# Why do you disagree with timeouts?



## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

I see people posting really negative things about timeouts all over MDC, and I'd like to understand the reasoning behind it better. If you're against them, can you please explain what you dislike about them?

I've used timeouts to great effect, which is probably why I'm confused. We mostly used them when DD was 2 and was overly worked up (sad, angry, hyper & not listening) as a tool to help remove her from whatever was getting to her and to help her learn to calm down. Most "bad" behavior happened when she was worked up, so it wasn't a punishment. It was purposefully used to teach her something positive--to calm down. (Also it gave me time to calm down, and helped her understand why sometimes I took a moment for myself before reacting to her.) Once she was/is calm, we talk about it and help her label her feelings.

Now that she's 3 we tend to take her in her room when she's acting up and tell her that she needs to calm down and is welcome to come back and play. She has learned when to take a time out by herself, when she needs space to calm down. To me it's a very gentle approach, so I'm just confused why it's seen as such a bad thing around here.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I disagree with time-outs for all the reasons listed here.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I do not use time outs in the way described in that article at ALL.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Well I am sure there are some people who disagree with the deffinition of CIO - maybe thats not how they 'do' it...maybe they have their own twist on it as well. But it either _is_ or _isn't_ something. If you don't do time outs - you don't do them. I wouldn't be calling something a 'time-out' though if thats not what I did. We have done 'time-ins' and that is _no where near_ the same thing as a time out!


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## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

I believe it is the intent and use of them that makes the difference.
I think that they are a great tool to give a break and calm tempers, not as punishment.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

I haven't read the article, but I can tell you that we dropped traditional time outs years ago because they just didn't work for us. For instance, lets say the 3 and 4 year old were playing with each other and one spiked a toy onto the other's head. Pulling him away from the screaming and hurt kid and telling him he gets a 3 minute time out for throwing the toy at someone else and then enforcing a "sorry" afterwards just made everyone angry. It didn't calm the kid who got hurt and often it would be repeated time outs until the kid doing the throwing just broke down into a full blown tantrum while the other kid would be just as worked up from being hit in the head with toys and seeing the drama going on.

We started very slowly just getting in the middle of things, asking why they did what they did, and explaining things truthfully. Like, we would explain that we don't throw things at each other, because it hurts and isn't a very nice thing to do, and if it happened again, we would have to only play with soft toys or play apart because throwing hard toys at others is very dangerous. Sometimes we would find out that the toy was thrown due to frustration over wanting a different toy, or over how the other kid was playing, so we would point out that you don't HAVE to play with the other kid if you don't want, or would facilitate a sharing schedule (that they would work out themselves...such as 5 minutes per kid or three turns per kid). It took some time but it got to the root of the problems instead of just dishing out an arbitrary punishment that didn't help quell the hysterics in the long run.

Having said that I have had one or more kid come "take a time out" with me at the park or whatever where we would talk about what was going on if there was a problem. Last time it was because there were like 5 kids pushing to all go down the tube slide at the same time making for a super un-safe situation at the top of the 15 foot platform and quickly leading to shoving and yelling between all the kids. Just because I called it a "time out" doesn't mean he was sitting there on a bench alone and isolated...it was a time to calm down from the drama at the slide top and at the same time brainstorm some ideas for dealing with that situation more effectively.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I ONLY disagree with using them as a punishment. If a child throws a toy, you put him in timeout. If a child won't eat his lunch, you put him in timeout.

But, a time out as a cool down for the child or children is fine. I remember in grade school, if we got too rowdy, the whole class had to put their heads on the desk, and the teacher turned the lights out for a minute. Then after a few minutes, we could raise our heads and by that time, we had settled down.

Obviously, in a large group, that was the best way to handle all the kids quickly.

Sometimes parents need a time out. You just HAVE to take a moment away from the child or children, and since you can't just walk out to your car, it's easier to send them to thier room for a while.

Timeout isn't supposed to be a quick fix. It shouldn't be used as a punishment, just because it's super easy. But, on occasion, it's a handy little tool so you can all regroup.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It addresses the behavior without taking care of the problem that caused it. For my older child, 9 out of 10 times when she's misbehaving, she needs to eat something. It's gotten to the point that when she gets mouthy, I go get something for her to eat (with protein), and I say, "Here, eat this and then we'll talk." Generally, when she is finished eating, the bad behavior is past because the cause of it is taken care of. Other reasons her behavior goes bad include stress, not feeling well, etc. No matter what the cause is, I want to know, so I want her to stay where she can communicate that with me or where I can at least observe her and try to figure out the cause.

In younger children and toddlers, bad behavior is often caused by frustration, and being put somewhere alone doesn't help frustration.


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## SallyN (Feb 5, 2008)

I think there can be quite a variation in terms of what people define as a "time out." Some are more gentle than others (ie: there IS a difference b/w forcing a child to sit on a mat for some number of minutes, and resetting the clock of they budge or make a noise and expecting them to spend the time "reflecting" on their transgression and being forced to apologize at the end of the time out, or facing a return to the matt/chair/step VERSUS removing the child from the situation, coaching them to gain composure and leaving it up to them as to when they rejoin activity.)

