# Store Employee Enforcing Her Rules on My Child?!



## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

This was offensive to me.

I'm wondering what other mamas think about this.

Just a little background to preface with...

My son is a second child, and rather sensitive and shy by nature. He watches no TV ever and is very sheltered from mainstream living. He just started attending our local Waldorf kindergarten this past fall, only two mornings every week. Before that, he had literally never been anywhere in this world without one of his immediate family members with him. He's been happy at school, in fact, wanting to go more than two days. He's becoming more social, but I prefer to allow that aspect of him to blossom slowly, following some of the Anthroposophic philosophies. As far as teaching manners goes in our home, I do not force 'please' and 'thank you,' etc. I have taught by example, with great success, to my older child, and introduce discussions about manners only when my children are a little older, like around 6 or 7 (again, following Anthroposophic guidance).

Here's what happened:

I was in one of my local chain health food stores, Trader Joe's, with my four y/o son. When it was time to check out, he asked for a balloon, which is customary for them to hand out to children at this store.
He asked the lady, "Can I have a green balloon?"
The lady (around 26-27, I'm guessing...) then asked him, "What's the magic word?"
My son then got quiet and felt awkward. He tends to be rather shy and quiet in public. 'The magic word' is foreign to him -- we do not use that phrase in our family.
I said to him, "The lady would like you to say 'please,' can you say please?"
He started to look uncomfortable, and stared at me.
The lady went on to repeat herself several more times about 'the magic word' as she was ringing up my groceries.
Then, at the end, she said to him, "I won't give you a balloon unless you say 'please.'
At this point, it was time to go, so I said to her, "He's a little shy, I'll say *please* for him since it's time to go, and he really wants a balloon. And, just to let you know, in our family we don't force manners; we teach them by example. Thank you very much for the balloon."
She cut the balloon for him (they were tied to the checkout stand) and had a blatant pissy attitude about it.








:

My take on this is that
A) her initial request for a 'please' was ok, it was when she started insisting on it that I felt my boundaries crossed as a mother, and
B) when she became somewhat hostile at the end of the whole thing, I felt really offended

I know there are many different views on the manners issue out there. I'm just wondering how far a stranger should be allowed to take something with my child before I am justified in responding assertively.

What do *you* think?


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## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

Weird? That wasn't really her place to "make" your child say something. I would have been irritated as well, even though I do ask my son to say please and thank you. She oversteped her boundaries in my opinion.


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## zo's ma (Mar 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*

My take on this is that
A) her initial request for a 'please' was ok, it was when she started insisting on it that I felt my boundaries crossed as a mother, and
B) when she became somewhat hostile at the end of the whole thing, I felt really offended

I know there are many different views on the manners issue out there. I'm just wondering how far a stranger should be allowed to take something with my child before I am justified in responding assertively.

What do *you* think?

I think your take on it is right on







And...I think you handled it really well!


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## carmen_f (Dec 17, 2004)

I agree with you. She crossed the line. She must have noticed how uncomfortable she was making your son, yet she continued to insist. The attitude at the end adds insult to injury. You did say please on his behalf, so why the pissy face?


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

I think you did the right thing, in telling her that. Your son is only five, and that was really obnoxious of her to act like that. I also don't like "What is the magic word?" and it isn't up to her to say that to your child.

I have a problem in general with store employees saying or doing things to me/my baby.

Also at a TJ's, my baby was in her sling and crying and I was trying to get through the checkout and the cashier wouldn't shut up about how my baby was "not liking the sling/tired/hungry" and I finally just said "please stop guessing what is wrong with her."

I had other problems with employees at Target touching my babe while she was in her sling ON THE FACE, and or trying to tell me what was wrong with her when she was crying. Drove me nuts.

Sometimes you just have to let things go, but maybe call and talk to the manager and tell him about the experience. Esp. if you shop there a lot. All children are different and if your sweet boy is shy he shouldn't be forced by a store employee to "say the magic word".


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## chersolly (Aug 29, 2004)

She should of just given up the balloon. You're there for groceries, not ettiquette lessons.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

Tell DS that next time someone asks for the magic word, he's to say "ABRACADABRA".

Magic word. sheesh.


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## zo's ma (Mar 4, 2003)

I almost forgot aboout this...

We were visiting a family friend and she asked ds if he'd like a cookie, he said yes...she asked what's the magic word...he said..abracadabra!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, I think she was wrong, and I think you handled it really well. It's pretty likely that she was looking at this from the viewpoint of a former child and not from the viewpoint of a current mom. That is, she probably has a good memory of being rewarded for "saying the magic word" and the fact that your ds didn't know what the heck she was talking about bummed her out. I'm just guessing here, but that's why a lot of people do that schtick--they get a big smile like they are going to act out the happy story of a person who really does get rewarded by magic.

It can't feel good to a child though, being asked something like that and not knowing the little trope. It's only a happy little story if everyone is on the same page.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I think your take is right on - and her attitude when she was cutting the balloon for you was probably because when you said 'please' on behalf of your child so she would give you guys, the customer, the balloon, it was patently obvious how ridiculous her insistence had become! You handled it well.


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

I've been dealing with this a little myself. My MIL will ask ds if he wants to do something, or would like something and he'll say yes. Then she'll say, "YEs," and stick out her chin, wishing to pull out the word MAM. I really dislike that word... it irks me. She does the magic word thing and tries to make him say you're welcome. I don't get this whole manners thing. If he says you're welcome, she almost explodes...nothing makes her happier. WHat is up with this stuff!!!! I think it's a Southern thing here and I'm not up for the whole Southern graces thing.


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## Thmom (May 4, 2004)

I hate that phrase "magic word" like it instills some kind of mystical magical reaction!







She shouldn't have said anything but "yes you may" since he asked in a nice way. Please isn't necessary imo. Yes I try to encourage please but I over all try to encourage politeness and saying "can I have a balloon" in a polite tone is all that is neccessary.


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## Bex80 (Feb 8, 2004)

I think it was weird that she was so insistant.

Personally, I would have let her keep her balloon and bought one from somewhere else if my son still wanted one. I'm just bitchy like that, though.


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## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.


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## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.

Another







from me. Very well put, stafl.


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## Teryll (Feb 18, 2005)

I am adament about using "please" and "thank you" in converation with my child. It's important to me for her to not only see manners by example, but hear them as well.

However, the cashier was extremely irritating in her insistance of your son "saying the magic word." It is not her job to be the Manners Police, or make a big deal out of it.

It's not like your son said, "Give me a green balloon, *&^%#!!!!"

I commend you on the way you handled that situation. You are definitely doing a wonderful job in all aspects relative to learning by example because you really should've told that lady to GET BENT!









Oh, excuse me. Get BENT, please. :LOL ( I guess it's best to be proper when telling the likes of her off!







)

There are few things worse than someone trying to force their personal agenda on someone else.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.

Wow, hurt her feelings? I can see where the cashier hurt the little boy's feelings, but where in the story do you see the OP and her son being anything but polite? Sure, he was shy, and his mommy explained that and said please for him (since that seemed to be so important to the cashier).

IMHO, if you get your feelings hurt because a child is shy that's something YOU have to work on. Let the mother worry about her child's education in social graces.


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## chersolly (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:

You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it.
Oh, come on! Is she going to run into the back room and cry because a little, shy boy didn't say please and thank you? If she's that sensitive, she shouldn't be working in a customer service setting.


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## fluffernutter (Dec 8, 2002)

I don't push saying please. I do remind to her ask nicely (instead of demanding something) but that's all I ask.

That woman was totally out of line, and I would have been upset. You handled it nicely though.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

A friend of mine told my dd the "magic word" was "suckit!!"










I think you handled it very well and reacted in a completely acceptable manner. She was upsetting your son and it is only right that you would stand up for him.







I am sure your son will remember that.


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## MamaDaednu (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.

Exactly what I was going to say. Completely.

~Daednu


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

I think you handled it really well, May May.


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## MamaDaednu (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chersolly*
Oh, come on! Is she going to run into the back room and cry because a little, shy boy didn't say please and thank you? If she's that sensitive, she shouldn't be working in a customer service setting.

Okay people, relax. It's a matter of degrees. Maybe "hurt feelings" was the wrong wording but the meaning was correct. You could also say offended, slighted, put off, disrespected or whatever the heck.
The point is it's a socially accepted polite institution to say please and thankyou when asking for something. Even more so when asking for something for free.

