# POLL: Do You Feel: depressive feelings/hollow feeling in stomach when breastfeeding?



## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

*www.d-mer.org*

Dysphoric milk ejection reflex (D-MER) is something that has been discussed here before on several other threads when it was nameless, but I wanted to bring it up again for a couple reasons:

-For new mamas
-To bring attention to the new website
-Becuase we discovered the mechanism and treatment for D-MER

To sum it up, it kinda feels like this:
"What I was experiencing, about 10-15 times a day, was a sickening hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach. There would be a strong aversion to food. I wouldn't feel sad, but I would feel "icky and yucky" and pretty hopeless and melancholy. I sometimes would feel down right suicidal for a passing moment. It was a feeling I seemed to have associated with strong feelings of worry and guilt in the past, because when I first started experiencing the sensation I kept searching for what I was feeling guilty or worried about. It turns out there was nothing; it was just that same sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I had experienced in the past for other reasons. It would last for about one to two minutes every time, which sounds very brief, but it was so overwhelming that it would grab my attention from nearly anything I was doing. I would end up needing to focus my way through it, nearly like I needed to for a contraction during labor. The rest of the day I would be fine, in fact sometimes I was great. "

_Other mothers use some of these words to describe it:_

67% of mother experience a hollow feeling in their stomach

55% have feeling of anxiety

55% feels like there is something in the pit of their stomach

50% have feelings of depression

47% experience sadness

44% of mothers feel hopelessness

44% describe it with "yuckiness"

44% have general "negative" emotions

41% say it's an "ickyness"

41% experience a feeling of dread

35% have an urge to "get away"

38% experience irritability

29% experience a sense of guilt or shame

29% feel tearful

23% feel nauseous

23% of mothers say the feeling is familiar of the past

23% feel panic

20% of feelings of aggression

17% suffer a loss of appetite

14% have suicidal thoughts

14% feel homesickness like feelings

*I have been doing some research on this topic (which is different then just the intense thirst or the plain nausea some mothers get while breastfeeding) and I want to see possibly what percentage of mothers suffer from dysphoric milk ejection reflex (D-MER)- hence the poll. It's very unofficial, but it's a start.*

Thanks all for your poll votes and for any additional comments you might have to add, to keep this bumped up for awhile!


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Yes, I do, and I think "hopeless" is a good way to describe the feeling. Mine only lasts 5-10 seconds, but during that time I do feel like nothing will ever be right or good again.

Thanks for posting this. I think it's a good thing for first-time mamas to be aware of.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.

Gee, thanks, rub it in!









Actually I had those "normal" sensations with let down with my first two children, but this one has been totally different. As one mother described it to me, "like a reverse orgasm. It was like I experienced every possible negative and positive emotion all at once, and it was overwhelming and not exactly pleasant."


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Out of my last 10 doula clients, I had one who experienced this. She just pushed through it and it got better after a few months.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

I do feel "hollow" but I associate it with the hollowness I feel when I'm really thirsty...which of course makes no sense to anyone but me but it's the only way to describe it.


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## damyen's mommy (May 5, 2005)

Quote:

I do feel "hollow" but I associate it with the hollowness I feel when I'm really thirsty...which of course makes no sense to anyone but me but it's the only way to describe it.
Nope makes sense to me too. I use to get his feeling a first and yep ITA


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoomaYula* 
Out of my last 10 doula clients, I had one who experienced this. She just pushed through it and it got better after a few months.

That's interesting, did you ask your other 9 clients if they experienced this by chance? Or are you going on the fact that they didn't mention it? It would be helpful to know as I try to figure out the numbers...


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

Interesting. I wrote a post about this years ago and got no responses, so I assumed I was just weird. Mine only lasted a few seconds and as the kids got older it went away. I like the "reverse orgasm" description.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bethla* 
Interesting. I wrote a post about this years ago and got no responses, so I assumed I was just weird. Mine only lasted a few seconds and as the kids got older it went away. I like the "reverse orgasm" description.

Do you have a link to the post by chance? There are several other threads about them....

1
2
3
4


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

ah doula, your baby is so completely adorable! I generally think babies are pretty dang cute but yours is something special!


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Megan~* 
ah doula, your baby is so completely adorable! I generally think babies are pretty dang cute but yours is something special!

Oh your too sweet! She is so much older now, I need to update my sig!! Here's is an recent one!! I clicked on your pics and your kids...WOW those eyes!!


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## kittyhead (Oct 28, 2005)

nursing makes me queezy. it was really bad at the beginning, i would gag sometimes when my son latched on. now he is almost 2 and i still get a wave of nausea when i let down, especially if i have just eaten, but nothing like before. never made me feel sad or depressed, but i have heard of that... hormones are funny things.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Oh wow. Thank you for posting this. I was seriously starting to think something was wrong with me.
I'm not too sure about the depressive feelings but I certainly get the nausea even now that my nursling is 2.
We had latch problems at the beginning which lasted for 3 months so I'm not sure if the hollow feeling was because of that too.
Bf-ing for me isn't really a pleasant experience and it's only been lately that I get to have a few warm fuzzies every now and then. Especially if DS is being extra loving.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Bump for the new week!


