# Sad time out situation at play date today



## catgirl1007 (Feb 9, 2005)

DD had 2 of her friends (both 24 months old, DD is 22 months old) over for a regularly scheduled play date today. Both moms are pretty main stream. One of the little girls is the sweetest little thing. In the year or so that we've been having play dates, I've rarely noticed her throwing a tantrum, taking toys, crying, etc. She's really laid back.

So today this laid back little girl had a bit of a melt down b/c she wanted a toy that the other friend had. Big deal - all toddlers go through this and you, as a parent, figure out a compromise. That's not what happened. The mom of the laid back girl grabbed her, put her on our sofa, told her she was having a time out, then marched into our kitchen and set the oven timer for 2 minutes. The little girl cried and cried, and at one point got up and said, "Mommy, mommy". The mom came back, put her back on the couch and said, "NO, not until the timer goes off!!" When the timer went off (the longest 2 minutes I've experienced recently!) the mom went to the little girl, picked her up and said, "See, the timer is off and it's okay now" and then gave her a hug. Talk about sending mixed signals.

I felt so bad for this little girl. She is the sweetest little thing. I held DD on my lap while this was happening and just cuddled and kissed her. DD was so confused b/c her friend was crying alone.

What kind of mssg does this send to my DD? Will it confuse her if this continues to happen in front of her? In DD's worst moments I'd never consider letting her cry alone for 2 minutes!! I'm not perfect and I've had my share of exasperated moments, but this didn't feel right to me. Do I baby DD too much? These moms also blatantly ignore their DDs when they ask to be picked up when they're fussy crying.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

My child has time outs...he cries...and I am not at bad mother.







:

I do agree that some comforting and explaining were warranted...but I think you can still be gentle and gently use time outs.


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## catgirl1007 (Feb 9, 2005)

I can see where some time out situations would be appropriate. I didn't like that the girl cried alone, the thing that lead to TO was not a biggie, asked for mommy and was shut down, and the "punishment" was never linked to the behavior. The mom wasn't even in the room when her DD was crying during the TO.


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

i think its pretty young to get that point across......if i even tried a time out on my dd she would just scream the whole time... i thought time out was a reflection time thing? i could be wrong.. but see no point to letting a baby scream for no reason... redirection works good for us...


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

To me, the bad thing here is that this child is usually very mellow. You have to give children room to be human. If someone was all over me that way over an uncharacteristic lapse, I'd be so pissed.







:

Jeez. Why is it that some people expect small children to hold to standards that no adult could ever meet every minute of every day?

It's just wrong.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I find in situations where I am uncertain how ds will be affected, it is best to pick him up and go for a short walk, even to another room, until the situation is resolved.

While I personally don't like time outs, and believe the situation could have been handled better, I think it's important for everyone to remember that most parents do the best that they know how to do. Many people on this site can empathize with the children, but forget to empathize with the parents also. Modeling how you would handle the situation might be enough to change the other parent's perspective. I also sometimes say, "When ds does_____, I find it helpful to _____." While I understand feeling frustrated at witnessing this, remember that criticizing doesn't do anything to change the situation.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am not an advocate of time outs. I am not an advocate of leaving a child to basically cio (even if they are toddler age) for any reason, nevermind a very minor, completely normal "infraction".

I think it is confusing to wee ones who are raised in a gentle environment, heck it is confusing to me even. I would not choose to be around people who treated their children with such disrespect, and if the friendship was that important to me I would have a calm reasonable discussion with the mother that what they do in their home is completely their business but I will not consent to such punitive measures in my home.

Good luck


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PortraitPixie*
My child has time outs...he cries...and I am not at bad mother.







:

No one said anyone was a bad mother.

Quote:

I do agree that some comforting and explaining were warranted...but I think you can still be gentle and gently use time outs.
Whether or not someone agrees with that statement, the whole point is that THIS was NOT gentle. There is nothing gentle about leaving a child alone to cry until a timer goes off.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captaincrunchy*
I would have a calm reasonable discussion with the mother that what they do in their home is completely their business but I will not consent to such punitive measures in my home.

Good point! I didn't realize this happened in the OP's home. I have told people before that certain things are unacceptable in my home, specifically when someone hit their child in my home.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

maybe talk to that mom about "time ins"? She seems like she's trying to be gentle (by not spanking) but maybe has not gone about it right. If she were to take that two minutes to sit down and reach a compromise, or even calm her dd down and let her accept that the other kid had the toy first and she can use it next, it might allieviate some of the possible confusion. I agree that age two seems very young for "punishment" for that type of behavior. She sounds like she was just trying to get what she wanted and didn't see why she couldn't have it-- normal 2yo behavior. I don't think a time out will help her learn anything in that situation.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

In all honesty I just fail to see the logic in the reasoning that "spanking is bad and hurts, but (punitive) time outs are OK"

I know I am speaking with passion, but just because you don't see the emotional bruises, does not mean they don't exist! Violating the body is NOT OK, but violating the emotions IS?

I said it before and will say it again - when I was a child (and I had both - time outs AND spanking) I would choose spanking any time! One, two, three - it's over.

Making me "isolated" from life, even if for 30 seconds, even if I could see my parents (that act so cold and uninvolved all of a sudden) was MUCH worse

Just like CC said - all of a sudden a toddler is deemed to be OK to be let CIO. Why? What does it teach? What is the purpose?

PS. And no, I am NOT advocating spanking in any shape or form.


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## catgirl1007 (Feb 9, 2005)

I appreciate everyone's points of view. The entire situation just felt wrong to me. I've attempted to discuss other natural parenting things with these moms... BFing, co-sleeping, homeschooling, and it falls on deaf ears. They don't think I'm weird or wrong, it's just not for them. The mom of the laid back little girl is especially set in her ways and believes that her way is the right and only way. That's her thinking and how she wants to raise her child is her & her DH's choice. I just don't like my DD subjected to it. In hindsight I wish I would have picked DD up and went in another room to play with her so that she didn't have to see her friend crying alone.

