mother and help her get established. Help her find work, etc etc etc. Until they do that, I have no respect for the prolife groups. I don't even have to say christian because 90% of them are militant christians.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

My understanding is that not all of the offices operate with a sliding scale fee. You can blame that on our government-- no funding for those who wish to promote women's health!
The PP in my hometown now has a grant for poor women to get almost everything they need there, but it wasn't always that way. I was homeless and jobless when I was 17, and overdue for a pap if I wanted to continue my depo-provera, and they told me that the "sliding scale fee" for a pap smear for someone who had no income was $60! Where was I supposed to come up with that? Wouldn't $0 be a more accurate figure?

Mamid, ITA about those groups. Instead of sending a missionary to your home, why not send a loving babysitter? How come at those crisis pregnancy centers that are run by christians, they don't tell you how to apply for public assistance or how to get child support? When I was in an abusive relationship they gave me a pamphlet that said domestic abuse rarely happened if the man and woman were married. Yeah, like abuse never happens among married couples. Marriage is their big solution for everything, isn't it?







:


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Greaseball wrote:

"How come at those crisis pregnancy centers that are run by christians, they don't tell you how to apply for public assistance or how to get child support?"

Greaseball, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, because I have a lot of respect for your perspective, having read about your various experiences. I just wanted to address this question of yours. The fact is, the CPC's are donation-funded and volunteer-staffed, so the quality of information and assistance is going to be extremely variable. I volunteer at one in downtown Chicago that is well-funded by donors all over the Chicagoland area, plus we have a really sharp director who used to be a social worker, so we are able to offer just the kind of help you mention. We have a huge stack of KidCare applications (getting kids on health plans), plus we refer to two of the city's Catholic hospitals for full prenatal care. At the mothers' first appointment, she is helped to apply for public aid if she needs it. If she doesn't qualify, she can still be treated though 6 wks. postpartum at our CPC's expense.
We also have a mentoring program for clients who are in particularly tough situations. A client is matched with a mentor who helps her in such areas as continuing her education, finding a job, accumulating the material possessions needed for the baby, etc., but most importantly, encouragement and moral support. It is a fabulous program and I'm really proud of it.

Bashing the CPC's is no better than bashing Planned Parenthood. They're not all the same. Each one is defined by the unique gifts and shortcomings of its resources as well as the cultural climate of its location.

in response to the OP, I can totally understand being upset about the painting of PP in a negative light, especially if you know some altruistic people who work there, ir if you are emotionally invested in it becasue you've had a good experience there or given money to it. But I don't understand being miffed about the ultrasounds or the evangelistic nature of some centers. Women facing crisis pregnancies are at a crossroads in their lives and many look to spirituality for strength. It's a time of uncertainty, of pondering life and death issues, of confronting right and wrong.

As for the ultrasounds, we consider them a critical tool. CPC's data show that about 50 % of abortion-vulnerable women will choose to continue their pregnancies after counseling alone, but that number jumps to 90 % when they view ultrasounds of their babies. Showing an ultrasound doesn't take away choice, it just gives a woman more on which to base her choice. And inresponse to someone's charge that we somehow fake ultrasounds, that's just false.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I haven't read all the posts, but I will say this. I am pro-choice. But, PP doesn't give pregnant women all the facts. Now, some may, but I know of two clinics in CA that don't. They do tell women that it "isn't a baby, just some cells, no big deal". I am serious.

I think that women should get ALL available information about pregnancy; and while some PP may do that, some do not.

Kristi


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

I have had pretty good interactions with PP over the years, though their have been some issues. From age of 15 through college, they were my primary source of affordable reproductive care. I had my pregnancy test done 2 weeks after collge graduation (yep, I was preggo







), and was asked what my feeling and thoughts were on the + test before they started in on discussing next steps (i.e. tailored the care towards my stated needs). I was single, "youthful" looking, and obviously surprised by the result, but was never made to feel that I should be making any specific decision.

I went to PP to have an $50 ultrasound with my 2nd pregancy because there was some thought that I might be carrying twins and midwife didn't have an ultrasound machine. I ended up needing another one because the doctor at PP could not read the ultrasound picture to be able to say for sure whether he could see a second fetus







:...ultimately I got what I paid for. Luckily I had insurance to cover it, but it required jumping through hoops to get there, which is why I went to PP in the first place... and it was billed to my insurance company at about $700 by the 2nd provider.

What I find so annoying with the newsletter the OP got is that they obviously found the most (likely) unintellegent, uninformed person they could to quote to make their asinine point (assuming the quote came from a real person and was not fabricated to "prove" their point). Nobody says a zygote/fetus/baby is "like a grain of rice"...does anyone REALLY believe that a medical caregiver (or even volunteer) actually SAID something like that? Perhaps they described it as being the SIZE of a grain of rice, but that is NOT the same thing. And does it bother anyone else that the supposed quote is attributed to someone whose name sounds African American? What does this say about this group's racial sensitivity/insensitivity, or the veiled assumption that they needed to "save" this poor (stupid) woman from the big bad PP people who would lie/misinform her?....pluulease. Sorry, I digress...

