# Is this abuse?



## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Deleting this because aparently if you ask if something is abuse you're being holier than thou.
Clearly it was OBVIOUSLY not abuse. Why in the heck did I even ask?


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I wouldn't do anything. To me many people use words (doesn't make it right) like beat when they actually would never beat their kids.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

It sounds like super crappy parenting, but I don't know that any of it would qualify as abuse. And to be honest, if some stranger's kid was spitting cake at me, I would be super ticked off. I imagine she felt embarassed and wanted to seem as if she was doing something without actually having to get up and leave the meal. In a similar situation, I imagine empathizing and offering to help distract the kid would be more helpful than calling CPS.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

That is true. I still don't think she should threaten them though.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Lol. Yes I definately would have tried to help distract the kid but I had my hands full trying to get my own kid to sit nice and eat, without dh there. (Serious props to single parents.)
And this lady did have her dh there. Dunno where he was.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

swatting a napking because her kid is spitting cake during a wedding? just plain old bad parenting. High stress, empty threats, who knows... but there is nothing to call on, The kid probably didnt want to be at the wedding, maybe it was nap time, maybe mom didnt want to be there. Lots of dynamics at play. Id write it off as a horrible day for everyone.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

through AP eyes v. painful to watch.

thru regular mainstream eyes - not that bad.

i know how much social pressure REALLY stresses out parents. I am sure she didnt want to look like she had the worst behaved child and felt compelled to do something about it.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I frequently tell my DD there "will be a big beating" - it means i will chase her down and tickle her, and the more threateningly i say it the more funny she finds it. Words have the power the speaker has given them in that sort of situation. Obviously you were there and i was not, but maybe her kid knew fine she wouldn't beat him or let anyone else beat him? Our family frequently uses dramatic language, it's our "thing" - DH will say "that's it, it's over, i'm moving out" if i say "sorry dinner's gonna be five more minutes".

And the other day i screamed "well i DON'T" to something my DD1 said and dragged her screaming and crying in protest up the hill to our house. We all have terrible parenting moments, i know i have, despite my best efforts, i'm not perfect. I'm sure she was having a miserable time, and wanted her kid to give her a break for a bit. I would be pretty enraged if a kid spit cake at me and its parent did nothing, and equally i would be pretty ticked off if my DD spit cake at someone. When i read your post i thought of myself trying to catch/stop spitting with a napkin, kind of a roughish scoop-and-wipe motion. Maybe that was her aim?

You could try talking to her about it in a calmer moment, but unless you know her quite well (and even if you do) she may not take very kindly to being offered unwanted parenting advice. There is nothing to report to anyone as regards her actions.


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## babygirlie (Jun 4, 2009)

I would not call anyone. I don't feel there is any proof nor warrant. Is she a FB friend? Perhaps gentle parenting to parent needs to be used. How about an article not directed at her but on your account that gives alternative solutions to dealing with kid's out in public when they don't desire to be dealt with. She might get the hint and be angry but maybe she will read it. It sounds like it was high stressed and just plain old didn't know what to do.

What would you have done? I'm genuinely interested. I haven't hit that circumstance yet.

BTW I smack my kid with the napkin all the time. It helps her not to cry and she thinks it's funny (she doesn't like her face washed after eating). Smack isn't the right word. Just enough so she can hear her voice make funny sounds like that indian woowoowooo thing. *sigh youknowwhatimeanihope* And then she has no problem with me washing. She loves the feeling of a wet paper towel on her tongue. In a panic I might have tried the same thing but would have been jerky and unhelpful since I was anxious and nervous and discombobulated etc. :/

I like these threads because I can learn what not to do









Oh my bff ALWAYS threatens her kids with a beating. It's really hard to talk to her on the phone as she is always screaming at her kids telling them to shut up and that if they didn't do something they would be beaten within an inch of their lives. But then I also here her tell them she loves them and how even though they are dirt broke she is saving for her eldest to go to France and only the best schools for them. I've warned her about the telling her kids to shut up thing and she always apologizes now if she slips up and then of course when I had a kid I found myself saying it. Ugh. Not cool of me at all. I do need to learn to word things properly. Btw, her kids are always hanging on her and hugging her and loving on her (so much so I can see her struggling to walk over to me) so I'm sure they are not beaten to death. She just has a big mouth.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

