# Worried about circ w/o our consent



## vachi73 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hello there,

We are expecting twins in December, unknown genders (on purpose - I want to be surprised!) Our first two sons are intact and (IMHO) gorgeous







Modest mommy, ha ha.

Anyway - if one or both of these babies is/are male, we do not want them circ'd, either. My OB knows this, our ped knows this, etc. I will stick "NO CIRC" stickies on the bassinettes, too.

However, typical mama-bear here -- I am concerned that, because there are two of them, and because they have to be born in a hospital and prob by C-S(I'm totally high-risk, with a partial placenta previa and a huge hemorrahge already ... don't ask), and because they're likely to be early, they may not be "rooming in" like our singletons did, and could be in the NICU. Therefore, they will be out of our control more of the time we are in the hospital.

This makes me totally anxious - what if they circ one/both without our consent?! OMG - that would put me over the edge, for sure. I would totally lose it. And sue the hospital mercilessly, no joke. But that would not change the reality for our son(s) who were cosmetically altered against our wishes.

Has this happened to anyone?? What, if anything, can I do to reduce the risk of this? If they're in the NICU, what else can I do, since I won't be with them 24/7?

(FWIW, if you think I am being overly neurotic, it's OK to say so - I can take it!! I'm on bedrest, have been since 12.5 weeks along, so I have a lot of time on my hands to obsess about every conceivable scenario, LOL.)

TIA for any thoughts, advice, or recommendations to chill out. - Ginny


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## Contented73 (May 14, 2006)

Could you have a conversation ahead of time with the charge nurses in the NICU where you will be delivering? Ask detailed questions about the possibility of un-consented circ occurring - maybe also get some stats of how common circ is (if it is really common, it might mean there is a greater chance of it happening, etc.). It might either help put your mind at ease, or help you come up with ideas to prevent anything awful from happening.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

With all the precautions you are taking the risk goes way down that this would happen. Usually circ happens the day they go home so up until then you are sorta in the safe zone as it where.

I would put something on their isolette as well if they are in one.


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## KweenKrunch (Jul 25, 2009)

Performing genital modification surgery on infants without their parents consent would leave the hospital open to a huge amount of liability.

And most allopaths will not perform a genital mod. on a baby in the NICU.

I'm sorry you are having such a complicated pregnancy. Just remember, even if the birth doesn't turn out the way you hope, you can always rebirth at some point to realign the babies. Think positive!

Best of luck to you!


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 

And most allopaths will not perform a genital mod. on a baby in the NICU.



It happens every day in every hospital in the US in the NICU...as a PP stated usually on the day or day before they go home.

I would write in sharpie across his/their belly "if you touch my penis my mom will sue"


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## knitted_in_the_wom (May 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
I would write in sharpie across his/their belly "if you touch my penis my mom will sue"

LOL! That is funny!

But seriously, I think I would go with the "catch more flies with honey with vinegar" approach, and write something like "I think my penis is perfect the way it is, so I'm taking it all home with me!"

Jenn


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knitted_in_the_wom* 
LOL! That is funny!

But seriously, I think I would go with the "catch more flies with honey with vinegar" approach, and write something like "I think my penis is perfect the way it is, so I'm taking it all home with me!"

Jenn

Well the point is to make a clear message NOT to circumcise her boys. She is not trying to change the minds of nurses by writing friendly messages on her childrens stomachs.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

We don't have a high circ rate in our hospital. BUt there is NO WAY!!! a doc would touch them without every "i" dotted and "t" crossed on that consent. And they personally have to discuss the procedure with the parents before. There are a lot of hoops to jump through to get it done.









I did, however, hear from one of the peds that once a dad had sneakily signed the consent against the wishes of his wife. But bottom line, a consent WAS signed.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

totally unrelated but someone i know recently spent two nights and three days in a hospital with her child and the staff did not obtain a signed consent form. So, don't be so certain that they check the consent issue. (to be fair, the kid was in for observation only and no invasive procedures were done...but still, no signed consent was obtained.)

I think concern is warrented but once you have discussed it ahead of time with ALL of the staff and are CERTAIN it's in your record, you should be good. Stickers on the isolettets, writing on diapers....it all sounds reasonable to me.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

The hospital I'm using this time doesn't have a huge circ rate, but EVERY staff person I've spoken with (from OBs right through to receptionists) has commented that if I don't want it done, I'd better remind each and every person who will be in contact with the babe, put a note on his clothing and in his bassinet if for some reason I need to put him down, have my refusal added to his chart, etc. So I'm getting the feeling that they may not always have "signed consent form in hand", you know?

