# "SAHM jobs" vs. SAH full-time



## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

I hope this doesn't sound judgemental because I am just being honest about something that has been bothering me... (a whole new level of SAHM guilt)

One of my SAHM friends (my only one in the area), just got what she calls a "SAHM job" doing home parties. She was talking about how much extra $$$ they'll have to spend (they aren't in need). She was planning who would care for her young toddler while she was gone. They are rather AP, so I was extra suprised. They are buying a super cool vechical for her DH.

My gut-reaction was 'another one bites the dust.' (Is that wrong?) I just feel like it is becoming less acceptable to just SAH. Now if you SAH, you are also susposed to sell tupperwear/do daycare/be continuing your education/etc- anything as long as it's something in addition to SAH all day!

It doesn't help that I always have people (even ones that barely know me) ask me to do daycare for them once they hear what my job is. It feels like are implying that I do nothing all day- I could flip burgers or clean tolites and they wouldn't ask me, but since I *just* apparently sit around and babysit my DC all day, I should bring in some $$$ afterall, and raise their DC too. They always are so suprised/confused when I don't jump at the chance!

Okay, so there is my vent. There isn't anything wrong with a "SAH job" (expessially if you need one), but there also is Nothing Wrong With Only SAH!!!


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I have a similar problem when I compare myself to other people, even if they're WOHMs with more money instead of WAHMS. I tell myself that I would rather live my simple lifestyle than have such a consumer-oriented lifestyle, and really I would. But it's hard to see that, sometimes. I would love to be able to go to the mall and drop a couple hundred dollars on clothes. Then again, I simply cannot see myself doing that even if I had the $$ to spend. I like a simple lifestyle, and I guess there are some "things" that I like to have, but not to the degree that others seem to need them. Yes, a newer car would be great, but ours works just fine, and I know I would tire of making the payments. Perspective, perspective...


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## prmom (Jun 14, 2004)

Faith-I am a SAHM that needs to provide daycare inorder to supplement our small income. That said...I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with focusing on being SAH FT. I also think there are many reasons that one might do something in addition to SAH and it's not fair to judge that imo. Of course I get the impression that you feel like maybe you are judged for not taking on something additional to SAH. Do any of you feel like sometimes you can't win no matter what decision you make? I know I do. I just hope that in light of all of our decisions that we first consider how it will affect our dc and work to make it the best situation possible for them.


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

I have gone back and forth myself. When ds was 15 months old, I got a PT job at Starbucks almost exclusively to get out at night, talk to other adults, listen to nice music, and deal with people who didn't kick, scream, cry or bite me when they didn't get their way







It was fun, although harder work than I thought, and I lasted there about ten months.

I sold Pampered Chef for about six months this year, again to get the brain in motion and bring in a few extra pennies.

To tell the truth, I tend to look down my nose at mothers who say that working (usually FT) makes them a better mom -- but I have to say that so far cycling between FT SAHM and short-term PT jobs has worked for me.

Most of the SAHMs I know do just that, BTW (stay-home and nothing else)-- they think I am the weird one (or the money grubber







)


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I agree it is not socially acceptable to "just stay at home." I homeschool and somewhere in the back of my mind part of the reason is so I'm not "just staying at home." My sister has her kids in school and she is always involved in this or that and taking on too many responsibilities and for her too it is so she's not "just staying at home."

You're expectd to do "something else" these days, whether its stimulating your kids' brain with the latest thingy designed by brain development experts or forming great friendships with other SAHMs or taking DC to this activity or that activity. I call them cruiseship moms. (I hope that doesn't offend anyone!) But when my sister tells me that she feels she should be doing this class or that group, or that she should have her kids put on a play or learn about fractions by making bread, I tell her, Mothers are not cruisehip directors. Just be a mom, you're fine, and let the kids enertain themselves.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think all SAHMs should be expected to have side jobs, that seems silly. I see why a lot have them and need them, but that's another matter. We employ one SAHM to do data entry for us -- she earns a very good hourly rate while her child naps. They could probably make it without it, but it's nice to have extra. We have children the same age and we asked if she would babysit ours for about 4 hours a week (we were across the street neighbors at the time). She said no, she wanted to be free with her daughter. When asking her I certainly didn't do so because I thought she should take the job, but asked because it could have been a good fit with the two children. So I guess what I am saying here is that my motives in asking her were not to demean her decision, I just thought she might want the job. Had she been flipping burgers, I probably wouldn't have given a thought to asking her.

BTW, we're very AP and I now have help with child care for 25 hours a week. A good friend of our family is on a sabbatical from other work and is living with us and caring for Frederick. He has his own private teacher really -- she spends no more than 2 hours with him at a stretch and takes him around the house doing all kinds of fun things. She is gifted with children. And he really needs a whole lot of stimulation in a day -- more than I could ever give him on my own. So for us, this is working better for him than if I were not working. (My husband and I both work out of our home which makes all of this managable.) My point here is that AP and childcare are not necessarily incompatible either, though I do see that we have a very unusual situation and are extremely fortunate to have this person here.


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## bwylde (Feb 19, 2004)

It seems that people think that because I stay home, I would want to do home daycare too. I don't, I'm not intrested. SOme probably think we could use the money and while it would be nice, I kind of side with Tana. I'm content with what we have (most days I think we have too much, lol!). I'm busy enough with my own kids and trying to keep up the house let alone care for someone else's. I'm happy with how things are.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Maybe the mom wants the social outlet with a bit of financial benefit from party profits.







Money might not be an object to them as a family, but maybe she wants a bit of her "own" money for herself, kwim?

I have a dear friend who has been home for the better part of the last 14 years. She has liked it, enjoyed it, and is very content being a sahm. Yet, she felt a bit unsettled with this, because she couldn't understand why she didn't feel compelled to do anything else. She was no stepford wife, and no desperate housewife. Why aren't women "allowed" to be content in making hearth and home their focus? I cant understand that. Its not fair.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I was 'just' a SAHM after ds1 was born until he was about 15 mos or so. Then we figured we just needed more money, so I was going to do home daycare. Went through almost the whole state certification process when my old job called back and said they had a huge project and would I like to come back as a temp for a couple of months. I said yes, I loved my old job and MIL would watch the kids, and I could pick my own hours. So I worked about 20 hrs a week, making $15/hr for 3 mos. During this time, I realized how much I missed adult conversation and how much I DIDN'T want to do daycare. I mean, if my kids were too much sometimes, how could I bring in extra kids, KWIM? I knew Iwould have to WOHM eventually, when kids were back in school, so I decided rather than take a part time job now, I will reenroll in school to become a teacher. I've been in school now for a year and half and will graduate in a year and a half.

Ds2 came along in the middle of this and it has been rough while pg and after delivery, but I've managed. Do I think people who are 'just' SAHM are slacking, no, of course not. Do I think WOHM are abandoning their kids, no, of course not. I do what I need to do and is comfortable for my family and I assume everyone else is doing the same. I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer and the SAHMs who choose to do home parties have many reasons for wanting to do this- money, social interaction, etc. (I'm also a very PT Mary Kay rep).


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I just feel like it is becoming less acceptable to just SAH. Now if you SAH, you are also susposed to sell tupperwear/do daycare/be continuing your education/etc- anything as long as it's something in addition to SAH all day!

There isn't anything wrong with a "SAH job" (expessially if you need one), but there also is Nothing Wrong With Only SAH!!!

I agree with you that working as an at home mother does not get the respect that it so absolutely deserves. How wonderful would it be if all mothers banded together to make mothering (whether you work outside the home or not) be a valued job?

However, I cannot stop noting the prevalence on this board of moms who are at home saying that moms who work outside the home are having someone else

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
raise their dc

No one except for my husband and me raises our daughter and until we are all able to accept that I am going to mercilessly point it out. Because I take pride in supporting sahms, wahms, wohms, and every other variation of parenting and I really wish that more people would join up. The "I'm better than they are" crap that is spouted by mothers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pageta*
I tell myself that I would rather live my simple lifestyle than have such a consumer-oriented lifestyle...Perspective, perspective

gets _really_ old.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Maybe the mom wants the social outlet with a bit of financial benefit from party profits.







Money might not be an object to them as a family, but maybe she wants a bit of her "own" money for herself, kwim?

