# Grief from losing friend because they discipline violently



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Has anyone dealt with this?

I thought I was over it a long time ago,but I am not, I am weepy about it today






























I had to sever ties with my friend because she spanks and spanks often, even while visiting me, until her dc is literally screaming. Naturally I don't want my kids to witness this
















But I miss the old days, all the fun we had pre-kids, when she was the most fun person in the world and very loving to me,

And she talks about how much she loves her babies but is not willing to guide them gently.....

I just don't get it.

And I miss her...the nice fun her I used to know.


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## 1jooj (Apr 8, 2002)

I know how hard this is to watch. We had a family member who had a "whacker" made just for the purpose, and used it several times daily on all her kids.

She does not anymore. I mean, she still occasionally spanks, but it is a different picture from 2 years ago.

It could just be a phase for this friend, too--she may simply not have all the info she needs to feel committed to being gentle. And she may feel alone and frustrated with a small child.

Is she much of a reader?

Have you told her why you don't feel comfortable getting together anymore?


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

She is well educated, a voracious reader, has an advanced degree in a related field, and has been this way for years, and yes she knows how I feel. She is NOT open to evidence that she is wrong.









I thought I was over this YEARS ago but a friend brought her name up recently and I just miss her so much, when I thought I was over this.


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## 1jooj (Apr 8, 2002)

It's really hard when you shared such a closeness, and then you see how you just absolutely don't connect on such an important issue. I know what you mean...


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Is she involved in a church that has these teachings?

db


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Yes I believe religion may play a part, isn't that frustrating?

Thank you so much for listening, it means a lot to me.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

If you want me to give you resources for convincing her that draconian parenting is not a part of Christian parenting (IOW, that you don't need to spank in order to be a good Christian parent) give me a PM.

db


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

My heart is with you...

It takes a great deal of courage to take a stand for something you believe in, especially when it is opposite someone you care for very much. I admire your incredible integrity. All too often it is easier to simply look the other way.

I know that this thread is discussing loss of a relationship over a specific issue. I just want to say that I can relate to the pain of losing a friend (three dear ones at once, for me--not this same issue, but one relating to treating humanity with love), thinking the pain was past, having that wound reopened and revisiting that intense pain of loss. All I can offer you is that the intensity of the pain passes, and if you can keep the good memories in your focus, it can help ease the transition.

Be gentle with yourself and allow the weeping to come. It is part of the grief process.

I wish you Peace.

^^Liss


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

I know it's hard, and I don't think you ever get over it. I had a very good friend that I gave up for similiar reasons. We were very close, we did almost everything together. When she had only one child, it was hard, because I really disagreed with most of her parenting choices. She didn't nurse, she did lots of shaming and power struggles and spanking. Still, we continued to be friends.

Then I had a baby, she had another, I had another, she had a third. After a while I just couldn't do it any more. Her infants spent their time in plastic child seats, they got these terrible flat heads from never being held. Her oldest DD was in school and began to have real behavior problems, and I felt strongly it was a result of her parenting.

There was no confrontation, I just quit calling, and quit going over, and was busy when she called. It's been over 10 years, and I still think about her and her kids very often.

You have my symapthy. I don't think there was anything else to do, but I still miss her, too.


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Vicki--I love your signature. That's a great saying.

Be well.
^^Liss


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## bonbon mama (May 16, 2003)

its so hard to lose a friend you were incredibly close to; i still think melancholic thoughts about two i lost 4 and 7 years ago.

i worry about losing a friend now who is pregnant. she doesn't want to nurse and she's only 5 weeks along. i most worry about other parenting decisions she may make because of the not for the welfare of her child thinking i'm afraid she's using. i did tell her that our friendship will survive enfamil and pampers but not corporal punishment. we laughed and i am offering mothering back issues while she is reading all can about her new pregnancy. 35 more weeks==wish me luck.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

could you find time to hang out just with her? like, have your significant others keep the kids while you do lunch? you wont have to see her punish her children, but will get to be able to talk to her as a person/friend.


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## foundabetterway (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm sorry you feel like this! I'm a mother who just "converted" to the Pearl method of discipline and much happier now! Try not to lose your friend just because she thinks differently than you!


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

found---the "Pearl method"? Would you explain or provide a link? In searching, all I discovered was contraceptive methods (kinda too late for that!) and an interview with a dominatrix about corsets!!









^^Liss

_*edited to add questions*_


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

moonlissa, please ignore the poster above you. you do not want to know what the pearls are. it will break your heart and make you vomit if you see their website.


