# Letting a toddler sleep when he wants vs. "circadian rhythms" and routine



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Here's the deal:

Dh and I have battled and cried over ds's bedtime since, well, forever.







Overall he's pretty easygoing and cheerful, but the kid just fights with all that's in him when it's time for bed. I've read NCSS and Sleepless in America and we've tried all manner of bedtime routines, bedtimes ranging from 7pm to midnight, and we've never really found a groove.

When ds was about 15 months I'd had it and I decided that I would just let him sleep when he wanted to sleep. I thought this was working rather well for a few months. He slept from about 10:30 or 11pm until about 8am. He took an extra long nap during the day (like, 3 1/2 hours), and no tears. But dh was slowly losing it. He seemed to NEED time alone with just me in the evening, and it was getting to the point where he was being really short with both of us, losing his cool a lot, and he just wasn't happy at all.

So I read Sleepless in America and it made me think that I was the worst mother in history to let ds sleep when he wanted. I wasn't helping him get the sleep he needed and I was totally screwing up his body's "natural sleep cycle." By missing that all-important window (which I never did find) I was doing my son a terrible disservice.

We started trying to institute an earlier bedtime. I started losing it again because this was so difficult. Ds was not interested in sleep that early. We would lie in bed and nurse and he would flail around and try to pick my moles off, and I ended up losing it nearly every night and yelling or throwing something. We realized that if dh took over, ds would cry in protest for about 10-15 minutes and then fall asleep. I HATED this. I HATED that ds was crying at bedtime every night, even though it meant he was asleep by 8:30 or 9. But dh was much happier, I had to admit it was nice to have evenings to ourselves, and ds was awake early enough that we could get to the park in the morning before it got hot.

We went on vacation last week and now everything's screwed up again. Last night dh tried to do the bedtime thing, and ds was inconsolable. He's been going to bed late, getting up late, napping late, and I'm starting to rethink the forced bedtime thing. It never really felt right to me. I'm wondering if "helping" ds keep a "normal" sleep cycle is really so vitally important to his well being, especially if he's so upset about it every night. Is sleeping from 11-8 and 1:30-4:30ish really bad for a 20-month-old? Is it possible that THIS is his normal sleep cycle?

I just can't see how fighting and forcing it for so long is a good thing or beneficial to anyone. What do the rest of you think?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Um, isn't it perfectly clear? I really don't mean that in a snarky way at all- I promise. Just that your child has demonstrated what WORKS for him and you're still trying to force him into something else. It clearly doesn't work. Why do you keep at it?

I'm a big believer in letting kids listen to their own bodies.

-Angela


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I've not read the sleepless in America book, so I can't comment on that. However, I agree with Alegna, in that it's obvious what YOUR child needs. Maybe MOST children fall into a 8pm-7am sleep pattern, but not ALL. My dd is exactly like your ds. We never found the groove of early bedtimes, despite trying EVERYTHING. Her 'natural' sleep cycle is from about 10 pm to 8 am, with a 2ish hour nap at about 1 pm. We tried. Turst me we tried to have an early bedtime. I need some alone time and since she's going to bed so late, I usually fall asleep with her, meaning I get NO time alone. And no time with dh. But what to do? I could fight with her for bed time and naps everyday, which isnt something I feel is right. Or I can just surrender to the fact that this is MY child, and she is just different from MOST kids. She is happy, healthy, and well rested. She rarely has any manner of meltdowns or tantrums, unless of course I try to impose a bed time on her! So this is what she needs and this is what we are working with. As for dh, I've been known to get up early (6 am) and well, wake him up in a plesant way...







: It fulfills our need for closeness, while allowing both us and dd to get the rest we need. Would your dh be willing to get up a little earlier with you and enjoy a cup of coffee or a snuggle on the couch? If your ds gets up at 8, and you and dh get up at 6:30, you would still be getting 8 hours of sleep, and you could get some alone time together. HTH


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

i won't post my dd's sleep schedule, but it definately isn't the norm. we let her sleep when she is tired and be awake when she isn't. it is 7pm and she is halfway through her afternoon nap







. my parents gave me an early bedtime and i layed in bed for hours staring at the ceiling, i'm a night owl and always have been.


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## paphia (Jun 22, 2007)

I think it's better to let your DS determine his own sleep pattern and if he is happiest when he goes down late/wakes up late and takes a late nap, then that seems to be what is normal for him.

FWIW, we have some major night owls in my family. My bro, sis, dad, dad's bro & parents all are/were night owls. They will no go to bed early. If they do, they wake up in the wee hours of the night, unable to get back to sleep and then crash during the day, then start the late-night cycle over again.