Great point! I am in school 3/4 time and though I don't make one red cent to contribute to our household expenses I _do_ feel that _I_ am a *much* better mother because of it.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I do work some, but I still consider myself a SAHM. I provide childcare at my UU church. I am talking like 8 hours every other week tops. Ds goes with me to play with the other kids. For him it is like a playdate and for me it is a little bit of extra cash which allows me to afford Christmas presents, and cloth diapers. Money is really tight, and I never could have cd'd ds if I didn't do this. I also sell stuff on ebay, but that really takes no time at all and it is mostly ds's outgrown clothes and toys. I do that at naptime, and after he goes to bed or while he has his special Daddy time in the evenings. Some people may say that I am not a full time SAHM but I feel like I am. I am always with ds, he is never with a baby sitter unless it is with my mom on the occasional times Dh and I want to go to a movie and dinner.


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## owen&mama (Jan 3, 2003)

HEAR, HEAR Nicole77 and sweetbaby3! No parent - SAH, WAH, WOH, or otherwise - should have to justify his/her choices to anyone.


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## wawap (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *owen&mama*
HEAR, HEAR Nicole77 and sweetbaby3! No parent - SAH, WAH, WOH, or otherwise - should have to justify his/her choices to anyone.











"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.

Laura


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I totally hear you that it seems people generally expect that if you are a stay at home mom that you should be doing something else as well. It's frustrating and annoying. I often hear "so what are you going to do in addition to staying home?" ummmmm, grocery shop, take care of the kids, do the housework.... etc., etc.


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## giarose (Aug 9, 2004)

hi, i'm a SAHM and when people ask what do I do all day, I can't help laughing. I think we are more ready to be defensive more than anything when we hear this question, but I think many people actually ask this question out of curiousity. If we pause before we answer, we might realize that people are genuinely interested in what we do and how we are able to accomplish it. SAH is not for everyone. It is hard work. I'm not saying people can't handle it, or that it is harder or better than work non-SAH parents do, it is DIFFERENT. It is another job that people do day to day. It has it's own stresses, ups and downs, management issues and communication breakdowns, just like any other job. I must say that it takes a lot more patience, spontaneity, flexiblity, creativity, endurance, and planning than any other job I've had. Some friends were actually concerned that I was SAH because they thought it wouldn't be good for me, since I'm so outgoing and was good at my job, and because we live in this small town where we don't know anyone. "what are you going to do all by yourself out in podunkville...?" (Then again, none of my friends have any kids, so they don't understand what it entails.) I'm not by myself. Hello? I have a kid. Some fmaily members didn't even think I'd last as a SAHM or that I could bf for more than three months. Well, it's been 8 mos so far and we're still going strong. So, what do I do all day? Who am I now that I have a child? I'm an athlete (running after ds before he gets into something, picking him up, putting him down, taking walks), I'm an entertainer (read books, sing, play guitar, dance, make goofy faces and voices), I'm a chef (cooking up pureed variations) as well as a milk maid







, I'm a first repsonder (comforting my ds when he falls down and bumps his head), I'm a teacher and a student (everything is a learning experience now, for both of us), I'm so many things that I never knew I could be, oh yeah, I'm a Mom too.
I'm PROUD to be a SAHM. SAHMs of the world UNITE... ha, ha. I totally agree that people expect you to be more, but I think it's because they don't expect that it would be satisfying in and of itself. We have to let them know it is.


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

I feel very centered as a SAHM, but due to financial considerations I'm starting working PT in January. I feel a lot of apprehension and a great sense of loss about having to give up the balance and "rightness" that I feel right now in order to go work. I feel very unsupported for my feelings that just concentrating on my family is right for me: When I share my feelings with my DH or others IRL, I feel like they think I'm just being a whiny brat for wanting to stay home with my toddler.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
It doesn't help that I always have people (even ones that barely know me) ask me to do daycare for them once they hear what my job is. It feels like are implying that I do nothing all day- I could flip burgers or clean tolites and they wouldn't ask me, but since I *just* apparently sit around and babysit my DC all day, I should bring in some $$$ afterall, and raise their DC too. They always are so suprised/confused when I don't jump at the chance!

That could be me writing! I had a guy at church that attended DH & I's baptism class that we teach. We ran into he and his DW and their new DD. They had no childcare set up yet for when DW was going back to work next week (huh?) He said could I watch his newborn since I already was at home?!







: I guess as mil said, I could in a way be flattered but she also agreed, he has no clue what is involved in raising kids at home.
I also had a lady behind the counter at Casual Corner say to me "What a LUXURY to be staying home" I answered "No, its a choice DH and I made long before we started our family. The Luxury is having our daughter."


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

ahh...another reason why I love you ladies....
Just when I'm having a thought in my head that I'm having a hard time putting into words, one of you goddesses articulates it sooo well!

Quote:

It doesn't help that I always have people (even ones that barely know me) ask me to do daycare for them once they hear what my job is. It feels like are implying that I do nothing all day- I could flip burgers or clean tolites and they wouldn't ask me, but since I *just* apparently sit around and babysit my DC all day, I should bring in some $$$ afterall, and raise their DC too. They always are so suprised/confused when I don't jump at the chance!
I tried to get this point across in a post but failed...
I agree totally!


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meli65*
To tell the truth, I tend to look down my nose at mothers who say that working (usually FT) makes them a better mom -- but I have to say that so far cycling between FT SAHM and short-term PT jobs has worked for me.

Why not just focus on the part that works for you, instead of "looking down your nose" at what's "wrong" with other women's choices? This endless cycle of judgment does no one any good....


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wawap*









"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.

Laura

I'm getting that tattooed on my forehead.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Never understand why this is an issue. Really.

I didn't intend to be a "WAHM" so that I could say I have a job, improve my self-esteem or any other reason.

I started working at home because when I left the outside-workforce to have babies, we could no longer afford to buy food. Plain and simple. Not enough money, once we got past our montly 'nut,' for food. DH is well employed, BTW. Just that we live in an expensive city, and when I was in the workforce, I made a lot more money than him.










And WAH-work is in the middle of the night so as not to interfere with my daytime mama-work. So what does that make me? Does "WAHM" mean child-care issues?

And who cares? What's it anyone's business?


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## AmyG (Jan 30, 2002)

I don't think that anyone has a problem with mom's who get jobs becasue they need them, or even because they want them. The issue is that some moms feel they HAVE to get a job just to seem like they're doing something, when raising children is enough to keep you plenty busy. We shouldn't have to get a job to make people not think we're lazy. If we feel happy and fulfilled "just" being SAHMs, that should be plenty.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *giarose*
hi, i'm a SAHM and when people ask what do I do all day, I can't help laughing. I think we are more ready to be defensive more than anything when we hear this question, but I think many people actually ask this question out of curiousity.









Before I had my son, I couldn't imagine what could possibly keep me occupied all day. The thought of staying home with a child was so far beyond my reality that I couldn't even envision what it would look like, you know?

I've generally found that when people ask me this, they sincerely want to know what my day looks like. And after I tell them, they usually express awe and tell me that they don't know how I do it.

Since I've been in law school, I've been very (pleasantly) surprised by people's reactions. Going in, I halfway expected to be looked down upon by these young, upwardly-mobile, career-minded people for choosing to be home with my son during the day. Instead, they usually just shake their heads and say they don't know how I do it. - they compare their school/work responsibilities to mine and openly acknowledge that they have the easier lot.

I think people are beginning to realize more and more exactly how much work is involved with taking care of children and a house. Of course, there are still the random yahoos out there - probably higher concentrations of them in some areas - who think that women sit around and eat bon-bons all day. Around here it seems as though they're a dying breed.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Okay, here is an alternative perspective on this. I recently started working two hours a week teaching gymnastics to girls (5-6 & 7-9). I love gymnastics, I enjoy spending time with older kids and really like that we get a free membership/free classes to the facility (my older son takes swimming lessons there and my little guy does a mommy and me gym class) I know a number of women who sah ft and don't do any sidework for $$$. Totally fine with me, I could care less and totally respect their decision to not work for $$$. However, a few of them have hinted that they just couldn't leave their kids to work two hours a week....which would be fine but sort of rubs me wrong since they do a monthly mom's night out and take aerobics a couple of times a week and one does a weekly bible study during the day and puts both of her kids in the church daycare. (My little guy is with his dad during my classes and my big guy takes his swimming lessons at the sametime)

It sort of bugs me that my activity is somehow seen as less appropriate, more selfish, and less "mom" like since I get paid for it (which at $25 a week seems bizarre as well - it certainly isn't funding any trips to the mall or new SUVs)

BJ
Barney & Ben







"Daddy, maybe you can be a teacher like mommy when you grow-up"


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

My close friend who had two kids about ten years ago could not wait to go back to work. So when I had my ds she assumed I would go back to work (I was a career minded fanatic). So she was shocked when I resigned.

