# I'm the disrespectful one???



## anasmommy (Oct 24, 2007)

So I need some help her. DS is 13, he is a really good kid, usually super respectful, good listener, etc. Well lately he has gotten on this kick where whenever I ask him to do something, or am annoyed with having to ask him 5,000 times, he gets attitude and I tell him not to get attitude with me and he tells me that I am being disrespectful







:
My issue here is that we are big on respect in my house and we talk about it a lot. But he is misunderstanding what disrespect means and is using it as an excuse for being mouthy and having a bad attitude.
I tried to explain this to him, but more and more he is driving me mad with it.
I try not to resort to the "I'm the mom, I will talk how i want" but I am on the verge because unless I am letting him do what he wants, I am disrespectful.
any ideas or is it something he is just going to have to accept?


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Can you think of different ways to do the asking so that you don't end up i the same place?

When I started having trouble with 'nagging' I didn't speak to them unless I could look them right in the eye when I was asking them anything. Any problem with what I was asking was addressed there and then, the expectation of the job being done within a certain time frame or after xyz was negotiated if necessary and that was enough.

Is your ds upset with the kind of things you are asking him to do as wel as the asking? Is there the possibility of negotiating which tasks you need him to do and which tasks he can choose to do for you regularly then plan to do them without you feeling the need to nag?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I ask him to explain how he feels you are being disrespectful.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Yep... you need see if he can tell you what he is experiencing as disrespectful. When you talk to him try to use statements about yourself, and how *you* are feeling about/when "xyz" happens. If you can stop yourself from saying _"you can't"_ or _"you always..."_ or _"you never..."_ it will go a long way to ending instant defensive stuff from him.

I see you mentioned that you are trying to get out of the idea that because you are older than him that you can talk however you want to. That is a very very good thing to try and break away from!


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## bczmama (Jan 30, 2006)

"Yep... you need see if he can tell you what he is experiencing as disrespectful. When you talk to him try to use statements about yourself, and how you are feeling about/when "xyz" happens."

This, of course, assumes that he is really feeling disrespected and not simply manipulating/using it as a method to get the result he wants from Mom.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 

This, of course, assumes that he is really feeling disrespected and not simply manipulating/using it as a method to get the result he wants from Mom.

It definitely does assume that. Probably because overall I have not experienced teens being manipulative. I've got no doubt that some can be. They are human and humans can do that sometimes.

Asking him to explain it will make things pretty clear either way though.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

The more hormones my son gets the more careful I am getting. I think his developing minds and body has made him very "distractable". I found that eye contact, touch, et is more important when I get his attention.

I have found that getting interupted is even harder for him to deal with. I find that if I say "Get to a stopping point and do XYZ" or something like "Can you save that so after you get done with XYZ you can continue" gets better results. It says I respect what you are doing as valuable to you but I also need something from you.


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## anasmommy (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks for the input ladies.
Yesterday we had another run in it went something like this...
"I need you to put the dishes in the dishwasher before you go back on the computer"
"Why do I have to do it? Mia should do it when she gets home from gymnastics"
"I will give your sister another chore when she gets home but I need you to do the dishes so I can make dinner"
(Headshake, mumbling under breath) walks past me and lays on the couch.
"what are you doing?"
"I am resting, I am tired from school"
"It you choose not to do the dishes, you will choose to be in your room for the rest of the evening"
"I don't care"
"I'm really disappointed with your choice and if you choose not to do what you are asked again, some of your privledges will have to disappear."

And that is how it goes.
dh did the dishes and ds was in his room for the evening.

What am I doing wrong?
I really made a concerted effort to be nice and to be firm.
I guess maybe he is just testing me. I am going to take him out tonight and talk with him one on one as long as there are no run-ins. I am going to specifically ask him to give me examples of me being disrespectful to him.

Also, as a side note, he goes to his dad's every other weekend and once a week in the evening. It is largely fun-fun-fun over there. In fact he does all of his homework at home before he goes so they can "hang out". I wonder how much effect this has as I am the bad guy becuase we have chores. I don't necessarily blame his dad becuase the time he does have with them he wants to actually be with them. But it sets up this unrealistic idea that at dad's it's better because he doesn't have to do chores.

I dont' know.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I hate chores and if you offered me an out I'd take it







.

I don't rule with a rod of iron and our house is by no means ***** and span but there is an expectation of everyone that some jobs just need to be done and I can't (or won't because my life is too short







) do them all so everyone does a bit of everything and it all gets done less painfully.

We have talked about this since they were little so it's largely a non-issue now. For us the choice is about when and how to do something or trade one job for another perhaps: not to choose not to do it at all.

Do you talk about teamwork, responsibility and kindness to eachother as well as respect?


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

In our house we do not have set chores ... I also will just ask when I need something done. But if said askee does not wish to do said task ... oh well. But if you have things that you must have done, I wonder if your ds would benefit from set duties? - Ds empties the dishwasher every day at 4 -


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anasmommy* 
Thanks for the input ladies.
Yesterday we had another run in it went something like this...
"what are you doing?"
"I am resting, I am tired from school"
"It you choose not to do the dishes, you will choose to be in your room for the rest of the evening"
"I don't care"
"I'm really disappointed with your choice and if you choose not to do what you are asked again, some of your privledges will have to disappear."


You come at this from the line of thinking that says "I am the adult and you must do what I say. If you don't do what I say, I will punish you." He told you a variety of things in this exchange, but you didn't really hear them (or you _heard_ them, but you didn't _listen_. There's a difference







)

Here's what you know:

1. You want him to do the dishes
2. He doesn't want to do them

I might have said:
_"I feel like it's important for all of us to pitch in around the house because we all live here. What do you think about that?"

"I sometimes feel that you are passing on a lot of chores/jobs that need to be done. I hear that you are tired, and I want to respect that. I am often tired too. I think working together helps keep the load less heavy for any one person in our family. Do you feel that way or ? "

"What would be helpful to me is if we could talk about working around the house openly, and find something that works for both of us."

"Okay, a rest is fine. After your rest could you deal with the dishes?"_

Maybe there are specific times that aren't so great for him. Like if you asked me to dust in the morning (or do anything other than breathe and drink coffee lol) I'm not going to be into that.







Maybe right after school is not the time for him.

Quote:

dh did the dishes and ds was in his room for the evening.

What am I doing wrong?
I really made a concerted effort to be nice and to be firm.
I guess maybe he is just testing me. I am going to take him out tonight and talk with him one on one as long as there are no run-ins. I am going to specifically ask him to give me examples of me being disrespectful to him.
What do you feel was accomplished by making him stay in his room all night? (Not trying to be snarky at you. I am genuinely asking.) Do you feel like he learned anything about you or your thoughts on him and work around the house? Or do you think it just sets up more resentment and apathy? The punishment, IMO, only does the latter.

I think it's a great idea to go out and talk. I hope some good stuff happens for you guys!


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## Halfasianmomma (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anasmommy* 
Thanks for the input ladies.
Yesterday we had another run in it went something like this...
"I need you to put the dishes in the dishwasher before you go back on the computer"
"Why do I have to do it? Mia should do it when she gets home from gymnastics"
"I will give your sister another chore when she gets home but I need you to do the dishes so I can make dinner"
(Headshake, mumbling under breath) walks past me and lays on the couch.
"what are you doing?"
"I am resting, I am tired from school"
"It you choose not to do the dishes, you will choose to be in your room for the rest of the evening"
"I don't care"
"I'm really disappointed with your choice and if you choose not to do what you are asked again, some of your privledges will have to disappear."

What am I doing wrong?
I really made a concerted effort to be nice and to be firm.

IMO, you *are* being too nice. You're trying to be friends with him, when it's time to enforce some hard truths about family. In this instance, he totally got out of doing what he didn't want to do, AND he got to stay in his nice comfy room so he didn't have to deal with you.

