# Everyone says good job....



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I am soo much better about not using good job and all those other sort of indifferent rewards. the downside is I notice it soo much with other people but not just with thier kids...with my kids!! Everytime with other people my kids are inundated with "good job" "nice work" "good girl/boy"

I feel like I am fighting an uphill batttle. DD is always asking, "was that good?"

What can I do?


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

I am in the same boat as you.







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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

They probably just are being polite and haven't read UP or anything like that. Do they spend LOTS of time with your kids or only some? You can't really control what other people say (unless you mean, like, grandparents or something, in which case you can't control it but you might have some input).


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Oh I am sure they are being polite and trying to be kind but it is everyone...granparents, neighbors, strangers at the park, cashiers. EVERYONE! so is my little contribution of not saying "good job" going to make any difference or will my DD grow up thining...everyone think I am doing a great job...expcept my parents








I can't say anything to the grandparents on my DH's side. They already are not so fond of me...you know not circing my son, homeschooling, not letting my kids CIO...all sorts of fun stuff.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

I know what you mean.

For us, we've educated our families to refrain from empty praise. The get reminded sometimes, but for the most part they have caught on and can really see the merit in our position.

Our daughter is three and hears it every now and then from people who probably don't mean all that much to her. She sometimes ends up parroting them in kind of a mockin tone, which is comic relief to me, as well as kind of an embarassment. I think she heard Alfie Kohn say it very mockingly in a lecture once, and found it funny.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

When strangers say "Good job!" to Sprogly, he says, "Thanks." Very polite, my boy.







His DCP was good-jobbing him for a while (she changed when I talked to her about it, bless her), and for a while he was telling me Good Job after I'd used the toilet.


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## jackaroosmom (May 12, 2006)

I have never, ever said "good job" to my 2 year old, so I don't know where this is coming from-he keeps telling me "good job mama".

It's out there, but I think it's still better than "good boy" "good girl".

People seem to be on auto-pilot and want to say something nice to children for no reason and think they are doing something good. They have no idea how annoying it is for us!

Someone actually patted my son on the head in the store the other day!







:


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## mamamaris (Jul 12, 2006)

Promise I am not trying to sound snarky, but if it's just a well meaning person in a store- who cares. They tried to make an effort and alot of people don't know what else to say to kids. If its someone who consistently interacts with your child, I might mention your thoughts and why you don't encourage empty praise.

Your children will take their cues from you on what is important and what it means when they accomplish goals. Just keep doing what feels right to you and they will be fine!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

My question really is I guess, am I making a difference not saying it ?...b/c truthfully unless they (my son is still little) are ONLY with me they hear it constantly. So is my NOT saying it...making an impact?

I wouldn't care if it were JUST the store clerk or just the neighbors or just that onle lady at the park or JUSt grammy and Pa but it is everyone we come in contact with...besides me


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## mamamaris (Jul 12, 2006)

I really think it does make a difference when you are specific. I don't know your situation but I will guess that your child is with you more than anyone else. It will rub off and this way of thinking, imo, can take a long time to really pay off- if that makes sense. I feel like it is planting a seed, as with most thoughtful parenting and results don't always happen overnight. We parent for the long run, to help our children realize everything they can accomplish. This will not limit them to worrying what someone thinks when they are older but being confident with decisions/actions taken/insert whatever here-I am starting to go brain dead







.
You are doing a great job and definitely NOT saying it matters too!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

You are doing a great job










Hee hee..thanks!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I do think it makes a difference because you're his mom - you outrank them.







Seriously, I do think we have a lot of influence, especially on a subconscious level, so if you are not saying "good job" but rather focusing on the process, observing, sharing in his successes and failures, etc. I think that is huge.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

ITA...we're inundated with "good jobs" everywhere. I realize maybe I'm more aware of the term b/c I don't agree with its use to manipulate behavior....or feel it's very helpful providing information in general.

My four yr. old has recently been telling me, "Good hugging, mommy!" or "Good job with that!"









