# 4 days into PS Kindy, and I'm not doing well (x-post)



## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Temecula Valley, So. Cal
Posts: 533
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4 days into PS Kindy, and I'm not doing well
First off, our first choice was this great charter school. We are on the waiting list. So until then, it is the school down the street. The teacher seemed fine up until she brought up her behavior chart This is how it goes:
Purple: exceptional behavior
Green: Great, on task behavior (everybody starts out the day with green).
Yellow: OOps, Warning 1
Orange: Oh my, Warning 2
Red: Uh Oh, Time out! Call home
The children are told to change their color card when "x" behavior is committed, they can earn back to green, and she reminds them that they make the choices for that behavior.
So, my son cmes home and is disappointed because he did everything he thought he needed to do to earn a purple card and didn't get it. Now I'm because i feel that this is only to deal with the children who "misbehave". The kids get a prize if the earn so many purples but get donut (the big zero) for staying on task and having good behavior. I want my child to be internally motivated. I feel this is teaching him if he behaves this way he gets something. I also don't want him to be discouraged because he always stays on green. Staying on green sounds great to me! I am so upset right now. I could go on and on and on about why i think this is wrong.
Deep breath.
Thanks!


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

This seems fairly normal, tbh...not saying that it's good, just common.









I live in the area that you do (I'm guessing you're very close to me, because our district is also 4 days or so into kindy), and if you're waitlisted at the charter school that I'm thinking of, I believe they use a similar method. My DD is in a private school in the area, and they do the exact same thing as well. DD came home today (after her 2nd day) complaining that she too, wanted a prize, but that she hasn't earned a purple yet. It started up a great discussion between us about how important it is to use good behavior, and to not just do good things so that we can get a reward. Rewards and treats are fun, but good behavior is something we should model whether or not we get a treat for it. We also talked about how her teacher has lots of kids to take care of, and so things might be done a little differently in the classrom than at home. (though fwiw, I am not totally opposed to using rewards and consequences in relation to behavior)

I get that you're upset, and I think that your feelings are valid...but as long as your kids are in school, or anywhere, really, there are going to be things that you don't like or don't agree with. I think that the best thing that you can do here is to use this opportunity to discuss with your son that different places have different rules...and while the school's rules aren't necessarily the same ones that you'd have at home, there's a reason that they're in place.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

what private school are you at?


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I'll PM you.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm not a GD sort, but I saw this on the new posts.

I'm familiar with this card system, but have never seen it used with something above the green. I think adding the purple is kind of screwed up.


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## anne1140 (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
I think adding the purple is kind of screwed up.

Why?

I am a kindy teacher, and I use almost the same system, except I don't give out prizes for purple. In my class, students get on the purple circle for doing something extra kind, such as picking up something that they didn't mess up, helping someone who got hurt, or using kind words. An above and beyond kind of thing. They know that green is great, too, and I tell them that. I also have a running list of the students who have made it to purple, and I make sure everyone gets there at some point. (They don't know this, though.) All they get for it is a nice little note home sharing what kind thing they did that day.

I think it's a nice way to make sure everyone is recognized at some point. If I wrote nice notes home every day for those on green, that's all I'd be doing, because most students stay on green!


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anne1140* 
doing something extra kind, such as *picking up something that they didn't mess up, helping someone who got hurt, or using kind words.*

Those things you quoted are things that I expect my children to do WITHOUT getting any kind of "reward" or special notice. Those things aren't extra kind in my book - they are part of learning how to live a compassionate life.

I hate the idea that my child will do something that they feel deserved to get a purple (and may have except that the teacher can only give out one a day) and then will get discouraged because they worked so hard to earn it, but didn't get it only because it wasn't their day to get it.

To me, it also sets up a "I'm better than you" type attitude among the kids. I can see children saying "I earned a purple today and you didn't."

I'm really surprised to hear that this is a common occurance in kindergarten. I'm definitely going to ask my son's teacher if she does this when we meet next week.


