# Anyone not planning to push a college education on their children?



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't know if "push" is the right word, but I have always assumed my kids would go to college, and I can't imagine them not going, so I imagine there will be some kind of pressure, though maybe just implicit, for them to go.

But I know people who feel the cost of college is not worth it - that you really just end up in debt and you still have trouble finding a job. There are other reasons I've heard for parents not wanting their kids to go to college. I'm trying to think of specific reasons off the top of my head, and I can't remember.

And then of course there is the possibility of being neutral, or having a preference but not wanting it to influence your kids and wanting them to choose independently.

How do you feel about this?


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## Dela (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm not going to "push" one way or the next. I'm focused on being supportive of what my children want for themselves. College is only as useful as what the person pursuing it wishes to apply it to. I don't think going to college for the sake of going is very helpful.

I was "pushed" into college. I don't regret going in hindsight -- mostly because I met DH there and had a few really cool professors who I loved hearing talk -- but honestly, it was not a necessary thing for me and aside from the few bright spots, I feel it was a massive waste of time. I went to college mostly because my parents subtly demeaned my ambitions and basically told me (without saying it directly) that without a college degree, I would be worth less (and worthless). To them, to society, to my future children.

So I put my ridiculous, worthless dreams on hold for 3 1/2 years and went. Hated most of it. After college I went into precisely the line of work I had wanted to before college, just 4 years later than I wanted to. My BA in History has done nothing for me except made me hate a subject I once loved by making it boring and making me regurgitate it soullessly and dispassionately on assignment after boring assignment. I didn't pick up a book on history for 5+ years after I graduated.

Now, my sister's passion was academically based and she LOVED college. So much that she ended up going for 9 or 10 years and getting a PhD. She loves her job and is doing what she always wanted. But she knew what she wanted and knew college was the only way to get there, so it definitely was NOT a waste of time for her.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> But I know people who feel the cost of college is not worth it - that you really just end up in debt and you still have trouble finding a job.
> And then of course there is the possibility of being neutral, or having a preference but not wanting it to influence your kids and wanting them to choose independently.
> ...


For any parent concerned about the cost of university, I suggest reading "debt free U." I borrowed it from the library and it really set my mind at ease. It advocates doing the first 2 years at community college, and makes the case that getting into debt for freshman classes is super silly.

Before our kids were really old enough to be basing on views on them as people and were just general "how we think parents oughta handle this," we weren't overly pro college. *We felt that young adults do best when they have a plan and a direction*, and while that is often college related, it doesn't have to be. And that an actual plan and direction that doesn't include university is preferable to university with no plan and no direction. A skilled trade would be fine with us. A business start up idea with a solid planning is something we would back. Something we hadn't thought of but our kid did would be fine. College would be super too -- both my DH and I have degrees and we are both glad that we do. It's sort of the default, but not the only option by a long shot.

To the present -- our oldest is 16 and attends community college. She has no plan or direction. She is working on gen eds and we encourage her to take at least one class a semester that just makes her heart sing. I'm hoping that she stumbles upon her passion this way. We'll see. She is enjoying learning, likes working towards her associates.

Our youngest is 15 and very pre-university in high school course choices. We've actually encouraged her to lighten her load instead of taking so many AP and pre-AP classes, but she is a very driven young woman.

As far as not influencing, I think it is part of our JOB as parents to help our kids figure out what direction they want to go in and then help and support them along the way. I consider this the "launch phase" and just as important as the in arms phase. The goal of good parenting is a emotionally healthy, independent adult, and an education/career path is part of that. What I see with my kids is that they need active listening to help them sort out their own thoughts. One of my kids needs encouragement when she is scared of the next step, and my other kid needs encouragement to find balance and to find her own value in things besides just academic achievement.

It's not so much that I think that parents should try to "influence," but rather support and encourage. I'm still APing. I'm still GD. I'm still very respectful of my kids as human beings. It's just translating to talking about different academic and career options.


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

I love college and learning. I don't love the double digits student loan debt.

I don't feel like my college education has done any thing for me other than made me feel better and helped me keep up in certain academic circles. Obviously spelling is not one of them...









So will I push college? Nah. They definitely know it's an option, and that both of their parents went. They also know that it's not like on TV, and you are often parroting what a professor tells you in order to get a piece of paper and life long debt.

I don't know if the $$ in debt was worth the boost in self esteem I got.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

The system is a bit different in Australia I think but I won't be pushing them to go to university. I would like them to have some sort of qualification but if they want a trade then an apprenticeship is probably going to be a better option.

That said, DH and I have about 7 degrees between us and enjoyed them all and use them every day in our jobs so they're going to hear mostly positive university stories from us and see the practical applications.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

We have strongly encouraged post-secondary education. Even pushed. Definitely influenced.

I have several degrees, including a Master's and professional school degrees. DH did not complete his degree: he's a couple of credits short. Despite our personal circumstances, we both see the merit of a university education.

We started out simply assuming that our dc would go. It wasn't even a question. We set up funds when they were born. We shared with them our own university experiences - and theirs. DS and DD were born before I finished my last couple of degrees. DS was on campus a fair amount with me. DD was a newborn when she attended classes with me for a mandatory month-long course. I joke that she's already completed that credit toward her professional designation.

At some point, we softened a little. If they are truly dedicated to some other path such as apprenticeship and want to forego college, that would be fine with us.

Both attended a performing arts high school (one was a music major, the other is a drama major). If they had decided that they wanted to pursue that dream after high school, then we would have supported them - in spirit, if not financially.

We encouraged a post-high school gap year for both of them, but DS decided he would rather start at college right after high school rather than travel or work or volunteer. He is now planning a post-grad gap year. DD is very tempted to take a gap year. She graduates from high school next spring, so she needs to figure out soon whether she wants to send off her college applications. One big factor in her mind is the impact on scholarships. We discovered with DS that it often isn't possible to defer a scholarship for a year, so taking a gap year means losing out on a fair amount of tuition support. It is also often not possible to defer entry to competitive, limited admission programs in order to take a gap year. DD is in Africa this summer on a travel/study/volunteer trip. It will be interesting to see whether this experience influences her decision.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> But I know people who feel the cost of college is not worth it - that you really just end up in debt and you still have trouble finding a job.


Yeah, I'm not going to give ds the party line that he should go to college and that if he goes to college he'll be able to get a good job. I do see the benefits of college. But I went before the debt thing got insane. I think I graduated with a debt of under 12,000. I didn't graduate with any particular skills that helped in the job market. The jobs I got didn't require a college education. Annoyingly at my first post college job, I had customers telling me I should go to college so I could get a better job. All. The. Time.

I'd prefer ds did something more trade schoolish, learned to be an electrician or something.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't push one way or the other. I have no idea what life path will be the right ones for my kids.

DS1 has one year left of his college program, which is Acting for Stage and Screen. There's a small part of me that feels as though I should have pushed him into learning something "practical", but...this is what he wants. He's been a performer since he was a toddler, has talent, and a huge passion for his craft. I have no desire to be an obstacle to that.

I have no idea what my other kids are going to do with their lives. I do know that ds1 is the first person in three generations of my family to actually have a dream, passion, goal, or whatever you want to call it. The rest of us have just kind of drifted along - sometimes falling into something we love, and sometimes not.

DD1 still wants to be an arachnologist when she grows up, so she fully intends to go to university. We'll see what happens with the other two.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

First of all, the debt thing is crazy. A lot of these parents and students need to pull their heads out of their butts and get a clue. I see kids going to $50,000 year private colleges to get a teaching degree when a very highly regarded state university 20 miles down the road costs $6,000 a year for the same degree. A friend of mine works in financial aid at a super pricey liberal arts school and says so many of the people simply cannot afford to send their kids to school there yet will borrow, borrow, borrow to make it happen. There are ways to make a college degree happen without the crazy debt load. I don't actually think $20,000 in student loan debt for a valuable degree that gives someone good earning potential is a bad thing. On the other hand, that debt for a "fun" degree or a degree that only works for lower paying jobs is a bad idea.

I think there is value in getting through college and graduating. I went to a liberal arts school and at the time, I hated some of my classes and thought they were stupid. Years later, I understand that working through Religions of the World, Biology, Sociology and other core classes made me a well-rounded individual and thought me to think about a bigger picture.

I want to teach my son to think very hard about what type of life he wants and figure out how college and career choices will enable him to live that life or not.

Because of my involvement with a number of organizations, I am in contact with recent graduates in the 22-30 yo age range that seem to have no clue that they can't be a social worker, or stay at home mom, or preschool teacher when they and their partners have huge student loan bills to pay.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caneel*
> 
> First of all, the debt thing is crazy. A lot of these parents and students need to pull their heads out of their butts and get a clue. I see kids going to $50,000 year private colleges to get a teaching degree when a very highly regarded state university 20 miles down the road costs $6,000 a year for the same degree. .....
> 
> ...


agreed. My husband makes more money than most people, but we can't afford 40 - 50 K per year per kid per year for college. Not even close. Yet some parents we know -- even the one's who've spent the last 25 years struggling to pay off triple-digit combined debt, act like we are bad parents for considering the cost and value of education. (We have friends who had combined debt of over 100K after finishing grad school who find it odd that our DD is at community college)

We've told our kids that if they end up with great scholarships to an expensive school we'll be very supportive, but that otherwise, they can learn and prepare for careers at state schools, which we can afford. I honestly think that what one majors in has a bigger impact on income than the school attended.

If I had had school debt, I most likely could not have stayed home with my kids. I don't think staying home is the be all and end all or that all moms *should* stay home, but *for me,* it was only an option because I paid for my education as I went along (at a state school by going part time and working). I want my kids to have real choices when they are grown, and I think that excessive school debt frequently gets in the way of that.

I agree about becoming a well-rounded and educated person, and this is where my DD who is community college is. By working on her gen eds, she is working on that part of a university degree. Our state has a very sweet system that the community colleges can stamp transcripts as meeting the state wide requirements, and then our 3 state universities accept it as a package.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> agreed. My husband makes more money than most people, *but we can't afford 40 - 50 K per year per kid per year for college. Not even close*. Yet some parents we know -- even the one's who've spent the last 25 years struggling to pay off triple-digit combined debt, act like we are bad parents for considering the cost and value of education. (We have friends who had combined debt of over 100K after finishing grad school who find it odd that our DD is at community college)


You know, even if you could, maybe it isn't the best use of that money, know what I mean? I know the type of parents that you mention.

