# When the Natural Consequence Is Far-Reaching or Worse for Me



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I keep falling back into a very bad habit of threatening natural consequences, which are only partly natural (see below), which I really want to avoid. Most of them involve breaking up our daily routine, which we all enjoy (pre-school, park, walks, library, study time with mom, bath time, story time, and so on).

A lot of this has to do with getting out of the house and just getting moving. I try to make it playful, I really do, but I only have so much energy and sometimes it doesn't work. When I forget to be playful and make up a game (say, at 7:30 pre-coffee), we're screwed.

I am trying to be patient but she dawdles like crazy. If we miss certain windows, we can't do certain things, things she asks for, begs for, things she runs towards when we get there. Things DD2 also loves and should not be asked to miss on a regular basis. Things we all deserve to do regardless of whether DD1 is a dawdler or not.

How can I encourage her to just move? I feel like more talking, more explanation, really ends up as me berating her because she doesn't seem to care at that moment. She's just so in the moment.

I feel that I'm doing more and more for her, even more than I do for the baby, because I'm so sick of using words to explain this stuff. I mean, you don't want to nag, so then what? I had a thread awhile back and I realized that "do it or I'll do it for you" was something I'd left behind, but now I remember why.

SHe likes it when I do that. In fact, that's what she's asking for. For me to do it. But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?


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## liberal_chick (May 22, 2005)

If you find a solution, let me know. It is like pulling teeth to get my 5 year old dressed and out the door for school every day. 95% of the time I just end up practically putting his clothes on for him.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
SHe likes it when I do that. In fact, that's what she's asking for. For me to do it. But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?

If that's what she's asking for, why are you withholding it? What's wrong with just helping her?

Neither of my kids could do these things independently at 4. They could physically do the steps, but they _needed_ my presence to keep them on task and engaged in what they were doing.

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and _would_ do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.

She won't go to college with you dressing her. Trust me on that one.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

DS is 5.5 and still needs help with these tasks. Every morning I dress him, and even getting into jammies requires some helping. Shoes? Forget it. That's why he has boots for rainy days and crocs for sunny days. Pull on, pull off.

I'm just saying. However, sticker charts worked really well for us at 4-5. If he did something independantly he got a sticker and if he got 15 stickers in a row, he got to have a special dinner for him (like picking up his room after school, or making his bed). But getting dressed just takes too long and things wind up backwards or stretched/ripped, just not worth it. I can dress him in his sleep before he even wakes up, most days.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

My dd used to want me to dress her, after she picked out the clothes, at that age as a way to connect with me. It took maybe three minutes and it helped us get out the door quickly while also helping dd feel connected. If that is all it takes to get out the door without a long battle then I think you should go for it. By the time she was five she had phased out of that and was very independent. We put on shoes and coats on at the same time, I always made it a race at that age and it also helped.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

There are def more choices than having her dress herself or not going. You could dress her yourself. You could pack her clothes and shoes in a tote bag & let her leave in her pj's. She could choose to get dressed (or not) when you get to where you are going. You could have a sitter come over & stay w/ dd1 & just take dd2 out. It comes down to thinking about it and deciding which choice you can live w/ and going w/ that. It would kill me a little on the inside to have my kid leave the house in pajamas, but if it got us all out of the house smoothly on time & w/ no fights, I would suck it up and do it.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

Do you mean "buckle up her car seat?" My son is 4.5 and he can't buckle his car seat, nor do I let him.

As for the rest, he can dress himself and put on his own shoes but he often does dawdle. I solve that in a number of different ways based on how the morning is going:

1) Calmly help him while we chat about our dreams and our day.

2) Get frustrated and raise my voice.

3) Special breakfasts: "I'll be making oatmeal for everyone who gets dressed really quickly!"

4) Pick out his clothes: "I will be glad to pick out your clothes for you!" He loves to pick out his own clothes so he will hop up and get moving, especially because I will invariably pick a shirt he doesn't want to wear.

5) Challenge him to see who can get dressed first.

6) Get him to help me: "Could you find my white shoes for me please?"

7) Set an earlier bedtime that night so we can get up earlier and have dawdling time, which is what it really comes down to for us. We are slow starters and need extra time in the morning; if we have extra time, we can get ready peacefully and happily together.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

When there's another one who's going to be disappointed, that's when I draw the line. "Your sister/brother will not be punished because you are dawdling. Missing X would hurt her. Get those shoes on now." And then, if the dawdler doesn't leap into action, I DO physically help them, because I really meant it about being unwilling to punish the other sibling.

Since my big ones are 4 and 6, usually the one who wants to get out the door will start cheerleading the other one, and that helps enormously. But that's probably not going to happen with your toddler for awhile yet - my toddler just started walking out to the car independently last week, and has no faint clue where her siblings are at in the getting-ready process.







So part of it may just be a waiting game.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dd couldn't buckle her car seat at 4. And I don't know if I'd trust her to listen to it click at that age. I'm not sure if she could do her shoes then either, but I do think she could dress herself, so long as there wasn't anything too complicated. But she absolutely needed me to be right on top of her reminding her to do it, if not helping along the way.

4 is still really young. My dd at 8 can do all of those things, despite me helping her for so long. And I do think they don't really have the same concept of time that we have, so the idea of "dawdling" isn't really there. They're just doing their thing with no idea of how long it takes or how much time they have.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

I noticed you have a 4 yr.old and an 18 mo. old. Here is the habit that I bet almost EVERY mom of more than one falls into. Baby is born and older sib looks SOOOO big in comparison that we expect them to behave older than they actually are. Remember, 4 is still really young. Not to mention, she has a sib, which means whatever you do to help 18 mo old, she is desperate for. She wants to know that you still have time for her, that her sister isn't taking away from her.