Quote:

To me, the bad thing here is that this child is usually very mellow. You have to give children room to be human.
ITA. I keep wondering how this will affect her later on down the road. The mom said that her DH has given their DD 1 TO and she has given her DD 4 TOs (now 5). I was left to cry alone when I was younger and it definitely had a negative impact on my early adulthood. My mom used to tell me that I was crying just to see myself cry and then leave me alone. Maybe that's why this situation didn't feel right.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I bailed on my Mom's Group when the kids starting get older b/c of this exact thing.

It's not gentle. It's stressful for everybody present.

And I can about guarantee it's going to get more punitive.

From my experience, the kids act out more and more and interact more negatively with the other children--often long after the normal developmental toddler stuff (hitting, not sharing, biting, etc.) is over.

Sorry you're going through this! I know just how it feels.

By the way, I used the situation as an opportunity to head to my local API mtg and made some of the most wonderful friends ever!! And some of the nicest kids, too! Best to you!


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I bailed on my Mom's Group when the kids starting get older b/c of this exact thing.

Yeah, I left a playgroup because of discipline issues, as well. I don't want DD seeing adults treat children like crap. It's bad enough she has to see family do it







when we go to visit. I don't want her to think the whole freakin world is like that.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I find in situations where I am uncertain how ds will be affected, it is best to pick him up and go for a short walk, even to another room, until the situation is resolved.

While I personally don't like time outs, and believe the situation could have been handled better, I think it's important for everyone to remember that most parents do the best that they know how to do. Many people on this site can empathize with the children, but forget to empathize with the parents also. Modeling how you would handle the situation might be enough to change the other parent's perspective. I also sometimes say, "When ds does_____, I find it helpful to _____." While I understand feeling frustrated at witnessing this, remember that criticizing doesn't do anything to change the situation.

abac - I loved your post! That is so true. I think sometimes people respond like all parents actually KNOW of a better way, they just chose not to use it. So no matter what you believe about time-outs, I would bet that this mom is doing the best that she knows how to do. Modeling is such a good tool for everyone - children AND other parents. I have learned many different parenting techniques from seeing them modeled by other moms.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

How humiliating to be punished like that in front of others.

I would have removed the child from the situation until she was done tantruming. For toy disagreements, they're still at the age where they're learning the script for sharing and don't always have the impulse control not to grab. Though if it was one child grabbing repeatedly, I'd probably end the playdate if I was having to redirect again and again and try again another day.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

my toddler has been hitting her sister alot lately and i find myself giving her a time out for about a minute explaining to her why it is not ok to hit and then after her timeout i explain it again, i find myself trying different things to make this stop, my toddler acts alot different when other people are around, but i would never give a time out for a tantrum







: or anything less serious than hurting another.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

sparklefairy said:


> How humiliating to be punished like that in front of others.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
In all honesty I just fail to see the logic in the reasoning that "spanking is bad and hurts, but (punitive) time outs are OK"

I know I am speaking with passion, but just because you don't see the emotional bruises, does not mean they don't exist! Violating the body is NOT OK, but violating the emotions IS?

I said it before and will say it again - when I was a child (and I had both - time outs AND spanking) I would choose spanking any time! One, two, three - it's over.

Making me "isolated" from life, even if for 30 seconds, even if I could see my parents (that act so cold and uninvolved all of a sudden) was MUCH worse

Just like CC said - all of a sudden a toddler is deemed to be OK to be let CIO. Why? What does it teach? What is the purpose?

PS. And no, I am NOT advocating spanking in any shape or form.

that sounds right to me, i guess i should look for better alternatives, i am just at my wits end with the hitting!!


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

I've got four biological children and one whom I'm adopting. No one solution works for all children, and while some children are quite sensitive and traumatized by time outs, others are completely unfazed by them, IMO.

I don't believe in physical punishment of any kind, ever. But I do believe in discipline and natural consequences.

That being said, a child of this age cannot be expected to want to share, and these kinds of breakdowns are just par for the course. It's sad that this mother was so harsh with her child, because it does sound like this situation was traumatic for the poor girl.

I just wanted to pipe in with the observation that children are all really, really different. I don't think any two of my five are tempermentally the same. My oldest is a firey young lady, and I have always respected her for it. She's also very sensitive. My youngest daughter is mellow and laid back, but NOT really sensitive. She's never been very needy, and is not overly concerned with the opinions of others. (Which I ALSO really respect and admire.)

I just think it's not a bad idea to remember that some children are not fazed by time outs...or anything much, for that matter. With those children, I don't think time out is some terrible humiliation.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
I just think it's not a bad idea to remember that some children are not fazed by time outs...or anything much, for that matter. With those children, I don't think time out is some terrible humiliation.

And some children aren't fazed by spankings, but that doesn't mean it's okay to spank only those children. The fact that a child doesn't cry or seem overly upset does NOT mean they aren't internally traumatized. When I was a kid and I got punished I never, ever, ever cried or acted upset. I didn't want to seem weak. I took it in stride on the outside, but I was very angry inside.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

...and if the children aren't affected by the spankings or time-outs, then why do them? Of course I am in NO WAY advocating for time outs or spankings (anyone who knows my posts can attest to that) but my point is --- spanking and time-outs are done for NO OTHER REASON than to "faze them". It is done to show them who is control, done to evoke fear, done to punish someone and make them feel badly and ashamed of what they have done, done to change behavior the parent finds *undesirable*... ... so if they essentially have *no effect*, I wouldn't imagine anyone would do them on any child.