I agree that speaking with the whole birth team and post partum NICU team (if necessary) is a good idea, and with stickers and a bassinet note for each babe you should have some additional wiggle room. And then when push comes to shove, just mention it to each and every nurse, intern, dr, staff person you see in connection with your kiddos.


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wombatclay* 
The hospital I'm using this time doesn't have a huge circ rate, but EVERY staff person I've spoken with (from OBs right through to receptionists) has commented that if I don't want it done, I'd better remind each and every person who will be in contact with the babe, put a note on his clothing and in his bassinet if for some reason I need to put him down, have my refusal added to his chart, etc. So I'm getting the feeling that they may not always have "signed consent form in hand", you know?

I agree that speaking with the whole birth team and post partum NICU team (if necessary) is a good idea, and with stickers and a bassinet note for each babe you should have some additional wiggle room. And then when push comes to shove, just mention it to each and every nurse, intern, dr, staff person you see in connection with your kiddos.

Wow, that's sad that circ has become so routine that parents have to be so explicit and clear about not wanting it.

It should be the other way around--that if parents want it, they should have to fight to make it happen.


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

I have boy/girl twins that were born at 32 weeks and they spent 5 weeks in NICU. I was terrified that they'd accidentally circ ds when I wasn't with him. I asked one of the NICU nurses about it right after he was born and she said I didn't have anything to worry about because they do circs right before discharge. She actually freaked me out though because she said there was no consent form but the doctor would discuss it with me before hand. I do think there were forms though because I was in the room when they circed another baby and the doctor and nurse kept joking about did the baby have his "ticket" which I think was a consent form.

I felt much the same way you did. I'd been on bedrest for 2 months when my twins were born by emergency c-section and then they were whisked off to NICU immediately. For whatever reason making sure ds stayed intact was one thing I felt like I could control. Every time I visited the NICU one of the first things I did was check to make sure ds was still intact. I know that sounds crazy but I was terrified that something would be mixed up at the hospital and they'd do it.

In the NICU they generally do the circs the day of discharge or the day before. If an accidental circ would happen it would probably be right when they are ready to go home. For my ds I was so worried they would do it by accident (I probably looked totally neurotic to the hospital staff but I put DO NOT CIRC in red sharpie on ds's discharge paperwork). If I had to do it over I'd stick a card in his bassinet that said DO NOT CIRC. I think that would have been more visible to more people and probably everyone would have known he was not to be circed. I would not feel comfortable writing on the baby's body directly and clothes and diapers are frequently changed so I don't think it makes much sense to write on those.

You may want to check on how they do circs where you will be delivering. Part of the reason I was freaked with ds was they did them right there in the NICU and they were performed by the Neos. The NICU my 2.5 year old 29 weeker was in had them performed by the OBs in the well baby nursery. You'd have to make arrangements with your OB to come in to do it if you wanted it done. I'm not sure exactly how that worked because I had a girl so no one asked if we wanted her circed. I was under the impression from the NICU handbook that it was up to the parent to contact the OB about it because the NICU staff had nothing to do with circs. (other than aftercare- one of the boys next to dd was circed and his nurse did circ checks frequently but other than that I think the NICU staff had nothing to do with it)


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## dorenavant (Apr 1, 2009)

My OB told me, when I asked about it, that the OB's at the hospital where I am delivering are the ones who perform circs, and that we would be asked if we wanted one and would have to sign a release. She did say, "you may be asked several times, just keep saying no."








I have put the following on my birth plan:
"We do not consent to having our son circumcised and ask that his foreskin not be retracted by anyone."
I'm hoping that since we're rooming in and asking that all procedures be done in our room that he won't be out of our sight for a moment- but if he has to be taken anywhere, I'm sending DH with him.


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dorenavant* 
My OB told me, when I asked about it, that the OB's at the hospital where I am delivering are the ones who perform circs, and that we would be asked if we wanted one and would have to sign a release. She did say, "you may be asked several times, just keep saying no."








I have put the following on my birth plan:
"We do not consent to having our son circumcised and ask that his foreskin not be retracted by anyone."
I'm hoping that since we're rooming in and asking that all procedures be done in our room that he won't be out of our sight for a moment- but if he has to be taken anywhere, I'm sending DH with him.

Hi! (waves) It's good to see another Michigan mommy with an intact boy. I live in the southern part of the state by Indiana. I have to say, though, that bit about you possibly being asked several times makes me sad. Why should they be soliciting you for unnecessary surgery?