I realize that my dc are mostly good job-free, so that counts for something


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

While I agree with the general concepts presented by Kohn and others for not "good jobbing" your kids to death, I do not agree that our kid's psyches are so delicately balanced that hearing that occasionally that from other people, or even hearing you slip and say it once in a while, is going to send them tailspinning into ruination. Kids are tough little critters. They will thrive despite imperfection. I consider it a good thing people do the "wrong thing" by saying "Good job," instead of saying, "You stupid little twit. How could you be so dumb? You don't know how to spell antidisestablismentarianism yet? How will you ever go to college some day? You're going to wind up in jail when you're older, mark my words."


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## Epiphany (Oct 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson* 
While I agree with the general concepts presented by Kohn and others for not "good jobbing" your kids to death, I do not agree that our kid's psyches are so delicately balanced that hearing that occasionally that from other people, or even hearing you slip and say it once in a while, is going to send them tailspinning into ruination. Kids are tough little critters. They will thrive despite imperfection. I consider it a good thing people do the "wrong thing" by saying "Good job," instead of saying, "You stupid little twit. How could you be so dumb? You don't know how to spell antidisestablismentarianism yet? How will you ever go to college some day? You're going to wind up in jail when you're olderuch , mark my words."









: I also agree with the poster who said you "outrank" everyone else. Your child will take SO more from you than from them. As someone who struggles with not saying good job to my children I really needed to hear all of this too.







Its such an automatic thing for me..... I'm working on it though. hehe


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

I'm still really REALLY new to this GD thing and haven't quite gotten the intricacies to it. What is wrong with telling your child he/she did a good job? Do you not praise them at all when they do awesome things? I really am confused, honestly


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## babsbob (Nov 17, 2005)

I think I say "good job" sometimes without thinking - even though I don't like the phrase!!!!







: I really need to pay closer attention because I don't really notice when other people do it. I'm not sure what the DCP says to her but she is mostly GD, so I'm happy to have her and I know my mom doesn't say it because she is always reminding me to be more specific!
I haven't read Alfie Kohn yet so I'm not sure what his stance is on praise.
I still praise but I try to be specific and say things like "I really appreciate you being so patient" or I tell her she is such a good helper to help moma with the laundry, etc. I mean that is stuff everyone likes to hear, right?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I totally hear you- that and the constant barrage of good/bad. As in, I'm buying him a few books and the clerk will say, "oooh you must have been good." And now with Santa season, he's asked left and right about whether or not he's good. Good jobs, good boy, noisy toys and juice are everywhere. Drives me nuts, but unless it's my mom or dh or anyone else who is around him all the time, I let it go. I don't think it really effects him too much.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittn* 
I'm still really REALLY new to this GD thing and haven't quite gotten the intricacies to it. What is wrong with telling your child he/she did a good job? Do you not praise them at all when they do awesome things? I really am confused, honestly

This is an idea which is explored in detail in Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting." His point, to the best of my recollection, is that while attempting to shape a child's behavior through positive rewards (such as telling them they've done a good job when they do something right) is better than punishing them when they do something wrong, it's still just another form of behaviorist training -- that is, treating children as though they are dogs to be trained, rather than people in their own right. Among other negative aspects to this type of training, it teaches the child to look for external validation in order to determine whether or not they've done something well. It is far better for children (and people in general!) to know within themselves whether they've done something well or poorly. Internal motivation is also more likely than external motivation to lead to long-term success.

Of course Mr. Kohn recognizes that children will have achievements that are worthy of note, but he suggests that instead of a generic "good job" sort of sentiment, one might instead engage in a more real conversation about whatever they did -- such as asking the child questions about what they particularly liked about the artwork they proudly showed you, etc. I seem to recall that he also suggests saying things like, "I can see you're really proud of yourself for learning how to tie your shoes!"

Personally, I think Mr. Kohn takes things a bit too far. I grew up with parents who would have agreed with him about these things, and I found it very frustrating never to feel that my parents were proud of me for any of my achievements. I never had the faintest clue that my mother liked any of my artwork, for example, until I was in my 30's and she presented me with a gift of a framed and matted watercolor of my parents' house which done when I was perhaps 10 or 12. (A watercolor I today find embarrassing in its immaturity, though it is interesting to see how I perceived the house I grew up in.)

