# consequence for not picking up the toys



## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

ok, i've had enough. my 4.5 ds has SUCH a hard time with toy pickup. it's an easy system in that we have a playroom and every single thing has a "home". he usually takes toys out of the playroom and into the living room, dining room and kitchen. he just doesn't want to put them back. he makes it very clear when he says a) "i don't want to, b) "you do it", or c) "i'm too tired (or something like that).
i am tired of it. we are neat people so there is no lack of modeling. we offer to help and until now, i've just picked it up myself saying something along the lines of "we're family and we all live here together and it's everyone's responsibility to make our house nice to live in, blahblahblah. " not always all of that. i try to keep it brief when he's actually listening.
my latest idea is to have the rule that if i have to pick it up alone and he is able to help or do it himself then the toys go into timeout.
my questions are:
1) is this just totally wrong of me to do? if so, tell me why and offer alternatives
2) if it's ok, then how does he actually get the toy back - time period? doing something specific? what?
please help me. i am so tired of MULTIPLE issues with my 4.5 year old, but this is the one i'm tackling first.


----------



## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Dd is 3 and if we have more toys than she is willing to help clean up then some of them get put into the closet. I don't see it as a consequence since it's not something I verbalize or that she really seems to notice. It's just a way of making my life easier and the logic is if we have too many toys, lets cut down some.

More than half of dd toys are in the closet and it's cut down on the big messes. If she wants a toy out we first do a little clean up in her room and then she can trade one out. Same thing goes for books.

It also helps her not lose interest in her toys. She gets really excited to get out a 'new' toy she hasn't played with in awhile.

Some moms may not do this but if there is a huge mess and dd refuses to help at all I make her sit in one spot until she is ready to help. She's free to get up whenever she is ready to help, which usually only takes a second or two. I don't mind helping but she needs to understand that when we make a mess we help clean it up. That's part of being responsible in our play.


----------



## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:

my latest idea is to have the rule that if i have to pick it up alone and he is able to help or do it himself then the toys go into timeout.
This is what I have been doing with my 3.5 year old and I can say that it works with her, but a part of me feels icky about it. On the one hand, it seems like an appropriate "natural consequence" to me and that is how I frame it to dd: if you can not clean up your toys, then you can not play with them. But, on the other hand, a part of me thinks that I am just justifying making threats of punitive manipulation and that makes me feel, well, as I said, icky. I will also mention that I have never actually had to follow through: as soon as I tell her that toys that she does not at least HELP clean up can no longer be played with, so starts cleaning up. So, as I said, it has "worked" for us. But something about it seems wrong to me.

I am interested in what others have to say about it.


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

I throw them away. Or put them away until she's ready to pick up what she destroys. (She's 2...but she's smart. She knows darn well what I'm talking about when I tell her to do something).

She has a kitchen center in the kitchen. She doesn't play with any of the accessories, she just throws them ALL over the floor. I packed them up and put them upstairs. When she's ready to play/pick up all 100 pieces, she can have them back. I'm tired of having the kitchen look like a tornado went through (and stepping on them














.

I actually really did throw some stuff away once. I was cleaning and asked her to pick up THREE items. She flat out refused, threw more on the floor. I told her, "Pick them up or they're going into the trash can." I started putting them in the trash. She said "No, mommy. No." THEN, she picked them up. This mama means business. I don't give a rat's butt about material objects and will throw them away if she can't pick them up







(Either really throw them away or put them away until she's old enough to pick them up).

This will be the standing rule as she gets older. Don't pick up toys=toys get thrown or "thrown" away. Seems fair to me.

(My flame proof suit is all zipped up. Fire away!







)


----------



## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
This is what I have been doing with my 3.5 year old and I can say that it works with her, but a part of me feels icky about it. On the one hand, it seems like an appropriate "natural consequence" to me and that is how I frame it to dd: if you can not clean up your toys, then you can not play with them. But, on the other hand, a part of me thinks that I am just justifying making threats of punitive manipulation and that makes me feel, well, as I said, icky. I will also mention that I have never actually had to follow through: as soon as I tell her that toys that she does not at least HELP clean up can no longer be played with, so starts cleaning up. So, as I said, it has "worked" for us. But something about it seems wrong to me.

I am interested in what others have to say about it.

I do & feel the same as you. I say something like "whoever picks them up gets to decide where to put them - if I pick them up I will put them somewhere out of reach". It often works but it definitely feels wrong/icky. I too will be following this thread for hopefully better ideas.

I do like the idea of putting alot of toys away then doing trading out.


----------



## MammaV (Jul 13, 2002)

I feel that if a child cannot manage picking up his/her toys, then there are too many. I pack up the toys the kids cannot manage and they can get them later. It might be a month or two. After they've been picked up and out of site, we go through them first when it's time to donate to charity. I feel that we live in a way too materialistic society and kids have way more than they need. I don't feel bad about getting rid the overabundance of toys!


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaV* 
I feel that if a child cannot manage picking up his/her toys, then there are too many. I pack up the toys the kids cannot manage and they can get them later. It might be a month or two. After they've been picked up and out of site, we go through them first when it's time to donate to charity. I feel that we live in a way too materialistic society and kids have way more than they need. I don't feel bad about getting rid the overabundance of toys!