I am not saying that PP is perfect...but they are the closest thing that currently exists. Just as with CPC, PP offices are peopled by mostly volunteers, including the medical staff. As with any organization that utilizes large numbers of volunteers, the successfulness and professionalism of each office and staff will vary. But since PP is really the only organization providing the full spectrum ofservices that PP offers, I am not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak).


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

To Keysmama:

No, it was a woman doctor. A nasty, rude woman doctor.

I have not been back since.

I do not like to be treated that way. There is really no way to complain about treatment like that. One just has to go elsewhere.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Thanks NM. Your center sounds really great. Thank you for contributing. I wish more Christians were like you.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

SP and NM - Your CPCs sound more like what people actually need. I have gone to a few for pregnancy tests and the services they offered were limited to the testing, abstinence counseling, free baby clothes and furniture if they had anything in, and a post-abortion support group. Useful services, but hardly everything one needs.

I worry about the u/s machines being used for this purpose because that's one of my worries about u/s - that it can be used by literally anyone. No one needs any kind of medical license or special training to operate an ultrasound device; there are large shopping malls where expectant moms can scan themselves! U/s machines are not required to be regularly calibrated the way x-ray machines are. Too many people seem to think u/s is a toy; something to do for fun or to get baby pics to pass around at the office.

At least in an abortion clinic, they are being operated by medical professionals. Do CPCs have nurses who run the machines - and hopefully educate expectant moms that it's a diagnostic tool, not just for fun - or can anyone run them?


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Well, GB, most CPC's are affiliated with umbrella organizations, such as Heartbeat International, that publish guidelines that the CPC's have to abide by. I know you have to have a trained technician in order to be in compliance with Heartbeat's regulations. Here's a link from Focus on the Family regarding what it expects in terms of ultrasound : http://www.family.org/pregnancy/general/a0027236.html


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I *personally* don't understand why women refuse to look at the u/s - or are denied seeing the u/s - b/c then they will be making a more, uh, informed decision...

I know of two women who got abortions in their late first trimesters and thought it was a clump of cells. No, it's actually a miniature baby. Armed with this info., they may have made a different decision.

As far as this particular Christian organization goes... well...
I just won't comment. 'Cuz if you don't have anything nice to say...


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I think women should have the option of seeing an ultrasound for sure but I can understand why one wouldn't want to. And I don't think that makes one any less informed.
For that matter I won't have an ultrasound again unless there is a real medical reason to have one.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

That's true, Sheacoby. Probably more emotional, but not very likely to change your mind, huh? I can understand why now.... if I was going in to have an abortion and I definitely wanted it, why put myself through the trauma of watching the u/s and everything?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

what really has p'o'ed me about christian organizations that are so "right to life" are two incidents I had with them other than the lack of support when I miscarried.

1: a bunch of protestors outside an abortion provider/OB's office confronted me when I into the building to meet up with the lady I was babysitting for about how I was killing my baby. I had both a boy and girl with me at the time that I was babysitting. And they were disturbed by the images that they saw. I got pissed when I told them that I had a spontaneous abortion less than a year ago and I found their images upsetting and the group surrounded me and started to call me a murderess and more.

I got into the face of the first person who first called me murderess and told her bluntly that _I almost died when I had the spontaenous abortion and that how dare she call me a murderess! That they didn't enough what a spontaneous abortion was and that they should look it up in a medical dictionary, but because they were too illiterate to read (some of the signs were mispelled - badly) they obviously didn't know the proper medical term for a miscarriage if it came up and hit them in the face which was what I was going to do if they stopped me and the kids from going into the building._

They parted like the red sea. I went upstairs to the OB and signed a petition that instant to help them create a bubble zone around the clinic. When I told mom about the incident because her children were still upset, she told me that I should have decked the bitch because she went through the same thing trying to get to her dentist earlier that day!

The second incident that really p'o'ed me about them was the mormon missionairies that love going door to door. It was their third or fourth visit to my appartment building and I ran into them on the way out to get picked up by my <sarcastic> loving mother to have a d&C. They asked me in the most loving way why I was going to the hospital and I told them why. The two of them went into yet another tirade about how I was killing my baby. I pointed to my then 15mo daughter and tore into them about how why I was having the D&C was none of their business but if they must know, I had been bleeding since the day she was born and it hadn't stopped and if I didn't get it stopped, I was going to loose any and all reproductive capabilities! I also told them how dare they jump to such stupid conclusions and that they should be praying for my health because my daughter could loose her mother if the doctor's findings come up. Then I told them to get the hell off the property because I was going to go right to the landlord's office and they would be arrested for trespassing if they didn't.

Never saw two women in high heels run away so fast in my life.

