# modesty and teens....



## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

hi, I have to make this short as all the kiddos are up....but I need to ask.....

I do NOT follow any modesty guidelines for dressing for religous reasons. I have since I have gotten older begun to dress and feel more appropriate in modest (or more modest) dress. I have a niece living with me and she is 12. I have over the last year or so become increasingly uncomfortable with the way she dresses (or maybe its the clothes others buy her....i think.) and I am looking for some input here.

Do any of you out there have guidelines for modest dressing for your teen girls? My niece is fighting me tooth and nail.....but for my own reasons.....I feel more comfortable if she were dressing more modestly. I have made several requests of her which she follows....but not happily. Next year we will be homeschooling.....and I think it might be easeir. I have guidelines for my boys as well......but well...they're boys. No underwear hanging out....no running around the house in your undies....I mean , hey....there are young ladies here....and I feel that modesty is important.

I guess what I am getting at is the need to hear some of you mamas input on how you deal with modesty in a young lady reliously and non religiously.

Please do not bash me here.....I realize some of my discomfort is my own stuff....but I am doing the best I can.....and would just like a little support and someone to tell me how they do things....
thanks, christine


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## midwifetx (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm sure we'll receive a lot of heat for being on the side of even having rules about clothing, but I'll strike out in support here. I personally feel that modest clothing helps young people maintain a respect for the power and value of their own bodies.







: I want to encourage them to know that who they are is the most important thing, and encouraging children to wear revealing clothing, IMO, is not the best way to do that. Helping them make good decisions in choosing clothing that is attractive and compliments their body shape and coloring is part of that.

I have three daughters and one son. My rule about clothing is simple: We dress in a manner that shows that we respect our own bodies. My children know that we choose certain colors to wear based on what looks good with our skin/hair/eyes and they know that we cover our bodies. I don't have a laundry list of "don't" that I spew, but their wardrobes do not include midriff baring shirts or pants so low that they would have to shave their pubic hair down to wear them, they don't include pants that are painted on their bodies, they don't include underware exposure in any fashion for girls or the boy....well, it is TX and some layering of tanktops occasionally allows a brastrap to show. It's hot here. Mostly we buy the kind of tanktops that have thicker straps, but occasionally not.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Luckily, my 13yo has tasteful taste, so it's easy. She prefers longer shorts, tanks that allow her to wear a bra w/ straps always showing or tanks with a built-in bra. (She's not big, but has a nice figure.) She does wear bikinis swimming. But she's not into the belly shirts, lots of make-up, stuff that makes her look trashy.

As for modesty at home, she's perfectly comfortable walking around in shorter shorts and a bra as long as it's only her brother and myself at home. Similarly, my son (15) is fine with walking around in boxer briefs and a tshirt when it's just the three of us. They change in private (well, she'll change in front of me).


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

thank you midwifetx.....i appreciate hearing the side of someone who supports general modesty. seems so many young ladies let so much hang out......


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I am very much disturbed by young girls dressing like little hoochy mamas at such a young age.

I may differ from you about the definition of "modesty" though. I'm not sure what you mean, but if you are talking about long conservative dresses only, then I am different than that.

I like some trendy clothes, some of which might not be completely "modest" but I like them for women, not "girls."

I wish that young girls weren't encouraged to be sexually "alluring" at such a young age. Let kids be kids. They already grow up so fast.


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## midwifetx (Mar 16, 2005)

Karina,

That's really what I'm talking about. We avoid clothing that would make our children look like Bratz dolls...or even Barbie Dolls for that matter, but we're not a drop-waist-dress family.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We don't have any rules about clothing. You won't get any "flames" from me about it, but it's not something I can personally relate to.

Of course not having rules about it doesn't mean I haven't spent time talking about clothing, social attitudes toward different looks, assumptions, self respect and respect for others, creative expression, and etc. My Dd wears halter tops, mini skirts, and short shorts. She wears sweaters, button up shirts, long skirts, and pretty dresses. She wears cargo shorts, fingerless gloves, and t-shirts. What's most important to me is that she's dressing according to what she wants, not according to what she thinks other people (esp boys) like to see her in.







It's a confusing world as far as media and mainstream attitudes about sex/appearance go, so my focus is more about helping her feel strong and healthy in whatever she wears & that her choices are about her.

If I ever have an issue with something she's wearing I respectfully tell her, and because she knows that I am never out to just rain on her parade or be a nag, she respectfully hears me out and gives it some real thought. As for being in underwear and such...that's an issue of respect for others. We don't want to make people uncomfortable. Dd sometimes will come downstairs in her night shirt and underwear to get some water or whatever, and I think that's just fine. Ds prefers to not be undressed around others and we respect that as well. We don't think it's automatically bad or inappropriate for girls and boys to see each other in various forms of undress. A boy shirtless, especially in the summer, is no big deal at all. A girl in a sports bra and shorts... not a crisis in my book.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Once again, UnschoolnMa, I'm really loving your articulation!

Especially this part ~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
It's a confusing world as far as media and mainstream attitudes about sex/appearance go, so my focus is more about helping her feel strong and healthy in whatever she wears & that her choices are about her.


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## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midwifetx* 
I don't have a laundry list of "don't" that I spew, but their wardrobes do not include midriff baring shirts or pants so low that they would have to shave their pubic hair down to wear them ... they don't include underware exposure in any fashion ... some layering of tanktops occasionally allows a brastrap to show.

DH and I agreed on parameters very much like those quoted above for DD.

Pre-teen girls start to push the edges of acceptable behavior and that's normal. And, so is you saying "no" to clothing that may put forth negative messages about self-respect and intentions. Mama, trust your judgment.

DH or I would be certain to look DD over before she left for school or went out with friends. We weren't obvious about it, but we watched and, if she went over the line, we pulled rank. Sure, there was complaining. But, so what?

I'd treat DD to very trendy or stylish clothing from time-to-time. These pieces maintained modesty and, at the same time, were eye-catching and quality. Her peers regarded her as having style (they used "cooler" words than that - but, I'm getting of an age when my memory fails this late in the evening







). I think doing this allowed DD to channel her desire to make a statement with her clothing to a positive once.


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## tonique (May 24, 2007)

Ever since dd [13] was a baby, we dressed her like a doll and since some time she wanted to dress on her own.. we always go shopping together and she knows where to set the limit... by "modest" you mean, not too mini skirt? anyway dd loves to wear long pants with simple top...


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## rbriansgirl (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I wish that young girls weren't encouraged to be sexually "alluring" at such a young age. Let kids be kids. They already grow up so fast.

I totally agree. We all know that different clothes make you feel different. When we wear frumpy clothes we feel frumpy, when we wear nicer clothes we feel better about ourselves. I don't think children should wear clothes that makes them sexy. Especially in school it isn't healthy to them and it doesn't give them the kind of respect that they deserve from their peers and those around them.


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## antannie (Jul 5, 2006)

our ideas are in tune with midwifetx. Not religious, not prudish and don't believe having dress rules for our dd violates her personal freedom. I thnk media and corporate interests push a certain sleazy style of dress on girls nowadays and we don't buy into that stuff. We think that girls too young to understand the message their clothes give still need guidance to dress. We know who will get blamed if a girl with her thong underwear and belly showing is sexually assaulted or called names. Fortunately our school expects respectful dress.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I wish that young girls weren't encouraged to be sexually "alluring" at such a young age. Let kids be kids. They already grow up so fast.


I wish the same thing, but I also don't see my wish automatically appealing to my curious child who is exposed to culture and does not live in a vacuum.

Not that I am a 'permissive' parent who sees her as the one who runs the show, but I also do not put _myself_ in a position to run the show.

I give my dd what I call the "running commentary" on observations and experiences I've had and watched others have ~ then let her decide for herself about the cause-and-effect role of clothing in her life. I figure it serves her better to learn these things while still close to mama than when she's all grown up and further away from me.

Even more, I love that we have no struggle around these things. . that I am free to trust her and the most interesting thing I've noticed about that is that the choices she makes are consistently ones that I would have hoped she would make. Truly amazing.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Outside of school, my dd can pretty much wear whatever she wants. School though, is to focus on your studies. I think it helps to dress in clothes that cover and fit well. She and I have settled her into a look that is slightly preppy with polo shirts, blue jeans and capri pants. If she wears a top that is cut more revealing, she will wear a cami underneath. This prevents her from feeling over exposed to the world. We will buy the occasional trendy item if it isn't too "sexy". Mind you, my dd is 13. There's time to be sexy looking at a later age.


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

thanks to all who responded....I was feeling like maybe my desire for my girls to be more modest without following a totally modest dress regime was weird.....I'm sometimes not sure if I know how to parent teen girls....
Even though my niece is NOT my daughter , I feel responsible for making sure she makes appropriate choices.....that goes for also teaching her modesty and appropriate behavior becoming of a young lady. How to sit, how to dress and how to behave. I hope I am not WAY off the mark. I know some mamas here are more permissive and some are not. I suppose I was hoping to just see that I am not an oddball. That there are other families who feel like I do. I think the sexualization of children in our culture is horrible. I feel like I am already starting the same thing with my 5 year old.....she sees stuff on tv and wants to walk, talk and dress that way. I am frustrated. But I am sticking to my guns. No bellies, no butts hanging out , no revealing blouses or tops, and nothing see thru, no panties hanging out....My niece doesn't really understand...and she gets irratated...but It is MY house.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Really for right now, fashion should be your friend.

The "in" styles involve layers and layers of t-shirts. Looooong tops in baby doll fashion (with an extra tank top under making the top not low cut). NO belly baring. And leggings under short skirts with ballet flats.

These styles have just come "in" and allow a tween girl to dress cute and stylishly without looking imodest.

I mean look at what Ambercromie kids is showing this year. http://www.abercrombiekids.com/webap...-1_12156_12103

And Ambercrombie is nitorious for showing overly sexualized children's clothes. This year its simply not so much in fashion.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

Does she want to be a young lady? Does she see herself that way?


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

um....I don't know what you're getting at....but I suppose I would like for her to behave modestly. I guess whether that is a young lady or .....
I would like it that she not dress or act in way that is over sexualized. being a teen or tween is hard enough, I feel that I am guiding her through this process and hopefully in the end when she is grown she will still behave in a fashion that is modest and not go flashing her goods all over town(as her aunts and friends do....







)


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

I'm just curious about how she sees herself. I think you may be conflating several separate issues.

I don't have teens yet, but I do remember being one, and being pushed pushed pushed by my mom to be a 'young lady' and act like one, sit right, don't be too forward with boys, and I hated every minute of it. I actually tend to favor modest dress for my own reasons, but I have never been interested in being any sort of lady. As a teen I got into wearing a lot of stuff, both revealing and just plain tacky, that I might not have if I'd simply been allowed to be who I was without a lecture for every little thing that didn't fit somebody else's idea of what a girl was supposed to be like.

