# Mamas who are strong leaders, some questions



## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Recently the message that I need to be a stronger leader with my DD (28 mos) has been coming to me from a variety of sources (here on MDC, my homeopath, my mother, my DH, random articles that I've picked up, a Waldorf teacher who I adore...just listing these out to be clear that it's not any pro-spanking, anti-child type people saying this).

The more I reflect on it, the more I realize that I *do* feel like the balance of control has shifted too far towards my DD and that it's to the point where she's really running our house and we're making ourselves







: trying to keep the peace.

The way I was explaining it to my homeopath this week is that I feel like I'm 90% super-mom and then 10% monster-mom.







I'm creative and energetic and playful and try my best to think of her perspective and give her room to be who she is and not force her to act in a certain way etc. And then I hit the wall and I just feel like this is







ridiculous and I have totally lost control (and self-respect) and I blow up at her because she won't cooperate for a diaper change or some other small thing.









I know I need to make some changes in how I relate to her and I do believe that there needs to be a shift in the balance of power/control.

But in the last couple of days, I've been trying to be more direct and clear with what I expect and feel like I'm a little more in control of what's happening and I feel myself sliding down the slippery slope of threats and punishment and I know that's not where I want to go.









I guess I'm just not exactly sure how it works to be a strong leader and GD.









Any thoughts?


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

How funny, our kids are exactly the same ages!

I wish I had good advice to give you, I worry sometimes about the same thing. Being a strong 'leader' type of mother and GD sometimes confuses me







. Fortunately my son is very head strong but I don't have a lot of conflict.







. I'm sure you'll get better advice than I can give you, but I know how having 2 this close in age is.

Lately I've been really annoyed at all of the 'perfect' people around me with 'perfect' kids and perfectly clean houses, etc. Good to know there are other human mamas (not that that makes you feel any better.) I think sometimes I need good advice on how to maintain balance without turning to threats with DS.

hugs to you mama


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

thats tough feeling you have no control is very upsetting

i guess what i try to do is work out what is important to me and work out a way of making sure it happens. tonight at bedtime ds 2 freaked out when it was his bedtime but i find the best way to stay in control for me is to not feel guolty. i make up my mind what needs to happen - ds 2 needed to go to bed and stick with it. he was tired and it was the right time, i trusted in myself i was doing the right thing and as long as his dramatics didnt make me feel guilty i manage to keep control of my own emotions so i then manage to be nicer and more supportive to him. its weird i am able to be nicer by being less emotionally connected sometimes. i have to realise my emotions and theurs are separate, not feel guilty, then i can be nice understanding mummy.

i dont manage it all the time but it certainly hekps when i do remember.

i think picking the things that are important to you helps too.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Hello!

How about rather than trying to control your dd more, you try to increase the effectiveness of how you go about seeking her agreement? The more I get into coercive tactics, the LESS Simon is agreeable, so if that is not the route you want to go down, I don't imagine you having much success increasing your coerciveness unless you want to "follow it through" and lean more towards mainstream parenting.

My ds is close in age to your dd, he's 2.5. Things have gotten a lot easier with him lately. Hopefully things will get easier for you soon, too, and in a way that feels right for you and not insulting/threatening for your dd.









Here's something I wrote for another purpose recently, but that may contain some helpful ideas for you. You may already have tried these techniques, but I'm sharing anyway since of course I have no way of knowing what you've tried.

Here are some of the solutions/approaches that have been helpful for us.

With the carseat (this was a particular issue for the mom who was seeking advice): If the car is not on, it's not about to go anywhere from a toddler's perspective so they might as well be playing in it (at least this is true for Simon, my son). If it's on, though, he usually gets that "oh, yeah! I like to go on outings and it's time to go NOW" so he hops into his seat pronto. We're in a really safe spot and dh is usually with us in the car, so sometimes we even start driving a little bit. Other strategies that work for us in this case: Pretending that we're off to an emergency. The car is no longer a car, it's a firetruck. We play imaginary games in it, pretending to be rushing off to the scene of a fire and saving kittens or whatever. Sometimes the car is a mailtruck, an airplane, a boat. When he was younger, we played up the urgency of getting him into his seat once the car was on. That helped a lot. I'm not sure how I feel about this now as he may have been mildly scared or anxious about this -- even though the mood was playful -- but it worked and was such a huge relief back then, seeming far preferable to the other alternatives we had come up with.

Creativity. I often find myself feeling too lazy to brainstorm. We once spent something insane like 6 hours in a parking lot because I wasn't particularly bothered by being there and Simon was not feeling a love for his carseat. Dh was not happy about that. We should have been more creative, far more creative. We didn't really try much of anything, as I remember. It seems parents often think, hmmm, shall I stuff the baby in the carseat against her/his will or ask the very same question I've asked 200 times already and hope for a different answer to it this time around? Perhaps we'll take a little walk and then re-create the exact same situation and hope it goes better? Thinking back now, no wonder we had no success! Creativity is tiring, but I've found that I'm getting better at it and that once a certain creativity threshold is met, there are old ideas that pop to mind that don't require a lot of new thought (until they stop working). (Not to say that you aren't being creative, I have no idea, this is just something we often fall short on so I thought I'd mention it.)

Another carseat idea: Sometimes I'll say: How about you get in your carseat and then I'll pass you your sippy cup (though we're trying to get rid of those now) or his snack or whatever. I'll give him the snack or whatever if he's not in his seat too, but sometimes phrasing it this way helps get him into the seat, plus sitting in a comfortable seat makes sense when one wants a drink/snack.

Simon has spent a lot of time exploring the inside of our car. He'll still pretend to drive once in awhile but I think that most of the fun of it has worn off.

For all conflicts in general, what I've found helpful for us:

Telling Simon what is going on in my head: We have a conflict. You want this and why I think he wants it. I want this and why. What might we do that we'll both like to do? If he seems fairly tense, I often say "I want to help you." This helps remind him that I'm not trying to force him to do something against his will. Similarly things I sometimes say are: "Don't worry, you decide what you want to do. I will listen to you. I respect you." I find that's very helpful for him to hear. Often I don't even have to come up with suggestions after this type of talking. Just the gentle and loving contact is sometimes enough to disengage him from what he's doing and for him to realize that it wasn't that important to him and he was indeed happy to come along and do whatever I'd rather do. I find that it often takes awhile for the conflict and what I'm suggestion as a solution to it to really sink in. Sometimes he has a reflex-like "No" but at the same time he'll change what he's doing in order to meet my needs. E.g., if I ask him to stop kicking a wall because it is bothering me and I'm worried that he might scratch the wall, he may say "No" but stop kicking the wall right away. He's 2.5 so of course he's not consistent with any of this as he's still learning and of course I don't expect him to ever consistently do whatever I ask him to do.

Stay as happy. loving, and positive as possible. If I change my mindset and start thinking "This isn't fair! He should be doing X. This is stupid." or whatever, Simon picks up on my vibe and things go downhill at warp speed. The more I try to get him to do what I want, the less apt he is to do it. If I relax and show that what I want to do is really fun and that it's up to him, he's way more likely to want to come along with me. If you think about it, who in their right mind would want to drop something they are thoroughly enjoying and do whatever it is that their mom, who is hovering over them with a crank-on, seems to be indirectly demanding them to do?

Use humour. Lots of it.

I do find though that even when he isn't happy to do whatever I prefer to do (which is his right as I'm often not happy to do what he prefers to do either) we can find a solution that works for us before long. One thing that has been really helpful in this regard is disengaging myself from an activity with him that I am totally not enjoying. I kept playing with him and playing, playing, playing in the past even when I absolutely didn't feel like doing so. Now I'm wondering why on earth I did that. I guess I thought he would have gotten really upset, but that is not the case. He may be mildly upset, but his reaction has never been anything close to whatever it was that I might have feared. I think he gets that, o.k., mom is bored. I'm sad and want her to keep playing, but she's done with this game. I suggest other options that are more appealing to me. By disengaging, he's not getting the vibe that mom is playing with me but bored, which I think is an unhealthy one to send. We'll either find something else that I can enjoy doing with him, or I'll move on to something else, like reading a book or making dinner. I'm available to him and loving throughout this. He often sees, oh, mom doesn't want to play with ambulances any more, but she suggested going for a car ride to the library and that sounds pretty fun. Often we'll have a new activity in between the one that he had been really enjoying and the one that I'm keen to do -- some really short game (today there were two cases of this: throwing bouncy balls down stairs and racing a car back and forth across the table) -- and that will help ease the transition.

Similarly, inspired by the continuum concept, sometimes if we're out and I'm in a rush, I'll assume that Simon will follow me. I haven't done this many times yet, but so far if I'm in a rush and try this, he does follow me (with some slight prodding) and enjoys himself. I think there is something about being in a rush that can be quite fun. I typically make time for him to have some diversions too. If I'm not in a rush, he sometimes doesn't follow. He seems to know the difference and I never expect him to follow against his will ( e.g., if he were anxious about me going ahead of him).

One other thing: It seems to be very hard for him to fully get the idea of activity2 while he's in the midst of acivity1. I try to make the idea of activity2 as real for him as I can. Often if we can get him to the door, if he sees that it's open, he'll be happy to go outside and proceed to the next activity even though he claims that he wants to stay home all day long (which he has been doing frequently lately since it seems that his toy collection is perhaps a bit too appealing for him -- kinda joking there, kinda not). Downplaying activity1 and drawing attention away from it can be super helpful. We had a little boy over here the other day who was having a fabulous time with Simon's trains. He didn't want to leave, but his parents were ready to get going and Simon had had enough of sharing. I asked him about his dogs, who were in his car, and whether he would take me and Simon to see them. He was keen to do this. After agreeing, though, he was distracted again by the train and continued playing. A side conversation with his mom led me to ask her if she wanted to see our set-up upstairs, so then I asked the boy if he wanted to explore the rest of our house and see where we sleep. I then reminded him about showing us the dogs too, saying that I'd love to see them after he explores our house. He happily left the trains for a brief tour of our house and then introduced us to his dogs and headed home soon after.









Related to this, I sometimes find it helpful if someone other than me or dh participates in helping to arrive at consensus -- so if you can be around like-minded parents or help those with whom you are around to see what you are doing, they may be able to help out now and then. The more brainstorming the merrier, and sometimes -- especially when in someone else's environment -- it can make sense for other people to be involved. One example of this: sometimes Simon is more apt to listen to a (hopefully kind) store clerk than to me if, e.g., he's doing something that is not what the owners of the store want him to be doing. I don't take this as alarming or surprising, especially if I'm not certain that what he's doing is actually bothersome to the store. Sometimes I suggest that it might be, but he realizes that I could be wrong about this. I guess he gets that sometimes I'm really not an epistemic authority about the rules of a given environment, and sometimes the simple interest of talking with a new person helps to distract him from a fun activity and help him see the light of the next great adventure. When we're out and about I think our discussions can have less effect in some ways than when we're at home, since there is so much competing with what I'm saying. Things would be so amazing if the general population had a clue about treating children with respect since children would then get LOVING GUIDANCE when they were drawn to activities that aren't really appropriate.

Sometimes if dh is home (which he usually is) he'll know that Simon and I are in a little conflict -- typically Simon wants to stay home and play and I want to go out. Dh can make some little peeping noises or whatever -- something to distract Simon from what he's doing and get him to play a quick game with dh -- and that will be enough to free Simon's mind for a new activity (the one I want to do!).









I don't feel bad about trying to get Simon to do what I want to do at times. He does that to me quite often! I pick activities that we're both apt to enjoy and I need to get out of the house for my mental health, and Simon also has a better time when we aren't cooped up all day long, which seems what he would often choose to do without any encouragement to do other things.

I find that once I let Simon know that I'm really bored and eager to move on, he is usually ready to move on before long. His newest thing is to stick his hand out and say "Five More Minutes!" If what he's doing is particularly fun for him, he'll keep adding minutes, but usually not for too long. I take his continued adding on of minutes as a sign that the activity is really important to him, so my resolve to move on to do whatever goes down when this happens. All of this doesn't apply to particularly great activities when he hasn't had the chance to meet his own needs, e.g., if we get to a park and he needs a lot of exercise, he isn't likely to happily leave soon after we get there, unless I made the prospect of leaving exciting in some way, e.g., by asking if he wanted to go to the store and buy a sucker (bag over head). Of course I aim not to interfere with his fun before he has had a long time to do what he wants to do. Sometimes we'll play a chasing game or something like that and I'll steer us towards the exit. That feels (and is) a bit sneaky. That reminds me: if we're shopping, he'll often get a mobile-type toy and happily follow me to the cash with it. (He's happy to play with items and then leave them, so he doesn't expect that we'll buy it.) This gets him there happily and once we're there, he doesn't mind waiting in line and paying for our stuff. When I've done this, I've almost always noticed other similar toys around, so I'm not alone in allowing this. I know it's a nuisance for the store, but it works and keeps things harmonious. If dh or someone else is with me one of us will return the item to where it belongs.

What else? We try not to focus on what we are asking/wanting him to do. I think that at 2.5 redirection is still a huge tool and often our best bet.

I sometimes do a tally in my head of what nice things Simon has experienced that day. If they are minimal, I'm far more apt to go along with whatever he wants or to up my involvement with him. I find that very focused involvement for 20 minutes or so gets far more mileage than bored or intermittent involvement for well over an hour; it fills him up more quickly and puts him into a great mindset so that he's more agreeable to move on to do something else. If he's had lots of opportunities that are focused more on his preferences than on mine or ours, I try to move things along so that I don't start feeling resentful (or become increasingly resentful/depressed feeling/whatever).

One thing: We try to keep in mind what we've been doing in the past and if something is unsuccessful, drop it and try something else. Dh in particular keeps using certain approaches that NEVER NEVER NEVER work. Why he keeps doing this, I do not know.







One of them: "Simon, do you want me to change your diaper?" Simon has NEVER said yes to this, EVER. He'll happily have his diaper changed when he is engaged in something at counter-height. There is no point asking him since that just makes him want to keep his diaper on.

Brainstorming for ideas with others online, and just asking for suggestions, has been tremendously helpful to me.

Sometimes we go to places that have parking meters. These can be wonderful!!! If I put 2 hours' worth of coins in the meter (or whatever), he takes the "we need to get going soon" notices seriously and is ready to go to the car on time to avoid the risk of getting a ticket. He doesn't have the same respect for telling so-and-so that we'll be at their house by 2 though: I guess that isn't as tangible for him.

For awhile he LOVED clocks. I'd show him the clock and explain that when the hands moved around thus and so, it would be time to go. That worked a few times.

We sometimes plan trips so that we're in a cool place/store/whatever until it closes (which is when we plan to leave), though this isn't really necessary any longer since Simon is finding it easier to leave on his own. A loudspeaker voice saying that the store/Science World/whatever is closing, or a group that is tidying up toys because it is time to go both work very well to get him moving. He gets that it is not an arbitrary decision and so he doesn't protest against it.

Well... these methods are working great for us. I do not feel that Simon is in control in our house, though I'm sure many mainstreamers would see treating him with respect as akin to him being in control. For awhile, I did feel that I was bowing to him, but that has since passed. I think I just needed to work on my techniques and to know that it's o.k. to stand back and do my own thing (while still being available and loving to Simon), or look for alternatives, when Simon is really keen to do something that I don't want to do (or keep doing).


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
ask the very same question I've asked 200 times already and hope for a different answer to it this time around?


















Here are two articles that I found helpful. I couldn't figure out how to mesh "parents have a position og authority" with "don't coerce" and these articles helped me think throught that.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

This was what really brought it together for me. It was my "aha!" moment (from the Leidloff article):

Quote:

An adult who stops whatever she is doing and tries to ascertain what her child wants her to do is short-circuiting this expectation. Just as significantly, she appears to the tot not to know how to behave, to be lacking in confidence and, even more alarmingly, looking for guidance from him, a two or three year old who is relying on her to be calm, competent, and sure of herself.
And this from the Noelle article:

Quote:

Liedloff concluded that child-centeredness was the problem. The article describes how being child-centered makes our babies and children feel as though we don't know what we're doing - that we are literally looking to them to tell us what to do.
So I stopped asking ds if he wanted his diaper changed. I calmed myself and tried to get "in tune" with him. When I sensed that a diaper change would be acceptable to him (NOT while he's focused on playing, or busy in any way), I would TELL him that we were going to go have a diaper change. (I'd *expect* as much as I could that he'd be agreeable).
IF at that point, he dissented, I'd try to find an agreeable solution, or I'd stop and try later (depending on him).
By *asking* or even implying that I am looking to him for an answer, is just an invitation for "no." I think he answers "no" arbitrarily sometimes, because he can. Then, of course, he has to follow through on it. lol
Either that or its because if I'm doing that, I haven't gotten in tune with him enough to know when is agreeable, and *expect* that he will be ok with it.

That's just one example. The carseat worked like that too. The first time I tried it, I found myself saying "you HAVE to get in your seat. We HAVE to go." so I stopped and let him play for about 15 minutes with no interuptions of "let's go." Then, when it seemed that his play was slowing down, I said something like- I am going to put you in your seat because we are leaving for grandma's now.
I was amazed! Not that it "works" every time (meaning, I'm not right in thinking that it would be agreeable at that time), but it helps. And it lessens those times when nothing is agreeable, which makes them easier to get through as gracefully as possible.


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## yay_iris! (Oct 20, 2006)

um... WOW!! I was going to post about my own challenges with my dd, just trying to get her to do things willingly, as more often now than ever before I find I get tired of the negotiating and give her the "if you wont go willingly, I will pick you up and take you" ultimatum. Not so proud of that, it is supposed to be my last resort but like I said lately I seem to be reaching that point probably once or twice a day. But never mind! There is a ton of ideas here for me to chew on. So thanks Dal, and thanks Dharmama for the OP! WOW!!


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

I just want to pop back in and say thank you for all your thoughtful responses. I reflected more last night and I think I have identified some of what's going on in my interactions with DD. I don't have time to post now because she's wanting my attention (definitely part of the problem...she recently stopped napping so I'm not getting ANY breaks these days







).

I need to re-read Dal's post (and print it out -- WOW!) and check out the links Deva33 posted.

Thanks mamas.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

You sound like me sometimes.

My friend has been sharing the continuum concept ideas and articles with me lately, including the Scott Noelle one. One thing she said to me was to lead like a mama duck. A mama duck goes where she needs to go, expecting that her babies will follow, and they do. Not sure how that relates to us exactly, but there you go, there is your example of a leader, a mama duck!

~Tracy


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Those links were great! Definitely gives me some food for thought.

Love the mama duck image.

Time to go search up some continuum concept threads!







:


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I actually disagree with the mama duck approach when this is used all the time. Children in our society are not in a society that is in any way similar to that of the culture from which the CC was created. The children in that society have a HUGE amount of independence. They are not following their parents around all day long. They spend a tonne of time with other children and are in a more child-friendly environment. In our society, we need to sometimes follow and sometimes lead or else our children rarely get to make any decisions for themselves and would be miserable, compliant robots, or perhaps some combination of these.

Great apes do not have their babies follow them around all of the time. They sometimes do this, but there is also a lot of time in which mama and other adults (mostly females, I'm guessing) keep an eye out on the babies/toddler and let them do their thing.

We are not sheep and shouldn't expect to have sheep babies.

Another thing: What is being asked of children in that CC culture by their parents? I'm guessing it is fairly minor and makes up a tiny part of their lives, and already agreeable to the child. They also have the benefit of the entire culture following along, so that a child grows up seeing other children quiet in the dining lounge, so s/he is quiet, perhaps enjoying the relaxing after spending a day of great freedom and busy playing that is hardly ever experienced by children in our society. It's not the same as asking them to do complicated or difficult or just disagreeable things in an already stifling (or otherwise far from ideal) environment and expecting them to follow along.

Another thing: Children in our society are often at home in fairly static environments. If anything is moving, maybe mom is doing some dishes or the t.v. is on. Siblings can help with this somewhat, but it's a far cry from what they would experience in a CC-friendly environment. I wouldn't expect children to be enriched by routinely watching mom go about her work at home when this work is routine and in an environment that is otherwise quite static and boring. My work involves sitting at a computer for long stretches! Even outings in our society tend not to compare to outings in a deeply child-friendly environment. Our children most likely do not have a wider community in which to be an active participant (even if that participation is spectator-oriented, which I think Leidloff overstates). We often need to try to be their community and this requires that we do a lot of following them around since we don't think the world is safe enough for them to have the freedom they expect. Expecting children to be obedient as a matter of course in our environments is not a good idea since this is a millionfold more stifling and coercive than expecting agreement is in a more CC-friendly environment, which may not be coercive at all, or very minimally so.

