# moms of larger families, does this ever bother you?



## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I came back from a playgroup with moms who, for the most part, have just one child each with a few moms of two mixed in. It seemed like the moms were all complaining about how they can't get anything done and their child doesn't take a long enough nap so they can have some down time. It irritated me since I have three little kids at home, two of whom no longer take naps, and I'm expecting again. I wanted to tell them how easy they have it that they have even a moment to themselves. I wanted to say how it's been weeks since I have gone anywhere by myself or had a moment alone. I keep seeing this over and over, moms with one child talking about how difficult it is while moms of 2,3,4 or more can't complain. I've heard it from SAHMs with children in school as well. I think about all the time I spend homeschooling and how relaxing it would be to have hours alone during the day to get things done with no one to take care then I hear them talk about how they are 'swamped'. It seems like the few times I've mentioned that I'm tired or overwhelmed I get unsympathetic looks and am told things like 'I'd be tired too if I was you' or 'then why are you having another'. I can't even voice a complaint but I look uncaring if I don't sympathize with the SAHMs of one who only get three hours a day to themselves.

Does anyone else feel this way?


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## Rowansmama (Feb 17, 2009)

Well, I'm a mom of one, soon to be two, so I'm not really who you're looking to hear from. But I did want to point out a couple of things that could explain this phenomenon.

One - many moms use complaining about how difficult it is as a way of bonding. It's something all mamas can relate to, no matter how few or how many little ones you have! It's kind of like complaining about husbands, or complaining about how your pants don't fit I guess.

Two - I'd say most moms of only one or two really do think they have it hard, only because they don't have anything to compare it to. If you only have the one, you don't really know what it's like to have three, so you feel like it's hard for you because that's your reference point. Does that make sense?

All that said, I really try not to complain at all about anything in a social setting. I like to be the positive one in the hopes that other people will follow my lead. I prefer to look on the bright side - "hey, I got a whole hour to myself today, which is better than yesterday!"

Maybe the next time you find this happening you could try to steer the conversation toward the more positive things about parenting. Perhaps if other people see that you, who have every right to feel overwhelmed and exhausted, can avoid complaining, they'll do the same!

(Of course, they may not. But it's worth a try







)


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

I'm a mom of three, soon to be four (all under 6), so I know how taxing it is--and I know what you mean about not being able to complain anymore. Since birth control is available in our times, there is the not-always-unspoken sentiment of "this was your choice, anyone could have told you it would be a challenge, so suck it up and deal with it." I'm always afraid that if I express my feelings (fatigue, overwhelm at times, etc.), I'm casting a disparaging shadow on all families of three or more.

However, I also agree with Rowansmama. But I also remember how hard it was when I had my first, and what an adjustment it was in my life. In fact, despite the fact that the physical amount of work required for my three kids is obviously a lot more than when I had just one, I DO have a lot more parenting experience and a lot more perspective. I know that things won't be like this forever, that each kid is different, that they're not "robots" who will be predictable every day and nap when I need them to, and so forth.

I think if you can remember back to those times when you thought it was so hard to have just one or two, you might find that you have more sympathy for those women instead of resentment. Plus, they probably think you're super mom since you have more kids and seem to be able to take care of so much more!


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

I think it is hard for all of us. Parenting is hard, period. It's rewarding and the best thing ever (in my opinion), but it's hard. With one child, with any number of kids. I have three now (5, 3 and 1) and I wouldn't dare say a mom with one child has it easier, because I remember having my first. You're learning everything for the first time and adjusting to new normal and it IS hard.

I guess what I don't understand is why it's such a big deal -- who has it harder? Why don't we all just bond as mothers and stop comparing. It's like the SAHM vs. WOHM comparison - being is mom is tough enough without other mom's judgements.

ETA: I just want to add that my sister has six children under five (5, 3, 2 and 8 month old triplets) and has no paid help (just my mom occasionally) and we are very close and talk a lot. Personally, I'd start to get irritated if every time I complained about being tired, she dismissed it and compared her life to mine.


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

I really and truly believe that one child is a LOT more work than two or more.
My kids spend a lot of time entertaining each other and playing together. But when I just had one, all he had was mom to keep him entertained. And he is even a very independent child who would play by himself a lot! So I can't imagine having a normal to needy child without any live-in playmates.

I also believe that complainers tend to run in groups. And once one person starts, the rest just follow and it's contagious. With my group of friends, we actively try to not complain about our husbands or children. We all have wonderful partners and children, there is no reason for us to have a whine fest whenever we talk to each other. Sure, we'll vent on occasion, but we do not spur each other on, instead we offer supportive words and actions. But not all groups are like that! It's really easy to get sucked into.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

2 thoughts of mine, I run a support group so I hear lots of complaining. First, yes as a mom of 3 I often feel like I can't say anything because "I did this to myself".







Second, being a mom of one is hard! When I look back now to when I only had one child, I did have so much more free time but without being able to compare it to what I do now with 3, it was all I could do at that point in my life. With the more children I have, the more organized I become, back then I was all over the place and I just didn't know it. I keep a cleaner house with 3 kids then I did with 1 because I have a whole system in place and what used to take me an entire day, only takes 30-60 minutes now. I have to be like this and do things a certain way or else I would never have a chance, it is just different then it was before.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tizzy* 
I really and truly believe that one child is a LOT more work than two or more.

I completely disagree with this.

Honestly, I don't think there is any "this is harder" in this argument, because everyone's entire situation is different. I do know that one child was much easier in many ways...but I also find that people are more understanding about some things, now that I "have my hands full". WOHMing was brutal, but so is SAHMing, in different ways.

The "this was your choice" argument for moms of "large" families like mine (four kids is _not_ "large", imo) drives me around the bend. Nobody made me get pregnant the first time, either.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Being the new mom of one baby (my first child) was much harder than being the mom of 4 closely-spaced kiddos. Truly.

Having a child was life changing. Everything was different, and I was learning as I went along. As I added more children to my family, it became easier each time. I'd learned new parenting skills, I'd figured out how to effectively deal with multiple-child issues. Things that baffled me when I was the mother of one baby became old hat. I've become a much better mother the more experience I have.


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## MamaChicken (Aug 21, 2006)

I have four kids, but there is an eight year gap when DS1 was an only child. I get more done now with 3 under 3 than I did when DS1 was little. It is mostly a matter of perspective, and partially a matter of personality of the kids. DS1 was a high-maintenance type of child. DD was much easier going, and the twins entertain each other a lot.

When DS1 was 3-4 years old, I used to complain ALOT about how difficult it was to get anything done. I didn't bake or really cook for years! Now, I bake 3-6 loaves of bread every Saturday, make yogurt each week, cook dinner every night, etc.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Eh. The older I get the more I realize that everyone has good days and bad days. We all have it harder-that's life.

Focus on the good stuff and stop comparing lemons to lemons.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

And no matter how many kids one has, we all have different lives that we lead. You can't JUST compare a mom of one to a mom of 4. The mom of 1 may have a nanny, a housekeeper, and a cook while the mom of 4 is a single mom and does everything herself. There are just too many variables.


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## kyndmamaof4 (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree with a lot of what's been said on both sides of this discussion.."I did this to myself"...etc yeah, yeah, yeah..whatev...I have 4 kids, one after the other..4 kids in 6 years







...just because I chose to have a larger family than some, doesn't mean that I can't have a bad day too...everyone needs time to vent and have a bit of sympathy for themselves. My DH's mom was one of 9 children, and my mother was one of 6...that seems hard to me...my goodness, could you imagine a family outing with 9 kids? Crap...just getting them all bathed and off to school sounds super crazy









I also have become a lot more efficient in the way I do things, and in some way it is easier...like a pp said multiple children entertain each other, and the things I worried about when I had 1 child aren't a big deal any more. I have extra eyes around while I'm showering, or am doing something that requires a lot of attention. When I had 1 kid, I was _never_ alone. Not in the bathroom, or the shower..I literally put my son in with me, so I could keep an eye on him..hehe..#1 was a slick one...no crib or gate could hold him by the time he was a year old. I don't have that problem anymore...my oldest is 10 and the youngest is 4...it gets easier I promise!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Just to throw another potential factor into the mix...

For years, if I said anything about things being difficult (they were _very_ difficult, not so much because of ds1, as because of my ex, but it was all one package - one child, one job, no car, and a husband who was more work than being a single mom came close to being), I'd frequently get the, "oh, but you're so lucky - you only have one". That started when ds1 was about four.

The thing is...by the time ds1 was four, I'd been ttc a sibling for three years. I heard that "you should try it with more than one" or "you're so lucky you only have to worry about one" pretty much until dd1 arrived. By that time, I'd been ttc for 8 years, pregnant four times, miscarried three times, and spent my whole pregnancy constantly working on not panicking. Being told how much harder my life would be if I were so unlucky as to have more children was like being punched in the face...not even a little bit kidding.

Some of the people who said those things knew what was going on in my life. A lot of them didn't - but they still liked to tell me how great I had it, with my only...who was never, ever, ever meant to be an only. (I've got nothing against onlies...but it wasn't what I wanted _at all_.)


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

No, it doesn't bother me. I guess at some point it did, but I remember having one child and it was incredibly difficult for me, and I think most things are harder with your first child, at least from what I gather from my own experience and talking to other moms. I think a lot of it has to do with experience, being a mom for almost 7 years and having four children, but some of it is just due to having several small children close in age that love eachother. Just a few weeks ago my dh took the boys out leaving me with just the baby so I could clean out my closet.







what a joke! there was no "Can you go find your brothers?" when she was re-sorting things for me. Nobody playing trains that she could go watch. I think for a lot of people, myself included, there is such a thing as too much "me" time. Or at least striving for too much, which tends to make people less flexible and prone to disappointment when you don't get however much time you desire/expect.


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## Catherine12 (May 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Just to throw another potential factor into the mix...

For years, if I said anything about things being difficult (they were _very_ difficult, not so much because of ds1, as because of my ex, but it was all one package - one child, one job, no car, and a husband who was more work than being a single mom came close to being), I'd frequently get the, "oh, but you're so lucky - you only have one". That started when ds1 was about four.

The thing is...by the time ds1 was four, I'd been ttc a sibling for three years. I heard that "you should try it with more than one" or "you're so lucky you only have to worry about one" pretty much until dd1 arrived. By that time, I'd been ttc for 8 years, pregnant four times, miscarried three times, and spent my whole pregnancy constantly working on not panicking. Being told how much harder my life would be if I were so unlucky as to have more children was like being punched in the face...not even a little bit kidding.


Wow, I would never tell someone they were "lucky to only have one." Not only is that rude - but it would be insulting to my younger kids.

OP, is it the other moms' complaining that bothers you, or not being able to complain yourself? You probably can't do anything about the former, but you might be able to improve the latter - even just by explaining how you feel to the group. I (if I got up the guts to do this) might say something like, "I love having x kids and I don't regret that decision, but sometimes it's challenging. It helps to just vent - I'm sure you know what I mean." Or if you feel like you need to be more explicit, "Sometimes I feel like I can't complain about the stresses of motherhood without people reminding me that I brought this on myself by having a large family. I love having a large family, but I don't think that should make me ineligible for venting about the challenges it brings. I'm not trying to one-up anyone here who has less kids than I do; parenting is challenging no matter how many kids you choose to have. I just want to be able to talk about the challenges I face without being judged or blamed."

