# rice milk and breast milk



## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Has anyone ever mixed rice milk and breast milk. I am only pumping two bottles at work, pumping 4 times a day using the Pump In Style. My son is 4 months. My freezer stash is down to 2 bags of milk. I am having trouble keeping up. My left breast will not pump much. I do not want to give him formula. Most contain animal fat I know there is a Vegan formula out there.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Bumping you to the first page.

I dont know the answer to your question, but many of our wise mama's here do.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

According to Kellymom and others, if you aren't giving breastmilk you should be giving some kind of formula. (formula=artificial baby milk.) If you look at the list of ingredients on organic formula, it's not too bad.

http://www.babyorganic.com/php/

Rice milk actually says on the container, "not to be used as infant formula." It's too low fat. Babies need fat. You can choose which fat, but they need fat! Animal fat from organic cow's milk should be okay (no pesticides) if your child isn't sensitive to cow's milk proteins.

Now, let me tell you what I did when I pumped for my baby while I worked full time his first year.

1. if you nurse in bed, get up early and pump the breast on which you didn't nurse. You get the most milk pumping early in the morning. aFter you pump the breast, also nurse on that side. Supercharge it by adding extra demand!

2. Pump as many times as you can during the day at work. Better a very short pumping session several times than a longer one.

3. Do drink Mother's Milk tea or Weleda Nursing tea or any herbal tea that isn't mint. (Mint is drying. ) Check this website:

http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/

to make sure that your herbal tea isn't drying you up. Warm liquid will help. Even coffee can increase your pumping yields, if it's hot!

4. Herbs that helped me: nettles, blessed thistle, fenugreek.

5. Vitamins helped me even MORE--B vitamin supplement with inositol. My diet looked perfectly adequate for B vitamins, but the extra inositol and Bs helped me to let down for the pump. Also try lecithin, has lots of inositol and helps to prevent blocked ducts--or so they say!

6. Pump at least once in the early morning on your days off. That will help you get the jump on the week. You will get a very good yield on Sunday morning early!

7. Eat a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast before work.

You can do this! I did! I didn't have perfect let down for the pump, and I managed with a lot of stress, and a lot of support from this site.


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## rbeaufoy (May 25, 2005)

I had similar problems with pumping...ended up having to supplement a bit with formula. We thought about using rice milk, but it doesn't have the same caloric or nutritional value as bm or formula. Do you have access to a goat? (goats milk is the most similar to human bm) Alot of babies are raised on goats milk...I was, and I turned out okay :LOL

Sorry can't be more helpful....but someone out there will be...MDC always comes through
















: R


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Do not give your baby rice milk! Or coconut milk, almond milk, soy milk, etc. They do not contain enough fat and they certainly don't have the proper vitamins and minerals your baby needs. Does soy formula contain animal products? I know that recent research suggests soy formula has toxic levels of manganese, so it isn't really safe for babies....Therefore, I'd suggest either organic formula - I know you don't want to use animal products, but this is your baby's health - or donor milk if you could get some. I hope it all works out!


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

I know rice milk cannot be used alone, I saw the label. I am asking about a mix of both in one bottle. I really would need this for one bottle, given once a day. I can make 3 bottles of pure breastmilk. Just not the four he sometimes needs. Is this still bad? Yes, soy formula has animal fat. I am not comfortable giving a boy too much soy. And no animal's milk is an option. Donor milk is not an option. I will just have to find a way to pump more or find the vegan formula. Or start solids for him to eat during the day while I am work, and give him 2 or 3 breast milk only bottles, then nurse him when I get home at night and before I go to work.

I have been eating a bowl of oatmeal everyday. I also have had the tea. I have taken Fenugreek. I also pump in the morning while he is nursing and at night. I pump four times at work. The most I can get is 3 bottles.


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## ExuberantDaffodil (May 22, 2005)

All these mamas give great advice.







I just had to add my two cents worth about the pumping. I currently have a 12m DS, and my sister just had a baby last month. She wasn't pumping very much and was afraid she would have to supplement with formula, which I wasn't too keen on. I showed her how to do breast compressions while pumping, and she went from pumping 1 1/2 oz out of each side to pumping a little over 3 ounces.... I am sure there are some great websites that show someone how to do breast compressions correctly, but the way I described it to my sis was to cup the breast and use your thumb to gently massage the breast while pumping. I also have to second the herbal recomendation. I drink Nursing Mom tea occasionally, and enjoy it. I also take two capsules of Fennugreek twice a day and I noticed a wonderful increase in breast milk production. It usually takes about two days before you see any change, so keep that in mind. And don't forget to drink lots of water and pamper yourself (or better yet, get your partner to do some pampering!)


