# Cesarean support circle III (moved from Finding Your Tribe)



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Let's pull up a chair here, shall we?

Whether you are recovering from a recent cesarean delivery, are planning one or are processing a past experience, this is a safe place for sharing support and information. I would ask that everyone here respect each other's unique path and keep this as a place for empowerment and healing. This is also a supportive place to celebrate your cesarean delivery if you've felt there's no other place to do so.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Treelove-how are you doing? Getting all of those last minute things done? 5 MORE DAYS!!!!

And how is everyone else doing that's planning a cesarean delivery?

Update for me-5 more days, feel calm and happy to finally meet Alena, enjoying the time I have left w/just dd, and closely watching Hurricane Isabel-hopefully my mother will be able to get here for our birth...


----------



## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

I am just writing here so I can be notified on the list. Good luck ladies with your babies coming soon.
Gossamer


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Me too!
I had my c/s 3 years ago and am still dealing w/the emotions of it.








I'd love to be part of this thread


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Ok, so I know all the reasons they say to VBAC is better. I don't want another c/s. My issue is, I'm trying to proces whether or not I'm wanting a vbac because it is "better" or to prove that I can do it.

It's been 16 months and I feel like I was cheated. I've pretty much gotten over it. But I hate the look you get when you say, Oh, I had a c/s. Ppl give you this pitiful look like, " Hmmm, well, some ppl just cant handle it"

It aggrivates me to no end. its like we try to do what we can as natural as we can and I couldn't do the most simplest of things!

Of course the circumstances were not the greatest and they weren't optimal. And they made me feel forced into something I wasn't forced into. Kwim?

I'm trying to see this as just a time of self doubt and that it will pass but it doesn't seem to be.... I think i started into baby blues and ppd before ds was born and I wonder if it is starting to happen again? I hope not...I didn't even realize I was experiencing ppd until over a year after ds was born...until I snapped out of it....


----------



## lilirose (Feb 19, 2003)

sorry, having to remove all posts with personal info due to an online stalker.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Thank you gossamer, good to see you here







. And hi Missgrl!









it's_our_family--I hope you keep talking and sorting things out for yourself.









lilirose--welcome, and thanks for sharing your story-I'm sorry you had to go through that







.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I go for my u/s today!! I'm excited about it but with Isabel looming over us I'm a little anxious at to where she will hit since as of now we are in direct line...we are on the coast in VA...

I'm wodnering if I have a fybroid. I have been having contractions too. Yyesterday I fianlly realized they were not bh. These were really low and wrapped around. They also grew in intensity. I'm hoping that everything is still nice and closed. I also have a head cold...YUCK!

So, I get to see my little one and I'm very excited!!!


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by its_our_family_
*Ok, so I know all the reasons they say to VBAC is better. I don't want another c/s. My issue is, I'm trying to proces whether or not I'm wanting a vbac because it is "better" or to prove that I can do it.

*
I so totally agree with this!
For those who don't know me, hi, I'm Hikaru, and my baby is due
mid-October. My 3 year old DS was born by cesarian and this one
may be too. The only thing that has gotten me through this pregnancy, not knowing how it's
going to turn out but having to accept that a repeat cesarian is a very real possibility....is reminding myself that this is NOT about my ego. It's about giving my baby the best and safest possible start in life. I don't at all say that the mother's feelings are unimportant. It's just that ultimately this is about the baby,
and the best interests of the baby have to come first.
Ladylee, this was a good place to move the thread. Lots of
new people will find us here.

Also I have a question...I was just wondering how many of us who have ended up with cesarians are petite? I'm 4 foot 10 and on the old thread someone mentioned her doctor said that a woman under 5 feet has only a 50% chance of giving birth vaginally. Personally I think that's silly. I live in Japan, Japanese women tend to be petite, and the cesarian rate is lower here than in the States. MY own MIL is smaller than me and she gave birth to DH who was over 9 pounds (4 kilos). And I know a couple of very big women (both American) who have had cesarians for tiny babies.
Anyway my theory is that size has little to do with how a birth will go.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

I can't take the credit-we owe thanks to Cynthia and other powers-that-be for creating the Birth forum as a place to house birth issues like cesarean deliveries. A portion of us don't quite fit in at the VBAC forum, and Finding Your Tribe isn't always easy to find








.

