# Spanking "mainstream?"



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Some recent threads have gotten me thinking.

Where I live, while almost nobody is very AP, spanking is just "not done."

Frankly, around here it's considered "low class."

People definitely bribe and punish (time-outs and many non-logical consequences) but spanking, no.

So, how about where you live? What is the "mainstream" discipline style.


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## WriterMama (Mar 27, 2002)

That's how it is around here, too. Most people don't spank (at least, they don't admit to it), even though they're not necessarily AP. Many mainstream magazines (Parents, etc.) and mainstream news sources (Today Show, for example) are anti-spanking. Well, "anti" might be a little strong--but they do often feature more "enlightened" ways of dealing with child discipline and talk about how out-dated spanking is. Of course, they do encourage time-outs and so forth.

ETA: I'm in the southwest


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

I'm in the Midwest, in a metropolitan area and I think spanking is very 'mainstream' around here.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I'm in the northeast and spanking is a rarity. I've never (I'm pleased to say) seen a child being struck or even really being screamed at in a nasty way.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Smallish town Tx here (@100,000 people) and spanking is very much the norm. I know only one other mom IRL who doesn't/didn't spank - her kids are both in high school.

Spanking is even permitted in the public schools here. (I wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper about it after the superintendant of schools made some outrageous and ugly comments re: the need for corporal punishment, after Columbine.)

I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone sometimes.









FTR, my parents are both Texans and didn't spank me or my sister (though they did my older brother before they searched for a better way and to break the cycle.)


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## sincitymama (Sep 20, 2003)

Also in the northeast, with the same experience. I know some families that do spank or have, but generally it's not acceptable. Time-outs and stuff are used, but not spanking. I actually know people who have moved here from other parts of the country, and felt a need to lessen how often they spanked because around here it is NOT an ok thing to do in public.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, I live in Florida as if that needs any more explanation...

I think the thing is for me, a lot of people claim not to *spank* but they will "swat" or "slap a hand to redirect" or a "pat" on the butt...

Well, in my humble opinion, just nice names for spanking...

know what I mean??


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## HeartsOpenWide (Mar 1, 2005)

what is AP?







:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

HeartsOpenWide, AP stands for Attachment Parenting.

Regarding the spanking question. I think it happens often enough in my area, though like Maya's area, it seems to be viewed as "low class" or ignorant or something. The biggest thing is probably time-out around here. Time out done without shaming or in a punitive way hasn't bugged me, but I sure wish spanking would disappear


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

I am in the deep south and it is definitely mainstream and the norm around here. Heck, when the LLL leader came to my house I heard her threaten to spank her ds because he didn't want to get in his carseat! I see people spank their kids or overhear them threaten to in public all the time.
And, like a pp, I too have heard folks say "I don't spank but I will swat his hand (or his leg)." WTF? What do they think a spanking is?


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I do not ever see anyone spank in NY. Not that it does not happen. I just don't see it. I do see yelling, punishing, etc.

My sister was a Child something major in college. And tonight she told me that the popular thought in their texts was that spanking was wrong. I told her I thought the opposite--it is moreso the norm to spank. But she said they learned otherwise. Probably not the same cirriculm in every state, but possibly similar.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

almost everyone around here spanks, even people who are associated with the Early Head Start program, and they specifically discourage corporal punishment.









... but then, we're a pretty low-class area.









i see people hitting kids all the time ~ not just spanking but actually across the face, arms, etc.


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## FreeSpiritMama (Oct 22, 2003)

Spanking definately happens here, I see it but I see yelling, time outs, bribes and threats used a lot more. We are in the UK.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I have to say it. I know, I know. I have a problem. :LOL

I am fairly uncomfortable with throwing around the term "low class."

There, I said it.

Here is spanking is pretty much the norm.


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## Patchfire (Dec 11, 2001)

People don't spank or hit publicly here (Atlanta) or where my parents live (Chattanooga). If you start talking to people about discipline, though, a lot of them will say "I don't think it's right, but sometimes I spank, because I just don't know what else to do!" or something similar. So spanking is mainstream, but only covert spankings.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

When I lived in Florida, most parents I knew admitted to slapping or spanking their children occasionally. We moved to the northeast a few years ago and spanking is viewed differently here. Most people don't spank their children. I grew up in the northeast, and my friends and I were not spanked. (Just alot of other passive/aggressive control type parenting.)


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Spanking is very much the norm here. We are in FL.

I am happy to hear that spanking is less common in other areas.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I live in S. Texas and spanking is definitely mainstream.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

There is no legal exemption allowing for hitting children where I live (Germany) but it definitely happens here. I’ve seen it happen 3 times. In Santa Cruz, where there are a lot of “AP” parents, hitting happened as well. I’ve lived in pretty “AP” places but never in a place where hitting children was totally taboo ~ only where parents acknowledged that it wasn’t and ideal.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I am in Ontario Canada and most people are non-spankers however my brother spanks a lot...unusual for our family...my family on both sides are non-spankers except for one aunt on my mother's side...my DH family are non spankers.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I live in New England and don't know a single parent that spanks, swats, slaps or uses any other physical form of discipline. However, anytime the conversation comes up the same one or two moms mentions that their husbands feel it could be a great last resort type of thing.







