# A very uncomfortable question...



## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

I don't know if I'm over reacting or if I need to listen to my instincts. I don't want to ask any of my IRL friends or DH, b/c I'm afraid of tainting their image of my dad if I'm totally wrong about this. I love my dad and he is a great guy and loves his grandkids, but it totally weirds me out that he massages my just-turned-10yo daughter's feet. Ok, there I said it.

He never abused me or anyone that I know of, but he does this to her even if she tells him to stop. She doesn't like him to take her socks off, but he does anyway and says it's better that way. God, as I'm typing this he sounds like a perve to me. Is this a foot fetish? Should I confront him or talk to my mom about it. Do I even let her be alone with them at their house? Am I being ridiculous in even giving this any thought? Please give me some balanced perspective here. Thanks so much.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:

, but he does this to her even if she tells him to stop. She doesn't like him to take her socks off, but he does anyway and says it's better that way.
No you aren't overreacting, and that's the reason right there. I would stop it by whatever means necessary. And no, I wouldnt' leave them alone together. It does sound like he is grooming her to me.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i would simply tell him that you are trying to teach your daughter that other people have to respect her body, her wishes, and her words. when she says to stop, that means everyone is expected to stop whatever it is she's referring to, whether it be tickling, massage, headrubbing, whatever. explain further that this keeps children safe- letting them know that they have the right to say no touching.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

If she says no and he's doing it anyway, I totally would be confronting the situation and not leaving them alone. He's violating her wishes and not listening to her, that is a big red flag to me.

Do what you need to do mama. Trust your instincts.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

What do you do when he ignores her requests to stop? I would say, "Dad, she said no. Leave her alone" and invite her to come sit with me if she wants to.

Yes, it does sound creepy to me.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

Simply the fact that it's your DD's body and she has asked him not to touch it in a certain way and he continues to do so means that you need to step in and stop him.

I'd think, if he really is a great guy who loves you and your DD, then a stern "DD doesn't like her feet touched. Please STOP." should work. And teach your DD to say strongly and loudly "I don't like having my feet touched!"

Your dad might just not understand that anyone could possibly not like a foot massage. He does need to listen to and respect boundaries, though.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
i would simply tell him that you are trying to teach your daughter that other people have to respect her body, her wishes, and her words. when she says to stop, that means everyone is expected to stop whatever it is she's referring to, whether it be tickling, massage, headrubbing, whatever. explain further that this keeps children safe- letting them know that they have the right to say no touching.











think of it this way - the person getting touched gets to decide who can do the touching and how the touching happens. it's never ok to ignore a child's wish to stop being touched. the only exceptions are in an emergency (like pulling them out of the way of traffic).

if he makes a big deal about it, you make a big deal right back. your daughter needs to know you are there to defend her. you don't want to teach her to give in to things that make her uncomfortable just b/c she may care for the person doing them.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I would not leave them a lone together. I think you should tell him that when she says no, she means no and ask him to help you teach her that her body should be respected. Have you thought about asking your DD any questions to find out if anything has happened? There have been several members of my family that were abused by one man (not saying your dad is like this at all), and it took three generations for it to come out. That being said, while what you typed might sound kinda pervish, I know Ive had family memebers that sounded way weirder than things actually were. If you think everything is ok, I would still ask your DD, and have a conversation with her about others respecting her body and make sure that she knows that no matter what she can tell you if anything ever makes her uncomfortable. I know my sister didnt tell for years because she was afraid that my mother would be mad at her or not believe her, because it was my mothers father.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I agree with the others. Time to put a stop to it.

Whether or not it is perverted, it's setting her up. It's teaching her that if someone touches her in ways she doesn't like, she is powerless to stop them.

Draw some boundaries. You are teaching her how to handle situations with men, with boys she dates, her future boss, etc.

Talk to him, and if he doesn't listen, then he doesn't get to be around her when you aren't there.


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## rhiOrion (Feb 17, 2009)

I think you should tell him to stop just because no means no. But I absolutely don't think it means anything sinister (not that it's not possible, but I don't think it MEANS it). My dad loved to tickle my sister and me. He never understood that no meant no. But he NEVER EVER EVER touched us in any inappropriate ways. He just didn't get that even though we were laughing we HATED it.

Probably your dad just doesn't get that anyone would dislike a foot massage. But he should be told that it's not cool.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Ok, thanks for the quick feedback. I come from a family with very poor communication skills so this will be hard. I know I have to talk about this with them. I'm also uncomfortable with physical affection (DH's family is totally opposite of mine).

I have talked to dd about it and we talk freely about inappropriate touching and behaviors, etc. She even said this morning that "he isn't doing anything inappropriate, is he? I just don't like having to put my socks back on."

Kids are so innocent and I'd hate to have to further explain this to her, planting yucky thoughts or fears. I did tell her that if she tells anyone to stop touching her in any way then they need to listen.