Yes, I also didn't feel the need to prove anything through birth. And that's not to say that everyone who chooses to have a vbac is making that an ego-based decision--everyone has their own journey.

it's_our_family-when I read through your thoughts about others judging your experience it made me remember how much of my healing process was about letting go of (my perception) of what others thought about me. And to sort out how much of that was actually my own projection. I make myself participate in my month's pregnancy thread-even though the talk is of everyone going into labor and having natural births, etc. etc. It's good for me to affirm myself and my individual situation in the presence of that activity, and not feel "less-than." Do you think people are really judging you? I really believe that when we feel judged by others it's actually us judging ourselves-maybe there's some truth to that for you?


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Hikaru, I got the same spiel from my doctor the first time around about being "small." DD was breech, and he was unwilling to try turning her because of my size and the fact that I hadn't birthed before.

I agree with you, though.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

LadyLee...you're brave. I'm in the same birth month thread as you and I've really downplayed the fact that I had a cesarian and may have another. I just don't think I can handle one more person telling me to "think positive" or that "OF COURSE I can have a VBAC".
I too have felt judged, or at least that my experience was discounted, even by Peggy O'mara! In response to an editorial
last year about how most cesarians are unnecessary I wrote to Mothering and said well, some are necessary in spite of our best efforts, and please don't
leave us out of the discussion. Her response was basically, "Oh but I wasn't talking about cases like yours". Very dismissive, although I doubt that's how she meant to sound.

Also, my prenatal yoga teacher(who by the way has no kids of her own) never spoke to me again after I called her and told her I'd ended up with a cesarian. I think she just didn't know how to deal with it...like somehow she had failed because one of her students hadn't been able to give birth naturally.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm glad you wrote that letter, regardless of the response, Hikaru. I think the natural parenting community as a whole could use quite a bit of sensitivity training on this subject-certainly your yoga teacher didn't know how to handle it.

So, how are you feeling-physically, emotionally? I remember you were trying to make arrangements for your son while you deliver--did everything work out? Are you happy with your doctor at this stage?


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Physically...can't sleep, can't breathe, gotta pee every 5 minutes. Same old same old.but getting by.

I thought we had it all worked out as DH is going to work from home while I'm in the hospital, and DS will go to his daycare every day during the month of October instead of just twice a week. I really think it's for the best as he'll have other kids to play with and it's a familiar place. Much more fun than sitting at home while I nurse the baby all day and yell at him for being too noisy....

Major stress...starting next week they'll be doing major painting
and repairs on our building, which will go on till the end of November. I am sooooo pissed, as I'll have to spend my last weeks of pregnancy breathing in paint fumes and listening to construction workers bang around all day. Then my baby will have to spend the first few weeks of his/her life in that environment, ugh. And during that time we won't be able to use the washing machine for two weeks which (temporarily)shoots to Hades any thoughts I had of using cloth diapers....grrrrrrr!


----------



## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Goody! I've had two sections and not really looking forward to another, but, hey, if I have to, I have to.

Hey, has anyone heard of a study that shows the psychological differences between c-section children and vaginal birth children????


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Our daughter Alena was born September 19th at 7:54 am--7 lbs 13 oz, 19.5 inches!!! We were in the hospital for two days and came home yesterday--we were able to nurse half an hour after delivery and overall, it was a very positive, beautiful, and joyous birth. She's doing wonderfully and I'm feeling good, as well.

I must say I'm annoyed by how this forum is set up without any mention of cesarean deliveries other than VBAC--it's very difficult for anyone who is unable to have a VBAC BUT IS STILL A NATURAL PARENT to find support. I suppose I can understand Mothering not wanting to mention the C word without a VBA before it--but I no longer feel particularly interested in supporting Mothering if that's the case. It has been repeatedly asked that there be a *clearly* identified place where we can find support, and I feel this issue has been swept under the rug over and over again.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Congratulations ladylee! Great news!!
And I totally agree with everything you said about cesarians being discounted by this forum. VBACS are great for those who can have them but it isn't possible for all of us and it's unfair that our experiences are discounted. Gee maybe we should start a yahoo group...just kidding, no time!
Anyway, hugs to you and Alena. Very glad to hear breastfeeding is going well.

Hikaru, still gestating away.....


----------



## wwhippetcrazy (Mar 3, 2002)

Congrats Ladylee!!!

Welcome Alena (love her name!!)

Jen

p.s. Right on!!


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Congrats Ladylee! Glad to hear about your birth!


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks for the congrats!! Alena is a sweet, sweet baby-we've all fallen in love.