~Daednu


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

The point is it's a socially accepted polite institution to say please and thankyou when asking for something. Even more so when asking for something for free.
nak

it should also be socialy acceptable to understand that little kids are still learning and growing, and that we should all cut them some slack in requiring adult manners from them

this is a pet peeve of mine. ds1 is very polite - says please, thank you, you're welcome, i'm sorry, etc. but sometimes he's nervous or shy or overwhelmed or distracted, and doesn't say it. he's still a very nce, polite kid. he was also a late talker, and i would have strangers offer him something and then say "aren't you going to say thank you?" even after i said thank you. he would feel so embarassed that he would often hand it back.

i think some adults really need to get over themselves. You handled the situation much like I would have. The only difference is that I make a conscious effort not to say anything like "he's shy" or "he can't talk yet" or whatever, because I feel like it would make my son feel embarassed. But maybe that's just us.

Quote:

A friend of mine told my dd the "magic word" was "suckit!!"
Okay, that's rude, but it cracked me up!


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## jenoline (Nov 25, 2001)

I think you handled it well, and were right to be offended.

I am pretty big on "manners", but I don't think young children should have them forced on them. And, IMO, politeness is as much conveyed in tone of voice and attitude as it is in any word that a child is taught to parrot. As they get older it can be explained that using good manners, and certain words make people feel good.

And the phrase "magic word" drives me NUTS!!! It makes kids think that saying "Please" will get them anything they want ("but I said PLE-EAASE!"), which it won't. It's very confusing for kids.


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## umefey (Sep 10, 2004)

I can't believe that petty lady who wouldn't give your child a ballon without hearing "please".









oh. and a little







, but i had to say something.
Abimommy, I'm loving the avatar! We are reading those books to our dd as a bedtime story.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
My take on this is that
A) her initial request for a 'please' was ok, it was when she started insisting on it that I felt my boundaries crossed as a mother, and
B) when she became somewhat hostile at the end of the whole thing, I felt really offended.

I agree with you, and I think you handled it very well.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenoline*
I think you handled it well, and were right to be offended.

I am pretty big on "manners", but I don't think young children should have them forced on them. And, IMO, politeness is as much conveyed in tone of voice and attitude as it is in any word that a child is taught to parrot. As they get older it can be explained that using good manners, and certain words make people feel good.

And the phrase "magic word" drives me NUTS!!! It makes kids think that saying "Please" will get them anything they want ("but I said PLE-EAASE!"), which it won't. It's very confusing for kids.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Exactly my take. Please doesn't always get you what you want and children need to understand that. That phrase of "What's the magic word" implies that, if you do say please, you CAN have a nuclear bomb (hello GWB!)







:. Just a wee pet peeve of mine.

I do however, expect my children to say please and thank you, and teach it by modelling as well as prompting. However, if a child was shy and couldn't say please to a stranger due to that shyness, well, I would never push it. Respecting children as people with wants and needs like everyone else is paramount in my book. The cashier's attitude that children are public property is just unacceptable and she should be taught as much.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I agree that manners are important, but so is respecting a child. She was not respecting him (or his mother) by being so obnoxiously pushy.

Nothing irritates me more than having people presume they can parent my child better than I can. And really, was this woman really upset that he didn't give her the courtesy of a please? Or was she upset because she wasn't getting her way in a spitting contest with a five-year-old?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, I think you were okay.

I, personally, wouldn't have confronted her directly but that's just me.

And, I've got to say that had I been the cashier, I probably would have been a little offended ~ BUT, that doesn't mean that I think what you did was wrong.

She can be offended and still choose to learn from this incident or not. That's not on you, yk?

Oh, and yes, having read the whole thread ~ manners are much more than repeating words. Aya rarely says thank you to strangers (because she's shy ~ NOT because she doesn't hear it modeled) but she is quite obviously thrilled to have a gift.

A freaked out giggle and coveting of the gift combined by my "Vielen Dank" seems to be more than enough in these parts.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Wanted to add, I have been known to look people like that in the eye and say, "She has a parent, thank you." But maybe I'm just a rude witch.


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## carolsly (Oct 5, 2004)

I would ask once (if I were in the cashiers place) and after that..I would hand the loot over. I don't put stipulations on gifts. My children don't understand that and I would explain that to the cashier.

My question..do people think our children are puppets? "Say, thank you.", "kiss Grandma.", etc., etc....

What a load of bunk!


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter*
Exactly my take. Please doesn't always get you what you want and children need to understand that. That phrase of "What's the magic word" implies that, if you do say please, you CAN have a nuclear bomb (hello GWB!)







:. Just a wee pet peeve of mine.

I do however, expect my children to say please and thank you, and teach it by modelling as well as prompting. However, if a child was shy and couldn't say please to a stranger due to that shyness, well, I would never push it. Respecting children as people with wants and needs like everyone else is paramount in my book. The cashier's attitude that children are public property is just unacceptable and she should be taught as much.









Well said and I could not agree more.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Once someone asked my ds for the "magic word" and he yelled, "SHAZAAAM!", very loudly. :LOL

I think tone is so important when speaking to people. I ask my ds to do a million things a day, I don't always say please. "Baby, could you get me some water?" is a perfectly polite question. "Get me water" is not. I think I almost always say thank you, but I can't be sure. I'm really nice and polite, I swear! People need to remember that kids are learning and sometimes, "can I have a balloon?" is a HUGE step in talking to people you don't know. I very often say please or thank you for my ds if he gets too flustered or shy to do it. The lady should not have gotten a bug in her butt, mostly because she certainly wouldn't treat a grown up customer the same way.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I think she was even out of line by insisting that he say please in the first place. How is that her job again?







: It is DH and I (and our close friends & family) raising our children. Not someone we've never met before. I don't think she should've said anything to begin with. I'm big on manners because I do think being polite and respectful are important but *I* will initiate the manners lessons, kwim? The fact that she kept pushing it was really weird. I would've been irritated and said something too. I don't think you should've felt the need to explain yourself or your son at all though.

See, my kind of response would've been more along the lines of "I can handle the manners lessons thanks." with a bitchy look on my face.














:

If her feelings were hurt (which I'm really having a hard time seeing how they could be though), she shouldn't take on the job of trying to teach things to people's kids without the kid's or parent's persmission. JMHO


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Or was she upset because she wasn't getting her way in a spitting contest with a five-year-old?

I'm inclined to believe this!
I agree the cashier needs to be reminded what _true_ manners are. That a five year old displayed better manners (asking nicely for a balloon) than a person in her 20's, say's a lot. I would have been *really* bugged by that!


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenoline*
IMO, politeness is as much conveyed in tone of voice and attitude as it is in any word that a child is taught to parrot. As they get older it can be explained that using good manners, and certain words make people feel good.

That's pretty much where I come from. I teach my children, through example to my little one (who by the way is FOUR, not even 4 1/2 yet -- not five) and through discussion with my older child, that attitude/vibes are very, very important. For example, when they hurt someone else, "SORRY!" said in an exasperated way due to adult 'enforcement' does not even remotely imply remorse. On the other hand, if they bring a cup of water/ ice pack/ other to the person they hurt (and even SAY nothing), that conveys even more genuine feeling, IMO. Sometimes, that's all a very _young_ child can do.

I also believe that teaching manners is basically about teaching the ways of showing respect. _I_ felt disrespected by her insistence toward my son in front of me (as if I wasn't there), and then responded, in a very respectful tone of voice, by telling her my beliefs (since she was obviously telling me _her_ beliefs, albeit indirectly) and saying 'please' and 'thank you' for the balloon, myself.

Thank you, mamas... It feels good to know that others can see where I'm coming from.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

My second daughter was shy like that in public and no amount of manners teaching from us would've changed that. The lady was obnoxious and I am sooooo glad you stuck up for your little guy. Good for you!


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

I agree, more or less, with everything that's already been written in terms of the teaching of manners, the "magic word" and the cashier ideally backing off.

That having been said, I'd like to say a few words in defense of the cashier.