So anyway, while I agree with him that the use of mindless praise is detrimental to children's development, I do think it's worth occasionally demonstrating that one does actually recognize the value of their achievements -- and not merely in the "I can see you're really proud of that" kind of way, but in the "wow, that's a really cool 747 you built with your legos" way.

Oh, and I will say that growing up in such a household did teach me not to rely on external validation, so in the end it worked out as Mr. Kohn suggests that it would. I just hated it at the time and wished my parents would be more enthusiastic about the things I did well.

Anyway, for the original poster: I agree with what everyone else is saying, I don't think hearing "good job" from everyone else will undermine what you're trying to achieve at home. Your kids will sort it out.


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

Oh my, I must really be clueless....what's so bad about saying "good job"??







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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

This is one of my first visits to the GD forum, and I haven't done much reading on gentle discipline, though I aspire to parent using GD. The Alfie Kohn stuff is compelling; I think I've read some excerpts of his work, but not the book mentioned.

Anyway, it's funny to read how people have made an effort to avoid saying "good job" because years ago, I was impressed with my best friend's communication with her toddler (I was still in college/grad school at the time and parenthood was a long way off) when I heard her on the playground, quietly affirming "Good job" after Emma climbed something very competently or had some kind of significant physical achievement. When I heard her, I noted the difference in its understatement and its particular wording, and realized I had been reflexively saying, "Good girl!" every time Emma "completed" a venture or followed a request. Anyway, I heard the difference in my friend's responses, and I made a mental note that she was praising her child's behavior, not telling her SHE was good BECAUSE of some behavior. I thought that was cool.

Now I see the next level, heh.

I do say "good job" to my girl, but I usually elaborate. "You did such a good job letting me know how you feel," or "Good job putting all of those tools back in your box. We were a team, huh?" Or I'll ask her to come over and climb up into her chair (or ask her to push her sleeves up if she's going to start putting her hands into her cup or whatever) and respond with "Good job" or "Good job following directions" or "You did a good job listening to me" after she responds.

It's not always good job, but I don't consciously avoid it. Often, it's "I like the way you listened to me," or something like that. But the same kind of feedback (probably coercive) is there, right?

I've definitely told her she's a good girl, but I think it's always been in the context of responding directly to her and feeling overwhelming acceptance and joy in her. In _her_. Looking at her and not being able to respond in any way other than to proclaim her very good (like Creation, not her behavior or accomplishments.)

I don't know if that difference is enough, though, in terms of what it sets her up for.

Man, I can't remember what I clicked to get here--I must have just seen the "Good Job" bit in the list of forums & most recent threads, and had to click!


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## darwinphish (Feb 13, 2005)

What an unusual concept. What makes Kahn believe that internal and external motivation are mutually exclusive? I understand not using "good job" and the like to 'train' children or for every little thing, but what is wrong exactly with a toddler (or child) recieveing praise for something they are *already* clearly proud of? Case in point - DD pees in the toilet and has a big grin and says "pee pee in toy-et!" and I say "good job going pee pee!" and she grins some more. Is this behavioral training? Am I a mini-BF Skinner? I really don't think so. I think that kids have external and internal motivations simultaneously and if done well they reinforce one another.

I guess I need to read his book, but can someone quickly detail his reasoning beyond what's been written here - does he cite studies, have statistics, has any long term evaluation of his 'method' been done? It just seems completely at odds with my parenting instincts, which is I guess why I find it so difficult to understand.


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## Sillygoose (Oct 20, 2005)

That's what's so compelling about Kohn -- he has a whole lot of research to back him up. Now, psychology research is problematic, it's hard to do a really controlled, double-blind study of anything, but that's the nature of the beast.

