# Is this CIO?



## Omsmom (Dec 11, 2006)

Here is the background. I have a 11 mo DS who does not sleep very well. He goes through phases when he wakes up every 45 min to hour, and then he'll only wake up twice to nurse. Often though he wakes up and doesn't want to nurse, just wants to be held and rocked. DH has a very demanding job and ends up spending most nights on the futon in the guest room. About 3-4 times a week I'll call him to take over for 2-3 hours so I can get some rest, especially when DS is waking very frequently.

Two nights ago, DS was waking up very often. I think he is teething, so he would wake up wailing and didn't want to nurse. He just wanted me to hold him and rock him, and would yell if I tried to put him down. So I held him for a long time, until I was exhasted and finally called DH to take over. Next morning when I asked DH how things went at night, he said he held DS for one hour, walked and rocked him but DS wouldn't go into deep sleep. So finally DH put DS down on the bed next to him and kept patting, kissing and shushing. But he didn't pick him up. DS was very upset and was crying through all this. Finally after one hour of lying in bed next to his Dad and crying, he got tired and snuggled up, drank his bottle of EBM, fell asleep on his own, and slept until 7 am without waking up once.

When I heard this I was very angry. I would have never let DS lie next to me crying, I would have picked him up and nursed/rocked him. But DH insists that its not CIO because he was next to DS the whole time, patting him and talking to him. In fact we have been arguing about this for 2 days now because he thinks we should do this more often since this will solve DS's sleep issues. DH's point is that most of the time DS doesn't want to nurse, he is light sleeper and can't fall asleep on his own. He needs to be rocked each time. I, on the contrary, think we should continue to hold him and rock him because if he is crying he must be hurting somewhere. Its my job as his mother to comfort him if he cries.

I need some second/third opinions on this situation.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

As long as your DH was right there with him and doing everything he could to comfort him, then its not CIO. CIO is purposely leaving a crying child alone with no comfort and no help. That is not what went on here. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with sleep! Good luck to you all


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm kind of torn. On one hand, your husband was there. On the other hand, your child was NOT getting his comfort needs met and it lasted for an hour. I vote it's CIO.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Yeah this is one of those I want to say "your the mom, baby wants YOU and you are letting him cry." But that's a really bad way to put it because sleep is nice!

I have a 2.5 year old and a 7 month old...I haven't slept more than 3 hours at a time in going on 3 years. My body has never needed a lot of sleep, however I know people that can literaly fall asleep driving if they dont' get 8 hours.

If you are at home I would try taking naps during the day. I know what it's like having 2 teething babes, right now my 7 month old is working on tooth number 2 and DS is getting molars







I would go with your gut. DS never saw dad at night, like even once! DD on the other hand has daddy (and loves it!) most of the time at night. You just have to do what keeps everyone happy/sane and sleeping decently.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
As long as your DH was right there with him and doing everything he could to comfort him, then its not CIO. CIO is purposely leaving a crying child alone with no comfort and no help. That is not what went on here. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with sleep! Good luck to you all









But the point seems to be that her dh WASN'T doing *everything* he could. Had he continued holding/walking the baby, maybe he (the baby) would have stopped crying in 5 minutes, rather than an hour. There's no way to know.

I agree with the PP that this does seem to be in kind of a grey area, though--not quite the same as leaving a baby alone to cry.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I think its a grey area... however if you guys continue to do this as a way to train him to sleep it becomes more of an issue and I would be more likely to call it CIO.


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

I have really been there, so don't take this as offensive please:

But sitting next to baby and hushing, shushing and patting him is not doing everything you can to comfort them. Especially when he's teething he needs to be held and rocked and comforted to the best of his mommy and daddy's ability.

This WON'T last forever, and I agree that you and DH should switch shifts, so that you can each get some rest, and you should definitely nap when you DS is napping, but your DS needs to be held closely, those teeth are hurting him and he has no way of comforting himself... KWIM?

I hope it gets better for you guys!!!