:


----------



## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

okay, glad i'm not alone...thanks for the replies.
first, we've tried doing the toy "library" thing where we keep many in the attic, some in the playroom and we trade. problem is he wants us carting things to and fro about once or twice a day. the rule was if you want this out of the attic then something has to go to the attic and he'd choose what he'd be willing to give up only to want to trade to have it back the next day. oddly, this child has a ton of toys and knows them all well and plays with all of them. biggest infractions are train sets (we have a wooden set, my old "junky" train from when i was a child, and my dad's lionel very nice train). he'll want to set up a train going through a city and will incorporate all of his little people stuff (airport, parking garage, school, main street), then he'll get out the plastic bricks (1950's style legos) and build some buildings. then it's the wooden blocks to make roads/sidewalks. then it's the miniscule little signs and trees and power poles. then he's done and moves on leaving this city on my dining room table while he wants to go run in the yard or something. he doesn't want to set it up in the playroom on the floor if that's what you're thinking. we've tried that.








how do your children handle the toy "library". i guess i should just make a rule that toys get exchanged on such and such day just like our library books do. like it or lump it.
so, any ideas on the returning of toys that i had to pick up? maybe if i instill the toy library exchange day that the impounded toys go into that system and can be retrieved on the next exchange day?

on a side note - to those that felt it was wrong to essentially "punish" not picking up toys - can you tell me why? i kind of feel the same way, but i can't figure out a way for him to learn THIS IS WHAT WE DO! if i just keep saying it but don't actually follow through with some sort of action, it seems that he just listens, does his own thing, and is perfectly accepting of me cleaning up his messes. this includes cups and plates, clothes, shoes, coats - things that he puts where he last used them and they never end up where they need to go unless i put them there.

maybe this is a whole other thread, but how is this consequence of pick it up (or at least help) or it's gone (for a while or permanently) truly hurting a child?


----------



## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

honestly at 4.5 is to overwhelming often my nearly 5y/o ds has difficulty with it.
eventhough h only has a couple of baskets of toys out
I get a handpuppet (we have many) and it tells him what to get and where to put it. we usually do this whilst I make lunch and whilst I make dinner. I might point really annoying things out inbetween.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
on a side note - to those that felt it was wrong to essentially "punish" not picking up toys - can you tell me why? i kind of feel the same way, but i can't figure out a way for him to learn THIS IS WHAT WE DO!

I don't punish not picking up toys. I *do* weed out toys that are no longer used to donate (nothing the kids want), and rotate toys to keep the toys more manageable. But I don't throw away or remove toys because they haven't been picked up (in the interest of honesty, if a particular toy/mess is driving me crazy, I will quietly store it for a while, but would bring it back out if they asked for it. But "out of sight, out of mind" sometimes works).

Playful parenting usually helps my young kids clean up. We sing the clean up song, race to pick up the most toys, have challenges to toss toys into a basket, etc. But playful parenting also drives me nuts a lot of the time









What usually works best for us is to have the kids pick up toys right before doing something else really cool/fun. Does your son go out in the yard alone, or do you go with him? If he needs your cooperation (you go with him), I'd simply say, "We'll go out as soon as these trains are picked up. Do you want to do the trains or the tracks?" If he goes out on his own, I'd call him in and say "You may go out as soon as these trains are picked up......." I guess that is punishment, technically (if he doesn't pick them up, he doesn't go out), but that is our habit around here. Messes in their room can stay messy, although I do require my 8 yo to tidy up her room before having friends over.

A big BUT.....while my 8 yo is really good at this now, and accepts it as "what we do", she was NOT really good at it at 4. 4 is young--too young to expect tidy behaviors, imo. It doesn't sound like you are asking him to clean up alone, but my dd would NOT have cleaned alone at that age. At 8, she does.

Another thing--it sounds like your dc plays with his toys *amazingly*. And he might choose your dining room/living room over the playroom because it is closer to his people. And, he might resist cleaning up his train masterpieces because he plans to continue playing with it later. Just things to consider. Maybe have set times of the day to clean up those spaces (dining room before dinner, living room at bedtime), and let it go the rest of the day if it is organized chaos?


----------



## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

I've been struggling with this too. DD will be 4 on Saturday, so it's the same age-range. Her favorite thing to tell me when I ask her to clean up is "But it's too hard!"









Someone upthread mentioned playful parenting, and that's what's worked best for us, too. We make it a game. We've pretended pirates were coming and we had to hide and bury our "treasure" (the toys were the treasure, the treasure chest was the toybox. Daddy was the pirate, and he was in the shower. So when he was done in his shower, we had everything all cleaned up and DD ran to him, yelling, "You can't have my treasure! AAAAAAAARGGGGH!







: ) We've pretended we had rising water and we had to put all our friends (stuffed animals) in their boat (the stuffed animal box). The more fun and giggles involved, the more likely she is to help out.

Something that I've found that helps to curb the mess a bit (and, OP, it sounds like you're already doing this) is to make sure everything has a place, and we're going to stop using the toybox. I'm planning on getting a wall unit with totes from Ikea, and seperating toys out (fairies in this box, crayons in that one) so that it is super easy to find what the girls are looking for. I find that the biggest mess I deal with on a daily basis is what's left behind when she's trying to dig a barbie shoe out of her toybox.









We're going to be moving my girls into the bigger bedroom soon, and that's when we'll be doing the major toy storage change. I have big plans for that bedroom









Looking forward to reading more ideas!


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My first question would be what level of neatness are you expecting from him. I think you can have an expectation that, say, all toys will be put away at X time and again before bed. But to expect everything to be neat basically all the time might be a losing battle.

I would do like I said above - a couple of times a day say, "It's time to pick up now." And start picking up and give specific tasks for him to do, like, "Put the trucks into this bin." One task at a time. And I wouldn't expect him to think of cleaning up on his own till he's older.