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

Ds starts kindy next week. This week we met with the teacher and received a copy of the behavior policy. Instead of colors, his class will utilize the "Behavior Tree" with all apples starting at the top of the tree each day. As a child misbehaves, their apple is moved to a lower branch. The first misbehavior gets their name written on the chalkboard. The second misbehavior their apple is moved and they get a time out. Kids whose apples remain at the top of the tree all day get a sticker on their behavior chart. Once the chart if filled with stickers they can pick a prize from the prize box.

I disagree with this on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin. This is one reason I want to homeschool (dh isn't on board yet, though). I'm supposed to sign the behavior policy and return it to the school. I'm so opposed that I can't even bring myself to sign it...


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm not very GD (well, by some standards I guess I might be) but I also disagree with the whole "purple" concept for the reasons already stated. But....could someone please explain to me what is wrong with the basic system? I don't understand the fallacy...you behave well, you stay on green. If you do something inappropriate, then there is a consequence (but always with the opportunty to turn the day around by getting your color moved back later.) What's wrong with that? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious, but I don't know what. If this is not the place to ask this question I'm sorry. I would really like to understand, since we use a similar system in the classroom I work in, and it has worked very well, and I always figured I'd use something similar with ds as he got older (like a chart for chores, etc.). I would like to know what the potential problem is with it. (And sorry for totally derailing the thread)


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## mnj77 (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama1803* 
Instead of colors, his class will utilize the "Behavior Tree" with all apples starting at the top of the tree each day. As a child misbehaves, their apple is moved to a lower branch.

If a kid falls to the bottom, do they call him a "bad apple?" The symbolism is just too much!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

We have something similar and I've been uncomfortable with it. But I want to find out more before trying to change things. I understand that classroom management is much different than how our home runs. I think teachers need some kind of management tools because class sizes are just so large.

It's unfortunate but I think it can really be an opportunity for you to talk with your child about these issues. The fact is that there will be many times when our kids run into things that don't make a lot of sense or go against what we try so hard to instill in our kids. But it's a way to foster critical thinking and acceptance that in different situations and places, rules will be different and it's a good skill to learn to adjust and adapt.

I'm still very much working on this (my child is going into Kinder but did PreK at this school last year) but I think there is value in our children having these experiences.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Waiting2bemommy,
It is good you asked the question. It is hard to answer in a single post but I encourage you to start to think about these issues with an open mind and see where it takes you. My suggestion would be to start with reading Alfie Kohn. There are many articles on his website. Here's one excerpt

"I came to conclude that the problem is not just with his program but with the use of rewards and punishments per se, regardless of what they are called or how they are embellished. Even when children are "successfully" reinforced or consequenced into compliance, they will likely feel no commitment to what they are doing, no deep understanding of the act and its rationale, no sense of themselves as the kind of people who would want to act this way in the future. They have been led to concentrate on the consequences of their actions to themselves, and someone with this frame of reference bears little resemblance to the kind of person we dream of seeing each of our students become. "

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/discipline.htm In this article he talks about Assertive Discipline which is the basis of the red light system other posters described. It is very popular in education circles and standard in some school districts.

It suffers from a lot of problems. One, as the passage above explains - the long term goal should be to help students become people who do the right thing because they care about other people and want to do things that won't hurt others. Instead these systems say do this and get a prize, do that and you will be hurt. Also, there is a terrible competitive element to these systems. What we'd like to see in a classroom are kids who feel a sense of community and caring for their classmates and want to take care of each other. That's really different than taking care of each other because you want to earn the donut. These systems can also be very anxiety producing for kids who tend to already be very sensitive and well behaved because they feel bad when they are rewarded and other kid aren't. And, they feel confused when others are rewarded but their good behavior isn't recognized. All of this is adding levels of worry, competition, suffering and upset into a school classroom when it doesn't need to be there.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

