# I want to throw up.



## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

Since I don't work there anymore, I can complain about it. I worked at Babies R Us for a year and a half. In the past couple months I have had arguments with the supervisor of baby gear (car seats included) and other employees about the safety of rear-facing. She refused to agree that it was a good idea.

A couple days ago I was telling her how I had to talk a family out of buying a Nautilus for their 6 month old. Her response? "Well technically he probably could have used it because he might be over the 20 pound mark." After I told her that Michigan law was one year AND 20 pounds, she just said: "oh".

I went to the store manager and told her that it concerned me that the person in charge of carseats doesn't even know the laws of the state. Her response? "Well technically the forward facing thing is just a recommendation, not a law." Ummm no! How scary is this??? I was quick to correct her immediately.

I've been battling them for over a year to get fliers about car seat installation. We used to have them, but don't anymore. Nobody thinks it's important. I used to give one out to everyone that bought a carseat from me, and encouraged others to as well. They have replaced them with stroller fitness classes.

When I was first hired there they were telling customers that the only carseat that was allowed on airplanes was the Britax. Don't know where they got that from...

On top of that, one of our employees had to stop breastfeeding her daughter because the store (the breast-feeding friendly store as they say) wouldn't allow her an extra 5 minutes on her break to pump. But that's off topic and a different rant.

So glad I'm out of there, but worried about the families that don't know any better.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I can appreciate your passion, but do people really expect the clerks at Babies R Us to be carseat experts?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think knowing the most basic law is important b/c their employees could give someone the wrong info.

why would someone think rear facing is not a good idea?


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Is this something you can make your local news aware of? I mean this shouldnt be something controversial like vaxes.







:


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i think knowing the most basic law is important b/c their employees could give someone the wrong info.

why would someone think rear facing is not a good idea?

I know I'm just off-topic, and I do apologize. I'm just surprised a store would allow employees to give legal information at all. Obviously, anyone can get the law wrong. I know if I was buying a carseat, while I would expect the clerk to know about the carseat, I would be surprised (and annoyed actually) if they started informing me about the law, especially if they were wrong like these two people were. And giving out any legal advice seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

thats true. you would think they would have a policy on that. admittedly its hard to know what is good about each carseat if you don't even think rear facing is safer.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

We can't give out any information about safety reports. Such as, we can't say that Britax is proven to be safer than Cosco because of legal reasons (that and the fact that there aren't really reports like that out there that give a good enough answer). However, we do tell the laws. And yeah, customers expect us to know a lot. They have even asked us how to install them, which we absolutely cannot comment on. We can tell them that there are recommendations for extended rear-facing and such.

A lot of people at the store don't feel rear-facing is a good idea. One woman told me that it wasn't good because the child would be able to move the seat by being rear-facing at an older age, and that every time the seat moves the safety goes down. However, if the seat is installed correctly am I right in assuming that it shouldn't be able to move like that?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i don't think a kid would be able to move it if its installed correctly.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I know I'm just off-topic, and I do apologize. I'm just surprised a store would allow employees to give legal information at all. Obviously, anyone can get the law wrong. I know if I was buying a carseat, while I would expect the clerk to know about the carseat, I would be surprised (and annoyed actually) if they started informing me about the law, especially if they were wrong like these two people were. And giving out any legal advice seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Exactly what I was thinking too. Honestly, I wouldn't expect anyone at the store to be able to tell me anything about anything there beyond the price and stocking info.







I have pretty low expectations based on experience so I never even ask anymore.


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## allisonrose (Oct 22, 2004)

Just recently I spoke to a mama who'd purchased a forward facing only carseat for her 11 month old on the basis of a recommendation from a big-box (non-baby specific) store. I thought about calling them and letting them know that their clerks shouldn't be giving out advice on carseats especially illegal advice that could catch up to them later but I have a bit of history with that store....


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

I guess I compare it to Best Buy and such. You ask for opinions from them (even if you don't really take it into a lot of consideration) and it may/may not influence your decision. My mother is the type that takes the salespersons opinions as the gospel.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

what if the salesperson has no idea what they are talking about? IME if you want the sales people to know anything about what they are selling you have to go to a store that specifically focuses on what you want.

for instance the lady restocking the aisle at target has absolutely no idea what kind of baby sling i should buy.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I know I'm just off-topic, and I do apologize. I'm just surprised a store would allow employees to give legal information at all. Obviously, anyone can get the law wrong. I know if I was buying a carseat, while I would expect the clerk to know about the carseat, I would be surprised (and annoyed actually) if they started informing me about the law, especially if they were wrong like these two people were. And giving out any legal advice seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I was thinking the same thing. I used to work at a big box and we weren't allowed to share liability type advice. It sets the employee and employer up for huge lawsuits.