I don't personally do the toy time-out thing because I try to avoid punishment, but that isn't an over-the-top punishment if you're OK with that kind of thing. A set amount of time seems arbitrary. Maybe until the next time he cleans up? IMO if you are going to use a punishment, the less arbitrary it is, the more likely it'll actually teach something.


----------



## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

I do try to keep in mind that it can be overwhelming for him. He's still just a little guy, you know? So, in that vein, I do a lot of encouraging and positive reinforcement. I think it's silly to tell him, "go pick up" and expect him to do it the "right" way and pick them all up, without getting distracted or wandering away. Hell, I can't even do that sometimes! So, I try to ask very specific things and do it in small bites that make it easily accessible for him (i.e.: "pick up all your cars and put them in the blue bin, then come tell me when you are finished" "now find all the legos and put them in the lego box and come tell me when you are finished")

They need so much reminding and reinforcement at this age, it's just not going to happen on its own.

If he just resists and is being a goose about it, I read a technique that I LOVE and use frequently. Each family member of age has a box or bin for this purpose, and when I get frustrated and meet with real resistance, I pick up their stuff, and it goes into the boxes. It's like a time-out, and in order to get the things out of time out, the person does an extra thing around the house to free the item. We call it "jail", and they have to do a chore to get it "out of jail".

Again, keeping it simple, concise and clear are my keys to having success.


----------



## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks for this thread!

We have similar issues with our 5 y.o. I think putting toys in "timeout" sounds great. We just threaten to throw them out but never really do, which is awful (not to follow through).

I agree with the poster who said they have too many toys if this is happening. We often talk about how our DD would be happier if she only had about 3 toys. Honestly she just scatters things about and then forgets about them.


----------



## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
okay, glad i'm not alone...thanks for the replies.
first, we've tried doing the toy "library" thing where we keep many in the attic, some in the playroom and we trade. problem is he wants us carting things to and fro about once or twice a day. the rule was if you want this out of the attic then something has to go to the attic and he'd choose what he'd be willing to give up only to want to trade to have it back the next day. oddly, this child has a ton of toys and knows them all well and plays with all of them. biggest infractions are train sets (we have a wooden set, my old "junky" train from when i was a child, and my dad's lionel very nice train). he'll want to set up a train going through a city and will incorporate all of his little people stuff (airport, parking garage, school, main street), then he'll get out the plastic bricks (1950's style legos) and build some buildings. then it's the wooden blocks to make roads/sidewalks. then it's the miniscule little signs and trees and power poles. then he's done and moves on leaving this city on my dining room table while he wants to go run in the yard or something. he doesn't want to set it up in the playroom on the floor if that's what you're thinking. we've tried that.








how do your children handle the toy "library". i guess i should just make a rule that toys get exchanged on such and such day just like our library books do. like it or lump it.
so, any ideas on the returning of toys that i had to pick up? maybe if i instill the toy library exchange day that the impounded toys go into that system and can be retrieved on the next exchange day?

on a side note - to those that felt it was wrong to essentially "punish" not picking up toys - can you tell me why? i kind of feel the same way, but i can't figure out a way for him to learn THIS IS WHAT WE DO! if i just keep saying it but don't actually follow through with some sort of action, it seems that he just listens, does his own thing, and is perfectly accepting of me cleaning up his messes. this includes cups and plates, clothes, shoes, coats - things that he puts where he last used them and they never end up where they need to go unless i put them there.

maybe this is a whole other thread, but how is this consequence of pick it up (or at least help) or it's gone (for a while or permanently) truly hurting a child?


OK.. this system is too complicated for ME to understand, I can only imagine how your 4.5 year old feels!!

I think the main thing is consistency. You cannot play with something else until you've cleaned up your mess. End of story. No questions, no fuss.


----------



## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Another thing--it sounds like your dc plays with his toys *amazingly*. And he might choose your dining room/living room over the playroom because it is closer to his people. And, he might resist cleaning up his train masterpieces because he plans to continue playing with it later. Just things to consider. Maybe have set times of the day to clean up those spaces (dining room before dinner, living room at bedtime), and let it go the rest of the day if it is organized chaos?

I agree and you are brilliant! If your child thrives on routine, maybe you should set times to clean up specific areas.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I try not to see it as "punitive". I see it as "helping the child by reducing the toys to a managable level." Most of the time, with young children, it's truly a matter of the child being overwhelmed, and removing the extra toys IS helping them, and the do appreciated it (though they don't always appreciate it at the time you're pruning the toys.)

Sometimes, though, older children DO test limits or try to manipulate you into doing things they're capable of doing themselves. In those situations, threatening to take toys away if they're not cleaned up may take on a bit of a "punitive" edge, but an appropriate one. You give a verbal warning- "You clean up the toys or I'll put them away where you can't reach them." If the child is truly unable to clean up the toys herself, you're helping by reducing the toy load. If the child is testing limits and doenst' want to lose the toys, he or she will quickly put the toys away. If the child needs to "lose" toys first to understand that you're serious, that's OK.

I don't make "threats" I won't follow through on. I'd never say "I'm throwing out your toys" (except the broken ones) because I don't throw away things when they can be reused or recycled. I DO remove toys to locations a child can't reach, offering to return the toy in a day or a week (depending on how often the child was having trouble cleaning up and his or her general attitude towards cleanup). Getting toys back is usually contingent on good behavior- taking care of the toys that are left. If the child truly has too many toys, and/or the child consistently leaves a certain toy to be stepped on, I'll donate the toy to a thrift store or offer it on freecycle. I don't throw out toys, but I do give them away.


