# how much $ for teen wardrobe?



## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

My SD just turned 14. She moved in with us 2 years ago. Grandparents on her mom's side are wealthy and have "helped" her mom her whole life. Mom works in the family business sometimes and so does my SD occasionally, but that is out of state. For the 2 previous years we gave her a large allotment for her to spend on her wardrobe. In addition to that we bought some staples. Some underwear, non-brand jeans, basic tshirts and sweaters. Partially we were trying to ease her transition to a new house, new state, new school (where most of the kids are well off). We aren't struggling, but we don't have a lot of extra money either.

Well, my SD is spoiled, lazy, shallow, and a slob. She is completely ungrateful for anything she is given and has high expectations for what she is owed. This is beyond the typical teen attitude. Given this information, what do you think is fair to spend for her clothing yearly/6months/whatever. I don't expect her clothing size to really change much. But maybe I'm wrong about that?

We need to discuss with her in the next month or so because she is going to start asking for $ for new summer clothes, and then for back to school clothes. We live where winter temps are rarely below 40.

Thanks for any comments/advice.


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

My 15-year-old has never had a clothing allotment. Usually, everything she gets is from her birthday or Christmas, or purchased herself with gift cards or her work money (but she does not like to touch her money if she can possibly avoid it.) Last Fall, I did spend about 200 dollars on basics because I was mortified at how bad a shape most of her stuff was. I hadn't done that since her last big growth spurt at 13!

I generally treat her once a season when the sales are right. Usually not more than 40 dollars a pop. So, for me, that's about 160 a year for "some fun new things for the season." Another 100 in holiday/birthday clothing items. About 80 in shoes. So, about 340 a year (though, like I said, she does get a good amount of clothing and gift cards from other family members around the holidays.)

She doesn't suffer for the low budget wardrobe. She's a pro at hitting those sales. She discovered every season Hollister does a 40 percent of their clearance prices. Last two seasons, she was walking out of there with 4 or 5 items for under 40 dollars!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

....spoiled, lazy, shallow, and a slob...? Sounds like her dad did an excellent job parenting her. I would say $200/year as a given and the rest she can earn doing chores, babysitting, birthdays, etc.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I found that, while my daughter didn't add much height after 14, her body did change a fair bit - necessitating new clothes. She's always been very good at finding good deals, but I cant even guesstimate how much I might have spent on clothes for her.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

She was raised by her mom. He does accept responsibility, but most of this it's from mom. We all did counseling together. She showed up twice. We've spent the last 2 years trying every thing out there to get her to take even the tiniest bit of responsibility but it's not working. She just doesn't care about anything but herself & what everyone will give her sadly. ANYWAY. We're working on it.

She has no ability to earn $ here & she no longer gets an allowance. I wonder if our best bet is to determine what items/basics to get her & anything brand name she buys from birthday/holiday money.

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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

She's 14 and doesn't know the value of a dollar or hard work. I would make her earn every single dime by doing chores around house. Every single dime.

I know some parents are opposed to paying for chores, but this kid needs an intervention. I'd make a basic chore chart of what she needs to do every single day to earn a weekly allowance (get some stickers), and also a list of extra jobs that earn extra money.

At 14, some reasonable jobs are:

1. pick up own room every single day (make a list of what that means)

2. clean off dinner table

3. make own lunch for school

4. do own laundry

5. scrub down bathroom once a week (make a list of what that means)

There are soooo many other things, such as yard work, cleaning cat boxes, vacuuming, etc.

In such a situation, if her grades are unacceptable, I think it would be fine to pay for good grades.

But stop GIVING her anything. She needs to learn to earn things, or she will be a mess as an adult.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

My dd only gets clothes as she outgrows them, gifts at Christmas/birthday or she can buy them herself. I would say for brand new basic clothes (not expensive brands) to update what she already owns budgeting $400 maximum each year is probably appropriate. You could shop more frequently but in smaller amounts- like $30 a month- so she doesn't blow it on something too expensive. Shopping sales or buying used clothing would make it go farther.

Quote:


> She has no ability to earn $ here & she no longer gets an allowance. I wonder if our best bet is to determine what items/basics to get her & anything brand name she buys from birthday/holiday money.


Why doesn't she have the ability to earn any money? Can you explain that?

I would sit her down and bring out all the bills your family has and budget as a family. It sounds like she has no clue about money and maybe it is because she isn't a part of the budgeting process.

I absolutely would only buy her basics if she is unappreciative to you. If she wants more expensive clothing, or clothing she does not need but merely wants, then I would have her earn it. I have given my dd a list of things she can do around the house to earn things she wants.


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## Ragana (Oct 15, 2002)

There are two questions here. I think good advice was given above for the attitude issue - I'm sure it's tough given the way it seems your SD was raised!

As for the $ budget, I am struggling with this as well. My DD is 13 & growing like crazy. She is already 5'5" and wears size 8 shoes, but thin, so she's basically in juniors/women's clothes. We shop thrift shops and Target for her, and I think $200 is too low, frankly. Maybe your SD's size is not changing as much as my DD's, but just getting her 3-4 pairs of Target (inexpensive) pants every 4 months or so runs to $100. She truly grows out of them that fast - hope she stops growing soon!







She knows how to shop thrift shops for shirts and accessories, thank goodness, and is saving some gift cards for summer stuff, but shoes are $$. I want her to wear decent ones, so that's at least $40 a pop, too. Even Target shoes cost that now.

I guess I would figure out what you consider a basic wardrobe - say, 5 pants, 7 t-shirts, 2 sweaters, 2 pr. shoes, etc. - and then price it out at your local stores, and have her pay for any extras by doing chores as mentioned above. Thanks for the thread - I have to figure this out and plan a budget for DD's summer stuff as well instead of just buying stuff as we go along.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Excellent input from Ragana, IMO.

