# can we just agree to disagree?



## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

can we all agree that we are all trying our best as mamas here, we all want what is best for our families, and we all agree that children have as many needs at night as they do during the day. and can we all agree to disagree on how to best meet our childrens needs while at the same time considering our own needs? this is NOT the CLW forum; learning how to gently nightwean is a valid concern for many cosleeping moms.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

What exactly are you suggesting?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I will not agree to compromise my very strongly held beliefs when it comes to parenting. I am here at MDC because I believe in attachment parenting, and I volunteered to be a moderator because I love MDC and everything it stands for. That there is a Child Led Weaning forum here means that MDC supports that kind of parenting. People who come to MDC should expect a certain kind of advice, and I am not seeing that happen at this forum lately. I never meant any disrespect with any of my replies, but I refuse to be supportive of practices that I see as harmful to babies.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Beyond the concerns stafl just brought up is another...

Does a question *imply* only asking for a certain kind of answers.

Think of all the people who have been misinformed about nursing (can't nurse while pg, while on antibiotics, after a certain amt of time, etc...). If they come on asking for weaning advice is it advesarial to comment that ___blank___ may not really be a reason to wean?

Same thing here. If some says they think its time, baby needs it, etc... about nightweaning is that necessarily a request for only night-weaning supportive advice. Many times, I think people are just trying to verbalize their feelings and are looking for any kind of advice or SUPPORT for what they feel, but may not be supported by their doctor, their mother...


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

From what I see, there is definitely some agreeing to disagree on this forum. I saw all the hubub above about nightweaning. Some are very outspoken about what they believe is *right,* but overall you (the OP) got a range of advice, support, and opinions. There are many ways to be a successful AP mom, and I think in that way you can expect there to be many different opinions about what that entails. There are definitely some who are certain their beliefs are the best for everyone (don't we all have a little of that, to some extent?), and there are also some who are more outspoken or articulate than others, and they might shadow other ideas. I think you can expect that no matter what forum you go to. It's just discussion. Like everything else in AP parenting, you have to take what works for you and leave what doesn't jive with you. Think of it this way: every thesis has an antithesis, and both can be equally well proven. You ultimately have to follow your heart about what feels right for you and your family.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

I also wish that discussions could be had with a little less "flaming" and anger. I visit these forums for ideas, suggestions, and support, but it makes me sad to see mamas verbally attacking each other. We all have opinions, ideas, and our own way of parenting. Sometimes those ways will not align with every other parent here.
I signed on here at the MDC some time ago, but left because I did not care for the angry feeling from so many posts. I've never personally attacked or been attacked on the forums here, but I didn't like what I was seeing.
I'm back again to give it another try. I hope I'm here to saty this time.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I will not agree to compromise my very strongly held beliefs when it comes to parenting. I am here at MDC because I believe in attachment parenting, and I volunteered to be a moderator because I love MDC and everything it stands for. That there is a Child Led Weaning forum here means that MDC supports that kind of parenting. People who come to MDC should expect a certain kind of advice, and I am not seeing that happen at this forum lately. I never meant any disrespect with any of my replies, but I refuse to be supportive of practices that I see as harmful to babies.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homemademomma*
can we all agree that we are all trying our best as mamas here, we all want what is best for our families, and we all agree that children have as many needs at night as they do during the day. and can we all agree to disagree on how to best meet our childrens needs while at the same time considering our own needs? this is NOT the CLW forum; learning how to gently nightwean is a valid concern for many cosleeping moms.

I dont quite know what to make of this post.... Part of me feels like you are offended b/c for some reason you feel you were not supported for a choice you have made.

Of course we know that the mama's here love their children and want what is best for them. I think its a little extreme to draw the conclusion that some mama's feel that other's here dont want what is best for their families just because they have different views.

Like I have said on the boards before, support comes in many shapes and sizes - agreement being only one of them.

Personally, I get offened at posts that say, "I know mdc doesnt support xyz but...." It leaves me wondering what the poster is doing here....