No one lives inside their child's head or heart. No matter how well we think we know our child, sometimes we have to know common sense and the general spirit of humanity better. In other words, most people don't enjoy being hit, shamed, isolated or have love withdrawn from the people who are meant to love them the most and are in fact, "fazed" by it -- whether they show it outwardly or not.


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## kmamma (Dec 16, 2004)

I guess time-outs are not necessarily "bad" if you want to get the message across to your children that their true feelings are not encouraged, that their behaviour is more important than anything, and that violating people who are smaller and more vulnerable is an efficient way to deal with conflicts. Just like spanking is not necessarily "bad", as long as the child is not being given contradictory messages, such as it's not OK to be violent with your friends, but it's OK for me to be violent with you (because I have authority...). Violence is violence no matter if it's physical or emotional. In some cultures, violence is not frowned upon--it's all about your own values.

For the OP--in a situation like this I would find other friends to get together with. I have always said that they way a person treats his/her child is a good indication to how they would treat a friend.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

CC - such a great point. i've always wondered about that argument for time-outs/spankings. so many ppl who i've spoken to about it who do either of those say something like "i just barely tap them, they barely notice it", etc...i've always wondered WHY in the world they do it then?? i'd imagine that spanking is done because the person believes that the child needs physical pain to "Teach them a lesson". and if they're barely tapping them, wtf is the point? isn't it better to just not hit them at all?? oy.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

My gut response was that the mother was determined to go through the disciplinary motions even though the child was crying, since she was "in public" (at somebody else's house).

Lots of times people hate to "back down" in the middle of discipline, fearing that it gives the impression to observers that the child is spoiled or that the mother is not fully in charge of the situation.

You never know, at home she might have given up on the time out entirely.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just giving another possible reason for the mother's actions. There's a lot of peer pressure in parenting, perhaps she was responding to that.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
To me, the bad thing here is that this child is usually very mellow. You have to give children room to be human. If someone was all over me that way over an uncharacteristic lapse, I'd be so pissed.







:

Jeez. Why is it that some people expect small children to hold to standards that no adult could ever meet every minute of every day?

It's just wrong.









seeeee-rreeeeee-us-ly!

~Nay


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*

Whether or not someone agrees with that statement, the whole point is that THIS was NOT gentle. There is nothing gentle about leaving a child alone to cry until a timer goes off.









:


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
In all honesty I just fail to see the logic in the reasoning that "spanking is bad and hurts, but (punitive) time outs are OK"

I know I am speaking with passion, but just because you don't see the emotional bruises, does not mean they don't exist! Violating the body is NOT OK, but violating the emotions IS?

I said it before and will say it again - when I was a child (and I had both - time outs AND spanking) I would choose spanking any time! One, two, three - it's over.

Making me "isolated" from life, even if for 30 seconds, even if I could see my parents (that act so cold and uninvolved all of a sudden) was MUCH worse

Just like CC said - all of a sudden a toddler is deemed to be OK to be let CIO. Why? What does it teach? What is the purpose?

PS. And no, I am NOT advocating spanking in any shape or form.

that sounds right to me, i guess i should look for better alternatives, i am just at my wits end with the hitting!!

Hi sweetpea333,
I'm hoping that someone with more than one child will respond to your concerns, but in the meantime, I'd like to encourage you to stick around the gentle discipline forum, and maybe read some of the recommended books in the "sticky" at the top of the forum. I know that I'm convinced that time-outs--when forced--will never do anything positive for a child. My guess is that punishing one child for actions toward the other wouldn't help sibling relationships, although I only have one, so I can't speak from experience there.

I know that when I was young and forced into a time-out-type situation (it was standing in the corner in my family), my thoughts were consumed with resentment toward my parents, not with building skills to help me in that situation the next time.

There was a great thread on here recently about how our discipline goal should be to *help our children build the skills they need to overcome the "problem" situation*.

Anyone with more than one dc want to chime in here?


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Just my perspective here; I'm not intending to challenge anyone else's or to debate, only to present my own perspective and beliefs.

I don't agree with CIO for an infant or toddler. At some point however, it's necessary for a child to begin to deal with the frustration of not getting what she wanted BY HERSELF. Self-soothing. My philosophy is well thought out in this regard, but as I said, I don't mean to challenge anyone else's. I hold my own beliefs in high regard, that's why they are mine, but I don't hold them in higher regard than I do yours. I'm not into any kind of converting or preaching. (Not that I'm religious, I'm not, but you know what I mean.) I realize that many of you will not agree, and I respect your opinions. I just don't share all of them. Many of them I do, but not all of them.

My partner and I both believe in parental control of a judicious nature. Not arbitrary or ego based control. I do believe that it is my role to set firm boundaries, many of which my children will not agree with for quite some time, maybe years. Maybe never, although I hope that the boundaries that I set are such that they will come to agree with them.

As my children have grown older, my role as boundary setter and limit enforcer has been reduced considerably, especially with my oldest two. I recognize my place in this regard is to diminish over time, reduced to virtually nothing as my children grow closer to adulthood, and eventually it will be nothing. With my oldest daughter, that 'nothing' role is coming quicker than I had expected. She doesn't need me much in that regard. I recognize and appreciate her abilities, and for the most part I step aside. She's good at running her own life; it would be a boundaries violation of my own to take that from her.

As I say, just my opinion. I enjoy reading all of yours, and just want to offer mine.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
I don't agree with CIO for an infant or toddler. At some point however, it's necessary for a child to begin to deal with the frustration of not getting what she wanted BY HERSELF. Self-soothing.

But WHY?

How is crying alone gaining more life skills than crying while your parent hugs you and whispers soothing things to you (provided that's the sort of comforting the child desires)?

Why should ANYone have to deal with frustration by themselves (if they don't want to)?

