# Preparing to be around a Dingo/pitbull



## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

My brother has a well behaved dingo/pitbull female. However she did give a warning snap when my two year old pestered her at Thanksgiving, not an actual bite, but near.

We are planning a vacation to visit and hang around in the house in February, and want to start guiding our son towards how to be around dogs. He is 2.5 yr old. Any great ideas?

We knew this may happen, and it put us on gaurd full time at Thanksgiving, and we want to feel more comfortable. My brother is really stubborn about not putting the dog out. We in turn like to visit so want to make it work if we can.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

this is a great opportunity for you to teach your child about boundaries and how to treat animals. it doesn't matter what breed of dog it is - children should not be allowed to "pester" them. there are large numbers of Golden Retrievers who bite children each year because parents say "oh, those dogs are great with kids" without acknowledging that it's still a dog. even the most friendly of dogs have breaking points.

a few rules -

child and dog are never alone together. never, ever, no exceptions

if the dog moves away from the child, let it. do not let the child follow it, all creatures need their space and time alone

model the behavior you want to see - pet the dog nicely, calmly, and not making alot of sudden or hard movements

teach your child it's not ok to give the dog hugs - think about this from the dog's point of view - they are suddently in the grip of someone who's making them nervous. it's not fair to expect them to stand still and not react. you wouldn't never teach your child to accept all hugs, would you?

teach your child that the dog's toys belong to her, and that her toys and food are not to be played with.

don't let the child chase the dog - even in play. it's not fun play if only the child is having the fun.
you should not be on guard about the dog - you should be on guard about what your child may provoke the dog to do. especially a dog that is not used to being around little ones.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

There is nothing to do to prep your child. You keep them safe by NEVER (never, never, never) being anywhere but RIGHT THERE when the dog is there (and that goes for any dog) Right there. Holding your child or close enough to be doing so.

-Angela


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
There is nothing to do to prep your child. You keep them safe by NEVER (never, never, never) being anywhere but RIGHT THERE when the dog is there (and that goes for any dog) Right there. Holding your child or close enough to be doing so.

-Angela

This is VERY good advice. I am so sorry you have to be around that dog. I have REALLY big issues with my kids around dogs, any dogs, whom I don't know and especially those who are aggressive. My belief is your child is so young and yes you can teach them to respect dogs to an extent, but come one, the child is just that, a child, and they get excited around dogs and then accidents happen. Can you approach your brother nicely and explain to him WHY you want the dog to be in a safe distance from the child? We have two dogs, both pugs, and whenever someone comes over I immediately put them downstairs (with food and water!) and they stay there until company is gone. I wish you the best.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Honestly, I would ask my brother if the dog could be confined to another room that was separate from my child while we were there. There's no way I would be able to enjoy myself if I'm on full alert watching the dog. Two year olds obviously don't know how to act around a dog so I would be more comfortable if the dog was removed for the hour or whatever that I'm around.

FWIW I would NEVER let my child around a dog that nipped at him. We're around dogs all the time and I've never had it happen. Lots of dogs can tolerate kids...some can't.


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## Lemon Juice (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
this is a great opportunity for you to teach your child about boundaries and how to treat animals. it doesn't matter what breed of dog it is - children should not be allowed to "pester" them. there are large numbers of Golden Retrievers who bite children each year because parents say "oh, those dogs are great with kids" without acknowledging that it's still a dog. even the most friendly of dogs have breaking points.

a few rules -

child and dog are never alone together. never, ever, no exceptions

if the dog moves away from the child, let it. do not let the child follow it, all creatures need their space and time alone

model the behavior you want to see - pet the dog nicely, calmly, and not making alot of sudden or hard movements

teach your child it's not ok to give the dog hugs - think about this from the dog's point of view - they are suddently in the grip of someone who's making them nervous. it's not fair to expect them to stand still and not react. you wouldn't never teach your child to accept all hugs, would you?

teach your child that the dog's toys belong to her, and that her toys and food are not to be played with.

don't let the child chase the dog - even in play. it's not fun play if only the child is having the fun.
you should not be on guard about the dog - you should be on guard about what your child may provoke the dog to do. especially a dog that is not used to being around little ones.

I think it's great to teach children to respect animals...but we are talking about a 2 yr old! That is not an age where they will learn all of these "rules" around animals. It's just not going to happen at this age. You can model the behavior and talk to them about it but I would not expect a 2 yr old to be able to take that info and process it and actually be able to follow these rules. Especially not enough to be able to relax and let my gaurd down around this animal with my child in the same house.

OP, I would never let my children be near a dog that has nipped. No way. I do understand that this dog is not used to being around children and that is why they are acting this way...but this is a very young child and any dog should be removed from the situation if they act this way around children. I am in shock that your brother has such little respect for human life, really! Why can't he put the dog elsewhere for the visit? I don't think that is much to ask if you are not there all.the.time. But if he's not willing to bend and you want to be there you might have to realize that you are just going to have be on gaurd full time and not able to relax like you want, to keep them safe from one another.

I have a BIL who has a dog who is well behaved and she is not used to children. She growls and is very unfriendly to all humans, other then him and his gf (but well behaved and calm and keeps to herself). I have 4 children who have an extremely gentle and kind standard poodle and it is hard for them to realize that not all dogs are this mellow. While we do teach them to respect animals and boundaries, etc just playing or being around and being a different person is enough to set off dogs. Like a PP said, some can tolerate kids and some can not. Sounds like your brother's dog can not..and that warning snap is all I would need to keep my children far away from that animal.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

I think the first big one is to never let your kid pester an animal, any animal, for any reason...I don't care how old they are, you can physically stop him from doing so every single time it happens.

second would go along with that, never ever let him be alone with a dog.

third, I'd ask for the dog to be put away for the time you are there...we put our cats away for company if they ask or if we already know they don't like cats... It just seems like common courtesy.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

I agree that modeling how to behave around dogs and other animals is important for children. However, I wouldn't have my two-year-old around a pitbull or pitbull mix for long and especially not one who has snapped at him already. (I have a 2 yo who loves dogs and can be a little too aggressive with them.) All dogs can bite, but certain breeds and certain dogs are more aggressive/dangerous than others. I'd ask my brother to keep the dog separate from my toddler for most of the day.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

I have chosen not to go to homes where I have concerns about the pets there. I would be on pins and needles the entire time and neither DD, the host, nor I would have an enjoyable visit. Especially with the prior snap.

I'm curious about your brother's stubborn attitude on this issue. He seems to be putting the dog above you and your son.


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

:
If my brother couldn't put his dog outside or in another room I would not visit. Good Luck.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes I am curious about the brother too. A child comes before a dog ANY day in my book.....


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lemon Juice* 
I think it's great to teach children to respect animals...but we are talking about a 2 yr old! That is not an age where they will learn all of these "rules" around animals. It's just not going to happen at this age. You can model the behavior and talk to them about it but I would not expect a 2 yr old to be able to take that info and process it and actually be able to follow these rules. Especially not enough to be able to relax and let my gaurd down around this animal with my child in the same house.

i disagree. a 2.5 year old can absolutely follow simple rules. the simplest rule for the child being "leave the dog alone" can be understood by a child that age.

however, i clearly stated that the rules were for mom - as in, "teach your child..." and "do not let your child..." all of them still apply and make sense.

and, i know it may shock lots of you - but dog owners care about their pets just like you care about your kids. i know that everyone will make the arguement how you can't love a pet like you do a child, but for some people, they really do. so, asking him to put the dog out of it's home b/c you can't control a child is probably what's ridiculous in his eyes.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
There is nothing to do to prep your child. You keep them safe by NEVER (never, never, never) being anywhere but RIGHT THERE when the dog is there (and that goes for any dog) Right there. Holding your child or close enough to be doing so.

-Angela

I COMPLETELY agree. I have two pit bulls - breed isn't the issue - but I would be more hesitant around a dingo x with anything -- dingos are not domestic dogs and like wolf hybrids, don't behave the same way.

BUT that's neither here nor there - the dog has already shown aggressive tendencies and it only takes ONE split second for a dog to do serious injury to a child, especially one at face-level. You brother is being extremely unreasonable. I would go so far as to not have my child in the same room as that dog at all, particularly in the dog's own home.

My dogs love children and are careful but I never have them around other people's strange children - out of respect I put them in their crates until company leaves. Every safety precaution needs to be taken with children and animals but a dog that snaps at humans is a RED flag and a liability. No human aggression in this house.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i disagree. a 2.5 year old can absolutely follow simple rules. the simplest rule for the child being "leave the dog alone" can be understood by a child that age.

Do you have a 2.5 year old? I'd like to meet one who could actually follow those rules, for an extended period of time, with a "tempting" dog nearby to "play" with and a new environment to explore.

Quote:

however, i clearly stated that the rules were for mom - as in, "teach your child..." and "do not let your child..." all of them still apply and make sense.
Regardless, the dog is not used to children. Even with Mom's constant vigilance, something could set the dog off. A child walking too near it while eating. A child carrying food past it which the dog suddenly decides HE wants. A child running through the house. Crying. Whining. Etc. The child is an intruder in the dog's territory, and I'd wager the dog knows it.