How about asking him to swap?
"Please put away the dishes"
"I don't wanna"
"Well I don't want to make dinner, but I have to. Life sucks that way. Want to switch? You make food and I'll clean up."
See what happens....

I offered that possibility to DSS and even though he's 10, he took it, because he hates doing the dishes THAT MUCH. He's learning how to cook AND learning that there are things in life that, though they suck, have to be done. Going to work sucks. Homework sucks. Cleaning the house sucks. Paying bills suck. What are you going to do about it? You just do it.

Your family is a cooperative of sorts, bringing together people of different skill set and abilities; you all contribute in one way or another to the proper functioning of the household. You also love each other and try to do nice things for one another. He's got to learn this. If he wants to treat your family like a boarding house where he comes and goes as he pleases, then he can start paying rent. Harsh but realistic.

An alternative:
He doesn't want to do dishes. Whenever he uses a dish and leaves it dirty, stick it on his bed. Don't wash any of his clothing. Don't give him any of the dinners you make. I give it a week or two, and then he'll start contributing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anasmommy* 
I guess maybe he is just testing me. I am going to take him out tonight and talk with him one on one as long as there are no run-ins. I am going to specifically ask him to give me examples of me being disrespectful to him.

Of course he's testing you, especially since his dad is Mr. I'm So Fun, you get to be the nag. He's trying to see how much of an ass he can be before you pop. The whole "disrepect" thing is just the latest catch phrase he learned that makes him feel empowered and gives him the opportunity to grate on your nerves...teens LOVE that!

DSS used to compare our house with his mother's (where he doesn't have to do a thing, and once dinner is done, he can throw his fork down on his plate, stand up, burp, and walk away to go play video games







). We eventually got him to see that although mom's house is fun, it's ALWAYS a free for all, everything is misplaced, lost and late, and no one cares. After a while, he decided he'd much rather live with DH and me, even though we're strict, because his life is more peaceful.

Don't let up; good luck!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

"It you choose not to do the dishes, you will choose to be in your room for the rest of the evening"
"I don't care"
"I'm really disappointed with your choice and if you choose not to do what you are asked again, some of your privledges will have to disappear."
The choices you are giving him are not real choices, do not entail any real power, and he knows that. If you gave me these choices, I would feel disrespected.

A real choice would look like this:

_"I need to start dinner at 5:00. Can we make a plan for what time you will wash the dishes, so that I have a clear space to work in when I go in there to cook?_

Or, _"The dishes have to be done by 5:00 so that I can cook. What time will you get started?"_


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Halfasianmomma* 
IMO, you *are* being too nice. You're trying to be friends with him, when it's time to enforce some hard truths about family. In this instance, he totally got out of doing what he didn't want to do, AND he got to stay in his nice comfy room so he didn't have to deal with you.

How about asking him to swap?
"Please put away the dishes"
"I don't wanna"
"Well I don't want to make dinner, but I have to. Life sucks that way. Want to switch? You make food and I'll clean up."
See what happens....

I offered that possibility to DSS and even though he's 10, he took it, because he hates doing the dishes THAT MUCH. He's learning how to cook AND learning that there are things in life that, though they suck, have to be done. Going to work sucks. Homework sucks. Cleaning the house sucks. Paying bills suck. What are you going to do about it? You just do it.

Your family is a cooperative of sorts, bringing together people of different skill set and abilities; you all contribute in one way or another to the proper functioning of the household. You also love each other and try to do nice things for one another. He's got to learn this. If he wants to treat your family like a boarding house where he comes and goes as he pleases, then he can start paying rent. Harsh but realistic.

An alternative:
He doesn't want to do dishes. Whenever he uses a dish and leaves it dirty, stick it on his bed. Don't wash any of his clothing. Don't give him any of the dinners you make. I give it a week or two, and then he'll start contributing.

Of course he's testing you, especially since his dad is Mr. I'm So Fun, you get to be the nag. He's trying to see how much of an ass he can be before you pop. The whole "disrepect" thing is just the latest catch phrase he learned that makes him feel empowered and gives him the opportunity to grate on your nerves...teens LOVE that!

DSS used to compare our house with his mother's (where he doesn't have to do a thing, and once dinner is done, he can throw his fork down on his plate, stand up, burp, and walk away to go play video games







). We eventually got him to see that although mom's house is fun, it's ALWAYS a free for all, everything is misplaced, lost and late, and no one cares. After a while, he decided he'd much rather live with DH and me, even though we're strict, because his life is more peaceful.

Don't let up; good luck!

Your post is contradictory. You say that a family is a cooperative and yet you give examples of dealing with these issues that will result in the total opposite of cooperation. Leaving dirty dishes in their room or refusing to wash their clothes only proves that parents can act even more childish than their so called children.

It certainly isn't a good example of modeling the kind of behavior and attitude you want to get from your child. It;s the equivalent of "teaching" a child to not bite by biting them back.

Your post also shows a total lack of respect for teens.


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## Halfasianmomma (Nov 1, 2007)

Different strokes for different folks. If we all agreed, life would be boring









I didn't propose to implement both solutions at once or closely followed. I'd start with a negotiation of some kind based on the premise that a) dinner needs to be made and b) dishes need to be done, or at least organized/gotten out of the way/put in a corner somewhere to be dealt with later. That's the reality. The reality is when the dishes are dirty, they need to be washed; the reality isn't that when your dishes are dirty you go to your room and someone else does them for you. There are obviously alternative to how one deals with that reality. Maybe mother and son can take a 20 minute break together and chill, and THEN get stuff done, or maybe son can do dishes as soon as he gets home so it's done already, or maybe they can all agree to have toast and jam for dinner that night and to deal with the kitchen tomorrow...something can be worked out. But the main idea is that everyone's got to do something for the household to function and for needs to be met.

The hard-core alternative is just that: an alternative when all else fails. When any member of the household slacks off or stops functioning altogether, things fall apart and everyone suffers for it. If that person slacks off temporarily due to illness or whatnot, everyone else picsk up the slack for while. If child/teen/adult repeatedly refuses to function as a contributing member of a family, then that person can deal with the consequences of their decision. If you give nothing, you get nothing in return AND there are unpleasant consequences to deal with.

This is how my family functions and everyone, precocious-teen included, feels respected and heard. IMO it is disrespectful to one's child to teach him/her that reality isn't something other than it isn't; when they grow up, life isn't going to be nice and let them off easy.

But as I said, to each his own


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Actually at MDC it's not to each their own. The UA outlines that this website upholds certain parenting practices and philosophies.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Halfasianmomma* 
An alternative:
He doesn't want to do dishes. Whenever he uses a dish and leaves it dirty, stick it on his bed. Don't wash any of his clothing. Don't give him any of the dinners you make. I give it a week or two, and then he'll start contributing.

I find this approach to be anything but respectful. I would be extremely sad and frustrated if someone I loved/was supposed to love me treated me this way. Any "lesson" or message would likely be lost in the resentment I would feel. The golden rule comes to mind for me here. If I wouldn't want it done to me, I probably shouldn't be doing it to someone else.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I can't even imagine refusing to give a child meals I cooked. As far as I'm concerned that is abusive.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I think that sometimes kids don't really get how their behavior or lack of assistance impacts others. At least in my experience, talking about it doesn't always help them understand. Action does. And I think you can take action without being mean or revengeful about it.

For example, my 13 year old used to hoard her dirty laundry and then dump several loads into the hamper and expect them to be done the next day. I politely explained to her why this wasn't possible several times, but she continued to do it and then be angry with me when the shirt she wanted wasn't clean.

Finally, I gathered all her dirty laundry from the hampers and it put it in a basket on her bed. I left a nice note that said, "Desta, I can't get all this done in one day. After school I'll show you how to do a load of laundry. Love, Momma."

She didn't want to learn to do laundry, but I showed her anyway. I then told her that I am happy to wash her stuff for her if she puts her dirty clothes in the hamper on a daily basis, but if she hides them under her bed until she's out of clothes, she has to wash them herself.