If my kid starting spewing cake at the person next to him at a wedding, my reaction probably wouldn't be my best parenting moment. I might make a jerky movement toward his mouth in order to stop the flow of cake. I would not be happy with him at all...I would be likely to say something stronger than what I would feel great about later. I personally would not be talking about the child being _beaten_, and ITA that's very sad. But since she didn't actually beat him or take obvious steps toward doing so, IMO there is nothing to report.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The rate of physical and sexual abuse in foster care is multiple times greater than that in the general population. Thus, I never ever consider calling CPS unless the child is experiencing certain physical/sexual abuse. Bad parenting, physical punishment without leaving marks, and benign neglect are not reasons I would consider calling, ever.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Yes, it was uncomfortable to watch, but that's it. FTR, though, I don't think spitting cake at someone is "to be expected" behavior. I can't recall any child I've known ever spitting food at people.


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## blessedmama59 (Mar 3, 2010)

It is painful to watch/witness parents who choose threats/hitting to discipline a child, but unless it's extreme, I would say just stay out of it. She may use those methods to parent, but then again, she may have just been frustrated and embarassed by her son's behavior in public and caved to what much of society thinks of as "discipline". Like a pp mentioned, they were probably both stressed and tired (a wedding is not ideal for any toddler to deal) so the behavior, while not acceptable by any means, would be expected. If you're around her again in the future and see her use these techniques, maybe you could take the opportunity to bring up how gentle techniques would yield more effective results.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
If my kid starting spewing cake at the person next to him at a wedding, my reaction probably wouldn't be my best parenting moment. I might make a jerky movement toward his mouth in order to stop the flow of cake. I would not be happy with him at all.

Agree completely. Kids do not have the right to spew cake on others... regardless of how the cake tasted.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

If my child spit food at a guest at a wedding dinner, I can just about guarantee that wouldn't be my finest parenting moment. She didn't beat him, she didn't spank him, it sounds like she was reacting in the moment. I don't agree with how she reacted, but she didn't actually _do_ anything injurious to him. There's no cause to call CPS.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

The next time we have one of those threads where some posters express amazement that some awful people prefer not to take their kids to weddings, I will remember this thread.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I frequently tell my DD there "will be a big beating" - it means i will chase her down and tickle her, and the more threateningly i say it the more funny she finds it. Words have the power the speaker has given them in that sort of situation. Obviously you were there and i was not, but maybe her kid knew fine she wouldn't beat him or let anyone else beat him? Our family frequently uses dramatic language, it's our "thing" - DH will say "that's it, it's over, i'm moving out" if i say "sorry dinner's gonna be five more minutes".

And the other day i screamed "well i DON'T" to something my DD1 said and dragged her screaming and crying in protest up the hill to our house. We all have terrible parenting moments, i know i have, despite my best efforts, i'm not perfect. I'm sure she was having a miserable time, and wanted her kid to give her a break for a bit. I would be pretty enraged if a kid spit cake at me and its parent did nothing, and equally i would be pretty ticked off if my DD spit cake at someone. When i read your post i thought of myself trying to catch/stop spitting with a napkin, kind of a roughish scoop-and-wipe motion. Maybe that was her aim?

You could try talking to her about it in a calmer moment, but unless you know her quite well (and even if you do) she may not take very kindly to being offered unwanted parenting advice. There is nothing to report to anyone as regards her actions.

When you say there will be a big beating, though, you probably have a different tone of voice than this lady.
She was defiantely not trying to stop the cake from flying everywhere, as he was already done spitting. She looked like she wanted to hit him in the mouth but stopped half way through. I dunno. It was super weird.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygirlie* 
I would not call anyone. I don't feel there is any proof nor warrant. Is she a FB friend? Perhaps gentle parenting to parent needs to be used. How about an article not directed at her but on your account that gives alternative solutions to dealing with kid's out in public when they don't desire to be dealt with. She might get the hint and be angry but maybe she will read it. It sounds like it was high stressed and just plain old didn't know what to do.

What would you have done? I'm genuinely interested. I haven't hit that circumstance yet.