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## McMomma (Jan 8, 2008)

When I first started nursing I had such intense rushes of euphoria I sometimes had to catch my breath.







When my periods returned at about 10 weeks, I changed to where I had sad feelings when I nursed including thoughts that it would be bad to harm myself because ds needed me.







Those thoughts are not so intense now but I do get the hollow dehydrated feeling.


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## ElkMtnsMama (Feb 26, 2008)

I voted no, but I do often get a terribly thirsty feeling when DD begins nursing. This was much worse during the first six months or so, bad enough that I had to always make sure to keep a big glass of water handy when feeding her, or I would have to inetrrupt her to go get one! I just figured that it was my body's way of reminding me to stay hydrated. No depressive or queezy feelings ever, but also not the calming or relaxing feelings some people are reporting.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElkMtnsMama* 
I voted no, but I do often get a terribly thirsty feeling when DD begins nursing. This was much worse during the first six months or so, bad enough that I had to always make sure to keep a big glass of water handy when feeding her, or I would have to inetrrupt her to go get one! I just figured that it was my body's way of reminding me to stay hydrated. No depressive or queezy feelings ever, but also not the calming or relaxing feelings some people are reporting.

Yes, the intense thirst and the nausea some people report separately seem to be a different unrelated thing.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Interesting. I experience those hopeless feelings, but not linked to breastfeeding. In the early days I would have strong sleepiness and thirst. All throughout my life intense feelings of elation were associated with thirst for me, and I once wondered if it was significant that anti-depressants lead to dry mouth, but I didn't get euphoria with breastfeeding thirst.

Nursing an older child, latching on has sometimes produced intense feelings of panic, feeling entrapped and needing to fight my way out. I would induce muscle cramps or invoke a sensation elsewhere in my body to help calm that response. Or sometimes I'd just end the nursing session. But I imagine that is unrelated as well.

Are the depressive episodes while nursing worse at certain times of the day for those of you who experience them?


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
Interesting. I experience those hopeless feelings, but not linked to breastfeeding. In the early days I would have strong sleepiness and thirst. All throughout my life intense feelings of elation were associated with thirst for me, and I once wondered if it was significant that anti-depressants lead to dry mouth, but I didn't get euphoria with breastfeeding thirst.

Nursing an older child, latching on has sometimes produced intense feelings of panic, feeling entrapped and needing to fight my way out. I would induce muscle cramps or invoke a sensation elsewhere in my body to help calm that response. Or sometimes I'd just end the nursing session. But I imagine that is unrelated as well.

Are the depressive episodes while nursing worse at certain times of the day for those of you who experience them?

I like that question, I have never asked it before.
Mine is worse in the early/late evening, before I go to bed but when my nursling is going to sleeping, or sleeping.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I feel extremely anxious right before and during let down, and for a bit thereafter. Thirsty, too.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

any more mamas?
I am hoping to get 100. Souds like DR HALE mayb be talking with my LC this week and we want NUMBERS!!!!


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## aschmied (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)

Well, I had a precipitous birth (1.5 hours, and that only 'cuz I didn't push in the car - truly awful...







). No, I don't have this, for which I am grateful. I never have enjoyed letdown (first born wasn't precipitous) but that's a physical thing, apparently linked to oversupply and overactive letdown. It just hurts.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aschmied* 
Well, I had a precipitous birth (1.5 hours, and that only 'cuz I didn't push in the car - truly awful...







). No, I don't have this, for which I am grateful. I never have enjoyed letdown (first born wasn't precipitous) but that's a physical thing, apparently linked to oversupply and overactive letdown. It just hurts.









Oh, thanks mama, that's helpful!!


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## tree-hugger (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)

I have this problem with nursing, but the birth was the opposite of precipitous--4 days of labor, 24 hours of pushing, homebirth turned into C-section.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tree-hugger* 
I have this problem with nursing, but the birth was the opposite of precipitous--4 days of labor, 24 hours of pushing, homebirth turned into C-section.

Oh hugs mama! But thanks for letting me know!


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

ETA: Updating research resources, I will post more info when I am done

if anyone has the time, a poll!! Thanks!

Sorry if ya' all feel like a bunch of guinea pigs!!


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## slowjig (Jun 9, 2005)

Ahdoula, thank you so much for continuing to chase this issue down.

Typically, I experience a horrid feeling of numbed panic and dread about 30 seconds before my milk lets down. I now can predict ejection just because I feel like such utter crap immediately before. It's not exactly a physical sensation, but the emotional weight is so oppressive it can feel like a metaphorical weight pushing me down. Usually, the feeling goes away after a few minutes of nursing my almost 3-month-old.

I won't discontinue nursing, but while I'm experiencing the horrible feelings, the thought of quitting crosses my mind. I also toyed with the thought of going on anti-depressants, but so far I've not pursued that.

