# i have a crisis (long and pissed off and sad)



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

and i need help. I have no idea what to do. Ya'll know that I am an ap, feminist mama. There are no fashion/"women's" magazines in my home. I have done my best to shield jade-who just turned 7, from this girl destroying culture we live in. She is mostly tv free, no actual tv, only dvd's approved by me, once or twice a week. No Aquamarine, Hannah Montana, Bratz dolls, or any other crap like that. She has never seen MTV. I am always buying her books with strong, positive female role models. We read about Mia Hamm and Eleanor Roosevelt and the real Pocahontas. She reads the American Girl books, and nancy Drew. We listen to the Indigo Girls and Ani DiFranco and Michael Franti (of course







). I praise her for her kindness and humor and intelligence and her strong, healthy and capable body. She has only gone to very small and very liberal/progressive, crunchy schools, and her friends come from homes with strong, feminist, like minded mamas.

So please please please tell me why my amazing little girl had a complete meltdown this morning, and refused to wear an outfit I picked out for her because it "made her look fat, and she doesn't want to look fat."









She spent 3 weeks in Iowa right after Christmas with her dad. (he has been in iowa much of the last year because we opened another call center there.) She got back a little over a week ago. Last week I noticed that she kept tying and retying this dress she was wearing-when i asked her why, she said "because when I tie it really tight it makes me look skinny." I was horrified and shocked, and didn't know what to say. I called her dad, who was equally horrified, and in typical wade fashion, though he was as upset as I was, basically said I should ignore it in hopes that it would go away, to not make a big deal out of it cause that would make it worse. (sort of like if we ignored the fact that we lived as nothing but roommates for the last 8 years of our 10 year relationship, that too would magically disappear...)

While it is largely irrelevant, I feel like I should point out that Jade is in fact, extremely thin, and has been since birth. She has her father's body type-long and thin, eats everything in sight and never puts on a pound, just gets taller. I am only pointing this out to make the case that I am pretty sure noone has EVER told her she looked fat in anything, that the source of this just can't be her own weight, and some mean comment about it by a classmate or something. If anything, the collective body police would make mean "you are too skinny" comments.

I think it is obvious that she heard some negative fat comments while she was in Iowa, because this started the moment she got back. wade has a 17 year old very mainstream niece there that Jade spent quite a bit of time with-a cheerleader, incredibly teenybopper, hang out at the mall and listen to jessica simpson, boy crazy type chick, who I can totally see saying something like "oh my god, I look so fat in this". And while I should feel sorry for her, cause she is just as much a victim of our body and looks obsessed society-right now I just want to strangle her.







:









I will say that she gets an inordinate amount of attention from strangers that is focused on her looks. She always has, and it only gets more pronounced with each passing year. And it is even more intense with the Dakota Fanning thing-last week we were literally chased down the street by a group of teenage girls who thought she really was Dakota, who then gushed and gushed about how pretty she is. There has always been a lot of "you should be a movie star/model/blah blah blah" thing going on with her-which is why i have always been careful to praise her for all of her other qualities.

I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter where this comes from, it only matters how I deal with it. And frankly, I have no idea how. It is the last thing on earth I really thought I would have to deal with, especially at this age. I hate this fucking culture that has managed to sink its claws into my daughter, despite my doing everything I could to shield it from her, and I have no idea how to drag those claws out. Does she need a therapist? Is she going to get an eating disorder? omg, I have spent all morning bawling, which is SO not like me. I spoke to her teacher when I dropped her off this morning, and I could barely speak I was crying so hard.

Short of buying a houseboat and living on it in the middle of the ocean until she is 20, what the hell am I supposed to do?


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

Hugs mama.The best thing you can do is nip the body image thing in the bud.I remember watching a pbs documrntary with my dd years ago about anorexia and body image.The point that stood out to both of us was that the model type ideal is actually a freak of nature,less than 1% of the population has it.
I spent a lot of time pointing out healthy looking people,and "oh look that one's too skinny" type of comments.We actually saw a lady with severe anoexria in the pet store,looked like a walking corpse...
Sad to say she still went through the teenage skinny phase.
Sometimes deserted islands sound good......


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

I have no fricking clue, but I thought you needed one of these







, though I don't see you as a needing-a-hug kind of mama









I will say that this very thing frightens the pants off me, and my DD has only just turned 3. I'll be paying close attention to what advise the wise mamas around here have.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I think this is a clue that it is time to start talking more in-depth about these issues.

We can only do so much to protect our dc from them, no matter what we ban from our houses. She lives in this culture, so there is no protecting her from it... at least not beyond pre-school.

So now she's started to process it. So now its time to talk about it. To start talking, in an age approprate way of course, about fat and skinny and different body types and all that. Maybe even about how advertising works, on a real rudimentary level.

Now that she is "seeing" these things in the world, you have to help her start challenging it.

What a difficult transition, huh?

It must have been so awful to hear that. But it just means that you shift into the next phase. You have kept the awful stuff out of your house, you have shown her positive role models, you have built that foundation. But now she is out in the world more, yes? So you move into the phase of helping her process what she gets exposed to.

Sigh. It sucks that our culture is still so toxic in this way.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

Ask her straight up where she heard someone say things like that. I think you are right that she picked it up somewhere, you just need to find out where. I think you have done all that you can to shield your daughter from these terrible things, in fact you've done an EXCELLENT job from your descriptions! Then once you find out, a serious talk with her dad is in order- it is just as much his responsibility as yours to protect your daughter from this garbage-thinking.


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## absinthe (Mar 16, 2004)

Maybe I could share your houseboat? My not quite six y.o. dd is breaking my heart lately. Our situation is similar to yours, homeschooled, no t.v., the girliest magazine around here is mother jones and yet lately she has said she NEEDS make-up because her " lips aren't the prettiest" and that she "doesn't look cute" in an outfit. I literally don't even own a lipstick. Is it too late to put her in a bubble? I am at a loss lately as to how I can protect her more. I am truly heartsick...She's not even six.


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## claras_mom (Apr 25, 2006)

I think that the bigger deal you make of it, the bigger it will seem to her.

I know....totally not the easy thing to do. But you've protected her from the world, and the world got in anyway. You can't turn back the clock. So face it with her. Without diminishing these feelings--which may well just be aping an older relative, and will pass--let the moments pass lightly. If they don't pass, then talk to her about it--turn the whole thing into learning moments.

Above all, trust in your strong, smart girl to figure out what's real and important and what's not.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

I think there is no way to keep our kids from this forever. You can create a very positive and wonderful home without any focus on weight and appearance, but it is still going to trickle in by other means... so no matter what you do, the focus in the mainstream is so much that it just can't be helped. Like going to the grocery store and seeing all the tabloids while waiting to check out talk abouot who is skinny and who has gained weight and become "fat".

So, I guess I would try to talk with her about it all rather than ignore it. Talk about body image in general. Talk about her concerns and let her get them out in a healthy way. Talk about your feelings about her concerns. Talk about why you don't want her to worry about her weight and why you want her to have a healthy body image. Just talk and love, I think that is the very best thing you can do.


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## Penelope (Jul 22, 2003)

This is a time to work with her on identifying and uncoding social messages. She'll hear about 'fat' again and again, it's part of our world/culture, and if she's started to use the language you describe, she's taken notice of this.

Brief example: there's a stupid yogurt commercial that plays the tune "itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini" and portrays a woman pining over an ugly swimsuit and eating yogurt to lose weight. The voice-over is terrible. My 6yo dd was watching this recently, and I watched it with her, and then we had a brief talk about how dumb it would be to spend your days worrying about your swimsuit and eating yogurt when you could be eating yummier food and doing things you wanted to do, like artwork or riding your bike. She was attentive, I was brief, and now we have a little conversation about it when the commercial comes on.

Maybe you do this already. But it might be time to start being more intentional and aggressive about it.

FWIW, I don't think she needs a therapist or has an eating disorder. She sounds like she's trying out a bit of dialogue she heard, and your reaction will help her to think it through and reject it.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I agree with what Penelope and others have said, but I often find myself feeling stressed and unsure what to say that won't make things worse when my daughter is saying things I can't believe. I'm sure you'll do a great job with this situation though.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saintmom* 
The point that stood out to both of us was that the model type ideal is actually a freak of nature,less than 1% of the population has it.









