# Behavior chart / reward chart



## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

I've been watching the super nanny shows and they have some awesome ideas for behavior charts. One was a magnetic board covered with blue bubble wrapping paper. they took magnets and glued them to fish and the fish were the reward "tokens". On another family they took little flower pots, put styrofoam in them and used fake flowers as the rewards. they'd stick them in the foam like a potted flower.

We have been using poker chips, but it's a pain. I'd like help coming up with ideas similiar to the above that is easy to access, pleasing to the eye enough to where we can keep it out in the open) and something 4, 6 and 9 year old girls would like (Ie: not dinosaurs or something).

tia!


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

I recently read Unconditional Parenting and it was very against this type of system. It may give children the idea that they're only loved when they do something 'good'. I don't know enough about this 'reward system' but i don't think it is something that we will do in our house,but we also don't punish, do time out or any of the other things they do on that show either.i know it may work for some families and I'm not putting it down. Just thought I'd throw in my .02 cents.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

A great book that addresses this issue:

Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Everyone has their own opinions when it comes to raising kids.

Thanks for sharing, but I really am looking for a more creative way to do the reward system that I can keep in my living area but not look tacky.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

From Library Journal
Kohn, the author of other iconoclastic books, among them You Know What They Say: The Truth About Popular Beliefs ( LJ 8/90), here shows how rewards of all sorts undermine our efforts to teach students, manage workers, and raise children. Although aimed at a general audience, the book is based on extensive research and documented with almost 100 pages of notes and references. The first six review the behaviorist tradition and lay out in a clear and convincing manner Kohn's central argument that "pop behaviorism" is dangerously prevalent in our society. Here Kohn discusses why rewards, including praise, fail to promote lasting behavior change or enhance performance and frequently make things worse. The remaining six chapters examine the effect of rewards and alternatives to them in companies, schools, and the home. Recommended for all types of libraries.
- Mary Chatfield, Angelo State Univ., San Angelo, Tex.
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

I notice this includes praise. Although I've not read this book, I think that's a crock of balogna. What kid doesn't look to having their mom or dad praise them for a job well done?


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

there have actually been many discussions here about praise.... i am not sure you will find many here that are for reward charts and praise but I hope you find what you are looking for


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

When I was little, I wanted to be a cub scout so BAD because I loved the idea of earning merit badges. I never really came to grips with the fact that you had to be a BOY.

I still love tangible evidence of accomplishment. I like to look at the pictures I have painted, the pots I have thrown (er... not thrown on the floor; pottery), the flowers growing in the garden, and I'm proud to see my publication history in print. I feel satisfaction. I feel good about myself. And its not at all about others recognizing things I have done. Its me feeling happy about myself, being able to see what I have completed. Maybe its because I'm so much a kind of person that likes to create with my hands. I love to build things and do just about any kind of art.

A chart that showed my accomplishments would have meant so much to me as a kid. It would have helped my self-esteem. My parents would never have done anything like that, though.

Some kids might be different, and possibly be harmed by a rewards system. I guess you just have to know your child. I also think a rewards system doesn't have to mean that you have gained an adult's approval. The system could be about the child's own goals and interests, developed mainly by the child with the parent's help. I think a child is supported by knowing his parents take an interest in his own goals and dreams, and I also think a child can look back at his star chart or sticker chart or whatever and see how he has progressed, and feel pride.

Our DD is 12 months so we don't know yet whether a rewards chart/ goal monitoring / whatever you call it will be something she is interested in. But if it does seem like she might enjoy such an activity, we're not going to refuse to do it.

So anyway, to answer the original question, I think you might consider using a simple paper/sticker chart, that makes a permanent record, so that your child can look back at it.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
What kid doesn't look to having their mom or dad praise them for a job well done?


What person does not look to having a pat on the back for a job well done. Regardless if it is from a parent, a co-worker, boss, life partner, or even a praise given by themselves!

Amanda, have you thought of perhaps printing out "awards" for the girls? Personalized awards are always put a smile on a childs face.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
I notice this includes praise. Although I've not read this book, I think that's a crock of balogna. What kid doesn't look to having their mom or dad praise them for a job well done?

Since you had mentioned that you felt part of your routine was a pain, you might be willing to look at an alternative point of view? Here is a link to a Mothering Magazine article that outlines downsides to praise/rewards:

From Mothering


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

is this not the gentle discipline forum?

rewards are just the flip side of the punishment coin. they are just as harmful to children's psyches. they have far reaching effects on children's emotional state, how they perceive themselves and the adults around them.

token econnomies aren't even used with those who are severely mentally ill or developmentally disabled anymore. (where they first came into use with human beings in the 1960s) courts (at least in NY) have ruled them inhummane and researches note that they really don't work in the long run.

i think children (and people) deserve more than behaviorism, which was developed for use with animals in labs.


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

We like the idea of awards in our family. Ds 7 has been at school although we are now homeschooling. He really misssed the awards assemblies and merit certificates. Each week we take it in turns to make up certificates for each other. Dd at 4 usually draws a picture of a happy time she had with that family member. Dh and I write a little thank you note to each person about something we notoced, enjoyed or whatever that week. Ds goes to town announcing with the fake microphone and calling each person up to the front of the lounge room to recieve their award.

It is lovely for us adults to have a picture of us taking dd to the zoo with oversized smiles on our faces and 'tanx' underneath. I have also recieved awards for cooking a good meal! taking ds for a haircut etc, not just the big things. It also helps the kids to think of positive aspects of their relationships with each other. They notice and appreciate sharing of toys, getting a bandaid, giving the bigger piece and so on.

Now I see this as enhancing family relationships and not damaging to anyones psyche!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

As with all things "mainstream," rewards charts can be helpful or they can be damaging, depending on how they're used.

I see "doing chores for the sake of family harmony" the ideal, but sometimes people need a little more concrete feedback to get motivated. I pay my older children for doing various household chores- 10 cents for emptying the dishwasher, for example. I've found this has eliminated a lot of the "why should *I* clean up when my sister isn't working??" complaints. Whoever does the work gets paid, period. You don't do your chores, you don't get paid, period. No more nagging from me and a lot more chores are getting done (which means less housework for me!) This might not be the "GD ideal" but it's working well for our family.

If you want to go with a more traditional "behavioral chart" then I'd suggest something very simple- like a paper chart and draw smiley faces in pencil.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I don't like token economies, either as a mom or as a former teacher. I actually worked in a school where we were not allowed to use behavior/incentive charts. These kids behaved better than any kids I'd ever seen in a classroom with behavior charts. The philosophy of my principal was that we should be encouraging intrinsic motivation, rather than extrinsic, or just working for the reward. These systems are being used less and less in more progressive schools.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
is this not the gentle discipline forum?

rewards are just the flip side of the punishment coin. they are just as harmful to children's psyches. they have far reaching effects on children's emotional state, how they perceive themselves and the adults around them.

token econnomies aren't even used with those who are severely mentally ill or developmentally disabled anymore. (where they first came into use with human beings in the 1960s) courts (at least in NY) have ruled them inhummane and researches note that they really don't work in the long run.

i think children (and people) deserve more than behaviorism, which was developed for use with animals in labs.










Here we go again.
Alfie Kohn is not the be- all end all authority on GD.
Many GD families do use positive reinforcement and are happy withthat decision.
I for one have read "punished by rewards" and thought it was reaching.
And while I agree that children deserve more than behaviorism. I dont think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I think it is a big mistake to think of human beings and children in ONLY behavioristic terms. However behaviorism does also have its merits and a balance can be found.( for those interested in trying. not everybody obviously) It doesnt have to be an all or nothing thing.

Can't we PLEASE stop defining GD in such limited terms. . .