My dad is a totally oblivious kind of guy and hard of hearing. Very absent minded; and I mean very. I can see this being innocent, but I just can't leave it at that...there's too much at stake. I was abused by a friend of my older brother in our own home and could never talk about it until I was an adult. As a result I am pretty overprotective, dd almost never is without me or DH.

Come to think of it, this is probably why I had/have issues with affection. I remember that once I hit puberty I wouldn't sit on my dad's lap anymore, etc. Then around 13, 14yo I turned to boys for that affection...but I guess that's another story...ugh...I just don't want my dd to be messed up like I was/am.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
I was abused by a friend of my older brother in our own home and could never talk about it until I was an adult. As a result I am pretty overprotective, dd almost never is without me or DH.

Come to think of it, this is probably why I had/have issues with affection. I remember that once I hit puberty I wouldn't sit on my dad's lap anymore, etc. Then around 13, 14yo *I turned to boys for that affection...but I guess that's another story...ugh...I just don't want my dd to be messed up like I was/am.*

As someone who was also a victim of abuse, I just want to say that I am proud of you for this bolded statement. That is a hard thing to admint, and its great that you are looking out for her.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
I did tell her that if she tells anyone to stop touching her in any way then they need to listen.

it's great to tell her that, but it's even better to show her how to handle it. right now, she's saying no but it's not making your dad actually stop.

so, practice with her. pretend to be your dad and go over what she should do. "next time he does this you should xyz" - get up and move away from him; refuse to have your socks off - as in, pull them back up/on; kick his hands - and yes, have her kick his hands and say "stop that, i don't want you to do it"

give her permission to be stern / harsh in her "no".









don't treat it as "he's bad", may-be treat it as grandpa is being annoying and needs to get hit over the head with a brick to get the point.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 

don't treat it as "he's bad", may-be treat it as grandpa is being annoying and needs to get hit over the head with a brick to get the point.

YES! And its totally OK for you to answer for her. Or to help her if he won't listen to HER saying no.

ei, Grandpa starts annoying behavior, dd say's, "stop" and he doesn't. Thats when you respond with, "Hey dad, she said no and meant it. DD comes sit by me."

It doesn't paint the behavior as grooming in anyway, it doesn't paint grandpa as a bad person, it just shows that he needs to listen to what people say. I bet you do that a few times and he stops.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiOrion* 
I think you should tell him to stop just because no means no. But I absolutely don't think it means anything sinister (not that it's not possible, but I don't think it MEANS it). My dad loved to tickle my sister and me. He never understood that no meant no. But he NEVER EVER EVER touched us in any inappropriate ways. He just didn't get that even though we were laughing we HATED it.

Probably your dad just doesn't get that anyone would dislike a foot massage. But he should be told that it's not cool.

this. i doubt anything is wrong. My dad used to pull on our toes. it sound weird now, but it was a game. sometimes we loved it sometimes we hated it. I would just emphasise to your dad that no means no, and put a stop to it each and everytime you see it happen. give your dd the words/power to tell him, nope, I"m not taking my socks off.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

If other people are around, I don't think anything is wrong with it. My grandfather used to give everyone awesome food massages.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

does she have any foot issues? high arch or flat feet? is she into a lot of physical sports that tire her legs out?

i do think instead of you talking have your dd tell him to draw the lines. if he wont listen to her then you step in. but have her talk to him in a way he understands.

when i first read your post the first thing that came to mind was a 'simpleton' who was trying to help. not pervert. a 'simpleton' who doesnt understand no.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh my gosh I just got goosebumps because I'm facing a very similar dilemma. I don't feel comfortable allowing DS to be alone with my dad -- and it breaks my heart to have to admit that (and would break my dad's heart too if I told him that straight out). It's been weighing heavy on my mind since we saw them last weekend... tormenting me really.

Someone recommended that I read Protecting the Gift & I'm in the middle of it now. I think it would help you too if you haven't read it. We need to trust our instincts, they are there for a reason.

I think a foot massage is a gray area (I'd be uncomfortable with it but to others it might be no big deal) but the fact that he won't stop when your DD says no is a HUGE red flag to me, and no, I would not leave them alone together and I would not allow him to continue the foot massages if your DD doesn't like them. I don't know if this is more like tickling (where kids sometimes scream 'stop' but often are loving it) or if your DD is truly uncomfortable but if it's the latter you need to help her clearly communicate the "no" and make sure your father respects it.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
it's great to tell her that, but it's even better to show her how to handle it. right now, she's saying no but it's not making your dad actually stop.

so, practice with her. pretend to be your dad and go over what she should do. "next time he does this you should xyz" - get up and move away from him; refuse to have your socks off - as in, pull them back up/on; kick his hands - and yes, have her kick his hands and say "stop that, i don't want you to do it"

give her permission to be stern / harsh in her "no".









Also wanted to second the above!


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
when i first read your post the first thing that came to mind was a 'simpleton' who was trying to help. not pervert. a 'simpleton' who doesnt understand no.

OMG, that's my dad in a nutshell.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
Also wanted to second the above!