BTW I smack my kid with the napkin all the time. It helps her not to cry and she thinks it's funny (she doesn't like her face washed after eating). Smack isn't the right word. Just enough so she can hear her voice make funny sounds like that indian woowoowooo thing. *sigh youknowwhatimeanihope* And then she has no problem with me washing. She loves the feeling of a wet paper towel on her tongue. In a panic I might have tried the same thing but would have been jerky and unhelpful since I was anxious and nervous and discombobulated etc. :/

I like these threads because I can learn what not to do









Oh my bff ALWAYS threatens her kids with a beating. It's really hard to talk to her on the phone as she is always screaming at her kids telling them to shut up and that if they didn't do something they would be beaten within an inch of their lives. But then I also here her tell them she loves them and how even though they are dirt broke she is saving for her eldest to go to France and only the best schools for them. I've warned her about the telling her kids to shut up thing and she always apologizes now if she slips up and then of course when I had a kid I found myself saying it. Ugh. Not cool of me at all. I do need to learn to word things properly. Btw, her kids are always hanging on her and hugging her and loving on her (so much so I can see her struggling to walk over to me) so I'm sure they are not beaten to death. She just has a big mouth.

Yes she's mostly a facebook friend as she used to live out of town. She's my friend's sister so when I went to my friend's events she was often there. But she has now moved into town and I think I'll probably be seeing more of her. We've chatted on the phone before, about DS's milk allergy. But we're not super close by any means.

But yea I don't think I'll say anything. I might casually post an article on facebook in a couple days. lol. Or recommend a book I read called "without spanking or spoiling" (very good book btw)
Or if I'm around her more now since she's in town, Maybe she'll see my methods.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't know what there is to call anyone about. She made empty threats and hit him with a napkin? Not GD, but not abuse either. And it was a stressful situation so it might not be a good example of how she usual parents either.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

I guess it's just a shock to me, from what I'm used to seeing.

And I take it back, spitting is not "to be expected," but at least not too suprising when it happens.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I'd be uber pissed at my kid if he spit food at *anyone* under *any* circumstances. Thats gross, and wrong, and kids *know* that, including your average 2 yr old. I hardly think its "not too surprising" let alone "to be expected"... I mean really? You wouldn't be super shocked, pissed off and upset if your kid spit food at someone for no good reason?? REALLY!?!?

And... yeah, her response, is hardly surprsing, let alone reportable. Seems pretty mild, in the overall, tbh.







I mean, she didn't even spank him (which I've seen plenty of in public places around here), which is what I would expect most of my friends to do to their kids if they spit food at someone. Let alone at a wedding!!


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Just because her reaction was "hardly suprising" doesn't make it ok.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't think anyone would say her behavior was "OK" but neither was her son's - Even for a 2 year old, in a stressful situation, that is unacceptable behavior. If this is her first kid, it is quite possible she is still working out how to discipline in public areas, as it isn't an easy thing to do, especially in a new environment for both her and the toddler.

At most, I might say, you know, when my kid was 2 and did stuff like that, this is what worked for us. Sounds like she needs support and techniques, not critique and CPS


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## MissNo (Jul 24, 2009)

I think you are reading a lot into this woman's expressions and tone, (she looked like she wanted to hit her kid?) and it makes me uncomfortable.

My children spitting food at someone is not to be expected, and it is not okay. I won't giggle that behavior away, or pass it off on a developmental stage. You describe her actions as weird and jerky, maybe she didn't quite perform the action she intended to, or she was trying and he stopped before she did it?

If she wasn't physically harming her son, or verbally abusing him, then you have no reason to call CPS. The reaction might not have been all right _to you_, but that doesn't make it abusive.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
It sounds like super crappy parenting, but I don't know that any of it would qualify as abuse. And to be honest, if some stranger's kid was spitting cake at me, I would be super ticked off. I imagine she felt embarassed and wanted to seem as if she was doing something without actually having to get up and leave the meal. In a similar situation, I imagine empathizing and offering to help distract the kid would be more helpful than calling CPS.

I agree with this, and I also agree that a lot of threats to "beat" a child are actually threats of a swat on the bottom. Also unacceptable, but not worth a call to CPS. Let's hope it was a really bad day for her!


