# What consequences do you use for teen?



## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

What do you do with your teen when they show disrespect or stay out past curfew, etc.? I always try to relate the consequences to the issue of concern, like if she stays out past curfew she loses car privileges, etc. but some things are difficult to relate directly to a consequence. One of the most common tools that I use is to restrict her online log-in access because the amount of time she spends online can usually be traced as the root cause of flippant disregard for others in the family, etc.

Yesterday I got creative and allowed her to work off part of her restriction by reading the first 10 pages of this book. We ended up having a really good discussion about materialism, consumerism, and wastefulness, which were exactly the issues that initiated the need to restrict her in the first place!

I'd love to know of other creative approaches ...


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## katebleu (Feb 4, 2005)

my dd is actually only 9 months, but when one of my younger brothers was suspended from school for getting a fight he had to write an essay on school violence for our mom. so based on how i was raised, i think your creative solution was great!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We use no consequences, other than the natural ones that occur, and sometimes that doesn't have a chance to happen either. (I have picked up something they left outside rather than letting it get stolen or ruined, etc)

We are pretty big on talking in our family. If something comes up that any one of us isn't comfortable with we discuss it, and we come to a place of agreement.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
We use no consequences, other than the natural ones that occur, and sometimes that doesn't have a chance to happen either. (I have picked up something they left outside rather than letting it get stolen or ruined, etc)

We are pretty big on talking in our family. If something comes up that any one of us isn't comfortable with we discuss it, and we come to a place of agreement.

Same here.

We don't set curfew for the members of our family, we just inform one another when we are going to be home. If for one reason or another the other family member wishes that this time is changed, we discuss it.

Disrespect towards one another would be hurtful to a reciever, so we usually don't do it. If it happens because somebody did not think about it, we talk and usually appology/explanation follows.

Those apply to me, DH, DS and DD


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

In response to my post, "What consequences do you use for teen?"

Quote:

*UnSchoolnma* posted:
We use no consequences,
Okayyyy, and that was relevant ... how? Perhaps you saw a chance to trumpet your no-consequences approach to parenting and just had to take it? I guess now I should thank you and Irinam for enlightening me about my erroneous consequence ways.









I'm still interested to know other approaches besides the non-approach.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

I just had to share this story, to give you MY parents view:

In 10th grade right before Christmas break I came home from a date with a hickey. The only one I've ever gotten. I was your typical straight A student, over acheiver who never really got into trouble. For my punishment my mom and dad signed me up to ring the Salvation Army bell to collect loose change for Christmas ar our MALL for 2 Saturdays. I was mortified. I know I was helping a good cause but I was so embarassed to have the hickey and stand in the middle of the mall ringing a giant red bell while attracting attention. I never misbehaved after that....that they know of.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
In response to my post, "What consequences do you use for teen?"

Okayyyy, and that was relevant ... how? Perhaps you saw a chance to trumpet your no-consequences approach to parenting and just had to take it? I guess now I should thank you and Irinam for enlightening me about my erroneous consequence ways.









Wow, that's really rude.

I was just adding my thoughts to the thread, and answering a question. I guess I thought you were asking a general "How does your family handle/do this?" to everyone here rather than only wanting responses that list consequences. I apologize if I misunderstood, but I really do not understand the reason behind your tone here. I did not post to try and "enlighten you about your erroneous consequence ways" at all.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
In response to my post, "What consequences do you use for teen?"

Okayyyy, and that was relevant ... how? Perhaps you saw a chance to trumpet your no-consequences approach to parenting and just had to take it? I guess now I should thank you and Irinam for enlightening me about my erroneous consequence ways.









I'm still interested to know other approaches besides the non-approach.










Wow. That's not defensive.







:

We don't have consequences, either. Nor do i have problems with my teens (16 & 13). Everyone loses their temper sometimes, kids and adults alike. Like Unschooma, we just talk it through. Kids do respond to respect.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Wow, that's really rude.

I was just adding my thoughts to the thread, and answering a question. I guess I thought you were asking a general "How does your family handle/do this?" to everyone here rather than only wanting responses that list consequences. I apologize if I misunderstood, but I really do not understand the reason behind your tone here. I did not post to try and "enlighten you about your erroneous consequence ways" at all.










Fwiw, I totally agree with your approach.

And further, it works.

My kids are older than yours, but so far they are wonderful to live with. We are a team, a family. I'll let you know when they end up in jail.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Sorry if you think I was being rude or defensive. I was just surprised, is all. It's analogous to someone posting a new thread with the topic, "What cloth diapers do you use?" and having replies saying, "We don't use cloth diapers. In our family we do EC," and then going on about the method for EC that their family is doing.

It's interesting and all .... It just doesn't help me with what I was asking about. But, you know, thanks for sharing the info!







:


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I am wondering how you expect your kids to be respectful if you do not model it yourself.

Just because you saw the replies as irrelevant, does not warrant the sarcasm


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Irina,
With all due respect, the act of calling something that someone else wrote 'sarcasm' and 'disrespectful' does not make it so.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Irina,
With all due respect, the act of calling something that someone else wrote 'sarcasm' and 'disrespectful' does not make it so.

Are you actually claiming that what you wrote wasn't sarcastic? Like, when you said, _" I guess now I should thank you and Irinam for enlightening me about my erroneous consequence ways."_, that was a serious statement?

Your first statement was "_What do you do with your teen when they show disrespect or stay out past curfew, etc.?",_ and you ended with, _"I'd love to know of other creative approaches ..."_ Then when people do what you asked, you get sarcastic and rude. I think you owe some people apologies.

FWIW, no punishment here, either (you're using the euphemism 'consequences'). We talk, I mention my needs, and we work things out. It keeps us from getting into an adversarial relationship. I think that during the teen years it's especially important for your child to see you as an ally, not an enemy.

Dar


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I really like the book idea.
I usually try to keep the consequences directly and obviously related to the "offence"
I pick my battles of course.
If she is making and receiving phone calls at midnight, her phone in her room goes away.
One time the "obvious" logical consequence really wasnt enough to communicate to her how deeply upset and serious the problem was (telling a 13 year old "I am deeply upset and this is very serious" just doesnt really do it in my home) she lost her 2 week girl scout camp.
This was a terrible punishment for both of us! And I really didnt want to do it , but I felt that that was the only tool I had to really get her attention. Unfortunately, it was like grounding her from Broccoli. Neither of us is happy. And she is being deprived of something really good for her. But it was the only thing important enough to her to matter.
Mostly we talk.
"Meghann, I am very upset by the way you spoke to me just now." (usually this causes a huff, a disappearing act, followed by a sincere apology 15 minutes later)
Sometimes when she is uncooperative. I am uncooperative. "we dont have time to go to the store right now because I Had to do your chores as well as mine"
As for blantant disrespectful speech, as much as I can I placidly ignore it.
It is really hard to think off the top of my head what might happen that would not involve some type of logical obvious consequence.
Joline


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Dar, UnSchoolnMa, and Irinam, I apologize. As a long-term participant on message boards I have learned not to take things personally and I am guilty of assuming that others have the same understanding.

I agree that talking with my teen is the number one way to deal with disagreements and difficulties that may arise. With my teen, who is older than many of yours and has begun the intense and often painful period of separating from family and home to begin her life as an adult, sometimes talking doesn't have the desired effect. While I prefer the term '_consequences_' because it implies natural effects of behavior, as opposed to '_punishment_' which to me implies a punitive act meant to cause discomfort to the child, I'm really not concerned with semantics.

The bond my daughter and I share is unbreakable, which is why she understands that having a privilege temporarily taken away is not a withdrawal of love or respect. She knows I love her unconditionally but that I also do my best to intervene as a means of guiding her when she occasionally lacks the maturity to make appropriate choices.

Quote:

*Joline* wrote:
"Meghann, I am very upset by the way you spoke to me just now." (usually this causes a huff, a disappearing act, followed by a sincere apology 15 minutes later)
Boy, does that ring a bell!


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## Miss Kitty (Jan 30, 2003)

WOW. Ok I would like to offer what we do in an effort to answer the original post.

My dd is nearly 16, special needs adoption, virtually no short-term memory, and ADD out the whazoo.

She has extremely poor impulse control but is really working on it but still gets in trouble.

Her first big violation was last fall when she was angry at a boy in her special ed class and spray painted his truck. Not once but twice. And lied, and lied and lied. To the police, to us, to the school etc. She nearly was arrested. It was absolutely horrible.

Finally 4 days after the second incident, about a week or 10 days all together she fessed up. All on her own with no prompting she had her father drive her to the boys house where she apologized and offered to pay the damages. She then apologized to the officers, the principal, and to us.
She didn't ask to go anywhere or to do anything for weeks afterward. One day she asked how long she was grounded for, I said we had never grounded her, she had paid the damages out of her bank account, apologized to all that were involved. She said she thought we wouldn't trust her again. My response was, I don't but I didn't ground you, you punished yourself by breaking my trust. Is that punishment enough?







All of this is meant to say, we try to get our dd to punish herself. Often it is with the fact that she knows right from wrong and is able to identify where she went wrong. In the long run that is what punishments are for.
The word discipline comes from the Latin word disciple which means to guide (contrary to some who believe the staff is to beat the sheep it was to guide the sheep). I learned that in a Foster parent class and when I'm needing to discipline my kids I try to think what will GUIDE them the way I need them to go.

Sorry this is so long. PS - the principal has called us more than once with similar problems for ideas on positive solutions. He is trying to be more positive in his approach than our last principal who just slammed the hammer down every chance he got.

Hope this helps a little.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Sorry if you think I was being rude or defensive. I was just surprised, is all. It's analogous to someone posting a new thread with the topic, "What cloth diapers do you use?" and having replies saying, "We don't use cloth diapers. In our family we do EC," and then going on about the method for EC that their family is doing.

It's interesting and all .... It just doesn't help me with what I was asking about. But, you know, thanks for sharing the info!







:


So you're asking for our thoughts on how to punish your teen? On an AP/GD list. And you are sarcastic and upset when we offer "creative' thinking.

I don't understand why there are *so many* non- GD people asking for advice on MDC when there are so many other uncreative and punitive sites devoted to teaching adults how to control children.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
In 10th grade right before Christmas break I came home from a date with a hickey. The only one I've ever gotten. I was your typical straight A student, over acheiver who never really got into trouble. For my punishment my mom and dad signed me up to ring the Salvation Army bell to collect loose change for Christmas ar our MALL for 2 Saturdays.

Curious (honestly wanting to know, not trying to be snarky based on the rest pf the thread): would you have been more likely to do it again if you had not been punished? Were you more likely to sneak around your parents than if you had NOT been punished?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I don't understand why there are *so many* non- GD people asking for advice on MDC when there are so many other uncreative and punitive sites devoted to teaching adults how to control children.