I had my baby boy at home, but I always worried a little bit in the back of my head about what would happen if I had a hospital transfer.


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## nummies (Jun 9, 2007)

I am also worried about this. I am having a homebirth with my twins but this is one of my worries in case of transfer. I got bracelets (that go around the ankle) from Ron Low at TLC Tugger. You can see a picture here. I also plan on putting a sign on the bassinet.


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## vachi73 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
I would write in sharpie across his/their belly "if you touch my penis my mom will sue"

This literally made me LOL to the point of nearly-incontinent! You cannot make a woman pregnant with twins laugh that hard!!









Seriously, though - thank you all for not diminishing my fears and paranoia, and for all the great suggestions about signs on isolettes, discussions with NICU staff, etc. I am also going to follow the suggestion of calling the hospital's NICU and verifying what their procedures are regarding circ'ing so that I can head it off at the pass.

I like the idea of sending DH with both babies whenever I'm not there, but I doubt it will be feasible unless they are born after 37 weeks (she crosses fingers!!) and are allowed to room-in. Although, come to think of it, both of our sons required bili-lights, so they were away from me during that, and nothing bad happened THEN - but that was at a hospital in Northern Virginia, where I think the circ rates were lower than they are here in Denver







.

Next question - do they circ babies who have jaundice?! I can "hope" that these babies will follow suit, require lights, and will therefore be exempt from prying scalpels... (this is truly pathetic - wishing for jaundice to avoid a circ against our wishes?! they should have to get it written in concrete to do anything to a baby ... well, they shouldn't be allowed to do it to a baby, but I doubt I'm going to affect that change between now and December).


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

I have b/g twins born at 33 weeks. At our NICU in Atlanta, they were very stringent about making sure circed boys had proper consent and such. They put a huge neon yellow sticker on the front of Benny's chart that said "NO CIRC". I don't know if your hospital has these stickers, but you could probably make one to put there. I'm sure they would check his chart before doing anything to make sure he's not on blood thinners or anything.

If you're looking for a sure fire way to make sure they will see it, you could make your won temporary tatoo and put it right below his navel. You can use this kit http://temptats.net/tatkit.html and make it say "NO CIRC"


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skybluepink02* 
They put a huge neon yellow sticker on the front of Benny's chart that said "NO CIRC".


That makes me sooooo sad! Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't there be a huge red blood dripping sticker that says 'mutilate this baby' rather than a warning not to cut up a baby?


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## ABmom (Mar 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skybluepink02* 
I have b/g twins born at 33 weeks. At our NICU in Atlanta, they were very stringent about making sure circed boys had proper consent and such. They put a huge neon yellow sticker on the front of Benny's chart that said "NO CIRC". I don't know if your hospital has these stickers, but you could probably make one to put there. I'm sure they would check his chart before doing anything to make sure he's not on blood thinners or anything.

If you're looking for a sure fire way to make sure they will see it, you could make your won temporary tatoo and put it right below his navel. You can use this kit http://temptats.net/tatkit.html and make it say "NO CIRC"

I'm shocked that the hospitals would perform unnecessary surgeries on newborns WITHOUT the consent or knowledge of the parents. Here in Canada, specifically my province, EVERY procedure (from something as minor as eye drops or pricking the heel for blood test) must have the consent of the parent.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ABmom* 
I'm shocked that the hospitals would perform unnecessary surgeries on newborns WITHOUT the consent or knowledge of the parents. Here in Canada, specifically my province, EVERY procedure (from something as minor as eye drops or pricking the heel for blood test) must have the consent of the parent.

I've never been told what they're doing when they take one of my babies out of the room - not once. I don't know if the rules are different here, or if they just ignore them.

Nobody has tried to circ either of my boys, but circ isn't very common here. I think the rate is about 10% (I think it was a bit higher when ds1 was born).


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
That makes me sooooo sad! Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't there be a huge red blood dripping sticker that says 'mutilate this baby' rather than a warning not to cut up a baby?

I know. I thought it was horribly backwards myself, but I was glad that they took me seriously and took precautions in a circ-happy hospital. They also had a rule that the parents had to be at the hospital and in the baby's room during the circumcision and for several hours after. (They still took the baby away. I wish they'd make the parents watch what they were doing to their child) I'm not sure exactly why, but it made me happy because I knew that he wouldn't be circed without my consent because there's no way that I'd let them take him.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Can you change hospitals to one that is friendly to baby boys? So there's no worry about this? My stepmom is a NICU nurse, and although she's in CA we have family in CO, and I could have her ask around for a better hospital.