:

I am not comfortable with the "low class" explanation either. I think many peoples initial ideas on spanking come from what they were raised with by their parents. Growing up in a highly educated, affluent area I can tell you that many of my friends were spanked. I was never actually spanked but I was often threatened with physical harm (do that one more time young lady and I will send you into next week! You don't want me to take off my belt do you?)


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Spanking and yelling are the usual around here, even in public. It breaks my heart to see a little one getting spanked for what I consider being normal behavior (like wanting to stay at the park to play.)


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## NightOwl (Sep 12, 2004)

Yeah...spanking is the norm is Florida. It's thought of as weird if you _don't_ spank or swat or something like that. People spank in public. Even a LC I know "thumps" her kids on the head (as she calls it). (She flicks them with her finger, kwim?)

I'm glad to hear it is different elsewhere!


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

I'n in New England and do know people who spank, people who are learning alternatives to spanking, and people who don't do it at all. Some spankers are mainstream, and I know of at least one homebirthing, CD'ing, BF'ing, "natural" spanker. I've seen parents very loudly verbally abuse/spank their children and get the evil eye from everyone around her. I did not see one person (including myself) go up and offer her a non-judgemental helping hand that was needed. I'm sure most of us were thinking how malls (and Walmart) bring out the lowest common denominator.

I've lost my patience in public (not spank) w/my older dd. The one time someone came up to me and helped me refocus, I was quickly back on track. The woman who helped me risked her own comfort. For all she knew I might have taken her help the wrong way. Angels and fools are generally the only ones who intervene in public parent/child conflicts. I think spanking is becoming less acceptable to the mainstream, as is effective, constructive help from a stranger.


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## darlindeliasmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Parthenia: I will always remember the woman who approached us in The Netherlands when we were on holiday and delia was losing it. We were at an open air market, looking for some bike gloves to protect her hands from sunburn (we were on a cycling tour of Holland, and it was warm and sunny; didn't think we'd need to worry about that). It had been a long day already, she was hot and tired, and just fell apart over making the choice between red and blue gloves. I was pretty close to the edge myself, but was trying to do what I usually do when a meltdown ensues--get her somewhere nonstimulating quick, so she can get control.
Well, I guess it looked more like I was pulling her into a dark alley LOL, because angels appeared everywhere. This woman never spoke to me, but was reaching out with such concern, just as we got to a tiny alcove and I knelt down and looked into DD's eyes and said, "breathe." The angel broke into a broad smile, and said, good, mama, and walked away.
How I wish more mamas had that angel looking over their shoulder in that moment of stress. In the US, I swear, the mutterings and mumblings by bystanders just make it worse/more embarrassing for a mom, and probably LEAD to swats.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Some recent threads have gotten me thinking.

Where I live, while almost nobody is very AP, spanking is just "not done."

Frankly, around here it's considered "low class."

People definitely bribe and punish (time-outs and many non-logical consequences) but spanking, no.

So, how about where you live? What is the "mainstream" discipline style.

Where I live yes everyone spanks, and they start out with "light swatting" even in babyhood. And I even have a friend who had a waterbirth, BF, all that jazz, but she plucks her baby's hand when he's "bad" - he's only a year old, as if he can be bad in the first place! Well, anyway, I think I'm the only parent who'll never hit my kid, and everyone around me already thinks I'm nuts because I haven't started the hitting thing yet.


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

I'm in the Northeast. No spankings here either. Not a lot of AP either.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Alabama here and spanking is the norm. It has been very difficult to shield my children from it. I had a friend who had to deal with DHR/CPS because of an incident with her son. The DHR worker told her he thought NOT spanking was abusive to a child and would investigate "those people". BTW, she was/is a spanker.


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## movingon (Mar 25, 2005)

sigh, I just burst into tears (well, I am pregnant!) because a poll was done on a local news channel, where 69% felt it was entirely appropriate to hit a child with a belt.

This after a local councilman was arrested and his son was taken to the hospital for injuries due to using a belt on the 14 year old boy.

Now, I feel really outnumbered by people who believe children are born evil and only fear of abuse can beat it out of them...


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm from Seattle, Washington and I don't think spanking is neccessarily a "mainstream" issue, but more of a cultural and philisophical issue. My parents spanked me, but only untill I reached a certain age, and my mom was usually pretty calm about it. My dad was somewhat abusive when I was younger, but eventually we did work that out before he passed







My parents weren't really mainstream per say, but then again they weren't AP either. They are Christian, they don't view spanking as something that they have to do to raise a good Chrisitan child, although they do believe(and my mom still does) that it a necessary form of punishment.

However, their is an anti-spanking movement going on everywhere, and it's not just among cruchy folks. Having worked in the childcare field, they are many parents who are very mainstream and rarely spank, don't do so at all, or simply oppose spanking altogether. So, I think it really depends on your own personal veiws, the way you were raised, and you culture.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I'm in the midwest, and spanking is the norm here too...even public spanking... Ugh. Some people around here like to openly take spanking too far though, and spank a child's hand or face as well.







Non-physical discipline is very rare around here it seems...at least in my small town.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm in New England too and while I grew up knowing a lot of kids that were spanked (including myself), I don't know anyone now that openly talks about spanking their kids. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not a normal thing that is encouraged or flaunted.


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## kadm16 (Apr 11, 2005)

Yeah, here too, people don't spank, and if they do, they
don't talk about ti very much.