Quote:

and, i know it may shock lots of you - but dog owners care about their pets just like you care about your kids.
CARE about? No. I cherish, adore, am in love with *and would die for my children.* I don't just "care" for them as some "care" for their pets.

Quote:

so, asking him to put the dog out of it's home b/c you can't control a child is probably what's ridiculous in his eyes.
Asking him to put the dog elsewhere - a dog that has already shown that it cannot control itself - sounds ridiculous?

Whether he loves his dog or only cares for it, a RESPONSIBLE pet owner would see to it that an animal that has already shown aggression towards another person (esp a child!) is not even _tempted_ to show more aggression when that same person comes by again. Why risk it?

Why put the burden on the child rather than the dog? If the dog cannot control itself, the child could have everything to lose.

Quote:

b/c you can't control a child is probably what's ridiculous in his eyes
Your last statement sounds as though you'd say: "Well, the kiddo was petting the dog the wrong way and then stepped on the dog's tail, so he deserved to be bit. He wasn't controlling himself around the nervous pet."


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## Mama2Rio (Oct 25, 2008)

will you be staying at your brothers house or just visiting while you're in the area? if you will be there for a few hours each day, can he muzzle the dog? this is a humane way to handle the situation.

we have a dog that came from an abused home and can become scared-agressive around strangers (usually men). durring the time he's lived with us, he is now very protectve, especially of the baby. if we have a visitor for a few hours that the dogs not know, we muzzle him. he's only 15 lbs, but i know he might nip, and don't want to risk it.

i know a 2 yr old is likely to run around, and that can also upset a dog. you have to use causion around any dog, i would ask for the dog to be muzzled for saftey. ui would also teach the child how to behave around animals, not to run around the house and to leave the dog alone.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Do you have a 2.5 year old? I'd like to meet one who could actually follow those rules, for an extended period of time, with a "tempting" dog nearby to "play" with and a new environment to explore.

you can clearly see by my sig that i don't have children, thanks for being so supportive and pointing it out.

however, i will stand by my statement. a 2.5 year old child can follow the rule - "leave the dog alone" - especially if mom is paying attention. dogs and children can live together quite well, but it takes training on both sides - dog and child - to acheive this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Regardless, the dog is not used to children. Even with Mom's constant vigilance, something could set the dog off. A child walking too near it while eating. A child carrying food past it which the dog suddenly decides HE wants. A child running through the house. Crying. Whining. Etc. The child is an intruder in the dog's territory, and I'd wager the dog knows it.

which is why it's even more important for mom and child to know the environment and act accordingly. she has been told by brother he won't contain the dog. she has told us that she doesn't control her child and lets the child pester the dog to the point that it snapped. she needs to make a decision that is best for her child - even when other people in the world don't change their lives to revolve around him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

CARE about? No. I cherish, adore, am in love with *and would die for my children.* I don't just "care" for them as some "care" for their pets.


there are many people who feel that way about their pets. you don't, fine, but, don't be so dismissive of their feelings just because you don't share them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Asking him to put the dog elsewhere - a dog that has already shown that it cannot control itself - sounds ridiculous?

Whether he loves his dog or only cares for it, a RESPONSIBLE pet owner would see to it that an animal that has already shown aggression towards another person (esp a child!) is not even _tempted_ to show more aggression when that same person comes by again. Why risk it?


you are trying to put words in my mouth. i said that in the brother's eyes the request to contain the dog is probably ridiculous.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Why put the burden on the child rather than the dog? If the dog cannot control itself, the child could have everything to lose.


based on the information we have, the dog is well behaved and was controlling itself just fine until the child pestered it. the dog also has everything to lose - as in, if it actually bit, it would have been put down.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Your last statement sounds as though you'd say: "Well, the kiddo was petting the dog the wrong way and then stepped on the dog's tail, so he deserved to be bit. He wasn't controlling himself around the nervous pet."

you are again trying to put words in my mouth. i'm trying to get folks to see this situation from the dog owner's point of view - a point of view you are loud and clear about not sharing. however, it doesn't make it invalid.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I can see both sides, I really can, but I have a 2.5 year old girl and I am VERY vigilant about her being careful around animals (we live on a farm with a wide variety of animals) and I DO have respect for dogs, but kids are going to kids, even if mom is RIGHT there with her hands on the child, who is to say the dog just snaps (a dingo is a wild animal, not domesticated) I would NEVER expect my daughter to "leave the dog alone" for an extended period of time, ever, it just does. not. happen. A child that age generally does not have the ability to remember that, they act on impulses, such as "Oh I see that dog I wanna go pet it" thinking and they do it. They are CHILDREN, young children at that. My daughter has been told over and over and over to wait for mommy before going inside the horse barn, and she does, but she does not always remember to wait to go inside the stalls so I have to keep a CLOSE eye on her so she remains safe. Does she always remember? NO. Yes it is the parent's responsibility, but the dog's owner should share in that responsibility I think by keeping the dog a safe distance away from the child as long as the child is in the house.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
you can clearly see by my sig that i don't have children, thanks for being so supportive and pointing it out.

I RARELY read anyone's sigs, and I apologize.









Quote:

she has told us that she doesn't control her child and lets the child pester the dog to the point that it snapped.
But now you are putting words into her mouth - she never said she doesn't control her child or "lets" him pester the dog. It may very well have just happened; been a one-time thing. It's the typical unintended, accidental situation that lots of parents find their children in because no one can possibly watch a child at every single moment.

Quote:

you are trying to put words in my mouth. i said that in the brother's eyes the request to contain the dog is probably ridiculous.
No, I wasn't saying *you* thought that, I was merely commenting on the *notion* that such could be thought of as being ridiculous. (The notion to separate an animal from a child to whom it has already shown aggression)

Quote:

based on the information we have, the dog is well behaved and was controlling itself just fine until the child pestered it. the dog also has everything to lose - as in, if it actually bit, it would have been put down.
Which makes me wonder why he isn't wanting to be more cautious? If something happens, you're right - both child and dog lose. So why risk it and place the burden of behavior on a two year old, whose mother cannot, like I said, stand guard at every single moment and restrain all childish behavior at all times? (Crying, whining, running, etc., all which could set the dog off.)


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

I've got a five year old Aussie Cattle Dog (a breed derived from, among other things, the Dingo), who loves my kids with his entire big furry heart. He treats them exactly as he should. That means that if my three year old is bothering him, he gets up and moves. If she follows him, he gets up and moves again. If she persists, he'll get up and move again, but he'll grumble this time. If dd is still provoking the dog, he will let her know, in no uncertain terms, that he is DONE with this game, by turning towards her and snapping. Not close enough to even touch her, but getting his point across. He is warning her that he is at his limit.

We went through a rough patch with DD1 where she would NOT leave the dog alone, and I almost ended up having to keep the separated all day, which would have been extremely hard in our tiny house. Patient, loving explanations about what is appropriate and what is no appropriate and a lot of "What do you think Baxter is trying to tell you?" finally got it across to DD1 that if Baxter gets up and moves, the nice thing to do is to not follow him and let him have his space.

If you're staying with a dog for a short time, with a child that has been known to pester the dog (or any other dog), my advice would be to keep them apart as much as possible. And as previous posters have said, don't leave your child alone with the dog, not for a second.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask your brother to help you figure out how to keep them separated. I do think it's not entirely fair to ask your brother to banish the dog from the house for the duration of your stay. If it is that big of a problem, I would not stay with my brother. However, it sounds to me like the dog was warning your daughter that he'd had enough, that time he snapped at her. I'd simply stay with your child at all times near the dog and help dc learn how to touch the dog gently.

Also, I'd encourage your brother to make sure that the dog has a place that he can retreat to where no one will bother him... a den-type idea. Then, be sure that you keep dc out of that area, whatever it may be.









Best of luck!


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
I RARELY read anyone's sigs, and I apologize.










thank you

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Which makes me wonder why he isn't wanting to be more cautious? If something happens, you're right - both child and dog lose. So why risk it and place the burden of behavior on a two year old, whose mother cannot, like I said, stand guard at every single moment and restrain all childish behavior at all times? (Crying, whining, running, etc.)

i am in complete agreement with you on this. as a dog owner, if i thought there would be any issues between my dog and guests - especially children - i would take action to prevent any incidents. there would be no hoping for the best.

yes, my dog might not be happy being put in a room or her crate while the guests are there, but in the end it's for her protection too.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
however, i will stand by my statement. a 2.5 year old child can follow the rule - "leave the dog alone" - especially if mom is paying attention. dogs and children can live together quite well, but it takes training on both sides - dog and child - to acheive this.

Well... yeah. Kids and dogs can live together just fine. But there's a learning curve. THIS dog is not used to living with kids. And this kid is not used to living with this dog.

My dd is EXTRAORDINARILY good with animals. Really. It's freaky. She knew to hold out the back of her hand well before 2. I hadn't taught her. BUT, put her with a new-to-her dog with behaviors she's not used to and she can do some things that could put her in danger with some dogs. And she's over 4 yrs old now.

