# Need advice re: spanking



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I have two nieces, one is 4 and one is 2.

Their father, who is my brother, is very pro-spanking, it's the only discipline he uses. His wife, my SIL doesn't spank, but she doesn't stop him from doing it.

The other night when we were visiting them, he spanked the 2 year old in front of everyone. My protest turned a 4 or 5 swat punishment into 2.5 swats, but I still felt sick.

I went to him after and tried to talk about how affected I was by what he had just done, and if he could try to keep himself from doing that in my and my children's presence, if at all. He rolled his eyes at me, launched into stories of other people he knows who spank in public, and it turned into





















with nothing being resolved.

My brother knows how I feel about spanking. We've had many discussions before. His reply is always the same. I have issues, I don't have to live with his kids 24/7, and to let him do what he sees fit. He always ends with, wait till both our kids are older, and then we'll see which form of discipline works.

He won't listen to any kind of reasoning about how his daughters' behavior has never changed from spanking, or that there might be another way to handle it.

I'm the only one in my immediate or extended family that doesn't spank, so he's got about 80 people patting him on the shoulder and supporting his way.

Has anyone else ever been in a situation like this? What did you do? Did the person spanking have a change of heart or reform? Any thoughts or advice are appreciated.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Sad to say, your brother probably isn't going to change his attitude and there's little you can say to change it. The bestyou can do is "lead by example".

But I would not permit him to spank in front of your children. Tell him either he stops that, or he doesn't come over anymore. Well, that is what I would do. He should respect your rules when in your house, period.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, I am in the same boat with my brother. I have finally figured out that I am just not going to be the person who changes my bro's mind. He feels that our relationship is competitive -- he feels that I have always been the one to do things "right" and that I veiw him as a "screw up." When I come down on him about *anything* he gets very defensive.

I can't be the one to intervene with my bro. but I *can* be there for my nephews. I can be the person in their life that they can count on for loving acceptance... the person who will hold them and tell them that "no, you don't deserve this."

So, that's what I'll do.


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Thank you for your replies.









Piglet, I agree, he's probably not going to change his mind by anything I say. I'm going to hope that my actions will speak louder and better than my words.

Mamaduck, do we have the same brother? They sound similar. That is excellent advice, to make sure that my nieces understand they don't deserve that kind of punishment. Thank you.


----------



## myrrhmaid (Aug 20, 2002)

I'm so sorry Alison!







I just wanted to say after years in therapy for being spanked, among other things in my family, that I learned that spanking is a cop out & an indulgence of a parent who doesn't have the proper self-control. I also learned that just watching or hearing another get spanked is just as abusive to the witness as it is to the person the offense is being commited against. Your brother is forging an unfortunate legacy with his children that if he is lucky his children will forgive him for when they grow up and not perpetuate upon their own children. Hopefully he will someway/day be enlightened to the emotional damage hitting a child does to them & be a responsible adult & parent them with the loving kindness every perfectly imperfect being deserves.


----------



## queen620 (Jun 9, 2002)

Okay, so I don't agree neccessarily with the way the spanking was done. But if I got this right you WERE in HIS HOUSE.
do I think it is wise to spank if front of other people, NO. But again you said you were visiting his house.

I do think it is very appropiate to ask that maybe he spank the child in another room; not b/c you were there, but because that will help minimize being humilitated in front of everyone. (The staunchest spankers I know, still take their child to a separate room. Because punishment is a private situation, that doesn't need to be viewed by everyone...spanking or timeout.)

When he is in your house or out in public with you I think it is very reasonable to expect him not to spank in your home.
Regina


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by queen620_
*Okay, so I don't agree neccessarily with the way the spanking was done. But if I got this right you WERE in HIS HOUSE. So yes he has the right/ability to spank in his own house.
*
Interesting position, but I think that if I wittness a person harming a child -- in any person's home including his own, it is perfectly appropriate to speak up about it.

A man doesn't have the "right/ability" to beat his wife in his own house, for instance....