----------



## ChinaDoll (Jul 27, 2003)

I like the idea of a toy library (we do rotate toys periodically) but would simplify your rules, with some hard and fast guidelines, like "we ONLY trade toys on Tuesdays" (or whatever day) once a week and stick to it. And maybe get him a little wagon that he could use to pull toys from the living room/etc back to his playroom at the end of the day.


----------



## MammaV (Jul 13, 2002)

We do scheduled cleanups throughout the day. We clean up before lunch, before DH comes home from work and before bed. I set the timer for 15 minutes and we all go as fast as we can to pick up. The whole family scurries around putting things away. I also made sure that every toy has a home. I have lots of bins and baskets from IKEA that are labeled for their purpose. It's quite easy for DS who's 4 to push his bin around and throw playmobile pirate stuff in it, slam the lid on and push it to its place. We have a basket in the living room for library books only. Our toy box holds our duplos and nothing else. I put board books and small books in baskets and on the bookshelves. It's so much easier for a kid to throw 6 or 10 books in a basket and pop it on the bookshelf than to carry each one all the way back to the bedroom and carefully place them on the shelf! I'm amazed at how much the 2yo can pick up and put away. He gets right in there and helps.
My kids all have chores. They're expected to help set the table, clear the table, the 7 yo can run the washing machine and dryer and often helps there. She is also adept with the vaccuum! The two older ones put their own clothes away and help fold clothes. The 4 yo clears the dirty clothes out of the bathroom each day. All the kids love to dust.
I've found that by having the expectation that we all live together, we all work together cheerfully helps to foster family togetherness and makes tidying tasks a normal pleasant part of the day, not something to be hated. We have a little friend who always says, "I hate cleaning". I try to make cleaning a normal happy part of everyday, so it's not a big deal. If you make a mess, clean it up. If you need help, ask. That's our motto.


----------



## patronia (Nov 28, 2007)

I'd make it clear that if they didn't clean up the toys they'd be put away until they could prove they would pick them up, then any that don't get picked up would be stored somewhere.


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I make it very clear that if he cannot take care of ALL his toys then it means he has too many and any toy (small, that fits in the toybox, obviously his ride ons don't fit) that is on the floor once I've asked him more than once to pick up I have a large box in the basement I pick them all up and they all go in the basement until he demonstrates with the toys he has left that he's able to care for them.

He got to the point once where I think he had 5 or 6 toys and the rest were in 'time out' he demonstrated with those few toys that he could pick up and he SLOWLY got the rest back. (yes, he has an obsene about of toys, I keep telling myself I need to major toy purge but I have enough going on right now without dealing with that)


----------



## sbrinton (Jul 17, 2008)

We also have a 4.5 year old. We have a lot of toys messes. And a lot of parent-child battles over the toys. And I think we probably have too many toys...

We do put toys in "time out" when the kids aren't taking care of them.

We also have a one box at a time rule (each box has one type of toy).

Recently, with a baby who is just about mobile, we're being much pickier about the boys picking up legos and other small toys that could be a choking hazard.

I don't know...basically we just make the boys clean up. No dinner, no snacks, no movies, no riding bikes, no playing with other toys, etc until the job is done.


----------



## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaV* 
We do scheduled cleanups throughout the day. We clean up before lunch, before DH comes home from work and before bed. I set the timer for 15 minutes and we all go as fast as we can to pick up. The whole family scurries around putting things away. I also made sure that every toy has a home. I have lots of bins and baskets from IKEA that are labeled for their purpose. It's quite easy for DS who's 4 to push his bin around and throw playmobile pirate stuff in it, slam the lid on and push it to its place. We have a basket in the living room for library books only. Our toy box holds our duplos and nothing else. I put board books and small books in baskets and on the bookshelves. It's so much easier for a kid to throw 6 or 10 books in a basket and pop it on the bookshelf than to carry each one all the way back to the bedroom and carefully place them on the shelf! I'm amazed at how much the 2yo can pick up and put away. He gets right in there and helps.
My kids all have chores. They're expected to help set the table, clear the table, the 7 yo can run the washing machine and dryer and often helps there. She is also adept with the vaccuum! The two older ones put their own clothes away and help fold clothes. The 4 yo clears the dirty clothes out of the bathroom each day. All the kids love to dust.
I've found that by having the expectation that we all live together, we all work together cheerfully helps to foster family togetherness and makes tidying tasks a normal pleasant part of the day, not something to be hated. We have a little friend who always says, "I hate cleaning". I try to make cleaning a normal happy part of everyday, so it's not a big deal. If you make a mess, clean it up. If you need help, ask. That's our motto.

Love it! I want my house to run just like THIS!


----------



## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
ok, i've had enough. my 4.5 ds has SUCH a hard time with toy pickup. it's an easy system in that we have a playroom and every single thing has a "home". he usually takes toys out of the playroom and into the living room, dining room and kitchen. he just doesn't want to put them back. he makes it very clear when he says a) "i don't want to, b) "you do it", or c) "i'm too tired (or something like that).
i am tired of it. we are neat people so there is no lack of modeling. we offer to help and until now, i've just picked it up myself saying something along the lines of "we're family and we all live here together and it's everyone's responsibility to make our house nice to live in, blahblahblah. " not always all of that. i try to keep it brief when he's actually listening.
my latest idea is to have the rule that if i have to pick it up alone and he is able to help or do it himself then the toys go into timeout.
my questions are:
1) is this just totally wrong of me to do? if so, tell me why and offer alternatives
2) if it's ok, then how does he actually get the toy back - time period? doing something specific? what?
please help me. i am so tired of MULTIPLE issues with my 4.5 year old, but this is the one i'm tackling first.