I don't think a 2.5yr old can in any way be adequately prepped to be *safe* around a dog.

And yes, it is unreasonable for someone to be unwilling to restrain a dog when they have a visiting toddler.

I lock up my CATS when we have visiting kids.

-Angela


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## LifeIZBeautiful (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laila2* 
*My brother has a well behaved dingo/pitbull female. However she did give a warning snap when my two year old pestered her at Thanksgiving, not an actual bite, but near.*

We are planning a vacation to visit and hang around in the house in February, and want to start guiding our son towards how to be around dogs. He is 2.5 yr old. Any great ideas?

We knew this may happen, and it put us on gaurd full time at Thanksgiving, and we want to feel more comfortable. My brother is really stubborn about not putting the dog out. We in turn like to visit so want to make it work if we can.


Not a good sign AT ALL. If the dog is snapping, the dog thinks it is above the child. The dog should be on a very short leash when near the children.

"The dingo stole my baby..." sound familiar? I'd be very leary.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 

however, i will stand by my statement. a 2.5 year old child can follow the rule - "leave the dog alone" - especially if mom is paying attention. dogs and children can live together quite well, but it takes training on both sides - dog and child - to acheive this.
.

The problem with this isn't whether or not a 2.5 year old can follwo the rules. Some may be able to, some not. Most, though, are not perfect, and tend to break said rules, at some point. And the consequences for breaking the rule could be deadly. Would you say to someone, "explain to your 2.5 year old she shouldn't go in the swimming pool"? She's old enought o know better, so tell her the rule, and that's that. No. You would not leave her near a swimming pool unattended. Especially not one with teeth. I think the dog should be put in a nother room while you're visiting, op. If not, I would stay at a hotel and visit there. Imagine how terrible everyone would feel if the dog did maim or kill your daughter.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
however, i will stand by my statement. a 2.5 year old child can follow the rule - "leave the dog alone" - especially if mom is paying attention. dogs and children can live together quite well, but it takes training on both sides - dog and child - to acheive this.


I don't mean to harp on you, but my kids (2.5 and 4.5) really could not follow these rules consistently. My brother's gf often brings her 3 small dogs to our house, and I have to follow them everywhere because my two can't seem to understand when the dogs need space. I think the best rule is to always be _right there_ with your child.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

A two-year-old will understand the rule, but they have very little impulse control and love dogs. It is not fair to expect that a 2-year-old is absolutley going to be able to control himself around a pit bull who has already shown aggression.

I wouldn't go unless I knew the dog would be kept away from where we'd be.


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LifeIZBeautiful* 
Not a good sign AT ALL. If the dog is snapping, the dog thinks it is above the child. The dog should be on a very short leash when near the children.

"The dingo stole my baby..." sound familiar? I'd be very leary.

Uh...hardly the case that the dog thinks it's above the child (at least not in every case, we have no indicators of this behavior from the dog). In fact, this is a situation where the dog perceives the child as being pushy by not backing out of the dog's space.

I have a husky\wolf hybrid. He's never been nasty with my kids, my kids are rough with him, not even a warning from him towards them. That dingo stole my baby is a generalization and stereotype. It's not the breed, all dogs have this behavior and instinct.

I agree with all of Catubodua's recommendations. It's about how we act around the dog (including our children) and not the other way around. Why would any one isolate the dog within it's own territory? This is punishing the dog for a perceived possible outcome that probably wouldn't happen. What exactly led up to the warning toward the child? We weren't given that information in full details. A lap dog can be as vicious an attacker as a hybrid or larger breed of dog. It's not the breed at all. The two individuals that would suffer most are the victim and the dog - all for what comes naturally to a dog as instinct. I don't think it's very fair to label the dog a problem dog for what comes naturally.

http://flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

It's a good read and well worth it to understanding why what happened at thansgiving did happen and why it may happen.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i disagree. a 2.5 year old can absolutely follow simple rules. the simplest rule for the child being "leave the dog alone" can be understood by a child that age.

however, i clearly stated that the rules were for mom - as in, "teach your child..." and "do not let your child..." all of them still apply and make sense.

and, i know it may shock lots of you - but dog owners care about their pets just like you care about your kids. i know that everyone will make the arguement how you can't love a pet like you do a child, but for some people, they really do. so, asking him to put the dog out of it's home b/c you can't control a child is probably what's ridiculous in his eyes.

I would hope that pet owners do care about their pets. However, putting them in a safe place away from the child seems like it's protecting the child AND the animal from eachother. If the dog were to seriously injur the child it would be serious trouble. It's just the facts of life.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheal* 

I agree with all of Catubodua's recommendations. It's about how we act around the dog (including our children) and not the other way around. Why would any one isolate the dog within it's own territory?

If your brother in law has this sort of mentality, op, I would not visit.

The reason someone would isolate a dog is to keep a human child safe adn comfortable. It is after all, just a dog. I know some people love their dogs to bits, but I would hoep that they could leave an animal in another room for a visit with a human being. It won't harm the dog to be in another part of the house for the visit.


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## Lemon Juice (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i disagree. a 2.5 year old can absolutely follow simple rules. the simplest rule for the child being "leave the dog alone" can be understood by a child that age.

Yes, can be understood by _some_ 2.5 yr olds...but followed and implemented by a 2.5 yr old all the time, probably not. I am now raising my 4th 2.5 yr old and while she may be able to comprehend this "simplest rule" she may not always follow and be able to remember this. Especially my boys...even my 4 yr old would not be able to have the impulse control to follow this rule. Each child is different and each dog is as well. It is a risk I am not willing to take and advice that I think the OP should consider when her 2.5 year old is in the same house as this dog.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
however, i clearly stated that the rules were for mom - as in, "teach your child..." and "do not let your child..." all of them still apply and make sense.

Even if the rules are for mom...they are being passed onto her very young child. You can try to teach a child..but will the child follow? Not always. They are children. And this young child is not around animals often, it seems, which makes it that much harder for a child to learn this and remember this. The list you stated makes sense for older children...but not for a young toddler, imho. And there are times when a mom can be right on top of this and things can still happen to children...or adults with animals.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
and, i know it may shock lots of you - but dog owners care about their pets just like you care about your kids. i know that everyone will make the arguement how you can't love a pet like you do a child, but for some people, they really do. so, asking him to put the dog out of it's home b/c you can't control a child is probably what's ridiculous in his eyes.

As a vegetarian family who deeply care about animals I do understand that some people care very much about their pets and all animals. I get that. We have pets and we love them very much. It doesn't mean that pets can get away with hurting humans tho (b/c one loves them too much to put them away for a visit) and like PP's mentioned...it is a risk for people and animals to have a pet so intolerant around children (or other people if they are that way, like my BIL's dog). We even put our dog away when children come over...even tho she is gentle and kind and has 4 young children she lives with. It is a precaution b/c not all children are used to dogs and I respect that.

I really don't think it is fair to say that her brother thinks it is ridiculous. This is a child and a dog who obviously do not know how to act around one another. There is a huge learning curve for both animal and child to learn to respect one another. Especially a young child who is not used to animals and a dog not used to children. That is a recipe for disaster and if one really cares about their dog, they will keep them seperate and not be stubborn about it to try to prove a point (being that "you can't control a child").

So I respectfully beg to differ.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
A two-year-old will understand the rule, but they have very little impulse control and love dogs. It is not fair to expect that a 2-year-old is absolutley going to be able to control himself around a pit bull who has already shown aggression.

I wouldn't go unless I knew the dog would be kept away from where we'd be.

ditto


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but there's NO WAY I'd let my kid be around a pit bull. No way. I've read too many accounts of kids being destroyed by that breed in particular.

I also wouldn't let my kid around a dog that snapped at him already. Just seems very dangerous and I'd be a nervous wreck the whole time.

As a disclaimer, I hate dogs for the most part. We had a friend with a dog "who would never hurt anyone." Even though I felt uneasy with my then 14 month old around the dog, I put the feelings aside thinking it was my own dog-hatred. Well, then my 14 month old accidentally tripped (as toddlers do), the dog freaked and bit him in the face. The friend never even so much as apologized....can you tell I'm still pissed? I have a pretty strict no dog rule now. Kids and dogs are just too unpredictable, its a bad mix.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

I highly recommend the following:

dogs and babies

and

Why dogs bite

She does a great job explaining why dogs act the way they do around children and how to make things safe.

Good luck with the visit. It may require some compromise on your brother and your part. If possible, maybe he would read the articles too?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tarajean56* 
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but there's NO WAY I'd let my kid be around a pit bull. No way. I've read too many accounts of kids being destroyed by that breed in particular.

I think breed prejudice doesn't help anyone. I watched a small herd of toddlers and preschoolers play happily with a pit (mix I think...) today. She was lovely. Far more patient with them than I would have been.