I got in a debate one time with a friend and mentioned that assuming one could send their kid to a $50,000 a year school, might a better investment in their child's financial future be $10,000 a year for school and put the other $40,000 a year into the child's retirement fund and/or a down payment on a house? Imagine what $120,000 (assuming four years of undergrad) would be worth by the time that child retires? Or imagine being able to own your own home outright when you first get married/settle down? My friend thought I was nuts to think this way, that it short changes a child if they can't go to whatever school they want, for whatever they want.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Colleges that have a "sticker price" of 50k are usually half of that for the "financially average" family, just FYI. (I know it's still a lot of money.)


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## delightedbutterfly (Oct 5, 2006)

We will not be pushing a college (or university) education on our children.

I'd like them to be happy and content and driven in whatever they do. I would actually prefer they had trade of some sort first and foremost (whether that be something like electrical or plumbing or something like hair school it doesn't matter). For me trades are those things that people are always going to need.

I too think high debt for school is over rated for the most part. I have had a couple friends who have gone into major debt for school, but it's also been for a "trade like - degree" (pharmacist/doctor/vet) and it was something they were PASSIONATE about. And because of the earning potential they've been able to pay off the debt in only a few years without affecting their lives.

But then I also don't believe in paying for my adult child's post secondary education. Help them out in various ways? yes totally! But we will not be paying 100% of their schooling and living expenses.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

I think trades are underrated. I am a 42 yr old college educated female finding it very hard to get back into the workforce after 10 years at home with my kids. I am seriously contemplating going to get some sort of 2 year degree or certificate.

I got into FIT and another fashion school in Manhattan, but I was 17 when I graduated high school and it was a 2 yr program. The thought of being out in the real world at 19 scared me.

I decided to go to community college for a year or so and eventually go away to school. I got a BA in Communication. I dreamt of getting into the music industry after college, and I got my foot in the door by working at a studio for very little pay. I could have pursued it further, but I was young and enjoying the perks of being in the industry (parties, clubbing, etc.).

I was there a couple of years before settling down with a man in FL. I thought I would find a music industry related job in Miami, but I didn't. I worked in advertising, sales, banking, etc. from then on. I moved a lot and didn't keep a job longer than 3 years.

Now I am doing marketing part-time for a large franchise and I don't really enjoy it. I don't enjoy social situations and I have to be the local face of this company and ask people for their business which makes me uncomfortable. I only took the job because it was flexible and required very few hours. I am horrible with time management and I still need to be around for the kids...and their school is so far away, I spend 3 hours in the car every day getting them to and from school.

Most of the older people in my family were blue-collar type workers with no college education. They were smart with money and had great pensions and they did OK. It's not such a bad thing to just "work for a paycheck". You make the best of it and try to do something that fits your abilities so you can at least enjoy it a bit...and you can usually retire in 20-30 years...today people live so long, that if you start working around 20 and retire at 45, you can start a second career and do pretty well!

Both of my children have 4 years of state college paid for, and another small fund set up for college expenses. My husband is very straightforward with them when they ask about school "your going to college!". I feel the same way, but I don't like to put that kind of pressure on them yet...they are so young (6 and 10).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmarroq*
> 
> Most of the older people in my family were blue-collar type workers with no college education. They were smart with money and had great pensions and they did OK.


My dad was a furniture mover. My mom was a waitress (and single mom) when they met, and then a stay-at-home mom for quite a few years. By the time I was 18, they owned three properties. Even after a separation (where my mom had to buy my dad out), mom held on to two of them. She did, admittedly, get a degree when I was in my late teens, but she started out entry level (and nearly 40, in the mid-80s) and wasn't making a huge amount of money, yk? They bought the third house just shortly after she started work, which means they'd managed to acquire two houses on a mover's income. That's harder now, as single incomes don't cut it as well, but they mostly did it on financial management. (That wouldn't work for them, now, I have to admit. A "starter" home where I live, and grew up, is now somewhere around $600,000...but a lot of people with degrees can't buy them, either.)


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Short answer, No.

My dad went on to have a very nice career with a Bachelor in Business degree. I'm no longer sure that a BB today would carry the weight it did circa 1970. Kids today are amounting huge amounts of debt, and I know many that have no job to show for it. The trades are being ignored, downgraded, even though entry level positions start at $25/hr. Meanwhile, it seems like I'm competing with those with a college education for a cashier's job during the holiday season. Most farming work on organic farms in my area is going to college graduates from farming programs.

Well, OK.

It's like inflation: a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma.

I read an article in Newsweek a while back, calling my niece's and nephew's generation "Generation Screwed". One featured article talked about the the role of the Baby Boomers in this debacle, in their positions as advisors for today's college students, encouraging them to pick up more degrees (and debt) because of the benefits they saw in their day (which increasingly don't apply today). I'm not sure we can rest this on their shoulders entirely, but it made for a good argument.

My girls might very well go to college, and I will be there to support them in some way if they do. But it will simply be an option, and for some things and excellent option. Certainly not the only one, though.

ETA:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/15/are-millennials-the-screwed-generation.html

Who knows what things will be like in 10 years when college becomes an option for my oldest? So much seems like a rat race that I want no part of for my daughters. When they find their calling, college will be there for them.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> We will not be pushing a college (or university) education on our children.
> 
> ...


I agree on both points.

Skilled and reliable trades are in demand. I know several men in their 20s that are highly talented in plumbing, electrical, etc and they will always be able to earn a decent living because their skills are in demand AND they are willing to work.

DH and I agreed that if DS has a passion for a high earning field like medicine or engineering, we would not discourage him for going to a school that specializes in that field even if the school is very expensive. I do think there are some career paths where a degree from a top tier school may matter down the road for grad school, med school, etc.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

We won't push it at all. If they wanna go, fine. If not, fine. I just want them to do whatever makes their hearts sing. And if they spend twenty years trying to find that out (like I did) then that's okay too. No pressure, just support. The only thing I won't agree with is doing nothing but playing video games LOL. Unless video games becomes a passion that they can do something with!!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> I think I graduated with a debt of under 12,000. I didn't graduate with any particular skills that helped in the job market. The jobs I got didn't require a college education. Annoyingly at my first post college job, I had customers telling me I should go to college so I could get a better job. All. The. Time.


about 50% of college graduates under 25 are working in jobs that do not require a college degree. I feel like college is marketed to teens as this thing that if they do, then everything will be easy for them, and that just isn't the case (especially if the major in liberal arts)

My first job post college didn't require a degree. However, I got promotions that wouldn't have been available to me without the degree, so in the end, it did pay off for me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caneel*
> 
> You know, even if you could, maybe it isn't the best use of that money, know what I mean? I know the type of parents that you mention.
> 
> I got in a debate one time with a friend and mentioned that assuming one could send their kid to a $50,000 a year school, might a better investment in their child's financial future be $10,000 a year for school and put the other $40,000 a year into the child's retirement fund and/or a down payment on a house? Imagine what $120,000 (assuming four years of undergrad) would be worth by the time that child retires? Or imagine being able to own your own home outright when you first get married/settle down? My friend thought I was nuts to think this way, that *it short changes a child if they can't go to whatever school they want,* for whatever they want.


I'm totally with you, and I find the other line of reasoning more common -- even though it makes no sense to me. But I wouldn't buy my kid a Mercedes just because they wanted one, I'd get them something more like a used Ford Fusion. I don't understand not looking at the sticker price for things, and I think that parents that PUSH their kids to go to expensive college when it means that the kid must take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt are doing their kids a huge disservice.

There are other things in life we hope to help our children with -- study abroad programs, down payments on houses, possible graduate school, and I can't see spending 50K a year for the first two years of college. It just seems like throwing money away.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *A&A*
> 
> Colleges that have a "sticker price" of 50k are usually half of that for the "financially average" family, just FYI. (I know it's still a lot of money.)


yes, but the formulas are set up such that *unless you can just pay for the school,* your kid will end up with debt. If that weren't the case, the percentage of grads with debt would be lower (currently 67% of college grads have debt, and both the percentage and the amount of debt rise every year)

Also, a lot of kids end up not finishing college. The US leads the world in college drop outs. Many young people end up with no degree, but with lots of school debt.

A year a community college cost about $2,000. So for the first two years of college, a total of $4,000 vs $50,000 or $100,000. Its a very simple math problem.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> I too think high debt for school is over rated for the most part. I have had a couple friends who have gone into major debt for school, but it's also been for a "trade like - degree" (pharmacist/doctor/vet) and it was something they were PASSIONATE about. And because of the earning potential they've been able to pay off the debt in only a few years without affecting their lives.
> 
> But then I also don't believe in paying for my adult child's post secondary education. Help them out in various ways? yes totally! But we will not be paying 100% of their schooling and living expenses.


I know people in their 40's still paying off professional degrees. They fall into 2 very different groups.

Group 1 is very passionate about what they do and about service and meaning, and therefor have used their education to make a difference in the world, but not make a lot of money.

Group 2 got the degrees because the wanted a lifestyle, which they started when they graduated. Some of them are seriously overextended. On top of school debt, they added all sorts of other debt.

I do believe in helping kids get started in life, but I can see that being very different things for different kids.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caneel*
> 
> DH and I agreed that if DS has a passion for a high earning field like medicine or engineering, we would not discourage him for going to a school that specializes in that field even if the school is very expensive. I do think there are some career paths where a degree from a top tier school may matter down the road for grad school, med school, etc.


I see your point, and agree that debt for medical school (or other professional schools) isn't like debt for a BA in philosophy, but I wouldn't group engineering in the same cluster. In most states, land grant universities (i.e. state universities) are required to contribute to industry and the economy, and therefore end up with at least one campus with an excellent engineering program. In most states, it is quite possible to get an excellent engineering education for in-state tuition. And because you have to be really smart to get through engineering school, many engineering majors qualify for merit scholarships for at least part of their expenses.

