# cut boy asking about whole boy



## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

this has not come up yet but the way my bestfriends son is looking at my son i know it is coming he got cut even tho i begged her not to do it she didnt care







: my 6 month old son is whole i just came back from visiting with her and her son the last 2 days noticed that he was different he is almost 6 i EC so when he seen him naked he would come and eye his penis i know if he asks i really dont know what to say but that his mom took him to the dr and she had the dr cut a peice off his penis when he was a baby........... truely i dont know what to say i want him to question her she wants more kids i want her to see the error in her choic talking dont do a thing has this come up what have you said or what would you say

...oh felt i should add just to get background on everything she had him cut because her dad wanted him to look like him i asked a million times how was he going to be seeing his penis she said she didnt know and didnt care because he was going to pay for it and it was not her money so she did it without batting a eye or a care for his pain or health so this is a really touchy subject with us i do talk pro about foreskin all the time trying to educate her praying it works even tho i did try my damnest with #1


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## Mamato3wild ponnie (Jan 6, 2007)

Well i'm not sure how to expalin that to a 6 y/o....but my first ds was circ'd...sorry i didn't know i was very young and uneducated on the matter...so here comes along 3rd child ds is not circ'd so i have a 10 y/o who is circ'd and bring home our new baby boy intact......so older ds is like what in the world..."mama what's up with his...ya know....uh..." so i had to explain everything to him and it was much easier because he was older and understood. My older 2 children are from my ex...who was circ'd and my current hubby is not circ'd...so i gently explained that we wanted new baby to look like his daddy? And then went form their. Maybe you can say something like that...it's the same thing...about why people are different colors and why some people have curly hair and or straight hair....that's the way God made us....just pray that he doesn't ask for a while longer...







:


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I would tell him to ask his mother







:

love and peace.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

While it can be a dicey thing talking to another child about such a thing, I think it _could_ be done by you.

One thing you can't say: "When you were born, your parents thought it was better to have the doctor cut the end off your penis, but now they know they shouldn't." Because that would be _very much_ untrue given the nonchalant way your friend views circumcision.

You could tell him: "When you were born, your parents wanted to cut the end off of your penis because THEY FEEL you should look like your daddy, and this happened to him when he was born." And let the chips fall where they may. It's factually true, and you haven't expressed your anti-circ feelings in that statement. And if they feel like they've been put on the defensive, well, *good*. It's up to them to own up to their actions.

It sure as heck prevents them from starting a conversation: "It looks better and it's cleaner when you have the end of your penis cut off." *gag, gag*


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## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamato3wild ponnie* 
Well i'm not sure how to expalin that to a 6 y/o....but my first ds was circ'd...sorry i didn't know i was very young and uneducated on the matter...so here comes along 3rd child ds is not circ'd so i have a 10 y/o who is circ'd and bring home our new baby boy intact......so older ds is like what in the world..."mama what's up with his...ya know....uh..." so i had to explain everything to him and it was much easier because he was older and understood. My older 2 children are from my ex...who was circ'd and my current hubby is not circ'd...so i gently explained that we wanted new baby to look like his daddy? And then went form their. Maybe you can say something like that...it's the same thing...about why people are different colors and why some people have curly hair and or straight hair....that's the way God made us....just pray that he doesn't ask for a while longer...







:

The problem with this is that that line of thinking is never right regardless of what side you are on. What will the circ'd boy do when he has children, circ them to look like him? The only way to end circ is to tell the truth.

Laura


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

Honestly?

I'd answer that some parents cut part of their baby's penis off when they are newborns, but we didn't do that because there's no need to. If he asks further questions about his own status, I'd say he should ask his mom why she did that to him - put the ball in her court.

And when he turns 18, give him the contact info for ARCLAW so he can sue.

- Kira


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

:

Make his mother answer some awkward questions.


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## laidbackmomto2 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think I'd be more neutral, to be honest (thinking of the child's feelings and such). I think I'd say something along the lines of "All baby boys' penis' are like this when they are born. Some parents decide to have an operation to change it. Maybe you should ask your mom about this." This would let the boy know that the intact penis is the default, that it's natural and normal. And that he had a OPERATION on his penis that his parents CHOSE for him.

I would imagine if he brought it up to him mom, it would go something like "Mom, why did I have an operation on my penis?". Let his mother field THAT one.

Who knows? Depending on the type of child he is (naturally talkative and inquisitive), he may come back to you one day and tell you what his mom said. You could then _gently_ correct any of the myths she may have throw his way.

Cindy

Lindsey (96/02/26)
Jason (00/06/08)


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laidbackmomto2* 
I think I'd be more neutral, to be honest (thinking of the child's feelings and such). I think I'd say something along the lines of "All baby boys' penis' are like this when they are born. Some parents decide to have an operation to change it. Maybe you should ask your mom about this." This would let the boy know that the intact penis is the default, that it's natural and normal. And that he had a OPERATION on his penis that his parents CHOSE for him.

Yep, I would do this too. I also don't give much judgment when I talk to ff'ed kids about breastfeeding. I find it very disrespectful, and really they are so young it's not like they are going to remember the information and utilize it in adulthood. It just confuses and upsets them.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae* 
The problem with this is that that line of thinking is never right regardless of what side you are on. What will the circ'd boy do when he has children, circ them to look like him? The only way to end circ is to tell the truth.

Laura

I couldn't agree more!
I understand that many moms on this board circ'd their boys and now would have given anything to take that back. And I also understand how hard it is to explain it to a little kid. BUT I really believe that this is _the only_ right way to explain it. Circ MUST be explained as a WRONG choice, as a wrong thing to do. "Looking like daddy" would just keep mutilation going. On the other hand, saying something among the lines that this wrong thing was done to your dady because his parents thought it was good for him and so we thought it was good for you as well, until we learned the truth and now we know that it's a very wrong thing to do to a baby and we're very very sorry we allowed that to happen to you...
It's hard, but then truth almost always is...


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yep, I would do this too. I also don't give much judgment when I talk to ff'ed kids about breastfeeding. I find it very disrespectful, and really they are so young it's not like they are going to remember the information and utilize it in adulthood. It just confuses and upsets them.


well, when you are 6 and you learn that your parents decided to cut a part of your genitals off you ARE going to remember the information and utilize it in adulthood. you absolutely ARE going to remember that!


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## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

If he asks you about your son, I'd say, "We didn't cut this piece off."
I would not say something like YOUR mom had a piece of YOUR penis cut off when you were a baby. If he asks about himself, I'd tell him to ask his mom.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

If I said anything other than "ask your mother," I would say something similar to what laidbackmomto2 suggested so the boy can develop his own feelings about it without feeling like you're judging his penis. I'll never forget when I was about that age and asked my neighbor (who was babysitting me) what abortion was. She was Catholic and 100% against abortion for any reason. But what she said was very neutral, simply that some people believed that a woman has a right to choose to end a pregnancy, while other people believe that doing so is killing the baby and is wrong. She phrased it better than that, but basically what she gave me was a starting point and something to think about.

He will come to his own conclusions, and I really doubt saying something that might make him feel bad about himself or insecure about his penis will make him an intactivist. Just give him a foundation, and in time, he'll know what to do with it.

Julia
dd 1


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## AllieFaye (Mar 7, 2007)

If it were me, I'd give the six year old just enough information to start thinking it over for himself.

"What's up with his penis?"
"Why, nothing at all. He's normal."
"But, uh, why does it look like _that._"
"That's the way normal penises look. All baby boys are born looking like that."

Let those mental wheels start turning, and let him ruminate over what happened to him. _Then,_ guide him to ask his mother, if he starts asking about himself. Then, when he comes back with the myths, the groundwork of what's normal has already been laid.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

ITA that I would mention that your son's penis is normal and looks just the way it's supposed to. I would have him ask his mother about his OWN penis though (to clarify what I said yesterday) if it came up.

Letting him know what a normal penis looks like is adequate, IMO, for his age and it shouldn't give him any horribly negative impressions about himself either. Age-appropriateness is very important when dealing with sensitive topics... especially with other people's kids!

love and peace.


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## Blarg (Oct 21, 2006)

"Your parents cut yours off."

If he asks why, tell him you don't know, and that he should ask them.

No sense in sugar coating it. And keeping it super-simple and accurate like this also leaves his parents no grounds for being upset with you.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae* 
The problem with this is that that line of thinking is never right regardless of what side you are on. What will the circ'd boy do when he has children, circ them to look like him? The only way to end circ is to tell the truth.

Laura

agree 100% i would never lie to this child his mom and me are very close grew up together i parent her kids as she does mine i have never said go ask your mom for anything if they come to me i answer it and they do look alike they both are mixed same color of skin, hair and eyes the penis is the only diffenrence so that is why he noticed it... i get asked if all 4 are mine (2 mine 2 her's)


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
agree 100% i would never lie to this child his mom and me are very close grew up together i parent her kids as she does mine i have never said go ask your mom for anything if they come to me i answer it and they do look alike they both are mixed same color of skin, hair and eyes the penis is the only diffenrence so that is why he noticed it... i get asked if all 4 are mine (2 mine 2 her's)

In that case I would be honest (but gentle) with him. If you're that close with his mom and her kids then it would be appropriate for you to gently educate him with the truth. I didn't realise that was the situation... honestly, I would say to go with your gut on this one since you know the situation better than any of us do







Best wishes if/when it comes up!

love and peace.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Please, be gentle with him. When my intact 6yo ds found out about circ, he was horrified. The look on his face was awful. I can only imagine how a cut boy would take the news.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
Please, be gentle with him. When my intact 6yo ds found out about circ, he was horrified. The look on his face was awful. I can only imagine how a cut boy would take the news.

i would be gentle my dd has already told him that his penis looks weird and different she is almost 5 and knows all about circ.

i just wanted to see if it has come up for others i wanted some tips never had to break it to a boy on this issue... i have a way of telling the truth i dont lie to kids so i wouldnt be able to look him in the face and lie about it


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

I totally understand how important it is to be gentle for this boy's sake. But sometimes it's so hard though. Not that long ago in the mall play area there was a mom with a boy about 4y.o. and a baby (not older than 2 months, I'd guess) sitting next to me. So she took a formula out of her bag, mixed it with water and gave her son to shake it. So he shook it while showing it to me and saying "milk". I couldn't help myself saying "No, it's not milk. It's formula". I hope they both (he and his mom) got the message that this is not something tiny babies supposed to eat...
yulia.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Except you don't know why that baby was being given the formula and his mum might be sensitive about it. Some of us really and truly don't make enough milk and any implied criticism, especially early on, like at 2 months and I would have gone and cried. Just something to be aware off.