That said, I wanted to wish you huge luck; that previa should clear itself right up, since you have months to go, and I wanted to tell you that my MIL bled heavily ALL through her pregnancy with my husband. They actually were sure that he was not, you know, living, so they only once asked her if she wanted surgery. She said no, continued the pregnancy. He was born normally at 44 weeks, very much alive and kicking, despite the huge blood loss she experienced throughout the entire pregnancy. So I wanted to share that fabulous success story with you, and of course the good thoughts towards that partial previa that will continue to migrate away and make a non-drugged birth possible, so you don't have to worry about this!!!!!


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Go to an office supply store and get some mailing labels. Most word processing programs have templates that you can use to layout what you want.

Print a few pages of the with something simple and clear like "DO *NOT* CIRCUMCISE, DO *NOT* RETRACT." Put one on each diaper across the tabs, so that they seal the diaper shut. If anyone tries to get at his penis, they will have to rip the label.


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## Dave2GA (Jul 31, 2005)

Tell them you know a good lawyer who will sue their pants off if they touch your son's penis. I have done over 20 such cases.


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi. My twin boys were born at 33 1/2 weeks, and spent 3 weeks in NICU, and I was paranoid as hell that something like that would happen. I made stickers from this http://www.circumstitions.com/Images/must-not192.gif and had them put in their nursing folders. They could also go into the isolettes if you want. I felt a little foolish going on about it, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

Dave, I was wondering if you had seen this thread. http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1104001

Quote:

Thanks Mama's!!! I am so happy I am makeing sure that this new little Boy goes NO WHERE in the hospital with out STBDH or MYSELF! With my 5 year old they told me he was going for a bath and would bring him back asap. when he came back to me he was all red and sweaty I asked what was wrong with him she said ohh he just had his circ! I said what he was supposed to stay intact!!! then she walked out of the room So this bean will stay right with us!
Is there any legal recourse for this woman and her son?


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Adding the 'Do Not Retract' bit is SOOOO smart!!! I would think the biggest risk in the NICU is that they have some 'reason' to catheterize them and they retract to make that process easier. :cry

My son was forcibly retracted in a Children's ER within the blink of an eye, AFTER a nurse had assured me that no retraction would take place. Because they wanted to place a Cath (a totally unnesecary Cath, but that is another story!)

So yeah, put that on there! And for the mama in the post above mine, my heart weeps for her! I can't imagine!!!


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## ABmom (Mar 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never been told what they're doing when they take one of my babies out of the room - not once. I don't know if the rules are different here, or if they just ignore them.


I'm in AB so maybe the rules are a little different. I remembered telling my OB that we don't want our first born (was 100% sure that dd was a boy, lol) to be circ. She assured us that the hospital would not do anything without our written consent. When I was admitted, they got me to sign or waived the consent forms.


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

You know, this isn't about making friends with nurses or being sweet.

This about protecting a baby boy.

My hospital was great about the circ thing, and veryvery on top of their game to make sure nobody was ever circumcised without mama's consent. My midwife and her assitant seemed positively thrilled we weren't doing it (this IS Texas, after all). However, I was a bulldog about it anyway, and at ped's with the retraction issue.

I LOVE the mailing label idea. Lovelovelove.







:









He/They will be just fine. Especially with parents who voice their wishes.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

If for no other reason, *labelling* your baby might cause other people to take notice. Good for the cause!


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
If for no other reason, *labelling* your baby might cause other people to take notice. Good for the cause!

Or so we think.
Has anyone ever tried this before? I'd be worried the doctor/nurse/whatever-title medical worker will either ignore it or do the opposite of what is stated on the labels to spite the parents.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Or so we think.
Has anyone ever tried this before? I'd be worried the doctor/nurse/whatever-title medical worker will either ignore it or do the opposite of what is stated on the labels to spite the parents.

Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.

You'd be surprised.
Some doctors in and out of my area have performed procedures on non-consenting patients just because they (or their staff) got into fights with said patients. They claim they "didn't see" their written or otherwise disapproval and then slap them with a hefty bill afterwards. THAT's where the you-know-what hits the fan. So far, there has been no word on what happened in such scenarios (gee, I wonder why).
There was a famous case that was documented on TLC in 2001 involving a hermaphrodite named Patrick whose parents wanted to raise as a boy, but doctors wanted to surgically make him a girl. They castrated him despite his parents' wishes, saying they were only taking a "biopsy" and afterward justified their actions by claiming the tissue was malignant. Later the biopsy reports came back and said the extracted testicular tissue was perfectly healthy. The family sued, but their was no word on what happened afterward.
I can easily imagine a doctor (especially in the Bible Belt) playing the same card to get away with circing an infant or older child without parental consent.