Sometimes she hoards her clothes and has to wash them herself. She gets annoyed, but I stay out of it. She knows the drill now.

I'm also a big fan of the "After you do this, I can do this" line. For example, Desta will suggest something for dinner and I'll say, "Sure. After you unload the dishwasher (her chore anyway), I can reload it with the dirty stuff and then I will have enough room to make dinner." A few times she wandered off and didn't unload the dishwasher. We had peanut butter and jelly for dinner. She knows the drill now.

I try to stay pleasant and action-oriented. My daughter has some cognitive deficits that make it very hard for her to understand things unless they are extremely concrete. I make sure that my "consequences" are not just me trying to show her who is boss but that they spread some of the burden to her, because, honestly, if she doesn't feel the pain, so to speak, she's not moved to action.

I think that there are plenty of kids (people) who are like that ... my dh is one of them. I jokingly tell him, "If it's not a problem for you, it's not a problem!" Verbal processing is not his strong point. Telling him about it doesn't sink it. Letting him experience a bit of my situation does.

Blah blah blah. Anyway, in the OP's situation, I would have said, "Ok, after you unload the dishwasher, I can start dinner. You can choose to rest before or after you unload." If he didn't unload, I'd have served something simple that didn't require clean dishes or counter space to prepare. That's the reality ... no clean dishes, no counter space = no way to prepare a nice meal.

dm


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I find this approach to be anything but respectful. I would be extremely sad and frustrated if someone I loved/was supposed to love me treated me this way. Any "lesson" or message would likely be lost in the resentment I would feel. The golden rule comes to mind for me here. If I wouldn't want it done to me, I probably shouldn't be doing it to someone else.

Yeah, buuuuuut...







If we're talking golden rule here, it wasn't right for him to ignore what was asked of him. Seriously, how many things a day do our kids ask of us? And mostly we comply, cheerfully even. I agree with your point, but it's a two way street, yk?

Ok, so I've had that same conversation. More than once. If I'm not in a great mood my response is usually, "Yeah, I'm tired too. I don't feel like cooking dinner, doing your laundry, helping you with xyz and yadda yadda. So I'm going to go _insert some random thing here_. I guess when you're hungry you can go make yourself a sandwich." Then I go about my business. Nine times out of ten, the job gets done and they sheepishly come apologize. If they end up having a sandwich once out of ten times, so what? Nobody melted down and eventually the job gets done anyway, on their terms, no fuss, no tears.

The other response is "Yeah, I'm tired too...etc. Why don't you come with me so we can knock this out together? Then we can go do _____."

It is extremely rare that I get a flat out refusal. Whining, yes, I do get that, but it's usually good natured. We aren't perfect, by a long shot, but I've found that making them aware that mom is a person too has gone a long way in smoothing out the wrinkles in our everyday life.


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## anasmommy (Oct 24, 2007)

I love the lively debate. I don't want to be childish and not do anything for him, that is saying if you don't do what I want then I will do something worse for you.
I do understand that I am coming from a position of power when I say that I am going to punish him. But sometimes I feel like you have to do that. That is why children have parents, to expidite the natural consequences, before they are in the situation where it will really hurt them.
I don't feel like I can just say okay dinner doesn't get made becuase there are other members of the family who need more than a sandwich to eat and I am 100% sure he would be cool with not eating anything at all (which he can't do, he's type I diabetic) or eating a sandwich everyday for the rest of his life. I don't think he should have the choice on whether or not he does it. I really don't.
Anyway, this is what happened.
I took him to Target. He was quiet. I asked for a truce. I asked him to tell me about what is disrespectful, he said that I get a tone with him when he doesn't do what i asked. I told him that I was sorry, that our family runs on a schedule, I tried to get him to see that I have a ton of responsibilities in the short evening. It is stressful. He understood. I told him I would try to not get a tone. I asked him what I should do if he doesn't do what I need him to do. He said he didn't know. I told him that was precisely the problem.
We didn't really solve any problem, just maybe had a moment of understanding.
I think over break I will try to see what we can do to set a schedule of chores, maybe empty it at night before bed.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

I think it's possible that your son felt that your reassigning of his sister's chore to him simply because she wasn't home was unfair. I would have felt that way too, if I were a kid. Maybe that part of the exchange was the seed of the problem?

And PS, I'm really shocked at all the "life's a bitch so get used to it, kid!" attitudes displayed here. First of all, I don't teach my kids that they have to "obey" me or anything else - we get along and work together because of a give-and-take of mutual love and respect, not because I'm the boss. And seriously - your home is supposed to be your safe haven, not the place where your parents "toughen you up" to instill some vague concept of "maturity." What if they grow up and never do the dishes? Then I guess they'll be eating a lot of take out.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I fully respect your ability to assert whatever degree of authority and control in your household that you see fit. Its totally your choice.

But for the sake of argument....

Quote:

That is why children have parents, to expidite the natural consequences, before they are in the situation where it will really hurt them.
I disagree. I think children have parents in order to receive nurturing and protection when they are vulnerable. And I think that children have parents so that they have a model for what it means to be human, to live as a member of a family and community, to love and to be loved.

And I guess finally, not washing the dishes does not create a situation that is likely to hurt him.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I think it's possible that your son felt that your reassigning of his sister's chore to him simply because she wasn't home was unfair. I would have felt that way too, if I were a kid. Maybe that part of the exchange was the seed of the problem?

And PS, I'm really shocked at all the "life's a bitch so get used to it, kid!" attitudes displayed here. First of all, I don't teach my kids that they have to "obey" me or anything else - we get along and work together because of a give-and-take of mutual love and respect, not because I'm the boss. And seriously - your home is supposed to be your safe haven, not the place where your parents "toughen you up" to instill some vague concept of "maturity." What if they grow up and never do the dishes? Then I guess they'll be eating a lot of take out.

exactly


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## anasmommy (Oct 24, 2007)

I also agree mamduck. (I don't know how to do the quote thing). I believe another reason why children have parents is to protect, nurture, etc. But for the sake of arguement, all of us do things every day that we don't want to do, including dishes, work, etc. How were you taught to do those things? Self-discipline comes from a parent disciplining you, and by that I do not mean physically or even by taking things away. I mean by creating an atmosphere where you feel pressure to do things. And hopefully that pressure becomes internalized as adults.
I went to the peditrician with my older dd over the summer, the dr. asked her what chores she has, she listed hers, I asked the dr. why she asked and she said that studies have found that kids who do chores and help out their families are most successful in school and as adults. DUH!!! How was this lost?
Not doing the dishes unduely creates a burden on other members of the family. I truely believe that all members of our family have to pitch in.
I am a teacher and I can tell you from lots of years of doing that and talking to middle school and high school kids that the kids whose parents make them, (emphasis on make) do things are the kids who are getting good grades, paying attention, etc. In fact a friend and I used to ask the kids in the beginning of the year to raise their hands if their parents make them do chores and those are the kids who end up doing well.I have talked to lots of kids who tell me they just ignore their parents and manipulate their way out of doing things.
I mean what happens to those families where everything is messy, dirty, lost and disorganized? How many children do you know who don't have to do a single chore? My children tell me all the time that they are the only kids they know who do anything around thier house! How is that possible? I know that it is possible because I talk to a lot of kids about it.
I don't think my son is doing that necessarily, but I think if I was to say to my family, Okay, I am not doing laundry any more, I don't feel like it and everyone was like, okay, we can't force you. I would do it becuase I felt a sense of duty to my famiy. That is something that has to be modeled. My issue that I came here with is, how do you do that with out punishing? I feel like it's not proper parenting to allow a child to not take on thier duties in a family, for their own sake and for the sake of the rest of the family.
Did you not push when you were a teenager? Try to get out of things you didn't want to do?
I can tell you that my mother was a single mom of 6 kids and never made any of us do anything around the house. I was surrounded with filth and it was a very horrible experience for me. I left her house not knowing how to clean a bathroom, make food or do laundry. That is not proper parenting. Making kids do chores for themselves creates self-esteem and self-sufficient adults.