That said, we don't do imposed time outs. I'll model "removing MYSELF from a tense/heated scenario" and calming down. And DD1 has picked up on that and will sometimes go off to her own quiet space ON HER OWN and return when she's ready. Otherwise, we do time-in together... either sitting down right where we are, or moving to a different room (ie: changing scenery to break the cycle of whatever we're trying to stop.) (caps meant for emphasis, not yelling







)

Here's a good (IMO) article breaking down the pros/cons of time-outs: http://www.professionalparenting.ca/articles.html (scroll down for "123 Time Out Advantages and Disadvantages)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I've also removed myself when I've gotten upset in the past, and my older child sometimes does the same because she's seen me model that.

And a time-in can be useful for a toddler, though I guess I mainly did that when in public to keep everyone else on the planet from having to endure my child's tantrums rather than as a teaching tool. But we went by ourselves somewhere and sat until she was through the tantrum.


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

I love posts like this bc I always learn so much from you guys.

We do a lot of talking over here w/ds1 (7 yrs old) and ds2 (4.5 yrs old). I want them to understand and think things through.

It's really hard to break away from the notion that timeouts=consequence for bad behavior. (And tbh, the only time we have a problem here is when there is meanness involved. Everything else I can handle pretty easily, but I need a time out when they are being hateful to ea other bc it just sets me off).

I grew up in a yelling, punishment, spanking household and have decided to go the other way, but man is it hard to change the feelings that come up as a result of how I was parented. (Wait a minute, I think I just had an ah ha moment bc I never connected that before!).

I have always thought that time out just doesn't make logical sense bc my goal is to use every experience to teach something or help them work through something themselves. I guess it's just a matter of implementing a better solution, and ds2 is challenging me to really think this issue through.

Sorry for the ramble!


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SallyN* 
Here's a good (IMO) article breaking down the pros/cons of time-outs: http://www.professionalparenting.ca/articles.html (scroll down for "123 Time Out Advantages and Disadvantages)

This website looks like a very nice resource. Thank you for posting it!


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I don't use timeouts as a "naughty-chair" punishment kind of thing-- you know, like "oh, you hit the dog, so you have to go sit in the chair and don't get up until I say," But I do use them successfully in situations where a child has gotten overstimulated and overwrought and is not in control any longer. For example, my DD1 gets like this sometimes, and I send her to sit in her top-bunk bed for awhile. She has a little shelf up there with her little special things and some books and little toys, so it's not like she's sitting and staring at an empty wall. Usually what'll happen is a situation will erupt and she's crying or not in control in some other way, and talking to her is turning out to be no use because she's too upset to talk or listen. I'll tell her to go up to her bed. She'll cry and rage for a little while, and then it'll go quiet. At that point, I go up to her, and she's usually quietly playing with her stuff and chatting to herself. So I leave her be, and after awhile longer she'll come out quietly and tell me she's ready to come out, and we'll sit a minute and talk about what happened and why and how it could have been prevented.

With little ones, like under about 4, I'll go with them. For example, if DS (3) is noisy and upset at the dinner table, I'll take him and we'll go sit on his bed together on his bed until he's calmed down, and then we'll talk very simply about what is expected in terms of dinner-table behavior, and then we go back to the table together. I might do that with an older child, too, but with DD1 so far she seems to do a lot better left alone. She really does just get overwhelmed, and she needs a quiet place to collect herself, but when she hasn't learned yet to go looking for that quiet place when she needs it. So I tell her, "You feel overwhelmed. When we feel that way, we need to go sit somewhere quiet for awhile. Let's go do that."


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## nhoutdoormama (Oct 22, 2007)

I think, as with a lot of issues re: parenting, the terms gentle discipline and time out can be pretty subjective. Unless everyone is using time out as was initially defined by behavioral psychologists, which I do not think is the case. The use of punishment is my concern, not the gentle, well intentioned parent trying to support their child through a difficult period. The term punishment is often misused too, however.

For us, remaining gentle and respectful are priorities for our family. Each family is different, each child is different. It sounds to me that what you have been terming time out has been a respectful experience for everyone involved!

I think it is very important to stress these values/goals and to support one another in attaining them rather than getting hung up on semantics. I know parents who do not use time out but who can be very rough and unkind (yelling, shaming, etc.) to their children, and parents who use time out regularly and are gentle, kind, and respectful.

I know that my son has some issues related to his prematurity that can make processing certain emotions difficult for him at times, and that he needs a calm adult to step in and help him find a quiet spot to calm down/reflect before he has a melt down. Sometimes he needs this help during the meltdown. We chose to use terms other than time out, but this may look like a time out to an unfamiliar judgmental eye. Allowing him to become out of control while surrounded by people only escalates his upset and dishonors his right to let his best self shine when around people he is not familiar with.

Sounds like you're doing great stuff for your DD, Mama, don't let the generalizations of well intentioned folks who do not truly know your situation get you down!