OK, I will def do this more thoroughly.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

No means no. Your dad's motives really don't matter here. If it happens again, I would step in immediately and put a stop to it, forcefully and firmly. There's no reason to plant any ideas in your DD's head, but definitely reinforce the idea that her body belongs to her and that she, and she alone, gets to decide who touches her, and where, and when. I like the suggestion above of doing a little role playing to help boost her confidence. It can be hard to say no to an authority figure, especially a relative, but it's a vital life skill for any child to learn.

And no, I wouldn't leave them alone together again until you've watched them interact quite a few more times and are confident that your father will stop when DD says no, and that your DD is able to stand up for herself.

By the way, it may be an uncomfortable question but I think you're very brave for asking it. Too many people would just shrug it off and let their DD suffer because they didn't want to risk a confrontation. You are one excellent mama.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
Oh my gosh I just got goosebumps because I'm facing a very similar dilemma. I don't feel comfortable allowing DS to be alone with my dad -- and it breaks my heart to have to admit that (and would break my dad's heart too if I told him that straight out). It's been weighing heavy on my mind since we saw them last weekend... tormenting me really.

Someone recommended that I read Protecting the Gift & I'm in the middle of it now. I think it would help you too if you haven't read it. We need to trust our instincts, they are there for a reason.










Thank you for sharing. It helps to know I'm not alone in this. I hope and pray that our situations are not as bad as we think. I hate that this world can be so evil and dark that we even have to discuss these things.

I will check out that book. Thanks for the rec.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Trust your instincts, mama! I also tend to err on the side of caution. In this case, I'd rather take the risk if hurting someone's feelings than (divine forbid) have something happen to my daughter.

An interesting observation... You said your family wasn't very affectionate, YET your father is being affectionate with your daughter...? I wonder what's changed?


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

We all come from different perspectives and thus see more or less danger in what you described, but I think we all agree that a no means no. So that should be respected, and if your dad forces you to make a big deal of it, so be it (it would be HIM making the big deal of course).

My dad really liked back rubs - being given back rubs. I'm 33 years old and I feel comfortable saying there was nothing to it; he liked back rubs. So when I was a kid I'd give him back rubs and it was fine, he loved it, I enjoyed giving them. They weren't given in private or anything, my mom might come in and out of the room. I never felt weird, and I don't feel weird about it in retrospect. But one day when I was about 8 or 10 my dad was kind of batting his eyes for a back rub and I didn't feel like it. Not in a weird way, but just didn't want to, probably was reading a book and wanted to keep reading. He begged again and my mom snapped at him "She said NO!!!!!" and that was that. He never asked for another back rub again. And when my mom did that it suddenly occured to me there was something shameful lurking in there. Not from my dad, I really don't believe it, but my mom had been abused as a child and she was protecting me. She did the right thing, I'm just saying it really was a moment for all of us, and it was also unfortunate and a loss of innocence in a way.

My comments aside, do what my mom did and make it clear that your daughter gets to decide about touch, period, end of story. Even if this interaction is totally innocent, it's a good lesson for both your father and your daughter to learn - that we all own our own bodies and have the full right to determine who touches them, as well as the total obligation to respect others.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
By the way, it may be an uncomfortable question but I think you're very brave for asking it. Too many people would just shrug it off and let their DD suffer because they didn't want to risk a confrontation. You are one excellent mama.









Thank you sooo much for saying this; it brought tears to my eyes. I am trying so hard to be a good mom and I always feel like I fall oh so short.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
Thank you sooo much for saying this; it brought tears to my eyes. I am trying so hard to be a good mom and I always feel like I fall oh so short.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sfcmama* 
An interesting observation... You said your family wasn't very affectionate, YET your father is being affectionate with your daughter...? I wonder what's changed?

My mom was never affectionate. My dad was until I hit puberty and became very uncomfortable with it. I'm tempted to ask my niece (who is now 20 and grew up mostly in my parent's home) if anything ever happened to her or if she ever felt uncomfortable.

Is it normal for daughters to distance themselves like I did or do you all think it's a result of abuse or some other disfunction?


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
But one day when I was about 8 or 10 my dad was kind of batting his eyes for a back rub and I didn't feel like it. Not in a weird way, but just didn't want to, probably was reading a book and wanted to keep reading. He begged again and my mom snapped at him "She said NO!!!!!" and that was that. He never asked for another back rub again. And when my mom did that it suddenly occured to me there was something shameful lurking in there. Not from my dad, I really don't believe it, but my mom had been abused as a child and she was protecting me. She did the right thing, I'm just saying it really was a moment for all of us, and it was also unfortunate and a loss of innocence in a way.

Thank you for sharing this.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
She even said this morning that "he isn't doing anything inappropriate, is he? I just don't like having to put my socks back on."

I would tell her that it is the fact that he isn't listening to her that is the big problem.

I wouldn't want her to grow up believing that if she loves someone and there isn't anything *really* wrong with what they are doing, they don't need to listen to her.

Let her know that *just cuz she said so* is enough of a reason.

