# Daughters won't listen and won't stop fighting



## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi all, I am tired and looking for some advice. Some back ground, my wife and I have 3 kids. A 5 month DS, 4 yr DD, and 5 yr DD. We have read a lot of books and blogs and have really settled on Positive Parenting as our technique. 

The girls are close together but they are at an age where there age is a problem. The older one is growing into bigger kid things like reading and writing while the younger one tries to keep up she is more interested in good old rambunctious play time. The two girls fight all the time since they never want to play the same thing as the other. The best we have come up with is keeping them separated but this isn't ideal as they want to play together. Also, neither of them seem to know how to listen and stay quite, as their baby brother is usually sleeping. 

It has been at least 3 months that we have been going through the same routine every night. I get home around 4:30 pm and then all heck breaks loose. I stay very calm and every time they either fight, are loud, or don't listen, we make them stand in a corner and they stay there until they can tell us what they did wrong. They also loose a privilege either for that night or for the next day. 

As I said this has been going on the same for 3 months. Both girls end up crying them selves to sleep as they end up loosing all the privileges they love. We have made many modifications to this to try to get it to sink in but they continue to act like they don't understand the rules.

We really need some suggestions on what to do now. We try not to spank, especially in anger, but are not completely against it. We like to keep them making the decisions, we just need help guiding them to wake up and realize the correct choices. We are sad because bedtime is the only real one on one time we get and it usually leads to really good talks but they end up in trouble every night so we have been missing out on that special time. Please offer some advice. Thanks


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## Mazamet (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm not sure how you would approach the siblings being at different stages issue. It seems to me that the routine that you have been engaged in for three months is not working. It is causing a lot of grief for your daughters as they are crying themselves to sleep. That feels sad to me. Is it possible not to punish them with taking away privileges? Also, at their age, taking away privileges for the next day is too long of a time period. I;m pretty sure that they cannot process this yet. So, when they are not allowed something the next day, they are at a loss as to why it is that they are denied something. I would also think that taking away privileges only creates distance between you and your daughters which in turn results in resentment and not listening.

I would suggest that listening at this age is perhaps difficult for them. My DS7 still has difficulty following directions/listening and we are realizing that it is a skill that he is still working on. And we as parents are working on gently guiding him instead of issuing orders. Perhaps there is a possibility to engage in activities that both daughters like when you come home. Is it possible to go for a walk? Is it possible to read to them, or play games with their stuffies with them. Perhaps drawing activities? Can you make time for them and do these activities with them and draw them back in with your attention and love?


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Could you fill me in on what strategies the Positive Parenting model suggests so I understand what you are trying to do? It doesn't sound like a positive method as most positive parenting strategies don't suggest punishment and removal of privileges, but actually the opposite of that.

I would agree with pp that it isn't working and you need a different approach. But I want to more fully understand--what behaviors are you trying to increase?

Have you read Laura Markham?

How were each of you raised? With punishment and spanking or with guidance/love/natural consequences?


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## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

Thanks for your replies. I realize we have strayed away from the Positive Parenting model, that is one reason I am getting on here. I am needing some guidance so I can better my parenting. We are working on teaching them to share and be a positive influence to their friends especially my daughter in kindergarten so she isn't influenced by other kids and does the right thing. Surprisingly she does this very well at school but chucks it all out the window at home.

We do handle each instance with love and respect and always try to teach why it is wrong or what they need to do different. We also are pretty good about giving choices (both of which are good). They both seemed to be doing really well a few months ago. It just seems that something has happened to bring this on. I would think the new baby but really it has gone great as both girls love their brother and are always playing with him and wanting to hold him and kissing him. Plus it has brought a lot of out of town family that they get to see and play with.

We were both raised pretty badly. Not abuse bad but we both know this is why we struggle so much. I basically raised myself as I was a latchkey kid since 10 and before that I spent most my time in after school programs or at neighbors houses. My wife's mom stayed home but she was a yeller and very strict.

So what is a natural consequence. Say it is close to bedtime and they are playing and then start to play very loudly. How do you let a natural consequence come to that. This is when we usually intervene and say something like "you can continue to play quietly for 10 minutes before bed or you can be loud and go to bed now and play with these toys tomorrow".