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Ok nvm. You all made your point. Forget I asked.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zebra15* 
swatting a napking because her kid is spitting cake during a wedding? just plain old bad parenting. High stress, empty threats, who knows... but there is nothing to call on, The kid probably didnt want to be at the wedding, maybe it was nap time, maybe mom didnt want to be there. Lots of dynamics at play. Id write it off as a horrible day for everyone.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i know how much social pressure REALLY stresses out parents. I am sure she didnt want to look like she had the worst behaved child and felt compelled to do something about it.

I haven't read past, but these two comments were more or less what I was thinking. My worst _ever_ parenting moments were in public with ds1. I have a pretty good idea what it looked like from outside, and it's _mortifying_. It didn't look/feel too great from inside, either.

It sounds like it was just an all around awful situation. I'd have been really uncomfortable if I were there, but I'm not sure how I'd handle it.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
Yes, it was uncomfortable to watch, but that's it. FTR, though, I don't think spitting cake at someone is "to be expected" behavior. I can't recall any child I've known ever spitting food at people.

That's what I thought. My baby is still a baby but my dd isn't and she never did that. None of my friends children have either.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

I know I joke all the time about how this kid or that kid needs a beating, or I'll say "I'm gonna beat you with a wet noodle!" to one of my little relatives but it's totally joking....however it might not be a good thing for people to hear, or for me to say in general. It's sort of part of my family's sense of humor.









And nobody is ever actually beaten, ever. Just with real abuse actually taking place in the world, I can see those words being very loaded and could be alarming for some people to hear.

In this situation I agree, doesn't sound like any real abuse was taking place just from what you saw. It was a wedding, that's like one of the most high-stress events in the world, especially for family.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
That's what I thought. My baby is still a baby but my dd isn't and she never did that. None of my friends children have either.

Yeah. Seems like it's one thing to spit food out, but to actually purposefully spit food at another person is a totally different behavior. Who knows what was going on in this case.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Neither has mine. Then maybe the sheer fact that her child was spittin in the first place is further evidence of her crappy parenting. Abusive, ok, no, but definately crappy.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bcblondie* 
Neither has mine. Then maybe the sheer fact that her child was spittin in the first place is further evidence of her crappy parenting. Abusive, ok, no, but definately crappy.

Really? My kid dropped trou in the Dunkin Doughnuts. I didn't threaten to beat him, but I did laugh hysterically and might have made noise about selling him on Ebay. I don't think that makes him a crappy kid or me a crappy parent-- it just means we're both human.







No one is perfect all the time (or even most the time) and I think judging someone based on a random moment is always going to result in a skewed vision. The kid did a kid thing, the mama reacted badly. Life happens.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Frick, why do I even try? When I say it's not suprising, everyone jumps down my throat. When I say it IS suprising, people jump down my throat.

I'm just gonna get a mod to delete this thread. I'm not sure why I bother.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

My dd has a friend who's parents freaked out at her when she touched a car with her fingernails and told her that if the person who owned the car had seen it and wanted to beat her butt hard they would let him. They were totally scary parents, not just on this one occassion, but I later found out that they didn't believe in spanking (from what I saw on many other occassions emotional abuse was more their thing). I don't think texting will do any good. If you feel that you need to call CPS because of the hitting then that is your choice. It sounds borderline, but many moms snap at their kids at public events and you aren't even sure that she was serious, that she did hit him a second time, or even that she intended to hit him the first time (she may have been a little to rough about wiping his face because she was frustrated with the spitting).

I do think spitting on another person is a pretty big deal, it would be humiliating to have a child doing this, and it is difficult to not overreact in public because you feel you are being judged. I remember when my dd picked up spitting from daycare and how at a loss I was for what to do at first. I can't imagine being at someone's special day and having my child try out spitting on her neighbor. Now that my dd is older I don't care what other people think, but when she was younger I did worry about what I was doing and what other people thought (I am sure many people will say they felt totally confident from day one but not everyone does and that affects how you react).