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

The reward thing can become a slippery slope, if you don't balance it correctly. I do use the occassional reward, such as a trip to the toy store when potty trained. Yes, this is a bribe, but so what? The problem can come when kids only work or behave for the reward. I have a good friend who has a child that won't do anything without asking what she will get in return. Example: Could you help me clean up the house? and the child asks how much she will get paid. That makes me crazy! We work together in our house and help each other because we are a family, not because mom will pay. Used in a limited way, rewards may work, but it can turn ugly if you aren't careful.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
The reward thing can become a slippery slope, if you don't balance it correctly. I do use the occassional reward, such as a trip to the toy store when potty trained. Yes, this is a bribe, but so what? The problem can come when kids only work or behave for the reward. I have a good friend who has a child that won't do anything without asking what she will get in return. Example: Could you help me clean up the house? and the child asks how much she will get paid. That makes me crazy! We work together in our house and help each other because we are a family, not because mom will pay. Used in a limited way, rewards may work, but it can turn ugly if you aren't careful.

I agree with this. However I seriously cannot think of any single thing we might do that doesnt have some possible drawbacks.
We just have to choose judiciuosly. Know our children. And dont get too caught up in a theory or idea that we arent able and willing to chuck it if it doesnt work or does more harm than good.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
It doesnt have to be an all or nothing thing.

Joline, I agree









Just like with anything, I love that MDC offers parents a forum to respectfully offer insights, suggestions and information about the many faces of GD. There is no one _right_ way to do anything, IMO. Just like with LLL, take what works for you and your family and leave the rest


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
A chart that showed my accomplishments would have meant so much to me as a kid. It would have helped my self-esteem. My parents would never have done anything like that, though.

For a while, Rain had a chart with all the stuff we planned to do each day written on it, and she would put an X in each box as she completed it. I think it satisfied some need for her, although she lost interest fairly quickly. Now she does lists, which is what I do, too. I love to look at my list and see things crossed off, because I do feel like I've made a dent in all the stuff I want to do... and I think I end up getting more done, too.

Lists or charts of accomplishments are fine, and you can use them without getting into rewards. Crossing stuff off the list is reward enough here... and we make our own lists, usually. Rain does ask me to make lists for her sometimes, like if she's home alone or if her room is really messy, and I do, and she crosses things out.

Dar


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Joline, I agree









Just like with anything, I love that MDC offers parents a forum to respectfully offer insights, suggestions and information about the many faces of GD. There is no one _right_ way to do anything, IMO. Just like with LLL, take what works for you and your family and leave the rest










I very much agree.As i read the different topics on this board i find I agree with many different opinions.It is a great oppurtunity to learn from others, and as the pp said take what works for your family and leave what doesn't.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)




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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

As a teacher, I would encourage you to really examine why you want to do behavior charts for your own children. I used them successfully when I had a class of 29 2nd graders, 10 of whom were SpEd and 12 bilingual. It helps to have something concrete and tangible for them to look at.

I guess I would ask you, "What behavior are you trying to encourage or extinguish?" and is that the BEST way through which you can achieve it. And, why? Because it's easier in the short term or long term?

We use goals and consequences a lot here. If we want to go out for an adventure (library, hike, etc), then we need to clean up our messes first. If, while we're out, they have really poor behavior, we'll leave and come home. They know this and we talk about why we make bad choices; ie. tired, hungry, etc. It's not a punishment and they know that. But, it's a consequence; ie. if you keep hitting someone w/a stick, then you'll have to go home b/c it's unsafe behavior.

I try really hard never to equate behavior w/personality, kwim? Today, my little guy Sharpied all over my new carpet. After my internal freak out, I told him I was very sad that he did that and would he please help me to clean up the mess. "Yes, I'm angry but I still love you very much."









Well, not the answers the OP was looking for but my take anyways.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
Everyone has their own opinions when it comes to raising kids.

Thanks for sharing, but I really am looking for a more creative way to do the reward system that I can keep in my living area but not look tacky.

Why don't you have them help you design it? That way, they'll have more ownership of it. It will be more like their personal tally of their recent accomplishments than you imposing your opinion of their behavior on them. I love to have a list of what I need to do - the satisfaction of crossing off an item once accomplished is unmeasurable.

Though I guess if they help you there's no guarantee on the appearance, though at least you won't be responsible.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
The reward thing can become a slippery slope, if you don't balance it correctly. I do use the occassional reward, such as a trip to the toy store when potty trained. Yes, this is a bribe, but so what? The problem can come when kids only work or behave for the reward. I have a good friend who has a child that won't do anything without asking what she will get in return. Example: Could you help me clean up the house? and the child asks how much she will get paid. That makes me crazy! We work together in our house and help each other because we are a family, not because mom will pay. Used in a limited way, rewards may work, but it can turn ugly if you aren't careful.


I think potty use is the one area where even AK thinks rewarding can be ok (because it is used to get a child used to something or more likely over a fear) and no one spends their life going "well I am not going to use the bathroom unless I get a reward."







.

Other than that I never use rewards at home. I think they are fine in a work place and can be OK at school which to me is like a work place. I believe the greatest criticisim of AK's work has been done in disproving his notion that workplace rewards are not effective.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumto2*
Now I see this as enhancing family relationships and not damaging to anyones psyche!

the research certainly doesn't support this. the research that i read (and was taught about when i worked in human services) showed that they have very long range negative affects on human beings, which is the main reason there use was discontinued in state supervisied facilities for people with disabilities. they were deemed inappropriate based on the guidelines the state must follow in how to treat people in those facilities in a hummane and respectful way.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I believe the greatest criticisim of AK's work has been done in disproving his notion that workplace rewards are not effective.

Effective at what? Encouraging employees to be truely happy in their lives and be content, competent loving humans?

Or effective at making workers produce more?

Your statement really depends on the goal in mind.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Effective at what? Encouraging employees to be truely happy in their lives and be content, competent loving humans?

Or effective at making workers produce more?

Your statement really depends on the goal in mind.

I have never heard of a workplace which was interested in creating truely happy and competent loving humans.
Workplaces want people to accomplish something.
As parents we have the added complication of wanting to encourage our children to be content, competent loving humans AND also sometimes needing to accomplish (or teach) something.
But I for one do not see these goals as mutually exclusive.


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## KieranD (Dec 7, 2005)

To the OP:

You might take a set of fairy stickers (like Froud/the Lady Cottingham fairies) and stick them all to magnets (you can get thin adhesive magnetic sheeting at craft stores), cut the shapes out and then set up a small magnet board where the fairies can dance on the toadstools and such. The more fairies there are, the bigger the party!

When I was a child I HATED seeing my negative behaviour displayed like this (so I would never, ever recommend a "frowny face board" or the like), but I loved seeing my good behaviour displayed. It made me feel accomplished. YMMV. There are lots of ways of letting kids know you're proud of their hard work.







Good luck with the crafting!

-Kieran


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Joline, I was making the point that workplaces have only the goal of creating compliant workers, and will do so at the expense of a person's well-being.

It is not really a valid discreditation of Alfie Kohn's ideas about what rewards do to people, and in my opinion was a rather pointless thing to study. But I'm not a manager, I'm a parent. And as such (as you must know by now) I am a facilitator, mentor, and advocate - but not a manager or "teacher" in the traditional sense.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
and no one spends their life going "well I am not going to use the bathroom unless I get a reward."







.
.

well......i do remember awhile back, someone on these boards said they *still* could not go poo unless they had some chocolate! something to do with their M&M rewards as a kid; i forget the whole original thing. but that has stuck with me!

pamela
~who uses sticker charts here, too~


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Joline, I was making the point that workplaces have only the goal of creating compliant workers, and will do so at the expense of a person's well-being.

It is not really a valid discreditation of Alfie Kohn's ideas about what rewards do to people, and in my opinion was a rather pointless thing to study. But I'm not a manager, I'm a parent. And as such (as you must know by now) I am a facilitator, mentor, and advocate - but not a manager or "teacher" in the traditional sense.

I understand this. All I am saying is that some of us do not see these roles as mutually exclusive.
And if information is availible which challenges his assumptions that rewards do not work in the workplace. It is only logical that his assumptions that rewards do not work altogether are equally controversial. After all it was primarily his research in the workplace that he translated to apply to schools and parenting.
But this is valid and worthwhile to me as I am a parent AND a manager and teacher.

Joline


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

My husband received a bonus at work this year. It was a reward for a job well done. I have no doubt that my husband will continue to do a good job at work simply because he enjoys his work, not because he expects to receive another bonus.