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## Omsmom (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks! I'm definitely not in favor of using this technique for 'training' him (DS). I think whenever he's ready to sleep through the night, he'll do it. If he doesn't, we;ll just have to figure out a way so all of get some rest. I don't want to rush him. All of your replies will help me make my point to DH tonight. Lets hope he buys it. I'm thinking if he (DH) feels overwhelmed by taking shifts at night, then I'll just stop asking him to takeover. That way we can avoid this situation altogether. Only downside is I'll have no reprieve on those long nights when DS keeps waking but I don't like the idea of him crying continuously and not getting the comfort he wants.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I say it is not CIO. Daddy was there. Daddy was touching him, which will decrease the cortisol levels.

The point isn't how selfless one can be in meeting a child's needs. The point is to do so.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think it is CIO when a parent is right there offering comfort.

To me that is *very* different than being left alone in a crib.


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## mommy65 (Jul 11, 2005)

my husband does the same thing with babe. while i don't consider this hard core cry it out, i'm still not comfortable with it so i opt to just do ds2 on my own. i used to be angry about this but now i realize it 's just the diff between mom and dad. dh takes care of ds1 (3 1/2) at night time. on the flip side though, i think it's nice to have the option to share the night parenting responsibility. it's really what you feel comfortable with . good luck!


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm a little on the fence as to whether or not it is crying it out. I never was able to sleep in a different room when I could hear baby crying. My vote, however, is to run as fast as you can to a health food store and get some teething tablets for that baby. Those things saved our sanity.


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

I don't think this is CIO, but an hour _is_ a long time for a baby to cry. I'm guessing if you continue this way, it'll only take a few days or maybe a week to "wean" him of his non-nursing night-wakings, and the crying will reduce dramatically in that time. And yeah, that would be sleep training.... so, really, it's whatever you're comfortable with.









I will say that our DS is 26 months old and still waking every three hours and it SUCKS big time. I'm starting to wish we'd nipped this in the bud... say... around 11 months.









I really think there's a big difference between real CIO with little babies (evil), and what your DH wants to do. You really don't need to be a martyr to be a good parent.









OK, fire away.







:


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

I think that you should honor your husbands judgment and If he was next to him I agree that is not CIO. I think that unless he is in pain getting up out of bed and rocking a baby is a confusing way to nightime parent. If you share a bed he needs to go back to sleep and be reminded that everyone is sleeping and you mommy and daddy would like him to stop crying and cuddle up. I also had a wind up musical bear for my son and I would only wind it up once and then he was expected to go back to sleep. Also get some ear plugs for both parents, it helps you cope until the baby learns that night time is a quiet time.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
But the point seems to be that her dh WASN'T doing *everything* he could. Had he continued holding/walking the baby, maybe he (the baby) would have stopped crying in 5 minutes, rather than an hour. There's no way to know.

I agree with the PP that this does seem to be in kind of a grey area, though--not quite the same as leaving a baby alone to cry.


I think if dh was too tired to do more than he was doing everything he could.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I don't think it is CIO when a parent is right there offering comfort.

To me that is *very* different than being left alone in a crib.

I agree. Daddy was with him comforting him. Just in a different way. Baby was not crying all alone in a dark room in a crib. To me, THAT is CIO. Not daddy offering ebm, shushing, cuddling, and patting.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

I have a poor sleeper and we have done this. I don't think it's CIO. There have been nights where nothing is working and we are flat out of energy and ideas so we just tuck ourselves into bed, turn off the lights, and pray to god that he will go to sleep. I think that when you have a poor sleeper, sometimes patting and shushing are all you have left to give.


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## mama2tzatziki (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
I think that when you have a poor sleeper, sometimes patting and shushing are all you have left to give.

ITA with this. I have a notoriously poor sleeping 21 month old. I can't count the number of nights I have either found myself lying in bed drifting in and out of sleep trying to hold and comfort my crying baby, or doing the same things rocking in the recliner. On these nights it would have been dangerous for me to have been walking with ds because I was tired enough to be afraid that I was going to drop him.

I think that, sadly, there *is* a difference between the best you can do at 3pm and at 3am. When you have a baby that wakes many (or sometimes most) nights and cries for more than an hour, exhaustion does set in. And if you have older children, napping is often not an option many days. I have taken comfort in a quote from Dr. Sears that "a child crying in a loving parent's arms is not crying it out". And even if I am lying next to the baby with my arms around him, he is still in my arms.


