# "there is no try"



## galincognito (Nov 23, 2007)

i overheard a woman saying to a preschool aged child "there is no try; you do or you don't do."

i'm just curious what others think of this statement. while i can see it applying in certain circumstances (ie. an obediance situation where the child says they are "trying" to follow the rule but they "forgot"), i'm not sure about the statement as a life philosophy sort of thing. to me it seems rather discouraging; if i can't do it then i might as well not do it since trying doesn't matter.









i'm just interested in what others think when they hear this statement.


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## jojojojojo (Feb 4, 2009)

Is the child a Star Wars fan? Sounds like the mom was just saying what Yoda said to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jojojojojo* 
Is the child a Star Wars fan? Sounds like the mom was just saying what Yoda said to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.









:
We all say it once in a while. We also throw out quotes from Star Trek and Pride and Prejudice on a daily basis.







:


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## NewDirections (Jul 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jojojojojo* 
Is the child a Star Wars fan? Sounds like the mom was just saying what Yoda said to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.

I was just going to ask that









I say that quote to my husband all the time. He hates it


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I had to add, DP actually does Yoda voice when he says that particular phrase.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

"Do, or do not. There is no try." I think it's funny. Although I kind of hope the preschooler didn't watch _Empire Strikes Back_ him or herself.









The whole point of the quote is that often we mentally block ourselves thinking that we can't do things, when really we could if we'd stop dithering about it. It's very much about staying in touch with one's power as an individual. Not something most preschoolers need to hear! I'm guessing she was kind of making a joke out of it (at least to herself).


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

All I hear is Yoda..."Do or do not, there is no try"...







DH is a Star Wars geek.

Anyway, I find it to be an empowering statement - do it all the way or don't do it at all. When I was training for my first 5k (which I ran the day before my + pg test with DD2 - LOL), that helped get me through long runs, dorky as that sounds.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

ITA with the Star Wars geek diagnosis, but also with the feeling that it's not actually a useful thing to tell a little kid. Sometimes the way we go from not doing to doing is to try and fail a whole lot.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

I have never seen Star Wars (I know, I know...) but I have said something simialr to my seven year old. I agree that if I were to really think it through, it probably isn't the best encouragement of trying to do new things...but when I have said it I have been really frustrated with him and/or his behavior.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Personally I don't see what good can come from a statement like that. If you can either do it or not do, instead of try to do it and accept failure as a possible outcome then what is the use of doing something you don't know if you can do?

I didn't just sit down at the piano one day and start playing. I tried and failed many times. What kept me at it was knowing that the more I try, even if I fail, the better I will get and eventually I will be able to do it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
ITA with the Star Wars geek diagnosis, but also with the feeling that it's not actually a useful thing to tell a little kid. Sometimes the way we go from not doing to doing is to try and fail a whole lot.

Oh true.

I came back to this thread because I'm still laughing.
















My second round of thought is basically that we don't have to turn everything we say to our preschoolers into a life philosophy.

I do quote to my son inappropriately (or over-appropriately!) sometimes. Example: he is locked in a battle of wills with me. My husband enters and everything is suddenly roses. "Now is the winter of our discontent // Made glorious summer by this son of York."

ETA: I'm laughing more. Maybe you have to have been a Star Wars geek to get it - but Yoda is definitely not anti-trying. He's actually anti-WHINING.

The whole thing is that Luke is whining that Yoda wants him to do something IMPOSSIBLE, boo hoo (Luke is prone to whining) and also something that he thinks is beyond his potential. Yoda's point is that it's not impossible. Actually the more I'm analysing this the more I think maybe it is appropriate for a preschooler.























Then, or a bit later (I forget the sequence) Yoda does the "impossible" and Luke says "I don't believe it" and then Yoda says "That is why you fail."


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## SunshineSwirl (Apr 28, 2009)

My mother tried saying this to me recently, but she wasn't quoting Star Wars. She learned it in this self help thing called LandMark. It infuriated me, because it was about changing my attiude, and she used a story of the lady said something about trying and the woman on the stage said "try" to take a tissue from this tissue box. The woman did. The lady on stage told her no, "try." Obviously in this circumstance you either do or don't, and when I tried explaning to my mother that some circumstances are do or don't, there are also others like changing attitude that will take removing the old habit and replacing it with new, thus trying, since habits are inbedded in us till repeatedly broken. My mother didn't like my response and continued with do or don't. You should find out if the teacher has taken LandMark classes, because my mother is always thinking it's okay to pull LandMark stuff on my children to 'start them in the right direction early.'


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

It might be said in Kung Fu Panda too.

But I might be remembering incorrectly.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

My mom had lots of sayings like this, though she didn't get them from Star Wars.

She said, "either you do it or you don't. Trying doesn't matter." "If you're going to do something, then do it right or don't do it at all." "Don't do a half-a^% job." or the variant "If you're going to half-a#$ it, then don't do it at all." Though that might be appropriate for an adult in a frustrating moment, I remember her saying that to me at 8 because I couldn't properly iron pleats in my skirt.

I don't know how the mom you saw said it, so I don't know if it was a joke or frustrating or mean. I felt crummy about it as a child, though consequently my sister and I were really good at everything we did. Once I became an adult, though, I fell apart because I never had any real concept of what I liked because there'd been so.much.pressure to be the best at everything.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineSwirl* 
My mother tried saying this to me recently, but she wasn't quoting Star Wars. She learned it in this self help thing called LandMark. It infuriated me, because it was about changing my attiude, and she used a story of the lady said something about trying and the woman on the stage said "try" to take a tissue from this tissue box. The woman did. The lady on stage told her no, "try." Obviously in this circumstance you either do or don't, and when I tried explaning to my mother that some circumstances are do or don't, there are also others like changing attitude that will take removing the old habit and replacing it with new, thus trying, since habits are inbedded in us till repeatedly broken. My mother didn't like my response and continued with do or don't. You should find out if the teacher has taken LandMark classes, because my mother is always thinking it's okay to pull LandMark stuff on my children to 'start them in the right direction early.'

If someone used to tissue thing with me, I would just tell them to go out and bring me a car sized bolder barehanded.

I'd like to see a "do" for that one.


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## trancechylde (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Personally I don't see what good can come from a statement like that. If you can either do it or not do, instead of try to do it and accept failure as a possible outcome then what is the use of doing something you don't know if you can do?

I didn't just sit down at the piano one day and start playing. I tried and failed many times. What kept me at it was knowing that the more I try, even if I fail, the better I will get and eventually I will be able to do it.











Yes, this.

I get the whole philosophy behind the statement, but it's a little heavy for a preschooler isn't it?


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
ITA with the Star Wars geek diagnosis, but also with the feeling that it's not actually a useful thing to tell a little kid. Sometimes the way we go from not doing to doing is to try and fail a whole lot.

That's the "do not" of the phrase. You are to do until you are successful. Every time you do not (i.e. fail), you are to do again. And keep doing until you do it. That's the part that Luke didn't get. Everything up to that moment that Yoda told him to do, he did it. Now Yoda told him to do something that Luke "knew" was impossible. So he really didn't try at all. There is no way to really comment on the use of the phrase in the op. There is not enough information to get the context of the phrase.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I also thought of Star Wars.

It could be approrpriate in some cases, but overall, I think it misses the point of why we do "try" even though we might not be able to do something perfectly.

I also agree that it is going to be lost on the majority of preschoolers! Even if the child responds to a request- say, "You need to respect [child] and what she asks, please," with "I'll try," a better response would be, "Do you think it's going to be hard? Will you need help?" etc.


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## greenmamapagan (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Personally I don't see what good can come from a statement like that. If you can either do it or not do, instead of try to do it and accept failure as a possible outcome then what is the use of doing something you don't know if you can do?

I didn't just sit down at the piano one day and start playing. I tried and failed many times. What kept me at it was knowing that the more I try, even if I fail, the better I will get and eventually I will be able to do it.

Yep.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
My mom had lots of sayings like this, though she didn't get them from Star Wars.

She said, "either you do it or you don't. Trying doesn't matter." "If you're going to do something, then do it right or don't do it at all." "Don't do a half-a^% job." or the variant "If you're going to half-a#$ it, then don't do it at all." Though that might be appropriate for an adult in a frustrating moment, I remember her saying that to me at 8 because I couldn't properly iron pleats in my skirt.

I don't know how the mom you saw said it, so I don't know if it was a joke or frustrating or mean. *I felt crummy about it as a child*, though consequently my sister and I were really good at everything we did. Once I became an adult, though, I fell apart because I never had any real concept of what I liked because there'd been so.much.pressure to be the best at everything.

My mother also had a lot of similar things to say and yep, I felt pretty crummy about them too.


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trancechylde* 









Yes, this.

I get the whole philosophy behind the statement, but it's a little heavy for a preschooler isn't it?


Yes, this!! ITA


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Misquoting Star Wars to a child? Horrendous. He'll grow up saying it wrong and his friends will laugh at him.









Other than that I don't really have a beef with the phrase. I quote all sorts of things whether or not I actually mean or believe them... "So's your face", for instance.







And I do have several distinct childhood memories of half-heartedly "trying" to find a lost item and coming back whining "I can't fiiiiind it" - I suspect it would have been very good for me to adopt a results-oriented trying-doesn't-count-find-the-darn-hairbrush-already philosophy.









On a purely geeky level I'd also like to point out that Yoda's "There is no try" was meant to educate Luke on the non-importance of matter. Luke was "trying" to raise the ship - straining and getting all agitated because he thought the size of the ship made it harder to lift than the boulders. That wasn't the way. He was supposed to let go, let the Force flow through him and realise that "size matters not" - that's how Yoda did it, calmly and without apparent exertion. Again, possibly not the best message to teach your kid, but I don't think "there is no try" can justly be applied to piano playing. At least, not non-Jedi piano playing. ("Feel the Strauss!")


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

If it was a Star Wars thing, I see nothing wrong with it at all.

For instance, in this setting:
"Put your shoes on, honey"
"Ok, I'll try"

*Mom jokingly quotes Star Wars because it made her think of it*

I don't really see how it's a big philosophy thing, or really wrong in any way.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

We have it on the inside of our toilet door.







: And yes, it's a life philosophy, and yes, it's something we teach the kids to live by, and yes, darned right my preschooler watches Empire Strikes Back.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
That's the "do not" of the phrase. You are to do until you are successful. Every time you do not (i.e. fail), you are to do again. And keep doing until you do it. That's the part that Luke didn't get. Everything up to that moment that Yoda told him to do, he did it. Now Yoda told him to do something that Luke "knew" was impossible. So he really didn't try at all.

That is a great way to explain it.

I LOVE "do or do not; there is no try". Try is defeatist; it assumes you might not do it. I want my kids to have a positive attitude. Of course sometimes (lots of times) we fall short; we have to make another attempt. But I don't think four is too early to start understanding that "whether you say you can or you can't, you're right".

We have a paperweight that says "what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?" I love that too.

My first instinct on reading the OP was that it is great for adults but not kids. But upon further reading of this thread, I think it is good for just about everyone.

I've always said that people who say they are going to "try" for natural childbirth are quite unlikely to get it. You read, you take classes, you prepare mentally and physically including practicing relaxation, you surround yourself with people who are supportive, you make VERY careful choices in regards to location of birth and your care provider. I never said try. I was committed. In my gut, I knew it was going to happen. We had a couple of unexpected challenges - but I had the right people around me, we were in the right places, and it all did end up well. Not that that is a guarantee! But you up your odds DRAMATICALLY.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

We have it on the inside of our toilet door.
That's either coincidentally or intentionally brilliant.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I heard this comment growing up. I think even a child who is a star wars fan could _potentially_ be hurt by this statement. It's very upsetting and discouraging as a child to be told that you aren't trying when you are, or that trying isn't good enough (I don't want to hear you'll try. either do it or dont.) (and there were consequences if I didn't, perhaps that was another factor) I grew up feeling like I ever did was good enough and it really hurt that my trying was not enough. I have to say, I would have been happy with my parents if they had at least tried to be compassionate with me.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I heard this comment growing up. I think even a child who is a star wars fan could _potentially_ be hurt by this statement. It's very upsetting and discouraging as a child to be told that you aren't trying when you are, or that trying isn't good enough (I don't want to hear you'll try. either do it or dont.) (and there were consequences if I didn't, perhaps that was another factor) I grew up feeling like I ever did was good enough and it really hurt that my trying was not enough. I have to say, I would have been happy with my parents if they had at least tried to be compassionate with me.

Perhaps for an adult or older teenager, this could be a useful statement, but for a preschooler? I don't think so. It's very discouraging. I think a better phrase is "If you don't succeed, try try again". Like the piano example, you won't play Fur Elise on your first try, but with lots of "tries", you can. I think "Do or do not, there is no try" to a preschooler can lead to one of two possibilities, a perfectionist attitude (I won't do it until I can get it perfect) or a defeatist attitude (I can't do it right anyways, so why bother trying?)


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## nerdymom (Mar 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jojojojojo* 
Is the child a Star Wars fan? Sounds like the mom was just saying what Yoda said to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Oh true.

I came back to this thread because I'm still laughing.
















My second round of thought is basically that we don't have to turn everything we say to our preschoolers into a life philosophy.

I do quote to my son inappropriately (or over-appropriately!) sometimes. Example: he is locked in a battle of wills with me. My husband enters and everything is suddenly roses. "Now is the winter of our discontent // Made glorious summer by this son of York."

ETA: I'm laughing more. Maybe you have to have been a Star Wars geek to get it - but Yoda is definitely not anti-trying. He's actually anti-WHINING.

The whole thing is that Luke is whining that Yoda wants him to do something IMPOSSIBLE, boo hoo (Luke is prone to whining) and also something that he thinks is beyond his potential. Yoda's point is that it's not impossible. Actually the more I'm analysing this the more I think maybe it is appropriate for a preschooler.























Then, or a bit later (I forget the sequence) Yoda does the "impossible" and Luke says "I don't believe it" and then Yoda says "That is why you fail."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
That's the "do not" of the phrase. You are to do until you are successful. Every time you do not (i.e. fail), you are to do again. And keep doing until you do it. That's the part that Luke didn't get. Everything up to that moment that Yoda told him to do, he did it. Now Yoda told him to do something that Luke "knew" was impossible. So he really didn't try at all. There is no way to really comment on the use of the phrase in the op. There is not enough information to get the context of the phrase.









: geeks of the world untie! I am forever quoting star wars to DH (my favorite being "stay on target, stay on target" whenever he starts talking about some off-the-wall scheme he and his coworkers thought up. We quote SW, Fight club, and South Park *a lot*. Sometimes we say things to DS too.







Right now, DS is chewy, because his answers are not always discernable.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

My 5 year old would have thought I was the best mom ever if I quoted Star Wars in an appropriate situation (especially since I've never seen any of them...he has and has memorized nearly every line of every episode due to his autism photographic memory for movies)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
darned right my preschooler watches Empire Strikes Back.

LOL...Brandon likes that one, but prefers Revenge of the Sith (he calls it "revenge of the sniff", which I think is the cutest thing ever.







: )


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *galincognito* 
i overheard a woman saying to a preschool aged child "there is no try; you do or you don't do."

i'm just curious what others think of this statement. while i can see it applying in certain circumstances (ie. an obediance situation where the child says they are "trying" to follow the rule but they "forgot"), i'm not sure about the statement as a life philosophy sort of thing. to me it seems rather discouraging; if i can't do it then i might as well not do it since trying doesn't matter.









i'm just interested in what others think when they hear this statement.

I also think of Yoda.

I'm not sure it was being used in a life philosophy sense by the woman to the young child. It may have been a specific thing or a family joke.

I think if you decide to take the statement as your life philosophy it can be uplifting and helpful. However, if it is something that is told to you by someone else I think it can be discouraging rather than helpful especially to a young child.