I think part of the other moms' reaction is just defensiveness - maybe they feel that your complaints invalidate their own. I'm not saying this is a fair reaction. But it might help if you specifically assert that that's not what you're trying to do.


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

I don't get frustrated so much as somehow sad. I never got to have an only child - it was sort of a two for one deal. I didn't even get to enjoy DS's babyhood as by the time he was about 3 months old I was already on bedrest for the rest of my pregnancy with DD. Plus he had special needs that didn't let me enjoy his babyhood OR DD's babyhood. I really, really wish I could have had some one on one bonding time with an only. I really feel *I* missed out on a lot, and I tend to start feeling bad for myself. And as for the whole sleep deprivation thing, when you have two babies who are fighting sleep and no backup, there's no such thing as "nap when baby sleeps" - that's a joke. I would sometimes only get a couple of hours in catnaps a day sitting up, for days or weeks at a time, because there was no time when they were BOTH asleep. While I get that having a child is a BIG adjustment for moms of one kid, or having a new baby after a long break (when the older child is more self-sufficient or even able to help) I don't think they can understand my reality of just HOW hard it was. When you are hallucinating from lack of sleep and wondering how you can make it just one.more.day, like wondering if you will actually make it out of this alive... vs. the "inconveniences" of having a baby to look after (especially if it's a relatively easy baby) or if you have family to support you or a supportive father or whatever... I mean I don't think it's the same thing at all.

But then when I feel bad for myself I look at my friend who has a VERY sick baby who was born at the same time as my DS, and she is the most cheerful, grateful person I know despite having spent... oh, I dunno... literally years in the hospital at this point with her wonderful daughter. And I think she has it a lot worse than me, and I can't imagine *her* reality. Or my neighbor who has a deployed husband - having lived through deployment before (but not married) I can't imagine having to take care of ANY kids (she has two older ones and one sickie baby who also doesn't sleep) while having to worry your head off about whether or not your man is coming home to you. Or, or, or.

Some people have it "relatively" easy and complain. Some people have it REALLY hard and maintain a great attitude. I think we all do what we can, but when YOU yourself are not in a good place mentally (which I admit I'm not always) it makes you more bitter to hear other people complain and you start to compare situations and feel jealous. If you're coping well you will be in a place to be more supportive I think. When I start to get really bitter or sad I view that as a red flag for me to see what I need to improve on my situation - or, failing the ability to do that, attitude. A little self-love and self-care goes a long way I think.


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## greenemami (Nov 1, 2007)

I haven't read all the replies-

I am expecting my second child and have dd + dsd (nearly half the time) at home, so we are not a large family-but it does irritate me is when moms of more tell me what an easy time I have of it and how they can't imagine what I do all day, etc.-I think we all deal with our own situations and don't deserve to feel belittled or like we shouldnt' be able to vent/complain to other moms. I bet there are people who have it a lot harder than you too, but that doesn't mean you don't have the right to complain now and again, KWIM?


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends. It irks me sometimes that a mom who works a full time job will still send her child to day care even on the days she has off just to hang out and go shopping or get a nail appointment then complain in the same breath they never have time to do ANYTHING. I just kind of







. I feel far more sympathetic to the mom who has one child and sacrifices her free time to be more available.

For me, because I have 9 and my life completely revolves around this house and everything and everyone in it, sometimes I get tickled when I hear someone talk about the trouble they have with just one or two...but then for them it really is a struggle. I completely sympathize with that.

One day I saw a lady with her baby and she had two diaper bags, a separate car seat and a stroller. She literally looked like she was taking a trip. The only place she was walking into was the mall. I had all of mine with me that day and all I had was my sling. She looked at me and asked me how I did it and i told her she should travel more lightly. She got this look of







and was like







. I think she got it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Well, I have 3 kids, which I don't consider a large family but I did want to add one comment. You are talking as if all moms of more than 2 kids don't get time to themselves and that their lives are consumed by children. I think that is a choice. I make a choice that my ME time is of just as much importance as my time with the children. I go out by myself at least a few times a week or I would go nuts. Even if it is just to go wander the mall alone and pick up a few items or go to a movie with a friend it regenerates me. I know not everyone has a partner but I believe a lot of moms (especially AP moms) martyr themselves. That is not necessary to be a good parent IMO.


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

hmmm, I have lots of ideas but nothing solid to add. One was hard for me because I was bored. He was good, relatively easy and predictable, we had no extra money so I was at home a lot and lonely. Dd was much more of an adventure. The three little one that came next are a 'handful' but I have learned so much more about how to cope.

Maybe you don't know all the details of their lives and what they get done in a day. Perhaps they wahm and keep a sparkling clean house and are always fully fluffed and buffed themselves which I think is a taxing amount of work. (This isn't meant to be cheeky, just to give them the benefit of the doubt.)

I think it comes back to looking to the right person when you need to let off steam and pick a sympathetic ear. The other women are just bonding and would be truly overwhelmed at what you accomplish in a day.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Maybe it feels like you're telling them not to complain by "one-upping" them? There's nothing more annoying than the person who responds to venting with the equivalent of "you should be grateful you have it so easy!"

That said, I'd never whine to a mama of many about my lack of down time.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends. It irks me sometimes that a mom who works a full time job will still send her child to day care even on the days she has off just to hang out and go shopping or get a nail appointment then complain in the same breath they never have time to do ANYTHING.

Maybe that mom works for my cousin's boss, who is a stickler about all employees looking perfectly groomed and perfectly dressed at all times, if said employees want to keep their jobs.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Ummmm..no. I am using a specific example from personal experience.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

To answer the first question, no it wouldn't bother me. Each person is entitled to their own experience. I can't imagine the ladies' complaints were a slight on you. No need to try to one up them.

I had a very difficult time with my first two babies. I just never seemed to be able to find the right daily rythym. With three and four, we never missed a beat. They were no more trouble at all. With 3 or more little ones, things are logistically more difficult but IME day to day life is much easier now that we have 4.

Mothering is a hard job but very rewarding no matter how many children you have.


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## hergrace (Oct 9, 2003)

I never intended to have more than 2 kids and nearly only had 1 because he was, and continues to be, so challenging. I am such a small family oriented person that the idea that people would actually choose to have more than 2 kids always bends my mind. I think you are all amazing!!!!

OP: Personally, I would get irked by comments that I didn't have a right to vent about a rough day or even a rough period of my life simply because I had chosen a certain path. I tend to get different sorts of comments because triplets don't usually look like a choice, and I do get irritated by the people who think that they have no right to complain about their one kid when they see me with my four.

I usually try to take the "I'd be tired if I were you" kind of comments as a form of sympathy. I find that people who are overwhelmed with one or two kids (and I was one, so I totally empathize) just can't grasp the kinds of changes that go into making life possible with more, so they don't have enough understanding to empathize.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Well, I have 3 kids, which I don't consider a large family but I did want to add one comment. You are talking as if all moms of more than 2 kids don't get time to themselves and that their lives are consumed by children. I think that is a choice. I make a choice that my ME time is of just as much importance as my time with the children. I go out by myself at least a few times a week or I would go nuts. Even if it is just to go wander the mall alone and pick up a few items or go to a movie with a friend it regenerates me. I know not everyone has a partner but I believe a lot of moms (especially AP moms) martyr themselves. That is not necessary to be a good parent IMO.

I'm just talking as a mom of three whose military husband is frequently gone for periods of time that have exceeded a year. Try being alone with three kids under five for months on end. You don't know much of anyone nearby because you just moved for the fourth time in as many years, your nearest family member lives more than a thousand miles away, and even though you have posted want ads and put up flyers everywhere you still have yet to find a babysitter. You can "think it's a choice" to spend all my time with my children and not "go out by myself at least a few times a week" but not everyone is lucky enough to have the option to get out. I can't express how much I would enjoy getting out to "wander the mall" but I just don't get to. Even when DH is home I can seldom leave since he has to stay nearby in case he's called in. Plus, he's in training and needs time in the evenings to study.

Not all attachment parents are martyrs, as you say, some of us just don't have the luxury of time that you seem to.


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## Theia (Oct 30, 2007)

I only read a few of the replies.... but I'll just add that we all have our challenges, and each of our lives are very different because of it. I'm a single mom of one, and because of my personal circumstances there is a lot more to deal with than what one might assume. I agree that we should not try to play the "oh I've got it worse" card because we each only have our own experiences that we actually know. It doesn't matter what is more difficult because in reality there is no way to measure this unless you factor in everything.

Is parenting more than one child more difficult than parenting 2,3 or 4? I'm sure it is. But what about the joys of parenting 2,3, or 10? Each of us has made the choice to parent the number of children we are (not to be insensitive to those with angels) and comparison isn't helpful in any manner. What is helpful is to show compassion, and to not take it personally. I like the idea of the poster who suggested turning the conversation into a positive direction. If a mom of a single child complains, it's valid in her world. You can always say, "You should have seen DC1 and DC3 together this morning, it was so adorable when....."


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## Soul-O (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
I'm just talking as a mom of three whose military husband is frequently gone for periods of time that have exceeded a year. Try being alone with three kids under five for months on end. You don't know much of anyone nearby because you just moved for the fourth time in as many years, your nearest family member lives more than a thousand miles away, and even though you have posted want ads and put up flyers everywhere you still have yet to find a babysitter. You can "think it's a choice" to spend all my time with my children and not "go out by myself at least a few times a week" but not everyone is lucky enough to have the option to get out. I can't express how much I would enjoy getting out to "wander the mall" but I just don't get to. Even when DH is home I can seldom leave since he has to stay nearby in case he's called in. Plus, he's in training and needs time in the evenings to study.

Not all attachment parents are martyrs, as you say, some of us just don't have the luxury of time that you seem to.

ITA. I'm also a military spouse, with four boys ranging in age from 10 to 2, very few friends nearby (and no family around either), and my DH is deployed. The only reason I have any alone time is that I was able to find a part time sitter who comes to my home two mornings per week so that I can get out for doctor appointments, grocery shopping etc. (through SitterCity, which is now a free service for military). I constantly hear the "you have your hands full" and "how do you do it?" types of comments, which get to be pretty irritating because I both enjoy my kids and am managing quite well. I also find that having a larger-than-average family is somewhat isolating because I'm always busy with either the kids or household cleaning/management and thus do not have many socialization opportunities. I try to take it all in stride and remember that being able to have so many kids is a blessing in and of itself.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tizzy* 
I really and truly believe that one child is a LOT more work than two or more.
My kids spend a lot of time entertaining each other and playing together. But when I just had one, all he had was mom to keep him entertained. And he is even a very independent child who would play by himself a lot! So I can't imagine having a normal to needy child without any live-in playmates.

I also believe that complainers tend to run in groups. And once one person starts, the rest just follow and it's contagious. With my group of friends, we actively try to not complain about our husbands or children. We all have wonderful partners and children, there is no reason for us to have a whine fest whenever we talk to each other. Sure, we'll vent on occasion, but we do not spur each other on, instead we offer supportive words and actions. But not all groups are like that! It's really easy to get sucked into.

I agree with this. I grew up in a family of 11 and honestly, I felt it was easier with more kids. My parents often said the same thing. Especially as the 1st set gets older, they are able to babysit while the parents go on dates for example.

Having one kid is killing me. DD and I can't stay at home for more than an hour before we want to go at each other's throats.