I suspect that we also have different goals for our children and that these are better met by a more child-centered approach to parenting. Gotta go!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I actually disagree with the mama duck approach when this is used all the time. Children in our society are not in a society that is in any way similar to that of the culture from which the CC was created. The children in that society have a HUGE amount of independence. They are not following their parents around all day long. They spend a tonne of time with other children and are in a more child-friendly environment. In our society, we need to sometimes follow and sometimes lead or else our children rarely get to make any decisions for themselves and would be miserable, compliant robots, or perhaps some combination of these.

Great apes do not have their babies follow them around all of the time. They sometimes do this, but there is also A LOT of time in which mama and other adults (mostly females, I'm guessing) keep an eye out on the babies/toddler and let them do their thing.

We are not sheep and shouldn't expect to have sheep babies.

Another thing: What is being asked of children in that CC culture by their parents? I'm guessing it is fairly minor and makes up a tiny part of their lives, and already agreeable to the child. They also have the benefit of the entire culture following along, so that a child grows up seeing other children quiet in the dining lounge, so s/he is quiet, perhaps enjoying the relaxing after spending a day of great freedom and busy playing that is hardly ever experienced by children in our society. It's not the same as asking them to do complication things in an already stifling environment and expecting them to follow along.

Another thing: Children in our society are often at home in fairly static environments. If anything is moving, maybe mom is doing some dishes or the t.v. is on. Siblings can help with this somewhat, but it's a far cry from what they would experience in a CC-friendly environment. I wouldn't expect children to be enriched by routinely watching mom go about her work at home when this work is routine and in an environment that is otherwise quite static and boring. My work involves sitting at a computer for long strethes! Even outings in our society tend not to compare to outings in a deeply child-friendly environment. Our children most likely do not have a huge community in which to be an active participant (even if that participation is spectator-oriented, which I think Leidloff overstates). We often need to try to be their community and this requires that we do a lot of following them around since we don't think the world is safe enough for them to have the freedom they expect. Expecting children to be obedient as a matter of course in our environments is not a good idea since this is a millionfold more stifling and coercive than expecting agreement is in a more CC-friendly environment, which may not be coercive at all, or very minimally so.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

Another thing: Children in our society are often at home in fairly static environments. If anything is moving, maybe mom is doing some dishes or the t.v. is on. Siblings can help with this somewhat, but it's a far cry from what they would experience in a CC-friendly environment.
I think that's a really good point. Something I've learned a lot about through attending a parent-tot Waldorf program. I make an effort to make my housework more rhythmical and movement oriented....hand-beating instead of electric mixer, hand-washing some of our dishes so DD can help etc.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Ok...everyone is asleep (for now at least). So here's a little shift that I made this evening after reading those articles.

Having dinner at my parents. I decided it would be easier for me not to have to hold DS (5 mos) on my lap so I want to put him in the highchair, which DD (28 mos) usually uses.

Just yesterday I would have taken her aside and asked her permission to use the highchair.

Me: (Getting down at her level. In a soft voice.) Lily, would it be ok if Quinn went in your highchair tonight?







:
Her: NO.
Me: Please honey. You're a big girl and you can sit in a big girl chair.
Her: NO.

THere's a bunch of different ways this might have continued. Me giving up (and holding DS on my lap feeling







: ). Her having a total meltdown and then asking to nurse to feel better...which would have set off a whole other meltdown because I'm limiting her nursings to 3X a day. Me getting angry and insisting that DS is going in the highchair.

But in reading this...

Quote:

When we give the kind of attention in which we are constantly asking our children what they want or need - when they sense our feelings of uncertainty or fear of failing to meet their needs (and our own projected needs) - then naturally they will feel unsettled if not completely freaked out!
...I took a different approach.

Calmly and matter-of-factly...

Lil, you're going to sit in a big girl seat. Right here. Climb up (as I put out my hand to help her).
Quinn, you're going to sit in the highchair right next to Lily.
Lily...isn't it fun to sit right next to your brother?
Okay...who needs water?

That felt SO much more sane than what I've been doing. And she totally went along with it.

Now I definitely agree with your counterpoints Dal. And I'm not going to stop playing with my children and going to the park and the playground just because they should be content to just watch me work, but I do think I need to reflect on how much power I give over to my DD by asking her how to do my job.

Do you want the pink cup or the red one? Would you like the blue coat or the purple one? Should we go to the park or the library today? Can you help me clean up your toys? How many books should we read tonight? Who do you want to help you brush your teeth, mama or papa?







: (I could go on. But I'm embarassed enough just reading what I've already written.







)

Oh and as for creating a CC-like environment...I kind of do (without even realizing it) with twice weekly Waldorf playgroups. One at school and one that rotates at different homes. We always have a project that we work on. Something child-friendly and we do create a (somewhat artificial) community work environment where we are not child-focused.

Dal (and anyone else who wants to respond)...I'm wondering if you are always able to keep up the level of energy needed to be so centered and creative all the time?

I guess I feel like I can only do it up to a point and then...like I said in my OP...I just kind of lose it and instead of the usual 10 minutes of exploring I allow her to do before getting in her carseat, I just want her to get in her damn carseat for once without it being a huge ordeal.





















:

So for me, I'm seeing a couple of issues...

One that I need more help/breaks. I am pretty burnt out right now and I need to find some ways to refresh and recenter.

And secondly, that I have been handing over too much power/control to my DD and I need to look for small ways (little issues that don't have a charge around them...like the highchair tonight) to let her know that I actually do have some clue about what the heck I'm doing.









And on that note, I better take a break and spend some time with my DH before I totally crash for the night.

Thanks for listening and responding. I'm grateful for your responses and for this forum!


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Haven't has time to read all the respomses so hopefully i am not repeating but I find that using alot less talking is helpful. You don't have to explain every single detail of everything. i actually think my dh is a pro at this and I am not so much. Now that Myles is 3, he is able to reason more but last year it was all about more action fewer words.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

Oh, how I wish I'd read these articles when my kids were babies! I've been where you are, dahrmama-- I felt like that a lot when they were 3, which I personally found to be the hardest age. It never got *too* out of control; dh and I eventually groped our way to a better family dynamic. I'm not even sure how we did it!







I do resonate with oliversmum when she describes being more centered and able to empathize when she is confident in her actions and keeps control of her own emtions by not allowing them to be dictated by her child's emotion. That strategy has worked very well for our family when I've managed it.

I've found expectations to be important as well. For example, I never lead my children to believe I will abandon them somewhere. However, if I've told them it's time to go and they are ignoring me, I'll simply say, "I'm leaving and I expect you to come with me." Then I'll turn and start going. Works like a charm almost every time!







I really think it *is* a leadership issue.

For future reference, check out the book The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolfe. The specific techniques in that book wouldn't work with a 2 year old -- they are really for about age 4 and up. But it's a quick, funny, and useful read -- all about how to be a leader/authority figure without resorting to threats and punishment.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Dal (and anyone else who wants to respond)...I'm wondering if you are always able to keep up the level of energy needed to be so centered and creative all the time?

I guess I feel like I can only do it up to a point and then...like I said in my OP...I just kind of lose it and instead of the usual 10 minutes of exploring I allow her to do before getting in her carseat, I just want her to get in her damn carseat for once without it being a huge ordeal.





















:

For me, the answer to the first question is "no"!







: Ya know that book I recommended? The one that tells you how to parent without threats and punishment? Well it really works pretty well, but it *does* take mental energy if it's not your automatic way of handling things. I admit, I don't always have the mental energy. I still threaten to take away a priveldge sometimes (though much less often than I used to.) I try to keep working on it and be kind to myself.

As for the second point I quoted above, I *totally* know where you are coming from. I still remember with sadness the time I got right in dd's face and yelled "GO BRUSH YOUR TEETH *NOW*!" It was about the 15th time I'd told her to do it (I probably _asked_ her to do it the first 8 times), and she was totally ignoring me. I just got so *angry* at being ignored -- I felt very impotent. But really, it was my fault for letting her ignore me the first 14 times. I was simply too busy doing other things and getting overwhelmed and frustrated. This is where I agree with Dal about the limits of TCC. "Stoneage" children don't have to brush their teeth this instant so mom can make it to her appointment on time, kwim?

Um, did I have a point?







Oh yeah -- My point was that once you start having more successes like you did tonight (yay!) you won't reach that boiling point so easily or so often. You'll still get there _sometimes_, like I did with the toothbrushing thing.







: But in those cases, you apologize, make ammends and move on. Once your temper flare-ups become more rare, it will be easier to deal with them.









Looks like you are on the right track now! Good luck!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Dal (and anyone else who wants to respond)...I'm wondering if you are always able to keep up the level of energy needed to be so centered and creative all the time?

I think that when it comes to Simon (not to dh though, unfortunately) I have a tonne of patience. Maybe those happy hormones from looking at one's child are particularly high in me, I don't know. I certainly didn't learn patience or GD from my parents; they pretty much ignored me and they can only spend about 10 minutes interacting with Simon before they are either bored silly or stressed out. They don't seem to like children very much, at least not in practice. Dh and I both work from home, so we can take turns with Simon during the day, which is a big help (though it brings some challenges too).

The creativity aspect of CL doesn't need to be turned on all the time. I have a lot of left-over creative ideas from previous brainstorming sessions that I can often fall back on and it's becoming more and more automatic as time goes by. Also, if I were feeling not so creative, I could post a question in a few different forums and come back after a few hours and voila, there are some creative solutions. It tends to be that I'm stumped and have a bit of a down day because of it (though nothing terrible, usually) and then I think about things and ask others for help and end up with better ways of dealing with a similar situation in the future. There haven't really been too many of these instances. Simon wanted to push a stoplight for a couple of hours once, he used to dislike his carseat so we struggled for awhile about how to find a way for that to be agreeable for him, he wanted to stare at bikes at the side of the road for a long time, ... this type of thing. Had I read more about CL beforehand and given more thought to how I'd respond in this type of situation, I could have avoided some boredom. Still, it's not as if it has been a rollercoaster or anything like that. What is hardest for me about parenting has nothing to do with CL, the CL bit is pretty easy for me. What I find hard are things like getting enough sleep (since I tend to work or spend time online after Simon goes to sleep and have trouble putting an end to it), and finding the motivation to stick to unrelated ideals, like going on a wide variety of outings, developing new friendships, and doing a better job with shopping and preparing foods. Our only real issue has been toothbrushing. Again, I wish I had just thought more about it, especially earlier on, and tried more options. I thought I had tried them all, but really, this was far from true and I ended up recycling options that hadn't been all that successful in the past and that, surprise!, continued to fall short. We seem to have finally found a method that works fairly well. I really don't think CL is as difficult as it is often taken to be. In my own case, my daily life is quite easy most of the time. When it's hard, it's rarely due to Simon. It's usually because I haven't gotten enough sleep or because of some other stressor in my life (a big move, finances, and the like).

The thing with telling one's child what to do (well, at least one thing): o.k. fine, if they agree to what you are demanding of them, it seems that they are consenting to it, but what happens when they disagree with your order? Is this going to lead to you forcing them to do it if they disagree? If not, what happens to this method? Are you just testing the waters of what they will do without you asking their opinions and sticking to the territory in which they will happily comply? Also, how do they feel about being ordered around? Will this wear away at your relationship over time?

In some cases, being more assertive may work well to avoid unnecessary conflicts -- especially if you have a child who seems to have a reflexive "no." But I think that should remain within a consensual living type method of parenting rather than aiming towards a more authoritarian "I'm the boss" method. It seems some might think, "Oh great, I should be the boss, how easy would that be!? Parenting shouldn't be difficult, we've been doing it for millenia." Sounds nice, eh? Let's find the easy way of doing things. A quick-fix. I don't think there is going to be an easy way out, at least not one that is respectful of children. Things today are not as they used to be. We're set up in a series of isolated family units in an increasingly complex environment that tends not to be all that child-friendly. I feel that our children need more power over their lives to make up for all of the freedoms they've lost and that giving it to them rather than lording over them helps them to become the type of people that we need: creative and independent thinkers who are internally motivated, deeply empathetic, and do not bow to the status quo or whatever other authority figure strikes their fancy.

I disagree that children will be insecure and think their parents are incompetent and confused when the parents ask them for their opinion on things. Knowing a person's preferences is part of knowing who that person is and what is important to her or him. It makes sense to respect a person's preferences once we know what they are. I think that when consensual living is done well and with a general awareness of child development (including the unique development of your own child or children), it can be extremely empowering for children. Some parents may ask their children's permission to go to the bathroom or for this and that because the parents are clueless and insecure, but others are asking for the child's preferences and so on from a place of deep confidence and respect. The former are likely to have children who feel insecure since they are eating it up from their insecure parents, but this need not at all be the case for the latter type of parents. It is not only parents who boss their children around who can be confident in what they are doing. At the same time, I actually like the idea of children learning from the get-go that mom and dad are PEOPLE and don't always have all of the answers, and that they (the children) are competent and able to contribute to the family and that their perspectives and wishes matter a great deal.

I worry that following the "I'm the boss" variant of the CC can lead down the path of using aversive voice control in order to manipulate children into doing things (and further uses of coercion on top of this), and to the failure to take them seriously.

I think that CL (consensual living) requires the development of a skill set, and I'm still working on that, but it is not as hard as many people seem to take it to be. Maybe it's just that there is a lack of available information that really gets into the nitty gritty of how to go about this in an effective way. There are a lot of anecdotes here and there about particular situations, but not much that really puts things together. If anything is tiring about CL, it is not about the time that is spent with one's children (at least not for me) but more about the work that goes into truly knowing the child and the continual learning that is often required. For me, CL requires a lot of thinking when conflicts arise or other issues come up and a lot of research into alternative options for this and that. I enjoy this thinking and research and think it is important and helpful. I feel obliged to do it and don't feel that this is a bad thing. Fortunately, I am not on this path alone. There are other people who do similar brainstorming and research and I can learn from them, which reduces my own epistemic load quite a bit.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
I
The thing with telling one's child what to do (well, at least one thing): o.k. fine, if they agree to what you are demanding of them, it seems that they are consenting to it, but what happens when they disagree with your order? Is this going to lead to you forcing them to do it if they disagree? If not, what happens to this method? Are you just testing the waters of what they will do without you asking their opinions and sticking to the territory in which they will happily comply? Also, how do they feel about being ordered around? Will this wear away at your relationship over time?

Well, I try to do that, tell him what I expect will happen. Really, my thoughts on it are more along the lines of "I'm not going MAKE him make a decision (by asking him something he hasn't already shown interest in), but I WILL respect a decision he makes of his own volition.
Iow, if I say "Are you ready to have your diaper changed?" That's MAKING him make a decision. If I say "It's time to change your diaper" I'm not asking him to make a decision, but if he OFFERS his opinion in response to that, I will respect that. (I'm not perfect, but when we are alone it is MUCH more CL than when we are in social situations. lol).
Another aspect is, that if I am telling him its time to get his diaper changed, I am taking time before hand to get in sync with him, and to calm myself. To sense when he is at a stopping point in his activity, and will be agreeable to it. I find that when I ASK I'm less likely to have taken that into account and in the process I may interupt some important activity that I hadn't really noticed. And, strange as it may seem, it is easier for me to accept "no" for an answer in the "telling" situation, because I've gotten my head into the place that he WILL cooperate, unless he has a good reason not to. So, I assume if he says "no" that there is a good reason for that.
If he makes a decision of his own volition, I figure he is ready for that responsibility. I'm not looking to HIM for direction. I'm not asking him to take responsibility that he hasn't shown an interest in having. But if he expresses interest in making that decision, I figure he is ready, and I respect that. (not comparing this to CL, just comparing it to how I see "mainstream" "give toddlers choices")
I also think that giving "choices" as a way of letting a toddler feel he has autonomy is kinda false autonomy (this wouldn't apply to CL AT ALL!!). What I'm thinking of is, someone who asks "which washcloth do you want to use?" as a way to make a toddler feel in control of bathtime. My thought is, REAL autonomy is actually letting the toddler BE in control of bathtime. So, ds doesn't have frequent baths. lol.

At any rate, no. In theory, I don't force anything (you may know my one exception, but I do try to find consensual solutions, which we are doing very well with). Ok, actually I just reread this and the first paragraph pretty much said it all. lol


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

This is all very interesting. I could never and would never want a CL relationship with my children. This does not mean I think it is "wrong' or a bad way to raise kids, but its not for me.

I am a no threats, no punishment parent who states her expectations and leaves it at that. Of course I put my children's needs as my first priority and try, when possilbe to take into account their wants.

I have found that the number of times my kids have balked at a statement like "It's time to get in the car" are so few I can only think of two or three times.

I also don't feel like my children were ignoring me when they didn't comply with my requests. I might have to go over to them and actively wait, but to me that was part of parenting.

As for the scenario you mentioned, the putting the baby in the high chair I would have handled it exactly as you ended up. I would not ask for permission. I would simply state taht this is what was going to be done. If my child was unhappy about her sib sitting in the chair, I wouldn't be mad and would acknowledge that they were unhappy, but I am going to do what meets my needs and the baby's needs. If I somehow thought my other child's needs (as opposed to a theoretical "want" were involved, I would try to meet that need).


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm not necessarily CL, but I've been trying to figure out why I'm not. In daily life, we probably look CL. But I think its that I need to make my goals attainable. It's easy for me to want to be consensual MOST of the time. When I think of being consensual ALL of the time, it seems overwhelming. And I don't particularly feel that occasional coercion will be harmful. Though I do believe that coersion does get in the way of learning fully about the situation. So, obviously, in my thoughts, consensual is the goal for all situations, but I don't feel bad or like I'm not meeting my ideals if for some reason a situation isn't consensual.

I would have done the highchair situation about the same, but if ds had expressed that it was important to him to be in the chair, I would have said "ok." I'd figure there was a reason, or even perhaps that he was so used to the previous "struggles" (I'm using that term lightly) that it had become a big deal to him.


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## sproutbabe (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I'm not asking him to take responsibility that he hasn't shown an interest in having. But if he expresses interest in making that decision, I figure he is ready, and I respect that. (not comparing this to CL, just comparing it to how I see "mainstream" "give toddlers choices")
*I also think that giving "choices" as a way of letting a toddler feel he has autonomy is kinda false autonomy* (this wouldn't apply to CL AT ALL!!). What I'm thinking of is, someone who asks "which washcloth do you want to use?" as a way to make a toddler feel in control of bathtime. My thought is, REAL autonomy is actually letting the toddler BE in control of bathtime. So, ds doesn't have frequent baths. lol.









:

This whole giving toddlers lots of choices to make up for the stuff they can't decide is totally barking up the wrong tree IMO.
Not because it undermines parental authority or makes us appear insecure/trying too hard to please, but because so many of these things are just not important to toddlers. Offering a choice when it's not requested/expected is placing unnecessary importance on trivial things and unnecessary pressure on the toddler to make the 'right' decision. For example, asking if dd wants to wear the red skirt or the blue skirt instead of just putting one on her is not only (falsely) giving her the message that it really matters which one she wears, but also burdening her with the responsibility of making a decision - without explaining to her why she might choose one over the other. This also means (to continue my example) that every time dd gets dressed from now on, she will expect to have to make this decision, will do so accordingly, and if anybody wants to challenge this decision, there will of course be conflict. I believe this kind of choice-giving makes toddlers more insecure and potentially leads to more conflicts/tantrums.
On the other hand, if, while I'm putting the red skirt on her, dd says 'I want to wear the blue one today', that decision should naturally be respected.
Sorry, I got a bit carried away







, I'm not saying anyone here does that, it's just something I see around a lot, and I have witnessed the trouble it can cause while working in a daycare centre.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

I just wanted to chime in and say that this has been the most helpful, thought provoking thread I've read on this forum to date. Thank you so much. I'm not in complete agreement with the articles, nor am I in complete agreement with Dal as much as I admire what she is doing with Simon. The whole thread has me evaluating when I give Elijah choices and when I don't. Yesterday Elijah was in a particularly feisty frame of mind, and I was exhausted. After his nap, I decided to be a bit more "in charge". When he wanted me to play computer games with him while I was preparing dinner, I very calmly told him that I did not want to play computer games right now, I was cooking our dinner. When he asked me again, I said, "no thankyou, I need to cook dinner now" In the past I would have been apologetic with him about it, making promisses of later. It was fascinating, because he totally accepted it, and moved on to a different activity (cooking in his toy kitchen and bringing me things to "eat"). I also found myself, when he would yell at me, very calmly saying to him, "I don't really enjoy being yelled at. Can you think of another way to ask me?" And...he would! And he was obviously proud of himself for doing so.

