# My 5 yr old just started to hit me, spit at me, throw things at me during rages.



## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

How do I teach my son anger management??? How do I teach him NOT to hit me, spit in my face, of pick up things to throw at me if he is having a tantrum (or just angry with me?)

I don't have a problem keeping my cool (thanks to Becky







Bailey). But now what?

My son just turned 5. He's been slightly aggressive with his baby sister (born 9 months ago) and in the past 3 months, he's just worse and worse with me.

In the soul-searching (and book reading) over the past 2-3 months, I have realized 2 things.
1) I have been a permissive parent (and pretty child-centered) for the past 5 years.







Looking for HIM for guidance.







Which could be part of the problem here (won't get into everything.) Jean Liedloff believes that makes kids NUTS.
Who is in control? The unhappy consequences of being child-centered.
2) We have talked and he said "I miss you mommy."





















I haven't made much time for one-on-one with him since his sister was born, and I think part of this misbehavior is just an expression of unmet needs (his need for time with me.) That would explain why he spits, hits his sister on purpose.

Lately, when he gets very angry, he has started being EXTREMELY rude, *"I can do whatever I want."*







And honestly, it looks like he's right. How do I force a kid to do something he doesn't want to? Drag him? Geez, I could do that, but not where I want to go, kwim? Bribe him? No.

My friend noticed the following at his birthday party this weekend. DS was holding a big rock and wanted to throw it over the fence. DH said "don't do it." DS smiled anyway and did it.









(I think the hitting just started because DH recently had to go on a short trip to pick up his 14 year old son (my stepson) living in another country and DS was really upset about it, asking him not to leave. Perhaps my DS is furious/fearful of losing ANOTHER parent and can't bear the thought.)

We went to Disneyland this past Monday. DH took DS on a few rides while I went with my stepson on the fast ones DH didn't want to. (Grandma held my DD.) When I saw DS again, he turned aggressive with me for no reason! Out of now where and for no apparent reason, he was rude and mean to me.









In the past week, he has thrown hard things in my face. Again... I'm pretty good about keeping my cool and NOT retaliating physically... but speaking firmly doesn't help. Talking about it later calmly doesn't help. I know I'm supposed to avoid punishments, threats, bribes, rewards, etc... but talking to him isn't helping. He keeps doing it. Which goes back to the number one cause... it's an expression of frustration/anger at me. *Please someone tell me this will change once I change. I need reassurance.*

I know I need to spend more time with him.... I'll do that tomorrow. In the meantime, I need advice to help him get a handle on himself.

I have a pile of great books (you name it, I own it)... and no time to read them with visitors (that just left), a new baby, playdates (need supervision) a cluttered house, laundry to sort, wash, fold and put away, food shopping to do, dinner to make...

I feel like an AP failure/idiot.

(Did you see the Incredibles? Remember the scene when Helen Parr is in Edna Mode's kitchen crying about how her DH may be cheating on her (she is feeling sorry for herself) and EM smacks her over the head with her newspaper, telling her to get a grip on herself, and to remember who SHE is... she is ELASTIGIRL... she needs to storm in and remind him who SHE is! Well, I alternate between this pity party and anger/self-motivation to address the problem at hand. I fear I am creating a monster.)


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

... mom ... you sound tired....Is there a way you can take a break? Find some time for yourself? If you find you are too child centred you need to find your own centre again...not easy ... is there any way you could find some "me" time?
I can sure offer you reassurance:
- it is just not true that if you are the perfect mom (which incidentally does not exist) your children will be angels. What they do and how they behave is not "your fault"
- even assuming you made mistakes you have so many chances with your children!
As regards his tantrums:
- before it escalates to a rage, try sympathising: I see you feel angry (be sure not to ask why, it makes it worse), I sometimes also get angry when.. It is not nice when..
- when it does escalate to a rage, better keep your distance, you cannot allow him to hit you
- tell him you love him but you will need to step away because he may hurt you
- in another thread people a mom suggested creating a safe area of the house where you and him can go when they feel angry or sad


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
, *"I can do whatever I want."*

We get this sometimes. Dd is 4.
I counter with a direct comment about what is inappropriate at the moment. Throwing rocks? "You may not do things that are dangerous. It is my job to stop you from hurting others." Hitting? "You may not hit. I will stop you." etc.