If your dh is getting super-cranky over a late bedtime, it's probably best to send HIM to bed early... and work out some "alone time" together in another way. There are 24 hours in a day, and 7 days in a week and I'm sure he can help think up some ways to clear out your schedule somewhere other than 8:30 - 10:30 pm, m-f.

And I totally disagree with medicating your DS in an attempt to "fix" his clock. That is not what allergy medicine is indicated for (and it can cause hyperactivity in some kids, worse reactions in others). I don't think your DS needs fixing, it sounds like your household schedule needs fixing. My mom tried enforcing a bedtime on my sister that didn't mesh with her needs and she spent her childhood hiding in the closet reading or listening to headphones all night instead of falling asleep. It's not something you can force.

GL!


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

we have a night owl too, DS sleeps from 10-7 if he has a nap... but in our case I think he doesn't really need the nap anymore, he skips it most days we're together (he mostly only naps at daycare). when he skips the nap (on my days off) he goes to sleep at a more reasonable time (say 8:30-7:30). Maybe your DC is outgrowing the nap as well?

That said, I'm totally sympathetic to your husband needing time with you, and I think a good relationship with our partners is one of the best gifts we can give our children. I kind of wonder if your DC is able to fall asleep within 10-15 min with your spouse they probably really are tired...

just some thoughts...

the benadryl thing is ludricrous!


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Your son's optiminal bed time is pretty clear. Your DH, as a grownup, is going to have to adjust. Children sleep because *they* need rest, not because *we* do. Sleep, like food, shouldn't be forced on them to suit our needs. We've got kids' sleep mixed up with all kinds of weird control issues in this country. I just don't get it.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

ok i have ones that sleep in the day and up 1/2 the night this works fine for me but it is not working for your family i would say let him take a nap wake him up and keep him up he will drop b4 there is a battle and b4 it is late i would not say drug him but he will be sleepy even if u can try to not let him sleep i know at that age my dd never took naps so if she did she was up way later then if she didnt she would sleep atleast 12 hours at her night and still does at 5 it dont matter when they sleep as long as they are getting enough seems that ds might be getting to much sleep in the day
dd sleeps anywere from 2am-8am and wakes up 12pm-4pm (itis beter now when she was smaller 1year-3years it was wake at 5-7pm sleep at 9-12am no naps) my ds who is 9m is about the same times as my dd is now he takes mini naps and may be one longer one 30 min to 2 hours

BENADRYL



































trust me not every child gets sleepie from that my dd takes it FOR ALLERGYS and still bounces off the walls all day and night long


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## peppercat (Feb 17, 2007)

I think you have to do what's right for your family (and that includes DH). Maybe try to wake your son up a little earlier one morning, which will then hopefully promote an earlier nap, thus earlier bedtime.

I know I would be stir crazy if my kid was still up at 10.30pm! He turned 3 in May and I have recently stopped promoting a daytime nap because it was screwing with his bedtime, and we were all getting grumpy. Now he sleeps from about 7.30pm-6.30am with no daytime nap (unless he falls asleep in the car or whatever. If this happens, I try to keep the nap short 30-60 minutes). At 20 months, if his nap went past about 3.30pm, he would be unbearable at bedtime.


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## Irish (Jun 3, 2007)

I just happened to notice that all but one person who replied to your post has only one child. I just had my second, 12 years after my first, and while all my fundamental parenting philosophies are the same I've had to change my opinion and thought process on others, which is something I TOTALLY didn't forsee happening...

I think I pretty much followed my eldest's cues on everything growing up, whether it be sleep, eating, toilet training, comfort, education etc. I don't think there's any mistake in her now being optimistic, sensitive to others, confident, intelligent, kind (I could go on forever...). Sleep was our biggest issue in the earlier years and it took it's toll on both me and my ex-husband. The exhaustion led to what I believe was situational depression or something of the like - there were often times I was clearly not functioning well in any area in my life other than in parenting my daughter. It took it's toll but I really felt it was all in the best interests of my daughter.

I'm now remarried and have just had my second. She's still very young, and I'm adamant that we not do any sleep training. We cosleep, babywear, EBF, CD but we can't always adapt to her schedule as much as we'd like (we do try the majority of the time) because we now have two childrens needs to meet. My eldest is, of course, old enough to understand and graciously accept the sacrifices we're making for our newest member but I've had to *gasp* keep the baby out late and therefore disturb her sleep to make it to piano recitals, elementary school graduations, extra curricular activities, a very sleep disturbed night for a sleepover birthday party last week etc etc etc. I was lulled into believing this might be an easier transition with a babe who slept really well for the first few months and was easily transported and nursed in the sling. It's definitely getting more and more difficult.