This is a sensitive issue for me I guess. I am conflicted about it, as I am sure you can tell.

dh is a stricter parent who says "who care if they are mad at you, they will thank you some day" I tend to try to explain and come to a compromise. Where is the line?

holy novel...sorry


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I was punished severely over chores, actually. I was spanked if the floor was not adequately swept. By the time I was 10 I was cleaning the whole house. Same with my brothers. Yes, I did well in school and have a lot of self-discipline. Neither of my brothers do. Neither of them went to college, neither of them seem quite able to pull their lives together as adults. There are, of course, a lot of other factors to consider. Which is true of all those kids you knew, and the kids in the studies -- there are a lot of factors to consider. Parents who ask kids to do chores are likely to spend more time with their kids, have different values about education, etc... there are so many variables.

Kids don't neccessarily internalize a sense of self-discipline as a result of consequences imposed by adults. Consequences imposed by adults are a type of external control. Internal control is a much more difficult thing to teach -- and with some temperments, external control actually inhibits the development of internal control. (eg. -- kids who do the right thing when mom is looking, but not when they are alone.)

Kids internalize a sense of self-discipline by seeing it modeled (and choosing to imitate) and by experiencing natural consequences (different than punishment.) Indeed, I think when kids DO become very disciplined and successful in relation to being punished, it is often a tainted, uncomfortable sort of self-discipline. Perfectionism, a sense of inadequacy, a sense of never being good enough -- these are the sorts of feelings that accompany "success" when it comes at the price of innordinate pressure and manipulation from our parents. Its probably not worth it.

The other thing I'm thinking is this: Your kid is on the old side of childhood! The most important things about self-discipline and family responsibility are already instilled (or not.) Being a teenager is a phase, and it comes hand in hand with a lot of feelings and attitudes that, in the grand scheme of things, are fleeting. I suspect that a lot of what you are living through is not so much about setting life-long patterns, as much as they are about gritting your teeth and getting through with your relationship in tact, kwim?

My oldest child is only 11, so I'm not sure how I'll feel when he is 14. I do ask my kids to do chores and help out, and for the most part they do. I have never punished over chores, but I have been firm in my own way from time to time. For instance, "_I can't vacuum your room because of the mess on the floor. Do you need help getting organized or can you manage it on your own? On your own? Good. My next question is when??? Can you give me a time and stick to it, please?"_ Another recent conversations, "_Your laundry time is Saturday mornings. I've noticed that you are not doing it at that time. I honestly can't think of another time that you could easily manage it. Can you? If you have another idea, I'm ready to hear it. But otherwise, you need to get on top of it or else you will have nothing to wear to school on Monday."_

Regarding family chores, like the dishes, _"I need some help! Can you boys come please and empty the dishwasher while I start dinner?_" If they refuse, they have a grouchy and overwhelmed mother. They don't usually refuse though. Maybe we just aren't there yet??

I dunno. I have so carefully avoided power struggles and punishments, and I have such nice carefully nurture relationships with my kids -- I think that if chores became an ongoing problem -- I would have a sit down with them and try to make a plan that would make everyone happy, but I would avoid making it a battle at all costs, kwim?

Oh jeez. Now who's writing a novel? It is an interesting conversation -- thank you for indulging me!


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anasmommy* 
My issue that I came here with is, how do you do that with out punishing? I feel like it's not proper parenting to allow a child to not take on thier duties in a family, for their own sake and for the sake of the rest of the family.

Honestly? Through negotiation.

Does your own experience lead you to think that a lack of order is a sign of weakness and that you have to _do_ something to make your son do things? You write about pressure and discipline but this is all coming from you. What is coming from him? Do you talk together about what needs to be done to keep the house in some kind of order? Has he expressed a preference for certain tasks? Is he good at some things and less good at others? What about asking him to help you do X so that it is done quickly?

My mum has a very tidy house and everything is neat and tidy. She doesn't have dirty clothes on her bedroom floor and her kitchen counters are always clear and clean. As a child she encouraged me to help her keep things tidy but my sister and I had only 2 formal jobs to do - lay the table with plates and lay the table with cutlery which we did alternately. Everything else we did alongside our parents or under their guidance, not on a rota or under pressure.

My house is much less clean and tidy than hers but I have four children where my mum had only two; I have had times when I have worked outside the home and now I do significant amounts of work for our business at home as well as homeschooling our 5yo and still regularly bf a toddler. I cook from scratch every day as she did and am thrifty and crafty like she is but I am in a very different situation to my mum and I am also of a very different disposition. I hate cleaning, I am rubbish at cleaning up after myself when cooking and I constantly struggle with the laundry processing. Friends who know me well joke that when my children leave home I will have lost my only believeable excuse for my own untidyness









So I had a 5star role model but I am still untidy. I was a straight A student at school and am still pretty good when I do assignments for uni







I am also a Virgo a sign known for neat-freakery so what went wrong?

My children do jobs alongside me and they all have preferences for certain things. Ds1 will absolutely not put compost out into the compost bin becuause he thinks it is disgusting but he will happily sort laundry or hang out wet clothes on the line or hoover the upstairs rooms. We don't have a dishwasher but we try to rinse our plates and bowls straight away so that there isn't a great pile of dishes for one person to wash as well as all the pans at the end of the day.

I don't have to discipline anyone to do things around the house and I don't need to punish anyone either.

If you think about how you can work together you may find that you have to do less to get jobs done.

and this

Quote:

I suspect that a lot of what you are living through is not so much about setting life-long patterns, as much as they are about gritting your teeth and getting through with your relationship in tact, kwim?
Sorting out how to do dirty dishes is not going to be the biggest test of your relationship with your son but it could be the model of how you deal with other issues.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

FWIW - if he was tired, and this is an unusual occurrence - I would let him skip out on the dishes. Heck, if I am am really tired, I postpone chores as well









Now, if this is not an unusual occurance, a think a rehashing of "we are a family and jointly responsible for getting the work done" discussion is in order.

I think the discussion could have gone more like this:
"please do the dishes"
"I am tired"
"OK, lets skip them this time, we will catch up later"

or

"You have been tired a lot lately. Maybe your scheduel needs tweaking so you can have the energy necessary to help out in the house a bit".

Good luck!

Kathy


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Being a teenager is a phase, and it comes hand in hand with a lot of feelings and attitudes that, in the grand scheme of things, are fleeting.

That's true, but I also am unwilling to live with someone who doesn't help out around the house just because they are in a phase ... which is why I try to spread the burden to everyone and let everyone feel the pinch a bit when they don't help out.

dm


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anasmommy* 
I mean by creating an atmosphere where you feel pressure to do things. And hopefully that pressure becomes internalized as adults.

 We have not gone this "pressure" route at all. Sometimes I get overwhelmed- just as everyone can here and there. I will say that I am feeling overwhelmed and we go from there. The kids do to. I don't think I need to create pressure. It happens on it's own often enough just as a product of life LOL.









Quote:

I asked the dr. why she asked and she said that studies have found that kids who do chores and help out their families are most successful in school and as adults. DUH!!! How was this lost?
We do not have set chores for our family members. For some families that approach may work well, and folks should definitely go with what is working for them. For us it's never really been all that helpful. Somehow, years ago, my kids decided that Ds was the garbage taker outer and that Dd was the recycling taker outer. I help both of them though if the need it, and more than once someone forgets and someone else will do it without fanfare. I don't really think my kids' success in education or future working will depend on chores right now. Then again we don't attend school so I could be the wrong one to ask.

Quote:

I truely believe that all members of our family have to pitch in.
 Absolutely. I think it's a good route to go for sure. I also think that it's not always going to look the same from day to day or month to month- or that the pitching in will not always be perfectly equal. Sometimes people are sick, tired, rushed for something, taking a long awaited or suprise call, have an unexpected errand come up, have an increased work load at school or job, and etc. Things shift.