I also think you should either get in there and complain away or recognize that 1 kid might be harder than all your kids combined. I've seen many temperaments...and some kids I wouldn't wish on even the strongest mamas!


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## Theia (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
I agree with this. I grew up in a family of 11 and honestly, I felt it was easier with more kids. My parents often said the same thing. Especially as the 1st set gets older, they are able to babysit while the parents go on dates for example.

Having one kid is killing me. DD and I can't stay at home for more than an hour before we want to go at each other's throats.

I also think you should either get in there and complain away or recognize that 1 kid might be harder than all your kids combined. I've seen many temperaments...and some kids I wouldn't wish on even the strongest mamas!









Thank you for that perspective. I feel bad sometimes if I complain because I am a mom of 1. I always assume that it is more difficult with many. And I'm sure for a time it is. But it is hard being my DD's everything all the time too, and the only way I can get a break is for her to nap (which I don't really count as a break cuz I have to be quiet and can't do things that I want or need to as a result), or hire a babysitter. Otherwise it's all me all the time. Not to derail the thread, I just wanted to say I appreciated what you said.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theia* 
Thank you for that perspective. I feel bad sometimes if I complain because I am a mom of 1. I always assume that it is more difficult with many.

I find it more difficult with many, but there are a lot of factors involved. My sister and I never fought until I hit puberty. I honestly don't remember a single squabble, and neither do my mom or sister. DD1 and ds2, otoh, play together really well sometimes...and are at each other's throats other days. DS2 is honestly more work than the other three combined, in many ways. I'd totally get any parent who had just him and complained about how hard it was, yk?

OTOH, I had a completely unplanned 10 year gap between one and two...so I've almost _always_ had a "built-in babysitter" (we do try not to abuse the privilege...and he gets paid for some of it). In that respect, I have it much _easier_ than many parents of one child, because I can go out on my own if I have to...at least at certain times of the day, but those times are less restricted than if I _only_ had dh to spell me, yk?

I think anyone who is having a hard time is entitled to vent. Rearing children is hard work...and can be incredibly emotionally draining.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kyndmamaof4* 
I agree with a lot of what's been said on both sides of this discussion.."I did this to myself"...etc yeah, yeah, yeah..whatev...I have 4 kids, one after the other..4 kids in 6 years







...just because I chose to have a larger family than some, doesn't mean that I can't have a bad day too...everyone needs time to vent and have a bit of sympathy for themselves.

Yup, I've heard that before. You can't be unhappy or struggle with your children because you *wanted* them. I'm an IVF mom of twins and because my children are wanted I've never struggled a day in their lives. Never been frustrated with them, never had a messy house or an unbalanced meal. My children are always neat and clean and well dressed and socially acceptable. They never fuss or whine or have different needs than mine.

Oh wait a minute- that is my fantasy life.














My ivf kids are just as wonderful







and awful







as my non-ivf kids and the need to admit that frustration is just as strong!


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
Yup, I've heard that before. You can't be unhappy or struggle with your children because you *wanted* them. I'm an IVF mom of twins and because my children are wanted I've never struggled a day in their lives. Never been frustrated with them, never had a messy house or an unbalanced meal. My children are always neat and clean and well dressed and socially acceptable. They never fuss or whine or have different needs than mine.

Oh wait a minute- that is my fantasy life.














My ivf kids are just as wonderful







and awful








as my non-ivf kids and the need to admit that frustration is just as strong!

I am not an IVF mom but that is totally my fantasy too. Doesn't hurt a mom to dream! Life is messy and loud and completely wonderful (most of the time







)


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
Yup, I've heard that before. You can't be unhappy or struggle with your children because you *wanted* them. I'm an IVF mom of twins and because my children are wanted I've never struggled a day in their lives. Never been frustrated with them, never had a messy house or an unbalanced meal. My children are always neat and clean and well dressed and socially acceptable. They never fuss or whine or have different needs than mine.

Oh wait a minute- that is my fantasy life.














My ivf kids are just as wonderful







and awful







as my non-ivf kids and the need to admit that frustration is just as strong!









But see, that is such a lame excuse! As the OP mentioned, she feels she can't complain b/c she has 3 kids, as opposed to 1 or 2.

Well, does that mean all those mamas who had 1 or 2 had unwanted or accidental pregnancies? Otherwise they have to shut their traps, too, as they asked for it, right?

lol!


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I think parenting is hard for everyone. I think some people are natural complainers and some are not. Sometimes you catch people on good days and sometimes you catch them on bad days.

I don't think my friend with one severely physically and developmentally delayed has it easier than my friend who has three kids. I know parents of 4+ kids who find parenting relatively easy and fulfilling and parents of one who struggle just to get through every day.

Personally, I would just offer sympathy and an ear to a mom who felt overwhelmed, and not worry about who has it "harder" than anyone else. Every mother's struggles are real and valid to HER.


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## thehighernest (Aug 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soul-O* 
I constantly hear the "you have your hands full" and "how do you do it?" types of comments, which get to be pretty irritating because I both enjoy my kids and am managing quite well.

I love reading this board because everyone's honest posts really open my mind and heart and make me rethink so many things.

I only have one child, but even before I had children, my sister already had 4. And was very involved with her church. And was studying to be a pharmacist. I have to admit that I am sure I said to her on more than one occasion something along the lines of "you have your hands full" or "I don't know how you do it," though I NEVER meant it in any other way that "OMG, you're freaking awesome and strong" because I simply assumed having 4 children would require a lot of time and strength and ingenuity and balance and on and on. Does that make sense? The comment was really a reflection of me thinking I would never be as qualified to do all of that and in praise of the amazing woman I think she is.

It never occurred to me that I was somehow de-valuing what she was doing or how she was doing it. I can only hope she didn't take it that way I guess.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

I am expecting #3 in in four years, and I have lots of friends who have four or more. Interestingly enough, (don't hate me), but I do kind of think that having more kiddos voids your right to complain as much.







Honestly, I think that first or even second kiddo is so difficult that most moms know that more then that would make life VERY hard which is why they choose not to go there.

I have one friend who has four under eight. She is always talking about how "crazy" things are and about how she never has a moment to herself. It just irritates me a little. I always think... "Well, duh?!" I mean, she totally knew what was going to happen, and it is like she just wants everyone else to know just how hard it is.

I figure that if you have a bigger family it is because you must love the business, craziness, and selfless life a little bit more or you would not have made those choices. It is kind of like I don't want to hear anyone who owns a huge SUV complaining about how much gas is takes or someone who takes on too many responsibilities in their social life complain about how they are so busy.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
I'm just talking as a mom of three whose military husband is frequently gone for periods of time that have exceeded a year. Try being alone with three kids under five for months on end. You don't know much of anyone nearby because you just moved for the fourth time in as many years, your nearest family member lives more than a thousand miles away, and even though you have posted want ads and put up flyers everywhere you still have yet to find a babysitter. You can "think it's a choice" to spend all my time with my children and not "go out by myself at least a few times a week" but not everyone is lucky enough to have the option to get out. I can't express how much I would enjoy getting out to "wander the mall" but I just don't get to. Even when DH is home I can seldom leave since he has to stay nearby in case he's called in. Plus, he's in training and needs time in the evenings to study.

Not all attachment parents are martyrs, as you say, some of us just don't have the luxury of time that you seem to.

Thank you for saying this. I am one who really doesn't seem to want time away beyond the hour laying in bed watching lame TV with my sleeping kids (and I certainly don't consider myself a "martyr" and really dislike people saying a mother who doesn't spend time away from her children is martyring herself) but really, my dh is military as well. He was gone for 75% of the last year (and it was a non-deployment year) and when he is "home" he is working at least 100 hours a week. I do have two friends who I can leave my boys with if I need to, but I certainly wouldn't ask a friend to watch all four of my kids once or twice a week so I could go be alone. I mean, it's great that some people are able to just go out and leave their children a few times a week if that's what they need, but it is truly ridiculous to assume that all mothers are able to or even have the desire to.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

I'm just talking as a mom of three whose military husband is frequently gone for periods of time that have exceeded a year. Try being alone with three kids under five for months on end. You don't know much of anyone nearby because you just moved for the fourth time in as many years, your nearest family member lives more than a thousand miles away, and even though you have posted want ads and put up flyers everywhere you still have yet to find a babysitter. You can "think it's a choice" to spend all my time with my children and not "go out by myself at least a few times a week" but not everyone is lucky enough to have the option to get out. I can't express how much I would enjoy getting out to "wander the mall" but I just don't get to. Even when DH is home I can seldom leave since he has to stay nearby in case he's called in. Plus, he's in training and needs time in the evenings to study.

Not all attachment parents are martyrs, as you say, some of us just don't have the luxury of time that you seem to.
I don't think that anyone is saying that your situation would be easy. I think you might have misconstrued the *choice* folks might think about you having. You certainly do not have a choice in you effort to find a sitter, but you did have a choice to have three kids CIA (which makes life a lot harder). You also did so knowing what you situation could be. I think that is all people are saying.... folks make choices to make their lives a certain way (in this case the more work and less free time that having three little ones brings) and then complain about how difficult it is.

I think that someone complaining about 1 or 2 really could be having a very difficult time because maybe they didn't *get* just how hard it was going to be, but a mom of three kids CIA really can't complain too much. You can't buy a big house and then complain about the money and time it takes to clean and heat it (or if you do people will wonder why you bought the house in the first place and might be annoyed by you complaining about it).


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

There is so much variance in expectations and experience. There are so many areas to experiences these variations: external support, wilingness to ask for help when it is needed or wanted, employment, partner participation, child behavior, our own desires and needs, financial/emotional/physical reserves going in, and more. It really is hard to judge another's experience no matter how similar it is to our own. What matter is how one perceives their own situation.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
I think that someone complaining about 1 or 2 really could be having a very difficult time because maybe they didn't *get* just how hard it was going to be, but a mom of three kids CIA really can't complain too much. You can't buy a big house and then complain about the money and time it takes to clean and heat it (or if you do people will wonder why you bought the house in the first place and might be annoyed by you complaining about it).









I have to disagree with this. Kids are different, you never know what "kind" of kid you are going to get. I had two amazingly easy kids, then my #3. I do not find it hard (at this point) but it was certainly harder than I thought it would be, especially at first. And you know, not all children come as their parents would have chosen, so even if all children were the same, there is always the chance that you would get pregnant when it wasn't ideal. I speak as a mother of four who was actively preventing pregnancy for the first time in my marriage when I got pregnant with #5. The timing is not what I would have chosen, but it happened. I sure hope that my friends and family will not just wonder why I got pregnant again in the first place if it is harder than I expect.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
I have to disagree with this. Kids are different, you never know what "kind" of kid you are going to get. I had two amazingly easy kids, then my #3. I do not find it hard (at this point) but it was certainly harder than I thought it would be, especially at first. And you know, not all children come as their parents would have chosen, so even if all children were the same, there is always the chance that you would get pregnant when it wasn't ideal. I speak as a mother of four who was actively preventing pregnancy for the first time in my marriage when I got pregnant with #5. The timing is not what I would have chosen, but it happened. I sure hope that my friends and family will not just wonder why I got pregnant again in the first place if it is harder than I expect.

