# Other people insisting to your child that there is a Santa



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

We don't do Santa. My son is almost 3 and my daughter is 1. We are celebrating the Christian reasons for Christmas not Santa claus (complete with a birthday cake for Jesus). My inlaws are not Christians and GMIL is REALLY into Santa. She actually went and stood in line at the mall to get my kids little Santa hats and notepads that say my letter to Santa. I have told her repeatedly that we DO NOT DO SANTA. We will be going down for Christmas, well on Boxing day, for 4 days and doing a present exchange. I just know she is going to push the whole Santa thing again and probably put a present under the tree from Santa. I won't just play along because I am very opposed to this. So what should I do? I don't want to upset her but if there is presents from Santa under the tree I will probbaly say right out loud to DS oh someone is being funny pretending that Santa is real, but we know he's not. I don't mean to hurt her feelings but I have made MY feelings perfectly clear.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

If you can make your dh do it!! It will go over easier.

I would also not do the "someone is being silly". That could very easily be taken as a personal attack. It might be more tactful to sneak in and remove the tag. Or saying something like "Oh, someone wants to give you a gift anomosly so you don't need to thank them. They put From: Santa. How nice they love you so much. It is nice that we have such a generious family."

Saying how "silly" can imply a lot more than what you mean it to.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

MY







MOM







does







this







too


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hmmmm...

If your GMIL was Jewish and insisted on giving Hannukah presents, would you object?

See, I think for your GMIL, the Santa thing is part of *her* Christmas. And I think in her house she should be allowed to celebrate the holiday the way it has meaning for her. And maybe for her the Santa thing is the part she loves best about Christmas? I mean, it's different for each of us. It's obvious she loves the whole Santa thing.

Why not just explain to your children before going that some people believe in a guy named Santa, tell them the Santa story, and say that while you don't believe in Santa and therefore do not include him in your celebration of Christmas (which, for you, is about the birth of Jesus), your GMIL does. And that's OKAY because the world is full of people who celebrate the Holidays differently.


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

The thing about Santa and young kids is that to perpetuate a belief in the character who lives at the north pole essentially requires a lie; colusion which I think is an abuse of power by me, the adult who knows everything, over dd, who looks to me for guidance in the real world.

I have no problem with people presenting Santa as a story, a myth or a fictional character. That's what I would say regarding presents from santa, it's just pretend.

Dd is making up her own mind about the world and I'm not skewing her conclusions with erroneous data. Having fun with story, or an idea is fine. Me encouraging her to believe something which I know to be false is not.

Jen


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Sounds like there are bigger power issues going on here------everytime I have a fight wtih MIL, I know it's because we haven't established who's REALLY in charge--me or her.

Your child will encounter lots of people--perhaps teachers, neighbors, friends, etc. who talk about Santa as real. (And you don't want to spoil the fun for other kids.) So I guess you have to have a talk beforehand with your child about other people "pretending," and how it is ok for them to pretend, or something like that.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

I wouldn't say the "silly" thing either. We don't do Santa either and my in-laws are really into him. I just talked to dd about it (it comes up a LOT this time of year). I told her that lots of people like to pretend that Santa is real. So it's no big deal. She knows Santa is made up and at the same time she has no problem playing along. And then, after you go home, point out how nice it was of Grandma to give her XYZ. And wasn't it funny that she pretended it was from Santa?

I started reading Piglet's post and thought "no, it's not the same" but by the end I was nodding along with her







So I second what she wrote.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I don't do the Santa thing either. I also think it's the same thing as lying to a child and I just hate that. My grandparents like to tag some gifts as being from Santa. DD is only 17 months old, so this really isn't an issue right now. When she's a little older, I'll probably explain how some ppl really enjoy pretending about Santa. My mom bugged me aboutt the Santa thing for awhile, asking how I was going to teach DD about "being good" so that she'd get Christmas presents.







: I explained ot her that I see Christmas presents as an expression of love, reflecting the idea that Christ is God's gift to his children. That kind of love is unconditional and has nothing to do w/ "naughty or nice." She actually conceeded my point.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Why not just explain to your children before going that some people believe in a guy named Santa, tell them the Santa story, and say that while you don't believe in Santa and therefore do not include him in your celebration of Christmas (which, for you, is about the birth of Jesus), your GMIL does. And that's OKAY because the world is full of people who celebrate the Holidays differently.
This is exactly what I was going to say. (I'm not a Santa fan either, BTW.) I would think of this as an opportunity to reiterate your beliefs to your child while at the same time modeling how conflicts can be handled with tact and respect. (Even if you GMIL doesn't respect your beliefs, that's no excuse to behave the same toward her, IMHO. WWJD?







)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Alstrameria_
*The thing about Santa and young kids is that to perpetuate a belief in the character who lives at the north pole essentially requires a lie*
Well, just to play devil's advocate here....









Some people might think that telling a child Christmas is Jesus' birthday is also a lie. Truth is all relative, kwim?










Kind of like a Jewish kid telling a Christian kid that Jesus wasn't actually God. Whose truth is true?









I realize Santa isn't quite the same as God, but I think you can respect other peoples' love of Santa without feeling that they are "lying" to your child.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

A lie is defined as being a statement which one KNOWS to be false, told with the intention to decieve.

If a Jewish kids tells my Catholic kid that Jesus is not God, he is not lying, because he really believes that Jesus is not God.

Likewise, if I tell my dd that Jesus is God, I am not lying, because I really believe that Jesus is God.

However, if I tell my dd that the presents under the tree are from Santa, when I know full well that I bought them and I wrapped them and I wrote "from Santa" on them, I AM lying. I am saying what I KNOW to be false with the intention to decieve.

However, if I REALLY did believe in Santa, and I did NOT buy the presents, wrap them and put them under the tree, and I REALLY thought they were from Santa (even if it was really dh who did all that) I would not be lying.

In this case, I seriously doubt that the grandparents REALLY believe in Santa, especially when they know full well that they bought the presents and wrote "from Santa" on them.

If the grandparents really DID believe in Santa, you could say it was just their "tradition". However, since I am sure the grandparents are fully aware that they bought the presents and that a big man in a white beard and red suit did not fly down the chimmney, it is a lie.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Okay amelia, you got me!







I guess my analogy fails at that point.









My mother is a devout Christian and for her, it's all about Jesus. When we celebrate Christmas with my mother, I will explain to DD what my mum believes and what is important to her about Christmas. Now, even though my mother KNOWS that I am not Christian and don't believe the whole Jesus thing, I can guarantee you that she will tell the Jesus Nativity story until she's blue in the face as if it were a FACT and not just an article of faith. She is NOT going to leave the door open for interpretation, kwim?

And that is just fine with me, because it's her house, her party, and she has a right to celebrate it wholeheartedly the way she wants to.

I'll explain the differences to DD some other time.

So if some relative is big on the Santa thing, I'll do the same. It's their thing, ya know?


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

What? You mean there's no Santa ? !





















:


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by freespiritmom_
*What? You mean there's no Santa ? !





















:*
:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

I had this incredible arguement all planned and then I read this and all those wonderful words simply flew from my head.....

I have always done the Santa thing with my dd. It was only until this year that I decided that I owed it to her (who is 8) to tell her the truth and I owe it to my son (who is 10 months) not to lie to him either. So, Justice began asking questions about the differences in the Santa at WalMart and the Santa in the Christmas parade and I told her that Santa was a fairytale blah blah blah...well, I told her this on my way to my mother's house and when we got there Justice told my mom what I told her and my mother blessed me out for ruining Justice's christmas. WTF?????


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## Liz (Mar 8, 2002)

We don't do Santa so I tell my son that the whole Santa thing is a pretend game that some people play at Christmas. This way if anybody mentions Santa, if Santa visits his pre-school, if Santa is at the mall, etc. it is all part of this pretend game. Nobody is lying to him they are all just playing pretend. Which is true, right? Three year olds completely understand "playing pretend".







I say let Grandma have her Santa game. It can be something they play at her house.


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## bloobug (Nov 21, 2001)

We're not doing the Santa thing either. But, I believe I handled it entirely inappropriately. We were at my mom's house and she was going on and on about Santa and I looked at my 3 year old and said,"Santa's fake. He's like a cartoon. He's fun to pretend but he's not real."
My mom was mortified. She tried again to tell him that Santa was indeed real and ds says with a big smile on his face,"Santa's fake."
We were at the mall a few days later and happened to walk by the Santa. My mom was like "oh there's Santa."
In front of a line of 20 children and there parents ds yells at the top of his lungs, "Santa's fake!" I've never run so fast in my life. I felt so terrible. I'm sure every one of those parents will remember my face and come toilet paper my house or something.
Woops.









Megan


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, I , for one, *BELIEVE*









We are Christians. We also do the Santa thing. We do the tooth fairy too. I remember as a child how incredible it was to imagine Santa and all his little elves hard at work making gifts for children..and being facinated with the idea of all the toys being delivered around the world in one night lol.. I have very fond memories of leaving each tooth under my pillow at night for a magical little fairy to take and leave behind a little present for me...wanting to stay awake to see her because I imagined her being so beautiful! When I got older and realized that Santa and the toothfairy didn't exist.. I wasn't disappointed that my parents had lied to me. I was grateful and appreciative for them giving me the chance to dream and imagine that life was indeed full of magic and wonder... in so many ways. I still tell my teenagers that Santa is real. Of course they know different.. but when they start arguing with me I just stick my fingers in my ear and repeat "NOT LISTENING ..NOT LISTENING... LAA LAA LAA LAA LAA NOT LISTENING"







I wouldn't dream of taking that away from my younger children.

I do know people who don't do the Santa thing.. and that's okay. But I don't allow those people to tell my younger sons that there is no Santa without me putting in my 2 cents (of course







) .. My son's will have plenty of reality when the time comes ... Childhood, for me, means a time to dream and believe in the impossible. I consider it a gift to my children.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

bloobug, :LOL I think you want this smiley


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## bloobug (Nov 21, 2001)

Ah there it is. Thankyou Shannon.
Opening mouth, inserting foot right now.

Megan :LOL


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

I'm sure every one of those parents will remember my face and come toilet paper my house or something.

I've got a package of Charmin with your name on it


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

Quote:

Well, I , for one, *BELIEVE*

We are Christians. We also do the Santa thing. We do the tooth fairy too. I remember as a child how incredible it was to imagine Santa and all his little elves hard at work making gifts for children..and being facinated with the idea of all the toys being delivered around the world in one night lol.. I have very fond memories of leaving each tooth under my pillow at night for a magical little fairy to take and leave behind a little present for me...wanting to stay awake to see her because I imagined her being so beautiful! When I got older and realized that Santa and the toothfairy didn't exist.. I wasn't disappointed that my parents had lied to me. I was grateful and appreciative for them giving me the chance to dream and imagine that life was indeed full of magic and wonder... in so many ways. I still tell my teenagers that Santa is real. Of course they know different.. but when they start arguing with me I just stick my fingers in my ear and repeat "NOT LISTENING ..NOT LISTENING... LAA LAA LAA LAA LAA NOT LISTENING" I wouldn't dream of taking that away from my younger children.

