# CIO and my response



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

oh my god, ithink there has been a MAJOR misunderstanding
i had NO idea that i would create such angry chaos!
in case you have not read my other posts....i LOVE mothering.com
LOVE it
suggest it to mothers and use it as often as my busy life allows
that said
i also consider my self to be a loving dedicated mother.
the situation i was writing about was:
a-the hardest mothering stretch i had experienced thus far
b-something i did want help with
c-if i had not been so sleep deprived i probably would have expressed it better , but i thought i made it clear that i wanted input about what was good and bad about what i had done
d-along those lines, i wrote it after my first night of sleep so if isounded happy about what had happened or even pro CIO, it was because i was soooooooooooooo happy that i had finally gotten some sleep and so had my MISRABLE baby.

i did not mean to imply that i was going to continue to work that as a solution.
i think a lot of people are upset about the trend of more main stream people "taking" over forums and recreating norms and kind of flipped out on me.
it hurt my feelings deeply and betrayed my trust with the mothering.com community as a support group for excellent mothering.
if i took some of those posts to heart, i might really fall apart during an obvious scary part of my mothering journey.
if anyone would bother to read my other posts, i think it would be clear how much support, love, advice, and thoughtful discussion i have shared with this community this year (my first year of mothering)
i had no idea i would strike such a nerve
i would be upset if someone wrote about how they loved to watch their babies cry it out night after night for hours so they could finally find time to be cruel to people on the internet.
i think there IS a difference in what i did and cio as a nightly ritual.

i just wanted to share one 10 minute instance of me needing to do something else because i had tried everything (everything any of the helpful posters bothered to post as advice to a mother in need of support!) and nothing was working
i should have added that both my dd and i where getting over a very nasty flu/virus (more me than her, because she is still BF she did not really get more than a runny nose) but we are POOR and i have no health insurance and each day i was watching myself get sicker and sicker.
i feel so attacked on a moral and spiritual level.
i never dreamed my post would result in that
or i never would have posted
i could go on to give details about that situation that might help people who LOVE to freak out a better understanding:
like she cries in the carseat till she pukes sometimes (and so does her cousin and so did i as a child.....)
also the crying till puking thing is a direct result of her being so tired that she can not control her body anymore, she was making herself ill.
that she had colic for 3 straight months and i lived out in the country and never saw my husband during waking hours (not exaggerating) and i never put her down, ever, to cry. i probably did not wash my hair that entire time....
that i broke my toes when she was 6 months old and crawled to the bathroom while holding her so she would not cry.
that she loves routines and freaks out if she gets out of them and i have to help her get back to them or she spins out of control.
that i think it is important to show a child boundaries, that she was looking to me for boundaries
that sometimes my child needs me to totally remove my energy from hers in order for her to get a grip
that she has been on a great self designed and imposed sleep schedule for most of her life
that i was in the room with her during that 10 minutes, just lying down on the couch out of view. saying, "it is ok laina, momma is here, i love you, just go to sleep, it is okay we just really need to go to sleep."
that i am so AP that i have only been away from her once in her whole life (for 2 hours and she was with my mom when my mom came in town for a visit) other than that, she is very rarely in a different room than me....when she was a new born baby i had so little help that entire weeks would go by that she was not even touched by another person besides me, much less held.
that i have had an intense mothering journey thus far and have had less physical help than a lot of single moms i know
that i was not gently disciplined (i was very abused physically and emotionally) and left to cry it out every night for years
that this is all new to me (even the definitions of terms such as CIO and AP) and i
AM DOING THE BEST I CAN
and some of those posters should be ASHAMED of themselves
and i feel way sorrier for the children of those mothers who would be so cruel to strangers in need than i do for my well loved well cared for daughter.
please allow me to post a reply.
thank you for your input and concern,
moma justice
ps i am sorry if i do not sound more regretful about my choice that night at 5 AM to let her cry in the play pen, but i feel so attacked i can not begin to describe my feelings of injustice and disgust.
pps i cried the entire time she did and felt like i could not breath i was so heartbroken and confused.
ALSO: i am not, never was, trying to say that everyone should start letting their babes CIO. i wanted to tell what i had done and get some advice and support incase it happened again and so i could grow as a mother from the experience.
ALSO:
i was not sure if she was trying to communicate to me that she was ready to put her own self to sleep or even sleep byherself
i was trying it out.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

Moma justice,
You sound quite upset and flustered.





