My DD who is still in highschool is planning on majoring in engineering, and the university in our state with the best program for her specific interest is one that *if she continues on her current trajectory,* she will have a full tuition scholarship for. It's not even a competitive scholarship -- you just met the requirements, and you get full tuition. The university happens to be in our city, so she'll live at home (which is her preference, having done camps where she said in college dorms!).

but back to medical school and other professional graduate degrees, seeing how things are playing out for my super bright DD, I seriously wonder if anyone who has what it takes to get into and complete professional school, NEEDS to get into debt for their undergraduate degree. If they aren't getting full rides, then why do the think they will get into professional school at the end?

Debt to complete professional schools -- sure.

Debt to take freshmen level classes when you plan on attending those schools -- doesn't add up to me.


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## rcr (Jul 29, 2008)

I am totally pushing college. I am surprised to see so many people aren't. My mom pushed college on me, and I was not really inclined to go but did. It was one of the best decisions she made. I can't imagine where my life would be without college (I am a college professor now). I think that you go to college to open up more choices in life - not for a "job" or career, but to have more choices. We started saving for college the month that DS was born. I know it is expensive, but it is a sacrifice that we are willing to take.


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## crunchymama19 (Apr 9, 2011)

I am not going to push college. Both DH and I went to college and I went all the way to my PhD. Good experiences, however neither of us are doing a thing with our degrees. I don't have nearly as much student debt compared to most people but it is still going to take awhile to pay off. My parents really pushed college, it was the holy grail of their generation. My sister ended up in a career she hated but made money. She still regrets giving up her original path for the sake of job stability and higher pay. My brother did a short stint at community college and was miserable. He quit, and made his own path and is pretty successful in what he does without even an associates degree. I am the "doctor" but lol, I stay at home and homeschool my growing family. I tried a career in my degree and realized it was really something I just enjoyed learning about it, having it as a job held no interest for me after having a family.

On the other hand, I have friends that went, paid their own way, worked their tails off and achieved their goals (one a vet , the other an ESL teacher, and another an PhD scientist)

One thing I did learn from college is how many were there completely wasting their time and money. They had no clue what they wanted to do, got very little from the experience, and weren't much better off after than before. They were just their because mom and dad told them too and were paying for it.

If my children go to college, I want them to have a definitive goal, something that they are truly passionate about. If it's dance or pre-med or whatever that is fine, but I want them to go because they a goal to reach and a plan. I don't want them to go just to go. BUT they have to help pay for it. Scholarship, ROTC, going part time and working part-time, something. Who knows if it will even be financially feasible for us to help them when they are ready but we'll see. Even if we can miraculously pay for all of it for them I don't want to. I want them to invest in their own education and goals.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> I am totally pushing college. I am surprised to see so many people aren't. My mom pushed college on me, and I was not really inclined to go but did. It was one of the best decisions she made. I can't imagine where my life would be without college (I am a college professor now). I think that you go to college to open up more choices in life - not for a "job" or career, but to have more choices. We started saving for college the month that DS was born. I know it is expensive, but it is a sacrifice that we are willing to take.


Talking with kids about the choices that college can open up for them is not the same as "pushing" college. And pushing college does not always lead to mismanagement of debt or unused degrees or other wastes of time and cash. Sometimes, the results are positive, but I think they are that way not because pushing college is a good thing, just that the particular path a student takes was a good fit in the first place.

My attitudes come from 2 things: First, our own education. I didn't finish college. DH never found a degree path that fit what he wanted to do--neither landscape architecture nor horticulture quite fit, so he left to pursue it how he wished. We are both self-employed, and quite happy about where we are. However, we don't make a lot of money, so that's #2: we can't afford to fund our girls' education, though we can support it. I refuse to encourage my kids that taking on massive debt is the best thing for them when so many other options are available. I think it can be a good thing that kids have to wait a bit (perhaps to make some money to pay their way) before embarking on a college degree: they are more focussed, they are better students, they know why they are there. So many students I have met are there just because it is the next thing after high school.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

this is a hard question for me.

dd knows she can do whatever she wants.

but i do encourage college. because i think its only then will she enjoy education. right now she is only going to school because she has to, not because she wants to. i want her to take a couple of semesters of classes at our local community college and see how she feels.

i expect her to do what she likes. not keep a job just to pay her bills.

that is why i think its important to have many different skills that she can use to be in different professions.

even more than college i think its far more important that she know a music instrument, she knows how to cook, how to fix cars, how to fix houses, to stand up in front of people and talk.

right now money is not even anything i think of as that is not a choice.

but i dont want dd to go to college just coz its the right thing to do. i want her to go because she is curious and wants to.

seeing her personality i really do think college will do her good - esp. if my profs are around and dd could take a class from them.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

I've been thinking about this some more after reading some posts. It's true, there are a lot of people at college who are just there because they knew they had to go to college, but they have no idea what their passion is or how to pursue it. That was me. I had lots of ideas of what I wanted to do, but didn't have a clue about how to get into it, or once I saw how hard it was, I decided I hated it. Overall, I think the college experience (getting out of my small town, living on my own, being around people who actually had dreams of becoming something, getting the college experience, meeting my husband) was a positive one. I was mainly there for the experience and the fun times with friends, and most of my friends were the same way...not particularly driven as far as I could tell. Some of them used their degrees to get into specific industries, some of them didn't.

My sister had a lot more drive, but my parents didn't know much about college and told her to just get some sort of business degree, since that would be versatile. They also put limits on where we could go to school, so that squashed my sisters dreams of going to the best schools. She was at the top of her class in HS and many of her friends went to the best schools like Brown. I think she applied for the heck of it and got into Wesleyan. Her guidance counselors didn't help much either. She got a business degree and landed a good job, since she was so bright. She hated it after a while and at 28, went into a lot of debt to go to Boston to pursue a law degree. I know some feel that limiting where a child can go to school for money purposes is a good idea, but in my sister's case, she was pretty ticked off that my parents limited where she could study and told her to get a vague degree. I think she feels that she would have found her passion a lot sooner had she been allowed to go to school with her friends. She only practiced law for a short time before deciding to stay home and raise her children. Her youngest is 10 and she has no immediate plans to get back into law.

My husband's experience was similar. His father told him his dreams of becoming a vet were silly and he needed to go into law, business, or "real" medicine. My husband got an economics degree and another degree (criminal justice?)...see? I can't even remember! He went to online school for his Masters in business also. Again, parents got in the way. I know he was not happy that his dad made career decisions for him. His dad seems like he might be controlling and manipulative (they don't have a good relationship), so my guess is that the school that had the vet program was a lot more expensive. Rather than being honest and saying "one day you can pursue that on your own, but I can not afford to send you there", he had to make up some lie about better careers.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

I've been thinking about this some more after reading some posts. It's true, there are a lot of people at college who are just there because they knew they had to go to college, but they have no idea what their passion is or how to pursue it. That was me. I had lots of ideas of what I wanted to do, but didn't have a clue about how to get into it, or once I saw how hard it was, I decided I hated it.

Overall, I think the college experience (getting out of my small town, living on my own, being around people who actually had dreams of becoming something, getting the college experience, meeting my husband) was a positive one. I was mainly there for the experience and the fun times with friends, and most of my friends were the same way...not particularly driven. Some of them used their degrees to get into specific industries, some of them didn't.

My parents didn't know much about college and told my sister to just get some sort of business degree, since that would be versatile. They also put limits on where we could go to school, so that squashed my sisters dreams of going to the best schools. She was at the top of her class in HS and many of her friends went to the best schools like Brown. I think she got into Wesleyan and I remember her going to visit the campus. Her guidance counselors didn't help much either, as she once told me she was pretty disappointed by them. She got a business degree and landed a good job, since she was so bright. She hated it after a while and at 28, went into a lot of debt to go to Boston to pursue a law degree. My sister was not happy that my parents limited where she could study and told her to get a vague degree. I think she feels that she would have found her passion a lot sooner had she been allowed to go to school with her friends. She only practiced law for a short time before deciding to stay home and raise her children. Her youngest is 10 and she has no immediate plans to get back into law.

My husband's father told him his dreams of becoming a vet were silly and he needed to go into law, business, or "real" medicine if he wanted to make "real" money. My husband got an economics degree and another degree (criminal justice?)...see? I can't even remember, so it was pretty pointless! He later went to online school for his Masters in business. I know he was not happy that his dad squashed his dreams. My guess is that the school that had the vet program was a lot more expensive. Rather than being honest and understanding and supportive and saying "one day you can pursue that on your own, but I can not afford to send you there", he had to make up some lie about better careers and push him in another direction (they never had a good relationship, and I could see him being controlling and manipulative like this).


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## crunchymama19 (Apr 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> I refuse to encourage my kids that taking on massive debt is the best thing for them when so many other options are available. I think it can be a good thing that kids have to wait a bit (perhaps to make some money to pay their way) before embarking on a college degree: they are more focussed, they are better students, they know why they are there. So many students I have met are there just because it is the next thing after high school.


This. In my experience as a TA in grad school, my best students were the ones who were older and were pursuing a second career or who had simply taken some time off to figure out what they REALLY wanted. They were motivated and interested in actually learning the material rather than just passing or getting a certain grade. I really think so many would benefit in taking a year off after high school, to travel, and pursue things that interest them before jumping into college right away. I wish I had done that.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmarroq*
> 
> They also put limits on where we could go to school, so that squashed my sisters dreams of going to the best schools. ...
> 
> My husband's father told him his dreams of becoming a vet were silly and he needed to go into law, business, or "real" medicine if he wanted to make "real" money. .


Isn't the take away from your family that parents should be supportive of what teens want for themselves rather than pushing their own agenda?

We aren't putting limits on where on kids can apply or go to school, but we have made a decision to stay away from the "Race to Nowhere." There is INSANE pressure on kids in middle class suburbs to get straight A's and collect accomplishments that look good on an application so they can go to a "good" college, all the while going to school year round (you can't take the toughest classes at our highschool without going to summer school to get the prerequisites out of the way). The pressure that my 15 year old feels -- from heaven knows where -- is enough to make her crazy.

So as parents, we've decided not to play. Our standard is a 3.5 GPA and taking the classes she needs to be considered to not have any deficiencies at our state university system. Her own standards are higher than that, and include a very solid prep plan for what she intends to major in, based on what she's learned by attending engineering camp, and a 3.75 unweighted GPA.