BTW.. the d&c founds some placental tissue that had been left behind. Whether it was from my daughter or from another pregnancy, we'll never know.

About 8 years ago, a "women's clinic" (abortion clinic) in Vancouver got a huge bubble zone injunction against protestors. I called up that day and congratulated them. The receptionist was taken aback by my call, probably because she never had one like it.

If women don't have a choice about when and with who they will reproduce, why not just make us cattle again? Sell us to the highest bidder!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I've heard a few bad stories about PP, but nothing like the stories I've heard, and experiences that I've had, at Crisis Pregnancy Centers. My first experience was when I was 17, a Senior in high school, and two weeks late. They had me pee in a cup, admisistered a home pregnancy test, and made me watch a twenty minute video about the evils of abortion (which included footage of a "six week fetus, again, complete with arms, legs, and a fully formed head) before they would tell me the results of the test, which took no more than five minutes, probably more like two. I went because I was just POSITIVE I was pregnant and didn't want to be by myself when I found out. They told me that I wasn't pregnant and then proceeded to give me another twenty minute lecture about how my boyfriend didn't love me (he did and still does, just not in the same way), how God was already going to punish me for having sex and I could lessen the punishment by stopping, and told me that there was no protection from STDs and pregnancy and that 70% of all sexually active teenagers get AIDS. No lie. I backed out of the door before she was finished, so I have no idea how long that would have gone on.

Found out I was pregnant in college, at 19, at a non-profit women's health clinic much like PP. The PP in my town was closed the day I decided to go take the test and I wanted it done THEN. I'd already had a + hpt and wanted a blood test. The staff was very nice, made no suggestions as to what I should do. They gave me a stack of brochures a mile high, including a few for women friendly crisis pregnancy shelters, and never ONCE mentioned abortions. I knew that they did them there at the clinic, but they did not mention it. It was as good of an experience that one could expect given the circumstances.

Again with the crisis pregnancy center that advertised itself as a "women's health center". Late period, broke as a joke in Hawaii where HPTs cost about twenty bucks, and really scared. I saw a billboard and just pulled right into the parking lot. I called from a payphone outside of the building, it was in a high rise, and the woman told me they were a "women's health clinic" and I could come in any time for a free pregnancy test and counseling. There was a room with a desk and a phone, and another smaller room with a tv and VCR. You guessed it-- pee in a cup, watch video, get lectured, again. I skipped the lecture. Only this time, she REFUSED to tell me the results of the test until I finished watching the video.

I know that there are decent crisis pregnancy centers out there, but I have yet to come across any. I feel comfortable advising women to go to PP because there is at least a continuity of principles at work. I would love to see crisis centers that offered TRUE alternatives to abortion, not just "Don't kill your baby."


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Dear Mothra,
Your feelings are valid and I can see how you came to your conclusions based on the experiences you've had.
It's true that a decade ago, CPC's were very different than they are today. That's why those umbrella organizations were started....to curb the abuses that were putting CPC"s in a negative light. Overall, the movement has come to a realization in the last 10 years or so: that it's about the woman first. You can't help the baby without helping the mother. We have actually had a bad experience with the CPC down the street....we used to refer to them for ultrasound (we don't have a machine ourselves). But one time a girl came back crying because the ultrasound technician had lectured her. So we contracted with a non-sectarian, independent ultrasound service and now only refer to that other CPC in emergencies. And our director called and gently rebuked the technician.

It's good and important for us to know why and how you may have felt violated at centers.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think the prayer should be optional (for the client; the center volunteers can pray all they like!) and not a prerequisite for getting to see the test result.

Some of these women have nowhere else to go, and I don't think they should have to violate their own spiritual beliefs just because they can't afford to be tested at a doctor's office.

Other Christian organizations respect this - I've never been told I had to pray when I was getting food boxes and staying at Christian homeless shelters; only for the pg test...







:


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*...they didn't enough what a spontaneous abortion was and that they should look it up in a medical dictionary...they obviously didn't know the proper medical term for a miscarriage if it came up and hit them in the face....*








T

Reminds me of when I was 19 and ended up in the ER for a miscarriage (unplanned PG, I was only about 5 or 6 weeks along). My best friend's mother worked in the hospital (not as medical staff) and somehow found out that I was in there for "spontaneous abortion" and thought I'd had an abortion. She was very upset and tried to tell my friend not to hang out with me anymore.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I went to the local CPC recently because the midwives were giving me a run around and I was in tears.

I swear to god they were trying to convert me into not having an abortion - I was 14 weeks already! They questioned me intensely on my "abortion opinion" so I gave them the one that would make them happy and not my actual opinion which is any woman any time.

Did they help me? Nope. They "tried." They looked through their clothes for something for me and my son - nope, not in our sizes - and I walked out the door.

Some of their panflets were disgusting. And if they had turned on that video or lectured me, I would have told them off in a very loud and foul language. Subjecting a 19mo to their propaganda videos would have caused me to break their TV.