:







Thanks for calling me a freak. You're about the 10000th person to do it in my life. People feel absolutely uninhibited in bashing skinny people - as though we're the enemy. I would love to see a muscular size 6-10 be what is idolized in our culture so the attention would get off us 0-4's. I get sooooooooooooooo tired of being lumped in with the 'anorexic' crowd. I have always been 20% underweight and I have always eaten like a horse (and if someone says I'm lucky my head is really going to explode). I am always working hard to get back onto the charts - up to a 17% BMI, etc.

BASHING SKINNY PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION!! Yes Paris Hilton is likely unhealthy as are most of the underweight models, but teaching your children to look down on people for their weight - under OR over, is not the answer. Teach them to admire athletic bodies! Teach them to admire image confidence! Teach them to admire comfort with self! Teach them to admire originality!

/rant







:

eta: sorry not on topic for the OP


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)




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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

I would love to have some dialogue about this. I am also a feminist, AP mama with a seven year old girl. Same no commercial TV, no magazines except for knitting mags, no barbies, etc.. Except what my daughter told me last week wasn't about body image. She actually said "chores and laundry and cooking and stuff are for women to do." The thing is, this wasn't an opinion, it was more like an observation. She has no real life examples telling her differently. The majority of my friends are single moms with totally MIA daddies. The married couples I know do not exemplify equal distribution of household duties.. so I've reached this horrible conclusion that I can talk to her about equality, I can read her books about it, sing songs about it, but life is telling her differently. It breaks my heart.









Got room on that boat?


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## goodcents (Dec 19, 2002)

love to you mama - no words of wisdom just yet - but i am thinking of you.


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Our family is more mainstream in terms of TV watching and things now that the kids are older, but I have found that there is a lot of opportunity there to talk about what messages are being sent and why we can and should reject them. Dd is 11, and we watch American Idol, and talk about being careful to judge someone on just how they look or talk. Dd loves Hannah Montana and Cheetah Girls, and we use those opportunities to discuss what a good role model for girls can be, why it's silly to spend all your time obsessing about clothes and food. We praise dd often for her creativity, her generosity, her intelligence and her athleticism. I listen a lot to what she and her friends are talking about, how they are dealing with their changing bodies. We talk about making healthy food choices while still enjoying lots of different kinds of foods, even sweets. Dd herself actually seems to have a very good body image right now.

I know it is so incredibly painful to see this particular culture-shark sink its teeth into your child. It so frustrating and feels so much like a losing battle, but you are so wonderfully aware, so capable of hearing the deeper message she's sending you ("Mom, do I need to join in this body-slamming culture to be accepted?"), that you will guide her to safer waters.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I don't have any advice to add but didn't want to read and not post, because I love you







: You're an awesome mama, one I look up to, I know you can handle this. Really I know you can.


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claras_mom* 
I think that the bigger deal you make of it, the bigger it will seem to her.

I know....totally not the easy thing to do. But you've protected her from the world, and the world got in anyway. You can't turn back the clock. So face it with her. Without diminishing these feelings--which may well just be aping an older relative, and will pass--let the moments pass lightly. If they don't pass, then talk to her about it--turn the whole thing into learning moments.

Above all, trust in your strong, smart girl to figure out what's real and important and what's not.









: Excellent advice.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I don't mean to be rude to please don't take this wrong.
How do you feel about your body? If you don't like yours she could be catching an undercurrent of that.

IMO making a big deal out of it will make it a bigger deal to her. But yet it does need to be talked about but not to the point of driving her further into the new phase.

Also I would ask her point blank what she and that niece talked about. Or where did she get these ideas.








to you

We have got 3 girls and now seeing what we have to look forward to







:


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, I'll go out on a limb and say you should be grateful to have it come now while you're so close and she's so young and open. Use it as a jumping off point. Talk about it. Unless you move onto that houseboat







she will be exposed to it. Ask her why and where and how she thinks her cousin feels. Look at those nasty magazines and talk about why they sell? How are they airbrushed? Then, look at the pix of the same girls on drugs/drunk and getting DUIs and checking into rehab.

My kids see pictures of Iraq on the paper & we use it to talk about war and guns and church, etc. I want them to see both sides of every issue and be able to make sound choices.

And, yeah, my neighbor is the crunchiest person in the WHOLE entire world and she has a little "girly girl." NO idea how/when/where that happened. But, that little girly girl can toss some snowpants on over her dress and totally kick little boy butt at every activity.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
She actually said "chores and laundry and cooking and stuff are for women to do." The thing is, this wasn't an opinion, it was more like an observation.

Yeah, that's scary.







We're lucky b/c our best friends have a SAHD & a powerhouse Mom.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 







:







Thanks for calling me a freak. You're about the 10000th person to do it in my life. People feel absolutely uninhibited in bashing skinny people - as though we're the enemy. I would love to see a muscular size 6-10 be what is idolized in our culture so the attention would get off us 0-4's. I get sooooooooooooooo tired of being lumped in with the 'anorexic' crowd. I have always been 20% underweight and I have always eaten like a horse (and if someone says I'm lucky my head is really going to explode). I am always working hard to get back onto the charts - up to a 17% BMI, etc.

BASHING SKINNY PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION!! Yes Paris Hilton is likely unhealthy as are most of the underweight models, but teaching your children to look down on people for their weight - under OR over, is not the answer. Teach them to admire athletic bodies! Teach them to admire image confidence! Teach them to admire comfort with self! Teach them to admire originality!

/rant







:

eta: sorry not on topic for the OP

I disagree. This IS on topic. Somebody suggested looking at the various body types of people they see in public and comment on the ones who are "too skinny." I think this is a terrible idea. We don't know that person's health history or life story!

I beleive that body acceptance is NOT about bashing skinny people and idolizing "healthy looking athletic" people or idolizing "fat" people. Body acceptance is about accepting that we all have different body types and shapes and one isn't "better" or "worse" than another.

Maybe "model thin" women make up less than 1% of the population- I haven't studied it myself so I don't know the actual numbers. But there's nothing wrong with being in the bottom .5% and there's nothing wrong with being in the top .5%, as long as you're doing what you can to keep yourself as healthy as possible. Why should somebody be considered a "freak" for being the size and shape she's meant to be?

Nobody is ever "freakishly thin." Some people might be unhealthily underweight, just as some people are heavier than their "ideal weight." Why should either one be considered a "freak"?

Besides, the women wearing a size 0 have something in common with plus-size women like myself- neither of us can get fitted in the regular "ladies" section of the store, and we have to go searching for specialty sizes hidden in distant corners of major stores, or seek out specialty stores entirely.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

I would take a really honest approach with her as she sounds very smart. I would ask where she heard it, tell her my concerns about it, talk to her about health and well being and self-esteem. I did everything I could to protect my daughter, in the end she just LOVED Barbies. I had to give in because it was becoming a daily battle. She had her Barbies, loved them but also knew that they were not based on reality. She has since gotten rid of all her Barbies and now hates her as much as I do. They listen to the main influence in their life. They may go down a divergent path to see what it's all about but with your guidance and insight you will be able to influence her more than anyone else. My daughter is now 15, has a great body image, actually wants to gain weight, and is just all around a great, caring, empathetic, smart, strong, funny and amazing 15 year old that I have a lot of respect for.







It isn't easy when culture collides with our ideals especially in the realm of our children. Please try to remember that you are the biggest influence of her life and that will count for so much!
Wendi


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I have no real advice for you, only a question. Maybe your DD is trying on "dressing fashionably" and is confusing this with "being fat". If she was around an older cousin who is cool, or whatever the young people are saying these days, and the older cousin dresses well in her mind, she is confusing looking fat with having clothes that are attractive on her body type. Maybe the two of you can talk about how clothes look on different figures (removing the word fat) and how even tremendously skinny people can't pull off certain styles because they just aren't flattering. I wish my mom had done this for me because I have large boobies even when I am underweight for my height. -Think 15 pounds underweight and a C cup. My mom, on the other hand is model thin and an A cup so I was just embarassed about my breasts. Since my bodytype (and skin tone! what a combination) is really atypical, I had a hard time finding what clothes looked good on my body which made me feel fat when in reality I just needed different clothes.