I dunno. But, as a GD parent I do like hearing about how people do things (I will someday have a teenager) so I really appreciate everyone's contributions! I will go back to







:


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## fire_lady (Aug 24, 2005)

My DS is only 2 yo so no experience with teens. But based on my observation with my mom. She actually talk to us(one on one) when were teens and did something wrong. She explains to us what we did and why they are not happy and what did they felt about it.She even ask us what do we think is right and actually asking if we need to be punished. Reversed psychology in short but it works instead we decided to punished our selves and felt very sorry about it.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I dunno. But, as a GD parent I do like hearing about how people do things (I will someday have a teenager) so I really appreciate everyone's contributions! I will go back to







:

I understand that.

So maybe my question should be 'Why do folks ask questions of MDC members and then get upset when they are given GD information?"

One can ask *anything*, of course. But to get upset, defensive and snarky when GD thoughts are offered? At MDC. I mean, what sort of answers would one expect from GD mothers of actual teens?


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

Generally, I think the action has its own set of consequences that turn out to be their own punishment. I do believe in restrictions though. We have talked about these issues a great deal. I have no qualms about taking away a privelege or to put up something he values so he can't have it. I would do this no matter what age as long as he lives in my home. To us, no action is the same as permission.


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## Mama Jewel (Jun 22, 2005)

I am loving the creative ideas here!








Our son just turned 16, and one thing we have learned these past few years (at least for him) is grounding does not work. Keeping him in the house just makes all of us miserable. He knows our rules, and when he breaks them, we withhold money and transportation. Not having spending money, or not being able to get somewhere, seems to go a lot further with him (really, it's just another form of grounding, but it seems to make more sense to him!). With him turning 16, and soon to have his own part-time job and workig towards his drivers license, we will probably be changing the rules again. We'll sit down with him and talk about it when the time comes.
Any way you look at it, communication is the key. Once you lose that, you've lost everything.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
... flippant disregard for others in the family, etc.


Could you give examples? It's hard to guess what instances you're talking about--if she borrowed something and failed to return it, I'd remind her. If she borrowed something and mistreated it, I'd expect it to be replaced. If she's staying out later than she thought she'd be, I'd explain that we needed a phone call so that we didn't worry---(just as *I* would call if I was going to be very late.)

We've always talked to our kids about treating others as they would want to be treated--I can't really see how talking could "work" when they're younger but fail when they're 18. I'd impress on her how her actions affect the rest of the family...say, she's using my car and doesn't return when she's expected, thereby making someone else in the family late. If explaining to her what the problem is didn't cause her to return on time, I'd probably not be inclined to loan her my car anymore. Basically, I'd treat her as an adult, with the same expectations I'd have of any other adult.

The whole punishment/consequence thing has been debated here elsewhere, but this is an 18 year old we're talking about, right?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I read your blog entry about your teen leaving the computer on all night. While I love the book you mention (we own it) , you do know the world is full of irony , right? for instance--

It took more energy and chemical dyes and silver to produce that book and distribute it around the world than your daughter's computer uses if left on overnight, esp if the screen goes blank after a certain amount to time of non-activity.

I am betting your anger at your daughter goes much deeper than you're asking about here.

I think you could maybe arrange with your daughter to shut down her computer at night, and you could turn it on for her (or whoever is awake first) in the morning so by the time she wakes, it's on.

I think there are ways to work these sorts of things out without punishment or shame. There is a way to read that book and discuss it's important issues as as a family without using the book in a negative way.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Please don't take what I'm posting here as anything but sincere.

UUMom, I thought I posted this on the "Teens" thread, not the GD thread, that is why I didn't expect this to turn into a GD discussion. Seriously, I didn't realize that GD was the expected or most common method for all discipline issues discussed on MDC (not being snarky or sarcastic; I'm honestly puzzled and somewhat contrite.) In fact, I am so new to much of this that I also didn't realize that consequences are against GD philosophy.

I do not have anger at my daughter, I was unhappy with her behavior. And your attempt to critique my parenting by bringing up my blog entry here and discussing it is hurtful. I have a comment section on my blog ...

As for using the book in a "negative way" I'm hard-pressed to understand how asking an 18-year old to read and discuss a book with me can be construed as negative. I certainly didn't force her; I offered it to her as a way of shortening the time she was restricted from online access. I also do not see how limiting online access is a 'punishment' or anything less than gentle guidance/ discipline. I saw it as a way of _redirecting_ her to a more constructive way to use her time and the household's energy consumption.

What I suggested to her is that she turn her computer off at night and then turn it back on in the morning before she steps in the shower and that way it will be up and ready for use when she is showered and ready to start her day. A simple solution, but she wasn't happy with it, which is why the next step was to let her experience a day without access so that perhaps 3 minutes waiting time for it to start up would not seem like such a hardship.

Again, I'm sincerely sorry that I inadvertently stepped into a hornet's nest by discussing a method other than GD on the Teen board. I'll know better next time.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Your blog is in your sig! If you don't want people to read it, why is it in your sig?? Of course, if it's against MDC rules to comment on a public blogs in sigs, then I will edit.

And as far as GD/Teen threads. Are you kidding?? This is MDC. We're not going to embrace punishment anymore than we are going to embrace crying it out--no matter where you post it.

You were repsectful, imo, of your 18 yr old daughter. You are trying to control her by shaming. If you post on a public board, on an AP/GD site-- no matter how old your child is , you're going to hear things you don't like if you are asking how to punish your child. Your 18 yr old child.

You realize this is MDC, yes?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

UUMom, While this is MDC, I see threads that discuss both EC and cloth diapers; both breastfeeding and formula feeding; both homebirths and hospital births ... why not various flavors of discipline? It's not like I posted about spanking my daughter. (Edited to add that I've seen threads on MDC about mamas spanking their child that received more compassionate responses than have been shown in this thread.)

As for my feelings toward my daughter, please do not speculate about that unless you know us personally. At the very least, do a search on the word "teenager" or "High School Graduate" on my blog and get a bit more information before judging.

I don't object, at all, to anyone here at MDC reading my blog; of course, that's why it's in my sig. What I object to is you dragging that story into this thread and making it seem as if it is all about that one incident. I was simply interested in seeing how other MDC mamas handle consequences with their teenager - honestly not knowing that MDC is anti-consequences. Now I know.









I don't want to keep beating this horse with you, UUmom. You have succeeded in convincing me that I made a mistake in posting this here, what more do you want? I'm sorry. I truly am.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
UUMom, While this is MDC, I see threads that discuss both EC and cloth diapers; both breastfeeding and formula feeding; both homebirths and hospital births ... why not various flavors of discipline? It's not like I posted about spanking my daughter.

As for my feelings toward my daughter, please do not speculate about that unless you know us personally. At the very least, do a search on the word "teenager" on my blog and get a bit more information before judging.

I don't object, at all, to anyone here at MDC reading my blog; of course, that's why it's in my sig. What I object to is you dragging that story into this thread and making it seem as if it is all about that one incident. I was simply interested in seeing how other MDC mama's handle consequences with their teenager - honestly not knowing that MDC is anti-consequences. Now I know.







I don't want to keep beating this horse with you, UUmom. You have succeeded in convincing me that I made a mistake in posting this here, what more do you want? I'm sorry. I truly am.


MDC doesnot advocate bottle feeding over breastfeeding. We do not advocate un-ncessary c-sections over empowered natural births. And as far as I know MDC does not advocate shaming children as punishment.

Are you sorry to have posted here because not everyone agrees with punishment? Or are you sorry you got some food for thought?

I have a 16 yr old and 13 yr old. I know what i am talking about. I am not living in la la land with perfect children who never challenge me.

I am not quite sure what you need at this point. The tone of this thread changed as soon as you became snarky to UnschoolMa's post, which was very nice, even if it wasn't what you were looking for.

Are you sorry you were snarky? I mean, seriously, what did you expect after that?

And nobody is anti- consequences (and again with the sarcastic thumbs up. What is that?). As someone at MDC said "consequences are when you go out in the rain you get wet". You were looking for punishment, which is just another word for 'consequence'. MDC stretches all of us to seek new ways of thinking about child respect. What is it? what does it look like in practice? Are there ways I can get my needs met (saving energy) in ways that do not shame my child? Are there ways I can 'reach' my child where we can both come away with our dignity intact?

If you blow us all off with "Now I know MDC kids let their children get away with murder so I won't bother posting anything anymore" it's no skin off us..me. But you'll be missing opportunities to think about children, discipline and respect in new ways.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

UUmom, what I'm sorry for is that I seem to have upset you. I feel badly about that.

Please .... the thumbsup was not being sarcastic.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joan*
The whole punishment/consequence thing has been debated here elsewhere, but this is an 18 year old we're talking about, right?

Oh my, I think I missed that this was about an 18 year old. That's a young woman IMO, and as Joan stated, I would be treating her like an adult for sure.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Jumping in here to say that if the 'leaving the computer on all night" is such a big issue to you (believe me, I'm the crunchiest person I know, but I won't be that freaked out about it) the easiest thing to do is to set the power settings so that after the computer is left on for X minutes without activity (30? 60?) it turns off by itself.

If it's a PC made in the last 3 years or so, you can set it to hibernate which freezes everything that was open exactly the way it was - so if she's in the middle of an e-mail when it falls asleep, when she turns on the computer in the morning, the e-mail will be right there on the screen, along with any other programs she had on when it turned off, and it also takes about 30 seconds to turn on instead of 3 minutes. but it is 100% off so no electricity used at night.

best of all, she doesn't have to remember to turn it off. Gee, I'm only 27 so I remember being 18 quite vividly and I used to fall asleep with the TV or computer or stereo on all the time. Have a sleep or hibernate setting takes care of that with no fuss.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Thanks for the suggestions on the specific example I used in my initial post. As you said, there are a number of simple solutions and, in our case, this small disagreement was resolved that same morning in a way that was satisfactory to all concerned. I was merely using it as an example in order to stimulate ideas from others about how they have used consequences (as Joan worded her post, 'not being inclined to lend a car' for example) with their teens, whether they be 13 or 19 years of age.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I don't understand why there are *so many* non- GD people asking for advice on MDC when there are so many other uncreative and punitive sites devoted to teaching adults how to control children.

I dont understand why there are *so many* non-consequence based GD moms who insist that those of us who practice GD with consequences are not GD.
I think this is just the place to find creative ideas regarding consequences. Those of us who practice GD with consequences have no more in common with the mainstream "beat the devil out of them" attitude than you do. And so we come here to share with each other.
There are some GD authors who are very anti punishment and anti logical consequences. However that is not the definition for GD for all of us.
Joline


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
UUmom, what I'm sorry for is that I seem to have upset you. I feel badly about that.

Please .... the thumbsup was not being sarcastic.


I am not upset. These discussions energize me more than anything. Plus, my kids love reading them.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I dont understand why there are *so many* non-consequence based GD moms who insist that those of us who practice GD with consequences are not GD.
I think this is just the place to find creative ideas regarding consequences. Those of us who practice GD with consequences have no more in common with the mainstream "beat the devil out of them" attitude than you do. And so we come here to share with each other.
There are some GD authors who are very anti punishment and anti logical consequences. However that is not the definition for GD for all of us.
Joline


By no stetch of the imagination is shaming children or punishing them GD in my book. I also see more and more than people are trying use the word 'consequences' when they really mean 'punish'.