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

It's been a long while since I posted here. I agree that timeouts are not effective unless it's for a cooling down.

This post is a nice gentle reminder that I need to find more effective discipline techniques.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think time-out teaches kids anything except that if their parents are annoyed with them or don't like what they are doing then they have to be isolated for an arbirtrary amount of time before they can either start doing that thing again or stop if their parents look to fed up. I think that telling a child what to do instead, redirecting to another activity, reminders (both gentle and stern), and helping children cope by making sure they are well rested and well fed are much more useful for children and parents because those things prevent behaviors we don't want as well as teaching children the reasons behind why they are expected to behave in certain ways. Punishing children with time out just teaches them to stop what they are doing when their parents get a certain tone or look on their face in order to avoid time out. I do believe that kids need time to cool off sometimes, but the location and duration of time spent cooling off should be up to the child except in very extreme circumstances.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

the location and duration of time spent cooling off should be up to the child except in very extreme circumstances
My DD, without redirection to a time out, would have spent her time "cooling off" by screaming and kicking in a hot kitchen next to an oven with all the burners on while i was trying to cook dinner for 40mins. That was not an extremem circumstance, i cook dinner every day, she spends most of her time with me, and at 2.5 she had tantrums about 3x a week. She is NOW at nearly 4 old enough to deal with tantrums a little easier, but at 2.5 she was NOT able to. Removing her from the "scene of the crime" (whatever frustrated or upset her in the first place) gives her time to calm down without having the offending event/item/situation still in her face. About 80% of the time she takes herself to time out nowadays, and sometimes she calls for me to come too, but sometimes she doesn't.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

I used to be anti time out after reading Unconditional Parenting. Then my little gentle baby (now she's 27 months) started pinching and biting. Now I feel like it's necessary to take her away from the activity when she hurts someone. I don't call it a time out. I don't threaten her with time outs if she doesn't behave. I don't isolate her, but she isn't going to continue playing after she bites/pinches. I don't remove her from me. I remove her from the activity or the person she hurt. I don't follow the rule about one minute per year of age. I follow her needs. As soon as I feel she has regrouped we go to the other child and apologize in some way. Sometimes I do the apology and sometimes she does the apology.

When she pinches/bites me, well, I'm still trying to figure out how to handle it, and that's a whole 'nother thread on mdc.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
My DD, without redirection to a time out, would have spent her time "cooling off" by screaming and kicking in a hot kitchen next to an oven with all the burners on while i was trying to cook dinner for 40mins. That was not an extremem circumstance, i cook dinner every day, she spends most of her time with me, and at 2.5 she had tantrums about 3x a week. She is NOW at nearly 4 old enough to deal with tantrums a little easier, but at 2.5 she was NOT able to. Removing her from the "scene of the crime" (whatever frustrated or upset her in the first place) gives her time to calm down without having the offending event/item/situation still in her face. About 80% of the time she takes herself to time out nowadays, and sometimes she calls for me to come too, but sometimes she doesn't.

I think safety concerns are extreme enough to warrant choosing a different location for a child to scream. I also think that 40 minutes of crying and kicking a day is very extreme. Maybe not for this particular child, but for most kids that sounds very extreme.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Yeah, we do time-ins and we will remove DD from our bodies or move our bodies away from her, if she's kicking, etc. But we don't do the standard kind of time-outs you see and hear about, like on TV. We're into unconditional parenting big time.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies!

It looks from teh responses that a lot of you who are against time out have a very specific view of what exactly time out is. I think in practice, parents use a wide variety of time out methods. I can see disagreeing with some of those methods, but not writing off all of them.

I just wanted to quickly respond to this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I don't think time-out teaches kids anything except that if their parents are annoyed with them or don't like what they are doing then they have to be isolated for an arbirtrary amount of time before they can either start doing that thing again or stop if their parents look to fed up. I think that telling a child what to do instead, redirecting to another activity, reminders (both gentle and stern), and helping children cope by making sure they are well rested and well fed are much more useful for children and parents because those things prevent behaviors we don't want as well as teaching children the reasons behind why they are expected to behave in certain ways. Punishing children with time out just teaches them to stop what they are doing when their parents get a certain tone or look on their face in order to avoid time out.

You can probably tell by my original post, but I totally disagree that it doesn't teach children anything. I always try to understand the _purpose_ of the misbehavior before I take action. Maybe she's overtired or hungry, trying to get my attention because I've been busy with something, or is angry at me for setting a boundary. Each case has its own course of action. I don't use *punishments*, I use *consequences*. Because they are consequences, I give a warning beforehand and attempt to redirect, in order to give her the best chance at NOT needing a timeout. That way it's not a sudden decision on my part and she can see it coming based on her won decision.