For the record, I did not experience this with my first son. My pregnancies were similar; I gained the same amount of weight ( a lot), and had scheduled c-sections for both (please no flaming). This pregnancy was actually far less emotionally stressful than my first due to decreased job pressures. I do think that my milk ejection reflex is even more violent than during my first nursing experience.

If I think of anything else, I'll post. Thanks again!


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)


My labour was 15 hours and I had severe D-MER.


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## Fanny1460 (Jul 1, 2005)

I replied No and I've been bf for nearly 2 years now...


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## KLM99 (Aug 9, 2007)

I replied yes - I'm so glad to hear so many others have this problem too. Whenever I start breastfeeding, I suddenly feel really sad and empty and I think to myself, "hm, I wonder what's wrong" and then I realize, oh, I'm just breastfeeding again. It passes within about 15 seconds. Very strange. It doesn't really bother me, but it is odd.


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## ellymay (Aug 4, 2005)

Yup though w/ each child it has gotten less and less noticable. For me it makes me feel like I am homesick.


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## principii (Jan 26, 2008)

I didn't realize until I came across this thread that this is what I'm experiencing! I just thought I was a freak, or that it's PPD "on occasion"... wow wow wow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)

I had a four hour labor and delivery, hm.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

Wow this is new to me, but Im sure I had this while nursing my DD.
I would feel soooo homesick and anxious at the same time, it was the weirdest feeling in the world. i was so sad for a few minutes every nursing. I just wanted my mom LOL Oh and that feeling in the pit of my stomach too.
I pushed through and it got better, but I never got my appitite back while I was nursing.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks for everyones replies!

Something a little more "fun" now. I am working on putting together advocacy materials (hand out, poems, art, etc.) Anyone want to vote for the favorite photo that best shows how D-MER feels?

Here is the album link, about 13 to choose from! Thanks for all your help mamas!!

-voting closed- thanks for you help! Photos can be seen on my blog!


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## bellacymom (Apr 3, 2008)

I clicked yes but I only had those feelings in the beginning. Now occasionally I will feel strange kinda like restless leg syndrome which I have but it seems to be brought on by a letdown.


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## tree-hugger (Jul 18, 2007)

My first baby is 3 months old. I'm wondering if the D MER is likely to go away anytime soon or if I'm going to be stuck with it until she weans. Also, has anybody found anything that can be done to make it go away or become less severe?


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tree-hugger* 
My first baby is 3 months old. I'm wondering if the D MER is likely to go away anytime soon or if I'm going to be stuck with it until she weans. Also, has anybody found anything that can be done to make it go away or become less severe?

Well, this is something that being worked on. So far everything we have is very unofficial and done by trial and error, until further lab work is done. And I am not sure if the suggestions work for everyone or not. (and take this advice as you would advice from a friend, I am not a medical professional!)

-nicotine seems to make it better (not telling to smoke just letting you know!)
-alcohol seem to makes it better (not telling to drink just letting you know!)
-a full stomach and eating in general seems to make it worse
-an empty stomach seems to lessen it
-D-MER seems worse with spontaneous letdowns so try to minimize them
-It seems to be better during the night-so nurse more at night so maybe there would be less day time nursings
-Caffeine may aggravate it
-Keep yourself distracted while nursing, often mothers notice it much less when talking to another person (in person or on the phone)

Some mothers find it goes away with in 6 weeks, I have found mothers who still have it while nursing their 2 years olds. Though as the baby gets older the frequency seems to lessen. The D-MER forum that I posted about in the first post is a good place to ask some of these questions too, as that forum continues to get more members.

hang in there mama!!


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## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.

Me too!


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## principii (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
-nicotine seems to make it better (not telling to smoke just letting you know!)
-alcohol seem to makes it better (not telling to drink just letting you know!)
-a full stomach and eating in general seems to make it worse
-an empty stomach seems to lessen it
-D-MER seems worse with spontaneous letdowns so try to minimize them
-It seems to be better during the night-so nurse more at night so maybe there would be less day time nursings
-Caffeine may aggravate it
-Keep yourself distracted while nursing, often mothers notice it much less when talking to another person (in person or on the phone)

Okay, this is really interesting. I hate to admit it but I smoke about 5-7 cigarettes a day, and will occasionally have a glass of wine or a beer in the evenings. I find that when I've gone without a smoke (I'm trying to quit) for more than four hours, the depressed feeling that comes when I nurse is almost unbearable. I primarily feel GUILTY - to the point of suicide (almost). It's just the worst WORST guilt feeling I've EVER had. When I'm hungry I find it's better, also!







: This isn't good because it's triggered my past issues with food (sadly, an eating disorder).
Anyway, yes, when I talk to others too, it's MUCH better. In fact that is the most helpful thing (this is all in retrospect... I didn't know until yesterday that I wasn't going insane! Ha.) Unfortunately I don't know anybody in person around here (yet... though ha again, we've lived here almost two years) and the only person I really speak to on the phone is my mom. (which is or isn't a good thing, depending).