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.


There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.

Quote:

In September 1997, Hardy and Harlan advised Dr. Taylor that their other children were not circumcised because they felt that circumcision was barbaric and harmful to an infant. On September 26, 1997, when Mrs. Harlan was admitted to Tri-City Hospital in Dallas for delivery, she told the staff that there was to be no circumcision. To prevent an accidental circumcision, the attending nurse threw the circumcision consent form into a nearby trashcan.

Two days after their son's birth, Hardy and Harlan were stunned when their newborn son was brought to them from the hospital nursery crying and bleeding, and were horrified when they learned that he had just been circumcised by Dr. Taylor. "We were hysterical," recalls Randi, "But when Dr. Taylor stopped by the room his only comment was 'It's not the end of the world.' I mean he's never even apologized to us." The couple believes Dr. Taylor circumcised their son intentionally in spite of their strong feelings against it.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm sure it's extremely rare, but does happen occasionally. Unfortunately, the penalties are often not strong enough to act as a real deterrent.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.

Unfortunately, intentional actions against parents wishes do happen. The distrust that people have towards medical staff is valid and deserved in many cases. I wish this was not so. It makes the job of genuinely compassionate and caring staff difficult I am sure.

Thank goodness these types are the minority.


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## tennisdude23 (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree with Bugmacgee. The chances of a child being circ. are small to non-existent without the proper documentation. Yes, there are the occasional BIZARRE cases as mentioned above but when you compare those to the number of kids who are born every day, it becomes clear that the chances of an improper surgical procedure happening are very small. I don't think the OP should worry about anything. As long as her OB, midwifes, and nurses are aware of her wishes, then everything will be fine.

To the OP: Good luck with everything and I wish you a happy and healthy son.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Tennisdude, I agree with you, the chance of it happening is very very slim....but to ignore that minute chance would be foolish. If your child is that one in 10 million that it happens to....it's very real.

I'm not an advocate of fearmongering, but I certainly think it would be naive to refuse to acknowledge that it has happened and will probably happen again. (And I'm not saying that you are ignoring it!)


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crunchy Frog* 
There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.

Of course, this happened in dallas. This is a worry of mine, but baby will be rooming in so it shouldn't be a problem. I think my mom was bullied into having my brother circed 20 years ago-- she certainly didn't give _informed consent._She wasn't told 'there is no medical reason'. He's the only circed member of our family, that I know of. (Hopefully he always will be).


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crunchy Frog* 
There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm sure it's extremely rare, but does happen occasionally. Unfortunately, the penalties are often not strong enough to act as a real deterrent.

I think my mom was operated on by that doctor...







:


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Just wanted to chime in with my two cents...

Sure, while a doctor or nurse intentionally doing something like circ deliberately against the parents wishes _is_ possible, it's very unlikely.
The U.S. is a very litigious society. Practically all the doctors and nurse I know work because they have families to support and bills to pay. Likewise, hospitals are in business to make a profit and there is so much competition their good standing in the community is highly prized (maybe it's a different story if they are the only hospital in a 50 mile radius or something).

I don't think a doctor/nurse/hospital would do something to a patient out of spite for fear of a lawsuit (rightfully so). If a doctor did this, not only would he/she be sued, but the insurance company would drop them and the hospital would most likely drop his/her admitting privileges. Without a hospital or insurance to back them, the doctor can't work, and can't pay his bills and looses his livelihood.
So yes, it could happen, but I think it's so unlikely. Most doctors and nurses want patients to have a happy hospital stay. The best thing to do if you don't want a circ is tell both your OB and the baby's Pedi. Then tell the baby's newborn nursery nurse after he's born. Tell her to pass the info along in report (mom's birth plan, at least every place I've worked, stays on mom's chart - it doesn't go to nursery w/ baby). Also tell the nursery nurse that no retraction of the foreskin needs to happen at all, even if a catheter is needed. As an extra precaution, it won't hurt to have the "no circ, no retraction" sign or labels on the babies isolette.

I've worked in various hospitals for 20 years now. All the things that can or could go wrong, circing babies that aren't supposed to be has never been one in a place I've worked. And it certainly won't happen if you have dad stay with the baby at all times or better yet, have the baby at home (or ask for an early hospital discharge once mom & baby are stable).