-Angela


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I think a compromise is in order. Letting the child get used to being around the dog and maybe crating the dog part of the time so you call all relax a bit. I have two older dogs and two grandchildren. My 2 year old grandson won't leave one of the dogs alone and instead of following him around, we crate her. The other dog is much more tolerant and will put up with a certain amount of fondling from him. However, he is not allowed to hurt either dog and I think he does understand this. I believe a child can learn how to treat an animal, but it does take a lot of discipline and vigilance. I adore my dogs like they are my children, but for a more enjoyable visit, I would probably crate or separate the dog as long it wasn't too long of a time. We had company for Thanksgiving, including people who didn't care for dogs, and I put both dogs in the bedroom. I felt bad for the dogs, but sometimes you both have to meet halfway.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
A two-year-old will understand the rule, but they have very little impulse control and love dogs. It is not fair to expect that a 2-year-old is absolutley going to be able to control himself around a pit bull who has already shown aggression.

I wouldn't go unless I knew the dog would be kept away from where we'd be.

This is what I have been saying all along. I DO have a 2.5 year old and DO know that MY child could not follow that rule for an extended period of time.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
This is what I have been saying all along. I DO have a 2.5 year old and DO know that MY child could not follow that rule for an extended period of time.

I also have a 2 1/2 year old and he can't follow these dog rules either. My SIL is constantly getting mad that DS hugs her dog too hard (a yorkie) and she is always on him. I tell him the rules until I'm blue in the face and I tell him "be gentle" but one day he went and squeezed the dog again and she's all "HARRY, you have to be gentle!!" And I finally snapped. I said "He's only TWO YEARS OLD and he DOESNT HAVE A DOG!" She said "well I've told him 20 times."









We don't go over there anymore because they are unwilling to put the dog away and my DS cannot resist at this point.


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## henny penny (Mar 26, 2008)

I would not let my child anywhere near a dog that has already snapped at him. A young child WILL irritate that dog no matter what you do to prepare your ds. This is not the right dog for your child to practice his animal manners with. One snap could disfigure your child for life. Put your ds first and put the dog out!


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## AkRotts (Sep 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tarajean56* 
.

As a disclaimer, I hate dogs for the most part. We had a friend with a dog "who would never hurt anyone."

See that is part of the problem. There is no such thing as a dog "who would NEVER hurt anyone". ALL dogs will bite under the right circumstances. It just depends on what those circumstances are. Some dogs are just more tolerant than others.

It isn't a breed issue, it is a dog issue.

I have 3 Rottweilers who are FANTASTIC with my 3 toddlers (19 months & 27 month old twins). We had the dogs long before the babies came into the picture. Our dogs are extremely well trained and well socialized. All three of our rotties love to be around the babies. That being said, I would NEVER leave them together unattended!!!!! My children are never left unattended with ANY dog. Not even our little 5 pound poodle/brussels griffon mix. If I have to leave the room, the dogs are crated or go with me. Btw, our small dog would bite way before our Rotties would.









All three of our toddlers have been taught to respect the dogs and how to treat them from day one. Both girls are really good about treating the dogs correctly, but our boy goes out of his way to hit or kick the dogs. Especially the poodle/brussels mix. I ALWAYS have a place that the dogs can go to get away from the babies, so they never feel trapped.

In August we went and stayed with my mil for 2 weeks. She has an older Jack Russel Terrier, who does NOT like kids. I never had to ask her to put him up. I ALWAYS knew where he was and was ALWAYS right there to intervene when the babies tried to interact with him. It wasn't easy keeping three VERY active dog loving toddlers away from a dog who didn't like them, but we did it.







I have to admit, it was exhausting, but we made it work. What really helped was the fact that my fil took the dog everywhere with him. When the babies would start to focus on the dog too much, my fil would put him outside for a while, which gave him a little break and gave us time to get the babies focused on something else.

As a responsible dog owner who LOVES her dogs, I would much rather put my dogs up than take a chance on something happening. If one of my dogs didn't like kids, I wouldn't hesitate to keep that dog away from kids. It is as much for the protection of my dog as it is for the child.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AkRotts* 
As a responsible dog owner who LOVES her dogs, I would much rather put my dogs up than take a chance on something happening. *If one of my dogs didn't like kids, I wouldn't hesitate to keep that dog away from kids. It is as much for the protection of my dog as it is for the child.*









Thank you! If more dog owners had this kind of mentality then a lot of children AND dogs' lives would be saved. The selfish "dog ALWAYS comes first NO MATTER WHAT" attitude just gets under my skin. A responsible dog owner can see both sides and is willing to do what is right to protect both the dog and child and themselves from possible bad consequences. Good job


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

for those who are saying that it's not possible for you to control your toddler's impulses - turn it around in your head in a different dangerous situation.

what if your toddler's impulse was to put his hands on a hot oven door? would you think the same way? "how dare the owner of the house run the oven when my child is there!? don't they know he can't control himself to not touch the oven door?"

what if his impulse was to run into the street? sticking forks into electrical outlets?

if you knew that your child was putting himself in danger, you would stop it - no matter how hard it was or how many times you'd have to teach them. and, you wouldn't throw up your hands and give up - and that's what i'm reading into your posts.

the rules i posted are for mom to follow 100% of the time - she is the adult, she can remember all of them and follow all of them and correct her child each time.

i actually wish the OP hadn't posted that the dog had any pitbull in it - the breed of dog really doesn't matter.


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## Labbemama (May 23, 2008)

It sounded to me like the Uncle and Dogs Owner wanted to keep the dog kenneled up. I would say go along with the owners wishes they know their pet's tendencies best.

If you want your child to get to know how to act around animals you can find AKC Good Neighbor dogs who might be more tried and true with kids. There are some awesome Therapy dogs who come to a special needs school where I work. Introduce your young one to a very kid friendly dog first.

I just took my dog to the vet and found out that a dog can bite even with a muzzle on. (Yeah thought I was being really smart and getting a muzzle on her for her shots.) Last time she was there she snapped at them after they tried to remove her from her kennel after her spay coming out of anethesia. Any dog will snap if it is in enough pain.

I do work with several families with pitbulls in their homes and I make sure that the owner introduces me to the dog. They are very protective by nature and their owners tend to me more conscience of dog laws because their dogs can be taken away for practically any infraction. I tell you what there is a Boston Terrier pup that scares me half to death! LOL


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## GirlBoyGirlBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

I totally understand that one must be 100% vigilant around the little ones with dogs, but an oven won't follow you into the next room and an electrical outlet can be covered or easily avoided--a living, breathing doggie not as easily.

We have a marvelous labrador who is practically mauled by the younger ones and I have to constantly work on their instincts so that they won't do it to strange dogs. I always tell them to be gentle with her, etc., but she kind of likes it too









So while I think your point is valid, I also think that it doesn't hurt the dog to be put away for a visit. Our dog spends hours in the dog run if we have to leave for awhile and need to be sure she's safe. She has toys and water and doesn't do much but sleep anyway out there.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
for those who are saying that it's not possible for you to control your toddler's impulses - turn it around in your head in a different dangerous situation.

what if your toddler's impulse was to put his hands on a hot oven door? would you think the same way? "how dare the owner of the house run the oven when my child is there!? don't they know he can't control himself to not touch the oven door?"

what if his impulse was to run into the street? sticking forks into electrical outlets?

if you knew that your child was putting himself in danger, you would stop it - no matter how hard it was or how many times you'd have to teach them. and, you wouldn't throw up your hands and give up - and that's what i'm reading into your posts.

the rules i posted are for mom to follow 100% of the time - she is the adult, she can remember all of them and follow all of them and correct her child each time.

i actually wish the OP hadn't posted that the dog had any pitbull in it - the breed of dog really doesn't matter.

an oven door and a fork and an electrical outlet can't come up to a child. and you can cover outlets, close the door to the kitchen, put the forks up high. the same as putting a dog in another part of the house.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GirlBoyGirlBoy* 
I totally understand that one must be 100% vigilant around the little ones with dogs, but an oven won't follow you into the next room and an electrical outlet can be covered or easily avoided--a living, breathing doggie not as easily.

We have a marvelous labrador who is practically mauled by the younger ones and I have to constantly work on their instincts so that they won't do it to strange dogs. I always tell them to be gentle with her, etc., but she kind of likes it too









So while I think your point is valid, I also think that it doesn't hurt the dog to be put away for a visit. Our dog spends hours in the dog run if we have to leave for awhile and need to be sure she's safe. She has toys and water and doesn't do much but sleep anyway out there.

oops, should have read ahead


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
an oven door and a fork and an electrical outlet can't come up to a child. and you can cover outlets, close the door to the kitchen, put the forks up high. the same as putting a dog in another part of the house.