Okay I didn't mean for this to end up as a history of my life.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *principii* 
Okay, this is really interesting. I hate to admit it but I smoke about 5-7 cigarettes a day, and will occasionally have a glass of wine or a beer in the evenings. I find that when I've gone without a smoke (I'm trying to quit) for more than four hours, the depressed feeling that comes when I nurse is almost unbearable. I primarily feel GUILTY - to the point of suicide (almost). It's just the worst WORST guilt feeling I've EVER had. When I'm hungry I find it's better, also!







: This isn't good because it's triggered my past issues with food (sadly, an eating disorder).
Anyway, yes, when I talk to others too, it's MUCH better. In fact that is the most helpful thing (this is all in retrospect... I didn't know until yesterday that I wasn't going insane! Ha.) Unfortunately I don't know anybody in person around here (yet... though ha again, we've lived here almost two years) and the only person I really speak to on the phone is my mom. (which is or isn't a good thing, depending).

Okay I didn't mean for this to end up as a history of my life.









Mama you and I are the same page! I have a ED history too, as well as some mild self harm tendencies, so the whole guilt thing can really send me up a wall, and I do dread eating becuase I know it will be so much worse after I do.

Smaller bits of food are better, it's always the worst after a big meal.

I use nicotine in a medicinal sense, I am not a "real" smoker, but I do it at the end of the day, when the D-MER is worse, as a coping technique and as a "reward" if I get through my whole day with the kids without destructive behavior (ED stuff, self harm stuff, etc.)


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Bump for Friday! Can we get 25 more votes?


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## elizaMM (Nov 10, 2007)

ahdoula, just a thought : you'd probably get more votes and a more representative sample with a subject line that lets reader know its a poll. I passed up this thread for several days thinking some poor gal had an unfortunate problem and only viewed it when I started wondering how there could be three pages discussing it.

I was surprised to see the high rate of "yes" answers, then realized the sample is biased since participants self-select.

Maybe "poll: do you feel... " as a subject line would attract more participants.

Good luck and kudos for researching the topic.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Well Duh! I knew there must be a better way to do it, but hadn't put my finger on it! Thanks for the tip and the bump! I'll go ahead now!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizaMM* 
ahdoula, just a thought : you'd probably get more votes and a more representative sample with a subject line that lets reader know its a poll. I passed up this thread for several days thinking some poor gal had an unfortunate problem and only viewed it when I started wondering how there could be three pages discussing it.

I was surprised to see the high rate of "yes" answers, then realized the sample is biased since participants self-select.

Maybe "poll: do you feel... " as a subject line would attract more participants.

Good luck and kudos for researching the topic.


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## dimibella (Feb 5, 2007)

I voted no because the majority of the time this did not happen to me, BUT when my cycles returned and I was nursing DD it would happen every now and then. It was awful.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dimibella* 
I voted no because the majority of the time this did not happen to me, BUT when my cycles returned and I was nursing DD it would happen every now and then. It was awful.

That could be a yes too, I am finding some mothers find it happens when they get their period back, or when they get pregnant and are still nursing. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to hormones and obviously pregnancy and returning cycles change hormones!!

Thanks for your post, the info is helpful!


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I didn't feel that, however, I did sometimes feel very irritable or even angry prior to and during letdown. (I was an ep'er, don't know if that had something to do with it- but it wasn't psychological, it was definitely hormonal)


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
I didn't feel that, however, I did sometimes feel very irritable or even angry prior to and during letdown. (I was an ep'er, don't know if that had something to do with it- but it wasn't psychological, it was definitely hormonal)

That counts! Here is a run down of a lot of the words D-MER mamas use:

67% of mother experience a hollow feeling in their stomach

55% have feeling of anxiety

55% feels like there is something in the pit of their stomach

50% have feelings of depression

47% experience sadness

44% of mothers feel hopelessness

44% describe it with "yuckiness"

44% have general "negative" emotions

41% say it's an "ickyness"

41% experience a feeling of dread

35% have an urge to "get away"

38% experience irritability

29% experience a sense of guilt or shame

29% feel tearful

23% feel nauseous

23% of mothers say the feeling is familiar of the past

23% feel panic

20% of feelings of aggression

17% suffer a loss of appetite

14% have suicidal thoughts

14% feel homesickness like feelings


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm so glad to see this thread. I was on the previous thread when I was still nursing DS2. I'm 34 weeks pregnant and have started to worry about this again. I experienced it with both of my other DC and I am dreading it this time.

For me it's a tightening in my chest and an intense FLOOD of negative emotions that I actually can't even piece together into one thought. It's just "everything's horrible" I feel so gross & sad.

I'm just really glad to know I'm not alone and hopefully will find some answers.







to you all.


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## Evenstar (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
...

For me it's a tightening in my chest and an intense FLOOD of negative emotions that I actually can't even piece together into one thought. It's just "everything's horrible" I feel so gross & sad.