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

I have taken Fenugreek for a week nothing. I am just going to go to an Hebalist/Holistic doctor who can make me up an herbal remedy.

Thanks guys


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Rice milk would be an acceptable beverage for a toddler or older infant- as a beverage, not as a replacement for breastmilk. At 4mo, rice milk is NOT appropriate and you need to either increase your pumping volumes ( I know this is easier said than done), obtain donated ebm, use formula, or a combination of those 3.

To the best of my knowledge, most commercial infant formulas contain either cow's milk protein or soy protein and vegetable fats. The only vegan formulas currently available are soy-based. Most, if not all soy formulas are completely vegan.

Theoretically, an infant formula could be made from vegetable protein sources other than soy, but none are commercially available and I don't know how to create a recipe for one. I beleive that dairy-based formulas are healthier than soy-based formulas for most babies, although soy formulas do contain adequate nutrition. If keeping your son on a vegan diet is of religious/spiritual importance to you, I'd suggest pumping all you can and supplementing with soy formula as needed. The dangers of soy formula are greatly reduced when you're using smaller amounts of it (supplementing with it, not feeding it full time.)

You've already gotten some good tips about increasing your pumping volume. I used to eat instant oatmeal in a coffee cup at my desk at work!! I also pumped several times a day at home in addition to pumping at work. I pumped every morning when I got up, whether it was a workday or not. Still, I can't say for certain I would have had enough ebm if I was working full-time- nursing on cue on alternate days was a huge boost to my supply.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility that you're pumping enough, but your baby might be getting too much ebm during the day.
Are you using bottles with slow-flow nipples?
How much is in each bottle, and how many bottles is he getting per day?
What is your working schedual like- how many days, what time do you leave for work and return?
Do you nurse right before and right after working?
How much is in each of those bottles in the freezer?


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Our non-dairy diet is for spiritual and cultural reasons. 80% of African people cannot digest milk. It only turns into a poison that reeks havoc on the body. Soy does not always mean dairy free. I will look when I go to the market though. Many have animal proteins that I saw. Maybe I saw wrong.

Are you using bottles with slow-flow nipples? slow
How much is in each bottle, and how many bottles is he getting per day? He drinks either 3 or 4 5 oz bottles.
What is your working schedual like- how many days, what time do you leave for work and return? I work 40 hours/5 days a week. Usually leave home at 7:00 or so. I get home by 5:30 pm
How much is in each of those bottles in the freezer? I try to pump 6 oz in each bag. If not, 5 ozs.

Do you nurse right before and right after working? I nurse around 6:00 am. I nurse when I get home around 5:30 pm. I probably nurse 5:30 pm, 7:30 pm, 8:30 and 9:30 pm. He goes to sleep around 10:00 pm. I basically nurse him every hour or so after 5:30 pm on.

Again, I dont want to put him exclusively on rice. I just want to know if *one*bottle of haf bm and rice will be a problem. I know I cant use it exclusively.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I think mixing 1/2 rice milk and 1/2 ebm would be about the same as mixing 1/2 water and 1/2 ebm at your baby's age. There is so little fat and so little vitamin content in rice milk - even enriched rice milk - that there would be essentially no difference. So, the question is whether or not you would be comfortable mixing water into your ebm for one bottle...

I hadn't really considered what Ruthla said about the soy being fine in small amounts. Duh! on my part for not thinking about that. I would think the soy formulas would be free of animal products, since the only animal product usually in formula is milk based and soy formulas have no dairy in them. Of course, I haven't checked the labels.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Okay, I just looked up the ingredients for Isomil soy formula and it had no animal products in it. Also, from what I googled, everything I read said soy formula was an acceptable vegan choice.








HTH!


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Thanks I read the label. I see Mono- and diglycerides which can be plant or animal derived.


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Ok, I did some research. There are no complete vegan soy infant formulas.