New bras? That fit well and support properly? Are not $15 from Target. Yes, you can get good sales, but not always when they are needed. My daughter (19) went from a C to a D in the 4 mos she was in college. She NEEDED new bras. As an athlete, her sizes change from beginning of season to end, and then (not quite) back later. She will literally change jean sizes in the space of a month. Sometimes she can go back to what she wore before, but not always.

Brand names also often last better than non-brands. I spent too many years replacing clothes that wore out before being grown out of to waste that money now. I would rather spend a bit more, hoping she'll be able to wear them again but knowing that they will be in shape to pass on if not, than spend less for stuff I will have to throw out.

I would probably go with ~$200/season for basics. Then she can earn money for extras.


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ragana*
> 
> As for the $ budget, I am struggling with this as well. My DD is 13 & growing like crazy.


When a kid is still growing rapidly, I think it's very difficult to set long-term budget. Especially with teens, they aren't as consistent in their growth spurts as they are when they are little. How can you really budget for what you don't know they'll need?

I added up a figure for this post purposes on what I average for my DD a year but we don't actually set it as a year long budget. We wait until there is a need and then we look at the family budget and see what we can spend at that time. For DD, that meant I had to shell out an extra 200 in one pop this year when I saw that all her basics, while still fit because she is done growing, were threadbare after 2+years of use. I had to buy DS all new pants this fall because they were 3 inches too short and no way he'd make it to Christmas in them. However, I swear all of 2011 and most of 2012, all I bought him were new socks and underwear!

Certainly, set a budget on what is fun in a wardrobe. For us, that's about 40 dollars a season for a girl who works really hard, pays for several of her own things (like her phone) and never asks for anything. If a child is acting entitled, they can earn money the money you'd spend doing work from you (as it id difficult for young teens to find paying jobs outside the home these days.)


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks so much for the additional input!! I've "submitted my proposal" LOL to DH about this issue. I suggested we set a list of what we will buy her (# jeans, # tshirts, etc) and the max amts we will pay for item. This list is small. Then that she must keep bedroom & bathroom straightened daily and cleaned weekly for a couple weeks before we will consider paying for chores. After that she will keep those things daily/weekly and be allowed to do chores for money IF AND ONLY IF those things continue.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> She's 14 and doesn't know the value of a dollar or hard work. I would make her earn every single dime by doing chores around house. Every single dime.
> 
> ...


So my thoughts are pretty in line with what you posted Linda. You are right, she doesn't know the value of a penny or hard work. That was actually the suggested approach of her counselor (from before she moved in with us) that she be given an allowance, no strings attached. This DID NOT work. Neither did, you get X amt weekly but you are expected to keep up your room bathroom. Thank you for the list, that really helps. She does get decent grades, though it's my opinion that it's more because the teachers are trying to meet metrics than because she actually puts in the effort she should.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
> 
> My dd only gets clothes as she outgrows them, gifts at Christmas/birthday or she can buy them herself. I would say for brand new basic clothes (not expensive brands) to update what she already owns budgeting $400 maximum each year is probably appropriate. You could shop more frequently but in smaller amounts- like $30 a month- so she doesn't blow it on something too expensive. Shopping sales or buying used clothing would make it go farther.
> Quote:
> ...


She can't earn money. We are going to discuss her earning around the house (see my comment above), but allowance has been a HUGE problem at our house. She became aware last night when her dad told her he wasn't going to give her any $ for an outing with friends she wanted to go to this weekend. Previously she has had either allowance, birthday/holiday money (she burned through all of it in 1 month), or last year we would actually pay for some outings because she was having such a hard time adjusting to the new state/school and didn't have many friends.

As for earning money outside the house - she is 100% completely irresponsible. I won't even let her watch our toddler. She lies and I do not trust her. In addition, she doesn't actually have the drive to do anything. She talked about giving clarinet lessons and posting notices in Starbucks. I said that's a good idea & didn't worry about the details of such a thing because I knew she would never do it.

I like the idea of showing her the budget, but there's a problem there I'd need to discuss with her dad. We don't really want her mom knowing the details of our finances. However, that's "leftover" caution from before the custody agreement was changed. Now that she lives with us we have full time residential and joint legal. There is a child support requirement in the documentation that we do not ask for or get from her mom. This is complicated and would take too long to explain why. In summary, we probably don't need to be this cautious anymore.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ragana*
> 
> There are two questions here. I think good advice was given above for the attitude issue - I'm sure it's tough given the way it seems your SD was raised!
> 
> ...


THANKFULLY she isn't really growing, and has been in adult smalls for over a year now. She might get a little taller, she may or may not pad out a little in the next couple of years. That's all I really expect.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Excellent input from Ragana, IMO.
> 
> ...


Good point about the bras. However. She does her own laundry already, but DOES NOT take care of anything. I absolutely will not buy her better brands that will always be on the floor or crammed into a drawer. Not because she doesn't have sufficient drawer/closet space, but because she is too lazy to care for it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whatsnextmom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm going to work this idea into it as well. Definitely trying to get things "all at once" doesn't work either. That's how we end up with purchases like "i need pants for the band concert next week".

Again HUGE thanks to everyone participating in this conversation. My emotions about my SD are really confused right now. I just can't stand her and I want to make sure I'm being fair and not letting my emotions cloud my judgement. It's not her fault that she is who she is, and it's our job as her parents to get her to grow out of what she's become.

If anyone wants to weigh in with how much you would pay for specific chores I'd love to hear it. May start a new topic about that when I have time too.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Have you guys talked to her about her entitled attitude? When I was this age I acted entitled and manipulative because it worked but also because I had no idea I was doing it. I remember my stepdad being so angry about it in family therapy and it was the first time I heard there was anything wrong with my behavior. The way it was handled was hurtful and juvenile. If they had gently talked to me instead of assuming I was a bad person I would have changed before things got so bad we all needed outside intervention.