I'







m never gonna buy those apples and oranges.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

"Not in your book"? You have hit the nail on the head here.

There are as many ideas about what GD is as there are authors who promote it and parents who practice it.

Your book is not the only book.

Some GD authors are againt all parent involved consequencs. SOme promote logical consequences (Anthony WOlf, removing the means of misbehavior for example). Some even use time out. (William Sears)
Even LLL defines Gentle Discipline in a way which suggests punishments not be overused or done lightly, however they have not defined GD to mean they must be excluded all together.
Everybody defines "punishment" and "consequences" differently.

Some might say William Sears is not GD. In my opinion Sears is often the first exposure to GD that some parents have. I for one would be hesitant to define in any way which excludes Dr Sears.

So again this leads us to teh question "What is GD?" which is followed by the
obvious question "Who decides?".

I say we all decide for ourselves within certain general perameters.

What is gentle for me and my family might not e gentle enough for you and yours.

And what is discipline in your family might not fit in mine.

That is OK. I do not attempt to suggest that your way (or anybody's way) on handling discipline is wrong, even though it does not fit my philosophies and my purpose as a parent.
I only hope for the same respect in return.

This forum is our common ground. THis is where we can bring our concerns that we do not bring to the general public.

If I asked my best friend about the best way to handle my daughter's mouthiness I would probably get a comment about how effective slapping her 8 year old's face has been in eliminating mouthiness.
If I asked my MIL how to deal with a toddler who bites she would tell me to bite himback.

I belong here because I choose GD for my family and I seek conversation with other GD families. And I will stand up and refuse to accept attempts to make GD exclusive to only one view of what it means.

You may not think that the way some of us do things is GD. And you have every right to think so. But that doesnt make it so. And it doesnt mean we dont belong here.

Joline

AP mama and I do GD Sears style (with a little Anthony Wolf for flavor)


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I am new to gentle discipline, though I am finding that much of it fits with my instincts as a parent. Last night I did some reading and, the gentle discipline material I've seen suggests that consequences can be used two ways: punitively, or as opportunities to teach. The difference lies in the _intent_ of the parent.

No one, on MDC or anywhere else, can claim to have the ability to discern the intent of another parent.

In the example that I used to start this post (and again, it was only meant as an example, not as a request for help with it), my intent was to use the consequence of limiting my daughter's access to my online log-in, by inviting her to read the first chapter of a book that I had been hoping she would read on her own but she has not been interested. By giving her that learning opportunity, it created the incentive she needed to read the book and, as a result, we had a very good discussion in which learning occurred, for both her and I.

Was I shaming my daughter by inviting her to read a book with me? My daugher and I have a long history of reading books together and discussion them. I did not stand her up in front of everyone in our family and say, "And now, teenager, you must read this book because you've been bad! Very bad!' It was nothing of the sort. It was between just the two of us; a casual offer of a choice whereby she could get what she wanted sooner, and I could get what I wanted, which was to share the book with her. Everyone wins.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

So are you saying shame and punishment are GD if people decide they are? I let my baby CIO, but I am still a respectful parent? I am still "AP' because I say I am?

ETA a question mark after 'respectful parent'.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

_"Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems. "_

That's Peggy O'Mara's description of effective, gentle discipline, and the one that these boards follow. I don't see punishment as fitting into this - how does that presume that children have reasons for their behaviors, and how does it engage their cooperation in problem solving? How does it nurture their spirits?

Dar


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Becky A. Bailey agrees with the punishment philosophy Dar described above. She writes, "A reward or punishment is based on adult's juding a child's behavior to be "good" or "bad," and then delivering good or bad to express that judgement. When adults rely regularly on rewards and punishments, children come to depend on the judgment of othrs as the basis for their own moral decisions. Rewards and punishments create "other-control".

She goes on, "_Many parents are surprised to learn that consequences can take forms other than rewards and punishments_."

She continues, "Consequences help children think about the effects of their choices and draw conclusions about the wisdom of those choices. This builds responsibility. Consequences can take the form of natural consequences, imposed consequences, or problem-solving. Children who experience these types of consequences develop their own inner compass for moral living. Loving guidance requires a shift from the reliance on punishment and rewards to a reliance on consequences in order to help children learn from their mistakes."

Finally, "The skill of using consequences with children grows from the Power of Intention. Your intention in giivng consequences will determine their effectivenesss. The Power of Intention reminds us to use moments of conflict as opportunities to teach, not punish."

She then goes on to give examples of a situation and then several possible parental responses, some of which use consequences in a punitive way, and some in which they use consequences as a means of helping the child figure out how to solve a problem or to learn from their experience.

As Joline said, there is more than one book about gentle discipline. I'm grateful that as a parent I am able to become informed about a number of gentle discipline philosophies, and to choose the one that works for my family.

I respect those who choose to not use consequences because they have clearly researched and intentionally selected a discipline method that works for them. I find it interesting to learn about these other approaches, and enjoy having a discussion of the range of options used by parents on this forum.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
_"Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems. "_

That's Peggy O'Mara's description of effective, gentle discipline, and the one that these boards follow. I don't see punishment as fitting into this - how does that presume that children have reasons for their behaviors, and how does it engage their cooperation in problem solving? How does it nurture their spirits?

Dar


Seems pretty clear to me.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*

She goes on, "_Many parents are surprised to learn that consequences can take forms other than rewards and punishments_."

Many parents (well, me anyway) think that Becky A. Bailey is attempting to rationalize her use of punishment through creative renaming and double-talk.

But Becky A. Bailey isn't here, so it's not really about her, anyway.

If you want to embed teaching in a punishment, fine, but that doesn't make it any less of a punishment, IMO.

If my child speaks rudely to me, or drops her clean laundry onto the floor of her room, the "consequence" is that I'll tell her how her actions affect me and what changes I am likely to make in my behavior ("I'm not willing to talk with you while you're interrupting me" or "I'm not willing to pay $2.25 a load to wash the same laundry twice without it being worn in between".). She is then free to respond with the same kinds of statements ("I don't want to listen to you when you sound like a shrink, so if you talk regular I won't interupt you" or "I don't mind wearing clothes that have been on the floor for a while, they stay mostly clean" or "I really need more room to keep my clothes because they don't fit in the dresser"). All real-life examples from this weekend, even. No punishment, or "imposed consequences".

Dar


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Exactly. i would no sooner 'punish' my teens for talking snarky at me than i would my dh. Although we try not to be snarky -sounding, sometimes people are. If i spoke that way to my dh, he's not going to punish me, he's going to tell me how he feels when i use that tone. Same with my children. "I am not going to discuss this until we can do it calmly" etc.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

HOw about we include the ENTIRE quote :

"Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive."

It is obvious when we read all of her words that her intent is to discourage all physical punishment.
I also believe wholeheartedly in the same statement.

Joline


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Dar* wrote: If my child speaks rudely to me, or drops her clean laundry onto the floor of her room, the "consequence" is that I'll tell her how her actions affect me and what changes I am likely to make in my behavior ("I'm not willing to talk with you while you're interrupting me" or "I'm not willing to pay $2.25 a load to wash the same laundry twice without it being worn in between".)
I think those are great suggestions. This was just the type of information I was looking for; I will definitely try those with my teen.

I also agree with *UUmom* when she said,

Quote:

i would no sooner 'punish' my teens for talking snarky at me than i would my dh. Although we try not to be snarky -sounding, sometimes people are.
I love the word, "snarky" by the way!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Is refusing to continue a conversation when somebody is speaking rudely or disrespectfully a punishment? A logical consequence?
It cant be a natural consequence because I initiate it.
And yet, this is what I would do to anybody who was being rude or disrespectful to me. Be it my daughter, my husband, my boss.
We can talk later when you have calmed down. (or I have calmed down for that matter)
I think I DO have a stake in how others treat me. I do have the right to modify my behavior in a way that affects others if their treatment is unkind or unfair etc. . .
When I word it that way it doesnt really sound like a "punishment" at all. But these areas are all so gray.
When you draw a black and white line that any "consequence" initiated by the parent is a "punishment" well then.
I punish. But I have been known to "punish" my dh too.
Joline


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Is refusing to continue a conversation when somebody is speaking rudely or disrespectfully a punishment? A logical consequence?

Neither. It's a personal limit. There are things I don't do. My refusing to do them is not a "consequence" for your action; it is simply a limit that I have. I do not talk to people (other than toddlers) who are screaming at me. It's not a consequence -- it's the same rule regardless of whether I'm in a position of "power" over the other person or not -- it's just my own personal limit for what I will accept. It's not designed to change the behavior of the other person in any way -- it's designed to protect myself from getting screamed at. (They can keep screaming all they want; I'm just not going to respond.) That's the difference, I think.

A consequence/punishment is aimed at causing someone to change their behavior not entirely of their own free will. (Well, if you don't do it this way, "x" is going to happen to you.) A personal limit is designed to change *my* circumstance, and whether the other person changes is not relevant.

If I can use Dar's example -- her goal with stating "I'm not willing to wash those clothes again" was not to get her daughter to pick up the clothes. It was to make sure that her daughter understood what her personal limit was, and then allow her daughter to do what she thought was best (be willing to wash the clothes herself, be willing to wear them after they'd been on the floor, be willing to put them away . . . all of which take care of meeting Dar's limit/decision/whatever not to wash the clothes again, but do not manipulate her daughter into picking up her clothes.)

(Dar, if I've misinterpreted or overstepped, my sincerest apologies.)

Does that make any sense?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
It is obvious when we read all of her words that her intent is to discourage all physical punishment.
I also believe wholeheartedly in the same statement.

Um, it's not obvious to *me*, so the "we" part of your statement seems a little questionable. I see the second paragraph as addressing a particular issue that comes up repeatedly when discussing discipline, and making it clear that physical violence isn't ever acceptable. I don't see it as limiting the views stated in the first paragraph at all, but rather as clarifying their meaning in a particular situation...

PaganScribe, UUMom-







. Yup, I agree with everything you said.

I like the word snarky, too...

Dar


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

There's an Edward Lear book entitled "The Hunting of the Snark". (it's a nonsense poem story) Quite funny.

Apparently the word comes from early 1900s British slang, which means to nag or find fault with.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

PaganScribe - wonderful distinction between "imposed consequences" and "personal limits". Well said.

ETA "imposed"


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Here's a question for those of you who say you don't use consequences in your home: Why did you open this thread?

It would really be nice if you could have the grace to allow those of us who wish to discuss consequences to do so in peace.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

nonconformnmom said:


> Here's a question for those of you who say you don't use consequences in your home: Why did you open this thread?
> 
> You asked for other creative approaches in your op.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

The topic of the thread is "What consequences to you use for teen?" I then gave an example of a consequence I used with my teen and invited others to share theirs, with the adjective 'creative' to designate consequences other than the standard ones we all hear about. I'd say that's pretty straightforward.