I read your original posts. I thought you sounded desperate and I am glad you came to Mothering open to other alternatives. The mamas here at MDC are very protective of all little people and so when someone says they tried CIO (or spanking, or circing, or formula, or whatever) most of the mamas will get a bit upset. That's the nature of MDC. There is no other group of moms on the internet who are more passionate about loving parenting than the mamas at MDC. You sound like a loving mama who was getting tired and desperate. I have been there too. Even tried CIO with my first child. But it didn't work well enough for me to try it out with my second. I hope that you will keep coming to MDC and learning as much as you can about gentle parenting. Judging from you sig, you sound like you truly want to do what's right for your baby.

I HIGHLY recommend reading "The No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. It works for cosleepers, non-cosleepers, infants, babies, toddlers, breastfeeders, and bottlefeeders. You might be able to identify what's going on in your baby's head that makes her not want to sleep. It's an excellent book. Read it and read it over again. Memorize it. Try out it's tips and if they don't work, you wait a week and try them again. It has very flexible solutions for helping your baby _want_ to sleep.

I don't support CIO. But I do want you to know that you can keep coming here and getting good, sound parenting advice. I'm sorry you were so offended. But like I said, MDC mamas are very passionate. When asked for advice, we will generally give the most loving solution to any problem.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

deleted


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted for the sake of community


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleted


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

i'm so sorry you are so worn out. you can pm me if you need to talk without judgement--at least without too much judgement.









you were trying to cope. i have been there. when i have been there, i have acknowledged to myself that i am clearly NOT doing my best. my best is long gone. i am just trying to survive. and i will pull myself together as soon as i can. i can't always be at my best 24/7. i wish i could. i try. i struggle. sometimes i fail. and then i try harder.

i sometimes do cio. not much. it breaks my heart. yeah--that is my gut talking. i don't try to justify it. i don't think it is the desirable way to go. but i have done it. i don't recommend it. those who never do it have some sort of strength or calm within them that i don't always have. sometimes i have it. that's when i'm at my best.

no one loves your baby more than you. you have been there since the beginning. you know her moves. her smell. her expressions. every hair on her head. every freckle on her face. her likes. her dislikes. you are her mama. trust yourself.


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleted


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

s to everyone.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleted


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleted


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

What the heck?


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Peace mamas.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)




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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleted


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

deleting


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

deleted..

except to say I hope things get better for the op.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

moss's mommy, you need ot clear out your PM's


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

How The Heck Do You Delete


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

at the bottom of the PM page, you will find a pull down list rightbeside the GO in green button. pull down the list and it will say delete, then you checkmark the ones you want deleted.


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## Moss's Mommy (Mar 28, 2002)

ok...cleared


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

good night good mommas . everyone is included in that btw!


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

Amy


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Wow, the most deleted posts I've seen in one thread!

Hope all was worked out...


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i hope it never happens again
i learn from day every parenting how to do the next one better
and i did not want to justify what i did as much as i wanted to explain where i was coming from
and to express that the way i was treated by some members of this comminty was out of line and out of compliance with the user agreement
cynthia pmed me to make sure that i was not a "troll", trying to start some riot as some memebers acused me of over and over in their idea of a "useful" response to a sleepless mother


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

ps
i want to add that i have gotten more pm's than i could count that have been kind, supportive, HELPFUL, and understanding
those poepl have also mentioned that they only felt safe anough to pm me about this because, as one mother put it,
"i saw how mean they were to you, and i just can't handle the attacks."
so if you are trying to "weed out" all people who you feel are unworthy of mothering.com discussion, then keep it up..it is working.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Hi, I read your original post and I read this thread. I have to say that you do sound like you're looking for approval of what you did, and I hope you won't get that here.