Last year his bonus was a week at a timeshare in Florida donated by his bosses (the couple that own the company). We had a fabulous time and once again were reminded of how good the company is to him. We don't expect to get another week at a timeshare, but dh will continue to go to work and do his best anyway.

When Ramona was potty training, she went through some times when she was simply not interested in stopping what she was doing to go to the bathroom and would just pee on the floor. But she refused to wear a diaper. I made a chart, and every time she peed in the potty she got a smiley sticker. I told her that if she got 10 smilies in one week, I would take her out for ice cream. We did this for two weeks. During the third we she lost interest in the chart but continued to pee in the potty.

Maybe if you teach a child that they should be rewarded for everything, that would be a problem. But if you reward children for occasional special accomplishments or for putting forth their best effort, I think it makes children feel good and is fun.

How about keeping a box of buttons and scrap clothing, and let your girls add pieces of clothing or accessories to a paper doll?

Namaste!


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mercyn*
well......i do remember awhile back, someone on these boards said they *still* could not go poo unless they had some chocolate! something to do with their M&M rewards as a kid; i forget the whole original thing. but that has stuck with me!

pamela
~who uses sticker charts here, too~

I guess that could be true, in an extreme case where the child was given a reward every time they use the potty. We don't do this. We get one gift at the end of the process, rather than constant reinforcements during training. In my 10 years working with preschool children, my own kids and friends/family children I've never heard of a case like this. I guess it could happen, but would be pretty rare.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
It is only logical that his assumptions that rewards do not work altogether are equally controversial.

_To what end?_ The effectiveness of rewards can't meaningfully be discussed without stating the goal.

It is never my goal to make DS do what I want him to. So I don't subscribe to any idea that rewards are effective. They are counterproductive and mutually-exclusive to _my_ goals.

I understand that you have different goals than I do. But making blanket statements about the effectiveness of rewards when you are really only talking about how it relates to _your_ goals isn't really painting a fair picture IMO.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
What person does not look to having a pat on the back for a job well done. Regardless if it is from a parent, a co-worker, boss, life partner, or even a praise given by themselves!

Amanda, have you thought of perhaps printing out "awards" for the girls? Personalized awards are always put a smile on a childs face.


I could only imagine hundreds of little pieces of paper exclaiming "good job" tucked everywhere.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
i think children (and people) deserve more than behaviorism, which was developed for use with animals in labs.










yes yes yes! I really dislike that behaviorism is used on kids- and people seem to think there's no other way!

To the op- have you considered having a "reward chart" that the kids are in charge of? THEY get to put a sticker on when THEY feel they deserve it?
That way, they still have the *right* motivation for doing the "right" thing. THey have their own motivation for doing it. Not to please you, but to please themselves. Internal motivation vs. external motivation.
AND they will have the sense of accomplishment that comes with a "reward chart".
I think you may be pleasantly surprised at how much MORE motivated they become when THEY are the ones who determine what deserves a sticker and what doesn't.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Since you had mentioned that you felt part of your routine was a pain, you might be willing to look at an alternative point of view? Here is a link to a Mothering Magazine article that outlines downsides to praise/rewards:

From Mothering


I didn't say the idea was a pain, i said the poker chips are. it's difficult to get the jars out, dispense and take chips away. hence i was looking for something easier and cuter than jars of multi colored poker chips all over my kitchen counter.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
is this not the gentle discipline forum?

rewards are just the flip side of the punishment coin. they are just as harmful to children's psyches. they have far reaching effects on children's emotional state, how they perceive themselves and the adults around them.

token econnomies aren't even used with those who are severely mentally ill or developmentally disabled anymore. (where they first came into use with human beings in the 1960s) courts (at least in NY) have ruled them inhummane and researches note that they really don't work in the long run.

i think children (and people) deserve more than behaviorism, which was developed for use with animals in labs.











What? A reward system is not allowed because this is gentle discipline? i thought a reward system WAS gentle discipline?

More and more I find myself feeling pushed out of these forums for not conforming. I thought that's what mothering was about? Families learning better ways that aren't quit mainstream to raise their children?

The pro-spankers didn't give me this much gumph for trying to perfect a reward system.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
As with all things "mainstream," rewards charts can be helpful or they can be damaging, depending on how they're used.

I see "doing chores for the sake of family harmony" the ideal, but sometimes people need a little more concrete feedback to get motivated. I pay my older children for doing various household chores- 10 cents for emptying the dishwasher, for example. I've found this has eliminated a lot of the "why should *I* clean up when my sister isn't working??" complaints. Whoever does the work gets paid, period. You don't do your chores, you don't get paid, period. No more nagging from me and a lot more chores are getting done (which means less housework for me!) This might not be the "GD ideal" but it's working well for our family.

If you want to go with a more traditional "behavioral chart" then I'd suggest something very simple- like a paper chart and draw smiley faces in pencil.


I have tiered rewards. Right now with the horrid poker chips, white is doing something just slightly above required. Like, if i ask you to clean your room, you don't get a token for doing it. it's your room, your job period. but i do give you a white token for doing an outstanding job at your chore. i also give white tokens for doing things without back talking. blue tokens are worth more, say you can pick a meal and to earn one you have to do a chore that is not your usual chores. reds are for completely outstanding performances and going above and beyond the normal call of childhood.

it is working out really well. but i also make them buy things with tokens. movies, tv time, holding a pet, having a snack are all worth white or blue tokens and red ones can be used to go to the movies.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*

Though I guess if they help you there's no guarantee on the appearance, though at least you won't be responsible.

haha, good call.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KieranD*
To the OP:

You might take a set of fairy stickers (like Froud/the Lady Cottingham fairies) and stick them all to magnets (you can get thin adhesive magnetic sheeting at craft stores), cut the shapes out and then set up a small magnet board where the fairies can dance on the toadstools and such. The more fairies there are, the bigger the party!

When I was a child I HATED seeing my negative behaviour displayed like this (so I would never, ever recommend a "frowny face board" or the like), but I loved seeing my good behaviour displayed. It made me feel accomplished. YMMV. There are lots of ways of letting kids know you're proud of their hard work.







Good luck with the crafting!

-Kieran

the fairy idea is awesome.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
yes yes yes! I really dislike that behaviorism is used on kids- and people seem to think there's no other way!

To the op- have you considered having a "reward chart" that the kids are in charge of? THEY get to put a sticker on when THEY feel they deserve it?
That way, they still have the *right* motivation for doing the "right" thing. THey have their own motivation for doing it. Not to please you, but to please themselves. Internal motivation vs. external motivation.
AND they will have the sense of accomplishment that comes with a "reward chart".
I think you may be pleasantly surprised at how much MORE motivated they become when THEY are the ones who determine what deserves a sticker and what doesn't.


I never thoguht of doing that, but I'll certainly try it out!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
it is working out really well. but i also make them buy things with tokens. movies, tv time, holding a pet, having a snack are all worth white or blue tokens

When you say having a snack, do you mean a treat, like a hot fudge sundae, or do you mean a snack, like "Hey mom, lunch was two hours ago and I'm hungry, can I have a banana?"

Namaste!


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

"it is working out really well. but i also make them buy things with tokens. movies, tv time, holding a pet, having a snack are all worth white or blue tokens"


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
When you say having a snack, do you mean a treat, like a hot fudge sundae, or do you mean a snack, like "Hey mom, lunch was two hours ago and I'm hungry, can I have a banana?"

Namaste!

bananas are a given. things like ice cream, pudding, candy, etc. have to have a token cashed in. Same thing with dinner, i don't make them buy dinner with tokens but they can cash in a blue token to get to pick what dinner is.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
I notice this includes praise. Although I've not read this book, I think that's a crock of balogna. What kid doesn't look to having their mom or dad praise them for a job well done?

a kid who's parents don't praise them all the time?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Sounds like you have your own little cash economy going on.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I guess I just do not really see the point in going to the hassle of something like this. I also think it is potentially harmful, but regardless it just seems like a lot of work when in reality, all kids (who are physically and mentally capable of doing so) learn to use the potty eventually with or without sticker charts or whatever. They WANT to learn at some point. Some later than their parents want I guess which is when the M&Ms get pulled out, eh? I am a pretty organized person but cannot see myself hassling with something like that.