I just know that too often I wanted to expect dss or ds, or dd to be able to do things for themselves that even though they had the physical dexterity for, they just were not ready to be that independant. Don't worry, the day WILL come when you go to help her with her shoes and she says, "NO mom, I'm too big for your help". At that point, you'll miss the days when she begs for your help.


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## Kuba'sMama (Oct 8, 2004)

I will go against the grain here and say that I DO expect my four year old to do these things independantly (minus the buckling, I don't drive). She goes to school and the teacher expects them to do it by themselves for the most part as well. I don't think it's beyond their abilities at all. I personally do not know any children my dd's age that are not expected to put on their clothes or shoes by themselves and I know A LOT of 4 year olds.

I think for the most part the dawdling is a result of just not understanding the concept of "being on time". I try to make my mornings as smooth as possible ( I have a baby as well) by doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE the night before. So, laying out the outfits for everyone, preparing any snack bags, diaper bags, backpacks, etc, etc. Even pouring out cold cereal into bowls and putting out the spoons, so all that's left to do in the morning is just pouring milk over it. I think they might think we have more time than we do when they see us running around grabbing this and that and not being too organized ourselves. "Hey mom is dawdling, why shouldn't I, lol".

Give yourself more time than you think you need-- think you need about 20 minutes to get everyone dressed and out the door? Give yourself 40. I don't think 4 is too early to begin understanding the concept of time, my daughter can be told "we have to leave the house when the big hand is on 12", for example. Show her what time the playgroup (or whatever) starts, and what time you have to leave the house to make it.


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## Bay Area Babe (May 15, 2006)

Hey Kuba's Mama - Meet my 4yo!







Lucas turned four in August. He's just not interested even though he's fiercely independent. I don't push the issue and figure he'll do it when he's ready.

EdnaMarie - We miss things if DS dawdles though we only have one so there is no punishment for another sibling if we miss things. That would be incredibly unfair. But maybe once it happens a few times she'll figure it out. Sometimes DS has decided not to do things that I know that he loves (ice skating, park, story time, ride his bike) or we miss nearly all of something because he'd rather play with his Legos or read a story at home or take FOREVER to go to the bathroom. When he later realizes that he missed his chance, he's sometimes incredibly sad, and that is hard for me, but what is worse is a frustrated/angry mama from struggling to get out of the door. For us, that's also why we don't schedule many things with concrete times.

I like the suggestion of leaving in pajamas or whatnot or helping your DD1 get dressed. Sometimes I think my 4yo should be doing these things on his own, and if I forced him I am sure that he could/would, but it's just not my parenting style.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

The more you talk the worse it probably gets. If you can stay calm and "there" mentally, you can let go of the extra talk.

Our dd is 5.5 and has been dressing herself since she was quite young. However, even now she often needs more time than I would like. That is just how it is. When we need to go somewhere, I tell her we need to go now and help her find what she needs to wear. (She picks her own inside clothes, I pick the coat, etc. what is appropriate for the weather.) If she is for some reason not able to put her things on, I ask if she would like some help. Then I remind her once that we will go as soon as my clothes are on. If she chooses not to get dressed, I throw her clothes in my bag and we go. (No blame or anger there... Sometimes this is a lot of fun for her. You know, the shock of not wearing a coat, for example. Rebellious in a fun and safe way.) Since this is not a power struggle, she is also quick to ask for her coat, etc. when she starts to get cold.

If I needed to, I would also calmly take her out by the hand or carry her out. She knows that there is no option called "make other people be late." The options all have to do with how much and what clothing she puts on. At her age, it really also helps to have clothing she has picked out. (I buy most things used on Ebay and ask for dd's opinion before deciding to buy something.)

If all else fails, try to remember, that this will not last very long... Some years from now she will be dressed faster than you to get out the door...


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

Mine isn't quite 4 yet but she does have her own way of doing things.. A lot of times I have to help her out a lot. A few things that help:
1) I do everything in an assembly line. We all go to their room together and pick out clothes, take it to my room and lay them out. We all shower together, we all dress together. Usually if she sees me putting clothing on her little sister it prodes her into moving. If Im in a hurry Ill tell her something along the lines of "See if you can get dressed faster than DD2 and I can".
2) A lot of the problem with both girls doddling is that they have to many options. So I pick two things out and they pick one of the two. Otherwise just picking out clothing can take up to an hour and telling them we are going to miss something just doesn't work.
3) DD1 doesn't buckle herself in, she doesn't have the hand strength to do the croch buckle. Instead she will do her chest buckle (she knows to check the straps to make sure they are twisted) while i put in DD2 then I reach over and buckle her croch buckle. Takes maybe 30 seconds, a minute if Im worried the straps aren't done right.
4) Start getting ready EARLY. I try to start getting ready an hour before leaving the house. The more stressed/hurried I am the more they feed off of it and the worse it gets. Then I get more stressed, they slow down, stressing me out.. you get the drift. Finally I snap, the girls cry, I have to stop doing whatever it is Im doing (stressing myself out more) and calm them down.. etc. If I can keep myself from being stressed it stops some of the problems.