I have heard that there are also some executive functioning disorders that make organization harder than what is normal for a teen so I also suggest ruling that out before making changes that could cause a lot of hurt and resistance.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ragana*
> 
> I guess I would figure out what you consider a basic wardrobe - say, 5 pants, 7 t-shirts, 2 sweaters, 2 pr. shoes, etc. - and then price it out at your local stores, and have her pay for any extras by doing chores as mentioned above. Thanks for the thread - I have to figure this out and plan a budget for DD's summer stuff as well instead of just buying stuff as we go along.


This is what I would do.

I would say my 14 yr olds wardrobe is around 300-400 a year.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neonalee*
> 
> Again HUGE thanks to everyone participating in this conversation. My emotions about my SD are really confused right now. I just can't stand her and I want to make sure I'm being fair and not letting my emotions cloud my judgement. It's not her fault that she is who she is, and it's our job as her parents to get her to grow out of what she's become.


Sorry to hear this.









Any baby steps you can take to improve the situation? What does she like to do? Do you get any alone time with her?


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

yes it has been discussed multiple times. most recently last month. We were so fed up we went for a drive (me & her dad) and after some productive conversation came up with exactly that. She didn't realize, didn't know how to react other than try to lie her way or of it etc. so when it came time to discuss her most recent episode we asked her about that. We even told her she could have a do over right then and there. Told her exactly what expectations were, how she should have responded when being called in her lies. and we realized that she didn't care. it doesn't matter to her if we catch her. no remorse, no attempt to make things right. nothing but "why does it matter if the bathroom isn't clean, so what if I'm late? etc. it was a very sad night. We felt so defeated.

We keep talking about getting therapy. Maybe that should be a financial priority but we've already committed our extra to her club volleyball. She doesn't admit to how important that is to her and even makes up excuses when she is feeling especially lazy (we still make her go) but her having 3 hours of VB twice a week really does help her so we are committed to the season.

that and shopping & being online are the only things she likes to do. I'm not sure if I can manage to be alone with her right now I have so much anger. her father is the same. We do eat dinner together every night. such a small thing.


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## EVEP (Jan 24, 2013)

Her attitude sounds like it sucks. I was like this when I was a teen sadly- and I HATE admitting that. With that being said, at 16 I had a job. We were not poor or hard on money, but a job REALLY helped. At 16 I worked in a retail store. I also babysat and had an odd job at a local farm where they sold ice cream. (All the high school kids worked there!) I think she needs to understand somewhat the responsibilities of being an "adult", since she feels so entitled by her attitude. I'd tell her exactly how you feel. Unappreciated, hurt, etc. and until you can see a positive change in her attitude, her so called allotment on clothing would reflect that. My dad once told me, money isn't everything and family is all you have. I didn't understand that until I had my own children and all of my so called "friends" (besides 1 or 2) moved away and we lost touch. It is very hard for teens to understand anything in the real world. They shouldn't have to understand every single thing, but they should understand respect and responsibility for how they treat others. Good luck mama!


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I commend you on keeping up her VB. I know that, with MY daughter, being involved in her sport is imperative in keeping her on an even keel. Always has been. It's why I kept her playing year 'round.

As for the rest... My daughter did a lot of volunteer work. Her only paying job, until last summer, was dog sitting for our neighbors. The fact that she was doing other stuff that would help her college apps, benefited others, etc., made me more willing to shell out for more than necessities. Her generosity with what she does have helps, too. When she does get paid, she has no problem with hitting the grocery store for what we might need, and paying for it herself.

If I were your husband, I would insist that she do SOMETHING. If she can't work for real, she needs to find something else to do. Help someone in the neighborhood, volunteer at the library, etc. She needs to remember that she will (hopefully?) be looking at college soon, and they look for more now than just grades. Even just playing with a club team... isn't enough. My daughter played club, but getting college money for playing took more than that. There were tournaments - local AND national (where the scouts go). That is not cheap. My kiddo knew that, and helped as she cojuld. And showed a bit of gratitude for what *I* sacrificed for her to go. Your SD needs a dose of reality. And her Dad should be the one to administer it. IMO.


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neonalee*
> 
> yes it has been discussed multiple times. most recently last month. We were so fed up we went for a drive (me & her dad) and after some productive conversation came up with exactly that. She didn't realize, didn't know how to react other than try to lie her way or of it etc. so when it came time to discuss her most recent episode we asked her about that. We even told her she could have a do over right then and there. Told her exactly what expectations were, how she should have responded when being called in her lies. and we realized that she didn't care. it doesn't matter to her if we catch her. no remorse, no attempt to make things right. nothing but "why does it matter if the bathroom isn't clean, so what if I'm late? etc. it was a very sad night. We felt so defeated.
> 
> ...


Even in the best of circumstances, teenagers have the power to enrage you. There are phases where it is hard to "like" them. My own DD was not fun between 13.5 and 14.5. She didn't fight us... she was just this passive lump who hid in her room in self-pity..... and this is a girl who has a long history of high activity and achievement. She drove me batty. I found myself picking fights with her just to get her to SAY or DO something! In her case, we got her out of a bad schooling situation and she started to rejoin the world of the living. We're doing great now. It may be more complicated with your SD and her history but know that teens go through this stuff even when, as parents, you try to do everything right.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I've been thinking about this thread.

First, maybe it would be helpful to make a list of things you do like about your dsd or her good qualities. Right now you seem really frustrated with her and it probably makes things extra tense in your relationship. Thinking about some of her good points might help you relate to her better.

