# Trying to understand... toys at the playground



## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I have not yet read Unconditional Parenting, but have several aquaintances who are very into it. One said something on her blog recently that she never takes a toy away from her child if he snatches it from another child at the playground. When I see her next, I think I'll ask her about it, but maybe in the meantime someone can explain this to me.

If your child takes a toy from another child... wouldn't you require them to give it back if it belongs to the other child or the other child had it first? I can see talking to your child and encouraging them to give it back, explaining that their snatching has upset the other child ... but in the end, would you really just say "oh well, he doesn't want to give it up?" I don't understand this at all, and I don't think it's appropriate in a playground setting particularly.

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over. But playgrounds are different. In a playground setting, I think I would take the toy from the snatching child, and give it back to my child. And I would avoid the snatching child as best we could after that. If the parent got upset, well, I'm following the child's logic exactly (snatch toy, now it's mine to do as I like), and if she had no problem with her child employing it, then why would she have a problem with an adult employing it?

Also, if her child didn't want to give up a toy my family owns when we're leaving the playground, I'm still going to take it home with me in the end. If her child keeps it, it's robbery or theft as far as I can see.

So someone give me the other side of this scenario, please.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I would encourage my child to give the toy back. If they could not do that, I would give it back for them.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I would encourage my child to give the toy back. If they could not do that, I would give it back for them.









:


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Which makes perfect sense to me... but what I got from the post (which of course, is a blog post and probably not thought through like this) is that she would NEVER give it back. That concept just keeps bumping around in my brain today and I can't figure it out.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I would encourage my child to give the toy back. If they could not do that, I would give it back for them.
Okay I get that and agree (assuming I'm not trying to encourage my child forever) but what does "give it back for them look like" At times here it looks like Mommy prys toy away from toddler death grip. Mommy gives back toy as toddler screaming and trying to snach said toy back. Mommy get to half drag her very mad toddler to a safer spot and try her best to reflect and redirrect.

Quote:

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over
I've found especially for toddlers a lot of these strugles can be prevented by playing with them. I encourage a lot of independent play but truth is a toddler really doesn't interact as "adults do" their is a lot of parrall play and thir minds are still into the "its mine " thing. SO play dates around here means mommy gets involved and sits with them or provides activies that both can play "together yet apart" like providing paper and crayons (each its own set) or plaing games where we take turns and helping make it happed, Things still happen of course but it certainly helps.

Deanna


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

nothing that I have read from alfie kohn would imply that if your child takes another childs toy that they shouldn't give it back.
*shrugs* sometimes people misinterpret him.
I teach my children that they need to take turns but also that they need to respect other peoples things. for a 2, this would mean...helping the child give the toy back, "sara has that toy, you can have this toy." and then also letting the child know that they would like to play with the toy that sara has when she is done.

in our house, even if the toy belings to dd4 but she wasn't playing with it at the time, then dd2 can have a turn...the exceotion is for their lovey items, those are not shared. there are things we share as a family but there are a few things that are just mine or hubbies.


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

Maybe she would wait for the other mother to ask for the toy back in which case the child would probably give it back. That sure would feel strange though.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Octobermom~yes I would take the toy from my child and give it back, and then move to a quiet place with my child where they could vent any anger/frustration. I would be very calm and supportive of my child, with lots of explaining. There would be nothing punitive or angry in my manner.

I personally believe that people have a right to their own property. So for me it's a matter of fairness. My personal experience is that this particular concept makes sense to children from a very early age. Not so young as 2 or even 3, but by 4 most kids can appreciate the problem with taking a toy from someone who is using it. I'd say by 5 or 6 it's just a matter of reminding them, not having to explain anything (assuming it's a kid who's parents explained the concept all along).

Letting the second child keep the toy reflects a belief system I just don't share.

Additionally, there is the option of "let them fight it out for themselves" which feels neglectful of my commitment to guide and teach my child how to live in the world.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Katie, I don't take toys away from ds (28 months) when he's taken them from another child, but this doesn't mean I allow him to keep it and don't say anything. I usually ask ds who had the toy, (and he tells me the other child had it,) then I tell him he needs to give it back. He often says, "No. I'm playing with it right now." I then say, "I know you want to play with it, but so-and-so had it and you need to give it back." Then I wait. After a short time, if he still hasn't given it back, I say it again, "You need to give it back." He always gives it back on his own, without me physically taking it from him. I'm not sure what I would do if he didn't give it back; I haven't encountered that situation yet, (although I'm sure it's only a matter of time.)

I have found in the past that if I try to take something from ds, he clutches it even tighter, (surprise, surprise,) but if I give him time to comply, without being forceful with him, he will do what I ask without putting up a fuss.

I do a lot of waiting.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Additionally, there is the option of "let them fight it out for themselves" which feels neglectful of my commitment to guide and teach my child how to live in the world.

I think there is a time when children need to work to resolve conflict on their own. I wouldn't say, "Let them fight it out for themselves," but I do let them try to work it out on their own sometimes, watching in case my guidance is needed. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Abac what I had in mind was a couple of two years olds crying and clinging to the same toy. Left to their own at that age, "might makes right" tends to be the operating principle that wins without adult intervention.

Quote:

He always gives it back on his own, without me physically taking it from him.
I would give every chance for this to happen too. Giving the toy back myself would be a last resort.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I would give every chance for this to happen too. Giving the toy back myself would be a last resort.
But how long do you ask and wait?? If my child took something that belonged to another child that means the other child is with out his/her toy that she has to wait around while my child decides. I'm all for modeling appropoate behavior being patient but I also think their quickly becomes the moment where not returning property is just mean and inconsiderate to the other child. Another question would you (gently of course) take back a toy from the other child (assuming the parent is aither not around or doesn't care a situation we often have around the appartments)


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

Possession and grabbing and sharing are such tough issues, especially here at home with my girls, ages 4 and 18 months. In theory, I would like to model appropriate behaviour for my dd's by not grabbing toys no matter how badly I want them (to give back to their rightful owner/user). And really, for kids who have not yet formed an idea in their head of what is right and moral and what isn't, their desire to have to toy so badly that they grab it isn't any different than your desire to have to tpy so badly that you grabbed it from them.

That said, it's hard to stick to when you can't always encourage the child to return it. Things I have done that have worked include suggesting, in as non-threatening way as I can, "I can help you give it back", which may involve guiding the child's arm in the right direction. I also encourage bartering if one child is playing with something the other is trying to grab, but I guess that's more preventative. I have resorted to prying, and probably threats, too. I hate to, but I agree it's not fair to the other child. It's not easy, really.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.

This is the sort of thing I'm envisioning... I don't know if I'd have that kind of patience, honestly, and I don't think I'd be very nice to the boy or his mother while she encouraged him to give it back. I wouldn't want my dd to learn to snatch toys back. I'd probably rather her learn that I'll take toys away from another child if necessary than have her learn that she has to snatch them back on her own.

It's totally possible that what my acquantaince meant was that she'd never HAD to make her child give a toy back, that he'd always returned it on his own. But I gotta get dd off to bed!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=grab Post #8 This link is about aggression vs. standing up for yourself. It also discusses modelling communication and conflict resolution skills for children having difficulty sharing.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post5762126 Post #6 This thread is about children having conflicts over toys and interpreting those physical messages as a child needing space, support or modelling of effective sharing.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post4452743 Post #3 This thread discusses possessions and "threats to property rights" and "possessiveness". It also mentions the dangers of early socialization of toddlers to peers as role models.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=501967 Post #2 This thread discusses children using physicality to communicate underlying needs and helping the child to meet those needs in mutually agreeable manners.

Pat


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Pat, those are interesting, but they're really geared more toward playdates, where one family or the other owns the space and the toys and they intend to get together. I'm mostly confused confused about such behavior at the playground, a public space. The child snatching toys is the one whose parent needs to distract him or meet his needs in some other way, imo, not the child whose property is being, in effect, stolen.

No one here has back yards, so playgrounds are for everyone, and kids take their toys there. I usually discourage taking real lovies, but you know, dd sometimes says her doll wants to go to the playground to play too. I don't think of it as a socialization activity for her, it's physical exertion.

I don't expect my dd to share her toys that she takes to the playground, anymore than I expect to share the book I'm reading with a stranger at the park. I also don't expect other kids to forcibly take her stuff, and their parents let them do that, any more than I expect someone to steal my book and have the police just shrug and say "well, he doesn't feel like giving it back yet."


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Curious not snarky--why wouldn't you want your daughter to learn to take her own toys back? I see it as her learning to defend herself. I won't always be there. I mean, literally, I won't always be there so I won't always be there to take her toys back for her. I actually saw it like she was secure enough to take her toy back.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.

I would be too (although I would prefer the other child returned the taken toy in a more timely manner). I'm curious, what was the other childs response to having the toy taken back?


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

After she took the toy, both kids stopped fighting.They had both been yelling and then my daughter grabbed the toy. In the moment of silence I picked her up and we found something else to do for a few minutes.

Sharing when kids are this little, is so hard anyway. There are so many takes on what is fair and what's not fair. I probably drive other moms nuts. Our family rule is that if my daughter has a toy or is using a swing or whatever, it is her turn until she is done. Lots of moms want to time turns--Jimmy's turn for five minutes, dd turn for five minutes--but we just don't do that. If my daughter is in the swing, say, and someone wants to use it, I will ask my daughter if she is done and if she's not, I'll say, "She's using it right now. I'll let you know when she's done." And then I make sure I DO let the child know when she is done.
I know, though, lots of moms don't approve of this.

Also, about my dd taking the toy back, I really want her to be able to stand up for herself. My whole life I've struggled to stand up for myself and I don't want that for her.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
Curious not snarky--why wouldn't you want your daughter to learn to take her own toys back? I see it as her learning to defend herself. I won't always be there. I mean, literally, I won't always be there so I won't always be there to take her toys back for her. I actually saw it like she was secure enough to take her toy back.

I get that, actually. I want my daughter to learn to stand up for herself, so maybe I would be okay with her snatching a toy back. It hasn't happened yet, honestly, I was just thinking about it b/c of an acquaintance's post. Definitely more to think about!


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I just wanted to add my thoughts about a child snatching a toy back. While I can see this happening and certainly being a solution, I think it would be a far better solution if the child were encouraged to ask for the toy back rather than snatching it back.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
But how long do you ask and wait?? If my child took something that belonged to another child that means the other child is with out his/her toy that she has to wait around while my child decides.

I don't usually have to wait too long. He is usually pretty quick to comply. I don't force it, and I don't stand there repeating myself, but I do gently insist.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.

I find in situations such as this it's helpful to speak calmly with the child who is waiting, explaining to them that they will get their toy back in a moment and encouraging them to ask for their toy back. And while I don't think it's fair, children (and adults) will sometimes be frustrated by the actions of others. I would try to see this as an opportunity to help the child learn to cope with frustration and learn some problem solving skills.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.


I don't understand this "waiting" stuff at all. Now don't get me wrong. I don't think you should beat the child and snatch things away from them in a mean way or yell, but I also don't think it is teaching them anything to make the other child wait and cry, either.

I think I would encourage them to give it back, or gently tell them to do so. If they did not do it within a small amount of time, I would take it from them as gently as possible and give it back to the other child.

I am glad your daughter stood up for herself.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I think there is a time when children need to work to resolve conflict on their own. I wouldn't say, "Let them fight it out for themselves," but I do let them try to work it out on their own sometimes, watching in case my guidance is needed. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.









: I think it depends on the situation. I would react depending on how the children were acting. If the child who had the toy taken away didn't seem to care, then I probably wouldn't do anything. If he was angry or upset, I would probably take it from my son to give it back. But, I do like to give the child in question a chance to try to get it back on his own and give my son a chance to either give it back or put it down on his own too.

I agree that experience is the best teacher - both for the kids involved and for the parents. This is one of those things that I was really right on top of with my oldest and I think I overreacted often. So many times a parent stepping in can make a situation worse. I agree with the pp who said that toddlers don't look at this kind of situation the same as adults or older children do. I am so much more relaxed on this issue with my youngest and it rarely is a problem because I don't see it as one. Just part of toddler behavior.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.

I love this! I think this is the perfect example of giving children the opportunity to work it out for themselves. Also, instead of focusing on "that other child is so mean, what can we do to make his mom snatch the toy from him to give it back to my, not mean, child" it focuses on what you can help your child learn to resolve these situations him/herself. Often the kids just figure it out for themselves. That, really, is the most important thing, whether your child is the toy snatcher or the victim of a toy snatcher (and they all will be both at some point).

So, instead of stewing over another mom who doesn't snatch a toy from her child to give back to yours, try to teach your child to be proactive. Snatching a toy back isn't the only answer. Often, kids are just as happy to find something else to play with or to begin to learn how to negotiate a trade.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I just wanted to add my thoughts about a child snatching a toy back. While I can see this happening and certainly being a solution, I think it would be a far better solution if the child were encouraged to ask for the toy back rather than snatching it back.I don't usually have to wait too long. He is usually pretty quick to comply. I don't force it, and I don't stand there repeating myself, but I do gently insist.I find in situations such as this it's helpful to speak calmly with the child who is waiting, explaining to them that they will get their toy back in a moment and encouraging them to ask for their toy back. And while I don't think it's fair, children (and adults) will sometimes be frustrated by the actions of others. I would try to see this as an opportunity to help the child learn to cope with frustration and learn some problem solving skills.

I have to ask this, but why should the child whose toy was snatched/taken have to "ask" for it back or wait? What am I not understanding here?

I have three kids so its not like I havent ever dealt with this, but if a child takes a toy away from my daughter or son, why should they have to wait? I mean its *their* toy?

And shouldnt the child who took the toy have to learn a lesson in frustration too? That not everything is theirs? That they cant always have what they want?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
I don't understand this "waiting" stuff at all. Now don't get me wrong. I don't think you should beat the child and snatch things away from them in a mean way or yell, but I also don't think it is teaching them anything to make the other child wait and cry, either.

But it's not like the kid is just playing with the toy while the other child is waiting and crying. The mom is working with the kid, discussing solutions and providing information (largely about the other child who is waiting and crying, in my experience).

See, I think it's teaching them sharing--real sharing, where you *voluntarily* offer up something to someone else. Forcing someone's hand (figuratively or literally, here) isn't sharing, in my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
I think I would encourage them to give it back, or gently tell them to do so. If they did not do it within a small amount of time, I would take it from them as gently as possible and give it back to the other child.

Is it OK for the children to do this? Ask another kid for something, wait a few seconds, and then take it--however gently? I just don't think this is the right thing to do--for anyone. I know I wouldn't want it done to me.

I've had lots of success encouraging turn taking, offering trades, finding ways for both kids to use a toy simultaneously.

I have not had success prying things out of my kids' hands--it works, in that it gets the item to the other person quickly. But, there is some fallout that I don't think is worth it: resentment, anger, selfishness, and a real lack of generosity. I try *really* hard not to do the prying thing--I don't think it teaches what we think it does.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*

So, instead of stewing over another mom who doesn't snatch a toy from her child to give back to yours, try to teach your child to be proactive. Snatching a toy back isn't the only answer. Often, kids are just as happy to find something else to play with or to begin to learn how to negotiate a trade.

But wy should a child have to negotiate for his own toy?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think many people in this thread are picturing slightly different situations. My reaction would be swifter if we were walking through the mall and my toddler snatched a toy from a passing stroller.

If I were with a casual friend at the park, I would spend a minute hoping to help my child learn to give the toy back willingly.

If it was a playdate with a very close friend with the same parenting approach, I might spend several minutes on the issue, hoping to help my child learn new skills from the work of giving the toy back willingly.

Quote:

But wy should a child have to negotiate for his own toy?
When it comes to friends and family, I think "negotiating" property is a lifelong skill. Friends who borrow clothes without asking, siblings who take your car without permission, neighbors who help themselves to lawn equipment in your yard. Real life isn't black and white. There is real skill in learning to assert your expectations without losing sight of the relationship involved.

To me the "negotiating" here would be the child saying "I was playing with that. Please give it back". At that point if the other child won't, I would intervene and spend at most a minute helping the child give the toy back...then giving it back for them if they couldn't.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

See, I think it's teaching them sharing--real sharing, where you *voluntarily* offer up something to someone else. Forcing someone's hand (figuratively or literally, here) isn't sharing, in my opinion.
That is not sharing not even close.

Quote:

where you *voluntarily* offer up something to someone else.
Except one key thing Its not theirs to offer







:


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
When it comes to friends and family, I think "negotiating" property is a lifelong skill.

Ditto. Also, you can't control what other mom's do or don't do. And, you can't control how their children, or even your own child is going to act in this situation. You can control yourself. You can hopefully teach your child some skills to deal with situations like this as they come up and maybe the other child will learn somthing as a result. Teaching your child to negotiate teaches them to think before they react. I mean, you can sit there all day and wait for the other mom to do what you think she is "supposed" to do, but that doesn't mean she is going to. So, why not teach your child to negotiate? It's about raising a thinking child. It's about teaching your child that instead of having a meltdown and waiting for the adults around her to fix the problem, she can take a deep breath and think "ok, what can I do to fix this?" It's about teaching her she has options. Obviously, a two year old isn't going to be a pro at this. Many kids and adults can't even do this. But, if this is something that you want for your children, then this is a good place to start.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I could seriously do without the hostility.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I agree that negotiating is a life long skill. However, no one has answered my question. Whys should a child have to negotiate for something thats his and was taken/snatched from him? It seems to me that the only one here that needs to be taught a skill is the snatcher.

