# Narcissism and authoritarian parenting...



## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Everywhere I look lately, it seems like some "expert" is decrying the behavior of kids today, blaming permissive parenting, and saying parents should be authoritarian.

You can find one link

There was another article about kids acting up at the library in an expensive suburb outside of NYC (can't remember if it was in NJ or CT, and I can't find the link now).

I agree that narcissism is a bad thing, but I don't know that these researchers are really drawing on their research when they recommend authoritarian parenting-- personally I wonder if the increasing amount of time kids spend in institutional settings is delaying maturity, and if they tested these same people in a few years, they would be significantly less narcissistic.

I hate the thought that somebody out there is reading this stuff and taking it as a pat on the back for spanking their kids.







:

ZM


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## 5in9years (Nov 18, 2005)

Having authority over your children doesn't necessarily mean spanking them. Likewise, gentle parenting doesn't mean allowing them to think they're the only person in the universe.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

But too many people think that GD is permissive. It isn't. It's about teaching your child to be part of this world in a gentle way. I personally see more permissiveness in the parents that spank. I actually saw this woman last year at the children's museum who slapped her kid around the head for hitting.







: Then she said, "Are you ready to go get a Happy Meal, honey?" I think it's these mixed signals that cause a lot of confusion for kids. That, and also that parents sometimes don't realize what appropriate behavior is for a certain age.

More than narcissism, I think they should look at how parents raise their children with a sense of entitlement. If kids think they "deserve" something because it's modeled at home, then they'll do what they can to get it.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I don't understand this post, is there supposed to be a link with permissive parenting to narcissism? Is there a missing link in this post or something?

I have interest in this because my mother, and her mother/my grandmother, suffered from some form of narcissistic personality disorder, and narcissistic mothering was a big part of my extremely dysfunctional childhood, so before embarking in this thread I would like to see this link you're talking about. Where are you getting the idea to discuss narcissism and GD from, and please provide the source, or, copy and paste it here.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Main Entry: per·mis·sive
Pronunciation: \pər-ˈmi-siv\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English permyssyf, from Middle French permissif, from Latin permissus
Date: 15th century
1archaic : granted on sufferance : tolerated
2 a: granting or tending to grant permission : tolerant b: deficient in firmness or control : indulgent, lax
3: allowing discretion : optional <reduced the permissive retirement age from 65 to 62>

Well, here's the Miriam-Webster definition. Obviously some of these definitions don't apply to GD, but I think that some of them do.

How we define these labels really depends upon our own perspective and philosophy. It seems that permissiveness carries a negative connotation as does authoritarian. But I think that most of us probably fall into these styles when necessary.

Lately I've been struggling a bit with GD. I think that sometimes my ds really needs for me to tell him how something is going to be. I always use empathy and validation of his feelings, but sometimes it's just overwhelming for him to be involved in problem-solving or negotiating...and then he sometimes starts to think everything can be negotiated.

Anyway, it's an evolving process.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Soundhunter, it seemed to me that the OP perhaps forgot to post the link...maybe she can repost??

There is a lot that can go into a narcissistic personality disorder. Often times this happens when a child isn't allowed to go through their own natural egocentric stage...I think when kids are prevented from doing this they can try to rework it later. But it's WAY more complicated than that. The fact that you're doing the work around your childhood wounds goes a long way toward breaking that cycle.

I think narcissism is a pretty strong word to use describing the outcome of a particular parenting style or philosophy. I guess it can happen though. I do wonder about how children who get used to having their desires met most of the time fare out in the real world. The reality is that we all have a lot of wants and life isn't about getting everything that you want or having things go your way. I'm not implying that GD proposes this, but it does seem that there's a lot of negotiating and it seems tricky to me with very young children.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Swampangel.

I don't think GD is to blame for self-centered children though. Permissiveness, yes. My goal is to be GD while at the same time setting firm boundaries and having authority.