Exactly!!!!!! There is a HUGE difference between my girl sticking her head into an oven and petting a dog. It is comparing apples to oranges I am sorry to say. I would never say to someone to stop baking or cooking because my child is over, that would be stupid, I can remove my child from that room if I think she is endangering herself. We are talking about YOUNG children here. Yes I know I am the mommy and I know I have to follow rules, geez, but come on now. And breeds have nothing to do with it, I am just as leery about a damn poodle as I am a pit bull trust me on that.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

i don't see the difference. in all the situations the toddler is putting himself in danger but how you gals are chosing to read the situation changes - it's still a basic of controlling your child in dangerous situations.

and, in the original post the dog was not following the child, the child pestered the dog so the analogy of the oven can't follow the kid won't work. nevermind the fact that not all kitchens have doors, etc, etc.

bottom line, the OP asked for advice on how to handle the situation. you can make any derogatory comments about the uncle you like, but he's told her what the situation will be if she decides to visit. the dog will not be put away.

i'm trying to give her advice that will actually keep both child and dog safe. if mom decides to go to uncle's house knowing that her child pesters the dog and the dog has snapped, it's 100% her responsibility to control the situation and control all interactions between the child and the dog.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes but she does not own the dog, so therefore I don't think the responsibility should rest 100 percent on her. That is not fair at all. I guess it just boils down to what your opinion is of the situation I guess. I think personally the dog should be put away for both the safety of the dog and child. But, that is just me, and I know how 2.5 year old children can be, I live with one 24/7, and it is just not possible for some children to control their impulses.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

i feel like my post on how i'd handle this as the dog owner is getting ignored / overlooked and people are focusing one thing someone quoted. i am not arguing that the dog shouldn't get put in a separate room for some of the visit.

however - the uncle/brother has told her he will not do this. so, in my eyes, if OP still choses to go knowing that the dog has snapped at her child and her child pesters the dog, she is 100% responsible for the safety of her child.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i feel like my post on how i'd handle this as the dog owner is getting ignored / overlooked and people are focusing one thing someone quoted. i am not arguing that the dog shouldn't get put in a separate room for some of the visit.

however - the uncle/brother has told her he will not do this. so, in my eyes, if OP still choses to go knowing that the dog has snapped at her child and her child pesters the dog, she is 100% responsible for the safety of her child.

Ok I get you now I think. I personally think the mom should not take the kid at all and then everyone is safe







But, where I disagree is that the dog owner SHOULD be partly responsible for the dog's actions, just as the mom is responsible for the child's actions. It is a two way street here.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

again, i don't disagree that that dog owner should be responsible or concerned about the child.

however, he said the dog won't be put away - no matter what anyone's personal feelings are about that, there it is, you know? saying the brother is this or that or should do this or that doesn't change the facts of the situation.

OP knows that's how uncle feels and must make her decisions based on that. i believe what happens while there is on her.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
again, i don't disagree that that dog owner should be responsible or concerned about the child.

however, he said the dog won't be put away - no matter what anyone's personal feelings are about that, there it is, you know? saying the brother is this or that or should do this or that doesn't change the facts of the situation.

OP knows that's how uncle feels and must make her decisions based on that. i believe what happens while there is on her.

I see where you are coming from (light bulb moment) Yes the facts are the dog won't be put away so what way can the mom protect the child? By keeping that child within reach AT ALL TIMES and watching that dog. I just don't think a child can control impulses like "don't touch the dog" for an extended period of time, therefore the mom HAS to remain on alert, see what I mean? It would be more IDEAL if she could talk with the brother to get him to understand where she is coming from that she has a small child who doesn't understand the danger of that dog and he needs to understand the situation. I hope it all works out for the best.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

if you would be so kind to re-read the rules i had for mom after your "light bulb moment"







you'll see that has been my point the whole time. mom needs to have the rule for child - "don't touch the dog" and make sure he follows it. and mom needs to follow the rest of them 100% of the time she is there.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
if you would be so kind to re-read the rules i had for mom after your "light bulb moment"







you'll see that has been my point the whole time. mom needs to have the rule for child - "don't touch the dog" and make sure he follows it. and mom needs to follow the rest of them 100% of the time she is there.









:


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## pandora665 (Mar 13, 2006)

*I would not visit for an extended amount of time if your brother is unwilling to put the dog away.*

There is no way you can go to your brother's house and not be "ON GUARD" if he will not put the dog in a separate room with a gate. The dog has snapped at him already - regardless of your toddler's behavior, that is not a good sign. Children of 2.5 yrs may be able to understand the rule "leave the dog alone", but they will need constant reminders. You will need to be within 1 step of them at all times - that is not very feasible for an extended visit.

A child learns about an oven or outlets for years (b/c the oven and outlets are ALWAYS in their house) while the outlets and oven are protected and covered (and stationary). By 2 and 1/2, most children know not to touch the stove. Some of them (my DD included) are still known to say "Don't touch" AS they are touching the stove. If the stove is on, I am standing RIGHT there. If the oven is on, I am typically in a different room with my child.

We don't have a cat or dog, and the only way my child would learn to stay away from them would be to have TONS of exposure and reminders. She has an impulse to love the doggie, and toddler impulses are STRONG. Dogs have INNATE impulses to bite when threatened, especially if showing prior snapping behavior. This is a recipe for disaster.

My brother has dogs which are GREAT around kids - both were raised from pups with an in-home daycare. He still puts them in a separate room for the majority of the visit, b/c we want to enjoy visiting with each other, not patrolling DD. Then she gets some time with them at the end of the visit, when she and they have calmed down from the excitement of company. Then I can be on guard for a shorter amount of time.

Good luck - family stuff is hard.


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## Sotevenn (Jan 4, 2007)

If the dog has already snapped at your child, I'd just keep them separated if that isn't possible I wouldn't visit. I wouldn't risk my child doing something unexpected to provoke the dog or the dog misinterpreting the child's actions.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i don't see the difference. in all the situations the toddler is putting himself in danger but how you gals are chosing to read the situation changes - it's still a basic of controlling your child in dangerous situations.

and, in the original post the dog was not following the child, the child pestered the dog so the analogy of the oven can't follow the kid won't work. nevermind the fact that not all kitchens have doors, etc, etc.

bottom line, the OP asked for advice on how to handle the situation. you can make any derogatory comments about the uncle you like, but he's told her what the situation will be if she decides to visit. the dog will not be put away.

i'm trying to give her advice that will actually keep both child and dog safe. if mom decides to go to uncle's house knowing that her child pesters the dog and the dog has snapped, it's 100% her responsibility to control the situation and control all interactions between the child and the dog.

''

and the dog and his "parent" are responsible for what, exactly, in your scenario? Because a 2 yo and a dog have a lot in common.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
if you would be so kind to re-read the rules i had for mom after your "light bulb moment"







you'll see that has been my point the whole time. mom needs to have the rule for child - "don't touch the dog" and make sure he follows it. and mom needs to follow the rest of them 100% of the time she is there.


and one of my points is there is no way to make sure any child follows any rule 100% of the time. especially not at 2.5 years old. also, how is that a nice environment for a child to be told no and stop the entire time??? op, i would not visit your brother if the dog will not be put away.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Ok I get you now I think. I personally think the mom should not take the kid at all and then everyone is safe







But, where I disagree is that the dog owner SHOULD be partly responsible for the dog's actions, just as the mom is responsible for the child's actions. It is a two way street here.

a great big yeah that.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
and one of my points is there is no way to make sure any child follows any rule 100% of the time. especially not at 2.5 years old. also, how is that a nice environment for a child to be told no and stop the entire time??? op, i would not visit your brother if the dog will not be put away.

so it's fine with you when your child breaks the rule about running out into the road? getting into the car with a stranger? touching the hot stove? i mean, if you can't get a child to follow rules 100% of the time, it must be ok for them to do any of those, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
and the dog and his "parent" are responsible for what, exactly, in your scenario? Because a 2 yo and a dog have a lot in common.

again, i believe you haven't bothered to read my post on what my feelings are on how the dog owner should handle this. i don't believe that owner or dog have no responsiblity.

i do believe that OP knows that this is a dangerous situation and has 100% of the responsibility for the decision if she goes and if child goes with her. she's being told by owner that he's not going to be responsible and he won't contain the dog - if she still choses to go, knowing what she does, and something goes wrong, how on earth do we blame anyone but her?


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

It does not matter if your child "follows the rules" or not. These dogs can attack unprovoked - especially with a mix of dingo, which is a wild animal, not a domesticated breed.

In our area, a little girl was recently attacked by a pit bull while playing on a tire swing. She was not interacting with the dog, it attacked her unprovoked. The dog then turned on the girl's father while he tried to rescue her, and would not stop attacking until a sheriff's deputy arrived and shot it. The dog's owner says that he has been good with kids in the past.

Article is here (warning, the details are graphic):
http://www.katu.com/news/34825304.html


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
so it's fine with you when your child breaks the rule about running out into the road? getting into the car with a stranger? touching the hot stove? i mean, if you can't get a child to follow rules 100% of the time, it must be ok for them to do any of those, right?

?

This is not meant to be snarky, or hurtful, I promise. But I really think part of the reason why you are not seeing eye to eye with so many of us is beacuase you don't yet have a 2.5 year old. It is not "okay" for a child to do any of the things you listed. But a street does not run up to a child. I am really surprised that you can't see the difference.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
again, i believe you haven't bothered to read my post on what my feelings are on how the dog owner should handle this. i don't believe that owner or dog have no responsiblity.

i do believe that OP knows that this is a dangerous situation and has 100% of the responsibility for the decision if she goes and if child goes with her. she's being told by owner that he's not going to be responsible and he won't contain the dog - if she still choses to go, knowing what she does, and something goes wrong, how on earth do we blame anyone but her?