I guess I could never quit being "child centered". I enjoy spending time with Elijah way too much...but I understand the point of the articles in terms of the need for children to sense self-confidence in their parents.

I admire the CL concept, but must be honest that it just doesn't quite jive with who I am. I had a mom who gave us choices for everything, and was quite insecure (I'm NOT saying that a normal CL parent would be so, just relating my experience). I LONGED for her to show more authority and leadership in our family, not ask my opinion about everything. I also always sensed how frustrated and out of control she felt. I grew up feeling like I had to be her parent. It has been very important to me to show Elijah confidence - confidence in him and in myself. Again, I'm not saying that is the case wtih the majority of CL parents, nor would I even call my mom a CL parent...but because of my experience of being giving too many choices and too much adult authority in my family too soon, I just don't think the CL approach would be for me. And I must be honest that lately I think I've been giving Elijah choices about things he really would rather not have a choice about. The times when I simply say "we are going to have a bath tonight, it has been several nights and we need to get you clean", he may protest a bit, but as soon as I'm filling up the tub, he is in there, taking off his clothes, having a grand time. It is generally the same with his naptimes and bedtimes...which are not negotiable for me. He NEEDS them, I've seen what he is like without them. And, 99% of the time he does't get upset. I do those activities mama duck style. I don't argue with him, I don't offer a bunch of choices, I just make him warm milk, go into his room, and he follows me. We cuddle, read stories, then he turns on his white noise, turns off the light, and cuddles in while I rock him to sleep. Yes, he will sometimes say "I don't way to take a nap"...but when I DON'T argue, get upset, etc. and simply say "well honey, you need a nap because it keeps you healthy and happy" and proceed to go into his room, he happily follows. I think that for certain activities (and every parent needs to decide for themselves what are their non-negotiables, if any), leading mama duck style really seems to be working for me.

Anyhow, I'm still processing this, and must say I just admire each of you so much. You have taught me so much since I started coming here. I appologize because when I began posting on this forum I was almost always defensive...I was in a pretty bad space. It is so helpful to me that folks aren't monolithic here...that I am seeing a wide variety of parenting styles that all seem to be loving, gentle, courageous, etc. Dal, I think you may have a whole lot more patience and energy than I have. I really try to be creative...but sometimes, I think that it really isn't to Elijah's benefit. Sometimes I really do think he just needs me to make a decision. I wonder if some of this has to do with how different and unique each child is, and the need for us to shape our parenting style to our individual children's needs?


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sproutbabe* 







:

This whole giving toddlers lots of choices to make up for the stuff they can't decide is totally barking up the wrong tree IMO.
Not because it undermines parental authority or makes us appear insecure/trying too hard to please, but because so many of these things are just not important to toddlers. Offering a choice when it's not requested/expected is placing unnecessary importance on trivial things and unnecessary pressure on the toddler to make the 'right' decision. For example, asking if dd wants to wear the red skirt or the blue skirt instead of just putting one on her is not only (falsely) giving her the message that it really matters which one she wears, but also burdening her with the responsibility of making a decision - without explaining to her why she might choose one over the other. This also means (to continue my example) that every time dd gets dressed from now on, she will expect to have to make this decision, will do so accordingly, and if anybody wants to challenge this decision, there will of course be conflict. I believe this kind of choice-giving makes toddlers more insecure and potentially leads to more conflicts/tantrums.

On the other hand, if, while I'm putting the red skirt on her, dd says 'I want to wear the blue one today', that decision should naturally be respected.

Sorry, I got a bit carried away







, I'm not saying anyone here does that, it's just something I see around a lot, and I have witnessed the trouble it can cause while working in a daycare centre.

Very well said. And I don't think you got carried away. I have definitely been guilty of offering way too many choices for trivial things (really thinking that I was doing the right thing, being respectful of her and helping her to have some sense of control of her world).

Quote:

This is all very interesting. I could never and would never want a CL relationship with my children. This does not mean I think it is "wrong' or a bad way to raise kids, but its not for me.
I agree and feel the same way. However, I am still very interested in CL and always appreciate when CL mamas post their perspective because it does give me pause for further reflection. At least now I stop and ask myself why am I asking her to do XYZ (put on her coat to go outside) or saying that she can't do XYZ (like eat pretzels or goldfish crackers for breakfast). I now stop and ask if it is really important for her to do or not do these things or if I'm just flexing my parental muscles for the sake of being in control. Or if I'm concerned what people will say if they see me out with a half-dressed toddler on a cold day.

Quote:

I guess I could never quit being "child centered". I enjoy spending time with Elijah way too much.
I agree with this too! I am inspired by the articles (and other similar ones I've read) but I too love playing with my kids and being silly and having fun!

Quote:

Anyhow, I'm still processing this, and must say I just admire each of you so much. You have taught me so much since I started coming here. I appologize because when I began posting on this forum I was almost always defensive...I was in a pretty bad space. It is so helpful to me that folks aren't monolithic here...that I am seeing a wide variety of parenting styles that all seem to be loving, gentle, courageous, etc.
I agree. This is by far my favorite forum on MDC. Such intelligent and insightful mamas (and papas) here!









Oh and I know what you mean about getting defensive. I still find myself feeling that way when I'm in a rough patch in my life. When I'm at the end of my rope and I read a mama talking about how she turns her car into a space ship and her kids just run to the car laughing and playing I get all







:









But I keep coming back. And I keep reading and learning and growing and trying new things!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm wondering if some of those who are saying that CL is not for them are taking it to mean something different than I take it to mean, and that (from what I can gather) other CL parents take it to mean.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Yesterday Elijah was in a particularly feisty frame of mind, and I was exhausted. After his nap, I decided to be a bit more "in charge". When he wanted me to play computer games with him while I was preparing dinner, I very calmly told him that I did not want to play computer games right now, I was cooking our dinner. When he asked me again, I said, "no thankyou, I need to cook dinner now" In the past I would have been apologetic with him about it, making promisses of later. It was fascinating, because he totally accepted it, and moved on to a different activity (cooking in his toy kitchen and bringing me things to "eat"). I also found myself, when he would yell at me, very calmly saying to him, "I don't really enjoy being yelled at. Can you think of another way to ask me?" And...he would! And he was obviously proud of himself for doing so.

None of this is the least bit opposed to CL. I do this type of thing myself.


[/QUOTE] "Dal, I think you may have a whole lot more patience and energy than I have. I really try to be creative...but sometimes, I think that it really isn't to Elijah's benefit. Sometimes I really do think he just needs me to make a decision. I wonder if some of this has to do with how different and unique each child is, and the need for us to shape our parenting style to our individual children's needs?"[/QUOTE]

I'm patient, but don't feel that this is called upon as much as you might think, and I'm not really all that energetic (I should work at that though).

CL isn't about making decisions for our children that the children would rather we make for them. It's about knowing our children and respecting their perspectives and finding mutually agreeable solutions when conflicts arise. What you suggest sounds like it could be part of a CL way of life. CL is, to me, a natural and full extension of attachment parenting, so that CL parents should ideally be attentive to whether they are overwhelming their children with unnecessary choices and so on. It is not about giving children a multitude of choices that the children may or may not want to make. It is about respecting the child as a person and not coercing the child to act in this way or that for the parents' convenience or any other reason (with some exceptions aside).


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm getting a lot out of this thread too.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
When I'm at the end of my rope and I read a mama talking about how she turns her car into a space ship and her kids just run to the car laughing and playing I get all







:









This made me laugh. I can really relate to it even though my car is sometimes a space ship. If I were in a cranky mood, I'd most likely use a different strategy, perhaps by rushing the situation or being more matter-of-fact, perhaps letting Simon know that I'm feeling cranky and really need his co-operation. I might just pause and take a breather, maybe a long breather. He seems to get it. I don't think he's all that easy of a toddler. I actually think he's more on the high needs end of the spectrum, but I haven't spent a tonne of time around other toddlers so I can't say for sure.

I remember posting elsewhere awhile back about some frustrations I had with Simon and it seemed that I was being told to bask in the glory of his toddlerhood and just feel the love. That was hard to do when I was bored out of my flipping mind standing at a stoplight for 2 hours while he pushed a button.







I've since come up with better tactics to move on from such situations, though I might add that he truly did get his fill of the stoplight that day since he's not interested in playing with them anymore.


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

I don't know that I am adding anything of benefit here, but wanted to give my 2cents.

I also have felt like I was failing at being extra super creative, wonderful perfect AP mom. However, I have realized that 1) my expectations are not realistic for myself or my child and (2) I have a choice to be who I want to be.

Things I have noticed working:
1) Some type of schedule or flow to the day, everything goes more smoothly for both of us if our days have a predictable flow- especially important- plenty of outside free-flowing playtime
2) Take better care of myself, get more sleep, eat better, take time for myself; and forgive myself when I screw up- no one is perfect
3) Sometimes there are options, sometimes not... I try to make transitions as smooth as possible- I give warnings, give ample time, try to make things fun, however there comes a time we have to go ie mom has to go potty and he cannot stay outside by himself for ex. I tell him matter of factly then ask him if he can walk in by himself, or he wants me to carry him. Things go 200x times smoother then if I try to make things a game, or phrase things as a question, or give a million options that are really pointless. I get exasperated at putting the effort into it and it still not making a difference and he doesn't appreciate it either.
4) I have worked hard to sort out for us, what are the non-negotiables and what aren't = most things I don't stress about, but if I find something necessary for our family then it is what it is, it is stated and expected, no threats or punishments, no power struggles. I help him with whatever he is not able to do, without vengeance or anger


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
CL isn't about making decisions for our children that the children would rather we make for them. It's about knowing our children and respecting their perspectives and finding mutually agreeable solutions when conflicts arise. What you suggest sounds like it could be part of a CL way of life. CL is, to me, a natural and full extension of attachment parenting, so that CL parents should ideally be attentive to whether they are overwhelming their children with unnecessary choices and so on. It is not about giving children a multitude of choices that the children may or may not want to make. It is about respecting the child as a person and not coercing the child to act in this way or that for the parents' convenience or any other reason (with some exceptions aside).

Thank you! That was tremendously clarifying for me, Dal. I really appreciate it.

It is also such a relief to hear how "unperfect" you all feel. I have been overwhelmed lately with a sense of inadequacy as a parent. I'm learning a lot, but tend to be VERY hard on myself while I learn. As we prepare for number 2 to arrive in Jan., I'm finding myself in a bit of a panic. I have been SO centered around Elijah, feel like I spend so much of my time playing with him/catering to him/giving him these long beautiful extended bed time rituals,etc, and I'm thinking, "how in the world is this going to work?" I'm simply not going to have the time or energy with a newborn to turn by 2 year old's diaper changes or getting ready into a 1 hour game like we have been, and I feel like I need to change these patterns now before it gets too out of hand.

One of the things which might have messed me up a bit was Love and Logic - the first discipline book I read which advocated giving as many choices about as many unimportant things as possible so that when the important things came along, you can say "I give you lots of choices, but about this thing, I need you to do such and such" It really backfired for us. I think just as the pp said, giving a toddler chocies about things they have no desire to have a choice about can just set up unnecessary sense of responsibility on their part and unnecessary power struggles. I'm kind of weaning back on the whole choice thing now, and am trying to clue in to when Elijah really wants/needs a choice and autonomy.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mama* 
I don't know that I am adding anything of benefit here, but wanted to give my 2cents.

3) Sometimes there are options, sometimes not... I try to make transitions as smooth as possible- I give warnings, give ample time, try to make things fun, however there comes a time we have to go ie mom has to go potty and he cannot stay outside by himself for ex. I tell him matter of factly then ask him if he can walk in by himself, or he wants me to carry him. Things go 200x times smoother then if I try to make things a game, or phrase things as a question, or give a million options that are really pointless. I get exasperated at putting the effort into it and it still not making a difference and he doesn't appreciate it either.

I think your points are very beneficial and helpful.

If I have to pee, I also have to pee. I don't think many people expect CL to work perfectly with a toddler or young infant (or child for that matter). We can't always get perfect consensus, but we can return to a consensual space very quickly and minimize the amount of coercion that is used, and use various approaches to help make the transition less objectionable to the child. For any form of CL that I would advocate, there must be room in it for a lack of consensus to be resolved without turning the parent into a failure. In other words, so long as certain conditions are met (e.g., the child is treated with respect and empathy, power isn't appealed to arbitrarily, and so on) it is sometimes perfectly fine, perhaps sometimes even the most consensual way to go about things, for (e.g.) a parent who has to pee to swoop an unconsenting child away while aiming to minimize the amount of coercion involved.

In the past, while I was still sorting out how to interpret CL (which I'm still doing, but when I was more of a newbie at it -- now I guess I'm a toddleree)... anyway... I'd often hold my pee in for a looong time when Simon was busy engaged in an activity. I don't see that as CL; CL is about meeting the needs of everyone involved and needing to pee is something that shouldn't be pushed aside (or inside!) -- which is not to say that I mind holding it for awhile; I certainly don't abruptly grab Simon from whatever he's doing the second I feel a slight urge to pee. Taking Children Seriously seems to advocate bowing to the youngest child whenever there is a conflict. CL need not espouse this belief, so if there is a conflict that seems to need to be resolved quicker than seems feasible, one way to do this is to side with whoever's interest seems to be of greatest importance/urgency and try to find a way to make that as agreeable as possible to the other people involved. Simon's building a huge tower or whatever is important, but not more important than my need to meet a basic bodily need. If another toddler with us had to pee, we'd rush off to the bathroom. I can show more restraint and wait awhile, but I deserve the same basic respect.

I now see holding it in for a very long time as typically stemming from permissiveness or from a fear of causing any upset to one's child, however minor. (That said, I do think there are circumstances in which respecting the child would require holding it in, just as respecting one's partner may sometimes require this too, and sometimes we choose to hold it in on our own -- e.g., if Simon were in the middle of something rare, of limited duration, and extremely exciting for him and I had to pee badly because I drank a mumbo jumbo coffee on the way to the event, and going to the bathroom would mean that he would miss out on it in a pretty big way, I'd try my best to hold it and distract myself or think of a way for me to pee without disrupting what he's doing.)

Anyway... I have found that the more I practice, the more thinking I do about various options and the more I learn from other moms, the easier it becomes to find an agreeable way to move things along when there is a need to do so. I'd probably look for a slight break in Simon's activity, swoop him up, and tell him that I have to pee (and would have given him a warning when I first knew that I'd probably have to interrupt his playing for a pee break). If he protested, I might say something like, "Hey! I really have to pee! I don't want to pee in my pants. Can you imagine that!?! That would not be very comfortable! Hey, there is a dump truck over there. Do you see it?" If I weren't feeling the least bit silly, I might swoop him up and say something like this instead: "I have to pee. Let's go as quickly as we can." If he started to protest, I could add, "When someone has to pee, it's important to respect that. I need you to come to the bathroom with me. Do you want to count the trees on the way to the bathroom?" (It's hard to convey my tone online, but it's not the strict tone that might come to mind. It would probably be best to just drop the explanation and get to counting the trees or whatever else might distract him and then talk about the importance of respecting people's need to pee after he had returned to a good mood.) If the transition is done right (found through experimentation, thinking about how to go about it, and so on), Simon rarely ever protests and if he does protest, it's quite short and minimal.

(This gets a bit off topic but I blurted it out so I'll just leave it in here):
He's more likely to protest something like this if his needs haven't been met. If the protest seemed to be more than a todder version of "Aw, mom!" I'd think about whether his needs had been met and can pretty much always determine which need (or needs) have not been met. I then point him to his body to listen to its cues. He usually growls back in a silly voice: "I'M HUNGRY!" He doesn't think through a series of options yet (unless he's always hungry), but that's a start.







I tell him what I'm observing. He was really wound up tonight in the health food store. He's usually very co-operative and more or less socially acceptable (aside from going pretty fast in the stores), but tonight he was exhausted and was telling us that he didn't want us to buy the vegan uncheese slices we wanted. Perhaps he knew that they contain partially hydrogenated oils. I regretted buying them by the time we were on the way home so maybe I should have listened to him. He threw the slices from the cart, back onto the shelf. I was surprised at this and said something quickly about it and then put them back in the cart, saying that it's fine if he doesn't want any, but me and dh do want them so we're going to buy them. He had his arm up to throw them the second time and I asked him not to throw the slices. Usually he listens, but not tonight (in retrospect, he might have listened if I was positive instead, saying "please throw the slices down into the cart"). After he threw the uncheese slices from the cart for the second time, I said (with some surprise in my voice since this is unusual of him and not what I expect of him) something like: "Oh my! You are throwing food around! You are too tired to be shopping right now. Let's get out of here!" I swooped him out of the cart and we left. He didn't mind this. It wasn't the punishing type of "We're going now!" Dh was with us so we were able to wait outside. Once outside, I said something like: "Can you feel what is going on in your body? You were throwing food around in the grocery store! (said with the tone of OMG can you believe that?). Your body is telling you that you are really tired. Sometimes when we're tired, it's easy to be cranky or sad and it can be hard to co-operate. Next time, could you try really hard not to throw food in the grocery store, even if you are tired? I don't think the store owners like that and I think it's rude." He agreed that he'd try not to throw food in the future, but I don't know if he even got it considering how tired he was. It doesn't matter so much to me. He acted that way primarily because he was so tired and we're in the middle of changing his sleeping schedule around and he has some molars coming in too.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Thank you! That was tremendously clarifying for me, Dal. I really appreciate it.


I'm glad to hear it was helpful. Congrats on #2!









About the perfect parents thing... I know what you mean! I have one friend who is (or at least seems to be) the ultimate master of feeding her children. She bakes her own organic whole grain bread every day. Her daughter didn't eat any sugar until she was 3. They eat all organic produce. And yada yada yada. I was at her house not too long ago and her three year old son was devouring huge mouthfuls of avocado. Her children are always eating a lot of really healthy foods when I'm with them. They're also very agreeable and do whatever she says. They go to a different activity almost every day of the week: swimming lessons, ice skaing, soccer, music lessons, gymnastics, and whatever other fun activity she finds out about. It's easy to feel a bit defeated after spending time with them -- and this even though in truth, while I want to eat better, she is far more particular about food than I want to be and I don't want a schedule that is even half as busy as the one that she keeps up with.

I have this fantasy of finding a friend who is the ultimate CL unschooling mom with, say, a child who is 10 or older (just being a bit arbitrary there -- the point being that she has a lot of experience with CL) and a younger child aswell, about the age of my child (so that she has a fresh experience of what that entails). If anyone knows of such a person in the Burnaby/Vancouver area let me know.







My fantasy friend could help me out sooo much by offering ideas and by me simply seeing how she goes about things in her home. At the same time, I wonder if I ever had the opportunity to meet such a goddess if I'd end up leaving her house in a good mood and inspired or feeling like a failure. Probably a bit of both, or sometimes one way and then the other, depending on what was going on in my life at the time.


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## sproutbabe (May 31, 2006)

This is such a great thread guys, thanks so much for sharing







.
Dal, it's especially nice to read your definitions and concrete examples of CL, because even though I haven't read any of the relevant books or anything







: and am a total newbie to it, I have been very put off by some people who interpret and advocate it in what I see as the wrong way. I really like it as an idea and ideal, but I think many people end up seeking the consent of their children (often with too many questions!) for everything they do, rather than seeking mutually agreeable solutions. Also, it needs to be acknowledged (as you did) that this is not always possible, and that there is room for compromise - on both sides. I think this also helps to reduce parental guilt (not a healthy thing to be lugging around, I think we all agree). For example, I don't feel so bad about gently but firmly cutting short an activity to pee when I remind myself that an hour ago I read the same story a couple of times more than I would have liked, just because I saw how much pleasure dd was getting out of it.
Anyway, nothing to add really, just enjoying the discussion!


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## sproutbabe (May 31, 2006)

Oh yeah, and perfect parents are such a myth!
In parenting, as with anything in life, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. I think the best quality a parent can have is the desire to keep learning and improving. Which is why we're here, right?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 

I guess I could never quit being "child centered". I enjoy spending time with Elijah way too much...but I understand the point of the articles in terms of the need for children to sense self-confidence in their parents.