Say DD is in a hyper and wild mood and hits her brother. And then say I give her a warning and help her get involved in another activity, either to calm her down or redirect her energy to a more appropriate activity. A minute later she gets up, goes back over to him, and hits him (this situation is totally made up, btw.) As promised, I put her in time out and say "time out. We don't hit people. You need to calm down for a few minutes." I'll set the timer (mostly just to be aware of how long she's over there). She can yell scream, whatever, I don't limit the noise. After a few minutes, she calms herself down so I come back and we cuddle and talk about what happened. We talk about how hitting hurts, and then we go back to her brother so she can ask him if he's ok. It's not about forcing a "sorry," it's about checking on how your actions affected others and how they are doing.

So it seems to me like if a parent does it thoughtfully, a time out can actually teach self-control, help them identify & express emotions, and encourage empathy and social skills. Sounds pretty AP oriented to me, and very different than punishment.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

A punishment is a negative consequence used to create behavior change. So yes, it is a punishment.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I agree that a parentally-imposed consequence is a punishment, and that time out is a punishment. And I'm ok with that









I only use time out when my child is being unsafe around people. In that case, time away from people is the most logical consequence I can imagine. I've read the Kohn material, and simply do not believe that this kind of boundary equals love withdrawal. "I love you", and "I will not let you hurt me" are not mutually exclusive in my reality, thank goodness! On the contrary, I think it is a VERY valuable lesson to teach my dc as they grow.


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## SallyN (Feb 5, 2008)

Without getting into talk about reinforcers and punishments...

I think that "gentle" punishment (ie: logical/natural consequences) falls within the scope of attachment parenting.
It's when you get into Unconditional Parenting (and perhaps consensual living, I haven't done research into that) that people stop using punishments or extrinsic reinforcers (ie: praise and rewards) to elicit behavior changes.
Since MDC is inclusive of these varying spectrums of parenting philosophies and methods, you'll see differing opinions with regards to time-outs.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spring Lily* 
So it seems to me like if a parent does it thoughtfully, a time out can actually teach self-control, help them identify & express emotions, and encourage empathy and social skills. Sounds pretty AP oriented to me, and very different than punishment.

This is how time outs work out at our house. In the heat of the moment, they stop the action. Everybody gets a chance to cool down. They usually lead to a more calm discussion of the situation. They often end with completely voluntary apologies, or one kid expressing what he needs to say in a safer way, and feeling understood. And with everyone calm, we can figure out what else they could do so that they are both happy. Sometimes they are a tool for me to clarify a limit someone wasn't sure about. Sometimes they provide space and time for a child to consider how his actions affect others. I see a lot of positive things come out of them.

How I use them does not look anything like what I have seen on certain TV shows, with a "naughty stool" and a child shamed and made to sit on it until they give in, as they were a wild horse to be broken. Even when I'm using time out, I want them to have a way to feel they can "save face", to maintain a feeling of dignity, and to feel like they got something out of the process. That's why we talk through them.

I've come to see that words can mean different things to different people - time out, consequences, punishment are all terms that can be interpreted in different ways. For the most part I've quit reading parenting/discipline books or worrying about whether I'm following this or that philosophy. I may read something and take some ideas that work for me, but I don't fret about following anyone's rules. What matters most to me is the feeling I have about how we are handling situations. I want to feel like we are growing in a direction of peaceful, respectful and considerate behavior, caring about each other, and enjoying being together. Discipline that generates anger and resentment doesn't get us there. It also doesn't get us there when I don't effectively address things that I am not okay with and end up feeling resentful and powerless myself. There is a balance to strike. For myself I've found that my feelings about how we are doing are my best guide.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SallyN* 
Without getting into talk about reinforcers and punishments...

I think that "gentle" punishment (ie: logical/natural consequences) falls within the scope of attachment parenting.
It's when you get into Unconditional Parenting (and perhaps consensual living, I haven't done research into that) that people stop using punishments or extrinsic reinforcers (ie: praise and rewards) to elicit behavior changes.
Since MDC is inclusive of these varying spectrums of parenting philosophies and methods, you'll see differing opinions with regards to time-outs.









I agree. My response was to SpringLily, who said she uses consequences, not punishments. I forgot to quote.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It addresses the behavior without taking care of the problem that caused it. For my older child, 9 out of 10 times when she's misbehaving, she needs to eat something. It's gotten to the point that when she gets mouthy, I go get something for her to eat (with protein), and I say, "Here, eat this and then we'll talk." Generally, when she is finished eating, the bad behavior is past because the cause of it is taken care of. Other reasons her behavior goes bad include stress, not feeling well, etc. No matter what the cause is, I want to know, so I want her to stay where she can communicate that with me or where I can at least observe her and try to figure out the cause.
.

While I can definately understand how being hungry can cause a child to act out, do you ever worry that this might cause her to use food as comfort when she's upset when she gets older?


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I agree. My response was to SpringLily, who said she uses consequences, not punishments. I forgot to quote.

Why does time out have to be a punishment? A lot of the time it is not.

Sometimes it's as simple as removing a child (for their own sake and the sake of others) in order for the child to calm down, take a breather, think about another way to solve a problem, while giving the offended child space to feel "safe."

If time out is used as another poster mentioned, with "naughty chairs" and timers and all that, then yes, that's punishment. But time outs aren't always punishment and are not always negative.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Why does time out have to be a punishment? A lot of the time it is not.

