# Infant Seat Test Flaws Article



## ElleTwo (Mar 2, 2009)

I ran across this article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...1.story?page=1

Makes me think that any seat I purchase from now on will be a convertible. Just another reason not to use a bucket seat.


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## GISDiva (Jul 13, 2007)

My take on the article was more that we need better testing on any seat, not just buckets.


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## ElleTwo (Mar 2, 2009)

Completely agree on the point that all seats need as much testing as they can reasonably be given.

What the article does cement for me is my negative opinion on buckets in general. My observation is that a pretty large portion of bucket users are complacent on safety. Perching them on shopping carts for example...

While we all understand that parenting a young infant is a challenge, I think the manufacturers/marketers have been irresponsible in positioning the buckets in such a way that some parents utilize them as an almost 24/7 infant containment device rather than as "just a car seat".


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Well as my 7 mo old takes her afternoon nap in her bucket seat....I checked out the story only to discover that the soft Baby Einstein blocks she was chewing on this weekend have unsafe levels of lead....crud. I wouldn't be surprised if DS train table downstairs was covered in lead paint. Wish we had the $$$ to replace everything b/c that's really what I feel like doing right now.

And, as far as taking babies out and about....bucket seats are so convenient and that's why people use them. There are a lot of people who for various reasons have no desire to wear babe in a sling.


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## snowgirl (Aug 2, 2007)

Yikes! Seeing that infant car seat coming off the base is pretty scary. I just put ds in a Marathon yesterday. Bye, bye bucket!


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## Giraffe (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm a bucket user & actually have the Graco SafeSeat. It works well with our vehicle since it is a 2door SUV with only 2 seats in the back with 2 carseats. I can take the bucket out of the base, sit it on the floor & put babe in a sling. Once in a while I let him nap a few more minutes if he fell asleep on the way home from an errand. It is never put on top of a cart (once in a while it goes in the basket, but rarely).

So much info is missing to make any informed decisions. There's no way to know that the seats were installed right or snapped into the base correctly. Did they use the same seat repeatedly? You're supposed to replace a seat after ANY crash so if the seat was used in testing more than once, then the info is invalid. The test were done to see how the CARS perfomed & not the child seats. Again, too much left out to make any kind of informed decision.

Most convertibles also aren't made with low enough slots to fit newborns well. That is a huge problem. There are MANY seats my boys would not have fit until anywhere from 3-8 months old. (One is giant & the other a peanut.) I think there are only 3 or 4 that fit most newborns well, but definitely not all.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm looking to get a 3-in-1 right now.
Strangely, yesterday I found myself at the store-that-shouldn't-be-named staring at the carseats. Knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be buying one, um today. DD2 is in DD1's old bucket and I hate it and am afraid of it. We don't go anywhere very often and I'm paranoid the entire time about the stupid bucket (it flips up like one in the video, bc of the way you strap it)...
I've often thought the babe would be better off in a sling tied to me with me strapped than in that stupid bucket (not that I would, but that it seemed safer, yk?)

So, I'm sending DH to the Wal-Mart tonight (drat, I said it!) to get one of the seats. I'm looking at this one: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10759862 Thoughts? DD2 is about 14lbs and 4months old, so I only want to buy her ONE seat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

3 in 1s are almost never a good idea.

Buckets are fine. The key IMO is using a reliable brand.

-Angela


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

FWIW...if you have a Big Lots around....I've seen the same seat, different color, for $70 cheaper.


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## bremen (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
So, I'm sending DH to the Wal-Mart tonight (drat, I said it!) to get one of the seats. I'm looking at this one: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10759862 Thoughts? DD2 is about 14lbs and 4months old, so I only want to buy her ONE seat.

that carseat won't be the last you will need. a radian is only $20 more and could last you a few more years. it has higher harness slots, a taller shell, and is a more narrow seat, making it easier for others to sit next to her, or install anotehr carseat.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=8135734


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

So dsiappointed. I really like the concept of the Safeseat..not that I am having another child anytime soon, but I tell friends who are looking for a good seat.









About the 3 in 1 seat. Its not a favorite. THe shell and harness hieghts on the seats are not as high as other convertibles in the same class. For example the True Fit or Radian. I realize niether of these seats can be purchased IRL at Wal-mart so that might make the decision difficult

Next, the Booster mode on these seats are Known for not being a good booster.

Personally, I would skip the 3 in 1 seat and get a Big convertiable in teh same Price Clase, even the Evenflo Triumph would give you more growing room than the 3 in 1

HTH.
Denise


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
I'm looking to get a 3-in-1 right now.
Strangely, yesterday I found myself at the store-that-shouldn't-be-named staring at the carseats. Knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be buying one, um today. DD2 is in DD1's old bucket and I hate it and am afraid of it. We don't go anywhere very often and I'm paranoid the entire time about the stupid bucket (it flips up like one in the video, bc of the way you strap it)...
I've often thought the babe would be better off in a sling tied to me with me strapped than in that stupid bucket (not that I would, but that it seemed safer, yk?)

So, I'm sending DH to the Wal-Mart tonight (drat, I said it!) to get one of the seats. I'm looking at this one: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10759862 Thoughts? DD2 is about 14lbs and 4months old, so I only want to buy her ONE seat.


I got that one at Big Lots for $90. I figure by the time she is big enough to need a booster seat, I will buy her something like the Nautilus, b/c we'll hopefully have another baby by then who will use the AO.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

I came back to post that this seat would definitely not be the last one you need....but, somebody already beat me to the punch!! I just finished our search for a seat for DS and was trying to get him back to RF. I swear I put him in every convertible seat in town and really nothing (even the few Britax models in town) was going to last him much longer than his CrappySport. I've ordered a Nautilus. $143 on Amazon.