She kept asking me how my day is and how I am coping. I really think she kept thinking I would quit and go back to the workforce. She has given up since my ds will be one yr old in a couple of weeks.

I don't feel the need to get a side job, nor do I look down on anyone that does. But like everything in life, you will always get some bad apples. However, when my kids are ready to start pre-school, etc, I am thinking of going p/t. 8-16hrs a week. I would also work the night shift, so my ds would stay with daddy.

Whatever works for each individual. I always imagine this is my last day alive. Am I happy with the decisions I have made? So far...yes!!!!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

It's her and her families buisness and perogitive. There is no exclusive SAH club that have rules that say you cannot do anything that may or may not fulfill your own needs as a human being if you are a SAHP.
I don't get that this is an issue for you?

Why does everything have to be SO black and white? Life is colorful! Live it!


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nicole77*
However, I cannot stop noting the prevalence on this board of moms who are at home saying that moms who work outside the home are having someone else

"raise their DC"

No one except for my husband and me raises our daughter and until we are all able to accept that I am going to mercilessly point it out.


This is OT from what I was saying (that it is okay to only SAH), but I wanted to respond...

I completely disagree! If I SAH everyday from 9-5 with my DC, what am I doing? Raising them, of course. If I also have my neighbors two kids here during that time (cooking for them, listening to them, answering their big & little questions, reading to them, discplining them, helping them go potty, etc...), what am I doing? I call it helping raise them. I might even be doing *more* of it than their own parents are, by the time they get here to pick them up at six and have them in bed by nine. If I am just baby-sitting them, then I am just baby-sitting my own DC as well- and I can tell you that is not what SAHMs are doing all day.

I really feel strongly about this. I used to work in a daycare and spend 45 hours a week, day in and day out with these sweet little DC. I saw most of them way more than their own moms did. I kissed their boo-boos, held them, sung them to sleep.... *These two-year-olds were being raised, no matter who was there doing it!* Children are beng raised 24/7, and don't stop just because their mom isn't around.

No one denys the effect teachers/peers/family have on a child. I also do not deny the effect a person has who spends a significant ammount of time with them, even if they are paid help.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
It's her and her families buisness and perogitive. There is no exclusive SAH club that have rules that say you cannot do anything that may or may not fulfill your own needs as a human being if you are a SAHP.
I don't get that this is an issue for you?

Why does everything have to be SO black and white? Life is colorful! Live it!


I think you missed my point. I am living my life, not sure what that is supposed to mean..?

All my OP was about was that IT IS OKAY to ONLY SAH!!!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Maybe you are fulfilled doing what you do, and hey that's great! But perhaps she has needs that have to be fulfilled by other means other than being a SAHM.

"another one bites the dust...."
I don't get that.

What I meant by" life is colorful, live it..." Every person is different and that means different things to different people. You live your life the best way that siuts you and your family, and also let her live hers. Looks to me like she is living hers too.....


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*

All my OP was about was that IT IS OKAY to ONLY SAH!!!









For you.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
This is OT from what I was saying (that it is okay to only SAH), but I wanted to respond...

I completely disagree! If I SAH everyday from 9-5 with my DC, what am I doing? Raising them, of course. If I also have my neighbors two kids here during that time (cooking for them, listening to them, answering their big & little questions, reading to them, discplining them, helping them go potty, etc...), what am I doing? I call it helping raise them. I might even be doing *more* of it than their own parents are, by the time they get here to pick them up at six and have them in bed by nine. If I am just baby-sitting them, then I am just baby-sitting my own DC as well- and I can tell you that is not what SAHMs are doing all day.

I really feel strongly about this. I used to work in a daycare and spend 45 hours a week, day in and day out with these sweet little DC. I saw most of them way more than their own moms did. I kissed their boo-boos, held them, sung them to sleep.... *These two-year-olds were being raised, no matter who was there doing it!* Children are beng raised 24/7, and don't stop just because their mom isn't around.

No one denys the effect teachers/peers/family have on a child. I also do not deny the effect a person has who spends a significant ammount of time with them, even if they are paid help.

No there is a difference between cariong for and raising. This was said in another thread MUCH better than I can say it. Children understand the difference bewteen the people who sometiems/often take care of them and the people (usually parents) who raise them. Think back to Kindergarden and 1st grade - no matter how important your teachers were to you, no matter how much time you spent with them (in first grade, you spent more awake time with your teacher than with your mom), no matter how many hugs they gave you, no matter how many questions of yours they answered - you knew the difference between their values/answers and the values/truths your parents were raising you by. Teachers and daycare workers do not raise kids. They care for them, they love them, they answer thier questions, they teach them. But that is not the same thing as "raising them." This is more than sematics, though sematics are important becase saying a daycare worker is raising a child is, in addition to being incorrect, perjorative and hurtful to the millions of wohp who are raising thier kids by a different method but to the same degree that you are rasing yours.

Until peer groups become important in middle school, parents are the number #1 influence on kids. his is the same for sahm and wohm.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

This is an interesting point, and it seems like it revolves around semantics to me.

I think of everyone who comes into contact with my child as "helping to raise" them. I love the influence (for the most part







) that other adults have had on my children.

I can understand that it would be hurtful for a WOHP to hear that "someone else is raising their child". It implies that the child is as close to the caregiver as she is to the parents.

Everyone's situation is different. We all spend different quanities & qualities of time with our children.

I do ponder the truth in the "someone else is raising your child" statement. My dd goes to play in a co-op preschool once a week. For the time I am not with her, she is dealing with situations without my help...and she really likes this bit of independence. As much as I LOVE





















the teacher, I would feel the balance of what I was trying to teach my dd would be upset by her being there 5 days.

The way I see it, my dd can spend time with me; I love her and accept her unconditionally. Or, she could be in daycare with a wonderful person whose love could never touch the realm of my love for her...No matter how wonderful the person, it is still a cash deal. No matter how much they love the child, they are still being paid to do it. It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday.

These are all off topic thoughts, open to any discussion, not meant to cause a rift or war, only discussion.

To the OP, I wouldn't think she's biting the dust







just pursuing other options, I guess


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
For you.


And others as well...

It almost seems like breastfeeding and formula feeding. How many more moms would SAH if it were PC to do so, if they saw it done more, if there were more support, etc?

How many SAHMs give up because they are the only ones they know who do it, because of outside pressure, because society tells them it isn't enough..?

I just feel bad when a mom decides not to be a SAHM, just like I feel bad when a mom doesn't BF... It is just what *I* feel is a child's birthright and it shouldn't be taken away from them. You don't have to agree with me, but that is what I think.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

In all honesty, I don't think that there are a ton of moms who work because they "don't know that they can stay home." They work because they want to or they have to, or some combination of the two.
May I suggest that instead of focusing your efforts on informing mothers that they can stay home and should because it is their child's "birthright," you focus instead on making staying at home an option for _all mothers who *want* to excercise it_?

You could start by writing your senators and representative and asking them to re-examine the welfare to work act. They seem to think that poor mothers should not have the option to stay home with their children. Then you could lobby congress to provide a living wage to women who wish to stay home with their children, replete with social security benefits and healthcare.

Kaly


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
And others as well...

It almost seems like breastfeeding and formula feeding. How many more moms would SAH if it were PC to do so, if they saw it done more, if there were more support, etc?

How many SAHMs give up because they are the only ones they know who do it, because of outside pressure, because society tells them it isn't enough..?

I just feel bad when a mom decides not to be a SAHM, just like I feel bad when a mom doesn't BF... It is just what *I* feel is a child's birthright and it shouldn't be taken away from them. You don't have to agree with me, but that is what I think.









No I don't agree with you. A Parent staying home with kids is not universally preferable to kids in childcare. Breast is universally preferable to formula (though some parents have to feed thier kids formula for one reason or another).

Apples and oranges.

I'm glad you found what works for your family. Because it wirks for your family does not mean it is the best way.

Yes, women need more support and options and choices, with that I agree.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I'm glad you found what works for your family. Because it wirks for your family does not mean it is the best way.

Thank you.
K


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
The way I see it, my dd can spend time with me; I love her and accept her unconditionally. Or, she could be in daycare with a wonderful person whose love could never touch the realm of my love for her...No matter how wonderful the person, it is still a cash deal. No matter how much they love the child, they are still being paid to do it. It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday.