Also, a lot of mom's on this board have snapped and hit their kids once. You may someday snap and do the same, I recall seeing many threads by people who were sure they never would. You have no way of knowing that this wasn't something that pushed her to snap nor can you assume she is a bad parent because her child does something that isn't socially acceptable. I doubt that anyone gets a perfect child who never does something annoying and inappropriate in public whether it is spitting, throwing toys, hitting another persons child, grabbing toys at a playdate, or making a completely inappropriate comment to someone else, unless of course they don't go in public. If your child has never done anything wrong in front of other people than I can see how you can't understand frustration though.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

One girl, I do very much agree with you. Parents are scared others are thinking "her kid spit and the mom did nothing"
I have snapped before. I think we all have. But I can't think of any time I snapped in public, off the top of my head. Having people watching actually makes me a better parent, I think. Especially since I'm young, and people probably think I'm some dumb teenager that got knocked up and shouldn't deserve to have kids. I feel the need to prove them wrong. That I can effectively parent in a loving manner, and there's nothing else I'd want more in the world than to be the SAHM that I get to be.

Sorry. Got off on a tangent there.
But yea it definately wasn't a wiping motion, and she definately didn't get any of the food off his face. She like, crunched it up and popped him in the mouth with it. Like I said. It was very weird.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bcblondie* 
Frick, why do I even try? When I say it's not suprising, everyone jumps down my throat. When I say it IS suprising, people jump down my throat.

I'm just gonna get a mod to delete this thread. I'm not sure why I bother.









... i dont think anyone is trying to jump down your throat. it might feel that way, but for the most part they are just answering the question you asked.







s

the hardest thing with AP is picking and choosing your 'battles' this is just one thing, crappy as it can be, that i would let go. she may have reacted in a way you would have not, but you only got to see a snap shot of the day.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

That's true. But most people were able to say "no it's not abuse" in a less "you're a stupid moron" way. That's all.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

*


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

"beat you" and "diaper" should never appear in the same story. What the mom did was wrong.

Different question from "should I call a cop" which is basically what the "abuse" question is.

I often offer a hand in these sorts of times.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I certainly hope every instance of my kids' bad behavior isn't proof I'm a bad parent. My second kid is easy easy easy and I'm sure I look like the world's best parent based on her behavior. Oh, but the first. She's a firecracker. She's generally pretty good now that she's 8, but she hasn't always been 8, and man oh man there were some tough times.

How well behaved they are is partly based on us, but largely based on their own personality and temperament. Some kids are more challenging and push the envelope more than others. And, from my experience, do it more in public than in private. If you see them pushing the envelope somewhere, that doesn't mean the parents are crappy parents.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

nm


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm just trying to say that no matter what I say here, people are disagreeing with me. So I'm done. I don't know why I try.

I know that OBVIOUSLY spitting does not make you a crappy parent. You think my kid is perfectly behaved all the time? no, of course not! You think I never have a bad day or snap? Of course I do.

Fine, don't take what I say seriously in the future. I don't care! I'm done with this thread.
And no I never post in the new york times. I'm in Winnipeg. ... not sure what you're getting at there. I don't claim to have a recipe to fix all children...


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

OP, your question is simply "Is this abuse?". Which tells me you came here looking for guidance and insight because you weren't sure of the answer to that question.

You've got lots of great responses, and I think you've been able to see the situation in a different light. And FWIW, I don't know why some people have responded to you so harshly. What's so wrong about taking a child's welfare to heart? Especially when you took the time to ask for advice instead of running out to call CPS.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Thank you Tway. That is indeed what I asked. And I feel some of the responses are either saying I'm dumb for even thinking it might be, or that I posted simply to bash this woman.

ETA. And I think the fact that some people did agree that it was "borderline abuse" justifies my point of view. I'm not the only one that felt this was unnacceptable.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

i think some points have been made quite clear... the OP simply was asking for advice, not to be snarky or over the top... just advice. this thread is getting a little out of control for my liking.

i am sorry, OP. i am glad you were able to sift through the responces to find what you were looking for.







s


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Thank you so much LB


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
OP, your question is simply "Is this abuse?". Which tells me you came here looking for guidance and insight because you weren't sure of the answer to that question.

You've got lots of great responses, and I think you've been able to see the situation in a different light. And FWIW, I don't know why some people have responded to you so harshly. What's so wrong about taking a child's welfare to heart? Especially when you took the time to ask for advice instead of running out to call CPS.


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