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## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

Mazamet said:


> I'm not sure how you would approach the siblings being at different stages issue. It seems to me that the routine that you have been engaged in for three months is not working. It is causing a lot of grief for your daughters as they are crying themselves to sleep. That feels sad to me. Is it possible not to punish them with taking away privileges? Also, at their age, taking away privileges for the next day is too long of a time period. I;m pretty sure that they cannot process this yet. So, when they are not allowed something the next day, they are at a loss as to why it is that they are denied something. I would also think that taking away privileges only creates distance between you and your daughters which in turn results in resentment and not listening.
> 
> I would suggest that listening at this age is perhaps difficult for them. My DS7 still has difficulty following directions/listening and we are realizing that it is a skill that he is still working on. And we as parents are working on gently guiding him instead of issuing orders. Perhaps there is a possibility to engage in activities that both daughters like when you come home. Is it possible to go for a walk? Is it possible to read to them, or play games with their stuffies with them. Perhaps drawing activities? Can you make time for them and do these activities with them and draw them back in with your attention and love?


I do usually spend the time I get home until bed time doing activities with them. The problem is that I am only one person and they rarely want to do the same activity. So we take turns with the activity. This is when they usually start fighting or misbehaving at which time I talk to them about how to behave and then give them a choice about behaving and playing or misbehaving and ending the activity.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks for clarifying some of that.

My view on behavior is that it usually serves a function. Children are either obtaining something through negative behavior or getting to avoid something. Sometimes both. In the case of quibbling and arguing, it is usually successful in getting parent's attention pretty successfully. Sometimes two kids just don't get along too. Sometimes they are too different...or too much the same so they become competetive. 

A new baby is a HUGE adjustment, even if they love the baby. It's an adjustment for the parents who may be short on sleep, patience and tenacity. That in itself could explain it. They are probably tired of hearing 'the baby is sleeping.' They are still very young themselves, and at least one of them is probably adjusting to kindergarten. Which is another HUGE adjustment.

Kids also are still going through stages, and often regress just naturally. Sort of a two steps forward, one step back principle. And in particular when there is a new baby. 

I think one of the many things you could do is to hunker down, reduce demands, and strengthen relationships. Let them know you understand things are hard/different/challenging. That they are going through a lot, that the whole family is going through a lot. Let them know you're committed to supporting them at working through the challenges they've got going. Make sure any expectations for chores or other family contributions are reasonable.

I would stop punishing. Focus instead on attending to, and acknowledging the good things they are doing. Notice and praise quiet voices, Notice and praise when they are getting along. Teach replacement skills: how to share, how to take turns, how to cope when the family is playing something you don't prefer. Read books about feelings. Talk about your own. Model handling frustration calmly. Spend 1:1 time with each of them once a day if possible, or at least once a week. Encourage their different interests but also try to find one thing they like to do together---a game of skill--ping pong, pool, Carrom's, karate, horseback riding.....???

Your consquences should always teach something. Standing in a corner doesn't teach a skill.

Natural consequences are things that follow naturally--you spill something, you clean it up. You're too noisy, you lose "talking privileges" for 5 or 10 minutes (not a toy). You're consistently not following rules after dinner, you perhaps go to bed early since you must be tired and your ears aren't listening. "Let's try again tomorrow." 

Keep yourselves positive and not grouchy/whiny about their negative choices. A positive attitude is a huge influence--parents staying positive despite the frustration with the kids. Instead of yelling, nagging, etc., you are just matter of factly stating things-- "oops you guys are arguing over this game, time to put it away, you can try again tomorrow." Said pleasantly and matter of factly. 

I feel pretty sure you can turn this thing around with 1)empathy for their experience; 2) time spent being close; 3) letting go of all your negativity about their behavior; 4) teaching replacement skills


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

By the way, there are some fabulous books on being a positive parent when you didn't have one. Let me know if you'd like a suggestion.


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## MDoc (Nov 23, 2011)

Lauren has some great points. Also, I second the suggestion of Dr Laura Markham. Go to her website and subscribe to her e-mails. They will give you daily reminders of how you can improve your relationships in your family.

