# From car seat to booster seat...when?



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok. So. I'm HATING the fact that I have to have a nephew who is 2 weeks older than my kid, and that my sister is considered to be "more experienced" than I am at child raising and that what she does with her kid is always considered standard as to what I'll be doing next with my own kid.

She turned her kiddo's carseat around to front facing when he was somewhere about 9 months old. I wasn't as completely educated as to the safety of rear facing at the time, but I did know that I wasn't turning my kid around till he was at least a year.

Of course, I have to hear it from my parents. They purchased him a carseat to use and got all offended because I didn't use it right away.

Later I found out that the carseat they gave him was a used one. I had a friend (from here







) encourage me to purchase a new carseat instead of using that one because I was unsure of any recalls on it, or whether it had been in an accident before, so I did.

So right now, my kid is in a carseat that will act as a booster seat when he gets older....it has the 5 point harness thingy and later on, when he gets bigger, you can just use the seatbelt across it like a booster seat, and hopefully, (I dunno yet) I won't have to purchase another carseat for a while.)

Now, enter nephew, almost 3 (not 3 until june, neither kid is not going to be 3 until june) with a booster seat. My kid, him, and my parents and neice all went out of town yesterday.

My dad hates carseats, and thinks of all of them as "straight jackets" and was saying how he's going to get a booster seat for my kid too, because he thinks it's more open and allows for more freedom of movement and stuff.

I piped up that G is entirely too small for a booster seat for right now, and that really Nephew is too, and that the seat I have for him will act as a booster seat later on anyway, and he's fine in the seat that he's in. So they shut up about it. (Thank God.)

But I honestly don't know. My nephew is a bit heavier than my kid, my kid is very lean. What is the youngest age or the lowest bodyweight for a booster seat? It just seems so wrong and early to me.

My sister is always kinda sorta pushing him to do stuff really early, in my opinion. I say, let the kids stay kids for as long as they will, they'll grow up fast enough without the pushing....

Educate me on carseats, please.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

In absolutely no way shape or form is that child old enough for a booster.

Four years AND 40 pounds is the absolutely, skimpiest, barest of the bare, walking the tight rope, dangling at the edge of the cliff, line for belt positioning booster use.

I prefer to see kids at LEAST 5 years and a minimum of 40 pounds before parents start to talk about boosters.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Great.







Another thing I have to worry about. I hope they don't end up getting in an accident with A in a booster seat. I'm constantly worrying about my nephew over one thing or another. My sister is bull-headed and stubborn, and I stopped discussing her parenting choices with her a long time ago. I don't have the energy for argueing with her, and it never changes her mind anyway. Makes me sad.









(Is it wrong for me to hope she ends up getting a ticket? Do they give tickets for kids not being in the right kind of seat? At least she'd have to use the type of carseat that's safest for A, could even save his life... She'd probably fight that tooth and nail, though.)


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## s_kristina (Aug 9, 2004)

If she has internet access have her read this http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages...About_Kyle.htm and watch the videos at the bottom of the page.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok, I have a question, and I ask this because I KNOW this is what my sister would hop on if I were to send this video to her.

Was the little boy thrown from the vehicle because his seat wasn't tethered and the seat buckle failed?

My sister will think that the booster seat would be ok as long as it's tethered to the car....which _I_ know it's more to it than that, but that's what she'll lock onto. Is there something that says different? Did I miss something?

Thinking on it, now I realize that even if the child's seat WAS tethered, if he was in a booster seat, they only use the car seatbelts around the child, so he would still get thrown from his seat....

How can one be sure that the seatbelts in the cars won't fail on impact?


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## keriberry (May 27, 2007)

While it's possible that the seatbelt failed (Very rare), it's MORE possible that he unbuckled himself as he was too young to have the self-discipline to be in control of his own safety.

If you're going the video route, Isabelle's Story is a better deterrent for early booster use. She was 3y 9m old (MUCH older than your sister's child!) seated next to her 7yo sister. Both in booster seats. They were in a minor accident. She died. Her older sister walked away because she was old enough to use a booster.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I never tell people to watch the KDM video, because although it's sad as all get out, people always ask the same question you did. I always just say how much safer harnessed seats are and how younger children can experience 'seatbelt syndrome' or submarining.