Sometimes it's as simple as removing a child (for their own sake and the sake of others) in order for the child to calm down, take a breather, think about another way to solve a problem, while giving the offended child space to feel "safe."

If time out is used as another poster mentioned, with "naughty chairs" and timers and all that, then yes, that's punishment. But time outs aren't always punishment and are not always negative.

I suppose there's a continuum, but my response was only to SpringLily, not a statement about everything everyone uses the word "time out" to mean.

I would say overall that if it is something the child doesn't want to happen, it is negative, and if that negativity is part of the reason it's being used, a hope that the negative feeling will change behavior, then it is a punishment.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bcblondie* 
While I can definately understand how being hungry can cause a child to act out, do you ever worry that this might cause her to use food as comfort when she's upset when she gets older?

No, I don't believe in behaviorism in regard to people. I think people are much more complicated than that. Hopefully it will help her better learn the low-blood-sugar signals her body sends her, though.


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## SallyN (Feb 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I suppose there's a continuum, but my response was only to SpringLily, not a statement about everything everyone uses the word "time out" to mean.

I would say overall that if it is something the child doesn't want to happen, it is negative, and if that negativity is part of the reason it's being used, a hope that the negative feeling will change behavior, then it is a punishment.

agreed. At least, that's what I learned in Educational Psychology. The term "time out" derived from "time out from positive reinforcement." And punishment is "unpleasant consequences used to weaken behavior."

HOW the time-out is conducted will determine how "gentle" or "respectful" or "reasonable" (or not) it is. Which I think is what some of this discussion is about. But regardless of how gentle and respectful it is, it is *still* time out from whatever activity the child was choosing to do (i.e.: from their perspective, an "unpleasant consequence."

Now I suppose technically a "time in" is still a "time out" as it's removing the child from the undesirable situation. However I think proponents of time in would present that although the child is being removed from the situation, the replacement (attention from parent/care-giver) is not an unpleasant consequence. hmmm... now I want to think/ramble on this more, but my DD1 needs some quality mommy time whilst DD2 is napping... else I'll be dealing with the consequence of "misbehavior" later.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Well I guess the difference I see with time-in is that the parent is still behaving in an actively loving manner. If the parent is in the same room but giving the silent treatment or refusing to look at or touch the child, then it's still emotional distance used to make the child feel bad in an attempt to change behavior. But it sounds like most people using time-in are talking about seeing that the child is out of wack and wanting to take away extra stimuli and take the child away from where the problem started, settling the child down, holding and being loving and soothing. That seems more like a desire to soothe and relax the child than a desire to make the child have negative feelings in an attempt to change behavior.

However, I think it's more in how the child interprets it than how we intend it. I assume parents doing time-in are trying to judge the response to see if the child feels punished or feels soothed. And how punished or how soothed the child feels is probably a pretty good measure of where on the punishment contnuum it falls.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Sometimes I give DH a time out...sometimes *I* take a time out if I am emotinally out of control, and at a certain age (depends on your kid I think) sending them to their room or another isolated _safe_ place to blow off some steam, is important.

We all have needs in the family, and they all NEED meeting. If the child is well fed, well rested, and well stimulated and they simply have a need for autonomy that cannot be met because it compromses their safety, or they have a need for a degree of personal touch that compromises another family memeber's need for safety and not being hurt, or they have a need to assert their will and it infringes on their sister's need to not be dragged down the hall, time outs have been very effective for us, so far (one child down, one to go -- 6 weeks so we are years away from these decisions).

I suppose I am not doing them in true Time out fashion, but we call them time outs because it was the word they used in pre-school which was easier for him, and it is a _time-out_. We drop EVERYTHING and take a break and go be alone, calm down and reflect and then when we can think rationally again, (sometimes this takes one minute,sometimes it takes five, for the grown ups in the house this can sometimes take _hours_) we come back into the common areas and discuss our needs and wants rationally and calmly. It really doesn't work with toddlers, imo. I much preferred the Happiest Toddler on the Block method of toddlerese reflecting their feelings back to them...but sometimes *I* needed a time out and ds needed to be safe so I would put him in the playpen or his room while I gathered my wits not to scream or pinch someone. Then I went to him and talked it out.

It really works well for our family's temperment (fairly long fuses but when we blow our stack for whatever reason, MAN do we blow it big!), I don't believe they should be used as a punishment, but rather a _preventitive_ measure, as a step BEFORE things get so crazy that bad behavior happens. And if I understand the time-ins as described here, always after this and all other measures have been exhausted and it is clearly one of those things that one could benefit from being alone.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

On second thought, I suppose in a way it is always a punishment, because who wouldn't like to go right on emotionally abusing and agressively badgering their chosen human punching bags, but we really don't allow that in our house and in order to protect every other family member's right to safety and peace, we give time outs.