I don't know if 7 is too young to talk about fashion but I think I would tell DD that the word she is looking for is flattering, not fat. Or we could move to a deserted island.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I'd be crushed as well.


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## Geofizz (Sep 25, 2003)

Maybe to say what's already been said in a different way. I think your dd just gave you the message that it's time to shift from protecting her and sheilding her from our cultural messages to arming her to work within the culture of body-image obsessed girls.

How to do this? Yes, first examine the messages she's getting, and when you note bad messages (ug, that stupid yogurt ad...) talk about them. What's the message? What's our goal? Is it to be thin? Healthy? Approved by others? Our perception of what approval from others requires? It doesn't have to be all one long conversation, just point these out. Same thing for pointing out positive body images: "Look at how strong she is. Look at how confident she is. Gentle/loving/etc."

I'm currently reading Growing a Girl. I like it a lot because of the strategies in there for _arming_ daughters to deal with cultural stereotypes and norms before they hit hard when teenagers.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I think she's just trying out a different way of thinking. She likely idealized her cousin, simply because that's what young girls do when they spend time around older girls.

As long as you continue to emphasize the important stuff, she'll get through this.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I disagree. This IS on topic. Somebody suggested looking at the various body types of people they see in public and comment on the ones who are "too skinny." I think this is a terrible idea. We don't know that person's health history or life story!

I beleive that body acceptance is NOT about bashing skinny people and idolizing "healthy looking athletic" people or idolizing "fat" people. Body acceptance is about accepting that we all have different body types and shapes and one isn't "better" or "worse" than another.

Maybe "model thin" women make up less than 1% of the population- I haven't studied it myself so I don't know the actual numbers. But there's nothing wrong with being in the bottom .5% and there's nothing wrong with being in the top .5%, as long as you're doing what you can to keep yourself as healthy as possible. Why should somebody be considered a "freak" for being the size and shape she's meant to be?

Nobody is ever "freakishly thin." Some people might be unhealthily underweight, just as some people are heavier than their "ideal weight." Why should either one be considered a "freak"?

Besides, the women wearing a size 0 have something in common with plus-size women like myself- neither of us can get fitted in the regular "ladies" section of the store, and we have to go searching for specialty sizes hidden in distant corners of major stores, or seek out specialty stores entirely.

Thank you. It IS almost impossible to get pants...

Seriously, I have frequently gotten attitude from other women as though I am thin deliberately to piss them off or make them feel fat. This is my body shape, always has been. So if you see me eating healthy food, don't say "you don't need to eat like that". Thin people are allowed to eat healthy food too, we are not doing it to make you feel guilty.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm sorry.







:
Talk about it with her as much as you and her are comfortable with.


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Something else I thought of . . .

Part of our culture is that women connect around body issues, primarily body-shaming. I think it's become such an inbedded part of what women do when they are together that it almost goes unnoticed. So many times, when I go out to eat or get together around food with women, it's "Oh, I really shouldn't eat that" or "I had to wear my fat pants today" or conversation that revolves around diets, body shape, exercise. The problem with all of that is that girls begin to see that this is what women talk about, this is how women socialize. I know this happens a lot at our family gatherings, and I try hard to steer the conversation in other directions. We are SO much more than our bodies, and it seriously pains me to see intelligent, interesting women demean themselves as part of some culturally-accepted social practice.

I hope that dd can learn that "Do I look fat?" is NOT a conversation starter, and I hope I can continue to learn to accept my own body and not make negative judgments about it in front of her.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I have a friend that grew up morbidly obese. She finally lost weight but her trying not to curse her children with her battle she accidently caused them.

I don't think avoiding the issue is completely the key. We talk about being healthy.

I use to be underweight. I could eat anything. This lead me to being overweight because my body changed.

I was shamed for being to thin. My overweight sister use to tell me guys wouldn't date me because I was to thin. My mom joked I was made for speed my sister comfort. All these made me feel bad about being how I was naturally. It wasn't until I had my first child I came to appriciate my body just the way it is.

I have worked on my body and to get healthy weight. I have made family changes and explained why. That we need to do things to be healthy.

The "fat" thing has creeped in through neighbors. We now have my girls friend that has type 2 diabetes. Which adds to our discussions about being healthy and what is healthy since diabetes runs on both sides of my children's family.

We discuss that being thin isn't always healthy. My brother is naturally thin but was lucky he had a panic attack. His cholestrol was out of this world. He was in his late 20's and had blocked arteries found in 50 year olds men. Were my then very overweight self cholestrol was just fine.

I have talked to my children that I most likely will never fit those weight charts. It would take me starving to get there and that wouldn't be healthy.


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## bullfrog (Feb 19, 2003)

I'm not of the 'shield them from society' tribe - but I can respect someone for making that choice - it's pretty harsh sometimes.

DD really doesn't have a humongous group of friends at school because she chooses to not hang out with the girls who insist on "chasing the boys all the time and not even trying to be friends with them" crowd. She will dig in the earth with her friends as easily as she'll dress dolls with them. She acknowledges their differences but looks for the commonalities. But she is baffeled by the girls who argue with each other over the cuteness of their attire or their insistance on being "really bossy".

I like to look at our society like I look at the ocean. There's some really yuck stuff in there, some really dangerous stuff in there, but some really great stuff too. My job as parent is to wade in there with her, to show her the fun stuff show her how to surf and swim and dive. But of course, SAFETY FIRST; when to hold her breath, and how to be strong when the waves are crashing in, to stay away from sting-rays and jelly fish and to swim hard if she were to see a shark. And most of all, how to get back to shore if she needs to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 







:







Thanks for calling me a freak. You're about the 10000th person to do it in my life. People feel absolutely uninhibited in bashing skinny people - as though we're the enemy. I would love to see a muscular size 6-10 be what is idolized in our culture so the attention would get off us 0-4's. I get sooooooooooooooo tired of being lumped in with the 'anorexic' crowd. I have always been 20% underweight and I have always eaten like a horse (and if someone says I'm lucky my head is really going to explode). I am always working hard to get back onto the charts - up to a 17% BMI, etc.

BASHING SKINNY PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION!! Yes Paris Hilton is likely unhealthy as are most of the underweight models, but teaching your children to look down on people for their weight - under OR over, is not the answer. Teach them to admire athletic bodies! Teach them to admire image confidence! Teach them to admire comfort with self! Teach them to admire originality!

/rant







:

eta: sorry not on topic for the OP

I don't think that's off topic at all. There is no point in pointing out people in public and calling them either 'too fat' or 'too skinny'. We can't possibly know their situation and what if your child turns out to be one of the two? How are they going to feel about themselves then?


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
Ask her why and where and how she thinks her cousin feels.

My 5yo has started talking about being fat too and it's incredibly disturbing.

I think you might be on the right track here for how to approach the isssue. The other day my 5yo DD said she didn't want to go to her dancing class because it is "boring". I was *really* frustrated, and then I got the idea to ask her what "boring" means,. She didn't have any idea.

So maybe instead of just asking her to empathize with the cousin, you could ask her what she thinks "fat" means. What does she think will happen if she "looks fat"?

On the other hand, I'm living barely above poverty level while my ultra-materialistic MIL who ditched her social-activist first husband has leveraged her slim figure into a second marriage with a multi-millionaire. It's clear to me that at some point (most likely the teen-age years) grandma and I are going to be locked into a struggle for my daughter's soul-- and grandma is living proof that good looks can be worth a great deal in terms of of money and social climbing.