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

i totally feel like everyone was respectful in the other thread, but i think thatthere is room for different parenting styles when it comes to night time parenting. just like some parents cosleep, and others use a cosleeper, both are acceptable, bc they both keep the baby near the parent and allow the parent to respond to the baby's needs. i dont think CLW is the only style of parenting that is acceptable, as long as weaning is done respectfully and gently. just MO

Quote:

Think of all the people who have been misinformed about nursing (can't nurse while pg, while on antibiotics, after a certain amt of time, etc...). If they come on asking for weaning advice is it advesarial to comment that ___blank___ may not really be a reason to wean?
of course not

anyway, i guess i feel a little defensive because i know i am a good mama, and i know that my childs needs are always met, daytime and night time, and i feel like people are suggesting otherwise. im sorry if i have offended people somehow


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
Personally, I get offened at posts that say, "I know mdc doesnt support xyz but...." It leaves me wondering what the poster is doing here....

Raven, I promise I am not picking on you...but I have to take issue with this comment. For me, AP is not all or nothing. For example, there are moms that ff, that have repeat c-sections, don't eat organic or cloth diaper, and they are looking for support in an AP forum (MCD), which doesn't *necessarily* support any of these things, but these moms still need support. They don't want to go to babycenter, where people think they are idiots for even caring that-for example-it might be too hard on their child to nightwean them. They want support here. They want to know that others are in the same boat, so to speak.

Do they not belong because they have some different viewpoints? I mean, is it mainstream to be an attached parent now? Or do we have to follow a checklist? I'm still a nighttime parent and we still have a family bed. And I want to nightwean and keep a family bed and keep being a nighttime parent that doesn't nurse for 4 hours or so every night. That's personally what I'm doing here, even though I know MDC supports and encourages night nursing for as long as the child needs/wants it.

I'm sure that's as clear as mud. Oh well, I tried (again) to get my pov across.


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## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Well, maybe my post is one of the ones that make people wonder? Anyway, I really like this essay, since what we are going thru with my daughter is challenging everything I held as a parenting value.
http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/ap-frame-of-mind.html

Something that I have learned in this first 14 months of my daughter's life is that I can believe in anything that I want and I can hold whatever values I want, but nothing is absolute. My daughter has challenged everything that I read about AP and I feel certain that she probably would not have survived in a more primative culture because of her disposition and needs.

I don't even like the label "AP" anymore, I prefer to say that I follow instinct and cues in my parenting. Because a lot of what we have done and do in parenting my daughter isn't listed or goes against things that API and other places list as the tenets of "AP".

Different children have different needs. As do different parents and the different families they make up. I have stopped looking for the "one size fits all" solution and I no longer look for absolution that what I am doing is or isn't AP. As long as my DD is happy and healthy and her needs are met, then I don't see why it matters.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo*
Raven, I promise I am not picking on you...but I have to take issue with this comment. For me, AP is not all or nothing. For example, there are moms that ff, that have repeat c-sections, don't eat organic or cloth diaper, and they are looking for support in an AP forum (MCD), which doesn't *necessarily* support any of these things, but these moms still need support. They don't want to go to babycenter, where people think they are idiots for even caring that-for example-it might be too hard on their child to nightwean them. They want support here. They want to know that others are in the same boat, so to speak.

I totally understand what you are saying. AP is about being attached to your child - and yes there are many ways in which to do this. But MDC is MDC and there are certain things that we stand for. A ff mama is not going to get support for her choice, but she herself as a mama will be supported. What we stand for is gentle and firm support for the things Mothering stands for.

Quote:

Do they not belong because they have some different viewpoints?

Of course not. But one cannot come here asking for support (in the form of agreement only) when they admittedly know MDC stands for something different.

I came to MDC VERY unaware of what AP was. I was young (18) and a lot of my views were challenged. But you know what, above all else, I was willing to learn new things. There is a saying (cant remember who said it though) that goes: *The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands, but in seeing with new eyes*

Quote:

I mean, is it mainstream to be an attached parent now?
I wish! :LOL

Quote:

I'm still a nighttime parent and we still have a family bed. And I want to nightwean and keep a family bed and keep being a nighttime parent that doesn't nurse for 4 hours or so every night. That's personally what I'm doing here, even though I know MDC supports and encourages night nursing for as long as the child needs/wants it.
If that is working for you and your family great... only you know if your family is benefitting from the choices you make in their best interests.