This seems like a good system to me. I haven't seen a classroom yet where they get to earn their way back to green with their choices and I think that learning about choices and how they will affect you is important for young kids. I like all of it except the time-out part but that is just part of public school. They don't get so many chances around here with the system the schools tend to use, they miss recess time at yellow and go to the principal at red. I think you need to wait and give this system a little longer before you decide that he will never earn his way to purple or decide against this system, he is new at school and you are both adjusting still. You should mention to the teacher that he seemed very upset because he thought he had done what he needed to do to earn purple and you could ask her if there are some things he can do to earn purple because he is really set on earning that color. It may help to talk to him about what is extra special behavior at school. Part of being in free public school is adapting to motivational techniques designed to address the whole class and those tend to not be ones that Alfie Kohn followers probably detest. The children in that class are probably all used to systems that externally motivate them when it comes to behavior and this system is something that they can easily understand, it is unlikely that it will change for one child unless the teacher is unhappy with the system. If this is a battle you want to fight then I wish you luck, but no matter where you put your child for school there will be something about it that you really can't stand but that won't change and you either have to help your child cope or try to find a school that has something that you can stand a little more.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
This seems liek a good system to me. I haven't seen a classroom yet where they get to earn their way back to green with their choices and I think that learning about choices and how they will affect you is important for young kids.

I agree with this. DD's school (in the same area as the OP's) has this same system, and seeing it in person, I don't find it alarming at all.

The only color that can't be changed once it's earned is purple (the highest color), because to get purple, the kids have to be caught doing a random act of kindness when they think that the teacher isn't looking, and you can't take away random acts of kindness. Every other color can be changed, and I think it's a great way for kids to learn that even if they do one naughty thing, they can always grow and improve.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I don't like the color card thing in classrooms because it is shaming in my opinion to kids who misbehave. Act up and its up on the wall, even kids who didn't see your action and other people who may stop by the classroom will see that you have been naughty.

I have a sensitive kid so I'm certain this would beyond mortify him.

Thankfully his school doesn't do colors or stickers or apples or anything else. Amazingly (







) they have very few behavioral problems using plain old GD (redirection - for early childhood and talking it out with the kid involved).

Sorry you're in the situation, OP.


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## nancyw (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
IThe only color that can't be changed once it's earned is purple (the highest color), because to get purple, the kids have to be caught doing a random act of kindness when they think that the teacher isn't looking, and *you can't take away random acts of kindness.*

well, effectively you can....

those acts come from the heart, and the 'girft' or 'reward' the child receives is intrinsic.
'getting purple' for it actually takes away from this. even belittles it, to a degree.

and as soon as the kids figure out how to 'get purple' and that that brings some 'extra attention' from the teacher, then, yes, you will be taking the random out of ramdom acts at _some_ point along the way. just imo


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancyw* 
and as soon as the kids figure out how to 'get purple' and that that brings some 'extra attention' from the teacher, then, yes, you will be taking the random out of ramdom acts at _some_ point along the way. just imo









I disagree. How many of us grew up with similar discipline in schools and still turned out ok? I think that it is possible for kids to do good things for the right reasons *and* still be rewarded for them. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
I don't like the color card thing in classrooms because it is shaming in my opinion to kids who misbehave. Act up and its up on the wall, even kids who didn't see your action and other people who may stop by the classroom will see that you have been naughty.









:

Our school uses a reward system, and while I'm not a big fan of rewards, I am at least OK with their system. Kids get reward slips for being kind, safe and respectful. At the end of the week, they'll draw names from the bucket of reward slips, and if your name is drawn, you can choose a prize. BUT not everyone's slip gets drawn and so if you didn't get a reward slip that week, no one knows. (And I suspect the teachers make sure all kids get one.)

Is it perfect? No. I'd prefer to not have the rewards. But since this system doesn't publicly announce who's been "bad", it doesn't shame kids.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I got a chance to talk to the school prinicipal this weekend at an open house and can I just say I love her!! She completely understood my concern, told me that yes the classes use some sort of behavioral chart, but that if we wanted it to be private or something else, then to just let the teacher know. She said that the teachers will adapt to whatever the parents want or don't want for their kids.

For those that have concerns with this or how it is done, I highly recommend you work with the teacher to come up with something that is acceptable for your child (and you!).