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## jami77 (May 2, 2007)

Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner. My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised. We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves. But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice. A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Kira~* 
Honestly?

I'd answer that some parents cut part of their baby's penis off when they are newborns, but we didn't do that because there's no need to. If he asks further questions about his own status, I'd say he should ask his mom why she did that to him - put the ball in her court.

And when he turns 18, give him the contact info for ARCLAW so he can sue.

- Kira

AWESOME!!!

My BF and I had this talk last night her boy is cut, mine is whole. they just turned two so it is not immedite but it is not far down the road and she knows how STRONG I feel about the anti circ movement. I think it is good for both boys to see and understand it, e will know what so many boys go though and hopefully appreciate that we spared him, and her ds will be normalized to a whole penis from an early age. We both agreed to send the other to the others mama so no feelings are hurt.
Now if it is a random boy and I am not such good friends with their mama, WHOLE other ballgame!


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner. My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised. We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves. But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice. A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?









From the UA:

*We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of* crying it out, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, *routine infant medical circumcision*, or mandatory vaccinations. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled.

Did you not see this part, just wondering? If you had truley researched the topic you would see that non of those reasons hold any bearing. I will not go on my tangent about those bogus reasons just giving you a heads up.


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice.

Please read the UA here before posting again. Mothering does not allow posts supporting RIC.

Furthermore, while it is currently legal to mutilate baby boys in the United States, this certainly does not mean it is ethical, moral or that it does not violate several fundamental human rights.

Quote:

This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner.
You have been given so much misinformation, I am truly stunned. Please see:

http://www.cirp.org/library

for a complete rebutal of your above myths.

Quote:

My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised.
I'm truly sorry for him.







:

Quote:

We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves.
Comparing a cosmetic, and damaging surgery with no net medical benefits to taking a medication which may be required during pregnancy is irresponsible and inappropriate.

No baby boy consents to having the most sensitive part on his penis ripped up, crushed, clamped and then amputated. By forcing it on him, this violates his fundamental human right to bodily integrity. It permanently damages him, physically and sexually.

Quote:

But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice.

Forcing a violent, traumatic and medically unnecessary genital amputation on a baby boy when you'd never consider doing it to a baby girl is what is prejudicial.

Quote:

A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?








Without activists standing up for the rights of babies when the babys' own parents would force harm on them, this world would be in a worse state than it is now.

- Kira


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## jami77 (May 2, 2007)

Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner. My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised. We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves. But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice. A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner. My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised. We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves. But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice. A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?









All the things that you posted about are false.

1) Circ doesn't decrease the chance of UTIs. And furthermore, baby girls are three times more likely to have UTIs than boys, circed or uncirced. And besides, UTIs are easily treated with antibiotics.

2) Circ doesn't prevent the passing of any disease. That's why the infection rate for HPV is around 80%. If circ was so good at preventing the spread of STDs would the infection rate be that high?

3) Improper cleaning? You're so misinformed it's not even funny.

Anyway, what is confusing about telling a small boy who asks why his penis looks different from his friend, that it's because his parents made the decision to cut off part of his penis? Are you ashamed of what you chose to do to your son?


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

The penis belongs to the boy, NOT the parents. It is no one's choice but the boy and the man he will become. What parts can I cut off my daughter? None! Why?! Because it is mutilation! It is the same with boys. IT IS WRONG! IT IS MUTILATION! Boys deserve the same protection as girls!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
If you had truley researched the topic you would see that non of those reasons hold any bearing. I will not go on my tangent about those bogus reasons just giving you a heads up.









: That is so very true. I know you wanted best for your kid, but all the reasons that you have mentioned for circ-ing your son are, unfortunately, myths. History of circ is *masturbation prevention*. That is basically the only reason it has been done on the first place. *It has NO health benefits*. *It can have all sort of complications in your son's sexual life.* And even perfectly preformed circ *is still a life long damage*, as your son's glans are dry now (so he'll have to use lubricant in order to have more or less normal sex or for masturbation) and are loosing it's sensitivity more and more every passing day as it rubs against underwear. THE MOST SENSITIVE part of his penis has been removed (yes, you read it right, foreskin *is* the most sensitive part of the penis). So, how in the world can it be "definitely the parent's choice"?!







:
yulia.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
3) Improper cleaning? You're so misinformed it's not even funny.










There is nothing easier than cleaning an intact penis. Nothing! You (or anyone else for that matter) should NEVER ever retract it (not even a little bit). You just wipe/wash it as if it's a finger and that is all there is to it.
yulia.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
IT IS MUTILATION!

Not quite.

-The baby is being stripped and strapped down.
-His genitals get violated.

Does it sound like mutilation to you? It sure sounds like *sexual abuse at the very least* to me. But more like rape, really. The only difference is that rape victims usually don't go through even half of that agonizing pain like those poor babies do and rape victims usually still have their entire body afterwards.
yulia.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

I know that jami has violated some of the UA but I hope she is allowed to reply in this thread. I'm really curious as to what her response will be.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. (

Unfortunately, you are correct that it is still a legal "choice" parents can make. However, the whole point of choices is to make *good* ones. You didn't. Unless you are willing to learn from your mistake, there are better venues to revel in the selfishness/ignorance known as circumcision.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

How can it be a parent's choice to shape,cut,rip and hurt a baby? Babies are not showdogs. We do not own them. They are human beings who should have the rights of human beings.

What gives a parent right to alter children's genitals.

Because what you chose, your child will never experience life as nature meant him to experience. He and his partner will never have sexlife as nature intented them to have. Your child will carry the consequencies - dried,numb,discoloured glans,vericous veins,skintags, possibly hairy shaft..

How can you defend a choice like that? If you had become mother outside USA, you would probably even thought about circumcision.

It is sad that the Victorian obsession about the evils of masturbation is still hurting babies and robbing their possibility for normal life.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

jami77:

Welcome. If you stick around, you'll hopefully learn a lot about the severe ethical violation and severe life-long damaging effects and come to the logical conclusion that RIC (routine infant circumcision) is MGM (male genital mutilation). You'll also get the sense from all the members here that *isn't* the parents' choice, it's the male's choice, the owner of the body!

We do not judge, here. We educate. Staying silent makes the cycle of abuse (and it is abuse!) continue.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I'm going to leave jami77's post up because so far, posters have been relatively calm and respectful in their attempts to educate. PLEASE continue to respond in this way, as we have an opportunity here to share the truth about circumcision with someone who is new to our community and has, unfortunately, only been exposed to the myths surrounding this issue. I ask that you think about the way you are conveying your message before you hit 'Send' (you know I will only have to remove your post if you violate the UA!)

jami77, welcome to Mothering.com. Others beat me to it, but I will say again that we are an Attachment Parenting/Natural Family Living community. We uphold a position against circumcision because it is an excruciating, damaging cosmetic surgery which does lifelong harm to a child who does not consent to it. _It violates his human rights,_ his right to a whole, intact body.

I know that you did what you thought was best to protect him from future illness, but the things you said above are not true. I, too, used to believe those myths, since that was all I heard growing up in the United States. But I've learned the truth and now know that circumcision is wrong, as well as unnecessary.

Please read through the stickies at the top of the forum. I think you will begin to understand why Mothering.com takes this position.

This website may also be helpful as you begin your journey toward understanding.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Unfortunately, I don't think that jami77 will be back. Not many people have the carriage of facing such a horrible painful truth. As every mother she loves her baby and the pain of knowing how bad he got hurt because of her choice can be unbearable. For some people it's easier to just stay ignorant and pretend that nothing bad had happened, I guess. I personally just don't get people like that but I have met plenty of them.

I have checked her posts and there are just two of them. In her thread she isn't happy that her 6 weeks old can't fall asleep without a boob in his mouth and wouldn't take a pacifier







: . Honestly, I don't think this is a type of a mom who will want to learn the truth about her mistakes&#8230;no potential here, IMO&#8230;








yulia.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Be that as it may, let's refrain from casting suspicion and making assumptions. There is potential for everyone to learn a better way of parenting. I am quite sure I have been disabused of many notions since I first became a mother... I do hope that jami will rejoin the conversation.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
The penis belongs to the boy, NOT the parents. It is no one's choice but the boy and the man he will become. What parts can I cut off my daughter? None! Why?! Because it is mutilation! It is the same with boys. IT IS WRONG! IT IS MUTILATION! Boys deserve the same protection as girls!

















Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
All the things that you posted about are false.

1) Circ doesn't decrease the chance of UTIs. And furthermore, baby girls are three times more likely to have UTIs than boys, circed or uncirced. And besides, UTIs are easily treated with antibiotics.

2) Circ doesn't prevent the passing of any disease. That's why the infection rate for HPV is around 80%. If circ was so good at preventing the spread of STDs would the infection rate be that high?

3) Improper cleaning? You're so misinformed it's not even funny.

Anyway, what is confusing about telling a small boy who asks why his penis looks different from his friend, that it's because his parents made the decision to cut off part of his penis? Are you ashamed of what you chose to do to your son?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Kira~* 
Please read the UA here before posting again. Mothering does not allow posts supporting RIC.

Furthermore, while it is currently legal to mutilate baby boys in the United States, this certainly does not mean it is ethical, moral or that it does not violate several fundamental human rights.

You have been given so much misinformation, I am truly stunned. Please see:

http://www.cirp.org/library

for a complete rebutal of your above myths.

I'm truly sorry for him.







:

Comparing a cosmetic, and damaging surgery with no net medical benefits to taking a medication which may be required during pregnancy is irresponsible and inappropriate.