On the other hand, it's a bit like the anger threads. Some mom's have been there, and understand even though they didn't feel good when it was them and don't approve of whatever happened.

With my first we tried CIO a few nights before I found AP. I felt bad and knew I should never have done it because with him there was always something I could do to solve the problem.

With my second I never properly did CIO but he was such a difficult baby and we got so little sleep, there were a few nights around 6 months when I couldn't settle him during the night. We were co-sleeping, my husband was in the other room with my older son, my younger was crying standing up, crying lying down, crying sitting, crying nursing.... and I got out the travel crib and put him in it in the other room. I left him to cry and I was so tired I fell asleep while he was crying.

He's 4 now and it's still not something I feel good about. But at the time it was all I could manage. To be honest, the alternative was probably shaking him. We can't all manage to be our ideal all the time.

I think if you had had different resources you could have found something else to do that had the same effect on your daughter. We are allowed to set limits for them which they don't like, but there is usually a way to do it that is still "attached".

I think if you had worded your posts less as though you were seeking approval and more like you were looking for alternatives for the future, you would have got a different kind of response.

I hope things stay positive for you,


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I'm really sorry you feel attacked and I personally want to apologize if I've made you feel badly in any way







I am quite confused by your posts though. In the first one you were saying how CIO SOOOO worked for you and seemed to be looking for approval & support for it. now you are still justifying it with even more excuses and your daughter puking? I'm sorry you were sick and have no help,etc.. I really am and I feel for you. but I just don't get it at all. how does a baby WANT you to set boundries? I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, I am just trying to understand. I've been sleep deprived, recovering from surgery, sick with pancreatitits, working on relactating and puking my brains out all at the same time and still managed to NOT let my ds CIO _EVER_ so I know it can be done. If you really are at a breaking point I suggest you get some help now! I am REALLY really am sorry you resorted to CIO and that you still seem to think it's ok. I hope next time you can come here and find the support you need.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
ps
i want to add that i have gotten more pm's than i could count that have been kind, supportive, HELPFUL, and understanding
those poepl have also mentioned that they only felt safe anough to pm me about this because, as one mother put it,
"i saw how mean they were to you, and i just can't handle the attacks."
so if you are trying to "weed out" all people who you feel are unworthy of mothering.com discussion, then keep it up..it is working.


I'm not sure how you stating all this is any better than the people who were being *mean*.

Glad PM's are working for ya, they are useful, eh? Sorry (well not really), CIO is not an accepted form of childrearing here at MDC. I'm sure there are lots of places you can go to find CIO support.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

I've been following your posts about CIO and am curious- you say that you tried *everything* before doing CIO. What exactly did you try? If you could explain in detail it would be helpful. Can't suggest other things if I don't know what you've already tried. As a single mom I KNOW how hard it can be. Been there, done that. But I refuse to let DS CIO. There is always an alternative.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I am also confused by the different points of view in some of your posts. It was not at all clear to MANY people in your first post that the CIO was a one time, emergency situation which you deeply regretted and never wanted to repeat. There is no getting away from the fact that not one or several, but many people thought you were saying CIO was a viable option during a difficult night.

I am further confused by you asking if "CIO is ever a viable option". It seems to only validate the concern in many posts you do not in fact regret what happened, and are truly looking for people to say it was alright.

If you want understanding, I do understand feeling desperate. My son slept so badly, at one point, I seriously thought of posting neon signs on the ceiling I'd see upon waking in the night that said 'STAY CALM. YOU CAN HANDLE THIS. ONE DAY YOU WILL GET SLEEP. DO NOT PANIC' because he kept me up all night every night for over year.