Although one time I put aside the legal fear and told a guy he couldn't put a propane heater on the table next to his daughter's crib. (Ice storm cut electricity for a few days over here).

Seriously...??? If you have no electricity, why aren't you holding your newborn anyways... agh!


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...3709--,00.html

There is no mention of forward facing until 20lbs or 1 year being a law. I know many states have this recommendation,and some people thin it is law.. but it's not. Your own states website doesn't even mention.

Now I am not saying one is better than the other. But I don't thin it is worth getting upset over the fact that a store wont give out "legal" advise when it is not even a law.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

But aren't you doing that in a baby store? A store that specializes in baby products? I would think it would be necessary on the company's front to train the employees to have accurate information about products and laws that go along with them when they impact the safety of the customer and their families.

I think a lot of customers do plenty of research on their own, but for those like my mother, who only listen to the salesperson, I worry.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...3709--,00.html

There is no mention of forward facing until 20lbs or 1 year being a law. I know many states have this recommendation,and some people thin it is law.. but it's not. Your own states website doesn't even mention.

Now I am not saying one is better than the other. But I don't thin it is worth getting upset over the fact that a store wont give out "legal" advise when it is not even a law.

And mix-ups like this are exactly why stores shouldn't have clerks giving out advice unless they are thoroughly trained on the product and applicable laws.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...g_263780_7.pdf


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i worry about someone who only listens to salespeople whether the sales people are informed or not. well i actually don't... but i do think thats bizarre... you don't even know them they may have absolutely no idea what they are talking about but enjoy making things up for fun.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
But aren't you doing that in a baby store? A store that specializes in baby products? I would think it would be necessary on the company's front to train the employees to have accurate information about products and laws that go along with them when they impact the safety of the customer and their families.

I think a lot of customers do plenty of research on their own, but for those like my mother, who only listen to the salesperson, I worry.

I understand what you are saying here and your heart is certainly in the right place, but BRU is not in position to do that. To be sure that accurate info is being given it would really require the product manufacturers to come in an do product training. Places do do this, but I just don't see it being a cost-effective plan in retail store like that.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

If you can't go to a baby store to get advice where would someone actually go? Most people aren't going to bother researching it online, just to be brutally honest. Obviously anywhere you go you get skewed advice anyway due to them trying to get higher sales and profits, but if you can't get advice from a clerk at a baby store, where else are you going to get it? Doctors don't know that information, most people don't know about SafeKids or would bother to call...


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Posters are not laws.

The actual law is here: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(dgz...e=mcl-257-710d .

There is no specific mention that a child needs to be 1 year and 20 pounds to forward-face, but the law does require that the seat be used "properly", which is held to mean in accordance with manufacturer requirements. There is currently no forward-facing seat on the market that requires a child to be LESS than 1 year and 20 pounds, but some seats require MORE (Britax Frontier requires 2 years and 25 pounds, Compass True Fit requires 1 year and 23 pounds, etc.), so while it is illegal to turn a child forward-facing at six months, it's not because there's a specific law against it but because the law requires adherence to carseat limits.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...g_263780_7.pdf

The odd thing about this is that the link on the bottom of that pdf takes you to the same site that aniT linked previously.







I can't find anything more than that pdf that says that is what MI law is. Odd.

ETA: This link says _should_ not must or that it is law.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...g_263780_7.pdf

that is a survey.. and a very long one. Is there a specific page where it says what the law is? Because again, your own state's website doenst say this.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I linked the actual law a few posts up.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

I may be wrong then, I have always heard that was the law here (including from my firefighter/EMT neighbor, but I guess he could be wrong as well). Maybe I'm the one in the wrong then, which would make my whole post a complete wash and makes me even sicker then when I started it. I just honestly feel that safety should be pushed more with parents who are asking about it. Obviously legal concerns have to be taken into consideration however.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't get a survey - I get a poster that states that children must be 20 pounds and one year to forward face and that it's the law.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
If you can't go to a baby store to get advice where would someone actually go? Most people aren't going to bother researching it online, just to be brutally honest. Obviously anywhere you go you get skewed advice anyway due to them trying to get higher sales and profits, but if you can't get advice from a clerk at a baby store, where else are you going to get it? Doctors don't know that information, most people don't know about SafeKids or would bother to call...

There's a reason why they say you are your own best advocate. I know that people do it, but it's not anyone's fault but their own if they blindly rely on the advice of a random stranger for the decisions they make in life. I realize that may sound harsh, but it's just the truth.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I linked the actual law a few posts up.

yea.. I saw that later.