She likely encounters incredibly rude kids all the time. She likely encounters parents who 1) don't and/or 2) allow their kids to be rude and demanding of her and everyone else around them - how could she have known that, in this case, a child not saying "please" was anything different? Anyone who has worked retail can identify with the broad range of abuse suffered at the hands of people who have just completety abdicated parenting altogether. Moreover, she might not have children of her own and has only her own childhood as a model or some idea of how checkers interact with the children.

I think the OP would have been better served to let her know at the outset - at the first uttering of the dreaded "magic word" that it's just not they way manners are taught in her family. I mean, how hard would it have been to get involved in the outset - if not to protect the cashier, then to keep her son from feeling "awkward". If the cashier felt she was in "a spitting contest with a five year old" I can't imagine for the life of me why the one person who could have prevented it, didn't.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
If the cashier felt she was in "a spitting contest with a five year old" I can't imagine for the life of me why the one person who could have prevented it, didn't.

I would think that the cashier herself was the one person who could have prevented it. I can't guarantee it, but I am 99.9% sure that demanding courtesy from customer's children is not in her job description. The mother was doing her job- protecting her child.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I say please when I ask for things, and so does my daughter.

She's very shy, and she's only two. And NO - I don't prompt her. She follows my lead. She also says thank you...









I used to be a store clerk and I would've been mildly offended as well. The key word being *mildly*. I don't know - I find manners to be lacking in so many kids these days. They're not that hard to teach (by example or whatnot).

I would've used it as a teaching experience as well.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.

I totally agree with this. In the south it is culturally acceptable to have good manners. If you do not have good manners you are looked down upon. Please, Thank You, Yes Maam No Maam are signs of respect and being courteous to others. Not only do we mirror it, we also teach this to our children from a very early age. Manners are something to be proud of, especially in a society where so many people are flippant and rude.
I agree the woman was wrong in the way she acted, but I can understand her reaction. I know that if my child had not said "please" or "May I have a balloon" I would have been midly embarrassed.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I totally agree with this. In the south it is culturally acceptable to have good manners. If you do not have good manners you are looked down upon.

Oh, well, I am from Pennsylvania- good manners just aren't important here.

Seriously, there were two people who had manner lapses here- the child and the clerk. I would be a lot more likely to cut the shy child some slack than the pushy adult.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I say please when I ask for things, and so does my daughter.

She's very shy, and she's only two. And NO - I don't prompt her. She follows my lead. She also says thank you...









Your dd's level of shyness then is waaaaaaaay less than either of my dds'. I wouldn't describe a 2yo who would ask for a balloon from a stranger using 'please' as 'shy'. My dds might point and whisper 'balloon' but nothing else, even my 4yo. And they are very polite when they are with family or close friends.

I always phrase things for dds and say the pleases along with the request for them , to fend off this sirt of incident. Like, "S says please may she have a balloon?" after she's tugged on my shirt and pointed.

*NO* amount of parental guidance or adult insistence will make a really shy child speak out in full, polite sentences to a stranger. If the magic word were a requirement, my dds would just go without every treat. Just because they are shy


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
My take on this is that
A) her initial request for a 'please' was ok, it was when she started insisting on it that I felt my boundaries crossed as a mother, and
B) when she became somewhat hostile at the end of the whole thing, I felt really offended


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

She's very shy, and she's only two. And NO - I don't prompt her. She follows my lead. She also says thank you...
When my son first began talking, he used pleased and thank you all the time, but often people couldn't understand what he was saying. As he got older, and more self conscious about certain situations, he now sometimes will do something like nestle his head into my leg or shoulder as he looks at the person rather than remembering to say please or thank you. But he is never rude.

And I'm sure the cashier was offended. But that's the gamble you take when you act in a condescending way towards someone, child or adult. And I totally agree with the poster who said that she probably just didn't know any different. I don't think it means she is a nasty person. But I certainly wouldn't have offered up my kid to avoid offending her. I probably would have said "He doesn't know what "magic word" means."


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

Your dd's level of shyness then is waaaaaaaay less than either of my dds'.
Exscuse me? And on what level did you suddenly have this lightening bolt of insight?







: You don't know my child at all. My dd is verrrrrrrrrrrryyyy shy. Very. She probably also would have only whispered *balloon* - but the please would have been tacked on at the end. Yeesh.

Quote:

I probably would have said "He doesn't know what "magic word" means."
That's exactly what I would have said.







And I totally agree that the cashier pushed the issue and was therefore in the wrong. I just hate to see people slough off the idea of manners. It's such a simple concept, and it's so much nicer to deal with people who are civil (and yes I realize kids get a lot more leeway as they're only learning!).


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues...


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

First of all, I have a different view of teaching children "manners" or if they should say please or not or whatever.However, that doesn't matter here.

She's a store employee.She's not the manner police.So even with a different view than yours I could have felt offended the minute she asked for the magic word.I probably would not have reacted at all though, enjoying the embarrassement to show on her face because like your son, my daughter wouldn't have said anything.

Any dumbwit would be able to see that a 5 year old boy acting like this is SHY and not out trying to be impolite intentionally.Why am I saying this?It's none of her business, she's not giving out balloons as an act of charity!


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Seriously, there were two people who had manner lapses here- the child and the clerk. I would be a lot more likely to cut the shy child some slack than the pushy adult.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I would be slightly upset/embarrassed if my child refused to say please or thank you, but OTOH, it's not the cashier's job to teach YOUR child manners. I can see how she was miffed, but she did step over the line by badgering your ds.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I have had this problem before. When Gracie was not even able to talk (she was and still is very tall for her age, off the charts) a cashier at a big chain store started to insist that she say "thank you" for some crummy sticker. I was totally annoyed -- Gracie was only one year old and some weird cashier was butting into the way I raise my child.

I'm with you, the person way overstepped her bounds. I would call management. That way she won't inflict her own bad manners on someone else.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I would've told my 5 yo. dd, who is also very shy, that she has to say please or not get the balloon. It's just "please", but it's also just a balloon. No one's world would have ended if we would've walked out without one. The world, our society and our culture have very strange ideas and customs. Unless we were to move to a deserted island, she needs to deal with it.

Now, I wouldn't make a fuss or embarrass her or even "reprimand" her. I'd give her a very brief explanation and just drop it.

However, you (the OP) are raising your child differently, so I can see how someone else forcing your child to step outside of your rules could offend.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

I think the cashier was way out of line.

When ds was about 2.5 yrs we were at the bakery section in the grocery store. Kids can get a free cookie there. Ds asked for one. As the clerk was handing him the cookie, she said, "What do you say?". He didn't even have the cookie, yet! He just looked at me, then buried his face in my shoulder. I just said no thanks and left.







:

I do not force manners. I also don't expect my ds to remember to say please and thank you every time. He's 3, he forgets. If he doesn't say it, I do. It's a gentle reminder and the person gets thanked. As he gets older, he'll remember more. Also, he doesn't always say please and thank you to strangers. He always remembers with close families and friends.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

May May

I think you did a great job. The balloons don't even belong to the cashier. By insisting on "please" in that way, she didn't give your ds the opportunity to say thank you. My ds is slightly shy and better with thank yous than pleases. That cashier would have had my ds near tears.

We all want our children to be polite but refusing a shy child a balloon because he didn't use the "magic word" is ridiculous.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

I think you handled it well- I would have said more sooner, as I think she was out-of-line. I would not be rude, but I would be firm....The "magic word" thing irritates me (I do say "please" and "thank you" but I still would have no idea what that meant :LOL ) but I'd give someone the benefit of the doubt....but the second line- um no, no way, it's not her job to police your child. I'm going to guess that the cost of that balloon does not come out of her salary, so it probably not going to personally hurt her to give you one, especially when you asked (having worked in a store I'll say many parents do not ask and just take stuff like that).

People do stuff like this ALOT to my son (he's a cutie, what can I say







). Basically they ask him to say things, like "thank you" or "hello." What they don't realize is that my son literally cannot say the word "thank you" (and only just learned "hello")- but he is aware that they are asking him something and it makes him frustrated/sad.....I politely but firmly say that he does not say that word yet. If they press him then I have to







. If we don't stick up for our kids, who will??


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

If you did indeed say your piece in a respectable tone then I think you did a great job of 1. defending your son, and 2. maybe helping the cashier rethink her approach.

I can totally see how what happened would annoy you. I personally wouldn't call the store and complain to management though and I wouldn't make it a big deal with my child either. Not everyone parents the same way and people aren't always going to act/react to children/situations the same way. I think that's a good lesson for kids to learn.

