# Help! Severe Aggressive/Defiant Behavior!



## Bisou

I am a single mother of a 4-year-old son with extreme behavioral problems, and I am desperate for your help as I am not liking what the medical community is offering us (medication, of course).

Here's the main point of concern so I can make my "thesis" clear. *For over two years, I've been dealing with serious behavioral problems with my son including extreme aggression and destructive behavior. He has severely injured me on many occasions. I have sought therapy for him and both his therapist and the behavioral/developmental pediatrician we saw are recommending medication. The pediatrician prescribed Risperdal, which is an extremely serious anti-psychotic medication. My parents are not supportive of me giving him medication, and I am not sold on the idea either (as I know most of you probably wouldn't be), but I am at my wit's end with his behavior. I am posting here as a last-ditch effort to get some ideas that might help me deal with my son. Medication is NOT what I want to do, but I am feeling desperate. Also, the doctor and therapist (a psychologist) along with his regular pediatrician say that if his behavior continues, he is building neural pathways that will stay with him for the rest of his life. They say once this behavior becomes entrenched, it will only get worse. They say, "If you have a hard time controlling him now and keeping him from hurting you, what about when he's 8 or 10 years old?" I am scared, angry, and frustrated with this situation, and of course I blame myself.*

Just to give you some context for my situation, his father is not involved at all and has never met him, and though I have some help from my parents (they usually watch him one night per week, though they are not at all emotionally supportive), I am raising this child primarily on my own. My parents live an hour and a half away, so when my son has these hideous tantrums, which can last as long as 6-8 hours at times, I have no one to call to help me, and I can't handle it at times.

We had a very hard time from the beginning. He hated breastfeeding (or so it appeared) and screamed, pushed me away, and scratched me every time I tried. I didn't give up, but it took six months and a million visits to a lactation consultant to really be successful with it. He cried a lot and was colicky as well. He was hardly ever content.

The aggression began early. Even at 18 months, my son showed signs of aggressive behavior, trying to slam his head backwards into my face. He succeeded in giving me bloody noses and split my lip on several occasions. People would ask me if someone punched me in the face. I don't know why he did it, but he seemed angry and it seemed very intentional, even though I know he didn't really understand what he was doing.

(*ADDENDUM*: Since posting this originally, and thanks to a few MDC moms for recognizing it, my son has been diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder and has sensory seeking behavior as part of his SPD. He is unable to tell where his body is in space and has difficulty gauging how hard/soft he is doing things. In light of this, his behavior at 18 months is now clearly related to SPD. While I thought he "seemed angry," it was because he seemed to be trying to hurt me; however, the behavior wasn't happening in response to a "no" or any sort of discipline from me. I interpreted his body language in trying to slam into me as anger, but emotionally he didn't seem angry. It was just random. I don't believe he was being aggressive at that age now, just having difficulties with sensory processing.)

As far as discipline goes, I began with attachment parenting and was very committed to the idea. I breastfed him for two years and didn't put him in childcare until he was two years old. We co-slept and still do. I didn't circumcise him because I felt it was unnecessary and violent. I felt like I was doing everything "right" and that he would be a happy, healthy, loving child. I wanted to show him nothing but love and kindness, which is very different from what I got as a child.

I used very gentle discipline. If he hurt me, I would say, "We do not hit. Hitting hurts mommy." I was later told by therapists, nannies, parents, and doctors that my gentle approach to discipline was what caused his aggressive, out-of-control behavior.

Then, my son was seriously abused at a daycare when he was two, which only made things worse. We had to change daycares, obviously, and he would be extremely aggressive towards the other children any time I was around. He would hit, slap, push kids down, grab and pinch their faces, and once he even grabbed another child's head and started slamming it into the wall as hard as he could, over and over, while everyone screamed in horror and ran towards him as quickly as we could to make him stop. It was horrifying and humiliating. Everyone looked at me with horror and shock on their faces and said, "Why would he do this?"

Keep in mind that he had never watched a single TV show, had never seen someone be violent to another person, had never been physically brutalized by a loved one himself, though I will never know exactly what happened to him at that daycare. I do know that the skin was pretty much ripped off his testicles when the teacher (according to both the doctor's assessment and mine) apparently twisted his testicles for punishment, or torture, or who knows what.

I understand that the abuse he faced certainly impacted his behavior. He was angry and scared, and I still see him as a very angry, scared child. He seems to direct all his anger at me.

I can't count the number of black eyes and bloody noses he's given me. I am fairly sure he has even broken my nose. He has destroyed things, thrown heavy objects at my head, broken lamps, urinated on the couch on purpose (while in a time out), and so many awful things I can't even list them all, nor do I want to.

We have also faced several very stressful situations, one right after another. In addition to the abuse at his daycare, we also had the extremely traumatizing experience of having someone try to break into our house in May when we were there alone. It took the police 30 minutes to arrive, and I later found out (which I knew in my heart at the time) that the person was trying to get in to our house not to steal things, but to hurt me. He lived across the street, but I did not know him. He intended to rape me and cut me up with a box cutter. It's not clear whether he intended to hurt my son, but he knew my son and I lived there alone. My son was awake during the whole incident and we were both extremely terrified.

After this, we obviously had to move, as the attacker's relatives lived directly across the street from us and I didn't feel safe. We had to leave all of our friends that we had known for two years, and my son had to leave all the kids he played with daily.

Only a few weeks after this happened when we were still living with my parents and commuting 3 hours each day to work and preschool, a teacher at my son's Waldorf preschool (yes! Waldorf!) called to tell me that *the director of the school had physically force-fed my son on several occasions*, shoving a spoon through his closed lips while he sobbed for mommy. He had been particularly clingy when I dropped him off, but I thought it was due to the extreme stress we'd been under after the break-in. This teacher reported the force feeding as child abuse to the child care division and quit her job, and I immediately removed my son from that school. (Another teacher also witnessed the incident and confirmed that the account was true.) Yet another devastating change for him, as he lost all the friends he had made. It's been one loss, trauma, and tragedy for us (and my son in particular) after another.

Sorry this is so long, but there are so many pieces to this terrible puzzle that I feel I need to share.

Since he was a little over two, right after the child abuse at daycare and the aggressive behavior towards other children surfaced, I have been taking him to see a play therapist, and she has advised me to use time outs for any behavior that harms himself, harms others, or destroys belongings. Time outs do not seem to work for him and only escalate the situation until it turns into a complete physical battle. He is hitting, kicking, screaming, biting, and doing anything he can to fight me. He always hurts me, and I lose my temper and can become rough with him or emotionally abusive. This poor parenting on my part has been a new thing; somehow in the past I usually kept it together, but I am just burned out.

He will not stay in time out. He will come out of time out and continue to hit, bite, throw things and generally be out of control. Have been instructed by our therapist (who is generally very kind, rational, and reasonable; I do like her, overall) to restrain him and physically force him to stay in time out by sitting behind him and wrapping his arms around himself, as if he's in a straight-jacket. This usually results in him trying to bash me with his head or bite me, so sometimes I have to sit him in a chair and hold his arms over his head. I often have to drag him kicking and screaming into time out, since he refuses to go to time out.

I absolutely HATE, despise, and detest having to have these physical confrontations with him, like we are in a battle. I am only 5'2" and he is now 3'7" and a very muscular, strong kid. Even though he is only four, he is very hard to restrain and control. It just doesn't feel right, and it's very hard for me because I was very physically abused as a child, and it really triggers me. I feel like I am in an abusive relationship with someone who is hitting me and hurting me, and I want to leave, every fiber of my being is screaming "WALK AWAY BEFORE YOU LOSE IT!" but I can't walk away. He's only four. I can't leave him alone.

As I mentioned above, he has been in therapy for two years, and his therapist and behavioral pediatrician recommend that he take Risperdal, which is an anti-psychotic. This is a serious medication, given to schizophrenics and aggressive autistic children, and giving it to my son would be considered an "off label" use, but it's supposedly the only medication used to treat aggressive behavior in children. I do not like the idea of him taking medication AT ALL.

My parents completely disagree with medication, and of course blame his behavior on me because his behavior is most severe when he is with me. *He doesn't act this way at school, and while he does have tantrums and aggressive behavior when he's at my parent's house, it's probably only 25% as much as he does it with me, if not less. I feel like if he's not acting this way at school or as much with my parents, it must be something I am doing wrong. The behavioral pediatrician said that it just shows he has awareness of what's socially appropriate and that after holding it in all day, he blows his fuse when he's with me because he feels safe doing so with me.*.

In addition to the traumas he's been through (abuse, force-feeding, break-in attempt, loss of friends and home), I think there may be some genetic components, as his father was a very mentally unhealthy person who exhibited many of the same behaviors of being kind, loving, and calm one minute and in a complete irrational fury the next.

I don't want to put him on medication, and I blame myself for not being able to have an impact on his behavior. I don't know what to do. I am afraid that the stress of fighting with him on a daily basis could lead to me becoming abusive. I already see myself going in the direction of emotional abuse, saying awful things to him that I hate myself for saying, like "I don't want to be around you. I don't want to talk to you. Just leave me alone." Of course I feel like crap after saying that, and I never said things like that until only recently. I feel like I've been patient for so long and I've finally run out of patience. He's only four, for God's sake, but I feel like I am in an abusive situation and I want to leave, but I can't. If I had someone to call when I am at my wit's end to just have a break for a few minutes, it would help so much, but I don't have any family here, and all my friends have children, and who'd want to come in to deal with a hitting, biting, kicking, screaming, spitting child? No one. So I am left to deal with it even when I feel like I can't. I love him, but more than once I've felt like just walking out the door and not coming back. I can't imagine living without him, but I can't live with him either. I feel like I am completely at my wit's end.

He constantly hurts me, and makes me late for work by having tantrums that make it impossible to get us out the door, which puts me under extreme stress. We live in a high rise apartment complex and I fear us getting evicted because he is screaming blood-curdling screams on a daily basis, sometimes for hours!

I have also lost several friendships because of this because my friends don't want their children around him. I haven't even attempted dating since I was pregnant, because I can't imagine any man wanting to be around a child who acts like this.

From time to time, he can be very sweet and kind. He loves animals, especially cats, and is extremely gentle with them. He can be very loving with me, but his kindness comes only sporadically and can be followed immediately by an angry, violent outburst towards me. Even things he enjoys, like offers from me of going swimming, to the park, out to eat, etc can bring about anger. It's completely irrational.

On the positive side, he is an extremely bright child (off the charts with his vocabulary) and both intellectually and physically talented. He could run at 9 months, and just before his 4th birthday was riding a bike without training wheels! He has so many strengths, and I wish we could see more of those and less of the emotional outbursts.

I've tried using positive reinforcement instead of negative, trying incentives like sticker charts and prizes, but he hates sticker charts and rewards most of the time, and will even get angry if you tell him he did a great job on a task and offer to reward him. He is a completely baffling child much of the time.

I am at my wit's end, but I love my son and want things to change. I don't want to put him on this medication. It seems like there MUST be another way, but I am physically and emotionally exhausted, and nothing I do seems to be working. *Has anyone else dealt with severe behavioral problems? If so, what did you do? HELP!!!!!!*


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## BellinghamCrunchie

His behavior is causing a cycle that is making things worse and digging him in deeper. His behavior causes him to lose friendships and interferes with his attachment to you. He will eventually get the label of "bad kid" and when he does, it is SO hard to turn that label and the behavior around.

Risperdal is not that bad. I would not define it as an "extremely serious" anti-psychotic medication. Its used for aggression. Its used more often off-label than for anything else, so don't let the off-label use worry you. Its calming. Its probably the best choice of medication for aggression. It usually doesn't have bad side effects (worst is usually weight gain). Using Risperdal in conjunction with play therapy and a behavior intervention plan will give your child the best chance to have positive, loving, healthy relationships. Then you can fade the Risperdal as he gains skills and self-control, and heals from all the trauma he has experienced.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. I agree with the professionals that medication is needed here so that he can start having more successes, gain confidence, and learn loving interactions. You can always stop the medication if you really don't think its useful.


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## iamama

I have no advice just want to offer a







.


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## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
His behavior is causing a cycle that is making things worse and digging him in deeper. His behavior causes him to lose friendships and interferes with his attachment to you. He will eventually get the label of "bad kid" and when he does, it is SO hard to turn that label and the behavior around.

Risperdal is not that bad. I would not define it as an "extremely serious" anti-psychotic medication. Its used for aggression. Its used more often off-label than for anything else, so don't let the off-label use worry you. Its calming. Its probably the best choice of medication for aggression. It usually doesn't have bad side effects (worst is usually weight gain). Using Risperdal in conjunction with play therapy and a behavior intervention plan will give your child the best chance to have positive, loving, healthy relationships. Then you can fade the Risperdal as he gains skills and self-control, and heals from all the trauma he has experienced.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. I agree with the professionals that medication is needed here so that he can start having more successes, gain confidence, and learn loving interactions. You can always stop the medication if you really don't think its useful.

I agree, Risperdal was a god send for us and really helps stop the violence and aggression, it also sounds like he desperately needs a mood stabilizer as well. I highly recommend you get the book "Bipolar Kids" by Rosalie Greenburg. Your sons issues are not from what happened at daycare, this behavior is way way outside the norm and like it or not, you son NEEDS meds. I have been where you are and so have many others, your son is to young to be given a Bipolar dx but I can almost assure you he will get the label by the time he's 8. Get the book and you will clearly see your son, there is help out there and you might want to try the mental health forum, the GD forum people while well meaning will not be able to advise you on dealing with this situation and your more then likely going to be flamed or end up being bashed on other forums as a horrible mother because of the way your child acts (cause you know, its gotta be the mothers fault there child is so outta control







) . Trust me, BTDT. Being the parent of a mentally ill child is very very difficult and very hard to accept but once you accept help life gets better, much better. I honestly regret waiting until my dd was 8 and we'd been though YEARS of hell before I was ready to admit we needed meds and we tried EVERYTHING before resorting to meds.


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## Maiasaura

Mama, I couldn't read and not reply. Poor you; you must be so, so exhausted.

My son is high need and very, very spirited. He has ADHD in a huge, huge way, and might end up being bipolar as well. He's only 8.
When he was littler, like yours, while he was never nearly as aggressive as that, he was pretty off the scale aggressive compared to other kids. I was always That Mom with That Kid at the playground. I feel your pain-- perhaps on a lesser scale, but I identify with the isolation, the loneliness, the blame, the shame, the What Did I Do, the self-doubt.

My kid's therapist was pushing for meds since he was 3, 3-1/2 or so. I just. would. not. go there. She kept telling me that she was not a Meds As First Line of Defense person, but I felt that she was...anyway. Long story short, I finally came to a couple of conclusions:
1) a trial on meds is just that, a trial. It's not a sentence. It doesn't have to last forever.
and 2)-- this was really, really hard for me to grasp-- I know that our kids in the USA are way overmedicated, but I also know that there are some kids that truly _need_ them, and _my kid_ was one of them.

I went through stages of grief over this, and guilt like you can't imagine. He started meds when he was 5, and we've changed them up a couple times since then, and now he's trying a mood stabilizer too, for his extreme negativity, and I can't stand it-- I can't _stand_ it, the meds, any meds, new meds, higher dosage meds. For us, it just seems to keep escalating-- BUT, and this is a big but-- they help him.

Yes, they make my life easier, but that's not what it's about-- they help HIM get through a day, help HIM relate to people normally, they help HIM learn social skills that he can't seem to get by himself, they help HIM learn to handle his feelings in an appropriate manner, with appropriate outlets.

I can't believe I'm saying this-- but I'd advocate trying them. Just trying. You have done all you can, and I know you are a great and loving mama, because I've been there (though in a different way) and I am the best mama I can be, too. You are breaking down and it comes through in your email.
BTW-- I'm a single mama, too, with no support system either.

Good luck and don't beat yourself up if your boy is one who truly needs meds-- it's not your fault. At ALL. Sometimes things are just random. Maybe you were given this particular boy because he knew before he was incarnate that you were the one that would love him and handle him like nobody else can. Who knows why we get the children we get. I have often wondered why I got a boy who is so, so hyper and defiant-- who decided I needed to learn MORE patience?
But it isn't mine to question, or doubt, I guess-- apparently I am the mama most able to parent this particular boy. I love him with every pore and every fiber of my being, as exasperating as he can be sometimes









If you do try him on meds, and they help-- like they say in AA, if the cure works, you might possibly have the disease (or in this case, syndrome or disorder or whatever the catch-phrase of the day is). Go through the grief stages, and then breathe and be gentle with yourself.

I know you love your boy, too. Keep loving him. Keep doing the best you can. Hang in there, mama, things will get better.


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## MamaKickyPants

Oh mama





















I'm so sorry for all the trauma and heartache that you and your son have been through.

I don't have advice on the medication front, but I do notice, from your description, that the time-outs seem to trigger a great deal of violence and tantrums. Could you try getting rid of them completely? If they're not working, and they are causing you both so much trauma, maybe doing away with them is the best thing? You could try a 'time-in' instead, where, if he does something violent or aggressive, you sit with him, hug him, tell him how important he is to you, basically go for connection rather than separation. Once he's calm enough, you could try talking to him about it, see how it goes?

You are doing such a great job - it's so wonderful that you are reaching out everywhere you can to get resources and ways to help your son. He has a wonderful, caring mama, and you will both get through this.


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## eclipse

I'm sorry you and your little guy are going through this. If I were in your shoes, I would try medication. What you're doing isn't working. Medication might not either, but it's another tool in the tool box, and it might be what he needs. I know it's a tired analogy, but if your child had diabetes that wasn't being controlled through diet, wouldn't you try insulin? Trying meds also doesn't mean that he will be on them forever. It could be that he needs them to get him on an even keel so that all the therapy and effort that you are putting in can help him.


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## PlayaMama

no advice, just a







nak


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## wondermama

First, many, many hugs to you.

You've gotten some great BTDT advice, I have no experience with meds as do several pps, and I wanted to chime in with a suggestion (whatever you decide with meds) to find a Peter Levine trained therapist to help your ds with his trauma history. Apparently, they have amazing results with adults and kids, and it popped into my mind as I was reading your post. You can check out his work and find a therapist here: http://www.traumahealing.com/

Best, best wishes for your journey. You will make it through, as will your son. I hope you find all the help you need, whatever form it takes.


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## Three~Little~Birds

I, too, wanted to offer you a hug. I can't imagine going through what you are going through. I don't have any experience with the medication that you mentionned but I did want to mention one thing. When I first read your post and you were talking about his infancy, the first thing that jumped to mind was that he might have food sensitivities. I realize that food issues might not be the full solution, given the extent of the situation, but it might be a large piece of the puzzle. There is a great deal of info in the 'allergies' threads here on MDC that you might want to check out.
You sound like a wonderful mother. Go easy on yourself. We have all fallen short of our ideal parenting at times. I kow that I have - and for much less than you have had to deal with. Could you ever make arrangements with someone to take him so that you might get some time to recharge your batteries? I know that for me, sometimes a short time apart gives me the energy to get through the rest of the day...


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## Bisou

First of all, thank you to all of you who have replied. I am honestly really surprised at how many of you are ok with medication---not surprised in a judgmental way, like "I can't believe you would think that," but just plain old surprise. I really expected most people to say, "Absolutely do not give him medication" since I know a lot of people on this site are really into natural parenting. In some ways, it is a little comforting to hear people say that they tried it and it really worked for their child. But I am still scared. My parents have made it very clear that if we try medication and anything goes wrong, they are going to hold me responsible. Yes, they are SOOO supportive (heavy sarcasm). Yet they also tell me they want me to "do something" about his behavior. Honestly, I think what my dad would like me to do is start spanking my son. That's how they raised me, and it destroyed my self-esteem and I hated my parents for most of my life. It's hard to feel like someone loves you when they beat you, you know?

As far as the medication goes, I guess it really freaked me out because this medication is used for schizophrenia, and I had a friend who had schizophrenia (who later committed suicide) and all the medications she was on were absolutely awful. I've also dealt with depression myself and have been on anti-depressants, most of which have given me pretty awful side effects.

I guess my fears are that he is too young to really explain how he's feeling on the medication, and that he might have some terrible side effect that is irreversible. I went on a website about this medication and a few kids developed tics (like smacking their lips and rolling their tongues around) that didn't go away once the medication was stopped. I guess I just feel scared about doing something to his brain.

Sometimes I feel like I am blowing his behavior out of proportion. He's not terrible every day. But we definitely go through spells (days and days) where it can be completely off the charts. I do notice that it has a lot to do with my mood and my energy levels. It takes a lot of energy to engage with him and direct him positively without doing too much of "No, don't do that. Stop that! Put that down!" and just picking on every little thing he is doing instead of using a more positive approach. But then again, there are those times that no matter how "perfectly" I do things, it just doesn't matter.

For the people who mentioned bi-polar disorder or have bi-polar kids, were your kids having problems in all situations (home, school, etc)? I know you're not medical experts, but what do you make of him being able to control his behavior at preschool and (to a certain extent) with his grandparents but not so much with me?

I honestly hope it's not bipolar disorder, but with as dysfunctional as his dad is, I wouldn't be completely surprised.

I guess I feel like he's been through so much trauma that it's hard to know if it's just that.

For those of you with bipolar kids, what were they like as babies? Did you find them to be difficult babies as well?

I REALLY appreciate everyone's advice (of ALL kinds) on this issue. I think the more opinions (and diverse opinions) the better. It gives me a lot to think about. Thank you!


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## Kirsten

I am so sorry; it sounds over-the-top stressful.







I understand trying to avoid meds; I am a minimalist re: meds of any kind too. But sometimes they are needed. I think you have tried everything you can short of meds. I really would try what the doctors are recommending. See if it helps. Because is it better to be natural and miserable or on medication and happy?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
His behavior is causing a cycle that is making things worse and digging him in deeper. His behavior causes him to lose friendships and interferes with his attachment to you. He will eventually get the label of "bad kid" and when he does, it is SO hard to turn that label and the behavior around.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. I agree with the professionals that medication is needed here so that he can start having more successes, gain confidence, and learn loving interactions. You can always stop the medication if you really don't think its useful.

I really agree with all of this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maiasaura* 
our kids in the USA are way overmedicated, but I also know that there are some kids that truly _need_ them, and _my kid_ was one of them.

I'd advocate trying them. Just trying. You have done all you can

If you do try him on meds, and they help-- like they say in AA, if the cure works, you might possibly have the disease (or in this case, syndrome or disorder or whatever the catch-phrase of the day is). Go through the grief stages, and then breathe and be gentle with yourself.

Yes, this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
if your child had diabetes that wasn't being controlled through diet, wouldn't you try insulin? Trying meds also doesn't mean that he will be on them forever. It could be that he needs them to get him on an even keel so that all the therapy and effort that you are putting in can help him.

This was the first thing I thought of too. And I really, REALLY understand not wanting to medicate - but I think your situation warrants trying. As a good, caring, loving, dedicated mother, you have tried everything else already. It is ok to try this. What if his life and yours could be calm and workable? Isn't it worth trying to see?


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## TheLightbearer

I would definitely try nature therapy and art therapy first. I have always had success with these and you do not need to be an expert in either of these fields to do them. Take your son into nature _every day_. Make it an adventure, especially let him dig in the dirt and help you plant and care for flowers, trees, etc...There is a wonderful book called Last Child in the Woods which is fantastic and I highly recommend it.
Leave art supplies in every area he plays in-clay, crayons, washable markers, watercolors. Cover your kitchen table with butcher paper instead of a table cloth and put crayons in a vase instead of flowers. Set up a messy zone where he can use paint unrestricted on large canvases or scraps of fabric. Shower curtains are great for covering flooring during painting.
If an adult went through the trauma that your son did, a lot of therapy would be prescribed. But he is a child and although medication will change his behavior, it will not heal what he has been through. Of course he is furious! I was too just reading what has happened to him. He has been betrayed by adults he trusted and that is no small thing. He needs the right kind of therapy which is age appropriate. I combine art and nature therapy and I have worked with some very aggressive children. It always works but I have found that they work better in conjunction than one or the other alone in serious cases.
I am sending you so much love and healing. Please feel free to contact me if you need any ideas. I know you can do this. Hang in there and take care of yourself, Mama. I love you.


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## OGirlieMama

I couldn't read and not reply. I have no expertise here, but I agree with the previous posters who say it sounds like the medication is needed here, and I would listen to the medical professionals in this case, rather than your parents. I hope you can find peace with the decision and that the medication will help your son and you to build a better life together.


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## Enudely

oh you poor thing!! Sounds to me like you are a great mom. I agree with everyone, give the medication a try, if you don't like it, you can always go back, right?
I also read "The Last Child in the Woods" and though I'm not sure about the whole "Nature Deficit Disorder" thing (that ADHD is basically caused by a lack of free play time in the woods), I do think it's a valuable book. My friend has a kid with pretty bad ADHD and she gets really annoyed when someone suggests that the illness can be cured by eliminating sugar from his diet or taking him out into the woods a lot. She DOES take him into the woods a lot, by the way.
anyway, good luck! You are not alone! Mothering.com is a fantastic place to come for support!


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## pomegranate

i couldn't read without at least giving you a







what you've been going through is obviously exhausting. you and your son are in my prayers.


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## Kismet_fw

This is a tough time, but it can get better.

Of available resources, is there someone near you (or on here maybe?) that would look at things from an whole-person (osteopathic) standpoint? Yes, he may very much need the meds, but there could be other things making it worse by adding a physical component to whatever's triggering his outbursts, something he wouldn't have the words to express.

I have a nephew who was diagnosed as ADHD very young, with bouts of very odd, sometimes aggressive behavior, and meds did help him. But my sister in law also found out that limiting foods with certain dyes and other chemicals helped reduce the amount of triggered events he was having.

The way you described your son pushing you away when he needed to nurse sounds alot like an article I read about babies reacting when nursing mothers eat things that trigger the baby's allergies. There may be some trigger things that he is getting, especially since you are his primary caregiver, so he would get meals you plan and eat yourself. It would be a major bummer if it's something he really likes, but down the road it could make all the difference. Since he also has outbursts with your parents, it could be something common to both households. It may not even be a food, it could be a cleaning product or a scented product.

I don't know enough to say what kinds of things you could look at as possible culprits, but you could start eliminating things that are not strictly needed - like fabric softener.

This is SO much for you to handle with him, but by eliminating one thing at a time for a month or so to see if there is a difference, you might be able to identify something. At this point, anything that will help reduce the load on your shoulders is good.


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## Oubliette8

I would actually try to avoid using antipsychotics, particularly in a child so young. I've been prescribed them off-label as an adult, and they are pretty scary. One of them did give me involuntary muscle spasms- it was painful and scary. Thankfully we discontinued the medication as soon as they appeared and they went away fully. I have met people who weren't so lucky. Some studies have also shown that atypical antipsychotics cause brain shrinkage in monkeys. And while the risk of developing permanent movement disorders (called tardive dyskinesia) is lower than on older antipsychotics, the longer a person remains on the drug, the greater the chances that they will develop. If you remain on them long enough, the risk can become astronomical- and this is in adults, where the drug has been tested. I've also known people who's doctors response to the development of these tics is to prescirbe another medication to treat the tics, while keeping them on the medication that is causing the tics because "they need it". What if your son starts on the drug at 4 and never reaches a point where they feel he can come off? By the time he is 24 he'll have been exposed to it for 2 decades. I just wouldn't use it if at all possible in a child with a developing brain- I'm wary about their use in adults as it is. Its also worth saying, these drugs are prescribed off label for any number of things- just because your son responds in a certain way t one of these drugs does not mean he has a condition- psychiatric conditions are diagnosed by behaviors, not by response to medications, because we simply don't understand the causality yet.

That said, I'm unsure what to recommend in its place. Is play therapy otherwise working for your child? I would look at getting him some trauma therapy, if its not being focused on in play therapy. It might also be worth looking for another therapist who uses a different discipline system. The ideas she is using may just not be the right fit for your son. Could you get some behavioral counseling in your home? I know this is something that my therapist's office does, they have behavioral technicians who can come and observe your childs behaviors in your own home, and help you work on properly applying parenting techniques- sometimes hearing and seeing are two different things you know? Both for you, implementing the technique, and for your therapist, who only hears your description of the behaviors. I hope you find something that works, and something that you are comfortable with for your son.


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## EdnaMarie

That sounds so tough.

I just want to say that I'm really, really opposed to medicating kids but after reading your story, I thought, "She needs to try it."

I agree that you also should try to limit dyes (my own child acts weird when she gets food dyes in her, and she's quite normal otherwise) and artificial preservatives, etc.

But the doctor is right that he's building patterns. If he weren't able to walk because he were having problems with pain in his feet, or his knees wouldn't bend, you wouldn't stop a second before giving him medicine to relieve his symptoms, even if you were going for a more long-term solution. Well... mental illness is not a shame, it's an illness. There's nothing wrong going for medicine.

That said, if you do, can you find a different doctor and see what s/he says about meds (which ones, dosing, etc.) just to see?

I have a cousin who had a seizure on medication for bi-polar. It was horrible. But she needs the medication to function and be a mom to her son. She just needed something different. There are lots of medications for different disorders that can be tried. It sounds like you're a really attentive mom, so he will have you to pay attention to him to see what's going on there.


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## fairymom

My son (14) has ADHD and ODD (oppisitional deifiant disorder) and was very aggressive towards me.(At his worst he tried to strangle me w/a electric cord- I brought him to the ER because I didn't know what else i could do and the dr. didn't want to commit him because he was really upset w/himself and remorseful for what he'd done- he was off his meds- refusing to take them and agreed to take them willing as part of his plan to go home) He has been taking meds for his ADHD for the past 2 years and things for him/us have improved greatly!

I too tried to avoid meds for him (when he was 1st dx @ 8) and we tried lots of different more natural ways to help him but they did not work then. Some have helped NOW that's he's older- like elimination of sugars and food dyes. But as for right now we're continuing w/his meds. Its whats best for him.

When we were seeing a phsycoligist a few years ago she recommended the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene- not for the ADHD but for the ODD and the aggresive behavior. Its a really good book IMO and has good ideas on how to deal w/blowups- and I found it alot more gentle than some.

I am giving you my experience here w/my son. None of this my work for your but I really wanted you to know you're not alone in this and please- I know how easy it is- don't blame yourself or your parenting skills for this. I took me a long time not to blame myself and to realize this is him (but not his fault,IKWIM?) and I have to do my part as his parent and love him. BIG HUGS!

As for your parents and their OP- well its just that their OP and they can have it BUT they are not raising him or living w/him- and to be honset don't sound all that great in the first place. He's YOUR boy and YOU worry about him- forget about them. You don't even have to tell them if you decide to put him on meds- it none of their business!


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## lness

I have some family experience w/ bipolar. In the child I knew (he's grown now) it wasn't constant - he would be fine, "normal" for a period (weeks, sometimes months) and then a long major instability phase of lots of up-and-down swings. This started when he was 5 and was not well-controlled until early 20s. He was terrifying to be around during these swings, would attack people for anything. Kids don't always show the same patterns of behavior as adults, and bipolar is very rare in kids, so you might want to make sure the therapist/doctor have considered ALL the possibilities.
Based on the history you mentioned, they would also considered things like attachment disorder, right (much more common in kids).
As far as the medication - if he needs it, he needs it. "Off label" just means the FDA didn't officially say "Ok, use it for that" - drugs are used off-label all the time. Especially for kids - ALL antipsychotics are off-label for kids and for the majority of diagnoses they are used for as well. It's just too difficult and expensive to do a full study on every option, so they use their best guess to decide.
I am like you, very suspicious of the medication option, but sometimes it is needed. If you want to give it a go, on a trial basis, make sure your prescribing doc is aware of that and you have worked out a reassessment appointment/Plan B idea before he takes the first pill. You don't want to be fumbling when time comes to make the keep-it-or-lose-it discussion. The doc might have different ideas than you - he/she might want to keep the meds if they work, while you might want to drop them anyway because side effects are too much...it should be worked out ahead of time or it can be much harder to convince them to agree with dropping. (Of course, hopefully you won't need to have that kind of talk in the first place!)
Good luck!! <hug>


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## ssh

It's really unfair of your parents using the fact that your DS is worse for you to say his behavior is your fault. Children's behavior is often worse for their primary caregiver because that's who they feel safest with. That's the person who will still love them and be nice to them regardless of what they do.


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## DianeMarie

I thought as a medical person, I should reply.

First of all, as soon as you learn to accept an illness and diagnosis, the sooner you can move onto treating it. Today, still, there seems to be stigma attached to mental disorders, especially in children. But, with more research and development, we are finding that the same disorders that exist in adults exist in children (bi-polar disorder, depression, anxiety, etc.), and in children they are much more difficult to "control" without medication just because of the energy levels and their lack of understanding about their behavior and how it affects others.

Also, I've heard it said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. If you do the same things, you are going to get the same result.

Now, based on that, it sounds like you have done everything you can possibly do (except meds) to attempt to treat your son's aggression to no avail. You have gotten professional recommendations from his doctor and therapist as far as trying medication. Obviously, if they thought that straight therapy would help, they wouldn't have recommended the meds. And, just because whatever you read as far as Rispardil being using for schizophrenia doens't mean your son is a schizophrenic. I know somebody who takes Rispardil for insomnia. It just happens to be the best medication for aggression in children. Meds are used off label all the time. AND---taking medication is not a permanent thing, they can be stopped at any time. But, it certainly is worth a try. You can't continue being beat up, have no friends, your son have no friends, and living in fear all the time because you don't know what he's going to do.

And, as far as your parents "holding you responsible" if anything happens, screw them. First of all---you are an adult. You have a child. He is your child, not theirs----and frankly, it is none of their damned business what you do with him!! You do for your son what you feel you need to do to make his life and your life better. It sounds like they still have some sort of "control" over you, and use guilts trip to make you do what they want you to do. To hell with them. He is your son to raise, not theirs. You have to deal with his behaviors and outburts all the time, no them. Perhaps you should let them take him for a week or two and then see if they think he should be put on medication???? Let him bite them, kick them, hit them, spit on them for a few days and see how they like it----I can tell you, they won't. Don't feel like you have to *explain* why you are doing something to your parents!! It is none of their business what you are doing at all anynway!! You don't have to tell them that you put him on meds. You are a grown woman, living on her own with a child who need help. Do what you need to do to get him the help he needs.

The meds are worth a try, since everything else is not working. The insanity is not going away, so you need to do something different. You will notice pretty quickly if the meds are helping him or not. Even though it is difficult to put your child on meds, if they need them, they need them----I am sure you wouldn't think twice if he was a diabetic and needed insulin every day whether you would give it to him or not. This is the same thing. You shouldn't look at it any differently just because it has to do with his brain and not his blood sugar.


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## Marylizah

I totally agree with the PP, mama.

You are doing everything-- EVERYTHING-- and it isn't working.

So now it's time to try something different.

Maybe helping him get his emotions under control will be the first step towards helping him process all his trauma.

I am so, so sorry for all you have gone through. I cannot imagine how horrific all these things have been for you.


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## Violet2

to you momma and your son.

I would try the medication. Once you guys get some breathing space, he may be able to heal enough to stop taking it, but you need to win that breathing space, no matter what it takes, to move forward.

V


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## heartmama

I did not see if you had tried diet modification?

Because of the trauma history I would look at www.tir.org and see if a certified therapist is your area. Sometimes they work with children, and it's a very gentle therapy.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

reading about the trauma you and your poor baby have gone through has brought me to tears. I am so sorry for everything have gone through and continue to go through.

You have received alot of good advice here. But I wonder.......................

Are you seeking some thereputic assitance for yourself? Your comments about being struck as a child, the trauma of the attempted break in, the HORRIFYING ABUSE of your little baby boy......Mama!! I would need atleast counseling for myself after such events. I wonder if alot of the behaviors your son is acting out have anything to do with your own sufferings being projected on a subconscience level? Im not saying that is the only root of the problem, I am just saying that while you are seeking help for your baby, i sure hope you are also seeking help for yourself.

Hoping you find peace for you and your little boy.


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## Dr.Worm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pomegranate* 
i couldn't read without at least giving you a







what you've been going through is obviously exhausting. you and your son are in my prayers.

Me too


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oubliette8* 
I would actually try to avoid using antipsychotics, particularly in a child so young. I've been prescribed them off-label as an adult, and they are pretty scary. One of them did give me involuntary muscle spasms- it was painful and scary. Thankfully we discontinued the medication as soon as they appeared and they went away fully. I have met people who weren't so lucky. Some studies have also shown that atypical antipsychotics cause brain shrinkage in monkeys. And while the risk of developing permanent movement disorders (called tardive dyskinesia) is lower than on older antipsychotics, the longer a person remains on the drug, the greater the chances that they will develop. If you remain on them long enough, the risk can become astronomical- and this is in adults, where the drug has been tested. I've also known people who's doctors response to the development of these tics is to prescirbe another medication to treat the tics, while keeping them on the medication that is causing the tics because "they need it". What if your son starts on the drug at 4 and never reaches a point where they feel he can come off? By the time he is 24 he'll have been exposed to it for 2 decades. I just wouldn't use it if at all possible in a child with a developing brain- I'm wary about their use in adults as it is. Its also worth saying, these drugs are prescribed off label for any number of things- just because your son responds in a certain way t one of these drugs does not mean he has a condition- psychiatric conditions are diagnosed by behaviors, not by response to medications, because we simply don't understand the causality yet.

That said, I'm unsure what to recommend in its place. Is play therapy otherwise working for your child? I would look at getting him some trauma therapy, if its not being focused on in play therapy. It might also be worth looking for another therapist who uses a different discipline system. The ideas she is using may just not be the right fit for your son. Could you get some behavioral counseling in your home? I know this is something that my therapist's office does, they have behavioral technicians who can come and observe your childs behaviors in your own home, and help you work on properly applying parenting techniques- sometimes hearing and seeing are two different things you know? Both for you, implementing the technique, and for your therapist, who only hears your description of the behaviors. I hope you find something that works, and something that you are comfortable with for your son.

A lot of what you've said here echoes my concerns as a parent, and as someone who has been on medications to treat mental health problems (depression) and had some very bad side effects, I know how serious these medications can be.

I am also seriously listening to those who think medication should be tried, but I have to wonder if trying it is dangerous in itself? Can the medication cause permanent damage or change to his brain? Reading this post definitely makes me concerned that we could end up with more problems than we started with.

One person said that this is just like giving a child medication for diabetes, and I agree that mental illness can be like a physical illness and need medication, but when a child is so young (he just turned four years old) how can we really know what's wrong with him? With diabetes, you can do a blood test and find out for sure that the child has diabetes. This isn't the case with mental problems. There are no tests.

Another thing that has been upsetting to me coming from the medical community is that they keep saying, "Well, with you being a single mom and not having as much support, this is needed." It makes me feel like if I were part of a couple that we could somehow handle this differently, but because I am a single mom, we might as well just medicate him.

It's so confusing and upsetting. It's hard having to make these decisions on my own, and also to know that if I do decide to give him medication, my parents will be furious about it.


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie:

Thanks for the post. Yes, I have been seeking counseling for myself, but I have Kaiser for insurance, and though I am allowed one visit per week for counseling under my benefits, I've only been receiving about one visit per month since they are so overbooked (I guess, or trying to save money, or both).

I do think that my son reacts strongly to my moods, and we've been under immense stress in the past few months. It's always been my worst fear that someone would try to break into my home to hurt me, and having that fear be realized was almost more than I could handle. Having my son there, a small child who was too terrified to cooperate with my instructions, made it a million times worse. I knew that my options to protect myself and him were much more limited with him there. By the time the police finally decided to show up (after two calls to 911, where I was begging and pleading for help) the man had almost completely broken our sliding glass door out of the wall. It was separated from the dry wall all the way around the door. He was literally moments from getting in, and he was armed with a box cutter and told the police he intended to use it on me.

Trying to deal with this on top of every day stresses, including my son, my job (I teach college and work the equivalent of almost two full time teaching jobs since I teach as an adjunct), and my parents (whom I feel tied to because I need SOME kind of help) has been almost more than I can bear.

I did call Kaiser yesterday to say that I REALLY needed help and needed to see someone more regularly. He really wanted to focus on me doing "deep breathing," as if that would magically solve all my problems. Finally I convinced him to get me in for EMDR therapy, which is the #1 therapy used for PTSD.

I feel like I haven't really been able to give my son a stable environment because of what we've been through over the past two years. Honestly, it has been complete hell. So sometimes that just makes me think maybe I am the one who needs medication! Maybe if I could be more calm, less depressed, more happy and upbeat and patient I could deal with him better.

I do really appreciate everyone's words of sympathy, support, and kindness. In the past two days I have sucked it up and drawn up all my remaining patience to be as kind and loving to my son as I can be, and he has improved, but there are still moments of incredible challenge every day. I don't know if I am completely ready to throw in the towel and try medication yet. Maybe I just need to try a little harder, a little longer.

Your words of encouragement do help give me strength and make me feel less alone, so thank you.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
reading about the trauma you and your poor baby have gone through has brought me to tears. I am so sorry for everything have gone through and continue to go through.

You have received alot of good advice here. But I wonder.......................

Are you seeking some thereputic assitance for yourself? Your comments about being struck as a child, the trauma of the attempted break in, the HORRIFYING ABUSE of your little baby boy......Mama!! I would need atleast counseling for myself after such events. I wonder if alot of the behaviors your son is acting out have anything to do with your own sufferings being projected on a subconscience level? Im not saying that is the only root of the problem, I am just saying that while you are seeking help for your baby, i sure hope you are also seeking help for yourself.

Hoping you find peace for you and your little boy.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DianeMarie* 
I thought as a medical person, I should reply.

And, as far as your parents "holding you responsible" if anything happens, screw them. First of all---you are an adult. You have a child. He is your child, not theirs----and frankly, it is none of their damned business what you do with him!! You do for your son what you feel you need to do to make his life and your life better. It sounds like they still have some sort of "control" over you, and use guilts trip to make you do what they want you to do. To hell with them. He is your son to raise, not theirs. You have to deal with his behaviors and outburts all the time, no them. Perhaps you should let them take him for a week or two and then see if they think he should be put on medication???? Let him bite them, kick them, hit them, spit on them for a few days and see how they like it----I can tell you, they won't. Don't feel like you have to *explain* why you are doing something to your parents!! It is none of their business what you are doing at all anynway!! You don't have to tell them that you put him on meds. You are a grown woman, living on her own with a child who need help. Do what you need to do to get him the help he needs.

*I agree with you that I am an adult (35 years old too!) and I deserve to be treated as one. This has been a LONG standing issue with my parents. The problem is that since my son does not see his father and I don't receive child support, my parents have been helping me by paying for his childcare, which make them (my dad in particular) think that they have a say in our lives. They also watch my son one or two nights a week (overnight) so I can work, so they do have him a good chunk of time. If he was on medication, they would have to give it to him when he was there, so they would have to know. Their behavior is completely shitty and completely unsupportive though. My brother and I minded them because we were terrified of them hitting and spanking us (which they've never done to my son and now say it was wrong). I just don't think they know what it's like to parent a child who isn't terrified of you.

I wish I could have them not be such a presence in my life, but right now I don't see any way around it that would really be feasible.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
It's really unfair of your parents using the fact that your DS is worse for you to say his behavior is your fault. Children's behavior is often worse for their primary caregiver because that's who they feel safest with. That's the person who will still love them and be nice to them regardless of what they do.

*I totally agree with you, and other people have told me that as well: "Kids are always the worst for their parents." Whenever my son acts up when my parents are around, my dad will always do this sort of snort and then say, "Well, he never acts like this for us! You need to do better than this," referring to me needing to do better. But if I try to put my son in time out, my dad will say, "We're not going to be doing time outs all day," as if it's his decision. It's like my son and I are the children, and they are the parents. It is really very shitty and painful.

Honestly, there are so many components to this mess that it's hard to know what's causing it. I think that's another thing that gives me pause. My son has had more trauma in his four years than many people have in 20 or 40 years. No one has ever diagnosed him with a mental disorder; they've only said that he has "emotional disregulation." Who wouldn't under similar circumstances?

To give a fair assessment of his behavior, I'd have to say that his aggression overall has decreased over the past year or so, but it's still at an unacceptable level, and simple things, like the activities of daily life, are often impossible because of his behavior (screaming, throwing himself down on the floor, refusing to walk, etc) even when that behavior isn't exactly aggressive.*


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## Bisou

Just to be clear, my son *has NOT been diagnosed as bipolar or with any mental illness of any kind*. They have only described him as having "emotional disregulation." I've asked about Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) because a therapist friend of mine said that's what it sounds like, and reading the description, that sounds like a pretty good description of his behavior.

Some of the people who read my description of my son's behavior have kids who are bipolar or know about bipolar disorder and thought it sounded like a possible diagnosis, but nothing has been diagnosed yet.

I guess if somone said, "Your son has X, and this is the recommended medication," maybe I would feel more convinced, just like the people who are mentioning diabetes and saying I'd give my son insulin if he had diabetes, right? Of course. To continue the analogy, this is like saying, "Something is wrong with your son, and we're not sure what it is, but we'd like to give him insulin and see if he feels better. If the insulin makes him sick, we can always stop it and try something else, like maybe medication to reduce his blood pressure." That's how it feels to me! It seems sort of like throwing darts while blindfolded and hoping to hit the right thing.


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## lonegirl

I think many people have given great advice. I have no experience with meds as such...
I wonder...Have you tried Martial Arts? This is an excellent place to help teach him about dealing with any anger/agression he may have. It is also a great outlet (the various heavy bags, not the other students







)


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## eclipse

If you're concerned about the side effects of this specific drug, you might consider asking if there's anything that isn't as "hard core" that you can try. Maybe talk withhis doctor/therapist about what different things might be going on and the different meds to treat those disorders and start with whatever medication has the least potential for serious side effects. For example, if they think he could have ADHD with an aggressive streak due to the trauma, maybe trying a commonly used ADHD med before moving to bipolar meds or antipsychotic meds might be worth trying. Is he getting enough sleep? Lack of sleep can cause serious behavior issues, so if sleep is a problem, you might start with a med designed specifically to regulate sleep.

How well does he speak? You said you were worried that he wasn't old enough to tell you if he was having side affects. At almost 4, I think most kids could tell you if the meds were making them feel weird. Two of my kids could have very clearly articulated what was wrong at that age. My current almost 4 year old has a pretty significant speech delay, but still is able to communicate when he's feeling ill, and generally can make me understand what's bugging him. I'm only asking because I'm wondering if communication issues are another piece to his puzzle. My youngest is far more aggressive than my olders were at his age, and I think a lot of it has to do with his communication skills. While my oldest could throw a whopper of a tantrum, he would also be able to clearly scream exactly what was bugging him, and I think that made him less likely to lash out physically. My youngest will walk up and wallop someone who has a toy he wants because he can't figure out how to ask for it.


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## Bisou

Dear Lightbearer:

Thank you for the "I love you." I just saw that at the end of your post and it made me cry. I can always count on MDC for the kindness of complete strangers, and to send out your love and compassion to someone you've never met (which MANY of you are doing! THANK YOU!) it really means a lot.

I think one way that the guilt comes in for me is that I am often just SO TIRED. I know I should be playing with him, interacting more, planning activities, but his behavior is so exhausting and my work schedule so demanding that I am just wiped out all the time. I've just started exercising again for the first time in five years, and I am hoping this will help me with my energy levels. I need to get back to the acupuncturist, chiropractor, and massage therapist. I need to recharge.

*I guess what I am really hoping for here, in addition to people's experiences with and thoughts on medication for children, I am also hoping for some ideas for one big last ditch effort.* I haven't completely given up hope yet, but neither do I want this behavior to go on too long. I know something has to change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheLightbearer* 
I would definitely try nature therapy and art therapy first. I have always had success with these and you do not need to be an expert in either of these fields to do them. Take your son into nature _every day_. Make it an adventure, especially let him dig in the dirt and help you plant and care for flowers, trees, etc...There is a wonderful book called Last Child in the Woods which is fantastic and I highly recommend it.
Leave art supplies in every area he plays in-clay, crayons, washable markers, watercolors. Cover your kitchen table with butcher paper instead of a table cloth and put crayons in a vase instead of flowers. Set up a messy zone where he can use paint unrestricted on large canvases or scraps of fabric. Shower curtains are great for covering flooring during painting.
If an adult went through the trauma that your son did, a lot of therapy would be prescribed. But he is a child and although medication will change his behavior, it will not heal what he has been through. Of course he is furious! I was too just reading what has happened to him. He has been betrayed by adults he trusted and that is no small thing. He needs the right kind of therapy which is age appropriate. I combine art and nature therapy and I have worked with some very aggressive children. It always works but I have found that they work better in conjunction than one or the other alone in serious cases.
I am sending you so much love and healing. Please feel free to contact me if you need any ideas. I know you can do this. Hang in there and take care of yourself, Mama. I love you.


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## Bisou

Actually, my son is extremely articulate. His vocabulary and understanding even at age two was developed enough that he told me, verbatim, "The teacher hit my penis" (whilst he was screaming and sobbing in pain as I removed his diaper and was wondering what the heck was going on!).

He is very bright. The only problem is that he often keeps his feelings to himself, or he will hint at things but not really explain it. He told me that he's been feeling "sad" at preschool, but when I tried to talk with him about it, he refused to tell me why. "I can't talk about it," he said.

I am concerned that he might not be able to explain feelings (physical or mental) that he has no words for. And again, I've read of some kids developing side effects on this medication that didn't go away after stopping the medication, so that concerns me as well.

Right now they are saying that this is "really the only thing" for his problem.

Honestly, sometimes I think I am exaggerating his behavior, but other people (including his therapist and, of course, my parents) have seen it, so I know I am not crazy. There have been times when, honestly, if I believed in demon possession, I would think he was possessed!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
How well does he speak? You said you were worried that he wasn't old enough to tell you if he was having side affects. At almost 4, I think most kids could tell you if the meds were making them feel weird. Two of my kids could have very clearly articulated what was wrong at that age. My current almost 4 year old has a pretty significant speech delay, but still is able to communicate when he's feeling ill, and generally can make me understand what's bugging him. I'm only asking because I'm wondering if communication issues are another piece to his puzzle. My youngest is far more aggressive than my olders were at his age, and I think a lot of it has to do with his communication skills. While my oldest could throw a whopper of a tantrum, he would also be able to clearly scream exactly what was bugging him, and I think that made him less likely to lash out physically. My youngest will walk up and wallop someone who has a toy he wants because he can't figure out how to ask for it.


----------



## Bisou

I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I have often worried about what my son might be like as an older child. Right now he's only four and he is almost too strong for me now!

One of my therapist friends said she thought my son might have ODD, and in reading the description, it sounds a lot like him. Of course I hope that all of this is just from the trauma he's been through in his short little life and that he will grow out of it.

Thanks so much for the book recommendation! I will definitely check it out!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairymom* 
My son (14) has ADHD and ODD (oppisitional deifiant disorder) and was very aggressive towards me.(At his worst he tried to strangle me w/a electric cord- I brought him to the ER because I didn't know what else i could do and the dr. didn't want to commit him because he was really upset w/himself and remorseful for what he'd done- he was off his meds- refusing to take them and agreed to take them willing as part of his plan to go home) He has been taking meds for his ADHD for the past 2 years and things for him/us have improved greatly!

I too tried to avoid meds for him (when he was 1st dx @ 8) and we tried lots of different more natural ways to help him but they did not work then. Some have helped NOW that's he's older- like elimination of sugars and food dyes. But as for right now we're continuing w/his meds. Its whats best for him.

When we were seeing a phsycoligist a few years ago she recommended the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene- not for the ADHD but for the ODD and the aggresive behavior. Its a really good book IMO and has good ideas on how to deal w/blowups- and I found it alot more gentle than some.

I am giving you my experience here w/my son. None of this my work for your but I really wanted you to know you're not alone in this and please- I know how easy it is- don't blame yourself or your parenting skills for this. I took me a long time not to blame myself and to realize this is him (but not his fault,IKWIM?) and I have to do my part as his parent and love him. BIG HUGS!

As for your parents and their OP- well its just that their OP and they can have it BUT they are not raising him or living w/him- and to be honset don't sound all that great in the first place. He's YOUR boy and YOU worry about him- forget about them. You don't even have to tell them if you decide to put him on meds- it none of their business!


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## Oubliette8

You asked if just trying the drug can be dangerous, and I'd have to say it can be. You never know how many doses it will take before tardive dyskinesia sets in, although the risk increases the longer it is taken. As an adult, when I developed extrapyramidal symptoms (uncontrollable muscle movements in my face and neck) I could not describe what was going on. I had no idea it was my medication. I would have continued taking it thinking I was otherwise ill, or that they were odd symptoms of my PTSD before I attributed it to the drugs. Thankfully my therapist took one look at me and told me to call my doctor ASAP. They weren't minor signs either- I had to bite my lip to keep it from curling up, and my neck was so sore that I could not hold my head up for more than a few minutes. Other, generally reversible symptoms can include increased agitation, and a sort of fogging of the your thinking. I often felt that I could not think, and attributed it to my mental health DX instead of the drugs at the time. I'm unsure that a 4 year old would be able to identify these issues, or say that they come from the medication. I'm not trying to scare you, merely trying to answer your question based on my experience. There are, of course, people who take these drugs with NO side effects and for whom they are beneficial.

I'm wondering, and I should say I'm not a doctor, if they would consider trying an anti-anxiety medication first? Risperidal is largely unstudied in young children, so I'm unsure if they would be any more inappropriate than that. it would still be off label usage. My thought being, if its a manifestation of Post traumatic stress, the acting out may be your sons way of dealing with his fears and anxiety that he cannot otherwise express. And anti-anxiety drugs generally have a calming effect. The upside is, they tend to have fewer, and less serious side effects than antipsychotics or antidepressants. It might be something to think about.

I do want to say that I've never been in your situation and have no idea what I would do if I was. I don't think there is any one right answer. Its great to see you are looking at all options, I'm sure whatever decision you make will be well supported.


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## eclipse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oubliette8* 
I'm wondering, and I should say I'm not a doctor, if they would consider trying an anti-anxiety medication first? Risperidal is largely unstudied in young children, so I'm unsure if they would be any more inappropriate than that. it would still be off label usage. My thought being, if its a manifestation of Post traumatic stress, the acting out may be your sons way of dealing with his fears and anxiety that he cannot otherwise express. And anti-anxiety drugs generally have a calming effect. The upside is, they tend to have fewer, and less serious side effects than antipsychotics or antidepressants. It might be something to think about.


This is sort of what I was getting at when I asked about talking to the doctors about other treatments. It seems like a big jump to go from no meds to something like Risperidal. While there are some people, probably even kids, who need meds like Risperidal, it seems like it's a huge jump if they haven't even officially diagnosed him with anything. I wonder if you're clear with them that you aren't willing to put him on Risperidal (even if you would consider it down the line) but are open to exploring other med options if they would come up with some other ideas. I would ask specifically about anti-anxiety meds.


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## zinemama

Given the violence inflicted on you by this child over the past four years, I would say you are past the point of seeking some "last ditch effort."

You have diligently sought and tried all sorts of things for your child. You have made what sounds like a huge effort to treat him using everything but meds.

It isn't working. I think you need to stop looking at the past (i.e. the trauma that may be playing into his behavior) and concentrate on the reality: the behavior itself. I am the last person to jump on the MEDICATE! bandwagon. If you hadn't tried anything else, I would suggest therapy. But you have tried other methods. You have tried very hard. It is time to try - just try - medication. Frankly, I can't imagine how any side effect could be worse than the behavior you both are dealing with every day.

I also think you should try your best to stop blaming your son's behavior on your moods or your parenting. Obviously there are many frazzled single mamas out there who lose it now and then with their children. Those children don't generally display the same extreme behaviors as your son. This isn't something you are causing.

It can't hurt to try the meds. As a pp suggested, you can certainly talk to your doctors about all the options out there. But as another pp's experience shows, I think you also need to be prepared to experiment until you find the dosage/med that works for your son.

Hang in there. And definitely, tell your folks to back off!


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## Oh the Irony

I've dealt with aggression and I'm a single mom. I'm also self-employed with two small business and I know of the overwhelm and guilt which you speak of. I feel for you, I really do. My son would go off for 30-60 minutes but not hours. That was hard enough.

My then 4 year old (now 5) would hit me, pull my hair, bite me, kick, scratch, throw things while I was driving etc. He is also in play therapy with someone who does EMDR. I also had to physically restrain him while he raged. I've felt anger and a desire to physically hurt him that I didn't know I had in me--my older son was and is so easy to deal with.

I was really, really concerned about kindy. About if he would make it and what the hell I would do if he didn't. (He talks ALL day long and as an introvert trying to work from home with inadequate childcare it was overwhelming me) And yeah, worse for me than for my parents who babysit.

My last ditch effort three weeks before school started:

1) Got him on the Feingold diet. www.feingold.com Aggression is one of the listed symptoms--take the little quiz for him. It takes some work to get set up, but is good after that.

2) Started using the Nurtured Heart approach from the book Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.
One of the big things for me in the book was about how our reactions energize the negative behaviors. They like the reactions. My son can totally push my buttons and I was giving him a "Show" for it. Toning down my reactions, setting clear expectations for behaviors, etc really helped.
He does suggest a point system but I find it quite different from some other systems. My son responded really well to it. You would need the book. This also takes some planning and effort.

It has been so worth it. The last time he hit me was BEFORE we started these. He can still be intense, but it is oh so much less. If he starts getting kind of wonky--I do look at myself immediately. Normally I'm stressed about something.

If he gets impatient, I may see how I've been impatient with him. And if I respond to him with impatience it all escalates QUICK. If I'm calm then he can get out of it.

My older son had panic attacks and anxiety/depression last year. I did everything I could think of: acupuncture, herbs, fish oil, counseling, therapeutic listening, OT for sensory issues, etc. I spent thousands of dollars that I really didn't have to spend. He still was having problems. Put him on meds and it was a HUGE shift. So not what I wanted but it has been a wonderful thing for him. I know that I tried my very best and so did he...

So yeah, make another big push just so you know you've done what you can do. Do what you can--emotionally and financially. And then do a trial of the meds to see what happens if you need to. It doesn't have to be forever. And certainly look into options.

eta: crossposted with zinemama. I agree that you don't need to do a last ditch effort but if it will give you some peace then go ahead...
I've also been wanting to check this out: www.beyondconsequences.com I haven't read the books so excuse me if they are yucky.









Great big hugs for you. It is really, really challenging.

eta: I hesitated to post this as my issues weren't on the level you describe but it seemed like you really wanted any ideas you could get.


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## Satori

You son hasn't been dx'd as mentally ill/bipolar yet because of his age. The behaviors you are describing however are textbook for a bipolar child and many of the mama's on this thread who have mentioned BP do so because we have BP kids and know the hell your going though. Get the book I recommended and read it. Believe me, I understand how hard it is to accept a mental health dx, I waited 5 months before I could even admit it to my parents and it was dd herself who told my mother that she was bipolar not understanding the stigma attached to such a dx. I was scared to death to even try meds but it got to the point I had to remove dd from the home because she became so violent and there was serious fear of CPS stepping in a removing my younger dd to protect her and the only way to prevent it was to remove older dd for 3 months while we started meds. The difference is night and day and I regret not starting meds years ago because of the amount of damage done to the mother/child bond because of the BP symptoms.

I had a really hard time deciding to try meds, we had a behaviorist by the time dd was 2 due to the severity of her temper tantrums and it only for worse from there. I started a thread back when TSHTF earlier this year and I finally made the decision to medicate. I think it might help you to read it and our experience in trying Risperdal. I have posted all though the thread and I strongly encourage you to read the whole thing http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1045812

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Just to be clear, my son *has NOT been diagnosed as bipolar or with any mental illness of any kind*. They have only described him as having "emotional disregulation." I've asked about Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) because a therapist friend of mine said that's what it sounds like, and reading the description, that sounds like a pretty good description of his behavior.

Some of the people who read my description of my son's behavior have kids who are bipolar or know about bipolar disorder and thought it sounded like a possible diagnosis, but nothing has been diagnosed yet.

I guess if somone said, "Your son has X, and this is the recommended medication," maybe I would feel more convinced, just like the people who are mentioning diabetes and saying I'd give my son insulin if he had diabetes, right? Of course. To continue the analogy, this is like saying, "Something is wrong with your son, and we're not sure what it is, but we'd like to give him insulin and see if he feels better. If the insulin makes him sick, we can always stop it and try something else, like maybe medication to reduce his blood pressure." That's how it feels to me! It seems sort of like throwing darts while blindfolded and hoping to hit the right thing.


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## zipworth

Hugs to you Bisou, you are a wonderful mother and are clearly doing the best you can.


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## stik

I apologize if I'm repeating things other posters have said - I haven't read the whole thread yet, just your post.

I have dealt with children whose behaviors were as severe as your son's. I am not a doctor and I cannot diagnose, and my experience was not recent. However, your son's behavior reminds me of the psychotic children I used to work with. It's very typical for children to direct their aggression at trusted caregivers. It's also common for mentally ill children to be abused by caregivers - this can be both a cause and an effect of their condition.

I know that psychotropic medication for children is frightening. Very few medications have been studied for safety in children, and they all have side effects. However, there are cases when the child's symptoms are more dangerous than the side effects of the medication. The behaviors you have described are more dangerous for your son and others around him than the side effects of Risperdal.

Risperdal has been used in children for at least the past 15 years. It is a very serious medication. Responsible doctors prescribe it only to children whose symptoms are extreme.

I can understand why you are uncomfortable with the idea of giving your son Risperdal. I can also understand why his doctors want to prescribe it for him. The behaviors you have described are symptoms of serious mental illness.

You can't cure mental illness with behavioral intervention, because the child's internal stimuli overwhelm and block out the external stimuli you are trying to provide to modify the child's behavior.

It is clear from your post that your son needs medical treatment for his mental illness. This should include therapy. Honestly, when a child's behavior is this extreme, treatment typically needs to include medication.


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## Maiasaura

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
My parents have made it very clear that if we try medication and anything goes wrong, they are going to hold me responsible.

Well...your parents aren't raising your son, you are. They had their chance to raise kids when they had you, and now it's your turn. What you do with your son is your business. I don't mean to come off harsh here, but my mom gets in my stuff about how my son is raised, too, and I hear so much of parent/MIL/FIL meddling from other people too, that it's just one of my hot spots







You don't even have to let them know if he gets diagnosed with anything, or if you try him on meds-- it truly is none of their business. Nor anyone else's but YOURS







Egads, made it clear? _They_ are going to hold _you_ responsible?? For what? Sorry, just going off on a rant, here...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
It takes a lot of energy to engage with him and direct him positively without doing too much of "No, don't do that. Stop that! Put that down!" and just picking on every little thing he is doing instead of using a more positive approach.

Sigh....oh, yes, how I know. Maybe it might help you, if not him, to tell him what he _can_ do. Even if you are telling him the exact same thing, at least it's phrased in the positive. That helps me a lot-- I don't know whether it helps my son, honestly







but it makes ME feel not so negative.
The other thing I do is-- I've adopted something from my son's first and second grade classrooms. They have something they call "compliments". There's a jar full of marbles, or those flat fake jewely things that are sort of like colored rocks, in the classroom. Whenever an adult gives the kids (or one kid) a <verbal> compliment, a "compliment" (marble) goes into the jar. If it's an adult that's not related to the school, such as a parent volunteer, they get two "compliments" for one compliment. To clarify, the marbles are actually called "compliments".
I now have a compliment jar at home. My son has it in his room. I have my own jar of marbles and I give him compliments all the time-- for doing things that I want him to do, but I didn't have to ask, for good behavior, for helping without complaint, for doing extra chores, you name it. It's good for both of us-- he earns a special treat of his choosing when the jar's full, and I am training myself to notice the good in him, not just the bad. AND he is motivated to behave better. Yes, it's reward-based, but the reward is so long in coming that it's more about behavior than reward (there's a quart mason jar to fill, after all).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
For the people who mentioned bi-polar disorder or have bi-polar kids, were your kids having problems in all situations (home, school, etc)? I know you're not medical experts, but what do you make of him being able to control his behavior at preschool and (to a certain extent) with his grandparents but not so much with me?

Mostly. But not always. He had some pretty bad behavior all the way around, and I've had daycares and schools call me pretty consistently.
I think, about the selective behavior with your ds, that he probably knows the boundaries of whoever is caring for him, as in, what they will put up with. Maybe. I'm no expert.
Like I said, too, I'm not positive my kid is bipolar, yet, but it runs in his family, so wouldn't be surprised.
Frankly, if he is, I'm glad it's a possibility we caught it early. I would way rather he be on meds now, than self-medicate later, 'cause both sides of his family are rife with addiction. Including me and his father.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
For those of you with bipolar kids, what were they like as babies? Did you find them to be difficult babies as well?

Exceedingly. He was so hyper in utero that I remember saying to the tech who did our ultrasound-- I'd gone in just the once, to see if my baby would tell me his sex-- that "if he's that hyper IN, I can not imagine what he'll be like OUT". I wanted him (oh, naive mom, me) tested for ADHD at nine months old. He had severe, severe colic for three months-- 3 hours of unconsolable screaming and crying, every day, at random times, from 2 weeks old till about 3-1/2 months old. He was violentish and hyper as a toddler. We couldn't go to any playgrounds that weren't fenced in, because he'd run away-- INTO the street. On purpose. At age 3, when I could finally leave him for a half hour in the mornings in front of a video to get some extra sleep, one day I woke up to find him in his little baby rocking chair, with my two biggest butcher knives in each hand, and a sh*t-eating grin on his face.
At 5, he beat up his best friend at said friend's birthday party-- attacked him from the back.
It's been a long haul, yep. We've come such a long way since then!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Enudely* 
My friend has a kid with pretty bad ADHD and she gets really annoyed when someone suggests that the illness can be cured by eliminating sugar from his diet or taking him out into the woods a lot.

OH yeah. I can so totally relate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kismet_fw* 
I have a nephew who was diagnosed as ADHD very young, with bouts of very odd, sometimes aggressive behavior, and meds did help him. But my sister in law also found out that limiting foods with certain dyes and other chemicals helped reduce the amount of triggered events he was having.

It made a difference for us, when DS was little. Not so much now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kismet_fw* 
This is SO much for you to handle with him, but by eliminating one thing at a time for a month or so to see if there is a difference, you might be able to identify something. At this point, anything that will help reduce the load on your shoulders is good.

That's pretty good advice all the way 'round, for everybody, I think-- simplify, simplify, simplify. I wonder now that I've ever needed dryer sheets! Somehow I just don't get static anymore. And I haven't used one in years.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oubliette8* 
just because your son responds in a certain way t one of these drugs does not mean he has a condition- psychiatric conditions are diagnosed by behaviors, not by response to medications, because we simply don't understand the causality yet.

Oh, mama, don't get me wrong--I wasn't suggesting a diagnosis. It's just one of those many, many AA sayings. I was just saying, it's a possibility that if something works, well...it works. And if it's an off-label use, and it works for what they say it works for-- well, the OPs son has _something_, cause most kids don't act like that, so if some med can help them for awhile...well, I no longer see that as a bad thing. Their lives are pretty well disrupted right now. One of my DS's meds is a blood pressure med, I think. I'm dubious, too, but they help him, and considering what it was like before, well, I'm willing to have him stay on them for awhile.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 







I have a cousin who had a seizure on medication for bi-polar. It was horrible. But she needs the medication to function and be a mom to her son. She just needed something different. There are lots of medications for different disorders that can be tried. It sounds like you're a really attentive mom, so he will have you to pay attention to him to see what's going on there.

That's one of those decisions where you have to decide if the cure is worse or is the disease worse. Those are tough decisions, sometimes.


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## VisionaryMom

My son is much the same as yours. He also is 4 and has been this way since birth as well. His behavior seems to escalate regardless of what we do. We also have been told that attachment parenting is bad for him and that we've allowed his behavior because we're not tough/don't make him afraid of us.

I don't have advice because we're at the same place. DH lost it last night and went off about how angry and hurt he is (to me, not DS). I am the "landing spot" for DS's anger, which is frustrating because I am his biggest advocate.

As for the Risperdal, we don't medicate. I myself have taken Risperdal, and it's not a safe drug in many cases. It's not something I would give DS unless I absolutely had no choice (and we may get there). I have a real problem with psych drugs for a developing brain, so I do understand your concerns there. I know that some mamas here have Clonidine prescriptions for their LOs with aggression so that they can give it to control the outbursts, etc, but not necessarily medicate constantly.


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## Bisou

Hi mama:

I really appreciate your post! If I am reading it correctly, it sounds like you put your older child on medication (after trying all other options) but not your younger child?

I have been giving it my ALL the past few days, trying to really engage with my son, be upbeat, patient, creative in trying to ward off outbursts (yet without just caving into him and letting him run me like a little dictator, as he sometimes tries to do), and things are going better. Sometimes it does seem like my efforts make a difference, but it takes GREAT effort on my part, and other times it doesn't seem to help at all.

I am not quite ready to try medication yet. Not yet. But I am certainly weighing all options, and it's good to hear about other people's experiences with both medication and non-medication options.

The trauma of the break in, resulting in our move and losing all of our neighborhood friends, and then the force-feeding situation at his daycare resulting in a move to a new daycare, is only a few months old (it happened in May and June). Actually, he was doing MUCH better before all this terrible crap happened, as was I.

I totally see what other posters are saying that I shouldn't blame his behavior entirely on my moods and frustration, and I know that's not the full picture. He has always been a "challenging" child, and it seems like his behavior really ramps up when things are stressful in our lives and calms down when they are not so chaotic.

I do have to say that his aggression is less frequent than it was before we started play therapy, but it's still not entirely gone. He is also reckless and rough, at times, and I almost wonder if he is doing it on purpose, or is it really an accident? Only a few days ago I was following him out of the bedroom and he slammed the bedroom door into my face (it's a very heavy, solid door). It was like someone hit me with a baseball bat; it dropped me to the ground, screaming and crying in pain. It seemed like possibly an accident, like he didn't know I was right behind him, but even when he's being "good" he always seems to be hurting me. When we are playing, he will do things like throw his head back and smash it into my face, and I can't tell what his intentions are in doing that. Sometimes it seems like he gets so wild he just isn't thinking. He is a very active child (and I make sure he gets LOTS of exercise, as much as 1-3 hours of very active outside time daily), but they've never suggested ADD/ADHD.

They've never given a diagnosis of any kind, so far, even when I've asked.

Anyway, again, thanks to all of you who are posting. I find it extremely helpful to hear all these different perspectives, and it's also nice to know that I am not the only mom dealing with this sort of thing.

THANK YOU!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oh the Irony* 
I've dealt with aggression and I'm a single mom. I'm also self-employed with two small business and I know of the overwhelm and guilt which you speak of. I feel for you, I really do. My son would go off for 30-60 minutes but not hours. That was hard enough.

My then 4 year old (now 5) would hit me, pull my hair, bite me, kick, scratch, throw things while I was driving etc. He is also in play therapy with someone who does EMDR. I also had to physically restrain him while he raged. I've felt anger and a desire to physically hurt him that I didn't know I had in me--my older son was and is so easy to deal with.

I was really, really concerned about kindy. About if he would make it and what the hell I would do if he didn't. (He talks ALL day long and as an introvert trying to work from home with inadequate childcare it was overwhelming me) And yeah, worse for me than for my parents who babysit.

My last ditch effort three weeks before school started:

1) Got him on the Feingold diet. www.feingold.com Aggression is one of the listed symptoms--take the little quiz for him. It takes some work to get set up, but is good after that.

2) Started using the Nurtured Heart approach from the book Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.
One of the big things for me in the book was about how our reactions energize the negative behaviors. They like the reactions. My son can totally push my buttons and I was giving him a "Show" for it. Toning down my reactions, setting clear expectations for behaviors, etc really helped.
He does suggest a point system but I find it quite different from some other systems. My son responded really well to it. You would need the book. This also takes some planning and effort.

It has been so worth it. The last time he hit me was BEFORE we started these. He can still be intense, but it is oh so much less. If he starts getting kind of wonky--I do look at myself immediately. Normally I'm stressed about something.

If he gets impatient, I may see how I've been impatient with him. And if I respond to him with impatience it all escalates QUICK. If I'm calm then he can get out of it.

My older son had panic attacks and anxiety/depression last year. I did everything I could think of: acupuncture, herbs, fish oil, counseling, therapeutic listening, OT for sensory issues, etc. I spent thousands of dollars that I really didn't have to spend. He still was having problems. Put him on meds and it was a HUGE shift. So not what I wanted but it has been a wonderful thing for him. I know that I tried my very best and so did he...

So yeah, make another big push just so you know you've done what you can do. Do what you can--emotionally and financially. And then do a trial of the meds to see what happens if you need to. It doesn't have to be forever. And certainly look into options.

eta: crossposted with zinemama. I agree that you don't need to do a last ditch effort but if it will give you some peace then go ahead...
I've also been wanting to check this out: www.beyondconsequences.com I haven't read the books so excuse me if they are yucky.









Great big hugs for you. It is really, really challenging.

eta: I hesitated to post this as my issues weren't on the level you describe but it seemed like you really wanted any ideas you could get.


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## Bisou

That is interesting what you said about your son being hyper in utero, because my son was EXACTLY the same way! He kicked and squirmed and pushed constantly. It was just crazy. I used to tell people it was like having a wild horse trying to kick down a stall in there.

I am also with you on parents/grandparents butting in. I know that my grandparents (mom's parents) NEVER did that with us when we were kids. They just held their tongues. I think because my parents are helping me financially (paying for my son's childcare) and with babysitting, they feel like I am a dependent too, and they treat me like a child, which pisses me off to no end!!!! I am 35, have a Masters degree, teach college, and have many other accomplishments under my belt. It's not like I am a loser, but my parents have sort of always treated me that way. Even when I was in high school and an A student, debate team captain, star of most of the musicals, choir president, and working a part-time job (from the age of 14), they still thought I was a drug addict (not even close!) and irresponsible. Man, they should've traded me for one of my classmates to have a clear picture of just how good they had it!!!!

I am going off on a rant, but obviously my relationship with my parents is a hot topic for me, and since having my son, it's gone completely into the toilet. It's just NOT good at all.









Anyway, again, thanks for the wonderful insight. Every time I come to MDC for support, I am never disappointed!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maiasaura* 

Exceedingly. He was so hyper in utero that I remember saying to the tech who did our ultrasound-- I'd gone in just the once, to see if my baby would tell me his sex-- that "if he's that hyper IN, I can not imagine what he'll be like OUT". I wanted him (oh, naive mom, me) tested for ADHD at nine months old. He had severe, severe colic for three months-- 3 hours of unconsolable screaming and crying, every day, at random times, from 2 weeks old till about 3-1/2 months old. He was violentish and hyper as a toddler. We couldn't go to any playgrounds that weren't fenced in, because he'd run away-- INTO the street. On purpose. At age 3, when I could finally leave him for a half hour in the mornings in front of a video to get some extra sleep, one day I woke up to find him in his little baby rocking chair, with my two biggest butcher knives in each hand, and a sh*t-eating grin on his face.
At 5, he beat up his best friend at said friend's birthday party-- attacked him from the back.
It's been a long haul, yep. We've come such a long way since then!


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## Bisou

I would agree with you to a certain extent, except that he has not been diagnosed with a mental illness at this point. They haven't even suggested it or said, "Well, he's too young to be diagnosed at this point, but he probably has X." They just say he has "emotional disregulation." I guess if they were completely convinced that he had a mental illness, I might be more inclined to go in this direction.

My son has just been through SO much, and I think, honestly, he is angry and scared and is acting out because of that. Both his dad (who is not in the picture at all) and I have very strong personalities, and my son is very strong willed and also extremely bright.

I am not saying he doesn't have a mental illness, but one has not been diagnosed or even suggested yet, and I have to wonder if he is just acting out in extreme rage because of the horrors that he's faced as a young child that he has no way of controlling.

Maybe I am just making excuses for him, but it seems to make sense to me. . . . . .

Thanks for hanging in there with me, everyone, while I work this out. I do appreciate it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stik* 
I apologize if I'm repeating things other posters have said - I haven't read the whole thread yet, just your post.

I have dealt with children whose behaviors were as severe as your son's. I am not a doctor and I cannot diagnose, and my experience was not recent. However, your son's behavior reminds me of the psychotic children I used to work with. It's very typical for children to direct their aggression at trusted caregivers. It's also common for mentally ill children to be abused by caregivers - this can be both a cause and an effect of their condition.

I know that psychotropic medication for children is frightening. Very few medications have been studied for safety in children, and they all have side effects. However, there are cases when the child's symptoms are more dangerous than the side effects of the medication. The behaviors you have described are more dangerous for your son and others around him than the side effects of Risperdal.

Risperdal has been used in children for at least the past 15 years. It is a very serious medication. Responsible doctors prescribe it only to children whose symptoms are extreme.

I can understand why you are uncomfortable with the idea of giving your son Risperdal. I can also understand why his doctors want to prescribe it for him. The behaviors you have described are symptoms of serious mental illness.

You can't cure mental illness with behavioral intervention, because the child's internal stimuli overwhelm and block out the external stimuli you are trying to provide to modify the child's behavior.

It is clear from your post that your son needs medical treatment for his mental illness. This should include therapy. Honestly, when a child's behavior is this extreme, treatment typically needs to include medication.


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## Bisou

*Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will definitely check out the book you recommended along with all the other books people have recommended.

I am so glad that medication worked for your daughter and family, and it sounds like you went through the same gut-wrenching decision making process that I am going through.

It definitely has damaged the bond between my son and I, and my feelings are worse some times than they are others. This past week he had one day of tantrums for about six hours. While he wasn't being extremely violent, he was screaming, thrashing around on the floor, and completely out of control emotionally for hours. I was just trying to get him dressed to go do something fun! It was my day off and I had planned to take him to the zoo, or the park, and lunch---things he normally loves to do. It makes no sense. He should be thrilled to get dressed and go, but he wasn't. He also wasn't thrilled to stay home and relax. It was a no-win situation.

When I was finally able to get him dressed and out of the house, I had completely shut down. I wouldn't even talk to him or look at him anymore. He was saying, "I love you mommy. You love me, right?" but I wouldn't answer him. In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell is wrong with you? (You being ME, not my son.) Are you a f*king heartless monster or what? He's only four! He's a baby! Tell him you love him you awful bitch!" but I just couldn't even bring myself to engage with him.







His six hours of tantrums finally ended with me sobbing and lying on my bed and just completely broken. From there I totally shut down.

I definitely don't want to be that kind of mom. I don't want to be emotionally unavailable. I don't want to be cruel. If we have too many more days like that, medication will have to be an option.

Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

I wish they could do some sort of blood test or brain scan to know what's REALLY going on with a child. If there could be a certain diagnosis, like "Yes, we have positive confirmation that your child does have X," like they can with diabetes or high blood pressure, it would make this a whole lot easier.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
You son hasn't been dx'd as mentally ill/bipolar yet because of his age. The behaviors you are describing however are textbook for a bipolar child and many of the mama's on this thread who have mentioned BP do so because we have BP kids and know the hell your going though. Get the book I recommended and read it. Believe me, I understand how hard it is to accept a mental health dx, I waited 5 months before I could even admit it to my parents and it was dd herself who told my mother that she was bipolar not understanding the stigma attached to such a dx. I was scared to death to even try meds but it got to the point I had to remove dd from the home because she became so violent and there was serious fear of CPS stepping in a removing my younger dd to protect her and the only way to prevent it was to remove older dd for 3 months while we started meds. The difference is night and day and I regret not starting meds years ago because of the amount of damage done to the mother/child bond because of the BP symptoms.

I had a really hard time deciding to try meds, we had a behaviorist by the time dd was 2 due to the severity of her temper tantrums and it only for worse from there. I started a thread back when TSHTF earlier this year and I finally made the decision to medicate. I think it might help you to read it and our experience in trying Risperdal. I have posted all though the thread and I strongly encourage you to read the whole thing http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1045812


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## Bisou

*This is good information. Thanks for sharing it.

I know several posters on here have had children with similar problems and had great results with medication, even the one I've been offered for my son, but it's hard not to be scared. Even my son's therapist seemed a little surprised, even shocked, that this was the first medication they wanted to try. She said, "Was that the ONLY option you were offered?"

The other options the therapist recommended were getting a second opinion from a child psychiatrist, getting involved with some sort of intervention program through the school district, or (an idea she didn't like) calling DHS, the department of human services, which is like CPS. This was suggested by the behavioral pediatrician, but the therapist didn't think this was a good option.

I guess I am also concerned with getting him involved in a program through the schools because I hate to have him labeled as a problematic kid before he even has problems at school. He has not had ANY behavioral problems at his past two daycares, and I've asked every single teacher: "Is he cooperative? Does he listen? Does he get along well with the other kids?
and I've only heard YES, YES, YES. The worst he has done is not wanting to share a ball and throwing it over the fence so no one could have it (as in "If I have to share it, then no one can have it!"). This isn't good, but it doesn't seem like totally awful behavior. This definitely makes the whole thing much more confusing for me. If he had a mental illness, wouldn't he be having some noticeable problems at preschool? He's been in childcare for two years and has never had any behavioral problems except for right after the abuse that happened at his first daycare.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oubliette8* 
You asked if just trying the drug can be dangerous, and I'd have to say it can be. You never know how many doses it will take before tardive dyskinesia sets in, although the risk increases the longer it is taken. As an adult, when I developed extrapyramidal symptoms (uncontrollable muscle movements in my face and neck) I could not describe what was going on. I had no idea it was my medication. I would have continued taking it thinking I was otherwise ill, or that they were odd symptoms of my PTSD before I attributed it to the drugs. Thankfully my therapist took one look at me and told me to call my doctor ASAP. They weren't minor signs either- I had to bite my lip to keep it from curling up, and my neck was so sore that I could not hold my head up for more than a few minutes. Other, generally reversible symptoms can include increased agitation, and a sort of fogging of the your thinking. I often felt that I could not think, and attributed it to my mental health DX instead of the drugs at the time. I'm unsure that a 4 year old would be able to identify these issues, or say that they come from the medication. I'm not trying to scare you, merely trying to answer your question based on my experience. There are, of course, people who take these drugs with NO side effects and for whom they are beneficial.

I'm wondering, and I should say I'm not a doctor, if they would consider trying an anti-anxiety medication first? Risperidal is largely unstudied in young children, so I'm unsure if they would be any more inappropriate than that. it would still be off label usage. My thought being, if its a manifestation of Post traumatic stress, the acting out may be your sons way of dealing with his fears and anxiety that he cannot otherwise express. And anti-anxiety drugs generally have a calming effect. The upside is, they tend to have fewer, and less serious side effects than antipsychotics or antidepressants. It might be something to think about.

I do want to say that I've never been in your situation and have no idea what I would do if I was. I don't think there is any one right answer. Its great to see you are looking at all options, I'm sure whatever decision you make will be well supported.


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## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
*
When I was finally able to get him dressed and out of the house, I had completely shut down. I wouldn't even talk to him or look at him anymore. He was saying, "I love you mommy. You love me, right?" but I wouldn't answer him. In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell is wrong with you? (You being ME, not my son.) Are you a f*king heartless monster or what? He's only four! He's a baby! Tell him you love him you awful bitch!" but I just couldn't even bring myself to engage with him.







His six hours of tantrums finally ended with me sobbing and lying on my bed and just completely broken. From there I totally shut down.
*

BTDT many many times but I was thinking "WTF is wrong with you!?" for both of us. I did become emotionally unavailable after years of constantly being beaten down by her. I was near suicidal because I just couldn't take it anymore from her and it felt like that was my only option and I was seriously considering giving her up for adoption as well hoping to find a family that could better meet her needs because I obviously wasn't but what I didn't understand was my dd was/is mentally ill and I wasn't treating that illness. The Dr's KNEW back when she was only 5 she had a mood disorder and labeled her as severely disabled but I didn't know it until recently when I got copies of her records to apply for SSI. They knew she was bipolar but becasue of her age they couldn't dx it nor did they ever mention it to me. I only found out about the dx on total accident when the Dr put the ICD9 code on her lab work order and I googled it and it came back as BP1 and I called and asked about it and he called me back and explained it and strongly encouraged me to read about it online and recently published books on childhood BP and so I did and it was like "OMG!!!! Someone wrote books about my dd!" I mean just page after page after page it was literally like someone personally knew my dd and wrote a book about her and it just explained so much about her and gave me answers to the "WTF is wrong with you!?" question that was always in the back of my mind with her.

You mention any stress makes things worse for your son, thats very very common with mental illness and while you can do everything possible to make things stress free his mind is still a mess and he needs help clearing it. My dd spent 3 months living with my parents while we got things under control but when she came home there was more stress all around and we needed to add a mood stabilizer and opted for Lamictal and between the Risperdal and Lamictal we've got a really good combo and she's a totally different child, one I never dreamed I could have. She still drives me crazy a lot but she no longer pushes me to the edge and adoption is totally off the table. She still acts out on occasion but NOTHING like before, before I was terrified to turn my back on her for fear she'd hit me in the head with something heavy (she would throw what ever was closest to her at me when in her fits and it didn't matter what it was and it didn't matter if I was holding the baby). Now I don't worry so much since the demon seems to have left and sorry but for a long time she did act like she was possessed and just so full of anger, hatred and violence. With meds thats no longer the case. Well most days


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## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
*If he had a mental illness, wouldn't he be having some noticeable problems at preschool? He's been in childcare for two years and has never had any behavioral problems except for right after the abuse that happened at his first daycare.*

This is a common misconception, there able to hold it together for short periods of time but after a while they just sort of explode and thats usually when mom the safety net shows up. One of the reasons I pulled my dd from school was while she as a perfect angel at school she became a demon by the time we got home just 5 minutes later because she couldn't keep up the behavior and all the pent us frustrations of the day came pouring out. They know its not socially acceptable to act that way and it still boggles my mind that they can keep it together then lose it when mom shows up. I just keep thinking why can't they continue to keep it together? But the truth is they just can't, its to taxing on them. Its explained in detail in that book I suggested.

I need to get ready for school but I'm sure other mama's can answer questions as well.


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## Bisou

*I hate to admit thinking about adoption at times too, only for brief moments. But my thought process would go like this, "I can't handle this! I'm going to have to give him up! I can't be his mom anymore! I can't!!!! But I couldn't live with that decision! I'd have to kill myself!" Not fun.

My parents have offered to take him, but having him raised by my parents is NOT an option. They are not emotionally healthy people at all. They were completely emotionally unavailable to me when I was growing up (as well as now) and both emotionally and physically abusive. (They have never showed this behavior with my son, except for one time when my dad gave my son one swat on his behind. I was FURIOUS and told them that if he was ever spanked again they'd never see him again, even if that made my life completely miserable!)

I was single when I found out I was pregnant. I had been broken up for about 2 1/2-3 months from his dad because I had FINALLY extricated myself from the really crappy relationship that it was (after 2 1/2 years of dating), and then I found out I was just about three months pregnant! Since I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and was told I couldn't have kids, and was already 30 and had never been pregnant, while I briefly considered terminating the pregnancy, that really wasn't a question. Adoption was just way too painful to even think about. I felt like I had been handed a wonderful, miraculous gift, and while I knew single parenthood would be extremely hard, I didn't think it would be THIS hard! Not even close. I expected maybe 80-90% joy and 10-20% hardship. Instead most of the times it seems like I got the reverse: 80-90% hardship and 10-20% joy.

I have been single now for five years (from the pregnancy until now), and it's been so hard. I haven't even tried to date. I have no social life. I have no time to exercise because I have way too much work to do. I have lost pretty much all of my friends because I just don't have time to do anything with my work and parenting responsibilities. It's just grueling. I keep thinking that something has to change, but there's just not much wiggle room with anything. If I want to add something to my life (like yoga before bed), the only way to accomplish that is by cutting out more sleep. I am sure I am not the only single mom in this situation, but adding my son's behavior to this makes the strain of single parenthood nearly impossible.

It's shocking that the doctors/therapists put that diagnosis down but didn't tell you about it. I am surprised that they wouldn't have said something like "Well, we can't give her an official diagnosis at this age, but we think she is bipolar. We won't be able to diagnose this for sure until she is older.

The medical profession can be so frustrating at times!!!

It's also interesting about what you said about your daughter being able to hold it together at school and not with you. Sometimes when I pick my son up at preschool, I can't even get him in the car because he throws a big screaming fit, and it's so embarrassing! I always thought maybe it was the stress of missing me all day, or sometimes he would feel like other kids hurt his feelings, or if the teacher told him not to do something, even very gently, he'd be all devastated about it and be very upset. He has such a hard time, but I do find that if I sit with him or hold him and try to talk to him and listen to his concerns and upset, sometimes that helps. When it's nice, we always also go to a nice park in the hills and I let him play for two hours or more! He never seems to get tired though. I have taken him hiking straight up a hill for an hour (and he was only 3 at the time!) and he was completely fine! Not tired in the least!

I know what you mean about the "demon" part though. I said in another post that sometimes I think that's the only explanation.

Thinking on the genetic side, I don't know that his dad was bipolar, but he was certainly irrational. We would be all cuddled on the couch, watching a movie, having a great time, then this change would come over his face and he'd say something totally out of the blue like, "Don't even try to lie to me! I know what you've been doing, you bitch!" I'd be saying, "WHAT? What are you talking about?" He was always accusing me of cheating, which I never did. I never even flirted or talked to another guy. I am not that kind of person. He was so irrational though and would fly into rages. In my opinion, he almost seemed like he had multiple personality disorder. His behavior never seemed to fit the descriptions I've read of BPD in adults, though I've never known anyone with BPD. He never hit me but he did push and do other rough/dangerous behavior, like driving 90 miles an hour in a 45 mph zone to terrorize me. He was the WORST person I could've gotten pregnant from---of course! Seems to be my luck.

Anyway, sort of rambling again. All this brings up a lot of different thoughts for me.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
BTDT many many times but I was thinking "WTF is wrong with you!?" for both of us. I did become emotionally unavailable after years of constantly being beaten down by her. I was near suicidal because I just couldn't take it anymore from her and it felt like that was my only option and I was seriously considering giving her up for adoption as well hoping to find a family that could better meet her needs because I obviously wasn't but what I didn't understand was my dd was/is mentally ill and I wasn't treating that illness. The Dr's KNEW back when she was only 5 she had a mood disorder and labeled her as severely disabled but I didn't know it until recently when I got copies of her records to apply for SSI. They knew she was bipolar but becasue of her age they couldn't dx it nor did they ever mention it to me. I only found out about the dx on total accident when the Dr put the ICD9 code on her lab work order and I googled it and it came back as BP1 and I called and asked about it and he called me back and explained it and strongly encouraged me to read about it online and recently published books on childhood BP and so I did and it was like "OMG!!!! Someone wrote books about my dd!" I mean just page after page after page it was literally like someone personally knew my dd and wrote a book about her and it just explained so much about her and gave me answers to the "WTF is wrong with you!?" question that was always in the back of my mind with her.

You mention any stress makes things worse for your son, thats very very common with mental illness and while you can do everything possible to make things stress free his mind is still a mess and he needs help clearing it. My dd spent 3 months living with my parents while we got things under control but when she came home there was more stress all around and we needed to add a mood stabilizer and opted for Lamictal and between the Risperdal and Lamictal we've got a really good combo and she's a totally different child, one I never dreamed I could have. She still drives me crazy a lot but she no longer pushes me to the edge and adoption is totally off the table. She still acts out on occasion but NOTHING like before, before I was terrified to turn my back on her for fear she'd hit me in the head with something heavy (she would throw what ever was closest to her at me when in her fits and it didn't matter what it was and it didn't matter if I was holding the baby). Now I don't worry so much since the demon seems to have left and sorry but for a long time she did act like she was possessed and just so full of anger, hatred and violence. With meds thats no longer the case. Well most days


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## zinemama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I am not saying he doesn't have a mental illness, but one has not been diagnosed or even suggested yet, and I have to wonder if he is just acting out in extreme rage because of the horrors that he's faced as a young child that he has no way of controlling.

Maybe I am just making excuses for him, but it seems to make sense to me. . . . . .

To be honest - and I really and truly don't mean this unkindly - it sounds to me as if you _are_ making excuses for him, that you are resisting seeking medical help for him because of his past.

Yes, it may be that he is partially acting out from what's happened in the past. But you have also said that he has been violent from the very beginning. Does he have a mental illness? Who knows. Does it really matter? The important thing is that you _do something about it soon_, for his sake as much as for yours.

Take your son to a child psychiatrist. (I guess I was under the impression that you had already done this.) That seems like an excellent suggestion from your therapist.


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## Bisou

To clarify, I have taken my son to a therapist (child psychologist) for almost two years, and we have also seen his pediatrician, and most recently, a developmental/behavioral pediatrician who deals with this sort of thing. She was recommended as the first step in dealing with my son's problems. The developmental/behavioral pediatrician was the one who prescribed Risperdal, but I was not happy with the way she handled our appointment at all, which made me even less inclined to take her recommendation.

My son's pediatrician, whom I love, said giving my son Risperdal would be a "sledgehammer approach" to dealing with his behavior, and recommended that I get a second opinion, which is what I plan to do. All of this has happened in the last few weeks, so it's all very new.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
To be honest - and I really and truly don't mean this unkindly - it sounds to me as if you _are_ making excuses for him, that you are resisting seeking medical help for him because of his past.

Yes, it may be that he is partially acting out from what's happened in the past. But you have also said that he has been violent from the very beginning. Does he have a mental illness? Who knows. Does it really matter? The important thing is that you _do something about it soon_, for his sake as much as for yours.

Take your son to a child psychiatrist. (I guess I was under the impression that you had already done this.) That seems like an excellent suggestion from your therapist.


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## thebee321

I saw an interesting show Wednesday night on ABC, Primetime I think it was called. It was about parenting the defiant child.

Link here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/pare...ory?id=8549642

I thought a lot of it made good sense. It also addressed trying to break the cycle of abuse for parents who grew up in abusive homes.

Maybe it won't be helpful, I don't know, I just thought of it when I read your post.


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## Bisou

Hey, thanks for the suggestion thebee. You never know what will be helpful and what won't, so I will definitely check it out! Thanks! In my opinion, the more suggestions the better.


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## stik

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I would agree with you to a certain extent, except that he has not been diagnosed with a mental illness at this point. They haven't even suggested it or said, "Well, he's too young to be diagnosed at this point, but he probably has X." They just say he has "emotional disregulation." I guess if they were completely convinced that he had a mental illness, I might be more inclined to go in this direction.

My son has just been through SO much, and I think, honestly, he is angry and scared and is acting out because of that. Both his dad (who is not in the picture at all) and I have very strong personalities, and my son is very strong willed and also extremely bright.

I am not saying he doesn't have a mental illness, but one has not been diagnosed or even suggested yet, and I have to wonder if he is just acting out in extreme rage because of the horrors that he's faced as a young child that he has no way of controlling.


Bisou, generally, I think that when hcps recommend psychotropic medication for a child, they are suggesting a diagnosis of mental illness. But if you're not certain, you should ask them directly if they think your son is showing signs of mental illness or not.

Your ds may be acting out in extreme rage because of the trauma he has been through. That doesn't mean he's not struggling and wouldn't benefit from medication. Your son may not be able to benefit from therapy until the neuro-chemical roots of his problems are addressed.

If Risperdal is really frightening to you, please bring that up with your son's doctors. There may be other options that would work for your son.

I wish you and your ds all the best, mama.


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## stik

sorry - double post.


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## Maiasaura

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
That is interesting what you said about your son being hyper in utero, because my son was EXACTLY the same way! He kicked and squirmed and pushed constantly. It was just crazy. I used to tell people it was like having a wild horse trying to kick down a stall in there.

I am also with you on parents/grandparents butting in. I know that my grandparents (mom's parents) NEVER did that with us when we were kids. They just held their tongues. I think because my parents are helping me financially (paying for my son's childcare) and with babysitting, they feel like I am a dependent too, and they treat me like a child, which pisses me off to no end!!!! I am 35, have a Masters degree, teach college, and have many other accomplishments under my belt. It's not like I am a loser, but my parents have sort of always treated me that way. Even when I was in high school and an A student, debate team captain, star of most of the musicals, choir president, and working a part-time job (from the age of 14), they still thought I was a drug addict (not even close!) and irresponsible. Man, they should've traded me for one of my classmates to have a clear picture of just how good they had it!!!!









about the wild horses-- yes, I think we are peas in a pod, mama! My son kicked the carp out of me when he was in utero. Thankfully I found it comforting and not disrupting.

As for your parents-- how frustrating.

Maybe it's time to find a way to gently stand up to them and say something along the lines of "I _really, really_ appreciate your help, both financially and physically. It would be beyond hard for me to get along without it. However, I am setting the boundaries there, and will parent my child how I see fit, without interference. You had your chance with me, and now it's my turn. Because I try to raise my child differently than you raised me, it's not a judgement call. I think you did a wonderful job. But now I am the parent, and I will make all the decisions regarding discipline, medical issues, and what-have-you.".....yadda, yadda, yadda.
The thing is-- you have to be FULLY prepared for whatever outcome there may be. You might be willing to put up with their current behavior as a trade-off for childcare and finances. Or, you might decide that you can't put up with it anymore at all, and let the chips fall where they may-- struggle as you might, should they withdraw. OR-- the best might happen: they'd still help you out, and respect your need to Be The Mom.
Good luck, whatever you decide!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
When I was finally able to get him dressed and out of the house, I had completely shut down. I wouldn't even talk to him or look at him anymore. He was saying, "I love you mommy. You love me, right?" but I wouldn't answer him. In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell is wrong with you? (You being ME, not my son.) Are you a f*king heartless monster or what? He's only four! He's a baby! Tell him you love him you awful bitch!" but I just couldn't even bring myself to engage with him.







His six hours of tantrums finally ended with me sobbing and lying on my bed and just completely broken. From there I totally shut down.

I definitely don't want to be that kind of mom. I don't want to be emotionally unavailable. I don't want to be cruel.

You don't have to be. It's not just black or white options. You can say to him, in as calm a voice as you can muster, something like "I am WAY too angry and upset right now to talk to you. Yes, I love you, but my feelings are too strong right now to talk. I will talk to you when I'm feeling more calm." And if you're home, not in the car, you can go to your room and say "I need to have a time-out so that I can calm down. I'll be out in a few minutes when I can get ahold of my anger." That way, you don't break communication, and you're also modeling a more positive way to react when a person is that angry. Easier said than done, I know!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I felt like I had been handed a wonderful, miraculous gift, and while I knew single parenthood would be extremely hard, I didn't think it would be THIS hard! Not even close. I expected maybe 80-90% joy and 10-20% hardship. Instead most of the times it seems like I got the reverse: 80-90% hardship and 10-20% joy.

I have been single now for five years (from the pregnancy until now), and it's been so hard. I haven't even tried to date. I have no social life. I have no time to exercise because I have way too much work to do. I have lost pretty much all of my friends because I just don't have time to do anything with my work and parenting responsibilities. It's just grueling. I keep thinking that something has to change, but there's just not much wiggle room with anything. If I want to add something to my life (like yoga before bed), the only way to accomplish that is by cutting out more sleep. I am sure I am not the only single mom in this situation, but adding my son's behavior to this makes the strain of single parenthood nearly impossible.

YES, that. All of it. I can so relate! I got pregnant at 40, when by that time I thought it was a done deal, I wasn't having children. You bet I was going to roll with it! And yes on the single parenthood, and yes on the grueling responsibility, and YES on no life. And add in the issues and behavior-- egads. Yes.








I'm in nursing school, now-- with NO support whatever. I had to get a roommate and offer free rent so that I have someone to drive my kid to school on the days when I'm busy with class








No family, no nobody! I feel ya, mama.


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## ktmama

I wanted to refer you to the Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health:

http://www.ffcmh.org/

From what I remember, OR has several pretty active chapters. You can get support, information and advocacy services for your son.