So, it looks like in this case, the employees of BRU were correct. It's jut a recommendation not a law and as such it's not their business to tell people what they can and cannot buy.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Firefighters and EMTs are not CPSTs (some are, of course, but not all). Firefighters know how to fight fires. CPSTs know carseats. If people have carseat questions, they should ask CPSTs. If their house is on fire, they should call firefighters. I know carseats, but can't do much about raging flames. The reverse is also true for firefighters.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
yea.. I saw that later.

So, it looks like in this case, the employees of BRU were correct. It's jut a recommendation not a law and as such it's not their business to tell people what they can and cannot buy.

No. It is the law -- not just a recommendation -- that a seat cannot be used contrary to manufacturer's directions. If the manufacturer does not certify a forward-facing seat for use by a 9-month-old (and no US manufacturer does), it would be illegal for a 9-month-old to use the seat. It's not illegal to sell it, but it would be illegal to use it.


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## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

I'm going to back out now. It's obvious that I was wrong, and I accept that, but my main purpose of this post was my concerns for the children and I kind of feel attacked at this point. I'm sure it was not the purpose of the posts, but I will respectfully back down at this point.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I linked the actual law a few posts up.









I think we are all posting too quickly to see all the most recent posts.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
No. It is the law -- not just a recommendation -- that a seat cannot be used contrary to manufacturer's directions. If the manufacturer does not certify a forward-facing seat for use by a 9-month-old (and no US manufacturer does), it would be illegal for a 9-month-old to use the seat. It's not illegal to sell it, but it would be illegal to use it.

But aren't there convertible seats that can be positioned both ways? Wouldn't the police have to prove that the user of the seat knew 100% that it couldn't be forward facing?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
I'm going to back out now. It's obvious that I was wrong, and I accept that, but my main purpose of this post was my concerns for the children and I kind of feel attacked at this point. I'm sure it was not the purpose of the posts, but I will respectfully back down at this point.

Please don't feel attacked. Just know that some of us are fact checkers. It's nothing personal.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama* 
But aren't there convertible seats that can be positioned both ways?

Yes, but they have separate requirements for rear-facing and forward-facing. No seat certified for use in the US allows forward-facing BELOW 1 year and 20 pounds; however, some have higher requirements -- the law defers to the manufacturer's certification.

ETA to respond to your edit







-- yes, the police would have to prove that the driver *should have known* about the forward-facing limits, but with the big stickers on the side of the seat, that shouldn't be difficult.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I am sorry...I edited while you were replying.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I have to say, it's not a very clear law.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
If you can't go to a baby store to get advice where would someone actually go? Most people aren't going to bother researching it online, just to be brutally honest. Obviously anywhere you go you get skewed advice anyway due to them trying to get higher sales and profits, but if you can't get advice from a clerk at a baby store, where else are you going to get it? Doctors don't know that information, most people don't know about SafeKids or would bother to call...

Doctors should know this information. As a matter of fact, I remember being given flyer's with this information when I used to go to well baby visits with my older kids.

I just wouldn't expect the clerk at BRU to now any more about the laws regarding their products than I would an employee at home depot to know if I need a building permit or not. It is my responsibliity to find this info out. Not theirs.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Yes, but they have separate requirements for rear-facing and forward-facing. No seat certified for use in the US allows forward-facing BELOW 1 year and 20 pounds; however, some have higher requirements -- the law defers to the manufacturer's certification.

ETA to respond to your edit







-- yes, the police would have to prove that the driver *should have known* about the forward-facing limits, but with the big stickers on the side of the seat, that shouldn't be difficult.

would they really have to prove anything? if you break a law you break a law whether you knew about it or not right? if not maybe we should work on that.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I purchased a car seat from a farily large independent baby/kid store. It was in the region of three different states and they had a folder with each state's law copied and printed out for customers to read. I thought that was very helpful.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Yes, but they have separate requirements for rear-facing and forward-facing. No seat certified for use in the US allows forward-facing BELOW 1 year and 20 pounds; however, some have higher requirements -- the law defers to the manufacturer's certification.

ETA to respond to your edit







-- yes, the police would have to prove that the driver *should have known* about the forward-facing limits, but with the big stickers on the side of the seat, that shouldn't be difficult.

I would read one year and 20 lbs to be which ever comes first.. becuase it doesn't state that one way or the other.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I would read one year and 20 lbs to be which ever comes first.. becuase it doesn't state that one way or the other.

if it were whichever comes first wouldn't it be one year or 20 lbs?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I would read one year and 20 lbs to be which ever comes first.. becuase it doesn't state that one way or the other.

One year AND 20 lbs means both. One year OR 20 lbs would mean whichever comes first.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if it were whichever comes first wouldn't it be one year or 20 lbs?