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## anywaybecause (Jul 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I had to add, DP actually does Yoda voice when he says that particular phrase.









oh, good . . . we're not the only ones who do this!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Not to overthink it, but I also think the "do or do not, there is no try" has something to do with taking the Self out of the equation. It's not about failure or success--you either do it or you don't do it. SewChris said, in Star Wars Luke thought it was impossible, so he didn't "do"--you either destroy the Battlestar (or whatever that thing was called) or you don't!

It is a little heavy for a pre-schooler but also, I wonder if this lady hears "I'm tryyyyying" 700 times a day and it's become her way to keep her sanity.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Again, possibly not the best message to teach your kid, but I don't think "there is no try" can justly be applied to piano playing. At least, not non-Jedi piano playing. ("Feel the Strauss!")









I actually laughed out loud when I read this.


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## jennydecki (Jun 8, 2009)

Personally, I think preschool is too early to turn the world into a black-and-white place of failure or success. (Even if it does sound adorable in the Yoda voice LOL)

My girls are perfectionists that tend to get really frustrated if they don't complete a task *just the way* they want to complete it. That means for me, a message of "but you did so great it doesn't have to be perfect" is a necessity.

If the kids are laid back, I'm sure it won't break them - but my kids aren't laid back so it made me gasp a little to hear someone saying that to a kid - but as long as it's not my kid I can see that it may not be such a bad thing.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I say to my daycare kids. "Are you crying? There's no crying in baseball". (league of their own)

It makes no sense. But, now they say it too.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I think we all say goofy things to our kids. My line (since I teach at the early childhood level) is "don't worry, I'm a professional" (said while I'm lifting my own toddler onto the changing table, or tying a shoelace). Now, do I mean to make a political statement about the level of professionalism of Early Childhood Workers or to imply to my child that caregiving is best done by paid professionals, or that I'm a faster shoe tier (OK, there is no way to spell this word that looks remotely right to me tire? Tyer? Tier? Individual who ties shoes?) than those who just "dabble" in it as a hobby? No, I don't.

So, I can imagine that if I said to my child one day "remember to be polite to Grandma", and he said "I'll try" that Yoda might come out of my mouth. Or if I sent him into his bedroom to find a shoe and he came back and said he "tried" to find it (and I knew it was sitting on his bed, because I just saw it, and if he spent more than 30 seconds in the room he'd see it), I might say the same thing. That doesn't mean that I expect my child to wholeheartedly embrace Jedi philosophy. I also tell him "May the fork be with you" when I set the table.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
We have it on the inside of our toilet door.







: And yes, it's a life philosophy, and yes, it's something we teach the kids to live by, and yes, darned right my preschooler watches Empire Strikes Back.









:, except its not on our toilet.

We often say that we'll "try" when we really mean is "I can't" or "I'm going to quit when its gets hard." I didn't tell myself that I was going to try to breastfeed or VBAC, I told myself that I was going to _do_ it. It doesn't mean that failure isn't an option, just don't talk yourself out of something before giving an attempt everything you've got.

And if its beyond a preschooler's understanding, then it will just go over his head, no harm, no foul.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Misquoting Star Wars to a child? Horrendous. He'll grow up saying it wrong and his friends will laugh at him.










laughup


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Not to overthink it, but I also think the "do or do not, there is no try" has something to do with taking the Self out of the equation. It's not about failure or success--you either do it or you don't do it. SewChris said, in Star Wars Luke thought it was impossible, so he didn't "do"--you either destroy the Battlestar (or whatever that thing was called) or you don't!

It is a little heavy for a pre-schooler but also, I wonder if this lady hears "I'm tryyyyying" 700 times a day and it's become her way to keep her sanity.

if so, she should be happy her child tries that much! If I was hearing I'm trying 700 times a day I would ask "what is stopping you from doing it? Can I help you in any way?" sure, not everyone things that way, doesnt' mean that its any less harder for a child to hear "try harder" or "well you aren't trying hard enough" etc. Sometimes it may look like the child isn't really trying, or trying hard enough, or that its something easy that just needs to be done no trying involved. that is our perception of the situation, and not always the child. so those comments can only be a hindrance. (of course, i do see how said in jest when the child knows its a joke and is a star wars fan can be different)


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I say to my daycare kids. "Are you crying? There's no crying in baseball". (league of their own)

It makes no sense. But, now they say it too.

Omgosh. My family and I say that ALL THE TIME.







My husband hates that movie because I watched it too much, oops








.

I think it's a good philosophy (if that's how she meant it) and like pp's has said, if it goes over the preschooler's head, no harm no foul. But, it's definitely something we are trying to teach our 6 year old. She has a very defeatist attitude about things. It's sad, but totally ot. I don't think it's a horrible thing to say.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

a horrible thing to say, and a horrible thing to hear, are two very different things. So is a horrible thing to do, and a horrible thing to feel. Remember this when talking ad dealing with children especially. Their minds are very different from our own.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I also tell him "May the fork be with you" when I set the table.

I LOVE that! Might have to use that one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
We often say that we'll "try" when we really mean is "I can't" or "I'm going to quit when its gets hard." I didn't tell myself that I was going to try to breastfeed or VBAC, I told myself that I was going to _do_ it. It doesn't mean that failure isn't an option, just don't talk yourself out of something before giving an attempt everything you've got.

Thank you!! This exactly!


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

my kids say that they will try when they dont want to do it at all. they think saying "i'll try" will get them out of doing it. esp when i know they can do it. it aggravates me. i have said there is no trying b/c i get so frustrated about it. the 5 r old says it all the time. ususally accompanied by a loud whine. it is the same whine she uses when she says she "cant do it".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I guess we have a different idea of what "try" means in this house. Because here "try" doesn't mean "I'm not going to do it because I know I can't". Here "try" means "I'm going do the best I can and see what the outcome is."


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I guess we have a different idea of what "try" means in this house. Because here "try" doesn't mean "I'm not going to do it because I know I can't". Here "try" means "I'm going do the best I can and see what the outcome is."

same here. I don't know what try meant to my parents growing up, maybe my parents meant it the same way as funkymama, but when I was growing up when I said try I mean what you just said. And that is what I try to instill trying meaning with my own kids.

Nothing wrong with trying meaning what funkymama means either, if thats what it means her family. it just wasn't clear in my own family, so if I was going to go with that meaning I would make sure that is what my children felt the word meant as well.

I cant imagine a child telling their parent they will try if they understand that in their family try means I cant or i'll give up when it gets hard, so off the bad I would assume my child meant try in a different way then that.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i think "try" can often be a cop out. giving oneself the option of not succeeding. or even an expectation. i see it in my son sometimes. if i ask him to do something and he says "ok i'll try", 10 times out of 10 he will come back to me and say "i tried but i couldn't do it". he uses that phrase when he knows he has no real intention of DOING it. it's an easy out. an excuse. i can just say "i tried" and she can't fault me for not doing it.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

I observe my children and know when they really try and would never tell them that they didn't give their all, when they did. But when DS says he "tried" to find his shoes that were 2 feet in front of him, that's a "do or do not, there is no try" moment.

We quote movies and literature and use hyperbole often in our house. My kids wouldn't take a quote from Yoda literally.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Misquoting Star Wars to a child? Horrendous. He'll grow up saying it wrong and his friends will laugh at him.










Or use the misquote to derail the discussion away from the original subject.

Chris


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I heard this comment growing up. I think even a child who is a star wars fan could _potentially_ be hurt by this statement. It's very upsetting and discouraging as a child to be told that you aren't trying when you are, or that trying isn't good enough (I don't want to hear you'll try. either do it or dont.) (and there were consequences if I didn't, perhaps that was another factor) I grew up feeling like I ever did was good enough and it really hurt that my trying was not enough. I have to say, I would have been happy with my parents if they had at least tried to be compassionate with me.

However we don't know if that was the case posted by the op. It could very well have been a case of the child not being able to "find" his/her shoes when they are right in front of him. Or not being able to tie his shoes this time when he has been successfully tying them for months.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
i think "try" can often be a cop out. giving oneself the option of not succeeding. or even an expectation. i see it in my son sometimes. if i ask him to do something and he says "ok i'll try", 10 times out of 10 he will come back to me and say "i tried but i couldn't do it". he uses that phrase when he knows he has no real intention of DOING it. it's an easy out. an excuse. i can just say "i tried" and she can't fault me for not doing it.

Yes! And I think moms can fairly easily distinguish an honest attempt at something a child can't do yet from a half-hearted attempt to do something the child didn't really want to do in the first place.

In a literal sense, "do or do not; there is no try" is cruel to a young child in the first situation. I think that is what is bothering some posters. But we can tell the difference between the situations. And most kids above a certain age can understand what the Yoda quote means. So, put me in the camp with it is fine to say that to kids!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
However we don't know if that was the case posted by the op. It could very well have been a case of the child not being able to "find" his/her shoes when they are right in front of him. Or not being able to tie his shoes this time when he has been successfully tying them for months.

Guess I don't see the harm in saying to a child in that situation, even when its obvious to you they aren't trying, "What is preventing you from finding your shoes?" Instead of implying they arent even trying. Even if they aren't really trying, which you cant know even if it seems obvious to you they arent. Perhaps part of their trying is to first try to get around the feelings that prevent them from wanting to look. Perhaps in that situation they know right where there shoes are, but are trying to get attention. If so, why? What is bothering them? I'd want to know, not just shrug it off, or accuse them of not really trying.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

...but the whole point of that statement, imo, is that there *is* no try. It can actually be encouraging if you think of it that way. Even if you *fail* (whatever failing means) you still did it -- you may not have done it well, or perfectly, or the way you wanted, but you did it.

I have said that to my daughter -- not that exact quote, but in a roundabout way. I think, like most things, it is not what you say but how you say it. I haven't said it in a punitive way, or a shaming way, or whatever. My intent was to say it in a positive, you-don't-have-to-have-mastered-it-to-have-done-it type way.

At least that is what that quote means to me. If you are "trying it", you _are_ doing it -- even if you are doing it "wrong" (for lack of a better word).

So I do believe there is no try. There is only to do or do not.


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## kkhan (Jan 14, 2009)

Listened to a Hypnobabies instructor say this a couple days ago... wasn't sure how I felt about it. I got why she used it but in reality sometimes mommas try their dardnest and birth doesn't go the way they want. Seems a little unfair to use language like that in that case. Also seems rediculous to say it to a child.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I also tell him "May the fork be with you" when I set the table.

I thought *I* was the only one who said that!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It sounds like a statement that was said in the context of a conversation where it made sense. I can see using a comment like this about doing things like driving an hour one way to go to a fair or see a friend. If we go we will stay and make the drive worth it, we wouldn't just try going for a few minutes and then turn around and leave.

I also think that kids tend to get the parents immediate meaning rather than the philosophical meaning that some adults may see in the statement. I think that pretty much every statement can have a horrible philosophical meaning, but when you are parenting in the moment you don't always have the time or the desire to think deeply about every little possible meaning. I think reflection is a great thing, but it can be taken to an unreasonable point where you second guess yourself to much and are to worried about what you may say to be effective at all. I have found that there is often not time to do more than say something and hope my meaning comes through.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
...but the whole point of that statement, imo, is that there *is* no try. It can actually be encouraging if you think of it that way. Even if you *fail* (whatever failing means) you still did it -- you may not have done it well, or perfectly, or the way you wanted, but you did it.

I have said that to my daughter -- not that exact quote, but in a roundabout way. I think, like most things, it is not what you say but how you say it. I haven't said it in a punitive way, or a shaming way, or whatever. My intent was to say it in a positive, you-don't-have-to-have-mastered-it-to-have-done-it type way.

At least that is what that quote means to me. If you are "trying it", you _are_ doing it -- even if you are doing it "wrong" (for lack of a better word).

So I do believe there is no try. There is only to do or do not.

If you "do it and failed" then you didn't do it because "it" is not done. You tried to to do and failed. Which is a very common occurance in the real world. People try things all the time, give it their best and fail. "There is not try" implies that they simply had not really done their best or they would have done it.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Without knowing the sitaution the kids level of communcation skills ect I really can't answer.

ME: Okay DD time to do your math home work..
DD: Okay mommy I'll try..
Me: "there is no try; you do or you don't do."















: Thats a lot of pressure I could mean it as yes its time and yes we will do it but it gives an idea that a mistake is unacceptable....

Me: DD time to pick up your stuffed animals and put them in the basket...
DD: okay mommy I'll try...
ME "there is no try; you do or you don't do."








maybe a weird set of words but in this case it is more "true" shes doesn't need to excert effort in picking up a stuffed monkey. There is nothing to try its just or don't do....

Deanna


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If you "do it and failed" then you didn't do it because "it" is not done. You tried to to do and failed. Which is a very common occurance in the real world. People try things all the time, give it their best and fail. "There is not try" implies that they simply had not really done their best or they would have done it.

I disagree









If I ask my daughter to put on her shoes and she puts them on the wrong feet, or puts them on with her heels hanging out, or puts one shoe on that doesn't match the other shoe -- the only thing she *failed* to do was to do it the way I expected or wanted. She still did it.... if I walked in five minutes later and she didn't have them on, she didn't do it. Even if she couldn't find them, but looked for them.

I think the strong feelings with *do or not do* is tied up in expectation of perfection, or an assumption that shaming is happening, or pressure or something (which doesn't happen in our home).

If a woman wants to give birth naturally, and winds up with an emergency c-section -- she didn't give birth naturally...and she did. She did birth naturally until the c-section, she didn't end up with a completely natural birth. This doesn't in any way negate her efforts, intentions, or where her spirit was at.

If I want to get a job, and I put in a good resume, and ace the interview -- either I did or did not get the job. I did or did not prepare. I did or did not have hopes on getting it. I didn't "try" to get it, I did or did not get it









I get that this concept doesn't resonate with some people and I am fine with that.

It isn't as though the word *try* never finds its way into my vocabulary or anything, but at the same time I think *try* can hinder in many cases more than it helps.

When you *try* to do something, there is a big window that makes it okay for you to fail at doing it. When you do or not do, you either did...or didn't do it.... or did AND didn't do it.

So, I don't necessarily believe it is do *or* not do, but rather, there is only do *and* not do --- which seems a minor (but is really not) distinction.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I disagree









If I ask my daughter to put on her shoes and she puts them on the wrong feet, or puts them on with her heels hanging out, or puts one shoe on that doesn't match the other shoe -- the only thing she *failed* to do was to do it the way I expected or wanted. She still did it.... if I walked in five minutes later and she didn't have them on, she didn't do it. Even if she couldn't find them, but looked for them.

I think the strong feelings with *do or not do* is tied up in expectation of perfection, or an assumption that shaming is happening, or pressure or something (which doesn't happen in our home).

If a woman wants to give birth naturally, and winds up with an emergency c-section -- she didn't give birth naturally...and she did. She did birth naturally until the c-section, she didn't end up with a completely natural birth. This doesn't in any way negate her efforts, intentions, or where her spirit was at.

If I want to get a job, and I put in a good resume, and ace the interview -- either I did or did not get the job. I did or did not prepare. I did or did not have hopes on getting it. I didn't "try" to get it, I did or did not get it









I get that this concept doesn't resonate with some people and I am fine with that.

It isn't as though the word *try* never finds its way into my vocabulary or anything, but at the same time I think *try* can hinder in many cases more than it helps.

When you *try* to do something, there is a big window that makes it okay for you to fail at doing it. When you do or not do, you either did...or didn't do it.... or did AND didn't do it.

So, I don't necessarily believe it is do *or* not do, but rather, there is only do *and* not do --- which seems a minor (but is really not) distinction.

ITA with this.

you don't set out to "try" something. you set out to DO it. and if you don't do it, then...you don't do it. i suppose you could look at it as failure if you want to, but i don't like to look at it that way. that seems defeatist or masochistic. so many variables intervene in someone's "success" or "failure".

intention is doing. not trying.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't like the implied failure in trying and not doing exactly as you set out to do. And she said this to a preschooler???