I wonder if its something to do with 4 year olds. The closer my daughter gets to four the more needy she is getting. She use to do a lot of things herself that she now insists she needs help to do. For example, shes been potty independant since shortly after her second birthday, lately shes been wanting me to take her to the potty and help her wiping. Two months ago she would have freaked and screamed NO if I tried to help her. Same with picking out clothes, brushing teeth, getting shoes on etc. She use to do it by herself, now she insists she needs help.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OkiMom* 
I wonder if its something to do with 4 year olds. The closer my daughter gets to four the more needy she is getting. She use to do a lot of things herself that she now insists she needs help to do. For example, shes been potty independant since shortly after her second birthday, lately shes been wanting me to take her to the potty and help her wiping. Two months ago she would have freaked and screamed NO if I tried to help her. Same with picking out clothes, brushing teeth, getting shoes on etc. She use to do it by herself, now she insists she needs help.

I think this is a natural phase before a new step in mental development. I know when I was 17 and about to go off to University, I regressed slightly and wanted to call my mom mommy, and slept in her bed for a while. I needed to know that if I couldn't do it, I could count on her to still love me. I think kids go through these phases around 4 or 5 again around 7 or 8 and then again before adolescence and at the end of it and really before any major life changing phase in life. I think they can sense that they are growing up and might not be as connected to us and so they hesitate in their development, wanting to hold on to us a little longer. The next thing you know they're off and away.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I think she may be capable, but she is looking for connection. It is not about her physically being able to dress etc, but about her wanting to know her mama is still there for her and willing to help her no matter what. (Does that make it less frustrating for you, probably not!







)

I think that *not* helping might make the phase last longer, because the underlying cause is more about connection and safety and all that good stuff. Making it not a big deal to ask/want/need help, will hopefully help her feel secure to do it alone.

Also seeing little sibling become more independant, but still getting/needing a lot of help and attention can be hard for the older (but still young) kid and she may just need to know that she will always be your baby too.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

DD is 5.5 and she can dress herself and do shoes. Our car seat buckle is kind of tough--I don't expect that.

Most mornings, I do dress her. It's just easier. I figure some day soon she will say I CAN DO IT MYSELF and not want me to. Since she started kindy, she has been protesting that she doesn't know how to dress herself. I figure she's regressing a bit/craving the attention so I've just been doing it.

At night she can put her jammies on fine. And I'm not usually time crunched so that's less stress for everyone.

DD lives in the moment, so the threat of missing something later has never mattered to her. And as you point out, it just really screws up your day. So, it sounds like an ineffective consequence.

What about, instead, talking about and rewarding cooperation? I talk to DD about cooperation a lot. It's not magic, but I feel like at 5.5 she is starting to get the concept that I can't do everything--and that her help and cooperation is really important.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
If that's what she's asking for, why are you withholding it? What's wrong with just helping her?

Neither of my kids could do these things independently at 4. They could physically do the steps, but they _needed_ my presence to keep them on task and engaged in what they were doing.

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and _would_ do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.

She won't go to college with you dressing her. Trust me on that one.

This is my DS1. I have only come to realise recently that his love language is acts of service. Well, actually, I had realised that before but I didn't connect it with wanting me to get him dressed / undressed. I have tried to battle with him over it, and now I am just going with it. I figure there will come a point where he won't want me to do it anymore and if it makes him feel loved, then why not do it? When he was younger I always gave him time to do things when he was ready (like toilet training, going to kindy etc) so I figure this is just one more thing that he will do when he is ready to do it.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?

Some of those things are almost completely under your control. It's up to you whether you all get out of the house, and it's up to you whether you nag or threaten.

It's up to her whether she does things herself. I mean, I'm sure there's all kinds of tricks, tips, and techniques out there that you could use to encourage her, but ultimately it's not entirely within your power.

So, you get to decide on any given day whether it's more important for you to get out of the house (and just do it for her), or whether it's more important for you to not have to help her (and just stay home). It helps if you figure out which is your priority before you start.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Thanks, everyone.

I should clarify one thing. One of the reasons I know she can physically do these things herself is that I spent the better part of 2.5 to 3.5 waiting patiently, oh, so patiently, as she insisted she would do it herself. Irrationally, because obviously we did not have an explicit contract, I feel I am "owed" a little help here now that she's even more skilled.







I know that she's not obligated, but I do think that it's fair to say she could do the things I'm asking, if she wanted.

I also will clarify that I always check the seat-belt buckle. I just want her to be in the habit.

Quote:

I think for the most part the dawdling is a result of just not understanding the concept of "being on time".
I absolutely agree with this. Has anyone heard the song, "Time" by Sweet Honey in the Rock? If not, you MUST LISTEN. It's hilarious and so refreshing.

Quote:

Give yourself more time than you think you need-- think you need about 20 minutes to get everyone dressed and out the door?
It takes us an HOUR!







It is THAT SLOW. I'd say 35 minutes if I did everything for her and that's without breakfast (eat in the car). You see... if I do it, she resists every step. If she does it, well, she doesn't do it.

I can reward her, but we often end up in a bribes/rewards arms race and I'm not comfortable with that. All of a sudden oatmeal isn't enough. It has to have chocolate, or be waffles (she demands this). And then there are two battles instead of one (go to bed, and no, no waffles...). Maybe I'm not good at explaining rewards to her?

Quote:

But maybe once it happens a few times she'll figure it out.
She hasn't. I think it's again due to a lack of understanding of time. She doesn't connect the two experiences (not getting dressed, not going to the park) because sometimes when she does get dressed, it seems like a long time before we get to the park, though I try to make it fast. Things come up. Or she didn't go to pre-school because she was too tired because she didn't go to bed. She's not a particularly consequence/logic oriented person and she just looks at me like I'm giving her a math fact when I explain that.