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## A Mom's Love (Sep 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
3 in 1s are almost never a good idea.

Buckets are fine. The key IMO is using a reliable brand.

-Angela

Why is it that 3 in 1s are almost never a good idea? What about the Britax Marathon? Does anyone use that with an infant? Or the Sunshine Kids Radian65? It seems to me that avoiding buckets with bases would be safer.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Mom's Love* 
Why is it that 3 in 1s are almost never a good idea? What about the Britax Marathon? Does anyone use that with an infant? Or the Sunshine Kids Radian65? It seems to me that avoiding buckets with bases would be safer.

A lot of newborns won't fit into a 3-in-1 properly. DD went home at 5 lbs 4 ounces (she was pre-term). The smallest slots on her Marathon were comically high on her until she was closer to 9 months. Honestly. I can't even begin to imagine how they think it's safe to put a newborn in one. Plus the rubber strap covers over her chest would automatically make it not fit a tiny baby, since their torsos are shorter than the strap covers. Here's a photo (those are the lowest shoulder slots) of a newborn in a Marathon: http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...6778505&prev=1

I find that article and the videos really concerning. I think it's disgraceful that the safety test for carseats (the bench slide test) is so inadequate. How do we know what is safe and what isn't when there isn't any good testing of various seats or any safety rating for them?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
I'm looking to get a 3-in-1 right now.
Strangely, yesterday I found myself at the store-that-shouldn't-be-named staring at the carseats. Knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be buying one, um today. DD2 is in DD1's old bucket and I hate it and am afraid of it. We don't go anywhere very often and I'm paranoid the entire time about the stupid bucket (it flips up like one in the video, bc of the way you strap it)...
I've often thought the babe would be better off in a sling tied to me with me strapped than in that stupid bucket (not that I would, but that it seemed safer, yk?)

So, I'm sending DH to the Wal-Mart tonight (drat, I said it!) to get one of the seats. I'm looking at this one: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10759862 Thoughts? DD2 is about 14lbs and 4months old, so I only want to buy her ONE seat.

If you want a car seat that will truly last you to booster age, get a true fit. It's probably the best one that will fit newborns and 5-6 year olds. The radian is good too, but I like the padding better in the true fit and it has less installation issues.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

So, too small for a tiny baby is the main reason for no 3-in-1? or is it bc they are too small for the larger kids in the weight class? Or, what the heck am I missing here? I suppose I can order online, it's not like she hasn't been riding in this bucket for almost 3 months. It just kills me now _knowing_ how bad it really is.

Why is the only sticky about ease of installation and use? No matter what, a carseat is a pain to install, so who gives a hoot on that. Where are the safety raitings? Oh, wait, that would be too much to ask for this country.







:


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

3 in 1s are all outgrown in harness mode far before a child is ready to be in a booster. Then they're rotten as boosters.

MUCH better to get something like a truefit.

-Angela


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElleTwo* 
My observation is that a pretty large portion of bucket users are complacent on safety.

Honestly, that is truly an offensive statement to make. There are many moms here that use infant seats as they are the best fit for a large number of infants.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Here is the link to the Safe Kids response to the article.

An excerpts reads:

_An article in the March 1, 2009 edition of the Chicago Tribune suggested that unpublicized government crash tests from 2008 may have revealed "flaws" in car seats. While the details of the tests are still unclear, one thing remains undisputed: car seats save children's lives every day. It is critical that parents and caregivers continue to use car seats for their children._
_
Correctly used car seats and booster seats are extremely effective, reducing the risk of death in a crash by as much as 71 percent. And the number of children killed in crashes over the past 30 years has dropped significantly, mostly due to the widespread use of car seats and enhanced child passenger safety laws.

Safe Kids USA always puts children and their safety first. Despite the report in the Tribune, the car seats on the market today are still the best, proven way to protect children in the event of a crash. Parents should continue to buckle their children in the right car seat or booster seat on every ride.

Safe Kids believes that more testing for car seats and vehicles can only continue to advance the child passenger safety field and improve the level of protection we can offer children when they ride. The more we know about car seats and how they react in crashes, the better equipped we will be to push for new technology and improvements that will keep children safer._


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElleTwo* 
What the article does cement for me is my negative opinion on buckets in general. My observation is that a pretty large portion of bucket users are complacent on safety.

We bought a SafeSeat for our youngest because I researched and it was found to be one of the safest infant seats (at the time obviously). My babies do not fit into convertable carseats at birth and I have read again and again that infant seats are safest for newborns.

The real issue is why aren't carseats tested better for safety before being put on the market?


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
3 in 1s are almost never a good idea.

Buckets are fine. The key IMO is using a reliable brand.

-Angela

The scary thing about that article is that reliable brands, for example the Britax Companion, failed terribly.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

And here I bought the 200.00 companion because I thought I was being safe. Not complacent. He's in a marathon now, I move him as soon as he fits well in one. I'd been saving my companion for my next babies I want, what should I do with it?


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## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Watching the video on the companion made me ill. I am so glad that she is out of that seat. That being said, we are currently using the bottom slots on her Marathon, so there is no way my little 18 inches at birth DD would have fit in it as an infant.


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## ElleTwo (Mar 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Honestly, that is truly an offensive statement to make. There are many moms here that use infant seats as they are the best fit for a large number of infants.