Because that wonderful person's love can never touch her the realm of your love for her, because she knows this (kids sense so much), this person's answers and values and perspective will never carry near the weight with your child that your do. That is why the daycare worker can't raise another person's child.

I also think that as long as a child gets unconditional love from a parent and has enough time with that parent, then they are getting all they need. The catcher is "enough time." And what is enough is for every parent/child to decide (and it probably differs depending on teh parent and the child - some parents give more of themselves to thier kids when they are with them and so thier kids may need less time with these parents. Some kids need more due to innate temperment.

My dad worked 60 hours weeks and I spent all day with my sahm. I have teh same quantity and quality of memories of my dad as I do of my mom. I should, time-wise, have 100X the memories of my mom. But she gave about the same amount/intensity/focus (whatever you want to call it) of attention to us in 8 hours as my dad did in a half hour.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
May I suggest that instead of focusing your efforts on informing mothers that they can stay home and should because it is their child's "birthright," you focus instead on making staying at home an option for _all mothers who *want* to excercise it_?

You could start by writing your senators and representative and asking them to re-examine the welfare to work act. They seem to think that poor mothers should not have the option to stay home with their children. Then you could lobby congress to provide a living wage to women who wish to stay home with their children, replete with social security benefits and healthcare.

Kaly

no thank you


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I also think that as long as a child gets unconditional love from a parent and has enough time with that parent, then they are getting all they need. The catcher is "enough time." And what is enough is for every parent/child to decide (and it probably differs depending on teh parent and the child - some parents give more of themselves to thier kids when they are with them and so thier kids may need less time with these parents. Some kids need more due to innate temperment.









I would also add "what *kind* of time" to the concept of "enough time." If a parent is at home full time but is miserable, disengaged, or resentful of it, is that really better for the child (or the family) than if that parent spent fewer hours at home but was more loving and engaged during that time? If a parent is SAH but wishes he or she weren't, that's not a really great "birthright," IMO.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Faith, I do understand what you are trying to say, I am also a SAHM and plan on being one for a looong time because my children will be homeschooled. I think you have however, missed my point.

I think you should not judge her because she made the choice she did.

Peace


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
This is more than sematics, though sematics are important becase saying a daycare worker is raising a child is, in addition to being incorrect, perjorative and hurtful to the millions of wohp who are raising thier kids by a different method but to the same degree that you are rasing yours.

Why? Don't we always go on about how it "takes a village" to raise a child. A childcare provider is part of that village. I can understand it being a hurtful comment if it's put forth in the manner of, "You're not even raising your own child - you have a childcare provider doing it for you." But a childcare provider helping you to raise your child? If that's offensive to a person, that person should probably evaluate why they take offense to such a statement, because there's something more deeply rooted there.

My child spends time with me, his father (separate from me), and a good bit of time with my mother and stepfather. I absolutely think that my mother and stepfather are helping to raise my son. They have considerable influence on him. I also think that the friends we hang out with on a daily basis who interact on more than a superficial level with my child are helping to raise him. They're all influencing his world view, his self-esteem, his manner of being.

No skin off my teeth.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
You could start by writing your senators and representative and asking them to re-examine the welfare to work act. They seem to think that poor mothers should not have the option to stay home with their children. Then you could lobby congress to provide a living wage to women who wish to stay home with their children, replete with social security benefits and healthcare.


Great ideas!


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## prmom (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Why? Don't we always go on about how it "takes a village" to raise a child. A childcare provider is part of that village. I can understand it being a hurtful comment if it's put forth in the manner of, "You're not even raising your own child - you have a childcare provider doing it for you." But a childcare provider helping you to raise your child? If that's offensive to a person, that person should probably evaluate why they take offense to such a statement, because there's something more deeply rooted there.









I did not SAH for ds1 and I felt that part of my job as a parent was choosing someone who I felt comfortable with helping me raise my child. I think why that comment about someone else raising your child is so hurtful sometimes is b/c it implies that the parent is doing nothing. When infact, choosing someone to be with your child is a huge responsiblity. I am all about it taking a village even now that I SAH with my children. My family and friends definetely play a part in it. Though at the same time, it is important for parents to take main responsibility.

I find it very elitist to say that one MUST stay home with their dc. I agree with those who mentioned doing something proactive to help our society be more SAHP friendly, but the reality is that it is very difficult for many people to do. Even though I provide some childcare for others for added income, it is still tight for us to pay our bills. That said, it is a beautiful thing when a mother can be a full time SAHM and it is equally beautiful for a parent to make being with their children (quantity and quality) a big priority regardless of their work status.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
But a childcare provider helping you to raise your child? If that's offensive to a person, that person should probably evaluate why they take offense to such a statement, because there's something more deeply rooted there.

My child spends time with me, his father (separate from me), and a good bit of time with my mother and stepfather. I absolutely think that my mother and stepfather are helping to raise my son. They have considerable influence on him. I also think that the friends we hang out with on a daily basis who interact on more than a superficial level with my child are helping to raise him. They're all influencing his world view, his self-esteem, his manner of being.

No skin off my teeth.









Notice how you always say "helping raise." I noticed the earlier poster wrote that two. What a world of difference it makes to say "they are helping raise" or "influencing" and to say "they are raising."

I find saying "a childcare working is raising your child" offensive even though I don't have kids yet and when I do I plan on being a sahm as my mom was a sahm. So nope, nothing more deeply rooted there.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Notice how you always say "helping raise." I noticed the earlier poster wrote that two. What a world of difference it makes to say "they are helping raise" or "influencing" and to say "they are raising."

I find saying "a childcare working is raising your child" offensive even though I don't have kids yet and when I do I plan on being a sahm as my mom was a sahm. So nope, nothing more deeply rooted there.

Yup. Very different.

I imagine that the WOH partners of SAHPs would not like the implication that they are not raising their children.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain
The way I see it, my dd can spend time with me; I love her and accept her unconditionally. Or, she could be in daycare with a wonderful person whose love could never touch the realm of my love for her...No matter how wonderful the person, it is still a cash deal. No matter how much they love the child, they are still being paid to do it. *It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday*








Did I really read this correctly? Yikes.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

why oh why does it always turn this way????????????????????????


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Okay, I just started this thread because my *only SAHM friend within driving distance is no longer only SAH. I think there is pressure (like I allready said) to not be "just" a SAHM, but to also sell things on ebay/volunteer 3x a week/whatever- just as long as you are doing *anything in addition to raising your DC.

I don't see at all how AP fits in with paying someone else to spend time with your child. I just don't and never will. Another caregiver can't nurse your DC, can't love and care for them the way only a mother would- and that's what I think my DC deserve. If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not going to hang out just to argue about it. I am adult enough to realize we all have our own opinions.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday
You know, I'm a nanny and while I don't watch the kids every day, there's no "bad vibe." However, I'm totally against daycare for my own kids, partly because of my own experience being a nanny and working in a daycare center. It's not because of bad things that can happen. It's because of all the good things. With the kids I watch, I'm the one doing everything with them (except for the one family I work for that uses other care very rarely). With my own kids, I want to be the one with them, seeing all the cool things they do.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

To the OP- yes, it should be ok to "just SAH". And- clearly it is- for you.

I have a WAH business b/c I have to- and b/c I want to. I also do lots of volunteer work- which is clearly a "want to" thing.

When I did "just SAH" I was not happy- not b/c society at large made me feel that way, I just did feel that way.

I have never used a sitter in almost 5 years of parenting. My kids are with me and/or dh over 99% of the time and with my own mama less than 1% of the time. That is what works for us. I have chosen volunteer work that I can bring my kids with me, and my WAH jobs don't take me from my kids either.

Truth be told, I don't know many mamas who "just SAH", most of my mama friends do some work for money (from home or out of home) and many volunteer with their dc in tow.

I think the most important part of your post is to validate that your choice to "just SAH" is a valid one







. Just try not to take offense that that wasn't "working" for your friend. She's a good mama, and so are you.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
No I don't agree with you. A Parent staying home with kids is not universally preferable to kids in childcare. Breast is universally preferable to formula (though some parents have to feed thier kids formula for one reason or another).

Apples and oranges.

I'm glad you found what works for your family. Because it wirks for your family does not mean it is the best way.

Yes, women need more support and options and choices, with that I agree.


It is the best way if it works for your family. Its not comparing apples to oranges but close. What works for our family is me being home with our DD. It also worked best to Extendbf as well as letting her decide when finished. I do not see a lot of my peers doing that (excluding my friends at mothering of course!) or that it would work for them. But their children are no worse off because of it. To each his own.
I also have seen many children in the company of both their caretaker as well as the company of their parents. A good portion of the time they are better off with the caretaker person than with their parents. I think some people belong at work and have someone else taking care of their children. Maybe they should not have had children but I guess thats too late to change now
isn't it?