--AmyB


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## brookely ash (Apr 9, 2003)

mama g, i'm so sorry you are going through this.







s jade is such a smart girl, and has such a strong mama that i'm sure she'll still be a strong feminist one day!

i dont have any good words of wisdom, but i have two little boys and i'm reading this thread with great interest. i want them to treat women w/ respect and honesty as they grow up into men. i do not want them to buy into it. so thank you for sharing this as its such an important topic.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bullfrog* 
I like to look at our society like I look at the ocean. There's some really yuck stuff in there, some really dangerous stuff in there, but some really great stuff too. My job as parent is to wade in there with her, to show her the fun stuff show her how to surf and swim and dive. But of course, SAFETY FIRST; when to hold her breath, and how to be strong when the waves are crashing in, to stay away from sting-rays and jelly fish and to swim hard if she were to see a shark. And most of all, how to get back to shore if she needs to.

very cool


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyB* 
my ultra-materialistic MIL who ditched her social-activist first husband has leveraged her slim figure into a second marriage with a multi-millionaire.

ewww that's a tough one


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

i feel ya...my DS has started on the "that makes me look fat!" thing, and i really don't know where it comes from







:


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

That's a tough one, sounds like maybe she idealized her cousin that she was hanging out with and wants to be like her - she may have looked in the mirror one too many times saying 'Eww I look fat' just as a matter of slang, perhaps not even meaning it. Sad that it's part of teen culture to do that but it is.

I'm with the "don't think you can shield her" from this group. You can use this as an example to start a dialogue about body image. It doesn't matter if she is underweight, overweight or just right - what's important is that she is happy with her body just the way it is. It's also important that she help other women to enjoy their body shapes as well. Start a discussion about how it's sad when a woman isn't happy with the body she's been blessed with and wastes time trying to change.

Good luck my friend, I know you'll both come through this stronger than ever


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah* 
I think this is a clue that it is time to start talking more in-depth about these issues..............

Now that she is "seeing" these things in the world, you have to help her start challenging it.

I agree with this (and the rest of ashera's post). My 9yo DS actually said "I need to start running every morning 'cause I'm getting a little fat" that other day. WTH?!









I have no idea where he got that idea. I seriously doubt any "fat" comments were directed at him, but then again, 3rd graders aren't always the most logical little darlings when it comes to playground insults, so who knows







.

He and I had a long conversation about
1) him NOT being fat, or even a little chubby, really

2) that the focus should be on being HEALTHY and not being a certain size - all people are built differently and what really matters is how well their body works, not how it looks

3) finally, I actually think a daily walk or run with him would be a lot of fun and it would help us both get in better, healthier shape - so we're planning on doing that once it starts getting warmer and, hopefully, by summer we'll be able to run all the way to the soccer fields without stopping.

After that conversation, we've talked about exercise-type stuff, but no more "fat" comments, so hopefully he got the point.

I would talk to your DD about how you feel and the type of attitude you want her to have. In the end, I think what you really want is a self-assurred, strong young woman, not a sheltered child. Right? I'd use this as an opportunity for a real woman-to-woman body image conversation. I actually don't even think it matters much where she heard it - but that she's obviously having some difficulty processing it somehow. She's going to be confronted with a lot of this kind of stuff later in life. I'd focus on trying to help her build up a strong emotional resistance, so that she's got a mini-MamaG arsenal at the ready when she gets to high school


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## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
and i need help. I have no idea what to do. Ya'll know that I am an ap, feminist mama. There are no fashion/"women's" magazines in my home. I have done my best to shield jade-who just turned 7, from this girl destroying culture we live in. She is mostly tv free, no actual tv, only dvd's approved by me, once or twice a week. No Aquamarine, Hannah Montana, Bratz dolls, or any other crap like that. She has never seen MTV. I am always buying her books with strong, positive female role models. We read about Mia Hamm and Eleanor Roosevelt and the real Pocahontas. She reads the American Girl books, and nancy Drew. We listen to the Indigo Girls and Ani DiFranco and Michael Franti (of course







). I praise her for her kindness and humor and intelligence and her strong, healthy and capable body. She has only gone to very small and very liberal/progressive, crunchy schools, and her friends come from homes with strong, feminist, like minded mamas.

I wanted to first give you kudos to how your raising your dd, its awesome !! im a fan of Ani myself as well as other feminist related bands, ie bikini kill, L7, etc.







not many out there and its alwaysg great to know some







.

as for the dress do you suppose maybe that she just didnt like it and maybe said what might of popped into her mind at first?

good luck MG


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## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
That's a tough one, sounds like maybe she idealized her cousin that she was hanging out with and wants to be like her - she may have looked in the mirror one too many times saying 'Eww I look fat' just as a matter of slang, perhaps not even meaning it. Sad that it's part of teen culture to do that but it is.









that.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

I always felt fat as a child. I WAS a little chunky, but most of my image problems came from the media. Not just T.V. Even if my family had been television free, I was still exposed to children in school (who had mom's always complaining of being fat, as did they), teachers (who were ALWAYS doing the latest fad diet together), and Channel One (that annoying tv show kids are forced to watch every morning). You do your best to raise your children to be confident, but it takes very little to shake their confidence. My daughter is 9 and has said on a few occasions that she looked fat. I told her that she is healthy (and not by any means fat), and as long as you eat healthy and live a healthy lifestyle that's what matters. I also explained to her that when she looks at other people that she has to understand that someone who appears to be larger may be at their normal weight. Some people require more mass for their genetic makeup, like eskimos. She previously thought that if someone was bigger that meant they overeat and don't exercise.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 







:







Thanks for calling me a freak. You're about the 10000th person to do it in my life. People feel absolutely uninhibited in bashing skinny people - as though we're the enemy. I would love to see a muscular size 6-10 be what is idolized in our culture so the attention would get off us 0-4's. I get sooooooooooooooo tired of being lumped in with the 'anorexic' crowd. I have always been 20% underweight and I have always eaten like a horse (and if someone says I'm lucky my head is really going to explode). I am always working hard to get back onto the charts - up to a 17% BMI, etc.

BASHING SKINNY PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION!! Yes Paris Hilton is likely unhealthy as are most of the underweight models, but teaching your children to look down on people for their weight - under OR over, is not the answer. Teach them to admire athletic bodies! Teach them to admire image confidence! Teach them to admire comfort with self! Teach them to admire originality!

/rant







:

eta: sorry not on topic for the OP


I am kind of with you, Mama, although I don't usually get this irate. But I see where you are coming from. The world tells us we are too skinny all the time. I am always checking how flat my ass looks because I can't get clothes in my shape/size without paying a fortune, hitching up my tops because my shoulders are so narrow. A friend even joked at the wedding that my dh and I would have beautiful, tall, thin, ass-less children! And after my ds was born, my mother (who is as flat-assed as I) came over one day and said "OMG, where is your butt?" It really hurt. So don't beat on us, either, please. Healthy body image should be just that.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

I have often in my life been on the overweight side and was so guilty of skinny prejudice. My mind was completely changed by one friend of mine (and my dh) that were both naturally thin. I was having a conversation with her and she talked about how scared she got as her refridgerator would get empty, she would obssess about if the stores closed or if the power went out. I never had any idea of those sorts of concerns. Then my dh confided in me one day that any time the power goes out it makes him panic that he could run out of food and starve. Wow! That was just such an eye opener. Being overweight I really only worried about not find the right clothes or things like that. Thinking of my dh worrying about starving to death really changed my mind. I now embrace all body types and shapes and realize that we each have our own set of issues and one is not necessarily easier than the other.
Wendi


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Hm, that's scary. There's a good chance it could just blow off, but if she is getting weird attention for her looks and such... there's something about it that sounds more worrisome, like it could "stick". OTOH maybe I'm just picking that up from your worried tone.









When you're less emotional about it, it maybe be a good idea to send a brief nice succinct message to your... niece I think it was? about this issue. Esp if there's any chance they will be spending time together again in the future.

Maybe sit her down and talk to her about how our culture is crazy about fat and eating disorders, and it's very important for her to stay realistic and healthy about this, even if she encounters weird attitudes that people have, and even if her body changes... Not just "you're not fat, honey!" but really about society's eating disorder, the unhealthy mentality. I wouldn't mention the physical things ED'd people do, though, since she is going into a suggestable phase.

It's a huge subject, involving beauty, massive peer pressure even beyond youth, consumerism, health and the ever-difficult self care.