No baby boy consents to having the most sensitive part on his penis ripped up, crushed, clamped and then amputated. By forcing it on him, this violates his fundamental human right to bodily integrity. It permanently damages him, physically and sexually.

Forcing a violent, traumatic and medically unnecessary genital amputation on a baby boy when you'd never consider doing it to a baby girl is what is prejudicial.

Without activists standing up for the rights of babies when the babys' own parents would force harm on them, this world would be in a worse state than it is now.

- Kira


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 







: That is so very true. I know you wanted best for your kid, but all the reasons that you have mentioned for circ-ing your son are, unfortunately, myths. History of circ is *masturbation prevention*. That is basically the only reason it has been done on the first place. *It has NO health benefits*. *It can have all sort of complications in your son's sexual life.* And even perfectly preformed circ *is still a life long damage*, as your son's glans are dry now (so he'll have to use lubricant in order to have more or less normal sex or for masturbation) and are loosing it's sensitivity more and more every passing day as it rubs against underwear. THE MOST SENSITIVE part of his penis has been removed (yes, you read it right, foreskin *is* the most sensitive part of the penis). So, how in the world can it be "definitely the parent's choice"?!







:
yulia.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven* 
How can it be a parent's choice to shape,cut,rip and hurt a baby? Babies are not showdogs. We do not own them. They are human beings who should have the rights of human beings.

What gives a parent right to alter children's genitals.

Because what you chose, your child will never experience life as nature meant him to experience. He and his partner will never have sexlife as nature intented them to have. Your child will carry the consequencies - dried,numb,discoloured glans,vericous veins,skintags, possibly hairy shaft..

How can you defend a choice like that? If you had become mother outside USA, you would probably even thought about circumcision.

It is sad that the Victorian obsession about the evils of masturbation is still hurting babies and robbing their possibility for normal life.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Jami77:

I recommend educating yourself on the myths of circumcision. You can see all the stuff you posted debunked Here:http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

There are links available to talk on the topics.

And I agree that you are not educated on the care of the intact penis. 85% of the world is intact. Trust me, they aren't all running for circumcisions to aid them in being clean







Until the foreskin becomes retractable, all you need to do is wipe it like a finger...sure as hell beats out vaseline, gauze and penis manipulation that parents of circed children deal with. After that, intact care is as simple as "retract, rinse, replace." Seems to me the "room for error" is much higher on the circumcised side, what with infection risk and all that wound work.

It takes my husband just as much time to wash his penis/parts as me washing my vulva. TMI maybe, but there you have it...and, trust me, there is no "oh wait, let me make sure I put it back right" going on!


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
Not quite.

Yes, quite.

mutilate
2 entries found for mutilate.

Main Entry: mu·ti·late
Pronunciation: 'myü-t&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
1 : *to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect* <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2 : *to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of* : CRIPPLE


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllieFaye* 
If it were me, I'd give the six year old just enough information to start thinking it over for himself.

"What's up with his penis?"
"Why, nothing at all. He's normal."
"But, uh, why does it look like _that._"
"That's the way normal penises look. All baby boys are born looking like that."


I think this has been the best suggestion. It's gentle and accurate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
Please, be gentle with him. When my intact 6yo ds found out about circ, he was horrified. The look on his face was awful. I can only imagine how a cut boy would take the news.

I agree the child we are talking about is 6 and as much as some of us would love to put the mom in the hot seat that did this to him, he is the most important person in the discussion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice.

His body, His choice


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

here is my responds to my original question i have tried to talk to her and it is like talking to a wall she was in the room watching her son creep closser and closser as soon as he seen my ds was naked as he got closer his eyes were getting bigger and his mouth dropped open i was just waiting for him to ask but he chickened out... she did this to her boy even tho i tried to talk to her about it i dont even know if she thinks it is wrong or right to do it even now i dont she dont talk about it she shuts down that is the only hope i have is that she knows now it is wrong but this is what i was told when her ds was a nb "i dont care i am not the one paying for it if they want to pay for it then it is fine with me" i asked why do they want it done "my stepdad wants him to look like him" and i say when and what the hell is he doing naked around him? how is he going to see it? i got no answer but we were living together at the time she gave up on bf also it was #2 she went to 11 months with #1 ..... i will admit it she is very sibmissive at times me i dont do what i am told to do


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
Whether or not to circumcise a son is definitely the parent's choice. This website is suppose to advocate mothers, and this mother could be thinking about the increased risk of penile cancer, infections from improper cleaning or failure to replace the foreskin to its position, and the increased chances of her son transfering disease or UTI's to his future partner. My dh and I discussed this issue at length and yes, my ds is circumcised. We all make choices that can turn out to be detrimental to our kids, (like that glass of wine while pregnant, or taking a medication)and choices that perhaps they wouldn't choose for themselves. But alienating a friend, not to mention confusing a small boy, because they don't share your views seems to me a form of prejudice. A casual conversation between friends is all that is needed-"Your son saw my son's privates, and has questions. How can we explain?" Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies? You can be an advocate , supporter, activist for not curcumcising, but to judge everyone else?









i hope you are still here lurking about so here is my responds to this post please learn fact from lies they cant make money off of foreskin if there is none to make millions from...cleaning? sorry how hard is it for you to clean your clitoris? do you know that all bays start out with girl parts then grow and change in to a boy woman have a hood on their clit just like a man has a foreskin they both have a job to do and should not be messed with unless there is a problem as long as a baby is healthy they should be left as that...please dont match meds and wine with removing something that can never be put back...no sorry we all are not in this together if you seen my dd at the park and asked why she is missing her pinkie and i said well it has no use that i can see so it is beter so i had it cut off you would think i am crazy well we dont go around cutting things off out babys boy or girl they are healthy that is the way it should be if he wants it done then let him make this choice it is even beter to have it done when he is older parts are bigger less chance of taking off to much he goes under GE and then gets pain meds while he heals and the best part of it is that HE GOT TO CHOOSE TO HAVE THIS DONE TO HIMSELF.........................


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllieFaye* 
If it were me, I'd give the six year old just enough information to start thinking it over for himself.

"What's up with his penis?"
"Why, nothing at all. He's normal."
"But, uh, why does it look like _that._"
"That's the way normal penises look. All baby boys are born looking like that."

Let those mental wheels start turning, and let him ruminate over what happened to him. _Then,_ guide him to ask his mother, if he starts asking about himself. Then, when he comes back with the myths, the groundwork of what's normal has already been laid.

That is insensitive and awful and I hope that the OP dosen't take this advice. All that six year old boy needs is to get it in his head that a part of him isn't 'normal'.

I think the 'all baby boys are born looking like that' is honest and right on. I would add that some parents decide to have an operation after the babies born and send the kidlet to his mom for further questioning.

You dont want the kid to feel like some freak just to get your point and activism across. I really think telling little kids that this is "NORMAL" and he isn't uhh, "NORMAL" is really harmful. He'll come to that conclusion of what was done to him, eventually.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Jani77, many of us don't consider human rights to be the parents decision. Circ is a human rights violation. If this baby was a girl - the parents would be jailed.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I know this may sound like an extreme, but have you considered the possibility that he's been sexually abused. I say this because our minister's foster sons was beyond curious whenever he would go to another house that had a small child/baby. He'd lurk around diaper changes. Sadly, it escalated, and if he was ever left alone with one, he'd touch him.

I hope your experience is just his curiosity about the physical differences of the two penises and not him wanting your son sexually. Very sadly, parents must protect their children from multiple dangers in life.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap* 
I know this may sound like an extreme, but have you considered the possibility that he's been sexually abused...

Of course he was abused! He was circ'd...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

There is nothing unusual about little children being curious about naked bodies or babies, or even wanting to touch. Now if you were talking about a 10 year old being that curious and wanting to touch an infant in a sexual way then that is a totally different thing. There is nothing in the OP that indicates anything other than totally normal curiousity though.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

I'm torn- there's what ought to be said, and the usual candy-ass pander to the feelings of unrepentant circers, and somewhere in the middle of all his mess not just the feelings of ONE boy, but many- the intact ones the circ'd boy will speak to, extended family members, one day his own children.

I hope everyone _that_ concerned that the feelings of the circ'd boy are protected (thereby giving a pass to those who cut him) are equally as vigilant to protect the feelings of the intact boys out there in this society, that have heard everything from 'dirty' to 'shar-pei' and in-between.

I'd play it by ear; what else can you do? I wouldn't hide the crime for the perps (that's what's been keeping this abomination alive), but my words would be tempered by compassion. I can't say what I'd say. Kids are people like anybody else, and most have a low tolerance for adult bs. They can probably handle truth spoken kindly, more than the usual 'grownup voice' lies.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

Kids are people like anybody else, and most have a low tolerance for adult bs. They can probably handle truth spoken kindly, more than the usual 'grownup voice' lies.
ITA, which is why in general ( not knowing this particular child ) I think it's fine to say that the intact baby has a normal penis. I don't think the average 5-6 year old is going to automatically go OMG so that means MINE is abnormal. With all the adult associated assumptions of "abnormal".


----------



## AllieFaye (Mar 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
ITA, which is why in general ( not knowing this particular child ) I think it's fine to say that the intact baby has a normal penis. I don't think the average 5-6 year old is going to automatically go OMG so that means MINE is abnormal. With all the adult associated assumptions of "abnormal".

I agree. At some point, the circ'ed boy is going to find out that circ'ing is not 90% in the US anymore; only about 60% of boys his own age are. At some point, he's going to find out that 85% of the world population has not been circ'ed. At some point, he's going to find out that not circ'ing is the norm across the world. Why not make that moment an "aha" moment, instead of an "eeww" moment?

It's just as important that the intact boys hear that there is nothing wrong with them. They don't have "ugly" penises. Nothing was done to their perfectly healthy, normally-functioning tissue. Acting like intactness is the most natural, normal thing is what 85% of the world's mothers do. Why not American mothers as well?