Thanks for saying that, I was trying to think of a response to that post and was having trouble putting it into words. In a few months I will have my fourth in under six years. We do not believe in birth control but we do chart to avoid. None of our children have been planned but they are all welcome additions to our family. I feel fortunate that all of my children are fairly laid back and play well together but even with 'easy' children it is still difficult to go months without a single moment to yourself. We became pregnant this time because my chart was funny because of breastfeeding and my cycles just starting up again. We had been apart for a year and knew that another baby could result but after that long apart we were ready to be together.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm planning a large family, but only have two so far.

I complained a lot more when I had just one child than I did when I have two- because it *was* actually harder. A lot of it is temprament, I'm sure, since my first was very high needs and my second is incredibly mellow, but there were other factors.

One baby alone with one adult means that the baby is usually entirely 100% focused on the adult. More children with one adult means that sometimes the children are paying attention to _each other_ and the parent can catch a break. My three year old isn't changing diapers or doing laundry by himself, but he gives hug when his brother is sad, they run around the house together and entertain one another- it's really much much easier. At least for me, with these particular children, is is.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Have any of you read "A Complain Free World"? In the book the author stresses the importance of not complaining. He believes that if you don't complain, eventually your brain will stop looking for things to complain _about_. So if you complain all the time about the millions of things that are "annoying" about babies and children, the you will be constantly looking for the negatives and not the positives. If parenting seems like a burden then you wont want to have a lot of kids. If parenting is joyful then having 4 or more isn't a big deal.
*NOTE* it' perfectly fine to voice sadness or to change things. When the author talks about complaining he means griping about things that you have no intention of changing.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Interestingly enough, (don't hate me), but I do kind of think that having more kiddos voids your right to complain as much.







.....It is kind of like I don't want to hear anyone who owns a huge SUV complaining about how much gas is takes or someone who takes on too many responsibilities in their social life complain about how they are so busy.

I don't think that just because you chose something means you can't complain about it. Just because the benefits of something outweight the negatives doesn't mean you can't sometimes vent about the negatives.









I love our SUV, because we can actually get up our road in the winter and I can get to and from work. But it does use more gas than our wee little car that gets stuck all the time, and I think it's okay to whine about that sometimes. I work overnights because those are the available shifts and the pay is much much better, but I really miss curling up in bed with my kiddos and I definitely talk about that. Conflicted feelings about things are normal, and I don't think it's healthy to just stuff them because they're based on choices you've made.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I don't think that just because you chose something means you can't complain about it. Just because the benefits of something outweigh the negatives doesn't mean you can't sometimes vent about the negatives.









Conflicted feelings about things are normal, and I don't think it's healthy to just stuff them because they're based on choices you've made.











I try not to complain but sometimes our situation makes me sad and I feel that I need to let that out somewhere. I'm grateful to my friends for never saying anything to make me feel that I should lie in the bed of my own making and keep my mouth shut.

On a more general note, I think that our society is at a point where parents both elevate their children to the status of demi-gods yet at the same time treat them with disregard and this is why it is socially acceptable to complain about and criticise the behaviour of one's children. Who slept the least, whose kid is most difficult, whose life is most difficult since having children and on and on. It is a badge of honour to have a child to complain about and the self sacrifice of the parent must be acknowledged somehow because there is certainly no financial benefit as there would be with any other 'work'.

All this reminds me of the 'We were so poor... sketch by Monty Python where the characters try to outdo each other with their tales of difficulty which quickly descends into farce.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
I have one friend who has four under eight. She is always talking about how "crazy" things are and about how she never has a moment to herself. It just irritates me a little. I always think... "Well, duh?!" I mean, she totally knew what was going to happen, and it is like she just wants everyone else to know just how hard it is.

How did she know what was going to happen?

There is _no_ way to predict what any of your children will be like, or how they'll interact with each other. I never in a million years imagined that when I had a new baby, I'd still be dealing with a 4.5 year old who pees on the carpet, puts stuffed toys in smoothies, throws things at least 3-4 times a day, and breaks things more than any other child I've ever met (and I have 10 nieces and nephews, all older than him). I had no idea what it was going to be like trying to juggle him and a newborn.

And, the fact is, I _love_ having a house full of kids. I've been dreaming of having four kids of my own since I was 18 years old. My fourth living child is 8 months old, and was born just under two weeks after my _41st_ birthday. This is my dream - the only dream I ever had. I don't see how that means I'm supposed to wash poop off the bathroom walls, while my baby screams on the floor, and the kid who smeared said poop is on the counter in the kitchen, flooding the entire room, with song in my heart and a smile on my lips. I don't see how it means I'm supposed to just smile and say, "oh, well - kids will be kids", while ds2 hits his sister (dd1, not the baby) in the face while I'm nursing - for the third time that day. Sometimes, juggling all these kids and all the things they need, and dealing with the emotional intensity of the squabbles and meltdowns, _sucks_ - no matter how much I love (and want) them all.

I also had no idea I'd be this _tired_. It's not just the sleep deprivation of the new baby - it's the accumulated stress, fatigue, etc. of the whole journey. I almost certainly have adrenal fatigue. I'm pretty sure my iron levels are low. Actually, I suspect I'm just generally depleted, in terms of minerals. So, yeah - this gig is _nothing_ like I thought it would be, in many ways.

Considering how many people come on here talking about all the things they thought about parenting before they had one, and how wrong they were, I'm not sure why anyone would say "she/you knew what would happen". You don't know what _will_ happen. I never knew ds2 would happen. I never knew five c-sections would happen. I never knew that by the time I had all the kids I wanted, I'd be too freaking _wasted_ to parent properly. I'm not gifted with the ability to see the future.

And, using your logic, nobody with kids - one, two, or 12 - has any right to vent or complain _ever_. There's more than enough stuff in our culture about lack of sleep, one's body never bouncing back, getting fat, not being able to get a sitter, not having any fun, etc. etc. etc. etc. that everyone having a baby "should" know what's going to happen. So, we'd _all_ better sit down, shut up, and paint on that smile, because we _asked for it_.

No wonder the effing Mommy Wars rage out of control.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:

So, we'd all better sit down, shut up, and paint on that smile, because we asked for it.
Storm Bride, you are the woman!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't see what purpose it serves to get in a peeing contest over who has it worse. Sure, sometimes it gets annoying to hear other people moaning over things that one thinks that they'd like better (look, I had 3 kids in 18 months. It was a long while before I didn't want to strangle anyone moaning about how difficult their life was with one non-colicky happy baby. But that was me projecting my fantasies about how much simpler and nicer life would be with just my DD and not suddenly DD + surprise TWINS. Would it have been that way in reality? Dunno.).

I don't think hanging out with groups that regularly turn into b*ch-fest is all that great for anyone's sanity/contentment anyway. If all these folks want to do is complain and gate-keep who gets to be part of the complaining club, dump them. If it's a matter of them brushing off your feelings and you being hurt, then TELL them that. IME moms of a bunch of little kids often are kind of looked upon with undeserved respect. People always told me how calm and put together I was (hahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! More like zoned out from extreme sleep dep, and forcibly learning to roll with it more accurately!). They didn't expect me to complain as a result. I remember one time I cried in front of people after I got the brush off (very out of character, because I detest exposing weakness of any kind in front of other women, or men for that matter). These kind ladies instantly surrounded me with love and apologies, I think it was a reminder to everyone that we're all human. I'm glad that I decided to tell them that it hurt to have my feelings/complaints brushed off no matter what they thought my togetherness quotient was! I think everyone was a lot more kind/encouraging in general after that too--with everyone.

No matter what, someone is going to have it a lot harder than you, and someone is going to have it "easy". I think that people are most happy when they throw away the scorecard. Only you know how much complaining you can handle before it gets to you. I've discovered that my moaning tolerance IRL is extremely low, because I tend to have a pessimistic/jaded/negative personality (even though I don't air my dirty laundry to other people face to face, as a general rule--but that's my own toxic aversion to vulnerability, I totally own that). So I look for groups that are more positive than not, so that I don't go around the death spiral of negativity that some playgroups and moms groups can become!

But seriously, OP...some onlies do give their moms more trouble than your squad plus 7. Some moms have more or less tolerance than you. If your friends snark or dismiss your feelings or concerns, that has zip to do with how many kids you have and everything to do with them having their heads up their butts. If they're worth keeping around, you could always try to get them to come up for air. If not, then it's time to start looking again for new folks. But don't stick your head up your own butt just to get back at them, KWIM?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I don't think hanging out with groups that regularly turn into b*ch-fest is all that great for anyone's sanity/contentment anyway. If all these folks want to do is complain and gate-keep who gets to be part of the complaining club, dump them.

Yeah - this isn't a very healthy vibe, for anybody.

Quote:

If it's a matter of them brushing off your feelings and you being hurt, then TELL them that.
This.

Quote:

IME moms of a bunch of little kids often are kind of looked upon with undeserved respect. People always told me how calm and put together I was (hahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! More like zoned out from extreme sleep dep, and forcibly learning to roll with it more accurately!).
I don't get the "calm and put together" thing (and would seriously think the person saying it was on heavy drugs), but I know what you mean. There's a lot of the "I could _never_ do what you do" mindset. People really do think that moms of large families (by whatever definition of "large" they may be using) are almost superhuman or something.

Quote:

No matter what, someone is going to have it a lot harder than you, and someone is going to have it "easy". I think that people are most happy when they throw away the scorecard.
This is totally true.

Quote:

If your friends snark or dismiss your feelings or concerns, that has zip to do with how many kids you have and everything to do with them having their heads up their butts.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowansmama* 
Well, I'm a mom of one, soon to be two, so I'm not really who you're looking to hear from. But I did want to point out a couple of things that could explain this phenomenon.

One - many moms use complaining about how difficult it is as a way of bonding. It's something all mamas can relate to, no matter how few or how many little ones you have! It's kind of like complaining about husbands, or complaining about how your pants don't fit I guess.

Two - I'd say most moms of only one or two really do think they have it hard, only because they don't have anything to compare it to. If you only have the one, you don't really know what it's like to have three, so you feel like it's hard for you because that's your reference point. Does that make sense?

All that said, I really try not to complain at all about anything in a social setting. I like to be the positive one in the hopes that other people will follow my lead. I prefer to look on the bright side - "hey, I got a whole hour to myself today, which is better than yesterday!"

Maybe the next time you find this happening you could try to steer the conversation toward the more positive things about parenting. Perhaps if other people see that you, who have every right to feel overwhelmed and exhausted, can avoid complaining, they'll do the same!

(Of course, they may not. But it's worth a try







)

Amen!









We should start a support group for mothers trying not to complain when they are around other mothers. It's like being a recovering alcoholic at Oktoberfest or something.

Seriously.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

How did she know what was going to happen?

There is no way to predict what any of your children will be like, or how they'll interact with each other. I never in a million years imagined that when I had a new baby, I'd still be dealing with a 4.5 year old who pees on the carpet, puts stuffed toys in smoothies, throws things at least 3-4 times a day, and breaks things more than any other child I've ever met (and I have 10 nieces and nephews, all older than him). I had no idea what it was going to be like trying to juggle him and a newborn.
A-Wha??? How did you *not* know what was going to happen? I mean seriously, despite the temperament of a new baby, did you really not think that having a high needs baby (or a high needs four year old) was a possibility? Further, even if a newbie is a great baby they are still...... a BABY? Not trying to be rude at all, but you didn't think a four year old might break and throw things? Seriously, I imagine that said four year old was also probably a high needs three year old when you got pregnant.