What I am concerned about however, are members who ask for advice/support but refuse to accept it when it does not fit into their already preconceived ideas about what is the right thing to do.

Its simple really, if you want support from MDC, expect MDC support. If you choose to do something that is not totally MDC (and lets remember, MDC is not the be-all-and-end-all of AP) then dont get upset when there are mama's who dont agree with your choices. Its silly to get offended when you know you are being a good mother - you dont need others to validate that.


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

_I have to get my thoughts in here._

Stafl said

Quote:

:_I never meant any disrespect with any of my replies, but I refuse to be supportive of practices that I see as harmful to babies._
This sort of is curious to me coming from a moderator, _however_ I do understand her overall feeling and agree overall with MDC's stance etc. I have never fit in better in a place so caring, open minded and truly extoling the virtues of motherhood like no other. I am free to post my usually strong AP type opinions without having to clarify every damn thing.

That said, I *firmly* believe AP is _grey_ area *NOT* back and white. I don't call myself an AP mama. I do practice attached, close, sensitive-to-my-children's needs, non-aggressive parenting day to day.

I do yell at times, so some might take it from Stafl's point of view in the above quote had I mentioned that in a post I wouldn't be supported? Not that I ask for support in days when I yell, but support in my feelings etc. I _have_ been offered such support on days etc and never felt flamed, picked on etc. I also am a vaxxing mama. Now granted we select and delay, but should I post it does that mean she would not support my choices as a mama? I also use sposies now due to finances, sadly, so you won't support me in that? I just think it comes off a bit harsh to those who may be new, like me, but who may not be confident in their choices as mamas, unlike me. I firmly believe in my choices and no one upsets me in regards to them. But many like the OP seem to be upset and feel picked on. That doesn't mean they don't belong.

To *ME*, supporting choices of mamas goes without saying, regardless of choices, so long as they properly research their choices and think on them rather than go with societal norms. _This is how I look at AP overall_. We shouldn't be blatantly stating that we won't support choices we don't agree with, but support mamas in their _rights_ to choices no matter what they might be, so long as the mamas understand that this place has firm beliefs and ways of thinking and living, and many won't be as supportive.

*We all fit in*. AP is varied and beautiful in its purest form. To me, AP is simply abiding by one's inner voice and instinct when parenting our children. There are a million differing circumstances that may render the exact nature of some families AP ways, finances, beliefs etc. That doesn't mean we can be supportive just because a web site forum or magazine are firm in other stances.

_Just my humble 2c._








I adore this place!!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have posted some questions about nightweaning and, largely, the responses I got were respectful while still being honest about their opinions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "Personally, I wouldn't nightwean in that situation. Here's why." This is a respectful reply because it respects the fact that people make different decisions in different situations, and everyone is entitled to that. In fact, that was essentially stafl's response to me, and I took her opinion to heart.

However, it's quite different to post something like, "I believe in putting a baby's needs first. Why would you want to nightwean? Just keep nursing her at night. Her needs are more important than yours." This post is not very respectful IMO because it makes assumptions about the poster that aren't necessarily true.

I think some people here lose sight of the fact that there IS NOT ONE ABSOLUTE way to parent that applies to every situation. Sure, I have a certain philosophy about my parenting, and it tends to jive with MDC or I wouldn't be here. But do I believe that my parenting style is inherently superior to all other parent's styles? Well, I certainly try not to.

If we can just approach discussions from the standpoint of honestly telling the respective posters what we think in answer to their posts, while trying to be respectful of the fact that, gasp, we may not have all of the answers ourselves, I would think we couldn't go wrong.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

"A ff mama is NOT going to get support for ff'ing."

Whoa! That's really a bit much for me. My babies have never had formula but I see no reason to withhold support from my friends, or strangers, who choose to formula feed. I wish it were prescription only and that better education were available and that more mothers breastfed, but it would be pretty obnoxious of me to assume she's not making the best choice for herself and her baby. I also resent the implications, common on these boards lately, that if one does not follow a certain set of protocols one is not "AP." I would suggest some read real attachment theory, such as John Bowlby's A Secure Base, which makes it clear bonding and attachment are about the relationship between mother and infant. As though someone whose baby sleeps in a crib or nightweans or gets a bottle of formula at night is therefore not securely attached!