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllieFaye* 
I agree. At some point, the circ'ed boy is going to find out that circ'ing is not 90% in the US anymore; only about 60% of boys his own age are. At some point, he's going to find out that 85% of the world population has not been circ'ed. At some point, he's going to find out that not circ'ing is the norm across the world. Why not make that moment an "aha" moment, instead of an "eeww" moment?

It's just as important that the intact boys hear that there is nothing wrong with them. They don't have "ugly" penises. Nothing was done to their perfectly healthy, normally-functioning tissue. Acting like intactness is the most natural, normal thing is what 85% of the world's mothers do. Why not American mothers as well?









:


----------



## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

I figured jami would run and hide. What a shame.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

I noticed in Jami's post that she has this line:

Quote:

Good grief, aren't we in this together, ladies?
In her post, she uses this line to question us jumping on other mother/parents for their decisions. However, maybe this line sheds a little light into the situation. If we REALLY are all in this together, does that not include the child/children as well? Are parenting decisions made by a little click on parents who are all in it together but not considering the children?

Am I making any sense here? Basically, Jami wonders why we are "abandoning" other moms who we are suppose to be "all in mothering together" with. However, she herself has forgotten the most important piece of the puzzle: the child.

The child should certainly be in on the decision to have a cosmetic surgery.


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
here is my responds to my original question i have tried to talk to her and it is like talking to a wall she was in the room watching her son creep closser and closser as soon as he seen my ds was naked as he got closer his eyes were getting bigger and his mouth dropped open i was just waiting for him to ask but he chickened out... she did this to her boy even tho i tried to talk to her about it i dont even know if she thinks it is wrong or right to do it even now i dont she dont talk about it she shuts down that is the only hope i have is that she knows now it is wrong but this is what i was told when her ds was a nb "i dont care i am not the one paying for it if they want to pay for it then it is fine with me" i asked why do they want it done "my stepdad wants him to look like him" and i say when and what the hell is he doing naked around him? how is he going to see it? i got no answer but we were living together at the time she gave up on bf also it was #2 she went to 11 months with #1 ..... i will admit it she is very sibmissive at times me i dont do what i am told to do

I would have offered to pay her NOT to.


----------



## jami77 (May 2, 2007)

To the "wolves"
on this page, I haven't replied as of yet b/c I have been busy being a "horrible" mother as some of you accused me of, and helping my husband with his mother's estate business, as she has just passed. You are all so sensitive to others!
And I did read the rules of posting; *its MY opinion*. The decision my husband and I made was not ROUTINE and if I hadn't stood by my decision would I have written it here? Some of your replies have contained nothing but venom and disdain.
When my friend said she found a website that agreed with many of my ideas about childrearing, I was so excited. I wasn't aware that to participate and be "accepted" you had to agree with everyone else, on every issue.
I might one day regret my decision, and yeah, my son might want to "sue" me as one of you suggested so kindly(again, about a woman you don't personally know). If he does, it will be between my son a I.
I am a nurse, I am educated, I did my research. I have seen first hand some things that led me to my decision, which I won't bother typing, b/c none of you would be receptive to listening to my different views.
And this will probably be my "THIRD" and last post because this is a sorority I don't think I want to be a part of. GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

1) we were not being insensitive. And we especially weren't being insensitive to your situation as we do not have ESP.

Quote:

I am a nurse, I am educated, I did my research. I have seen first hand some things that led me to my decision, which I won't bother typing, b/c none of you would be receptive to listening to my different views.
2) "different views?" more like lies and misconceptions. The facts are out there for whoever wants to read them. Is it harder to clean? no. Is it more prone to disease? no. Does circumcision hurt the boy? yes. Does the foreskin have many functions? yes. etcetc

I'd love to hear about some of your personal experiences so we can educate about the "problems." Many doctors think you are suppose to retract the foreskin before its time, which leads to infections. Perhaps some of your first hand experience was because of this. we would love to talk and educate about these facts.

You might want to ask yourself "why do I see these problems when the rest of the world does not have them." As an educated mom, as you state you are, you would be able to educate yourself in the proper care of the intact penis (which is VERY easy! much easier than gauze and blood and all that!). We could help you with this. Then you could protect your son both from genital mutilation and improper care.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority?







works for me.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
To the "wolves"
on this page, I haven't replied as of yet b/c I have been busy being a "horrible" mother as some of you accused me of, and helping my husband with his mother's estate business, as she has just passed. You are all so sensitive to others!
And I did read the rules of posting; *its MY opinion*. The decision my husband and I made was not ROUTINE and if I hadn't stood by my decision would I have written it here? Some of your replies have contained nothing but venom and disdain.
When my friend said she found a website that agreed with many of my ideas about childrearing, I was so excited. I wasn't aware that to participate and be "accepted" you had to agree with everyone else, on every issue.
I might one day regret my decision, and yeah, my son might want to "sue" me as one of you suggested so kindly(again, about a woman you don't personally know). If he does, it will be between my son a I.
I am a nurse, I am educated, I did my research. I have seen first hand some things that led me to my decision, which I won't bother typing, b/c none of you would be receptive to listening to my different views.
And this will probably be my "THIRD" and last post because this is a sorority I don't think I want to be a part of. GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.

Ok, sorry that your mother-in-law passed, not that I see what that has to do with the thread, how were we supposed to know that?

As for "things firsthand that you won't bother typing" you probably don't want to type them because you know they can and will be easily refuted.

If you have some evidence that is so compelling that lead you to circ and be for circing, you would say it.

People are "wolves" because they're against circ? Yet, you came into a forum called "The Case *Against* Circumcision". Were you expecting people to greet you with confetti and roll out the red carpet when you stated you liked cutting baby boys' penises? Come on.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority?







works for me.

I'm in!


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

As for "things firsthand that you won't bother typing" you probably don't want to type them because you know they can and will be easily refuted.

If you have some evidence that is so compelling that lead you to circ and be for circing, you would say it.
I agree with this. Same old same old when it comes to this topic. "I know a guy" "i saw a kid" "my brother's cousin's former roomate's girlfriend babysat this kid"....

etcetc.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Jami77, I'm sorry I said what I said about you. I had no right to assume why you didn't post; it was not my place to make this kind of comments (that you have no potential&#8230. I'm sorry. Now I feel very bad about it especially since I'm not sure if you read this apology of mine or not. If you do, I'd appreciate very much if you let me know you did.

jami77, I do believe that if you are a nurse you indeed could see some nasty things. However, I also do believe _with all my heart_ that most of them were exactly _because of doctors/nurses/child care workers ignorance on the issue of foreskin_.
Please read this post http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=129378 . This is a warning to parents of intact children. The truth is that 99% of doctors in the US are so uneducated on the issue that they would retract (or at least pull back to see how far it goes) foreskin LONG before it gets retractable on it's own. Even the slightest pull back is dangerous as it can create micro tears allowing infection in. THIS IS EXACTLY what usually cases the problem. Alot of doctors go beyond that being (I don't even have strong enough words to call it) _ridiculously ignorant and uneducated about intact penises_. They would actually suggest parents to retract and clean underneath the foreskin







:







: ! Poor babies!







Of course it leads to infections, scaring, etc (you name it!). While the rest of intact world (85% of the world is intact!) has only less than 1% of medically necessary circ rate, _in the US it's over 10%_!







: Do Americans have different penises?! Of course not, but they do have doctors/nurses/people that are way too ignorant and misinformed about the issue.

I'm from russia. A country where circ is (thanks god!) UNHEARD of. Almost all my friends/ex-co-workers have boys. And of course everyone had fathers, some have brothers, husbands, boyfriends; I have a father, brother, son, had ex-boyfriends, ex-husband who are intact. I SWEAR that before I came to the US at the age of 26 I have NEVER even heard about boys/guys having UTI or yeast infection on their penis. I have always thought that this is something that only women have to deal with and therefore, was envying men tremendously as I did have UTI and yeast problems in the past







. And we discussed this with my friends number of times and they also were under the same impression (and I repeat again that almost all of my friends/co-workers had sons).

just wanted to let you know...
yulia.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority?







works for me.

Can I be on the Board!!!

jami I am sorry for your loss but I can't really blame you for iggnorace, the whole medical field as a whole here in the states is faulty when it comes to circ and it is unfair to you, other profesionals, and helpless little boys and expecting families. I really hope that you might look into other med journals from overseas ( England would be a great start) to get a differing MEDICAL opinion, look, and prespective other than us crazy hippies trying to save all the forskins. ( which we will never stop doing!) I can understand if you a medically driven person, I used to be, but I have a different view of things now. I don't excpect you to make that change but PLEASE look into other journals and volumes to get a more full circle look and eduacation on this.
Just because you are taught a certain way doesn't make it right.







: Consider it a CEC


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

(how do you not hear about Marilyn Milos when you are in the nursing profession?







: I'm sorry, but I expect medical professionals to give this more thought than run-of-the-mill lay mom, and put on their critical-thinking caps.)

i was joking about the sorority; it's not a _club_ you get in by being one of the cool girls. it's not a 'hippie' thing. it's just not cutting off other people's genitals, no more no less. pretty reasonable standards, we have here.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
...other than us crazy hippies trying to save all the forskins...

I don't regard myself as a hippy at all (no offends to hippies







). "Thinking mother" would describe me much more accurately. As any other person I've done the whole bunch of mistakes during my still pretty short motherhood (ultrasounds, vaccinations with my first child, etc.). I regret about them deeply and I







myself for this nearly every day. I keep telling myself that I should have known better&#8230;but I didn't. But I'm learning something new every day and trying to be a better mom this way. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes, but it's important to continue learning (keeping open mind), to have courage to admit mistakes and try to make better choices from that point on...
yulia.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Oh For Crying Out Loud.

ALL NURSES AND DOCTORS ON THIS BOARD.

Please for the love all, give me 101 what is so different in American penises compared to rest of the world!

Please explain to me why nurses and doctors in USA see rotten foreskins, children in agony and sick and dying because they have normal genitals? Why this happens in USA but not anywhere else.

PLEASE, those who have medical degree and see all the children suffering due to normal genitals explain to me why the rest of the world do not have any of these 'nasty things'?

I'm sure that I hear the crickets chirping one more.