Quote:

That is not sharing not even close.
ITA.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I agree that negotiating is a life long skill. However, no one has answered my question. Whys should a child have to negotiate for something thats his and was taken/snatched from him? It seems to me that the only one here that needs to be taught a skill is the snatcher.

So, if your child is the one who had a toy snatched away, who is going to teach that lesson to the snatcher? Why shouldn't a child learn to negotiate for his own toy back? Toddlers don't see things the way we do. They think all the toys are theirs. Even the child who snatched it thinks this way. If it looks interesting, it's theirs, even if it's not. I always remember the toddler creed "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine."


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
So, if your child is the one who had a toy snatched away, who is going to teach that lesson to the snatcher? Why shouldn't a child learn to negotiate for his own toy back?

Why? Because its his toy! He shouldnt have to negotiate for something thats rightfully his! The only one that needs a lesson learned is the snatcher. Hopefully his mother/father/caregiver would step up and deal with it, but otherwise my child and or myself would have to do it.

Only rarely have I had to step in. I told the other child that its not his toy and he had to give it back. he didnt so my child took care of it by taking it back







I remember the other mom being pissed! And her kid took my sons toy! WTF!


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Why? Because its his toy! He shouldnt have to negotiate for something thats rightfully his! The only one that needs a lesson learned is the snatcher. Hopefully his mother/father/caregiver would step up and deal with it, but otherwise my child and or myself would have to do it.

Only rarely have I had to step in. I told the other child that its not his toy and he had to give it back. he didnt so my child took care of it by taking it back







I remember the other mom being pissed! And her kid took my sons toy! WTF!

I guess I just don't see it that way. Sure, it might be his toy, but I think that if you are going to be in a situation where there are other children, you wouldn't bring anything precious. In group play situations, all the toys are kind of up for grabs, in my opinion. If you bring it, expect for it to be played with by all. Nothing is more interesting or fun to play with as another kid's toy. I think teaching the "it's mine and you can't have it!" line of thinking is really teaching your child to be selfish. And while I don't believe in forced sharing, I also don't believe in forced not-sharing, with every child selfishly hording their own pile of toys.

And, again, I don't understand why NOT teach a child to negotiate? I don't think solving a problem of inappropriate force by using inapporpriate force teaches anyone anything valuable. Why not teach your child to think about a solution, to use words to communicate and hopefully come to an understanding with the other child? Who does that hurt?


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I have to ask this, but why should the child whose toy was snatched/taken have to "ask" for it back or wait? What am I not understanding here?

I have three kids so its not like I havent ever dealt with this, but if a child takes a toy away from my daughter or son, why should they have to wait? I mean its *their* toy?

And shouldnt the child who took the toy have to learn a lesson in frustration too? That not everything is theirs? That they cant always have what they want?

The goal (in my eyes) is to get the toy back. Asking for it back often works and is easy and non-confrontational. It is always my first choice. Waiting a moment while the other child agrees to give the toy back is not always fun, but such is life. I don't mean that to sound like the child should suck-it-up and get over it, but it is a fact that we are all frustrated sometimes.

As for the child who took the toy, I don't personally believe that children should HAVE to learn lessons about anything. I think that they do learn lessons from life experience and it is my job to guide them and help them along the way. If a child is frustrated, it is a prime opportunity to help them learn ways to deal with frustration. Assuming the child who took the toy is not frustrated, it is not the time to learn a lesson in frustration.

Each child can learn something about co-operation and problem solving here. They will not neccessarily learn the same thing. It's not about who's right or wrong, or what is fair or not.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

It doesnt hurt anything. And i agree with teaching negotiating skills. But i am just not so sure that a bunch of toddlers on the playground are going to be open to it. And what bugs me is that the child whose toy is snatched has to do alot of the understanding the waiting and the so called negotiating and its his toy and he didnt do anything! its his! The kid with the bigger lesson to be learned would be the child who took something that wasnt his.

Quote:

I think teaching the "it's mine and you can't have it!" line of thinking is really teaching your child to be selfish
But isnt the child that snatched the toy away being selfish? That its "all about him"? But the bottom line is.....it is another childs toy. He took something that wasnt his.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
They will not neccessarily learn the same thing. It's not about who's right or wrong, or what is fair or not.

So when another child takes my sons toy from him thats fair? Thats right? That my son has to negotiate to get something back thats his and was taken from him? So what happpens when this kid is 16? or 18? Is he going to go through life taking whats not his because he wants it? and what about kids that dont have good "negotiating" skills? are they SOL?
People that go into my garage and take my lawnmower are stealing. They take my hedge clippers and its considered theft if they didnt ask. This is not OK.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I guess I just don't see it that way. Sure, it might be his toy, but I think that if you are going to be in a situation where there are other children, you wouldn't bring anything precious. In group play situations, all the toys are kind of up for grabs, in my opinion. If you bring it, expect for it to be played with by all.
Honestly thats not your decession to make I have and my child has every right to have her special doll (or hatever) at the park and not have another child grab it from her just like I can bring my book or kitting out and expect noones going to take that. I can expect that if MY child brings X and Y as toys that others might want to play with it I can model and encourage sharing and turn taking with MY child. Its totally not my place to insist others especially ones weve never meet to follow the same standards.

Quote:

The goal (in my eyes) is to get the toy back. Asking for it back often works and is easy and non-confrontational. It is always my first choice. Waiting a moment while the other child agrees to give the toy back is not always fun, but such is life. I don't mean that to sound like the child should suck-it-up and get over it, but it is a fact that we are all frustrated sometimes.
Ohh ITTA to a point and I don't want to sound like I'm encouraging anyone to just stach the toy from their child saying NO NOT YOURS! We also ask to give it back and give appropiate time for her to do so. Though I will not say. Would you like to give X back I do say that needs to be returned and we help her do it in a "kind" way. My issue is not wiht 90% of confortations I've encountered or seen where mom takes a minute or so.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

I think that if a child snatches a toy from another child, and then an adult steps in and takes the toy back to the first child, this is just the grown-up demonstrating the exact 'snatching' behavour they are trying to discourage, which is really confusing to the kids, especially as they adult often accompanies this snatching with comments along the lines of "we dont snatch!"

I dont think toddlers are really able to figure out this contradictory behavior.

Of course, I expect toddlers to give back snatched toys, and try to create situations where snatching doesnt occur, but I always go about it without any forcing.

In Tel Aviv, I'm part of a group of mothers who AP that made a play-group that meets twice weekly in the park and we never had big snatching issues, since everyone there was on board with GD and not forcing.

If fact, my dd, now 3 1/3 just started going 8 hours/week to a daycare and the teachers are constantly commenting to me on how she is the most amazing "share-er" they have ever seen.









I think a part of the problems so many parents of todlers face in playgrounds is that all of the kids are coming from different parenting styles and philosophies.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Sweetbaby3 I think what I'm confused about is the alternative you suggest to the first child saying "I was using that. Please give it back". If you feel that is an unfair burden, then what would be fair?


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Both times my dd DID ask for her toy(special animal, actually) back. It's just the second time, after she asked and the mom started doing the thing where she was waiting for her son to be ready, she snatched it back after a minute of this.
She's a smart girl. She saw her words were getting her nowhere and she remembered what happened last time.

About different rules. That's what I was trying to bring up earlier. Lots of families have the rule where if the child brings a toy, she has to share with everyone. We don't have that rule. Her special things are hers. I'm sure it bugs some parents but I'm doing what works for my daughter.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
So when another child takes my sons toy from him thats fair? Thats right? That my son has to negotiate to get something back thats his and was taken from him? So what happpens when this kid is 16? or 18? Is he going to go through life taking whats not his because he wants it? and what about kids that dont have good "negotiating" skills? are they SOL?
People that go into my garage and take my lawnmower are stealing. They take my hedge clippers and its considered theft if they didnt ask. This is not OK.

But, I think this is more about how you can help YOUR child, assuming your child is the child who lost the toy, not about teaching the other child a lesson. I don't think you need to worry about how the kids at the playground are going to turn out when they are 16 or 18. Or whether they have good negotiating skills or not. The point is teaching your child these skills. Also, people stealing your lawnmower is not the same thing as a 2 year old taking a shovel away from another 2 year old at the playground. Most children who snatch toys at age 2 do not grow up to be lawnmower thieves.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Sweetbaby3 I think what I'm confused about is the alternative you suggest to the first child saying "I was using that. Please give it back". If you feel that is an unfair burden, then what would be fair?

Hmmm. I am very much in favor for "I was using that, please give it back." Because in my head, they arent really asking, they are asserting themselves. But what happens if the snatcher doesnt give it back? at what point to we say that taking something thats not yours isnt the right thing to do?

What I dont like is the waiting and negotiating on the childs whose toy was snatched. I simply disagree that if someone took my sons shovel/pail/toy shark that he should have negotiate anything, as its his toy. I would fight the urge myself to grab the toy back (yup, I am so mature!), but I have been in this situation. I didnt not snatch the toy back. My kid took care of it by grabbing it back







Another time, he just picked something else up and played with that (and only when the child walked off with the toy did I tell the mom that its was ours).

Ans while I fundamentally agree with teaching lessons and compassion and all the rest of it, it just seems terribly unfair if another child takes another childs doll. And that she would have negotiate for somethings thats hers.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I totally agree with sweetbaby3. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stand around and wait, and expect my 3yo to wait, for some other kid to give HIS toy back.

I don't allow my kids to take toys that don't belong to them and I expect them to be offered the same respect. They may ask to play with toys that aren't theirs and I always remind them that when the other child wants it back that it's time to find something else to do/play with. There are times when a toy will be sitting next to us and one of the kids will pick it up and play with it. I allow them to play with it as long as it's not causing a problem but if it does then I tell them that it's time to give it back.

Also, how do you handle a family wanting to leave the park and trying to gather up their belongings? What if your child has one of those belongings and is refusing to give it up? Sure, it may not seem like the negotiation process is long for you, but maybe for that other family they are thinking "wtf, I need to GO!" and don't have time to sit there while you try to convince a 3yo to give back THEIR belongings.

I don't think it's fair to teach our children that their needs/wants always come first. If you take something from me without asking I'm certainly not going to take your feelings into account and try to negotiate for it back. I'm not going to sit there for 15 minutes trying to coerse you to return something that rightfully belongs to me. I shouldn't have to leave all of my belongings at home for fear that someone might decide that it's theirs.

Not all kids have good negotiation skills, not all of them have good coping skills. My ds would have a breakdown if your kid took something from him and then refused to give it back. I don't think it's fair for him to sit by bawling while you try to talk your child into giving him HIS toy back. How is that fair to my kid? He did nothing wrong yet he's the one being punished while the other child holds all the cards. He decides when he's ready to give up a toy that doesn't even belong to him. One kid is being taught how to be a bully while the other is taught how to be a victim in that situation.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Honestly thats not your decession to make I have and my child has every right to have her special doll (or hatever) at the park and not have another child grab it from her just like I can bring my book or kitting out and expect noones going to take that. I can expect that if MY child brings X and Y as toys that others might want to play with it I can model and encourage sharing and turn taking with MY child. Its totally not my place to insist others especially ones weve never meet to follow the same standards.

Your right, it's not. But, I prefer to teach my children that if we are going to play with other kids, you need to expect the other kids to want to play with your toys. We leave our precious things at home. And, while, I will never force my kids to share, bringing things that they don't mind sharing to begin with sure makes it easier. Especially with toddlers. And, I think it helps parents to understand and expect age-appropriate toddler behavior. One of these behaviors is grabbing toys from other children. Toddlers do it. It's a fact. The only thing I can do is teach my children that they have choices when it happens (no matter which side of it they are on), help them to resolve it, if I have to, and move on.

I also think that it helps parents to understand the behavior is not mean-spirited. The other toddler is not being mean. Just being a toddler.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Most children who snatch toys at age 2 do not grow up to be lawnmower thieves.









I got this mixed up with another thread (I think, as i have re-read this thread 4 times looking for the inappropriate borrowing of lawn tools).


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Not all kids have good negotiation skills, not all of them have good coping skills. My ds would have a breakdown if your kid took something from him and then refused to give it back. I don't think it's fair for him to sit by bawling while you try to talk your child into giving him HIS toy back. How is that fair to my kid? He did nothing wrong yet he's the one being punished while the other child holds all the cards. He decides when he's ready to give up a toy that doesn't even belong to him. One kid is being taught how to be a bully while the other is taught how to be a victim in that situation.

This is what I don't understand. Why not teach your child to have better coping skills? I know it's not going to happen over night, but why not do what you can to empower your own child? Not label the other kid a bully and solve the problem with the same behavior that started it. You cannot control the other children on the playground, but you can teach your child how to deal with things that happen there.

And, of course, if a child was playing with a toy of ours and we were leaving, I would ask for it back myself. But, it's about modeling good behavior in this situation. I would not just snatch it from him. I would probably say "I'm sorry, honey, but we have to go and I need to pack the toy up." I just think that some posters are forgetting that we are dealing with children here. Toddlers, specifically. Not convicted felons.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*







I got this mixed up with another thread (I think, as i have re-read this thread 4 times looking for the inappropriate borrowing of lawn tools).

LOL - I was wondering where this came from.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Your right, it's not. But, I prefer to teach my children that if we are going to play with other kids, you need to expect the other kids to want to play with your toys.
And again thats fine for YOUR child I to some regards have that same rule but Its not up to me to insist OTHER kids have that same rule. So if MY child was to take something from another I'd expect her to return it and promptly.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
So when another child takes my sons toy from him thats fair? Thats right? That my son has to negotiate to get something back thats his and was taken from him? So what happpens when this kid is 16? or 18? Is he going to go through life taking whats not his because he wants it? and what about kids that dont have good "negotiating" skills? are they SOL?
People that go into my garage and take my lawnmower are stealing. They take my hedge clippers and its considered theft if they didnt ask. This is not OK.

No, it is not fair or right to take something that doesn't belong to you. And while it might be fair to snatch a toy back from the offending child, it certainly isn't right, nor is it teaching appropriate skills. If the options are to snatch back or to ask for the toy back, the preferable option is to ask for it back.

I gather from your responses that the issue (for you) is that a child should not have to ask for their toy back because it was theirs to begin with and, well, that's just not fair. The issue is the injustice of it all. (Please, correct me if I'm wrong. This is what I'm getting from your posts.) You say that the only child who should learn a lesson is the snatcher. The reality is that BOTH children ARE learning something, whether you think they should have to or not.

You are right that, in theory, a child shouldn't have to ask for a toy that is rightfully his or hers to begin with. But what happens in theory and what happens in reality are often very different. In reality, sometimes your toy gets snatched away. You can teach your children to have a revenge mentality, to see it as an-eye-for-an-eye, by telling them that it's appropriate to snatch the toy back. Or you can take the high road, overcome your desire for everything to be fair and equal, and encourage your child to ask for the toy back. That's why I said it's not about who's right or wrong, or what's fair or not; it's about getting the toy back in the nicest way possible.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

This is what I don't understand. Why not teach your child to have better coping skills? I know it's not going to happen over night, but why not do what you can to empower your own child?
How is that empowering. Your kids playing with thir OWN toy. Another child comes around and takes it (it happens toddlers are toddlers) so its now up to the victum (your child) to suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.
In gereral I'm not going to grab back my DD toy from another I feel its the parents responsiblilty to help get it back though I have stepped in when their wasn't a parent to help out. However if its MY child taking something I weill see to it thats its rightfully returned and quickly. Once its rigtfully returned THEN we can talk about asking about sharing about respecting the others right to their own property.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*

I gather from your responses that the issue (for you) is that a child should not have to ask for their toy back because it was theirs to begin with and, well, that's just not fair. The issue is the injustice of it all. (Please, correct me if I'm wrong. This is what I'm getting from your posts.) You say that the only child who should learn a lesson is the snatcher. The reality is that BOTH children ARE learning something, whether you think they should have to or not.


You are right, its the "injustice" of it all. I am glad that at least you see where I am coming from.

Mama's, I am so tired and I have to work tonight so I am going to nap while my kids are in school.

Carry on...


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
How is that empowering. Your kids playing with thir OWN toy. Another child comes around and takes it (it happens toddlers are toddlers) so its now up to the victum (your child) to suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.

Who says that is the only option? Part of teaching negotiating and problem solving skills is teaching your child that there is more than one solution to each problem. That IS empowering.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
You are right, its the "injustice" of it all. I am glad that at least you see where I am coming from.

Mama's, I am so tired and I have to work tonight so I am going to nap while my kids are in school.

Carry on...









Sweetbaby3, ahh the joys of online forums. Let's just hope our children never meet on the playground. Or at least if they do, let's hope they can come to an agreement better and faster than we can, or there might be a lot of snatching and waiting going on.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Who says that is the only option? Part of teaching negotiating and problem solving skills is teaching your child that there is more than one solution to each problem. That IS empowering.

Why is what the only option? I'm honestly confused.. (not being snarky)

Deanna


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
How is that empowering. Your kids playing with thir OWN toy. Another child comes around and takes it (it happens toddlers are toddlers) so its now up to the victum (your child) to suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.

Patience is a virtue. It really is very empowering to realize that you have control over your emotions and that you alone control how you react to something.