Here's a link to one of his articles, to get you started on the topic. You can read it, see if it sits well with you, then read the book if you want to hear more about his theory.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

I don't do 'good job' for the basic reason that I don't believe it's my job to evaluate every move my daughter makes. No one does well in a climate of continual evaluation. It promotes anxiety, and reduces initiative. Where does the learning of childhood come from, if not from initiative? When we have visitors, though, oh my the good jobbing never stops. I actually had to bite my tongue (hard) when my daughter was told "Good chewing!" yesterday.


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sillygoose* 
I actually had to bite my tongue (hard) when my daughter was told "Good chewing!" yesterday.

That reminds me of a Mothering mag article about rewarding children for every little thing. I remember specifically that the author's child came home with an award certificate to praise her for successfully losing her tooth.









It can get a little ridiculous, but like PPs have said, I really think you, as a parent, provide the greatest influence for your child.


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nova22* 
That reminds me of a Mothering mag article about rewarding children for every little thing. I remember specifically that the author's child came home with an award certificate to praise her for successfully losing her tooth.









It can get a little ridiculous, but like PPs have said, I really think you, as a parent, provide the greatest influence for your child.


I guess it just seems like the only options are both so extreme. I can't imagine watching my child for good things to praise, because who the heck would want to feel like a science project?







:But when they are adults, their boss' will praise them or admonish them depending on the situation.
I guess I feel more than moderation is key. I don't think spanking is ever good in moderation. None is really the only option for me. I talk through almost everything with my kids, but I don't know how I feel about the issue of praise


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm finding that "unconditional parenting" is actually helping me to be more in tune with and attentive to my kids, rather than "parenting on autopilot." It takes a lot more energy to REALLY look at my child's picture and describe what I see, or ask her to tell me about it, than it does to just glance and enthusiastically make the judgement of "good job!"

Also, rather than telling her she's a "good helper" when she spontaneously mops the floor, I like encouraging her to tell me what gave her the idea to take on that project. Also, letting her know how it made things easier for me when she cleaned the floor, and how much more cheerful the house now is for Daddy to come home to (he doesn't like stumbling over stuff), really is more in line with my desire to help her think about how her actions affect others, rather than just getting her focused on herself. The flip side of this is that I'm learning to keep on showing her my unconditional love and affection when I ask her for help and she doesn't feel like it right then.

I want her to feel like I love her and am pleased with her no matter what, so her choice to help is truly a choice based on her intrinsic desire to do something.


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

my dh and i do agree that saying good girl or good boy isn't good b/c of course they are good! however, i see nothing wrong with telling my dd or ds good job at this or that, great listening!, you're such a great helper or thank you for this or that. i think that's great, not bad. that's just me though.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm probably going against the majority here but I don't think saying "good job" is a bad thing.

I can see the argument that saying "good job" isn't specific enough. That's something they covered in one of my child development courses. I think it's great to be specific and tell them exactly why or how they did a good job. Like "you did a really good job painting that picture and using so many different colors" And I agree that it's overkill to praise them for doing every little thing. But any kind of praise is better than no praise at all in my book.


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeThinkinMama* 
I'm probably going against the majority here but I don't think saying "good job" is a bad thing.

I can see the argument that saying "good job" isn't specific enough. That's something they covered in one of my child development courses. I think it's great to be specific and tell them exactly why or how they did a good job. Like "you did a really good job painting that picture and using so many different colors" And I agree that it's overkill to praise them for doing every little thing. But any kind of praise is better than no praise at all in my book.









:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

But better than praise is just taking genuine interest and encouraging them to talk about what they're doing -- and also talking about how their actions affect others. Kohn had a good point when he talked about the boy doing the art project. When he held it up his mom just "good jobbed" it, but Kohn asked him if HE liked it. The boy said not really, and then started talking about all the different ways he could have used the materials.

When we make a judgment, it kind of ends the conversation. At that point kids either have to agree with our judgment, or disagree and maybe even tear their work up, as my daughter has on a few occasions. Now I'm realizing that when she says she hates her picture, instead of saying, "No, it's pretty!" which just makes her more mad, I can encourage her to brainstorm about what she'd like to do differently.