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## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

your dh was providing comfort by being there, talking to him, patting him. I don't think this is the same as CIO.
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html


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## smallmama (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I think if dh was too tired to do more than he was doing everything he could.

ITA. Don't be too hard on your husband. Hopefully it was just a one-time deal.


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I think if dh was too tired to do more than he was doing everything he could.









: We are human.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Honestly, that is how I would have handled it. Our son slept exactly like you ar talking about and I comforted and cuddled him as much as I could. But you are at the point now where no one is sleeping.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to survive. I think your dh made a wise choice.

I jsut wanted to add that our son woke every 45 minutes until he was almost 2.5. It was hell, especially with a new baby. Now, he is almost 5 and sleeps for 12-14 hours in a stretch at night if you let him. We try and wake him up at the same time everyday, partly for preschool etc. Anyway, it does eventually get better. Our second son was an amazing sleeper! He always was. I sued to always tell myself that in 15-16 years I'd be yelling up the stairs for him to get his butt out of bed and it always made me feel better


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I just wanted to chime in and say how much I appreciate these last posts on this thread...so understanding and supportive.

I'm in the same boat with my 8 month old and we're beyond exhausted. I have a son who will be 4 in February and it is so much harder this time around to handle the sleep deprivation.

We have toyed with doing just what your husband did and I feel so confirmed reading these posts. I'm not sure we'll need to do it (I'm hoping for a miracle to happen any night now!)....but if it gets to the point that we're walking zombies during the day and sacrificing energy that my son needs from us, we'll certainly consider sending a message to the babe that night time is for sleeping.

Lately the baby has been waking at 4:30a and is up for an hour or two. I think it's teething...nothing we have tried has helped. My dh walks him and I nurse him and we alternate until the baby passes out. It's exhausting....

Good luck to everyone going through this...it is so hard.

Barb


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Definitely not CIO.


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## marlee (Aug 29, 2005)

It doesn't sound like CIO to me. DH was there for baby to curl up, cuddle, and fall asleep.


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## bornbythesea (Oct 24, 2006)

Wow, I could have written this post! We have a very active 11month DS, and a hard time getting him to go to sleep and stay asleep. I have often questioned whether letting him cry while holding him and not picking him up is CIO. I just don't know! But, if it works to help him "learn" to sleep, it may be worth exploring. We have tried everything.... Books (he just wants to play with them) Laying down next to (he wants to crawl) slinging (he twists franticly to be put down) Only big bounces and the girls work.
I hope things improve for you! Maybe we'll see on the crappy sleepers tribe.
Good luck


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

OMG, are we human beings or what?!







: of course it is *not* CIO! baby was in one bed with mommy and daddy!


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_The point isn't how selfless one can be in meeting a child's needs. The point is to do so._










DEFINITELY NOT CIO!

I also want to add that I think your dh needs some support from you in finding his own way to comfort your dc (within the boundaries that the two of you establish).


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## Greenmama13 (Nov 24, 2006)

I would also say not CIO. Although, I agree with you that I would have picked him up myself (is that a mom thing?). But, my reading of Dr. Sears is that if you are there supporting him and attending to his needs, rather than shutting him in a room by himself to cry, then it is not CIO.

But, I know this frustration myself. My ds is 17 months and wakes about every 2 hours to nurse. Most nights it doesn't bother me, but everyone once in a while, I just get sooo exhausted. But, my dh has less patience than I do in the middle of the night, so I try not to turn my son over to him unless I really need to. Good luck! I figure he has to learn to sleep longer eventually, right?


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## GenomicsGirl (Jan 25, 2004)

I have definitely been in your shoes, and can say in retrospect, that it is not CIO. When you're in a state of total exhaustion, you make a judgement call in these situations. Don't beat yourself or your dh up about this - you both need your sleep


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## josybear (Jul 24, 2006)

i'm there, doing that. ds (14 mos) will cry for 6 hours straight, if i'm not around at night. unfortunately, i work nights. dh tries to walk him, feed him, let him play... he only wants to cry. so dh puts in ear plugs and gets the best sleep he can under the circumstances.
it makes me want to pull my hair out, knowing that my baby is that sad without me, but what else can dh do? he snuggles ds and rubs his back, but mostly tries to sleep. and i can't blame him, but i feel like a horrible parent for leaving him in the first place.
and no, i can't switch to days or get another job. if ds is in daycare he doesn't eat, and he's ftt, so it's not an option.