People get along so much better when everyone has an attitude that promotes kindness, understanding, and patience.

I want to add that you can empower your child by not thinking that they need to merely suck it up and wait. That is not the only option. They can be pro-active in asking for their toy back.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
And again thats fine for YOUR child I to some regards have that same rule but Its not up to me to insist OTHER kids have that same rule. So if MY child was to take something from another I'd expect her to return it and promptly.

Exactly my point. Everyone on the playground is going to have different rules and different ways of reacting in these situations. All we can do as parents is teach OUR kids how to react. Or we can react for them, if that is what we chose. But, even if we are reacting for them, we are still teaching them. I prefer to teach my children to problem solve. I don't worry so much about what other parents are teaching their kids. I do, however, remember that these are toddlers and that they think nothing looks more interesting than another kid's toy, especially if that other kid is playing with it.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Patience is a virtue. It really is very empowering to realize that you have control over your emotions and that you alone control how you react to something.

People get along so much better when everyone has an attitude that promotes kindness, understanding, and patience.
Its NOT up to YOU (emphaizng not yelling







) to decide how patient MY child needs to be. I teach and will teach my child that people are more important than things. It is NOT okay for her to violently grab back anything or for her to push bite or otherwise be aggressive. But honestly I just don't get this idea that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one" Their is IMHO a big diffrence controlling emotions and being the victum.

Deanna


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.

This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

If anyone is missing their family's lawnmower, don't look at me


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

All we can do as parents is teach OUR kids how to react. Or we can react for them, if that is what we chose. But, even if we are reacting for them, we are still teaching them. I prefer to teach my children to problem solve.
This I agree with though I will still be the advocate for my child. I will watch her emotions and if I need to I will "step on" and retake her property (ussually by getting the parent to help) its the idea though that I should wait around for even why someone decides the do or dont want to return something or that I should wait around while My own child decides..

Deanna


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
If anyone is missing their family's lawnmower, don't look at me


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.

Okay







: I'm totally lost? WHats another option????

Deanna


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

So if we all met at the park







would this scenario be reasonable to everyone? I am very curious now how this would work!

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

This is roughly what happened at every positive discipline playgroup we attended.


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## Cloth4Colin (Dec 12, 2004)

I haven't gotten through all the posts, but thought I'd just add what I would do. I would tell my DC that the toy belonged to the other child and ask/encourage them to give it back. If that didn't work, the "trade" option works pretty well for us. DS "trades" the toy back and in turn gets to play with something else. A trade-off of sorts. So far, this has worked very well for us. We use it mainly when DS has accidently gotten ahold of something we don't allow him to have - a pen in the living room for example - we just ask him to trade us the object for the favor of another, more appropriate toy.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Its NOT up to YOU (emphaizng not yelling ) to decide how patient MY child needs to be. I teach and will teach my child that people are more important than things. It is NOT okay for her to violently grab back anything or for her to push bite or otherwise be aggressive. But honestly I just don't get this idea that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one" Their is IMHO a big diffrence controlling emotions and being the victum.

Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I don't see how not allowing my child to be a victim equates to not teaching him to have control over his emotions. I didn't imply that my child has any right to take a toy back from another child w/o first trying to ask for it back politely. That is always the first option. However, if the other child refuses to give back a toy that is rightfully my childs I don't expect my child to sit around and wait for the other child to decide when he's ready to give it back either. If the parent's aren't going to step in and insist that their child give back the toy, than I will. I will do it as kindly and politely as possible. I will try to spare as many tears as I can, however, I will not allow anyone's child to bully mine. It is not fair to my child to have to sit patiently by while watching another child play with a toy that HE was just playing with and that HE didn't offer up to the other child because that child has made the decision that he's not ready to give it back yet. I would not allow my own children to behave in that manner and I won't allow them to be pushed around by other kids also. I'm not labelling kids as bullies here, either. I don't think that the child taking the toy is necessarilly being a bully, he is being a toddler. However, if you teach that child that he doesn't have to give up what doesn't even belong to him until he's ready while another child is standing by waiting and crying and upset than you are not only teaching your child how to be a bully but you are teaching him that his feelings are more important than the other childs.

All of my older kids do have great coping skills. I think that the reason that they have good coping skills is partially due to the fact that I don't teach them to sit idley by while being picked on by other children. I don't expect exquisite coping skills from a 3yo. I expect responsible parenting.


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

Yup. This is what my group of friends generally does too.

My two year old has been on both ends of this issue, and no matter what side she is on, I find myself empathizing with her and wishing the other child would be more flexible.







I think it is human nature to empathize more with our own children, and I think this can cause some conflict at playgroups.

My toddler has two toys that she is very attached to right now, and she insists that they come everywhere with her. I don't allow other children to play with them without her consent, but she knows that if we are going to play with other kids, and she doesn't want to share, the toys have to go up high/in the bike trailer/somewhere out of reach.

It is not equivalent to someone taking my knitting/lawnmower, because children do not have the same impulse control that adults do. If I knew that by taking my knitting out, I was risking my friends really really wanting to grab it and being unable to control themselves or sitting in jealousy and grief while I knitted, I would choose to leave my knitting at home.

I also attempt to reason with my child if she is the "snatcher," while the other child waits, but I do not expect them to wait an inordinate amount of time, and am not above prying my child's white knuckled hands away, and returning the toy to the original child, explaining gently all the while about how that is so and so's toy, maybe they will share it in a minute. That is not my first resort, but I've done it, and I think it's okay.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Okay, so I just read Pat's post (#16) and read the first link she posted. She managed to say there what I've been trying to say here in so many posts. (And much more eloquently than I could say it.)


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.

I really like this story. Everything is situational. I find that there are times when I might jump to correct my sons behavior a little too soon, more so because I'm afraid of what the other kids mother will think of me. At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible. I feel that is important for them to sort things out, and it's great to witness a two year old handing a toy over and saying "XXXX's turn" At the park with strangers I will encourage my son to ask if I see him eying a toy. 95% of the time it gets shared.


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible.

I'm cautious with this, because while it is great when it works, sometimes letting them sort it out means the more assertive child gets their way while a less assertive child gets bullied.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Well, for me it wasn't about making people feel better, I chose to guide him through a demonstration of our responsibility to other people. There were a few times that my son refused to give up an expensive toy in a store, or a breakable object he grabbed that friend asked him to put back. When he refused to let it go I put it back for him. He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

That's not what happened to my daughter. The example you posted lasted, what, two minutes? In my real life example, it took around fifteen minutes.
How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this!?!?!?
Or, what did someone say--she was acting the same way the original child acted?
The first time it took this mother fifteen minutes to take the toy away--because the child never was ready. The second time, her toy was taken, the mother began what even I assumed was going to be a LONG LONG talk, which the first time involved singing two songs to cheer the child up, my daughter saw what was coming and after she ASKED FOR HER TOY BACK and it wasn't returned, she took it back.
How on earth is that wrong?

Of course toddlers all take toys. My daughter has more or less stopped at three but even now she still sometimes takes. I am the mom in the example. I say, "X was playing with that. You can have a turn when X is done. ...X is telling you it was his turn....You need to give it back to X or I can help you."
It doesn't ever take more than a minute. I am not exaggerating my example. It took a really long time while my child was sobbing because her favorite toy was taken away.
So, since she did ASK the child for the toy back and nothing happened what was her next option?(For the people that think this was WRONG.)


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.
Actually I'm like 99% in agreement BUT I do feel its my responsiblity to make sure that my child (assumeing it was ashe who took it) returns to toy quickly yes I will consider the fact shes 3 but I will not wait around more than a minute or so (considering the others reation as my guide). Now honestly I can only think of two situations where simpily saying , "That belongs to X please give it back" hasn't resulted in her complience but it has come up. I'm not questioning those few moments of normal toddlerim but rather when the child decides they wont give it back. Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this
I don't think anyone has said that. If it took the other family more than a minute to give back her toy, I'd expect her to react this way too.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

See this link about children identified as "bullies". http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post5762126 Post #6. Seeing the "grabber" as "wrong" doesn't help resolve the conflicting needs.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge.

I want to help to identify and facilitate meeting the "grabber's" underlying needs in addition so that *grabbing* isn't meeting an underlying need. He is only *2* (in this hypothetical) btw, not "expected" to have impulse control, or empathy awareness. Or ask his parent to facilitate.

What if a parent is not there to "take back" the toy? I would want our child to *ask for help resolving the conflict*, not to grab it back. _Two "wrongs" don't make a "right" as they say_. I would hope that an adult could demonstarate alternative tools of resloving conflicts than taking what you want (regardless of the reason). I believe that there are many alternatives that honor both *children's* needs that make *taking* the toy from the child's hands unnecessary.

This is the link that abac referenced regarding modelling "using our words" instead of grabbing. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=grab Post #8.

Pat


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?
I do insist. I just don't do it in a physical way. And I would insist in a physical way if my child was in danger of being seriously hurt.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Yeah, okay, I give. No one did say that.
I just don't see what else my daughter could have done.
Also, I should add, that in my first example, the boy NEVER was ready to give the toy up. His mama "helped" him give it back.
I should also say that I don't see this kid as a bully.I'm quite fond of him. We play with them all the time. It's just the whole thing where he takes things and doesn't give them back until he's ready--that's a little frustrating for my dd. Actually, it's the mom's reaction that is frustrating but not so frustrating that we don't hang out with them.

Also, I never said the boy was a bully or was BAD for grabbing the toy. Of course that's a normal toddler behavior.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.

YEa thats my question

Deanna


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??
I think the majority of people who responded would step in at this point and give the toy back.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Again, my daughter did ASK for the toy back. So since she did ASK and didn't get a result--what next?
The boy would not release the toy. Like I said, even the mother ran out of ideas and took the toy.
Yes, in a wonderful theory, the mother and would have helped the boy want to give the boy back my dd's toy. Life isn't theory.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.
This is an interesting "lesson" that I don't choose to impose on our son. I believe that he can observe and deduce the impact of his actions with my verbal acknowledgement and observatons of the other child's verbals and non-verbals. And that he can see me empathizing with the other child. But, I don't feel "ownership" or "responsibility" for other's emotions. I see that some actions of mine have impact in vary different degrees, depending upon the individual. But, I don't want my interactions *done to* our son to give the "impression" of responsibility to other's feelings.

The opportunities to learn empathy present themselves naturally, like when our son has been upset at having a toy taken, he experienced the correllation between action and impact. And he can deduce (without a lesson being imposed) that someone might feel sad when something is taken from him. Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart. And I would be concerned that our son would thus learn that mama does things that she is telling me not to do, and she that knows I will be upset, and is doing it to me anyway.







IMO, that models doing things _to them_ even when you know others will be upset. I prefer to facilitate our son's awareness of the impact of his actions, without imposing a "lesson". I *trust* that:

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving *guidance*. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, _rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing_. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that *cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.*

Pat


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.

I would be fine with that too. I refuse to allwo my children to be bullied and teach them to stand up forthemselves politely but firmly if need be. Your dd gave the kids some time but enough already. She isn't dumb. She could see where this was going.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

What does it say about me that I'm getting hot and sweaty and upset just reading this thread?









While I've encountered several situations where the opportunity was given for the taker to give back the toy - sometimes they just absolutely refuse to relinquish what they've snatched without permission.

Quote:

Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart.
I really do understand what you're saying here, however when dealing with two, three and four year olds - I don't see how applicable it is. Trying to model appropriate behaviour for our children is an admirable goal, but at the risk of injuring the self worth and confidence of a toddler or preschooler is not something that I personally am willing to do. By physically assisting my daughter (after other avenues, quickly, have not worked) shows her that her taking someone else's toy/possession is not going to be tolerated. That's *real* life...

We were also raised with two wrongs don't make a right, but again, my daughter will learn the importance of respecting someone else's physical property - and if she needs a little physical (but gentle) intervention from me, I'm more than willing to go there.

Quote:

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?

Again, I'm all for allowing/guiding/encouraging children to work it out - but I know for a fact that even with those things, my daughter would be pummeled and bullied (at this age especially) without help and assistance from myself.

Interesting conversation.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Hey, Lilyka, thanks!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

.

that would be acceptable with everyone i hang out with.

with very small kids however we know the importance of supervising so chances are someone would be there intercept child 2's hand (as in our children are usually on our laps or within arms reach when toys are involved) before she ever got to the shovel. then child two would be given a chance to compose themselves (if nessecary) and instructed on ways to ask nicely for a shovel, wait thier turn etc and helped to do so.

that is only amoung my good friends though. if my child took something from a stranger I wuld give it back to the other child promptly and help my child work through it seperately. My friends are my partners in childrearing and have more patience with me and my child that I wopuld expect a stranger to. There children are parented similarly and know what to expect. the kids who don't know me don't know that they can trust me to get thier toy back. all they know of our family is that the short one is a snatcher.







thats got to be hard for a kid. Fortunately I don't think this has ever happened (they aren't keen on strangers noticing them and it is hard to keep a low profile when your snatching toys







but with friends and family . . who different story)


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartmama

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.
In my perfect world







, here's what would happen-

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Caregiver comes over to Child 1 and asks if they are upset because Child 2 took the shovel they were using to dig with.

Child 1 says yes or nodds.

Caregiver asks Child 1 if they will come over to Child 2 with them to try to find a solution to the problem. Together, then Caregiver explains the problem, that Child 1 is upset about the shovel being grabbed and still wants to use it, and Child 2 must have wanted to use it too. Problem solving ensues. Likely at this young age Caregiver presents several possible solutions to the problem, such as-

1. Child 1 and Child 2 agree to take turns and a specified time both are okay with waiting on is agreed upon.

2. Caregiver can show both children alternative ways to dig, with their hands, with small sticks, etc. so that both children can play at digging even though there is only one shovel.

3. One or both children could agree to an alternate activity if there is only one shovel. Would one or both of you rather do something else? We can blow bubbles, toss this ball, play tag, run in circles, etc etc.

Then Caregiver can listen for Child 1 and Child 2 to have ideas or talk about the suggestions made by the Caregiver and hopefully come to a solution to the problem that is okay with both of them.

Sometimes I am better at helping my children through conflict than others, and at 4 and 6, they handle most of their conflicts between themselves. Being in a public setting with strangers would for sure put a spin on things, and if it was someone else's property in question who was not an actual friend that would put a spin on it too. I would still hope to be able to find a way to help them solve the conflict without physical force in my perfect world







.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?

Neither child's feelings are more important than the other. But both children's feelings are important. The heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged is a fact of life. I don't mean that to sound harsh, but it happens. It is our role as parents to HELP children work through those emotions and learn how to solve problems.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
When it comes to friends and family, I think "negotiating" property is a lifelong skill. Friends who borrow clothes without asking, siblings who take your car without permission, neighbors who help themselves to lawn equipment in your yard. Real life isn't black and white. There is real skill in learning to assert your expectations without losing sight of the relationship involved.

To me the "negotiating" here would be the child saying "I was playing with that. Please give it back". At that point if the other child won't, I would intervene and spend at most a minute helping the child give the toy back...then giving it back for them if they couldn't.

If my friends were stealing from me they'd not be my friends any longer. If my sibling took my car without asking...the first time I'd be ticked...the second time I'd report it stolen. Same with the neighbor that stole my property, I'd call the police. And the police wouldn't try to talk them into returning it. I try to help my children learn about real life. I do it in as gentle a way as possible ofcourse. But I have yet to meet someone that wouldn't be irate in the situations mentioned above.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

It's also our role as a parent to make sure that our children understand that the feelings of others matter just as much as our own and by not insisting that the toy be given back while a child is sitting there sobbing because of the actions of YOUR child, you are neglecting to teach that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
Neither child's feelings are more important than the other. But both children's feelings are important. The heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged is a fact of life. I don't mean that to sound harsh, but it happens. It is our role as parents to HELP children work through those emotions and learn how to solve problems.

I agree with this. And to the pps who said that there is no need for the child whose toy has been snatched to learn anything, I would argue that there is a very important lesson.

I don't think that you are invalidating your own child's feelings by not solving the problem for them. You can empathize with them, help them wait, distract them, etc.

But throughout their lives, people will treat them poorly. People will be rude to them, cut them off in traffic, try to take advantage of them, and steal things from them, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. I think developing a healthy way of processing these actions, without seeking revenge or blaming oneself, is a VERY important lesson to learn.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

BS

I am NOT going to sit by and watch my child angry and upset because he was wronged and the other adult in the situation is taking 15 minutes to help make it right. ESPECIALLY, if the end result is still going to be the same. The child is having a stubborn moment, as they all do, and refusing still 15 minutes later to cooperate so the parent has to remove the toy from his hands to give it back to my child. So what? My child is upset and crying for 15 minutes for nothing? They are toddlers! Sometimes they can be distracted, sometimes they cannot. Sometimes they have one goal in mind and nothing in the world will deter them from that goal. If that goal happens to be "I'm going to stand here crying until that kid gives me my toy back" than I don't want it to take a 15 minute "lesson" to your child so that MINE may get HIS toy back. No, life isn't fair, but I don't want them learning that at 3 years old. It should be as fair as possible at 3 and not being allowed to retrieve a toy stolen from them by another person is NOT fair.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright*
I'm cautious with this, because while it is great when it works, sometimes letting them sort it out means the more assertive child gets their way while a less assertive child gets bullied.