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Well, now......in searching further I found one reference to a "Pearl" who claims some sort of expertise in child rearing -- Michael Pearl. While I have not yet found HIS specific website, I did find a review of a book called "To Train up a Child". http://atriptothewood.com/pearl.htm

I truly hope that there is another, non-related Pearl method.. because as I see it, anyone condoning using ANYTHING to strike a child (a "tiny willow switch"!!







), whether or not they attempt to justify that use with biblical references, that is abuse.

My grandmother used to beat the back of my legs with a willow switch. While I don't recall her using scripture to back that, it still F








hurt! I don't believe I learned anything other than loathing for her.

^^Liss


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Elphaba....thank you for your words. I suppose I've found the right "Pearl". I'm much to quick with checking something out, I guess, when I hear something new. Especially since we are discussing violent discipline and the tone here feels more like such methods DO NOT work unless you wish to break a child's spirit.

uke


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Yep, troll alert! This is exactly what the "ignore" function is designed for. Saves all sorts of aggravation and high blood pressure. All you need to do is click on "profile" under this person's post, then go to the bottom and click "add this person to your ignore list." Your MDC experience will be much more pleasant thereafter.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

uke uke


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

DANG!!! I feel like I walked RIGHT INTO that!! :LOL


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

Don't feel badly. Nice people assume the best of others.

If the Pearl method *really* worked, a person wouldn't have to lurk around trying to convince people that it did. People would be wowed by their beautifully behaved, compassionate children and beating down their doors trying to find out how they raised such excellent human beings.

Since this person is trolling around trying to convince other people, my guess is this person is really trying to convince him or herself.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Oh cool I never knew there was an ignore feature here!

I want to thank all of you who validated my feelings. There is no one in real life who said "good for you! Good work!" to me for sticking to my beliefs, in quite the eloquent way that some of you have.









Quote:

People would be wowed by their beautifully behaved, compassionate children and beating down their doors trying to find out how they raised such excellent human beings.
I love this! And my kids' teachers DO react like this to my kids. They praise them all the time for being unusually kind and compassionate, standing out from the crowd for not teasing other kids etc. My kids are my "report card" as it were.

Basically this ex-friend became so toxic I had to come to the conclusion that my life is happier, healthier and safer without her. One thing that helps me put it in perspective (although it's painful) is to remember what her parents were like to HER. OUCH.

But the good memories are still sweet. And that's where she belongs in my life....in the PAST.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Perfectly well behaved children are *not* evidence of an appropriate childrearing method. I can force anyone to behave in anyway I want if I threaten them with violence. Its still WRONG. And perfect behavior doesn't tell you anything about the child's heart, either.

There are right an wrong ways to treat other human beings. The only way to justify a method like the pearls "training" methods is to reduce the child to something less than human.










Momtwice -- I also empathize with your pain. Most of my friends and relatives are authoritarian spankers. I haven't cut anyone out of my life, but I've had to seriously take big giant steps away from people since my friends and I have had children. And even since my brother has had children. We just can't maintain closeness with this HUGE thing between us, threatening my children.










However, I've tried to remain close to the kids by inviting them over a lot. When they are older, I want to be the person who loves them no matter what. I want someone in their lives to reassure them that they are good and wonderful NO MATTER WHAT.


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtwice_
*Oh cool I never knew there was an ignore feature here!*
YAY! FABULOUS feature!! I just figured out how it works. Thanks!









^^Liss


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtwice_
*I want to thank all of you who validated my feelings. There is no one in real life who said "good for you! Good work!" to me for sticking to my beliefs, in quite the eloquent way that some of you have.








*
I'm sad to hear that. We can all use encouragement from the people around us. Isn't that why humans are social creatures???

^^Liss


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Could you not continue to be friends with her on another level. Perhaps when it can be just to two of you.
I think you could continue to be a good influence on her if you were to remain friends


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Oh man, I hardly ever come to this forum (mostly hang out in diapering) but I am on several gentle discipline yahoo groups. I was so sad to see the postings about the Pearls!







I've read some of the stuff just for info but I just am so sad about it. But when you read his stuff it is SO convincing and subversive, no wonder many people do it. They're shamed into it, just like the Ezzo stuff.

Anyway, I too wanted to commiserate with the OP - my two best friends are spankers, one to a much more degree. It's really hard.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This has not happened to me but I often fear spanking being used in front of my daughter. I don’t think I would be able to justify willingly exposing her to this – even for a good friend. That being said I would not totally write the person off either. I may just accept that we were in different places in life and keep hope that we would one day be on track again. It has happened to me already were good friends drifted and returned. I hope this happens for you and your friend also.