I can see this poor kid in a therapist's office years from now. What a horrible thing to say to a kid.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *galincognito* 
i overheard a woman saying to a preschool aged child "there is no try; you do or you don't do."


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
ITA with this.

you don't set out to "try" something. you set out to DO it. and if you don't do it, then...you don't do it. i suppose you could look at it as failure if you want to, but i don't like to look at it that way. that seems defeatist or masochistic. so many variables intervene in someone's "success" or "failure".

*intention is doing. not trying*.


I agree, especially the part I bolded. "Failure" is not tied into my wonderfulness as a person. It has no bearing on my self-esteem or how amazing I believe my daughter is. Some of my greatest achievements and life experiences have come from my "failures". I am teaching dd to _do_, not to _try to do_. Doing the best you can and seeing how it works out is not "trying" to me -- it is doing. You did it. You may have "failed" but you starting doing.. then eventually, did not do, "it".

And that is okay.

The emotional trauma comes when parents (or whoever), communicate the message that not doing it, or even *failing* at doing "it" is not okay.

We live in a society where every kid is given a huge trophy at the end of teeball season too, because they "tried." We want everyone to feel equally as talented, equally as capable...to be equally as good at all things. While I get the sentiment behind that, I think it can be unhealthy. What it communicates, other than "we are all winners" is that if you are not a "winner", there is something wrong with you. What it communicates, is that if you do excel, that doesn't matter because we don't want Johnny to feel badly... because he did try after all.

The most successful people -- not only financially, but emotionally, spiritually, and otherwise -- are successful because they _did,_ not because they tried. This doesn't mean they didn't fail, it means they didn't let their failures terrify them, or didn't need their failures cushioned by the old, pat-on-the-back "you tried! We are all winners!" Failure can do more for a person than succeeding can, in some cases.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i think it's only negative if your life/family couches it that way. for me, i find it incredibly freeing and empowering to look at any action/act as *doing* because it implies that no matter what the outcome, it's DOING not just TRYING. trying minimizes your effort. it enables you to purposely minimize your effort, and implies as much.

just do. don't think about success, failure, "trying" with the possibility of "failure", just DO.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

this is just my opinion - but just my opinion's opinion is WAY too complicated for me to understand. I'm no dummy, and I'm a full grown adult. My head would have been spinning every which way if my parents tried to push a philosophy like that on me. Maybes I shouldn't complain so much then huh? At least I understood what the heck my mom was talking about even if it was upsetting at times.

I understand:
pick up that stuffed animal
okay I'll try

I would want to know why my child feels that is something they need to try to do. why do they feel they couldn't just do it?

compared to
pick up that 100 lbs weight
okay I'll try

where I can understand why the child wouldnt be able to do it.

just because its something that a child can physically do, doesn't mean they don't need to try to do it. People have non-physical things that get in their way all the time.

I also don't understand comparing a woman who is choosing natural birth to a parent who is telling the child what to do. You could compare that if maybe someone else was choosing for the parent to have a natural birth when they didn't want to, and the mother agreeing to try.

just my opinion, but I wouldn't get into something that deep with a small child. if they say they are trying, they are trying. trying is an action, therefore trying is something you do, so when you say "dont try, do it or dont do it" thats really harsh, imo, since its unnecessary. Again, whats the harm in asking the child what they perceive to be standing in their way. Why do they say its something they need to try to do? what is obvious to one person is not always to the next. I don't expect my newborn to understand calculus anymore then I expect my child to see the world with my same deep philosophies. If your child understands that than thats awesome! You have the next world's next Aristotle on your hands







:

I'll stick to showing my child I trust what they say, even if to me I can't understand why they say it all the time


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
i think it's only negative if your life/family couches it that way. for me, i find it incredibly freeing and empowering to look at any action/act as *doing* because it implies that no matter what the outcome, it's DOING not just TRYING. trying minimizes your effort. it enables you to purposely minimize your effort, and implies as much.

just do. don't think about success, failure, "trying" with the possibility of "failure", just DO.

that still begs the question though, why is the child saying trying in that situation? why aren't they choosing this freeing and empowering philosophy their parents have. How does it benefit them to blow them off with nothing more then a "don't try - just do it" if they are feeling unsure, why not help then get to that place where they can feel sure enough to just do it? To just leave them on their own with the demand to just do it, no matter how trivial the situation, to me just sounds really scary and lacking support. As I said, just because we see it one way doesn't mean our child will too. You can mean just do it with all the positive intentions in the world, but I think its important to be willing to explore why the child wants to just try, not just do.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
just my opinion, but I wouldn't get into something that deep with a small child.

If you're talking about parents who don't allow "try" to be part of their kids' vocabulary, I can understand what you're saying, but with the tiny amount of info presented in the OP, we just can't know whether the woman was getting "deep" or just throwing out a movie quote in a lighthearted way.

I say movie quotes pretty often -- I hope passersby don't ask me to defend each and every one as though it's a significant part of my life philosophy! And because I know someone will say that we need to be careful what we say to our kids and that they might take movie quotes literally, I agree to an extent, but my DS has always seemed adept at knowing when I'm having a serious discussion with him and when I'm just making a silly quip.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
How does it benefit them to blow them off with nothing more then a "don't try - *just do it*" if they are feeling unsure, why not help then get to that place where they can feel sure enough to just do it?

Uh oh, let's not drag Nike into this.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
I don't like the implied failure in trying and not doing exactly as you set out to do. And she said this to a preschooler???


Just like there is no "try," there is also no "failure;" just a different result then you were expecting.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
ITA with this.

you don't set out to "try" something. you set out to DO it. and if you don't do it, then...you don't do it. i suppose you could look at it as failure if you want to, but i don't like to look at it that way. that seems defeatist or masochistic. so many variables intervene in someone's "success" or "failure".

intention is doing. not trying.

We learn from our failures. That is not defeatest. That is a learning point of view.

I don't expect to beable to do everything I try to do because 1) somethings are impossible to do and 2) it is by failing that I learn.

Maybe it's the scientist in me more then anything, but I feel that a very important part of learning about the world around us is by trying and either succeeding and failing. If I don't ever fail at something then I can't say that I have gone off the path and tried to do something in a unique way.

The first time I tried to make dinner with my own added flair, I failed miserably and not for lack of trying. I tried to make something good and in the end I learned something. I learned that the collection of ingredients I thought would make a good omelette, didn't in fact do that. They made a somewhat disgusting, rank smelling concoction that looked like dog vomit.

I tried.
I failed.
I learned.

Next time I tried and I succeeded.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I find it very empowering to know I can try something new, fail and learn from it.

Failure is _not_ a bad thing. I really don't like how everyone seems to think failing is somehow a horrible thing to do and accepting one might fail is lacking self esteem.


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I find it very empowering to know I can try something new, fail and learn from it.

Failure is _not_ a bad thing. I really don't like how everyone seems to think failing is somehow a horrible thing to do and accepting one might fail is lacking self esteem.

ITA.

This has been an interesting discussion. I can see many valid points from different points of view. Thanks!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
How does it benefit them to blow them off with nothing more then a "don't try - just do it" if they are feeling unsure, why not help then get to that place where they can feel sure enough to just do it? To just leave them on their own with the demand to just do it, no matter how trivial the situation, to me just sounds really scary and lacking support...


--Why do you consider the phrase _There is no try_...blowing them off? Why can't it be encouragement for the child to Do? By the same token, "ok honey, you just try your best" could be a canned and insincere response--especially when you know it is something the child is capable of.

I think it's great to support our children-absolutely, but there are also times when they need to spread their wings and maybe "just do it".

I don't think it's scary or unsupportive--unless it's consistently framed that way, like some of the negative parental responses people posted about upthread that left them feeling like they _couldn't_ do anything right.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

If it's coming as a "i believe in you you can do it" then sure that is supportive but if its in a "come on the shoes are right in front of you just do it" then its not supporting whatever was causing THEM to feel they couldnt do it. Sure physically they can obviously find the shoes - but why are they saying they will TRY what is going on with THEM.

I didn't say to say "okay honey just try your best" either. so I'm not sure where that came from?


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Guess I don't see the harm in saying to a child in that situation, even when its obvious to you they aren't trying, "What is preventing you from finding your shoes?" Instead of implying they arent even trying. Even if they aren't really trying, which you cant know even if it seems obvious to you they arent. Perhaps part of their trying is to first try to get around the feelings that prevent them from wanting to look. Perhaps in that situation they know right where there shoes are, but are trying to get attention. If so, why? What is bothering them? I'd want to know, not just shrug it off, or accuse them of not really trying.

We just look at it differently and have different children. In the case of shoes, if the shoes are in the car and the child can't get them, I don't say it. I don't set my children (or grandchildren) up for failure. However, when everyone is all ready to go and the 4 yo (or 11 yo, for that matter) is being stubborn, contrary, lazy, and acting "helpless", darn right, I will use the phrase. Whether it's the shoes 2 feet in front of them (or on the bed in plain sight) or the homework that they don't want to do. In that case, it's a cop out.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i think there are cases where it's okay to say...but maybe not to a kid. more like when DH says "i'll try to remember your birthday" or "i'll try not to have an affair" or something







(not that my DH has ever said those things!)

i think the biggest problem with it is that it's not true. sometimes there IS such a thing as trying and failing. and you want kids to know that, right?

my parents were of the opposite school...like "the important thing is to try your best, however you end up doing."

i liked that


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
We just look at it differently and have different children. In the case of shoes, if the shoes are in the car and the child can't get them, I don't say it. I don't set my children (or grandchildren) up for failure. However, when everyone is all ready to go and the 4 yo (or 11 yo, for that matter) is being stubborn, contrary, lazy, and acting "helpless", darn right, I will use the phrase. Whether it's the shoes 2 feet in front of them (or on the bed in plain sight) or the homework that they don't want to do. In that case, it's a cop out.

Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though







:


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I agree, especially the part I bolded. "Failure" is not tied into my wonderfulness as a person. It has no bearing on my self-esteem or how amazing I believe my daughter is. Some of my greatest achievements and life experiences have come from my "failures". I am teaching dd to _do_, not to _try to do_. Doing the best you can and seeing how it works out is not "trying" to me -- it is doing. You did it. You may have "failed" but you starting doing.. then eventually, did not do, "it".

And that is okay.

The emotional trauma comes when parents (or whoever), communicate the message that not doing it, or even *failing* at doing "it" is not okay.

We live in a society where every kid is given a huge trophy at the end of teeball season too, because they "tried." We want everyone to feel equally as talented, equally as capable...to be equally as good at all things. While I get the sentiment behind that, I think it can be unhealthy. What it communicates, other than "we are all winners" is that if you are not a "winner", there is something wrong with you. What it communicates, is that if you do excel, that doesn't matter because we don't want Johnny to feel badly... because he did try after all.

The most successful people -- not only financially, but emotionally, spiritually, and otherwise -- are successful because they _did,_ not because they tried. This doesn't mean they didn't fail, it means they didn't let their failures terrify them, or didn't need their failures cushioned by the old, pat-on-the-back "you tried! We are all winners!" Failure can do more for a person than succeeding can, in some cases.

When a reporter asked Edison if he felt like a failure and should give up, Edison said no, he just now knew over 9000 ways that a light bulb will not work. It took him some 10000 times to get it "right".


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
"the important thing is to try your best, however you end up doing."

i liked that



















and that is what all of us are doing as parent whether we are teaching our children to try their best or expecting them to just do it. But I do like the way your parents put it best







:


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
Just like there is no "try," there is also no "failure;" just a different result then you were expecting.

i disagree. sometimes you try and you FAIL--like when my friend trained for a marathon and injured her knee in the 3rd mile of it, or when i labored naturally for 17 hours and then had a c-section.

it's failing. and it sucks. reframing it with rose-colored glasses doesn't make the suckiness go away.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i disagree. sometimes you try and you FAIL--like when my friend trained for a marathon and injured her knee in the 3rd mile of it, or when i labored naturally for 17 hours and then had a c-section.

it's failing. and it sucks. reframing it with rose-colored glasses doesn't make the suckiness go away.


The sucky feeling of failing did start to go away when I stopped telling myself that I failed in childbirth. My c-section was not the result I wanted and it was time to learn what I could so that next time I could have the result that I wanted (VBAC). If not for my c-section, I might not know what I do now and might not have had the birth experiences I did with my second and third children. I can't look at my 4-year old and say that I failed at his birth.

Your friend's training didn't fail. She didn't defeat herself. She had an accident. Accidents happen and sometimes cannot be prevented, I don't count them as failures.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I dont think anyone was implying you failed in the birth of your son, just that you _tried_ to have a natural birth, and that is not the _kind_ of birth you ended up having. Obviously, you succeeded in birthing him, just by a different route.

Many people who "fail" to have a natural birth the first time go on to have one the next time - even those who DO look at it as something they didn't end up doing, just something they "tried" to do. They learn for the next time, same as you have, they just look at a different way.

The whole concept of saying you did something you didnt do (IE: saying you just played a piece by Beethoven when really you ust attempted/tried to but hit all the wrong keys on the piano) is obviously confusing to some of the adults here. If children out there are able to grasp it though, then I say thats awesome.

A lot of parents though stick with a more simple approach, and it doesn't mean our children don't do things, and it doesn't mean they don't try their hardest. Trying is doing. But with the understanding that sometimes it might not get done, and that we can look at why it didn't get done. We an look at why we couldn't get past the "trying" part of the equation.

ETA: maybe "failure" isn't best word. I don't think people fail just because they didn't succeed. They might not complete what they had in mind, but if they tried they did do something. Using your example - you didn't DO a natural childbirth. But you DID *do* trying. And you DID *do* birth. And you DID *do* learning from the experience.

I think I'll stick to simpler explanations with my own children though


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 

I think I'll stick to simpler explanations with my own children though









Oh, we've gotten way beyond anything I would explain to my children now. And beyond the intention of the original movie quote.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
Oh, we've gotten way beyond anything I would explain to my children now. And beyond the intention of the original movie quote.


what was said in the OP wasn't the original movie quote either.


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## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though







:

Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to _try_ when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 







:, except its not on our toilet.

We often say that we'll "try" when we really mean is "I can't" or "I'm going to quit when its gets hard." I didn't tell myself that I was going to try to breastfeed or VBAC, I told myself that I was going to _do_ it. It doesn't mean that failure isn't an option, just don't talk yourself out of something before giving an attempt everything you've got.

And if its beyond a preschooler's understanding, then it will just go over his head, no harm, no foul.


That is exactly the way I see it... when I gave BF classes I would tell the new moms that if they wanted to BF not to say to themselves or those around them that they would "try" but that they would do it... and most of those that took that attitude went on to have successful BF relationships (if something out of their control didn't come in the way)... but those that would "try" pretty much would leave the hospital already giving up or did so soon after...

The point I see is that "trying" to do something often ends up in a halfhearted attempt that is easy to give up on... but doing it and it not working on the way is just part of the learning experience, but you just get back and just plan to do it again...

Oh... and count my kids with the kids that know all the Star Wars movies by heart... and Lord of the Rings etc... (but they are terrified of Nanny Mcphee and 101 dalmatians for some reason)


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seriosa* 
Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to _try_ when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).

I totally agree with this and I am still







that this poor mum's misquoted Yoda thing is such a big deal. Not that I am not enjoying the conversation but MAN if we can't tell our kids silly things at the park from time to time... trouble!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seriosa* 
Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to _try_ when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).

you aren't harsh and unfeeling! you see things the way you do, nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't want to psychoanalyze either, so I don't. I just talk to them. I ask. Not psychoanalysis necessary. That would drive me batty too! I just feel more at peace when I approach things peacefully. To say "just stop already" would take me out of my peaceful place. Looking at them as the child I carried for months and gave birth too, and saying to them "The shoe is right there." instead of "just do it" just comes more naturally. If they are splashing water saying "just stop already" wouldn't come as naturally as saying "You will try to stop? Why might you not be able to?" (though splashing doesn't really bother me, im the one who taught them how to do it







) or I might say, "I'm sure you can stop if you try, but if you can't I'll help you." (vote of confidence, offer to help) but no, you certainly are not harsh and unfeeling, nor do I psychoanalyze my children. We are just different people, thats all, and thats not a bad thing







: One thing we have in common is we are both teaching self discipline, both teaching our children that they have the willpower to do things, both teaching our children that the world doesn't revolve around them, and both teaching our children that the world isn't going to stop rotating for them,. We just do it differently







I'd say we have more in common then not!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
MAN if we can't tell our kids silly things at the park from time to time... trouble!