As it was, my son got fed sugar by them and so I let him run loose and they bitched at me for his destructive nature. Well, they shouldn't have given him sugar, now should they? *evilgrin* He almost broke their vcr/tv combo, their computer, and was going after everything else. Gotta love having an active toddler.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*







T

Reminds me of when I was 19 and ended up in the ER for a miscarriage (unplanned PG, I was only about 5 or 6 weeks along). My best friend's mother worked in the hospital (not as medical staff) and somehow found out that I was in there for "spontaneous abortion" and thought I'd had an abortion. She was very upset and tried to tell my friend not to hang out with me anymore.*
not that off topic. I told my cousins I had a spontaneous abortion and all they heard was "abortion" and went off on a handle about it all.

Then when I saw my mother again, she went nuts on me over it. How dare I describe a miscarriage like that. About how upset I had made my cousins and my aunt and grandma etc etc etc... And that it was just a miscarriage and I should forget about it because she had two
















She didn't pass fist sized clots with such force and velocity they landed at the other end of the room... So no, I won't forget about it.

So I get really pissed when people say I killed that baby. That baby just about killed me.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I swear to god they were trying to convert me into not having an abortion - I was 14 weeks already! They questioned me intensely on my "abortion opinion" so I gave them the one that would make them happy and not my actual opinion which is any woman any time.
They always asked me what my opinion of abortion was. I'd say "neutral." They would ask me what I meant by that, and I'd say "Well, _I'd_ never have one." But then they asked if I felt it was OK for others to do so. I just told them I would never have an abortion and that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted me to say that it wasn't OK for anyone.


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## smittenmom (Mar 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kama'aina mama_
*This is the part that honestly keeps scratching at my brain. Are they refering to the babies here? One must choose to be a Christian. So claiming those babies as members is alittle... well I don't know what but it's really sitting wrong with me.*
That's the part that keeps coming back to me, too. So, if those babies grow up and choose to be.. say.. Jewish or Muslim, are these people still glad that they "saved" them? Or only if they're Christians?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Suppose they become athiests, pagans or satanists?

I once read a book called the encylopedia of serial killers, or some such title, and it really went into detail about the killers' parents, and some of them were denied abortions. Hmmm...


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## weesej (Apr 19, 2003)

I have a very difficult time why anyone would use the term spontaneous abortion in our society. Abortion is a word with intense emotions attached for many many people. So why use the less well known, medical term when you will get flames when you could say miscarriage and have sympathy. It is just stirring the pot.

I was at my Drs today. I see a family Dr that does abortions. I overhear the receptionist on the phone say "well the spotting wasn't a period so you are too far along. You need to go downstate.......Well if you are further along you will still be charged the $150 consult....You can only go till 9 weeks you know." I am getting a sinking feeling in my stomach, then she says "Oh you want to come here for prenatal care, I thought you wanted to terminate" Hows that for a judgement.


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## honey (Nov 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Super Pickle_
*Dear Mothra,
Your feelings are valid and I can see how you came to your conclusions based on the experiences you've had.

It's good and important for us to know why and how you may have felt violated at centers.*
SP- I am pro-choice, but I wanted to just tell you how rare it is to see such thoughtful and appropriate responses from pro-life (anti-choice) posters around here. I am so impressed with you!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

I have a very difficult time why anyone would use the term spontaneous abortion in our society. Abortion is a word wioth intense emotions attached for many many people. So why use the less well known, medical term when you will get flames when you could say miscarriage and have sympathy. It is just stirring the pot.
and I am of a differing opinion. I believe that "miscarriage" sugar coats what happened. If people can barely bring themselves to offering sympathy to a woman who has lost a wanted pregnancy, why should we sugar coat it for them? It is a spontaneous abortion, unlike medical ones which are planned and may be done surgically or chemically.


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## marymom (Nov 24, 2001)

well ladies need support, not sympathy, no matter whether the abortion was spontaneous or deliberate,
it may just be a lack OF support that is a causative factor in a lady choosing to acquire an abortion...
Ive had pretty crappy experiences with PP and the PCPs
that said when I went with my 'reverse the ban on VBACs'(vaginal birth after cesarean), petition to the local abortion clinic,(it is a 'choice ' issue) they all signed it, after reading it, when I came to pick upo the petition the next day I got hassled by the Christians outside...I asked then about signing my petition and they said..."they wont sign it in there' I came out with a full page of signatures and said would you like to? I named other Christian mothers who are well known in our community as supporting the CPCs, they just looked at me, and they showed my 11 yr old son the bloody fetus stuff(pictures)- this just happened, I shouldve said something to them, like why are you doing that to my son, but he was cool about it, he was like...whats that, Im like, its what a fetus looks like before its a bebe -whatever...
needless to say I also took my petition about VBAC accross the street to the CPC, where noone signed it <rolleyes> even after I showed them where we had advertised in the Christian publication(the midwife I work with and myself) and where they had even done a WRITE UP on the petition and our work <arghghhhh> I guess they knew I had been accross the street? or maybe they will have it signed for me -they said they would think about it, but...why would you have to check with someone about signing a petition about BIRTH choices...
whatever,
so hey, if youhavent signed yet we also have an online version and ths is the last call weekend in case you havent seen my begging for petition siggies already...
http://www.petitiononline.com/choice/petition.html
~mary


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

OFF TOPIC

Mary, I just signed it!!!