I'm sure there are mutiple reasons that contribute to children's self-centeredness, but I'd guess that one of them at least is the declining role of parents in kids' lives. Everyone's so busy that family time goes by the wayside.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

This shrink has an interest in children of narcissistic parents, has written some excellent articles on the subject including how to prevent narcissistic disorders in our children, and it has nothing to do with being authoriatarian, but everything to do with allowing our children to have their own voice, something that GD naturally does.

Thanks Swampy...being parented by a narcissist is deeply damaging, thankfully, my mother passed me around te family quite a bit and didn't keep me around enough to cripple me so baddly that I'm unaware of how disordered she was, I shudder to think what I'd be if she kept me my whole childhood. A recent thing I wrote on this topic.

True narcissism is in the same family as borderline personality disorder, these disorders are known to be related to childhood trauma. A friend of mine who has borderline personality disorder told me that mothers often pass these disorders on to their children through dysfunctional mothering, I would say this was true in my family from my grandmother, though there is a genetic something or other in my family that makes us prone to high strung emotional states.

From a CNN report:


> Causes
> 
> The exact cause of narcissistic personality disorder is unknown. Researchers have identified childhood developmental factors and parenting behaviors that may contribute to the disorder:
> 
> ...


Perhaps this part "Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents" is what is being used to imply that GD creates narcissistic kids? I can see this is the parents are unhealthily obsessed with worshipping their kids, but not with most of the GD parenting I see going on around here.


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter* 
Perhaps this part "Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents" is what is being used to imply that GD creates narcissistic kids? I can see this is the parents are unhealthily obsessed with worshipping their kids, but not with most of the GD parenting I see going on around here.

The parenting style above may be the absence of discipline, which must be consistent, predictable, and fair, rather than just an occasional reaction to bad behavior.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Soundhunter, thank you for posting that information....very well said. I agree with you entirely that it is in the same realm as BPD.

And I think that most often these personality disorders come about when a parent is not doing their own work, consciously parenting and getting the help and support they need to break generational patterns.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I saw the article about increasing narcicissm. I would blame it on tv. Look at the cosmetic surgery/tooth whitening/ beauty industry growth. But tv is fueling a sort of surface narcissism I agree with what everyone has said about parenting. People now belong to less organizations. School has cut recess which means children don't have nearly as much time to build friendships at recess. My dd can't even finish her lunch during the short time allowed for lunch.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Isn't narcissism a mental health description? I thought people became narcisscistic from early childhood trauma and not having their basic needs met in an important developmental stage. Isn't that right?


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

I think what they mean by narcissism in that report is that some children have the feeling that everything revolves around them. If they're sad, tired, hungry, grumpy, etc., the world should stop and attend to their every tiny discomfort. This is fine and necessary for young children (I'd say under age 6), but at a certain point, children need to gain some perspective about the fact that other people's needs sometimes come first, and that their specific needs are not going to be the top priority of everyone else on the planet. I've seen this on my son's soccer team -- kids who think the world should end because they fell down, are cold, whatever.

When the adults around you go on and on about your special specialness, and don't dare discipline you or give you a reality check (child, you will not die if you are a bit chilly for 5 minutes while I diaper this baby) for fear of harming your emotional well-being, then you may start to believe you're the center of the world. Children who are treated like that (NOT how I would describe GD at all) are destined to find reality to be v. harsh at each new developmental stage, when they realize that they are but a small fish in a very big pond, and nobody but their parents cares about their special specialness and transient minor discomforts.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
Isn't narcissism a mental health description? I thought people became narcisscistic from early childhood trauma and not having their basic needs met in an important developmental stage. Isn't that right?

Yes, it is a mental health disorder (a personality disorder). And I agree with Kate that they are using it in a less diagnostic way in this article.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
When the adults around you go on and on about your special specialness, and don't dare discipline you or give you a reality check (child, you will not die if you are a bit chilly for 5 minutes while I diaper this baby) for fear of harming your emotional well-being, then you may start to believe you're the center of the world. Children who are treated like that (NOT how I would describe GD at all) are destined to find reality to be v. harsh at each new developmental stage, when they realize that they are but a small fish in a very big pond, and nobody but their parents cares about their special specialness and transient minor discomforts.