This is a good description of how I feel. I don't usually feel sad or depressed, though. It's more like gross, disgusted, irritated, etc. I never feel it toward DS, but almost always feel it toward DH. After so long, I figured out that it only occured while BF and that it was really not about DH, but somehow those thoughts became an automatic reaction, I think. Also, in my case, BF made me feel warm and fuzzy for several months and these negative feelings didn't start to occur until DS was around 10 mos old.

ETA: I haven't started my period yet


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evenstar* 
This is a good description of how I feel. I don't usually feel sad or depressed, though. It's more like gross, disgusted, irritated, etc. I never feel it toward DS, but almost always feel it toward DH. After so long, I figured out that it only occured while BF and that it was really not about DH, but somehow those thoughts became an automatic reaction, I think. Also, in my case, BF made me feel warm and fuzzy for several months and these negative feelings didn't start to occur until DS was around 10 mos old.

ETA: I haven't started my period yet

I never felt the negative feelings towards my DC either which somehow made me feel better about the whole thing. Maybe looking for a silver lining?


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## raeinparis (Sep 26, 2005)

i just voted yes and i'm the 100th voter. i had it bad with my first for the first few months (unpleasant birth -- forceps and lots of cuts plus tearing and messed up tailbone) and a bit with my second (much nicer birth, no epidural, laboured in water). it has gone away but i've never been mad keen on bf.


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## jencen (Nov 29, 2007)

That is so crazy...my whole life I had this nipple sensitivity and would try to express it to my lover as feelings of homesickness. I thought I was the only one. For some strange, inexplicable reason, breastfeeding does not stimulate the same response, go figure.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jencen* 
That is so crazy...my whole life I had this nipple sensitivity and would try to express it to my lover as feelings of homesickness. I thought I was the only one. For some strange, inexplicable reason, breastfeeding does not stimulate the same response, go figure.









How weird! I am 34 weeks pregnant so haven't started breastfeeding yet, but I get this "homesick" feeling too - that's exactly how I describe it as well. It doesn't last & I don't find it overwhelming to deal with. I'm expecting to get the same sensation when breastfeeding but perhaps not, if I follow your example.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jencen* 
That is so crazy...my whole life I had this nipple sensitivity and would try to express it to my lover as feelings of homesickness. I thought I was the only one. For some strange, inexplicable reason, breastfeeding does not stimulate the same response, go figure.









Okay, it's really really weird that someone else is having it not only when nursing. What prompted me to come searching for this thread again was that last night DH was playing with my nipples and I got a similar feeling as I do when I'm nursing (Yet not as strong) and I rememebered I had to start getting ready. Weird.


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## the elyse (Apr 15, 2006)

i have this too, and it's slowly going away as my ds gets older. i remember on the first day how it felt like i had tiny little strings running from my throat to my stomach that were being tightened, and the depressing feeling and sinking stomach...very ewk. i asked my apprentice midwife (also my good friend) who nursed her two boys and she didn't remember ever feeling like that. if ds stays latched on for more than 20 minutes, i get what feels like restless leg syndrome all over my body. it's nasty.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I have experienced this. But I think it may be linked to nutrition. Isn't everything?









I experienced it a lot at first after the baby was born. But now I have been supplementing myself with good fats and vitamins and hopefully fixing my thyroid...

So usually, lately, it is a feeling of pure elation and love for my new baby. But there have still been a few times with the hollow feeling. I have also experienced it before baby was born, but I would describe it as kind of a "homesick" feeling too.

But I always feel insanely thirsty.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
Okay, it's really really weird that someone else is having it not only when nursing. What prompted me to come searching for this thread again was that last night DH was playing with my nipples and I got a similar feeling as I do when I'm nursing (Yet not as strong) and I rememebered I had to start getting ready. Weird.

Not so weird actually! There are a whole bunch of moms that get it with nipple play but not breastfeeding, or nipple play AND breastfeeding, or bfding and not nipple play...and I found a couple threads on line from women who had never breastfed but got it with nipple play, they called it "sad nipple syndrome"


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
Not so weird actually! There are a whole bunch of moms that get it with nipple play but not breastfeeding, or nipple play AND breastfeeding, or bfding and not nipple play...and I found a couple threads on line from women who had never breastfed but got it with nipple play, they called it "sad nipple syndrome"

Oh WOW! I'm so blown away that I'm not just a weirdo.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
Oh WOW! I'm so blown away that I'm not just a weirdo.









Here are some of those threads:
http://community.livejournal.com/vag...408.html?nc=29
http://community.livejournal.com/vag...771#t152686771
http://community.livejournal.com/vag...a/8622409.html

Hope those help you feel EVEN less weird!


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Sad nipple syndrome! I have sad nipple syndrome! Haha.


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## Lily Eve (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.

Me too! Theoretically, even if the entire world were crumbling before my very eyes I wouldn't mind in the least if I was nursing! I feel relaxed beyond belief when I have letdowns. I feel nothing but peace, love, calmness and happiness.