Hugs, mama.


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## mamarhu

I don't have time right now to read all the pages, and compose a meaningful reply. PM me if you want some local resources - I am in your town and involved in the "system" from many angles. Special needs kids, foster kids, and connections with the mental health world.

I promise to come back, but just wanted to send a hug for now.

All the best to you and your boy.


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## Bisou

Maiasaura:

Thanks so much for the supportive reply to my posts. It sounds like you definitely know what I am talking about!

Thankfully, I have managed to reign in my temper over the past week. I usually have had control of my temper, but then in the last week or two, I just finally had HAD it.

I am noticing that when I am calmer, he is definitely doing better behavior-wise. I am giving it one more last ditch effort before I try medication. It may only last a few weeks, a few months, or even a year, but I am giving him a little more time to settle. I've seen some great things from him in just the past few days---positive behaviors I've never seen from him before. I've been really trying to communicate more, be calmer, and just model the kind of behavior I want him to have. Again, this is something I always tried to do in the past (and was gnerally successful with, not all the time, but most of the time), but it was just recently that I was at my wit's end.

We've been under a lot of stress lately, especially since we went through the attempted break-in and the emotional fall out for me of dealing with the idea that someone, a complete stranger, intended to hurt, rape, and even torture me. Having to leave our home and having completely lost my sense of safety on that May night has changed me into a different person, though I hope the change is only temporary, because it's not a good one. I am now fearful and distrusting and afraid of all different kinds of people. Not a good thing.

Anyway, rambling again. Thanks for sharing and reminding me that I am not the only single mama in this situation!


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## Bokonon

Bisou, I don't have any words of wisdom, but I have been following this thread and think you are a wonderful mother. Hugs to you and I hope the positive behaviors continue!


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 
Bisou, I don't have any words of wisdom, but I have been following this thread and think you are a wonderful mother. Hugs to you and I hope the positive behaviors continue!

Bokonon:

Thanks so much for your post! You almost brought tears to my eyes with your kind words. I am really hard on myself as a mom most of the time (aren't a lot of us when we shouldn't be?), so I appreciate it.

When I knew I was pregnant with my son, I knew being a single mom would be hard, but I never knew it would be THIS hard. I am learning patience times one million. Someday when I have another romantic relationship, I think I will be a much more patient, understanding, appreciative person. I haven't had anyone do anything for me in years (more than five years, to be exact). I guess if there's anything to be happy about in this, maybe it's that.

My son has been showing some improvement, and I have been lavishing him with praise when I see good, kind, patient behavior on his part.

Yesterday when we were at the park, my son accidentally kicked another child in the face because my son was climbing on top of a tube that the other child was climbing through (if that makes sense). The other little boy said, "You hurt me!" and my son said, "Well, you were in my way!" and started to get angry back at him. I gently pulled him aside and whispered in his ear, "You should apologize that you hurt him even if it was an accident." He said, "But it was an accident! And he was in my way!" I said, "I know it was an accident, but it doesn't matter. You still hurt him. You should say sorry." In the past, he would ALWAYS blame the other child or person that he hurt and even be angry at them, but this time, he put the sweetest smile on his face, turned to the little boy, and said, "I am sorry I hurt you! I didn't mean to. It was an accident. I didn't see you coming out! I am sorry." I just about FELL OVER! Then, I couldn't believe what happened next. He was climbing on the tube again, and the other child was climbing through (same scenario, once again), and I said, "Be careful! He is climbing through again!" and my son said to the other little boy, "I will wait for you to climb through and then I will get down." He was kind, considerate, and working together with this other boy. This is something I've never seen when he's in a conflict situation. They then played happily together for some time! I was so proud of him. This was big progress for him, and I made a big deal out of it, telling him what a kind boy he was and how proud I was of him.

I need to still correct the negative behavior but also really reward the good behavior, I know. It's a hard balance!

There are tough times. It's hard to know what to do when he's throwing a huge tantrum and needs a time out, but I need to be at work in 20 minutes and have to drop him off at preschool on the way. I know not dealing with his negative behavior is not good, but neither is losing my job!

*On a side note, to all readers, I thought people in this forum were generally against time outs? Or do people's feelings towards time outs vary??? I used to use a more gentle/AP approach, but that was really not working for my son. Sometimes I do sit with him in time out, however, if it seems to calm him. Sometimes I feel confused about whether this is the right approach and whether this is rewarding his negative behavior. Parenting is so freaking complicated!!!!!! I seriously think we should have to have parenting classes and licenses. Geez, you have to have a license to serve food or a glass of wine, but anyone can just have a kid!*


----------



## Maiasaura

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Maiasaura:

Thanks so much for the supportive reply to my posts. It sounds like you definitely know what I am talking about!

Aww, thanks








Well, that's because I do, to a degree. My son still has trouble apologizing. He just does not see that he is ever in the wrong, and gets very indignant. I've told him that the reason he has to say sorry, even if it was an accident, is to sooth the other person's feelings. And that sorry is usually two parts: words and action (this, because he often just goes "sorry" in a flippant or sarcastic manner, so as to just get it out of the way).
Your son did awesome at the playground!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
When I knew I was pregnant with my son, I knew being a single mom would be hard, but I never knew it would be THIS hard. I am learning patience times one million. Someday when I have another romantic relationship, I think I will be a much more patient, understanding, appreciative person. I haven't had anyone do anything for me in years (more than five years, to be exact). I guess if there's anything to be happy about in this, maybe it's that.

I need to still correct the negative behavior but also really reward the good behavior, I know. It's a hard balance!

There are tough times. It's hard to know what to do when he's throwing a huge tantrum and needs a time out, but I need to be at work in 20 minutes and have to drop him off at preschool on the way. I know not dealing with his negative behavior is not good, but neither is losing my job!

On a side note, to all readers, I thought people in this forum were generally against time outs? Or do people's feelings towards time outs vary??? I used to use a more gentle/AP approach, but that was really not working for my son. Sometimes I do sit with him in time out, however, if it seems to calm him. Sometimes I feel confused about whether this is the right approach and whether this is rewarding his negative behavior. Parenting is so freaking complicated!!!!!! I seriously think we should have to have parenting classes and licenses. Geez, you have to have a license to serve food or a glass of wine, but anyone can just have a kid!

It is really hard! I didn't know, either...OTOH, having my son's father and his daughter around was like having THREE kids, and I was inexperienced enough, so it's actually a relief having only the one










Have you ever looked into Love and Logic? Some people would definitely consider it coercive, but I'm in no way against coersion (because what some consider coercing, I call guiding-- children are immature beings, after all) so it might be a good fit for you. I have found that _when I do it right_, it really has a great effect. That combined with 1-2-3 Magic is what has had the best results for my son's behavior issues. Sometimes you can find the classes for free, given by social services or other agencies. They have a website. Their materials are expensive, but you can sometimes find the books at the library, or on www.half.com or other book sites. I have the CDs and they're wonderful to listen to in the car!

Love and Logic says you can delay consequences. Four is not too young to delay consequences, I think-- it looks something like this: "Honey, I have to go to work now. We'll talk about <insert issue here> when I get home. I don't know what I'm going to do about it, but I will think about it and let you know later". Apparently this is really effective with tweens and teens because they sit around sweating while they wonder what the consequence will be







You can also, later, ask _him_ what he thinks his consequence should be. Often kids are harder on themselves than you are!

I am not really a GD sort, though I've tried to be, and I vary my own self. I don't have a problem with time-out. I think that the GD peeps would say that if you sit with him and you both get a time out from the situation, it's probably gentle. I often take my own time away when I need to calm down, and I say it out loud "I need a time out; I'm going to my room. I will be with you in a minute when my anger calms down". That shows that I am modeling what I do when angry.

Yes, it's so hard!! I sure wish kids came with instructions. That are blanket for them all


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## zinemama

It really doesn't matter what a bunch of people on the internet are for or against. If time outs - a gentle method of giving a kid a chance to regroup - work for your son, put them in your toolbox. If they escalate his behavior, then clearly you wouldn't want to use them. You are in an extreme situation. Do whatever makes it better for you both.


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## Dandelionkid

You have had so much to deal with and you have been, and are being, such a such a strong mother. You only broke down after 6 hrs? I would have been done after one.

I am not a medical expert but I also don't understand how it could be a mental illness if he is fine at school, just not with you, his safe place to fall. He really seems to be using his tantrums to decompress from keeping it all in at school. I didn't see where you responded to the feingold diet- would that be a possibility? Have you looked at Aspergers? Finally, this is an awful thought but is there any chance he is still being abused by someone outside your care?

So many







your way, you are a beautiful, strong mother.


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## Bisou

Thanks for the great suggestions, Maiasaura!

I have looked at 1, 2, 3 Magic because my son's therapist recommended it, but I didn't really try it in full. I've also heard of Love and Logic and should check it out. He definitely seems to need more strict discipline than other kids. I see my other single mama friends with their kids, and all they have to do is say, "We don't do x. Go to time out" and the child bursts into tears and immediately goes into time out and sits there and stays!

It's been hard because some of my single mama friends have been a little critical, saying that I don't discipline him harshly enough, but usually I am just trying to avoid a public blow up! I finally decided that if he wasn't behaving properly in public, I'd give him one warning (except for serious things, like hitting) and if he didn't change his behavior, we would immediately leave.

I guess having parents like I did who never were concerned with my feelings at ALL has made me a little too lenient. This child needs a firm hand.

I agree that it's SOOOO important to model good behavior and how to deal with emotions in a correct way. My parents screamed, yelled, and spanked (which was really more like a serious beating, not a little "swat"), so I sometimes seem to vary between overly gentle and permissive, and really angry and screaming. I've been getting MUCH better at finding the correct emotional balance during discipline.

I am not giving up yet. I've also seen my son using his words more on the playground, when before he'd immediately hit or push or grab. The other day this little kid (maybe 2 1/2) wanted my son to be a "bad guy" and chase him, but was calling my son a "bad liar" (just because he wasn't communicating well). My son got totally pissed and was yelling, but he was saying "You are hurting my feelings! I don't like that!" It was a GREAT improvement.









Thanks again for all of your support and kindness. It has REALLY helped me pull up my bootstraps and gather together my last scraps of patience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maiasaura* 
Aww, thanks








Well, that's because I do, to a degree. My son still has trouble apologizing. He just does not see that he is ever in the wrong, and gets very indignant. I've told him that the reason he has to say sorry, even if it was an accident, is to sooth the other person's feelings. And that sorry is usually two parts: words and action (this, because he often just goes "sorry" in a flippant or sarcastic manner, so as to just get it out of the way).
Your son did awesome at the playground!









It is really hard! I didn't know, either...OTOH, having my son's father and his daughter around was like having THREE kids, and I was inexperienced enough, so it's actually a relief having only the one









Have you ever looked into Love and Logic? Some people would definitely consider it coercive, but I'm in no way against coersion (because what some consider coercing, I call guiding-- children are immature beings, after all) so it might be a good fit for you. I have found that _when I do it right_, it really has a great effect. That combined with 1-2-3 Magic is what has had the best results for my son's behavior issues. Sometimes you can find the classes for free, given by social services or other agencies. They have a website. Their materials are expensive, but you can sometimes find the books at the library, or on www.half.com or other book sites. I have the CDs and they're wonderful to listen to in the car!

Love and Logic says you can delay consequences. Four is not too young to delay consequences, I think-- it looks something like this: "Honey, I have to go to work now. We'll talk about <insert issue here> when I get home. I don't know what I'm going to do about it, but I will think about it and let you know later". Apparently this is really effective with tweens and teens because they sit around sweating while they wonder what the consequence will be







You can also, later, ask _him_ what he thinks his consequence should be. Often kids are harder on themselves than you are!

I am not really a GD sort, though I've tried to be, and I vary my own self. I don't have a problem with time-out. I think that the GD peeps would say that if you sit with him and you both get a time out from the situation, it's probably gentle. I often take my own time away when I need to calm down, and I say it out loud "I need a time out; I'm going to my room. I will be with you in a minute when my anger calms down". That shows that I am modeling what I do when angry.

Yes, it's so hard!! I sure wish kids came with instructions. That are blanket for them all


----------



## Bisou

I haven't tried the Feingold diet or any diet modification, though we are vegetarian/organic, and he doesn't eat any artificial colors or preservatives. If I can't help him get it together more, I will have to try that, or even consider a naturopath or something.

I agree with you that mental illness doesn't seem like a correct diagnosis when he holds it together with everyone except me, but other moms with mentally ill kids and the doctor we saw said that this is possible because they know what's socially appropriate and they just hold it in as much as they can until they feel safe (at home with mom).

That said, I have asked his psychologist, pediatrician, and behavioralist (all three!) if they thought he had a mental illness, and all three declined to say he might or suggest anything along those lines. I know he's too young to be diagnosed, but they haven't even suggested he might get diagnosed when he gets older.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
You have had so much to deal with and you have been, and are being, such a such a strong mother. You only broke down after 6 hrs? I would have been done after one.

I am not a medical expert but I also don't understand how it could be a mental illness if he is fine at school, just not with you, his safe place to fall. He really seems to be using his tantrums to decompress from keeping it all in at school. I didn't see where you responded to the feingold diet- would that be a possibility? Have you looked at Aspergers? Finally, this is an awful thought but is there any chance he is still being abused by someone outside your care?

So many







your way, you are a beautiful, strong mother.


----------



## sewchris2642

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 

I agree with you that mental illness doesn't seem like a correct diagnosis when he holds it together with everyone except me, but other moms with mentally ill kids and the doctor we saw said that this is possible because they know what's socially appropriate and they just hold it in as much as they can until they feel safe (at home with mom).

That said, I have asked his psychologist, pediatrician, and behavioralist (all three!) if they thought he had a mental illness, and all three declined to say he might or suggest anything along those lines. I know he's too young to be diagnosed, but they haven't even suggested he might get diagnosed when he gets older.

To some degree, your story is like reliving Erica's childhood all over again. Out in public, she was usually good. But at home, she could become a demon at a moment's notice. And we never knew when that would happen. I learned to let her de-stress alone in her room (time outs) when she would start. It was what she wanted and needed but wouldn't do it on her own until she was much older. There was never a time limit given on her time outs; she could come back whenever she was in control again. At first, she would come out, start up again, and be sent back (and repeat). If she stayed in her room for more than 5 minutes, she would usually fall asleep, take a 2-30 minute nap, and wake up in control of herself again. And nothing was ever her fault, even if it was an accident. It wasn't until she was in her twenties that she was diagnosed with bi polar, social anxiety, and OCD. She is on Prozac, is in a stable relationship, and has a 10 mo dd (my 3rd grandchild). If it had been possible to get a diagnosis and have her on meds when she was a child, I would have gone the meds route. The difference in her is amazing.


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## mamarhu

A book, or a "method", is not going to be the whole answer. But if you are interested, I highly recommend The Explosive Child. I value their point of view more than the specific interventions. The basic idea is that all kids do well if they can. No one wakes up in the morning planning to have a meltdown!! Problems typically come from lagging skills - social, emotional, communication skills. Just as it would not help a kid with dyslexia to punish them for not being able to read, our kids need to learn the lagging skills.

It has really helped my to reframe the behavioral problem in the context of lagging skills, rather than compliance versus disobedience, my way versus your way, or manipulative behavior.

I am not getting a quiet moment to think here, so this is coming out confused. Hope you can find the book - they didn't have kids interrupting when they wrote it - I can tell!


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## Thisbirdwillfly

As an adult with a mental illness, I can tell you that unless I am in the worst part of it, I can hold it together until I get home. That's actually somewhat common among other adults who deal with MI that I know.

I am not so sure that a dx of "mental illness" is that important. What has been known as mental illness is crossing over with neurobiology more and more. I tend to look at it as "what works" rather than "what label."

I completely understand the concern over your child's brain but I do want to point out that being left untreated can also damage a person. It's true that was it natural is almost always best but it's also true that our bodies, including our brains, can damage themselves.

What I'm trying to say is that what works for most people or what most people in a particular movement believe does not matter to me anymore. All I know is what works for me, although I do factor in data in making my decisions.

I wish you and your son the very best.


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## S.Lee

Hugs!! and more hugs. Just an idea, I am sure your son can sense all of your anxiety over the break-in trauma. Maybe now that you are taking care of yourself and starting to heal, he is reacting to that to some degree, just because it's new and different to him. Even though it's better, it's different. I think you said something about him liking a cat. Maybe you could look into some type of therapy with animals. I have seen some amazing progress and relationships develope between kids and therapy horses and dogs. Do you model compassion for YOURSELF to your son? We moms are so busy trying to hold everything together, we don't feel justified in saying to our child "I'm tired I need a break" until we are way past reason. Sorry if these seem like simplistic ideas. Sometimes the little things really help ground you when you are drowning in the realities. Someone mentioned martial arts-that sounds like something both of you could benefit from. No advice on the medication aspect, that has been covered very well.
As far as the grandparents, I think the book, Rights of Passage Parenting does a great job explaining the importance of grandparents roles. Maybe you could use some of the ideas in there to explain to your parents the relationship your son needs to have with them. They need to concentrate on being grandparents!
Hang in there!!


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## Maiasaura

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I see my other single mama friends with their kids, and all they have to do is say, "We don't do x. Go to time out" and the child bursts into tears and immediately goes into time out and sits there and stays!

Doesn't that make you just seethe?









I called those kids "velcro children" because, when my kid was 3-4yo, at the playground, all the other moms in the playgroup would be hovering around the sandbox, chatting, while their kids happily played next to their moms. Those kids would never have strayed more than like 5 feet away from their mom (hence "velcro").
I, OTOH, would be following my child close behind him, because he'd be WAY up high on the 5-12yo play equipment, and if I didn't tail him closely, he'd just...walk right off the fire pole opening. Not try to slide down the pole...just walk off. Six feet up off the ground. Or, he'd run full tilt into the street, on purpose, _way_ faster than I could ever catch him.
I stopped going to playgroups where the playground wasn't fenced in, because it was just too stressful for me. It was safer at home, where my whole house and yard were childproofed!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
That said, I have asked his psychologist, pediatrician, and behavioralist (all three!) if they thought he had a mental illness, and all three declined to say he might or suggest anything along those lines. I know he's too young to be diagnosed, but they haven't even suggested he might get diagnosed when he gets older.

That is kind of strange, to me. My kid has been seeing a therapist since he was 3, and while 3 is way young to diagnose ADHD, she _knew_, from experience in the field, and could tell me hands down that that's probably what he had. I knew it when he was a baby, though, anyway


----------



## Bisou

One thing that all the doctors have told me is that negative behavior creates neural pathways in his brain, essentially damaging his brain (as you are saying) by creating these deep patterns that will become an entrenched part of his way of being. I don't want this to happen, obviously. But as someone who's dealt with severe depression off and on throughout my life, I've also experienced some extreme side effects with anti-depressants, which is something that I consider much less extreme than an anti-psychotic (though maybe that is an incorrect belief on my part).

I am still figuring out what to do. I've seen some good improvements in his behavior over the last week or so, but his behavior has also tended to cycle, mainly in response to extreme stress (abuse at daycare, break-in attempt at our home, etc). I am hoping that we will get a break for a while so I can see what his behavior is like under more normal circumstances.

On that note, I was just diagnosed with "probable N1H1 flu" (aka "swine flu") yesterday!!!! I just can't seem to catch a break lately. ARGH. I was massively ill yesterday and the day before, but today the fever finally broke and I am starting to feel slightly more human. Not fun!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
As an adult with a mental illness, I can tell you that unless I am in the worst part of it, I can hold it together until I get home. That's actually somewhat common among other adults who deal with MI that I know.

I am not so sure that a dx of "mental illness" is that important. What has been known as mental illness is crossing over with neurobiology more and more. I tend to look at it as "what works" rather than "what label."

I completely understand the concern over your child's brain but I do want to point out that being left untreated can also damage a person. It's true that was it natural is almost always best but it's also true that our bodies, including our brains, can damage themselves.

What I'm trying to say is that what works for most people or what most people in a particular movement believe does not matter to me anymore. All I know is what works for me, although I do factor in data in making my decisions.

I wish you and your son the very best.


----------



## Bisou

Thanks for the book recommendation! I think you or someone else already recommended it for me, as I have it on a list that I've compiled of suggestions from you guys. I really appreciate it!

I don't think that there will be any one-size-fits-all method for any child. I plan to pull ideas from here and there and find what works, whether it's a parenting approach, therapy, medication, or a combination of those things.

Believe it or not, I was diagnosed with "probable N1H1 flu" this weekend (aka "swine flu") so it's given me some forced alone time! Even though I've been extremely ill, it has been nice to have some rest. The doctor said my son shouldn't be around me until my fever has been gone for 24 hours, so he had to stay with my parents. Thankfully, it looks like my son somehow avoided catching this. I don't know how; I kiss him a massive amount every day! I am glad though as this can be very dangerous for young kids.

Unfortunately, I had set aside this weekend to do some much needed cleaning and de-cluttering to reduce my stress levels. I guess that can wait!

Thanks again for the advice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamarhu* 
A book, or a "method", is not going to be the whole answer. But if you are interested, I highly recommend The Explosive Child. I value their point of view more than the specific interventions. The basic idea is that all kids do well if they can. No one wakes up in the morning planning to have a meltdown!! Problems typically come from lagging skills - social, emotional, communication skills. Just as it would not help a kid with dyslexia to punish them for not being able to read, our kids need to learn the lagging skills.

It has really helped my to reframe the behavioral problem in the context of lagging skills, rather than compliance versus disobedience, my way versus your way, or manipulative behavior.

I am not getting a quiet moment to think here, so this is coming out confused. Hope you can find the book - they didn't have kids interrupting when they wrote it - I can tell!


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## Freud

I'm so sorry you and your son are going through this.









I have little advice, other than maybe attempt to find a new therapist for your son. He has had many traumas that need to be dealt with fully. Medication is not going to fix that. I would never give a child that young Risperdal. It is not approved for use in children. Not only that, but 4 years old is much too young to begin psychotropic medications, which alter brain chemistry (during one of the most important periods of brain development).


----------



## Bisou

One thing I like about my son's therapist is that she's not pushy, and if I tell her "This approach that you suggested isn't working," she will come up with something else for us to try. She's not at all rigid. When I told her I didn't want to try medication yet, she was totally ok with that. I am fortunate that

I don't have anyone really pushing me to try medication with him, except for the behavioralist that we saw (NOT my son's therapist), whom I REALLY didn't like! She asked me all these questions that I thought were really inappropriate for my son to hear, like "Were you abused as a child?" (and wanted details about what happened to me) "What's the worst thing your son has ever done?" etc etc etc. She then said things like, "Well, he is cute now, so people like him, but pretty soon he will be bigger and he won't be cute, and then this is not going to be good, and people won't like him." She also asked him, "Who's your best friend?" and he didn't really say anything, so then she later said that he didn't have any friends, which really upset him. It's not his fault! We just had to move from our neighborhood (due to an attempted break-in and rape/attack by one of my neighbors!) and remove him from his preschool due to mistreatment by the director there. He hasn't had a chance to stay anywhere long enough to keep friends. Besides, he's just four! I don't think lots of four year olds have tons of close friends.

I kept thinking "I should stop this appointment! This is NOT ok!" but I had this whole debate going on in my head and was just sort of frozen.

*Here's the debate I was having in my head between me and myself:
*
"I can't believe she is asking me this in front of him! This is not ok!"

"Well, she's the doctor. She does this all the time. She must know what she's doing."

"But he's hearing all this stuff, hearing you talk bad about his grandparents and him and how you feel about his bad behavior. This is damaging!"

"Maybe he's not really paying attention." (He was playing at our feet, only 3-4 feet away.)

"Of course he's paying attention! He is ALWAYS paying attention!"

"Well, I've waited months for this appointment. I need help for him!"

"This is not going to help him! This is going to damage him! How can she think it's ok for him to hear this? You told her on the phone that you didn't want to talk about these things in front of him. You discussed all of this on the phone and filled out pages of history on him describing all these things. Why is she asking this now?"

And on and on and on. I wish I had just said, "This is not ok with me for my son to hear all of this. We will have to talk about this at another time." I thought she was just going to observe him and ask him questions, which is how the appointment process was described to me.

She spent about 10-15 minutes with my son, then wanted him to sit there for over 45-50 minutes with nothing to do while she asked me questions. He was really good and behaved well until the last 10 minutes or so. Keep in mind that he is just barely four years old. It was just insane.

When he started getting antsy, she was really harsh with him. I thought she was just awful. He had started climbing up on my chair behind me and sort of climbing on my back and messing up my hair, just being silly, but a little wild, and I was trying to get him down. She said in a really harsh tone, "If you don't STOP that RIGHT NOW, your mom is going to put you in a TIME OUT!" He was embarrassed, I think, and burst into tears. She then called him "manipulative" (she said, "See! Look at how manipulative he is!") and said his crying was a "ploy." I think he was just honestly embarrassed and upset that she yelled at him (even if he did need to calm down, but it wasn't that bad, just normal four-year-old antsyness!)

After we left the appointment, my son sobbed for seriously 45 minutes. I had to carry him to the car because he was so distraught. He kept saying, "I don't have any friends! She hurt my feelings!" He just was sobbing and sobbing.

I just couldn't believe that she did what she did. I know she is a mother because she had pictures of her two kids on her desk. Would she speak so negatively about her children with them sitting there? I'd hate to have her for a mother.

I know I am going on another tangent here, but this is just another piece of this whole frustrating experience. I think if I had a better experience with her and respected her professional opinion. I thought she was really TERRIBLE! So it's hard to say, "Yes, this really awful, mean, unprofessional doctor prescribed this and I am going to give it to my son!"

I definitely need to get another opinion. I just wish I had had the guts to stand up for my son in that situation, but I was so caught off guard and caught up in my own internal debate that I just couldn't think straight.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Freud* 
I'm so sorry you and your son are going through this.









I have little advice, other than maybe attempt to find a new therapist for your son. He has had many traumas that need to be dealt with fully. Medication is not going to fix that. I would never give a child that young Risperdal. It is not approved for use in children. Not only that, but 4 years old is much too young to begin psychotropic medications, which alter brain chemistry (during one of the most important periods of brain development).


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## lolar2

It does sound as though a child psychiatrist would be a better bet. The behavior specialist just sounds strange.

Also if the child psych recommends medication, ask him or her to "talk you through the risks, benefits and alternatives." IME most reasonable doctors LOVE that phrasing and will give clear answers to it. If he or she doesn't seem to like the question, you may want to try for a third opinion; but most doctors I've known, give good answers if you phrase it that way.

It may end up that your DS will have to take some medications with unpleasant side effects; the goal isn't zero side effects, because such a medication has never been invented, but you want side effects that are not worse than the condition the medication is for.

ETA: if it does turn out to be bipolar, adults have a lot more medical options for that than children do. So at least you'll know that you just have to hang on until he's old enough to expand his range of choices.


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## firelillylight

i didnt read all of the responses, but from your story i hightly recommend counseling for your son and you. i know you tried a psychologist, but what about a licensed professional counselor (lpc), especially someone trained in nondirective play therapy (it is amazing!) or possibly even sand tray therapy though he could be young for that.

just want you to know i'm thinking about you...it sounds like a really tough situation and you're so brave for continuing to lovingly care for your son.

btw, risperdal...it's mostly used off-label, meaning not what it was made for (psychosis)--especially in children. it has helped some kids, but if u go that route, start with a really low dose. might seem obvious, but sometimes drs do their own things.


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## Bisou

Hi Firelilly:

My son's psychologist does do nondirective play therapy with him. When we go into her office, that's all he does is play. However, I also have appointments with her to discuss parenting strategies without my son present.

I am also trying to get counseling for myself, but although my medical benefits allow me visits once per week, Kaiser (my medical plan provider) only allows me visits every 3-4 weeks, which is certainly not enough to be helpful. I have made many calls and requests to receive regular counseling, especially since I am having quite a bit of PTSD after my son and I went through the attempted break in while we were there and in complete terror for more than 30 minutes, which is how long it took police to arrive.

I think my son's therapist is good, but I definitely need better support.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firelillylight* 
i didnt read all of the responses, but from your story i hightly recommend counseling for your son and you. i know you tried a psychologist, but what about a licensed professional counselor (lpc), especially someone trained in nondirective play therapy (it is amazing!) or possibly even sand tray therapy though he could be young for that.

just want you to know i'm thinking about you...it sounds like a really tough situation and you're so brave for continuing to lovingly care for your son.

btw, risperdal...it's mostly used off-label, meaning not what it was made for (psychosis)--especially in children. it has helped some kids, but if u go that route, start with a really low dose. might seem obvious, but sometimes drs do their own things.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you and your little guy.







, hope you both have found some peace.


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## Bisou

Hi everyone:

Things are much better and have calmed down quite a bit, but we have had this pattern in the past. Whenever a stressful situation hits (and we've had MAJOR ones), his behavior goes off the charts. I think he is feeling more secure right now and is thus being more cooperative and less angry.

I did get the book several of you recommended by Glasser (Transforming the Difficult Child) and I am starting to work on some of the principles. I am starting to think that some of his behavior might have just been an extreme attempt to get my attention. As a single mom working two full time jobs, I am always SO exhausted. On the days when I don't work, I often spend several hours in the morning lying on the couch while he plays or snuggles with me, but I am definitely not as present as I could be. On work mornings, he again gets little attention because I am rushing around showering, getting his lunch and clothes ready, and doing all the things I need to do to get us out of the house. Mornings are when he is most likely to act out, so I've been trying to give him as much attention as possible, even just in little ways. I have FOUGHT to bring back my patience, which I had lost for several weeks. I am making a concerted effort to compliment him for every positive act that he does.

Yesterday we went to a children's play area that has a large indoor sand box, and he did such a great job playing and sharing with the other kids, even working collaboratively with them on projects and laughing and joking together! He even held in his (often explosive) temper when one child grabbed something out of his hand and took it. In the past, he would've gone to that child and grabbed it back or even hit the child. Instead, he used his words and talked to the child, me, or the child's parent in these instances to get some help with the situation. I was so proud of him! I've seen other similar instances lately where he has even been hurt by another child (hit, pushed down by another child without any cause) and again, in the past he would've gone and hit that child twice as hard, but instead he is using his words and coming to me for comfort.

Another book that I've had on my shelf and LOVE is "Playful Parenting." I've read it before when he was much younger, and I think it's more helpful for children my son's age (4) and older when they are more verbally communicative. He suggests making things fun or turning resistance around by making something a game. This doesn't mean you make it a game when your child punches you in the face; bad behavior still needs consequences. But if your child is not cooperating with picking up toys or getting dressed, he gives ideas like making it a race. Some parents do this almost instinctively. Racing works for my son almost every time! I say, "I am going to pick up the toys faster than you! I am going to beat you!" So I end up picking up a few toys, and he will do the rest. When he has recently gotten into his angry mode, we've been calling that "Mr Crabby Man." I will say, "Oh no! Mr Crabby Man is here! Not again!" He finds this funny. Of course if he took this as mocking or humiliation (something my parents did to me!), I would not do that. It only works because he thinks it's funny. I will say things like, "Ok, don't smile or laugh. You are not allowed, Mr Crabby Man! I want to see that grumpy face." Of course he immediately can't help but laugh. Eventually he will say, "Ok! Mr Crabby is gone!"

The only thing about this is that it takes SOOOOO much energy and creativity and sometimes I just want to say, "Get your damn shoes on NOW! I am not telling you again!" Of course I have tried that (without the "damn"), and it hasn't worked so well. We both end up angry and in conflict. So, I have to find the way to get more energy and have more patience, which I have been working on.

If anyone has tried Glasser's book, did you do the reward system he suggests? It seems VERY complicated for a younger child (though I think it'd work great for an older child). Though he's bright, I don't think my son could totally understand the point system or understand that he'd have to get (for example) 200 points in order to earn a trip to the zoo, or that he couldn't redeem his points for a trip to the zoo on, say, a school and work day. We were doing a sticker chart (something he always HATED in the past), but I haven't been as consistent with it as I should be. There are so many components to keeping our daily lives just moving along. I am mom, homemaker, teacher, laundress, cook, maid, bill payer, etc. Anything that needs doing, I have to do. I am sure other single moms (current or former) understand how hard this is!

The other thing I didn't agree with is that Glasser suggests removing every priviledge except for food, shelter, sleep, and water (basically). The child then has to earn all other priviledges. I understand why he suggests this, because in order for the child to be motivated, you need to include most things as earned priviledges and not rights. However, the one thing I didn't agree with at all was outside time and exercise. On his reward list, he included things like "30 minute bicycle ride." To me, exercise and outdoor time are ESSENTIAL for all kids, but especially for "challenging" children with lots of energy (and sometimes anger and aggression). If my son doesn't get several hours of outside time or active play time per day, he is not fun to be around. I think that this is essential for both a child's physical and mental health. What if a child never chose bike time as his reward time and instead only chose TV or video game time? I will keep exercise, bike time, playground time, and other active things as part of my son's regular expected program. To me, exercise is as essential for him as food, water, and sleep.

Anyway, that's our update. I am optimistic that this is a permanent change for the future, but I also know that it might not be. In the meantime, I will just work on becoming more and more patient and creative in avoiding meltdowns (without being a pushover!) and model the behavior that I want him to have. I am definitely proud of how we are doing. Thanks for the encouragement from everyone!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

That is so wonderful to see! I actually find myself thinking about you and your son alot. How stong you are to keep fighting for your son and his innocense. Keep pushin mama. You are an inspiration to us all!


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## ammasmahma

I really like this response. I too, have dealt with some agressiveness in my 3.5 yr-old. Sometimes, she is passive-agressive or totally ignores me and laughs at me if I try to address or talk to her about what is going on. I forget to set up structure though and that is very important. Even chaotic structure is structure and that in itself is gentle discipline.

I recently went through a tough time trying to talk with her about something that happened while at grandma's house with my two sisters and my neice who is 1 yr old. My daughter was playing with a push toy and my neice came over and sat on it to ride it. My daughter got upset and eventually started to push the toy viguourously with my neice on it so my sister took the toy away from both of them. Mind you, my sister did tell my daughter in a nice voice to be nice and gentle and careful. My sister said that my daughter ignored her, which is typical of her as I have seen her do this when someone addresses her specifically or corrects her, she even ignores me.

I guess my sisters saw my daughter destroying her dress as though she has pent up anger. One of my sisters took her in the room and asked her in a very nice uppety way why she was so upset and my sister said she calmed down immediately while also rolling all over the floor, (again, moving her body a lot). When they got home, I tried to talk to her about it, she said, "I can't talk", although she did validate that she was sad that the toy had been taken from her when she was originally playing with it first. I tried to explain to her that my neice is a baby and we need to be gentle with her but it took an hour of crying, hitting me, kicking me, yelling at me, until she finally broke down and relaxed into my arms and finally started to respond to me. I think, should I have pressed it? Should I have left her alone when she asked me to leave the room? Should I have ignored it? Would she remember it if I came to her at a later time to talk about it? I asked if we could talk about it later instead and of course she ignored me so instead, I pressed it and told her we needed to stay in the room until we are both calm and we can talk about what happened. I don't if this is right or not, it doesn't feel completely right but our situation isn't the best either so we have many stresses that complicate things.

She sometimes likes to play with it, like chase, if I get closer to her to try and get her to listen, she laughs and runs like we are playing a game and it's sooo difficult to get her to actually listen to me. She changes the subject, plays, and sometimes will finally respond by saying, "oh" or "ok". I'm not sure what to think at this point. Am I teaching her to just apease me by saying those things? I try to identify what feelings she is going through and she doesn't want anything to do with it.

In the past, when I have tried to use creative play, it seems to work much better. Like moving and playing helps her express better. She can't sit still and talk, no way! She has to be moving and doing something, which sometime makes me think she is ignoring me or the situation. She loves dance, paint, clay, drawing, music, hula hoops, digging in the dirt, etc.

If I were to set up art stations like you suggest, the hard part is keeping the house clean and do I make her clean up one station before she can move to the next? Most mothers who have grown children say the one mistake they made is not making the kids clean up after themselves whether they make them or are creative in doing it with them. The moms usually say that they just cleaned up after them and then when they got older, they were slobs.

A little history about me, we are attachment parenters for the most part but have been through a separation, a ton of moves, domestic violence from the father and then me reacting to that because I'm triggered since I had abuse in my childhood. Although both her father and I have similar parenting views and compassion for our daughter and want her to have a better life than we had growing up, we can't seem to correct things within ourselves to make that happen. I have realized that I am happiest when with her father and so is our daughter. The only thing, it's only a matter of time before he blows up. We are not together now but are working on co-parenting and are going to do couseling together with the focus being on ourselves individually and on parenting our daughter.

There is a lot of healing to do and if you are still triggered from your childhood, that will affect your parenting and your relationship with your youngen so healing yourself is a must.

Does anyone have any advice for my situation too? I'm afraid that if I don't do something now, I will end up ruining her life? I will visit that website recommended above and check out that book. Those sound like great starts.

Thank you for sharing your story with us and thank you to everyone who has already replied. It has been a tearing fearful, hopeful reading for me. I hope everything goes well for you in the future.

P.S. Have you heard of the Explosive Child? Google it. It may help you.


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## ammasmahma

I just posted a response but meant to say that I really like the response from "TheLightbearer". Very helpful for me!


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## Oh the Irony

Hey, so glad to hear that things are better.

I do a modified chart with my 5 year old. I have the list of behaviors which I modified to language that works better for us. The top section includes behaviors that will get an automatic short (and I do mean short!) time out like aggression. I do a flat 10 points for each category.

He really enjoys this process and it gives a common language for behaviors.

I started out charging points for stuff but didn't like it that well. We choose a specific thing now--like a fun activity that he doesn't get to do all the time--or something he wants (currently a stapler!) and he earns points for that activity or thing.

It is a heck of a lot of work to stay on top of everything that needs to happen.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
That is so wonderful to see! I actually find myself thinking about you and your son alot. How stong you are to keep fighting for your son and his innocense. Keep pushin mama. You are an inspiration to us all!









Thanks Barbie! It's odd to think that a stranger we've never met is thinking about us, worrying about us, and hoping for the best, but it's also immensely comforting! To think that someone we've never met cares about us shows that wonderful human connection we can have. Having had some less than pleasant experiences (understatement!!!) with humans lately (namely a stranger deciding it would be fun to break into my house, rape me, and cut me up with a knife, possibly also assaulting my baby as well), I definitely need to renew my faith in humanity, and this sort of thing does that for me, so THANKS.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Thanks Barbie! It's odd to think that a stranger we've never met is thinking about us, worrying about us, and hoping for the best, but it's also immensely comforting! To think that someone we've never met cares about us shows that wonderful human connection we can have. Having had some less than pleasant experiences (understatement!!!) with humans lately *(namely a stranger deciding it would be fun to break into my house, rape me, and cut me up with a knife, possibly also assaulting my baby as well)*, I definitely need to renew my faith in humanity, and this sort of thing does that for me, so THANKS.









Between that and your daycare experiences, espcially what your little guy went through when he was MY BABY's age, I would not have to wonder how your faith in humanity would be so shaky. PM me if you ever want to just talk with a friend.


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## Surfacing

subbing to come back later and read


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## BabyMae09

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
To me, exercise and outdoor time are ESSENTIAL for all kids, but especially for "challenging" children with lots of energy (and sometimes anger and aggression). If my son doesn't get several hours of outside time or active play time per day, he is not fun to be around.

THIS!!! Only have a second, but I had to say that my DS had some of the problems that you listed, and when we moved to the country and started homeschooling him, he got 100X better. Tons of outdoor/free time









PM me if you want details. Gotta go


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## Bisou

Hi Ammasmahma:

You said . . . .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ammasmahma* 
When they got home, I tried to talk to her about it, she said, "I can't talk", although she did validate that she was sad that the toy had been taken from her when she was originally playing with it first. I tried to explain to her that my neice is a baby and we need to be gentle with her but it took an hour of crying, hitting me, kicking me, yelling at me, until she finally broke down and relaxed into my arms and finally started to respond to me. I think, should I have pressed it? Should I have left her alone when she asked me to leave the room? Should I have ignored it? Would she remember it if I came to her at a later time to talk about it? I asked if we could talk about it later instead and of course she ignored me so instead, I pressed it and told her we needed to stay in the room until we are both calm and we can talk about what happened. I don't if this is right or not, it doesn't feel completely right but our situation isn't the best either so we have many stresses that complicate things.

I am sorry to hear that you, too, are having a tough time with your daughter. In reading the portion above, I noticed that you are questioning yourself, like I often do (and I assume many/most/all parents do from time to time)--"Was that the right way to handle this? Should I have done something else? Am I making this worse?"

One thing that I've tried with my son when he doesn't want to talk is using puppets. It's so weird because I know he knows the puppet is me talking, but he will talk to the puppet, but not me. I might say, in a silly voice using his zebra puppet, "Hi! You look really mad right now. What's wrong? Can I give you a hug?" and he will say, "My mom is being really rude and won't let me play. She says I have to go to bed, but I don't want to." And then my son and the zebra will have a little conversation. We also sometimes play where one puppet acts out the negative behavior (hitting, throwing something, etc) and the other puppet tells the misbehaving puppet that what he is doing is not ok. My son will often intervene and put the misbehaving puppet in time out. This seems to be very effective.

I don't mean to sound like the parenting expert here when I've been at my wits end until just lately. There have always been some things that work at SOME times, but not others. Lately, I've been pulling out ALL the patience that I can muster. I've also been using a lot from the book "Playful Parenting," which I love. It gives lots of ideas for defusing situations that are about to go from bad (crabby child) to worse (full blown tantruming child).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ammasmahma* 
She sometimes likes to play with it, like chase, if I get closer to her to try and get her to listen, she laughs and runs like we are playing a game and it's sooo difficult to get her to actually listen to me. She changes the subject, plays, and sometimes will finally respond by saying, "oh" or "ok". I'm not sure what to think at this point. Am I teaching her to just apease me by saying those things? I try to identify what feelings she is going through and she doesn't want anything to do with it.

I think it's very hard for young kids to express their feelings. I think sometimes they just don't know what they are feeling, but they just feel not quite right. They can't always put words to it. I used to expect my son to express what he was feeling, but his therapist said that probably wasn't entirely possible, and I also realized this myself. I think with misbehavior, it's not necessarily important WHY they are doing it, but you have to set a boundary that the child CAN'T do this. The boundary my son's therapist said to set is behavior that hurts (or has the potential to hurt) the child, others, or destroys property. She said all other behaviors, like saying bad words, should just be ignored.

My son recently did a "run away/chase game" when I was trying to put him in time out. His therapist said that I should not chase him. I should just stop, and when he stops, I gently take him back to time out. I am not sure if you're using time out with your daughter or not, and I definitely don't think time outs are some magic thing or that they should be used with all children or in all situations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ammasmahma* 
In the past, when I have tried to use creative play, it seems to work much better. Like moving and playing helps her express better. She can't sit still and talk, no way! She has to be moving and doing something, which sometime makes me think she is ignoring me or the situation. She loves dance, paint, clay, drawing, music, hula hoops, digging in the dirt, etc.

If I were to set up art stations like you suggest, the hard part is keeping the house clean and do I make her clean up one station before she can move to the next? Most mothers who have grown children say the one mistake they made is not making the kids clean up after themselves whether they make them or are creative in doing it with them. The moms usually say that they just cleaned up after them and then when they got older, they were slobs.

I think that having lots of positive "time in" with children is SO important, and I am realizing that this is probably a big part of what my son was missing out on. I am a single mom, I work two full time teaching jobs (I teach college-level English), and my son's dad is not involved, so I have very few breaks. I have very little support system. Because of this, I often didn't have the energy to give him the attention and play time that he needed. I've been trying to go to bed earlier (hard because I've been having insomnia due to the crime in May) and let things go (cleaning the house, etc) to play with him more. The more I follow the "Playful Parenting" approach, but also keep boundaries, the better we seem to both be doing.

This is not to say that we might have a massive relapse in another week or two or a month or two later, but for right now, I am optimistic and feel like medication is OFF THE TABLE. Hallelujah! (Of course this is no judgment of those parents who chose to use medication for their children; I am sure some children may really need medication. It's better for a child or parent to be medicated than for both people to feel like they can't stand each other, in my opinion. If I end up having to go that route, I will consider it.)

As for cleaning up, I think it's important that clean-up is always what you do when it's time for play to end. When it's time to go to bed, my son has to clean up all his toys and put everything away. I almost always make this a game by racing him, that I will pick up toys faster, or that I will be able to get ready for bed (wash my face, brush my teeth, etc) before he can clean up his toys. He seriously loves this! Anything that can make it a game is good. I don't think children should think of parents as personal servants, which is a trap I've fallen into myself. Now that my son is four, I am trying to always encourage him to do the things he can do for himself. Cleaning up is something I definitely enforce.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ammasmahma* 
A little history about me, we are attachment parenters for the most part but have been through a separation, a ton of moves, domestic violence from the father and then me reacting to that because I'm triggered since I had abuse in my childhood. Although both her father and I have similar parenting views and compassion for our daughter and want her to have a better life than we had growing up, we can't seem to correct things within ourselves to make that happen. I have realized that I am happiest when with her father and so is our daughter. The only thing, it's only a matter of time before he blows up. We are not together now but are working on co-parenting and are going to do couseling together with the focus being on ourselves individually and on parenting our daughter.

I felt like I had to ask: are you saying your daughter's dad is physically abusive to you, but that you are happiest when you are with him? I know that many victims of domestic violence feel this way, and I worked as a domestic violence counselor (volunteer) for four years, so I do understand the psychology of this, but it is so unhealthy for you and your daughter if I have, in fact, read this correctly. I have also been in abusive relationships, but never with my child, and I will never be in a relationship with someone who would mistreat me in any way now that I have a child. I wish I had had this same respect for myself prior to becoming a mother, but I think this is one gift my son's unexpected arrival has given me.

If your child witnesses violence towards you, do you think that will affect the way she views you and her level of respect towards you? Don't you think this will also affect her future relationships and how she allows herself to be treated as an adult? Do you think that viewing violence will also cause her to act out? I don't mean to sound like I am judging you, because I know it can be extremely hard to leave an abusive relationship, especially when it means being a single mother, but if this is what she's witnessing, I think the first step to improving her behavior is removing yourself and her from this situation. If she is able to see her dad and have him not act out violently against her, then she needs to see him without you present, in my opinion. If he could get treatment/counseling and no longer be violent, not even verbally (screaming, yelling, etc), then maybe it would be an ok situation. Of course I am not in your shoes, and this is just my opinion based on my own personal experiences and training, but if I read your post correctly, and you really are currently experiencing domestic violence in the home with your child, this needs to stop.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ammasmahma* 
There is a lot of healing to do and if you are still triggered from your childhood, that will affect your parenting and your relationship with your youngen so healing yourself is a must.

Does anyone have any advice for my situation too? I'm afraid that if I don't do something now, I will end up ruining her life? I will visit that website recommended above and check out that book. Those sound like great starts.

Thank you for sharing your story with us and thank you to everyone who has already replied. It has been a tearing fearful, hopeful reading for me. I hope everything goes well for you in the future.

P.S. Have you heard of the Explosive Child? Google it. It may help you.

I hope everything goes well for you and your daughter in the future, as well. I hope that if you are currently in a domestic violence situation (something you seemed to mention so nonchalantly, as if it was a minor part of your life) that you can find the strength to get out of that situation. There are lots of resources for women in your situation. Though your abuser may have many wonderful qualities (my son's biological father was just like that---wonderful and loving one minute, and completely crazy the next) domestic violence is so damaging that it really outweighs everything else. If I read your post right and this is still happening, I hope you will get some counseling and help for yourself and your daughter.


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## Bisou

Thanks Barbie. I just might take you up on that! Yes, we've had more than our share of crappy experiences with fellow human beings in the last two years. Seriously, when I think about it, I almost can't believe it. I am hoping that I will be coming up on a time period that is so WONDERFUL that I can't believe it! People always say, "You are so strong! You should be proud of yourself!" but I am tired of being strong and constantly fighting. I just want to have some smooth sailing for a while!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Between that and your daycare experiences, espcially what your little guy went through when he was MY BABY's age, I would not have to wonder how your faith in humanity would be so shaky. PM me if you ever want to just talk with a friend.


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## boysmom2

Bisou - I have read this whole thread and I just have to say you rock! Good for you for standing up for your baby! He is SO lucky to have you for his mother! Many, many hugs to you. You and your little guy have been in prayers. I hope things continue to go well for both of you - you both deserve lots of peace and happiness.


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## Kindermama

Would you consider homeopathy? Send me a PM, I'll help you as best I can.


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## hjdmom24

First of all hugs to you- I had tears in my eyes reading your origanal post because I can relate in a way. My son has had behavioral problems since about the age of 2. He has been diagnosed with many things including bipolar. I too did not want to try meds- but eventually did due to pressure from the school and daycare. He started to develop tics and I was somehow (I don't remember how) led to chiropractic. I had him see a chiro and his tics almost instantly resolved- I decided to homeschool and took him off the meds and then made the mistake of also stopping the chiro. Last year at the age of 9 his behavior was WAY out of control and I ended up resorting to meds again- which actually seemed to make things worse and the tics came back! The tics made me remember the chiro and again as soon as we started with that the tics went away- I again discontinued the meds and am happy to say that after a about a year of chiro and 8 months of half day long outpatient therapy that I finally have a managable child- he still freaks out a bit more then other kids his age but its mostly only verbal and that is a huge improvement. All that to say that if it hasn't already been mentioned you may want to try to find a good chiropractor if you are still uncomfortable with the meds.


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## suprgrl

"The behavioral pediatrician said that it just shows he has awareness of what's socially appropriate and that after holding it in all day, he blows his fuse when he's with me because he feels safe doing so with me.. "

I agree with this.

With my background in working with ADD, ODD, and otherwise defiant kids, I would advise against putting a child this young on meds. I agree that he has been severly traumatized and sounds to be a sensitive kid who has been greatly affected by these instances. No amount of meds will help him overcome the feelings that he needs to deal with in order to move past the hurt and anger he feels. I have seen countless kids who have lived their life on meds from a young age and underneath continue to be the same angry and hurt small child they were the first time they were put on meds.
I think the play therapy is a great idea! Have you read Playful Parenting?
The time outs seem to not be working. IMO he seems to be acting out with you because he does not have the verbal ability to articulate the extreme anger and hurt he feels. He may feel fear every day at school that he can't trust anyone there to not hurt him like he has been hurt before. You are his safe place. I really like the time in idea. Let him know you love and accept him... that it is okay to be angry and hurt, and that you will help him through it. Once he is calmed down then you can talk with him about better ways to handle it. Is there a certain word he could say when he is starting to feel out of control? It could be a silly or serious word that would let you know he needs a time in. He may also really benefit from being wrestled with in a playful way. Where he can feel powerful by pushing you over and seeing you fall dramatically. Maybe you could get him a punching bag he can take his aggression out on? Does he have plenty of time and space to release his physical energy? Places he can jump, hit things (balls, punching bag), etc. Positive releases of physical energy. His need to get this stuff out of him will not go away. You may be able to suppress it with meds, but it will not cure his feelings. Many kids have told me that their meds only keep them from expressing the anger they still feel inside.
It sounds like you have a very sensitive, feeling, active little boy who feels betrayed and needs to know that he is loved and accepted unconditionally. That does not mean that you are okay with his violence, but he needs to know that you will not remove your love (which he may be feeling during time outs - which then causes him to just act out more cause he does not have the words to express the deep fears he has). You are his safe place. He feels safe letting it all out with you. Love him, hug him, let him know you will get through his pain together with him.
You are an amazing mother. You are searching out the best possible options for your baby, and obviously love him more than anything.
Hugs to you and your sweet baby boy.


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## Bekka

I read your whole thread. I think you are amazing. I have a little guy who is a year older than yours. He has not had the trauma-inducing things you have talked about in his life, but I just wanted to say that so far, age 4 has been REALLY HARD for all my children. Not that it will be automatically better, but you said upthread somewhere that he didn't seem to be able to discuss all his feelings, and needed to act out physically. This was our experience too. We just didn't have the tantrums that you've described in length.

Hang in there.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysmom2* 
Bisou - I have read this whole thread and I just have to say you rock! Good for you for standing up for your baby! He is SO lucky to have you for his mother! Many, many hugs to you. You and your little guy have been in prayers. I hope things continue to go well for both of you - you both deserve lots of peace and happiness.









Thanks so much! Had a little mommy meltdown two days ago. I just work SOOO hard and it's often hard to be patient. It can be so hard to get us out the door in the morning! I am sure most moms can relate. What kid wants to go to school or daycare instead of stay with mom? (Well, maybe some, but probably not most!) It's not really in his best interest to cooperate! LOL. Anyway, I burst into tears, called my mom, told my son it wasn't his fault, that mommy was just tired, then today I scheduled my first massage in about four months and made it a good one: I scheduled a 90 minute massage, and now I feel like a new woman! Tomorrow I am getting acupuncture, again for the first time in four or five months. Enough putting everything else first: work, parenting, cleaning, the cat box! I need some major rejuvenation. If the way I felt today after this 90 minute massage is any indication, I need to do this way more often and make whatever changes necessary to the budget to make this happen more often.

How many of us parents can relate to that?


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hjdmom24* 
First of all hugs to you- I had tears in my eyes reading your origanal post because I can relate in a way. My son has had behavioral problems since about the age of 2. He has been diagnosed with many things including bipolar. I too did not want to try meds- but eventually did due to pressure from the school and daycare. He started to develop tics and I was somehow (I don't remember how) led to chiropractic. I had him see a chiro and his tics almost instantly resolved- I decided to homeschool and took him off the meds and then made the mistake of also stopping the chiro. Last year at the age of 9 his behavior was WAY out of control and I ended up resorting to meds again- which actually seemed to make things worse and the tics came back! The tics made me remember the chiro and again as soon as we started with that the tics went away- I again discontinued the meds and am happy to say that after a about a year of chiro and 8 months of half day long outpatient therapy that I finally have a managable child- he still freaks out a bit more then other kids his age but its mostly only verbal and that is a huge improvement. All that to say that if it hasn't already been mentioned you may want to try to find a good chiropractor if you are still uncomfortable with the meds.

That's a good suggestion. I would also consider homeopathy, as the other poster suggested.

I was going to ask how old he is, but it looks like he's around 9-10.

You know, I know some of the behavior problems our kids have are genetic, and some are environmental, but I have to wonder how much of our kids behavioral issues are caused by our society. Most of us live such chaotic lives these days. We no longer have villages or tribes. I guess I think about this more than some people might as a single mom with very little support. I think, "If I lived in a tribe, all of the people would help raise the children, and I wouldn't be totally alone in this!" Perhaps I am oversimplifying things, but with so many parents working and children being raised by daycare providers (some of whom are wonderful, I grant you that) I just think we've gone in a direction that is really unhealthy for human beings. Keep in mind that I am one of those people, as a single mom, who pretty much has to work full time and put her child in childcare, so I am not criticizing anyone who has made the same choice. It's just too bad that our society isn't more family-oriented than it is. How cool would it be if we could bring our kids to the workplace? Tribes people did/do all their work with the kids right there. Maybe I should just go live in a commune!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suprgrl* 
"The behavioral pediatrician said that it just shows he has awareness of what's socially appropriate and that after holding it in all day, he blows his fuse when he's with me because he feels safe doing so with me.. "

I agree with this.

With my background in working with ADD, ODD, and otherwise defiant kids, I would advise against putting a child this young on meds. I agree that he has been severly traumatized and sounds to be a sensitive kid who has been greatly affected by these instances. No amount of meds will help him overcome the feelings that he needs to deal with in order to move past the hurt and anger he feels. I have seen countless kids who have lived their life on meds from a young age and underneath continue to be the same angry and hurt small child they were the first time they were put on meds.
I think the play therapy is a great idea! Have you read Playful Parenting?
The time outs seem to not be working. IMO he seems to be acting out with you because he does not have the verbal ability to articulate the extreme anger and hurt he feels. He may feel fear every day at school that he can't trust anyone there to not hurt him like he has been hurt before. You are his safe place. I really like the time in idea. Let him know you love and accept him... that it is okay to be angry and hurt, and that you will help him through it. Once he is calmed down then you can talk with him about better ways to handle it. Is there a certain word he could say when he is starting to feel out of control? It could be a silly or serious word that would let you know he needs a time in. He may also really benefit from being wrestled with in a playful way. Where he can feel powerful by pushing you over and seeing you fall dramatically. Maybe you could get him a punching bag he can take his aggression out on? Does he have plenty of time and space to release his physical energy? Places he can jump, hit things (balls, punching bag), etc. Positive releases of physical energy. His need to get this stuff out of him will not go away. You may be able to suppress it with meds, but it will not cure his feelings. Many kids have told me that their meds only keep them from expressing the anger they still feel inside.
It sounds like you have a very sensitive, feeling, active little boy who feels betrayed and needs to know that he is loved and accepted unconditionally. That does not mean that you are okay with his violence, but he needs to know that you will not remove your love (which he may be feeling during time outs - which then causes him to just act out more cause he does not have the words to express the deep fears he has). You are his safe place. He feels safe letting it all out with you. Love him, hug him, let him know you will get through his pain together with him.
You are an amazing mother. You are searching out the best possible options for your baby, and obviously love him more than anything.
Hugs to you and your sweet baby boy.

Thanks for your post. I totally agree with all that you've said! I actually have the book "Playful Parenting" right here on my bookshelf, and I've had it for a few years. I just pulled it out a few days ago and started reading it again. I've had a hard time with these intense time outs, as his therapist suggests (or has suggested--she is flexible to changing things around, which is one of her many good points) that I physically restrain him when he won't stay in time out, which is just completely hideous at times, like we are now in this physical battle. Sometimes he will ask me, "Please, mommy, sit with me for my time out!!!" but then I feel like he isn't really having to deal with the consequences of his actions. It's so confusing for me at times.

The book "Transforming the Difficult Child" says that you should not ever give the child positive reinforcement for negative behavior, or any attention at all for the negative behavior. This is in line with what his therapist says as well, but I do admit that it's hard when he seems to want me and want comfort not to give him that comfort. I end up feeling, then, like I am not setting a strong enough boundary, so it's just confusing. There's this disconnect between what I feel like doing and what I think I should do.

I was raised in a fairly abusive environment with severe "spanking." It really should be called beating rather than spanking. I'd have bruises sometimes from the backs of my knees to my mid-back. I have trouble with disciplining my son because I don't want him to feel I don't love him (as I felt as a child), but I also know I can't be overly lenient. Sometimes when I get extremely frustrated with his behavior, I can swing into the opposite extreme of being too harsh, yelling, and not being the parent I want to be.

I feel a lot of guilt because when he was being abused at his daycare at two years of age was when his behavior really got out of control. He would scream, hit me, scratch himself, hit his head on the floor, and rip his clothes off when it was time to go to daycare. It was completely awful. My mother's instinct told me that something was wrong, but my friends just said, "Nothing is wrong. He just doesn't want to go to daycare, but you just have to tell him he has to go because you have to go to work, and that's all there is to it." There were a few times when I got very angry at him for this behavior, and I feel so bad about that looking back. He was completely distraught about having to go and be hurt, but he just couldn't quite tell me. He was only barely two years old at the time. Even then, his verbal skills were quite good, because shortly after this behavior got really intense, he came home one day, screamed and cried as I removed his diaper for a bath, and as I asked "What is wrong, honey?" he said, his exact words, "The teacher hit my penis."

It's so hard that I've been unable to protect him. I feel guilty because it was my decision to move us out of my parents' house back to the city where we live (an hour and a half from where my parents live), which meant I had to put him in daycare. However, we couldn't stay with my parents. We fought constantly, and I was suicidal most of the time we lived there because it was so completely miserable living with them. I checked this daycare out SO thoroughly, dropping in unannounced, stopping parents in the parking lot to interrogate them (how long have your kids been here? do you like it? have any complaints? everyone loved it), etc, but this still happened. The same happened at the place we were recently at, a Waldorf preschool, where he was force-fed. This woman had been a director of Waldorf schools for 20 years. I had heard from many former employees that she was cruel to her employees, but they always said she was fine with the kids. This turned out to not be true. I chose this school primarily because my son was thrilled that they had bunnies and two school cats. He adores animals.

Anyway, I am rambling on, going from one subject to another. There is so much to our story, so much heartbreak, so much emotion.

To get back to the original poster's questions and comments, I do encourage wrestling and rough play (without hurting each other) with my son. We pillow fight, wrestle, play horsey, hit the couch with this big foam bat, and all that sort of thing. His therapist encourages me to find alternative ways for him to get out that energy, so I try to do that, but probably need to do it more. I try to make sure he gets enough exercise (this kid could exercise three hours at day at an intense pace, easily, without being tired at all), enough sleep, and the right foods.

I know he doesn't trust people and he often feels afraid. He is very sensitive and easily gets his feelings hurt by both adults and other kids. Sometimes this leads to crying and other times to anger. I am seeing improvements, slowly but surely. Right now I am glad I didn't try the medication route. It might be on the table later, but it's not now.

I am not sure whether he has a mental illness, but I do know that he's been through way more in his young life, especially in the last two years (the daycare abuse to the genital area, serious attempted break-in when my son and I were home alone, and force-feeding incident at daycare have all happened in less than two years!) than many kids face ever. It makes me angry that he's had to go through so much. It's hard not to blame myself, like "If I wasn't a single mom, he wouldn't have had to go through this." I guess that doesn't help anything or change anything. I just feel so bad that I was unable to protect him. I was unable to keep him safe when he was just an innocent little baby. (Of course no one was ever prosecuted for the abuse. The govt association who investigated said, "Well, no one saw anything." Right, like someone with any brain at all is going to abuse a child with an audience! They told me they wouldn't take the testimony of a child under four. So I said, "So you mean to tell me that someone can abuse a child under four, and as long as no one sees anything, even if the child can say what happened and name the person who did it, then it's just ok?" They responded, "No, we do not take the testimony of a child under four." Wow. Let's hope potential child abusers/molesters don't get wind of that! Can you tell I still have a little anger about this? It's just so wrong.)

Anyway, thanks for the post. It encourages me to keep doing what I've been doing with my son, and MORE OF IT!


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## PlayaMama

i just want to pop in with something. it sounds to me like when he's asking you to stay with him in time out, he's asking for connection, he's not asking as a way to get out of the consequences of his actions.

maybe if you look at it differently then that will help you decide what to do.

like, we do time-ins where i sit with my son until he can get his emotions under control. he's almost 5 but he is also a very sensitive kid. it really helps reassure him that i don't dislike _him_ but he needs help and some quiet time getting control.

i am SO so sorry that that happened to your little guy. i can NOT believe that there were no charges pressed, or at least taking away the license of those places.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i just want to pop in with something. it sounds to me like when he's asking you to stay with him in time out, he's asking for connection, he's not asking as a way to get out of the consequences of his actions.

maybe if you look at it differently then that will help you decide what to do.

like, we do time-ins where i sit with my son until he can get his emotions under control. he's almost 5 but he is also a very sensitive kid. it really helps reassure him that i don't dislike _him_ but he needs help and some quiet time getting control.

i am SO so sorry that that happened to your little guy. i can NOT believe that there were no charges pressed, or at least taking away the license of those places.









Hi PlayaMama:

I agree with you; I've had that same feeling. He is feeling sad and scared, perhaps that he is in trouble or perhaps because he got out of control, or both. I guess my fear is that if he figures out he can hit me, then we just sit and sort of snuggle together, that doesn't seem like a very negative consequence. I have a hard time finding the line between being harsh and giving "punishment" and giving appropriate consequences that make the negative behavior seem less appealing.
*
How do other parents deal with this, especially those of you who have the more spirited/challenging/difficult/emotional/tempermental/emotionally disregulated (or however you want to define it) children???*

Yes, the abuse at the daycare was completely horrifying, and what seemed almost more horrifying was that the government organization (here in Oregon, it's the Department of Human Services, previously Child Protective Services) basically said, "Well, no one saw anything, and the other kids seem to like her, and she said she didn't do anything." WHAT???? Ok, so that makes it ok? Someone at this place ripped the skin off my son's testicles, and my son NAMED the person when I asked who did this. The doctor said there was NO WAY this was an accidental injury. But of course his word doesn't mean anything.

I've tried to let my anger about this go as much as possible, as I wasn't able to do anything about it. I did pursue the idea of suing the organization--it was a large corporately-owned daycare, one that I believe is national--but the lawyer wanted me to try to get my son to talk about it, record it, have him explain it to a child psychologist, and I thought that that might do more harm than good to my son. He got extremely upset if you ever brought it up. For a week afterwards, every time you'd change his diaper, he'd cry and say, "Mommy, the teacher hit my penis and it hurt. That bad teacher hurt me," and I would say, "I know, honey. That was so wrong for her to do. Mommy is so sorry that happened to you," and I would comfort him in whatever way I could. He also told my parents, both of them, the same thing on several occasions when they would change his diaper. We all just could barely keep from sobbing about it. So many things have happened to him, and to me, that just absolutely suck. Sometimes it's hard for me to live in this world and not see everyone as the enemy, or a possible person who could hurt us, but that's not the way I want to live. Thanks to all of you for reminding me that there are GOOD, decent, caring people in the world. None of you have anything to gain from reading this or responding and giving me advice, other than just that you want to help someone, someone who is a complete stranger.

Thanks everyone for your continued support and input.


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## mamarhu

I just came across this article - seems to relate...

http://www.deborahhage.com/articles/childrenbehave.html

This article is intended for adoptive families, with attachment issues, and is pretty judgmental about the biological parents. But the first part of the article, about the thought process of the child is pretty cool.


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## Surfacing

Bisou I have just read this whole thread and am astonished at what you both have had to overcome in the past several years. Bless you for taking such good care of your child, and give yourself permission to be human. Progress in parenting, not perfection! I hope you find more answers to the questions you have. I pray for peace, healing and health for you both.

And yes, you simply *NEED* to take time to fill up your cup. So the 90 minute massages are NECESSARY. I have an intense dd1 (not a 6 hour tantrumer, just a 1 hour tantrumer) and know that I need self-care breaks to keep functioning. You are not alone in that.


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## rayo de sol

Hugs, Bisou.

All of the traumas and abuse that you and your son have been through are so heartbreaking and horrifying.

For what it's worth, I really don't think that your son is mentally ill. He's been so mistreated by his daycare providers! And then the terror of the break-in!

Maybe he just needs more therapy--and more connection time with you--to slowly heal from these traumas he has endured. I think he just needs unconditional love from you. Try to have as much quality time with him as possible.

I think you're doing great, but I hope you won't feel bad if I gently suggest that I think maybe you're being too _strict_ with him. He's only four, afterall, and he's been through a lot. Maybe some of his behaviors are age-appropriate or trauma-appropriate. I'm not saying you should let him hurt you physically, but I don't think punishment is a necessary part of childhood, especially for someone as sensitive and traumatized as your child.

If I were you, I would get rid of the time-outs. From his perspective, you're simply with-holding your love from him during time-outs, love that he desperately needs to heal from his traumas. He needs to know that you love him--even if he can't behave perfectly.

Have you considered consulting a naturopath or an herbalist? I wonder if some gentle herbs would calm him down when he's pushing you over the edge? Valerian or chamomile might help.

Also, you mentioned that you're vegetarian. Would you be willing to add meat to your diet on a trial basis to see if it might help to stabilize his behavior? Some children really need that fat and protein. Animal foods can have a very sacred healing affect. I've seen it firsthand.

Do you think your parents could be being abusive to your son when you're not around? Since they were so abusive to you, I would consider it.

Finally, I would like to share that I've seen firsthand that Risperdal can be both dangerous and ineffective. A family member of mine is on it, and it's ruining her health, and not helping her mental illness. If you google Risperdal, you will find all sorts of horrifying information about the drug.

And that doctor who wants you to give him Risperdal sounds just awful! I wouldn't follow any of her advice. She sounds like a wretched, irresponsible, insensitive doctor.

Good luck, Bisou! I really hope for the best for you and your son.


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## mamakay

Hi, Bisou.
I feel the need to tell you my tale.
My ds, at 4, was very similar to yours. It was "over the top". At age one, 2, and 3, everyone said it was still "age appropriate".
Newly turning 4, it was not necessarily "age appropriate" any more.
I was probably facing a heavy diagnosis for my kid and meds, too.

I lived with a lot of guilt and assumed (correctly) that it was possibly my parenting that had "done this" to my kid.
I became frantic by the middle of his fourth year, and decided I needed to either fix it myself, or accept the med route.
So I went sort of gently Pavlovian on him.
Every minor infraction was met with him being sent to his room "for one two". (He simply had to go to his room and count to two. This was so minor, he did it without protest, mostly)
If he refused to do that, he got grounded from larger things, like his bike.
I grounded him from tv for about two months during the process.
Good behavior was rewarded with a trip to the store for candy.
But "going Pavlovian" worked, sans meds.
And now he's 6 years old, and just _angelic_. He hasn't thrown a fit in a store, or tried to destroy the house, in _years_.
I can go out and do stuff with him, and the whole experience is fun for both of us. His previous incessant negativity is gone.
He's now just your basically average bright, sweet, 6 yo. But, omg, it didn't look like it was going to pan out like this at 4.

ETA:
I should also mention, I now have an almost 2 year old now, too. Who I parented in almost the exact same way as I parented my 6 yo. And the 2 yo never tantrums for more than, like, 15 seconds, tops. She's just naturally mellow, and AP'ing "works" for her.
So I, personally, suspect that "spiritedness" (or whatever) is mostly genetic.


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## suprgrl

Bisou,

I agree that your boy is wanting to connect with you when he asks you to stay with him during time out. It probably helps him feel safe, and loved while at the same time being better able to gain control of himself. Love and connection should not be used as a reward. Eventually you want him to learn how to calm himself down and gain self-control on his own, but right now it seems like he needs your help to accomplish that.
Another excellent book that addresses this issue is Unconditional Parenting which I have just recently begun to re-read as I needed a refresher course for my own boys.
Due to my upbringing I tend to have this little voice in the back of my head that tells me that they need punishment and pain in order to "get it". But in reality they learn most from my example. The more I deal gently and compassionately with them they more they treat me and others in that same gentle way. When I listen to my own gut rather than those ridiculous voices in my head that come from my own childhood pain, I find that my natural inclination is to connect, and then correct.
And definately take time to take care of yourself! That is a NEED!
Hugs to you. You are a strong mama. You and your son will get through this together. He will know without a doubt that he is loved. Please try not to beat yourself up about the past. You made the best decisions you could. You are here now. Move forward with love and compassion. Things will continue to get better.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
That's a good suggestion. I would also consider homeopathy, as the other poster suggested.

I was going to ask how old he is, but it looks like he's around 9-10.

You know, I know some of the behavior problems our kids have are genetic, and some are environmental, but I have to wonder how much of our kids behavioral issues are caused by our society. Most of us live such chaotic lives these days. We no longer have villages or tribes. I guess I think about this more than some people might as a single mom with very little support. I think, "If I lived in a tribe, all of the people would help raise the children, and I wouldn't be totally alone in this!" Perhaps I am oversimplifying things, but with so many parents working and children being raised by daycare providers (some of whom are wonderful, I grant you that) I just think we've gone in a direction that is really unhealthy for human beings. Keep in mind that I am one of those people, as a single mom, who pretty much has to work full time and put her child in childcare, so I am not criticizing anyone who has made the same choice. It's just too bad that our society isn't more family-oriented than it is. How cool would it be if we could bring our kids to the workplace? Tribes people did/do all their work with the kids right there. *Maybe I should just go live in a commune!*

Can my kids and I come?


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Been thinking of you guys, and hope all is well. (no news is good news?)


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## ILuvMyBaby

OMG...I could not read this thread and not post.

I just can't get over the trauma your son went threw at such a young age. Have you thought about trying craniosacral therapy? I had a horrible birth experience with my first son and while doing the therapy she recreated the birth but made it with a pleasant ending...I am not explaining it well sorry...It is kind of strange to write. When she was working on me, I could really feel the birth again.

Maybe he needs to go back to that time in his life (mentally) and go threw the experience a different way to build better connections in his brain.

typing with one hand sorry I can't write more


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Hi Bisou,

Found myself thinking of you and your little prince and hoping you are having a very blessed Holiday season.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Hi Bisou,

Found myself thinking of you and your little prince and hoping you are having a very blessed Holiday season.










Hi Barbie:

Strange, I was just thinking about posting an update over the past few days! I do want to do that and NEED to do that, but it's almost 1:00 am, and I need to hit the sack.

In short, things have been up and down for us. The most distressing thing for me lately has been that our cat died (my beloved cat I'd had for over 16 years!) and we got a new kitty, which my son has started intentionally hurting over the past week or two. I never would've expected this from him in a MILLION years! My son has always been the most gentle and loving child you've ever seen with animals, so surprisingly so, even at a young age, that people have often commented on how extremely wonderful he was with animals. It was a source of great pride for me! I just was soooo proud of his gentleness with animals. He would even chastise the neighbor kids in our old neighborhood when they'd scream at the neighborhood cats or chase them. Those cats hated all of the other kids, except my son!

So, we got this new little kitty. She's five months old, a very adorable Exotic Shorthair (basically a short-haired Persian) and my son was just thrilled about her at first, but then he started getting frustrated with her that she wasn't reacting to him the way he wanted. He wants to carry her around all the time, and she's not into being carried or held much, even by me, so she started hiding under the bed to get away from him, which made him upset. One day I was in the shower, and when I got out, he said, "Mom, you need to put me in time out." "Why?" I asked. He said, "I hurt Lilly (our cat)." I asked him what he did, and he said he pulled her tail and that she yowled. I was SOOOOO upset and angry. The next day he pulled her leg, also while I was in the shower. I can't even begin to explain how distressing this is to me! He then told me that he had hit her and thrown her, and he was sort of laughing about it, like a nervous laughter, I guess. The kitty doesn't appear to be hurt at all at this point, but I don't want her to be physically or emotionally damaged by this, obviously! I don't want her to have pain, even temporarily, or be afraid of us. I don't want her to hide from him. I thought this cat would be a good, happy thing for us when we've had nothing but sadness, fear, and stress over the past six months or so with facing a serious, life-threatening crime, losing our home, and just having our entire lives ripped away from us. It started out so well, and he was so happy to have his new kitty, then suddenly he's hurting her!!! I don't really get it.

My mom, who always blames EVERYTHING on me, said that he was probably jealous of the attention she was getting, but I purposefully DON'T give her lots of attention when he is awake because I didn't want to cause any problems. I spend most of my time petting and playing with her when he's asleep or when he's not here.

I think his problem is that she isn't playing with him the way he wants her to, so he's angry. I also think that he gets frustrated with her because he gets in trouble for picking her up too much and getting her out from under the bed when she's gone there to hide. Sometimes I have to tell him that if he picks her up again (for the 20th time!) or bothers her under the bed (where she is going to hide from him, obviously) that he will have a time out. I think he might resent her because of this, like the new baby sister who's getting him in trouble. I have no idea. Just randomly hypothesizing.

Things have calmed down with that over the last week, but I've just been DEVASTATED about the thought that I might have to get rid of her. I don't want her to be hurt! I don't want him to be hurting her! But I also fear what it would do him to have the cat removed because he was hurting her. I'd like to see him be successful (stop hurting the cat) rather than have to take her away because he can't act appropriately, but I don't want to put the cat at risk to give him that chance.

He always was so extremely wonderful with animals. Cats, even those we didn't know, loved him so much that people called him the Cat Whisperer! Our neighbor's cats where we used to live would come running when they'd see our car just because they loved my son. It's just devastating to me to think "WHAT IS WRONG WITH HIM?"

His therapist said that she didn't think we needed to get rid of the cat just yet. I went into her office two days after this started (without my son, of course) and I was crying so hard for the first five minutes that I couldn't even talk. She was just sitting there looking at me like "Wow! What is going on???" She said she hopes that she doesn't regret this, but that she thought I should see if I can help him work this through and NOT hurt the cat.

I've been talking to him about how the cat will want to be around him more if he's gentle and doesn't chase her and pick her up all the time. He has been better over the last few days, and now the cat is lying down next to him while he's playing, but I am just so nervous every time I have to be away from them, like what is he capable of doing????? It just makes me sick to my stomach. I don't want her to get hurt, and I don't want him to hurt her, or to want to hurt her, or have the experience of hurting her. That is just so unhealthy and so sick. It just makes me ill. I don't want to think that he's a monster---hurting an innocent kitten!

I tried locking her in the bathroom with me when I took a shower after the second time he hurt her (I thought the first time was a fluke and wouldn't happen again after we talked about it so much), but he just screamed and cried and pounded on the door, and I was worried that someone was going to call and complain. (We live in an apartment building where noise travels easily.)

Ugh. So much for the quick update, huh? I started writing and it just poured out like a flash flood. I guess it needed to be discussed.

*You all have been such a great support system for me, so thank you.* I am a single mom, and I really have VERY little support.

The last time my son was totally out of control and I was feeling like I was going to literally (I mean LITERALLY!) lose my mind, I called my mom for support, and she said, SHE was going to lose it because it was so hard for her! She then said *she wanted to kill herself because she couldn't handle how hard my life was* (What???? my life is so hard for YOU now you're going to kill yourself????), and that it was harder for her to hear about what was going on with my son than it was for me to live it! I swear, if I was raped, this woman would say it was harder for her to hear about me being raped than for me to be raped!!!! I understand that as a mother and grandmother, it's hard for her to see us in distress and to see her grandson having serious problems, but come on---it's not harder for her than it is for me to actually LIVE this. Please. Get a grip!

The conversation ended when my mom suggested, as she's done several times, that *if I can't handle my son maybe I should just find him a nice, loving family. YES, she suggested I give him up for adoption.* I promptly hung up on her. She's done this several times, and each time she's said this, I've told her "DO NOT EVER, EVER, SAY THAT TO ME AGAIN!" The thing is that she loves my son beyond belief, and if I ever did think I wanted to give him up for adoption, something I would NEVER DO IN A MILLION YEARS, I know for a fact with 100% certainty that my parents would fight tooth and nail to adopt him. Heck, maybe that's what she's going for. I don't know. But it's just the ultimate cruel thing to say when someone has been having a full on battle for 3-4+ hours, alone, with an out of control child.







It's such an insult, such a huge slap in the face, like it would be better for him to live with someone else than with me, like the pain of him being given away by his mom when he's old enough to know exactly what's going on would be a better choice for him than staying with me. And why? Because I don't love him or don't want him????? NO. Because I am about to lose my mind when he's been hitting, screaming, biting, and being out of control for hours on end.

I have only a few friends at this point, none who are very close, and I don't feel comfortable calling them to say that my son is out of control, hitting, biting, hurting the cat, etc. I don't think people know how to handle that.

I did find out that there was a child abuse prevention hotline that parents could call if they were feeling overwhelmed with an out-of-control child, and I might try that the next time he gets that way instead of calling my mom, which obviously is not a good choice. Apparently they are non-reporting, so they don't turn people in for calling. I am not suggesting that I am hurting my son, but sometimes after hours of this behavior I am just soooo at my wits' end that I feel like I am going to snap. I was beaten by my parents, so when I am extremely frustrated, angry, and just frazzled beyond belief, those aggressive tendencies want to come out----screaming, absolutely no patience, physically dragging him to time out----the opposite of how I want to act!!!! I just get to the point where I am like "WHAT IS GOING TO MAKE YOU STOP! I WANT YOU TO STOP!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I feel like nothing I am doing is working.

Next time I feel like that I am going to call the hotline and hope it's helpful.

I know this all sounds so awful and negative, and I don't want it to be that way. Actually, after my last postings, I REALLY tried to just suck up all my strength and patience, and my son did much better for a while.

I know some of you will say that this is just further evidence that he is mentally ill (bipolar has been the most common suggestion) and that he needs medication. I have not ruled that out, but I am not ready to go there yet. I have seen improvement in him overall, which is why this whole situation with the cat was SOOO upsetting. He seems like he wants to get a reaction out of me, so it seems like that is part of it too.

Wow. I am just going on and on. Thanks for listening to me, dear readers.

I know I probably need to look at his diet more. He's eating a lot more refined foods than he should due to our overly stressful, busy, hectic lifestyle. I work almost two full-time jobs on top of being full-time single mom, and in order to keep him out of full-time daycare, I do a lot of work at night when he's asleep, often losing precious hours of sleep. I know somehow we need to find more balance. There are so many things I could do better. Sigh.

I am also thinking about trying some alternative medicine, like acupuncture or acupressure and naturopathic medicine. I want to exhaust all avenues before I try hardcore chemical medications. It's just so scary to me. What are the long-term consequences for his brain if he takes these meds? I know there are consequences to what's going on now too.

He's awake, so have to go. Sleep disturbances and nightmares are another problem he's been having, especially since the break-in attempt we had in May. We're both suffering because of that.

Merry Christmas to everyone, and thanks so much for your continued support.

With love,
Bisou


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## newmum35

Havent had time to read entire thread, but skimmed most.. I read a wonderful book called "Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves" it mentions how time outs are NOT good and tells why. Talks about how kids that do bad things actually need to be loved afterwards instead of punished so that they know that they are still loved and in doing so they are able to resolve their issues much quicker. It talks about tantrums... I'm probably doing a bad job at explaining it well, but this book was NOT written for children with mental disorders, just normal parenting book for everyone!! I think it might have some good things in it you can use, its wonderful.

ETA: I found the book and posted a link, author is Naomi Aldort


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

I noticed you have listed your location (I dont rememeber seeing it before) and unfortunatly, you couldn't be any further away from me then if you were in Japan!







I would love to be part of your support system, even if its just through MDC or email.

Maybe the fact that your cat is YOUR CAT and is not responding to him the way your other cat used to is extra frustrating for him?

Your mom doesnt sound like a very good support system for you (How could she say all this trauma is YOUR FAULT?). Im sorry you dont have any friends that can be a better shoulder for you to lean on. Hopefully the hotline will be a better outlet for you when you are at your lowest and need a friendly ear to vent too.

Wishing you and your son a very Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year filled with new beginings and a CLEAN SLATE!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
Havent had time to read entire thread, but skimmed most.. I read a wonderful book called "Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves" it mentions how time outs are NOT good and tells why. Talks about how kids that do bad things actually need to be loved afterwards instead of punished so that they know that they are still loved and in doing so they are able to resolve their issues much quicker. It talks about tantrums... I'm probably doing a bad job at explaining it well, but this book was NOT written for children with mental disorders, just normal parenting book for everyone!! I think it might have some good things in it you can use, its wonderful.

ETA: I found the book and posted a link, author is Naomi Aldort

Thanks for that information! I am always on the lookout for new books and have bought several that other MDC moms have suggested. A behavioral pediatrician has suggested my son may have a problem/disorder that needs regulating, but I am not completely convinced. I know when I can stay completely calm and patient with him, he does MUCH better, but I am a single mom who works SOOOOO much, and he is SOOOOOO challenging that I just can't be the perfect parent I want to be all the time.

I used to be totally against time outs and would just talk to him about his behavior instead. In theory, I don't like the idea of time outs. But it became somewhat clear that he needed some kind of more serious punishment because if I talked to him about things, he would just keep doing what he wasn't supposed to be doing over and over and over. I've also tried distraction and "playful parenting" (from a book of the same name), and it works ok on the good days and is worthless on the bad days. Having the patience of a saint works fairly well, but on those days when I am exhausted and just beyond stressed and I have to tell him ten million times not to do this or that, and especially when he is being aggressive towards me, that's when I lose it.

Today has been a nice day! We went to his therapist for play therapy this morning, had a nice breakfast at a restaurant where he charmed the servers and cook (told our waitress "Thanks for the great service!" LOL), and are now at home getting ready to cook an apple pie together. These days are what I thought parenting would be like most of the time. Has he been perfectly well behaved today and listened to everything? No, but that's not what I expect from him either. Usually, though, his behavior is WAY off the charts.

Anyway, I am rambling again. Thanks for your reply!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
I noticed you have listed your location (I dont rememeber seeing it before) and unfortunatly, you couldn't be any further away from me then if you were in Japan!







I would love to be part of your support system, even if its just through MDC or email.

Maybe the fact that your cat is YOUR CAT and is not responding to him the way your other cat used to is extra frustrating for him?

Your mom doesnt sound like a very good support system for you (How could she say all this trauma is YOUR FAULT?). Im sorry you dont have any friends that can be a better shoulder for you to lean on. Hopefully the hotline will be a better outlet for you when you are at your lowest and need a friendly ear to vent too.

Wishing you and your son a very Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year filled with new beginings and a CLEAN SLATE!

Thanks so much Barbie! I may take you up on the email buddy offer!









I am going to cuddle with my son now in bed, which he has requested. THESE are the moments that I cherish! Unfortunately, I see a lot of his dad in him. His dad (who has never met him) could be the sweetest, kindest, most affectionate person, then out of the blue he would just be a completely psycho, cruel person. It scares me to think that my son could have these same tendencies. I don't know if that's typical of bipolar disorder or not. My son's dad was SEVERELY abused (raped by his dad, forced to have sex with siblings, prostituted by his parents as a child----HORRIBLE stuff), so that always explained his crazy behavior, and of course, made me put up with things I shouldn't have because I wanted to prove to him that he was a lovable person and that there were people (ME!) who could be trusted and who would love him. Yeah, that's a whole different story! I know my son's father's trauma caused a lot of his horrible behavior, but I have to wonder if both my son and his dad don't have something wrong with their wiring. That said, my son has had his share of trauma too!

Alright, off to cuddle. Merry Christmas to everyone!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

O.M.G Bisou!!! How do you stay sane?!?!?!?!

Hope you had a wonderful holiday! Look forward to another pleansent update!


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## raksmama

Dear Bisou,
I just found this thread and have tears in my eyes.
I can tell you are a wonderful and none of this is your fault.
I have not read all the replies so sorry if this has been brought up already, but it seems your son could have Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD). If this is the case, meds will not really help. He needs to see an Occupational Therapist ASAP. Unfortunately many child psychologists and doctors do not know anything about Sensory Processing Disorder. The good thing is your son is young so if he starts Occupational Therapy soon, he can be greatly helped and there are lots of things you can do for him.
Here is some information about SPD http://www.spdfoundation.net/aboutspd.html#lookslike

A good book is The Out of Sync Child
http://www.out-of-sync-child.com/

And the sensory Sensitive Child
http://www.sensorysensitivechild.com/index2.html

I agree with others who suggested possible Food Allergies. Allergies can also attribute to poor sensory processing and in your son's case it sounds like his is overly sensitive hence his strong reactions. I am not an
Occupational Therapist but my son did have SPD so I did a lot of research on it.
Good Luck Mama, my heart goes out to you.


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## unschoolinmom

I second the pp. Both my children have SPD. My daughter is tactile defensive and my son is a seeker. They received OT and it was a life saver.

The Out of Sync Child is a great book!

I wanted to add more. My son, now 4 was in several daycares and kicked out of all of them because of his aggression. He actually landed one child in the hospital after biting his face so hard it split his eyebrow open and he needed stitches.

He would run into walls for no reason, scream, and toe walked. He did not speak right away either. The pediatrician had us take him to the pediatric neurologist who was the same one that treated me as a child when I had epilepsy. He gave my son Risperdal at .5 mg three times a day. A VERY high dose for a child of 2 1/2. But it did help a bit. It was also through an organization called Easter Seals that told me he also had SPD just like his big sister only he was on the opposite sides of the spectrum. As I mentioned, she is tactile defensive (certain fabrics, food textures, colors even, and movements like swings make her crazy).

He is a seeker meaning he tries to find stimuli in order to feel a sense of normalcy. Even to this day he does cartwheels down the hallway instead of walking and for two years had to wear AFO leg braces with physical therapy to help with the toe walking. When he was unable to voice what he needed, he couldn't cope, his body awareness was non-existent and he was just what everyone else deemed a "problem child".

I was able to get both my kids into OT services, speech therapy and the physical therapy for him. It was wonderful. Plus with my help I got him off the medicine which is very damaging to the liver, took any food that contained yellow 6 and red 5 out of his diet and cut out artificial colorings, perservatives and sweets. Which has a major effect on children behavior.

He has not used his braces since, he never stops talking, he's no longer aggressive, and though he still "seeks" it's not as bad as it was. I also got him into ballet, tap, jazz, and acrobatics with his sister which have really gave him a great outlet for his need for stimulus but in a controlled setting. Karate is also a great one and music especially for children with SPD. I just got him a lap harp which give him both auditory, visual and physical stimuli at once.

I would also suggest getting the Out of Sync Child Has Fun. It comes packed with activities for children with SPD to do that will help them when they're having a bad day. Good luck hon.


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## PaisleyStar

Ok, I hope this does not offend, but here goes: I have just read through the whole thread, and your descriptions of your son's behaviour are really, really disturbing. My deduction as an outsider is: either you are really, really messing up this parenting thing, or he is very ill. Now, before I get flamed, it does not seem to me that you are messing up badly enough to cause these sort of problems. You are a dedicated, hardworking, devoted, loving, positive mother who would go to the ends of the earth to find the solution for this child. From *my* perspective, your biggest failure has been making excuses for him, and dude who wouldn't want to see the very best and hope for the very best for their child? We all would. We all do. I am very, very sorry for you both for all the trauma that you have been through together,







but I really think there is more at play here. Both of his parents have mental health issues (& we know those are genetic), and that is ok. But he sounds very sick; he sounds like he needs help. Perhaps he is not getting a more aggressive approach/dx from the professionals he's seen because you are sugar coating some things because you are his mama and you can SEE all the WONDERFUL things about him through the really terrible, scary actions. You have said in this thread you may be over reacting; I will be the voice of dissent and say it seems you may be often under reacting. I hope that you will have clarity to see what he needs and to find/accept that for him & that you both are able to come to a place of peace and healing.
Peace,
PaisleyStar


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## provocativa

I'm sorry I couldn't read all the replies, but has abnormal brain histamine been mentioned? This article calls it a cause of opposational defiant disorder, http://www.healthrecovery.com/HRC_20...er.htm#hhchild -
mentions some ways to test and supplements to help. The implication is then to find what is causing the elevated histamine. Food allergies would be where I would start- with an elimination diet and Feingold diet, the works. It's a lot of work, but better than drugs, imo and iyo, obviously.


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## HaileyG

Poor thing. My son is also giving me a hard time but I keep hoping that it will get better when he starts to talk. Am I waiting in vain... ?


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## raksmama

Unschooled Mom,It is great reading about all that your children are doing now!
I just want to reply after reading paisley Mom's post that a Sensory Processing Disorder diagnosis is in no way sugar coating a condition (I am not saying you are implying this but your post just made me think about it.)
SPD IS very serious.
Jean Ayres, PhD the occupational therapist who was the pioneer who first described the problem over 50 years ago, observed that a high percentage of prison inmates had it! These were people who in their time when SPD was still unknown were probably already labelled as trouble makers, which of course effected their self esteem and they grew up to be outsiders just that!
I also believe there is a relationship between allergies and sensory integration as well which is my only complaint about a lot of the SPD literature out here. The books usually say know one knows why a person has SPD..


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## Bisou

Hi Jalilah:

I don't think anyone else has made that suggestion, so I will definitely check it out. I will check out the links you posted. Thanks! You have all been so helpful.

Things have been really up and down with my son over the last few weeks, as seems to be the pattern. I do notice that the more patient I am with him, the better he usually does, but sometimes his behavior is SOOOOO inappropriate/annoying/harmful/painful/destructive/or a combination of all of the above that it's hard to keep it together!

Thanks again for the information.

~Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jalilah* 
Dear Bisou,
I just found this thread and have tears in my eyes.
I can tell you are a wonderful and none of this is your fault.
I have not read all the replies so sorry if this has been brought up already, but it seems your son could have Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD). If this is the case, meds will not really help. He needs to see an Occupational Therapist ASAP. Unfortunately many child psychologists and doctors do not know anything about Sensory Processing Disorder. The good thing is your son is young so if he starts Occupational Therapy soon, he can be greatly helped and there are lots of things you can do for him.
Here is some information about SPD http://www.spdfoundation.net/aboutspd.html#lookslike

A good book is The Out of Sync Child
http://www.out-of-sync-child.com/

And the sensory Sensitive Child
http://www.sensorysensitivechild.com/index2.html

I agree with others who suggested possible Food Allergies. Allergies can also attribute to poor sensory processing and in your son's case it sounds like his is overly sensitive hence his strong reactions. I am not an
Occupational Therapist but my son did have SPD so I did a lot of research on it.
Good Luck Mama, my heart goes out to you.


----------



## Bisou

Hi Unschoolin:

I will have to read more about this. My son doesn't sound at all similar to your daughter, but may have some similar tendencies that your son has. Sometimes it seems like he is trying to get attention through his behavior, but sometimes it seems completely random. Sometimes he's just an angel (with an occasional minor tantrum, like any child would have). It's hard doing this all on my own though.

Thanks everyone, again, for the advice!

~Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
I second the pp. Both my children have SPD. My daughter is tactile defensive and my son is a seeker. They received OT and it was a life saver.

The Out of Sync Child is a great book!

I wanted to add more. My son, now 4 was in several daycares and kicked out of all of them because of his aggression. He actually landed one child in the hospital after biting his face so hard it split his eyebrow open and he needed stitches.

He would run into walls for no reason, scream, and toe walked. He did not speak right away either. The pediatrician had us take him to the pediatric neurologist who was the same one that treated me as a child when I had epilepsy. He gave my son Risperdal at .5 mg three times a day. A VERY high dose for a child of 2 1/2. But it did help a bit. It was also through an organization called Easter Seals that told me he also had SPD just like his big sister only he was on the opposite sides of the spectrum. As I mentioned, she is tactile defensive (certain fabrics, food textures, colors even, and movements like swings make her crazy).

He is a seeker meaning he tries to find stimuli in order to feel a sense of normalcy. Even to this day he does cartwheels down the hallway instead of walking and for two years had to wear AFO leg braces with physical therapy to help with the toe walking. When he was unable to voice what he needed, he couldn't cope, his body awareness was non-existent and he was just what everyone else deemed a "problem child".

I was able to get both my kids into OT services, speech therapy and the physical therapy for him. It was wonderful. Plus with my help I got him off the medicine which is very damaging to the liver, took any food that contained yellow 6 and red 5 out of his diet and cut out artificial colorings, perservatives and sweets. Which has a major effect on children behavior.

He has not used his braces since, he never stops talking, he's no longer aggressive, and though he still "seeks" it's not as bad as it was. I also got him into ballet, tap, jazz, and acrobatics with his sister which have really gave him a great outlet for his need for stimulus but in a controlled setting. Karate is also a great one and music especially for children with SPD. I just got him a lap harp which give him both auditory, visual and physical stimuli at once.

I would also suggest getting the Out of Sync Child Has Fun. It comes packed with activities for children with SPD to do that will help them when they're having a bad day. Good luck hon.


----------



## Bisou

Your mention of prison just reminded me of something my son said a few days ago. He said, "Mom, can you teach me to be good so I don't have to go to jail? If you can't teach me how to be good, I will be in jail when I grow up. I don't want to be in jail." Now, I want to be clear that no one has EVER said anything like this around him. He just came up with this himself, and it made me very sad!

In response to PaisleyMom, my son has been seeing a therapist and saw a behavioral pediatrician as well. Both the therapist (whom we've been seeing for about two years) and the behavioral pediatrician mentioned Bipolar Disorder. Believe me--I did not sugar coat or downplay anything! Also, my son's therapist has seen him in complete meltdown mode (screaming, hitting, hysterical, completely out of control), so she knows how bad it can be.

Just when I think I might break down and try medication, he does wonderfully for a few days or even weeks, and I think, "Come on, if he was mentally ill, he couldn't act this well!" But I know that some mental illnesses have fluctuations, so I don't know.

I do know that my son has had a LOT of trauma in just the last two years. In only two years he's had extreme damage done to his genital area by a daycare worker (confirmed by a doctor, which was reported to the police and child protective services), has been force-fed at another daycare, and experienced a 30 minute attempted home invasion with me. These are only the MAJOR traumas. He's also had some less major ones, like his nanny leaving after a year with no notice and never seeing him again. She was like his second mom, so this was devastating. There are many other things too. I am not saying this to excuse his behavior, but just to show that there are reasons he might feel like his world is out of control.

He is an extremely bright child with an off-the-charts vocabulary. His therapist is constantly amazed that he can do things, say things, and understand things that an 8-9 year old would. He is excellent with sports as well, and once shot 52 baskets pretty much in a row when he was playing basketball with me. (We were using a shorter hoop, but he was standing just as far back as I was and completely beat me, by like 30!) He has some amazing skills. He could ride his bike without training wheels before he was four years old. He asked to have them taken off, then just took off, the FIRST time, like he'd done it a million times.

So while his behavior is a major issue, he isn't suffering in intelligence, verbal skills, or motor skills, balance, etc. Actually, he EXCELS in all those areas. The only place where he is really lacking is in keeping his behavior under control, and it's mainly with me. He does great at school. The bad behavior comes out when he's with me or my parents, but to a lesser degree with my parents.

Sometimes I think he's angry at me for working so much and not spending lots of time with him. When we are home, I am often doing home chores (cooking, cleaning, etc) or checking work-related email. I often do get on the floor and play toys with him, but it seems like it's never enough with him. He always wants more time and more time. Of course I think he deserves this, but it doesn't justify his behavior.

Here's a current example. I was trying to sit here and type this while he was watching a show on TV. Out of the blue, he just kicked me extremely hard in the arm. Why? Because he doesn't want me to do anything except what he wants to do, and sometimes doing what he wants to do has the same results (which I'd NEVER do when he hit or kicked me, of course!).

Anyway, I now need to deal with a time out, so I will end this here. No time to edit, so I hope it makes sense!

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jalilah* 
Unschooled Mom,It is great reading about all that your children are doing now!
I just want to reply after reading paisley Mom's post that a Sensory Processing Disorder diagnosis is in no way sugar coating a condition (I am not saying you are implying this but your post just made me think about it.)
SPD IS very serious.
Jean Ayres, PhD the occupational therapist who was the pioneer who first described the problem over 50 years ago, observed that a high percentage of prison inmates had it! These were people who in their time when SPD was still unknown were probably already labelled as trouble makers, which of course effected their self esteem and they grew up to be outsiders just that!
I also believe there is a relationship between allergies and sensory integration as well which is my only complaint about a lot of the SPD literature out here. The books usually say know one knows why a person has SPD..


----------



## Bisou

So I've had a really awful day, and I hope you guys don't mind if I vent. Sorry--this is going to be a book. Put on your reading glasses!

I thought it might be good for my son to try gymnastics, as he's very athletic and always trying to do flips, cartwheels, handstands, and other gymnastic-type moves, and he's also been wanting to be around more kids his age, so I found a highly recommended gymnastics studio and signed him up. We went to the first class a few weeks ago, and he was really excited, but then completely scared when we got there. I kept encouraging him, and he would go join his class, but then he'd start crying and come running over to me. I was sitting right there where he could see me. The teacher was very nice and kept asking him if he wanted to try the next thing they were doing, but he was too scared. I pushed him a little (in a gentle way) because he's had lots of problems with this kind of thing before (being fearful of new experiences), but has always felt very proud of himself when he was able to go through with something, but he still was really scared, so after encouraging him a few times to re-join the class, I just let him sit with me and watch.

After that, we talked about how scared he was, and we agreed that he could go back and sit and watch the class until he felt comfortable joining the class. He thought this was a good idea, and I wanted him to be able to master this task of taking a class like this. I also know that he'd LOVE the class if he could let go of the fear, since they get to do things like jump on the trampoline, which is something he's asked to do a million times.