I agree with that! it would be trouble if we couldn't be silly with our kids!







:


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

That would drive me batty too! I just feel more at peace when I approach things peacefully. To say "just stop already" would take me out of my peaceful place. Looking at them as the child I carried for months and gave birth too, and saying to them "The shoe is right there." instead of "just do it" just comes more naturally. If they are splashing water saying "just stop already" wouldn't come as naturally as saying "You will try to stop?








Its posts like this that have me loving these kinda boards. I can totally see and respect and support these statements . I can also say with upmost confidence and BTDT experience that it would drive everyone here batty to here.. " you will try to stop?" nope here it's "stop already" and those words are the nice respectful ones. WHy might you not be able to? are the mean mommy words that confuse the 6 year old living here.







Maybe because I have such a litelist. don't know but I've been shocked on how shes needs very exact stop now (not yelling or threats but exact frank words) or shes gets very upset and say I'm confusing her and I dont love and trust her.








Yet does this mean I think OMG why would you say can you try? for things they just can or need to do. Nope like you said diffrent approaches....

Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I agree with that! it would be trouble if we couldn't be silly with our kids!
A few months ago my DH had some coworkers over including a lady whom I'd not met before.. Anyways I'd asked my DD to pick up her room earlier that day and shes was kinda being lazy about it.. At one time she came and asked if she could have a cookie. I told her yes but that she then needed to go pick up her room and I was comming to check it in 30 mintues and if she hadn't I've have to turn her upside down and shake the cookies out of her tummy.







I was sooo obviously joking DD was sooo obviously not threatened by my comment... It was just a totally silly icebreaking comment.. But the look on the ladies face was pure SHOCK. About 20 mintues latter DD invited me over to see her newly "cleaned" room and asked me if her cookie could stay in her tummy.







I said ohh well I guess this time.... Again this weird shocked looked







.
Latter I found out she started spreading rumors on how cruel I was with my DD..somehow warpped the silly cookie thing into I was denying her food when she refused to pick up...







:

Deanna


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I was comming to check it in 30 mintues and if she hadn't I've have to turn her upside down and shake the cookies out of her tummy.

cant believe anyone would be shocked by that, its hilarious! my kids would be in fits of giggles if I not only said that, but pretended to try to do that


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 







Its posts like this that have me loving these kinda boards. I can totally see and respect and support these statements . I can also say with upmost confidence and BTDT experience that it would drive everyone here batty to here.. " you will try to stop?" nope here it's "stop already" and those words are the nice respectful ones. WHy might you not be able to? are the mean mommy words that confuse the 6 year old living here.







Maybe because I have such a litelist. don't know but I've been shocked on how shes needs very exact stop now (not yelling or threats but exact frank words) or shes gets very upset and say I'm confusing her and I dont love and trust her.








Yet does this mean I think OMG why would you say can you try? for things they just can or need to do. Nope like you said diffrent approaches....

Deanna

just to clarify, I will say "stop xyz" but what I meant when I said was "you wil try? whats stopping you?" is that if I said, "stop that please" and they said "okay I'll try and kept doing it, then I would say "whats stopping you." or more likely "if you can't stop on your own, I will help." i just realized my post probably read differently. It's good to hear we can agree that things just work differently with different kids, sometimes even with i the same family. I have to do what works for me though, and I feel at my best when I say in a peaceful place (doesnt everyone?) and thats just the _way_ I stay in my peaceful place, and then there are other ways other people stay in theirs


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
this is just my opinion - but just my opinion's opinion is WAY too complicated for me to understand. I'm no dummy, and I'm a full grown adult. My head would have been spinning every which way if my parents tried to push a philosophy like that on me. Maybes I shouldn't complain so much then huh? At least I understood what the heck my mom was talking about even if it was upsetting at times.

I understand:
pick up that stuffed animal
okay I'll try

I would want to know why my child feels that is something they need to try to do. why do they feel they couldn't just do it?

compared to
pick up that 100 lbs weight
okay I'll try

where I can understand why the child wouldnt be able to do it.

just because its something that a child can physically do, doesn't mean they don't need to try to do it. People have non-physical things that get in their way all the time.

I also don't understand comparing a woman who is choosing natural birth to a parent who is telling the child what to do. You could compare that if maybe someone else was choosing for the parent to have a natural birth when they didn't want to, and the mother agreeing to try.

just my opinion, but I wouldn't get into something that deep with a small child. if they say they are trying, they are trying. trying is an action, therefore trying is something you do, so when you say "dont try, do it or dont do it" thats really harsh, imo, since its unnecessary. Again, whats the harm in asking the child what they perceive to be standing in their way. Why do they say its something they need to try to do? what is obvious to one person is not always to the next. I don't expect my newborn to understand calculus anymore then I expect my child to see the world with my same deep philosophies. If your child understands that than thats awesome! You have the next world's next Aristotle on your hands







:

I'll stick to showing my child I trust what they say, even if to me I can't understand why they say it all the time

















...and I'll stick to showing my child that she can be empowered in her successes as well as in her failures and that I will keep on loving her all the same. I don't think coddling her through every single action and giving a huge "bravo" applause "we are all winners" to every single attempt she makes in every single situation is beneficial.

Mommysarah5, I find your tone to be bating and insulting -- despite your "friendly" winks. Perhaps your child wouldn't understand the concepts my child does because _you don't believe they can?
_ Our children, after all, are only capable (when they are little) of what we believe they are cable of of. When you put a cap on that, it doesn't surprise me that you would hold the belief you do and that it translates to your children.

My daughter knows she is loved, and she knows that I see her as the intelligent, capable, thinking, loving, loved human being that she is. The last thing I want to do is dumb her down.

I look at parenting (and other things) on an energetic, spiritual level. I believe we are spiritual beings having human experiences, not the other way around -- so "trying" has a distinctly different energy than doing or not doing does to me. "Trying" to me does not imply ownership or acceptance of action or inaction, success, or failure.

Trying is not action -- if there is action taking place, it is doing. Now you can still do and fail, but you still did....then didn't.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

...and who ever said that anyone said to their kid "just do it" in a cold, unfeeling way? I've never said that to my daughter, yet my opinion on 'trying' remains the same.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

as I said different things work for different children. I know my children are intelligent too, I dont think I dumb them down by talking to them like they are under the age of 30 though









look how much we have in common:
you dont coddle - neither do I
you dont give a huge bravo or we are all winners at every single thing your child does - neither do I
your child knows she is loved - so do mine, they've told me so
your child knows that I see her as the intelligent, capable, thinking, loving, loved human being that she is. - i think my children know this but they haven't told me for themselves yet
The last thing I want to do is dumb her down. - agreed, I dont dumb down my children either.

Trying IS action.

I tried to pick up a 100 lb weight once. I walked over to it, grabbed it with both hands, and pulled with all my might. That is doing something. It's not doing what I was trying to do though, because I didnt pick it up. SO I didnt do it (it being picking up the weight) but I did DO something. I tried.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
...and who ever said that anyone said to their kid "just do it" in a cold, unfeeling way? I've never said that to my daughter, yet my opinion on 'trying' remains the same.

i can't understand your hostility, sorry. no one here said that they said it that way. i have seen it used that way. ive experienced it being used that way. Well, more so being used in annoyance then in a cold unfeeling way. definitely feeling involved in the annoyance.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
that still begs the question though, why is the child saying trying in that situation? why aren't they choosing this freeing and empowering philosophy their parents have. How does it benefit them to blow them off with nothing more then a "don't try - just do it" if they are feeling unsure, why not help then get to that place where they can feel sure enough to just do it? To just leave them on their own with the demand to just do it, no matter how trivial the situation, to me just sounds really scary and lacking support. As I said, just because we see it one way doesn't mean our child will too. You can mean just do it with all the positive intentions in the world, but I think its important to be willing to explore why the child wants to just try, not just do.

ok, well - first of all, i haven't actually ever said "do or do not, there is no try" to my kid. and if i did, i assure you it wouldn't be in an attempt to blow them off. it would probably be said in a yoda voice followed by laughter from all of us.

second, i don't "demand" that my kids do anything.

and wrt your comments to JMO, i think i can safely say that she did not mean that she sits her child down and explains the finer points of her philosophy as she would, say, someone on MDC who has brought it up in a thread. this is just one piece of her family's broader philosophy that probably gets played out in much more subtle ways and learned slowly over the course of her life.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
We learn from our failures. That is not defeatest. That is a learning point of view.

I don't expect to beable to do everything I try to do because 1) somethings are impossible to do and 2) it is by failing that I learn.

Maybe it's the scientist in me more then anything, but I feel that a very important part of learning about the world around us is by trying and either succeeding and failing. If I don't ever fail at something then I can't say that I have gone off the path and tried to do something in a unique way.

The first time I tried to make dinner with my own added flair, I failed miserably and not for lack of trying. I tried to make something good and in the end I learned something. I learned that the collection of ingredients I thought would make a good omelette, didn't in fact do that. They made a somewhat disgusting, rank smelling concoction that looked like dog vomit.

I tried.
I failed.
I learned.

Next time I tried and I succeeded.

and as a social scientist, i choose to reframe "failure". i agree, by your terms, i "fail" all the time. and learn from that "failure". but imo, that "failure" is not really a "failure" at all BECAUSE of the fact that you learn from every experience, even if it doesn't come off as planned. you succeeded at doing something ELSE. so, not a failure after all.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I find it very empowering to know I can try something new, fail and learn from it.

Failure is _not_ a bad thing. I really don't like how everyone seems to think failing is somehow a horrible thing to do and accepting one might fail is lacking self esteem.

nope, i don't think it's lack of self-esteem. i think it's a defeatist perspective. those arent the same thing.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though







:

well, yes of course...choosing not to overuse "try" doesn't imply not finding a way to support them.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
When a reporter asked Edison if he felt like a failure and should give up, Edison said no, he just now knew over 9000 ways that a light bulb will not work. It took him some 10000 times to get it "right".

exactly! those 9000 times were not failures at all. and imo, he wasn't "trying to succeed" he was "doing" and "learning" and succeeding at both of those.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

I guess I just misunderstand why this concept is assumed to be so "over children's heads" when they themselves are born with this very concept very much in tact. You think an infant or child gives a hoot if you "tried?"

You either change my diaper or you don't.
You either come to me when I cry or you do not.
You either sleep with me or sleep apart from me.
You either comfort me or you do not (even if a child doesn't seem comforted by your comforting, you are still in the action of comforting them, even if they aren't responding the way you'd wish.)
You either pay attention to me, or you do not.
Either you are there or you aren't (for a school function or play or whatever).

Children, by their very make-up, live in worlds of "do or do not". How does this concept go "over their heads?" Obviously, certain things are out of our control to a point -- if your car breaks down on the way to the play and you miss it...they can understand the concept as they grow that you had every intention of going and were _in the process of doing
_ when circumstances beyond your control prevented you from doing.

I don't just coldly respond to my daughter, "just do it." If she wants to do something, I tell her to go for it. When she asks for my guidance, which is often, tell her whether I believe she is or is not capable of it (where she is currently, developmentally, psychically) -- like, no honey, if you want to flap your arms and pretend you can get to the moon that way, that is awesome -- but you can't actually get to the moon that way, babe.

I just don't understand why this is a concept that is meant to be so "out there" to kids?

Anything can be used punitively or not, shaming or not. Even the words, "I love you" can be used manipulatively or ugly -- so I don't buy the idea that just by it's very existence, "there is no try" is a negative belief to hold.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

not saying its negative just saying that in my family im not limiting it. sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, and sometimes we try

sometimes I try to get my kid to bed by 8pm, and yes they do know I'm trying, and they do know whether I end u doing it or not doing it. you have to try to do it before it can be done or not done though.

I just think that yes, the idea that try does not even exist is a little much to put on a child when they obviously think the word does exist and are telling you they are trying. if they don't believe in try, then why did they say i'll try in the first place?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I guess I just misunderstand why this concept is assumed to be so "over children's heads" when they themselves are born with this very concept very much in tact. You think an infant or child gives a hoot if you "tried?"

You either change my diaper or you don't.
You either come to me when I cry or you do not.
You either sleep with me or sleep apart from me.
You either comfort me or you do not (even if a child doesn't seem comforted by your comforting, you are still in the action of comforting them, even if they aren't responding the way you'd wish.)
You either pay attention to me, or you do not.
Either you are there or you aren't (for a school function or play or whatever).

Children, by their very make-up, live in worlds of "do or do not". How does this concept go "over their heads?" Obviously, certain things are out of our control to a point -- if your car breaks down on the way to the play and you miss it...they can understand the concept as they grow that you had every intention of going and were _in the process of doing
_ when circumstances beyond your control prevented you from doing.

I don't just coldly respond to my daughter, "just do it." If she wants to do something, I tell her to go for it. When she asks for my guidance, which is often, tell her whether I believe she is or is not capable of it (where she is currently, developmentally, psychically) -- like, no honey, if you want to flap your arms and pretend you can get to the moon that way, that is awesome -- but you can't actually get to the moon that way, babe.

I just don't understand why this is a concept that is meant to be so "out there" to kids?

Anything can be used punitively or not, shaming or not. Even the words, "I love you" can be used manipulatively or ugly -- so I don't buy the idea that just by it's very existence, "there is no try" is a negative belief to hold.

yes yes yes!! i agree with all of this.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
not saying its negative just saying that in my family im not limiting it. sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, and sometimes we try

sometimes I try to get my kid to bed by 8pm, and yes they do know I'm trying, and they do know whether I end u doing it or not doing it. you have to try to do it before it can be done or not done though.

it's not that we're doing different things. i do what you'd call "trying to get my kids to bed" too. i just don't call it that. i get them to bed. sometimes it just takes a helluva lot longer than i'd like.







although, not usually because they're awesome at bedtime now. finally. LOL

Quote:

I just think that yes, the idea that try does not even exist is a little much to put on a child when they obviously think the word does exist and are telling you they are trying. if they don't believe in try, then why did they say i'll try in the first place?
well, my kids have contact with maaaaany more people than just me and my husband. and this concept of "trying" is *everywhere*. as evidenced in part by this thread. our society is becoming more and more obsessed with this notion that we all need to hear encouragement in this particular way. i offer my kids tons of encouragement. it just doesn't include the word "try".


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

I agree Inca. I think the spoonfed belief to our kids that "trying" is succeess in and of itself -- while coddles their obviously delicate and paperthin self-esteems







-- also communicates the message that a. everyone is equal in their talents and abilities and no one should be recognized for excelling b. it is NOT okay to fail to any degree. In fact, failing is SO bad, we can't even allow it to happen.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

well yes I do get my kids to bed and sometimes it does take longer then I like but if I want them to go to bed at 8 that requires me first trying to get them to bed at 8. and then either I do or I don't. Either way, yes I DO get them to bed, but DO I get them to bed at 8? they didnt always. Of course now they are both in bed by 7 every night, lucky me







but it was an example.

try and encouragement have nothing to do with eachother for us. its more about respecting why they are saying they are going to try.