----------



## queen620 (Jun 9, 2002)

Maybe "right" wasn't the correct word. The overall theme is as parents we have to make decisions, and I think by forcing the issue, especailly in his home the poster would be more likely to tune her out.

Wait and see what happens over time. Maybe her brother's kids will turn out just fine. I certainly did, and so have numerous other people. Does that mean it is okay, not neccessarily. Can other methods be used with just as good results...most likely.
Let's also remeber that even Dr. Sears concedes about spanking, and even says the safest way to do it is with a switch. also remember the poster said that he had lots of people "patting" him on the back. So maybe just being gentle with her kids, and reinforcing the idea that there are other ways aside from spanking.

And I am going to stop talking, b/c I know I have already been flamed for showing the opposing side to this matter.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

The overall theme is as parents we have to make decisions, and I think by forcing the issue, especailly in his home the poster would be more likely to tune her out.
I'm not going to "flame" you -- and I *do* think we agree that "forcing the issue" is not going to be productive in this situation.

But I also think that whose home they are in is irrlevent to the question of whether or not his behavior should be challenged, except maybe with regard to the fact that the children can't feel safe in their own home. We do not have certain privlages in our homes when it comes to the use of violence against each other.

Quote:

Wait and see what happens over time. Maybe her brother's kids will turn out just fine. I certainly did, and so have numerous other people.
This is pretty much the most common defense for spanking -- but it is problematical. So much is entangled in our feelings about the way we were raised, that it can be difficult or even impossible to admit that our parents might have been wrong with certain things. I know that for many many years I defended spanking by pointing out that "I turned out fine," and then one day I realized that I wasn't fine at all, and that it did affect me. I'm not a stupid or obtuse person, but the issue was not one I could see clearly for a long time because my ties and loyalty to my parents blurred my vision.

It could be that some people turn out "fine" inspite of frequent spankings. But it might be that they would be even better than "fine" if they hadn't been spanked.

And who can predict what child will be fine, and what child will be irrepairably harmed by it? Is it a risk worth taking? I don't feel comfortable with the "wait and see" approach when we are dealing with precious little people.

Quote:

Let's also remeber that even Dr. Sears concedes about spanking,
Dr. Sears is definately not my "guru" and does not define or direct my beliefs, but I do have a lot of respect for him. In "the discipline book" he spends 10 pages explaining why spanking is bad, harmful, ineffective, dangerous, etc... and then he states this on page 156:

_"By now you should realize that our position on spanking is clear: don't."_

Not exactly a consession.

But then he says,

_"We are also quite aware that regardless of our advice against spanking, some parents are going to spank their children. For these parents, the best we can hope for is to help them spankin a way that will be less abusive."_

Notice that he says "less abusive." Not "without abusing." But just "less abusive."

Quote:

and even says the safest way to do it is with a switch.
Nope. Dr. Sears does not say this -- not in "the discipline book." He says that a switch, paddle or open hand is less like to do damage than a wooden spoon or a closed fist. He is not advocating for a safe way to do it.


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Sorry I've been away for a while today.

Dear Myrhhmaid,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Quote:

_Originally posted by myrhhmaid_
*I also learned that just watching or hearing another get spanked is just as abusive to the witness as it is to the person the offense is being commited against.*
I feel this way too. It's just a bad situation, all the way around.

Quote:

*Your brother is forging an unfortunate legacy with his children that if he is lucky his children will forgive him for when they grow up and not perpetuate upon their own children. Hopefully he will someway/day be enlightened to the emotional damage hitting a child does to them & be a responsible adult & parent them with the loving kindness every perfectly imperfect being deserves.*
This is my hope as well. I'm sorry for what you went through when you were younger. I hope you have found/are finding ways to heal.









Quote:

_Originally posted by queen620_
*Okay, so I don't agree neccessarily with the way the spanking was done. But if I got this right you WERE in HIS HOUSE.
do I think it is wise to spank if front of other people, NO. But again you said you were visiting his house.