I think this describes to me what it looks like when parents continue with the AP style of parenting with babies well into the childhood years. What I mean by this is following their lead on just about everything. I have a friend who does this and it means that her ds goes to bed whenever he wants, eat whenever and whatever he wants, watches TV whenever he wants to and goes out of the house to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. I think this is taking things to an extreme that isn't necessarily great for the child. Doing this with a baby makes perfect sense to me - nursing on demand, holding when they want to be held, etc. But when a child grows older, I don't think this style serves them very well.

I totally adhere to AP with older children, but I think it takes on a different look and feel than it does when they are babies.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I think this is taking things to an extreme that isn't necessarily great for the child. Doing this with a baby makes perfect sense to me - nursing on demand, holding when they want to be held, etc. But when a child grows older, I don't think this style serves them very well.

I totally adhere to AP with older children, but I think it takes on a different look and feel than it does when they are babies.

I agree completely. This is one of the few forums where I really disagree with some posters' views. For me, it's important that DS1 (9) understand that sometimes there are things we do as adults that maybe we don't really *want* to do, but are really good for us anyway. I don't like cleaning the house most days, but I do it because it needs to be done in order to have the kind of living environment I want. I expect the same from him when it comes to chores and homework. He may not *want* to do them and some people here would suggest that he should be able to opt out, but that just doesn't feel like responsible parenting to me. I can see how narcisism could be a problem if I taught him that I would "pick up the slack" if he didn't feel like doing his work. For me, AP is about creating and fostering a bond with my kids - I respect his feelings, but it's also my job as his mom to step in and insist on things I know are going to serve him well in the future.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Yes, it is a mental health disorder (a personality disorder). And I agree with Kate that they are using it in a less diagnostic way in this article.

I agree with this. I read the article (I can't find the link now) but my impression was that they were using a far looser definition of narcissism than the DSM's Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I remember one of the diagnostic questions they asked the college students was "Would the world be a better place if YOU were in charge?" as indicative of narcissism. To me, answering "yes" to this question is indicative of being a college student. I remember when I thought I had all (or most, anyway) of the answers to society's woes.

However, I agree with PP's that sometimes GD can be applied very permissively, with the child growing up with the idea that his needs and wants are somehow more important than anyone else's because parents would give up their own needs and desires to accomodate the child's on a regular basis.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

well said, the only people who know more than college kids are probably the high school kids


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Soundhunter, it seemed to me that the OP perhaps forgot to post the link...maybe she can repost??.

Ooops-- I really thought I included the link-- sorry! I'll try again:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007..._112_26_07.txt

Anyhow, my frustration is that I see "authoritarian parenting" as being "because I said so" parenting, and I wish they wouldn't act like there are only two choices, authoritarian or permissive.

ITA about indulging kids' special specialness, though most of the kids I know with that kind of childhood figure out on their own (the HARD WAY, sometime in their teens) that they'd better knock it off if they want any friends.

All in all, I wonder if the self-esteem movement has changed what people think are the right answers to these questions-- particularly "I am special" and "I can live my life anyway I want". If you don't think about what those statements are really saying, it might be easy to check "true", especially if you've been taught that you SHOULD think you're special. I think TV could be part of it too-- apparently celebrities tend to score very high on the narcissism index, and since we know oh so much about how celebrities live nowadays, it's easier for more impressionable people (like lots of 20 year olds) to imitate them.

I hate these news items that suggest we're all going to hell in a handbasket and suggest big changes based on one piece of data.

ZM


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
Anyhow, my frustration is that I see "authoritarian parenting" as being "because I said so" parenting, and I wish they wouldn't act like there are only two choices, authoritarian or permissive.

YES, that frustrates me, too. I've been guilty of using that kind of language, but now that I think about it, I do think that I'm usually the "authority" in my home & by that I don't mean I'm an evil dictator, shaming and smacking my kids with wild abandon. It means that, in most cases, I have more experience and more responsibilty, so I get to veto the kids on certain things. On the other hand, I try not to think that I'm the authority over my children's emotions, needs and desires. I defer to them on those matters because I respect them as people, even if I think I "know better" than they do, the truth is that they are the experts on how they feel and what they think, not me.
We try to find a balance between what I know works for our family (like going to bed at a reasonable hour and not eating ice cream for dinner) and what the kids want (like DS wearing his chicken costume to bed instead of PJs or eating chicken soup for breakfast).