So tonight we were supposed to go back to the class. I had assured him that he didn't have to do anything but sit there and watch with me until he felt ready to try the class. We were supposed to go eat first (I had just picked him up from daycare and it was close to dinner time), then go to the class. When we arrived at the restaurant, he said he didn't want to go to the class, but wanted to eat, then play in the kids' play area at the mall instead. I said that we could come back to the play area after his gymnastics class, but that right now we needed to eat, then go to gymnastics. *He threw a HUGE tantrum*, screaming at the top of his lungs about not wanting to go to gymnastics and wanting to play at the mall instead.

I was torn. Do I make him go to gymnastics so he learns to follow through and not just have a tantrum and get his way all the time and to help him work through that fear in a gentle manner? Or do I say, well, this is supposed to be enjoyable, and if he's screaming and crying, it's not enjoyable, so let's just bag it? After much internal debate, I decided on the latter, though I have to admit I was quietly angry. We had already made the 30 minute drive to the location, and I had already registered for the class. *He was screaming and crying and insisting that he wanted to go out to eat and to play at the mall.* I said that going out to eat was part of going to gymnastics (which it was), and since we weren't going to gymnastics, we would just go home and eat. I figured that he also didn't deserve the treat of going out to dinner with the huge tantrum he was throwing. And, I had given him snacks in the car (an orange, a granola bar, and a string cheese), so it wasn't like he was dying of hunger.

So I proceeded to head home, and *he proceeded to scream, yell, and throw things from the back seat*. He was completely out of control, saying *"I hate you"* and that sort of thing---something I thought I wouldn't hear until he was a teenager---he also often tells me that when he's a grown-up, he will never see me again. It's hard to take.

Through all this, I kept my cool, and just ignored the screaming and concentrated on driving. Once we were off the highway, the screaming really intensified to an ear-shattering level. I told him that if he didn't stop, I would pull over and we'd have a time out in the car. He chucked something at my head, so I pulled over and stepped outside of the car to get a break from the screaming and give him a time out. I called my mom because I was on the verge of a meltdown myself at this point. I know calling my mom is a bad idea, but I really have very few options, and I don't often feel strong enough to deal with this all alone. (It would be great if I had a parent friend who has gone through this with their child that I could talk to and get some support from. All my friends have those calm "angel" children, and when I talk about my son's behavior, they are completely baffled, and I feel a little bit of judgment at times, like I am not disciplining him properly.)

A side note on time outs: I know many of you don't agree with time outs, and neither did I originally. I am still conflicted, but I do know that just talking to my son about things didn't work and doesn't work. Before I tried time outs, his behavior was continuing to escalate and get more and more violent. Since using time outs, life is still very difficult, but the aggression has decreased about 80%, I'd say. The other major problems are there, and I hate when time outs become a battle of wills (sometimes I have to gently restrain him in a chair if he refuses to stay or is hitting me), but I'd say that overall it's better than any alternative I've tried.

So back to where we were: My son is in the car, having a time out in his car seat, and I am standing outside, talking to my mom on the phone, trying to calm down. My mom is being decently supportive, or as good as she gets, I guess. My son is screaming his head off and hitting the windows. When I open the door a few minutes later to tell him that he needs to calm down before we will continue home, *he tells me that he has peed his pants.* *This is something he has started INTENTIONALLY doing on a regular basis during time outs*, even though I will let him go to the bathroom, if needed. It's sort of a "Well, you can put me in time out, but I am going to pee my pants" sort of thing, him trying to have some control or get me upset.

So, he peed his pants, completely soaked the car seat, and it also went through to the vehicle seat below and soaked it. My car and carseat were soaked in urine. Great. After 40+ minutes of screaming and throwing things, I had had it.

And I was PISSED. As a single mom, I don't have lots of money, and I try to take care of the possessions I do have. My car is a 1998 Honda, so nothing fancy, but it's in good condition without any damage or rust, and looks and smells nice (or DID). Since I can't just go out and buy something new, I want to take care of what I do have. I know possessions aren't the most important thing, but I do value cleanliness, and I don't want to drive around in a car that smells like a Port-A-Potty.

I needed to clean this up, and I immediately realized that this posed a huge problem. I have a Britax Frontier carseat, one I chose because it's supposed to be one of the safest on the market, one that allows a child to wear a harness until 80 lbs, which is supposed to be safer than a booster seat. Unfortunately, I didn't realize when I bought it that I'd be unable to install it myself. It really requires two people to install.

So, I have a car and carseat soaked with urine. To clean both adequately, I need to remove the carseat from the car. I have no one to help me. If I remove the carseat and can't get it back in, I can't go to work tomorrow or the counseling appointment with my son's therapist, which I desperately need!!!!

We went home and I told my son that we had to clean the carseat. I was completely angry the entire time, even though my son was trying to be "good"--helping me, trying to give me hugs and kisses. I was so angry, and I feel bad about being so insensitive to him, even mean. I am just at my wit's end with him. I always feel like I don't know how to react. If I act "normal" and not upset, does that mean that the peeing all over the car doesn't matter? I don't know. I am constantly confused and second-guessing myself when parenting this child.

I tried and tried to get that carseat back in after cleaning everything, but I just couldn't. I was literally drenched in sweat trying to pull the seatbelt with all my might to get it connected, but I couldn't do it. I JUST LOST IT. I was sobbing and crying, so angry that I am so dependent and incapable of doing things myself. I was so angry that my only alternative was to call my parents for help. I was so pissed off at my son for doing this. Of course this was not how I wanted to spend my evening. I had worked all day, I was exhausted, I had been in the car for almost an hour with a screaming child, and now I had pee all over everything, and I was incapable of putting the carseat back in. I just HAD IT.

My mom said she and my dad would come down to get the carseat back in. Keep in mind this is a three-hour round trip drive, so I knew they would be resentful about it. This is how they work: they do things for me, but they resent it and make me pay through being cold or critical towards me or complaining about things.

When we went back to our apartment after cleaning the car to the best of my ability, my son just had one tantrum after another. He threw things at me several times. He had a huge sliver in his finger, and when I tried to look at it and take it out with tweezers, he hit me in the face. We had time out after time out, as things spun out of control.

When my parents arrived, my mom immediately doted on my son like he was a poor victim and basically ignored me like I was some cruel, terrible person. There was no warmth or concern from her at all. I asked her if she could get him in bed and read him some stories, since it was 9pm, but she said, "No, we're not doing it that way. Give me your keys. I am going downstairs, and your dad and I will do it." I said I wanted to help my dad since it was my carseat and I wanted to see if there was any way I could've installed it myself, like something I missed that would've made it possible to do alone. (Nope. It definitely needed two people.) My mom said no. I said, in a calm voice, "I am an adult, and I'd like to be able to make my own decisions about this." She said, in a disgusted tone, "Well, you weren't acting like an adult a while ago. You were completely out of control." Thanks for the support, mom. They always act like my reactions to my son are so wrong and that he is just a poor little thing that has an awful mom. (Of course they beat me, or "spanked," as they like to call it, but I was an awful child, so that was ok, according to them. Ironically, they will say that beating me was wrong, but then suggest that if I just spanked my son I wouldn't have these problems. They are a big mass of contradictions.)

I KNOW that not breaking down and sobbing and losing it would be preferable. I know that keeping my cool would be better. I know it's not good for my son to see me practically hysterical. It's just that this is a CONSTANT thing, a daily battle, except for a few days here and there that are good, or even wonderful at times.

I know that many of you reading this might just think "Why don't you medicate him then? He's obviously driving you crazy." I don't think medication is some magical pill that will solve everything. The medication they recommended is Risperdal, and the doctor said it would reduce his aggression, but it wouldn't help with the defiance or other behavioral issues. Though he still does act out aggressively at times, it's on the decline. At this point, it's more the screaming, refusal to listen, tantrums, and disobeying direct requests and rules that is the main problem. I am not sure medication would help with that. I also fear what kind of side effects medication could have, and, to be honest, I feel like him being on medication is a failure on my part. I know that when I am the "perfect parent"--patient, calm, loving, strong, creative in my approach, unable to be swayed when disciplining, energetic, interactive--that he does pretty well. This doesn't work 100% of the time, but maybe 50-60% of the time. But I just get so worn down by his behavior and my work schedule and lack of sleep that I just can't keep it up.

We also continue to have problems with him being unkind to the cat. Sometimes it's just him picking her up constantly and not letting her go when she wants down. Sometimes it's flat out meanness to the cat, intentionally hurting her or being mean to her (chasing her, screaming at her). Of course this is NOT ok with me.

This is what happened yesterday. My son asked to go swimming. It was my day off, so this is something we often do--go swimming, then go out for pizza. I was in the shower getting ready for us to go, and when I came out, he was really angry and not acting right with the cat. He doesn't like her to go into the bedroom because she hides under the bed, which she does because she's trying to get away from him. I want him to allow her to go into the bedroom if she wants because I think she needs that chance to escape, so we had a battle about that that ended with him having time outs. Finally I saw that he had a cat scratch on his face, and it eventually came out that he was angry at her because she scratched him, and that she had scratched him because he was holding her and wouldn't let her go. He said he doesn't want her anymore. He also shoved her roughly into the bathtub on Monday. There was no water in it, but he did that to be mean to her because he didn't want her in the bathroom when he was going potty.

It's just always one thing after another with him. I don't want to get rid of our cat, but neither do I want her to get hurt. Everything is so overwhelming my head just spins.

I have been reading the book Transforming the Difficult Child that was recommended to me, and I am trying to implement the suggestions there. I also checked into the Sensory Processing Disorder that someone else mentioned, and he definitely has some of those symptoms (more wanting to be over-stimulated than under-stimulated), but I don't know how many he'd need to be considered significant.

I go to see his therapist tomorrow. I am just completely burned out.

Oh, he's also been having nightmares almost every night, screaming and completely terrified. Last night he didn't want to go to sleep because he was so afraid of the nightmares he might have. They mainly have to do with "bad guys" getting us, which is no surprise after we went through the attempted break-in in May.

Well, I should end here. Not sure if anyone has any suggestions, but I do appreciate the support. Things are so up and down with him. It scares me because I've been wanting to date (after being single for five years), and I just think who would want to put up with this? I don't even want to put up with this behavior, and I am his mom and love him. I feel like I can't take it anymore, but what are my options? There is no option other than to just keep going and trying to survive.

I am thinking about looking into a naturopath or acupuncture/acupressure and Chinese medicine. I really want to feel like I've explored ALL avenues.

Thanks for reading. I don't really believe in this (not much of a religious sort), but pray for me, or whatever your equivalent of that is!!!! I need all the help I can get. I feel like I am drowning here. I am just so burned out that I can't even be the kind of parent I want to be anymore. I am running on empty.

~Bisou


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## Marylizah

Oh, mama.





















to you and your DS.

My reaction on reading your post is this. On the gymnastics thing-- if he didn't want to go, and had never been and enjoyed it (ie, participated cheerfully) I would have just let it go when he started telling you loudly and clearly that he didn't want to go. And while I get why you linked dinner out with gymnastics, that just isn't a hill I would have been prepared to die on. I think his desire to eat and play at the mall was understandable and not really unreasonable, but that's just my opinion.

I'm so sorry about the peeing. And I can totally get your frustration and anger with the cleaning the carseat and getting it reinstalled. I don't have much advice on that at all. Just lots of sympathy.

On the cat issue-- your cat deserves to be safe. If your son really, really can't leave her alone, you need to find a new home for her. It sounds like this isn't a time in his life where he's able to control his impulses around her.

I wish I had a magic solution for you. You have my sympathy and my respect for being such an amazing mom throughout these difficult situations.

Much love and light to you.


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## mamarhu

I am PMing you.


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## Satori

Mama,

I understand how hard it is to admit your child has mental health issues, especially Bipolar but please try the Risperdal, it will effect his behaviors across the board and not just the aggression, you will see changes pretty much right away, were talking in a day or 2. It doesn't have to be for life but for now you need to get a handle on the behavior and the Risperdal will do that. I've been there, so have many mama's here advising you and once you start the meds you will wonder why the







didn't I start these years ago!? Its just night and day between medicated and unmedicated BP childen. You can be the best parent in the world but it doesn't really matter because meds are the only thing that are going to help at this point if nothing else to allow you to reset some behavior patterns ingrained in both of you at this point I'm betting. Believe me, I KNOW how scary meds are to think about. I resisted for 8 years and regret it, so much damage was done and it wasn't until I was near suicidal from the constant stress of raising a child straight from hell that I accepted that we needed the meds the Dr's had been tying to explain we needed for a couple years at that point. The meds allowed us to get a handle on things and start putting our family back together. We spent about 6 months on the Risperdal and added a mood stabilizer too along the way but it gave us time to chill out and regroup and then we were able to start exploring alternatives again. Now we found some alternative therapies that work but we still have the mood stabilizer on board but nothing is like the hell of a year ago thanks to meds.


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## Bisou

Hi Marylizah:

First of all, thanks for reading my book of a post and for replying.

I've spent a lot of time thinking today, talking with a therapist friend on the phone, and also had a visit with my son's therapist today (without him), and I totally agree with you about the gymnastics/dinner thing.

At the time, I had decided to take us out to dinner since we didn't have time to go home, but I figured since we weren't going to gymnastics that we should just go home to eat, and when he exploded into this huge tantrum, I didn't feel like it was right to then reward his tantrum, in a sense, by taking him to do what he wanted (dinner and playing at the mall), which was why he was tantruming in the first place. My therapist friend said that I could have given him a time out for tantruming, then take him to dinner and to play, like he wanted. I am not sure how I feel about that. I sort of like the idea, but also worry that then a tantrum still becomes a route by which he can get what he wants ("first, have a tantrum, then have a time out, then I get to do what I want!"). If this happened again, hopefully I could divert him away from having the tantrum before it happened so it wouldn't be an issue.

I do think that trying to push him into gymnastics was the wrong thing. He had been excited about it, and I knew he'd be really good at it and enjoy it once he got into it, but pushing him to try it wasn't a good move on my part. My therapist friend recommended that I focus on only making him to the things he HAS to do--like not hit/hurt me, not hurt the cat, not break things, not scream, go to daycare when I have to go to work--and everything else is negotiable. My son's therapist said that the only things I should discipline him for are actions that hurt himself or others or destroy property, though she has also included extreme tantrums as well. It definitely was a problem to have him screaming in the car like that last night, as I could hardly drive safely.

I think that my friend is right that I do need to focus on getting him to be successful at the things that are ESSENTIAL and really matter and trying to infuse our lives with as much joy as possible (dinner out and playing at the mall) the rest of the time.

It's so &#@!!!-ing hard!!!!!!!!!! I knew single parenting would be tough at times (exhausting, frustrating, lonely), but I never thought it would be THIS hard. I guess that's because I don't have a typical child.

I also agree with you about the cat. It's hard to know exactly when it crosses the line into the place where the cat needs to go. So far he has pulled her tail, pushed her into an empty bathtub, and picked her up and refused to put her down when she wanted down. He also bothers her a lot. I know a lot of his frustration is that she doesn't do what he wants her to do. I definitely don't want her to get hurt, but it's hard to know when enough is enough.

I feel so confused about what's the RIGHT thing to do so often with my son. Last night it was like I was having a million different arguments with myself in my own head. I also have a hard time transitioning out of these fights with him, like do I just act all nice like nothing ever happened? I feel so deficient as a parent, so incapable at times. I had pretty awful parenting as a child, so I see a lot of that coming out, which I HATE. Of course I hated being treated that way as a child, so when I hear some of the things coming out of my mouth, I think "What is WRONG with you? Why are you saying that?" So inside my mind during these conflicts is a big mess of confusion about what's right to do, sadness and anger about my situation and being alone, and self-criticism and even hatred towards myself for some of my reactions to his off-the-charts behavior.

I am trying to implement the suggestions from Transforming the Difficult Child, and I think it might work. I am just SO exhausted that it's hard to make all the changes that need to be made.

Thanks again for your reply!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Oh, mama.





















to you and your DS.

My reaction on reading your post is this. On the gymnastics thing-- if he didn't want to go, and had never been and enjoyed it (ie, participated cheerfully) I would have just let it go when he started telling you loudly and clearly that he didn't want to go. And while I get why you linked dinner out with gymnastics, that just isn't a hill I would have been prepared to die on. I think his desire to eat and play at the mall was understandable and not really unreasonable, but that's just my opinion.

I'm so sorry about the peeing. And I can totally get your frustration and anger with the cleaning the carseat and getting it reinstalled. I don't have much advice on that at all. Just lots of sympathy.

On the cat issue-- your cat deserves to be safe. If your son really, really can't leave her alone, you need to find a new home for her. It sounds like this isn't a time in his life where he's able to control his impulses around her.

I wish I had a magic solution for you. You have my sympathy and my respect for being such an amazing mom throughout these difficult situations.

Much love and light to you.


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## Bisou

Hi Jalilah:

I have a few more questions for you about SPD. I did ask my son's therapist about this today, and we did a checklist that she said she'd then review and talk to me about. She definitely didn't rule it out. Here are my questions. If you'd prefer to PM me, that would be ok too.

1) If you don't mind explaining more, can you tell me what sorts of symptoms your son has?

2) Is SPD considered on the autism spectrum, or is this something different?

3) What kinds of treatments do they do with your children? Is there anything I could try with him at home that might work?

4) What does life look like with your son? What do you try to do or to avoid? How do you deal with the aggression?

In reading a little about it and looking at some of the symptoms, my son fits a few things, but not others at all. He's very verbal (advanced in verbal skills) and has excellent motor skills. He does seem to like intense impact (wrestling, hitting things, being roughhoused with), he has recently started rubbing his hands and back against things a lot (like walls, tables, bathroom stalls--ick!) even when I ask him not to, he also likes to tap or hit tabletops, and often makes irritating noises. He is very overwhelmed by large groups of people, especially kids, and by new environments. However, he is a decent communicator and does interact with people well once he's used to them. He is ok with being touched by me and his grandparents but gets immediately furious if another child touches him. He has an extremely difficult time with doctor's exams and at the dentist; he will scream, cry, and even vomit because he gets himself so upset. He HATES having his teeth brushed, so I had to literally hold him down or sit on him (not hurting him, of course) for two years to brush his teeth. He got a cavity and was having signs of further tooth decay, so I had no choice. I had to brush his teeth. He has no sensitivities about clothes or foods, however.

I know you're not a medical expert, but having children with SPD, how does this sound to you?

After thinking about this, some of this may be a sensory issue, or it could just be a behavioral or mental health issue. I'm not an expert either. I do want to make sure that I have figured out what's really going on, as much as I can, before I start medicating him, if I even go that route.

Thanks so much for your reply, and my best to you and your children. Any parent dealing with children with mental or physical health issues deserves some kind of wonderful reward (a few million dollars? an all-expense paid trip to a resort? not sure exactly what the prize could be!), in my opinion!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jalilah* 
Dear Bisou,
I just found this thread and have tears in my eyes.
I can tell you are a wonderful and none of this is your fault.
I have not read all the replies so sorry if this has been brought up already, but it seems your son could have Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD). If this is the case, meds will not really help. He needs to see an Occupational Therapist ASAP. Unfortunately many child psychologists and doctors do not know anything about Sensory Processing Disorder. The good thing is your son is young so if he starts Occupational Therapy soon, he can be greatly helped and there are lots of things you can do for him.
Here is some information about SPD http://www.spdfoundation.net/aboutspd.html#lookslike

A good book is The Out of Sync Child
http://www.out-of-sync-child.com/

And the sensory Sensitive Child
http://www.sensorysensitivechild.com/index2.html

I agree with others who suggested possible Food Allergies. Allergies can also attribute to poor sensory processing and in your son's case it sounds like his is overly sensitive hence his strong reactions. I am not an
Occupational Therapist but my son did have SPD so I did a lot of research on it.
Good Luck Mama, my heart goes out to you.


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## Bisou

Hi Satori:

If you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about what your son was like as a baby and a young child--up to my son's age, which is four?

BPD has been suggested, but no one is giving me any clear "We think your son probably has X" at this point, even though I've asked. I know they sometimes don't diagnose kids this young.

If you'd prefer to PM me, that would be ok too. I am just wondering if my son has many similar behaviors to what your son had at this age, though I know every child is different.

Another poster suggested Sensory Processing Disorder, so I am looking into that as well.

Thanks for your reply and for reading my posts. It does really mean a lot to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Mama,

I understand how hard it is to admit your child has mental health issues, especially Bipolar but please try the Risperdal, it will effect his behaviors across the board and not just the aggression, you will see changes pretty much right away, were talking in a day or 2. It doesn't have to be for life but for now you need to get a handle on the behavior and the Risperdal will do that. I've been there, so have many mama's here advising you and once you start the meds you will wonder why the







didn't I start these years ago!? Its just night and day between medicated and unmedicated BP childen. You can be the best parent in the world but it doesn't really matter because meds are the only thing that are going to help at this point if nothing else to allow you to reset some behavior patterns ingrained in both of you at this point I'm betting. Believe me, I KNOW how scary meds are to think about. I resisted for 8 years and regret it, so much damage was done and it wasn't until I was near suicidal from the constant stress of raising a child straight from hell that I accepted that we needed the meds the Dr's had been tying to explain we needed for a couple years at that point. The meds allowed us to get a handle on things and start putting our family back together. We spent about 6 months on the Risperdal and added a mood stabilizer too along the way but it gave us time to chill out and regroup and then we were able to start exploring alternatives again. Now we found some alternative therapies that work but we still have the mood stabilizer on board but nothing is like the hell of a year ago thanks to meds.


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## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Hi Satori:

If you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about what your son was like as a baby and a young child--up to my son's age, which is four?

BPD has been suggested, but no one is giving me any clear "We think your son probably has X" at this point, even though I've asked. I know they sometimes don't diagnose kids this young.

If you'd prefer to PM me, that would be ok too. I am just wondering if my son has many similar behaviors to what your son had at this age, though I know every child is different.

Another poster suggested Sensory Processing Disorder, so I am looking into that as well.

Thanks for your reply and for reading my posts. It does really mean a lot to me.


I highly recommend this book, page after page you will see your son in here.


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## karlin

I haven't read the whole thread, but I was curious what kind of diet you feed your son? Do you eat out a lot? Does he eat a lot of fruit? Sugar? Grains? Some kids are so sensitive to foods that it really does affect their behavior. My son is crazy sensitive to corn syrup (and corn in general). He goes from being mostly rational to being almost impossible. He won't look at us and can't sit still. He has a hard time controlling his own behavior. He gets that way when tired and hungry too....and four was his worst age (just to give you a little hope...5 was better, and 6 is awesome so far!). You may want to make sure he's fed only whole foods with an emphasis on protein and fat. I know that sounds contrary to conventional wisdom, but low fat diets are linked with depression and irritable behaviors. We all know how much better we feel after we eat protein. Try to reserve sugar only for special occasions.

Also, have you ever tried just not doing time outs? It seems he really, really feels he needs some control, and time outs really don't foster those kinds of feelings, you know? I know talking and asking doesn't work, but neither do time outs. If they did, we wouldn't have to keep doing them over and over. Find a way to get through it so you can make the tantrum a teaching moment when he's done. Try going into another room if you have to, or try empathizing with him, "You had a rough day." "You are really mad at me." Maybe try being silly if it doesn't offend him. Just do what it takes to not get in a power struggle. Be as gentle as possible, but do not allow the cat to be abused, obviously. Your son needs to have some control in his life, so find ways to give it to him. Give him choices, let him help you cook (if possible), let him feed the cat...etc.

Most of all







. I've only been through a tiny bit of what you're going through. Hang in there! I'm hoping your DS can outgrow that stage as mine did.


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## wytchywoman

Wow, I just read this whole thread and am in awe of you mama!!!! I'm just going to describe my experiences and then throw in my 2 cents. Hopefully something in there might help out.
Both of my kids are on the autism spectrum, DS 1 has Aspergers and DS 2 has autism. Both can be aggressive but DS 1 had major issues with aggression and tantruming when he was younger and still has issues with aggression with me and his brother. Although DS 1 wasn't as explosive as your DS, I found myself nodding my head a bit and saying "mmm hmm, yup, DS 1 did that too". Right down to injuring the family cat.








I too was resistant to medication for a really, really, really long time. It's been so long now that I can't really remember what the final straw was, but I finally consented to a trial of an anti-depressant ( Wellbutrin I think?) and it was a goddessend for quite some time. DS 1 has some pretty major medical problems that have made it really hard for him to stay on meds. I know that sounds strange but he can do ok on a med for a while and then suddenly start puking because of it. His body develops a resistance or allergy? to it after awhile. We still haven't figured out what is going on with him medically. the one thing I did want to relay to you is that after I tried my son on the meds, he told me that for the first time he felt relatively "normal" and wished we had tried them sooner. Struggling to maintain was such a toll on him, and for once he could finally relax and know that there wasn't going to be a huge amount of effort and strain to be able to interact inappropriately with others. You are right in that meds are not a magic panacea. They aren't suddenly going to "fix" things. But what they can do is eliminate ONE piece of the pie that is this whole entire drama that causes problems for your son. By eliminating that one piece of the pie, you and he both might find that other solutions such as art therapy, Feingold diet, etc....will be more successful.
I'm also a Special Education teacher. One thing that you need to keep in mind is what you plan on doing in regards to school. While he has been able to keep it together for the most part during daycare, I suspect school is going to be another ball park. School is stressful. He will have kids in his space, teacher in his space, making demands of him all day long. Will he be able to cope with that? If you plan on having him attend a school, you really need to be in close contact with their Special Ed department prior to registration, explaining what has been going on. The district my DS 2 attends has "choices" classrooms that focus on kids with behavioral needs and the classrooms are very positive and the kids do quite well there.
As far as your parents go, I have a set of toxic parents too. They suck.







Is there anyway you can start slowly reducing your reliance on them? I know that we have never met but I wouldn't mind PMing you with my cellie number if you ever needed someone to vent to. My kids are certainly no angels and you'll get no shock or judgement from me. My guess is there are probably more than a few mamas here who would be willing to do the same. I think the more you can reduce their involvement in your life, the easier it will eventually become for you. (and the next time you need help with the car seat, pop DS in a seat belt in the back and drive to your closest police or fire station. I bet you anything you can get some hot, hunky, beefcake dude in a uniform to help you out and you can admire the eye candy while he does the work...well ok, the eye candy is not a for sure thing but I bet it put a smile on your face







). ((((((((((HUGE HUGS))))))) to you and your DS.


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## Bisou

Hi Karlin:

I haven't yet looked into the Feingold diet, which has been recommended to me, but I am planning to do so. I've been in a state of constant research about all this lately!

We are vegetarian and eat an 80-90% organic diet. I avoid anything with high fructose corn syrup, artificial colors, or other artificial additives. We do eat out a few times a week though, but I haven't noticed any particular behavioral changes around certain foods.

I think we probably do eat too many refined carbs, like pasta and pizza. I always buy whole wheat/whole grain breads, but if we go out for pizza, obviously that's not whole wheat.

Evaluating his diet is on my to-do list for sure.

Thanks for the reply!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karlin* 
I haven't read the whole thread, but I was curious what kind of diet you feed your son? Do you eat out a lot? Does he eat a lot of fruit? Sugar? Grains? Some kids are so sensitive to foods that it really does affect their behavior. My son is crazy sensitive to corn syrup (and corn in general). He goes from being mostly rational to being almost impossible. He won't look at us and can't sit still. He has a hard time controlling his own behavior. He gets that way when tired and hungry too....and four was his worst age (just to give you a little hope...5 was better, and 6 is awesome so far!). You may want to make sure he's fed only whole foods with an emphasis on protein and fat. I know that sounds contrary to conventional wisdom, but low fat diets are linked with depression and irritable behaviors. We all know how much better we feel after we eat protein. Try to reserve sugar only for special occasions.

Also, have you ever tried just not doing time outs? It seems he really, really feels he needs some control, and time outs really don't foster those kinds of feelings, you know? I know talking and asking doesn't work, but neither do time outs. If they did, we wouldn't have to keep doing them over and over. Find a way to get through it so you can make the tantrum a teaching moment when he's done. Try going into another room if you have to, or try empathizing with him, "You had a rough day." "You are really mad at me." Maybe try being silly if it doesn't offend him. Just do what it takes to not get in a power struggle. Be as gentle as possible, but do not allow the cat to be abused, obviously. Your son needs to have some control in his life, so find ways to give it to him. Give him choices, let him help you cook (if possible), let him feed the cat...etc.

Most of all







. I've only been through a tiny bit of what you're going through. Hang in there! I'm hoping your DS can outgrow that stage as mine did.


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## Bisou

*SERIOUSLY wytchywoman, I completely LOVE you for that line about the beefcake firefighter! You gave me a good laugh, and those are often few and far between for me!*

I'd love some other people to call and chat with, especially in my times of distress when I feel like I am just going to absolutely lose it (and sometimes, unfortunately, I do!).

There have been a few RARE times when I've called my mom and she's said the right thing, which was essentially giving me words of encouragement that I could do this and that I was strong and capable. It gives me a little dose of strength that allows me to suck it up and go back at it. But then, more often, actually, she will be critical, even cruel, and it's so hard, like "What? You were nice and helpful last time! What happened?" I am fairly sure my mom has some mental issues of her own, depression at the least. Whenever I am having problems with my son, she talks about how terrible it is for HER and how hard her life is because of what I am going through with my son. She's even said it's HARDER for her than for me. What????? So frustrating.

I think single parents need like an emergency support number they can call, like a hotline, whether that's for emotional support or even "Help! I can't get the carseat in! Can you send someone over???" Man, that would be soooo nice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
and the next time you need help with the car seat, pop DS in a seat belt in the back and drive to your closest police or fire station. I bet you anything you can get some hot, hunky, beefcake dude in a uniform to help you out and you can admire the eye candy while he does the work...well ok, the eye candy is not a for sure thing but I bet it put a smile on your face







). ((((((((((HUGE HUGS))))))) to you and your DS.


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## Bisou

Side note:

My son and I had a great day today! Granted, I didn't spend much time with him because he went to daycare this morning, but had about an hour with him this morning and three hours tonight before he conked out in the car on our way home. He was completely compliant, kind, and just great.

I've been checking out some of the recommended books (recommended by posters on MDC), like The Explosive Child, on Amazon. It's hard to know which will be most helpful to me/us at this stage. I am reading Transforming the Difficult Child, but the approach is SOOO complicated, even though I think a lot of it is good. It asks you to do this complicated credit/reward system for all their behaviors. I just don't know that my son will be able to completely get it.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the new replies.


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## laila2

I support you in the medications based on the fact that my ds has tremendous tantrums, once three times a day, and it seems very minimal to what you are going through. I do not know how you function. You are doing your best.


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## Bisou

Thanks Laila!

I want to make sure we explore all options before I try medications, as I know that they can have some very serious side effects. There are also some conditions for which I believe medications would be contraindicated, so I don't want to do anything that would make things worse! I am definitely considering that as an option though, if all else fails.


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## Pookietooth

Here's a link to a freind's blog about recovery from meds:
http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/recovery-stories/


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## Bisou

Thanks for that. I will check that out!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
Here's a link to a freind's blog about recovery from meds:
http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/recovery-stories/


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## Bisou

Hi Jalilah:

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for mentioning sensory processing disorder. After reading about this online, and noticing some of the things that my son does that are similar, I mentioned this to my son's therapist and we did a screening questionaire. He tested as abnormal in several areas, especially in sensory-seeking behaviors. There are lots of things that he does that previously I just saw as annoying that now seem like they might be something different than just an annoying behavior.

Is this (SPD) considered a form of autism, or is this a separate condition?

Thanks again for mentioning this possibility. I know this might not be the answer or ALL of the answer, but I do want to feel like I've looked into ALL options before I start giving him a possibly brain-altering medication (not that I'd be against that if it was what he really needed!).

Thanks again.


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## unschoolinmom

Bisou,

I don't think our OT thought it was a form of autism, but autism can be linked with it. My cihldren do not land on the autistic spectrum and just live with SPD. I'm very glad that your son's therapist was able to help you get some answers. Like Jalilah said, I would get The Out of Sync Child and The Out of Sync Child Has Fun.

Good luck and hugs to you!


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## Bisou

Hi Unschoolin:

I can't remember if you were the first one to mention SPD, so if so, the thanks go to you as well for getting me to look into this further!

Since this is new to me, I wasn't sure if that was considered part of the autistic spectrum or not. My son doesn't have any of the problems with relating to people that I've heard autistic kids can have (I'm no autism expert---so no offense to anyone if I've got it wrong!) but I know sensory problems are a big part of autism.

We will be doing further testing to determine if SPD is part of what's going on for him.

Things I've noticed that he does include always being extremely active, especially when he's hyped up (whether agitated, excited, nervous, etc), jumping off and banging into things all the time, running his hands along the walls (not constantly, but happens particularly when we are in public) or rubbing/pushing his back against walls, lots of kicking his feet and legs (especially against hard objects like floors, benches, chair legs, etc), and lots of hitting or tapping the table. This isn't something he does 100% of the time, and I just attributed it to extremely high energy.

There are also issues with sound, like he likes to have music on *extremely* loud; otherwise, he says he can't hear it. Of course I worry about his hearing, so I don't turn it up that loud. He also often acts like he doesn't hear me, and I used to think this was completely intentional, but now I am thinking that it might not be intentional all the time. If he's listening to something, I can talk to him or call his name, but I might have to turn it off to really get his attention. It's like he can only hear the one thing he's focused on at the time.

As a baby, he ALWAYS wanted to be rocked or jiggled. Constantly. He was very cranky. Putting him to sleep often required dancing with him in a baby wrap or carrier for literally HOURS. Seriously. An hour would be a regular amount of time to get him to sleep, and this would drag to 2-3 hours of dancing/jiggling/bouncing at times. We just thought he was a fussy baby.

It took me 6 months to breastfeed because every time I tried to breastfeed him he would scream, hit me (as much as a newborn can---more like flailing towards me), push me away, and arch his back. He acted like breastfeeding was the worst thing in the world. (However, I didn't give up and once we hit the 6 month mark, he became a breast-feeding addict and stayed that way!







)

But reflecting on his behaviors, I definitely see strong sensory-seeking behaviors. His therapist has always pointed out that he needs strong impact on his joints, like hitting and pushing things, wrestling, and jumping off things. But I think she was thinking of sensory issues as being more OVERLY sensitive to clothing textures, textures of food, noise, etc. He is more the opposite of that. He also likes being squished, like if I put pillows on him and lie on top of them or even just give him a big squishing bear hug.

I know there are probably "normal" kids that like this kind of stuff too.

He does seem to be sensitive about being around lots of activity and loud noise though, like gymnastics (the origin of our most recent major tantrum). He does act like he is almost so overwhelmed, he can't handle it. I had always attributed that to fear of unknown situations, but I am seeing that in possibly a different light now, like maybe sensory-wise it was just too much for him.

I am not saying this is the complete answer; we don't know yet, but I am just looking at things through this lens now, and it does give me some food for thought!

*Anyone who has kids with sensory issues, what kinds of things do the occupational therapists do with your kids in sessions? I am just curious.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
Bisou,

I don't think our OT thought it was a form of autism, but autism can be linked with it. My cihldren do not land on the autistic spectrum and just live with SPD. I'm very glad that your son's therapist was able to help you get some answers. Like Jalilah said, I would get The Out of Sync Child and The Out of Sync Child Has Fun.

Good luck and hugs to you!


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## unschoolinmom

Yes, my son is also sensory-seeking.

Kids with autism can have sensory issues, but kids with SPD aren't always autistic. My two aren't at all. However, because of the diagnosis, they had their hearing checked. It came out fine.

With my son, the OT worked on deep pressure. There is also a "brushing program". He loved it. She would take a big bouncy ball (medicine ball) and lay it on his back while she pressed into it. It soothed him a lot, so I started doing the same with our couch cushions.

Deep pressure is very important for sensory-seeking children. I have tons of videos of my son now and he's still just as active. He was doing cartwheels in the kitchen today, mostly for the impact of it. When he was a baby, he needed to be swaddled tight, hugged tight and tended to be very unaware of personal space. He clung to me a lot and would press his body against mine. He actually still does.

Now, taking him to the mall or other crowded places can pose a problem because it's just overstimulating. He panics, feels out of control and that scares him, so he freaks with tantrums, screaming and crying. What I started to do was let him take his CD player so he could put on his music and block out the sound.

The OT helped him later with the stimulus and though he still has his moments, i.e. the mall during peak season, then I just avoid taking him. He bounces off the walls still, but has more reserve after working with the OT and it's also a lot to do with age.

At your son's age, my son was beyond out of control and was placed on Risperdal. But now at 4 almost 5, he's able to control himself and talk about what scares him.

The OTs are great. They give the child the stimulus they need in a much more controlled setting, while at the same time, teaching them to handle situations that could be stressful with better control.

As for what the therapist thought about the sensitivity to texture, etc. You're right, she was on the opposite side of the spectrum of SPD. My two children are like that. They are yin and yang.

My daughter has SPD but is tactile defensive (what your therapist thought for your son) and my son has SPD but is sensory-seeking (like what your son is displaying).


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## Bisou

Wow! Your son sounds a LOT like my son! He has definitely been extremely out of control for the last year or so, which you probably know since I think you've read a lot of this thread.

My son can get really upset in stressful situations like that too, especially where there are lots of people, though sometimes he does fine.

He definitely loves getting squished, like your son does, and I've even squished him with the exercise ball I have at home, just as a random thing.

So with the OT, are they basically just giving him that sensory input that he seeks, which you then also replicate at home?

Also, is he still on the Risperdal? Did they know he had these sensory issues when he was given Risperdal? I've heard that medication isn't good (or at least not necessary) for kids with sensory disorders?

This is all new to me, so thanks for the info!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
Yes, my son is also sensory-seeking.

Kids with autism can have sensory issues, but kids with SPD aren't always autistic. My two aren't at all. However, because of the diagnosis, they had their hearing checked. It came out fine.

With my son, the OT worked on deep pressure. There is also a "brushing program". He loved it. She would take a big bouncy ball (medicine ball) and lay it on his back while she pressed into it. It soothed him a lot, so I started doing the same with our couch cushions.

Deep pressure is very important for sensory-seeking children. I have tons of videos of my son now and he's still just as active. He was doing cartwheels in the kitchen today, mostly for the impact of it. When he was a baby, he needed to be swaddled tight, hugged tight and tended to be very unaware of personal space. He clung to me a lot and would press his body against mine. He actually still does.

Now, taking him to the mall or other crowded places can pose a problem because it's just overstimulating. He panics, feels out of control and that scares him, so he freaks with tantrums, screaming and crying. What I started to do was let him take his CD player so he could put on his music and block out the sound.

The OT helped him later with the stimulus and though he still has his moments, i.e. the mall during peak season, then I just avoid taking him. He bounces off the walls still, but has more reserve after working with the OT and it's also a lot to do with age.

At your son's age, my son was beyond out of control and was placed on Risperdal. But now at 4 almost 5, he's able to control himself and talk about what scares him.

The OTs are great. They give the child the stimulus they need in a much more controlled setting, while at the same time, teaching them to handle situations that could be stressful with better control.

As for what the therapist thought about the sensitivity to texture, etc. You're right, she was on the opposite side of the spectrum of SPD. My two children are like that. They are yin and yang.

My daughter has SPD but is tactile defensive (what your therapist thought for your son) and my son has SPD but is sensory-seeking (like what your son is displaying).


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## unschoolinmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Wow! Your son sounds a LOT like my son! He has definitely been extremely out of control for the last year or so, which you probably know since I think you've read a lot of this thread.

My son can get really upset in stressful situations like that too, especially where there are lots of people, though sometimes he does fine.

He definitely loves getting squished, like your son does, and I've even squished him with the exercise ball I have at home, just as a random thing.

So with the OT, are they basically just giving him that sensory input that he seeks, which you then also replicate at home?

Also, is he still on the Risperdal? Did they know he had these sensory issues when he was given Risperdal? I've heard that medication isn't good (or at least not necessary) for kids with sensory disorders?

This is all new to me, so thanks for the info!









Oh yes. The OT will give you exercises to do at home and most likely will recommend those books that also have great exercises. He was diagnosed with SPD when he started the Risperdal. I hated it but he needed it for his aggression (he got kicked out of daycare at 2 years old). The worse part of that medication was that every 6 months he had to get blood work to check his liver as it's known to damage liver function.

Luckily I got him off of it myself with the help of the OT and becoming much more proactive with working with him during off times at home. My daughter never took Risperdal.


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## Bisou

I was recommended Risperdal for my son, but I've been fighting it. Actually, even though things can still be pretty bad, his aggression has actually gone WAY down from where it used to be. Does he tantrum and get totally out of control? Yes. Does he still hit or throw things? Yes, sometimes. But he used to try with all his might to hurt me as much as possible, and he doesn't really do that anymore, and neither is he hurting other kids like he was two years ago at 2 1/2. He once literally took grabbed another child by the head and out of NOWHERE (completely unprovoked!!!!) started smashing her head against the wall as hard as possible, slamming it against the wall about 3-4 times as his teachers and I all ran across the room trying to get to him. He was about 2 1/2 at the time, and it was completely horrifying, like what kind of monster am I raising? He used to frequently, also sometimes out of nowhere, slam his head into my face. He split my lip open more than once, gave me at least one black eye, and I am fairly sure he broke my nose.

(*SIDE NOTE/QUESTION*: Could all that aggression/hitting/head butting be sensory seeking behavior? He started this at around 18 months, and I used to think "Why does he want to hurt me when he is only 18 freaking months old????? He is just a baby!!! This makes no sense!!!!!")

We have come a LONG way since then. I didn't used to do time outs at that age because I wanted to go a more gentle route and talk to him about things, but that totally didn't work. Time outs don't necessarily work either, though it's getting better. This is all a work in progress!

I have been working on the concepts in Transforming Your Difficult Child and he recommends giving your child points/credits for doing a good job in time out (staying put and not screaming during the TO). Right now, this is actually working really well! He seems completely shocked that he could be praised for doing a good job in time out, and the positive bent of that is really affecting him, like instead of being "bad" and in time out, he can be doing a great job and getting praised for being in time out.

Anyway, that's sort of a side note, but my main point was that *his aggression has gone WAY down, like maybe 80% reduction, from what it used to be a year or two ago.* Now when he hits, which is less than once a week, sometimes only every few weeks, it's relatively mild and more of a symbolic action ("I am MAD!") than something that seems intended to hurt me as much as possible. Whenever I feel completely desperate with his tantrums, screaming, and generally making life miserable, I do try to remember how far we've come and that he has made SOME progress.









He has also had a hard time making friends with other kids (even though he really LIKES other kids and other kids usually like him too). Usually, if a child gets in his space or wants to hug him, he is NOT ok with that and almost views it as an assault. He will even get completely pissed just because another child wants to hug him. He is not generally ok with other kids touching him, though he is fairly touchy with me. However, recently he has made friends with another little girl at school, and I was shocked to see them hugging and playing together, rolling around on the floor, or sitting closely together looking at books. This is some good progress too!

I just want to make sure I recognize the good days as well as the hard days.

That said, what the heck is going on in our society or environment that sooooo many kids are autistic, ADD/ADHD, etc? Some people say that kids are being diagnosed more often now, but I don't remember so many kids having these problems when I was growing up. I know that's a whole different can of worms I am opening, but I can't help but think that there is something going on in our environment (too many chemicals? vaccines???? who knows?) that is causing this for kids.

I did vaccinate my son when he was younger because I thought it was the right thing to do to keep him healthy, but he had a SEVERE reaction to pertussis. That scared me and made me research vaccines more, and then I wished I had read a little more on it in the beginning. It's just hard because for every seemingly reputable article about how vaccines are bad, it seems like there are just as many saying the opposite.

I know I am bringing up lots of different topics here, so sorry for being all over the board, but I am just bringing up everything that's popping up in my mind.

Thanks again for the reply! Love to all my fellow MDC mamas.









~Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
Oh yes. The OT will give you exercises to do at home and most likely will recommend those books that also have great exercises. He was diagnosed with SPD when he started the Risperdal. I hated it but he needed it for his aggression (he got kicked out of daycare at 2 years old). The worse part of that medication was that every 6 months he had to get blood work to check his liver as it's known to damage liver function.

Luckily I got him off of it myself with the help of the OT and becoming much more proactive with working with him during off times at home. My daughter never took Risperdal.


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## MilkyMuse

I just finished reading this thread, and what a year you've had, mama! I was so happy to see that things have gotten better and so many people have given you such great information.

Like several others, some of your son's behavior reminds me of my oldest ds, who just turned 7. He was a very intense, high-need baby, who I wore or held most of the time and co-slept with. When he became a toddler he was into *everything* -- I quickly learned to baby-safe my house for my own sanity, including putting a latch on the front screen door because my ds thought it was great fun to push it open and run outside. He was (and still is) big for his age, which made those times when he got too too rough or wild harder to deal with, not least of all because other people expected better behavior from a child who *looked* 3 or 4 but was really only 2. Between about ages 3 and 5 I often felt like "that mom" at the park and playgroups; that was the most frustrating period. He wasn't constantly obnoxious, but he was a bundle of energy, constantly moving from one thing to the next and unable to sit still long enough to finish a meal. It really took all of my energy, focus and patience to keep him on an even keel and not lose my temper (although of course sometimes I did.) I sometimes had to carry him to the car kicking and screaming; he became easily overwhelmed with frustration and no amount of patience or understanding helped much at those times. It was my experience too that he was at his worst around me. My mom told me what many others have said, that he felt safe letting loose around me.

By the time he was 4 I had decided to homeschool him. I was certain he would be diagnosed with ADD or ADHD (at least) and was very opposed to medicating him. I ultimately decided it wasn't of much value to me to know that Dr. X thought he had Disorder Y and chose not to have him evaluated. I decided that if his behavior made homeschooling impossible or began to interfere with our everyday lives to an unacceptable extent, I would revisit the decision, and I still feel it was the right one.

One thing that really helped me, of which I was reminded again by moms who mentioned SPD, was reading "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. I thought it might be a bit of a warm-and-fuzzy approach because it focuses on avoiding triggers -- just like for children who need lots of physical contact, or become quickly overwhelmed in crowds; in fact these are some of the examples -- and understanding how to notice warning signs. It also helps you (the parent) figure out your own level of "spiritedness" and discusses how that might help or hinder your relationship with your child. Some of the characteristics of spiritedness include energy, intensity, and sensitivity. The book includes a really helpful section on introverts vs. extroverts and how they have different needs. For example, I learned that while I'm an introvert (meaning I need time to myself to recharge my batteries), my ds is an extrovert (meaning he needs to be around other people to recharge his batteries). Either personality type can learn to increase their comfort level in situations that make them uncomfortable (i.e., an introvert participating more in school or an extrovert playing quietly in his room) *but* they really need to be able to spend some time in their comfort zone every day in order to feel good. Realizing this made a huge difference, because I now recognize the need for myself to have alone time, or my ds to play with others.

Time outs usually did not work with him, because I had to sit there next to him and make sure he stayed. I quickly decided it wasn't worth the trouble most of the time and instead focused my energy on having him "atone" -- if he hurt someone, he needed to make them feel better; if he made a mess, he needed to help clean it up.

I am certainly not saying that this book solved all my problems; however it was reassuring to realize there were other kids who had a meltdown if their favorite shirt was in the laundry, or refused a bedtime story if the one he wanted to hear was unavailable. Most importantly, it helped me understand that *I am not responsible for his reactions*. I used to take it very personally when he got upset, and really wanted him to be happy all the time. It seems in retrospect that this often made him more negative, and when I learned to avoid trigger situations and work *with* his spiritedness rather than trying to *make* him do things, we got along a lot better and he was a lot more pleasant to live with. It made the tantrums easier to deal with because they became a lot less frequent.

He still has tons of energy, and daily physical activity is an absolute must for him. Especially when he has been sitting for awhile, when he gets up he is like a whirlwind. He walks back and forth while telling me things, sometimes seeming like he is acting out his story. He is constantly touching things to explore them, running his hands along the wall, drumming on the table, tapping his toes. At mealtimes he sits, then stands, then sits, then leans back in his chair, then puts his legs and bottom off to one side of the chair, then the other, and so on until he's done eating. When he was still doing this at age 4 my dh was worried and thought this was very weird, that we shouldn't allow it (ha-ha!). I was unwilling to spend mealtimes fighting with ds and refused to try to *make* him sit, preferring to focus instead on the "biggies." He still does this, and the only rule I made is that he has to take bites over his plate and clean up any mess he makes. It's working pretty well, and I think everyone feels better just accepting the way he is and not letting his need for movement -- which really is a small thing, in the scheme of things -- bother us or disturb our mealtimes.

Ds has become a kind, loving child who occasionally still has his moments -- don't we all? Things have really gotten better as he's gotten older. I know I am more relaxed in general because I have been a mother for awhile. Again, looking back, I realize that during the most difficult times I was working part-time, and while I'm certainly not passing judgement on employed mothers, it's been much easier to deal with my LOs since I started staying home full-time. It's been my experience that children really need clear expectations and consistent consequences, and of course that's easiest when you're with them most of the time. When you have to work, you have to work, though, and I think that makes it even more important to be consistent in the limited time you have together. I don't necessarily mean punishment, because I think it's very easy to become overly punitive in all of one's dealings with a child and want to punish over every little thing. However, natural consequences are a great teacher, such as getting scratched or bitten by a cat after they wouldn't stop pestering it, or having their favorite shirt not get washed because it was left on the floor instead of being put in the hamper. There are probably lots of better examples...

I had another thought: might your ds enjoy helping you make dinner and do whatever other chores you need to do in the evening? My kids always act up when they need attention. Sometimes just including them in what I'm doing is enough to defuse the situation.

Anyway good luck! I wrote a much longer message than I intended but hopefully there is something useful for you. I hope everything keeps getting better!


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## heartandhands

Hi Bisou,

I have been following your thread but not posting until today. I'm really proud of you. That's really all I wanted to say. It isnt easy to "defy" what the medical community/"experts" are telling you. However, you followed your motherly instincts like you did when you persevered with nursing. You worked through hell for the first 6 months bc you knew it was the best thing for you son. You didnt just put him on medication (not that I am categorically rejecting the notion of medication bc yes, sometimes, RARELY, it IS necessary) bc the powers that be recommended it. You havent had a lot of support and yet you've managed to do what a lot of mothers would not have had the determination and vision and confidence to do. I applaud you for that.

I was at one time a while back, going to message and ask about whether you vaxed your son and whether your son ever had any reactions but I see you've mentioned that he had a severe reaction to pertussis. I think that is probably relevant but you'll never probably get any medical professional to validate that theory.

I am also so so sorry that your son was abused by his daycare provider and that you've had so many stressful situations early in his young life. Surely that stuff is all relevant too. I think these types of issues are so multifactorial, not that I am an expert, but it just makes sense to me.

It warmed my heart to read your recent posts about the improvements in your son's behaviour. You have worked really hard. You should be so proud of yourself.

I just wanted to send you a hug and say that for what it's worth, I am impressed with your fortitude and strength.

Sincerely,

Heartandhands


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## Bisou

Hi Milky Muse:

Wow! What a great post! Finally, someone who writes as much as I do.









Your son does sound very similar to my son in a lot of ways, and I've definitely had many of the same struggles and frustrations that you've had.

You mentioned that you didn't have your son evaluated for anything, but now that I know more about SPD, it sounds like your son could have some of the sensory seeking behaviors that can be part of the disorder for some kids. I am not an expert by any means, as this is all new for us, but one thing that sounds positive to me about SPD is that they don't generally medicate for this, but instead use occupational therapy, teaching you and your child techniques to calm him/her down. My son's therapist has recommended that he be referred for evaluation, so hopefully this will help us!

You mentioned staying home with your children, and I wish I didn't have to work! Unfortunately, I am a single mom. My son's dad took off during the pregnancy, and he doesn't pay any child support because I just don't want that negative influence in my son's life. He hasn't done a single thing for us, and I don't want my son going through the pain of being constantly disappointed by someone who doesn't really give a crap.









I've thought a LOT lately about how I wished I could be a stay-at-home mom, but there's just no way that's even close to possible. I guess I need to get out there and start dating! LOL.

The book you recommended is on my list of books to buy when I get paid next, so I am definitely going to check it out! Thanks for the recommendation and the detailed explanation.









I have tried things like having my son help with dinner, but sometimes that can be a really frustrating experience as he will get food ALL OVER everything--counters, cabinets, floors, walls--because he isn't listening that he can't take the whisk out and wave it around or hit it roughly on the side of the bowl, flicking stuff everywhere. I try to be patient, I really do, but his high level of energy and wildness makes it hard for us to do those sorts of things unless he's in a calmer mode because he just drives me CRAZY.

We have had a few better days this week now that I am trying to implement the ideas in the book Transforming Your Difficult Child. The other day we were going to our car (parked in the big underground garage in our building) and my son was over looking at his bike. I said, "Come on! Let's go!" and he immediately came over to the car (something he usually doesn't do), and got immediately into his carseat (something he ALSO usually doesn't do), and then sat very very calmly, actually completely still (again, not a normal thing), and he said, "Look, mom, I am being calm! I am earning my points!" It was sooo cute!

There are always ups and downs with him. I just hope we will start to get more UPS than downs in the coming weeks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkyMuse* 
I just finished reading this thread, and what a year you've had, mama! I was so happy to see that things have gotten better and so many people have given you such great information.

Like several others, some of your son's behavior reminds me of my oldest ds, who just turned 7. He was a very intense, high-need baby, who I wore or held most of the time and co-slept with. When he became a toddler he was into *everything* -- I quickly learned to baby-safe my house for my own sanity, including putting a latch on the front screen door because my ds thought it was great fun to push it open and run outside. He was (and still is) big for his age, which made those times when he got too too rough or wild harder to deal with, not least of all because other people expected better behavior from a child who *looked* 3 or 4 but was really only 2. Between about ages 3 and 5 I often felt like "that mom" at the park and playgroups; that was the most frustrating period. He wasn't constantly obnoxious, but he was a bundle of energy, constantly moving from one thing to the next and unable to sit still long enough to finish a meal. It really took all of my energy, focus and patience to keep him on an even keel and not lose my temper (although of course sometimes I did.) I sometimes had to carry him to the car kicking and screaming; he became easily overwhelmed with frustration and no amount of patience or understanding helped much at those times. It was my experience too that he was at his worst around me. My mom told me what many others have said, that he felt safe letting loose around me.

By the time he was 4 I had decided to homeschool him. I was certain he would be diagnosed with ADD or ADHD (at least) and was very opposed to medicating him. I ultimately decided it wasn't of much value to me to know that Dr. X thought he had Disorder Y and chose not to have him evaluated. I decided that if his behavior made homeschooling impossible or began to interfere with our everyday lives to an unacceptable extent, I would revisit the decision, and I still feel it was the right one.

One thing that really helped me, of which I was reminded again by moms who mentioned SPD, was reading "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. I thought it might be a bit of a warm-and-fuzzy approach because it focuses on avoiding triggers -- just like for children who need lots of physical contact, or become quickly overwhelmed in crowds; in fact these are some of the examples -- and understanding how to notice warning signs. It also helps you (the parent) figure out your own level of "spiritedness" and discusses how that might help or hinder your relationship with your child. Some of the characteristics of spiritedness include energy, intensity, and sensitivity. The book includes a really helpful section on introverts vs. extroverts and how they have different needs. For example, I learned that while I'm an introvert (meaning I need time to myself to recharge my batteries), my ds is an extrovert (meaning he needs to be around other people to recharge his batteries). Either personality type can learn to increase their comfort level in situations that make them uncomfortable (i.e., an introvert participating more in school or an extrovert playing quietly in his room) *but* they really need to be able to spend some time in their comfort zone every day in order to feel good. Realizing this made a huge difference, because I now recognize the need for myself to have alone time, or my ds to play with others.

Time outs usually did not work with him, because I had to sit there next to him and make sure he stayed. I quickly decided it wasn't worth the trouble most of the time and instead focused my energy on having him "atone" -- if he hurt someone, he needed to make them feel better; if he made a mess, he needed to help clean it up.

I am certainly not saying that this book solved all my problems; however it was reassuring to realize there were other kids who had a meltdown if their favorite shirt was in the laundry, or refused a bedtime story if the one he wanted to hear was unavailable. Most importantly, it helped me understand that *I am not responsible for his reactions*. I used to take it very personally when he got upset, and really wanted him to be happy all the time. It seems in retrospect that this often made him more negative, and when I learned to avoid trigger situations and work *with* his spiritedness rather than trying to *make* him do things, we got along a lot better and he was a lot more pleasant to live with. It made the tantrums easier to deal with because they became a lot less frequent.

He still has tons of energy, and daily physical activity is an absolute must for him. Especially when he has been sitting for awhile, when he gets up he is like a whirlwind. He walks back and forth while telling me things, sometimes seeming like he is acting out his story. He is constantly touching things to explore them, running his hands along the wall, drumming on the table, tapping his toes. At mealtimes he sits, then stands, then sits, then leans back in his chair, then puts his legs and bottom off to one side of the chair, then the other, and so on until he's done eating. When he was still doing this at age 4 my dh was worried and thought this was very weird, that we shouldn't allow it (ha-ha!). I was unwilling to spend mealtimes fighting with ds and refused to try to *make* him sit, preferring to focus instead on the "biggies." He still does this, and the only rule I made is that he has to take bites over his plate and clean up any mess he makes. It's working pretty well, and I think everyone feels better just accepting the way he is and not letting his need for movement -- which really is a small thing, in the scheme of things -- bother us or disturb our mealtimes.

Ds has become a kind, loving child who occasionally still has his moments -- don't we all? Things have really gotten better as he's gotten older. I know I am more relaxed in general because I have been a mother for awhile. Again, looking back, I realize that during the most difficult times I was working part-time, and while I'm certainly not passing judgement on employed mothers, it's been much easier to deal with my LOs since I started staying home full-time. It's been my experience that children really need clear expectations and consistent consequences, and of course that's easiest when you're with them most of the time. When you have to work, you have to work, though, and I think that makes it even more important to be consistent in the limited time you have together. I don't necessarily mean punishment, because I think it's very easy to become overly punitive in all of one's dealings with a child and want to punish over every little thing. However, natural consequences are a great teacher, such as getting scratched or bitten by a cat after they wouldn't stop pestering it, or having their favorite shirt not get washed because it was left on the floor instead of being put in the hamper. There are probably lots of better examples...

I had another thought: might your ds enjoy helping you make dinner and do whatever other chores you need to do in the evening? My kids always act up when they need attention. Sometimes just including them in what I'm doing is enough to defuse the situation.

Anyway good luck! I wrote a much longer message than I intended but hopefully there is something useful for you. I hope everything keeps getting better!


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## Bisou

Hi Ms Heartsandhands:

Thanks for posting and for reading my thread. I appreciate it.

I have definitely resisted medication for my son, though, like you, I think it can be needed in some situations, and I definitely don't want to be critical of mamas who've chosen that for their children. Believe me, there are moments when I've been very close, and there might be a chance that I will consider it again, but ONLY when everything else has been considered.

My son's therapist seemed a little relieved today, to be honest, that we might have some more things to add to our tool bag to help my son. Like you mentioned, he's been through A LOT in the last two years. It's hard for me not to feel guilty about it because I was the one who wanted to move back to Portland and out of my parents' house which was located in a small Washington town with nothing to do. It was a toxic environment with my parents constantly criticizing me and fighting with me, so I know intellectually that it HAD to be done, but sometimes I just think "If we hadn't moved, he wouldn't have been abused, and we wouldn't have experienced that break-in and all the resulting trauma." But I know that some of those things could happen anywhere. I guess I just feel especially guilty about the daycare abuse, like I should have prevented that somehow, but this was a big chain daycare (not my first choice, but very clean, bright, and heavily monitored, or so it seemed), the only one I could get him into because everywhere else had 1-2 year wait lists. When I think about all that he's been though in the past two years, all that WE'VE been through, it's really just baffling.

I do worry about the vaccinations. I know that people of my generation had those as kids and it doesn't seem like we had many problems with it, but it seems like LOTS of kids have problems that weren't as common when I was growing up. Is it the huge increase in vaccinations? I don't know. My son definitely had a crazy reaction to pertussis, with insane fevers and shaking almost to the point of seizures. I didn't think about this as causing behavioral issues, but definitely didn't think it was good for him!

The other thing that I don't know if I've mentioned is that I was taking Wellbutrin when I was first pregnant with my son because I didn't know I was pregnant for almost the first three months. I was told I couldn't have children, and after years of never getting pregnant, I didn't think it would ever happen. I was also taking antibiotics on a daily basis for a skin condition I have, so I often think about how those medications might have impacted my son's developing brain. Again, GUILT.







I know I wasn't aware I was pregnant, and these medications are supposedly "safe" (whatever!), but I still feel really bad about that.

I know that beating myself up about things doesn't help anything, and the best thing I can do is just go from here and do my best to help my son.

I am in the process of looking at kindergartens for my son next year (yikes! scary!), and this is a hard process. Where we live, you can either go to the neighborhood school or you can request a transfer to another school and then be chosen through a lottery. There are also a few charter schools, including a fairly new public Waldorf charter school, and they all have their own lottery systems, so there are lots of options. The Waldorf school is smaller and more intimate, but there is also a really cool arts-focused elementary school that I am looking at. Definitely lots to think about! I want my son to have a positive first educational experience, but I also know it might be hard to know what the school is REALLY like until my son is attending there. Wish me luck on that!!!

Ok, off to do some actual work now!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartandhands* 
Hi Bisou,

I have been following your thread but not posting until today. I'm really proud of you. That's really all I wanted to say. It isnt easy to "defy" what the medical community/"experts" are telling you. However, you followed your motherly instincts like you did when you persevered with nursing. You worked through hell for the first 6 months bc you knew it was the best thing for you son. You didnt just put him on medication (not that I am categorically rejecting the notion of medication bc yes, sometimes, RARELY, it IS necessary) bc the powers that be recommended it. You havent had a lot of support and yet you've managed to do what a lot of mothers would not have had the determination and vision and confidence to do. I applaud you for that.

I was at one time a while back, going to message and ask about whether you vaxed your son and whether your son ever had any reactions but I see you've mentioned that he had a severe reaction to pertussis. I think that is probably relevant but you'll never probably get any medical professional to validate that theory.

I am also so so sorry that your son was abused by his daycare provider and that you've had so many stressful situations early in his young life. Surely that stuff is all relevant too. I think these types of issues are so multifactorial, not that I am an expert, but it just makes sense to me.

It warmed my heart to read your recent posts about the improvements in your son's behaviour. You have worked really hard. You should be so proud of yourself.

I just wanted to send you a hug and say that for what it's worth, I am impressed with your fortitude and strength.

Sincerely,

Heartandhands


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## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I am a single mother of a 4-year-old son with extreme behavioral problems, and I am desperate for your help as I am not liking what the medical community is offering us (medication, of course).

I am at my wit's end, but I love my son and want things to change. I don't want to put him on this medication. It seems like there MUST be another way, but I am physically and emotionally exhausted, and nothing I do seems to be working. *Has anyone else dealt with severe behavioral problems? If so, what did you do? HELP!!!!!!*

Bisou.. I see that you are in my hometown, and oddly I think I remember talking to you a few years ago when you were very carefully looking for childcare... anyway...

My son is the same age and much of this is true for me too, thought maybe to a lesser extent, and I don't know why other than that i can tell *something* is bugging him- lack of inner peace or ablility to regulate or something, and always has seemed to. It's worst with me- others will tell me they see nothing like how I tell things. I don't discount early day care experiences- while we had no abuse like yours, we did have loss of familiarity (immense caregiver changeover at one facility) which did have a lasting impact. I'm not sure how to overcome that, some kids are obviously real sensitive. Sometimes I think just having preschool- at a good place- has a major impact on his life that I don't love.

IMO only of course... if time-outs (however intended) don't work, then don't do them! He likely *knows* what he's doing is not good stuff, he just has an overriding need or something inspiring him otherwise (no impulse control?). I remember being a kid much like my own child, though I didn't hit/spit... but I had the feelings, and I just desperately wanted someone to understand, be nice, and HELP me... only now, I still don't understand or know how to help so all I can do is BE THERE with my son. ALso, you talk a lot about rewards and withholding rewards- I know that would confuse and stress my child, and if I were the child, I would rebel against the whole thing and/or greatly despise it. But if that and the time-outs DO seem to help you, then you have the right tools for you!

I try to not put energy into correcting everything, and put energy into something positive between us- I think he gets me down then I get him down a lot- hard to break that cycle, especially by myself. I try to imagine the times it works do help, and realize that I can't always control the times that it doesn't work. BTW, I have RYSC- it made me feel good that there were other spirited children far and wide, but I didn't find that I wanted to apply most of the practical stuff... just liked the initial theory. Since we are in the same town, I'll lend you if you want









Likewise, we can't do things like playdates cause he will snub the entire idea, I don't even get to meet potential mama-friends with his attitude. He loves other people- I actually believe that many of the issues would be nonexistent in a true tribe of many people.. funy how you yourself said that! but I don't have it and thus the cycle of not being able to find one because of him.

My child is needy and anxious and unable to control himself and it comes out violent- I don't think that makes him angry exactly and I don't worry as much about the act of hitting as what's behind it- what he feels, how his mind works. I'd just about been ready to do counseling or an evaluation but worried what all they could possibly recommend.


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## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 

I think his problem is that she isn't playing with him the way he wants her to, so he's angry. I also think that he gets frustrated with her because he gets in trouble for picking her up too much and getting her out from under the bed when she's gone there to hide. Sometimes I have to tell him that if he picks her up again (for the 20th time!) or bothers her under the bed (where she is going to hide from him, obviously) that he will have a time out. I think he might resent her because of this, like the new baby sister who's getting him in trouble. I have no idea. Just randomly hypothesizing.

Bisou

sounds to me like he's upset that the new cat isn't just like the old cat... replacing an older, mellower pet who knew you with a kitten and all- kittens don't always want to be still!

i also forgot to say earlier... i remember reading somewhere that if you were attached when your child was a baby, you wouldn't be butting heads when they were a preschooler. guess again. i was attached and we most certainly DO butt heads.


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## Bisou

I don't know what to do. My son pulled our cat's tail again this morning REALLY HARD until she just let out this shriek. I was in the kitchen, and she was on one of the dining chairs (right by me), and everything was fine, we were having a good morning, and he just did that out of nowhere. He tried to say it was an accident, but he said he pulled her tail (and I don't see how that could be an accident), so I put him into time out immediately.

The time out was awful and since he wouldn't stay in time out and was throwing things at me and hitting things, I had to restrain him (which is what his therapist and the book, Transforming Your Difficult Child, recommends if they won't stay in time out) while he screamed and wiped snot all over my arms and spit on me.

The cat seems fine and tried to play with him after his time out was over, but how long do I let this go on? He hasn't caused her any major damage, but I also don't think having him periodically hurt the cat is good for either the cat or my son, nor do I want to get to the point where he causes her a major injury!!!! The idea of taking her back to the breeder is completely devastating to me because I just adore this cat. But of course I don't want her to be hurt. I don't know where to draw the line!!!! I also feel like taking the cat back because he's being "bad" would be really harmful for my son. Not that I'd explain it that way, but he's smart and would know it's because he's been hurting her. I guess some people would see this as a natural consequence. I am just completely lost about what to do. I hate having to make all these decisions myself. I am just so completely depressed about his behavior.

I know my son would be sad about it and doesn't understand that he wouldn't see her again. It just seems like everything is so night and day with him. One day she's his favorite thing ever, then suddenly he just hurts her for no reason, just out of nowhere. He said he pulled her tail because he didn't want her on the dining chair, but he wasn't going to sit there or anything. He just didn't want her on there. It makes no sense. Everything was fine with us this morning and with the cat. We were going to go outside and ride his bike before school, which is a happy thing for him. I just don't understand it. I don't know what to do. I am just devastated.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Bisou, when I saw you had a knew post, I was really hoping for a posative one. I really wish I could give you a nice big hug right now.

Have you explained to your son that if he hurts the cat again, she will have to go back to her live with her "mommy" (or however you would word it..) If so, what does he say to you? And if not, I would seriously consider trying this road. I understand you love the kitten, but her safety is at risk, and perhaps her introiduction so soon after the death of the first cat with everything else hes dealing with was just to much for him to handle?


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie and all:

Yes, we've had a few good days, and now we're back to a really bad one.

I guess my questions are as follows--

How many times of mildly/moderately hurting the cat (pulling her tail, pushing her roughly off a chair or whatever, pulling her leg) is too many? It seems so hard to figure this out! Like maybe 1-2 times is ok, but is 3-4 times NOT ok? WHERE DO I DRAW THE LINE? I don't know how to answer this question. So far she hasn't had any lasting problems, but *of course I don't want to get it to that point!!!!!!!*

I have made it EXTREMELY clear to my son that this is not acceptable. I think one of the most upsetting things for me, aside from the cat being hurt, is that my son was always the MOST GENTLE kid I'd ever seen around animals. It was one of the things that made me the most proud of him. People were just so impressed by his kindness with animals. I just don't get what is going on now.

I've made it very clear that if he continues doing this, the cat will go back to where she came from (the breeder). Sometimes he says "Good. I don't want her" but this seems to be when he's upset because he's gotten in trouble because of the cat. Most of the time when everything is fine, he says he doesn't want the cat to go.

It just makes me feel like something is really really wrong with my son, and it's just so upsetting, like what's he going to be like when he's older?

*Have any of you had problems with your children/child being mean to animals, and how have you handled this?*

Now, I know an animal and a person are obviously not the same thing, but I just keep thinking that what if this was a baby sister or brother that he was being mean to? I know sometimes kids have problems with jealousy with new siblings. Obviously I wouldn't get rid of the new baby. I realize that an animal and a baby aren't the same and that the emotional stakes aren't as high. I don't know. I am just confused. I don't know when enough is enough. I don't want to jump the gun on this, but I also don't want her to be hurt. Also, as I mentioned before, I know that if I took her back, my son would realize it was because he was hurting her, and I don't want him to feel like he failed and was so awful that the cat had to leave. Of course I wouldn't verbalize it in those terms, but he would be aware of that.

Ideally, I want to see my son STOP this behavior and be successful in acting appropriately towards the cat so the cat isn't hurt and we are all happy. I just wish sometimes we could have the ideal happen. Sometimes it feels like it's always the worst case scenario for me.









I know he would really be very upset about this and would want another pet or would want her back. I just don't know why he is doing this. I am just completely upset, baffled, and confused.

I also feel bad because I told the breeder how WONDERFUL he was with pets and really talked him up, which was all true! I feel awful now going back and saying, "Well, you know how I said he was so wonderful with pets? Actually, he's not being so great and is hurting the cat, and I need you to take her back." It just makes me feel like a failure of a mother who's raising a monster of a child. I know the cat's well being and keeping my son's behavior under control comes first, but it's still humiliating.

Also, this definitely isn't MY cat, and I've actually made a point of saying she's HIS cat or OUR cat (at least). I haven't given him any responsibilities, like feeding her or cleaning the cat box, so there aren't any resentments there. The only thing I can see is that she doesn't do what he wants when he wants, so he gets frustrated with her and hurts her. It seems like he also occasionally acts out by hurting her when he's mad at me. For example, this morning I was getting our stuff ready for work/school, making lunch, etc, and that's when he hurt her, though it was just suddenly. I think he literally pulled her off the dining chair by her tail, which just makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know if he doesn't understand how bad this can really hurt her or what, but it's so upsetting.

I know for a lot of you it's just clear cut, like "Just take the cat back!" But emotionally it's not that clear cut for me. I am a single mom who spends all of my time alone or with my son, and it's SO nice to have her around when I am working alone at home or when my son is at his grandparents'. I've really become attached to her, especially after just losing my cat of 16 years. I am just completely TORN. Advice?????

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Bisou, when I saw you had a knew post, I was really hoping for a posative one. I really wish I could give you a nice big hug right now.

Have you explained to your son that if he hurts the cat again, she will have to go back to her live with her "mommy" (or however you would word it..) If so, what does he say to you? And if not, I would seriously consider trying this road. I understand you love the kitten, but her safety is at risk, and perhaps her introiduction so soon after the death of the first cat with everything else hes dealing with was just to much for him to handle?


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Two parts of your post jumped out at me. I quoted them and am bolding my responses.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Also, as I mentioned before, I know that if I took her back, my son would realize it was because he was hurting her, and I don't want him to feel like he failed and was so awful that the cat had to leave. Of course I wouldn't verbalize it in those terms, but he would be aware of that. *This is the whole point. It is important for children to learn WHY their behavior is unacceptable, and that there are consequences for their actions. You know this, as you have implemented time-outs as a form of consequence for his actions. This would just be another lesson learned.*

I know for a lot of you it's just clear cut, like "Just take the cat back!" But emotionally it's not that clear cut for me. I am a single mom who spends all of my time alone or with my son, and it's SO nice to have her around when I am working alone at home or when my son is at his grandparents'. I've really become attached to her, especially after just losing my cat of 16 years. *I think that this might possibly be clouding your judgement on the situation. You said that cat is not YOURS, but your sons and yours, BUT, you don't want to get rid of her because youve grown attached and are lonely. Those are valid feelings, especially given your situation. But the cats safety and your sons mental health are what are priority right now, and for some reason, this new little kitten is NOT in your sons best interest.* I am just completely TORN. Advice?????

I hope you don't find my responses harsh. I tried to word them delicatly, yet firmly and to the point. I wish for NOTHING MORE then to be able to help you and your son through all this tormoil. You have endoured such hardships your entire life. BOTH OF YOU. I just really feel deep down that the cat needs to be taken out of the picture for now. A pet can be reintroduced later, once you have established the issues your son is having with THIS pet. It may be just as simple as she ISNT the pet who has just passed away, and that is why he is mean to her. I know you said he is extremly good at verbalizing, but is it possible that even YOU forget that he is still only 4? Take away al the trauma he has been through, and he is still just a very small child learning impulse control and emotions. Add to that the trauma AND Possible sensory issue, and you have a very unique situation.

I would like to add that I always had a cat when I was younger. We got him when I was about your sons age, maybe a little older. He was already a year old when we got him, and he wasn't a lap cat by any stretch. I would hold him as much as I could until he would scratch me with his back claws and I couldn't hold him anymore. Then he would attack my ankles. This went on for YEARS. My mother would scold me all the time to "stop torturing the cat!". I am sure I even yanked his tail a few times because he would NOT let me hold him or whatever (He just wasn't an affectionate cat, and then I probably sealed the deal by antagonizing him all the time) I am happy to report that I am not a serial killer, I do not enjoy harming animals, and am repulsed when I hear a news story of neglected animals or tortured ones. I had a cat of my very own from the time I was 20 til right before I had my first son. (She now lives at my moms) I do not miss not having a cat anymore, as I am way to busy, but I am not an animal hater by any stretch. Just wanted to give you a little hope that your sons behavior right now might not "mean" anything at all.


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie and all:

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I haven't replied sooner. It's been a busy time.

My son has once again calmed down with the cat situation and is treating her appropriately. Both my therapist and my son's therapist think that his behavior with the cat isn't something to be concerned about right now. I don't know that I agree, but I am putting the decision on the back burner for right now. She is going to get spayed tomorrow, so I hope I will be able to get him to leave her alone during the recovery period. If not, I may have to devise some sort of lock to keep him out of the laundry room where she will be sequestered.

I've realized that he is doing this to the cat to get my attention, once he realized it gave him a HUGE reaction. He hasn't hurt her in the past few days at all and has been really wonderful with her, but he will imitate her little squeek/yowl sound and then say, "Mommy, I just pulled her tail," with a smile on his face when I know he hasn't done that, then he looks to me for some huge blow up of a reaction. I have just sort of ignored it, and I think he's now realizing that he's not going to get this big reaction from that.

The book Transforming Your Difficult Child says that to children parents are like this big complicated toy with lots of flashing lights and sounds and expressions and that most of the time kids get a much more "interesting" reaction from bad behavior than from good. I think this is such a good point and something I am trying to be really aware of! When I first thought about this, I thought that was such a crazy concept. Why would a child want a bunch of negative energy? (I know this is a very common concept in psychology, especially with kids, but it just seemed weird to me as a parent.) But I see now that this is exactly what my son does. If I am exhausted and lying like a dead body on the couch while he plays on the carpet at my feet, and if I don't get up and play after a few requests, he's going to do something big and bad to get my attention. Somehow I need to figure out how to be less exhausted (maybe meth is a good option? JUST KIDDING!!!!) but I haven't hit on any magic solution there. I know he needs more energy from me, but more positive energy. I think all kinds of parents don't give as exciting of a reaction for good things. You say, "Please go and brush your teeth," and if they do this, many parents (not all, but many) might not even react much, or may just say, "Good job!" in a mildly enthusiastic tone. However, if a child doesn't do something and you've asked him/her ten times, or is doing something really awful, eventually, you might blow, which is like a 10 on the intensity scale compared to the 0-2 response of the "Good job." I need to work on upping the intensity of the positive feedback. THIS KID LIKES INTENSE. He's intense and also likes intense! This also seems to fit with the sensory-seeking issues.

A while back, when he'd do something I liked or wanted him to do, I'd run in and almost scream, "You did it! GOOOOOD JOB!" then pick him up and jump up and down and spin him around frantically, and he just loved it. This is the kind of reaction he wants. The problem is that my son needs the energy of about 3-4 adults, and I am one adult with very limited energy. When he was a baby (from 6 months to 2 years), we lived with my parents, and he would exhaust all three of us every single day. He needed us to dance with him for 2-3 hours to get him to sleep (holding him and singing and dancing), otherwise he would just scream and cry and never sleep.

I feel like I have aged visually 15 years in just the last four years. I am so tired. Sometimes I think I should just quit my job and go join a commune somewhere, stop working so hard and just take care of my son. That's another conversation for another time.

*Today was a good day. He listened. He helped me do dishes and actually did a great job and made the process faster, not slower, which is a big improvement! We had no time outs, no hurting the cat.

I even saw him make a really good decision today when it came to emotional control!* We had given the cat a bath, and I put a towel on the couch for her to lie on since she was still a bit damp. He didn't want her on the couch, for some reason, and kept taking her off, taking the towel, etc. He was very upset about her being on the couch. I tried to help him work through it, but he was just getting more and more mad. We were about in the time-out zone, when he decided he was going into the bedroom to have some space. I said, very neutrally, "That's a great idea! Maybe you can have some space to yourself and read some books, and then come out when you feel better." I was very nice, even though he was super pissed and I had been pissed, and I offered to cover him with a blanket and was nurturing. (I wouldn't have done this if he hit me or something, but he had just been verbally angry.) I then closed the door and left. He came out in about 10-15 minutes and was totally fine with the cat being on the couch. It was great! I later complimented him on how he handled that and how he avoided a big tantrum and time out. He seemed really proud! If only I could have more of these moments!!!!!

I just wish I could somehow increase my patience. I used to be SOOO patient, but now, not so much. It's like my patience is running on empty. I just keep holding on to hope that this will get better.

We won't be able to get in to see the sensory processing disorder specialists until March, but once we do that, I am hoping that will really help! I will keep everyone posted.

~Bisou


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Just hoping you know you are being thought of, even from the other side of the country.


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie:

Thanks. That means a lot! We're back in a good/better phase with my son, so I tend to post less. Whenever things are really bad (which can be often, unfortunately!) this is one of my few outlets.

I have decided to keep the kitty, for now. She had to get spayed, which I was really worried about since he had been rough with her. I was worried that he could really hurt her if she was recovering from surgery!!! But since she was almost 8 months old, I couldn't wait any longer. She was going to go into heat any time. Thankfully, my son has been completely wonderful with her. I told him he couldn't pick her up until the vet said it was ok, and he hasn't tried once. He has been a wonderful caretaker, extremely gentle to her and looking out for her (like making sure she doesn't jump down from high furniture and calling me to come get her). THIS is the little boy I know, at least when it comes to animals. I have been really building him up, telling him he is "such a GOOD owner" and how great it is that he is keeping the kitty safe, and I think he is feeling really good about himself for how he's acting with her.

We've still been working on the point/credit system outlined in the book Transforming the Difficult Child, and I think it's working REALLY well. He's been getting more and more points every day. Last night he was on this cleaning spree where he was just picking up all his toys, emptying the garbage, helping with dishes, putting dirty clothes in the laundry, and wiping counters down with a sponge, ALL ON HIS OWN! I started to think perhaps my REAL son had been abducted by aliens and replaced with this one, and wow, those poor aliens!!! Just kidding.









I have also been focusing on really getting a decent amount of sleep. I've been going to sleep when my son does, even if the house is a mess and I have work to do. I used to stay up for several hours, working until I collapsed, and I just had absolutely NO energy. I've only been going to bed at the same time as my son for a few days, and I am already noticing a HUGE difference. I think this is really helping my patience. When I am exhausted, I have NO patience, and I need an endless supply with this child. In order to avoid meltdowns, I have to be super creative, smart, and energetic. I have to be funny and entertaining. It's freaking exhausting. But having hours and hours of massive tantrums is MORE exhausting.

Anyway, thanks for checking in. I just keep hoping that we have fewer ups and downs and more consistent ups. I hope as he gets older that he will be able to regulate his emotions more. I know it might not work out that way, but I can hope! He has been doing a good job, at times, of going into his room and taking a time out HIMSELF before he gets himself in trouble. When I see him starting to blow, sometimes he decides to go in there, and sometimes I encourage him, and it works at times at letting him cool down, lay on the bed, read some books, and just have some space. I am hoping to get him to move more in this direction. This sort of intervention was absolutely impossible with him in the past, so this is a HUGE change.

I hope everyone has a great weekend!

~Bisou


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## Pookietooth

Just wanted to quickly post the suggestion that you have your son evaluated for sensory processig disorder (also known as sensory integration disorder). Some of his behaviors could be interpreted as seeking certain types of sensory stimulation, and often kids who are under-responsive to sensory input can be out of control physically and get very aggressive seeking physical sensations (pressure, vestibular stimulation, etc.). Also, have you tried any sort of dietary changes, such as a gluten or dairy free diet, FAILSAFE, Feingold, etc.? Often food intolerances can cause behavior issues. I have a friend whose son gets totally out of control if he has dairy or food dye. Another has a daughter who acts autistic if she gets exposed to any gluten.


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## Bisou

Hi Pookietooth (interesting name, by the way!)~

If you had been able to read the thread (I know---it's LOOOONNGGG!), you'd see that sensory processing disorder was suggested by someone else, and I did follow up on that. The initial screening by my son's therapist showed a marked difference in his sensory processing, so we are now on the long wait list at the occupational therapist.

Thanks for pointing that out though! A few people mentioned it, and it was never something I'd heard of before, so I appreciate everyone's help with this!!!

~Bisou


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## Pookietooth

Oops, sorry I didn't read all the posts. Glad they are working on that soon, hope it helps. Also, diet can help that if there are sensitivities, speaking from experience here.


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## GracieLynn

I have a friend with a son who is exactly like your son. Her son is 10 or 11 now. The problem you will/could face down the line is puberty makes these issues *so* much worse







and he will be bigger and stronger.

My friend has had her son on the drugs you've mentioned and all types of therapies. She had to come a SAHM. The school sends him home when he was out of control.

He is such a GREAT kid when he isn't melting down. When he is melting down, he honestly doesn't care or doesn't comprehend the damage it does in one way or another.

My oldest is bipolar and severe OCD plus anxiety (general and social). We didn't SEE it until he was 12. Puberty kicked it into high gear. Before we thought maybe he was just spoiled, being an only, oldest grandchild ect... And for him, it really wasn't too bad. Until he hit 12.
He threw an (old school LOL) TV at us once when he couldn't get home *right now* (because he was overly anxious and couldn't control it). And then threw a bicycle. And then my freshly folded laundry. Plus anything else he could easily get to. It was terrible.
We had him on a lot of different drugs, trying to find the right combo. Sadly, they made him gain weight (over 100#'s in 2 years), which fueled the depression. Plus they made him feel sluggish.
He is off of the drugs now. I wish a doctor would prescribe him xanax, for when the attacks hit extremely hard (for 6m he wouldn't leave the house, and on and off for a year, he didn't leave his bedroom except for the bathroom and to eat).
He has gotten his bi-polar mostly under control, but his anxieties are still something he is trying to work out. He has severe social and general anxiety.

I know you are dead set against trying the meds, but your son can always go off... drugs really helped my son through a few extremely rough years.


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## Bisou

Hi Pookietooth and everyone:

No problem about not reading the whole thread. It's a long one! We have our appointment with an occupational therapist in March, so I am hoping that will be helpful for us.

I also finally looked into the Feingold Diet, and from what I've read, my son and I have already been eating following those guidelines, more or less. We eat a 90% organic vegetarian diet and don't eat anything with artificial colorings, flavorings, or sweeteners. Also, I haven't noticed anything with wheat or dairy. His moods never really seem to correlate with anything he's eaten, unless he's simply hungry. That can definitely bring on a meltdown. Being tired or hungry are two of the worst, but I know this is an issue for many children.

I have thought about keeping a daily log of his activities, diet, mood, and tantrums (what sets them off, what resolves them, if anything), but that seems like a lot to add to my already insane list of things I have to do each day.

We hit another patch of really bad days this last week, especially last Sunday and Monday. He hit me pretty bad both days, and this is something he hasn't done for a while, at least not THIS bad. He slapped me so hard I saw stars on Sunday. This kid is very strong for his age and has great motor skills, so he is able to aim and strike with extreme accuracy, which isn't so great for me when he's in one of those moods.

I have been sticking with the prescribed time out program, but on Monday, he was in time out for almost 6-7 hours, off and on. He would be in time out, get out of time out, then immediately do something else and go right back into time out. I kept asking him to calm down, and he was just screaming and sobbing, "I CAN'T. I CAN'T. I NEED HELP. I NEED HELP." I felt so bad for him and he was just begging me to sit with him, but so many of the books say that if you give a child positive attention (sitting with him in time out, giving him attention) for negative behavior, the negative behavior will continue. This is something I didn't agree with before and I was very sold on attachment parenting, but when his behavior continued to get worse, I decided my AP practices maybe weren't working.

But unfortunately the rigid time out thing isn't working either, most of the time. Whenever I have to put him in time out, things escalate, but I keep being told by therapists, books, and others that I just need to stick it out, be strong, and "make him mind." I am told that if I give in, I will only increase his bad behavior.

It's all so confusing. When I follow my instincts, it doesn't work, and when I follow what's recommended, that doesn't work either. Or some things work great one day then not the next.

Now I am thinking about re-considering the time out approach. Maybe I should sit with him and try to help him calm down. To her credit, my son's therapist (when I described the situation to her) did recommend that perhaps I should try to calm him down by sitting with him and that helping him calm down was more important and more beneficial for him than being rigid about it. One thing I do like about her is that she always modifies her approach to try to find something that works.

All that said, I am starting to think maybe I won't be able to affect his behavior enough to make a significant change. Maybe medication will be needed, though I am not totally ready to accept that yet. The side effects scare me. Not knowing what it could do to his brain, giving him yet another thing to deal with on top of what he's already dealing with, scares me.

It's very hard. It's very lonely, especially as a single mom. I haven't had a date in over 5 years (since before I was pregnant). I can't spend time with my friends with my son because he often causes major problems with my friends' children, and we have to leave. I don't have much time to socialize when he's at my parents' because I need to work during that time. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped in a terrible situation from which there is no escape. I keep trying to find ways to eke out a tiny bit of happiness for myself, and I am not giving up yet.

Thanks everyone, as usual, for everything. You all have been my lifeline!!!!


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## Bisou

Hi GracieLynn:

I have so much sympathy for parents in situations like yours. I can totally sympathize. It's so incredibly difficult. It just seems like there are no good answers, especially when dealing with behavioral problems or possible mental illness in kids. If I could have one magical wish, it would be for some amazing blood test or brain scan that could give a definite answer and let us know what our children were deficient in or allergic to or whatever so we would know exactly what to do to treat them.

I had a dear friend named Erin who was schizophrenic. The schizophrenia came on suddenly, in her mid to late 20s, and she quickly went downhill. I saw my once-brilliant friend, a college professor and novelist, suddenly afraid to eat around me because she feared I had poisoned her food. They put her on every kind of medication possible trying to find one that would work. One made her gain 40 pounds in a matter of weeks. Another made her drool uncontrollably. Another make her shake uncontrollably. And the worst of it was that they'd make her aware of her surroundings just enough to know that she was a) crazy and b) having these terrible, humiliating (to her) side effects. It was absolutely awful watching her go through that. She finally couldn't handle it anymore and took her own life.

I've also had my own experiences with mental health drugs. I've suffered from depression off and on since my teen years, and I've tried several different anti-depressants. I haven't taken any in the last five years or so, and I have turned to acupuncture and Chinese medicine instead, which has been very effective for me. But I had several bad experiences with the anti-depressants I tried, including worsened depression, anxiety when I'd never had anxiety before, weight gain, shaking, uncontrollable yawing along with shaking, memory/thinking problems, and those lovely electric feeling "zaps" that people talk about with some medications. On top of all that, I usually didn't feel that great and still felt pretty depressed!

These experiences make me worried to give something like this to my son. It's not something I take lightly AT ALL.

This is not to be critical of any parent who has chosen to give their child medication. It might be something I have to consider down the road. I am just not there yet.


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## mushka3000

No advice or anything useful just a







.


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## *MamaJen*

Hey, there was an article in the most recent "Brain, Child" magazine that sounds somewhat similar to your story. It's not online now, but it's called "Love with Teeth." The author's blog is http://nopointsforstyle.blogspot.com/. It might make you feel like you're not the only person in the world going through this.
"Nobody who is living this hard, hard life of raising a child who is extremely volatile (whatever it ends up being officially called: autism, a mental illness, or any of the alphabet soup diagnoses: ADHD, SPD, ODD, OCD, etc.) is doing it gracefully! Yes, I'm sure some do better than others. I'm one of the "others" in some circles, part of the "some" in others. We all are. It's a hard life. I'd like to see every one of us give ourselves a break, because we do the best we can."


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## Bisou

Hi MamaJen and all:

Thanks for the article. I will definitely check it out. I've been extremely sick with some sort of flu for the past three days, and it's been really hard. I've had a constant temp around 101-102, and I have no one to help me. My son REALLY acts out when I am sick or under the weather at all (even tired). I had to keep him home with me yesterday because I don't have childcare on Mondays, and it was very hard. I desperately needed sleep, but if I ever started to dose a bit on the couch while he was playing at my feet, he'd just scream "WAKE UP" in my ear. Then he started moving furniture, scratching our wood floors. I was telling him to stop, but he wouldn't listen, and I was SOOOOO sick and barely able to move that I just couldn't handle it.

Being a sick single mom is really the WORST.

I decided to take him to daycare today so I could rest, but of course he didn't want to go. He said, "If you take me I am going to punch Ethan* in the face. I am going to kill Ethan." (*Ethan is not the child's real name.) Ethan is only two years old. My son kept talking about how much he hates Ethan and how he was going to be mean to him and hurt him if he had to go to school.

I am just so sick that I had to take him, and I also didn't think it was good to encourage his threatening behavior. On the way down to the car, he was hitting me in the legs, kicking and hitting everything we walked by, and screaming "I HATE YOU" the entire way to the car. It was not fun.

I wish my parents would be able to help me with my son when I am so sick like this, but they both work. The only way to have them help me would be for them to take a day off work. I wish they would though. I really really need help. I am just desperate for help today, for someone to just come take my son so I can rest.

Mushka--Thanks for the hug. I need it!

~Bisou


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## sgmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I am just so sick that I had to take him, and I also didn't think it was good to encourage his threatening behavior. On the way down to the car, he was hitting me in the legs, kicking and hitting everything we walked by, and screaming "I HATE YOU" the entire way to the car. It was not fun.

Goodness! I wish I had time to read this entire thread. It sounds like you've had a rough go lately!

I just wanted to ask how you handled this situation. Did you stop and get down to his level to validate his feelings? Or did you continue walking, dragging him the whole way? The only reason I bring it up is because this REALLY sounds like a child who needs to be heard. Granted I could be way off base, not reading this thread. Or maybe you already tried it and got nowhere?

I really wish I could help more... 9 pages of replies though is quite something though!! There are some really great people here.


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## Bisou

Hi Sgmom:

To be honest, yes, I was sort of pulling him along as he was kicking and screaming and hitting me, and perhaps this wasn't the best approach. I had already talked to him a bunch in our apartment about how he had to go to school because mommy was really sick and needed to rest, and he just wasn't having it. He isn't the most understanding kid.

I don't quite get why he gets so angry when I am sick. I don't know if it's because he's scared or what. But he is very demanding and he does get very angry if I am sick or tired and don't have the energy to react to him the way he wants. I'd love to cuddle with him on the couch and give him attention that way when I am sick or tired, but he really wants me to be playing with him on the floor or wrestling or doing something really active, and as sick as I am right now, that's just not an option.

Thankfully, after much begging and crying on my part, my parents came down last night to pick up my son and take him to their house so I could recover. This is a big hardship for them since they both work, so they are both having to take time off work to help me with my son.

It's hard because several of my friends did offer help since I've been so sick, but my son is so awful with their kids (aggressive towards them and hurting them at times), so I feel like I don't want to put them into that sort of situation when they are just trying to help me out. Having single parent friends is great because they understand what I am going through, but sometimes it seems like it would be handy to have some childless friends who liked kids who'd want to take my son to the mall or to the children's museum or something. My son really has a hard time with children who are younger, even by a few months. He really prefers older children, like 6 or 7 years old, but he is only 4. Do any other people with children who have difficulties notice this with their children liking older kids? I wonder why this is?

I hope everyone has a great Valentine's Day. I will be spending mine in bed (hopefully) recovering from this awful flu!!!


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## boopie2001

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I am no expert in the field of psychiatry or psychology, but I was wondering if you looked into getting treated for depression or PTSD? Could you do that along with getting the treatment for your son? I read in a few studies that sometimes treating the mother's depression can help with the child's behavior (this is in no way blaming you at all). It sounds like you both have gone through so much trauma in the last two years. That along with the lack of emotional support, job stress, and fatigue can really send a person over the edge.

I don't want to make light of what you are going through. You both have gone through a lot. Your son could very well need medication. I really hope not. I'm just wondering if you treat yourself, you could get into a better place mentally for both you and your son.

I hope you don't take offense with anything I've mentioned. I'm just hoping I can offer some help. You sound like a great mother who is giving every once of herself for her child.

Take care of yourself and please let us know how things are going for you. I really hope things get better for you and your son.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boopie2001* 
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I am no expert in the field of psychiatry or psychology, but I was wondering if you looked into getting treated for depression or PTSD? Could you do that along with getting the treatment for your son? I read in a few studies that sometimes treating the mother's depression can help with the child's behavior (this is in no way blaming you at all). It sounds like you both have gone through so much trauma in the last two years. That along with the lack of emotional support, job stress, and fatigue can really send a person over the edge.

I don't want to make light of what you are going through. You both have gone through a lot. Your son could very well need medication. I really hope not. I'm just wondering if you treat yourself, you could get into a better place mentally for both you and your son.

I hope you don't take offense with anything I've mentioned. I'm just hoping I can offer some help. You sound like a great mother who is giving every once of herself for her child.

Take care of yourself and please let us know how things are going for you. I really hope things get better for you and your son.

Hi Boopie:

No offense taken at all. I appreciate your concern and suggestions!

Yes, I am having therapy for depression (though it's not as big of an issue for me as it has been in years past) and PTSD. I actually have two therapists for me and one for my son! I also have acupuncture for stress and to prevent the recurrence of depression.

I don't feel particularly depressed most of the time, though I do have my moments. My main problem right now is being stressed, overwhelmed, and unsure of what to do about my son's behavioral issues. I just keep trying to move forward and we are looking into new treatments for him, particularly occupational therapy, to see if this will help him with possible sensory processing disorder, which is a new thing we are exploring.

Thanks for your post! I really do want to consider all angles, so even though people sometimes mention things I am already doing or have already tried, people also often mention new things that I haven't heard of or tried, so that's really helpful for us. I really appreciate it!


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## Bisou

*Warning: This is long.* I've had a VERY bad day today. Very bad. I guess I just need to vent.

*I guess there are two main (disorganized, scattered throughout the post) issues here, intertwined:

1) My son's violence has increased in the past week or so. I am at a breaking point. Neither time outs nor the gentler approach (time ins, talking, negotiating) are working at all. I don't know what to do.

2) Today my son was diagnosed with MRSA--medication resistant staph--and I can't get him to take the medication. This was expected as he has NEVER willingly taken any medication, no matter what I've tried. I don't know what to do.*

It seems lately that we haven't gone more than a day or two of decent days without then heading back into many many bad days. My son is very sensitive to stress and drama in his life and going on around him, so anything that happens seems to set him off. The problem is that we always seem to have things happening, crazy things, things that don't happen to most people (like the break-in situation).

This week my son was already acting up. Things are worst on Sundays and Mondays, which are the two days I have at home with him. Neither one of us go to school/work on those days. I am always optimistic, thinking we will have fun and go to the park, go to the zoo, the children's museum, etc, but he often says he wants to stay at home. This would be fine except that when we stay at home, all he does is cause MASSIVE trauma--hitting, screaming, tantrums, out of control--all day, and he just ends up in time out after time out because he is completely and 100% out of control. This is how our lovely week started. I try all sorts of things (diversion, exercise, being silly, having him punch pillows, wrestling, etc etc etc) to keep things under control, but it just never seems to work for me, or it might work for 20-30 minutes, but then it's all over and we're into hell.

So, on to the related (but also different) issue. . . . .

Yesterday I noticed some bumps on his tummy that looked like acne, almost, but sort of odd. They were very red and had white tops, like a whitehead. In the morning he had two or three, and in the afternoon, he had five or six, so I was a little concerned that it was spreading. He didn't have a temp, but I called the doctor anyway, and they said it could be staph infection and made an appointment for him to be seen today.

Usually I don't tell him he's going to the doctor until about 20-30 minutes prior to the appointment because he freaks out about the doctor. He doesn't want to get on the scale (screams and cries), doesn't want to have anyone touch him or look at him. It's not even a fear of shots. He just hates the entire thing. So he knew that he was going to the doctor today because he had heard me on the phone, and ALL DAY (until the appointment at 3:00pm) he screamed and cried about not wanting to go to the doctor's appt. He was screaming things like, "I don't want to go! I hate you!" which is his new theme lately ("I hate you"). I was really kind, sympathetic, and understanding and said, "I know you're scared, but it will be ok. You won't be getting any shots. It won't be a big deal. She will just look at your tummy and probably say it's fine." I tried and tried to convince him it would be ok, to empathize with his feelings (I know you're scared. I will be right there with you. It will be ok), and to make him feel better. I even tried pretending I was the doctor and he was the patient and we acted out how it would go. He'd laugh for about two minutes, then immediately start screaming again. I told him it was important, that he had to go to get it checked out and make sure he was healthy. Nothing was working. I tried REALLY hard for hours.

His anger and frustration escalated into violence towards me, and he started hitting, punching, kicking, etc, like just coming up to me and hitting me or punching me in the back because he was angry. So, following what my son's therapist has taught and what most people have said is required with a kid like this, I put him in time out, or tried to. These days he will never go to time out, so I have to physically pull/drag/carry him to time out. Carrying him to time out is dangerous and almost ensures that I will be slapped or punched in the face. Since he is so disregulated emotionally, he won't stay in time out either, which means I am supposed to do a restrained time out, holding him in a chair. While I hold him in the chair with his arms wrapped around him, standing behind him, he thrashes, says I am hurting him (even though I try to hold him as carefully as possible) and he tries to bite me, spit on me, or hit me with his head if I get close enough. Excuse my language, but it's f-ing miserable. Just miserable. He will even intentionally pee his pants at times. When I let him go to the bathroom, he will refuse to go and/or lock himself in the bathroom, and then when he's back in time out, he will say he has to pee. It becomes a power struggle. It's just absolutely terrible.