I think it would be wise to try and get inside your niece's head and find out why she wants to dress a certain way before you start laying down the law. It might also be worthwhile to examine your own ideas and what might underlie them.


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## primal mom (Apr 14, 2002)

Although I don't have teens yet, I do have two sons and I teach high school. I do have stricter than the norm standards for me and mine. I don't insist on dresses at all times, but I do make sure that my clothing presents me in the most dignified and non-objectified manner possible. I don't want people to focus on my body rather than my face or the other parts that are me like my ideas, words, mind, values, etc. I wear my shirts with a higher neckline and no sleeveless tops. I do wear pants, but they are a modest fit. I don't wear anything that reveals my knees, and I prefer to have at least a 3/4 sleeve. But, IMO, modesty is about more than just the types of clothing that are worn. It is also the way I speak, act, etc. I could be dressed covered head to toe, and still be behaving immodestly in speaking harshly, vulgarly or in a way that lacked dignity. I believe that we are all created in the image of God. It is an honor and duty to present that image respectfully on my part and in a way that doesn't elicit disrespect from others (if I can help it). This belief, BTW, informs all of my morals. If everyone is created in the image of God, harming another person, behaving rudely, lying, stealing, etc. become actions that bring dishonor to God.

Remembering my own years as a teen girl, I now can't understand wanting to dress in a way to advertise parts of me - cute butt, nice breasts, nice curves. I can see now that even if I was dressing that way to feel more attractive, that the kind of attention I was creating was not aimed at me the complete person. Those who saw me never once looked at my short shorts or tight shirt and said, "My what an intelligent, creative young woman!" Even if they had extreme control of body and mind, I am sure that their first thoughts of me were completely physical in nature.

I have no problems with sexuality or sensuality or beauty, but I no longer want to display that for just anyone as a freebie. Mine is more valuable than that. If I were very wealthy, I wouldn't display that money and what I spent it on for the whole world to see. How much more valuable am I! I am trying to teach my sons (now 7 and 2) to try to remember these values for themselves and for any potential mates when they are grown.


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## smillerhouse (Aug 5, 2006)

I aim with my 14 year old dd to have her choose HER style. I do beleive she is really more moset than the average but the past year we have been dealing with major peer pressure. She at times thinks it is "cool" to look like she is 18. I choose my values and as pps have shared, I want it to come from HER.I want her clothng to be an expression of HER style. I don't want to engage in a lot of power stuggles that are needless. We did a shopping trip a few months ago and she picked out really bright colored outfits from mainly Forever 21. I have always tried to support HER style and expression. As pps have shared, I feel the pressure to conform to highly sexualized image is very strong. Like pps have shared, I feel it is about self-respect. I have always tried to support LIVING, LOVING and JOY over the mainstream superficial and consumerist portayals of beauty. I want her to enjoy moving her body,living life to the fullest over merely passively living up to some superfical beauty standard imposed on her to feel Ok and "cool".
I dress simply and plainly.
I don't like that "cool" is sexualized. I have seen my daughter many times choose the more modest path. For example, at volleyball proatice, most of the othr girls took off their tops and she did not.
Right now, it is more in certain peer situaitons where she will dress in ways that I don't think are really positive. I won't let her out of the house if cleavage is showing. She mostly wears jeans . My goal is for her to "own " it. I don't want to be the clothing police. I have to remember that she is 14 and gets to grow and choose her style. At this current age and stage, it is very important to be very unlike me. I respect this. I also though, as pps have shared, want to gently guide her to what is healthy,strong,self loving and self respecting. Sallie


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

I feel like i'm not really able to answer in the way i feel I need to because the kiddos are being really needy.
suffice to say....I would like for her to be a good person, a modest person and behave in a way which is not overtly sexual like I see her friends doing. I want her to be a decent moral human being....not just woman or young lady. I suppose boys do get off a tad easier...but I DO give my boys a lot of talk about how to treat a lady, young woman, girl. I think that she IS a young lady....whether or not she WANTS to be one....well.....I don't know. Its mostly a matter of in my house I like modest dressing for women and girls and my men don't dance around in their undershorts. I guess its just me....its just the way I feel about things....


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
Even though my niece is NOT my daughter , I feel responsible for making sure she makes appropriate choices.....that goes for also teaching her modesty and appropriate behavior becoming of a young lady. How to sit, how to dress and how to behave.

 The potential problem with that is that those things may not be as important to her as they are to you. The stereotypical "young lady" stuff is sort of enforced femininity, and it may not be her "thing". It might be an easier path if you try to convey why you value modesty for all people, not just females. (This of course assumes that you do value modesty for men as well.) I'd give her some space to figure out who she is in all of this.

Quote:

My niece doesn't really understand...and she gets irratated...but It is MY house.
It is your house, true enough. (Does she live with you? If so, is it her house too?) It is her body no doubt. I think you can guide without being really heavy handed.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

there are times when i would say no to my girls clothing - i haven't had to so far though but if they were wearing something really overtly sexual i would. i wouldn't approve of stilletos and a micro mini with a bra top or something in public







i'm pretty relaxed though so maybe i'm not one to respond to this.

i'm not sure how to say what i want. i think that maybe you could sit down with your niece, discuss your own values of dress with her, your own perceptions of sexuality and dress and start a dialogue about that. that would open doors for honest, two way communication as opposed to you telling her what to wear.

good luck, i hope you find a happy medium


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## MommaLyon (Apr 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midwifetx* 
. I personally feel that modest clothing helps young people maintain a respect for the power and value of their own bodies.







: I want to encourage them to know that who they are is the most important thing, and encouraging children to wear revealing clothing, IMO, is not the best way to do that. Helping them make good decisions in choosing clothing that is attractive and compliments their body shape and coloring is part of that.
My rule about clothing is simple: We dress in a manner that shows that we respect our own bodies.









:


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

I'm wondering exactly what clothes your niece wants to wear that you object to. There is such a variety these days!

My dd is too little to give me this kind of issue yet, but I know the deal at my oldest son's middle school: you can't show your butt, belly, or breasts. End of story. That seems reasonable to me. Especially since, as another poster said, you can dress very fashionably these days without baring all.

I teach my boys that they have to dress in a way that's respectful to the people they'll be around. So, they can wear torn jeans and ugly tee shirts out with their friends, because it's accepted. But they can't wear them to Nana's for dinner, where it sends a disrespectful message to another generation. It's all about respecting yourself and other people, and I think she's lucky to have you helping her with that.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

How does your dn feel about her body? Is she happy and confident in her skin?

I've been thinking about your question and thinking back to my teens when I wore large shirts and baggy jumpers which totally swamped my petite frame and I was very reluctant for anyone to see the shape of my body. I am still only 5'0" and still petite with a less than AA bust when not breastfeeding but I have so much more confidence about my body now and feel comfortable in my skin.

When I used to cover myself I knew that I didn't meet the ideal I saw everywhere. Everyone around me was growing but I didn't. I think that I felt like I needed to hide myself because I didn't look how other girls did. I was always known for being clever and funny; not for being good looking or attractive.

It has taken me years to feel how I do now and I love wearing clothes that flatter my shape. I never wear anything loose, excessively long or baggy not even to work.

If your niece is full of confidence in the way she looks and dresses please consider that any criticism of her looks may destroy that confidence at a vulnerable time in her life when she is comparing herself to others and hoping to fit in. Tell her she is gorgeous and looks fantastic not sow a seed of doubt or shame.

My husband tells me I am gorgeous, funny and clever and I know its true but for years I doubted it.


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## Merripan (May 31, 2007)

Fairly new here, and am enjoying what I read. I'm due in late January and this is my first.

I remember my mother raising me when it was "uncool" to nurse, to say yes to your child, and to allow the freedom of choice about things. Personally, I think she did a fine job of raising me to be the best person I could be, with a good head on my shoulders.

A lot of what she did I'm taking with me and keeping. She nursed me until I was between 2 and 3, when I finally decided that I didn't want the boob anymore, and instead wanted "big people" food. She chose to say yes when I wanted to pick out my own clothes (within reason based on season), and gave me options on which one to pick if I couldn't decide. She gave me the ability to understand that I could try something on the dinner table, and didn't have to eat it all, just had to try a little bit. And she made me understand that it was Mom and Dad who made the rules in the house, and they were reasonable, but would be followed - unless I could sit down with reasonable, calm arguments about change.

I will most likely have small assorted fruit thrown at me for saying this,







: but I have always felt that, while our children share our homes and our lives, they still need limits and lines - as my mother used to say, "This is not a democracy, it's a benevolant dictatorship". Parents make the home safe and secure by not only being there, but setting reasonable boundaries for children to learn from, and follow. They learn how to deal with the "outside" world by learning how to follow the rules at home.

My parents rules were very simple for living in the house:
A. Do your best in school, and GO to school every day unless you're sick.
B. If you aren't going to school, then you need to have a job.
C. If you don't have a job, then you need to do extra chores around the house to help out.
D. If you aren't doing any of the above, you are not being a productive member of this small society we call home, and you can find someplace else to live.

I don't believe that it was harsh at all, though my older sister and brother felt that it was (they were from a previous marriage of my mother's). After I moved out of my parent's home, I lived with other people and their children. While they felt differently about disciplining their children than my mother did, they still had the limits set in place - it's reasonable to do so.









I guess I'm a product of the times, but I believe that setting clothing limits is the LEAST one could worry about for a teenager... It's something that can, at least, be controlled by what is being purchased... 

~Merripan


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## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

Wile I agree with HomeschoolnMama and May May to a point I realy think that darkpear makes an excellent point with regard to being pushed pushed pushed to be a 'young lady' (or, as see it) how the ulra conservative side of society, for there own reasons pushes the idea of what 'young lady' should be like, act like, sit like.
We have certain rules which EVERYBODY, male and female, child and adult follows with regard to dress and as darkpear said, I too have had to examine my own ideas and what might underlie them.
I am non-religious and thus do not dress according to religious beliefs. But as far as my rules go.
No-one needs to see the top half of anyone elses rear when they bend over.
Dressing should be according to the climate. A strappy top mini-skirt and sandals in January makes as little sense as an overcoat in July.
I have no problem with any of my family changing their clothes in my presence but equally, I have no problem if someone feels more comfortable changing in private.
I do NOT have any rules with regard to dresses/skirts only, for girls. For me personally, that is simply sexist.
Incidentally, while on a personal level I have no problem with nudity, I dress conservatively for work. Fitted trousers, with shirts or short-sleeved polo shirts but I wear pretty underwear underneath (which of course no-one need no about but me 
Modesty for me, is about how I think, feel and behave.
A woman can behave immorally even if covered from head to two and another could behave in a moral way, even in a bikini (I've never worn a bikini myself - way too curvy).
Similarly. I could be looking at and thinking about a man in a very sexual way even if he was fully covered from neck to toe. But regardlss of my thoughts, I cannot expect the man in question to take responsibility for the immorality in my own mind.