I am sure it will come sometime, but for now, I have to re-explain the immediate consequence each time. And it sounds like a threat.









Quote:

For us, that's also why we don't schedule many things with concrete times.
We have a balance with this but with two kids, pre-school, and limited daylight, things are tight. That is part of the problem and I am working over in my head how to make it work, but I just don't see how I can loosen it any while keeping the nap, meals, park, pre-school, bedtime routine, special time with each kid. Yep, that's pretty much it. LOL!

Okimom- I actually use a technique for getting dressed that completely eliminates clothes battles. We pick out our clothes for the week and put them in those Ikea hanging shelves. Top is Monday, next is Tuesday, etc. We have layers so there's never a weather question. You are right, I cannot IMAGINE picking clothes out at that hour... LOL!

Quote:

I try to make my mornings as smooth as possible ( I have a baby as well) by doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE the night before. So, laying out the outfits for everyone, preparing any snack bags, diaper bags, backpacks, etc, etc. Even pouring out cold cereal into bowls and putting out the spoons, so all that's left to do in the morning is just pouring milk over it.
This kind of depresses me because I do that, too, and we don't even eat breakfast, LOL!

I literally stand next to her, if not getting her dressed, repeating calmly, "Now take your pyjama bottoms off. Pyjama bottoms off. Bottoms off. Take your..." She runs away. I bring her back and firmly repeat, until she does it.

Yes, of course I could do it for her. But again, that is another struggle.

Sticker chart: We actually did this for awhile, but then she would have meltdowns if she didn't get the star!!! Ugh. "It's disappointing, but you needed to..." had zero effect. I don't think that will work for her at this point. I plan on introducing it again later, though.

Quote:

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and would do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.
Thank you. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel... LOL! I will just do it, even if she battles. I will also read the love languages book. I think DD is definitely a "gifts"/"service" person. I am XNTP, and she and DH are both ESTP or ESFP (or in-between).

Quote:

So, you get to decide on any given day whether it's more important for you to get out of the house (and just do it for her), or whether it's more important for you to not have to help her (and just stay home). It helps if you figure out which is your priority before you start.
This is a good point. I think part of the problem is that I'm somewhat conflicted, and therefore not as confident. Maybe she's picking up on that.

I will set first grade as my goal (end of first grade, she'll be nearly eight by that time as she's an October baby) and count this as part of our "special time" knowing that she can do it, but prefers not to. That gives me a lot of time to relax about it.

Thanks again, everyone...


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Our morning routine takes 40 minutes from bed to bus with me doing everything from dressing to breakfast, including feeding baby on one boob while pumping her lunch on the other. DH is responsible for packing DS's snack. If we insisted DS do it alone it would probably take us an hour and a half of:

"under wear, under wear, under wear, under wear, now, under wear. up. now pants, no unbutton first, unbutton first , unbutton first, now up. pants up. pull pants up. up! C'mon, dude! T-shirt now. no, the other way round. Arms don't go there, Oh dear god, you're stretching out the neck. C'mon, do it right, please. You're killing me, Benjamin. What you are doing is killing me, one torturous second at a time. Put it on!...etc etc etc."

Endless frustration.

I would say if it takes her an hour and you really want her to do it, give her an hour and a half, just to be safe. Turns out they go to bed way earlier when you wake them up at the crack of dawn, too.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 

I would say if it takes her an hour and you really want her to do it, give her an hour and a half, just to be safe. Turns out they go to bed way earlier when you wake them up at the crack of dawn, too.









We already wake up at 6:30, and no, they don't go to bed earlier. Not my kids. DD2 does if I can manage to put her down on time, but DD1 hits a wall and turns into Crazy Child from Crazy Land. She is sleepwalking the whole evening. She still needs and takes a nap, but if she goes crazy before I get her in bed, I have hell to pay.

This is how I learned to be a sleep fascist. It's hard. It's the inverse of those kids that wake up at 5:30 a.m. no matter when you put them to bed (which would be worse, IMO).


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I haven't read all of the posts, so not sure if this has been suggested yet, but...

What I do when dh is out of town (and therefore not available to help in the mornings) is to *dress dd in her clothes the night before*. She springs out of bed ready to go (minus the shoes of course). I read the suggestion here on MDC and I admit I thought it was weird at first - wouldn't the clothes be all wrinkled and dirty or something. But no. Most kid's clothes are easy wear cotton that doesn't look any different after having been slept in. And kids this age don't really get stinky unless they spill stuff on themselves or something. If you put the clothes on after her bath they will be fine for the next day.

As for helping your dd... well, my dd is 6 and very much capable of getting dressed, coat on, shoes on, etc by herself, but if we are pushed for time I will tie her shoes for her and put on her coat if she wants help. It's stressful enough getting out the door and I am prepared to do what it takes to make it go smoother. Ever since I let go of thinking that she should be doing it herself _*my*_ life is so much easier. I finally had the realization that this will not go on forever, and is not a battle worth fighting, esp if it's going to make life more difficult for everyone.

My dd also has a younger sibling (like yours) and I definitely think part of this needing to be "babied" comes about from seeing their younger sibling getting everything taken care of by you. IME the best thing is to just go along with it. Fill her "being babied" cup and this phase will pass sooner. I also think it's an age-related thing, so there's a double whammy at play. But the age will pass too.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I just read your update. I thought you were talking about a long period of time. It takes me and my dd an hour to get dressed and out the door and I thought that was great with my coffee time and the time it takes for our bodies to wake up. I think it is awesome that you can get two kids and yourself out of the house in an hour much less 35 minutes. I suggest looking for things later in the day if at all possible.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Thanks, everyone.