Would it be appropriate to tell the moms who post their frustrations on the GD board that we're not going to empathize with them, but rather they need to learn to deal with it themselves? I think that would be seen as terribly unkind by anyone reading here.

I just don't think we build this trustful, nurturing, attached relationships with our babies to then move toward, "OK, you're old enough to cope on your own now." And to me, a kid who is frustrated to the point where they are crying and seeking comfort is telling me that he isn't old enough or ready to self-soothe.

I think "self-soothing" is highly, highly overrated.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
But WHY?

How is crying alone gaining more life skills than crying while your parent hugs you and whispers soothing things to you (provided that's the sort of comforting the child desires)?

Why should ANYone have to deal with frustration by themselves (if they don't want to)?

Would it be appropriate to tell the moms who post their frustrations on the GD board that we're not going to empathize with them, but rather they need to learn to deal with it themselves? I think that would be seen as terribly unkind by anyone reading here.

I just don't think we build this trustful, nurturing, attached relationships with our babies to then move toward, "OK, you're old enough to cope on your own now." And to me, a kid who is frustrated to the point where they are crying and seeking comfort is telling me that he isn't old enough or ready to self-soothe.

I think "self-soothing" is highly, highly overrated.










To me, from my perspective, it all depends on the child. It depends on the actual situation, what upset the child, how upset the child is and the temperment of that particular child. Are they easily upset and rage over anything? Or are they rarely upset and this is an unusual event? How old is the child and is there any reason to think that the child has an intent to manipulate with the tears?

I think you can empathize with a person, whether an adult or a child, without being drawn into their emotional state in a codependent way. Again, this is just my opinion, my perspective as someone who has had to untangle the codependency issues of my family of origin.

This position would not appeal to everyone here, and I wouldn't expect it to. This is my belief and my approach, and it isn't clear cut and easy to follow. There are just too many variables that I would take into consideration before determining which course of action I believed to be appropriate with which child in what situation.

It is my belief, mistaken or not, that you can express anger without relinquishing love, and that for women in particular, this is a very necessary element in relationships. If I am angry with one of my children-which isn't very often, I'm a pretty laid back person and my kids are really great-I express it. I believe that it's important to realize that anger and love coexist simultaneously, and I hope that what my children are learning is that their partners love them (and they love their partners), even when they are angry.

There is a difference between healthy expression of all the emotions of all of the parties in a situation and emotional abuse.

Yes I have put my children in time out when I was angry. I absolutely do not regret it. It gave me time to regroup and reevaluate. At times, I was the one who apologized. I'm human. At other times, careful evaluation dissipated the angry feelings, but my conclusions were the same.

Like I said, I don't have the CL perspective on life. I am the adult and my children are the children, and in our family we have different roles; our roles are always changing as my children mature however. They are not static roles.

But that doesn't keep me from admiring the families who practice CL. I admire the love, philosophy and commitment of the approach, although I do not agree with all of it personally.

I don't believe in emotional or physical abuse. I realize however, that some of you have opinions about what constitutes emotional abuse that are different from mine. I do listen to those differing opinions, and reevaluate, and it causes me to think. I think that's a good thing.


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PortraitPixie*
My child has time outs...he cries...and I am not at bad mother.







:

I do agree that some comforting and explaining were warranted...but I think you can still be gentle and gently use time outs.

I think I see where you were going with this one, and I agree with you. Granted, DS is far to young for time-outs, when he is (much) older we will probably use them.... the only difference between ours and the mothers in the OP is that I won't leave the room, DS will be able to see me and know that I'm there... plus, isn't 2 minutes a really long time to a child??? And when time out is over, aren;t you supposed to explain _why_ the child recieved a time and what can happen next time to make sure that type of behaviour does not happen again?


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I can't imagine how anyone right at 24 months old could even understand why they are being punished, even if you say "because you took the toy," I don't think they get it. Especially because they only take the toy to mimick the other child, not out of greed, in the first place (at that age).

And it's so uncomfortable to have to watch that sort of stuff, like one of the pp mentioned. Just unbearably tense for everyone else in the room, especially the other _children_.

I actually stopped having playdates with this one kid - sweet kid but the mom would hit him with a stick when he was "bad" (spare the rod, yk?), and it was just unbearable for Benji to see that. The little boy was upset, I was traumatized by it, Benji was traumatized. So it just wasn't worth it to be around that. Especially when you start feeling guilty, like "If we weren't having the playdate right now, this baby wouldn't have gotten in trouble and wouldn't be punished, so it's all my fault he's being punished!" That's how I started to think, so I had to stop being around that lady.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, delacroix, I do appreciate that you were respectful and calm in your posts, that is a rare quality around here at times...I'm guilty myself of getting a bit um *passionate*









I do disagree though. I think any time anyone needs comforting, if we are able to comfort, we should. That means children, animals, relative, strangers. It is my strongly held belief that children need us the most when they are acting their *worst* (and by worst I mean undesirable to us). Forced isolation has never seemed to make a situation better in my experience -- from babies left to cry it out alone, to toddlers forced into time out against their will, to prisoners in solitary confinement. It only seems to produce a more resentful, angry, hurt person who does not learn anything but that they should probably get better at stifling their emotions, then inflicting the results of their stifled emotions on others, or on themselves in the form of self destructive behaviors.

Just my $. 02


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

last christmas my aunt was having a christmas party and my cousin's 2 kids 5 and 6 were getting rowdy, and my cousin made them sit on there knees facing a cabinet with there heads resting on the cabinet for like 15 minutes in front of everyone !!!







: , before i could say anything my mom said "um dont u think that is a long time for them to sit like that and embarassing"


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
To me, from my perspective, it all depends on the child. It depends on the actual situation, what upset the child, how upset the child is and the temperment of that particular child. Are they easily upset and rage over anything? Or are they rarely upset and this is an unusual event? How old is the child and *is there any reason to think that the child has an intent to manipulate with the tears*?