Quote:

I also had no idea I'd be this tired. It's not just the sleep deprivation of the new baby - it's the accumulated stress, fatigue, etc. of the whole journey. I almost certainly have adrenal fatigue. I'm pretty sure my iron levels are low. Actually, I suspect I'm just generally depleted, in terms of minerals. So, yeah - this gig is nothing like I thought it would be, in many ways.
Being that tired sucks, but you are making my point for me here. You are exhausted, depleted, and strung out because of all of the kids you have. Anybody who thinks it through would have been able to predict that you would be overly tired and stressed (which is precisely WHY most people do not have that many kids).

I am sorry you are tired, but my ONLY point is that it was a very foreseeable thing. And... complaining about being overly tired and stressed when you have a houseful of kids might put someone off a little. That's my sole point.

This is funny because I am about to have my third kid in four years, and we are not done.







I think having a large family is a decision that must be made with your eyes wide open to what is going to happen (or what could happen) and the DESIRE to take that on. When someone who has many children starts to complain I just have to wonder... isn't this exactly what you signed up for?

I live my vocation cheerfully and with a sense of honor and purpose. My husband and I decide together each month if we should add another baby to the family. Involved in that decision is my state of being and whether or not I have the time and energy to properly cultivate another child at the moment (mentality, spiritually, etc). I do not think large families are something to be romanticized and then once someone has one they say.... "How was I supposed to know I would be this tired and stressed! I am going to complain about my situation and choices to everyone around me!!" I am a devote catholic, and I have many friends who have 7 or more. Do they get stressed, you bet. Do they complain all of the time about crazy lives, business, fatigue, and stress. No way. They live their vocations with joy because it is exactly what they CHOSE with their eyes wide open.

I think it is wonderful that you wanted a large family. But, I do not think you can claim for one minute that you didn't realize that you might have to deal with a four year old that needs a lot of attention *and* a newborn who also needs a lot of attention at the same time.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
A-Wha??? How did you *not* know what was going to happen? I mean seriously, despite the temperament of a new baby, did you really not think that having a high needs baby (or a high needs four year old) was a possibility? Further, even if a newbie is a great baby they are still...... a BABY? Not trying to be rude at all, but you didn't think a four year old might break and throw things? Seriously, I imagine that said four year old was also probably a high needs three year old when you got pregnant.









If you're not trying to be rude, then don't be.

There are so many many things you can't predict about having kids. How could someone know that they would end up with PPD, or a special needs child, or a very difficult recovery from birth, or problems with their partner, or a death in the family, or extreme anxiety, or or or... Life hands you things you aren't ready for sometimes. I don't think it's too much to say that someone with one child could be having just as hard a time as someone with 4 if they're in a bad place in their lives.

Quote:

_Being that tired sucks, but you are making my point for me here. You are exhausted, depleted, and strung out because of all of the kids you have. Anybody who thinks it through would have been able to predict that you would be overly tired and stressed (which is precisely WHY most people do not have that many kids)._
Now, I could need to clean my virtual ears out, but it sounds to me like you just said that Storm Bride didn't think through having her children...

And people still choose to have kids, even when they know what it entails. No one is going into this naively. I knew that there would be hard times marrying my spouse, but I still want to be with him. It doesn't make it any easier to live with him when he's driving me crazy, but I don't think that means that I should ignore my very real feelings about the issues we face. No one can solve their problems if they don't admit to having them.

Quote:

_I am sorry you are tired, but my ONLY point is that it was a very foreseeable thing. And... complaining about being overly tired and stressed when you have a houseful of kids might put someone off a little. That's my sole point._
And if we all lived our lives to not "put someone off a little", we would all be emotionally repressed people who are not happy with our lives. I agree with others that OP should tell these women that brushing off her feelings is not okay. You are suggesting that she not complain because it might bother someone. If your spouse decided they didn't want to spend any time with you, would you not complain because "it might bother him"? But something like that could happen in a marriage that you CHOSE to be in.

Quote:

_This is funny because I am about to have my third kid in four years, and we are not done.







I think having a large family is a decision that must be made with your eyes wide open to what is going to happen (or what could happen) and the DESIRE to take that on. When someone who has many children starts to complain I just have to wonder... isn't this exactly what you signed up for?_
And I really think you are not making this decision with your eyes wide open if you think there is never a circumstance in which you will feel like you want to vent or complain about having three children. And don't tell me that some of us didn't have the DESIRE to take our children for better or worse. Yes, those with many children chose to sign up for it, but that doesn't mean they have to love being overwhelmed or exhausted.

Quote:

_
I live my vocation cheerfully and with a sense of honor and purpose. My husband and I decide together each month if we should add another baby to the family. Involved in that decision is my state of being and whether or not I have the time and energy to properly cultivate another child at the moment (mentality, spiritually, etc). I do not think large families are something to be romanticized and then once someone has one they say.... "How was I supposed to know I would be this tired and stressed! I am going to complain about my situation and choices to everyone around me!!" I am a devote catholic, and I have many friends who have 7 or more. Do they get stressed, you bet. Do they complain all of the time about crazy lives, business, fatigue, and stress. No way. They live their vocations with joy because it is exactly what they CHOSE with their eyes wide open._
I'm going to take a gander and say that your friends don't complain to you because they know you won't hear them with compassion and understanding. I am also a devout Catholic, and I don't think for one second that God intended us to stop reaching out to one another, no matter what troubles us.

And here's the other thing, you keep saying "You have a choice", but you know as well as I that sometimes God hands you something you didn't plan or weren't ready for. I think He also gives us people in our lives that can help us through those times.

Quote:

_I think it is wonderful that you wanted a large family. But, I do not think you can claim for one minute that you didn't realize that you might have to deal with a four year old that needs a lot of attention *and* a newborn who also needs a lot of attention at the same time.







_
[/QUOTE]

No one claimed that. They claimed that parenthood is hard work and that sometimes they ARE worried or stressed or tapped out, and that sometimes they need someone to lean on or vent to. In my case, I really DIDN'T foresee what my 2yo was going to be when we added a second because I didn't realize at the time that he was SN. We say on these boards all the time that it's really difficult to understand it until you've lived it, and I think that it's safe to say that you aren't in ANY of these women's shoes, and you really can't dismiss their feelings because "they asked for it".


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

InMediasRes.... You post is nice, and I appreciate your thoughts. I think some distinctions need to be made here....

I am NOT talking about a women who has PPD and discusses her struggles with her friends... I am NOT talking about women who openly discuss their struggles in a way where they are seeking support... We had two women cry at familia yesterday because they are overwhelmed. I cried right along with these wonderful ladies.

The thread is about COMPLAINING. Simply complaining is a totally different thing then all of the very serious issues you are discussing, and the distinction is very important. I DO NOT like to hear women with big families constantly COMPLAIN, ranting and raving continuously about the issues that go along with the choice to have a big family (i.e. no time to yourself) in an effort to simply let other random people know how hard it is to have a big family.... that is so very different then what you are talking about.

My entire post was about COMPLAINING... you took it to a whole other level and indicated that I think nobody should ever talk about their struggles with each other. Not the case at all. Complaining and seeking support are two very different things.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Ah, a distinction you should have made much earlier.

Even so, people who complain about something they chose have very valid feelings too. If I were listening to someone constantly complaining about their situation when I _know_ they have it tough, instead of saying, "Hey, you chose this. Suck it up." how about "You sound overwhelmed. What can I do to help you feel supported?" Sometimes people just want someone to acknowledge that they made a hard choice and that they're struggling with it.

I agree that there is a point at which someone is just complaining because they like wallowing in negativity or want to show everyone else up with how hard they have it, but I like to think that, if I see a place where someone is struggling, I can help instead of writing them off.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
Ah, a distinction you should have made much earlier.

Even so, people who complain about something they chose have very valid feelings too. If I were listening to someone constantly complaining about their situation when I _know_ they have it tough, instead of saying, "Hey, you chose this. Suck it up." how about "You sound overwhelmed. What can I do to help you feel supported?" Sometimes people just want someone to acknowledge that they made a hard choice and that they're struggling with it.

I agree that there is a point at which someone is just complaining because they like wallowing in negativity or want to show everyone else up with how hard they have it, but I like to think that, if I see a place where someone is struggling, I can help instead of writing them off.


Thank you for putting that so succinctly, I was trying to formulate it myself...you did a much better job.

I also wanted to add that what Landover considers complaining, might be just venting. I live in a community with a large number of Catholic families. I would say our average size family is around 6+, with the largest families being around 8-10 children. The outliers on the plot weigh in at 12-15 children. We have our own support group and many of us mothers vent.....A LOT!!! Sometimes it is the way we cope besides praying together and attending Mass together.

Just because we commiserate over our daily woes does not mean we are complaining. We just are working together to do our best, the best way we can.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

wait, you're not allowed to ever complain just b/c you choose to have more than 2 kids? What?! Isn't the OP about parents with 1 kid complaining, and how it gets annoying for moms of many to hear b/c, relatively, they should have it easier, and all (I don't necessary feel this way, b/c 1 high needs kid could be a lot more challenging than 4 easy going ones -- plus then we have the whole lifestyle differences coming into play, which changes everything).

So, I guess the whole thing is that moms, of any number, don't really have the right to complain b/c they did this to themselves?









For every mom of many who is "constantly complaining", I'm sure there are moms of 1-2 that are, too. In fact, I can think of someone I know who has only 1, and has it good in other ways, yet they are drama, drama, drama, complain, complain, complain. Some people are just like this, I think, and get something out of it. That is a bit annoying, but hey, we all can pick and choose who are in our lives, or who we waste energy caring about.

I think it's okay to say you're having a hard day/week, regardless of how many kids you have. It doesn't make any sense to say, "ah, but my dear, you chose to make all those babies, now woman up and act like everything is fabulous all the time". Just like it's okay for mom's of only 1 to feel like life is super difficult. Maybe it is? sheesh. Parenting, of any number of little ones, IS difficult and can throw you curve balls all the time. On the topic of the OP, going from childless to having a child is a HUGE deal. You know how they say 1 child takes up 100% of your time, so any more can't possibly take up any more of your time (or whatever the saying is, I'm just rambling). I think that holds true. 1 kid or 10 kids - you're going to be busy, exhausted, and overwhelmed at times. That's normal.

No need to complain about how others complain.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I haven't read all the replies yet but no matter what in life someone will complain and think its harder then another. We had been TTC for about 7 yrs on and off. So it would bother me to great deal to hear things like well at least you don't have to worry about having a kid while your husband is deployed. Or he has it easy he isn't missing out on anything. Then to get the questions of why we dont' have kids and stuff like that. So to the last question I just started replying that i hate kids because that shut them up.

Point is no matter what just because we may view something as easy doesn't mean it is easy for the next person. Same concept goes when people complain about missing their SO and then there are others that say well you knew what you were getting into. Yes to a point however doesn't make things any easier or harder when it comes down to it.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 

For every mom of many who is "constantly complaining", I'm sure there are moms of 1-2 that are, too. In fact, I can think of someone I know who has only 1, and has it good in other ways, yet they are drama, drama, drama, complain, complain, complain. Some people are just like this, I think, and get something out of it. That is a bit annoying, but hey, we all can pick and choose who are in our lives, or who we waste energy caring about.