I should clarify one thing. One of the reasons I know she can physically do these things herself is that I spent the better part of 2.5 to 3.5 waiting patiently, oh, so patiently, as she insisted she would do it herself. Irrationally, because obviously we did not have an explicit contract, I feel I am "owed" a little help here now that she's even more skilled.







I know that she's not obligated, but I do think that it's fair to say she could do the things I'm asking, if she wanted.

Yes, I think that child development is timed to drive parents completely batty. At 2, when they can barely do things, _they must do them all by themselves._ At 4, when they can do things, they don't want to!

I think part of this is the push-pull aspect of being 4. They're teetering at the brink of childhood. They're not toddlers, but they're very young children. Some days they really want to be big kids. On others, they need to be 'babied'.

I realize that our ds is insanely late in his self-care skills (he's my 'acts of service kid' with fine motor delays), but now that he's 9, and hasn't had me help him get dressed in 3 years, _I miss the time together!_

I'd also say that an hour from wake up to getting out the door is decent for one mom and 2 kids! It takes ME an hour to get going and dh has already gotten the kids up, dressed and off to school.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
She hasn't. I think it's again due to a lack of understanding of time. She doesn't connect the two experiences (not getting dressed, not going to the park) because sometimes when she does get dressed, it seems like a long time before we get to the park, though I try to make it fast. Things come up.

Would a visual schedule help her? They use these a lot in preschools (dd's kindergarten used one). A picture for each 'step' of the routine.

That might give her some more control over the situation intellectually -- "Look at the schedule, what's on there today?" "Ah, going to the park. What do we need to do before we go to the park? Get dressed! OK, let's all go get dressed. Bring your clothes into my room and we'll see who can get dressed first/I'll help you get dressed."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Or she didn't go to pre-school because she was too tired because she didn't go to bed. She's not a particularly consequence/logic oriented person and she just looks at me like I'm giving her a math fact when I explain that.

That connection is probably too remote for her -- she's stayed up late the night before, slept in, and now can't go to preschool? At 4, consequences need to be fairly immediate for them to make the connection. (and they have to care.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I literally stand next to her, if not getting her dressed, repeating calmly, "Now take your pyjama bottoms off. Pyjama bottoms off. Bottoms off. Take your..." She runs away. I bring her back and firmly repeat, until she does it.

Have you tried Playful Parenting ideas with her? At that age, all I had to do was put dd's socks on her hands for her to be there begging me to do something like that again. She'd correct me, we'd laugh, I'd do it right, then we'd put on the next piece of clothing. All it took was 2-3 'wrong' pieces of clothing getting her dressed to make her happy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Sticker chart: We actually did this for awhile, but then she would have meltdowns if she didn't get the star!!! Ugh. "It's disappointing, but you needed to..." had zero effect. I don't think that will work for her at this point. I plan on introducing it again later, though.

They work for some kids, they don't for others. they generally don't work that well for kids under 4 at all, because they don't get the connection between behavior and later reward.

That being said, sticker charts worked beautifully with ds. Not so well for dd. The last time I tried, the pay-off wasn't immediate enough and I was trying to work on too many things at once. (It had doing homework, chores and piano without whining. She took it and wrote in big letters "I HAT CHORES" (hat = hate).) For us, the reward is always something non-food -- usually special time with mom/dad. Some people use a marble jar -- if you do your job, you put a marble in the jar. When the jar is full, you get your reward. The marbles are more tangible than stickers for some kids. (And you can start with a really really small jar to build success!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I am XNTP, and she and DH are both ESTP or ESFP (or in-between).

If she's an E, she may NEED to social interaction to get things done. I'm an INTJ, and my E daughter can really be wearing on me.


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## Greenmama2 (Jul 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I'd also say that an hour from wake up to getting out the door is decent for one mom and 2 kids! It takes ME an hour to get going and dh has already gotten the kids up, dressed and off to school.










My two are the same age as the OP's. Today DD had a ballet class at 3:30pm. I started preparing her to get out the door at 11:30am. Seriously. I dressed her too although I she did shoes.
As for buckling, DD can undo her seatbelt and knows it's ok to do so after the engine is turned off but mostly she still waits for us. She does not do it up herself.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

dress dd in her clothes the night before.
I have thought about that, but I do let them sometimes sleep in their clothes (after Friday prayers) and my opinion is that they do look pretty wrinkly and frumpy. They are cotton clothes but it just doesn't work.

Quote:

I started preparing her to get out the door at 11:30am. Seriously. I dressed her too although I she did shoes.
I guess I'd deal with that if I had to, but I just can't face that right now. I love being outdoors and moving around and I hate playing mind games. The prospect of spending two or three hours playing mind-games, indoors, while daylight fades, is enough to make me want to give up.

Quote:

Have you tried Playful Parenting ideas with her?
Yes, and they work great... when I can work up the enthusiasm. I am so not playful. LOL! I try, though. Before coffee, I often just forget.

Quote:

Would a visual schedule help her?
You know... I'm not sure. I tried it before and she got way, way, way too distracted. The game became, "Let's ask mommy all about this chart. What is that? What is that? Why isn't there a check-mark here? LIsten to me read it! Read it to me!" Or, she would not look at it at all. Period. Just... no. Her dad does not do visual reminders. He has to have the thing itself IN HIS HAND.