One year and 20lbs doesn't make sense to me. It should be worded whichever comes last then. I think it is poorly worded.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
One year AND 20 lbs means both. One year OR 20 lbs would mean whichever comes first.

Thats not the way I read it. In my head it makes no sense.  It should SAY whichever is first or last to be clear.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

they have to be one year and 20lbs.... im thinking about it.. and it still makes sense to me.. but maybe b/c i am used to thinking of it that way









i keep trying lol.. and definitely means both.. because if they are 20 lbs but not one year that is not 20 lbs and one year. wow ... this is harder then i thought


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

CHP, fire department. This is where we refer people. You can't legally give carseat info unless you are trained to do so. I highly doubt that BRU personnel are trained.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
CHP, fire department. This is where we refer people. You can't legally give carseat info unless you are trained to do so. I highly doubt that BRU personnel are trained.

there is a lady who goes to my grocery store who need to get a citation or something. she drives me nuts and keeps asking when i am going to turn ds FF. i don't even know the woman.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
they have to be one year and 20lbs.... im thinking about it.. and it still makes sense to me.. but maybe b/c i am used to thinking of it that way









i keep trying lol.. and definitely means both.. because if they are 20 lbs but not one year that is not 20 lbs and one year. wow ... this is harder then i thought









But you can't necessarily be one year and 20 lbs. You could be one year and 25lbs.. but not necessarily one year and 20lbs.

But as I said.. my oldest kids were born in a time when it was whichever was first. So I guess it's just how you have thought about it the longest.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

lol thats probably true.... and i think a lot of kids reach 1 yr and 20 lbs around roughly the same time.

my FIL says that when he was a kid they just held babies in the car. this was his excuse when he tried to explain why he tied ds's car seat in the car.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
they have to be one year and 20lbs.... im thinking about it.. and it still makes sense to me.. but maybe b/c i am used to thinking of it that way









i keep trying lol.. and definitely means both.. because if they are 20 lbs but not one year that is not 20 lbs and one year. wow ... this is harder then i thought










Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
lol thats probably true.... and i think a lot of kids reach 1 yr and 20 lbs around roughly the same time.

my FIL says that when he was a kid they just held babies in the car. this was his excuse when he tried to explain why he tied ds's car seat in the car.

Hehe.. that is kinda funny.. in a sad sort of way. Being ignorant of the law is no excuse though. However with this one.. I think it could be worded differently to be clearer. Last I checked there was no safe age/weight to tie car seats in the car.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if there was fil would have found it just to prove me wrong.

i imagine that since most people just turn their kids when they turn 1 yr you are probably right about the wording. people always say "but he's one year you can turn him" ... ok i can but its not a requirement or anything.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Doctors should know this information. As a matter of fact, I remember being given flyer's with this information when I used to go to well baby visits with my older kids.

Doctors don't know this information. In fact, even though the AAP recently revised their recommendations, making it even clearer that rear-facing is safer, pediatricians are still saying "Well, your baby is a year old! You can turn him around now."

The only people you can count on to know this information are people specifically trained in it. They're called CPSTs. A place that gets frequent inquiries should stock brochures released by the NHTSA, SafeKids, the AAP, or some such organization with some expertise and a reputation on the line. When employees are asked questions, they should grab a brochure and tell the customer (politely) to read all they want.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

why does it always take pediatricians so long to catch up with current recommendations? i think i know more about what the AAP recommends in regards to babies than some pediatricians i know.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Doctors don't know this information. In fact, even though the AAP recently revised their recommendations, making it even clearer that rear-facing is safer, pediatricians are still saying "Well, your baby is a year old! You can turn him around now."

The only people you can count on to know this information are people specifically trained in it. They're called CPSTs. A place that gets frequent inquiries should stock brochures released by the NHTSA, SafeKids, the AAP, or some such organization with some expertise and a reputation on the line. When employees are asked questions, they should grab a brochure and tell the customer (politely) to read all they want.

When I lived in California I was given flyers with the current laws on it.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
But you can't necessarily be one year and 20 lbs. You could be one year and 25lbs.. but not necessarily one year and 20lbs.

But as I said.. my oldest kids were born in a time when it was whichever was first. So I guess it's just how you have thought about it the longest.









It should say "1 year and AT LEAST 20lbs." Because that is what they mean.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
It should say "1 year and AT LEAST 20lbs." Because that is what they mean.


I often see it worded as "BOTH 1 year AND 20lbs" which, with the word 'both', I think is pretty clear.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I agree that wording may be confusing, but since the law in Michigan (and many other states) is to use the carseats according to the manufacturer's specifications, all a person would need to do is read the carseat manual, which is pretty detailed and specific.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I agree that wording may be confusing, but since the law in Michigan (and many other states) is to use the carseats according to the manufacturer's specifications, all a person would need to do is read the carseat manual, which is pretty detailed and specific.