My abuser gave me back massages for a long time before sexually assaulting me, and the line was VERY blurred at first. I'm not saying that your father is a molester, just that allowing his behavior to continue will make is easier for others to victimize your DD.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't really see anything sinister in what you wrote. I have a different take on it.

We've developed a consciousness and a vocabulary for abuse, specifically sexual abuse, in our generation. Lots of education, ad campaigns, media stories, etc. I think that it's now a reflexive filter for us as women and mothers, and that's great









I think that people of an older generation do not have the same kinds of consciousness and conditioning that we do. They weren't taught it, it wasn't part of their worlds. He's not filtering his touching her as 'This could be misconstrued as something else so I'd better not do it.'

You dad might just be seeing your DD as a baby still, and massaging her feet might be one of those 'safe' bonding places he can still touch her as a 10 yr old.

My question to you is...do you have any reason to believe that he might have ulterior motives? Or is it because his actions are not in your current comfort zone?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I would tread so, so carefully here--especially given your update that your daughter's main objection was that she didn't want to have to put her socks back on, not that the massage itself was an issue.

You have stated that YOU do not like/feel comfortable with a lot of physical affection. But is your daughter the same way? I think we need to be extremely careful about projecting our likes onto our kids and insinuating that to feel otherwise is dangerous (BTW, this can go the opposite way too--I have seen touchy-feely parents make their not-so-touchy kids feel that there's something wrong with them for NOT wanting touches/kisses/anything other than brief hugs too)

She have picked up that it disturbs you (unless I'm reading your updated post wrong). You don't want her to get the impression that mom is going to wig out over affection; esp if she feels fine with it (except for convenience factor). That turns you into a less safe person to talk to.

All that being said, absolutely back her up and talk to your dad that about listening to DD when she says stop about anything (whether it's taking off her socks or tickling or teasing or whatever!). But. I think that while it's important to listen to our gut, it's also important to know where our own weaknesses/sensitivities are that might be getting in the way. A fine line. But the fact that you have jumped from DD not liking her socks being removed to maybe you withdrew because your dad might have abused you (if that only happens in the case of abuse question) tells me there's something else going on there. Maybe with your dad, maybe with you, maybe with everything. I don't know.

But I don't think that in order to make sure our kids have strong self-awareness and body integrity we need to tell them to not listen to themselves about when things feel safe to them either. We need for them to feel comfortable listening to both.


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## dakotablue (Jun 21, 2009)

My first instinct is that its innocent, but in truth your dad's motives don't matter.

I would just have a frank talk with him about how you want your daughter to become empowered at this age over her body. You can say that he wasn't doing anything wrong, but that you don't want her to ever feel like she has to compromise ever with anyone having to do with her body and you want his help teaching her that as an important male in her family. Maybe if you go about it as 'i need your help to do this' rather than 'don't do this '

Dh's sister who is 18 still sits with her dad (not on his lap but pretty close and gets 'chills' (rubs her back to give her chills Dh tries to do that to me I hate it) and there is _nothing_ going on, but I know right now...that's not going to happen with my kids. it makes me uncomfortable.

Could he be grooming her? maybe. I think one of the scariest things I've read about child abuse was a mom that asked why didn't you tell me? and the kids said, Well it felt nice (I think this kid was 7 or so)

It sounds like you kid has a good head on her shoulders. encourage her to say 'socks on or you can't touch my feet.'








I'm so glad there are mama's out there like you who are looking even in unlikely places.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
this. i doubt anything is wrong. My dad used to pull on our toes. it sound weird now, but it was a game. sometimes we loved it sometimes we hated it. I would just emphasise to your dad that no means no, and put a stop to it each and everytime you see it happen. give your dd the words/power to tell him, nope, I"m not taking my socks off.

Hehe my dad did too.







I gotta say though I think this may be why I can crack all my toes... I can't crack my hands


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Like other posters, I don't really think this sounds sexual or perverted, and it doesn't sound to me (admitting that I'm not there, and not actually seeing the interaction between them) as if he's grooming her.

However, I also agree that it doesn't matter one bit what his motives are. I don't have the filter for adults touching children that Cascadian mentioned. I _do_ have a filter - big time - for adults disregarding a child's bodily autonomy. I won't tolerate it, and something like what you describe would probably end up with me ranting like a lunatic. But, to start, I agree with the poster who said you should just tell your dd that she has the right to say "no", and if your dad won't listen, she has the right to move herself away from the situation. If he doesn't respect _that_, then you step in and make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that "no means no".


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
but he does this to her even if she tells him to stop.

This is why you're not overreacting. Whether he has any nefarious thoughts in his head about it is completely beside the point - he's not respecting her. You need to be clear with him, in front of your daughter, that he needs to stop. If he tries anything like this, you need to stop it in its tracks as it's happening, and you need to give your daughter the words and actions to stop it.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Yeah, it may well be totally fine, but it's NOT fine to undermine and erase a person's sense of ownership over their body, their ability to say no and be heard. As a family we are VERY into that a person totally owns their body, and if they say stop or no, you have to respect that immediately. I wouldn't hesitate to tell a relative about this rule and enforce it. I'd explain that I wanted to keep my kids' body ownership intact, and I appreciated their help. Now, this is all in a context of being a very touchy-feely family who is pretty comfy with nudity. We love back rubs and the like! But there is a point of protecting that sense of body ownership, IMO.