To me this is a new and thrilling concept. I'm accustomed to depending on others to tell me if something I create is "good" or not. I think it's going to be very healing for me to stop relying on the judgements of others, and I'd like to give my kids a head start in this.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I like to ask my children what they think of their work. I may be able to assume certain things by their reaction but I don't really know what they are thinking so why jump to conclusions? If they are not as verbal yet, I make some assumptions about what they are thinking but I try not to. If dd4 shows me something, I will respond. "Yes, I see you have been working on xyz." "do you want to tell me about it?" "what do you think about xyz".


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimiharshe* 
my dh and i do agree that saying good girl or good boy isn't good b/c of course they are good! however, i see nothing wrong with telling my dd or ds good job at this or that, great listening!, you're such a great helper or thank you for this or that. i think that's great, not bad. that's just me though.

EXACTLY how I feel.







:


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Ditto some of the others. I don't get why good job would be a bad thing. It's simple for little ones to understand. And here, always said with a hug or claps.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I know this thread is largely a vent -- and not an effort to control people. However -- it has me thinking........Barring cruelty toward my children, I cannot imagine trying to interfere with the way that other people in their lives interact with them. If it bothers them to be told "good job," then I trust they will speak up or learn to cope. In my mind, its really a strange sort of contradiction to give up trying to over-control and micromanage our children for the sake of GD, but then become frustrated/controlling about the way other people relate to them. I understand that we try to control their environment instead of trying to control them.... but we really just can't control other people, kwim?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

mamaduck, I agree we shouldn't try to control every single interaction our kids have with others. At the same time, it's becoming increasingly important to me that my kids feel loved and accepted unconditionally, regardless of performance or acheivements. It's true that my love was just as unconditional when I was on the "good job" track -- but I'm no longer sure my dd's perceived it that way. I think there's a good chance they felt I was MORE pleased with them when they did a "good job" on something or were "good helpers."

By taking a responsive interest in what they're doing, encouraging them to share their ideas and the processes they go through to do what they do, describing what I see rather than judging, and pointing out how their various actions affect other people (rather than labelling them as "good" or "wrong" for doing them), I hope to raise children who feel they're already good regardless of their performance, and who are secure enough to take creative risks and also to reach out and love others.

While I don't believe in micromanaging, a big part of my decision to unschool is rooted in my desire to minimize the interactions my kids have with our whole competitive, rewards-oriented system. I think someone who wants to be more than a casual part of my children's lives should be receptive to hearing about our values.


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

i think saying good job for.... is great!


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

i'm not into saying good job... but my newly minted 2 year old has just started saying it to me







it really makes me giggle! i know he's been hearing it from his caregivers. but i think he's aware enough that people are different and that mama doesn't say "good job," but does give him lots of positive feedback and affection and respect and love in her own way!

i tend not to praise him for things that i think are routine and i expect of him. what i say instead is "thank you" - just what i say to my DH when he cooks dinner or empties the dishwasher or any other thing that's routine but appreciated.

if DS did something that really impressed me, i react accordingly! i do praise him when he does something new and exciting. sometimes i phrase it in terms of how he seems really happy to have done X, or sometimes i just tell him how i feel excited because i saw him do X. i try to be descriptive, and i try to ask him how he's feeling... though he's not very verbal yet...

editing to add... this is reminding me of an incident from when he was in a daycare center - they sent home one day a "certificate of achievement" for him. acheivement of *what* was unspecified... but for some reason my then 14 month old needed a piece of paper printed with an ink jet printer and pictures of winnie the pooh on it and signed by his care providers... they also put stickers on his daily report sheet when he went potty - though my little EC'd guy was too young to care about stickers at all!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I think for most people, telling a child "good job" simply comes from thier heart. Coming up with some long explaination comes from the head. If my kids did a good job, I tell them they did a good job. I always vote for honest heart felt feelings.
Granted, I don't run around "good job"ing everything they do, I want to be thoughtful about my interactions with them, but not to the degree that I have to overthink every thing I say to them.
If having people in their lives tell them "good job" is the biggest worry you have, I think you've got it pretty good.


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