Second, if she has always lived with people who just bought her stuff or handed her money with no expectations and your family finances have been somewhat of a secret to her then I think it is hard to expect that she will somehow understand and behave differently very quickly. She is only 14 and doesn't sound like a mature 14. She is going to need more guidance and lessons than a child who has grown up differently. It doesn't mean she can't turn around with lots of positive encouragement and good examples from now on. I would be as honest as you can be with her about what circumstances are and involve her in making financial choices.

Third, I have some thoughts about work and money.

It may be extra important for you and your dh to support her earning in some way and managing money because she needs to learn the value of money and responsibility. You can't really learn these things without experiencing it and that includes failing and learning from your mistakes.

If she ever comes up with an idea of earning money get on board enthusiastically even if you don't think it will work out. Help her make those signs and develop a plan. If she fails to follow through at giving clarinet lessons it isn't going to kill anyone and she learns a lesson when she doesn't earn money. She has also felt your support and encouragement for trying.

We hired some teenagers to mow our lawn and they were basically wonderful kids, great students, involved in the school/community, etc but were horrible at getting our lawn mowed. They would procrastinate and need to be nagged to show up. They would leave the job half done without saying anything. The consequence is that we eventually hired a regular lawn service and they lost that source of extra spending money. We gave them a fair chance though. In future money earning opportunities, they might care enough to try harder.

Instead of saying your dsd can not work, I would really brainstorm with her all the ways she could earn money from others or you. Maybe she would simply like to sell her old clothes to help pay for new ones. Maybe she'd like to collect cans or bottles to be redeemed. Maybe she is good at making things or doing computer stuff and could earn money that way. There are ways to earn money that don't involve babysitting and maybe match her better. http://kims3003.hubpages.com/hub/Great-Ways-For-Teens-to-Earn-Money http://www.teensguidetomoney.com/earning/paid-jobs/

It could be helpful to make a list of chores and dollar amounts. If she chooses to do something from the list then she gets paid. When I pay my dd to do a chore it kind of depends on how much effort is involved but usually between $0.10 to $5.00 and I give her the money right away for that time. My dd isn't very motivated to work but when she wants something like a game system or games she will take these opportunities to earn money and save up for what she wants.

If your dd can't/won't earn money but you give her control over a strict amount of money to pay for her expenses (lunches, clothing, school fees) and extras and help her budget it could still help her learn to manage money. If she blows her money and has to go without because of it that may be an important lesson that she needs to get.

I hope things improve with her.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neonalee*
> 
> that and shopping & being online are the only things she likes to do.


How much time does she spend online?

It's another carrot you can use to motivate behavior.

My 14 year old is limited to one hour per day on school days, 2 hours per day on non-school days. We reserve the right to kick her off the grid for misbehavior (it's only happened once, but did wonders for her attitude).

I think that most parents and step parents of teens have times when they don't like their kids. People only have children because they start out as little cute babies who can't talk. If they started out as teens, NO ONE would reproduce.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

I only have a minute but I wanted to say thanks again. I'm reading everything as I can and I really appreciate the continued discussion.

Funny you should say that Linda - there was a HUGE blow up between her and her dad last night because he turned off the internet, fully intending to turn it back on, but apparently didn't do it quickly enough to suit her. Her "need" for it suddenly went from "need to contact X to firm up plans for the next day" to "report is due, homework confusion, and need to contact X". Since she NEVER EVER gets up in arms about homework, we figure she was waiting on a txt from her current crush.

Anyway, going to process all the info again, maybe have dad read this too.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

May I ask how the allowance did not work? My kids are not teens yet, but I had planned on giving an allowance and they being responsible for certain expenses. I am wondering, what can go wrong with allowances?


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

Seems pretty typical behavior. Agree, needs improvement, but common with most teens.

I also have similar aged. Can also say that the op's dsd past is probably having a large impact on her. Sounds like lots of key people have dropped the ball on her
Not to mention having wealthy grandparents and now in a well off area. I think the child just doesn't know better and now is a hard time to start.
That being said. Kids can still grow a lot at this age. Pressure at school to look nice. I would increase the clothing/ entertainment fund. I would encourage her to babysit/pet sit. My dd get $5/hr for babysitting her sister. All situations are different, but my kids don't get birthday money, so I don't know how much op can rely on the child bringing in $.

Best tip I have is covering all needs and going in half on wants

Not to scare op more, but a huge concern of mine for my daughter, which kinda relates to her dsd, is a teen girl that looking for love in all the wrong places

Best of luck. Agree with pp, teen years are difficult in the best of situations. A girl growing up with a questionable relationship to her mom that is now in a different state, i see a lot of struggles ahead


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

Spoiled, lazy, sloppy... Yep, sounds about right. My DD 15 is a great kid, by all accounts, but she is also all of those things... And super entitled. NOT things she learned from us. Teenagers are inherently self absorbed. They expect everything. I try to remember that every time DD says things like "I am going to hang out with

" instead of "hey, can you give me a ride to hang out with ----" or "where's dessert" instead of "can I have dessert". Yes, it's annoying and upsetting, but they will grow out of it. Just remember it is not your job as a parent to hand them their ass, the "real world" will take care of that... All you can do is try and set them up for reality, give them the tools they need to succeed and not worry about the arrogance/entitlement unless they are flat out defiant... Then I would get a therapist involved.