That sentence, taken out of the context of the surrounding words, might be provocative..It's followed by an example of parents putting the seats on shopping carts to give clarification. And please notice that I end the post by putting what fault there is on the manufacturers/marketers, not on parents, for not making people more aware of safety issues like unsecured buckets falling off shopping carts, and infants who have breathing problems when they are left in an unsuitable position in the bucket for long periods of time.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

This part of the article attracted my attention:

Quote:

The Tribune found that many infant restraints strapped into the back seats of vehicles with five-star safety ratings - the highest possible - performed poorly.

*Auto ratings aren't even negatively affected when a vehicle's back seat breaks apart in a head-on collision.*

Yet a problem with the back seat can have a dramatic effect on child safety restraints. Photos from NHTSA's testing show that *the back seat of the model-2008 Infiniti EX35 hatchback moved so much during its frontal crash test that the bottom and top seat cushions separated.* Both the Combi Connection and the Graco SnugRide in that test exceeded limits for head and chest injuries in that crash.

The strap that fastens between the baby's legs on the Combi Connection ripped out of the infant carrier, a structural failure that didn't happen in a subsequent crash test in a Saturn Vue SUV where the back seat remained intact. The Infiniti has a four-star frontal crash rating.
Sounds like we need better cars before we can start talking about better carseats. A carseat can only take so much stress, it's not meant to absorb a complete crash, like what apparently happened in this test.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I really think the big thing this exposed is NOT that the car seats are unsafe. They comply to their standards. It's that the testing process does not allow for things like the back seat seperating. Car seats are crash tested on sleds, bench seats. There are no 'real life factors'. And realistically, how do you do that? You couldn't ever test every combination of car seats and vehicles, plus positions in the vehicle and improper use scenerios that we see every day.

Also, it's VERY important to realize that a 35 mph test into a concrete barrier EXCEEDS the impact forces of 95% of real life collisions.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It's an interesting article. It underlines what I've been saying for years- we need to test seats in CARS, not sleds.

I think that standards need to be much higher but I think people will scream bloody murder when they see prices for seats to meet higher standards.

This is a good example of why I analyze extra safety features in choosing seats instead of assuming the tired line that all seats are equally safe.

I don't think buckets are any worse than other seats- I just think they were what was tested here.

-Angela


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## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

Wow. Scary stuff. That Safe Kids response is accurate but lends a dismissive feeling. I see they're trying to make sure parents continue to use the seats and don't stop, claiming, "they're not safe anyway." But to those of us who are in the highly concerned category, it's neither here nor there whether they are the safest seats on the market. The safest seats are still not safe enough.

We just bought a KeyFit 30. Thankfully it seemed to be the safest of the bunch...though it still worries me. And Britax??? Shame on them!


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Past_VNE* 
Wow. Scary stuff. That Safe Kids response is accurate but lends a dismissive feeling.

And Britax??? Shame on them!

I think Safe Kids has to lend a calming voice. It will do no good to have parents panicking that their seats are unsafe. Like Angela said, it's just that these seats were tested. We could all ditch infant carriers and run out for convertibles, but we haven't seen those results in these situations. Safe Kids has a responsibility to say, slow down, take a step back. Get your seats checked by a CPST and by all means USE them. Non-use is a HUGE issue, more than most parents not involved in the CPS world probably realize. In most areas, around 50% of fatalities in vehicles are unrestrained children. Studies like this and the Freakanomics guy, get people arguing with us that no car seat is safe. Which is the last thing we need to have happen.

Testing at 35 MPH, in vehicles where the entire back seats are failing is not even remotely standard practice. I work with people who work at the crash test facilities, and Britax is one the companies that comes back again and again, to get it right. They voluntarily recall their own products. Britax is one of the good guys in this, they have gone far and above to try to get it right.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It's not something that we know much about yet. It's really important to remember that this testing is more severe than 95% of crashes. I think that we all have to step back and see what comes of it, and in the mean time, be sure we are correctly using our seats every time.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soxthecatrules* 
I came back to post that this seat would definitely not be the last one you need....but, somebody already beat me to the punch!! I just finished our search for a seat for DS and was trying to get him back to RF. I swear I put him in every convertible seat in town and really nothing (even the few Britax models in town) was going to last him much longer than his CrappySport. I've ordered a Nautilus. $143 on Amazon.

Did you get a chance to try a TrueFit? I think it'd RF longer than a Marathon by a good bit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
So, too small for a tiny baby is the main reason for no 3-in-1? or is it bc they are too small for the larger kids in the weight class? Or, what the heck am I missing here? :

There's a few things you want to see in a convertible carseat:

* Low bottom slot for newborns (not significant if your baby is older)
* High weight limit for rear-facing (35 lbs. is as high as they go right now in the US)
* High *height* limit for rear-facing (this is determined by the shell height; the child's head has to be at least 1" below the top of the shell when RFing)
* High top slot for front-facing (child's shoulder has to be BELOW the slot when FFing, unlike RFing where the shoulder should be ABOVE the slot)
* High shell for front-facing (child's ears should not be above the top of the shell)
* High enough weight limit (the highest out there is 80 lbs., but most kids outgrow by height well before weight)

Ideally, you want your convertible to keep a child RFing until at LEAST two, but the older the better, and harnessed front-facing until booster-ready, which would be at LEAST age five for most kids (it's more a maturity thing than a size thing, though size is a factor too; most kids reach the minimum size well before they can handle using a seatbelt properly, though).

The 3-in-1s don't generally meet those standards. Additionally, they don't position the seat belt well in booster mode, and there's often a gap between when the child has outgrown the seat forward-facing with harness, and meets the seat's requirements for booster use.

