# Massive meltdowns, whining and won't take "no" for an answer



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay - I suspect I know what's going on, roughly, but any insight would be much appreciated.

DD (just turned 6) has always been very volatile, and she's very sensitive (feelings are hurt easily, very aware of emotional undertones, etc.). However, as she's gotten older, she's gotten better and better at learning to manage herself. She'll leave a situation if she's starting to feel overwhelmed, for example. (We have 10 of the grandkids up to mom's on Christmas for a gift exchange. Most of the kid are in the 5-10 age range, and it can get a bit...rowdy. DD will usually quietly vanish into the den at some point and unwind in peace. She does a lot of things like that.) She spends at least an hour a day drawing and colouring, and that's almost like therapy for her...a good way to recharge.

So, overall, she's been much calmer and happier over the last couple of years. She's also been developing her understanding of other people, and getting a better grasp on the fact that other people have feelings, too. She's helpful and likes to pitch in around the house (she thinks helping me put laundry in the dryer is a treat, and almost begs to be allowed to unload the dishwasher). She's a wonderful little girl, and very sweet, in many ways. She does have some social challenges, because she likes one-on-one play and tends to feel rejected, which makes her hurt and angry, if another child gets involved. We're working on that - progress is slow, but visible.

However, recently things have been a bit...different. We're having at least 4 fairly major meltdowns a day. She cries, screams, freaks out physically. It's very draining, and I'm a little worried. This is new - only about the last...month, maybe? A few examples:

1) DD likes to go play with her friends in our complex. She knows the rules about checking in if she goes somewhere else, and she's fine out there. Her only other rule is that she has to come home without a fuss when we come to get her. This almost never happens now. She flips out every day, screaming at us, and whining "please, mommy - please, daddy" over and over and over when we've told her clearly that it's almost dinner time and she needs to come in now. We've actually refused to let her go play a couple of times, because the meltdowns are less intense if we do it that way. We generally give her some warning - either ahead of time "you can go out, but it will only be for a few minutes, because dinner's almost ready" or "oh, thanks for checking in, sweetie - ds1/dh/I will be coming to get you in a few minutes". It doesn't matter. This has become an almost daily occurrence, and the crying and screaming are really intense.

2) DD builds things. DS2 wrecks them. Yesterday, dd built a "house" with a fort building set. She and ds2 played in it for a few minutes, and both agreed that it was a "brilliant" fort. Then, they went to do some other things. A bit later, ds2 knocked the fort over. A couple sticks came loose, but it was mostly intact. DD immediately started screaming and crying and telling her brother she hates him. Then, she pulled a stick out of the roof, and started flailing it around. I was standing up and about to intervene (try to calm her down and stand the fort back up), when she connected with the roof of the fort, knocking all the sticks out. I said, "dd, stop" as I stepped towards her, and ds2 started to cry - she'd caught him in the face with the stick. I immediately got him out of the line of fire, and pulled him over to check on him, while also taking the stick from dd. She totally destroyed her fort, and told me she "had to" because her brother had already wrecked it. She was absolutely hysterical and it took about 20-30 minutes to get her calmed back down. She's done this a couple other times recently, too - completely destroyed something she was proud of, because ds2 did something to it (eg. a lego figure that he broke in half, and could easily be stuck back together again).

3) DD was out on the patio, drawing a picture yesterday. DS2 wanted to play with a squirter. So, I told him he could, as long as he kept the water away from dd, but that if he got her or her picture wet, the bucket would be dumped, and the squirter put away. I told dd to call me if he got her wet, and I'm come deal with it. Things were fine for about 10 minutes, then I heard dd screaming and crying hysterically (again). I jumped up, and she was hitting ds2, and trying to take the squirter from him, and calling him a "little brat". They were both in tears. I eventually got the squirter taken away, and brought them both inside (dd needed to change, because her dress was wet). She never said anything to me when he started squirting at her...just launched herself at him and went ballistic.

This stuff is going on multiple times a day. I'm not coping with it well, and I know that. The constant screaming, yelling, hitting and hysteria just sets my teeth on edge. So, I'm not sure of the best way to deal with the incidents.

But, more than that - I don't know what's causing this. She's never been one to lash out physically (occasionally threw something as a toddler, but that's about it). She hasn't freaked out like this since she was really, really, really little. I'm not sure she's every had so many meltdowns per day.

I'm about 99% sure that this is related to the baby on the way. She remembers my last c-section, and how bad my recovery was. She also remembers - obviously - that I didn't come home with a baby. I'm sure she's at least a little worried that this is going to happen again. This is probably all contributing in some way, but I can't get a handle on what's going in that brain of hers. Any thoughts??