I think this is what Landover was getting at. These are the people about which my mom used to say "They don't want things to get better. If they did, they wouldn't have anything to complain about."


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Look folks.... you are taking a sentiment I expressed and going WAY to far. This thread is about COMPLAINING. This is getting rather silly as it has turned from folks making actual points to a semantic debate.

Quote:

I also wanted to add that what Landover considers complaining, might be just venting. I live in a community with a large number of Catholic families. I would say our average size family is around 6+, with the largest families being around 8-10 children. The outliers on the plot weigh in at 12-15 children. We have our own support group and many of us mothers vent.....A LOT!!! Sometimes it is the way we cope besides praying together and attending Mass together.
Please go back and read my post. You are discussing women who are seeking support from each other (as you stating it is a support group). These are not women who are constantly talking about how awful they have it to everyone in town.

I am not talking about someone who mentions how hard they have it because they are seeking support from other women. I am talking about COMPLAINING.

Please not my original example of my friend who I considered to be doing just this. She is not seeking support (in fact she is totally the opposite in that she tried to martyr herself for all the world to see).

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post

For every mom of many who is "constantly complaining", I'm sure there are moms of 1-2 that are, too. In fact, I can think of someone I know who has only 1, and has it good in other ways, yet they are drama, drama, drama, complain, complain, complain. Some people are just like this, I think, and get something out of it. That is a bit annoying, but hey, we all can pick and choose who are in our lives, or who we waste energy caring about.
I think this is what Landover was getting at. These are the people about which my mom used to say "They don't want things to get better. If they did, they wouldn't have anything to complain about."
Thank you... yes. When I see a mom of one do it, it doesn't bother me as much because I truly think that she might not have realized what exactly she was "getting herself into". However, when a mom of five is doing just this I think that she must have known that it was going to be that way. This does not void her right to seek support, but if she goes to every random playgroup and goes on and on about how hard she has it then folks are giong to do a double take.

I will say it again... the reason that most people DO NOT have four or more is because they realize just how hard it is with the one or two they have.
The OP was asking about if you got annoyed by moms of one who complain. My SOLE point was that I sometimes get more annoyed at moms of many who complain to anyone who will listen for that very reason.

I am out because I am clearly not doing a good job of explaining myself because I keep getting random responses from people who clearly think I mean that you void your right to seek support if you have a third kid. THAT IS NOT MY POINT.

For what it is worth, I am in the process of cultivating my own large family, and I am dear friends who people who are living this dream. I am quite sure that they would all share my sentiment here. It is hard enough raising a large family with the stigma from society. It only makes it more difficult when you encounter a mom of many who clearly is trying to make everyone around her understand that she had is soooo bad.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

It only makes it more difficult when you encounter a mom of many who clearly is trying to make everyone around her understand that she had is soooo bad.
This is my neighbor to a tee. If God Himself came down and gave her three wishes she would say, "Only three??"

She never commiserates, only complains. There is a huge difference IMO.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 

Thank you... yes. When I see a mom of one do it, it doesn't bother me as much because I truly think that she might not have realized what exactly she was "getting herself into". However, when a mom of five is doing just this I think that she must have known that it was going to be that way. This does not void her right to seek support, but if she goes to every random playgroup and goes on and on about how hard she has it then folks are giong to do a double take.

Alright, this makes more sense to me - and I see what you are saying here. We do hope for #5, and yes, by now surely I know it's not easy to have lots of kids. And I could see how if I were to complain, on a regular basis, about how hard I had it - it could be annoying to those I am complaining to... b/c yeah, I did do this to myself. This is true. Bring on the chaos! LOL.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Thank you ladies. I think it took me awhile to express my point correctly, but I am so glad to see that I have not offended anyone.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
A-Wha??? How did you *not* know what was going to happen? I mean seriously, despite the temperament of a new baby, did you really not think that having a high needs baby (or a high needs four year old) was a possibility? Further, even if a newbie is a great baby they are still...... a BABY? Not trying to be rude at all, but you didn't think a four year old might break and throw things? Seriously, I imagine that said four year old was also probably a high needs three year old when you got pregnant.









Yes. He was. However, he was considerably less high needs than he'd been at two, and there were certain environmental factors involved (this household was pretty stressed after my son was stillborn, and it had an impact on all my kids, including ds2). I had no idea he'd still be this rough to to deal with by the time he was four...no idea at all. And, no - I didn't think a four year old would break and thrown things, at least not more than occasionally, because it's outside my experience with kids.

Quote:

Being that tired sucks, but you are making my point for me here. You are exhausted, depleted, and strung out because of all of the kids you have. Anybody who thinks it through would have been able to predict that you would be overly tired and stressed (which is precisely WHY most people do not have that many kids).
Actually, I'm this exhausted, depleted and strung out for a lot of reasons _related_ to having kids, but not because I have them. Each of my siblings has four children, and neither of them is this physically wiped out (well, my sister is...but she also had major bypass surgery in December).

Quote:

I am sorry you are tired, but my ONLY point is that it was a very foreseeable thing. And... complaining about being overly tired and stressed when you have a houseful of kids might put someone off a little. That's my sole point.
If it puts someone off, that's their problem, not mine. I don't happen to like listening to career women (or men, for that matter) go on about how busy they are, and how they can't keep up, etc...doesn't mean I need to get nasty about how they "asked for it" and/or "should have expected it".

Quote:

This is funny because I am about to have my third kid in four years, and we are not done.







I think having a large family is a decision that must be made with your eyes wide open to what is going to happen (or what could happen) and the DESIRE to take that on. When someone who has many children starts to complain I just have to wonder... isn't this exactly what you signed up for?

I live my vocation cheerfully and with a sense of honor and purpose. My husband and I decide together each month if we should add another baby to the family. Involved in that decision is my state of being and whether or not I have the time and energy to properly cultivate another child at the moment (mentality, spiritually, etc). I do not think large families are something to be romanticized and then once someone has one they say.... "How was I supposed to know I would be this tired and stressed! I am going to complain about my situation and choices to everyone around me!!" I am a devote catholic, and I have many friends who have 7 or more. Do they get stressed, you bet. Do they complain all of the time about crazy lives, business, fatigue, and stress. No way. They live their vocations with joy because it is exactly what they CHOSE with their eyes wide open.
That's great. If you're able to get through life without ever venting/complaining about your stress, that's truly great. Not everybody can do that. For _me_, I do better when I vent off sometimes.

Quote:

I think it is wonderful that you wanted a large family. But, I do not think you can claim for one minute that you didn't realize that you might have to deal with a four year old that needs a lot of attention *and* a newborn who also needs a lot of attention at the same time.








Well, as a matter of fact, I can "claim" that...because I didn't. I had no idea whatsoever that I was going to end up with _one_ child who needs more time, attention and crisis management than my other three combined...or any of my nieces or nephews. Yes - it was a possibility, but it's one I failed to think about.

I guess I shouldn't complain about my stillborn son, either...we all know that _could_ happen when we get pregnant.

Ugh.

FWIW: Over the years, I've had several moms of 3 and 4 kids tell me it gets _easier_ as the family gets bigger. I tended to assume they knew what they were talking about. I had no reason to think having a third or fourth child was going to make things exponentially harder. And...joy is very, very hard for me. I only experience it in flashes.


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## dahlialia (Mar 22, 2009)

I often try to remember, that in a way, who has it "harder" is not so much based in the facts of our situation, but rather in the difference between what we are hoping for, and what we get.

A mom of 1 could be hoping for hours to herself, and only get 30 minutes because the LO didn't nap well that day. A mom of 10 could be hoping to get 10 minutes of peace while she drinks her coffee, and only get 3. 30 minutes looks like a lot of time when you are only getting 3 minutes. And it is. But not so much if you were counting on four times that.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)




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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

For me, going from one to two has been extremely difficult. DS will be 4 in April and DD was just born in January, so there is a rather large age gap between the two. I'm still learning how to juggle life with two. My son is extremely whiney and needy; always has been, so that makes it tough when I am confined to the chair/couch nursing the baby. Then there's my DD who only naps for about an hour and a half in the mornings and that's IT! She's only 7 weeks old, too, so I expected much longer naps and defintely more than one. When she's awake, and that's most of the day, she is attached to me at the boob, so I can't get a thing done. Did I mention my son no longer naps, either? Needless to say, for me it's been a tough transition, but of course, so well worth it.


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## ohiomommy1122 (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annethcz* 
Being the new mom of one baby (my first child) was much harder than being the mom of 4 closely-spaced kiddos. Truly.

Having a child was life changing. Everything was different, and I was learning as I went along. As I added more children to my family, it became easier each time. I'd learned new parenting skills, I'd figured out how to effectively deal with multiple-child issues. Things that baffled me when I was the mother of one baby became old hat. I've become a much better mother the more experience I have.

yes I am a mom of 4 and totally agree its was such a hard adjustment from none to 1- you have all the time you want to yourself then along comes baby and now you have no time I do think having your first is a bit harder that having 4 sometimes.

I do homeschool so I dont understand how moms whose kids are in school have no free time though


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## rachelernst (Apr 27, 2005)

The cure to complaining would be Non-Violent Communication and a little self-inquiry. So, first, we would ask what is it the complaining person is needing. We delve into that (listening, reflecting, asking) because it doesn't help unless we find the truth about their need. Once the need is truthfully defined, the next step would be to brainstorm ways of meeting that need.

I'm not Buddhist, but I think we could learn from them: how do we reduce suffering in the world?

If someone is complaining of suffering, it also seems to go away pretty quickly when we start really listening to them. Most people start to take it back once they have a light shining on them, like now they have to tell the truth. Then, they can see for themselves if there is something they need, or the problem vanishes. Either way, problem is getting closer to being solved.

Another way of doing the inquiry is to learn The Work and use it, surreptitiously, in conversation... sort of do The Work for them as if you are in their shoes, with compassion. "So, you're going through a difficult time right now?" Naomi Aldort coaches this beautifully--she is a facilitator of The Work.

In my experience, ALL parents need a little help now and then. Mothers need helpers. We have to create the resources we need.

Adjusting to my first child was difficult. I jumped in too soon with a second child and that put me under again for awhile, but I started doing The Work then and brought up my game--my husband actually noticed and our relationship improved greatly. We got a high-energy dog and I reached my personal threshhold. I made the decision to get the dog, but fortunately I could get rid of the dog. I am now experiencing a health crisis due to low hormones and stress. I have the ability to try to not conceive again and to work on my health. In the meantime, I have always felt pretty inept as a mother... of "just two"! In fact, I came on MDC tonight to look up parenting advice, maybe related to my burning question for the past 5 years: "How does 'she' do it? How do other mothers make it look so easy. How could I have more of a routine and get the kids to bed at the same time every night, etc. etc.??" Many of my answers come by just remembering my dear friends who certainly don't "have it all together." We share our struggles and complaints and we LISTEN to each other.

Who knows why we make decisions? I notice that thoughts are thinking me. Where the heck do some of them come from? Outta left field!

The other mother struggling IS me. We are all One. We don't always know how to handle the social situation, but we can start by connecting with our own hearts.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Ah, no way mamas! I reserve the right to complain! Life can suck whether you "chose" something or not.