I got several "awards" at work in in school. If the "award" was valuable enough to me, my only motivation was to APPEAR to be productive, happy, organized, whatever. If I happened to be anyway, great, but sometimes I wasn't and got very good at making myself look like I was to get the prize. Whatever the case, I am much much happier now to be some of those things for my own reasons than I ever was to get the cookie. I see no reason for external rewards.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Why don't you have them help you design it? That way, they'll have more ownership of it. It will be more like their personal tally of their recent accomplishments than you imposing your opinion of their behavior on them. I love to have a list of what I need to do - the satisfaction of crossing off an item once accomplished is unmeasurable.

Though I guess if they help you there's no guarantee on the appearance, though at least you won't be responsible.

This is what we did. Our son helped us make the chart and the spinner. He got to spin for a special activity when he got a certain number of stars. He LOVED it and it really helped us through a very difficult time buy putting some basics in place that are now habit. We made sure that he knew from the get go that this was not going on forever and as such it was never an issue when it stopped.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
a kid who's parents don't praise them all the time?

I think that too much praise or inappropriate praise isn't that great, but boy, I sure wouln't want to live in a house where no one ever got an occasional positive verbal stroke. I know I like to be verbally appreciated, as long as it's genuine. I think honest praise in moderation is good.

namaste!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*

it is working out really well. but i also make them buy things with tokens. movies, tv time, holding a pet, having a snack are all worth white or blue tokens and red ones can be used to go to the movies.


Eek!


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Eek!

oh come on. I didn't post this to have people disect my choices. they're my kids, this works for us and i'll do it until the cows come home not only because they're my children to raise as I feel best, but because I, personally, like it and feel it works.

I wanted ideas to make somethign cuter than a token jar! that's it.

thanks to those who actually contributed ideas and support. i am going to be able to incorporate all of your ideas and will follow up with pics if i can.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, you are posting on a gentle discipline forum. GD does not just mean not hitting. Making children perform in order to hold a pet or choose thier food is not gentle. You are right, you can do whatever you want within the limits of the law, but I can also state an opinion on it if you post it on a public message board. I am sorry you are feeling attacked.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
_To what end?_ The effectiveness of rewards can't meaningfully be discussed without stating the goal.

It is never my goal to make DS do what I want him to. So I don't subscribe to any idea that rewards are effective. They are counterproductive and mutually-exclusive to _my_ goals.

I understand that you have different goals than I do. But making blanket statements about the effectiveness of rewards when you are really only talking about how it relates to _your_ goals isn't really painting a fair picture IMO.

I think it is a given that rewards are tools towards the goal of changing children's behavior.
Obviously if you arent interested in changing your child's behavior, they wouldnt even be worth discussing.
The whole "understood" goal of the thread is changing of childrens behavior (otherwise why the chart in the first place?)
As such I think blank statements as to the "effectiveness" or not of rewards etc. . . are taken for granted as referring to how effective they are in helping children change their behavior.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Making children perform in order to hold a pet or choose thier food is not gentle.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gentle
gen·tle Audio pronunciation of "gentle" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jntl)
adj. gen·tler, gen·tlest

1. Considerate or kindly in disposition; amiable and tender.
2. Not harsh or severe; mild and soft: a gentle scolding; a gentle tapping at the window.
3. Easily managed or handled; docile: a gentle horse.
4. Not steep or sudden; gradual: a gentle incline.
5.
1. Of good family; wellborn: a child of gentle birth.
2. Suited to one of good breeding; refined and polite: a gentle greeting to a stranger.
6. Archaic. Noble; chivalrous: a gentle knight.

Perform seems harsh. They're not asked to "perform", and I still fail to see how this is not gentle.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gentle
gen·tle Audio pronunciation of "gentle" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jntl)
adj. gen·tler, gen·tlest

1. Considerate or kindly in disposition; amiable and tender.
2. Not harsh or severe; mild and soft: a gentle scolding; a gentle tapping at the window.
3. Easily managed or handled; docile: a gentle horse.
4. Not steep or sudden; gradual: a gentle incline.
5.
1. Of good family; wellborn: a child of gentle birth.
2. Suited to one of good breeding; refined and polite: a gentle greeting to a stranger.
6. Archaic. Noble; chivalrous: a gentle knight.

Perform seems harsh. They're not asked to "perform", and I still fail to see how this is not gentle.

Me too. And oh gosh am I sick of seeing great "Gentle" moms being told by other moms that they are just not "gd" or "gentle" or whatever.

Live up to your own definition of "gentle" by all means. But please stop applying to everybody else.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Threads like this one make me wish that the GD forum could be subdivided into two separate forums, one for the TCS/never-controlling folks and one for the folks who see a parent's role as sometimes including directing/changing children's behavior. It seems like every discussion these days boils down to a philosophical standoff. How helpful is that?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Me too. And oh gosh am I sick of seeing great "Gentle" moms being told by other moms that they are just not "gd" or "gentle" or whatever.

Live up to your own definition of "gentle" by all means. But please stop applying to everybody else.

Please tell me how withholding a pet or food choices because your child did not earn enough poker chips is amiable, tender, kindly, or considerate.....or gentle according to the very handy definition posted here.

You can be tired of my opinion but I am still allowed to have it and speak it. I have not attacked anyone. I have done nothing to violate the user agreement. This is a discussion, isn't it? That means people talk about issues. What is the point of a discussion on GD if only people who agree to your set parameters of GD are allowed to participate? I am not asking any of you to shut up. I am not saying I am tired of hearing any of you speak. I am not making condensending snarky remarks about being "sick" of certain people. I read your posts with great interest. Many of your experiences have given me a lot to think about. I value your posts. It is very clear that my posts are of zero value to you. That is fine with me. But please do not tell me to stop posting unless I have done something to violate the user agreement.

As far as I know there is no checklist of what exactly "GD" means. We do know some things that are definately not. Many things are greyer. That is the whole point of discussion. We cannot "apply" definitions if they are not 100% clear. So who decides? You? You have decided that my opinion on what is GD is incorrect? I did not think that was how it worked. I do not even think it would be useful to have a black and white definition. We are all here to learn and grow....or at least that is my impression. Why is the idea of challenging your ideas threatening? Mine get challenged all of the time. That is a good thing in my book.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
As far as I know there is no checklist of what exactly "GD" means.

Not calling you out, YV, but this is precisely why I don't think that people should, in these discussions on this forum, tell others that what they are doing is "not GD." Within the parameters of posters here who consider themselves GD, there is a lot of variance in what they feel is GD. Since there's no list to refer to, I think it would be a lot more appropriate for people to simply explain why they wouldn't choose to do something in their family rather than telling someone else it's "not GD."

Namaste!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Not calling you out, YV, but this is precisely why I don't think that people should, in these discussions on this forum, tell others that what they are doing is "not GD." Within the parameters of posters here who consider themselves GD, there is a lot of variance in what they feel is GD. Since there's no list to refer to, I think it would be a lot more appropriate for people to simply explain why they wouldn't choose to do something in their family rather than telling someone else it's "not GD."

Namaste!

You know what? You are right on that. Thank you for pointing that out. That was my bad. I should have said that I do not think that the particular specifics of the OPs rules for tokens is very gentle. OTOH, while I do not think charts are something I would do, I would not say that the concept is incompatable with GD. However, my opinion is that the specifics surrounding this particular example are a bit disturbing to me and quite different than a little incentive boost for a potty learning toddler (for example).


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Me too. And oh gosh am I sick of seeing great "Gentle" moms being told by other moms that they are just not "gd" or "gentle" or whatever.

Live up to your own definition of "gentle" by all means. But please stop applying to everybody else.


I used to read these forums sooooooo often when my kiddos were tiny. I started cloth diapering because of mothering forums, I used cloth pull ups cuz of mothering. i used these forums and website to guyide myself into a homebirth. we did baby wearing, co-sleeping (still do this one), etc.