My kids are 4.5 & 3 (at least the ones who are old enough to pick up - the others are babies). We went through a LONG phase where no one would pick anything up. So I eventually told them that if Mom has to pick up the toys, then Mom is putting the toys away for 3 days. And that's what I did. For three long days their favorite toys were gone and they had the "boring" toys to play with.

It continued.

The next time I told them they'd lose the toys for a week, so they did.

Didn't seem to phase them. So finally one day they lost EVERY.SINGLE.TOY for a whole month. All they had were crayons, paper, books, play doh. That was it. They survived, and they actually were pretty impressively imaginative during that time, too!

Then I returned the toys and it dawned on me - *and this is what stands out in your post* - that maybe they just couldn't handle the level of organization I wanted. I used to have everything in bins and baskets too - Playmobil went here, building tools went there, blocks went here, puzzles went there....so I canned the whole organized thing and just gave them a big basket to throw everything into. And it worked!

In other words, every toy having a "home" may be an easy system for *you*, but overwhelming for *him*. You know?

Now my kids pick up wonderfully because they only have one place to put things, which is really what they needed at that point, and slowly I'm introducing little organizers again, and just taking it slowly.


----------



## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
In other words, every toy having a "home" may be an easy system for *you*, but overwhelming for *him*. You know?

Now my kids pick up wonderfully because they only have one place to put things, which is really what they needed at that point, and slowly I'm introducing little organizers again, and just taking it slowly.









thank you for telling me your experiences. i'm still hesitant b/c of a few things
1) we've tried a toy "bin" - a large rubbermaid tote that sat in the playroom. it was the source of endless frustration b/c somewhere in that big pile of carp was the one teeny tiny something or other that ds wanted and refused to try to find. so i had to do it or listen to him cry and complain. that's when items found a home.

2) he has different toys than he used to - some quite large and some small and some with a gazillion parts. so for example, he has a wooden train set in a large box to itself (with it's accessories). however, he likes to put his plastic signs (which are in a coffee can we all affectionately call the "junk bucket" - contains little tiny men, signs, cones, barricades, spare tires, etc...), and a few matchboxes (which are in a box to themselves), and a few plastic animals (another coffee can). he also throws in some buildings contructed from plastic bricks (in a basket). then he makes roads and sidewalks with wood blocks or jenga blocks (another basket). then he adds buildings like my old little people school, airport, parking garage, and main street (each set on shelves). now he has a whole town set up. when he's done, if we were able to find something big enough to hold it all, all the little stuff would get jumbled into the big stuff and that one red 1957 mustang with the missing right front hubcap and loose left door would be somewhere in the heap of toys (instead of it's home with a smaller amount of just little cars) and he'd have a hissy fit trying to find it, would dump EVERYTHING out of the large container, maybe find the car, and leave the rest sitting there. does that give you a headache just reading that or what?









3) he really does have too much stuff, i'll definitely agree to that and all i can say is that i bought very little of it. to his credit though, there is NOTHING he doesn't play with. NOTHING he doesn't truly care about. he remembers toys that i had to throw away two years ago because you just couldn't play with them anymore (an old yellow vw bug with no doors, no tires, loose wheels, and busted out windows comes to mind - he STILL asks about that bug to this day!) if we try to remove something to the attic, he wants it within a day or two and it's a pain to retrieve - that's why the "library" system never worked for us.

i'm just stumped. i can't figure out a way to change this without just completely abandoning my expectations. and for those who feel that 4.5 years isn't old enough to pick up after oneself, can you tell me why? i mean, i know that he won't always feel like it, just like i don't, but to flat out refuse and then obviously make up stuff like "i'm too tired" when it's noon seems to me to just be an excuse that he's fully aware of. it's obvious he'd just rather do something else so he does it.

also, to those who suggested that he doesn't want his toy masterpieces dismantled - i agree that is true. right now, i have my coffee table atop my dining room table with 3 trains on two levels. we've had picnics on the livingroom floor for 2 days straight. i want him to feel like this is his house and that i care about his "work". but this is different - it's the dumping of the junk bucket to find one cone and then refusing to put the contents back into the bucket. they then get kicked around the livingroom floor for about 3 hours, stepped on and broken, and then i eventually pick them up as it is "too hard" and "too tiring" for him to do. or the dog eats a piece and can't poop for three days. then he whines when he can't find the broken or consumed piece.

if you read this novel, bless you. i'm glad i was able to vent it all here!


----------



## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
thank you for telling me your experiences. i'm still hesitant b/c of a few things
1) we've tried a toy "bin" - a large rubbermaid tote that sat in the playroom. it was the source of endless frustration b/c somewhere in that big pile of carp was the one teeny tiny something or other that ds wanted and refused to try to find. so i had to do it or listen to him cry and complain. that's when items found a home.


I totally understand where you are coming from because my ds is the SAME WAY. We used to kind of have everything in a toy box but he would seriously panic and melt down when he couldn't find the toy he was looking for. And having one bin was just too overwhelming for him to dig through. I went out and bought the ITSO storage system from Target and gave everything a home and it has really changed things for the better. If he is looking for a toy hammer, he goes to the "tools" bin. If he is looking for a toy dump truck, he goes to the "cars" bin. Etc., etc.