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## sophi4ka (Jun 28, 2007)

Interesting...
I actually don't feel anything, don't even feel the let-down
I tend to get depressive/anxious/melancholic/whipy/etc in general, but aparently not while breastfeeding


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## WaturMama (Oct 6, 2006)

I voted "no" because I feel don't feel depressed nor a hollow feeling in my stomach. Emotionally I usually feel cozy, more relaxed, and like the flood gates of all the love I feel for my ds are opened up. But when I started reading responses I saw that I do have one thing in common--I do sometime feeling nauseous. It started when I was pregnant with number 2 (ended in miscarriage at end of 1st trimester). But since then has happened, though less intensely, usually in the days before my period. I haven't read the whole thread yet but wonder if others find any of their symptoms fluctuating with their cycles.

I did have some feelings of depression during my first pregancy and it was very, very tough. My heart goes out to those of you experiencing this.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaturMama* 

I did have some feelings of depression during my first pregancy and it was very, very tough. My heart goes out to those of you experiencing this.

I can only speak for myself but mine is not depression related. I am fine the rest of the time just not during let down. It only lasts about 20 seconds. It is bothersome because it is something I have come to dread but it's not as bad (for me) as PPD. So I guess that's something.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
I can only speak for myself but mine is not depression related. I am fine the rest of the time just not during let down. It only lasts about 20 seconds. It is bothersome because it is something I have come to dread but it's not as bad (for me) as PPD. So I guess that's something.









Yes that's right D-MER is VERY different then depression. It can FEEL depressing, but it is fleeting like the pp said and then you can be fine, even fabulous, the rest of the time, until another letdown!

It is also different then just plain nausea. That is a documented and research problem and is just the one physical symptom with let down (not fun by any means, but it is just the nausea.) D-MER can make your stomach turn, but it effects mothers emotionally as well.

HTH clear things up!


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## UrbanSimplicity (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahdoula* 
I have been talking to un-named lactation guru today and she was thinking about the cause beiong connected to precipitous birth. I know I had one, but what about you other women with D-MER (depressive milk ejection reflex) Did you guys have long slow or normal labor and births? Or precipitous births? (defined as a labor that lasts less than three hours.)

I haven't read through this most recent thread yet but wanted to add that my dd's birth was average-longinsh----17 hours start to finish and went quite smoothly.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Not at all. I often get a feeling of deep relaxation when the MER kicks in. So I do have a visceral/mental reaction, but it isn't negative.

edit to add:

When I first starting nursing my first child, she was born without a latch at 36 weeks. It took me a month to establish, and she (and all my babies) have had super latch at first. Tear your nipples off. After that was finished, I did have bad feelings during the let down for about a month and a half.

Like I was a nothing but an animal, with holes and leaking parts. It would get worse if my DH would touch me while I was establishing the nursing session.

But it passed. At about 2.5 months, I got my first shot of "relaxation" nursing letdown.


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## UrbanSimplicity (Oct 26, 2005)

I've posted in another thread about this, but for the record here, I feel terribly melancholy, aching, homesick and hopeless. I TOTALLY lose my appetite (even if I have an empty stomach and my dh just prepared a huge plate of yummy food---he'd feel so bad if we were about to eat and then dd needed to nurse) which is only regained after the nursing session. The immediate, intense feelings last for maybe 5-10 minutes? With the first few minutes being the worst.

It lasted the first year of nursing and slowly diminished even though we were still nursing up to 15/day until fairly recently. (dd is 26 mos now). btw-- my period returned at 4 months despite 9 MONTHS of exclusive breastfeeding (no pacifier or anything either.)

I have had it like twice (super mildly) when dd nurses recently and I am now 7.5 mos pg.

But what I really want to add is that I used to get this feeling when I was little (like 8-12 yrs?), often during family gatherings when everyone was chatting and I was quiet and I would feel just awful, very homesick and strange. I had it a handful of times later in life in similar situations. In fact, I used to wonder if something awfull had once happened to me at a family gathering that I had totally repressed. (i really don't think so).

As a funny side note: I was in a Catholic grammer school at the time and we were taught that if we were meant to enter the religious life, we would get our "calling". So I thought this strange sensation was Mary 'calling' me to the sisterhood and I was sad because I really didn't want to be a nun.


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## UrbanSimplicity (Oct 26, 2005)

OK, sorry for the serial posting but also wanted to add that I've often thought it was based on a nutritional or hormonal imbalance. And after reading The Mood Cure I thought it could be an amino acid imbalance.

I think an important question here is: how many of us have histories of anxiety or depression? I do.

That's all for now, I swear


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

A little thread bump never hurts!


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Friday13th* 
I do feel "hollow" but I associate it with the hollowness I feel when I'm really thirsty...which of course makes no sense to anyone but me but it's the only way to describe it.

Actually, that does make sense to me!

I was wondering - I haven't read everything on this but I'm gonna - I don't feel like I have D-MER... but how does this relate to nursing aversion during pregnancy? Because all those symptoms were EXACTLY the hell of nursing when pregnant, and I did end up with PPD when tandem nursing. I thought they were unrelated, and actually I felt that TNing was keeping me sane, since "at least I'm doing _this_ right!" when I was incompetent and failing at everything else. In my PPD mind, that is.