Quote:

I can tell you from lots of years of doing that and talking to middle school and high school kids that the kids whose parents make them, (emphasis on make) do things are the kids who are getting good grades, paying attention, etc.
 We don't care about grades overall other than what the kids want any grade to do for them personally. Why do you want or need a good grade? What is your goal, and what do you need or want this grade to do for you? Those are things I'd be talking about. And how are they being "made" to do them? What's the process? I'm not really interested in doling out punishments and bribes to get chores done or grades high.

Quote:

How many children do you know who don't have to do a single chore? My children tell me all the time that they are the only kids they know who do anything around thier house! How is that possible? I know that it is possible because I talk to a lot of kids about it.
 My children do not have any chores that they are forced to do. Not a single one. They do lots of things though. They take out garbage and recycling, check mail, sweep, load and unload the dishwasher, take laundry upstairs, etc. In our experience most of the kids we know that don't want to do anything around their homes, or who try to get around it or out of it are the ones who are forced and punished.

Quote:

I tend to try to explain and come to a compromise. Where is the line?

holy novel...sorry









The novel length posts can be so theraputic!







It can feel so frustrating sometimes to come to a common good place with someone else, especially kids. I think explaining, talking, modeling, and so on are the thing. It's always felt better and more right to me than punishing and fighting and yelling, and I don't think it means you have to be waiting on someone hand and foot either.


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## saimeiyu (Aug 13, 2007)

I have this same problem w/ my 17 y/o little brother, sometimes... (he lives w/me and dh)... I find that sometimes the best approach can be rather "harsh" as others have called it, that being, "You help out with the family or you pay rent, or you leave. This isn't a house for freeloaders."

I think a parent's job is to teach their children how to be a responsible well balanced adult, and hopefully one who has their priorities straight. That takes love and hard work, but it's not always the kind of love that is nice. I really believe that sometimes you just have to use tough love.

That doesn't mean you have to be mean about it, of course, but you do have to be tough...

For a teenager, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with telling them they can help with the dishes or get thier own dinner. There's always enough food in my house that they won't starve.

Of course, in a situation like the one mentioned, I'd either give the kid the choice for me to do the dishes, and he can make dinner, or I'd tell him that he can do the dishes BEFORE i make dinner, and have less to clean up, or AFTER I make dinner, and there's more.

some of the comments I saw reading this thread are *really* judgemental. Dude. chill. And while this forum advocates certain types of parenting, first off, it doesn't mandate it, and second, it also requires respect. Someone asks for advice, you don't bash.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I frequently feel that people at MDC advocate the idea of "If a kid doesn't want to help out, just do it yourself, because eventually the kid will help out, or the kid helps out in other ways." I've seen people say, "No child never does ANYTHING to help out."

I guess I fundamentally disagree with that approach. I feel like, Why should I _routinely_ do things for my kids just because they don't feel like it? Why should my life be about taking care of my responsibilities AND those of my kids just because they don't want to? I don't want to, either! Of course I help my kids out if someone is sick, or rushed, or there is an unusual circumstance, but for the most part, I expect my kids to do what they are capable of and I don't do it for them just because they'd rather not.

For example, yesterday Desta slept really late. I didn't. I got up at normal time so I could get a bunch of stuff ready to go for brunch for my mother's birthday. Desta got up and got dressed and had breakfast, and then I asked her to please remove her laundry from the line so that I could hang the wet stuff from the washer. She launched into this diatribe about how this is her vacation and why should she have to spend it doing chores and she doesn't get to do anything she wants, etc.

I'm sure some here would say, "Well, be a pal and help your daughter out. How long does it really take to take down her laundry?" True, but why does my burden increase just because she thinks her vacation should be about hanging out and not helping out? What about my vacation? (Ha ha) I was on a tight timeline.

What I said to her was, "You did exactly what you wanted for three hours this morning. You slept late. I did all the work to make it possible for us to go out to eat with Grandma this morning. I'm happy to do that, but I don't have enough time to do my tasks as well as yours. I didn't do Efram's and Ramona's tasks, either."

I don't even view taking down and folding laundry as a "chore." It's what you do if you want clean, wrinkle-free clothes, which clearly she does because she washed them and hung them up. Desta was fed a bill of goods in Ethiopia about how she would have servants to attend to her in America and how no one here has to work. I know it honks her off that life in America isn't what she expected it to be. But I don't excuse her from helping just because she'd rather not or because she didn't think she'd have to. In the orphanage, she did chores to help the orphanage run smoothly. In our home, she does chores to help the home run smoothly. I simply can't do it all, and I don't have time to wait for her to decide that she's willing to help out. The house needs to run right now, not when Desta decides to get over her snit about not having a servant (that snit has been running for 19 months and counting).

I don't know, I guess what I am trying to say is that I see a lot of people here talk about how kids shouldn't be required/"forced" to help, and then they just take a great majority of the work on themselves. I suppose it's just a different worldview.

dm


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
I frequently feel that people at MDC advocate the idea of "If a kid doesn't want to help out, just do it yourself, because eventually the kid will help out, or the kid helps out in other ways." I've seen people say, "No child never does ANYTHING to help out."

I guess I fundamentally disagree with that approach. I feel like, Why should I _routinely_ do things for my kids just because they don't feel like it? Why should my life be about taking care of my responsibilities AND those of my kids just because they don't want to? I don't want to, either! Of course I help my kids out if someone is sick, or rushed, or there is an unusual circumstance, but for the most part, I expect my kids to do what they are capable of and I don't do it for them just because they'd rather not.

For example, yesterday Desta slept really late. I didn't. I got up at normal time so I could get a bunch of stuff ready to go for brunch for my mother's birthday. Desta got up and got dressed and had breakfast, and then I asked her to please remove her laundry from the line so that I could hang the wet stuff from the washer. She launched into this diatribe about how this is her vacation and why should she have to spend it doing chores and she doesn't get to do anything she wants, etc.

I'm sure some here would say, "Well, be a pal and help your daughter out. How long does it really take to take down her laundry?" True, but why does my burden increase just because she thinks her vacation should be about hanging out and not helping out? What about my vacation? (Ha ha) I was on a tight timeline.

What I said to her was, "You did exactly what you wanted for three hours this morning. You slept late. I did all the work to make it possible for us to go out to eat with Grandma this morning. I'm happy to do that, but I don't have enough time to do my tasks as well as yours. I didn't do Efram's and Ramona's tasks, either."

I don't even view taking down and folding laundry as a "chore." It's what you do if you want clean, wrinkle-free clothes, which clearly she does because she washed them and hung them up. Desta was fed a bill of goods in Ethiopia about how she would have servants to attend to her in America and how no one here has to work. I know it honks her off that life in America isn't what she expected it to be. But I don't excuse her from helping just because she'd rather not or because she didn't think she'd have to. In the orphanage, she did chores to help the orphanage run smoothly. In our home, she does chores to help the home run smoothly. I simply can't do it all, and I don't have time to wait for her to decide that she's willing to help out. The house needs to run right now, not when Desta decides to get over her snit about not having a servant (that snit has been running for 19 months and counting).

*I don't know, I guess what I am trying to say is that I see a lot of people here talk about how kids shouldn't be required/"forced" to help, and then they just take a great majority of the work on themselves. I suppose it's just a different worldview.*

dm


I agree with your whole post. I also have gotten the "kids shouldn't do anything" crap from my SIL whose kids do absolutely not one chore or clean up after themselves. I mean, hey, my kids are not servants, but isn't part of raising kids, teaching them to become independent. Part of being an independent adult is learning how to clean up after yourself and take care of your belongings and home.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
The more hormones my son gets the more careful I am getting. I think his developing minds and body has made him very "distractable". I found that eye contact, touch, et is more important when I get his attention.