Everytime I ask this - suddenly the posters who claim that foreskin is the cause of all evil disappear.

funny that.

- A Wolf From Scandinavia -


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

I'm not a hippie either, lol.

I just consider genital mutilation for girls and boys barbaric, and it should be made illegal.

If you're a nurse _of course_ you see all the worst problems (apparently caused in the US by improper care - you wouldn't see it if you worked in Europe), after all, the vast majority that don't have a problem don't come to hospital, but I put it to you, if you were a nurse that worked in oncology, and saw all the women with breast cancer and nursed them through all the suffering and death that that entails, would you cut out your daughter's breast buds too, as a baby, to save her from all that and "because she won't remember it"?

If not, why not? What is so special about a foreskin that it has to be amputated at birth? At least the "infections" a boy gets on his genitals are the same as the ones a girl gets, and are curable, what would you cut off your daughter to prevent thrush and utis?

If you worked in an attorney's office (as someone on this board does) and saw all the lawsuits against hospitals for buried penis, botched circs, and all kinds of damage that circ causes (and is hushed up) would that have influenced your decision? How about speaking to the men who have been severely damaged (painful, tight, erections, hair on the shaft, severe scarring), and their partners?

A substantial number of men will never have children because of what their parents "chose", and you know what? Half the time the parent knows nothing of the damage, because by the time the child becomes a man, talking to his mother about his penis is a thing of the distant past. One day YOUR children may be suffering, as so many do, in silence - how do you feel about _that_?

You did your "research" but you weren't objective, you saw only the lies and myths which confirmed what you wanted to do anyway, because of cultural programming. No-one could read the research objectively and come away thinking that strapping a baby down, ripping, cutting, and crushing his flesh (without anaesthetic i might add) with the result of depriving a man of his whole genitals is a _good_ thing.

I also think it's amazing that you come to a forum called "The Case _Against_ Circumcision" make a pro-circ post and expect any kind of validation or understanding. I totally fail to see how attachment parenting can possibly include DE-taching part of the baby's body.

*A wolf from England* _GROWL_


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
I'm not a hippie either, lol.

I just consider genital mutilation for girls and boys barbaric, and it should be made illegal...









:


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## Ione (Jul 22, 2002)

Back to the OP...

Just one suggestion, whatever route you do go (if you do say anything more than "ask your mom"), please do NOT say "cut the tip of the penis off"--use the proper term for what is removed instead (foreskin).


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## mamasophy (Mar 15, 2007)

Actually in a baby the foreskin IS the tip of the penis - the glans and foreskin are fused and are essentially considered one structure.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven* 
Oh For Crying Out Loud.

ALL NURSES AND DOCTORS ON THIS BOARD.

Please for the love all, give me 101 what is so different in American penises compared to rest of the world!

Please explain to me why nurses and doctors in USA see rotten foreskins, children in agony and sick and dying because they have normal genitals? Why this happens in USA but not anywhere else.

PLEASE, those who have medical degree and see all the children suffering due to normal genitals explain to me why the rest of the world do not have any of these 'nasty things'?

I'm sure that I hear the crickets chirping one more.

Everytime I ask this - suddenly the posters who claim that foreskin is the cause of all evil disappear.

funny that.

- A Wolf From Scandinavia -

I'm not a nurse or a doctor, but I can answer your question...

This is why:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllieFaye* 
My son required neurosurgery last week. When I first saw him afterwards, I noticed that not only had he been forcibly retracted (the foreskin was red and inflamed,) but there were four tears in it, two on each side. The miraculous tissue has already healed the tearing. The redness is gone; it's back to it's normal appearance.

I had to learn how to cath him. The third time he was cathed in front of me, I watched the nurse retract to the glans, and I burst out sobbing







. I wish I had been an angry tigress, but I had gone without sleep for three days by that point. The first two times, the nurse on duty did a great job (and wasn't an American, co-incidence?) so I had my guard down. When it was time to do it myself, I did say firmly "Please don't push back the foreskin. I will not be doing that." The nurse complied, but reported ME to the doctor on duty. I was subsequently "counselled" as to the "proper care and function of the foreskin." I had to listen to that







in order to leave without leaving AMA. I did say my source of information was his pediatrician. Ahem. Let me get this out in a safe forum:















:































































:





















:






























When I cath him, he just looks at me nonchalantly, as if it's no big deal. When the American nurse cath'ed him, he screamed. Fortunately, he lives with ME, and now I can always insist on doing it myself. Now, time to write letters about the abusive ignorance of the pediatric specialists in a pediatric hospital.



















































This is from another thread posted just today.


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## Ione (Jul 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasophy* 
Actually in a baby the foreskin IS the tip of the penis - the glans and foreskin are fused and are essentially considered one structure.

Yes, but they are technically two different parts even though fused at first--they do not stay fused. Furthermore, my understanding of circ is that they do not (at least not usually) just cut off the tip of the foreskin that is not fused, but actually peel off and cut away the foreskin. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

The point is, however, that there is a very different impact on the child from saying--TO A YOUNG BOY (especially a circ'd boy who has never seen an intact penis before)--"cut off the tip of the penis" vs. "cut off the foreskin".

If there is not an accompanying in-depth explanation of anatomy (which IMO may not be appropriate when coming from a non-parent adult), the first is most likely much more traumatic than the second.

Just what kind of mental image do (generic) you think that the first will produce for a young boy such as the one in the OP, especially given his probable lack of knowledge of whole male anatomy?

There is no need to semantically (or otherwise) drive home the barbarism of the practice to an innocent bystander (who was also possibly a victim of the practice) at such a young age.

He didn't chose to do that, and is just a young, curious boy. And, the idea itself is horrifying enough without opening the door even wider to scary young-boy-imagining.

Do you see what I mean? (Of course, this is all when the answer is going to be one sentence or two. If a detailed explanation is going to be given, the phrasing might be less of an issue...)


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ione* 
Yes, but they are technically two different parts even though fused at first--they do not stay fused. Furthermore, my understanding of circ is that they do not (at least not usually) just cut off the tip of the foreskin that is not fused, but actually peel off and cut away the foreskin. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

The point is, however, that there is a very different impact on the child from saying--TO A YOUNG BOY (especially a circ'd boy who has never seen an intact penis before)--"cut off the tip of the penis" vs. "cut off the foreskin".

If there is not an accompanying in-depth explanation of anatomy (which IMO may not be appropriate when coming from a non-parent adult), the first is most likely much more traumatic than the second.

Just what kind of mental image do (generic) you think that the first will produce for a young boy such as the one in the OP, especially given his probable lack of knowledge of whole male anatomy?

There is no need to semantically (or otherwise) drive home the barbarism of the practice to an innocent bystander (who was also possibly a victim of the practice) at such a young age.

He didn't chose to do that, and is just a young, curious boy. And, the idea itself is horrifying enough without opening the door even wider to scary young-boy-imagining.

Do you see what I mean? (Of course, this is all when the answer is going to be one sentence or two. If a detailed explanation is going to be given, the phrasing might be less of an issue...)


Yes, he is a victim. BUT if we just 'wrap the whole thing in honey' for kids sake, they will just buy this "it's healthier and better and you got a good deal by getting it done to you as a baby" crap that parents will feed them. This way those boys will grow up and mutilate their kids and their parents will get away with this and never be held responsible for amputating a very important and the most sensitive part of their sons' penises.
It really is a very hard situation, indeed. But this child (and any other mutilated boy, for that matter) has to learn the truth vs. so common bs about circ. Only this can stop this crazy circle of mutilation, IMO.
Yulia.


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## Ione (Jul 22, 2002)

Yes, but when a child (not your own) asks, I still think that saying something simple is more than enough, and that at that age, there is no need to add to the horror.

IT IS HORRIFYING ENOUGH without adding inaccurate mental images (cutting off the glans or more).

Also, saying cut off the tip of the penis does not let the boy know that there is such a thing as a foreskin, and that all boys are normally born with one. (A circ'd man is not missing the tip of his penis, but his foreskin.)


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
I would have offered to pay her NOT to.

she didnt care if it was done or not done no amount of money would of stopped her

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
People are "wolves" because they're against circ? Yet, you came into a forum called "The Case *Against* Circumcision". Were you expecting people to greet you with confetti and roll out the red carpet when you stated you liked cutting baby boys' penises? Come on.





















































in my eyes if he grows up and *wants* to have it removed he can but *he can never get it back* and then he will be alseep and drugs so no pain and he can take care of himself let your child make their own choices

back to my op kids being kids my dd seen his penis asked me why it looks weird (never seeing a cut one) but cute




























i told her that his mom took him to the dc and they cut his foreskin off she already knew about cutting but now she wanted to see the video she knows i have watched them so we watched a video of it with no sound on i cant take the crying i know her she will speak if it is brought up she is a year younger but she is very past her age in smarts


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Quote:

I would have offered to pay her NOT to.
she didnt care if it was done or not done no amount of money would of stopped her
If she is so neutral to it, perhaps there is something she is not neutral to -- something she really wants -- that costs money. Perhaps an offer like this might have worked: "I will give you X amount of money towards Y that I know you really want if you refuse the circ."


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
If she is so neutral to it, perhaps there is something she is not neutral to -- something she really wants -- that costs money. Perhaps an offer like this might have worked: "I will give you X amount of money towards Y that I know you really want if you refuse the circ."

nope never she is just hate to say it stupid some times she earns the blond title but i hope the future ones will be different she had her dd and ds before i had my dd and ds and she has married a different person(dont know cut or natural) so i hope that this one is the only one who has to live with this but i will deal with that when it comes to that point part of me just prays she has girls but i will talk till i am blue in the face and keep going till i pray not does it again i hope seeing my son and knowing about it changes her thinking on it


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

I remember seeing a cut boy for the first time when I was 6. My brothers are intact and so are my best friends brothers, but this was a kid that my aunt was babysitting. When I first saw him I was horrified! I thought something was awfully wrong with him! it looked so much shorter than any of the ones I had seen before and red (this was a boy about 17 months). I asked what was wrong with him and my aunt said " oh he is circumsized and your brothers aren't" I was very confused and just said "oh". I had always heard about circumsision in church and thought that they just kind of scraped the front of the penis a little (like when you scrape your knee). I had no idea what a glans was until I was in high school and saw my (circumsized)boyfriend naked for the first time. That was awkward to say the least







. Then I really didn't know what to do with it because to tell you the truth I was very confused as to why there was nothing there to retract







(sorry, but I learned about sex from seeing farm animals and reading world book encyclopedia as my parents were not very talkative about it). And yeah, I figured it out pretty fast, but it was still weird.
Later on when my son was born I asked my brother how he felt about being left intact (part of my decision to leave my son intact) and he said "well it would have helped if someone had explained it too me instead of just leaving it (the topic that is) alone!" but that he is very glad he was left intact.