Really, your girls are not being bad, they are just being kids. They are probably really missing your attention since there is a new baby. Just try to be loving and understanding. Obviously you love and care for them a lot. You are, after all, trying to find the best way to make their lives better. Try to remind yourself of that before you punish them. Try to connect with them and help them instead of punishing. That is how you can work toward better behavior instead of just punishing undesired behavior. (Easier said than done but a worthy goal).


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## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

Thank you both for your encouraging words. It sounds like we are doing a pretty decent job. It is easy to only focus on the worst stuff when your venting to someone. Not to make excuses but it is really hard for me to spend time with my girls. Especially the baby since my girls are starving for my affection as soon as I get home. I had made a bad habit of being to lenient on the rules so I could spend more time with them and not have to end a game early or put them to bed early. I leave in the morning before anyone is awake and I get home at 5. Bedtime is a 7 for all three kids so I have only 2 hours to eat dinner, help with homework, spend time with all three kids, help pick up the house, give baths, and put them to bed. I can't seem to fit all this in 2 hours. Not to mention I haven't barely seen my wife yet. I am going to college right now as well so after I put the kids to sleep I take about an hour to help clean and prepare myself for the next day. Then I go to my desk and do homework until midnight. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can better spend my time?

I have a question about your example of talking privileges. Say you go through that scenario and they end up losing their "talking privileges". How in the world do you enforce that? This is where we lose our way and methods. One of our daughters is a talker and will talk and talk. She likes to make sure everything is happening the way she wants it to when she wants it to. So say she loses her talking privilege and then wont stop talking. What do you do then? 

I will definitely check out that Dr Laura Markham. Thanks


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow it really does sound like you have a lot on your plates! If you took any one of these things you have described, on it's own, it would be a lot. I would say you're all under a lot of stress. New baby, kindergarten, college. Whew!!! You are probably desperate to have just one thing go right! And your older kids seem like they should 'know better,' and just do the right thing. I totally get it. Our older ones were 9 and 6 when we had a baby, and we often got pretty frustrated with them in that first year or so. 

A couple of things popped out. I totally understand not always wwanting to spend time with kids. I personally am an introvert and after working all day, I often want to just be alone and read! It's hard to push myself to hang out with the kids. Accept yourself on this matter and try to find mutually enjoyable things, or at least things you can tolerate.  In our house 7:00 would have been an early bedtime. I always gravitated to my kid's natural rhythm and for all three of them that seemed to be 8:30 or 9 (until the teen years). Getting up at 6:30 that is still roughly 10 hours of sleep. I'm not sure what time your girls get up, but think about adjusting bedtime to give yourself more to work with. It also sounds like bedtime is all your job. Has your partner been with them all day/afternoon and is fried? Is there a way you two can divide and make it more pleasurable? We also were never insistent on a bath each and every night. That takes a lot of time too. How independent are they with getting clean? Would one of them wish to take a shower? Just trying to think of ways to feel less regimented about it all, and have more time for relaxed play or reading together. In terms of seeing your wife, if you did, say, give up baths one of the nights, and all play Candyland together, would that feel like togetherness for you all?

I have to laugh about the talking privileges thing. That is actually something my husband came up with and and I used to think he was crazy. But for us it really worked. Say you have kids arguing in teh car. The family is 'trapped' with the arguing and can't walk away from it. You would state that talking privileges have been removed and when they are quiet for 2 (3, 4?) minutes they can have them back. In the beginning, our kids tested it constantly. If they do not listen, the loss of privilege is extended. Sometimes we had to pull the car over and establish that we meant it (works best when traveling to somewhere they WANT to go!) Talk about it in terms of how it is inconveniencing the family, not how the arguing is naughty or disobeying. It is affecting other people. You will allow talking when the talking is respectful and is helping the family feel good about being together. Some of this comes from the Love and Logic approach (you can check that website as well). Focus on the pro-social behaviors you want to teach, NOT on the thing you don't want them doing.