We are in a similar financial situation, maybe struggling a little more, but we give them $200 "back to school money" each to buy a backpack, a pair of shoes, and whatever else they want. This is where the lesson lies... Learning the value of money and not blowing it all on cute t shirts only to find you didn't buy a single jacket or long sleeved shirt when the cold rolls around. Of course there was a learning curve for both DDs, and we either made them do chores to earn money for the stuff they forgot about or said "here's $10, we're going to the thrift store". They did the same thing with all the Christmas money and gift cards they got (and they get super spoiled at Christmas with 4 parents and 6 grandmas, so they each got at least $300 in cash and cards), blew it all on shirts and shoes and now they don't have money for cute spring clothes.... But they will figure it out eventually. In the summer time, we buy them a new swimsuit and sandals, maybe some shorts and a couple tank tops... Not more than $100 per kid. So $300 a year seems reasonable for a teen who isn't growing much.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *babymommy2*
> 
> May I ask how the allowance did not work? My kids are not teens yet, but I had planned on giving an allowance and they being responsible for certain expenses. I am wondering, what can go wrong with allowances?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chel*
> 
> Seems pretty typical behavior. Agree, needs improvement, but common with most teens.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jdsf*
> 
> Spoiled, lazy, sloppy... Yep, sounds about right. My DD 15 is a great kid, by all accounts, but she is also all of those things... And super entitled. NOT things she learned from us. Teenagers are inherently self absorbed. They expect everything. I try to remember that every time DD says things like "I am going to hang out with
> 
> ...


Quick response before leaving work: I think the allowance didn't work because she wasn't ever taught about how to use money? And because she wasn't ever expected to contribute to keeping the house/family running before moving in with us. Her mom is a slob too by the way.

And chel - I hear ya. And it's part of the reason I keep posting here about her. I get those reminders that it's possible we are the only thing between her and a really bad future. Possible. She's had another change of heart after the last blow up (this happens routinely). We are going to really try to make the most of it. And we are really going to try and get her in therapy. There are internal issues that really need to be addressed.

thanks jdsf







it always helps to feel not alone. My ride is here, bbl.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

To answer the money part: I supply all the basics (jeans, t-shirts, sweaters, a warm jacket, shoes, socks, and underwear). It all comes from thrift stores (socks and undies from Target). I replace them as they are outgrown, worn out, or I come across a good deal. DD, 17, has her own money (babysitting), and buys anything else she wants - fancy boots, make-up, whatever else. DS, 16, can earn $ around the house for any extras (clothing is not so important to him, but he wants video games). This boy does go through some shoes, though!

It seems like the relationship issues are a much more important matter than the money or clothing. I would really suggest family therapy. Your relationship sounds so adversarial - it doesn't have to be that way. Do you and she have any fun together? Is there anything you like about her? Does she get any time alone with just Dad - not lecturing, problem-solving time, just fun, bonding stuff? The teen years are tough enough in any case. But without a strong bond forged through childhood, it can be really hard to get any buy-in. I would work on improving the relationships, before working on "fixing" her - attitude, entitlement, lack of participation around the house may improve on their own, when she feels more attached to the family. Not a quick fix by any means, but so worth it.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> To answer the money part: I supply all the basics (jeans, t-shirts, sweaters, a warm jacket, shoes, socks, and underwear). It all comes from thrift stores (socks and undies from Target). I replace them as they are outgrown, worn out, or I come across a good deal. DD, 17, has her own money (babysitting), and buys anything else she wants - fancy boots, make-up, whatever else. DS, 16, can earn $ around the house for any extras (clothing is not so important to him, but he wants video games). This boy does go through some shoes, though!
> 
> It seems like the relationship issues are a much more important matter than the money or clothing. I would really suggest family therapy. Your relationship sounds so adversarial - it doesn't have to be that way. Do you and she have any fun together? Is there anything you like about her? Does she get any time alone with just Dad - not lecturing, problem-solving time, just fun, bonding stuff? The teen years are tough enough in any case. But without a strong bond forged through childhood, it can be really hard to get any buy-in. I would work on improving the relationships, before working on "fixing" her - attitude, entitlement, lack of participation around the house may improve on their own, when she feels more attached to the family. Not a quick fix by any means, but so worth it.


At the risk of taking this thread off topic (though related) I'm wondering. How do you forge a bond with a teen like this? I've been thinking about it since the question was posted upthread and I seriously cannot think of anything I like about her. Nothing. I can think of a couple things I used to like about her. Many years ago. She's been with us nearly 2 years now and the entire time has been hell, with small windows (usually a few days long) of her not being a representation of every trait I sincerely dislike. We had an OK dinner last night (her dad was at work). She told me about all the parties her friends are having coming up (mini-golf, bowling, trampoline party, etc. all expensive) and she's sad because she will miss some due to her VB schedule. I feel like this is her prep work for figuring out how to go to the party (because she's brought it up multiple times and because it wouldn't be the first time she tried to get out of her commitment to go to a party) but I let it go and just emphasized with her and reminded her she could go once she got back.

Even when she was young I disliked planning on/going on outings with her because EVERY SINGLE TIME halfway through she would have a tantrum about something, usually about not getting something she wanted. Now all she wants to do is things that involve spending money, otherwise she's not interested.

Agree 100% about the therapy for all of us.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

A quick suggestion... Have you thought about getting her involved in volunteering? My partner is a Special Ed teacher and both our girls help out with the summer school program (transitioning young children with special needs into a school setting half days), and I must say, they both behave wayyyy better after doing that. I think for teens, sometimes it takes seeing people in a situation worse than your own to realize what you have to be thankful for, and it really builds self esteem... It seems like a lot of teens "act out" when they feel like all they get is criticism and it subconsciously affects their self esteem. Sometimes, doing something "good" is enough to make them realize they can make a difference and don't have to act out to get "negative" attention.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I read a book for teens that suggested talking and truly listening to what interests them is a great starting place as is learning more about their interests and sharing what you learned.