That is why my house gets covered in junk. To remind himself he needs to pack next week, _he put a suitcase in the front hall_. To remind himself to send a package, _he put the package on the kitchen table_. (We eat there nightly. There is no clutter there. He just... saw a free space and presumably thought, "Great! Now I won't have to write this down!) When I make him lists, he says I'm creating drama.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Sorry, posted too early. Anyway, DD likes to organize THINGS visually too. However, with DD2, we can't have stuff sitting out or it all gets spread around and we are all miserable. Keep the ideas coming... she is very much an experiential, social, verbal learner, though she is versatile.

Maybe I should build an obstacle course in the playroom and have her go through it there? And time her? That would just require way more effort than I'm prepared to go through on a daily basis!









Also, I should note this is not only in the mornings. It's for a lot of stuff, since we come home, eat, blah blah blah, then go back out to the park, to appointments.

I do think that doing it for her will really help, though. You all are right, if I don't push it it has to end sometime and this is just not a battle I need to choose.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl*
What I do when dh is out of town (and therefore not available to help in the mornings) is to *dress dd in her clothes the night before*. She springs out of bed ready to go (minus the shoes of course).

We often do this because Sundays are the only morning we get up much earlier than normal. Either dd sleeps in her dress or I dress her while she sits on the toilet. (She wears a lot of stretchy cotton dresses. YK, not the kids that get wrinkled easily.) Then I comb her hair, also while she is still sitting on the toilet. It works well, because she is tired and liked to just sit there. Then she puts on her shoes and coat and is usually the first one ready to go. This gives her a couple of extra minutes to decide whether any dolls are coming with, etc. We have a 30 min drive to church, so she eats in the car, if she is willing to eat. This works really well for us.

I did not suggest sleeping in her clothes because most Americans I know seem to really like the "bath, then pajamas" routine. As dd does not get dirty in her sleep, really, I have never been so big on pajamas. As long as she is wearing something clean, warm or cool enough and comfortable, anything goes.


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## Greenmama2 (Jul 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I guess I'd deal with that if I had to, but I just can't face that right now. I love being outdoors and moving around and I hate playing mind games. The prospect of spending two or three hours playing mind-games, indoors, while daylight fades, is enough to make me want to give up.

I hate playing games like that too, but you see starting so early actually helped me to avoid them. I know it's not necessarily helpful if you're already up at 6 and have to be out the door by 8 or whatever but if I can catch DD at an opportune moment with enough time beforehand that I can offer another activity before we go (for us today it was lunch and violin practice) I can get all the annoying stuff out of the way before either of us get stressed about time running out.

As for sleeping in clothes, we've done that when we've needed to get to the airport super early and a couple of time DD has worn a comfy but non-pyjama top to bed then worn it the next day with a dress over the top. I don't think it's noticeable to the casual observer but I probably wouldn't do it everyday.


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## hazelmama (Nov 2, 2004)

At that age our biggest hurdle was getting the toy clean up finished in time for bed. My DD was willing and would start, but would get distracted or sidetracked and the task would take forever with lots of nagging and everyone generally unhappy and over tired by the end. After trying a bunch of different things to make the job easier and faster, eventually I realized that for my DD the lack of time sense was the biggest obstacle.

What I found really worked for us was using a visual timer. We used a free one at online-stopwatch.com since the computer is in a good centrally located position where she could easily check on it. They have a bunch of different formats but the one that worked best for my DD was the one called clock countdown. I still had to remind her occasionally to check how much time she had left, especially in the beginning, but being able to see the time elapsing and how much time she had left made a world of difference for us. Also, we both found that those reminders here and there to check the timer felt much less like nagging which had a very positive impact on both of our attitudes.

Anyway, it might be something to try out. Good luck!


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

My 4.5 yo youngest ds is much the same. He is perfectly capable of dressing himself, washing his face, brushing his teeth, etc. He would often choose not to and fuss about it. I would try the whole natural consequences thing and he could care less. I stressed about him not doing it for a couple of months and tried to find ways to get him to do it. No go. Finally I just "gave" in and started doing it all for him again. Now, a month or two later, he is slowly getting back to doing most of it himself now that it isn't a power struggle. I'm not totally positive it was a power struggle, it might have been part of the acts of service thing that other posters were talking about.

I have a 15 yo who still likes me to do things for him, even though they are things he could easily do (not involving dressing of course, but maybe making toast or hot chocolate or whatever). Sometimes it totally goes over the line into him just being lazy and I say no but other times it is really him wanting his mother to take care of him.

Sorry I have no solutions, just commiseration.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

A stopwatch, beat the clock, I wanted to do that, bought a timer, and it broke right away! I will have to look that up again...

And yes, I'm pretty attached to bedtime then pyjamas. For us, they double as house-clothes. They are what gets stained with breakfast. We wear our pyjamas indoors, street clothes outside. So it's much more than just... bedtime wear.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses but was in a similar rut with my 4 year old. I really didn't want to do the whole 'race' or playful parenting thing b/c to me it's a respect issue. I shouldn't have to 'trick' you into getting ready on time.

So I just started to pick some treat he had planned for that afternoon and using that as the currency. The first day it was a DVD we had gotten from redbox. I said maybe 3 times that if he didn't put on his shoes or his pants or whatever that we'd have to return the DVD on the way to school b/c we wouldn't have time to watch it that afternoon. He didn't listen so we went ahead and returned the DVD. You can imagine the drama that ensued but I stayed calm and it made a huge impact.