I worried that one day some of us crunchy mommies would be seen as not so crunchy, it was just a huge shock to see this so soon.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5*
Threads like this one make me wish that the GD forum could be subdivided into two separate forums, one for the TCS/never-controlling folks and one for the folks who see a parent's role as sometimes including directing/changing children's behavior. It seems like every discussion these days boils down to a philosophical standoff. How helpful is that?











I know that, a long time ago, before I was a registered poster and was instead just a lurker, there was a big huge discussion about why TCS couldn't have its own forum/subforum. I don't remember what the reason was, but I know that they tried having one super-mega TCS thread where ALL TCS-related discussion was to go. Don't know what happened to that, but I imagine that it just got unwieldy.

Anyway, the reason that you stated above is why I tend to avoid the GD board and visit just in fits and starts when a particular (and usually particularly titillating) thread gets my attention. I have found that it's hard to get advice on specific strategies or actions to take for specific problems or issues because so many of the comments are of the "parents should never try to direct their kids' actions"/TCS kind. I am not a TCS parent and I never will be no matter how many times TCS parents state their case, so although I'm sure their advice is offered with the best of intentions, it's of no use to me because my parenting paradigm is so fundamentally different from theirs.

I really wish MDC _would_ create a TCS forum so that I could feel a little more at home in the GD-for-the-rest-of-us forum (although I don't define my parenting as GD, I do think I could learn a lot here).

Namaste!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I am not a TCS parent and I never will be no matter how many times TCS parents state their case, so although I'm sure their advice is offered with the best of intentions, it's of no use to me because my parenting paradigm is so fundamentally different from theirs.


Well, I know this is OT, but where do you draw the line then? There are all shades of GD from TCS on one side to everything-as-long-as-I-don't-spank side. So you get rid of one population of people you don't like but then the next-extreme group starts to bug someone and you have to start a new forum for them. Not to mention what to do with those people that don't coerse but are not TCS....like me









But seriously, I guess I would really hate to see that for many reasons. For one, I have been around here for a long time (I just do not post much). When i first started reading when I was pg, I thought I would be spanking parent. Reading on here rescued me (and dd) from that fate. But it was also reading on here that my mind got opened to the concept of non-coersion. It took a VERY LONG TIME for me to even read something like that and not have my crazy-meter start beeping. I probably would have said exactly what you said above. But things change over time. If all of the diversity was taken out of this forum, people like me would have never been open to another persepctive.

I too see that some threads get into a long philosphical discussion, usually long after the original issue has been hashed to pieces. I do not see much harm in that. People who have ceased to find useful info can just quit reading. When I post things about any subject, I get some replies I do not agree with. It is really not hard to weed through and pick what I like and maybe even learn something new.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5*
Threads like this one make me wish that the GD forum could be subdivided into two separate forums, one for the TCS/never-controlling folks and one for the folks who see a parent's role as sometimes including directing/changing children's behavior. It seems like every discussion these days boils down to a philosophical standoff. How helpful is that?

I think you may be right that the stand-offs and the debating aren't always helpful. _But...._

Acutal dialogue often is helpful. The sharing of ideas and listening to each other; the exploration of ideas without defensiveness, without attacking, with openness of mind. The things one can learn from dialogue!

If it weren't for the very, very many points of view and ideas expressed here-all of them-I wouldn't have learned what I needed to know to be a gentle parent. If it weren't for being open-minded enough to read about and discuss ideas that didn't match the ones I already had or that didn't make sense to me, I wouldn't have grown as much as a gentle parent. So I don't think the answer is to have segregated forums where folks with this idea can only speak and offer help here, and folks with that idea speak and offer help over there. I think the answer is to speak about these things with dignity and an open mind and an open heart-on the part of all people involved. And that is not the same as agreeing with each other on everything.

And given the choice between not having the opportunity to hear an idea, and listening to or being involved in a heated debate about an idea-I'll take the debate any day. Being exposed to new ideas helps me grow, and even repeatedly hearing ideas I disagree with is an opportunity for growth in various ways.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Well said, YV. I don't know where I would draw the line. And my intention is not to kick out TCSers. I just see it kinda like ... well, like a Christian telling me to pray about something if I asked for advice. I would never do that, and I wouldn't want my original question to become a debate about whether Christianity or Buddhism is better. I would prefer that a Christian recognize that I am Buddhist and don't wish to be converted. In the same vein, someone who posts about a behavior chart most likely is not looking to be converted to TCS and probably doesn't appreciate a debate about why her approach is not TCS.

So, I don't know where to draw the line. Yes, it's good to have your horizons broadened, but at some point it just becomes going around in circles, trying to declare a certain worldview the winner. I don't know. I don't have the answer.

Namaste!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Please tell me how withholding a pet or food choices because your child did not earn enough poker chips is amiable, tender, kindly, or considerate.....or gentle according to the very handy definition posted here.

You can be tired of my opinion but I am still allowed to have it and speak it. I have not attacked anyone. I have done nothing to violate the user agreement. This is a discussion, isn't it? That means people talk about issues. What is the point of a discussion on GD if only people who agree to your set parameters of GD are allowed to participate? I am not asking any of you to shut up. I am not saying I am tired of hearing any of you speak. I am not making condensending snarky remarks about being "sick" of certain people. I read your posts with great interest. Many of your experiences have given me a lot to think about. I value your posts. It is very clear that my posts are of zero value to you. That is fine with me. But please do not tell me to stop posting unless I have done something to violate the user agreement.

As far as I know there is no checklist of what exactly "GD" means. We do know some things that are definately not. Many things are greyer. That is the whole point of discussion. We cannot "apply" definitions if they are not 100% clear. So who decides? You? You have decided that my opinion on what is GD is incorrect? I did not think that was how it worked. I do not even think it would be useful to have a black and white definition. We are all here to learn and grow....or at least that is my impression. Why is the idea of challenging your ideas threatening? Mine get challenged all of the time. That is a good thing in my book.


It's not so much that I am tired of anybody's opinion. The problem arises in that we are all trying our best to be gentle with our children within our own framework. So by co-opting words we are all claiming for ourselves and applying them only to your own view you are not just sharing your opinion of what you would or would not do in your circumstance. Or even stating that you think there would be a better option.
You are telling other parents that they are not who and what they claim to be.
I think that all ofour opinions can be shared and welcomed without telling others that they are "not GD" or "not AP" or even just "not gentle" or any number of ways where the label or definition we claim to ourselves is redefined in a way that tells us we are not included.
It is all a matter of wording an opinion as an opinion.

And I 100% agree with your last paragraph. Things are not 100% clear. And there is tons of gray. SO cant we share information in a way that doesnt claim ownership of the whole concept of Gd?
I also think this an excellent forum to share and debate etc. . .
We can debate our versions of GD and what is more gentle and less gentle and more coercive and less coercive and who does and does not incorporate some behaviorism and really go to town sharing our different views and that is all a wonderful thing. UP until the point where we co-opt self-described labels.
So no, I am not tired of hearing your ideas at all. I find them very articulate and profound and insightful even when I dont share them.
I am just tired of moms being told they are not "gentle" or "GD" or "AP" or "Attached"
Because this claims ownership of a label that is not owned by any of us, that is self applied only.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
It's not so much that I am tired of anybody's opinion. The problem arises in that we are all trying our best to be gentle with our children within our own framework. So by co-opting words we are all claiming for ourselves and applying them only to your own view you are not just sharing your opinion of what you would or would not do in your circumstance. Or even stating that you think there would be a better option.
You are telling other parents that they are not who and what they claim to be.
I think that all ofour opinions can be shared and welcomed without telling others that they are "not GD" or "not AP" or even just "not gentle" or any number of ways where the label or definition we claim to ourselves is redefined in a way that tells us we are not included.
It is all a matter of wording an opinion as an opinion.

And I 100% agree with your last paragraph. Things are not 100% clear. And there is tons of gray. SO cant we share information in a way that doesnt claim ownership of the whole concept of Gd?
I also think this an excellent forum to share and debate etc. . .
We can debate our versions of GD and what is more gentle and less gentle and more coercive and less coercive and who does and does not incorporate some behaviorism and really go to town sharing our different views and that is all a wonderful thing. UP until the point where we co-opt self-described labels.
So no, I am not tired of hearing your ideas at all. I find them very articulate and profound and insightful even when I dont share them.
I am just tired of moms being told they are not "gentle" or "GD" or "AP" or "Attached"
Because this claims ownership of a label that is not owned by any of us, that is self applied only.