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

OT:

I signed it too. Great work!


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

Planned Parenthood saved my life in high school. I had been sexually violated and felt so very bad about myself. I wanted to kill myself. Instead I just started having sex with any boy I could. Maybe someone would love me? An older girl at high school asked me what I was doing. I told her I just loved to screw. She took me to Planned Parenthood. The nurse pracitioner there spent most of the afternoon with me. She showed me my vulva, my clitoris, my vagina, my cervix. She talked to me about love and sex and responsibilty and taking care of oneself. That day at Planned Parenthood changed my life. I am forever indebted. It is only because of Planned Parenthood that I did not get accidently pregnant and get an abortion. I would have not been strong enough to deal with a pregnancy. I was too fragile. The NP started a support group for teens who had been molested/raped. The first meeting was just her and I. In three months there were 40 some kids there. Because of Planned Parenthood there were a room full of prevented abortions.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*T
If they really want to help, they can stop sending money to missionairies and start at home - take one single mother and help her get established. Help her find work, etc etc etc. Until they do that, I have no respect for the prolife groups. I don't even have to say christian because 90% of them are militant christians.*
You know, that's a huge mis-statement. I *volunteered* for a year at a Crisis Pregnancy Center. Do you want to know how much of my time was spent talking anyone out of an abortion? 1% MAYBE. I talked very very briefly with ONE person about her decision. That was IT.

You want to know how much time we spent driving moms to doctor's appointments, helping pregnant girls get on WIC, get their lives established, get jobs, get interviews, get healthcare, get clothes and diapers??? 95%! That other 4% of our time was spent giving pregnancy tests and supporting the girls as they cried or rejoiced in the results.

We *DID* help the moms in our area! We not only provided clothing (maternity clothes, and clothes for kids.... you bring back a box of small clothes we give you the next size for your kiddo)... we also hooked them up with a food bank that would give them bags of free groceries every week, and helped them with diapers, formula, breast pumps and more!

There *ARE* Christian organizations who are doing it right. It might not be all of them, but lets give credit where it's due.

I don't think Planned Parenthood helps you get jobs, clothing, food, and housing...







:

Oops, I see this has already been posted by others... ahh well, might as well reinforce the point


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## marymom (Nov 24, 2001)

Carmen, that is a great story, thaks for sharing.
and thanx for the OT comments ladies








I dont think the negative experiences at PP are about PP the organization but rather about the individuals that worked there, Im sure that was the case for me, because PP organizatin has awesome goals/objectives/values, IMO, in terms of supporting women.
Im not sure about PCPs, I think they vary greatly in specific objectives,
I DO know a few women who organize/manage them from a birth listserve I belong to and they are great supportive women, they are Christian, sure, but I am fine with whatever they want to believe, they dont seem to push it, becoming Christian is not their concern, providing support is, and just as PP provides support I think many of the PCPs sincerely attempt to do that and I consider their services often to be helpful...
I guess if Keys Mamma's very own partner called to share this with her then many must be about converting too...and Im not sure why that doesnt bug me more, because I dont believe in it really, but...it just doesnt bug me...<shrug shoulders>
but making mom's feel bad about what they did bugs me alot...
Showing my son stuff, well he sees stuff in wierd science books and medical stuff anyways, I think we just talked about it and it didnt seem to bother him, my opinion on abortion is that as long as its inside me I control it, as Ive grown older and better able to plan my life I prefer prevention strategies over treatment, in every aspect of my life...but...I dont presume to believe I have the right to make that choice for others, yet I dont presume I have the right to judge those who do presume to judge others either..
its such a concept to grapple ...
and...did Keys mamma say something about
A BABY BOTTLE? to collect donations? humph...so much for breastfeeding awareness... <GRIN>
~mary


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sheacoby_
*
I think women should have the option of seeing an ultrasound for sure but I can understand why one wouldn't want to. And I don't think that makes one any less informed.*
If I had been in that situation, it would have made a difference for me. Being pregnant, having an ultrasound, learning about fetal development and having a baby have really affected my views on whether I, personally, could have an abortion. (i.e. I used to think I could, now I don't think so.)

I would just like to see more honesty in the abortion debate. I wish the abortion rights folks would stop using euphemisms to downplay the realities abortion, and I wish the anti-abortion folks would stop the incendiary rhetoric and just give the facts.