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## DoingDoing:Julie (May 8, 2008)

What a tricky situation!
Children ultimately get their life lessons from their parents (no pressure MOMS)I know this because I remember the crap and poo poo that goes on in public, i'm only 20 so I remember it like it was yeterday! BUT I really feel like who I am today is like . . . only .1% because of public school, and the rest is the life my parents gave me and who I am by nature.
I SAY reinforce what you and your child know to be true! I remember how hard it was to be in public school in elementry and in middle and in high school. SOOOO stressful, so frustrating. but there are so many ups too! I'm not saying public is worth it. BUT if your home is a good, stress free, no-pressure, loving home, then your kids wont feel the stress of public school as much, and ultimately forget about it!


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

wow that seems strange and I don't like the idea at all. I can't even quite voice what i find so displeasing about it. I am glad my DD's school uses nothing like this. If a child misbehaves they use GD and talk to the child and continue on.

Much better in my opinion.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thursday Girl* 
wow that seems strange and I don't like the idea at all. I can't even quite voice what i find so displeasing about it. I am glad my DD's school uses nothing like this. If a child misbehaves they use GD and talk to the child and continue on.

Much better in my opinion.

What makes you think that teachers aren't discussing behavior with the children just because they use a color chart? If anyone at DD's school moves down a color, then the teacher sits them down and talks to them about it. Conversely, when the children are moved up a color, the teacher tells them why/offers them praise.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Wow! I can tell that a lot of folks have never spent the whole day in a classroom lately. It is not just your child from the good home that we are talking about. It is for everyone's child. The one's who need a little extra push to do the right thing. The behavior in schools runs the gamut, from perfect to not so much. There is a real push these days to have a school-wide behavior plan. Trust me I sat through the 2 hr meeting!


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Dd's initial first grade teacher used a green/yellow/red system - I think it is more common in the States, where she trained. She later got another job, and the system stayed on the wall for a bit with the new teacher, then was abandoned. We were happy about that!

Among (many) other things, I really disliked how quickly the class divvied up into those who were frequently on yellow/red and those who weren't. Just a couple of weeks into class, if dd mentioned someone going onto yellow or red, I already knew which of a handful of wiggly boys it was going to be.

It became very easy for the 'green' kids to be judgmental of the others. Dd and I had to discuss how, for example, she gets bored too during lengthy lessons on the carpet (she had told me of falling asleep during one), but just responds differently than the little boy who starts fidgeting and acting up, netting him a 'yellow.'

Later in the year, freed of the color system, dd and the wiggly boy became good friends. The class also seemed to have fewer, not more discipline issues, once the system was gone, perhaps because things were just dealt with seamlessly as they came up, rather than with a big hullaballoo about who was where on the chart.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
Among (many) other things, I really disliked how quickly the class divvied up into those who were frequently on yellow/red and those who weren't. Just a couple of weeks into class, if dd mentioned someone going onto yellow or red, I already knew which of a handful of wiggly boys it was going to be.

Here's what I don't understand. Children know who acts up or not. We didn't use color-type systems when I was growing up, but I still knew who the children who got into trouble were. It was obvious from their behavior - and the fact that our teachers had to use valuable class time to talk to them repeatedly. So I don't buy the idea that using these systems is what "teaches" children to differentiate.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Wow! I can tell that a lot of folks have never spent the whole day in a classroom lately. It is not just your child from the good home that we are talking about. It is for everyone's child. The one's who need a little extra push to do the right thing.

There are schools that don't use these behavior modification systems. They focus on cooperation, problem solving, classroom meetings, and teaching kids to work together as a group. Color charts and behavior modification aren't the only, or the best, way to classroom discipline.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Wow! I can tell that a lot of folks have never spent the whole day in a classroom lately. It is not just your child from the good home that we are talking about. It is for everyone's child. The one's who need a little extra push to do the right thing. The behavior in schools runs the gamut, from perfect to not so much. There is a real push these days to have a school-wide behavior plan. Trust me I sat through the 2 hr meeting!