I also know that ds2 is very, very, very frustrating to deal with. He randomly hits people (not angry - he thinks it's funny sometimes, and sometimes, he's just trying to interact), breaks things, etc. He doesn't listen well at all. He gets to everybody in the house sometimes, but dd's reactions have become _so_ extreme.

Sorry - this ended up being longer than I expected...

ETA: I focused on the meltdowns, but also mentioned the whining and refusal to take "no" for an answer in my title. These are both really bad, too. One quick example - we were going to an Ecology Center program (about flowers) on Monday. The kids had been playing and having fun, and were looking forward to leaving. I was packing my bag, and had told dd we'd be getting ready to go in a minute. She came up to me, and asked if I could get down her crayons, so she could colour in a stained-glass bird. I told her she couldn't do that right now, because she needed to get dressed, and we'd be leaving in just a few minutes. So..."but, mommy, pleeaaase - just one". No - we're leaving in a minute. I don't have time to get the crayons, and you don't have time to colour right now. You can do one as soon as we get home. "But, mommy...pleeeeeasssse...pleeeaaaseee, mommy". No - we don't have time right now. We need to go. She just would _not_ accept that she could colour right then, and was still screaming about her bird on the way up the stairs. I asked her if she wanted to do the Ecology Centre program, and she said "yes", and then immediately started in about "pleeeeaaase" couldn't she just colour one bird, etc. etc. etc. Yet _another_ massive meltdown, and she was still upset when we got in the car about 10-15 minutes later (we were late - surprise, surprise). She's wearing me out..


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

This may or may not help but my DD was EXACTLY like that when shes turned 6 everything was this huge battle and she melted down over the smallest things even things that seemed to go her way. Mommy can I watch this movie friday its at 8pm? Me well Friday not a school night so I don't see why not.. DD BUT MOMMY I could do it on a school night I'd GEt UP ITS NOT FAIR!!







:







She became super picky on food how her clothes fit suddenly hated her own voice even







We kinda just delt sometimes really having to say too bad when she got totally over board... then she jsut stopped I think her body kinda greew into what ever was battling with her inside the whinning stopped the extreme pickiness stopped the mekting down because every tiny detain didn't go ehr way stopped. We did nothing diffrently it just happened less and less. I mean she is still 6 and still has 6 year old moments but its diffrent its what you expect.

Deanna


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
This may or may not help but my DD was EXACTLY like that when shes turned 6 everything was this huge battle and she melted down over the smallest things even things that seemed to go her way.

We just had this. DH took the kids to the aquarium this morning (new baby beluga whale). DD was totally excited about it, and really wanted to go. He got them up a little early, because we're members and this was "Super Saturday" when members can get in before the aquarium opens. DD was fine with that, and had a good time. I went and picked them up. DD was being crazy about not being able to go to the playground by the bus station, and asked me if she could go (dh had already said no - nowhere to park the van, for one thing). So, she flipped out. I said something to dh about her taking a nap and she flipped again. Then, she started screaming about how if we "didn't have a stupid aquarium in Vancouver", she could have played with her friends. Ugh.

Quote:

Mommy can I watch this movie friday its at 8pm? Me well Friday not a school night so I don't see why not.. DD BUT MOMMY I could do it on a school night I'd GEt UP ITS NOT FAIR!!







:







She became super picky on food how her clothes fit suddenly hated her own voice even







We kinda just delt sometimes really having to say too bad when she got totally over board... then she jsut stopped I think her body kinda greew into what ever was battling with her inside the whinning stopped the extreme pickiness stopped the mekting down because every tiny detain didn't go ehr way stopped. We did nothing diffrently it just happened less and less. I mean she is still 6 and still has 6 year old moments but its diffrent its what you expect.

Deanna
I'll keep that in mind. She's definitely...off. I've found myself thinking, daily, for about a month (more or less the same time period) that she seems to be coming down with something. We did all have a stomach bug a few weeks ago, but it was very brief, and she's been well over it for at least two weeks.

Hopefully, this will ease up. DD and ds2 are both pretty...intense kids, in totally different ways, and they're wearing me out.

DS1 was so physically active, and mentally engaged all the time, that I never fully realized how laidback his _temperament_ really was (is).


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## QDB (Aug 14, 2003)

My ds is the same age as your dd and we are dealing with this as well. I imagine you are right in her worry about you and the baby too.

I just came across yet another developmental list of the 6 year old and two things resonated with me.

one was - wants it all has difficulty with decisions - and the other was - more independent but less secure.

My son cannot decide on anything - even food which is often too cute to eat! Their seems to be regret over things we have done after the fact regardless of whether he enjoyed them or not.