Yep that is true. And as I said before, it is the responsibility of the buyer to know this information or know where to get it.. not the responsibility of the store to give it out. Signs with the webadress/phone number of installation clinics or installers might be a good choice. But seriously, If I wanted to know the law about something, I would call the police department.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Did anyone notice this????

Quote:

(2) This section does not apply to any child being nursed.

Does this mean that it is actually legal to nurse a child in a moving vehicle???


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
Did anyone notice this????

Does this mean that it is actually legal to nurse a child in a moving vehicle???

I have heard of this in one state back east.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
Does this mean that it is actually legal to nurse a child in a moving vehicle???

I believe there was a case a couple years ago where a mother who started out in Michigan (or lived in Michigan or something) was nursing a child in... Ohio, I believe, in a moving car. She got ticketed, I believe, and tried to fight it. Let me see if I can find that info...


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...04/detail.html


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
I believe there was a case a couple years ago where a mother who started out in Michigan (or lived in Michigan or something) was nursing a child in... Ohio, I believe, in a moving car. She got ticketed, I believe, and tried to fight it. Let me see if I can find that info...

Isn't that the one who was nursing while driving and talking on the cell phone and taking notes? Then she refused to give the cop her info cause only her husband could do that? It was strange.. I guess I will go read your link.


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...04/detail.html

That is wild! I can't believe the woman gave no thought to the fact that her baby was unsafe out of a carseat. Of course she made sure SHE was wearing a seatbelt, but the baby could just lay there because it isn't illegal.

I will continue to be horrified by this for the rest of the day.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Isn't that the one who was nursing while driving and talking on the cell phone and taking notes? Then she refused to give the cop her info cause only her husband could do that? It was strange.. I guess I will go read your link.

I think that was a second one that happened recently.... February of this year maybe? A woman driving, breastfeeding and talking on a cell phone. Insane. That one was in Ohio too. Maybe we should all just avoid roads in Ohio... LOL (said jokingly... my older sis lives in Ohio. While she does breastfeed, she wouldn't while driving! I also drive through Ohio regularly to get to Michigan







).


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

The law in MI used to be that if you were nursing a baby then you couldnt be ticketed for the baby not being in a carseat, dont know if they took that out when they recently changed (improved) the carseat laws.

I am pretty surprised that there isnt an expectation that the people selling you are carseat at *a baby store* know the bare minimum of how to use that carseat. When i go to Best Buy to buy a video card for my son's computer, i expect the guy who is working that specific section to know which one i should buy, or at *the very least* not give me bad advice. Its ok for him to say "i dont have an opinion" or "i cant tell you the answer to that" but for him to sell me a product that is actually BAD for my computer is not cool. I would expect less from the guy at walmart, but i presume additional training at places like Best Buy which is more of a specialty/product specific type of place.

So, in a similar vein, i would expect the manager of baby gear at BRU to know the bare minimum basics about carseat safety and carseat products...for example, i would expect her to know that a baby must be 1 yr old AND at least 20 pounds to forward face, so that the workers in that section were not erroneously selling fwd facing only carseats to parents of 9 month olds. To me, thats basic common sense. Now, would i expect that same person to tell people not to fwd face until the limits of the seat (so, not the minimum 1 and 20)...well, that would be really nice, but no, i wouldnt expect it. Would i expect this same person to NOT tell someone "oh, no, ERF is so unsafe because the child could move the seat or break his legs!", yes, i would expect them to NOT give out stupid advice. Unfortunately thats not always the case.

I think most parents spending 200 or 300 hundred bucks on a seat at BRU fully expect to get some guidance from the person selling it to them, esp since the person usually ACTS like they know what they are talking about.

I think its really sad that a person working (ESP a manager or supervisor) in a baby-specific store wouldnt WANT to keep up to date on the latest info, provide good info to their customers etc. But at the very least they should not be giving out info that is contrary to the manufacturer's guidelines of a product they are selling to their customers.

Katherine


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Hi all! Please keep in mind the new guidelines for discussing news articles:

Quote:

We will allow members to discuss news items in appropriate parenting forums such as breastfeeding items in lactivism, birth related items in the birth forums or chickenpox outbreaks in Health & Healing. However, keep in mind that threads still need to remain on-topic for the forum and should not be about individuals but about the general topic.
You can find the full text here.

Please keep all talk about the recently posted news article to the general topic, and not about the individuals involved.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
That is wild! I can't believe the woman gave no thought to the fact that her baby was unsafe out of a carseat. Of course she made sure SHE was wearing a seatbelt, but the baby could just lay there because it isn't illegal.