I have reached a point this week to where I feel like NOTHING is working, at all. When my son was younger, I was all about attachment parenting. I believed in "time ins" instead of time outs and would sit on the couch and talk to my son about his behavior. This is what I believed was a gentler, kinder approach, and what I wanted to do, but his behavior continued to get worse and worse. When he was finally at the point of bashing other children's heads into the wall unprovoked, I sought professional help. I was told that part of my son's behavior problems were caused by my laid back approach to discipline and that I hadn't given him serious enough consequences. I was told I needed to give him time outs and make him stay in time out, to hold him (if he wouldn't stay) until he was completely exhausted and had "burned out" all of that terrible aggressive energy. I have held him in time out for hours at a time. IT'S NOT WORKING.

I have also tried talking, problem solving, trying to calm him down, to sympathize, to be loving, kind. I've tried avoiding what causes these meltdowns, but sometimes it can't be avoided. For example, he can't NOT go to preschool because I have to work. He can't NOT go to the doctor when he has a problem that needs looking at. As parents, we all know that there are things that must be done.

None of these approaches are working, and I am just completely at a loss. Occasionally I get optimistic and get this burst of energy and just think I can do this, but I don't know if I can anymore. I don't know what to do. I feel like I am trapped in an abusive relationship, and I want to break up and leave, but I can't. I know he is a child, but it's still incredibly difficult being hit, kicked, spit on, and slapped, sometimes multiple times per day, along with being told that I am hated, he wishes I would die, and I am ugly and fat. It's just terrible. I know it's terrible for him too. But when I found out I was pregnant, I was so excited, as I had always wanted to be a mother and was told I was infertile. It seemed like an amazing, wonderful gift had been given to me. That things have turned out this way (at least so far) seems so incredibly unfair, especially since I am dealing with this completely alone.

So, today I was putting him in time out for hitting me, and he was refusing. He was in the bedroom and I decided to kneel down and tell him just to come to time out and it would be short and easy, and then he would be done, no big deal, and as I was explaining this is a calm and loving manner, he just slapped me on the face as hard as he could.

And, God forgive me, I slapped him right back.























I feel like crap for doing this. (I would use a stronger word, but I don't think it's allowed.) I feel like the worst person on the planet and a terrible mother.







It just came out of me in an instant. All the anger that has been boiling inside just burst out of me, and I lost control. I just couldn't take it anymore.

Of course I believe this is 100000% wrong. I was raised by violent parents, so sometimes I feel like it's just stored away in me. I was spanked/beaten until black and blue (called "spanking"), slapped, and told that I should have never been born. I never wanted to be anything but loving and patient with my son, but he makes it SO hard to be the kind of parent I want to be. It's honestly like living in hell.

I realize now that I am getting at my breaking point more and more regularly. I am yelling, losing my temper. I think it's because I truly feel like I have tried everything, including trying time outs for more than a year, consistently, EVERY TIME he did something that hurt me, himself, or others, or seriously damaged property, and while I've seen a slight improvement in behavior, it's not what it should be. His behavior is still bad enough to be completely unbearable. I am so sick of living like this. I am so sick of thinking, optimistically, every time, "I have the whole day off with my son today! I wonder what fun things we can do?" only to have our "fun activity" be a 6-8 hour physical fight.

My son's therapist and a friend of mine, who is also a therapist, (along with countless parenting books, including Transforming Your Difficult Child, which was recommended by many people) told me that if I would just stick with time outs and be consistent (putting him in time out every time and keeping him there if he was resisting or continuing to do the same behaviors) he might really fight it and it might even get worse for a few weeks, but then things would be so much better, even amazingly better. It's not happening. I am really at a loss about what to do. I absolutely HATE being in a physical confrontation with him, restraining him. It sucks. It feels like we are in a physical battle. But I've been told that if I don't do this, he will only get worse. I've tried other approaches, and they don't work either, and I feel like I can't just ignore his behavior if he's hitting, punching, slapping, and kicking me. He's only four. What about when he's eight or ten? He will be bigger than me! (I am only 5'2".)

After the entire violent blow-up between the two of us, of course I was really distraught and crying. I told him I was very sorry, that it wasn't ok for mommy to hit him, but that it ALSO wasn't ok for him to hit mommy. We hugged and cuddled. Later, I asked him what mommy should do when he hits me since he didn't like time outs and that didn't seem to be working for us. He said I should just tell him to stop. I said, "Well, but if you've already hit mommy, I can't tell you to stop, because you've already done it, so what should happen?" We came up with a plan that if he did something he shouldn't, what if mommy told him to go to his room and sit on his bed for a time out? He smiled and seemed to like that idea. I said, "What if you were really mad, what would you do?" He didn't know, so I asked him if he could hit the windows or throw his toys? He said no. I said, "What about if you hit your bed or pillows and kicked your legs?" He said yeah, and I agreed that this would be a good way to deal with being mad. We then practiced him pretend "hitting" me and him getting sent to sit on his bed, and he did it. We practiced him being angry and hitting his pillows and bed. But then later in the evening, when he, once again, hit me, I told him to go to his bed and he wouldn't. I've tried sending him to his room before, but it's never worked. (FYI, it's feet away from me, not upstairs or downstairs, or far away, and very brightly lit and safe feeling.)

So, back to today, he was diagnosed with MRSA--the medication-resistant form of staph infection. His doctor said that he needed antibiotics, and if it wasn't treated, he would likely develop huge abscesses that would have to be lanced, and it would be painful and even dangerous. MRSA can be deadly.

Of course with my son, NOTHING is easy. When he was younger (age two onward, after I stopped breastfeeding), I could slip most medication into a bottle of soymilk. (Once we weaned, he BEGGED me not to take away his bottles and was so devastated not to be able to nurse anymore that I felt sorry for him and let him continue to have that comfort. I only stopped because I needed medication for a serious skin disease I have, and I waited so long to stop BF that I had to have extensive surgery and almost skin grafts!)

Now, there is no way to get medication into him. He was prescribed an antibiotic liquid. I did try to slip it into a drink he was having, but he could taste it and asked me what was going on. I told him that the medication was in his drink and explained that he needed to take the medication and that I would help him. He started screaming in anger that he would NOT take the medication. I told him I knew that it was really hard, but that mommy would help him, and we'd try whatever we needed to try (sugar, honey, hot chocolate, chocolate syrup, whatever!) to help him get it down. I decided to give him a spoonful of sugar, the medicine, then some chocolate soymilk. Of course I was thinking this is terrible for him to be eating straight sugar, but I was desperate. He wouldn't even try a tiny drop of the medicine. He just screamed and cried and said "I am not doing it!"

I tried to convince him gently, and again said that I would help him and we would do it together, but he refused. I begged and pleaded and said I was worried about him getting worse if he didn't take it. He refused. I said if he didn't take it, he would probably have to have antibiotic shots at the doctor's office. I didn't say this to be mean, but hoping that he would realize that it may very well be either take the medicine, or get shots. I told him I didn't want him to have to get shots, so please let me help him take the medicine. No go.

I've been thinking that his behavior has been so unbearable lately that maybe I need to see about medication for him to help with his behavioral problems, but now I wonder how that would even be possible.

I've tried (begged, pleaded, offered any kind of treat you can imagine) to get him to take medication before when he's had a high fever or has been in pain with a sore throat when he is sick. He can be sobbing in pain with the worst sore throat you can imagine, and he wouldn't even try to take Tylenol or anything.

Of course I could try to force him to take the medication, but aside from the ugliness of that scenario (holding him down and forcing it into his mouth? no thanks), it wouldn't work anyway, as he'd just spit it out or vomit.

*So, I have questions*:

1) What would you do about the time out situation? Would you just give up on time outs? Nothing seems to be working at ALL. Am I missing something? Some people say I have to stick to time outs, which are not working; others say I need to talk and negotiate, which is also not working. I've tried each method for months to years. We are still doing a points log and have been doing this daily for over a month, but it doesn't seem to motivate him much on most days. I am desperate. I don't know what else I can try. Have I tried everything? Is it just time to give up and resort to #3 below?

2) Any thoughts on the MRSA medication issue? Do I just call the doctor and say he's refusing to even try meds, no matter what I do, and just see if he can get antibiotic shots? The idea makes me ill, but I know this can be an extremely serious infection. I don't want to see him with huge abscesses, being held down and screaming while they try to lance them. I feel completely stuck on this!!!! He can't swallow pills and won't even try anything. I know that no matter what I try to do to convince him, he won't try it. It's so upsetting. I don't want him to be hurt or upset, but this needs to be treated.

3) If you think that obviously nothing is working behavior-wise, so he needs medication, how would I even get him to take medication? Even writing those words is upsetting to me, but I guess if him NOT taking mental health meds means we are physically assaulting each other, that's not a good situation either. Somehow I have to find a solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just know that medications aren't magical and have many serious potential side effects. He's only four years old.

I am just scared, sad, overwhelmed, and feeling like crap. And I really don't have anyone to talk to about this, at least not anyone I know. A couple of you have emailed me privately with your phone numbers, but it seems very odd to call a complete stranger with an emotional crisis. I just don't know how long I can go without some help here. Some people have suggested respite care, but I already have him in childcare 4-5 days a week, so it's not like I am with him 24/7. I just need more emotional support than anything else.

Ok, I guess I am more than done. I apologize for my disorganized ramblings. I am just too tired to go through and edit this into something that makes better logical sense!


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## sgmom

Oh my goodness!!! I want so badly to reply, but I just got up to get a glass of water and my daughter just called out to me, so I need to go check on her (it's 3:30am).

Please, PLEASE try to get some help. I know it's the middle of the night, but if you need to wake someone up to tell them you need them, then please do it. There are a lot of help or crisis lines that you can call as well. I suggest you find their numbers and keep them close for when you need someone to talk to. Often they can put you in the right direction of an appropriate person to talk to, but even if they can't, they're ALWAYS willing to listen.

I can't even imagine what you're going through right now, but I know that no one should be doing it alone. I would be on my way to your house RIGHT NOW if I could...

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. A million hugs from over here. I need to go lay with my daughter now, but I couldn't just go without replying first.


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## Satori

mama, I know its hard to accept, really hard but he needs medication. By not medicating him your doing far more harm then good. You don't have to live life like this and neither does your son. You think its hard on you? Think about how he he feels always being so out of control mentally and physically. That in itself is traumatizing. Please give the meds a try, it doesn't have to be forever but you've done what you can and need more help then you can do alone.


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## wytchywoman

Ohhh (((((HUGE HUGS))))) mama. As far as the MRSA goes, yes. I would just go the shots or IV route and let the dr know ahead of time that theya re going to need extra staff available to hold him down. As for the psych meds, speak to a psychiatrist and see what they say? They may have some ideas or experiences with this and have some good tips. My DS 2 has huge issues with nasty tasting liquid medicine. We started training him to swallow meds when he was four by starting off with M and M minis. They are tiny and easy to swallow whole, plus if he ends up chewing them they don't taste bad. You might also strongly consider putting him in School on Mondays so you can have a break to do something nice for yourself. you need a break mama!! (((((HUGS)))))


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## SleeplessMommy

Bisou,

It sounds like a very difficult situation you are in right now. I know you are doing the best that you can. You have tried so many behavioral approaches, and while they work a little bit, they are not sufficient to create behavior that will be safe for you and him in the long term. You know that if the bio-dad has bi-polar, there is an increased chance of him having it. The family history plus current behavior is a pretty strong hint. I am sorry.

Right now you need to get him to take meds for MRSA. And you need him to stop tantruming long enough to get better. If you can't get the meds in him at home, it way well be time to consider hospitalization + psych meds. I know you don't want to do it, but you have tried everything else.









You need to find a solution in the next few years - either to improve his behavior or to stop the escalation of tantrums. You know it will be life threatening for both of you if he is like this as a teenage. I understand you have had bad experiences with meds, but they are improving every year. I really hope you will consider trying meds for him.


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## Bisou

*Sgmom:
*
Thanks for your reply. I did call the Childhelp Hotline a week ago or so because things were SO bad with my son I thought I was just going to lose it and explode in rage. It's a non-reporting child abuse hotline, and my son's therapist suggested this as a possible option if my son was raging and I felt like I couldn't handle things. They were kind and somewhat helpful, but we only talked for about five minutes, and then I had several more hours of my son's tantrums to deal with. It wasn't pretty.

Unfortunately, I don't really have anyone else that I know personally to call for help. My friends have children who behave like angels 99% of the time, so they just say things like, "Well, just tell him he has to do x, and make him do it!" and they think it's so easy, like "You just need to put your foot down!" When I try to explain that absolutely doesn't work with my son, they get frustrated with me, like I am asking for advice then not taking it. I know they are trying to be helpful, but they just don't get it as their kids aren't like mine!

My mom is someone I often try to call, but she gets this whole victim complex thing going and will literally say that it's harder for her to listen to me talk about what's going on with my son than it is for me to live it. It just drives me nuts. I know it's upsetting to her; she says there is nothing she can do. This isn't actually true, because giving me emotional support (even if she couldn't solve anything) would be SO helpful. But it's all about how hard this is for HER. Honestly, how can her listening to me talk about being slapped and dealing with 6-8 hours of tantrums be harder than actually dealing with the situation, all by myself? I don't think so.

A few MDC mothers have emailed me and given me their phone numbers, and that has been very kind, but I feel funny calling a complete stranger in the middle of a crisis. I know you all have your own families and things going on in your life, so it just seems odd to call randomly.

I will respond more later. At work!


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## RheaSilva

I had an entire post composed but I guess I forgot to hit "submit reply" and it got lost.

Anyway...OP my heart goes out to you and your son. This has got to be so incredibly difficult.

I know you have him in therapy; has your therapist broached the idea of inpatient treatment at a mental institution? I know it would be difficult for you to be separated from him, but you are really in over your head and it isn't good for EITHER of you to go on like this.

He's four now, but he'll continue to get bigger and stronger and just may end up hurting, maiming or WORSE some innocent person. I know you don't want to have it on your conscience that you could have helped prevent that but chose not to.

Also, please consider giving the kitten away. He or she has not done anything wrong and doesn't deserve to be tortured like this









Best of luck to both of you; you're in my prayers.


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## UptownZoo

Bisou, my dear. Poor Mama. I'm gonna tell you a bunch of stuff. Some of it might seem, er, unusual for MDC. Please know that if I sound bossy, it's only because I've been there. I know you read my blog and we corresponded some there, but I have more now.

First point: This is not a discipline issue.

Again: This is not a discipline issue!

One more time: This is NOT a discipline issue.

I know how hard it is (really, really, down in my toenails KNOW), but climb down off that hook you're on.

One small blessing for my DH and I, in raising a severely dysregulated child, is that he is our 4th. We have those other 3 kids (healthy, typically-developing) as evidence that we're not total screw-ups as parents. Not that we haven't spent tons of time believing that we WERE screw-ups and Carter's problems are all our fault, but we did have that evidence.

But I'll say this till the day I die: normal, loving parents, no matter how fallible, CANNOT create this level of dysfunction in their children. It just isn't possible. Even abused children don't usually act out at the level of my DS and yours! You are here, now, and forevermore off the hook. I know that you have made mistakes; so have I. All parents do. Contrary to popular belief, "good" kids are not the result of "good" parents, nor is the opposite true. Kids are born with their own personalities. Do parents matter? Of course, but our power is much more limited than we'd like to believe. Which is why you feel so guilty, but I had to learn to stop taking the blame for Carter's problems, and I had to learn to stop taking credit for my other children's successes. They are themselves.

You hit your kid. The good news is, you don't feel good about it. The bad news is, you now know that you have limits. You're absolutely right; it IS like being trapped in a bad relationship. Well, not LIKE, so much as IS. It's all but impossible to take what we take hour after hour after day after week, month, year, and not snap. You're doing this on your own, God help you, and you don't have the luxury of expecting yourself to handle it "well" (I mean well in a June Cleaverish sort of way) or with some kind of class.

Look, what I'm trying to say is, you're a person. Raising kids like this drives you to the edge and over it again and again and again. You need some substantial help or this will keep happening. I don't mean to be the voice of doom and gloom, but you are not a superhero. I know how it feels; Carter is cussing at me, then punching a dog, then pounding on the door while I'm in the bathroom, then he punches and spits at me, then he's spitting all over the kitchen counters, then cussing some more, then back to the dogs, then screaming at me because I made his soup too hot (or not hot enough, or I gave him too much, or not enough, or the wrong kind, or used the wrong bowl, or he didn't want soup at all), and around and around we go. It's unbelievable how relentless he can be. Some days, I am inexplicably a bottomless reservoir of patience. Some days, I reach my limit and scream back at him within 20 minutes of picking him up from school.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
1) What would you do about the time out situation? Would you just give up on time outs? Nothing seems to be working at ALL. Am I missing something? Some people say I have to stick to time outs, which are not working; others say I need to talk and negotiate, which is also not working. I've tried each method for months to years. We are still doing a points log and have been doing this daily for over a month, but it doesn't seem to motivate him much on most days. I am desperate. I don't know what else I can try. Have I tried everything? Is it just time to give up and resort to #3 below?

The reason that no discipline plans/programs/systems are working is that your DS does not have any ability to control his behavior, no matter how much he may want to do so. _He can't do it._ He can't negotiate the way some 4 year olds can negotiate because his brain (his physical brain) is not working the way other 4 year old people's brains are working. If you manage to come to an agreement via negotiation, he can't abide by his side of the bargain. His brain is so overloaded with excessive stimuli (both outside of him and coming in through in his senses, but also what's happening independently inside his skull) that he must react. When people are in acute physical pain, they don't sit quietly; they scream and move and try to find help or relief. When a kiddo like yours is having a brain storm, he has to act on it. There's no choice in the matter.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
2) Any thoughts on the MRSA medication issue? Do I just call the doctor and say he's refusing to even try meds, no matter what I do, and just see if he can get antibiotic shots? The idea makes me ill, but I know this can be an extremely serious infection. I don't want to see him with huge abscesses, being held down and screaming while they try to lance them. I feel completely stuck on this!!!! He can't swallow pills and won't even try anything. I know that no matter what I try to do to convince him, he won't try it. It's so upsetting. I don't want him to be hurt or upset, but this needs to be treated.

Yup, get the shots. Yes, it will be unpleasant, but then it will be over, unlike the oral meds with which the unpleasantness will be spread over, what, 10 days? Besides, he likely can't go back to daycare until he's been treated. You don't want to play around with MRSA.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
3) If you think that obviously nothing is working behavior-wise, so he needs medication, how would I even get him to take medication? Even writing those words is upsetting to me, but I guess if him NOT taking mental health meds means we are physically assaulting each other, that's not a good situation either. Somehow I have to find a solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just know that medications aren't magical and have many serious potential side effects. He's only four years old.

I know how scared you are. We started Carter on meds when he was 4 years old and I won't even try to describe for you here the agony it was for us to make that decision. Ultimately, it's your decision, but I will tell you that from what you've written here, your son has reached the point where this is a medical emergency. You need a pediatric psychiatrist (NOT a psychiatrist who happens to be willing to see children, but a psychiatrist who only treats children; this is very, very important.). Ask your DS's therapist or pediatrician for a recommendation. By making the appointment, you are not committing to use meds, so just do it first thing tomorrow. Then find out where all the pediatric emergency services are in your city. If you're somewhere big, there is probably a pediatric psychiatric ER, but if not than a peds ER usually has a peds psychiatrist on call. Again, you're not committing to hospitalization by going there (we've taken Carter, but we've never admitted him), but you need to know where to go if your DS gets violent such that you feel you can't keep both of you safe.

You'll find a way to get him to take the meds (hard core bribery will usually work if you find just the right prize), but it's usually not a struggle after you've achieved stability. Less than a month after he started on meds (and remember, he was the same age as your DS is now), Carter said to me, "Now that I take my pills, my brain is so much quieter! I don't even care about taking them because it's so peaceful now." He only gives me trouble about taking his meds when he's acutely symptomatic, in which case we spend too much money on the pills he spits across the room, but we manage.

If you think it would be helpful to talk, email or message me and we'll exchange numbers. I know several people have offered that already, and I understand that it's weird to talk to someone you don't know, but really, you NEED to talk to some people who get it, who have been where you are. Your DS's therapist and the peds psych hospital are good places to ask about support groups for parents of kids with severe behavioral differences. And I don't know why others have offered their phone numbers, but the reason *I* do that is because talking to other parents and trying to help in some small way is how I stay sane myself. I don't know how we would survive without our little support group; getting support is so so so good, but giving support is even better, somehow more healing.

Enough? Yes, I think so. Always chattering on, me. Hang in there. It's a hard, hard life, but there IS help. It's shameful how difficult it can be to get that help, but I have no doubt that you will be the badass mama and get your baby everything that he needs to have the best possible life.


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## sgmom

Just a thought (sorry if it's already been suggested), but have you considered (or have you done) allergy testing on your son? I knew a little boy years ago who was highly medicated for... something. I forget the exact diagnoses, but he was severely hyper-active (ADD, so they said) and his emotions would fly from one direction to the next without ANY warning. Biting, kicking, just MAD. 15 seconds with this kid and you knew something wasn't right

Anyway, as it turned out, he was allergic to dairy! Of all things.

Just throwing it out there, incase no one has mentioned it to you yet.


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## Bisou

Ok, let me see if I can fit in an update for everyone, *my MDC angels!!!!!!* I did log on a day or two ago and wrote a lengthy response, but then when I went to post I was no longer logged in and lost the post.







So frustrating.

Anyway, the last two weeks have been sooooo awful. I can't even believe what has been happening, but I think I am finally getting a break, for at least a few days here.

Here's what's been going on . . . . . .

1) *MASSIVE SICKNESS*: Two weeks ago I got super sick with some sort of flu and then developed vertigo. I was having about 4-5 hours a night of the room spinning like I was massively drunk and about to pass out. Not fun. The vertigo is still an issue. Some days it takes me almost an hour to be able to walk normally in the morning (without holding on to walls and walking sideways). I know I need to get to the doctor because I've never had this problem before. It seems to be getting slightly better, but not improved enough that I'm not worried about it.

2) *CAR ISSUES*: Since I was so sick, I was desperate for a break from my son, so I felt I HAD to take him to daycare. One of those days I was too scared to drive, so I asked my friend to take my son to daycare and me to the doctor. She did, but it really stressed her out because she was behind at work, so then I felt guilty for asking. When she brought me home from the doctor (she had driven my car as my son went insane when we tried to get him into her son's carseat, just because it wasn't familiar!), her car wouldn't start, so she hooked it up to my car to jump start it. I didn't realize it, but she had hooked everything up wrong, so the jumper cables burst into flames and it was so scary! Now my headlights won't work on my car and there are a few other problems with different lights coming on and off on the dashboard. Like I have the money to have new car troubles!

3) *MORE CAR TROUBLES*: That afternoon I didn't have anyone to help me go pick up my son from daycare, so I decided I shouldn't be a baby and should just do it. *I backed out of my spot and into my neighbor's car* because my depth perception was really off with the dizziness and vertigo. (I thought about taking a cab but didn't want my son to go anywhere without his carseat, and mine is very very hard to install, so I didn't want to remove it from our car.) So, now I am dealing with a possible increase in my insurance.

4) *GRANDMA DIED*: My last surviving grandparent died on Valentine's Day. Of course this sent my family into turmoil, especially my parents. This has also been a little hard on my son, since he did know his great-grandma. Since he has very little family, he is very attached to the few relatives he does know.

5) *MRSA*: My son then developed acne-like bumps on his tummy. I took him to the doctor, and they said it was probably MRSA--the antibiotic-resistant form of staph infection. He refused to take the medication and there was a chance he might even have to be hospitalized.

6) *CAT ALMOST DIED:* Then, on top of all of this (including massive behavior problems with my son), the cat starts vomiting all over. It happened four or five times one day, then she vomited a string, so I thought "Yikes! Good thing she barfed that up. She should be fine now." But when I woke up the next morning, she had vomited another 5-6 times during the night and was really lethargic. It was 8:00 am and I had to be at work and teaching at class at 10:00, but I took her to the vet because I was really worried. Only 20 minutes later they called to say they were rushing her in to emergency surgery. It turned out that she had swallowed some yarn and it was caught in her intestines. They said if I hadn't brought her in, she would've been dead in less than 24 hours. Poor baby! I feel super guilty, and of course having her undergo emergency surgery was stressful. On top of that, it cost me $900 I don't have!!!

7) *OTHER MINOR THINGS*: In addition to those, I had a few relatively minor things, like my internet not working for 4-5 days, just to add to the overall stress levels. Since I work at home, this is a pretty big deal for me to not have internet service. I often work at night when my son is sleeping, so not having internet access is a problem! I also got a ticket for my registration tags being expired because I didn't change my address after the break-in (so didn't get the notice to renew and didn't even think about it!), fearing that psycho might try to track me down. There are many little things that alone aren't much, but when added on top of my son having a serious infection and behavior problems, me being sick, my cat almost dying, grandma dying, and financial stress, I can't believe I haven't just exploded yet!

The thing that's so hard about this is not being able to have much help because I don't want to expose people to my son, especially since most of my friends are single moms and would have to bring their children along if they were going to help me. It just seems like something that no one should have to endure! I never know what he's going to be like. It's hard not having a hubby to take the car to the DMV to have the plates renewed or to the shop to get the headlights fixed. It's hard that EVERYTHING that has to be done has to be done by me.

Sigh.

On the positive side, my son finally (after two days of begging, pleading, negotiating) agreed to try an antibiotic-laced chocolate milkshake. Before he wouldn't even TRY the meds. I did try sneaking it into something, but he could taste it, and since he knew he was supposed to be taking meds, if I offered him anything out of the ordinary (like "Hey, want a chocolate milkshake?") he would say, "What, are you going to put my medicine in that?" He is just too smart; there's no sneaking things by him. I finally got him to agree to try it though, and he has been drinking chocolate milkshakes twice a day for a few days. He's starting to get sick of it though (I don't blame him!), and I need him to do it at least 10 more times or so.

I also got my internet fixed, and the kitty is home and seems to be recovering reasonably well, so at least I can stop worrying about that.

I've been reading lots of different books (The Explosive Child, The Out-of-Sync Child, and Raising Your Spirited Child), and it's difficult that so many of them suggest even opposing ideas. The Explosive Child, which really sounds a lot like my son when they describe these kids, says that you should try to pre-empt the explosions and prevent them by negotiating, but my son is so irrational at times that there is no negotiating. I have been trying it more and trying a few other ideas, and he is in a more calm state these last few days.

I am trying really hard to get my anger and frustration under control. I've found that in the last few weeks things have been so bad that I've gotten into a habit of being angry and frustrated with him much of the time, and that's not how I want things to be. I need to be a better role model for him.

We have our first appointment with the OT for sensory processing disorder on March 8, and I am really hoping that will help.

I am definitely getting concerned about his self esteem lately too. He will often say that he hates me and I hate him, or that he hates himself. I've never said I hate him or dislike him, and I will often tell him that no matter how mad I am, I always love him and like him, but I don't like being hit, or whatever the behavior is.

Anyway, we were at his therapist's office, and there is a car there that's exactly like ours and it's there every time. He pointed this out, and he said he wondered why this car was always there, and I said, "I don't know; what do you think?" He said, "Well, maybe they have a bad kid too, so they have to come here to Dr. Smith [not her real name] too." I said, "Is that why you think you have to come here?" and he said, "Yep." I was just shocked that he thought he had to come to see his therapist because he thinks he's a bad kid. We first began coming when he was about 2 1/2 or 3, and it was mainly because he'd been abused at his daycare and was acting out towards other kids. I never explained why we went there, and his therapist and I never talked about him when he was there--EVER. It is always just play therapy where we go in and play, totally child-directed, and that's it. Then I go in separately for parent-coaching type appointments where I discuss his behavioral issues or problems during the week, then we try to come up with solutions.

I told him that he doesn't see his therapist because he is a bad kid, but because we've had some scary and bad things happen to us, and she helps families who have had problems like that.

Anyway, so that's my update. I will read the rest of everyone's responses now. I hope you are all having a good week so far. I decided to take the advice someone offered and take my son to school today (Monday), which is a day we usually spend together. I needed more time to myself this week!


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleeplessMommy* 
Bisou,

It sounds like a very difficult situation you are in right now. I know you are doing the best that you can. You have tried so many behavioral approaches, and while they work a little bit, they are not sufficient to create behavior that will be safe for you and him in the long term. You know that if the bio-dad has bi-polar, there is an increased chance of him having it. The family history plus current behavior is a pretty strong hint. I am sorry.

Right now you need to get him to take meds for MRSA. And you need him to stop tantruming long enough to get better. If you can't get the meds in him at home, it way well be time to consider hospitalization + psych meds. I know you don't want to do it, but you have tried everything else.









You need to find a solution in the next few years - either to improve his behavior or to stop the escalation of tantrums. You know it will be life threatening for both of you if he is like this as a teenage. I understand you have had bad experiences with meds, but they are improving every year. I really hope you will consider trying meds for him.









*Hi Sleepless Mommy:*

I did finally get him to take the antibiotics, THANK GOD, and the MRSA is clearing up. Big sigh of relief.

One point of clarification--
I don't know that my son's dad is bipolar. There was definitely something "off" with him, but he was abused so severely as a child that it's hard to know what in his behavior was caused by that and what might be a mental illness. There were times when I wondered if he might have multiple personalities. My son's dad was sexually and physically abused by his parents and even prostituted by his parents as a child and forced to have sex with his sister. It was so terrible that I felt incredibly sorry for him and wanted to help him and show him there were good, loving, trustworthy people in the world. Of course that didn't work. I never would've chosen him to be the father of my child, but since I was 30 and had been told I couldn't have children from the age of 19, I wasn't thinking pregnancy was even a possibility.

Despite all the problems my son has, I feel fortunate that I was able to have a child. I just hope that things get better, not worse, with his behavior.

I guess my feelings about meds have several different components:

1) *I am worried about possible side effects, especially for a child so young.* I am worried about him not being able to communicate with me effectively about the side effects that he might have.

2) *I think I believe, deep down, that giving him medications would be a failure on my part*, like I didn't try hard enough or didn't parent him properly, like I gave up. (No judgement of people who have put their children on meds, of course!!!!) I keep thinking I need to try one more thing, one more thing. I do know that his behavior is not good for me or him, but my parents insist that he's "normal" and he only acts this way because he's angry at me for putting him in childcare where he's been abused (or whatever their reason is at the time). Instead of saying that he acts this way with me because he trusts me or whatever, it's that he acts this way with me because he's angry or because I am stressed and he can feel my stress, then acts out. From my parents' perspective, it's always something I am doing wrong. This echoes my own fears about this too, that it's somehow all my fault.

3) I know that children this young aren't often diagnosed, but *since he hasn't been diagnosed with anything, and since his therapists/doctors haven't even suggested that they strongly believe he is bipolar or anything else, it makes me more reluctant to medicate him*.

I think at this point I am going to see if the OT will help with possible sensory processing disorder issues, but if that doesn't help enough, I think I will have to consider meds. I think I have pretty much tried EVERYTHING.

Sigh.


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## Bisou

Hi Uptown Zoo:

Thanks so much for your detailed response!!!! I didn't realize you were the same person whose blog I read. When I read your blog, I thought, "Geez, this person totally gets it!"

Do you mind me asking if your son has been officially diagnosed with anything?

Also, what changes have the meds brought him? (Feel free to direct me to a particular blog posting if you've already explained that somewhere.)

It's hard having to make these decisions alone, without the support of a partner, especially when the other two main people in my son's life (my parents) are DEAD SET against it. They maintain that he is a "normal, healthy" little boy. He doesn't act like this for them, and they usually have him at least 24-48 hours at a time. I know that sometimes children hold it together around others, but lose it at home, but it's still so baffling.

One thing that might be the reason for his different behavior at their house is that they are on 6 1/2 acres in the forest, and all he does is play outside for hours and hours. It's completely quiet. There's no traffic, no noise, no one bothering him. He doesn't have to go to daycare so mommy can work. He basically gets to do what he wants: run around, dig in the dirt, ride his outside toys, garden. With me, he's in the city, around lots of people and noise. He has to go to daycare where people get in his space, which is hard for him.

More and more I am noticing differences with him.

I am noticing that when children approach him, he seems to misinterpret their intentions in approaching him, nearly every time, as aggression. It's like he can't read their body language at all. He will often hit or push a child as the child approaches like a preemptive strike: I'm gonna hit you before you hit me. Only if the other child is giggling or saying something like "Hey! Do you want to play tag?" will he react (most of the time) in an acceptable manner.

I am also noticing his sensitivities to sounds, like the other day when I was scraping a pan with a metal spatula and he said it "hurt" when I did that. He has also decided he likes being squeezed by me as hard as I can squeeze him.

I do hope the OT can help with some of this, but it sounds like very few parents have found magical answers. I wish there was some way to test the levels of people's brain chemistry, find what's low, then just add the right amount of what's missing, just as you'd add a quart of oil to a car that's low one quart. Wouldn't that be so much easier and comforting? Maybe someday.


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## wytchywoman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 

I am noticing that when children approach him, he seems to misinterpret their intentions in approaching him, nearly every time, as aggression. It's like he can't read their body language at all. He will often hit or push a child as the child approaches like a preemptive strike: I'm gonna hit you before you hit me. Only if the other child is giggling or saying something like "Hey! Do you want to play tag?" will he react (most of the time) in an acceptable manner.

I am also noticing his sensitivities to sounds, like the other day when I was scraping a pan with a metal spatula and he said it "hurt" when I did that. He has also decided he likes being squeezed by me as hard as I can squeeze him.

I do hope the OT can help with some of this, but it sounds like very few parents have found magical answers. I wish there was some way to test the levels of people's brain chemistry, find what's low, then just add the right amount of what's missing, just as you'd add a quart of oil to a car that's low one quart. Wouldn't that be so much easier and comforting? Maybe someday.

That sounds an awful lot like Aspergers Syndrome. My older son has been diagnosed with this and he too has a really difficult time reading social cues and determining intentions from his peers. AS is on the autism spectrum, so consequently sensory issues can also be a big part of the package.That's part of the whole package....just something I wanted to pipe in with. I'd be sure to tell the OT about that.


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## joensally

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
That sounds an awful lot like Aspergers Syndrome. My older son has been diagnosed with this and he too has a really difficult time reading social cues and determining intentions from his peers. AS is on the autism spectrum, so consequently sensory issues can also be a big part of the package.That's part of the whole package....just something I wanted to pipe in with. I'd be sure to tell the OT about that.

This. The more you share, the more he sounds like he may be on the spectrum. In young kids, a lot of the behaviours can look like early onset bipolar - diagnosing young kids is hard.

Have a look at this book, as it does a good job of teasing out the differences of bipolar, asperger's and other issues. There is a section on SPD, asperger's and bipolar, all available on free preview at google books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DmU...age&q=&f=false

When you have time, this book is a very good read and provided a lot of comfort to me:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kPt...age&q=&f=false

This is another good one:
http://books.google.com/books?id=J5M...age&q=&f=false

The great thing about an ASD diagnosis (trying to find a light in your struggle) is that it is generally better funded than other diagnoses in most jurisdictions. Medications are not used for ASD as such, although they may be used to treat comorbid conditions (ie hyperactivity, depression etc). There are also good therapeutic options available and lots of kids make great progress as they mature and receive appropriate supports.

Here are a whole bunch of google book limited previews on SPD:
http://books.google.com/books?ei=A1i...ssing+disorder

IME, dealing with the sensory stuff really helped the behaviour, temper and meltdowns.


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## MissNo

I agree with a more intense therapeutic approach, the multiple traumas you have both been through need addressing, and maybe then you can look into medication if the aggression doesn't decrease. Or if you decide to use medication, a sub-clinical dose, if they can recommend it, might ease some of the agrression long enough to establish a successful plan in therapy. I am not surprised that he takes it out on you, both from an abuse standpoint and the "my mom will always love me" approach, so PLEASE try to get some time for yourself. You are not the cause, and you need to be rested and supported to be healthy. Please post updates and progress!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Bisou,

Stop thinking that if you try meds, you have failed your son!!!!! SERIOUSLY! I would not have made it as far as your without "caving" by now (I use that term very playfully, in hopes to lighten things a smidge).

But I also believe the time outs are NOT working, the therepy is just not effective enough, and perhaps some different opinions will be extremly helpful. Sometimes, when you are headed done the wrong path, all you need to do is change directions.


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## MissNo

I am so sorry for replying without realizing there were so many updates. Uptownzoo, I agree with your post very much, you make such great points. Bisou, you are a great parent. You didn't cause this behavior in your son, and you are trying so hard to find solutions, you ARE a wonderful mother.

Buuuut, you need a support system. Your parents are toxic, and you need some other options to be there for you in case of emergency or just to vent. Is it possible for you to find an in-home provider for day care, maybe with fewer kids? Is a mother's helper an option? Someone that can be with you and your son in your home that he can be comfortable with so that you can catch a nap or a break?

Hang in there. I know it sounds so cheesy, but I know I keep coming back to this post looking for an update. People care about you, and we want you to succeed.


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## spottiew

Couple of new ideas for you since you are local to me... Legacy Emmanuel has a free Collaborative Parenting class/workshop/support group every Monday eve- not sure if kids can attend or not. THey also run 'What About Boys' periodically on an evening, it's a small cost maybe. I have not been, but I hear good things. I think the Collaborative uses a lot of Explosive Parenting ideas.

Emily and Lyla (PDX MDC mamas) run a Connected Parenting class/workshop/support group through Zenana Spa. I have not been, but many in the PDX tribe have and found it helpful (though that is not universal). It should be a sliding scale cost, and timing tends to vary every time around. You can email Lyla about it from their website... they would not be into the points system, as they are more Alfie Kohn/Unconditional Parenting without Punishments or Rewards types. There's also a UP support yahoo group for Portland for that style of parenting.

Lastly, I am in town, I have a spirited child, and I would be happy to hang out with you and provide a viewpoint of someone who doesn't have an angelic child and who has tantrums and drama and anger. But, said child of mine may or may not wish to play with yours- he's at the age of wanting to pick his own company and not be dragged around by mom's ideas. I'm willing to try, though. I'm free in the late afternoons, let me know. Jill


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissNo* 
I am so sorry for replying without realizing there were so many updates. Uptownzoo, I agree with your post very much, you make such great points. Bisou, you are a great parent. You didn't cause this behavior in your son, and you are trying so hard to find solutions, you ARE a wonderful mother.

Buuuut, you need a support system. Your parents are toxic, and you need some other options to be there for you in case of emergency or just to vent. Is it possible for you to find an in-home provider for day care, maybe with fewer kids? Is a mother's helper an option? Someone that can be with you and your son in your home that he can be comfortable with so that you can catch a nap or a break?

Hang in there. I know it sounds so cheesy, but I know I keep coming back to this post looking for an update. People care about you, and we want you to succeed.

Hi MissNO and my other MDC pals:

*So NOT cheesy at all! You have no idea how much you've all meant to me. Just knowing that if I am having a hard time I can come here and post and people will actually listen and respond sometimes seems like a miracle.* I don't even know any of you people! It definitely renews my faith in humanity to know that a bunch of strangers on the internet would think about me and my son and want to help us. Thank you sooooooo much.









My parents are toxic = agreed! Lately my mom has been suggesting that I should basically give up my son to live with them and I can have him on weekends. It's so ridiculous to me that she doesn't think being basically abandoned by me would be harmful to him. Come on! The last thing my son needs is for me to abandon him to live with his grandparents. What kind of message would that send?

As far as the childcare situation goes, I do have him in a small in-home preschool/daycare. Sometimes it's only him and one other child. Actually this is pretty hard for him because he's really bored, and he's 2 1/2 years older than the child he spends the most time with. He's been asking to go somewhere where there are more children.

Now for some GOOD NEWS! We've actually had a good day or two in the last few days!

After we had our last really bad incident where I completely lost my cool with him




























we are now trying a new approach to time out, which is sitting on his bed and even looking at a book. I decided that I HATE having to be in a physical confrontation with him trying to force him, physically, to stay in time out. However, I still feel like he needs to have some consequences if he hits me or throws something at me. So we had a talk and we came up with this plan that he could sit on his bed. If he doesn't stay on his bed, he will have to do a time out the old way. We've tried this twice. The first time he pretty much stayed on his bed. Yesterday he was more angry and resistant, so I put him on his bed and closed the door, then he came out of the bedroom. I reminded him that if he didn't stay on the bed, I'd have to hold him in the chair, and that he and I had agreed that he would do time outs on his bed. He went back into the room, and I put him on the bed. When I closed the door, he said "Mom, can you set the timer for four minutes?" in a calm, sweet voice. I said yes, and he stayed in there! When I went in, he was lying there calming reading a book, and we didn't have any other incidents for the rest of the day!

Now of course I don't think that our problems are magically solved. I know if he is really in one of his rages, this might not work at all. I am hopeful that this will be effective enough that we can use it at least the majority of the time. We will see. I am trying to be hopeful whenever/wherever I can.

He was at his best this morning, even trying to calm me down when I was feeling frazzled about being late, trying to get him to school, me to an appointment, and give him and the cat their multiple medications! (Antibiotics for him, lots of stuff for the kitty post-surgery.) He kept saying, "It's ok mom. I can help you. Everything is ok!" and trying to help me in any way he could. He was totally cooperative and sweet.

I've also been trying to catch him when he starts to go into a fit. For example, if I say, "We need to go to the store," and he says, "But I want to go to the park!" and starts screaming and yelling, I've been saying, "WAIT! Let's talk about this," and then I try to negotiate or explain to avoid the conflict. Before I'd often say, "No, we need to go to the store. We can't go to the park right now." No matter how kindly I said this or tried to explain why we needed to go to the store, seeing me dig my heels in, in a sense, only made him explode.

I keep trying and trying to modify my behavior to calm him, but I also don't want to be totally trying to pacify him at all times and let him control everything. It's a hard balance. It takes SO MUCH ENERGY to be constantly thinking, constantly planning diversions, constantly trying to be funny and entertaining. I have been feeling on the verge of just dropping dead in my tracks lately. (And I also haven't made my weekly acupuncture appointment in a few weeks, and I am noticing how much I really need that! It really keeps my stress down!)

On the autism issue, I've discussed that with his therapist, and she doesn't see it. When I've read descriptions of Aspergers, maybe one or two things sound like him, but the rest don't. For example, he does seem to be aware of people's emotions, and while smart, he doesn't have that "genius" element that many Aspergers kids do. He also is very good with his motor skills. I suppose he could be on the very end of the spectrum? I don't know enough about how autism works.

I started making a list of behaviors and characteristics that I will bring to the OT and to his therapist. I've discussed some of these things with his therapist, but not all. When I've read about sensory processing disorder, a lot of those children have the same kinds of problems with transitions and new situations. They also often have problems with other children. I am hoping the OT will be able to help me sort all this out!!!! I am still trying to remain hopeful.

Here is the list I am compiling for the OT who will be looking at the sensory processing stuff. Let me know if you see anything here that pops out at you! I know lots of you have children dealing with these issues, so I really appreciate the info you've all given me. If it wasn't for an MDC mom who mentioned sensory processing disorder (SPD), I would've never even thought to look into that! I think he has definite SP issues, now that I am aware of it, and I've been looking for ways to give him what he needs in his "sensory diet" as much as possible. Lately it's been a lot of squeezing, bear hugs, and tossing him onto the bed. He loves that!

Ok, here's the list:

*Hates having his teeth brushed.* I had to hold him down to brush his teeth (because he absolutely wouldn't cooperate), twice a day, for almost two years. He now will open his mouth for me, but it's still very difficult because he won't sit still, bites the toothbrush, or won't keep his mouth open long enough.

*Hates having hair brushed.* Will run around the house or wiggle around to avoid having hair brushed.

*Likes being squeezed/squished.* Likes bear hugs, wrestling, being squished between pillows.

*Loves spinning (himself or on merry-go-rounds or swings), swinging, being thrown in the air, being thrown onto the bed. Likes being upside down.* Will often lie upside down on the couch or bed.

*Loves fast, spinning rides that would scare many/most children his age.* At amusement park, he would love to ride roller coasters and other intense rides. Actually had a ride operator comment that he had seen kids twice my son's age crying on the ride (in fear), and he couldn't believe that my son loved the ride so much!

*Loves climbing, jumping, and all high-intensity movement.*

*Is very high energy.* Isn't tired after hours and hours of intense exercise (e.g. hiking straight uphill for an hour). Isn't tired when most children his age would be tired! Needs lots of outside time daily, at least 1-2 hours is the very minimum. The less outside time and physical activity he has, the worse his behavior is.

*Dislikes long sleeved shirts, but will wear them.* Prefers short-sleeved shirts even when cold. Often gets upset about how his socks feel.

*Reacts strongly to loud sounds.* Has to wear sound-blocking headphones if I vacuum or use the blender. The other day when I was using a metal spatula to scrape baked on food off a metal tray, he said the sound "hurt" him.

*Seems to often have difficulty interpreting other children's intentions,* especially when they approach him. If a child approaches him suddenly, moving quickly towards him, he will often hit or push the child. Seems to interpret other child's actions as aggressive. Will often say, "I NEED SPACE!" but will hit if other child doesn't listen. Recently we were at a pharmacy waiting for a prescription, and a small child (around 1 year old or younger) approached him and possibly grabbed his leg. He very roughly kicked the child away from him, knocking him to the ground, to the horror of everyone watching (me included!). If a child is giggling, this seems to go over well with him, and he seems to understand this is a friendly approach. He also sometimes responds positively to children asking him something, like "Hey, wanna go play tag?" as they approach. If a child approaches without giggling or saying something friendly, that child may be hit or pushed.

*Likes children and wants to "make friends" but has difficulty doing so.* He does want to play with other children but has extreme difficulty doing so, especially with children his age or younger. Often it might start out well then disintegrate into arguing or even physical confrontation (pushing, shoving, hitting). If the other child shows any disagreement or opposes his plans or acts in even a minor confrontational way, he will often overreact and become very confrontational. He has a hard time working out problems with kids, and once they've made him mad, there is pretty much no resolving it. He much prefers older children.

*Has extreme difficulty with transitions of any kind or any change in plans,* even if it might be something that I think he would enjoy. Has difficulty with leaving me to stay with grandparents on the weekend, then has a hard time leaving grandparents to come home to me. Has a hard time being dropped off at preschool, but then also has a hard time leaving preschool and will often tantrum when I put him in the car. He has tantrums (including hitting and other aggressive behavior) when I pick him up from preschool 60-70% of the time. It isn't that he wants to stay there, but he just is really out of sorts most of the time. I am not sure if this is due to the difficulty of "keeping it together" all day or not.

*Is very advanced in his verbal skills and in his motor skills.* Could ride a bike without training wheels before age 4. Was running at 9 months. Was eating with a fork and spoon as an infant and very skillfully uses silverware now. Can shoot baskets and kick/throw a ball with great accuracy. Uses advanced vocabulary and complex sentences.

*Gets easily frustrated, even though his skill level is fairly high.* Gets very frustrated with dressing himself. Prefers me to dress him even though he is capable of doing it. Won't brush his own teeth.

*Often chews and sucks on things.* He may chew or suck on his fingers, the end of his sleeve, something he's carrying (like a backpack strap), the belt on the coat I am wearing, etc. He does this especially when he seems tense or nervous. For example, when I recently took him to see a children's play for the first time, he was very excited, but chewed on his fingers and hands the entire time.

*Has extreme difficulty with new situations, especially if they involve lots of unfamiliar people and activity.* I tried to take him to a gymnastics class, and he absolutely couldn't handle it. He really wanted to try it and would love jumping on the trampoline and doing all those tricks, but he was too overwhelmed and scared, even after we returned to the class several times, and I was very encouraging and calm.

*Doesn't seem to hear me if he is listening to something else*, like the TV. I don't think he is simply ignoring me. I will often have to turn off the TV before I can get his attention.

*Sometimes seems to have difficulty getting a good night's sleep.* Has lots of nightmares. Screams and moans a lot at times when he's asleep. Sometimes he wakes up, and it's very hard to settle him down.

*Usually doesn't sleep more than 8 hours a night, sometimes only sleeps 6-7 hours.* If he has a nap at school, he will have difficulty falling asleep until very late (11pm or later) because his energy level is just too high. If he goes to bed early, say 6:00pm, he will often wake up for the day at 2:00-3:00 am and not be ready to sleep again until 8pm that night. He will often complain about being tired and be cranky as though he must be tired, but rarely is his energy level also low.

*Does seem to respond to the emotions of others, but not always appropriately.* For example, when I am hurt, he will sometimes laugh, though other times he appears concerned and will try to help by bringing me an ice pack or hugging me.

*Will often slam his head or body into me fairly hard, like ramming my back or torso with his head.* He often does this when he needs attention, but this also seems to be a possible sensory-seeking behavior. Starting around 12-18 months, when we'd be lying on the bed, he used to throw himself backwards and slam his head into my face/head. He gave me many split lips and black eyes because I wouldn't see it coming. At the time I interpreted this as aggression, but now I am thinking it might have been sensory-seeking behavior, as it would often come out of nowhere and he wouldn't seem angry.

Sooooo, that's the update. I hope the next one is as upbeat! I really relish these happy/good days. This is what I thought parenting would be like! Not perfect, definitely exhausting, but fun a good majority of the time. So far, unfortunately, that's not what I've had. I am not giving up hope that things won't somehow get better. I am hoping that the OT will help.

Love you guys! Thanks so much for your continued support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Bisou,

Stop thinking that if you try meds, you have failed your son!!!!! SERIOUSLY! I would not have made it as far as your without "caving" by now (I use that term very playfully, in hopes to lighten things a smidge).

But I also believe the time outs are NOT working, the therepy is just not effective enough, and perhaps some different opinions will be extremly helpful. Sometimes, when you are headed done the wrong path, all you need to do is change directions.









Still have meds on the back burner. Just want to try one or two more things to see if I can improve his behavior ENOUGH to be bearable!

I've had a good day or two with him, and when I have these days, it just makes me not want to give up! But I also realize we've had a long-standing pattern of behavior here, and that in another day or two, I probably will be back in hell again. At least I occasionally have a chance to breathe, though!

Meds are still hard for me to accept. Another poster said that if my son needed insulin for diabetes, I wouldn't feel bad about that. Yes, this is true. However, there's one difference in that analogy. In that case, my son could be tested with a test that would definitively show he had diabetes. Insulin would then be administered, and again, a test could show that he was then within the proper levels in his blood. It's so much more cut and dried. With mental health, it's more akin to saying, "Well, your child appears to have some problem with his health, so let's give him insulin and see if that works. Oh. Oops! That made it worse! Well, maybe he has high blood pressure? Let's try a med for that. Uh oh again! I guess that was a bad choice. Maybe a cholesterol med would work?" It's all just trial and error. That's a big part of what scares me. If they could test his blood, say he was low in serotonin, or whatever, medicate him, then say he was within normal levels, I'd feel so much better with that! Of course I know that's not the reality. It just scares me to have my son experimented with to find the right med or dose.

I do want to say that *I definitely believe that some people need meds for mental health and should take them*. I don't look down on people who take meds for themselves or choose to give them to their kids. I do think we're WAY over-medicated in this society, and I think that our overuse of TVs, computers, and video games are probably the cause of a lot of hyperactivity and attention problems in our kids, but I think it's up to each person to decide what's right for themselves and their kids when it comes to medication. I just wanted to be clear that I am in no way critical of anyone who's chosen medication!!!

I may very well be joining the ranks of people whose kids are on medication if we can't get his behavior greatly improved in the next few months or so, depending on how things are going.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spottiew* 
Couple of new ideas for you since you are local to me... Legacy Emmanuel has a free Collaborative Parenting class/workshop/support group every Monday eve- not sure if kids can attend or not. THey also run 'What About Boys' periodically on an evening, it's a small cost maybe. I have not been, but I hear good things. I think the Collaborative uses a lot of Explosive Parenting ideas.

Emily and Lyla (PDX MDC mamas) run a Connected Parenting class/workshop/support group through Zenana Spa. I have not been, but many in the PDX tribe have and found it helpful (though that is not universal). It should be a sliding scale cost, and timing tends to vary every time around. You can email Lyla about it from their website... they would not be into the points system, as they are more Alfie Kohn/Unconditional Parenting without Punishments or Rewards types. There's also a UP support yahoo group for Portland for that style of parenting.

Lastly, I am in town, I have a spirited child, and I would be happy to hang out with you and provide a viewpoint of someone who doesn't have an angelic child and who has tantrums and drama and anger. But, said child of mine may or may not wish to play with yours- he's at the age of wanting to pick his own company and not be dragged around by mom's ideas. I'm willing to try, though. I'm free in the late afternoons, let me know. Jill

Thanks for the local resources! I will definitely check that out.

How old is your son? You can PM me if you'd like.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
This. The more you share, the more he sounds like he may be on the spectrum. In young kids, a lot of the behaviours can look like early onset bipolar - diagnosing young kids is hard.

Hi Joensally:

Thanks so much for all this info!!! I have copied all the links and will be looking into this.

Man, when I am done, I will have an entire library of books about parenting, discipline, and special needs!

I already feel embarrassed when anyone comes over because, geez, it looks like I have some major problems!

Here's just a small glimpse at my bookshelf:

Transforming the Difficult Child
The Explosive Child
The Challenging Child
The Discipline Book
Playful Parenting
The Out of Sync Child
The Kadzin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child
The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers
Raising the Spirited Child
I won't even list the 100 books on MY personal self-help list!!!

Basically, if you were in my house and didn't know me, you'd think I had some serious problems!

Well, to be fair, maybe I do.


----------



## joensally

Have you tried melatonin for sleep? A lot of this may be exacerbated by lack of sleep. Melatonin is natural (well, the supplement is a synthetic version of what our bodies naturally produce) and is widely used and regarded as safe in children. It comes in many forms, including a very mild tasting liquid - my kids take .5 mL, which represents a dosage of 1.5 mg, every night diluted in a tiny bit of water and my son has SPD and is VERY particular about what he'll put in his mouth.

As for spectrum. First, I'm not saying he's on the spectrum, but he does demonstrate some characteristics and a counsellor is not qualified to rule it in or out. Also, it's a spectrum so he could have PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified), where there's defininely PDD but it's more subtle and hard to tease out as spectrum vs something else. Spectrum also frequently co-occurs with other things a lot of the time - so, say, spectrum plus ADHD. Most kids on the spectrum also have SPD.

As for the intelligence piece, many individuals with asperger's are highly intelligent, but you can have asperger's and average IQ. You can also be physically adept, funny, empathetic and a bunch of other things that the stereotype says you can't be.

Spectrum is a tough one - my son is not on the spectrum, but is often mistaken as such. He has many spectrum-like behaviours and proclivities, but just doesn't meet the criteria. I have read extensively on the topic at this point, and each individual is so different.

Someone here recommended the Oasis Guide to Asperger's Syndrome, and it's a great book.

I am glad you're finding strategies that work. Discipline really does mean to teach, and doesn't mean compliance or quick fixes. Have faith that he always means to do his best. If you look at it this way, and you look at misbehaviour as a child being overwhelmed and unable to control himself, sitting down to help him re-centre is actually discipline - you are coaching him on behaviours that calm him and allow him to make better choices in the future.


----------



## joensally

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Hi Joensally:

Thanks so much for all this info!!! I have copied all the links and will be looking into this.

Man, when I am done, I will have an entire library of books about parenting, discipline, and special needs!

I already feel embarrassed when anyone comes over because, geez, it looks like I have some major problems!

Here's just a small glimpse at my bookshelf:

Transforming the Difficult Child
The Explosive Child
The Challenging Child
The Discipline Book
Playful Parenting
The Out of Sync Child
The Kadzin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child
The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers
Raising the Spirited Child
I won't even list the 100 books on MY personal self-help list!!!

Basically, if you were in my house and didn't know me, you'd think I had some serious problems!

Well, to be fair, maybe I do.



















I keep those kinds of books in my bedroom







.

I'm pretty sure all of my links included extensive previews of the books so you may end up not needing to buy them. Kids with SNs are expensive, so any cost savings is a good thing!


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## MissNo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 








Have faith that he always means to do his best.

Thank you for this. I lose sight of this idea so often, and fall back on yelling, and we all know how well that works!









Bisou, one good day is a start. Even if it is followed by two weeks of not so good, you had those hours of calm and happiness. I really like how your son can focus on himself and really articulate his needs. The timer comment is classic, he sounds like an interesting kid.


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## newmum35

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 

As far as discipline goes, I began with attachment parenting and was very committed to the idea. I breastfed him for two years and didn't put him in childcare until he was two years old. We co-slept and still do. I didn't circumcise him because I felt it was unnecessary and violent. I felt like I was doing everything "right" and that he would be a happy, healthy, loving child. I wanted to show him nothing but love and kindness, which is very different from what I got as a child.

Going back to your original post, it sounds like you did everything "right" but yet you haven't mentioned his vaccination status. Having researched for several years now on the issue of neurological damage caused by vaccines, was just wondering if this was even a possibility in your sons case or not. Are you able to elaborate on his vaccination status: vaxed on schedule? non-vaxed? partially or selectively? delayed? etc. (any vaccines for you during pregnancy or breastfeeding?)

Read a great book about a year ago called When Your Doctor is Wrong, Hepatitis B Vaccine and Autism

Described her sons struggles with sensory processing disorder in great detail (and why she believes it began with the Hep B shot at birth and was exacerbated with subsequent shots)

Just another angle to consider in your long journey towards finding healing for your son. I'm also a fan of Dr Moulden as well.


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## sfreed4575

I didn't have time to read all the responses to see if you got this information or not, but I couldn't read your post and not reply. I have a friend who's son at 4 years old was a milder version of your son. I found some resources for her and wanted to share them with you. First is THINK: KIDS http://www.thinkkids.org/ these guys have tons of experience with agressive kids at the time I found it I believe they were advocating no drugs, but I'm not positive... anyway... they are experts in this so better than a local doc who only sees a few cases of this ever in his life... the other is Alfie Kohn http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php he offers books and talks and is probly avail for consultation for a fee.

Hope one of these is helpful.


----------



## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Thanks for the local resources! I will definitely check that out.

How old is your son? You can PM me if you'd like.









He is 5. I will say that very much around his birthday he took a bit of a step up in maturity- but that it doesn't erase many other issues. It's very tiring, his mind is SO ACTIVE and he hates that I can't/don't want to always keep up with him. One thing that has been good for him (cause I'm sure you don't have enough ideas!) is yoga- Believe Movement Studio up here in NoPo has family yoga on wknds for $5 adult, $2 child. I know we need all the positive activities we can, otherwise it turns into the 'beat up the parents' party.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sfreed4575* 
I didn't have time to read all the responses to see if you got this information or not, but I couldn't read your post and not reply. I have a friend who's son at 4 years old was a milder version of your son. I found some resources for her and wanted to share them with you. First is THINK: KIDS http://www.thinkkids.org/ these guys have tons of experience with agressive kids at the time I found it I believe they were advocating no drugs, but I'm not positive... anyway... they are experts in this so better than a local doc who only sees a few cases of this ever in his life... the other is Alfie Kohn http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php he offers books and talks and is probly avail for consultation for a fee.

Hope one of these is helpful.

Hi Sfreed:

Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into this! Though sometimes all the information seems overwhelming, I am of the school of "the more I know, the better," and I just try to take one suggestion/idea at a time (except when it comes to books, and then I buy all 5-6 suggested and read them all at once!







)

It's always good to hear something I haven't heard of before.

Thanks again!









~Bisou


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
Have you tried melatonin for sleep? A lot of this may be exacerbated by lack of sleep. Melatonin is natural (well, the supplement is a synthetic version of what our bodies naturally produce) and is widely used and regarded as safe in children. It comes in many forms, including a very mild tasting liquid - my kids take .5 mL, which represents a dosage of 1.5 mg, every night diluted in a tiny bit of water and my son has SPD and is VERY particular about what he'll put in his mouth.

As for spectrum. First, I'm not saying he's on the spectrum, but he does demonstrate some characteristics and a counsellor is not qualified to rule it in or out. Also, it's a spectrum so he could have PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified), where there's defininely PDD but it's more subtle and hard to tease out as spectrum vs something else. Spectrum also frequently co-occurs with other things a lot of the time - so, say, spectrum plus ADHD. Most kids on the spectrum also have SPD.

As for the intelligence piece, many individuals with asperger's are highly intelligent, but you can have asperger's and average IQ. You can also be physically adept, funny, empathetic and a bunch of other things that the stereotype says you can't be.

Spectrum is a tough one - my son is not on the spectrum, but is often mistaken as such. He has many spectrum-like behaviours and proclivities, but just doesn't meet the criteria. I have read extensively on the topic at this point, and each individual is so different.

Someone here recommended the Oasis Guide to Asperger's Syndrome, and it's a great book.

I am glad you're finding strategies that work. Discipline really does mean to teach, and doesn't mean compliance or quick fixes. Have faith that he always means to do his best. If you look at it this way, and you look at misbehaviour as a child being overwhelmed and unable to control himself, sitting down to help him re-centre is actually discipline - you are coaching him on behaviours that calm him and allow him to make better choices in the future.

Thanks for your great post! I never cease to be amazed at how knowledgeable MDC moms are. Really! It's just amazing how well read and researched everyone is--and so articulate too. As a college teacher (and one who teaches writing and research), it's really a breath of fresh air.


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## Bisou

Hello all my MDC pals:

So, my son and I have been having a few good days!







I am not much of a religious person, but the word HALLELUJAH seems to fit.

It hasn't been perfect, of course, but I have been trying a lot more negotiation and we've been using the more gentle time out approach.

When he starts raging and screaming or if he does something he's not supposed to do (injure or try to injure me in some way, break things, throw things, etc), he has to go to the room and get on the bed and have a time out. He is still resisting this a lot of the time, but he's starting to like it, I think. He lies on the bed and I even let him look at books because this seems to calm him. I always have these conflicted feelings, like "I shouldn't let him look at books. That's like playing! This is supposed to be a punishment!" but then I keep trying to go back to the idea that *the most important thing is getting him to calm down and not continue this behavior.* I keep trying to hold on to that.

The nice thing about this new method is that it is removing me from having to deal with his rage, hitting, etc. The other day he was in the bedroom with the door closed and I was quietly and calmly cooking dinner. It was so nice! It gave me some breathing room and allowed me to calm down.

I always wanted to approach my parenting/discipline with a gentle touch, but when my son's behavior only got worse and worse and more and more aggressive, I was told by friends and professionals (therapists) that it was my gentle approach that caused his aggressive behavior. I thought, "Well, what I am doing obviously isn't working, so they must be right!" I went with the hardcore time out approach, time out at ALL costs. I was told that if I didn't make him stay in time out and hold him there, and that if I ever gave up, my son would surely be in the criminal justice system by the time he was 12, or even younger!

Now I know the improvement of the last few days isn't perfection or permanent, and I am sure we will have bad days ahead of us. But I do have to say that I feel, somehow, like we might be moving in a better direction.

The other day he got extremely angry because I turned off a TV show that he wasn't supposed to watch. He absolutely exploded. But, then I watched him go into the bedroom and SLAM the door so hard it shook the walls. I had to go into the bedroom a few minutes later, and he was lying on the bed, quietly reading a book. When I entered the room (I had to get something from out of there; we share a bedroom), he blew again and absolutely screamed at the top of his lungs, "GET OUT RIGHT NOW! I HATE YOU!" etc etc etc. I said, "Ok, I just needed to get this, but you don't need to scream at me." *I have to admit that the screaming and slamming the door did anger me and seem inappropriate. I really wanted to crack down and put him in a time out the way we used to do it because I was angry and thought his behavior was so disrespectful and over the top. It really took every cell of my being to say, "Ok, so it's not good that he slammed the door and screamed at me in a disrespectful way, but he is basically putting himself in a time out and trying to calm down. That is a GOOD thing." So I just let him be, and he emerged a bit later calmed down!*

It's so hard trying to find the balance between working with your child and being a wishy-washy pushover. I constantly worry about that. Am I being strict enough? Am I teaching him that it's ok to scream at me and say awful things to me and there will be no consequences?

But then I go back to the thought that *it's better for him to scream and yell and then go into his bedroom to calm down than for him to hit me, bite me, spit on me, and for me to then lose it and scream at him, or even worse, yank him around or even hit him.*









I was raised in a family where even an inappropriate facial expression (rolling the eyes, for example, or one that conveyed sarcasm or a lack of respect) could result in a massive beating. We were "spanked" (e.g. beaten until bruised, often from the backs of the knees to mid-back) for any transgression. If, after the "spanking," we walked too loudly ("stomped" in a rebellious fashion, according to dear old dad, showing defiance) when going to our rooms in tears, we would be brought out again for another round of spankings. It's hard to come from that background and try to be reasonable, especially with the explosive/aggressive/stubborn son that I have.

It's also hard when I have to try to reconcile my feelings/experiences with the opinions of friends, family, therapists, doctors, and the million books I've read, all of whom/which offer different ideas and approaches. It's so incredibly difficult!

But I am not giving up yet.

Unfortunately, I just found out my son and I will have to move again, for the second time in a year, because the person who owns our apartment is getting foreclosed. (Not exactly sure how to word that!) We moved in May/June 2009 because someone who lived across the street from us (but someone I'd never talked to) decided to break into our home to rape me and assault me with a box cutter. Thankfully he was unable to get in, but my son and I endured 30 minutes of complete fear and terror waiting for the police to arrive as he tried to break the door down.

Having to move again has definitely triggered me, making me feel unsafe again. Right now we live on the 11th floor of a high rise, which feels very safe and secure. I know the move will be very hard for both of us, and I am upset to know my poor boy will be living in his FOURTH home in about 3 years or so. We need some security. My son really has a hard time with changes, and I hate moving too, so this is hard. But I need to just accept that this is what it is and just move forward and try to be positive!

Anyway, overall, things are improving right now. Yesterday we had our first day in about five days that he didn't need a time out. In the previous three-four days, he had a time out on his bed, but stayed in there and maybe only had one or two in a day (as opposed to our usual HOURS and HOURS of time outs!), so this is a big improvement. I have to think about that and focus on that!

Thanks to all of my MDC angels for being there for me and my son!


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## fbsurvivor

That is just a horrible story. What happened to your son at daycare is horrific. I want to cry just reading what you and your son have been through.

I know how you feel about the meds. After I was on meds (anti-depressants) as a teenager, I said, OK for an adult, but not a kid. But you are in an extremely difficult situation. What I would suggest is getting several opinions from different psychiatrists. If you can find a psycho-pharmacologist, I would try one of them as well. They specifically deal with meds and will have more experience with different ones. I wouldn't want my kid to become a science experiment. I know I've been one and so has my father and so have many of my relatives.

Have you read the Spirited Child book? That might give you some everyday tools. Also, how much have you looked into schools? I think so often with a case like yours, finding the perfect school, or the perfect therapist, or the perfect babysitter makes a world of difference.

I'm sure you've already tried some of this, but I would think finding outlets for his aggression is so important. He's old enough to be in sports. That might help. My husband has somewhat of a temper and violent computer games (I know not the normal advice) help him. It gives him an outlet. Also, having a man around might help him. Have you tried one of those "big brother" programs? A guy might be able to understand the rage and redirect it in a positive way.

My daughter (17 mo.) is only high-needs, but another thing is that the rage she has comes from not being able to control her environment. I try to teach her how to do everything herself and give her tasks and responsibilities (yes, even as young as she is). You might have to start really really small, but I bet responsibilities like feeding the cat (?) might make him feel more in control.

I'm a little worried about your relationship with your parents. I know you need the help, but at what cost? Being around them probably makes you angry and your son might pick up on that. And do you leave him alone with them? Also, do you see any of your son's father in your son? Does that in any way make you feel differently about him? That's another thing your son could pick up on. I'm not a shrink and I'm probably talking a lot of nonsense, but you might ask yourself if you think anything environmental is having an impact.

Also, these things are so genetic. It sounds like your son's got stuff coming from both sides. The more you can find out about the boy's father's problems, that will probabably help. Maybe you have already, but I wanted to check.


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## fbsurvivor

After reading your list of traits, I wonder if you ever read the Fussy Baby book by Dr Sears. It's like your son is high-needs but to an extreme. You know it is so strange. My daughter (17 mo) has always hated putting clothes on (along with a host of other things), and now that she can talk she says "ow" when I put clothes on her. It makes me feel so awful. I always got the sense when she was an infant that she was more sensitive to pain.

Also, the head butting, my brother used to do that to my mother after watching Ram Man on TV. My mother was an only child and she had no idea what to do. There is some level violence in boys, I think (much worse in your case), and finding an outlet for it is important. That's why I'm just wondering if having a male play therapist might be helpful. My son used to throw pretty bad tantrums (not like your son), but he is perfectly normal now.

Another thought, I read a magazine article awhile ago, that they are studying whether a component in dirt acts as an anti-depressent which would explain why your son loves playing outdoors at your grandparents. I've heard other high needs babies love being outdoors. Outdoor exercise I think would be great. In Portland, there's tons of that, climbing, kayaking, hiking, etc. If your son could get into a program for one of those activities he might really thrive. Outward Bound for a four year old







. The suggestions about nature therapy also sound great. I now my father, lifetime of depression, spent a lot of time in his childhood, hanging out in the woods, getting lost and finding his way back. He's a tree trimmer part of the year and he always does much better during that time.

I know how you feel about the meds, completely. And although, after being on anti-depressants as a teen (when all of your emotions are all over the place), I felt that it was a mistake, I also feel like I might have had a lot more positive experiences in my childhood if my parents had accepted and treated my depression earlier on and not lived in denial about it. It's such a hard decision.

The social responses to other kids may be a kind of social anxiety. He sounds afraid of other kids, so finding ways for him to have positive, non-threatening experiences is probably going to be key.

I think UptownZoo has one of the best responses. When you find someone or a group of people in your same situation it will give you the strength you need.

Also, check out http://www.bringchange2mind.org/, and the facebook group.

I totally get you on the exhaustion from being entertaining and redirecting all of the time. No one talks about how much that takes out of you.


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## peaceful_mama

I've followed this a little bit and I think it is *awesome* that you have come across something that is working for you!









I wanted to say that a lot of the things I read in college (EC/SPED major, unfinished, long story) advocate exactly what you are doing, for children in general, but *especially* for those who are more agressive/expressive with their anger than most. Setting up an area where they can go to 'cool down' WITH ACTIVITIES THAT HELP THEM DO THAT. And beginning by taking them there when you see they need it.

I think it's a HUGE sign you are on the right track if he is taking *himself* there! And I am going to 'steal' this idea for dd, age 3, who is starting to throw things and slam doors. Like you said, it is much better for me to find a way to help both of us calm down than it is for me to get angry and end up yelling and/or hitting. (And it DOES DOES DOES address the behavior in the fact that you are not allowing the behavior to continue. That's the mantra I'm using on myself "I am NOT allowing the behavior to continue. I AM doing my job.")


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## MissNo

As a mom of a girl who does NOT accept change well, I am always torn about how and when to let her know about changes. I'll be checking back to see how you put the idea of a new place to your son. Great news to hear that he is responding to your approach! As for other people, the heck with them!


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## pianojazzgirl

Hi Bisou,

I've followed your thread from the beginning. I guess I haven't posted yet because I felt like I have no real advice or insight. But I certainly have been thinking of you guys, even to the point of lying awake in bed the other night trying to brainstorm ideas for you to help your son calm down (this after reading one of your posts when he was basically saying "please help me find a way to calm down - I don't know how to do it myself"). I have to say that your new approach to time outs seems like it just might be exactly what he needs. I know you're feeling some doubt about it so I wanted to (finally!) post to support you in what you're doing. You are a fantastic, amazing, awe-inspiring mama. This will certainly sound banal, but: keep up the good work!


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## fbsurvivor

Just a couple notes: 1. If you read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson, and some other books, time out is not supposed to be punishment. In fact positive discipline is supposed to be about getting away from rewards and punishment. Time out is supposed to be about the child learning to calm down, and hopefully, as your son is doing, calming himself down. So, really, whatever calms him down is how it is supposed to be. The other thing those books talk about is making the kid feel capable and that helps with frustration tolerance. The more often he can calm down himself, the better he'll feel about himself. Maybe far down the road he could actually meditate or do some breathing exercises. I'm already starting those with my daughter, in hopes that she will be better able to deal with her temper than her father. 2. You might also try doing things in stages. Maybe right now you can only discipline him for major transgressions, but later on you might be able to work up to something bigger. You're doing great, especially considering the horrible background you came from. One thing I noticed about my husband (who has a temper), from day one of my high needs baby, was that he heard all of my dd's screams as anger, but I didn't. I always remember that my daughter, no matter what she is doing or saying, is only an innocent child and has little idea of what she is doing or saying. Maybe some kind of mantra like that could help you when you're really feeling angry. Also, underneath most anger is fear, so it might sound like anger, but really he's afraid. One last thing. I come from a negative environment and find it really hard to say positive things, so you may as well. I've learned both with kids and dogs that you have to always praise all that good behavior, no matter how minor. That's hard for me to do, but it goes a long way.


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## debe

I agree with what fbsurvivor has written about the reward/punishment thing- it goes along with the Alfie Kohn recommendation mentioned earlier. I would also like to add John Holt in there. I know it may seem slightly off topic as he is most known to unschooling folks, but it seems that being an intelligent person makes it sometimes to really hard to fit in and to figure out ones space/place/dynamic in places that feel so insensitive. Maybe some activities as could be found on a blog for unschooling- like Sandra Dodd. http://sandradodd.com/unschooling -There is tons of stuff here. I go there and always find something i did not see that seems to be pertinent to the situation at hand. This is a specific section I find useful: http://sandradodd.com/life

And this opinion that I have is likely no help: I feel that your situation illustrates quite well the lack of real respect and support that mothers and children receive in North America.
I find myself - especially of late being a single mom of a 3 year old with all that that implies- that most of our problems with aggression and anger and tantrums, etc. would be rather successfully managed if I could just be mom- I mean not have to rely on daycare- not have to do everything to some schedule rather than take the time needed to work out a fear or a clingy response- not have to worry about losing my employment or my home-I do not know if I am being clear, but mom work is so hard sometimes- well all of the time but sometimes it is so very challenging- even without the added stress that you have experienced so much of lately. I really wish you were able to take a few years just to be a mom- Yeah i know it is fantasy - but I do wish there was a safety net for mothers and children---
I do wish you a contentedly successful end to your 'series of unfortunate events'.


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## debe

I do not know if I was really very clear- I am not trying to say you should do anything- like stay home or homeschool or or whatever- I think rereading my post that it looks like I am suggesting that - I just mean to say that there is some really good information on theose sites- but they just happen to be a certain type of site---


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## lovestolearn

Apologies for not reading all the posts! If you haven't checked it out yet, I would suggest exploring *EFT* (Emotional Freedom Techniques) http://www.emofree.com It's very effective for prenatal trauma, birth trauma, PTSD and depression (among other things!) If it appeals, I would suggest some sessions with a good practitioner experienced in your issues to start you off--and then you can do it yourself. PM me if you want more info.
Blessings & Hugs on your journey...


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fbsurvivor* 
That is just a horrible story. What happened to your son at daycare is horrific. I want to cry just reading what you and your son have been through.

I know how you feel about the meds. After I was on meds (anti-depressants) as a teenager, I said, OK for an adult, but not a kid. But you are in an extremely difficult situation. What I would suggest is getting several opinions from different psychiatrists. If you can find a psycho-pharmacologist, I would try one of them as well. They specifically deal with meds and will have more experience with different ones. I wouldn't want my kid to become a science experiment. I know I've been one and so has my father and so have many of my relatives.

Have you read the Spirited Child book? That might give you some everyday tools. Also, how much have you looked into schools? I think so often with a case like yours, finding the perfect school, or the perfect therapist, or the perfect babysitter makes a world of difference.

I'm sure you've already tried some of this, but I would think finding outlets for his aggression is so important. He's old enough to be in sports. That might help. My husband has somewhat of a temper and violent computer games (I know not the normal advice) help him. It gives him an outlet. Also, having a man around might help him. Have you tried one of those "big brother" programs? A guy might be able to understand the rage and redirect it in a positive way.

My daughter (17 mo.) is only high-needs, but another thing is that the rage she has comes from not being able to control her environment. I try to teach her how to do everything herself and give her tasks and responsibilities (yes, even as young as she is). You might have to start really really small, but I bet responsibilities like feeding the cat (?) might make him feel more in control.

I'm a little worried about your relationship with your parents. I know you need the help, but at what cost? Being around them probably makes you angry and your son might pick up on that. And do you leave him alone with them? Also, do you see any of your son's father in your son? Does that in any way make you feel differently about him? That's another thing your son could pick up on. I'm not a shrink and I'm probably talking a lot of nonsense, but you might ask yourself if you think anything environmental is having an impact.

Also, these things are so genetic. It sounds like your son's got stuff coming from both sides. The more you can find out about the boy's father's problems, that will probabably help. Maybe you have already, but I wanted to check.

My son's dad isn't involved in his life, so I don't have much access to finding out more about him, and he was always very resistant to seeking counseling of any sort since he was a macho Latin male. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some sort of diagnosable mental illness though.

I definitely don't feel like I see my son's dad in him, at least not in a way that I'd resent. He has his dad's dimple in one cheek and even has some behaviors that his dad had, but I tend to find that more cute than distressing, though it does make me sad at times because I wish his dad could see him and appreciate the qualities they share. It definitely doesn't upset me though.

I know he is definitely impacted by all the transitions he has in his daily life. He gets upset when I drop him off at daycare (no matter how I've tried to do the transition in a million different ways) and again when I pick him up. He gets upset going to stay with grandma and grandpa during the weekends, then again when they bring him home.

Yes, he does stay at my parents' on the weekends, usually at least 24 hours, because I have so much work to do that I am unable to complete it all during my work week. I am a college teacher with a million papers to grade, so I will spend 15 hours or more on the weekend grading papers. Also, even though dealing with my parents really SUCKS big time, if I didn't have a break from my son, I think I would literally go insane. It's hard enough to have him six days a week, all by myself. It's also so great for me to have a morning when I can sleep in, at least one day a week, and get things done without him screaming at me and throwing tantrums. I often can't even clean the house or do any chores because he is so out of sorts, so I do most of that on the weekends. I'd prefer to spend my "me time" hanging out with friends or doing something fun, but right now it's work and housework, which isn't fun, but needs to be done.

Thanks for your advice and thoughts!!!!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
I've followed this a little bit and I think it is *awesome* that you have come across something that is working for you!









I wanted to say that a lot of the things I read in college (EC/SPED major, unfinished, long story) advocate exactly what you are doing, for children in general, but *especially* for those who are more agressive/expressive with their anger than most. Setting up an area where they can go to 'cool down' WITH ACTIVITIES THAT HELP THEM DO THAT. And beginning by taking them there when you see they need it.

I think it's a HUGE sign you are on the right track if he is taking *himself* there! And I am going to 'steal' this idea for dd, age 3, who is starting to throw things and slam doors. Like you said, it is much better for me to find a way to help both of us calm down than it is for me to get angry and end up yelling and/or hitting. (And it DOES DOES DOES address the behavior in the fact that you are not allowing the behavior to continue. That's the mantra I'm using on myself "I am NOT allowing the behavior to continue. I AM doing my job.")

Hi Peaceful Mama:

Thanks for your supportive words! I definitely find myself second guessing everything all the time, like "Is having him sit on the bed and read books really a good enough consequence for him punching me?" but I keep saying, over and over, *"If this is going to make him calm down and act appropriately, this is a good choice. If this is going to prevent me from screaming at him and dragging him across the floor to a time out where I have to physically restrain him, this is a good choice."* The hard thing with my son is that things will work for a while, sometimes even brilliantly, then stop working.

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how this will work in public. We actually had a horrible incident yesterday at the park. On Fridays, my parents usually come and pick my son up and bring him back on Saturdays. He loves being at their house and has lots of fun galavanting around in nature, but he hates transitions, especially leaving me. I picked him up from school yesterday (preschool, I should say), and since it was really nice, we got some take out dinner and went to the park. I always take EVERY opportunity to have him outside, as he could exercise ten hours a day and not be tired! He was really happy about this idea, as he always is with any outside activity. We got to the park, ate, and then he played for a few minutes (10-15) and the sun started going down.

Suddenly, massive clouds of mosquitoes descended on us. The other parents and I were all complaining, and each person had LITERALLY 15-20 mosquitoes covering their bodies. It was disgusting. In the midst of this, my parents arrived, and my dad said, "We are not staying out here! We have to get out of these mosquitoes!" I agreed and said we should go. None of us wanted to be getting bit a million times, and I already had welts all over the place. But my son is NOT good with transitions, and this transition not only meant that he had to leave the park immediately, but that leaving the park also meant going with grandma and grandpa and leaving mommy because they had met us there to pick him up.

Immediately he said, "I don't want to go" (or I should say "screamed" instead of "said") and burst into tears. I got down on his level, hugged him, and said, "I know you don't want to go, honey, but these mosquitoes are biting us, and we can't stay out here! Also, it's getting dark!" He just screamed and cried and said no and was definitely in hitting mode, so I decided to do the "We're going to the car" and just walk towards the car. Usually he will scream and cry (of course prompting everyone to look at me and give me those "Wow! Control your child!" looks) but he will still follow me.

This time he went running off in the opposite direction, towards the road, towards a very steep hill, screaming and crying. I followed him over there, and he was just completely and totally, insanely, out of his mind--screaming, crying, and just flat out hysterical. My dad had stormed off in anger, saying "I am not going to deal with this! This is ridiculous!" and my mom had followed me over there by my son. But when I made a comment to her under my breath, where my son couldn't hear, that "This is not normal! This is so embarrassing. How am I ever going to find a boyfriend who'd put up with this???" because I was just frustrated and upset, she said she would walk away too if I didn't stop talking like that. (I love how I am 36 years old and still get punished by my parents!) I tried talking to my son, but he was too out of his mind to listen. I tried holding him, but he was too out of control to not hurt me. We waited for a few minutes to see if he would calm down, and then I just picked him up perpendicular to my body (so he couldn't hit me) and carried him to the car while he fought me. We just had to get out of those mosquitoes!

It was ugly and embarrassing and just awful. Both my parents were mad at me, which never makes sense. What am I supposed to do? I put my son in the car and got in the back seat with him, trying to calm him down, and my mom stormed off, having her own temper tantrum. My dad was sitting in the car and trying to talk to my son, but he would just scream back at him. It was not good at all. And of course I don't want to leave my son on that note!

He did finally calm down and then it was time for me to leave. He was sort of ok, but my mom said he was extremely angry when they pulled away from my car and pushed her hand away as she tried to pat him.

It's in these sorts of situations that I really second guess myself. Usually transitions like this where he's doing something he enjoys, like playing at the park, work well. Unfortunately, due to the mosquitoes, we couldn't make a smooth, slow, and calm transition. It seems like there really isn't anything we could have done differently. I thought about saying, "Why don't we go back to our house or go out to eat?" so my son could have a bit more time with me before he had to leave, but I knew my parents would be really angry about that idea. They would feel like it was a big hassle to have to drive across town to our apartment or to a restaurant and think it was ridiculous to not just leave the park, so I didn't even bring up that idea.

*I hate feeling like I am. . . . . I don't know what the right word is. . . . . acting so apologetic towards him, or almost like I am letting his anger control me, or like I am cowering in fear, in the midst of his tantrum because I am trying to get him to calm down. I feel weak, like I am accepting what he is doing.* Part of me feels like saying, "Look, this is NOT acceptable. We are leaving the park right now, and you knock it off. I will not put up with this behavior." But I know that won't change anything. It also didn't change anything to try to sympathize with him or explain the situation. It was just hideous.

Any ideas about what I could have done differently in this situation? Or was it just destined to be crappy because of those damn mosquitoes?


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl* 
Hi Bisou,

I've followed your thread from the beginning. I guess I haven't posted yet because I felt like I have no real advice or insight. But I certainly have been thinking of you guys, even to the point of lying awake in bed the other night trying to brainstorm ideas for you to help your son calm down (this after reading one of your posts when he was basically saying "please help me find a way to calm down - I don't know how to do it myself"). I have to say that your new approach to time outs seems like it just might be exactly what he needs. I know you're feeling some doubt about it so I wanted to (finally!) post to support you in what you're doing. You are a fantastic, amazing, awe-inspiring mama. This will certainly sound banal, but: keep up the good work!

Hi Pianojazzgirl:

Thanks so much for saying hello. As I've already said several times before, it just amazes me that I have such great support from people I've never even met. It means so much!!!!! I can't believe that you were lying in bed thinking about ways to help us. That is just so kind.









Knowing that there are people out there thinking about us, worrying about us, praying for us, and hoping the best for us really does renew my faith in humanity. While there may be some awful people in the world, and I've certainly come across my share in the last year or two, you guys remind me that there are lots of loving, caring, patient, generous people too. Thanks for that!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fbsurvivor* 
You're doing great, especially considering the horrible background you came from. One thing I noticed about my husband (who has a temper), from day one of my high needs baby, was that he heard all of my dd's screams as anger, but I didn't. I always remember that my daughter, no matter what she is doing or saying, is only an innocent child and has little idea of what she is doing or saying. Maybe some kind of mantra like that could help you when you're really feeling angry. Also, underneath most anger is fear, so it might sound like anger, but really he's afraid. One last thing. I come from a negative environment and find it really hard to say positive things, so you may as well.

This is a really good observation and reminder. I was my parents' first child, and I know my mother had a hard time with me. I didn't want to breastfeed and would push her away, and she's told me many times that she interpreted this as me hating her and not wanting her for a mother. I've said, "But I was an infant! Infants don't hate people!!!" To this day she resents me for my behavior as an infant and a young child and will say, "You never liked me, from the time you were born!" It's so ridiculous, but looking back on my son's earlier months, I can see how those feelings seeped into my thoughts as well. He went through a terrible phase from 12-18 months where he was splitting my lips open and giving me black eyes on a regular basis by throwing himself backwards and slamming his head into my face. After the first few times, I would think, "Why does he want to hurt me? Why does he hate me? I don't get it!" because it seemed like he must hate me; otherwise, why would he do something like that? I'd try to remind myself that he was a baby and too young to even understand that concept, but I definitely started thinking he didn't like me.

It's hard now, too, because he can follow up his hurtful physical actions with hurtful words. He is constantly telling me he hates me, I am fat, I am ugly, I am the worst mom ever. I always had these visions of my child looking up at me with love in his eyes saying, "Mommy, you are so beautiful!" Many children find their mothers beautiful even if popular opinion would consider them ordinary or even unattractive. It's one of the beautiful things about kids. Unfortunately, my son hasn't reached that stage yet.

It's a good reminder that his anger is often about fear. I know he hates leaving me, and I don't blame him. He's faced a lot of scary things in his four years, including two incidents of daycare abuse and someone basically trying to get into our house to kill and/or torture us. I am sure the world seems like a scary, unsafe place for him. It's just hard that it is directed at me, like I am the hated, evil culprit, and I try soooo hard to make his life happy, fun, and joyful. I just do need to remember that IT'S NOT ABOUT ME. He doesn't hate me. He doesn't want to hurt me. He's just scared, and rightly so.

Thanks for the reminders. Maybe I need to make a little list and post it somewhere so I can read through it when he gets out of control, like "He doesn't hate you, he is just scared. He has been through a lot. Stay calm so you can help him be calm." I should do that today!!!

Thanks again for the great post.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *debe* 
And this opinion that I have is likely no help: I feel that your situation illustrates quite well the lack of real respect and support that mothers and children receive in North America. I find myself - especially of late being a single mom of a 3 year old with all that that implies- that most of our problems with aggression and anger and tantrums, etc. would be rather successfully managed if I could just be mom- I mean not have to rely on daycare- not have to do everything to some schedule rather than take the time needed to work out a fear or a clingy response- not have to worry about losing my employment or my home-I do not know if I am being clear, but mom work is so hard sometimes- well all of the time but sometimes it is so very challenging- even without the added stress that you have experienced so much of lately. I really wish you were able to take a few years just to be a mom- Yeah i know it is fantasy - but I do wish there was a safety net for mothers and children---

*Oh my God, I agree with you SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH!!!!!!!!*

I really feel like mothers/parents, especially single parents, really aren't supported at all in this society, especially when it comes to childcare options. I think while some kids do well, and even thrive, in daycare settings, others suffer.

I do feel guilty that my son faced two different incidents of abuse, one very serious, in a daycare setting. I always planned to have children and work out a schedule with my spouse where one of us could work during the day and the other at night or weekends, so we could take care of our kids ourselves. Finding myself pregnant and single wasn't part of my plans!

Now I know there are great, caring daycare providers out there, but it can really be the luck of the draw. Every place my son went to, I carefully screened, including checking with the state for complaints, posting online, showing up unannounced, and interviewing parents whose children attended there. I did everything you're "supposed to do," but it still turned out ugly for my son.

I think part of the problem is that childcare is SO expensive, so you're often left with leaving your children in a place where the providers are undereducated (often 18, 19 years old) and paid minimum wage. Even then, parents are often paying $1,000 a month. I am getting all political here, but it seems like if people are so concerned about poor quality childcare and children having all these behavioral problems, maybe our government needs to subsidize childcare so it can be high quality, given by educated providers (with at least an AA in early childhood ed), yet affordable for parents. Other countries do this!

Instead our country prefers, in many cases, to blame single mothers as the cause of all of our nation's problems with children. Really we have little option, other than work and put our kids in childcare, sit at home in poverty and on Welfare, or live with family (which isn't even an option for some people). It would be great if workplaces that had more than a certain number of employees were required to provide on-site, high quality childcare (even if employees had to pay a portion) where moms could go on lunch breaks and breastfeed, play with their kids, and check on them. There are so many things that we could do to improve this situation when it comes to kids and parents.

I was really reluctant to put my son in daycare when he was young. I stayed home with him for the first three months, then went back to work when he was 3-6 months old and left him with a nanny, a personal friend I had known for years. She was wonderful, but when she decided to go back to school when my son was six months, I looked at daycares and left each one of them crying. I felt like I was visiting orphanages. It was just heart breaking! I decided to move in with my parents, and we lived there from the time he was six months old to the age of two years old. I loved spending that time with him, but living with my parents was hell. My career was also going into the toilet as I could only teach a class or two, I couldn't afford medical insurance nor could I qualify for state-sponsored insurance because I made just over the max income, and I was slowly losing all my friends, so I had to move back to Portland and work full time. I thought that my son was old enough to do well in daycare and even enjoy it, but only four months into it, a daycare worker at a large chain daycare intentionally injured his testicles by probably twisting them (according to the doctor's assessment and mine) as some sort of sick punishment or something, removing a good portion of the skin and causing massive swelling in the process. She was 18 years old, inexperienced and immature. It's possible that my son was fighting a diaper change or hit her and she retaliated, but we will never know exactly what happened. Of course nothing he could have done would make something that horrific warranted or acceptable. My son said, "The teacher hit my penis." I just hope that she has to live with the memory of what she did to him, and that it haunts her for the rest of her life.

These are such hard decisions that single mothers and even some couples must face. Many single mothers/fathers don't have a choice to stay at home with their kids, and single parents often can't afford the kind of care they wish they could for their kids. Even when they can afford an expensive daycare, as I could, this is no guarantee of anything! I think somehow our society needs to change their views of how we treat children. The way they are treated and raised affects their entire lives. I will never know how my son might be different had he not faced the abuse he's faced.

It really seems like this is something our country needs to address, but many people take the view of "Well, YOU decided to have children. Why should I have to take care of them?" I get so tired of hearing this "Every man for himself" philosophy applied to everything from health care to insurance to child raising. Don't people realize that we all live in this world together and if someone's child is damaged, we all pay the price?

I used to live in a neighborhood with many single mothers. One of the mothers would go to work and leave her three-year-old son alone, or sometimes in the care of his ten-year-old sister. Another young child, around eight, was left alone all night while her mom went to work. I became a surrogate mom to the three-year-old, who would often come outside wearing only underwear, no clothes or shoes. I'd watch him and play with him and my son, and when we had to go inside for the night, he would cry, and it would break my heart. I don't agree with the decisions that these mothers made, but I also know that the expense of daycare is overwhelming for many parents. Who knows, maybe she thought her kids were better off alone than in the care of strangers, but I don't know that I'd agree that is logical.

As you can tell, this definitely hits a nerve for me. I really wish our nation would address this problem and not just blame single mothers for having children. These kids will be our future and we need to nurture, love, and protect them. I often think of how children are raised in primitive tribes. There is no separation between family and work. Children surround their parents as they go about their daily tasks. It would be so wonderful if somehow our society could shift to allow the lines between family and work to blur just a tiny bit. I've heard of some workplaces allowing new mothers to have their babies in a crib right in their cubicle. While part of me wonders how they'd really get much done, I still think this is wonderful. I'd bet our children would feel much better if they could be closer to us, even going to work with us where they knew we were just a hallway's walk away. I bet this would improve the caregivers' attitudes too, knowing that parents could drop in at a moment's notice.

Ok, enough daydreaming about a world with ideal (or more ideal) childcare. Heck, it would be great too if moms could be paid to stay home and raise their kids, but I know the chances of that happening are more than one in a trillion, so I will just set my sites on improved childcare, for now.









Phew. And some of you guys think you are long-winded!!!


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## fbsurvivor

What I see in the park incident:

Your son needs comforting and empathy. I would try more questions, asking what he feels and what he wants, and what's going on with him.

Your parents are toxic and you need to ignore their parenting ideas and stick to your guns.

Forget about trying to control your son.


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## fbsurvivor

Sorry, that sounded kind of curt. Your father reminds me of mine (and brought of some painful feelings from my childhood) and it's exactly the opposite of what your son needs. If you're sensitive and emotional, you need your feelings validated, not negated. Especially if that is the only male figure in your son's life, you need to get your son away from your parents. Your son needs to feel that his feelings are important and that someone cares. You have to see beyond his behavior and find out what he is feeling. The behavior is just a reaction to the feeling. If you have a good therapist, they would tell you this.

I totally recommend Naomi Aldort's book, Raising Our Children and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber.

The fact that you're recognizing the stuff about transitions is fabulous!

What I learned in some of the books I read is: 1. validate and empathize- "I know this is frustrating, makes you angry, you're probably feeling..." 2. invite cooperation- The goal is not control, but to get the child to want to cooperate with you. 3. Never get into a power struggle- that means prevention at all costs.

In the park incident, although it seemed really fast, there was still plenty of time to give him a long explanation and possibly give him some choices. Example: We can go right now, or you can run around for 5 more minutes. You can also ask him, "We're all geting bitten by bugs, what do you think we should do about it?" It's also about empowering the kid.

With your parents I really think that you have to set the rules about how you want your kid treated, and if your parents won't go along with it, they're going to have to be cut out of the picture. I really think your son's emotional health is at stake, especially considering the stuff you describe your parents doing to you as a kid.

I also want to say that I SO agree with you about daycare, and everyman for himself. Being a working mom with a husband is not as hard as being a single mom, but it's still really hard. I cried when I looked at daycares as well. Luckily I didn't have to go with 18 year olds and we went with what the daycare providers' kids were like. There is just no support for moms these days. I know I feel like an island so much of the time.


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## tiffani

I wanted to agree with fbsurvivor, in regard to your parents. would they go into counseling with you? seems like there is just too much baggage there to ignore, and I would either insist on family counseling or, if you can, just have a massive heart to heart discussion with them about what you know your son needs, and how they are going to have to either support you or you won't be able to be around them. there is so much guilt and manipulation going on in your family, and that has to be really hard for your son. your parents sound wonderful in a lot of ways, and very supportive of you in the obvious ways, but emotionally, they're not, and that needs to change.










oh, and things like the mosquito incident just happen sometimes with volatile kids, don't get too upset. I might have suggested to my parents that they could go wait in the car, that we'd be over in a minute, and then do a calmer transition with your son without all the intense baggage that's going on between you and your parents. kids pick up on that stuff -- my son is always CRAZY around my parents until we all relax a little. thanks, buddy!







I try to keep in mind that my parents are not exactly experts, and their opinion of how I'm parenting is totally irrelevant to my life. it's hard to get there, but get there if you can, it feels great! it is so tempting, when we're parenting in front of judgemental individuals, to DO something about our child's problem behaviors -- something obvious that will show everyone how IN CONTROL of the situation we are. that is not what kids need, though, they need to be treated with respect and guidance -- we are the parents and we are "in charge", but we can guide them and help them gently when they struggle -- you don't have to be a doormat or a dictator, you can simply be his mom, and help him figure out this crazy world.

I know it's incredibly difficult, but try not to follow the popular line of thinking that "if he's like this NOW, just IMAGINE what he's going to be like at 13!!" ...in my experience, children get MORE mature as they grow, not less.







yes, the pre-teen and teen years can be nutso for lots of kids, but trying to gain control of your son is not the answer. teaching him how to control himself is key, and it sounds like you're doing just that. many hugs to you, you're doing amazing work here.


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## Katrinaquerida

I am so sorry for all the troubles you have had, you are doing a wonderful job! I want to reccomend the book "Raising the Spirited Child", it helps me to look at the challenging behaviors that my son has in a more positive way! Hang in there!


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## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 

But when I made a comment to her under my breath, where my son couldn't hear, that "This is not normal! This is so embarrassing. How am I ever going to find a boyfriend who'd put up with this???" because I was just frustrated and upset, she said she would walk away too if I didn't stop talking like that.


See, to me it *is* perfectly normal. And there *isn't* much you can do. You can't reason because he's so upset. He has to be un-upset first to understand the leaving logic, which in this case meant out of the bugs. Take him out of the bugs, then let him be upset, then talk and get to feel better and have a better transition. Which probably wouldn't work with the parents, but do they want an upset kid for 90 minutes? You and they can't expect him not to be upset- that's not fair. He's upset, that's real. You can move him then talk. Doesn't matter than other kids wouldn't be upset- don't compare.


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## ejshames

Wow.. what a tremendous response to you Bisou from all the wonderful women online.

As I was reading through your post, my 18 year old daughter was sitting beside me, reading right along.

She said..wow.. that is what it was like when I was younger.

YUP.. it was.

I have come out the other side of what you are going through now, at least with her. I have 4 kids, and my youngest, who is now 6 is also a firecracker. lol.

Here are some things that I did to keep me sane when years ago..when I my (now 18 yr old) was young. ...

1.. I read EVERYTHING I could get my hands on.. many of the titles that you have been suggested to read..

Positive Discipline
Raising Your Spirited Child
The Dr. Sears Parenting books series
Your Explosive Child
Love and Anger ( by Nancy Samalin)
Books by Barbara Coloroso
and many more.

I also used homeopathic remedies. Chamomila is a classic remedy for kids who hurl things and are really angry.

However, when I took her to a Classical Homeopath,we discovered her constitutional remedy was different. We went to the homeopath for many years.. and I think that helped so much.

We also had a punching bag in the house.. helped both her and I . whew.
( when I got angry.. or frustrated, I was able to take it out on the punching bag.. it felt nice! )

I also learned how to 'read' the situation better. Knowing that we were going to make a transition from one place to another, I would give advance notice, but that rarely helped.. but I did it anyways. I don't remember the preemptive things I did to stop the behaviour.. there was not much to do... she was going to be her.. no matter what I did or said. NO threats, or punishments, or else's or anything I would try would be good. I was not in the frame of mind in those days to be in a loving space when she had her meltdowns.. the best I could do was just hold myself together in one peice

I can SOOO relate to your emotional state when your child is acting out in ways that are not 'socially acceptable.'

My parents rarely spent much time with her when she was young,, and still.. they see her as somebody they just don't get, and have a hard time relating to each other.

BUT.. here is the other perspective..

As time has gone by,, she has matured, and so have I.

She now says that she was not a happy girl to feel so out of control.. and not be able to stop. She wished she would have been able to.

I felt I did EVERYTHING I possible could to help her. I refused to give her drugs.. and so used alternative remedies .. which I think have indeed done much good.