I do know people who don't do the Santa thing.. and that's okay. But I don't allow those people to tell my younger sons that there is no Santa without me putting in my 2 cents (of course ) .. My son's will have plenty of reality when the time comes ... Childhood, for me, means a time to dream and believe in the impossible. I consider it a gift to my children.
I completely agree. And so does my 14yo who will still tell you there is indeed a Santa and he lives in the hearts of grownups. She tells me that she always loved the magic of Santa, and the fact that he chose Christmas eve to delivery gifts was his ultimate gift to Christ. She has wonderful memories of Santa, the tooth fairy... all of it. And she helps spread that magic to her younger sister and soon her baby brother. She knows that Santa is within us all - those of us delivery gifts to shelters this week, choosing an "angel" off a tree at the mall etc. Once upon a time Santa (Kris Kringle) did exist and he's handed down his role to others.

We believe. And i think if gramma believes, then maybe you could allow your child to honor her traditions. Its not a lie.


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## PinkSunfish (Oct 20, 2002)

Heavenly: Maybe a good compromise would be to tell your children the origin of Santa, afterall, the tale of St Nicholas is a nice Christian story. You could then go on to explain that since then some people like honour that story by giving gifts to children in his name (as Santa). You could also explain that some adults like to pretend that Santa is real but you don't do it at home.

That way your MIL gets to do her Christmas thing and you get to preserve the meaning of Christmas for your children.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

We don't lie about anything, either. When the kids ask why it rains, it isn't because god cries or plants ask for water - it is because of evaporation and condensation and precipitation.

We don't 'do' Santa the way everyone else does - but there ARE Santa-presents under the tree. We have explained to our children that sometimes you want to give someone something without them knowing it was you. We have explained a little of the origins of Santa and we've explained that at Christmastime, it is often extra-fun to give people extra gifts. When we do that, we can label them "Santa."

The kids know full well that the presents under the tree do not come from a real "Santa." But at 2 and 4, they haven't figured out that DH and I buy them yet (especially since there are even MORE gifts from "Santa" when they get to their grandparents' houses). They think that the Santa at the mall is there to arrange the anonymous gifts  (well, DD thinks that, and I'm not sure what DS thinks). I have no problem with this idea, since it is in essence true.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I like Pinksunfish's idea.

I haven't decided what to do with this yet. Goo is Jewish and I was raised Christrian, so this is the first year she is getting the Santa thing from others. I, on my part, am making the hanukah traditions very important althought the holidays are not even close to being equivalent.


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## MJmommy (May 23, 2003)

If you want to teach children that there is magic in the world because you really believe there is, than why lie and tell them things you know are untrue. Aren't there enough real miracles in the world. It's so cynical to me to think that the only way to foster a sense of imagination and magic is to tell a lie...

With no help from the two camps (yes there is a Santa and No there isn't) my son is making up his own stories and creating his own version of what that is. Anyone who says anything definitive either way is just stepping on toes...let them dictate how the story goes and what they want to believe.

Fibs to inspire faith, how depressing.

*I do think the stories and characters are fun and harmless when not presented as fact and ellaborated upon.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

MJMommy ~ I think you have missed the entire point. I couldn't disagree with you more.

I typed out a eloquate message.. elaborating again on my personal views of this topic.. but deleted it since I would just be repeating myself







:

Quote:

It's so cynical to me to think that the only way to foster a sense of imagination and magic is to tell a lie...
no one stated that it was the "only" way.

Ya know.. I just frankly don't get the whole "don't lie to my kids" thing.. I lie to my kids and harbor no guilt for doing so.. I feel it a duty to protect my kids from some of the harsh truths of this world...especially at such a young age. They don't need or deserve to hear 100% of the truth 100% of the time.

I thank God that my mother was wise enough to see the importance of teaching me to believe in things that I could not see... and had faith in my ability to decide what was "real" and what wasn't on my own. Her "lies" fostered an imagination in me that brings forth some of the warmest memories of my childhood. ..and her "fibs" inspired faith of such magnitude that I STILL believe in things I can't see.

Nothing personal though..just my opinion. I do know and respect many who don't do santa etc.. I parent my children differently than they do.. much differently in fact. It's all okay


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Just because I answer my daughter truthfully, it doesn't mean that I am discouraging a belief in things unseen. It takes an awful big leap of faith for a toddler to believe that after rain falls, it 'jumps' back up into the sky because it was warmed by the sun. She is plenty imaginative, and I encourage that - but if she asks me a question, she will get an honest answer (if a bit toned down at times).

I have a lot more respect for what someone says when the previous things they have said have proved to be true. I want my daughter to have that kind of respect for me. If I tell her why I believe in God, it may hold more weight when I haven't told her that I believe in the Easter Bunny. I don't know how much sense that makes to people. I know that this holds true in my life, though.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Just because I answer my daughter truthfully, it doesn't mean that I am discouraging a belief in things unseen. It takes an awful big leap of faith for a toddler to believe that after rain falls, it 'jumps' back up into the sky because it was warmed by the sun. She is plenty imaginative, and I encourage that - but if she asks me a question, she will get an honest answer (if a bit toned down at times).

Quote:

I have a lot more respect for what someone says when the previous things they have said have proved to be true. I want my daughter to have that kind of respect for me. If I tell her why I believe in God, it may hold more weight when I haven't told her that I believe in the Easter Bunny. I don't know how much sense that makes to people. I know that this holds true in my life, though.
Well said, Nicole. After reading freespiritmom's original post, I was feeling a little bad -- I wondered if I'm robbing my children of some glorious childhood moments. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it just wouldn't work *for me*. If other families can handle the fine line between encouraging fantasy and lying, fine for them. But if I told my kids Santa was real, *I* would feel like I was lying to them, and it would violate my consceince. (sp?) I would be in doing something I felt to be wrong in front of (and to) my kids. I think kids can pick up on those vibes, and it could spell bad news for all of us.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

Just because I answer my daughter truthfully, it doesn't mean that I am discouraging a belief in things unseen.
You are right..And just because I allow my young sons to believe that magic exists in the world around them .. it doesn't mean that they will grow up without being able to differentiate between fantasy and truth.. There will be a time when my younger sons will learn, like my olders son have.. that some of their youthful fantasies were only that.. and, like myself, will hold them dear to their hearts.

I keep trying to remember Dr. Laura's response to a call from a father one day.. whose wife wanted to encourage the idea of Santa at Christmas with their young child. He was opposed because he too viewed it as a "lie".. Dr. Laura had a brilliant response..... which of course I can't remember for the life of me







" lol.. anyway.. I love that woman!









Quote:

It takes an awful big leap of faith for a toddler to believe that after rain falls, it 'jumps' back up into the sky because it was warmed by the sun.
My toddler understanding concepts of earth science is far less important to me than helping to give him the memories that my mother created for me. I think those of us who differ in our point of view possibly had very different childhoods.. I don't know one parent who grew up with the idea of Santa who now thinks of it as a harmful idea to share with their young children. And if they do I would be curious to know why. I know 2 families who don't do Santa.. One family is Jehovah's Witnesses and the other family just doesn't see any point in starting the santa thing because they didn't grow up with the concept in their own homes.

I also don't know one parent who walks around all day making up fictitious characters and fantasies so they can confuse their children and damage their psychy (sp?) lol.. Santa's name is used in our home one month a year.. and brings a smile to my child's face... The toothfairy made a visit to our house last week and my 5 year old son insists on putting the dollar she left him in his scrap book







What a beautiful memory for him to look back on when he is old enough to know that such magic doesn't exist.

Quote:

If I tell her why I believe in God, it may hold more weight when I haven't told her that I believe in the Easter Bunny.
I understand what you are saying.. My parents were Christians and made it easy for me to believe in God in our house because I knew from the beginning that some things were "real" even if I couldn't see them. I learned as time went by what was true and what wasn't.. without any harm done









Nicole~ I'm sorry that my post made you bad.. That was not my intention at all.. just sharing a point of view which I feel strongly about. The people that I know that don't do santa are wonderful parents... with wonderful children. It's just a difference of opinion and a different way of parenting.. and like I said earlier.. it's all okay









I think the main reason why I feel so strongly about this is because of the wonderful childhood memories I have. They are special to me.. and it would make me terribly sad if I thought I was denying my children the chance to make similar memories. It's important to me and it works for our family.. but I don't think it has to for everyone.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Thanks freespiritmom - I may have over-reacted a bit - it is a concern of mine that some people seem to think I am creating closed-minded children. They are not - they make up great stories and love to pretend-play. They also are very much encouraged to answer their own questions whenever possible.

The earth science thing was more an example than anything else. It holds true for everything from why cookies rise in the oven to why mommy goes to church to why we can't see Mitsy anymore.

I was raised with the Santa Claus idea. I don't think that it is particularly harmful at all - but I think that it would be inconsistent with how I treat my children in other areas. For some parents, this may not be a big leap, but for me it is. For my husband it is as well. I honestly don't feel incredibly strongly about it, and if he thought we should 'do' Santa, we probably would. I don't feel damaged by my parents doing the Santa thing. I'm not trying to spare her the 'pain of finding out' or anything silly like that, either. I just feel like it isn't fitting with how we deal with other things around here, that's all.


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## MJmommy (May 23, 2003)

I believe you've missed my point. Why not let the kids run the show if it's about them? My son wants a Christmas Pumpkin! No hard feelings, I just think kids are set up when they are given "facts" surrounding Santa. We spoil their fun on many levels when we take over.

By the way...HAPPY HOLIDAYS!


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

I believe you've missed my point.
I have to agree with ya here







.. I don't get your point at all









Nikirj~ It seems that you are doing what it best for your famiy.. what you feel most comfortable with. I wouldn't feel comfortable switching flights in mid-air either.. and suddenly announcing to the kids that there is a fat old man in a red suit that flies around the world on Christmas Eve.. squeezing into chimneys to leave toys under the tree







I don't think children are cheated at Christmas by not doing the santa thing if it is something that is totally foreign to them. It is just natural for us... I would be sad if I knew I had to exclude him from our holiday. I'd be too afraid I'd end up on his naughty list and get a big ole lump of coal in my stocking









Definitely no hard feelings to anyone!! Different parenting ideas and styles make for a very interesting world.