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## girlsaplenty (Jul 2, 2002)

Momtwice,
I'm so sorry you've lost a friend this way. I understand completely. I had to drop a friend for similar reasons; she wasn't a hitter, but she was big on belittling and yelling, and was very volatile. She sometimes pulled this stuff on my kids when she thought I wasn't around, and her kids were starting to act the same way.

It's sad, because I really liked my friend, too, and when we each had just one child, we used to get together all the time and have fun. When we each had a second child, and our first children were a little older, I noticed our parenting styles were starting to go in different directions. Not parallel paths, either, but opposite ones.

I just couldn't watch it anymore, and didn't want it to rub off on my family. I felt like I had to drop this friend in self-defense. I didn't want to, and even posted here on Mothering asking for advice because I left so bad about it.

I'm still sad about it. Especially because I never really said anything about it to this friend. I couldn't figure out what to say, and I couldn't say, "Everything about your parenting style freaks me out." Not exactly constructive criticism









I feel for you.








Diana


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## angelrose (Jan 1, 2003)

I recently had to cut off a relationship with my good friend for the very same reasons...she is into the Ezzo way and the Pearls...she uses a spanking stick (a paint stir stick) to hit her children....we were friends since I was 16 yrs old...I loved her and her kids..but it was just emotionally draining me to be around her and her parenting style...he kids always seemed *too quiet* kwim? I never heard the happy chaos that most children exibit...they also whined alot and seemed very insecure...mind you she never beat them ....just very controlled spankings for any sign of disobediance as she put it...which was basically anything even the slightest bit in objection to an adult...I felt like she was spanking them for EVERYTHING and all the time...it got to be too much! I sure do miss her friendship though....it was a very hard decision for me to make...but I am so much happier now...and my children do not have to witness her discipline choices anymore.

Kellina~ *hugs*


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## trippenfaerie (Jun 17, 2003)

: Hiya









I am new here and am trying to wander through all of this wonderful insight and advice! IT's amazing how much I have learned and gathered from this thread!

I, too, have a similar dilemma...does anyone have suggestions on how to answer you sweet, inquisitive child when he sees his friend being spanked/yelled at, etc.? I have been in a spot a few times and have found myself standing there with my jaw open and nothing coming out!







I can explain it later, but what do I say when the spanker and spankee are right there?

Thanks so much for any help!

Barb

SAHM to long haired hippy boy, Logan, and wife to long haired hippy man, Shawn


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Hi Barb!

Welcome to the boards. They are lots of fun and there are always interesting discussions going on.

When ds asks me about someone who is spanking, I simply reply "That's how some mommy's and daddy's do things. But, we don't do that in our house." I don't want him to get the impression that a) HE is going be spanked; and b) that he is allowed to "spank" others. He seems cool with that.










^^Liss


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## trippenfaerie (Jun 17, 2003)

Thanks, Liss! That sounds reasonable, and appropriate for public places. My ds is pretty insightful and doesn't usually fall for lame answers, so I think I'll use that


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

I'm glad I could be of help. My ds is pretty sharp, too and he can see right through any type of cover-up. Besides...it's true!







Everyone handles their children differently. So, I try to make statements to my child that are fact-based rather than judgment-based, especially when he is asking difficult questions and might be a bit young for most "lectures". There's enough judgment going around about ANYTHING!! Enough lectures, too. :LOL

DS is a bit over 3 yo, but it is the beginning of teaching that there are many different choices out there.

Cheers,
^^Liss

p.s. cool "handle"


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Barb -- at the moment, I can only think of one time that this happened -- at the park, by a really scarey looking Daddy. He was spanking his son, holding up by the arm, in front of all the kids -- because his son had hit my son.

My children were a mess. They were shaking and terrified. The younger one was sobbing.

I took them in my arms, and loud enough for all the kids to hear, I said, "Daddy's are not made for hitting their kids, they are made for loving their kids. Its scary because it is bad and wrong. Your Daddy is never going to hit you."

The kids playing all got quiet and the man stormed off and went home.

While different families do things differently, I feel strongly that my children already know deep down that there is something very wrong with a parent striking their child. I don't want to undermine that sense by downplaying it. Something like that *is* wrong, and while I want them to feel safe, I don't want to desensitize them to it either.


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