I think if I had to answer that question from any child mine, friends or others, I would say that "my son was born this way just like you were, but your parents decided they wanted the doctor to cut the cover part off of yours, if you want to know why you will have to ask them."


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## enstar780 (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae* 
The problem with this is that that line of thinking is never right regardless of what side you are on. What will the circ'd boy do when he has children, circ them to look like him? The only way to end circ is to tell the truth.

Laura

I agree. I think it is important that they know that cutting and altering another persons body parts is wrong. I would tell them the truth, that we know know that circumcision is wrong, that we now know better, but some people didnt know any better. We shouldnt make it seem as though there is nothing wrong with it, and have them grow up thinking its okay to cut off a part of another persons body to make them look like you is acceptable. People who did circumcise their children I would say made a mistake and didnt fully understand why what they were doing was wrong.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enstar780* 
I agree. I think it is important that they know that cutting and altering another persons body parts is wrong. I would tell them the truth, that we know know that circumcision is wrong, that we now know better, but some people didnt know any better. We shouldnt make it seem as though there is nothing wrong with it, and have them grow up thinking its okay to cut off a part of another persons body to make them look like you is acceptable. People who did circumcise their children I would say made a mistake and didnt fully understand why what they were doing was wrong.









:


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## mm72873 (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
I really doubt saying something that might make him feel bad about himself or insecure about his penis will make him an intactivist. Just give him a foundation, and in time, he'll know what to do with it.

Julia
dd 1









I agree....more lasting would be the negative comment about his penis "not being right".....I'd stay away from the politics at this age....and just say, "ask your mother." or something like, "all penises look different.".....


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mm72873* 
I agree....more lasting would be the negative comment about his penis "not being right".....I'd stay away from the politics at this age....and just say, "ask your mother." or something like, "all penises look different.".....

Yea, right. And his mom will feed him the whole load of crap of how it's better, healthier, cuter (girls like that, you'd be made fun of otherwise), etc. And this boy will go though this life (like most men do) believing this crap (as everyone naturally trusts his mom and believe that she would never allow anything bad to be done to him, so there _must_ be some really good reason for it) and mutilating his sons







: .
It's time to tell the truth! Period! This blunt, unsweetened, uncovered truth!


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## mm72873 (Mar 23, 2007)

Yes, but it's not your child to indoctrinate. I am a teacher and each child comes to school with their parent's set of beliefs, some I agree with some I don't. I believe very strongly against certain things, but it's not my child to educate. If another person told my child somehting on his body was "wrong" I would be absolutely livid.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mm72873* 
Yes, but it's not your child to indoctrinate. I am a teacher and each child comes to school with their parent's set of beliefs, some I agree with some I don't. I believe very strongly against certain things, but it's not my child to educate. If another person told my child somehting on his body was "wrong" I would be absolutely livid.

Sorry for being blunt but if you mutilated your child and I tell him the truth the last thing I'd care is you being livid! Don't you see, this is EXACTLY why this mutilation going on and on in circles, because people who know the truth don't say it minding thier own busuness or being too afraid to make other people feel bad/guilty/livid/etc...


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.

I like that one! I think this is the one I would go with.


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## mm72873 (Mar 23, 2007)

I see you feel strongly about this. I feel strongly about gay marriage rights, I feel strongly about ending the war, I feel strongly about Palestinian rights...and on and on and on. I would not go around trying to attack these issues by changing a KID's mind and making him feel bad about his body. You could start an parent education group, you could hand out leaflets.....but to make a child feel that his body is "damaged" for some irriversable mistake his parents made has life-long consequences.

Miriam


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus
What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
I like that one! I think this is the one I would go with.

Ditto. It's short, to the point. The only downside is the circumcising mom could _still_ fill her son's head w/ lies. It at least informs him of the way boys' penises look like at birth.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I've changed my mind. I'm feeling... uh, "feisty". I'd tell him:

This is how you and ALL boys look when they are born. Your mom and dad had the end of yours cut off. Ask your mom and dad what happened.

It's the truth and why should _you_ be scorned for telling him the truth about what happened to him by _their_ choice? If his parents freak, it's proof they feel they've got some explaining to do on WHY they did this to him (KWIM?)!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap* 
This is how you and ALL boys look when they are born. Your mom and dad had the end of yours cut off. Ask your mom and dad what happened...

This is how you and ALL boys look when they are born. Your mom and dad had the end of yours cut off because they like it nice and short. Ask your mom and dad...

Sorry, black humor. Couldn't help myself








...


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Yulia, there was an article in The Globe And Mail recently about clipping the end off of dogs ears and tails and how it seems unnecessary, and cruel. A few days later, a wonderfully logical reader wrote in to say how many of those who are against that, also circumcised their sons! I immediately thought that when I read the article.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jami77* 
To the "wolves"
on this page, I haven't replied as of yet b/c I have been busy being a "horrible" mother as some of you accused me of, and helping my husband with his mother's estate business, as she has just passed. You are all so sensitive to others!
And I did read the rules of posting; *its MY opinion*. The decision my husband and I made was not ROUTINE and if I hadn't stood by my decision would I have written it here? Some of your replies have contained nothing but venom and disdain.
When my friend said she found a website that agreed with many of my ideas about childrearing, I was so excited. I wasn't aware that to participate and be "accepted" you had to agree with everyone else, on every issue.
I might one day regret my decision, and yeah, my son might want to "sue" me as one of you suggested so kindly(again, about a woman you don't personally know). If he does, it will be between my son a I.
I am a nurse, I am educated, I did my research. I have seen first hand some things that led me to my decision, which I won't bother typing, b/c none of you would be receptive to listening to my different views.
And this will probably be my "THIRD" and last post because this is a sorority I don't think I want to be a part of. GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.

Many of the ideals espoused on Mothering.com take the time and effort of multiple people, such as an entire family eating healthy, or happen over a long period of time, such as raising a kid without spanking. Somethings, like breastfeeding, are a relationship between two people that may not always work out the way both people need. Circumcision is on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. Circumcision is a one time choice that does lifelong damage to many people, the boy who was circumcised, his future partners, and his future children. The parents gain absolutely nothing by having their son circumcised. In fact, no one gains anything. It isn't even neutral, it is simply a loss.

Infant circumcision should be illegal. Obviously, there are too many parents in the United States for whom the idea of personal freedoms and bodily integrity only applies to rational thinking adults.

~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority?







works for me.

Yeah, I know what I'm changing my location to.









ETA: Kxsiven gave me a better idea.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 
I would tell him to ask his mother







:

love and peace.









This. I don't have son, but if I did, and if someone who was pro-circ implied to my child that circ was better, and there was something wrong with how they looked, I'd be livid. I"d never discuss another child's penis with them. It's just not anyone but the parents' place to do that.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
This. I don't have son, but if I did, and if someone who was pro-circ implied to my child that circ was better, and there was something wrong with how they looked, I'd be livid. I"d never discuss another child's penis with them. It's just not anyone but the parents' place to do that.

if he brings it up we should lie, then? the difference is INTACT IS DEFAULT. if a pro-circ person tried to tell my kids it was better, they'd run screaming from the pervert. they _know_ about cutters, you see.

even if they shut up the adults, informed, intact children will be direct, i imagine. i teach my kids to be kind, but kids are kids.


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## mm72873 (Mar 23, 2007)

So let me get this right.....protecting a penis is more important than the child's self esteem and self image.

What I get is that it's more important to convince a child that their circ-penis is a horrible thing their parent did to them......and have them go through life feeling bad about something they could never have controlled to begin with.

If you are so concerened with the child's well being why does not the fact that they are children with feelings and delicate self-esteems not important?. I get the feeling that to disagree with any of you ladies is not an option......I too felt until now these posts were about being open to varied ways of parenting....but I see now some of you are very "fundamentalist" in your views about what is good parenting and what is bad parenting.....I'd say this attitude is very much similar to any maintream group I might encounter and also do not feel like continuing the conversation. Not many OPEN minds here, just rants and raves.

Miriam


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
if he brings it up we should lie, then? the difference is INTACT IS DEFAULT. if a pro-circ person tried to tell my kids it was better, they'd run screaming from the pervert. they _know_ about cutters, you see.

even if they shut up the adults, informed, intact children will be direct, i imagine. i teach my kids to be kind, but kids are kids.


You tell them to ask their parents. Some things are not appropriate to discuss with someone else's children.

And I try to teach my child NOT to be judgmental. but each to their own, I guess.

(I do realize kids will say stuff anyhow. I did, as a child, and got reprimanded, as I should have been, when what I said was inapropriate or mean or anything like that.)


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

You have noticed that this is "The Case *Against* Circumcision" haven't you?

No-one is going to want to try and give a small boy a complex about his genitals - BUT there is no way that he should be allowed to think that they are natural either - or for that matter that there is something "wrong" with the intact child he is commenting about.

His _parents altered his genitals_, and he should not be growing up thinking that it's a valid option - especially if he's asking about another person's child. Why should that person have to cover up what his parents did to him? If his parents do not want to explain, maybe they should have left him alone in the first place (especially, as in this case, if they already _knew_ what they were doing was wrong, and refused to listen).