Reading some books about teens may also help. There is also an exercise where you ask tours is it true, is it absolutely true, how do I know it is true, how for I know it is not true. You list the reasoning for each of the last two questions with actual reflection and effort. It is useful when in a time where you have extremely negative thoughts about a situation that make it hard for you to think of other explanations. It sounds like for two years your dsd has been everything you don't like to the point where you see a child as having no good qualities at all so I suggest you look at proving that is true first.

You seem to be saying that you don't like her and your husband can't stand to be in the same room she is in. Therapy for it her won't fix anything if she just continues to return to a toxic home where she is seen to have no good qualities at all by the adults who are supposed to care and where she has faced resentment for the two years she has lived there. I really think you should start by seeking a counselor for the adults to talk through some of the resentment then go for family counseling.

Counseling for just her may give her a safe haven from constant resentment but it won't change how she views the rest of the family. Ime it can actually make your family seem worse because the counselor cares and they don't.

Is there any chance she could go.back to her grandparents or mother or was the situation abusive. You have had her for two years with no effect so it might not be the worst thing to consider if a family wide change in how she is perceived isn't going to happen.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

In addition to the suggestions given, I suggest joining a forum for step families to get help on dealing with your SD.

A while back I started dating a man whose son caused a lot of problems in our relationship. A step family forum helped me a lot.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks! I love the volunteering idea. I've been thinking about it a lot for the past few months. I should try to find a way for us to do that together. Maybe before my surgery if possible, though that might be too much of a rush.

One_girl, I hear you. This is so complex I'm not even sure how to say it. First off I'll say, I know as the adult it is my job to be the bigger person and that we need to teach her/grow her. And I know this is all excuses sorta, but it doesn't change the fact that these are my feelings. We have wanted her to move in with us for YEARS. Her mother would not allow it. Their relationship is not abusive in the common sense of the word, but we here at mothering would consider it so. SD has reported for a long time how her mother talks to her, treats her, hits her. However, we have known for a long time that SD is not reliable. And now that she lives with us we have been on the other side of her lies/exaggerations. Over the years both sets of parents have learned (sometimes multiple times) to check with the others before flipping out about what SD tells us about the other.

Anyway, we decided to move out of state, SD's mom's parents gently suggested to her that SD should be allowed to see a bigger world and come with us. We believe their relationship had become extremely adversarial by then (of course, she was 11) and mom wasn't dealing very well. I kinda sympathize with her. While I didn't expect it to be easy, and I believe I had pretty accurate expectations of the transition, what I didn't expect was that SD would spend every waking moment in our house doing her absolute best to make us hate her so we would send her back. She admitted to this. Last year was HELL. Pure hell. We did as much as possible to give her opportunities to make friends, but as parents there is only so much you can do. That year is the root of our exhaustion.

By the end of the school year she was no longer completely against being here. In fact, she doesn't want to move in with mom anymore. Personally I'd love for her to go







So. It's possible the problems she has are within the bounds of normal, even if the outer bounds, but we are so ... close to the breaking point all the time? When we spend time with her we are always waiting for her to ask us to buy her something or do something for her (and she has yet to prove us wrong unfortunately). Last time we took her & some friends to the mall we gave her extra time and still ended up sitting in the parking lot for 10 minutes. At which point she called us yet again to tell us one of the friend's moms was going to pick them up later. The thoughtlessness is not an isolated incident. How does someone think that might be ok? How many talks can any of her parents have with her about how to treat people? She just doesn't care that it's a problem for us.

I'm going to help her make a smoothie tonight so she can have breakfast tomorrow. I always ask about her day and listen about band and tests and whatever. Maybe we can make some progress now while she's still being nice since the last blow up. If you have recommendations for step family boards I'd love to hear them. Mothering is (in general) much slower now than it was a couple years ago







Sorry for the sorta off topic book.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

I hope it's okay to post links to the step family boards.

This one - http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/step/

helped me realize my relationship with my then BF was not going to work because of issues with his son.

It's not as active as it used to be

There is another board - Step Talk that is very active with a lot of members.

Sometimes it can turn into a stepkid bashing session, but for the most part

you can get good advice on there as well.

You'll probably see me on those forums since I use the same screen name.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Thank you!!!

I just want to say (yet again) thank you to everyone posting, even when this veered so far from the original topic. I don't know how long it will last but right now I'm feeling really "go get em positive". We as a family are really stuck and I don't want this to be our lives. I'm going to reframe again. I'm going to tell DH to reframe again. We HAVE to make a difference for DSD, we are all she has.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

Also want the add the age gap can be an issue. My oldest can really resent my youngest. My 2dsd were 10 and 9 when my oldest was born and they still have issues with her. Now they try to parent her and dd hates it

Yes, my oldest is constantly asking for stuff. I think it can be an insecurity issue. Gifts and acts of service to fill a bottomless love tank

For activities. Hard with the sibling age gap. I do drive kids around a lot. I also let my oldest bring a friend on outing.

We do geo caching as a family. Much easier now that my youngest is more stable on her feet. Also camp in the summer. Letting oldest bring a friend can help.
Lots of board games. Still hard with my youngest around but getting easier.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I would, if I were in your shoes, avoid steptalk (the forum). It tends towards the negative...


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

I did notice the negativity. I went home and gave my honey a big kiss & told hum how much I appreciated him, his support, etc!

Totally forgot about geocaching!

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2


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## forestmushroom (Sep 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> You seem to be saying that you don't like her and your husband can't stand to be in the same room she is in. Therapy for it her won't fix anything if she just continues to return to a toxic home where she is seen to have no good qualities at all by the adults who are supposed to care and where she has faced resentment for the two years she has lived there. I really think you should start by seeking a counselor for the adults to talk through some of the resentment then go for family counseling.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this... and add that as a kid I was 1/2 time with my mom, and 1/2 time with my dad and stepmom. My stephmom didn't have kids of her own until I was almost 18-- And I could tell she just hated me. So, you might want to be careful. Kids are not dumb, but they are immature (she is a teenager, after all) and they can sense when someone doesn't trust them, doesn't believe in them, etc.