I chose to have another baby but I didn't know that was going to come with only ONE choice for my neuroscience class. And that the teacher was crazy. So I just went through the 1st trimester with a toddler while writing 2 APA 8 page papers a WEEK plus a 15 page APA final paper. While still taking 3 other classes (and this is an 8 week session). Complain away I did! Quite heavily to anyone who listened.

A mama might have chosen to have 1, 2, 5, or 10 kids but at any given time the immediate circumstance could definitely warrant complaining! Such as when the baby stays up all night or the kids all get chickenpox the week Grandma is visiting or when your 4yo pulls all the fish out of the little pond in the neighbor's yard...

I don't think the mamas who complain are at fault here...I find it more disturbing to see how long this thread has gone on with a bunch of people sitting around deciding who has the "right" to complain!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 

A mama might have chosen to have 1, 2, 5, or 10 kids but at any given time the immediate circumstance could definitely warrant complaining! Such as when the baby stays up all night or the kids all get chickenpox the week Grandma is visiting or when your 4yo pulls all the fish out of the little pond in the neighbor's yard...


yeah to that!

I only complained about this to DH today, and no one else (until now







)... but man, my 6 yo DS was up for hours last night crying due to an earache. I tried so many things to make him comfy and fall asleep (this is when I wished I had children's pain reliever on hand - and dang straight I bought some today), but it meant that I got little sleep last night. Luckily, he felt better in the AM, just sleepy himself so I kept him home today to rest, but really, I think it's okay to complain about stuff like this. It doesn't matter that I have four kids, so I should have known I'd miss sleep often (and actually, this isn't true b/c my kids rarely get sick, and have been easy to get back to sleep) -- in fact, that DS is my 2nd child. So, if I had stopped after my magical girl and boy - I still would have been up last night with a sleepless kiddo.

I think it's one thing to be annoyed w/someone who seems to complain and be unhappy in life on a regular basis. It's another thing for a mother of 1 or 15 to complain when she's had a bad day/night. No reason to pass any judgment based on number of offspring.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Wow. I think the only thing in the world the OP meant was that she sees moms of one or two who complain freely and get sympathy but if she complains/vents one little iota, she gets told that she does't have the right too because she chose it. All she was saying is that she doesn't get heard. That she isn't allowed the same luxury to vent as everyone else in her circle. And then a million people jumped on her for attacking moms of onlies, turning it into a competition or saying how she has it harder. I dont think she did any of that, she just. wants to be heard.

I feel the same way. I have four kids. I'm not allowed to say I'm tired, that the house is a wreck or that I haven't slept eight hours a night all week. I get told those exact words, "you chose this" and "what did you think would happen?" , "you should have thought about that before you had all those kids" yet moms of two don't get told those things. But they already had the experience of having a child too. So to recap, if you have one or two kids, it seems socially acceptable to be tired or have a rough day. Three of more, tough.

We ALL chose to have kids, if it's one or ten, so what? My mom chooses not to have a job but she still complains about not having extra money to spend. It seems it's ok and socially acceptable to complain about the consequences of your choices if it's anything BUT having more than the socially acceptable number of kids.

Did I know that having four kids would be harder than having one? Yes and no. In some ways it's easier, in some ways harder. Some of things, good and bad, I anticipated, some I didn't.

To sum up, no matter what I chose, I still have a right to my feelings and to express those feelings, just like anybody else.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Anglyn- I think this is probably one of the best posts on this subject I have ever seen. Thanks!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
It seems it's ok and socially acceptable to complain about the consequences of your choices if it's anything BUT having more than the socially acceptable number of kids.

I'd never thought of it that way, but you may have a point. Nobody told me (or any of the legion of other women I know) that "you picked him" when I complained about my ex. My marriage was actually falling apart, but when someone vents about some normal day-to-day thing their partner does within a healthy marriage, the reaction usually isn't, "well, you _chose_ him", either.

The only other life issue, besides a "big" family (I really don't think four kids is _that_ big), that I see this kind of reaction to is overconsumption. There are defintiely people ready to roll their eyes when the person with the brand new car, huge house, dinner out five nights a week, huge tv, etc. lifestyle complains about not being able to pay their bills. It's the only other one I can think of.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Storm Bride- I find it is a homeschooling issue too. Heaven forbid you express any discontent about your kids when you've chosen to homeschool.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Storm Bride- I find it is a homeschooling issue too. Heaven forbid you express any discontent about your kids when you've chosen to homeschool.

Ah - haven't run into that one, but I expect I will, eventually. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I can remember other moms being really weird with me, because I wasn't looking forward to ds1 going back to school every September. Apparently, I was being some kind of martyr or something...??


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Well, the reality is that people perceive anything other than doing it the "normal" (i.e. mainstream) way as choosing to make work for yourself. Breastfeeding is another example.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Well, the reality is that people perceive anything other than doing it the "normal" (i.e. mainstream) way as choosing to make work for yourself. Breastfeeding is another example.

The breastfeeding thing blows my mind. I remember babysitting my nephew and having to get him a bottle. I will _never_ understand why people think breastfeeding is harder work! (Yes - I know the difficulty in breastfeeding varies from one person to another. I just mean that, in general, formula is _way_ more work.)


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Oh that's true! I get told all the time (about homeschooling), "Oh, I could never do that! I don't have the patience!" and I find it odd that the child this mom took care of for four years suddenly, at age five, becomes burdensome.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
Oh that's true! I get told all the time (about homeschooling), "Oh, I could never do that! I don't have the patience!" and I find it odd that the child this mom took care of for four years suddenly, at age five, becomes burdensome.

A friend who is a teacher said something like this to me recently. I think it is because for her, teaching is really a ton of work, and she can't imagine trying to do it and taking care of younger kids at the same time. But she doesn't make the connection that a lot of the work she has to do is administrative, or related to testing and reporting, or trying to get a whole class to move along at the same time, and so on.

People in general seem to think teaching kids is really really hard and specialized and requires knowledge.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
A friend who is a teacher said something like this to me recently. I think it is because for her, teaching is really a ton of work, and she can't imagine trying to do it and taking care of younger kids at the same time. But she doesn't make the connection that a lot of the work she has to do is administrative, or related to testing and reporting, or trying to get a whole class to move along at the same time, and so on.

People in general seem to think teaching kids is really really hard and specialized and requires knowledge.

I have my M.Ed. and think that homeschooling would probably be best for my oldest child. The thing that is holding me back isn't the concern of teaching him (or more accurately him learning) but household management and family balance. When the heck would I clean my floors and prep dinner and clean up the general clutter if I had 4 kids with me all day, every day? When would I sneak my ice cream and check in here at mdc?









I'm afraid I would end up hating my kids (and them hating me) if they didn't have the break school provides for us all. So i "_don't know how you do it_" but in a household management sort of way.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I know exactly what you mean. My BFF has one nearly 2-year-old and thinks her life is absolutely overwhelming and exhausting. I have to say, I don't feel much sympathy since my kids are 8, 4, and 2, and my husband lives away from us over half the time for work, so I do mostly everything by myself while working at home full-time. But there are other problems she has that I don't (financial & marriage issues), so I try to remember that she is probably more stressed when it comes down to it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
But there are other problems she has that I don't (financial & marriage issues), so I try to remember that she is probably more stressed when it comes down to it.

Yeah. Four kids, stressful as it is (especially with ds2), is a walk in the park compared to one kid, massive financial strain, and a disintegrating marriage. DS1 was a picnic...the others aren't a picnic - but I have a functional _life_.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I honestly think we should take people's word for it when they say they are overwhelmed.


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## AmyKT (Aug 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I honestly think we should take people's word for it when they say they are overwhelmed.

Good point. It is awful to have your feelings invalidated. On the flip side, I'm trying hard to only say positive things about other people's families unless they bring up hardships. For instance, while I might be tempted to say "you have your hands full" when I see a mom out shopping with 4 kids, it would be nicer to say "they look like a fun bunch." That is, if I really have to say anything at all, which I usually don't.

But if she is feeling overwhelmed at the time, would that be a kick in the gut? Like maybe she'll feel that she should be enjoying her fun bunch instead of dreading the last two aisles? Ah, who knows.

But I totally agree with the above statement. We should, to the best of our ability, listen to eachother and sympathize as much as possible, though I know it's hard when you're dealing with a complainer.

I know I'm guilty of telling my little you'll-never-guess-what-DD-did-this-time stories, just to get a laugh, but I know it's a fine line between that and seeming negative all the time.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyKT* 
Good point. It is awful to have your feelings invalidated. On the flip side, I'm trying hard to only say positive things about other people's families unless they bring up hardships. For instance, while I might be tempted to say "you have your hands full" when I see a mom out shopping with 4 kids, it would be nicer to say "they look like a fun bunch." That is, if I really have to say anything at all, which I usually don't.

But if she is feeling overwhelmed at the time, would that be a kick in the gut? Like maybe she'll feel that she should be enjoying her fun bunch instead of dreading the last two aisles? Ah, who knows.

When I'm feeling overwhelmend, and someone says something along the lines of "that looks like fun", I tend to take it as I think it's meant...both not wanting to assume that I must just _hate_ my kids _and_ a way of helping me focus on the positive. They are a fun bunch. It's not their fault that I'm not always up to having that much fun.









I have to say that I really don't get the hate for "you have your hands full", though. I've heard it a couple of times. When a mom is carrying a baby, one of her kids has disappeared (near a creek!), another is running pell mell for a parking lot, and another (not mine - I give a neighbour's son a ride to and from preschool) is doing the "I can't hear you - no I don't need a jacket" thing...she _does_ have her hands full! The short walk from the preschool door to the minivan is probably the hardest 10 minutes of my week...and it should only be 2 minutes, and it happens three times a week.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

The way I look at it, we all have different energy levels and different health statuses, different marriages, different financial situations, and different kids. We also are approaching our situations from different kinds of background experience.

So, rather than feeling irritated when someone else is overwhelmed by a situation that _I think_ would be easy for _me_ -- why not just be glad for the experience, knowledge, and skills I have that make some things easier for me than they are for others?

Of course, I don't really _know_ for sure that if I'd find it easy being in that other mom's shoes with her husband, her income level, etcetera.

But lately I've been realizing how misogynistic we women sometimes tend to be toward one another. And the whole idea that women don't really know when they are overwhelmed and need a break -- it just seems like more devaluing of women's opinions, to me.

Of course, if the griping moms are the same ones asking the OP, "Why did you have three?" if she ever says she's overwhelmed, then that is wrong and it might be a good idea for her to tell them how this makes her feel.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyKT* 
I know I'm guilty of telling my little you'll-never-guess-what-DD-did-this-time stories, just to get a laugh, but I know it's a fine line between that and seeming negative all the time.









I've done that before, too. But then sometimes I get weird looks because the other moms are thinking I should have punished my child for that crazy thing she did ...

I s'pose it's moms like me who give the more rigid disciplinarians the impression that either you are doing it their way, or you are just sitting back and smirking about how cute your child is as she goes on a mass-murder rampage.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I hate my laptop SO much right now! If you breath on it wrong, it navigates away and loses my entire post! And it was long. Ok, again!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I have my M.Ed. and think that homeschooling would probably be best for my oldest child. The thing that is holding me back isn't the concern of teaching him (or more accurately him learning) but household management and family balance. When the heck would I clean my floors and prep dinner and clean up the general clutter if I had 4 kids with me all day, every day? When would I sneak my ice cream and check in here at mdc?









