# What is so wrong with "good job"??



## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I am one who is supportive of compliments, encouragement and praise. I've read so many posts that are against this and I really do not understand why. I get the idea that a generic "good job" isn't really effective and that specific praise is much better, along with specific feedback in general, but I have such a hard time picturing a parenting style that doesn't genuinely celebrate and recognize achievement, no matter how small. When my dd does something new or challenging, I get excited and I tell her.

I know we do not want our children performing only to please mom and dad, we want the motivation to be intrinsic. But, aren't human beings also innately programed to want to please and to be recognized for their abilities, achievements and special qualities?

Are there studies that support non-praise? Who are the big opponents to praise other than Alfie Kohn? (I think I spelled his name wrong.)


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

I think "Good Job" and similar comments are something that come pretty automatically because we are all used to it from when we were kids. I think the problem is that by itself can be a rather empty comment. If it is said to often with no further connections, it doesn't do much to promote feelings of self worth, can feel random, and some argue that it builds dependance on outside praise. (It makes me think of my ,mil and the phrase, "be careful" which is used constantly with no connection to what my dd is actually doing... it sort of becomes white noise!) If, however, you couple it with specific reference to what is "good," i.e. "Good Job, I see you have been working very hard to add details to your horse picture," then I think it becomes far more valuable as praise, and a child starts to build feelings of self-worth in him/herself (wow, mom was right, I did put a lot more work into this picture and it does have more detail) Just my opinion


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

By the way, I'm to far out of teaching school to remember specific studies. I worked in a preschool that was big into "High Scope" (you can google "High Scope Preschool" and "Praise" for more specific articles and points) which specifically addressed the praise thing as a teaching tool, and it was my understanding (as a para) that "good job" by itself was generally frowned upon. I didn't understand the point at first either, but when I saw the more targeted praise in action, it made more sense.


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## mummyofan (Jun 25, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with general praise.
If a parent or carer can pepper in some specific praise (good job drawing... I especially like the........ bit in it) or whatever, just sometimes, but not so that you're stressed or worried about it; that would defeat the purposes. Children sense stress. If you're worried about how to do it then stick with what you know!

TRYING not to sound all 'know it all'......I say this all with experience of 15+ years in the 'field' but I'm not going to go into it all here (that would take a long old time!!) and I'm sure others have advice to impart. but that is my opinion, professional and personal.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I totally got this one day when my dh said "good job" to me and it almost felt like he was taking some of the credit. I would have preferred to hear a different kind of compliment that was completely me and showed he was really listening or paying attention like "you knew just what to say" or whatever. If you really pay attention to how you feel when you try to find a different compliment you may be surprised. I feel myself wanting to boast in my kids accomplishments and saying "good job" for some reason puts some of the credit back on me. When I say "you have used a lot of colors in that picture!" or "do you like your picture? Good!" It totally removes me from any of the credit and I almost feel a let down because I really want to take pride in my kids but I can sense this way is not optimal for them.
This might not make any sense and I do still say "good job" without thinking about it. My kids would rather I take the time to really see and comment on what they have accomplished I think.


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## sunshadow (May 17, 2009)

I read 'Unconditional Parenting' and it gave the reasons for not saying 'good job'. So, I gave it up. My daughter is only two and this was a few months ago. She was clearly upset that I didn't tell her good job, so I stopped worry about it. Though I try to say "You did it." instead more often. I also noticed how often other people say good job to her too. I figured it wouldn't be the end of the world if I said it to her and also explained that she doesn't need to hear it.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

I really don't think "Good Job" is a big deal, but I agree with the PP who said you should try to make it specific, instead of just saying it to say something.

My son is 8, and has heard Good Job in various forms throughout his life. He still managed to grow up into a great kid with a healthy self-esteem who isn't afraid to try new things out.


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## lavender_mama (May 11, 2009)

As a Montessori teacher I was trained that "good job" put a value on the child's work and to say "I like that" instead. Kids naturally want to please their parents and teachers. "Good job" is a value while "I like that" is just an opinion, and it leaves them free to form their own opinions as well.

I also think "good job" sounds a little condescending, but that's just a personal thing.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

<shrug> Doesn't bother me in the least when people tell me I've done a good job with something.

It's in our "praise vocabulary" with our kids and I see nothing wrong with it. I also don't have a problem with making judgements about some things, which I guess makes me different than most here.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

My dh and I had a loooong discussion about "good job" when dc was tiny and we concluded that it's a fine thing to say... if the person you're praising is doing a "job". And we think a "job" is something that you're doing because someone else wants you to, not because you want to, ykwim? For instance, putting away the dishes because your mother asked you to is a "job". Reading a book because you're interested in the story is not a "job".

We value intrinsic motivation for learning very highly, and I think saying "good job" often can really undermine that. It takes the kid's focus off their thoughts and feelings about what they're doing and focuses it on the adult's opinion, instead. I noticed this especially when dc was a toddler and we visited friends who "good job"bed him to death. Every time they said it (which was like about every 2 minutes!) he looked up to see what they were talking about and shifted his focus away from the activity and onto them, then back again. And as a consequence, didn't get very far with what he was trying to do.

So I'm not against saying "good job" _ever_, and I do say it once in a while myself, but infrequently enough that it has particular meaning and isn't just the general positive reinforcement catchphrase that lots of people use it as. For all the little daily things other parents say "good job" to, I'm more likely to say, "look at _that_!" or "you did it!" Something that shows dc I notice and take joy in his accomplishments, without putting a tick in the "good" column or the "job" column--both of which are unneccesary to give him the kind of attention he craves and the encouragement to keep on going. Does that make sense? It's early, lol.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lavender_mama* 
As a Montessori teacher I was trained that "good job" put a value on the child's work and to say "I like that" instead. Kids naturally want to please their parents and teachers. "Good job" is a value while "I like that" is just an opinion, and it leaves them free to form their own opinions as well.

I also think "good job" sounds a little condescending, but that's just a personal thing.

I think there is value in doing good work, so I see nothing wrong with praising it.

I'm fine with saying "good job," etc. While I love some of Kohn's work, in particular about homework, I disagree completely about this issue.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

I think people who have a problem with praise are...well nevermind. Everyone needs to know and HEAR that what they are doing is correct and right. I grew up in a house that lacked praise and it was and still is very hurtful. I seem to, as an adult, seek praise from everyone around me in anyway I can get it, negative or positive.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I am one who is supportive of compliments, encouragement and praise. I've read so many posts that are against this and I really do not understand why. I get the idea that a generic "good job" isn't really effective and that specific praise is much better, along with specific feedback in general, but I have such a hard time picturing a parenting style that doesn't genuinely celebrate and recognize achievement, no matter how small.

I think the point of it is to match your level to your child's. Giving specific feedback at first lets them respond with how they're feeling about the act - was it hard, did it take a long time, was it boring...
It's perfectly fine and wonderful to be happy for your child's achievements, but letting them lead the way lets them set the tone - not you. It teaches them to own their accomplishments instead of looking to see how their accomplishments are perceived by others, and basing their response off of that.

Giving specific feedback lets them see that you really do care, too, and aren't just offering lip service. "You looked like you were getting frustrated but you finished the puzzle" shows them that you saw the steps they were taking, the dedication they had at that moment. "Good job" doesn't really offer the same level of intimacy.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

It's really interesting. If you want a different look at praise I find the section (and story) about praise in How to Talk So Kids will Listen and Listen So Kids will Talk to be a really unforgettable one. (A family's driving down the highway in a tunnel and the mom praises the kids for their behaviour and suddenly one kid dumps the ashtray so there's ashes all over the car... and later it turns out he was having Bad Thoughts and the praise made him feel so lousy he acted out.)

For me, generic praise rings pretty hollow. We use "thank you" when we're just appreciating things (or specifically, like "Thanks for dusting that, that's a big help today.")

And praise designed specifically to lead to a specific behaviour sometimes rings hollow to me too although I'm not above specific observations like "wow, that was a really nice trip to the grocery store. I had a really good time." (Meaning: you did not pitch a fit.) I think it's this last that Alfie Kohn is suspicious about and I kind of agree with him although I'm not really into absolutes. When praise becomes a reward for good behaviour, the relationship becomes transactional. And although of course any relationship does have give and take in it, I don't really want my son to learn that my appreciation is the "gold star" for good behaviour in a dispensing tokens kind of way.