Well in all fairness I live in a happy bubble with playdates. All the kids have known each other since just weeks old and are 2.5 now so many months of knowing personalities plays into it. The kids are really usually pretty respectful of one another. If something gets into a tug of war a mom will step in.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Having a 3 yo, I have been here many a time. I do not think a parent should grab the toy back in order to make things "right". Two wrongs.......a right does not make. What does that teach?

When my child has grabbed a toy from another child, it does not take 15 minutes of two children crying to work it out. When she was too little to understand any aspect of the situation, redirecting to another toy was the course of action we took. Once she was old enough to understand some aspects of the situation, we were able to bring in those parts and use them to help her resolve the situation. Now at 3, she has learned about possessions, taking turns, feelings, and negotiation and resolves these issues largely without the aid of adults. But had I snatched "stolen" toys out of her hands because I thought discussion or negotiation were too much effort, then I am guessing we would be in the 15 minute stand-off point now. My feeling on this is that if children are given resepct and trust to help negotiate these situations from the get-go, it does not come to a 15 minute stand-off.

And if I run across a child that has had things routinely grabbed from them, I am of a mind to give the benefit of the doubt, explain to dd that it might take some time for him to understand the things she does, and I would take the time to help them work it out, even if it took 15 minutes.

I guess we never know where the "other kid" is coming from. But I am not going to grab something back just to feel good about some sort of fairness. This is not something I want my child to learn (from me anyway).


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I have 5 kids with 5 vastly different personalities. They range from one extreme to another. My oldest could speak extremely well by 18 months and had wonderful cognitive skills. She was able to understand and talk about her feelings at a very young age and was able to understand the feelings of others as well. It was quite easy to redirect her and explain the situation on both ends. However, my 3yo is totally different. His language skills are not what Kendra's were. He still speaks in broken sentences and while I do my best to explain the situation to him, I am also fully aware that he does not quite get what I'm saying and how to deal with what's going on without a lot of help. He cannot sit there for 15 minutes waiting for his toy patiently while you explain to your child why they should be giving it back. This works in the opposite direction as well. If he took a toy from your child, he would be very insistent that it was his and he would not give it back. It would be unfair of me to have a 15 minute conversation with him about why he should give it back because in the end he would still disagree and insist on keeping it. The end result would be me removing the toy from his hands and handing it back to your child with an explanation as to why I did it. I am not saying you should "snatch" the toy violently from your childs hand, but I am saying that there are times when a 3yo just will NOT give it up and it will be up to the parents to intervene and yes, remove the toy from your childs hand.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
If my friends were stealing from me they'd not be my friends any longer. If my sibling took my car without asking...the first time I'd be ticked...the second time I'd report it stolen. Same with the neighbor that stole my property, I'd call the police. And the police wouldn't try to talk them into returning it. I try to help my children learn about real life. I do it in as gentle a way as possible ofcourse. But I have yet to meet someone that wouldn't be irate in the situations mentioned above.

HA! thats exactly what I was thinking. I was also wondering if someone who had problems with poeple constantly taking thier stuff has some sort of problem standing up for themselves and people knew them to be a push over.this is actually one of the reasons I would be really concerned about leaving the victimized child to stand there sobbing while the snatching child got negotiated with. it sorta sends the mesege that if someone takes something of yours (or if they are hurting you) what can you do but stand there and hope you can talk them out of it or talk them into changing thier mind . . .

if I looked over and saw my neighbor mowing his lawn with my lawn mower I wouldn't go negotiate to get it back and stand in thier yard fretting and wasting time trying to convince them to give it back. I would ank one time and then call the police. They stole my lawn mower, they stole my gas. If my sibling took my car without asking the first time I would be ticked. and they would know it. I may well snatch it back while they were in wherever they were (leaving them to find thier own way back) the second time I would call the police. You don't take things that don't belong to you. period. and I have never known anyone (family included) who thought "borrowing" stuff without permission (aka stealing) was cool. but then if I did I would put an end to thier borrowing very very quickly. I have no problem sharing but taking my things without asking isn't even a little bit of sharing. it is an intrusive violation, it is theft.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I have 5 kids with 5 vastly different personalities. They range from one extreme to another. My oldest could speak extremely well by 18 months and had wonderful cognitive skills. She was able to understand and talk about her feelings at a very young age and was able to understand the feelings of others as well. It was quite easy to redirect her and explain the situation on both ends. However, my 3yo is totally different. His language skills are not what Kendra's were. He still speaks in broken sentences and while I do my best to explain the situation to him, I am also fully aware that he does not quite get what I'm saying and how to deal with what's going on without a lot of help. He cannot sit there for 15 minutes waiting for his toy patiently while you explain to your child why they should be giving it back. This works in the opposite direction as well. If he took a toy from your child, he would be very insistent that it was his and he would not give it back. It would be unfair of me to have a 15 minute conversation with him about why he should give it back because in the end he would still disagree and insist on keeping it. The end result would be me removing the toy from his hands and handing it back to your child with an explanation as to why I did it. I am not saying you should "snatch" the toy violently from your childs hand, but I am saying that there are times when a 3yo just will NOT give it up and it will be up to the parents to intervene and yes, remove the toy from your childs hand.
I think many of the parents of a child like your son can relate to this post.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

And I wanted to be clear (and I think I speak for a lot of parents here) I wouldn't just snatch it out of a child hands. I would gently but firmly tell him he simply can not have that and I know he likes it and I am very sorry there is not more than one and we like to share and all that but that it is not his and he has upset the other child very much and must give it back now. and if he didn't habnd it over remove it very calmly and as gently as posible from his hands.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
And I wanted to be clear (and I think I speak for a lot of parents here) I wouldn't just snatch it out of a child hands. I would gently but firmly tell him he simply can not have that and I know he likes it and I am very sorry there is not more than one and we like to share and all that but that it is not his and he has upset the other child very much and must give it back now. and if he didn't habnd it over remove it very calmly and as gently as posible from his hands.









:

Deanna


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## Qalliope (Oct 22, 2004)

What I don't see in any of the posted scenarios or responses is the MOMs working together with both children so that both kids feelings are validated and both kids learn from the experience. I don't think waiting for the other mom and kid to give the toy back for 15 minutes is reasonable. But I don't get why you wouldn't be communicating to the other mom about the situation. When you go to a public place with your child, the two of you are engaging in a community activity. So even if you don't know the other kids and parents, when an issue crops up, shouldn't both parents work to get the toy back to the rightful owner, find ways to help the kids play together agreeably, and console them when they don't get what they want?

If my child takes a toy, I certainly don't ignore the needs of the other child. I console and counsel both and try to avoid physical intervention. And if he has a toy taken from him, and that child's parent isn't nearby, or can't see what's happening, I go over and talk to both kids to try to work on a solution that works for all of us. At some point, the other parent will make an appearance and come over. I feel it's my job to engage that parent and make them aware of what's going on. The fact is that whichever side of the situation you're on, at some point, you're going to be on the opposite side. So it's an excellent opportunity for BOTH children to learn about asking before taking, sharing with a friend, and finding ways to play together that don't involve violating boundaries. If you just grab from your child, both children miss out on that opportunity. Both moms are likely to feel that their child's emotions are the top priority, and that's totally understandable. But in a community situation, I need to be able to find mutually agreeable solutions with the other people in that community and not just my own child. That's how I model good behavior and problem solving skills. If I act like I'm afraid to step on the other mom's toes by talking to her or her child, while I wait for her to finish her parenting, I teach my ds to be afraid and let people walk all over him. If I go over and take the toy back, I teach aggressiveness. If I try everything I know to work on a positive outcome with both children, and, ideally, the other parent, then I've taught patience and respect, both for oneself and other people. That's my personal goal. And I'm assuming that you are dealing with a rational adult, who is capable of peaceful conflict resolution. I know that's sometimes NOT the case (like in the original post), and I agree that sometimes physically removing might be the solution. But I try to assume the best in people, and I think that cases like that are rare.

To mama2mygirl:

Your daughter tried to do what she could to get the toy back through discussion, as well as patience and trust in the other child's mom. It was only after her other methods didn't work (and you couldn't come up with any other solutions either) that she simply took the toy back. I found that assertive rather than aggressive. She could have pushed the other kid down or yelled, but she didn't go that route. Seems to me that she handled the situation in a calm, reasonable manner given that she was dealing with a child and parent that were both sort of unreasonable.







I doubt there was anything else you could have done.

Rachele


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I think that people are not understanding. It is not about the child who has a toy taken standing there for 15 minutes crying. That isnt what people are advocating. You would get both children together and try to work out a solution. This is what we do at our parent co-operative preschool and it has NEVER been a problem. It would go something like this:

Child 1 is playing with a toy
Child 2 takes toy
Child 1 comes to parent/teacher crying about toy.
Parent/teacher asks child 1 if they would like to go talk to child 2 to get their toy back. If yes, parent/teacher goes with child 1 to child 2.
Child 1 is encouraged to use their words and express what they are feeling. Teach may say something "Child 2, Child 1 is very sad about the toy you took." Then address Child 1 with "Child 1, I am sorry that you are upset about the toy"
If child 2 does not readily give up the toy, parent/teacher will get down on the kids level and say something to the effect -- "well, we have a problem. Child 1 was playing with the toy, but child 2 wants to play with it instead. How do you think we can fix this?"
If children do not have any suggestions (which is probably for 2/3 year olds, but usually by 4 they are full of suggestions I have found, LOL).... then parent teacher can offer some. (child 1 may have the toy back and child 2 can play with ____ (insert other toy). Or child 2 may have the toy and child 1 can play with ____ (insert other toy). Or neither child may have the toy and both will find other toys.

I can honestly say that in 3 three years of my daughter being at the co-op and me volunteering 2-3 times a month the entire time, I have NEVER seen it not be worked out this way. Sometimes they do go through a few "rounds of ideas" but they can almost always work it out and there is no one standing around crying being left to be a victim. I have never seen a teacher having to pry a toy out of anyone's hand. Not only do the children learn problem solving, but they learn resepct for EVERYONE's feelings. They learn empathy and they learn how their actions affect their peers.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I can honestly say that in 3 three years of my daughter being at the co-op and me volunteering 2-3 times a month the entire time, I have NEVER seen it not be worked out this way. I have never seen a teacher having to pry a toy out of anyone's hand. Not only do the children learn problem solving, but they learn resepct for EVERYONE's feelings. They learn empathy and they learn how their actions affect their peers.
I think that sounds wonderful and exactly the kind of teaching I'd hope to see in a preschool.

The problem some have raised is how to respond when the child is a stranger. The leadership coaching role explained above may be neither expected nor welcomed by the other family. They just want their crying child's toy back. Now.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

While the pp scenarios are both appropriate and applicable in most or some situations - I can tell you that speaking for my hn three year old... she would be having a stroke at that point.
















There would be some room for discussion - but what it comes down to is this - if a toy was snatched from her hands, there would be a two to five minute window for negotiation (if she wasn't already in hysterics) and after that she would be fully freaking out (for lack of a better term).

I'm embarassed to say that at that point, if child 'A' had not returned MY child's toy to her, or their caregiver made no move to physically remove the toy from their hands - I would remove said toy (yes physically, but very gently) from the child, and then I (and my daughter) would leave the situation.

I've been part of a *very* AP group since Zoe was two weeks old - and NEVER have I seen negotiations such as pp have described going on.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

zoesmummy I *think* you were referring to the post before mine.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

There would be some room for discussion - but what it comes down to is this - if a toy was snatched from her hands, there would be a two to five minute window for negotiation (if she wasn't already in hysterics) and after that she would be fully freaking out (for lack of a better term).
If that were the case then I would focus on how I could help my child deal better with situations like this. Quickly grabbing the toy from the other child is not helping your child deal with the feelings she has or helping her solve the problem, it is just stopping her from going into hysterics and therefore setting her up to always meltdown if she doesnt have said toy in that 2-5 minute time frame.

That is JMO tho and I do not have your child or parent your child







I am just telling you what I would do if it were my child. And just for the sake of discussion I will say that I do have a very spirited quick to freak 5 year old. She can go from happy in one minute to screaming and wailing on the floor the next because someone looked at her wrong or her shirt is the wrong color. It is definately frustrating and very hard to deal with so I can empathize with you.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Has it taken 15 minutes for anyone's kid here to give the toy back who doesn't practice taking it away?

It has never taken anywhere close to that amount of time for me.

And when my quick-to-freak-out kid has his stuff taken away from him, we work on dealing with that frustration and he now offers to trade, he works on using his words, he gets an adult, etc. More tools for his toolbox.

I don't get the comparing toddler grabbing to adult theft, but for the sake of argument, an officer isn't going to just come and take the lawn mower back from your neighbor. S/he is going to talk to the neighbor, find out what the deal is, and work to get the neighbor to voluntarily return the mower, and have the two of you talk it out, etc. Obviously at some point an arrest could be made and the mower returned via force, but I don't even think that would happen after 15 minutes. I'm guessing....


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
I think that people are not understanding. It is not about the child who has a toy taken standing there for 15 minutes crying. That isnt what people are advocating. You would get both children together and try to work out a solution. This is what we do at our parent co-operative preschool and it has NEVER been a problem. It would go something like this:

Child 1 is playing with a toy
Child 2 takes toy
Child 1 comes to parent/teacher crying about toy.
Parent/teacher asks child 1 if they would like to go talk to child 2 to get their toy back. If yes, parent/teacher goes with child 1 to child 2.
Child 1 is encouraged to use their words and express what they are feeling. Teach may say something "Child 2, Child 1 is very sad about the toy you took." Then address Child 1 with "Child 1, I am sorry that you are upset about the toy"
If child 2 does not readily give up the toy, parent/teacher will get down on the kids level and say something to the effect -- "well, we have a problem. Child 1 was playing with the toy, but child 2 wants to play with it instead. How do you think we can fix this?"
If children do not have any suggestions (which is probably for 2/3 year olds, but usually by 4 they are full of suggestions I have found, LOL).... then parent teacher can offer some. (child 1 may have the toy back and child 2 can play with ____ (insert other toy). Or child 2 may have the toy and child 1 can play with ____ (insert other toy). Or neither child may have the toy and both will find other toys.

I can honestly say that in 3 three years of my daughter being at the co-op and me volunteering 2-3 times a month the entire time, I have NEVER seen it not be worked out this way. Sometimes they do go through a few "rounds of ideas" but they can almost always work it out and there is no one standing around crying being left to be a victim. I have never seen a teacher having to pry a toy out of anyone's hand. Not only do the children learn problem solving, but they learn resepct for EVERYONE's feelings. They learn empathy and they learn how their actions affect their peers.

This is great and how I have seen it work most of the time. But as others have pointed out, the parent is not always there and we have absoluely no idea where this kid comes from as far as past interactions with people in general. We all talk about it on MDC. Examples like "maybe the mother was having a bad day", "maybe the driver was on the way to the ER", "maybe the person had sepcial needs"...... I try to approach (seemingly unsupervised) small chidren this way. I do not know that they have been treated respectfully. I do not know that they are developmentally on-track. I do not know anything about them. Just like we often know nothing about situations we as adults are forced to navigate on a daily basis. I want to model to dd that we do not know these things and that compassion, understanding, and open-minds are the best tools to interacting with other humans. That means having some patience and not jumping to decide it is MY dd's toy and this child thinks it is OK to STEAL it. The best thing I can do for both my child and this unknown child (who I might know nothing about) is to assume the best intentions and help everyone get what they want. That does not mean letting my child cry for 15 minutes. There are an infinite number of ideas I can think of right now that could be suggested before anyone cries for 15 minutes.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
Sweetbaby3, ahh the joys of online forums. Let's just hope our children never meet on the playground. Or at least if they do, let's hope they can come to an agreement better and faster than we can, or there might be a lot of snatching and waiting going on.
























Sing it sister. My guess is that it would be worked out before we even got to the sand box.

Here's how it would go:
My youngest is playing in the sandbox with his favorite shovel and toy shark.
your child takes beloved shark.

my child stares briefly, gaping.

He most certainly would ask for it back.
He would ask again while your child processes what he's gonna do.

Enter my middle boy and protective older brother: Hey buddy, you wanna give that back?

Your child: No.

Middle son: I think you should reconsider. Or your gonna have to tell me why.

Middle son: takes shark back

Younger son: promptly gives is back to your possibly crying child.

My oldest: is probably making grilled cheese sandwiches for everyone, because thats what she does when there is drama.

What am I doing? quite possibly chatting with you not even realizing whats going on, or reading my book letting things play out.

I would not pry or grab said shark from your child or anyone elses (its my last resort, and has been as my oldest grilled cheese making daughter is 19 and I have been doing this for a while). If things were going along at the speed I think it should go (and like we all mostly agree it should be quick), then I would certainly tell you you need to step in and get the toy.

My child didnt do anything.
His feelings should warrant more than just lip service to him learning to negotiate, and whatever else all the snatchers parents think my child should do including wait and ask, an wait and ask, and on and on. It seems to me that alot of our time is being spent on making the snatcher feel better about giving a toy back. That isnt even his in the first place. Snatching is aggressive.

My child has had a toy snatched from him, and before I could even do anything (or the other mama), he grabbed it right back. He said: Thats not yours!