Many people feel desperate with sleepless babies. I just think there is a tone of defensiveness in all of your posts, that makes it hard to believe you want to do things differently next time.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Here's the thing, MJ, you will find if you manage to stick around here that there are some mamas who will look between the lines and see your heartache and exhaustion and try to point you in a better direction. They will see that you are human and make mistakes, that you sometimes do not express yourself as well as you could and are not clear. They will forgive you and try to help you be as good a mother as you possibly can be.

There are others whose ideas of what constitutes 'good' parenting are so rigid and black/white that there is no allowance for human failure, no ability to look at all the other GOOD choices you have clearly made. It is obvious that you are not interested in continuing with CIO as a general parenting tool. And, that you happened into the community not being entirely clear what it is all about







. I suggest you ignore them and move on, and hopefully enjoy and glean much from us here at mothering







.


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## mommystinch (May 18, 2004)

I do believe that all parents do things that they regret, or want to avoid redoing. However, your orignal post was about how it worked, not how you regreted doing it. I was most bothered by using the crib as a threat to make your child do what you want. I think that since you can't go back in time and take that first night of CIO away, you should at least focus on other ways to handle sleepless nights instead of threatening your child with what must be a very painful, scary memory. You say in this post that your child has only ever been away from you for two hours, so it must of been that much scarier when she was laying there screaming and crying and puking for you, and you didn't pick her up and comfort her. You can't always make a kid sleep. Perhaps you can try putting your mattress on the floor, and letting her play on the mattress and floor if she wakes. That way, you can still get rest. As for you being sick, and not having insurance, check out medicaid. You may be able to qualify. There are also quite a few clinics you can go to that require very little, if any, payment. No one said you were a bad parent. I'm sure you do lots of good things for your child. However, you can't attack us moms that felt very angry when reading your post. The title said how it soooo worked for you, and you continued to use it as a threat. I'm glad to hear that you didn't mean your post how it sounded.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I must first say that I am glad you believe you practice AP type of parenting, but in this situation you made yourself sound happy about the very bad anti-AP choice you made, even went as far as to let her puke again the next night as she pleaded with you.

Then you state "i did not mean to imply that i was going to continue to work that as a solution."

Yes you did because you then threatened her with the crib/play pen again when she wakes up at night. I do not doubt your love for your daughter- I do however doubt your ability to handle the situation.

"i think a lot of people are upset about the trend of more main stream people "taking" over the forums and recreating norms and kind of flipped out on me."

If you mean me as one of the ones that "freaked out" First- I never post anything I don't mean, period! And as far as mainstream, CIO is a mainstream practice, and if you come to an AP/NFL board and post "we cried it out and it so worked, tell me what you think" Then you go crying about me/us telling you what we think- PLEASE, if you can post such unbelievable things then you should be able to take the heat. I am not here to make you feel nice and rosy about letting your baby cry until she puked, I am her to tell you that you were wrong- and to get a grip, if you practice AP then practice it! I have little help also, I have an 18 month old and I have preggo hormones up the butt, but I would never ever EVER let Rainey cry so hard that she puked because of an action that I applied.

"i feel so attached on a moral and spiritual level."

Well I see nothing good on a moral or spiritual level letting you baby CIO- ever!

"also the crying till puking thing is a direct result of her being so tired that she can not control her boy anymore, she was making herself ill."

Perhaps it is just me, but did you not say both times the puking happened was when the crib was presented? When she was put into the crib, sorry but my DD has never puked when she has gone to bed, no matter how tired she is.

"i think it is important to show a child boundaries, that she was looking to me for boundaries that sometimes my child needs me to totally remove my energy from her s in order for her to get a grip."

Is this what you call "getting a grip?" I am confused, how did this situation teach her boundaries? How did it give her a stronger relationship with you, make her secure and confident in your unconditional love? Maybe you were the one needing a grip, maybe you should have let her play with some dolls and went in the other room and took a time out- it is not her fault and you are justifying it like it was.