I also think it is important for kids to be given the space to develop intrinsic motivation, and sometimes that means letting them sit in the space where there isn't immediate external feedback, even if that space is not always comfortable for everyone.

I certainly grew up in a home where being "good" was praised and I did become very suspicious about it and also in some ways a praise junkie - something I struggle with at work, still. I have watched my parents treat my son the same way and noticed him change his behaviour around them in order to get more praise. I think that's fine in short bursts but I wouldn't want him to be doing that all the time at home.

All that said though I love to share real delight in and with my son. From the outside that might look the same, but I think between us we have it worked out vaguely ok.


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## hypnoticsymphony (Aug 18, 2009)

Encouragement is an important part of any relationship. I think the greatest achievement in itself knowing my encouragement to my kids gets them far.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think Kohn makes WAY too big a deal out of this one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
Giving specific feedback lets them see that you really do care, too, and aren't just offering lip service. "You looked like you were getting frustrated but you finished the puzzle" shows them that you saw the steps they were taking, the dedication they had at that moment. "Good job" doesn't really offer the same level of intimacy.

It doesn't have to be either-or, though. We don't have to avoid "good job" in order to express our presence and connection with our kids. For instance, "Wow! Awesome job! You were getting frustrated, but you really stuck with it!"







:

Blankly spouting "good job" is pretty meaningless, yes. But inserting "good job", and similar phrasing, into meaningful converstation is fine, imo. I get the intrinsic/extrinsic motivation argument, but I don't buy it. Young children are wired to seek to please their caregivers, and that is a good thing. This changes as kids grow and develop, and that is a good thing, too. My 2 yo will beam with simple joy at my "good job!", but my 8 yo is much less affected. She still wants my praise and approval, of course, but has more complex needs.

Also, even if we remove "good job" and the like completely, we can't (and shouldn't, I would argue) remove our value judgments. Kids are perceptive; they can read our expressions, our body language, and our attitudes. We aren't neutral with regards to our dc's behaviors, so why pretend to be?


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## baglady (Jul 13, 2009)

I too had issues with this idea when reading UP. My experience with praise comes from teaching high school. My students would raise their hands, jump up and down, yell, anything to get attention to let me know they had gotten a question correct or to show me something they were proud of. They would even tell me about their accomplishments from other classes. They wanted the praise. Seriously, do you want to make a high school kids day? Then put a sticker on their quiz; they love it. That one really shocked me. I thought they were way to old for it. I mean maybe they had been conditioned to need praise, I don't know.

I can see the point in trying to be specific in praise, but I can't believe that humans are wired not to want/need any praise. Let's say it's a total social construct, and I do a perfect job of never uttering a "good job" as my son ages (too late LOL). He goes to play at a friends house one day, and hears the friend's mom praising something her child has done. How does that make DS feel about my lack of praise? I don't know; praise is such an ingrained part of the human condition now. I don't think we can get away without it to some extent. I will try really hard to be specific when I use it.

I don't know. I'll start a college fund and a therapy fund, because it's impossible to get it perfect, right?


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I think there are just SO many other ways to praise a kid, that saying "good job" seems kind of like a cop out. I mean, if I can't come up with anything better/more interesting/more descriptive to say, it's probably because I don't care that much about what it is I'm seeing.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I think there are other, more constructive ways of praising. I try to be specific about what it is I think they did well.

ie. If my son draws a picture, I'll say something like "I like how you made both outfits have a little bit of red. And I like the expression on her face! She looks like she's really happy."


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I thought Jenn made a great point (as you often do, Jenn!) In the situations where I feel it's most appropriate to say "good job"... it's usually even more appropriate to just say "thank you".


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Alfie Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so what he's talking about is the use of praise as a behavioral tool. He is not not trying to get parents to stop expressing genuine appreciation.

Praise is often used as a behavioral tool. More so when I was a kid - the trend does seem to be shifting a bit - but still to some extent. The idea was that every time you saw a kid do anything you liked, you'd say, "good job!" with the hope that the child would do it again. The other side was to ignore behavior you didn't like, or say something negative about it, so your gave constant carrots for good behavior even if you never gave a stick for bad behavior, and in doing so you would shape your child's behavior for the better. Kohn feels that kind of empty praise can make children think your love for them is tied to when they do things you like.

He is not talking about genuine appreciation, as in, "Wow! I loved listening to your song!" He's talking about, "Good singing!", "Good eating!" "Good standing!" "Good pooping in the potty!" "Good sharing!" "Good jumping!". That kind of thing, often done almost continually through the day.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

This is my honest opinion... if we are the point of critically evaluating a comment like "good job"... then we are over-analyzing parenting and need to just chill. Seriously! There are a million other issues with children that we need to be concentrating on rather than if "good job" is a traumatic and disturbing aspect of our parenting. Have we micromanaged parenting down to the very essence of HOW we praise our children? Ugh!

ETA: I don't say "good job" because it's just not something I say. I actually usually say "Bravo!", but in this context it's the same.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Here's a great article on generic praise vs. observation : The Power (and Peril) of Praising Your Kids. There's 5 pages worth reading about how different types of observation helped children, and how generic praise hurts self esteem.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Human beings create meaning. It's an essential part of what makes us human. And one of our primary ways of doing that is through language. Words matter. Word choice matters. "Good job" and "bravo" _don't_ mean the same thing (if they did... we wouldn't have different words for them!) The specific words we use and how we use them send a powerful message to our children about how the world is constructed and what we think is important. So why on earth wouldn't we critically evaluate our language?

IME, the "protesting too much" syndrome crops up when somebody wants to deny that something matters, because _they_ don't want to have to critically evaluate their own lifestyle and choices. I can't count how many times I've been told I "think too much" when I talk about why we nursed full term, co-slept, don't vax, etc.

I happen to think *everything* about how I parent matters, and that critical thought is key to a full and joyous life. Others, of course, are free to disagree.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

You think "good job!: is bad...you should come to my house and watch me treat my DD like she is a dog.







"Come, come on, awesome, give it to me, GOOD GIRL!!!" - it's ridiculous.

I try so hard to keep it to a minimum with the "good girl"....but the fact is, it's an intensly hard habit to break for me, as I have spent years before she came along training our lady dogs to perfection. My pack is my life...so, before kids, THEY were my kids and every day all day I trained them to listen to me, come, stay, etc...they are marvelous animals and we love them so much...since our DD came, she has sort of melted into them...SHE LOVES THEM TO PIECES. THe three of them, little 8 lbs shih tzu and a 10lbs mutt...both of them sweet as heaven, and my little scallywag baby girl...they are inseperable...they roll around together, they snack together, they hike together....our dogs are with us 24/7 and they are like her sisters...so, when I call the dogs, I'm usually also calling my DD and it just sort of comes out as "come come!" - and they all come scampering to me! When my lady dogs do a great trick or listen to me the first time, whatever else...it's "good girl" and so, when my 15 mos old tugs her own shoes on or throws on her shirt all by herself....it's so hard to stop "good girl!" from slipping out and most of the time, to be perfectly honest, it does.

I don't want her to grow up doing things because she wants to please me...I lived that way as a kid and I don't want it for her...so I have been trying to curtail it and turn to more constructive praise "That is NICE!!!" or "You did it by yourself, cool, high five!" - but it's hard not to scoop her up and squeeze her and laugh out "good girl!" - I'm deeply, contagiously and emphatically in love with this little cherry blossom...she is the light of my universe and I love to praise her, joyously and with passion, as I watch her doing all of these incredible new things....she rocks my world, she absolutely lights me on fire....it's so hard not to just let it slip...now that she can climb and is talking, she can run, figured out how to carry things in a bag, which she slings over her shoulder...she rocks and it's super superhard for me to think before I speak...but I'll get there.

In the meantime....my kid is adored, played with, had free roam of a "kid safe" house and spends her days making things, making messed, eating awesome food and being snuggled and read to. There is no one in her life who is not SICK...I mean ILL...with love for her...and as far as I can see, there are worse fates for a kid in this world. We will try to stop the vague praises, we will try to incoporate more contstructive praises into her life...but in the meantime, she knows that we are her biggest fans and are so proud of all her little baby girl accomplishments!!