I've read the entire thread. I have stated severeal times the op should not go, but NOT because her 2.5 year old can't follow rules, but because her brother is being inconsiderate and dangerous. That's where we can't agree.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I've read the entire thread. I have stated severeal times the op should not go, but NOT because her 2.5 year old can't follow rules, but because her brother is being inconsiderate and dangerous. That's where we can't agree.

I'm not actually sure we don't agree on this point. All I'm saying is - if she still choses to go, knowing what she does, how do we blame the brother for any incidents?

as for the other thing, i don't believe you were trying to get a dig at me. i'm equally surprised that you can't see my point of view - a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation. as a parent, you are either being vigilant about the dangerous situation or you're not. i don't see how dividing them up into different categories makes one dangerous situation more acceptable than the other.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:

so it's fine with you when your child breaks the rule about running out into the road? getting into the car with a stranger? touching the hot stove? i mean, if you can't get a child to follow rules 100% of the time, it must be ok for them to do any of those, right?
These examples aren't even remotely similar to the dog....

The dog will be there, in the open, tempting the child by his very nature of being a dog - something living, cuddly, breathing, and perhaps to be played with. Secondly, the dog has no impulse control either, and could react to ANYTHING that child could do without a moment's notice.

If you want to compare the dog to these things, then you'd have to say that the stranger in the car was parked in the road, in the same spot all day, tempting, tempting and tempting the child the whole time kiddo was outside, and could at any time hop out of his car and just nab the child. What mother in her right mind, seeing that stranger, would even ALLOW her child outside?

Or an oven, following a child around a home, looking ever so interesting and fun to touch and play with, which could at any moment just open up its door and swallow the child. And let me add here too that yeah, touching a hot stove is not a good idea, but that stove isn't going to force its heat on a child if the child walks too near it, or trips into it, or runs and screams around it. The oven just sits there. The dog may not.

It's not the same situation at all. The dog is ALIVE and can act and react on his own instinct - he's not just going to be sitting there like a lump.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Catubodua - I do see your point. THe reality of the situation is that the dog's owner is planning on doing nothing. I find this reprehensible - that he can't even meet them in the middle - but that is the situation. So, the Mom either has to decline the invite or be extra super vigilant.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Catubodua said:


> I'm not actually sure we don't agree on this point. All I'm saying is - if she still choses to go, knowing what she does, how do we blame the brother for any incidents?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> if the brother is going to allow a child around the dog, and the dog attacks the child, then he is responsible, legally if not morally. if his dog is not safe to be around kids, he shouldn't allow kids in his home.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
as for the other thing, i don't believe you were trying to get a dig at me. i'm equally surprised that you can't see my point of view - a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation is a dangerous situation. as a parent, you are either being vigilant about the dangerous situation or you're not. i don't see how dividing them up into different categories makes one dangerous situation more acceptable than the other.


Well, lets say I tell my child to never talk to strangers, and I never never leave my child alone, but a stranger breaks into my home (or breaks into my sisters home while we are visiting) and abducts my child, is that my responsibity? A living thing with free will (the dog) is different than an inanimate object.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

oh, i'm so glad someone finally see the point i've been trying to make! quite honestly, it's exhausting trying to make these points with mommies.


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

The dog owner in the OP is being careless. Why would he allow his dog to be put into the way of harm (and a rambunctious 2.5-yr old is quite able to inflict harm on a dog), and not be willing to protect this treasured pet ?

Why invite a family with a young child over if he isn't willing to protect his pet ?

It baffles me - both as a parent (my kids are 2, 4, and 6 yrs old), and as a dog owner.


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
These examples aren't even remotely similar to the dog....

The dog will be there, in the open, tempting the child by his very nature of being a dog - something living, cuddly, breathing, and perhaps to be played with. Secondly, the dog has no impulse control either, and could react to ANYTHING that child could do without a moment's notice.

If you want to compare the dog to these things, then you'd have to say that the stranger in the car was parked in the road, in the same spot all day, tempting, tempting and tempting the child the whole time kiddo was outside, and could at any time hop out of his car and just nab the child. What mother in her right mind, seeing that stranger, would even ALLOW her child outside?

Or an oven, following a child around a home, looking ever so interesting and fun to touch and play with, which could at any moment just open up its door and swallow the child. And let me add here too that yeah, touching a hot stove is not a good idea, but that stove isn't going to force its heat on a child if the child walks too near it, or trips into it, or runs and screams around it. The oven just sits there. The dog may not.

It's not the same situation at all. The dog is ALIVE and can act and react on his own instinct - he's not just going to be sitting there like a lump.

Exactly.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

One year ago this week my 3 year old was bitten in the face by my brothers dog. We rushed him to Boston Children's where he was put under for plastic surgery. A year later there are faint, faint scars but the situation was traumatic for all parties. My son, by far has done the best. It has been a long year of healing relationships and everyone involved (my mother, brother, my dh and myself) was hurt in some way. It was a horrible experience.

We were living with my parents for a year to save and a few months before we moved out my brother moved home with his dog. We were warned by a neighbor that it was a "nervous" dog and I did all the research. My brother refused to crate him and upon research we found it was not recommended for the breed. We did put up gates but after time everyone grew "lax". My brother was never home and we always were. It happened at dinnertime and we were home making dinner and listening to Christmas carols. My son was sitting under the table with the dog quietly and in one second it happened. He told us later he tried to "hug" him.

My brother thinks it was our fault for not keeping them separate. My husband thinks it was my brother's fault for being an irresponsible pet owner who was never home. The dog had nipped people on many occasions and we knew he was "nervous".

The dog still lives at my mothers and this was very hard for us to reconcile. We felt like everyone "chose" the dog. When we are there to visit the dog is put in the basement and sometimes they put the muzzle on and we sit right with my son so he can pet him. Strangely enough my son is not afraid of the dog.

My advice is to keep the child and dog separate no matter what. You think you are being vigilant but all it takes is you looking up for a second. The child can pull hair or lean on the dog and be bit with you right there. It is *SO* not worth it.

Good luck.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
oh, i'm so glad someone finally see the point i've been trying to make! quite honestly, it's exhausting trying to make these points with mommies.

It's coz you are not listening to people who are posting information that is outside your experience, IMO. You simply cannot be on guard the whole time, its impossible. And no, 2.5 year olds cannot be trusted to obey rules consistently. I would not go visit my brother if his front door opened directly onto a busy street and he refused to keep it closed. Same thing with a dingo cross that has already snapped at the child. That's dangerous.


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## Lemon Juice (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's coz you are not listening to people who are posting information that is outside your experience, IMO. You simply cannot be on guard the whole time, its impossible. And no, 2.5 year olds cannot be trusted to obey rules consistently. I would not go visit my brother if his front door opened directly onto a busy street and he refused to keep it closed. Same thing with a dingo cross that has already snapped at the child. That's dangerous.

ITA. Very well said, like so many PP's.

Like I said before as well...even if you are on top of this and follow the "rules"...it can still happen! Even if the child is not doing anything...even if you are not doing anything to provoke a dog...it can still happen. Even if you are both there and following your child and you are following these "rules". It can still happen! And then we go blame the mother?! Harsh. And the other analogies compared to a dog...well I'm not even going to comment on that. Pointless.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
One year ago this week my 3 year old was bitten in the face by my brothers dog. We rushed him to Boston Children's where he was put under for plastic surgery. A year later there are faint, faint scars but the situation was traumatic for all parties. My son, by far has done the best. It has been a long year of healing relationships and everyone involved (my mother, brother, my dh and myself) was hurt in some way. It was a horrible experience.

We were living with my parents for a year to save and a few months before we moved out my brother moved home with his dog. We were warned by a neighbor that it was a "nervous" dog and I did all the research. My brother refused to crate him and upon research we found it was not recommended for the breed. We did put up gates but after time everyone grew "lax". My brother was never home and we always were. It happened at dinnertime and we were home making dinner and listening to Christmas carols. My son was sitting under the table with the dog quietly and in one second it happened. He told us later he tried to "hug" him.

My brother thinks it was our fault for not keeping them separate. My husband thinks it was my brother's fault for being an irresponsible pet owner who was never home. The dog had nipped people on many occasions and we knew he was "nervous".

The dog still lives at my mothers and this was very hard for us to reconcile. We felt like everyone "chose" the dog. When we are there to visit the dog is put in the basement and sometimes they put the muzzle on and we sit right with my son so he can pet him. Strangely enough my son is not afraid of the dog.

My advice is to keep the child and dog separate no matter what. You think you are being vigilant but all it takes is you looking up for a second. The child can pull hair or lean on the dog and be bit with you right there. It is *SO* not worth it.

Good luck.