There is also no point in trying to "protect" his feelings over much, you'll probably find that a well educated intact child will be somewhat more direct - and the circumcised one will easily find confirmatory information all over the internet.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

'open' to mutilating children's genitals, not so much.

i'm sorry that having a forum exist, where cutting off pieces of children's parts is not considered acceptable behavior, bothers some people so very, very much.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
'open' to mutilating children's genitals, not so much.

i'm sorry that having a forum exist, where cutting off pieces of children's parts is not considered acceptable behavior, bothers some people so very, very much.









:


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
if he brings it up we should lie, then? the difference is INTACT IS DEFAULT. if a pro-circ person tried to tell my kids it was better, they'd run screaming from the pervert. they _know_ about cutters, you see.

even if they shut up the adults, informed, intact children will be direct, i imagine. i teach my kids to be kind, but kids are kids.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
You have noticed that this is "The Case *Against* Circumcision" haven't you?

No-one is going to want to try and give a small boy a complex about his genitals - BUT there is no way that he should be allowed to think that they are natural either - or for that matter that there is something "wrong" with the intact child he is commenting about.

His _parents altered his genitals_, and he should not be growing up thinking that it's a valid option - especially if he's asking about another person's child. Why should that person have to cover up what his parents did to him? If his parents do not want to explain, maybe they should have left him alone in the first place (especially, as in this case, if they already _knew_ what they were doing was wrong, and refused to listen).

There is also no point in trying to "protect" his feelings over much, you'll probably find that a well educated intact child will be somewhat more direct - and the circumcised one will easily find confirmatory information all over the internet.

You don't get it. The other person simply shouldn't be discussing HIS genital with him. It's not your business.

At 6 years old, it is no one else's business to be talking to him about it. Even if he brings it up.

If he asks about your child, fine. Tell him your child was born that way. Heck, say all babies are. It's true, and you are speaking generally. If he asks why he is different, tell him to ask his parents. If he doesn't relate it to himself, then no reason to start talking about his penis.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

No I don't get it.

I'll never get it.

How anyone could do that to their child. It's not just _any_ child, it's her best friend's child, whom she fought hard to save, who she knows very well - and now he's about to start asking questions. It's not like she's talking to some random kid off the street. (Although I'd probably still tell him exactly what happens to _some_ children, without making it personal, since he's already asking).

His parents are probably going to lie to him, she cared about him enough to fight for him before he was born, why shouldn't she talk to him now? If he asks, why shouldn't he get the truth? Why should she refuse to say anything to him about circumcision because it will give his parents some awkward questions to answer?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

does anybody get that 'children are property' sense in this discussion (the same meme that gets other people's genitals cut in the first place)?

children are individuals, people with rights. if i have a relationship with a particular child, no one has the right to require me to lie to them about such a thing. i've already stated earlier in the conversation that the child's feelings are desperately important in this situation.

the parents who choose circumcision while fully informed? those are the feelings that have folks worried. let's at least be honest about _that_.


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## mm72873 (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
His _parents altered his genitals_, and he should not be growing up thinking that it's a valid option - ......maybe they should have left him alone in the first place

My point is simply who are YOU to decide what another child, not your own, should or should not grow up thinking?

Miriam


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
does anybody get that 'children are property' sense in this discussion (the same meme that gets other people's genitals cut in the first place)?

children are individuals, people with rights. if i have a relationship with a particular child, no one has the right to require me to lie to them about such a thing. i've already stated earlier in the conversation that the child's feelings are desperately important in this situation.

the parents who choose circumcision while fully informed? those are the feelings that have folks worried. let's at least be honest about _that_.


How is saying "talk to your mom" lying???


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I come from different culture so talking about genitals is not a tabu. Not even with kids. Genitals are just one part of the body, like ears or nose.

If a child comes to me with a question, I'll answer it age properly ofcourse. It is quite a difference when talking with 5 years old compared to 15 years old.

But I sure heck will say to a child that all are born with foreskins and why your parents decided to let doctors take it off from you - I have no idea, you should ask your parents.If a teenage boy came to ask - I would also inform him about restoring.

Children are smart. They notice things, they think. And they certainly should not be treated as some property we can shape,cut and mold however we want to.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mm72873* 
My point is simply who are YOU to decide what another child, not your own, should or should not grow up thinking?

Miriam

Because they're part of a wider society and not inside a bubble? Of course it's not up to me to "decide" what they "grow up thinking", but there again, a child's thinking is influenced by a lot more than what it is told by its parents. Plus, I don't think any child should grow up thinking that it's ok to cut pieces off another person's body, for any reason, just because they "own" them (which is basically what you are saying here).

Every time they leave their parent's sphere of influence they are taking in knowledge, are you trying to say that no other adult should impart any knowledge to a child because they might influence what they think?

Or is it _just_ because it's about circumcision that you feel so touchy - of course it is, you're on a board called "The Case Against Circumcision" and trying to defend preventing a child, who is asking what is "wrong" with an intact child, finding out what happened to him. Guess what? He _will_ find out, whether it is the OP who tells him, or an intact child laughing at him because he's missing part of his penis and he comes out with some lame excuse as to why his parents did it to him.

Well I come from a culture that's also repressed about talking about genitals, but not to that extent, sorry. If a kid asks me (or anyone else with an ounce of sense) about _anything_, they will get told the truth - as long as I know the answer - children are not stupid, and they get a massive sense of betrayal if they find out that someone they know well and trust has been lying to them.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mm72873* 
My point is simply who are YOU to decide what another child, not your own, should or should not grow up thinking?

Miriam

I can understand that, from a personal point of view, you may be the type of person who doesn't want to rock the boat or come close to pushing your ideas; however, to make a statement like the one quotes above is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Do you plan on being the only person (besides your husband) that influences the thinking of your children? If so, you better keep them in the house with no access to the outside world.

In addition, how can anyone effect change without looking to the younger generations?

Should a teacher not ask a child to recycle their soda can if the child's parents are nonrecyclers and think its a waste of time?

Should a neighbor not as a child to pick up their toys from the neighbors lawn if the parents feel a few toys isn't going to kill anyone?

I can think of thousands of examples here, but I think you get the point.


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## paula.c (Aug 22, 2006)

hiplease dont get offencive and jump all over me but I really dont see why having the fore skin removed is such a wrong choice I dont feel bad for the choice I made with me boys, I had tem done at borth and they see my sisters little boy naked and they dont really see or care about the difference I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better. I now many moms who have wished they cir years a go with there kids after finding that there little one has an issue and now due to medical issue it as to come off.

Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Read around this forum a little, and I don't think the question you ask, paula c., would be necessary. But here are some starting points:

1) The foreskin has FUNCTION! It is a sensitive part of the penis which protects the glands and aids in lubrication. (see the stickies and watch the video "the prepuce")

2) circumcision is painful

3) The medical benefits you speak of are myths. Proper care of the intact penis is necessary because forced retraction can cause infections. I dare say the people you know with "medical problems" with their foreskin probably are suffering (if indeed they are and this isn't another "i know a guy" lie) because of improper care.

4) The boy should have a CHOICE. It's HIS penis. HIS! HIS! WHO BETTER to chose between "Do I want the lubrication and protection the foreskin offers me or do I want to cut it off for 'medical reasons' with little proof?" than the owner of the penis?!!!!

This article is a good starting point on educating yourself about this topic:

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better.
God didn't make him different. You had a piece cut off of him. That would be YOU making him different, not God.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap* 







I've changed my mind. I'm feeling... uh, "feisty". I'd tell him:

This is how you and ALL boys look when they are born. Your mom and dad had the end of yours cut off. Ask your mom and dad what happened.

It's the truth and why should _you_ be scorned for telling him the truth about what happened to him by _their_ choice? If his parents freak, it's proof they feel they've got some explaining to do on WHY they did this to him (KWIM?)!









That is what I was going to say







I have NO problem getting it out there and watching parents squirm, they need to squirm and feel bad and question what they did. NONE of us want to make a kid uncomfortable, they had no part, which is the problem, but moms and dads should be!! ( uncomfartable)


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Yeah, I know what I'm changing my location to.









ETA: Kxsiven gave me a better idea.









I am joining ya!!


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula.c* 
hiplease dont get offencive and jump all over me but I really dont see why having the fore skin removed is such a wrong choice I dont feel bad for the choice I made with me boys, I had tem done at borth and they see my sisters little boy naked and they dont really see or care about the difference I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better. I now many moms who have wished they cir years a go with there kids after finding that there little one has an issue and now due to medical issue it as to come off.

Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.

Oh jesus. Are you you sure you're English? I expect this rhetoric from Americans but not Brits.

Can we remove your clitoral hood? Would you mind? It really won't make much of a difference. I promise.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

LOVE your Senior Titile by the way!!


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula.c* 
hiplease dont get offencive and jump all over me but I really dont see why having the fore skin removed is such a wrong choice I dont feel bad for the choice I made with me boys, I had tem done at borth and they see my sisters little boy naked and they dont really see or care about the difference I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better. I now many moms who have wished they cir years a go with there kids after finding that there little one has an issue and now due to medical issue it as to come off.

Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.

Since you are such a strong Christian look up Galatains 5:2

You must not have done a whole lot of deep researching, excatly WHAT health benifits do you know abou that we have missed> just wondering







:


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
Since you are such a strong Christian look up Galatains 5:2

You must not have done a whole lot of deep researching, excatly WHAT health benifits do you know abou that we have missed> just wondering







:

Watch, you know she's going to say penile cancer and UTIs.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
God didn't make him different. You had a piece cut off of him. That would be YOU making him different, not God.









:


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

If her kids are in England, I totally pity them.

Missing a crucial part of their penis AND all their friends will be intact and know what they're missing. Their friends will also know that none of the crazy "health reasons" are true, because everyone has a foreskin and knows that the "health reasons" just don't exist.

Your kids are going to grow up and bite you bigtime, lady. Better start preparing your excuses now for why you carried out a competely unnecessary operation on them when they were too young to resist, and why you reduced their sexual pleasure for no reason at all _in an almost completely intact culture_.

And I don't believe you know lots of mothers who are wishing they'd had it done at birth. That just doesn't happen over here, it's not even on the radar unless it's for a religious reason. One paper shows that about 3.8% of English boys end up being circ'd by their 15th birthday (just over 12,000 a year, most of which aren't necessary, it's less than 2% in Scandinavia)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/321/7264/792
you must be singularly unfortunate with your friends?