Basically it sounds like she has a really good grounding in this stuff with the ways she's grown up so far. I'm sure it's mostly just a temporary thing she picked up from her cousin... but still, it's worth dealing with it and doing whatever possible to make sure it doesn't stick.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

I think your dd just gave you the message that it's time to shift from protecting her and sheilding her from our cultural messages to arming her to work within the culture of body-image obsessed girls.








I know you're sad to see the outside world creeping into your child's mind, but panic is not going to help. She has to deal with that outside world eventually.

ITA that you should ask exactly what she means with these comments. Find out what she's thinking and how she got there before you protest.

I'm also a skinny person and always have been. That doesn't mean there are no clothes (or hairstyles) that can make certain parts of my body look fatter than they are. When I was 9, I happened to pull back my bangs when looking in a mirror and was surprised to see that the shape of my whole face was really much more attractive IMO than the shape of my face cut off by a straight line 2 inches from the top. When I let the bangs fall back into place, suddenly my cheeks looked round and chubby, almost swollen. Immediately I began pinning back my bangs and letting them grow. I didn't want to wear my hair in a way that made me look fat. Is that so horrible?







: I'm really glad that my mom didn't freak out and think I was betraying my feminist upbringing. (I can't recall if I mentioned the REASON I decided to grow out my bangs.)

I think it's fine to choose fashions that make you look your best, provided they don't hurt you or hamper your activities. If a particular individual looks fatter when wearing a dress with a particular type of waistline and chooses not to wear that style for that reason, I don't think that is any worse than choosing not to wear bright red because it clashes with her skin tone.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

My sister is in the thick of this. My niece will be 10 in july, and she is very physically active, into all kinds of things like soccer and rock-climbing and stuff. However her favorite activity is ballet. She has been in the county ballet's production of the Nutcracker for I think the past 5 years(??) now, and started on pointe this past year. Plus my niece likes all those mainstream little girl icons, like the Olsen twins







and Hillary Duff. She comes to my sister every now and again all sad and says "Mom, [the anorexic Olsen twin] isn't eating again...why?"

My sis and I BOTH have eating disorders and have struggled our entire lives with body image, so needless to say my sister is mildly freaking out.

My sister tries to deprogram my niece by talking to her frequently about the Olsen twin's anorexia and what it means, by talking to her about body image and true health, and by framing exercise in a light that you exercise to feel better, not to lose weight.

Raising girls is so, so hard in this society when it comes to the body image stuff.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Yeah, it's sick. The girl passed on snack because of a diet, wouldn't eat but a carrot or something for lunch... my dd was very concerned. I asked if maybe her mother was on a diet and she was just copying... yes, that was it. I said, "well, she'll probably start getting hungry and eat when she gets home."

I have ALWAYS talked with my dd about the body image stuff, the media-driven aspect of it; and the natural selection aspect of it, and the Mom's-got-her-own-health-problems aspect of it. The topic comes up in some fashion at least several times a week, by either her or me, and we talk it out to a positive learning or affirmation. And that's not too often, because she is being deluged several times a DAY with it in a usually negative way. While there are certainly many more positive ways that the subject comes up nowadays, compared to when I was growing up, there is a really frightening fear/revulsion/permission to openly deride and hate and revile overweight people... and I really, really disapprove of this.

So, we talk about it a lot. I notice that she gets a lot of garbage ideas from other kids at school... and we can't protect them from it... only prepare them to deal with it effectively, successfully.

She also gets a lot of GREAT ideas via school teachers and such, healthy eating stuff, etc. Some schools really make it a big focus and are hammering away at it on our kids.

I have a love/hate with the doll and tv girly girl culture... it sucks in the obvious ways, but, it must be noted that there are a LOT of girls ON tv... when I was little, there weren't so much. Also, here's the silver lining to Bratz and Hannah Montana: the lyrics in the music that is marketed by both is awesome... and I LOVE to hear my daughter sing the words. I've bought her the dolls, and I've bought her the CDs and printed out the lyrics, and had her learn memorization by handwriting the words... I've made it a learning experience. She loves the music, loves to sing, and when the shows come on the tv, she's bouncing around singing... that's pretty great, really. She's DANCING and HARMONIZING and LEARNING EMPOWERING SONGS. So, that's good with me.

All the talking, and listening, has led to what I am proud to say is a really insightful and intelligent young girl, who really NOTICES the deeper or hidden messages of things. And she can be very girly girl, with dance training, so it's easy to express that part of herself totally, with dress up AND dance up. But, she doesn't play with the majority of the girls in her class at recess cause they all will only play a passive role-playing of "house" where one girl runs it all... instead, she gets on the playground and plays with the boys, running around at shadow tag and whatnot, and with the one other girl who feels as she does. "The boys are more fun," and the bossy girl is mean and abusive. (Makes certain girls always be dogs, or children, she's always the "mom," her "boyfriend" always the dad... )

I let her be fully immersed in the culture, tv and all that crap, which it mostly is, but, I am definitely heavy handed about providing the counterpoint.

VF


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have to agree that I think there is really only so much you can do to protect her from the attitudes of our culture.

I mean, think about it... is Nancy Drew fat? I don't think so. Is there any instance in which a fat woman is treated as normal, or equal to skinny women? As a fat gal, I sure can't think of any. You might as well be dead to about 60% of the world if you're a size 24.

I also have to gently ask if she could have gotten an impression from you about weight? I have met many people who believe in moderation and health who are contemptuous toward, or look down on, people who are overweight. I don't think it's conscious, even.

When it comes to body weight, quite honestly I don't know if you could possibly edit out all of the incredibly subtle messages in our culture about this. It's so much a part of us. I think the message is going to get through to her, no matter what. It will be a matter of how you talk to her about it, and the example that you set, which will help her long-term to view this differently.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Thinking of you, mama g.

I agree with all the others who said the only thing we can do for our daughters is talk to them about how sick our culture is about this, starting with billboard/magazine images.

I'm sure she sees it all around her already, it's just that the older cousin gave her a hook into trying it out for herself. Made her realize that this stuff is "cool" and important to real people, even if she doesn't understand it.

You laid a good foundation to start this convo from, and that is the most important thing we can do, I think.

And, OMG, how very true it is that good looks, particularly for women, are so often the ticket to stability and "success" in life, even when they don't realize it themselves.

It's so hard to somehow navigate that issue. Let alone the layers of societal bullshit on top of it.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes* 
T
And, OMG, how very true it is that good looks, particularly for women, are so often the ticket to stability and "success" in life, even when they don't realize it themselves.


i have so often wanted to start a thread here on "pretty privilege", but have been deathly afraid of the reception.

I want to thank everyone so much for their support and great advice, it really means alot.

I'm starting the long slow death march (or bedtime routine, take your pic) but there is alot of things I want to respond to.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
i have so often wanted to start a thread here on "pretty privilege", but have been deathly afraid of the reception.

This would be a FASCINATING thread. Seriously.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
i have so often wanted to start a thread here on "pretty privilege", but have been deathly afraid of the reception.


I would be, too.







That'd probably make the racial privilege threads look like civil academic discourse.







:

Wishing you both the best.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

forgive me poster, for I have skimmed...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
Ya'll know that I am an ap, feminist mama. There are no fashion/"women's" magazines in my home. I have done my best to shield jade-who just turned 7, from this girl destroying culture we live in. She is mostly tv free, no actual tv, only dvd's approved by me, once or twice a week. No Aquamarine, Hannah Montana, Bratz dolls, or any other crap like that. She has never seen MTV. I am always buying her books with strong, positive female role models. We read about Mia Hamm and Eleanor Roosevelt and the real Pocahontas. She reads the American Girl books, and nancy Drew. We listen to the Indigo Girls and Ani DiFranco and Michael Franti (of course







). I praise her for her kindness and humor and intelligence and her strong, healthy and capable body. She has only gone to very small and very liberal/progressive, crunchy schools, and her friends come from homes with strong, feminist, like minded mamas.

Excellent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
what the hell am I supposed to do?

You're already doing it!

She doesn't need therapy.

You don't need to be doing anything different.

Your mama bear arms have a much stronger hold on her than the claws of our culture, but it won't be possibly to raise her in a vacuum.

She will be exposed to other children who dislike their bodies, she will be exposed to adult women who complain about their looks, she will overhear people talking in an elevator about how ridiculous someone's thighs looked in the dress they wore at the office party....