I will continue to be horrified by this for the rest of the day.

It's amazing how car seat laws differ from state to state.

As far as the OP is concerned, I do not expect the sales people at any store to be experts on laws that concern my children. My kids = my responsibility to know what's right and what's wrong. And even if the sales person was correct, I would still look up the information myself because frankly, when it comes to my kids, the only one I really trust is myself.


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## MoonStarFalling (Nov 4, 2004)

Like a previous poster, I was ignorant of my state's laws until one day at the store I saw a stack of posters indicating the law. I'm so glad my store had those because I had no idea that you shouldn't turn a 20 pound 4 month old. I wish all stores included these sheets next to their car seats.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

The nursing exemption in Michigan law has not been removed. There is current legislation that would do that, finally. Although it hasn't been voted on the last couple times it's been introduced, so I'm not holding my breath. It's blocking access to millions of dollars of federal funding for child restraints.

I would prefer that baby stores did one of two things, train their staff as CPST's (and we have some awesome local stores that have done just that!!) OR teach their staff to NOT answer questions but refer them to a list of local CPST's, and/or a national list of resources.

Parents do expect the advice of a sales person to at least be sort of accurate, and it's often wildly wrong. I here all kinds of stories from parents who were told crazy things, and then I have to go back and explain that they are not CPST's, they should not be offering that advice, etc. And here is what the real advice is...


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## UberMama (Feb 27, 2007)

I worked at Babies R Us a few years back. Even at our store, there were issues with associates telling customers the wrong information about car seat laws, what was safest, etc.

I was in BRU recently and had to explain to a woman why her 18ish month old DD was not safe in a booster and it was against the law. The associate was showing her boosters and then I spoke up, so he began showing her the Nautilus and I spoke up again and he got mad and left.. her and I ended up talking and was grateful for the info I gave her. Sheesh. :/


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
The nursing exemption in Michigan law has not been removed.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Pro BFing is one thing, but that shouldn't be at the expense of safety. Seriously people you should not have your baby unbuckled in a moving car. Even if you are nursing.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Breastmilk has a lot of superpowers, but it can't safely restrain a child in a crash.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

meh. I'm just always for LESS legislation. I don't want or need the government micromanaging my life







Some people do, though, so YMMV.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't think it's micromanaging to codify into law that car in motion = baby in car seat.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
















I could not disagree with this more. It takes a split second for an accident to happen, God forbid. Why not just pull over to feed the baby?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
Pro BFing is one thing, but that shouldn't be at the expense of safety. Seriously people you should not have your baby unbuckled in a moving car. Even if you are nursing.

Yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Breastmilk has a lot of superpowers, but it can't safely restrain a child in a crash.

Yes to this, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
meh. I'm just always for LESS legislation. I don't want or need the government micromanaging my life







Some people do, though, so YMMV.

Sadly, some people need to be micromanaged.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UberMama* 
I worked at Babies R Us a few years back. Even at our store, there were issues with associates telling customers the wrong information about car seat laws, what was safest, etc.

I was in BRU recently and had to explain to a woman why her 18ish month old DD was not safe in a booster and it was against the law. The associate was showing her boosters and then I spoke up, so he began showing her the Nautilus and I spoke up again and he got mad and left.. her and I ended up talking and was grateful for the info I gave her. Sheesh. :/

Eh... I have a Nautilus, and while my 5 year old uses it and my 2 year old uses her old Evenflo advanced I am wondering why an 18 month old couldn't use it if the child fit the height and weight requirement?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
I don't think it's micromanaging to codify into law that car in motion = baby in car seat.

I do, but I'm a libertarian, so...


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## Mommybree (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Eh... I have a Nautilus, and while my 5 year old uses it and my 2 year old uses her old Evenflo advanced I am wondering why an 18 month old couldn't use it if the child fit the height and weight requirement?









Ideally, an 18 month old should be rear-facing. The Nautilus doesn't rear-face, so I wouldn't recommend it for an 18 month old, even if they met the minimum requirements for it.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I do, but I'm a libertarian, so...

This is completely off topic, but if the purpose of laws is to protect people from significant damage due to the actions of others, which is the general libertarian philosophy that laws must prevent a greivious harm to justify the restriction of the freedom of individuals, wouldn't infant car seat laws fall under the category of justified law?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommybree* 
Ideally, an 18 month old should be rear-facing. The Nautilus doesn't rear-face, so I wouldn't recommend it for an 18 month old, even if they met the minimum requirements for it.

But again, the BRU employee was showing a customer a car seat within the parameters of the law, and within the car seat manufacturers specifications. So I can see why he would get annoyed with a customer coming and and saying otherwise. It could be that this parent was hoping not to have to buy a million different car seats for the same child and felt the Nautilus would fit that bill! I hoped to do that with the Evenflo Advanced, however my daughter outgrew it too.