Same here. I guess, for me, TCC works to the best of both worlds because DS WANTS a lot of attention from me. But, I don't imagine I could ever go about my day ONLY paying attention to ds when he asks me to. In a few minutes, I'm going to go in and play trains with ds. Without his request







lol.
I guess, like everything, I take what feels right, and leave what doesn't.
I ttc'ed for 2 years before getting pg with ds. A baby was my biggest desire in the world. So, um, yeah. I'm not going to NOT play with him or hug him or kiss him when the mood strikes. lol

I gotta say, that when I tell ds what is going to happen (as opposed to asking him if its ok), then I respect his response to that, I feel like that is very much consensual.

*sproutbabe* ITA with what you said, and your example about giving choices that aren't important to dc's. It was a great example, and it wasn't going overboard


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi there,
I am a fellow "spirited-child" mama (I've been on the "spirited child" thread) and I can totally relate to you. I've been reading Kurcinka's "Kid's, Parents, and Power Struggles" this past week and the book really speaks to me. Maybe it would help you put the leader/teacher and GD together. Get out your h-lite pen


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

It sounds to me like you are on the right path, but you need to remember that just because you are working on being "more clear and direct" with your expectations, it doesn't mean the kids are going to follow along right away. They need time to adjust to your new style and how it fits in with the big picture of their lives and their own sense of power. Just keep up the good work on your side, it will fall into place eventually. I found the age of your oldest to be one of the toughest stages with my son in terms of how we were able to communicate and accomplish tasks. Hang in there!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

You all are welcome to check out the Consensual Living web site:
http://www.consensual-living.com/
There are several articles about CL, a suggested book list, link to the discussion group, etc. on there.

Or the Consensual Living Yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/
We have over 400 members posting questions related to CL "how to" and practical discussions, especially about toddlers, husbands and in-laws.

Dal and Deva33, I loved your posts.

Pat


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sproutbabe* 
...I think many people end up seeking the consent of their children (often with too many questions!) for everything they do, rather than seeking mutually agreeable solutions.

This was what I was doing after I first read about CL on this forum. And I would cycle back and forth between feeling really connected and positive about our relationship to feeling angry and like a complete failure at getting anyone's needs met -- especially my own. I decided that, as much as I agreed with the idea of CL, I was going to ignore it and go back to my instincts, which are more of an empathic mama duck style. Our lives immediately became calmer and more positive.

Now, reading this thread, I think I was misinterpreting CL. But I think it must be easy to do so! Why is that?

Also, I think the 'perfect parent' issue is deep seated in many of us -- it certainly is for me. It is so important to extend compassion to ourselves, and it is SO important to teach our kids how to do that for themselves. We are not ever going to be "perfect" -- that's a given, so let's prepare for it by learning to love and connect in the midst of all our imperfection. I really don't think our goals for parents should be so strictly behavioral, but more connection-related. My experience of CL on this forum in the past has been very rule-bound and more behavioral (for the parents). None of the people advocating it ever seemed that way, but when I tried it I always seemed that way. Things have been better since I have gone back to letting myself figure it out with ds, not with a set of rules in my head.

Here's something Marshall Rosenburg (NVC guy) said about the perfection thing:
"So in closing I offer you that reassuring advice given to me by my daughter, that nobody's perfect, to remember that anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly. And the job of parenting, of course, is extremely worth doing, but we're going to do it poorly at times. If we're going to be brutal with ourselves when we're not perfect parents, our children are going to suffer for that. I often tell the parents that I'm working with that hell is having children and thinking that there's such a thing as a good parent.<...>So the goal I would suggest is not to be perfect parents, it's to become progressively less stupid parents -- by learning from each time that we're not able to give our children the quality of understanding that they need, that we're not able to express ourselves honestly. In my experience, each of these times usually means that we're not getting the emotional support we need as parents, in order to give our children what they need."
(Now, I have to be careful about reading Marshall R., because I can get rule-bound with some of his ideas, but the above quote has really helped me let myself read him, lol.)

Thanks for the discussion, ladies.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
Now, reading this thread, I think I was misinterpreting CL. But I think it must be easy to do so! Why is that?

I think because of how we are conditioned by society to view kids. Society has a very "if you give them and inch they'll take a mile" viewpoint.
Um, ok, I have no idea how to finish my thought here. But my final answer is that society has conditioned us wrong. lol


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I think I was misinterpreting CL. But I think it must be easy to do so! Why is that?
I love that quote of Marshall Rosenberg's. There also is an NVC-Parenting yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nvc-parenting/

Btw, we are working on FAQ's about Consensual Living for the web site, if anyone has suggested questions, we'd love to hear them.

Thanks,

Pat


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindacrunchy* 
Hi there,
I am a fellow "spirited-child" mama (I've been on the "spirited child" thread) and I can totally relate to you. I've been reading Kurcinka's "Kid's, Parents, and Power Struggles" this past week and the book really speaks to me. Maybe it would help you put the leader/teacher and GD together. Get out your h-lite pen









Thanks. I will check it out. As you know, her other book really helped me a lot so I'm very open to reading more by Kurcinka.

Quote:

I think because of how we are conditioned by society to view kids. Society has a very "if you give them and inch they'll take a mile" viewpoint.

Um, ok, I have no idea how to finish my thought here. But my final answer is that society has conditioned us wrong. lol
I hear what you are saying here but I kind of feel like I get into the "if you give them an inch they'll take a mile" thing with my DD quite often. More positively phrased, I feel like she keeps pushing...is this the boundary, mama? Is THIS the boundary, mama? What about THIS mama?

Lately she's been not wanting to nap mid-day. I understand and respect this but I absolutely need to have a break in order to keep myself together until DH gets home (about a half an hour before the kids go down for the night).

So I talked to her about it. It's ok if your body doesn't feel tired but mama needs some quiet mama time so you can play in your room. And she totally does need to nap or at least have some downtime or she ends up being miserable all afternoon/evening. So I also talked to her about that. And on days when she hasn't napped and she's miserable late afternoon, I've tried to help her notice how she's feeling and that she would probably feel better if she had taken a nap. She usually agrees.

So today...

She asked me to take her up for a nap. We went up nursed, read books, snuggled etc. I kissed her and left the room. She asked to have her door open. Sure honey.

WEnt in my room to rock DS to sleep.

A few minutes later she's up and hopping around her room. Is it ok to go get my baby mama? Yes. But I remind her that I'm putting DS to sleep now and she needs to be quiet. Get your baby and then right back up into your room.

Ok mommy.

But it continues...she comes into our bedroom and starts talking to me. I politely remind her that's it's quiet time and once Quinn is asleep I can come help her get settled.

She leaves the room and starts playing loudly outside the door. Then banging on the door.

I'm starting to feel my blood pressure rise.

Finally manage to get DS down (despite her noise on the other side of the door).

Go into her room and tell her that I'm frustrated that she kept being so loud and that when mama says it's quiet time, she needs to play quietly. I hug/kiss her and tell her (again) that it's quiet time and I need to close her door becuase she didn't stay in her room.

She has a total meltdown that lasts for about 3-4 minutes. And then begins playing quietly in her room and reading books.

I'm not sure where this is going to go -- other than the fact that I am SURE that I need some time without her needing me or talking to me or nursing or asking me for anything -- and it seems to me that if *I* don't set some sort of boundary here....she can't and won't do it herself.

This is kind of a tangent here but I see where the "give 'em an inch, they take a mile" mentality comes in. And this is just one small example of how she'll test the boundaries, but then respect them when I "enforce" them. It could be getting into the carseat (oh and Dal...I posted a thread a while back. I waited an hour for her to get in her carseat once. I looked at it as my Yoga practice and I meditated and worked through all my emotions that were coming up. But after an hour I lost it and physically forced her into her seat.







) or not staying on the side of the road when we're walking around the neighborhood.

I definitely feel like she is in a stage or testing the boundaries and asking me (and the other caring adults in her life) to show her what's ok and what's not.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I really am loving this thread as well, and can relate to a lot of it (dharmama already knows that we have the same child in two different locations...







). I have also felt at times like DD needs us to lead more strongly. I also so often feel like my head is FULL of conflicting parenting advice, and that it totally muddles me. I think some of you can relate to that, maybe?

I have found that some of the "mamaduck" approach does work for me, coupled with the "Secret of Parenting" approach that maya44 has helped me learn about. The most important thing, we've found, is NOT to get sucked into arguing, back-and-forth, or escalations of tone. Stay cheerful, calm, and matter-of-fact, and do not act like it is a big deal to you, because as soon as it is a big deal to us, it is a big deal to her (we've found.)

An example of how this has worked for us...

DD is actually a toddler who actively asks for choices constantly (maybe we have encouraged this...who knows). She wants to choose which bib to wear, what animal to take to school, which cookie cutter to bring to the tub, etc., all day long. We don't mind her doing these things, but we have a tendency to want her to do them faster, especially now that we both work full-time and our lives move faster. So, it used to go like so...

DD, what animal do you want to take to school today?
(Nothing happens.)
DD, what animal is going to come today?
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we need to go now. Choose an animal, please.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we have to go right now. Choose an animal now.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we HAVE to go. Mama is going to be late. Choose an animal.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, pick one. Pick one NOW, please. Come on. NOW, or we'll have to leave without one.
DD: Nooooo!








:
(This has taken at least 10-15 minutes, btw.)

This works much better this way:
DD, it's time to choose an animal.
(Go about one's business for as long as one can possibly stand to till DD hopefully brings an animal.)

The flaw in this approach is that it doesn't always work, of course. Sometimes they don't do what you've cheerfully asked and waited for, and then it gets tricky. However, we find that this IS successful a lot of the time if we can just keep our big mouths shut and WAIT a minute a two.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I also so often feel like my head is FULL of conflicting parenting advice, and that it totally muddles me. I think some of you can relate to that, maybe?

I have found that some of the "mamaduck" approach does work for me, coupled with the "Secret of Parenting" approach that maya44 has helped me learn about. The most important thing, we've found, is NOT to get sucked into arguing, back-and-forth, or escalations of tone. Stay cheerful, calm, and matter-of-fact, and do not act like it is a big deal to you, because as soon as it is a big deal to us, it is a big deal to her (we've found.)

The conflicting parenting advice really is muddling me as well. It is not just mainstream vs. AP, it is conflicting advice within the realm of AP. I feel really muddled, but agree that staying calm, cheerful, matter-of-fact, etc make all the difference. DS can totally tell when things are a big deal or I am getting stressed about something.

I HATE physically forcing a diaper change or a carseat buckle-up. It just feels wrong. But what I dislike even more is how upset my son is (and I am) when we end up not doing something he really wanted to do because we spent too much time doing the diaper change/carseat dance. I try to make sure that I've given him time to play, and give warnings ("when the timer goes off, we are changing your diaper







. Try to make it fun and playful. But sometimes (often when he is just too tired), the only thing to do is to just do it, as gently as possible. I know that is unaccetable to some here...and I understand why. What is so strange is that after I have ended up having to physically hold him down while I change his diaper, most of the time he acts like it was no big deal...just goes on with life as normal (as long as I've kept my cool and acted like it was no big deal). It is when I'm upset about it that he gets upset. Same with carseat. His emotional reaction to things seems to have a lot more to do with how I'm handling it emotionally than anything else.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
What is so strange is that after I have ended up having to physically hold him down while I change his diaper, most of the time he acts like it was no big deal...just goes on with life as normal (as long as I've kept my cool and acted like it was no big deal). It is when I'm upset about it that he gets upset. Same with carseat. His emotional reaction to things seems to have a lot more to do with how I'm handling it emotionally than anything else.

I totally agree with this. And I think one of the most important things I've learned so far (and will continue to learn over and over) is to be aware of my energy and that I'm coming from my heart.

Whether it's choosing what technique to use or when I need to lovingly enforce (can anyone think of a nicer word than enforce? I've used it twice today and both times it makes me







because it sounds so severe) a boundary like bedtime, diaper changes or carseat...if I can breathe and get centered FIRST it goes SO much better and I feel so much better.

I have physically forced my DD to do something (diaper change, carseat, sit in the stroller) while being centered and calm and full of love for her and myself and I have also physically forced my DD to do the same kinds of things when I was angry and totally unglued. The latter feels TERRIBLE and I always have guilt/saddness as soon as the moment passes.

Quote:

DD, what animal do you want to take to school today?
(Nothing happens.)
DD, what animal is going to come today?
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we need to go now. Choose an animal, please.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we have to go right now. Choose an animal now.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, we HAVE to go. Mama is going to be late. Choose an animal.
(Nothing happens. DD is still staring at the animals.)
DD, pick one. Pick one NOW, please. Come on. NOW, or we'll have to leave without one.
DD: Nooooo!
The only thing I would do differently here is that I often say...

Hey Lily. Please make a choice or mama will make one for you. (Wait. No response.) Ok...I chose the zebra to come -- to which she will immediately say...NO! The lion. And I might say. Oh. Sorry zebra. Maybe tomorrow. Today is lion's day now let's boogie-woogie!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
The most important thing, we've found, is NOT to get sucked into arguing, back-and-forth, or *escalations of tone*.

ain't that the truth!!
ime, when the tone escalates, you are at the beginning of the end, my friend. lol.
Hmmm...perhaps I'll have to make a new rule for myself: If my tone escalates, I need a time out (in the form of playing and having fun with ds). But really, I do think that it would be a good rule of thumb to just STOP when that voice gets that whiney, insistant tone. I've personally never had a good result after that point. lol

I also think what you said about just giving dc a minute or two to do something, was sooooo very true. Patience is a virtue (at least I tell my ds that. hmmm...maybe he ought to start telling ME that!) No, I'm pretty good at giving him time, and you are right. That's usually all it takes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama*
I HATE physically forcing a diaper change or a carseat buckle-up. It just feels wrong. But what I dislike even more is how upset my son is (and I am) when we end up not doing something he really wanted to do because we spent too much time doing the diaper change/carseat dance.

I think that touches on why I'm not CL. I do try to find as many consensual solutions as possible. But sometimes, I feel like its a choice of the lesser of two evils. And, if that involves me putting a shirt on ds, when he has said no, I will. If not putting it on means that dp will be going to the store without him, or that dp will try to get ds to CHOOSE to get his shirt on, which at that point becomes some wierd sort of "struggle" between them, wherein dp's voice tone escalates (dp doesn't coerce). It seems that just putting the shirt on is much less frustrating for everyone- including ds.
Now, for diapers, now that ds is older he seems quite aware that that area is HIS. So I do NOT force diaper changes. I can't see that would ever be the lesser of two evils for him.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

Now, for diapers, now that ds is older he seems quite aware that that area is HIS. So I do NOT force diaper changes. I can't see that would ever be the lesser of two evils for him.
Does he resist diaper changes Becky?

My DD will walk around with a poopy diaper for hours rather than consent to a diaper change.









My new mantra with her is that if she doesn't want to have her diaper changed she needs to start using the potty and wearing underwear. Otherwise, it's my job to keep her healthy and part of that is changing poopy diapers in a (relatively) timely manner.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

ime, when the tone escalates, you are at the beginning of the end, my friend. lol.
So true for us too. And yet...AND YET...there is some weird subconscious voice, isn't there, telling you that you need to use the "I MEAN IT" tone? There sure is in my head. It's kind of trippy.

About diaper changes: you know, it's so funny. Diapers were such a huge battle for us for such a long time. We tried everything, including letting her stew in the dirty dipe (with rashy results). I have no idea how or when, but this has stopped being a battle. Man, I wish I knew what changed so I could pass on the advice! The only thing that I can probably say was a factor was that we stopped using prefolds and Snappis and went to a system that we could put on her while she stood.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

FWIW ~ I started another thread...kind of a spin-off from this discussion...hoping to maybe inspire us to identify all the things that we are doing that *ARE* working with our kiddos!

It just seemed to me that there are so many great ideas being generated here. Might be nice to see them all in one place.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

One last thing before I go veg out with DH...

Quote:

So true for us too. And yet...AND YET...there is some weird subconscious voice, isn't there, telling you that you need to use the "I MEAN IT" tone? There sure is in my head. It's kind of trippy.
This totally made me









Sometimes I have an urge to do the dreaded threatening count. I have never done it with DD (I do count to encourage her to do things....I'm going to count 5. I need you to be in your carseat when I get to 5 or I will help you) but I have just heard SO MANY parents doing the ONE...(death stare)....TWO (pretending like they are actually going to get up and do something)....THREE...it that I sometimes think of doing it.







:


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I have been reading this thread with interst as this is something I really struggle with. In my 4 1/2 years of being a mother, I find that I HAVE to be a strong leader. It is really hard to keep that balance of being gentle and "firm" as opposed to "wishy-washy" which I have a tendency to be.









I have been debating posting this, but I think it might help some people. I find that the gentle discipline board on www.gentlechristianmothers.com is a really good resource for people who are want to be gentle and avoid punishments, shaming, etc., etc but also wish to be strong leaders and have children which require strong boundries. The GD there seems to be more of "gentle, yet firm" type. Even if you don't agree with the religious views of that board (christian)..I think their gentle discipline advice is very good and I find it if very helpful. Along those same lines, there is a very good website. www.aolff.org which is written by a pastor (so again Christian), but she has some great articles on gentle discipline..and her discipline is of the more "firm boundry" variety, while still being gentle. She doesn't believe in punishments, shaming, time-out, yelling, etc..however she does believe in having boundries and limits and enforcing them in a gentle manner.

The other thing I wanted to add, is something which really helps me a lot, is to stop and THINK before I answer any question or do anything. I think how important my answer is to me, and if I am willing to deal with an unhappy child who doesn't like the answer. For example, if my 2-year old asks for cheese for the 3rd time today...I stop and think about my answer. I consider all the reasons for saying yes/no (ie., too much cheese makes her constipated, on the other hand it is her favorite food and resonably healthy, it is messy (she likes the shredded kind)., what I am in the midde of doing, is it something I really want to "buy peace" for (like exercise), etc., etc.) . Anyway, in my mind I consider all the reaons for letting her have it, and then answer and be prepared to deal with her big feelings if she doesn't like my answer.

The other thing is I do think a level of consistency is important. I do think it is hard for children to understand why they can play in the car before getting in the carseat today, but tomorrow we will have an appointment to keep and they need to get in it right away. I find that it helps to have routines and things which we ALWAYS do. Like we always get right into the carseat as soon as we get into the car. I do not have the patience to wait while they sit and play in the car. I really don't, and I don't think I should have to. So, since we always get right into the car, we just do it. I also find that getting past a few diaper changing struggles, will result smoother changes. I just have to say "we are going to change the diaper" and then change it. Not that this needs to be rigid or anything..and all children are different. But, I do find that if we just make a point of doing something the same way every time, it helps a lot. There may be a few times of struggle, but usually when we can plug on past them and things work out.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Amelia!! I am always so grateful for your posts!!







We really should try to get together sometime!!









I fall into the wishy-washy thing way too much. And I have also been doing what you suggested and not answering right away to play things through in my head and be sure that I am comfortable with my answer. Definitely helps.

Thanks for the links. I will check them out.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Does he resist diaper changes Becky?


no. Not a poopy diaper anyways.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

subbing...


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
One last thing before I go veg out with DH...

This totally made me









Sometimes I have an urge to do the dreaded threatening count. I have never done it with DD (I do count to encourage her to do things....I'm going to count 5. I need you to be in your carseat when I get to 5 or I will help you) but I have just heard SO MANY parents doing the ONE...(death stare)....TWO (pretending like they are actually going to get up and do something)....THREE...it that I sometimes think of doing it.







:


















I remember my Aunt telling her kids 2, 2 and-a-haaaAAAAALLLFFF!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I think I even did the threatening count once.







It didn't work, of course!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
















I remember my Aunt telling her kids 2, 2 and-a-haaaAAAAALLLFFF!

hehehe that was my mom. She'd go on to 2 and nine tennnnnnnthsssss....
On the bright side, we learned fractions at an early age. lol


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

Amelia!! I am always so grateful for your posts!! We really should try to get together sometime!!

Aw shucks! LOL. Defintely! I keep trying to get to a RI Birth Network meeting, but it never seems to work out.


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## Always_Evolving (Sep 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Sometimes I have an urge to do the dreaded threatening count. I have never done it with DD (I do count to encourage her to do things....I'm going to count 5. I need you to be in your carseat when I get to 5 or I will help you) but I have just heard SO MANY parents doing the ONE...(death stare)....TWO (pretending like they are actually going to get up and do something)....THREE...it that I sometimes think of doing it.







:

Thanks to all of you for this wonderful thread.