Now, I have a different perspective how to handle situations. and am more capable of doing so too. I have a 6 year old as well.. who also gets into meltdown mode.. and now I know,, that the recovery time is FASTER...
wayyy faster....

If i keep my cool and am grounded. And offer love and hugs. She just melts into me.

However, my youngest is a very different kid. My older daughter would not have come near me when angry.. and still does not when she is upset.

Keep on trying what works for you and your son. Be gentle with yourself.. and let your parents issues be THEIR OWN. try not to take them on. Same with all the onlookers. Who cares about them.? If they don't have a kind thing to say to help you and your son, then ignore them too.

Peace and gentle light to you..
EJ


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## karika

I read your post and I agree that medication is not the answer. Your child is most likely allergic/ intolerant of certain foods. You did not mention in your first post if he had been vaccinated and or exposed to heavy metals. I do not want to waste time reading through this whole thread, as so many are saying medicate, I want to tell you something else entirely that may help you. Medication may seem to help in the short term, but it will damage his brain and its functions. IMO things created in a lab are what got us into our messes, and adding more will not help at this point. Some people see improvement with a pharmaceutical yes, but it is really just a drug. If you want to help to heal his gut, and I am sure this is what it is after reading your OP, there is a way to do it. First of all, make sure everything is organic that you intake. No food colors, no caffeine, no HFCS. Then the number one thing to remove from his diet is casein. This alone will give you remarkable results. Also remove gluten, soy and corn (the last two because most are contaminated with GMO even if they claim they are organic, the GMO is allowed to exist even within organic to a degree, I have websites if anyone needs them). Also cut out canola oil for the same reason. Try to go to a more raw diet, fruits and mostly veggies, green juice in morning etc.... This is the GFCFSF diet that has helped so many families. It is helping dd1 also. I saw a nearly immediate difference after cutting out casein (We were already organic with no chemicals). So many points in your OP screamed of a casein problem, the problem at the breast while an infant especially. I belong to a group on yahoo called gfcfkids, it is very helpful.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/GFCFKids/
http://www.gfcfdiet.com/NewpageDirectory6.htm
http://www.talkaboutcuringautism.org/index.htm (click on the tab for gfcf diet also)
http://www.kathysrecipebox.com/?p=32 this is a blog that has a way for you to check off allergens and what you want to make to give you recipes..

I know some readers may be thinking this is a crazy idea, but it is true! Behavior is directly linked to what one is eating, and simply changing it can change everything. It should be the first thing tried, then add in the proper supplements for whatever else needs tending to... Try to get a DAN doctor in your area and I bet you will get more what the child needs (of course that depends on the DAN) go to this site to find out about DAN drs...

http://www.generationrescue.org/

Please try this diet and supplements before you try medication, he has already been through so much. This is so easy to eat this way too, I love it and have never felt better.

with love to you and your son,


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## ejshames

After just reading Karika's Response, I forgot to mention how food influenced our family's behaviour too. ( I say FAMILY.. because I was also affected by food too).

We were a sugar ( all sugars.. no white or brown, no honey, or maple syrup...no eating dried fruit just like that.. no juice, however there was small amounts of datepaste for cakes and sometimes brownrice syrup on occassion for cakes or cookies.).. no wheat, no dairy, vegan for the most part, no processed flour/rice etc.

AND despite all that.. she was still reacting emotionally to many things.

BUT.. if she did eat any of those things,, it was much much much much worse.

Karika,, what is a DAN dr?

Peace and light
EJ


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## MissNo

Bisou, just wanted to tell you that your son's park reaction is typical for my oldest. There has to be a transition, or it isn't pretty. Still being positive and hoping for continued good progress for you both!


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## wytchywoman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejshames* 
Karika,, what is a DAN dr?

Not Karika but I can answer this. DAN stands for Defeat Autism Now. A DAN! dr is a medical doctor that specializes in holistic treatments, usually for autistic people but it can be for anyone. Some of the standard things they implement are various supplements and enzymes, gluten free/casein free diet, and chelation treatment for mecury exposure through vaccines. There are a lot of other things they do but those are the main ones. I agree with the food impacting behavior. Food coloring is a huge no no in my family, especially for DS 1. He just can't tolerate it. I'm of the mindset that special diets probably aren't going to fix everything, but they certainly aren't going to cause any harm and usually help, at least a little bit.


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## Bisou

Ok, so I hate to be here with more bad news, but unfortunately I am.







I am just SO upset right now.

*I just got a horrible phone call from my mom saying that my son is out of control and they need to bring him home RIGHT NOW.* He is staying with them for 24 hours (Fri night to Sat night), as is our usual schedule, so I can work. She said they don't want to do this anymore, that this is not their responsibility, even though she's told me a million times that "We are in this together." When the %$#@ hits the fan, we aren't in this together. It's all just a big act. My parents are so emotionally messed up, it's just awful. And when something goes wrong, they heap everything on me, as if it's all my fault.

How is it my fault? I decided to give birth to him. It's just ridiculous. At the time I found out I was pregnant, it was almost miraculous because I was told I was infertile, and that had been proven true over many years. I was already 31. I thought for a split second about an abortion because I knew I would be doing this alone as his dad was mentally unhealthy and unreliable, but I had always wanted kids, and the idea of missing my (possibly) one chance to be a mother was more than I could bear. I also am not entirely comfortable (personally) with the idea of having an abortion, though I support that decision for others. Adoption was even MORE impossible of an option. Seriously, if I had to give my child to someone else, I would have probably killed myself. I just could not deal with the heartbreak. I understand why some people do that and I admire their strength, but I can't imagine living with the pain of that decision. So my only choice was having my son. Of course I never knew my son would be the way he is, and if he was a "normal," well-adjusted, emotionally healthy child, my mom would never be saying these things. It's my fault because I had this child and he has problems. How is that fair? I had no control over this. Had I given birth to a child who was calm and serene at all times, of course I wouldn't be blamed for anything. I just don't understand how I always seem to get dealt the crappiest hand!

My son has been doing pretty well for the last week or so, but we also recently found out we have to move in the next few months, and I think this is really scaring my son because of what we went through last May (a very serious attempted break-in---see my posts above). I don't know what's going on today at my parents' place, but they've never brought my son home because he acted so terribly. Actually, usually, to the contrary, they will say that he was a perfect angel and just glow about how much fun they had with him, or that they had a minor problem, and then they just talked it out and it was all fine and dandy.

Apparently this weekend it's not going that way.

I know many of you have said my parents are toxic, and it's true. They are definitely unpredictable and emotionally abusive at times. Sometimes I will call in distress because my son is out of control and my mom will be very sympathetic and understanding and try to be comforting (something she's not very good at). Then other times she will say, "I can't take this. Do you know how hard it is for me to hear about how bad he is being? It just tears me up inside! It makes me ill. I feel like I don't even want to continue on" blah blah blah, as if her hearing about my son being out of control and me being upset is worse than actually experiencing it and having no one to call for help or escape. I would just kill (figuratively) to have someone to call when he gets like that who could actually come over and help me or give me a few minutes to step outside, but I have no one.

So, my mom, being upset that my son is completely out of control, and keep in mind there are TWO of them, calls to basically attack me because he is MY son and MY responsibility and I was the one who chose to have him, not them. So hurtful and just mean. I know he isn't technically their responsibility, and I've never forced anything on them. They always offered to help, even insisted on helping and taking him overnight. But now that they are apparently seeing a bit of what I have to deal with, though I have to do it completely ALONE, they are furious and resentful and completely blaming me. It's my fault because I gave birth to him, and they shouldn't have to deal with it. Yet I know that when they are elderly and need help, whose "responsibility" is it to take care of them? Mine. Isn't this what a family is supposed to do?

I just wish there was some sort of support network or hotline for parents where a trained volunteer or two could come to your house and help you in times of crisis like this with your kids.

I am just so upset at this call. Of course this quickly escalated into a big fight. I was saying, "This is how I feel when I call, and I am only one person! You are TWO people and you can't handle it. I have no one to bring him back to when he acts like this. I have no options." She replied, "But you're his mother." Yes, that's true, but it doesn't mean I can handle it by myself. No one should have to. Obviously he can be too much for even two adults to handle.

She was completely furious (at me, of course) and she said my dad was "sitting there, completely distraught and depressed, just staring off into space."

Of course I am sympathetic to what they are going through. I have been there hundreds of times with him. But to call and just attack me with "This is not our responsibility. This is YOUR child. YOU were the one who decided to have him" is just cruel. So many times they've said there is nothing wrong with him and that he's just a normal, healthy boy. They've said that they absolutely will not support me in giving him medication, and if I do, if anything goes wrong, they will heap blame on me because it will be all my fault. So I have not only the worry that something could happen to my son if he took medication, but if it does, instead of sympathy and support that "You were doing what you thought was best for your son and trying to help him," I will get, "We told you not to give him medication. Now look what happened! This is all your fault!"

On top of being upset because my mom wouldn't really tell me what was happening (she would only say something like, "You know, he's doing what he does"), I am a college teacher and next week is finals, so I had about 40 papers I was trying to grade today. This was the time I had set aside to get this done. And now I don't have this time. Saturday is my biggest day for work since I can have all day, from the time I get up until I go to sleep, to grade papers and do work. My parents usually pick up my son on Friday night and bring him home on Saturday night at bedtime, so he's often asleep. So on top of the verbal attack and being worried about what happened with my son, now I have the HUGE stress of worrying about how I am going to get my work done and what I am going to do.

The sad fact is that I simply cannot do this alone. Maybe after this weekend, I won't have any choice, and I honestly don't know how I would do it. For one, I wouldn't be able to get my work done. I would be in serious trouble. I have no one else who can help me with my son. I can't imagine having him all the time and not having a night and day to myself where I can sleep in, clean, and do work without having to deal with the constant stress of worrying what's going to happen today and walking on eggshells all the time. It is just absolutely awful.

I don't know why I always seem to have the worst luck. I have emotionally abusive parents, a child who is completely out of control, his father being completely absent from our lives (emotionally, physically, and financially), and no other people to turn to for help. I hate being tied to my parents and having to rely on them, but if I don't (or if they decide to stop helping me), I honestly don't know how I would make it. I absolutely can't imagine making it, and that is just terrifying to me right now.

I am just terrified.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karika* 
Please try this diet and supplements before you try medication, he has already been through so much. This is so easy to eat this way too, I love it and have never felt better.

with love to you and your son,

Hi Karika:

Thanks for the info. I've been hesitant to try a diet like this because we are strict vegetarians, so it would basically mean we would be eating only fruits and vegetables and no protein at all. My son detests beans and nuts, and his favorite foods are pasta, cheese, pizza, and that sort of thing. We do eat primarily organic, and he eats lots of fruit and veggies.

People have also asked if he was vaccinated, and I hate to admit he was. I read all the research on both sides and it seemed like there was just as much convincing evidence on one side as there was on the other. I thought, "Well, vaccines have almost eradicated diseases that used to kill hundreds and thousands of people, so that must be a good thing" and sort of went with that. He did have a serious reaction to the pertussis vaccine, so I told his doctor I didn't want him to have any more doses of that, and I didn't have him vaccinated for flu and a few other things, but he probably got most of his vaccines. I was told that they no longer contained even trace amounts of mercury, because I asked his doctor about this.

I can't really imagine what we'd eat if we eliminated all gluten, dairy, and soy. It seems like that leaves us with just veggies, rice, and fruit? He is also super picky about things he doesn't like. I'd be afraid he just wouldn't eat, and when he doesn't eat, his behavior is WAY out of control. It's worst when he's tired or hungry and is much better after he's eaten.

I guess if it would dramatically turn our lives around, it would be worth it, but right now it seems like it would add a lot more stress because he would be really mad at me if I took away everything he likes to eat! I mean REALLY mad.


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## Bisou

Hi Tiffani and Fbsurvivor:

Thanks to both of you for your great advice. *I have a question*: What happens when you get down to the child's level, explain what needs to happen, sympathize with them and their feelings ("I know you don't want to go") or even give them a few more minutes, but then they are still completely enraged? I am the kind of person who reacts with a major allergic reaction to mosquitoes and gets huge welts that last for days and are super painful, so it wasn't an option for me to stay out there indefinitely. Another five minutes? Yes. Another twenty minutes? No. *So what do you do when, despite all your best efforts to transition and move your child towards the car, it's not happening and he is not calming down at all?* This is kind of where I was.

Also, I hope I didn't give the impression I want to control him. I guess it's more along the lines of wanting him to control himself. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I don't know ANYONE personally who has a child like my son. I know some of you guys do, but none of my friends or family members have children who act anywhere near the way my son does. Since I am a single mom, I constantly get blamed for his behavior because, "Well, you know, she is a single mom." I honestly don't think it has much to do with that. For one, most of my friends with kids are single moms, and their children don't act like this at all. People are so judgmental and it's just so unfair. Like in the posting I wrote a little while ago today with my parents completely FURIOUS at me because he's out of control, furious at me because I was the one who gave birth to him. Keep in mind that I am an entire state away from where he is, yet I am still responsible for his bad behavior. They expect me to "control" him. They can't, but they say, "YOU are his mom." I don't know what magic trick they expect me to try. I've tried just about everything. *At this point, I think I have tried almost everything except extreme diet modification, naturopathy, and pharmaceutical medication.*

Well, thanks to everyone who is reading this. It really helps me to at least be able to write about how I am feeling and get it out. I have no one to call for support. I tried to call my son's therapist, but she was in the ER with a laceration to her head (!!!) so we couldn't talk, understandably. I am just so upset, still, about what my mom said to me. She was upset, angry, and frustrated about my son's behavior, so what did she do? She called me to take it out on me. Nothing like family support!









I have thought about this idea often, but I think we need to go back to living in tribes. This way of living that we have is SO unnatural and unhealthy for most of us. Imagine the support we'd have if we were surrounded by 20, 30, 40 family members and friends on a daily basis? If we needed to work and have help with our sick child, and we had ten aunties and grandmas (or uncles and grandpas, not to gender discriminate) to call on? My life would be so much easier. If I wasn't afraid of cults, I'd join a commune.

I just feel like something in my life needs to give, somehow. There is NO balance. There is only work and the hell, even though I cringe to say it, of parenting this child that I don't know what to do to help. I love him more than anything, but he stretches me WAY beyond capacity every single day, even on good days.

I just don't know how to fix it. Changing my career isn't an option. I've put ten years into this career, I do love my job, and I have worked my way to the top of the pay scale and to the top ranks of seniority. It's just not a good job to have as a single parent.

I hate to resort to medication just because I am an overworked, stressed out, exhausted single parent. If I was a stay at home mom, would I be able to help him better? He has a terribly hard time leaving me and lately will cry when I leave him anywhere other than with me.

I am just rambling and rambling. Confused. Sad. Angry at my parents, life, my bad luck. Scared. Feeling lonely. Lost.

Now crying. . . . .

I just don't know how to get out of this pit I keep finding myself in. I try so hard to be optimistic, a good mom, a good teacher, a good friend, yet I feel I am failing on so many accounts.

I need help and support, but I have none. I know people sometimes say, "The only person you can rely on is yourself," but I don't think this is how people are meant to live. It's just not natural or healthy, I don't think.

I need different parents. Parents who are supportive, kind, and loving, but obviously, I can't replace them. I have what I have. I don't know. I am just lost.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissNo* 
I meant to add, does his therapist have any ideas for you? Does she know of any playgroups, _anything_ to help you get by without your parents?

The problem is in the amount of time I need to get my work done. When my parents take my son on the weekend, they will usually pick him up around 6-7pm. I will often work from 6-7pm until midnight, getting in 5-6 hours of work. I will then get up the next morning and work from about 8am to midnight or 1:00 am the next day, getting another 16-17 hours of work, so *I am doing as much as 21-23 hours of work between Friday and Saturday on the weekends!* My parents usually bring him home around 8pm on Saturday, but since he's asleep 90% of the time, I am able to just keep working until I reach complete exhaustion.

The amount of money and hours that it would take to add an extra 23 hours of childcare into my week . . . . . I just can't see how I'd make that happen.

Also, he does love going to his grandparents' house, and usually it's pretty good for him, except for this weekend, obviously. My parents have never wanted to bring him home because he was so out of control, so I am scared to hear what happened. Usually they say he was wonderful and when I explain these awful tantrums and explosions to them, they say, "Well, he never acts that way for us!" Well, he did this time!


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## MissNo

Bisou, I am sending you many good thoughts and strength to get through this time. I am so upset with your parents, but this may be a blessing in disguise. Can you try a site like sittercity.com, to find someone to help you for a few hours? Is there anyone nearby in a parenting group perhaps who can help you for just a few hours, or even a university student?

I can't imagine how frustrating it is and how stressful, to have those that are supposed to love and assist you being so hurtful. Please hang in there, and have faith in your choices. You are a wonderful mother.


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## Bisou

Hi ejshames:

Thanks for your post. It's good to know that your daughter grew up and doesn't have as many of those issues now, as a young adult. My son often worries that he will be in jail when he's a grown up because he will be a "bad guy." He worries that he will do awful things and not be able to control himself. I try to dispel this terrible image he has of himself, but that thought scares and saddens me too.

I hope that somehow I can find a way to work with my son and help him (and me!) have a better life. Neither one of us can go on living like this.

Thanks for your support, you and everyone!


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## MissNo

I meant to add, does his therapist have any ideas for you? Does she know of any playgroups, _anything_ to help you get by without your parents?


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## Bisou

Thanks Miss No for your reply.

It's pretty hard to leave my son with people he doesn't know because of the issues he has. He is very insecure and scared of people, which is understandable considering he's been abused in two different daycare settings. He has an extremely hard time being left with people he knows and likes, and he would be absolutely TERRIFIED to be left with someone he doesn't know. When I've put him in situations like that before, when I return he just absolutely rages for hours. He's a very scared little boy. I think this is where a lot of his rage comes from, actually. He is scared and sad and frustrated and it comes out as rage. Unfortunately, I am forced to put him in situations where he will be scared, sad, or frustrated because I have to work. It's even extremely difficult for him to attend the daycare he currently attends, which I am confident is a safe place where his caregiver is extremely kind and patient, and when I come to pick him up, he is often extremely emotionally disregulated for several hours afterward. It's almost like he's angry at me for leaving him there.

Anyway, I am just absolutely DREADING seeing my parents. When they are in this sort of mood, they are just absolutely awful. My dad won't talk to me or look at me, and my mom may make some more awful comments. UGH. If only I could replace them with some different people. They have almost always been there for me PHYSICALLY (they show up to things, help me move, help with my son), but emotionally? Never. They've never complimented me or have been proud of my accomplishments, but instead only criticize me for my failures and inadequacies.

In fact, just this week I qualified for a home loan for the first time and at a MUCH higher amount than I ever would've dreamed possible. I found out I have a high credit score, and I got a great fixed 30-year mortgage, all by myself, as a single mom who doesn't even receive a penny of child support. This was a HUGE accomplishment, and I was so proud of myself. Of course my parents were totally negative about that and not at all excited for me. My mom, the queen of negativity, is always saying that I need to be more positive and optimistic, yet when something good and exciting happens, they are not happy or excited for me at all. Their emotional scale runs from extremely negative at worst to neutral at best.

Honestly, I wish I felt like I could handle my son all on my own, but it would mean I'd never have a night alone, never be able to sleep in on the weekends, and I'd have an EXTREMELY hard time getting my work done. I work almost two full-time teaching jobs to make enough money to support us, so honestly, I am trying to fit at least an 80 hour work week into 30 hours of daycare. This is why I am so desperate for help on the weekends, not only for my personal sanity in having some alone time, but to get my work done.

Somehow something needs to change. If only I could win the lottery and be able to stay with my son more and not work so much! Sigh.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissNo* 
Bisou, I am sending you many good thoughts and strength to get through this time. I am so upset with your parents, but this may be a blessing in disguise. Can you try a site like sittercity.com, to find someone to help you for a few hours? Is there anyone nearby in a parenting group perhaps who can help you for just a few hours, or even a university student?

I can't imagine how frustrating it is and how stressful, to have those that are supposed to love and assist you being so hurtful. Please hang in there, and have faith in your choices. You are a wonderful mother.


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## BetsyNY

I've followed your story but I can't seem to remember--has he been diagnosed with anything? A diagnosis could help you access some respite programs.


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## tiffani

hugs mama, that's rough.







I would guess that your son is a really sensitive kid, and his grandparents attitude is hard on him. I would strongly suggest working less, if you can. you mention that you're at the top of your pay scale, can you get by on just one of your jobs so you don't need weekend care for your son? It sounds like being with your parents too much is hard on him, and the financial sacrifice you might make in working less would be worth it to distance yourselves from them a little. I'd also still push for family counseling with them, or at the very least, voice to them the feelings you're sharing here with us. It sounds like they are trying, at least, and that's a good sign that they are probably open to fixing things between you. People of their generation are notoriously emotionally retarded, and they might welcome a chance to warm things up with you. I can't remember, are you an only child?

so how did it go with them when they brought him home?


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
I've followed your story but I can't seem to remember--has he been diagnosed with anything? A diagnosis could help you access some respite programs.

No, he hasn't been diagnosed with anything yet. I keep asking his psychologist, but she doesn't feel there's a clear diagnosis. We are seeking testing and treatment through occupational therapy, but we just started that, so no results yet.

I just realized I am paying (WITH insurance!!!) $200 a month just for his therapy. Yikes. This is on top of paying for insurance for him and doesn't even include my therapy co-payments. His are $20 for one therapist and $30 for the other, every week! YIKES.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
hugs mama, that's rough.







I would guess that your son is a really sensitive kid, and his grandparents attitude is hard on him. I would strongly suggest working less, if you can. you mention that you're at the top of your pay scale, can you get by on just one of your jobs so you don't need weekend care for your son? It sounds like being with your parents too much is hard on him, and the financial sacrifice you might make in working less would be worth it to distance yourselves from them a little. I'd also still push for family counseling with them, or at the very least, voice to them the feelings you're sharing here with us. It sounds like they are trying, at least, and that's a good sign that they are probably open to fixing things between you. People of their generation are notoriously emotionally retarded, and they might welcome a chance to warm things up with you. I can't remember, are you an only child?

so how did it go with them when they brought him home?










Yes, I am at the top of my pay scale, but as an adjunct (aka part time) college teacher, that isn't saying much! We often make as little as 50% that a full-time teacher makes, and with no benefits or much fewer benefits. For example, if I wanted both my son and I on medical insurance through one of my employers, I'd have to pay $700 a month for it! Basically I work twice the amount of a full-time instructor to make the same amount of income, or less. Quitting one job would mean halving my income, and I just can't see that happening. I am also in the process of buying a reasonably priced home, which is exciting and will give us stability in terms of not having to move all the time.

I've thought about reducing my workload before, but doing so at one place would mean losing our insurance and any access to retirement, and doing so at the other (since the second job pays twice as much as the first one) would mean losing the majority of my income. It's complicated. I don't recommend working as an adjunct period, but it's a terrible job for a single parent! When I began this ten years ago, I was married and thought it would be a great job for a married mother due to the flexibility. That marriage only lasted a year, and I continued in this field. I definitely never expected to be a single parent doing what I do!

As far as my parents go, no, I am not an only child. I have a younger brother who was really the trouble child in the family. My brother was arrested several times as a teen, had a few DUIs, and he even made a bomb and blew it up at our high school, but this was pre-Columbine and Kip Kinkle days, so it wasn't taken that seriously. But despite the fact that I had no record or arrests, didn't use any drugs, was a straight A student, received four full-ride scholarships to different universities for my singing talent, started working at age 14 while attending school and taking college classes on the side, etc etc etc, I was always the bad kid. It never made sense. My parents are the types of people who point out what I do wrong, but NEVER acknowledge what I have accomplished. I know I am an adult and I should be over it, but there's something about not having your parents' approval that can take you right back to being five years old.

My son is definitely riled up right now though. I spent the day with him today (I usually have two full days a week with him when we are both home together), and he is just screaming all the time, wild, and really irritated. Honestly, I think what's triggering a lot of this is the fact that we have to move again, not even one year after the attempted break in/rape/assault. We are both really getting triggered by this with thoughts like "Where will we live? Will it be safe? What if something bad happens there?" Where we are living now seems extremely safe, is in a super fancy area, and the 11th floor of a very secure high rise building. Our apartment is small (only one bedroom) and expensive, but I chose this place because of the security and low crime rate. Unfortunately, as I think I mentioned above, the person who owns this (we are currently renting) is getting foreclosed, so we have to move. I decided that since we HAVE to move, no matter what, I should see if maybe I can buy, so we're in the midst of that process, but it's very emotional: scary, exciting, and everything in between. Since I am not rich, we can't have everything, so it's either choosing a place in need of much remodeling in a really nice area, or a new, beautifully finished place in a less nice area. I am still sticking with a secure apartment-style locked building. I just can't stomach being on the ground floor where someone could decide to break in. Just can't do it. I hope someday I will get over that, but at this point, if I even see a sliding glass door (where my attacker tried to get in), I am completely ill.

Anyway, rambling on as I am likely to do.

I was able to keep it together with my son today though, which was an accomplishment! He was really just explosive today over who knows what. I guess I just need to remind myself that our life is just really stressful right now. It seems like we haven't had a break. It's always been one thing after another. I am hoping that after we move we will enter a time of more stability and peace for the two of us.

Of course he's entering kindergarten next year which will be a challenge, most likely. I am trying to remain optimistic about it, but I know that even if things go better than expected, it will be stressful for him.

Goodnight lovely MDC mamas.


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## Bisou

UPDATED:

I had posted that someone sent me an extremely cruel PM, laced with profanity and calling me a "breeder," among other much more cruel terms.

I did contact the administration and that person was immediately banned for this behavior.

One thing I LOVE about MDC is the support and love and caring that most members show towards other members, so I think this is what made the PM so hurtful. I opened it thinking it was another kind mother emailing me to give me some advice or support, and instead I got the complete opposite!

I need to remember though that this was only one (obviously messed up!) person out of bunches of you who've helped and supported me, so thanks for that.


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## Bisou

Also, posting an update!

Things have been MUCH better in our household lately. I have been almost afraid to post for fear that I would jinx us, but the last week or two has just been great! I am not sure exactly what is happening or why it's happening, but I am just trying to go with the flow, and I am happy to do so!

We've gone days without a significant tantrum or a time out. He's being kind to the cat. He's cooperative, even listening!

We have only been to one session of occupational therapy, but we will be beginning those on a regular schedule in the next month or so.

I have been definitely trying hard to be very calm with him because I know we both escalate each other's behavior. He screams and hits, I scream back. It's not a good thing, and I know this, but I was soooo worn down with everything.

It's so amazing to actually ENJOY my child, to pick him up from daycare early because I want to spend time with him! Wow. What a concept!!! It's been just great.

I hope that we can keep this going forward. I do know that I have REALLY worked on keeping my emotions under control, and have also worked on giving him more compliments and praise. Every time he does something the way I want him to, I am trying to make a really big deal about it. As many of the books I've been reading explain, we tend to make a big deal out of the things we don't want them to do, then practially ignore the wonderful things they do. I've been trying to really turn that around!

It also seems like having him have a time out in his room on his bed is working much better.

Right now, for a change, LIFE IS GOOD!


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## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Also, posting an update!

Things have been MUCH better in our household lately. I have been almost afraid to post for fear that I would jinx us, but the last week or two has just been great! I am not sure exactly what is happening or why it's happening, but I am just trying to go with the flow, and I am happy to do so!

We've gone days without a significant tantrum or a time out. He's being kind to the cat. He's cooperative, even listening!

We have only been to one session of occupational therapy, but we will be beginning those on a regular schedule in the next month or so.

I have been definitely trying hard to be very calm with him because I know we both escalate each other's behavior. He screams and hits, I scream back. It's not a good thing, and I know this, but I was soooo worn down with everything.

It's so amazing to actually ENJOY my child, to pick him up from daycare early because I want to spend time with him! Wow. What a concept!!! It's been just great.

I hope that we can keep this going forward. I do know that I have REALLY worked on keeping my emotions under control, and have also worked on giving him more compliments and praise. Every time he does something the way I want him to, I am trying to make a really big deal about it. As many of the books I've been reading explain, we tend to make a big deal out of the things we don't want them to do, then practially ignore the wonderful things they do. I've been trying to really turn that around!

It also seems like having him have a time out in his room on his bed is working much better.

Right now, for a change, LIFE IS GOOD!

Glad things have been going well, your seeing the mood shift due to the season changes, google "march madness bipolar" things improve around end of Feb, March then start sliding again around Sept.

ETA: Interesting observation, this thread started back in Sept...


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## wytchywoman

Bisou, there are a couple forums "out there" that make fun of the posters on this one. It's sad and disgusting because they are obviously members here for the sole purpose of trolling for people to make fun of. It's truly pathetic, but there you have it. Report them to the mods and then put them out of your mind. They aren't worth it.
AND.....I'm so glad that things are going well for you two.


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## tiffani

wow, I have never heard of nasty pm's like that, I'm so sorry that happened to you!!

glad to hear things are going well with your little guy, hope it is a lasting change!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

I am trully appalled that someone would do such a thing to a clearly emtionally fragile mother. I bet that person got a nasty yeast infection right after posting that message to you, OP, because I firmyl believe what goes around comes around.

SO glad to hear things are going better lately.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Glad things have been going well, your seeing the mood shift due to the season changes, google "march madness bipolar" things improve around end of Feb, March then start sliding again around Sept.

ETA: Interesting observation, this thread started back in Sept...

Hi Satori:

I hope that this is a long-lasting change and not just a seasonal change for my son. I've continued to ask my son's therapist (a child psychologist) if she thinks he has bipolar disorder, and she continues to say no. Right now they are focused on sensory processing disorder, and after becoming aware of this disorder, I find that this REALLY fits his behavior. Kids with sensory processing disorder often have serious behavioral problems and difficulties interacting with others.

I don't know what the future holds for my son. It could be that he is diagnosed with a mental health issue of some sort at some point, but right now I am just going with what I have and hoping that he doesn't have a condition that will continue to be problematic for him for the rest of his life. I am hoping that we've turned a corner.

I asked him why things are going so well and why we are "getting along so well," and he said he is "trying harder" and that I am "not talking on the phone so much." So I think he feels like I am paying attention to him more. I've been REALLY trying to praise him as much as possible and to keep my own emotions (anger, frustration) in check.

I am hoping that over the next few months, maybe I can put this thread to rest and be writing about other things or giving support to other moms instead of having so many difficulties of my own to write about.

I hope you and your families are all healthy and happy!!!!!!


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## Bisou

Just a quick update and thanks to everyone who wrote and was supportive of me over the past months.

My son is still doing REALLY well. Though I've made a few changes, I am shocked that his behavior is THIS different. I know that there is still a chance things could change, but this is the biggest change in his behavior I've ever seen since he was about 18 months old, and without medication! Woo hoo! (Not to disparage people whose children are on medication. I think if you need it, you need it, but I also think there are many kids on medication in the US who shouldn't be or don't need to be.)

*My son has gone weeks without tantrums, and the one or two he's had have been totally minor!

*When I ask him to do things, he will now often say, "Ok, mom. I am listening to you because you're my mom and I am supposed to listen!" This has happened many times. I just about fell over, like "Who kidnapped my child? Has he been abducted by aliens and replaced with this new child?" And he is totally proud of himself when he says this and is doing exactly what I am asking him to do. WHAT????

*He is being really sweet, loving, concerned about my feelings, and just really wanting to make me happy. Honestly, I just can't believe this! He is always hugging and kissing me and telling me how much he loves me. It's what I always imagined parenthood would be like! Yes, he still fusses and whines and has occasional tantrums, and I always expected that a child would be this way, but I thought there would be a lot more good times. I feel like, at least for now, we are hitting those good times!

*While it seems out of nowhere, there are a few things that I have changed.*

*I am continuing to follow the point system explained in Transforming the Difficult Child, but not as strict as it's explained in the book. Every night we review his behavior and he gets points for everything he's done well. As the book says, I try to really play up the things he has done well, and only minimally mention the things he didn't do so well. I think it's really positive for both of us to focus on what he is doing well. It's hard to say how much that's affecting his behavior, but I think it is definitely helping. It seems like his self-esteem is better.

*I am buying my first house, something I didn't think I'd ever be able to do as a single mom, so that's really exciting. I think this has helped my overall mood and optimism, and I think it's rubbed off on my son. He knows I am excited and happy about this, and he is too! I am finding myself being really upbeat, happy, singing, dancing around, and I know this is good for my son too!

*I have stopped almost all working when he is around. I used to take him to a weekly evening meeting I had for a magazine I was working with. There were other kids there and they all played together, but apparently he hated it. He just wants to be home and hanging out with me at night, and that one night a week was just not working for him. He's mentioned several times that he is acting nicer because we aren't going to the meeting and he gets to spend that time with me instead. I am also rarely talking on the phone, texting, or doing anything else. It's a sacrifice, but when I compare that to my life of HELL with him before, it's totally worth it. Both of us are much happier!

*He has started occupational therapy for sensory processing disorder, and though we've only gone twice, he really loves it.

*I have changed our time out method to having him do time outs in the bedroom instead of in a chair where I had to restrain him and physically fight him. It escalated things for both of us to the point where I'd be unable to control myself (after HOURS of tantrums) and I would blow my fuse too. It was just a mess. Now he goes in the room, I close the door, walk away, and take a breather. He seems to calm down in his room, and I don't have to deal with him for a few minutes. He doesn't find that scary and has learned to regulate his behavior in the bedroom. He will often grab books and lie on the bed and read. (He's only in there 3-4 minutes or so, a little more if he's still really upset, which hasn't happened much lately!) I think not having to physically battle with him has made a huge difference for both of us. The only thing that happens occasionally is he doesn't want to stay in the room, and I will have to keep putting him back in there, but that has only happened a few times, and I've been able to stay calm. Things are literally a million times better!

We have some big transitions coming up. We will be moving to our new place, which is always stressful, and he will be starting kindergarten in the fall. But I am hoping that this good streak we are on will continue. I feel like we are really building our relationship and I feel a bond with him like I've never felt before. I used to (I hate to admit this) dread picking him up from daycare most days because it was frequently just awful to be around him, even though I loved him. Now I am excited to see him and will even pick him up early from school sometimes because we are enjoying our time together. It's just soooo amazing!









Again, thanks all of you for reading my story and giving me all the ideas I've tried. So many of them have been helpful.


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## Grace and Granola

What a wonderful update! Praying that this continues for you and better days ahead.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

So so so





















to read this update. Please continue to update for us through your move. I pray that this light will continue to shine down on both of you.





















You both deserve this happiness sooooo much.


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## wytchywoman

I'm so glad for both of you. That's awesome


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## sgmom

THIS IS AMAZING!! I am BEYOND thrilled for you! Although I do want to quickly comment on this quote below. While I think it's fantastic that his behavior has changed, it bothers me slightly that he's acting nicely "for you". It's not just because you're his mom and because he has to. It's because you love him very much and you want to make sure that he's safe. You also feel sad when he feels sad or angry and you want to help him, but when he fights with you the way that he used to, it's hard to show him how much you love him because he used to fight so hard that he was unable to listen to you. You can't help him when either one of you is out of control.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
*When I ask him to do things, he will now often say, "Ok, mom. I am listening to you because you're my mom and I am supposed to listen!"

I think this is a FANTASTIC opportunity for communication, and maybe you could even talk about ways that you can help him manage his emotions if he feels himself starting to get angry in the way that he used to.

As for the time out, that's not always a bad thing. If what the child needs is a few minutes by themselves, that's great! I love that he'll retreat to his room until he's calm. That is NOT the same "time out" as being forced to sit in a corner until the child submits to the parent and comes back with a (not so sincere) apology (as an example). Everyone needs to just back away once and a while to regain their emotions.

I'm glad you posted. I've been thinking about you lately! Just wondering how things have been.


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## DanielleT

I too agree that you shouldn't unnecessarily medicate your child however as parents we need to set our children up for success and do everything we can to help them...Now i don't have children with behavioral problems BUT I have worked with many children and adults with sever aggressional behaviors in a group home setting...Medicating them was the very last option and only after we tried everything in our bag of tricks to de-escalate...I can't imagine how it must feel for your little guy to be so angry that he's hurting his mommy...and in my opinion if he unable to calm down on his own (or with your help) and there's a risk of him hurting himself and others then i think he needs some extra help and if that means being put on medication then that's what i think he needs (and you too) however i personally would want to start with a prescription for a PRN first (as required) then a med he has to take everyday, and just see how that goes....I am not a Doctor so this is only my opinion


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## newmum35

WOW I am so amazed and delighted for you, that is so unbelievable after all you've been through. What a miracle and you certainly deserve one too!! Congratulations!!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DanielleT* 
I too agree that you shouldn't unnecessarily medicate your child however as parents we need to set our children up for success and do everything we can to help them...Now i don't have children with behavioral problems BUT I have worked with many children and adults with sever aggressional behaviors in a group home setting...Medicating them was the very last option and only after we tried everything in our bag of tricks to de-escalate...I can't imagine how it must feel for your little guy to be so angry that he's hurting his mommy...and in my opinion if he unable to calm down on his own (or with your help) and there's a risk of him hurting himself and others then i think he needs some extra help and if that means being put on medication then that's what i think he needs (and you too) however i personally would want to start with a prescription for a PRN first (as required) then a med he has to take everyday, and just see how that goes....I am not a Doctor so this is only my opinion

I would possibly agree with you if his behavior was continuing, but thankfully things have changed dramatically over the last month or so! He is no longer hitting me, hurting me, or doing anything destructive. It's been so great that I really can't believe things are the way they are. Should his behavior return and should I be unable to help him control himself, I might have to consider medication, but for now, I am so glad I don't have to!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
THIS IS AMAZING!! I am BEYOND thrilled for you! Although I do want to quickly comment on this quote below. While I think it's fantastic that his behavior has changed, it bothers me slightly that he's acting nicely "for you". It's not just because you're his mom and because he has to. It's because you love him very much and you want to make sure that he's safe. You also feel sad when he feels sad or angry and you want to help him, but when he fights with you the way that he used to, it's hard to show him how much you love him because he used to fight so hard that he was unable to listen to you. You can't help him when either one of you is out of control.

I think this is a FANTASTIC opportunity for communication, and maybe you could even talk about ways that you can help him manage his emotions if he feels himself starting to get angry in the way that he used to.

As for the time out, that's not always a bad thing. If what the child needs is a few minutes by themselves, that's great! I love that he'll retreat to his room until he's calm. That is NOT the same "time out" as being forced to sit in a corner until the child submits to the parent and comes back with a (not so sincere) apology (as an example). Everyone needs to just back away once and a while to regain their emotions.

I'm glad you posted. I've been thinking about you lately! Just wondering how things have been.


















Hi Sgmom:

I am not sure I completely understand your observation about him being in control "for me." That's not exactly what I meant. When he's said those things to me (like "I am listening to you because you are my mom and I should listen!") he is saying this because he has been really proud of himself for listening to mommy, and he wants to point out how well he is doing and how proud he is of being in control. I always reinforce that with a "Yes! You're doing such a good job of listening!" and a specific comment like "When you hold my hand in the parking lot like mommy asks, that helps you stay safe!"

Of course I want him to do that because I love him and want to have good times with him and not be fighting all of the time, and also because I want him to be happy and successful in life. It's definitely not about control or having him jump through hoops like a little trained monkey. I hope it didn't come across that way! The main thing I want is for my son to be happy and for me to be happy and for us to be happy TOGETHER. We have been sharing so many nice times cuddling on the couch. This is something I always wanted to do with him and loved doing, but he was blowing up all the time and we got locked into big battles, which was how we'd spend our time. Somehow, THANK GOD, we've gotten out of this. He seems to be getting that when we aren't fighting, we are spending time together doing fun, happy things.

We have definitely talked about how he can manage his behavior when he gets angry, and he's working on that. Sometimes when he gets mad at me or a little out of control, he will go into the bedroom and slam the door and say something like, "I am angry at you right now!" I just let him have his space, and when he calms down, I come in and check on him and we talk. I am also noticing that if I upset him, instead of flying into a rage like he used to do, he is more likely to cry and say, "You hurt my feelings!" and I try to always respond to that with talking and hugs. It's so much easier to respond to a child who is crying and upset than one who is hitting, biting, screaming, and being destructive. (Obviously!)

I know there are a lot of things I am doing better, but at the same time, this honestly seems like some sort of magic! I have been joking that he is "angel possessed." As opposed to being demon possessed (not that I believe in that concept!), it seems like some angelic spirit has just taken over his body. It's just awesome.

I know that the move will probably be challenging. It will be our third move in about 3 years, but thankfully we will be at this new place to stay for a while, since I bought it. He is very excited about having his own room again. Right now we're in a one bedroom.

He will also be starting kindergarten in the fall, so we have lots of changes coming, but I think he will also enjoy being at school with more kids his age. He has been really wanting to work on reading and writing, and it's just like something has shifted. I am seeing a new confidence and pride in him, and I keep piling on the praise and compliments.

Honestly, I really didn't ever think it would be like this. We've just been having great times together.

I thought after all the horrible times I've posted about, I needed to post an update about something good, and this is GOOD! We had good days here and there over the past year or so, but it was one, maybe two ok days, and this has been weeks of GREAT days. The days have ranged from one small tantrum that resolves to simply perfect days where everything goes exactly as it should with both of us happy and content!

Happy happy happy times!


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## marinak1977

so happy for both of you!


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## Bisou

Thanks everyone for your yays, yipees, and well-wishes! It really is just amazing, and the happier I am with him and his great behavior, the better he does. It seems to just keep building! I think maybe he's realizing he can get lots of good, positive, fun attention if he is kind and acts appropriately. Whenever he starts to get a little cranky, I will remind him that "Come on, honey, I want to have a good day with you! If we are fighting with each, we can't have a good day together. I want to have fun with you and spend special mommy/son time today!" and then I will try to redirect him by asking him to do something with me.

I wish I had a perfectly clear idea of what happened, but I suppose each of the things I've done have contributed to his overall improved mood and behavior.







I am sooooooo happy about how he's doing right now!


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## DanielleT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I would possibly agree with you if his behavior was continuing, but thankfully things have changed dramatically over the last month or so! He is no longer hitting me, hurting me, or doing anything destructive. It's been so great that I really can't believe things are the way they are. Should his behavior return and should I be unable to help him control himself, I might have to consider medication, but for now, I am so glad I don't have to!

That is awesome! I am very very happy for the both of you; ever since i read your original post you guys have been in my thoughts and that's great to hear the improvement!


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## Bisou

Thanks Danielle T! It seemed like we were definitely heading towards medication at one point, but for now that's completely and totally off the table. He is doing great!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

I hope your absence has meant very good things. How was your Mothers day? Did the move go well? Hope spring is treating you and your boy fantastically!


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## MissNo

I am so glad again that the news has been good! Wonderful!


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## Bisou

Hello everyone! Hello Barbie64 and MissNo!

I have spent the last month trying to get our house sale to close, and it finally did last week. We are moving in a few days, so everything is hectic. We are very excited about our new home! We will be moving from our current one-bedroom rental to a two-bedroom home that's all OURS! It's very exciting!

But along with that is also some sadness for both of us. I think change is hard for most people, and there's also that fear of the unknown. I think we will absolutely love our new place, but it will take some getting used to.

After doing wonderfully for 6-8 weeks or so, my son is having a little bit of regression, but I think that's compeltely expected given the stress we are both under. Moving as a single mom with a young child isn't exactly an easy process! We've both been less patient and irritable lately. But, even saying that, his outbursts at their worst are still only about half as bad as they were before! He had his worst tantrum in about two months last night, and it only took 30-45 minutes. His tantrums used to last as long as 6-8 hours on a bad day, and at least 1-2 hours when it wasn't so bad, so I still think this is a huge improvement! Overall, I am very pleased with the progress he is making. He has really changed so much.

We are also going to occupational therapy once per week, and he absolutely loves it. We still continue to see his regular therapist as well. Overall, things are really really good! I am actually enjoying being a parent most of the time! I am enjoying being with my son! I hate to say it, but this wasn't really something I could say before. In the past, spending time with him was often so painful (literally and figuratively), and then I would be wrapped up in these feelings of guilt as well because I really didn't want to be around him half the time because all he did was hit me, scream at me, break things, etc. No matter how hard I tried or how kind or patient I was, it didn't matter, and that made me feel so helpless. It was just an awful mess. However, I am hopeful that we've made significant LONG TERM changes. I am determined to believe this and make it true! So far it's been pretty freaking amazing!

In taking him to occupational therapy, though, I am learning a lot more about him and why he reacts the way he does in some situations. For example, he is extremely physically talented in many ways. He could ride his bike without training wheels before he turned four. He can shoot a zillion hoops without missing a single one. He can easily hit a baseball. He has really great coordination. However, in OT, she has pointed out that his fast-twitch muscle fibers are highly developed (way beyond his age, equivalent to a 8-year-old on some tests and even close to a teenager on others!), but his slow-twitch muscle fibers are really underdeveloped. What this means is that he's much more comfortable with fast movement (and good at it!), and very uncomfortable with slower movement or where he has to hold his body still or steady. The way this translates into behavior is that it makes him act "hyper" much of the time. He always wants to run, jump, wrestle, and his energy is endless. On the other side of things, since he is so talented in so many physical things, when he couldn't do things like holding on to me during a piggy back ride or other things that required endurance and holding still, I would think he was messing around and not concentrating. Both have created situations where he has gotten in trouble, either from being too hyper and active, or from not paying attention, and now I can clearly see that this really isn't something he can control.

Having the occupational therapy and learning about Sensory Processing Disorder has really been very eye-opening. I feel like I am having these constant epiphanies, like "OHHHHH! Wow! So that's why he does that! It makes so much sense!" It's very cool. And he loves it!!! What more can you ask for?

Anyway, off to pack, then bed. Thanks so much for checking in!


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## Surfacing




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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Surfacing* 









Thanks! That's pretty much how I've been feeling most days with my son these last two months or so. Pretty awesome!

*A lot more of this:*

































































*And a lot LESS of this:*







:


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Fabulous update!


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## Just1More

In taking him to occupational therapy, though, I am learning a lot more about him and why he reacts the way he does in some situations. For example, he is extremely physically talented in many ways. He could ride his bike without training wheels before he turned four. He can shoot a zillion hoops without missing a single one. He can easily hit a baseball. He has really great coordination. However, in OT, she has pointed out that his fast-twitch muscle fibers are highly developed (way beyond his age, equivalent to a 8-year-old on some tests and even close to a teenager on others!), but his slow-twitch muscle fibers are really underdeveloped. What this means is that he's much more comfortable with fast movement (and good at it!), and very uncomfortable with slower movement or where he has to hold his body still or steady. The way this translates into behavior is that it makes him act "hyper" much of the time. He always wants to run, jump, wrestle, and his energy is endless. On the other side of things, since he is so talented in so many physical things, when he couldn't do things like holding on to me during a piggy back ride or other things that required endurance and holding still, I would think he was messing around and not concentrating. Both have created situations where he has gotten in trouble, either from being too hyper and active, or from not paying attention, and now I can clearly see that this really isn't something he can control.

Fascinating!








Good for you for figuring out your little boy and working with him through all of this!


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## BelCanto

Bisou...that is sooo wonderful. I am really happy to hear such a great update. I've been following this thread and hoping for great news from you.

I am wondering, and maybe you already stated this a few pages back, do you know what triggered the switch? Do you have any ideas?

I am struggling through similar issues with my little one and I can't seem to pinpoint what it is that triggers the behaviors. It seems like we can have a lovely week and then suddenly everything is really a struggle again. I can't seem to put my finger on what makes the difference.

Just wondering if you have.

Best of luck with your move! And again, very happy to hear that things are going so well.

Belcanto


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## newmum35

How inspirational! You have obviously hit a turning point and I am in awe that you have managed to do this without medication. After some of your previous posts I wasn't sure if that would be possible. How inspirational that you stuck it out and are now on the right track. So has he now a diagnosis of SPD? It must be a relief to finally know, and therefore to know what to do next. I'm thinking if you WOULD have started medicating, then the drs (and everyone else) would be giving the credit to that, and you might have never known otherwise! Your mothers instinct was certainly right on this, as you seemed to doubt the medication route all along. You guys have been through so much. Its time to start enjoying your new life together! Maybe someday your struggles will just be distant memories fading away, as you make new and great memories together to replace the old! Congratulations!!


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## Bisou

Hi mamas:

Just wanted to give a little update, and I also wanted to respond to BelCanto who asked about what seemed to trigger the change.

In response to the latter, I am not sure I have an exact answer for that. I think it was a combination of several things, including changing our time out approach (from having him sit in a chair to letting him be on the bed in the bedroom, which was less confrontational and allowed him to calm down better), focusing on really rewarding his positive behaviors through a point system that we reviewed every single night, trying to keep my stress under control and not lose it when he was out of control but really work to maintain my patience, and giving him my complete attention when we were at home (instead of giving him a little time, then cleaning, doing dishes, etc).

I think the occupational therapy has also helped, and we have a therapist that's pretty good (a child psychologist) who is always giving me new ideas when the previously suggested ideas don't work. She is very helpful.

Part of me also thinks that it might be him getting a little older and a little closer to five.

BelCanto, I am not an expert by any means, but if you wanted to let me know some specific behaviors that are happening, I could tell you what I tried for similar things. Every child is SOOOO different though! That's one thing I've learned. People can tell you that a, b, and c completely changed their child's behavior overnight and the same thing can have no impact on your child. It's part of what makes parenting so hard!

I know setting consistent boundaries has also been very important for my child. He needs to know that if he does a certain behavior, there will be a consistent consequence, every time.

I also needed to find a way to empathize with him and have a good resolution once the blow up was over. We needed to sit together, talk, hug, and say we were sorry. I do think the change in approach with time outs has been a big help. I am not sure if you do time outs or not, but I had been instructed by several therapists to restrain him in a chair if he would not stay. This resulted (about 99% of the time!) in a huge confrontation and would escalate everything terribly until we'd have a tantrum that would last HOURS. Since it became a physical confrontation (me trying to hold him in the chair and him doing everything he could to get out of it, including hitting, biting, spitting, urinating!), I would only be able to hold it together for an hour or so before my worst self would emerge (screaming, threatening, and being more physically rough than I would like! YUCK!). It was absolutely hideous. I finally decided that after trying this for at least a year that it was not working and I wasn't going to do it anymore. Why did I do it so long? I was told that if I didn't continue he would realize he had finally broken me down and had "won." I decided that no one was winning the way things were. It was a mess. However, I still felt he needed a consequence for hitting or other seriously undesirable behaviors, so I moved the time out to the bedroom. He has to stay on the bed, but he can read books if he wants. I just want him to calm down. While this doesn't always work perfectly, it works most of the time, and he has learned to calm himself down. If he tries to keep coming out, I just put him back on the bed over and over. It hasn't escalated physically because I am not holding him down, something that I now also realize with his sensory processing issues that may have really caused him great physical, mental, and emotional discomfort (moreso than an "average" child). He will often stay on the bed, and when he's calm, I go in and give him a hug and we talk, and he will often say sorry on his own. It's a huge improvement.

Now, all that said, we have just moved and have just spent our first week in our new place, and things have been a little more rocky the last 2-3 weeks as we've made this transition. He is crabby, not listening very well, and having a few tantrums. I completely expected this. This is his third move in less than three years, and last year when we moved, it was because someone had seriously tried to break into our home when the two of us were home alone with the intention of hurting me/us. I think the stress of our most recent move was really compounded by that as we were moving from an extremely secure building (11th floor, secure access, fob-controlled elevator, security on site, 24-hour door person) to a building that is still secure, but not quite as secure as our last building. I think we are both nervous in this new and unfamiliar environment, and even though my son is thrilled about his new room and our new, bigger place, the move is extremely stressful. Since I am a single mom and working 50-60 hours a week and doing this basically on my own, I am cranky and exhausted myself, which definitely doesn't help my son's mood or my patience with him. I have been dealing with pretty intense nightmares related to our break-in last year now that I am in a new place and feel a little less safe. We are both under a lot of stress, but I know in the next few weeks it will subside.

Though my son's behavior has taken an expected step (or many steps, at times) backward, it's still MUCH better than it was before. We were going several days without a tantrum or time out before, and now we may have a tantrum/time out or two per day, but they are relatively minor. It's more of an annoyance/frustration than a complete melt-down, break-down emergency that it was before. It is completely managable.

I think that amidst all this change I just need to focus on what was working and keep things as consistent as possible for him. For example, since the new place is a mess with 30 boxes and bags lying here and there, it's tempting to spend as much time as possible cleaning and putting things away, and leave my son to his own devices (within sight and earshot of course!), but I can't do that. He needs me even more now due to his insecurity with this new place. We also have stopped doing his point review (good behavior for the day) since we've moved, and this is something I can't let slide, as I feel it really helped him.

Anyway, that's my "brief" update!







I am always the wordy one!

BelCanto (are you a singer, by the way?)--either post or email me if you'd like to discuss this further. I am happy to give you any suggestions I can. They may help, they may not. I know that some of the suggestions people made for me really helped A LOT, especially the person who initially mentioned sensory processing disorder. That changed a lot of things for me!

I hope you all had a nice long weekend. Thanks for your continued support, well wishes, and hurrays! I am hoping that we will continue the upward trend after we recover from the stress of our move!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

How are you? Are you done moving? Hope you and your little guy are enjoying the summer in your new home!


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie64 and everyone:

So. . . . . . . . I hate to even post, but we are back in a bad patch. SIGH. I knew the move would be unsettling for him. My little guy does NOT respond well to change. And he is really not responding well.

On top of the move, there have been a few other problems with our move. One of these is our downstairs neighbors smoking like chimneys, which is coming into our place. (We're in an apartment-style condo for security reasons.) The other problem is that the HOA is threatening to sue me for installing hardwood floors in my unit because my downstairs neighbors (aka the smokers) are complaining about noise, probably in retaliation for me complaining about their smoking. It's a long complicated story, but I was told by the builder/developer/owner and real estate agent (also an owner, partners with the builder) that I could install hardwood floors, and they even did it for me. Well, two weeks after moving in, I receive notice that I was not allowed to change anything in the unit without the HOA's permission, so they demanded that I rip out the $5000 hardwood floors and put carpet back in. They wouldn't even accept putting carpet OVER the floors. It's a disaster.

In short, we are having a LOT of stress as a result of this, on top of the normal stress of moving and being in a new and unfamiliar place.

My son's behavior has returned to almost where it was before, though if before it was a 10 on the "awful" scale, now it's around an 8. It's still upsetting and difficult to deal with, especially since he has now added lots of verbal stuff, telling me I am fat, ugly, and stupid all day. (And no, I don't ever use this language with him!)

I also just got an upsetting call from his childcare provider saying he was out of control and hitting and scratching them when they were trying to get him ready to go to the park, and this is something he has never done before. They said it was almost to the point that they just couldn't handle him and I would have to come get him. I hate to have them deal with that, but I also know that if I run over there and get him, it might give him the idea that all he has to do is really act up and I will come get him from school.

I hate to sound pathetic, but WHY ME? Seriously. I am a nice person. A rule follower. Someone who is considerate and wants to make other people happy. It's getting really old having to deal with stress that's not of my own doing and really out of my control.

Also, yesterday (to add something else to the stress heap) my son was complaining about his eye hurting. I rinsed it out for him with saline, but he still said it hurt, so I took a look at it and noticed a bump on his eyeball that looked like possibly sand or a sliver stuck in his eyeball. I took him to the eye doctor who said he wasn't sure what it was, that maybe it was a cyst or small tumor, and that he needed to see a specialist.

Ok, scary. I am trying not to worry about it until we know more though.

But having him act up so much at school is VERY upsetting, as he has never done this before. It's bad enough having him act that way with me.

I know that he is very affected by the stress of everything that's going on with us. He doesn't feel secure in our new place yet, even though he likes it and it's a nice place. He is very concerned about the "bad guy" being able to get us. (For those of us who haven't read the whole thread, last May we had a stranger try to break into our house to rape and hurt me, and my son and I were home at the time.) He is upset and angry about the cigarette smoke coming into our place. And I know he's picking up on my stress. I had one really bad day with him last week, but otherwise I have done very well at keeping my patience with him.

But I am very concerned and upset about his behavior at school. I was supposed to spend the day cleaning the house and getting everything unpacked, but all I want to do is crawl into bed and sleep. I know getting everything cleaned would make me feel better, but my motivation is extremely low. I guess I am depressed.

I am hoping that in the next few weeks his behavior will improve again. I know I need to keep the stress away from him as much as possible. But I have to admit that maybe there is something more here, like a mental health condition. Right now his therapist thinks it's mainly a response to trauma, his intelligence combined with a stubborn personality, and problems with emotional regulation. I just thought we had hit such a good patch, and I feel bad that moving caused such a big mess.

He is also having an extremely tough time at school, saying he doesn't want to go. He claimed that his preschool teacher squeezed his face and told him to stop the bad behavior or he would have a time out. I asked her about it, and she denied it, and I hate to say it, but I didn't really think it was something she would do. I didn't tell my son this though, as I think it's always important to believe your child. I do think he doesn't want to go to preschool because he feels unsettled and upset after our move and he just wants to be with me. I hope that there isn't anything happening at his school that is damaging to him.

Last year when the break in happened and our lives were in turmoil, he started having problems at school too (a different school). I thought it was just the extreme stress of what we had been through, but then I found out that the head teacher had force fed him (physically shoved a spoon into his mouth while he sobbed!) on several occasions. Another teacher told me, and a second teacher confirmed, so I knew for a fact that this was the case.

Childcare scares me. I know my child can be difficult, so he is at a higher risk of being abused in daycare/preschool. I just keep reaching these places where I don't know what to do or what's right or what is really going on.

YUCK.

Sorry for such a crappy update, but I hope when another few weeks pass I can give you a better one.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Oh no mama, I was hoping no news meant good news. Im sorry things are rought right now. Perhaps a vacation is in order soon? unless of course you took one to move







.

:Lots of







to you both!


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Oh no mama, I was hoping no news meant good news. Im sorry things are rought right now. Perhaps a vacation is in order soon? unless of course you took one to move







.

:Lots of







to you both!

Thanks Barbie. Yeah, we were having a GREAT time for quite a while, several months actually, but the move has been very unsettling for him. He is just completely out of sorts.

I am really hoping that he will settle down in a few weeks. He's just been having a rough time. He doesn't want to go to preschool at all, and he only wants to stay with me. Unfortunately, I have to work, and since I am a college teacher, I can't take vacation except between terms. I teach during summer too because I am an adjunct and have to teach many more classes (and more than full time) to get close to a full-time salary.

It's just hard to go from a place that was SOOOO wonderful back to this awful place.

I am also having a hard time figuring out whether Evan just doesn't want to be at school because he's upset and unsettled or whether there is something going on there that shouldn't be going on. Since Evan can be very difficult to deal with at times, I think people get frustrated with him and lose their patience. He is saying one of his teachers is "mean," but I can't get him to elaborate on this. He has already been mistreated at two different daycares, so I don't want to ignore his comments, but it's hard to tell what is really going on. I have been discussing this with his therapist in detail (on the days when I go without him), and she said that at this point there is no firm evidence of anything amiss, and to just keep my eyes and ears open and keep the avenues of communication open. I have found though that sometimes kids say things without being so obvious about it, and it's hard to know what is going on with him. Is he clingy and upset about school because someone is being mean to him or hurting him, or is he just so upset about our move that he feels like he can't stand being away from me? It's completely confusing and upsetting.

God, I never knew being a parent was so freaking hard!!!!!!!


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## MissNo

I was so happy about the first update, so excited for the positive changes you've been having. Congratulations on your new home, and I really hope it is the beginning of a bright and healthy future for you both.









The second update is discouraging, to be sure, but it does sound like he's reacting to the changes. All I can offer is that you keep reassuring him, and get the important aspects of his routine back up, that seems to work with Eva. Her transitions can last for weeks, it is draining. Both of mine are in a rough spot these past few weeks...seems like nothing makes them happy.

You are a good person. Don't ever doubt that.


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## newmum35

This probably isn't a good long-term solution to your having to breathe 2nd hand smoke from your neighbors, but can you consider getting an air filter to purify the air for you and your son until you can resolve this issue?

Moving is a big source of stress and it would have probably been unheard of if your son DIDN'T act out about this. This is likely a bump in the road, I think you will be hitting more good patches, have faith because you just experienced one, so you know now it is possible.

Does the day care center know that your child is in therapy for special needs and not simply being difficult? If so maybe they are more likely to be sure NOT to abuse him. I would be making sure they know that you are aware he can be challenging and that you appreciate anything they can do to help!

This is a new day care right? So your son not only has to get using to moving to a different home but also a new preschool. That would be huge for me too. Is it an option to hire a babysitter or someone to stay with him in your home for a little while, until he gets used to things before putting him in the preschool? (too late perhaps, but a suggestion since he is asking to stay home)


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## Bisou

Hi NewMum and Miss No:

Thanks both of you for the encouragement. I do need to help myself put things into perspective! For example, while his behavior has been pretty awful since our move about a month ago, it's not the out of control physical violence and aggression he had before. Right now it's mainly verbal aggression, including yelling and screaming and lots of yucky things he's saying to me, including such lovelies as. . . . . . .

I wish you weren't my mom.
I wish you hadn't had a baby (him, since he's my only baby).
I wasn't happy to see you (upon coming home from his grandparents' house).
You are so fat, mom.
You are so ugly, mom.
I am going to kill you with a gun.
You are stupid.
Shut up!!!!!!
I don't care what you say!
You don't look normal. You don't look like other moms.
He is calling me fat and ugly about 80 times per day. I know he is a small child and he is having a hard time right now, but it still hurts, especially because I don't have anyone (a boyfriend, spouse, etc) telling me otherwise. Not that it matters, but I am about 30 pounds overweight, not huge, but I could lose a little, so it's a sensitive spot for me. It's just hard for me to feel happy and positive about myself when he is telling me how ugly I am all day long, over and over. Even if I try to tell myself that he doesn't mean it or that it shouldn't bother me, it does. I guess I always imagined my child telling me how beautiful I was. I thought all young children thought their mommies were beautiful until someone told them otherwise. And, damn it, aside from the few extra pounds, I am really pretty attractive! I think it's just hard because I have been single since my pregnancy, so I have not had a single date (or an adult kiss, hug, or anything romantic/affectionate/etc) in nearly six years. I am the kind of person who has had a boyfriend from the time I was 14 until I had my son, so this has been very difficult!

Also, I don't know where he is getting all this awful talk about "fat." Neither my parents nor I talk negatively about overweight or obese people. I don't say things like "You better not eat that or you will get fat!" or make comments about my own weight or anyone else's. I guess it's just in our society though, and it's sad that he has already picked that up!

The verbal abuse and aggression is hard to deal with though. In the past his therapist told me to ignore the verbal comments and deal only with the physical violence. But he is so completely disrespectful of me right now, not that I have that "I am the parent, you must respect and worship me" sort of attitude, but I wouldn't talk to him like that, and I don't want him talking to me or anyone like he is. He is constantly saying, "Mom, you're stupid." I say, "I don't like that kind of talk. That's disrespectful. Mommy doesn't talk that way to you," and he says, "I don't care" or "Shut up."

He is also being super defiant and refusing to brush his teeth. This has been a HUGE problem since he was a baby (brushing teeth), and I wouldn't make a big deal of it except that he already has tooth decay. The dentist said if I didn't keep on top of it he would have to have caps, so once he had the one serious cavity in his front tooth, I was determined not to have him have ANY more cavities. I have tried everything, but this is still a major battleground for us twice per day. We are working on it with the OT, and she had some recommendations (like having him chew or blow on something first before the tooth brushing so his mouth would be less sensitive; she thinks the feel of it is irritating to him), but nothing has worked so far.

But, again, I do need to put this into perspective. Even at his worst right now, he is basically keeping his hands to himself. There has been a little hitting, but it's mainly yelling and saying awful things. THAT IS AN IMPROVEMENT FROM WHERE WE WERE BEFORE. I just need to keep reminding myself of that.

One thing I can say is that I have been fairly patient the last few days, just trying not to let him phase me. But he is just way over-reacting to just about everything. Poor guy.

I hope when he gets more used to our new place things will be better.

Oh, to answer your question, NewMum, his preschool is not new. He has been there over a year now. His teachers do know he has sensory processing issues, and they have tried some of the things I have suggested. I think they are just surprised because they have never worked with a child like him. I think I may have mentioned in one of my last postings that he actually hit them and flipped out at school a week or two ago, and this was something he had never done before.

He will be starting kindergarten in about 10 weeks, and I know that will come up really fast, even though 2 1/2 months sounds like a long time. I know it's really not! He will have only been in our new place for three months or so, and kindergarten is a HUGE transition. I hope I can get him to calm down and feel more comfortable before school starts.

Even though I had a rough day with him, I am trying to be upbeat.

One other interesting note, if I did ever have to try medication for my son (even though I don't want to and this would be my LAST resort), it sounds like my mom would now be supportive. Not that I would only go by what she says/thinks, but it would just make it easier. I think she is finally seeing that there is something "different" with him that may be beyond his control and my control. She made a comment to this effect in the last few weeks.

Anyway, that's my update. Thanks to all of you who have held my hand and patted my back through this all! It has really REALLY meant a lot to me.


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## wytchywoman

Bisou, as far as teeth brushing, can you set a timer so he knows that there is a finite amount of time that he has to deal with it and then it's done. Also, is he willing to rinse with a flouride mouth wash and floss his teeth? If he can tolerate flossing and can rinse and spit, that might be able to replace some of the teeth brushing.


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## newmum35

That's great you're still able to keep this in perspective. Maybe try focusing on the positive like "I'm glad you're using your words to get out your negative energy and not your hands." Or "I'm glad you're using words instead of hands to express your frustration" that's an improvement, for sure! But, it would definitely drive me batty to hear 80 times a day too! You poor soul! I don't have experience with special needs but I've known a few "normal" kids who have said some of these things (many years ago) quite often as a child and they grew up perfectly fine and never carried out their "threats" as feared. So hopefully its just a phase as some of these things are things that even normal kids say sometimes (or go through phases of saying), he's just taking it to extremes.

What do you say in response? Who does he want to be his mom? Does he know you get sad when he tells you these things? (and if so perhaps that is all it is.. him trying to assert some kind of control over something in his life, in a predictable way... him talking mean, you getting sad) Another thought maybe he's just trying to test your limits to be sure that you will always be there for him. Maybe he is afraid if he loses it someday that he won't be worthy of love anymore. Does this behavior get worse after visiting grandparents? I'm definitely curious what goes on there during his visits.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Bisou, as far as teeth brushing, can you set a timer so he knows that there is a finite amount of time that he has to deal with it and then it's done. Also, is he willing to rinse with a flouride mouth wash and floss his teeth? If he can tolerate flossing and can rinse and spit, that might be able to replace some of the teeth brushing.

Hi wytchy:

Those are good suggestions. I am not sure how he'd feel about the mouthwash since he can't stand the taste of the super mild kids' toothpaste he has (one of those natural ones--Tom's of Maine, I think?). We are working with the occupational therapist on this one. She suggested having him chew on things and even blow whistles before brushing to get his mouth ready for touching, but he still just hates it! I think it might also be because it's ticklish or something? I haven't quite been able to figure it out. It's been one of our worst battles lately! Thanks for the ideas though.

One thing that used to work for me for a while (months ago) was an idea I got in another MDC discussion. One parent suggested saying something like "There's a tiger in your mouth! I have to get it!" That worked BRILLIANTLY for weeks! He thought it was so funny. It would be snakes one time, elephants the next, or even (if I can admit it) various animals that were going to poop in his mouth if I didn't get them out of there with the toothbrush. He thought it was so completely hilarious (especially the pooping idea; what is it with 3-4 year old boys and poop?) that he would cooperate.

I have also tried just letting him do the brushing and I finish up, but he doesn't want to do it either. Today I was torn between (after him refusing for several hours in the morning and me trying to be patient!) either making him have a time out for refusing or holding him down and forcing him. Neither were attractive options. I put him in time out, and that escalated things into hitting and biting. Not fun. Today was a challenging one.

*One thing that's really weird about my son is when we have a day off together with no school/work and no obligations, he wants to stay home (which I understand), but then he acts AWFUL all day and is constantly fighting, hitting, screaming, and tantruming. Because of this, I always try to get us out of the house and doing some fun activity that he will enjoy (going to the park, swimming, the science museum, etc) when we have days off. He often wants to stay home and refuses to go anywhere, but no matter how much attention I give him, he just acts awful. I understand wanting to lounge around home and relax, but why make it so awful for both of us? Any insight, anyone? It's not like I am trying to make him do chores or ignoring him. I am giving him lots of attention and just letting him play and do what he wants, yet he just really has awful behavior. I don't get it.*


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
What do you say in response? Who does he want to be his mom? Does he know you get sad when he tells you these things? (and if so perhaps that is all it is.. him trying to assert some kind of control over something in his life, in a predictable way... him talking mean, you getting sad) Another thought maybe he's just trying to test your limits to be sure that you will always be there for him. Maybe he is afraid if he loses it someday that he won't be worthy of love anymore. Does this behavior get worse after visiting grandparents? I'm definitely curious what goes on there during his visits.

Good points/thoughts newmum. I think that he is possibly testing me to see how I really feel about him. I've heard more negative talk about himself lately too, and he will sometimes say things like "You don't love me" or "You don't like me" or "You are better than me; you are nicer." I ALWAYS tell him I love him so much, more than anyone else, and that he is the most important person to me. If he's been particularly difficult/cruel, I might say something like, "I don't like when you hit me or say you hate me, but I ALWAYS LOVE YOU!"

When I was a kid, my mom often used to say to me, "Sometimes I don't like you, but I always love you." I always thought that was an awful thing to say because it didn't make sense to me that someone could not like you as a person, but still love you. I definitely don't want to even hint at that sentiment with my son, so I try to make it clear that while certain behaviors make me unhappy, I always love him and like him! I might say, "I am angry right now because you just bit me, and I am REALLY mad, but I still love you."

I always try to make up with him after I've gotten mad and he has gotten in trouble or when I've lost my temper. I try to hug him and have him sit with me and talk. I try saying things like, "Look, this is my day off to spend with you, and I want to be with you, and I want to have fun. What's going on? Why are you hitting me and saying mean things?" Unfortunately, his answer is usually, "I don't know." And maybe he really doesn't know. I suspect that's the case.

As far as what goes on at my parents' house, I know my parents sometimes get irritated with him (as do I, as much as I try not to!), but he has been wanting to stay at their house more lately than be with me, it seems. I think part of this might be because their home is familiar and it's been the one constant in his life since he was born as far as a residence goes. We have only lived in our current place for a few weeks. They also have six acres in the middle of a forest and on a creek, so he has a million different things he can do. It's very different than being in the city, and I think he sometimes misses the freedom he has at my parents' house. I think he has also picked up on the stress that I have been under, and that hasn't been good. I am trying to calm down, but there's been a lot of crap going on. I am hoping it will all be resolved soon!

Thanks for everyone's suggestions and insight, as always!!!


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## wytchywoman

"One thing that's really weird about my son is when we have a day off together with no school/work and no obligations, he wants to stay home (which I understand), but then he acts AWFUL all day and is constantly fighting, hitting, screaming, and tantruming."

My guess is this has to do with a change in routine more than anything. I'm sure he wants to stay home and be with you, but sensitive kids have a reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllyyyyyyyyy hard time adjusting to changes in routine, even when the changes are great. Also, I remember when my older son was little, I had to have every second of the day accounted for otherwise he would get bored and then the trouble would begin. He's just the kind of kid who needed a TON of structure, and maybe your DS is that kind of kid as well. It's hard sometimes for us as adults to understand, because we work so hard all week long and would LOVE the opportunity to just chillax on the couch and do nothing. With the little ones, they need some sort of outlet. When you couple that with an SPD and other issues, he HAS to have a routine and structure. The daily grind probably helps him cope with the SPD and takes his mind off of it, plus he knows what to expect. Take those two components away from him and it's no surprise that he flips his lid. His body and his senses are probably driving him stark raving crazy.
As far as how to handle it...mental preparation goes along way. I would give him verbal reminders about the change in schedule two days in advance, then one day, then the night before, and while you're giving him the reminder tell him what you will be doing. Maybe even a picture schedule would help, he may need visual cues to know what to expect. When he's having a good day you could even enlist his help and ask him what he thinks would help things go more smoothly on your days off. Definitely lots of activity and good outlets for sensory seeking behavior would help as well. If you could find something he loves and make that a big treat on those days that might help too.


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## Surfacing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
*One thing that's really weird about my son is when we have a day off together with no school/work and no obligations, he wants to stay home (which I understand), but then he acts AWFUL all day and is constantly fighting, hitting, screaming, and tantruming. Because of this, I always try to get us out of the house and doing some fun activity that he will enjoy (going to the park, swimming, the science museum, etc) when we have days off. He often wants to stay home and refuses to go anywhere, but no matter how much attention I give him, he just acts awful. I understand wanting to lounge around home and relax, but why make it so awful for both of us? Any insight, anyone? It's not like I am trying to make him do chores or ignoring him. I am giving him lots of attention and just letting him play and do what he wants, yet he just really has awful behavior. I don't get it.*

It sometimes surprises me when my children insist that they want to be home with me, even when they've been miserable or I've been miserable or both. My older dd would act out a lot, say nonsense things like testing pushing my buttons by saying swear words, etc. Honestly, what I found was that if I went about my business, and dd1 asked to be included, if I could include her in some way, that was a positive way for us to interact, and redirected or focused her energy on something more productive.

I mean, maybe he WANTS to get his hands dirty with you in the kitchen making something (of course, there'll be spilling and tasting and whatnot), or maybe he wants to try something Big Boy-ish like spritzing the glass windows with vinegar water and paper towels, Look Mommy! Maybe instead of it being all about him, he needs to see you having some YOU time, so that either he can join you, or give you some space and do his own thing.

Just some thoughts. Not sure if they are helpful and apply or not. Just some reflections. You've had a very challenging go of it, I admire your strength.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
My guess is this has to do with a change in routine more than anything. I'm sure he wants to stay home and be with you, but sensitive kids have a reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllyyyyyyyyy hard time adjusting to changes in routine, even when the changes are great. Also, I remember when my older son was little, I had to have every second of the day accounted for otherwise he would get bored and then the trouble would begin. He's just the kind of kid who needed a TON of structure, and maybe your DS is that kind of kid as well. It's hard sometimes for us as adults to understand, because we work so hard all week long and would LOVE the opportunity to just chillax on the couch and do nothing. With the little ones, they need some sort of outlet. When you couple that with an SPD and other issues, he HAS to have a routine and structure. The daily grind probably helps him cope with the SPD and takes his mind off of it, plus he knows what to expect. Take those two components away from him and it's no surprise that he flips his lid.

Hi Wytchy:

Thanks so much for the great insight! Once I read your post, it was very obvious, and I can't believe I didn't think of this before. I feel kinda like "Duh!!!!" I think I was more tuned into routine when he was younger (birth to two, or so) and now that he is older I didn't think about it as much, except for bedtime.

I have found that I almost have to force him out of the house to go do something, which is kinda sad because I want to let him just hang out at home, but the alternative (insane raging tantrums) is not good for either of us. I have found that if we get out and go somewhere (a bike ride, swimming, to the park, walking around downtown, etc) he does MUCH better. He rarely throws tantrums when out.

This weekend was pretty rough. It was his birthday on the 4th of July, and he had such a huge tantrum that we almost had to just cancel his birthday plans. I was so upset! My parents came down from where they live to celebrate. He was already upset because he wanted kids and more friends there to celebrate, but since it's a holiday, people are always busy, so we celebrate with a birthday party before his birthday (which we did last weekend). On his birthday, it's just family (me and my parents and my son) and occasionally a friend, but this year it was just the four of us. He was disappointed. Then my parents showed up more than two hours late, which threw off all the plans. We were going to go to this big 4th celebration outside with lots of activities, bands, puppet shows, etc. My son would have really enjoyed himself, but my parents were so late that we missed almost everything.

Anyway, they came and we had to rush through cake and presents to get to the 4th of July event. My son got a sort of disc shooting toy (not my favorite gift as I knew it would probably create conflict!) and I told him that he could not shoot it at people or the cat. Of course he was shooting it at me. I gave him one warning, and he shot it at me again, so I had to remove the toy. In trying to take it from him, he was fighting me and I accidentally scratched him with my fingernail on his chest. He was absolutely furious then and just attacked me, though at the time I didn't realize I had scratched him and I thought it was simply because of the toy. He stormed across the house and just started kicking things and throwing things and kicked the trash all over everything. I put him in time out and when he came out I told him he needed to pick up the trash, but he refused. He said I should help him clean it up, but I felt like he should clean it up since he kicked trash all over the place in a rage. I held my ground that he would need to clean it up, he refused, so he went back into time out. It was ugly. My parents said, "We're going to leave. This is not what we had in mind." And I was just thinking, "Son, you are going to ruin your birthday!" and I was so angry and also upset for him because I knew he was really looking forward to the fireworks and everything. My parents left and I told him, "If you want to have a chance to go to the fireworks, you have to pick this up RIGHT NOW. Grandma and Grandpa are leaving. If you don't do it now, we will just stay home." So he began sobbing and just picked everything up and we were able to go.

I am always confused in these kinds of situations because I feel like I should hold my ground once I have asked him to do something. I guess it turned out ok in the end, but it was sad that we had to have this huge tantrum mar his birthday.

Yesterday was even worse! He had a huge tantrum and was screaming "Someone help me! Someone help me!" because I had him in a time out and had to restrain him since he was biting, scratching, and hitting me. I just thought, "This is great! Someone is going to call the police!" I wasn't hurting him, just preventing him from hurting me, but it sounded absolutely hideous! It's hard because we live in an apartment-style condo, so we have neighbors above and below and next door. I just hate to think what they might think of me. I probably sound like the worst mom ever.

I know he was completely exhausted. He only had about five hours of sleep the night before. After the huge blow up, I finally got him to calm down, and I told him we were going to have a nap. I gave him a good massage with lotion, which is something he usually doesn't like, but he did this time. I think if he liked it, it would be really beneficial and calming for him. I used very firm pressure, which he seemed to like more, especially along the sides of his spine. He then had a four-hour nap! Obviously he needed it. I gave him another massage before bed, and he slept about nine hours last night. Usually he sleeps 7-8. I know kids his age sleep on average more like ten hours or even more, but he's never been a very good sleeper. I am sure that is part of his problem. I have tried lots of things to regulate his sleep, but I haven't had much luck. I know he needs a blackout shade for his room, but it's a sliding glass door that I need to cover, and I haven't found anything to fit that yet. (If anyone has any good product recommendations, please PM me!) I was also looking into blackout fabric to attach to the back of his curtains. When the sun comes up at 5am, it's like someone shining a flood light on your face! I wear an eye mask, and it's even too bright for me!

Anyway, that's the most recent update.

My biggest struggle right now is staying calm and not blowing up at him in return when he blows up at me. Sometimes I feel like "I have to make him stop! I have to make him know I am serious!" and I don't really know how to do that. I have tried being loving and understanding and gentle, and that doesn't work, but it seems like the "I am the boss! YOU WILL LISTEN TO ME!" approach doesn't work either. I am just hoping that we can get through this phase. I am trying to remind myself to point out what he's doing well and make a big deal out of it. That seemed to work well before. I need to remember that there are some things he is doing REALLY well, like having amazing manners in public, saying please, thank you, no thank you, and have a nice day to people, and people are always impressed with his manners. I have a bad tendency to come down REALLY hard on him when he does something wrong. I don't know. Maybe I need the Risperdal to just make me mellow and relaxed! I am joking, but I wish I could temper my rage more. I think it's just because I had such a rough childhood that when someone attacks me, I want to attack back. I think that some of it feels almost primitive, like I can feel the fight or flight impulse, and unfortunately since I can't leave and I know it, and I feel pushed into a corner, I get more into the "fight" mode.

Lately I have been thinking what if my son was autistic or had other special needs? Would I scream and yell at him then, or would I understand that he couldn't help it? [I would HOPE I wouldn't yell . . . . ] Is my son any different? Not really. He has problems that are out of his control. I think that he is competent in so many ways, even way above his age group in so many ways, that I expect him to be able to do a better job than he does, and I don't know that my expectations are always fair or realistic.

We have kindergarten coming up in a matter of about 8 weeks, and I am a little nervous! I want it to be a positive experience for him. I hope I can help him get out of this funk in the next two months!

Thanks for your continued feedback and support. You mamas REALLY do help me survive!


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Surfacing* 
Maybe instead of it being all about him, he needs to see you having some YOU time, so that either he can join you, or give you some space and do his own thing.

Just some thoughts. Not sure if they are helpful and apply or not. Just some reflections. You've had a very challenging go of it, I admire your strength.

Hi Surfacing:

I appreciate your comments. I really have a hard time with balancing my needs and what I need to do with the time and attention my son needs, especially as a single mom. He seems to do better at my parents' house often, and I think it's because if my mom is busy, he can go do something with my dad. Here, if I am busy, there is no one else to play with. This means I often leave dishes and laundry unwashed, the floors unvacuumed, etc, and this can cause more stress for me. It's hard to balance that out. Often I will wait until he goes to bed, then clean and do work until 1:00 in the morning, which leads to me being really tired and cranky and lacking in patience the next day.

I knew being a single mom would be hard, but it's MUCH harder than I thought!

A guy friend of mine recently became a dad, just a few weeks ago, and immediately he said, "Oh my GOD! I have NO idea how you did this by yourself!" (I was a single mom when my son was born too.) I was like,
"Thank you! You finally get it!" He didn't think it was that big of a deal before, and I also found it very funny that he was adamant that his life wouldn't really change once the baby was born. Right! Ok, hold on to that illusion as long as you can, buddy! He has already admitted he was completely in the dark. LOL.

I think parenthood is a little hard to imagine until you're there, even if you have close friends and family with children. It's never quite what you expected, I don't think!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
A guy friend of mine recently became a dad, just a few weeks ago, and immediately he said, "Oh my GOD! I have NO idea how you did this by yourself!" (I was a single mom when my son was born too.) I was like,
"Thank you! You finally get it!" He didn't think it was that big of a deal before, and I also found it very funny that he was adamant that his life wouldn't really change once the baby was born. Right! Ok, hold on to that illusion as long as you can, buddy! He has already admitted he was completely in the dark. LOL.

Now thats what you call a nice big helping of Humble Pie!!







I know Ive had a slice or two over the last couple years.









I hope my pittly little suggestion helps. I have none for the rest of the stuff, but I was glad to be able to offer up SOMETHING that might help.


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## wytchywoman

Bisou, I think you did the right thing by sticking to your guns and having him clean up the mess he made. I have two sons with autism spectrum conditions and if they knocked over the trash can I would absolutely insist they clean it up too. I see where you are coming from that he isn't behaving this way to be a brat, but because he has a legitimate neurological issue that causes his body to go haywire and it freak him out. That being said you are only human, and no one is perfect. I think you have far more patience than about 99% of the parenting population on this earth. That's for sure. Just keep plugging along and doing the best you can. Perhaps kinder will be a great opportunity for him, he may love it. Have you started prepping him for when he starts school? Also, have you contacted the school to let them know that he has SPD? He should be receiving OT services at school because of this and hopefully they will be a valuable ally in getting him any accommodations he may need. I'd contact the school sooner rather than later on this one, as the gears of the educational institution can grind rather slowly.







Hang in there


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Now thats what you call a nice big helping of Humble Pie!!







I know Ive had a slice or two over the last couple years.









I hope my pittly little suggestion helps. I have none for the rest of the stuff, but I was glad to be able to offer up SOMETHING that might help.









Hi Barbie:

Thanks for the suggestion. I am looking into all different options for blocking the sun. I think getting more sleep would REALLY help my son! (And me too! I am tired of getting up at 5 am with the sun!)

~Bisou


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Bisou, I think you did the right thing by sticking to your guns and having him clean up the mess he made. I have two sons with autism spectrum conditions and if they knocked over the trash can I would absolutely insist they clean it up too. I see where you are coming from that he isn't behaving this way to be a brat, but because he has a legitimate neurological issue that causes his body to go haywire and it freak him out. That being said you are only human, and no one is perfect. I think you have far more patience than about 99% of the parenting population on this earth. That's for sure. Just keep plugging along and doing the best you can. Perhaps kinder will be a great opportunity for him, he may love it. Have you started prepping him for when he starts school? Also, have you contacted the school to let them know that he has SPD? He should be receiving OT services at school because of this and hopefully they will be a valuable ally in getting him any accommodations he may need. I'd contact the school sooner rather than later on this one, as the gears of the educational institution can grind rather slowly.







Hang in there









Hi wytchy:

Thanks for the comments about doing the right thing with making him clean up the garbage. At the time I worried if I was being too harsh because it WAS his birthday and he was at risk of missing all of the 4th of July fun and basically ruining his birthday because of his tantrum, and I thought that was really sad, but he did clean it up in the end (and it took less than a minute!), so it seemed like the right way to go. I met with my son's therapist today without him, and she also agreed that putting my foot down was the right action in this situation.

Good suggestions about school. I have been hesitant to talk to them about his issues because I have not been sure I wanted to label him right off the bat. Part of me wants to see how he does first because he might do well, but at the same time, I don't want to set him up for failure.

He does get OT through our insurance, but I have to pay a co-pay. Right now I am paying $200 a month in just co-pays for my son's care, sometimes more if we have extra appointments, so it might be nice if the school provided some of the therapy he needs. Oregon schools are a mess right now though. They are cutting things left and right! It's hard to say what they have available here.

He is very excited about kindergarten, and I am hoping that his excitement may help him keep it together. He is very excited about learning to read and being around kids his age. I am hoping it will be a positive experience for him. We just bought a condo and are within walking distance to his elementary school, so we've been walking there almost daily and playing on the playground. He says, "Let's go to my school." It's cute. I think that will be good for him because it's not going to be completely unfamiliar.

*So wytchy and other parents with special needs kids in school, what do you think about my concern about labeling him? Would you worry about that? I guess I just worry not about the stigma, but that the school staff might get it in their heads that "This kid is going to be trouble" before they even get to know him and that they might treat him differently because of that, perhaps being more strict or harsh with him because they feel like they need to set the tone that "this behavior will not be tolerated." What do you mamas think about this concern?*


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## wytchywoman

Is there a risk of him being labeled? Yes. Labels are what get services in school. So he will need to be labeled as "something" if he is going to get any kind of help or accommodations at school. From my perspective, both as a mom of special needs kids and as a special ed teacher, carrying a SPD label is far better than carrying a "oh that kid, he's a real pain in the butt" label. If you suspect that there may be any meltdowns, any issues, any problems at school, then IMHO the best defense is offense. Alert them ahead of time that he has an SPD diagnosis and request that he be placed in the class with the least number of students possible. That way if there isn't any issues then he gets extra attention, and if there is he gets extra attention. Most schools are ok when it comes to special needs kids, but they need to know ahead of time who will have needs that have to be met.It's just my two cents, so do what you are most comfortable doing.


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## zinemama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Is there a risk of him being labeled? Yes. Labels are what get services in school. So he will need to be labeled as "something" if he is going to get any kind of help or accommodations at school. From my perspective, both as a mom of special needs kids and as a special ed teacher, *carrying a SPD label is far better than carrying a "oh that kid, he's a real pain in the butt" label.*

Not a mother of a special needs kid but a former teacher and I totally agree.

It strikes me as terribly unfair to send a child with as many issues as your son has into a classroom situation with no kind of plan in place to help him. If you don't get him "labeled" he won't get the services he should. And yeah, he will be considered a problem kid from day one if the verbal aggressiveness and abuse he displays toward you show up even a quarter of the time at school that it does in your home. Whereas staff are going to understand where he's coming from if you get him set up with an IEP.

You have tried everything (except medication) and this has been going on for such a long time. Your son needs the school on his side from day one. Please do what it takes to get him the services he needs at school so that he isn't "set up for failure," as you say.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Is there a risk of him being labeled? Yes. Labels are what get services in school. So he will need to be labeled as "something" if he is going to get any kind of help or accommodations at school. From my perspective, both as a mom of special needs kids and as a special ed teacher, carrying a SPD label is far better than carrying a "oh that kid, he's a real pain in the butt" label. If you suspect that there may be any meltdowns, any issues, any problems at school, then IMHO the best defense is offense. Alert them ahead of time that he has an SPD diagnosis and request that he be placed in the class with the least number of students possible. That way if there isn't any issues then he gets extra attention, and if there is he gets extra attention. Most schools are ok when it comes to special needs kids, but they need to know ahead of time who will have needs that have to be met.It's just my two cents, so do what you are most comfortable doing.

Hi Wytchy:

I appreciate the advice. I am really torn on the issue and can see it from both sides. Both my son's therapist (herself a former kindergarten teacher and now a child psychologist) and my parents (whose opinion I don't heed much, but it's just another voice asserting an opinion) thought it might be better if he didn't go into a situation where the staff expected him to be "trouble" from the get-go. The thought was "See how he does, and if he has trouble, we'll go from there."

I can see where this could also be problematic, but I am torn. While he does have some problems occasionally at his preschool, overall he has been pretty well-behaved at school and does really well with kids his own age. The aggression and defiance has been mainly targeted towards me and my parents.

I guess part of my concern is that I don't know the teachers and staff, so it makes it hard for me to understand how they react to things. I am hoping they would be positive and optimistic with him, but I guess I fear they could see him as a lost cause or something. I am not coming up with the right words. I just hate for him to be already judged before he even walks in the door.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a "small classroom." I think there are three kindergarten classrooms and all have somewhere around 25-27 kids. I asked he be placed into the classroom with the most beloved teacher who has been there for 25+ years. Every parent I talked to just raved about how wonderful she is, and I met her myself and saw how much all the children LOVED her. We could hardly walk down the halls because she gave out at least 100 hugs on our tour! It was great.

I guess this is one I will really have to think about a lot. Thanks for the input!


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## carliec76

Wow you sound like you have real challenge.

First it sounds like your son has trust and security issues. He doesn't feel like you can keep him safe so he is trying to play the part of Mama Bear. If he doesn't think you can keep him safe then he will be full of anger and fear. How you can turn it around I can't say. But showing him you are strong enough to handle it is a start. Sometimes being a passive Gentle discipliner can backfire because a strong willed child will see how easy it is to control you. Children need to know you can beat the bad guys away. Obviously you weren't able to protect him and that is a reality you can't change you can only do better in the future. I am with yo on the drugs...My son is a pain in the a and has defiance issues and anger issues. We tell him it is ok to be angry but you need to go somewhere private until you calm down and can talk. Boys have a hard time controlling that anger and can fly off the handle at the most ridiculous things. It is pretty normal behavior. At 4 they don't have much in the way of empathy and all you can do is lead and show him empathy. My son has improved over time with maturity. He is turning 6 and compared to 4 he is half the pain in the a he was then. Don't give up and just remember to breathe.
Create a safe spot for him to be angry at and teach him to take deep breaths.


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## Bisou

@Carliec:

Yes, I have seen some improvement as my son has gotten older, and I have really tried to hold off on medication unless I really see there is no other option. Things are rough right now, but I do think things are better overall then they were a year ago or so. I do encourage him to go to his room when he is angry, and I try to get him to do this before he is in trouble, but it doesn't always work.

@Everyone

While we did have some REALLY awful days on Sunday and Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday he was pretty awesome behavior-wise, just like he was in the few months prior to our move. He was respectful, kind, cooperative, and great to be around. He is a very smart guy, so it's fun to have conversations with him when he is not in a "mood."

He can be pretty funny too. For some reason this week he started calling me "Big Brain," which really struck my funny bone. He was saying, "Ok, Big Brain" when I was asking him to do stuff. Like, Me: "Hey, can you please put your clothes on for school?" Him: "Ok, Big Brain!"

But again, like wytchy pointed out, Tuesday and Wednesday were work/school days for us, so he was in his routine. I guess at this point on our days "off" together, which are Friday, Sat, Sun, Mon, I will just have to make him go do something with me. He seems to do fine when we get out of the house, but has a fit when we stay home, even when he says that's what he wants to do. So my new plan is just to plan some activity (the park, science museum, children's museum, swimming, etc) whether he wants to go or not.

I hope you all aren't cooking too much wherever you are. We are having 100 degree temps here. Portlanders aren't used to this weather, and while I am fortunate to have A/C, many people here don't! Yikes. We had five days of 100 degree plus weather last summer, including a day where it was 106! Geez! I don't live in Arizona or Texas for a reason!

Hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

~Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carliec76* 
Wow you sound like you have real challenge.

First it sounds like your son has trust and security issues. He doesn't feel like you can keep him safe so he is trying to play the part of Mama Bear. If he doesn't think you can keep him safe then he will be full of anger and fear. How you can turn it around I can't say. But showing him you are strong enough to handle it is a start. Sometimes being a passive Gentle discipliner can backfire because a strong willed child will see how easy it is to control you. Children need to know you can beat the bad guys away. Obviously you weren't able to protect him and that is a reality you can't change you can only do better in the future. I am with yo on the drugs...My son is a pain in the a and has defiance issues and anger issues. We tell him it is ok to be angry but you need to go somewhere private until you calm down and can talk. Boys have a hard time controlling that anger and can fly off the handle at the most ridiculous things. It is pretty normal behavior. At 4 they don't have much in the way of empathy and all you can do is lead and show him empathy. My son has improved over time with maturity. He is turning 6 and compared to 4 he is half the pain in the a he was then. Don't give up and just remember to breathe.
Create a safe spot for him to be angry at and teach him to take deep breaths.


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## wytchywoman

Yeah I live in AZ. But the good news is that everyone expects it to be hot so every residence has air conditioning and pretty much every apartment complex has a pool









As for the school, could there be a middle ground? Simply letting the school know that "my son has been diagnosed with SPD" and not providing details? You alert them to the potential need for an IEP but don't really give any info that would set hairs on edge prior to school starting. Anyways, it sounds like he got an awesome teacher which will make all the difference in the world.


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## Bisou

Hi wytchy:

You are lucky! The pools here are either inside, or outside and packed with about a million people. It would be really fun to live somewhere with a pool right now, but since Portland has rain 80% of the time, pools aren't very common here!

As for the school situation, I believe I did already note something on the form I gave the school when I requested the specific teacher. I probably will also mention to her that he has faced some trauma. Honestly, he is excited about school, so I am hoping for the best. The teacher seemed awesome, so that will be good. When my son can tell someone really cares about him, he often does better, though of course that seems to be negated when it comes to me!

Have a great weekend!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Again, hoping no news is good news. Was thinking about you on my way into work this morning and wondering how you guys have been doing. Hope all is well.


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## Xerxella

I just wanted to let you know. I have followed your posts from the beginning and you have been in my prayers often.

I had a thought today. You should print out this whole post from start to finish so someday when your son is older and working on putting his life/childhood into perspective he can see how it looked from your perpective while you were in the trenches of mommyhood.

You're a stong mommy. I bet someday you'll re-read these posts yourself and see how strong you are.


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## 2timestrouble

First of all, I want to send you a huge warm hug








I feel so sad for what you and your son have gone through, however I also feel very proud of you, I think you are amazing mom!
I have mix emotions of feeling sad about you and feel inspired by you, really.
I also think your son is an amazing kid because I can't imagine myself going through what he have gone through and still sane.
I haven't read all the post, I wish I could but my eyes are not helping me (is almost 2am)I'm sorry if I don't make to much sense right now.
I just couldn't stop reading, is like a movie...please don't take me wrong, I say in a very respectful way, I mean that it just amaze me how strong you are and how much love you have for your kid, it also warm my heart see how much people have answer you, this is so inspiring.
I need to go sleep now but I wanted to send you and your soon my best wishes, I will write you tomorrow.
PS: It is just one thing that have bother me since I read your original post and I just need to ask.
I am disgusted about the trauma that your little one suffer in the daycare, I had to read it twice because I thought I may read it wrong. I just can't believe somebody could do such a thing (well, unfortunately I can but still upset me). Did you ever suit the person that did this to your kid? I know money will not resolve your problems, and I understand that maybe he will be the same if this haven't happen, but, I also think that this could have being a big factor and the person or people have to be responsible for the damage.
same for the director of the school.
Maybe if you suit them and can get them to pay for your soon childcare you will not need to depend in your parents so at least that will be one less of your problems.

Take care.


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## 2timestrouble

Hi,
So today I start reading more about your post, and I just now realize that this post is 4 years old, so all my points I was thinking last night probably are not useful anymore








Your last post was in 2006 so I am sure many things have change since then, I hope things go better, and you and your son are doing great now.
Is he now 8, right?
How things are going?
Send you good vibes.


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## Katica

Hi, the first post is from 2009. your post isn`t irrelevant


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## newmum35

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xerxella* 
I had a thought today. You should print out this whole post from start to finish so someday when your son is older and working on putting his life/childhood into perspective he can see how it looked from your perpective while you were in the trenches of mommyhood.
























































































I hope you were kidding. How exactly is letting her son know (when he is older) that he put his mother through hell and back going to help him? He is going to have enough emotional issues as it is. NOBODY needs a guilt trip like that especially someone who has struggled with emotional issues for a good portion of his life.

I would suggest that when this is behind her, it is behind her. Have it deleted if you can. They are going to be too busy living in the present to dwell on the past. Who in the world would print out their struggles to relive at a later date or show their own son how difficult he was?

If I read an account of how difficult I made my mothers life when I was little, I'd want to crawl in a hole and die.


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## mlec

I'm sorry I can't read the whole thread, but your op SCREAMS *A*L*L*E*R*G**I*E*S*!!!! Chemical, food, environmental...please please please check out the book Is This Your Child by Doris Rapp. Even if you've had him tested before...she does a different kind of testing and the results are dramatic. Especially what you describe re his infancy and breastfeeding. It reminded me so much of my daughter, until we found out what was wrong (dairy, egg, soy, and chocolate allergies).

Also, I would recommend looking into Gut and Psychology Syndrome

I'll be praying for you guys.


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## sewchris2642

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 






















































































I hope you were kidding. How exactly is letting her son know (when he is older) that he put his mother through hell and back going to help him? He is going to have enough emotional issues as it is. NOBODY needs a guilt trip like that especially someone who has struggled with emotional issues for a good portion of his life.

I would suggest that when this is behind her, it is behind her. Have it deleted if you can. They are going to be too busy living in the present to dwell on the past. Who in the world would print out their struggles to relive at a later date or show their own son how difficult he was?

If I read an account of how difficult I made my mothers life when I was little, I'd want to crawl in a hole and die.

I think it's a great idea. Now that Erica has a child of her own and expecting #2 next month, we have been talking about her childhood and everything that went on. Part of why she sought answers as an adult were memories brought on by conversations about her childhood and her looking back at it. And it helps in raising her children. After half of who they are come from her. It can be no different than any other retelling of family history. The memories don't have to from the standpoint of "just see what you put me through!" but "look how far you have come; you have overcome so much, there isn't anything you cant do."


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## Lisa1970

Here goes....

I have 2 children with PDD-NOS. The first was medicated from 5.5-around his 8th birthday. The second, we avoided medications due to side effects and complications with the first.

We are now going to medicate the 8 yr old. He is worse off now than the older child was. I don't know if it was better to wait and try to go without or not. His self esteem is lower from not medicating. He does not mean to have the troubles he has, he just does. He does not really have friends. He is quite smart, but flips out on us and is not really enjoying life.

Now I have been reading how if you do not medicate when needed, they keep growing in such a way that will affect them negatively in the future. I don't want that.

My now 15 yr old is doing so well now, and he is no longer on medications, that NO ONE can tell he even ever had problems. He has been off meds for some time. NO ONE can tell. We are looking at colleges for him and he is in the gifted program in school and so on. The medication really helped him in the long run. I guess you have to weigh out the benefits vs the bad things. In the end, he was much better off medicated.