How is this a problem? How is my child even remotely a bully? I would say he was being pretty proactive


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

This is great and how I have seen it work most of the time. But as others have pointed out, the parent is not always there and we have absoluely no idea where this kid comes from as far as past interactions with people in general.
True, and to that I will add that I have indeed used this at playgrounds where my children were playing and we had conflicts with other kids. It has never been an issue. i have never had a mother come up to me and yell at me for treating her child nicely and helping them find a solution. I really can't imagine that anyone would be angry at anyone for helping 2 children solve their problems peacefully.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think another point of confusion here is whether the item in question is part of the shared environment, or a personal item belonging only to one child.

You are standing in Starbucks, with an item in your hand, when someone grabs it, and walks off to use it for themselves. Most of us will have a different reaction if the object was our laptop, as opposed to the cafe container of Half and Half.

If an item comparable to the half and half was taken from ds, I can see the virtue in coaching him to remain generous and calm despite the rudeness of another child.

If someone grabbed "his laptop" (beloved or highly valued personal object), well, even the most laid back adults I know wouldn't spend 15 minutes debating the needs of the adult who took off with their laptop. They would want it back. Now. Not later. Not in 15 minutes.

I think that is the kind of dynamic some parents are defending in this thread. They are saying a child is entitled to have strong feelings when they feel something is/was being stolen from them~

Others are, I think, consider the object in question to be like the container of Half and Half...nobody is "stealing it" by grabbing it away. It was part of the shared space that everybody was using (which is often the case with toys at playdates or preschool). I think we all recognize there is virtue in learning to be patient and understanding with rude people, instead of being rude back.

These are, I think, two different situations being described. Both are equally valid.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I think another point of confusion here is whether the item in question is part of the shared environment, or a personal item belonging only to one child.

You are standing in Starbucks, with an item in your hand, when someone grabs it, and walks off to use it for themselves. Most of us will have a different reaction if the object was our laptop, as opposed to the cafe container of Half and Half.

If an item comparable to the half and half was taken from ds, I can see the virtue in coaching him to remain generous and calm despite the rudeness of another child.

If someone grabbed "his laptop" (beloved or highly valued personal object), well, even the most laid back adults I know wouldn't spend 15 minutes debating the needs of the adult who took off with their laptop. They would want it back. Now. Not later. Not in 15 minutes.

I think that is the kind of dynamic some parents are defending in this thread. They are saying a child is entitled to have strong feelings when they feel something is/was being stolen from them~

Others are, I think, consider the object in question to be like the container of Half and Half...nobody is "stealing it" by grabbing it away. It was part of the shared space that everybody was using (which is often the case with toys at playdates or preschool). I think we all recognize there is virtue in learning to be patient and understanding with rude people, instead of being rude back.

These are, I think, two different situations being described. Both are equally valid.

Well said mama.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I think another point of confusion here is whether the item in question is part of the shared environment, or a personal item belonging only to one child.

You are standing in Starbucks, with an item in your hand, when someone grabs it, and walks off to use it for themselves. Most of us will have a different reaction if the object was our laptop, as opposed to the cafe container of Half and Half.

If an item comparable to the half and half was taken from ds, I can see the virtue in coaching him to remain generous and calm despite the rudeness of another child.

If someone grabbed "his laptop" (beloved or highly valued personal object), well, even the most laid back adults I know wouldn't spend 15 minutes debating the needs of the adult who took off with their laptop. They would want it back. Now. Not later. Not in 15 minutes.

I think that is the kind of dynamic some parents are defending in this thread. They are saying a child is entitled to have strong feelings when they feel something is/was being stolen from them~

Others are, I think, consider the object in question to be like the container of Half and Half...nobody is "stealing it" by grabbing it away. It was part of the shared space that everybody was using (which is often the case with toys at playdates or preschool). I think we all recognize there is virtue in learning to be patient and understanding with rude people, instead of being rude back.

These are, I think, two different situations being described. Both are equally valid.

Yep. I think to most children, there is no difference. Something that is common might be prized by some kids while something really "important" might not generate as much of a reaction. We see a HUGE difference. But many times children do not......which of course, complicates the situation.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

you can not compare adults taking things from other adults to children. Adults have impulse control and understand possesion and ownership. The same can not be said for children.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

OK, I managed to lose my reply, so I'm gonna try again.
I really am against grabbing form my child unless she's in danger, but lately I've been finding myself grabbing from my older dd to return whatever it is she just grabbed from younger dd. I hate doing it though, because it feels wrong.

If you try words and they don't work, grabbing, as a last resort, seems ok. But I'd say the length of time spent negotiating with the snatcher should be tempered by the level of emotional upset experienced by the owner. If the owner is really upset, the last resort would be resorted to sooner.

Perhaps it can be wrong to grab from the snatcher but still be fair. Is it possible for something to be wrong and fair at the same time? I dunno. It sure seems like a grey area.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

you can not compare adults taking things from other adults to children. Adults have impulse control and understand possesion and ownership. The same can not be said for children.
I agree there are differences. The ethics of an adult taking a laptop are very different from those of a 3 year old taking a teddy bear.

However I was addressing the disagreement over whether we should coach the child who's item was "taken" to be compassionate and understanding, rather than emotional and distraught.

I'm saying, even for adults, this would really depend on the item and circumstances. That matters to kids too. I don't think you will make progress "coaching" a child to feel generous when someone grabs their security blanket.

Very few of us could be coached into letting someone wear the wedding ring they just took from our finger. Our *emotional* reaction would be such that even hearing the suggestion we should share it would make us more upset.

*This* is also true of children with beloved objects...even asking them to try and understand why the other child took it can feel like a betrayal; a completely overwhelming suggestion.

However I want to validate that it *is* important to teach children coping skills. A swift hysterical breakdown isn't the best reaction and I understand the suggestions that we also coach the child who lost the object.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I don't think you will make progress "coaching" a child to feel generous when someone grabs their security blanket.

My goal isn't to coach my child to feel generous if someone takes a beloved item--it's to coach him on how to approach problem solving, how to assert himself without violence, how to voice objections (strong ones) in an acceptable way, how to turn to others for help and mediation support, how to be gracious with those who aren't as skillful or developmentally advanced, etc.

And the best way I know to do that is to model it.

By stating that:

The toy is Sam's.
Sam was using it.
Sam would like it back, please.
Sam might be able to offer a turn when he is done.
Sam is happy to let you use his other toy instead.
Both Sam and you want to use the toy now, what can we do?
Can you trade Sam for it?
Can your mother help you find something else to play with?
I'm sorry, Sam doesn't want to share that toy. It's very special to him.
And so on...

He's nearly 5 now. He could easily grab stuff back from the toddlers at the playground. But that's not the kind of problem solving he does, nor is it the kind I would want him to do. YMMV

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Very few of us could be coached into letting someone wear the wedding ring they just took from our finger. Our *emotional* reaction would be such that even hearing the suggestion we should share it would make us more upset.

Perhaps. But what if it were a mentally handicapped person? Or an elderly person with Alzheimers who was confused and thought the ring was their's? Wouldn't you be able to have enough compassion and understanding that their intent wasn't malicious to not get so upset?

And would the best way to retrieve the ring, be to ask for it a couple of times, give up, and then pry it out of the person's hand? I don't know....I do know that I wouldn't feel good about an exchange that went down like that. I would try any means possible to avoid that level of physical conflict.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Dear monkey's mom,








:







:







:

Fondly from your fan club.









Pat


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

zoesmummy I *think* you were referring to the post before mine.
Yes - sorry about that! I was more responding to the posters who implied that they would take whatever amount of time (irregardless of the other child's feelings) to work out their own child's issures re: returning the toy. That really irked me.







: Maybe I need to work on my own issues!









Quote:

I think another point of confusion here is whether the item in question is part of the shared environment, or a personal item belonging only to one child.

You are standing in Starbucks, with an item in your hand, when someone grabs it, and walks off to use it for themselves. Most of us will have a different reaction if the object was our laptop, as opposed to the cafe container of Half and Half.

If an item comparable to the half and half was taken from ds, I can see the virtue in coaching him to remain generous and calm despite the rudeness of another child.

If someone grabbed "his laptop" (beloved or highly valued personal object), well, even the most laid back adults I know wouldn't spend 15 minutes debating the needs of the adult who took off with their laptop. They would want it back. Now. Not later. Not in 15 minutes.

I think that is the kind of dynamic some parents are defending in this thread. They are saying a child is entitled to have strong feelings when they feel something is/was being stolen from them~

Others are, I think, consider the object in question to be like the container of Half and Half...nobody is "stealing it" by grabbing it away. It was part of the shared space that everybody was using (which is often the case with toys at playdates or preschool). I think we all recognize there is virtue in learning to be patient and understanding with rude people, instead of being rude back.

These are, I think, two different situations being described. Both are equally valid.
Yes, I agree with that. If we are at playgroup and Zoe has a 'general' toy and someone snatches it a) not only is her response most likely going to be less emotional, b) I would be more willing to let the scenario play itself out. Involve the two parents *with* the children to coming to a solution. Again though, if Zoe emphatically states that she had the toy first and wants it back (no ifs, ands, or buts) I believe it is up to the other parent to make that happen - or I will.

We also avoid bringing favorite toys, books, dolls, blankies to playdates and make sure they are put away when others come to our home. Just to avoid the kind of meltdown I've seen Zoe experience regarding those objects before. But I really feel (again, maybe it's just me) that while it's important to work on patience and co-operation - kids still need to learn that snatching is wrong, and you have to give something back!


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

Perhaps. But what if it were a mentally handicapped person? Or an elderly person with Alzheimers who was confused and thought the ring was their's? Wouldn't you be able to have enough compassion and understanding that their intent wasn't malicious to not get so upset?
I'm not sure where you're going with this comparison - is the mentally handicapped person supposed to represent a younger child? Because in that case yes - I would expect my almost four year old to give an eighteen month old more leeway. If it is two preschoolers of the same age - why should one be given more latitude and leeway at the expense of the other's turmoil?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

My goal isn't to coach my child to feel generous if someone takes a beloved item--it's to coach him on how to approach problem solving, how to assert himself without violence, how to voice objections (strong ones) in an acceptable way, how to turn to others for help and mediation support, how to be gracious with those who aren't as skillful or developmentally advanced, etc.

And the best way I know to do that is to model it.
100% agree!

Quote:

He's nearly 5 now. He could easily grab stuff back from the toddlers at the playground. But that's not the kind of problem solving he does, nor is it the kind I would want him to do.










Ds is 10 and it's the same way here too.

Quote:

Perhaps. But what if it were a mentally handicapped person? Or an elderly person with Alzheimers who was confused and thought the ring was their's? Wouldn't you be able to have enough compassion and understanding that their intent wasn't malicious to not get so upset?

And would the best way to retrieve the ring, be to ask for it a couple of times, give up, and then pry it out of the person's hand? I don't know....I do know that I wouldn't feel good about an exchange that went down like that. I would try any means possible to avoid that level of physical conflict.
Of course! I would ask them for it, ask others for help etc. I would take into account extenuating circumstances (dementia etc).

However I think most of us would want it back quickly, and would feel that was a reasonable expectation. My post was really addressing the disagreement over whether children should expect to have an object given back quickly.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

kids still need to learn that snatching is wrong, and you have to give something back!
Sure but snatching it back isn't exactly teaching them that it is wrong. Its like saying its not ok to hit and then smacking their hand while saying it.


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
Sure but snatching it back isn't exactly teaching them that it is wrong. Its like saying its not ok to hit and then smacking their hand while saying it.

I don't really agree with that. It is the context. If the base rules are that if it's yours or your turn, nobody has the right to snatch your toy, then snatching a toy is not okay. Removing the toy from the possession of the child who snatched it, and returning it to the original child, is not the same thing. I think even young children are intelligent enough to understand the difference.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I'm not sure where you're going with this comparison - is the mentally handicapped person supposed to represent a younger child? Because in that case yes - I would expect my almost four year old to give an eighteen month old more leeway. If it is two preschoolers of the same age - why should one be given more latitude and leeway at the expense of the other's turmoil?

I'm not saying one child should be given leeway at the expense of the other's turmoil. I'm saying that as adults, perhaps we shouldn't be overpowering children in an attempt to make things "fair"--just as we wouldn't overpower a handicapped person or the elderly who really couldn't grasp social mores.

I would give them the benefit of the doubt. And I encourage my child to do the same--whether its a younger child, a peer, an older person, etc.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright*
I think even young children are intelligent enough to understand the difference.









Uh oh....I don't understand the difference.







: What does that say about me?


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

yeah i dont see how a 2/3 year old is supposed to understand the difference. We constantly say here in the GD forum that its import to model behavior, be consistent with what we are showing our kids and telling our kids. I don't think taking a toy away from another kid because he took your child's toy is living up to what we expect from our children. Some keep saying that one child snatching a toy from another child is aggressive, well the same rules apply to a parent (who is much bigger and stronger than the child).


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
yeah i dont see how a 2/3 year old is supposed to understand the difference. We constantly say here in the GD forum that its import to model behavior, be consistent with what we are showing our kids and telling our kids. I don't think taking a toy away from another kid because he took your child's toy is living up to what we expect from our children. Some keep saying that one child snatching a toy from another child is aggressive, well the same rules apply to a parent (who is much bigger and stronger than the child).

















:

Pat


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
yeah i dont see how a 2/3 year old is supposed to understand the difference. We constantly say here in the GD forum that its import to model behavior, be consistent with what we are showing our kids and telling our kids. I don't think taking a toy away from another kid because he took your child's toy is living up to what we expect from our children. Some keep saying that one child snatching a toy from another child is aggressive, well the same rules apply to a parent (who is much bigger and stronger than the child).









I think it is also important to model for children how not to get walked on. And I feel compelled to protect my child. I believe that if another child takes her toy and I don't help her get it back in a timely manner, she is learning that I will stand by as injustice is done to her.

(Just to be clear, I'm not a grab it back right away type of mama, and I always do negotiation first, but sometimes if that fails I physically remove the toy while explaining why).


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

yeah i dont see how a 2/3 year old is supposed to understand the difference. We constantly say here in the GD forum that its import to model behavior, be consistent with what we are showing our kids and telling our kids.
Agreed! Giving back what does not belong to me is the behavior I would model. I think that's what many others are saying too.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Is someone here advocating taking a toy out of the hand of a child not their own?
I think one person suggested they may do this, but the rest are talking about whether to help *their own* child give back the toy.

Quote:

If a child grabbed my child's toy and did not give it back when asked, I would get that child's caregiver to get it back for us.
Right, and I think most agree with that. A few have said they would leave this up to their child to voluntarily give it back, and that is what caused disagreement.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
If a child grabbed my child's toy and did not give it back when asked, I would get that child's caregiver to get it back for us.

So then, what to do if the caregiver refuses? Really... I'm seriously asking.

Last week, at the wading pool, my ds and I were packing up to leave. We had brought a few toys to the pool -- ds understands that it's our family rule that any toy taken to a public place is to be shared -- and another child (maybe 5 years old or so) had been playing with our squirt bottle for quite some time.

I asked the child for the bottle as we were ready to go, explaining that we had brought it from home and had been happy to have shared it with him. He refused.

I then asked his mother who was so engrossed in her cell phone conversation that she hadn't noticed my approaching her child. She responded that her son was playing with it and she would see that it was returned when he was finished. I replied again that we were leaving for the day. Her answer was, and I quote, "well, what do you expect ME to do? He won't give it back to me either!" And then she laughed. I was speechless.

I left without the toy, but with a very upset ds. We stopped at Target and bought another squirt bottle on the way home.

I'm not sure what lesson was just taught to my son, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a good one.









--Olive


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Boongirl, I read that as referring to the child's own parent. You'll have to ask her to clarify.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I was talking about anyone taking the toy from the child. You, the other parent, or the child the toy was taken from. I don't agree with snatching or prying a toy from a child's grasp, whether its my child or someone elses.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
I'm not sure what lesson was just taught to my son, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a good one.









Well, how did you frame it for him? Did you talk about how some people haven't learned to respect other people's property? Did you talk about how he felt when the boy wouldn't give the toy back? Did you talk about stealing? Did you ask why HE thought the other boy didn't give back the toy? Did you ask what he thought about the mom's comment?

I guess I'm not so sure that wasn't a good lesson. Not saying that he ever did this, but it probably will help your ds feel more empathetic next time he wants to snatch someone else's toy.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

From the Gentle Discipline Moderators:

This thread is being returned with the following reminder to participants:

A parent using words, explanations and a firm yet gentle return of a toy not belonging to their child is within the boundaries of Gentle Discipline as it is practiced in this Forum.

Both the Gentle Discipline forum and MDC take a strong stance against spanking and physical punishment of children.

Please utilize this forum/thread to share real-life experiences, thoughts and insights rather than to criticize or denigrate. Please also remember that by your participation in this forum, you have agreed to abide by the MDC User Agreement.

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.
Oops! I guess questions have to be through pm.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

:


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Second that oops. I took my questions to PM as well.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Hi, as we said in the reminder, please direct all questions about this issue to a moderator via PM.

From the User Agreement:

Quote:

# Posting to debate or criticize the MDC User Agreement, or to otherwise discuss the moderators, administrators, or their actions. *Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification may be sent through the Private Message feature or by email to the moderator or administrator.*


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.
Please note that this is not an attempt to silence anyone, but rather a moderation decision made in an effort to keep this thread on the board, rather than have it explode into pointed criticism toward specific members.