OP and the others dealing with this, you are strong mamas! So many others have failed by doing nothing and closing their eyes. Of course you don't want to plant the idea of inappropriate-ness in your kids, but I think you've been so open and powerful in how you talk about it, your daughter sounds like she's totally taking it in stride. This is just how it has to be!


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cascadian* 
I don't really see anything sinister in what you wrote. I have a different take on it.

We've developed a consciousness and a vocabulary for abuse, specifically sexual abuse, in our generation. Lots of education, ad campaigns, media stories, etc. I think that it's now a reflexive filter for us as women and mothers, and that's great









I think that people of an older generation do not have the same kinds of consciousness and conditioning that we do. They weren't taught it, it wasn't part of their worlds. He's not filtering his touching her as 'This could be misconstrued as something else so I'd better not do it.'

You dad might just be seeing your DD as a baby still, and massaging her feet might be one of those 'safe' bonding places he can still touch her as a 10 yr old.

My question to you is...do you have any reason to believe that he might have ulterior motives? Or is it because his actions are not in your current comfort zone?

Yes, yes; this is why I posted this. I do think I have a hyper sensitivity; which I think is a good thing. I don't think there are any bad motives in this situation, but there's that "what if I'm wrong" fear.


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## fishmom (Feb 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
But the fact that you have jumped from DD not liking her socks being removed to maybe you withdrew because your dad might have abused you (if that only happens in the case of abuse question) tells me there's something else going on there. Maybe with your dad, maybe with you, maybe with everything. I don't know.

I'm so grateful for your whole post (didn't want to quote it all), but I do want to be clear that my dad never abused me; but I was abused in our home by a friend of my older brother's (along with some other bad situations with neighbor kids, with other boys as a teen, etc) which may be contributing to my weirding out easily.

i never felt I had a voice growing up and I never want my dd to feel that way. as a a very young child (5 or 6) I witnessed (thru a window) my friend being beaten by her mom (bruises all over her back days later). I ran home to tell my mom and she blew it off. I am still upset about it to this day.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
Yes, yes; this is why I posted this. I do think I have a hyper sensitivity; which I think is a good thing. I don't think there are any bad motives in this situation, but there's that "what if I'm wrong" fear.









this makes me really sad reading this. that fear has gotten into us so strong that if your parents do something that our children want them to stop you start thinking otherwise.

here are two issues here. relationship with dd. and relationship with dad. i would not want ANYTHING to happen to my relationship with my dad. also after so many years i dont know my dad?

i wonder then how many would feel this way with their own dh.

both the relationships are precious to me.

i really dislike what this culture is doing to us.

there are times when our conscience speaks to us, but there are times when fear makes us think its our gut/conscience talking.

fishmom this really wasnt directed at 'you'. but in general at society. you have said that your dad is a simpleton and if he has hearing problem and not wearing hearing aid he might not be able to hear dd. plus if you talk to your cousin there is a potential to mess up that relationship. so its imperative that you look deep within you and see why you feel strange. fear or something is off.

what i see from this situation, is not so much what's up with your dad - but more as how do i get dd to speak up and stand for her own rights.

my dd is a new 8. she has the courage to stand up and speak for herself to her dad. to get him to listen to her and allow her to do her stuff. doesnt mean he listens but she is slowly starting to speak up.

there are things i do with dd that rubs people the wrong way. many mamas here too have expressed they dont feel comfortable with me doing that. while others felt it was ok. only you can figure out the truth. we can all share our opinions.

edtd to include: mama i just saw your previous post.







mama. i am reading the book 'the courage to heal' to deal with my own issues and its sooo sad. It is exactly because of that i refuse to think of others as abusers too you know. for me it means my abuser won.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
My mom was never affectionate. My dad was until I hit puberty and became very uncomfortable with it. I'm tempted to ask my niece (who is now 20 and grew up mostly in my parent's home) if anything ever happened to her or if she ever felt uncomfortable.

Is it normal for daughters to distance themselves like I did or do you all think it's a result of abuse or some other disfunction?

I wonder that myself. I didn't grow up with my father in the house and my step father died about the time I hit puberty. My bio father WAS an abuser though.

My only real frame of reference would be my grandfather and it was my grandmother who FORCED the distance. I would come out into the living room in my nightgown and get yelled out for being indecent in front of him (by her). I had no idea I was indecent and at the time, it made me wonder what was wrong with ME or with HIM, but in retrospect, it was HER issue. He never so much as stopped watching tv to glance at me unless I spoke to him, you know?