Its a shame we have to go back & forth like this instead of supporting one another for the choice that is in fact best for thier family.







:


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
Okay, I just started this thread because my *only SAHM friend within driving distance is no longer only SAH. I think there is pressure (like I allready said) to not be "just" a SAHM, but to also sell things on ebay/volunteer 3x a week/whatever- just as long as you are doing *anything in addition to raising your DC.
I don't see at all how AP fits in with paying someone else to spend time with your child. I just don't and never will. Another caregiver can't nurse your DC, can't love and care for them the way only a mother would- and that's what I think my DC deserve. If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not going to hang out just to argue about it. I am adult enough to realize we all have our own opinions.









Gee Faith, I hope I don't meet you in a darkened alley and you want to see my AP, SAHM credentials!







:

I will tell you how AP fits in with paying someone to be with my child. I have a mother's helper the last 2 summers come over a morning a week and play with DD. I got so much done and DD loved being with this wonderful 13 yr old. She now babysits for us at night once in a while. This way DH and I can get out and be husband and wife which is what we were BEFORE DD came and will always be after DD grows up. We want to be this way since this is what created DD. Also we both practice AP- the only thing DH has never done for her is nurse her! (even though she tried at 3 days old and got a nipple on his chest and owwww! from her Daddy)
We also have DD spend time with both sets of grandparents. Sometimes with us, sometimes without. She is very close with both as well as other extended family.
Forgive your tupperware friend for not living up to your AP SAHM standards and wanting to do something for herself so when shes away, she can think of her family and then go home and be a great wife and mom. Who knows, maybe she will recruit you too!


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
If I also have my neighbors two kids here during that time (cooking for them, listening to them, answering their big & little questions, reading to them, discplining them, helping them go potty, etc...), what am I doing? I call it helping raise them. I might even be doing *more* of it than their own parents are, by the time they get here to pick them up at six and have them in bed by nine.

I saw most of them way more than their own moms did. I kissed their boo-boos, held them, sung them to sleep.... *These two-year-olds were being raised, no matter who was there doing it!* Children are beng raised 24/7, and don't stop just because their mom isn't around.

All my OP was about was that IT IS OKAY to ONLY SAH!!!

Now that the OP has been so amazingly condescending and self-righteous I see that she has fled the building. Good for her that is OKAY to ONLY SAH...I guess tough $h!t for everyone else that she has decided that it isn't okay to do anything else. We better all hurry home so that we can be good moms like she is...I would hate to be letting someone else raise my child after all.

Of course, I haven't seen hide nor hair of the preschool teachers that are "raising" her for me when she is vomiting in the middle of the night, needs new shoes or clothes, is being taught a moral lesson of any kind, has a nightmare, or needs to be sat with so she can fall asleep at night. I also don't see them spending a lot of time worrying how their choices of discipline, health, and parenting will impact her future. I didn't see them in the room when I was giving birth. I haven't ever seen any of them feeding her from their own bodies. I didn't see them doing research about vaccinations, schooling, organic food, cloth diapers, or anything else for that matter. I don't see them planning how to impart the morals that will give her guidance in her later years. I don't see them planning family vacations to expose her to other cultures in the world. I don't see them lying awake at night planning potty training or birthday parties. I don't see them trying to keep her safe from media influences or violence. I don't see them spending a lot of time making sure that she has a balanced and nutritious diet. I don't see them disciplining her in a way that will truly teach her something as opposed to solving a problem in the short term. I don't see them teaching her what it means to be an open-minded, intelligent, and independent woman. I don't see them saving money for her college, choosing the best possible care for her when they can't be around, planning her schooling, taking her to museums, spending hours reading her stories, or even giving her their complete and undivided attention. I don't see their hearts break when she is sad or hurt.

I was a nanny for four children for three years. I was with them 4 days a week from 7am until their father got home at 6pm. At the time, before I had children, I thought that I spent so much time with them, that I was in effect raising them, that I loved them just as much as I would someday love my own children. Guess what? I was an idiot. When I got sick and stayed home it wasn't me who juggled their schedules around to be there. When they were sick it wasn't me who was up with them all night, or who was home with them mopping up vomit. When I got the chance to attend a good college on scholarship I just went. I didn't have to plan for the future of the children I had been watching. I wasn't their parent. I had my own life and it didn't involve raising or worrying about four children. Not once did I have to worry about how my actions today might impact the rest of their lives. And guess what? Even though their mother worked a lot of hours when she came home they ran through that house like crazy people to get to her. They loved her with a love that I never even came close to. And she loved them back. They never questioned who their mother was, who was raising them. And neither does our daughter. I guess that children are just smarter than most adults.

Well, seeing as I am ranting all over the place and am obviously too angry to respond as eloquently as others already have I suppose that for now I better away.

Sheer idiocy and ignorance. Few things piss me off more.


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## owen&mama (Jan 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nicole77*
Sheer idiocy and ignorance. Few things piss me off more.




















































Thank you.....


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## delighted.mama (Jan 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *owen&mama*
Thank you.....


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

I almost laughed when I read some of these heated responses. Jeez- me wishing it was more PC to only SAH made some of you lose it. Calm down and just take the OP for what it was and don't read your own agenda/guilt into it, okay?









I am allowed to my own opinion, and I believe that a SAHM is best. If you are soooo okay with not just SAH, then why are you blowing up? I don't even care... I was just venting a bit about society in general, not out to listen to people tell me how right they are in really childish ways... Grow up.








Why would I want to stay here and listen to that?


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I almost laughed when I read some of these heated responses. Jeez- me wishing it was more PC to only SAH made some of you lose it. Calm down and just take the OP for what it was and don't read your own agenda/guilt into it, okay?









I am allowed to my own opinion, and I believe that a SAHM is best. If you are soooo okay with not just SAH, then why are you blowing up? I don't even care... I was just venting a bit about society in general, not out to listen to people tell me how right they are in really childish ways... Grow up.








Why would I want to stay here and listen to that?

Right, so if we took issue with your post it is because we are guilty and defensive and usnure of our own decisions? Well, I'm not a mom yet and when I am I plan to be a sahm, but I still that that sahm is only "best" for for some, for some it isn't at all best.

Also, while society is hard on sahm, it is super hard on wohm; it isn't anymore pc to wohm than it is to sahm. Our society is very screwed about women's work and so upholds and degrades mothing at the same time. In other words, the focus of your frustration is misguided. It isn't at soceity telling women to do more than mother (because women who do more than just mother are told they should just mother), it is at society's misogeny.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Also, while society is hard on sahm, it is super hard on wohm; it isn't anymore pc to wohm than it is to sahm. Our society is very screwed about women's work and so upholds and degrades mothing at the same time. In other words, the focus of your frustration is misguided. It isn't at soceity telling women to do more than mother (because women who do more than just mother are told they should just mother), it is at society's misogeny.

Wow.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I am allowed to my own opinion, and I believe that a SAHM is best. If you are soooo okay with not just SAH, then why are you blowing up? I don't even care... I was just venting a bit about society in general, not out to listen to people tell me how right they are in really childish ways... Grow up.








Why would I want to stay here and listen to that?









I didn't blow up. I do not think it was childish nor was anyone else's response. If anything it was childish for YOU to judge anyone for taking time to spend away from children for earning $$ to live, get on ebay, sell tupperware, etc.
Grow up yourself...
Please remember how you got the children and love your partner. I once heard someone I worked with say "My wife left me for my children" I was a wife before I had DD and I will always be her mother. But she needs to see her parents loving each other and their marriage. She also needs to see a happy, confident, and loving mother. You should have an outside interest so your children know you are also a person as well. This way while growing up they know that you were not put on this earth to serve them but to mother them which includes making sure your needs are also taken care of. You need to save yourself before you can save them. This is why you friend is selling tupperware- for her. Believe me, its not enough money to think she is demoralizing herself by giving into society. Or maybe she really likes the product and wants the discount.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
If you are soooo okay with not just SAH, then why are you blowing up?

Darn, I forgot the ever useful "I must be right because what I said p!ssed you off, therefore you must feel guilty" argument. By that logic you must feel guilty for staying home since you need to so vigorously defend it. This has become utterly useless. Thank you for perpetuating the bull$h!t that society heaps on all mothers. I guess you aren't really looking to make things better, are you?