I have. In fact, the preschool was a co-op so I was in the classroom once a month, plus I helped out on field trips. They never used a color system and managed the kids just fine. And there were 18 in my son's preschool class.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Here's what I don't understand. Children know who acts up or not. We didn't use color-type systems when I was growing up, but I still knew who the children who got into trouble were. It was obvious from their behavior - and the fact that our teachers had to use valuable class time to talk to them repeatedly. So I don't buy the idea that using these systems is what "teaches" children to differentiate.

Yes, children can and do 'label' other children on their own, but I'm not in favour of a classroom system that makes it even more easy to do. I know in our case, kids who were perpetually on 'yellow' or 'red' with the first teacher of the year seemed to blend in with the rest of the class much better once the classroom discipline focus shifted to things like re-direction instead.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
There are schools that don't use these behavior modification systems. They focus on cooperation, problem solving, classroom meetings, and teaching kids to work together as a group. Color charts and behavior modification aren't the only, or the best, way to classroom discipline.


Very true, in fact I have found the behaviour mod stuff to be the exception rather than the rule in the system here, with no ill effects.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Wow! I can tell that a lot of folks have never spent the whole day in a classroom lately. It is not just your child from the good home that we are talking about. It is for everyone's child. The one's who need a little extra push to do the right thing. The behavior in schools runs the gamut, from perfect to not so much. There is a real push these days to have a school-wide behavior plan. Trust me I sat through the 2 hr meeting!

He really isn't the only kid in the class?








Seriously, I realize that, and I'm not worried about my child's behavior. He's been on green everyday and has received the purple 3 times. I don't like how it puts focus on the kids with bad behavior, i don't like it fostering judgement and competition, i don't like teaching kids that you get a prize if you behave well. I don't like hearing my son giving me the daily report on everyone's behavior and him asking me why his friend an't behave and stay on green like everybody else, and i don't like him telling me that it is upsetting to him when someone gets a yellow and how he is worried that someone will get red, and how he worries that he will get an orange, etc, etc. He is a sensitive kid and it is stressing him out. He is a good kid, but I don't like how this has become his main focus.
I am accepting it, i know she has a lot of kids to deal with and a lot of stuff to teach and cooperative kids is important to get that done. I still don't like it. I will use it as a teaching tool as well.
I did work in my son's preschool which was a co-op and we had a couple of kids that were a handful but the situations were dealt without drawing attention to the child. My son would tell me that the child was having a tough day but now when he comes home and tells me about the one kid who always gets yellow it is as if he is tattling on him.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
Yes, children can and do 'label' other children on their own, but I'm not in favour of a classroom system that makes it even more easy to do. I know in our case, kids who were perpetually on 'yellow' or 'red' with the first teacher of the year seemed to blend in with the rest of the class much better once the classroom discipline focus shifted to things like re-direction instead.

Very true, in fact I have found the behaviour mod stuff to be the exception rather than the rule in the system here, with no ill effects.


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## sandy'smama (Oct 16, 2005)

how absolutely awful system to use with young children!!!!!
How degrading, divisive and one-size-fits-all attitude!
I would NOT have my child taught behaviour in this way. There is a long list of what I do not like about this system (must say here purely from your description as thankfully I have never seen anything like this in use) but what I do not like the most is subjectiveness of the teacher's view (my ds's "purple" very best is very different from my dd's), the taking away of the real sense of achievement (doing something because it feels right instead of earning points - do not think my DS would even understand how it worked) and the shaming and crushing of the natural tendency of children to behave well (however much one is trying it might not be good enough and after a while we stop caring or even rebel).
It enforces competitiveness instead co-operation and while I can see it reinforcing the need to please I cannot see how it would help those misbehaving in the long run


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## nancyw (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
So I don't buy the idea that using these systems is what "teaches" children to differentiate.

no, neither do I. imo--it is the culture, the atmosphere, etc., to begin with, and these systems are just some of the concrete manifestations of that, and therefore more visible.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Wow! I can tell that a lot of folks have never spent the whole day in a classroom lately. It is not just your child from the good home that we are talking about. It is for everyone's child. The one's who need a little extra push to do the right thing. The behavior in schools runs the gamut, from perfect to not so much. There is a real push these days to have a school-wide behavior plan. Trust me I sat through the 2 hr meeting!