I think part of the reason that tweens and teens have clothing issues is not how they feel in their clothes, but how they feel in their skin so to speak - being unhappy with the way their body feels, looks and how it is developing, their body being a negative experience for them, so to speak - due sometimes to weight, skin or hair problems.
But for me there are waaaay bigger battles in life without making clothes into one and remember, after a certain point, unless you are prepared to follow your kids 24X7, they will manage to wear some of what they want even if it means decieving their parents to do so.
I remember a school friend of mine, at 14, leaving her own house in the very conservative style of clothes her parents tried to insist on, coming to mine, borrowing my tops and my lipstick (the latter of which I requested my Mum to buy for me and then promptly never used!) and changing again before we went out.
"Out" being the local YC or into town window shopping.
I reckon, if you can give kids good reasonable values, the self confidence to be their own person and the self esteem to knw their own mind, you can't go far wrong.


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## Ruth S (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
Fairly new here, and am enjoying what I read. I'm due in late January and this is my first.

She chose to say yes when I wanted to pick out my own clothes (within reason based on season), and gave me options on which one to pick if I couldn't decide. She gave me the ability to understand that I could try something on the dinner table, and didn't have to eat it all, just had to try a little bit. And she made me understand that it was Mom and Dad who made the rules in the house, and they were reasonable, but would be followed - unless I could sit down with reasonable, calm arguments about change.

I will most likely have small assorted fruit thrown at me for saying this,







: but I have always felt that, while our children share our homes and our lives, they still need limits and lines - as my mother used to say, "This is not a democracy, it's a benevolant dictatorship". Parents make the home safe and secure by not only being there, but setting reasonable boundaries for children to learn from, and follow. They learn how to deal with the "outside" world by learning how to follow the rules at home.

~Merripan

Thank you for saying this! I'm a strong believer in kids needing boundaries and parents being the boss while they pay the bills etc. Sometimes it seems that I'm the only parent not trying to be my kids' best friend!

Your comments make me feel good about the way I parent, because you see the value of how you were raised before you have become a parent yourself. I'm not throwing fruit at you -- I'm offering you a bowl of delicious Oregon strawberries as a thank you!


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I believe in modest clothing. But I also believe in letting girls make their own choices. The most important thing for you to do is to set a good example yourself. Make sure you wear the kinds of clothes you would expect her to. I think it's also reasonable to refuse to buy clothes for her that you find unaccetable. If she gets them elsewhere, then she gets them elsewhere.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth S* 
Thank you for saying this! I'm a strong believer in kids needing boundaries and parents being the boss while they pay the bills etc. Sometimes it seems that I'm the only parent not trying to be my kids' best friend!

 I think it's possible to be both a close friend type parent and a trusted, caretaking, rolemodel. Everyone has boundaries (parents included!) and we treat each other with an equal level of respect that isn't based on age.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adastra* 
I'm wondering exactly what clothes your niece wants to wear that you object to.

I am too. My oldest is only 10 but this isn't an issue for us. I really don't know if it isn't an issue because my DD has good sense, or because I'm very mellow. I buy all her clothes and we shop together, so I have more input that you do with you neice, but my DD is a bit chubby, so she is used to me discussing with her what looks good on her. If I told her that something didn't look good, she would take my word for it and try on something else, but I don't mind if she wears spag. straps, short skorts, etc. just so long as it fits well and works for her. I'm used to seeing her skin -- she spends most of her time in swim suits -- so all clothes cover more!









Would it be possible to discuss with whoever is buying your DN clothes that may be gift certificates would work better so she could try the clothes on and make her own choices? I think that giving kids as much real control over their lives as possible is a good thing, and most girls this age LIKE to shop for clothes, and it would make it easier for you to have input. Letting her try on a variety of clothes and discussing them could be a lot of fun.

I can see if these clothes are gifts from people who are important to her that telling her that you don't think they look very good could be a VERY emotionally loaded thing to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
It is your house, true enough. (Does she live with you? If so, is it her house too?) It is her body no doubt. I think you can guide without being really heavy handed.









I agree. I was raised with the whole "my house my rules" line and I thought it was complete nonsense. If it wasn't my home, then I was homeless. I left home when I was still a teen, so I guess being told over and over than it wasn't my home and I had no say eventually sunk in.

It is possible to provide a child with loving guidance without laying down the law.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Wow, that is really sad, Linda on the move. I can really get how that sank in.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
It is possible to provide a child with loving guidance without laying down the law.


I believe that it absolutely is possible.

I'm reading all these posts about not being a friend to one's child. And when I went within to find my truth, I could just see no reason _not_ to be my child's friend.

For those of you who don't identify as their child's friend ~ would you be willing to elaborate? I'd like to understand. It couldn't be because you don't believe that friends have the power to influence, surely, based on what I read of your thoughts on their peer friends' influences.

Part of my definition of the word friend is 'modeling' and my behavior is my business. That is all I can see to do that resembles what you're calling 'guide' because where they're heading in life is their business.


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## Ruth S (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
For those of you who don't identify as their child's friend ~ would you be willing to elaborate? I'd like to understand. It couldn't be because you don't believe that friends have the power to influence, surely, based on what I read of your thoughts on their peer friends' influences.

Part of my definition of the word friend is 'modeling' and my behavior is my business. That is all I can see to do that resembles what you're calling 'guide' because where they're heading in life is their business.

I do consider myself to be my daughter's friend, and much of the time we have a good close relationship. What I meant about not being my daughter's "best" friend (and this was not at all aimed at fellow posters, rather, the world out there beyond Mothering forums), was that I believe there is a place in a child's life for a parent/adult who provides guidance and boundaries -- best friends do not tend to do this. This is why spiritual leaders, mentors, parents are sought out to play a role in many people's lives long after we reach maturity. Unfortunately, today's world reflects a love affair with instant gratification, together with lack of personal responsibility, self involvement and poor morals. At its worst this results in Girls Gone Wild, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan -- whose _mother_ used to go out partying and drinking with her, before she was even of legal age.

I like the Mothering boards because I find myself surrounded by like minded people more often than not, despite some of the contentious "arguments" we get into







. I find it hard enough sometimes to stand up for my own values in today's world -- my impressionable and easily influenced teenager needs help from me to learn her way (and yes, I allow her to learn from her mistakes, and I do give her freedoms that my own parents would never have given me) and gain a foundation of good values and practices.


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## Merripan (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth S* 
Thank you for saying this! I'm a strong believer in kids needing boundaries and parents being the boss while they pay the bills etc. Sometimes it seems that I'm the only parent not trying to be my kids' best friend!

You are very welcome. I see a lot of people on the boards here feeling very much as though how they were raised was "wrong". Perhaps it was wrong for them, but no child comes with a manual and each child is different and needs different guidence depending on their personality.

That being said, however, I believe that parents are there first and foremost to be the leader and guide to the world. Being friends with your kids is great, but it takes a back seat to teaching them what is expected of them in society.

As for others who have stated that they didn't agree with the "My house, My rules" situation at home, and ended up leaving the situation because they didn't agree with it - well, I can only say that I'm sorry you felt you had to get away from the situation rather than discuss it rationally with your parents. It didn't help either your parents OR you in the long run. I had a "My house, My rules" home to grow up in, and I feel I came out just fine. My sister didn't like the idea, and ended up running away and living on the streets, because she refused to come up with a rational argument to have change that would benefit everyone. To this day, my sister is one of the most spoiled humans on this planet, and uses our mother's guilt at "forcing" her daughter out into the streets as a way to get everything she wants from Mom.

Most parents, when allowed the chance to discuss the situation rationally, with positive arguments and suggestions for change, will listen and discuss what options can be given to make said changes for the betterment of the household.

~M


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## Merripan (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
I'm reading all these posts about not being a friend to one's child. And when I went within to find my truth, I could just see no reason _not_ to be my child's friend.

For those of you who don't identify as their child's friend ~ would you be willing to elaborate? I'd like to understand. It couldn't be because you don't believe that friends have the power to influence, surely, based on what I read of your thoughts on their peer friends' influences.

I'm not saying that you cannot be your child's friend. However, there has to be a line between being your child's parent and being your child's friend. You need to make the distinction based on the situation. Friends do not set boundaries and rules at home. Friends do not enforce consequences when said boundaries are broken. Most importantly, friends do not always set positive examples of how to survive in the world.

On the other hand, a parent DOES do those things. In fact, that's really what a parent is THERE for.

Being a friend to your child means that you also know when it's time to be a parent, and following through with it.

~M


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
As for others who have stated that they didn't agree with the "My house, My rules" situation at home, and ended up leaving the situation because they didn't agree with it - well, I can only say that I'm sorry you felt you had to get away from the situation rather than discuss it rationally with your parents. It didn't help either your parents OR you in the long run.

Most parents, when allowed the chance to discuss the situation rationally, with positive arguments and suggestions for change, will listen and discuss what options can be given to make said changes for the betterment of the household.


(My selection)

IME the majority of parents with the 'My house, My rules' attitude to parenting are not the type of parents to enter into respectful and rational discussion with a child.

Personally I think that pulling the 'I pay the bills' thing is totally unfair to children who have absolutely no other choices about where they live as they have no earning power.

If you use these arguments you are essentially telling your child that they have no power and that you have it all. The discussions on this thread around control and validation for that control make me uncomfortable - especially over something so personal as form of dress.

Some might say that this is how parenting should be but although I am long way from consensual living as discussed at length over on GD, I do believe that being my children's critical friend is a much more heathy way to move forward together than any form of dictatorship; benign, benevolent or malevolent.

If wearing spaghetti strap tops is already into the disrespectful zone of the contiuum and requires correction then I wonder where other teen challenges lie and how they will be dealt with.


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## Merripan (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
IME the majority of parents with the 'My house, My rules' attitude to parenting are not the type of parents to enter into respectful and rational discussion with a child.