I am so sorry your ds and you and your family went through that.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
One year ago this week my 3 year old was bitten in the face by my brothers dog. We rushed him to Boston Children's where he was put under for plastic surgery. A year later there are faint, faint scars but the situation was traumatic for all parties. My son, by far has done the best. It has been a long year of healing relationships and everyone involved (my mother, brother, my dh and myself) was hurt in some way. It was a horrible experience.

We were living with my parents for a year to save and a few months before we moved out my brother moved home with his dog. We were warned by a neighbor that it was a "nervous" dog and I did all the research. My brother refused to crate him and upon research we found it was not recommended for the breed. We did put up gates but after time everyone grew "lax". My brother was never home and we always were. It happened at dinnertime and we were home making dinner and listening to Christmas carols. My son was sitting under the table with the dog quietly and in one second it happened. He told us later he tried to "hug" him.

My brother thinks it was our fault for not keeping them separate. My husband thinks it was my brother's fault for being an irresponsible pet owner who was never home. The dog had nipped people on many occasions and we knew he was "nervous".

The dog still lives at my mothers and this was very hard for us to reconcile. We felt like everyone "chose" the dog. When we are there to visit the dog is put in the basement and sometimes they put the muzzle on and we sit right with my son so he can pet him. Strangely enough my son is not afraid of the dog.

My advice is to keep the child and dog separate no matter what. You think you are being vigilant but all it takes is you looking up for a second. The child can pull hair or lean on the dog and be bit with you right there. It is *SO* not worth it.

Good luck.









I'm so very sorry you went through that and that it feels like your family chose the dog over your son. That must feel horrible.

To the OP, I would not go if my brother wouldn't crate or otherwise contain his dog. My grandmother leashes her very docile golden retriever and golden doodle when we visit and sometimes gates them in the kitchen. These dogs have been great with 8 grandkids but you can never, ever be too careful when there are babies/toddlers/preschoolers involved. Not only could something happen in an INSTANT but when a child is SO small, that injury could be devastatingly debilitating or fatal fairly easily.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
One year ago this week my 3 year old was bitten in the face by my brothers dog. We rushed him to Boston Children's where he was put under for plastic surgery. A year later there are faint, faint scars but the situation was traumatic for all parties. My son, by far has done the best. It has been a long year of healing relationships and everyone involved (my mother, brother, my dh and myself) was hurt in some way. It was a horrible experience.

We were living with my parents for a year to save and a few months before we moved out my brother moved home with his dog. We were warned by a neighbor that it was a "nervous" dog and I did all the research. My brother refused to crate him and upon research we found it was not recommended for the breed. We did put up gates but after time everyone grew "lax". My brother was never home and we always were. It happened at dinnertime and we were home making dinner and listening to Christmas carols. My son was sitting under the table with the dog quietly and in one second it happened. He told us later he tried to "hug" him.

My brother thinks it was our fault for not keeping them separate. My husband thinks it was my brother's fault for being an irresponsible pet owner who was never home. The dog had nipped people on many occasions and we knew he was "nervous".

The dog still lives at my mothers and this was very hard for us to reconcile. We felt like everyone "chose" the dog. When we are there to visit the dog is put in the basement and sometimes they put the muzzle on and we sit right with my son so he can pet him. Strangely enough my son is not afraid of the dog.

My advice is to keep the child and dog separate no matter what. You think you are being vigilant but all it takes is you looking up for a second. The child can pull hair or lean on the dog and be bit with you right there. It is *SO* not worth it.

Good luck.

I'm so sorry for what happened to your son (and your entire family). Thank you for sharing this, though.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's coz you are not listening to people who are posting information that is outside your experience, IMO. You simply cannot be on guard the whole time, its impossible. And no, 2.5 year olds cannot be trusted to obey rules consistently. I would not go visit my brother if his front door opened directly onto a busy street and he refused to keep it closed. Same thing with a dingo cross that has already snapped at the child. That's dangerous.

exactly.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 

if the brother is going to allow a child around the dog, and the dog attacks the child, then he is responsible, legally if not morally. if his dog is not safe to be around kids, he shouldn't allow kids in his home.

just quoting myself here, because I think it's an important point to make - the brother is the one who would be at fault for allowing his dog to be around a child. the brother shouldn't have young houseguests.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i disagree. a 2.5 year old can absolutely follow simple rules. the simplest rule for the child being "leave the dog alone" can be understood by a child that age.

Ummm... how many 2.5 year olds have you been around? Because I have a 5 year old who still can't follow simple directions a lot of times. He certaintly couldn't at 2.5. (He does have autism though so not a typical child). HOWEVER, I also work at a daycare. I've been doing childcare for 6+ years. No 2.5 year old that I've known has been able to follow a simple rule with 100% accuracy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
One year ago this week my 3 year old was bitten in the face by my brothers dog.









I'm so sorry your family went through this. I'm glad everyone is healing (physically and emotionally).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
My advice is to keep the child and dog separate no matter what. You think you are being vigilant but all it takes is you looking up for a second. The child can pull hair or lean on the dog and be bit with you right there. It is *SO* not worth it.

I agree. My ds was bit on the face (not bad, thank God) by my mom's ex-husbands dog. The guy was living with mom, I was their nanny to their youngest kids so spent more time there than anyone. I told the guy I was NOT comfortable with this dog (who he bought as a puppy- chocolate lab- and never had time to train because he was never home) and did NOT want it on the same floor of the house as I and the kids were. He refused to put the dog downstairs so most days I would when the puppy (now a big puppy) would get too out of control. The dog nipped at ME multiple times. One day ds was sitting right next to me (literally could reach out and grab him). Puppy was right next to us. DS moved suddenly (like all young kids do) and the dog jumped and nipped. Right under ds's eye. Another 1/2 inch and ds would have been at risk of losing that eye. I refused to come back to the house unless the dog was on a different floor or outside. The guy refused to give the dog to someone who could care for him. A few weeks later the dog nipped at mom and her ex-husbands young daughter. Mom insisted the dog get put down (







). A few months later the guy bought another puppy


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## 2goingon2 (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't have time to read every response but here's my .02. The brother needs to give a bit on this one. Keep the dog away from the child. Yes, a 2.5 year old ( I'm pregnant with #4 so I do have some experience here) can understand _somewhat to stay away from the dog but accidents do happen. Case in point: my in-laws have 'custody' of my husband's 14 year old dog (long story, MIL fell in love and dog-napped her 3 years ago, fenced in yard, etc, etc). She has never liked small children nor been around them much and we know that. We watched her like a hawk around our 14 month old over Thanksgiving who naturally, wanted to touch this big fuzzy creature. The first warning growl and Mazzy was put out in her "condo" for a bit. Next time she came back in, we made sure Joseph didn't touch her but as he was walking across the room and was near her, he tripped and fell on her. She barked and nipped him. He had a scratch across his forehead, a small puncture wound below his eye and a nick/scratch on his eyelid. We were incredibly lucky. It has been decided that we can't expect Mazzy to tolerate Joseph, it's not her nature nor can we expect Joseph to understand fully so they will not be in the same room together again. Odds are, Mazzy doesn't have that much longer to live and we are not risking our child's safety. Period. End of story. Everyone is in complete agreement. So, even with constant hovering and intervention, some accidents you can't prevent and the life and safety and well-being of your child outweighs the dog's ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Keep it outside or in another part of the house or, if the owner is that stubborn, don't go. I had a dog that was 7 years old when my first child was born and yes, he was my baby and I loved him but he was still a dog. Not a child._


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I have read some of the replies but not all but I would like to respond.

We have a dog who we adopted before DS was born. We suspect that the dog had been abused by the previous owners so we were nervous about our son and dog interacting. As of today they get along very well... but that has been 3 years worth of work and vigilence. That being said I think it was one of the very first posts where some one listed "rules" for interaction which I thought were great. What I would add that if your brother does not want to crate the dog, he should make sure that there is a spot in the house where the dog can go where no one can bug him (adults and children). Sort of a safety zone for the dog.

I would also like to add that the fact that the dog gave a warning snap is good and bad. Good because the dog is following the usual doggy behaviours in the warning system. It was clearly saying "I'm getting mad, leave me alone". Bad because the dog had already passed the warning growl stage. The next/last stage is the nip/bite. I love dogs, I think they can be a wonderful addition to the family but you can never forget that they are an animal and will react as such.

If it were a friend's house then I would recommend not going but because its your family it sounds like you want to try to make it work. I would recommend that when you do visit, you look at it as a "teaching my toddler how to act around dogs" time as opposed to family time. It will take vigilance and hard work but it will teach your child to be "safer" around animals. No one can ever be safe because ultimately you never know how an animal is going to react.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheal* 
Uh...hardly the case that the dog thinks it's above the child (at least not in every case, we have no indicators of this behavior from the dog). In fact, this is a situation where the dog perceives the child as being pushy by not backing out of the dog's space.

I have a husky\wolf hybrid. He's never been nasty with my kids, my kids are rough with him, not even a warning from him towards them. That dingo stole my baby is a generalization and stereotype. It's not the breed, all dogs have this behavior and instinct.