This is a moderation decision, not a personal vendetta. Thanks for your cooperation.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

hard question really.

i encourage my child to give the toy back.

yeah, they should also not take the toy home with them...without permission. Yikes!

teaching to share takes effort though. on all parts.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom*
I have not yet read Unconditional Parenting, but have several aquaintances who are very into it. One said something on her blog recently that she never takes a toy away from her child if he snatches it from another child at the playground. When I see her next, I think I'll ask her about it, but *maybe in the meantime someone can explain this to me*.

If your child takes a toy from another child... _wouldn't you require them to give it back if it belongs to the other child or the other child had it first_? I can see talking to your child and encouraging them to give it back, explaining that their snatching has upset the other child ... but in the end, would you really just say "oh well, he doesn't want to give it up?" I don't understand this at all, and I don't think it's appropriate in a playground setting particularly.

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over. But playgrounds are different. In a playground setting, I think I would take the toy from the snatching child, and give it back to my child. And I would avoid the snatching child as best we could after that. If the parent got upset, well, I'm following the child's logic exactly (snatch toy, now it's mine to do as I like), and if she had no problem with her child employing it, then why would she have a problem with an adult employing it?

Also, if her child didn't want to give up a toy my family owns when we're leaving the playground, I'm still going to take it home with me in the end. If her child keeps it, it's robbery or theft as far as I can see.

*So someone give me the other side of this scenario, please*.

The OP specifically asks for the rationale for not taking a toy from a child's hand.









Pat


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
"well, what do you expect ME to do? He won't give it back to me either!"

I would have said "If you don't return my property, you can either pay for it or I will call the police." And I would do that. Really, he couldn't just walk out of a store with their property unless his mother paid for it. So why should he be able to walk off with yours?

Pat--yes, I did ask so I could try and understand. I get the concept much better now than I did before. It's not something I would ascribe nor aspire to personally, but I certainly respect it.

What would your response be if your child took my child's toy at the playground, refused to return it, and I said you would need to pay for it because we were leaving?

Also FYI--I did ask my acquaintance, and she basically hasn't run into a situation where her son couldn't be distracted to something else or convinced to return someone else's property, yet. She said she wasn't sure what she would do in that situation. And her toddler is pretty young yet.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Has it taken 15 minutes for anyone's kid here to give the toy back who doesn't practice taking it away?

I think this is what my friend is hoping will be the case with her son, and that there won't ever be a scenario where he totally refuses to return a snatched toy.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom*
I would have said "If you don't return my property, you can either pay for it or I will call the police." And I would do that. Really, he couldn't just walk out of a store with their property unless his mother paid for it. So why should he be able to walk off with yours?

Pat--yes, I did ask so I could try and understand. I get the concept much better now than I did before. It's not something I would ascribe nor aspire to personally, but I certainly respect it.

What would your response be if your child took my child's toy at the playground, refused to return it, and I said you would need to pay for it because we were leaving?

Also FYI--I did ask my acquaintance, and she basically hasn't run into a situation where her son couldn't be distracted to something else or convinced to return someone else's property, yet. She said she wasn't sure what she would do in that situation. And her toddler is pretty young yet.


I believe children have a reason for their actions and that a solution that meets the needs of all can be created. Personally, I can't imagine a child NEVER releasing the toy from his hand of his own accord. Our son at 3ish understood if something wasn't our car, wasn't our yard, wasn't our toy, was our house, was his chair, was his lovey. And children younger than that don't usually do anything for more than about 10 minutes before they drop it for something more interesting. Do you (generic) believe a parent would leave a park with someone else's toy intentionally? I can't actually believe that would happen. I can think of many 'what ifs'. What if a child took something from my purse, what if a child ate from our lunch bag, what if a child pushed someone at the top of the slide? There are always what ifs, but I don't believe that modelling taking things from anyone's hand is necessary.

I would pay for the toy before leaving a store. We would find some substitute toy that was mutually agreeable or we would discuss it and find a solution that didn't involve taking it from our son's hand. I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely?







It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

Pat


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Personally, I can't imagine a child NEVER releasing the toy from his hand of his own accord.
We see it all the time here (not with my child) but with kids around the apartment.

Quote:

I would pay for the toy before leaving a store. We would find some substitute toy that was mutually agreeable or we would discuss it and find a solution that didn't involve taking it from our son's hand.
And if you had no money to pay for the toy if the manager said please don't let him play with that then what?? I'm obviously missingsomething because I simpily fail to see how gently removing a toy or something not belonging to your child from them is soo horrible.







: I'm not suggesting going BAD NO and snaching it away


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
We see it all the time here (not with my child) but with kids around the apartment.

These are children whose parents practice AP and non-coercive discipline?

I think people are reacting to hypothetical situations that do not seem to be arising in families who parent this way.









My kid knows that I'm on his side and the information I give him is generally for his benefit. So when I say to him, "Listen buddy, we need to give this little guy the toy back, his family is leaving." He's cooperative. He understands the consequences and social norms of these situations now--b/c we have done lots of talking, problem solving, modeling, etc. since he was wee little.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamom*
I also believe that if a child experiences having things taken from their hand they are more apt to grip it for dear life.

And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.


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## ZeldasMom (Sep 25, 2004)

About how to get your child to give up the toy, if words weren't working, I might try gently and firmly hold my hands on the toy so my child wasn't able to play with it either. Hopefully this would help make the toy less appealing and my DC would let go.

There have been some times when my child was doing something unacceptable and my approach has been to say "X needs to happen. You can do it on your own or mama can help you. If you haven't done it by the time I count to 3, mama will help you." I say this quietly and gently and matter-of-factly, not in a scolding or threatening tone. If my 2 1/2 yo DS doesn't comply by the time I have counted to 3, I do physically intervene, which I rarely have to do.


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## ZeldasMom (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I do agree that it is best not to physically intervene and to find a way to use words if at all possible. I try to focus on being fexible and emotionally open with my child at times like these. Also, I come at the conversation with my child with the assumption that it will work to talk to him about the situation.

Still, I think with young toddlers, sometimes you do need to physically intervene. To me Alfie Kohn is most useful once your child is a tad older.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.

This is exactly what my dd is (slowly) learning. Most of the time, ds just wants to play, so he snatches something from dd. If she tries to snatch it back, he either runs for it, cackling, or gets in a tug of war. If she makes eye contact and asks him in a normal voice so he can understand, 9 times out of 10 he returns it.

But I thought this discussion was also about what to do if other children take your child's toy.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.

May i ask (Gently, I swear!) ask why the child playing with the toy should let the toy go and have to ask for it back? I am not sure what message is being sent to the snatcher. The child is taking something that either isnt his at all (like say at a playground) or something another child is playing with (like say at a playdate at my house, or at pre-school). Isnt that child being coerced? Isnt *he* being forced to do something he doesnt want to, which is give up his toy or one he is playing with?

How should the child ask for said toy? Is it with please and thank you? Can the word "mine" be mentioned? such as: "Thats mine, give it back?" Or should it be more generic: "I was playing with that, please give it back." Is the word "mine" in and of itself bad? Territorial? How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours? If we arent addressing the issue of taking whats not ours, then how will the snatcher learn that we dont do that? Because in reality, we (general we) dont take what isnt our because its wrong. I do not take Jane's book at the park because its hers, no matter how much I might want it. It is wrong to take things that arent ours. If we arent holding the snatcher accountable for their behavior and it doesnt *seem* to be when the child who had the toy snatched should either let it go to avoid a tug of war and then ask for it back, or wait while the snatcher process giving it back, how will they ever learn that its not OK to grab another childs toy?


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

These are children whose parents practice AP and non-coercive discipline?
Umm I seriously doubt it there are no parents period I'm the only one who thinks its necessary to keep my 3 year old in my view.







: but I'm no sure what what has to do with it??

Quote:

My kid knows that I'm on his side and the information I give him is generally for his benefit. So when I say to him, "Listen buddy, we need to give this little guy the toy back, his family is leaving." He's cooperative. He understands the consequences and social norms of these situations now--b/c we have done lots of talking, problem solving, modeling, etc. since he was wee little.
I overall agree but the OP from waht I remember (been so long







) wasn't refering to a parent reacting fast and taking a moment to gently guide a toy from their childs hands its was what is they WONT give it back. and yes I have seen children including my own who are raised very gently an AP that simpily want to keep the toy. and oce again I simpily fail to see how removing said toy gently and giving it back makes mea horrible parent and is detrmental to both my child and the others.







:


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
May i ask (Gently, I swear!) ask why the child playing with the toy should let the toy go and have to ask for it back? I am not sure what message is being sent to the snatcher. The child is taking something that either isnt his at all (like say at a playground) or something another child is playing with (like say at a playdate at my house, or at pre-school). Isnt that child being coerced? Isnt *he* being forced to do something he doesnt want to, which is give up his toy or one he is playing with?

How should the child ask for said toy? Is it with please and thank you? Can the word "mine" be mentioned? such as: "Thats mine, give it back?" Or should it be more generic: "I was playing with that, please give it back." Is the word "mine" in and of itself bad? Territorial? How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours? If we arent addressing the issue of taking whats not ours, then how will the snatcher learn that we dont do that? Because in reality, we (general we) dont take what isnt our because its wrong. I do not take Jane's book at the park because its hers, no matter how much I might want it. It is wrong to take things that arent ours. If we arent holding the snatcher accountable for their behavior and it doesnt *seem* to be when the child who had the toy snatched should either let it go to avoid a tug of war and then ask for it back, or wait while the snatcher process giving it back, how will they ever learn that its not OK to grab another childs toy?

Well, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.

I don't think my dd learns that it's okay that someone snatched a toy from her. By trying to prevent her from re-snatching, she gets the message quite clearly that it's NOT OKAY to snatch. She feels the wrongness of the other child's action, and then she learns the more appropriate behavior. Maybe the other child will, too.

I think condoning your child snatching her toy back is condoning a message of vengefulness. I want my child to learn to turn the other cheek, so to speak.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm feeling confused now - maybe what I'm thinking is completely off base.

Now, while some here may say they have *never* seen this happen, I'd honestly like to know what you would do if another child had a toy that belonged to your child, would not give it back, and the parent refused to intervene? Because, believe it or not, *I* have seen this happen.

Also, I was the one that said I would willingly remove a toy from another child's hand. When thinking about that really - it seems to me that it would be an invasion of that child's right to personal space, ykwim? And I wouldn't want someone doing that to my child either.

Maybe it's a hypothetical situation you'd have to actually be in; that way you could see how the conversation would evolve and how the child & parent would respond.

I'm learning a lot here.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

"Grabbing Our Way to Peace: responding to tugs of war and other battles of daily life" by Inbal Kashtan

A small excerpt from the article:
"When a "grabbing incident" takes place, however, we don't usually stop to think about our values and wishes for our children. While some of us let the children work things out for themselves, most of us intervene - to determine who had the object first and to make sure it is returned to that child; to remind or enforce a general rule about sharing or taking turns; or to administer a consequence such as a "time out." Yet while these interventions may provide momentary relief, I believe they undermine our ability to meet our own and our children's deeper needs.

What can we do if we want to use grabbing as an opportunity for all of us to learn to live in peace, to meet all our needs, and to internalize kindness, cooperation, and compassion? Nonviolent communication (NVC) offers a way to do that. (For a brief explanation of NVC, visit our [what is nvc] page.) I'd like to illustrate with an experience I recently had."


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Well, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.

I don't think my dd learns that it's okay that someone snatched a toy from her. By trying to prevent her from re-snatching, she gets the message quite clearly that it's NOT OKAY to snatch. She feels the wrongness of the other child's action, and then she learns the more appropriate behavior. Maybe the other child will, too.

I think condoning your child snatching her toy back is condoning a message of vengefulness. I want my child to learn to turn the other cheek, so to speak.

I do not condone snatching it back (although my son did this). My question is more about the snacther. How do we teach that child that its not OK to snatch when we are telling the child getting snatched that he should let go and ask for a toy that was his in the first place? I know what the child being snatched from is learning but it doesnt seem to me that the snacther is learning anything if we are allowing a child to be upset while he processes what he's going to do. His action is wrong by taking the toy from another. And again, are words like "mine" and "give it back" wrong? are they assertive or aggressive?


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

ell, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.
I don't think anyone is suggesting snatching it back.







: I wont allow my DD to hit a child who hit her I might though come put my arms around her and both comfort and restrain her from lashing out. similiar to if my child took something not theirs. I would go yank if from her hand yelling NO! I would come to her level reflect her wanting the toy explain its not her to play with and that I will help her return the toy. That sometimes means needing to physically remove it thats diffrent from grabbing.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours?


I don't do things because someone deems them right or wrong. Who is the judge of that for another person? I am not the judge of what is right or wrong for our son, either. I choose my actions based upon my own moral compass. Our son does the same. I model that I base my actions on how they affect other people, including and most especially how my actions affect our son is how he learns regard, respect and to honor others. So, by modelling regard, respect and honoring him or another child who grabs, he has a *choice* to see that using words, patience and non-physical means of getting our needs met with requests works. I don't want to model the opposite because I trust that he learns more from my actions than my words.

So, I would focus on my observations of the *impact* on others without attributing responsibility for other's feelings. I choose not to impact others in a manner that is hurtful, to the best of my awareness and ability. Please see the first link in post #16 of this thread for a template conversation. Or read the NVC link that Sledg just posted.

Pat


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

I'm joining this discussion late; it has been interesting to hear both sides. I would also intervene by taking the toy from my child to give it back to the child he took it from, if all else failed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely?







It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

I get that this is a hypothetical, and you've never actually been in this situation, nor do you expect to be, but none of the above solutions would be acceptable to me if a child grabbed my son's toy at the park. Nobody's leaving the park with his toy. I'd step in to get it back if I had to. It just isn't morally right to take something from somebody else without returning it. I love the idea of respecting a child enough to give the toy back when he or she is ready, but in reality, there is another child involved, and their rights should be respected just as much as the first child's.

Also, if your child wouldn't let go of a toy in the store, you would really buy it? That's very respectful of your child, but I can't wrap my head around it. I'd be broke if I bought every toy my kid wouldn't let go of in the store. I try being playing playful, I try being creative, compromising, etc., and sometimes he just won't let go. Buying it because he won't let go seems completely unbalanced to me. He has no way of understanding that buying that toy might mean eating nothing but beans for the rest of the week, and that eating nothing but beans for a week isn't too great for his body, or mine, or my husband's.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I'm feeling confused now - maybe what I'm thinking is completely off base.

Now, while some here may say they have *never* seen this happen, I'd honestly like to know what you would do if another child had a toy that belonged to your child, would not give it back, and the parent refused to intervene? Because, believe it or not, *I* have seen this happen.

Also, I was the one that said I would willingly remove a toy from another child's hand. When thinking about that really - it seems to me that it would be an invasion of that child's right to personal space, ykwim? And I wouldn't want someone doing that to my child either.

Maybe it's a hypothetical situation you'd have to actually be in; that way you could see how the conversation would evolve and how the child & parent would respond.

I'm learning a lot here.

I've definitely never had this happen to me. If my child grabbed another child's toy, I am willing to physically remove it from their hands and return it.

If another child, especially a stranger, snatched a toy from my child, I would not physically remove it. I would try to talk to the child, try to talk to the parent, like the pp did at the pool, and do everything I could to negotiate it back. But I wouldn't forcibly take it.


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## eggplant (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:



Quote:

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?
That's how I read it too, but my response was more of anger/irritation than sadness. I don't think my daughter's feelings are more important than other kids' feelings. If she's in the wrong, having taken another child's toy, then it seems to me that it is simply not our right to take as long as we want to work it out, to help her not be upset about giving it back, etc. The other child wants his/her toy back, and it's not up to us to decide that child should share, or should wait.

If someone takes my child's toy, I expect that child's parent to intervene, immediately. If the parent doesn't, I will. I'll say to the other child something like "that's X's toy, and she was using it" or "and she didn't say you could take it." And then "so you need to give it back to her now." I don't think I need to go find the other child's parent to intervene - I think that parent should be paying attention, and it's not my place to search for other parents in this situation. If that other parent objects to my telling their kid to return my kid's toy, that's too bad. The parent should have intervened first. If the other parent takes too long negotiating with the other kid, I will intervene again, and tell that parent "look, I realize that you're trying to work this out with your kid, but in the meantime, my child wants her toy back. We need it back now. Please either have your child give it back now or give it back to us yourself." And personally, I would have no problem taking it from the other child if that still didn't work (or if there was no parent there to intervene). I don't think that's "snatching" and i don't think it's comparable to hitting a child to teach not to hit. I think telling a child "this is my child's, and she asked for it back, and you need to return it now," while gently taking it back (the other child not having returned it the first time you asked) is a very reasonable response, and if anyone complained to me about my touching their child, I'd simply say that they should have been there themselves to intervene, and that their child took my child's toy and wouldn't return it, and that wasn't acceptable.

So, I think the OP and I had a similar response to that situation, and that the poster who actually encountered it was right to be fine with her daughter's taking her toy back.