I think rather than trying to put a wall between her and the culture (however ill) that we live in, I'd work on educating her on why our culture is this way, and how she can make choices that help maintain her sense of individuality and confidence, by encouraging conversation about the things you see in the media that unnerve you.


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## Rach (Nov 11, 2003)

((hugs)) mama, I just don't know.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I beleive that body acceptance is NOT about bashing skinny people and idolizing "healthy looking athletic" people or idolizing "fat" people. Body acceptance is about accepting that we all have different body types and shapes and one isn't "better" or "worse" than another.


I totally agree with this. I do think that saintmom didn't mean freak of nature in the way it seemed to come across, but freak is a pejorative term to many so it wasn't a sensitive choice of phrase. I think she was saying that we shouldn't uphold as ideal a body size that is naturally found in a very small percentage of the population. That's a losing proposition for most of us. At the same time, I don't think we should tell the people at the ends of the spectrum that they need to change their size to conform.

My 7 year old daughter is chubbier than some of her friends, and her tummy is a little round. There are times she tells me that she is fat or that her tummy is fat, and usually it's not in a negative way, she's just commenting. I respond honestly sometimes confirming what she has said about being fat. I remember as an adolescent talking and interacting with my nieces and my sister said that we were not supposed to use the word fat around the babies or call them fat because she didn't want them to get a complex. Looking back on it I think that was pretty messed up, but I remember agreeing with it internally, thinking that these kids had a chance not to be fat, as if somehow the power of suggestion would make them so. Back then I wouldn't use the word fat as a descriptive because of how emotionally laden it was, but now I'm all about promoting acceptance so I do use it and I forget how others might be horrified about it.

In fact, I ended up getting into a fight with my sibling and nieces this summer and when we were hashing things out, it turns out that one of the things I had said that was really causing a wedge between us is I said that so and so wasn't skinny. I meant it in the sense of honestly talking about her weight, she wasn't skinny in the sense of being underweight on medical charts, she was within the norms. But it was interpreted quite differently and seen as a grave insult. My sister is also upset that I would call my own child fat, and others have seemed shocked by it also, but I think tiptoeing around the issue and saying "Oh, you're not fat" was devastating to me as a child.

Anyway, I started this response hours ago and never posted it, so I'm not even sure I should at this point.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes* 
I would be, too.







That'd probably make the racial privilege threads look like civil academic discourse.







:

Wishing you both the best.

If Mama G has the ovaries to start one, I'd be interested, too.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

I would get her involved in sports and things that focus on being "Healthy", not "Skinny". I know a lot of friends who have been involved in sports from an early age, and they all tend towards the healthy side, and don't really focus on skinny. They are all naturally skinny just from playing sports, too.

I would also teach her that skinny doesn't equal healthy, and talk to her about eating and being healthy.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

I'm probably one of the least articulate people on these boards.Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.
Body image is a highly charged issue for me,always has been always will."Freak of nature" was actually a quote from someone at a modeling agency on the documentary we saw.Yes it's a snarky way to describe the ideal ffigure but it also puts into context what western women spend so much time trying to acheive.Bottom line,your're either born with that body type or not.
The cultural message is that thin =pretty =success.I'd rather my daughters intenalize healthy=smart=sucess,but it's an uphill battle.If your're naturally thin,lucky you.You'll never have to struggle with a peception of being "fat"only to realize one day you'd been slowly starving yourself to death for years.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saintmom* 
.If your're naturally thin,lucky you.You'll never have to struggle with a peception of being "fat"only to realize one day you'd been slowly starving yourself to death for years.


sadly, not neccessarily true. My dd IS one of those 1%, and is still thinking somehow that she is fat or needs to be thinner.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penelope* 
T
Brief example: there's a stupid yogurt commercial that plays the tune "itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini" and portrays a woman pining over an ugly swimsuit and eating yogurt to lose weight. The voice-over is terrible. My 6yo dd was watching this recently, and I watched it with her, and then we had a brief talk about how dumb it would be to spend your days worrying about your swimsuit and eating yogurt when you could be eating yummier food and doing things you wanted to do, like artwork or riding your bike. She was attentive, I was brief, and now we have a little conversation about it when the commercial comes on.

I just want to say









That is so great.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I
I beleive that body acceptance is NOT about bashing skinny people and idolizing "healthy looking athletic" people or idolizing "fat" people. Body acceptance is about accepting that we all have different body types and shapes and one isn't "better" or "worse" than another.

I agree 100%

How about "People come in different shapes and sizes"


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

subbing

this is a topic very close to my heart. i've struggled with body image & weight my whole life. i can remember my uncle making comments about my getting "fat"







: i can remember sneaking food compulsively when i was about 8 years old









dh & i both feel very strongly about putting a message of *health* across to dd. she sees me exercise & we talk about how it makes my body feel good & makes me less grumpy









thank you, MamaG & Jade for providing the impetus for this thread!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
I didn't want to wear my hair in a way that made me look fat. Is that so horrible?







: I'm really glad that my mom didn't freak out and think I was betraying my feminist upbringing. (I can't recall if I mentioned the REASON I decided to grow out my bangs.)

I think it's fine to choose fashions that make you look your best, provided they don't hurt you or hamper your activities. If a particular individual looks fatter when wearing a dress with a particular type of waistline and chooses not to wear that style for that reason, I don't think that is any worse than choosing not to wear bright red because it clashes with her skin tone.









Envirobecca, I respectfully submit that this attitude is part of the problem... not the solution.

The problem is that a certain body type is seen as BAD... to be avoided... not just different. In your last paragraph you make it clear that looking your best = not looking fat ("it's fine to choose fashions that make you look your best... if an individual looks fatter when wearing a dress", etc.).

If our culture didn't prize skinniness so highly (but in a love/hate resentful sort of way, as some skinny pp's have pointed out) then why would someone with a regular body, either fat skinny or something in between, have to worry about whether a certain haircut or piece of clothing makes that person look a tad larger than they feel they could?

I have to tell you, as a fat person, that I don't personally strive to look "skinny"... that would be foolhardy because no one is going to mistake me for a skinny person!









I look for clothes that make me look NICE. I look for clothes that are flatting, that suit my body, and give me a neat and nice appearance.

So, not everybody thinks of those things when choosing clothes (although obviously my situation is entirely different and my reasons for doing so are situational).

Do you ever wonder why looking your skinniest is the same as looking good? I have a great deal of time to ponder this question. The reason for that is the same reason that I'm frequently treated with contempt, resentment, and sometimes hatred by others... simply because I eat when I'm upset, and consequently I'm rather overweight.

Have you ever seen a bumper sticker that reads "No Fat Chicks"? It has a picture of a fat chick with a circle and a line through it. Do you see the connection between trying to look your "best" (skinniest) and the hatred our culture has of people (women) who are overweight?

And, I don't mean to imply that our physical ideals have any better time of it. They are also told constantly that they are imperfect. And, if they are that close to perfect, since they are the unattainable ideal, our culture hates them and resents them. Much like our culture idealizes women in general, but also hates and must subjugate them.

And also just to clarify, envirobecca, I am not saying you're wrong for wanting to look "less fat" or however you want to put it, which is just a manifestation of our cultural pressure; I'm saying that trying to rationalize that as being OK is wrong.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

No advice.....just lots of love and







:


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

It is starting for boys as well. Just today, my 9 yr ds was crying that he didn't want to go to school because he is ugly.







For him it is not weight, but height. He is a beautiful boy, but a little on the shorter side and just this year is starting to get so self-conscious.

It is heartbreaking to see our beautiful children feel so bad about themselves and it seems to start earlier and earlier. I think childhood/adolescence is a time when developing persons are truely "conscious of self". I mean, it hasn't been that long that they have been able to see themselves as seperate from their mother/family. It is just too bad that in this culture the consciousness shifts to the physical, rather than intellectual or spiritual.

In a way, I also feel it is part of our karma/growth as being a parent. When I hear this gorgeous child talk about how ugly he is, it make me realize that maybe my own negative self-talk is completely inaccurate.