I was also struck by your comment about being lenient so that you could have a good time. Parents often get confused (and I used to as well) about being lenient vs. being what feels like "mean" when you are setting limits. You can set limits in a very loving and empathic tone! You don't have to choose between limits and fun, or limits and being 'nice.' In fact setting limits can be done in a fun and loving manner that stresses responsibility and family expectations. Those of us raised in strict or abusive or substance abusing families often get this mixed up. Nice seems to equal no limits. Mean seems to equal limits. That is because our parents struggled with the same things. They couldn't see how limits were a loving act, that they help a child learn self-regulation, that they help maintain family harmony. So we turned it into black and white in our heads. It's kind of a form of perfectionism and doesn't allow for the messiness of kid's development and how we can just be curious and empathic about where they are coming from or what they are learning at any particular juncture. 

Also, it is not all about US! We are not good parents if they behave and bad parents if they don't! We are parents and we are here to provide love and guidance and teach them as many skills as they will let us to have a good life when they move on from us! They also may inadvertently be teaching us things we really NEED to learn--time management, patience, empathy, structure. How to be firm and loving at the very same time. They are a gift if we let them be!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

At 4:30 p.m. I'd take them to the park. Have them run around and play separately and play with you together some, too. Or enroll them in separate classes this time of day. Maybe soccer for one and martial arts for the other or something like that. These two have too much time together and not enough chance to bloom as individuals.

A good outlet for everyone is physical play and can lead to calmer family times, too.


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## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

philomom said:


> At 4:30 p.m. I'd take them to the park. Have them run around and play separately and play with you together some, too. Or enroll them in separate classes this time of day. Maybe soccer for one and martial arts for the other or something like that. These two have too much time together and not enough chance to bloom as individuals.
> 
> A good outlet for everyone is physical play and can lead to calmer family times, too.


This is what we do when we can but the problem here is our schedule. When I get home at 4:30 we still have to do homework, eat dinner, read for 20 minutes, clean up our messes, and get ready for the next day before going to bed at 6:30. That is where the stress is coming in because it is all work for me and my kids as soon as I get home. My only time with them is laying with them in bed for 10-15 minutes and talking about our days but since there actions up to bed have not been kind or respectful I have been forced to limit my time with them which is probably creating a cycle since the bad behavior is from lost connection and the lost connection is because of the bad behavior. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## bbishopca (Dec 17, 2015)

It is a lot for our family. We tend to barely make it through each day without losing our minds especially for me since I lose a lot of sleep to homework. I am also kind of only parent to the girls when I am home since they haven’t seen me all day and my wife usually is busy with the baby at this time.

We have done the same thing with natural bedtimes. We have always let the kid’s natural patterns regulate that. 6:30 is way early but it really is their natural bedtime. If we miss it by even a few minutes, they usually end up having complete meltdowns at 6:45 as well as have terrible days the next day. It is funny because when they were 2-3 years old we told other parents how lucky they were having their kids sleep 12 hours a night. Our girls just were not sleepers at that age. But now we aim to have them in bed at 6 so we can lay and decompress with them and still have them asleep by 6:30. They will sleep 12 hours too and have great attitudes all the next day. Bedtime is mainly my job because the girls are craving my attention at that point in the day of me being gone all day. Plus my wife gets the baby ready for bed at the same time. We do switch it up 1-2 nights a week but I do mostly run the house when I am home, at least when it comes to the girls. They do not bathe every night and in fact usually go to long without one since we will skip it to get more time out of the evening. 

My wife and I were just talking about this this morning as well. We both have a hard time with this style because we aren’t quick enough to think of natural consequences and the girls are not very enticed by going places or doing certain things. We could cancel Christmas for example and they probably would be upset in the moment but not give it a second thought the next day. An example just happened like that last night. After I put the girls to bed I left. Five minutes later I heard them out of bed playing. I went back in the room and said that beds were for girls that were trying to sleep so I guess they didn’t want theirs. I pulled there mattresses into the hallway and laid a blanket on the floor for them to sleep. It worked great in the moment as my younger daughter had a meltdown and I was able to comfort her and talk to her about why the consequence she chooses. However, in the morning neither of them wants their bed back and now they want to sleep on the floor.