These days, I'd recommend a TrueFit, and then either a combination seat (Graco Nautilus or Britax Frontier) or a dedicated booster, depending on the child's age when they outgrow the TrueFit. If you're pretty sure you'll be getting a combination seat anyway, then the Marathon or Boulevard are great seats, too.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

The new 3-in-1 seats like the one linked to earlier actually have taller top slots than the Marathon, and are much cheaper. They are great RF'ing seats, and now will last you a long time FF'ing as well. Just don't expect to use it as a booster.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey Ironica...

A TrueFit was one of my choices, but, we had no opportunity to "test" it IRL. When your only choices in town to get carseats are Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Sears, and BigLots you don't have much to pick from outside of Graco and Dorel seats. Target has the best range in town and now are the only ones who carry Britax. Sears used to have Britax but they cleared them out a year or so ago. Image Marathons for $75!!! I do not lie and I do not exaggerate on this one!! A friend of ours bought one. Target and Wal-Mart do carry some First Years models but nothing with a harness. I wasn't brave enough to purchase a TrueFit sight unseen.


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## A Mom's Love (Sep 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
The real issue is why aren't carseats tested better for safety before being put on the market?

I would agree that better testing needs to occur. In the meantime, this article had me question the safety of the infant buckets in general, but apparently avoiding them isn't the safest thing to do either unless you have a larger baby. That's a shame the seats that are supposed to work for babies & toddlers, like the Britax Marathon, can't reasonably accommodate both.


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## Giraffe (Feb 13, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
The new 3-in-1 seats like the one linked to earlier actually have taller top slots than the Marathon, and are much cheaper. They are great RF'ing seats, and now will last you a long time FF'ing as well. Just don't expect to use it as a booster.

That's true. The 50lb version is improved from the 40lb version. The one that goes to 50lbs has approx 17" top slots & a 50lb limit. Most kids outgrow seats by height before weight. I had the older version & liked it, but I have a 2yr old that is all torso & outgrew it completely. He'd still fit the new version though. I agree that it doesn't make a great booster. (Don't worry, kiddo moved to a Regent & won't be in a booster for a long time.







)


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## mamapixie (May 30, 2002)

I just wanted to add that I've used a Radian 65 with my youngest since birth, and I've loved it the whole time, and am glad that he will fit in it until he's 5-6(my 6yo could still fit in it), and I'd recommend that seat over any other convertible that converts to a booster.

For me, the TrueFit is too big, it's a nice seat, just too big.

I am admittedly nervous about the SafeSeat information, that's my baby's seat in DH's vehicle, not in it very often admittedly, but still...


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElleTwo* 
My observation is that a pretty large portion of bucket users are complacent on safety.

Or some of us have done research and decided that buckets are the safest option for our individual babies and circumstances. My babies are preemies and will be going home smaller than the average baby. After a lot of research and asking expert opinions, I just don't think convertibles are safest in the early weeks when they're so small. Even though some are rated for 5 lbs and over, the straps are too high, or they don't recline enough and make it hard for preemies to breathe effectively.

I'm not a fan of assumptions based on the few ignorant people who do stupid things. I could say that breastfeeding moms are complacent on safety, based on the idiot who was breastfeeding her baby while driving 60 miles an hour down the highway and talking on her cell phone. It wouldn't be an accurate assumption.


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

However, I was very impressed by Combi's response to the information. They're a great company!


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## A Mom's Love (Sep 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapixie* 
I just wanted to add that I've used a Radian 65 with my youngest since birth, and I've loved it the whole time, and am glad that he will fit in it until he's 5-6(my 6yo could still fit in it), and I'd recommend that seat over any other convertible that converts to a booster.

What weight & length was your youngest at birth? Glad to know the Radian 65 works well for you!


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## mamapixie (May 30, 2002)

He was about 7lbs, and 20 inches long. I did buy the cover/padding from a Radian 80, and used the infant padding that is included with that for the first few months.


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## A Mom's Love (Sep 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapixie* 
He was about 7lbs, and 20 inches long. I did buy the cover/padding from a Radian 80, and used the infant padding that is included with that for the first few months.

Good to know! My dd weighted that much, but was 1/4" shorter.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I don't think buckets are any worse than other seats- I just think they were what was tested here.

That could be true, but I guess after looking at this article, I like the idea of a seat that doesn't have to snap into a base, the way buckets do. That's just a feeling I get. I don't know why/if it would be better, personally.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

FTR: bucket seats don't "perch" on shopping carts. They snap on.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

From the article -

"Graco, which has sold more than 600,000 SafeSeats, has received only one complaint from a consumer who said the SafeSeat separated from its base, Galambos said. The consumer, whose child suffered minor injuries, sent Graco the product. Engineers found the seat was working correctly and believe that the consumer may not have locked the seat into the base, she said."

Kind of freaks me out. People are going to think, oh, well, it was a user error, so the seat is safe... but here's the thing. We had snug rides for my girls. I know how the operate. we had one with my son so I've had 3 of them now. I don't remember it ever happening with my son but there were a few times with the girls where I'd be driving and here the "click" of the car seat settling in to the base. Which means I hadn't had it in just right... even though I "know" what I am doing and thought I had it in right. I would hear a click but it wasn't the right click I guess.

I an glad we're done with buckets for the girls. They're in Marathons... had I known how great the true fit was before I got 2 marathons I would have considered those instead (though 2 side by side might be too big)

We considered putting the girls right into convertables at birth but knew with twins the odds were against their being big enough to fit in any of them. They were both under 5 pounds at discharge. But we planned to skip out of saving money, not safety. Hadn't even thougt about the buckets not being as safe as something that stays in the car.

Maybe the buckets are just too prone to user error.