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## Lolafanana (Dec 29, 2005)

I agree with the previous posters that you need to honor Dh and support his judgements as well. We are human and there's no need to try to get the 'worlds' most selfless mommy' award. You need some sleep to be a good mommy and Dh needs to feel supported so that he continues to help with the nighttime parenting. You should applaude him for being willing to share that responsibility with you while also working. Many Dh's would not. Good for him. Don't be too hard on him.


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## ABMama (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't think that this is CIO. I actually applaud your DH for sticking with him and not leaving your DC to cry alone in another room.
Mommy's and Daddy's have different ways of comforting/parenting a baby to sleep and I think that Daddy and DC have to work on what works best for the two of them.
Another reason why I don't think that it is CIO is because; what is the difference between you walking and shushing and your DH lying and shushing?
Just because you are upright??
Sometimes after all other options are used and my DS is still crying all I can do is hold him to my chest and sing and *hope* he falls asleep.
Please don't be hard on your DH, he was tryingh his best, you have to give him some credit...other women may not be as lucky as you to have a DH who actually cares about your DC night habits.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

ABMama, i was thinking the same thing about the walking verses lying down thing. I think sometimes babies are just exhausted and don't know how to settle down and they are going to fuss no matter what we do. My first son used to be pacified with the breast 99% of the time. This new little one sometimes refuses to nurse and just wails and fusses. We do everything we can think of but it just takes time for him to quiet down and sleep again.

Great points.


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## eroslovesagape (Aug 8, 2005)

Thanks you, all you straight-talking posters! Exactly when did being AP become synonymous with being a martyr, not a mother? Who needs the "most selfless mother" award? Not I. Somehow the pendulum has swung a bit too far...in our desire not to leave infants screaming in their cribs alone in another room we have perhaps created bigger sleep problems than there need to be by scrambling to find absolutely any way to avoid crying. A little crying while being comforted is usually simply DC's way to let us know s/he doesn't LIKE not getting what s/he wants, not that s/he is being traumatized.

NOT CIO, I agree.

Also agree to support your DH in finding his way to comfort dc.

My dd is almost 15 months and had been waking 5-10x night...until a few weeks ago. Now it's only occasionally 1x night. What I'm doing is based on this article by Dr. Jay Gordon http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp

Who is a strong AP advocate and strong advocate for the family bed...


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree with the pp entirely....I think we have definitely seen the creation of new sleep problems with children that are not healthy and unnecessary. Babies have immediate needs for nourishment and comfort during the night, but older children really NEED sleep....uninterrupted sleep. As do we all. I'm hopeful that when our babe is around 1 or 1 1/2 we can start to develop some better sleep patterns for him.

Excellent points.


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## ChiaraRose (Aug 8, 2005)

I don't know. i think it is CIO. I am exhausted, too. VERY exhausted. Yesterday night for the first night (my ds is 11 month old, almost), I just was so exhausted, it was 5 o'clock, I hadn't slept at all, yet; I just lied next to him, cuddled him, shhd him, sang to him and he SCREAMED. I did this for two minutes (I watched the clock) and then dh came charging into the room who heard him despite being in another room with earplugs in. That loud, he screamed.
He rocked him, I nursed him, he went back to sleep (for an hour.) within 5 minutes. i feel horrible next to being tired today. I had never done this before, I don't wanna do it again.
The point of my post. I know how it feels to be so very sleep deprived, but if you let your baby scream despite knowing a better way to comfort him/her, you are doing a form of CIO.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