I do think it is very appropiate to ask that maybe he spank the child in another room; not b/c you were there, but because that will help minimize being humilitated in front of everyone. (The staunchest spankers I know, still take their child to a separate room. Because punishment is a private situation, that doesn't need to be viewed by everyone...spanking or timeout.)
*
It's true, we were in his house. And I agree, he could have gone to another room to do it, but we still would have been in the house, and we still would have heard the whole punishment. The whole 'punishing while there is company' idea seems wrong. His girls were worked up because my two were there, and things always get a little crazy, just because all four of them are very rambunctious. I like to think a little bit of grace could have been given.

I also feel like this:

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamaduck_
*Interesting position, but I think that if I wittness a person harming a child -- in any person's home including his own, it is perfectly appropriate to speak up about it.

A man doesn't have the "right/ability" to beat his wife in his own house, for instance....

And who can predict what child will be fine, and what child will be irrepairably harmed by it? Is it a risk worth taking? I don't feel comfortable with the "wait and see" approach when we are dealing with precious little people.
*

Quote:

_Originally posted by queen620_
*And I am going to stop talking, b/c I know I have already been flamed for showing the opposing side to this matter.*
Please, don't feel like you have to leave. I want this to be a balanced discussion. If you feel spanking has some value, I'd be interested in hearing it, as it would help me understand why my brother is doing what he's doing. I do want to try to understand why he is doing what he is doing. Does that make any sense? If you don't want to post anything else here, please feel free to PM me.

Quote:

_Originally posted by queen620_
*Wait and see what happens over time. Maybe her brother's kids will turn out just fine. I certainly did, and so have numerous other people. Does that mean it is okay, not neccessarily. Can other methods be used with just as good results...most likely.*
I don't feel like I can wait and see. I feel like I need to present the other methods now. If he chooses to discipline the way our parents chose to discipline us, my nieces will be receiving spankings when they are 17 and 18 years old.

Which is why I am trying to help him now. Not that any age is right in my mind for a spanking, but for a man to be hitting teenage girls is most certainly assault. In just about anyone's eyes.

I'm not trying to get emotional or debate about spankings. I do see both sides, even if I only agree with one side. Also, like I said in the op, many in my family do spank their children.

I know the topic of spanking has strong emotions on both sides, and I really don't want to start any kind of war.

I was just wondering if anyone else has been able to influence a spanker into seeing another side. And if so, how they did it.

Note: I've never read any of Dr. Sears stuff, so I can't contribute to that.


----------



## queen620 (Jun 9, 2002)

Alison74 thank you for the additional info in your last post. That certainly clears up most of what happened. And yes, it sounds like you have every right to warrant showing him/discussing other was to raise children. I thik it is VERY inappropiate to be spanking teenagers/preteens. For myself as a Christian most of the Christian stuff I read they talk about spanking is a very rarely used thing...ie to bring the end to direct confrontation of parental authority(please I don't want to get into an argument about this, I am just stating so others know where I am coming from.)

I do not think spanking is nor should it be a norm for punishment. I do know the one time I remeber my mom spanking me it was in this exact situation, and was a matter of my safety. So I guess I tend to look through "rose colored" glasses and think that everyone else parents like my mom. (Who yes I think even with this incident did not scar me for life. )

Just overall I think there are alot of other better predictors for good/bad parents aside from spanking. Personally, when it comes to all areas of parenting I try to think about how God is a "parent" to me, and then emulate that. For myself the more I learn about God I see how gracious, kind and longsuffering he is to me, and I want to redirect that to my children.

Mamaduck, it has been two years since I read the Discipline book, and yes I vaguely remember the ten reasons not to spank, but I was just appalled at him mentioning that using a switch would leave no major damage...maybe I read this in his book on christain parenting and childcare, or maybe I was so sleep deprived(had a colicky baby with 14mo) that I read that into it.
I have read so many comments on spanking or heard them from my friends and am horrified at the thought of using a spatula/wooden spoon vs open hand. At least with the open hand one would have some sense of how much it is hurting. and I just think that the "hands are for loving' and "objects" are for spanking' " is a nice sounding platitude, but is a load of crap! Let's face it kids know it is your hand that is holding the paddle







:

Sorry to be rambling, I am dealing with this in my own home between my dh and I. And although I really work hard not to spank sometimes I find myslef doing it when really frustrated/overworked/understaffed. I don't want to spank b/c I see that it could very easily become a "slippery slope." Like what do I do when the spanking doesn't work and that is the only form of discipline I have had in my parenting tool bag. For many the answer would be spank harder and more often/more consistently...see what I mean about a slippery slope to being really abusive?