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vachi73* 
...but that was at a hospital in Northern Virginia, where I think the circ rates were lower than they are here in Denver







.

Are you planning to deliver at PSL in Denver? I work at a hospital in Ft. Collins and spend a reasonable amount of time visiting the NICU here b/c I teach a class for the parents. I know that our babies who are too young or small to stay up here go to PSL, so I imagine that the NICU nurses up here would be somewhat familiar with their practices. I'm going to be off line and out of the office for the next week, but I'll see if I can pick anyone's brain re circ rates down there and procedures.

I do agree that talking with you babies' nurses (on all shifts) and the charge nurses is a good idea just so they are familiar with your wishes and can let you know what the process is there. Like others have said, it isn't likely going to happen early on in a NICU stay, though, since it is usually done shortly before they send the babies home.


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## vachi73 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi Christa - we are planning to deliver at either P/SL or Rose, depending on how far I get. If before 30 weeks, we will probably go to P/SL; if after 30-32 weeks, probably at Rose because it's walking distance from our house, has a Level 3a NICU, and is a little smaller overall (therefore less intimidating) than P/SL. However, my MFM docs deliver at both, so either is still a possibility.

Any thoughts, experience, recommendations would definitely be appreciated. This whole pregnancy has been more or less a total disaster, sorry to say ... from violent vomiting since 6 weeks' gestation to a huge hemorrhage at 12.5 weeks to bedrest for the last 10 weeks ... *sigh* Somehow, "let's have a third" didn't seem nearly as crazy as it's turned out, with #3 and #4 on the way and mommy somewhat out of commission! But I think we will LOVE it if/when everyone is here, safe and sound, intact, and hopefully nursing up a storm







Just have to make it until then!!

Thanks for offering to help - I really appreciate it. Feel free to PM me if easier.


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

We just got home from being out of town. I'll see if I can find anything out for you.


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## smeep (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Just wanted to chime in with my two cents...

Sure, while a doctor or nurse intentionally doing something like circ deliberately against the parents wishes _is_ possible, it's very unlikely.
The U.S. is a very litigious society. Practically all the doctors and nurse I know work because they have families to support and bills to pay. Likewise, hospitals are in business to make a profit and there is so much competition their good standing in the community is highly prized (maybe it's a different story if they are the only hospital in a 50 mile radius or something).

I don't think a doctor/nurse/hospital would do something to a patient out of spite for fear of a lawsuit (rightfully so). If a doctor did this, not only would he/she be sued, but the insurance company would drop them and the hospital would most likely drop his/her admitting privileges. Without a hospital or insurance to back them, the doctor can't work, and can't pay his bills and looses his livelihood.

Ah, but if you read the whole bit (in the link) on the case in Dallas, apparently the doctor has been sued TWICE for it (and there's no telling how many other times he did it but just wasn't prosecuted for it) and was STILL allowed to continue practicing. The quoted case was settled for a mere $230,000 and the doctor was reprimanded for "failure to practice medicine in an acceptable manner." That's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, yet not only did he mutilate a child IN SPITE OF the parents, but this was his SECOND legal go-round for it!

So, while what you say is _mostly_ true, when it comes to circumcision (and many obstetrically-related things), very rarely are there any _true_ consequences. Doctors who circumcise an infant without parental consent, and especially AGAINST extremely vocal refusals, _should_ lose their licenses at minimum, that is simply not the case for most. All because circumcision is seen as something that's "not the end of the world" (to quote the dear Dr. Taylor). It's this attitude that keeps RIC from falling under the same legal and ethical category as FGM.


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## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

*I haven't read the three pages of replies, but I wanted to say that when my DS was born, we had to sign a refusal of consent for his vit K and eye prophylaxis. There was an "other" space, so I wrote circumcision and Hep B on there too. Maybe you could do something like that?*


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeep* 
Ah, but if you read the whole bit (in the link) on the case in Dallas, apparently the doctor has been sued TWICE for it (and there's no telling how many other times he did it but just wasn't prosecuted for it) and was STILL allowed to continue practicing. The quoted case was settled for a mere $230,000 and the doctor was reprimanded for "failure to practice medicine in an acceptable manner." That's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, yet not only did he mutilate a child IN SPITE OF the parents, but this was his SECOND legal go-round for it!

Just one correction. It was $23,000, not 230,000. Almost nothing in other words. Not much of a deterrent.


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