I wish I knew what to say. I think getting kids involved in activities that allow them to feel healthy & empowered is crucial. I seem to recall that you live in FLA, so maybe this isn't an issue for you, but there is definitely a noticable difference in my children's (and my own) esteem in the winter, when we are less active and more snack-y. We've been meaning to join the Y and maybe this thread (and ds's outburst this morning) is the push I needed.

Good luck to all of us! I am finding it much more difficult to navigative the kid years vs baby & toddlerhood.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

KristiMetz, I'm sorry you've faced prejudice, but you're reading it into my post where it isn't.

Allow me to restate:
I think it's fine to choose fashions that make you look your best, provided they don't hurt you or hamper your activities. If a particular individual looks fatter when wearing a dress with a particular type of waistline and chooses not to wear that style for that reason, I don't think that is any worse than choosing not to wear sleeveless tops because they expose the boniness of her shoulders, or choosing not to wear two-piece swimsuits because her ribs are so visible, or choosing not to wear miniskirts because her legs are so thin that a glance in the mirror makes her feel feeble.

Quote:

Do you ever wonder why looking your skinniest is the same as looking good?
Yeah, I often wonder why OTHER PEOPLE think that when I see models and movie stars who are thinner than looks natural FOR THEM and/or have dressed such that they look like they just stepped out of a concentration camp. Myself, I believe that:
1. I look my best when I weigh 5-10 pounds MORE than my body's default weight (where I end up if I don't make a conscious effort to get adequate calories). At that weight I also get sick less often, am less likely to faint when hungry, and feel happier.
2. I look my best when certain extremely thin parts of my body are de-emphasized. Knobby bones poking against translucent skin do not look good, IMO.
3. The most attractive part of my body is my legs, which are NOT particularly thin because I walk a lot and because what fat I have is mostly on my thighs.
4. If looking my skinniest was the same as looking good, then when I do end up wearing something that makes me look really skinny, I would hear, "You look great!" instead of, "Have you been sick?"

Quote:

In your last paragraph you make it clear that looking your best = not looking fat
There is a difference between NOT LOOKING FAT and NOT LOOKING FATTER THAN YOU ARE. Consider a similar distinction: You try on a black blouse, and it makes you look really pale, as if you might be dead. You try on the same blouse in light blue, and you look fine. So you buy the blue one. Does that mean that looking your best=not looking pale and that all white people are hideous and should go to tanning beds or not show themselves in public?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
There is a difference between NOT LOOKING FAT and NOT LOOKING FATTER THAN YOU ARE. Consider a similar distinction: You try on a black blouse, and it makes you look really pale, as if you might be dead. You try on the same blouse in light blue, and you look fine. So you buy the blue one. Does that mean that looking your best=not looking pale and that all white people are hideous and should go to tanning beds or not show themselves in public?


I don't think you understand. Part of what I was pointing out was that in the post which I quoted, you drew a very definite comparison between looking fat and looking good.

Let me ask you a question - is there's nothing wrong with being fat, then why would you care if you look "fatter than you are"?

I won't even begin to address your comparison that looking fat is as deterimental as looking dead.

Do you not understand that the only reason you believe you look BETTER when you look thin is because of the whole image that our culture has? If our culture simply believed in different body types, some larger and some smaller, for people, you would not look in the mirror and assess whether an outfit made you feel fat, or look fat.

When the vast majority of people in our culture feel that being fat is ugly... who can blame the OP's daughter for wanting to avoid it at all costs? Do we really expect children to believe that their bodies are OK no matter what the size or appearance... but oh, that outfit makes my butt look big so I'm going to run and change my clothes?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Respectfully, I don't think "people come in all shapes and sizes" alone is enough.

The fact is that thin is privileged over fat in a huge way (pun intended) in Western culture. This is not to say that it is okay to bash skinny people, obviously it isn't okay to bash anyone based on their looks.

But. BUT. Thin is privileged over fat. And it is fat people, not skinny ones, that suffer the most discrimination and cruelty. By FAR. Why? Well, that's complicated. And it is really really hard to discuss here without people coming in and derailing the converstation by talking about how unhealthy fat people are.

But anyway, it isn't just about "people come in all shapes and sizes," though that is part of it. It is about thin being privileged over fat, with unrealistic, unhealthy images of "thin" being used to sell just about everything on the planet. It is about marketing, fat-phobia, and ultimately, imo, the total disempowerment of women. If we can't make women disappear completely, well, we can make them pine away and starve themselves and hate themselves and get the same results. And we can sell them lots of stuff in the process.

And I think those complex issues are the ones we have to address with our dc.
And yeah, that's hard. But to me "people come in all shapes and sizes" (and I am not trying to bash any one poster here) is like saying "people come in all colors" without talking about racism, kwim?

It is part of the story, but not the whole story.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I have always been thin. I have always had to overcompensate to get people to take me seriously. I get treated like a teenager no matter what I am dressed like and how I carry myself. I have to be twice as informed about anything for people to not treat me like a child. Having to overcompensate has given me an advantage, but I'm not the girl that the men think is hot. I am pretty in the face, but neck down, I'm a 13 year old boy for the most part. People have this quizzical look on their face when they meet me - 'is this woman for real? She must be a ditz - she's skinny.' I look people directly in the eye and speak in a super professional voice and they stop trying to look me down.

And women have ALLLLLWAAAAAYS acted like I have this aura of privilege about being skinny so they discriminate against me, make snide remarks, and presume that I have all these advantages that I never get. I have been regularly getting rude comments from people in public since I was a little kid. People stop me in the grocery store and make harsh comments and say I shouldn't be a parent. Overweight women and average weight women alike, often treat me and women like me as though we need to be hacked down a few notches because we have this 'advantage'.

Paris Hilton gets those advantages. She is airbrushed and has lots of money and attitude. She's hot. It's NOT just that she's skinny! What looks great in a catalog often does not look as good in real life. A size 2 may be runway material, but if you're under a 4 in real life and an adult woman, unless you dress like Paris Hilton, people do not interact with you like you're attractive.

I know plenty of women that men are crazy about that are not skinny in the slightest. It's in the eyes! It's in the attitude! It's in the sense of humor and the way they carry themselves. They like body confidence. Women who accept themselves are far more likely to be accepted by everyone else - no matter their size.

Yes the skinny/cute/flirtatious woman in your office probably got attention. She also probably wore cuts of clothing that worked best for her body. It's not just size. I know plenty of women who are skinny and also obese that are described as 'gross' behind their backs. You know you don't see bony women too often in porn. Some are thin, but curves are wanted there. It's the women's magazines that have the women like me - bone thin waifs.

I don't know what the numbers are, but no matter what weight has been popular historically, it's always been the same ratio that was considered attractive for waist/hips/bust.

I am not lucky to be skinny. It's not easy. I have to work as hard to keep my weight on as most people do to keep it off. If I slack off for a week I'll drop 5 lbs. which sounds soooooo romantic to people until they realize that my average weight is less than 100 lbs. I have a fitness plan I have to follow, calories I have to count, and I have to think about my weight all day every day to not fall off the charts (if I forget, I won't feel hungry and I'll lose a pound). Any time I have slacked I end up in the low 90's. I have to lift weights. I have to do a certain amount of cardio to keep my appetite up. I have to avoid foods that are 'wasted' as in they don't contain enough nutrient/carb/fat density. I have to arrange my entire life around food. I'm sure most people would read that and still think I'm lucky.

Society doesn't just love skinny women! They love women that love themselves! Rail thin does not mean you have a pretty face. Women in all shapes and sizes can be radiant and sexy! It has more to do with how you feel about yourself than it does your size. Hollywood might only project one image, but look at American Idol - it's certainly not just the pretty blondes that get through by the public's votes!

YES there is fat discrimination. It's everywhere. But the worst thing is that women buy into it and believe it about themselves and fire away at each other and mistreat their own bodies over it.







:


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I loathe the day I'm going to have to deal with this issue with my daughter. There is no avoiding it. The thin/fat issue is EVERYWHERE. We're so used to it, we don't realize how bombarded we are. And I agree with a pp that there is a ton of money being made by reinforcing women's insecurity about their weight and bodies.