There seems to be tons of bribery and consequences
that don't match the actions...
but that is better than spanking.

I am lucky that in my small group of friends we are almost all
AP parents and can relate to one another.


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## mommie (May 12, 2005)

I was spanked all the time as a child and I tell you it left a lasting impression, I never did again what got me spanked! Spanking should only be used as a form of punishment not to beat somebody.If a defiant and disobedient child needs to be corrected with the ultimate object of leading him to become an adult with self-discipline and self-restraint, then the first question would naturally be what method will be effective in accomplishing this task? If one studies the literature on this topic, one is simply inundated by a deluge of conflicting ideas, arguments and research results. If one analyzes these conflicting ideas, however, one soon discovers that the wrangling is mainly between two parties, the one endorsing spanking or corporal punishment (to use the term created by humanists), and the other opposing it.


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## WriterMama (Mar 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommie*
I was spanked all the time as a child and I tell you it left a lasting impression, I never did again what got me spanked! Spanking should only be used as a form of punishment not to beat somebody.If a defiant and disobedient child needs to be corrected with the ultimate object of leading him to become an adult with self-discipline and self-restraint, then the first question would naturally be what method will be effective in accomplishing this task? If one studies the literature on this topic, one is simply inundated by a deluge of conflicting ideas, arguments and research results. If one analyzes these conflicting ideas, however, one soon discovers that the wrangling is mainly between two parties, the one endorsing spanking or corporal punishment (to use the term created by humanists), and the other opposing it.

WHA. . .?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommie*
Spanking should only be used as a form of punishment not to beat somebody..

Interesting... I'm not getting the difference.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Mommie...Take a gander at some of the stickies to this forum.

Anyway...









I live in West Texas. It is absolutely the disgusting norm here. I was spanked...because my parents didn't have the skills or inclination to do any different.

Violence is the refuge of the incompetent.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

BTW - I was spanked all the time as a child as well and I agree it left a lasting impression... I had very little respect or admiration for my parents who beat me and to this day we do not have the kind of close relationship that I have with my children.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Just wanted to add that my reference to spanking being "low class" was not my term personally, but just how it tends to be viewed by many in my area.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

I currently live in southeast coastal GA and I see a lot of spanking. Hitting, swatting, popping, thumping, beating... take your pick, I've seen them all here. And that's just what is going on in public places.









I was raised in NC. I was never spanked, nor were my brother or cousins. My family is not really AP but hitting was just not something we did. Once of my dad's cousins has just adopted some children and she is spanking them. The whole family is aghast but nobody feels like they have a right to say anything, probably because the cousin is not "immediate" family.

*mommie* - I second a PP's suggestion of reading the stickies at the top of this "*Gentle* Discipline" forum.


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Okay, I can't help it.
Mommie...
....okay, I am not even gonna address your advocating spanking







; I hope you will stay long enough to change your opinions on that








but what the heck is this:

Quote:

If one analyzes these conflicting ideas, however, one soon discovers that the wrangling is mainly between two parties, the one endorsing spanking or corporal punishment (to use the term created by humanists), and the other opposing it.
:LOL If one analyzes conflicting ideas about ANYTHING, the wrangling is mainly between two parties, the one endorsing and the other opposing!

Anyway, mommie,







to MDC.








(and hitting kids seriously sucks)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Just wanted to add that my reference to spanking being "low class" was not my term personally, but just how it tends to be viewed by many in my area.


Me too. If you asked mainstream parents here "who spanks their kids" they would say that only people of the lower class would do that.

Actually the term they use would not be so politically correct, but this is what they mean.


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

What an interesting thread, Maya!

Here in Boston I've run into both spankers and non-spankers (who are normally pro time-outs, yelling, bribes, etc.). Not many GD folk--but I'm also a new mom so that could explain it.

Heard a rumor that Mass outlawed hitting a child with anything but an empty hand. However, I haven't had the time to see if that is more than a rumor... _If_ it is true, I'm not sure how I feel about it--is it legitimizing abuse or is it a step in the right direction?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HunnyBunnyMummy*
_If_ it is true, I'm not sure how I feel about it--is it legitimizing abuse or is it a step in the right direction?

As someone that was hit with wooden spoons, belts, wooden shoes, etc. - I would have greatly preferred the open hand so... I'd say it's the latter. But still not quite enough.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

I think corporal punishment as a whole is pretty common in our neck of the woods.









Even my husband is still trying to wrap his mind around the whole idea of gentle discipline. He's very supportive, but it's still a hard concept for him sometimes.

The other day a friend of ours who's wife is expecting a baby was listening to me talk about how I have to redirect our 10 mos old from daddy's toys (remote, etc) over and over again and he said, "Can't you just yell at him and shock him into stopping?"







He asked this very innocently, too. Sigh.

GD is just not the norm here.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm in Ontario, canada, and I don't know anyone who spanks.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Basically all of our pre-child friends who also have kids spank









I've seen our neighbors spank their kids in the backyard a couple times, and heard them threaten it a whole lot more.