I have it found it really important to protect our personal boundaries and it has taught ds to protect his personal boundaries and when someone, a friend or a relative gets aggressive or abusive with him, he removes himself from the situation and suggests they have a time out to chill out. A great example happened last night when dh came home yesterday angry about something that happened in one of his classes and then he started screaming at ds for leaving his toys underfoot (in his play area!) Ds stood up and calmly gave DH a time out which I supported, and though at first DH was stroppy about it and felt like he was being punished, after having some time out DH did feel better and came to apologize to us for taking his bad day out on us.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm not a punching bag and my dd is good at protecting her personal boundaries, too. One is not necessary for the other.

I choose not to do timeouts, but I do believe they can be part of gentle discipline, so I'm not knocking it. Just saying that I don't use them and I don't have a wild house of punching and hitting, and my dd doesn't have boundary issues. And she's a wild one. The younger one is much less high needs.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

We do timeouts but not the way most people think of timeouts. We use them when out 31/2yo gets in a crying jag where he wont let us calm him. I feel he is scared cause he feels out of control. So I gently place him in a chair in the same room as we are in and tell him to take time to himself to calm down. This is the only thing that works for him. I then sit in the same room as him so he knows Im right there if he needs/wants me and he is allowed to come climb on my lap if desired. I dont tell him he is being naughty or anything of that sort. He will sit and stop crying almost right away and will then either come to my lap and cuddle of run off and play acting like he feels tons better. I have tried lots of things to calm him when his emotions get out of control, but they just upset him more and I figured this method out by accident. We also dont call it time out, in fact come to think about it we dont have a name for it at all.
If/when I would try to cuddle him or even sit next to him during these time he would try to kick, thrash and scream harder so I feel this is the most gentle way to help him threw his emotions. This is only needed once every couple weeks but it works for him.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spring Lily* 
Thanks for all the replies!

It looks from teh responses that a lot of you who are against time out have a very specific view of what exactly time out is. I think in practice, parents use a wide variety of time out methods. I can see disagreeing with some of those methods, but not writing off all of them.

I just wanted to quickly respond to this:

You can probably tell by my original post, but I totally disagree that it doesn't teach children anything. I always try to understand the _purpose_ of the misbehavior before I take action. Maybe she's overtired or hungry, trying to get my attention because I've been busy with something, or is angry at me for setting a boundary. Each case has its own course of action. I don't use *punishments*, I use *consequences*. Because they are consequences, I give a warning beforehand and attempt to redirect, in order to give her the best chance at NOT needing a timeout. That way it's not a sudden decision on my part and she can see it coming based on her won decision.

Say DD is in a hyper and wild mood and hits her brother. And then say I give her a warning and help her get involved in another activity, either to calm her down or redirect her energy to a more appropriate activity. A minute later she gets up, goes back over to him, and hits him (this situation is totally made up, btw.) As promised, I put her in time out and say "time out. We don't hit people. You need to calm down for a few minutes." I'll set the timer (mostly just to be aware of how long she's over there). She can yell scream, whatever, I don't limit the noise. After a few minutes, she calms herself down so I come back and we cuddle and talk about what happened. We talk about how hitting hurts, and then we go back to her brother so she can ask him if he's ok. It's not about forcing a "sorry," it's about checking on how your actions affected others and how they are doing.

So it seems to me like if a parent does it thoughtfully, a time out can actually teach self-control, help them identify & express emotions, and encourage empathy and social skills. Sounds pretty AP oriented to me, and very different than punishment.

That sounds like a punishment to me. Your dd does something you don't like, you isolate her, then talk to her about why she was punished and what to do next time. Consequences and punishment are the same thing, consequence is just a prettier word. Punishments/consequences are effective often very at stopping behaviors, that doesn't mean that it is something I agree with or would personally use in my home and it definitely doesn't mean that it is the only way to teach a child how to be thoughtful and considerate. People warn their kids and try to redirect them before they smack them to, that doesn't mean that there will be a bunch of people on the GD board calling spanking a gentle consequence rather than a harsh punishment . The use of warning and redirection doesn't change punishment into something loving and gentle.

I think time-out is much nicer than hitting a kid, but that doesn't change what it is. I also don't believe that time-out can't be AP, I just have a hard time visualizing that. I did use time-out with my dd in two very extreme circumstances when a behavior needed to stop immediately, I didn't know what else to do (and I still don't know what else I could have done). I don't think that makes it gentle and I don't think it taught my dd anything other than that her behavior was so extreme it pushed my buttons and I resorted to a harsh consequence. I am not sure that it was right, but I am sure that I don't want to use it again and I hope I don't come to a time when I feel like I have run out of options again.

If it works for your family and feels right then that is great for you. You asked why people are against it and I answered with my reasons just as other people did. My reasons haven't changed, I am still very much against using any type of punishment, including time-out, in my home because it doesn't teach what I want my dd to learn.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm not a punching bag and my dd is good at protecting her personal boundaries, too. One is not necessary for the other.