Also, I would try to view the whole experience in a positive light. You responded graciously to a rude person. Not only did you (hopefully) enlighten that person, but I guarentee you taught your son a profound lesson in true manners by not being rude right back.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I place a very high level of importance on showing manners and respecting other people. My kids would have said please without being prompted, because they hear me and DH say it all the time. I would not expect them to get a balloon if they didn't ask politely and say please and thankyou. How old is he?

but I do agree, she did overstep her boundaries there, a little. Not by wanting him to say please, but by insisting upon it. You and your son hurt her feelings, and she has every right to feel the way she did about it. I think it would have been a really good chance for some constructive dialogue with your son about showing respect, using good manners, and hurting other people's feelings.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I do not under ANY circumstances give my children balloons. They are such potential choking hazards and I don't want my kids around them...

Anyways! I think that you did every great. What would she have done if you didn't say Please? NOT give you/him the balloon? That would be taking it to extremes and she could possibly get in big trouble. It isn't her place to teach your child. It is her place to ring up the food, get the money and cut a balloon for your son. That is it.

Our children say please and thank you and your welcome. Sometimes they do need prompting when they get really excited about something. Mommy giving them a balloon (never happen) would be one of those things. We do say "magic word" but probably only once that I can ever remember and it was DH, probably slipped out from childhood. I think you did great! I would have pushed it and said "What? you aren't going to give it to him now?"...but I am cranky like that sometimes!


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I think tone is so important when speaking to people. I ask my ds to do a million things a day, I don't always say please. "Baby, could you get me some water?" is a perfectly polite question. "Get me water" is not.








"Please" is just a word. It really is the tone that conveys the intention and the cashier was waaaay out of line. If she honestly had gotten herself into a pissing contest with a five-year-old or if she had gotten her feelings hurt (







I still don't get that one), then she needs to grow up. That sort of foolishness is on her, not the OP.

Quote:

I totally agree with this. In the south it is culturally acceptable to have good manners.
In some areas of the south it is also culturally acceptable to fly the confederate flag. I live in the south, but I'm certainly not going to be embarrassed if my own five-year-old doesn't parrot the word "please" within an otherwise politely worded request. Maybe because my roots (thankfully) lie in New England, where I guess we're rude as heck (but at least ya' know what I'm thinking).

Missy


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

Manners Schmanners.... I'm sure your child is a caring good person...like someone said before...forcing our children to say certain words is like programming them to be robots. They can speak for themselves when and how they want to, as long as they aren't intentionally hurting people. I think we need to get rid of the whole please and thank you deal all together. and someone also mentioned before that her job is to ring the groceries and cut the balloon. SHEESH.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

maybe i'm the oddball here, but manners are an integral part of common courtesy, and my dp and i both agree that it is important to teach children good manners at an early age ~ both by example AND positive reinforcement.

when my son was 2.5 y.o., his preschool teacher pulled us aside + complimented us ~ our son was the only one in the class to consistently say please & thank you.

we don't make a huge deal out of it, but in our home (and town, and society!) it is expected. and, part of our job as parents is to teach our children how to function in our society. we go farther in life if we display good manners to our fellow humans. this also means understanding the social conventions of a society & respecting them ~ which *also* means, in a culture that utilizes "please" and "thank you" as mechanisms of common courtesy (within a framework of polite speech / tone of voice), our children ought to be taught to follow these social conventions. they harm no-one, and everyone comes away feeling better about themselves. (is anything cuter than a 3-y.o. saying, "may i have a cookie peez?"







)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

maybe i'm the oddball here, but manners are an integral part of common courtesy, and my dp and i both agree that it is important to teach children good manners at an early age ~ both by example AND positive reinforcement.
You're not the oddball - everyone here is agreeing that manners are very important. We just apparently disagree on how manners are learned, or what constitutes good manners in the first place. Are they learned because you are forced to parrot certain words, or do you learn manners by modeling the influential people in your life? Are manners strictly about saying certain words, or can you still be polite while using words that you, as a 4 year old, are comfortable with in a given situation? Can you be polite without even using any words? I personally know that you can. Like I mentioned before, my ds1 was a very late talker, and before he knew any words, he was very polite and gentle in his mannerisms. And like someone else pointed out, when I say "honey, could you grab me a glass of water?" to my dh, I'm being perfectly polite. If he turned to me and said "And what do we say?" I'd be pretty pissed. If ds does say something to me in a rude or demanding way, tacking a "please" onto the end of it doesn't do much to make it polite. I have asked him before to think of a nicer way to ask me, and he does.

Our preschool teacher too has mentioned to me, and to ds, what wonderful manners he has. And while he does say please and thank you, it is more often his tone and mannerisms that they are referring to than his actual words.

I consider myself a very polite person, too much so at times, but even I can get distracted or excited and forget to say "thank you." So I can only imagine that for the world's most polite 4 year old, the words can sometimes escape them. And to put them on the spot, to make a big deal out of it and embarass them in a situation of which they are obviously already wary for whatever reason, seems kind of mean to me.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i definitely agree that it shouldn't be *forced* on children!

but i think gentle reminders are appropriate, and i agree w/ whoever said that if their child hadn't said it, they shouldn't get the balloon.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i definitely agree that it shouldn't be *forced* on children!

but i think gentle reminders are appropriate, and i agree w/ whoever said that if their child hadn't said it, they shouldn't get the balloon.









Isn't denying them the balloon unless they say it pretty much the definition of forcing it on them? It's punishing them for not saying it.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
when I say "honey, could you grab me a glass of water?" to my dh, I'm being perfectly polite. If he turned to me and said "And what do we say?" I'd be pretty pissed. If ds does say something to me in a rude or demanding way, tacking a "please" onto the end of it doesn't do much to make it polite. I have asked him before to think of a nicer way to ask me, and he does.

I agree completely. I think in a way, people expect more from little kids than they do adults. If mom had said "Can I have a balloon for my son?", do you think the cashier would have said "what's the magic word?". No, she would have said "sure", then she probably would've tried to force a thank you out of the child :LOL I truly believe that the tone of the request is far more important than the "please". It's not bad manners to ask nicely for the balloon without saying "please". It is _very_ bad manners to tell a child they won't get a balloon if they don't say please.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

In a situation where they give balloons out to all children every visit (that is what I got from the OP) I think it was dumb to try to force the child to say please. It would be nice if the children said please but I think the cashier was out of line to get in a snit all over a balloon she should have probably been giving out anyway. I probably would have just said my dc was shy and walked out without the balloon if she was going to be like that.
My dd is almost 5 and shy about talking to cashiers. She would've wanted a balloon but never asked the cashier for it. We've had cashiers try to give stickers to her and I will ask her to say thank you and if she doesn't I'll accept the sticker for her and say thank you.
I try to model good manners for dd... I use please and thank you when I ask her to do things. I do remind her to use manners sometimes but I don't force them esp. to get some reward.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think the cashier was really, really rude.

I'm imagining if I asked the cashier for a pen to sign a credit card slip - very politely, "Oh, do you have a pen I could use?" and she said, "What's the magic word?" I might deck her. No, actually I would fix her with an "I can't believe you would say such an ignorant thing" look, and just wait. Trader Joe's, in my experience, provides pens and balloon for customers who ask for them. Customer *service*.

I work the desk where I work sometimes, and lots of people come by to check out materials. I couldn't even tell you who said "please" to me today, and "thank you", and who just smiled, and who just asked politely, and who asked how my day was going... they were all polite and well-mannered, and I enjoyed all of the interactions. Politeness is so *not* about using a handful of words, it's about how you treat other people.

Dar


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The cashier was rude and disrespectful.

She got far more than she deserved from you both.

Anyone who would deny their child a balloon in that situation should hold themselves to the same standard. It probably won't happen, since the double standard is so established on this issue. But if you ever ever walk into a restaurant and the hostess says

"Sorry, you can't eat here unless you say please to me first"

Or if the mechanic says

"I'm decided not to tell you what I think is wrong with your car unless you thank me first for the time I took to check the engine"

Or if the cashier says

"We are running a special today, two for one coupons, but you only get to use that if you say please first"

Well, I hope you remember this thread.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

that was totally obnoxious of the woman at the store, and you handled it very smoothly, and much more politely than i wouldve. if it had been me in her shoes, it would never have crossed my mind to ask any child to say please. the fact that she asked him once wouldve irritated me, but to keep badgering both of you? please. ugh.

i will never understand why people assume that an adult, a total stranger, is somehow better than and more deserving of respect than a child..