I think there are different kinds of success. There is success in giving it all you got, and learning from the experience no matter what the outcome. There is also success in doing what you set out to do.

i think your guys philosophy is fascinating and well intentioned for sure, and obviously its working for you guys







I just know that would have confused me as a child, and when my children say something I have learned its best to respect what they are saying even if I don't understand how its possible. If I were to say to my kid - you aren't trying to find your shoes - they are right in front of you (using an example someone else gave earlier) then they would probably protest it even more. But if I find out they are saying they will try and the reason they arent just doing it is because they don't want to go to papa's house, and then I find out the reason why is because papa has been touching them inappropriately - well then I'm glad I asked why they felt they couldn't "just find the shoes that are right in front of them" I'm not arguing that kids dont sometimes say "ill try" and mean they wont really try and have no intentions of doing it - im just saying I want to know why that is.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

What I (and I think Inca) are saying, is that "giving it all you got" IS doing. It is doing, it is an act of doing. If you want to label that as "trying", that is cool, whatevs... but while you claim it devalues the act of trying to believe what I do -- I will say I think it devalues the act of doing to just label an act "trying" when someone doesn't do exactly as they intended. They still DID (and, didn't







) ...but then I do believe someone can simultaneously succeed and fail, as I see the world in less linear terms.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

As I said, I agree that trying is doing - but sometimes things get done and sometimes they don't get done. I'm just saying if my child says they are trying, then I want to know why they are trying and not doing. why do they feel it's something that needs "trying"

I think when you give it all you got you are doing something. But it doesn't mean you always end up doing what you set out to do I agree you can simultaneously succeed and fail







I think we agree more then disagree


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
If I were to say to my kid - you aren't trying to find your shoes - they are right in front of you (using an example someone else gave earlier) then they would probably protest it even more. But if I find out they are saying they will try and the reason they arent just doing it is because they don't want to go to papa's house, and then I find out the reason why is because papa has been touching them inappropriately - well then I'm glad I asked why they felt they couldn't "just find the shoes that are right in front of them" I'm not arguing that kids dont sometimes say "ill try" and mean they wont really try and have no intentions of doing it - im just saying I want to know why that is.

well, sure! my philosophy doesn't preclude me from asking the same questions.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
As I said, I agree that trying is doing - but sometimes things get done and sometimes they don't get done. I'm just saying if my child says they are trying, then I want to know why they are trying and not doing. why do they feel it's something that needs "trying"


yeah i agree, i want to know too. i'd imagine that our post-processing w/our kids would just sound a bit different, not that we wouldn't ask the same questions of them necessarily.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

glad to hear it










and I'm glad to hear your children understand your philsophies too, thats really awesome, im just saying it is one of those philosophies that would be hard for some kids to get, thats all. Is a parent with that philosophy willing to treat their child in a way that respects them not understanding the philosophy if that situation occurs? im sure everyone here would be willing, just saying in general


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
As I said, I agree that trying is doing - but sometimes things get done and sometimes they don't get done. I'm just saying if my child says they are trying, then I want to know why they are trying and not doing. why do they feel it's something that needs "trying"

I never said anything that conflicted with the above statement.

I said, "I" avoid the word try, although it's not void completely from my vocabulary. Mostly I DO NOT use it, once in a while I DO.









If my dd uses it, I don't like, scream in her face while shaking her -- "THERE IS NO TRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY" but I do have a dialog about "trying", and share why I don't believe "try" is a very empowering word ('cuz I don't).


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
yeah i agree, i want to know too. i'd imagine that our post-processing w/our kids would just sound a bit different, not that we wouldn't ask the same questions of them necessarily.

I'll let you do the imagining then. Who knows if it would sound different or not! you might, but I sure don't. don't have that kind of power... yet.... mwah hahahhaaha

just kidding


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:

Is a parent with that philosophy willing to treat their child in a way that respects them not understanding the philosophy if that situation occurs?
you mean...if their kid "tries" to understand but can't?







: jk


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

well of course try isn't an empowering word no one is trying to add it to a list of magical words here hehehe

as I said, I'm sure we agree more then disagree. Try is a word though, and it describes an action, and so I use that word to describe that action.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
you mean...if their kid "tries" to understand but can't?







: jk

maybe they won't "try" to understand. maybe they just wont do it.







:


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
maybe they won't "try" to understand. maybe they just wont do it.







:

or understand it in a different way that i didn't intend.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

ps - i didnt think you did that just my opinion, im just picturing it now... me having the conversation with my child that you just had with me... or someone having that conversation with me when I was a child... I'd probably ask if we could just do math instead!


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

"Hate" is a word too, but one I don't think is empowering and one we avoid in our home. Words carry energy, and while I am not comparing "try" to "hate" (except to provide a more emphasized example) -- I choose not to support terminology that I personally believe has a lot of potential to be limiting to my child.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
or understand it in a different way that i didn't intend.









yep that would be the do

do: understand it in a way it wasn't intended
or
don't: understand it in the way it was intended
or
try: to understand and succeed
or
try: to understand and not succeed.

well, i'd be happy they tried, but thats just me


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't see what is so difficult. My daughter is four and was born with a sense of "do or not do" very much in tact. Supported by my examples in earlier posts.

Quote:

You either change my diaper or you don't.
You either come to me when I cry or you do not.
You either sleep with me or sleep apart from me.
You either comfort me or you do not (even if a child doesn't seem comforted by your comforting, you are still in the action of comforting them, even if they aren't responding the way you'd wish.)
You either pay attention to me, or you do not.
Either you are there or you aren't (for a school function or play or whatever)
The idea that she would somehow find a dynamic that she was born understanding, magically understandable, doesn't make a lick of sense to me.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
"Hate" is a word too, but one I don't think is empowering and one we avoid in our home. Words carry energy, and while I am not comparing "try" to "hate" (except to provide a more emphasized example) -- I choose not to support terminology that I personally believe has a lot of potential to be limiting to my child.

you ONLY use empowering words in your home? yes some words are bad words that shouldn't be used. I don't think try limits my child. You know what, try is an empowering word - to me. When my child says they try that empowers me to hear that something is stoping them from doing and find out what is bothering them. so when someone _else_ uses the word try towards _me_, its empowering. I'm not saying to use a word just because its a word - but energy can be there whether you use the word or not. you can call an apple and orange but its still going to look like and taste liek an apple. you can feel hate even if you never use the word.







and simply saying the word hate does not create bad energy. you just used it right now, i just read it, and im still feeling good


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
yep that would be the do

do: understand it in a way it wasn't intended
or
don't: understand it in the way it was intended
or
try: to understand and succeed
or
try: to understand and not succeed.

well, i'd be happy they tried, but thats just me









and i'd be happy they do'd.







:


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I think it's interesting that people on both sides of this debate see the other side as not tolerant of failure. Some of the "tryers" see the "doers" as saying that to just try is to welcome failure, and that failure is unacceptable. And some of the "doers" see the "tryers" as saying that just trying equals success, and that failure is unacceptable.

I'm confident that none of us are teaching our children that failure is unacceptable/unavoidable/necessarily negative. This seems to be mostly a semantic debate, and I'm sure the kids in "try" households and the kids in "do" households will pick up on not only their parents' word choice, but also their tone, emotion, and overall philosophy over time, and chances are that most kids of the insightful parents participating in this thread know they're loved and supported, whether their parents use "try" verbage or "do" verbage.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

well my kids were born understanding do and dont and also try. sorry it doesn't make sense to you









let the force be with you. I AM going to go make dinner. I am going to TRY not to burn it. I may NOT burn it or I MAY but either wayy I WILL be making it.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
and i'd be happy they do'd.







:


i guess then i'd be happy with try or do. that means im happy with 100% of the possibilities (since not doing would still involve having tried) MWahhahahahaha


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

I am sure glad my husband didn't say in his marriage vows, "I will try to love and cherish you, I will try to remain faithful, I will try to honor you." I will sure try... I would have run screaming lol


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I am sure glad my husband didn't say in his marriage vows, "I will try to love and cherish you, I will try to remain faithful, I will try to honor you." I will sure try... I would have run screaming lol


yeah me too, I don't get your point? its not like everything we say is "i will try to do this" yes some things we just do. like i just love my husband. but some things we try, and i dont think thats a bad thing that means our marriage isnt as great as yours.

but hey, you do what works for you. for us trying means giving it your all and doing your personal best - if some people think that DOING that is bad then thats fine, personally I think its good that we do that. That we do trying (give it our all, do our personal best) for us trying is doing, just doing with the understanding that the doing is in the trying and that sometimes things get done and sometimes they don't.

my confusion is with people saying "i did a natural birth" when they ended up getting an epidaural for example. they didn't do a natural birth.they did birth, but they didn't birth naturally. they tried to have a natural birth. you either did it or you didn't. you dont just SAY you did because you dont want to use the word try. at the same time im not going to discredit their effort and say "they didnt have a natural birth" when they tried but ended up with a c-section. They maybe had hours of natural labor. they did their best. they gave it their all. they tried. but in the end, it didn't happen. You can say it happened when it didnt, but that doesnt make it true.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
and as a social scientist, i choose to reframe "failure". i agree, by your terms, i "fail" all the time. and learn from that "failure". but imo, that "failure" is not really a "failure" at all BECAUSE of the fact that you learn from every experience, even if it doesn't come off as planned. you succeeded at doing something ELSE. so, not a failure after all.

Fail:

-verb (used without object)
1. to fall short of success or achievement in something expected, attempted, desired, or approved: The experiment failed because of poor planning.
...
-verb (used with object)
9. to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of: He failed to do his duty.

To fail is to not achieve the desired results.
Achieving one result when you planned for and attempted another is a failure.
To look for the cause of your failure is to learn from it and understand how you can adjust what you did to prevent future failure in that area.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
nope, i don't think it's lack of self-esteem. i think it's a defeatist perspective. those arent the same thing.

Someone else mentioned low sefl-esteem when you expect failure.

Accepting that you can and will at times fail is not self defeating. Accepting that there is more then doing and not doing is not self defeating. It's accepting that as I human I am not perfect and that I am capable of being less then adept at something.

I used to not accept failure as a potential option and rarely tried new things as a result, because if I knew that if I attepted to do something and didn't I was not as good as others who were able to do it, even if the other had spend n hours/days/months/years learning to do it.

It was when I learned to accept failure as a possible outcome that became able to attempt things I wasn't sure I could do. Sometimes I did them, sometimes I failed. But I still tried, and I had reason to try again because I could see things that I had done to cause my failure.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I agree Inca. I think the spoonfed belief to our kids that "trying" is succeess in and of itself -- while coddles their obviously delicate and paperthin self-esteems







-- also communicates the message that a. everyone is equal in their talents and abilities and no one should be recognized for excelling b. it is NOT okay to fail to any degree. In fact, failing is SO bad, we can't even allow it to happen.

Obviously not all people associate trying with success... What I'm seeing here though is the "Do or don't" people are associating trying and failing as doing and there for success.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
i think your guys philosophy is fascinating and well intentioned for sure, and obviously its working for you guys







I just know that would have confused me as a child, and when my children say something I have learned its best to respect what they are saying even if I don't understand how its possible. If I were to say to my kid - you aren't trying to find your shoes - they are right in front of you (using an example someone else gave earlier) then they would probably protest it even more. But if I find out they are saying they will try and the reason they arent just doing it is because they don't want to go to papa's house, and then I find out the reason why is because papa has been touching them inappropriately - well then I'm glad I asked why they felt they couldn't "just find the shoes that are right in front of them" I'm not arguing that kids dont sometimes say "ill try" and mean they wont really try and have no intentions of doing it - im just saying I want to know why that is.

I know that when I was about 4 years old my parents came to the realization that the should have had a similar philosophy. Find out why I was saying I'll try and why I said I wasn't able.

Because of a couple of lazy doctors I wasn't diagnosed as having OCA2 until I was four. Because of that and the fact that for the most part I had adapted to everyday live with limited vision, no one really suspected I was legally blind. Once everything was revealed I know that both my parents had wished they had asked why instead of saying "You didn't really try" when I told them I couldn't do something (i.e. find the shoes two feet in front of me to use the same example other mentioned that you brought up) well, maybe I truly couldn't see them. Heck, I can even see my own shoes if I'm wearing them right at this point because my feet are out of my visual range.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I think it's interesting that people on both sides of this debate see the other side as not tolerant of failure. Some of the "tryers" see the "doers" as saying that to just try is to welcome failure, and that failure is unacceptable. And some of the "doers" see the "tryers" as saying that just trying equals success, and that failure is unacceptable.

I'm confident that none of us are teaching our children that failure is unacceptable/unavoidable/necessarily negative. This seems to be mostly a semantic debate, and I'm sure the kids in "try" households and the kids in "do" households will pick up on not only their parents' word choice, but also their tone, emotion, and overall philosophy over time, and chances are that most kids of the insightful parents participating in this thread know they're loved and supported, whether their parents use "try" verbage or "do" verbage.









I don't think I've said that failure is unacceptable. In fact I think I have said specifically that failure is a good thing.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I am sure glad my husband didn't say in his marriage vows, "I will try to love and cherish you, I will try to remain faithful, I will try to honor you." I will sure try... I would have run screaming lol

You see, those things all involve simply the persons willingness to complete the task. Not all tasks are that cut and dry. Most tasks involve outside forces that can affect the outcome.

I can try to fully deal with another persons bloody gash, but I can also tell you that 9 times out of 10 I will either puke or pass out. It's not something I can control. Trust me, I've tried.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I am _trying_ to understand this thread but I am failing. I think that's good.









We like trying. It's fun. We try mixing baking soda and vinegar. Then we try mixing other things.... Try is full of potential.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I don't think I've said that failure is unacceptable. In fact I think I have said specifically that failure is a good thing.










Yeah, I didn't phrase that well. I meant that that's what each side was saying that the other side was saying. If that awful sentence makes any sense!







:


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I was watching Kathy Griffin's My Life on the D List last night, and something made me think of this thread. Kathy wanted her elderly mother to be in charge of managing her FaceBook page, and Ma Griffin, who is not very computer literate, noted that it would be very difficult for her but said, "Well ... I'll try." That was a great use of the word, IMO -- giving something a shot even though you don't know how well you'll do, or whether you'll be able to do it at all. Go Ma Griffin!

Then there are clearly times when it would be ridiculous and insulting to use the word, such as, as another poster noted, in wedding vows. To strike it from the language altogether would be silly, but I can totally see situations where using it is an awesome display of optimism (as in the Griffin example), and other situations where it's used as a cop out. As with most things, it's not _always_ one or the other.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Yeah, I didn't phrase that well. I meant that that's what each side was saying that the other side was saying. If that awful sentence makes any sense!







:

Yeah it makes sense.









I tried and was able to understand that sentance.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I am _trying_ to understand this thread but I am failing. I think that's good.









We like trying. It's fun. We try mixing baking soda and vinegar. Then we try mixing other things.... Try is full of potential.

You should try mixing baking powder with plan old water. That can be fun to try too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I am _trying_ to understand this thread but I am failing. I think that's good.









Yeah...that's me, pretty much. I haven't read the whole thing (started it yesterday, and just re-read this page), but I think I agree completely with MusicianDad. Trying and failing can be a very good thing...one I'm still far too afraid of, although not as much as I used to be.

Quote:

We like trying. It's fun. We try mixing baking soda and vinegar. Then we try mixing other things.... Try is full of potential.
This...potential. I've probably never lived up to my potential in _anything_, because I'm afraid to _try_. If I'm not 99% sure I can do something successfully, I won't make the attempt. (Well...I used to have to be 100% sure, now I'm at about 90%.







)


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## Juuulie (Apr 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
This seems to be mostly a semantic debate, and I'm sure the kids in "try" households and the kids in "do" households will pick up on not only their parents' word choice, but also their tone, emotion, and overall philosophy over time, and chances are that most kids of the insightful parents participating in this thread know they're loved and supported, whether their parents use "try" verbage or "do" verbage.