As for buckets snapping vs. perching in shopping carts - usually they snap. I have encountered a few carts where they don't.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

The way to make sure your car seat is installed into the base correctly is to try to lift it up when you put it in to make sure it doesn't come out. I believe my snugride instructions said to do this every time to ensure it was snapped into the base.


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## mamapixie (May 30, 2002)

No, the carseat companies have purposely been making their seats so that they don't snap onto carts, because it is inherently dangerous to do so. It throws off the whole center of gravity of the cart. There have been many injuries reported either the seat falls off, or the cart tips over, or even worse, baby falls out of the seat.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

my bucket seats are BRAND NEW. Well, not anymore, i guess. A 2007 and 2008 model. And they snap right into the cart. I think any seat will. It's the hook that would snap it into the base that will grab the edge of the cart's seat to snap it on. it's not just dangling there. and I will continue to put my babies there, because there's no other place to put them while grocery shopping.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
my bucket seats are BRAND NEW. Well, not anymore, i guess. A 2007 and 2008 model. And they snap right into the cart. I think any seat will. It's the hook that would snap it into the base that will grab the edge of the cart's seat to snap it on. it's not just dangling there. and I will continue to put my babies there, because there's no other place to put them while grocery shopping.

Our supermarket has carts with little "car seats" built in for small babies/ newborns. Ask your store to order some. Also a sling is good for this.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I saw a cart tip over with a newborn in a bucket seat attached to the cart's seat. I was 10 and will never foget that. I heard the baby's head slap that floor. I put DD's bucket seat in the back of the cart, lying inside and facing me. Totally not worth the chance.


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## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RunnerDuck* 
I don't remember it ever happening with my son but there were a few times with the girls where I'd be driving and here the "click" of the car seat settling in to the base. Which means I hadn't had it in just right... even though I "know" what I am doing and thought I had it in right. I would hear a click but it wasn't the right click I guess.

Are you sure it was the base clicking? That has happened to me, only it was the handle of the carseat. After I popped the seat into the base I put the handle down but apparently not all the way, and after driving I'd hear it click down so it was locked in the down position.


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## mamapixie (May 30, 2002)

Buy a sling or carrier, since I used a convertible from birth, it was the only way I could get the shopping done. And no, no infant seats made now HOOK onto the carts. They may fit onto the cart, but they do not hook onto it any longer. The old Century infant seat I used with my oldest did, but neither the Fisher Price stay in view, nor the Graco Safe Seat have any way to secure the seat to the cart.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

The brand new in 2008 Graco SnugRide that I have clicks quite well with grocery carts. I agree, that it's not the safest option, but it isn't true that newer buckets don't click in carts.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
my bucket seats are BRAND NEW. Well, not anymore, i guess. A 2007 and 2008 model. And they snap right into the cart. I think any seat will. It's the hook that would snap it into the base that will grab the edge of the cart's seat to snap it on. it's not just dangling there. and I will continue to put my babies there, because there's no other place to put them while grocery shopping.

Mine didn't snap on. I agree it's not safe.

-Angela


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapixie* 
Buy a sling or carrier, since I used a convertible from birth, it was the only way I could get the shopping done. And no, no infant seats made now HOOK onto the carts. They may fit onto the cart, but they do not hook onto it any longer. The old Century infant seat I used with my oldest did, but neither the Fisher Price stay in view, nor the Graco Safe Seat have any way to secure the seat to the cart.

I have never had a bucket seat that hooked onto the cart. My first...I don't even remember what brand it was! It was a Carter's, but I don't know which company made it. Second was a Stay in View...loved that thing, but yeah, didn't snap onto a cart. Had to get a new infant seat with this baby. My sisters bought me a Snug Ride, and it doesn't hook onto a cart. Not safely anyway. I actually tried it, realized that there was NO WAY that it looked safe, and stuck it in the main part of the cart instead. It did actually hook onto the cart, but the angle of the seat was way too severe. I didn't trust it at all.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I tried taking the bucket into a store once. If I clipped it to the top (and mine did click, this was in 2005 and it was an Eddie Bauer/Cosco bucket) I couldn't see over it, and if I put it in the main part of the cart there was no room for groceries. Plus of course DD started fussing after 2 seconds in the cart so I was holding her trying to push the cart.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

I know for a fact that our SnugRide has clipped onto a cart. I know this b/c I had to pull the red release mechanism on the backside to get it to come loose. And, I can see over it if I put the handle down.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I placed an order for the True Fit last night after checking car-seat.org to see if it fits our car (99 toyota corolla). Well, others were able to get it, so done.

Like I said earlier, I decided the day before I saw the article to replace the bucket. I wasn't so worried about it separating from the base, but about it flipping up and slamming DD into the back seat. I know it's in correctly, and it doesn't move side to side at all, but you can flip it up (base and all). Just like one (eta-THREE) of the videos showed.









I take the babe out and carry or sling her. I've seen the buckets fall out of shopping carts


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy* 
Are you sure it was the base clicking? That has happened to me, only it was the handle of the carseat. After I popped the seat into the base I put the handle down but apparently not all the way, and after driving I'd hear it click down so it was locked in the down position.

Oooh. You know that is completely possible that it was the handle. Because I'd put the seats in, hear the click, give them a shake - not really pull them out but shake them - they seemed like they were in there. Maybe it was just the handle clicking!

And again - did I say it already? - my buckets certainly did latch onto the shopping cart seats. I, too, had to squeeze the red handle to get them out. If car seat makers are making them NOT fit, I would bet grocery cart makers are making the carts to they fit the car seats, LOL

I'm *personally* not convinced it's unsafe, esp. in one of today's SUV behemouth shopping carts. One of the teeny ones like Trader Joe's or a drug store - maybe. You can't/shouldn't put a bucket on those. But most big grocery stores? They have big beefy carts on account of the fact that american's are big beefy people with big beefy appetites.