People who act as if they don't understand what the thread is about are being disingenuous.

Edited to add: Not to mention the fact that you had to first _open_ the thread to see the creative approaches part ....


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Well, clearly, you didn't get the responses you wanted. However, I truely don't understand why you're getting angry with people for sharing their ideas. I open a lot of threads--some seem to have nothing to do with their titles. Surely you're not suggesting that people should be able to determine that their responses will be appreciated to the op and only open threads where this is the case? I'm sure that those who responded to you believed their thoughts might be helpful to you. If they're not, don't use them. But complaining about advise that's meant to be helpful? I just don't understand that.

You sound really frustrated that people aren't telling you what you want to hear. But really, if you read through this thread and delete all the "talk to your teen" advise, you're not left with much. Maybe mdc isn't the place to get the kind of ideas you're looking for.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

You still didn't answer my question. Instead, you choose to criticize me. Huh, one might say that has been a pattern for this entire thread. Instead of replying to the original topic, some posters to this thread have spent their time and energies criticizing the use of consequences. Why? You are happy and secure in your decision to not use consequences, right? The phrase 'live and let live' comes to mind.

I have said before and don't mind saying again, I enjoy discussing a range of options used by parents on MDC. I _don_'t appreciate having post after post that does nothing but say negative things about a POV in which one is open to using consequences at times when they feel it works for their family.

If it is a commonly practiced belief by all parents on MDC that they do not use consequences, one might presume that this original post would get 0 replies.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
You still didn't answer my question.

Which question?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I open every thread in the Teens and Preteens forum. There aren't usually very many here...

And people use the word "consequences" in all sorts of different ways, so without reading the thread there was no way to know exactly what you were talking about...

Dar


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

--And people use the word "consequences" in all sorts of different ways, so without reading the thread there was no way to know exactly what you were talking about...--

Absolutely. Telling my child I can't concentrate on his question if the tone he uses upsets me, is a consequence of his using this tone. I think i use consequences...but it's not punishment.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
The topic of the thread is "What consequences to you use for teen?" I then gave an example of a consequence I used with my teen and invited others to share theirs, with the adjective 'creative' to designate consequences other than the standard ones we all hear about. I'd say that's pretty straightforward.

People who act as if they don't understand what the thread is about are being disingenuous.

Edited to add: Not to mention the fact that you had to first _open_ the thread to see the creative approaches part ....

So what? I don't even have a teenager,but I opened the thread.

This is the Internet. People are going to post their opinions and respond to threads. Lots of people post a message and only ask for certain responses (which you didn't even do) and then get upset when they get stuff that they don't feel applies, or don't like, or whatever.

Again - this is the Internet. Discussion is open. You don't have to have permission to respond to a thread with your thoughts.

There is no discussing ANYTHING "in peace" on the Internet.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Just to clarify: I never said that someone shouldn't open the thread, shouldn't read it, shouldn't post to it. I simply asked "why?" I'm curious as to the motivation.

The vehemence with which some have posted (and posted and posted) to this thread seems to indicate that they are attempting to achieve something beyond just sharing 'creative approaches' that have nothing to do with consequences.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
The vehemence with which some have posted (and posted and posted) to this thread seems to indicate that they are attempting to achieve something beyond just sharing 'creative approaches' that have nothing to do with consequences.

I think this is a topic that many are impassioned about and interested in.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

This has been a really thought provoking thread for me. THanks everyone who posted, I was really impressed with what's been said.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

i think every child has special needs, maybe talking with her dd isn't enough. I actually resent my parents for not giving me any consequences to my actions because i did so many awful things in my teenage years, and got away with so much and never learned a thing, even tho my parents tried talking to me and explaining what i did was wrong and how it affects all of us ect..... it just didn't work at all for me and it's not going to work for a lot of childeren...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i think every child has special needs, maybe talking with her dd isn't enough. I actually resent my parents for not giving me any consequences to my actions because i did so many awful things in my teenage years, and got away with so much and never learned a thing, even tho my parents tried talking to me and explaining what i did was wrong and how it affects all of us ect..... it just didn't work at all for me and it's not going to work for a lot of childeren...

What do you think you needed?


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

i think i needed some boundries and some consequences, because nothing else worked, when i got in trouble and my parents tried to talk to me or understand, it gave me the inpression that i could get away with anything, and only have to talk about it after. (not saying every child is like this, maybe i was really stubborn). i also had a friend who's parents were even more gd than mine, and it REALLY didn't work for her, she would sneek boys into her room, go out drinking, every weekend, because she knew that she could basically get away with it and only have to talk with her parents afterwards when she got caught.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i think i needed some boundries and some consequences, because nothing else worked, when i got in trouble and my parents tried to talk to me or understand, it gave me the inpression that i could get away with anything, and only have to talk about it after. (not saying every child is like this, maybe i was really stubborn). i also had a friend who's parents were even more gd than mine, and it REALLY didn't work for her, she would sneek boys into her room, go out drinking, every weekend, because she knew that she could basically get away with it and only have to talk with her parents afterwards when she got caught.


What sort of boundaries? Is a boundary a punishment? Or something else? If they grounded you, would you have OK with that? Did they serve alcohol to your friends and you wished they hadn't? I want to understand what boundaries you would have felt comfortable with and not tried to negotiate. Were you in danger they ignored?

It sounds to me that there was something you needed, but couldn't get. Did you respect your parent's words? What do you wish they could have prevented you from doing? I am looking for more specifics to the word boundaries, as how does it look different from punishment. And what form of punishment, if you see that as boundaries, would have worked? Do you mean things like grounding? Taking your phone away? Why do you think you rejected or ignored your parents ideas? Were they dialoging or lecturing? Do you think you saw a difference? Did you feel part of a team or family, or did you feel they tried to thwart you? Did you feel respected?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Ah...I just re read it. I think you see GD as a free- for-all. Your friend was happy to put herself in dangerous situtaions because she could 'get away with it'. i would say there was much more going on there.

What does GD mean to you? how would you define it?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i think i needed some boundries and some consequences, because nothing else worked, when i got in trouble and my parents tried to talk to me or understand, it gave me the inpression that i could get away with anything, and only have to talk about it after. (not saying every child is like this, maybe i was really stubborn). i also had a friend who's parents were even more gd than mine, and it REALLY didn't work for her, she would sneek boys into her room, go out drinking, every weekend, because she knew that she could basically get away with it and only have to talk with her parents afterwards when she got caught.

Why do you think you wanted to get away with everything?

I mean, technically speaking, I could get away with a lot of things in life. But I don't, KWIM?

I was a lot like you when I was an adolescent - probably worse. My father overdisciplined (until we left him), and my mother underdisciplined - she had no idea how to parent in some ways, really. No idea how to deal with sex or friends or any of that. And neither did I.

Looking back, I don't wish they put tighter reins on me - I wish they had really helped me with the struggles I faced. They just didn't know how.

I don't want the only thing standing between heavy drinking and my son to be the threat of punishment. That won't help him deal with the real world.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

my parents tried to talk to me and understand why i would act out and they would talk to me about how my actions affected myself and them and how it could hurt me in the long run ect, and they would really listen, but it wasn't enough for me i think they should have taken priviledges away and really wish that i would have gotten grounded because i wouldn't have made the same mistakes over and over again (drinking, sleeping around). i felt respected because my parents listened to me, but i also felt ignored because i didn't get the discipline i desparately needed, and i dont think i would have felt "shamed" at all for being disciplined.. gd isn't going to work for everyone..


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
my parents tried to talk to me and understand why i would act out and they would talk to me about how my actions affected myself and them and how it could hurt me in the long run ect, and they would really listen, but it wasn't enough for me i think they should have taken priviledges away and really wish that i would have gotten grounded because i wouldn't have made the same mistakes over and over again (drinking, sleeping around). i felt respected because my parents listened to me, but i also felt ignored because i didn't get the discipline i desparately needed, and i dont think i would have felt "shamed" at all for being disciplined.. gd isn't going to work for everyone..


Interesting. Doesn't make sense to me, so do you mind me asking you a few questions?

What's GD to you?

Why do you think you disrespected your parents so?

I can see you didn't feel heard- you needed more and they wouldn'tcouldn't give it. did you feel they ignored your needs?

Why do you think they let you continue with self destructive behaviors while doing little?

Do you think you would have respected punishments, like gorundings etc. And how would this have felt different to you than them listening to you and discussing your needs with you?

Do you still, as an adult, try to 'get away with things', if you can? If so, what might make you stop? And if not, what made you change?

Do you have a relationship with your parents today?

Do you consider yourself a GD parent?

I am also particularly interested in girls with good self esteem who 'sleep around' . Did you feel your parents appreciated your sexuality, and what could they have done differently if you didn't?


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

to me gd is parenting with out hitting giving out punishments or consequences, its about understanding eachother, and talking about the problems and why a child may be acting out, and trying to help them understand how their actions are hurting others instead of using punishments... ect... its' about listening and talking, and developing a mutual respect, and really understanding eachother.... i believe in all that i just think that sometimes consequences are necessary, when all else fails.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
to me gd is parenting with out hitting giving out punishments or consequences, its about understanding eachother, and talking about the problems and why a child may be acting out, and trying to help them understand how their actions are hurting others instead of using punishments... ect... its' about listening and talking, and developing a mutual respect, and really understanding eachother.... i believe in all that i just think that sometimes consequences are necessary, when all else fails.


i added more questions. I hope you don't mind...I understand if you might. It's ok.

For those of us not wanting to use coersion, humiliation and punishment, what might be good 'consequences' for teens who are not hearing their parents concerns? I am interested in what might go on in the mind of a teen who feels respected & accpeted by parents, but who doesn't feel a need to reciprocate in any way.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

i also wanted to point out that true natural consequences is not the same as punishment. Although people have been taking them to mean the same thing, they aren't.

There is also a difference between neglect and GD.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i think they should have taken priviledges away and really wish that i would have gotten grounded because i wouldn't have made the same mistakes over and over again (drinking, sleeping around).

I also am struggling to understand...

Did your parents condone your drinking and sleeping around?

If they did, I don't know how GD that is--surely a young person should be told the ramifications of this behavior.

But if they were against this behavior and you did it without their consent or knowlege, why would you respect a "grounding" any more? Short of physical restraint, it would seem that their words alone weren't enough to change your behavior.

I just don't know how problem solving and respect don't "work" in a relationship...