BTW, my DD will be 3 July first and she's not only still harnessed, she's still RF.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
BTW, my DD will be 3 July first and she's not only still harnessed, she's still RF.









:

except DD's birthday is August 30. DS is 5y4m and still in a 5 point harness in his Britax Marathon. I just feel a LOT better keeping him harnessed as long as possible.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
My dad hates carseats, and thinks of all of them as "straight jackets" and was saying how he's going to get a booster seat for my kid too, because he thinks it's more open and allows for more freedom of movement and stuff.


Well, he's right on the account that booster seats are more open and allow for more freedom of movement. . .all of which are *very bad things*.

In order for a restraint to work effectively, the passenger must be in the correct position so that the harness system makes contact with the intended body parts. When using the vehicle's seatbelt (with or without a booster), the passenger must remain upright, not lean from side to side or forward, and keep the shoulder belt across their torso. If the passenger is not in this correct position when a collision occurs, you can expect a lot of trauma.

Unless your not-quite-3 year old nephew is extremely exceptional (which I highly doubt), he cannot possibly sit still and in the proper position for the duration of the ride. Children that young simply lack the maturity and understanding to do so. I bet within 10 seconds he'll be climbing around, standing up, or at least putting the shoulder belt behind him. I know my 3 year old DD would never sit still in a booster. . she's still in that "ping pong" age where she's constantly moving every second of the day and cannot sit still longer than 30 seconds at a time.

Because of this, the so-called "freedom of movement" your dad talks about is _not_ what you want! You _want_ the child to be restrained tightly so that that however they happen to move, then cannot get themselves out of the correct position. A 5-pt harness does just that. . my DD can move her arms and legs and head all she wants, but she _cannot_ move her torso to an incorrect position. In a collision, she will be in the correct position for the restraint to perform effectively.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

On that note, I do have to admit my nephew _is_ kind of mature for his age. We took a trip that was about an hour and he didn't move at all, or move the belt behind him, or move his torso at all, really. I sat between the two carseats and read lots of stories. He sat there eating, and asked for me to hand him his juice, and didn't try to move to get what he wanted at all. I'm not too concerned with him moving out of position, because he seems to be really good on that. (Now MY child, on the other hand, is an entirely different story!














:







: )

What I'm more concerned about is being that he's smaller (I don't know if he's 40lbs or not, but I doubt it) how would the belt cut him if there was to be a collision, you know? How would a smaller/shorter kid's body react as opposed to a larger kid's body? I think that would be about the onliest point of concern I could raise my sister. She'd still probablly poo-poo the whole thing away, though. (I"m wondering if I should instead talk to my BIL.)

The only time when it was REALLY a problem was on the way back, and he fell asleep. It's a high back booster, his head was all over the place and he looked uncomfortable. I mean, his head was waaaaaaaaay forward or wayyyyyyyyyyy too the side, and bobbling all over with every turn we made, and I eventually just had to position myself so that he could rest his head on my shoulder.

THIS is probably the main reason (besides where the belt falls on his body in case of a collision) I'd be worried about him. Toddler fall asleep when riding often times. It's just a fact. And his booster seat simply doesn't allow for this at all. (My kid's seat can be reclined so that he can still be properly in place even if he falls asleep, you know?) I can see an older child being better able to prop themselves into an acceptable position should they fall asleep while riding, but he's not there yet, at least not when he's sleeping. God forbid and accident happen while he was sleeping. <shudder>

I guess I'm concerned, my sister lost a child when he was 13 months old to a brain tumor. I was 12 years old at the time. He was like my little brother. Even _I_ hold my kid tighter and make extra sure of "things" that are highly risky because in the back of the back of my mind, I know I don't want to lose my kid the way I lost my nephew. I just kinda irks me that my sister isn't the same way, and it was _her_ child. I know that's kinda stupid to think that way because everyone reacts after a death differently, but it still kind of plays on me, and she just seems so careless in certain things.