My dd has a history of violent rages, but they are few and far between these days (thank goodness). But she can still put on quite a show! She *only* does this when something is "wrong". Back when she was having multiple rages daily, she was under lots of stress for a variety of reasons. Handling the primary problem *did* immediately reduce the frequency/intensity of rage. So, you may see some pretty marked improvements just from carving out time to be with ds (one on one). Let the housekeeping sit for 2 weeks....eat frozen dinners....watch the laundry pile up.....but spend time with ds.

When rages occur, empathy can help a lot. "Wow, you are *really* angry!" and comments suggested by pp.

Also, drop as many power struggles as possible. Say yes whenever possible. If the answer is no, there should be a good reason: safety and respect are two biggies.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

When my two tried this stuff, they were quickly escorted to their rooms. I just quickly and calmly got them there and closed the door. If they would not stay there on their own, I would sit outside the door until the rage stopped. I do not let my kids hit me. No way.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I think you are absolutely right in your analysis of what's going on here. Especially of your inclusion of Jean Liedloffs article.
I agree very much that children need to know that the adults around them know what they are doing. They need bounderies, and consistancy. I believe it helps them to feel safe.
If you are saying that you have not provided that "safety" and now you have "left him" for a baby, and now DH has his other son, your guy may just feel intensely out of control of his life and scared to death of what's' coming next!
I think the first step is for you and dh to decide how you want things to be. THen...do it! The key to that is consistancy. Even if you feel insecure with your "new" role, pretend for your son's sake that you are confident. Soon you will be.
The heck with the laundry and the housework. Forget the playdates and the outings for a while. Hunker down at home, and work on what's goin on there first. Then reintroduce yourselves to the other stuff once you have thing settled there. Things definatley can change, but you need to lead the way.It is going to be really hard, but soooo worth it.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

My daughter (5) is your son's long lost twin. Raging, hitting, kicking, throwing breakables, swearing at me on a daily basis. There are a lot of factors, many of which are beyond my control right now, but I have seen the behavior improve when I change the things that ARE in my control. Like staying calm and choosing my battles carefully. And spending more time one-on-one with her. In addition to really playing with her every day, grandma comes to watch baby and we go on a three hour date once a week and do whatever dd wants.

Anyway, when she starts to rage (or hopefully before, when I see it coming) I say "hey you look like you're mad/frustrated/about to lose it. Can I give you some loving?" She usually screams no and motions as if to hit me but I keep calm and say "I want to help you get your anger out, but you can't hurt me while we do it." Sometimes I have to literally hold her from hitting but it's pretty hard to do it with a baby in my arms. Then I try to help identify what she's feeling and slowly I can talk her down (sometimes, other times it's too late or she's too intense at that moment and so i stay with her while she kicks and screams on the floor) with constant reminders that I love her, I'm with her, I won't leave her, and I'm on her side. I found reading Playful Parenting to be a huge help conceptually. Here's a recent discussion on it: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=244958

I try to keep in mind that her acting mean is because she feels bad, scared and hurt inside. So I try to focus on encouraging feelings of safety, trust & confidence, while offering alternatives for her to express what she feels (hit a ball or pillow, do a kicking dance, something like that). It's very scary for kids to feel such intense anger and frustration with their parents. In my limited experience, leaving a child during the raging is perceived as abandonment and only causes more rage to build up.

anyway, i hope something in this helps. I haven't really found the clear path either. I'll be eager to read the other answers you get. good luck!


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

I too love Becky Bailey! (We've got a discussion thread going if you'd like to join in.) Kudos for keeping your cool in such a difficult situation. It sounds like you've done a lot of thinking about the possible causes of your DS's out-of-control behavior. That's a great start. I agree with Liedloff's concept that being too child-centered can drive kids crazy. He needs to know you're in charge, and you will not let him hurt the people he loves- you or the baby! Do not let him abuse you! Let him know, "That hurts!" and remove yourself from him. That is a natural consequence. People don't want to be with people that abuse them. But the rest of the time, DO spend lots of loving, affectionate one-on-one time with him. He needs to know that you love him and have faith in him now more than ever.