But on the flip side with such an extreme level of organization I don't expect him to be the one to clean things up. My ds is only 3.5 and I don't know what my expectations will be in a year, but I think they will still be pretty lax when it comes to cleaning up toys. As of right now I clean up all the toys. Pretty much any time they are getting out of hand or I am passing by I just scoop up a couple and put them where they belong. I put every toy back at the end of the night before bed and he helps with that, but I give him one very specific and focused task. Example: I hand him the toy food bin, and ask him to walk all over the house and put any toy food he finds away in it. He usually finishes that one task in the time it takes me to clean and sort everything else.

Because I don't want huge disasters and I can't spend all my time cleaning up toys, there are a few things that are kept in the closet and only taken out on request one at a time, and put away together when he is done. These are:
-Lincoln Logs
-Puzzles
-Wooden train tracks
-Art supplies
-Legos
-Viewmasters
-Bowling Set

And then there are a few items that I keep in bins in the closet that he can play with whenever he wants and keep out as long as he wants, but I keep them separate so that they aren't always dumped out in a huge pile on the floor:
-Matchbox Cars
-Schleich Animals
-Plastic snap lock beads & links
-Wooden blocks


----------



## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Our situation is a bit more complicated because with two children it's not fair to take away one's toys when it's the other's fault. But usually I explain that if we don't take care of the toys by putting them away we can't have the toys and they go away for a couple of days to a week.

Last night I told her to put the duplo away while I put the megablocks away so we could have our story. She refused, so we didn't have a story (I had to put both away, so no time for a story).

As for toy bins, we have several baskets that go into a shelf. Supposedly each one has a theme, but in reality they can shove everything in where there's space and every few weeks I'll sort it all again. Smaller baskets are easier to sort through.


----------



## dahlialia (Mar 22, 2009)

We live in a small-ish house, and most of DD's toys are located in the living room and dining room, so common areas for all of us. Plus we have a large dog, and 2 cats.

We have the rule that a toy/activity needs to go away when it is done being used (this goes for adults too!). If DD doesn't, and I need to clean up after her, I do put the toy away for 24 hours.

I don't view it as punitive, nor do I explain it that way. Toys that get left out are likely to get damaged or lost, and so I simulate that to help DD learn. She did learn quickly when she left an etch a sketch out, I didn't see it, and stepped on it and broke it. I see the 24 hour time out as a lesser version of a toy being broken or lost.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

That is absolutely not an over-the-top punishment, and it's absolutely within the realm of GD, but it is punitive. The definition of "punishment" is to use a negative consequence in an attempt to teach, and that's precisely what it is.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

To the OP - not something I do but something I saw on a home organization TV program: They said to use only clear bins the child can see through AND to tape a picture of the item inside on the outside of the bin where it's easily seen. I guess that figuring out what goes in which box is a later developmental thing so the more VERY obvious that can be, the easier a time very young children will have. According to the show anyway.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

First thought: how about a wagon he can push around to gather up all the toys then push them back to his room.

Second thoughts: if he's going to be too tired to get the toys back to his room then
a. toys need to stay in his room and/or
b. toys need to get a home in the living room
c. he needs a longer nap or a second nap each day.

ETA:
Sounds like trains are a big hobby of his? How about building an actual train table in his play room with things like holes in the middle like the adult train hobbyests use? I think the ideal height for that would be at his chest so there'd still be room under the table for him to play other games even if the table takes up half the room.

Even just a couple of desks with a sheet of plywood between them would probably work and would also provide some drawers for a bit of storage.


----------



## keilonwy (Dec 4, 2007)

nak

Since he seems quite detail oriented and capable of handling lots of information at once ("I want to put that specific toy there. Where is it? It's in the attic. I have to get Mom to get it."), maybe he would be able to handle some of the more complex organizational systems that people here have suggested. I'm currently parenting a baby, but this thread has gotten me thinking since tidiness is fairly important to me.

If it's too much for him to actually put things away in the smaller organizational bins, how would you feel about having the one large one which is where toys go when he helps to clean up, and then separating them out into smaller bins later yourself? It seems (to my theoretical mind) like then he learns to help clean up, but won't get burned out or overstimulated by too many places for things to go.

If trying new organization or the other suggestions here don't work, I really liked the idea of "jail" for toys. I don't necessarily think that GD means living a life totally free of any parentally imposed consequences. If your child is old enough to understand the logic of it, I think a logical consequence is fine (within reason, of course!). It's perfectly logical for toys to be taken from circulation if they're not taken care of, and after stepping on lots of my niece's Legos, I think that you can do that out of concern for your own feet. The toys being left out doesn't just affect your son, it affects the whole family.


----------



## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That is absolutely not an over-the-top punishment, and it's absolutely within the realm of GD, but it is punitive. The definition of "punishment" is to use a negative consequence in an attempt to teach, and that's precisely what it is.

Actually, "discipline" means to teach. Punishment is the imposition of something negative in response to disobedience.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
Actually, "discipline" means to teach. Punishment is the imposition of something negative in response to disobedience.

I'm aware of that but if you'll read the post I responded to, she said it wasn't *punitive*. We weren't talking about the word discipline. And punishment means to give a negative consequence. I guess punitive discipline is negative consequences in an effort to teach, but anyway that's what she was saying - that she was giving these consequences to teach.