Even LLL will give clear advice on how best to wean a baby of any age, and in my experience of knowing leaders, in a respectful, friendly manner, with no argument or derision.

This "AP" label is getting a bit dogmatic lately. I have even had it suggested to me that I read the magazine and get a better sense of what it stands for! But I have issues of _Mothering_ back to 1986 and I don't expect this sort of comment to be made by those representing this community. Is it, in fact, a community? Where's the "moderate" in "moderator" these days?

"If we can just approach discussions from the standpoint of honestly telling the respective posters what we think in answer to their posts, while trying to be respectful of the fact that, gasp, we may not have all of the answers ourselves, I would think we couldn't go wrong. "

Right on, KristiMetz!


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "Personally, I wouldn't nightwean in that situation. Here's why." This is a respectful reply because it respects the fact that people make different decisions in different situations, and everyone is entitled to that. In fact, that was essentially stafl's response to me, and I took her opinion to heart.

However, it's quite different to post something like, "I believe in putting a baby's needs first. Why would you want to nightwean? Just keep nursing her at night. Her needs are more important than yours." This post is not very respectful IMO because it makes assumptions about the poster that aren't necessarily true.


You said it exactly. The tone of some of the replies re: nightweaning has been rather harsh (IMO). There are circumstances that come about where people cannot do things in the optimal way. There just needs to be some give. It would be interesting, to say the least, to put some of the posters with all-or-nothing stances in these circumstances and see if they would soften a little bit (not just on the nightweaning issue, but on c/b, ff, etc). At least they would understand and be a little more compassionate. And I think that's all we are looking for. If you can't support, fine, but say it gently.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo*
The tone of some of the replies re: nightweaning has been rather harsh (IMO). There are circumstances that come about where people cannot do things in the optimal way.

I think it's worth pointing out as well that, while most of us feel that having your kids sleep with you and nurse on demand until they are at least a few years old is the ideal, our culture is no longer set up in a way that supports that.

It used to be that when we had babies, there was a village of women to hand them off to... practically everyone in the village handled the baby at some point during the day. There was a huge network of support that no longer exists.

Consequently, we're all trying to go it alone, but still provide that natural environment for our babies. Sometimes it is just not possible to do all of the things we want to do.

I desperately wanted (and want) to feed my baby 100% breastmilk, and never have him even SEE a bottle. But I've had breast reduction surgery and, consequently, it's simply not to be.

Lots of women on this board are in the position that they can't provide the ideal environment for their children, and it's like we all feel like we have to hide. We shouldn't feel that way - there should be tolerance, compassion and respect for all of us, because we have as much a right to be here as anyone.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.


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## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I think it's worth pointing out as well that, while most of us feel that having your kids sleep with you and nurse on demand until they are at least a few years old is the ideal, our culture is no longer set up in a way that supports that.

It used to be that when we had babies, there was a village of women to hand them off to... practically everyone in the village handled the baby at some point during the day. There was a huge network of support that no longer exists.

Consequently, we're all trying to go it alone, but still provide that natural environment for our babies. Sometimes it is just not possible to do all of the things we want to do.

I desperately wanted (and want) to feed my baby 100% breastmilk, and never have him even SEE a bottle. But I've had breast reduction surgery and, consequently, it's simply not to be.

Lots of women on this board are in the position that they can't provide the ideal environment for their children, and it's like we all feel like we have to hide. We shouldn't feel that way - there should be tolerance, compassion and respect for all of us, because we have as much a right to be here as anyone.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Kay,
You are my HERO! You rock! Such a mature, articulate post of everything I am feeling but unable to post.


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

KristiMetz-
I had a BR when I was 15, and feel so grateful every time I nurse that I can almost meet ds's milk needs. We've supplemented a bottle a day since day 9 but he had *thankfully* no nipple confusion or anything like that. I feel guilty every time I buy formula, but I am so thankful OTOH that I can feed him mama milk at all.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Same thing here. If some says they think its time, baby needs it, etc... about nightweaning is that necessarily a request for only night-weaning supportive advice. Many times, I think people are just trying to verbalize their feelings and are looking for any kind of advice or SUPPORT for what they feel, but may not be supported by their doctor, their mother...