But it's just weird to see that list that so exactly describes the nursing aversion that comes with nursing pregnant and tandem nursing. Could be related to a prolactin issue, in D-MER mamas, perhaps?


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## elizaMM (Nov 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brooklyn lisa* 
I think an important question here is: how many of us have histories of anxiety or depression?

I do but I DON'T feel anything negative when breastfeeding. But I'm on meds too and feeling fine otherwise (well, except the occasional crying spell...).


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brooklyn lisa* 
OK, sorry for the serial posting but also wanted to add that I've often thought it was based on a nutritional or hormonal imbalance. And after reading The Mood Cure I thought it could be an amino acid imbalance.

I think an important question here is: how many of us have histories of anxiety or depression? I do.

That's all for now, I swear









Keep it coming Lisa! Your input is GREAT! The LCs involved are (right now) looking at subclinical (meaning a GP would think it was so mild he wouldn't mention it to you after getting tested) thyroid dysfunction (on the hyper activity side) or Oxytocin/Vasopressin malfunction.

Based on the questionnaires, LOTS of the mamas don't have history of depression/anxiety or sexual abuse but of course some do. There are enough that don't (in the majority) that it rules it out as a cause.

All the LCs and MDs working on this agree that it is a *physiological* problem, NOT a _psychological_. Good news really becuase it's not anyone's "fault" and makes it easier to fix!


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
Actually, that does make sense to me!

I was wondering - I haven't read everything on this but I'm gonna - I don't feel like I have D-MER... but how does this relate to nursing aversion during pregnancy? Because all those symptoms were EXACTLY the hell of nursing when pregnant, and I did end up with PPD when tandem nursing. I thought they were unrelated, and actually I felt that TNing was keeping me sane, since "at least I'm doing _this_ right!" when I was incompetent and failing at everything else. In my PPD mind, that is.







But it's just weird to see that list that so exactly describes the nursing aversion that comes with nursing pregnant and tandem nursing. Could be related to a prolactin issue, in D-MER mamas, perhaps?

Well if it is hormone related then having it come up with nursing when pregnant makes sense. I have had some mamas tell me they DO feel they have D-MER, but didn't have it until they got pregnant, signaling SOME change in the pituitary (Oxytocin, Vasopressin, Thyroid) And some who feel it got worse when there menses returned, another hormone shift.

All the thoughts coming out are great!! Thanks mama!

If anyone missed the questionnaire it's on the D-MER website, www.D-MER.org
It's for mamas with D-MER.


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Page 4 bump!


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Another little bump for good measure!


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Very interesting stuff. Never heard of it before. My heart goes out to you that deal with it.







:


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Anyone with D-MER take blue or black cohosh during their pregnancy? Might have increased the amount of oxytocin receptors but we need to hear from other D-MER mothers to know where to go from here....


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Here is a D-MER awarness peice on YouTube if anyone is intresting in viewing it!


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Huh. And I thought it was only me...


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

There was a mama somewhere that post about D-MER prehaps being thier own bodies version of "normal." I found someone else who feels this way and I was working that angle for a FAQ section of the new webstie...but now I can't find the quote from the mama? Are you out there....? Where did I read that?


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
Huh. And I thought it was only me...

I love it when I find a new mama who thought they were alone! Hugs! You're not! I'd love to hear about your experience with it...


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Bumping fore new mamas!


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## rugbymom (Mar 21, 2007)

Oh my goodness! I am practically crying. I never liked breastfeeding, and never really considered why. I don't feel depressed, but more like "ugh". My son is now 11 months & he hardly nurses anymore. He never seemed to love it either. (I probably didn't make it enjoyable.) I had envisioned myself nursing longer, but I'm trying to be happy that I made it as long as I did. I don't know if having support from like-minded people would have helped me nurse longer, but it would have been nice to know that it can happen. It just seems so silly that breastfeeding is so hard- I mean where is the survival instinct in that?!


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rugbymom* 
Oh my goodness! I am practically crying. I never liked breastfeeding, and never really considered why. I don't feel depressed, but more like "ugh". My son is now 11 months & he hardly nurses anymore. He never seemed to love it either. (I probably didn't make it enjoyable.) I had envisioned myself nursing longer, but I'm trying to be happy that I made it as long as I did. I don't know if having support from like-minded people would have helped me nurse longer, but it would have been nice to know that it can happen. It just seems so silly that breastfeeding is so hard- I mean where is the survival instinct in that?!

I hope you visited the new website!! www.d-mer.org


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

There is a new facebook group:

500 or more with D-MER

that has JUST been started. The purpose is to show the very high number of women being affected.

Please join!


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## Sol_Solved (Aug 18, 2005)

Wow, I absolutely have this! The hollow, dreadful feelings associated with my nipples started pretty much as soon as I was pregnant, and now that I'm breastfeeding and pumping it's even worse. I wish it lasted a few seconds, though, I feel it all the time I pump for, unless I can get distracted enough. I've been calling it physical nausea + emotional nausea; it feels as if there's this ball of negative feelings that I just can't "throw up".