I agree with all of Catubodua's recommendations. It's about how we act around the dog (including our children) and not the other way around. Why would any one isolate the dog within it's own territory? This is punishing the dog for a perceived possible outcome that probably wouldn't happen. What exactly led up to the warning toward the child? We weren't given that information in full details. A lap dog can be as vicious an attacker as a hybrid or larger breed of dog. It's not the breed at all. The two individuals that would suffer most are the victim and the dog - all for what comes naturally to a dog as instinct. I don't think it's very fair to label the dog a problem dog for what comes naturally.

http://flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

It's a good read and well worth it to understanding why what happened at thansgiving did happen and why it may happen.


I agree that it is not fair to label the dog for acting naturally.

What led up to the snap, that did not touch, is my son following it aroung and trying to pet it near the tail. It was Thanksgiving in a crowded room. We left shortly after.

We are not staying at DB's house. I think a muzzle is a good idea, and trying to convince him to keep the dog in the bedroom while we are there.

I will also send this thread to him to give him insight to more moms, letting him know I am not alone.

I would like to say more, but am so busy.

Thanks for all the input.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Well, lets say I tell my child to never talk to strangers, and I never never leave my child alone, but a stranger breaks into my home (or breaks into my sisters home while we are visiting) and abducts my child, is that my responsibity? A living thing with free will (the dog) is different than an inanimate object.

The difference is choice - you aren't choosing to let the stranger break into your home or your sister's home. The OP is making a choice.

The points I was trying to make with the examples of the hot stove, running into traffic, etc, is they are all dangerous situations - and I would bet a lot of money that all of you are hyper vigilant about keeping your children out of those situations with no exceptions. So why aren't you willing to apply the same thought process to this dangerous situation? I understand that the oven can't move toward a child and a dog can but in the OP the dog wasn't moving toward the child, it was trying to avoid him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's coz you are not listening to people who are posting information that is outside your experience, IMO. You simply cannot be on guard the whole time, its impossible. And no, 2.5 year olds cannot be trusted to obey rules consistently. I would not go visit my brother if his front door opened directly onto a busy street and he refused to keep it closed. Same thing with a dingo cross that has already snapped at the child. That's dangerous.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
Ummm... how many 2.5 year olds have you been around? Because I have a 5 year old who still can't follow simple directions a lot of times. He certaintly couldn't at 2.5. (He does have autism though so not a typical child). HOWEVER, I also work at a daycare. I've been doing childcare for 6+ years. No 2.5 year old that I've known has been able to follow a simple rule with 100% accuracy.

Both of you are making huge assumptions about me, my family life and my experiences with children simply because I haven't had a child of my own. If the sole judge of whether someone can respond to these sorts of threads is that they personally have to have given birth, then feel free to ignore me.

For the OP - I hope you and your brother can come to an arrangement that works well for all and I hope showing him this thread helps clarify things for him.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I think what Catubodua is trying to say is the facts are this:
1. The dog snapped at the child
2. The brother is *UNWILLING* to restrain the dog
So if she *IS* going to visit the brother her *ONLY* choice in the matter is to *WATCH THE CHILD LIKE A HAWK.* Putting the dog away is *NOT* an option in this scenario (because the brother already stated it is not an option.) Some have *SUGGESTED* he do that (which I am all for) BUT he DOES NOT do that, the only option she has should she choose to go visit, is to *WATCH* the child because she *KNOWS* the dog has snapped once, so it is partly her responsibility as a mother to watch her child at all times.

Yes, I do hope the owner meets her in the middle and will restrain the dog away from the child, but he has already said no, these are the facts and that is her choice. That is what Catubodua is trying to say, I believe.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I think what Catubodua is trying to say is the facts are this:
1. The dog snapped at the child
2. The brother is *UNWILLING* to restrain the dog
So if she *IS* going to visit the brother her *ONLY* choice in the matter is to *WATCH THE CHILD LIKE A HAWK.* Putting the dog away is *NOT* an option in this scenario (because the brother already stated it is not an option.) Some have *SUGGESTED* he do that (which I am all for) BUT he DOES NOT do that, the only option she has should she choose to go visit, is to *WATCH* the child because she *KNOWS* the dog has snapped once, so it is partly her responsibility as a mother to watch her child at all times.

Yes, I do hope the owner meets her in the middle and will restrain the dog away from the child, but he has already said no, these are the facts and that is her choice. That is what Catubodua is trying to say, I believe.

Right. I believe what the other posters are trying to say is that, in their opinion, that even with watching the child (and dog) like a hawk it is not safe enough unless he is willing to compromise.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
Right. I believe what the other posters are trying to say is that, in their opinion, that even with watching the child (and dog) like a hawk it is not safe enough unless he is willing to compromise.

Yep, but what Catubodua is saying IF the mom DOES choose go anyway, that is her ONLY option because the owner will not put the dog away. (Catubodua I hope I am getting this right.....)


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Yep, but what Catubodua is saying IF the mom DOES choose go anyway, that is her ONLY option because the owner will not put the dog away. (Catubodua I hope I am getting this right.....)

ita- that would be the only option.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I think what Catubodua is trying to say is the facts are this:
1. The dog snapped at the child
2. The brother is *UNWILLING* to restrain the dog
So if she *IS* going to visit the brother her *ONLY* choice in the matter is to *WATCH THE CHILD LIKE A HAWK.* Putting the dog away is *NOT* an option in this scenario (because the brother already stated it is not an option.) Some have *SUGGESTED* he do that (which I am all for) BUT he DOES NOT do that, the only option she has should she choose to go visit, is to *WATCH* the child because she *KNOWS* the dog has snapped once, so it is partly her responsibility as a mother to watch her child at all times.

Yes, I do hope the owner meets her in the middle and will restrain the dog away from the child, but he has already said no, these are the facts and that is her choice. That is what Catubodua is trying to say, I believe.

the problem is that catuba is implying that mothers should be able to firce 2yo to follow rules without fail. she does not see how unrealistic that is. and if something were to happen between the dog and the child, catuba would place most, if not all, the blame on the child and its mother, whereas, I and other posters, believe the dog owner would be just as much, if not more, at fault.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yep. It's the ideas that 2.5 year olds can consistently follow rules, and that it is a doable thing to spend 24/7 monitoring the child and dog together.


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## GirlBoyGirlBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

I think I just wouldn't go....It is tiring enough following the toddlers around to keep them safe, but to worry about the whereabouts of the dog as well and not be able to participate in a conversation or socialize at all would take all the fun out of a visit. Been there, done that. 18 months to 3 is kind of sucky anyway as far as restaurants and visits if you ask me!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
the problem is that catuba is implying that mothers should be able to firce 2yo to follow rules without fail. she does not see how unrealistic that is. and if something were to happen between the dog and the child, catuba would place most, if not all, the blame on the child and its mother, whereas, I and other posters, believe the dog owner would be just as much, if not more, at fault.

was naking before - sorry abouthorendous typing. If the dog owner can't control his dog - he shouldn't allow it to be around humans - even if that means not having house guests. he should not be able to say, sure come over, but enter at your own risk. and i really do believe that if the dog attacked the child, the owner (of the dog) would be the one legally responsible for any medical costs, etc.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AkRotts* 
In August we went and stayed with my mil for 2 weeks. She has an older Jack Russel Terrier, who does NOT like kids. *I never had to ask her to put him up.* I ALWAYS knew where he was and was ALWAYS right there to intervene when the babies tried to interact with him. It wasn't easy keeping three VERY active dog loving toddlers away from a dog who didn't like them, but we did it.







I have to admit, it was exhausting, but we made it work. *What really helped was the fact that my fil took the dog everywhere with him. When the babies would start to focus on the dog too much, my fil would put him outside for a while,* which gave him a little break and gave us time to get the babies focused on something else.

I just wanted to point out that your FIL was considerate of you and the dog. He was acting as a responsible dog owner and host should.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Yes but she does not own the dog, so therefore I don't think the responsibility should rest 100 percent on her. That is not fair at all. I guess it just boils down to what your opinion is of the situation I guess. I think personally the dog should be put away for both the safety of the dog and child. But, that is just me, and I know how 2.5 year old children can be, I live with one 24/7, and it is just not possible for some children to control their impulses.

The dog owner is responsible for the dog. Period. If he refuses to put the dog in a safe room for the dog's sake, then he's not being kind to his dog.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizaBear* 
The dog owner in the OP is being careless. Why would he allow his dog to be put into the way of harm (and a rambunctious 2.5-yr old is quite able to inflict harm on a dog), and not be willing to protect this treasured pet ?

Why invite a family with a young child over if he isn't willing to protect his pet?

It baffles me - both as a parent (my kids are 2, 4, and 6 yrs old), and as a dog owner.

ITA!!!

Thank you for this thread. We are going to visit my brother for Christmas, and I need find out what's happening with his two dogs, a puppy who was abused possibly and a dog who used to belong to an older lady. The puppy (at 9-12 mos) barked at me when I quit petting/playing with him and picked up my then 2 mo daughter. She's 19 mos now.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yep. It's the ideas that 2.5 year olds can consistently follow rules, and that it is a doable thing to spend 24/7 monitoring the child and dog together.


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