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by nikirj_
*Thanks freespiritmom - I may have over-reacted a bit - it is a concern of mine that some people seem to think I am creating closed-minded children. They are not - they make up great stories and love to pretend-play. They also are very much encouraged to answer their own questions whenever possible.

The earth science thing was more an example than anything else. It holds true for everything from why cookies rise in the oven to why mommy goes to church to why we can't see Mitsy anymore.

I was raised with the Santa Claus idea. I don't think that it is particularly harmful at all - but I think that it would be inconsistent with how I treat my children in other areas.*
I agree with everything you said nikirj. It doesn't fit with our parenting either. We respect our dd and in our family you don't lie to people you respect. I hear the "I grew up with it and it didn't hurt me" argument about this and other topics as well. We strive to do better than just doing no harm. And in this case, I do believe it's harmful. I hope dd can forge her own memories, and that the universe as it exists is enough to inspire awe in her, as it does me.

Jen


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## MJmommy (May 23, 2003)

"I hope dd can forge her own memories, and that the universe as it exists is enough to inspire awe in her, as it does me."

That was my point, just much more eloquently put...


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Well, my x hub just called and really let me have it. He said that I took Santa away from him


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Hi all and thanks for all the input. I understand everyone's position but I still feel that my ILs should not do the Santa thing with my children. So DH is going to call ILs tonight and let them know that we don't want any of that going on. I am very opposed to Santa for religious reasons so "going along with it" to me would be going against my beliefs and I'm not willing to do that. My kids definately experience the magic of Christmas without Santa. And the better thing is my son realizes the TRUE spirit of Christmas which is giving not receiving. All Santa focuses on is receiving. How many little boys not even 3 years old will remind you every time you go in a grocery store that "the people are hungry mommy" and then pick something out for the food bank? How many 3 year olds will help buy toys for Operation Christmas Child and be so excited he says "I am so happy that we are helping this little boy"? And how many little kids when you ask them why we celebrate Christmas will say without pause that Christmas is Jesus birthday and we are so thankful He came to save us? Not many and I am darn proud that my little guy is so focused on giving to others not gimme, gimme, gimme.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

It's kind of the opposite for me... we celebrate Christmas not for the Christian reasons but for the Pagan roots and for Santa Claus








The Waldorf idea of childrearing really hits home with me. I have no problem inspiring my children's imaginations by using fantasy and metaphor to explain reality as opposed to hard, cold facts. "Father Winter" makes it snow...... "Sister Spring" brings life and rain..... I believe now is the primetime for right brain development before it is lost to concrete left-brain information, which takes over after age seven. I believe it actually makes children more creative and intelligent to inspire their fantasy and play worlds when they are this young. That's why we love Santa and the elves so much








I agree, Christmas memories are the best memories I have. I used to "write" to the elves and they'd "write" back for the whole month of December... I'd ponder Santa and listen to stories of the reindeer and try to stay up to hear hooves on our rooftop.... I am so grateful that I had so much fantasy and joy and excitement when I was young....


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## KandD (Dec 27, 2001)

I'm in there with FreeSpiritMom -- I think childhood is about being free to dream and imagine and believe.

Santa is so real to my 4 year old because I didn't limit him to a person. We talk about Santa being the spirit of Christmas and about the people who dress as Santa to help keep alive that feeling. I just support the Santa story with the idea that it is as much a feeling and a spirit of giving and joy as it is about the fat man in the red suit. When he gets older, I'm hoping his belief will simply transfer to the more esoteric explanation.

Edited to add: the in-law problem is different -- I think in-laws are here to embody the feeling of tolerance.


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## mother4good (Mar 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*I understand everyone's position but I still feel that my ILs should not do the Santa thing with my children.*
I have to agree with you despite some of the good points that have been brought up. I feel it is VITAL that your families, friends, whomever realizes who is in charge of your family and YOUR children. We had a little confusion there in the beginning, and still have to repeat ourselves from time to time on various issues such as discipline, vaccines, and other things, but over all, our kids are much clearer on OUR family rules and traditions that I think they would be if we just tried to let everyone do what was comfortable for them. We do not do the Easter Bunny, but for Santa we do allow it. We read the story of St. Nick and do let them take a picture with a guy they know is dressed up. Other than that we mostly only discuss Christmas as Jesus's birthday and all that surrounds it religiously speaking. For us, I think the 2 can co-exist as long as we are clear on the focus. You have to do what is best for YOU. As for the Easter Bunny, we could not tolerate him at all because he has no religious roots that I can find. When people like my elderly grandmother ask the kids about the Easter Bunny, they usually turn to me and say "he's just pretend, right?". Kids seem to get it so much easier than us messy adults, huh!

Do not allow you inlaws to confuse your children or step on your authority. Would you let them feed your kids a hamburger if you were vegetarian? Some people are harder to convince than others, but I would and have use/d words like to SILLY to make it clear that we disapprove. We have also said outright "you have proven to us that you do not honor our parental authority and therefore will not be allowed to visit with our kids unsupervised" (a big request at one time). Whether or not we would have let them do this anyway was not the point. Making the statement made a big impact and 4 years later, we find the families are much less likely to impose.

Good luck!


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*Hi all and thanks for all the input. I understand everyone's position but I still feel that my ILs should not do the Santa thing with my children. So DH is going to call ILs tonight and let them know that we don't want any of that going on. I am very opposed to Santa for religious reasons so "going along with it" to me would be going against my beliefs and I'm not willing to do that. My kids definately experience the magic of Christmas without Santa. And the better thing is my son realizes the TRUE spirit of Christmas which is giving not receiving. All Santa focuses on is receiving. How many little boys not even 3 years old will remind you every time you go in a grocery store that "the people are hungry mommy" and then pick something out for the food bank? How many 3 year olds will help buy toys for Operation Christmas Child and be so excited he says "I am so happy that we are helping this little boy"? And how many little kids when you ask them why we celebrate Christmas will say without pause that Christmas is Jesus birthday and we are so thankful He came to save us? Not many and I am darn proud that my little guy is so focused on giving to others not gimme, gimme, gimme.*
I agree Santa seems to be all about the gear. Sure you can nicey it up with the spirit idea, but to me that's very separate. This year we donated to the soup kitchen and dh's work adopted a family that we picked a gift for. Those are the things I want dd to be a a part of. We are heathen, but the giving part is the same. Also to be with family and friends.

My parents are big on Santa but we (dh and I) have two big advantages; we are her parents and have the most influence in her life, and that our way, really, precludes theirs. If I am honest with her, she will know the truth, and so any attempts to convince her that Santa is real will ultimately fail.

Candiland, I have no problem with imagination, and pretending. I have a good imagination. We encourage creativity and pretend play. However, this is almost entirely child-led. There's a difference between letting dd stretch her right-brain muscle and me telling her something false is true.

Jen


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I think one imporatnat lesson to teach a child is compassion. Another one is tolerance. I am Jewish and we selbrate Hannnukah at home. My Dh is agnosti but my MIL, who si methodist, is really into Santa kind of Christama . we come and selbrate with her. She is older woman and she adores my kids and babysit for us and they love spedning time with her
So I simpyl told my kids that different people celbrate different holidays and belive in various things . We say one blessing over our meal at home, but we say amen to the bellsing of our MIL in her house
It give my MIL a great joy to ahe large selbration in her house....and I am not going to be mean to her. I do not bele in Jesus, but I respect her belive. and I think US obession with x-mas gifts is hilarious and somehwat appauling, but we are guest in her house, thus we will exhange gifts
She comes to my Passover and calls my kids eveyday on Hannukah.
I have a feeling that kids actually learn rather eyarly that there is no tooth fairy or santa, but they paly pretend with their parents
And kidsa re perfectely capabale of having diffrent relationship with different peole in thier lifes
Imagine you have a daugther in las who is Budshist or Jew, and when she come to her house with her kids or you come to hers, she starts saying things like, "No outloud blessing in front of my kids because I do not belive that Jesus is a real person or son of God". I doubt your would like it. If you son is so wonderful and charitable,and I am sure he is with mother ike you, do you really think a present from Santa (andn I sure he knos it is form grndma) gogin to sorrupt him? YOu are the biggest influcnce in his life
We do not pick our parent or in lwas. The only way to completely free you family form any influces you do not like is to cut off the contact withe veryone and only be with people who are excately like you......and there are many problmes with that approach to life


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Hmmm, good point Alenushka! I do intend to model tolerance to dd when it comes to other people's religious beliefs. I am tolerant. However, I can't equate that with santa.

For example, my MIL/FIL are anglican, and FIL is big-time in to his church. So, there will be some integration there. I don't intend for her to dismiss his faith, but I do expect her to question it if she wants to know.

The difference for me is that FIL believes in god. My parents don't believe in santa. They know he isn't real. For some reason, they want dd to believe in him anyway. It really doesn't matter how you paint it, if they tell dd the presents they bought dd are from santa, they are lying to her. I'm not comfortable with that. We will tell dd that presents from santa are for when the giver wants it to be a secret. It's pretend. If she would also like to pretend, then well and ok.

And I feel a little goofy going on at length about how to explain the _stuff_. That's not even the important part of it all! It's freakin' gear! Better to spend the time being thankful we have a happy healthy family and can be together. I hope that sparkly tree with the stuff underneath it always takes second seat to a meal together.

Have I gone off topic now? Anyway, I hope if I do lie to my kids it's about something less trivial than where presents come from.

Jen


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I think holiday are very difficult time for familie because eveyone ahs their own idea of what it tru and what is it and what amount of pretend should be there. But I think one thing is important to remebr that of coure, granparents relate to grnadchildrne on a completely different level. And it is possibale that grandma can only relate in a way of Santa and gift. It something that gave her joy as child and now she wants to pass it on to her childnre. It is compassionate to allow her to have some of that joy as long as the gift giving is note xxceive or violent. It is also OK to tell ked that , "Grndma blives in Santa but we do not, for us, Cristmas is about birth of Jesus"
There is nothing worng with explaining
My kids know that grandma gives toys, and this what she likes to do, and I give them books, and only books for Hannukah and this what I like to do
I find it very easy to be compassionate toward anonymous hungry childrne in Russian orphanage....but it is much ahrder to be compassioante toward people who are clsoe to us. We all involve din complicated relatihsips and sometime power stuggle with loved ones.
Your probably have some fear that commercial, materialist Santa holiday will overide your religous selebration...it is undersndable
The more big deal you make out of it, the more likely it is to happen. Kids covet things they can;t have. as long as they know that Santa thing happens only at grandma's but not at your house....they are most liekly going to be fine
I am not sure it is fair to dictate to grnaparent on which temr they can or can;t relate to kids....as long as we are not talking about ouright abuse and neglect etc
Well, good luck
I hope your have great holidya either way


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## lilmiss'mama (Mar 8, 2002)

Well, this thread is exactly what I was looking for. My Dds are 2.5 and 1. I have been thinking about how I will handling the Santa thing for my oldest. My entire family has always done Santa. When I was 7 years old I begged my mom to tell me the truth "was Santa real?" Her answer, "no" I cried and cried. I do not want my daughters to go thru that. I have read every post in this thread and for the most part they all make sense in some way to me. However I like candilands post (page 2) the best. I too like the Waldorf style of teaching and see no problem with improvising on cold hard facts. To me 'Sister Spring' is not a lie. It is just the magic. And in the end I guess that is how I feel about Santa. In some form he does exist, kind of like fairies, for me. There will not be presents wrapped up under the tree from me that say from santa, but I think I will teach the girls that santa is the giving spirit of Christmas, or something like that.