Your daughter's comment about the "stupid aquarium" and playing with her friends sounds in a similar vein to a lot of sentiments that I have been hearing lately too.

So, I hear ya! It might be normal but it sure is exhausting - and my son is an intense child as well. I just try to focus on the positive things he does and make sure he eats well and often. But I too worry and feel like something is wrong half the time. Plus he is getting his molars and he has never been a happy teether...I know there is a happy little boy in there but a lot of the time I feel like he is in real conflict with himself.

I hope it eases up in a few months so I can recharge before the challenges of 7 rear their ugly heads.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Thank you. It's nice to hear about other kids doing the same thing. I _know_ that my fatigue and grumpiness this pregnancy has had a negative effect on the kids, and I'm sure that dd, at least, has some anxiety/trepidation about me going back into the hospital again. But, she doesn't know how to verbalize it, and may not even consciously realize that she's scared. That makes it really hard to find a way to deal with that aspect of things, yk?

OTOH, it does sound like this isn't _all_ about the baby or the fact that I'm too tired to do very much. Some of it is probably just a normal developmental thing, and that helps.

I do hope she outgrows it fairly soon. She and ds2 are each enough to wear me out right now, and the two of them combined is just...wow...


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

DD1 went through this, and at 7, it all magically disappeared. She is my most challenging child temperamentally, and in a way, she was this way from the second she was born. BUT- it was extremely intense between 6 and 7 (like the time I was walking in 40 degree weather with her in a headlock so she could not hit me and she was barefooted







: ) It's all over; she's sweet and helpful and all the other positive adjectives that easily describe her with only a sprinkling of the more difficult things that add some spice to our lives.

I'm sure your pregnancy is making it more difficult, but it also sounds developmentally familiar.


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

Your daughter sounds exactly like mine as a younger child... I wonder if I can remember this thread for when she turns 6!








Wishing you peace & joy.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

another mama going thru this and saying - yes age appropriate.

one of the other things - if you havent already seen it - is the negative self talk. i am ugly or i am dumb or the opposite. i am smart, or i am beautiful - or even i wish i could die. i should die.

all of this age appropriate. intense, intense, intense. and intense kids getting intense really makes it hard on the parents. in your case it is doubly intense.

i have been sorta kinda in the same place as you. saying your preggo is 99% reason (my reason was different) and therefore in a kinda way saying you are responsible (dont know if you did this or not, but i remember i did it). when really it probably is 50/50.

the key here is empathy, empathy, empathy. they are not looking for fixes. they are not looking for 'no you are not that way'. they want companionship in their anger, or frustration, or sadness. they want to know they are not alone at the place they are at - and that they are loved no matter what. this is the time i recognise that i need to take a step back from me. they need that extra support. sometimes in quietness.

one of the thing that stands out at me is the water incident. avoidance in whatever manner you could manage it really is the key. i know its hard to do.

you know storm bride it really amazes me to see the level of anger my dd goes thru at her worst moments. and yes she has never been like this. she is absolutely red and trembling. sometimes its coz i am not letting her do what she wants.

right now our life is all about negotiations. constant negotiation. and btw playing with my friends was my life. i would also try and find a compromise. i could totally see my dd doing the same thing if we lived in a complex. i did and i hated coming home - to the drugery. even at 10. instead she and i go to the park. and everytime going home is up for negotiation. that works well for us. lots of warning and finally ok time to go. takes a lot of effort (being a single mom in a sense helps). somedays i tell her hey i know you want to be here longer but i am really tired and need some rest at home.

hang in there. there are some major stuff going on with our children.

at this age too teh recharging is really no. 1 for your dd.

you know in a sense the baby might be hard for her. in another way the baby might be really, really good for her. i see my dd and watch how she tenderly cares for the toddlers following her around the park. after guiding her some i see how she really plays at their level and doesnt do her own play which could be dangerous for the toddler.

so while they are soo hormonal, in another way i see sooo much sweetness and concern that have magnified these last few months. also her skill of understanding my situation and saying its ok if we have to do my thing instead of hers. blows my mind.

*sigh* i have one of those intense high needs child. one of the interesting things i discovered about me is the thought, the idea that at some point parenting gets easier. dont ask me what 'easier' meant. and i find it never is going to be. yet its a bitter sweet thing. somethings drive me up the wall and somethings move me soo profoundly and deeply that it is beyond tears. the insights and realisations she has. it just blows my mind that a 6 year old is even aware of all these things. it moves me soo deeply to see how much she really cares about me by sometimes encouraging me to do my thing instead of doing her thing which i know she really wants to do.

sorry this has turned into a tome.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
another mama going thru this and saying - yes age appropriate.

one of the other things - if you havent already seen it - is the negative self talk. i am ugly or i am dumb or the opposite. i am smart, or i am beautiful - or even i wish i could die. i should die.