Dharmama: can you explain a bit... I don't mean this in a snarky way but isn't it kind of threatening to do this: "I'm going to count 5. I need you to be in your carseat when I get to 5 or I will help you)" ...
What happens when you get to 5? Is DD already in the carseat? Mine just says "no" :-(

Yesterday I tried just letting her play in five minute increments before getting buckled up. DD kept saying "5 mins more okay?" and I decided to let her exhaust her need to explore. After 20 mins we went over what we'd do when we got back home. After 30+ mins I really lost it and ended up shoving her into the carseat.

After a point I run out of ideas and it made both of us really sad. The main thing I am struggling with is hearing "no" for *everything*.

Edited to add: Any advice on dealing with the constant "nos"?


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

Dharmama: can you explain a bit... I don't mean this in a snarky way but isn't it kind of threatening to do this: "I'm going to count 5. I need you to be in your carseat when I get to 5 or I will help you)" ...
What happens when you get to 5? Is DD already in the carseat? Mine just says "no" :-(
I think the difference is that when I see other parents doing the threat count there is usually punishment (usually time out or taking away a toy or fun activity) if they don't do what they are supposed to do and I think (I hope







) what I'm doing is more of a logical consequence.

Also when I'm counting I do so very slowly and I cheer her on as I go. One...oh I hope you can do this....two...I know you can do it all by yourself...three...come on Lily....four....I'm almost to 5, hurry or I'm going to help you....

It feels different to me than what I heard a mama at a party bragging that she never gets to three because her kids are SO scared of what will happen if she does.









Does that make any sense?

And when she says no or doesn't get in her carseat. I calmly (ideally...I'm not perfect there have been plenty of times where it hasn't been calm and gentle) tell her that I'm helping her get in her carseat because it seemed like she was having trouble doing it herself.


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## Always_Evolving (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks for clarifying Dharmama. Yes that helps... I tried the counting but more like an egging on "you can do it!" for something else yesterday and it did work! Will try with the carseat thing as well.

Sorry don't have time to post more. Will do that at some point when my DD doesn't climb on and put the computer in 'hibernate' :-(


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Also when I'm counting I do so very slowly and I cheer her on as I go. One...oh I hope you can do this....two...I know you can do it all by yourself...three...come on Lily....four....I'm almost to 5, hurry or I'm going to help you....

this was great! I used it yesterday for a diaper change and it worked like a charm. I started using counting a few months ago in a fun way, and he loved it (kind of like a race), but I was starting to sound more like the PP's aunt. This really helped!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I would go to great lengths to avoid forcing my will against my child's will in a physical way. (Obviously this doesn't apply to such situations as quickly grabbing Simon if he were about to run into a moving car.) I find that in the past when things seemed nearly hopeless and it took hours to get Simon to agree to get into his carseat (when he finally fell asleep), I just hadn't been very creative. I know that may not come across well, maybe that's not the case for you, but that is how it was for us. I'd be trying the same approach or slight variations of it -- none of which were working -- over and over and over. With some creativity the problem was solved and we're able to re-use the same creative ideas now -- plus having had so much time to explore the car has made it far less appealing as a play centre and more appealing as a means of transportation. The creativity required from us was not really all that much, it just took me a long time to start flexing my creativity muscles, since I guess I'm just not overly bothered by waiting for a loooong time until ds is ready to get into his seat or maybe I took on a defeated attitude to begin with. I am so glad I stuck it out as I feel so strongly opposed to forcing a child into a full-body harness against the child's will! Another woman I know forced her ds into his seat and one day responded that they're no longer having that issue and that, unfortunately, she thinks what worked is that he was "broken." Coincidentally, we had also gotten beyond this issue, though we did not feel that we had broken our son in the process. Rather, we felt that we had shown him a great deal of respect and patience.

If CIO is horrible when parents feel a desparate need for sleep, why is stuffing children into carseats despite their hard-core protests to the contrary o.k. simply because a parent feels a need to move on with their day? What about saying that CIO is o.k. because without it, the child would be sleep deprived and not have a good time the next day? We see through these excuses (there are other ways to help children sleep), but giving up and not looking for alternatives seems o.k. in relation to the carseat issue, getting dressed, and so on, which seem comparable to me to CIO and involve an actual physical battle with the child.

I was reading guidelines for dentistry students the other day and restraining children when they are protesting against this was strongly advised against unless it was absolutely necessary for safety reasons. The advice was to always use the least amount of restraint necessary, preferably none. The rationale was that restraint comes with such risks as: loss of dignity, humiliation, and physical and psychological harm. Though it seems that most dentists who work with young children do not follow this advise, it was urged that the child be let go if any extreme upset was apparent for fear of traumatizing the child.

As I see things, being physically restrained (and physically forced to do something as well) is disempowering and has definite parallels to rape, minus the sexual aspect of course, and in this case it's supposedly for the best interests of the child (or maybe not). I read an account from a mother who was forcing her daughter into her seat and the daughter said "[Mom's first name], don't force me!". The incident triggered the mother's strong and intense memories of suffering incest as a child, yet she didn't change her method and considers it a necessary evil.

[An inside for those who have read Alice ******'s _For Your Own Good_ -- it's interesting to think about how ****** might describe what is going on here. As she argues in that book, adults often recreate similar scenarios (don't take this too literally!) to what was done to them as children and justify them via faith in a poisonous pedagogy. They are ostensibly acting for the child's own good, because so doing is inevitable, or some other such excuse even though you'd think they ought to see the parallels that are right before their eyes. Until the adult fully deals with and recognizes the past trauma for what it truly was, s/he is apt to repeat variations of past cycles of abuse. I see time-outs as replacing spankings in much the same way. We know that spankings were wrong, but we (as a culture) don't fully get into why or how we felt in relation to them, and to other punishments, so we do this to our own children, and often do so in a way to maintain respect for our parents and our sense of them as decent, loving people (which spankers or not they may well be, but we find it hard to see loving people as capable of horrible acts against us). Usually psychoanalysis just annoys me to no end, and I really don't know what to make of it, but I feel that there is something insightful about ******'s arguments. Maybe what I like about them can be retained without any faith in psychoanalysis.]

I think that anyone who forces their will on their child in physical ways ought to research it and think long and hard about the experience for the child, the impact on the relationship, and the possibility of psychological and even physical harm, possibly even trauma. (I don't know whether those posting here have done this and arrived at different conclusions.)

I may be over-reacting, but maybe I'm not. I've heard about adults who still suffer from being restrained to have their teeth brushed, who, as with (other) trauma survivors, sometimes feel that their past suffering and humiliation is triggered by things that remind them of it.

It's easy to see that the child doesn't look traumatized or upset later in the day, or even shortly after, and take that as evidence that physical coercion is no big deal. Children sometimes seem A-OK after what we'd all agree is the nasty treatment of them too and often have honeymoon periods after corporal punishment (another form of physical coercion)...

Agree with me or disagree, but please don't just follow along with forcing one's child into their seat or forcing a toothbrush into their mouth, forcing clothes on them and the like simply (or not so simply) because it seems so dang inconvenient or difficult to find another way and because they seem fine after the fact. Even if you feel really strongly that they are fine after the fact, I think more thought needs to be given to the suffering involved in the experience itself. If we really respect that depth of suffering and humiliation, is whatever it was done for a reasonable trade-off? I hope that anyone who would resort to such extreme actions (imo) would first think really long and hard and do some research about what this might do or say to one's child.

When physical coercion was removed as an option in our lives, we were able to find workable solutions to get done what needs to get done or we've decided that for some issues it is better to lower our standards for awhile than to force the issue. We've found that there are other ways out there to accomplish the same goals and these need not be tedious and drawn out, even though some or even a lot of tedium may be involved while the methods that work are found. More needs to be done to share these ideas so that others can benefit from all of the tedium those of us who've denounced physical coercion have sometimes gone through while searching for approaches that work, as well as sharing methodological ideas about how to arrive at mutually agreeable solutions.

I don't feel like bashing my head against a wall when Simon jumps into a "firetruck" and we play a game to get him into the car, or when I simply start the car and say with a bit of urgency that it's time to go (which, when we finally started to get creative, we discovered works 99% of the time!). Had I forced Simon into his seat, I would have extremely violent reactions to this of my own and probably cry a lot myself. I feel that we are meant to respect our children's protests and to help them out in such circumstances rather than be the one who is pinning them down (no one should pin them down unless doing so is truly in their best interests). I do not want to become desensitized to his protests against me. I think he has an inborn sense of justice and that his protests are part of his contribution to the ongoing discovery of what works best for us. (I'm being totally frank here. Hopefully others can read a position that may conflict with theirs without taking it as a personal attack, or an attack of any kind, for that matter. I don't mean to offend, though I can see how my ideas might provoke offense/defensive feelings. I want to share a conflicting opinion since, clearly, I think there is something to it. While I'll stand by my position unless I have reason to adjust it, I agree that it's possible that I'm over-reacting.)

I feel good about taking the time to find creative solutions. Enduring and getting through the carseat ordeal brings feelings of pride to me rather than feelings of shame or painful memories. I now think that our 6 hour stint outside of Tim Horton's one winter night when Simon was a little babe who refused his carseat is amusing. I remember it fondly. I did force him into his seat once or twice (which was really minor compared to other "stuffing a child into a carseat" stories I've heard, probably because he was quite young at the time). I feel shame about those experiences, but can also say that I learned from them, and I'm proud of that. I listened to what he was telling me and to what my own strong reactions were telling me and I apologized to him and vowed to NEVER do that again. I told him that it was not o.k. to do that to him. He looked fine a few minutes after being stuffed into his seat as though he were a suitcase that didn't really fit into the trunk but had to be forcibly shoved into place so that we could go along our merry (or not so merry) way. That did not convince me that his pain wasn't real or important, or that I could be sure that treating him in this way wasn't damaging to our relationship or to him in more long-term ways.

In relation to the carseat, I believe that forcing another person into what is nearly a full-body restraint against their will, especially in conjunction with their intense protests to the contrary, is a very risky and disrespectful thing to do. I still have painful memories about being pushed into the snow against my will by a man who I was very attracted to and was dating. He was being playful (a bit macho, but well-intentioned, perhaps) and his actions had that strong of an effect on me. It felt horrid. I felt completely powerless against him, humiliated and incompetent. I didn't rush off home or anything like that. Everything seemed just fine 2 minutes after the fact, after I told him that I didn't appreciate that and didn't want to play that way (to which he probably said that I was taking it too hard and needed to lighten up). I didn't leave. I stayed and had a good time with him. This didn't minimize the fact that the experience was a profoundly negative one for me (and also instructive too, since I can scarcely imagine how horrible it would be to actually be in a situation in which the person would not respect what I had to say and stop using force against me). I lost a lot of trust in him that day. I don't want to do things to Simon that would lead to the less extreme pain that I remember feeling, let alone the more unspeakable pain that I'm sure I can no more imagine than someone who has never laboured (without numbing meds that were working as intended) can imagine the pain of transition. Many, perhaps most, women who have felt agonizing pains during labour can't really remember what it was like, except that it was intensely painful. They can seem, and feel, great after the fact too. This does not mean that their pain was of no consequence. (Thinking about it more, an unhappy painful experience would probably offer a better analogy, and one that is more clearly psychological in nature, but hopefully I've been able to convey what I'm trying to convey.)

Take me as overly concerned if you please, but this is how I feel. I want to share these thoughts as I believe that it's common to not give a great deal of thought to how this type of experience might affect a child. I feel that we need to exercise extreme caution when it comes to physically forcing children to do things against their will.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

There is simply too much to reply to now, other than to say you have given me a lot to think about.

My initial thought is that creativity works great WHEN Elijah is not overtired, but when he is overtired, I have found that all the creativity in the world simply leads to more melting down, more struggles, and has never finally led to cooperation, and I consider myself a creative and patient parent. When he is overtired, and I allow a situation to continue, I feel that I am not doing him any service as a parent. And I will be honest that allowing such a situation to continue for 6 hours when I'm pregnant and tired and need to care for myself as well is not a viable option. It also would not be a viable option when there are more than 1 child involved, which will be our situation very soon.

But, what you have said makes a lot of sense, and I know that, what a friend refers to as "felony car seat bucklings and felony diapaer changes" feels WRONG. But I haven't been as successful with creative alternatives as you have when I have an overtired child...and no matter how hard I try, somtimes he is just overtired. I guess I find myself feeling frustrated because every time I read your posts, I somehow feel like "I'm just not a good enough parent.", when I am trying SO hard to be creative, fun, loving, etc.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ejsmama*


There is simply too much to reply to now, other than to say you have given me a lot to think about.

My initial thought is that creativity works great WHEN Elijah is not overtired, but when he is overtired, I have found that all the creativity in the world simply leads to more melting down, more struggles, and has never finally led to cooperation, and I consider myself a creative and patient parent. When he is overtired, and I allow a situation to continue, I feel that I am not doing him any service as a parent. And I will be honest that allowing such a situation to continue for 6 hours when I'm pregnant and tired and need to care for myself as well is not a viable option. It also would not be a viable option when there are more than 1 child involved, which will be our situation very soon.

But, what you have said makes a lot of sense, and I know that, what a friend refers to as "felony car seat bucklings and felony diapaer changes" feels WRONG. But I haven't been as successful with creative alternatives as you have when I have an overtired child...and no matter how hard I try, somtimes he is just overtired. I guess I find myself feeling frustrated because every time I read your posts, I somehow feel like "I'm just not a good enough parent.", when I am trying SO hard to be creative, fun, loving, etc.


I have a blathering issue. I hope you don't mind a long-winded response!

I'm sad to hear that you are feeling the same way (I'm guessing) when reading my posts as I sometimes feel when I spend time with a certain friend and her (seemingly) picture-perfect family. She has adorable children, a 5 year old girl and a 3 year old boy (I hope to someday have one of each), who both seem destined to thrive and to glide through life with grace and little difficulty, who gobble up healthy food like most kids gobble up candy. We were taking music lessons together and her son was so into it, doing all the "right" moves and confidently participating and getting a lot out of the class. The teacher loves to compliment them on their musicality, which is a trait I'd LOVE to have. This friend is into the CC and her son does some fancy stunts on his bike and whatnot already -- at 3! Her children also seem to do whatever she says (I'm not sure whether to be freaked out by this or what.) At the music classes, my son wanted to be held most of the time, didn't want to try much of what he was "supposed" to do, took off during one of the classes to play with another child (what fun to dance on my own with the group!), and he was overtired because we're trying to get off a screwed up schedule, which seems to be the case more often than it is not as we're always gravitating to late hours. Her kids' teeth are probably just fantastic too and we're dealing with what to do with cavaties in our son and don't feel confident that his teeth are getting taken care of as would be ideal, but we refuse to pin him down and our creative/informed/acceptable options have only been marginally successful in this realm (that is our biggest issue to date, by far -- I have more information now to hopefully avoid this issue next time around, or at least minimize it). I try really hard, but I'm far from perfect. Most of my parenting-related shortcomings (that I can see) have to do with me being disorganized, staying up too late, not getting out of the house as much as would be ideal, not doing enough to establish and build friendships and connections that would enrich our lives, enjoying the odd break while Simon watches a video (or more than one), not doing nearly as much as I feel I should to ensure that we eat healthy foods, not keeping our living environment as nice as I'd like (I'm quite a slob, really), being lazy when it comes to holidays, procrastinating on this and that,. . . I do have a heavy load of parenting pit-falls and I'm sure there are others that I'm not able to see, yet, and probably a load of others that I may never identify or be able to see.

Waiting 6 hours was a totally extreme case for us. The only other really long incident took 1.5 hour or so -- Simon having fun playing at a stop light. If I had read more about CL'ers using a swoop and distract-type approach in that situation I would have felt more confident to try that and move on with our day. I'm also not opposed to helping to make the task more enjoyable for the child, so if I knew that I wouldn't have a lot of patience or time, I might plan to have something on hand that would appeal to Simon and help him get into his carseat, move on, or whatever. Tonight we wanted to go for a car ride and Simon wasn't keen to go, but I suggested making up a story for him in the car and he liked that idea, so he happily came along. I've found that once we have a few methods that work, we can use them over and over again in different contexts. I can also use whatever his newest thing seems to be (in this case, he likes when I make up stories to him about Dora and Boots, so I used that information to help with finding an agreeable solution about going for a car ride).

I'm hoping to have #2 at some point soonish and am eager to hear more about others who use CL with more than one child. I know there are people out there who are doing this and loving it. I'm eager to learn more from them and to learn more about how they are making it work for them, what their biggest challenges have been/continue to be, and how they have been resolved (or how they are having ongoing conflicts in relation to certain issues).

One thing: your situation is different from mine. I don't think that it's impossible that, in some circumstances, the most consensual way of going about things, of respecting everyone's interests and needs, might involve the use of some physical coercion. It may be that after a full consideration of what is known and what everyone's various needs seem to be at a given moment, and once a reasonable attempt at alternatives has been unsuccessful, it may make a lot more sense to respectfully as possible coerce a child into a seat. I think that often when it comes to this parents go from no coercion to mega-coercion, not thinking of trying less coercive approaches that are also on their "I want to avoid" lists. Maybe some less heavy use of coercion would work? Whatever the case, what I meant to convey in my last message was that I feel it's wrong to take such uses of physical coercion lightly and that they may be far more harmful than is usually assumed to be the case. If you arrived at a well-informed and earnest conclusion that physical coercion is the best of a series of unappetizing ways to proceed in a given situation (for everyone involved), and you've done this not haphazardly, but after exhausting a reasonable array of alternatives, and you strive to minimize similar outcomes in the future, . . . I see what you are doing as completely respectful.

When Simon was really young (still an infant), if he'd get upset in the car, we'd pull over as quickly as we could for me to comfort/nurse him. Sometimes me and dh would argue about this, with dh saying it just prolonged the upset and that it wasn't fair for him. We'd be 10 minutes from home and the ride would take a long time with a lot of stress for all of us (it would have been far less stressful if dh and I did a better job of working together when the going gets tough -- we're working at that). Comforting Simon would work while he was in my arms but then he'd be upset immediately when I tried to put him back into his seat. Perhaps at that point I was opposed to getting the ride over with for reasons that have more to do with my desire for consistency than about what made sense under the circumstances. Actually, thinking about it, I think I just couldn't bear to deliberately do something that I knew would cause him to suffer. Listening to him cry in the carseat tore me apart. I would happily -- well, not happily, but dutifully and agreeably, perhaps -- sit at the side of the road for hours but dh was not so happy about that. My attitude was that he understands what is going on but at that point Simon did not so he should just be patient. My approach wasn't all that respectful to dh and maybe it did just prolong the discomfort for Simon (even if it broke it up a bit). Should we have just kept going? That doesn't feel right to me either. It's such a hard situation. I still think we could have been more creative and avoided this conflict in ways that would be agreeable to all of us (mainly by planning things better ahead of time), but parenting has an unavoidable learning curve (which is ongoing) and second-guessing is second-guessing. Sometimes we don't put forth 150% effort. Sometimes we just don't want to do that. At least I don't. Sometimes 80% effort is what I can muster. Sometimes 50%. So we end up in these situations. Sometimes we give it our all and still end up in really difficult situations.

Since you don't feel good about physical coercion (doesn't it sound lovely when put that way?), do you think it would be helpful if people did more to share ideas about what worked for them in similar situations -- in which they were able to avoid the coercion and found agreement without waiting for a long time, or even what they did find to work after a long wait/process? I feel that I tried out the various approaches to the carseat issue that I had read (so long as they felt respectful to me), but no one mentioned just turning the car on and urgently saying that it's time to go, you need to get into your seat to be safe! That works so well for us. Maybe it would be helpful to have an anthology of things that have worked for key difficult situations. Kind of a menu to peruse when one is actually at Tim Horton's (or wherever) on a cold evening (or whenever) with a young child who has no desire to get into the carseat. Different headings might include: leaving the park, getting into a carseat, leaving a playdate, leaving the house, returning home, diaper changes, bathing, toothbrushing (how I wish I had a well-informed list of options early on!!!), running around at the mall, side-of-the-road attractions, meal times, sibling conflicts, sharing/not sharing, relatives and friends, strangers, leisure activities, doctor's visits, childcare, and so on. Maybe in the course of writing that it would become clear that the same options often work in different situations, so that one big list of things to try and things to be cautious about might suffice.