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
Anyhow, my frustration is that I see "authoritarian parenting" as being "because I said so" parenting, and I wish they wouldn't act like there are only two choices, authoritarian or permissive.

I think they are referring to the three styles of parenting (authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive, if I've got them right). "Because I said so" falls under authoritative. GD falls under either authoritarian or permissive, depending on the style (authoritarian style takes the needs, desires, and individuality of the child into account, but ultimately the parent makes the final decision. Of the three styles, it is the one that requires the most interaction with the child and the most give and take between parent and child).


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I think you've got "authoritarian" and "authoritative" switched in your otherwise excellent description.







Authoritarian is the dictatorial style; authoritative is the middle ground where the parent is in charge but treats the child with respect.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
I think you've got "authoritarian" and "authoritative" switched in your otherwise excellent description.







Authoritarian is the dictatorial style; authoritative is the middle ground where the parent is in charge but treats the child with respect.

Thanks! I always get them mixed up.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Also, I couldn't find the word "authoritarian" in that article, which didn't surprise me, as I don't think anyone but Ezzo's been recommending it for decades now. They were recommending authoritative parenting.

Quote:

Authoritative parents are both demanding and responsive. "They monitor and impart clear standards for their children's conduct. They are assertive, but not intrusive and restrictive. Their disciplinary methods are supportive, rather than punitive. They want their children to be assertive as well as socially responsible, and self-regulated as well as cooperative" (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62).


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

I have interest in this because my mother, and her mother/my grandmother, suffered from some form of narcissistic personality disorder, and narcissistic mothering was a big part of my extremely dysfunctional childhood

Narcissism: Love of or sexual desire for one's own body.
How is that a parenting style??!!!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mike* 
I have interest in this because my mother, and her mother/my grandmother, suffered from some form of narcissistic personality disorder, and narcissistic mothering was a big part of my extremely dysfunctional childhood

Narcissism: Love of or sexual desire for one's own body.
How is that a parenting style??!!!

Mike, do some reading so that you can know what you're talking about.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I think this describes to me what it looks like when parents continue with the AP style of parenting with babies well into the childhood years. What I mean by this is following their lead on just about everything. I have a friend who does this and it means that her ds goes to bed whenever he wants, eat whenever and whatever he wants, watches TV whenever he wants to and goes out of the house to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. I think this is taking things to an extreme that isn't necessarily great for the child. Doing this with a baby makes perfect sense to me - nursing on demand, holding when they want to be held, etc. But when a child grows older, I don't think this style serves them very well.

I totally adhere to AP with older children, but I think it takes on a different look and feel than it does when they are babies.

Of course I follow my child's lead. She knows best when she is hungry/sleepy/has a need. I also use my wise momma skills to guide my child through her development..

I am one of those parents who "lets" her 3 1/2 year old for the most part go to bed whenever she wants, eat whatever she wants, whenever she wants, watch TV, play outside, and play whenever/whatever she wants.

I do not consider myself overly permissive. I like to describe it as we live in a "yes" house. DD has a self in the pantry and a space in the fridge that she is welcome to go to whenever she wants. I stock it with food that is OK for whenever. Sometimes there might be a choice that is a treat. But I buy the food, so ultimately I decide what she eats. DD has toys in different areas of the house she can play with when she wants, including messy paint and an easel. If she wants to play outside we have a fenced yard so why not? Everyone ion the house goes to bed when they are sleepy. Why shouldn't DD? Most times she asks to go to sleep before I am ready but there are times I am sleepy first so I go in first and she joins me when she is ready. All of this works for us.

I just don't get the value of saying no for the sake of saying no.