Yes - this, too! It's so hard to deal with...both dh and I are having difficultly coping with it.

Quote:

i have been sorta kinda in the same place as you. saying your preggo is 99% reason (my reason was different) and therefore in a kinda way saying you are responsible (dont know if you did this or not, but i remember i did it). when really it probably is 50/50.
This does help. I've been _so_ out of it that it's been really easy to blame myself for the way she's acting. Things are stressful around here, and I'm sure she does have some anxiety, but I don't think that's _all_ of what's going on, yk?

Quote:

the key here is empathy, empathy, empathy. they are not looking for fixes. they are not looking for 'no you are not that way'. they want companionship in their anger, or frustration, or sadness. they want to know they are not alone at the place they are at - and that they are loved no matter what. this is the time i recognise that i need to take a step back from me. they need that extra support. sometimes in quietness.
I try to do this. DS2 is a serious complication right now. He's going to preschool in September, so if she's still in this phase, that will probably help a little. They're very much in conflict of late.

Quote:

one of the thing that stands out at me is the water incident. avoidance in whatever manner you could manage it really is the key. i know its hard to do.
Yeah - this stuff is hard. She really wanted to draw outside, and ds2 really wanted to squirt water, and we don't _have_ anywhere for them to do that, except the patio. Unfortunately, that one blew up really badly. DS2 _really_ likes to push boundaries...over...

Quote:

you know storm bride it really amazes me to see the level of anger my dd goes thru at her worst moments. and yes she has never been like this. she is absolutely red and trembling. sometimes its coz i am not letting her do what she wants.
Yes - she's _so_ angry!

Quote:

right now our life is all about negotiations. constant negotiation. and btw playing with my friends was my life. i would also try and find a compromise. i could totally see my dd doing the same thing if we lived in a complex. i did and i hated coming home - to the drugery. even at 10. instead she and i go to the park. and everytime going home is up for negotiation. that works well for us. lots of warning and finally ok time to go. takes a lot of effort (being a single mom in a sense helps). somedays i tell her hey i know you want to be here longer but i am really tired and need some rest at home.
This is where my pregnancy is causing problems. When I do take them out, I can only last so long, and when I need to go home, I need to go home. I also have problems with bladder numbness, which means that I don't know that I need to pee, until I _really, really, really_ need to pee. I'm trying to start work on "time to go home" ahead of time, but it doesn't always work very well.

Quote:

at this age too the recharging is really no. 1 for your dd.
I definitely need to work harder at keeping ds2 out of her hair. One of the problems is that she always wants to play with her friends when ds2 is napping, which is also the best time for uninterrupted drawing/colouring - and drawing is her best way to recharge.

Quote:

you know in a sense the baby might be hard for her. in another way the baby might be really, really good for her. i see my dd and watch how she tenderly cares for the toddlers following her around the park.
DD adores babies. I think the baby will be really good for her, in many ways. It's the pregnancy and the anxiety about me that isn't good for her at all. I'm not even sure she's fully aware that she's worried, but I'm sure she is.

Quote:

*sigh* i have one of those intense high needs child. one of the interesting things i discovered about me is the thought, the idea that at some point parenting gets easier. dont ask me what 'easier' meant.
I kind of suckered myself. It _did_ get easier when she was about 3.5 - she started learning to manage her own intensity better, and was just generally _so_ sweet. This latest go around really took me by surprise.

Quote:

...somethings move me soo profoundly and deeply that it is beyond tears. the insights and realisations she has. it just blows my mind that a 6 year old is even aware of all these things.








:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
DD1 went through this, and at 7, it all magically disappeared.

Seven is a long way off (she turned 6 at the beginning of May), but this is reassuring. Even if it goes on almost the whole year, it sounds likely that she _will_ outgrow it. We just need to concentrate on as much empathy as we can muster (not a lot, sometimes).

Quote:

BUT- it was extremely intense between 6 and 7 (like the time I was walking in 40 degree weather with her in a headlock so she could not hit me and she was barefooted







: )
Honestly, that sounds more like me trying to cope with ds2's stuff than dd's, but I know the feeling...and how.

I'm not taking them out again until after the baby arrives, except with the help of dh and/or ds1. I just can't keep up with ds2, and dd is _so_ draining. Fortunately, ds1 is home full-time, except for writing 3 more exams. It helps.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

SB, I just found this thread while looking for ways to deal with my own 6 y/o dd. It sounds as though we have the same exact kid. Really. And her birthday is at the very end of March so they are even very close in age.