I can't answer to any other situations other than my own and those I've witnessed while living with friends. My parents did have the "My house, My rules" situation - however, they always had time to listen to me if I was willing to come to them with a reasonable way to change the situation regarding most anything - curfews, allowance, clothing, bedtimes - whatever. My friends as well have the "My house, My rules" situation. Again, they make time to listen to their teens if they had valid and reasonable changes to suggest. Perhaps these are exceptions, but I am going to follow the same situation in my home as well. I came out fine, and my friends teens are doing very well - well-adjusted, and quite confident in themselves.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
Personally I think that pulling the 'I pay the bills' thing is totally unfair to children who have absolutely no other choices about where they live as they have no earning power.

First of all, the "I pay the bills" argument is one that, by the time a parent would feel the need to play, the child is normally old enough to have a paper route, and the argument is usually about whether they can have money to spend for [insert whatever stuff here]. If you are using this argument prior to the point where a child can understand the issue at hand, and the reason why such an argument may (or may not) be valid, then you need some counselling. Obviously, a 5 year old is NOT going to understand said argument.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
If you use these arguments you are essentially telling your child that they have no power and that you have it all. The discussions on this thread around control and validation for that control make me uncomfortable - especially over something so personal as form of dress.

There is a thin line between "boundary" and "control" - some people feel that it is the same thing. It is not. A boundary is something which is fluid, which bends when needed, and moves when necessary - when the situation needs it to. Control is rigid, it is un-moving, un-wavering, and unrelentless. It does not see when a compromise needs to be made. Forms of dress should fall under the idea of boundary - make reasonable compromises based on what is acceptable for age, modesty, and location.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
I do believe that being my children's critical friend is a much more heathy way to move forward together than any form of dictatorship; benign, benevolent or malevolent.

That is certainly your choice. As I said, I have seen what has worked in my family, and what hasn't. Each child, as I said before, is different, and requires different things to raise them successfully. I will take what I have seen work, and temper it with my own learning knowledge of my child and its needs - and I will go from there.

~M


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
Being friends with your kids is great, but it takes a back seat to teaching them what is expected of them in society.

 It's true that I want to teach them things, and it's true that they teach me things as well. I also think it's worth noting that much of what society expects and values isn't in line with what I value. I talk to my kids about why I feel that way.







Nothing has ever had to take a back seat for us.

Quote:

As for others who have stated that they didn't agree with the "My house, My rules" situation at home, and ended up leaving the situation because they didn't agree with it - well, I can only say that I'm sorry you felt you had to get away from the situation rather than discuss it rationally with your parents. It didn't help either your parents OR you in the long run.
 Actually my standing up for myself and getting away for awhile did help, although not immedietly. If a parent has already decided that it's their way or the highway that leaves kids with just two choices. Sometimes the highway is easier to live with.







I prefer to live in a household that respects each person as an equal member, and to have a dialogue and relationship with my kids that allows for them to tell me anything...including when they think I am mistaken or in the wrong, without them worrying about me telling them that "this is my house so deal with it".


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
Friends do not set boundaries and rules at home. Friends do not enforce consequences when said boundaries are broken. Most importantly, friends do not always set positive examples of how to survive in the world.

 I think every relationship that exists involves boundaries. I have different boundaries with my husband than I do with my sister-in-law, and I have different boundaries with my best friend than I do with a casual aquaintance...but they are there just the same.









We aren't really a consequences enforcing type of family so I can't really speak to that end of things. Positive and negative examples are everywhere including often in the home. I surely hope to be a mostly positive example to my kids, but I know there's some negative in there too. It seems that with the "my house, my rules" approach I would be saying "I get to make the rules because my voice matters more than yours." and that's just not all that positive IMO.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I prefer to live in a household that respects each person as an equal member, and to have a dialogue and relationship with my kids that allows for them to tell me anything...including when they think I am mistaken or in the wrong, without them worrying about me telling them that "this is my house so deal with it". [/COLOR][/QUOTE]










Yeah, there are so many variables at play in this thread, it's confusing.







: I would hope that we all value respect and trust and communication as being paramount in any relationship. COntrol can easily backfire.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 

COntrol can easily backfire.









: right from toddlers finally 'released' from their strollers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 

First of all, the "I pay the bills" argument is one that, by the time a parent would feel the need to play, the child is normally old enough to have a paper route, and the argument is usually about whether they can have money to spend for [insert whatever stuff here]. If you are using this argument prior to the point where a child can understand the issue at hand, and the reason why such an argument may (or may not) be valid, then you need some counselling. Obviously, a 5 year old is NOT going to understand said argument.

nak

My 4 yo understands the finer points of affordability and reasonableness of her desires for Charlie and Lola comics her when out shopping for food for the family but I digress...We are talking about teens here and the subject at hand is parental comfortableness with a teen's choice of attire. I don't think that this is a situation where doing a paper round in order to get more power in the ituation is going to make any difference - unless you are suggesting that earning power is related to power and respect in the home.

My 14 yo has not yet been ruined by my choice of being his supportive, caring and questioning mum. I am helping him tease out his own boundaries and find where his needs and wants sit within those of the rest of the family. I can't remember the last time I needed the final say and I believe that natural consequences are plenty powerful enough.

I didn't start off raisig him to obey me at all times and only do what I wanted him to and I'm not raising his brother and sisters that way either. We have always been on the journey alongside each other not head to head. I suppose that if you start out this way the necessary control of teens seems a bit odd.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
As for others who have stated that they didn't agree with the "My house, My rules" situation at home, and ended up leaving the situation because they didn't agree with it - well, I can only say that *I'm sorry you felt you had to get away from the situation rather than discuss it* rationally with your parents.

That was me, and I did my best over and over to discuss it with my parents. It is impossible to have a real discussion with someone who has all the power and feels it is their job to force to do what they feel is right. It is like talking to a dictator.

"My house my rules" ends the discussion. I think it is a complete cop out that parents use when they either don't have good reason for what they are saying, or they know that the child/teen doesn't agree that it is a good reason. Because, honestly, *if you have a real reason for what you saying, then you would be focusing on that reason* -- not the fact that you wield power. If a parent is talking about *why* they feel the child/teen should do something and are open to hearing the child/teen thinks about it, then the power play isn't necessary.

The problem is that when it comes to clothes, a lot of parents don't have a real reason other than "I'm worried about what other people think"







: so when the child/teen says "I don't care what other people think" the parent can't say much back other than "my house my rules." Because, ironically, most parents try over and over again to teach their kids to not care what other people think, so it turns into a quagmire.

Also, it is our job as parents to teach our kids how to make their own choices. Talking about *why* we feel certain things are important in an envirnment where the child/teen can question everything and therefore come to their own conclusion allows them to learn to make their choices. Forcing rules with power leaves them with nothing to draw on once they do leave home.

In other words, is your goal to get her to dress nicely this week, or teach her how to make good choices regarding clothing for the rest of her life? "My house my rules" can accomplish the first goal, but will only get in the way of the second.

Quote:

It didn't help either your parents OR you in the long run.
It *did* help me in the long run.







I have a happy life with a good marriage and great kids. For me, building a good life was only possible by getting far away from my toxic family.

Quote:

Most parents, when allowed the chance to discuss the situation rationally, with positive arguments and suggestions for change, will listen and discuss what options can be given to make said changes for the betterment of the household.
some do, some don't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot*
Some might say that this is how parenting should be but although I am long way from consensual living as discussed at length over on GD, I do believe that being my children's critical friend is a much more heathy way to move forward together than any form of dictatorship; benign, benevolent or malevolent.

Agreed. We are mostly consensual, but I have at times drawn a line with my kids. I can't imagine doing so over clothing, though.

When there is something that I feel strongly about, I explain *why* to my kids which opens the door for conversation. We can discuss if there is another way to reach the same end point, or at least they understand *why*. (for us it is things like you have to rinse your swim suit after swiming or the chorline will eat the fabric, or you really do have to feed the fish you bought or they will die -- stuff like that)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
If a parent has already decided that it's their way or the highway that leaves kids with just two choices. Sometimes the highway is easier to live with.







I prefer to live in a household that respects each person as an equal member, and to have a dialogue and relationship with my kids that allows for them to tell me anything...including when they think I am mistaken or in the wrong, without them worrying about me telling them that "this is my house so deal with it".

Nice post!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
thank you midwifetx.....i appreciate hearing the side of someone who supports general modesty. seems so many young ladies let so much hang out......









I'm totally in agreement! I think that at that age, most teenagers, both boys and girls, don't have sufficient experience either with life or with sexuality to know what they're playing with -- they're basically just listening to their peers and their hormones (and hey, didn't we all?







), but I am so glad you're homeschooling.

Remember, you have the ultimate power: you control the credit card.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Remember, you have the ultimate power: you control the credit card.

Back to square one.
I'm out.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Remember, you have the ultimate power: you control the credit card.


Yes, I control my money. I have my own money, yes, and I use it to buy the things my family wants and needs.

But what does it mean, exactly, to _have_ the money? And how are we defining the word 'control' in this context? The definitions as they stand on this thread have a lot of double meanings, IMO. So let's flesh this out for the sake of clarity.

What if we were to substitute the word 'gun' for 'credit card' in your quote, Meg Murry?

Would it be present in your household for the purpose of supporting harmony or antagonism?

I would think that one who would choose to own a gun would do so for the purpose of supporting their family's harmony by way of defense/protection (as that particular tool can be used), and not for the purpose of creating an internal dichotomy by way of which the 'one who's boss' can wield their power, no?

I can see how either 'gun' or 'money' could be used in similar ways.

Interesting, isn't it?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Remember, you have the ultimate power: you control the credit card.

If I read the OP correctly, these aren't clothes that she is buying, but that other people are giving to the child.

As far as my own family goes, we give our kids a set amount for clothes (in cash) and they get to decide what to buy. Either my Dh or I or both are with them and talk about things, but they make the decision and pay.

Oddly, our kids are actually interested in our input. For some strange reason, they seem to think we have their best interest at heart.


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## flyinglemon (Jun 9, 2007)

I think that there can be reasonable modest expectations for clothes without making it an all-out power struggle. My 15 yr old son wears huge baggy pants and wears them low - ok, fine, I think it looks silly but as long as he wears a shirt that covers him so his underwear doesn't show, that's his choice.

My 13 yr old daughter knows that things that are too tight or too short are going back, no matter who buys them. Beyond that, the choice of style, colour, fabric, and so on are hers. We go shopping together, and often she will choose things that I don't care for - but as long as they are neither tight nor short, that's fine with me.