:


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is my honest opinion... if we are the point of critically evaluating a comment like "good job"... then we are over-analyzing parenting and need to just chill. .

Bravo!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
He is not talking about genuine appreciation, as in, "Wow! I loved listening to your song!" He's talking about, "Good singing!", "Good eating!" "Good standing!" "Good pooping in the potty!" "Good sharing!" "Good jumping!". That kind of thing, often done almost continually through the day.

Yes, true. But that isn't how it filters down to the parenting discussions, you know? And, really, who does that? (good standing! lol) Most of us are in the middle, and Kohn is talking about two extremes (extreme praise, and extreme avoidance of praise).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Yes, true. But that isn't how it filters down to the parenting discussions, you know? And, really, who does that? (good standing! lol) Most of us are in the middle, and Kohn is talking about two extremes (extreme praise, and extreme avoidance of praise).

Like I said, people don't do it so much NOW, but really in the 70s, and particularly in the 80s, it was really common. And I think what he says about praise is taken out of context too often.

I have actually heard "Good standing!" and "Good rolling!" said to babies. But the other ones are more common.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

My mother-in-law actually said the words "good swinging"... to my 2 year old... who was in a baby swing... being pushed. who was she praising, there?







:


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

I think the relationship behind the phrase is far more important than the phrase itself. Kids who grow up trying to please their parents or others aren't doing it because of a simple phrase "good job," they are doing it because the whole attitude that they are treated with is "do it to make me pleased." Our actions as parents go a lot farther than just the simple words we use with our children, thought the words ARE important. If you say "I love you" but your actions are saying something different, then the kids are NOT going to believe the words, etc. It's the old saying "shut up and DO something."


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## MissyCham (Dec 24, 2002)

Sorry, but I'm in the 'good grief' camp. Speak to your child lovingly in many different ways every day. Whatever is natural to you will get the point across. Spend more time playing with them and less time worrying about how to phrase everything. My two cents ...


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## Birdie B. (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is my honest opinion... if we are the point of critically evaluating a comment like "good job"... then we are over-analyzing parenting and need to just chill. Seriously! There are a million other issues with children that we need to be concentrating on rather than if "good job" is a traumatic and disturbing aspect of our parenting. Have we micromanaged parenting down to the very essence of HOW we praise our children? Ugh!

ETA: I don't say "good job" because it's just not something I say. I actually usually say "Bravo!", but in this context it's the same.

I totally agree.

Off-topic: *AverysMomma*, are you a writer? Do you have a blog or something, cuz I love to read your writing! It makes me grin when you talk about your little girl; I think you perfectly capture the astounding love that overwhelms me when I look at my little sweet potato baby Meadow! I am so damn proud of her and I love her so much, and I will tell her that every day of her precious little life, Alfie Kohn be damned!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is my honest opinion... if we are the point of critically evaluating a comment like "good job"... then we are over-analyzing parenting and need to just chill. Seriously! There are a million other issues with children that we need to be concentrating on rather than if "good job" is a traumatic and disturbing aspect of our parenting. Have we micromanaged parenting down to the very essence of HOW we praise our children? Ugh!









:


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Yeah, I think most of the conversations about avoiding "good job" stem from two things:

1. Avoiding over-praising, where every little thing is praised and it becomes meaningless or the child expects to be praised for everything. And I agree with other PPs, this is not so much of a problem now as it was in the past, though it vary based on your location/family/etc.

2. Trying to use more appropriate or specific phrases instead of all or nearly all general praise. I think general praise is fine sometimes, but it's good to make an effort at times to say something more specific as it forces you to really pay attention and give meaningful feedback, especially on something that a child really cares about or has spent a lot of time/effort on.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quinalla* 
Yeah, I think most of the conversations about avoiding "good job" stem from two things:

1. Avoiding over-praising, where every little thing is praised and it becomes meaningless or the child expects to be praised for everything. And I agree with other PPs, this is not so much of a problem now as it was in the past, though it vary based on your location/family/etc.

2. Trying to use more appropriate or specific phrases instead of all or nearly all general praise. I think general praise is fine sometimes, but it's good to make an effort at times to say something more specific as it forces you to really pay attention and give meaningful feedback, especially on something that a child really cares about or has spent a lot of time/effort on.

This is a great post.

I do also agree with PPs who say that we overthink our parenting decisions sometimes, and I think we overthink the praise thing sometimes too. The best thing we can do as parents is to relax and be natural with our kids. At the same time, I think looking at this issue and considering this viewpoint is useful. Not stressing over it or overthinking it, but giving it some consideration.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissyCham* 
Sorry, but I'm in the 'good grief' camp.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I think making a big deal about saying good job is what turns in to a negative thing, I just personally think that many of these new school parenting no-nos are just to make you second guess what you do as a parent(and sell books).

I say good job, my DD is 3 and she's not falling to pieces, I also say I like that and I tell her she's beautiful, if I am screwing up her self esteem I guess that's my bad and some day I may have to pay for her therapy(joking). I just think so much of this is just silly.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

This is so interesting. I dunno the rules here so well yet, so if I should be starting new threads for the following questions feel free to move them to a new thread.... Ok this conversation makes me ask 2 questions:

1) I've never read the literature on this question and I'm wondering, if Kohn and others are concerned that all this praise makes kids think their value is based on pleasing their parents vs. their own accomplishments, what impact does the negative stuff parents do have on this? Like it's hard for me to imagine a child raised with tons of general "Good job!"s not being proud of their accomplishments later in life if the parents are sincere and don't do something negative on top of the good jobs, like withholding praise or being harsh and overly critical when the child does something that doesn't please the parent. Like if you think your son should play with cars but he builds a really cool dollhouse instead, if you say "Good job!" because he built something, isn't that still positive, vs. withholding praise or saying "I'd say good job if you were playing with cars but I'm not gonna say it for this!"?

Just seems like the kids who grow into insecure adults mostly get that way because they either got no praise at all or lots of negative comments/criticisms. Doesn't it take negative or no parent engagement to make kids insecure?

2) I've heard many stories on the news about how employers these days generally hate hiring middle class kids currently in their teens or twenties because they have this huge sense of entitlement. That whereas 20 years ago it was just expected that an employee would do the basics of their job and they mostly only got celebrated when they excelled, now younger employees want to be praised for just doing the bare minimum of their jobs. And apparently many feel like the drive to excel has almost vanished in most of these employees, because they feel like just doing their basic job is such a big accomplishment.

Do you guys think these feelings of employers is somehow connected to the trend of overpraising our kiddies? Or do we not over-do it?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *green betty* 
Human beings create meaning. It's an essential part of what makes us human. And one of our primary ways of doing that is through language. Words matter. Word choice matters. "Good job" and "bravo" _don't_ mean the same thing (if they did... we wouldn't have different words for them!) The specific words we use and how we use them send a powerful message to our children about how the world is constructed and what we think is important. So why on earth wouldn't we critically evaluate our language?

IME, the "protesting too much" syndrome crops up when somebody wants to deny that something matters, because _they_ don't want to have to critically evaluate their own lifestyle and choices. I can't count how many times I've been told I "think too much" when I talk about why we nursed full term, co-slept, don't vax, etc.

I happen to think *everything* about how I parent matters, and that critical thought is key to a full and joyous life. Others, of course, are free to disagree.









I disagree.


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## frogautumn (May 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baglady* 
Seriously, do you want to make a high school kids day? Then put a sticker on their quiz; they love it. That one really shocked me. I thought they were way to old for it.

As someone who taught high school, this totally cracked me up. It's SO true. Make it a scratch and sniff sticker and you'd think it was a major holiday!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
My mother-in-law actually said the words "good swinging"... to my 2 year old... who was in a baby swing... being pushed. who was she praising, there?







:

I think it sometimes comes down to the fact that we want to interact with these beautiful beings so we just TALK and whatever enters our heads, we say. This is what I mean about over-analyzing these things.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I think a kid can tell whether a parent is engaged and paying attention, and the words spoken are secondary to this. A parent can toss off a disinterested, "Wow, look at all those colors" or an engaged, genuine, "Great job!!" just as easily as the other way around. The parent's attitude and mental involvement matter more than the actual words, IMO.