I guess my general feeling at this point is that the four of us need to function in a way that doesn't totally detract from our having a strong and supportive family union. I'm better at nurturing myself, letting DH play with the girls while I grab a quick power snooze, giving my 12 year old my undivided attention when I can so that she doesn't feel set aside, and finding time to nurture the bond between my DH and I. A PP stated it how I always have, the best gift you can give your children is parents who are connected and in tune with their childrens needs. Given that your LO is now a toddler, I'd probably feel comfortable with trying to regulate their sleep a little better, in the gentlest way possible of course, and work towards making these decisions together as a couple - your DH, while probably just frustrated and missing his wife (and rightly so) will also still need to compromise. It's not to say that you're LO wouldn't find a good schedule for themselves later, but I don't see how they're to function when they get to school age (provided you're not home schooling) or wanting to participate in activities or be with friends during the time schedule that most seem to fit into.

I don't think you've created bad habits, I think you've been a wonderful, nurturing, sensitive parent. I also don't think you should feel guilty or be admonished for finding a solution to something that isn't working for your family. Sorry for the long winded post, I hope you find something that leaves all of you feeling good about the situation.


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## MarchMummy (Jun 29, 2006)

If your DH is that unhappy, I would work on an earlier bedtime. Especially if he is willing to help with bedtime! Crying in his loving daddy's arms is not the same as being left to cry alone. I totally understand how hard it is to hear you LO cry though, it can be so hard to hear even when they're with their daddy. How many days did you try DH putting him to bed? It may be that your DS will get used to being put down by DH within a week or so, and then there will be no more tears.

I like the pp's idea of shortening (or even eliminating at first?) the afternoon nap. I've done that with my daughter (she's 16mo) when her sleeping schedule gets out of whack after a vacation or something.

All that said, I know it's hard when you are feeling so frustrated and torn between making your DH happy and making your child happy (and making yourself happy in there somewhere too!). Good luck, mama.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

Um...DS is almost 16 months and I don't think he's EVER gone to bed before 11pm...it's usually 12 or later.


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## pradiata (Jul 4, 2004)

Our ds was a little night owl since birth. He's now 4 1/2 and has NEVER happily woken on his own before 9 in the morning. If we let him get all the way to his own natural rhythm, he likes to stay up 'til midnight and sleep 'til whenever! My husband currently starts work late and comes home later in the evening so this doesn't bother us, but I can see how it would be very hard for families that have earlier schedules. We have tried the early-to-bed, early-to-rise thing but after a few weeks we were all wrung-out and way cranky, and unnecessarily in our case.

What about morning time together for you and your dh, before ds wakes up, instead of evening time together?


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

Is it possible that THIS is his normal sleep cycle?
Absolutely it's possible. If he's a calm happy child (mostly, for 21 months IYKWIM) with that sleep schedule and fiercely resists any changes, then it probably is.

I'm a night owl, it's biological.

But I don't know that you're really letting him sleep when he wants - it sounds like he has a regular bedtime, it's just not as early as most kids.


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## luminesce (Aug 6, 2006)

I'd follow his lead. Forced bedtimes are bad for everyone. We need to listen to our bodies. I've always been a night owl and have always hated having to fit into an expected routine when it comes to sleep (and work and "open" times of businesses.) We're all wired differently and sleep habits are no exception. Plus, it is just to hard to try to rewire yourself. I've tried as an adult and it is draining. I think for a child it would be even worse.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I read sleepless in america too and really liked it. She says a couple of times that some kids have a later clock and if you can at all you should honor it. Just making that point in her defense. Not sure how you interpreted it differently.

Try to find time with your husband and honor your sons internal clock. A chaotic day is no good for anyone. But if your son naturally naps x amount of day and sleeps at x times at night I think that keeps things in balance. For us it does anyway!


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

I have always had issues adapting to sleeping on a "normal" person's schedule. I find that when I'm not working outside the home, I always revert to "night-owl" behaviour. I have always been this way as long as I can remember.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. Yesterday evening when I told dh that ds had slept until 4:30, I expected the groaning and grumbling to ensue. Miraculously, though, dh said "okay" and left it at that. My mom's been babysitting more lately and we've had some time to ourselves, so I think he's feeling better about the whole situation.

Ds went to sleep at about 11:15 last night, and woke up at 8 this morning, so he will probably take a long nap to make up for it. I really think what I have to do now is pay attention to how ds seems to function on the schedule he chooses. I've been so preoccupied with how he SHOULD be sleeping, or eating, or developing, or whatever. I really need to make a conscious effort to remove the word "should" from my vocabulary, and interact with ds as the person he is. If it turns out he needs more sleep than he's getting, we'll find a way to make that happen. If not, we'll find a way for everyone to get what they need. I'm sure it's possible somehow.