While her standards and achievements are enough to get her a free ride at the big state U (and be set to finish an engineering degree in 4 years), it most likely wouldn't even get her admitted to competitive private college. And I would rather her have a SANE highschool experience than push her to be the kind of student that sometimes gets in, but more often gets rejected, by top schools.

from: http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2012/09/25/focus-on-7-strategies-to-get-into-college

Quote:


> of the 26,664 students who applied to Princeton University for fall 2012, fully 10,225 had a 4.0 GPA, and 13,945 scored at least a 2100 on the SAT.


The subtle difference between what she does and what she would need to be doing? Letting the occasional B slide. Taking 3 years of foreign language, rather than 4. Taking *only* 5 academic class (AP and pre AP) classes at a time. Getting focused on what she needs to do in highschool at the end of her freshmen year, rather than 8th grade. Spending time hanging out with friends playing games and watching movies, rather than making every single minute about Getting Into Good College. (She still spends a tremendous amount of time, year round, on school).

When it is time for her to apply for schools, we will be supportive of her choices, though we will still try to steer her away from the craziness. If she wants to apply to competitive programs, we will try to be sane and supportive of her as a human beings, because at this point in time, teens are not getting that from any other part of our society.

My other DD doesn't do well with stress and pressure, which is part of why community college is perfect for her for now. She'll most likely do a state U for the last 2 years, partly because that way her first 60 hours will count and "fit"!

But with both my kids, I feel I like I need to protect them from the Race To Nowhere.


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## Emaye (May 23, 2008)

I actually hope my kids will go to a trade/vocational school instead of high School. Then they can go to the university while working minimally within their trade fields. All this is, of course, if they are interested in pursuing this path and it is a possible route.


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## rcr (Jul 29, 2008)

I am curious of anybody knows the realities of the trades nowadays? I ask because I don't really know the facts, but my guess is that they aren't the great option that they once were. Things are made so cheaply and everything is disposable. When our washing maching broke it was cheaper to get a new one than repair it, same with our cell phones and my mom's TV. I know there are still painters and plumbers, etc. (DH does construction), but there is so much anti-union sentiment today, I am wondering if the trades are really the option that they once were.


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## delightedbutterfly (Oct 5, 2006)

I guess it depends on where you are but yes trades still are a great job. The pay is decent and they will always be in demand. Comparing buying a new washing machine to a plumbers job is kinda like apples and oranges. And there are times when an appliance repair man is still cheaper than a new machine.

Where we live trades are in high demand. Not only is there a shortage, but there are people working in the trades that would like to retire and can't (because they don't feel there is someone who is able to take their place).

DH has worked in residential trades and we've gotten by, he now works in Industrial and for the amount of school vs benefits, I have no qualms about directing my children to the trades.

I prefer to look at it as "if the world went kaput tomorrow what skills would really be needed in this world." Trades are huge on that list, they will just always be needed.


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## ocelotmom (Jul 29, 2003)

It was always assumed, by my family and the schools that I attended, that I was going to go to a good school straight out of high school. So I did, and it was a big mistake. I was totally burnt out on school at that point, and ended up doing horribly. When I went back a few years later, I did mostly ok. When I went back again when I was truly motivated, I did great in a very difficult program.

I've also seen the trouble that passing-but-halfhearted grades in college can be if someone later decides they have different, more competitive, educational goals.

I want my kids to have the option of going to college (academically and financially), but to also feel like they have other options if it isn't right for them.


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## jtapc90 (Jul 3, 2012)

I know people personally, and its quite a few, who have their degrees and can not get a job and are too proud/embarrassed to survive off of minimum wage jobs. Another example for a different perspective is some kids whose parents have the money and push them into college and then the kids drop out or find a different way, outside of college, to achieve what they want to do or maybe the kid completely changes their mind on what they want to do and has to start all over costing even more money...and it ticks the parents off, sometimes to the point where it ruins the relationship between them even in some cases permanently.

My personal approach is hands off. I will not push my kids to do anything but I will arouse their curiosity in any possible way I can so that they know they can be *whatever* they so desire and to go for it but it won't be easy and it won't be paid for...completely. I will help out, yes, but they will need to show me that this is what they want in life and work their butts off for it (and hopefully along the way they would catch a scholarship of some amount though I ain't sweating that either, like I said I'll help out).

The bottom line is that I refuse to go into debt to put my kids through extra schooling only for them to be working at McDonald's. Maybe I'm a horrible parent for that but I stand firm there and I believe it is the best way for my children, myself, and our family.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> I guess it depends on where you are but yes trades still are a great job. The pay is decent and they will always be in demand. Comparing buying a new washing machine to a plumbers job is kinda like apples and oranges. And there are times when an appliance repair man is still cheaper than a new machine.


And then there are things like health care. Not nurses and doctors but all those technicians that run all those machines. I was floored to go to the dentist during college and have my high school classmate there working as either a hygienist or an assistant. There she was working at a "real" job while I was still working on my BA... I didn't really realize what non college options existed when I was in college.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> I guess it depends on where you are but yes trades still are a great job.


I think it depends on what one means by "the trades."

There are some trades, like machinist, that I don't think are great to go into at this time. However, from recently needing an electrician and calling around and getting quotes, them seem to do quite well! We will always need people who can build homes and business and do all that stuff that keeps them running, but soooo much manufacturing has left the country, and more high tech manufacturing is leaving, that some trades that were solid choices in the past just aren't know.

One new area of trades are skills associated with computers -- people who design, build, and maintain networks, for example. It requires skills (that can be gained through courses) and certification based on passing test, but not regular college work. There are tons of people fixing computers, doing basic coding or desktop publishing, building web pages etc. who do not have 4 year degrees.


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

I never finished college, and my husband never went. We live solely off of his income, and we own a home, two cars, yadda yadda. He got a paid apprenticeship and now works as a journeyman plumber. I feel like this works very well for our family, and I'd definitely encourage my kids to pursue a similar career path if they have the interest and aptitude.


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## ihave7kids (Apr 21, 2012)

Well, my husband and I went to school for a combined total of 37 years...that's a master's degree and one year toward a PhD for me, and law degree for him. We really value education. We homeschool our 7 (soon to be 8) children. That being said, I would not push any of my kids into college if that's not where their heart is. I have one son who is an amazing artist and so very creative. College might not be the place for him. Anyone who wants to go to college will probably do online classes or community college for the first 2 years, then transfer, unless they get a scholarship. This is possible for at least 2 of my kids who are really smart. But with 8 kids, that's 32 years of college to pay for...who can afford $50K per year?? That's be $1.6 million!! That's completely insane. So, in the end, education is always useful, but it doesn't need to be at an expensive 4-year school for every kid. It needs to be individual and it needs to prepare them to do something they really love with their life!


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

This is relevant, but something of an aside.

I worked today so I thought about this; recently I've worked as a self-employed housekeeper. Before kids, I worked with my husband, a professional gardener, and I had a few clients of my own. I love both jobs. I love the physicality of them, and I have a hard time imagining a job that doesn't require physical movement of some kind: farming, building, gardening. Gardening is one of those trades that is difficult to be good at without simply doing it (I've had the misfortune to maintain several gardens designed by landscape architects, many of whom are completely clueless when it comes to how gardens are actually maintained.)

So, I'm not claiming superiority over a good degree or anything, but for the most part I've been quite satisfied with what I've been doing. It's good to hear my girls (who get to work with me and their dad now and again for some really decent cash) comment that they want to grow up to be a housekeeper/gardener. I smile and say "It's a really good skill to have. If you go to college, you could be making $25 an hour while your fellow students are making minimum wage. That will give you a good start." I don't hope that they end up where I am, but I am glad that they don't have ideas that one trade is inherently superior to another. It will also give them great appreciation for the folks whose backs this society functions upon.


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## Angela Aloisi (Jun 17, 2011)

I am not pushing college, even though my husband and I both went, and most everyone in our families has at least went for a few years (some of whom ended up in professor and teacher positions). My main reason for that is that most of the people that went, didn't know what they wanted when they went, and ended up trained in something they didn't end up doing for even 6 months before quitting. Some of the smarter ones quit before graduating, but after they figured out that they would not spend their life in that job. My husband being one of them. He got instead into a trade. Now his old classmates because of the education are stuck in the same job, because of debt, and being too old to start over. He now has the ability to get back into his profession without the degree if he so desired, but doing what he likes now, he has the freedom, more money and.opportunities then his schoolmates that stayed in the profession. There are some professions that do require a degree, and will actually get you a very likely job, but they seem to be more and more rare. Employers are opting for teachable apprentices over trained and arrogant college degree young people more these days, and I can't blame them. While I won't discourage my kids from college if they really know what they want, I certainly will discourage it at an early age, and borrowing money to go.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Undergrad was all about the experience for me. I didn't have a clue about my career, and the expensive private school I attended encouraged the experience over the worrying about the future. The material I get from them now features a lot of stuff about helping young alumni on their career paths.... which I think is pretty entertaining. Apparently they realized that strategy was not working so well. From undergrad I am $15k in debt for a degree in English literature. I actually do think it was worth it for a number of reasons, and I got enough scholarships to cushion the blow a lot. But for my own kid, I am hoping "get the h311 away from parents" and "try to fix self-esteem after years of verbal abuse" are not among the reasons on their list, and that might change a lot of things.

My husband is emphatic that he doesn't want our kids to go to college unless they have a plan for what they want to do, even if they change it later... and I think I'm inclined to agree. I did figure out what I wanted to do and went back to school, but figuring it out earlier would have been better in a number of ways. He went through some twists and turns too but never lost sight of the prize. Of course, he has almost $100k in debt and works at a job that pays $45k a year, so maybe I shouldn't listen to him either.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> I guess it depends on where you are but yes trades still are a great job. The pay is decent and they will always be in demand. Comparing buying a new washing machine to a plumbers job is kinda like apples and oranges. And there are times when an appliance repair man is still cheaper than a new machine.
> 
> ...


The bold is very true where I live. We are in construction and have to go begging for plumbers and electricians. HVAC is another field with strong demand. The men I know that work in those fields have more work then they can handle.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

College was hell. Nothing but a big shameful stain, because I couldn't finish it. My parents were college grads, both were teachers. All my siblings are college grads. I'm 45 years old and dropping out of college is still the hardest thing I've ever had to do. My mom was on her way to becoming an alcoholic, she had to get buzzed in order to tell me, drink in hand, she'd finally accepted that it's okay that I wasn't going to college.