Another poster mentioned saying "I like that" instead of "good job" because it has less of a value judgment. It's interesting how varied people's perspectives on this subject are, because to me saying "I like that" is a huge value judgment, and I'd be much more likely to avoid saying that than to avoid saying "good job." I wouldn't want a kid to think that making _me_ happy is the goal of their artwork or playing or whatever.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I have actually heard "Good standing!" and "Good rolling!" said to babies.

I'm certain I've said the same to my babies when they first demonstrated the skill. It is genuinely exciting!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

The Kohn/anti-praise movement is a response to the 80s overpraise movement.

Likewise, my refusal to evaluate every natural interaction I have with my dc is a response to what _I_ see as overparenting, and _way_ too much pressure for parents (esp mothers) to be perfect. I trust that my dc are resilient enough to thrive in the face of my imperfections. But then, I'm a "big picture" kind of person, and a genuine "good job" just doesn't register from my perspective.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I think it sometimes comes down to the fact that we want to interact with these beautiful beings so we just TALK and whatever enters our heads, we say. This is what I mean about over-analyzing these things.

I have to agree... but I just think it's not so hard to come up with something better than "good swinging"... for instance, my general way of interacting would have been something more like "wheeee! you're swinging, aren't you! Is it fun? *big smiles* you love swinging, don't you?" Which I think is a lot more conversational (like, the kid actually might be learning how to carry on a conversation?) than my telling my child they're "good" at doing something that's actually being done *to* them. I guess my feeling on "good job" "good swinging" whatever, is that it provides a judgment on something that shouldn't necessarily be judged... and beyond that is just like some sort of verbal diarrhea... it's just words automatically coming out. It made me uncomfortable when i realized kids I worked with at the daycare would come over and show me something and the *automatic* response was "good job" (from me)... in a completely thoughtless way. Automatic praise is something that just feels so hollow, I guess. I was just saying it because that's "what you say".

I guess since I started questioning everything else about my life instead of it just being "what you do" (i.e. crib vs. cosleeping, vax vs. no vax, breastfeeding vs. bottlefeeding), doing things because it's just "what you do" feels inauthentic and silly, to me, I guess.

Obviously this is just my feeling on it in my life, but it's started making me feel uncomfortable when people say things like that so mindlessly to my children. YMMV.


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with saying "good job." I am actually baffled by why people find something negative to dwell on when it comes to a positive comment. There is nothing negative about saying good job!
My dh never had a postive word come from his mothers mouth. There are millions of children in that situation. To think that some parents think they are being condescending to their child by saying "hey! Good job!" is so ridiculous to me. I have a really hard time picturing a grown child in therapy saying "My mom was so condescending to me...she would say "good job" when I would do something."








A compliment is a compliment. Words of encouragement are just that. To say that a mother doesn't care as much about what her child is doing just because she said "good job" is a far far stretch imo.


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## Centura (Jul 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is my honest opinion... if we are the point of critically evaluating a comment like "good job"... then we are over-analyzing parenting and need to just chill. Seriously! There are a million other issues with children that we need to be concentrating on rather than if "good job" is a traumatic and disturbing aspect of our parenting. Have we micromanaged parenting down to the very essence of HOW we praise our children? Ugh!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
I think a kid can tell whether a parent is engaged and paying attention, and the words spoken are secondary to this. A parent can toss off a disinterested, "Wow, look at all those colors" or an engaged, genuine, "Great job!!" just as easily as the other way around. The parent's attitude and mental involvement matter more than the actual words, IMO.

What they said









Those two posts in combination perfectly describes my attitude.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

my only issue with this type of praise is when people say things like, "good sliding!" "You are the best slider ever!" No. He's not. A more appropriate thing to say might have been, "you were so brave to go down that big slide!" I think when we praise every little thing, it loses it's value and kids expect it more. It just becomes white noise like the "be careful" listed above.


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## francie024 (Oct 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
The Kohn/anti-praise movement is a response to the 80s overpraise movement.

Likewise, my refusal to evaluate every natural interaction I have with my dc is a response to what _I_ see as overparenting, and _way_ too much pressure for parents (esp mothers) to be perfect. I trust that my dc are resilient enough to thrive in the face of my imperfections. But then, I'm a "big picture" kind of person, and a genuine "good job" just doesn't register from my perspective.

Yeah, I agree. I say good job a lot lately. Sometimes I do use more specific phrases. But DD is 17 months, so she may not always understand my words. "good job" is something I KNOW she understands, because I've been using it for a while. As she gets older, I might change it up more. I also say "wow" and "you did it" a lot as well. But in my opinion, my DD and I are so close, she can feel whether or not I am being sincere.

The other day she said "all done" and it was her first time to say those words. I don't even remember what words I used, but I do remember picking her up and hugging her and kissing her. She was grinning ear to ear. She knows I am paying attention and that is what counts.

I used to be the kind of parent that researched everything, but I am starting to relax a little more and just enjoy being natural with DD. I have been thinking about getting a book for toddler age kids, but have been putting it off because I'm enjoying just being natural with my daughter. I'll probably say "good job" at least a couple times today. Oh well, I am not going to over think it.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
I think the point of it is to match your level to your child's. Giving specific feedback at first lets them respond with how they're feeling about the act - was it hard, did it take a long time, was it boring...
It's perfectly fine and wonderful to be happy for your child's achievements, but letting them lead the way lets them set the tone - not you. It teaches them to own their accomplishments instead of looking to see how their accomplishments are perceived by others, and basing their response off of that.

Giving specific feedback lets them see that you really do care, too, and aren't just offering lip service. "You looked like you were getting frustrated but you finished the puzzle" shows them that you saw the steps they were taking, the dedication they had at that moment. "Good job" doesn't really offer the same level of intimacy.

YES.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *green betty* 
I thought Jenn made a great point (as you often do, Jenn!) In the situations where I feel it's most appropriate to say "good job"... it's usually even more appropriate to just say "thank you".

And yes!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quinalla* 
Yeah, I think most of the conversations about avoiding "good job" stem from two things:

1. Avoiding over-praising, where every little thing is praised and it becomes meaningless or the child expects to be praised for everything. And I agree with other PPs, this is not so much of a problem now as it was in the past, though it vary based on your location/family/etc.

2. Trying to use more appropriate or specific phrases instead of all or nearly all general praise. I think general praise is fine sometimes, but it's good to make an effort at times to say something more specific as it forces you to really pay attention and give meaningful feedback, especially on something that a child really cares about or has spent a lot of time/effort on.

And yes!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I have to agree... but I just think it's not so hard to come up with something better than "good swinging"... for instance, my general way of interacting would have been something more like "wheeee! you're swinging, aren't you! Is it fun? *big smiles* you love swinging, don't you?" Which I think is a lot more conversational (like, the kid actually might be learning how to carry on a conversation?) than my telling my child they're "good" at doing something that's actually being done *to* them.

And finally, Yes.

I think there is definitely a difference between being enthusiastic and encouraging your kids (which focuses on their accomplishments and your mutual positive feelings about them) and praising your kids (which focuses on your evaluation of what they did).

I think a lot of this also has to do with the individual child. I am an encouragement/enthusiasm type person, and it was how I parented my son in his early years (he's 5-1/2 now). I was the "you did it!", "look at how high you climbed!" "You used all the colors in that drawing, it's so bright and happy!" mom. Not the "good job/good boy" mom.

Turns out, my kiddo also needs praise/reassurance from me, because of his personality type - so I've been weaving more praise into out interactions, *while* also making sure to focus on his achievements. He is the kind of kid who needs me to say I'm proud of him and I like what he's doing, and that he's doing "good" work. I think some kids need that more than others.