Exactly. Sometimes people go through rough times and need to verbalize that, but are seeking support that can only be found among others who went through the same thing and worked it out.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I agree that we all have our (often strongly held) opinions and there is no reason to back down from passionate beliefs in order to support a mama. Certainly we should stand strong, particularly if it is something important, like things we feel are harmful to babies. I do think, though, that it is more supportive to simply say what you believe and/or what you do. Model your beliefs. Acting incredulous that someone could even consider doing otherwise, is not, IMHO, supportive. There may, as well, be times that it is better to bite our tongues and say nothing other than sympathetic listening. People may even come to share our opinions in their own good time and ways.


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## mattjule (Nov 6, 2003)

Lately I have found that some stauch supporters of their personal views use threads as platforms instead of support. Saying what you have done in a superior tone and implying that what the mama is asking is inherently wrong is NOT support. It does not help anyone find a solution. It only succeeds in making someone feel bad. And I don't believe that is what MDC is about.

I have written threads, asking a theoretical question like "What can I expect of my dc in such and such circumstance", trying to find a general consensus of what is appropriate developmentally and I often get responses where posters make assumptions about my parenting/what goes on in my home based on my short synopsis of a situation. They do not provide ANY answer to my question, simply question my parenting when they know very little about my parenting. AND I have not implemented the behavior in question. That is not support. That is not advice. That is attacking someone because you THINK (not know) that they are doing something you would not do with your children and your family in your situation.

From everything I understand, AP is about adapting your parenting to meet the needs of your child and your situation. Last I knew it wasn't a strict code of conduct. I think we have a right to be offended by posts that imply such things. If you aren't being constructive or supportive, you shouldn't post.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I think it is important that we not try to read between lines and pull out things as implications. I'll repeat my earlier post:

Quote:

I think one of the problems here, and in many such threads, is that when an individual member writes about her situation other members take it as their own, based on a single point, when in fact circumstances vary greatly. So while replies to the OP speak to the OP's conveyed situation and desire, others reading the thread take that personally and take issue with the advice given, which was not really intended for them.

Every one of us has different circumstances and children with different needs. If you need advice and support for your specific situation then you would be better served by starting a thread of your own.

Please do not come into a discussion with preconceived lines that define support. You can certainly ignore the advice and words that you feel do not help you help yourself and your family. But sometimes those words will be of help if we give them consideration. Let's not block them out.

Mothering and MDC is "both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members."

Sometimes advice may seem to be one-sided. Perhaps it is a response to a post that feels as if it speaks mostly of one side's need. So the "fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child" will come forth in some posts while the "gentle supporter of the parents" will come forth in others. Balance should be the aim and usually a thread of posts with a variety of input can help us achieve that balance in applying the advice and encouragement offered, without accusing individual posters of lack of support and understanding for one side of the circumstance or taking any advice against your desire as an accusation of not being "AP enough".

It's true - when things aren't working out something has to change. At MDC members try to support and encourage a mama to find ways to make it work. I think that's what we're all here for.
If someone is flaming or attacking you should report that. But simply posting something that doesn't jive with what you'd like to hear or what you expect in the way of advice is not necessarily a flame or an attack. I have seen too many members accuse others of flaming or attacking when nothing of the sort - in our definition and rules and guidelines view - has happened. Perhaps there's a need to step back and measure whether you (general you) are taking things too personally or negatively.

Let's also accept some direct responsibility in agreeing to disagree with what we read that we don't care for. If you post in response to argue a person's input or to say how you are offended or feel unsupported then you are not doing that. You are arguing in disagreement. The 'agree to disagree' response would be to say "Thank you for your input but I don't feel it helps my particular situation". Or something like that.

To engage in disagreement can be an informative and beneficial discussion and is perfectly fine here, when done appropriately. But if you're going to disagree it would be for everyone's benefit to do so with a positive discussion as the aim. And anything you perceive as a personal slight should go private.

And of course some members need to keep in mind that there's often a distraught mama on the receiving end of their advice and a baby that is in the center of the issue. If the intent is to encourage what's best for the baby as well as help the mama then kind words and loads of suppportive hugs and considerate advice go a long way in putting forth your passionate belief.

Now I will close this thread and remind everyone of our policy in this regard:

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread.


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