However, this year will probably be a lot of observation on my part as to what dd is picking up and what questions she asks. Next year will probably the time for a more concrete explanation.


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by freespiritmom_
*Childhood, for me, means a time to dream and believe in the impossible. I consider it a gift to my children.*
I too remember not being able to sleep on Christmas Eve . . . wondering if Santa would like the cookies we baked - and my special sprinkles on top. I would think about whether he liked chocolate milk or if white milk was okay. I would have daddy put out the fire before bed and always left him a note of thanks. It took forever to fall asleep - every noise was Rudolph and every creek was hoofs on the roof. Such an exciting time.

And Santa *did* come and leave a stocking full of wonder and unwrapped, displayed gifts. He wrote me letters and sometimes left 'soot' marks next to the hearth where he stood and ate his cookies before disappearing back up the chimney.

Childhood wonder - yes! I loved it.

I discovered Santa wasn't real when I was 9. I woke and needed to pee and heard rustling in the living room. I peaked around the corner to see my parents assembling a barbie motor home. At first I was confused and then Mom saw me. Her face was crushed - and at 9 I knew it was as big a deal for them as it was for me. So, we sat and ate Santa's cookies and drank his milk and talked about how exciting it was to dream of Santa. For some reason, it wasn't heart-wrenching for me. I was up late with my parents and all was explained and I always knew I would do the same.

I guess I don't view it as a lie in the same sense as it has been discussed. It is a long-lived fairytale that comes to an end later in life just when you're old enough to understand the truth.

I too *believe*


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

This has been an interesting thread because I've seen a lot to think about.

Our decision is the same as yours Heavenly... I won't tell my dd that Santa is real because he isn't and I believe the real reason of Christmas is to celebrate God's gift to man. My dd hasn't really noticed Santa much, but we don't have cable and I haven't told her anything about Santa. My parents raised me knowing Santa wasn't real, so I don't have to worry about them telling her. I do wonder about MIL though







She's always telling dd stuff like "if you don't stop running around, I'm going to go home" or "I'm going to take that toy back if you don't stop" but never does... so I guess if she did tell dd about Santa, Ellie probably wouldn't believe her!


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

We also dont do the "Santa thing" in our house. But we also dont do the "jesus thing" at christmas either (we are firmly atheist and raising the kids that way too...please dont lecture us on this point...it wont do any good). We celebrate the season as a good time to show people you love and appreciate them by giving gifts. So we get equally irritated both when people say things to our kids about Santa and when they make comments about jesus. My kids dont know any more about jesus than they do Santa, and that is the way we want it ! I just wish people wouldnt look at us like we were aliens when our kids are perplexed by their comments about these two (what we consider) "myths" ! We sometimes hear "They dont know jesus ? How sad !" NO ! They dont know jesus and thats the way we want it, so leave us alone !


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

knowing and beliveing.
I think it is imprtant for anyone, Jew, Christina, Agnostic or Atheisit or BUdhist, to know the myths of each other....
I think it is really hard to read literatue wihout some basic knowldege of worl religions. There are various refernece and allusions all over. One does not need to belive in orser to know. Wahtever we like it or not, myths are nuversla and aprt of all cultures


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I agree, Alenushka.

My mother will have the task of teaching DD who Jesus was and how Christians celebrate Christmas. I know Mum will love being able to tell DD all about Jesus' birth story (which I always thought was a lovely story). I will just make sure that DD knows that not everybody believes the same thing (like mama and daddy for example, lol), and explain the other stories around this holiday season. But I think it's important and wonderful for her to get to see firsthand that this season is many things to many people.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I think that there is a very fine line between protecting your right to parent your children as you feel it is appropriate and engendering a view in them that the way other people do things is wrong. I'm inclined to agree with Piglet68 that there's no harm to be done by recognizing that your inlaws celebrate Christmas differently than you do and allowing your children to participate in that. After all, in a fundamental way, families are microcosms for the world and if a child can't learn to understand, appreciate, and respect the differences within the family, among people he knows and loves, the chances for him to develop that capacity in the world at large, among people he doesn't know and with whom he has no particular affinity, are reduced.

I also struggled with the Santa thing. I did not want to do Santa for many of the reasons brought up here: lying to children, the emphasis on getting stuff, using Santa as a stick to beat children into behaving, and that fact that Christmas is, fundamentally, a Christian holiday and we are not Christian. My dh very much wanted to do Santa because he felt that his happy memories of Christmas anticipation are some of his most special memories of childhood.

We talked at length, for several years, about this issue. What I finally decided is that 1) in America today, Christmas and Santa are very much cultural institutions, regardless of their religious origins; 2) believing in Santa *is* a lot of fun; and 3) I was taking a very minor issue and making it much larger than it is. I think a very small minority of adults look back on their childhood belief in Santa and think "HOW could my parents have LIED to me like that??" I don't think very many people ever trace their inability to trust in others to the fact that their parents lied to them about Santa. Someone mentioned Santa being an extended fairy tale that kids naturally grow out of when they are ready. I believe that is true. Children hold all sorts of wild ideas when they are young and they naturally relinquish those ideas as they mature. I don't view it as disrespectful to help children enjoy age-appropriate magical thinking. And I think it's absolutely compatible to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday and Santa as a secular one. After all, in many European countries, Christmas and whatever version of Santa is culturally relevant to the country come at different times and are in no way related.

I have researched the origins of Santa quite extensively and I have found that Santa Claus as we know him is an amalgamation of Christian and pagan stories with no one clear unifiying origin. He became what he became to meet the needs of lots of different traditions. Santa is truly a celebration of diversity!

Of course my ideas are merely my ideas and are presented here for informational purposes only. Of course you have to do what is best for your family. I do, however, take a bit of offense at the implications of

Quote:

All Santa focuses on is receiving. How many little boys not even 3 years old will remind you every time you go in a grocery store that "the people are hungry mommy" and then pick something out for the food bank? How many 3 year olds will help buy toys for Operation Christmas Child and be so excited he says "I am so happy that we are helping this little boy"? And how many little kids when you ask them why we celebrate Christmas will say without pause that Christmas is Jesus birthday and we are so thankful He came to save us? Not many and I am darn proud that my little guy is so focused on giving to others not gimme, gimme, gimme.
I feel like it is being implied that only children who don't believe in Santa can be such caring, selfless people. I don't believe that is true at all. I think it is a function of how a child is raised and not whether a child believes in Santa and enjoys receiving Santa gifts that determines a child's capacity for empathy and his enjoyment at helping others.

Wilma


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I realizied after reading all those posts
To me, it is not a Christmas tree, it is New Year tree. Unless a Russian is a Russian orthdox Christian, they have New Yer tree. not Christmas tree. Thus it never interfered with me being jewish. Not Snta, but Father Frost, who comes to kids of all persvuasion....I grew up in secural communist country. and gifts were give on 31 st, New Year gifts, not Christma gifts
So, i actully like the fact that my in laws selebrate Snata kind of Christma, with Jesus only mentioned at the dinner table blessing. It makes is it much easier on me.We simply treat x-mas as big family renuion holiday (I will later explain the legend of Jesus and Mary in more detail to my kids)
I think there are 2 Christmases in US now. One si disnitcily secular economy moving Snta singin and another one is religous one


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

Candiland, I have no problem with imagination, and pretending. I have a good imagination. We encourage creativity and pretend play. However, this is almost entirely child-led. There's a difference between letting dd stretch her right-brain muscle and me telling her something false is true.
Ahhh..... but I shall have to disagree








If she believes Santa is real because she sees him every year in the mall, for example, and because she hears about him at Christmastime..... wouldn't it be "playing along" to go along with her fantasy play? Or do you say, well, I'll let her pretend that the fairies are real, because they're not commercialized, but I'll tell her the truth about Santa because otherwise I'd be lying








Or, when she acts as if fairies are real, do you jump in and say, "Oh, but you DO know they are pretend, right?"

Do you catch my drift?


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## Nada (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:

I'm in there with FreeSpiritMom -- I think childhood is about being free to dream and imagine and believe.
ITA with FreeSpiritMom as well and even moreso with this from KandD:

Quote:

Santa is so real to my 4 year old because I didn't limit him to a person. We talk about Santa being the spirit of Christmas and about the people who dress as Santa to help keep alive that feeling. I just support the Santa story with the idea that it is as much a feeling and a spirit of giving and joy as it is about the fat man in the red suit. When he gets older, I'm hoping his belief will simply transfer to the more esoteric explanation.

Edited to add: the in-law problem is different -- I think in-laws are here to embody the feeling of tolerance.
My dd is 7 years old and still believes in Santa. She is however asking alot of questions about him. We answer as logically as we can putting emphasis on him representing the "spirit of giving".

Nada, just my $0.02









Edited to fix KandD's name







- I'm tired!


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I happen to have an almost photographic like memories of my childhood. Not just thing swhich happened but my feelings too.
LEt me put it this way....I do not know if evey child feels this way, but I suspect a lot do
BElivening in Santa, or tooth fairy, or esitance of chimney spirits was not like a belive in God, or reincarnation
I imagined sntat and fairies, and ahd all kids of talk to them.....but I also on another level knew that they were not real
My son ahs an imaginarey firend, existance of whom he easily suspend when he need to


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## kathryn5kids (Dec 7, 2003)

I know what you mean about "we don't do Santa". We too tell our children that it's the celebration of the birth of Jesus. (The birthday cake is a cute idea!) As for the hmmm, the store way of celebrating toys, christmas trees, and Santa Claus, well we do them except for Santa. My husband is strict to let the children know that we spend our hard working money to buy the gifts we give to them (5 children). And We don't go hog wild, mainly because there's five children, but more for the fact we remind them it's not the toys that make Christmas it's family being together to celebrate. The biological father of my first two children is a total Santa freak. I mean with the carrots and cookies on the plate. So my 6 and 7 year old (who are also the oldest) knows there is no Santa, but let's there Dad pretend. I guess they know they'll get more toys that way, Ha, Ha!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

I think that there is a very fine line between protecting your right to parent your children as you feel it is appropriate and engendering a view in them that the way other people do things is wrong.
So true. I grew up in an evangelical Christian home, and this was a big issue for me as I grew older. I sometimes felt that my parents and my church had mis-represented other tradtions and beliefs in order to make them seem silly or unattractive. When I left home and discovered that they were not always so, I felt as though I had been lied to, even though my parents didn't view it as lying. (There's that lying issue again!) I *didn't* feel this way about their treatment of Santa, however. I was raised knowing that Jesus was the reason for Christmas. Santa was never presented as real, but my family played along with the myth for fun. We left cookies out, sat on Santa's lap at the mall, etc. I knew from very early on that the mall santa was a guy in a suit, and that my dad ate the cookies! :LOL But it was still fun.