Soooo, while I'm still very much on the specific praise/enthusiasm/focus on the kid side, I see from my own experience that you *also* need to see what kind of kid you have, and work with them based on their needs. Sometimes our kids needs don't always exactly match up to our ideals or philosophies.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I try to parent from the heart and not worry so much about what some expert has to say about my phrasing. If "good job" or even "good standing" or "good swinging" come out, it's because I meant it and was excited for my kids. I think they will be okay. IMO, censoring honest emotions and sticking to a script of approved phrases is taking the trend of overthinking parenting it a new level.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm sure dh and I sounded ridiculous to some people over the things that we have praised ds6 over. He had a lot of gross/fine motor delays, and physical activities will probably always be a challenge for him. When he tries SO hard to do something, I WILL tell him what a great job he did. Even if that is going down the slide. Because believe me, a couple of years ago, going down the slide while sitting up and landing at the bottom okay was a HUGE accomplishment for him. To someone on the outside looking at him, they'd see a regular kid going down the slide. We see something entirely different.

He also has a speech delay. He consistently puts more thought and effort into his speech than anyone I've ever seen. He amazes me on a daily basis. So yes, I praise him when I see him try really hard. He does a great job and deserves to be told so.

I praise all of my kids, but just wanted to use my ds as a particular example. No, I don't praise them all day long...but I do praise them. I think overpraising is ridiculous, as well, but I think praise in general is a good thing.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
The Kohn/anti-praise movement is a response to the 80s overpraise movement.

Likewise, my refusal to evaluate every natural interaction I have with my dc is a response to what _I_ see as overparenting, and _way_ too much pressure for parents (esp mothers) to be perfect. I trust that my dc are resilient enough to thrive in the face of my imperfections. But then, I'm a "big picture" kind of person, and a genuine "good job" just doesn't register from my perspective.









: There are about a billion things worse than saying "good job" to your child. It isn't even on my long list and I do know the arguments against it and sure they are valid enough but it's just over kill imo.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
my only issue with this type of praise is when people say things like, "good sliding!" "You are the best slider ever!" No. He's not. A more appropriate thing to say might have been, "you were so brave to go down that big slide!"

Yes, but calling the child "brave" is labeling which is also a no-no







.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I don't want her to grow up doing things because she wants to please me...I lived that way as a kid and I don't want it for her...so I have been trying to curtail it and turn to more constructive praise "That is NICE!!!" or "You did it by yourself, cool, high five!" - but it's hard not to scoop her up and squeeze her and laugh out "good girl!" - I'm deeply, contagiously and emphatically in love with this little cherry blossom...she is the light of my universe and I love to praise her, joyously and with passion, as I watch her doing all of these incredible new things....she rocks my world, she absolutely lights me on fire....it's so hard not to just let it slip...now that she can climb and is talking, she can run, figured out how to carry things in a bag, which she slings over her shoulder...she rocks and it's super superhard for me to think before I speak...but I'll get there.








:

I sooo love this. It's exactly how I feel! Just her sweet little ape walk across the room leaves me yelling "Good job!" I just add: "You're getting to be such a good walker!" Her accomplishments are so exciting!


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

But my children ARE the best sliders ever!







:









I try to give targeted praise, but really. I am that annoying mom you come to MDC and post about that told her baby, "Oh! Look at you! Look at those strong weggy-wegs! You're standing! GOOD STANDING! You're so strong and big and beautiful and the BEST STANDER EVER!"


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
But my children ARE the best sliders ever!







:









I try to give targeted praise, but really. I am that annoying mom you come to MDC and post about that told her baby, "Oh! Look at you! Look at those strong weggy-wegs! You're standing! GOOD STANDING! You're so strong and big and beautiful and the BEST STANDER EVER!"










Cutest post evah!!!!!







Good Job!!!

P.S. my kids are the best sliders......


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I sooo love this. It's exactly how I feel! Just her sweet little ape walk across the room leaves me yelling "Good job!" I just add: "You're getting to be such a good walker!" Her accomplishments are so exciting!

15 mos ago, she came out of me...and kicked and squirmed up my chest to get her first taste of milkies...and I was stunned at this wrinkled creatures strength and determination.

6 mos ago, she was rocking back and forth on her knees and making "zooming" noises....and even though other kids her age were already crawling and some walking...I felt so proud of her being up on her knees!

3 months ago, she started walking and it changed the whole nature of our family dynamic...she became a real person, milling about my kitchen like a kid!

Last night....we put her down from the sling for the first time as we walk through the woods...she begged me to. I didn't know what she'd do.....but she was a monster! She walked like a pro and even kept up (with a slow stroll pace!)...our first family hike with all feet on the ground...stole the breath from me....for real.

We've come so far in such a short time...and these accomplishments seem so small, but in my heart and eyes, all I see is this creature which started so small and defensless, growing into such a fine young lass. I couldn't be more proud...I couldn't love her more, even though I know I will tomorrow!

She feels my love, she always gets my warmth and kindness. I spend all my time with her, she is my number one. As a woman who spent her childhood searching for shreds of approval on my mothers face, who never ever got a moment to stop trying to impress her, prove my worth and trustworthiness and that I was as good as I wanted to think she could beleive I was......I'm happy with my parenting. I can't complain with the small flaws I might posess according to some of these books...because I'm emotionally, physically and creatively PRESENT in my childs life.

I have grown weary, in the short time I've been parenting, of any plan or parenting tip which causes me to feel like I'm holding back. Maybe I'm making a mistake....but you know, it strikes me that so far I've been living (as a parent) in the "If it feels good, you're doing it right" mode...and it's really been working for us. It feels GOOD to be proud, it feels GOOD to high five her....it feels good to see my enthusiasm bolstering her confidence and filling her with the sense that she should be excited about life and people and herself.

I'm not one of these "the world is waiting for MY child to come and set it on fire"...she has limits, I set boundries, we are not completely hands off, anything goes people.....but man, we sure are in love with this little floor pig we've picked up....and though I do plan to curtail the "good girl" a bit (because, you know, it really does sound like I'm tlaking to a dog!) I can't be too upset with myself for the way that I praise my kid. Some kids don't have a mama....mine has one who has never been happier to know another human being in her life...my kid is so cool.

Maybe it's a new kid thing, maybe because everything she does is a "first" it's easier to constatly find yourself praising....but when I really look at it...it's not really even praise. The communication is not "you succeeded, you are worthy of my love!" the communication is more of a shared triumph, shared joy....she climbs something, I am overjoyed at her awesome feat and she is FREAKING out, clapping and giggling, so happy for hersef....and I scoop her up and twirl her around and say "good girl!! woohooo!!" - it's joy shared. Nto qualifying her accomplishment as worthy of my praise.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I guess I don't feel like I'm holding back so much as expressing my pleasure more fully. I use more words than just "good job"/"good girl". That's all. It's not about holding back, to me, but about expressing with a fuller vocabulary.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I guess I don't feel like I'm holding back so much as expressing my pleasure more fully. I use more words than just "good job"/"good girl". That's all. It's not about holding back, to me, but about expressing with a fuller vocabulary.









Well, I say more than "good job/great job/way to go", too. I don't just say "Good job" and leave it at that.

It kind of all seems like praise to me...just some people tack on "good job" and some don't. LOL


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
Well, I say more than "good job/great job/way to go", too. I don't just say "Good job" and leave it at that.

It kind of all seems like praise to me...just some people tack on "good job" and some don't. LOL

i guess i should make it clear that I'm not specifically against praise.

I have definitely heard lots of (um, most) people just automatically say "good job" and leave it at that. Therein lies my problem with "good job"... or really any meaningless praise.

And really, I'm a praise junky, myself, but to me it's not about praising my children, but about being joyful about their accomplishments. That doesn't require my value judgement being pushed on them, imo. Saying "look at you! You're really doing it after all that trying!!" puts emphasis on them and not on me. I think that's important - but it's still possible to be joyful and responsive to their accomplishments without making it about what I think.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

If I had to think this hard about what I said all day I would just go mute.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I think the point is that it's not that hard, and doesn't really require thinking (it's supposed to be organic and genuine) - it just flows from being engaged with and conversing with your kid, which for many of us, "good job" *doesn't* feel that way - it feels generic and detached.

