# Car seats and shopping carts



## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Are most infant carseats designed to be used in shopping carts (meaning they click or somehow attach safely to the front part/seat/top of a grocery cart)??

I have come to really hate the carseat i bought for our foster baby...it was a quick purchase, i ran to walmart and bought the seat on our way to the agency to get the baby. So i didnt do alot of research. The seat i bought is by Safety 1st, was about $70 (i'm having a hard time finding it listed at walmart.com)....after i started using it, i realized in the directions it says it cannot be used in shopping carts, and in practice thats very true. There is no way to safely place this seat in the upper part of a shopping cart. The seat either doesnt fit at all (there isnt any little clips/slots that would slide over the metal back part of the cart seat like my older son's infant seat had), or it fits but the seat is pitched so far forward that it doesnt seem safe (and i have to practically hold onto the seat the whole time anyway, since it isnt attached in any way to the cart.)

So i end up having to put the seat in the body of the cart....which is fine if i'm just browsing, but impossible if i actually need to do grocery shopping, as the only space i'm left with is the basket/front seat of the cart, or the lower part (which isnt practical for small items)....my son went shopping with me, pushing an extra cart, and even he said "You'd never be able to do this without me!"

Of course wearing the baby is an option, and i have done that, but sometimes he's asleep in the carseat, or he has just eaten (when i wear him after he's taken a bottle he usually ends up puking all over me, i think its the pressure of tummy to tummy with a full belly)....

Is this typical of new carseats...? I see moms all the time in the store with their infant carseats looking very secure in the top part of the cart....did an idiot design this seat?! I also have a hard time fitting it in many restaurant booths, i dont know if that is also typical of new carseats. Overall i've developed a hatred for this seat and regret buying it. I think as soon as the baby is big enough and can also sit up on his own (which will make it easier in restaurants, etc), i'm switching to a convertible.

Katherine


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

There are only one or two car seats on the market right now that specifically state in their manual it is ok to place them on a shopping cart. Defer to your owners manual. With that said, some CRS manufacturers side step the issue entirely and say something like "Do so at your own risk" or words to that effect in their manual, which I think is dangerous and irresponsible. We recommend placing the baby in the basket portion of the cart. Personally I recommend a sling or carrier instead of leaving them in their car seat. This is of coarse if the parent is physically able to do so. Infant carriers *primary* function is as a child restraint for a motor vehicle.

DC


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

(I was not aware that ANY crs allowed being placed in the top of a shopping cart, thanks, DC for clearing that up. Do you know which brands?)

OP, as a general rule, that's not a recommended and completely unsafe thing to do.

Infant seats are great in terms of being able to load them up in the house when it is cold out and then take them outside all warm and toasty without having to mess around in the cold air. But they really aren't meant or designed for use outside the car. Prolonged use of an infant seat for a newborn, even one who passes a car seat test in the NICU, can cause lowered oxygenation saturation. It's also really lousy for their backs.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I just think its crazy...i wouldnt mind a "do at your own risk" kind of thing, just to cover their backsides. That would be fine, if it was essentially safe but they couldnt "guarantee" that it was safe (meaning, the seat fit fine, and didnt seem ready to fall off)....but this dang seat doesnt even fit. Its horribly impractical....most moms dont take someone with them to shop, to push an extra cart. And its difficult and uncomfortable to put the baby in and out of the carseat (the stupid latch , rather than having each side piece click into the buckle separately, has you instead have to lay one side piece precisely on top of the other one and then click them into the top of the buckle together. Then you have to push *really* hard to get the whole thing unbuckled...grrrr....)...if he is sleeping or otherwise content, i'd rather skip all of that, run in, get my groceries, and be on my way. i guess soon enough he'll be ready to actually sit in the cart (he's almost three months, hopefully in the next couple of months he'll be sitting up well, he's already got good head control).....i always bring the mei tai in with us just in case, but i'm not going to wake a sleeping baby to carry him.

this will teach me to do my research before buying a seat!







:

Katherine


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

I generally consider it to be totally unsafe, all that weight precariously perched on the front of a cart seems like a bad idea to me, especially the heavier weight buckets. I believe certain seat manufacturers, Combi and Chicco, I think, make their seats specifically not to sit on top of carts, I could be wrong though.