To Amys1st, mamawanabe, wawap, kaydeesac, charmarty, zipperump-a-zoomum, and all the rest...you guys rock!


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wawap*









"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.

Laura

This bears repeating...


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Nicolee77- thank you, I try to rock!

But since my 15 minutes is almost up on this subject,








I think we need to say- remember we are all in this together. Not everyone is going to be happy being a SAHM. An unhappy mama leads to all kinds of other problems.
Faith- if being a SAHM 100% with out any sort of anything else works for you-then more power to you. But don't look down on others because its not their cup of tea.

As a SAHM I have never worked so hard in my life. There is no lunch hours, breaks, vacation days, or quitting time to leave. Nor are there raises etc. BTW- I am not complaining I am explaining! Thats quite an adjustment for a lot of people though and if getting out of the house a few hours a week helps the mom, then more power to her as well.

Remember, this is a very diposable society. For most woman now- there are so many choices that your grandmothers did not have. If you went to school- you could study what you were interested in. If you decided it didn't work, you could switch majors. If the guy you were in a relationship wasn't going anywhere, you could trade him in for a new model. You can work and if the job or career choice is not your thing, you have the means to do something about it. There are so many choices out there.

But, when the baby comes, you cannot undo that- its not going back- nor can you trade it in for a new one! If you spend your time with the baby or if you have to be away from the baby to fill a financial need, the baby is not going away. With choices comes other problems but we need to support these woman who make different choices than our own. Their children are the same generation as your children and they could cross paths some day.

Faith I wish you the best, and again, if I meet you in a darkened alley, don't be too hard on me since I don't live up to your expectations. But remember you may run into one day as a fellow PTA parent, friend at church, a LLL member, or even yet- future MIL to your children. It may not be me, but someone just like me and she also would not appreciate the high expectations and judgement put on her or her children


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I see a lot of defensiveness on this thread too. Many women don't feel like they're allowed to "just" SAHM. That's how it is. NO ONE FEELS LIKE THEY'RE NOT *ALLOWED* TO SELL SHIT ON E-BAY, or have Tupperware parties, or sell Avon. In fact, you are encouraged to do so both culturally and by the shiny, shiny money.

This is the second thread I've seen in five minutes that degenerated into paycheck mamas berating SAHM's for daring to suggest that we just might have something special to complain about.


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## prmom (Jun 14, 2004)

SAH full time parents having anything to complain about is acceptable. Using phrases like "another one bites the dust" or "paycheck mamas" in reference to SAHP who have to or choose to generate some type of income is elitist and insulting.

I think it is one thing to complain about people's judgements of SAHM/D FT, yet another to complain and then judge others. Why does it have to be such a war? I know I hate having to explain that I need to provide childcare to supplement our tiny income, yet at the same time I am glad that the environment I live in is surrounded by SAH full time and PT who appear more accepting then what I would have epected from so called more open-minded AP mamas.

I love coming to MDC and seeing the diversity in here. I hate seeing the diversity being compared and challenged. To repeat what I already said, there is nothing wrong with complaining about how one feels judged. It is another to complain about feeling judged and then fueling fire to the judgement cycle.

To repeat the wonderful quote I read earlier "Mothering will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact."- Laura


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Part of that respect is not personalizing someone else's expressions of aggravation at her own situatuion. If what the OP said made you hot under the collar, maybe, just maybe that's your problem and not hers. Give her the respect of understanding that she is having a normal exasperated reaction to irritating circumstances. Give me the respect of slowing down for five minutes and thinking "ok, paycheck mamas bothers me, but maybe I'm not seeing something here." For heaven's sake, "paycheck mamas" is from FLYLADY. How can you get less elitist than Flylady?


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Urklemama, I am going to assume that you have not read this thread in its entirety. No one had any complaints about what the OP's original intent was...in fact, many people (including wohms) echoed her frustrations that parenting your children isn't considered valuable by much of society. The only thing that I took issue with in her op was her comment that she was being asked to

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
raise their DC too

This kind of comment is uncalled for and I explained quite calmly why I felt that way. The response of Faith and others to that included comments like:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
If I also have my neighbors two kids here during that time (cooking for them, listening to them, answering their big & little questions, reading to them, discplining them, helping them go potty, etc...), what am I doing? I call it helping raise them. I might even be doing *more* of it than their own parents are, by the time they get here to pick them up at six and have them in bed by nine.
*These two-year-olds were being raised, no matter who was there doing it!*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pageta*
I tell myself that I would rather live my simple lifestyle than have such a consumer-oriented lifestyle...Perspective, perspective


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountain*
The way I see it, my dd can spend time with me; I love her and accept her unconditionally. Or, she could be in daycare with a wonderful person whose love could never touch the realm of my love for her...No matter how wonderful the person, it is still a cash deal. No matter how much they love the child, they are still being paid to do it. It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I just feel bad when a mom decides not to be a SAHM, just like I feel bad when a mom doesn't BF... It is just what *I* feel is a child's birthright and it shouldn't be taken away from them.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I don't see at all how AP fits in with paying someone else to spend time with your child. I just don't and never will.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
me wishing it was more PC to only SAH

Nothing like a little bit of re-written history. If this post was only about according sahm the respect that they so absolutely deserve then I would have been right on that bandwagon. However, in the minds of Faith, Pageta, and Mountain you can only truly give respect to sahm by denegrating other mothers, by being self righteous and condescending about the choices others have made, and by making yourself the be-all, end-all authority on how to be a "good" mother. And that sucks. If mothers continue to deal with societal issues towards mothering this way then we may as well give up now...what is the point? They don't even have to attack us anymore...we do it quite well enough to ourselves. What a shame.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laura*
"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Is Momma getting her needs met? Are the kids getting their needs met? If there's another parent, is he/she getting his/her needs met?

That's what matters, IMO. There's nothing intrinsically wrong or callous about being a person who doesn't get all of your needs met through parenting, and there's nothing wrong or lazy about being someone who does. If working (or school, or volunteering, or taking classes, or whatever) is what helps you feel good about who you are, do it. If not, and your famiy can do without your income, don't.

I think it's important for moms to be true to themselves.

Dar


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

: Can we please watch our language?

Also, I am glad none of my quotes offended. I think we all need to agree that we want the best for our children. We also want to Mother our children the best way possible for them and us.


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## prmom (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
Part of that respect is not personalizing someone else's expressions of aggravation at her own situatuion. If what the OP said made you hot under the collar, maybe, just maybe that's your problem and not hers. Give her the respect of understanding that she is having a normal exasperated reaction to irritating circumstances. Give me the respect of slowing down for five minutes and thinking "ok, paycheck mamas bothers me, but maybe I'm not seeing something here." For heaven's sake, "paycheck mamas" is from FLYLADY. How can you get less elitist than Flylady?


I think it is quite clear that everyone is personalizing this. Mothering is a personal thing and I think everyone appears to be "hot under the collar" in this thread. I do/did respect that in the op Faith was have a "normal exaxperated reaction to irritating circumstances". If you were to read my other posts in this thread you might find that I was trying to validate both sides.

Also, I have no clue who Flylady is. Labels in general can be taken offensively. No matter who you are. If you knew me, you would likely read my posts differently too







. That's just part of what can happen on a board where we just read words and aren't able to see the other 90% of body language. Don't get me wrong I







MDC. I also like hearing others perspectives EVEN when I don't agree.

Thanks for reminding me that I might not understand where someone is coming from when they make statements such as paycheck mama b/c I don't truly know most of you. I come in


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Sorry, Amy!







: I will try to tone down the


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Here's another thought from somebody who's been around a few of these threads and given it a lot of thought over the years.

Does anyone remember the song made into the Enjoli perfume commercials? "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never let you forget you're a man! 'Cause I'm a woman...." Anybody remember "Family Ties"?

The whole society has bought into the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. I used to look down on women who chose to stay home and not "do anything" other than mother. Combined with the above, personal experience with some really lazy people (think stereotypical soap opera watching housewives), for years and years I believed it was a lazy, intellectual cop-out. Then I had friends who had babies and watched them struggle on all fronts. Then I had mine and the full impact of my idiocy hit me.

Everyone, everyone is constantly being barraged to "do more." It's not just SAHMs. It's everybody, people. I'm nearly 40 and I'm finally making time to do some scrapbooking for no other reason than because I want to. I've finally started saying 'no' to requests to volunteer, to the feeling that I need to "do something" for my professional society "because if I don't nobody else will," etc. I'm making time to read the books I want to read, not because they're going to enrich me or make me more informed but because I simply enjoy them.