How are things going?

My little girl is driving me out.of.my.freaking.mind. Oh dear God there are some days where I have to close all the windows in my house because of her ridiculous screaming and temper tantrums (I really thought that we were long done with those







), I am afraid the neighbors are going to think I am beating her or something. She is also a very very spirited 6 y/o.

Take a few minutes ago for example. Out of nowhere she goes from 0 to pissed off and sullen and locks herself in my bedroom. I tried talking to her about what was making her so upset, she didn't want to look at me or talk to me and hid in the closet for about 15 minutes. Then she relegated herself to her bedroom and lazily kicked the door while moaning for another 15 minutes. Then she ignored me for a little while longer and now she is chirpy and happy, trying to wash dishes







.

She hates everything, can't handle no for an answer, is atrocious to her little sister, but at the same time can have a real zest for life, can be amazing helpful and cooperative, and very loving and playful with her sister.

4 was kind of like this too, but I know that it had a lot to do with the fact that she was not an only child anymore. I have a very real dread of the teen years







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Boudicca~* 
SB, I just found this thread while looking for ways to deal with my own 6 y/o dd. It sounds as though we have the same exact kid. Really. And her birthday is at the very end of March so they are even very close in age.

Very close, for sure. It definitely seems to be an age thing for some kids.

Quote:

How are things going?
umm....that's a good question. She did tell my mom at few days ago that she's worried about the baby and she seems to have settled down _a little_ since then. It's hard to say for sure, because she (and ds2 and I) has an awful cold. She may just be too drained of energy to freak out...

Quote:

My little girl is driving me out.of.my.freaking.mind. Oh dear God there are some days where I have to close all the windows in my house because of her ridiculous screaming and temper tantrums (I really thought that we were long done with those








), I am afraid the neighbors are going to think I am beating her or something. She is also a very very spirited 6 y/o.
Now, _that_ rings a bell! I've wondered what our neighbours are thinking a few times.

Quote:

Take a few minutes ago for example. Out of nowhere she goes from 0 to pissed off and sullen and locks herself in my bedroom. I tried talking to her about what was making her so upset, she didn't want to look at me or talk to me and hid in the closet for about 15 minutes. Then she relegated herself to her bedroom and lazily kicked the door while moaning for another 15 minutes. Then she ignored me for a little while longer and now she is chirpy and happy, trying to wash dishes







.

She hates everything, can't handle no for an answer, is atrocious to her little sister, but at the same time can have a real zest for life, can be amazing helpful and cooperative, and very loving and playful with her sister.
That definitely sounds like dd - very much like dd. She helped me get things for dinner tonight, sweet as can be. Then, at dinner time, she was going absolutely ballistic, because her bouncy ball was stuck in the sink drain, and she couldn't get it out. DH rescued it before he sat down, and she hugged it, and was super happy - and now, she's forgotten it ever existed.

Quote:

4 was kind of like this too, but I know that it had a lot to do with the fact that she was not an only child anymore. I have a very real dread of the teen years







:
No kidding. So far, I'm getting off easy with ds1. DD doesn't have the same easy-going temperament, though. I can't quite imagine what it will be like with hormonal upheaval thrown into the mix.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

If it helps I went through a similar stage at age 5 when my mom was expecting my sister. We had lost my brother, a full-term stillbirth, the year before (I remember a lot - I had been really excited to have a brother, was pretty invested in the pregnancy and was almost as devastated as my parents). I was such a mess she ended up taking me to a psychiatrist and I did almost a year of therapy. I was always a high-energy spirited kid, but it wasn't normal for me to be so angry and throw tantrums.

After my sister arrived safely and everyone was so happy with the new baby I went back to normal and loved my new sister. I hope the time you will have to deal with her melting down so frequently while recovering from your c-sec and caring for Jenna will be short!! Let us know how it goes.


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## G-love (Oct 8, 2002)

I am having similar challenges with my 4 year old DD. She has so much anger. Today I went back on my idea of getting ice cream at the beach( Big Mistake, I know, but it was so hot and a huge line and I just couldn't take it, and promised ice cream when we got home), and she literally cried, screamed, howled for 2 hours. She also flips out whenever her 2 year old sister does anything, however mild (e.g. drawing on a corner of a picture DD1 abandoned hours earlier). Then the toddler starts screaming in fear because her big sister is screaming, which makes DD1 even madder and scream even louder. I can honestly say I have NO idea what to do!
SO just wanted to share that, and I'm not pregnant or anything. Don't blame yourself. Sometimes things are just crazy. But it's good to hear that at least they cycle through these stages.


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