I'm still amazed people have children who stay asleep in the carseats for more than a minute and a half after the car stops moving.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 

OP, as a general rule, that's not a recommended and completely unsafe thing to do.

I'm not getting it....not to be argumentative, but how is it a "completely unsafe" thing to do....more unsafe than a child sitting in a cart? Even if the carseat is reclined and clicked onto or somehow attached to the cart? We arent talking running through the store at top speed, just regular shopping. What exactly do you envision happening? In all my years of shopping, i have never had a cart tip over, nor witness a cart tip over (unless you count perhaps a child playing on an empty cart and intentionally trying to tip it)....even if someone rammed you with their cart (again, never happened to me), if the seat was clipped onto the cart, it would very likely remain attached...so not any more unsafe than if your six month old was seatbelted in the seat/basket and someone hit you. At this point, it looks like the only completely safe thing to do would be to stay at home all the time, and thats not practical.

Katherine


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

It's not secure. Tipping over the cart (which having something that compact and heavy on top can do and has done,) can and will easily send the seat flying on impact.

This is a SAFETY item, not a CONVENIENCE item. You don't use SAFETY items in a way that they are not tested or designed to do.

Car seat manufacturers don't make seats so people can perch them on top of shopping carts. They are NOT designed to do that. They are designed to protect children in cars. Period.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Friday13th* 
I generally consider it to be totally unsafe, all that weight precariously perched on the front of a cart seems like a bad idea to me, especially the heavier weight buckets. I believe certain seat manufacturers, Combi and Chicco, I think, make their seats specifically not to sit on top of carts, I could be wrong though.

argh...computer ate my first reply.

I think your logic is flawed. Carts are designed not to tip.....how is it any safer to have a three yr old, or a bunch of heavy groceries in the front basket? I've seen lots and lots of such scenarios (kids, carseats, heavy groceries)in the front part of carts in the many years i've been grocery shopping, and never once have i EVER seen a cart just randomly flip over. If the carseat is connected/clipped to the cart, then its not "precarious" at all...its fairly stable. (what i find precarious is those scary flimsy carseat slings some restaurants have to hold carseats that dont fit in the booth)....but i guess most carseats no longer have this feature, so its a moot point.

Also...i would hope most parents stay right by their carts if their kids are in them....so if there were some random freak accident where the cart magically flipped over, the parent would be right there to help.

Quote:

I'm still amazed people have children who stay asleep in the carseats for more than a minute and a half after the car stops moving.
Hmmm....with my son (who is 11), and now this foster babe, they've always slept when they are tired, no matter where they were.










Katherine


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 

I've seen lots and lots of such scenarios (kids, carseats, heavy groceries)in the front part of carts in the many years i've been grocery shopping, and never once have i EVER seen a cart just randomly flip over.

You do realize that just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that kids haven't gotten seriously hurt, right?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I've seen a woman accidentally ram her cart into something and the car seat fell out. I don't think the danger is from the cart tipping. I think it is from somebody knocking the car seat or ramming the cart.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 

Car seat manufacturers don't make seats so people can perch them on top of shopping carts. They are NOT designed to do that. They are designed to protect children in cars. Period.

Then they should stop manufacturing accessories that act like they should be anywhere but in the car (like stroller combos), and they shouldnt have handles for carrying, quite frankly(convertibles dont, after all). Do you have statistics on how many carseats have gone flying off of grocery carts? I'm not saying it has *never* happened, but must be quite rare considering i've never seen it happen, nor heard of it happening to anyone i know. I think this opinion is extreme.









Doesnt matter to me, our carseat doesnt fit in the top seat at all really, unlike apparently everyone else i see in the store.

Katherine


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## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

I've seen carts flip twice. Both were just freak accidents. I think I've just been the unlucky witness.

The first had a kid standing in the basket portion. The kid shifted his weight and the cart landed on its side.
The second had an infant carseat on top. They were going out to the car. The cart hit a tiny rock and the hole thing just flipped forward, like a mountain biker going over the handle bars.

I never would have imagined they were unstable, but they definitely are. I think its that there is supposed to be weight in the bottom of the basket. When the center of gravity shifts bad things can happen.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
You do realize that just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that kids haven't gotten seriously hurt, right?

No i thought if i had never heard of it it was impossible.