Now I sometimes have to remind him of something that'll be lost if he won't comply and he gets ready without drama.

We are all happier. No more morning drama. He's on time for school and things are just much calmer.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I haven't read all the responses but was in a similar rut with my 4 year old. I really didn't want to do the whole 'race' or playful parenting thing b/c to me it's a respect issue. I shouldn't have to 'trick' you into getting ready on time.

So I just started to pick some treat he had planned for that afternoon and using that as the currency. The first day it was a DVD we had gotten from redbox. I said maybe 3 times that if he didn't put on his shoes or his pants or whatever that we'd have to return the DVD on the way to school b/c we wouldn't have time to watch it that afternoon. He didn't listen so we went ahead and returned the DVD. You can imagine the drama that ensued but I stayed calm and it made a huge impact.

Now I sometimes have to remind him of something that'll be lost if he won't comply and he gets ready without drama.

We are all happier. No more morning drama. He's on time for school and things are just much calmer.

I wish that worked for us.

My problem is twofold.

First, she doesn't respond to that, so we end up losing the treat. Since our only treats are things we do together, it means we're all punished. Plus, they are healthy parts of our routines. We really don't have a lot of time for anything that is not part of our positive life routine. Therefore, her misbehavior actually takes away from our positive time together, which IMO is going to make it worse in the short and long-run.

Second, the since she doesn't respond to it, we don't get anywhere. If I have a series of treats ("Now you've lost the park... now you've lost your story... now you've lost your fruit at lunch...") she will go through them one by one. It's crazy. To her it's a game.

Oh wait, it's threefold. The very mention of a lost privilege throws her into a mope. "I WANT THE PARK!" Now, that is unacceptable, but the whole point is, I want to get out the door. Not teach daily lessons on how to respond to natural consequences--not at that very moment. So, no.










I don't think that playful parenting is a trick. My point is just, "We're going to do it, I want it fast and you want it fun, let's compromise." I know lots of adults that use "star charts" (to-do books... surely you know people that make ex post facto lists and check them off?), adults that use games (there are MANY women on here that use beat-the-clock for their own chores), and so on.

Yes, some adults use self-imposed punishments as well, but for a lot of people those don't work.

Bribes and punishments get me in an arms race far, far too quickly. She'd be in perpetual time-out and I know because we were nearly there for my most recent thread... it was just awful.

Playful parenting has taught her that we can do things together and enjoy life. Yes, she needs to learn to drudge through it as well but I want to AVOID berating her as I don't think it motivates her.

I'm willing to wait until she can comprehend consequences better... that is okay.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I really didn't want to do the whole 'race' or playful parenting thing b/c to me it's a respect issue. I shouldn't have to 'trick' you into getting ready on time.

I would encourage you to read Playful Parenting. The whole point of the book is to create connection and respect with your child. It's not about tricking them or using reverse psychology. It's about creating connection with your child.

I'd also view this as a respect issue -- respecting that my child as an individual who deserves a reason to do something they'd rather not. If a little connection helps give them that reason, why not? I haven't had to use Playful Parenting to get my 9 year old dressed in _years_. He just does it. Yet when he was 3-4, it was necessary.

And I agree with EdnaMarie, lots of adults have things they do to make chores more palatable. I listen to my mp3 player while doing the dishes. NPRs Wait Wait Don't Tell Me makes that task manageable. My dh watches TV while he folds laundry. Our whole family has 15 minutes each evening where we do chores. This actually started when dh and I were married without kids because our ideas of when/how to do chores were so different. 15 minutes a day was a compromise between his "do it when it's absolutely necessary " and my "clean for 4 hours every Saturday". The fact that we're doing this _together_ as a family is what makes it work, despite the fact that my kids aren't thrilled about it. Playful Parenting is about doing things together and building connection.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
So I just started to pick some treat he had planned for that afternoon and using that as the currency.

That might have worked with my ds and not at all with my dd. She's remarkably resistant to rewards and punishments. For her, the _only_ way to get her to do things is _connection_. On days when I can tell that chores are going to be hard to do, I have her work _with_ me. On days when getting out of the house is difficult, we get dressed together. I dressed her nearly every day in Kindergarten. It's about once a week now in 1st grade.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I don't think that playful parenting is a trick. My point is just, "We're going to do it, I want it fast and you want it fun, let's compromise." I know lots of adults that use "star charts" (to-do books... surely you know people that make ex post facto lists and check them off?), adults that use games (there are MANY women on here that use beat-the-clock for their own chores), and so on.

Yep. Flylady.net is full of tips to get onerous things done in a managable way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Yes, some adults use self-imposed punishments as well, but for a lot of people those don't work.

Bribes and punishments get me in an arms race far, far too quickly. She'd be in perpetual time-out and I know because we were nearly there for my most recent thread... it was just awful.









Same for us.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

EdnaMarie, is there any chance since her dad is so much like her that HE could do the playful parenting once in a while and get her dressed (when he's home, IIRC he's off and away a lot -- which also has to make it difficult to get it up for games) just to give you a break?

I guess that's a long shot, but I must say I find it a lot easier to have patience and playfulness with the kids when DH has given me a break for a few hours each weekend. I just need to recharge my playful mama batteries now and then, ya know?

Like maybe before he heads off to his work day he could get her up and dressed and have her ready to go before you even wake up.

Is that just crazy talk?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Ugh, I wish to goodness my dd just wanted me to put the clothes on her. Nope, she wants to stay naked and in the warm toasty bed, preferably nursing.