----------



## AAK (Aug 12, 2004)

Just because something is negative, doesn't mean it is punishment. I think "toy jail" (our name for it), weeding toys out to reduce clutter, and not being able to do something until the toys are put away are in line with gentle discipline. Just because the child gets sad about a consequence doesn't mean it is a bad consequence. For the 4/5 yr old group, "toy jail" works great around here. I work it like this. Ask child to clean up the toys. If things aren't happening--cleaning wise, then I say something more specific like "put the blocks in the container and the books on the shelf". If the mess is big, I do help but again "Would you like to pick up the blocks or the books, I will do the other." After this, and toys are still not being picked up, I let them know that they have 10 minutes to finish. Whatever isn't picked up will be in "toy jail". I say it matter of factly-- NOT yelling or mad or whatever. After the 10 minutes, I use a box or bag and everything else goes in that. I wait until the next big toy roundup (we have what is called "Sat. morning cleanup") and many little cleanups. So, most the time the wait is one or two days. If everyone cooperates then, I offer the box back. They have to put the toys away that are in the box if they want them back. If they don't want to do anymore cleaning that is fine. If they have denied the toys a couple times, then I use it as a sign that they aren't really interested in those ones anymore and we move them to the place I put toys that may be getting ready for donation.

This is great for 4/5 yr olds. I start teaching in earnest with 3 year olds. My kids at 6/7/8 KNOW that toy jail is their and I just mention the word and everything is picked up. NOW, I have a problem with my nine year old. Toy jail just doesn't do it anymore. Working on new strategies.

Amy


----------



## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm aware of that but if you'll read the post I responded to, she said it wasn't *punitive*. We weren't talking about the word discipline. And punishment means to give a negative consequence. I guess punitive discipline is negative consequences in an effort to teach, but anyway that's what she was saying - that she was giving these consequences to teach.

I mentioned the word "discipline" because that is the word that means to teach. The strict definition of punishment, however intended, does not include anything about the whys and hows of said punishment.

I read the post you've responded to; I've read the whole thread.

And I don't think taking toys away is necessarily punitive. It all depends on how it's done.


----------



## reezley (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaV* 
We do scheduled cleanups throughout the day. We clean up before lunch, before DH comes home from work and before bed. I set the timer for 15 minutes and we all go as fast as we can to pick up. The whole family scurries around putting things away. I also made sure that every toy has a home. I have lots of bins and baskets from IKEA that are labeled for their purpose. It's quite easy for DS who's 4 to push his bin around and throw playmobile pirate stuff in it, slam the lid on and push it to its place. We have a basket in the living room for library books only. Our toy box holds our duplos and nothing else. I put board books and small books in baskets and on the bookshelves. It's so much easier for a kid to throw 6 or 10 books in a basket and pop it on the bookshelf than to carry each one all the way back to the bedroom and carefully place them on the shelf! I'm amazed at how much the 2yo can pick up and put away. He gets right in there and helps.
My kids all have chores. They're expected to help set the table, clear the table, the 7 yo can run the washing machine and dryer and often helps there. She is also adept with the vaccuum! The two older ones put their own clothes away and help fold clothes. The 4 yo clears the dirty clothes out of the bathroom each day. All the kids love to dust.
I've found that by having the expectation that we all live together, we all work together cheerfully helps to foster family togetherness and makes tidying tasks a normal pleasant part of the day, not something to be hated. We have a little friend who always says, "I hate cleaning". I try to make cleaning a normal happy part of everyday, so it's not a big deal. If you make a mess, clean it up. If you need help, ask. That's our motto.

Thank you for the spirit of your post and the specific ideas in it! I'm getting ideas all over this thread, about the helping and the organizing, so glad it's here. My approach so far has been for me to just clean up toys, a bit throughout the day, or once toward the end of the day, I don't stress about it really. They are pretty good about helping when I ask, actually, but I believe it would be useful for them to start learning to help routinely.


----------



## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

It would be interesting to see what you son says about this. Have you tried talking to him about it when you're both relaxed? You know, the "this family has this problem, how can we solve it" talk. He may just say he just doesn't want to! Or he may provide some insights. I'd also have another adult talk to him about it, out of my hearing. Sometimes kids share really valuable insights into themselves with the person they are not in the conflict with, or at least that's what I have found with my son.

My son loved trains and outgrew his train table in a week! He would make these elaborate tracks that spanned the living/dining room and wanted to work on them for days. So, we made a deal. He was allowed to keep out tracks but trains had to go into a bin next to them for the night. All other toys went "to bed" in the evening as well. If we were having company, I'd tell him a few days in advance that the tracks were going to have to go back in the big bin and when.

This is such a vexing issue. The mama that figures out the sure-fire solution will be a very rich woman...and she'll deserve it!


----------



## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

If I am the one cleaning up the toys then we only keep enough toys out that I don't cleaning up by myself if by chance they don't want to help come clean up time.. My kids like to have a lot of toys to choose from though, so they participate in the scheduled clean ups (we have 2 each day) and we all work together. Right now they have a toy room full of toys that is easy for all of us to keep picked up, but there are some toys they aren't as good about cleaning up that we keep in a closet and take out to play with when we want and then put it back. For these toys the playroom has to be clean before I will take it out, then we clean it up before we play with some thing else again. Generally these are the toys with lots of "parts" so this works for us. We don't "discipline" over the issue though, we have just learned what are limits are for readily accessible toys


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I guess I'm a maverick.









We have toys in pretty much every room. I strongly feel that this is my son's home as well as mine and that his "stuff" is every bit as important and beautiful as my stuff. Perhaps more so since my brain is not soaking everything in all the time.