Yeah. I had to correct myself in that I said something was not gentle instead of saying I think it is not gentle.

This is probably one of the most difficult subjects because it is hard not to take things personally.

I try very hard to stay out of the discussions that the OP does not want to hear a different view. And I probably should have stayed out of this one. I have seen time and time again someone post something about a book or method that I know most people here do not agree with and it gets very few posts probably because people do the same that I do.....worry that by saying we disagree with it will only end in hurt feelings. But then as I watch the post slip to the bottom of the page I wonder about the poster and if he/she might have been interested in hearing another opinion. Maybe they walk away thinking that since no one spoke against it that it is something many people do agree with. It seems to be a fine line. And when the line is too fine to discern, I would rather err on the side of opening the discussion and taking the risk because I know that at least I might learn something and so might the OP.

So in the case of this thread we have an OP that wanted some ideas. In her original post she did not state that she was not open to hearing other ideas. However, she did imply that in later posts and I suppose I should ahve just stayed out. OTOH if everyone that disagreed stayed out and the OP was open to other suggestions or challenges of the idea, she might have left the thread getting a few new sticker ideas and thinking the charts are A-OK with all/most GD parents......

I try and keep my bantering to people I know can take it without feeling too personal with the goal of mutual exchange of ideas. But we are on a public board and sometimes when I am bantering with those peopls, innocent bystanders get caught in the fray......


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I have seen time and time again someone post something about a book or method that I know most people here do not agree with and it gets very few posts probably because people do the same that I do.....worry that by saying we disagree with it will only end in hurt feelings. But then as I watch the post slip to the bottom of the page I wonder about the poster and if he/she might have been interested in hearing another opinion. Maybe they walk away thinking that since no one spoke against it that it is something many people do agree with. It seems to be a fine line.

I wish we could have a situation where people state their idea and that's that, without all the ensuing debate. You could state that you thought that book/method B was better than book/method A and why, I could state that I thought book/method A was great and why, and the thread could go on. And no one else would jump in to try to prove A or B better. They would just state their opinion. I think that would be a good way to introduce new ideas without the thread degenerating into philsophical debates and conversionism.

I, personally, love to debate, but sometimes it's appropriate and sometimes it's not.

Btw, YV, I'm not trying to zing you as some infractor of unwritten forum rules. I'm responding a lot to you because you have a lot of interesting things to say.

And why are you Yoopervegan? What's Yooper?

Namaste!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I wish we could have a situation where people state their idea and that's that, without all the ensuing debate. You could state that you thought that book/method B was better than book/method A and why, I could state that I thought book/method A was great and why, and the thread could go on. And no one else would jump in to try to prove A or B better. They would just state their opinion. I think that would be a good way to introduce new ideas without the thread degenerating into philsophical debates and conversionism.

I, personally, love to debate, but sometimes it's appropriate and sometimes it's not.

Btw, YV, I'm not trying to zing you as some infractor of unwritten forum rules. I'm responding a lot to you because you have a lot of interesting things to say.

And why are you Yoopervegan? What's Yooper?

Namaste!

Yeah, that would be nice..... But you know even when you are resolved to do it, it is really hard to not come back when someone else replies with "yeah, but that would never work because....." and you have dealt with the because and you know what you would do.... Then it ends up in a train wreck







I actually do not mind the ongoing debates. It really makes me think. But I do see how people can get lost in that. And I am really good at not taking things personally. I do not see debate as personal attack. But I understand why some people do. So what is the right answer?

A Yooper is someone that lives in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Basically think terribly conservative tundra. But it is beautiful and cheap


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Yeah. I had to correct myself in that I said something was not gentle instead of saying I think it is not gentle.

This is probably one of the most difficult subjects because it is hard not to take things personally.

I try very hard to stay out of the discussions that the OP does not want to hear a different view. And I probably should have stayed out of this one. I have seen time and time again someone post something about a book or method that I know most people here do not agree with and it gets very few posts probably because people do the same that I do.....worry that by saying we disagree with it will only end in hurt feelings. But then as I watch the post slip to the bottom of the page I wonder about the poster and if he/she might have been interested in hearing another opinion. Maybe they walk away thinking that since no one spoke against it that it is something many people do agree with. It seems to be a fine line. And when the line is too fine to discern, I would rather err on the side of opening the discussion and taking the risk because I know that at least I might learn something and so might the OP.

So in the case of this thread we have an OP that wanted some ideas. In her original post she did not state that she was not open to hearing other ideas. However, she did imply that in later posts and I suppose I should ahve just stayed out. OTOH if everyone that disagreed stayed out and the OP was open to other suggestions or challenges of the idea, she might have left the thread getting a few new sticker ideas and thinking the charts are A-OK with all/most GD parents......

I try and keep my bantering to people I know can take it without feeling too personal with the goal of mutual exchange of ideas. But we are on a public board and sometimes when I am bantering with those peopls, innocent bystanders get caught in the fray......

I dont think it is even about staying out of certain discussions.
After all there was one excellent post about having the chart be self directed by the child. Which is a new idea and possibly helpful if not to the OP then perhaps to some other readers.
The thing about threads on the forum is that once they are posted, they dont just belong to the OP any more. Because there are others who are also interested in the ideas that get hashed around.
And that is good.
Maybe somebody had heard of reward charts but wasnt so comfortable with the idea and couldnt quite put their finger on why.
Anyway, the only point being that I DO think that we all might have valuable things to share from our own different perspectives.
But it would be nice to just be more careful in telling others that they are not GD or AP or whatever. Tis all.
Joline


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*

Live up to your own definition of "gentle" by all means. But please stop applying to everybody else.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

oops


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I try and keep my bantering to people I know can take it without feeling too personal with the goal of mutual exchange of ideas. But we are on a public board and sometimes when I am bantering with those peopls, innocent bystanders get caught in the fray......


I'm good. It was just a shock being told my non-corporal methods weren't, in fact, GD, when we try to be GD and the one method that is working and has been working long term is being denounced as the opposite of what we're trying to achieve. if that makes sense.

**waves white flag


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandajf*
I'm good. It was just a shock being told my non-corporal methods weren't, in fact, GD, when we try to be GD and the one method that is working and has been working long term is being denounced as the opposite of what we're trying to achieve. if that makes sense.

**waves white flag

You could however change that "in fact" to "according to some"
Because lots of GD mamas think this IS GD.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Please tell me how withholding a pet or food choices because your child did not earn enough poker chips is amiable, tender, kindly, or considerate.....or gentle according to the very handy definition posted here.

I have not read past this post and I must reply to it!!!

Ok, first of all..
OP has said NO WHERE that she withholds a pet or food choices because her child did not earn enough poker chips!!!

If my own child does not behave, I do not allow him/her to choose what he/she wants to eat. I do not 'reward his/her bad behavior! I do not allow them to go to the movies. I do not allow them to buy a candy bar at the store, ect...
The OP rewards good behavior in the form of a poker chip. The children then get to make a choice as to what they would like to do with thier poker chip. Why would allowing her children to 'cash in' (so to speak) the chips such a bad thing?

I do not agree with much of what has been posted on here. Just because I do not agree does NOT mean your beliefs are not right for you (general). I like the reward system. I do not see where it is so bad. Everyone has their own parenting skills, choices, ideas, ect.

The OP asked for a simple suggestion. She did not ask for this thread to become a public debate thread.
I understand this thread may offend a few of you mothers, which is fine, that is normal. Why must we turn this thread into a pissing match about what is and what is Not GD???

If you have a suggestion for the OP, then offer it to her. If you want to go on and on about how this is not GD, you do not agree, ect.. I would suggest perhaps starting another thread about your views on it.