Guess we all make our own choices on this one.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
Like I said earlier, I decided the day before I saw the article to replace the bucket. I wasn't so worried about it separating from the base, but about it flipping up and slamming DD into the back seat. I know it's in correctly, and it doesn't move side to side at all, but you can flip it up (base and all). Just like one (eta-THREE) of the videos showed.









RF seats do that







they ALL do- UNLESS they tether RF or have the anti-rebound bar. Did you order the new truefit with the anti-rebound bar? Or the old one without?

-Angela


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
RF seats do that







they ALL do- UNLESS they tether RF or have the anti-rebound bar. Did you order the new truefit with the anti-rebound bar? Or the old one without?

-Angela

without- and that was stretching the bank







I believe (have'nt called the dealer yet) we can retrofit the car to tether rf


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

I believe (have'nt called the dealer yet) we can retrofit the car to tether rf
The True Fit cannot be tethered rf. AFAIK, only Britax convertibles and the SK Radians allow rf tethering. The ARB is The First Year's answer to a rf tether.

There are very few (are they actually any?) American vehicles with designated rf tether points; you're usually just looking for a point of attachment that is part of the seat in front of the car seat that is actually bolted to the vehicle frame.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kayleezoo* 
the arb is the first year's answer to a rf tether.

arb?


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

arb= anti rebound bar









the function is to prevent the cocooning of the seat into the vehicle seat back upon impact. some techs are wondering if it will provide any stability in a side-impact collision like a rf tether (which also prevents the seat from rebounding into the vehicle seat back), but most agree that the anti-rebound feature is more important.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

arb = anti rebound bar - a piece that sticks up from the foot of the seat and holds it off the seatback.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
my bucket seats are BRAND NEW. Well, not anymore, i guess. A 2007 and 2008 model. And they snap right into the cart. I think any seat will.

Nope, many seats don't.

Quote:

It's the hook that would snap it into the base that will grab the edge of the cart's seat to snap it on. it's not just dangling there. and I will continue to put my babies there, because there's no other place to put them while grocery shopping.
Umm... my baby is usually on my back while grocery shopping. When he was tiny, he was on my front.

If you look at your carseat manual, it likely tells you specifically that the seat is NOT designed to be attached to a shopping cart, and that it should not be placed on top of anything (table, cart, hood of the car, etc.) due to falling danger.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
my bucket seats are BRAND NEW. Well, not anymore, i guess. A 2007 and 2008 model. And they snap right into the cart. I think any seat will. It's the hook that would snap it into the base that will grab the edge of the cart's seat to snap it on. it's not just dangling there. and I will continue to put my babies there, because there's no other place to put them while grocery shopping.

A sling or other infant carrier. I never brought ds in the store in a bucket and I did and still do 100% of the shopping.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Now I am wondering if I should even buy a new Infant car seat. With ds we had planned to use the Marathon form birth but he was in the NICu and tehy had to do a carseat test. So we had to have an infant carseat. My cousin gave us one as she received two for gifts an they only had one car. I could not stand it it was an evenflo. The thing did not fit well in our car and he was 26 inches fast (the height limit) we ended up putting ds in the Decathalon at 10 weeks. he fit great I wish I had put him in sooner! Not sure what to do withthe next one. we were thinkinga Chicco keyfit because it fits in our car best.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapixie* 
Buy a sling or carrier, since I used a convertible from birth, it was the only way I could get the shopping done. And no, no infant seats made now HOOK onto the carts. They may fit onto the cart, but they do not hook onto it any longer. The old Century infant seat I used with my oldest did, but neither the Fisher Price stay in view, nor the Graco Safe Seat have any way to secure the seat to the cart.

The Graco Snugride we used did . . . and I know it because it was an utter and complete PAIN IN THE ASS to get unclipped when my husband tried it. The thing came out of its base easier than it unclipped from a cart.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapixie* 
No, the carseat companies have purposely been making their seats so that they don't snap onto carts, because it is inherently dangerous to do so. It throws off the whole center of gravity of the cart. There have been many injuries reported either the seat falls off, or the cart tips over, or even worse, baby falls out of the seat.

See, this claim versus some of the others just bewilders me.

Our local grocery has those carts + baby seats . . . which are a molded plastic seat which flip down over the "toddler" seat in the cart exactly in at the same height and in the same position as a clipped-in carseat would end up at. From pushing the plastic seat into place a couple of times, the seat seems to be about the same weight as your standard carseat.

All they seem to avoid is the "seat falling off" problem. If the weight there is going to throw off the center of gravity of the cart and risk over-toppling the cart, it's no different.


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## Ceili (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skybluepink02* 
However, I was very impressed by Combi's response to the information. They're a great company!









:

I'm due in August and we're shopping for a new carseat. I have a less than one year old Marathon that I'm planning on using when the new baby grows into it, but I've been looking for an infant seat to use until then. I was going to get a Britax companion, but Combi has now shot to the top of my list.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElleTwo* 
I ran across this article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...1.story?page=1

Makes me think that any seat I purchase from now on will be a convertible. Just another reason not to use a bucket seat.

Seems to me the lesson is to not use the snap in base. Every bucket seat can be belted in independently, the base is for convenience.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
See, this claim versus some of the others just bewilders me.

Our local grocery has those carts + baby seats . . . which are a molded plastic seat which flip down over the "toddler" seat in the cart exactly in at the same height and in the same position as a clipped-in carseat would end up at. From pushing the plastic seat into place a couple of times, the seat seems to be about the same weight as your standard carseat.