My own dress style is very modest (long skirts, long shirts) but I don't expect that she has to dress that way. There's a lot of leeway between the way I look and a pole dancer, and she knows where the line is. Often she will come home and say "I was going to buy a skirt I really liked, but I know you'd think it was too short, so I got this one instead". We try to compromise so that she gets things she likes that I can be comfortable with as well.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

How about looking at it this way: I will not force my child or anyone's child (and I assume the OP will not do so either) to wear a particular set of clothes or not wear them. I can only control what I can control. That said, I will not be complicit in buying into (in any sense) the inappropriate eroticization of our children. When the OP's niece is an adult who can afford to buy her own clothing with her own money, what clothing she wears is of course up to her. Reading the post above, (oops!) if it's an issue of other people giving her inappropriate clothing, I honestly don't know what I'd do. If it were appropriate to talk to them straightforwardly and ask them to select more modest duds, I'd prefer that -- I'm not fantastic at making effective, well-placed, subtle suggestions, but if someone else is, of course that would be preferable.

I find this a serious issue. Even apart from dramatic scenarios of rape, molestation, or harrassment that are often brought up in this context, I think women sell themselves short by placing so much undue emphasis on external beauty and sexuality -- and the fact that this emphasis is being placed at younger and younger ages is deeply disturbing to me. We're beyond the era of the nymphette Lolita and well into creepy pedophilia when Abercrombie and Fitch makes thong underwear for six-year-olds (if I remember rightly...anyone recall this??). Bottom line, though, very few children can buy revealing clothing without their parents' consent and cooperation, which I do not believe in giving, regardless of peer pressure (including peer pressure from some MDC mothers). I believe in choice and freedom in many aspects of parenting, but this is one place I think it's important, at least in our family, to draw a line.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Oh sure I agree that I don't get to control what happens in your family or any other family either. This thread is pretty timely for me in a way actually. My Dd recently walked a friend home after a day of day of play in the water. My Dd (13.5) and her friend (11.5) were both in bikinis. A woman saw my daughter and her friend walking and told my daughter to "go home and get some clothes on". My Dd declined, said she was happy in her bikini as it was very warm and they'd been in the water. The woman said my Dd was parading around and that it was indecent exposure. She threatened to call the authorities. Dd told her to "go ahead if you need to." On the way home from her friend's house (we live around the corner... half a block I'd guess?) this woman starts following my Dd home, griping about her swimsuit the entire time. On my front door step this lady goes into how my Dd shouldn't wear her bikini around town because _*she*_ doesn't want _*her*_ daughters to see it, she thinks it's inappropriate, and she thought that my Dd must have been sneaking around to wear it behind my back. Oh my!

I told her that I was totally comfortable with the suit, it was legal for Dd to wear it, Dd makes her own clothing decisions and I am there for any feedback or thoughts, my Dd doesn't have any reason to sneak anything, and that what my child wears isn't going to be dictated by her morals. Thanks for stopping by!

I'd never step into someone else's business that way. But here in this thread, on most threads actually, debate (respectful one would hope) is always a possibility.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry*
I will not force my child or anyone's child (and I assume the OP will not do so either) to wear a particular set of clothes or not wear them. I can only control what I can control. That said, I will not be complicit in buying into (in any sense) the inappropriate eroticization of our children. When the OP's niece is an adult who can afford to buy her own clothing with her own money, what clothing she wears is of course up to her.

So does that mean if the child has money of his/her own (did not come from you) that they are free to buy an article of clothing you don't think is appropriate? Are they free to wear it? Let's say a 13 year old girl has $30 saved up from various sources (Christmas, bday, can refunds, babysitting, paper route). Let's say she buys a tank top or skirt you think is immodest. She should be free to wear it without you making conditions, making her take it back, trying to talk her out of it, etc right? I am just making sure I understood your quote correctly.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
 So does that mean if the child has money of his/her own (did not come from you) that they are free to buy an article of clothing you don't think is appropriate? Are they free to wear it? Let's say a 13 year old girl has $30 saved up from various sources (Christmas, bday, can refunds, babysitting, paper route). Let's say she buys a tank top or skirt you think is immodest. She should be free to wear it without you making conditions, making her take it back, trying to talk her out of it, etc right? I am just making sure I understood your quote correctly.




Aw, rats, I knew someone would ask me this.







Honestly, I genuinely don't know. My daughter is six right now, and so right now, it's easy to persuade her or come to compromise (e.g., that she can wear it at home for dress-up, but not in public). I am about as sure as I can be that it will not be so easy later.

All that I can say is that I don't buy into it and won't subsidize or support it. I'm hoping logic works, but I realize it probably won't. I don't know. I'm not saying I have all the answers.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Aw, rats, I knew someone would ask me this.







Honestly, I genuinely don't know.

All that I can say is that I don't buy into it and won't subsidize or support it. I'm hoping logic works, but I realize it probably won't. I don't know. I'm not saying I have all the answers.









Cool. I think it makes perfect sense to say that we don't have all the answers and that we just aren't sure how that's going to work. I've had plenty of those moments, and I am certain I will have more. You are so not alone!


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I've got a 12 year old dd, and clothes have been a minor issue occasionally.

We go by the guideline that, yes, your body is beautiful, please wear clothes that are comfortable and help others respect your body as much as you respect it.

When she was younger, our guideline was, skin can show if it is okay for someone to touch you there. Are you comfortable with a touch on the arm? Fine, bare your arm. Comfortable with someone touching on the stomach? No? Then cover it up, let them know it is off limits. This worked well in our home.

I also occasionally point out people (discreetly!) and ask what she thinks. I try to do this both with people whose style I feel is appropriate, and those who I feel look too, well, hoochy. I want her to understand that she ultimately can dress how she wants--but your clothes and the way you dress and carry yourself DO affect how others view you. Whether you care one way or another about this, well, that's her can of beans. I try to reinforce that I think she is a creative, intelligent, kind person, and she should carry herself as such.

Overall, she has great sense, and she makes good choices. I have hardly ever forbidden her from wearing something. Occasionally I WILL make her change her clothes--usually it is because something is dirty, though, not because it is inappropriate. And typically I won't even say anything if something is dirty; but if we are going to your uncle's wedding, for example, it is disrespectful of yourself and other to wear the shirt that you spilled coffee on yesterday. While others may not agree with this, this is how it is in our house, and so far our daughters have not had any problem with it.

I agree with the general consensus that you can't FORCE a child to wear what you want them to wear, just like you can't force a kid to think like you do. But you CAN help them understand why you think the way you do, and try to guide them. I can't say it enough, I've been blessed with very reasonable kids. It doesn't mean that she does everything I say and thinks the way I do--what I mean is that when she disagrees with me about clothes, food, ANYTHING, she is able to think about and articulate to me WHY she disagrees, and over the years I have learned to compromise and respect her thought process. The more reasonable the both of us get, the less we seem to disagree on anything.

Perhaps simply sharing with your niece WHY you think the way you do--being completely honest. Saying even "I can't articulate exactly why, but here's a go at it." And then letting her know you are willing to compromise on it. Let her know you would like to hear HER side of the issue, and you want to respect her reasoning AND the guidelines of dress in your household. Not every kid responds well to this, I know; but in general it seems that kids respond better when their help is enlisted rather than when they are simply commanded to do (or not do) something.

Ultimately, though, it IS your house, and you do make the rules. You also can make the exceptions. You are the adult, and you are responsible enough to live with the consequences, whatever they may be.

I think it is great that you are making a thoughtful decision, and are taking care of your niece. I know you will do what is best for both of you.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adastra* 
I'm wondering exactly what clothes your niece wants to wear that you object to. There is such a variety these days!

Me too! Link to a photo, or just a good written description? My assumption of what you mean by "modest" might be different than what you actually mean.

When I was in high school, I had a favorite pair of jeans. Wore them til they had holes and rips in them. Couldn't bear to part with them, and there was a rip under one butt cheek. So I wore them with a pair of light pink printed shorts underneath (so you didn't see my leg/butt, just the shorts). I thought it was great and remember LOVING them. My unofficial adoptive mom wasn't a fan but respected that I loved them and was covering up enough.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth S* 
Sometimes it seems that I'm the only parent not trying to be my kids' best friend!

Your comments make me feel good about the way I parent, because you see the value of how you were raised before you have become a parent yourself.

You aren't the only one; I'm with you!







I see the value in how I was parented too, and specifically try to follow many of the examples my parents set for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
For those of you who don't identify as their child's friend ~ would you be willing to elaborate?

My child has many, many friends - but only two parents. I absolutely respect the power of friendships, and how necessary they are. I am friendly towards my kids of course. I do enjoy doing something one-on-one with my girls. But they aren't my friends; they are my daughters and that is a very special thing.

I guess it comes down to sometimes needing to be seen as the bad guy, being willing to be the recipient of the anger of a kid who feels they've been wronged. I am her parent; it is my job to help her along, but what my 38 years of experience have taught me might be different than what my 10 year old understands, values, etc.

With friends, you each get an equal vote. I want to; you don't. Ok, I guess I will and you won't. But with parent/child, it isn't necessarily the same. I know that there are some families on MDC that really do give everyone an equal vote, and don't force kids into following any rules.

I do have expectations. Rules if you will. There are things that I'm ok with, and things that I'm not. Sometimes my kids understand and agree. Sometimes they think I'm nuts. When I was 12, I would get frustrated with my mom's rules sometimes. Now that I'm an adult with my own kids, I understand just about all of it on a whole new level.

I think being a parent instead of a friend means that you are willing to take the heat for unpopular decisions. Discuss, listen, be respectful - sure. And I try not to make things too structured/strict. Pick your battles as it were.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merripan* 
Being friends with your kids is great, but it takes a back seat to teaching them what is expected of them in society.

See, there you are in 23 words covering what I took too long to say.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyinglemon* 
I think that there can be reasonable modest expectations for clothes without making it an all-out power struggle. My 15 yr old son wears huge baggy pants and wears them low - ok, fine, I think it looks silly but as long as he wears a shirt that covers him so his underwear doesn't show, that's his choice.
We try to compromise so that she gets things she likes that I can be comfortable with as well.

One, I have seen the baggy pants with boxers showing. I think it looks silly, but I can't see why it is an issue. Why does the shirt have to cover up the underwear really? His butt wouldn't show either way, right? How is boxer fabric all that much different from lightweight tee shirts?
And two, I agree on the compromising with dd part. This is what dd1 (almost 11) and I do also. She likes clothing from Limited 2. I think some of it is just fine, and other stuff is really not classy in any way.

One rule I have stuck to so far is no words on the butt of your pants/shorts/underwear. We've seen "hottie" on the butt of shorts. I'm sorry, not on my 10 year old.... She thinks I'm awful, but as liberal as I consider myself, I don't think that is going to fly at my house with young girls. If she were 17, and could get by without her dad seeing it, I might feel differently.

They also have thongs and underwear with no fabric on the sides, just string ties. In sizes that would fit my 10 year old! I just can't go there.