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 







this makes me really sad reading this. that fear has gotten into us so strong that if your parents do something that our children want them to stop you start thinking otherwise.

here are two issues here. relationship with dd. and relationship with dad. i would not want ANYTHING to happen to my relationship with my dad. also after so many years i dont know my dad?

i wonder then how many would feel this way with their own dh.

both the relationships are precious to me.

i really dislike what this culture is doing to us.

there are times when our conscience speaks to us, but there are times when fear makes us think its our gut/conscience talking.

fishmom this really wasnt directed at 'you'. but in general at society. you have said that your dad is a simpleton and if he has hearing problem and not wearing hearing aid he might not be able to hear dd. plus if you talk to your cousin there is a potential to mess up that relationship. so its imperative that you look deep within you and see why you feel strange. fear or something is off.

what i see from this situation, is not so much what's up with your dad - but more as how do i get dd to speak up and stand for her own rights.

my dd is a new 8. she has the courage to stand up and speak for herself to her dad. to get him to listen to her and allow her to do her stuff. doesnt mean he listens but she is slowly starting to speak up.

there are things i do with dd that rubs people the wrong way. many mamas here too have expressed they dont feel comfortable with me doing that. while others felt it was ok. only you can figure out the truth. we can all share our opinions.

I agree. I struggle with this with my kids. We lost a set of really good friends because she feels that my kids were inappropriate with hers. The irony? After swimming and baths, I wanted them to get dressed and SHE was the one who said it's ok, so their naked? But one game of being puppy dogs later, her three yr old said my four yr old told her to sniff his butt (which dogs do, and my kids really get into their make believe, they'd wear collars and leashes if we'd let them) and suddenly my child molested hers.

But I really struggled with it, because in our culture, we don't KNOW what's normal. ANY expression of sexuality from a child is cause for alarm. Even expression that AREN'T sexual are seen that way.

I really struggled with how to teach him what's not socially appropriate without making him think their was something wrong with him for what he did.


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## NightOwlwithowlet (Jun 13, 2009)

OP, I think you are doing a great job giving your daughter a voice and teaching her to say "No" is a wonderful gift. If it weirds out you or your daughter, then it's not okay.

I was abused by a family member as a child. I adore my mom and respect my dad, but as a parent I'm appalled at how causal they were with our safety and well being. My mom did listen to her gut and stopped the person who was "bullying" me, but to this day (40 years and other victims late) she still can't call it abuse.

I prefer to err on the side of being over cautious when it comes to my son. If something happens to him, I can't take it back and I can't give him his childhood back.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think we all read this through the filters of our experience. My dad is a hard core alcoholic, and the alcohol has been affecting his brain and has been causing a lot of very strange behavior over the past few years. He never sexually abused me, and I would not think the dad I grew up with would do that, but I don't know about my dad at the moment. He has been behaving in very odd ways and I would not know what to think. I think of foot massages as being intimate and romantic. Add that to my uncertainty with my own dad, and I see grooming. But I agree with those who say that his motivation isn't really the big issue here. Him not stopping when she says no is the issue.


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## AmaraMonillas (Apr 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishmom* 
Is it normal for daughters to distance themselves like I did or do you all think it's a result of abuse or some other disfunction?

I think some distancing is normal. Personally I am on the other end of the spectrum. I still, at 23 and married, sit on my dad's lap. I grew up sheltered in some ways and I think I didn't pick up on a lot of our societies over-sexualization of adolescent girls. So I just wasn't self conscious about affection and have continued in our families cuddly ways







I guess inappropriate/forced sexual behavior has always been so foreign and hard for me to fathom it is hard for me to associate it in any way with cuddling up to my dad.


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## lilmom (Nov 9, 2008)

Just wanted to say what so many others have already said. Teaching her NO is a precious gift to her.

Listen to those instincts Mama! They are there to protect us.

What I see as worrisome is more your fear that you might be overreacting to the situation. You're not. Your daughter has said NO and he is still doing it. End of story. Grooming or no grooming, although personally, my first thought would be grooming. But that's not the point.

The point is, teach her to be a STRONG person who does not allow others to invade her space when it's unwanted! She needs to feel that she has control over her own body.

Also, Protecting the Gift is a hard read but it was also one of the best books I've read about parenting. It really hits the message home that we have got to listen, listen, listen to our instincts.

It doesn't matter if you were abused or not, or if he abused anyone else or not, or whether you are distant from your dad, or don't care much for physical affection..none of that matters when PROTECTING YOUR CHILD or yourself is the issue. Don't second guess your natural, IMO, God-given instinct to take care of your daughter. Don't let them be alone together, and make sure he understands no means no.

Good job wonderful mama bear!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilmom* 
Also, Protecting the Gift is a hard read but it was also one of the best books I've read about parenting. It really hits the message home that we have got to listen, listen, listen to our instincts.

It also says to make sure that we give our kids lots of real world practice so they know the difference between baseless fear and real/valuable fear.

I feel like a lot of people reference that book without encompassing the whole picture. While deBecker DOES advice tough caution, he also speaks bluntly about how teaching our kids to be afraid of everything, or giving in to global fear is just as damaging as them having to put up with anything to be polite.