All they seem to avoid is the "seat falling off" problem. If the weight there is going to throw off the center of gravity of the cart and risk over-toppling the cart, it's no different.









:
If it's a cart balance problem, it would exist whether you put your seat there, or the seat was put there by the store.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
Seems to me the lesson is to not use the snap in base. Every bucket seat can be belted in independently, the base is for convenience.

Not every seat can be used without the base. Some are base only.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
Seems to me the lesson is to not use the snap in base. Every bucket seat can be belted in independently, the base is for convenience.

It is really really hard to install them without the base, and irritating, too. You have to lock the belt off, it goes over the baby's legs, yada yada yada. We did it once while travelling and it's a PITA. You have to uninstall the seat every time you take the baby out.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It's been five years since I used it but when we used a Graco bucket with our first without the base, we did not need to install and uninstall it all the time and the seatbelt did not go over the baby's legs.


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## Katzchen (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
Seems to me the lesson is to not use the snap in base. Every bucket seat can be belted in independently, the base is for convenience.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
Not every seat can be used without the base. Some are base only.









The Evenflo Embrace we had could only be used with the base.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Grocery carts and car seats are not meant to be compatible. Nor is it safe. There are a startling number of injuries from falls in infant carriers used in ways they are not intended. Here is a link to a study, it's old, I can't find the current one right now and it's bedtime, but I'll look more later... But in the year sited, there were 8700 injuries from falls associated with infant carriers used outside of the car. The ones that are on the carts are BOLTED there, so they can't fall off but even so, they are still not recomended. The AAP recomends to not use them that way _"Many infant-only car safety seats lock into shopping carts, and many stores have shopping carts with built-in infant seats. This may seem safe, but thousands of children are hurt every year from falling out of shopping carts or from the carts tipping over. Instead of placing your baby's car safety seat on the cart, consider using a stroller or front pack while shopping with your baby. "_

Some infant seats can be installed without the base, some can't and some don't even have bases. This is another "read the directions" recomendation. But you raise your error risk A LOT by installing the seat every time you use it. I can't see why you would use an infant carrier, for the convenience, and then try to just leave it installed? Too much room for error, as you (in most cases) have to slide the baby out from under the seat belt. I would think a convertible would just make more sense, in those cases.

I still don't think it is time to panic. These car seats perform well in over 95% of crashes. The odds of a seat failing are very small. Proper use, and proper installation, is still the best advice, while we see what pans out. And for parents that are still concerned about the safety of their infant carrier, a convertible is going to be the next car seat for your child anyway, just move them now.

Meanwhile, use of a convertible will negate the shopping cart debate, so you're good all the way around


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 

Some infant seats can be installed without the base, some can't and some don't even have bases. This is another "read the directions" recomendation.

Meanwhile, use of a convertible will negate the shopping cart debate, so you're good all the way around









What infant seat doesn't have a base? I'd be very interested in that for the future.

Also - small newborns really don't fit well into most convertibles. Maybe there are some that will fit one? DD certainly wouldn't have fit in her Britax as a newborn. Or for several months after...


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganone* 
Also - small newborns really don't fit well into most convertibles. Maybe there are some that will fit one? DD certainly wouldn't have fit in her Britax as a newborn. Or for several months after...

The True Fit and Radian both have padding available to fit the seat better to tiny newborns. It comes standard with the True Fit and Radian 80, and you can order it for the Radian 65. I don't know about the Radian XT.

I understand that the Scenera fits newborns fairly well, too.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
The True Fit and Radian both have padding available to fit the seat better to tiny newborns. It comes standard with the True Fit and Radian 80, and you can order it for the Radian 65. I don't know about the Radian XT.

I understand that the Scenera fits newborns fairly well, too.

Thanks - how low do the shoulder straps go? I have a good friend who's pg and is trying to figure out what carseat to get for the little one.


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## Giraffe (Feb 13, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganone* 
Thanks - how low do the shoulder straps go? I have a good friend who's pg and is trying to figure out what carseat to get for the little one.

I just read a list of stats, but can't find them. I think they are all around7-7.5" (assuming you use the infant padding with the True Fit or Radian).


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
Not every seat can be used without the base. Some are base only.

That's funny, I've bought so many over the years, and they all were. Sorry for my poor assumption.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
The True Fit and Radian both have padding available to fit the seat better to tiny newborns. It comes standard with the True Fit and Radian 80, and you can order it for the Radian 65. I don't know about the Radian XT.

I understand that the Scenera fits newborns fairly well, too.

Unfortunately, whether a seat is going to fit a newborn isn't something that can really be determined until that newborn is present, since it's really more dependent on torso height than overall height.

The hospital where I delivered does a car seat check before releasing. This is because they found many parents putting torso-small babies into inappropriate seats (if you have a newborn with a short torso, there may be no convertible in which the bottom straps are below the shoulders).

Le babe was so torso-short that the Snugride was almost inappropriate for him at release--the bottom slots where just a smidge below his shoulders.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Posting because when I click on page 5, it keeps taking me to page 4.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Posting because when I click on page 5, it keeps taking me to page 4.

All the really *good* stuff is in page 5. You're just not allowed to see it.

(I mean - that's weird... same thing happens to me)

eta - oooh! I'M on page 5! I must be the good stuff!!!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

This is weird.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
The hospital where I delivered does a car seat check before releasing. This is because they found many parents putting torso-small babies into inappropriate seats (if you have a newborn with a short torso, there may be no convertible in which the bottom straps are below the shoulders).