I think a lot of it (for me) has to do with age/experience/maturity of the kid. When my kids are young, I have a little more control over what they eat, wear, etc. because I am buying it. As they get bigger, they'll be places without me. I still wouldn't be ok with them using their own money to buy things that are really over the line, but I hope that as they are old enough to want such things, they'd also be old enough to understand a little more about the consequences.

I also think we should remember what it felt like to be a teenage girl. To begin to realize that we can make statements with our clothing. I'm really dying of curiosity as to what the OP's niece wants to wear....


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## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

orangefoot - I strongly agree.

Altho' Merripan's parents were different in that respect, the majority of parents with the 'My house, My rules' rather than "our home, as a family" (whatever form that family may take) attitude to parenting are not the type of parents to enter into respectful and rational discussion with a child.

I also think that pulling the 'I pay the bills' thing is totally unfair on children as they have absolutely no earning power and it may surprise you Merripan, the number of parents who use this argument well before the child is anywhere near the legal age to work.

And indeed any 'dictatorship', however benvolent it would seem - would have its negatives.

I respected my mother far far more for saying 'Davi - I think that looks terrible on you, the colour makes you look all washed out and the shape doesn't suit you, maybe you could wear something else, than I did my father saying 'you're not leaving the house in that'.

The former resulted in me wearing the garmet in quesition, realising after a while that it didn't suit me and putting to the back of the wardrobe.
The latter resulted, in a row, tears, me decided I wasn't going out and wearing the thing around the house anyway - regardles of how awful it looked. I was a stubborn teen, like many.

Like I say, there are WAY bugger battles in life than clothes.

I do like the guideline of, skin can show if it is okay for someone to touch you there. Are you comfortable with a touch on the arm? Fine, bare your arm. Comfortable with someone touching on the stomach? No? Then cover it up, let them know it is off limits.
But, I wear flip-flops outside in the heat but wouldn't like someone touching my feet!

On the subject of thongs tho, - am I the ONLY woman in the world who wears them becuase she actually finds them comfortable?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DavinaT* 
On the subject of thongs tho, - am I the ONLY woman in the world who wears them becuase she actually finds them comfortable?

Ya know I only wore a thong once and I didn't care for it, but my Dd swears I just haven't found the right kind yet.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DavinaT* 
On the subject of thongs tho, - am I the ONLY woman in the world who wears them becuase she actually finds them comfortable?

No you're not







:

UnschoolnMa keep searching


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

okay...so we had a talk...I explained to her that I was uncomfortable with her clothing choices mostly because she just didn't know how to act in them...IE..she just sits with her legs open in a skirt...flashing her under wear to everyone.
In lower cut tops...especially size xs that are cut for women with more boobs than she has....she is flashing the entire world her chest.
I am not a prude...but I also have young men in my house. I want her to respect herself....and my wishes. I didn't expect this to be such a huge debate...but am happy for the insight.
I am NOT a dictator...but I do expect that in MY house where the environment is MODEST dress.....that she is expected to do the same , as are my boys.

I guess Im a minority here....in that the bit about unschoolin mamas dd walking around in her bathing suit , my kiddos would not be doing. We change out of our swimsuits when done with swimming and do not run around in them as they are not clothing.
I realize that is a personal opinion....and reconginize others may not feel the same. We have had several icky people in the neighborhood watching children and some attempted abductions of young girls. I want my niece to NOT attract any more attention ....I'm looking out for her wellbeing as well as my interest in her being more modest.
I do tell her why I don't want her wearing certain things , she sometimes agrees and sometimes is reluctant.
I will stick to the whole when she is grown and moves out she can do as she pleases. I am not trying to be controlling...I just prefer modesty amongst my family.
period.
thanks for all the input.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DavinaT* 
I also think that pulling the 'I pay the bills' thing is totally unfair on children as they have absolutely no earning power and it may surprise you Merripan, the number of parents who use this argument well before the child is anywhere near the legal age to work.

It seems like a sad thing to teach a child. I'm a SAHM, but even if I did work, I would make a lot less money than my DH. According to this logic, he should get more say in all spending decisions in our family because "he pays the bills." Ick.







:

Quote:

I do like the guideline of, skin can show if it is okay for someone to touch you there. Are you comfortable with a touch on the arm? Fine, bare your arm. Comfortable with someone touching on the stomach? No? Then cover it up, let them know it is off limits.
That doesn't work for me because I don't want other people touching my arms or legs. Actually, I don't want people out side of my family to touch me at all -- anywhere!









In order to follow this guildline I'd need to wear a burka rather than shorts and a T shirt.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Yea the no skin unless you are wanting to be touched there thing wouldn't work for us either. If my shoulders or calves are bare it's not okay for just anyone to just come up and touch me there.









The idea that my bikini clad Dd was in more danger than she would be in a t-shirt and shorts sits weird with me. The woman who had a problem with her suit actually used that as an example. It feels a little like blaming the victim to me I guess. "If she wasn't dressed that way she might not have been assaulted. She made him interested by being attractive/wearing a skirt and heels/etc." No good, IMO.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
okay...so we had a talk...I explained to her that I was uncomfortable with her clothing choices mostly because she just didn't know how to act in them...IE..she just sits with her legs open in a skirt...flashing her under wear to everyone.
In lower cut tops...especially size xs that are cut for women with more boobs than she has....she is flashing the entire world her chest.

It sounds like the problem goes beyond the clothes themselves. Learning to sit in a skirt, get in and out of car in shirt etc. are useful skills in life. It sounds like she can really use your help -- little things that my DDs have gradually learned over the years from small comments, no one has bothered to tell her.

And clothes need to fit properly. While I am fine with my DDs wearing spag. straps, they need to be the right length.

Quote:

.in that the bit about unschoolin mamas dd walking around in her bathing suit , my kiddos would not be doing. We change out of our swimsuits when done with swimming and do not run around in them as they are not clothing.
I realize that is a personal opinion....and reconginize others may not feel the same.
My kids walk back and forth to our community pool in their swim suits, and my older DD wears just her swim suit (with no cover up) back and forth to swim team practice. It is the norm here. Because my DD spends so much time at swim team practice and we homeschool, we spend more time around other kids wearing only swimsuits than wearing clothes -- so they really and truly are not a big deal for us.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DavinaT* 
I do like the guideline of, skin can show if it is okay for someone to touch you there. Are you comfortable with a touch on the arm? Fine, bare your arm. Comfortable with someone touching on the stomach? No? Then cover it up, let them know it is off limits.
But, I wear flip-flops outside in the heat but wouldn't like someone touching my feet!

AS you yourself figured out, that is a rather unhelpful "rule". Most people woudl not want their face touched by others, should they have to cover that up? Also, feet, neck earlobes etc....


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

The swimsuit thing is interesting to me because it's just such a non issue for us. It covers things that our society requires and that most of us prefer to cover in public (breasts, etc.) and allow for water play, comfort in heat, etc. Dd has gone to the grocery store with me in her bikini top and a skirty thing pulled over her bottoms. You can see her belly, back, legs, and shoulders but we'd be pretty uncomfortable if someone just came up and touched her. (Not a casual bumping into thing, but touching.)


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

hmmm...seems to me that if I had said I wanted her to maintain a certain degree of modesty for religious reasons, that it would have been better accepted. Just because my reason are of the non religious nature does not make them less valid....does it?


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
hmmm...seems to me that if I had said I wanted her to maintain a certain degree of modesty for religious reasons, that it would have been better accepted. Just because my reason are of the non religious nature does not make them less valid....does it?

It's not always acceptable to challenge someone else's faith. Challenging someone's logic and reasoning, on the other hand, is a completely different story.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I haven't read all the posts but have skimmed some, and there seem to be a bit of a debate between 2 schools of thought: You are either your child's friend and they are an equal part of the house or you are their parent who rules the roost.

What I don't get is why can't you be a parent who respects what your child wants and listens to them and considers their feelings/wishes AND, when all is said in done you still have "final say" (for lack of a better word at the moment).

I just don't get it...I know plenty of people who know their parents are the overall rulers of the house,have set boundaries, etc...., and who have a great relationship with them (and always have) and have felt listened to and respected.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
hmmm...seems to me that if I had said I wanted her to maintain a certain degree of modesty for religious reasons, that it would have been better accepted. Just because my reason are of the non religious nature does not make them less valid....does it?

Not every reason is valid simply by nature of being a reason or opinion.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
hmmm...seems to me that if I had said I wanted her to maintain a certain degree of modesty for religious reasons, that it would have been better accepted. Just because my reason are of the non religious nature does not make them less valid....does it?

I think that "modesty" wasn't defined, and therefore there was lots of room to debate. If you had stated that she wore shirts that didn't not fit properly and therefore her chest was often visable, and that she sat in skirts with her legs wide apart showing her underwear, and you weren't sure how to address this issues, I think a very different exchange would have taken place.

Even those of us who don't *control* what our kids wear, talk to them about it.

I think that most everyone on the board agrees that you should talk to her about why you feel the way you do, though we don't all agree on what to do if she doesn't see things the same way you do. It is quite possible that she would enjoy learning to dress better, having clothes that fit her properly, and learning how to wear them to her best advantage.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Yea the no skin unless you are wanting to be touched there thing wouldn't work for us either. If my shoulders or calves are bare it's not okay for just anyone to just come up and touch me there.









The idea that my bikini clad Dd was in more danger than she would be in a t-shirt and shorts sits weird with me. The woman who had a problem with her suit actually used that as an example. It feels a little like blaming the victim to me I guess. "If she wasn't dressed that way she might not have been assaulted. She made him interested by being attractive/wearing a skirt and heels/etc." No good, IMO.









It's not fair, and it's not right.
But it happens.

It happens, and when you get sleazy defense attorneys trying to get their clients off for rape charges, you better bet that's one of the elements they'll bring up, and like it or not -- and I don't, and you don't -- there are still many people on a jury who are still of the "She was asking for it by dressing that way" mentality. What that effectively means is that someone could walk free for raping a woman who was dressed provocatively by community standards. And no, again, that's not fair and it's not right. But it happens.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

True enough, and it's so unfortunate.







But, all of that being said, I can't see myself (or my Dd lol) dressing with a potential jury in mind. I don't want to make my wardrobe decisions based on that ya know?


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## Merripan (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I haven't read all the posts but have skimmed some, and there seem to be a bit of a debate between 2 schools of thought: You are either your child's friend and they are an equal part of the house or you are their parent who rules the roost.

What I don't get is why can't you be a parent who respects what your child wants and listens to them and considers their feelings/wishes AND, when all is said in done you still have "final say" (for lack of a better word at the moment).