I agree. I don't have a teen just yet, but almost and he is very difficult the older he gets and the more the hormones kick in.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
My children do not have any chores that they are forced to do. Not a single one. They do lots of things though. They take out garbage and recycling, check mail, sweep, load and unload the dishwasher, take laundry upstairs, etc. In our experience most of the kids we know that don't want to do anything around their homes, or who try to get around it or out of it are the ones who are forced and punished.

This is more or less what I see too.

There is a story in Contiuum Concept that I always think of when I'm in a disscussion about chores.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't know, I guess what I am trying to say is that I see a lot of people here talk about how kids shouldn't be required/"forced" to help, and then they just take a great majority of the work on themselves.

Eh? I'm not sure I see this being said here. What I read is just that there are certain lengths that some of us would NOT go to in order to "force" chores on our kids. Actually, I'm pretty sure that is true of *everyone* on this thread - there are certain lengths YOU would not go to either -- I know that you wouldn't beat Desta, right? I think we just draw the line at different places. And maybe not so far apart as you think either. This, for example:

Quote:

What I said to her was, "You did exactly what you wanted for three hours this morning. You slept late. I did all the work to make it possible for us to go out to eat with Grandma this morning. I'm happy to do that, but I don't have enough time to do my tasks as well as yours. I didn't do Efram's and Ramona's tasks, either."
_Absolutely_ something I would say to my child! Completely appropriate, relevent, and truthful. You are not threatening arbitrary consequences.... you are stating how it is and how you feel, and making your expectations clear. I have NO problem with that.

But do you see how that is different from, "Do the dishes or go to your room!" ? Not that I think thats the end of the world either -- but which line of persuasion would you feel most respected on the other end of?


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

With my 12.5 year old, I say "I need your help in here - can you put the dishes away (or dust or vacuum or whatever), please?" And he does. We've always approached it as a team effort. If he doesn't want to, I ask why, and if it seems like he has, for lack of a better term, a "legitimate" reason - being very tired, not feeling well, et cetera, I let it go. If it's just "I want to watch the rest of this Simpsons episode," then I ask him to do it when his show is over or whatever. It's not hard to treat kids with respect as long as you don't get all worked up over showing who is "boss" here and flexing your parental muscles. If my kid was consistently ignoring me, disrespectful, refusing to help, then I would consider my problem deeper than just how much he does or doesn't help around the house, and seek the root cause.

But do this NOW because I said so? No.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Halfasianmomma* 
IMO, you *are* being too nice. You're trying to be friends with him, when it's time to enforce some hard truths about family. In this instance, he totally got out of doing what he didn't want to do, AND he got to stay in his nice comfy room so he didn't have to deal with you.
...

I offered that possibility to DSS and even though he's 10, he took it, because he hates doing the dishes THAT MUCH. He's learning how to cook AND learning that there are things in life that, though they suck, have to be done. Going to work sucks. Homework sucks. Cleaning the house sucks. Paying bills suck. What are you going to do about it? You just do it.
...

An alternative:
He doesn't want to do dishes. Whenever he uses a dish and leaves it dirty, stick it on his bed. Don't wash any of his clothing. Don't give him any of the dinners you make. I give it a week or two, and then he'll start contributing.

...

Don't let up; good luck!


I agree with all of the above.... in fact, i may take some of this advice myself


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
_Absolutely_ something I would say to my child! Completely appropriate, relevent, and truthful. You are not threatening arbitrary consequences.... you are stating how it is and how you feel, and making your expectations clear. I have NO problem with that.

But do you see how that is different from, "Do the dishes or go to your room!" ? Not that I think thats the end of the world either -- but which line of persuasion would you feel most respected on the other end of?

I guess the difference is that, had Desta listened to me and then not done what I'd asked, there would have been consequences, such as not getting to watch the movie she brought from the library if I ended up having to do it or even not leaving for brunch until it was done. I wouldn't have just let her choose not to do it with no repercussions other than having an unhappy mom.

dm


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
I guess the difference is that, had Desta listened to me and then not done what I'd asked, there would have been consequences, such as not getting to watch the movie she brought from the library if I ended up having to do it or even not leaving for brunch until it was done. I wouldn't have just let her choose not to do it with no repercussions other than having an unhappy mom.

But Desta isn't a typical thirteen year old, and what Desta needs isn't necessarily what children who aren't in her specific situation need. With my securely attached teen, punishing her for not folding her laundry when I asked her to would backfire - she would feel that I wasn't respecting her need for some time off and was turning a 5 minute job into a power play. I can accept that for your child, that isn't the situation, but that would be the situation here.

There have been periods when Rain did very little to help (especially when she was 12), but they passed... and trusting that they would pass made them easier to deal with.

Dar


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
But Desta isn't a typical thirteen year old

Who is, really? Every situation has unique and extenuating circumstances.

Quote:

There have been periods when Rain did very little to help (especially when she was 12), but they passed... and trusting that they would pass made them easier to deal with.
I guess we differ in how much of the load we are willing to shoulder. I am unwilling to _routinely_ carry the load for my kids just because they "don't want to," or are in a phase or whatever, and I am willing to give unpleasant consequences to not doing the task as an encourager so that I don't have to do it all by myself.

All of my kids try to shirk their responsibilities at times. This morning Ramona, who is 5 5/6, didn't want to feed the dog because she was cold and huddled in a blanket on the couch. The dog was hungry. I didn't just feed the dog for her. I told her that she agreed to feed the dog and that he is relying on her to do so. (I am willing to remind her, so she isn't "responsible" for the dog, but the physical act of feeding him is her job.) Since she agreed to do it, I expect her to. If she's cold, she can put on her robe and slippers and then feed the dog. Or she can ask her brother to do it for her. Or she can feed him while wrapped in the blanket. Whatever. But I'm not going to stop what I am doing (making breakfast, which is essentially "feeding the child," which she definitely wants me to do, even if I am cold, because she is hungry, just like the dog) and do her task for her just because she doesn't want to. If I did that every time my kids seemed to have a reasonable idea about why they shouldn't do their jobs, I'd be shouldering a lot more of the burden. Ramona wasn't interested in getting on her robe and slippers; she just wanted to huddle on the couch and let me do the job. Sorry, no dice. You can either feed the dog and then huddle on the couch again or you can get warm clothes on and then feed the dog. But simply not feeding him, or making him wait until you feel moved to feed him, is not an acceptable option.

dm


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Well.... I think about short term and long term goals, I guess. In the short term, I'd like the task to be done, as smoothly and easily as possible. Since it's always been far easier to go with Rain than against her (especially when she was younger, when she was definitely, um, *spirited*), sometimes that meant doing it myself.... and other times it meant leaving it undone... and sometimes it meant another solution.

In the long term, though, it was important for my to model kindness and helping someone out, and I saw doing things like feeding the pets or folding her laundry as doing that. Today she probably does almost as much around the house as I do, and she wouldn't hesitate to take down and fold my laundry if I forgot or was having a hard week. I am happy with the way things have worked out, but when she was 5 I was going on faith...

And Rain does want me to be happy, and she has since she was pretty little. Maybe not every moment of every day, but in general it is a concern for her, just as her happiness is a concern for me. I think that's really been the key for us... especially once she got old enough to see things from another perspective more easily. It's normal for 5 year olds to be more self-centered, but it passes, usually...

Dar


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Yeah, I don't mean to give the impression that I lord over my kids all the time, forcing them to do all sorts of unpleasant tasks. For the most part, my kids help out without complaint. Sometimes they complain. Some of those times they are just being lazy and the task needs to be done and I can't get it done. Then I "make" my kids do it. Sometimes the reason the kids don't want to do it is something we can work out to everyone's agreement (I do it, or a sibling does it, or we make some other arrangement, or we just don't do it). Desta chronically grumbles about her chores, but she generally does them without being reminded. The little kids generally do their chores just fine. The vast majority of the time things are hunky dory.