BTW Amanda, I like the fairy idea too!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

So funny, we were just out on our playdate and this subject came up. One of my friends does a simple chart and her son gets one of 3 diff types of smilies at the end of each day dep.on how many good choices he's made. She said she regrets having started it b/c she sees how her son now seeks validation almost constantly for all of his interactions. It's much more of an extrinsic motivator.

and

Quote:


Quote:
I know that, a long time ago, before I was a registered poster and was instead just a lurker, there was a big huge discussion about why TCS couldn't have its own forum/subforum. I don't remember what the reason was, but I know that they tried having one super-mega TCS thread where ALL TCS-related discussion was to go. Don't know what happened to that, but I imagine that it just got unwieldy.

Anyway, the reason that you stated above is why I tend to avoid the GD board and visit just in fits and starts when a particular (and usually particularly titillating) thread gets my attention. I have found that it's hard to get advice on specific strategies or actions to take for specific problems or issues because so many of the comments are of the "parents should never try to direct their kids' actions"/TCS kind.








:


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
If you have a suggestion for the OP, then offer it to her.

My suggestion is to ask this on the crafts forum. That is what the OP seems to want.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Actually, that's kind of true.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Not trying to throw kerosene on the fire, but I have an actual, not-judging, not-confronting question:

What do you do when the stickers/poker chips/smilies are not enough? I would see my son doing task A for a few weeks, happily receiving his sticker and moving on. Then, it hits him--this is just a sticker! "You think I am helping you unload the dishwasher for a stinkin' sticker?" Now I am stuck with his not doing his task because the sticker is not valuable enough. Where do you go from there?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
Not trying to throw kerosene on the fire, but I have an actual, not-judging, not-confronting question:

What do you do when the stickers/poker chips/smilies are not enough? I would see my son doing task A for a few weeks, happily receiving his sticker and moving on. Then, it hits him--this is just a sticker! "You think I am helping you unload the dishwasher for a stinkin' sticker?" Now I am stuck with his not doing his task because the sticker is not valuable enough. Where do you go from there?

Actually the point is to do the exact opposite. Create a reward system to get the habit started then phase it out so that the habit becomes intrinsic, even if it started out as extrinsic.
If you hold on to the reinforcement system too long you do end up with a self perpetuating system.
But it takes usually 4-6 weeks for the human brain to develop a new habit. That means if your child gets into the habit of doing x every day for 4-6 weeks, it will become habit and the reward will not be necessary.
THey are only useful really for short term goals.


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

....Ummmmm....







:

I get the general idea but what exactly does TCS stand for?


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

taking children seriously

and, um, I have no comment b/c I do take my kids seriously but I don't consider myself a TCS purist.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*

What do you do when the stickers/poker chips/smilies are not enough? I would see my son doing task A for a few weeks, happily receiving his sticker and moving on. Then, it hits him--this is just a sticker! "You think I am helping you unload the dishwasher for a stinkin' sticker?" Now I am stuck with his not doing his task because the sticker is not valuable enough. Where do you go from there?


With the poker chips, IMO, that is why OP allowes her children to "have a choice" in what they use to buy (so to speak) with thier poker chips.
Its not just a sticker that gets old, kwim.

For instance:
Say one RED chip will allow the child to pick his/her favorite dinner.

One Blue chip will allow the child to be treated to ice cream to the movies (alone, with out other siblings).

One White chip will allow the child to be treated to dinner out and a movie (with out siblings).

Two blue chips perhaps may equal the child to be able to do something else they chose, ect.

Making sense? I do not think that the chips would equate to not being enough. Or even get old. As a child, if I knew that after unloading the dishwasher with out even being asked I would receive a blue chip and could cash it in for a night out with my parent(s) and icecream I would be all on it! There are endless possibilities for the child(ren) with the chips.IMO

I do not think this is a "bad" system... of course may not work for every parent/child, but I still like it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
As a child, if I knew that after unloading the dishwasher with out even being asked I would receive a blue chip and could cash it in for a night out with my parent(s) and icecream I would be all on it!

I am a parent who doesn't really see anything wrong with charts, and in fact I think they can be quite useful in certain instances. I don't really see anything wrong with token economies for extra material things (such as earn enough tokens and you can trade them in for $ to buy that Transformer you want soooo bad). But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I am a parent who doesn't really see anything wrong with charts, and in fact I think they can be quite useful in certain instances. I don't really see anything wrong with token economies for extra material things (such as earn enough tokens and you can trade them in for $ to buy that Transformer you want soooo bad). But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!

But dinner out with parents at a special restaurant or a trip with parents to a favorite ice cream parlor still involve parents, but it isnt really their attention or time that is being paid for but a context different from the usual context of being with parents at home.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I understand what you are saying Johub, but like I said before,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time.

that time, attention, and fun together should be given freely by parents, not paid for by kids. IMO. Kids shouldn't have to pay their parents to do something special with them.

Namaste!


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!

I am trying to figure out in my brain how to say this and it not sound offending, please excuse me if it does, I do NOT mean for it to!

Perhaps you are missing the idea, I do not know of any 4, 6 or 9 yr olds that can take themselves to the icecream shop. I do not know of any 4, 6, 9 yr olds that can take themselves to the movies.

Its not a matter of the child "paying for time with mommy." Of course the child will be with mommy regardless, or daddy for that matter.

Who will be taking the child to buy that Transformer he/she has so badly wanted?

I agree that special time should be given freely to a child by his/her parent(s)!!!
I do not think its a matter of ....If you don't pay for time with mommy, you will not be having time with her tonight.
This particular type of reward system _could_ even teach children how to manage time and money... if used properly! kwim?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

So would it be more appropriate if a child used his chips to cash in a trip to the movies or the ice cream parlor by somebody OTHER than the parents? In order that this is not confused with parent fun time that ought to be free?


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
So would it be more appropriate if a child used his chips to cash in a trip to the movies or the ice cream parlor by somebody OTHER than the parents? In order that this is not confused with parent fun time that ought to be free?

In my house, it's a trip to movies or ice cream. If my kids want uncle so and so to take them instead, i'll ask them to take em and give em money to do it.

But in my house this is a huge extra. Usually the rewards are privileges that we consider extra, such as watching a movie/television show, playing on the computer, etc. But if they choose an outing, and they choose to do one with mom and/or dad alone, then yea that's a perk. Why? because how many parents ordinarily hire a babysitter so they can take only one of their children to a movie? Not many. Most will take all of their children. Well, if my oldest has been working really hard at doing extra help around the house and completing tasks on her own volition, I see nothing wrong with her "cashing in" for a night with someone alone, me, her father or big bird for all i care. They know they're not buying mom or dad, they know they're paying in "tokens" in exchange for me to spend money hiring someone else to watch her sisters so we can do something alone. this is something we don't normally due because we just can't afford to hire a sitter 3 nights a week, or month for that matter, so that each kiddo gets a night out alone. And just in case, this isn't due to a lack of caring on our part, but i don't hire a sitter so their father and i get time alone either.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Since you had mentioned that you felt part of your routine was a pain, you might be willing to look at an alternative point of view? Here is a link to a Mothering Magazine article that outlines downsides to praise/rewards:

From Mothering


actually that article outlines OVERPRAISING as bad.

excerpt: *Positive reinforcement and praise certainly have their place*, but we have no control over teeth. If the award had come instead from his dentist, who acknowledged that my son always brushes his teeth after meals and flosses daily, perhaps that might have meant something to him. That would have rewarded his effort more than any esoteric notion of healthy teeth. My son knows, though, that he made no special effort to lose his front tooth, and that everyone will eventually lose those baby teeth. His reward has taught him something important: doing nothing is good enough. There is no need to make an effort if you will be rewarded the same regardless.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumto2*
....Ummmmm....







:

I get the general idea but what exactly does TCS stand for?

TCS = taking children seriously...
TCS is an educational philosophy. Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will, and that they are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.

and my husband was raised in this fashion. he was raised essentially summerhill... another form of TCS. His father is professor emeritus of psychology and in the 70's when DH was born, his father took TCS principals seriously and raised him accordingly. His father regrets it, as does my husband, frankly. Reed never learned how to navigate in society. He learned that his opinion is what mattered. Great. he never learned that compromise and manipulation were aspects fo being able to work in society. Manipulation means "please" and "thank you" Manipulation means being able to say "I want this job because I love the idea of working at this company blah blah blah rather than "I need the paycheck" and absolutely not having the ability to be able to on-the-spot lie, or come up with alternate realities in order to be able to get a job. Sounds ideal to have a child free of manipulations, btu the reality is very harsh. Reed can not communicate well with other people. He does not have a job, despite being utterly brilliant. He can not come up with bull%^&* that everyone else in America uses on a daily basis to network, and find jobs.