My 8 yr old has an appointment Aug 23 to start meds. I think maybe I wish we had given in sooner.

(((((hugs))))) Good luck, I know how hard it is,


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## Xerxella

I'm not kidding. I'm not saying throw it at him in a the middle of an argument. I'm saying keep it. You never know how you may want to reflect upon your life. Maybe Bisou will want to reflect upon her growth as a mom. Maybe her DS will be in therapy later in life and he will want to reflect upon his childhood from his mother's perspective. Maybe he'll be great and he'll be able to look back and see how far he's come. Maybe he'll never read it and never want to. But, if you don't save it now you won't get to later.

Sewchris, "The memories don't have to from the standpoint of "just see what you put me through!" but "look how far you have come; you have overcome so much, there isn't anything you cant do." " Definitely this. They've overcome so much together. There's nothing they can't over come.

Besides, you can never put your childhood "behind" you. It will always be a part of who you are.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

OMG, its been WAY to long since OP has updated. I hope everything is alright.


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## Bisou

Hi 2times:

The original posting is a little old, but I think the last time I posted was within a few months. I need to check!









My son is five years old and just started kindergarten last week.

Thanks so much for the helpful post and kind words. You all on Mothering.com have no idea how much you have helped me! I have very few family members and very little community, and my son's behavioral problems are something I don't want to share with the few friends we have because I don't want them to think "I don't want my child around YOUR child!" I just hope my son will be on his best behavior.

It's so great to have the moms on MDC for support. I REALLY appreciate it. None of you know me, yet you are willing to read out and provide me, a complete stranger, your support. It really means a lot.

THANK YOU.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *2timestrouble* 
Hi,
So today I start reading more about your post, and I just now realize that this post is 4 years old, so all my points I was thinking last night probably are not useful anymore








Your last post was in 2006 so I am sure many things have change since then, I hope things go better, and you and your son are doing great now.
Is he now 8, right?
How things are going?
Send you good vibes.


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## Bisou

Hi Lisa:

It sounds like you need a "Good Luck" too! It's SO hard to have children with behavioral problems. It's so often blamed on the parents and/or the child. I am a single mom, so I am really afraid of getting the "Well, he DOES have a single mom" phrase from people, and that has happened.

My son just started kindergarten and is doing ok, but it's a big stress for him, and for me too!

I will post a longer update in a minute.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
Here goes....

I have 2 children with PDD-NOS. The first was medicated from 5.5-around his 8th birthday. The second, we avoided medications due to side effects and complications with the first.

We are now going to medicate the 8 yr old. He is worse off now than the older child was. I don't know if it was better to wait and try to go without or not. His self esteem is lower from not medicating. He does not mean to have the troubles he has, he just does. He does not really have friends. He is quite smart, but flips out on us and is not really enjoying life.

Now I have been reading how if you do not medicate when needed, they keep growing in such a way that will affect them negatively in the future. I don't want that.

My now 15 yr old is doing so well now, and he is no longer on medications, that NO ONE can tell he even ever had problems. He has been off meds for some time. NO ONE can tell. We are looking at colleges for him and he is in the gifted program in school and so on. The medication really helped him in the long run. I guess you have to weigh out the benefits vs the bad things. In the end, he was much better off medicated.

My 8 yr old has an appointment Aug 23 to start meds. I think maybe I wish we had given in sooner.

(((((hugs))))) Good luck, I know how hard it is,


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## Bisou

Ok everyone, so here's an update.

A lot has happened in the last few months. We moved to our new condo in the end of May (the first place I have ever owned! I am so proud!), I made it through an insane summer teaching (summer terms in college are notoriously insane, fitting 11 weeks of coursework into 8 weeks), and my son just started soccer (for the first time) and kindergarten.

The last few months have had many ups and downs. It has been very hard for my son to adjust to our new place. Initially he kept asking to move back to our old place, even though our old place was tiny (one bedroom, one bath), and he has his own fancy room in our new place, complete with the bunk bed he has always wanted! He loves his new room, and he has finally come to terms with our new place and now talks about how much better it is than our old place. We can ride bikes here (something we couldn't do at our other place). There is a huge park right across the street, and two playgrounds within walking distance (again, something we didn't have at our other place). It's a much more kid-friendly area, and this is something we both like.

He did really well the first 3-4 days of kindergarten. On the first day, he told his teacher and adults, in a humorously sarcastic and irritated tone, "Looks like I brought my camera crew along today," because I had BOTH my video camera and regular camera going. I didn't want to miss a minute! The adults all erupted into laughter and were telling everyone, "Did you hear what that boy said? He said he brought his camera crew!" These are the moments when he shines: he can be incredibly funny and really witty beyond his years.

We walked the kids to class from the cafeteria, and when it was time to leave, I said, "I am going now, ok honey?" and he said, "Ok, GO!" (like "what are you waiting for?") and was completely fine with it. He was fine for the first 4-5 days, and then on Friday of his second week (they began the Friday before, so their first "week" of school was only one day), he started sobbing when it was time for me to go, and this has happened for the last three days (Friday, Monday, Tuesday). This has been hard for me. He keeps saying, "I miss you SO much Mommy." Poor guy.

On the positive side, his teacher is great. She has taught at this elementary school for 30 years and is retiring this year. She is much loved in the little neighborhood we live in, and many people here had her for their kindergarten teacher 25+ years ago. She is very comforting to the kids. When my son cried, she comforted him. She gives lots of back rubs, head pats, and hugs, and I am SO grateful she is his teacher.

Behavior-wise, things have been REALLY up and down. We had a few good weeks, and I was just about to post a positive update, and then we hit a REALLY BAD few weeks. I had a while where I was just so stressed with the move and everything that I was just yelling all the time and frustrated with everything he did. That was not a good time for either of us. I have now gotten myself back to an even keel and I just try to have a completely patient veneer when he is out of control.

We had one particularly bad weekend where my son was just totally out of control, screaming at the top of his lungs, hitting, peeing on stuff, biting, the whole nine yards. I called my mom for emotional support (which is a hit or miss proposition, but I have no one else to call), and she said "Your dad and I are coming down there. We will take him and he can just live with us." I wanted help, but they don't offer help, they just tell me what is going to happen. I don't appreciate being treated like a child who isn't able to handle things. I don't want someone to rescue me. I am not incapable, just overwhelmed, as any person would be in this situation. But they make me feel like a failure.

I honestly wanted them to just come down and perhaps have my dad take my son to the park for an hour while I had a chance to talk with my mom, vent, and just calm down and have a break from him. They didn't want to do that because they thought that was ridiculous, but instead they just thought they should take my son because obviously I "couldn't handle it." I don't understand how it's too much of a hassle to come down and give support for a few hours, but it's somehow easier for my parents, who both work full-time jobs, to take my son.







Does that make any sense?

I am not ok with my son living with my parents for several reasons. 1) I would feel I abandoned him and would feel extreme guilt. 2) I would fear he would feel abandoned by me. 3) My parents were abusive to me as a child (physically), and while they have never been abusive to my son (well, I guess they have spanked him 3-4 times, which I don't agree with!), they can be extremely crabby with him at times. There are many other reasons this is problematic too.

*When I didn't want my parents to take my son, they got really angry and my mom said she couldn't take this stress anymore, and that maybe it would just be better if they weren't in my life or my son's life anymore. She said things like "We will miss you and our grandson, but maybe it would just be better for everyone."* This was said in a really cold, mean tone. And angry. She was totally pissed at me like I did something awful to them. I guess it was giving birth to a child with "problems" and making their lives miserable. She continually tells me "We have NO life" because they take care of my son every weekend, at least for 24 hours, but when I say I will keep my son home, she says, "No, we WANT to see him. It's just tiring." My mom tends to do the martyr thing where she acts like her whole life is ruined and it's so hard, but then when I say, "Well, that's ok, I will just figure something else out," she says, "Oh no, no, no. We WANT to do this." They take care of him, but make me pay through guilt later.

So anyway, after my mom made these statements to me, after a day of COMPLETE HELL with my son, where I was completely at my wit's end, she hung up. At that point, I completely lost it. I should point out that at one point earlier in the day, things were so bad that I was just lying face down on the bed while my son was hitting me, just ignoring it, because I no longer had the physical or emotional energy to fight him. Nothing was working.

After my mom disowned us and hung up, I just broke down. I just sobbed and sobbed, and it lasted all day and into the next day. My son was really scared and really angry at my parents, and I felt SO awful about exposing him to this complete breakdown, but I absolutely couldn't help it, and I had no one to call.

This was the worst of the worst. I was thinking, "I am completely alone! I can't do this! I have no one! Why does no one love me? What is wrong with me? How can my parents be so cruel? Why do they blame me for this? This is not my fault, unless you are going to blame me for having a child out of wedlock, but even then, people get divorced. Even people who are married end up single moms. Did they not want to have any grandchildren? What is wrong with them? What can I do? I can't live like this!" etc etc etc







It was just absolutely awful, scary, heartbreaking, lonely.

The next day, after almost 24 hours of me constantly sobbing (NOT good for him! I know!), my son wanted to call my parents, and so I let him, and I was totally shocked at what happened. My son completely reamed them out, yelling at them for treating me this way, saying "You jerks! Mommy is crying and crying! What is WRONG with you? Why did you DO that??? I hate you! We don't ever want to see you again!" etc etc etc. He was just ranting and raving and screaming at them and pacing the floor. I was saying, "It's ok. Let me have the phone, honey" because I could see how clearly distraught he was. It was really awful.

*First of all, I want to say that I think this is completely sad and upsetting that he felt the need to defend me. I DON'T think it's ok.* He's a kid and shouldn't be exposed to this kind of trauma, and he shouldn't feel responsible for taking care of his own mom. He needs a stable, healthy parent, but often this is more than one person (heck, even two or three people!) can take.

But, that said, this made a HUGE impression on my parents. My mom asked him to put me on the phone so she could apologize. She said she had no idea things were so bad, that she didn't know what came over her and why she was so angry at me and so cold.

When I called my mom and she just completely abandoned me in my crisis, it was like I was drowning and desperately reaching out my hand, and my mom just got pissed at me, like "How dare you be drowning? Can't you do any better than that?"--- a phrase they say often, by the way, whenever my son is acting up. I want to say, "Ummm, if I could do better, or change this in some way, wouldn't I do that? Do you think I ENJOY this?" Actually, I have said something similar to them at times.

But, she did apologize. She said she had never seen my son so upset. Neither had I, at least not about something like this. I felt bad that he thought he needed to defend me, but I am also grateful for his words. My mom and I had a big talk after this where she said, "I know it's not your fault. I just get so angry. I don't know why I get so angry." We talked about a lot. She said it would never happen again. I still don't trust them, but it did feel like an improvement that we talked.

It's very hard being the parent of this child with so little support. No one wants to deal with it. I don't want to deal with it either, but he's my son, I love him, and I am really all he has.

Since he has started school, he is showing a few signs of anxiety and maybe OCD, and I am little worried about that. He started talking about germs, and constantly spitting and then wiping his mouth (and wiping the spit off) with his arm and sleeve. This has only been going on the past few days, but it's bad enough that he has almost completely scabbed over his lips and his face is red and chapped. He's never done anything like this before, and I am 99% sure it's being triggered by school. He keeps saying, "What if I touched my bottom and then touched my mouth? Is that ok?" and I say, "Well, did you touch your bottom?" and he says, "I don't know!" in a really upset tone. I've been saying, "It's ok honey. If you touched your bottom, wash your hands, but you don't need to worry about it." He was so upset about it he was just almost hysterical. "I think I have germs in my mouth! I don't want to have germs!" This is something he's never had before, so I am definitely concerned, but again, I think it's the stress of school. Poor guy.

His teacher said he's really sweet, and the other kids seem to be liking him. He already has a few friends. I am hoping things will go ok once he gets over the shock of the first few weeks. It's a long school day for him, as the kindergarteners in our school go for 6 hours (8am to 2pm) each day.

Right now, things are looking up in some respects. His behavior with me is a little better, and my behavior towards him is much better since I have regained my patience. He is taking time outs in his room, and this does seem to be calming him down. Once he's been in there for a few minutes, I will check to see if he's still in a rage, and if he is, I will just say, "Ok, well, when you feel calm, you can come out." Sometimes he gets out toys or books and plays for a few minutes. This is ok with me, as I just want him to calm down.

Anyway, that's my rambling and lengthy update. As usual, thanks for listening!


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## Oubliette8

Hugs. that sounds really rough. But major congrats on the new place! Are you in therapy yourself? Maybe it would help to have someone to support you both with your son and with the issues your parents bring. Sometimes, just having a neutral 3rd party to vent to can be a big relief, you know?

As far as the germ thing, do you know if they've been talking about germs in school? If they've been talking about germs and hygiene it could explain why he is suddenly so worried about it at home. I would ask, and then try to present a factual, balanced approach to germs. (Some germs are bad, but some germs are actually very good for us! You could explain that certain germs help us digest our food and everybody has them, and that being too clean can kill the good germs and let the bad germs take over, or something- like, its important to wash our hands, but if we forget, probably nothing bad will happen. And if we wash them too much, our hands will get hurt)


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

I second the suggestion PP made about perhaps they are talking about germs in school, and the impoartance of handwashing. I know just at my kids DAYCARE they are handing out free hand sanitizer. Perhaps it would help your son if you explained that some germs are actually a GOOD thing, if you think it wouldnt confuse him. He sounds like a very bright and articulate little boy, so perhaps this would help him a little?

Im so sorry your mother did that to you. They sound very passive aggressive, which I am sure you know, is a tactic used by emotional abusers. I know your resources are limited in the support department, and you have to have SOMEONE to lean on when things get rough. I hope your sons outburst was the eye opener they needed to get their heads out of the sand. But just incase, isnt there atleast one friend you have that you feel comfortable talking with this stuff about? I dont have many friends. But I do have one very dear friend. Shes childless and has never been married, and actually has a degree in early childhood education, and if I were in your shoes, she wouldnt hesitate to be by my side in such a situation. My point is, if I can have atleast one friend like that, anyone can. (Im trying to be funny here, its never been easy for me to have alot of close friends. Im introverted and always been an acquaitance kind of girl)

How is therepy going for you and him?


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## Surfacing




----------



## Bisou

Hi Oubliette:

Yes, it has been rough! I have been trying to get therapy through my insurance for over a year. I have Kaiser insurance, and they have just been AWFUL. In addition to my son's behavioral issues and the stress of being a single parent, I had someone try to break into our home a year ago (not where we live now!) to rape me and assault me with a deadly weapon. He was a stranger but a neighbor. Obviously this has caused me some serious issues. Even with all of this going on, Kaiser was unable to get me into someone who could see me more than once every 1-2 months! When I complained, I was given a second therapist (two therapists at the same time), and even then, I was unable to get in more than every 1-2 months. They are totally backed up with clients and then they go on vacation. One therapist went to Turkey for two months. Anyway, it's been massively frustrating. I have talked to the head of the department several times, and they just refer me to group counseling (which, of course, is more cost effective for them), but they don't have a PTSD or trauma group, just Anxiety and Depression. In the group, the majority of the people are so dysfunctional that they can hardly take a shower in the morning, and many of them have been institutionalized. Definitely NO JUDGEMENT on my part of these people, but it ends up being more depressing for me because I think "How did these people end up like this? Could I end up like this?" It's hard to be around a group of people who are so dysfunctional because I am super sensitive and I get so depressed for them and it also kind of scares me because I wonder if I could end up so depressed or anxious that I couldn't even function. (I just want to be clear that it has nothing to do with not wanting to be around these people, but more that I just feel so sad and depressed about their situations that I end up leaving group feeling worse!)

Anyway, enough about that!

I've thought about trying to find my own counselor, but counseling is SO expensive. Right now I am paying over $200 a month in co-payments just for my son's therapy and occupational therapy co-payments, and that's a lot for me. I just bought my first place, and I don't get child support because my son's dad disappeared when I was pregnant, so every penny is precious.

I have thought about trying a church for counseling, but I don't know. I wouldn't want to be getting a sermon every time, or "Just ask God to help you." I guess it would really depend on the person.

I am also not considered low income, so I can't qualify for low income counseling. I just have a lot of expenses (home, insurance [medical, car, home], medications, etc etc etc).

If anyone has any good counseling ideas, let me know!


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie!

I might be the culprit in starting the germs thing. I am definitely not obsessive about it, but they do NOT wash hands at his school, which concerned me, so I said, "Honey, if they are not having you wash your hands, YOU need to wash your hands, especially before you eat." At his preschool, they had the kids wash hands several times a day, but this is not happening at his school. I didn't make a huge deal about it.

The thing that's weird is that he is really freaking out about something in his mouth, saying he has germs in his mouth, or hair, or "something," and he kept spitting over and over on his shoulder and arm, then wiping his face with his arm and sleeve. His poor little face is totally chapped and his lips almost scabbed over. He's never really displayed this kind of anxious behavior before, but I guess it totally makes sense with school. It's a huge change, a big school (hundreds of kids after coming from a preschool with 8 kids!), a new (albeit wonderful!) teacher, and all new kids.

Much to my relief, so far his teacher has said he is a "wonderful, sweet, and very sensitive little boy." I have talked to him a lot about making a good impression with both his teachers and other students. We've talked about how some kids might be mean and how he can try to turn that around by talking to the kid, but if that doesn't work, to walk away or get help from an adult, if needed. He seems to be doing well socially, and I hope he continues in this vein!

He also asked to start soccer, which we did the night before his first day of school. I've tried to take him to soccer, dance, and gymnastics before, and every time it ended in him crying and being afraid to try, even with me sitting there. I was hoping it wouldn't be the same this time, but he was totally ready and LOVED it. I am seeing some good changes in him, and I think that this is very good for his self esteem.

I think being in the same house and same school for several years will help him as well. We have moved five times in six years (since I was pregnant with him). We have endured abuse at two daycares, the death of my two last grandparents, a break-in attempt, and surgeries for mom. It's been A LOT. I am hoping that we can finally have some stability for a few years.

On the friends end of things, this is something I REALLY need help with, however that might happen. I am very extroverted and make friends easily, but I always seem to have a hard time when it gets 6-12 months or so (sometimes longer) into the friendship and we start sharing things. I don't feel like I am a person who burdens people with my troubles. I am definitely a good listener and someone people can lean on. If you're sad or having a bad day or your boyfriend is being a jerk or whatever, you can talk to me about it. I WANT to hear about it. However, I often seem to have friends who don't want to hear about anything that's going on with me.

My closest friend of ten years actually broke off our friendship within a week of my son being seriously abused at his daycare (visible damage to the genital area) when he was two. In her "breakup email," she said, "Your life is a smorgasbord of sh*t," a comment I will never forget.

I guess I could understand blaming me for this if it were my fault (like I was a drug user or alcoholic, or if I always dated jerk guys, or something), but most of my problems have been completely out of my hands and not something I brought upon myself.

Anyway, this is something I've thought about posting about on another thread, as it's been a huge source of sorrow for me. Since I've had several friends "break up" with me in this fashion, I now have several acquaintances, but everything in my life, all my troubles, I keep secret. I just act like everything is wonderful and dandy and fine. And then I end up feeling fake or like these people don't really know me, but I am scared. They tell me about their problems, and I listen, commiserate, sympathize, support, and offer advice (when asked), but I don't share my problems. As a result, I don't have any friendships that I would really call close. I am too scared. I have been burned many times. I don't exactly understand why it goes the way it has. I am very warm, loving, giving, and affectionate, and I am also pretty fun (if I do say so myself!). It's really been since my son has been born that I've really had MAJOR problems with friendships. I think part of it is that I don't have as much to give as I once did. I don't know. I can't quite figure it all out.

We have always had a small family and one that's not very close. The only family members I really have contact with are my parents. My parents are more or less estranged from their siblings, and I don't have grandparents anymore. I really miss having family, and holidays are VERY hard for me. I am the kind of person who would love to have 100 cousins and 20 aunts and uncles. Growing up, I had only six cousins, counting both sides of the family, and I am really only in contact with one of those cousins occasionally. I have a brother, but he is a little odd, a little hermit-like and into weapons and that kind of stuff (seriously, he has like automatic machine guns and probably 30-40 guns and various weapons!), so we are not close.

Anyway, I am rambling again. But I do really crave friendship and love, not necessarily romantic love (though that would be nice!), but just close friendship. I would love to have a friend that I could call, sniffling, and have her say, "I will be right over!" I am the kind of person who would do that for my friends, though it is more difficult to do when you have a child, as you don't want to involve a child in anyone's emotional drama, even if you want to help. It's all so complicated.

Many times I long for the old days of the village where everyone knew and supported each other, though I am sure I am over-romanticizing it.

Maybe I need to go live in a commune!









Thanks you guys for your postings.

I think things are looking up for my son. I remain optimistic!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
I second the suggestion PP made about perhaps they are talking about germs in school, and the impoartance of handwashing. I know just at my kids DAYCARE they are handing out free hand sanitizer. Perhaps it would help your son if you explained that some germs are actually a GOOD thing, if you think it wouldnt confuse him. He sounds like a very bright and articulate little boy, so perhaps this would help him a little?

Im so sorry your mother did that to you. They sound very passive aggressive, which I am sure you know, is a tactic used by emotional abusers. I know your resources are limited in the support department, and you have to have SOMEONE to lean on when things get rough. I hope your sons outburst was the eye opener they needed to get their heads out of the sand. But just incase, isnt there atleast one friend you have that you feel comfortable talking with this stuff about? I dont have many friends. But I do have one very dear friend. Shes childless and has never been married, and actually has a degree in early childhood education, and if I were in your shoes, she wouldnt hesitate to be by my side in such a situation. My point is, if I can have atleast one friend like that, anyone can. (Im trying to be funny here, its never been easy for me to have alot of close friends. Im introverted and always been an acquaitance kind of girl)

How is therepy going for you and him?


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

OH Bisou,

For a "friend" to abandon you after the HORRIFIC insident with your son and his former "DCP" She was really no friend at all. Who does that?!?!?! I MEAN WTH!?!?!?!

If I remember correctly, you are on the other side of the US from me. Have you tried Finding Your Tribe to see if there are MDC mamas in your area? You need a support system mama, and you need something other then what your parents are providing you. AS youve said, just a shoulder to cry on occasionally would be nice.

For now I will just have to settle for sending you virtual hugs. I wish I could do more, I trully trully do!


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## Surfacing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
The thing that's weird is that he is really freaking out about something in his mouth, saying he has germs in his mouth, or hair, or "something," and he kept spitting over and over on his shoulder and arm, then wiping his face with his arm and sleeve. *His poor little face is totally chapped and his lips almost scabbed over.*

This is a red flag for me WRT OCD... is he in control of his anxiety, or is it in control of him? Poor little guy. Not sure when you're going to be seeing his HCP or counsellor(s) again, but this seems important to mention.

You are doing a great job Mama.


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## Minxie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I am also noticing his sensitivities to sounds, like the other day when I was scraping a pan with a metal spatula and he said it "hurt" when I did that. He has also decided he likes being squeezed by me as hard as I can squeeze him.

A friend whose child is very similar recommended a weighted blanket to help with the sensory stuff:

http://www.weightedblanket.net/

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
When I was a kid, my mom often used to say to me, "Sometimes I don't like you, but I always love you." I always thought that was an awful thing to say because it didn't make sense to me that someone could not like you as a person, but still love you. I definitely don't want to even hint at that sentiment with my son, so I try to make it clear that while certain behaviors make me unhappy, I always love him and like him! I might say, "I am angry right now because you just bit me, and I am REALLY mad, but I still love you."

When my DS does something that makes me angry, I stress that it is his BEHAVIOR that I don't like.

"I don't like your behavior when you are rude to me but I always love you."

Lastly I also am a single mom of a four-year-old boy who has moved several times over the course of two years (in our case). The one thing that most helped him to be comfortable in our house was to be able to draw on one of the walls in his room, effectively "marking is territory."

I hope these small suggestions might help you all and that you are able to work through all of this.


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie:

WOW. I haven't updated for a long time. I wrote all this, but then saved it to finish later. Here it is!

It was REALLY shocking when my friend ditched me after my son was abused at daycare. We had been really good friends for ten years. She was the most wonderful kind of friend who would bring you soup when you were sick or a bouquet of flowers when you were having a bad day. She was always the person I could call when things were rough, and I did the same for her. When I found out I was pregnant (and single at the time, having broken up with my son's dad about two months prior, so it was a big "WHOA! WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!") she was the first person I called. It was a really wonderful reciprocal relationship, probably the best friendship I ever had.

Then she moved to NYC, got this new fancy boyfriend who was a film producer (and British, which she also was obsessed with!), and had a completely different life. She was super happy, super successful in all realms, getting her PhD. She doesn't have kids. I think that she became really self-centered. I also think she was really happy with her life, and she didn't want anything to pop that happiness bubble. But seriously, it wasn't like I brought that on myself or my son! I was so shocked when she did that.

She was in Portland to visit with the new fancy boyfriend. This horrific abuse had happened to my son only a few days prior; however, she and her boyfriend were set to stay at my place for a few days while they visited Portland. I had a guest room, but no bed in it, so I went and bought a brand new mattress in preparation for them because I wanted it to be nice. That's how I am. I wasn't about to have them sleep on the floor! I spent two days cleaning the place from top to bottom. Of course she didn't require any of this or ask for it, but I was so happy to see her and host them that I was doing it because it made me happy to make a place for them.

As she was leaving NYC and arriving in Portland, we talked on the phone a few times about what happened to my son, and she was very detached. During one conversation where I had been talking about the abuse and was just devastated, she abruptly said, "Hey, I was going to ask you about bed and breakfasts. How do you find one that's not all grandma-frilly-lacy but actually cool? I know you've stayed at some cool ones." This was literally in the midst of me sobbing about my son having the skin ripped off his genitals by a daycare worker! I was just flabbergasted. I chalked it up as her not having anything to say or not knowing what to say and just wanting to not think about it.

Then she arrived in the NW, and went to visit her parents in Washington first before she was due to stay with me in Portland. She didn't return my calls, but I thought she was just busy with her family, whom she hadn't seen in a year. They were due to arrive on Friday. I had the house beautifully cleaned and a brand new bed and linens, and I couldn't wait to see her.

On Friday I called a few times trying to figure out when they would arrive. She never answered or called me back. Then Friday evening she called late and left a message saying, "Ummm, our plans have changed. We might be able to get together for a drink this afternoon for 30 minutes or so, if we have time. I am not sure. We aren't going to be staying at your place."

Now, if my son had been there, I might have understood that because maybe they felt like it would be too much drama going on, but he was at my parents for the weekend and I had arranged everything around their visit. I was SO upset that they bailed on me, then acted like maybe they could "squeeze me in" (I think she even said that) when they had originally planned to stay with me for 2-3 days, and she waited until a few hours before they were supposed to arrive to even call.

Anyway, enough about that old wound!

I have been trying to build some friendships here with other single moms, but I am always afraid about sharing too much. Many of my mom friends have kids who are just perfectly calm and behaved and have no "issues" whatsoever, and they simply can't understand why my son acts the way he does and why I don't just "make him mind." I am also always afraid of getting ditched again, so I don't really share much of my life or feelings, which makes the relationships seem really superficial. Right now I am really confused about the role of friendships in my life, because what I think a friendship is (sharing the good times and bad, being supportive for each other) doesn't seem to fit other people's definition of what a friendship is.

Anyway, this isn't necessarily relevant for the gentle discipline forum, but I will post an update soon about how things have been going for my son (in short, it's been good and bad!).

Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
OH Bisou,

For a "friend" to abandon you after the HORRIFIC insident with your son and his former "DCP" She was really no friend at all. Who does that?!?!?! I MEAN WTH!?!?!?!

If I remember correctly, you are on the other side of the US from me. Have you tried Finding Your Tribe to see if there are MDC mamas in your area? You need a support system mama, and you need something other then what your parents are providing you. AS youve said, just a shoulder to cry on occasionally would be nice.

For now I will just have to settle for sending you virtual hugs. I wish I could do more, I trully trully do!


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## wytchywoman

Bisou, do you have a support group for parents of special needs kids in your area? You'd have better luck making friends with parents of SN kids, honestly because so many of us have seen the same behavior in our own children and really wouldn't be too phased by it, kwim? Some towns have broad support groups for any special needs kids, others have several specific ones. Maybe joining a group for parents of autistic children might be helpful. Your son may not be on the spectrum but does have some moderate sensory needs and the parents may have some helpful tips for you, as most kids with autism have high sensory needs too.


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## Bisou

Hi wtchywoman:

That's an interesting suggestion. I have gravitated more to single parent groups because sometimes it's awkward to be around families with both a mom and a dad. It seems to emphasize for my son what he's missing, and it's nice to be around families that look like ours. I guess I need a group for single parents with special needs kids! Ha ha ha.

With my son, he often doesn't seem "special needs" in public. That happens more at home, around me or my parents (his grandparents). So it's sometimes more an issue of people not understanding why I don't want to do a, b, or c with them because they don't get that my son can't handle it.

For example, I have a very dear single mom friend, and we hang out a lot. Her son is 2, about to turn 3. My son is about 5 1/2. Lately her son has been screaming a lot, mainly goofing around (like making roaring dinosaur sounds), but my son can NOT handle it. We took a drive in my car with both kids in car seats in the back, and my son was just going insane with the screaming. I've tried to talk to my friend about my son's sensory processing issues, but she just doesn't get it, and I understand that her son is just being a normal kid. Those kinds of things are hard.

On the positive side, he is loving kindergarten for the most part and has the most amazing teacher! So I am hoping things are looking up for him overall. He has also been playing soccer for the first time and doing really well with that.

We had a hard week between the two of us with him not wanting to listen to anything I said, and I lost my temper too many times (sigh), but overall I feel like we are on the upswing.

Thanks for the post!


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## provocativa

I haven't gotten through all the pages, and can't remember what I posted! But I wanted you to know that my kids had lead poisoning, which is a different etiology than spectrum disorders or sensory disorders, but similar pathology. They have tantrums and emotional / behavioral issues when exposed to food additives, dairy, and some plant chemicals, namely salicylates. This is due to liver disfunction from genetics and the exposure. They are extremely VIOLENT to self but mostly others when exposed to wheat. We have actually had to bring their carseats in and put them in time out in them to prevent injury to us and them when they get exposed. We then start the time-in while they are still in the carseat, and let them out when they are able to be hugged without slugging. Wheat is also implicated in many mental illnesses, including bipolar and schizophrenia. All autoimmune disorders, including lupus, are considered gluten-associated medical conditions by researchers in the field. As you are vegetarians, you may be consuming a much higher salicylate and wheat load than omnivores. I apologize if I am duplicating other posts. I do empathize mama, it is hard for us to go anywhere, my youngest has little impulse control and both melt down like a volcano when triggered, esp. if their sals load or histamine levels are high.


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## Bisou

Hi Provocativa:

Thanks for the post. I don't think you repeated anything you've posted to me elsewhere, so thanks for the info. It was the postings of several people here that got me to look into SPD, and that has been extremely helpful.

My son's violent behavior has really decreased in the last months. It's not completely gone, and there still are bad times, but when he was younger, he used to try to hurt me as bad as he could possibly hurt me. Now he might hit or scratch, but usually it's not as intense as it used to be.

He seems to be doing well in kindergarten. He was sick for two days last week and said he wanted to go back to school and couldn't wait, which is not usual for him (at least when he was in daycare), so that's cool. His teacher is awesome. He's having a few problems getting along with other kids here and there, but his teacher said it's not a huge problem. He tends to dig his heels in and get really stubborn.

Anyway, that's for the info. We definitely eat a lot of gluten, I think, and the idea of trying to cut that out of our already restricted diet seems daunting. I have never noticed any reactions after eating. Usually, after he's eaten he is really calm. It's when he hasn't eaten a while that he has major problems!


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## wytchywoman

My sons both have issues when they get hungry, my older son especially. He just absolutely flips a wig when he's hungry, to the point that I suspect that he has reactive hypoglycemia (my mom has it too which made me start questioning if that was part of the problem with him). Even at 17 he still trips out, it's just verbally now, where as it used to be really physical too, but either way it has always been that he simple could not be reasoned with. One of the things I do is ALWAYS make sure I have snacks for him, ALWAYS! In the car, at school, wherever. I now purchase a few of his favorite snack items (peanuts are a big one, and they are high in protein which helps stabilize blood sugar) and he keeps them in his room to munch on throughout the day.
As far as gluten goes, this may or may not be the case, but kids on the spectrum and with SPD disorders often get an endorphin high from eating glutens. They come to crave them because of the chemical reaction it causes in their brains, and when they crash it can be really harsh. I get how hard it is to restrict an already restrictive diet, I'm GF and vegan, but if you can even minimize the gluten eating that will help. This is a transition that I would make slowly, and gradually start investigating GF foods that you both like that can replace the gluten foods you already eat. Let me know if you are interested in investigating this. I can steer you towards some of the products I have found to be the tastiest options so that you don't waste your money on the stuff that's icky


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## Petie1104

Sorry I didn't read through the 17 pages of replies, wow this is a supportive group!! I love that. At any rate, I wanted you to know that you are not alone. I have gone through this, though my daughter wasn't abused, so I don't have that as a reason for her behavior. The holding him "like he's in a straight jacket" well, in essence you are correct, but straightjackets are only used to protect the person from themselves and from harming others, which is what this technique attempts to do. When he headbutts, it means you aren't holding him closely enough. There is a reason to use this technique and it is valid, he is either hurting himself or others. I felt like this horrible mother for having to do this, but the results speak for themselves, they do learn control. Risperdal was necessary for dd but that wasn't ALL we did. That along with therapy and specific techniques at home added to her healing. Yes, she is still difficult and we still have days when I worry about her behavior and wonder if another meltdown is coming, but overall she has improved greatly. Here is the really amazing news, she started on Risperdal when she was 3, she is now 7 and completely medication free. That is the ultimate goal, give them the meds while they are necessary always working towards the day when you will no longer need them. If your parents are against you medicating, then your parents need to be put back in their place. They are no longer an authority figure in your life but are supposed to be a support. If they cannot be supportive, then they need to at least keep quiet. Hang in there, and most importantly, remember it is not your fault. My dd's psych had to tell me that repeatedly one day when she had a complete meltdown in his waiting room. After her therapist removed her, I broke down bawling in front of everyone there, I got mixed looks from sympathy to disgust, then her psych came out, looked at me in front of everyone and said, "This is NOT your fault, let's go talk". Every day when I get worn and worried and overwhelmed I see him standing in front of everyone telling me that it is not my fault.

This is NOT your fault. And if you ever need to talk you can PM me.


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## Bisou

Petie:

Thanks SO much for your post! I really needed it tonight. I had a HORRIBLE night with my son. He just kept tantruming and refusing to do anything I asked (clean up his toys, brush his teeth, etc) and we ended up in a two-hour tantrum. Since he wasn't hurting me or himself, which has improved a bit in the past few months, I had him in his room having a time out, but then he started damaging things. I was trying to sit on the couch, read a book, and just let him work it out and calm down, which he has gotten better at doing, but he was just escalating things and really trying to get me upset (or so it seemed). Unfortunately I lost my temper, screamed, yelled, said things I regret, and acted in a way that I am completely not proud of. I feel like crap and like the worst mom. It's SOOOOOO hard, especially since I am completely alone. I've often said I feel like I am in an abusive relationship, but there's no breaking up with this one. I just have to stay and keep trying. Things eventually ended with both of us physically and emotionally exhausted and sobbing. SO CRAPPY. I just feel terrible. I was abused as a child and when he gets so out of control it really pushes my buttons and sometimes brings out this rage that is stored away deep inside me from my childhood. It's just not good.

I appreciate what you said about how it's not my fault. I tell myself that, but I don't think I really believe it. I blame myself for being too stressed out and depressed when I was pregnant. I was completely alone, had pre-term labor, was on bed rest, and my grandma died, who was the single most important person in my life, so of course I was stressed. I blame myself for his loser dad who has never met him because, of course, I was the one who got pregnant by such a loser. I blame myself for not being patient enough, for not playing with him enough, for the house not being clean enough, for not being a strong enough disciplinarian, or for then being over the top and losing my temper. I blame myself for SO MANY THINGS. I feel like if he was on medication it would be my fault because I didn't try hard enough, wasn't patient enough, wasn't a good enough mom.

I wish I could stop doing it to myself, but as you pointed out in your post, our society (strangers and sometimes, sadly, friends and family) reinforce these feelings. My parents are always saying, "You need to do better than this" when my son is out of control and I am at my wit's end. They say, "What you're doing is not working. You need to try something else" when I HAVE already tried something else, about a million times. I have had friends who have told me that I need to be more strict or that they've seen me "letting him get away with stuff," and that if I would only crack down on him harder, put him in a time out, and just say, "I will NOT accept that behavior," (which, of course, I have done a MILLION times), that he will just magically be calm and behaved.

I just recently met another single mom who has a child like mine. She just "came out" with some of the truth about her daughter's behavior, and boy, we both wish we knew each other years ago! She is the ONLY person who can understand (aside from you here who have kids with difficulties/challenges!). All of the rest of my friends have children who are as meek as lambs, who will cry and feel remorseful at just a stern look! It has been comforting to know that I am not the only one when she calls and says, "I am having a crappy day. My daughter has been screaming that she hates me all day and threw all of her toys down the stairs and is just out of control. It sucks so bad." I can say, "Yep, I've been there!"

I have seen improvements in my son over the past months. We moved at the end of May, and he just now seems to be adjusting to our new home and feeling comfortable. He loves his kindergarten teacher and is making friends. He is learning to read and write and is very excited about his learning, constantly walking around making letter sounds and asking about words. That has been exciting.

*Somehow I need to figure out a way to distance myself emotionally from what is happening when he's out of control so I don't get sucked into the vortex.* It's like I will be doing fine for a while, then I suddenly get sucked in and I become out of control too. I am thinking (and sometimes saying







) things like, "Damn it! YOU WILL STOP THIS RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL MIND ME!" Then I end up dealing with intense feelings of guilt and remorse, feeling like a bad mom, and that is almost worst than dealing with his awful behavior. How can I help him calm down if I can't stay calm myself? What kind of crappy role model am I? Sometimes it seems like a superhuman task, especially when his tantrum goes on for hours.

I think what also made this worse is that I've been sick for almost two weeks, and I am just completely and totally exhausted. I was trying to get him in bed, and I wasn't successful at moving him in that direction. I haven't had any time to rest and recover, when I should have spent at least two days in bed. Instead I've been working and being mom. Being sick and a single mom is the WORST part of being a single mom, as there is no calling in sick to parenting. No matter how bad I feel, I still have to get up at 6:30, feed him, make sure he has clean clothes, get him to school on school days, get groceries, etc. It's so unbelievably hard sometimes!

Sigh.

Ok, enough complaining from me. Thanks for reading and continuing to be so supportive. Seriously, you have all been such lifesavers for me. THANK YOU.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Petie1104* 
Sorry I didn't read through the 17 pages of replies, wow this is a supportive group!! I love that. At any rate, I wanted you to know that you are not alone. I have gone through this, though my daughter wasn't abused, so I don't have that as a reason for her behavior. The holding him "like he's in a straight jacket" well, in essence you are correct, but straightjackets are only used to protect the person from themselves and from harming others, which is what this technique attempts to do. When he headbutts, it means you aren't holding him closely enough. There is a reason to use this technique and it is valid, he is either hurting himself or others. I felt like this horrible mother for having to do this, but the results speak for themselves, they do learn control. Risperdal was necessary for dd but that wasn't ALL we did. That along with therapy and specific techniques at home added to her healing. Yes, she is still difficult and we still have days when I worry about her behavior and wonder if another meltdown is coming, but overall she has improved greatly. Here is the really amazing news, she started on Risperdal when she was 3, she is now 7 and completely medication free. That is the ultimate goal, give them the meds while they are necessary always working towards the day when you will no longer need them. If your parents are against you medicating, then your parents need to be put back in their place. They are no longer an authority figure in your life but are supposed to be a support. If they cannot be supportive, then they need to at least keep quiet. Hang in there, and most importantly, remember it is not your fault. My dd's psych had to tell me that repeatedly one day when she had a complete meltdown in his waiting room. After her therapist removed her, I broke down bawling in front of everyone there, I got mixed looks from sympathy to disgust, then her psych came out, looked at me in front of everyone and said, "This is NOT your fault, let's go talk". Every day when I get worn and worried and overwhelmed I see him standing in front of everyone telling me that it is not my fault.

This is NOT your fault. And if you ever need to talk you can PM me.


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## Petie1104

No problem. We actually had a bad day today too. We are moving and the movers are here and dd didn't take to that too well.

Oh, just thought I'd let you know. If you are a bad mom, then I win the bad mom award of the year. DD about a year ago, attacked my mom with a steak knife. No exaggerations, she went after her. My mom had to fend her off. The difference between my situation and yours is that my mom lived with us at the time and knew what we were facing. I've had to get stitches for my youngest son because she attacked him, and I've literally got scars from her attacking me. She killed a kitten and after that we had to keep the pets far away from her when we couldn't watch carefully. So, I do know how you feel and you are most definately NOT a bad mom. I have cursed at my daughter at times and I feel horrible for it, but in a sense I'm glad that she can see that her behavior does affect me. What I have found most useful, when she's losing it, and this will sound horrible, is I pretend that she isn't my child. If someone else's child were in my care and behaving that way, how would I react. I distance myself from mentally from the situation and go through the motions and once she is under control, I walk outside and scream or cry or whatever I need to do. I allow myself that, but not until she is under control. I would restrain when necessary and walk away when it wasn't necessary to restrain. I trained myself to whisper when I was angry and she was around me, and most importantly, I kept my hands busy. If I'm chopping an onion I'm not going to haul off and hit her, which I'm sad to say got very tempting at times, and at times still does. Just some coping strategies that I've found. I also always, after I had cool down time and she had cool down time, I'd talk to her. Gave her a script on what to say when she was upset and went over it time and time again. Due to the attacking of the younger brother and the attacking of my mother, she was almost put into an institution at 6 YEARS OLD! I fought her psych on that. All I could see, when they said that was my baby (who though at times I wanted to hurt her, I still loved and this cemented that in my mind) all I saw was my baby being taken away from everything familiar to be put into a room she didn't know without anything comforting crying her eyes out. That scared me and that is when I got honest with her. I told her what was possibly coming because I didn't want her to go into unaware, and that is when she got serious about working on her behavior. Of course, she was 6 and the threat was real, her psych was one incident away from calling in the authorities to remove her from our home. Oh my, I can't believe I vented like that, it is quite therapeutic though.

At any rate, hang in there, it will get better. And remember to take some time to yell and scream and let off steam, just not with him around. Oh and if the therapist he goes to isn't interested in continuous therapy at least once a week, then find a new therapist. This takes effort and time and alot of work on everyone's part. And punishment does NOT fix this behavior, there is much more to it than that. Time outs are OK, but remember that they are for you as much as they are for him. Phrase it that way too. "Look son, mommy needs a time out from this right now, so you need to go into your room and calm down and mommy is going to step outside and calm down, we'll talk when we both feel calmer." It's amazing how much them knowing that you are frustrated too helps them, which is part of the reason they push our buttons, they are upset and they want you to feel what they are feeling, if you explain that you are feeling that way too, many times it diffuses the situation a little.

Wow, I rambled again, sorry.


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## peaceful_mama

I've been reading and following this post...*hugs* my dd is a little bit like this but slowly changing....she does things like find a hard plastic toy to come out and throw at me when I send her for time out in her room.

what makes me feel worse is we *do* have dad around and she LISTENS to him...*sigh*

oh and the gem from the other day she forgot to put shoes on and ran outside. So I came out with the shoes and asked her to come back and put them on...she took off running and laughing around the block. That's so typical.....I did eventually get her inside to stay--it was about dark anyway by that time. But I'm so sick of stupid little stuff like that going that way. My oldest never *thought* to do this kind of stuff.


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## Naomi

Regarding the germs & spitting -- that really sounds like OCD to me. I had OCD as a child, with a particular focus on poisoning. I was convinced that I would eat something I shouldn't while on autopilot, and would spit into my sleeve to get rid of the thing I was suddenly convinced I'd eaten.

The book _What to Do When Your Brain Gets Stuck_ by Dawn Huebner is a really excellent book on OCD for kids. I highly recommend it. She also has one on anxiety, one on anger management, one on negativity, and a few others. They're really good, full of analogies to help kids understand the problem and practical strategies for overcoming it.

You might also take a look at the book _The Explosive Child_, if you haven't before.

Good luck.


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## meemee

one thing we keep forgetting bisou is the regular stuff that also happens under everything else.

if your son has been out of it - really bad these last few days, it could be hormonal.

the worst my dd has ever been, EVER was when seh was going thru hormonal changes at 5. by 6 she had body odor. but 8 breast buds.

we forget about pre puberty. pre puberty is hard, HARD on kids. its like the teenage years showing up for a few weeks or months and then going away and leaving behind this suddenly mature child.

having that in mind, it really helped me deal with compassion rather than being angry ALL the time. sometimes of course i was. but it helped to empathise with dd.


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## kittn

i wanted to say, you described my sammy (6 now). it is better now but still not fantastic. we do deal wit a lot of bad days. we did not medicate, but in the future we may need to as sam is gettin taller and isnt so small. a lot of sammys issues are sensory related. sammy also is on te autism spectrum. we find beavior plans dont work for long with him. but every few weeks/months we try a new one. always positive and fun for all. i know its crappy, i often just cry feeling like im illequiped to be sams mom, since it is always worse with me. he seems fine at school as well


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## Bisou

I see that a few people have posted great postings, and I want to reply, but I am in a bit (ok A LOT) of a crisis mode right now.

My son and I just returned from his regular weekly session with his child psychologist. Though I have occasionally disagreed with her approach on a few things, in general I've found her extremely helpful and grounding for me. I feel like she's shown me how to drawn clear boundaries for my son and has helped a lot with problem solving and giving me various different ways to address my son's problems.

*TODAY WAS THE WORST SESSION I HAVE EVER HAD WITH HER AND HIM, AND I FEEL LIKE I JUST PARTICIPATED IN SOMETHING THAT FELT LIKE ABUSING MY SON.*























After I explain, I'd like your insight on what happened.

The last few times my son and I have gone to see the therapist, he's been increasingly defiant---refusing to pick up toys and whatnot. The deal is that he plays for 45-50 minutes, and in the last 5 minutes or so, we all help clean up. All three of us do the cleaning up, the therapist and I included, so it's collaborative. The last few times my son has not participated even though he was told he had to, but he has refused.

So this time when we arrived at the session, the therapist had 5-6 small toys out on the rug and said my son had to clean them up before we could play. It was a small thing and something he could easily do. She didn't push him but just let him sit there and play with the balloon he had brought with him. Every few minutes she would try to entice him by saying something like, "If you like, we can play with this today, but you need to clean up the toys first since you didn't help last time." I offered to help him and tried to make it a fun game (he loves to "race" to see who can pick up all the toys first), but he said I could pick up most of the toys and he would only pick up one. He was trying to still be resistant to the idea and not comply with the request. I said that we could each do half and he refused to share the task with me.

About 15-20 minutes in, he went over and dumped out the rest of the toys from the basket (probably 40 small toys or so) onto the floor, then looked at the therapist like "So, what are you going to do about that? Huh?" She said that he needed to pick up those toys, and then he picked up some and threw them at us, and then it was all downhill from there. He started kicking this big (expensive) Playmobil castle she has on the floor, and we both gently but firmly grabbed onto him to move him away from the castle, and he started hitting, biting, scratching, etc.

The therapist immediately moved him into a restraint hold, sitting behind him with her legs over his legs and crossed his arms across his chest, holding him at the wrists. This is something she taught me to do with him, but I have really tried to avoid it in recent months because it seemed like whenever I did that, it only escalated things. I tried it for at least a year, and I never found it to be successful. I only use it when he is really trying to hurt me or others or breaking stuff and won't calm down. Then I use it only briefly until I know he won't try to hurt me.

As she put him into the restraint hold, he was saying "Ow! Ow! You're hurting me!" and crying, and she said, "I am holding your wrists tightly, but I am not hurting you." He's said this with me and I could never tell if he was really being hurt or if it just wasn't comfortable or what. But I never liked having my child say I was hurting him and tell him that he's fine or just ignore it. I did notice that she tried to adjust her grip on him, but then he started trying to bite, spit on her, and hit her on the chest with the back of his head, so she tightened her grip.

At this point, I wasn't entirely comfortable with what was going on, especially when he started saying, "Mommy, help me! Please! She is hurting me!" I said, "As soon as you calm down, she will let you go." But, as I've noticed with him, he really was unable to calm down.

I was really torn between not wanting to undermine her authority and not back her up and whether this was ok or not. At that time, I felt very uncomfortable, but I thought it was maybe the right approach. She was very calm with him and kept saying, "As soon as you calm down, I will let you go, but then you need to go clean up the toys."

My son was really distraught and kept saying "You're hurting me. I am sorry. I want to apologize! Let me go! Mommy, please help me. Mommy, I want a hug!"

Then it was "I need to go to the BATHROOM!" and his therapist said, "You can go to the bathroom when you're done with your time out." I was thinking "This is NOT a good idea. He has been at school all day and he probably really needs to go to the bathroom." He said, "I am going to pee my pants!" and his therapist said, "Well, that's ok." I was really worried and upset, but I didn't want to undermine her authority or seem like a pushover (dumb, I know), but I was thinking I should just take him to go pee, then come back and do the time out, if that's what we needed to do. As I was trying to figure out how to figure this all out and having this argument back and forth in my brain, he said with the SADDEST look on his face, "I just peed my pants!" and sobbed and sobbed.







My poor baby.

At this point I thought, this is really not good. This is NOT ok!!!! I know she thinks that this is a manipulative technique, and my son has tried that in the past where he says he has to go to the bathroom in order to get out of time out, but I think that refusing to allow a child to use the bathroom and MAKING HIM PEE HIS PANTS IS NOT OK.

The time out continued on and on and lasted at least 45 minutes, if not an hour. It was all a big, ugly blur. I felt like it was so awful. She kept saying, "As soon as you're calm, I will let you go. Then you can clean up the toys, then mommy will give you a hug." He kept asking over and over for me to hug him and help him calm down. He was begging, pleading, and sobbing. I thought if I didn't follow her instructions (I was sitting right there, but she asked me not to talk to him) that she would say, "See, this is why he is behaving the way he is: because you give into him." I feel like he needed to mind and do what he was told, and it was not ok for him to hit, but that this was WAY over the top.

This went on so long that she went 15 minutes into her next appointment, and she finally gave up and said that the next time he came back (next week), he would have to begin in time out and would sit in time out until he picked up the toys. I do not agree with this, and this is not going to happen, as far as I am concerned.

We walked out to the car and he sobbed and sobbed. He was completely humiliated that he had peed his pants and didn't want anyone to see. Of course I didn't have a change of clothes, and we live 45 minutes away. I was angry at him and at his therapist (at him for putting us in this situation and at her for making him pee his pants, primarily), and I was angry at myself for not stopping it, and I was DEVASTATED at what had happened. I put him in the car seat, got ready to leave, but then was so overcome with emotion that I told him "Just a minute" and stepped outside the car to call my mom. I was just completely overwhelmed, sobbing. Of course she completely freaked out and said he had been "brutalized" and abused. She said, "How could you let her do that to him when he's been abused before?" Of course I already felt awful, which was why I called her. I feel like complete s**t. I am completely confused.

So I talked to her for maybe five minutes, maybe less, and when I got back in the car, my son was asleep, completely passed out, but still crying. Honestly, it freaked me out. I called my mom back and talked to her as I drove home. When I got home, I tried to wake him up, and as soon as he started to wake up, his entire body was shaking and he was just immediately sobbing and hysterical.

WHAT THE F DID I DO TO MY SON????? WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME THAT I ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN? I REALLY FEEL LIKE HE WAS JUST COMPLETELY TRAUMATIZED. He has been abused twice in the past. Why did I let this happen???????

I took him upstairs, changed his clothes, and crawled into bed with him to snuggle, and he fell asleep for the night. He has been asleep since 4:00pm and it's now 8:00pm.

He was supposed to go to his end of the soccer season party tonight, so he totally missed that. I feel SOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad I can't even explain it.

I FEEL LIKE I FAILED HIM.

Where do I go from here? Is this the last time I take him to see her? Up until this point, nothing like this has ever happened, and she has sometimes been my only support and only voice of reason----the only person who told me I was doing a good job, helped me calm down during emergencies, etc. I have Kaiser insurance, so it's really hard to change providers, and they have very few people who work with kids. I wish I could just keep seeing her without him, which I have done some, but his insurance wouldn't allow that if he never saw her.

I feel like their therapeutic relationship is totally destroyed, and I know she thought she was doing the right thing.

PLEASE: thoughts, advice?


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## Oubliette8

I'm so sorry! That sounds really awful.

Just from your post, I think its time to find a new therapist. She provoked him into misbehaving and then restrained him until he wet his pants and then STILL held onto him for another 30+ minutes. I just don't see how that's ok. The cleaning up issue should have been addressed at the time that it originally happened, throwing toys on the floor and demanding he pick them up is obnoxious. And then she pretends that he can sit there and not play all session (which would be a valid choice) but when he makes that choice, goads him about picking up the toys more? As an adult, I'd be pretty po'd if someone treated me like that. The poor kid. And I feel for you too, I would have also felt unsure in that situation, I don't blame you for not stopping it, hindsight is always 20/20.

Can you try looking at other therapists on your insurance? Its always hard to stop therapy with someone you feel has been helpful, but sometimes you find the next one is equally good (if not more so). You might also find out about going out of network, or look into free/low cost counseling if you qualify. Good luck. I hope you and your son feel better!


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## marinak1977

I'm so sorry for what you and your son had to endure. I'd say your therapist broke her relationship with your son and your trust in her, and you're better off finding a different therapist. What she did was NOT OK at all, she abused her power. I know it's not going to be easy to find a good therapist again, but I really doubt you can salvage your relationship with her.








Sending you and your son good thoughts.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

I may not be one to talk here, something jumped out at me from your post.

You said you didnt want to undermine the THEREPISTS authority. But to your son, YOU are the authority. You trump everyone in his eyes. So it might have been really confusing for him to be asking for your help, while you are right there, and he wasn't getting it. (Im trying to be as gentle as I can here because I cant immagine the trauma you yourself are weeding through right now)

IMO (which doesnt mean squat) you need to rebuild trust with your son again by NEVER taking him to tha ttherepist again. She humilated him. She tramatized him. I honestly think you should tell him that what she did to him was WRONG, and that your sorry she did that to you. And that she will NEVER be able to do that to her again.

Then I would write the therepist telling her the fit is no longer working with her, and you will no longer be requiring her services. And find another therepist.

I forget, did you ever say whether or not you had your sons lead levels tested?

OMG, I feel so bad mama. I cant immagine enduring any of that. Im so sorry. I dont know what else to say. It just doesnt seem fair that a good, hardworking mother and sweet little boy should have to endure such trauma their entire lives. Sending you a million virtual hugs.


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## Xerxella

What did the therapist say about all this? Does she just think he's being defiant and she's trying to teach him a lesson/punish him?

You can call her and ask to talk to her about the whole incident. What exactly is she trying to accomplish? I thought holding therapy was to stop kids from being violent and/or destructive. How would that be accomplished by waiting a week and putting him back in the hold?

These are just some questions you could ask her.

I'll keep you in my prayers.


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## EdnaMarie

You know... I'm going to come at this from a different side.

I have read this thread several times.

Here is a pattern I see, while recognizing the trauma your son has experienced:

-He pushes buttons to see how far he can go.
-When he gets a reaction, he pulls out all the stops and freaks out as much as he physically can.
-As he gets more verbal, he's pulling out the verbal stops as well.
-As you are traumatized by his past issues, you immediately lose confidence when he starts to freak out, because you think it is your fault.
-The lesson learned is, "If I freak out, I can really affect mom."

What your therapist may have been doing was to tell him that he gets the consequence *no matter what he tries to do*.

He had lots of opportunities to say he had to pee, did he not? Up until that point? Certainly being upset would make him have to pee more.

However... I do think that at some point your son needs to hit a wall. To get to that limit. That THIS IS IT YOU DON'T DO THAT TO PEOPLE EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO PEE.

And your therapist was probably trying to let him know that with her, there was a limit, no exceptions.

I don't see what she did as a punishment. She just stated a limit, enforced it, and held her ground, no emotional blackmail or any other blackmail or physical threats allowed.

If you don't like that his judgment will sometimes get him into that situation, perhaps suggest another way of restraining him, like putting him in a safe, light, connected but closed room with a small potty, like a time-out room.

Yes, he said he had to pee, but he was also saying pretty much everything he could to get her to stop enforcing her personal limits. The boy who cried wolf, so to speak.

It seems to me you feel sorry for your son and he senses this and uses it to manipulate your limits. Until you start looking at him as a survivor, someone that can and will get over the past, a strong person that is resilient and ABLE TO ACCEPT UNPLEASANT CONSEQUENCES, he is not going to grow to be a person that can deal with limits.

And that is not a healthy place to be.

Sorry, I'm the dissenting opinion but I come back to this thread again and again and it is frightening how many excuses are made for this child when he crosses limits. His behavior was awful, he got a time-out, he peed himself in time-out because she didn't believe him because he had already abused the power of speech (taking advantage of loosening grip to hurt her).

That is NOT abuse, that is NOT trauma. It happens to all kinds of toddlers. Now, my kids always have a potty available in time-out for that very reason but when DD was very little she would sometimes pee herself during a tantrum, even though the potty was available. SHe'd be all, "I have to PEE! You're not letting me PEE!" And we would say, "GO, then!" But she didn't.









You don't know that he had an accident. He could have chosen to pee himself to get sympathy and GET OUT OF TIME-OUT.

Now, we don't know the other way 'round, either.

But to me this sounds like a child that knows just how to get his mama to stop him from hitting that limit, and he's got it again. Again, mama feels guilty, mama feels sorry, mama is at fault, "she'll never do this to me again..." etc.

OP, again, I am sorry for all that's happened to you, but he needs limits. I think you should have a session with the therapist yourself and ask her why she did that.

Quote:

He kept asking over and over for me to hug him and help him calm down. He was begging, pleading, and sobbing. I thought if I didn't follow her instructions (I was sitting right there, but she asked me not to talk to him) that she would say, "See, this is why he is behaving the way he is: because you give into him." I feel like he needed to mind and do what he was told, and it was not ok for him to hit, but that this was WAY over the top.
I agree.

*He* was over the top. He hit, he did not calm down, he did not listen, and he wanted your sympathy. "Rescue me."

What you are teaching him is, "No matter how you treat others, I'll rescue you if you freak out badly enough, if you blackmail them."

"Let me go or I'll pee on you."

Is that a valid threat to make? Because that is essentially what he threatened. He's not stupid--he knows that would not go over well. He used words that usually get your immediate compliance (even if he normally uses them when appropriate).

Bisou, you sound really sweet. But at some point you need to step back and look at what is going on with your son.

Every time he starts to hit a limit, he freaks out.

At some point, he will be asked to take responsibility for that.

I'm not sure if I'd have done EXACTLY what the therapist did (I would likely have led him to the bathroom with both wrists, and if he did not pee in a compliant way, would have restrained him immediately again, at risk to my own safety, by the way!!!) but I don't think it is abuse to set a limit.

Even if someone says they're going to pee on you.


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## earthmama369

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
You know... I'm going to come at this from a different side.

I have read this thread several times.

Here is a pattern I see, while recognizing the trauma your son has experienced:

-He pushes buttons to see how far he can go.
-When he gets a reaction, he pulls out all the stops and freaks out as much as he physically can.
-As he gets more verbal, he's pulling out the verbal stops as well.
-As you are traumatized by his past issues, you immediately lose confidence when he starts to freak out, because you think it is your fault.
-The lesson learned is, "If I freak out, I can really affect mom."

What your therapist may have been doing was to tell him that he gets the consequence *no matter what he tries to do*.

He had lots of opportunities to say he had to pee, did he not? Up until that point? Certainly being upset would make him have to pee more.

However... I do think that at some point your son needs to hit a wall. To get to that limit. That THIS IS IT YOU DON'T DO THAT TO PEOPLE EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO PEE.

And your therapist was probably trying to let him know that with her, there was a limit, no exceptions.

I don't see what she did as a punishment. She just stated a limit, enforced it, and held her ground, no emotional blackmail or any other blackmail or physical threats allowed.

This struck me, too, in rereading the whole thread. We actually had something very similar happen with our son (age 4) a couple weeks ago. He has sensory processing disorder and some impulse issues. Plus, well, he's 4. He dumped a container of food scraps in the middle of the yard instead of putting it in the compost bin and refused to pick it up. DH calmly told him that he needed to clean up the mess he had deliberately made. He continued to refuse and pushed the boundaries the way a 4-year-old will, with that extra oomph that a child with SPD can have. It ended with ds tantruming and dh holding him in a safe restraint to keep him from hurting himself or dh, and with ds screaming and crying and coming up with every possible promise and excuse and reason to get dh to let him go and to get out of cleaning up the mess. I got really upset partway through and told dh that I thought he was pushing it too far -- the mama bear totally came out. But dh, though also upset that things had gotten that far, felt strongly that ds was coming up with excuses to get out of a responsibility, and that he wasn't as out-of-control as he was presenting if he was able to reason and come up with all these excuses.

After about an hour, ds tired out and calmed down enough to have a heart-to-heart with dh. They cleaned up the compost together and dh and I agreed that we'd gotten a little lax on the consistency with following through with consequences for ds's behavior. We're both tempted to cut him slack because he does have sensory issues, but really, he functions and feels so much better when he has structure and knows what to expect.

It's only been two weeks, but we've concentrated on giving ds more structure and clear expectations, and following through on natural/logical consequences when he decides to push buttons, and things have gone much more smoothly. He hasn't tantrumed once since then, and while of course he still has his days and still pushes buttons at times, the duration is much shorter and he seems to be a lot happier overall. I'm sure we'll still have our not-so-great moments, but in looking back, I see a real difference between a tantrum to get out of doing something (with the ability, even while screaming, to bargain and give excuses) and a true sensory overload meltdown, which for ds is a nonverbal, truly out-of-control type tantrum. I forgot that for a while.

Is it possible something like that is going on? That your ds is truly upset at being asked to do something, and because he's a smart kiddo, he's reacting and trying out behaviors that might get him out of a consequence for his actions? But that maybe he's not really having an out-of-control meltdown in those moments? That wouldn't in any way make him a bad kid. It's really normal for kids around this age to try out different behaviors as a part of their social development, and some kids just give it a little (or a lot) of extra intensity. It can be exhausting to steer a kid through this period and I have a lot of







for you.


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## EdnaMarie

I also want to say it's not cut and dry, meltdown vs. some calculated behaviors. Clearly her son is somewhat out of control. He is also capable of thinking some things through and making choices, though.


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## Heavenly

I haven't read all of the pages but I just wanted to respond. It sounds to me like your son has bipolar disorder. Everything you are describing sounds like it. Bipolar disorder causes sensory issues too, bipolar disorder causes anxiety issues too, bipolar disorder causes OCD issues too. All of the symptoms you are describing can be wrapped up in one disorder. Everything you have described sounds like my son. I hope you will get a proper diagnosis and FINALLY start medicating him before he gets to the point that my son did - self-harming and suicidal at the age of 6.5. There is no shame in a diagnosis and there is no shame in medication. I stopped reading around page 8 but I was very saddened by your continued resistance to medication. Please get the book Intense Minds and you will see how it feels to be the child INSIDE of these emotions. He only gets one childhood and it is being ruined by his inability to handle life. Every rage, every episode causes permanent damage in the brain. I am not a doctor so I can't diagnose someone (and would never attempt to do so over the internet) but it really truly sounds like bipolar disorder to me. I hope you get him the help he needs.

(my son is now almost 10 and doing wonderfully on a combination of meds. I have my wonderful little boy back and I will be forever grateful for the medication that allowed that to happen)


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## wytchywoman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
The last few times my son has not participated even though he was told he had to, but he has refused.

This went on so long that she went 15 minutes into her next appointment, and she finally gave up and said that the next time he came back (next week), he would have to begin in time out and would sit in time out until he picked up the toys. I do not agree with this, and this is not going to happen, as far as I am concerned.

I feel like their therapeutic relationship is totally destroyed, and I know she thought she was doing the right thing.

PLEASE: thoughts, advice?

Wow. I am stunned by what took place. I understand why your therapist was tempted to do what she did, but I think it was unprofessional and unnecessary.
So let me explain, does your son manipulate situations and get what he wants when he freaks out? Of course! _*Every*_ child does that! His reactions are pretty over the top, but he's not doing anything more than any other child his age does, he just does it louder and longer.
As far as the therapist imposing limits and consequences, this is where I disagree with what she did. It is her job to help your son work through his issues and past traumas. I do NOT think it is her job to model what she believes is the correct way to consequence for a behavior. I think a natural consequence at the PAST appointment would have been for her to take the toys that your son refused to pick up and place them in a box, and make a big show of how these toys won't be available at the next appointment because he was refusing to pick them up. That to me is a natural consequence for not putting something back in it's place....it gets lost.
I absolutely, totally, completely disagree with him starting off the appointment next week in time out. That's utter crap and completely not ok. Any therapist can tell you that a consequence needs to fit the behavior and needs to be delivered immediately after the behavior occurs. Your son will not benefit in any from receiving a consequence a week after he engaged in the behavior.This is where I have the biggest issue with what the therapist did. She was not being therapeutic, nor was she even being educational or utilizing a teaching moment at that time. She is now engaged in a battle of the wills with your son and is hell bent on showing all parties involved that she is the winner. This is not going to help you or your son and will not teach him anything about his behavior other than that bigger people can exert enough physical control over smaller people to get their way.
As for their relationship, I think the best thing now is for you to have a discussion with her about your expectations of therapy. That you expect for the therapy process to be therapeutic, not traumatizing, and I think you need to define for her what you think her job in all of this is. ie....not putting him in time out for an hour, etc...You really need to resolve this issue with her prior to bringing your son back into that environment, and if it can't be resolved to your liking then you need to find another therapist. ((((((((((((HUGE HUGS))))))))))))) to both you and your son.


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## Lilygoose

Is it possible the therapist was trying to create a situation that sent your son spiralling because she feels that you are not consistent enough and she wanted to demonstrate? Which would be horrible. While it would be awful for me to watch someone else hold my child despite their cries and protests, I can see why she might so this and how it could possibly be valuable. Setting limits and sticking to them are really important, especially with children living with special needs. I have worked with special needs kids and many of them do better with more rigid forms of consistency. Also some physical intervention techniques can be supportive in that they provide limits for the individual when the individual cannot for himself. It's scary to feel so out of control and having another step in and control the situation (there are other ways to do this than physically as well) can be reassuring and calming. Some people feel more comfortable and soothed by this. Not all however, it can easily go the opposite way and feel threatening. A big part of what determines this is the individual and the relationship they have with the person performing the physical intervention. However I do not like how she created and manipulated the situation with the toys. The only way that it makes sense to me is as a way to instigate a situation. Leaving toys out and telling him to pick them up doesn't really correlate with picking up after yourself. I would call this person and ask what her motivations were and if you are not comfortable with the answers I would find a new therapist. I do think your son, like most children, does try to manipulate the situation and plays upon your emotions. You both have been through so much. Perhaps trying to find ways to limit this would help you both.


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## Bisou

Wow. You have all given me so much feedback I don't know where to begin. You all sound like the conflicting voices in my head, and I am going back and forth about what I think I should do.

Last night around 8pm I called my son's therapist because I wanted to talk about what happened and express that I was upset, especially about not letting him go to the bathroom.

My son's therapist called back tonight and we just talked for an hour. I told her how I felt about everything, how I felt that making him pee his pants was humiliating and wrong, and that it was very upsetting for me because I wanted to say, "I need to take my son to the bathroom," but I didn't want to contradict her, just as you don't want to contradict your spouse in front of your child when your spouse is doing the disciplining.

She said that she had been thinking about what happened with my son for hours since yesterday, going over everything in her mind and trying to figure out what she should have done differently.

She said that she felt really bad that he wet his pants and that she originally thought he was just being manipulative and trying to get out of the restraint hold and didn't really have to go to the bathroom. She said when he did pee his pants that he completely soaked her, and she realized at that moment that with that amount of urine, it was clear that he REALLY needed to go. She said she would apologize to him the next time we come and that she would say that if that happened again, she would immediately allow him to go to the bathroom.

I told her that I was not ok with coming back and starting in a time out and/or restraint hold again, which was what she had said would happen the next time we came back, and she said she had re-thought that as well, and that she would want to start with having him pick up the toys again, but that she would allow him to ask for help. She said that not picking up the toys is also an option, as long as he doesn't get aggressive towards us or try to break things, but that he won't be able to play unless he picks up the toys.

I told her that I thought it might be good for him to have a break. Surprisingly, he didn't say he never wanted to go back, but he said he wanted to take a break until after Christmas. However, she said that she thinks we should work through this right away and that it would be good to be able to talk, have her apologize, and see if they can work through it so he can realize that this is how people handle things in a healthy way: by talking, admitting their mistakes, and working through it.

She said that during the session yesterday, what she saw was extreme fear that had channeled into rage. She felt his fear came out of the two abuse situations in his daycare, the break-in attempt we experienced last year, and me sometimes losing my temper with him. She said she felt he was so full of rage because he didn't know how to handle his fear and that he was angry about his feelings. I could see that. I guess it all goes to him feeling out of control.

I did say that if we came back and this happened again where he was trying to hurt us and damage property, what if I did the hold, which might be less scary for him. She said that would be ok with her. She has known my son for about 2 1/2 years, so there is a relationship established there and it's not like she's a stranger, but maybe it would be less scary coming from me.

I HATE doing restraint holds though, and I haven't done one with him for a long time. I have been able to get him to have time outs in his room, which have been working pretty well. He calms down and eventually is in there reading or playing with toys, and then he will come out and we talk about what happened. With a few snags here and there, overall he has been doing much better.

I am really torn about what to do with his therapist. I really agree with a lot of what everyone has said, even though some of you have conflicting views. That's how it is in my mind. I don't want to see him traumatized, yet I also know that he needs to learn to follow rules. I vacillate between the tough, harsh, I-am-the-adult-and-you-are-the-child "YOU WILL MIND ME!" mindset (which was the way I was raised, except add spanking, which is something I don't agree with!), thinking that I have to help him understand and follow the rules of society or he will be in big trouble now and in his future------and the kind, gentle, understanding, attachment parenting mom I wanted to be. This is how I started out with him: very kind, gentle, no yelling, no time outs, just gentle talking and explanation, but it didn't work with this child. Things just kept getting worse and worse, and I realized that he needed something else.

One of you mentioned that it was odd that his therapist began with asking him to clean up toys and wondered why that hadn't been handled earlier. His therapist has tried to deal with it in the session where it was a problem, but with no luck. In the last few sessions, he has been having a lot of trouble with cleaning up, even refusing to clean up altogether, and cleaning up at the end of playtime is one of her rules. I think she is thinking that if he continues to refuse to clean up, it will just become a pattern, and she didn't want this to happen every week. She was trying to have some consequences so he couldn't just get out of cleaning up toys because the session was over.

It does seem a little strange to start with him having to clean up toys when an entire week has passed, but I can also see how she might worry that if he refuses to pick up toys every week (and we don't have time to work it through because she has another session), then it's going to become a huge problem and he isn't learning to follow rules. I am torn about it, but I see where she is coming from.

With the "giving him the option of not cleaning up the toys and then goading him into cleaning up the toys," it seemed more like encouragement, like "Hey, if you clean up those toys, then we can play this really fun game!" I think he was really mad that he had to start with something that wasn't fun, but she did make it pretty easy to accomplish by giving him only 4-5 small toys to pick up. He then turned it into a difficult task by dumping out the entire basket.

I am glad that she was able to admit the mistakes she made. I am glad that she is willing to apologize to my son. I think she is thoughtful and I have always appreciated her willingness to modify things when something she suggests does not work for me or my son.

BUT I worry about what is REALLY the right choice for my son. Should I take him back and see if we can work through this? She felt like he was showing her in a very powerful way that he is terrified and angry, and she thinks it's good that he let that out.

Of course the skeptic in me thinks, "Yeah, he was terrified and angry about what was happening to him in the session!"

I have told him that I would not allow him to be forced to wet his pants again, and that if he needed to go to the bathroom, I would take him to the bathroom. He had just come from school and often doesn't go potty much at school, so I knew when he said that he REALLY had to go. It was not manipulation, and even his therapist agreed with that once she saw (and FELT!) how bad he had to go.

I don't know how I would have felt about the session had he been allowed to go to the bathroom, or if that hadn't come up at all, and he had just been restrained. I think the refusal to allow him a potty break was what upset me the most. Even serial killers and rapists being interrogated are allowed to go to the bathroom! Actually, I just looked that up, and refusing to allow someone to use the bathroom is considered cruel and unusual punishment, while the death penalty is not! Chew on that one for a minute!

So, given the therapist's response to what happened and her introspection, is it a bad idea to take him back to try to work things through? I am really torn. My mom (whose comments I take with an entire salt shaker's worth of salt, not just a grain) said that I should allow him to decide what he wants to do, and that if I take him back, he won't trust that I will protect him. His therapist said that if I allow him to decide about whether he comes back or not, that would "terrify" him because not having me be in control and letting him have control is terrifying. I don't really completely buy either of those arguments. I don't really know what to think!

Thoughts?


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## Bisou

Hi Lilygoose:

I agree that kids, especially kids with emotional/behavioral issues, need consistent limits. This is something I have REALLY tried hard to provide for my son, but it's difficult to do at times.

I am not sure that my son's therapist was trying to intentionally send him spiraling out of control, but I think she WAS trying to say that "You ARE going to pick up these toys, and we will keep coming back to this until you comply with the rules."

It probably does seem a little weird to him because he didn't put those particular toys on the floor at that moment, and he knows she did it, so it probably seems unfair to him that he has to clean up toys that he didn't put there in the first place.

I see why she is doing it because otherwise he can just refuse to pick up the toys every time with no consequences. I am not sure how else she could enforce those consequences because in the past few sessions, he refused to clean up the toys, but then the session is over, so there were no consequences for that. She was trying to start the session again with the consequences the next time, but it definitely starts things off on the wrong foot.

Any suggestions on how to give him some logical and fair consequences for refusing to pick up the toys?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lilygoose* 
Is it possible the therapist was trying to create a situation that sent your son spiralling because she feels that you are not consistent enough and she wanted to demonstrate? Which would be horrible. While it would be awful for me to watch someone else hold my child despite their cries and protests, I can see why she might so this and how it could possibly be valuable. Setting limits and sticking to them are really important, especially with children living with special needs. I have worked with special needs kids and many of them do better with more rigid forms of consistency. Also some physical intervention techniques can be supportive in that they provide limits for the individual when the individual cannot for himself. It's scary to feel so out of control and having another step in and control the situation (there are other ways to do this than physically as well) can be reassuring and calming. Some people feel more comfortable and soothed by this. Not all however, it can easily go the opposite way and feel threatening. A big part of what determines this is the individual and the relationship they have with the person performing the physical intervention. However I do not like how she created and manipulated the situation with the toys. The only way that it makes sense to me is as a way to instigate a situation. Leaving toys out and telling him to pick them up doesn't really correlate with picking up after yourself. I would call this person and ask what her motivations were and if you are not comfortable with the answers I would find a new therapist. I do think your son, like most children, does try to manipulate the situation and plays upon your emotions. You both have been through so much. Perhaps trying to find ways to limit this would help you both.


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## Bisou

Hi Petie:

I wanted to respond to your last post because I really liked a lot of what you had to say. Your comment about pretending the child is someone else's was something I've thought about a lot over the past few days. If it was my friend's child, I wouldn't THINK of yelling at him, so why would I yell at my own child? I will try this and see if it works!

I am so sorry to hear the extreme situation you've faced with your daughter. Mine is really rough at times, but it must be devastating to have her kill a kitten and attack you and your family members with such intense aggression. So scary. It's so hard to have a child with such challenges because if it was ANYONE else---a spouse, boyfriend, friend, or even another relative---most people would just walk away from the situation. But when it's your child, you cannot walk away. That's not an option, or at least it isn't for me, and it sounds like that's the same for you. I admire you for fighting to keep her out of an institution. I think most of them are pretty awful places. I had a friend with schizophrenia (who ultimately killed herself because of it) and I visited her in a few psychiatric institutions, and they were very awful places---hell on earth, as far as I am concerned. I know sometimes there are really no other options for people. I have a friend of a friend whose young teenage son tried to murder him and almost succeeded, and obviously he had to be institutionalized. Very very sad.

If you don't mind, what was your daughter diagnosed with? Did you medicate her?

Thanks for being so supportive when you have such a tough situation yourself. Thanks for sharing. Sometimes I feel like I am the ONLY one. I am surrounded by people who have children who seem to be complete angels and follow nearly every request made by their parents with gentle and quick compliance. And then there's my son!

I do have to say that he's getting much better overall. I still remain hopeful that he wil continue to improve. I appreciate hearing your stories because it reminds me that I am not alone.

I do have to wonder, however, what is wrong with so many of our children. What is causing this? Have children always had such difficulties? Or is there something going on in our world (environmentally, socially?) that is creating so many children with so many emotional and behavioral problems?


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## Bisou

EdnaMarie said:


> Quote:
> 
> You know... I'm going to come at this from a different side.
> 
> I have read this thread several times.
> 
> Here is a pattern I see, while recognizing the trauma your son has experienced:
> 
> -He pushes buttons to see how far he can go.
> -When he gets a reaction, he pulls out all the stops and freaks out as much as he physically can.
> -As he gets more verbal, he's pulling out the verbal stops as well.
> -As you are traumatized by his past issues, you immediately lose confidence when he starts to freak out, because you think it is your fault.
> -The lesson learned is, "If I freak out, I can really affect mom."
> 
> What your therapist may have been doing was to tell him that he gets the consequence *no matter what he tries to do*.
> I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, and I do believe he needs consequences, but I think that not allowing him to go to the bathroom was too much. It's actually considered cruel and unusual punishment to prevent a prisoner from going to the bathroom when he/she has to go, and this is a five year old!
> 
> Quote:
> 
> He had lots of opportunities to say he had to pee, did he not? Up until that point? Certainly being upset would make him have to pee more.
> No, he didn't really have an opportunity to pee. This all happened within 5-10 minutes of us arriving, and he had just come from school, after being there for six hours. He often does not go to the bathroom at school, so when he said he had to go, I knew he REALLY needed to go. Both my son and his therapist were completely soaked.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> However... I do think that at some point your son needs to hit a wall. To get to that limit. That THIS IS IT YOU DON'T DO THAT TO PEOPLE EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO PEE.
> I am not sure if I totally understand your comment there, as his behavior didn't have anything to do with needing to pee. He tried to hit at us and throw things before the time out happened, then said he needed to pee after being in the time out for 10 minutes or more.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Sorry, I'm the dissenting opinion but I come back to this thread again and again and it is frightening how many excuses are made for this child when he crosses limits. His behavior was awful, he got a time-out, he peed himself in time-out because she didn't believe him because he had already abused the power of speech (taking advantage of loosening grip to hurt her).
> 
> That is NOT abuse, that is NOT trauma. It happens to all kinds of toddlers.
> I am a little confused here again, since my son isn't a toddler, but a five-year-old. Also, again, refusing someone food, water, sleep, or bathroom privileges is actually considered torture by most people, and that's when we're talking about adults. If I imagine how I would feel if I had a really bad fight with someone and he/she held me down until I peed my pants, I just can't imagine how humiliated and angry I would be. Also, I don't think it helped him calm down, because then he was even more angry, humiliated, and sad.
> 
> On top of that, we then had to make a 45-minute car ride in his soaked clothes because I didn't have anything else for him to wear, so in the end, he was in pee-soaked clothes for nearly two hours (including the therapy session and the drive home). I don't think those are fair consequences.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You don't know that he had an accident. He could have chosen to pee himself to get sympathy and GET OUT OF TIME-OUT.
> There have been times when I have been unsure about this or that with my son, but I am 150% sure that this was an accident. I know by his facial expressions, his body language, and the fact that it seemed like about a gallon of pee, not just a little spot. He was soaked from his crotch all the way down to his knees and up his back.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Now, we don't know the other way 'round, either.
> 
> But to me this sounds like a child that knows just how to get his mama to stop him from hitting that limit, and he's got it again. Again, mama feels guilty, mama feels sorry, mama is at fault, "she'll never do this to me again..." etc.
> 
> OP, again, I am sorry for all that's happened to you, but he needs limits. I think you should have a session with the therapist yourself and ask her why she did that.
> His therapist does feel like it was a mistake to not let him go to the bathroom and she plans to apologize to him for that.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> *He* was over the top. He hit, he did not calm down, he did not listen, and he wanted your sympathy. "Rescue me."
> 
> What you are teaching him is, "No matter how you treat others, I'll rescue you if you freak out badly enough, if you blackmail them."
> 
> "Let me go or I'll pee on you."
> He didn't threaten that. He said, "I NEED TO GO TO THE BATHROOM!" He asked repeatedly to go potty, but he wasn't allowed. He didn't ever say "I will pee on you if you don't let me go." He did say, "I am going to pee my pants!" but it was said after he made repeated requests and in a voice of complete desperation, like "PLEASE LET ME GO TO THE BATHROOM OR I AM GOING TO HAVE AN ACCIDENT!!!!"
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Is that a valid threat to make? Because that is essentially what he threatened. He's not stupid--he knows that would not go over well. He used words that usually get your immediate compliance (even if he normally uses them when appropriate).
> 
> Bisou, you sound really sweet. But at some point you need to step back and look at what is going on with your son.
> 
> Every time he starts to hit a limit, he freaks out.
> 
> At some point, he will be asked to take responsibility for that.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'd have done EXACTLY what the therapist did (I would likely have led him to the bathroom with both wrists, and if he did not pee in a compliant way, would have restrained him immediately again, at risk to my own safety, by the way!!!) but I don't think it is abuse to set a limit.
> 
> Even if someone says they're going to pee on you.
> I agree with you that it's not abuse to set a limit, and I have set limits with him again and again, but I just think in this situation, especially with the refusal to let him use the bathroom, that it was just way too much. He was just shaking and shaking after this. He was completely pale and just sick looking. It was not a defiant attitude, and it was not how he normally acted even after having time outs or restraint holds with me in the past, when he would seem under control and calm once it was over. This was something completely different and something I have never seen in him before. It was really frightening.
> 
> I know my son needs limits and consistency, but I also want him to have love and kindness and understanding. He's been through so much and has had so many terrifying times where people would not listen to him and where people hurt him very seriously. I think a lot of his acting out is because of that, and while I will not allow him to hurt me, himself, or others, or to damage property, there is a limit to how I must approach that. I have to let him know that with limits also come love, safety, and kindness, and this just felt abusive.


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## Bisou

wytchywoman said:


> Quote:
> 
> I do NOT think it is her job to model what she believes is the correct way to consequence for a behavior. I think a natural consequence at the PAST appointment would have been for her to take the toys that your son refused to pick up and place them in a box, and make a big show of how these toys won't be available at the next appointment because he was refusing to pick them up. That to me is a natural consequence for not putting something back in it's place....it gets lost.
> Hi Wytchy~
> This is a good suggestion. I will see what the therapist thinks of it. It has seemed pretty messed up to me to start a brand new appointment already in a "fight," because that's kind of what it seems like to me. He walks in thinking he will play and then it's right in his face that we are already in a conflict before he's even arrived.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> I absolutely, totally, completely disagree with him starting off the appointment next week in time out. That's utter crap and completely not ok. Any therapist can tell you that a consequence needs to fit the behavior and needs to be delivered immediately after the behavior occurs. Your son will not benefit in any from receiving a consequence a week after he engaged in the behavior.This is where I have the biggest issue with what the therapist did. She was not being therapeutic, nor was she even being educational or utilizing a teaching moment at that time. She is now engaged in a battle of the wills with your son and is hell bent on showing all parties involved that she is the winner. This is not going to help you or your son and will not teach him anything about his behavior other than that bigger people can exert enough physical control over smaller people to get their way.
> I TOTALLY agree with you and told his therapist the same thing. I also completely agree that this has turned into a huge battle of wills.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> As for their relationship, I think the best thing now is for you to have a discussion with her about your expectations of therapy. That you expect for the therapy process to be therapeutic, not traumatizing, and I think you need to define for her what you think her job in all of this is. ie....not putting him in time out for an hour, etc...You really need to resolve this issue with her prior to bringing your son back into that environment, and if it can't be resolved to your liking then you need to find another therapist. ((((((((((((HUGE HUGS))))))))))))) to both you and your son.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great suggestion! Thanks so much for your thoughts.


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## Bisou

Hi Heavenly:

So far no one has suggested he has BPD, and I have asked several different people, several times. They have all said they think his behavior is the combination of his personality with the many serious traumas he's had in his short life. If he was diagnosed with BPD, I would certainly consider medication and would probably medicate, but I don't want to start throwing meds at him when nothing has been diagnosed. I have been on medication for depression and have seen other friends on medication for other psychiatric conditions, and what they've had to go through (and what I went through) in terms of side effects was really horrific. I definitely don't judge other people for making that decision for their children because I am sure for some kids, that's the best decision or is at least worth trying.

I also know that there is research showing that some medications, like anti-depressants, are only minimally helpful, or are even about as effective as a placebo. Personally, I've had MUCH better results with acupuncture for depression and anxiety than I ever had with medication. Medication sometimes made me more depressed and anxious and had other awful side effects as well. Acupuncture has completely eliminated my anxiety and greatly reduced my depression to the point that I would not say I am depressed on a daily basis. Some days are down days, but it's not my general state of being.

I don't think that could necessarily help with something like BPD, but I don't think medication is the answer in many cases, though it probably is in some where a person has a clearly defined mental illness.

I have read up on BPD, and while he has some of the symptoms (which are also part of SPD), he doesn't have many of the hallmark symptoms, like cycling from manic to depressed. I know this is different in kids, and he has never matched the symptoms that kids have either.

If he does end up being diagnosed with that, I will explore medication then. For now, I have discussed this with his psychologist, his occupational therapist, a behavioral pediatrician, and his doctor, and no one thinks he has BDP or anything similar. He has been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder and PTSD due to the trauma from the break-in last year as well as the child abuse he has faced.

I am so glad that you were able to find the right answer for your son. Thanks so much for your post!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I haven't read all of the pages but I just wanted to respond. It sounds to me like your son has bipolar disorder. Everything you are describing sounds like it. Bipolar disorder causes sensory issues too, bipolar disorder causes anxiety issues too, bipolar disorder causes OCD issues too. All of the symptoms you are describing can be wrapped up in one disorder. Everything you have described sounds like my son. I hope you will get a proper diagnosis and FINALLY start medicating him before he gets to the point that my son did - self-harming and suicidal at the age of 6.5. There is no shame in a diagnosis and there is no shame in medication. I stopped reading around page 8 but I was very saddened by your continued resistance to medication. Please get the book Intense Minds and you will see how it feels to be the child INSIDE of these emotions. He only gets one childhood and it is being ruined by his inability to handle life. Every rage, every episode causes permanent damage in the brain. I am not a doctor so I can't diagnose someone (and would never attempt to do so over the internet) but it really truly sounds like bipolar disorder to me. I hope you get him the help he needs.

(my son is now almost 10 and doing wonderfully on a combination of meds. I have my wonderful little boy back and I will be forever grateful for the medication that allowed that to happen)


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:

I know my son needs limits and consistency, but I also want him to have love and kindness and understanding. He's been through so much and has had so many terrifying times where people would not listen to him and where people hurt him very seriously. I think a lot of his acting out is because of that, and while I will not allow him to hurt me, himself, or others, or to damage property, there is a limit to how I must approach that. I have to let him know that with limits also come love, safety, and kindness, and this just felt abusive.
I am sorry but you are making excuses for him because you feel guilty that he's had a rough childhood.

My kids have moved an average of once a year since being born. I was spanked before my mom left my dad. Exposed to screaming fights on a daily basis before she left. there are kids that go through HELL and they are NOT ALLOWED TO HIT. Nobody's making excuses for them.

Quote:

He didn't threaten that. He said, "I NEED TO GO TO THE BATHROOM!" He asked repeatedly to go potty, but he wasn't allowed. He didn't ever say "I will pee on you if you don't let me go." He did say, "I am going to pee my pants!" but it was said after he made repeated requests and in a voice of complete desperation, like "PLEASE LET ME GO TO THE BATHROOM OR I AM GOING TO HAVE AN ACCIDENT!!!!
"

He's smarter than you give him credit for.

You are rescuing him again and again from consequences. If you don't like the therapist, leave. But he's got an out now. No matter what happens, if he has to pee (EVEN IF HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY BEFORE AND DID NOT GO) he has an out.

You see him as a tender victim and want to protect him from consequences of actions. That will not serve him.

Again, I have read this thread over years. And it happens again and again...

Quote:

I don't think those are fair consequences.
Sigh.

A lot of times when we push it to the limit, things get out of hand.

Nowhere in this are you talking about his responsibility.

What did she do? She didn't believe him after he cried wolf about his wrists. She thought he was lying to get out.

What did he do? He disrespected her room, he disrespected her in words, he disrespected her body.

Mama, you need to stop seeing him as a victim. Everything bad that happens to him, even unintended consequences, are abuse. Is that how you want him to live his life?

If she'll apologize, that's great. I personally would let him know why I didn't believe him, but then acknowledge that as an adult I had a responsibility to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Even if as a therapist I was risking a black eye or two.

You know... there are military kids. Adopted kids. Kids that see a death of one or more parents. Kids that are paddled DAILY. And that kind of behavior is not accepted from them.

Quote:

No, he didn't really have an opportunity to pee. This all happened within 5-10 minutes of us arriving, and he had just come from school, after being there for six hours. He often does not go to the bathroom at school, so when he said he had to go, I knew he REALLY needed to go. Both my son and his therapist were completely soaked.
My child often acts out when she has to pee. I ask her to pee before transitions and will not let her move forward with us until she does because, in my words, "I do not want to deal with a girl that is full of pee."

Needing to use the toilet is important, but again... she probably did not fully believe him and since he was physically threatening him, think about her perspective. He could have thrown a block at her head in the interim because he was having a tantrum.

Quote:

thinking that I have to help him understand and follow the rules of society or he will be in big trouble now and in his future------and the kind, gentle, understanding, attachment parenting mom I wanted to be.
There is your #1 problem.

There is NO CONTRADICTION between letting children experience negative consequences, and learning societal rules, and being a kind, gentle person.

Your therapist was calm throughout, right? She kept up one rule, right? She asked for one thing, right?

Firm limits are not aggression. ASSERTIVE, not aggressive. I can insist that my child behave in a certain way or leave the group, without being a cruel hardass. That is just normal expectations.

I really, really think you need to deal with your own feelings of guilt here. None of us can provide a perfect environment for our kids, and a lot of kids have it pretty darn tough. I know, he had his testicles scraped, and there was a break in, but he probably doesn't even remember how his bum hurt and there are mamas here whose kids have rashes like that for years because of food issues and those kids are troubled but nobody's making excuses for them.

He can be a survivor but not if you think of him as a victim.


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## Lady Lilya

It is hard for me to sort out all my thoughts and feelings about this, as it is such a complicated situation.

But I do think it is wrong to deny a human being the right to go to the bathroom. I don't see how he can learn to respect others if what is modeled to him is that might makes right and his basic physical needs can be withheld by those who can overpower him. I can still remember the experiences in my childhood that included those components, and they were traumatic, and I am sure they had an impact on my ability to require respectful treatment of myself from others.

And I think it is a mistake to start the next session with consequences from the previous one. That sort of thing applies to a relationship. If you do something wrong to your friend, they will approach you differently in the next interaction, and you will need to address it if you want to try to remove that tension. What he is supposed to be getting from his therapist is something different -- parallel and outside of a regular relationship. There aren't supposed to be the same consequences as you'd face out in the real world. Therapy is a haven in which to work out how to approach the real world when you walk out the door.


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## Lilygoose

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Hi Lilygoose:

I agree that kids, especially kids with emotional/behavioral issues, need consistent limits. This is something I have REALLY tried hard to provide for my son, but it's difficult to do at times.

I am not sure that my son's therapist was trying to intentionally send him spiraling out of control, but I think she WAS trying to say that "You ARE going to pick up these toys, and we will keep coming back to this until you comply with the rules."

It probably does seem a little weird to him because he didn't put those particular toys on the floor at that moment, and he knows she did it, so it probably seems unfair to him that he has to clean up toys that he didn't put there in the first place.

I see why she is doing it because otherwise he can just refuse to pick up the toys every time with no consequences. I am not sure how else she could enforce those consequences because in the past few sessions, he refused to clean up the toys, but then the session is over, so there were no consequences for that. She was trying to start the session again with the consequences the next time, but it definitely starts things off on the wrong foot.

Any suggestions on how to give him some logical and fair consequences for refusing to pick up the toys?

What if he brought some of his own toys to play with that he had to pick up to bring home with him? Or having some special reward (not necessarily purchased-could be a special toy he could play with the last ten minutes if he picked up all the other toys, or a special activity with you or the therapist or something-read a book, do sommersaults, anything that would appeal to him) that he earns through picking up the toys.

I also read your post about the talk with the therapist. It does sound like she's thoughtful (which does not necessarily mean she's right; or wrong) and I think its good that she's willing to see where the situation may have gotten out of hand and apologize for it. Whether he takes a break or not I think you should take him back for at least one session before doing so, just so that he can address the situation if he's fearful and it might reassure him to go back and have a more positive experience. Give him support and reassurance and validate his feelings, but because she is truly not trying t hurt him or scare him it could be good for him to hear her apology. It could build confidence.

Mostly I just want to send you hugs and applaud you for the time, thought and energy you put into your child through what sound like some extreme and difficult situations.