It's a really fine line. Listen to our instincts, yes. BUT ALSO we MUST understand where those instincts *come from*. It's always best to err on the side of caution. However, some of us are handicapped by some really twisted instincts (I speak for myself here, NOT the OP). In order for us to really protect our children, we need to learn how to separate our internal experience-driven personal anxiety from real instinct.

Look, there are people who will not allow their daughters to be alone with any men (including fathers and brothers) because they fear that any man left alone with their kid will molest them. That is total instinct for them and no one will convince them otherwise. Is that healthy? I don't believe so. Is that global fear that every man IS a rapist something that may very well drown out true instinct and place the child in the long run in even more danger? Yes, I believe it is. I have someone dear to me who is very strongly and uncontrollably "instinctively" fearful of men of a certain race because of her family upbringing--she has learned to set some of that aside but it's probably not ever going to go away. Yet she knows that some of that is not true "danger sense" and is more programming. Before she did the very courageous and hard thing of working some of that out she was in double danger--both because she would never recognize members of that group who WERE safe and could help her in other situations and because her guilt at knowing that some part of that was not "god given" led her to second guess real feelings of danger. Gut feelings and instincts can be innate, they can be danger sense, they can be programmed and learned. It's more complex than "always go with your gut." Certainly you can act cautiously and err on the safe side--but I think we do ourselves and our kids a disservice if we stop there and never examine and more importantly never talk our (esp. older) kids through that process.

That's why I think it is important as parents, especially those of us who deal with trauma issues (or frankly, even those who have not!) need to both honor our fear, to not be afraid of our fear--which includes not being afraid to look at the source and evaluate even as we exercise caution with our children.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

He never abused me or anyone that I know of, *but he does this to her even if she tells him to stop. She doesn't like him to take her socks off, but he does anyway and says it's better that way.*
I wouldn't jump to molestation. He may not have a "filter" that would tell him this could worry someone, either because of his generation, or because it's common for people to lose that social filter as they get older.

_However_, the part I bolded would make me very upset. I would not leave my children with a person who behaved in this way, even if I knew without a doubt that the problem was not a sexual one. I have had to remind a relative of certain things we do to help our children protect themselves. This relative has *no* bad intentions, but lacks the ability to read social cues sometimes. We and the children love this person, and it's painful to have to play the heavy and insist our rules be followed, but it's important. I want our children to see that we will defend them, and their right not to be pressured into interactions they are not comfortable with.


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## AmaraMonillas (Apr 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
It also says to make sure that we give our kids lots of real world practice so they know the difference between baseless fear and real/valuable fear.

I feel like a lot of people reference that book without encompassing the whole picture. While deBecker DOES advice tough caution, he also speaks bluntly about how teaching our kids to be afraid of everything, or giving in to global fear is just as damaging as them having to put up with anything to be polite.

It's a really fine line. Listen to our instincts, yes. BUT ALSO we MUST understand where those instincts *come from*. It's always best to err on the side of caution. However, some of us are handicapped by some really twisted instincts (I speak for myself here, NOT the OP). In order for us to really protect our children, we need to learn how to separate our internal experience-driven personal anxiety from real instinct.

Look, there are people who will not allow their daughters to be alone with any men (including fathers and brothers) because they fear that any man left alone with their kid will molest them. That is total instinct for them and no one will convince them otherwise. Is that healthy? I don't believe so. Is that global fear that every man IS a rapist something that may very well drown out true instinct and place the child in the long run in even more danger? Yes, I believe it is. I have someone dear to me who is very strongly and uncontrollably "instinctively" fearful of men of a certain race because of her family upbringing--she has learned to set some of that aside but it's probably not ever going to go away. Yet she knows that some of that is not true "danger sense" and is more programming. Before she did the very courageous and hard thing of working some of that out she was in double danger--both because she would never recognize members of that group who WERE safe and could help her in other situations and because her guilt at knowing that some part of that was not "god given" led her to second guess real feelings of danger. Gut feelings and instincts can be innate, they can be danger sense, they can be programmed and learned. It's more complex than "always go with your gut." Certainly you can act cautiously and err on the safe side--but I think we do ourselves and our kids a disservice if we stop there and never examine and more importantly never talk our (esp. older) kids through that process.

That's why I think it is important as parents, especially those of us who deal with trauma issues (or frankly, even those who have not!) need to both honor our fear, to not be afraid of our fear--which includes not being afraid to look at the source and evaluate even as we exercise caution with our children.










Thank you, this is very well articulated.


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## dziwozony (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
No means no. Your dad's motives really don't matter here. If it happens again, I would step in immediately and put a stop to it, forcefully and firmly. There's no reason to plant any ideas in your DD's head, but definitely reinforce the idea that her body belongs to her and that she, and she alone, gets to decide who touches her, and where, and when.

I am really big on this!! Your dad might have completely innocent intentions, but if a child tells an adult to stop touching their body, this needs to be respected!!