I also think that just because I *don't* think my kid is the BEST [fill in the blank] EVER, doesn't mean I don't love them with all my heart or marvel at the things they do...because I do - my kids do a lot of stuff that I think is *sensational*...but I can't think of anything that either of my kids are the *best* at. Maybe a lot of it is just parental excitement, or maybe hyperbole, but I guess it's the overemoting and, well, basic untruth of it that bugs me (how exactly does a person stand "better" than another person?). Best ever is not a goal I have for myself nor my children, really - trying their best, finding talents and passions? Yes. Being the best stander or best football player or best scientist EVER? Nah - being a kind, compassionate person is WAY more important to me than being the best at anything.

What I DO think the "best/awesomest/whateverst" trend _can_ do, if said enough to a kid, is give them a poor sense of their true selves and a (inflated) sense of importance. If you're told you're the best at developmental milestones or normal things you should be doing anyway (which is where *appreciation* comes in vs. praise), whether you are or not, you have no real sense of what your actual strengths and weaknesses are, KWIM?

I think there's a big backlash against 'overinvolved' or 'overthinking' parenting these days, which I can get behind, honestly....but at the same time, I can't get really behind not thinking at all about how what you say, or how you say it, can really affect your kid. I know that saying the same thing 2 different ways to my kid can produce a really different result...and it's my job, IMO, to think about that.

I'm a fan of thoughtful parenting - 'slacker moms' have become cool, and while I can get behind not beating yourself up for every imagined wrongdoing against your child and/or trying to make their lives PERFECT, I can't get behind _not_thinking about how your words and actions impact them.

Annnnnyway - kind of tangent-y, but felt like I wanted to write it.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think the point is that it's not that hard, and doesn't really require thinking (it's supposed to be organic and genuine) - it just flows from being engaged with and conversing with your kid, which for many of us, "good job" *doesn't* feel that way - it feels generic and detached.

I also think that just because I *don't* think my kid is the BEST [fill in the blank] EVER, doesn't mean I don't love them with all my heart or marvel at the things they do...because I do - my kids do a lot of stuff that I think is *sensational*...but I can't think of anything that either of my kids are the *best* at. Maybe a lot of it is just parental excitement, or maybe hyperbole, but I guess it's the overemoting and, well, basic untruth of it that bugs me (how exactly does a person stand "better" than another person?). Best ever is not a goal I have for myself nor my children, really - trying their best, finding talents and passions? Yes. Being the best stander or best football player or best scientist EVER? Nah - being a kind, compassionate person is WAY more important to me than being the best at anything.

What I DO think the "best/awesomest/whateverst" trend _can_ do, if said enough to a kid, is give them a poor sense of their true selves and a (inflated) sense of importance. If you're told you're the best at developmental milestones or normal things you should be doing anyway (which is where *appreciation* comes in vs. praise), whether you are or not, you have no real sense of what your actual strengths and weaknesses are, KWIM?

I think there's a big backlash against 'overinvolved' or 'overthinking' parenting these days, which I can get behind, honestly....but at the same time, I can't get really behind not thinking at all about how what you say, or how you say it, can really affect your kid. I know that saying the same thing 2 different ways to my kid can produce a really different result...and it's my job, IMO, to think about that.

I'm a fan of thoughtful parenting - 'slacker moms' have become cool, and while I can get behind not beating yourself up for every imagined wrongdoing against your child and/or trying to make their lives PERFECT, I can't get behind _not_thinking about how your words and actions impact them.

Annnnnyway - kind of tangent-y, but felt like I wanted to write it.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think the point is that it's not that hard, and doesn't really require thinking (it's supposed to be organic and genuine) - it just flows from being engaged with and conversing with your kid, which for many of us, "good job" *doesn't* feel that way - it feels generic and detached.

Well I guess that is the difference then. To me it does come naturally. Coming up with some contrived way of avoiding those words seems very disingenuous to me. And frankly, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to stop using them. I told my daughter she did a good job cleaning up her toys earlier. I don't see a darn thing wrong with that. I was genuinely proud of her, and she seemed to appreciate the compliment. She tells me I do a good job cleaning and cooking too, which I think is super sweet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think there's a big backlash against 'overinvolved' or 'overthinking' parenting these days, which I can get behind, honestly....but at the same time, I can't get really behind not thinking at all about how what you say, or how you say it, can really affect your kid. I know that saying the same thing 2 different ways to my kid can produce a really different result...and it's my job, IMO, to think about that.

I'm a fan of thoughtful parenting - 'slacker moms' have become cool, and while I can get behind not beating yourself up for every imagined wrongdoing against your child and/or trying to make their lives PERFECT, I can't get behind _not_thinking about how your words and actions impact them.

I don't think anyone here is advocating not thinking at all about what we say to our kids, but rather that it can be taken to the point of the absurd and can become very stifling and unnatural.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Yes, but calling the child "brave" is labeling which is also a no-no







.










Is a tepid, "Hey, kid....Whatever..." OK?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
Is a tepid, "Hey, kid....Whatever..." OK?









I seems to have come to that.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Well I guess that is the difference then. To me it does come naturally. Coming up with some contrived way of avoiding those words seems very disingenuous to me. And frankly, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to stop using them. I told my daughter she did a good job cleaning up her toys earlier. I don't see a darn thing wrong with that. I was genuinely proud of her, and she seemed to appreciate the compliment. She tells me I do a good job cleaning and cooking too, which I think is super sweet.

I don't think anyone here is advocating not thinking at all about what we say to our kids, but rather that it can be taken to the point of the absurd and can become very stifling and unnatural.









:


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Alfie Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so what he's talking about is the use of praise as a behavioral tool. He is not not trying to get parents to stop expressing genuine appreciation.

Praise is often used as a behavioral tool. More so when I was a kid - the trend does seem to be shifting a bit - but still to some extent. The idea was that every time you saw a kid do anything you liked, you'd say, "good job!" with the hope that the child would do it again. The other side was to ignore behavior you didn't like, or say something negative about it, so your gave constant carrots for good behavior even if you never gave a stick for bad behavior, and in doing so you would shape your child's behavior for the better. Kohn feels that kind of empty praise can make children think your love for them is tied to when they do things you like.

He is not talking about genuine appreciation, as in, "Wow! I loved listening to your song!" He's talking about, "Good singing!", "Good eating!" "Good standing!" "Good pooping in the potty!" "Good sharing!" "Good jumping!". That kind of thing, often done almost continually through the day.

Yeah, I think this is where UP generally gets completely misunderstood. He's talking about using praise as a form of reward. I took from the book that, it's got a lot to do with the tone you use, and HOW you frame your words. You can still say "good job" without saying "good job".

Personally though, I'm not a fan of "good job", or the idea that you should congratulate children on normal things they always do (eating, standing, sleeping, etc). Having a good heart to heart, and letting your child know that it was appreciated and why, to me, goes a million times farther then just saying a quaint "good eating!"

I felt that a lot of his ideas fell right in line with the GDing spectrum.

ETA:

He also adds that when we say "good job" all the time, children look for us to constantly say it. This doesn't just stop when they are kids, these children grow into adults who are addicted to praise, who need to be told they are doing a good job, and sometimes, lack the self-esteem to continue unless someone notices. This is sort of an extreme situation, but I see it in my own husband. His parents were always riddling him with "good job", and now when he does something in the house that he's SUPPOSED to do, and I don't notice, he gets really upset, and thinks I didn't notice or care. Even when I tell him "I appreciate that you did X"- he just wants me to hug him and say "good job!" For him, and he's admitted this, it gives him a temporary high that makes him feel accomplished. Even when I shouldn't be saying good job when he's picked up after himself, or when he's put PJ's on DS, or something that is part of his daily life.

And for the argument that anything other then "good job" doesn't come naturally, try to think about how you were praised or how you saw praise happen in your childhood and growing up. Saying good job has been around for years, and years- of course, it's hard to NOT say something when that's what we've seen for years.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Why is it being assumed by some that people who say "good job" or the like never use any other words or never have longer conversations with their kids?


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Why is it being assumed by some that people who say "good job" or the like never use any other words or never have longer conversations with their kids?