When I first wanted information about how to cope in difficult CL situations, I was getting some helpful feedback (but often only a minimal amount of it) but also a lot of well-intended advice that seemed to be full of inadvertant put-downs and assumptions that pissed me off. (So now I may be inadvertantly doing the same to others -- great!). I felt a lot of pressure to act as though CL is easy and to avoid speaking of how difficult it can sometimes be. There is also, and understandably, a HUGE emphasis on preventing conflicts, which is wonderful and helpful, but not so helpful in the moment of a conflict that needs to be resolved. Often when I'd want ideas about how to resolve a conflict that it seems can't be resolved, I'd get preventative advice or responses that said that there is a solution out there, keep looking. That was not very helpful to me, though then again, perhaps it has sunk in. I've had to live CL and sort through the conflicts to see that we can get through seemingly unsolveable conflicts. Maybe it's just been awhile since we haven't found consensus so I'm forgetting that sometimes it can't be found. I don't know.

I can see why the difficult aspects of CL are sometimes toned down or even hushed (at least this is what I've experienced). I'm guessing that there is a fear that people already think CL is difficult so attention to these issues would be off-putting, but I think avoiding these issues often backfires. When difficult CL situations are minimized, it can come off as an unrealistic and child-centric way of living, and one that is contraindicated by a desire to release one's bowels in a timely manner. I sometimes felt as though the message I was getting was not all that far off from this: "if you have a problem staying at the park for 4 hours or you dare think of expecting your child to leave the park because you are about to piss your pants, . . . tsk tsk, how selfish of you to have drank that coffee! Can't you look at your child and bask in the awesome creature that he is? He's such a miracle. Don't you see that!?!? Watch how he is experimenting and learning so much in every second. You don't want to take that away from him with now, do you? Wait it out, do a dance, and do a better job of planning next time. Oh, and by the way, you might try to buy a catheter if this is an ongoing issue for you; it is unjust to expect our children to meet our needs for us." CL is meant to help EVERYONE meet their needs and to live joyfully together, so this type of caricature is far from accurate or what CL'ers want to be conveying. Maybe my own impressions have been biased in some way. Probably. Maybe I was vulnerable when asking for advice and overly sensitive to the responses I received. Maybe my experience with seeing CL presented this way is rare and others are getting a more flattering and realistic picture of it. I am sensing a change in tone that is now more open to discuss the difficulties. If this isn't all something I'm dreaming up, perhaps this is because the number of parents accepting CL has increased giving the community a growing sense of security and less of a fear of being infiltrated by people who might have an agenda of showing that CL is unfeasible. Maybe it's also easy to put off certain concerns out of simple fatigue -- much like a vegetarian who has had enough of going over the same basic arguments again and again and just wants to spend some time with people who are dedicated vegetarians and do not wonder whether they might become anemic or suffer from B12 deficiency.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
When I first wanted information about how to cope in difficult CL situations, I was getting some helpful feedback (but often only a minimal amount of it) but also a lot of well-intended advice that seemed to be full of inadvertant put-downs and assumptions that pissed me off. (So now I may be inadvertantly doing the same to others -- great!). I felt a lot of pressure to act as though CL is easy and to avoid speaking of how difficult it can sometimes be. There is also, and understandably, a HUGE emphasis on preventing conflicts, which is wonderful and helpful, but not so helpful in the moment of a conflict that needs to be resolved. Often when I'd want ideas about how to resolve a conflict that it seems can't be resolved, I'd get preventative advice or responses that said that there is a solution out there, keep looking. That was not very helpful to me, though then again, perhaps it has sunk in. I've had to live CL and sort through the conflicts to see that we can get through seemingly unsolveable conflicts. Maybe it's just been awhile since we haven't found consensus so I'm forgetting that sometimes it can't be found. I don't know.

I can see why the difficult aspects of CL are sometimes toned down or even hushed (at least this is what I've experienced). I'm guessing that there is a fear that people already think CL is difficult so attention to these issues would be off-putting, but I think avoiding these issues often backfires. When difficult CL situations are minimized, it can come off as an unrealistic and child-centric way of living, and one that is contraindicated by a desire to release one's bowels in a timely manner or an otherwise healthy sense of self-respect as well as respect for all of the members in one's family. CL is meant to help everyone meet their needs, so this type of caricature is far from accurate or what CL'ers want to be conveying or living. Maybe my own impressions have been biased in some way and this is not how others who are thinking about whether to go down a more CL-inspired path are experiencing it. I am sensing a change in tone that is now more open to discuss the difficulties. If this isn't all something I'm hallucinating, perhaps this is because the number of parents accepting CL has increased giving the community a growing sense of security and less of a fear of being infiltrated by people who might have an agenda of showing that CL is unfeasible. Maybe it's also easy to put off certain concerns out of simple fatigue -- much like a vegetarian who has had enough of going over the same basic arguments again and again and just wants to spend some time with people who are dedicated vegetarians and do not wonder whether they might become anemic or suffer from B12 deficiency.

Wow Dal. I have read your posts in this thread with interest and I have to say, that you obviously take your job as a parent very seriously and work very hard at it.

I do think you hit the nail on the proverbial head though about why those of us who feel they could never do CL have their feelings confirmed both by discussions of the struggles of those practicing CL and the "easy" but seemingly overly child centric methods of those who find it a breeze .

I had, at one time, three children age 4 or under , and I never ever waited more than a minute to get anyone in a car seat. I parent by expectation and then move on. It would never have occurred to me to pull over 10 minutes from home to stop a crying child from crying. I guess I always think of "the long run". Is X going to be better than Y in the long run. And getting home and getting the suffering over with more quickly is the only mindset i was ever in.

Also, I do believe that after babyhood, there is value in a child knowing that she can survive temporary and minor unhappiness. And I don't want to give my children the idea that I don't beleive that they can survive it, by constantly trying to avoid any and all such minor unhappiness.

Let me give you an example. We were visiting my SIL in another state. We were all going in two cars to a museum. ONe of my dd's was with me and the other two were in another car with my dh. My middle dd was unhappy about not being with me.

My response was "Sorry,that is the way the seating worked out. I'll see you in 10 minutes." Now I didn't have to phyically coerce her into the car, but I know many who practice CL would say that my unwavering expectation that she would get into her car seat WAS coersive.

Certainly my SIL who tries to parent by CL was appalled. She started making suggestions for a change so that DD #2 would not be unhappy. All of these would either have involved moving around and re-positioning 5 other car seats, or making another child unhappy.

I told her (my SIL) "let's just go." Still she wanted to explain to my dd why we were not going to move the seats around. I told her again "let go, the last thing anyone needs is to wait any longer, which would mean that the lines at the museum would be longer."

My SIL was literally on the verge of hyperventilating the whole way, making suggestions for the ride back and me getting some special time with my dd at the museum.

As soon as we got to the museum, my dd came bounding out of the other car, talking excitedly about some ducks they saw on the way.

My SIL told my dd that she would move the car seats around so that DD could sit with us on the way back. My dd looked at her like she was crazy and said "No, it's fine. Don't worry." AND SHE WAS 4.

That being said I do see the value in trying CL with children. I do think that it give the child a feeling of respect that is quite valuable. BUt I think I would be literally exhausted trying to parent the way you do. I put my energy into running an organized household and into routines for eating and sleeping that, for my children, avoids many problems.

I do admire though your dedication to your parenting goals.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
My initial thought is that creativity works great WHEN Elijah is not overtired, but when he is overtired, I have found that all the creativity in the world simply leads to more melting down, more struggles, and has never finally led to cooperation, and I consider myself a creative and patient parent. When he is overtired, and I allow a situation to continue, I feel that I am not doing him any service as a parent.

This is my exact experience, too. When my son is tired or hungry, all bets are off and he goes into another place mentally. At these times, physical presence is not comforting, empathic conversation and problem-solving cause further loss of communication, and simply being present and witnessing, after a time, becomes cruel. My assessment as his parent, both intuitively and observationally, is that what he needs from me is leadership and love and patience -- in the form of helping him feel better by leading him to an activity or place that will soothe the hurt in his heart and help his body support him. He learns from me how to care for himself, how to interpret his body's signals when he gets that "crazy" overtired or overhungry feeling. Haven't you ever gotten those feelings?

Before you suggest that we should just prevent sleepiness and hunger, let me explain that getting tired can be avoided if we are in a stable, normal home situation, but if we are in a time of life transition or at an unusual place or event, it will sometimes happen despite our best preparations and intentions. Getting hungry is a common experience for my son because he does not like to eat. I have actually become *less* coercive recently by stopping working to prevent his hunger, and simply letting him experience it so that he can learn to respond to it, despite the absolute meltdown that occurs. That is the right decision, but even after months of allowing that, he still refuses to eat when his stomach is growling and will occasionally have a complete and utter meltdown. He wants to nurse instead, but nursing only provides temporary relief. I have tried every single suggestion I have heard on this issue, aside from the ones that I disagree with (like punishing), and what I know now is that sometimes he is just going to reach this far-gone place, no matter what.

Dal, there is much to respond to in your posts, and I do not currently have the time, but I will try to get to it. But for now you need to know that I am a mother who knows the perils of forcing, both from my childhood and from my experience parenting a child who has a medical condition that requires life-saving or health-saving intervention. The grief I have over the times I have had to hold my son down to get life-saving medication is keen, and it does not go away. I fully understand the emotional similarity between being coerced into his carseat or diaper and being made to endure a painful medical procedure. However, I find that your tone and suggestions still do not fully address the issues I face as a parent. And I also sense a bit of fear at doing things wrong or badly in your posts -- almost as if your positive experience with CL is, for you, a confirmation of you having done the "correct" things as a parent. I don't think parenting has such straightforward, all-encompassing answers, nor does it require us to know all the right answers. What it does require is compassion and the willingness to begin again. I have concerns about choices I have made, and reflect on them rather endlessly, in fact. I put myself in my son's shoes, in my own, I extend compassion to myself and him, I consider his feedback very seriously and am also learning to consider my own needs more seriously. We actually haven't had many struggles with diapers or carseats, but I still take exception to the certainty and insistence of your tone when warning against non-CL tactics. We've had great success with creativity, but I am a better parent when I don't measure my success by how well I can get us all to agree. I am a much more peaceful and patient parent when I acknowledge that sometimes we won't agree, especially when my son is not in a mental place, but in a primal place. At that point, having a rule in my head that success looks like a CL moment is very, very limiting and, in the past, has created more conflict for me and my son. It works better to simply extend compassion to both of us while meeting the needs it is possible to meet. Then processing it with him, and being willing to begin again and always learn.

I'm not sure that I've expressed what I really mean. It's something that's hard for me to put my finger on. I'll check back later again if I can get some time...


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I do believe that after babyhood, there is value in a child knowing that she can survive temporary and minor unhappiness. And I don't want to give my children the idea that I don't beleive that they can survive it, by constantly trying to avoid any and all such minor unhappiness.


I'll try to write more later. This isn't a fair picture of what I'm trying to do. If I'm exhausted and Simon wants me to play, I don't hop out of bed and run and play with him. If he wants me to read another story when I've really had enough of reading stories, I'll stop reading stories. Simon knows that he can survive moments of unhappiness, even fairly big ones. That happens in the course of life. I don't need to add unhappiness to his life to teach him that, which is not what I think you do, but you are suggesting that I'm trying to shield him from all forms of pain, which is not true -- though helping him to avoid unnecessary suffering makes sense to me, though I'm not going to drop all of my own needs in order to do this. We try to find solutions that work for everyone without sacrificing the needs of anyone.

I did say many times in my post that while I feel strongly against physical coercion and go to great lengths to avoid it, I realize I may be overstating the significance of this issue. I don't think that stuffing children into carseats against their will or similar acts of physical coercion should be mentioned nonchalantly, as though there is nothing further to discuss or think about. Is that use of coercion acceptable? Is it comparable to other horrible forms of forcible restraint or do we have reason to think it's far less harmful? Do we need to be concerned about potential trauma, a loss of dignity, or anything else if we use these methods? When can we say it's fair for practical concerns to outweigh a child's demand to not be coerced into a carseat? What else might be done that is less coercive but reaches the same goal? What justifies treating children differently in these cases than we would treat adults (if we think differential treatment is acceptable)? I find these questions worthwhile and important.

I don't know where readers are coming from. If you've given the issue a lot of thought and disagree with me, so be it (and I'd love to hear more about why). If you haven't given it much thought and have been thinking that there isn't really much to consider -- e.g., that it's just overzealous and overly sensitive people who care about these things -- maybe you would be interested to know that there do seem to be parallels between this action and others that are clearly harmful and traumatic. Often people do not say anything when they are strongly opposed to something that is fairly common because they do not want to offend anyone.

I don't feel I have all the answers. I have no idea what other parents should do. I'm not them and don't have their children or their insights or their temperaments and so on. My general approach is in line with humane education. "This is what I do, what I feel, and why. I feel strongly about this but I have no goal to force you to agree with my position. Do with what you hear from me as you please and as feels right to you."

Thank-you for the responses! They give me a lot to think about.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
This is my exact experience, too. When my son is tired or hungry, all bets are off and he goes into another place mentally. At these times, physical presence is not comforting, empathic conversation and problem-solving cause further loss of communication, and simply being present and witnessing, after a time, becomes cruel. My assessment as his parent, both intuitively and observationally, is that what he needs from me is leadership and love and patience -- in the form of helping him feel better by leading him to an activity or place that will soothe the hurt in his heart and help his body support him. He learns from me how to care for himself, how to interpret his body's signals when he gets that "crazy" overtired or overhungry feeling. Haven't you ever gotten those feelings?


CL is about meeting needs so you may be describing a case in which it is preferable to keep an upset child in a carseat for a few minutes rather than try to comfort them right then. When Simon is upset and out of touch with his emotions I also try to help him to experience these emotions in a healthy way and then move on. I haven't found that this requires the use of physical coercion. Moving on in the car when he was an infant -- in that one instance I discussed above -- might be an exception. I see an upset infant crying in a car as on a par with CIO. If I'm next to him, that might be akin to crying somewhat in arms since I can caress him, but it involved withholding breastfeeding from him. Since I feel that CIO is wrong, why wouldn't I think to pull over and tend to my son? It was almost always the case that doing so was helpful. We did pull over a lot and go on little walks or whatnot -- which we all enjoyed. We may find it more helpful to find other ways to work things out if/when we have more than one child, but this is what worked for all of us with one child. I'm not expecting to be spending a lot of time driving around with two children, but it will depend on how much they like the car -- just like I didn't do a lot of driving around when my sister was down from Australia because she gets carsick and didn't want to spend a lot of time in the car, even though I was keen to show her around. I wouldn't think of trying to force my mom or sister to drive around with me when they say that they don't want to do so (they both hate cars). There are more practical considerations with children, but what are we to make of these considerations? It seems to me that the practical considerations would have to be quite significant to outweigh the child's clear refusal to get into the carseat and the decision to stuff the child in there anyways, bent limbs to the contrary and all. It was only a couple of times that we wondered whether it would make more sense to just rush home while Simon remained upset in the car. That is the exception rather than the norm of what I've experienced, and not a big chunk of our parenting experience, to be sure. If we never pulled over for him, he would have spent A LOT of time CIO in the car.

I'm far sloppier with life than is ideal and Simon often ends up tired, hungry, and so on (in part) as a result of this. That's no good, but we've still had no trouble getting CL to work nearly all of the time. I attribute his having no tantrums to CL, and this even though I think he has quite a sensitive disposition, and that he is often tired, hungry, and we've moved twice in the last five months (which was quite hard on him). I KNOW without a doubt that if dh and I treated him in more authoritative ways he would be tantrumming, probably often. That would be hard on us as well as on Simon, and likewise it would be very hard on all of us if we resorted to physical coercion rather than waited things out when the going gets tough. What is often left out is that CL can make things a lot easier in many ways. Perhaps this is a big part of why I'm so freekin' fond of it. I don't quite know why I'm going on about this, but I really want to convey that I think it is being taken as far more difficult than is the case, and that there are ways to help avoid some of the more difficult challenges we've faced by thinking about potential challenging situations in advance.

Maybe CL is quite difficult with more than one child. Maybe it's really difficult for some people in some circumstances. I don't know. Maybe it's sometimes harder on children than it is easier for them, but that makes it seem like misapplied or misguided CL. I'm planning to do what I can to make it work, but of course my mind may change over time. My actual approach is probably better referred to as philosophical parenting. I'm continuously trying to learn more and to question my assumptions, see how things are working, consider what else I might be doing, ask whether I'm treating Simon with respect, whether I'm respecting my own needs and dh's, whether I'm neurotically compensating from what I didn't get as a child, whether that might be o.k., how is Simon feeling about what I'm doing, might he prefer something else, consider what I might learn from how others are doing things (including differnet cultures and so on), and yada yada. It's fun. I'm not about to become a mainstream parent, but my views are far from set in stone.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Hey Dal. As usual, there's lots of good stuff in what you say.

I do like your comparison to how it can SEEM like its not a big deal, when it stiill might be.

I can say for everything coercive I've done (not a lot), I can definitely see how I could have CL'ed it. Except for toothbrushing. (I was going to write a defense for how I did toothbrushing, but I don't want it to seem to be in favor of coersion and anti-cl, which I'm not at all!)
Perhaps that's all irrelevant at this point, anyways. He is now somewhat agreeable to toothbrushing now. It does take a little creativity, and different tactics, but we can get a pretty decent brushing now that he is agreeable to. And the odd time that he doesn't want them brushed is ok, it is going to be less harmful to let it go than it would be to make a big deal out of one time.

But I have to say, with the exception of toothbrushing (which I did think long and hard about), I've NEVER felt comfortable with any coersion that I did. I can just about always see clearly what would have made a difference, and ideas of how to deal better next time. AND it's always easy to see how negatively the whole incident was affected by coersion! I try to be consensual. And most of the time I do succeed (I stuffed ds in a carseat once, that I can remember. I was in a parking lot and getting increasingly nervous about the people walking by).
I guess I need to let go of my defensiveness about toothbrushing. Perhaps if I do that, I can get more out of thinking about CL.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Dal, reading your last post I find lots of ways that we are similar. I am a mom who either stopped the car when ds was a babe and crying or, more often, leaned over his carseat to nurse him while dh drove (waving to the truckers as we went, of course







). Your "philosophical" approach is similar to my own. I am mostly non-coercive, although I face challenges in the medical arena in particular, when it comes to life-saving or limb-saving medication. Our medical situation makes it particularly important that ds feels power and choice in other parts of his life.

So, after saying that, I am wondering what makes me feel uncomfortable when I read some of what you write? As I said before, we don't struggle much with carseats or diapers (or haven't in a while -- the memory has faded, maybe). We sometimes struggle with toothbrushing, and I did something coercive around that recently that I immediately regretted. But most of the time I find that if I let toothbrushing go one night, he's willing to do it again the next night. Over the past two years of facing more family stress than I knew how to handle, including but not limited to ds's medical condition, three moves, and near financial ruin, I have struggled with having patience and with anger as a parent (and as a person, actually). So maybe what makes me uncomfortable when I read what you're writing is that I don't feel much compassion from you for the possibility of not achieving "success" as you define it.

What's ironic is that our parenting probably looks pretty similar. I think I am just resisting a rule-bound approach to it, and finding that I look less like the parent I want to be when I take a rigid rule-bound approach. In our family, we try things based on principles we believe in like respect, communication, and love, and we work with whatever resources we have or whatever stresses we are experiencing. And we forgive ourselves (or try to!) when we flub up, and we try again and are always learning.

I think I am coming across as belittling your approach when I don't mean to. I am just saying that, even when my approach is very similar to yours, I don't feel quite supported by what you describe. I'm trying to put my finger on why.

Hope I'm not driving you off... I appreciate you taking the time to describe what's working for you and why.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Deva33mommy, I wonder about the extent to which how parents feel about coercive practices (theory aside) impacts their willingness to use them. It would seem that it matters a great deal. Maybe parents who have a tougher-type of temperament find them to be less of a big deal so are far more apt to resort to them when the going gets tough. Maybe their children are more likely to have the same make-up that they do and to deal better with this type of coercion than my son is likely to as well (it may be how he's been raised, but it certainly seems that he's very sensitive to this type of thing, just as I am). But a tough parent may also have a soft child, and maybe some soft parents have a child who might be tough. (Haven't given much thought to those terms, i.e. "hard" and "soft.") Just some thoughts... I do feel to my bones though whenever I've tried/resorted to coercive techniques. The stuffing in the car thing... I seriously felt like bashing my head against whatever hard object I could find and had to struggle against the urge to harm myself. It was intensely painful for me on a visceral level and of course it went against what I feel is best in terms of theory as well. Since Simon was over it so quickly (or so it seemed), if it weren't for that intense reaction that I had to go through (which lasted much, much longer), it would be easier for me to consider that approach as not all that big of a deal, and to take it as justified under less extreme circumstances.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
So maybe what makes me uncomfortable when I read what you're writing is that I don't feel much compassion from you for the possibility of not achieving "success" as you define it.
.........