So why should *she* put in all the effort when it sounds like her parents just see her as a failure... I know that is how I felt about my stepmom... no matter what I did she would view it as selfish, etc.

Of course when her own kids grew to be teenagers, she suddenly realized that I was just a normal teenager in a tough situation (split family... having to read and figure out everyone's rules, etc.). We are closer now, and I do get that being a stepparent is hard. But my stepmom thought she was doing all this stuff for me, when in reality, I don't think that bioparents really keep score like that. If you toddler needs something, do you review his behavior before getting it for him? Or is it just--he gets it, unconditionally?

I am trying to be gentle here, and I totally understand that teenagers can be difficult. but she probably feels like a ping pong ball-- being hit back and forth over the net (or a volley ball....) .


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neonalee*
> 
> ...Last year was HELL. Pure hell. We did as much as possible to give her opportunities to make friends, but as parents there is only so much you can do. That year is the root of our exhaustion.
> 
> ...


I get that you are in a rough spot. I'm raising my 2 biological teen daughters with their father, who I am happily married to. Ages 12 and 13 are tough. Really, really tough. I've got no one I can fantasize about spending them off to live to, but for a while when they were adolescents, I surfed web site of boarding schools.









It sounds like her behavior is within the range of normal, but on the extreme end of the range. I get it. She is a complete misery. She pushes limits CONSTANTLY. You guys really don't know what to do with her and aren't clear on what to do when she acts up. You didn't get the first 12 (or so) years of life to figure stuff out, and then you started day to day life with a kid with a bunch of issues.

But the mall thing -- normal on her part. The big question --- how did you respond? We would have marched our DD and every child whose parent we had told we were bringing home out of the mall and driven them home. The calling the other parent and making another plan? I had words with the parent of one of my DD's friends (who is also in my book club) and let her know that my DD had not cleared something with ME. What happened is well within normal teen behavior -- but the parent response helps determine if this becomes a habit.

When you spend time with her waiting for her to ask for something, what do you do when she asks? I suggest something like "No, we aren't buying anything to day. We are just going to enjoy Fill in Name of Activity." What do you do for family fun? Board games? Hiking? Cooking? Reading a chapter of a book together out loud before bedtime? Find some activities and require them and just keep moving forward.

I think most parents end up with a year (or more) that is hell. What parenting, or step parenting, means is figuring out how to unconditionally love a very flawed human being who you are responsible for who is doing their best to develop independence. Try to remember the little girl she was not that long ago that you cared about it. Remember that past all the icky behavior, in her heart, she is sweet and sacred -- she just isn't able to access that part of herself right now. Believe it about her even when she doesn't believe it about herself.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

I think I need to read this thread weekly to keep my head in the game.

Forestmushroom - were you manipulative and lied about everything? I'd sincerely like to know. I think if I didn't have those 2 behavior to contend with I'd be able to manage the rest. My son doesn't get much of anything unconditionally. I mean, he gets what he needs. She actually gets way more than he does. His clothes are from consignment, and he's certainly not overrun with toys. He doesn't have any activities/lessons, in fact we thought about putting him in soccer with a friend's kid but we put SD in VB instead. I don't actually feel resentment about this - I think her needs are higher than his. But I do feel resentment about how it's not appreciated (while understanding this is normal teen). So, I guess in answer to your question, when she needs something she gets it without question, sometimes at the expense of him not getting things because I feel her need is higher.

I've been part of her family since she turned 7. I was frequently the one championing her needs, especially in the beginning when her parents were figuring out their sh**. Yeah, she drew a very short stick in childhood. But it's never gotten better, despite 5/6 years of giving (not just $), championing, believing, encouraging. Is that normal? It's truly in the last year or so that I've lost my faith.

Linda - her (at the time "to be") step dad threatened her a few times with military school







While I've fantasized about it, and wondered if some type of Outward Bound kind of experience would help her at all (I'd save up for it if so), I'd never ever tell her so. You are right about the sudden day to day with issues. I guess I just thought that it wouldn't be so all the time like this. I mean, sure I wasn't even close to an angel at that age, but I wasn't a misery every single day. I had expectations for behavior and environment that I was expected to meet. I certainly didn't leave used maxi pads lying around the bathroom floor! What do I do with that kind of thing????

So, the mall thing. How do you find a teen that doesn't want to be found in a mall? I guess we just felt at a loss. Another thing we need to improve upon: we don't know her friends' parents







we were just so grateful that she'd finally made friends... I have started to make small steps there. Last time she got picked up I went out with her, met the mom and we exchanged phone numbers, and later some texts. We have to move at the end of May. I think we will try to have all her friends parents over afterwards. I really do not look forward to this part, with her or my son. I rarely meet moms who have the same kind of beliefs/lifestyle that we do and it makes me so uncomfortable. I'm pretty introverted to begin with, though I've learned how not to be.

Your last paragraph brought tears to my eyes. I'm going to email it to DH/P/F whatever he is  I'm going to keep trying.

I've been trying to get to the root of my feelings. I think I know what it is. I'm afraid that at the end of the day she's just going to continue to manipulate us and is going to grow up to be a mean, manipulative person. I'm afraid that I'm going to give and give and give until I have nothing left to give and she'll walk away saying how we never did anything for her. And if that's how it's going to be I'd rather not run myself ragged trying to keep up. It sounds so awful but it's the truth.







I'm so tired of the hopeful highs (maybe she's making progress!!!!) and the really fast killer lows (I can't believe she just keeps lying....)