OTOH, I was very surprised at another part of one of her posts, and especially so that no one else responded to it:

Quote:

Sharing when kids are this little, is so hard anyway. There are so many takes on what is fair and what's not fair. I probably drive other moms nuts. Our family rule is that if my daughter has a toy or is using a swing or whatever, it is her turn until she is done. Lots of moms want to time turns--Jimmy's turn for five minutes, dd turn for five minutes--but we just don't do that. If my daughter is in the swing, say, and someone wants to use it, I will ask my daughter if she is done and if she's not, I'll say, "She's using it right now. I'll let you know when she's done." And then I make sure I DO let the child know when she is done.
I know, though, lots of moms don't approve of this.
That would make me so crazy!! If your daughter were on a swing at a playground, and my daughter was standing there waiting to go on it, would you really not at any point intervene? You'd never point out to your daughter that someone else was waiting, and that the swings were for everyone? Wow. Would that still hold true if some other kid let YOUR daughter take over the swing when she had been on it? So, if my child were on a swing, and your child was waiting for it, and I asked mine (or she volunteered) to give yours a turn because she'd been on for awhile, and your child clearly was waiting for the swing....would you let her stay on indefinitely then? Even when my child was waiting for her turn again???

IMO, playground equipment is for everyone, and it's incredibly obnoxious to hog any piece of equipment to the exclusion of other kids' getting to use it. If my daughter and I have only half an hour at a playground, and swings are her very favorite thing to do, is it really okay with you if she never gets to use them because there are kids who will stay on for more than half an hour?

I'm not suggesting that kids need to give something up the instant someone else asks, or someone else wants something. If my child had just started on the swing, I certainly wouldn't think she should get off instantly because someone else comes along. But I think it's very reasonable to say, "she just got on the swing herself, but she'll be off soon so you can have a turn also" and then, yes, in five or ten minutes, remind her that other children are waiting.

It's not quite similar to the toy-snatching situation, in that the toy was clearly the possession of one child, and the other child had no right to it at all. But I do think it's similar in terms of not putting my own child's feelings ahead of other child's feelings as an automatic response, and wanting to teach my child that our actions affect others, etc.

Quote:



Quote:

Originally Posted by scubamama
I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

I get that this is a hypothetical, and you've never actually been in this situation, nor do you expect to be, but none of the above solutions would be acceptable to me if a child grabbed my son's toy at the park. Nobody's leaving the park with his toy. I'd step in to get it back if I had to. It just isn't morally right to take something from somebody else without returning it. I love the idea of respecting a child enough to give the toy back when he or she is ready, but in reality, there is another child involved, and their rights should be respected just as much as the first child's.
Saw this after I posted, and ITA. There's no way that'd be okay with me! If your child takes my child's toy, it's just not up to you to decide your child is keeping it!! Offering to return it later or pay for it is fine, if I'm okay with that, but if I say no, that's just too bad for you - it doesn't belong to you, and it does belong with us, and you just don't get to make that decision to keep it, regardless of your own plans to reimburse or return later. If my kid wants her toy back, you will arrange to get it back to her right then, or I will arrange for that myself.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

OK. Pat, I understand you not judging.

But according to your own moral compass, and not societies or anyone elses, is taking something thats not yours right or wrong?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom*

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over.









That is not a "natural" consequence. It is a "logical" consequence. Its not natural because its a consequence that involves you doing something (i.e. refraining from inviting them). Just fyi -- those 2 get confused a lot.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I do not condone snatching it back (although my son did this). My question is more about the snacther. How do we teach that child that its not OK to snatch when we are telling the child getting snatched that he should let go and ask for a toy that was his in the first place? I know what the child being snatched from is learning but it doesnt seem to me that the snacther is learning anything if we are allowing a child to be upset while he processes what he's going to do. His action is wrong by taking the toy from another. And again, are words like "mine" and "give it back" wrong? are they assertive or aggressive?

Well, I guess I think they would generalize the lesson from what they hear you telling the other child. My children have. I don't think that my ds thinks it's okay that he snatched the toy when I insist that my dd ask for it. I use language that includes a lot of "we"s, so I think he gets it. It's mostly a self-control issue for him.

If this is just some stranger that you've never seen before, you probably aren't really going to have an effect on their behavior, nor do you have that responsibility. You want to help YOUR child learn to behave appropriately.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by scubamama
I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".
Never give me a note like that







Are you serious?? (I'm being serious) maybe you have an amzing amount of money and can buy your child out of these situations which I feel sends its own bad message but we can't. Toys here are chosen for my DD with care and we don't but them often, while I don't expect you to be responsible for my income its NOT your place to decide that my child can't have back before we leave (and I honestly feel it should be sooner) whats rightfully hers. So I guess you have no resposonbility when it comes to explaining to MY child why she can't have HER toy back?? Why she needs to wait. So I feel that anychild going to hol in indeffiently umm no but nor do I see any reason to have another child leave with your property and I certainly wouldn't allow mine to do so. Offering to trade buy or replace my childs toy is just plain rude IMHO. Well offering isn't but assuming I'll need to make the choice is and IMHO corosion.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nurturing Mama*

Also, if your child wouldn't let go of a toy in the store, you would really buy it? That's very respectful of your child, but I can't wrap my head around it. I'd be broke if I bought every toy my kid wouldn't let go of in the store. I try being playing playful, I try being creative, compromising, etc., and sometimes he just won't let go. Buying it because he won't let go seems completely unbalanced to me. He has no way of understanding that buying that toy might mean eating nothing but beans for the rest of the week, and that eating nothing but beans for a week isn't too great for his body, or mine, or my husband's.

We did have a situation one time when ds wanted something and I didn't have the funds that day. It was something that he had wanted in the past but hadn't been discussed in a while, so I really didn't feel it was a big issue to him. But, he was tired and *really* wanted it. This happened about 3 months ago and was the very first time that he had ever wanted something that we really were not prepared to buy or discuss the pros and cons and come to an agreement. Frankly, I think I made it an issue by deciding that *I* didn't think it was "worth the money". Usually we discuss what he likes about a toy, I connect with him about what he wants to do with the toy and we discuss ways we can meet his desire to have his needs related to the toy met. We rarely buy anything retail. I am a big consignment shopper or discount buyer.

Anyway, I didn't stuggle with him about it. We talked about the best way to get the toy most affordably, when we would do that, we called dh to check e-bay, and we talked about the cost compared to other things that he also has on a running 'Wish List' and my concerns regarding the cheap plastic expensive aspects. We agreeably left the store without the toy. Hundreds of other times, he has picked up toys, we have discussed the pros and cons and he decides that he doesn't want it, or we plan for it or seek it out through discount stores. I believe the key is that he *trusts* that we will find a way to get the things that he wants and needs, if not immediately, when we can.

OT, sorry.

Pat

Pat


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Again it must be nice to be able to buy your child whatever they "want' even cheep stuff. Some of us just can't do that, We can't do Ebay or anything else plus exactly how does that work with say a 10 month old??







: My child knows when we are going inot a store its not to by her things she just doesn't ask anymore. I'm sure its because I've destroyed her spirt though.







:


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I think a big difference between some people's POV and my own is that I don't consider it "wrong" for a 2 or 3 year old child to take a toy from another child.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Everyone stop posting so fast.


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## eggplant (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I'm frankly quite surprised at what some people would do to retrieve a snatched toy, (I'd give examples, but then I would be openly disagreeing with someone else's parenting. I've already been asked to edit because of this, so reread the last couple pages if it's not clear what I'm referring to.). While I don't like the expression "pick your battles," it applies here IMO. Some things are just not worth it. We are talking about toddlers, 2 and 3 year olds who are still learning about the world. Sometimes it is better to walk away, even if that means the other person "wins," (for those who see it that way.) It's interesting how differently we all see this, because I think it (never giving in and refusing to back down until a toy is returned,) models materialism, among other things, and that is not what I want to model.

I don't see it as modeling materialism as much as teaching my child that I will support her, and not leave her to fend for herself when others take her things or do other things to her she doesn't like. I don't think wanting your own things is inherently bad, or is necessarily "materialism" the way I usually think of it, which is focusing on stuff to the exclusion of other things.

I wonder if you take the same "pick your battles" approach for people who might want YOUR things? If not, what does it say about your views of your right to your own possessions vs the rights of your child to hers?

Quote:

I think a big difference between some people's POV and my own is that I don't consider it "wrong" for a 2 or 3 year old child to take a toy from another child.
I don't think it's "wrong" in the sense that the child means something bad by doing it, or should know not to. I do think it's wrong in that it's not the child's to take or to keep, and it's up to us, the adults, to teach the child that. AND, to ensure that the child whose toy was taken doesn't lose her toy because of its being taken.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*







That is not a "natural" consequence. It is a "logical" consequence. Its not natural because its a consequence that involves you doing something (i.e. refraining from inviting them). Just fyi -- those 2 get confused a lot.

I think an argument can be made either way. if you don't act friendly you don't have friends. sounds natrual to me.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

I'm frankly quite surprised at what some people would do to retrieve a snatched toy, (I'd give examples, but then I would be openly disagreeing with someone else's parenting.
Again - I think there is some disparity between just a bucket or sand shovel in the local sandbox at the park, and a child's favorite doll or stuffed animal.

Because (like I mentioned previously) my flexibility (and my child's) over an unimportant toy would be a lot greater than if my daughter was shrieking for her 'teetee baby' - cause you can bet there'd be words over that!









scubamama - I'm sorry. I'm trying really, really, really hard to read what you're writing carefully... but it's still coming off to me as completely unreal. You would honestly try to just return a toy to another child that yours was unwilling to give up? At a later time? Or offer money for it?

I am all for conversation, allowing kids to work on issues, giving toddlers/preschoolers extra room for understanding, etc. - but that just does not make any sense. If another child had my child's toy and I was leaving the park/group/etc. - I would demand it back (from the parent, excluding the child at this point) or I would be calling the police. At that point it would be theft...

But, that's all hypothetical (again) and I can't see that happening!







:


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I think a big difference between some people's POV and my own is that I don't consider it "wrong" for a 2 or 3 year old child to take a toy from another child.









Its not an evil that childs being a bad person crime but its not "right" eaither???


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

I wonder if you take the same "pick your battles" approach for people who might want YOUR things?
I don't normally encounter this unless I'm dealing wiht 2 and 3 year olds, and in that case, yes.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Umm I seriously doubt it there are no parents period I'm the only one who thinks its necessary to keep my 3 year old in my view.







: but I'm no sure what what has to do with it??

I overall agree but the OP from waht I remember (been so long







) wasn't refering to a parent reacting fast and taking a moment to gently guide a toy from their childs hands its was what is they WONT give it back. and yes I have seen children including my own who are raised very gently an AP that simpily want to keep the toy. and oce again I simpily fail to see how removing said toy gently and giving it back makes mea horrible parent and is detrmental to both my child and the others.







:

The OP was asking people who would use a cooperative/consensual approach about toy snatching at the park and how they would handle it. And several of us did. Then it turned into "what if it took 15 minutes?" and "what if the child NEVER wanted to give it back?"

And honestly, I think people are being extremely patient trying to walk people through what the process would like w/out prying the toy out of the kid's hand.

BUT, NONE OF US SEEM TO HAVE BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE OUR KID HAS TAKEN MORE THAN A FEW MOMENTS OR HAS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THE TOY BACK.

So, the scary slippery-slope of "Well, if you just let them give it back when they're ready, they'd never give it back" scenario does not seem to exist for us.

Talking about kids who are left to fend for themselves who don't want to give a toy back or who are not able to be reasoned with is NOT talking about kids whose parents are actively involved and providing the kid with information and helping them make appropriate decisions and actions WITHOUT prying a toy out of their hand.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
I think an argument can be made either way. if you don't act friendly you don't have friends. sounds natrual to me.

Well - not really? If there is any action on the parents part (even negative action - such as refraining from doing something you otherwise would have done - like invite them over to play) - that's an imposed consequence - not a natural consequence. Hopefully the imposed consequences are "logical" - but that is a whole other topic . . . .

The examples given in the parenting books that discuss this - are usually more things like . . . .You ask DC to put on rain jacket because it is raining. DC refuses. DC goes out in rain and gets wet. The "getting wet" is the natural consequence. If you would have said, "DC - you may not go outside unless you wear your coat" - that's an imposed consequence, that is also logical as it is related to the action, etc etc ya da ya da


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

It's interesting how differently we all see this, because I think it (never giving in and refusing to back down until a toy is returned,) models materialism, among other things, and that is not what I want to model.
How does standing up for yourself or your child in anyway model materialism? Is it because the object is a toy?

Another poster mentioned buying a toy that the child wouldnt let go of, either in the store or on the playground, what are we teaching our kids there? If i bought my kids every toy he wouldnt let go of I'd be on the bread line. Kids have to understand that they dont always get what they want, that they cant take something thats not theirs. It seems to me that this is all about the snatcher and his feelings. God forbid _his feelings should get hurt all the while another child is crying waiting for a toy thats his and was taken!_ Why arent we more concerned about the child whose toy was taken? This isnt a gray area people, taking something that isnt yours is wrong. Not just in my opinion, but most people.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
OK. Pat, I understand you not judging.

But according to your own moral compass, and not societies or anyone elses, is taking something thats not yours right or wrong?

You probably don't want this answer, but I don't believe in any absolute right and wrong. I can only judge what is *right* for me. And I believe others have the same ability to judge "right" for themself, including children. I *choose* to honor other's judgement of what is "right" for them based upon their consent when my actions would/could impact them. So, this is what I model. Ds similarly seems to have developed concern for other's opinion about how his actions impact them. I won't say that he always chooses not to impact others. Or that he is always aware of his impact on others, but then nor am I. But I work to increase our awareness and facilitiate him getting his needs met at the same time as others getting their needs met. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive. And I do work to honor other's who are impacted by anyone's actions by intervening to find a solution which feels "right" to each individual, that is why I am a child advocate. I believe their consent/dissent is as important as my own when I don't want something done to me. I certainly don't want anyone *making* me do anything I don't want to do. I am not saying it is right or wrong. I trust the child's opinion for himself. Just as I trust my opinion for what is right for me.

So, I wouldn't take something that wasn't mine if I believed that the other person didn't consent. I don't believe that our son has established a "philosophy" about this yet, but he pretty much does what he sees modelled. And he has seen some people taking things from children, but not often. And I don't believe that we have ever taken anything from him. A few friends and children at the park have, but we worked it out "using our words".

Oh, and property rights and economic inequality are ambiguous areas that I haven't quite figured out. I don't believe that there is an absolute right and wrong to the concepts of property. Property is a construct based upon a arbitrary value of exchange of services in our country. I believe a "gold standard" is a more absolute determination of value, but that is for another forum.









Pat


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

BUT, NONE OF US SEEM TO HAVE BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE OUR KID HAS TAKEN MORE THAN A FEW MOMENTS OR HAS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THE TOY BACK.
Well honestly I haven't with my own because I've intervined and getten it back but I've seen it quuite often, again the lack of parents around I'm sure plays a huge roll but I see lots of snatching and refusal to give things back. I had a neighborhood kid take a doll from me when I was 7 and refuse to return it. And had parents who didn't insist she did.. So yes it happens and I still miss that doll


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Another poster mentioned buying a toy that the child wouldnt let go of, either in the store or on the playground, what are we teaching our kids there? If i bought my kids every toy he wouldnt let go of I'd be on the bread line. Kids have to understand that they dont always get what they want, that they cant take something thats not theirs. It seems to me that this is all about the snatcher and his feelings. God forbid _his feelings should get hurt all the while another child is crying waiting for a toy thats his and was taken!_ Why arent we more concerned about the child whose toy was taken? This isnt a gray area people, taking something that isnt yours is wrong. Not just in my opinion, but most people.

I think people are saying that not using force to remove something from their own child's hand is more important than doing whatever you have to do to make the other child feel better.

While I have helped children (mine and others--depending on which side of this my kid has been on) in these situations, I have *heavily* focused on the child who has had the toy taken away--pointing out how s/he must be feeling, how can we help her/him feel better, how would you feel if someone took your toy, etc.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

That would make me so crazy!! If your daughter were on a swing at a playground, and my daughter was standing there waiting to go on it, would you really not at any point intervene? You'd never point out to your daughter that someone else was waiting, and that the swings were for everyone? Wow. Would that still hold true if some other kid let YOUR daughter take over the swing when she had been on it? So, if my child were on a swing, and your child was waiting for it, and I asked mine (or she volunteered) to give yours a turn because she'd been on for awhile, and your child clearly was waiting for the swing....would you let her stay on indefinitely then? Even when my child was waiting for her turn again???

What would you do if all the picnic tables were in use? Ask a family to move because you want a turn? Sometimes in public, all the equipment is in use. Sometimes we can negotiate taking turns or sharing. Sometimes the nature of the situation is that someone doesn't want to take turns or share. I am thinking of people riding the subway stand up while others are sitting the whole way. Or that someone stands up in front of you at a concert, blocking your view. Or that people park taking up two places, cut you off in traffic, take the last carton of eggs at the store, etc. It happens all the time.

I would definitely discuss my observations about the other child wanting a turn, that she is waiting. I'd suggest alternatives for both children, engage and redirect to a mutually agreeable alternative, if possible. I carry bubbles for emergencies in my trunk for just this purpose. Our son and most children find bubbles irresistable. I have considered carrying one of those little wedding sized bubbles in my purse, even. But, seriously, the limited time that a child has available at the park isn't another child's problem to solve. Certainly, I would encourage him to consider your child's needs, but not at the expense of his own. I trust that we could find a solution that meets everyone's needs without forcing anyone to get off the swing. But one solution is to come to the park with more time, more often, or when fewer people are there if this happens repeatedly. I, nor our son, can make that happen for someone else's child though. I do want that for them and might even mention that we come frequently and would our son be willing to come back to the swings, yada, yada.