But I suppose that's just wishful thinking.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

*They always asked me what my opinion of abortion was. I'd say "neutral." .*
same here. the other day the local "first _choice_ " center called and asked about my mother support group. They wanted to know the dates, times, etc. It is for pregnant and new moms ( like LLL but not just nursin)- and they wanted to know about my stance on abortion







: So I suppose that they don't get that it is a NEW mother support group, not NEW Abortionists group- whatever! I am SO PRO CHOICE IT







- guess they won't send mothers to my group now







:

As for the 161 New Christian thing on their newsletter- I have no clue. I guess I read it to mean they converted the women walking in there. I did not read it to mean the babies, but who the doodle knows with those people...


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*ha ha this free thinking woman got her first birth control pills and pap from planned parenthood








*
Me too! Planned Prenthood was my only affordable option.

and although I am a bit embarrassed to admit it, without those birth control pills I probably would not have made it into my 20's without getting pregnant. I just was not very responsible.

then , years later, when I WANTED to get pregnant and didn't have any health insurance, iwent to PP for a pregnancy test, which was positive, and the counselor was so happy that i was happy and pleased to be pregnant. they were completely supportive of my CHOICE to be pregnant and have a baby.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*
And does it bother anyone else that the supposed quote is attributed to someone whose name sounds African American? What does this say about this group's racial sensitivity/insensitivity, or the veiled assumption that they needed to "save" this poor (stupid) woman from the big bad PP people who would lie/misinform her?....pluulease.*
yeh, I noticed that.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by carmen veranda_
*Planned Parenthood saved my life in high school. I had been sexually violated and felt so very bad about myself. I wanted to kill myself. Instead I just started having sex with any boy I could. Maybe someone would love me? An older girl at high school asked me what I was doing. I told her I just loved to screw. She took me to Planned Parenthood. The nurse pracitioner there spent most of the afternoon with me. She showed me my vulva, my clitoris, my vagina, my cervix. She talked to me about love and sex and responsibilty and taking care of oneself. That day at Planned Parenthood changed my life. I am forever indebted. It is only because of Planned Parenthood that I did not get accidently pregnant and get an abortion. I would have not been strong enough to deal with a pregnancy. I was too fragile. The NP started a support group for teens who had been molested/raped. The first meeting was just her and I. In three months there were 40 some kids there. Because of Planned Parenthood there were a room full of prevented abortions.*
As a former, long-time PP volunteer (don't anymore 'cause my services are no longer needed in NYC -- I was an "escort", and it played out here as essentially an unarmed bodyguard, but they've moved somewhere that the protesters don't bother coming to as it isn't too visible and they've changed around their security), I just wanted to point out this post.

Hers wasn't the only experience like this. I know several people who had a similar thing happen.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Perhaps some Christian groups could start a health clinic that offers everything PP does, except for abortion referrals. I don't see it happening, though, because I doubt such a group would distribute birth control to unmarried teens.

PP also does things related to AIDS and other STDs - it's not just gyn, pregnancy and birth control. Where else is one supposed to go if they get raped and can't afford to go anywhere else for a test? (They can go to the ER but sometimes they are billed for it.







) I'm sure even a christian would rather go to PP than nowhere at all.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

Sorry wrong thread.


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:

But do they give the same congratulations to teens, single women, and poor women? Or do they take the classist approach and only support reproduction among those who are "fit"?
When I foud out I was pregnant with my son, I was 18. I went to PP with my mom to get a test. When the resulkts came back +, the nurse (could've been a volunteer, she was wearing scrubs, but who knows) asked me what I wanted to do. I said I planned to keep it, and she was really positive. She gave me a list of OBs in the area (our PP doesn't recieve enough funding to handle prenatal care) and wished me good luck. Said if I ever needed anything, call her, and if she didn't have it, baby clothes or whatever, she could find out where to get it.

Having him made me more prochoice than I ever was before. I had a very difficult pregnancy, and my life basically went to garbage during that whole time in my life. If I hadn't had a choice, I would've felt so trapped. If I couldn't have been able to focus on "I'm doing this because I want to, nobody's making me, if I don't want to I don't have to" during times when I DID feel trapped, then those negative feeling would've been the only thing I could've focused on. It would've changed everything. Right now, my son was my choice to have. I can't blame him for a thing, it was MY decision to have him. If I'd had no choice, I know I would feel completely different. Not that I wouldn't love my son, that's impossible, but when things get hard, it's easier to deal with things knowing how much I wanted him in all those hard times.

Little hard to explain, I hope at least someone got the point. I'm going to cut this off before I get even more rambling, if that's possible!


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by weesej_
*I have a very difficult time why anyone would use the term spontaneous abortion in our society. Abortion is a word with intense emotions attached for many many people. So why use the less well known, medical term when you will get flames when you could say miscarriage and have sympathy. It is just stirring the pot.
*
Well, like it or not it is the correct medical term... I'm not saying you are wrong for not liking it but I know some prefer to use medical terminology.