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## Bisou

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> I am sorry but you are making excuses for him because you feel guilty that he's had a rough childhood.
> 
> My kids have moved an average of once a year since being born. I was spanked before my mom left my dad. Exposed to screaming fights on a daily basis before she left. there are kids that go through HELL and they are NOT ALLOWED TO HIT. Nobody's making excuses for them.
> 
> *My son also has moved every single year of his life. I consider that relatively minor compared to the other things he's faced. He had a daycare worker abuse him by ripping the skin off of his testicles, NOT A "SCRATCH" AS YOU PUT IT BELOW, and has been held down and had a spoon shoved in his mouth in a different daycare a year later because he didn't want to eat the food the daycare was serving. On many occasions, he has been held down and brutalized. The abuse in the first daycare went on for at least several weeks before I realized what was happening.*
> 
> *However, this does NOT mean that I think it's ok for him to hit. If I was fine with him hitting, I would not put him in time out or give him any consequences. I have never made excuses for him hitting or said it's ok for him to hit. I DO NOT THINK IT'S OK FOR MY SON TO HIT, AND I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING THAT EVEN RESEMBLES THIS. BUT DO I THINK IT'S OK TO FORCE A CHILD TO PEE HIS PANTS BECAUSE HE TRIED TO HIT? ABSOLUTELY NOT.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> He's smarter than you give him credit for.
> 
> You are rescuing him again and again from consequences. If you don't like the therapist, leave. But he's got an out now. No matter what happens, if he has to pee (EVEN IF HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY BEFORE AND DID NOT GO) he has an out.
> 
> You see him as a tender victim and want to protect him from consequences of actions. That will not serve him.
> 
> Again, I have read this thread over years. And it happens again and again...
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> A lot of times when we push it to the limit, things get out of hand.
> 
> Nowhere in this are you talking about his responsibility.
> 
> What did she do? She didn't believe him after he cried wolf about his wrists. She thought he was lying to get out.
> 
> What did he do? He disrespected her room, he disrespected her in words, he disrespected her body.
> *And she disrespected his humanity when she forced him to pee his pants, something that even a serial killer in police custody would be forced to do. In his past, he has been held down and hurt. Many, many times. I am not talking about simply "moving a lot" or being around parents who scream. I am talking about someone physically holding him down and causing him intentional pain, perhaps for a sadistic sexual reason, or perhaps just to torture him. These were people that were supposed to take care of him. People who pinched his legs and twisted and caused bruises all over the backs of his legs and then did the same thing to his testicles---pinched, twisted, and ripped his two-year-old genitals. If you know anything about PTSD, you would know that mimicking a situation that has happened in the past is triggering. Even his therapist recognized that after the fact. He felt unsafe. He was forced to pee his pants. He was afraid.
> 
> Just because I don't think it's ok for him to pee his pants doesn't mean that I don't think he should have consequences. I don't see why you are attacking me so much for this. I have never said he should be able to hit and act out because of what has happened to him. In fact, I didn't even say I had a problem with the way the time out was handled until he wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom. He could have been taken to the bathroom then returned to the time out if he was still unable to control himself.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Mama, you need to stop seeing him as a victim. Everything bad that happens to him, even unintended consequences, are abuse. Is that how you want him to live his life?
> 
> If she'll apologize, that's great. I personally would let him know why I didn't believe him, but then acknowledge that as an adult I had a responsibility to give him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Even if as a therapist I was risking a black eye or two.
> 
> You know... there are military kids. Adopted kids. Kids that see a death of one or more parents. Kids that are paddled DAILY. And that kind of behavior is not accepted from them.
> *Right. If kids who are "paddled" act out, they are just "paddled" more. Is that what you would suggest? I don't think military kids or adopted kids, unless they also faced abuse in several different situations, are in the same category as my son. I don't see why you are trying to minimize my son's experience by comparing it to what other kids have experienced. It's not relevant, and it's not a fair comparison. I know lots of military kids and adopted kids who have had wonderful, safe lives surrounded by people who love them. There is no trauma inherent in being a military kid or an adopted kid.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> My child often acts out when she has to pee. I ask her to pee before transitions and will not let her move forward with us until she does because, in my words, "I do not want to deal with a girl that is full of pee."
> 
> Needing to use the toilet is important, but again... she probably did not fully believe him and since he was physically threatening him, think about her perspective. He could have thrown a block at her head in the interim because he was having a tantrum.
> 
> There is your #1 problem.
> 
> There is NO CONTRADICTION between letting children experience negative consequences, and learning societal rules, and being a kind, gentle person.
> 
> Your therapist was calm throughout, right? She kept up one rule, right? She asked for one thing, right?
> 
> Firm limits are not aggression. ASSERTIVE, not aggressive. I can insist that my child behave in a certain way or leave the group, without being a cruel hardass. That is just normal expectations.
> 
> I really, really think you need to deal with your own feelings of guilt here. None of us can provide a perfect environment for our kids, and a lot of kids have it pretty darn tough. I know, he had his testicles scraped, and there was a break in, but he probably doesn't even remember how his bum hurt and there are mamas here whose kids have rashes like that for years because of food issues and those kids are troubled but nobody's making excuses for them.
> *I don't know what you are talking about with his "bum hurting" and having rashes. My son has never had a problem with rashes or his bottom. Comparing what happened to my son to an ongoing rash is NOT EVEN CLOSE.
> 
> You minimize my son's abuse by saying he had his "testicles scraped," like it was some minor accident. This is not what happened. He was only two years old when he had his testicles pinched, twisted, and ripped so that the skin was literally ripped off. They were bright red and massively swollen when he came home from daycare with skin hanging off of them. When I saw his damaged testicles, it was so horrifying that I almost vomited. I had removed his diaper to give him a bath, and he just started screaming and sobbing and saying "Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!" He told me "The teacher hit my penis," and when I took him to the doctor, the doctor confirmed that there was no other explanation that what I described. The testicles were so injured that my son had to undergo ultrasounds and other testing to make sure the testicles weren't permanently damaged and that no surgery was needed.
> 
> THIS IS NOT TESTICLES BEING "SCRAPED." This was a case of serious child abuse.
> 
> He also had bruises covering the entire backs of his legs, which the doctor believed were also caused by pinching and twisting his skin. He had been having a huge fit every time I had to take him to the daycare for several weeks. He would scream, rip off his clothes, and hit his head on the floor when it was time to go to daycare. He seemed terrified, but friends told me that I just needed to show him who was boss and tell him that he needed to go to daycare NO MATTER WHAT. I felt like something was terribly wrong, but since I saw no signs of abuse, I thought maybe he just didn't want to be at daycare. At two, daycare was a new thing for him, but for the first few months, he was fine. It was only when he had this new teacher, the one who abused him, that he began acting out in this way. He was only two years old. It's likely that he was held down and abused for at least several weeks. He had been saying "Ow! Ow! Ow" when I would change his diaper for a few weeks, and this really concerned me, but I didn't see any problem (no rash, bruises, etc), and I would ask him what hurts, but he never really explained it. It appears that she may have been abusing him every time his diaper was changed, and it finally got to the point to where she left extensive visible damage to him. I will never know exactly what happened to him (was it sexual abuse also, physical abuse only, or both?) or how many times it happened. The thought of it is sickening.
> 
> This is much more serious than the other things you mentioned, like a child moving a lot, being a military child, having diaper rash, or being around yelling parents (which wouldn't be healthy, of course, but isn't the same as severe sexual/physical abuse in my book). We are talking about basically torture of a child involving his genitals. It was after this point that his behavior really took a HUGE turn for the worse. He was a very angry, sad, rage-filled child. I understand why. He was forced again and again to be in an unsafe situation. I forced him to be in this situation because I didn't know what was happening. No wonder he was angry at me.
> 
> A year later when he was three, we faced the break-in attempt. It was in the middle of the night and we were alone, and the intruder was armed and intent on hurting (raping and cutting up) me and possibly my son. He and I were terrified out of our minds as we listened to the man trying to break down our door while it took police 30 minutes to arrive. As much as his little mind could understand, he knew we were in serious danger. This has caused him nightmares and he is constantly afraid. He had a hard time sleeping for months. He still talks about "bad guys" trying to get us on an almost daily basis. He is afraid of all Mexican men because the guy who tried to break into our house was Mexican and lived across the street. Every time he sees a person who resembles the attacker, he is afraid the attacker has come back to get us.
> 
> Again, not the same as moving a lot. Not even remotely close.
> 
> A few weeks after the break-in attempt when he was in extreme emotional distress and witnessing his mom in distress dealing with hearings, Grand Jury proceedings and the like, and suddenly removed from our home and everyone we knew, he was physically held down at his daycare and force-fed. The director of his small preschool held him down and forced a spoon through his closed mouth and forced it through his teeth while he shook, cried, spit out the food, and gagged. This happened on two or three different occasions and so distressed the two teachers who observed it that they reported it as child abuse to the Department of Human Services (which deals with child abuse in our state) and one person quit her job. (The only teacher only continued working there because she was a single mom with no other work and was afraid about supporting her family.) He was so scared that every time it was time to sit down and eat, he would begin crying and shaking and begging for mommy.
> 
> Again, he was with people who were supposed to care for him and keep him safe, and he was physically brutalized and terrified.
> 
> You mention that he "probably doesn't even remember," but most people, including both mainstream psychology/psychiatry and more alternative medicine and mental health, accept that traumatic experiences like what my son has faced stays with the person, even if in the subconscious. There are even people that believe that trauma the mother faces in the womb or a difficult birth affects a child. Surely if that's the case, my son is affected by what horrors he faced at 2 and 3. After the abuse at age 2, he talked about it for months. He cried and vomited when his diaper was changed for weeks after the event. It was serious. He still remembers and talks about the force feeding and will ask "Why did she do that to me?" And of course the break-in trauma is something that affects him on a daily basis. We are talking about traumas that happened 1-2 years ago. I know these things affect him.
> 
> The trauma my son has faced has changed who he is as a person, and I will not minimize the impact it has had on him. In order to help my son, I have to be conscious of what he has faced in his past. If a child is so terrified or humiliated during a time out, how does that help him calm down? Would you be calm if you were forced to pee your pants? I wouldn't be.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> He can be a survivor but not if you think of him as a victim.
> *The traumatic experiences my son has faced have shaped who he is. He is not a victim as his identity, but he has been a victim of horrific abuse. That doesn't mean he isn't also a survivor.
> 
> This also doesn't mean that he can hit, kick, bite, and act out other aggressive behaviors without consequences. I do not believe this and I have not said this. However, this does mean that he should not be re-traumatized in the course of trying to help him gain control. Forcing him to pee his pants does NOT help him gain control of his emotions. Is it a good idea to restrain him to prevent him from hurting others, himself, or damaging property? In most cases, yes. I have done this with him more times than I can count. There have been days that he has been so out of control that he had to be held down for many hours in a day. But I have tried to move away from restraint holds because it always escalated the situation, so I have tried to find ways to discipline him that do not involve restraining him unless I absolutely have to.
> 
> You are making judgments about me saying that I am making excuses for him and not expecting his behavior to have consequences, but that is only based on the limited information I have given here. It doesn't represent the whole of our experience. It represents a portion of our experiences, a few bad days out of hundreds of different discipline experiences. When I post here, usually it's because we've had an especially bad time of it, and I am looking to vent and gain support and ideas. I often don't post about the many times I have disciplined him successfully. No parent disciplines their child perfectly 100% of the time. We all (probably) have yelled at times and caved when we shouldn't have. You are judging my entire parenting approach based on what I have posted about the worst times I've had with my son, which while true, do not represent but a portion of our lives.
> 
> He has improved a lot in the last year or two DUE TO the consequences he has had imposed by me. Is he perfect? Not even close. But he's much better. If he doesn't listen at the playground or doesn't play gently or fairly with other children, we leave the playground immediately. If he is rude at therapy or does not comply with his therapist's requests, he loses the chance to go out to dinner or some other special activity we had planned after therapy. If he hits or yells or screams at home, he goes into his room for a time out, and if he's unable to complete the time out successfully or is damaging property or continues to try to hurt me, I restrain him. His attempts to hurt me have decreased in intensity by about 80% compared to where he was about a year ago. Now in most cases he will make a weak "swat" towards me rather than a full on attack. While I still treat any form of hitting the same, the intensity of his aggression has really decreased. I think this is because of the consequences I have set.
> 
> My son is now able to play fairly successfully with other children. When I take him to other friends' homes, I am not afraid that we will be asked to leave and not return. (This has never happened, but I always was afraid it would happen!) When we go out to eat, on several occasions waiters and others at the restaurant have commented that my son is one of the most well behaved children they have seen in a restaurant, or "I wish my child acted like that in a restaurant!" Why has he made these changes? Because of the consequences I have imposed on him for negative behaviors and also probably because of the positive reinforcement I've given him for good behavior.
> 
> You are being extremely judgmental, and I think there's a big difference between offering a perspective or opinion and making judgments about how I am parenting or not parenting. Without knowing me and seeing how I parent my child in person, you really can't make judgments about whether I am imposing consequences or not. There have been bad days where I haven't been able to impose consequences as well as I should, but don't all parents make mistakes? Haven't you made mistakes with your own children?
> 
> My son has been through a LOT. And I also take issue with minimizing his experiences or comparing it to what other children face. Every child is different. Every child reacts to trauma in a different way. My son has reacted to trauma with extreme rage. I understand it. I don't accept violent behavior for him because of that. I don't say, "Well, it's ok for him to hit because he was abused." There is a difference between understanding why something happens and accepting it as if it's ok. It's NOT OK for him to be violent or disrespectful. If I thought it was ok, I never would have posted on this site in the first place. I posted here because I was looking for support, advice, and information. For the most part, people have been very supportive and helpful, even if I haven't always agreed with their opinions. People have offered advice and suggestions that have greatly helped my son, like the suggestion that I look into Sensory Processing Disorder, which my son was diagnosed with (and is also another reason why restraint holds aren't probably the best choice for him unless absolutely necessary).
> 
> All I am saying, with so many words, is that my son's past experiences do not excuse his behavior, but they do shape who he is and why he reacts the way he does. He is full of fear, and for good reason. He has been through hell in his little life, and I didn't even mention the smaller traumas and losses he's faced.
> 
> His experiences must shape the way he is disciplined, and I will continue to discipline him in a gentle, but firm way, to the best of my ability. I will not allow him to be placed in situations that re-traumatize him or replicate past traumatic experiences. I will not allow him to be humiliated or shamed or treated as less than human.
> 
> Thankfully, after our discussion, my son's therapist agrees with my feelings and thinks her approach was not the right approach for my son. She felt that he was experiencing extreme fear and rage about his fear during the session. As a result, she is going to dramatically revise her approach with my son. We will just have to go from there and decide how to proceed with further therapy, if that's what we decide to do.*


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## Bisou

Hi Lady Lilya:

I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I had an experience when I was about 5 or 6 and I was with my parents and their friends and children at a large mall. My mom was very busy visiting with her friend, and though I kept telling her over and over that I needed to go to the bathroom, she wasn't listening and was irritated at me interrupting her conversation. When she finally listened and tried to get me to the bathroom probably 15-20 minutes later, it was too late and I peed my pants. I remember being completely humiliated by that---completely and totally humiliated. My parents were angry with me, and we had to go into a store and buy new clothes because my parents didn't have a change of clothes for me.

This is different than what happened to my son because I wasn't having a tantrum, but I still remember that experience and how upsetting it was to me.

As far as carrying over the consequences from one therapy session to the next, I have really mixed feelings about that. I think she is trying to get him to work through things, but if therapy continues to be a negative experience for him every time when he is doing well in his daily life outside of therapy, I will have to decide if this is still what I want to do. She feels like it's good when he shows extreme emotions in therapy because then she knows what he is dealing with and what I am dealing with and can try to address that. I think she was honestly shocked and not sure about what to do during the session we had on Wednesday. She was shocked at his inability to calm down, at his strength (I had told her he is EXTREMELY strong, but I don't think she believed me!), and at his fear and rage. In our phone conversation, she said it was clear from the session that he has incredible amounts of fear that she believes is causing his rage. She thinks he is angry about being so afraid. I can understand and see this in him myself.

Thanks for your post!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
It is hard for me to sort out all my thoughts and feelings about this, as it is such a complicated situation.

But I do think it is wrong to deny a human being the right to go to the bathroom. I don't see how he can learn to respect others if what is modeled to him is that might makes right and his basic physical needs can be withheld by those who can overpower him. I can still remember the experiences in my childhood that included those components, and they were traumatic, and I am sure they had an impact on my ability to require respectful treatment of myself from others.

And I think it is a mistake to start the next session with consequences from the previous one. That sort of thing applies to a relationship. If you do something wrong to your friend, they will approach you differently in the next interaction, and you will need to address it if you want to try to remove that tension. What he is supposed to be getting from his therapist is something different -- parallel and outside of a regular relationship. There aren't supposed to be the same consequences as you'd face out in the real world. Therapy is a haven in which to work out how to approach the real world when you walk out the door.


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## Bisou

Hi Lilygoose:

Thanks for your post and your suggestions. My son's therapist used to offer a small reward from a basket (a small toy, pencil, stickers, etc) when he complied with her requests, but then she decided to discontinue that (with all of her clients, not just my son). Maybe I can talk to her about other ways to reward his picking up the toys. I have read a lot about how parents really need to focus as much as possible on the positive reinforcement. While negative reinforcement (negative consequences for a negative behavior) is also necessary, I think positive reinforcement seems to go a LONG way.

Thanks for the kind words. It's not easy to be a parent to this child and do it alone. I had very bad role models in my parents, and I don't want to be that kind of parent to my child, but it's hard to make better decisions about discipline when 1) I have such a challenging child, and 2) the way I was raised is absolutely imprinted in my brain and comes out under stress.

I appreciate the postings and support of my fellow MDC moms. You all have been a great help as I work my way through this. I think things with my son are gradually getting better, with a few major glitches along the way, but overall I see some good improvement!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lilygoose* 
What if he brought some of his own toys to play with that he had to pick up to bring home with him? Or having some special reward (not necessarily purchased-could be a special toy he could play with the last ten minutes if he picked up all the other toys, or a special activity with you or the therapist or something-read a book, do sommersaults, anything that would appeal to him) that he earns through picking up the toys.

I also read your post about the talk with the therapist. It does sound like she's thoughtful (which does not necessarily mean she's right; or wrong) and I think its good that she's willing to see where the situation may have gotten out of hand and apologize for it. Whether he takes a break or not I think you should take him back for at least one session before doing so, just so that he can address the situation if he's fearful and it might reassure him to go back and have a more positive experience. Give him support and reassurance and validate his feelings, but because she is truly not trying t hurt him or scare him it could be good for him to hear her apology. It could build confidence.

Mostly I just want to send you hugs and applaud you for the time, thought and energy you put into your child through what sound like some extreme and difficult situations.


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## Bisou

Hi Barbie!!!

I totally get what you are saying about me being worried about undermining the therapist's authority, and I even had that thought when I was writing the post. I guess what I was thinking is that I try not to contradict another adult and authority figure (grandparents, therapist, teacher) in front of my son because I don't want my son to think that the other person is the "bad guy" and doesn't need to be listened to, just as they say you shouldn't contradict the other parent during a discipline situation.

*However, I DO feel like I should have said, "I think I need to take my son to the bathroom and we will come back and finish the time out."* It just all happened so fast that as I was thinking it through and thinking, "I need to take him; I should say something now," he peed his pants.

You said very strongly that I shouldn't take my son back to the therapist. This is how I initially felt, but I was torn because she's been a very good support system for me until now, and we've seen her for about 2 years.

If you can, read my posting about the phone conversation I had with my son's therapist, and let me know if you still feel the same way. She has admitted that she didn't handle it as well as she could have and wishes she had let him go to the bathroom. She has promised to always let him go to the bathroom in the future. She wants to apologize to my son.

I guess I feel like maybe I should give it at least one more try to at least allow my son to hear her apology and see if we can work through this. I do want to talk to her further about whether we can modify her approach, as several people have mentioned (and I agree) that it seems odd to start a session in the same bad place that we were in at the end of a previous session after an entire week has passed. She has also agreed that we won't start in a time out next time, and this is something I wouldn't have allowed. I wouldn't have brought him back an entire week later to be put into time out.

I have not had my son's lead levels tested. I don't think we've been in a place where he is really exposed to lead, as we don't live in an older home and never have. Do you think that would still be relevant?

You've always been such a good support person for me on MDC, and thank you for that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
I may not be one to talk here, something jumped out at me from your post.

You said you didnt want to undermine the THEREPISTS authority. But to your son, YOU are the authority. You trump everyone in his eyes. So it might have been really confusing for him to be asking for your help, while you are right there, and he wasn't getting it. (Im trying to be as gentle as I can here because I cant immagine the trauma you yourself are weeding through right now)

IMO (which doesnt mean squat) you need to rebuild trust with your son again by NEVER taking him to tha ttherepist again. She humilated him. She tramatized him. I honestly think you should tell him that what she did to him was WRONG, and that your sorry she did that to you. And that she will NEVER be able to do that to her again.

Then I would write the therepist telling her the fit is no longer working with her, and you will no longer be requiring her services. And find another therepist.

I forget, did you ever say whether or not you had your sons lead levels tested?

OMG, I feel so bad mama. I cant immagine enduring any of that. Im so sorry. I dont know what else to say. It just doesnt seem fair that a good, hardworking mother and sweet little boy should have to endure such trauma their entire lives. Sending you a million virtual hugs.


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## quietmim

I have read the entire thread and I just wanted to say something... I don't know how I would cope in your shoes! I think you are doing an amazing job.

Also, lead exposure can occur outside of the home, from old buildings, construction sites, unknown sources.... I have known children with elevated lead levels who lived in new, modern homes.


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:

Right. If kids who are "paddled" act out, they are just "paddled" more. Is that what you would suggest?
I would never suggest that.

Quote:

You are being extremely judgmental, and I think there's a big difference between offering a perspective or opinion and making judgments about how I am parenting or not parenting. Without knowing me and seeing how I parent my child in person, you really can't make judgments about whether I am imposing consequences or not.
I am judging your reaction here and what you post here, not whether or not you are a good parent.

I do not think suggesting you look at your son as a survivor rather than as a victim is somehow callous and disregarding his past experiences.

Your son, THE WHOLE TIME, had the option of calming down, apologizing, and going to the bathroom.

He CHOSE not to.

You feel bad for him. Not the therapist that made a simple, human request that he stop threatening, and then peed on her?

No, I don't know how you parent on a daily basis.

I do know that what you describe here is a litany of abuse and victimization, rarely of him overcoming obstacles. You see him continually traumatized by obstacles.

I would argue that this is LESS respectful of him as a person than to treat him as a survivor and look at this from a perspective that he is going to have a lot more problems and obstacles, if he does not learn to respect others.

I'm not talking "minding" adults.

I'm talking about respecting other people.

He peed on your therapist because he refused to calm down and apologize, after trashing part of her room and going at her physically. And you feel bad for HIM?!?!

If my child did that, I would be horrified at my child, or at the very least, sad about HER CHOICE.


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## D_McG

I think EdnaMarie is making some really spot on points. I have also seen a huge turnaround in my son when I started holding him accountable for his behavior than when I used to 'rescue' him every time he experienced strong emotions. Best of luck to you and him.


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## Lady Lilya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou*
She was shocked at his inability to calm down

I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.

Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.

Anyway, I don't see how anything the therapist did had the potential to teach him to be in control of his emotions. I see a lot of ways it was intended to teach him to submit to authority. And I see what some of the others are saying -- if you learn to to what you are told well, then life is easier and you have fewer conflicts to deal with. But is that the route to better mental health for him? Or is that just permanently resigning himself to forever being in the power of others who are stronger than him?

Rereading Edna's posts, I see that she is entirely coming from a place that assumes that it was all in his control. And based on that premise her posts make sense. But I can't believe that premise.

I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.

If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way. (And I know I am like that too, with crying, though DH always assumes I cry to manipulate him, not because my emotions are overwhelmed. But I know that it is not a tool I am choosing.)

And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)


----------



## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.

Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.

Anyway, I don't see how anything the therapist did had the potential to teach him to be in control of his emotions. I see a lot of ways it was intended to teach him to submit to authority. And I see what some of the others are saying -- if you learn to to what you are told well, then life is easier and you have fewer conflicts to deal with. But is that the route to better mental health for him? Or is that just permanently resigning himself to forever being in the power of others who are stronger than him?

Rereading Edna's posts, I see that she is entirely coming from a place that assumes that it was all in his control. And based on that premise her posts make sense. But I can't believe that premise.

I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.

If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way. (And I know I am like that too, with crying, though DH always assumes I cry to manipulate him, not because my emotions are overwhelmed. But I know that it is not a tool I am choosing.)

And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)

I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed. For many children, that would be true, but from everything OP has said, and everything I have observed in my own child, it does not appear to be in this case.

ETA: It really sounds like the therapist came at this from a faulty perspective too, and ended up just setting him up to fail. It also sounds like she acknowledged that and is able and willing to try a different approach in the future. Bisou, if your son is willing to go back, I think it could be a valuable lesson for all.


----------



## Bisou

EdnaMarie said:


> Quote:
> 
> Your son, THE WHOLE TIME, had the option of calming down, apologizing, and going to the bathroom.
> 
> He CHOSE not to.
> Like others have mentioned, I do not believe he had the option of calming down at that moment. He was threatened and afraid because he was being held down in a very uncomfortable way. It triggered his PTSD, which made him completely out of control with fear. *You choose to disregard these points, to just ignore them, and instead insist that he was able to control himself.*
> 
> In addition, he has sensory processing disorder and is extremely sensitive to touch. When other people touch him, it's very upsetting and he takes it as an attack. This can even be a simple touch on the shoulder. He does not know how to interpret touch and other sensory information, and as a result, sensory information is upsetting to him because he doesn't know what it means. This is what sensory processing disorder is.
> 
> Here is an explanation about this part of SPD (tactile defensiveness) from an SPD website. This is an accepted clinical diagnosis, and my son has been diagnosed with this disorder.
> 
> *Children who have tactile defensiveness are sensitive to touch sensations and can be easily overwhelmed by, and fearful of, ordinary daily experiences and activities.
> 
> Sensory defensiveness can prevent a child from play and interactions critical to learning and social interactions.
> 
> Often, children with tactile defensiveness (hypersensitivity to touch/tactile input) will avoid touching, become fearful of, or bothered by the following:
> 
> #textured materials/items
> # "messy" things
> # vibrating toys, etc.
> # a hug
> # a kiss
> # certain clothing textures
> # rough or bumpy bed sheets
> # seams on socks
> # tags on shirts
> # light touch
> # hands or face being dirty
> # shoes and/or sandals
> # wind blowing on bare skin
> #bare feet touching grass or sand*
> 
> *Children may become fearful, avoid activities, withdraw, or act out as their body responds with a "fight-or-flight" response.*
> 
> *Why does this happen? It's all about the way in which one's nervous system interprets touch sensations and stimulation. I suspect you too would react with a "fight back" or "flee" response if any of the above listed items to YOU felt like sandpaper rubbing against your skin or 10 spiders crawling up your arm that you can't get off.*
> 
> *It is not their fault! It is absolutely 100% about the WAY in which their nervous system interprets a tactile stimulus! Please don't blame them or punish them... be proactive and help them get the treatment and accommodations they need!
> *
> *(Note: It is not uncommon for a child with tactile defensiveness to become aggressive towards other children if they are touched or bumped into at school. Be aware of this type of reaction and be proactive by putting them in the front or end of a line, for example).*
> 
> *Is this your view of all mental health issues: that the person can just snap out of it and get themselves under control?
> 
> Also, you will note that kids with SPD, as explained above, can have an out of control "fight or flight" response just from a light touch or a hug, and this was someone tightly squeezing him with his arms wrapped around him. This was very intense touch, so of course it would make him react in an even more out of control way, especially when he had to go to the bathroom, and then was extremely distressed and panicked when he realized he would not be allowed to go. This made him even more unable to calm down.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You feel bad for him. Not the therapist that made a simple, human request that he stop threatening, and then peed on her?
> *My son peed on her because he was unable to calm down and was not allowed to go to the bathroom. He had no other choice. And, you also keep taking the side of the therapist who HERSELF has admitted this was a big mistake, that he could not control his emotions or need to go to the bathroom, and says she should have let him go to the bathroom. You continue to insist that he could have simply calmed down and then could have gone to the bathroom.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> No, I don't know how you parent on a daily basis.
> 
> I do know that what you describe here is a litany of abuse and victimization, rarely of him overcoming obstacles. You see him continually traumatized by obstacles.
> *Again, you choose to ignore what I have said in my post and choose to see my son as a manipulator, really as a "bad" kid who "chooses" not to act appropriately, one who is in complete control of his emotions despite what has happened to him. In my post, I mentioned MANY good things my son has done and how he has improved greatly. You chose to ignore those comments that specifically showed how he was overcoming obstacles.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> I would argue that this is LESS respectful of him as a person than to treat him as a survivor and look at this from a perspective that he is going to have a lot more problems and obstacles, if he does not learn to respect others.
> 
> I'm not talking "minding" adults.
> 
> I'm talking about respecting other people.
> 
> He peed on your therapist because he refused to calm down and apologize, after trashing part of her room and going at her physically. And you feel bad for HIM?!?!
> 
> If my child did that, I would be horrified at my child, or at the very least, sad about HER CHOICE.
> Again, I have said that I do expect him to act appropriately and I do not think it's ok for him to hurt people or damage property. It just blows my mind that you think it's ok to refuse to allow a child to use the bathroom.
> 
> *This will probably be my last post responding to your postings.* I have found this conversation with you contrary to the reason I post here: to get support and helpful ideas. Instead, your postings seem to attack me and my son and make judgments about why we make the decisions we do. *You refuse to acknowledge that his traumatic experiences or his sensory processing disorder have any bearing on his reactions, and that instead he is manipulative and in control of his emotions, when he is not.*
> 
> I feel like I am wasting time and valuable emotional energy responding to your posts, which feel attacking and upsetting, and this exchange feels like nothing but negativity to me.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 

I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.

THANK YOU.

Quote:

Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.
Yes. When my son was already disregulated, then had to go to the bathroom and realized he was not going to be allowed to go, he was completely out of his mind at that point. He has a real issue with people not believing him, and if he is telling the truth ("I have to go to the bathroom!") and is not listened to, it upsets him to no end. He feels like it's unfair.

Yes, he had been trying to hit us and needed to be prevented from doing so. However, I would have said something like, "Ok, I am going to take you to the bathroom, but you cannot hit me." I can bet you, based on past experience, that he would NOT try to hit me while taking him to the bathroom because he would feel listened to and his need would be addressed. Allowing him to go to the bathroom may have very well allowed him to calm down.

Quote:

I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.
This is the case with my son as well, though we are working on improving his ability to cope and to calm himself. I have really been working with him to calm himself BEFORE he hits or tries to damage things, and I have had great improvements with that.

Quote:

If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way.
Yes.

Quote:

And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)
[/QUOTE]

With my son, lately he has been able to go into his room and have a time out there and calm himself down. He gets out books or plays with toys and calms himself. I have seen improvements in his ability to do so. Also I have been able to see when he's getting out of sorts and use language to calm him down, like "I see you're getting really upset. Can you please try to calm down? What is upsetting you?" If I can catch him before he blows, he is often able to stop the meltdown or talk about it. Once he has blown, it's extremely hard for him to gain control of his emotions and talking about it is impossible.

Thanks for your post, Lady Lilya.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, *I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed.* For many children, that would be true, but from everything OP has said, and everything I have observed in my own child, it does not appear to be in this case.

Yep, I completely agree. We are working towards him being able to control himself and trying to teach him to do so, but right now due to his issues with PTSD and SPD, he is not able to at times. Lots of times he controls himself magnificently, but sometimes he can't and doesn't.

Quote:

ETA: It really sounds like the therapist came at this from a faulty perspective too, and ended up just setting him up to fail. It also sounds like she acknowledged that and is able and willing to try a different approach in the future. Bisou, if your son is willing to go back, I think it could be a valuable lesson for all.
Yes, I am hoping to take him back and try to work through this and just see how it goes. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:

I don't see why you are attacking me so much for this.
I don't think suggesting that you look at it from a different perspective is an attack.

I'm suggesting you look at how you are framing this whole problem, casting your son as a victim and not lookin at his role in what is happening to him.

And he did have a choice. You are suggesting he was calm enough for her to let go safely, and him to go to the bathroom? I'm not sure what kind of tantrums he has, but I do think that if you both think you would have been safe letting him go, and that he would go to the bathroom himself, then he was at least calm enough to make a choice such as, "I'm going to give her what she wants, take a deep breath, so I won't pee my pants."

Sorry, you can't have him be totally out of control and have her letting go, when he's physically threatening her.

And if you say he was under control, that he would have gone to the bathroom, that he was calming down, then hold him to account. He wanted the game to stop while he took a time out, so that he could safely go back and continue having his way.

Nature interfered.

And IIRC--was not the abuse of holding him down etc. occurring about three-four years ago? As far as I remember, there was physical abuse when he was about two, a break in, and those were the two major things, is that right?

It is very sad and I am very, very sorry for all he has suffered. I know that I truly cannot imagine what his life is like.

I do know that it sounds, from what you are posting, that he is stronger and more resiliant than you are giving him credit for in this particular instance.

FWIW, if I'd been the therapist, there probably would not have been toys at the next visit. All the toys you don't clean up go away. Is that a possibility, if he can't deal with a clean-up a week later?

Quote:

it was said after he made repeated requests and in a voice of complete desperation, like "PLEASE LET ME GO TO THE BATHROOM OR I AM GOING TO HAVE AN ACCIDENT!!!!"
But no, I refuse to apologize and I refuse to calm down!

In other words--I demand you respect my bodily integrity and treat me as a person, but no, I will not do the same for you.

Quote:

I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed.
There is no way I would let a child that was six, and uncontrollable in a fit of rage, have at me, his mom, and my room.

Even if he had to pee. I'd much rather get peed on than get a black eye, frankly.

And if that is the kind of lack of control we're talking about, which I fully understand exists, then that was a good choice, in my opinion.

I suspect, based on the whole story, that he was already partly calmed down, and therefore capable of making a rational choice, "Yes, I will calm down, please let me go pee, I'm sorry about the toys."


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:

ou choose to disregard these points, to just ignore them, and instead insist that he was able to control himself.
If he could not control himself, there was no way the therapist could safely let him go pee.

Sorry. You can't have it both ways--"Oh, if she'd have let go, he'd have gone pee, come back, and dealt," AND "he was so out of control, he couldn't calm down or apologize".


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
And IIRC--was not the abuse of holding him down etc. occurring about three-four years ago? As far as I remember, there was physical abuse when he was about two, a break in, and those were the two major things, is that right?

If you read one of the last postings, there was the major abuse when he was three, then the break in and the force feeding abuse at daycare when he was around 4. He is only 5 now. So this is all pretty recent, most of it happening within a year.

In any case, I am not sure when the abuse happened is relevant. Physical and sexual abuse that people face still affects them as adults, years and years later.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
If he could not control himself, there was no way the therapist could safely let him go pee.

Sorry. You can't have it both ways--"Oh, if she'd have let go, he'd have gone pee, come back, and dealt," AND "he was so out of control, he couldn't calm down or apologize".

*This is exactly what I am talking about with your posts. Rather than being helpful, you are more concerned with being right and "winning" the debate you seem insistent on having: that my son was in control, and I am wrong, and my reactions to my son's behavior are wrong and enabling his behavior.

While I feel the need to refute your points and stand up for my son and explain the situation, I don't want to continue this "debate."

Ok, you win. You are right. My son was COMPLETELY in control of himself and deserved to pee his pants. That will teach him a lesson. You can now pat yourself on the back and declare yourself the winner.

For myself, I prefer to treat my child with more kindness, love, understanding, and compassion than that.

This is not the kind, supportive discussion I am accustomed to having on MDC, and it's very disappointing.*


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## Xerxella

I think it's pretty clear that most people here feel that he does not have the ability to calm down when his SPD is triggered.

*The same way that if one of us was crying uncontrollably from a serious trauma, we couldn't just stop crying on a dime even if someone offered us a million dollars.*

From all your posts (and I've read them all over the year) it seems that he responds better to a time away than a restraint hold. So, like you believe, the trip to the bathroom may have just been enough to help him pull himself together.

Have you worked on some breathing techniques to help him calm down? Have him look at you and you both breathe slowly and say In through the nose out through the mouth. It's simplistic, but can be very effective for everyone.


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## EdnaMarie

First, I don't appreciate the sarcasm, because I have repeatedly expressed my sympathy here. I was trying to point something out here that you obviously aren't ready to hear, but that doesn't mean I was trying to "win"--I was trying to get my point across, but you repeatedly came back to the same script.

You seem really, really disturbed and upset at the idea that your son could be even partly responsible for such dire consequences. I am sorry for putting that out there because it's obviously too much to consider at this point.

I am really sorry for all you are going through, but I don't think it's unsupportive to suggest an alternative interpretation of the situation.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
First, I don't appreciate the sarcasm, because I have repeatedly expressed my sympathy here. I was trying to point something out here that you obviously aren't ready to hear, but that doesn't mean I was trying to "win"--I was trying to get my point across, but you repeatedly came back to the same script.

You seem really, really disturbed and upset at the idea that your son could be even partly responsible for such dire consequences. I am sorry for putting that out there because it's obviously too much to consider at this point.

I am really sorry for all you are going through, but I don't think it's unsupportive to suggest an alternative interpretation of the situation.

Suggesting an "alternative interpretation" is what you did in your first post, which was fine, but then you argued again and again that your interpretation was right and mine was wrong. If you were just offering an "alternative interpretation," you can do that. I appreciated the alternative viewpoint in your first post. But continually hammering it home that "this was all within his control" is where this becomes a debate that you are unwilling to let go. You don't know me or my son, and while I think it's reasonable to suggest that perhaps he was able to control himself, to continue to argue with me that he WAS able to control himself when based on my interactions with him and knowing my child I know he is NOT, that is just not at all reasonable or sympathetic. While I might make a suggestion or offer advice, I would NEVER argue with you about what your child is or isn't capable of. You know your child and based on your child's temperament, past experiences, and capabilities, you know what is or isn't reasonable for your child. The same holds true for me and my child.

You don't appreciate my sarcasm, and I also did not appreciate comments like "Sorry, you can't have it both ways" or that I described a "litany of abuse" that my child has suffered. The term "litany" has a negative connotation. For example, "I didn't want to hear his litany of complaints" refers to someone going on and on in an unnecessary and annoying fashion. You have continually minimized what has happened to my son, calling very serious child abuse a "scratch on his testicles" or as being similar to a rash. All of this is unnecessary, upsetting, and definitely not supportive or sympathetic. Perhaps you are not aware of how your comments are coming across.

Comments like these are harsh and unnecessary. There has been a consistent biting tone to some of your comments, which definitely does not read as "sympathy" to me.


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## Bisou

Xerxella said:


> Quote:
> 
> I think it's pretty clear that most people here feel that he does not have the ability to calm down when his SPD is triggered.
> I agree.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> *The same way that if one of us was crying uncontrollably from a serious trauma, we couldn't just stop crying on a dime even if someone offered us a million dollars.*
> 
> From all your posts (and I've read them all over the year) it seems that he responds better to a time away than a restraint hold. So, like you believe, the trip to the bathroom may have just been enough to help him pull himself together.
> That is correct. Restraint holds usually seem to REALLY escalate him. When I was using restraint holds consistently at the advice of my son's therapists, sometimes I would have him in restraint for hours and hours on end because he was just completely unable to calm down. It did not help him calm down. It did not teach him that there were consequences or change his behavior, even though I did it consistently EVERY time he was out of control. It really made things worse. It was only when I decided to try another approach that he showed any signs of improvement.
> 
> I think for my son, the idea that he was not going to be allowed to go to the bathroom just sent him further over the edge. I think having a moment to get away from the restraint hold and go to the bathroom so he no longer had that panicked "I am going to wet my pants!" feeling would have helped calm the situation. I think the point to teach him to calm down, not that "when you do something wrong, you will be punished no matter what you do, what you say, or what you need, or no matter how scared or upset you are"? We want him to act reasonably, and I think that being overly harsh teaches him to be unbending in return. When he feels he is listened to and respected, and I DON'T mean getting out of consequences for bad behavior, but when he feels like his voice is heard, I have found him to be much more compliant, less aggressive, and more stable.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Have you worked on some breathing techniques to help him calm down? Have him look at you and you both breathe slowly and say In through the nose out through the mouth. It's simplistic, but can be very effective for everyone.
> I have tried that with him and modeled it or asked him to do it with me, but he usually just says "I can't! I can't!" Oddly, I have a really hard time doing breathing when I am upset or anxious myself, and it often makes me feel more upset and anxious. I just try to breathe as normally as possible (not holding my breath or breathing rapidly), and that seems to work.
> 
> I am definitely going to be working with his therapist about some alternate approaches, and if we can figure something out, it may be time for a different therapist.


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## Oubliette8

Hi Bisou,
I agree with you, it sounds like your son was really very scared. I have PTSD. Sometimes, in trying to set limits or help me, my therapist inadvertently does something that REALLY triggers me. When that happens, I cant calm down or act reasonably because of the terror. That doesn't mean he stops trying to set the limit, but it does mean that once I calm down some, and he backs off, that we talk about other ways to reach the same goal that aren't so absolutely terrifying. Usually we come up with something and the issue is resolved. It isn't that I dont want to get better, its that sometimes we need to take a different approach.

I'm also a bit embarrassed to admit, that I have a nervous bladder. When I'm anxious or nervous, I have to pee, alot, about every 5 minutes. And if I get extremely scared, sometimes I wet my pants, even as an adult. Sometimes I realize its going to happen shortly before it does, but a bathroom is just not accessible for whatever reason (for instance, when I'm 30 ft up a tree, or in the middle of a haunted house). I think its entirely plausible and likely that your son really couldn't control it.

I'm relieved to hear your therapist has thought about it and wants to apologize. I think thats good for him to learn, that adults are sometimes wrong, and that they apologize.

I'm worried that she wants to start with the toys all over again. I think after a session like that, its probably best just to back off and try a new solution. What if she started the session by asking your son what would help with the toy problem? He's old enough to have some ideas, it would give him some ownership over the solution, and maybe it would solve the toy issue. And it might end the power struggle they're stuck in. I would also brain storm other solutions with her. I would assume its not practical to say he cant play with whatever toy are on the floor when he leaves next session, because she probably has lots of toys, and other kids need to use them in between. Plus, a week is a long time for a consequence. I like the special reward idea. It could be immediate (like a sticker) or long term, like keeping a chart and if he does it 5 sessions in a row, he'll get to do something cool. Bringing his own toys also seems like a fair idea. Or maybe limit his play to a small number of toys, until he proves he can pick them up, and then he gets to play with a few more. I'm sure there are many other solutions. As an adult, if I failed to do something, like picking up toys, I'd still be pretty po'd if I came back the next week and that person had strewn toys on the floor and was now insisting I pick them. I think someone else said, its now how adults have respectful relationships with each other, and I don't think its a good example for a child either. She's there to help him, hopefully compassionately. Not as an all powerful you must obey dictator.

The other thing that I think needs to be addressed is what other methods can be used to handle your son's outbursts? Obviously being restrained re-enacts the original traumas. If he's flashing back or experiencing terror due to that, a therapeutic hold is NOT going to help him calm down, and will only escalate things. I would look for other ways, ask your son, ask your therapist, and see what everyone can come up with. Has he ever acted out in public before? What did you do then? If he does it in session again, would leaving help? I'm really not sure what to suggest, but I think the therapeutic hold is probably re-traumatizing. Would he stay in a time out? What works at home? It sounds like, you don't use holds at home, and you're only agreeing to try holding him yourself because you think it would be less traumatic than her doing it- sort of like, she thinks a hold is the way to go, and instead of saying, at home, xyz works, you're just going along with her authority? I might be wrong. I just think a better plan would be to come up with inteventions that de-escalate the situation and keep him safe without triggering his PTSD.

I guess, I'd talk to her about those two issues before bringing your son back, and make sure they are resolved and you are on the same page as far as how to handle them. I think, if you start the session the same way the last (very bad) session started, your son is likely to balk. She's saying she's sorry for her reaction, but not trying to help him with whatever set hm off in the first place.


----------



## 4evermom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Restraint holds usually seem to REALLY escalate him. When I was using restraint holds consistently at the advice of my son's therapists, sometimes I would have him in restraint for hours and hours on end because he was just completely unable to calm down. It did not help him calm down. It did not teach him that there were consequences or change his behavior, even though I did it consistently EVERY time he was out of control. It really made things worse. It was only when I decided to try another approach that he showed any signs of improvement.

I think for my son, the idea that he was not going to be allowed to go to the bathroom just sent him further over the edge. I think having a moment to get away from the restraint hold and go to the bathroom so he no longer had that panicked "I am going to wet my pants!" feeling would have helped calm the situation. I think the point to teach him to calm down, not that "when you do something wrong, you will be punished no matter what you do, what you say, or what you need, or no matter how scared or upset you are"? We want him to act reasonably, and I think that being overly harsh teaches him to be unbending in return. When he feels he is listened to and respected, and I DON'T mean getting out of consequences for bad behavior, but when he feels like his voice is heard, I have found him to be much more compliant, less aggressive, and more stable.

That would have been the case with my ds! He was a handful at 4, and progressively better ever since. He probably would have been diagnosed with ODD because he could not deal with anyone being at all authoritarian or manipulative, no matter how subtly. He was very sensitive to people trying to control him.

With the peeing thing, no way could my ds have been cooperative if he needed to urinate. And he would not have realized that he needed to until too late when it seems like a manipulative thing when it is just an awful realization from his perspective. What always worked for me when ds was in attack mode was to make a beeline away from him. He'd follow me, of course, but his attention would go from trying to hit me to trying to be with me. I wouldn't say anything beyond something like "I'm going to walk over here." All the talk had been talked and he knew whatever I could say, just couldn't calm himself down, and saying things he knew tended to make him more frustrated.

I'd have had no concerns about safety letting him go when he needed to urinate because I wouldn't have sat or stood still but walked briskly to the bathroom. Trying to restrain or put a child like this in time out just feeds their anger and makes the relationship confrontational. Treating them respectfully, taking them seriously when they say something like they have to use the bathroom, builds trust. It makes them feel safe and eventually they don't get as much of a fight or flight reaction during common setbacks that don't phase other kids.


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## kalimay

I am so sorry for all that you and your little boy have been through. I feel fairly certain I would have cracked long ago.
I really liked Oubliette8's post and I would think coming up with a way for him to calm down when he cannot go to his room would be extremely important and something that would be the focus of the next session.
Also, and I feel uncomfortable saying this because you said you feel like EdnaMarie is attacking you and I don't want you to think that I am too, but I can see the perspective she is talking about. I am not talking about the past abuse that your son endured but this incidence with the therapist. It sounds like you are calling this another situation where your son was abused and he was the victim. I guess that I think for your sons sake it would be better for him to know that he was hurting his therapist and her office and she needed to keep herself safe and that is why she was holding him. It was terrifying for him and you all need to come up with a way to keep that from happening again but she was not abusing him. You keep coming back to the fact that even serial killers in prison can go to the bathroom when they need too and I don't think that is a healthy or reasonable comparison to me making.
Lastly, I don't know how you manage this without support and I understand needing to talk to someone after the session but I think calling your mother was a mistake. She blamed you and you took that on. Does she even want your son to be in therapy? I guess I feel from the rest of your dealings with her is that she is not someone I would trust to be at all helpful if I was emotionally fragile.
And again I am so sorry for what you all have been through. I am curious if you feel all of his aggressive behavior is due to the abuse or if you think there are underlying causes and he will eventually receive a diagnosis. I have a child in my life who has aspergers and his behavior when he is raging sounds very much like your son's. When he was a toddler there were some subtle signs that he had some issues. I am wondering if you noticed anything before the first abuse incident? His behavior with intervention and age has gotten much better.
I hope things continue to improve for you and your son.


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## babydanielsmom

Honestly, after reading through almost the entire thread I think that *Ednamarie* is bringing up some good points. I think if you approach her posts as an outsider looking in on your life and (NOT as your LO's mama) you may see the posts with a different point of view. I think the posts that make us feel the most defensive are sometimes the ones (when we've calmed down and can re exam them) that *CAN* have things we needed to hear. I don't have to agree with everything she posted but I think she was spot on with a lot of things. *I think you love your son with all of your heart and you're trying to find the best way to parent him*


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Hi Barbie!!!

I totally get what you are saying about me being worried about undermining the therapist's authority, and I even had that thought when I was writing the post. I guess what I was thinking is that I try not to contradict another adult and authority figure (grandparents, therapist, teacher) in front of my son because I don't want my son to think that the other person is the "bad guy" and doesn't need to be listened to, just as they say you shouldn't contradict the other parent during a discipline situation.

*However, I DO feel like I should have said, "I think I need to take my son to the bathroom and we will come back and finish the time out."* It just all happened so fast that as I was thinking it through and thinking, "I need to take him; I should say something now," he peed his pants.

You said very strongly that I shouldn't take my son back to the therapist. This is how I initially felt, but I was torn because she's been a very good support system for me until now, and we've seen her for about 2 years.

If you can, read my posting about the phone conversation I had with my son's therapist, and let me know if you still feel the same way. She has admitted that she didn't handle it as well as she could have and wishes she had let him go to the bathroom. She has promised to always let him go to the bathroom in the future. She wants to apologize to my son.

I guess I feel like maybe I should give it at least one more try to at least allow my son to hear her apology and see if we can work through this. I do want to talk to her further about whether we can modify her approach, as several people have mentioned (and I agree) that it seems odd to start a session in the same bad place that we were in at the end of a previous session after an entire week has passed. She has also agreed that we won't start in a time out next time, and this is something I wouldn't have allowed. I wouldn't have brought him back an entire week later to be put into time out.

I have not had my son's lead levels tested. I don't think we've been in a place where he is really exposed to lead, as we don't live in an older home and never have. Do you think that would still be relevant?

You've always been such a good support person for me on MDC, and thank you for that.


So many hugs mama. Lots of stuff has happened here since the last time I logged on. Im sorry your feeling attacked. Knowing you, its probably adding to your stress levels, becuase you probably take even the smallest amount from every post made to this thread.
















I actually would still consider having his lead levels tested. Just as a means to rule that out as a possibility, you know? its easy enough to do. Im actually kind surprised that his Docs have never offered to have it done. I know I should have it done, but for whatever reason we keep forgetting every time the kids have a wbv. We live in a house that has been completly redone, and their daycare has been completly redone twice. But it could end up being in places you just never would have thought of. you know?

And yes, after reading the update about the phone convo you had with the therepist, I feel better. I actually think it is crucial for her to apologize to your son for withholding bathroom rights. VERY important. I also think coming up with a "time out" technique for when hes not at home is also a good idea. Have you ever tried the breathing before? I know its no compariason because my son is only 3 and has never been traumatized as your son has (he also does not have SPD), but its a technique we have used with him when hes mad or frustrated. It seems to work and grabs his attention enough so that he can stop focusing on whats making him so mad in the moment and calm down. LOL, works for ME too.

I am one of those silver lining people (like, even mushroom clouds have em) so I would be trying to focus on what we can take from this experience and LEARN from it. 1.) your therepist will probably never pull the whole bathroom part EVER again, with any child. But also, how can we take from this experience and better our situation. I dont want to fire off stuff, cuz im not there with you.

PS, How is your son? Have you all talked about what happened?


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oubliette8* 
Hi Bisou,
I agree with you, it sounds like your son was really very scared. I have PTSD. Sometimes, in trying to set limits or help me, my therapist inadvertently does something that REALLY triggers me. When that happens, I cant calm down or act reasonably because of the terror. That doesn't mean he stops trying to set the limit, but it does mean that once I calm down some, and he backs off, that we talk about other ways to reach the same goal that aren't so absolutely terrifying. Usually we come up with something and the issue is resolved. It isn't that I dont want to get better, its that sometimes we need to take a different approach.

I'm also a bit embarrassed to admit, that I have a nervous bladder. When I'm anxious or nervous, I have to pee, alot, about every 5 minutes. And if I get extremely scared, sometimes I wet my pants, even as an adult. Sometimes I realize its going to happen shortly before it does, but a bathroom is just not accessible for whatever reason (for instance, when I'm 30 ft up a tree, or in the middle of a haunted house). I think its entirely plausible and likely that your son really couldn't control it.

I'm relieved to hear your therapist has thought about it and wants to apologize. I think thats good for him to learn, that adults are sometimes wrong, and that they apologize.

I'm worried that she wants to start with the toys all over again. I think after a session like that, its probably best just to back off and try a new solution. What if she started the session by asking your son what would help with the toy problem? He's old enough to have some ideas, it would give him some ownership over the solution, and maybe it would solve the toy issue. And it might end the power struggle they're stuck in. I would also brain storm other solutions with her. I would assume its not practical to say he cant play with whatever toy are on the floor when he leaves next session, because she probably has lots of toys, and other kids need to use them in between. Plus, a week is a long time for a consequence. I like the special reward idea. It could be immediate (like a sticker) or long term, like keeping a chart and if he does it 5 sessions in a row, he'll get to do something cool. Bringing his own toys also seems like a fair idea. Or maybe limit his play to a small number of toys, until he proves he can pick them up, and then he gets to play with a few more. I'm sure there are many other solutions. As an adult, if I failed to do something, like picking up toys, I'd still be pretty po'd if I came back the next week and that person had strewn toys on the floor and was now insisting I pick them. I think someone else said, its now how adults have respectful relationships with each other, and I don't think its a good example for a child either. She's there to help him, hopefully compassionately. Not as an all powerful you must obey dictator.

The other thing that I think needs to be addressed is what other methods can be used to handle your son's outbursts? Obviously being restrained re-enacts the original traumas. If he's flashing back or experiencing terror due to that, a therapeutic hold is NOT going to help him calm down, and will only escalate things. I would look for other ways, ask your son, ask your therapist, and see what everyone can come up with. Has he ever acted out in public before? What did you do then? If he does it in session again, would leaving help? I'm really not sure what to suggest, but I think the therapeutic hold is probably re-traumatizing. Would he stay in a time out? What works at home? It sounds like, you don't use holds at home, and you're only agreeing to try holding him yourself because you think it would be less traumatic than her doing it- sort of like, she thinks a hold is the way to go, and instead of saying, at home, xyz works, you're just going along with her authority? I might be wrong. I just think a better plan would be to come up with inteventions that de-escalate the situation and keep him safe without triggering his PTSD.

I guess, I'd talk to her about those two issues before bringing your son back, and make sure they are resolved and you are on the same page as far as how to handle them. I think, if you start the session the same way the last (very bad) session started, your son is likely to balk. She's saying she's sorry for her reaction, but not trying to help him with whatever set hm off in the first place.

I think you have some really great suggestions on many levels. It's also interesting to hear your own experiences with the PTSD and your nervous bladder. If an adult can even have these problems, how can we expect a five-year-old to cope? Thanks for sharing that.

I also agree with your comments about how upsetting it would be to have the toys strewn all over for him to pick up. My son is a pretty logical thinker and has this strong sense of justice (about what's fair and what's not), and I know that he knows SHE put the toys all over the floor, so it doesn't seem fair to him that he has to pick up the toys she threw on the ground. I think I do need to work with his therapist to find some alternate consequences. He needs to have consequences, but they have to work and be logical to be effective, I think!

I will meet with her in the morning on Wednesday when my son is in school, then take him back in the afternoon. I have to admit I am worried about how things will go! But it will be good to have a chance to talk to her before I take him back.

Thanks for your ideas!!!


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## Bisou

4evermom said:


> Quote:
> 
> That would have been the case with my ds! He was a handful at 4, and progressively better ever since. He probably would have been diagnosed with ODD because he could not deal with anyone being at all authoritarian or manipulative, no matter how subtly. He was very sensitive to people trying to control him.
> 
> With the peeing thing, no way could my ds have been cooperative if he needed to urinate. And he would not have realized that he needed to until too late when it seems like a manipulative thing when it is just an awful realization from his perspective.
> Yes, I think that had my son not gotten out of control and if he hadn't been in a restraint hold, he would have been asking to go to the potty. He usually doesn't realize he has to go until he has to go NOW. I think the panic that it caused when he realized he had to go to the bathroom made him completely and totally out of control. He said, "I have to go to the bathroom!" and his therapist just said, "Nope." Then something like, "You can wait until the time out is over, and then you can go to the bathroom." So I think he thought that she wouldn't let him go, no matter what. Also, if I really had to go to the bathroom and someone told me no, just the idea that "Oh my God, I am probably not going to make it!" would make me freak out.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> What always worked for me when ds was in attack mode was to make a beeline away from him. He'd follow me, of course, but his attention would go from trying to hit me to trying to be with me. I wouldn't say anything beyond something like "I'm going to walk over here." All the talk had been talked and he knew whatever I could say, just couldn't calm himself down, and saying things he knew tended to make him more frustrated.
> 
> I'd have had no concerns about safety letting him go when he needed to urinate because I wouldn't have sat or stood still but walked briskly to the bathroom. Trying to restrain or put a child like this in time out just feeds their anger and makes the relationship confrontational. Treating them respectfully, taking them seriously when they say something like they have to use the bathroom, builds trust. It makes them feel safe and eventually they don't get as much of a fight or flight reaction during common setbacks that don't phase other kids.
> I think with my son it would be the same, and in the past when he has been out of control and needed to go potty, he has always calmed down at least a little because he saw that I was listening to him and let him do what he needed to do.
> 
> I have thought about what I would have done if I tried to let him go to the bathroom and he was hitting, and I think I would have said, "If you want to go to the bathroom, you can NOT hit me. If you are going to try to hurt me, I can't take you to the bathroom." But honestly, based on past experience, I don't think he would have tried that. When my son feels listened to, he tends to calm down. He may have still been really angry and emotional, but I don't think he would have tried to hit.
> 
> Thanks for your post!


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## Bisou

kalimay said:


> Quote:
> 
> I am so sorry for all that you and your little boy have been through. I feel fairly certain I would have cracked long ago.
> I really liked Oubliette8's post and I would think coming up with a way for him to calm down when he cannot go to his room would be extremely important and something that would be the focus of the next session.
> Also, and I feel uncomfortable saying this because you said you feel like EdnaMarie is attacking you and I don't want you to think that I am too, but I can see the perspective she is talking about. I am not talking about the past abuse that your son endured but this incidence with the therapist. It sounds like you are calling this another situation where your son was abused and he was the victim.
> I think he was treated unfairly and that it was the wrong thing to do given his past trauma, PTSD, and SPD. However, I don't think that it's ok for him to hit and that he needs to be prevented from hitting people. I just don't think an hour of being restrained, having him pee his pants, and not allowing him to get out of the restraint until he is completely calm, including not being allowed to cry (something I didn't mention before) is reasonable. I think it would be ok to restrain him until he would no longer hit, but she was restraining him until he agreed to pick up the toys and did not cry. If I was extremely upset and had peed my pants in public, I would not be able to stop crying. I didn't probably explain all of those aspects in my earlier post. But I do want to be clear that I don't think he should have been left to just hit people and break things. I just think it could have been handled MUCH differently.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> I guess that I think for your sons sake it would be better for him to know that he was hurting his therapist and her office and she needed to keep herself safe and that is why she was holding him. It was terrifying for him and you all need to come up with a way to keep that from happening again but she was not abusing him. You keep coming back to the fact that even serial killers in prison can go to the bathroom when they need too and I don't think that is a healthy or reasonable comparison to me making.
> I think I am just making a comparison to what is considered a basic human right. To me, depriving someone of the right to go to the bathroom is the along the lines with withholding sleep, food, and water.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Lastly, I don't know how you manage this without support and I understand needing to talk to someone after the session but I think calling your mother was a mistake. She blamed you and you took that on. Does she even want your son to be in therapy? I guess I feel from the rest of your dealings with her is that she is not someone I would trust to be at all helpful if I was emotionally fragile.
> You are right. Almost every time I call my mom, I regret it. But then sometimes she is really supportive and understanding, and I do get the support I am looking for. I think they call it random reinforcement (or something like that) in psychology. I guess when I am so upset, and I was UPSET when we left the therapist's office, I need someone to talk to, and I don't have anyone else to call. Not calling someone doesn't seem like an option, but then sometimes calling her makes it worse. I wish I had a better option there.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> And again I am so sorry for what you all have been through. I am curious if you feel all of his aggressive behavior is due to the abuse or if you think there are underlying causes and he will eventually receive a diagnosis. I have a child in my life who has aspergers and his behavior when he is raging sounds very much like your son's. When he was a toddler there were some subtle signs that he had some issues. I am wondering if you noticed anything before the first abuse incident? His behavior with intervention and age has gotten much better.
> I hope things continue to improve for you and your son.
> My son has always had a difficult temperament. I think that the behaviors I noticed earlier, particularly around 12-18 months, are related to SPD. For example, he used to throw himself backwards and slam his body and head into me. He would often do this when I was lying on the bed---stand up and throw himself backwards, slamming his head into my face. Often I would be sleepy or dozing off, so I wouldn't see it coming. I am fairly sure he broke my nose at least once, as it's now crooked, and he gave me a black eye and split lip. At the time I would think, "WHY DOES MY BABY WANT TO HURT ME????? THIS MAKES NO SENSE?" Now, looking back, I can see that these are clear indications of SPD.
> 
> He doesn't have any signs of autism. Bipolar Personality Disorder was suggested at one point, but I have talked to his doctors/therapists many times since then, and they are not comfortable with that diagnosis since he doesn't fit many of the criteria. I think Sensory Processing Disorder covers a lot of what is affecting him, along with the past trauma/abuse, many moves, and having very little family. His dad has never seen him and he only has me and my parents who love him. I think all of those things are factors as well.
> 
> Also, while being very bright (especially when it comes to verbal skills and vocabulary), he also has some very noticeable weak areas, some due to SPD, and when he becomes aware of those weaknesses, he gets very upset about it. For example, he was the only kid in his kindergarten class who couldn't color or draw. He could only scribble big spots of color, like you'd see a very small child do. He has always hated coloring and drawing, so I never forced him to do it, and he immediately recognized that he was not even close to what the other kids could do once he started kindergarten. He has made GREAT improvements since he started school though and is really trying.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your post.


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## Bebe's Mom

I have been reading this thread over the last day or so, and I have to tell you that I think you are a strong, determined mother who is doing her best for her son. Your son is lucky to have you. Many parents would have effectively given up and burned out. I have no advice for you, but I would like to give you a link to this article http://www.slate.com/id/2273702/ Maybe it will help you find some answers. Good luck and stay strong.


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## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *♥Charlie's~Angel♥* 
So many hugs mama. Lots of stuff has happened here since the last time I logged on. Im sorry your feeling attacked. Knowing you, its probably adding to your stress levels, becuase you probably take even the smallest amount from every post made to this thread.
















I actually would still consider having his lead levels tested. Just as a means to rule that out as a possibility, you know? its easy enough to do. Im actually kind surprised that his Docs have never offered to have it done. I know I should have it done, but for whatever reason we keep forgetting every time the kids have a wbv. We live in a house that has been completly redone, and their daycare has been completly redone twice. But it could end up being in places you just never would have thought of. you know?

And yes, after reading the update about the phone convo you had with the therepist, I feel better. I actually think it is crucial for her to apologize to your son for withholding bathroom rights. VERY important. I also think coming up with a "time out" technique for when hes not at home is also a good idea. Have you ever tried the breathing before? I know its no compariason because my son is only 3 and has never been traumatized as your son has (he also does not have SPD), but its a technique we have used with him when hes mad or frustrated. It seems to work and grabs his attention enough so that he can stop focusing on whats making him so mad in the moment and calm down. LOL, works for ME too.

I am one of those silver lining people (like, even mushroom clouds have em) so I would be trying to focus on what we can take from this experience and LEARN from it. 1.) your therepist will probably never pull the whole bathroom part EVER again, with any child. But also, how can we take from this experience and better our situation. I dont want to fire off stuff, cuz im not there with you.

PS, How is your son? Have you all talked about what happened?

Hi Charlie's Angel~

At first I didn't know this was you. You changed your name!

I can ask his doctor about his lead levels. Perhaps it would be good to get a whole blood workup done, though I DREAD being there for that. I always hated when they did blood draws on him as a baby (for routine testing). It was awful!!!

I also agree that his therapist probably wouldn't withhold bathroom rights from a child again, or at least I would hope she wouldn't. She said she had thought about this literally for hours and hours (and we talked the day after it happened), so I think the session was upsetting for her as well. Honestly, I think my son baffles her a bit. I don't think she'd admit that, but I think she is often sure that this or that will work with him, but then it doesn't, and she seems honestly surprised. He is a combination of extremely smart and extremely stubborn, and along with his PTSD and SPD, this makes it very hard to find things that work.

I just think that God or the Universe (or whatever you believe) shouldn't be able to give a child like this to an unexperienced single mom with very little support. Honestly! This child is at least a 7 or 8 on the difficulty level (out of 1-10), and I was a novice parent raised by people with poor parenting skills. What the heck was God/the Universe thinking when he/it/they gave me this child? Sometimes I wonder how I will make it through this.

I do have to say that he is doing pretty well at school, and that was a HUGE concern for me. He says "School is AWESOME!" He is just exploding with his learning, constantly walking around sounding things out and trying to write. It's amazing what he has learned in this short time. I am very proud of him. Even though it's very hard for him to write and color, he always is excited to do his homework. He is getting along well at school, listens to his teacher, and has friends. The other kids seem to genuinely like him. I was worried about ALL of this. I was worried that I would be getting calls and he would be having major problems. But this is not the case. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for your post. I am going to miss calling you Barbie. . . . . Charlie? Angel?


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bebe's Mom* 
I have been reading this thread over the last day or so, and I have to tell you that I think you are a strong, determined mother who is doing her best for her son. Your son is lucky to have you. Many parents would have effectively given up and burned out. I have no advice for you, but I would like to give you a link to this article http://www.slate.com/id/2273702/ Maybe it will help you find some answers. Good luck and stay strong.

Wow, Bebe's Mom. GREAT article. This is right in line with a lot of my thinking, and I swear, I have almost every book mentioned! My bookcase is somewhat embarrassing, and I always wonder what people will think of me and my son when they come over and see about 30 books about parenting "difficult," "explosive," "defiant," and "out of control" children. I hate the titles of most of those books! (Embarrassing to read while in public too!)

The article talks about the shortage of mental health professionals for children and the tendency to just prescribe meds because it's the easy thing for insurance companies to do. I am noticing this with our insurance company too. They have told me that seeing a therapist every 1-2 months is the best they can do, and when I say I'd like to see someone weekly, they say, "Well, we can get you on meds." I don't WANT to be on meds. I just need help managing my stress and making plans to improve my life and deal with things.

Also, people mentioned getting a different therapist for my son, but he was referred to this outside provider because my insurance company didn't really have therapists for kids, just psychiatrists to prescribe meds. She had a huge waiting list. At this point, my insurance co isn't even giving outside referrals, so I think that could mean my son would be without therapy. What they have is very limited.

I want to make clear that I am in NO WAY disparaging those of you who medicate your kids. That is your child and your decision, and I know most of you did not make that decision lightly. MDC parents are on the whole pretty thoughtful.

I just see this scary trend in ALL of mental health right now, for adults and kids. It's cheaper and easier for them to prescribe meds than to offer counseling and various therapies. My son's therapist charges $150 per session. His occupational therapy is about that, or even more. I am lucky we have access to what we do have!

I might think my son has BPD except that he is doing so much better and doesn't show all of the signs of BPD. I think that it's hard to distinguish the difference between his personality and SPD combined with the trauma from a mental disorder, but I think time will tell. Right now, I feel like he's very slowly improving.

Thanks for the post and article suggestion!


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## Bisou

There is also a great discussion about this issue following that Salon.com article (link above). Very interesting points being made!


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## Bebe's Mom

I am glad you got something out of the article. What popped out at me was the fact that there are no studies on long term effects of using drugs on children. Also, it is inferred that psychiatric pediatric medicine is a very young field-not many studies have been done on pediatric mental illnesses, and I think many professionals rely on meds because they don't have the answers. It is possible that your son could have a multiple diagnosis, in which case meds may/may not help. Have you considered that he may have a sleeping disorder? I saw in one of your posts that he does not sleep well. My husband has sleep apnea, and I know from first hand experience that lack of sleep causes irrational rage. It may be a good idea to have a sleep study done. My DH used to fly off the handle at the smallest things, but since he was diagnosed and started using a CPAP, he has become much less inclined to go into a rage about nothing. I truly believe that sleep apnea profoundly affects the brain, since my FIL also has it, and he also has a short fuse, much shorter than my husband's, which I believe is due to going decades without sleep. I think that it is worth looking into anyway. I get the feeling from your posts that you are not satisfied with any of the possible Dx's you have been given, and I think your mother's instinct is that you have not hit on the right answer yet. Keep looking.


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## Bisou

Bebe's Mom:

This is exactly why I have been really unwilling to give my son meds. So far, no one has been willing to diagnose my son with anything (except PTSD and SPD, and there are no meds for SPD). They just basically say, well, his behavior is not good, we don't know what's wrong with him, but we can try different meds and see if something will work. I am sorry docs, but I am not ok with my son's brain being a science experiment.

If someone could say, "Your son has x, and this is the treatment for x, and here are the studies showing that this treatment is highly effective for x," then I would probably really consider it. But when someone is saying, "Well, we don't know what's wrong with your son, but let's try these medications just to see if something works," that doesn't work for me. It's like giving my kid insulin to see if it just might help with some of the health problems he's having. You don't want to medicate a child when you don't even know what you're medicating for, at least in my opinion. Also, while things are FAR from perfect, I have seen an improvement in his behavior overall, so that makes me feel like maybe I am making some good choices for him. My son has just been hit with one trauma after another since he was just two. We've had something really serious every 6 months to a year, and I feel like he just hasn't been able to feel safe or settled and he's really felt like life is just one big life-threatening emergency. I feel like I am just now able to give him a little stability and possibly help him feel more calm and safe.

The sleep problems were trauma-related, I think, because we had an attempted break-in about a year ago, and this caused most of his sleep problems. We have moved twice (first as a result of the break in, then because our rental got foreclosed) and I think that also made it hard for him to feel comfortable sleeping. He is just now settling in that regard and has been sleeping pretty well the last month or two.

Thanks for the suggestions. Really helpful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bebe's Mom* 
I am glad you got something out of the article. What popped out at me was the fact that there are no studies on long term effects of using drugs on children. Also, it is inferred that psychiatric pediatric medicine is a very young field-not many studies have been done on pediatric mental illnesses, and I think many professionals rely on meds because they don't have the answers. It is possible that your son could have a multiple diagnosis, in which case meds may/may not help. Have you considered that he may have a sleeping disorder? I saw in one of your posts that he does not sleep well. My husband has sleep apnea, and I know from first hand experience that lack of sleep causes irrational rage. It may be a good idea to have a sleep study done. My DH used to fly off the handle at the smallest things, but since he was diagnosed and started using a CPAP, he has become much less inclined to go into a rage about nothing. I truly believe that sleep apnea profoundly affects the brain, since my FIL also has it, and he also has a short fuse, much shorter than my husband's, which I believe is due to going decades without sleep. I think that it is worth looking into anyway. I get the feeling from your posts that you are not satisfied with any of the possible Dx's you have been given, and I think your mother's instinct is that you have not hit on the right answer yet. Keep looking.


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## Oubliette8

Have you read Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic" ? A really great book on psych meds. There's a big section about psych meds and children in it too.


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## Bisou

I haven't read that. I will have to check it out!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
I just think that God or the Universe (or whatever you believe) shouldn't be able to give a child like this to an unexperienced single mom with very little support. Honestly! This child is at least a 7 or 8 on the difficulty level (out of 1-10), and I was a novice parent raised by people with poor parenting skills. What the heck was God/the Universe thinking when he/it/they gave me this child? Sometimes I wonder how I will make it through this.

God gave you THIS child, but he also gave this child YOU. Can you immagine if your son had been born to someone without your perserveriance or understanding of what it meant to be "disciplined" as your parents did to you? Can you immagine if YOUR SON were born to YOUR PARENTS?







frightening thought, isnt it? They probably would have beat the spark right out of him, or worse, put him in an institution or home for boys because "he was to hard to handle". The thought makes me seriously ill.

No, your son was absolutly born to you for a reason. Because YOU give him everything he needs, and no one else could love him more. Or more unconditionally. He NEEDS YOU. And the unniverse knew that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bisou* 
Thanks for your post. I am going to miss calling you Barbie. . . . . Charlie? Angel?









You can still call me Barbie. Althought Barbie is FAR from what I am. lol Gina works too.


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## Bisou

Hi Gina/Barbie/Charlie/Angel~

Thanks for the post. Supportive as always.

I HAVE thought about what my son's life might have been like if he had different parents. I am sure it could be much worse for him. But I also tend to be VERY hard on myself and think "I need to be more patient, more calm, more understanding, more fun, more engaged," etc etc etc.

My son is just such a tough combo of smart, stubborn, passionate, and emotional. The thing is that he could be an amazing adult if he directed those strengths appropriately, or he could be a real mess. That really frightens me at times. Of course all parents want their kids to be happy and successful (however you define success).

Now for some good news! We went back to the therapist today, and it went GREAT! We almost couldn't have had a more perfect time. I saw her this morning by myself and I talked about all of my concerns. It has been really helpful to chat with you all about this because I was able to discuss everything with her, like how she was having a consequence a week after the negative behavior (putting the toys out for him to pick up because he wouldn't pick them up at last therapy session), how he might think it was unfair because he knows that she put the toys on the floor (and he was baffled about why he was being held responsible for the mess SHE made) so that maybe that wasn't the best logical consequence for him, and how the restraint hold might trigger his PTSD and aggravate his SPD. She agreed with pretty much every observation I made. I actually think that working with my son is going to be extremely helpful for her because I think she's seeing some things she's never worked with before, at least not exactly like this, and things that worked with other kids don't work with my son. I think it's giving her a new perspective. She seems very thoughtful, reflective, and open to discussion. She said she was very pleased that I was so willing to discuss things with her. It was a very positive meeting.

We then talked about how we would conduct the session with my son later in the day. She said we would avoid a restraint hold unless it was absolutely necessary, and I agreed with that. She said she wanted to begin by talking about what happened, to apologize to my son, and solicit his ideas about how we could deal with this problem of picking up the toys.

This is exactly what we did. We sat down and talked about last week. She apologized to him for the peeing the pants incident and said that she didn't really think he needed to go to the bathroom that bad, that she was wrong, and she was sorry that he wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom. She said she realized that was really upsetting for him and that next time she would allow him to go to the bathroom. He nodded his head and seemed to really relax.

He was asking a lot of questions about the toys because she didn't have the toys out on the floor, as she had earlier planned. She didn't want to start out in a confrontational way, which I was SOOOOO relieved about, even though I had prepared my son for this possibility.

We then got on the carpet and my son actually wanted to clean up the toys, so we dumped them out and cleaned up. Then I really praised him and told him I was so proud of him and he had a huge smile on his face. His therapist did the same and gave him a high five. It was such a relief.

He then asked to get out the boxing gloves and pads that she has in her office, and he just wailed on those for about 40 minutes. It wasn't really an angry thing as he was smiling and laughing throughout, but I think he really needed to diffuse some anxiety and maybe a little buried anger. I think he was so nervous about the session and was just so relieved that things went better than he expected.

He totally cleaned up toys every time he was done playing with them and was so great about it! It was just awesome! I was SO proud of him.

Now I know some people are going to think or maybe say that the reason he acted this way was because she was so harsh with him last week, but I don't think that's the case. I think it was because he felt understood, because his emotions were validated, and because there was warmth and caring. Honestly, I think the therapist and I did a great job supporting him through this session and helping him be successful.

When my son feels listened to, he is WAY more likely to be cooperative. I have noticed this in my discipline interactions with him. Sometimes I am just angry at whatever behavior and I am telling him to go to his room, or whatever, and he will be trying to talk, and maybe I am saying something like, "I don't want to hear it. I just want you to go to your room RIGHT NOW." This will often escalate his anger and frustration. But if I let him say what he wants to say, I find it's much easier to then continue with the discipline. It's not like I hear what he has to say and then let him out of the consequences. I might say, "Well, I am sorry to hear that Tomas was mean to you at school today. What he did wasn't nice. But that doesn't mean you can yell at mommy and throw toys. I know you are upset, but it's not Mommy's fault that Tomas was mean. Does it make sense to be mean to Mommy?" and we will talk as I move him into a time out.

I do wish there was a magical "patience pill" that I could take. I have been trying to really disconnect (trying to keep a calm distance from my emotions--anger, disappointment, frustration, exhaustion, etc) when he is out of control, to not let my own emotions get the best of me, and I've been doing a pretty good job for the past few days. Right now I feel like keeping myself calm is one of the most important things I can do for my son. It definitely doesn't help things when I lose it and yell back at him, which has happened more times than I'd like to admit. How can I expect him to have the appropriate behavior when I can't keep it together? I have to be the calm inside his storm, as hard as that is!!!!! Right now it seems like sitting on the couch and reading a book or magazine, even if I am just basically faking it, helps both of us calm down. I remove myself from the confrontation. If he is hurting people, animals, or property, I intervene, of course. But if he's just pissed and ranting and raving, I am trying to just ignore. What usually happens is that he comes to me and will stand by my side and I will hear this very quiet, "Mommy? I am sorry," or "Mommy, is it ok if I come out of my room now?"

I need to focus on the positives and note how he HAS really changed for the better. He IS changing for the better. I will hold onto that, and I will believe in him. I have to find a way to keep building him up because sometimes, with my frustration and anger, I tear him down with words like "You NEVER do a good job brushing your teeth. We are late for school EVERY DAY and I am SICK of it! You need to listen to me better! We are NOT going to be having these fights every day!" I need to just muzzle myself and shut up. When I am angry and frustrated, I need to be quiet. He's a very sensitive, emotionally fragile little guy, and he really needs to be built up. He is really so very precious.

Anyway, that's enough from me. This new site is . . . . . different. I can't get the smilies to work. Bummer. It takes up the whole screen and doesn't allow me to scroll down or select one. Maybe it's my browser.

Hope you are all well. I am glad to share a happy report!


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## OGirlieMama

I am crying reading your positive update. I am so happy to hear that things went well with the therapist and that your son is feeling good about everything there, too. I hope even better days are ahead for both of you.


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## NellieKatz

Regarding your story, quoted below:

I am very happy that it turned out well for your son, and that it benefited him. But to be honest, when I read what you said to him, I thought "uh-oh, here comes trouble..." because I've learned a new approach that involved actually acknowledging that you hear what the child is trying to say. When I don't do this, my son can get VERY angry too.

I would have done it this way:

The other little boy said, "You hurt me!" and my son said, "Well, you were in my way!" and started to get angry back at him.

So I said to my son, acknowledging: "You didn't mean to hurt him; it was an accident."

And my son angrily said: "He was in my way!"

And then I turned to the little boy: "I'm sorry my son accidentally kicked you. Are you OK?" (modeling courtesy and concern, so your son can see how it's done)

And then I turned back to my son: "It's nice to say Sorry when you hurt somebody, even when it's by accident."

and then continued on about our business. I would have done it this way because it was without judgement, and it was without denying my son's feelings. (he likely felt unjustly accused, and a bit defensive)

But like I said, I am glad it worked out for your son in that instance. But he has been through so very much, he probably has very much that he wants to express, and he probably wants to be accepted, regardless of how messy and inconvenient (or totally socially unacceptable) his emotions/actions might be. I would recommend the book "Between Parent and Child" by Haim Ginott. It really sheds light on how we can communicate with our kids in a way that really helps them to feel heard, which in turn enables them to find their way to better behavior.

Best of luck. This is an amazing, long, thread and I am trying to wade my way through all of it. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Yesterday when we were at the park, my son accidentally kicked another child in the face because my son was climbing on top of a tube that the other child was climbing through (if that makes sense). The other little boy said, "You hurt me!" and my son said, "Well, you were in my way!" and started to get angry back at him. I gently pulled him aside and whispered in his ear, "You should apologize that you hurt him even if it was an accident." He said, "But it was an accident! And he was in my way!" I said, "I know it was an accident, but it doesn't matter. You still hurt him. You should say sorry."


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## Bisou

Thanks Girlie, for your post! It's nice to be able to share positive stuff.


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## Oubliette8

So glad to read the positive update!


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## Bisou

Hi Nellie:

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. I appreciate it!

Bisou


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## Bisou

Ok, so I have really been struggling for the last hour about whether I should post here.

Warning, I think this is the longest post ever. . . . . .

*My son had a HORRIBLE night tonight. Really bad. Like a 9-10 on the scale of badness. *

And I really want to post about it because MDC has been one of my only sources of support. *But I am feeling . . . . .*



*Embarrassed since I just wrote a post about how wonderful he was doing* (which was true at the time!).

*Like I don't want to disappoint people who are rooting for us.* Silly I know, but I am just going to admit it.

*Scared that I will be attacked for not putting him on medication or not doing this or that right.* Most of you are great and supportive, but what I am going through with my son is so depressing, scary, and isolating, and honestly, life-destroying at times, that I just can't take criticism. I just can't. I am doing the absolute best I can do, given the circumstances.

That said, I am going to post anyway. I need too. I need to vent, and I also need to be honest. I know I have learned a lot from other moms on MDC. Maybe some other moms can learn something from my posts (even if it's just what NOT to do!) or at least feel like they aren't alone. That's one of the big reasons I post here: so I feel less alone. 'Cause believe me, I feel VERY alone most of the time.

Ok, I am going to give you a way too long back story so you can understand the full scope of my day. Please bear with me.

So the day started out bad, or actually last night started everything off bad because I have a problem with my HOA and I just found out it's going to be getting much worse. In May, I bought my first ever place, which was a big deal for me because I am a single mom, and I don't get child support, so I am doing this all on my own: physically, emotionally, and financially. One of my big must-haves for our home was hardwood or laminate floors so I wouldn't have to deal with being upset because my son just spilled his spaghetti on the carpet or knocked over a container of paint. It just takes a huge weight off my shoulders to not have carpet. (Not to mention that puke + carpet = soooooo disgusting!) I just really don't like carpet in living areas. It seriously bothers me!

I will try to NOT be my usual wordy self, but continue on to explain that when I looked at our current place, it was part hardwood and part carpet in the living area. I asked if the hardwoods could be extended, and they (the builder/owner/agent) said yes. It was a new unit, never lived in, and I was purchasing it from the builder and real estate agent, who were both partners and built these condos together. I figured that since they were the developers/owners/agent/builder, they knew what was ok and what wasn't. I didn't even question this at all as they told me they had done this in other condos in the building. I thought it was just like an upgrade, an option that was available to me as a purchaser of a new unit.

So I bought the place, the hardwood floors were installed before we moved in, and I was happy as a clam. I bought my place, all by myself, it was brand new, beautiful, and I got to do the very adult thing of picking out my own hardwood floors and having them put in. I was on cloud nine, and honestly, it was the happiest I have been in a LONG time. I was so proud of myself and happy to provide my son and I a beautiful house that met our needs.

Two weeks later I got a notification from the HOA that I wasn't allowed to make modifications without permission and that I needed to rip out the hardwood floors (that cost $5,000---a huge amount of money for me!) and put carpet back in. I had even mentioned to people on the HOA board that I was going to install the new floors (just in casual conversation, not knowing this was a violation of the by-laws to do this without permission) and they didn't even say anything to me!

What happened was that the owners of the unit below had renters who were smoking and having parties, but my unit had been vacant, so nobody cared. Well, the smoke was terrible and coming into my unit, so I was complaining. I wasn't able to open the windows or use the A/C, and I am on the 4th floor (Hot!). The renters moved out, the owner was mad, and the renter and/or owner said it was because I was too noisy, then found this rule in the by-law that said I needed permission for improvements of any kind. I am 90% sure that the renter moved out because he was told not to smoke and the owners wanted to make me pay.

The HOA are being huge jerks, yelling at me, refusing to schedule meetings I am required to attend at a time when I can get childcare, and just being awful. I finally ended up talking to the owners of the unit below, and when they realized the seller/builder/agent told me I could install the floors (in order to sell the unit, I am sure), they suddenly saw things differently and said I was a victim and they wanted to work together with me so we could reduce the noise and I could keep the floors through doing something like installing sound proofing in their ceiling. It sounded great to me. They had had lots of problems with the sellers/builder/agent being unethical and flat out lying about things, so they were sympathetic to my situation and realized I was in a bad situation that really wasn't my fault.

Well, then the owners of the unit below didn't talk to me for a month or return my calls. I was emailing and trying to see if I could help find a noise abatement or sound proofing company to help us. The owners live in California and the condo is in Oregon.

To conclude my long story, last night at about midnight I got an email saying that they were no longer interested in doing anything to their unit to deal with the noise problem. Of course I realize none of this is their fault, but by deciding not to help me out, this means the HOA will order me to remove the floors (loss of $5,000 plus whatever labor it will take to remove them) and have new carpet put in (whatever that will cost). This means I will be dealing with a dining table on carpet and a messy child and cat on carpet. I know this might not seem like a big deal to some, but it's VERY upsetting to me, as this was really my dream home at this point in time. I wouldn't have bought this unit had I known I could not have hardwood floors. It's so crazy that many others have hardwood floors and I can't have them, but they were installed before the HOA was in power.

In addition to the financial aspect, which is HUGE for me (I have no savings, for one, and live paycheck to paycheck), I will also have to deal with the mess of removing the floors (where will my furniture go during this time? I have a tiny place), the upset to myself and my son (we're both very sensitive to our environment), and I have also had to deal with people who are just being flat out cruel. My son is the only child in the building, and honestly, I think they want us out. They've been completely unwilling to compromise or be at all reasonable.

So now I am looking into getting a lawyer to see if I should fight the HOA on ripping the floors out, or if I have to do that, go after the seller/builder/agent for basically lying to me to sell me this unit to at least get my $5,000 back, plus cost of new carpet, plus damages, if they do such a thing! It's such a huge pain. I can't sell, move, or rent the place for three years because I would have to pay back my $8,000 tax credit for first time home buyers. I am worried about potential legal costs, because again, I have no savings. How will I pay for this? I don't know.

So after getting this email, I cried for hours. I know it seems dumb to some people -- it's just a floor -- but I just never have anything go right for me, and this was the one really happy, exciting, "I can't believe I did this!" things. And now I will possibly not be able to have the one thing I most wanted: hardwood floors. And I can't get out of this for at least three years.

*Sooooooooooo, that's the context for today. * I woke up today and was just completely depressed. I was weepy. I am sure this wasn't good for my son. But after a little while, I snapped out of it and got myself out of my funk, as much as I could. I stopped being weepy and I was interacting with my son, joking with him, playing.

He was pretty calm in the morning. We were hanging out. Things were good. And he started having tantrums because he was frustrated about his toys not cooperating. He would say, "DAMN IT!" and just start bashing stuff. And I was saying, "Wait! Wait! It's ok. Ask Mommy for help! Don't break your toys!" and sometimes I was holding onto his arms to prevent him from breaking things. This continued and escalated, so I started doing time outs because he was damaging everything. It just kept getting worse and worse, but I stayed calm. I did not scream. I did not jerk him around. I talked calmly, I carried or gently pushed him to his room, and then I went and sat down and read a magazine or just laid on the couch and pretended like nothing was going on.

He was just SOOOO moody and irritable today. For example, I gave him some food, and he was going to carry his plate to the table, but he dropped it on the floor and just immediately began screaming and crying when I could easily replace his food. It wasn't like I yelled at him or this was the last of the food so he couldn't have any more. I said, "You don't need to be so upset. Mommy can get you some more! It's ok!" The whole day was like this with just extreme reactions, tantrums, frustration, anger, yelling, breaking things. It was HARD. But I did a good job staying calm and trying to work him through it.

Then around 4:00 or so, my parents came to get my son for the night so I could work. I do a lot of work on the weekends (grading papers), so my parents usually have my son at least overnight. Sometimes they have him Friday and Saturday night and bring him back Sunday, but usually it's about 24 hours. We've been doing this for a long time, and usually he does pretty well.

At that point, my son had been relaxed for a few hours, and we were lying on the couch watching a movie. I felt like we had weathered the storm. He was pretty calm and we were having a nice time together.

My parents entered and my son was fine. We all watched the movie for a little bit, then we were going to get food. My son didn't want to go anywhere to eat, so I decided to go with my dad and pick up some Thai food and bring it back. My mom stayed and played with my son. Everything was great.

I was looking forward to having some company, even somewhat lame company (my parents), because I was feeling lonely and sad. My mom had been very sympathetic about the floor thing and the HOA mess, so that made me feel better, and I wanted to be consoled. My mom was in a helpful mood, which she has from time to time. (It's kind of like one of those psychological experiments they did with rats: you don't know whether you're getting the sugar water or an electric shock, but since the sugar water is so awesome when it's there, you just keep on trying. Ouch! Yum. Yum. Yum. OUCH! OUCH!) It was feeling good to be with my consoling mom, my son was being calm, happy, and relaxed, and my dad was just being his normal self.

We came back with our Thai food and sat down to eat. Again, my son was happy, relaxed, content. He asked for a piece of bread my dad had, and my dad gave it to him. (Side note: Has anyone ever received toast with their Thai food? What was that???)

*This is where all hell broke loose.* My son dropped the bread on the floor, and I said, "Oh no! That's too bad," or something like that, and threw it in the garbage. It had dirt and cat hair on it, so it wasn't salvageable.

My son got this look on his face, then grabbed the spring roll on his plate and just smashed it. Then, in an instant, he got on his knees and just swept across the table with his arm, knocking over my huge drink and our bowls of food. He's never done anything like that before. He just blew up into a complete rage! As soon as my drink went over, I grabbed him, lifted him up, and put him on the floor while still restraining his arms. My parents then came and took control of him while I tried to contain the mess. My son was COMPLETELY enraged. Kicking, screaming, biting, head butting, pinching, scratching. He pulled out all the stops. I went over to help. My mom was trying to be all sympathetic with him, and my dad was initially, but then got mad. He was so out of control that I wanted to hold onto him in a chair. Since he is so out of control when I have tried to restrain him with my body, what my mom and I ended up doing is sitting him in a dining chair and standing behind him, holding onto his arms. This way I can keep further away from him and can avoid head butting, and it just seems less confrontational for both of us.

From there, I can't even tell you exactly how things progressed, but here's a description of the various horrible-ness that happened. (Yes, I am making up words.)

My son did not calm down, no matter what we tried. My mom tried reasoning with him. No go. I could have told her that wouldn't work when he was in that state. My dad got very angry, threatened to spank him (which I wouldn't have allowed), and held onto him very tightly. I even lost my temper and yelled at him, but even in my yelling, at least I was saying reasonable things like, "YOU CANNOT HURT US. I AM GOING TO HOLD ONTO YOU UNTIL YOU STOP HURTING US. YOU NEED TO STOP!"

He was saying lovely things to us, my dad and I in particular, like "DIE! DIE! DIE! DIE TODAY!!!!!!! I WANT YOU TO DIE! IF I HAD A GUN RIGHT NOW, GRANDPA, I'D SHOOT YOU." Horrific things. It really upset my dad. I know kids say awful things to their parents ("I hate you. I don't ever want to see you again! You're the worst mom ever!") but I don't know if that kind of thing is normal. And no, I don't let him watch violent movies, shows, or play video games. I don't let him have toy guns. I have been very strict about keeping him away from violence.

He kept somehow talking my dad or mom into letting him go, then he would immediately start trying to hurt us and break things. I was saying, "You cannot let him go!" My son picked up a small, but heavy metal chair and hurled it at my head. Thankfully it missed. When trying to get him back into his seat, he grabbed onto both of my nipples with both hands (through my t-shirt), twisted them as hard as he could, then yanked them so hard I thought they would rip off. IT HURT. Then he laughed. "I don't care," he said. Honestly, I felt like he was demon possessed! I don't even believe in that, but he was just a monster.

Sadly, just yesterday he made me this beautiful picture of the two of us in a car, driving through a galaxy of hearts. He tried to write on the picture, "The World with My Mom's Love." I was so touched. It was just awesome. That was just yesterday and now this today. Wonderful lovey fuzzy feelings yesterday, and in hell with my demon child today.

My mom was just sobbing. My dad was yelling at my mom to "Stop!" It was just pandemonium. But really, I don't think it was so much that we handled it badly (not that we handled it well), but that my son was creating SUCH chaos. It was just insane. He locked himself into his bedroom. He ripped the metal door handle off his door and hucked it at me. He locked himself into the bathroom. He tore up all his pictures he had made for me while locked in his bedroom. He grabbed my dad's hat and ran to the balcony and tried to throw it off. It was just crazy.

I am NOT a fan of restraint holds, but I think I just needed to sit my son in the chair and hold him there for a while. My parents have always hated the restraints, and I do too, but when he has this level of aggression and inability to calm down, there is really no other option. I don't think that he needs to stay like that until he's completely calm, but just calm enough to not hit and hurt us and break things. They just kept letting him go, and as soon as they would let me go, he was throwing a chair at my head, and I would be saying "No! Do not let him go!" This was the most out of control I have seen him in recent months. It was just insanity.

It was so awful because my parents always blame me when he's like this and get mad at me. I was having a bad day anyway and was just hoping for some company and something to take my mind off my problems. Then I just had much worse problems. I also hate when this kind of thing happens when he's leaving me, because I hate leaving him on a bad note.

After who knows how long (maybe 1-2 hours?), he eventually started calming down. I tried to talk to him about what he was feeling, why he was upset. I asked him if he was upset because he didn't want to leave me. No. I asked him if he was upset with me, Grandma, Grandpa. No. I asked him if there were problems at school. He said yes, but he didn't want to talk about it. I tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't open up. It scares me because every time he's acted this bad in the past, there was something going on (abuse at his daycare, which happened at two different places). I am so scared that there's something awful going on, but he doesn't want to tell me. But I don't want to put ideas into his head either.

The other thing he did today was make a name tag for himself that he said (he's just learning to write, so often it's just a few letters) read "Hi, my name is My Mom Hates Me." Then he put it on his shirt. I told him that is not true and took it off. I told him I love him and gave him a big hug. He has also been saying "You hate me. You always call me stupid and ugly and say you hate me." I have NEVER called him stupid, or ugly, or said I hated him. NEVER. Not once. I have said some things I regret. I've called him a jerk and a brat. I've threatened to call the police at my most desperate moments. But I have always told him multiple times per day that I love him. I always tell him he's so cute, beautiful, adorable. I always tell him he is so smart. I always compliment him. I will never tell him I hate him or don't love him. My parents said that to me, and I am NOT saying that to my child.

Oh, another "great" thing my mom said tonight is that "if he doesn't get better, when he's older he will just have to be in an institution." I said, "The only way that would happen is if I am dead." Now, if my son was trying to kill me or others, PLEASE GOD DON'T LET US EVER GET TO THAT POINT, I would have to consider some drastic means. But no way would I put my son there unless there was absolutely no other option!!!! I am not sure I would survive that emotionally though. I try to be so optimistic about my son, and he shows such great love and compassion at times, but at other times, he can just be cruel and cold. That has been very rare lately. But tonight it was just hideous.

I just feel embarrassed even sharing this, like people are going to say, "WHEN IS SHE GOING TO GET A CLUE? IT'S JUST THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER!" Please don't. I am trying my best to figure this out.

Tonight even my parents said, "I don't know. Maybe he needs medication." They have always been completely opposed to that, as am I, but it would be nice if they would just say, "He needs help, and whatever you need to do to get him help, we support you. If that means medication, we support you."

Maybe he does. I don't know. I have been fighting it myself as I know it's by no means a magic bullet.

It's just so hard because he does so much better, but then he's so much worse. Some people have mentioned Bipolar PD, but I don't see him having depressive states, though the "My mom hates me" stuff is definitely on the depressed side. He's never really shown a depressed side before. It was always either fine or out of control anger.

Also, if a child is bipolar, can he really hold it together at school and be totally fine but then be like this at home? His doc and therapist don't seem to think he is bipolar, and I've looked up the description of BPD in kids (I know it's different than with adults) and he only fits some of the symptoms.

*One thing to mention, I did let him have some Halloween candy today, something I never let him have. * He only has candy when I cut his hair (the only bribe that would work), and then it's organic candy with no artificial anything. *Do you think the artificial colors in the candy could've triggered something like this?* I never let him have artificial colors. We eat mainly organic, whole foods. He doesn't have soda, candy, chips, etc. However, I don't want him to be completely banned from all childhood experiences, so I allow things only on rare occasions. Maybe I need to instate an "absolutely no artificial coloring" rule.

I don't know. I just feel completely like crap. For some reason, I feel like a fake because I posted that great post about how he was doing, and now this. But they are both completely true. That's what makes this all so confusing. I don't know what's right for him.

I am soooooo exhausted. Physically, emotionally, mentally. And I have almost 100 student essays to grade this weekend. I don't know what I am going to do. Life really sucks right now.


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## Bisou

Hi Heidi:

I have thought about making dietary changes, and this seems similar in some ways to something like Feingold. My main concern is that we are strict ethical vegetarians (I have been a vegetarian for 22 years), so it could be hard for him to get protein. He does eat eggs. It looks like cheese is allowed, but other than that he would be eating only fruits and vegetables. That might be tough to live off of cheese, eggs, fruits, and vegetables ONLY.

I know some people have found this sort of dietary change very helpful for themselves and/or their kids. I am thinking maybe I should start experimenting with removing some things from his diet, like wheat/gluten, to see if I see any changes.

It's hard to sort out what is going on with him. Thanks for the posting!


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## marinak1977

Bisou,







I was so sad to read your last post. You both have it so tough.  I'm not an expert at all, but I get a gut feeling that he is very tuned into you and he was picking up that you were stressed. I'm sure there is more to what triggered his behaviours that day but it's possible that they were exaggerated because he knew you were stressed as well. He is a very sensitive guy and is easy to go over the edge. I hope things will get better and more stable as he learns coping strategies. Glad that your session with the therapist went well, hopefully that day was just a setback on the way to getting better. :hug I'm hoping for peace and harmony for both of you.


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## Bisou

Does anyone have a list of foods that are prohibited on the Feingold Diet? Maybe that would be a good starting place!

Does anyone have stories of their child completely flipping out after having something with food coloring, like candy?


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## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marinak1977*
> 
> Bisou,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was so sad to read your last post. You both have it so tough.  I'm not an expert at all, but I get a gut feeling that he is very tuned into you and he was picking up that you were stressed. I'm sure there is more to what triggered his behaviours that day but it's possible that they were exaggerated because he knew you were stressed as well. He is a very sensitive guy and is easy to go over the edge. I hope things will get better and more stable as he learns coping strategies. Glad that your session with the therapist went well, hopefully that day was just a setback on the way to getting better. :hug I'm hoping for peace and harmony for both of you.


Hi Marinak:

*I totally agree with you that my stressed out and sad mood could have really triggered him.* He is VERY in tune with me. I guess what was weird was that he had been so relaxed for hours before my parents arrived, but it's very possible that he was worried about me and worried about leaving me to go to my parents' house because he knew I was upset.

I just worry about him because I am constantly unsure about whether I am doing the right thing for him, at least with some things. I worry about what life could be like for us if I can't help him get this under control in the next couple of years. If he's 8 or 10 and being aggressive, that will not be good. I am only 5'2" and he's already more than half my size. I guess I should just cross each bridge as I come to it instead of worrying about the future, but I also know what I do now can affect his future, for better or worse.

One of my biggest goals right now is to find some super-human way to stay calm when he's out of control, but at times it seems nearly impossible.

Thanks for your post!


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## wytchywoman

Even if you can't weed out gluten, definitly try weeding out cows milk and food coloring. There have been a lot of studies that explore cows milk and inflamation, plus there are so many tasty cows milk options out there. Try almond milk, it's super yummy and will give him some extra protein. My older son definitely would freak out when he consumed food coloring. It wasn't that he was perfect when he didn't have it, but there was a very noticeable difference when he ate something with food coloring and HFCS in it. So yeah, could last night have been caused by food coloring? Absolutely it could. I've even heard one of my ds2's dr's say that they have treated kids who have to avoid food coloring like the plague because it sets them off soooooooo badly.

Wanted to add a question, do you think there was MSG in the take-out food? I know it's a common additive in Chinese food, wondering if it could be in the Thai food as well. MSG is another food additive that can cause gigantic behavioral issues as well.


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## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wytchywoman*
> 
> Even if you can't weed out gluten, definitly try weeding out cows milk and food coloring. There have been a lot of studies that explore cows milk and inflamation, plus there are so many tasty cows milk options out there. Try almond milk, it's super yummy and will give him some extra protein. My older son definitely would freak out when he consumed food coloring. It wasn't that he was perfect when he didn't have it, but there was a very noticeable difference when he ate something with food coloring and HFCS in it.


Wytchy:

Do you have a good almond milk suggestion? We use soy, but I know that lots of people have problems with soy. I am not that picky at all, but I tried an almond milk brand and I couldn't even drink it. Yucky. Rice milk is ok but high in sugar and has no protein (or at least a lot less than I would like).

Aside from the occasional (1-2 per year) treat, he doesn't have food coloring as almost everything we eat is organic or a natural health-foody brand.

Do you exclude cheese as well? I was looking at Feingold and some of the others and they said that fermented dairy (yogurt and cheese) were ok since it broke down the milk proteins.

Honestly, I have never seen any signs that he has any food issues as usually he'd be better when he eats and does well until the next time he's hungry. But I just did some more research on food dye and found that depending on the amount of dye, in some cases as high as 80-90% of kids had clear behavioral problems after eating it. Scary, huh?


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## wytchywoman

It doesn't surprise me about the 80-90% of children having behavioral problems after ingesting food dye. That stuff is absolutely foul. It's pure chemicals. When ds 2 was vax injured we all went on a GF/CF diet. It definitely helped him heal, but the emotional impact of the diet was really difficult for him. He ate peanut butter, apples, rice bread , cereal, almond milk and tortilla chips for 6 months and he lost a TON of weight. He just couldn't get past the texture issues of the gluten replacements given all the sensory issues he has. Eventually I allowed him to slowly come off the diet, and what we avoid now is cows milk, food coloring , HFCS and MSG. It could be better, if I wanted to torture all of us again and put us on the gluten free diet ( I'm still on it myself because it actually helps with my migraines and fibromyalgia) but overall it's not too bad. As long as they eat frequent small meals and don't eat colored or high sugar foods we do ok most of the time. Plus my "wild child" is now almost 18 years old and time and maturity has done a lot to solve some of his behaviors that were so out of control when he was younger.

I


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## zinemama

OP, so sorry to read this update. Please, for your child's sake, get him the help he needs so desperately before things get worse. You've tried everything. Get him the meds. Please. Just give it six months.


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## blessedwithboys

OP, I read your post way back when, and I may even have posted on this thread before, but my fibromyalgia knocks out my memory and the thread has exploded too much for me to go back and look. I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself.

First, let me say that I used to be very anti-meds. My ds1 is just now 16. He was extremely hyper active, physically and mentally. I was 17 when he was born, and I kept asking his ped "Is this normal" and the ped kept offering Ritalin. I refused, I made dietary changes and he improved slightly. In my case, the only real issue was me: I APed and GDed him, but his behavior stressed ME out. Ds was perfectly happy. The meds would have been for ME. So instead, I greened our lives and learned alternative parenting strategies. He's a great kid now, the physical hyperkinesia is mostly gone but mentally he is unfocused. We are preparing to trial fish oil, but his therapist and I agree that after 6 mos we will try a small does of Adderall is he still is unfocused.

Now as for ds2...he came along when ds1 was about 7 1/2. From his first weeks he was HN like his big brother, but in a different way. It's hard to explain...ds1 obviously wanted to be obedient, but had trouble controlling himself, whereas ds2 just didn't give a flying you-know-what. He was 10 or 11 mos old the first time he slapped me across the face. NTS, that type of behavior had never been modeled to him.

Ds2 is now 8 1/2yo and I am convinced he has early onset BPD. We live in a small town and can't find decent psych people, so my next step is to take him to NYC to see that renowned doctor with the Greek name I can never remember without googling. My child lives in constant mixed states. He tells me he wishes I was dead while laughing hysterically. He says he loves me, and hugs me, then screams and kicks me bc "I hug too hard" (he has been dx with Sensory Processing Disorder).

This child has been all-natural from the womb. The only thing I could try is complete GFCF, which I might do regardless bc he is getting excema on his face. Maybe fish oil, too...but I think those would need to be in conjunction with a mood stabilizer. Let me be clear: We re-started counseling 6 mos ago and from the first session I told her I wanted to trial meds. His 2nd (3rd?) psych eval is coming up, and if they don't recognize his issues, we are going to a big city for a more progressive care provider's opinion.

My ds has never been quite so violent as what you describe here. His father was dx with schizophrenia one yr ago. Depression and various personality disorders, also anxiety disorders run in my family. You asked about "good" behavior at school...my son is an angel, everyone loves him, and no one would ever believe me if I told them how he acts the minute his teacher shut the car door on him in the car loop every afternoon. My niece who is a year older than my ds has already been dx with Conduct Disorder. Why? Because she beats the crap out of her classmates on a regular basis. I know it sounds crazy, but my sister is lucky. Her dd is receiving treatment. If I don't get more aggressive and proactive, it will take an act of violence or even self-harm for anyone to recognize my son's issues.