I, too, look at short- and long-term goals. My short-term goals are to get the job done, to not have to carry an inordinate load myself, and to help my kids learn to take their responsibilities seriously (in no particular order). My long-term goals are to teach my kids the basic skills of life and to help them develop a sense of responsibility. Where I may differ from others at MDC is that I don't think that requiring chores crushes that sense of responsibility or inhibits it from developing.

dm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

My first thought on this is that it was not something the boy needed done. It was something mom needed done. So, it's mom's problem and ds doing it would be a favor to mom and not required. I like the idea of asking ds if he could come up with a plan for getting the dishes washed before I had to start dinner. I also like the idea of showing a 13yo how to do her own laundry. My ds learned to do his own laundry at about that age and now does not want me to do it for him. I practically beg him to let me wash his clothes. LOL As an adult and a parent I am obligated to provide for my children. My children, however, are not obligated to do anything for me.


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## saimeiyu (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
\
I, too, look at short- and long-term goals. My short-term goals are to get the job done, to not have to carry an inordinate load myself, and to help my kids learn to take their responsibilities seriously (in no particular order). My long-term goals are to teach my kids the basic skills of life and to help them develop a sense of responsibility. Where I may differ from others at MDC is that I don't think that requiring chores crushes that sense of responsibility or inhibits it from developing.

dm









:


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## TAC (Apr 11, 2006)

I think as parents we sometimes forget to treat our children with a sense of respect. Talk to them as we might like to be talked to. Explain why you need the dishes done. If he still refuses, ask how he would like the situation resolved. Allow him to be a part of the planning process. Dinner can not be made unless the kitchen is cleaned. How do you purpose we do that? I tell my kids when they pull the tired nonsense on me, I'm tired too. I got up this morning, before you, worked later than you went to school, and now I am home trying to do things so we can all have an evening together. I need help, I cannot do it all by myself. I find explaining to them my position, and why I need help, works too. Of course I have power struggles. We all do at one time or another. You have to do your share, you just do. It's not fair for you to dump your share on me or your sibling. You wouldn't like it if we did it to you. And ultimately, sometimes we just are tired. Would you like help? We all just need a little help doing a chore sometimes. Sometimes they ask for it, sometimes they don't. I am quick to remind them, that when they asked for help I was there. Now I am asking for help. I don't ask them to do anything I wouldn't do. And I treat them as I expect to be treated. Things get done around here, sometimes easily, sometimes not. But they get done. I am usually just too tired to do everyones stuff.

I have an 11yo boy, and a 13yo girl. They both, clean their rooms once a week, cook dinner, load/unload the dishwasher, clean bathroom, sweep, mop dust. Lately, it has been too hard on all of us and we have had someone come to clean. I refuse to allow this person to clean their rooms. They have a obligation to keep their own space presentable. I do not ever touch their rooms, that is their space. While they clean their rooms, I am in my room doing the exact same thing. I think that is why I don't get alot of flack.

It all about respect. You can't get respect if you don't give it. How would you talk to an adult you needed to do these things?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
My first thought on this is that it was not something the boy needed done. It was something mom needed done. So, it's mom's problem

Really? Mom is the only one who benefits from having dinner cooked? IMO, if the boy wants to eat the dinner mom cooked, then it's his problem, too, that the kitchen is not in a state in which dinner can be prepared.

dm


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmcarons* 
While they clean their rooms, I am in my room doing the exact same thing. I think that is why I don't get alot of flack.

I see your point. But I do all the house cleaning and cooking in *front* of my children allll the time and they still get upset when asked to do something like clean their room or another area of the house.







So that's definitely not going to work for the majority if us moms.

I think not wanting to tidy up and keep things clean is just part of being this age.







I don't think that means they have a problem or can "never" learn to clean up after themselves. Plus a lot of it starts when they are very little. If you don't train them from a very young age then it's a lot tougher to start when they are preteens and especially teens.

I have a hard time believing ANY child in this age range is perfect and does housework every day without complaining atleast a little bit. If you're children are, then kudos to you!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Really? Mom is the only one who benefits from having dinner cooked? IMO, if the boy wants to eat the dinner mom cooked, then it's his problem, too, that the kitchen is not in a state in which dinner can be prepared.

dm

Read some books on the subject of who owns a problem or a situation. It's not about who benefits. It's about who has the problem or need or is agitated or upset. If you have a problem with something, that's your problem, not anyone else's. It's not someone else's responsibility (especially a child's) to take care of an adult's needs. I am not saying that people shouldn't help each other. I am saying that I don't think it's right to expect our children to do things for us.

If my house is dirty and I'm worried about the baby picking something up off the floor or would be embarassed if someone stopped by, that's my issue. I can ask my child if he'll help me clean up but he's not required. I can't expect him to be as concerned or bothered as me about the state of the house because those things just aren't his focus. On the flip side, if my ds leaves his room such a mess that he can't find his fave video game, which eventually gets broken because it was underneath a pile of something that got stepped on, it's not my problem or my responsibility or obligation to buy him a new game.

There are always options to dinner when there isn't anything clean to cook in or eat with. How often do adults decide they are too tired to cook or clean so they heat up frozen dinners or go out to eat or have something delivered? Is it not acceptable for kids to feel the same way? The difference is that the kids don't have the power and control over the money and the transportation and everything else that goes into making that happen.

I have one child who I raised thinking that he had to contribute to the household and had to do chores and chip in and "do his part" and now I have a child who rarely does anything for anyone. I have another child who I have not place any requirements or expectations on but rather try to model behavior for and he is almost always helpful, even without being asked. It could be a personality difference or it could be a difference in how they were/are treated or a combo of both.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
There are always options to dinner when there isn't anything clean to cook in or eat with. How often do adults decide they are too tired to cook or clean so they heat up frozen dinners or go out to eat or have something delivered? Is it not acceptable for kids to feel the same way? The difference is that the kids don't have the power and control over the money and the transportation and everything else that goes into making that happen.

Yeah... we have mastered the art of making a quick meal with one square foot of counter space and two sinks full of dishes (and our kitchen is only 15 square feet anyway - literally). That's kind of what the kitchen looks like now, as a matter of fact, but I did get coffee made... and last night I made beans and cheese tostadas.

I'm not saying that anyone else has to live that way - I'm comfortable with the kitchen being a wreck for a couple of days, but no one else has to be, and eventually one of us cleans it - but MarineWife is right to point out that the idea that a messy kitchen means one can't prepare a meal is not true for everyone...

Dar


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
that the idea that a messy kitchen means one can't prepare a meal is not true for everyone...

Dar

And the option for the one who can't stand the messy kitchen (in this case mom) is for that person to clean it. I'm one who cannot cook if the kitchen is messy even if I have plenty of clean pots and pans and dishes. If I want dinner done now and the kitchen is a mess so that I can't cook, I have to own that problem and do something about it. If I would like someone else to help me clean the kitchen before I cook, I need to find a time when everyone is agreeable to that.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Read some books on the subject of who owns a problem or a situation. It's not about who benefits. It's about who has the problem or need or is agitated or upset. If you have a problem with something, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

I guess I just see it completely differently. To me, what you said feels like you're saying that people in a family have no responsibility for the other family members' wellbeing and happiness, and I simply don't see it that way. I am happy to cook for my family as long as they understand that I can't do it all by myself all the time. Just like I help my kids look for something when it has gotten buried under mess, I expect that my kids help me excavate the kitchen when they want dinner. To me, that give-and-take is what living in a family is all about, not everyone chasing their own bliss and disowning responsibility for others.