I have had nothing but wonderful experiences at PP over the years. I'm intensely thankful that they exist and for all that they have done for women over the years. Part of the reason I am considering furthering my education past CPM to CNM is so that I can work for PP someday.


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## weesej (Apr 19, 2003)

Well, like it or not it is the correct medical term... I'm not saying you are wrong for not liking it but I know some prefer to use medical terminology.

I know that. Lets do a simple test to see how well the term is accepted in society. Next time you are working with a woman who is loosing her pregnancy tell her "I'm sorry, but you are having a spontaneous abortion, your fetus is dead" It is medically correct, but incredibly abrasive wording. I think most moms told this would be incredibly offended. It is not the word used in common language and the word abortion has alot of emotion attached to it. To use that term with a picketer (who I do think was probably inappropriate) only serves to anger and increase tension rather than diffuse it.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Correct me if I am wrong, I don't have time to go back through the thread, but I think the person who was using it was using it to describe her own miscarriage. I certainly would not want to dictate how a woman recounts her own experience, nor would I judge her for terms she chooses to use. Obviously if I were talking to a client I would not use that term but if I were writing it in her chart or discussing it among birth professionals I would.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*
I know of two women who got abortions in their late first trimesters and thought it was a clump of cells. No, it's actually a miniature baby. Armed with this info., they may have made a different decision.*
This doesn't really make any sense to me. Should it make a difference to a woman if it "looks" like a baby??? Both a "clump of cells" and a "miniature baby" both still have the potential to be a baby outside the womb. I think that the affect of viewing an ultrasound on a woman's decision whether or not to abort has more to do with establishing a bond with the fetus. I know from my experience with having had an abortion (which I have never regretted) and my pregnancy with ds that the amount of bonding is VERY different between the two. I conciously blocked myself from bonding with the fetus I aborted, because I knew I was making the right decision.

In regards to some other posts, it is insulting to think that women would make a different decision about abortion if they only knew "all the facts." That totally belittles a woman's decision making process and assumes she is too ignorant to educate herself. And what exactly are "all the facts" that it is assumed women don't know?


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*My understanding is that not all of the offices operate with a sliding scale fee. You can blame that on our government-- no funding for those who wish to promote women's health!*
You can't blame that on the government, actually. It's not the government's reponsibility to fund private groups. If you want more offices to operate sliding-scale, send a big fat check to your local office with a note instructing them to use it for that purpose. PP depends on private donations for their funding, just like the pro-life pregnancy centers do. Frankly, I think it's an outrage that PP receives ANY federal funding at all. (And I would feel the same way if the government were funding pro-life pregnancy centers, too, even though I am pro-life.) It's simply not the government's responsiblity to fund abortions OR pregnancies.

(Creeps back to the diapering board from whence she wandered . . .)


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by HoneymoonBaby_
*(And I would feel the same way if the government were funding pro-life pregnancy centers, too, even though I am pro-life.)*
well, here in Florida, land of the Bush regime governorhood, we have a license plate you can purchase from the state and the money goes to CPC to promote adoption over abortion.







Do we have a pro-woman or pro-choice plate, NO!
And most CPC's are religious based, under the umbrella of a church and they are tax exempt. SO please don't say that CPC's don't get funding from the gov't. They do, in a round about manor.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

(And I would feel the same way if the government were funding pro-life pregnancy centers, too, even though I am pro-life.)
But the govt does fund pro-life pg centers.







What makes you think they don't? As long as they don't try to convert you to a specific religion, that is. And with "Federal funding for Religious Charities" they could do even that.

PP provides needed medical services. Of course that is something that should be helped by the govt. Just like my tax $ currently go to a plethora of things I don't support (to the tune of billions more than social programs).


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

PP provides needed medical services. Of course that is something that should be helped by the govt.
In my state, PP does have a govt grant to provide medical services, contraception and counseling to those who can't afford it. Maybe this is just in my state?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I alled every PP and cricis pg center in my area when I lost our first baby. I was basically told hey only give u/s to women who want to abort so they can "change their mind" and I, who was scared of losing her baby, was told to look elsewhere for help. (That was secular and Christian agencies...)


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

thats sad. I guess that is because they are not licensed to do u/s for medical purposes or diagnosis. Only a showing of what's in there.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

My dad got his vasectomy 20yrs ago at PP for 200.00

I wish they did that now!! I'd love that type of bc!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

They don't do that now?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Not that I can find now. The ones around us only refer to a urologist and they 1000+ to do it







:


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

The PP where I worked (about 7 years ago) did do vasectomies, but I think this is rare.

Having worked (first as a counselor/medical assistant and later as an RN) at several abortion clinics, I have a few things to add.