As someone who grew up with a strict belief system, I do believe that there can be danger in going too far with prohibiting things like Santa. This doesn't mean you shouldn't set standards of course, but a little relaxation won't cause kids to be suckers for every thing that comes along. On the contrary, they will know about other beliefs and tradtions, and (more importantly) about how your family responds to those beliefs. They will learn how to distinguish between "silly" myths (Santa) and serious issues of faith (for Christians, perhaps something that directly contradicts a command in the Bible.) If *every* non-Christian (or non-Jewish or non-Pagan, etc.) tradition is met with prohibition, then there is no sense of relative danger. For example, let's say a kid for whom even *pretending* about Santa was prohibited later learns about how much harmless (in his view) fun Santa was for his peers and decides that his parents over-reacted. How is he to respond to his parents' more serious prohibitions such as avoiding occultism (for Christians) or underage drinking, or premarital sex? Are those issues ultimately as trivial as Santa? How does he know they are not? I don't mean to disrespect anyone's parenting choices here. Everyone has the right to set the standards they deem appropriate and expect others to respect them. I'm just giving my perspective based on my experience and the experience of my friends from church youth group.







I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas, with or without Santa!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

BunnysMama, that was a great post. ITA, I have not met any child who was scarred or lacking in trust b/c their parents told them about Santa. I'm guessing alot more needs to be thrown into that pot to make it an issue for them.

I have to say, that I started out this thread thinking that I would not tell DD that Santa was real, but now I'm thinking that it might be kind of fun for a bit, as long as my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek (which, if she's anything like me, will be understood at a very early age, lol).


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## mamakarata (Nov 20, 2001)

interesting story,

when my dd was 8 yo, i was starting to become somewhat concerned about how to deal with the truth about santa.

well around this time, she and i were in the habit of meditating together at night before bed.

so one night sitting side by side with her, i prepare to meditate and in that preparation, i mentally hope for some insight on dealing with this issue.

nothing profound comes to me during this meditation. it was the usual struggle to maintain my focus on my breathing etc,

but at the end of the meditation, dd tells me excitedly all about this idea she got in her meditation...

she wants to bring $3.00 (don't ask me why she chose that #), and put it in a little wooden boat down at the river near our house, and tye a string to it, in hopes that someone who deperately needed money would find the $3.00 to help them.

she would feel on the string that they got the money, but they wouldn't know it was just some kid who left the money, rather, (and heres the part that gets me every time i think about it)

"they would just think that it was spirit, because spirit has given me such a good family, i would like them to think spirit was giving something good to them too"

now if you read this far, you must see how profound THAT was to hear upon the end of our meditation, where i had just hoped for some insight on dealing with the whole santa thing.

the answer became (obviously) as clear as anything!

santa IS real, because his spirit is, and always will remain alive through those who believe in his spirit of giving!

what i always told her with regard to the various and sometimes strange looking santa's at street corners and in the mall, was that santa has many helpers, but no one really gets to see the 'REAL" santa. he's magic!

so later when the issue came to it's final end, it was so easy to explain it to her just that way.- (she is now 13) and this year she absolutely delighted in passing on the sprit to our 2 yo her brother by helping with his stocking, putting out the cookies and carrots. it is a joy!

btw, dh is agnostic, i am more of a mystic (developing my higher self), and dd has taken to wicca on her own. so no real religous references. solstice is probably more of our focus in general. we all know jesus wasn't really born in december, but as many others have said, people choose this time o year to celebrate for many reasons.

it's all about the love in the end!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

This was a wonderful thread to read!!!

This year, DD (4) was *Santa* at our In-Laws house. She & I made lotion, lip gloss and bookmarks, bought pencils and she & DH made CDs for everyone. Then she & I put them in stockings. MIL also added some stuff which made a surprise for her.

The odd thing about this is she acts as if she believes Santa is "real." BUT, we had Santa come to our house on Dec 19th and she, herself was "Santa" on Dec 24th so I'm not sure what she thinks Santa is. When she asks questions about Santa, I say how I *think* it works, but just the same I would explain how things are working in a movie or book. I assume someday she will come straight out and ask if Santa is "real" but I will wait until then.

Thanks for all the different ideas. What a great bunch of kids we are all raising!!!


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## VitaminMom (Jun 18, 2003)

Thank you all!

I think I've spent an hour undulged in everyone's different thoughts and ideas. It has been at least 3 months since a thread has "inspired" me to contribute. Unfortunately, you have already said everything I would!

As for us; we are santa celebrating athetists who come from different religious backgrounds


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

There have been so many great points made here!

I still can't get comfortable w/ the idea of telling my child that Santa is _real_ . To me, it's still a lie. Even though it's a little one, it makes a difference to me. I ask myself, would I be okay w/ my children telling me "just a little" lie? The answer is no.

To me, there's a huge difference between allowing or encouraging your children to imagine something fun. I'm not saying I feel the need to point out everything that is pretend, but I still feel like it would be crossing the line to directly say I believe something is real when it is not. I think you can still enjoy the fun of Santa w/o saying to your children that he's really real. You also don't have to beat them over the head w/ the idea that he's fake. KWIM?

I think a lot of kids remember the Santa stuff from childhood very fondly. I also think a lot of kids remember feeling a little duped when they found out that it wasn't true. I remember being a little pissed at my mom when I found out the truth. I felt like I'd been tricked. No, it didn't shatter our relationship or cause any long term trauma, but I do remember it and that's something. Same thing w/ the tooth fairy.

I think there's pleanty of ways to give children a feeling of magic w/o having to say "Santa's real." I think children naturally see wonder all around them, even in ordinary things. KWIM?


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree NoraB.

I think that there is a big difference between encouraging imagination and outright telling a child something.

And yes, if my child was thinking that fairies were going to show up at our home and leave her candy and presents, I would remind her that they were not real. As it is, they more flit around the dollhouse and patio and while I am sure she imagines things quite vividly, they are obviously imagined. When we play these types of things together, it is a matter of her and me adding on to what each other says, to make a kind of collective imagining of what is going on (which is obviously imagined, I mean, come on guys, kids know the difference even if in a different way from how we do). This is a very different thing from me teaching her about Santa and even covertly doing things to reinforce what I have taught her. I do not covertly go onto the patio and move things so that it seems fairies have been there - do any of you?


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

nikirj & NoraB, that's exactly what I meant. No, I'm not extremely literal, but otoh I would never hide dd's stuff and tell her Swiper stole it.

I am very interested in teaching her the holiday myths and traditions of other cultures.

I am comfortable with my decision. I feel honesty is very important in my relationship with dd. I also agree that not a lot of my peers are offended or damaged by having been lied to by their parents. However, not many of them are introspective to the point where they've examined this. And again, my goal is to try harder than just not offending or damaging my kid. I don't believe it's harmless.

Jen


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I feel like some people on here need to lighten up a little bit:LOL
I agree, it's horrible to manipulate a child to behave so he won't go to hell or so Santa will leave him presents or whatever. That's not what we do.
And we actually do believe in earth spirits, such as fairies.
If my child asked me, "Mommy, please tell me, is Santa REAL?" I would absolutely tell her the truth. But I'm not going to ruin all of our fun, either, squelching her imagination and her joy by reminding her it's all a big sham








Oh... and myself as well as my friends are very introspective and self-analytical. It hasn't damaged any of us, and those of us that aren't Jewish and celebrate Christmas carry on the wonderful traditions of our childhoods


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't think anyone here is telling their children about Santa to manipulate them into behaving in a certain way. Just because some people may have used the Santa story in that way doesn't mean it's wrong to play along with the Santa thing.

And as for the "faking" stuff....I disagree that an "untruth" is automatically a LIE. Other posters have said it better. It's about encouraging imagination.

What, when you're having a tea party with your DD and her dolls, are you supposed to stand up and announce "I HOPE EVERYBODY HERE REALIZES THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY *NO TEA* IN THESE TEACUPS!!!"


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*

What, when you're having a tea party with your DD and her dolls, are you supposed to stand up and announce "I HOPE EVERYBODY HERE REALIZES THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY NO TEA IN THESE TEACUPS!!!"








*
Great, I had a whole reply written out, and lost it. Backtracked by accident.

Anyway...

No, I wouldn't say anything of the sort. If we were playing tea we'd pretend together. But the key here is that it originates with her mind - she decides there is tea there and I play along. With Santa, I decide to tell her a story about Santa and get her to believe it is true - this isn't about imagination folks, we aren't asking them to imagine anything. We are providing them the material and asking for their faith and belief - important concepts, but not at all the same as imagination. It is a very different thing, I think.