I just don't get it...I know plenty of people who know their parents are the overall rulers of the house,have set boundaries, etc...., and who have a great relationship with them (and always have) and have felt listened to and respected.

That's how I was raised, and I think I turned out pretty good. I am able to deal with my job at a highly corporate company very well (QUITE the similar situation, IMO), and I know that my best friend's kids are turning out very self-confident and aware of the world as well - and she raises hers the same way. My hubby and I are currently working on raising his son that way (14 yr old), though since we just got him a few years ago and prior to that he had NO understanding of taking responsibility for his own actions, it's difficult to keep up with it.

Even so, I believe that in the end, each child is different, each parenting style is different... It doesn't mean that it's wrong, just different. To me, however, making certain that a child understands their boundaries as they grow, takes responsibility for their actions and understands the consequenses of said actions, and is allowed to stretch and expand within reason as they grow, they should be fine.

~M


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I have had a difficult time shopping with my soon to be 14 yr old.

I mean is it just me, or are most of the shirts in stores putting the emphasis on the chest area? low cut with all of the gathering or lace accenting the chest. My dd has a cute figure and a lot of these shirts are just saying "look at my boobies" to me. I want to downplay that area for her with clothing so that people would notice her sparkling personality. Also with sizing. Why are kids today constantly wearing smaller and smaller clothes? shorts so short they couldn't be any shorter?

I want for my daughter to have like a full nun swimsuit from top to bottom swim habit complete with rosary. But all we can find are these really really skimpy bathing suits, where the chest area has a several inch gap! There are racks and racks of these kinds of suits and very few modest ones.

I'm hoping to see her get something like a one piece speedo, a compromise between a neck to leg covering suit like the 40's that I want her to have and the bikini she wants.

And I won't buy a skimpy bikini for her with my money. I wouldn't let her buy a skimpy bikini with her money. I would get a modest suit for her though, we are going to swim parks and she needs something practical that isn't going to fall off with lots of swimming.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

oops double post


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
I have had a difficult time shopping with my soon to be 14 yr old.

I mean is it just me, or are most of the shirts in stores putting the emphasis on the chest area? low cut with all of the gathering or lace accenting the chest. My dd has a cute figure and a lot of these shirts are just saying "look at my boobies" to me. I want to downplay that area for her with clothing so that people would notice her sparkling personality. Also with sizing. Why are kids today constantly wearing smaller and smaller clothes? shorts so short they couldn't be any shorter?

I want for my daughter to have like a full nun swimsuit from top to bottom swim habit complete with rosary. But all we can find are these really really skimpy bathing suits, where the chest area has a several inch gap! There are racks and racks of these kinds of suits and very few modest ones.

I'm hoping to see her get something like a one piece speedo, a compromise between a neck to leg covering suit like the 40's that I want her to have and the bikini she wants.

And I won't buy a skimpy bikini for her with my money. I wouldn't let her buy a skimpy bikini with her money. I would get a modest suit for her though, we are going to swim parks and she needs something practical that isn't going to fall off with lots of swimming.


Some of the shorts are really short this year, but longer one's are in too.

Here's a pair that are the "height" of fashion but still somewhat modest.http://www.abercrombiekids.com/webap...-1_12152_12103. You can find less expensive versions at Kohl's.

And the low cut shirts are worn with another shirt under them. That's the 'in' syle and is more modest.

I would be concerned about being too anxious to "downplay" her chest area. Intead of noticing her personality, sometimes it makes other kids think "why is she so anxious to hide her body."

Finally, how about a cute tankini. http://www.limitedtoo.com/detail/2230320. or http://www.landsend.com/pp/Scrunchba...RCH=PAGE_66463. A little more fashion forward than a one piece but still somewhat modest (by today's standards, which really is how clothing must be judged).


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

its nice to see a few moms out there with the same concerns as myself. we are still searching for a suit...and will probably end up with the lands end one...the limited ones do not have enough coverage.
we will probably also get the board shorts as she has a rather large butt and everything leaves her butt cheeks hanging out....and she really does hate that.
soooo.....in the end we seem to be sort of on the same page....and its going okay so far. Till her mom buys her some ridiculous hoochy outfit and asks her to wear it....I told her to tell her mom "no way" and wear her own clothes.










ps.BESTBIRTHS
you can get bathing suits that are full coverage...if you're interested . I found them by googling Modest swimwear girls. It came up with many suits that cover from shoulders to knees. If thats really not what you're looking for ....lands end..and many others sell swimsuits that have matching longer boardshorts. really a cute look.
and rashguard shirts are in this season as well.

I just told my niece she can get the swimsuit but I would prefer to have her wear the matching shorts over top and she is very comfortable w/ that as well....as for the rashguard shirt...she likes it ....we'll see.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
I mean is it just me, or are most of the shirts in stores putting the emphasis on the chest area? low cut with all of the gathering or lace accenting the chest.

I think it depends on where you shop. It seems to me that the more expensive stores carry more clothes that are both stylish and not overly revealing.

Quote:

Why are kids today constantly wearing smaller and smaller clothes? shorts so short they couldn't be any shorter?
What I see is extremes -- short shorts, or really long shorts. The style is just to avoid the middle ground.

The same with top -- tight fighting tanks, or big bloucey tops that could amost be materinity tops.

Quote:

But all we can find are these really really skimpy bathing suits, where the chest area has a several inch gap!
Try a sporting goods store, or a speciality shop for competitive swimmers. Racing suits have modest tops that come up and smash your breast (because cleavage slows you down when you swim!) Practice suits for competitive swimmers are somewhere between that and a regular suit. Sports Authority would be a good place to start.

Quote:

we are going to swim parks and she needs something practical that isn't going to fall off with lots of swimming.
One of my DDs is a serious swimmer and I agree that you can't really swim in a lot of suits.


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

A really great look (very sporty and in with the beach n surf crowd 'round here in SD) that I'll probably invest in myself (forgive me, I'm a fashion junkie) is a tankini top and boyshort style bottom in different, but complimentary colors/prints, or girl's board shorts. They're comfortable, modest, but extra trendy, because you can hit the beach and then walk up the street and hit the shops without having to change.

Most people think boardshorts and get the idea of baggy mens swim trunks that go to the knees, but girls board shorts are a really great summer look for girls who want the practicality of a suit to swim in without looking like a throwback from the '20s. Rusty and Roxy both have excellent styles (both in to-the-knee shorts and between the knee and thigh) and you can find them on ebay fairly cheap.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

I think it depends on where you shop. It seems to me that the more expensive stores carry more clothes that are both stylish and not overly revealing.
For DD I was planning to go to this store that is second hand that carries one and two years ago's styles. Were a few years ago's styles even more immodest than todays? You ladies can talk me out of bargain shopping if that is the case. We were in the mall in a store called Deb trying on the bikini's that didn't work. With dd, I want to avoid the more immodest stores though...So tell me... Which expensive and more likely to get modest styles stores do you go to? So, Kohls, Land's end, Sporting goods stores, and where else? (She's in women's sizes so Limited doesn't work anymore, she's like a 3 or a 5). Lands end is kind of difficult because we don't know exactly what size she is.

I wouldn't want the really modest swimsuit, I was just joking. I wouldn't mind a tankini. I really wouldn't mind a bikini if it had coverage. She doesn't want a tankini, she wants a bikini. What she was trying on was too small and everything was hanging out. The cut was too skimpi on the bottom. She had to tie it tight to make it cover the butt cheeks, and that is not flattering at all. The top was so wide that 1/2 of her breasts were hanging out. Nobody wants to see that much of a 14 yr old girl. Especially her Dad and I (insert eye gougeing smilie). I want it to cover and stay on without being really tight. Something that looks cute, and not trampy. If we could find a bikini like that, with maybe some board shorts and a rash shirt, I think I would be good. But I think the tankini you showed or a one piece is more practical for swimming. We are going to discovery cove on our youngest dd's wish trip. There is lots of snorkeling. I told her I can only afford one suit, so it's got to serve a lot of purpose and be functional.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
For DD I was planning to go to this store that is second hand that carries one and two years ago's styles. Were a few years ago's styles even more immodest than todays? You ladies can talk me out of bargain shopping if that is the case.


YES, the current style is actually MORE modest than it was a few years ago.

Instead of belly barring tops you get these from the infamous Ambercrombie: http://www.abercrombie.com/webapp/wc...-1_12274_12203. I mean cute, very stylish and modest!

Also Limited too comes up to a kids size 18. This should fit a girl wearing an adult size 3-5. This style is really cute, not overly showy and tends to fit well. http://www.limitedtoo.com/detail/2230291/39/1#. It's somewhat open in the back, and my binki loving dd loves having this one too!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Thanks! I think that she might be a 16 up top and an 18 on the bottom. Maybe that is why we are having problems with two pieces that are sold together with the top being too big or the bottoms being too tight. I didn't know that limited too had her size. She liked one of the suits she saw there and we can go try it on.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
Lands end is kind of difficult because we don't know exactly what size she is.

We've had good luck with just going with their size chart. Their clothes run more true to size than most places. Returns are a breeze -- you can either send it back or just take it (with the receipt) to any Sears store.

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We are going to discovery cove on our youngest dd's wish trip. There is lots of snorkeling. I told her I can only afford one suit, so it's got to serve a lot of purpose and be functional.
Have a wonderful trip!!!!! I've heard fantastic things about discovery cove!


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## ikesmom (Oct 29, 2005)

I skimmed over this thread when it was 1-2 pgs and read some opinions. I didn't have a reason to post until now. I will say that I am in the middle of not being overly modest or overly revealing clothing.

I have 2 dd's through marriage and their mother's choose clothes and make-up for them. I don't always like every choice but don't make them change unless we are going to church or somewhere that it will be a hazzard or something like camping







.

Youngest dd is 10 older one is 13]

Youngest wears some outfits for dance that tight, short, ect but not exposing any actual personal parts. At the recital last week I noticed some men watching some of the girls in the worst way. Ugh it made me sick to my stomach. I noticed some of the girls wore white form fitting body suits with no bras and everything was visible. Some of these girls have very developed bodies. I felt like I was the only one in the auditorium having this awful feeling and kept looking at my dh to see if he noticed or if he was looking at them too







but it didn't appear that way.

Then came a group of girls probably age 9-13 and they had REALLY short shorts, high boots, half shirts, berets, and stocking on. They did a bootie shake song and thrusted their little bodies around in adult way. The lyrics were about the bootie and the body -this time dh actually turned to me with his jaw dropped.







I hate it! I don't want guys looking at our dd's like they are sexual. They put tons of make-up on the girls too for showy appearance. Some of them remind me of Jon Bennet Ramsey(spelling).