DD is asked to do things that she is not in the mood for probably everyday. She cleans up toys, helps with meals, picks up clothes, brushes her hair and teeth etc... She also has to share the TV and computer. We take turns. Sometimes she has to wait before she gets what she wants. Sometimes the answer is no.

I don't think we are permissive parents. Our parenting is just not as strict/structured as many others.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
personally I wonder if the increasing amount of time kids spend in institutional settings is delaying maturity, and if they tested these same people in a few years, they would be significantly less narcissistic.

Nah, not in my case. In my case I was very AP, but also, stupidly permissive.







I didn't know any better. I was raised in a authoritarian household (to the extreme) and to avoid THAT, I went the other extreme.









So my 7 year old and I are still dealing with this and I'm better than I was 4 years ago, but I still struggle.

This is what I see in him, particularly when he is around me.







: With everyone else (thank goodness) he is cool.

Diana Baumrind and Parenting Styles (A very good document.)

Permissive Parenting
poor emotion regulation (under regulated)








rebellious and defiant when desires are challenged.








low persistence to challenging tasks (Opposite, he is VERY self-motivated and persistent (which is wonderful) in sports (he's very kinesthetic) and academics (trying hard to master writing and reading)
antisocial behaviors







Thank heavens, no.

BTW, most of my AP friends are/were NOT permissive. It was just me.

I have more to add, but it's bathtime.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

A Comparison of 4 Approaches to Discipline (I went to a workshop of hers. She has been published in Mothering.)
by Aletha Solter
http://www.awareparenting.com/

AUTHORITARIAN (VIOLENT)
*Who has the power?* Parents
*Type of control?* Control by physical or verbal abuse
*Methods used:* Hitting, spanking, threatening, yelling, humiliating, blaming, critizing
*Home atmosphere:* Tense, rigid, oppressive
*What children learn:* Blind obedience to authority,violence, competitiveness, lying, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Angry, hostile, scared, powerless, low self-esteem
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children rebel, leave, or "act out" (fights, drugs, etc.), become hurtful to others; parents run out of control

AUTHORITARIAN (NON-VIOLENT)
*Who has the power?* Parents
*Type of control?* Control by material & emotional means
*Methods used:* Rewards: money, privileges, treats, hugs, praise, attention Punishments: loss of privileges, isolation, withdrawal of love & attention, making child feel guilty
*Home atmosphere:* Orderly, consistent
*What children learn:* Conformity, apple-polishing, deviousness, competitiveness, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Resentful, angry, misunderstood, manipulated
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children withdraw emotionally, rebel, search elsewhere for unconditional love; parents run out of power

PERMISSIVE
*Who has the power?* Children
*Type of control?* No control
*Methods used:* Pleading, bribing, nagging, yielding, lecturing, waiting, self-sacrificing, rescuing, neglecting
*Home atmosphere:* Chaotic, inconsistent
*What children learn:* How to manipulate other, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Confused, guilty, insecure
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children are selfish, dependent, demanding, irresponsible; parents resent the children.

DEMOCRATIC
*Who has the power?* Everybody
*Type of control?* Self-control
*Methods used:* Unconditional love, modeling, encouragement, filling needs, listening to feelings, natural consequences, problem solving, family meetings
*Home atmosphere:* Relaxed, orderly
*What children learn:* Self-discipline, responsibility, problem-solving skills, respect, cooperation
*How children may feel:* Love & respect between parents & children; no need for children to rebel or withdraw

Solter said most people go back and forth (like a ping pong) between the first 3 styles (say 2 parents - one parent does it one way, another parent does it another way).

The ideal/goal is Democratic.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

BC, I agree with you that they are referring to the 3 styles, and your description are right on. But I think you may possibly have your labels swapped.









- Authoritarian is the harsh, overly-controling end of the spectrum. All control, no empathy. Coloroso calls it brick wall parenting.
- Authoritative is a balance of structure and empathy. Backbone parenting.
- Permissive parenting is very empathetic and relationship based, but without limits or dependable structure. Jellyfish parenting.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Good gosh. A bunch of people posted at the same time that I did, and it doesn't make any sense now! Sorry BC.


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