He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?" No direction means that when he left home to go to college he lost 40 pounds within six months because he didn't know how to cook and kept putting off cooking thinking that eventually it will get worked out. That is a serious handicap. When he was invited to work in a chem lab by a notoriously difficult chem professor (big achievement) he asked his father about h\it and his father had no comment. Now, his father is a professor himself and knows how important this is as a contact, and reed didn;t take his chem prof up on it because he felt it would be a burden, having NO CLUE that this is a way to further himself and his academic career = lack of ability to manipulate.

bad idea.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
TCS = taking children seriously...
TCS is an educational philosophy. Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will, and that they are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.

and my husband was raised in this fashion. he was raised essentially summerhill... another form of TCS. His father is professor emeritus of psychology and in the 70's when DH was born, his father took TCS principals seriously and raised him accordingly. His father regrets it, as does my husband, frankly. Reed never learned how to navigate in society. He learned that his opinion is what mattered. Great. he never learned that compromise and manipulation were aspects fo being able to work in society. Manipulation means "please" and "thank you" Manipulation means being able to say "I want this job because I love the idea of working at this company blah blah blah rather than "I need the paycheck" and absolutely not having the ability to be able to on-the-spot lie, or come up with alternate realities in order to be able to get a job. Sounds ideal to have a child free of manipulations, btu the reality is very harsh. Reed can not communicate well with other people. He does not have a job, despite being utterly brilliant. He can not come up with bull%^&* that everyone else in America uses on a daily basis to network, and find jobs.

He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?" No direction means that when he left home to go to college he lost 40 pounds within six months because he didn't know how to cook and kept putting off cooking thinking that eventually it will get worked out. That is a serious handicap. When he was invited to work in a chem lab by a notoriously difficult chem professor (big achievement) he asked his father about h\it and his father had no comment. Now, his father is a professor himself and knows how important this is as a contact, and reed didn;t take his chem prof up on it because he felt it would be a burden, having NO CLUE that this is a way to further himself and his academic career = lack of ability to manipulate.

bad idea.

Okay, so not to defend TCS here, as I know no one IRL who does it and we certainly don't, but it did sound to me from the previous discussions on this board that it's certainly okay to tell your children how you feel about something, even if you are practicing it. Or at least that's how the mothers who post here talk about it. Am I wrong? I guess I also haven't ever heard of "Summerhill". And I hate to mix up TCS with NCP. Or consensual living.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

http://pixspace.com/Amanda/albums/album12

Big vase is my stash.

The sconces are the kids stashes. They each get one sconce with two bud vases


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Very pretty

Oh and we have a reward chart for ds, when he gets a certain number of stickers he can go pick out a dinosaur from the store. I see nothing wrong with him earning a dinosaur.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I am not a TCS parent and I never will be no matter how many times TCS parents state their case, so although I'm sure their advice is offered with the best of intentions, it's of no use to me because my parenting paradigm is so fundamentally different from theirs.

I'm not a TCS parent, either, but I find TCS/non-coercive parents' posts to be useful to me because they do make me reconsider my choices. It's not that I'm changing my mind to their point of view, because I still do see developmental value to the thoughtful wielding of parental control/power. But I don't think that having power over another person, including my child, should ever be a totally comfortable experience. I don't think that harshness or "you're not GDing" is necessary or helpful in keeping us non-TCSers on our toes, but I do think that the posts pointing out, "There's another perspective," are valuable.

In terms of the whole token system thing, well, I found them unwieldy and frequently more trouble than they were worth when I was teaching kids with autism, and I don't at the moment see myself using them with my kids, but since ds is only 2.5, I don't have a lot of parent-side experience to offer. I did want to mention though, that I think the big benefit provided by the tokens on the nanny shows is the effect they have on the *parents*. The presence of the tokens prompts the parents to remember to notice the positive things their kids do (which many of the parents on the show seem to have fallen into the habit of not noticing much, which can happen so easily), and, even though I'm even less enthusiastic about response cost (taking away a token in response to undesired behavior), at least it gives the parents a more controlled response to those behaviors (as opposed to the yelling, hitting, etc., that was happening before).

I actually did set up a token system in one classroom specifically to give my aides a firm guideline as to what was okay to do if a child was behaving in an undesired way. Before that, there were a lot of threats of "no playground tomorrow" (with a child who didn't even have a great grasp of when "tomorrow" was), lengthy scoldings, etc. (Because the school district found it hard to fill the aide positions, the administration actually supported the aides whenever they disagreed with me. There were always special ed teachers looking for jobs, but not too many people wanted to be poorly paid aides.) With the tokens, the aides got to take out their frustrations by removing a token. Sounds stupid, and it was totally not ideal, but it did save the kids from worse treatment.

(All this discussion is *not* directly at the OP. I'm certainly not suggesting that you'd be screaming at/hitting/ignoring the positive behaviors of your kids without the token system. I would have absolutely no reason to suggest that. I'm just talking about tokens in certain cases.







)


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

I didn't read all the responses but wanted to chime in that reward charts can be great. In my work, we are often times figuring out ways to help families develop chart systems with a win-win angle. For example, I helped a foster family make a chart so the child could earn points. Depending on the points would determine how much freedom he would have the next day to do fun things. For example, he might be able to have extra time on a video game or stay up late. He helped decide what he was earning and it was for pretty basic stuff. I also used charts as a way to increase a childs self esteem. They were created with the child earning the prize pretty easily. And it worked wonders. Not only did he usually get his 'prize' (which he picked), it was also a great tool for us to talk about each item. At the end of each shift, I gave him the chart and we discussed together how he did each item that day. Another worker ceated a bean jar with a family she worked with. Mom would add beans to the jar when the kids did something positive (not sure what the actual target bx. were) and when the jar was filled up, the whole family did something special together. I think that's a neat idea- a great way to visually show the family working together and getting to play together.

I don't know if I would use them for a well adjusted child, but the kids I work with are 'high needs' (serious family issues, mental health dx., and in foster care).

As far as figuring out a system for your kids, I'd focus on their favorite things and go from there. The flower pot is neat


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?"

This isn't TCS. Sharing theories is an essential component of TCS, as is seeking mutually agreeable solutions.

Summerhill also isn't TCS. Summerhill had lots of rules, too. Has, actually.

Dar


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

*geekgolightly*, I was raised in a completely non-coercive way too. I don't see that it's hurt me or made me unable to function in the world; quite the contrary. I'm glad I was raised the way I was, because it was a lot of fun for us as kids!

I do know quite a few people who are brilliant and have trouble holding down a job, and difficulties with other practical aspects of life -- and it so happens that they all had totally mainstream parents. I think some people just turn out that way. They are wonderful people anyway.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

There was one time when my older son was about 4 that I thought seriously about doing a reward chart to improve his behavior, with a reward of a weekly outing alone with me. After thinking it through, I decided that he needed the weekly outing alone with me, whether he improved his behavior or not. So I made it completely "free." After several weeks of consistant 1:1 time with mommy, I noticed huge improvements in his overall behavior. I also noticed feeling more connected to him, feeling more patient with him, and being better in tune to the hidden needs and messages behind his behavior when he did act out.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

The vases and flowers are very pretty! What a unique idea. They look lovely.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

So let me ask all you reward-chart using mamas....do YOU have a reward chart for your behaviour?

I know for me, personally, I have days when my behaviour is less than stellar, when I forget the rules of couples communication and just yell/vent at him. When I yell at my kids instead of helping them...DH and I have issues that we are constantly working on with each other. None of that work involves any sort of tangible reward.

This isn't sarcasm, by the way, I just am not sure why kids should be subjected to this when I'm guessing the adults aren't. What do the adults do to modify behaviour they don't like about themselves? And why can't that be applied to children?


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