And we forgive ourselves (or try to!) when we flub up, and we try again and are always learning.

.........

I think I am coming across as belittling your approach when I don't mean to. I am just saying that, even when my approach is very similar to yours, I don't feel quite supported by what you describe. I'm trying to put my finger on why.

Hope I'm not driving you off... I appreciate you taking the time to describe what's working for you and why.

Hi! I'm not at all put off by what you've written. I appreciate that you've taken the time to think about what bothered you about my message. CL'ers do support the use of coercion for medical and limb-saving reasons!!! I've often heard statements like: "Well... I can safely assume that s/he is not suicidal (and doesn't want to lose limbs could easily be added as well as a given), and that is more than enough reason to not only use coercion, but to think that doing so would be WRONG, and not what the child genuinely wants (if the child could see the full picture)." So in those cases the goal might still be to do without coercion, but realistically, it might come out in real life (unless one's child is particularly able to accept pain for long-term gain, which is a hard concept for children to get), the practice would involve doing a lot of research and questioning of medical interventions and standard procedures and aiming to find medical help/do what needs to be done with the minimal amount of coercion necessary.

One thing that I need to keep in mind (which reminds me of middle class white feminists who often seem to assume that all other women are in the same position they are in): In many ways (certainly not all) am in an ideal situation in which to CL (and more generally, to parent). Me and dh are both at home. I've always loathed cleaning and don't tend to spend a lot of time cooking or on things like that, so it's easy to let those things slide (dh does most of the laundry and cleaning, which makes up for his doing less of the parenting, which is a balance that works well for both of us). Cleaning and cooking is certainly compatible with CL, sometimes it even makes it go better, but for me, not caring much about these things and having low standards in relation to them helps to keep my levels of stress and daily to-do list low. Same with programs and whatnot. I don't feel inclined to sign Simon up for a load of programs. We might enjoy them, but they'd also add stress to our lives so for now, we usually limit ourselves to drop-in type programs so that we can go when we want rather than feel compelled to go just because it's Thursday at 9:30AM and that is when our music class is whether we feel like going to it or not. I also LOVE my work and feel refueled by that and am able to stay up late to work on it since dh watches Simon for the first part of his day. We probably live at or below the poverty line, but it certainly doesn't feel like it. We are able to rest on the option of resorting to dental help if need be, which helps us back off in regards to Simon's teeth. We've also moved to Vancouver, BC, primarily for lifestyle reasons. There is a tonne for us to do here and the weather is pretty good year round for going on outings and whatnot, especially if one doesn't mind getting wet. We're also in a townhouse now (or first "house"-like living arrangement) and so far as we can tell, it is really well sound-proofed so we (or just Simon) can be loud without worrying about upsetting neighbours. Dh also does a lot of shopping, which helps. He's also onboard, though I wish he were more fervent about things; he often seems to just follow along though it's becoming more and more clear that he does feel strongly about CL and that he agrees with it (for the most part). There are a lot of little (and not so little) issues like this which all help to make CL work so well in my family. I also find that I'm really patient when it comes to Simon (this may be a response to the utter lack of patience I received as a child, who knows). This helps when we're in the midst of one of the few conflicts that do take a long time to resolve. I seldom have a genuine need to get going and when I do, Simon has seemed to get it.

I think I'm pretty good at forgiving myself too, which may, in my case, have me just drop whatever went wrong and learn from that experience rather than dwell on it, so that over time it comes to seem more and more as though everything (more or less) has been peachy-keen.

Gotta go!


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
CL'ers do support the use of coercion for medical and limb-saving reasons!!!

I understand this perfectly, and am not asking about it -- both times that I mentioned our medical issues I was using it as a way to express how well I understand the dangers and difficulties of coercing a child, and how important it is to me to prevent that coercion as much as possible in regular life. My son has too much of it already in his medical experiences, despite my valiant efforts, although my efforts have helped some. And yet, even though the issue is so important and relevant for me, I still find that your message is not sitting right. Because even parents who haven't had very stressful situations -- even parents in what you describe as a CL-friendly setup -- will struggle with things like patience and anger. This is true, even if it seems hard to understand, and even if you yourself haven't faced it. So "just do it" parenting doesn't work in those situations. In order for your approach to sound whole to me, I think it needs to include a way to address imperfection, not just point out why imperfection is not ideal. Concrete ways to provide compassion and support to myself, and thus my child, in the midst of parenting difficulties -- these are things that have supported and inspired me to find my center again in difficult moments. I think it is vital to talk about these parenting difficulties with respect and hope in the same breath that we talk about our aspirations/goals as parents.

And I say this during a time in which I am doing alright as a parent. Like I said, if you saw me parent recently you'd probably wonder what the differences between us are, and why I am making such a big deal about this. But if you saw me during some times over the past year that were not as good as now (or heck, if you saw me tomorrow, or tonight, or any time that I just don't act like I might want to), then what would you say to me? From your posts, it seems like you might admonish me to get back in line, even if you do it gently. This is not, for me, an effective technique, and I am trying to get out of the habit of using it on myself because of its low success rate. What works better is gentle loving attention to myself, my underlying needs, and the child inside of me. When I feel that from myself or from another adult, I immediately am able to be more free, comfortable, gentle, and attentive with my child, even in the midst of difficulty.

I am getting specific on this point in part because I know there are mamas and papas reading this who are struggling, and they need to know that there is a way to state goals in a way that deeply, compassionately, and without accusation acknowledges where we are now -- even if it is very far from where we want to be. This is so important for growth, and so important for those reading who aspire to do the things you are describing (or aspire to their own goals, whatever they may be.) It is also important for our children to see.

I think I have put my finger on it this time -- at least in my own head. I hope I've expressed it aptly enough.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
But if you saw me during some times over the past year that were not as good as now (or heck, if you saw me tomorrow, or tonight, or any time that I just don't act like I might want to), then what would you say to me? From your posts, it seems like you might admonish me to get back in line, even if you do it gently.

Just gotta say, that from what I know of Dal, she wouldn't admonish (at least not out loud)







I think that giving suggestions and examples of things that help in HER life would be more her style.
But I do understand what you are saying. I think its why I will say that I try to make things consensual as much as I can, vs. saying that I'm CL.
I can succeed at the former. I know me, and I am definitely not in a place to succeed in the latter. I know that CL isn't about perfection, but for some reason I am not wild about having ideals that *I* can never obtain. (though, on the other side, it is good to strive to be better, we all know that)

*Dal* you know I love these philosophical discussions. I'm so lucky in some ways, and so unlucky in others. I'm lucky in that I can see my wrong actions as horribly wrong (if they are) and not feel like *I* am bad. (like circ)
I'm unlucky in that, I have no instincts. Well, I do have some. But...you know, everything that I'm doing right is the result of reading and thinking through stuff obsessively.
I am just about positive that I would have punished ds (probably even spanked) if not for reading so many GD books (of course, when I read the first one, it really really spoke to me, so I wasn't a hard sell. lol). I can tell sometimes, by my gut reaction (which rarely really happens), that if I didn't intellectually KNOW that I am opposed to punishment, that I would do it.
Dp is so different than I am. He has instincts (and was raised by gd parents), and I sincerely doubt that he would ever have done much punishing at all, even if I had never mentioned any books to him.

Anyways, that blabbering did have a point. What you said about how a parent FEELS about coercing, I think is right. There have been the rare times when I FELT wrong about coercing. But more often it seems wrong only in an intellectual way. In that, I realized that I am NOT respecting ds's desires (which is important to me).

I also do think that upbringing has something to do with it. My mom was mostly respectful of us. We stayed at my grandma's house most of the time, and she was VERY respectful and caring too. But I know from talking with my mom that there were times that we were coerced for things like diaper changes, getting in carseats, etc. I don't remember any of that from my mom (I remember some sucky things about my dad though). Perhaps if I had negative memories about being coerced, my viewpoint would be radically different.

I do have an obsession with honesty, and I don't know exactly where that comes from. Perhaps because I'm a really bad liar. Maybe because my dad used to be a really good liar. So if I have two options (which would never happen in reality, but just pretend) and those are to either coerce or "embellish the truth" to make an activity seem better than it really is, I would coerce. But like I said, there are never just two options. I do pretty well with being honest and being mostly consensual. (well, if I overlook the last two weeks when I've been sick and not at the top of my game)


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Just wanted to say thank you again to ALL of you and your varying perspectives. Just when I think this thread has been great and really helpful, you guys take it to a new level. I am reflecting so much based on what I am reading here.

I'm terrible about quoting and responding to specific ideas but a few things I remember that I wanted to comment on.

Dal you asked for examples of creative ways to deal with getting consent when our kids are resisting (like leaving the park). One thing that has worked *incredibly* well for us is singing. I learned this through our Waldorf parent-tot group. When I want to leave the park and she doesn't...I start walking and singing "We're following the leader, the leader, the leader...." Almost every time she stops what she's doing and runs after me singing.









maya...your post about your experiences of meeting the needs of multiple young children really struck a cord with me. I think part of why I am struggling is because I was so child-centered with DD....and then DS was born and our world shifted SO drastically. Suddenly I couldn't figure out for the life of me (and I was trying SO hard) how to meet my infant's needs and my toddler's needs without completely making myself crazy and/or sick.









It's getting easier but I still feel like I am constantly juggling everyone's needs and not quite meeting anyone's.

DS does not like the car. He's ok for a bit but once he decides he's done with his carseat...he's DONE. If he was my only, I'd stay home more. But he's not. DD is super-social and needs to get out to the park, playground, dance class, playdates etc. I also have a hard time being home alone (with my children) all day and am prone to depression so there are times where I just have decided that it is better for the family unit for us to go out and DS has cried in the car more than I care to admit.

There have been times where I pulled over to comfort and nurse him...only to have DD start crying because she's sad that he's sad and now she wants to nurse too. And when I put DS back in his carseat to nurse/comfort DD...he starts screaming again.







:

One thing I do know is that if I let myself get too obsessed with making sure that both DS and DD's needs are met at all times, the cost will be my own health and sanity....which, I believe, ultimately hurts my kids more than coercing them into the car/stroller/diaper changes or leaving somewhere when they don't want to.

Lastly....and then I need to take a break and hang out with my DH (oh yeah....let's not forget about *HIS* needs!







) I just wanted to say that I am listenting to what you are saying Dal. I found myself very resistent to your earlier posts but I am softening and listening and reflecting. I don't think you are going to convert me to CL (not that I think that's your goal) but I'm listening...and learning and I appreciate your perspective.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

mbravebird,

Do I hear you saying you don't like the "right/wrong" paradigm of "succeeding or failing" to measure up against an expectation?

Are you wanting to trust that one is not being judged when one is unable to find a consensual solution?

Do you need reassurance that there are situations where others don't find mutually agreeable solutions?

Do I understand that you are concerned that there are different "starting points" or situations where some people are _not_ going to find a creative and agreeable solution at times, and that they are not "less than" those who are more experienced (or have more emotional, physical resources) at creating a solution which doesn't involve coercion?

Does your self-care and self-awareness recognize that judgement type paradigms are hurtful to your Self and are avoidant of "philosophy" which seems to embrace this?

Is it hurtful to hear when someone describes what one 'could do instead', when in reality it IS and WAS a struggle? Does it feel like it denies your own experience and knowing?

Are you wanting to hear *how* to move through those feelings of imbued "guilt" which are familiar (and painful) from childhood?

Do you feel that only "perfection" seems "good enough" when one talks about consensual solutions? Does "no coercion" feel like a "rule" that must not be broken... or else?

Pat


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Nevermind for now. I want to think over this.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Pat,
I need time to reply to your post -- I will have alone time perhaps tonight. Thank you for your post. Thank you.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Pat,
I'm afraid I'm not in a great space for answering tonight (tired, headache, late), but I really want to try.

Quote:



Do I hear you saying you don't like the "right/wrong" paradigm of "succeeding or failing" to measure up against an expectation?


 Yes.

Quote:



Are you wanting to trust that one is not being judged when one is unable to find a consensual solution?


 Yes. Also, I don't want to participate in judging myself, and I am sensitive to a paradigm that might encourage that. I need my learning, whether around goals of non-coercion or other things, to be gentle enough that I can feel the feelings associated with _not_ accomplishing those goals -- instead of clamping down and getting rigid and insistent with myself. It's true that other people can take on the voice of judgement for me, and I don't like that, but I am also aware that a very potent voice comes from inside me.

Quote:



Do you need reassurance that there are situations where others don't find mutually agreeable solutions?


 Perhaps. This thread has helped with that some. It's not a strong need.

Quote:



Do I understand that you are concerned that there are different "starting points" or situations where some people are _not_ going to find a creative and agreeable solution at times, and that they are not "less than" those who are more experienced (or have more emotional, physical resources) at creating a solution which doesn't involve coercion?


 Yes.

Quote:



Does your self-care and self-awareness recognize that judgement type paradigms are hurtful to your Self and are avoidant of "philosophy" which seems to embrace this?


 Yes.

Quote:



Is it hurtful to hear when someone describes what one 'could do instead', when in reality it IS and WAS a struggle? Does it feel like it denies your own experience and knowing?


 Yes. This question is what reduced me to absolute tears last night, and led me to some really important feelings that I hadn't been aware of in a very long time. I immediately thought of our hospital experiences when I read this, and at first I was confused because I think of myself as having done some major acclimation to the fact that we have these coercive hospital experiences. But I found myself thinking about how awful it feels to emerge from one of those hospital visits, especially the early ones that were so hard, and feel like I am just a puddle on the floor that needs mopping up, I am just destroyed by what happened to my son, and yet no one is there to help me. The sentence that kept coming to my head was "who picks me up?" I feel like a wet rag at those times, absolutely useless and powerless and at a loss. And noone knows, and I can't fix it, and it's awful. The first hospital visit we had was like rape. It was awful. And I let it happen, he was in my arms the whole time, they told me it was what needed to happen, and they were wrong. I finally asked them if they would let us go home without treatment -- they had spent six hours trying to access a vein at that point, holding him down violently, him struggling violently all the while screaming, screaming, screaming -- and they said yes. They said yes!! I realized that I was the one who got to decide if we would treat him, not them. I didn't know enough about bleeds then (he has hemophilia) to know what was an emergency or not, but this turned out not to be an emergency. It was touch and go, and without treatment we had to keep an eye on nerve damage and loss of circulation, and manage his pain, but that turned out to be better than the trauma of trying to get treatment when they couldn't find a vein. He was 14 months old. Just recently, we were back in the same ER for a treatment after a head bump he had. He is now 2 1/2. They took us to the same room they had used for treatment that awful day over a year before, and he remembered it. He began to cry and refused to go in, began to get hysterical. I asked if we could get another room. They took us to the room right next door, and he was immediately fine. Treatment is easier now -- his veins have gotten bigger and easier to access. Also, as soon as he seemed capable I put the process of offering his arm in his hands -- and so far he has always offered his arm. The nurses still have to hold his arm to stabilize it, otherwise he will jerk his arm away in response to the pain, and hurt himself further. We can't use numbing cream because it makes his veins too hard to get (although we're going to try it again soon.) We take him to craniosacral therapy regularly, and have worked there on the emotional issues around coercion, loss of control, and loss of power. It was scary for me, after all that progress it looks like we've made, to see how well he remembered the first hospital visit, the awful rape-like coercion, and the fear. And that was not the last coercive treatment, even though they are better now. There was another one, where he was too young to give his arm, where they pinned him down to make sure they could get the vein (this was a joint bleed, a true emergency, and one where time matters) and he looked at me from under their arms and begged me to make them stop. When I could only offer him empathy, he turned to his father, sobbing and begging, stop stop stop stop stop I don't want it I don't want it please stop it. I have been abused and I know that feeling, and I let it happen to my child. I felt like I had no choice.

Last night I got in touch with my sense of helplessness, and my sense of wanting to give it all back, to not have those experiences in our past or in our future. To take away the illness. To take away all the other stresses of the year. To not have to fail so badly, to have hurt him so badly when all I want to do in life is keep him safe. To be Ok again. But it's impossible. And I feel like I have no one to pick me up, and I can't bear to hear that I'm not doing another thing well when it's already been so hard, and this issue is already so important to me. Last night after I read your post and had this intense reaction I went to our room where he was sleeping and whispered to him how much I loved him, how much grief I felt that he was and is hurt when all I want to do is to take care of him. I whispered to him that he is safe, that I love him. I had a sense that what I can offer to him is a place for him to feel the feelings he has around the experiences of coercion he has had, to feel those feelings so that he does not have to turn his back on himself.

I think a part of me can't stand to not be successful at non-coercion again. I try so hard to give him power in other parts of his life, and if I'm not doing well enough at that in addition to all the crap we've already gone through, well than hell, what am I worth?

And part of me is just a slightly different style/instinct, that most of the time looks remarkably non-coercive when I'm doing well. And part of me is still very stressed out after a difficult year, and very worn down, and very low on resources, and needing to do what I am good at, which is being an empathic, respectful mama duck type. I'm at my best when I do that, and it is not something to sneeze at, having a mama who is feeling confident and relaxed. When I am feeling that way we are all happier. Every time I try to move to complete non-coercion, we go unstable again. It just hasn't seemed worth it. There's a lot to be said for giving us stability right now.

I don't feel quite finished, but there's a start.

Quote:



Are you wanting to hear *how* to move through those feelings of imbued "guilt" which are familiar (and painful) from childhood?


 I am not sure what exactly you mean by guilt. I mean, I know guilt, but I'm not clear what you mean in this question. In general, as I work to encounter my parenting issues, I return a lot to that thread that you bumped today, the end of the "help me understand" thread. Sledg's description of her experience has been so helpful for me as I lead myself through the more difficult parts of parenting. I am in therapy, too, with an excellent therapist who puts me in touch with my own nurturing and protective adult self, so that I can house the child in me who was hurt, and help her take off her coping masks and sit in safety. And I always want to hear how others find their way through things like this; I think it really helps to share that kind of work with one another. And I think I do long for this kind of work and talk to be present whenever we talk about parenting goals.

Quote:



Do you feel that only "perfection" seems "good enough" when one talks about consensual solutions? Does "no coercion" feel like a "rule" that must not be broken... or else?


 Yes.

Pat, thank you for wanting to hear and understand me. It means so much to me that you invested the effort it must have taken to understand so well and check your understanding with me. Thank you. It was a real gift to get in touch with those feelings last night, and to make them available to me as I continue to do my work as a parent and a person. I really, really appreciate it.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have said this before on this forum and I will say it again.

It is beyond offensive to me to hear the act of placing a toddler in a carseat or, by extension, removing a screaming child from a restaurant (I have done thisagainst my DD's will when she was fighting me and struggling) compared to sexual abuse and rape.

Beyond, beyond offensive.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

mbravebird ~







I'm so glad you were able to express your feelings. I teared up just reading your post.









Quote:

I have said this before on this forum and I will say it again.

It is beyond offensive to me to hear the act of placing a toddler in a carseat or, by extension, removing a screaming child from a restaurant (I have done thisagainst my DD's will when she was fighting me and struggling) compared to sexual abuse and rape.

Beyond, beyond offensive.

That was said on this thread?







I guess I totally missed it. I get so little computer time I'm always skimming posts.







Darn. I thought everyone was being SO respectful on this thread.

I understand why the comparision is made by people who are completely oposed to doing *anything* against a child's will but I do agree that it is hurtful and offensive.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I have said this before on this forum and I will say it again.

It is beyond offensive to me to hear the act of placing a toddler in a carseat or, by extension, removing a screaming child from a restaurant (I have done thisagainst my DD's will when she was fighting me and struggling) compared to sexual abuse and rape.

Beyond, beyond offensive.

WTF? Where was that? Do people here really think that or is just used as a comparison? The former would give me reason to NEVER post in the forum again and the later would just be totally ridiculous and offensive...and still make me not ever want to post here


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

425lisamarie I don't recall seeing that specific comparison made.
I sincerely doubt that any person here honestly sees the two as being the related. And even *if* someone did, most don't, and I would urge you to not "cut off your nose to spite your face." There are a lot of wonderful things to learn here, from getting concrete ideas on discipline to discussing theories and philosophies of discipline.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
This is my exact experience, too. When my son is tired or hungry, all bets are off and he goes into another place mentally. At these times, physical presence is not comforting, empathic conversation and problem-solving cause further loss of communication, and simply being present and witnessing, after a time, becomes cruel. My assessment as his parent, both intuitively and observationally, is that what he needs from me is leadership and love and patience -- in the form of helping him feel better by leading him to an activity or place that will soothe the hurt in his heart and help his body support him. He learns from me how to care for himself, how to interpret his body's signals when he gets that "crazy" overtired or overhungry feeling. Haven't you ever gotten those feelings?