Believe me, I wanted to go to college, I'd always wanted to, I'd assumed that's what I'd do.

God forbid, any of you shocked that not everyone pushes their kids to go to college, god help your child if they simply cannot cram their square selves into the same round hole you went through.


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## Dela (Jul 8, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> College was hell. Nothing but a big shameful stain, because I couldn't finish it. My parents were college grads, both were teachers. All my siblings are college grads. I'm 45 years old and dropping out of college is still the hardest thing I've ever had to do. My mom was on her way to becoming an alcoholic, she had to get buzzed in order to tell me, drink in hand, she'd finally accepted that it's okay that I wasn't going to college.
> 
> ...


This is amazing. Every single feeling I had through college, right here, except that I never wanted to go in the first place. I'm sure I only finished because I chose a liberal arts track and I'm really fantastic at bull----ing my way through endless, pointless assignments. I can write my way out of anything. My husband had painstakingly guide me through every math class to get me to scrape a C or D, if I didn't have him tutoring me constantly I'd never have made it no matter how hard I tried.

So basically what I learned in college is the importance of being able to say a lot without really saying anything, how to artificially inflate a 1-page essay into 10 and still get an A, and that as long as you're passing the test, learning is not required.


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## Mama-noua (Apr 17, 2008)

I am surprised how many of the comments center around money and the value that the post college job/income brings in relation to the college debt.

So many of the posts, so accurately say...teens should be encouraged to follow their passions! I keep wondering, though, how many teens are really passionate about being a plumber, or an electrical line worker or a road construction worker??? Sure, you make good money...but to be really passionate it?? With a degree from a higher learning institution, couldn't your interests be better turned into a job you are actually excited and passionate about?

I had tons of debt when I graduated and like most of you, I'm not using my degree now because I'm at home with the kids.... but that doesn't mean my degree is invaluable and those years were wasted.

Those debts are easily paid off even with low income jobs assuming you a) pay at least a little more than the minimum, b) ask the debt to be deferred if you have financial problems and c) understand that your first job will be a lower level job because after you learn the trade/get a degree, you need experience to get the glamourous jobs and earn higher wages!

College isn't about the cost.... it's about living on your own and with other people and sharing ideas and being excited about the party on the weekend and sitting in classes hearing new ideas and different ways of thinking....It's about discovering yourself. Yes, it might be challenging (financially and academically), but challenges are meant to be surmounted, they build character.

I really can't be upset about the idea that at least some of our nation's teachers earn good money or even that that tuition money helps to drive research and development that generates new technologies and new jobs.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Argh. Too many objections, head's going to explode, should be sleeping, have to get up early.

I'll just say that it's naive to think a person can't be excited about doing a great job of laying down a large swath of asphalt.

Do you think those poor plumbers out there are all hating their jobs? Ya think they don't get excited about parties on the weekend??


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Let's just separate the comparisons between plumbers and the college educated. The college experience can be inspiring and fun and enriching without trivializing a huge, vitally important population of your fellow humans who manage to find passion, satisfaction and pride outside of a university.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

So far, my issues related to college have been my daughter informing me repeatedly that tech is below her. No one goes to tech, everyone in her graduating class going to college were going to actual colleges, not a technical college. Even for the 2 year degrees(which is what she is going for). Well of course this turned out to be false, I don't know why she had it in her head. She got the LIFE scholarship which is a state scholarship for 3.0gpa in high school. It will pay for almost everything for a two year degree. She finally decided tech is ok after her boyfriend began his enrollment process at a tech college. I don't push college, but if my kids are wanting to do something that requires a degree I would rather them get it in an affordable manner!! And this scholarship is for this fall enrollment so I did encourage her to start in the fall instead of the spring as she had planned.

For the pp who claimed student loans weren't that hard to repay...you should read some peoples' experiences trying to repay those things. It can make life hell and make it impossible to have a family. There is only so much time to defer and once it runs out you are screwed. If you have a hard time finding a good enough job, you have to take what you can get, and it's not always enough. Forget it if you have medical problems, then you get to choose between taking care of yourself/kids and paying your student loan. It's just not so easy for everyone, even with careful planning. You never know how your life will turn out...jobwise, healthwise, familywise...


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## Chaika (Jan 30, 2011)

This is an interesting discussion. I understand, practically, why a parent would want their kid to have a plan going into college, but I think some 18 year olds may not be at that point yet. A lot of people are still figuring out who they are at 18, and a good liberal arts education can give kids the opportunity to learn about several things before choosing something to focus on.

My parents pushed us to go to college. Both of them had Associate degrees but they struggled with money and insisted that we go for Bachelor's. At one point in high school I remember telling my mom I wanted to go to massage therapy school. She said I could do that...but only after getting my BA. After college I got a job for which a BA was required, though it was not in my field. My BA is in Theater and I have done theater consistently, but have never managed to make a living from it. I did end up going to massage school eventually, and loved it, and have worked as a Massage Therapist ever since. But here's the thing about physical jobs - sometimes your body can't handle it! I just had to have surgery on my wrist and am currently not able to work. I no longer consider massage to be a long-term career option, and am currently working on my Master's.

I asked my husband what he thought about this topic, and he said he plans to raise our son in an environment where it would seem absurd for him not to go to college. If you look at statistics, the odds are pretty good for this - he has a PhD and I will have a Master's...although rebellion is always a possibility, I doubt our kid will want to skip college.

I think the higher Ed bubble is definitely bursting, and schools will be forced to think creatively and offer more affordable options. I foresee more development of online education.

Sorry for any typos...I only have one usable hand at the moment and I'm not so great at typing this way!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chaika*
> 
> I asked my husband what he thought about this topic, and he said he plans to raise our son in an environment where it would seem absurd for him not to go to college. If you look at statistics, the odds are pretty good for this - he has a PhD and I will have a Master's...although rebellion is always a possibility, I doubt our kid will want to skip college.


I understand where he is coming from, I've seen the stats. But I think that attitude risks this:

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> College was hell. Nothing but a big shameful stain, because I couldn't finish it. My parents were college grads, both were teachers. All my siblings are college grads. I'm 45 years old and *dropping out of college is still the hardest thing I've ever had to do. * My mom was on her way to becoming an alcoholic, she had to get buzzed in order to tell me, drink in hand, she'd finally accepted that it's okay that I wasn't going to college.


College isn't for everybody, and I truly believe that if parents feel that it is the only real option and then have a child who it isn't a great option for, it works out pretty crappy for the kid (and the parent's relationship with the kid).


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama-noua*
> 
> College isn't about the cost.... it's about living on your own and with other people and sharing ideas and being excited about the party on the weekend and sitting in classes hearing new ideas and different ways of thinking....It's about discovering yourself. Yes, it might be challenging (financially and academically), but challenges are meant to be surmounted, they build character.


This is a privileged observation, that college isn't about the cost. For many if not most of us, cost is the bottom line. "Challenging" doesn't even begin to touch on the reality of tuition plus all the expenses that go with it.

Also, I've had the same experience "living on your own", "sharing ideas" and "hearing new ideas and different ways of thinking" by sticking out my thumb and traveling the country. For free.

College can be a good thing, a great thing. But I do not have the luxury to let it be for "being excited about the party on the weekend". Nope. (Addressed to dds): "Find" yourself on your own dime, thank you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama-noua*
> 
> I am surprised how many of the comments center around money and the value that the post college job/income brings in relation to the college debt.
> 
> ...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I am at least "pushing" an associate's degree. The high schools in our area have a program where they will pay for kids to take classes at community college. I fully expect our children to participate.


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## ihave7kids (Apr 21, 2012)

This discussion is getting really interesting!

I completely agree that you can be passionate about your work whether you went to college or not. Everyone needs to find the right place for them to use their abilities and talents.

I absolutely loved being a speech therapist, my husband loves being his own boss in his law firm where he mostly helps elderly people and families with special needs children ( he would hate being any other kind of lawyer).

But I also know my uncle LOVED being a NJ transit bus driver. He loved driving, he loved meeting new people every day, and it funded a very nice retirement on a lake in NH!

My dad loved being a financial executive in NYC for many years. It excited him and was challenging, and he looked forward to going every day. Until a new CEO took over, who wasn't honest or trustworthy, and my dad then counted the days to retirement. While he admits that he couldn't have gotten the job without a degree, he also says he learned very little in college or graduate school that helped him in his work.

As for the debt incurred and how hard it is to pay off, I would caution people on this front, including my own children. When my husband and I married, he was in his last semester of law school, and 6 months later we had a huge debt we had to begin paying back, whether he had gotten a job or not! It took us 10 years to pay back, and it seriously impacted our decisions and timing about buying a home and having our first baby. Maybe this wouldn't have been as difficult if I was willing to work full time when having a family, but staying home was more important to me than the money. Was it worth it? In hindsight, I believe it was because it allowed him to make a very good living and support a big family, but those first 10 years were HARD!

I think the most important thing that we as parents need to do is to lead our children on the road to being happy, productive, responsible adult members of society. But there are so many ways to get there, and each child's road may be different. We need to be open and honest about how best to help each child get where they want to be.

I'll get off my soap box now


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## ihave7kids (Apr 21, 2012)

Oh, and to the person who mentioned not minding if the college teachers made good money from the tuition, you might like to know that most college professors are adjunct, meaning they teach one, two, or even three classes per semester without any job security or benefits of any kind. They only begin to make decent money when they become full professors as their full-time job. The likelihood of getting this kind of a position has gone down since Obamacare, as all colleges are trying to keep costs down by only hiring part-time employees so they don't have to provide benefits.

As an example, I used to teach 2 classes a semester at a local state college, making $1200 per class (this was 1999). When I added up how many hours of work, and subtracted the cost of gas and tolls, it turned out to be about $1.75 per hour!

My husband will teach his first class at a law school next semester, and he will actually loose money doing it!

The colleges are NOT giving the money to the teachers.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ihave7kids*
> 
> While he admits that he couldn't have gotten the job without a degree, he also says he learned very little in college or graduate school that helped him in his work.