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0604b.htm
For those searching for an organic and vegan infant formula, unfortunately, at this time US and UK food industries do not offer any completely vegan soy-based formulas. However there are organic soy formulas, where the only non-vegan component is added vitamin D that is derived from an animal source (sheep's wool). For example, Baby's Only Organic soy formula is available from most supermarkets and health food stores, or can be ordered directly from www.babyorganic.com. If you live outside the US, you may be able to order it from www.organicbebe.com.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I would say it would be o.k. to do 1 bottle of 1/2 rice milk if absolutely needed. I would probably start solids though if baby was at an appropriate age (I have no idea how old your baby is). O.K. duh, 4 mos. :LOL Are you using slow flow nipples? Neither of my boys have taken more than 4 ozs at a time from a bottle. Evan is 6 mos now and sometimes doesn't even take that much, but he's not regularly bottle fed like your ds. If you're worried about fat in rice milk, you can add vegan rice protein powder and olive oil. We did this when we switched AJ to rice milk at 13 mos. We don't do it now, but we did at first since he wasn't a very good eater. If you're curious about anything in a formula, call the manufacturer and ask. I understand your problem as there are several ingredients that could be derived from different things and manufacturers are lax at times about telling which one. Anyways, I personally don't see anything wrong w/ adding the rice milk if needed as long as it's just like 2ozs a day. I'd say if for some reason you can't pump more and he starts taking more, you really need to start solids or use formula of some kind.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Yemaya1 said: Again, I dont want to put him exclusively on rice. I just want to know if onebottle of haf bm and rice will be a problem.
I wouldn't give a four month-old baby any rice "milk." Beverages made from rice are not milk or a milk alternative-- they are not nutritionally similar. A four month-old would not be getting adequate nutrition, and might have problems digesting the rice.

Quote:

Richelle said: I think mixing 1/2 rice milk and 1/2 ebm would be about the same as mixing 1/2 water and 1/2 ebm at your baby's age. There is so little fat and so little vitamin content in rice milk - even enriched rice milk - that there would be essentially no difference. So, the question is whether or not you would be comfortable mixing water into your ebm for one bottle...








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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Sorry Yemaya1! I saw those ingredients, but since what I googled said soy formula was an acceptable vegan alternative, I assumed it was all plant derived.







You know what they say about assuming....


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## MovingMomma (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:

I see Mono- and diglycerides which can be plant or animal derived.
So call up the company & find out if theirs are plant or animal derived. 1-800-227-5767

Rice milk is basically sugar water. It has very little fat & protein, which are both very important for your baby's development. Serving it with breastmilk doesn't increase the amount of nutrients, but effectively _decreases_ the amount of nutrients he is getting per volume of liquid.

At four months, your baby *needs* the complete nutrition of breastmilk and/or formula if necessary. Please do what is necessary to find a formula you are comfortable with if you cannot increase your supply or find donor breastmilk.


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80*
If you're curious about anything in a formula, call the manufacturer and ask. I understand your problem as there are several ingredients that could be derived from different things and manufacturers are lax at times about telling which one. Anyways, I personally don't see anything wrong w/ adding the rice milk if needed as long as it's just like 2ozs a day. I'd say if for some reason you can't pump more and he starts taking more, you really need to start solids or use formula of some kind.


Thanks for your help. I read something about the olive oil. He is using the Medela nipple and bottle. Maybe I need another?

Calling the manufacturer wont be of much help. There are no vegan formulas. Also, most non-vegan dont know what vegan really means.

I have more time to pump during the day. But doing it more than every 2 hours does not help. Because nothing comes out.


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgaydeski*
So call up the company & find out if theirs are plant or animal derived. 1-800-227-5767

Rice milk is basically sugar water. It has very little fat & protein, which are both very important for your baby's development. Serving it with breastmilk doesn't increase the amount of nutrients, but effectively _decreases_ the amount of nutrients he is getting per volume of liquid.

At four months, your baby *needs* the complete nutrition of breastmilk and/or formula if necessary. Please do what is necessary to find a formula you are comfortable with if you cannot increase your supply or find donor breastmilk.

Thanks, but again there are other ingredients in the formula that is not vegan. There is no vegan infant formula. I will have to increase my supply someway.

Thanks


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## MovingMomma (Apr 28, 2004)

I found this link: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/peo...astfeeding.php
Which says "Farley's Soya Formula" is suitable for vegans. It also says it is available in the UK, so not sure if you could find it in the USA or not. But it might be worth looking into. HTH!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

How about sending 3 5oz bottles and make the 4th bottle with however much ebm you're able to pump? He may not need a "full" bottle towards the end of the day when you're going to be home soon anyway. And maybe a small bottle of water in case he gets thirsty after all the milk is finished.

Another thought would be to only make 4oz bottles and see if he's satisfied with the smaller amount. He may be satisfied with less ebm if the nipple is slower flowing. Are you using latex or silicone nipples? Bottle nipples often stretch out a bit when they get old, and the hole may have gotten bigger over time. With latex nipples, you need to replace them when this happens. With silicone nipples, you can boil them for about 10 minutes to tighten them up.