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

of course my parents didnt condone this kind of behaviour, but i didn't care, i pretended to during our talks tho, what are they supposed to do tho, when they aren't grounding me, they told me the ramifications, but it wasn't enough. i would just go out and do the same thing, sure i had natural consequences, an std, a bad rep, but that didn't do anything until i turned 19 and found a boyfriend i really loved alot.
Well monkey's mom, i know it may be shocking but sometimes it just doesnt' work, sometimes it does. sometimes punishments work and sometimes they dont


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
of course my parents didnt condone this kind of behaviour, but i didn't care, i pretended to during our talks tho, what are they supposed to do tho, when they aren't grounding me, they told me the ramifications, but it wasn't enough. i would just go out and do the same thing, sure i had natural consequences, an std, a bad rep, but that didn't do anything until i turned 19 and found a boyfriend i really loved alot.
Well monkey's mom, i know it may be shocking but sometimes it just doesnt' work, sometimes it does. sometimes punishments work and sometimes they dont


I think there are some folks who don't buy into family respect. But to me, it dodesn't seem that your parents were doing anything about the root causes of the depth of your anquish and self-destructive behaviors.

But i don't agree that punishment is the answer to that. A simple look at our prision system proves that.

Did you not want to answer any of my other questions?


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

there wasn't any root cause, other than i wanted to have fun, and they did try and understand, and find the problem, but nothing is 100%, right, it just didn't work for me. and i didnt feel like answering the questions right now, maybe later


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Analogy in my mind would be if somebody said "Well, I cheated on my husband because he trusted me. Had he been a little more strict and locked me up in the house once or twice, I wouldn't have"

We can not decipher the mentality of a person to the "t". However, in this case - if "messing around" was so much fun, do you think simple grounding would have stopped you?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
of course my parents didnt condone this kind of behaviour, but i didn't care, i pretended to during our talks tho,

So why would you have cared if they had grounded you? Why wouldn't you just pretend to be grounded and then go do what you wanted to anyway?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
there wasn't any root cause, other than i wanted to have fun, and they did try and understand, and find the problem, but nothing is 100%, right, it just didn't work for me. and i didnt feel like answering the questions right now, maybe later

Well, obviously you DID have issues, if you now regret doing those things.

Otherwise, why do you care that you slept around when you were a teenager? Why do you keep bringing it up?

My parents tried a variety of consequences (including grounding me) to get me to stop what I was doing, but none of those things worked. It's pretty hard to control a teenager and keep them from doing what they want to do.

That's one reason why it is so important to me to internalize GD methods. They don't depend upon the physical power of the parent to keep a child from doing something, which invariably fails when the child becomes a teenager.

I'm sorry you did things you regret when you were a teenager, and that it had lasting consequences. But your parents, and their lack of punitive control, are not necessarily to blame for that.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Sweetpea,
I competely agree with you and understand your perspective.
I do believe that sometimes children and teens do things they shouldnt because the temptation to do them is stronger than the reasons not to.
The risk of being date raped or getting an STD is just too abstract and "it will never happen to me" to a 15 year old.
The threat of not being allowed to go to a dance next Saturday or not being allowed to use the phone this week are real and relevant to a teenager.
Some ultra rebellious teens wont care , sure.
But some middle of the road teens are just begging parents to "please help me control myself, because I am not doing a good job of it".
When we say "grounding doesnt work" it is true with some teens sure.
But I think sweetpea has a point when she says that talking and explaining doesnt work with some teens either.
I think part of respecting our children is finding what works for them and doing that rather than following some idea of what should work.

But as I am one who thinks that logical consequences (parent applied) have a place in my GD toolkit, I am ready if this is the type of teen I have.
(and so far it looks like I do, but she is only 13, her type could change at any time).
Joline


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

why would i pretend to be grounded when i was a teenager, i didn't want to be grounded, but now i wish i was disciplined better, i saw great results with alot of my friends whos parents would discipline but also caring and understanding, their off in university and very happy and close with there parents. here i am a drop out with two kids (not that im not happy with my kids). i was a very lazy teenager who didn
t want to go to school and my parents couldn't motivate me and i couldn't motivate myself. maybe if i would have had consequences for not going to school (like i wouldn't be allowed to go out that nite, then it might have worked).


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

From my own teen experience, and now as a mother of an 18-year old, my feeling is that teens are in a very unique and difficult stage of life. There is research that shows that teens' brains are in tremendous transition and growth and that they do not process information the way that people do at other stages of life. One thing they are particularly challenged in is that of impulse control. I know that when I was a teen, I was not of a mindset that cared about improving myself or looking at the long-term future. I was only concerned with the here and now. How can I get what I want, as quickly as possible and with minimal effort? Anything that got in the way of my accomplishing that was something I would take seriously. By putting limits on me, grounding me if need be (only happened a couple of times) and restricting privileges like spending money, use of car, etc. my parents gave me something to bounce off of. I needed to push the limits and know that there were bounds within which my behavior was acceptable (or not) in order to feel secure because otherwise I feared I would spin out of control ....

I was very tame as a teen. I never drank, had sex, did drugs, or skipped school. I respected my parents, though I tried not to show it sometimes. I think as teens, it is a huge conflict to be still needing our parents' guidance, but at the same time knowing that we are of an age to leave home and strike out on our own. We have learned just enough to be 'dangerous' as the saying goes (I don't mean that literally), and on top of that, lacking impulse control makes for a volatile situation unless firm boundaries are provided.

I firmly believe that the teen years are chaotic by design, and that if parents and teens continue communicating (which sometimes means arguing), they will come out the other side all the better for it.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
there wasn't any root cause, other than i wanted to have fun, and they did try and understand, and find the problem, but nothing is 100%, right, it just didn't work for me. and i didnt feel like answering the questions right now, maybe later


i amjust trying to figure out what 'it' was, when you say 'it didn't work for me"?

What exactly didn't work? What's it?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
From my own teen experience, and now as a mother of an 18-year old, my feeling is that teens are in a very unique and difficult stage of life. There is research that shows that teens' brains are in tremendous transition and growth and that they do not process information the way that people do at other stages of life. One thing they are particularly challenged in is that of impulse control. I know that when I was a teen, I was not of a mindset that cared about improving myself or looking at the long-term future. I was only concerned with the here and now. How can I get what I want, as quickly as possible and with minimal effort? Anything that got in the way of my accomplishing that was something I would take seriously. By putting limits on me, grounding me if need be (only happened a couple of times) and restricting privileges like spending money, use of car, etc. my parents gave me something to bounce off of. I needed to push the limits and know that there were bounds within which my behavior was acceptable (or not) in order to feel secure because otherwise I feared I would spin out of control ....

I was very tame as a teen. I never drank, had sex, did drugs, or skipped school. I respected my parents, though I tried not to show it sometimes. I think as teens, it is a huge conflict to be still needing our parents' guidance, but at the same time knowing that we are of an age to leave home and strike out on our own. We have learned just enough to be 'dangerous' as the saying goes (I don't mean that literally), and on top of that, lacking impulse control makes for a volatile situation unless firm boundaries are provided.

I firmly believe that the teen years are chaotic by design, and that if parents and teens continue communicating (which sometimes means arguing), they will come out the other side all the better for it.


i agree the teen years can be chaotic for some, but I can't see how punishment changes that. If anything, I would imagine it would give a difficult child ever more rebelious.

Anyway, I am not sure sweetpea's anecdotal parenting experience can be labeled GD at this point, since we have no way of knowing whether the parents were actually GD or not.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Anyway, I am not sure sweetpea's anecdotal parenting experience can be labeled GD at this point, since we have no way of knowing whether the parents were actually GD or not.

I get the feeling that she has some issues from that period of time in her life that are more complex than whether or not her parents are GD.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Here's an example of how punishment can help a teenager with limits.

My dd and I were in the car with a friend of hers who was sharing a story. The girls involved were all around 12/13.
Anyway her friend was saying how this girl they both knew and some friends had left her house saying they were going over her (dd's friend) house late one afternoon. That night dd's friend started receiving frantic phone calls from the girl's mom asking if she was there, if she had been when she left etc. . . These phone calls continued till after midnight.
During this time the girl and her friends never did go to dd's friend's house.

So after they shared this story I asked DD what she thought about this. And how would she feel about wandering the neighborhood all hours of the night. Now she is 13, and she vaguely understands the risks of abduction and rape etc. . . but her answer was "I would never ever ever do that!!! You would KILL ME!!!"
Now, mind, I have never killed her before. WE use logical consequences very rarely, usually only in situations of danger or something so often repeated that we decide to take it to the next step. And usually DD helps decide what consequence is appropriate.
But in her teenage mind. It isnt the fear of being caught after curfew by the police, or being gang raped or even simply because of respect for my feelings that would help her make a responsible decision. It is the knowledge that if she does do something like that, Mom will act. For my dd. THat is enough.
Not all teens respond the same certainly. But real life consequences just dont seem "real" to lots of teens.

Joline


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

UUMom said:


> i amjust trying to figure out what 'it' was, when you say 'it didn't work for me"?
> 
> What exactly didn't work? What's it?/
> 
> ...


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
why would i pretend to be grounded when i was a teenager,

I'm saying IF your parents had grounded you, why would that have been any different for you? You keep saying you didn't listen to them and just did what you wanted anyway, so I'm not getting why them saying, "You're grounded." would have made you listen.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
but now i wish i was disciplined better, i saw great results with alot of my friends whos parents would discipline but also caring and understanding, their off in university and very happy and close with there parents. here i am a drop out with two kids (not that im not happy with my kids). i was a very lazy teenager who didn
t want to go to school and my parents couldn't motivate me and i couldn't motivate myself. maybe if i would have had consequences for not going to school (like i wouldn't be allowed to go out that nite, then it might have worked).

Maybe. There certainly aren't any magic formulas. But, at some point we all make our own choices and have to take responsibility for those choices--good or bad.

I agree with you, UUMom--I'm hard pressed to blame GD for not working here. Lots we don't know.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

"That's one reason why it is so important to me to internalize GD methods. They don't depend upon the physical power of the parent to keep a child from doing something, which invariably fails when the child becomes a teenager."

There is no guarantee that GD will work either...nothing "works" to be honest...I think GD is the best way to go...and will continue with all my children even though my oldest daughter who is 14 and was completely GD is going through a period of absolute and utter rebellion and while that would be ok if she were safe, she isn't...she has made bad decision after bad decision, some of which have been extremely dangerous...I talk to her, she understands and gets out on her own and in the heat of the moment she makes a totally wrong choice with no regard for her safety or my sanity









So she has more rules and regulations than ever..because I would like to have a living child in 5 years...it's my priority right now and that's my focus because if I don't make these limits then I may not.

Just like I wouldn't let her go play on the sidewalk when she was 2 to prevent her being hurt in traffic I also won't let her wander dangerous downtown streets in a large city alone with no knowledge of her whereabouts no matter how safe she insists she is. I know better than she does and like I said...I just want her alive.

She's a great kid and has so many positive qualities but the truth is good judgement isn't one of them right now. So here I am being the tough parent I never thought I would have to be.

I am proud to say though that all of these boundaries have been set in place with minimal yelling on my part...I am staying calm even though she lets me down time after time. But I cry a lot when she's not around because I worry so much.