Honestly, though, in public I don't see people spanking their kids too often. However, I am constantly bothered by the way people *talk* to their kids... seems like so many of the parents I overhear sound so mean and disrespectful.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I haven't done a study on this, but I bet spanking is class-related, at least to some degree. It's not hip to spank anymore. It's not classy. In my experience, the spankers have almost always been members of the lower classes, whereas the non spankers have been a range of classes. More specifically, there have been more spankers in the lower class than in the higher classes. But the non spankers have been pretty much equally in both. I'm not suggesting that most of the lower class beats their kids. But I do think the upper class is probably less likely to spank (because they tend to have more education and because they're aware that spanking is out of vogue.)


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Our kids are still young, but only one family I know spanks at all. Pretty much in my urban, white middle and upper middle class world spanking is not considered OK. It would be REALLY weird to see someone in one of the nicer pockets of town hit a kid in public- and people would assume it was a person from another, poorer or more rural area.

But my neighborhood has two classes- yuppy and white, and lower class back. The black parents I see around are more likely to hit their kids in public or threaten to hit them.

I know some AP/GD black parents, it's obviously not universal, but I know from research I've read that corporal punishment is more accepted in the black community overall than in white America. And of course there's a class interaction at work where I live- as well as in America in general.

I bring this up because it really bothers me in my neighborhood how the black kids are often treated so differently than the white kids. In the playgrounds where everyone plays together it really stands out sometimes. And I can't help but wonder what kind of self-image kids get when they see their own parents, and their same-race friends' parents treat them one way, and they see the other race treating their kids differently.

I can't help but feel sometimes like the message a kid might get is that it's OK to hit black children, but not white ones- and it literally makes my skin crawl to think about that. It's not far from that assumption to the idea that black kids or people somehow deserve harsher treatment.

Ugh. It freaks me out.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Just for the record, I know child abuse exists on every economic level and in every racial group. I was just venting about a dichotomy I see around me, and owrrying about the message kids' might take from it.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

I live in a little town north of Houston, TX, and I know exactly *1* other parent who doesn't spank. (She's also my best friend here; her daughter is a year younger than my son, and we have almost identical child rearing philosophies.) In public or not. Most of the people I work with also lament the times past when kids were paddled in school.

I grew up in Mississippi, and of all the people I know at home, there are NONE that don't spank.

So, yeah -- in my reality, spanking is absolutely mainstream.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
BTW - I was spanked all the time as a child as well and I agree it left a lasting impression... I had very little respect or admiration for my parents who beat me and to this day we do not have the kind of close relationship that I have with my children.

Yes, exactly!!! I didn't misbehave, that's true, but on the other hand I hate my mom, so was it worth it? She lives 2 minutes away and we rarely speak to each other. All I can think of her is that she is the only person (well, my dad a few times, but mostly my mom) who has ever actually HIT me in my whole life. How can I LOVE her or even LIKE her, after all that? I wouldn't love/like my DH if he hit me, I'd never stay friends with a friend who hit me, but I'm supposed to love a mother who hit me? I wasn't going to get into it, but when you said this, it really got to me.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

I was spanked all the time as a child and I tell you it left a lasting impression...
I was spanked as a child, too, and the impression I got was 1-my parents were in conflict about it (my dad being against it), and 2- I would never spank my children. I remember very vividly feeling resentment for being spanked, and the lesson I learned was that it was a hurtful and cruel way to be treated. I remember running away from my mother in total fear, and hating her, not respecting her in those moments.
My mom and I get along pretty well now, but we have some deep rooted issues, and I attribute some of them to her domineering hand hitting my butt.
I spanked dd a couple of times, and each time I did I felt ashamed that I had resorted to something that I promised the child in me that I would never do. I apologized to her, and it was a long time before I forgave myself.

Something that feels that wrong in so many ways can't have any value as a learning tool in our society. In our family it has negatively impacted two generations of mother-daughter relationships. There are alternatives and as the adults in the family we owe it to our children and our own dignity to use those alternatives.

Mommie- I hope you'll stay a while to hear the opposing views on spanking.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I know no one want to beleive this, but studies show that kids who are spanked are no more obedient or well behaved than kids who aren't. They tend to just do stuff wrong behind their parents' backs instead.

Studies also show that spanking makes kids more likely to use violence- hence get into fights and inot trouble.

The deal is this- kids try to be "good." As adults we remember trying to be good and also have vague memories of being hit at intermittent intervals, and we remember the fear of it. This creates an idea that the hitting "caused" the goodness.

But research does not support that.

The saying in science is that correlation does not imply causation. Just because two things happen together does not mean one caused the other.

Hitting DOES NOT LEAD TO GOOD BEHAVIOR!!!!!!

Talking about having been well behaved because we were hit only encourages the myth that spanking "works" as a last ditch resort. There is NOTHING in the research to support this.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

The topic of spanking and "class" is pertinent. Especially reading through this thread and noting that the more "enlightened" parts of North America tend to be reporting spanking is not mainstream, whereas the South and Midwest tend to report it is. I know from my own experiences this holds true. In Boston I never saw kids being spanked or spoken to harshly. In Cleveland, this was sadly the norm. And in our neighbourhood, which was a poorer one (we chose to live next to the county hosptial where I worked) it was way too normal to see kids spanked or yelled at or simply belittled. Where I live now, in crunchy BC Canada, not only do I not see spanking, but I rarely see anything more punitive than the ol' 1-2-3 thingy.

This is why we left Cleveland to return home to BC.