FWIW I turned my youger kids by around 18 months. They absolutely HATED rear facing when their little bodies were that big. And yes. while I know some of you prefer the extended rear facing, I just don't agree with it. Sometimes we have to make the best choices for our families.


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## Mommybree (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
But again, the BRU employee was showing a customer a car seat within the parameters of the law, and within the car seat manufacturers specifications. So I can see why he would get annoyed with a customer coming and and saying otherwise. It could be that this parent was hoping not to have to buy a million different car seats for the same child and felt the Nautilus would fit that bill! I hoped to do that with the Evenflo Advanced, however my daughter outgrew it too.

FWIW I turned my youger kids by around 18 months. They absolutely HATED rear facing when their little bodies were that big. And yes. while I know some of you prefer the extended rear facing, I just don't agree with it. Sometimes we have to make the best choices for our families.

Ah, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of a BRU recommending it to a customer.







There are worse things (like the boosters he was originally showing the parent). However, if I were shopping for something, and the store employee wasn't up-to-date on info, I would gladly listen to another customer so that I could go research it myself.

I guess I was just thinking how research shows kids the age of an 18 month old are over 500% safer rear-facing than forward-facing and that the 18 month old would be significantly safer rear-facing, and I sort of ran with that with my original reply. I just had to turn my 4 year old forward-facing when she met the weight limit of her convertible carseat. I am uncomfortable with the decrease in safety going to forward-facing from rear-facing with a 4 year old, so that's where I was coming from with only an 18 month old.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I agree that a Nautilus would not be my first choice for an 18-month-old, but I would consider it a victory if a mother who was looking at boosters for that toddler bought a Nautilus instead.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommybree* 
Ideally, an 18 month old should be rear-facing. The Nautilus doesn't rear-face, so I wouldn't recommend it for an 18 month old, even if they met the minimum requirements for it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommybree* 
Ah, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of a BRU recommending it to a customer.







There are worse things (like the boosters he was originally showing the parent). However, if I were shopping for something, and the store employee wasn't up-to-date on info, I would gladly listen to another customer so that I could go research it myself.

I guess I was just thinking how research shows kids the age of an 18 month old are over 500% safer rear-facing than forward-facing and that the 18 month old would be significantly safer rear-facing, and I sort of ran with that with my original reply. I just had to turn my 4 year old forward-facing when she met the weight limit of her convertible carseat. I am uncomfortable with the decrease in safety going to forward-facing from rear-facing with a 4 year old, so that's where I was coming from with only an 18 month old.

They are safer walking than riding in a car as well.







My 2 year old is forward facing. I am comfortable that he is nearly as safe FF as he is RF. I don't always agree with statistics, and I don't want to live my life scared of them either. We do the best we can and move on.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I agree that a Nautilus would not be my first choice for an 18-month-old, but I would consider it a victory if a mother who was looking at boosters for that toddler bought a Nautilus instead.

And I can just imagine what this mother was thinking. Car seats are EXPENSIVE. Every time you turn around they change the laws. Each time you bought the best there is, something better comes out. So you want something that is going to last as long as it possibly can last.

When my 5 year old was about 2.5 I bought her a high back booster seat. It had the harness on it and went up to 100lbs. I thought I would never have to buy another seat. I was unaware however that the harness came off and you could only use the seatbelt after 40lbs. Which she hit at age 3. At age three I bought the EvenFlo Advanced (Nautilus wasn't out yet) Other than the Regent which I could not afford it had the highest weight limit for the harness. She outgrew that at 5. So I bought her the Nautilus. This doesn't even count her original Evenflo. So for this one, 5 year old child, I have spent well over $400 on car seats. Because she keeps growing and they keep changing the laws.

There is also the fact that I thin MOST PEOPLE are not aware of the fact that with the high back boosters you can't use the harness after X pounds until after you buy it and bring it home. By then it feels too late and you feel screwed. They should make that info CLEAR ON THE BOX. That way if you have tall children you will KNOW that you are going to have to buy another car seat. A 3 year old is not ready for a belt only booster seat.


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## UberMama (Feb 27, 2007)

Sorry, I didn't specify, he told her only other option beside the boosters was to get a Nautilus. Her and I were still talking when he came up and began talking about the Nautilus. She said she'd think about it, I then asked what her DD weighed and she told me and I asked what about keeping her RF for a bit longer. The employee rolled his eyes, huffed, walked off and she just kinda looked at me and laughed and we began talking more about other seat options.