I see the original intent of the OP, but I also see a tendency to judge others by her own yardstick, and really, isn't that most of the problem, as has been eloquently said above? Every single person is different, every single family is different. I agree with the spirit of the OP's post, but I disagree that it (the pressure) is directed at only SAHMs. I feel everybody feels the same type of pressure: do more, accomplish more, make more. I would wager that nearly every single mama here has felt this pressure, no matter her work/home situation.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tracymom*

Everyone, everyone is constantly being barraged to "do more." It's not just SAHMs. It's everybody, people. I'm nearly 40 and I'm finally making time to do some scrapbooking for no other reason than because I want to. I've finally started saying 'no' to requests to volunteer, to the feeling that I need to "do something" for my professional society "because if I don't nobody else will," etc. I'm making time to read the books I want to read, not because they're going to enrich me or make me more informed but because I simply enjoy them.


Good point.

And I am doing the same things. Reading trashy novels, just for fun. I have made several scrapbooks, and I have joined a gym. And i have finally cut down some of my volunteer hours at my sons school....i still do crossing guard, but i only do the lunchroom/playground 3 days a week. Let someone else do it. After almost 18 yrs, i deserve it. Oh, and i no longer take "call" at the hospital i work for. Saying "no" sounds good and feels even better.

I have also put going for my Masters on hold. If i have to write one more paper in APA format, i will jump from my roof.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, I am doing something radical.
I am giving up the label WOHM.

I am a mother. Period.
My mothering is not DEFINED by the fact that I also work for a paycheck.
Yes, I have to struggle with balancing work/family responsibilities.
But that does not define how I parent.

I can just hear the screaming I am going to get.. but I think this whole SAHM/WOHM dichotomy is false.. and does nothing but divide. The emphasis on it ensures that MOTHERwork.. women's work.. will never get the respect it deserves.

Yes, I know there are many of you who find labels useful. AP, Mainstream, WOHM, SAHM whatever. Useful to turn someone else into the "other"... to make sure everyone knows you are not one of THEM.

Some of you say they are empowering somehow.. that they help you find common ground with others like you. Well I am going to have to respectfully disagree.

I will not wear my label, I am taking it off.
I will not separate myself from other women that way. I will not allow myself to be divided and conquered.

I am a mother. period. I am a mother when I am at work, I am a mother when I am at home.. I am a mother when my child is with me.. and I am still a mother when he is not.

I am doing the best I can for MY family. I assume the same of you.
I honor your choices.
I undertand that many of you here do NOT honor mine... but that is actually YOUR problem, not mine. When you choose to dishonor other mothers... you ensure that your choices will also be dishonored. You perpetuate the Mommy Wars.. you create division.. you contribute to your own isolation and devaluation. Maybe we should all take responsibility for that.. instead of pointing the finger at others. Maybe we should all look INWARD for validation. Maybe when we feel frustrated at having our motherwork devalued.. we shouldn't turn right around and say things that make others feel the same way.

The truth is, as long as we are so NEEDFUL of validation from the outside, from our screwed up society.. we will be in trouble. We have to start by validating ourselves and each other.. simply as mothers. Mothers who are doing the best for their families.

Anyway.. I know there are those of you who WILL continue to think of me as a WOHM, because you need to differentiate yourself from me in order to feel validated.
Your loss.

But I will do my best to support you anyway.


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## giarose (Aug 9, 2004)

Bravo, asherah!!!





















I'm pretty new to MDC but have been very disappointed by all the animosity I've encountered that is centered around these labels and how they are used/abused. we're all in this together, sisters! we can't expect to be respected when we don't even respect others. just take a momend and ask yourself, Why do we care so much about what other people think? We all need a good dose of confidence and a good sense of humor and a great big pat on the back. we don't hear this very often from others, if at all, but YOU ARE DOING A WONDERFUL JOB! You are raising a child! let's not read into other people's messages too much and make false assumptions and accusations about each others lifestyles. now gather round for a big


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Feeling the mama love







I too loved your post asherah.


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## prmom (Jun 14, 2004)

Thanks asherah! That's what I was trying to say...but you said it so elequantly (sp?). I am the first to admit I do not have a way with written words. Now this is the kind of spirit I like.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Is Momma getting her needs met? Are the kids getting their needs met? If there's another parent, is he/she getting his/her needs met?

That's what matters, IMO. There's nothing intrinsically wrong or callous about being a person who doesn't get all of your needs met through parenting, and there's nothing wrong or lazy about being someone who does. If working (or school, or volunteering, or taking classes, or whatever) is what helps you feel good about who you are, do it. If not, and your famiy can do without your income, don't.

I think it's important for moms to be true to themselves.

Dar

























Yeah, what she said.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

I just have a feeling this isn't going to come out right, but I will try...

I would like to thank everyone who took what I said in my OP at face value and didn't get all upset.

I admit I am confused. I have learned a *lot* here at MDC about tolerance and respect... maybe I have more to learn...

Seriously, why is it okay when a lot of us here get upset to see a friend not even try BFing, just because she didn't feel like it... But not okay for us to feel upset when a SAHM 'quits' and gets another job? I honestly don't understand that. We all agree BFing is best if at all possible, so why not SAH, if that is at all possible? Honestly, I don't understand that. Surely no one is out there argueing for formula and daycares..? We say "whatever works best for your family" or "be true to yourself" but we don't really mean it, or we would believe formula, CIO, circumcision, spanking, yelling, endless hours in a play pen, etc, would be wonderful as the family was doing the best for them and being true...
Do you see what I am saying, even if you don't agree?

Also, there is nothing wrong with my feelings from my OP. I don't go into 'working mothers' and tell them they are wrong... so I think it's rather innapropriate for non-SAHMs to come here to my SAHM thread IF they can't be supportive. I'm sure a WOHM who was the only WOHM in her area wouldn't like for me to crash her thread and be all negative.

Anyway, I just don't agree that someone can mother/raise their child if they are not with their child. It just doesn't happen like that. You simply can't care for a person you are not with. I don't think for a second that if I handed my baby off right now to someone else and went out, that I would be caring for him/mothering him/raising him/whatever when I was gone. I'm not there to comfort him, to feed him, to change him, to hold him, to know his cues like only a mommy can. That is just a fact. I don't see how that point can even be argued, but it seems like some of you are trying. Sure, I am still his mother when I am gone, but I am not *mothering* him when I am gone. I see a huge difference.

In all sencerity, none of this is meant to offend. I am just trying to explain my feelings and thoughts. I am not anti-WOHMs. My awesome MW is one, my aunt (who I love more than my own mom) worked by choice from six weeks old with both her DC, etc. But I am still allowed to have my opinion that SAH is best for DC, just like AP and BF... I wasn't attacking anyone's opinion- just society's attitude in general- about we SAHMs needing to be "more," as if there is anything that could be "more" than raising my wonderful DC.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
"Also, there is nothing wrong with my feelings from my OP. I don't go into 'working mothers' and tell them they are wrong... so I think it's rather innapropriate for non-SAHMs to come here to my SAHM thread IF they can't be supportive. I'm sure a WOHM who was the only WOHM in her area wouldn't like for me to crash her thread and be all negative."

"Anyway, I just don't agree that someone can mother/raise their child if they are not with their child. It just doesn't happen like that. You simply can't care for a person you are not with. I don't think for a second that if I handed my baby off right now to someone else and went out, that I would be caring for him/mothering him/raising him/whatever when I was gone. I'm not there to comfort him, to feed him, to change him, to hold him, to know his cues like only a mommy can. That is just a fact. I don't see how that point can even be argued, but it seems like some of you are trying. Sure, I am still his mother when I am gone, but I am not *mothering* him when I am gone. I see a huge difference." .


I am a member of this community and I will post where I see fit.
I will not be thrust out of a discussion about MOTHERING just because someone sees fit to label me a WOHM.. and set me up as "the other."
This is not a private thread.. therefore I am not "crashing" it.

What you have said is just pure ugliness. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion.. and I am entitled to tell you it is ugly, toxic and unkind. The language is couched in such judgmental absolutes:
"You simply can't care for a person you are not with."
Well, actually, I do think I am caring for my child by providing him with shelter, food and clothing, as well as love. I could not give him those things without leaving and going to work.