I am having an internal struggle now. I am looking around to see who's looking at my dd's all the time now. I also can't really change it if their mom s think it is ok.

Sorry it s a vent but it ties in with why some people like their kids covered.
When I was a growing up their were lots of times I was gropped , grabbed, and propositioned in sexual nature. Family members, prison, ect all involved.

I know why should someone have to be modest because of some guy's perverted problems but if someone is drooling over your dd right in front of you ...it feels blech.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

No Kidding! I feel the same way. Recently with the Kelsey Smith kidnapping, was I politically incorrect when I thought her tank top and ultra short shorts made her look like tasty bait for the criminal looking for someone? I think of it that way and all the short shorts scare me because of this. I don't want dd wearing them at 14 but I wonder if she was 18 if I would feel different. I do have a problem feeling fearful when I probably should be wanting my dd to go out and have a sense of safety in the world. I heard another doula talking about wanting to send her child out with a sense that the world was safe. That just sounds foreign to me. Someone else says "really statistically it hardly ever happens". If it has happened to you and a few people you know though, it becomes more real and the dressing thing becomes more real. Not that I don't believe the killer would have kidnapped her no matter what she wore. But these feeling tie into a lot about what I feel comfortable buying for my daughter. The other people gawking and what they are thinking factor is real.

We too just went to a recital where 11-13 year olds were dancing to loosen up my buttons baby. Yuk! I don't want anyone loosening up buttons on girls this age. I think a lot of people thought yuk too. The song had a good beat to dance too, the dance was not seductive and the costumes were big and frumpy though, but still....I would pick a different song for that age.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

: ikesmom...we have a lot of other people over here that never go home either!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Keep in mind that actual child predators don't care if your child is dressed like a hoochie-mama or a nun. Your child is in no more actual danger based on what he or she is wearing.

That said, teenagers can certainly get innapropriate attention if they're dressed in a way that makes them look older. More risk of being raped? I highly doubt it. More danger of being whistled at? Yeah, very likely.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I think in my head I know this. I think I have hangups on this issue, because it's true, those I knew who were abused were dressed very modestly....so why should it matter...or why does it matter? but skimpy dressing does still give me anxiety.


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## ikesmom (Oct 29, 2005)

Yeah I agree..I didn't dress skimpy and my mom was strict with us on decency, coverage, behavior ect.
I don't think I asked to be looked at preyed upon . I don't think these girls at the show were seeking that either but society makes it that way. They are being influenced on what is appealing, expressive, appropriate, and the norm for their peers and themselves.

Somehow though if something happens to them and they are engaging in sexual behavior, preyed on , or abused the same society will turn on the "mama' and say where in h*ll was her mama? " Parents let the school and others raise their children these days" and such comments. It always turns on the parents...especially the mama.

So I think every person has to look at their child and pay attention to what that kid is experiencing, being exposed to, ect and if things need to be corrected or changed for health or well being then it is that parent's responsibility.

I liked making my own choices growing up but I also needed my mom to make choices for me. I am no worse for it.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

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Originally Posted by *ikesmom* 
Then came a group of girls probably age 9-13 and they had REALLY short shorts, high boots, half shirts, berets, and stocking on. They did a bootie shake song and thrusted their little bodies around in adult way. The lyrics were about the bootie and the body -this time dh actually turned to me with his jaw dropped.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
We too just went to a recital where 11-13 year olds were dancing to loosen up my buttons baby. Yuk! I don't want anyone loosening up buttons on girls this age.

I really don't understand what the people who plan these things, or the parents who pay for them, are thinking. It seems like a very strange way to "socialize" a child. It's hard for me to see how these kinds of things can help foster healthy self esteem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ikesmom* 
So I think every person has to look at their child and pay attention to what that kid is experiencing, being exposed to, ect and if things need to be corrected or changed for health or well being then it is that parent's responsibility.

I agree.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Maybe it's because a long list of graduates of this dance school are on broadway now, and one of the senior girls got a full ride scholorship to college for dance. 99.5 percent of the show was awesome, professional and cute. Dance is a way of keeping kids active with some kind of exercise. While my kids took dance, they learned to read faster because of the gross and fine motor skills connection and balance.


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Yanno, I don't know why this thread has held my attention for so long, but I just wanted to interject my (finally formulated coherently) opinion on the subject of modesty. My daughter is 2 but I'm sure something to this effect will pop up in a decade's time...

I think I'm actually fine with somewhat revealing clothes (to a degree...if you sit down and your skirt is suddenly hovering somewhere in the hip region, or you bend down halfway to pick something up and people can give you the details of your underwear, it's too revealing), if they're being worn for the right reasons. If my daughter is confident about her body and comfortable in her clothes and she likes them, it's fine with me. If she's wearing them for the wrong reasons though...to get attention, to be like everyone else, because she needs validation about her body...I'm not fine. It's not the clothes, to me. It's the reasoning behind the clothes. And really, I feel this way about any style, overly modest or baggy clothes, punky clothes, scene kid clothes...I just want her to feel comfortable in her own skin and not let her clothing style define who she is. You can force a kid to change their style, but it's not really fixing any problems, is it? (Not directed at the OP, just a general statement, btw)


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I agree with you Neoma. So if you have a child with a poor body image, wears their hair covering their eyes and covers their body with baggy clothes, or a teenager who likes to dress provocatively, what can you do then to fix attitudes, both preventitive and after the fact? Both are probably symptoms of something, but how do we address this?

By the way...we got a bikini from the limited too for dd in a size 18. It is brown with pink skulls on it. The skulls have shiny bling on them. It has very good coverage on the top, and the bottom has a bikini with a skirt. It was 50% off regular price so it only was $25.00 She'd like to save to eventually get the matching purse and flip flops that go with it. I am very happy with it and so is she, and I think it will stay on pretty good at waterparks, especially after we alter the top a little smaller since she is a size 16 on top. Thank You for the help with the swimsuit finding!


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
I agree with you Neoma. So if you have a child with a poor body image, wears their hair covering their eyes and covers their body with baggy clothes, or a teenager who likes to dress provocatively, what can you do then to fix attitudes, both preventitive and after the fact? Both are probably symptoms of something, but how do we address this?

Preventatively? Set a good example. Teach and practice healthy eating, be active and encourage your kids to join you. Take care of your own body and be confident in your own. After the fact, find out what it is they are insecure about, and address that. Saying "you're beautiful no matter what" doesn't work with kids, because, well you're they're parents, you're supposed to say that! If they're uncomfortable with an aspect of themselves, 9 times out of 10, it's changable. If they want to change it, help them. If it's not something they can change (height, facial features, bone structure, whatever), help them learn to love it. Show them pictures of "attractive" people with the same trait.

Example. I used to HATE my forehead. Hate it. I have a high forehead. Of course, no one else noticed it or anything, except me. I made a big deal out of it in high school. Someone, I don't remember who, sat me down and showed me pictures of celebrities with a forehead like mine. Tyra Banks. Nicole Kidman. BARBIE! Relabel those traits they find negative. I have a long, pointy, thin nose. Used to hate that too. It wasn't cute and perky like other girls. Someone called it "proud" and I thought...well..yeah! That sounds better. It's unique, it's proud, it's mine!

Above all, remind them that their physical attributes don't make who they are. I've seen some pretty unattractive folk who are just confident and fine with who they are, and they attract people like magnets. It doesn't matter what they're dressed like, if they have no confidence about who they are on the inside, it's gonna show right through those clothes anyways, and it's not going to change a thing.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)




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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
I agree with you Neoma. So if you have a child with a poor body image, wears their hair covering their eyes and covers their body with baggy clothes, or a teenager who likes to dress provocatively, what can you do then to fix attitudes, both preventitive and after the fact? Both are probably symptoms of something, but how do we address this?

By the way...we got a bikini from the limited too for dd in a size 18. It is brown with pink skulls on it. The skulls have shiny bling on them. It has very good coverage on the top, and the bottom has a bikini with a skirt. It was 50% off regular price so it only was $25.00 She'd like to save to eventually get the matching purse and flip flops that go with it. I am very happy with it and so is she, and I think it will stay on pretty good at waterparks, especially after we alter the top a little smaller since she is a size 16 on top. Thank You for the help with the swimsuit finding!


My dd has that suit too. Really cute and it stayed put perfectly during our vacation in Mexico, including down the water slides and the wave pool!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
My dd has that suit too. Really cute and it stayed put perfectly during our vacation in Mexico, including down the water slides and the wave pool!

Great! I'll tell my dd the suit stands up to water slides and wave pools!


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## Paigerina (Jan 15, 2007)

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Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
We don't have any rules about clothing. You won't get any "flames" from me about it, but it's not something I can personally relate to.

Of course not having rules about it doesn't mean I haven't spent time talking about clothing, social attitudes toward different looks, assumptions, self respect and respect for others, creative expression, and etc. My Dd wears halter tops, mini skirts, and short shorts. She wears sweaters, button up shirts, long skirts, and pretty dresses. She wears cargo shorts, fingerless gloves, and t-shirts. What's most important to me is that she's dressing according to what she wants, not according to what she thinks other people (esp boys) like to see her in.







It's a confusing world as far as media and mainstream attitudes about sex/appearance go, so my focus is more about helping her feel strong and healthy in whatever she wears & that her choices are about her.

If I ever have an issue with something she's wearing I respectfully tell her, and because she knows that I am never out to just rain on her parade or be a nag, she respectfully hears me out and gives it some real thought. As for being in underwear and such...that's an issue of respect for others. We don't want to make people uncomfortable. Dd sometimes will come downstairs in her night shirt and underwear to get some water or whatever, and I think that's just fine. Ds prefers to not be undressed around others and we respect that as well. We don't think it's automatically bad or inappropriate for girls and boys to see each other in various forms of undress. A boy shirtless, especially in the summer, is no big deal at all. A girl in a sports bra and shorts... not a crisis in my book.









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## archibaldbc (Jun 28, 2007)

WOW, i so appreciate that everyone is willing to share their thoughts.
My daughter is 13, yet she is my height and looks like a grown woman. She has her own fashion sense. My one rule is no cleavage showing, and no nipples showing through the clothes. it is driving me nuts that grown men are looking at her 'that way". It is driving me nuts that grown women look her up and down like she is trash. She usually wears long flowing skirts and button up shirts with short sleeves.Always with matching jewelry.
I cannot believe women are looking down at her like that. I realize those women have low self esteem, but oh my goodness you are not going to treat my little girl(this started at 12) bad because she is beautiful? She has long blonde hair and looks like barbie to me. I would not want my daughters self esteem to be affected by this, but I agree with others who have basically made the point to let the kids choose.


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