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## Serenyd (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.


I get very relaxed and feel very loving towards anyone in the vicinity. All feelings of anger or sadness diminish. I guess I assumed everyone felt like this ... scary.


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## randomacts (Jun 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I've never heard of this before, and it surprises me that some mamas experience this. What I experience with letdown is exactly the opposite-- I get a cozy, drowsy feeling that feels just like how I feel when I crawl into my bed after a long day.


Yea that! I had no idea other women felt differently, oppositely of that! Thanks for this thread, it helps to know that others aren't as lucky.


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## shannonnc78 (May 15, 2008)

I get a food aversion and a hollowish feeling in my stomach when DS latches on. I wondered if I was the only one, but it's good to know I'm not!


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

Had I just read the poll title, I almost might've voted "yes" because during the entire time I was nursing my DD (who is 13.5 months and weaned now), I was terribly depressed about it, felt like I had no privacy, hated being touched, had really sensitive nipples to the point I would cry sometimes when she wanted to nurse ... but after reading through the threads and the descriptions of D-MER, I am pretty certain what I had was rather a physiological and hormonal issue. Yes, I had feelings of anxiety and depression and hopelessness, but I could not associate them with letdown nor did it cause an emptiness in the pit of my stomach as described by many women in this thread. That emptiness feeling, to me, is like when someone gives you incredibly bad news, bad news of the worst kind like the death of a close family member, etc. But I do not remember experiencing that when nursing. Likewise, I never felt the euphoric feeling others described... Hmm.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

I had this when I was using the breast pump trying to get labor started. (I was being threatened with an induction, and noticed I could get contractions this way.) I thought of it as some kind of a pminitive fear/wanting to escape, feeling just too terrible to describe.

After dd was born, I never had it. (I did have feelings of aggression and wanting to get away later on when she was a toddler with a bad latch, but not this same thing.) The day before I gave birth I still had it, the moment after, no longer.

Oh... and I have connected that home sick thirsty feeling with wanting to be nursed and bury my head in my mother's arm. I think that what I long for is the unique feeling of nourishment and peace I must have felt when I was nursed. The world was ok and nothing else existed in that very moment. (I was only nursed for about a year, so I don't have any real memories of it, though... just would make sense to me.)


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## MountainMamaGC (Jun 23, 2008)

I did maybe for the first 2 weeks. I would feel anxious while feeding her. Like butterflies in my stomach.


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## tree-hugger (Jul 18, 2007)

I showed my mom the new D-MER website as a way to explain to her why I feel so dreadful when nursing my LO. She says that she felt the same way when she nursed my older sister and that the bad feelings is the reason why she stopped nursing her at 6 weeks. Is a genetic link involved in this problem of negative emotions with breastfeeding?


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## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

No, that isn't what the evidence is showing us thus far. There are some mother daughter pairs but there are just as many that aren't. _ETA: that and the fact that a good amount of mothers do not have D-MER with their first or second babies but will with their third._ It *looks* like environmental effect on dopamine or dopamine receptors over time (exposure to too many radio waves or some such thing; that's just a nonsense example to show you what I mean) ....OR individual's life stress experiencing altering brain receptors in the brain....one such study, not ours, done on rats:
_"It is concluded that interactions between an individual's experience of stress at adulthood, together with other environmental events in their history can be important determinants of brain DA receptor levels."_
Our educated guess right now is that women have NOT been experiencing this from the beginning of time. It's something our life in the western world or the environmental effect has caused. A negative evolution of sorts. That is just a guess though. An educated one. But best not to quote me


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## pdxmomazon (Oct 13, 2005)

This is exactly how my wife described breastfeeding our first daughter. I can't wait to show her this. Thanks.


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## donnaworkingmomto4 (Oct 26, 2008)

I had this bad three years ago when I had to exclusively pump... felt like depression/suicide/yuck... when I was able to start nursing around 5 months pp it got so much better and so did my PPD.

I'm 30 weeks pg now and still breastfeeding a toddler... just in the past couple weeks I am starting to experience this feeling again.







I had forgotten about it, it had been so long...


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## ohiomommy1122 (Jul 7, 2006)

I had this feeling in the first few months of BFing my last 2 I thought it was maybe post partum depression but it ONLY HAPPENED for a short time at the beginning of every nursing session and its AWEFUL its soooooooooo overwhelming I thought this was just me I'm going to have to reaserch this now, thanks for posting


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bethla* 
Interesting. I wrote a post about this years ago and got no responses, so I assumed I was just weird.









: I thought it was just me. I've been nursing for the last 50 months, and 28 of them have been tandem. I never got that good cozy sleepy feeling you are "supposed" to get. Well, sometimes I got sleepy.


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## arahzel (Apr 29, 2007)

I didn't get any of those feelings listed. I mostly get a hazy feeling. Kinda like the edges of my brain are fuzzy. It's not that I can't concentrate, I have to wade through the muck to focus on anything.


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