I'm talking about statistical probability. We all weigh the pros and cons of everything we do....cost vs benefit. Before i make a decision to assume that it is completely horribly unsafe to have a baby in a carseat in a cart, i'd like to base that decision on some facts. If you can give me some statistics that say it is a common "likely to happen" occurrence, then that is important info to me. Your criteria for gauging safety might be different than mine. Thats fine.

Katherine


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I am obligated to stick with CPST recommendations. You can do whatever you want.

Car seats are for cars. Occasionally, they are manufactured and tested with strollers. They are not manufactured and tested with grocery carts. If you want to use your child as a crash-test dummy, it is certainly your right.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Car seats are for cars....GREAT article in Mothering mag.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...car-seats.html


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Most of the stores around here have signs by the shopping carts that say not to put the infant seats on top.


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

I pushed the cart over when I was 4 and my brother(2yo) was sitting in the regular metal seat with the strap and was amazingly unscathed but carts are easily tipped over that is for sure........


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

The AAP used to have a warning against using seats on top of carts b/c so many injuries happened that way. I'll see if I can find it, it used to be on their carseat reccomendation page. It's not safe. Putting groceries in the bottom of the cart where it's lower to the ground is one thing, placing a baby on top of a cart giving the cart even less stability is another. There is nothing on the cart, even if clipped in that has been shown to keep the carseat on the cart in case it does flip. It could just fly right off. I just don't see the need to risk it. Sometimes we all have to be inconvenienced, either w/ being puked on or waking baby or just not having as much room to shop. If you're 11yo is w/ you, have 2 carts or maybe you just need to wait to all the big shopping till you have someone else w/ you or someone can watch the baby. http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases...oppingcart.htm


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks for the links...ive been trying to find this info for a stubborn friend! :_


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Does your store provide carts with an infant insert? Our does. They are bolted on and go to 19lbs. I realize tipping is still a risk, but these are much lighter than a regular car seat, being designed for carts. You may have to look or ask for them... our grocery store stores them in a completely different place than the regular carts. I realize this doesn't solve the convienience issue, but it is a comprimise.


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

Shopping cart injuries are so prevalent that the AAP even has a policy statement about the issue:

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases...oppingcart.htm

Every time I install an infant bucket for new or expectant parents, I offer my professional advice that they should NEVER place the infant seat on the top of a shopping cart. The AAP goes a step further and says no child should ever ride in a shopping cart, unless it is specifically re-designed (like the ones that have the low-to-the ground plastic seats on them). That's a pretty strong statement from a huge governing body like the AAP, and for good reason - they see far too many serious injuries from our current practice of allowing babies and children to ride in the cart.

I know after reading that, I'm going to think twice before putting my own toddler in the cart.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't see why it would be unsafe.

All the stores around here have 'convenience' carts with pseudo car seats attached to the top (much higher than a bucket being placed there).

If it was really that unsafe - wouldn't the store's lawyers demand those be removed? Seriously - most big stores are ruled by profits and a baby being injured by a cart tipping over would end in a rather large settlement.

So I don't buy the whole tipping shopping cart paranoia.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I don't see why it would be unsafe.

All the stores around here have 'convenience' carts with pseudo car seats attached to the top (much higher than a bucket being placed there).

If it was really that unsafe - wouldn't the store's lawyers demand those be removed? Seriously - most big stores are ruled by profits and a baby being injured by a cart tipping over would end in a rather large settlement.

So I don't buy the whole tipping shopping cart paranoia.

Did you read ANY of the links posted here?


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Did you read ANY of the links posted here?

Did you read my post?

There are 3 major chain stores near us which have built in seats on the top of car seats...

Do you dispute that?

Do you dispute that if those were dangerous they would cause the store financial hardships and be removed?

There are people out there than can make a padded room dangerous. That doesn't mean all padded rooms are dangerous.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

As far as the liability issue... I doubt the *store* would be financially responsible. The shopping cart manufacturer might be, but you'd have to be able to PROVE that you used the shopping cart precisely as the warnings on the cart indicate you should. And for relatively minor injuries, a lawsuit won't do much good anyway; we're not talking about maiming children generally... we're talking about bumps on the noggin and possibly dislocated or broken bones. In the case of using a carseat on top of the shopping cart, we're *also* talking about potential hidden damage to the seat that could make it unsafe in a crash, but try proving it.