Yeah, I'm a bit confused on that, as well.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
He also adds that when we say "good job" all the time, children look for us to constantly say it. This doesn't just stop when they are kids, these children grow into adults who are addicted to praise, who need to be told they are doing a good job, and sometimes, lack the self-esteem to continue unless someone notices. This is sort of an extreme situation, but I see it in my own husband. His parents were always riddling him with "good job", and now when he does something in the house that he's SUPPOSED to do, and I don't notice, he gets really upset, and thinks I didn't notice or care. Even when I tell him "I appreciate that you did X"- he just wants me to hug him and say "good job!" For him, and he's admitted this, it gives him a temporary high that makes him feel accomplished. Even when I shouldn't be saying good job when he's picked up after himself, or when he's put PJ's on DS, or something that is part of his daily life.

Yes, that is indeed an extreme example. Anything can be taken too far though, such as lack of praise. Just ask my mother or other people of her generation whose parents were afraid of praising kids too much. I think that is where the backlash of overpraise came from. Personally, I think there is a nice middle ground which is where I like to live.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
And for the argument that anything other then "good job" doesn't come naturally, try to think about how you were praised or how you saw praise happen in your childhood and growing up. Saying good job has been around for years, and years- of course, it's hard to NOT say something when that's what we've seen for years.

I think folks are saying that "good job" comes out naturally at times, not that anything other than good job does not come naturally







.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Yes, that is indeed an extreme example. Anything can be taken too far though, such as lack of praise. Just ask my mother or other people of her generation whose parents were afraid of praising kids too much. I think that is where the backlash of overpraise came from. Personally, I think there is a nice middle ground which is where I like to live.

That's where I like to live, too.

Also, my own parents were not big on praise. At all. I didn't get any "good jobs" from them when I was growing up. I did get praise from my older siblings, though.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I think folks are saying that "good job" comes out naturally at times, not that anything other than good job does not come naturally







.

Yes!


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## ~LadyBug~ (Aug 14, 2009)

I have not read any responses yet only the OP, and yes I say "Good Job" to my two, who are 2 and 3. I say variances to that as well like "Awesome job, You did great, You did fantastic" things like that. I do get specific when they have been trying to accomplish something as well. I guess I have never given it much thought until I read your post.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

This has been a very interesting discussion. I think it is because us MDC ladies are an opinionated bunch!







I posted in the beginning, but wanted to pop back in to agree that "good job" by itself isn't a bad phrase, and we shouldn't make ourselves nuts about whether we use it or not (there are much worse things we could say, and boy, am I on the brink of those too sometimes... though that is usually directed at dh, which doesn't count, right?).

The OP was asking specifically about the academic reasons behind not just saying "good job." There are plenty of us who do things on all parts of the spectrum of parenting in regular old real life (GD, diapering, CIO, vax, etc. etc. etc.) We are all up tight about some stuff and relaxed about others. It's the nature of the job, right? I think it's good to draw your line in the sand sometimes, but we are all fans of MDC because we take mothering very seriously, and generally don't accept status quo. That having been said, I like to come here both to connect with others and to find ideas for ways I can improve my craft, without placing too much stress on myself about it.

I prefer more targeted praise, because I know and have seen in my students how much more effective it is. Do I still say just "good job" sometimes? Sure! I think it is important to be natural and true to myself. It just doesn't feel like enough to me. I personally don't like just hearing "good job." I had one professor who wrote whole paragraphs in response to my papers and one who just drew smiley faces.... which one do you think I preferred to get after all the work I put in?

When it comes down to it, in a school setting, it is important to consider the what gets the best results when it comes to motivation. It's just part of the job, and that is where those studies come from and if one wants to apply them to parenting, great... just remember that they are studies, not royal decrees. Apply liberally or sparingly as necessary, like we do with all parenting advice (and be sure to save up for therapy...er...uh college either way







)


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

P.S. wanted to add that while I myself would rather get targeted praise... I do, however, prefer "good job" to "take a hike" or "hey screw up" so all is relative


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
If I had to think this hard about what I said all day I would just go mute.









:


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Yes, that is indeed an extreme example. Anything can be taken too far though, such as lack of praise. Just ask my mother or other people of her generation whose parents were afraid of praising kids too much. I think that is where the backlash of overpraise came from. Personally, I think there is a nice middle ground which is where I like to live.

I think folks are saying that "good job" comes out naturally at times, not that anything other than good job does not come naturally







.

Oh gosh, and see, I didn't mean that. What I was trying to say, that we tend to do things that we've watched, or seen millions of times in our own lives. We will always have a natural tendency to lean towards what is familiar, and mimic what we've watched growing up. In school, I was told "good job" or "good work", or any of the other trite statements. Kohn's arguement, is that the statement, when used to sum up an event that may actually deserve some legit words of support and appreciation, can often be written off by a "good job". Alternatively, he argues that saying it for things that aren't really things that need to be praised for (like my darling husband doing the dishes- right??







) can be detrimental for the child- saying it for things that deserve praise, and then saying it for things that don't = an over praised child who may grow up with an unhealthy need for constant praise.

In no way do I think that it's not easy for those of you who say good job- I'm just saying that "good job" has literally been thrown around at all of us for years. Not saying it is the harder task, because it's essentially been hardwired into our brains that when we do something good, it should be followed up with a "good job" or "good post!"









For the record, I do say good job.Although, I do try to say, "You did it!" It is hard not to say it when you are proud of your child for even the simplest things. I just make a conscious effort NOT to constantly say it when DS does something that makes me go "YAY!" inside. I do acknowledge him, but I try to make sure I don't always say, "good job!" I've seen both sides of the fence, and I hope we're finding a decent balance over here


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

While reading Unconditional Parenting it really hit home for me as an artist. I can draw very well, but I hate it. I heard so much "good job!" throughout my life that I stopped enjoying the precess and it became all about the results and the approval of others. It's sad because I want to draw. I want to enjoy it. I don't want to be hung up on the end result and the opinions of others...but I just can't seem to get past it.

And honestly...."Good job" is thrown around faaaar too much now. I've heard "Good reading!", "Good crawling!" , "Good playing!", even "Good smiling!"







: Seriously, can't people think of something better to say to kids? I feel like it's like giving a child a verbal dog biscuit. To me it seems automatic and not very respectful of children.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Why is it being assumed by some that people who say "good job" or the like never use any other words or never have longer conversations with their kids?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I think folks are saying that "good job" comes out naturally at times, not that anything other than good job does not come naturally







.

I think that both "sides" here are using extremes to prove a point, to a point.







And most of us fall somewhere in that middle you mention.

I don't think any of us who are arguing against good job have said we NEVER say it. I know I've said it. I just don't say it much.

And really, the more I think about it, it's not so much 'good job' that bugs me (though it does bug me a little







), it's the co-opting of "good" in front of other words that turns interactions into shorthand...For instance, "Good sharing!" "Good helping!" - I hear those SO much. That is what bugs me, plopping "good" in front of things.

"Good listening!" I don't understand why that needs shortening or turned into a catchphrase. Why is it more effort to say "Thanks for listening!" ? I can't imagine one would say, "Bad listening!" - they'd say something like, "Please listen" or "You're not listening very well" or something like that. I think that's another part that bothers me. Would you say "Bad X" as the counterpart of whatever it is you're saying is "good"?

I do wholeheartedly agree that there are a lot of worse things that can be said to a kid than good job - and hey, I've had my times that I've said things I wish I hadn't to my kids when I've been angry or frustrated - this isn't about perfection and metering every single word coming out of your mouth, it really isn't (at least IMO). As a PP mentioned, this is mostly an academic discussion for me, about the problems I see with "good X!" more than whether or not I ever have uttered it, or whether moms who don't say it are "better" than moms who don't (which for the record, I do NOT believe).

And, as another couple posters have mentioned, I see MDC as a place where people often taken the path less traveled, so calling it overthinking or contrived seems sort of strange, when there are so many things discussed on this site that require a LOT more effort and thought than this, IMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I don't think anyone here is advocating not thinking at all about what we say to our kids, but rather that it can be taken to the point of the absurd and can become very stifling and unnatural.

I think the more you do it, the less you have to think about it - at least that's how it worked for me. Like a lot of things I do that aren't 'mainstream', it required an intention, a time period of focusing on it, and then it just became part of my new normal. I really don't even think about it anymore.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
And, as another couple posters have mentioned, I see MDC as a place where people often taken the path less traveled, so calling it overthinking or contrived seems sort of strange, when there are so many things discussed on this site that require a LOT more effort and thought than this, IMO.