I agree! "Try" means different things in different contexts. Sometimes "trying" is really a whiny euphemism for "not trying," as in the lost shoe example. I would never quote Yoda when our kids are "trying" a new food, say, or "trying" to ride a two-wheeler for the first time. But when they use "I tried" as an excuse for why they didn't do something I _know_ they are perfectly capable of doing, yes, I quote Yoda. When they balk at "trying" something new because they're afraid of failure, OTOH, I quote Miss Frizzle from The Magic Schoolbus ("get messy! make mistakes!"). My kids don't seem to be the least bit confused about the difference.

And, ha ha, I am going to start saying May the Fork Be With You when they're setting the table. We do say "uuuuuse the fork" to encourage good table manners.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Fail:

-verb (used without object)
1. to fall short of success or achievement in something expected, attempted, desired, or approved: The experiment failed because of poor planning.
...
-verb (used with object)
9. to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of: He failed to do his duty.

To fail is to not achieve the desired results.
Achieving one result when you planned for and attempted another is a failure.
To look for the cause of your failure is to learn from it and understand how you can adjust what you did to prevent future failure in that area.









: oh lord, we're resorting to dictionary definitions now?


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 







: oh lord, we're resorting to dictionary definitions now?

C'mon, I LOVE that in threads


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

If I feel the term needs to be defined... then yes.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Someone else mentioned low sefl-esteem when you expect failure.

Accepting that you can and will at times fail is not self defeating. Accepting that there is more then doing and not doing is not self defeating. It's accepting that as I human I am not perfect and that I am capable of being less then adept at something.

I used to not accept failure as a potential option and rarely tried new things as a result, because if I knew that if I attepted to do something and didn't I was not as good as others who were able to do it, even if the other had spend n hours/days/months/years learning to do it.

It was when I learned to accept failure as a possible outcome that became able to attempt things I wasn't sure I could do. Sometimes I did them, sometimes I failed. But I still tried, and I had reason to try again because I could see things that I had done to cause my failure.

yyyyeah, it's pretty clear that you don't get what i'm sayin'. that's cool. my life doesn't hang in the balance. i'll just let this one go. i've said what i wanted to say, you don't agree with your interpretation of what i've said, i'm ok with that.


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If I feel the term needs to be defined... then yes.
















right but my whole point revolves around the fact that i choose to reframe the technical definitions of these terms because i feel that they are associated with values or intentions that i don't choose to uphold.

gah.

nevermind.

no. ok i'm gonna do this one more time and THEN shut up.

failure is a loaded word. you say that failure can be a learning experience. why not just say learning experience PERIOD and not even have failure in there? why do you NEED to focus on the FAILURE of it and add that failure can be good? of course failure can be good. that's my POINT. that the act you call trying and failing, i call good. i call it learning. i call it unexpected success.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

How am I not understanding?


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
How am I not understanding?

i have no idea. i think i'm being pretty clear.







:


----------



## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Someone is clearly not "trying".









Had to.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I know I don't understand how trying is self defeating... I certainly don't set myself up for failure when I decide to try something.


----------



## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
right but my whole point revolves around the fact that i choose to reframe the technical definitions of these terms because i feel that they are associated with values or intentions that i don't choose to uphold.

gah.

nevermind.

no. ok i'm gonna do this one more time and THEN shut up.

failure is a loaded word. you say that failure can be a learning experience. why not just say learning experience PERIOD and not even have failure in there? why do you NEED to focus on the FAILURE of it and add that failure can be good? of course failure can be good. that's my POINT. that the act you call trying and failing, i call good. i call it learning. i call it unexpected success.

ah confused! that sounds like the exact same thing that musician dad is saying, only he used the word intended to describe it and you don't because you have a personal philosophy against the word. Sounds like the same thing to me, just that you don't use the word trying because you don't like that word. Kind of like I don't like the word surely. it sounds weird when you say it a lot. or even once.


----------



## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Someone is clearly not "trying".









Had to.

yeah, he just DID it







but then someone told him he was failing even when he was succeeding


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Someone is clearly not "trying".









Had to.

Or perhaps they are "trying", but as is known to happen when people try, they just aren't "doing"


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
ah confused! that sounds like the exact same thing that musician dad is saying, only he used the word intended to describe it and you don't because you have a personal philosophy against the word. Sounds like the same thing to me, just that you don't use the word trying because you don't like that word. Kind of like I don't like the word surely. it sounds weird when you say it a lot. or even once.

what i am butting up against is the notion that somehow i am suggesting that the act you all refer to as "trying and failing" is somehow in and of itself bad. that it's bad to perform the actions that you call "trying and failing". i am NOT saying that. what i am saying is that while my actions look the same as yours, i simply have shifted my paradigm a bit and choose not to look at it as trying and failing. i choose to look at it as doing and achieving an unexpected result. yes i do realize that we're talking semantics to a certain extent. but in another manner, it's also an encompassing philosophy driven by the power of language to shape one's world, one's values, one's expectations, and one's happiness.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
right but my whole point revolves around the fact that i choose to reframe the technical definitions of these terms because i feel that they are associated with values or intentions that i don't choose to uphold.

gah.

nevermind.

no. ok i'm gonna do this one more time and THEN shut up.

failure is a loaded word. you say that failure can be a learning experience. why not just say learning experience PERIOD and not even have failure in there? why do you NEED to focus on the FAILURE of it and add that failure can be good? of course failure can be good. that's my POINT. that the act you call trying and failing, i call good. i call it learning. i call it unexpected success.

Why not just use the term learning experience? Well, it's simple. When I succeed I learn too. If I refer to both failure and success with the same term then I am not distinguishing between doing something and trying but not succeeding.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
what i am butting up against is the notion that somehow i am suggesting that the act you all refer to as "trying and failing" is somehow in and of itself bad. that it's bad to perform the actions that you call "trying and failing". i am NOT saying that. what i am saying is that while my actions look the same as yours, i simply have shifted my paradigm a bit and choose not to look at it as trying and failing. i choose to look at it as doing and achieving an unexpected result. yes i do realize that we're talking semantics to a certain extent. but in another manner, it's also an encompassing philosophy driven by the power of language to shape one's world, one's values, one's expectations, and one's happiness.

But what is your issue with the word "failing" if you have nothing against the word? Why do you avoid acknowledging something for what it is?

I guess I'm just one of those "call a fish a fish" kind of people. I refer to things by what they are.


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I know I don't understand how trying is self defeating... I certainly don't set myself up for failure when I decide to try something.

trying itself is not self-defeating. the actions you call trying are the same actions i perform. i just choose not to harp on the "try" aspect because that implies that somehow the desired results are more fixed or that there is disappointment upon "failure". and even if there isn't, what's the value in setting up a try/fail paradigm? why bother? is it so bad to look at it as do/achieve a different result?

i feel that try/fail is so much more limiting. as if you know already what the result SHOULD be. you know what you WANT it to be, but the try/fail mentality implies a dichotomy. that there's only one outcome that's desirable. i don't agree with that.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Why not just use the term learning experience? Well, it's simple. When I succeed I learn too. If I refer to both failure and success with the same term then I am not distinguishing between doing something and trying but not succeeding.

yes, you're not. why is that bad? why MUST you distinguish between them?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
trying itself is not self-defeating. the actions you call trying are the same actions i perform. i just choose not to harp on the "try" aspect because that implies that somehow the desired results are more fixed or that there is disappointment upon "failure". and even if there isn't, what's the value in setting up a try/fail paradigm? why bother? is it so bad to look at it as do/achieve a different result?

i feel that try/fail is so much more limiting. as if you know already what the result SHOULD be. you know what you WANT it to be, but the try/fail mentality implies a dichotomy. that there's only one outcome that's desirable. i don't agree with that.

Why is it so bad to look at the try/fail? See this I don't get, you are saying tha failure is not a bad thing, but then you refuse to refer to not succeeding what you set out to do as failure.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
yes, you're not. why is that bad? why MUST you distinguish between them?

Because they are two different learning experiences. When I fail, I learn by what I did wrong. When I succeed I learn by what I did right.

I fail and think "Ok, I won't do it that way again."
I succeed and think "Ok, that works. There's one way to do it."


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
But what is your issue with the word "failing" if you have nothing against the word? Why do you avoid acknowledging something for what it is?

i have something against the inherent limits contained within the word "failure". so i suppose in that sense, i do have something against it. what i don't have anything against is the ACTION that you are calling trying and failing. that scientific experiment you referred to a while back. i used to work in a microbiology lab. we performed hundreds of experiments and got wildly unexpected results many times. and i just don't see how it's valuable to define those as "failures". i suppose if you'd like to use dictionary-specified terms, that's what they were. but i just don't see the value in calling them that.

Quote:

I guess I'm just one of those "call a fish a fish" kind of people. I refer to things by what they are.
and there's the big difference between us. i believe that we are responsible for shifting or examining our understandings of what things are, or how we interpret the world around us. language, terminology, semantics, etc..are *critical* to this process. i certainly don't agree it's sufficient to just use "face value" terminology if it doesn't resonate with my personal beliefs.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Why is it so bad to look at the try/fail? See this I don't get, you are saying tha failure is not a bad thing, but then you refuse to refer to not succeeding what you set out to do as failure.

because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new

i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Because they are two different learning experiences. When I fail, I learn by what I did wrong. When I succeed I learn by what I did right.

or, you learned by what you did. and you learned by what you did. why must you harp on the "wrong" vs "right" part? the outcome is the same.

Quote:

I fail and think "Ok, I won't do it that way again."
I succeed and think "Ok, that works. There's one way to do it."
sure, and that makes complete sense. i, on the other hand, choose to do and think "ok, that was the result that time. if i want that result again, i know what to do. if i don't, i know what to not do."


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I don't feel there are inherent limits to failure.

Failure lets me see the other results of what I do. In the lab, it means that failing to achieve one result can provide information for the future and what you did wrong to do one thing could be right for another.

I see no reason to define getting a result other then what is aimed for anything other then what it is. Failure is a word. It has only the limitations you place on it, and only the problems you give it.

I have changed how I interpret failure, even if I haven't changed the definition.

Failure was "can't do it, won't try again, no use because I'm not good enough."
Failure is "Ok, that was... interesting... Hmmm, well this is where things started to go wrong, so obviously doing this wasn't a good idea, next time I'll try doing something else there."


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
or, you learned by what you did. and you learned by what you did. why must you harp on the "wrong" vs "right" part? the outcome is the same.

sure, and that makes complete sense. i, on the other hand, choose to do and think "ok, that was the result that time. if i want that result again, i know what to do. if i don't, i know what to not do."

Yeah but why would I want to generalize the result with the collection of actions?

The dog vomit omelette didn't turn out great, but I didn't discredit everything I did to make it, only the things I did that made it turn out the way it did.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new

i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.

I can assure you my internal dialogue is not that mundane.

Nothing wrong with acknowledging I failed. It makes me human.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new

i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.

Love it, I totally agree.

I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. *You ARE DOING it*."

That was a moment that sort of helped shape my view on try. I can imagine how differently my birth may have gone if she would have said "c'mon, just try!" ... or...."keep trying".


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Pulled out the definition because it is the definition I put to failure, since IncaMama felt the need to define her version of failure for me, I simply returned the favour.

we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Failure is a word. It has only the limitations you place on it, and only the problems you give it.

that would be true if we weren't social creatures living in a world acted upon by others. we co-construct values.

Quote:

I have changed how I interpret failure, even if I haven't changed the definition.

Failure was "can't do it, won't try again, no use because I'm not good enough."
Failure is "Ok, that was... interesting... Hmmm, well this is where things started to go wrong, so obviously doing this wasn't a good idea, next time I'll try doing something else there."
and i have done the same. i have just taken it one step further.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I can assure you my internal dialogue is not that mundane.

i should hope not. i also hope you understand the general point i was trying to make.

Quote:

Nothing wrong with acknowledging I failed. It makes me human.
i think that what makes you human is infinitely more complex than that, and i choose to open up my philosophy to something beyond trying and failing. i acknowledge that i get unexpected or undesired results all the time. i just don't see why it's so important to come at it from a try/fail perspective.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 

I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. *You ARE DOING it*."


LOL my midwife said the same thing to me. i then proceeded to curse at her in three languages and tell her to find some other way to get the kid out of my body.







:


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.

Well I find that not acknowledging my failures doesn't let me as readily learn from them. I refuse to acknowledge it as what it is, then I refuse to acknowledge it and forget anything and everything that goes along with it.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Well I find that not acknowledging my failures doesn't let me as readily learn from them. I refuse to acknowledge it as what it is, then I refuse to acknowledge it and forget anything and everything that goes along with it.

hm. i always found that "failure" shuts my brain down much quicker. different strokes...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 

I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. *You ARE DOING it*."

That was a moment that sort of helped shape my view on try. I can imagine how differently my birth may have gone if she would have said "c'mon, just try!" ... or...."keep trying".

See you keep mentioning all or nothing situations. I mean, one way or another that baby is coming out so there are very few way to fail at childbirth and it's not something you can just "try".

I was opening a can with the can opener today. I worked at it for a while, but we have a crap can opener. I tried, I failed, there were still three points of the lid stuck to the can. I passed the job on to DH because I was stuck. He pulls out a knife and jimmies two of the connected points to finish opening the can.

I tried. I failed.
DH tried. Did do it.

Oh yeah, and I learned too because I stuck around to watch.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

my midwife said the same thing to me. because I WAS doing it.

MusicianDad everything you have said is well put.

I have no problem with philosophy, I'm just not in the business of trying to redefine the English language. Many times people give words new meaning because they don't know the word for the meaning they intend.

I understand though if some people can;t handle failure so they avoid the term. if thats what you need to do to learn from an experience and move forward fine. I am strong enough to handle failing though. It's never limited me. In fact, I find is strengthens me to understand its possible I can fail. I knew that some women fail in pushing the baby out, so when it was time to push I tried harder then I would have if I thought "oh i'll just do it" I realized that its HARD and it doesnt JUST HAPPEN. you don't just squat down and a baby pops out and hey look I did it. Many women think pushing isn't hard and wait until they have been pushing for 2 hours before they REALLY push. I knew getting the pushing over with quickly was something that I *could* potentially fail at, and for that reason I have never pushed more then 10 minutes with any of my children. Or I just keep getting lucky, but hey you have your philosophies and I have mine. I just am able to have philosophies without changing the definition of words.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.

wow, you did not grow up in the same society that i did then. i was not raised to "try and fail" I was raised to "try your best to succeed" why would someone TRY to fail? yeah, that would be mentally draining. now I see why you think the way you do!

trying IS a positive mindset for me. what you describe if I took that on would be more negative, so just have to keep in mind that trying isn't negative to everyone.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

my mind is open to INCLUDE do, dont do, try, fail, and succeed. to me I'd have to shut my mind to not be willing to accept some of those possibilities. I understand you shut it because you can cope better without those words. thats good you know how to deal with failure in your own way, whatever way that may be, whatever new word you give it.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
See you keep mentioning all or nothing situations. I mean, one way or another that baby is coming out so there are very few way to fail at childbirth and it's not something you can just "try".

It's even possible to give birth naturally while unconscious.









Giving birth is more a matter of being than either trying or doing, imho.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though







:

I don't have to ask the child why he "can't" find the shoes 2 feet in front of him. I already know why and see no reason why I should give him an opportunity to lie about it. Finding his shoes that are 2 feet in front of him is part of raising children who are responsible for their own possessions and actions.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
I don't have to ask the child why he "can't" find the shoes 2 feet in front of him. I already know why and see no reason why I should give him an opportunity to lie about it. Finding his shoes that are 2 feet in front of him is part of raising children who are responsible for their own possessions and actions.

My parents felt the same way, until they found out I was legally blind and realized that I in fact, was not lying if I said I couldn't find something that was obvious to them.

mommysarah is simply stating that it's a good idea to try and figure out why a child is unwilling (or unable) to do something.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I think musiciandad and myself gave good example why it might be good to find out. it's not about lying. my children don't need a chance to lie because the truth would be accepted, so they'd just tell me the real reason why.