It's hard to talk about this without stereotyping or using class-isms...I have to agree with what boston wrote. However, I tend to look at it in terms of stress. Poor, working or social assistance families spend alot of their emotional energies trying to make sure their families get the basics of food, shelter, safety. They tend to lack access to educational resources. And they are surrounded by others in the same boat so it becomes acceptable socially. I know how much the little stresses of my life affect my ability to parent well, I am sure it would be 100x harder if i had no money, no support, an unsafe neighbourhood, etc.

oh and to the poster whose sister was studying child development. it's sad but true that this field has known about the ill effects of spanking and punishment for decades, but the message is taking a long time to get out there.i am hopeful that it will eventually become taboo everywhere.


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## fayking (Jun 28, 2004)

I often see children being hit in public here (i am in the UK) and its mainly by parents who appear to be poor. I imagine that many parents of varying socio-economic groups also spank their children but they just do it behind closed doors instead.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

she's just a troll, mamas. don't let her rile you all up.









(how do i know? in her introduction thread she says her little boys are 3 and 9... in another thread she says they are 2 and 7.







)

come on "mommie", you have to be less obvious than that. :nana:


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Maybe she spanked them too much and they shrunk??


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

:
















:


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

That's a very interesting point, mommyofschmoo, and one I notice _in one family_ on my block. The parents are very rough with the two African-American boys they have adopted, and not nearly as abrasive or violent with their own two white girls, though they do hit all 4 of them.

And I have felt uncomfortable seeing that gulf at the playground, or the mall, etc. It's very strange, even to be on the "right" side, because it seems to throw into painfully sharp focus that I have the resources (material, educational, emotional) to handle things differently, and in a way that unfortunately renders my kids healthier than others.

I grew up in the Northeast and only the "lower-income" minority kids were hit (and in Washington Heights that meant Russians and Irish). Most of us weren't hit, especially those whose parents were Northern European immigrants (except for Irish







), or American-born. Not to throw around "class" but I did observe this generalization. Now I live in the South, and I have lived in Atlanta, and in Atlanta I saw abuse that would bring the cops in any other place ignored or even approved as "discipline," but of course not at the Waldorf school where I worked. Here I see children hit or verbally abused, screamed at, humiliated, yanked about, _all the time!_ And in Florida you can't say anything, because someone just might shoot you.


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HunnyBunnyMummy*
Heard a rumor that Mass outlawed hitting a child with anything but an empty hand. However, I haven't had the time to see if that is more than a rumor... _If_ it is true, I'm not sure how I feel about it--is it legitimizing abuse or is it a step in the right direction?

There was a guy in Plymouth who was charged with felony assault (I believe) for hitting his son with a belt







I'm not sure how it turned out, I can't remember his name to Google it.

I live in MA and I see kids getting hit all of the time. Most often for not sitting properly in shopping carriages. I always see people screaming at and demeaning their kids in public.

My upstairs neighbor who we hardly know has taken to hitting her kids in front of us pretty regularly. I honestly don't know of a lot of people around here who think hitting is a bad thing


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm in an inner ring suburb of Philadelphia and spanking seems pretty common.


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Yup, I don't have any friends who advocate spanking....and they are not necessarily AP. It is considered backward, low class, and a sign that you are immature or uneducated, which I happen to believe is true. There is a general sense among most parents I am friendly with that spanking is just not done. However, I sometimes see people treat their kids badly in public, or I hear about it in my work...but, those times it is invariably a poor, uneducated person doing the mistreatment. My extended family is low-class and backward, and they spank. This is in the Northeastern part of the country. YMMV.

ETA: Funny, I noticed the previous poster is hailing from the Philadelphia suburbs. I am in the city itself, and like I said, I know it happens all around, but none of my friends and acquaintances spank. If they do, they must keep it a secret. It would be looked down upon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Some recent threads have gotten me thinking.

Where I live, while almost nobody is very AP, spanking is just "not done."

Frankly, around here it's considered "low class."

People definitely bribe and punish (time-outs and many non-logical consequences) but spanking, no.

So, how about where you live? What is the "mainstream" discipline style.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

100,000 was small :LOL :LOL
we used to be a town of 14k now 44k and growing

Back when we were still around the at large community (coaching soccer and still in ps ) it was the norm but here it wasn't lower socioeconomic parents but the more wealthy parents
and the lower wealth always seemed to more gentle at least around here back then

I have met a few people in the hs group that do not spank and use logical consequences though they are not really 'ap' so to speak..

We hang around in the next town over these days so I don't know what it is like now but being in the heart of conservatism fundamentalists of the spare the rod spoil the child ( being used as justifying it that is ) I would think it hasn't changed a lot...


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I love that this thread managed to segue into a respectful discussion of the intersection of class and parenting practices.

From what I know, which is not much:

(1) child abuse in the form of "discipline" transcends all classes, races, ethnicities and types of families.

(2) as other members alluded to, low-income people just plain have more hardship and stressors -- they have more "reasons" to abuse (not acceptable reasons, of course!).

(3) sh!t runs downhill. It's unfortunately very comon for oppressed people to abuse someone more powerless than themselves.

(4) people with more money have better ways of hiding abuse.