Some people on this board will not agree with me, but I too think that being too permissive and too child-centered can be harmful. If you have been these things, then forgive yourself and start fresh. You have not created a monster, but that can be our biggest fear as parents and really keep us from seeing the whole picture. It sounds like your son is lonely, angry, and hurting, which is entirely normal after the birth of a new sibling. And you are afraid of his strong feelings. I don't know if you are, but I know I was. What helped us was me deciding to really accept and understand the depth of my son's rage and jealously about the birth of his baby brother. Once I helped him to express these feelings in appropriate ways, things got so much better!

I wrote about this experience in an article on my website if you are interested: http://www.birthinginfinite.com/moth...iscipline.html

If you change, things WILL get better!


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## Amoreena (Sep 10, 2003)

Hi Tanibani 

Here are some things that come to mind, in no particular order of importance.

One, I have often felt with my 2 boys (35 months part, now ages 3 and almost-6) that I a) intervened too early and too much between the two of them, which has set up a dynamic of the younger one always getting protected, being the innocent, etc., and b) didn't spent enough 1on1 time with my older. I never have since #2 and still don't. It's hard, but I think it's important. You've mentioned that one.

Another thought is, have you checked out
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Positi...ing-Discipline ?
Sorry to throw another group at you, but there's a wealth of wisdom and experience in that group. There are some parents dealing with and who have dealt with some extremely difficult behaviors on a long-term basis, and came out the other side. There's also a fair amount of information that comes through in there from parents dealing with food sensitivities and the like, which as you know can exacerbate the behaviors.

Another thought is from one of the VCAPMoms members about "strong sitting":
http://www.nancythomasparenting.com/SS.htm -- this is in the "helping him get a handle on himself" department.

Another thought is NVC. Yeah, I know, how do you hand it on to the child. Great question







... "they" say persistence, consistency, modeling.

I also think the Jean Liedloff child-centered material is on point.

Another thought, in the accepting him where he's at department, I've frequently read that boys experience testosterone surges around the age of 5. Of course, that's not something to hang everything on. But it can help you find a way to a bit more acceptance of maybe this is to some degree out of his control.

Since it keeps happening ... thinking of things I heard in the NVC workshop March 19 in Santa Barbara ... there is some underlying need that's not getting addressed, acknowledged.

I do think they follow our lead, if not in the short term, the long. That's one of the hardest things in parenting, seems to me, having faith that it's going to *take*, at some point, and to keep on keeping on with the positive stuff long enough. It can take years.

On the subject of household needs, how about some TCC tribal stuff, have a friend or two over who help you clean? I know that can become a comedy of errors or self-defeating exercise if the kids need continuous intervention/supervision. I'm willing 

Yes, we just saw the Incredibles while visiting friends in the NW. Woof. I totally understand the vascillation between I Am Woman and Inadequate Mommy. I was crying to dh over the weekend about how I feel I've ruined my near-6yo's life, how I feel it slipping away from me like sands in an hourglass, never to be recovered... seems melodramatic but I often feel that way. I just have such a strong sense of how precious and important every day is ... I don't *think* I'm a perfectionist ... but I just never dreamed I'd have so much trouble or be so challenged ...

I hope something in all this helps!!!!! Feel free to write me directly, you know where I am.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try to address each one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
The heck with the laundry and the housework. Forget the playdates and the outings for a while. Hunker down at home, and work on what's goin on there first. Then reintroduce yourselves to the other stuff once you have thing settled there. Things definatley can change, but you need to lead the way.It is going to be really hard, but soooo worth it.

This seems to me, to be the best advice.

We did this today. I made it a point to spend some time with him (reading, talking) and I think helped. He didn't rage today or hit me. He was pretty good last night too... I read him a story before bed, like I used to, which is what he misses - our nights together.

I've noticed that when DH (or I) spend extra special time with him before bed, he doesn't wake up screaming/raging. He sleeps through the night and doesn't even come to our room at night. This has been the case for the past 3/4 nights.

Last night I started to read one of the many beautiful books I own I Love You Rituals by Becky Bailey. She writes that most of us are thinking about the past or the future (me! grocery lists, to do lists, dinner...) and not living in the present! But my child is living in the present and continually frustrated because I am telling him to "wait, wait, wait..."







It seems so obvious now, but it was good to read it and become aware of it.

So this morning, I made it a point to look at him and "be present." I really believe that has been the missing puzzle piece. It made our interactions more enjoyable. It did cut back on outbursts immensely. I feel hopeful now.

He did spit on his sister again (out of nowhere) so this is going to take time to change. I'm hoping it will stop once he/we deal with some other stuff.