I know you don't want to be flamed, and I completely understand. Please come back here Monday night to post that you made an appointment for your son to receive psychological testing. You don't have to commit to meds right this minute. Just start the process and see where it takes you. You'll learn alot along the way. Yes, I think vaccines and HFCS and dyes and fragrances are harmful, and I think they affect kids' behavior. I think Doris Rapp was really on to something. But I also think that some people have defective brain chemistry and the way to normalize it is to medicate. Best wishes to you from someone who has BTDT.


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## Bisou

People always say this, that if a child was diabetic you would give him/her insulin. This is absolutely not a fair or accurate analogy, because with diabetes there is a clear test that says YES, YOUR CHILD HAS DIABETES, or no, your child does not have diabetes.

A more accurate analogy, in my opinion, would be giving a child insulin because you think maybe he has diabetes, and then you determine whether it's the right course of action by seeing whether the child gets better or much, much worse. Psychiatric medications are a crap shoot. I've watched people go through the trial and error of these medications, and it can sometimes leave them much worse than they were originally. What about kids being put on meds and then committing suicide when they showed no signs of this before?

I guess I find it shocking that on a "natural" parenting site like MDC where so many people are completely against vaccines, and sometimes against hospital births and medical interventions during birth, and so into strict, healthy diets that so many people would be so quick to just suggest brain altering medication for a child who has not been diagnosed with BPD despite seeing several different specialists.

I know that things aren't great for my son, but it's not like he's a kid who has had an easy life in a home with two loving parents where you could say "There is no other explanation other than a mental illness for this behavior." This is a kid who has been through multiple extreme traumas. This is a kid who has no family except for a stressed out, overworked single mom and two mostly cranky, mostly emotionally inept grandparents. This is a kid who has moved five times in five years, one of the times due to a break-in. Both of us have been through a lot, and I guess I can see how he'd just be stressed out beyond belief.

I really try not to judge people who medicate their kids. I think as a parent you have to make the best choice for your child. If my child was threatening suicide, I would probably really consider meds. If my child was going after me or others or our pet with knives or other deadly objects, I would really consider meds.

I want to give us a chance to try to work through this. I know medication can make things worse or cause irreversible side effects, and I don't want to risk that for him right now.

Quote:


> Quoted Post Removed By Administrator~~Abimommy


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## Bisou

Thanks for your post, Blessed. My son has already been evaluated a lot, but I am not done yet. This is all a work in progress.

Best of luck to you in getting help for your son. If you try meds, let me know how that goes.


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## D_McG

Have you seen an actual psychiatrist? Has medication been recommended? If not, have you been honest with them about the extent of the behavior?

I do not understand why you are so reluctant to try medication. This whole thread is so upsetting. I hope someone steps in and get him the help that you seem unable or unwilling to provide.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> My son has already been evaluated a lot, but I am not done yet.


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## sewchris2642

I've been following your journey since the beginning of this thread. I posted about my bi-polar child, Erica, and the suggestion about meds. I have another question and suggestion for you after this update. Are you taking care of yourself? Have you sought professional help/support for yourself? Not just for your son. It's no good for your son to get help if you aren't being supported. Treating children means treating the whole family (in your case, treating you and your son). You have also gone through trauma, not just your son. His abuse also affects you and the break ins affected both of you. If you project calm and being in control, it will be easier for your son because he will know that you are in control even when you feel that you are not. He takes all his clues about the world from you. His stability comes from you and being a single parent means that you have no relief from that. Don't neglect yourself.


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## APToddlerMama

Wow, OP. I am so sorry for what you are both going through. Feast Without Yeast is a book by Bruce Semon that has tons of gluten and casein free vegetarian recipes....dietary changes made a huge change in my son's behavior.

I am very much anti-meds and would implement dietary changes asap. That said, it sounds like your son REALLY might need medication. You have to weigh it out. Is medication really potentially worse than what you and he are experiencing now? Medicating early on when true mental health issues persist (not just behavioral issues) can prevent some of the changes to the brain that increase the severity of the mental health issues as a child gets older. It can literally change the course of brain development. I have worked with kids with severe mental health issues and what you're describing sounds pretty challenging. I haven't read through every single post... I see bipolar is mentioned but that your therapist doesn't think that is what is going on. Has PTSD been suggested to you? I noticed you said he had been abused. PTSD can look very much like bipolar disorder. Poor little guy. My thoughts are really with you both.


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## MommyKelly

I only have a quick second, but I wanted to say that I have 2 kids that take risperdal, and truly dont know where we would all be without it. My now 6 yo dd was just like that. ( We got her at 2.5) When she was raging so bad and we had to take her into a psych hospital for an eval because she was hurting herself we gave in and put her on the meds. I could kick myself for not doing it sooner. She is a totally different kid.

The other one is my 4 yo ds (we got him at 2) He was soooooo violent, and I was scared to death he would severely hurt one of our dogs. None of my other kids would go near him, and he is the smallest and youngest! Having him on meds has helped so much words cannot even explain!

Huge to you!! I know how hard it is.


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## PlayaMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I guess I find it shocking that on a "natural" parenting site like MDC where so many people are completely against vaccines, and sometimes against hospital births and medical interventions during birth, and so into strict, healthy diets that so many people would be so quick to just suggest brain altering medication for a child who has not been diagnosed with BPD despite seeing several different specialists.


mama, this sounds like such a stressful situation for you and your little one!

i posted in this thread back on page 6 or so and every time i see it bumped i am just so sad for you both. in response to your statement above. i think you should look at it this way; we ARE on a natural mothering site where most of us avoid unnatural interventions.

the fact that this thread has been going on for a year and so many posters have recommended medication, among other things, should be a sign that even the crunchiest parents sometimes recognize that there is a time and a place for medication. if i remember correctly, several of the professionals that your ds has seen have suggested it. i know that it is scary, but imagine if your son did not have to feel the way that he's feeling? imagine if a rough day did not involve holding him to a chair for two hours?

i know that he has had traumatic incidents and that there are behaviours that are related to trauma. medications can still help trauma victims function!


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## fuzzylogic

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

You've diet modified, you've AP'ed, therapist/psych/etc., GD'ed---which isn't my cup of tea, but whatever----ok, none of these have worked. Time to do something else. If you medicate now, it may not need to be forever. Even with many diseases, there are trials of medication. If one doesn't work, try the next.

Give the poor kid a break from the torments in his mind. I've been at least passively suicidal as long as I can remember. Don't put your kid through that!


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## Bisou

Yes, I am pretty certain my son has PTSD due to his abuse and the attempted break-in last year. He constantly talks about "bad guys" and whether they can get into our home.

The other thing is that while we had this horrendous blow up the other day, on the whole he has improved GREATLY over the past year. The frequency of his violent behavior has decreased. At one point it was happening nearly every day or every other day, and when it did happen, it would go on for hours. With the exception of the incident that happened on Saturday, at this point my son is rarely aggressive, and it happens only every few weeks to once a month or so. And, again, with the exception of what happened Saturday, when he does explode, he does not hit as hard as he used to or fight me like he used to. I have seen noticeable improvements in his behavior.

Last night he told me that there has been some sexual exploration going on at school, including large groups of children (7-9 kids), both boys and girls, unsupervised in the bathroom. There have been multiple incidents, and I think he's had a lot of anxiety about this. I asked him if he was worried about this, and he said yes. When I asked him on Saturday, once he finally calmed down a bit, what was bothering him, he said there was something going on at school, but he didn't want to talk about it. I know that this kind of thing is normal for kids at his age, but I think given the sexual/physical abuse he's had, it may be traumatic to him. In the least, it was something he was really worried about. He said, "I was being a bad guy, but I am not going to do that any more." He said there was no touching going on, just looking, but I think he felt like it was wrong and was feeling a lot of anxiety about participating in that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Wow, OP. I am so sorry for what you are both going through. Feast Without Yeast is a book by Bruce Semon that has tons of gluten and casein free vegetarian recipes....dietary changes made a huge change in my son's behavior.
> 
> I am very much anti-meds and would implement dietary changes asap. That said, it sounds like your son REALLY might need medication. You have to weigh it out. Is medication really potentially worse than what you and he are experiencing now? Medicating early on when true mental health issues persist (not just behavioral issues) can prevent some of the changes to the brain that increase the severity of the mental health issues as a child gets older. It can literally change the course of brain development. I have worked with kids with severe mental health issues and what you're describing sounds pretty challenging. I haven't read through every single post... I see bipolar is mentioned but that your therapist doesn't think that is what is going on. Has PTSD been suggested to you? I noticed you said he had been abused. PTSD can look very much like bipolar disorder. Poor little guy. My thoughts are really with you both.


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## Bisou

I have been fighting with my insurance company about getting help for myself, to no avail. They have been providing counseling at the rate of ONE session every 1-2 months. I complained and they gave me TWO therapists, but I was still seeing someone only about once per month because of their case load and the therapists kept being out of the office for whatever reason. There just aren't appointments available. I asked for an outside referral, which is what my son has, and I was told they are no longer doing that. I have called several times to speak to the supervisor of the mental health department, but he has not called me back. So, no, I am not getting help.

I don't qualify for low income assistance because I am considered moderate income, even though after I pay our bills (mortgage, health insurance, car insurance, etc), we are just barely scraping by. I can't afford $150 per session for a therapist, which is the going rate here. So I don't know what to do at this point. I have been going to my son's therapist once per week to get help with his problems, and then I attend a session with my son, but it's not enough at times. Also, I am not really supposed to be having such frequent sessions with my son's therapist, so it's possible that they may cut us off entirely. That piece of things is very upsetting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sewchris2642*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been following your journey since the beginning of this thread. I posted about my bi-polar child, Erica, and the suggestion about meds. I have another question and suggestion for you after this update. Are you taking care of yourself? Have you sought professional help/support for yourself? Not just for your son. It's no good for your son to get help if you aren't being supported. Treating children means treating the whole family (in your case, treating you and your son). You have also gone through trauma, not just your son. His abuse also affects you and the break ins affected both of you. If you project calm and being in control, it will be easier for your son because he will know that you are in control even when you feel that you are not. He takes all his clues about the world from you. His stability comes from you and being a single parent means that you have no relief from that. Don't neglect yourself.


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## Anastasiya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I have had ONE doctor (not more than one) suggest Risperdal, and this woman was a complete jerk. Right in front of my son, she said he was an awful kid, that he was "cute now, but he won't be cute much longer," that he had no friends (which was true because we had just moved and he had changed preschools, but mean to say the way she did), and actually yelled at him in her office because she expected him, at 3 1/2, to sit there for an hour with nothing to do while she talked to me, and then he climbed on my back and shoulders. After the session, he said, "She was so mean!" then cried for an hour.
> 
> I am sorry, but I have no respect for this person or her opinion, and I am not about to take the advice of someone who obviously knows nothing about what is appropriate for a child to hear about himself. This is the only person who suggested Risperdal for my son.


Your OP says two people suggested it.

I too have been following this thread for a long time, and I am concerned that in your worry to not _possibly_ damage his brain with medication, it is _certainly_ being damaged anyway by these violent rages. Like you said in your OP, you don't want his brain to be trained to respond this way to things, and he IS getting older and more dangerous. It doesn't matter how often the rages come, but the fact that they do occur and cause great damage and he loses all control of himself.

He needs to be trained to react differently. You can't do a restrain hold on a ten year old.

Furthermore, you yourself had medical issues with your own rages and depression and suicidal thoughts, and his father reacts in violence and rage, so perhaps this truly is something genetic and cannot be fixed with diet?

If I were you, I would at least give the meds a try....that's it....just a TRY, and go from there.


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## Bisou

Just to clarify, the rages I had were caused by medication.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anastasiya*
> 
> Your OP says two people suggested it.I too have been following this thread for a long time, and I am concerned that in your worry to not _possibly_ damage his brain with medication, it is _certainly_ being damaged anyway by these violent rages. Like you said in your OP, you don't want his brain to be trained to respond this way to things, and he IS getting older and more dangerous. It doesn't matter how often the rages come, but the fact that they do occur and cause great damage and he loses all control of himself. He needs to be trained to react differently. You can't do a restrain hold on a ten year old.Furthermore, you yourself had medical issues with your own rages and depression and suicidal thoughts, and his father reacts in violence and rage, so perhaps this truly is something genetic and cannot be fixed with diet? If I were you, I would at least give the meds a try....that's it....just a TRY, and go from there.


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## Bisou

I should clarify that my son's therapist is no longer suggesting medication.


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## GoBecGo

Tell him if he's feeling uncomfortable about the exploration/play he should just say "i think i'd rather play *insert favourite sport*" and leave. Tell him he doesn't have to join in. It sounds like he's got a difficult task in making/keeping friends if he's feeling anxious but not empowered to simply not be involved. In addition it is more likely that he will react inappropriately to such games and get into trouble over it (i say that as a survivor of sexual abuse, i'm not accusing him of anything, i just mean his whole context for that sort of thing is not and cannot be innocent any more, so ideally you want him to discuss concerns with you and minimise his interaction on that level with other kids - for my abuser, my brother, the fact that he'd been abused meant his innocent exploration quickly turned into abusive behaviour which i suffered for 7 years).

How much progress do you think the professionals have made in diagnosis/treatment? I would imagine PTSD would be looked for initially, right? I mean your son suffered at least one horrific sexual assault resulting in a severe injury, so surely they are aware that he will very likely have ongoing issues from that? Does he know about these things happening? Does he have a conscious memory of the attacks? Has he been able to talk about it? Perhaps it would help him to know WHY he flies into these rages?

I do hear that you felt the behaviour was violent from before he was assaulted the first time, but my DD did very similar things (and bloodied my nose on several occasions) at 18 months and we now look back and know it was a phase. Is it possible that the phase of acting that way (which i can't think of how to describe, but for us it was like she would be upset over something or want something and she would escalate it without limit, up to and including headbutting people's faces) arrested when he was assaulted and so he has never been able to "move through" it?

I am not sure what to say about the medication. I have known people with diagnoses of various illnesses/disorders who could not live without their medication. People with bipolar who will be suicidal and attempting suicide within a few weeks of going off meds, schizophrenics who have NO periods of wellness when off medication. For those people the comparison with insulin really is a valid one. But i totally get why for you, with no clear dx, and no clear path through, you are hesitant. I think i'd be looking for another evaluation, with a child psychiatrist, and a review with his psychologist/OT/other treatment practitioners to try to get a clearer picture of where everyone is. I too would hesitate to follow the advice of the dr you describe with the medication - over in birth forum lots of people are told to run away from Ob's who are horrible/have ridiculous ideas and expectations, i agree with you, if that dr really thinks a 3yo should sit not moving for an hour with nothing to do she really isn't the dr i would want assessing something as big as need for medication for my child. I'm sorry Choli but "the doctor has no clue about what is age-appropriate" isn't the same as "the dr was mean".

OP -Perhaps you would be more open to medication IF you had a clearer diagnosis and a "path" of treatment through this? If you want to try diet modification before you try medication then by all means do so, but perhaps a multiple pronged attack would be most appropriate? Find a dr you ARE comfortable with, who you CAN trust. Find therapists who DO recognise the trauma your son has suffered and DO have a plan on how to help him come to deal with them. Ultimately your son might benefit enormously from medication, so maybe it's time to try to find a way to figure out if it's appropriate. I agree that medicating without faith in the prescribing dr or the treatment process isn't a good idea. But clearly, as you say yourself, he still needs help. Hang in there.


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## zinemama

Can't get the quote thing to work, but OP you stated:

_Last night he told me that there has been some *sexual exploration going on at school, including large groups of children (7-9 kids), both boys and girls, unsupervised in the bathroom.* There have been multiple incidents, and I think he's had a lot of anxiety about this. I asked him if he was worried about this, and he said yes. When I asked him on Saturday, once he finally calmed down a bit, what was bothering him, he said there was something going on at school, but he didn't want to talk about it. *I know that this kind of thing is normal for kids at his age*, but I think given the sexual/physical abuse he's had, it may be traumatic to him. In the least, it was something he was really worried about._

I'm a former teacher. Large groups of elementary age boys and girls in the bathroom unsupervised is NOT normal under any circumstances. I would be very hesitant to believe this and in any case, I would be talking to the teacher ASAP if my child came home with a story like that. Have you contacted the school yet?


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## JessicaS

Hello!

There have been several responses removed from this thread.

Please recall: The User Agreement when posting.


Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.

One may certainly share their experiences and any research they may have available but one is required to be polite when doing so.

Thank you!

~Jessica


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## wilddreamergrl

I just saw that you had replied to my posting, apparently before they removed it. I think it would be possible to use some of the principles of the GAPS diet as a vegetarian, although certainly implementing all of it would be hard. But starting with gluten free/casein free might be a good start...a lot of families have benefitted from that basic change. Honestly, there are some GAPS families that were previous ethical vegetarians that made the change because it was the only thing that would help their kids, but that is a very personal thing. There are also discussions on the GAPS yahoo list about how to do it while remaining vegetarian, so you might check that out. The basic premise - increase good gut flora through probiotic supplementation and probiotic foods, and remove as many of the foods that feed bad gut flora as possible - would still help, I think.

I disagree with the PP's who say that diet cannot heal mental illness. I have seen too much. One of the moderators of the GAPS yahoo list was schizophrenic. The whole nine. On meds, homeless, everything. She is completely recovered and lives a normal, med-free now. There are autistic kids who have recovered on GAPS, bipolar, OCD, pretty much every mental illness you can name. Diet is powerful, more than we realize.

Thinking of you and your son and hoping for the best!


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## fuzzylogic

Please remember that explosions of rage, screaming, anger---are cathartic and in such, self-rewarding and self-perpetuating. A trial of something to decrease this may well reset the trigger so meds can then be stopped.


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## earthmama369

> It's just so hard because he does so much better, but then he's so much worse. Some people have mentioned Bipolar PD, but I don't see him having depressive states, though the "My mom hates me" stuff is definitely on the depressed side. He's never really shown a depressed side before. It was always either fine or out of control anger.


This stood out to me. Depression is kind of a misnomer, in that you think "sad." Many, many people with depression manifest it as anger, or at least partially so. So outbursts of rage could absolutely be a sign of depression.


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## Bisou

Hi Zinemama:

I didn't mean that it was normal to have all those kids in the bathroom, but that sexual curiosity and exploration is normal at this age. (Not that I want him doing that!)

It was happening on recess when they have only 2-3 adults and 75 kids on the playground. The kids were going into a small building near the playground where there are large bathrooms with many stalls. Only 1-2 kids were supposed to go at a time, but there were 5-7 kids from at least 2 different classes. Basically, the recess monitors weren't keeping track of who was in the bathroom. This didn't happen in the classroom or under supervision of the teacher.

I have already talked to the principal about this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Can't get the quote thing to work, but OP you stated:
> 
> _Last night he told me that there has been some *sexual exploration going on at school, including large groups of children (7-9 kids), both boys and girls, unsupervised in the bathroom.* There have been multiple incidents, and I think he's had a lot of anxiety about this. I asked him if he was worried about this, and he said yes. When I asked him on Saturday, once he finally calmed down a bit, what was bothering him, he said there was something going on at school, but he didn't want to talk about it. *I know that this kind of thing is normal for kids at his age*, but I think given the sexual/physical abuse he's had, it may be traumatic to him. In the least, it was something he was really worried about._
> 
> I'm a former teacher. Large groups of elementary age boys and girls in the bathroom unsupervised is NOT normal under any circumstances. I would be very hesitant to believe this and in any case, I would be talking to the teacher ASAP if my child came home with a story like that. Have you contacted the school yet?


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## Bisou

Wilddreamer:

I had a friend who was schizophrenic (I say "was" because she later committed suicide), and in trying to research things with her mom to help her, we came across strong evidence that schizophrenia was tied to wheat sensitivities. They even did a study where they removed wheat from the diets of schizophrenics in an institution and a good number of them completely recovered!

My friend had celiac sprue, which is a severe gluten allergy, yet she continued to eat these foods occasionally even though they made her sick. From what I understand, with this disease the intestines can actually die, or parts of them die, that prevents you from absorbing the correct nutrients for mental health. A LOT of our mental health has to do with our intestines, so I think that makes sense.

Anyway, I am still figuring out what I am going to do to help my son. I think I may request some blood work from his doctor as a starting point.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilddreamergrl*





> I just saw that you had replied to my posting, apparently before they removed it. I think it would be possible to use some of the principles of the GAPS diet as a vegetarian, although certainly implementing all of it would be hard. But starting with gluten free/casein free might be a good start...a lot of families have benefitted from that basic change. Honestly, there are some GAPS families that were previous ethical vegetarians that made the change because it was the only thing that would help their kids, but that is a very personal thing. There are also discussions on the GAPS yahoo list about how to do it while remaining vegetarian, so you might check that out. The basic premise - increase good gut flora through probiotic supplementation and probiotic foods, and remove as many of the foods that feed bad gut flora as possible - would still help, I think.
> 
> I disagree with the PP's who say that diet cannot heal mental illness. I have seen too much. One of the moderators of the GAPS yahoo list was schizophrenic. The whole nine. On meds, homeless, everything. She is completely recovered and lives a normal, med-free now. There are autistic kids who have recovered on GAPS, bipolar, OCD, pretty much every mental illness you can name. Diet is powerful, more than we realize.
> 
> Thinking of you and your son and hoping for the best!


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## Oubliette8

Hi Bisou,
I was thinking about this thread today, and I think a really positive sign is that he is improving quite a lot with what you are already doing. So he's not perfect, but it takes time to heal and learn new skills. Once every few weeks/a month is MUCH better than every day. That's a huge improvement! So you had a set back, that's not a big deal so long as he keeps moving forward overall, and (as my therapist would say) probably to be expected. Its also, of course, normal to be discouraged by set backs. Sure, maybe he'll grow into a very large uncontrollable child, but if he continues improving at this rate, he might also be recovered by the time he gets that big. I'd cross that bridge when you get to it. I'd also really suggest reading the Whitaker book before medicating. It talks a lot about the idea of brain chemical imbalances etc, in addition to specific info about subscribing psych meds to kids.

Also, I agree with what others have said about him being sensitive to your moods. I'm similar myself, I often pick up on people's moods when others don't. And sometimes I misinterpret it, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happens with a young child as well sometimes. For instance, if someone is stressed out, I'll feel it, and maybe think they are angry with me, and become frustrated when I try very hard to be pleasant and they still seem off. (all unconsciously of course). When in reality, maybe they are stressed because of something completely not related to me and whilst I feel they are reacting to me, they don't even realize they're presenting as stressed. If that makes any sense. I can see how, if it happened to a 4 year old, it might lead to a meltdown and confusion.

Hang in there, I hope things start looking up. I'll be thinking of you guys.


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## Bisou

Hi Oubilette:

Thanks for the encouragement. )

Maybe you already mentioned the Whitaker book, or maybe someone else did, but I missed it. What's the title?


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## Bisou

Are you talking about Anatomy of an Epidemic? I just Googled "Whitaker medication children" and I think this is what you might be referring to. Am I right?


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## Bisou

What about studies like this?

Two-year prospective follow-up of children with a prepubertal and early adolescent bipolar disorder phenotype. American Journal of Psychiatry 159 (2002):927-33.

Lithium, antidepressants and mood stabilizers all failed to help bipolar youth fare better at the end of two years. Juvenile bipolar patients treated with an antipsychotic medication, which is a standard treatment, "were significantly less likely to recover than those who did not receive a neuroleptic."

If you look at Whitaker's site (Anatomy of an Epidemic) he as a lot of research that shows that psychiatric drugs don't help many people and also can cause irreversible harm and brain damage.

I know there are people on here who feel their children have been really helped with medication, and I don't want to discount that at all, but I just have such GREAT fear of medicating my child when I see article after article saying this sort of thing.

Also check out what the book reviews for Whitaker's book (on Amazon, for example) say about all of this. This is what gives me GREAT pause in considering this for my child. Whitaker claims that some of these medications even cause brain damage and says that they do not help with any "imbalance in brain chemistry" -- that that is a myth.

What do I do with that information? This is what makes me scared to even try medication.


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## fuzzylogic

Ok, reading that study hypothesizes that maternal warmth and an intact family are the only predictors of recovery. ANY other intervention: therapy, meds of any kind, did not predict recovery. I have two main issues with this study: one, it dates to 2001 and involves a relatively small sample size. two, the title of the site under which it is published and the singling out of meds by this site as ineffective, when in truth all interventions were found ineffective, is highly indicative of someone with an ax to grind.

Is it possible that meds were tried only for the more affected of the kids? Yup. Is it possible that the more interventions applied, were in general applied because the kids were sicker to start with.....probably. It would be possible, for example, to state that a hospitalized patient receiving 3 or more IV meds was less likely to recover than one only receiving a single med......well, why?

You don't use 'em unless you need them, and the first one didn't work.


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## Oubliette8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Are you talking about Anatomy of an Epidemic? I just Googled "Whitaker medication children" and I think this is what you might be referring to. Am I right?


Yes thats the one. His other book "Mad in America" is a good read too, but not as relevant to your current situation. Whitaker himself says he's not anti-meds, but he wants the public to know what they're taking. The evidence for brain chemical imbalances as a cause of mental illness is weak, and the evidence that meds fix these imbalances is even weaker. You can use drugs for behavior control, but there are also significant drawbacks, so its important to be informed.

I'm sorry if I scared you, I certainly didn't mean to do that, I just thought you were looking for a bit more information. As for what to do with the info, you can obviously choose not medicate at all, or you can read up on long term and side effects, as well as what various drugs do and use that to help develop an approach to medication that attempts to minimize harm- for instance, knowing that some drugs can cause agitated behavior or hallucinations would enable you to ask for withdrawal from that drug if they occur, rather than having him labeled with something more severe and the side effects labeled as new symptoms, and placed on a second drug in addition to the first to control the new "symptoms" . Or knowing that some drugs show effectiveness for a certain time frame but then effectiveness drops and side effects rise might allow you to decide to use them sparingly for acute outbursts over a short period of time rather than as a maintenance dose long term. After 7 years of medication myself, I've chosen not to medicate any longer, but I can certainly see how you could use the information to make an informed choice to medicate as well, if thats what you choose to do.


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## Bisou

Hi everyone:

Have had a really awful two weeks or so. My son has definitely gone downhill, and I am not sure what's wrong.

I am devastated about this and scared out of my mind, but I am thinking about trying medication for him. I have read so many articles that say that medication can actually create worse problems than the child had before (for example, induce mania in a child that never had mania before) or cause permanent, irreversible side effects in some cases. Obviously he's having problems, but no one knows what is wrong with him. It's so terrifying to me to give him a medication that might make things worse or might damage his brain. I have known at least 5-6 close friends or relatives who have been on medication for mental health issues, and I have NEVER known a single person who felt they were effective. I know that's a relatively small number of people, but it just scares me to death. Whenever I think about doing this to my son, I can't stop crying. I feel like I have failed him. I have been too impatient. I haven't been able to protect him or provide him a safe, loving environment. I have yelled too much.

I am so scared that there is something seriously wrong with him, and that he will have a horrible life, that he will never be better, never be able to be happy or have successful relationships.

And, as usual, I am having arguments with my parents and they are blaming everything on me. So helpful. My mom always tells me to "try something different" to get him out of his aggressive/rage-filled moods, and believe me, I try everything. Then last night he was at their house and punched her in the face, and she is mad at me. I wasn't even there. Yet she thinks that when he does these things to me I am just not trying hard enough.

So sorry, I am in a terribly dark mood. Everything seems really hopeless right now.

I just don't understand how suddenly there are so many kids that have these sorts of problems and need to be on medication. How can this be? I don't remember kids being like this when I was growing up. We didn't know any kids that had these sorts of problems, and we knew a lot of people. I just feel lost and confused about the whole thing.

The research I've been reading says there is no such thing as "adjusting one's brain chemistry" with medication, and that these medications can cause brain damage in some cases, permanently altering the brain. This is just so scary to me. Yes, his behavior is scary too. I feel trapped between two really awful choices.

I have been so impatient with him the last week or two, so frustrated with his behavior. I feel like I have caused this to escalate, but then I can't even tell which is the chicken or the egg: did his behavior cause my frustration and impatience or vice versa?

Is it because it's all dark and gloomy here, the sun going down now at 4:30?

Is it because it's been cold and rainy and he hasn't gotten enough exercise (and he needs TONS)?

Is something happening at school that's upsetting him?

Is someone hurting him? (This has always been the case when his behavior escalated in the past.)

Is it because something is wrong with his brain?

Is there something medically wrong?

I did ask his doctor to do blood work to test for lead poisoning (which someone suggested). She is also going to check for celiac disease and a couple other things. I want to make sure that we at least rule out any medical issues. I wish it were only that simple.

I wish there was a blood test or brain scan that could be done for mental illness so I could just KNOW that there is something definitely wrong. I am so scared to give him medications when we don't even know what's wrong with him. What if we create a problem that he wouldn't have had otherwise? What if he's just super sensitive and angry that he's been abused and scared, that he doesn't have a dad, that he doesn't get to spend as much time with me as he wants?

I wish I had a supportive partner (or even supportive family) helping me work through this and make these decisions. Having the weight of this decision on my shoulders alone is unbearable. I am so afraid I will make the wrong choice for my son, and if something bad happens to him because of this, I will just hate myself.

I am just completely and absolutely crushed by what is happening to my son.

I always wanted a child and was told I couldn't have kids, so getting pregnant unexpectedly was scary, but an amazing miracle. I had no idea that things could turn out this way. I always believed if I did everything right, my son would turn out to be loving, smart, and wonderful. I ate all the right things during my pregnancy, I exercised, I breast-fed for two years plus, I was gentle with him, I spent tons of time with him, keeping him home with me until he was two. I tried SO hard and I just can't believe he is the way he is. I feel so responsible. I wish I could know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is nothing I can personally do for him and that medication is the ONLY option, but I don't know that. I don't know anything. Except that I am devastated for him, and for me, and I am scared out of my mind.


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## Surfacing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> I had no idea that things could turn out this way. I always believed if I did everything right, my son would turn out to be loving, smart, and wonderful. I ate all the right things during my pregnancy, I exercised, I breast-fed for two years plus, I was gentle with him, I spent tons of time with him, keeping him home with me until he was two. I tried SO hard and I just can't believe he is the way he is. I feel so responsible. I wish I could know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is nothing I can personally do for him and that medication is the ONLY option, but I don't know that. I don't know anything. Except that I am devastated for him, and for me, and I am scared out of my mind.


Bisou, you are such a resilient, hard working mother. There are things that are within your control, and things out of your control - we try our best with our children and do the best we can. You certainly have tried your best. I hope for some peace for you two soon.


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## LynnS6

:hug

Have you tried posting over in the Special Needs board? There are a number of parents there with kids on medication, and they might be able to give you a more balanced view.

And a question: If your son had epilepsy or diabetes, would you be so reluctant to medicate? I would quit reading "Dr. Google". Medication can help and it can hurt, but I know of very few documented cases where the hurt was permanent and irreversible. Everyone has a horror story that they'd love to attribute to medication. There is also risk to not doing medication. He's not learning the skills he needs and he's not feeling good about himself. How long into his teenage years before he starts to self medicate with street drugs?

A quick story that I've told several times. Friends of mine have a child with severe ADHD (the kind that the stimulants make worse, not better). They initially declared 'no drugs' and did everything in their power to work with him on his behavior -- therapy, occupational therapy, diet changes, an aide in school to help, pulling him out of school to homeschool. His behavior got worse. He was in rages daily; multiple times a day sometimes. In desperation, they tried Risperdal (an "atypical antipsychotic" if I remember correctly). They really didn't want to do it, but they were at the end of their rope and they were worried about the self image that he was creating for himself (some of his talk about himself was quite worrisome). Risperdal made a difference. As my friend described "it gave him 2 seconds to think before he blew up". With Risperdal, he had time to learn to implement the skills that they'd been working so hard on. Without it, he was not in a place to do learning. He was on Risperdal for 18 months or so. During that time, he learned a lot of skills in self-control. 5 years later, he's still got ADHD, he's still homeschooled, he's still a bit quirky. But he's a delightful young man who's succeeding socially, academically and in many other ways. Risperdal gave him the chance to learn skills that he needed. Once he learned those skills, he didn't need meds. For other disorders, you do need more continuous meds.

You need to find a professional you trust and work with them. (FWIW, my friends also tried anti-depressants with their son and went off them after 2 weeks because they were making him much worse.)


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## curiousgreenmom

Wow. You are an amazingly strong woman and a wonderful mother.









Only you can decide what is best for your son. If you try the meds, you will know if they are truly helping him or suppressing his identity.

I personally believe strongly in nutritional therapy. I was diagnosed with clinical depression as a teenager along with a mood disorder, migraines and a seizure disorder. After many unsuccessful attempts with medications of all sorts, constant testing and side effects ranging from the nasty to the unpleasant, all issues resolved with the removal of dairy and the addition of a really good b-complex vitamin to my diet. Now, that is just my experience.

I also think that getting advice from professionals is wise, that is what we pay them for. However, it seems that you could broaden your scope of professional resources to those with who share a more natural approach to dealing with behavioral issues. Here in Oregon, there is a highly qualified naturopathic doctor and homeopath on virtually every street corner, that may not be the case where you are but there are doctors who will work with you on Skype, or there may be someone in your area. In some states, it does require some homework to find a qualified nature doctor, as they aren't regulated everywhere. I know a couple who had incredible success with their formerly violent toddler with homeopathy. That child, he's now a teenager, was adopted and his biological mother was addicted to crack and using throughout her pregnancy.

I don't think that any situation is hopeless, I think that you are strong enough and loving enough to make it through to the time when you and your son have figured out a way to live and love one another without violence. That being said, I hope that you find an opportunity to take breaks, to recharge, love and forgive yourself for any behavior you feel guilt over.

My heart goes out to you.


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## APToddlerMama

OP-- I am so so sorry for what you're going through. Everything that is happening is not your fault. I keep going back to the idea that you may really need to treat PTSD to get anywhere. Everything you've written strongly suggests that PTSD could be a huge problem. He and you have been through a lot. PTSD can look so much like bipolar and behavioral disorders and I wouldn't want to overlook that. Have you heard of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing )? It is a treatment used for PTSD and I have worked with people who have had really good results. I am fairly sure it is also successful for children.

Secondly, please consider looking at diet even if it is just a last ditch effort before doing the meds (which you might get to). My son became so much less aggressive when we pulled dairy. It was amazing. Several other foods produced similar results.

If you have to do meds, you have to, and only you can judge that. I just think it is important that he is treated for the trauma he has experienced as well. Best of luck to you both.


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## GradysMom

Your story is heart breaking... I had to stop reading about halfway, so sorry if this response misses the mark... but as someone with a paranoid, depressed mother, and depression myself... I think your son needs relief from himself....

His brain is taking him for a "trip" he can't get off of.... his inner world must be very scary and troubled and medication does sound appropriate to me.


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## rissierae

This is all I have to offer. I don't know much about severe aggression, but I liked what this lady had to say.









http://www.handinhandparenting.org/video/Members_Aggression/


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## Minxie

If you think the wintertime could be contributing to his behavior, you could ask the doc to check his Vitamin D levels. I am out of sorts and slightly depressed due to a lack of sunshine and Vitamin D in the winter. I recently started taking a Vit D supplement and I feel 100% better!

Just ANOTHER thing to keep in mind... :wink


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## Bisou

Hi ApToddlerMama:

It's interesting that you mention PTSD and EMDR. This is something I've been exploring this week! I have had some EMDR to deal with the break-in attempt we had about a year and a half ago, which really made me fearful of a lot of things.

I was talking to my therapist who is a specialist in trauma and does EMDR, and she basically said the same thing you did: that my son has had so much trauma in his life, and that maybe if we can treat the trauma with something like EMDR, we can figure out what's left. My son's therapist said she feels like his rage/aggression is coming from fear, like he's so terrified he is just angry and also goes into that fight/flight mode, but he chooses "fight" every time.

I did call and talk to one EMDR therapist that works with kids, but when I explained his situation to her and all that he's been through, she said she wasn't sure she would feel comfortable taking him on, simply because of his trauma and behavior being so extreme. That was disappointing and not something I expected. She is still deciding though. I am going to check out some other therapists also.

I know dietary changes are something I need to explore, but I am sort of afraid of that, honestly. He LOVES dairy and grains, and if I started feeding him a completely different diet, I know he would be pissed, and I am just so reluctant to add one more thing to our lives that will make him angry.

He has been SO sensitive lately. The last few things that have caused EXTREME rages that have lasted several hours include the following:


Needing to leave the park/playground after being there almost 2 hours in 40 degree weather because I was freezing! (I hadn't planned to go to the park so didn't have on socks, only a light coat, etc.) I warned him two or three times that we would need to leave, and then when I said we really needed to go, he threw a huge tantrum that lasted for hours, even after we got home.
One night I accidentally bumped his arm while he was working on writing something, and he blew up for about two hours. After I bumped him, which made a mark on his paper, I said, "I am sorry, I can help you erase that," but he immediately destroyed what he had been working on, then started screaming and hitting and destroying his belongings.
He wanted to go to a pizza place with a large play area. I told him we could, but then he fell asleep in the car and I couldn't get him to wake up, so I took him home. He woke up at 7:30pm, too late to go to the pizza place, and even though I told him I would take him the next day, he went into another several hours long rage.

I have been trying SOOOOOO hard to keep my calm with him and provide him a calm, stable environment, but it's just been exhausting. The other night after I bumped his arm when he was writing, he went on a 2-3 hour long rage. It was bedtime and I was trying to keep him in bed, but he kept trying to get up and destroy things and was threatening to leave. I held him in his bed and tried tapping on his body, alternating tapping his right and left arm, which was something my EMDR therapist recommended trying. I also was rubbing and scratching his back, something he likes, and talking in a calming voice. He would start to calm a bit, but then was talking to himself under his breath, and would just suddenly explode physically and just start wrestling with me. I got him to breathe, something he will never do, and we were doing deep breathing together for a few minutes, and then he just jerked away from me again and jumped on me and grabbed my arms, like he was wrestling me. I seriously tried EVERYTHING! I then tried having us both lie on our backs and kick our legs against the bed as hard as possible. He did laugh a little at this, so I thought, "Phew, finally!" and he did kick his legs with me while I kicked mine. And then we beat our arms against the bed. But then he got out of control again and jumped on me. He wasn't really acting like he was trying to hurt me, but just wrestling with me and trying to get away from me to run to the balcony or out the front door.

I finally got out two of his puppets and we had a lengthy dialogue. I was the one puppet and asking his puppet to come lie down with me and read books, and my son's puppet was saying, "No! You are NOT my friend! You hit my arm and messed up my paper!" And we had this big discussion between the puppets about what happened. My puppet said she was sorry and didn't mean to bump his arm, and his puppet was very angry and wanted to fight my puppet. This was probably the best thing I tried with him. We finally ended up, about three hours later at 11:30 pm, both passing out lying in the bed with the puppets and a few other animals lying in bed with us.

This is so absolutely exhausting. And then I have to get up at 6:00 in the morning and get us to work and school!

The one thing that I don't quite understand is how he can do essentially fine at school and at my parents' house. He is actually really relaxed and calm at my parents' house. I don't know if it's because he doesn't have to go to school or what, but it makes me feel awful, like I am somehow stressing him out A LOT.

I am worried that maybe there is something going on at school that is damaging to him? Every time he's acted so out of control like this in the past, there was some kind of abuse happening. (Well, this happened twice, and his behavior was similar to what it is now, but not exactly the same.) I don't want to think he's always being abused, but something seems really off.

I know some people said he will use all of his energy trying to act appropriately at school, and then when he comes home, he just can't hold it together anymore. But I am not sure how this would explain how well he does at my parents' house, at least most of the time.

It's just SO sad to me that he is five years old and is having such a hard time. Childhood should be a happy, somewhat carefree time. I hope I can find a way to get him back to that happy place.

Anyway, that's my update. I hope in the next few weeks I will have some happier updates. I will be done with the term (I am a teacher) in about a week, and then I will have about three weeks off from work, so maybe I can help him a little during this time, though generally when he's with me all the time and we just stay home, that's when his behavior is the worst. We seem to do best when we fill the day with activities and just come home in time for bed. But that is exhausting for me!!!! But probably less exhausting than fighting with him for hours.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> OP-- I am so so sorry for what you're going through. Everything that is happening is not your fault. I keep going back to the idea that you may really need to treat PTSD to get anywhere. Everything you've written strongly suggests that PTSD could be a huge problem. He and you have been through a lot. PTSD can look so much like bipolar and behavioral disorders and I wouldn't want to overlook that. Have you heard of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing )? It is a treatment used for PTSD and I have worked with people who have had really good results. I am fairly sure it is also successful for children.
> 
> Secondly, please consider looking at diet even if it is just a last ditch effort before doing the meds (which you might get to). My son became so much less aggressive when we pulled dairy. It was amazing. Several other foods produced similar results.
> 
> If you have to do meds, you have to, and only you can judge that. I just think it is important that he is treated for the trauma he has experienced as well. Best of luck to you both.


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## sewchris2642

He could be acting out at home and at you because it's safe for him to do so. He can hold it together at school and at grandma's house. But he has used up all his self-control after that so his episodes are even greater at home. At least that's what Erica did.


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## APToddlerMama

Bisou---Ugh...sounds like a rough week. That is really weird that a therapist who does EMDR is considering not taking him. I've worked with some extremely challenging children and never ever had a therapist tell me that they wouldn't be comfortable taking them on. Can you look for someone else? If I could find someone else who does EMDR, I would. I guess it is a good thing if she's telling you she's not up to it. Maybe she doesn't have a lot of experience or something.

As far as diet and him being p.oed at you--you might be surprised. If diet actually is a big culprit, he may do much better than you expect. We were so worried about taking away the only foods my son would eat, but he mellowed out so much when we pulled dairy, that it was pretty easy. Maybe you could pull dairy first because that is the easiest and generally with the quickest results. There is coconut milk (1/2 gallon cartons at Whole Foods-ish types of stores in the refridgerated section) as well as yogurt and icecream (so delicious brand). You could always try doing 90/10, and then mixing in higher quantities of a dairy sub and seeing if he even notices.

Don't beat yourself up over him acting out with you and not your parents. Like pp said, he feels safe with you. This is VERY common. It is common with every child and especially when a child has been traumatized. I'd trust my gut on the school thing though...perhaps something is going on again. Can you volunteer in the classroom or something to see if you might be able to get an idea of what might be going on?

Good luck with finding someone to do EMDR....it seems so very likely that PTSD is causing at least a part of the issues. Wishing you a better week!


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## Bisou

Hi Sewchris:

Was that a mental health issue for your daughter or more of a behavioral one?

I am still trying to sort out, though I might not be able to, what is a matter of behavior, trauma, and possible mental health problems with my son. It's so complicated.

I am hoping if I can get him help with trauma, maybe that could help his behavioral issues, and then I could see what's left.


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## Bisou

So, an update.

*We did blood work this week to test for lead poisoning (someone here suggested it, and just thought I'd check!), celiac disease, and a couple other things. * That SUCKED big time. Poor guy. He cried so hard that it seemed like half the people in the waiting room were crying along with him. People looked so sad when we came out and everyone was telling him "Good job!" I did take him and let him pick out a toy afterward as I knew it was extremely hard for him to do that. He sat perfectly still the entire time. I was so proud of him.

Things have continued to be very hard for him and we are having pretty much daily outbursts and rages. This now seems to be happening at both his therapist's office at at the occupational therapist too. Yesterday we went to the OT and he climbed on a swing for a minute while she and I were talking. He fell off and got this certain look he gets on his face when I know he's hurt, and then he burst into tears and ran to me. The OT was saying "He's fine! You are fine. You are not hurt. You just fell on the pads!" and she thought he was trying to get attention or maybe get out of going to OT, which doesn't make sense because he loves 90% of it! I knew he was hurt because he never cries unless he's really hurt, but I couldn't get anything out of him about what was wrong (I was comforting him, hugging him, and trying to see what was wrong), and then he just exploded at the OT, telling her to "SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" I then saw that he had this cut and big white spot on the side of his face, right by his ear, and his ear was red and swollen also. I think when he fell, the swing hit his ear. He was really furious because she was saying he was fine and not hurt. Any time he is not validated with something like that, he is FURIOUS. I wish that me validating him had been enough, but it wasn't. He then just went on a rampage and started throwing things (balls, things sitting on the ground), and I had to restrain him. He was just absolutely enraged. We were able to get him calmed down enough that he wanted to continue with his therapy and even was laughing by the end, but phew. It's been a hard week with that.

On Wednesday, something similar happened at his therapist's office. She had collected all of these large boxes and asked him if he'd like to play with them (kick, hit, smash, knock over, etc). He was excited, and I think she was trying to find something new and different for him to try. This is only the second time he's seen her since the holding down/peeing pants incident, so I know he's very vary of her. So we went into this big empty room and together we built a stack of boxes probably almost 6 feet tall (way over my head), and then my son knocked them down, but they fell on him. Again, I saw that "look" that he gets when he gets hurt, like this momentary look of shock, then the downturned lip, sometimes a bit of anger, and I said, "Honey, did you get hurt? Are you ok?" and he just blew. He started throwing boxes at his therapist and was just furious at her. I grabbed onto him and was talking in a calming voice saying, "It's ok, she didn't do anything, she didn't want you to be hurt," and his therapist honestly seemed like she didn't know what to do, and then we couldn't get him to calm down, so she ended the session, which has never happened before.

Except for the time when he got really angry and she held him down and he peed his pants, he hasn't really shown aggression towards his therapist, maybe only once before that (and REALLY minor, like swatting in her direction but not actually trying to hit her or throw things at her). I sort of feel like after the restraint hold/peeing thing that he no longer trusts her and that maybe their relationship is broken. I don't know. I am also feeling like maybe she has reached the end of being able to help us. If every time I take him there he's just going to have a huge conflict with her, I am not sure that's helpful, though maybe some people would think working through that would be helpful. I don't know.

I am getting in touch with some different EMDR therapists, so I will see if I can find someone to help him there.

He is acting very weird about going to school, so much so that I am scared that something is going on there, but maybe it's just the stress of being in school and having to control himself for six hours (8-2).

On the positive side, I have had GREAT luck this week with getting him to calm down using puppets! I have one puppet and he has the other, and the puppets just talk to each other. Sometimes they fight. Sometimes they are friends. And I swear, he will tell that puppet TONS of things he doesn't tell me. He talks about his feelings, his fears, why he's upset. It's so weird to me, as I know he knows it's me talking to him. I guess somehow it makes it less scary.

We also pretended to be the Mommy and Daddy to one puppet all last night and all this morning, which really kept him 100% calm, but I don't know. How long is it healthy for a child to play act? I don't want him to be completely out of his reality, though I know kids like to do this a lot. We went to bed that way and woke up that way, pretending to be other people. He is a doctor and had to get ready for work, and I was going to stay home and take care of the baby. It definitely helped him get ready this morning with NO problems and NO fighting, so that was good. I guess that is much better than the regular fighting and yelling that has been happening in our home lately.

We have the appt with the psychiatrist in one week, Dec 14. I am scared to death as I know their job is basically prescribing meds. I know some of the meds require weekly or monthly blood work, and I can't imagine subjecting him to that regularly. Awful. We are going back to acupuncture today. We only tried it twice before and it seemed to completely relax him, so we are going back.

I know I need to stay calm, and I am trying to find that calm. It's extremely hard though. Almost impossible at times.

I have felt these moments of calm lately though, and I wondered if you guys are praying for us. I am not a religious person (though was raised fundamentalist Christian! Eeeks!), but I do believe in a higher power, I think, so if you're the praying type, we can use all the help we can get.

I've been thinking about a naturopath, but I've seen three myself and felt like it was a huge scam. It cost me like $350 each time I saw one, plus they wanted me to spend $200+ per month on these weird "shake" mixes that were completely unpalatable, and it just seemed like a complete rip off. I am sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't found one yet. I am having MUCH better luck with acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Their treatments only cost like $10 for a month's supply of herbs! Not $200+!


----------



## wytchywoman

OK, first can I say that I hate this new format. LOL! I don't want to have to quote your entire post, seems like a wast of board space. Anyway....

You had asked how long it would be healthy for a child to play act like that. My response to that is if he is still doing it at college then maybe there's a problem. In all seriousness, he's so young still. It's completely normal to do that. And if he needs to do that as an older child, as long as he can find appropriate ways to do it, like at home with you, then I say let him do it. You found an innovative, creative way for him to be able to relate to his world and how he feels about it. Way to go!!!!

As for meds and treatments, I would definitely make a list of your concerns and bring it with you to the psychiatrist so that you don't forget. Tell him/her it's critically important that he not be placed on meds that will need monthly blood monitoring, at least not yet. There's plenty of stuff out there that is mild enough that blood work isn't necessary. Share your concerns with the psych, all of them, and if they blow you off then you know that you need to find someone else who will listen to you and address your worries. There are some good naturopaths out there, and there are some real stinkers too. I have found that simply asking them for an interview before you go in for the initial appointment sometimes wards off the scams. Acupuncture to me has always been calming and soothing,so that's definitely something to consider and I believe there are some practitioners that even do needleless acupuncture. Reiki, HCM and chiropractics are also good things to think about as well.


----------



## Minxie

Something struck me when I read your post tonight. I may not word this correctly but I'll give it a try; please don't be offended. It seems to me as if your DS pauses for a moment to see if you are going to step in with these adults. In each of the instances you mentioned, he runs to you or looks to you before he gets furious and attacks the adult in question. Perhaps he is angry with *you* because he feels out of control and/or because he was injured previously and feels like you can't protect him.

In either case, it seems as if you try to back off at the therapists' offices exactly at the moment that he needs you to step in and say enough. I understand what you are doing because they are the professionals but you are his parent and he needs you to be strong for him. Even if you FEEL out of control, you need to APPEAR in control so that he has a firm foundation upon which he can depend.

The playacting is probably totally normal. My DS went to school as Spiderman last week and this; we are alternately astronauts, firemen, mad scientists, The Witch and Hansel, etc., etc., etc.

Lastly, are you able to pop in at school to observe his interaction with his teacher and classmates? That might help you to understand what's going on with him.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Things have continued to be very hard for him and we are having pretty much daily outbursts and rages. This now seems to be happening at both his therapist's office at at the occupational therapist too. Yesterday we went to the OT and he climbed on a swing for a minute while she and I were talking. He fell off and got this certain look he gets on his face when I know he's hurt, and then he burst into tears and ran to me. The OT was saying "He's fine! You are fine. You are not hurt. You just fell on the pads!" and she thought he was trying to get attention or maybe get out of going to OT, which doesn't make sense because he loves 90% of it! I knew he was hurt because he never cries unless he's really hurt, but I couldn't get anything out of him about what was wrong (I was comforting him, hugging him, and trying to see what was wrong), and then he just exploded at the OT, telling her to "SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" I then saw that he had this cut and big white spot on the side of his face, right by his ear, and his ear was red and swollen also. I think when he fell, the swing hit his ear. He was really furious because she was saying he was fine and not hurt. Any time he is not validated with something like that, he is FURIOUS. I wish that me validating him had been enough, but it wasn't. He then just went on a rampage and started throwing things (balls, things sitting on the ground), and I had to restrain him. He was just absolutely enraged. We were able to get him calmed down enough that he wanted to continue with his therapy and even was laughing by the end, but phew. It's been a hard week with that.
> 
> On Wednesday, something similar happened at his therapist's office. She had collected all of these large boxes and asked him if he'd like to play with them (kick, hit, smash, knock over, etc). He was excited, and I think she was trying to find something new and different for him to try. This is only the second time he's seen her since the holding down/peeing pants incident, so I know he's very vary of her. So we went into this big empty room and together we built a stack of boxes probably almost 6 feet tall (way over my head), and then my son knocked them down, but they fell on him. Again, I saw that "look" that he gets when he gets hurt, like this momentary look of shock, then the downturned lip, sometimes a bit of anger, and I said, "Honey, did you get hurt? Are you ok?" and he just blew. He started throwing boxes at his therapist and was just furious at her. I grabbed onto him and was talking in a calming voice saying, "It's ok, she didn't do anything, she didn't want you to be hurt," and his therapist honestly seemed like she didn't know what to do, and then we couldn't get him to calm down, so she ended the session, which has never happened before.
> 
> Except for the time when he got really angry and she held him down and he peed his pants, he hasn't really shown aggression towards his therapist, maybe only once before that (and REALLY minor, like swatting in her direction but not actually trying to hit her or throw things at her). I sort of feel like after the restraint hold/peeing thing that he no longer trusts her and that maybe their relationship is broken. I don't know. I am also feeling like maybe she has reached the end of being able to help us. If every time I take him there he's just going to have a huge conflict with her, I am not sure that's helpful, though maybe some people would think working through that would be helpful. I don't know.


----------



## sewchris2642

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Hi Sewchris:
> 
> Was that a mental health issue for your daughter or more of a behavioral one?
> 
> I am still trying to sort out, though I might not be able to, what is a matter of behavior, trauma, and possible mental health problems with my son. It's so complicated.
> 
> I am hoping if I can get him help with trauma, maybe that could help his behavioral issues, and then I could see what's left.


Sorry I didn't respond to your post sooner but this new email notification didn't notify me of new posts until today. Erica wasn't diagnosed until in her early 20s with bipolar, social anxiety, and OCD. All conditions that started in early childhood, at least by age 5, possibly as early as age 3. Her dr. made that guess based on what she and I reported about her childhood. She had no trauma growing up that could remotely explain any of her behavior and my pregnancy and delivery were normal. She could hold it together for church, home school groups, and family get togethers but then blow up at home. We had to have a rigid schedule to her day and I had to tell her the exact order of events and errands. If I deviated from the schedule, she fell apart. Even a little thing as going to the park instead of going home or going to the bank before the grocery store when I said grocery store before bank. A rigid schedule gave her a sense of control over her world. When we deviated from that schedule, she felt that the world dropped out from under her feet and that everything was in chaos. A schedule also let her know that her parents were in control. When it came time for her to go to school, we opted to continue home school (we had been home schooling Joy for 2 years by then). There was no way that she could cope with being in school 5 days a week even for the 3 hours of Kindergarten. Crowds stressed her out. She hated speaking up in a group even it was people who she knew since she was born. There was no way that she would have talked in class. Any time we were around a group, we knew that the next few days were going to be spent at home so Erica could be alone. She had an explosive temper so I taught her to go to her room and punch out her pillow. Hurting others or herself was not allowed. Time outs were very effective with Erica because they gave her time alone to recoup and destress. Rules were black and white with no options for exceptions. Exceptions meant that her parents weren't in control and that meant to Erica that no one was in control. That's a frightening thought to any child but to a child like Erica it was so frightening that she would lash out. There is a lot in your posts about your son that remind me of Erica.


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## Bisou

Hi Sewchris:

Thanks for responding to my question!

There are some things in your post about your daughter that remind me of my son, except that he is doing fairly well at school. His teacher says that while he has a few conflicts here and there, he isn't having any more conflicts that any of the other kids.

How is your daughter doing now? Did she have to continue taking medication throughout her life? You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable answering here. I know it's personal!


----------



## Bisou

Wytchy:

Thanks for your posting. I haven't thought about reiki for my son, but that might be something to consider.

What is HCM?


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Minxie*
> 
> Something struck me when I read your post tonight. I may not word this correctly but I'll give it a try; please don't be offended. It seems to me as if your DS pauses for a moment to see if you are going to step in with these adults. In each of the instances you mentioned, he runs to you or looks to you before he gets furious and attacks the adult in question. Perhaps he is angry with *you* because he feels out of control and/or because he was injured previously and feels like you can't protect him.
> 
> In either case, it seems as if you try to back off at the therapists' offices exactly at the moment that he needs you to step in and say enough. I understand what you are doing because they are the professionals but you are his parent and he needs you to be strong for him. Even if you FEEL out of control, you need to APPEAR in control so that he has a firm foundation upon which he can depend.


Hi Minxie:

I think it's possible that my son may be angry because he feels like I can't protect him, or haven't been able to protect him in the past. I do think the incident where his therapist didn't allow him to go to the bathroom and he peed his pants (and he was BEGGING me to help him) damaged both his relationship with me and with his therapist. He had one ok session with her since then, but we've had three sessions since that incident, and the last two sessions (this week and last week) have been AWFUL.

I might not be quite getting what you are saying here, but I don't really feel like I am backing off at the therapists' offices. When he has exploded, I have been physically restraining him, trying to calm him with my words to de-escalate the situation, but using strong words ("No. That is NOT ok. You may NOT hit!" etc) when he is continuing to hit and trying to throw or break things. He is a very strong kid, and my therapist said he's one of the strongest kids she has seen of his age (I swear he is like pure muscle!), so even when restraining him, he is still sometimes able to do things I am trying to prevent him from doing. I am only 5'2", so I am not a very big person to be wrestling with him. He's in the 95th percentile for height and weight, so he's not a small kid for his age!

Is this not how it sounded? Or was there something else you thought I should be doing? Maybe I am not quite understanding what you are saying.


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## Bisou

Another update. . . . .

I talked to the EMDR therapist today, and she has agreed to work with my son on his trauma issues, which is really good. I am concerned about what it might be like for him to talk about the abuse that happened when he was 2, which was serious, since I am not sure if he remembers it and I don't want to re-traumatize him. I also wonder if there's a chance of this not working? I have had EMDR to deal with my PTSD as a result of the attempted break-in and attack, but I knew what I was getting into. I have found it to be beneficial for me, but I wouldn't want to make anything worse for him! I will be having a session on my own with the new therapist next week (Monday) to discuss everything, so hopefully it all sounds good.

I am really hoping that this might help my son calm down, even just a bit. The downside is that I will be paying for it OUT OF POCKET. $120 per session. OUCH. I totally can't afford this, but it sounds like my parents might help me pay. We're all desperate for help for him.

I am a little worried right now about having too many different appointments going on for my son, since he has OT, his regular therapist, acupuncture, and now the EMDR therapist. It seems like too much, so maybe I will have to scale back on something.

I am looking into removing gluten from his diet. I haven't tried this yet because it seems completely overwhelming, as we are vegetarian and almost everything he eats contains dairy and/or gluten. I am so overwhelmed with what's going on right now, that trying to make such a huge change seems nearly impossible, but I know if it would dramatically improve his behavior it would be worth it!

I did post some questions about the GF/DF diet on the allergies forum, so if anyone has some great recommendations, let me know! I am mainly wondering about whether I should remove gluten or dairy first. Gluten seems like more of a culprit in behavior issues. I am sort of hoping I can switch out some of the foods without him noticing a bunch. Is that wishful thinking? It just seems like if suddenly he couldn't eat ANY of the foods he likes, he would flip out even more. If he doesn't eat, he is a BEAR. Thankfully he does like fruits and veggies.

Any good recommendations for GF bread, pasta, buns (like hamburger buns)? Anything I should absolutely avoid? I've heard some GF products are great and others are awful. Any advice that any of you GF parents can give me would be much appreciated! I'd like to focus more on what we CAN eat and trying to replace foods that he likes with something similar.

He had a super crappy session with his therapist today, but then he came home and had an AWESOME night with me, with no tantrums, no screaming, no meanness. We played with his toys, ate dinner together and actually talked, snuggled, and wrestled and did pretend karate. It was the first time in maybe two weeks???? God, I am exhausted. It has been a constant barrage of horrible comments, screaming, yelling, hitting, breaking stuff. I was really surprised that we had such a good night. It was such a relief. It's been just miserable to be around him lately, and that's just so sad. It's been literally torture to be with him, and I try with all my might to stay patient and calm and upbeat, but sometimes it seems impossible. I know all kids are difficult sometimes, but to not be able to enjoy spending time with your child for even an hour or two because he won't stop screaming, hitting, telling you he hates you and you're fat, ugly, stupid, and he wants you to die, well, that's just absolutely and completely SAD. I feel like I don't want to be around him, yet it's hard to be away from him because he's hurting so much and I am so scared for him.

Those of you who pray, or wish, or think good thoughts, or whatever you call it, please keep praying, thinking, and wishing for us. We need all the help we can get.


----------



## Minxie

I probably didn't explain it very well; my apologies. You had mentioned before that you backed off to let the therapist handle it (the peeing incident) because she was the professional. In the most recent bit with the OT, she was reassuring him that he was fine when he came to you for comfort. It seems like he needed YOU to tell the OT "I've got it!" and comfort him before he could return to the OT.

I'm not there so I don't know but you described him seeking comfort, the OT continuing to dismiss his pain, and then him blowing up at the OT with "Shut UP! SHUT UP!" What would happen if you verbally stepped in so that DS sees and hears that you have it covered? I know that my DS looks to me for everything even when, and sometimes especially if, another adult is telling him something. In this instance, my son would totally disregard what the OT was saying in order to seek comfort and reassurance from me. Even if the OT said he was fine, my son would have physically looked at me to confirm that. It sounds like your son did also but then needed her to stop dismissing his pain which is very reasonable. If I am in pain, I don't want to hear someone telling me "It's nothing..." either.







Maybe if you step in so he can hear that you are in command of the situation, he will be less explosive to the OT.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I might not be quite getting what you are saying here, but I don't really feel like I am backing off at the therapists' offices. When he has exploded, I have been physically restraining him, trying to calm him with my words to de-escalate the situation, but using strong words ("No. That is NOT ok. You may NOT hit!" etc) when he is continuing to hit and trying to throw or break things. He is a very strong kid, and my therapist said he's one of the strongest kids she has seen of his age (I swear he is like pure muscle!), so even when restraining him, he is still sometimes able to do things I am trying to prevent him from doing. I am only 5'2", so I am not a very big person to be wrestling with him. He's in the 95th percentile for height and weight, so he's not a small kid for his age!
> 
> Is this not how it sounded? Or was there something else you thought I should be doing? Maybe I am not quite understanding what you are saying.


----------



## sewchris2642

I don't mind talking about Erica and she doesn't either. She views her mental illness as no different from the diabetic who has to take insulin. I have told her how proud of her I am. It takes courage to seek help for a mental illness like bipolar and to be open about taking medication for it. She has held a full time job, lived on her own and is now the proud mother of 2 girls with her so of 12 years. They have had a very up and down relationship, breaking up, getting back together, and going through couple counseling before settling down and having kids. There have been periods when she didn't have to take medication. But she monitors her emotions and when she starts down that road again, she goes back on them. She is at high risk for PPD and both her and her dr monitor her closely. She was able to nurse her first (while on medication) for over 18 months before she self-weened because Erica was pregnant. Erica is now breastfeeding her 2nd and has decide to try out the sahm gig.

Because of her (what we thought of at the time) her extreme shyness and very low stress threshold and her reaction to church and Sunday school (4 hours at church on Sunday morning) with teachers and kids that she had always known, we knew that she would not do well in a classroom setting. She couldn't stand up to speak in front of the class and she never looked at who she was talking to. And we didn't want to fight the school district over a misdiagnosis of ADHD, ADD, or learning disabilities. None of which she had. So we sidestepped the whole thing and home schooled her. She did go to a Montessori classroom for 6th grade. Then went to a classroom/home school combination (in school for 2-2.5 days, at home 2.5-3 days). She did well in both situations. In fact, she ran (and won) for class president in 9th grade. And even gave a speech at 9th grade graduation, head down and white-knuckled hands gripping the podium in a death grip. But she did it. One of the proudest memories I have of her childhood. She went on and did 10th and 11th grades at the high school. Decided to do independent study for her senior year and finished the entire year by the end of the first semester.


----------



## Bisou

Minxie:

Thanks for the reply. I totally get what you are saying now.

I do feel like I failed my son in the incident with his therapist where he peed his pants because it FELT like participating in something that was very cruel and even abusive to my son. I don't think that was the therapist's intent at all, and she has apologized, but I think it was very damaging to his relationship with her and me. He was saying, "Mommy, please help me!" and I was thinking, "Well, if I step in, I am undermining what she's doing, and I probably shouldn't do that. But he needs to go potty, and I should take him," and I was basically having this entire debate inside my head about what was right and wrong in the situation. I had decided to say, "I need to take him to the bathroom" when it was too late and he had peed his pants. It happened fairly fast. But I definitely think he feels like I failed him, and I think our kids need us to advocate for them and be on their side. I apologized to him and told him that would never happen again and that I would ALWAYS take him to the potty if he needed to go, but it doesn't un-do what's been done.

With the situation with his OT, as soon as I saw that look on his face, his "I just got hurt!" look, I immediately went to him and took him in my arms and was cuddling him and asking him where he got hurt. I think my language and physical actions were very validating ("What happened? Where are you hurt? I am so sorry you're hurt! Can you show me where it hurts?"). He hadn't returned to the OT, she just happened to be standing right next to us and saying "You're not hurt. You're ok." Honestly, it pissed me off a bit because my child, while he has his many flaws, isn't the kind of kid who cries for manipulation. If he's crying, he's usually hurt pretty badly. I was definitely validating him, hugging him, and listening to him, and I was trying to tell her that "If he cries like this, he is hurt," but she was saying, "There is no way he could get hurt!" Maybe she was worried about liability??? I have no idea. Again, it happened so quickly where she made these few statements and he just blew up. Even when I showed her the cut on his ear, she still minimized his reaction. I am sure it hurt like heck! His whole ear was swollen too, poor guy.

I see this kind of thing with kids in public places where they are hurt and parents, particularly dads doing the "tough guy" thing, will say, "You are fine" and minimize it, and that always bugs me. If a kid says he's hurt, what's the harm in being sympathetic? If they can't get sympathy from their parents when they are hurt, where will they get it?

I also think that some therapists who have seen lots of kids with behavior problems get a little callous to the point where they think EVERYTHING is manipulation, and I don't agree with that line of thinking. A lot of times, kids really ARE crying because they are honestly hurt or scared, not because they are trying to be defiant or whatever. That line of thinking really bugs me. My son's defiance tends to be very straightforward, like yelling or flat out refusing to do something, not via crying or other manipulative techniques.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Minxie*
> 
> I probably didn't explain it very well; my apologies. You had mentioned before that you backed off to let the therapist handle it (the peeing incident) because she was the professional. In the most recent bit with the OT, she was reassuring him that he was fine when he came to you for comfort. It seems like he needed YOU to tell the OT "I've got it!" and comfort him before he could return to the OT.
> 
> I'm not there so I don't know but you described him seeking comfort, the OT continuing to dismiss his pain, and then him blowing up at the OT with "Shut UP! SHUT UP!" What would happen if you verbally stepped in so that DS sees and hears that you have it covered? I know that my DS looks to me for everything even when, and sometimes especially if, another adult is telling him something. In this instance, my son would totally disregard what the OT was saying in order to seek comfort and reassurance from me. Even if the OT said he was fine, my son would have physically looked at me to confirm that. It sounds like your son did also but then needed her to stop dismissing his pain which is very reasonable. If I am in pain, I don't want to hear someone telling me "It's nothing..." either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if you step in so he can hear that you are in command of the situation, he will be less explosive to the OT.


----------



## Bisou

Sewchris:

Thanks for sharing that! I don't know if my son has BPD, but it's good to know that if he does, there is a chance of him going on to lead a happy and normal (or at least close to normal, with some speed bumps perhaps) life.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sewchris2642*
> 
> I don't mind talking about Erica and she doesn't either. She views her mental illness as no different from the diabetic who has to take insulin. I have told her how proud of her I am. It takes courage to seek help for a mental illness like bipolar and to be open about taking medication for it. She has held a full time job, lived on her own and is now the proud mother of 2 girls with her so of 12 years. They have had a very up and down relationship, breaking up, getting back together, and going through couple counseling before settling down and having kids. There have been periods when she didn't have to take medication. But she monitors her emotions and when she starts down that road again, she goes back on them. She is at high risk for PPD and both her and her dr monitor her closely. She was able to nurse her first (while on medication) for over 18 months before she self-weened because Erica was pregnant. Erica is now breastfeeding her 2nd and has decide to try out the sahm gig.
> 
> Because of her (what we thought of at the time) her extreme shyness and very low stress threshold and her reaction to church and Sunday school (4 hours at church on Sunday morning) with teachers and kids that she had always known, we knew that she would not do well in a classroom setting. She couldn't stand up to speak in front of the class and she never looked at who she was talking to. And we didn't want to fight the school district over a misdiagnosis of ADHD, ADD, or learning disabilities. None of which she had. So we sidestepped the whole thing and home schooled her. She did go to a Montessori classroom for 6th grade. Then went to a classroom/home school combination (in school for 2-2.5 days, at home 2.5-3 days). She did well in both situations. In fact, she ran (and won) for class president in 9th grade. And even gave a speech at 9th grade graduation, head down and white-knuckled hands gripping the podium in a death grip. But she did it. One of the proudest memories I have of her childhood. She went on and did 10th and 11th grades at the high school. Decided to do independent study for her senior year and finished the entire year by the end of the first semester.


----------



## Bisou

A little update:

The last two days have been slightly better. Sigh. I actually had a few hours of enjoying spending time with my son. How nice that was! He has had only minor blow ups in the past two days, not major several hours long rages. Thank GOD.

I got my son's blood results back today, and they were a little hard to read (format was off and it had weird exclamation points and spacing issues) so I am double checking with his doctor, but it looks like he doesn't have any problems with his lead levels or allergies. She tested for celiac and several food allergies, including shellfish, milk, dairy, peanuts, and soy, I think. It looks like everything came back well within the normal range.

I just had a thought. I HAVE had my son vaccinated (though haven't completed his most recent vax set because I got more concerned about side effects), and he did have a severe reaction to the DTAP vaccine (twice). His doc thought it was probably pertussis that caused the problem. He had a 106 temp, if I remember correctly. I wonder if he had a vaccine injury? Could that cause behavior/brain problems? Does anyone know anything about that? I guess I should check that forum. Is there anything that can be done, if that's the case?

I also just started him on *Methylcobalamin B 12,* which my acupuncturist recommended for my son. She said it could improve his behavior in a matter of a few days. He started it yesterday, so we will see. We got these things called Revita Pops, which have this different form of b12 in it that's better absorbed. I guess kids with autism use this a lot. Since we are vegetarians, he could be low in B12, I guess. I know that's an important one for brain function.

I am seeing the EMDR therapist on Monday, I think, and then I will start with my son. I am hoping that between all of these things I will figure out something to help him.

PHEW. I am freaking tired.


----------



## pianojazzgirl

Sorry, this is a little outside my ken, but I wanted to suggest that you do a little research into methylfolate as well. I am homozygous for a MTHFR genetic variant. This is a type of thrombophilia (blood-clotting disorder), and means that I do not absorb folic acid well. Folic acid, and B12 are both part of a methylation process by which the body gets rid of certain toxins. I also need to supplement B12 and B6.

In my research on MTHFR I ran into articles about autistic kids who needed to supplement with methylfolate (the type of folate I need to take) because their bodies weren't able absorb the folate found in usual supplements or in folate-enriched foods, etc. Interesting that your acupuncturing recommended methylcolbalamin, and mentioned that kids with autism often take it. Maybe those two supplements should be paired together??? It's something I'm going to do a little research on for myself (as I mentioned I already sup reg B12 but am interested in reading more about methylcolbalamin), and maybe you'd be interested in doing a little reading too (to see if methylfolate supplementation might be beneficial for your ds)? I'll share if I find anything interesting. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> A little update:
> 
> The last two days have been slightly better. Sigh. I actually had a few hours of enjoying spending time with my son. How nice that was! He has had only minor blow ups in the past two days, not major several hours long rages. Thank GOD.
> 
> I got my son's blood results back today, and they were a little hard to read (format was off and it had weird exclamation points and spacing issues) so I am double checking with his doctor, but it looks like he doesn't have any problems with his lead levels or allergies. She tested for celiac and several food allergies, including shellfish, milk, dairy, peanuts, and soy, I think. It looks like everything came back well within the normal range.
> 
> I just had a thought. I HAVE had my son vaccinated (though haven't completed his most recent vax set because I got more concerned about side effects), and he did have a severe reaction to the DTAP vaccine (twice). His doc thought it was probably pertussis that caused the problem. He had a 106 temp, if I remember correctly. I wonder if he had a vaccine injury? Could that cause behavior/brain problems? Does anyone know anything about that? I guess I should check that forum. Is there anything that can be done, if that's the case?
> 
> I also just started him on *Methylcobalamin B 12,* which my acupuncturist recommended for my son. She said it could improve his behavior in a matter of a few days. He started it yesterday, so we will see. We got these things called Revita Pops, which have this different form of b12 in it that's better absorbed. I guess kids with autism use this a lot. Since we are vegetarians, he could be low in B12, I guess. I know that's an important one for brain function.
> 
> I am seeing the EMDR therapist on Monday, I think, and then I will start with my son. I am hoping that between all of these things I will figure out something to help him.
> 
> PHEW. I am freaking tired.


----------



## Bisou

Hi Pianojazz:

I will ask my acupuncturist about that other form of folic acid! Yes, do let me know if you find out anything interesting.

My son isn't autistic (I wasn't sure if you thought that or not), but my acupuncturist said she's had good results with other kids (also non-autistic) in treating behavior issues and explosive tempers. I am just trying whatever I can think of!


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## pianojazzgirl

Oh yes, I know your son isn't autistic, but I found it interesting that the poor absorption of b12 was linked with autism as was poor absorption of folic acid, and that your acupuncturist said that those b12 supps could help non-autistic kids with behavioural issues. Perhaps the methylfolate might be helpful for non-autistic kids as well. Anyway, like I said, I'll let you know what I come up with.


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## sewchris2642

I think that non "average" kids runs in my family. My sister's 2nd paved the way for Erica. He is 5-6 years older than Erica. My sister gave me a lot of good advice on what worked on him. He also was an extreme loner and stood off at family get togethers. If he fell asleep on the living room floor, she couldn't move him to his bed. She would leave the light on in the hall way, cover him up with a blanket, and leave him there. I also have a grandson who is a highly anxious child (Joy's oldest) and her youngest is trying to out do Evil Knievel as a dare devil. Matilda (Erica's first) has a lot of Erica's stubbornness.


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## wytchywoman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Wytchy:
> 
> Thanks for your posting. I haven't thought about reiki for my son, but that might be something to consider.
> 
> What is HCM?


Herbal chinese medicine









If you are interested, the distant healing network offers services for free. All you have to do is request and he'll be assigned to someone. You just say if you want reiki or prayers or whatever. Usually the healers there keep people on their "caseload" for a few weeks to a month or so, but you can resubmit requests as needed.

http://www.the-dhn.com/


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl*
> 
> Oh yes, I know your son isn't autistic, but I found it interesting that the poor absorption of b12 was linked with autism as was poor absorption of folic acid, and that your acupuncturist said that those b12 supps could help non-autistic kids with behavioural issues. Perhaps the methylfolate might be helpful for non-autistic kids as well. Anyway, like I said, I'll let you know what I come up with.


Hi Pianojazz:

I wasn't sure if you did or not, but just wanted to clarify that.







There are a lot of postings here with lots of info, so I wanted to make sure I was clear.

I would love to hear about what you find out, if anything. I am going to continue the MB12 Revita Pops this week and I will post if I see any difference!


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *wytchywoman*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Wytchy:
> 
> Thanks for your posting. I haven't thought about reiki for my son, but that might be something to consider.
> 
> What is HCM?
> 
> 
> 
> Herbal chinese medicine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are interested, the distant healing network offers services for free. All you have to do is request and he'll be assigned to someone. You just say if you want reiki or prayers or whatever. Usually the healers there keep people on their "caseload" for a few weeks to a month or so, but you can resubmit requests as needed.
> 
> http://www.the-dhn.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks so much! I went to a reiki healer once, and it was a little odd since she also did work with past lives and Native American shamanism, so I wasn't really prepared for what she told me as I wasn't quite sure what to think of it and it was kinda traumatic (she told me about past lives I had supposedly lived which included torture and execution!), but I know that's not typical reiki!

Do you do reiki? I've done a lot of research on it and I think it's interesting and I am open to it. I just wish my first experience was a little more normal!









I would totally love to submit my son for that. It can't hurt!

I have been taking my son to a school of Chinese medicine and acupuncture here. He's just been a few times, and we just went again for the first time in a few months last week. I am not sure I could actually get him to take any herbal medicines. Getting him to take medicine is pretty much impossible. He got MRSA a few months ago and was so resistant to taking medication in ANY form that he almost had to be hospitalized to get IV antibiotic treatment! He is a challenging one.

I just went to the Chinese medicine clinic at the school today and I got to be the guinea pig for 50+ doctoral students, which was very interesting. I have a hideous chronic skin condition called hidradenitis suppurativa, which they were interested in learning about. It's genetic but didn't show up until after my son was born. I have WAY too many stressful things in my life, but I am working on it.

Sometimes I've joked that if there is such a thing as reincarnation (not something I really believe in, but who knows?), I must have been cocky or something when choosing my next life. Sometimes I've thought maybe it's something like playing a video game where you increase in levels as you get more advanced, and the higher levels are more difficult lives. What did I do . . . . say "Sure! I can handle an 8 difficulty level? Bring it ON!" Ok, next time I think I will back down to more like a 5 or 6! This has been a little more intense than I bargained for!


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## wytchywoman

I sort of chuckled when I ready what you said about reincarnation, I do have to disagree though. I have seen parents and people who seem to get things so easily. Their kids are a dream. They life seems sooooooo perfect. Nothing bad ever happens. And then I see people like you and I, where it seems like life is a long continuous comedy (or tragedy) of errors. I honeslty truly believe that being challenged has nothing to do with a prior life, it has to do with the fact that we are strong and resilient people. The universe (and our own soul decision making) chose our life paths because we CAN handle what we have been through. It sucks, and at times it feels like you're never going to make it, but we still make it work somehow, and I believe deeply that not only do we and our children benefit from it, but I think there are others out in the world benefit from it too. We may not always know about it, but I do think it happens.

Anyway, as for reiki, yes you had a horrid experience. That most definitely is NOT what reiki is supposed to do, and no reiki or new age or shaman or whatever practitioner should be disclosing info about prior lives like that. If a person is interested in exploring prior lives, the role of a reiki person is to act in a way that will guide them to the info that the person already has, and then help them process it. Reiki by nature is designed to be calming and nurturing, It is a mothering energy. So definitely consider it for your son. I am a healer on DHN and have also requested healings for my own sons, and I have never had a bad experience.

As for vax injuries, they absolutely can cause behavioral issues. I can't remember if I told you this or not, but my younger son was injured by vaxes, primarily the flu vax but I believe that the DPT vax also played a role in that, and he reacted to the P part of the vax as well. I can give you more detaile if you want, but basically he had the P vax, had a reaction, then had the flu vax about a month later (November), Within a week his behavior began to deteriorate. Within a month he started losing his ability to speak. Things rapidly started to get worse. He was acting out at school, wouldn't talk for hours at a time, lost a ton of skills he had, etc...Starting in February after the vax he didn't say one word for three months. He didn't even make any sound when he cried. He was no longer potty trained at all, couldn't use utensils to eat with, became super duper violent at times, couldn't stand being around anybody by his father and myself, avoided other children like the zombie plague etc....He was 4 3/4 when it all started. He had already been diagnosed with autsim prior to this, but was definitely waaaaaay more high functioning than what he was at the peak of the vax injury. None of his doctors had any clue as to what to do about it. They ran all sorts of tests, scratched their head and called it "atypical" autism and there was nothing anyone could do. I told them to go F themselves, that it was the flu shot that caused this and they all knew it, and took my son to a naturopath. He put G on a GF/CF diet and high grade supplements. Within one month I had my baby back and he was speaking again. He still has loads of sensory issues that weren't around prior to the vax injury, but other than that he is recovered,

So short story long, noone really knows the full extent of what a vax injury can do. The mainstream medical world won't even investigate it because then the pHARMaceutical companies would be sued right out of business.


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## rainbringer

Hi Bisou,

Just wanted to say the B12 can cause problems for some kids - I was giving it to my daughter, having heard good things about it and she just got wilder and wilder. Hoping it helps your son, but wanted you to know. Gfcf diet does help a lot of kids with aggression, also we have had good success with a teeny sprinkle of lithium orotate, (over the counter, not the prescription lithium).

Wishing you the best.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *rainbringer*
> 
> Hi Bisou,
> 
> Just wanted to say the B12 can cause problems for some kids - I was giving it to my daughter, having heard good things about it and she just got wilder and wilder. Hoping it helps your son, but wanted you to know. Gfcf diet does help a lot of kids with aggression, also we have had good success with a teeny sprinkle of lithium orotate, (over the counter, not the prescription lithium).
> 
> Wishing you the best.


Hi Rainbringer:

Thanks for mentioning that. I have noticed my son a little more hyped up at times, mainly around when he's taking the B12 (within an hour or so), but he has also been calmer and managing his behavior better at other times. I am going to see how it goes but be aware that it might not be the right thing for him. I am trying to give it to him in the morning when I am not trying to get him relaxed for bed or something.

What is lithium orotate? Never heard of that before. Can you get that at a health food store?


----------



## Bisou

Wytchy:

I am pretty much joking about the past lives stuff, though my friends often said I must've been Mussolini or Hitler or someone awful in a past life because I have the WORST luck ever. I have also been referred to as Job.









I am the kind of person who (literally) has weeks like this:


Husband says he wants a divorce and moves out the same day. (This was when I was 24, not recently.)
Start having horrible gallbladder attacks. In extreme pain and can't stop vomiting. Have to go to ER to get pain meds and have injections of meds to stop vomiting. 
I am a grad student, so this is all during finals week.
Hard drive crashes. I am stuck in the college computer lab, sick, in severe pain, and sobbing, trying to write a final paper for a mean teacher who won't give me a break.
Come home from school, try to unlock door late at night. Deadbolt comes out of the door with key and falls in a hundred tiny pieces on the ground! I call soon-to-be ex and ask if I can stay with him for the night as I can't get in my place, and he says no.

Seriously, this was ONE week, and this isn't even the worst week I've had! This was like a medium-bad week. Ok, medium high badness.

Ohhhh, I wanted to write more, but son is crying and waking up. Will respond more later, Wytchy!


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## oceanbluemomma

I am so sorry to hear of this difficult time you have been having. I haven' t had a chance to read all the responses but absolutely understand not wanting to give your child psych meds. Sensory issues can stem from Mitochondrial dysfunction, cerebral fol ate deficiency, yeast and/or strep overgrowth in the gut, food allergies/sensitives, sensitivities to artificial dyes, preservatives, sugars, flavors, and more... There is a lot in the body that can be going on that should be addressed with blood, urine and stool testing. If the child is reacting because something is not processing correctly in the body, are you looking to address that and heal it? I am not aware of any psych med that heals(I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone with that statement). Have you considered seeing a DAN! practitioner? They are absolutely awesome at addressing these with many behaviors even all becoming within the behaviors expected for their age. This book by Bock is outstanding at explaining what is going on with today's kids' bodies: Healing the New Childhood Epidemics Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies: The Groundbreaking Program for the 4-A Disorders If you need the name of a great DAN! please let me know your area and I can get info on the closest one.

A DAN! saved my son, got language and behavior at age expectancy, attention span and more without the use of psych meds. There is a lot you can do naturally, if you are interested.


----------



## Bisou

Hi Oceanbluemomma:

My son doesn't have autism. Would you recommend some of those same things for a non-autistic child?

I agree with you that there are so many things in our world and environment that could be problematic. When I think about all of the vaccines, chemicals, pesticides, antibiotics, etc in our society today, it's really scary.

I was actually taking Wellbutrin when I was pregnant (before I knew I was pregnant), and I have often wondered if that caused any damage to my child's brain or caused him any other problems. I was also taking antibiotics (Minocycline, I think) when I found out I was pregnant. I didn't find out I was pregnant until I was about two and a half months pregnant because I never have my period regularly, so I didn't think anything when I missed!

Anyway, there are so many scary things we are exposed to. It's hard to know what could be affecting a child!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oceanbluemomma*
> 
> I am so sorry to hear of this difficult time you have been having. I haven' t had a chance to read all the responses but absolutely understand not wanting to give your child psych meds. Sensory issues can stem from Mitochondrial dysfunction, cerebral fol ate deficiency, yeast and/or strep overgrowth in the gut, food allergies/sensitives, sensitivities to artificial dyes, preservatives, sugars, flavors, and more... There is a lot in the body that can be going on that should be addressed with blood, urine and stool testing. If the child is reacting because something is not processing correctly in the body, are you looking to address that and heal it? I am not aware of any psych med that heals(I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone with that statement). Have you considered seeing a DAN! practitioner? They are absolutely awesome at addressing these with many behaviors even all becoming within the behaviors expected for their age. This book by Bock is outstanding at explaining what is going on with today's kids' bodies: Healing the New Childhood Epidemics Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies: The Groundbreaking Program for the 4-A Disorders If you need the name of a great DAN! please let me know your area and I can get info on the closest one.
> 
> A DAN! saved my son, got language and behavior at age expectancy, attention span and more without the use of psych meds. There is a lot you can do naturally, if you are interested.


----------



## Bisou

Wytchy:

Thanks for sharing your story about your son's vax injury. So sorry.

My son had some severe reactions to the pertussis vaccine. It was pretty scary. He nearly had seizures from it. I have had really mixed feelings about vaccines because I know some of them have nearly eliminated diseases like polio, but I also think we've gone WAY overboard. It's hard for me to know what's right or wrong when it comes to vaccines. I definitely think we give kids way too many vaccines and way too many at once. I've also read some information from one of the Dr Sears (I think one of the sons) who said that everyone is worried about mercury, but what he really worries about is the amount of aluminum in vaccines.

I don't think anything to do with health or medicine should be able to be a money-making business. It should all be non-profit only. Pay the people developing the medicines a good salary, but no one should be making millions off of getting us to buy drugs or give our kids shots. Seriously! When profit comes into it that way, it can only lead to bad consequences. It ends up with us all getting this distorted information and because they are making tons of money, we don't know who to believe. I've seen very convincing evidence on both sides of the vaccine debate and it just leaves me thinking "I don't know WHAT to believe!"

I know my son is due for his next set of shots and we keep getting these notices from the school that he needs to update them. I don't know what to do. I know I can give him the DTAP without the P, but I don't know what I even want to give him. I can opt out for "religious reasons" or whatever they have you put on the form, but I am not sure what the right option is for us. Maybe I need to do some more research.

I know that most of us grew up with vaccines, and I don't think we had as many problems as the kids today. The prevalence of autism in particular is scary to me because I don't think it's just better diagnosis, as some people argue. I think there is something going on in our environment or vaccines or something that is causing this increase in autism.

Anyway, thanks for the detail and the remote healing link. I will try that!


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## D_McG

I do understand your frustration but please understand that for over a YEAR you have been posting continuously about your child's awful mental state. It's getting worse as far as I can see. Nobody here is gung ho about psychiatric medications in general (I don't know where you are getting that) but it's very clear that really nothing you're doing is working and this is a child in severe distress. Lots of people can identify with your situation because they have children or other loved ones acting similarly. It's clear that you are working hard to find a solution but frustrating that you're not open to anything outside of your small corner of 'natural' solutions (do I even want to know what remote healing is?).

I wish your son all the best. May he somehow find the help he needs before he does any more damage to himself or anyone else.


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## wytchywoman

Bisou do you live in a state that has vax exemption forms? I believe every state allows for exemptions, it just depends on what kind. There is medical, which would cover only one vax that the child is allergic to, and then there is religious or philosophical or both. I can't remember which state you live in, but if you want to PM me I can find out what the process is to get an exemption in your state.


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## wytchywoman

D McG, remote healing is reiki. It can be done across distance. Perhaps you might be open to googling it, it's not as scary as you think it is


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## pupsnelda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I do understand your frustration but please understand that for over a YEAR you have been posting continuously about your child's awful mental state. It's getting worse as far as I can see. Nobody here is gung ho about psychiatric medications in general (I don't know where you are getting that) but it's very clear that really nothing you're doing is working and this is a child in severe distress. Lots of people can identify with your situation because they have children or other loved ones acting similarly. It's clear that you are working hard to find a solution but frustrating that you're not open to anything outside of your small corner of 'natural' solutions (do I even want to know what remote healing is?).
> 
> I wish your son all the best. May he somehow find the help he needs before he does any more damage to himself or anyone else.


----------



## oceanbluemomma

Yes - any child dealing with hitting, aggression, above normal tantrums, bloated belly, diarrhea, constipation, red ears, red cheeks, red under eyes, dark eyes, funky skin stuff, ADD/ADHD, been diagnosed with bipolar, sensory, aspie, -----really anything you should look at those things - priority one - a stool test. It tells what good flora is in the gut, what bad flora is present, bacteria, strep, yeast and more. Another great read is : Children With Starving Brains: A Medical Treatment Guide for Autism Spectrum Disorder, Second Edition ...........Don't let the word Autism freak you out - these doctors happen to be those who have dealt with the above symptoms in all kinds of children but since Autism is a noted epidemic - well catchy title works for us dealing with the epidemic.

I would suggestion you look at the following: Look at what is being consumed by your child? Most artificial dyes, preservatives, and flavors are made from chemical derived from Petroleum-yep you are eating a form of oil. High Fructose Corn Syrup can last on your tongue for up to 7 days -causing those lovely sweet cravings and desires. HFCS also comes with a serving of mercury, lets say a bonus of the toxic process to make it. Food Allergies and sensitives are huge- gluten is huge and has been modified and "Monsantoed" in ways our bowels can' t handle, milk is the same way. What environmental factors are there (live by a highway, power lines, coal plant, cleaning products - tons of chlorine and fluoride in the water out here)? Family story is very important as well - bowel issues, depression, anxiety, skin conditions, allergies, cancers, thyroid issue, and more all are associated in someway to your immune system -it is not all neuro. 80% of your immune system is in your bowel, so most of the time their are problems with both. Ask yourself "does my child stare off even for 5 seconds, like they are not even aware of the world? (possible absentee seizure) It happens that fast and without a single body movement. What else??

Your prenatal history is important and hindsight so don't guilt yourself about what you didn't know, educate yourself for tomorrow and the future.

Now I am not a doctor, but a very educated mother who has turned researcher and google med student in order to heal my son, since 99% of mainstream still thinks Autism(although we know it was vaccine induced autistic like symptoms) is a freaking checklist of behaviors when in reality you heal the issues in the body and poof the autistic symptoms disappear and the diagnosis is removed.

There is a great doc - Dr. Nomita Pothuluri understands this very well. My husband will be joining her shortly. They understand both sides of medicine - traditional and alternative. Feel free to email me if you have more questions or concerns or just want to talk.

Linda


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## oceanbluemomma

Folic acid is huge! Not absorbing this correctly is due to Cerebral Folate Antibody Receptor. Dr. Quadros out of the East Coast identified this giant problem and created a test to analyze blood for this. Spinal is the next level of testing. Guess what blocks or binds to the folate??? Animal Milk Protein ---AHHAHAHAHA! No more raw milk, cheese, goat, sheep anything milk from an animal. This is huge for your immune system as well. My son was just diagnosed with very high block receptors and has been taking colostrum for a year which has been depriving his body of much needed folate. He actually will need the broken down version of folic acid ---folinic acid at an obscenely high dose.

Google Quadros and Cerebral Folate Antibody Receptor, mind blowing stuff! Makes you wonder why more of mainstream medicine isn't paying attention to this stuff. Seriously, feeling sluggish oh just eat better and exercise or take an antibiotic you are probably dealing with a bacterial infections when all along your cells Mitochondria ---hello cell energy is on the freaking floor....Your not crazy cause you are eating better and exercising and still feel like crap there is shit going on in your body----let's test for it, find it and heal it! and get the crap out of our food and water! Okay okay off my soapbox! LOL


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## Bisou

Wow, Oceanblue. That's a LOT of information. I will look at it and see if I have any questions. Thanks!

We definitely don't do food coloring or HFCS in general. I try to stick to a vegetarian organic diet. However, we DO eat gluten and dairy. I have been thinking about cutting those out, but it would be a challenge. He also was recently tested for food allergies and came back negative for all of those, but others have said it can be an intolerance (not necessarily an allergy) causing the problem.


----------



## Bisou

I posted part of what's below on another thread that was discussing another issue my son is having, and I thought it might be good to post here. . . . . .

I am hoping not to continue a debate about meds/no meds, or whether I am not doing the right thing or not. I would prefer not to have more criticism or critique of what I am doing or not doing, or not doing enough of, or anything along those lines. That's simply not helpful to me as a person. It makes me feel defensive, hurt, and judged, and it doesn't provide anything helpful or beneficial. Criticism makes me not want to return to MDC, to not read or post on these threads anymore.

Trust me, I get MORE than enough criticism and blame from my parents. Criticism is not what I need. I am a single mom with few resources under extreme stress and with very little emotional or any other kind of support. Whenever my son acts out, my parents are furiously angry with me and attack and blame me for his behavior. My mom even said today that they were no longer going to help me and that I should give my son up for adoption. Today has been SO shitty, you don't even know. (Can I say that on MDC?) In the past MDC was the place I came to get good suggestions and some emotional support, but now it's often an equal dose (or more) of criticism, which is something I don't need. Seriously, put yourself in my place. How would you feel?

There have been a lot of mamas who've offered some great suggestions about my son over the year or so that I've posted about my son's behavioral problems. (My first post on this thread was September 2009.) However, there have also been some people who've been critical about how I am responding to my son's issues, particularly those who INSIST that my son needs medication, and some have even gone so far as to suggest that I am abusing/neglecting my son because I haven't medicated him. While I may reach the point where I decide to try this, I don't think it's the magical cure that some people think it is. And it's not without possible side effects, and very severe side effects, in some cases! My family tends to respond with severe reactions to many different kinds of medications. I am allergic to several different kinds of medications, as is my mother and several other family members. (My mom was once prescribed the vitamin niacin for high cholesterol. The first day of taking it, her face swelled up so much she looked like this woman except her face was bright red and her cheeks were more swollen! I am not kidding! We had to rush her to the ER.) I am the kind of person who gets the awful, weird side effect that no one ever gets. I am very sensitive to medications. Is it unreasonable to think my son might be the same? Isn't it reasonable to be cautious and concerned?

In any case, *I think that it's each parent's role to decide what's right for their own children. * I wouldn't criticize any of you for choosing to medicate your children, or feed them meat, or eat a non-organic diet, or not vaccinating because you think it's unsafe (or the reverse), or letting them watch TV, or drink unpasteurized milk, or whatever ways you choose to raise your child, and I would like to be given the same respect and consideration. I may think "I would never do THAT!" but I would never say that to any other parent. I think outside of giving our children proper care (food, clothing, shelter, and love) and medical treatment for obvious medical emergencies (your child is having trouble breathing, you call 911!) that most of the rest of it is up for us to decide what's right for our kids.

Yes, I have asked for help in posting about my son, but there's a big difference between offering suggestions ("I would try medication if he were my child") and criticizing someone for not choosing to follow your suggestion.


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## lifeofpeace

Have you had a professional evaluation done on your son? Forgive me but I haven't read all 25 pages of this thread but things seem really tough for you and your little one right now. I had a friend who was have some serious issues with her child and went through the alternative medicine route for a couple years with no success. She ended up at Mayo clinic and her daughter had a phyiscal issue that was the culprit and with the help of the doctor things have greatly improved. Best of luck and take care.


----------



## oceanbluemomma

I thought the MDC was an information center and to each as own on what to do with the info? Seriously - guilt! Who needs it? Us moms can do it on our own, don't need others to join in on the situation - geesh









Waiting to get help isn't helping anyone so don' t let time pass you by and make more guilt that you didn't do something sooner...

So with that said - did you have IGG panels or IGA panels done. My son has no allergies but clear sensitivities - hello yogurt+ nick's bowel =20minutes later diarrhea! I do know for myself I have to limit certain foods - like chocolate or my sugar is out of wack and I turn into "crabby mom". A lot of people try to keep a food diary - what is eaten, how much time until a b.m(sorry gross). and descriptions - smell, color, size. Now know that our lovely water in the toilet covers up a mess load as I swore to the doctors my sons poops looked just fine, no smell from the toilet to then catch one for the poop test and bam - blood in the stool and a room clearing smell (yeast).... Don't let the toilet fool you

Sounds like you eat well. Maybe consider removing gluten for a few months - yep that long. I did it cold turkey for my son and he woke in the middle of the night in horrific stomach pain for the first few nights -get gripe water-awesome e at relaxing the bowels and works fast... Gluten removal is compared to a drug user stopping cold turkey - I kid you not! Gluten has an opioid affect on the body. You can have no infractions at this time - think of someone addicted to drugs. They stop but getting even the smallest amount make the body react strongly and desire more - same with gluten - just a heads up on that. Also vegan - do you do a ton of soy? Really limit that the peptide in soy reacts the same as gluten also has the estrogen issue.

Sorry if I am rambling at this point. Hope the info helps!

If anyone is medicating their child or thinking about it Frontline did a great series on The Medicated Child - 6 series on Youtube...


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## a-sorta-fairytale

Hi, i have only scanned most of these 25 pages. But, i was wondering if you had tried homeopathics? There are many homeopathics and you can search in cetain databases with specific details to get the right one. Also, Rescue remedy works wonders for me when i am in a rage it comes in drops and also a spray that my kids love.


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## joyfulheart

Oh my, mama, my heart goes out to you and your little boy. I wish you strength to keep being the good mama you are. I know it's not easy.









I also highly recommend finding a classical homeopath. I had excellent results with my young ds when he was diagnosed with sensory issues. I am happy to say he is doing just great now.

Also, I think it's worth a shot to try an elimination diet. Or find a naturopath to help you on your journey. If I remember reading correctly, you had bad luck with naturopaths, but maybe in the Finding My Tribe section here, you could find a good one?

Many blessings to you and your boy. I wish you the very best. --joyfulheart


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## newmum35

Quote:


> I just had a thought. I HAVE had my son vaccinated (though haven't completed his most recent vax set because I got more concerned about side effects), and he did have a severe reaction to the DTAP vaccine (twice). His doc thought it was probably pertussis that caused the problem. He had a 106 temp, if I remember correctly. I wonder if he had a vaccine injury? Could that cause behavior/brain problems? Does anyone know anything about that? I guess I should check that forum. Is there anything that can be done, if that's the case?
Click to expand...

You really need to visit the vax forum more often, read the past archives and start a thread there with a link to this thread so people understand where you're coming from. I would guess they would refer you to a good DAN dr who can help any vax related issues your son might have. They could help with your exemptions too.

That was actually the first thing I asked you a year ago (whether or not your son was vaxed) I do think it could be a major contributor as well as the abuse he suffered. I don't recall you mentioning a serious vax reaction before (106? holy cow!) but I hope it was jotted on his charts, it might have got him a possible medical exemption for at least that one. My own son had no fever or fussiness at all but seriously regressed in potty and babbling for one month after one of his as an infant (we did EC) - and we only did ONE that day (it was Hib), it was his 2nd shot, he did do well with the DTaP and we finished that series... he hasnt been vaxed since 7months and is over 3 now. I can't imagine what having 6 at once or doing the usual schedule might have done. Autism is in my family, I feel we might have dodged a bullet there.

H


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## Bisou

Thanks everyone for the helpful posts. I will be posting an update later when I am not so swamped with the holidays. Things have been up and down for us, and I am just hoping we can get through Christmas without any big blow ups.

Happy holidays to everyone!


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## Bisou

A quick reply to the person asking about whether my son has had any professional evaluation.

He is currently receiving treatment from the following professionals:


Child psychologist (has seen for over two years)
Child psychiatrist
Child trauma therapist (specializing in EMDR)
Pediatrician
Behavioral pediatrician
Occupational therapist
Acupuncturist, Doctor of Chinese medicine


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## sewchris2642

Quick question: do these professionals consult with each other about your son? They need to all be on the same page with your son. Otherwise, they could very well be undoing what good the others are doing and negating everything. they need to be all working in the same direction.


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## Bisou

Hi Sewchris:

Yes, they do consult with each other more or less. I also always double check things with everyone.

Merry Christmas --- or Happy Holidays if you don't celebrate Christmas!


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## Surfacing

How are things going now, Mama?


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