(5) better-educated people have better access to parenting/child development information. In fact, the notion of making child-rearing a theoretical subject that one studies and learns from books IS a middle-class notion. Traditionally, child-rearing was (is) considered a cultural practice, one that you learn from imitating your family and neighbors, i.e., your tribe. Now, I like to geek out on parenting practices as much as the next MDCitizen, but this idea raises some interesting cultural relativism questions/critiques. There's a widespread belief in AP circles that following traditional and / or instinctive parenting practices are more authentic, more gentle, more right. But what if your tribe -- your family and neighbors -- spank?

Personally, as a kid who grew up in a hitting, yelling home, I don't especially trust my parenting instincts. Sometimes my instinct is distinctly _not_ gentle. I'm [email protected] glad there are resources I can tap that say it is okay to co-sleep, it is okay to not hit your kid, speak respectfully to children, this is a way to get the diaper on the frisky toddler without coercion, etc. I think it could probably be argued (though I have never seen any expert with this theory, I am just thinking out loud now) that we all posess a range of instincts and AP, living respectfully with our children, trying to minimize our intake of really toxic culture/people helps us hear and follow our best instincts instead of our worst. Living in a peaceful life free from abject need helps me overcome my less-gentle instincts and be the parent I want to be.

I think it's very appropriate to be mindful that sitting on our butts in front of our computers engaging in a thoughtful discussion on childrearing practices is an exercise in priviledge.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Oh, and I can't tell for sure in my area yet, because I still consider myself new to this parenting gig, but it seems that public spanking is Not The Thing To Do. The two moms I know who admit to spanking are opposites: one is younger, less educated and less affluent than me and works in an unprestigious field. The other is older, worked in a high prestige field when she worked, is more educated than me, and is a gazillionaire (which would be _more_ affluent than me, just in case you were wondering!). Interestingly, Mom #1 thinks spanking/hitting is okay but has only done it when she is at the end of her rope, stressed to the max. Mom #2 was telling me of strategically, calculatedly "tapping" her 13-month-old's hand to get her to stop doing some undesirable behavior. I'm not sure this has anything to do with class trends, though; it's just two individuals.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I love your first post Bleu! Really, really nice one.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Hi, I really found this thread interesting. Before having kids, I also assumed that spanking was definetely "not OK" and that it had a "low class" connotation to it. I realized however, that any class connotation it has, if any, has to do perhaps with the class your parents belonged to. I did not see much spanking going on in Italy, where I grew up. My parents did not even consider spanking and we were hanging out with a very "traditionally bourgeois" milieu. Not particularly rich families but all white collars for generations. However, I do see a lot of spanking going on among my friends here in Switzerland which are more "mixed". I know this post is going to get me labelled as classist







but this is my experience.
In fact, unfortunately for me, I do not know a single family with young children here who do not spank. I have noone to talk to regarding the kids' upbringing except if I post on this forum.








However, I feel more and more that the dividing line between spanking and punishments which is somewhat class-related at least in my opinion is not a very relevant one, really... I mean it may appear more disgusting, yes, but the end effect punishments have on your child is the same: rage, legitimation of the power of the strongest, disconnection....


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Great post bleu. Very true. It's like how most families involved with CAS/CPS are poor, but I know from personal experiences that rich people abuse their children too. They can just hide it better, afford more privacy, etc.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

The thing that concerns me about the spanking/class issue is that it serves to "keep down" those who are already "down." Spanking increases rage and aggressive behavior, and in those areas where lower income and otherwise disenfranchised people are the ones doing the most spanking (in public at least) spanking itself keeps the cycle going.

The other BIG problem, is the misconception that spanking works.

Some parents who are poor, or live in rough neighborhoods, or are black or latino, feel that they need to be harsher in their discipline because their kids are more at risk for turning to drugs, crime, etc. The fact is there is no proof that hitting your kids decreases the likeliness that they will commit crimes or break rules. most studies show that spanking actually leads to less internalized compliance.

The way to teach kids values and morals is not with a belt.

Even on MDC some people seem to beleive it, and beleif is so powerful. It's like the PP where she said people at her work missed the days of paddles in school. Many people claim Columbine and other stuff wouldn't happen if they paddled kids more.







The FACT is thay teenagers have ALWAYS killed eachother. Teenagers are no more likely to commit murder now than at any other time in history. .

The reason why kids seem more violent today is that we all have televisions and watch more of it than we used to. The reason kids cuss more is that curse words are more socially acceptable than they used to be. It's all spin. All of it.

BEATING CHILDREN IS NOT A MAJIC BULLET!!!! It makes nothing better!!!!! The good old days are only good because people create memories to be happy and always think well of their childhood selves.

Back to race and class. Just as black or poor parents think "my kids are at risk for criminal behavior, therefore I must hit them a lot," we the priveledged audience can allow ourselves to beleive that's true if we beleive that hitting works.

It's not a huge step from that assumption to people thinking "well, if that mom is hitting her kid it must be because he deserved it." If I remember my social psych correctly, people tend to attribute blame to people they see being punished.