So while I'm learning a WHOLE LOT in my discussion with you guys about carseats, I haven't really seen anything particularly that will impress my sister (accept for maybe the story about the little girl, I may send that one to my BIL). To her, the idea of being "corrected" by her baby sister is way more infuriating than the message is touching, you know? I just know her. I'm going to go and search for a ton of evidence from a bunch of different very "head" sources and present them to my BIL, and I"m extremely nervous about doing that. I don't know how he'll react. And I DO know that she'd be infuriated about me going to him instead of her, but this is an I.M.P.O.R.T.A.N.T. message that _must not_ fall on deaf ears, and I have a far better chance of being heard I feel, if I talk to him.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

The maturity is a moot point at his age and size. Maturity is a question that comes into play AFTER four years and forty pounds.

He is too small and too young to have only three points of restraint. His body is too fragile, and NEEDS to have that force divided in five places.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
The maturity is a moot point at his age and size. Maturity is a question that comes into play AFTER four years and forty pounds.

He is too small and too young to have only three points of restraint. His body is too fragile, and NEEDS to have that force divided in five places.

Yes, I understand this, I was meaning to state that the maturity point is an argument that won't stand with my sister. (Telling ME about it is preaching to the choir. I just know my sister and know what arguments will stand with her and which ones just won't. Chalk it up to a life time of dealing with her.)

I need to show her a specific reason, very detailed, as to _why_ he needs it or else she won't listen. Ok, so far I've got how the lap belt will cause internal injuries. While it's tragic that the little girl died in a very minor accident from being in a booster seat, unless I show her evidence that this repeatedly happens to kids in booster seats too young, she'll poo-poo me away. She'll say "well, that's just one accident".

Telling me "well, he NEEDS it, his body is too fragile, he's too immature" etc, I get, but won't convince _her_, you know? So far, I've got a little boy who died who definitely could have been prevented if he had been in a 5 point restraint car seat tethered to the car. She'll watch the video and say, "well, the seat buckle failed". She'll watch the other one with the tragedy of the low impact collision and the little girl. She'll say, "Oh, that's just one time thing". Telling her that child her son's age is too immature is not going to sit correctly so that the adult belts will fit around him correctly implies that as long as he sits properly with the belt around him properly, he'll be ok, which he does (except when he's sleeping.)

I need something that shows repeated internal injuries from too small kids sitting properly in booster seats to compare with the mechanisms of the 5 point harness sets, you know? I"m not asking you guys for this info, per se, I'm just saying I think that's what _may_ convince her. (It also may not.) While one (in this case, two) lives are ample enough evidence to convince "me" that my kid is staying in his 5 point seat until his something like 15 years of age, my sister is far more obsinate than I am, unfortunately for her child.









I'm doing more research on this to see what I can find...


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Check the laws in your state, too (don't know if a pp mentioned this). In WI the law is 4 yrs AND 40 lbs for a 5-pt harness. (I'm actually breaking the law right now--my 5 yo is 37 lbs, but she got too tall for her Britax Marathon.)







:

So yes, she could conceivably be pulled over & ticketed if the law in your state is prescriptive on this.


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## longislandmom (Sep 16, 2004)

Check the booster seat instructions. I think even the convertible car seats cannot be used with LATCH when the child is over 40lbs. This may throw the LATCH argument out the window. I guess it also depends on how much he weighs. My dd will not be 4yrs until August. She is too tall for her roundabout. She is only 34lbs, but there is a 40" height limit right on the sticker on the side. She is also above the top opening for the strap. Instead of getting another carseat I bought a booster that has a 5pt harness I can use until 65lbs. I felt this was the best decision since she will reach the 40lb limit on most 5pt harnesses pretty soon. You can suggest a Safety First Apex 65 or Radian booster to her. This will keep him in a 5pt harness but allow haer to have something called a "booster".


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *longislandmom* 
Check the booster seat instructions. I think even the convertible car seats cannot be used with LATCH when the child is over 40lbs. This may throw the LATCH argument out the window. I guess it also depends on how much he weighs. My dd will not be 4yrs until August. She is too tall for her roundabout. She is only 34lbs, but there is a 40" height limit right on the sticker on the side. She is also above the top opening for the strap. Instead of getting another carseat I bought a booster that has a 5pt harness I can use until 65lbs. I felt this was the best decision since she will reach the 40lb limit on most 5pt harnesses pretty soon. You can suggest a Safety First Apex 65 or Radian booster to her. This will keep him in a 5pt harness but allow haer to have something called a "booster".