"I AM DOING THE BEST I CAN and some of those posters should be ASHAMED of themselves"
I don't doubt you are trying to do the best you can, and everyone makes mistakes and makes bad choices it is part of growing as an AP parent, but once again, you can not come to a AP/NFL board and boast about how wonderful you feel now that you got sleep after letting your DD CIO and not expect to get bashed. I mean, come on... I am not ashamed of a thing I said and I am never ashamed to tell a mama when I feel she has stepped out of line- I am not perfect, I don't expect anyone else to be, however, again, don't ask for our advice then cry about it when you feel attached.

"pps i cried the entire time she did and felt like i could not breath i was so heartbroken and confused."

That was your strong AP instincts coming in, you need to listen to them, even when tired. I can not stress this enough to all mamas and new mamas, this is the reason we are able to raise well adjusted kids and others are shooting up schools.

I hope you have grown as a mother in this experience, and I do see from your signature you are very aware of the practices of AP. I hope that when you post again for advice you understand you will get our own personal advice even if it is not what you always want to hear.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

"pps i cried the entire time she did and felt like i could not breath i was so heartbroken and confused."

That was your strong AP instincts coming in, you need to listen to them, even when tired. I can not stress this enough to all mamas and new mamas, this is the reason we are able to raise well adjusted kids and others are shooting up schools.
EXACTLY


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

It did seem there was a sense of "Wow, this is so wonderful that it worked so well!" to the OP, side by side with "I'm not sure I feel right about this and maybe I'm horrified."

A sense of relief and peace and satisfaction.

A sense of shock and dismay and pain.

We pretty much agree at MDC that you should consider your uncertainty and sense of the hurtfulness of what you chose to be the side of this to consider to be "right." The final feel-good result of sleep is not the best test of whether you did the right thing.

I hope this conversation can be put to rest. The OP must now trust herself to move forward and these threads have only been partly helpful--also partly harmful to her. I think I see a lot of understanding mixed with our general disapproval. I hope she does too.


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## ldsapmom (Apr 8, 2002)

I don't know -- I did not read what everyone else read when I saw OP's original post. I did not think she was being smug or satisified -- I read it as a mom who, at the end of her rope, did something she thought she would never do, and she was looking for a sense of that "hey, we all make mistakes" kind of support.

If anything, she was made to feel worse, and for the next one who considers posting something which may not fully align with our AP-beliefs, well, I hope they reconsider posting here unless they have their flame-suits on. BTW, where can I find our AP rules written in their entirety?

I am sorry for being snarky, and that's all I can say.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I just mean "satisfied" about finally sleeping. That _seemed_ to be present in the "It worked!" aspect of her response to the experience.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't think anyone ever said she was being "smug". I do think she was starting to see CIO as a viable option for getting her daughter to sleep. She was telling us it worked. She was happy abbout that, but also confused because it went against her AP instincts.

This is a textbook example of how just because something "works" does not mean it's the right thing to do. Also just because something produces the desired effect in the short term does not mean it is without long term negative effects.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Okay. A lot of deleted posts here, and I'm sure this thread is going to be shut down too..
But, I have to pipe in.
Your OP on the other thread, the title was "We tried CIO, tell me what you think".
Well, we told you what we think.
And, furthermore, you only stated a few things you tried, then someone came up and gave two more suggestions, you did not respond to, and now are stating that you had tried EVERYTHING that was suggested.
I'm glad you practice AP in other areas, but in this regard, you didn't.
And, you never answered our questions about your dh. He can miss a class or two, and help his desperate wife. Otherwise, why have a dh?


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Hmm...I copied the original title:

Quote:

we cried it out and it so worked, tell me what you think...


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

_I have deleted some inappropriate posts from this thread, and any others which were in response to them. Please refrain from posting in a rude, harrassing, or otherwise inappropriate manner._


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

.....


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)




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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I had to delete more inappropriate posts from this thread, and am now closing this discussion.

http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread.


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