My 20 month old wakes up several times a night. I cosleep so I couldn't even tell you how often she's up. She starts the night though nursing to sleep in one bed and I join her when she wakes up. Usually we're both back to sleep in a matter of minutes. Well last week she woke up and came to my room. I picked her up and put her in the bed with me but she kept crying. I tried to nurse her, burp her, cuddle her, etc. She kept crying. I took her back to the room she had been in so she wouldn't wake up older DD and Dh. She kept crying. I don't even know how long she cried as I tried to cuddle her, offered to nurse, offered her the other boob, etc. She would briefly nurse and then begin crying again. It was very late and I was really not fully lucid. It never even occurred to me to get up and walk around with her other than when we changed rooms (during which time she continued crying). I would certainly never have considered that what I was doing (which was giving her every bit of attention that I was physically capable of giving her at that time) could possibly be considered CIO. Sounds like the OP's Dh was in the same place. I've been there with my older DD (who didn't originally cosleep) where I would rock/nurse her back to sleep and I was so tired that I actually caught myself relaxing my arms as I held her. With cosleeping it honestly would never occur to me to leave the bed with the child in order to avoid the CIO tag. I guess I possibly could have given up on sleep at 3am and taken her downstairs to play or something and likely she would have stopped crying but really is that the criteria to avoid CIO these days? She was still tired and needed to sleep but something was stopping her. I gave her comfort and eventually she went back to sleep.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

:

It's so good to read these down-to-earth, common sense mamas' responses as I try to help my 17 month old extend her sleep at night without nursing back to sleep. Last night papa handled the night wakings while I slept in another room. I got seven hours of sleep (in a row!) and I feel like a new woman. DD woke up every hour, but papa was there to comfort and hold her in the night. Did I let her CIO because I chose to sleep in another room? Nope, I don't think so.


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## faithinrosie223 (Sep 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gottaknit* 
I don't think this is CIO, but an hour _is_ a long time for a baby to cry. I'm guessing if you continue this way, it'll only take a few days or maybe a week to "wean" him of his non-nursing night-wakings, and the crying will reduce dramatically in that time. And yeah, that would be sleep training.... so, really, it's whatever you're comfortable with.









I will say that our DS is 26 months old and still waking every three hours and it SUCKS big time. I'm starting to wish we'd nipped this in the bud... say... around 11 months.









I really think there's a big difference between real CIO with little babies (evil), and what your DH wants to do. You really don't need to be a martyr to be a good parent.









OK, fire away.







:

I have to agree with you.


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
I have a poor sleeper and we have done this. I don't think it's CIO. There have been nights where nothing is working and we are flat out of energy and ideas so we just tuck ourselves into bed, turn off the lights, and pray to god that he will go to sleep. I think that when you have a poor sleeper, sometimes patting and shushing are all you have left to give.


ITA. My dd woke every 45 minutes - 1 hour until 27 1/2 months old. Eventually all we could do was lay her down and rub her back until either she or we fell asleep.

I'm blessed that my son is a good sleeper, but he has had a few inconsolable nights. When we're done, we lay him down with us or in the co-sleeping bassinett until he settles.


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## Omsmom (Dec 11, 2006)

Since I first posted this thread DS seems to be getting over whatever phase he was going through. Turns out he was/is teething and I can now see two white stumps peeking through his top gum. Since these are his first set of teeth I had no idea what was going on but as one of the posts suggested I got the homeopathic teething tablets and they helped. DS is sleeping better -which means he is only waking 5 times at night instead of 10.

I've also learnt to let go a little. I still call DH some nights. Two nights back he did put my son down next to him after walking around for 45 mins at 4 am, and after 5-10 mins of crying DS fell asleep and stayed sleeping till 8:30 am. After reading all these posts, I guess its not so bad and I agree we all have different ways of calming a baby. I would not do it (put baby next to me while he crying) but after hearing all these opinions, I guess its not so bad if DH does it occasionally.

Thanks for all the advice!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

My only advice would be to follow _your_ heart and _your_ instincts. If something feels wrong to you, then it is wrong for you









From the About MDC link:

Quote:

Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents. The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.


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## SMoody (Dec 22, 2006)

Pure and simple. Not a case of CIO. I would never get angry if my husband did it. My daughter had a few nights like this with us moving countries. I just couldnt get her to sleep at all. I eventually just hugged her and comforted her while lying next to her. My poor child cried the whole time and then just snuggled herself next to me and fell asleep. And I know it in my heart I didnt let her cry it out in the sense that I left her all alone where she didnt get to see or hold me.

Then you might as well say CIO is also when you rock your child but they still cry.


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