I would never point to a bush and try to convince my daughter I'd just seen fairies (unless perhaps I actually beleived I had). But I'd certainly make up stories about them if she decided to talk about fairies in the bushes. The difference is that it is 100% initiated by her, and 100% reliant on her imaginings, not on me. I explained it better on the one I lost







: but all I'm really trying to say is that I rely on her imagination as a source of our pretend play. Other families may do more prompting, and that is fine, and maybe for them Santa isn't a big stretch - but for us, it is, and that is why we don't 'do' Santa the same way other families do. I have no problem with families who do the whole Santa thing as long as they've given a little thought to the matter (and aren't just blackmailing), but we have though about it and come out on the other side things. And I also think that this is not a big issue taken in the life-long view.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

What, when you're having a tea party with your DD and her dolls, are you supposed to stand up and announce "I HOPE EVERYBODY HERE REALIZES THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY NO TEA IN THESE TEACUPS!!!"
laughing out loud here.. thank you
















Quote:

many children of my mother's era (68+) in germany were told all about Santa, his helpers, and the bag on his back - and it wasn't full of gifts -- it was full of the bad kids. So if you were bad during the year - Santa and his helper came and kidnapped you from your family so that you were never seen again. A nice little lie to keep kids 'under control'. ( sort of like the hell thing ) So today parents try to keep kids under control by telling them they'll get nothing. Isn't controlling and lying behaviour exactly what we don't want to teach? So is it OK to 'pretend' Santa and thereby only 'pretend' to control?
First of all.. I am Christian. The majority of "santa believers" are Christian. I don't know of one Christian adult parent that doesn't believe that Hell is real. I'm sure that the majority of Christians, however, admit wholeheartedly that Santa is, infact, a fictitious character created for the enjoyment of a child's imagination. Comparing Hell to Santa Claus is one of the dumbest things I've read on-line. I could elaborate but I won't even "go there" in this thread..

when I first read your post I was angry.. angry that the word "santa" has been linked to something so incredibly sad and disheartening. I felt an immediate need to rush in and defend Santa's honor







... repair any damage done to his reputation lol.. A call from my midwife and friend was perfect timing.. She is from Germany and put me at ease by claiming to have never heard of such a rediculous story.. Her parents, in their 80's, still live in Germany and she assured me that they had never heard the story either.. so maybe your mother was one of few who were told such a terrible "lie".. let's hope. (I didn't know until tonight that she has never done the "santa thing" with her youngest son.. She did with her other children but her youngest was born much later in life ..in her 40's.. and with all the other kids out of the house Santa just somehow didn't become part of the holidays.. She doesn't regret it or feel that he in some way missed out on something...but she remembers it being "something special" for her other children. She did however teach her son to respect that the majority of families do "believe" in santa)

Santa Claus wasn't created as a means to control young children. If parents are grasping for a means to help "control" their ill behaved children and use santa as a means.. well.. that is their prerogative. It doesn't mean the rest of us are being "harmful" by delighting, along with our children, in the wonderful tradition of Good Ole Saint Nick. You can see santa as you choose too... the same way you see "the hell thing".

If a parent thinks that allowing a child to believe in santa claus or the toothfairy etc is "harmful" then they should by all means live by that. That's fine.. But for the life of me.. .. I can not comprehend this idea that a parent must be totally honest with their young children..and that those who aren't are damaging them in some way. My opinion.. but it seems obsurd.

I am so glad that my mother and father gave me santa claus, the tooth fairy, angels, etc.. for allowed me to actually think that I REALLY could dig my way to China that summer I spent next to our house with a little shovel and a big dream to see the other side of the world







.. I am grateful to them both for allowing me to think that I just might have the ability to fly ..and I'm also thankful I decided to use our picnic table as my test pad lol (not too far to fall lol) .. I am thankful that my mother instilled in me a strong belief in God..so that, even though I could not see him, I knew He was right there beside me when I got lost in the fields behind our house one night. It was so comforting to believe that I was not alone...and that maybe a little angel or two had a watch on me as well. That "lie", I'm sure, helped to prevent a panic and kept me calm enough to use my "free thinking" mind to find my way back home. I remember telling my mother about the "little people" who lived in the house I made in my sand box and she told me how lucky I was to have found them .. and how she wished she could see them too. When Elvis died and I saw my mother crying.. I am glad that she lied when I questioned her regarding his death.. .... Telling me that he killed himself with a drug overdose would have been a lot for a young, free thinking mind to deal with. And when my beloved dog disappeared one day she hugged me and said that he had died peacefully in his sleep of old age.. something that I was able to understand and deal with.. I learned years later that he had been attacked and killed by 2 other dogs. .. Bless my mother for protecting me from the truth when she knew that it would be of no positive use to me.

I feel very strongly about NOT being completely honest with my sons. There are WAY too many facts of this world that their "free thinking" minds do not need to know right now. Am I sheltering them from reality? You bet your reindeer I am







Am I teaching them to lie? Well. I guess I am .. But you see, I believe that my son's will be intelligent enough and have the sense to know that someone who tell's their children that santa is "real" can still be a truthful, honest human being. This whole claim that "lieing" about Santa teaches and encourages a child to be dishonest is just bizarre imo. There are times in life when the truth is neither helpful nor appropriate. My 93 year old grandmother called today. When she asked me how we were doing I could have been honest and told her that Taylor's fever has been difficult to get down and that Caden still has flu symptoms.. but why give her reason to worry? I lied and told her that all was well in our home and she went to bed with happy thoughts. The truth would have served no useful purpose...and the lie not only did no damage.. but, infact, prevented harm. I know some say "well.. a lie is a lie".. but I disagree...obviously

I thought twice about replying to this thread again. I do respect those who believe/parent differently. I don't often feel a strong need to participate in on-line debates. I never expect to change someone's mind.. nor do I often care to. Sometimes I read something and just have to sit back and shake my head ..and that's about it.. Other times I read.. and then feel compelled to share my view/opinion.. even though I know it may offend someone. Frankly I'm tired.. I'm sick.. my kids are sick.. and I felt like typing tonight









and I just hope santa isn't looking in his magic snow ball right now .. you know, the one given to him by the Winter Worlock when Santa gave him a toy train.. The gift that melted his frozen heart







Santa would be sitting back and shaking his head









Happy New Year









oh..and I don't have time to proof so forgive typos as I'm sure they are plentiful


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Nicole's post made me think of something....

I'm guessing that one doesn't have to bring up the whole Santa story out of the blue, as if it were fact. I'm guessing most kids at some point will ask who Santa is. I might tell them, with a smile on my face, the story of Santa. I'm also willing to bet that, at a certain young age, they'll just accept it.

However, I'm also willing to bet that, as they get a bit older, they are going to start asking questions. If my child honestly looked me in the face and said "Mama, is Santa Claus real?"...well, I might answer with "well, he's real to some people. to others he represents the spirit of christmas..." etc. I would not answer an honest question like that with a deliberate lie.

I think parents can make a distinction between a Story and something you are trying to get them to believe. I don't think kids need much prompting to believe in fairy tales, etc.

So that's how *I* distinguish between stories, fairy tales if you will, and fact.

btw: I don't think *anyone* who wishes to ditch the Santa thing is doing anything wrong! I just don't think you are necessarily doing them harm by "going with it" for a while...


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## VitaminMom (Jun 18, 2003)

Thank you freespirtmom!

Anyone who is teaching that santa is not real is ok. Doing what you beileive in your heart is the right thing to do, is the right thing to do for you. You need to be true to yourself.

Believing in Santa, tooth fairy or any other mythical creature can be an enjoyable part of childhood. When a child is ready to debunk the myth, they will approach you and won't accept the truth until they are ready for it.

My husband and I both have memories of trying to debunk Santa as a child, trying to catch our parents after hearing at school that there is no such thing as Santa Clause. Upon confronting our parents, that's when we were told the truth, discussed the meaning of christmas, annoymous gifts, and even learned to give Santa gifts to our parents. That's when we were ready.

There is a time for telling the whole truth to children and a time for not telling the whole truth.

Would you tell your DD or DS what an abductor would do to them? Or course not! There is a time for a partial lie, or not the whole truth.

Ok, I sidetracked, Getting back to the original question of dealing with in-laws that celebrate things differently. YOu need to explain to your in-laws your beliefs and stand by them. Explain to your children that people have different beliefs, and they may hurt their grandma's feelings if they don't acknowledge them.

My grilfriend who is Jewish, had her in-laws sing happy B-Day to Jesus with a cake on Christmas, her children were 2 and 4. THey were so excited to celebrate a surprise birthday party. They were being raised Jewish.


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## Mrs. Edwards (Nov 14, 2003)

Forgive me for not reading everyone elses posts.

My husband and I are both Christians. We know what the real meaning of Christmas is, but our families also practice Santa.

I have no problems with this. I enjoyed it as a little girl. My DH on the other hand thinks that we're setting our daughter up to think her whole life is a lie if/when she finds out Santa isn't real. :LOL He says to me, "What's the one thing you know is going to happen when you are a kid? That Santa is going to come to your house on Christmas Eve and leave you presents." Of course he's also freaked about telling her some strange man is going to come down the chimney and be in her house and eat her cookies and milk. Anyway, a few days before Christmas we talked about this again. He said he doesn't feel comfortable pushing the idea of Santa but the spirit of Santa. Which I agree with and we both agree that they are two different things. I've been thinking about it a lot and to me, Santa has become in some way a tangible idea of what Christmas is about....generousity, kindness, etc. I totally have supported what he's said simply because it makes sense to me. Genevieve will grow up knowing the spirit of Santa but we're not going to be so much focused on Santa himself. Does that make sense?

Kaylee


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

He said he doesn't feel comfortable pushing the idea of Santa but the spirit of Santa. Which I agree with and we both agree that they are two different things. I've been thinking about it a lot and to me, Santa has become in some way a tangible idea of what Christmas is about....generousity, kindness, etc. I totally have supported what he's said simply because it makes sense to me. Genevieve will grow up knowing the spirit of Santa but we're not going to be so much focused on Santa himself. Does that make sense?
This is similar to what we've settled on. I think you can espouse christmas without the lie part. For me, trying to convince dd that santa is real kind of trivializes what we think the meaning of christmas is. For some people, that seems to be the big red guy with the gear, and that's ok for them I guess. To each their own then.

I'm not 100% truthful all the time, and I do think there are times when it is necessary to soft peddle things in order to protect a child. I don't see how that applies to santa though...what's the motivation there? From what I've been reading, it's fun.

I remember figuring out there was no santa years before my mom told me. When I did know, I looked at all the trouble they went to and all the gifts under the tree and wished they hadn't gone to such lengths. I just wanted to be with my family, on a day when everyone was so happy...I think that's what I want to bring from my childhood.

Jen


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

Quote:

The truth would have served no useful purpose...and the lie not only did no damage.. but, infact, prevented harm. I know some say "well.. a lie is a lie".. but I disagree...obviously
I think there is a huge difference between holding back information and outright lying. I still see outright lying as wrong. Though, perhaps in some situations (I'm thinking of that movie Life is Beautiful) it might be less wrong than the harm done by thr truth. However, I think that each situation where one might think that a lie would be better should be very, very carefully analyzed. I'd have to ask myself, why am I really lying? For my comfort or the other person's? Is there any other way to deal w/ this situation w/o being either hurtful or dishonest? For example, if I got a sweater that I thought was ugly beyond all reasoning, but my loving aunt knitted it w/ her arthritic hands, would I bust out and say "That's the ugliest sweater I've ever seen!" Heck no! I wouldn't lie and gush and say how beautiful it was and how much I'd wear it either. I'd probably say something like, "Oh thank you so much! I can see how much love you put into it. I will really treasure it." All of that would be absolutely true.