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
It probably won't happen, since the double standard is so established on this issue. But if someone ever *does* say to you "Maam you may not have your receipt until you tell me thank you for my service to you today", I hope you are prepared to give them what they demand in order to get the bill/receipt/or bag of groceries away from them.

So, so true...

I think that is the point this really all comes down to. That there is this silent, second-class citizen/ double-standard rule for children. That because they're small, vulnerable, somewhat ignorant, and dependant we then have a right to veto *showing them respect,* as well as *following our own rules,* in the name of *teaching them a lesson.* But, to me, this is just like the person slapping/ spanking the child who just hit his sibling, saying, "Don't hit!"

I think that double standard is so ingrained that we often don't even notice it -- it's like we're in a trance.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
You're not the oddball - everyone here is agreeing that manners are very important. We just apparently disagree on how manners are learned, or what constitutes good manners in the first place. Are they learned because you are forced to parrot certain words, or do you learn manners by modeling the influential people in your life? .

It doesn;t make a different how you do it.But it is the parents call, not someone who feels compelled to interfere with how people raise their children.They have no right to do so in that position.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah*
I do not under ANY circumstances give my children balloons. They are such potential choking hazards and I don't want my kids around them...


I think this bears repeating.....I automatically assumed it was a mylar balloon (which is probably environmentally unsound....) but latex balloons are a HUGE choking hazard. One balloon can break into over 200 pieces when popped. Not telling anyone what to give their kids to play with, but honestly I didn't know this until I had ds and someone told me, so I thought I'd share.

And I love the pissing contest comment- yes, that's what it is.

And there are MANY ways to be polite.....


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
it should also be socialy acceptable to understand that little kids are still learning and growing, and that we should all cut them some slack in requiring adult manners from them

this is a pet peeve of mine. ds1 is very polite - says please, thank you, you're welcome, i'm sorry, etc. but sometimes he's nervous or shy or overwhelmed or distracted, and doesn't say it. he's still a very nce, polite kid. he was also a late talker, and i would have strangers offer him something and then say "aren't you going to say thank you?" even after i said thank you. he would feel so embarassed that he would often hand it back.

i think some adults really need to get over themselves. You handled the situation much like I would have.

Well said.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilhomegrownmama*

And I love the pissing contest comment- yes, that's what it is.


Let the record show I said *spitting*.
I would never swear on MDC.

:LOL


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I have only read the original post, but I wanted to respond. I think that you handled the situation beautifully. I actually do active teach my young children manners, and I do prompt them to use please and thank you, but regardless of how a family chooses to handle that issue, the woman at the store was totally out of line. My guess is that she doesn't have any children of her own and therefore doesn't understand how intimidated a small child can be by a strange adult making a request of him.

I think you were fabulous!









Namaste!

ETA: I think it would be appropriate for you to call TJ's manager and inform him of this person's behavior. We visit TJ's frequently and have always been treated with extreme courtesy. I think the manager would want to know if the company's image were being threatened by this type of behavior.


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## mommymarliah (Jun 29, 2004)

I think its good manners to say please, and I make my children say it when they want something. So honestly if I saw a child ask for something like that I would think it rude. That being said I don't think it was her place to interfere, but I do understand her expecting a please. I don't think its unacceptable for children to be taught to treat adults with respect. And thats what please and thank you is. Its showing respect.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommymarliah*
I don't think its unacceptable for children to be taught to treat adults with respect. And thats what please and thank you is. Its showing respect.

Ah, but was the cashier treating the child with respect? Was the cashier respecting the fact that the mother, not her, is in charge of teaching the child manners?


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

kids that say please and thankyou.... are they saying it bc they mean it or are they saying it bc their parents will reprimand them if they don't?


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
kids that say please and thankyou.... are they saying it bc they mean it or are they saying it bc their parents will reprimand them if they don't?


*ExActly*.....


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
kids that say please and thankyou.... are they saying it bc they mean it or are they saying it bc their parents will reprimand them if they don't?

That depends on whether their parents reprimand them if they don't say it, wouldn't you think?









I don't reprimand my kids for not saying it, because learning manners is not a discipline issue.

Namaste!


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Whoa gotta love heated threads!

I personally think that the cashier, out of respect for the childs Mom, should have asked the Mom if it was okay to give the balloon.
However Mom handled it, would be appropriate, he's her child, and her rules.
Does that seem wrong? I always asked the parents if their child could have something, like when I worked in a bank, we would hand out stickers. Some parents hated it, because their kids would put them all over their car, or eat them! So I always asked quietly if it was okay. Even if the kids ask for it, I would smile and ask the parent, and say to the child, "If its okay with your Mommy or Daddy." I know some parents don't like to be put on the spot, but frankly it is up to them.
I really don't appreciate when other people try to parent kids that are not their own.
okay. thanks.









oh, another thing, I personally don't force my dd to use her manners, at least not until she understands why she uses them. Same with saying sorry. Whats the point if you don't know why?
That being said, she uses thank you and sorry always when appropriate. Picked it up from me I guess...I'm always sorry for something


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Oh, well, I am from Pennsylvania- good manners just aren't important here.

Ain't that the truth!







At least in my personal experience, it has been.


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

Me too, I'm always sorry for something...my ds has been saying Sowy all the time!!!!!! Driving me coo coo.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Oh man, I hate these threads where there are so many things I want to add that I can't figure out where to start.

First, I agree that the clerk was out of line to insist on "please" from your son and rude to all concerned. I also want to echo Amyjean's comment that a store employee should never give something to a child without the parent's permission. What if he had been allergic to latex or something? Had it been me, I probably would have waited until the clerk made a request of me or my child and then pointed out that she hadn't said "please". And my child would have said "supercalifragalisticexpealidotious" (OK, that I KNOW I didn't spell correctly!)

Totally as an aside -- I hate stores that give out balloons anyway because they are a choking hazard, they are bad for the environment, they get in the way in the car and when they pop in my ear I'm likely to hit something.

To the question of manners and "words". Yes, intent is probably more important that words. And yes, there is frequently a double standard when children are involved. But I also think that we should teach our children the "right" words and help them to use them in public, along with the respectful-to-everyone attitude that should go with them, for a couple of reasons. First, we should all (child, adult, teen) respect others and this is one way to show that. Which means that I should also say "please" when requesting something in public (what you do in your home isn't the issue). The words are an outward sign on an inward attitude. On a very practical level, children who use polite words are often treated better by adults than those who don't. Given the number of hurdles to being treated well that kids are up against, doesn't it make sense to give them every advantage we can? I'm not sure that it matters WHY they use the words (true respect or parental expectation), what matters is that the other person will hear them and respond better.


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## armonia (Mar 24, 2002)

I would have told her either:

"You didn't say PLEASE say the magic word."









or

"PLEASE talk to me, not my child. Thank you."


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

hmm, you know i can't stop thinking about this thread.

i agree that the cashier should not have insisted on it...

as for a "double standard" ~ i almost always says please / thank you / etc when speaking with anyone, cashier, mechanic, whoever. it's just *common courtesy* ~ and i expect it from myself as well as my children. i don't think it's a double standard at all... *except* in cases where the adult insists on it *and doesn't do it themself*. (is "themself" a word?)

intent *is* more important than the words used, *but* the words are /also/ important. so is tone... i'm working on that right now with my son, who picked up somewhere that it's ok to say, "Give me ____" as long as you follow it with a quick "please."

example:

Michael: Give me a cookie.
Me: What?
Michael: ... please?
Me: No.
Michael: Whhyyyyyyy?
Me: Because you didn't ask nicely.
Michael: Oh. I said please.
Me: ... but that doesn't make what you said nice.
Michael: Oh. ... May I please have a cookie?

you know? the overall structure just makes it so much nicer.

can you imagine a world where *everyone* used basic manners all the time, with everyone?

Grocer: Well hello Miss B, how are you doin' today?
Me: I'm great, thanks, how about yourself?
Grocer: I'm doin' just fine. What can I get for you?
Me: Can I please get a pound of potato salad, and a pound of broccoli salad?
Grocer: Sure thing ~
Me: Thanks!