How sad that you are not able to simply celebrate your own choice... but must "mourn" and judge the choices of others instead.
I feel sorry for you, really. I am surprised I am not angry, but I really am not.
I feel sorry for you. Here you are, so frustrated by the fact that your own choice is devalued.. but all you can do is focus on the choices of others. You are making your world.. and your heart.. a very small place indeed.
Sad, sad sad.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
We all agree BFing is best if at all possible, so why not SAH, if that is at all possible? Honestly, I don't understand that. Surely no one is out there argueing for formula and daycares..?

Breastfeeding and stay at home mothering are not equivalent issues at all. Breastfeeding is biologically the healthiest way for most babies to eat, and has been since humans have existed. Mothers being with their children all of the time is, in contrast, a relatively new phenomenon. Many, many children have spent a great deal of time in the care of someone besides mom, often but not always another relative. The idea of mother as a fulltime caregiver is not the way it's generally been. In tribal societies, any lactating mother might care for a nursing child, and a slightly older child would generally be in the care of an older sibling or elderly relative while the mother worked, often either gathering food or preparing it, sometimes quite a distance away.

We don't live that way anymore, clearly. Still, I don't agree with the idea that to raise your child, you must spend all of your time with him. The mother in the original post was planning a very, very part-time job, and even that was unacceptable to you?

I believe that children can be truly happy and thrive even if they spend time in the care of someone besides their mother. If you believed this, what would that mean to you, and to the choices you've made? Are you happy with the life you've chosen, or are you not happy staying at home fulltime and so trying to justify that unhappiness to yourself by believing that any other choice would harm your child?

Dar


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
I just have a feeling this isn't going to come out right, but I will try...

I would like to thank everyone who took what I said in my OP at face value and didn't get all upset.

I admit I am confused. I have learned a *lot* here at MDC about tolerance and respect... maybe I have more to learn...

Seriously, why is it okay when a lot of us here get upset to see a friend not even try BFing, just because she didn't feel like it... But not okay for us to feel upset when a SAHM 'quits' and gets another job? I honestly don't understand that. We all agree BFing is best if at all possible, so why not SAH, if that is at all possible? Honestly, I don't understand that. Surely no one is out there argueing for formula and daycares..? We say "whatever works best for your family" or "be true to yourself" but we don't really mean it, or we would believe formula, CIO, circumcision, spanking, yelling, endless hours in a play pen, etc, would be wonderful as the family was doing the best for them and being true...
Do you see what I am saying, even if you don't agree?

Also, there is nothing wrong with my feelings from my OP. I don't go into 'working mothers' and tell them they are wrong... so I think it's rather innapropriate for non-SAHMs to come here to my SAHM thread IF they can't be supportive. I'm sure a WOHM who was the only WOHM in her area wouldn't like for me to crash her thread and be all negative.

Anyway, I just don't agree that someone can mother/raise their child if they are not with their child. It just doesn't happen like that. You simply can't care for a person you are not with. I don't think for a second that if I handed my baby off right now to someone else and went out, that I would be caring for him/mothering him/raising him/whatever when I was gone. I'm not there to comfort him, to feed him, to change him, to hold him, to know his cues like only a mommy can. That is just a fact. I don't see how that point can even be argued, but it seems like some of you are trying. Sure, I am still his mother when I am gone, but I am not *mothering* him when I am gone. I see a huge difference.

In all sencerity, none of this is meant to offend. I am just trying to explain my feelings and thoughts. I am not anti-WOHMs. My awesome MW is one, my aunt (who I love more than my own mom) worked by choice from six weeks old with both her DC, etc. But I am still allowed to have my opinion that SAH is best for DC, just like AP and BF... I wasn't attacking anyone's opinion- just society's attitude in general- about we SAHMs needing to be "more," as if there is anything that could be "more" than raising my wonderful DC.


nak-

i have not read all the threads. but i understand what you are trying to say here. i think alot of people agree with the concept of staying at home, or we would not have so many sahms.

studies were done that show the number of women leaving the worforce to stay at home with a child is on the rise. most of the mothers i know have left the worforce to stay with their baby. times are changing.

i personallly could care less if a mom works. i am more concerned with other things like why are over 50% of boys still being circ?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

"Mothering will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact."- Laura
I do not respect all mothers. Or fathers. Uncles, aunts, grandparents, sisters, brothers. Simply because someone has a child/got pregnant/adopted doesn't earn my respect. I don't respect all animals because they have offspring, either. Procreation doesn't make someone respect worthy.

There are many mothers who harm children and I do not respect those mothers. The mothers who follow Ezzo, spank, wash with soap, hot sauce, etc., no I do not respect those mothers. There is no nobility in whitewashing abuse so that all mothers are respected upon birthing/adopting. Children aren't respected in that equation either.

I'm not aiming to be respected. That is a waste of time and typically, lip service with no power (read: money) behind it. I am working (with money and time) toward a better system (in the US) for mothers (as Mothering Mag has talked about here and elsewhere).

Frankly, this bit about 'it's none of your business' gets old. A lot of griping about no 'village' to support moms and take the kids off her hands but not wanting any of the loss of privacy and intrusion that is a natural part of the village. If the village doesn't like your style of parenting or thinks that you aren't mothering in the right way, then you are going to hear about it. Don't want the up-for-comment life? Then don't romanticize the village.

I'm thrilled that it is more common to go it alone in terms of parenting. I never would want the village style, much too limiting and opressive for me. I'm glad to have solitude, privacy and yes, lots of time with my kids and no expectation to nurse or care for other kids in the neighborhood or extended family. I want to parent differently than extended family and the natural village in my world. Thank ghord I can without too much suffering. Living in Zimbabwe and having my one year old go to another mama to live if I were pregnant with another child - no thanks. But that's how it's done. Or in parts of Africa where hitting children is expected, normal, natural. No thanks. I'd much rather leave the community, parent alone. When moms or anyone else doesn't respect me, it makes no difference in my mothering or life vision. I see 'respect' for moms - have a Happy Mother's Day, get a special food rub, a box of chocolates, flowers for 'all her hard work' and doing The Most Important Job in the World. Feh.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Asherah







You managed to say everything I wanted to say (but couldn't in my pain-med addled, angry mind!) so perfectly. I could not agree with you more. I think MDC has become one of the last places I go where I am actually expected to use my "appropriate mama" label. I belong to a local Mothers and More chapter and we are actually able to have discussions on respecting the work of all mamas without it mattering in the slightest who in the group is a sahm, wohm, wahm, blah, blah, blah. It is a breath of fresh air to be in a place where it could not matter less.










Faith, I cannot even be angry at you anymore. You have just hit a new level of ugliness, patheticness, and bigotry in what you said and I now officially feel sorry for you. I sincerely hope that your world is able to continue on the way that you want it to so that you do not one day face the judgement that you so happily heap on others.

Such a waste.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Breastfeeding and stay at home mothering are not equivalent issues at all.

Dar

I totally agree. Good point.

And Asherah, you _rock._


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*

I am a mother. Period....

I think this whole SAHM/WOHM dichotomy is false.. and does nothing but divide. The emphasis on it ensures that MOTHERwork.. women's work.. will never get the respect it deserves.


















Maybe we could focus on how important parenting is, period. Regardless of what combination of parenting and working a family relies on. I think that only then will parenting have a chance of getting the respect it deserves for being the challenging and critically important work that it is.

It really is not about whether a mother works for a paycheck or not. Women have always worked and mothered at the same time. Women did, and probably still do in many places, make their families clothes, make the cloth for clothes, make the yarn, can the food, work the fields, feed the animals, and sell the food and other goods they produce at market. They and their children worked, and many likely still do around the world, as servants for those wealthier than they. Many worked as slaves, and many still do. Many were wet nurses who left their own kids in someone else's care to nurse the babes of wealthy women. It's not new. What is new is the modern economy where so many women go off to offices or factories or stores to work, where often women don't have extended family and friends to help with child care, and where mothers are criticized whether they stay home full time or work outside the home.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Ashera, settle down.







I am not anything like you said. I am not even upset. Why would I be?

If anything, I feel sorry for people in this thread who don't even realize what they are missing by not being there for their DC, and who can only respond by getting incredibly mean when others don't agree with them.

Just breathe... It's okay... You don't have to be so angry that not everyone is like you. Sure I had a small vent in the OP, but some of you are jumping up and down! Some of you seem pretty mad for such 'open-minded' people...

I will leave you to your rants...


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Faith, you can't change what you don't acknowledge. You won't acknowledge how condescending you are in your posts. It is like everyword you type, you add a swift backhand to it. You are extriemly closed minded and hurtful. It is actually mothers like you who are dividing our sisterhood with your attitude.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm closing this thread for administrative review.


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