What I really meant about the lenient thing was that I will let them slide on a rule so that we can keep doing what we are doing. That is my main problem since I am not being consistent. This is why my wife thinks they want me to put them to bed every night because they will be able to have more fun by breaking rules than with their mom. I am consistent in the way I handle things when I do it but I just don’t make it a thing every time. Which to me makes sense since different times require different rules. Like my wife tries hard to make them stop yelling, the fun kind, even when they are outside playing. I don’t really agree since outside playing is the exact time for them to get those screams and excitement out. Different expectation for the same behavior. They just need to learn the proper time that each rule applies. 

Thank you as just talking about this stuff to someone has really helped me reflect and get back into the parenting zone. This must be what therapy is like.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I'm glad that you're getting some help here and that just talking about it is helping! I'll give you my ideas on some of these issues, in some places linking to some of my articles that have more about a topic.



> The older one is growing into bigger kid things like reading and writing while the younger one tries to keep up she is more interested in good old rambunctious play time. The two girls fight all the time since they never want to play the same thing as the other. The best we have come up with is keeping them separated but this isn't ideal as they want to play together.


Maybe they could take turns choosing the activity: Monday until dinner it's 5yo's choice, after dinner is 4yo's choice; Tuesday is the other way around--or just take turns every time they're ready to do something different. This is a strategy my best friend and I took up when we were around 6 and often wasting our playtime arguing about what to do; one person picks, and the other just goes along with it even if she's not thrilled, knowing next time will be her choice.



> Also, neither of them seem to know how to listen and stay quite, as their baby brother is usually sleeping.


Does noise disturb the baby? My 19-month-old can sleep through the phone ringing, brief shouting even if it's in the same room, etc. Her brother was the same until he was 3-4 years old. I know babies have different levels of startle-ability. I'm just saying, don't assume it's going to be a problem if you're not seeing it's a problem for the baby that you have.

If baby does need quiet, try to keep the girls as far from him as possible, at least after they have been too noisy once. Do you live in a place where they can play outdoors without adults? If so, say, "That's too loud. You need to go outside." My mom used to send us to run around the house 5 times, after which we could come back in if we wanted--it's a good way to burn off some steam!

Make sure that when you ask for quiet, you are using a quiet voice yourself. Use a physical signal to get their attention (like shoulder touch) and then speak quietly. If they start arguing with you, keep your voice quiet but keep talking so that they have to be quiet to hear you. Maybe even implement a "quiet sign": in Girl Scouts, we used 3 fingers together held up in the air, often with a finger of your other hand on your lips for reinforcement; when you see the quiet sign, you shut up and do it too until everyone is quiet and then you can hear instructions.



> I get home around 4:30 pm and then all heck breaks loose.


What is happening before that? How long are they home with your wife before you get home, and how does she manage them when you're not there?



> We are sad because bedtime is the only real one on one time we get and it usually leads to really good talks but they end up in trouble every night so we have been missing out on that special time.


Then taking away that time is not an effective punishment. The only reason to reduce bedtime talks is if their behavior has used up time so that they're going to bed late--and even then, spending five minutes with them to settle their minds may pay off.

I've sometimes had nights with my son when his behavior leading up to bedtime has me so angry and worn-out that *I* am not ready to give him that time. Often I have been hostile about that, which only makes him more clingy. It's better when I tell him I'm going to "take a time-out" for *myself* while he lies quietly in bed, and then I'll come in. When he was little and very resistant to being alone, he would not accept this and would follow me around so that I had no peace--but I finally convinced him to lie down "while I go to the bathroom" and then I'd spend, oh, a full 3 minutes in there doing things that would help me feel less irritated, like drinking some water, taking out my contacts (often feeling scratchy by evening), and washing my face; I wouldn't flush the toilet until I was about to come out. I still do this when we're too pressed for time for me to take a longer break. It's better than nothing, for settling my own spirit while giving him a moment to regroup, too.



> Say it is close to bedtime and they are playing and then start to play very loudly. How do you let a natural consequence come to that. This is when we usually intervene and say something like "you can continue to play quietly for 10 minutes before bed or you can be loud and go to bed now and play with these toys tomorrow".