4evermom - the unconcious question is a good one. Would the mother still be having contractions? If so wouldn't the contractions just push the baby out? not my area of expertise.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
My parents felt the same way, until they found out I was legally blind and realized that I in fact, was not lying if I said I couldn't find something that was obvious to them.

mommysarah is simply stating that it's a good idea to try and figure out why a child is unwilling (or unable) to do something.

by the way I am really sorry you had to do that. I was accused a lot of lying growing up when I wasn't. Funny thing was, that it taught me HOW to lie, and so although I kept being accused of lying when I wasn't, when I was I always got away with it. As an adult I learned the real importance of honesty. I do still tell white lies sometimes though, or well - whats it called when you just leave out a few details so you can answer honestly without hurting the other person? yeah I admit, I still do that.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
4evermom - the unconcious question is a good one. Would the mother still be having contractions? If so wouldn't the contractions just push the baby out? not my area of expertise.

Yes they would. It wasn't a question but a fact that is has and can happen.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Okay thats what I thought







Yeah, some things you don't have to try or do, tey just happen, for sure







I was pretty sure childbirth was one of them, but ya know I don't like to pretend I know something when I'm not really sure. Thanks for teaching me something new tonight


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Wow, who woulda thunk a little Yoda could make for over 10 pages of conversation!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

wow I used a lot of







in my last post. I don't know why I'm so happy. It must be possible to be brought great joy just at the idea of trying new things LOL


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isamama* 
Wow, who woulda thunk a little Yoda could make for over 10 pages of conversation!









yeah especially since it wasn't even Yoda to begin with!


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I think it's interesting that people on both sides of this debate see the other side as not tolerant of failure. Some of the "tryers" see the "doers" as saying that to just try is to welcome failure, and that failure is unacceptable. And some of the "doers" see the "tryers" as saying that just trying equals success, and that failure is unacceptable.

I'm confident that none of us are teaching our children that failure is unacceptable/unavoidable/necessarily negative. This seems to be mostly a semantic debate, and I'm sure the kids in "try" households and the kids in "do" households will pick up on not only their parents' word choice, but also their tone, emotion, and overall philosophy over time, and chances are that most kids of the insightful parents participating in this thread know they're loved and supported, whether their parents use "try" verbage or "do" verbage.









I'm thinking that the differences is in how we look at things. Those in the "do/do not/there is no try" camp are process people. It's all in the process, not so much the goal that we are interested in. If we don't get the results, we say wow that's an interesting result. What would happen if we did this instead. Those in the "try" camp are more goal orientated. If you don't get the goal you want, you consider it a failure.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
My parents felt the same way, until they found out I was legally blind and realized that I in fact, was not lying if I said I couldn't find something that was obvious to them.

mommysarah is simply stating that it's a good idea to try and figure out why a child is unwilling (or unable) to do something.


But the difference is that you always couldn't see the shoes. You didn't find the shoes 2 feet in front of you the first 50 times, then couldn't find the shoes the 51st time, and then could for the next 25 times. By the time I was 12, I was wearing glasses full time because of severe myopia and astigmatism. It wasn't found out until 6th grade because before that I always sat in the first row in class where I could see the black board. By Christmas (or at least a couple of months into the school year; after all it was 47 years ago), the teacher and my parents had enough evidence that there was something wrong. And I got glasses. Any excuse I had after that for talking in class wasn't because I couldn't see the black board.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

People can have vision and then loose it. I used to be able to read street signs. Now I can't. I try. It's not a cop out. Yes I read them thousands of times before, but then one day I couldn't anymore. there may be an emotional reason they aren't looking for their shoes, avoiding a departure for a reason other then what you think (they dont want to go to papa s house because last time he was touching them - doesnt want to go to school because someone is picking on them, etc)

chris said "I'm thinking that the differences is in how we look at things. Those in the "do/do not/there is no try" camp are process people. It's all in the process, not so much the goal that we are interested in. If we don't get the results, we say wow that's an interesting result. What would happen if we did this instead. Those in the "try" camp are more goal orientated. If you don't get the goal you want, you consider it a failure."

nope, thats not it. I am a process person. We all have a goal in mind. Unless you are saying you never have a goal for anything, then okay I can see that. Like if you never think "time to make dinner" and then go to do it. Are you saying you would just do it, or do you also have the goal of making something the family will enjoy eating? So, I have goals, but it's still about the process. Maybe the difference is not having goals? If you hav no goals then yes I can see how that is different. For me, I am at point A with intention of point B when I begin to take action. It is in the process, but the process is what teachers me how to get to point B, which is the goal. The end result is NOT the only thing that matters. rocess people. It's all in the process, not so much the goal that we are interested in. I also believe "If we don't get the results, we say wow that's an interesting result. What would happen if we did this instead?" we are no different in that area. I'm still am capable of handling acknowledging the fact that my intention was to get to point B, and it turns out this is either a)one way to get there or b)one way not to get there. I still DID something. but im not so fragile I can't admit that I didn't do WHAT I had initially set out to do. It's in the process, just my process INCLUDES the result - but obviously the process includes result for yuo too if you are looking at it and calling it interesting and wondering what ould happen if you did it different. I think the only difference here is that some people have a hard time with the idea of failure because they look at it negatively. They can't handle it. Both parties are obviously interested in the process. If we weren't interested in the process THEN we'd be saying "oh this is what I did" or "oh this is what I didn't do" but since we are interested in the process we say "this is what I set out to do, and then this is what happened." instead of just "this is what happened" if anything, its the trying peope that are process people. the do or dont do seem to be the result people (the result of my actons is all that matters, the proces (trying) doesn't matter)

all in all, its the same thing, just some people are calling an apple an apple and some people are calling an apple an orange because it fits better with their philosophy.

With parenting especially it's all about the process. While some people are set out to get xyz behavior from their child (get the shoes) I am more interested in the PROCESS of them getting their shoes. Why don't why want to get their shoes?

As a product of the "there is no try" camp, I can say it hurt me more then it helped me and thats why it shaped my decision this way. Some of you seem to have opposite experiences, except your experience is with people use use the words "i'll try" to mean "i dont plan on doing it" while we use the word try to me "ill give it my all, ill do my best, and whatever the result it will be good because I can learn from it"


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I have no problem with philosophy, I'm just not in the business of trying to redefine the English language. Many times people give words new meaning because they don't know the word for the meaning they intend.

well i'm not in that "business" either, i just enjoy thinking for myself.

Quote:

I understand though if some people can;t handle failure so they avoid the term. if thats what you need to do to learn from an experience and move forward fine. I am strong enough to handle failing though. It's never limited me. In fact, I find is strengthens me to understand its possible I can fail.








: oh lord here we go again. it isn't about me not being able to "handle" failure.









Quote:

but hey you have your philosophies and I have mine. I just am able to have philosophies without changing the definition of words.
oooh then you must be a better philosopher.









this is so pointless. *sigh*


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
wow, you did not grow up in the same society that i did then. i was not raised to "try and fail" I was raised to "try your best to succeed" why would someone TRY to fail? yeah, that would be mentally draining. now I see why you think the way you do!

trying IS a positive mindset for me. what you describe if I took that on would be more negative, so just have to keep in mind that trying isn't negative to everyone.

oh come ON you know what i meant. of course i wasn't encouraged to FAIL. i meant that i was raised within that paradigm. the one you're clinging to with white knuckles.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
my mind is open to INCLUDE do, dont do, try, fail, and succeed. to me I'd have to shut my mind to not be willing to accept some of those possibilities. I understand you shut it because you can cope better without those words. thats good you know how to deal with failure in your own way, whatever way that may be, whatever new word you give it.

once again, it's not about "coping better" without it. somehow you've gleaned from my posts that i'm some traumatized, fragile thing that can't "handle failure". not sure how that happened, but whatever.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I think the only difference here is that some people have a hard time with the idea of failure because they look at it negatively. They can't handle it.

oh good GRIEF, woman.

Quote:

the do or dont do seem to be the result people (the result of my actons is all that matters, the proces (trying) doesn't matter)
yeah, that's not even remotely true.

Quote:

all in all, its the same thing, just some people are calling an apple an apple and some people are calling an apple an orange because it fits better with their philosophy.








well you can keep on thinkin' that then if it makes you feel better.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

hey you said it not me. you like to think for yourself and dont want a dictionary telling you what the definition is of a word - thats fine! its your choice. I don't see anything wrong with it. The "trying paradigm" you speak of is not the same one I experienced, thats all. Sometimes it's not "society" its the way people interpret whats going on in society. You say the the trying things as an excuse to fail or negative. I saw it as the process of doing the best you can and learning from the process whether you reach intended goal or not.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

BTW sorry for being flippant, I can't help but respond to flippant comments by being flippant myself. Those comments that were making you all good grief woman were all in resposes where *I* was thinking good grief woman but replied flippantly instead. its part of my bad sense of humor thing I got going for me


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
well i'm not in that "business" either, i just enjoy thinking for myself.

hey pot, meet kettle.
good grief woman, I enjoy thinking for myself to *sigh*
LOL more bad humor sorry.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

It cracks me up the way these little things turn into black and white absolutes. We're all either Do or Try people, and we either embrace the process or we're focused on success/failure.

I don't think it's a harmful phrase--and I probably identify with more of the arguments for using the phrase and why Try is kind of a weak word than the other arguments.

I actually don't have much of a concept of failure--though I am sure someone else might look at my life and be able to point out many failures--I just don't look at it like that. That's what I meant by taking your self out of it. I just do things all day. Sometimes I do them successfully, sometimes not so successfully. I'm leaving to go work out in a bit and I'd like to run for 30 minutes at a certain speed but if it doesn't happen I'm not going to think "I tried and failed"--I'll think "I did xyz this morning." And that's not my motivational pep-talk, it's just my normal inner-dialogue. My talks with DD are pretty similar--I don't really focus on daily failures or achievements that much.

All that said--this thread has totally made me notice how often the word TRY comes up all day long! Whether in my own conversation (and it does--I'm not an anti-try activist or anything) or on tv.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

The bottom line regarding "try" is that some people need the word "try" to insulate themselves from the possibility that they may fail, or as a comfort to themselves when they fail. "Well, I tried! That is what matters!" I am not afraid of "failing", nor am I afraid of "not doing". I just don't need the word "try" to cushion what is apparently a paper-thin self esteem that needs a lot of stroking to be okay with not accomplishing what one sets out to do.

I think enough of myself to not need that ego stroke. It is okay to have "not done". It is okay to have "failed" (no matter what that means to you). I don't need to lick my wounds with a chorus of "you tried!" in my inner dialogue to be okay.

I do and do not do. Sometimes I do, sometimes I do not do. Sometimes I do AND do not do, sometimes I do, THEN do not do. "Trying" is a state of inaction, unwilling to make the commitment to act. In most cases, a cop-out.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
The "trying paradigm" you speak of is not the same one I experienced, thats all. Sometimes it's not "society" its the way people interpret whats going on in society.

lol yes, of course. it's called phenomenology. and is at the center of my point as well. in fact, it's *always* about how we interpret things. you and i interpret things very differently.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IncaMama* 
lol yes, of course. it's called phenomenology. and is at the center of my point as well. in fact, it's *always* about how we interpret things. you and i interpret things very differently.

indeed. and nothing wrong with that. and thats why just my opinions comment on the word try is the complete opposite of what try means to me.

see your side thinks its those who see try.do.dont do.fail.succeed as not needing to cushion their delicate ego. We feel the same of those who don't use the words try, fail, succeed. It's semantics really. I only said what I said to make the point that it can be the very opposite can be the same. What justmy says about using the word try can be said about not using the word try. its all in semantics. some peopel use the word try for the rest just said, and some don't use it for the reason I said. It seems those of us here are using try and not using try for the exact same reason though. So I don't see a big deal about the word. its just a word. some people use it, some people dont - but we are both doing so for the same reasons.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

trying is a state of action that leads to result. if you do something, then its done, which is past tense. trying is present tense. its the process that brings you from something you have done to the next thing you plan to do (or doesn't bring you to the next thing you plan to do, but someting different that you end up doing) Trying IS my commitment to act. It's me saying I am plan to go from here to _____________here. Then either I do or I dont, but its my intent to do. trying is the intent to do. by time you do something, its done, or you are in the process of doing it but you don't know if it will be done. sometimes you try before you do, sometimes you try while doing, depends on the situation. is not black and white, one way or the other. I don;t need to lick my wounds either, but I also dont need to try to prevent myself from getting them in the first place.

Trying is not a cop out. If I don't want to do something I dont do it. I wouldnt waste my time trying to do something I dont want to do.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

...and I disagree. Either you are doing something or you are not doing something. The difference is, you obviously believe something can't be counted as a "do" unless it is done to the specifications _you've_ defined. Enter the word try. A sort of insurance policy that even if you wind up "not doing" or "failing", you're still a swell, worthwhile person, because hey, you tried!! Yay!

I am worthwhile even when I have not done. Even when I have "failed". I am okay with committing to do or not do. I am okay with owning my "not doing" or my "doing".


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Disengaging now


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
...and I disagree. Either you are doing something or you are not doing something. The difference is, you obviously believe something can't be counted as a "do" unless it is done to the specifications _you've_ defined. Enter the word try. A sort of insurance policy that even if you wind up "not doing" or "failing", you're still a swell, worthwhile person, because hey, you tried!! Yay!

I am worthwhile even when I have not done. Even when I have "failed". I am okay with committing to do or not do. I am okay with owning my "not doing" or my "doing".

No, it can be counted as a do even if its not what I intended, its just still something different then what I set out to do.

If I set out to paint a sunset but it looks more like a mystical ocean view, well i have still painted. But I painted a mystical ocean view, not the sunset I had set out to paint. If I need the painting of a sunset I may sit down again to paint. I'm not going to say I DID paint a sunset it just LOOKS like a mystical ocean. I can accept that I DID paint, but I DIDNT paint what I tried. I'm NOT going to say "I still tried Im a swell person." "I'm going to say - hmmm, next time I'll use a different brush to acheive the desired effect."

It's not about "yay I tried, im still a swell person" im a swell person even when I don't try. I'm a swell person when I say "no, I just don't want to do that" I'm a swell person when I do it, and when I dont and when I try. its not because I tried, its because I am a good person while I try, and while I do, and while I dont do. I am okay with owning my doing or not doing, I just am not afraid to use the word trying to describe the process. it's just a word. I use it for what it means literally. when i say try I am not using YOUR philosophical redefinition of the word.

We are doing the same thing, I just call it an apple and you call it an orange


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Disengaging now









may the force be with you


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Seriously, this is kind of hilarious at this point.

Side A: You can't handle failure, so you won't even try. I am okay with failing, so I'm not scared to try.
Side B: You can't handle failure, so you say that just trying equals success. I am okay with failing, so I don't sugarcoat it with words like "try."

And 'round and 'round and 'round we go...







:


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Seriously, this is kind of hilarious at this point.

Side A: You can't handle failure, so you won't even try. I am okay with failing, so I'm not scared to try.
Side B: You can't handle failure, so you say that just trying equals success. I am okay with failing, so I don't sugarcoat it with words like "try."

And 'round and 'round and 'round we go...







:

exactly! its the same thing, its just different words. It's like putting one of those black and white cookies on the table and standing on opposite sides.
I see a black and white cookie
I see a white and black cookie

lets just chew it up and spit it out, it's all the same color in the end









My only standpoint is that I think we are seeing things the same way and indefinitely it with different words. The difference seems to be that I see nothing wrong with the word try. its just a word that describes the action of doing something with intent. If other people don't want to use the word fine, but who cares if some people use the word try? and how is it bad to use the word try because other people are giving it a new definition... mind boggling. I mean, what if I decided that the new definition of the word "do" was hate, which would mean all your actions are hateful. Why would my new definition of the word be better then the definition of the old one. And if people who are doing are going by the original meaning of the world, then they are still doing the same thing I am, even if I don't like the word they use or have some philosophy that defines it.