Gaialice - I do need some me time to recharge. I can get a sitter. I just need to be creative... I don't want him to feel like I'm pushing him away or anything.

The whole child-centered thing really needs to be addressed. He is so spirited, so my game plan was to set up my days for his entertainment (preschool - where he has a blast, park ...) and then when we get home, he's complaining he's bored!!! Meanwhile I have to get dinner on the table (and he hasn't really had any time with me.) Lately I've been giving him even MORE time to play, but then I get resentful because I didn't do anything for myself (I was just driving him from one fun thing to another). So this whole dynamic has to change... and it will be challenging, but I can do it. I just have to be creative.

Sunnmama - the saying Yes often - I'm doing that more for his need to connect with me. If he asks for a book, instead of telling him, "not right now...." I'm saying yes.

Sphinx - I attended an amazing and very helpful lecture by Aletha Solter a few weeks ago. She cited Playful Parenting as a great resource. I need to check it out.

Harmonymama







thank you for your AMAZING article! That was great to read. It should be in Mothering! You know what's weird, Giancarlo started to regress a little... while I'm eating my food, he is asking to crawl and sit in my lap. (awwwwww) Then he pretends to nurse. "I'm just kidding!" He's ALWAYS trying to throw something over Marlena's head.







: I have encouraged him to express his feelings (not in that particular instance) and sometimes he's just evasive. I'll just have to try harder.

Amoreena - strong sitting - I've tried to show him that months before and he wasn't interested. I'll keep trying. He did tell me today "I don't want to hurt you mommy." I appreciate the TCC offer. Not yet... maybe later...


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Just to update everyone. Things have turned around!!!

I wrote this e-mail to friends in June, but didn't send it. Now it's official...

For those of you who don't know, the past year was very difficult... after Marlena was born, few months into it, not immediately, Giancarlo was just really hard to get along with. (He was fine with dad, but with me (and Marlena) it was a nightmare.) I was angry with him all the time and he was just mean, rude, aggressive with Marlena, etc... He is soooo much better now.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Written October 18, 2005

Just wanted to give everyone an update. I've noticed lately that Giancarlo has been much better. Waaaaay less aggression, easier to get along with, more cooperative (which I can hardly believe!), etc...

I followed the "kids misbehave due to unmet needs" line of thought... (the preschool director said that). At first I didn't get it. How could that be??? I was with him ALL the time, catering to his needs, taking him here and there. He explained to me that he missed me (he said that over and over during the past year)... so with Marlena in the same room, I spent more one-on-one time, really being present (stories, interaction, play) rather than continually tell him I was "too busy" (dinner, Marlena, computer time, cleaning up the kitchen, etc...). He also told me that he hated the way I rushed him in the mornings (I was a bit disrespectful - barking orders to "hurry up!" and anyone would have a reaction to that.) So I worked on that too, to make it more smooth.

It took some time, but it worked. He is a pleasure again. He is much better with Marlena and DH & I have been on top of him for anything uncool (too aggressive) and letting him know it's not OK and won't be tolerated.

Tanya

Skimming through the book







PLAYFUL PARENTING by Lawrence J. Cohen helped.

The things I do now:

1. When he does something "naughty" I don't "lose it" and start screaming at him. I remain calm (I'm amazed that it gets soooo much easier with time) and try to see what he was trying to do (usually something innocent) and tell him "look at your sister... how does she look?" Sad... whatever... I want HIM to feel empathy for her... then HE can start to help make her feel better. "What do you think would help her right now?"

Giancarlo - a hug? giving it back? finding something else to hand her?

Yes. He says a heartfelt "I'm sorry" and Marlena * really * responds to that. Then I say "seeeee, Giancarlo... see how you helped her feel better." And that helps him realize he has the power to make her feel good and it gives him a positive view of himself. It's really great. I've noticed he's more careful and notices her feelings now.

If I were to just punish him (instead of using it as a "teaching moment") we'd both still be in a hell hole.

2. Instead of continually expressing disapproval of him, I do the opposite. I acknowledge all the good things and that helps him feel better. (I used to think this was fake and manipulative, that's why I never did it.) It's another positive self-image boost. As a result, he acts better.