Sincerely from a parent who is working on my many shortcomings,
Regina


----------



## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

Sorry to butt in here, I am mostly a lurker anyway. But I wanted to tell you, Regina, that it is brave of you to come and tell of your short-comings here and I personally feel like opposing/different views add to the discussions (not inflammatory, but respectful on both sides), so anyway, I think it's admirable that you are being yourself here.
Also, I wanted to point out one little detail about Dr. Sears- he says the exact thing you do about a spanking tool being no different than a hand and he says a parent should never use a spoon or their fist. Of course, like someone pointed out, he is not pro-spanking at all anyway. I actually just re-read that part of his book today. I am a non-spanker, but was skimming thru the Discipline Book to get some ideas on my almost 3 yr old.
ANyway, sorry to ramble, just wanted to drop in to say a few things.
Sara


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi Regina,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. I understand where you are coming from. I even agree, that if I had been raised where spanking was as rare as a blue moon, I might have a different view of it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by queen620_
*Just overall I think there are alot of other better predictors for good/bad parents aside from spanking. Personally, when it comes to all areas of parenting I try to think about how God is a "parent" to me, and then emulate that. For myself the more I learn about God I see how gracious, kind and longsuffering he is to me, and I want to redirect that to my children.*
This is a good thought.









I also think that one issue of parenting does not have to automatically lump us in the good/bad parent bin.

Don't feel like you have to put yourself down, none of us is perfect, and we are all learning. You sound like a loving, caring mother who wants the best for her children. I think that's great.


----------



## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

Quote:

but for a man to be hitting teenage girls is most certainly assault. In just about anyone's eyes.

Yes this is assault, but what is it about a grown man hitting a two year old girl that is not assualt.

Can a two year old girl defend herself?

I'm wondering what a child that young could do that would merit a smack


----------



## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

Alison can i ask what the girls get spanked for?


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi Mamitorres,

They mostly get spanked for having what he calls temper tantrums. Which means they cry or scream about not being able to do something, or be somewhere. My brother is pretty high strung, and crying grates on his nerves. He'll usually give them one warning to stop the crying, before he spanks.

In the case of the op, his 2 year old was running through the house with my two kids, and all of them were being pretty noisy. But they're all active, and they love to run, and shriek and all that. My brother asked all of them to stop, so I got them all calmed down, and focused on playing with puzzles.

A couple minutes later, she started running again, and screaming. He told her to stop, and she sassed him, and kept running. So he spanked her.

Just so you know, I don't think he's a horrible monster. This kind of reaction is ingrained in him, because it's how we grew up. But I have hope that if he can be presented with alternative ways, that he can change.

I like what myrhhmaid said earlier about spanking being done as a cop out, and as a result of not wanting to work on self control. This fits him. It's easier for him to give them a swat than to think about the reasons they are crying (i.e. over tired, over hungry, or just having a bad or sad moment).

Quote:

*Yes this is assault, but what is it about a grown man hitting a two year old girl that is not assualt.

Can a two year old girl defend herself?*
I agree, I think any kind of hitting is assault, regardless of age. And I wish that it wasn't considered okay, just because it's under the 'discipline' hat.


----------



## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

Thanks Alison for answering. That's pretty sad fro the children. It sounds quite normal behavior and age appropriate. I can understand how irritating and grating it is for your brother. I get frustrated with dd too but spanking her is out of the question.

A child needs time to be a child. She is only going to learn to fear her father. And also be afraid to use her voice. It really touches me because I was raised the same way "Children should be seen and not heard" and i was hit for the same thing my self esteem was really affected.