Again, in the end, its all the same color. we are looking at the same philosophy, just using different words to describe it.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

1) I think it's perfectly fine to say this to your preschooler if you know your preschooler, you know that this will inspire not squash or frustrate her. Some exceptionally talented people are really competitive and love a challenge, and that kind of statement is just right up their ally. My understanding is that some Olympic athletes are like this, from the time they are very little. And where do they get this talent and competitiveness? Their parents. So it's appropriate in that context.

2) However, I think the virtue that a lot of successful people have is that _they don't give up_ when, inevitably, they don't achieve their goal the first time. When they don't learn a song the first time they sit down at the piano it doesn't occur to them that it's a 'failure'. They simply haven't learned it yet.

----------

Edited to say, oh good heavens there are 11 pages!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I can see it that an attempt is a failure, without feeling that acheivement is hopeless or that nothing has been achieved. I can see the success in failure. For me though, it helps to say "I wanted to accomplish this, this is what I did, I didn't end up where I was aiming for." from there I can say "turned out here is even better, or, okay let's try that again - next time I'll do it differently" To accept I have fail in an single attempt is not the same as thinking I am a failure. I don't even use the term failure and not sure how it has anything to do with trying. I mean it is what it is if you fail at an attempt, and no I dont think the only thing that matters is trying. It's just this is what I do

try and succeed
or try and fail and try again until I succeed

I don't see myself saying to my child "you failed" but I do see myself saying "you can try again. you learned something from this."

I suppose I see things as set backs. Of course unless its a one time thing that you can't try again, in which case I am okay with accepting that I missed the mark, bu I got as close to the mark as I could. It's still no the mark, its still upsetting, saying I tried my best doesn't change that, but I'm still happier to be in a the place you get when you try your hardest then the place you get when you dont try at all.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Seriously, this is kind of hilarious at this point.

No kidding.

Try simply means to make an effort or an attempt (yes, that's a dictionary definition). How people can turn it into a loaded word that speaks volumes of self esteem, success, and failure eludes me.

It's usually annoying when people use words they don't mean. (People redefining words can add to the confusion, lol.) It can be annoying if someone says they will try if they have no intention to do so. Just as it's annoying when someone says they are going to do something that they aren't going to. Whichever word you use, the problem is with intent and clear communication, not the word.

One issue with kids that I've run into is some have strong perfectionist tendencies and are reluctant to try unless they are sure they can succeed. Learning to try can be an important step for these kinds of people, one that opens many doors to many new experiences.

Another thing that I feel is important to keep in mind is that someone is not equally as capable at all times. Some days I throw pots and my fingers are like magic. Other days, everything turns to mud. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the clay, but the effort is equal while the results are not. With children (hell, with myself, too), capabilities are often related to their emotional state, fatigue level, hunger level, even the weather. A child may be able to find and put his shoes on in the morning but he might need more help in the evening.


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## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

The Greek philospher Epitectus said "Of all existing things some are in our power, and others are not in our power. In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing. Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing. Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammeled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others."

The things that in our power, we do. The things that are not in our power, we try.

(seeing that we philosophise here...







)


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
No kidding.

Try simply means to make an effort or an attempt (yes, that's a dictionary definition). How people can turn it into a loaded word that speaks volumes of self esteem, success, and failure eludes me.

Agreed.

I still love yoda, though.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Just as it's annoying when someone says they are going to do something that they aren't going to. .

well put.

Situation:
"Can you baby sit for me tonight."
"What time"
"8pm"
"I will be in class until 7:45 so I'm not sure if I'll get there on time but I'll try"

Then I do my best and I either get there at 8 or I get there a little late.

Situation 2:
"Can you baby sit for me tonight."
"What time"
"8pm"
"Yes I will do that"

Maybe I DO get there on time... or maybe...
Then there is a car accident on the way home from class, or I drop all my books and I have to stop to pick them up. I get there 15 minutes late. The person was counting on me being there at 8 and bought tickets online for something that starts at 8:30. They could have gone with the 9 o clock tickets, but I had said I will DO that (be there at 8). Now I have made someone elses life harder simply because I wouldn't just use the word try?
sn't mean I try any less hard, just means I accept that there are some things not in our control. Trying is something I do.

Seriosa - I love how you put it







I think that sums it up.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I've always said that people who say they are going to "try" for natural childbirth are quite unlikely to get it.
Amen to that. I heard so many people when I worked at WIC go "I tried to breastfeed" who had quit two days or a week in.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Whichever word you use, the problem is with intent and clear communication, not the word.

Excellent point. Even in the "put your shoes on" example that keeps being brought up in this thread, if the kid said, "I am" but clearly wasn't, it'd be just as exasperating as if he said, "I'll try" even though the shoes were right in front of him and he'd done it hundreds of times before.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
But the difference is that you always couldn't see the shoes. You didn't find the shoes 2 feet in front of you the first 50 times, then couldn't find the shoes the 51st time, and then could for the next 25 times. By the time I was 12, I was wearing glasses full time because of severe myopia and astigmatism. It wasn't found out until 6th grade because before that I always sat in the first row in class where I could see the black board. By Christmas (or at least a couple of months into the school year; after all it was 47 years ago), the teacher and my parents had enough evidence that there was something wrong. And I got glasses. Any excuse I had after that for talking in class wasn't because I couldn't see the black board.

In the shoe situation (which never happened here because shoes in my how never left the front entry way) it would have been a 50/50 thing. Sometimes I would find them, sometimes not but bot for lack of trying.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
The bottom line regarding "try" is that some people need the word "try" to insulate themselves from the possibility that they may fail, or as a comfort to themselves when they fail. "Well, I tried! That is what matters!" I am not afraid of "failing", nor am I afraid of "not doing". I just don't need the word "try" to cushion what is apparently a paper-thin self esteem that needs a lot of stroking to be okay with not accomplishing what one sets out to do.

I think enough of myself to not need that ego stroke. It is okay to have "not done". It is okay to have "failed" (no matter what that means to you). I don't need to lick my wounds with a chorus of "you tried!" in my inner dialogue to be okay.

I do and do not do. Sometimes I do, sometimes I do not do. Sometimes I do AND do not do, sometimes I do, THEN do not do. "Trying" is a state of inaction, unwilling to make the commitment to act. In most cases, a cop-out.

See, here we go with the "paper thin self esteem".

As someone who tries, I do not have a low or paper thin self esteem. I don't need constant reassurance. I just don't want to ignore the fact that there is a different between flat out not doing something and trying to do something and failing. One is purly the end result of not attempting, the other is the end result of attempting but not managing.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
One is purly the end result of not attempting, the other is the end result of attempting but not managing.

exactly - and you can't learn something if you don't even try in the first place, so even if the visual result if the same between not attempting and trying, there is the mental result - the knowledge you gain in the process.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I tried for a natural birth, and I had one.
My friend tried for a natural birth, she had one.
My aunt tried for a natural birth, she had one.
The women who works at the front desk of the school tried for a natural birth, she had one.
One of my children's classmates parents tried for a natural birth 3 times. She had it the first 2 time. the second time she had full placenta previa.

You are more likely to fail at a natural birth if you don't try then if you do. Yes some people fail at them, its not BECAUSE they tried though.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
...and I disagree. Either you are doing something or you are not doing something. The difference is, you obviously believe something can't be counted as a "do" unless it is done to the specifications _you've_ defined. Enter the word try. A sort of insurance policy that even if you wind up "not doing" or "failing", you're still a swell, worthwhile person, because hey, you tried!! Yay!

I am worthwhile even when I have not done. Even when I have "failed". I am okay with committing to do or not do. I am okay with owning my "not doing" or my "doing".

You really need to stop assuming that just because someone is willing to try they have need some sort of cusion. Trying is not a cop out, it is the act of performing action with the expectation that you will reach the "did it" point.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Excellent point. Even in the "put your shoes on" example that keeps being brought up in this thread, if the kid said, "I am" but clearly wasn't, it'd be just as exasperating as if he said, "I'll try" even though the shoes were right in front of him and he'd done it hundreds of times before.

yep


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

: This sounds like an interesting place to sit and watch.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
You really need to stop assuming that just because someone is willing to try they have need some sort of cusion. Trying is not a cop out, it is the act of performing action with the expectation that you will reach the "did it" point.

exactly. not doing is the cop out. of course if someone says they will try with the INTENT to not do it then is a cop out. but if they are trying by the definition of the word trying then its not a cop out.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
1) I think it's perfectly fine to say this to your preschooler if you know your preschooler, you know that this will inspire not squash or frustrate her. Some exceptionally talented people are really competitive and love a challenge, and that kind of statement is just right up their ally. My understanding is that some Olympic athletes are like this, from the time they are very little. And where do they get this talent and competitiveness? Their parents. So it's appropriate in that context.

2) However, I think the virtue that a lot of successful people have is that _they don't give up_ when, inevitably, they don't achieve their goal the first time. When they don't learn a song the first time they sit down at the piano it doesn't occur to them that it's a 'failure'. They simply haven't learned it yet.

----------

Edited to say, oh good heavens there are 11 pages!

I would consider it a failure, it doesn't mean I will give up. I will take it to mean that next time I need to read the notes and maybe play at a slower tempo so I can learn the song properly before playing properly.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 







: This sounds like an interesting place to sit and watch.









Geez, you aren't doing or trying. You're just copping out!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I can see it that an attempt is a failure, without feeling that acheivement is hopeless or that nothing has been achieved. I can see the success in failure. For me though, it helps to say "I wanted to accomplish this, this is what I did, I didn't end up where I was aiming for." from there I can say "turned out here is even better, or, okay let's try that again - next time I'll do it differently" To accept I have fail in an single attempt is not the same as thinking I am a failure. I don't even use the term failure and not sure how it has anything to do with trying. I mean it is what it is if you fail at an attempt, and no I dont think the only thing that matters is trying. It's just this is what I do

try and succeed
or try and fail and try again until I succeed

I don't see myself saying to my child "you failed" but I do see myself saying "you can try again. you learned something from this."

I suppose I see things as set backs. Of course unless its a one time thing that you can't try again, in which case I am okay with accepting that I missed the mark, bu I got as close to the mark as I could. It's still no the mark, its still upsetting, saying I tried my best doesn't change that, but I'm still happier to be in a the place you get when you try your hardest then the place you get when you dont try at all.









:


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seriosa* 
The Greek philospher Epitectus said "Of all existing things some are in our power, and others are not in our power. In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing. Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing. Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammeled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others."

The things that in our power, we do. The things that are not in our power, we try.

(seeing that we philosophise here...







)

I prefer not to assign something as in my power or not in my power until I know for sure whether I can do them or not. In order for that I need to try multipul times. It may turn out that every single time I try something in my life I will fail. I don't know yet which things those will be, I only know which ones they won't be because I have at some point succeeded.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I tried for a natural birth, and I had one.
My friend tried for a natural birth, she had one.
My aunt tried for a natural birth, she had one.
The women who works at the front desk of the school tried for a natural birth, she had one.
One of my children's classmates parents tried for a natural birth 3 times. She had it the first 2 time. the second time she had full placenta previa.

You are more likely to fail at a natural birth if you don't try then if you do. Yes some people fail at them, its not BECAUSE they tried though.

Baby momma tried for a natural birth and she had one. She always made it clear that she would "try" but gave no promises that she wouldn't need medical intervention.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Geez, you aren't doing or trying. You're just copping out!

















Yep, that's me. Not trying or doing.







But it is fun watching everyone trying and doing.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 







Yep, that's me. Not trying or doing.







But it is fun watching everyone trying and doing.









BUT! You can't fail this way!


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snuzzmom* 
BUT! You can't fail this way!









So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

To Mommysarah5 (post #193): No that's not what I'm saying. A process child is the one who builds something with Legos, then immediately takes it apart to build something else. And frequently doesn't show off his original creation to anyone. It is the process of building that is important, not the end result. The result just means that the process worked out as envisioned. And if it doesn't, it's no big deal.

I sew not because I want the end result of the garment but because of the process of sewing. I can get depressed when the end is reached. I hate the interval between one finished project and the beginning of the next.

To take your cooking example, Joy loves to cook. But it's still the process of cooking that is important to her. She had made stuff that she doesn't like or can't eat but makes it anyway simply because she wanted to cook. She baked carrot cake from scratch (including hand shredding the carrots) simply because she wanted to and had never done it. While the carrot cake was for Adam's birthday, he would have been happy with a box or even store bought. It was the process of baking the cake from scratch that was important, not the cake itself.

In parenting, the goal is reached 18-20 some years after the birth of the child. The finding the shoes 2 feet in front of the child is part of the process, not a goal.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?









Uh... yes!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?

















Of course I am succeeding!







And enjoying the process of not doing or trying along the way.








:


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
To Mommysarah5 (post #193): No that's not what I'm saying. A process child is the one who builds something with Legos, then immediately takes it apart to build something else. And frequently doesn't show off his original creation to anyone. It is the process of building that is important, not the end result. The result just means that the process worked out as envisioned. And if it doesn't, it's no big deal.

I sew not because I want the end result of the garment but because of the process of sewing. I can get depressed when the end is reached. I hate the interval between one finished project and the beginning of the next.

To take your cooking example, Joy loves to cook. But it's still the process of cooking that is important to her. She had made stuff that she doesn't like or can't eat but makes it anyway simply because she wanted to cook. She baked carrot cake from scratch (including hand shredding the carrots) simply because she wanted to and had never done it. While the carrot cake was for Adam's birthday, he would have been happy with a box or even store bought. It was the process of baking the cake from scratch that was important, not the cake itself.

In parenting, the goal is reached 18-20 some years after the birth of the child. The finding the shoes 2 feet in front of the child is part of the process, not a goal.

Yes, that is a process also. I also have hobbies or activities I like to do just because I like to do them. Sometimes I do have an end result in mind. Like if im constipated I DO want to make sure I get all that stuff out so I'm not uncomfortable anymore. The end result matters. If I'm listening to music, its not about the end result. its just something I enjoy doing. I don't enjoy poopin though - thats entirely bout the end result - for me anyway. And when I'm constipated I DO try to get it out, and it does matter if it comes out or not. thankfully I only experience constipation when pregnant.

I do see goals along the way in life. Goals that are a part of a bigger process. For some people, the "goal" is stolen from them when their child dies. So I don;t try to look at it as reaching a certain birthday. I look at all the things we do and accomplish along the way and I enjoy all the moments. I dont turn finding shoes into an issue, but I will support them to see if there is an issue preventing them from finding the shoes. We eliminate issues, not make them.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

and sometimes I cook because I enjoy cooking, and sometimes I cook because I am hungry. So sometimes the end results matter. If the food is burnt so bad I can't bite into it, and im starving, then i have to restart the process because it was a process with an intended end result (to eat)

if the proces if just about baking for enjoyment, then the end result doesn't matter.

This is me. I dont liek in a black or white world. My world is a rainbow. Sometimes I try, sometimes I dont try, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't do. Sometimes its all about the process, sometimes its about the end result, sometimes the result is part of another process, sometimes the process is the result. I'm not limiting myself to "do" or "don't do" I'm just going to live life with everything included from doing to not doing to trying to results and processes to success and failure to learning experiences. I experience joy and happiness and I can handle dissapointment and sorrow. I do not let words like try limit me, not do I find the word try limiting. It's not one way or the other for me. Some poeple live very happy lives having it one way or the other though and thats okay. I think that the do or don't do is good - I include that within my options. I just also add the options of one of the things I can do is to try, and that sometimes I have an end result in mind and sometimes I don't.

the bottom line that I am seeing here is that some people feel limited by trying, so they don't use it. And some people would feel limited if they excluded trying from their lives. In the end we are all trying using the approach that puts the least amount of limits on us. We are getting to the same place, we're just taking different paths to get there. I would hope that a person who feels that trying is a cop out would not try. At the same time, for those who do more in life because they do try, I hope they never stop trying (and doing, and accomplishing, and learning, and everything else that both the trier-doers and the just-doers do)


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