It's really common for kids who don't want to give a hug to a relative to be forced into it, either through guilting them ("oh come on, you love them don't you? Go give them a hug...") or by the adult pretending to cry or be sad or some other weird game to pressure the child into giving a hug. It bugs the hell out of me!

My 3 year old has a friend (also 3) who gets really funny about interacting sometimes. He'll want to come up to her & give her a cuddle or play a ticking game or give her some kind of gentle touch & she'll snap a grumpy "NO!" I pull him aside & tell him that was really nice what he was trying to do, but no matter what it is your offering, if someone says no you have to listen because they get to make choices about their own body. Then I of course shower him with hugs & kisses 

But really, it's a very straight forward, simply concept & it would be awesome if everyone coule follow it!


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JudiAU* 
If other people are around, I don't think anything is wrong with it. My grandfather used to give everyone awesome food massages.

I disagree. See, my dad gives awesome foot rubs.... and I don't really think there is anything wrong with foot rubs. I LOVE getting food rubs. But the OPs daughter obviously doesn't. Some people just don't (my DH hates any kind of massage). And the problem with OPs situation is that her dad isn't stopping when the DD says stop. He even takes it a step further by insisting on taking her socks off.

Now, I don't think that this necessarily means that OPs dad is doing anything sinister. But I do think it means that it's time to teach some boundary lessons to OPs DD and to her dad. DD needs to learn that she gets to set the boundaries for her body and that it's okay to insist that other people respect them. And OP's dad needs to learn that other people have a right to decide how and when they want to be touched. There doesn't have to be anything even remotely sexual about those lessons.

FWIW, I'm working on them with my 2.5 year old son right now. If he says he doesn't want hugs or kisses, then we respect that. It doesn't mean that when we want to give him a hug or kiss that there is anything sexually abusive about it... just like when OPs dad wants to give a foot rub, there probably isn't anything going on. But that doesn't mean that DS has to allow us to hug him every time we offer. Or that OPs DS has to let her grandfather give her a foot rub if she doesn't want one.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

just wanted to throw another thought into the pot for you guys...
i was abused as a child by a family member. That family member was NOT my father. My da and I did, however, experience a very similar dynamic to what you describe (distancing after puberty & post abuse by another..).
I've thought about it a lot.. my conclusion for my particular situation is this:
my father was from a generation where this was typical behavior (distance) first of all.. and secondly, though he did not cause the abuse, nor did he even know about it (though my mother did) I blamed him, either subconsciously or even in an overt way for not stopping it. For not protecting me.
As you're trying to process your relationship with your own father, that might be a key to that puzzle if your situation was similar to mine in any way.
I already posted on page one basically that no means no and it should be reinforced. There's no way to tell, but I have a hunch that your dad just is clueless and you're imposing your own frame of reference in the situation. I find myself doing that a lot, based on past experiences that are hard to escape from. Either way, reinforcing your child's ability to refuse and speak out strongly will make you feel much better.
Sounds like you're doing a great job, and those uncomfortable questions need to be explored.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
If she says no and he's doing it anyway, I totally would be confronting the situation and not leaving them alone. He's violating her wishes and not listening to her, that is a big red flag to me.

Do what you need to do mama. Trust your instincts.











When you let this continue, even against her wishes, you're teaching her that her bodily privacy doesn't matter.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 









When you let this continue, even *against her wishes*, you're teaching her that her bodily privacy doesn't matter.

Exactly. You are teaching her that if a boy touches her breast and she tells him to stop, that he doesn't need to. Her saying no just doesn't matter.

If you allow this to continue, you are teaching her to not even bother saying no.

It's not about the foot massage, it's about whether or not her body belongs to her.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Exactly. You are teaching her that if a boy touches her breast and she tells him to stop, that he doesn't need to. Her saying no just doesn't matter.

If you allow this to continue, you are teaching her to not even bother saying no.

It's not about the foot massage, it's about whether or not her body belongs to her.


Yep. If I were you, I'd apologize to your dd that you've let this happen and promise her she'll never have to endure another foot rub again.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

he does this to her even if she tells him to stop
This is wrong.

I think it is sad how so much adult-child touch has been made into possible molestation, but when a child says stop, when a PERSON says stop, it needs to stop.

It does not matter where he's touching her--top of the head (a pat), hand massage, foot massage, tickling under her arms, anywhere. If I were you, I would say the following:

"I love that you have a good relationship with DD, but we are teaching her that when she says stop, that it will be respected or she leaves. We don't want that situation to come up. So if she asks you to stop or not to do it, please stop. If not, we will help her leave. It's important that as a young woman she learns these skills if she wants to stand up to boys."

And then do it. If he doesn't stop, say politely but firmly, "Dad, she said NO. DD, come over here, please." Teach her to walk away. Let her do something else.

My husband is the type that thinks if he likes something, everybody must like it. He literally can not comprehend that someone might not like what he likes. It just... doesn't fit in his brain. So I can see how your dad might not get this without really firm action. He might think she's teasing or something. But you have to draw the line.


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