Me: Will you please move your car? It's blocking my parking space.
J: OH! I'm sorry, I didn't realize that. I'll do that right now.
Me: Ok, thank you.
J: You're welcome.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *armonia*
"You didn't say PLEASE say the magic word."

!!!!! what an excellent point!!!!! i didn't even thinking about that.


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

I want to know if the cashier ever said "thank you" to you for buying groceries, which gave money to the store so that she has a job and gets paid herself. That deserved better manners than a silly balloon for a cute little innocent four-year old.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Exscuse me? And on what level did you suddenly have this lightening bolt of insight?







: You don't know my child at all. My dd is verrrrrrrrrrrryyyy shy. Very. She probably also would have only whispered *balloon* - but the please would have been tacked on at the end. Yeesh.

My only insight was from your description of your dd, "I say please when I ask for things, and so does my daughter."

So, I assumed that your dd would have asked for the balloon and said 'please'.

My point was that I too have modelled good manners for my children, but they would never ask a stranger for something, let alone say please. All children are different. Mine happen to have special needs. The OP said that her ds is very shy. If he is like my children, and she were to follow the advice given by some here to deny a child a treat if he/she does not follow a code and use specific words, he would never get a treat.

Which seems very wrong to me.

I do not know your dd, obviously. Nor do I know the OP's son. I am drawing conclusions from what you and she say about your children.

My response I guess is coloured by the fact that as a parent of a special needs child, I hear constantly that if you do x, your child will do y. Believe me, with some children, it just does not work like that. Parenting a special needs child is a very humbling experience, and it makes you more aware that you can only have a certain amount of influence on how the child turns out.

Obviously we all have our own definition of 'shy', and my attitude to this is coloured by the experiences I have as a parent where strangers expect my children to act a certain way, eg because 'manners are important'. To me, what is important is the intent. No stranger knows what my child is processing as she sees a balloon in Trader Joes and wants one. So they cannot judge how good her manners are, or are not. For my four year old to whisper 'balloon' or to look at the cashier and point, is a major accomplishment. That for me is a definition of 'shy'. I apologise if your daughter is more shy than your original description indicated. But my point stands, that some children NO MATTER how 'well' the parents role model or cajole or encourage or insist on manners, cannot and will not 'perform' the way that some members of the public expect (like this cashier).

Hope this explains where I'm coming from.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i should add -- i think if it's a treat, the child shouldn't have to ask for it, but should say thank you. i mean, if the cashier had said "would you like a balloon?" and then denied it because the child didn't say please -- that would be wrong. but if a child wants something and asks for it... i consider that different.

like... i give my son a birthday cake, but i don't make him ask for it. it's a treat -- something special i do for him in celebration of his life. or if he has especially good behaviour, i give him a treat -- a sticker or small toy -- as an expression of my gratitude. if there are a group of children w/ whom i am sharing cookies, i don't deny them because one doesn't say please ~ treat's like that are distributed equally. am i making sense? if the situation is that the cashier had balloons to give out to kids -- _and then didn't want to give one away because a child didn't say please_... that doesn't seem right to me. but i interpreted as -- the child wanted something that was not expressly being offered to him, in which case, i think he ought to ask nicely or not ask at all. BUT: if he is unable (too young, too shy) OR otherwise asks nicely & but then gets intimidated by a bossy cashier -- he should still get what he asks for. yk?

after thinking about this awhile -- i think the cashier acted rudely (maybe she doesn't have enough experience with children?), and i think the OP did what was right for her -- but if it were me, i would have said something like, "nevermind! if you don't want to give up the balloon just say so."


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I wanted to throw in that I get annoyed whenever people (strangers or distant acquaintances) try to make any kid under six or seven say anything.

Small children are shy and easily embarrassed. They don't yet have the "social face" down. I think it's nice to model politeness, encourage politeness and praise politeness, but it irks me no end when people try to withold treats or punish kids for basically being shy or scared or embarrased.

If I was just learning French I would feel very hurt if a person at a store wouldn't sell me something because I didn't use exactly the correct phrasing. I imagine everyone in the store staring at me waiting for me to try to guess what the correct verb conjugation is while I desperately long to just go home with my baguette. This is what people do when they try to force words out of kids. It's mean.

That said I do encourage dd to say please and thank you and insist on it at home. With us I feel she should be practicing her social skills. I just don't think she'll be ready to face the world with them for a while.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i should add -- i think if it's a treat, the child shouldn't have to ask for it, but should say thank you. i mean, if the cashier had said "would you like a balloon?" and then denied it because the child didn't say please -- that would be wrong. but if a child wants something and asks for it... i consider that different.

My impression was that it it store policy to give kids balloons and that the boy was not asking for a treat but expressing a color preference.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I understand what everyone is saying about the importance of manners. Really, I do. But I don;t think this was really about manners. It was about an adult who was not the child's parent attempting to impose her will on a child.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
can you imagine a world where *everyone* used basic manners all the time, with everyone?

Grocer: Well hello Miss B, how are you doin' today?
Me: I'm great, thanks, how about yourself?
Grocer: I'm doin' just fine. What can I get for you?
Me: Can I please get a pound of potato salad, and a pound of broccoli salad?
Grocer: Sure thing ~
Me: Thanks!

Me: Will you please move your car? It's blocking my parking space.
J: OH! I'm sorry, I didn't realize that. I'll do that right now.
Me: Ok, thank you.
J: You're welcome.


















klothos--I love you, and I usually agree with you 100%--but do you really think that the above conversations were made posisble by the words "please" and "thank you"? or do you think the basis of these convos (and I wholeheartedly agree that it would be WONDERFUL if they occured more frequently!) is really kindness, tone of voice and sincerity? To me, really, the convos would pretty much be the same even if you took away the Ps and TYs, but left in the caring and smiles.

For example, this convo uses those, but is no where near as nice as those you described
Grocer: What can I get you?
Me: A pound of ham please. Slice it thin, thanks.
Grocer: Here you go. [hands me the ham]Thanks for shopping here.
Me: Yep, thanks [tosses ham in cart and walks off]

This convo uses no Ps or TYs, but is nice none the less:
Grocer: Good morning miss, how are you?
Me: I'm fine! And how's everything with you?
Grocer: Pretty good! How can I help you.
Me: I'd like a half pound of the lowfat swiss.
Grocer: Sure thing! Would you like to try a slice 1st?
Me: That'd be great. [tastes cheese] Wow, that's pretty good. Actually, I'll take pound.
Grocer: Here you go. Take care!
Me: You too-Have a nice weekend! [puts cheese in cart, smiles and waves]

I'm not trying to be a PITA, but do you kind of see what I'm saying?

Back on topic: I agree with those that say it wasn't an issue for her to ask the 1st time. I do think she overstepped her boundries by insisting for a please with something that I took to be customary at that store. She wasn't going out of her way, nor was she going beyond the call of duty. Now, had she cut the balloon, it floated to the ceiling, she had to close her lane, run and get a ladder to fetch the balloon, THEN i could see her being bent on the "thank you" or whatever.

For those of you who think the mom should have insisted, or that she cashier shouod have with held the balloon, I don't agree. I do think it would have set a good example if the mom had said something like "It would be very nice of you to say please." or "Can you think of a nice way to ask for the balloon?" instead of "she wants you to say please" or whatever, emphasizing that there is a better way to ask for it, while not forcing him.

Best Wishes,
Kelly


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Small children are shy and easily embarrassed. They don't yet have the "social face" down. I think it's nice to model politeness, encourage politeness and praise politeness, but it irks me no end when people try to withold treats or punish kids for basically being shy or scared or embarrased.

If I was just learning French I would feel very hurt if a person at a store wouldn't sell me something because I didn't use exactly the correct phrasing. I imagine everyone in the store staring at me waiting for me to try to guess what the correct verb conjugation is while I desperately long to just go home with my baguette. This is what people do when they try to force words out of kids. It's mean.


Very well put!!!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
My impression was that it it store policy to give kids balloons and that the boy was not asking for a treat but expressing a color preference.

OH. well that changes the situation a lot...


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I wanted to throw in that I get annoyed whenever people (strangers or distant acquaintances) try to make any kid under six or seven say anything.