I choose not to do timeouts, but I do believe they can be part of gentle discipline, so I'm not knocking it. Just saying that I don't use them and I don't have a wild house of punching and hitting, and my dd doesn't have boundary issues. And she's a wild one. The younger one is much less high needs.

oh geez, no, I didn't mean in _any_ way to imply that one would have to use time outs or else they would be unable to establish boundaries, just that this is what has really worked for us in our family given our circumstances (two working parents, lots of moving around and instability, passionate fired up personalities mixed with mellow meditative people, etc etc )when people are out of control..including grown ups.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

My DD has sent me to think on the stairs when i've been disrespectful in my tone towards her (i'm pregnant and hormonal, i was not perfect even when not pregnant!). And i go. She doesn't use it as a punishment either, she just recognises when a person needs to get away from a situation to get a grip on themselves. She always comes very sweetly to see me after a few moments to check if i need a hug. I always take one


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
oh geez, no, I didn't mean in _any_ way to imply that one would have to use time outs or else they would be unable to establish boundaries, just that this is what has really worked for us in our family given our circumstances (two working parents, lots of moving around and instability, passionate fired up personalities mixed with mellow meditative people, etc etc )when people are out of control..including grown ups.

Ok, sorry for misunderstanding.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
That sounds like a punishment to me. Your dd does something you don't like, you isolate her, then talk to her about why she was punished and what to do next time. Consequences and punishment are the same thing, consequence is just a prettier word. Punishments/consequences are effective often very at stopping behaviors, that doesn't mean that it is something I agree with or would personally use in my home and it definitely doesn't mean that it is the only way to teach a child how to be thoughtful and considerate. People warn their kids and try to redirect them before they smack them to, that doesn't mean that there will be a bunch of people on the GD board calling spanking a gentle consequence rather than a harsh punishment . The use of warning and redirection doesn't change punishment into something loving and gentle.

See, I don't see it as punishment. I see it as discipline. Punishment is a negative consequence, and I don't think time outs are negative. I think of them as neutral. Neither good nor bad.

It's just plain discipline to me.

They serve the purpose of getting a child to cool down, back off and can help the child learn. Teaching a child that the way they are acting is inappropriate and hurtful and that right now, it's time to take a break from the situation and re-evaluate in a bit. In other words, I use them to teach. Not to punish.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The negative thing is from the kids' point of view. So if they think it's neutral, then no it isn't really punishing to them. But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it, although I think that does make a difference as far as the continuum from more punitive to less, and from more gentle to less as well. And punishment is something that is used with the intention to teach, so intending to teach doesn't mean it isn't punishment.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
the negative thing is from the kids' point of view. So if they think it's neutral, then no it isn't really punishing to them. But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it, although i think that does make a difference as far as the continuum from more punitive to less, and from more gentle to less as well. And punishment is something that is used with the intention to teach, so intending to teach doesn't mean it isn't punishment.

ita


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it...

I guess I disagree. To me it's no more punitive than taking away a broom my son is repeatedly (though accidentally) hitting his siblings with. Sure, he may think it's punishment but that doesn't make it so. Heck, even "time-ins" can be considered punishment then, if that's how the child perceives it. Doing normal chores around the house can be "punishment." Even requiring buckling into car seats can be "punishment!"

So no, I don't think it's entirely how kids see things. If I base everything I do upon how my children perceive things then parenting would be near impossible.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
...then parenting would be near impossible.

It is.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

OP, this is definitely one of those topics with a wide variety of opinion. Personally I think time-outs can be part of gentle discipline. I, myself, have not used a time-out but that's because I haven't needed to; however, I am totally open to the concept and will experiment with time-outs if I deem it necessary. I think every child is an individual and for some time-outs work and for others, time-outs don't work. That's true WITHIN families as well.

I've seen wonderful parents use time-outs with their kids. Sometimes they use them for a short period of time and never use them again.

Parenting is one long experiment and you have to be flexible


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
I guess I disagree. To me it's no more punitive than taking away a broom my son is repeatedly (though accidentally) hitting his siblings with. Sure, he may think it's punishment but that doesn't make it so. Heck, even "time-ins" can be considered punishment then, if that's how the child perceives it. Doing normal chores around the house can be "punishment." Even requiring buckling into car seats can be "punishment!"

So no, I don't think it's entirely how kids see things. If I base everything I do upon how my children perceive things then parenting would be near impossible.

It's a part of the puzzle. How we intend things is also part of the puzzle. I think kids probably put together "I hit sister with broom, broom is taken away" better than "I hit sister with broom, I get put in my room." Despite the nice rhyme.







At least my kids seem to understand if I have to protect somene. Anyway, it comes from Alfie Kohn. One of the things he says is that if kids feel like it's a punishment, then from their point of view it is, and that perception matters more than our intent. Our intent matters as well, but as far as the child's response goes, their perception is a bigger issue.

And yes I'd agree that children can feel punished by time-ins, depending on the specifics. It isn't a black/white issue, which is why I said this stuff all seems to fall along a continuum.