Thanks for the information about the soy formula- I know that many are Kosher Parve (neither milk nor dairy) so I thought that meant no animal ingredients at all, but I also know that something is considered "nullified" if it's less than 1/60th of the product, so there might be trace amounts that a rabbi would consider insignificant to Kosher laws but would still be significant to you.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

NO rice milk!









Breast milk or formula only until age 1. Consider making your own formula from scratch if you need to, but no, rice milk is as one other poster put it, just like diluting breastmilk with water from a nutritional standpoint. 4 months is way too young to be getting anything other than breastmilk (or formula as a last resort).

Check out Sally Fallon's book "Nourishing Traditions" for homemade formula recipes.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

As far as I know, there are no vegan recipes for homemade formula and I would rather give my child rice milk than I would most of those homemade formulas! I'm definitely not against formula as both my children have had it, the baby still gets it, but I guess I don't see how 2 ozs of rice milk is going to hurt. Someone suggested a bottle of water instead, at least the rice milk would be somewhat filling and is less allergenic than soy.

I know they don't know what vegan means, but I would assume they would be able to tell if it was animal derived. I could be wrong as most times they can't even tell if it's dairy derived, let alone from an animal! Sheesh! We've always used the Playtex nurser system w/ the natual latch nipples.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm sorry, I responded to the OP without understanding that the key issue was ethical veganism. You can't be the first vegan in this position, I wonder whether it makes sense to X-post in Nutrition and Good Eating?

It really did help me to take the B complex supplement. It had the most impact of everything I tried. That and pumping on days off. I even used a manual pump on the Jewish Sabbath, getting up early to make sure I'd have a lot. Most people get the most yield early in the morning.

When you are at home and this is a possibility, try putting a warm compress or heating pad on the breast before pumping, this was also helpful for me.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Someone suggested a bottle of water instead, at least the rice milk would be somewhat filling and is less allergenic than soy.
Actually, the reason the water would be better than rice "milk" is because it is _not_ filling. The baby would presumably nurse more later. But filling up on something non-nutritive is worse.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

:


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

What about starting a little rice cereal? Yeah, I know it's not recommended, but in this case, it seems to beat the alternatives. Or even starting with other solids. I think LLL recommends veggies and fruits before grains.


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
I'm sorry, I responded to the OP without understanding that the key issue was ethical veganism.

Actually I am not an ethical vegan. I am a vegan for cultural and spirirual reasons. Milk has no way of being digested for some ethnicities. It really has nothing to do with animals.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. I am going to try to boost my supply. It really is just my left breast not pumping adequately. I will see an herbalist Saturday.


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## p1gg1e (Apr 3, 2004)

I know you want vegan but our milk is not tec. vegan . Would you consider local well treated goat milk LOL? just a long shot. Only if you really need to!








I am not against Vegans just thought this might help.









Elizabeth


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *p1gg1e*
I know you want vegan but our milk is not tec. vegan . Would you consider local well treated goat milk LOL? just a long shot. Only if you really need to!








I am not against Vegans just thought this might help.









Elizabeth

Breastmilk is technically vegan, if consumed by the infant of the species producing the milk. Human breastmilk is vegan for human babies, because it's not exploiting another animal.
(We had a long conversation about this a little while ago on the Nutrition board.) It also doesn't have any allergen proteins like cow or goat's milk might.

There is a mom on here (Shannon?) who makes homemade formula using goat's milk. I don't know whether that presents the same digestive issues as cow's milk though and maybe doesn't make sense for the OP.


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## darwinphish (Feb 13, 2005)

I would recommend the More Milk Plus in tincture form. Many Moms report it's more effective than the capsules. And, as a last resort, you could talk to your doctor about taking domperidone. It's a drug that has really helped to increase my supply dramatically.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yemaya1*
Milk has no way of being digested for some ethnicities. It really has nothing to do with animals.

I would like clarification on this.

From what I have understood in the past *ADULTS* of certain ethnicities are much more likely to become lactose intollerant as they age, so cannot drink animal milk after natural weaning age (2.5-7).

The likelihood of lactose intollerance is lowest in those of Western European ancestry and much higher in other populations (something like 90% of Africans are lactose intollerant as adults I think).

BUT, this would not apply to their children who were still of nursing age (and so have the ability to digest lactose).

Is there another issue that I am unaware of? I am really interested because I had never heard of an entire "ethnicity" being unalbe to digest animal based formulas (they are used in India, China, Africa, etc... the main issues being cost and water cleanliness, not inability to digetst cow or goats milk).


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