I've been thinking a lot about WHY I'm not CL. Why I'd rather say that I try to make as many situations as possible consensual, instead.
I think it has to do with "ideal" vs. "best solution one can come up with in the moment."
Putting a shirt over ds's head while he is telling me he doesn't want it on (not crying about it, just really would prefer me to not put it on), when he is super tired and all he really WANTS is to go to bed, is not ideal. But sometimes, its the best I can do in the moment, and its the best for him. After its on, we can go to bed and nurse (which is what he really wants in the end), and he won't get cold during the night. I'm sure there are a myriad of ways that I *could have* handled that (hypothetical) situation in a consensual manner. But if I had tried to be non-coercive, it could have prolonged the unhappiness (because what he really wanted was the end result of nursing and going to sleep, so the faster his shirt gets on, the faster we get to that, and the faster he's happy.) So my choices at that moment are 1. try to convince him to choose to do something that he doesn't want to do or 2. just do it and move on to what he really wants.
So perhaps that's it. Even if I believe that being consensual is ideal, I also believe that sometimes the best I can do in the moment involves coersion.

I've been thinking about TCS and how it relates to CL. For some reason, TCS is easier for me to consider being.
Perhaps it is easier for me to think of coersion as interfering with learning (which I think it does) than to think about coersion being inherently wrong.
I read about TCS once that before using coersion, one should consider the harmful effects of coersion. I can buy that, that coersion can be (is?) harmful. It says that coersion is not always wrong, but that it is always harmful on some level (I believe that's what it says).
It is easier for me to think of it this way, and translate that into my life.
(I know I'm not getting to the heart of what tcs is)


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Becky...I really can relate to your example and have a similar philosophy. My DH OTOH has a hard time shifting strategies and he often gets locked in negotiations with DD even when she is very tired and it makes me







:

I really think that despite our best intentions to keep our children well fed and rested...there are times when I feel I have to take over and help my DD to help herself because she just simply doesn't know what she wants/needs or can't understand the steps needed to get from where we are to what she needs.

I haven't read TCC yet. Heard bits and pieces about it on this fourm. Sounds like it's worthwhile to read.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
425lisamarie I don't recall seeing that specific comparison made.
I sincerely doubt that any person here honestly sees the two as being the related. And even *if* someone did, most don't, and I would urge you to not "cut off your nose to spite your face." There are a lot of wonderful things to learn here, from getting concrete ideas on discipline to discussing theories and philosophies of discipline.









I've been thinking a lot about WHY I'm not CL. Why I'd rather say that I try to make as many situations as possible consensual, instead.
I think it has to do with "ideal" vs. "best solution one can come up with in the moment."
Putting a shirt over ds's head while he is telling me he doesn't want it on (not crying about it, just really would prefer me to not put it on), when he is super tired and all he really WANTS is to go to bed, is not ideal. But sometimes, its the best I can do in the moment, and its the best for him. After its on, we can go to bed and nurse (which is what he really wants in the end), and he won't get cold during the night. I'm sure there are a myriad of ways that I *could have* handled that (hypothetical) situation in a consensual manner. But if I had tried to be non-coercive, it could have prolonged the unhappiness (because what he really wanted was the end result of nursing and going to sleep, so the faster his shirt gets on, the faster we get to that, and the faster he's happy.) So my choices at that moment are 1. try to convince him to choose to do something that he doesn't want to do or 2. just do it and move on to what he really wants.
So perhaps that's it. Even if I believe that being consensual is ideal, I also believe that sometimes the best I can do in the moment involves coersion.

I've been thinking about TCS and how it relates to CL. For some reason, TCS is easier for me to consider being.
Perhaps it is easier for me to think of coersion as interfering with learning (which I think it does) than to think about coersion being inherently wrong.
I read about TCS once that before using coersion, one should consider the harmful effects of coersion. I can buy that, that coersion can be (is?) harmful. It says that coersion is not always wrong, but that it is always harmful on some level (I believe that's what it says).
It is easier for me to think of it this way, and translate that into my life.
(I know I'm not getting to the heart of what tcs is)

Yeah I hear you...i don't remember that skimming through this thread, but it certainly would not be any good if it was posted...but anyhow, I just seem to think I don't really fit into this forum because i just cannot analyze every action, word, thought of my kids and I.

I know this is going to sound bad (and I don't exactly know how to word it), but I honestly don't think I could be a better mom/have better kids/have a better relationship with DH, etc. I am so incredibly at peace with my life and the way I mother my children! I have a lot of respect for people here, but for me personally I don't really have alot to say about some things people talk to such great lengths about. ANd yes, I know it sounds like I am saying I htink I'm close to perfect, but I don't...I just feel like I don't really have a need to analyze my life all too much because we are all so happy, my kids are super bright, loving, affectionate, etc.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Lisa ~ SO happy you are in a really great place with your life! I'm inching my way along this path. Hoping to get to that place!









Oh but even when I do, I'll proably still need to







about it and reflect on everything. It's just my nature!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama* 
Lisa ~ SO happy you are in a really great place with your life! I'm inching my way along this path. Hoping to get to that place!









Oh but even when I do, I'll proably still need to







about it and reflect on everything. It's just my nature!









Oh I totally knwo what you mean, I like the company of like minded mamas a lot! I just sometimes read a bit here and it starts making me think about everything to the point where life seems too difficult! SUddenly something about my kids that used to be so easy suddenly becomes me thinking all day about one little thing I said and how my son might be thinkiing about it, and on and on LOL! Not to make light of anyone's thoughts here at all. I guess I just am really in that happy a place in my life and my surroundings, and I feel so great about it! I really like this board, but sometimes I feel either blank (because maybe I don't have all these deep thought or analysis), or just like maybe I really am not that great a mom that I don't care enough to sit back and reflect on my every word. I have never really struggled wtih anger, or having a hard time dealing with my children...which I feel great about, but sometimes I think maybe it is belittling to mamas who struggle with things. It's like I don't really have much to say, because it's "so easy for me."

I know that things defintately got rocky for a little while after DD was born, nursing two, battling depression (for a short bit with raging hormones), 2 out of state moves (which brought us back and forth from seattle to texas in a matter of 2 months). Blah, blah...but now I'm home in (what's to me) the most beautiful place on earth, I've got a husband with a great job, my 2.5 year old gives me kisses and hugs everyday, my 6 month old is starting to babble....

I think I just reached that place where I feel like things couldn't be any better *sigh*


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

As I see things, being physically restrained (and physically forced to do something as well) is disempowering and has definite parallels to rape
This is the comparison I was referring to.

I don't usually "call people out" in quotes, but my feelings still stand, and I want to be clear about them.

It is not okay to compare putting a child into a carseat to rape.

Quote:

As she argues in that book, adults often recreate similar scenarios (don't take this too literally!) to what was done to them as children and justify them via faith in a poisonous pedagogy. They are ostensibly acting for the child's own good, because so doing is inevitable, or some other such excuse even though you'd think they ought to see the parallels that are right before their eyes. Until the adult fully deals with and recognizes the past trauma for what it truly was, s/he is apt to repeat variations of past cycles of abuse.
I also am not keen on any implication that parents who occasionally resort to physical coercion must be repeating a poisonous cycle of abuse.

I do not consider this a respectful way of speaking about this topic.

FTR, I haven't physically coerced my child into anything but an occasional pick-up-and-carry removal (when she was freaking out in a public place where it would have been disrespectful to remain, and refused to leave) in quite a long time. Coercion is the absolute very last tool in my toolbox, reached for unwillingly and with great slowness. But it is in the toolbox, with this particular spirited, feisty, gloriously independent toddler. And I understand why it will be in the toolbox--nay, must be--for many parents.

Can we expect a single working mom to wait six hours for her child to get in the carseat? If not, then does equating an occasional need to place a child in the carseat to RAPE seem the right thing to do?


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
This is the comparison I was referring to.

I don't usually "call people out" in quotes, but my feelings still stand, and I want to be clear about them.

It is not okay to compare putting a child into a carseat to rape.

I also am not keen on any implication that parents who occasionally resort to physical coercion must be repeating a poisonous cycle of abuse.

I do not consider this a respectful way of speaking about this topic.

FTR, I haven't physically coerced my child into anything but an occasional pick-up-and-carry removal (when she was freaking out in a public place where it would have been disrespectful to remain, and refused to leave) in quite a long time. Coercion is the absolute very last tool in my toolbox, reached for unwillingly and with great slowness. But it is in the toolbox, with this particular spirited, feisty, gloriously independent toddler. And I understand why it will be in the toolbox--nay, must be--for many parents.

Can we expect a single working mom to wait six hours for her child to get in the carseat? If not, then does equating an occasional need to place a child in the carseat to RAPE seem the right thing to do?

this just really makes me angry, and I won't even get into it. Disrespectful and offensive to say the least


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Pat,
I'm afraid I'm not in a great space for answering tonight (tired, headache, late), but I really want to try.

Quote:
Do I hear you saying you don't like the "right/wrong" paradigm of "succeeding or failing" to measure up against an expectation?
Yes.

Consensual Living has no right/wrong paradigm, nor "success or failure" measurement of one's self, or others. I experienced this type of judgment within the TCS philosophy.

"TCS also teaches that coercing one's children is morally *wrong.*" http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c.../wrong?from=15
See "Another Take on TCS", about 3/4 down the page by Sarah Fitz-Claridge.

"When there is a failure to find a common preference, self-sacrifice will occur, but the additional flexibility that the TCS style makes available, and the fact that the children and parents are solving common problems and reaching common solutions, means that this is the exception." http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c...h/node/failure See "Putting Education First" about 3/4 down the page by Sarah Fitz-Claridge

These are the largest differences between TCS and Consensual Living.

Quote:
Are you wanting to trust that one is not being judged when one is unable to find a consensual solution?
Yes. Also, I don't want to participate in judging myself, and I am sensitive to a paradigm that might encourage that. I need my learning, whether around goals of non-coercion or other things, to be gentle enough that I can feel the feelings associated with _not_ accomplishing those goals -- instead of clamping down and getting rigid and insistent with myself. It's true that other people can take on the voice of judgement for me, and I don't like that, but I am also aware that a very potent voice comes from inside me.

I agree that external judgment has no value to a healthy relationship, especially a learning one. I am certainly learning all the time and am gentle with myself in that process. My own self-talk has the most power over my experience of other's judgment of me. I can grant their judgment power, or value my own process of learning and growing without self-judgment.

Quote:
Do you need reassurance that there are situations where others don't find mutually agreeable solutions?
Perhaps. This thread has helped with that some. It's not a strong need.

Does it feel threatening to hear others reflectively discover potential mutually agreeable solutions after the fact that one "could have done"? Does the seeking of alternatives feel like "second guessing"?

Quote:
Do I understand that you are concerned that there are different "starting points" or situations where some people are _not_ going to find a creative and agreeable solution at times, and that they are not "less than" those who are more experienced (or have more emotional, physical resources) at creating a solution which doesn't involve coercion?
Yes.

Does a more experienced discussion of "could have tried" or "could try next time" feel dismissive of the different "starting points", or is this a necessary process to learning? Is it that others than oneself are doing the reflective "evaluation" that feels judgmental? In what other process could one gain the benefit of other's experience that doesn't feel shaming? Is there an aspect of "could have" that feels like "should have"? Is that being said or is that internal self-talk?

This process of more heads solving for the 'next time' helps me to grow and learn. I don't hear solutions as "shoulds", it is just "coulds" for next time.

Quote:
Does your self-care and self-awareness recognize that judgement type paradigms are hurtful to your Self and are avoidant of "philosophy" which seems to embrace this?
Yes.

This is my experience also, from wayyyyy back in childhood. It is precisely the reason that I choose to interact with ds without judgment of his behavior, and *with* engagement of his feelings and needs instead. The process of Consensual Living is focused upon feelings and underlying needs, not judgment of behaviors, neither of the child nor the parent.

Quote:
Is it hurtful to hear when someone describes what one 'could do instead', when in reality it IS and WAS a struggle? Does it feel like it denies your own experience and knowing?
Yes.

I want to thank you for your open and earnest sharing of your horribly painful experiences in the hospital. I could feel your pain in the descriptions of your concern and helplessness in the face of the forceful medical professionals. I was a critical care nurse for 18 years, so I know all too well how forceful the medical myopia is. The needs of the individual, nonetheless the consent of children, is often overlooked, or ignored. I felt terrorized to imagine being in your position. I don't know the answer to "Who picks me up?", except that I observe that you _have_ found that strength of Self to do so for yourSelf. I understand that there are no reserves to defend against anyone questioning or seeming to doubt the reality and struggle of your experience. I hear that you experienced the "medical treatment" like a rape; the extensive, systematic and unrelenting aspect of imposing on a person against their will does seem violating. I am sorry that your participation causes you such pain. I don't see any utility to blame. There is no "fault", nor intent to harm, neither by the medical people, nor by your "letting".

I believe that there is a role of Active Intent in relation to feelings and needs of others that is relevant. The most important aspect, imo, is the Act of Diminishing Impact, or at least attempting to do so by way of honoring the voice of he who is impacted. I don't believe that that is a single moment in time. Our ability to Diminish Impact by way of honoring the voice of he who is impacted is an ongoing process. I hear that you never relented in your attempts to Diminish Impact. I don't believe that there is the possibility or need to "fix" that which is in the past. There is a saying "Forgiveness is when you quit wishing the past was different than it was." You seem to need to forgive yourself still. I would suspect that your son experienced the event as a single experience; and he subsequently has seen that you do everything within your knowledge to Diminish Impact in similar situations.

Recognizing our power as parents to alleviate the use of force within the medical arena is one that many here have learned from your experience. So, much has been gained for your son and for our children from your experience. Thank you for helping us to see our power to refuse force in the face of forceful medical professionals. Due to my experience, I don't doubt my power to do the same. I honestly do feel, that except in life threatening situations, that there is opportunity to seek consent. By law, we do it with adults, even very irrational and uneducated ones. I am also aware of a myriad of ways to make interventions less invasive or less painful through elective sedation. So, I want to empower you further to Diminish Impact at your son's bequest when there is time to do so. I am NOT second guessing, I hope that you feel my shared goal for your son's body integrity. I too experienced abuse as a child and intensely want to spare any child that experience, in any way.

There is something empowering when I trust that there *always is a choice*. It doesn't have the sense of futility and finality that "no coercion" seems to connote. I have a sense of *seeking* enthusiastically a solution which is agreeable. That is such a different focus than "not coercion". This focus on creating an agreeable solution doesn't have the "can't" dead-end feel to it. My faith in a solution existing that is agreeable conveys energy and hopefullness to me. Sort of the 'necessity is the mother of invention' which "no coercion" doesn't embolden for me. It harkens back to the difference in the NVC "feeling" that is conveyed with "I have a need for xyz", rather than "my need for xyz is unmet". The hopefullness and possibility of a solution creates the peace that I need to discover the solution, rather than creating a "must NOT do" sense of fear and threat when focused on 'not coercing'.

The focus on mutually agreeable solutions includes all parties involved, not just the child's experience. The focus on non-coercion redirects the energy away looking at the needs.

It isn't failure not to know. There is always hope in learning. I hope that you can release your self-flagulation for your son's illness and experiences. You have advocated for him every step of the way. We all learn more each day. That is all that you can do. No one can ask more of you. You are making his world safe, every day in every way that you know. Safe to feel his feelings. Allow yourself the same, to trust yourself.

I think a part of me can't stand to not be successful at non-coercion again. I try so hard to give him power in other parts of his life, and if I'm not doing well enough at that in addition to all the crap we've already gone through, well than hell, what am I worth?

Don't focus on "non-coercion"; focus on creating mutually agreeable solutions. It is a powerful difference. There is no right/wrong, success/failure, there is *seeking* solutions. Trust that they exist and listen to 'what is the need'. The solutions manifest when we believe that they can. The more we practice seeking them, the easier it becomes to discover them, in my experience. Consensual Living totally is not about non-coercion. It is about solving for underlying needs.

And part of me is just a slightly different style/instinct, that most of the time looks remarkably non-coercive when I'm doing well. And part of me is still very stressed out after a difficult year, and very worn down, and very low on resources, and needing to do what I am good at, which is being an empathic, respectful mama duck type. I'm at my best when I do that, and it is not something to sneeze at, having a mama who is feeling confident and relaxed. When I am feeling that way we are all happier. Every time I try to move to complete non-coercion, we go unstable again. It just hasn't seemed worth it. There's a lot to be said for giving us stability right now.

I agree that Confidence and Trust in oneself is key.

I don't feel quite finished, but there's a start.

Quote:
Are you wanting to hear *how* to move through those feelings of imbued "guilt" which are familiar (and painful) from childhood?

I am not sure what exactly you mean by guilt. I mean, I know guilt, but I'm not clear what you mean in this question. In general, as I work to encounter my parenting issues, I return a lot to that thread that you bumped today, the end of the "help me understand" thread. Sledg's description of her experience has been so helpful for me as I lead myself through the more difficult parts of parenting. I am in therapy, too, with an excellent therapist who puts me in touch with my own nurturing and protective adult self, so that I can house the child in me who was hurt, and help her take off her coping masks and sit in safety. And I always want to hear how others find their way through things like this; I think it really helps to share that kind of work with one another. And I think I do long for this kind of work and talk to be present whenever we talk about parenting goals.

Guilt is a part of self-blame. I don't see any utility to it in my life. The book Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hanh has helped me to not only "forgive" the past, but to embrace it for what it has brought to me. I no longer judge it as good or bad, but necessary to my present Self, my learning and my growth. My self-care is highly associated with self-acceptance and Trust of Self.

Quote:
Do you feel that only "perfection" seems "good enough" when one talks about consensual solutions? Does "no coercion" feel like a "rule" that must not be broken... or else?
Yes.

I believe that we are perfectly where we are meant to be, each moment. And that all is as it is meant to be.

Pat, thank you for wanting to hear and understand me. It means so much to me that you invested the effort it must have taken to understand so well and check your understanding with me. Thank you. It was a real gift to get in touch with those feelings last night, and to make them available to me as I continue to do my work as a parent and a person. I really, really appreciate it.

I have gained much from your sharing. I appreciate your honesty, introspection and insight.

Pat


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Well then, ok. hehehe I guess I'm wrong about TCS! I did read around that site for a while, and never came across anything like that, Pat. But there is a lot of stuff there, that I'm sure I didn't get to!
I have to admit, my reluctance to go full tilt CL is the thought that coersion is wrong and to be avoided at all costs (obviously not in cases of possible harm to the child, etc). Because I can't go there, at least not right now. The constant theorizing and analyzing would just get to me. *I WANT to LOVE CL*. I liked it when I first heard of it, I wanted to love it then. But my head goes crazy thinking about it. "but what if..." type situations. For some reason I can't make it mesh.
Even dp, who rarely does anything that I would consider coercive, doesn't think that CL is right for him. I think it's like *loraxc* said- its in the toolbox, and he feels ok that it is there, as an option, if he needs it.

I can think of coersion as harmful. And I can think of having as a goal, trying to make situations consensual as often as possible. And I DO feel that ds's desires are as important as mine, and that he deserves respect and that coersion is obviously not respectful. For some reason thinking in those terms are way more useful to me. To me, those thoughts in my head are less judgemental. (not that anyone here has made me feel judged, this is what's in my head).
It is useful for me to be reminded that being consensual is ideal, but it is not useful for me to hear that coersion is wrong.

eta- I wonder if my whole part of this is just that I can't grasp the concept of CL. What it MEANS. Because I get flustered just thinking about it. I can't even really put into concrete thoughts why I can't be CL.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Simply, in a nutshell:
*
Don't focus on "non-coercion"; focus on creating mutually agreeable solutions. It is a powerful difference. There is no right/wrong, success/failure, there is *seeking* solutions.

Consensual Living totally is not about non-coercion. It is about solving for underlying needs.

Pat
*


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I am closing this thread to new posts while it is being reviewed by moderators and admins.

Any questions or concerns can be directed via PM to me or heartmama.
Thanks for your patience and understanding


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