When somebody asks me how I am, I don't tell them all my woes either. That's not lying. Some information is on a need-to-know basis. Now, if somebody came right out and asked me a specific question (about my family's health, for example), I'd be truthful. Perhaps I wouldn't go into detail, but I wouldn't lie and say we were all out running marathons if we weren't.

When we lie to "protect" somebody else, I think it's very easy to slip into the waters of disrespect. Assuming somebody can't handle the truth is a big assumption. It says a lot about what you think about a person.

Also, I hate the idea of demonstrating a dishonest pattern to my children. How are they supposed to understand that they must be totally honest w/ me when they see that I am not totally honest w/ them or anybody else? If my child was involved in a dangerous situation but lied to me about it b/c he or she'd convinced him/herself that it would be better for _me_ to hear a lie, that could have some serious ramifications. I just don't like the precedent it sets. KWIM? Besides that, I think it can be very difficult for a child to understand why it's "okay" to lie in one situation (to spare somebody's feelings, for example) but it's _not_ okay to lie in others (to protect oneself from punishment or responsibility, for example).


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

But the key here is that it originates with her mind - she decides there is tea there and I play along. With Santa, I decide to tell her a story about Santa and get her to believe it is true - this isn't about imagination folks, we aren't asking them to imagine anything. We are providing them the material and asking for their faith and belief - important concepts, but not at all the same as imagination.
And, again...... my response to this is.......

Quote:

If she believes Santa is real because she sees him every year in the mall, for example, and because she hears about him at Christmastime..... wouldn't it be "playing along" to go along with her fantasy play? Or do you say, well, I'll let her pretend that the fairies are real, because they're not commercialized, but I'll tell her the truth about Santa because otherwise I'd be lying


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Hey NoraB, great post. I think it would have been helpful to agree on a definition prior to the debate, but I didn't think of it. I had no idea there would be so many interpretations of what it means to lie.

Perhaps a "Reasons it's ok to lie to your kids" thread?

Jen


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

Besides that, I think it can be very difficult for a child to understand why it's "okay" to lie in one situation (to spare somebody's feelings, for example) but it's not okay to lie in others (to protect oneself from punishment or responsibility, for example).
like I stated before... I believe my children have the common sense to know the difference. My older children are very honest and do not lie to get out of trouble (they don't have to as they rarely get in "trouble") ... I feel certain that my younger will follow in their steps as well.. I give my children more credit because I feel strongly that I have taught them right from wrong.. despite allowing them to believe in Santa, toothfairy etc..despite not being totally honest.

Quote:

When we lie to "protect" somebody else, I think it's very easy to slip into the waters of disrespect. Assuming somebody can't handle the truth is a big assumption. It says a lot about what you think about a person.
imo..you are wrong.. For me ...it isn't about making an assumption as to whether or not the person can "handle" the truth.. It is often about whether or not the person "needs" the truth. Frankly, I don't feel compelled to tell someone the truth just because they ask me for it.. I think that's rediculous. Not telling the truth doesn't necessarily mean having to lie... but if someone asks me how I am and I am truly not feeling "fine".. I am more likely to say "I'm fine"... because (1) my problems are not their business (2) I doubt they truly want to hear "actually I'm feeling like crap and my life sucks right now" lol and (3) I think it would be inappropriate to say "Well.. I should tell you that I'm fine but I don't ever lie to people so I will have to be honest and say that I'm frankly not doing well" ... I'm sure the other person would appreciate my honesty







:

anyway... I do get your point.. My parents "lied" to me about many things.. they often withheld parts of the truth as well.. and I have grown to be a truly honest person... just as my parents were... I interpret your reply as saying : if a person "lies" then they are not an honest person. I think there are times when a person should "lie".. I think there are many times when it is appropriate and necessary..and to say that someone is not an "honest" person and will breed dishonest children because they do not tell the truth in every situation is an unfair judgement....

Quote:

Also, I hate the idea of demonstrating a dishonest pattern to my children.
I'm not sure what you mean by this... there is no "pattern".

Quote:

Besides that, I think it can be very difficult for a child to understand why it's "okay" to lie in one situation (to spare somebody's feelings, for example) but it's not okay to lie in others (to protect oneself from punishment or responsibility, for example).
I give my kids more credit than this... My children have learned the difference without difficulty....just as I did as a child.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

A lie, like words themselves, is not black and white, and is not easily identifyable. There are a million ways to be truthfully "literal" and lie at the same time (i.e. the Bush administration) and visa versa.

Anyway, the "logic" of telling kids there is a santa clause may be flawed, but I'm not raising my kids based on logic alone, but also on instinct. I instinctively know that santa clause is beneficial fun and won't confuse my kids about honestly or reality, just as it didn't confuse me.

And I completely agree that chidlren are much smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. They understand the nuances of "lie" and "truth" and are ready, at a young age, to grapple sucessfully with the complexity of these concepts.

Being a truthful, honest person is a difficult and complex thing, and it has only tangentally to do with never telling a "literal" lie. How much more easy it would be if truth was so clear.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Have we gotten a bit off topic? The original thread was this:

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*We don't do Santa. My son is almost 3 and my daughter is 1. We are celebrating the Christian reasons for Christmas not Santa claus (complete with a birthday cake for Jesus). My inlaws are not Christians and GMIL is REALLY into Santa. She actually went and stood in line at the mall to get my kids little Santa hats and notepads that say my letter to Santa. I have told her repeatedly that we DO NOT DO SANTA. We will be going down for Christmas, well on Boxing day, for 4 days and doing a present exchange. I just know she is going to push the whole Santa thing again and probably put a present under the tree from Santa. I won't just play along because I am very opposed to this. So what should I do? I don't want to upset her but if there is presents from Santa under the tree I will probbaly say right out loud to DS oh someone is being funny pretending that Santa is real, but we know he's not. I don't mean to hurt her feelings but I have made MY feelings perfectly clear.*
She was not debating whether or not to do Santa (sounds like they've made their decision) but how to go about it when OTHER PEOPLE go against that decision. I think we all agree on the fact that as parents we should be allowed to parent our own children the way we see fit, believe, etc.

I know sometimes when I've come into a topic late, by the time I read all the posts I had forgotten the original post.


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## VitaminMom (Jun 18, 2003)

Ok the sweater and the present thing: To deal with presents that my children recieved from arthritic aunts I have drilled them with two simple words," Thank You," Not a Lie, Not the whole truth either. The gift may not be what they wanted.

"What do you say if you don't like it?" "thank you"
"What do you say if you have another one at home." "thank You"
"What do you say if your sister has one?" "Thank You"

I don't believe children under the age of 8-9 have the ability to tell when a lie is a good thing and when the lie is a bad thing. They need to be truthful all the time.

As far as protecting someone, that doesn't happen until an older age, when the child is now thinking of the people in their family and how they socialize with the people in their community. Which usually starts at thier pre-teen years, I would have to check my sociology books.

Santa, is a lie designed to teach the spirit of christmas, a tool, like stories and games, that promote the idea of giving in an easy to understand way. The tools are there to use as you will. Did you ever hear, "If you don't believe in Santa, he may not come to your house?"

An example of children knowing more than adults think, This evening at a christmas party my 2nd cousin had a laser light on his key chain. He was shining it on the floor and the kids were running, screaming and chasing it all over the room. My 3year old, when asked by her confused grandma, "Where is that red light coming from?" Replied, "Cousin Andy's Key chain." Then continued to chase it around the room.

She knew more than the adults thought. She knew the game and was going to play along simply because it was fun.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

A lie, like words themselves, is not black and white, and is not easily identifyable. There are a million ways to be truthfully "literal" and lie at the same time (i.e. the Bush administration) and visa versa.

Anyway, the "logic" of telling kids there is a santa clause may be flawed, but I'm not raising my kids based on logic alone, but also on instinct. I instinctively know that santa clause is beneficial fun and won't confuse my kids about honestly or reality, just as it didn't confuse me.

And I completely agree that chidlren are much smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. They understand the nuances of "lie" and "truth" and are ready, at a young age, to grapple sucessfully with the complexity of these concepts.

Being a truthful, honest person is a difficult and complex thing, and it has only tangentally to do with never telling a "literal" lie. How much more easy it would be if truth was so clear.








Very well said. Why didn't I say that?









Quote:

Have we gotten a bit off topic?
I don't think we are totally off topic.. Some of the replys to this thread were clear in their meaning: That allowing Santa Claus to be a "real" part of our children's Christmas celebration is harmful since it involves a "lie"... So I think the interesting debate sparked from the original post ..regarding lies to our children and it's overall effect on them.. is still somewhat on topic.

And besides.. this often happens in threads that receive numerous replies.. It can be interesting and educational.. depending on how you look at it.


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## LovAttach (Jan 2, 2002)

The santa thing really bugs me it's all a lie based upon St. Nicholas which St. Nicholas's feast day is the begining of Dec. not on the 25th. Anyways it's a bunch aof crap and people always try and give us stuff with Santas on it. That goes to good will!!!! My whole family knows we don't do it and they have respected that!!!! My mom even got books for the kids about St. Nick and the history which is nice. WE don't do tooth fairy either. One day your kids get older and figure out that we ahve been lying for years that terrible!! The Easter thing with the eggs a whole differnt story I told my mil we don't do it and she had the kids dying eggs now the kids aren't left alone with her but she has mentally issues I can't get into to long to list.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, LovAttach. Maybe I'm not getting the full picture here, but your post just made me feel sad. I well remember putting my tooth under my pillow and waiting for the "tooth fairy". Of course I knew it was my parents, but since I didn't see it, there was an air of "magic" about it, waking up and finding the coin under my pillow. Wow, I have such nice memories of that. I'm glad my parents did that for me! They also did Easter Egg hunts, which were so much fun! I sure never felt that they lied to me! I mean, it's not like they insisted these things were real, they just kind of went along with the fantasy, you know?


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I've noticed a theme in this thread, which is that many of us are doing what our parents did for (or to?) us! I know *I* am -- not promoting Santa or pretending to believe in him, but not forbiding him either. We go along with the fun of the season, but do not make Santa a central part of it.

Many (most?) of those who *do* "do Santa" seem to have happy memories of their own childhoods and how Santa was involved. (I guess many of the strictly "NO SANTA" moms haven't revealed what their own parents did or how they felt about it, so maybe my observation doesn't hold up, but for the other categories it's interesting.) There have been a few "non-Santa" folks who have said they felt lied to by their parents about Santa, but I would be curious to know if there were other issues of honesty in the relationship outside of Santa, or the tooth fairy, or things like that.

Just an observation!


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

she has mentally issues I can't get into to long to list.
Oh yeah... dying easter eggs with the kiddos ? She's definitely a taco shy of a combination plate..