Letting ds be in tune with and in charge of his body has always been so important to me. I don't restrain him physically unless it's absolutely necessary. I'm following his lead on solid food (even if it means all he's eating today besides breastmilk will be toast and steamed peas). Yet I've felt this pressure to regulate his sleep. Waking him up early despite my gut telling me "No! Don't do it!", trying to put him to bed when I know he'll just fight it, and even using really gentle tactics to get him to sleep when I want him to, like planning certain activities at certain times. It was still done with the intent of manipulation, and I hate admitting that. It just needs to stop.

Whew! It feels so freeing to say that!

Now one thing I'm lost on is all these references to drugging and benadryl. What's that all about? Was there a post removed?


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

nak, yeah, a post was removed.
I was thinking about this last night, and while dh and I dont go out on dates very often, we have gone out a couple of times (3?) since dd turned 22 months, and it's been really nice to leave her with my mom at 6-7, go out to a nice dinner with dh, and get home between 9-10, to know she will still be awake. If she had an early bedtime, we would have to be home much earlier, making dates impossible, since dh works until 7. So that's a plus to a later bedtime! You can go out in the evening and know that he will be ok and will wait for you to put him to bed. Or lots of times we've taken dd out to dinner, and she's been fine staying out late.


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

how can you "make" a child go to sleep? i think he must be tired if dh can get him to sleep earlier. i don't know how much of the advice from sleepless in america you've tried, but she does have advice for trying to gently shift sleep schedules... or how to cope with trying to make a big change. she also says that you likely can't shift a child more than an hour or so off their preferred time... so maybe you can find a compromise time that is still comfortable for your son but give you even a bit of time with DH!

we've had to cut naps short with DS or he will be up later than us sometimes! especially with two kids, i just need a little downtime. we try not to let DS nap more than 2 hours or past about 4pm. he now goes down around 8:30, sleeps to around 6:30 and naps about 50% of the time.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

If he falls asleep when he's tired, that's great.
Unfortunately, it never worked for us. I tried several times and my 2.5 would refuse to go to sleep without some kind of routine to prepare him for nighttime. He would be so tired he would stumble and his eyes were bloodshot, but he just wouldn't sleep until I nursed him, or put on some soothing music, or laid down with him etc.
I think it's important to follow the child's lead.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Sleep when tired, don't when not.


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## timneh_mom (Jun 13, 2005)

Transylvania mom, my son is the same. He has never just fallen asleep on his own without some kind of help. He is very active and has always needed some help getting settled enough to sleep. He could be completely ugly-tired (you know what this looks like!!) and still would need help settling down to bed. Honestly if we didn't put him to bed, he would never sleep. He would still be up at 1 am and that is simply not something we can do at our house. DD also needs a lot of help getting down, so we're repeating the same kinds of things with her. Maybe this works with mellower kids, but it doesn't work with mine.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Mine has to be forced to sleep. He always has. He is the master at keeping himself awake beyond all reason and becomes a horrible destructive person when he is tired. We tried everything, believe me...and he does not sleep when he is tired. He wakes with the dawn, naturally, so depending on when that is we have to set his bedtime at a reasonable hour... so when he was waking at quarter to 5am, his bedtime was 6pm. Now that he's waking around 530 to 545am, he goes to bed at 630-7. His naptime is between 11 and 12 for 1 hour. Forcing him to go to bed makes HIM and everyone around him much happier. He's not an ordinary baby though and unless we're in a car (not often, since we do not own one) he does not just fall asleep when he is tired.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

For our 23 month old it depends a lot on the nap. At daycare she naps for 3 hours, so then she sleeps ~10 pm - 7 am, in the weekend she only naps for 1 hour and then it is ~8:30 pm - 7 am. For us it kind of works, but we do miss time alone in the evening. Also sometimes I fall asleep with her, so then I don't have any time to myself.

Carma


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## GracesMama (Oct 24, 2006)

I had the same concerns after reading the No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and tried to force 2 year old DD to go to sleep earlier, but it was pure hell. Now we let her go to sleep around 10:00, she gets up anytime between 8 and 10 in the morning and then takes a fairly long nap (2 hours is the average).

The only negative is the lack of alone time with my husband. However, I was in the same place as you were (crying every night, losing my patience and yelling, about ready to punch a wall), so for right now this is better for us. I'm hoping that once winter comes and it gets darker earlier, DD will go to sleep earlier.

Oh, and amongst my friends who practice AP, all their kids go to bed around 9or 10 and then sleep in...very interesting.

I truly feel for you!


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