So we don't have a rule that toys have to be removed from the living room or whatever. There are places for the toys in each room. He does have a big train set up in the living room and as long as the trains are on the tracks or in the basket, that's considered tidied up. It would be a LOT of work for him to recreate that each time.

We pretty much have the rhythm thing going on with chores - my son helps with the dishes, wiping out the sink and bathtub (just with water), dusting, mopping, laundry, meal preparation, window washing, and yardwork. In other words a lot of the time he just works beside me (in between bouts of play).

So the same goes with tidying up - when it's tidying up time we do that together too.

We do rotate toys because we don't have infinite "out" space for them, but I don't really believe in the idea that if he isn't willing to tidy up some days that means he has too many toys. I believe it either means he's overwhelmed and needs a hand, or it means he's had a lot of demands on him lately and that's why he's digging his heels in.

Now, if there are a lot of toys with no home or our bins are full, that means too many toys.

But I have to say the biggest factor is that we tidy up together. I never tell him to "go tidy up your toys" because my feeling is that he's just not quite ready for that yet. (He's almost 4.) He does spontaneously tidy his own toys up about oh, 10 per cent of the time or so, and that's great.

I basically don't believe my need for a tidy home trumps his need for toys... yes we both need to clean up, but I would be so mad if I left fabric out and my husband said I had too many crafts and threw it out, or whatever.


----------



## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

:







:

GuildJenn, every time you post I fall a little bit more in love with you.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
my latest idea is to have the rule that if i have to pick it up alone and he is able to help or do it himself then the toys go into timeout.
my questions are:
1) is this just totally wrong of me to do? if so, tell me why and offer alternatives
2) if it's ok, then how does he actually get the toy back - time period? doing something specific? what?

I've tried this before. It did NOT accomplish what I wanted it to accomplish though. What I *wanted* to happen was for him to pick up after himself (with my help if it was a lot of work, but for him to at least to a big share of it). What happened was that he would pick up the stuff he wanted to keep out, then leave the rest for me to "put up high."
He was being totally matter-of-fact. He wasn't being defiant or anything like that at all. It just made sense to him- if he doesn't care if he has it for a few days (or whatever), then he may as well let me put it up high. lol.

So I had to change it and just say that he has to pick up his stuff, period. What we've found works best is to tell him that he has to pick up his stuff, they are his toys, etc. I do emphasize that we are a family and work together, and that dp or I will help if he needs/wants help. Then I try to figure out what help he needs, or give him small specific directions "ok, pick up all the cars" etc.

When I get excuses, I pretty much give him a look







that says that I'm not interested in hearing it AT ALL. lol.

eta- I wanted to say that I think the toys going "up high" isn't bad if it's not done in a punitive way. I did it more like "there are so many toys that they are too hard for you to pick up" and "if I'm putting them away, I'm doing what's easiest for me".
So I don't really think it's a bad thing. I just think it's not teaching what we REALLY want them to learn, kwim?


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 







:







:

GuildJenn, every time you post I fall a little bit more in love with you.









Aw thank you!


----------



## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I guess I'm a maverick.









We have toys in pretty much every room. I strongly feel that this is my son's home as well as mine and that his "stuff" is every bit as important and beautiful as my stuff. Perhaps more so since my brain is not soaking everything in all the time.

So we don't have a rule that toys have to be removed from the living room or whatever. There are places for the toys in each room. He does have a big train set up in the living room and as long as the trains are on the tracks or in the basket, that's considered tidied up. It would be a LOT of work for him to recreate that each time.

We pretty much have the rhythm thing going on with chores - my son helps with the dishes, wiping out the sink and bathtub (just with water), dusting, mopping, laundry, meal preparation, window washing, and yardwork. In other words a lot of the time he just works beside me (in between bouts of play).

So the same goes with tidying up - when it's tidying up time we do that together too.

We do rotate toys because we don't have infinite "out" space for them, but I don't really believe in the idea that if he isn't willing to tidy up some days that means he has too many toys. I believe it either means he's overwhelmed and needs a hand, or it means he's had a lot of demands on him lately and that's why he's digging his heels in.

Now, if there are a lot of toys with no home or our bins are full, that means too many toys.

But I have to say the biggest factor is that we tidy up together. I never tell him to "go tidy up your toys" because my feeling is that he's just not quite ready for that yet. (He's almost 4.) He does spontaneously tidy his own toys up about oh, 10 per cent of the time or so, and that's great.

I basically don't believe my need for a tidy home trumps his need for toys... yes we both need to clean up, but I would be so mad if I left fabric out and my husband said I had too many crafts and threw it out, or whatever.

I agree with GuildJenn. We have created space in each room for a certain amount of toys and they mostly stay in those rooms (by her choice)...the only things that usually "travel" around are books. All our spaces are for living, which includes play. We do keep it all as tidy as possible so that we can put it out of the way if guests come, so taht our formal living room is, well, formal.

There are bins, boxes and shelves for each set of toys. Since DD was a very young toddler (she's now 4.5yo), we do, however, have a general rule that we clean up one mess of toys before taking out the next set. Sometimes it is playful parenting, other times it is just me reminding her that we can start X as soon as we finish cleaning up (and it is usually "we")...if she balks, I reminder that it will take much longer if I have to do it all by myself (and I start doing it as slooowly as humanly possible...that usually gets her moving and she then often turns it into a game herself. School has, of course, helped the cause as they have cleanup time there as well, so it has become routine for her...mostly.


----------