3. During the day, especially before bed, I make sure to give him hugs and kisses and really focus on telling him how much I love him. He eats it up. It makes him feel loved and secure. (I also encourage affection between Giancarlo & Marlena. They give each other a kiss & hug good-bye when we drop him off to K every morning. Sometimes she doesn't want a hug from him, and I tell him, "No, she said no... you can ask her later and she will say yes.")

4. I taught Marlena to wag her finger and say "No" anytime Giancarlo is doing something annoying/really bothersome. We do that together to him and she likes it. It helps her feel powerful. Giancarlo respects it. And if he wants something from her, I tell him he has to ask her. I model it also. "Marlena can I take that?" She'll shake her head no. But it is a start. Giancarlo has to learn that he needs to respect her no's and vice versa. He then offers her something else and they trade and both sides are happy.

Things aren't perfect... there are still disagreements between them, but I'm on top of it and he's learning how to negotiate the problems and find solutions.

I still haven't had much luck with making time for just the 2 of us (some friends suggested I take G out on a "date" but I felt guilty leaving my slinging, very attached babe behind), but I try to squeeze it in during our daily interactions, and it's really working. Both of us feel the difference.

Now I see him with new







eyes. I see him for what he is - an adorable 5.5 year old. It's amazing.

Perhaps Kindergarten has something to do with it too. Miss Tina's (Parent Co-op classroom, the







teacher







does not believe in Punishments or Rewards) class is great!!!! He loves it. It's challenging, he learns new things, he loves Miss Tina, and he loves the class in general. That also helps to give him a positive self-image. (He likes that parents are around and today he asked me why other schools don't have parents working there also. Awwwww....)

Bottom line... the problem was our bond/connection was broken and he was raging because of it. I worked on it (I did not rely on Punishing him, since the acting out was not the core issue).

Now that I've worked on connecting with him again, I can't believe the difference.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

That's wonderful!!!!!!


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## Fluffy Peanut (Apr 13, 2003)

Wow, that is great!!







I am so happy for you and your family!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Ok, I didn't know the end of the story and took notes on ideas to share.







So, I will share them for others in the same boat to try.









1. Fill love tank. See "The Five Love Languages for Children". The author suggests that the five are: acts of service, physical touch, gifts, affirmation, quality time. We generally value all; but there is usually a primary 'love language' and each adult or child feels more full of love, or empty of love, if their love language isn't being "spoken" to them consistently, daily.

2. Eye contact when speaking with child.

3. Validation of feelings as has been suggested. The "How to Talk so Kids will Listen, How to Listen so Kids will Talk" discusses pratical communication skills for increasing the dialogue effectiveness.

4. "Siblings Without Rivalry" helps discuss what one pp was saying about allowing the "ugly" feelings about a new sibling to be voiced and validated. This helps the child work through them so that he can move away from carrying them alone. And then he can gain perspective once these are not such a heavy burden.

5. "The Explosive Child" discusses 'picking your battles'. Basically, it has a "Basket" criteria of degrees of battle. Basket "A" is safety issues. These are critical to health and worth making an issue over. Basket "C" are little things that won't matter tomorrow, next week or next month. These are ignored and dealt with without creating an issue/battle or power struggle.

Basket "B" are the important but negotiable items which need buy-in. Most things are here. But the issue is to determine 'Is this critical to the family's happiness *today* to create a power struggle?' What other ways can this issue be tackled together as a team?

6. Food intolerances: dairy causes aggression in our son. We see his behavior change about one hour after consumption and lasts 1-6 hours depending on quantity consumed. Also, high fructose corn syrup (not sugar), artificial colors: red and yellow. See "The Feingold Diet" on-line.

7. 'Meet the underlying needs' is my mantra. I was glad to see so many posters suggesting the focus on working to solve the need, rather than focusing on eliminating the behavior.

HTH, Pat


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
1. Fill love tank. See "The Five Love Languages for Children". The author suggests that the five are: acts of service, physical touch, gifts, affirmation, quality time. We generally value all; but there is usually a primary 'love language' and each adult or child feels more full of love, or empty of love, if their love language isn't being "spoken" to them consistently, daily.











I think I have that book! (But of course, never make time to read all the fab books I have!!!









Pat, I meant to post this earlier - thank you for taking the time to post your long list.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Tanya,









Thank you so much for taking the time to post the fabulous update!!!


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

How wonderful. You rock!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Deleted because I just read your update. So glad things are better for you!


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