Last point, promise- I think harsh physical discipline is a more northern european thing, not so much southern european. My dad grw up all over Europe and his family always said that "Italian kids are spoiled"- actually they said that about all the Latin countries. It was the British perspective they had. Culture has a lot to do with spanking. that's why in the US the south spanks more across the board than the northern coasts.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I'm in the Northeast. Spanking doesn't seem too common.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CerridwenLorelei*
only a fellow Texan could say a town of

100,000 was small

:LOL
I was really thinking maybe things are different in Houston, Dallas, Austin, Ft. Worth, etc. Seems not, though. Poor little Texans.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
I haven't done a study on this, but I bet spanking is class-related, at least to some degree. It's not hip to spank anymore. It's not classy. In my experience, the spankers have almost always been members of the lower classes,

The word has not gotten around down here that is it not hip anymore. I watched one of the area's "top ladies" (money, education, class, etc.) spank her daughter with a shoe at the pool. This is common. I only know a few who do not spank. It is even still legal here for the schools to spank. You have to sign a form KEEPING them from spanking. They have authorization unless you deny them in public school. Everyone comments on how polite and loving my children are, well-behaved and attentive and yet criticise me for not spanking. I don't get it.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think harsh physical discipline is a more northern european thing, not so much southern european. My dad grw up all over Europe and his family always said that "Italian kids are spoiled"- actually they said that about all the Latin countries. It was the British perspective they had. Culture has a lot to do with spanking. that's why in the US the south spanks more across the board than the northern coasts.

Your dad's anecdotal evidence most definitely jibes with mine.

Also, if you get a chance, read Alice ******. She theorizes (among other things) that harsh dsicipline -- well, really, emotional and physical abuse in the _guise_ of discipline -- made Germans uniquely suceptible to the Third Reich and to carrying out genocide. Or maybe read other people summarizing ****** -- most of the English translations are just ghastly, and reading them is just ick.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
Your dad's anecdotal evidence most definitely jibes with mine.

Also, if you get a chance, read Alice ******. She theorizes (among other things) that harsh dsicipline -- well, really, emotional and physical abuse in the _guise_ of discipline -- made Germans uniquely suceptible to the Third Reich and to carrying out genocide. Or maybe read other people summarizing ****** -- most of the English translations are just ghastly, and reading them is just ick.

Interesting, because you could extrapolate that out to the British & the empire building with ease as well. I will have to check her out, I haven't heard of her.


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## momof2tadpoles0104 (Sep 26, 2004)

im in Ma and from what ive seen spanking is not the norm. however we lived in Missouri for awhile and spanking even in public was very much the norm.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Spanking is very mainstream here in the upper midwest. Most other moms around here think I'm nuts.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

...


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I often wonder about this, because I read those "surveys" that say something like 70% of parents spank their children at least occasionally...but if anyone I know uses spanking, they certainly haven't told me about it. And I do know many who are clearly against it.

I'm in a NY suburb, BTW.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

First of all, there are some regional language differences, so I think that what you define as "spanking" in the US covers a broader range of behaviours than here in New Zealand. We generally refer to "smacking" to mean an open handed slap on the bottom, legs or hands, usually as a knee jerk reaction. If you said "spanking" I think of making a conscious, deliberate decision to strike a child, maybe on the hand, or putting them over the knee and using either a hand or an implement to hit them.

So, by those definitions, I would say that spanking is not mainstream. HOWEVER, many ethnic groups choose physical discipline (more often described as a "hiding") and they tend to be A) lower socio-economic groups B) over represented in crime statistics. I don't KNOW if there's a connection, but personally, I could see how they might be.

I think small slaps on hands etc as a kneejerk reaction for instant compliance would be pretty common (I know I'VE done that) but I think it would generally be frowned on to slap/smack a child in public.

Smacking/spanking is frowned on by those in the higher socio/economic groups, and time out is very popular, as a means of "thinking about" actions, what might be better ways of expressing oneself etc etc, rather than as a punitive punishment.

Any form of physical discipline is not permitted in early childhood centres, corporal discipline was phased out of schools in the mid 1990s, and there is currently a campaign to make physical discipline illegal. Currently parents are legally entitled to use "reasonable force" to discipline, but campaigners want ALL physical discipline outlawed, as the definition of "reasonable force" is way too fuzzy.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
There's a widespread belief in AP circles that following traditional and / or instinctive parenting practices are more authentic, more gentle, more right. But what if your tribe -- your family and neighbors -- spank?


Great post Bleu! I am just taking out this part. I think as APers we can get hung up on this notion of the "romantic savage" but there is lots that we are forgetting.

I recently attended a talk by an LC who was working as a nurse in Malawi. There is considered a cultural norm to bf a child until AT LEAST the age of two. In fact, you are thought of as odd if you don't.

But its also a cultural norm for women to be treated as chattels by men, to only do things with their permission, and to never refuse them anything.

I don't know what there is to be taken from this, but the way I see it, what we believe to be the most "natural" etc can often come down to perception rather than fact.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

re: the class and discipline issue. I know that the "authorities" here tend to pay lip service to supporting parenting, but I don't know that they offer any real assistance. And even if they did, would people take it?

At my Playcentre, we have recently been offered the opportunity to attend TWO different parenting seminars. One of them is $67, which is a discounted rate (we received some funding for it) Now I consider myself middle class and reasonably educated, but there is no way I can afford that kind of price for a parenting seminar!

The second one is $20 for a series of four, but even that would be too much for someone living on a benefit or a minimum wage income.

There are things out there for the "less educated" which I don't know much about, because they aren't aimed at me, but I would question how effective they are without a willingness to take those things on board. For some people, familiarity is just easier.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I don't personally know anyone who spanks or "swats" their children. I think my friends and family members with kids would be horrified if I suggested that hitting their kids would be an appropriate method of discipline. I was actually talking about spanking with my mom a few weeks ago and she said "What? People still do that? C'mon...nobody thinks that's okay anymore." I had a hard time convincing her that it was still a very real problem.