(Emphasis mine.)

Here is where we have a fundamental difference in our views on children. I believe in the inherent goodness of children, not in some inherent desire to manipulate us. My child cries because she is sad or angry or frustrated or overwhelmed. NOT because she wants to manipulate me. The fact that some people decide to ignore their child's tears because they've decided the child is only doing it to manipulate them makes me feel angry.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Well, delacroix, I do appreciate that you were respectful and calm in your posts, that is a rare quality around here at times...I'm guilty myself of getting a bit um *passionate*









I do disagree though. I think any time anyone needs comforting, if we are able to comfort, we should. That means children, animals, relative, strangers.


Thank you Captain Crunchy, I appreciate the acknowledgement.







I'm not into debate. Debating in this context implies that I am right and the other person is wrong. I see the paradox in this, because I know we all choose the approach that we believe to be 'right'. I still don't like to approach things as though I am right and the other person is wrong. Ego investment in these things doesn't work for me; it leaves so little room for growth. I just like to talk. I enjoy the discussions.

I agree with you regarding comforting when a person or animal needs comfort. Where we seem to go in different directions is the 'need' part. Sometimes a person wants comforting, but needs something else. Believe me, I know. I've had too many people around me who are bottomless pits for comfort. Psychic vampires who can never get enough. Whether that is the result of not learning to self-soothe, at least in part, I can't say. I just know that these types of persons do exist and that nothing I do really seems to comfort them. It's a frustrating dynamic that I avoid, once I begin to feel that this is where the individual is coming from.

We have all tried to comfort a child who will not be comforted. I just don't do that anymore. Sometimes comfort is a way to buffer oneself against the reality of one's choices. I don't do that either.

In the end all I have to go on is my own judgement. I wish I had more, but ultimately that's all that any of us has. I try to judge as carefully as I can, on the fly, as the situations arise.

Plummeting;
I think I understand where you are coming from, and I sense a great deal of passion behind your words. That is, IMO, a wonderful thing. I appreciate your deep love for humanity. It's a refreshing thing to behold in times like these when so many people are cynical and jaded.

Where you and I part ways in terms of beliefs is in judging that manipulation is inherently bad. I don't know exactly how to put this...please bear with me. If my child is manipulating, I don't label her as 'bad' as a result of it. All people, not just children, want what they want, and will try to find ways to get it. A clever child's attempt to manipulate to get her desired outcome is not necessarily a 'bad' thing, IMO. It's just intelligence exploring it's options, or so I see it.

I try not to judge my children when I don't approve of their behaviors, while maintaining the boundaries that I've set. Human beings are prone to manipulation to get their end results. I do not see children as being exempt from this proclivity. If it works, they will add it to their bag of 'tools'. If it doesn't, they will discard it, or so I believe.

I realize that I may make a mistake in judgement and in so doing, I may inadvertently hurt one of my children. I take this possibility very seriously while recognizing that I am human and I will inevitably make mistakes in parenting.

These types of wounds are, IMO, a part of life. Who has not been inadvertently hurt by a partner, or friend, or family member? This is a part of life that we all have to employ our inner as well as outer resources to deal with. I hope that my choices have empowered by children to access both types of resources in times of hurt.

I know that I have been there for them with all of my heart and soul, and that my children and I are powerfully bonded with a love that is mutually respectful, even though my role is not the same as theirs in their younger years. I hope that they will forgive me my mistakes, as I forgive my mother for her mistakes. I hope that, as adults, they will realize that I am not all powerful and all knowing, just a human being who did her very best to be the best mother that I could be.

I don't see myself as a perfect mother, one who has all the answers. I've just tried to do my best to come to the best conclusions that I could. All of us make mistakes, all of us look back on things that we would do differently. To me, it's important to be a good enough mother, without holding myself to a standard of perfection that no one can attain.

Without question, I know that I've done my best and that my best is only human. In the end I believe that has to be enough.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
To me, it's important to be a good enough mother, without holding myself to a standard of perfection that no one can attain.

Without question, I know that I've done my best and that my best is only human. In the end I believe that has to be enough.









ITA!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
I think you can empathize with a person, whether an adult or a child, without being drawn into their emotional state in a codependent way.

Well, of course. But, we're talking about withholding comfort to small children so that they learn to "self-soothe," not setting up healthy boundaries vs. getting sucked into dysfunction.

Based on your comments in this thread, I think you may be injecting some other issues into offering comfort to children in such a way that they feel secure, loved, and guided to comfort themselves and others.

I can't for the life of me understand how withholding comfort is going to achieve those same ends.

I think the converse is true, that people who are not comforted nor have had those emotional needs met, are much more likely to develop that bottomless pit of need. When a need is met, it goes away. When a need is unmet it merely resurfaces in new and interesting ways.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
It is my belief, mistaken or not, that you can express anger without relinquishing love, and that for women in particular, this is a very necessary element in relationships. If I am angry with one of my children-which isn't very often, I'm a pretty laid back person and my kids are really great-I express it. I believe that it's important to realize that anger and love coexist simultaneously, and I hope that what my children are learning is that their partners love them (and they love their partners), even when they are angry.

I agree, and that's why I think time-out sends such a confusing message conflating anger and withdrawal of love. When we send people away when we are angry with them, are they more likely to feel loved or unloved? I would contend that people who are sent away, would eventually become very fearful of others becoming angry with them.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
my toddler has been hitting her sister alot lately and i find myself giving her a time out for about a minute explaining to her why it is not ok to hit and then after her timeout i explain it again, i find myself trying different things to make this stop...