The thing about personal injury lawsuits is that you really have to be able to demonstrate lasting damage. *Most* of the accidents that involve shopping carts won't be able to do that, even though they'll be really awful experiences for the parents and children involved.

And then... if it's the cart manufacturer that holds the liability, not the store, then the store will demand the products that they want for their customers' convenience, and the cart companies get to decide whether it's "worth it" to provide them in spite of potential liability issues. If you'll pay out maybe a $200k settlement every couple of years when a child gets a badly broken bone from your shopping cart, but in the meantime you're raking in several million in annual sales on that model... well? What are you going to do?

It's pretty obvious to me that, whether it "fits" or not, baby buckets shouldn't be perched on top of shopping carts, for a few reasons:

* Carts already can tip over, and this makes them really topheavy.

* The seat can be knocked off from a point much higher than you'd normally ever place it.

* There are dozens of styles of shopping carts. No carseat manufacturer has the time and resources to test out their baby bucket with ALL of them and determine whether it's safe or not, or how to make it safe.

We never used a bucket with our DS, so yeah, he was awakened to be put in the Maya sometimes, and other times he stayed asleep for the transfer. I did try to time shopping etc. trips so that I wouldn't have to wake him when we got out of the car, though. I usually had a book or something with me, so that I could hang out in the car until he woke up on his own too. IOW... I know that it's 100% feasible to live without putting the baby bucket in the shopping cart. ;-)


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Did you read my post?

There are 3 major chain stores near us which have built in seats on the top of car seats...

Do you dispute that?

Do you dispute that if those were dangerous they would cause the store financial hardships and be removed?

There are people out there than can make a padded room dangerous. That doesn't mean all padded rooms are dangerous.

One of the reasons baby buckets are dangerous is because of the weight. Those baby seats are made of foam and very light, therefore making it a lot LESS likely to cause the cart to tip.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

From what I have read, the cart makers started making the carts with the part-of-the-cart seats on there to keep people from clipping their own seats on to their carts that weren't designed for that. They want you to use the "built in" or "built ON" seat because the cart was designed to have it there, unlike the normal carts that weren't designed to have something clipped on there.

And I've seen so many people who don't even clip their seat on, they just place it there, or to the side in the seat area, it's just horrible to see.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I never put my infant seat in the top part of the cart. It doesnt click in and just doesnt feel sturdy at all. I always put it in the big part and piled groceries around it.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

The AAP has a policy for family bed and vaccinations too, I'm sure. Doesnt mean i'm going to automatically listen to them. I would need to look at the statistics very carefully to see what the exact circumstances were that caused the injury. For example, if the injury was caused by an infant seat falling from the cart....was the infant seat clicked on/attached or merely sitting on top of the cart. Thats important info. (I'm sure the AAP has statistics for how many kids die in adult beds each year, and yet the circumstances of each case are important in determining the cause of death, and whether the average cosleeping child is at risk.)

I was at BRU yesterday, and looked at some of their infant seats....it looks like they do not "click" onto the cart (which would probaby be a very simple design modification that would not at all affect the performance of the seat in the car)....and yet all have these weird slots that make it seem like they *should* "click on" or rest on a cart, but they dont. While i was there, i noticed a mom struggling with her infant seat, trying to make it fit and confused why it wouldnt.

That to me is more dangerous than actually designing the dang seat to fit on carts, when MOST people do use the seat in this manner at some point during the duration of their infant seat use. If they dont want to encourage this use, then they shouldnt have those weird almost-fits-but-not-quite slots....not sure about all seats, but on mine, those slots serve no purpose when its actually clipped into the base in the car. The carseat manufacturers could still cover their butts by recommending they not be used in this manner, but i truly dont see the difference in having slots there that actually work vs ones that dont, except if they worked children would be safer.

Quote:

If you want to use your child as a crash-test dummy, it is certainly your right.








: *Really* unnecessary and snarky.

My son nearly fell out of a baby sling when he was an infant, when the ring snapped in half. If that happened to me, i'm sure its happened to someone else. There ARE risks to almost everything we do in life, its a matter of weighing cost vs. benefit.

And as i *thought* i made clear in my initial post (i guess not), i dont place the infant seat in the top of the cart BECAUSE IT DOES NOT FIT. That was the whole freakin' point of my post, actually.