Le babe was so torso-short that the Snugride was almost inappropriate for him at release--the bottom slots where just a smidge below his shoulders.

With the padding, I think the True Fit bottom slots fits about like the SnugRide.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
With the padding, I think the True Fit bottom slots fits about like the SnugRide.

And now that I know what I know, I suspect that the nurse who reviewed our carseat with him in it (several of the hospital's nurses are certified carseat techs and both do these reviews and run all our local installation clinics) probably shouldn't have let us use the Snugride. We took pictures of him in it, in the hospital, and it's pretty clear he didn't actually meet the real safety requirements for the seat.

But he wasn't officially a preemie, and he was officially "over" the lower limits on the seat. (He was 5lb, 13oz at birth and they measured his length right at 18 inches . . . I don't know his release weight, and he was only measured at 17 inches at his 5 day appt.)


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
And now that I know what I know, I suspect that the nurse who reviewed our carseat with him in it (several of the hospital's nurses are certified carseat techs and both do these reviews and run all our local installation clinics) probably shouldn't have let us use the Snugride. We took pictures of him in it, in the hospital, and it's pretty clear he didn't actually meet the real safety requirements for the seat.

But he wasn't officially a preemie, and he was officially "over" the lower limits on the seat. (He was 5lb, 13oz at birth and they measured his length right at 18 inches . . . I don't know his release weight, and he was only measured at 17 inches at his 5 day appt.)

Mine were preemies and under 5 pounds at discharge. Probably shouldn't have by the books come home in the snugrides they came home in - but if the baby is too small for a bucket the alternative is stay in the hospital till they grow, or a car bed and I don't know, maybe rear facing in a seat a smidge too big is still safer than a car bed??

There are apparantly a few buckets for 4 pounds and up - I didn't know this or possibly would have gotten those instead of the snugrides, since with twins we anticipated early and small.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Why wouldn't the carbed be safe?


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
Why wouldn't the carbed be safe?

Well to be honest I don't know that it's not - that's why I said "maybe."









They say rear facing is safest for an infant. My understanding is the rear facing position can cause a baby to crash... arg, I forget the term they use, SATS?? Before they let babies out of NICU they have them sit in their bucket for a certain length of time (I think it was an hour at my hospital, maybe onlu 45 minutes) with monitors on them to make sure they are breathing, heart rate is good, blood oxygen levels are good, all that. If the baby doesn't pass the car seat test, then I thought that was when they suggested a car bed since there is no medical reason to keep the baby in the hospital, just a medical reason not to put them in a typical car seat. I just had this feeling that a car bed (side facing position) was not as ideal as rear facing, but it's a compromise so the baby can be mobile. Not that the car bed isn't safe, just rear facing is better - but what good is it to protect your kid in a crash if he's already suffocated from sitting in his car seat? It seems to me like if a baby was on the very cusp of the size requirement for a bucket, you would err on the side of putting them in a slightly too big rear facing bucket vs. putting them in a car bed - I thought the car bed was more used for medical fragililty rather than size.

But once again let me point out that I said MAYBE.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Carbeds are an absolute last resort only. They don't restrain babies as well as traditional car seats at all.


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## star thistle (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
FTR: bucket seats don't "perch" on shopping carts. They snap on.

This is not the purpose of the clips on the seat and not the intended use of the cart.

I recently saw a bucket seat "perched" on the front of a target shopping cart. The back of the seat was clearly "snapped on" but the front was hovering 2+ inches over the front bar of the cart. The only thing attaching the seat to the cart was a thin inch of flimsy plastic shopping cart and clips intended for the carseat base. It was scary to say the least.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 

But he wasn't officially a preemie, and he was officially "over" the lower limits on the seat. (He was 5lb, 13oz at birth and they measured his length right at 18 inches . . . I don't know his release weight, and he was only measured at 17 inches at his 5 day appt.)

Mine was pre-term and the exact same size as your LO. She failed the first carseat test and eeked by on the 2nd (the nurse held her feet and sang to her to try to help her not cry since they can desat if they get worked up). They let us use her Snugride. We ONLY used it for doctor's appointments for a few weeks. We stayed home otherwise.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganone* 
Mine was pre-term and the exact same size as your LO. She failed the first carseat test and eeked by on the 2nd (the nurse held her feet and sang to her to try to help her not cry since they can desat if they get worked up). They let us use her Snugride. We ONLY used it for doctor's appointments for a few weeks. We stayed home otherwise.

Doctor's appointments were about all we used it for then too.

Although, he shot up pretty quickly from there . . . even though he only measured at 17 inches at his 5 day, he was already over birth weight, and at his 2 week appt, he was 7 lbs and 20 inches.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganone* 
A lot of newborns won't fit into a 3-in-1 properly. DD went home at 5 lbs 4 ounces (she was pre-term). The smallest slots on her Marathon were comically high on her until she was closer to 9 months. Honestly. I can't even begin to imagine how they think it's safe to put a newborn in one. Plus the rubber strap covers over her chest would automatically make it not fit a tiny baby, since their torsos are shorter than the strap covers. Here's a photo (those are the lowest shoulder slots) of a newborn in a Marathon: http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...6778505&prev=1

I find that article and the videos really concerning. I think it's disgraceful that the safety test for carseats (the bench slide test) is so inadequate. How do we know what is safe and what isn't when there isn't any good testing of various seats or any safety rating for them?

The marathon isn't a 3 in 1 seat. Anyway, the marathon is rarely a good fit for a newborn, just like all of the other britax convertibles. The slots are just too high. My 4 month old is just now riding in her blvd.

Also--the HUGS can be removed for RF (the rubber pieces)


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