Small children are shy and easily embarrassed. They don't yet have the "social face" down. I think it's nice to model politeness, encourage politeness and praise politeness, but it irks me no end when people try to withold treats or punish kids for basically being shy or scared or embarrased.

If I was just learning French I would feel very hurt if a person at a store wouldn't sell me something because I didn't use exactly the correct phrasing. I imagine everyone in the store staring at me waiting for me to try to guess what the correct verb conjugation is while I desperately long to just go home with my baguette. This is what people do when they try to force words out of kids. It's mean.

That said I do encourage dd to say please and thank you and insist on it at home. With us I feel she should be practicing her social skills. I just don't think she'll be ready to face the world with them for a while.











ITA - great post!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andreac*
Very well put!!!

thanks, I love to tease the french.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

YIKES!
I think I may have just changed my mind about this.

This evening Kailey and I did a little grocery shopping and at the check-out the bagger said hi to Kailey and asked her what her name was. Of course she is shy and didn't answer. The bagger looked at me like I was supposed to force her to tell him her name. First of all, I don't just go around handing out my four year olds name to anyone, and second, she can speak for herself. Apparently she had nothing to say to him. he then tried to bribe her with a free ticket to the circus that will be here tomorrow. he said, "if I give you a ticket can I at least get a high five?" Kailey shook her head no, and he got all "whateverish". I just giggled and said, "she must know something about you we don't" The cashier bust out laughing and so did Kailey! :LOL

So it's all about experience I guess.

Forcing a young child to talk to you is not kosher, ever.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

That cashier was totally out of line in even asking for a please in the first place. I have worked in restaurnts for over 15 years and in one we used to hand out balloons. NEVER would I ask a child to say anything. The balloons are there for them and for me to hand out. If they didn't say thank you I might roll my eyes about them after thaey left but NEVER would I say anything out loud.
And on the other hand when I wait tables I hate waiting for a child to say please or thank you to me while the parent cojoles them inot it and they have no desire to say it. I usually say "that's ok...you can get me next time" to the kid with a wink.


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chersolly*
She should of just given up the balloon. You're there for groceries, not ettiquette lessons.


I agree. I also agree that you handled it very well! I would've complained to the manager...but, that's just me!


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

CookieMonsterMommy,
I totally agree with your point about *attitude* being more important than words used. If you read my second post on this thread, post #39, near the bottom of page 2, you can see where I pointed out the very same thing using the situation of a child being 'forced' to say "sorry" and then saying it in an insincere way. (I won't explain the whole thing here again, you can go to page 2, if you'd like...)

I guess it's for that exact reason, combined with the fact that my son is only four, very empathetic, and gentle-natured that I didn't feel the need to make the situation any more uncomfortable for him by trying to mix in a *lesson* at this time. This is in reference to:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
I do think it would have set a good example if the mom had said something like "It would be very nice of you to say please." or "Can you think of a nice way to ask for the balloon?" instead of "she wants you to say please" or whatever, emphasizing that there is a better way to ask for it, while not forcing him.

Don't get me wrong. I am all about kindness shown actively and constantly. And I am very comprehensive in my teaching/expectations of my children in this department -- _*I* insist_ on sincerity, even. Saying please or thank you or sorry in an insincere way really gets me fired up. BUT this is all in the context of my own home or with familiar people, where I SHOW by active example how to LIVE this way. For example, I express gratitude in creative ways constantly to all of my family members for even the littlest things -- it is a spiritual practice for me, as well as a means of teaching my children how to be kind (instead of just _telling_ them...).

Gandhi said, "*BE* the change you wish to see in the world" -- that's my moto. He did not say "Tell (your children, etc.) about the change you wish to see."

And it _has_ paid off!

I hear compliments left and right about how thoughtful, courteous, well-mannered, and empathetic both of my children are, but especially my ten y/o -- and _I_ believe it is *because she is ten*. When she was my son's age (four), she, too, was awkward and shy around strangers, _especially_ if put on the spot by one of them!

BTW --

Not only is it this store's policy to hand out balloons and stickers to children at the checkout every time, (which my son has become accustomed to), but my son's previous experience with the folks at Trader Joe's has been that they are quite boisterous, outgoing, and very friendly to him. It is *only* for this reason that he even had the courage to go up to the lady and speak to her in the first place! In any other situation/store, with folks less outgoing and such, he would have been very quiet and/or hugging my arm/leg or sitting in the cart quietly. It was a situation that was actually helping to actively encourage his exploration of relationships/sociality with (trustworthy) strangers. He had come to know them as very 'safe' people for talking with. I won't be surprised if he is more guarded there, next time...


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

Quote:

It was about an adult who was not the child's parent attempting to impose her will on a child.
It was none of the cashiers business to keep pushing saying please.

My middle dd is very polite at home. In public, she's terrified to speak to others. If a cashier pushed her to say something, anything, she'd just start to cry. She's not being rude, she just has emotional problems.

I also don't feel that children should be forced to do things along the lines mentioned here. I hate when someone says to my 2 year old "Can I have a kiss?" & before she can answer, or if she says no, they kiss her anyway. My 11 year old will sometimes ask her for a hug & sometimes she says no. If I see my 11 year old trying to hug her anyway, I remind her that her sister said no. If she tells me no to when I ask for a hug or a kiss, I listen. Sometimes you just want to be left alone. Why ask if you aren't going to listen to the answer?


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I think the cashier was out of line and the OP handled it perfectly. The cashier probably wasn't trying to be as obnoxious as she was - but once you start insisting on something, it can be hard to back down without looking creepy (ironically, just backing off right away is far less creepy).

Manners are important - up here in New England too. I think everyone should speak nicely to each other. But some kids are shy - would anyone really deny a kid a balloon because they are shy? To me the difference between a rude child and a shy child is enormous - I can't really imagine confusing the two. Parents know their own kids and I suppose if you know your child is perfectly capable of saying please, but the child is choosing not to, withholding (1 h? 2?) the balloon isn't a huge deal. But if your child is too shy to say please (and some kids get shy when something is being demanded of them, it's natural) I think it's terrible if they can't have a balloon.

I hate balloons and hate when people give them to my kids, or offer them to my kids, without asking me first. There's the safety issue, the environmental issue, the fact that I know someone is going to let go and we'll have a crying issue - I just hate them.

I also think the message of asking your kids to speak to cashiers and balloon givers is mixed. I'm reading _Protecting the Gift_ and it's freaking me out. The whole, "We never talk to strangers" becomes "unless they're offering us a balloon or a sticker..." And forcing a kid to ignore their own signals and say something polite if they're not feeling it can be dangerous.

I'd have been irritated as well - with the cashier I mean. Good job sticking up for your shy child!


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zaftigmama*
I also think the message of asking your kids to speak to cashiers and balloon givers is mixed. I'm reading _Protecting the Gift_ and it's freaking me out. The whole, "We never talk to strangers" becomes "unless they're offering us a balloon or a sticker..." And forcing a kid to ignore their own signals and say something polite if they're not feeling it can be dangerous.

That is a VERY GOOD POINT! The whole "manners" debate clouds an essential issue -- we promote our childrens' safety when we encourage them to talk only to people they are comfortable talking to. We decrease our childrens' safety when we pressure them into any interaction, no matter how socially prescribed it is, that doesn't feel right to them for whatever reason.


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

I haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to weigh in because I have mixed feelings on the topic. I do think it is important to teach our kids manners and I don't think my kids would generally say please and thank you without me teaching them to do it. They could watch me do plenty of things like clean up, put laundry in the hamper, etc. without ever feeling like it is something they have to do unless I teach them that it is expected of them. I do think the TJ store clerk should have let it go because it is the parent's responsibility and the clerk should have followed the mom's lead if the mom wanted her to drop it.

I volunteer to serve lunch once a week at my dd's school and it does bother me that the majority of the kids (1st grade - 5th grade) never say please or thank you as you serve them. They just point to what they want and grunt or give one word commands of the food they want. I do say "your welcome" to try to remind them to use manners, but I don't force them to say please or thank you because I am not their parent and I have to keep the line moving. I think most of the parents would be embarassed to see how rude their kids seem at lunch. And I feel bad for the regular catering workers whose job it is to be there every day and have kids treat them like furniture.