She was shopping for the safest option. She asked him prior to my talking to her, "But will she even fit into a booster properly?" and he said, "OH YES!" and trailed off on why it'd last her until she was ten years old, etc. :/

I didn't think to get into the specifics, sorry again!

ETA: She ended up going home and her DH bought a TF online. (We exchanged numbers as it turns out she lives just a couple of blocks from me)


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## Mommybree (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
They are safer walking than riding in a car as well.







My 2 year old is forward facing. I am comfortable that he is nearly as safe FF as he is RF. I don't always agree with statistics, and I don't want to live my life scared of them either. We do the best we can and move on.









I guess for me, it is because I find driving so dangerous that I am concerned about trying to reduce the risks of injuries in a car crash by rear-facing my kiddos if possible. I get what you are saying about the walking versus the car, though.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
And I can just imagine what this mother was thinking. Car seats are EXPENSIVE. Every time you turn around they change the laws. Each time you bought the best there is, something better comes out. So you want something that is going to last as long as it possibly can last.

When my 5 year old was about 2.5 I bought her a high back booster seat. It had the harness on it and went up to 100lbs. I thought I would never have to buy another seat. I was unaware however that the harness came off and you could only use the seatbelt after 40lbs. Which she hit at age 3. At age three I bought the EvenFlo Advanced (Nautilus wasn't out yet) Other than the Regent which I could not afford it had the highest weight limit for the harness. She outgrew that at 5. So I bought her the Nautilus. This doesn't even count her original Evenflo. So for this one, 5 year old child, I have spent well over $400 on car seats. Because she keeps growing and they keep changing the laws.

There is also the fact that I thin MOST PEOPLE are not aware of the fact that with the high back boosters you can't use the harness after X pounds until after you buy it and bring it home. By then it feels too late and you feel screwed. They should make that info CLEAR ON THE BOX. That way if you have tall children you will KNOW that you are going to have to buy another car seat. A 3 year old is not ready for a belt only booster seat.

With respect, it is clear on the box. And two years ago, there were other seats that went higher than 50# and cost less than the Regent. I'm not saying this just to be right, but to make the point that if carseats are a major purchase (they are for me!), people need to do their research before stepping in the store.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
With respect, it is clear on the box. And two years ago, there were other seats that went higher than 50# and cost less than the Regent. I'm not saying this just to be right, but to make the point that if carseats are a major purchase (they are for me!), people need to do their research before stepping in the store.

With respect, the one I bought DID NOT make that clear on the box.

Also, when I researched it there was not anything besides the Regent and the Evenflo Advanced that went up to 50lbs. At least not that I could buy in my area. The Evenflo Advanced had JUST come out when I bought it. It was a PITA to find.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

i think what bothers me (and maybe it was what really bothered the OP too), is not that the staff at BRU need to be "experts" in carseats (though it would be nice if they were), but rather it sounded like even when she tried to educate her coworkers, esp the manager of that section, they totally didnt want to hear it, or disagreed with her even though facts were on her side. I dont blame her for being mad. I totally get and agree that parents ultimately are responsible for their own children and looking up facts on their own...but i dont think we should so easily dismiss the fact that employees of what is probably the biggest baby store in America are telling parents really dangerous info (like, you should put a child not even two in a booster?! For real?!). BRU acts like they care about babies, and if thats true, i think they should put at least a little effort in not having their employees give out crap advice. That must have been a very hard work environment for the OP.









Katherine


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...3709--,00.html

There is no mention of forward facing until 20lbs or 1 year being a law. I know many states have this recommendation,and some people thin it is law.. but it's not. Your own states website doesn't even mention.

Now I am not saying one is better than the other. But I don't thin it is worth getting upset over the fact that a store wont give out "legal" advise when it is not even a law.

Skipping ahead of the rests of posts, so I apologize if this has already been said. But Michigan is in fact a proper usage clause state. You have to use the seat according to the manufacturers specifications, and no seat on the market allows FF before a year. So yes, it is illegal to FF before a year in Michigan.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I can appreciate your passion, but do people really expect the clerks at Babies R Us to be carseat experts?

Yes. Like they expect Best Buy clerks to be computer experts and bookstore clerks to be able to identify the book with a red cover about a man who had a dog, maybe it was a cat.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
Skipping ahead of the rests of posts, so I apologize if this has already been said. But Michigan is in fact a proper usage clause state. You have to use the seat according to the manufacturers specifications

Ouch! Does that mean you have to turn kids FF when their legs start to bend like it says in some manuals?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Yes. Like they expect Best Buy clerks to be computer experts and bookstore clerks to be able to identify the book with a red cover about a man who had a dog, maybe it was a cat.

Well.. just because people have unrealistic expectations of you.. doesn't mean you have to live up to them.


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