But in the individual, "I feel fat" or "I'm worried about feeling fat" is code. It is code for "I don't feel good about something." Feeling fat has nothing to do with a person's actual body weight. Feeling fat cannot be banished with a liberal application of logic. I think we waste a lot of time trying to convince people with distorted or negative views of themselves that they are logically wrong.

When this comes up with my daughter (and sadly, I expect it to) my basic plan is to get to the feeling underneath "I feel fat." DD is going to be raised with an obnoxious level of body-project awareness, but I don't expect her to escape the cultural programming that creeps in like a poisonous cloud. Hopefully, if we can address the feelings she's having that are causing her to feel self doubt, she won't take the occasional day of fatness to the next level, which is dieting, exercise, and obsession. Even short of a diagnosable eating disorder, obsession is the ball and chain that so many women live with.









A pp mentioned encouraging sports and athletics. I'm a born mover, and I hope my daughter likes sports as much as I do. But sports are not free of eating disorders, and I think ED's may be more common among female athletes than in the general population.

MG, I'm so sorry you're having to face this. Even though I have a loose plan, I feel sick to my stomach when I think about the day my daughter says those dreaded words.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
It is starting for boys as well. Just today, my 9 yr ds was crying that he didn't want to go to school because he is ugly.








For him it is not weight, but height. He is a beautiful boy, but a little on the shorter side and just this year is starting to get so self-conscious.









:

Both of the anorexics I personally know are 10th grade _boys_. Those skinny "emo"/anime silhouettes are all the rage in some crowds.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Sophmama, no one is denying the validity of your personal experiences. But the issue here is not individual experiences. The issue is culture as a WHOLE.

And when you talk about culture as a WHOLE, thin is privileged over fat.
It absolutely, undeniably IS.
And that reality has to be addressed.

People are NOT walking around with eating disorders because they want to be FAT. They are starving themselves and throwing up to be THIN.
The magazines and other media are not full of images of round, curvy women. They are full of thin-to-emaciated looking models and actresses with unreasonably large fake breasts plopped on top.

THIN IS privileged. And if we can't talk about that honestly, we can't solve the problem. If we can't ask why that is, if we can't look at fat-phobia and fat discrimination and acknowlege that as the problem, we can't address it.

No one is minimizing your personal pain. But thin women do not suffer the wholesale descrimination fat women do in this culture. Not by a LONGSHOT.
And, when talking to our kids, or to each other, we have to deal with the realities of what is out there, in the media and in our culture. And the reality is that the media and our culture promote unreasonable thinness. And that is why 7 year old girls worry about being "too fat." Not "too skinny." TOO FAT.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Thanks, Sophmama, for speaking up with your perspective. I identify with a lot of it...but also, you've reminded me that I could be a lot worse off than I am!







I think your points are very valid in this discussion because our culture's attitudes toward REAL extremely thin women are not the same as attitudes toward extremely thin celebrities, and MANY people think the celebrities are too thin too, and these are IMPORTANT things for girls to know when they're thinking about how they want to look. I also think it is just as rude and unfair for women who have never been thin to tell us how thin women experience life, as it would be for us to tell them how fat women experience life.

Yes, it is true that thin is priveleged over fat. To be more accurate, it is true that people who are moderately underweight for their height and bone structure are given much more leeway by the culture (both in perceived attractiveness and in assumptions about their lifestyle) than people who are moderately overweight. Both EXTREMES are considered unattractive and unhealthy and symptomatic of poor self-management, but for overweight the judgments start much closer to what's really a normal weight. That isn't fair to people whose natural, healthy shape is soft and round. It also isn't fair to people who are obese due to health problems but endure snide comments about how they must sit on a couch eating fries all day. Cultural bias toward a single, too-thin ideal is harmful to everyone, and we all should work toward a broader ideal AND remember that appearance isn't everything.

KristiMetz, I can't figure out what I could say that would satisfy you. You mentioned earlier choosing "flattering" clothes, so there must be SOME criterion for appearance that you think is acceptable, but what is it? And whatever it is, can't your belief that it is attractive be construed as a bias against people who happen to have less of it?

Quote:

Let me ask you a question - is there's nothing wrong with being fat, then why would you care if you look "fatter than you are"?
Because it looks bad--not because all fat is always and everywhere bad bad bad, but because that particular body part on my particular body looks out-of-place at that size. If my hairstyle makes my cheeks look swollen, as if I'm recovering from dental surgery, that's unattractive because the cheeks are disproportionate to the rest of my face. The same size cheeks on a different person might fit right in.

And if being attractive was a simple fat/thin dichotomy, why would I be able to list so many ways that I avoid looking thinner than I am? You seem to have ignored those.

Quote:

I have to tell you, as a fat person, that I don't personally strive to look "skinny"... that would be foolhardy because no one is going to mistake me for a skinny person!
Right. But if you try on some clothing and see that its horizontal stripes, unfortunately placed pleats, or whatever make you look fatter THAN YOU ARE, do you choose to wear it anyway? If not, is that ONLY out of fear of what people will say, or is it connected to aesthetic principles about the proportions of a human body? These are not rhetorical questions; I'm genuinely curious how you think about this.


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## robinkate (May 5, 2005)

Dd is 3 so I haven't dealt with this yet. I think I would take a playful parenting approach to the fat comments, like have a doll start complaining about how fat she is and see how your dd reacts. What direction to take the play would depend on her reaction - I'm imagining something like another doll persuading the first doll that her body size is fine and then the doll starts complaining about her hair is the wrong color or something else. I would try to be silly and get her laughing about i


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

I agree with a few others here that you need to acknowledge (in whatever way seems right to you) the power of being thin and beautiful in our culture. It is one of the ways--THE way, really--that women get serious attention. The most brilliant female math genius will never get the attention that the most beautiful girl does (unless they're the same person, of course--and then no one will be able to stop talking about how weird it is, and in the end it will still be her looks that matter the most, at least until she's about 35).

I have a son so I can't completely relate. But if I had a beautiful daughter--the kind who strangers make comments about--I would really try to find a way to talk to her about what being beautiful means. How it will open many doors but also leave some closed. That her face and body are both her and NOT her--because of how the outside world appropriates them. You need to prepare her for getting a lot of attention, and maybe even find a way to help her be wise in her use of that attention. Telling her platitudes like 'people come in all shapes and sizes' is nice, but it is really not going to help her with this.

She is too little now to understand it all, but. I think wanting to be thin is not just an exericise in self-discipline but an acknowledgement that the primary way girls and women get positive attention in this society is through their looks. And also that it is unfortunately true that everything from getting a job to getting through security quickly at the airport is related to your appearance. (Ani diFranco and the Indigo Girls pose for stylized publicity photos like everyone else.) She may be showing an awareness of this somehow, and expressing her fear that she might lose her ability to keep these advantages.

I would find ways to tap into her female power, maybe even some that DO have to do with how she looks and what she does with her body. (Dancing? Belly dancing is great for this--one of the most beautiful things I ever saw was a belly dancer performance in a park, where she got some little girls from the audience to come up and dance with her. Belly dancing was traditionally a dance by and for women--the performing for men thing is different.)

Everyone knows that "looks don't matter" just isn't true--especially little girls.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
And also that it is unfortunately true that everything from getting a job to getting through security quickly at the airport is related to your appearance .... She may be showing an awareness of this somehow, and *expressing her fear that she might lose her ability to keep these advantages.*

As a fairly attractive person who is starting to age (and having major issues with it) this really struck me. When do women stop caring so much about our appearance? Do we ever?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
It is about marketing, fat-phobia, and ultimately, imo, the total disempowerment of women. If we can't make women disappear completely, well, we can make them pine away and starve themselves and hate themselves and get the same results. And we can sell them lots of stuff in the process.











I also want to know how much of a role women play in this process and how we can change it. For example, I was recently researching foot binding and was so struck, well, by many things, but mostly by how much this seemed to be a female-driven experience. Mothers who wanted what was "best" for their daughters and MILs who inspected the girls' feet to make sure they were suitablably small enough.









This thread has a lot of great ideas as to how we as mothers can break the cycle, but will my daughter ever believe me if I don't truely believe it for myself?


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