We have had to work really hard to teach my oldest, who joined us from an orphanage at age 11, that loving relationships are reciprocal and that being part of a family means that we all take responsibility for the family and the home. I understand that this is a different situation than a child who was raised from birth in his or her family, but I think it is interesting that my little kids, who have been raised with the expectation that they help out, and who do so the vast majority of the time without a fuss, seem to take in in stride that that's how a family runs whereas my oldest, who was raised by people (staff members) who did everything for her, has really, really struggled with the idea that family members take care of one another.

dm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
To me, what you said feels like you're saying that people in a family have no responsibility for the other family members' wellbeing and happiness

dm

I have come to realize and accept that I have absolutely no control over anyone else's emotions. I cannot make someone happy. I can try to do things for them that they will appreciate or make their lives easier or better but I don't expect or require reciprocation. I do things for people because I want to not because I expect something in return, especially my children. As an adult and a parent it is my obligation and responsibility to provide for the wellbeing of my children. I chose to have children and take on all the responsibility that goes with that. My children did not choose to be born. Nor did they choose to have siblings. It is not their obligation or responsibility to care for me or their siblings. That does not mean that I don't do everything I can to show my children that caring for others is important. I have discovered that if I care for them without any strings attached they will care for others. If I try to force them to be a part of or be responsible or care or feel sorry, I get the opposite result.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I can try to do things for them that they will appreciate or make their lives easier or better but I don't expect or require reciprocation.

I "hear" people here at MDC say things like that a lot ... basically that if you have no expectations of other people, you won't be disappointed. I think that's a very clinical view that's not really in line with human nature. I think that loving relationships are based on reciprocity. I guess it's just a fundamental difference in beliefs.









dm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
I "hear" people here at MDC say things like that a lot ... basically that if you have no expectations of other people, you won't be disappointed. I think that's a very clinical view that's not really in line with human nature. I think that loving relationships are based on reciprocity. I guess it's just a fundamental difference in beliefs.









dm

I think you might be misunderstanding the idea of not having expectations that set one up for disappointment. In this context, avoiding having expectations about another person that may set you up for disappointment is not the same as avoiding doing something yourself because it may not turn out the way you want. I do things with the understanding that I don't really have any control over the ultimate outcome.

Equal, loving relationships do usually involve reciprocity of some sort, even if it's just an exchange of love. I would be very unhappy in a relationship with someone who didn't help me around the house, so I married someone who does housework rather than marrying someone who doesn't and then expecting him to change. That way I have not set myself up for disappointment by expecting more from my partner than he can give. I'm not one who naturally and easily does things for others (maybe because I was not cared for that way as a child) but being with someone who gives to me unconditionally has made me want to do more for him and for everyone else. It still amazes me that he doesn't expect me to do things for him. He doesn't get upset if the house is a mess or he has to do some laundry. If my dh tried to punish me because I didn't have dinner ready when he wanted it because I was tired from doing a bunch of nothing at home with the kids while he was out working hard and making money (being faciscious..sp), we'd have some serious issues. As our relationship is, the give and take ebbs and flows between us. Sometimes I give more and sometimes he does. It's rarely, if ever, a 50/50 situation but things even out in the long run.

However, a parent/child relationship is not equal no matter how much we may try to make it so, if for no other reason than because our society does not allow children to be equal. Children only have as much power over their external situation as adults give them. I think that requiring my children to give back to me is an abuse of the power I have over them.

For example, yesterday my 16yo ds wanted me to drive him to a friend's house. I needed the cover put back on our Jeep because it had been blown off and it was going to rain. I have a hard time putting it on myself because I'm very short and I have two little kids I have to take care of. I could've demanded that my ds do that for me before I'd give him a ride, which would've set up a power struggle. Instead, I asked him if he would do it for me before we left but I didn't make it a requirement of me driving him somewhere. He didn't mind at all.

Another example with my 3yo: He wanted to play a game in the house that involved a lot of running and jumping around. There were other toys all over the floor so I told him it would need to be cleaned up before he could play the other game so that he'd be safe. From experience I have learned that if I tell him he has to clean this up before he can do that, he will fuss about it and complain and refuse. I am expecting him to understand what I want and do it because it's reasonable to me. Then I could get angry and annoyed and upset that he won't do it and we could get into an argument or power struggle. But if I tell him I'm going to clean it up and ask if he'd like to help, he will usually help and be very happy about it, singing the clean up song as he's doing it. Sometimes he doesn't want to help and I don't get angry or upset about that. I just clean it up myself. I've noticed that a lot of times when he sees me cleaning up without any anger after he's said he doesn't want to help he will decide to help.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I guess in practice our lives don't look much different. I would have said, "We need to get the cover on the Jeep, and after that I'll run you over to your friend's." Or, "Oh, gosh, you might jump on one of your toys and break it ... or break yourself! Let's clean them up!"

However, if it were going to rain and my kid decided not to help me with the Jeep cover, I would say, "I don't want to ride around getting rained on, so if you don't want to help with the cover, you'll need to find another way to get to your friend's." And, "I really don't want you to get hurt, so if you don't want to help clean up the toys, you'll have to wait until later to jump around."

In neither case would I just do it all myself, which is something I frequently see advocated here, and the idea I get when someone says that they don't expect their kids to do anything for them.

I guess that I either see our lives as pretty much the same even if we express our ideas differently, or I just simply fail to understand how we are different.









dm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

We are probably a lot alike and just have different ways of expressing ourselves. The difference I see is that I would clean up the room all by myself so that my child could play the other game. However, he would have to wait until I'm ready to do the cleaning rather than being able to play the other game right away if he were to clean up. With the example of the broken game, I would point out that the game might get broken if left on the floor but I would not insist that anyone clean it up. If I'm really that concerned about it and my ds doesn't want to pick it up, I'll pick it up. If I'm not concerned about it, then it's up to my ds to take care of it if he chooses. On the Jeep, the cover wasn't needed so I could drive it. It's undriveable (is that a word?). It's a protective cover because it's basically in storage in our driveway. So, that's not something that _had_ to be done in order for me to take ds anywhere. If it had been, then I would've told him I needed his help putting the cover on it before we could go anywhere. If he refused, then he might not get a ride depending on when I could get around to putting it on myself. However, I would not punish him for not helping me put the cover on when I asked.

That's not the same as me always doing everything for my child even when they are able to do it themselves. I believe that children want to do things for themselves. They want to grow and learn and become independent. It's my job to take care of them until they can do things themselves and then allow them to do those things as they are ready (not when I expect them to be ready). If I allow my children to just be who they are, they will take on more and more responsibility for themselves and for others as they are ready.

What if each different approach resulted in the opposite result than you anticipate? What if doing things for your child without any strings attached resulted in the child learning that giving is good in and of itself? The child sees that you are tired and hungry and want to make dinner but the kitchen is a mess so the child cleans the kitchen just to help you out and not because the child feels obligated. What if using carrots and sticks (rewards and punishments) when a child behaves the way you do or do not want him to resulted in the child learning to be self-centered? If I do this, I will get that. If I don't do that or I do this, I will be punished.

A good book that I recommend if you are interested to learn more about this is _Unconditional Parenting_ by Alfie Kohn. I think _Parent Effectiveness Training (P.E.T.)_ talks about who owns a problem. I can't remember exactly because it's been a long time since I took the workshop.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks. I have read Unconditional Parenting. I remember thinking that it didn't sound all that different from how I do things anyway but that I would react differently in some of the examples the author gave. I can't quote specifics, I just remember that was my impression of the book.

And I don't mean to make it sound like everything I do has strings attached. I don't have this mechanical relationship with my kids where everything is tit for tat and I never help them out just because. I do lots and lots of things jouyously for my kids, and it's not that expect repayment or something. I just think that everyone in a family shares the load, regardless of who asked to be brought into existance in that family. I guess I can't help in some way relating it to my oldest child. Desta did not ask to be adopted by us, but the reality is that she is here now, and I can't just do everything for her simply because she didn't ask to be here. But I had my ideas about mutual responsibility in a family before Desta joined us, anyway. I've raised my younger kids like that even before Desta came to us.

dm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Ah, ok. So, then you know and have come to your own conclusions about things. I'm sure there were some things in the book that I didn't completely agree with either but I can't remember specifics now. Based on my life experiences most of the book made a lot of sense to me.


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