And I will repeat that I think time-outs and other gentle punishments can definitely be a part of GD and AP. I just like to give the perspective of how I do things as just that, another perspective. Not the gospel of how all parenting should be for all kids. If I've come across that way, I apologize. Not my intent.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It's a part of the puzzle. How we intend things is also part of the puzzle. I think kids probably put together "I hit sister with broom, broom is taken away" better than "I hit sister with broom, I get put in my room." Despite the nice rhyme.







At least my kids seem to understand if I have to protect somene. Anyway, it comes from Alfie Kohn. One of the things he says is that if kids feel like it's a punishment, then from their point of view it is, and that perception matters more than our intent. Our intent matters as well, but as far as the child's response goes, their perception is a bigger issue.

And yes I'd agree that children can feel punished by time-ins, depending on the specifics. It isn't a black/white issue, which is why I said this stuff all seems to fall along a continuum.

And I will repeat that I think time-outs and other gentle punishments can definitely be a part of GD and AP. I just like to give the perspective of how I do things as just that, another perspective. Not the gospel of how all parenting should be for all kids. If I've come across that way, I apologize. Not my intent.









I agree with all of this. If you have found a way to make time-out a neutral or positive thing in your child's eyes then that is wonderful. I have to question whether they really see it as neutral if you use warnings/threats of time-out in order to get them to change their behavior. I really recommend that you read some of Alfie Kohn's work. I love how it makes you question things and adjust what you do. It is very preachy, but it very good philosophical stuff. When my dd was younger I hated it and worried a lot about control and being in charge, but as my dd has gotten older and I have read more of his works I have started to really agree with a lot of what he says in his books. His book for teachers is especially well written after the first few chapters.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread, but we don't do time-outs (our dd is 4yo) because I find that she usually "acts out" when she's feeling unheard, uncounted, or unconnected. Forcing her to go sit by herself wouldn't help any of that- it would only maker her feel more separate and more angry. When _I_'m really upset about something, I know that I generally need a hug and some understanding while I cool down-- so these are what I try to provide to my daughter.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
Parenting is one long experiment and you have to be flexible









Love this !


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm wondering if i threaten now!







If she is getting a bit out of control (and not just accidental hitting with a broom, in that instance i'd remind her to be careful with it and she would be, but she's nearly 4 so quite self aware once her attention has been drawn to something) i sit by her or offer her a hug (arms open motion) and ask "do you need to sit down and calm down a bit?" and sometimes she says no but takes a hug, and sometimes she says yes and goes off and shouts me to come with her and sometimes (if it's ME she's mad at) she stamps off to the stairs on her own with her cuddle-toy. Only about twice in the last year has she insisted that she doesn't need to calm down when she's behaving in a way which is escalating and cannot continue, but it's my fault for not identifying the moments when she was on the edge of losing control, once it's lost it's lost. In those instances i DID take her to the stairs, but i stayed with her unless she told me to go away, in which case i stayed close by.

Kids are so complicated, i should've got a goldfish! In fact goldfish are too complicated, i should've got a goldfish CRACKER


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## Lohagrace (Sep 21, 2006)

Some kids will try to get heard and they will escalate until many parents shut them down with a punishment, such as time-out. My dd is one of those kids who will never stop escalating. She WILL be heard and she desperately wants to connect when she is that angry and out of control. To send her to her room in a "time out"--a traditional time out "You go sit there for x minutes" or even just a "go away from me until you calm down" only aggravates her needs to connect with me further. She will Bash her door, throw things, draw on the wall. In a "traditional" discipline household she's one of those kids who would be in time out a LOT and then would probably get spanked when she gets totally out of control and starts hitting people and destroying things.

I need to get to her underlying need, which in many cases seems to be a safe place to release pent up emotions. Maybe she saw something at school that upset her. Maybe her brother took her markers one too many times. Who knows. Often i have to lovingly, but firmly restrain her while she rages and have empathy for her. When she calms down she often cries and says things like "i say i hate you mommy but i dont hate you--i love you and don't want you to be mad at me!" When she opens up to me like that, i can see that her openess is only a result of me being willing to be with her and HEAR her no matter what emotion she is expressing or how angry she gets. I really try to get in her world. Sending her away from me only amplifies her feelings of "they don't love me/I'm a jerk". i KNOW for a fact this is how she experiences a "time out" because she has told me (when i've gotten too angry to be with her and made her go away from me, or i've walked away). She needs me to be available when she's scared and out of control.

I know a "let's calm down" thing is different from a time out. But for my dd, it has to be a "time in" with an adult. If i try to shut my door to her and put myself in time out she will break the door down or say "i'm writing on the waaaaaaalllll!" she'll do anything to elicit a reaction and a connection with me--even if its a negative connection.

I know a lot of kids who wont escalate. they will just shut down and go inside themselves and say "they don't want to hear me when i'm angry. I'm bad and wrong". On the outside, when this child emerges from a time out, they may appear calm, but on the inside they are left with the sense that its not ok to express negative emotions and that they are bad and need to be sent away. The inner life of a child is so complicated, i'm just beginning to see it as i have more empathy for my daughter and her strong emotions. Time outs do nothing to foster connection between us.


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