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula.c* 
Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.

England..you mean Great Britain.

Oh.

Please tell me what christian group in Europe supports circumcision. I have studied this issue for years and so far I have not been able to find any. (asking this all seriousness)

Suuuuuuuuure there are lot of moms in England who wish they had circumcised their son...right Daisy?
This truly was news to me.

As far as why we are upset?

You take an innocent,helpless baby. You strap the baby down and slice his genitals. Painfully. Removing the most sensitive part of his body.

Your son will experience the circumcision 'results' of his life due to your decission. He will carry scar tissue, his glans will be dry and numb because it is exposed. He will never experience normal sexlife.

That's for starters.

How would you feel if someone had removed part of your genitals when you were born?

---------------------------

(ps. Did I understood right?Am I getting visitors? Tea or coffee?)


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula.c* 
hiplease dont get offencive and jump all over me but I really dont see why having the fore skin removed is such a wrong choice I dont feel bad for the choice I made with me boys, I had tem done at borth and they see my sisters little boy naked and they dont really see or care about the difference I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better. I now many moms who have wished they cir years a go with there kids after finding that there little one has an issue and now due to medical issue it as to come off.

Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.


Paula,
here is a very good post "I'm pregnant"; some pregnant girl had posted it a while ago and she got TONS of responses with alot of good info and links. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=604463
Please read this thread, it'd be much faster then searching the same info spread all over the place. This post is a GREAT sorce of info.
Also you can see that foreskin is actually what protects against HIV http://www.cirp.org/news/healthday2007-03-05/ .
Hope you change your mind about circ once you learn the truth about it...
yulia.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula.c* 
hiplease dont get offencive and jump all over me but I really dont see why having the fore skin removed is such a wrong choice I dont feel bad for the choice I made with me boys, I had tem done at borth and they see my sisters little boy naked and they dont really see or care about the difference I tell them that we are all different God made us that way and it was a choice and we choce this choice a to us it was to help us ad them we feel it wass better. I now many moms who have wished they cir years a go with there kids after finding that there little one has an issue and now due to medical issue it as to come off.

Im just trying to understand why you are all so againts Im not judging im just wondering, its a toucy subject just like religin im not jewise but chrisitan and i did it for health reasons nothing more.

I've yet to meet anyone IRL who regretted leaving their son intact (not having his foreskin cut off) and I live in the US. The circumcision rate where I live in the US is less than 30%. I only have one friend who had her sons circumcised and her youngest son is 13 years old - she also wasn't given a choice in the matter - she was married to an abusive man who insisted it be done. She went with her youngest son to see it done (she wasn't allowed to go with her two older boys) and says that his screams still haunt her today, and that she regrets it very much.

My husband was very fortunate to have parents who left his genitals alone. He and I are both very grateful to them that they left this decision (whether or not to have cosmetic surgery performed on the most sensitive part of his body) up to HIM since it's HIS body. My husband has never had any infections or issues due to his foreskin and I, quite honestly, have no idea how a penis would even work without a foreskin since it is such an integral, important part of the penis.

love and peace.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven* 
He will carry scar tissue, his glans will be dry and numb because it is exposed. He will never experience normal sexlife...

that's assuming that your son circ was perfectly performed. if not, in addition to all above, he might be one of the unlucky men with tight or painful erections, hair on the shaft and much more...

by the way, did you know that circ started as cure for masturbation? yep, it's no fun to masturbate a *dry* (since circ'd men have difficulty masturbating or having sex without lubricant because moisturizing the glans is one of the foreskin's functions), *half sensitive* (since once exposed, the skin of the glans gets thick and rough and looses sensitivity due to being rubbed against underwear, similar to our feet's skin) *penis* the *most sensitive part of which--foreskin--was removed anyway...*
Catholic schools used to do it as a punishment to the boys who were caught masturbating. They would hold them and circ without any pain relieve







: &#8230;

I can only imagine how hard it's for you to learned the truth about what was done to your son(s). But since *it is the truth, it's still worth while learning*.
yulia.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
that's assuming that your son circ was perfectly performed. if not, in addition to all above, he might be one of the unlucky men with tight or painful erections, hair on the shaft and much more...


The 'perfect' circumcision doesn't exist. There are just greater & lesser degrees of harm (as far as 'too tight' & 'hair on the shaft' goes, I'd say those repercussions are more common than not).


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
The 'perfect' circumcision doesn't exist. There are just greater & lesser degrees of harm (as far as 'too tight' & 'hair on the shaft' goes, I'd say those repercussions are more common than not).

I didn't say 'perfect' circumcision, I said perfectly performed which can be done, but that still means alot of harm, just less than in circ with complications...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i know, i just meant that no matter how you slice it, you _will_ end up with 'complications', greater or lesser. too tight, bent, hairy shaft... hell, dry glans? tell me who had a circ who didn't get a dried-up glans







. kwim?

so many men and women don't even understand that these things aren't _normal_. (with sexual ignorance paraded as a virtue by a circ'd culture, it's not surprising.)

i'm not really arguing with you, just making a point.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
No I don't get it.

I'll never get it.

How anyone could do that to their child. It's not just _any_ child, it's her best friend's child, whom she fought hard to save, who she knows very well - and now he's about to start asking questions. It's not like she's talking to some random kid off the street. (Although I'd probably still tell him exactly what happens to _some_ children, without making it personal, since he's already asking).

His parents are probably going to lie to him, she cared about him enough to fight for him before he was born, why shouldn't she talk to him now? If he asks, why shouldn't he get the truth? Why should she refuse to say anything to him about circumcision because it will give his parents some awkward questions to answer?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven* 
I come from different culture so talking about genitals is not a tabu. Not even with kids. Genitals are just one part of the body, like ears or nose.

If a child comes to me with a question, I'll answer it age properly ofcourse. It is quite a difference when talking with 5 years old compared to 15 years old.

But I sure heck will say to a child that all are born with foreskins and why your parents decided to let doctors take it off from you - I have no idea, you should ask your parents.If a teenage boy came to ask - I would also inform him about restoring.

Children are smart. They notice things, they think. And they certainly should not be treated as some property we can shape,cut and mold however we want to.
























































































some people are actually so close that they parent each others kids without batting a eye that it is NOT their blood i look at her kids as my own always have always will i have NEVER yet said "go ask your mom"














i think if i said that they would look at me like i am nuts







: and KNOW something is wrong i posted this to talk to see if it had come up to others and see how they handled it I WILL SAY THIS TO WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF AND WHEN THIS COMES UP........ i WILL NOT LIE to this boy WE ARE ALL CREATED THE SAME and that is not how he was made there is no way i am going to tell him that is the way he was born i would NOT LIE TO HIM OR MY BLOOD DC how can you look at your child and lie to their face???? how cold are you?? i beleive that my childern are humans and i must and will treat them like they are equals to me not less









*WHY ARE PEOPLE WHO CUT, TORTURE, BREAK WHAT IS NOT BROKEN, TRY TO FIX WHAT IS 100% WORKING IN THIS PART OF MDC???? THIS IS FOR PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO DO THAT TO THEIR DC AND FOR THOSE WHO DID IT BUT NOW KNOW IT IS WRONG*







: sorry but this is just what i think and feel......................


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mm72873* 
So let me get this right.....protecting a penis is more important than the child's self esteem and self image.

What I get is that it's more important to convince a child that their circ-penis is a horrible thing their parent did to them......and have them go through life feeling bad about something they could never have controlled to begin with.

If you are so concerened with the child's well being why does not the fact that they are children with feelings and delicate self-esteems not important?. I get the feeling that to disagree with any of you ladies is not an option......I too felt until now these posts were about being open to varied ways of parenting....but I see now some of you are very "fundamentalist" in your views about what is good parenting and what is bad parenting.....I'd say this attitude is very much similar to any maintream group I might encounter and also do not feel like continuing the conversation. Not many OPEN minds here, just rants and raves.

Miriam

Have you considered that there in an inner knowing that abused children have that what they have experinced is a violation? It takes a lot of parental or social conditioning to get most kids to invalidate their inner knowing.

Perhaps _kindly_ and _comapssionately_, without unnecessary graphic detail, validating the truth of their mutilation would do more for their self-esteem than going along with the "it's all OK" line.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat*
You don't get it. The other person simply shouldn't be discussing HIS genital with him. It's not your business.

We're talking about discussing his _abuse_ with him. It's a pity that his parents chose to perpetrate that level of abuse on his genitals, but it's really not about the genitals. It's about the _violation_. He deserves to hear compassionate truth about it.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
We're talking about discussing his _abuse_ with him. It's a pity that his parents chose to perpetrate that level of abuse on his genitals, but it's really not about the genitals. It's about the _violation_. He deserves to hear compassionate truth about it.









Exactly!


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

well he was here this weekend now he is covering himself he see's my son's and i think he see's that his is not the same and is shy about asking i dont want to be the one to bring it up i want him to be the one to bring it up i let him know that it is fine and he dont need to hide (he covers his penis with both hands) before i hear it i was putting him to bathe


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
well he was here this weekend now he is covering himself he see's my son's and i think he see's that his is not the same and is shy about asking i dont want to be the one to bring it up i want him to be the one to bring it up i let him know that it is fine and he dont need to hide (he covers his penis with both hands) before i hear it i was putting him to bathe

I know you want him to bring it up, but maybe this is his way of bringing it up? Maybe you could casually ask him why he's hiding, especially since it sounds like he's never done it before. That might be the nudge he needs to actually voice his feelings...

love and peace.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I would be honest but gentle. I would never give him the line that all penises are different, it is true but that is NOT why his penis looks different than an intact one. You can spare his feelings without lying to him.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)




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## Margot Adler (Jun 2, 2007)

you need to be very carefull to make sure that neither of the boys feel that they are different. it will do no good at this point to let your friends son know that he is missing something. this has not come up for us yet, but i am dredding the idea that the day my son realizes that he is the only one in our family who is intact i may not be there to mitigate the responses of my pro-circ. family...


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