Pat


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

Oh, and property rights and economic inequality are ambiguous areas that I haven't quite figured out. I don't believe that there is an absolute right and wrong to the concepts of property. Property is a construct based upon a arbitrary value of exchange of services in our country. I believe a "gold standard" is a more absolute determination of value, but that is for another forum.
I'm sorry - but that's not an idea most three year olds (or two or four) would understand. Quite frankly I agree with sweetbaby3; taking something that isn't yours and then not fully expecting the 'taker' to return the object in very timely manner is not a very realistic concept. For adults either...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I'm sorry - but that's not an idea most three year olds (or two or four) would understand. Quite frankly I agree with sweetbaby3; taking something that isn't yours and then not fully expecting the 'taker' to return the object in very timely manner is not a very realistic concept. For adults either...

And those of us who don't take things from our children's hands have experienced these issues and haven't had anyone waiting long periods of time while a child cries, nor leaving without their belongings.







The use of coercion isn't necessary, imo. (And please don't tell me ds is easy or that I only have one.) We have practiced the same non-coercive interactions with other children and they respond similarly to being treated with respect. But ds is used to being treated respectfully and understands when others expect to be treated similarly. It is not like he doesn't see or care that the other child is upset. He is always concerned when he sees a child crying, since forever. And as soon as he was able, said 'she needs her mama' whenever a child was crying. I would imagine that a child who is disregarded when they cry, learns to disregard the crying of others. And ds trusts that what I am telling him is accurate that 'we need to give the toy back' and he does/did, even at 3. I just waited patiently while empathizing with the other child and ds *choose* to return the toy. We haven't bought anybody's toys following this principle.

What more can we keep repeating? Children do what they see modelled, eventually. And eventually, a child is tired of holding a toy that no one is trying to take and they move on to something more interesting. And "eventually" has never taken more than a few minutes for us.

Pat


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

What more can we keep repeating? Children do what they see modelled, eventually. And eventually, a child is tired of holding a toy that no one is trying to take and they move on to something more interesting. And "eventually" has never taken more than a few minutes for us.
I can appreciate that as *your* personal experience.

I suppose I'll only be so lucky if it is *mine* - but, I have seen it take more than a few minutes. Do I need to keep repeating that? Not to be snarky, but your tone was coming across as condescending.









We have all come from different aspects of parenting, and while I fully believe in gentle discipline, natural consequences, and so far have not even had to use _*any*_ form of discipline with my three year old - _I_ just have not ever seen (again, in my personal realm) the scenario _you're_ describing.

This is beginning to look like a case of agree to disagree.







:

ETA -

Quote:

I would imagine that a child who is disregarded when they cry, learns to disregard the crying of others.
That may or may not necessarily be true. My child has never, never, ever been disregarded when she was crying. We are completely empathetic to her needs... Having said that, as a two year old, even within the last six to eight months - if she was the 'snatcher', she was more interested in the toy she had acquired than the shrieking child from whom it came.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I can appreciate that as *your* personal experience.

I suppose I'll only be so lucky if it is *mine* - but, I have seen it take more than a few minutes. Do I need to keep repeating that? Not to be snarky, but your tone was coming across as condescending.









Thanks for the feedback. I don't honestly know what else to say, not intending to be condescending. I posted a link on page 1 of this thread that says the same thing everyone keeps responding. We need a "beating the dead horse" icon.









Quote:

We have all come from different aspects of parenting, and while I fully believe in gentle discipline, natural consequences, and so far have not even had to use _*any*_ form of discipline with my three year old - _I_ just have not ever seen (again, in my personal realm) the scenario _you're_ describing.

This is beginning to look like a case of agree to disagree.







:
We also have never used any form of "discipline" with our 5.3 year old. Our son is an autonomous being. Perhaps it is the community that is the difference? We have a huge AP/unschooling community and no one makes the children do things they don't want to do and the children are all quite compassionate and considerate at a very young age.

Quote:

ETA -

That may or may not necessarily be true. My child has never, never, ever been disregarded when she was crying. We are completely empathetic to her needs... Having said that, as a two year old, even within the last six to eight months - if she was the 'snatcher', she was more interested in the toy she had acquired than the shrieking child from whom it came.
I found that this was usually associated with an unmet HALT need, in our experience. We would move *towards* that :food, space, cuddle/attention, napping. I found this is a cue of unmet underlying needs when ds was less able to hear other's needs. So, I would connect with him through empathizing and together we would address those needs. He just is willing to let me help him.

HTH, Pat


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

PM'd you! That last post really got me thinking...


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

From the MDC User Agreement:

Quote:

*Posting to debate or criticize* the MDC User Agreement, or to *otherwise discuss the moderators*, administrators, *or their actions*. Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification may be sent through the Private Message feature or by email to the moderator or administrator.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Good morning, everyone! I wanted to apologize for leaving this thread closed overnight. There was some work that needed to be done on the thread, and I temporarily closed the thread to new posts. I accidentally fell asleep in the meantime.

Bad news: I had a bunch of upset PMs when I woke up this morning.

Good news: no one complained on the board about me AND I got a great night's sleep









Thank you for your patience. We are currently trying to meet everyone's needs for understanding and respect. I hope this thread can continue to be a source of information rather than criticism. Thanks, everyone for your considerate participation and cooperation.

The GD Forum has a specific intent:

Quote:

*to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.*
And Peggy O'Mara's definition of GD:

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*Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.*
Please note that this definition leaves much open to personal interpretation based on individual temperaments, age, family situations, etc. There is no one, single "right" way to GD. Please be aware that what you (general you







) feel is right for your family may not feel right for others.

Please be considerate of other's feelings and assume positive intent when asking and responding to questions. This will help create and maintain a welcoming and supportive atmosphere which is conducive to learning and understanding.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Hmm, I have to say that we have experienced some of the "discuss the thing for 10 minutes while my son sits and waits for his toy" scenarios. And honestly, it drives me batty. Half the time the kid who grabbed it is sitting there playing with it while the mom blabs on and on about him giving it back. I am definitely NOT a proponent of grabbing things from kids, and do agree with trying to work it out first. But that other parent should have made sure that my son got his shovel back, and then she can continue to address it with her child.

And yes, I have had to take things from my 2yo to give back to another child. Not often, but it has happened. It turns out he was tired or hungry or had something else going on, because normally he can be distracted or is very reasonable about what I request. But no, I wasn't going to follow him around the playground asking for the toy back while he plays with the toy car he just snatched for 10 minutes while the other little boy just watches and cries.

Of course grabbing from a child is not a good idea. But every once in awhile it becomes necessary. And no, I would never touch another person's child. I would find the caregiver and make sure we got the toy back. If that has to involve wrangling it from their hands, well, then so be it. Real life doesn't always fit nicely into perfect theoretical terms.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Well said mama.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I had forgotten I wanted to interject this from the About MDC link:

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*Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of family life in the development of the full human potential of parents and children. At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.*
Let's remember that when talking about hypotheticals, it's easy to get bogged down in the "what ifs." Thanks, everyone for keeping this about the "real world" of parenting, first and foremost.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
The OP was asking people who would use a cooperative/consensual approach about toy snatching at the park and how they would handle it. And several of us did. Then it turned into "what if it took 15 minutes?" and "what if the child NEVER wanted to give it back?" [...]

BUT, NONE OF US SEEM TO HAVE BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE OUR KID HAS TAKEN MORE THAN A FEW MOMENTS OR HAS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THE TOY BACK. [...]

Talking about kids who are left to fend for themselves who don't want to give a toy back or who are not able to be reasoned with is NOT talking about kids whose parents are actively involved and providing the kid with information and helping them make appropriate decisions and actions WITHOUT prying a toy out of their hand.

But the 15 minutes example was not a hypothetical - it was a real situation someone on this board had been in. Her daughter waited 15 minutes while the other kid's mom used noncoercive techniques to try to help her son be okay with giving it back. So regardless of whether any of the noncoercive mothers involved in this conversation have ever been in that situation, it seems clear that noncoercive parenting in itself does not *rule out* situations like that.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5*
But the 15 minutes example was not a hypothetical - it was a real situation someone on this board had been in. Her daughter waited 15 minutes while the other kid's mom used noncoercive techniques to try to help her son be okay with giving it back. So regardless of whether any of the noncoercive mothers involved in this conversation have ever been in that situation, it seems clear that noncoercive parenting in itself does not *rule out* situations like that.

I'm not saying that it rules out situations like that.

I'm saying that asking a bunch of people why they do something and then asking, "Well, what if xyz?" and "What about abc?" and then criticizing those "Well, I guess I'd try this, or this, or this." reponses and holding them up as far-fetched and ridiculous seems a little strange to me.

Do we ask the CLWers what they're going to do when their nurslings are still wanting to nurse well into the teen years? And when they say, "That's outside the scope of my experience with CLWers." do we say, "Well, I know someone whose kid *did* nurse until s/he was 15! What would you do if your kid was 10? or 8?" Would it be OK to then criticize the hypothetical response to the hypothetical queston for not being realistic or practical?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I'm not saying that it rules out situations like that.

I'm saying that asking a bunch of people why they do something and then asking, "Well, what if xyz?" and "What about abc?" and then criticizing those "Well, I guess I'd try this, or this, or this." reponses and holding them up as far-fetched and ridiculous seems a little strange to me.

Do we ask the CLWers what they're going to do when their nurslings are still wanting to nurse well into the teen years? And when they say, "That's outside the scope of my experience with CLWers." do we say, "Well, I know someone whose kid *did* nurse until s/he was 15! What would you do if your kid was 10? or 8?" Would it be OK to then criticize the hypothetical response to the hypothetical queston for not being realistic or practical?

But it's not a hypothetical. The OP was in that situation. I have been in that situation. Have you ever seen a post by someone that said "Help! My 15 year old is still nursing!"?


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Reading this thread I started to wonder if I might be the mom that was being bashed. Eventually I read that the 15 minutes of waiting included two songs. Phew! Not me! Not a singer, at least not a singer in public.

Actually, I don't recall Simon ever taking that long to return an item. He isn't much of a snatcher and if he has taken something, getting it back from him -- if I felt that was important -- has not been much of an issue and has not taken long (if I remember correctly). I just thought I might be the mom as who knows, maybe what felt like a few minutes to me was actually 15, or maybe it just felt like 15 to the other mom. I know that 5 minutes of a stressful situation with Simon can feel a lot longer than that.

I'm not sure what to say to this thread. I take the grabbing of toys much more lightly than most of the posters here seem to do. I certainly don't jump into heavy ethical terms when thinking about what I'd do if I were in either of the two main positions being discussed (i.e., the mom of the grabber and the mom of the child whose toy had been grabbed. "Victim" seems a really loaded take on the situation, imo. Doing without one's toy for 15 minutes hardly makes one a victim, at least in my books. I think children are extremely perceptive. If a child senses that mom's blood is boiling and mom thinks a major and very threatening injustice has transpired, her child is apt to pick up on that and respond with like intensity. A study of mom and baby combos listening to music and getting the same pleasure and tense sensations at the same times is coming to mind though I can't remember the details at the moment.

If a child yanked one of Simon's toys and he got really upset about it, I think I'd be focused primarily on comforting him until the biggest emotions were out (which tends to take a maximum of a few minutes, especially if he wants to nurse in some calming hormones). Of course I'd first say that Simon did not want to share the toy and could he please have it back. If this wasn't successful, we might even walk away for a minute as I wouldn't be comfortable saying some of what I'd be likely to say in front of the grabbing child. E.g., I can imagine saying (after the biggest emotions were out), "He took your toy from your hands! You are angry and upset about that. That was a rude thing to do!!! (A judgment there; I'm philosophically thinking I shouldn't judge (har har) but this is what first comes to mind. I imagine I'd also correct myself and say: "I don't think he meant to be rude. He just thought your toy was so cool he couldn't resist it.") We'll get your toy back soon. He won't leave with it. He loves your toy and he's having a hard time giving it back to you. Giving up such a cool toy is hard to do." I think some space would help Simon cope with the upset. I can't at all fathom him being upset for 15 minutes over the toy though. If Simon didn't want to have some space from his toy, I'm sure he'd make that very clear to me and we'd find another way to cope until it was returned.

If Simon were the grabber, I can't imagine it taking that long, but if he were tired or whatnot that is a possibility. I might gauge the situation and how he's feeling. If a very small amount of pressure would help me to get the item from his hand and for us to move on, I may do that. I'm talking really small here... like his grip would be so loose that he wouldn't do anything to protest my taking it. If I were to resort to grabbing it from him, or prying it from his hands, that would feel completely wrong to me. If I did that as a result of pressure from the other mother, I'd feel ashamed of myself for not sticking to my values and finding an agreeable solution.

I'm not seeing why waiting 15 minutes is a huge deal, which is not to say that I feel this type of situation often takes anywhere near that long to be resolved. I feel as though there is a way for the child whose toy was grabbed to be comforted so that the upset doesn't escalate to great heights. The child didn't run off to the hills with the toy afterall. I'm thinking that once his upset passed, Simon might find the exchange interesting. I'll turn the tables a bit. For those who have waited 15 minutes for a child to return a toy (or seen this situation carried out), has the child from whom it was grabbed actually been really upset the entire time this has happened? If so, what was done to help the child to cope with the situation? Might something else have been more effective at calming the child?

You might respond that your life is busy and you just have to leave at that moment. I get that but don't see it as justifying a need to yank the toy away from my son. Simon gets it when someone is leaving. A toy he might otherwise cling to (e.g., if the owner of it weren't around and not showing interest in it) would be swiftly let go of if the parent or child announced that they were about to leave the park, so they need their toy back (I hope they'd announce this politely!). This has happened a handful of times at the beach. So... my experiences don't jive with those of some of the other posters who are saying it's o.k. to grab back the toy in this situation. If you were in a big rush and he still needed a few minutes, I still doubt that I would forcibly take it from him, but I just don't see him not being agreeable about giving it back. With toddlers it's a good idea to budget extra time for contingencies if at all possible.

Might it be excessively permissive or non-involved parents whose children are apt to cling, cling, cling, cling even when all of the cues in the environment are showing that letting go of the toy is pretty important? The cell-phone mom certainly sounds like she might be a candidate for this category. My mom hated to see us upset and we'd go through some outlandish scenes because of this -- and because she did nothing to prepare us for the upsets as she was usually too busy for us. So I can somewhat imagine a dynamic with that type of caregivers leading to such a nonreasonable response from a child. And, as others have mentioned, when children are so young that they aren't apt to get the reasons, they can be easily distracted in other ways or wouldn't have to be distracted as it wouldn't be long before they'd be ready to move onto something else anyway.

I'll agree that in some extremely rare situations prying a toy might be the best of rotten alternatives, but these would be extremely rare (there are better alternatives if we have the time to find them). Perhaps the child is not agreeing to let go of the item despite having the information that its the other child's and that child has to catch a plane that is currently boarding. It seems to me though that a child who is used to finding mutually agreeable solutions and considering others needs would not refuse to give the toy back (unless perhaps under an undue amount of stress or otherwise not having her or his needs met).

I agree with the assessment that it seems a bit materialistic to get so upset over a child grabbing and having fun with an item for 15 minutes or whatever. The item is not being threatened -- no one said that the grabber was bashing a beloved porcelean doll into the ground. I do see the situation as a lot like sharing. The child doesn't want to share her toy. I think that if asked, she should have every right to say so and to prevent a child from taking it. If a chlid takes it anyway, I think the next step is damage control -- to get the toy back to the non-sharer, or perhaps see if she'll change her mind about sharing it -- in a way that is peaceful and respectful to everyone involved. Even if it is thought that the grabber wasn't respectful to the grabbed-from, I don't see grabbing the item back from him/her or physically prying it away as peaceful or respectful solutions.

There is a lot of talk in this thread about learning lessons. What is a child learning from this experience? Well, if I do x, what lesson will that teach!? I find that when I've started to think in this way, I've become more stern and far less effective. I have far more success, and avoid some pretty foul moods, if I focus instead on the here and now. Simon is whining. Ouch that hurts my ears. What unmet need might he be experiencing that is coming off in that way? What is he feeling right now? Thinking along those lines leads to a more productive result than: "OMG! I can't stand this. He needs to learn to ask for things, with words! Simon, please use your words! Please ask to be picked up rather than whine like that. [At which point he gets upset since he was clearly upset and off-kilter to begin with.] Yada yada. That example is a bit dated. It's from when he was maybe 14 months old or something like that (at least old enough to know "up"). It sticks in my mind though as I started to think in terms of teaching him lessons and his whining escalated to new heights. When I got over that issue and just tended to his needs, things calmed quickly and the huge issue of his whining completely faded. He sometimes whines now, and I still don't like it, but it's not a big issue. I feel that if I kept trying to teach him the "right lessons" about whining, it would have become an issue and would have damaged our relationship in the process.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
But it's not a hypothetical. The OP was in that situation. I have been in that situation. Have you ever seen a post by someone that said "Help! My 15 year old is still nursing!"?

It's a hypothetical situation to the moms in this thread who are trying to "give the other side" as the OP asked for.

The OP was not in that situation. She asked for understanding about the practice of not forcing a kid to give a snatched toy back.

I have seen lots and lots of "When are they too old?" nursing threads.


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