I think this is sort of an interesting point. I guess I just see this completely differently. To me, breastfeeding, babywearing, and the like come very naturally and are part of how children have been raised throughout human history. There is a biological calling to do both of those things. But this idea of changing the sort of organic (and positive) way I interact with my children because of what some supposed expert has to say is anything but natural and is what I think gets a lot of so called mainstreamers (for lack of a better term) into trouble. Basically, I say down with the experts! Down with The Man!





















:














And as with everything, YMMV.

ETA - And more seriously, basically what I mean is I have no problem with anyone saying that "good job" doesn't feel right to them and that other ways of interacting with their child feel more natural to them. What I do have a problem with are Kohn's assertion that saying "good job" or praising in general is damaging and manipulative. BTW, for anyone that hasn't read any of his books, you may find this article called "Five Reasons to Stop Saying 'Good Job!'"interesting.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

I really love Alfie Kohn and UP but I also disagree with this. Praise is important to a child, it makes them happy. I think the thing is you have to let them know that your LOVE for them isn't based on how well they do things. For instance, I tell my dd that I am happy with her test results as long as she tried her best. She doesn't have to get an A every time. I really do think it matters that it comes from your heart, not an absentminded "good job" while staring at the tv while your child shows you something. I could've used praise from my father. All I ever got told was what I did wrong..I think I would've cried with happiness if he ever told me something I did made him happy.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

See... I don't see "good job" as organic, but as an artifact of our (mainstream) culture. It's just "what you say"... and requires less thought than a full sentence... had it not been a created saying, we would be saying the sentence... just as we didn't have extra rooms in our houses, everyone's baby would be sleeping in their room...


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
See... I don't see "good job" as organic, but as an artifact of our (mainstream) culture. It's just "what you say"... and requires less thought than a full sentence... had it not been a created saying, we would be saying the sentence... just as we didn't have extra rooms in our houses, everyone's baby would be sleeping in their room...

It may not be organic for you to say "good job" or to praise your child. It is for me. It has nothing to do with being conditioned to think it is just what you say. I was a young child in the 70's when the idea of building self-esteem in children or relating to them at all really was just beginning. Think Marlow Thomas/Free to Be You and Me, Mister Rogers, and Warm Fuzzies. I really never got constant "good jobs" or tons of praise in general growing up. I'm curious when the people who say they heard it all the time grew up.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I can not recall being told 'good job' once when I was growing up. I was not praised at all as far as I can remember (not self -esteem building for sure). I was born in the late 70's.

I do agree there is a big difference between saying 'good job' when you are engaged and truly mean it and when it's just a way to kind of brush your kids off and get back to what you were doing kwim. I guess intent matters imo.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
ETA - And more seriously, basically what I mean is I have no problem with anyone saying that "good job" doesn't feel right to them and that other ways of interacting with their child feel more natural to them. I what I do have a problem with are Kohn's assertion that saying "good job" or praising in general is damaging and manipulative. BTW, for anyone that hasn't read any of his books, you may find this article called "Five Reasons to Stop Saying 'Good Job!'"interesting.

BUT, it actually can be manipulative, when parents are using it as a tool to get what THEY want. When you are generally impressed with your child, and are actually expressing interest, and praise in what they have done, even when it doesn't benefit you, then of course, "good job" is not a tool for behavioral adaptation. What the issue is, like someone else brought up, the "good" is now being thrown in front of everything, which is actually manipulative, even you are not aware of it. A lot of parents are trying to find ways to get their children to do what THEY want, not what is actually in the best interest of their child. I mean this as no offense to anyone but I tell my dog "good job" or "good listening" or "good girl". When I use those phrases with my dog, I absolutely am trying to use them as a way of manipulating her to do what I need or want. (FTR, iI'm not saying anyone who does use those phrases is bad or terrible- I use them with my dog for behavioral adaptation, and am not meaning to compare anyone to that- it's just my own experience).

My point is, just because for you they aren't tools of manipulation, does not mean they are not that for many others.

The context that you or I are using it in, is not manipulative. However, Kohn's argument that it can be and is often used as a manipulative tool is actually not too far off. All of you have to do is go to any local bookstore and find the newest sleep training or scheduling craze to realize that for most "experts", praise is used as a method of getting your child to do what YOU want.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
A lot of parents are trying to find ways to get their children to do what THEY want, not what is actually in the best interest of their child. .

Are the two mutually exclusive? Usually the parent wants what is in the best interest of the child.

Yes, "good ____!" can be used as a sort of reward to help encourage behavior the parent wants to see. Used *all day long*, I can see how this is problematic. Used in moderation, to form a new habit or learn a new skill, for instance, I don't see the harm. I've read the theories, but, in moderation, I don't believe it to be harmful at all--and I _do_ believe it to be useful. So I keep that tool in my toolbelt.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
It may not be organic for you to say "good job" or to praise your child. It is for me. It has nothing to do with being conditioned to think it is just what you say. I was a young child in the 70's when the idea of building self-esteem in children or relating to them at all really was just beginning. Think Marlow Thomas/Free to Be You and Me, Mister Roger's, and Warm Fuzzies. I really never got constant "good jobs" or tons of praise in general growing up. I'm curious when the people who say they heard it all the time grew up.

I didn't either, but I hear it all around me now...


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Are the two mutually exclusive? Usually the parent wants what is in the best interest of the child.

Yes, "good ____!" can be used as a sort of reward to help encourage behavior the parent wants to see. Used *all day long*, I can see how this is problematic. Used in moderation, to form a new habit or learn a new skill, for instance, I don't see the harm. I've read the theories, but, in moderation, I don't believe it to be harmful at all--and I _do_ believe it to be useful. So I keep that tool in my toolbelt.

They absolutely can be. I think most, if not all, will say they want the best for their child. I believe that very few actually practice that though- they want what is best for their child, as long as it's what they want as a parent. I've met these people, in fact I was raised by some of these people. Absolutely, my parents will argue they want what's best for me- but to this day, I can tell you they will never accept me entirely because I did not do what they wanted for me, or rather what they thought was best for me, despite the fact that it was not at all the best "thing" for me. It's a sad, sad feeling to realize that your parents had been manipulating you to get what they wanted, and in the end, really won't accept you, despite the fact that they proclaim loudly that they will. Even sadder still, is that I have turned into the confident, intelligent, successful woman they wished for me- just not on their terms or how they wanted me to be.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this?

I'm not saying that "good job" is terrible and awful- in fact, in my posts I say that I use it occasionally, and argue that simply it can be used for the wrong purposes.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
They absolutely can be. I think most, if not all, will say they want the best for their child. I believe that very few actually practice that though- they want what is best for their child, as long as it's what they want as a parent. I've met these people, in fact I was raised by some of these people. Absolutely, my parents will argue they want what's best for me- but to this day, I can tell you they will never accept me entirely because I did not do what they wanted for me, or rather what they thought was best for me, despite the fact that it was not at all the best "thing" for me. It's a sad, sad feeling to realize that your parents had been manipulating you to get what they wanted, and in the end, really won't accept you, despite the fact that they proclaim loudly that they will. Even sadder still, is that I have turned into the confident, intelligent, successful woman they wished for me- just not on their terms or how they wanted me to be.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this?

I'm not saying that "good job" is terrible and awful- in fact, in my posts I say that I use it occasionally, and argue that simply it can be used for the wrong purposes.

You described my childhood, only praise was given to me in front of my sister to manipulate her, or not at all. In fact, I recently told my mother that I never really felt like I had her approval and, instead of saying "why did you feel that way?" she said "I don't know why you would have thought that!"







:

DH has really helped me to accept myself on my own merits. Like you, I became the confident, successful person, but until I let go of wanting my mom to TELL me that, I went through life feeling like a failure.

So where is this balance? People who get praised too much are praise hungry, but so are people who don't get praised at all. I guess you could say I praise to celebrate, not to manipulate. I do use good job sometimes, but it is not the only thing I would say. I think I say "thank you" way more often.

I love MDC. This kind of intellectual debating in a safe place makes me so happy.







:


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