Don't offer a choice unless both options are acceptable. The way this is phrased sounds like it's okay to be loud, and also sounds like playing quietly might lead to NOT getting to use these toys tomorrow.

I usually prefer an approach of redirecting the behavior right away and then possibly allowing a second chance. In this case, I'd say, "That game is getting too noisy. It's almost time for bed, so let's put all the trains to bed so they'll be ready to play again tomorrow." If the response is, "No, we'll play it quietly!" say, in a quiet voice, "Okay, you can have a second chance to play quietly, for just ten more minutes." If they are noisy again before the time's up, stop them right away and move on with bedtime; no more chances tonight.



> I have only 2 hours to eat dinner, help with homework, spend time with all three kids, help pick up the house, give baths, and put them to bed. I can't seem to fit all this in 2 hours. Not to mention I haven't barely seen my wife yet. I am going to college right now as well so after I put the kids to sleep I take about an hour to help clean and prepare myself for the next day. Then I go to my desk and do homework until midnight.


I feel your pain! I have a full-time job and several volunteer things going, and I'm pressed for time every day and often get very little sleep. When my son was 2-5 years old, he and I did a long commute by public transit every day, which was time together and kind of fun but also a lot of stress and too little time at home.

The best I can suggest is to make a list of what each person is supposed to be/trying to get done during those 2 hours. See if any of the things might best be moved to another time of day. Then look at the lists next to each other and see which activities go together: Two or more people do them together, one activity leads naturally to another, a child's activity works nicely in parallel to a parent's, etc. Talk with your wife about what you can "tune up" and try to agree on a family routine of doing the things in a basic order, not a minute-by-minute schedule. (Aside from "hard stops" like the time the kids need to be in bed to avoid meltdown, try to be flexible about how long things take.) You might make some things easier by scheduling a day of the week when you focus on them, like maybe you clean up just one room each day with the girls, saving any other crucial cleaning for after their bedtime. Then tell the girls about the routine. Make a list (words and pictures) of what they are going to do each evening. Some kids really thrive on the sense of responsibility and calming order that goes with a list. (I did. My son doesn't so much, but it still helps to have expectations in writing.) Now follow your routines, give your kids and wife plenty of praise for doing their parts, and give yourself a break after you have "only" done what you're supposed to do that day.

It sounds like you could use a "connecting moment" with your wife and a "centering moment" for yourself soon after you get home. It is very hard to come home from a long day at work and feel like you have to go non-stop for another several hours. It's good for the kids to see their parents making it a priority to focus on each other, even if only for a 10-second hug. (Seriously, count 10 full seconds, breathing deeply--it's longer than it sounds!) It's important for you to have whatever you need most to be comfortable while you get through the evening, so think about what that is and insist on just a moment to take care of yourself as soon as you walk in. Maybe the girls could even prepare to bring you your slippers or whatever. 

One thing that helped me a lot was setting aside the expectation that I would "play with" my child nightly. Instead I included him in what I was doing: "Let's take this laundry out of the dryer! Okay, now you hand me the things and I'll fold them." We were spending time together, it was fun for him, he loved learning about How We Do Things, and I was Getting Things Done instead of feeling like I was wasting time pushing toy trains or whatever. In my most overwhelmed stage, the year my son was 4 and I was having almost daily migraines, I sometimes would tell him that instead of reading stories in bed I would tell him stories while he camped in his sleeping bag on the kitchen floor while I washed the dishes. He actually has fond memories of this! He would fall asleep there, and I'd leave him until I was ready for bed and then fireman-carry him to his bed.



> After I put the girls to bed I left. Five minutes later I heard them out of bed playing. I went back in the room and said that beds were for girls that were trying to sleep so I guess they didn't want theirs. I pulled there mattresses into the hallway and laid a blanket on the floor for them to sleep. It worked great in the moment as my younger daughter had a meltdown and I was able to comfort her and talk to her about why the consequence she chooses. However, in the morning neither of them wants their bed back and now they want to sleep on the floor.