Not at all to diminish the sibling rivalry aspect to this (how old is the sister?), but my toddler is also a hitter and also throws heavy items with glee, loves to kick maniacally too. I know he would NEVER understand if I made him go away from us- he doesn't even get why his sister is angry when he hurts her. So I just repeat various mantras: "throw the sand away from people." "That's for (insert true use), not throwing, here's a ball you can throw." With hitting - well, we made sure he has several drums and tambourines (and "you can hit your drum" "you can hit the couch" "you can hit the ball", we clap vigorous rhythms, or "let's play pattycake" - and he can slap my palms as hard as he wants).

One of these things usually works. Even if he's hitting from anger sometimes he still just wants to hit, and the diversion both diffuses his emotional upset and serves his physical need. Other times I snuggle up to him, empathize and try to help him through the angry feelings. I also regularly show him "gentle gentle" and ask him if he wants to repeat that gentle stroke on the person's body where he just hurt them. Usually the injured party is amenable, and ds is also amenable to this and gets very tender with the person, which helps them forgive him! I also try to spend separate special time with each of my kids, even for an hour or two, whenever i can.

hope that helps.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Well, of course. But, we're talking about withholding comfort to small children so that they learn to "self-soothe," not setting up healthy boundaries vs. getting sucked into dysfunction.

Based on your comments in this thread, I think you may be injecting some other issues into offering comfort to children in such a way that they feel secure, loved, and guided to comfort themselves and others.

I can't for the life of me understand how withholding comfort is going to achieve those same ends.

I think the converse is true, that people who are not comforted nor have had those emotional needs met, are much more likely to develop that bottomless pit of need. When a need is met, it goes away. When a need is unmet it merely resurfaces in new and interesting ways.

I agree, and that's why I think time-out sends such a confusing message conflating anger and withdrawal of love. When we send people away when we are angry with them, are they more likely to feel loved or unloved? I would contend that people who are sent away, would eventually become very fearful of others becoming angry with them.

I think I understand your point of view, and I agree with you that an unmet need will resurface in other ways. But I don't always view a child as wanting comfort because they are upset. To me, it often seems like the MOTHER needs the comfort. When comfort is a need, I agree that it should be met and cannot think of an instance where not meeting it is okay. It's just that I don't think that a child's attempts to engage a mother always stem from that need for comfort.

It's not my intent to dissuade you. I'm just of the opinion that it's not terribly difficult for a mother to be 'sucked into' dysfunctional dynamics with a child, and that the process of establishing healthy boundaries begins in childhood.

I wouldn't characterize time out as 'sending people away' when we are angry with them; I view time out as a healthy break that can sometimes allow both parties to emotionally regroup and reorganize. Again...it's all dependent upon the particulars of each situation, the age of the child, the degree of upset of the child, and so forth and so on. If anger always meant a separation, perhaps a child would become fearful of anger. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a time and place for separation.

Separation with an infant or a toddler isn't good, IMO. A secure relationship has to be established before you go about the process of individuation. Once our children were at a point where separation seemed appropriate to us at times, there was already a strong foundation between us as parents and child. Separation and returning to each other seems like the natural way of things to us, like the process by which a toddler learns that it's okay to venture away from the mother because she will be there when the toddler returns. To me, there is also a step during which it is affirmed that separations are temporary and an opportunity to regroup.

I want to clarify that time out isn't something that we've used with great frequency. Since our kids have plenty of room to be kids, we don't need it all that much. In other words, we don't expect age inappropriate behaviors from our kids and we recognize that we are all human and make mistakes.

Making mistakes is safe, in our house. Part of the learning process, nothing to dread or to fear.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
Not at all to diminish the sibling rivalry aspect to this (how old is the sister?), but my toddler is also a hitter and also throws heavy items with glee, loves to kick maniacally too. I know he would NEVER understand if I made him go away from us- he doesn't even get why his sister is angry when he hurts her. So I just repeat various mantras: "throw the sand away from people." "That's for (insert true use), not throwing, here's a ball you can throw." With hitting - well, we made sure he has several drums and tambourines (and "you can hit your drum" "you can hit the couch" "you can hit the ball", we clap vigorous rhythms, or "let's play pattycake" - and he can slap my palms as hard as he wants).

One of these things usually works. Even if he's hitting from anger sometimes he still just wants to hit, and the diversion both diffuses his emotional upset and serves his physical need. Other times I snuggle up to him, empathize and try to help him through the angry feelings. I also regularly show him "gentle gentle" and ask him if he wants to repeat that gentle stroke on the person's body where he just hurt them. Usually the injured party is amenable, and ds is also amenable to this and gets very tender with the person, which helps them forgive him! I also try to spend separate special time with each of my kids, even for an hour or two, whenever i can.

hope that helps.


my babes are 2 years and her sister is 9 months, ive tried showing her how to be gentle ive dont that for 7 months, but it doesnt seem to be working for her, im just scared she might really injure dd really bad, because we've had some really bad incidents (dd throwing a really heavy glass at dd and hitting her right in the foreheadd) and once (i totally blame myself, please dont think i am a bad mom, it was a stupid mistake) i put my youngest dd in her crib for a minute so i can go to the washroom and dd 2 crawled in and put a blanket over her head and was suffocating her (she probably thought she was playing, but dd was crying hard) luckily i was only gone for 30 seconds. I really feel like this has to stop right away! and i need a fast fix if it's possible, I do always supervise them and am pretty much always on the floor with them when they are at play, but dd always finds away to kick my youngest dd when she is walking by or slap her when we're reading a story or playing together...


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## MomAngela (Aug 29, 2013)

I understand that it can be uncomfortable to see others discipline their child. And perhaps the timeout could have been more gentle. However, the mom who did the time out is setting boundaries that unacceptable behavior will not be tolerated. I think a short time out and explaining we don't take toys is okay. I would not have set a timer, and I I think just long enough to say hey, we don't do this or that is a long enough time out for kids under 3, then a hug then allowed to play again. The mom was trying to say I still love you, even though your behavior was not okay. It's over and we can move on.