I hope she comes through this and at 18 or 20 starts to see that I had to do it...it wasn't punishment, it was prevention.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Yes. Sadly, I am totally convinced that these parents had no clue what their child needed.









They did not know what GD really was.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I know it seems right to now advocate for punishment, since 'nothing else worked' for this poster.

While many parents have decided that shame works for them, my children deserve better.

There is nothing that will make me disrespect my childrens needs. Clearly, this is what separates us from the masses.

There is no emoticon for respect.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:

There is nothing that will make me disrespect my childrens needs. Clearly, this is what separates us from the masses.
I agree 100%.
I also think that as parents we are in the unique position to be the best determiners of what those needs are.
If my child needs limits, and needs firmer guidance once in a while. I am going to step up and do it. Even if I'd rather just help her understand why and hope for the best.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

UUmom, you have used the word "shame" in nearly all of your posts on this thread and I am still confused. What do you mean by "shame"? Can you explain how a child might be shamed, or more importantly, how you can claim that any parent is intentionally shaming their child, using any of the measures discussed in this thread? That might help me understand where you're coming from better.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I know it seems right to now advocate for punishment, since 'nothing else worked' for this poster.

While many parents have decided that shame works for them, my children deserve better.

There is nothing that will make me disrespect my childrens needs. Clearly, this is what separates us from the masses.

There is no emoticon for respect.

so if your method wasn't working you would "respect" your child by not changing your method???

also, finding a fair consequence :example: if your teen skips school, talk to her about it openly (with out yelling) explain why it isn't a good idea to skip school ect.and have her stay home that nite, instead of going out with her friends... and i am sure she will not feel "shamed"..

maybe if you yell and call her bad over and over, she will be shamed.... i dont think your really going into the mind of a teenager, when you say that they will feel shame for recieving consequences, to me that sounds like a bunch of psycho babble, that doesn't relate to "real" teens.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
UUmom, you have used the word "shame" in nearly all of your posts on this thread and I am still confused. What do you mean by "shame"? Can you explain how a child might be shamed, or more importantly, how you can claim that any parent is intentionally shaming their child, using any of the measures discussed in this thread? That might help me understand where you're coming from better.

Punishment equals shame for me.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

sweetpea333 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *UUMom*
> ...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
so if your method wasn't working you would "respect" your child by not changing your method???

also, finding a fair consequence :example: if your teen skips school, talk to her about it openly (with out yelling) explain why it isn't a good idea to skip school ect.and have her stay home that nite, instead of going out with her friends... and i am sure she will not feel "shamed"..

maybe if you yell and call her bad over and over, she will be shamed.... i dont think your really going into the mind of a teenager, when you say that they will feel shame for recieving consequences, to me that sounds like a bunch of psycho babble, that doesn't relate to "real" teens.


I do have two teens, so i am in the trenches here. I would take some sort of action if i saw them displaying self-destructive behavior. It wouldn't include punishment, however.

I think the thing I can't wrap my brain around is that if a parent does nothing. they are not GD. A child in pain is something that needs to be addressed, Parents who don't do that aren't being respectful of the child. Respect is at the heart of GD.

Your parents are not here to tell us what they were thinking, so I don't want to put them on the block. My questions have more to do with trying to understand your position.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

There is no guarantee that GD will work either...nothing "works" to be honest...I think GD is the best way to go...and will continue with all my children even though my oldest daughter who is 14 and was completely GD is going through a period of absolute and utter rebellion and while that would be ok if she were safe, she isn't...she has made bad decision after bad decision, some of which have been extremely dangerous...I talk to her, she understands and gets out on her own and in the heat of the moment she makes a totally wrong choice with no regard for her safety or my sanity
I think that sometimes parents believe that if they do everything "right" their child will always make the "right" choices (by the parents light). This is just not true no matter how you parent. Your children will make choices you do not agree with. This can be frustrating, maddening, sad... as parents we often feel we have the right answer and we want to spare our kids the pain of having to make mistakes. But they will make mistakes, and sometimes we will be wrong and they will be right. What we can do (actually _must do_) is teach them self-respect (by respecting them and yourself) and right from wrong (by giving them information and by example).

Quote:

Just like I wouldn't let her go play on the sidewalk when she was 2 to prevent her being hurt in traffic I also won't let her wander dangerous downtown streets in a large city alone with no knowledge of her whereabouts no matter how safe she insists she is. I know better than she does and like I said...I just want her alive.
I sorry you and your daughter are going through such a difficult time. Parenting can feel so overwhelming sometimes, especially when we feel stuck. In this situation I would try to find a way to meet my daughters needs. She needs to be safe--that's true. Sit down with her and find out what else she needs and find a way to meet it that both of you can agree to. I am a firm believer in creative problem solving. I am sure there is an answer to every problem.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

The thing is, one can often easily scoop a toddler out of harms way in a parking lot. That is GD. GD doesn't mean 'stand there and let the natural consequence of getting run over by a bus teach the child about not running off'. If you see that as GD, you're mistaken.

The teen bound and determined to walk the streets at night in dangerous areas is another issue. A self -destructive teen isn't one that can be easily scooped out of harm's way.

The toodler and teen have different reasons for their behavior. They are not comparable.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???


I am very confused. Are you sure you did all of this simply because it was 'fun'?

It sounds like you all had a terrible time.

I am not sure what i would do if my children were in the sort of pain you were...but I know it would not involve punishment. Punishment doesn't lead to self-respect. I don't see how self-destructive behavior could be stopped with punishment.

I am trying to understand...why do you think grounding you would have changed your behavior? Did they ever ask you to stay home? To not sleep with a lot of boys? You say you engaged in these behaviors because it was fun--perhaps trying to thwart groundings etc would have also been fun? Why do you feel that punsihment would have changed your behavior?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Uumom* wrote: Punishment equals shame for me.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in what I was asking. Can you define the word, "shame" for me as it applies to GD?

For example, I can say, "red equals color" and while true, it doesn't tell me anything about "color".

Shame is a very subjective emotion. Some feel shame in situations that others do not. And some _have_ no shame. Only the person experiencing a given situation can say whether or not it feels 'shaming' for them.

For example, when my 3 year old wets her pants in public, it doesn't phase her one bit. She goes on playing happily, wet pants and all. If my teen wets her pants in public, I am fairly confident she would say that she felt shame (the dictionary defines shame as feeling embarrassed, disgraced).


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in what I was asking. Can you define the word, "shame" for me as it applies to GD?

For example, I can say, "red equals color" and while true, it doesn't tell me anything about "color".

Shame is a very subjective emotion. Some feel shame in situations that others do not. And some _have_ no shame. Only the person experiencing a given situation can say whether or not it feels 'shaming' for them.

For example, when my 3 year old wets her pants in public, it doesn't phase her one bit. She goes on playing happily, wet pants and all. If my teen wets her pants in public, I am fairly confident she would say that she felt shame (the dictionary defines shame as feeling embarrassed, disgraced).

Shame here is a feeling of unworth, of unworthy-ness. Can you think of a time when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power? Or embarrassed you for their own gain? That's what i am talking about here.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???
From your posts it sounds like you regret a lot of the choices you made as a teen. It also sounds like your parents tried to help you, but for whatever reason they were not able to. Probably there was something more that could have been done, and it's easy to say Punishment would have been the answer because that is the conventional way problems such as this are handled. To me it seems like a person that is engaged in self-destructive behavior has little respect for him/herself. I doubt that punishment is a good way to help someone learn self respect.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Shame here is a feeling of unworth, of unworthy-ness. Can you think of a time when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power? Or embarrassed you for their own gain? That's what i am talking about here.


Consequences don't automatically bring shame. My daughter makes dangerous choices...when something goes wrong the shame is all her own..she knows what's right and wrong, what's a wise decision and what's not but in the moment she doesn't care...then when it goes wrong I don't need to shame her, she feels it all on her own.

But I do impose consequences to her actions...curfew, call from where you are, only to stay with certain friends etc. etc. I have had to for her safety...and I have told her it's for her safety and as she proves she is making safer, wiser decisions or is mature enough to deal with the decisions she makes then the rules will be in place. Nothing I do her is for my own gain, it's all for her gain...

I will ask her though...if her curfew shames her...just to be sure...or if her actions that caused the curfew to be imposed shames her.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:

when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power?
I think it is the natural state of affairs for parents to have power over their children and to use that power to help protect and teach their children.
I think that to be GD is to be a good steward of that power and to use it wisely, and only for the good of the child. (to teach, not to take out parental emotions)
I do not think that in order to be kind and respectful to our children we need to deny this power and refuse to use it.
I do not think it is shame to a child to have a parent have power over them. It is just the natural course of events. It is no more shameful to be shorter, taller or have a different color of hair.
Eventually as children grow they take on a greater share of this power until eventually they have 100%.

Joline


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Allgirls, I like the way you explained it. That makes a lot of sense to me. To use another example as to how *I* remember feeling about the way my parents handled things -- say I used my mom's car and didn't get it back to her at the time she told me to have it back. My mom could have handled it by using consequences (call it "logical" or "Imposed" it really doesn't matter to me), or by talking with me and telling me how my actions impacted her.

Consequences: "Karyn, you didn't bring the car back when you said you would. Tomorrow, you won't be able to use the car to go shopping with your friends. You may use the car again starting on Sunday."

Talking: "Karyn, I allowed you to use my car yesterday and you didn't return it when you said you would. I felt disappointed and stresed because I couldn't make it to my meeting on time. Everyone had to wait for me to get there on the bus and they were not happy with me. Please try to get the car back on time in the future."

Now, this is just talking about *me* and how *I* would feel ... but honestly, I would feel more shame and embarrassment at the conversation approach than I would have with the consequences approach. To me, the consequences are something that I would have anticipated as a result of my abusing the privilege of using my mom's car. I would have weighed that possibility ("mom usually restricts me whenever I bring her car back late, but I really need to stay out late today so I'll take the risk") and made the decision for myself to take the consequences.

However, having my mom sit me down and tell me that she was disappointed and it made her late and everyone was waiting and she had to take the bus ... well, that would have caused me to feel embarrassed, disgraced, unworthy.

The results might very well be reversed for other people. But that is how it feels for me. That is my point about the feeling of shame being extremely subjective and individually determined. As parents, it is our responsibility to know and respect our children enough to understand what their triggers are and to avoid putting them in situations in which they feel belittled or unworthy. How you (the collective 'you') do that for your child is different than how I do it for mine, because every child is unique.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
Consequences don't automatically bring shame. My daughter makes dangerous choices...when something goes wrong the shame is all her own..she knows what's right and wrong, what's a wise decision and what's not but in the moment she doesn't care...then when it goes wrong I don't need to shame her, she feels it all on her own.

But I do impose consequences to her actions...curfew, call from where you are, only to stay with certain friends etc. etc. I have had to for her safety...and I have told her it's for her safety and as she proves she is making safer, wiser decisions or is mature enough to deal with the decisions she makes then the rules will be in place. Nothing I do her is for my own gain, it's all for her gain...