I'm going to try getting a set of pajamas and see if she does better with getting zipped into one thing instead of putting on several layers of clothes. I figure that way she can get snuggled out to the car and into her seat, get some more rest, and







: be more cheerful and ready to get dressed later on.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

And silly idea here, since she might be socially motivated, could you have her show dd2 how clothes go on (while you get yourself dressed) and then she helps you get dd2's clothes on?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

NPRs Wait Wait Don't Tell Me makes that task manageable.
I don't think I could survive without that show.

Rebekah-- No. He's military. Rarely here for those moments, and he often reverts to how he remembers being raised, which is orders and ridiculous threats that cannot be implemented. He is trying to improve and he certainly does some of it but I can't depend on that as a strategy.

Quote:

And silly idea here, since she might be socially motivated, could you have her show dd2 how clothes go on (while you get yourself dressed) and then she helps you get dd2's clothes on?
Although that would lead to unbelievable cuteness, it would not help time-wise, LOL! Sometimes we do that with jammies. It is really, really cute how she helps her sister.

"No, no, baby, I said head. Those are your cute little baby feet. Put it over your head. Here, I'll help..." Mayhem ensues as baby gets jammies stuck on head and tries to find self, big sister runs off to get a screwdriver to undo buttons for dramatic effect, baby is toddling around like a fool with no face, etc.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Rebekah-- No. He's military. Rarely here for those moments, and he often reverts to how he remembers being raised, which is orders and ridiculous threats that cannot be implemented. He is trying to improve and he certainly does some of it but I can't depend on that as a strategy.

I thought that's what it was...I guess I was just hoping he might be able to do it before he had to leave the house...like 5am or something. That sucks. It must be so overhwleming to never be able to share that load (or never want to because he shouts and rants.)







Don't take that in a condescending way, I really sincerely mean it. I would NOT be able to handle your situation alone. I'd be a ticking time bomb.

Quote:

Although that would lead to unbelievable cuteness, it would not help time-wise, LOL! Sometimes we do that with jammies. It is really, really cute how she helps her sister.

"No, no, baby, I said head. Those are your cute little baby feet. Put it over your head. Here, I'll help..." Mayhem ensues as baby gets jammies stuck on head and tries to find self, big sister runs off to get a screwdriver to undo buttons for dramatic effect, baby is toddling around like a fool with no face, etc.








I can only imagine the chaos. Cute but chaos.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Rebekah, no, I understand what you mean and yes, it does suck! I hate not having a partner in this stuff. It is so unfair because I married a salary man only to find out that my kids' father was dreaming of having his own business and a workaholic to boot, then joined the military.







I feel like if he had only told me that he planned on working 24/7 and stuff, I would have backed off, but here we are.

But that, my friend, is a different post.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> 
> And silly idea here, since she might be socially motivated, could you have her show dd2 how clothes go on (while you get yourself dressed) and then she helps you get dd2's clothes on?
> ...










(can't find rotflmao smiley) That is actually really cool, I only have a 2 year old, so I didn't realize a 4 year old might be able to help that much. I was thinking more like your DD1 would put on her OWN clothes while DD2 watches and then DD1 could hand you DD2's clothes as needed.

Something else that might help, my dd is going through a "pretend baby" phase and I get her dressed by using really exaggerated baby talk like I never used when she really was a baby. I actually imitate how 6 years talk to her "hello cute little baby, do you need your clothesies on? Gimme your widdle baby foots!" It seems to result in more cooperation for getting dressed when she wants me to get her dressed. So we're done in <5 minutes instead of chasing around for 15+.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, SC, if only I could stomach it... I do it at times but then she starts in with the baby talk and even drools and it's gross. Gross, I tell you. I let her have her moments, I really do, but on a daily basis I just couldn't take it, LOL!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> Oh, SC, if only I could stomach it... I do it at times but then she starts in with the baby talk and even drools and it's gross. Gross, I tell you. I let her have her moments, I really do, but on a daily basis I just couldn't take it, LOL!


Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Er sorry, I was just thinking back to the days when dd would slime my knee so much she'd slide off as she was gumming away. *shudder* Thank goodness her pretend play is simply not that advanced yet.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, that is awful. DD was never much of a drooler, is the thing, so it's doubly gross. I keep explaining: "It's cute when babies do baby things. It's cute when YOU do four-year-old things. What would a cute four-year-old do right now?" That works so I don't want to play up the baby thing.

FWIW, me doing it is going great. I am okay with her "do it sewf!" phase being just a phase and it being the new normal for me to buckle and dress her in the morning. So naturally half the time she does it herself without a fuss now. LOL! So that was great advice ladies. <3 That is supposed to be a heart. I am still figuring out the new forum, can't deal with smileys.


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## llwr (Feb 24, 2009)

I haven't read all the replies.

My 3.5 DD is also a dawdler. It has helped us a lot for her to race her little sister (13 mos). It took a while to catch on, but now she's super-fast dressing and getting in the car seat -- even starting the buckles herself. (I always check and tighten them). But if she doesn't win (usually not a problem), she screams and screams. So I usually let her win.

I know it's really hard to be waiting on a dawdler when there's so many other things to do. And I would never know if helping would get it done or just cause a tantrum! Or she would say she wanted help but it was really hard to give while taking care of the baby as well.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Wait, are you me?










Racing works but she freaks out if she loses, and sometimes, she dawdles so much she's bound to do. We still use this tactic.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *llwr*
> 
> I haven't read all the replies.
> 
> ...


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