I've heard this from a fairly large number of people over the years, mostly in the business world. I know we had an employee at one firm I worked for, who was hired straight out of university. He got hired at a salary of about $10K more than I was making (after about 12 years of related experience). He performed one task over and over and I commented to my manager (who had both a degree and years of experience) that I had to admit that I had no idea how to do the work he was doing. She said, "he couldn't do what you do, and I could teach you to do his job in a couple of hours". He had the degree, but he didn't really add any value to our company. (I'm not saying this is always the case, or that people don't work hard for their degrees. I just feel there's a whole belief system built around having a degree, and some of the assumptions underlying that system are faulty.)


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## crunchymama19 (Apr 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ihave7kids*
> 
> Oh, and to the person who mentioned not minding if the college teachers made good money from the tuition, you might like to know that most college professors are adjunct, meaning they teach one, two, or even three classes per semester without any job security or benefits of any kind. They only begin to make decent money when they become full professors as their full-time job. The likelihood of getting this kind of a position has gone down since Obamacare, as all colleges are trying to keep costs down by only hiring part-time employees so they don't have to provide benefits.
> 
> ...


Even most full-time professors are poorly paid. It is not until you reach tenure and then department head that you are making a handsome living. And that takes many many years and doesn't happen for most. And having been in R&D, a new professor will get a small amount of start-up money, but after that you are on your own. Research is mostly funded by government grants or other organizations (i.e. - American Heart Association, American Cancer Society, ect.). So the bulk of research is not paid for by the university at all. The university provides the building space and bears some operating and liability costs but that is about it.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I've heard this from a fairly large number of people over the years, mostly in the business world. I know we had an employee at one firm I worked for, who was hired straight out of university. He got hired at a salary of about $10K more than I was making (after about 12 years of related experience). He performed one task over and over and I commented to my manager (who had both a degree and years of experience) that I had to admit that I had no idea how to do the work he was doing. She said, "he couldn't do what you do, and I could teach you to do his job in a couple of hours". He had the degree, but he didn't really add any value to our company. (I'm not saying this is always the case, or that people don't work hard for their degrees. I just feel there's a whole belief system built around having a degree, and some of the assumptions underlying that system are faulty.)


Definitely a lot of this goes on. And it's crap. But those who opt out of getting the degree for these reasons are going to be disadvantaged in various ways, since this phenomenon sucks but is current reality. So many applicants have degrees that employers can afford to be choosy.


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## ocelotmom (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> I am at least "pushing" an associate's degree. The high schools in our area have a program where they will pay for kids to take classes at community college. I fully expect our children to participate.


I used to feel this way. Then I saw the effect than even old college grades can have when applying for competitive programs. I don't want them going to college until they are truly ready, academically and emotionally. Being willing and able to get great grades is, IMO, worth more than a cheap and early Associate's.

I'm not saying my kids aren't going to do dual-enrollment, just that I'll have to be reasonably sure they're ready, and they're going to have to do well in order to continue with it.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think that a lot of people have plans about what their children will do while in highschool or college, but in the end, if you are truly parenting your child has an individual rather than having a factory mentality to child rearing, they are going to show you what they want and what is best for them when the time comes.

Neither of my kids are doing what I had anticipated my offspring would be doing at this stage, but those thoughts and plans were for my theoretical children, not the actually people that I've come to know and love. They are both doing what is right for them right now.

Shouldn't that be the goal of APing? That we parent our kids as individuals? That we are still untune with them enough to help them figure out what path is best for them, with acceptance that everyone is different, and different paths are right for different people?


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## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ihave7kids*
> 
> This discussion is getting really interesting!
> 
> ...


Love that final statement.

It seems like there are so many multi-layered pro's and con's to the college experience presented in this thread that they all need to be included in the conversation with our children.

I agree with what many PP's have said, that if a child IS showing a strong inclination in a certain direction, one that clearly makes them feel happy and inspired, that's when it's our job to support them even if it's different from what we thought would be best. And that goes as well for folks who who had an awful college experience; maybe it will go better for your child.

There is also a whole separate conversation in here about why education, including its teachers, is so underfunded and exorbitantly expensive in this country.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> This is a privileged observation, that college isn't about the cost. For many if not most of us, cost is the bottom line. "Challenging" doesn't even begin to touch on the reality of tuition plus all the expenses that go with it.


 Just FYI, most of the Ivy-League schools will not charge tuition to families making less than $60k. (And some will throw in housing, as well.) At state schools, there are potential scholarships, loans, work-study programs, Pell grants, etc.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *A&A*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Yes, my statement was very general. There are some incredible opportunities for students out there. Still, cost is the bottom line for many of us. If, when all is said and done, we don't qualify for such a full ride (and in many instances it would have to be full ride, not partial, especially if students have to live out-of-state, or anywhere they can't live at home or with relatives), we are going to have to get creative if going to college is what our kids truly want.

In general, not necessarily in response to this post: I don't mean to imply in any of my posts that college is a waste-- far from it. College creates incredible opportunities. *As much as I wouldn't push college, I would also not actively discourage it, either.* It is one of many possibilities in life, and it is not inherently superior (or inferior) to other paths. But I would encourage it as a path when they have an idea what they want to do with such an education. Interests change, and that's just part of life, but in general, I would discourage college just for finding oneself, or discovering what you want to do (though that inevitably happens regardless). In some instances, college is a end in itself--especially for philosophical pursuits or other such academia, and that's OK, too. But, again, I say that college is just one possible path, different from but equal to others. "Equal to"-- how? Satisfaction with one's life, a sense of purpose in the world, self-worth, discovery, intellectual stimulation, financial solidity... I'm sure I can think of more if I waste more time on this contraption.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

We have an RESP for our children (we are in Canada).

It can be used for College, University, at Trade, etc. It may not provide all of the financial needs for their post-secondary training. Who knows what tuitions will be like in 15-20years. Anything else above that than they will be responsible for. Although I am not opposed to a loan from us parents.

I do hope that my children decide to become a professional in something. If they are going to work in construction, I hope they get a trade.

I don't care what my kids do. But I hope that what they choose makes them happy and provides them with enough money to feel secure, take care of themselves and their families and provide them with the life they want to live.


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## ocelotmom (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *redheather*
> 
> I agree with what many PP's have said, that if a child IS showing a strong inclination in a certain direction, one that clearly makes them feel happy and inspired, that's when it's our job to support them even if it's different from what we thought would be best. And that goes as well for folks who who had an awful college experience; maybe it will go better for your child.


You have to look at the whole kid.

I had a good plan in a field I was passionate about (and my eventual degree/career ended up being in something related that wasn't even on my radar at the time), where I'd volunteered regularly for several years. There was no reason, looking at my passion, to think that it was a bad plan. In addition, it was a career path that was flattering to my family and closest mentors, and I was going to a university that would make my school's graduation stats look good, so why would anyone discourage me from it?

If you looked at my inconsistent performance in high school (I got into an excellent university more based on test scores than stellar grades) and general levels of stress related to school, you might suggest that other alternatives are perfectly acceptable and don't preclude going to college at some later point.

I'm not trying to put blame on anyone outside myself for doing badly in college. This is all 20/20 hindsight. It just changes the way I look at things for my kids. I'm not going to work to prevent them from going to college if their mind is set on it, I'm just going to be sure they've explored their options in terms of choices other than college, which colleges they can go to, and what career/degree options are out there.


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## cmu204 (Mar 3, 2007)

I do
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ihave7kids*
> 
> Oh, and to the person who mentioned not minding if the college teachers made good money from the tuition, you might like to know that most college professors are adjunct, meaning they teach one, two, or even three classes per semester without any job security or benefits of any kind. They only begin to make decent money when they become full professors as their full-time job. The likelihood of getting this kind of a position has gone down since Obamacare, as all colleges are trying to keep costs down by only hiring part-time employees so they don't have to provide benefits.
> 
> ...


I don't believe Obamacare is the issue here -- as you've shown by your example from 1999, colleges have been exploiting adjuncts for a long time.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> In general, not necessarily in response to this post: I don't mean to imply in any of my posts that college is a waste-- far from it. College creates incredible opportunities. *As much as I wouldn't push college, I would also not actively discourage it, either.* It is one of many possibilities in life, and it is not inherently superior (or inferior) to other paths. But I would encourage it as a path when they have an idea what they want to do with such an education. Interests change, and that's just part of life, but in general, I would discourage college just for finding oneself, or discovering what you want to do (though that inevitably happens regardless). In some instances, college is a end in itself--especially for philosophical pursuits or other such academia, and that's OK, too. But, again, I say that college is just one possible path, different from but equal to others. "Equal to"-- how? Satisfaction with one's life, a sense of purpose in the world, self-worth, discovery, intellectual stimulation, financial solidity... I'm sure I can think of more if I waste more time on this contraption.


Similarly, I'm responding to the entire concept and not just this post:

I want my children to know about the *opportunity* of college. It sounds simplistic, but so many parents (including mine) never talked about college as an option. So, we take college tours. We actually plan vacations sometimes around what colleges we want to visit. (And yes, I realize that we are financially-privileged enough to do so.) Does that make me pushy? Maybe. Or maybe I'm just expanding their opportunities in life.

I think the graduation rate of the college one attends matters, too. Because I think the worst thing to do would be starting college, getting in debt for it, and not actually graduating.


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## pepperedmoth (Jun 14, 2013)

Quote:


> but back to medical school and other professional graduate degrees, seeing how things are playing out for my super bright DD, I seriously wonder if anyone who has what it takes to get into and complete professional school, NEEDS to get into debt for their undergraduate degree. If they aren't getting full rides, then why do the think they will get into professional school at the end?


Whoa. Because getting a free ride scholarship is VERY VERY RARE, and much more competitive than getting into professional school.

Many many MANY people have what it takes to get into professional school, but don't get offered a free ride to undergrad. Not all bright students get scholarships. There just aren't enough to go around. Glad your daughter is lucky, but that's not the way it works for everyone.