----------



## shine (Nov 20, 2001)

With regard to the original post:

Perhaps a short term solution would be to spend time with him and his children ONLY at YOUR house. And make it policy that he may not spank his kids at your house. And then be ready to work with the children in positive ways so that he doesn't feel like there is an expectation for him to "discipline" while he's there. In other words, you don't want him to feel like his hands are tied if he's uncomfortable with the behavior of his children. If you are actively parenting all of the children so that he doesn't feel the need to jump in, then he may see over time that there are other ways of handling the girls. I wouldn't rub that in his face though. If you do this, it would be well-advised to drop the discussion of spanking-as-discipline for a while. That way he won't feel like you're saying told-you-so. kwim? In the end your kindness and compassion toward him, from parent to parent, will go a long way to making your point understood. You can have empathy for him (I have a four year old myself and I know first-hand how tiresome the whining/screaming/power plays of the four year old can be.). Just let him know that you empathize with how tough parenting can be and how frustrating it can be when children disrespect what we're saying. Doesn't mean that you're agreeing with his methods, but just that you hear his frustration. He may be feeling pretty ineffectual too, inside, and his defensiveness shows that. No man (no person) wants to feel incompetant, especially as a parent. If he feels that his daughter's behavior reflects on him as a parent, he's going to have a particularly hard time with that. He needs to learn that his children have their own personalities and he just doesn't have control over other people's personalities. None of us do. We can direct, we can guide, we can manage some control over some behaviors, but we can't change the nature of a child. Active kids are active. They need a positive place to be active and guidance in the activity.

ok this has gone on too long







sorry

sandi


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Mamitorres,

















I know exactly what you mean. I'm sorry for what you had to experience, and I can so relate to the 'children should be seen and not heard' scenario. It's how we were raised as well.

Sandi, thank you for your thoughts. I see that me talking to him about why spanking may not be the only option is pointless. Leading by example is my only hope.

Quote:

_Originally posted by shine_
*Just let him know that you empathize with how tough parenting can be and how frustrating it can be when children disrespect what we're saying. Doesn't mean that you're agreeing with his methods, but just that you hear his frustration. He may be feeling pretty ineffectual too, inside, and his defensiveness shows that. No man (no person) wants to feel incompetant, especially as a parent. If he feels that his daughter's behavior reflects on him as a parent, he's going to have a particularly hard time with that. He needs to learn that his children have their own personalities and he just doesn't have control over other people's personalities. None of us do. We can direct, we can guide, we can manage some control over some behaviors, but we can't change the nature of a child. Active kids are active. They need a positive place to be active and guidance in the activity.*
This is great advice. Thank you.


----------



## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Also as far as the original post...I would not take my children to your brother's home anymore. He may come to your home with the understanding that hitting (or the softer more pallatable term spanking) is not allowed.

I think my dds would flip out if they saw another baby/child being spanked. It's just such a foreign idea to them that a loving parent would hit a child. It's not healthy for your children to witness that.

Actually, my 4 year old dd is aware that some children are spanked though she's never seen it. She has said to me before "mom, wouldn't that be so horrible if you spanked us?"

I too am baffled that hitting a wife or a teenage son/daughter is considered assault all the while spanking a baby or child is accepted and even encouraged!!


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi sparklemom,

I don't think my brother would spank in my house. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and hoping it was a 'my house, my rules' kind of situation. And that since just immediate family was there, he didn't even think. If he is in my house, usually there are people who are not family over (for birthdays, etc), so I think that would give him pause.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sparklemom_
*Actually, my 4 year old dd is aware that some children are spanked though she's never seen it. She has said to me before "mom, wouldn't that be so horrible if you spanked us?"
*
This is almost exactly what my 4 year old ds said after he saw the spanking. He's heard of spankings before, because my nieces talk about them all the time.









I was really sad that I had to sit down with my two and my brother's older dd and explain to them that I would never spank any of them, and that sometimes grownups make mistakes and do things they shouldn't.









Thanks for your thoughts.


----------