I hope there is a middle ground between browbeating kids to speak politely and waiting until the day somewhere down the line when they suddenly feel inspired to be polite.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lil'M*

I volunteer to serve lunch once a week at my dd's school and it does bother me that the majority of the kids (1st grade - 5th grade) never say please or thank you as you serve them. They just point to what they want and grunt or give one word commands of the food they want. I do say "your welcome" to try to remind them to use manners, but I don't force them to say please or thank you because I am not their parent and I have to keep the line moving. I think most of the parents would be embarassed to see how rude their kids seem at lunch. And I feel bad for the regular catering workers whose job it is to be there every day and have kids treat them like furniture.

I hope there is a middle ground between browbeating kids to speak politely and waiting until the day somewhere down the line when they suddenly feel inspired to be polite.


There *is* definately a middle ground.

ITA that, by the time a child is seven, he/she should be using manners consistently. And yes, I think it is right to discuss as well as model manners with children seven and older. But I don't raise my children with a lot of talking/discussing/intellectual/thought-producing _before_ that time.. During the earlier years, I teach by example; using constant, varying methods.

I, too, have a (very) hard time with older children who do not seem to feel gratitude or appreciation. I think, even more than the manners issue, that that has a very harmful effect on our future as a civilization. Lack of gratitude is, in my opinion, a major cause of depression and also a cause of anger for a lot of people, such as the situation in your post, Lil'M.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

@ Britishmum -

Quote:

Hope this explains where I'm coming from.
I totally get you now. Thanks for explaining.







Sorry I was getting cranky - must learn to separate computer from real life bad days!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
@ Britishmum -

I totally get you now. Thanks for explaining.







Sorry I was getting cranky - must learn to separate computer from real life bad days!









Me too - and boy, yesterday was a tough one!

Thanks.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
Manners Schmanners.... I'm sure your child is a caring good person...like someone said before...forcing our children to say certain words is like programming them to be robots. They can speak for themselves when and how they want to, as long as they aren't intentionally hurting people. I think we need to get rid of the whole please and thank you deal all together. and someone also mentioned before that her job is to ring the groceries and cut the balloon. SHEESH.









I agree.
I teach my kids good manners, and most of the time they say please, and thank you, but I don't make a big deal if they don;t say it every single time.

I think the lady was out of line. It's not her place to try and force your child to say things.
She has some nerve trying to force good manners, when she turned around and acted snotty cause things didn't go her way.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
Then she'll say, "YEs," and stick out her chin, wishing to pull out the word MAM.


















You would cracking up at me right now! I actually caught myself acting out your post!









I have to say, you did a great job describing the movement. As soon as I re-created the motion, I knew exactly what you were talking about.....







:


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree the cashier was totally out of line.

Using 'please' and 'thank you' doesn't make one well-mannered. And not using them doesn't make one rude.

My friend gave my 3 yr. old a box of really beautiful museum stickers. His immediate response was, "Oh my GOSH! How thoughtful. I LOVE them!" Was that ill-mannered? I don't think so. Later he did, indeed say, "thank you so much!" but he'd already conveyed his gratitude and expressed himself politely.

Oh, and I'm totally stealing "SHAZAAM!" :LOL


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
If I was just learning French I would feel very hurt if a person at a store wouldn't sell me something because I didn't use exactly the correct phrasing. I imagine everyone in the store staring at me waiting for me to try to guess what the correct verb conjugation is while I desperately long to just go home with my baguette. This is what people do when they try to force words out of kids. It's mean.

This example really struck a chord with me because it happened to me trying to buy a train ticket in Paris. I had I guess 6 years of French under my belt at this point and could read reasonably well and I certainly expected to be able to do simple things like ask how much a train ticket was. I swear to god this woman acted like she had no possible clue what I could possibly be asking her and went on to ignore me as I stood there still trying to communicate as she went through an elaborate kissing goodbye ritual with a coworker. At some point I gave up and asked is she spoke English to which I got a very snotty "non." I asked if anyone there spoke English which got another snotty "non." At that point I think I finally managed to find an automated ticket booth I could figure out and I basically gave up on trying to speak French the rest of the time I was there. Because yeah I knew I was using the right words I just wasn't saying them the right way or putting the right ending on them and I couldn't believe that she really had no clue what I was asking. For a kid being presented with a demand for the magic word I'm sure it would be just as confusing. Like what the heck do you want lady I asked nicely for a balloon. What isn't clear here.

My Dd is almost 2.5. We do model please and thank you for her. Due to a series of ear infections she's only really become verbal in the last few months. So first of all if she can actually verbalize to me what she wants I'm thrilled forget saying please. I'm more than happy to translate for her. She actually very rarely says please but she definitely knows how to ask nicely and knows that asking for something in a demanding voice is not going to get it because she has to ask nicely. Sometimes she'll even point out to me how nicely she's asking. :LOL Now she is really pretty good about saying "thank you" though she actually says "welcome" for both thank you and you're welcome. I do try to remind her to say thanks. At home she does it no problem but sometimes in a social situation if I ask her to say thank you she just puts her head down and is shy instead. And I don't push it. I think there's plenty of time for her to learn. Just simply by modeling saying "you're welcome" but not at all trying to teach her to say it if you thank her she almost always responds with a "welcome." I do agree with what some others have suggested that I probably would have immediately said "oh we don't use that phrase so he doesn't know what you mean" but still she was out of line especially once she tried to make an issue out of it. Yeah I'm sure she gets rude customers all the time but it's not her place to try to train a customers kid especially putting him on the spot like that.

ETA I am from the South btw and yes manners are important and they may be different manners than in other regions. Ma'am is important. My Dh always calls any woman he speaks to on the phone ma'am period it doesn't matter if it's clearly a teeny bopper working cs at whatever company he will say yes ma'am/no ma'am/please/thank you etc. People actually end up feeling he is much more polite than he actually is generally speaking because of these mannerisms because as someone else mentioned it doesn't matter if you mean them because they have meaning in a social context. But my DH is 30, my child is 2.5 she doesn't get that social context yet. As she gets older my expectations will change and I will expect more of that but it's all within the context and reading the last few posts about Protecting the Gift I'm reminded of the bits I've read of that book quoted in articles and it is an important point that we basically teach our kids that they must be polite to adults to the point that they don't know how to say no to them. Scary thought.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I kept thinking about how manners are supposed to make people feel more comfortable and ease social interactions. And if that's the case, how terribly ILL-mannered that cashier behaved.

From Miss Manners, herself:

Quote:

Here is a major etiquette rule you need to learn right now: The use of specialized knowledge of whatever kind to embarrass those who cannot be expected to know it is an etiquette violation. This is why we have a rule that the lapses of newcomers who are making an honest effort - including young children, by the way - should not be noticed, much less used to humiliate them.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

*WOW --*









*AMAZING POST
Monkey's Mom!!!*

Both what *YOU* said _and_ the quote! Excellent information!


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

I might even print that quote from Miss Manners, or maybe even your whole post, and show it to the cashier.

I have not said anything to the manager, there. Mainly because I want to be clear of my intent and, in situations such as this, I tend to wait, formulate, and THEN respond only when I'm sure of my intention.

Reading your post has helped me sharpen my awareness of intention and I think offering the cashier some constructive information will be a good way of manifesting my intention -- hopefully it will enlighten her/ *teach her a lesson* in a righteous way.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Yeah Miss Manners is awesome! Do it!


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## indiana ima (May 6, 2004)

i LOVE miss manners. she's very witty. and yes, the point you quoted is one she makes with some frequency. it is worth remembering! i wish i could be as polite as i intend to be!

anyway, i've just read the entire thread and i want to weigh in on the side of "the first request for a please was ok(it takes a village and all that), the rest not so much". i think this cashier was probably someone rather clueless about little kids, who was almost certainly not trying to be a jerk, but was being a jerk anyway.

if the OP wants to write a letter to TJ about it, I think she might be doing other parents and children a favor.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Yana doesn't knwo what a magic word is either. She''ll probably say hocus pocus and freak the lady out.If she simply asked can you say please she would get it. If she wanted him to say please she should have asked him and if he didn't respond then she had no business pushing. It's not her place to give lessons in manners if the mom wanted to step in as she did great but not the cashiers job to be insistant. I also I agree though that afterwards would be the perfect time to talk to the child on what people would like as far as please and thank you's. I say please and thank you to my children and they say it in return but magic word, eh no.


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