I'm afraid I would end up hating my kids (and them hating me) if they didn't have the break school provides for us all. So i "_don't know how you do it_" but in a household management sort of way.

For me, when my dd turned "school age", taking care of her and her two younger brothers and running the house was absolutely no different than it had been BEFORE she turned that age. In fact, it was easier, but I find older kids easier. They can wait, they can help you, can wash their own hands and wipe their own butts and turn lights and tvs off and on and put on their own shoes and hand you a diaper for the baby and entertain themselves for periods of time and they are fun to talk to.

Of course, we aren't "sit at the kitchen table" kind of homeschoolers, but more of unschoolers. And at the first grade age level, she knows everything any first grader does, only she learned it in a ridiculously shorter time. And bonus, her brother who isn't "school age" yet, knows roughly two thirds of what she does ALREADY from watching and soaking it up.

I have an 18 year old who went through public school and when he was dd's age, I spent much more time helping him with homework and to study for tests than I now spent on the sum total of her school and she knows every bit as much as he did, probably more. And without the stress induced tummy aches that he had. And he was an honor student, it wasn't that he struggled in school, but school was stressful to him. Given dd's personality, it would be for her too.

I mean no offense to anyone, but I don't see how school is a break for the child. That's like saying work is a break for me. Not really. Does it get me out of the house? Yes. Is it relaxing? Not so much.

For me personally, the getting my oldest up and to school in the mornings and to bed at night was a freaking nightmare. But some kids are morning larks and I imagine that makes it much easier! So, for me and I'm not saying it should be the same for everyone, but for me, homeschooling is easier or at least less stressful!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah. Four kids, stressful as it is (especially with ds2), is a walk in the park compared to one kid, massive financial strain, and a disintegrating marriage. DS1 was a picnic...the others aren't a picnic - but I have a functional _life_.

So true! When my oldest was little (and he was an only child for 11 years) I was in a miserable marriage, struggled financially and was just generally not happy. Fast forward, now I have four, at one point six living at home (inherited two nephews when I married dh) plus my disabled fil who lives with us, but my stress levels are so much lower because I have a happy marriage, which just makes up for anything else! Plus a stable income, that helps too! So, it's certainly not just how many kids you have. Plus ds1 was SO high needs! I knew early on that I could in no way handle him and a baby. I had to wait. DD was so freaking easy that we had ds2 19months later!! So there are life circumstances, there are the personalities of the kids and let's face it, the personality of the parent. Some people can't handle as much as others.

I had a professor say once that "everyone, if they have one child or twelve, has one more than they can competently handle" which made me laugh cuz it's kinda true. You don't realize until you are in the situation that perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Anglyn- I think this is probably one of the best posts on this subject I have ever seen. Thanks!

Thank you!!!


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## joyfulgrrrl (Jun 8, 2006)

I think it's really interesting how mothers compare experiences and one thing I do find often is this sense that we don't understand each other.

I believe that for a person experiencing parenthood for the first time, having gone from 100% selfish to a huge change in terms of priorities, yes only having one hour of quiet every day could seem really hard and overwhelming.

I have 4 kids and a full time, hugely demanding and accountable job, and a husband who is gone 75-80 hours a week. I absolutely work my arse off and I pass out at 10 p.m. every night from exhaustion.

I don't complain or brag about what it takes to run my household. I prefer to try and be an unflappable and relaxed as possible. I love it so much and I love encouraging people to not hesitate about having more children if deep down they would love to do so. Sometimes I remind my husband how much is going into keeping this family running since he is so often absent, but overall I stay pretty quiet about my home life.

I do sometimes laugh at the young kids who are freaking out with just one child and I'm always tempted to say, "hello....try living my life...you wouldn't last 24 hours" (and they probably wouldn't).

But I have learned that for them, at that moment, they really *are* feeling every bit as overwhelmed and deprived of "me time" as I sometimes feel, and that is totally okay.

I wonder if that made any sense. I feel pretty strongly about this, I hope I didn't come across badly or judging; I just have learned to re-frame things in terms like this and it really has enriched my life.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joyfulgrrrl* 
I think it's really interesting how mothers compare experiences and one thing I do find often is this sense that we don't understand each other.

I believe that for a person experiencing parenthood for the first time, having gone from 100% selfish to a huge change in terms of priorities, yes only having one hour of quiet every day could seem really hard and overwhelming.

I have 4 kids and a full time, hugely demanding and accountable job, and a husband who is gone 75-80 hours a week. I absolutely work my arse off and I pass out at 10 p.m. every night from exhaustion.

I don't complain or brag about what it takes to run my household. I prefer to try and be an unflappable and relaxed as possible. I love it so much and I love encouraging people to not hesitate about having more children if deep down they would love to do so. Sometimes I remind my husband how much is going into keeping this family running since he is so often absent, but overall I stay pretty quiet about my home life.

I do sometimes laugh at the young kids who are freaking out with just one child and I'm always tempted to say, "hello....try living my life...you wouldn't last 24 hours" (and they probably wouldn't).

But I have learned that for them, at that moment, they really *are* feeling every bit as overwhelmed and deprived of "me time" as I sometimes feel, and that is totally okay.

I wonder if that made any sense. I feel pretty strongly about this, I hope I didn't come across badly or judging; I just have learned to re-frame things in terms like this and it really has enriched my life.

I could have written most of this! Five kids at home right now, full time job, full time school, etc and was actually surprised when I started getting all the "you must be superwoman" comments! I jokingly tell them that I have adult ADHD and that's why I can't sit still!

When I was working full time to put myself through college and had a child at home, I use to silently shake my head at my fellow students or coworkers who would complain that with 12 hours of classes, they could not possibly work more than 10 hours a week! Or, how were they suppose to live on x amount of money a week (when their parents payed for everything and they were working for spending money at the same pay rate I was supporting a child on!). It's really all in your perspective you know.

I have walked into a clients home who obviously makes gobs of money and felt a little jealous only to go into another home of a client who is living it squalor and then feel bad about my earlier jealousy/ingratitude. Because those people think I"M rich, and I'm far from it! It's all in perspective.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
I came back from a playgroup with moms who, for the most part, have just one child each with a few moms of two mixed in. It seemed like the moms were all complaining about how they can't get anything done and their child doesn't take a long enough nap so they can have some down time. It irritated me since I have three little kids at home, two of whom no longer take naps, and I'm expecting again.

They have *NO* idea of your work load. The same way that _you_ had no idea before you had three kids. All they know is that their workload has increased significantly. It's all about perspective.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
It seems like the few times I've mentioned that I'm tired or overwhelmed I get unsympathetic looks and am told things like 'I'd be tired too if I was you' or 'then why are you having another'. I can't even voice a complaint but I look uncaring if I don't sympathize with the SAHMs of one who only get three hours a day to themselves.

Does anyone else feel this way?

It's quite possible that they really can't imagine why you're having another. Clearly, one child is overwhelming them, right?


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Honestly, I just find the implication that one mom has it so much harder than the other (so therefore the mom with the "easier" situation can't complain) just insulting and judgmental.

I have one child and it has been incredibly hard for me. I could write out a laundry list of reasons why, but there's no need. It's all relative. One person's difficulty could be no big deal to someone else. I KNOW moms with more kids have it very hard and that is one reason why we are only having one. We have been having that hard of a time (coupled with other reasons.)

You know, it has bothered me that maybe somehow I'm less of a mother because I feel I can only handle one, and attitudes like this don't help.

Once again, I know it must be very difficult... but that doesn't negate the struggles of moms with only one.

Something else my dh and I have often wondered, and I'm not implying that anyone on this board is doing this, is how many moms that supposedly have it easier let their kids CIO or don't put as much effort into their kids as other moms. Effort does have something to do with it. My dd hasn't slept more than 4 hours at a time (an that was only once or twice) since she was a newborn. She's 20 months.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
Honestly, I just find the implication that one mom has it so much harder than the other (so therefore the mom with the "easier" situation can't complain) just insulting and judgmental.

I totally agree. There is always someone who is going to have it worse off then you. That does not immediately invalidate your feelings.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Years ago I read about some study that showed getting married was more stressful than suffering a death in the family. Reading this thread made me realize how, as others are saying, it's really all a matter of perspective.

For some of us, becoming a parent for the first time is more stressful than adjusting to additional children. For some, going from working full time to staying home full time is more stressful than going from staying at home to working.

And for some it's the complete opposite. Different people, different perspectives, different experiences.


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## wendybird (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
Something else my dh and I have often wondered, and I'm not implying that anyone on this board is doing this, is how many moms that supposedly have it easier let their kids CIO or don't put as much effort into their kids as other moms. Effort does have something to do with it. My dd hasn't slept more than 4 hours at a time (an that was only once or twice) since she was a newborn. She's 20 months.

I don't think I would agree with this statement. The many moms who have stated to me that motherhood was "too" hard, or that they were overwhelmed have been almost exclusively non ap types. This is just anecdotal of course, but in the past 11 years of meeting and talking with other new moms that has been what I see. I certainly do not CIO, I put ALOT of effort into parenting, but I do not have a hard time. I am a very patient person, my children have been a mixed bag of high needs and very laid back. Anyhow, I am just trying to point out that to say the mom who is complaining is putting more effort into her child/ren is somewhat insulting in itself. And with that said I truly hope you are able to get some solid sleep for both of you soon! Sleep is vitally important!


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## KimL (May 16, 2009)

did you not plan on all the bebes? I'm not sure what you're looking for either. Of course you don't have an ounce of time... you have almost 4 kids!


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendybird* 
I don't think I would agree with this statement. The many moms who have stated to me that motherhood was "too" hard, or that they were overwhelmed have been almost exclusively non ap types. This is just anecdotal of course, but in the past 11 years of meeting and talking with other new moms that has been what I see. I certainly do not CIO, I put ALOT of effort into parenting, but I do not have a hard time. I am a very patient person, my children have been a mixed bag of high needs and very laid back. Anyhow, I am just trying to point out that to say the mom who is complaining is putting more effort into her child/ren is somewhat insulting in itself. And with that said I truly hope you are able to get some solid sleep for both of you soon! Sleep is vitally important!

I see what you are saying. "Effort" is another relative term and doesn't have much to do with this particular discussion. I actually almost deleted that paragraph.







I guess I was just trying to say that even "just one' can be really rough, especially with lack of sleep for a very long time. My best friend's high needs babe (in the sleep category) was her second. She could never nap, b/c she had a toddler, and then she went back to work with no sleep.

I guess I'm just really happy that she's there for me and I know she empathizes with me rather than rolling her eyes b/c it was harder for her than for me. She knows it's still hard.

And if I were less high strung, maybe I'd roll with all of it better, but unfortunately, my middle name is anxiety.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimL* 
did you not plan on all the bebes? I'm not sure what you're looking for either. Of course you don't have an ounce of time... you have almost 4 kids!

As already discussed upthread, if those of us with a bunch of kids have no right to complain about any of it, because we wanted those kids, then those with only one have no right to complain, either.

The "who has it worst?" sweepstakes does nobody any good. I'd be very upset if I were the OP...but I also don't see the point in dismissing the problems of people with only one child, either.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
As already discussed upthread, if those of us with a bunch of kids have no right to complain about any of it, because we wanted those kids, then those with only one have no right to complain, either.









That's awesome!


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