I will ask her though...if her curfew shames her...just to be sure...or if her actions that caused the curfew to be imposed shames her.


I am not sure a curfew falls under my definition of shaming...I see a curfew more of a safety issue, perhaps. In some towns teens aren't allowed to be out, or driving past certain hours. I would see a that curfew as more protective.

I am also not seeing a curfew or a call home as a consequence. These are agreed on issues that I see as parents and teens working on together to mutual need. Calling is something down out of respect for a parent's worries about whether a child is safe, it's not a consequence of anything. if she calls to tell you she is in a safe place, you gain as well, in emotional peace.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I think it is the natural state of affairs for parents to have power over their children and to use that power to help protect and teach their children.
I think that to be GD is to be a good steward of that power and to use it wisely, and only for the good of the child. (to teach, not to take out parental emotions)
I do not think that in order to be kind and respectful to our children we need to deny this power and refuse to use it.
I do not think it is shame to a child to have a parent have power over them. It is just the natural course of events. It is no more shameful to be shorter, taller or have a different color of hair.
Eventually as children grow they take on a greater share of this power until eventually they have 100%.

Joline


I think it matters whether we use our power for good or for evil .


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Uumom - Now you are talking about intent. The same thing I brought up in post #38 and you objected to in #39 ....


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Consequences: "Karyn, you didn't bring the car back when you said you would. Tomorrow, you won't be able to use the car to go shopping with your friends. You may use the car again starting on Sunday."

Talking: "Karyn, I allowed you to use my car yesterday and you didn't return it when you said you would. I felt disappointed and stresed because I couldn't make it to my meeting on time. Everyone had to wait for me to get there on the bus and they were not happy with me. Please try to get the car back on time in the future."
Neither of these examples really seems to solve the problem very well. You said yourself that

Quote:

the consequences are something that I would have anticipated as a result of my abusing the privilege of using my mom's car. I would have weighed that possibility ("mom usually restricts me whenever I bring her car back late, but I really need to stay out late today so I'll take the risk") and made the decision for myself to take the consequences.
So the consequences don't solve the problem (the problem being: I need to have my car when I have to get to an apointment). In the second example you only ask that Karyn "*try* to get the car back on time in the future." I don't think that would be good enough.

How about-- "Karyn, I was really in a bind when I didn't have the car back in time to make it to my meeting. What can we do to make sure that doesn't happen again?" and then mom and daughter sit down and brainstorm ideas together. Maybe Karyn could use a cell phone or a pager so that she could get a reminder if she's running late? Maybe Karyn should use public transportation or a friend could drive if there is a potential confict with the car?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Momoffour* wrote: Neither of these examples really seems to solve the problem very well.
Yes, you're right. I guess it depends on what 'problem' one is trying to solve. Is it having the car returned on time, every time? Or is the 'problem' really that of helping your child be equipped with the ability to make reasoned judgments and informed choices?

To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for _some_ children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Yes, you're right. I guess it depends on what 'problem' one is trying to solve. Is it having the car returned on time, every time? Or is the 'problem' really that of helping your child be equipped with the ability to make reasoned judgments and informed choices?

To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for _some_ children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

couldn't have said it better myself..


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Uumom - Now you are talking about intent. The same thing I brought up in post #38 and you objected to in #39 ....

Not at all. My position is that punishment has no place in GD. Intent matters not when we harm our children through punishment. Some parents abuse their power. Esp where punishment used.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

do you really believe that that using the gd method but also, adding some light consequences when appropriate, will harm them??? well then you have alot to learn about teenagers. get your nose out of the parenting books and look at real life and not a "textbook teenager". their not made of glass, you know.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

Well hopefully they'll have many years of practicing problem solving under their belt and will, thus, be equipped to handle situations at college, too.

If a situation arises that they don't know how to handle, there is no shame in calling on the mother and father for advice, right? Or another adult, professor, dorm mother, residence assistant.

I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.[/QUOTE]

how do you know how they were raised, and also how do you explain all the kids who are well behaved?? are saying the bad kids must have had punishment in their life and all the good kids were raised gd method


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
do you really believe that that using the gd method but also, adding some light consequences when appropriate, will harm them??? well then you have alot to learn about teenagers. get your nose out of the parenting books and look at real life and not a "textbook teenager". their not made of glass, you know.

Are you addressing me, sweetpea? If so, I don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same. Why do you see that GD is without consequences. I mentioned it earlier, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of GD.

I have a 16 yr old and a 13 yr old. I mentioned that several posts ago. I am right in the trenches of teen life. I am not sure you are actually reading my posts, or anyone else who is not completely agreeing with you. Although I am not sure what your postion on GD is and i am not disagreeing or agreeing with you. I am enjoying this discussion greatly and am genuienly trying to understand what you are saying.

You're quite aggressive in wanting to condone punishment, or come up with 'good' reasons for punishment, and i am not understanding why that is, or what your motivation might be. Do you feel let down by your parents, somehow?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Uumom* wrote above: If so, I don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same.
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread

Quote:

You were looking for punishment, which is just another word for 'consequence'.
UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.

how do you know how they were raised, and also how do you explain all the kids who are well behaved?? are saying the bad kids must have had punishment in their life and all the good kids were raised gd method[/QUOTE]

You seem really angry at people here, and i haven't a clue why.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread

UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?

i don't. But I think other people do. A consequence isn't the same as punishment. A consequence is when you got out in the rain and get wet. that was about 39 posts ago. :LOL By multiple people, UnschoolMa and Dar in cluded.. And by the way, where are you two?









What sort of consequence would you not see as punishment? I already stated what mine were--i think in the post you're referring to, but who knows where that is. You could do a word search...

It's quite hard to have a genuine conversation when people are being so argumentative and not reading carefully.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread

UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?


i absolutely do not.

ETA--wait, i think i answered this question already. I;m starting to repeat myself. Again.

And again.









In the end, if people want to punish their children, it's nt illegal or anything. It's just not GD. Oh wait, i said that too. I think I'll go read the more comforting Unconditonal Parenting thread...







Come join us-- perhaps that will help some to understand where some of us GD types are coming from,

Or not







.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Well...I am a gentle parent with a gentle discipline style. I don't subscribe to any one "method" be it "unconditional parenting" which I think some consider to be the only true GD or any other for that matter. If it feels wrong...I try not to do it. Some things about UP don't appeal to me...it's too vague...I need practical tools and advice...I don't have time for theory and philosophy many days...I just need to have a quiet house so I can keep the baby sleeping so I can sleep.

I don't shame or embarrass my children into behaving the way I want them to...I don't use time outs or spanking or threat of either, I don't use bribery or manipulation. But I do have expectations and they are based on common mutual decency and respect. No swearing or namecalling etc.

I consider the way I parent to be Gentle discipline. BUT my children to have consequences and rules....because it works best this way. I have child 4 on the way and we are a blended family as well...my husband is away a lot so I have to create peace in my house for the benefit of the whole family.

UUMom...I have to say that throughout all your posts I have gotten the impression that you think consequences and punishment are the same thing. I too must have misread your posts...but it did come across that way to me.

To the OP who asked what consequences we use for our teens

Well here is an example...my dd went to my brothers...was supposed to be home at 11pm when she went out with her friends, came up with a scheme to stay at my former SIL(where she could have stayed out past curfew), call me from my brother's then go out again.

The consequences...I will not drive her to my brother's house again, she is to have no contact with my ex SIL(who actually concocted teh scheme) because I spent all night worrying about her when I needed to sleep because I had to get up early..I am pregnant and have 2 other children, the SIL has given her alcohol and is generally a negative influence and because she created chaos for me and my family plus my brother. Maybe it sounds punitive but actually it's just my natural response to what I consider dangerous behaviour. I will not put my self through the worry of her wandering the streets of a city miles away while I worry and wait, helpless at home. We have talked about my reasons and she knows that her actions are responsible for my reactions. She doesn't like it but she knows that everytime I trust her she blows it. She has to regain my trust.

That's one example. Well..that's the only example right now...otherwise it's life as usual.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
UUMom...I have to say that throughout all your posts I have gotten the impression that you think consequences and punishment are the same thing. I too must have misread your posts...but it did come across that way to me. usual.


Well, I'll try this one last time.







Then interpretation is left to the point of view of the reader. Consequences are when you go out in the rain and get wet. A consequence of not doing your laundry means you have no clean clothes. These things are consequences, but they are not punishment, therefore are not the same.

OTOH, some people make up 'consequences'. "If you don't do A, B and C, then I will not allow you to do D, E and F." This is an example of arbitrary consequences as punishment.

Clear as mud?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I think the problem is we are sometimes using the word "consequences" without differentiating between "natural consequences" (getting wet)
or "logical consequences" (parent imposed but relating directly to the infraction) or just "consequences" which may or not be logical, natural or even rational .
These are three very different things.
For example If my teenager talks on the phone half the night and doesnt hang it up to recharge.
The natural consequence is the cordless phone is dead the next day and neither one of us can make calls.
The logical consequence is taht she must only make calls from the chair next to the phone so that the phone does not get lost or left in he rroom.
A "consequence" that might not be either would be that I make her clean out the garage as punishment because of my anger. (regardless ofwhether this would actually teach her anything. )

So it is kinda dangerous to say "I am for consequences" or "I am against consequences" or "consequences are just another word for punishment" or whatever without it getting really confusing!!

For example I think (pardon if this is a misinterpretation, just trying to clear things up) That UU mom is trying to say that she thinks natural consequences are a good teaching tool. (getting wet) so she does "use them" to help her children learn. But also that logical consequences which are imposed by the parent are not natural, and are therefore akin to punishment(with some exceptions for safety).

But when only the word "consequence" is used. It becomes hard to differentiate exactly what is being referred to.

Joline


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Back from vacation









"Logical consequences" are punishments - they're imposed on someone with less power by someone with more power, in an attempt to manipulate behavior. "Natural consequences" are, well, life... but I try to help my child avoid them if possible, because I think it's the kind thing to do. If my daughter keeps leaving books outside and I see a book outside and it's starting to rain, I could just leave the book and let the "natural consequence" be that the book gets ruined, or I call out, "Rain! It's raining, and I think that's your book on the table outside!" or if she's not around I would probably go get it myself... and I would expect the same from her. If she sat and watched a book of mine get ruined in the rain I'd be pissed.

One thing about kids going out - I've physically prevented my daughter from leaving the house at 2 am when she was upset, and another time I left with her and walked down the block with her and talked her home... just letting her go wasn't an option - it wasn't safe. I have no problem with doing this - my job is to keep her safe. I would feel wrong about saying something like, "If you walk out that door, you're grounded for a week," even if the end result was that she didn't take off. I think that's just delaying the inevitable - some day she'll turn around and say, "Fine, ground me!" and walk out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconfornmom*
To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for some children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

This really hasn't been my experience, and I think that your second scenerio doesn't happen very often with teens who've been raised this way. I know Rain considers the consequences of her actions a lot, but they're *real* consequences. "If I do X, this person might feel left out, because usually we hang out together on that day. I really want to do X, though. I could tell her I'm not feeling well, but that's dishonest. I wonder if she'd like to do X with me? Well, I could ask her, I guess. Maybe if she doesn't want to come we could hang out on this day instead," and so on. She might ask me if I could drive her somewhere, and she'll usually check with me when she makes plans to go somewhere ("Hey, Mom, T is driving me to writing group and then we're going to hang out for a while, 'k? I'll call if we stay out past dark."