Eesh. This is too extreme a consequence. Your daughter's meltdown doesn't mean it "worked great"--I think she was scared about Daddy suddenly taking her bedroom apart; that wasn't a "consequence she chose" as she didn't know you were going to do it. And now you have to decide whether or not to let them continue sleeping on the floor. Since you "laid a blanket on the floor for them to sleep" obviously you *were* planning for them to sleep eventually, which undermines the message you were trying to send with the consequence.

Okay, so what's better? Well, my brother and I shared a room when we were little, and when we got too noisy my parents would give ONE warning: "You're being too loud and silly. This needs to stop, or we'll have to separate you." If we kept it up, one of us would be taken out of our room for the rest of the night. It wasn't fun for either of us, as one was left alone in our room acutely feeling the lack of companionship, while the other had to sleep on the couch or whatever slightly awkward, uncomfortable place the parent decided. After that we would keep our night playing/conversation very quiet for weeks at a stretch.

From the point where you are now, you could talk about how you took their mattresses away because they were playing instead of sleeping. Were they doing that because they had mattresses? Ask this as a serious question whose answer is not clear to you. It's okay if they say, "No! You were being very silly!" Okay, well, now they want to sleep on the floor--will that make it easier or harder to quiet down and go to sleep? What would be good and bad about sleeping on the floor vs. mattresses? Remind them that the goal is good sleep for everyone. What can we do to make that happen? Approach it as a problem you can solve together.

Good luck! Let us know how it's going.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

bbishopca said:


> This is what we do when we can but the problem here is our schedule. When I get home at 4:30 we still have to do homework, eat dinner, read for 20 minutes, clean up our messes, and get ready for the next day before going to bed at 6:30. That is where the stress is coming in because it is all work for me and my kids as soon as I get home. My only time with them is laying with them in bed for 10-15 minutes and talking about our days but since there actions up to bed have not been kind or respectful I have been forced to limit my time with them which is probably creating a cycle since the bad behavior is from lost connection and the lost connection is because of the bad behavior. Thanks for the suggestions.


I am confused again. They are age 4 and 5, and they have homework?? Also, earlier you said bedtime was 7:00, which already seemed too early to me, and in your last post bedtime was moved to 6:30?

There are many parents that give up on quality time because of 'have to's' that are of their own making. It may be true that your whole routine needs to be looked at to see what needs to take priority.

I also agree with Envirobecca, dragging the mattress out into the hallway sounds pretty extreme...and not really a natural consequence, because who else does that? Or in what naturally occurring situation does a person's bed get taken apart? Was this done in anger? Because I think that would be pretty scary to a little kid.

I hope you'll keep reaching out.

Did you check out Laura Markham yet? Let me link you to it to make it easier--next post.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

bbishopca said:


> my kids as soon as I get home. My only time with them is laying with them in bed for 10-15 minutes and talking about our days but since there actions up to bed have not been kind or respectful *I have been forced to limit my time* with them which is probably creating a cycle since the bad behavior is from* lost connection and the lost connection is because of the bad behavior*. Thanks for the suggestions.


Two more things: bolding above is mine---- no one is* forcing you to limit your time with them*--that is your choice. You have a choice about how to respond to their behavior! You can model the opposite of what they are giving you. YOU are the grown up. YOU get to set the tone, no matter how child like they are behaving, because they are children and they are learning.

*The lost connection is because of the bad behavior*: that is a myth. You do not have to lose a connection because of behavior. NOt in the least. That is also a choice you are making, and that you do not have to make. About behavior: you can choose to be playful, loving, curious and empathic about their behavior!! YOu do not have to get torqued or triggered! 

Laura Markham website:

http://www.ahaparenting.com/


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Lauren, my son had homework every week when he was in kindergarten. His school assigned a weekly packet which you could do as you had time during the week (we thought that was great) but I know that other schools give kindergartners daily homework Monday-Thursday; it can be completed in only 10-20 minutes, but it is something that the child (and therefore the parent) has to get around to doing. bbishopca has mentioned that his older daughter is in kindergarten but hasn't said whether the younger one attends school. I was assuming it's the kindergartner who has some homework.


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