We NEVER told anyone that their pregnancy was cells, rice or a baby.We had info on fetal development available. If a patient asked me, "Is it a baby?" I usually would say that "if you think of it as a baby than that's what it is for you." This often led into a very important conversation. It doesn't matter if you are 5 weeks or 35 weeks, if you feel that you are carrying a baby than that must be honored, and it doesn't mean having an abortion is the wrong decision. I think that these conversations were very empowering for many women.

Now when I worked in Ohio, we were required by law to give out a brochure on fetal develpment. It had lots of beautiful, glossy pictures of fetuses at different states of development. All magnified a ridiculous number of times of course. It listed choice facts about thumb-sucking and such. Said nothing about brain or lung development. We were also required by law to do an ultrasound on every patient so that that we could "correctly date the pregnancy." This was of course a load of BS since any capable OB can reasonably date most pregnancies with a pelvic exam. It was a state mandated attempt to undermine the relationship between a woman and her health care provider and drive up the cost of abortions in order to make them even less accessible that they already are. We offered a look at the u/s screen to every patient (that was not mandated). Some wanted to look and some did not. The reality that I saw in my experience working in PP and other abortion clinics was that by the time most women made it into the door of the clinic, they were sure of their decision. That's not to say that they weren't sometimes incredibly sad, but they were usually sure. We provided very intensive one-on-one counseling to every patient, and I did occasionally send a patient home to think some more if she seemed particularly insecure in her decision.

Lastly, we had an incredible volunteer network, and did provide referrals for medical care, counseling services and social services.

Working for PP was a turning point in my life. I have never worked with a more loving, intelligent, compassionate group of women.

This was also a clinic which had lost an employee to a gunman a few months before I started. When you think about the services PP provides, please also remember the degree of risk assumed by those who choose to work there.

I worked for a few months for a for-profit abortion clinic. It was a terrible place and a terrible experience. The patients were given little in terms of info or counseling. It was an abortion mill. If I were choosing or recommending an abortion clinic for myself or a loved one I would suggest a PP clinic or other non-profit clinic. PP has national standards which include a patient's right to informed consent.

This is far from the OP. Sorry!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Why no more vasectomies? When I've been to PP I was always told that birth control should be an equal responsibility of men and women. Do they have to pay a doctor to do them or something?

What about after the abortion - is the patient offered the fetal remains so she can conduct her own ceremony, if she desires? With miscarriages, I hear many patients are denied this, and are not even allowed a look at the fetus.


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

We actually started offering vasectomies during the time I was there. It was a new service. I am not sure that vasectomies have ever been a commonly offered service at PPs. We did them laparascopically. This is pretty expensive, but with less risk and a quicker recovery time than other ways of doing the procedure. I think expense and risk are the probable reasons...maybe lack of demand too?

As far as the fetal tissue goes, I remember showing it to patients on occasion, but I don't remember anyone ever asking for it (though I'm sure some did). I think we were required by law to incinerate it because of the potential for the transmission of infectious disease. It was considered medical waste. This may differ state to state.

Please don't flame me for the above...not my policy. I just went through being denied the remains of my baby (m/c) at our local hospital so I understand why it would mean alot to some women to be able to take their little ones home.

I actually understand it much better now than I did during the time I worked at PP.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I think some ppl are afraid to call PP. My mom said that thye never told anyone where he had it done because everyone they knew referred to it as simlpy an abortion clinic...shows you how little they really knwe!

I went to a crisis pg center when I was applying for medicaid. I had to have a dr confirm I was pg. t was a wonderful place! So much education and so much love in one place. I'm not sure how they handled those seeking abortion though.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I had no idea that PP had anything to do with abortions until sometimes last year! Shows how much I know...but it also shows that abortion talk isn't the only thing people get. I've been going to PP since I was 15.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm not trying to totally bash PP, there are some good ones out there. But, there are two in CA (one in the Upland area and the other in the Rancho Cucamonga area) that offer ABSOLUTELY no abortion counseling- pre or post, which I think is awful.

Kristi


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

Kristi: I am really shocked to hear that there is no counseling. Do these clinics provide abortions? I actually thought that options counseling was a requirement of all clinics that are part of the Planned Parenthood Federation of American, but I may be mistaken. I will have to do some digging when I have a bit more time.

ETA: It's funny to me that some people don't know PP provides abortions...although come to think of it, not all PP clinics do.

When I worked there we were always concerned that no one realized that PP does things in addition to abortions.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Am I the only person in the whole world who has no clue what I am looking at when I see an ultrasound?? Seeing a 6 week(or even a 12 week) ultrasound picture does not turn me into a ball of mush (except for the heatbeat, that was the only thing I could tell!) So, I dont see how it is much of an evangelistic tool ?

PS, I signed the VBAC ban petition


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Ellies mom: yes they do provide abortions. This was about seven years ago, so perhaps things have changed since then. I found it shocking and horrible too.

Boysrus: I'm the same way! With ds1, I had an ultrasound at about 5mos, and got the picutures, and I can't tell what is what. LOL!

Kristi


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