You guys are my sanity right now. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


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## forestmushroom (Sep 6, 2011)

.... to be quite honest, as a teenager I did lie to my parents. I felt that they had lied to me with their divorce, and being "oh we love you" and then basically doing everything for themselves and not for me. So I just felt that the whole trust was already broken. I know in retrospect that that wasn't true, and that my parents and stepmom did love me.

I also lied because I didn't want to disappoint my parents! I felt that I didn't know what they wanted me to say -- I didn't know the right answer, you know? I didn't know what the right answer was and was afraid of telling the truth because what if I was wrong? I would be wrong and exposing myself like that was just unthinkable.

So it was easier to make stuff up then reveal my true self. And I felt I was already bad in the eyes of my stepmom (esp. since they hated my real mom...) so my instinct was to protect myself from further hurt at all costs. Also, I felt like all these adults had created this situation, and then broken it... but I had to take responsibility for all of it (when they didn't... they did what was right for them and it seemed like I was an afterthought). In retrospect that wasn't really true, but it is hard to see that as a hurt kid.

Have you read about why kids lie? This is a helpful link: http://www.empoweringparents.com/Why-Do-Kids-Children-and-Teens-Lie-What-To-Do-About-It.php The one thing that sticks with me and I get from my childhood, that is you know it is wrong, but you don't always see it as being hurtful.

And regarding the manipulation... does she willfully manipulate? Or do you think it might be something she has learned from perhaps her grandparents and biomom?

Also, read this article on *why* teens manipulate... : http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/6-ways-your-teen-manipulates-you

They do it to feel love and powerful. In this situation, you SD might feel like she is very powerless over her situation... having adults, and courts, etc. decide fundamental things about her life that seem totally arbitrary to her.... that is going to make her feel like she has little control over her life.

Not that you haven't tried to do what you can, but teenagers 1) think they know everything (my goodness, I though I had it all figured out at 16.... in retrospect I was clueless!), and have no perspective.

I think it is good that you do value her needs and are working hard to help her. I wouldn't expect her to suddenly thank you or even change -- but eventually she will. It might not be as a teenager, though.

Can your family do volunteer work together? That and family therapy would probably help a lot.... As an adult I've been in therapy for years and wish my parents would have taken the situation more seriously and we had all gone to therapy instead of blaming me for everything or thinking it was all fine and I was just "too sensitive."

Edit to add: if I had a teenager who was acting on the more extreme end of teenage behavior, I would absolutely get my family into therapy. Many family therapist are very low cost, and trust me it will be worth every single penny. It is also helpful to have a therapist to guide you and help you parent.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Thank you for that response forestmushroom, I'm going to read those links and also send to her dad. We talked at lunch today and he is going to start doing volunteer work and have her join him. I was thinking I would be the one to go, but she needs more time with her dad and someone has to watch the LO. We are also going to look into starting to geocache and go hiking.

We actually did do therapy before we moved here. We had her every weekend in our old state (when we lived close to mom) and since her mom wouldn't do anything we found a place that would do Saturday mornings. We also did parent therapy with a separate therapist, but her mom/stepdad only showed up twice. It's absolutely stupid that we haven't gotten back into therapy since moving nearly 2 years ago. I'm going to take (even more) time right now to look into some options (rather than do my work







).

A couple things struck me during our lunch conversation. 1 - he pointed out that I don't have those warm/fuzzy/cute/wonderful memories of her because she was already messed up when I met her. Some things I feel good that I've made an impression on (she no longer screams like she broke her ankle when stubbing a toe for example, not exaggerated) and others I feel like nothing helps. 2 - he worries the same as I do. That she is intrinsically an uncaring manipulative person. He points out that she does not feel remorse about anything she does wrong, regardless of who it hurts, unless she's called on her action rather severely. And this was where i pointed out again that we have to keep trying and we have to get therapy started. We swing back and forth on who is more hopeful for this situation, with one of us always holding up the other. I'm so lucky where he is concerned.

Also - I just feel the need to throw out there that we have actually managed to create a really good working/parenting relationship between the 4 of us parents for the most part. It's not really relevant to the conversation but I never wanted her to feel the need to defend her mom to me or feel like I was trying to be a replacement.


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## forestmushroom (Sep 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neonalee*
> 
> . 2 - he worries the same as I do. That she is intrinsically an uncaring manipulative person. He points out that she does not feel remorse about anything she does wrong, regardless of who it hurts, unless she's called on her action rather severely.


I think it is awesome that you are asking these questions and working together. You seem so open and I really admire that.

One thing I would caution is ... you don't really know what a person is feeling. They may appear like they do not care, or they may not look like you want them to look when they are expressing contrition... a lot of teens do things because they want to, but they do not realize that they are hurting other people by doing it. I would stop from assigning motive to her, or drawing universal conclusions like she is intrinsically an uncaring person.

I would highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Reviving-Ophelia-Saving-Selves-Adolescent/dp/B0018ZREKA see if your library has it, or it would be worth owning if you can...

Reviving Ophelia

Good luck!


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *forestmushroom* 


> One thing I would caution is ... you don't really know what a person is feeling. They may appear like they do not care, or they may not look like you want them to look when they are expressing contrition... a lot of teens do things because they want to, but they do not realize that they are hurting other people by doing it. I would stop from assigning motive to her, or drawing universal conclusions like she is intrinsically an uncaring person.


Another point - a lot of times, teens (in particular) will give an appearance of not caring - because they perceive it as a sign of weakness which can be exploited to hurt them. So they learn to hide all appearances of caring - if you don't care, you can't be hurt. It's safer.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


That is a really good point that I should have already known. Thank you









Probably (hopefully) won't be back for a few days. I've almost literally not done any work today between this, therapist hunting, and dealing with my own medical issue! Need to focus for a couple days!


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