I went to professional school --- I'm a nurse practitioner --- but didn't get a free ride for my undergrad. Neither did almost any of my NP school classmates. I know a bajillion doctors, PAs, PTs, OTs, SLPs, and social workers all in the same boat.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I just have to put in a plug for small liberal arts colleges. The price tag looks high on paper, but there is often a lot of scholarship money waiting. If such a school really wants a bright student, they can find a lot of sources of funding. My best friend's sister got a full ride to a small liberal arts college (though she ended up transferring to another small liberal arts college because she had a terrible experience there, but I don't think that was necessarily related). She is certainly bright but I wouldn't say she's head and shoulders above the rest of us. I am told the way to play this is to apply to several different schools and see how much they offer you, and if you don't like the offer from your favorite, tell them you got a better offer someplace else (assuming this is true) and see if they come up with more money--though I admit I never tried this.

Also, our state university offers a full ride to anyone who meets certain (pretty stringent but not impossible) criteria. My sister qualified for this and had her tuition, room, board, and a stipend paid to attend undergrad. Other state schools may have something similar.

I guess with scholarships, you have to be willing to look around and see what is available different places. If you are set on one particular school that makes it more difficult. I'm not saying everyone can get a full ride, but there may be more options to go to college for cheap than people think there are.


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## ultrafighter (Feb 13, 2013)

I haven't read any of the replies yet, but my quick 2¢ while I'm here: our plan is to save up for our kids' future education. There are tons of options for that, and we're looking into those. But the money will be available for college *or* a trade school. If our kid ends up being mechanically inclined and wants to fix airplanes, more power to him/her. We're totally okay with that, and we want whatever funding we can give to help provide the necessary training for something like that even if it's not a traditional "college". We are vehemently anti-debt/anti-credit/anti-loan (with the only exception being a mortgage because that's just about a necessity these days for anyone wanting to actually own instead of rent), so whatever we can do to help make sure our kids don't end up with the student loan noose around their necks, we'll do.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

We will strongly encourage post-secondary education for our children. Even if they go into trade school or an apprenticeship that costs $$, and many are competitive and may actually require more work than a "traditional" college degree to be blunt. I'm most interested in making sure that the kids know how to fend for themselves financially and in a management sense, which you don't really get in postsecondary education but will serve you well in it.

What we advise our kids is going to largely depend on the individual child, and what the economy/job market looks like at the time when they're about ready to launch. Things can change rather quickly in relatively short periods of time, and we've got 8ish years before the first batch are there. In the meantime, we're saving money to help out with post secondary education, whatever path that takes.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Two of my children have already gone to college. (The middle one is currently attending Graduate School.) Both my husband and myself attended University as well. My husband and I came from a working class neighborhood where very few of the people we went to Grammar School and High School with went to college and fewer of their parents did. Few of these people were ever able to break out of the cycle of poverty most of their parents lived in and are still struggling hard every day as we speak. (few of the women had the luxury of staying home with their children, as they had to pitch in to pay the rent and buy food as soon as their children were born.)

Those few of us who went to college (and graduated, some of us with advanced degrees) are OUT of the old neighborhood, doing fairly well, or at least keeping our heads above water. I can't say the same for my classmates who wanted to "make money right away" or who were actively discouraged from going to college and who are now in their late 40 or early 50s... doing the same type of job they did in High School, making about the same money and hating every second of it. I'm worried about how they will fare when they retire. Of course many of their children don't attend college, continuing the cycle of poverty and lack of advanced education.

I LOVED University! (I made the mistake of applying to a University we could not have afforded and got accepted, but I did end up at a very well respected Jesuit Uni and got a fantastic education.) I love the buildings, the classes, going to seminars and lectures, I loved my work study job (working with autistic children in an on campus Day School) and even loved writing papers. I even liked taking tests in those old "Blue Books." I hated the academics at our High School, as I wasn't really learning anything, as they didn't expect much out of us in that neighborhood, I think. University offered me quite of bit of interesting and new knowledge and helped encourage my love of learning that I use every day. Both my husband and I have careers that we love and neither could have been done without at least a Bachelor's Degree. (He's an Electrical Engineer and I'm a Board Certified Lactation Consultant.)

Also, we were able to afford to move to a much safer neighborhood which offered our children much better Grammar Schools and High Schools and better prepared our children for both University and for life.

My father is a Uni professor, and my mother was a technical writer, so college was simply expected of me. It really wasn't discussed, it was just the process: You go to Grammar School, you go to High School, you go to University and hopefully you also go to Grad school. My children were raised similarly, college was the norm and they expected to go. The main difference of their lives from ours is that most of their friends also were expected to go to college so they had a lot of company on the way. I went to a University where I only saw 2 people from my High School, and I knew neither of them well.

My husband and I believe that even with the cost, a college education sets a young person up for a life of less struggle than going it alone with only a High School diploma. There are so many great jobs that require a college degree that are fun and also help bring in enough money (yes, it's a necessity) to raise one's family in a comfortable manner. We aren't rich, but I see how badly our friends from High School who didn't go to college struggle. Most of them are still living in rental places, only a few own homes, few have jobs they like and fewer have "careers," (there is a difference between a "job" and a "career" and it can make a huge difference in how people enjoy life) many many are divorced with children scattered to the wind (money problems are the Number One issue that causes divorce) and even though we are far from rich, we are also far from poor. Yes, we did struggle some when our first two children were born shortly after I finished my Bachelor's degree, but as time went on (and I got more education and more experience) and my husband moved up the ranks at his job, things did get quite a bit easier. We got stung during the economic disaster.... but not as badly as many of our High School friends, a few of them who could afford houses lost them in the economic decline. One friend just walked away from her home and her mortgage, ruining her credit for life, but not having any choice. She is working full time, making little money (not enough to pay the mortgage) the same job she had in High School, her husband (from whom she is "separated" yet he still lives with them) does not work, he likewise did not attend college, and is in his late 40s with no life plan. It's sad to see them and their children living this way. Very sad.

So, yes, our children ARE expected to go to college. It does make a difference in one's happiness of career as well as usually helps one avoid the worst of economic disasters. Of course, there were people with good degrees who did things like buy much much more house than they could afford, but those are unusual situations, in the long run, from my experience, families where both parents have earned University degrees and work in a good field tend to be happier, struggle less and want to pass that on to their children.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

I also think we can't look at how our parents lived their lives and try to base our children's lives on how things were when our (at least my dh's and my) parents started out in the 50s and 60s. My father didn't finish his BS or his Master's Degrees until I was a small child. He had gone to the Art Institute in Chicago, which "didn't believe in degrees" in the 50s and found that even with that schooling behind him couldn't get a decent job without a real degree. But, he was able to work his way through college while raising a family (something that would be out of the ordinary based on tuition rates in this day and age.)

My husband's father never even finished High School, (his mother did, but she never worked outside the house) but was able to get a good job as a fire fighter and ended up as Chief and then Fire Inspector, with two pensions, buying property in cash and plenty of money to pay for my dh's University education in cash. I can't see that happening today. Not at all. The economy and the nature of "work" has changed too much in the last 50 years.

I've just seen a lot of poverty and sadness connected to a lack of usable education to think otherwise. I agree with those who say that what one majors in is important. One of my best friends went to a very good private Uni, but majored in "Vocal Music." She enjoyed it well enough, in fact she had a great time in college, but it didn't set her up for a real workable job. Now, in her late 40s and a widow, (and helping to support her son... and his wife... and their baby) she's going back to get a second Bachelor's Degree in Education. It isn't easy for her at all.

I agree with those who are saying that getting an education in something usable is necessary. One might think one will be a SAHM for life or will actually get that job with the Opera, but sometimes the unthinkable happens, and it's always good to have a plan and a usable education. I think too many of us believed "Do what you love and the money will follow." That worked for some, but not all, especially if something someone "loves" doesn't translate into a real career that a family can live on.

(I guess it also depends on what you "Love." My career, as a Lactation Consultant, wasn't even invented when I went to University. But, being an IBCLC does require a Bachelor's Degree in a "related field" so my degree in Psychology with a concentration in Child Development was perfect to set me up for the Path. (there is an other path, but it's difficult to get all the extra CERPS and extra patient contact hours needed to sit for the Boards in the three years allotted. I do what I love, but I did have the educational back up and degrees and could have done something else with my education if Lactation hadn't become a workable career.)


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaggieLC*
> 
> I think too many of us believed "Do what you love and the money will follow."


Or, we can love what we do. I'm a call center representative. What 12 y.o. dreams of being a phone rep?? I'm having a ball, and I love that I'm helping people who really need help. And I'm making good money and have exceptionally good benefits. But I didn't plan for this. It just sort of happened.

I'm so literal minded, it seems like 'do what you love and the money will follow' is too much like faith healing. If you aren't financially successful it's because you don't love your job enough.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Or, we can love what we do. I'm a call center representative. What 12 y.o. dreams of being a phone rep?? I'm having a ball, and I love that I'm helping people who really need help. And I'm making good money and have exceptionally good benefits. But I didn't plan for this. It just sort of happened.
> 
> I'm so literal minded, it seems like 'do what you love and the money will follow' is too much like faith healing. If you aren't financially successful it's because you don't love your job enough.


You took one quote I made from two long complicated posts WAY out of context. Please read my two posts and mull them over and realize that I grew up in a neighborhood with a legacy of poverty with many of the families.

*You can "love" a job at a gas station or Walmart all you want, you are not going to make enough money at dead end jobs like this to be able to buy a home or even usually properly feed yourself or any children you might have. * IMO, usually only fortunate people get careers that both allow them enough income to live a life free from the specter of either starvation or homelessness. My friend, who I mentioned before, who majored in Vocal Music and now, at almost 50 is having to go back to school to get a second degree in Education LOVES her job at a Day Care Center. However, her pay is crap. Not only is she now a widow, (something most women in their 20s, 30s or 40s certainly don't expect!) and is paying a mortgage on a house which needs major repairs as well as helping out her just-out-of-his-teens son who is a father and a husband. Neither this boy nor his wife can AFFORD a job they love. They have to feed their baby and pay their rent and their car insurance and eventually buy health insurance (as at the moment, they have NONE.)

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but there are LOTS of jobs where the upper end ceiling of what you can make is still UNDER the poverty line. *You can love those jobs "enough" and still be food insecure and have nowhere safe to live.*

I've been an adult, in the real world for more than 30 years. It's great if you can find a career you love, but more often than not, that requires a GOOD education. I could never have become a Lactation Consultant without my Bachelor's Degree and then the Master's Certification the IBCLC earned me. My husband could NEVER have become a Senior Staff Engineer without a degree from a greatly regarded University in Engineering. Jobs that can allow you to live securely and well fed and in a place where you don't have to worry about being shot just going out to the store that don't require education are not common.