Please excuse me for being such a dunce, I'm having a very bad pregnant day today....But what's "latch"? Do you mean the adult safety belt going across the child instead of through the seat? So sorry, I'm drawing a blank...














:

ETA:
Nevermind, i looked up LATCH, I understand now...
Thanks for those suggestions!


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=889807

That might help. If I were in your shoes, I would get another seat for your nephew or refuse to drive him. If anything happens to him in your care, it's YOUR responsibility, even if his parents made a bad carseat choice. I don't even give parents an option in my car usually, their kids ride in what I have that's safest for them. My son will be 5 in 3 wks and still in a 5pt harness and he's over 40#.


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## meldogsun (Jun 21, 2004)

regarding the booster seat age/weight minimum. I've been meaning to ask for a while and would love to get the perspective from all you who seem up on your reading and research. And I'm asking it out of true curiosity, not sarcasm or anything else. So please don't take it negatively.

What I've appreciated about this group of mothers is the alternative nature through which we question the mainstream "rules and regs."

So how is the carseat issue different from the scare tactics used to get people to vaccinate their kids, or buy all this safety equipment to baby-proof their house, or invest in cord blood, etc. Are the car fatalities about the same risk as one of our non-vax kids getting a disease? Most folks in our generation grew up rolling around in the backseats of our station wagons with our unbuckled moms nursing our baby siblings in the front seat.

Honestly, I'm just curious about whether this is something we've been scared into thinking is beyond necessary and will live in guilt or fear if we don't go above and beyond following all of the rules.

Thanks for your feedback,
melanie


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meldogsun* 
regarding the booster seat age/weight minimum. I've been meaning to ask for a while and would love to get the perspective from all you who seem up on your reading and research. And I'm asking it out of true curiosity, not sarcasm or anything else. So please don't take it negatively.

What I've appreciated about this group of mothers is the alternative nature through which we question the mainstream "rules and regs."

So how is the carseat issue different from the scare tactics used to get people to vaccinate their kids, or buy all this safety equipment to baby-proof their house, or invest in cord blood, etc. Are the car fatalities about the same risk as one of our non-vax kids getting a disease? Most folks in our generation grew up rolling around in the backseats of our station wagons with our unbuckled moms nursing our baby siblings in the front seat.

Honestly, I'm just curious about whether this is something we've been scared into thinking is beyond necessary and will live in guilt or fear if we don't go above and beyond following all of the rules.

Thanks for your feedback,
melanie

Car accidents happen. They are on the RISE and they are getting worse. As there are more cars driving at faster speeds it becomes more and more dangerous.

People didn't used to wear seat belts either- do you?

-Angela


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Car accidents are the number one cause of death and serious injury for children 1-14. Whether you vax or not, the chances of getting seriously ill from a vax-preventable disease (or having a vax reaction!) is much lower than the chances that you will be in a car accident.

It's true that now (vs. 30 years ago), there are medical interventions that can save many of the kids who would have died in car accidents previously, so the fatality rate doesn't look _that_ bad...however, if I could prevent my child from becoming a paraplegic, I would.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Car accidents are the NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH for children. It's not fear mongering. It's physics and common sense.


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## amis2girls (Mar 2, 2005)

Has she seen the booster safety test: http://www.usa.safekids.org/skbu/cps...-belt-test.pdf


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Car accidents are the NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH for children. It's not fear mongering. It's physics and common sense.

To add to this, it's not just children, it's the #1 killer till age 34 in all races, education levels, no matter where you live etc. Would you like crash tests? I have all kinds? FFing harness? RFing? Booster w/ no back vs backed? A child who needs a booster, but doesn't have one?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Not to mention that having your kiddo in a proper restraint does not hurt them or put toxins in their body like vaxes do. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks (and really, I see no risk in putting your kid in a proper restraint versus leaving them unrestrained).


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