Actually I sat through quite a few classes, all day long, at my dd's school since I was a teacher's aide.


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

I didn't read all the posts, but I just want to say that would SO not be cool with me. I would have my kid out of that school, fast (I know you said that's not an option, though)

The intrinsic motivation is huge, but the thing that would really get me is the reward at the end. Donuts! No no, that would not fly with me in any way.

I would hate to see my kid trying to be "good" so that she can get a donut!


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sandy'smama* 







how absolutely awful system to use with young children!!!!!
How degrading, divisive and one-size-fits-all attitude!
I would NOT have my child taught behaviour in this way. There is a long list of what I do not like about this system (must say here purely from your description as thankfully I have never seen anything like this in use) but what I do not like the most is subjectiveness of the teacher's view (my ds's "purple" very best







: different from my dd's), the taking away of the real sense of achievement (doing something because it feels right instead of earning points - do not think my DS would even understand how it worked) and the shaming and crushing of the natural tendency of children to behave well (however much one is trying it might not be good enough and after a while we stop caring or even rebel).
It enforces competitiveness instead co-operation and while I can see it reinforcing the need to please I cannot see how it would help those misbehaving in the long run

















:


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Enudely* 
I didn't read all the posts, but I just want to say that would SO not be cool with me. I would have my kid out of that school, fast (I know you said that's not an option, though)

The intrinsic motivation is huge, but the thing that would really get me is the reward at the end. Donuts! No no, that would not fly with me in any way.

I would hate to see my kid trying to be "good" so that she can get a donut!

Oh no, no, no. They don't get a donut







I was saying "donut" as in a big zero for staying on green. which i think can be a major achievement for kids this age.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
What makes you think that teachers aren't discussing behavior with the children just because they use a color chart? If anyone at DD's school moves down a color, then the teacher sits them down and talks to them about it. Conversely, when the children are moved up a color, the teacher tells them why/offers them praise.

Exactly. There is a finesse with how these systems are used. The way the teacher uses them is much in part what impacts the kids negatively or positively.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Here's what I don't understand. Children know who acts up or not. We didn't use color-type systems when I was growing up, but I still knew who the children who got into trouble were. It was obvious from their behavior - and the fact that our teachers had to use valuable class time to talk to them repeatedly. So I don't buy the idea that using these systems is what "teaches" children to differentiate.

I think it can sometimes add to a culture that differentiates kids based on behavior. I don't think it has to, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 
I have. In fact, the preschool was a co-op so I was in the classroom once a month, plus I helped out on field trips. They never used a color system and managed the kids just fine. And there were 18 in my son's preschool class.

Preschool is very different from public primary education. One teacher for 25 to 30 kids is a totally different story than a 5:1 ratio or better.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancyw* 
no, neither do I. imo--it is the culture, the atmosphere, etc., to begin with, and these systems are just some of the concrete manifestations of that, and therefore more visible.

Yes, there is so much that goes into creating a school culture. I'm actively working on these issues in our school. My first reaction to the behavior modification stuff was horror, but now I see it's value and I'd like to focus on refining the way they work rather than rid them altogether.

Intrinsic motivitation is important but I don't think it's realistic to expect that teachers can work without external motivators at all. Like a pp said, there are a lot of kids in the classroom, some of whom have issues that make the use of these tools necessary.

I think it's a tough one but if you get involved in your classroom and school, I think things can be fluid and flexible and we can all learn from it.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Preschool is very different from public primary education. One teacher for 25 to 30 kids is a totally different story than a 5:1 ratio or better.

Our kindergarten is actually very similar to the preschool. There are 18 kids in my sons K class and there were 18 in his preschool class. The particular teacher he has supposedly always has parent helpers so there would be 2 adults for 18 kids.

Plus, the timing is the same as well - both were 2.5 hours long.


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