Did you explain to your daughter why her friend was getting the timeout? How do you handle similar situations?

My daughter is very hyper and has intense energy and pushes boundaries, so I am always interested in what moms think is best when you kiddo does something that is not okay. If you don't act enough moms think oh my, you did nothing, and if you do too much they think oh my, she's mommy dearest. It's a tricky balance. I know with ADHD, the boundaries need to be firm and solid. That is the fun that I think we have here. Although we have not gotten a diagnoses from a doctor, I've been looking at online test, and much much of the behavior is all too familiar, especially they hyper component of the surveys. We have a group play date tomorrow and I'm concerned. My daughter is now 41/2, so on strike two, we just leave. We had a play date on Tues. she did great, the other kids, 2 and 4 were the offenders. Today, Weds. she did just okay I give her a C to a C-. So tomorrow I have no idea how it will go. I am open to ideas, please.

And time outs, the parent or the one giving a timeout needs to stay calm, not be angry. It is a time for the child to calm down. And to also establish if you do something not okay, you will be removed from the situation.

We do not give time out for all behavior, if she throws a toy, it's taken away until she calms down and apologizes, for example. However, when my daughter gets crazy energy she just needs to calm her body and mind. When she was younger I would hold her on my lap, but now that she will be 5 in Jan. I want her to learn to calm herself on her own. When she gets crazed, she needs to calm her mind and body and needs personal space to do so.

I also think it is good for adults to learn, - hey I am all fired up, I need to step back, breath, calm myself and revisit the situation. At work, with a loved one, it can be a beneficial life skill. Kind of like a mini meditation, you are not getting kicked out because you are not loved, you have learned to take a time out so that you can more calmly interact with those you love or have to work with.

I am open to ideas on what to do at play dates when the kiddo is doing something not okay. Because sometime mine will go right back to what I just asked her not to do: please do not fill in the blank, that is not kind, you need to apologize. She says sorry and does it again, thus my time out.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

"However, the mom who did the time out is setting boundaries that unacceptable behavior will not be tolerated."

All the little girl did was express emotion. She got frustrated and didn't understand why she couldn't have the toy. This is not "unacceptable behavior", it's human nature at her age. She's too small to learn anything from being punished for this other than feeling like her emotions are not acceptable. It's sad, really.


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## MomAngela (Aug 29, 2013)

So he did not grab the toy from your child?

The reason I am so interested is because my child can grab toys or block another from getting a toy that she wants or a slide etc.

And I am trying to figure out how to better discipline at play dates.

But my daughter is 4 1/2. I stay with her and our time outs are to calm down so that she regroups and does not go back to the same behavior that was not okay.

Sometimes she does great, and sometimes she does not.

Also, when do we teach that we can feel emotions but can't act on impulse? I think it's gradual, and shown by example?

I try to ask, can you tell me how you are feeling or what's going on, then pivot onto I understand you wanted that, but you friend was playing with it, can you give it back? I feel like I'm pulling out all the stops and that her behavior is not predictable. Now when she was 2, I approached things differently. However at 2 she actually shared better that she does now. She was gentle and would just let he other kiddos have the toys. Now however, she is making up for lost time, leaving me at times at a loss!

I think on strike two we will leave the play date. Now that she is older I think she will get it, I will asked to you not do xy or z, if you continue I will give you time to calm down and refocus. If you do something not okay again, that you know not to do, we will leave.

Any Ideas?


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MomAngela*
> 
> So he did not grab the toy from your child?
> The reason I am so interested is because my child can grab toys or block another from getting a toy that she wants or a slide etc.
> ...


I think all of that sounds really good. What you're actually doing is a "time in", which is totally different than a time out as it involves helping the child to work through the issue and not using abandonment as a punishment. At two years old they don't really have a concept of sharing. They simply can't truly understand what is wanted. You can offer the child something else to play with, and also make the child aware of the emotions of the other child he/she had taken from. For example, "See how Johnny is crying? He was playing with the train and now he's sad because you took it from him. Maybe if you give it back it will make him feel better." If the issue is not resolved and the other child is upset, then I would try and get another toy out to offer to the offending child. If the upset child wants the new toy I will give it to him/her. Does that make sense?

Now, a four year old can understand sharing. What I try to do is "taking turns", that way my son knows he will get a turn eventually. If he takes a toy away and the other child is crying, I will point out the sadness of the other child. Usually, he will give it back to help the child stop crying. He is very empathetic, and I'd like to say some of that was learned from me, because I always try to show him empathy for his feelings rather than make him wrong for feeling them.

I don't know that I would leave a play date because he wasn't sharing, but ask me in a few months when I have a new baby and my son is four!! I try not to do that kind of stuff because it feels too punitive to me, but I do understand that sometimes it just seems like the only option.

HTH!!


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *"*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


That sounds hard, truly. I can only imagine what I would do (and have done) in your situation, which would be to keep your youngest up-up in a carrier or wrap unless you or another trusted adult can facilitate the sibling's interactions. I'd aim to play up all positive interactions and ignore any harmless slights. When you see your older child prepare to hit, bite, or throw, then growl. Seriously.
Sounds odd, but it can work. Especially as an alternative to the over-used and exhausted "No!"
Use a low, serious tone, and offer a distraction (build a tower! Puppet! Sing a song!) or redirect (high five! Finger play!) and go back to celebrating their positive interactions to the nth degree.
The key is to anticipate your older child's actions ... Learn to read the signals and cues.
The hitting, throwing, kicking always happens as a part of a progression. If you miss it and the little one gets hurt, pay big attention to the little one and point out the baby's expressions/feelings to your toddler. That helps build empathy, which goes a long way to helping siblings thrive together long term, which matters so much more than right now.
I would not do TO in this case ... In my mind, time outs would only serve to alienate the siblings from each other, build resentments between them, and show your older child that you think they're 'bad' when in truth it's more a matter of developmental timing & impulse control mixed with Big Feelings about this baby that showed up, rocked the boat, and is now obviously staying for good.
Hope some of that helps!