I think the first scenerio really shows why consequences (punishments) *don't* work - if the child is focused on the punishment, then her decision rests on whather she's willing to accept that punishment and how much she wants to do X. Without punishments, she's focusing on all of the possible results of her action, not just a punishment. If she's been raised in an atmosphere of problem-solving, she also knows that she can probably do X in a safer way, with some creative thinking...

Dar


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

yep...I found for my oldest daughter...she was very self-controlled and made pretty sound decisions for herself until around December of last year. Then it all went nuts..it felt like it was overnight..suddenly the kids I trusted to do the right thing for the right reason just didn't seem to care anymore..if anyone got hurt by her actions, if she was careless and put her in danger etc. etc. She suddenly became impulsive and careless and uncaring..she changed so much in a short time..well..it's almost a year and in that time I have had to completely change what we were doing that worked for 12 years. Talking, discussing, problem solving continued but then we had to back it up with serious boundaries because once out of our sight she didn't care anymore...I even investigated whether she was on drugs but found no evidence of that...it's just that the change was so sudden.

I think it's the teen years...they can be tough for any child no matter how they were raised for the first years...when they decide do irrational and dangerous things...well...for me all bets are off.

Anyway...right now I am going one day at a time. I am trying so hard to keep her as close as possible. She is fighting me every step of the way though.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

RIght before my daughter turned 13 it was like she was posessed. She became an entirely different person too.
Thank the heavens this lasted for a very short time. SHe had the super intense teen transition.
Not only did she turn 13 but 2 months before she moved from 7th to 8th grade.
So even before she was a teenager she was thrown in with a bunch of 14 year olds and was expected to be, feel, and act 14.
It was terrible terrible terrible.
She told me later that she "couldnt trust herself to make good decisions".
This is a child who had always had her head on straight. And suddenly it just wasnt working properly. And she even knew it and it scared her.
Right now she has just started high school and things are pretty calm. She is making rational decisions and seems to know when she is a little over her head and we talk talk talk and have a great relationship.
But when she was going through all of that. There was no talking. I couldnt possibly know anything about what it was like so I wasnt worth talking to.

Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control. I think that firm boundaries under such circumstances can be very centering and help them feel more under control.
We are out on the other side and it is lovely. Hope to see you here soon!
JOline


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Right now things are better at home...I know my daughter thrives under structure and boundaries and actually is much happier that way even though she fights it...it's the wierdest thing. It think she knows she is making bad decisions and actually wants someone to make some for her so she doesn't have to do it herself.

Anyway..tomorrow school starts..she has registered for her classes and I asked them yesterday when do they want to do their homework...as soon as they get home or after dinner and they both voted for as soon as they get home...my oldest does have a job and is very responsible with that so far...not being late and working all her shifts...they love her there and it makes her feel good plus she is making her own $$$. They have only given her 2 short shifts a week once school starts...just perfect!

It's funny...she fights to do things her own way but thrives under our boundaries...she's trying to find the balance I guess but doesn't have the maturity to get there.

I am hopeful


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
Right now things are better at home...I know my daughter thrives under structure and boundaries and actually is much happier that way even though she fights it...it's the wierdest thing. It think she knows she is making bad decisions and actually wants someone to make some for her so she doesn't have to do it herself.

Anyway..tomorrow school starts..she has registered for her classes and I asked them yesterday when do they want to do their homework...as soon as they get home or after dinner and they both voted for as soon as they get home...my oldest does have a job and is very responsible with that so far...not being late and working all her shifts...they love her there and it makes her feel good plus she is making her own $$$. They have only given her 2 short shifts a week once school starts...just perfect!

It's funny...she fights to do things her own way but thrives under our boundaries...she's trying to find the balance I guess but doesn't have the maturity to get there.

I am hopeful

Are you using boundaries and consequences to mean the same thing?


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control.








you must have me confused with someone else.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Are you using boundaries and consequences to mean the same thing?

not really but generally consequences following her breaching the boundaries...the consequences are different now than they used to be...and I am using more preventative measures now.

I used to let her do things and trust her...now I don't let her do certain things...because she is not acting responsible and in fact acting dangerously. I am on top of her a lot more than I ever had to be. I have stopped her having contact with my former SIL who has been a terrible negative influence on her. Well there are a lot more limits. And it's better...her life was too dramatic and it needs to be simpler. We are striking a balance...also I am noticing with all these distractions at a minimum we are talking and relating better which is positive in my opinion.

It's getting better and what I am seeing is that generally she is happier...she gets angry when she can't do teh things she wants to at that moment but overall she is a happier girl. I see laughter and joking again now..whereas she was all sullen and angry before. I don't expect it to be a smooth trip but at least we have made progress. And she agrees


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I agree that these are different things. We have lots of agreed upon boundaries. My kids aren't ok to do 'whatever they want'--which in my book would be to take off without telling me where they were going, or not calling when they get to where they are going or taking my car without checking on what my car needs are etc. Or in the case of the schooled kids, to blow off school demands, like homework etc. We try to work together to come up with plans that will work for us.

The consquences part is something *completely* different. One of which might be "You can't just take my car without checking whether I need it. We have to work out something where we can both get to where we need to go".. Ok--teen does not yet have a license, but this is what i am imagining a scenario could be like...

As for what you are saying is preventative, is this an example: One of our boundaries is that our children cannot go into a home where there are no parents. So either dh or I bring her right to the door to drop her off (not punitively, just to be thoughtful parents) , say hi to the parent and ask when pick up is. This way our child knows we mean what we say and she doesn't even have to consider we won't helo keep her safe as best we can.

Another boundary we have is that our teens cannot roam around the mall. Not that we wish they could without hassle, but because the security guards aren't nice to teens. Teens cannot even stop moving in the mall, and only one person at a time can stand near a payphone--the guards make the others walk as one child makes a call. We don't think this is a safe, respectful or healthy envrinoment. Thankfully, my teens are happy to go to a movie and then leave. They can get a pizza at a different place, or come home for pizza with their friends.

In agreement, boundaries & consquences aren't the same.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

some of the consequences I have recently implemented...if she is not home by 11pm she doesn't go out the next evening. This is an easy one as I am the driver for most of their outings.

She will say she is going to one place then I find out she's at another, not so safe location..I will drive there and pick her up(I hate doing this because it embarrasses her) but if you saw some of the places she goes well, anyway, she doesn't want me to show up so she no longer goes.

I also have a buddy group thing going with her friends' parents...we call each other to collaborate their stories...she will tell me her friends parents are driving, her friend tells her mom I am driving...we now call each other to get times and locations and phone #'s.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momoffour*







you must have me confused with someone else.

SOrry,
you're right. I was meaning to refer to ALLGIRLS I ought to have scrolled down to double check my memory. Sorry


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control. I think that firm boundaries under such circumstances can be very centering and help them feel more under control.
We are out on the other side and it is lovely. Hope to see you here soon!
JOline

since you meant me I have to say I agree...she does seem more in control of herself when we have more control (I don't like that word really) The boundaries we have in place help her maintain calm and peace and though she rebels and threatens when she doesn't get exactly what she wants when she wants it she at least has time to reflect and deal whereas when she was living with my brother their home was total and utter chaos. And then she would come home and we had rules about respect and it was a shock to her. Being here now and having most of her life in order it's much better. Let's see how this first day of school goes shall we


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
We use no consequences, other than the natural ones that occur, and sometimes that doesn't have a chance to happen either. (I have picked up something they left outside rather than letting it get stolen or ruined, etc)

We are pretty big on talking in our family. If something comes up that any one of us isn't comfortable with we discuss it, and we come to a place of agreement.


After seeing similar responses of yours, I'm curious.... Do you mind a hypothetical? If not, let's say for example, your 16 year-old daughter goes to the high school dance and it's agreed that she will come straight home from the dance and be there by midnight. Midnight comes and goes and she strolls in at 2:30 AM with a half-dollar sized hickey in the middle of her neck. How is that handled? What would the natural consequences be?


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Same here.

We don't set curfew for the members of our family, we just inform one another when we are going to be home. If for one reason or another the other family member wishes that this time is changed, we discuss it.

Disrespect towards one another would be hurtful to a reciever, so we usually don't do it. If it happens because somebody did not think about it, we talk and usually appology/explanation follows.

Those apply to me, DH, DS and DD

This is fascinating. How old are your children?


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
I just had to share this story, to give you MY parents view:

In 10th grade right before Christmas break I came home from a date with a hickey.

Ha!!! I swear I had not read this when I posted my hypothetical about the dance and the hickey!!! :LOL


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
What I suggested to her is that she turn her computer off at night and then turn it back on in the morning before she steps in the shower and that way it will be up and ready for use when she is showered and ready to start her day. A simple solution, but she wasn't happy with it, which is why the next step was to let her experience a day without access so that perhaps 3 minutes waiting time for it to start up would not seem like such a hardship.

I may very well get stung, but if you are paying the electricity bill and you think it's too much energy (though I'd guess it may be just a few pennies and am now curious to know what it would cost [I drive myself crazy and am so thankful for the Internet!!!]), I don't see ANYTHING wrong with your solution.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curious Me*
This is fascinating. How old are your children?

DS is 18 (it's years, not months :LOL ) and DD is 5


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
So are you saying shame and punishment are GD if people decide they are? I let my baby CIO, but I am still a respectful parent? I am still "AP' because I say I am?

ETA a question mark after 'respectful parent'.

What is ETA? CIO?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curious Me*
What is ETA? CIO?

Edited To Add

Crying It Out


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
with you while you're interrupting me" or "I'm not willing to pay $2.25 a load to wash the same laundry twice without it being worn in

This is somewhat familiar to me. How is it resolved if the clean clothes eventually did end up in the dirty laundry basket instead of being worn?


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Here's a question for those of you who say you don't use consequences in your home: Why did you open this thread?

It would really be nice if you could have the grace to allow those of us who wish to discuss consequences to do so in peace.


Huh????? After all that anger and crap flying from every direction, I thought this thread had finally calmed to a reasonably nice discussion. Here we go again........


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## Curious Me (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
I am proud to say though that all of these boundaries have been set in place with minimal yelling on my part...I am staying calm even though she lets me down time after time. But I cry a lot when she's not around because I worry so much.

I hope she comes through this and at 18 or 20 starts to see that I had to do it...it wasn't punishment, it was prevention.

Hang in there Carolyn. It sounds like you are doing a great job and I'm sure at some point she will definitely appreciate all of your efforts.


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