:

Quote:

Anyways it's a bunch aof crap and people always try and give us stuff with Santas on it. That goes to good will!!!!
OH My Gosh.. you mean people GIVE your children presents that actually have Santa on them!!?? That is horrible!!! I would be outraged. I'm surprised your goodwill would even accept them.. ... uhm.. .WOW







:

Hey.. piglet68. do not digress. I think you do get the "full picture".. we are both very fortunate to see it. Even most who don't "do santa" still see the picture . They may not include the "real" santa in their holidays but the spirit of Christmas seems to be alive and well in the majority of posters here.

~Sherrie

edited to change wording... to make more sense


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

Quote:

Wow, LovAttach. Maybe I'm not getting the full picture here, but your post just made me feel sad. I well remember putting my tooth under my pillow and waiting for the "tooth fairy". Of course I knew it was my parents, but since I didn't see it, there was an air of "magic" about it, waking up and finding the coin under my pillow. Wow, I have such nice memories of that. I'm glad my parents did that for me! They also did Easter Egg hunts, which were so much fun! I sure never felt that they lied to me! I mean, it's not like they insisted these things were real, they just kind of went along with the fantasy, you know?
Yeah. It's so tragic. I know I'm really depriving my children by not raising them w/ the ideas of the Tooth Fairy and Santa. I just enjoy wiping out all the magic of childhood.

I apologize for the sarcasm, but I hate the argument that, by not doing Santa or the Tooth Fairy, I'm somehow depriving my kids of an important aspect of their childhoods. It seems to me that kids can experience a lot of "magic" in their childhoods w/o having the contrived experience of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, etc. Most kids are absolutely bursting w/ imagination. They don't _need_ Santa and company. If you decide to do it, fine. But why bash those that don't?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't think it is "depriving their kids of an important aspect of childhood" to not do Santa. I well understand why some people don't want to do Santa or the Easter bunny and I totally respect that.

It's just that LovAttach sounded so angry. Like the whole business was just aggravating to her. That is what I found sad, because of all my happy memories of those things. Maybe I read the post wrong, but I just got the feeling that there was a lot of unhappiness surrounding that issue for the poster and it had become one of those rotten experiences that you swear you will "never do to my kids!!". THAT is what I found sad.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I think there is a difference between encouraging/playing along with imagination and purposely doing things to make the child believe that the imagined circumstance is in fact real.

If I am playing tea party with dd and she pretends there is tea in the cup, I don't have to tell her the tea is pretend since she can obviously see that there is no tea in the cup, the cup is empty. She is pretending, and she knows she is pretending, which is good imagination. I am encouraging imagination in a good way if I drink the "tea" and play along "Oh this tea is so yummy" Or, if SHE puts water in the cup and pretends it is tea, that is good as well, SHE put the water in and SHE is doing the pretending. However if I, sneak water in the cup and tell her it is tea, that is wrong. It is deceptive. That is not encouraging imagination, it is simply deceptive.

Likewise if my dd pretends there are fairies in the bushes, she knows it is pretend since she knows she didn't really see any faries. I may make up stories with her about the fairies or play along with her. "What does the queen fairy look like?" However, SHE knows she never saw any fairies and she KNOWS it is pretend. However if I tell her that I saw fairies, I tell her that the ant hills are really homes for the fairies and not the ants and if I make little "fairy footprints" in the yard, I feel that is deceptive. It is not encouraging imagination, it is deceptive.

There is difference between playing along with imagination and fudging empirical evidence to prove that something exists.

It is certainly okay to imagine that a guy named Santa rides around with reindeer and delivers presents. I may encourage her in that story and tell ask her what Santa looks like, what kind of toys does her bring for different people. However, if I do things to fudge empirical evidence for the existence of Santa, like put presents under the tree and tell her Santa brought them or encourage her to leave cookies and milk out for Santa and then dh and I eat them ourselves or make reindeer tracks in the yard. Those things are deceptive.

I think children are learning how to distinguish between reality and fantasy and one way they do that is using their 5 senses. They are learning cause and effect and and how things they see and experience can tell them facts about their world. DD knows the tea in the cup is pretend since she can't see or taste any tea. Or she may know it is just water since she filled the cup up from the faucet. DD knows there aren't fairies in the bushes since she didn't see any fairies and doesn't see any evidence of fairy things. She knows it is just a story and fun to pretend. However when *I* the parent do things to decieve her into thinking the fantasy is reality, I think that can be confusing.

I also would want dd to be able to look to her parents for the truth and know that her parents will tell her the truth. We may play along with her at HER games, but they are HER games, and she knows that SHE is doing the pretending and the imagination.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LovAttach_
*The santa thing really bugs me it's all a lie based upon St. Nicholas which St. Nicholas's feast day is the begining of Dec. not on the 25th. Anyways it's a bunch aof crap and people always try and give us stuff with Santas on it. That goes to good will!!!!*
and I suspect your children will be telling this same story to a therapist at 35 years old...but I could be wrong









It is one thing to *hate all things Santa*, but another thing entirely to model ungrateful, hostile behavior to our children.

I think it is fine if you don't want to do Santa in your house--I understand why. If Grandma wants to give your kids something with Santa on it or a gift from him, then why not just say "Grandma just likes to play pretend about Santa--she thinks it is fun" and leave it at that? Why attach all of this anger and emotional baggage to it?

I don't understand why people go looking for evil when there is enough of that in the world already. It seems that people are looking to demonize even kindhearted behaviors--like there is an evil grandma lurking around every corner waiting to give your child a 19.99 plastic toy from Target covered in hideous images of the man in red. Then when she gets your child all hopped up on candy canes she will start plotting her clandestine egg dyeing activities while feeding your child...gasp...Marshmallow Peeps









Life can be so sweet and uncomplicated if you only let it.

(edited for spelling errors--I have not had my coffee yet today)


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

As far as the Santa issue goes, I'm so glad to know people are grappling with that one too. I do not believe in Santa and was raised not to believe in Santa either. However, we *did* do the Tooth Fairy, and when I found out that this deception had gone on -- a deception in which I sincerely and truly believed -- I was so crushed. The "magic" really did go out of my world then, and I remember feeling betrayed at the time. I realize my mother meant no harm at all, and in fact meant to create a sense of magic and wonder, but I think it backfired, at least with me. She meant no harm, but at the same time, I want to learn from the event.

I told my dd that Santa is a symbol of the generosity people show at Christmas, and that lots of people -- including parents -- "play Santa" by giving gifts to other people out of love. Because I'm not sure that she'd keep the "Santa isn't real" knowledge to herself, and because I don't want her to be That Kid Who Spills the Beans, I was less direct with her than I usually am. Normally, I'd say that Santa was just pretend.

The point is, I don't want to lie to her. I agree with the above posters who said that their kids know that fairies aren't real, but like to pretend they are. That's fine -- they have not been lied to; no intentional, knowing deceit has occurred. They're just having fun.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

Yeah. It's so tragic. I know I'm really depriving my children by not raising them w/ the ideas of the Tooth Fairy and Santa. I just enjoy wiping out all the magic of childhood.

I apologize for the sarcasm, but I hate the argument that, by not doing Santa or the Tooth Fairy, I'm somehow depriving my kids of an important aspect of their childhoods. It seems to me that kids can experience a lot of "magic" in their childhoods w/o having the contrived experience of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, etc. Most kids are absolutely bursting w/ imagination. They don't need Santa and company. If you decide to do it, fine. But why bash those that don't?
It's unfortunate that you feel you are being bashed.. I haven't read one reply to this thread that said a parent is depriving their children by not doing "santa" and the "toothfairy" .. Of course they don't need them. I think we all know that.. But most of us would also agree that growing up with them didn't harm us in any way... On the contrary.. left us with warm memories and happy thoughts.

~Sherrie


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I have not posted to this before, but I just want to say that I understood Heavenly's OP and I also understood how the thread became a"debate". It was shortly before Christmas and it is an interesting topic. I wish I was as articulate as Freespiritmom and Piglet, as I see myself in their posts.
I will say...I was a therapist for 12 years and not once did a client present issues around "my mom told me there is a Santa" OR "my mom played the tooth fairy when I lost a tooth". Maybe if she pretended to be the toothfairy while vacuming, but I digress. Nor did I ever talk to someone who resented not having Santa or fairies. But, we all do what is a part of us. And in my childhood, a little 'magic' and excitement helped me to feel safe and loved. But if my parents had done otherwise and told me why, and I knew it was out of love, then I would have felt secure in that.


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## freespiritmom (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:

It is one thing to *hate all things Santa*, but another thing entirely to model ungrateful, hostile behavior to our children.
It is one thing to *hate all things Santa*, but another thing entirely to model ungrateful, hostile behavior to our children.

I think it is fine if you don't want to do Santa in your house--I understand why. If Grandma wants to give your kids something with Santa on it or a gift from him, then why not just say "Grandma just likes to play pretend about Santa--she thinks it is fun" and leave it at that? Why attach all of this anger and emotional baggage to it?

I don't understand why people go looking for evil when there is enough of that in the world already. It seems that people are looking to demonize even kindhearted behaviors--like there is an evil grandma lurking around every corner waiting to give your child a 19.99 plastic toy from Target covered in hideous images of the man in red. Then when she gets your child all hopped up on candy canes she will start plotting her clandestine egg dyeing activities while feeding your child...gasp...Marshmallow Peeps

Life can be so sweet and uncomplicated if you only let it.

What an wonderful post! Very well said!

Quote:

I have not posted to this before, but I just want to say that I understood Heavenly's OP and I also understood how the thread became a"debate". It was shortly before Christmas and it is an interesting topic. I wish I was as articulate as Freespiritmom and Piglet, as I see myself in their posts.

I will say...I was a therapist for 12 years and not once did a client present issues around "my mom told me there is a Santa" OR "my mom played the tooth fairy when I lost a tooth". Maybe if she pretended to be the toothfairy while vacuming, but I digress. Nor did I ever talk to someone who resented not having Santa or fairies. But, we all do what is a part of us. And in my childhood, a little 'magic' and excitement helped me to feel safe and loved. But if my parents had done otherwise and told me why, and I knew it was out of love, then I would have felt secure in that.
A wonderful, articulate reply also Joan ~ Thank you


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

My MIL brought up santa the other night while talking to Kailey, and I
answered for her, I said, " granny there is no such thing as santa. Stop lying to me." I said this in a lighthearted manner, and it led to how I feel about pretending that santa is a real person who comes to your house and drops off presents. It's just as much as a lie as telling your child thereare no more crackers when you put the container away when there really are more crackers. We avoid all lies, black, white or gray as much as possible with our child.


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