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## gitanamama (Feb 17, 2011)

This thread is great- I haven't had time to carefully read through all the posts, but I will this evening. I've always been anti- time out. I was a daycare provider before having DS and even taught workshops on time-ins and other time- out alternatives. However, I've ended up using time-outs with DS. I find myself so triggered by DS's tantrums and boundary testing that time-out seems like the safest option. I always run through the list of other options first- i offer alternatives, distract, etc. but DS is one of the strongest willed children i've ever met. When he doesn't get his way, he fights with all he's got-- even if I offer other options or try to redirect his attention. His intense screaming (not crying- screaming) hits me in a way that I just lose it-eventually I can feel my heart rate rise, I begin to shake, and just feel completely overwhelmed and out of control. I've tried removing myself from the situation- giving myself a time- out-- but I can't get centered with DS banging on the bathroom door and screaming. I often end up sobbing because I feel unable to stay calm, and unable to comfort DS when I know that's probably what he needs. I've never hit or spanked or been rough with DS, but I also can't bring myself to hold or hug him anymore when he's having a tantrum (I used to do this when he was younger.) I know it sounds ridiculous- I realize it is-- but I feel violated in a way by his noise and anger and outbursts and I can't reach the tender place inside myself to comfort him. I get so angry that none of the gentle alternatives work- I feel like my training and tools fail me, and then I just get angry with DS. I realize these reactions aren't helpful, but I don't know what else to try.

I should add- DS is free to come out of his room at any point- if he comes out screaming I walk him back to his room and explain that he can come out when he's calm. I don't use a timer or lock the door. When I've calmed down, I go to him in his room, give him a hug, and talk about the situation. I wish that we could avoid the escalation though and move to resolution more quickly. I'm open to any suggestions- I practice meditation and yoga regularly in an attempt to be more centered and less easily triggered.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Although I think time-outs can be effective, the way this mom did it was not effective for a child so young. Removing her from the upsetting situation was a good idea, but making her sit alone in a specific place for a specific amount of time didn't teach her anything, at least not anything helpful!

Sweetpea333 wrote:

Quote:


> my babes are 2 years and her sister is 9 months, ive tried showing her how to be gentle ive dont that for 7 months, but it doesnt seem to be working for her, im just scared she might really injure dd really bad, because we've had some really bad incidents (dd throwing a really heavy glass at dd and hitting her right in the foreheadd) and once (i totally blame myself, please dont think i am a bad mom, it was a stupid mistake) i put my youngest dd in her crib for a minute so i can go to the washroom and dd 2 crawled in and put a blanket over her head and was suffocating her (she probably thought she was playing, but dd was crying hard) luckily i was only gone for 30 seconds. I really feel like this has to stop right away! and i need a fast fix if it's possible, I do always supervise them and am pretty much always on the floor with them when they are at play, but dd always finds away to kick my youngest dd when she is walking by or slap her when we're reading a story or playing together...


Two ideas:

As the older sibling myself, I have to wonder WHY your older child is trying to hurt the baby. Most times I hit my brother were because he drooled on me (I was very disgusted by this) or damaged something of mine. Babies can't help drooling and truly don't understand why not to tear or crumple or rearrange certain things, but that doesn't mean the older child's feelings aren't hurt by it. Make sure that you are empathizing with your older daughter's feelings and that she has some opportunities to play out of reach of the baby.

Try putting your focus on comforting the baby, instead of on disciplining the older child. I haven't tried this with children so young, but with preschoolers and older it can be very effective at getting the hitter to understand why hitting is wrong (because it hurts people) instead of feeling resentment at being punished for an act that probably was partly motivated by something the victim did (so it feels unfair). Since hurting the baby has been a problem most of the time the baby has been in the family, your daughter may be doing it as a way to get your attention, to show you that she feels angry at the baby for even existing. You can give her more positive attention at other times, and that may help, but it's important NOT to make hurting the baby an effective way to get attention.

MomAngela wrote:

Quote:


> Also, when do we teach that we can feel emotions but can't act on impulse? I think it's gradual, and shown by example?
> I try to ask, can you tell me how you are feeling or what's going on, then pivot onto I understand you wanted that, but you friend was playing with it, can you give it back?


I think you're doing pretty well. You might try this approach:

Remove her from the situation, help her get calm, make sure you know what was the problem, then say,

"You wanted X, so you did Y. It's not okay to do Y. Instead, when you want X, do Z. Let's practice that."

For example, "You wanted the panda, so you grabbed it from Emily. It's not okay to grab toys when someone else is using them. Instead, when you want a toy someone is using, say, 'Can I please have a turn with the panda?' Let's practice that. Let's pretend I'm playing with this pillow and you want it." Pick up the pillow and toss it from hand to hand with a happy smile. If your daughter asks politely for a turn with the pillow, say, "Okay, just a moment," play for a few more seconds, say, "Your turn!" and hand it to her.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm fairly certain I would have sat next to child on the couch/hugged/held/spoken softly to comfort her. I may even have given her the toy in question. This may very well have ended the playdate... IMHO, 2YO's are still very much babies and shouldn't be subjected this type of punishment. Employing this kind of technique with a baby or very young child may result in a child who is not securly attached, or who doesn't bond properly with caregivers. This will set parent and child up for a LOT more problems down the road.

For 'playdate' situations with children who can't share, I might have held a child on my lap for a while, perhaps removed the offending toy and replaced with blocks or some other easy to share toy. They are little, they will learn to share, eventually.


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