FTR, I was never spanked, even when "people did think that it was okay".


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Nevermind...I'm getting confused ~ carry on







:


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

AP or not, spanking is the norm here (PNW) which has completely surprised me because I expected it not to be. I only know a couple of families who DON'T spank or swat.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Kansas..spanking is the norm here.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Czech Republic here - hard spanking kids' bottoms, breaking wooden spoons (some are very proud of this), smacking across the head or face, screaming, humiliating and general mind-control is expected here as a legitimate parenting path, and one who doesn't engage in these exercises runs the risk of being ridiculed and considered a pushover, even negligent parent. I know parents who are admonished by their families for not hitting. The culture values full submission to authority and obsessive control over chlidren's every move. This attitude seems to cut across all class and ethnic lines (the Roma (gypsies) don't strike me as any more violent towards their children than the whites, though they may be generally louder in public).

I am the weirdo who challenges all my friends who hit to explain to me how/why it works. They usually admit it doesn't but they can't figure out any other way to parent-- hey -- they're following their tribe!

There is a minor (growing, maybe) trend of more natural birthing/parenting now, but even many of those parents smack or threaten their kids. Unfortunately the parents have little direction because they've not seen much positive or gentle discipline modeled for them.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm in mid-Michigan in an area with both a major University (educated types) and many working class jobs. I'd say spanking is not the norm for everyone, but it's accepted. Many people across the class spectrum are coming on board with the notion that there are better ways to discipline, but there isn't much overt condemnation of it.

I'm not sure how the class issue plays out here, but I suspect it's as others have noted. Lower income working class folks seem more willing to accept spanking, yelling, etc. without question, and they seem to do it more often in public. That said, I've known several white collar, middle class moms to spank occassionally, or threaten to spank. I think the more middle class families are less likely to yell or spank in public. Perhaps in part because they read _Parents_, _Parenting_, etc., so they know it is looked down upon by many.

I also notice a difference in tone with the threatened spanks. A middle class mom (especially white moms) will look at a disobeying child and say (rather calmly, but with that "warning" tone), "Do you want a spanking?" A poor or lower income working class mom (of any race, white included) is more likely to raise her voice and yell something like, "Get over here _now_! If I have to come over there, I'm gonna whip your butt!" The middle class parents seem to present spankings as something they hate to do, but feel they have to. The poorer parents seem to present it (to the kids anyway) as something they have no problem doing. Kinda like, "Do you want to do what I say, or do you want a whipping? It's all the same to me." KWIM? I wonder what difference this makes to the kids, if any. With the "gentler" tone, a kid might not feel the threat so intensely, but if the parent follows through with the spanking, they might feel more shame. "Mommy doesn't like to spank me, but I made her do it because I was bad."

Bystanders respond differently as well. Middle class moms will wander away or look down at the ground when a fellow mom threatens to spank (or do any discipline for that matter.) We see it as something private between the parent and child. Working class moms are more likely to chuckle (as in "kids will be kids") or sympathize with the parent when a child is being threatened with physical punishment. They seem to see it more as a "normal" part of the parent/child relationship. I must add that I can't say that I see the harsher threats of poorer parents carried out any more often than the more understated threats of middle class parents -- although middle class parents seem to threaten far less often in public. If they _are_ carried out, middle class families are more likely to take the child to a different place (bathroom, car, outside the building, etc.) for the spanking. Again, it seems to be a privacy thing.

This is an interesting topic.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

New Zealand chiming back in here...

Interesting about the use of language or threats. I can't say I have actually SEEN smacking (as we call it) in public, but I have heard threats. What was worse was when I was working in retail, parents using ME as a pawn in their discipline techniques. "Come out of there, or the lady will tell you off!" ...HUH????

I have heard the middle class "Do you want a smacked bottom?" (I am guilty of using it myself in the heat of the moment!)

But worse than threats of physical punishment that I have heard from (those I'd perceive to be) "lower class" people (which are usually in the form of "You'll get a hiding" etc) is the TONE and WORDS that are used. The exasperated "Oh, just SHUT UP" to actual "Stop crying, you little shit"







Seriously, I wondered if people were prepared to say such offensive things to their kids in public, I hate to think what was going on behind closed doors.

I wonder if things like THIS - a basic lack of respect - are MORE damaging than a swat on the behind.

And I make no distinction as to "class" because I know that lack of respect for children takes MANY forms. "Lower class" people may hit, threaten and curse, but "upper class" people often treat their children like possessions to be conformed to their will.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs Otago*
And I make no distinction as to "class" because I know that lack of respect for children takes MANY forms. "Lower class" people may hit, threaten and curse, but "upper class" people often treat their children like possessions to be conformed to their will.

Great point. Both can lead to lots of baggage in adulthood, can't they?


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMonica*
AP or not, spanking is the norm here (PNW) which has completely surprised me because I expected it not to be. I only know a couple of families who DON'T spank or swat.


I imagine that spanking is more common in less urban areas round the PNW. In Seattle I almost never see a (white) kid hit, but I hear threats left, right and center when I go more than 40 minutes out of the city.


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