Katherine


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
That to me is more dangerous than actually designing the dang seat to fit on carts, when MOST people do use the seat in this manner at some point during the duration of their infant seat use.

And just how do you propose the seat designers should design their seats to be safely used with shopping carts? There are dozens of types of carts made of different materials, with slightly different dimensions. Cars have to conform to very specific standards in seat, belt, and LATCH design; shopping carts are not anywhere near as regulated. Even if they tried, not *every* seat would work with *every* cart, and no one is going to read the shopping cart manual before they start their trip.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
If they dont want to encourage this use, then they shouldnt have those weird almost-fits-but-not-quite slots....not sure about all seats, but on mine, those slots serve no purpose when its actually clipped into the base in the car.

As I understand it, those slots are for compatibility with specific strollers and stroller frames. Yes, maybe they should *completely* redesign how the seat fits onto strollers to avoid the confusion, but maybe that's just the safest way to do it.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

I will never, ever, EVER place a car seat on the top of the shopping car, and I really prefer my kids don't ride there. Usually DD is in the back and DS is on my back, but occasionally I have to put one of them in there.

My mom is a manager at Costco and someone came up to her and was talking to her while a newborn baby slept in her car seat on top of the cart. Another person came by and bumped the cart, it flipped and the baby landed head first (concrete floor) and had a massive bump and bruise on her head. The baby had to go to the ER and get checked out and ended up being fine, the last I heard. For those wondering, Costco was not liable for it.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
My mom is a manager at Costco and someone came up to her and was talking to her while a newborn baby slept in her car seat on top of the cart. Another person came by and bumped the cart, it flipped and the baby landed head first (concrete floor) and had a massive bump and bruise on her head. The baby had to go to the ER and get checked out and ended up being fine, the last I heard. For those wondering, Costco was not liable for it.

Poor baby.









was the mother standing far from the cart?

Was the carseat attached to the cart in any way or did the carseat actually leave the cart and land on the ground?

Scary.

Katherine


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
I will never, ever, EVER place a car seat on the top of the shopping car, and I really prefer my kids don't ride there. Usually DD is in the back and DS is on my back, but occasionally I have to put one of them in there.

My mom is a manager at Costco and someone came up to her and was talking to her while a newborn baby slept in her car seat on top of the cart. Another person came by and bumped the cart, it flipped and the baby landed head first (concrete floor) and had a massive bump and bruise on her head. The baby had to go to the ER and get checked out and ended up being fine, the last I heard. For those wondering, Costco was not liable for it.


THATS why I would never put an infant seat on a cart. I could never live with myself if somethign like that happened. My son (still at 2) rides in an Ergo while i food shop...much faster for me.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Poor baby.









was the mother standing far from the cart?

Was the carseat attached to the cart in any way or did the carseat actually leave the cart and land on the ground?


See to me it doesn't matter (and w/ that much weight falling that fast, I doubt mom could've stopped it from happening anyway). The baby fell and hurt itself from being in a place he had no business being. I know our carts around here have warnings on them to NOT place infant seats on them. Yes, I'm sure the AAP has things against co-sleeping and vaxing as well, but there is research out there showing both are safe options. You will not find research out there saying that putting a carseat on top of a shopping cart is a good and reccomended idea. Just like there is no research out there showing not using a carseat is good or ffing too early.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Poor baby.









was the mother standing far from the cart?

Was the carseat attached to the cart in any way or did the carseat actually leave the cart and land on the ground?

Scary.

Katherine

This is what I remember, from when my mom told me about it, the day it happened. The mother was standing there and turned sideways to talk to my mom, but had her hand on the cart. I don't know if the seat was strapped in it in anyway, but I doubt that it was. The car seat did fall out and the baby stayed in the harness, but her head went forward and hit the concrete, the seat was completely upside down.


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

i'll admit we did it occasionally. really though, most carts have been made to where the seat will no longer click in right, you have to kind of perch it unsteadily there if you want to put it there, and thats even more unsafe. we didnt do it often, but i know our seat didnt fit in the carts at walmart, target, sams,the commissary, and i think the PX too. and those are only the ones i remember off the top of my head. i think graco changed their seats too, because while my snugride didnt fit in the seat at walmart, i saw evenflo seats that did.


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