Coming from Immigrant Stock who struggled mightily, like my husband and I, and living in POOR working class neighborhoods and seeing the poverty my former Grammar School and High School classmates who didn't go to college live in has made an impression on me. NONE of them can afford to be Stay at Home Moms, few of them have enough food to get them through the month without outside help. It doesn't matter how much they "love" their jobs. How could it? That comment sounds like a statement from a very entitled point of view. "Well, if you just loved your minimum wage job at Walmart a little more, you and your baby wouldn't be on WIC and be running out of food by the end of the month and wouldn't be living in a one room apartment in a dangerous neighborhood. You just have to "love it" more." Do you honestly believe that?

When I was a child the people in our neighborhood all started with the same basic education, but my DH and I were fortunate enough to have parents who at least cared about our futures enough to help us with University so we would have a future free from food insecurity and free from homelessness . Plus, both of our jobs are fairly secure. I don't know what the security rate of call center representatives are, I have no idea. But, to say that people can't pay their bills or have enough money coming in to feed their children properly because they "don't love their jobs enough" is a gross simplification and misunderstanding of the causes of the cycle of poverty. Not to mention patently untrue.

I say this with all respect, but this isn't just about a single anecdote, but about millions of people who live below or around the poverty line, for many reasons, but a lack of education and lack of encouragement to get an education being one of the roots of this cycle of poverty.

I wish you would understand.


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## delightedbutterfly (Oct 5, 2006)

Regarding your post above MaggieLC, College can definitely help some, but I can say it's not the end all to the be all. There will always be other factors in play.

A hard work ethic, a desire to do more, a willingness to relocate or live within ones means.

Of course I feel "lucky" to live in Canada where I think College (or our equivalent University) isn't as pushed as widely. It still is pushed but I don't see most people as passionate.

I could be making a great wage doing the same job I did when I was in HS (that I love). A live able wage with benefits, flexible hours an the ability to buy a house. But I can also to choose to SAH. I have no long term University education (I went for four months). My husband went to Trades school and we moved to an area where it's more about your willingness to work hard and do more than your University education.

Certainly College/University can afford some a great life, but all it does to others is put them into massive debts holes that they can't climb out of. And there are so many jobless with large student debts with fancy degrees people that there has to be a happy medium!

And our WM also pays a decent wage and is having to raise wages in our area to find people to work. Could you buy a house on a one income WM wage in our area? Possibly (if you were willing to look at town houses/trailers)


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

honestly i feel there is lady luck involved with getting jobs and who do you know.

for some jobs a degree is just the first step in the door. there are many other steps that follow that has absolutely nothing to do with a degree.

imho, spoken from experience - unless you are in a v. specialised field, most jobs that hire you just coz u have a degree are soul sucking jobs. though of course i am that kind of person who just cant work somewhere just to pay bills.

i made good money using my degree and also NOT using my degree.

what i find is more important - to make money - is self marketing skills, inter/intrapersonal skills and your own common sense and smartness (i dont quite know how to say this, i dont mean to be prejudice) for that job. i have had jobs where i was terrible. my degree got me in the door but i just did not have the skills to play the game.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> Regarding your post above MaggieLC, College can definitely help some, but I can say it's not the end all to the be all. There will always be other factors in play.
> 
> ...


One can have a "hard work ethic, a desire to do more..." etc, but if you're working at Walmart, because that's all your education will allow you to get, and trying to support a family, chances are good you will not be able to keep your head above water.

Of course, in Canada, you don't have to worry about health insurance or medical debt. People in the USA often get into medical debt certainly without intending to, so I don't think going into debt because you were requiring surgery when you have no insurance is "living beyond your means." I didn't mean to leave out Canada and Europe, but people in the USA have challenges, because of our crappy health care system payer system that puts us at MORE risk of living in poverty due to debt that one didn't count on than people in more advanced Industrialized countries.


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## delightedbutterfly (Oct 5, 2006)

We have higher taxes here to offset the cost of health care and I not only pay a health benefits premium to the government but up until we got benefits recently though DH's job still had to pay out of pocket for many things health related. But yes We are truly blessed to have a social health care system that works.

It doesn't mean that we're a whole lot better off. And I do know many people who live in the states and still don't believe that College is the end all to the be all. Certainly it can help, but so can seeking the right opportunities if you have the drive to do so.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delightedbutterfly*
> 
> We have higher taxes here to offset the cost of health care and I not only pay a health benefits premium to the government but up until we got benefits recently though DH's job still had to pay out of pocket for many things health related. But yes We are truly blessed to have a social health care system that works.
> 
> It doesn't mean that we're a whole lot better off. And I do know many people who live in the states and still don't believe that College is the end all to the be all. Certainly it can help, but so can seeking the right opportunities if you have the drive to do so.


Of course, one can have earned a PhD and do nothing to gain employment, I understand that. I don't know if college is the end all and be all, but it's fairly well proven that people who get at least a Bachelor's Degree make an average of 1.5 million dollars over their working lifetimes than those who only have a High School Diploma. We all know anecdotes to the contrary, but these studies look at thousands of people in many different careers.

I would be afraid to send my children out into the world without at least a Bachelor's Degree, unless they had a well regarded Trade and training and that career looked promising as well as paid well. I've just seen too many people I grew up with struggle with food insecurity and poverty. Also I donate regularly to the Food Pantry in our community, I see poverty up close and personal, even in people with "drive" and who are working full time, doing the best they can without a complete education.

I don't know enough about the tax differences between Canada and the USA, but most Canadians seem to love their health care system. I wish we had Single Payer System here! I'd be happy with an increase in taxes. My husband and I have "full coverage" private insurance (Blue Cross) through my husband's employers, runs us several hundred dollars a month, plus a $1,500.00 deductible before they pay for ANYTHING, and we still have high meds copays (two of my prescriptions cost me $75.00 per month each, and I have 5 more regular prescriptions that cost between $35.00 and $10.00) and co-pays with every doctor's or ER visit. Plus, they can "deny" ER visits if the insurance company feels the trip wasn't "necessary." Not to mention the insurance won't touch any "alternative" health care, like chiropractic or acupuncture, herbal medicine, homeopathy etc and we never know when they are going to just randomly deny something.... not to mention "wait times."

I know a lot of Americans on the Far Right seem to complain (usually without knowing what they are talking about) that Canada's Health Care System "makes people wait for health care." I know we have American standard insurance and we waited TWO YEARS to get Occupational Therapy for out daughter, waited 6 months to see a Pediatric Neurologist, and my husband waited over a month for eye surgery. I don't think some of these people realize that Americans, many of us, also have to wait for health care, even on the old "free enterprise" system (which, in my opinion, doesn't benefit anybody except the Rich...) But, I guess that's a discussion for an other thread.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

I won't push. My husband hated doing his BA. And he is perfectly capable, not unintelligent and a really good writer. He just wasn't interested. It's his regret in life that he did not learn a trade and simply did as his parents expected. He wishes he were a carpenter or mechanic or a welder. He explores this things as hobbies now. He LOVES it when he makes something or fixes something and he can tangibly see and use what he has done. It provides immediate satisfaction.

Additionally, I come from a lower middle class blue-collar family. I have family and friends without college degrees who love their lives. And some of them make good money too. I have my Master's, am currently getting my Doctorate and I make less money than my friend who was trained as a hairdresser.

I love the idea of sending my kids to community college for all the general education classes. Some of the instructors in community college are superb. They are instructors only and not researchers. And they are also not newbie graduate student teaching assistants. My son, however, has high academic abilities and I bet he will be encouraged by the school district guidance counselors toward a more competitive university.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> They are instructors only and not researchers. And they are also not newbie graduate student teaching assistants.


Good point. I had not thought of that.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beru*
> I love the idea of sending my kids to community college for all the general education classes. Some of the instructors in community college are superb. They are instructors only and not researchers. And they are also not newbie graduate student teaching assistants. My son, however, has high academic abilities and I bet he will be encouraged by the school district guidance counselors toward a more competitive university.


I agree. But keep in mind a four year college that is not associated with a university should also result in the teachers being professors rather than grad students. That was something I looked at when I was applying to colleges back in the day. I ended up having one or two new teachers in my 4 years at a liberal arts college but not any TAs.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Some of the instructors at community college suck, though. At the one I went to, not every class got to evaluate their instructor. I know because my husband now teaches at that same community college. Only one class evaluates him each term and it is his highest-level class, whatever that might be. I got the distinct impression that some tenured instructors felt no compunction to act with any integrity towards their lower-level classes. I had a few good ones but some really awful ones, and the awful ones did some things that the professors at my liberal arts undergrad school would never, ever have pulled. And something like Ratemyprofessor.com isn't very helpful because you can find somebody who will complain about any instructor (the reviews of my husband basically boil down to "Oh, man, he expects us to do actual work! WHINE!") I stuck it out because I was going back for an advanced degree and was motivated and knew exactly what I wanted to do, but I'd be reluctant to inflict it on a new freshman. Though in our case we probably will encourage community college for our kids... but like I said, my husband teaches there, and he probably has or can get more insider knowledge on which instructors to avoid. Otherwise I would be careful.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

As far as the original question about college goes, is it possible to just keep all the options for education open? That is to say, for us to save money (to the best of our ability) and to try to get our children to learn as well as they can in every subject area and to explore every interest?

It just seems like it's hard to make a living without some kind of education or training. I am assuming college and pushing college--of course I am, I am also teaching college again. On the other hand, I would be delighted if my child had a skilled profession instead of a college education, provided that he really liked it, did it well, and made a living at it. My ex-husband's uncle (OK, now that's a weird relationship) did an MA in an academic subject and became an electrician when the work didn't come in the field he wanted. He likes his work, he does it well, and he makes a very good living.

Of course I'm oriented toward academics, but for my kid's future, I want him to have the education or training that suits him.

I guess I do want to prepare him for college and have everything lined up, but if he decides to be a welder or a plumber, I'm not going to cry. I just want him to do something cool that gives him steady work and uses at least some of his tremendous potential. There are a lot of jobs that would be good, and a lot of different kinds of education I could respect.


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