Gee maybe we should start a yahoo group...just kidding, no time!-Hikaru

I know! I had the same thought, and arrived at the same conclusion of having no time! All the best to you & wishing you a wonderful birth Hikaru-it won't be much longer now!

PS-Welcome GoodWillHunter (my husband and I saw it on our first date







)-that is an interesting comparison & I've often wondered about it myself.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh, and when the anesthesia wore off I would have KILLED for one of those backscratcher thingies--I was lying there ITCHING all over for two days! Bless the nurses for scratching my back several times a day :LOL.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ladylee_
*Our daughter Alena was born September 19th at 7:54 am--7 lbs 13 oz, 19.5 inches!!! We were in the hospital for two days and came home yesterday--we were able to nurse half an hour after delivery and overall, it was a very positive, beautiful, and joyous birth. She's doing wonderfully and I'm feeling good, as well.

I must say I'm annoyed by how this forum is set up without any mention of cesarean deliveries other than VBAC--it's very difficult for anyone who is unable to have a VBAC BUT IS STILL A NATURAL PARENT to find support. I suppose I can understand Mothering not wanting to mention the C word without a VBA before it--but I no longer feel particularly interested in supporting Mothering if that's the case. It has been repeatedly asked that there be a *clearly* identified place where we can find support, and I feel this issue has been swept under the rug over and over again.







*
First let me say congratulations ladylee.







I'm so happy for you that all went well and your stay in hospital was a short one.

As for the issue of cesarean deliveries as a forum or subforum I apologize if I have responded in a manner that seemed to be a mere sweeping it under the rug. I will be straightforward. Mothering has never claimed to be everything for everyone and has no intention of trying to be. We cannot offer support for every single interest in the way of separate forums or subforums. We can and do encourage those who fall between the forums by way of title to start support threads for their needs.

To open a forum or subforum for cesarean section would, out of fairness, mean we should also open a forum for other interests such as formula feeding, disposable diapering, and religious circumcision (yes, we have received requests for these boards). That is simply not a direction that Mothering is intending to take. While Mothering has a defined main purpose and adheres to that, we try to make room for support and help in the things AP parents find themselves dealing with as a part of their own personal life choices and necessities for their families that don't really fall under the natural family living topics of Mothering's advocacy. That doesn't mean we can set up separate forums for whatever folks feel they need and we should. But it does mean that within the defined topics that make up Mothering we will try to make room for respectful discussions for things that aren't Mothering advocacy focused but are a reality of life for some Mothering parents.

Now that I've pulled that out from under the rug







let me explain the new setup. When the question-request arose in Questions and Suggestions to place a cesarean board I discussed the subject with the moderators and the resounding response was that there really isn't a general board to place any sort of birth discussion other than VBAC and Homebirth. I'm Pregnant gives the board a "pregnancy discussion" feel so birthing discussions, whether c-section or vaginal birth, seemed to have fallen betweeen the category cracks and were being placed here and there. That's why we decided to open Birth and Beyond. That forum is intended to host birth discussions of all sorts, including cesarean section. VBAC, Homebirth, and Birth Stories are intended to be subforums within the Birth and Beyond board. But because I'm having a setup problem with the board system in getting it to show subforums I had to place the VBAC, Homebirth, and Birth Stories titles as part of the Birth and Beyond title so they wouldn't disappear. So that's something I am working on correcting. The board is Birth and Beyond and will accomodate c-section discussion for those who need the info and support there. If I can get descriptions working again that will be reflected in the description.

If not having a separate board devoted to cesarean section will cause us to lose support of some of our members I'm very sorry to hear that. But I must say again that we can't be everything to everyone. We do try to make room for respectable discussion of cesarean section for those who need it and if anything inappropriate is being posted in such discussions it should be reported.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Congratulations Ladylee! It seems as if everything is going smoothly. Let us know how things are going with you and your new addition and the rest of family.

To all of you mamas who don't feel supported here: don't leave MDC.







You have my support and you are a resource of information for me. I also think that it is important for other natural parenting mamas to read your feelings, ideas, opinions...about c-sections.

I'd go on, but I need to get dressed. I don't think I can go out walking in just my underwear and the shirt I slept in. I should throw on some shoes at least.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Cynthia, thanks for the congratulations.

*The board is Birth and Beyond and will accomodate c-section discussion for those who need the info and support there. If I can get the descriptions working again that will be reflected in the title.*

The exclusion of cesarean deliveries in the title was exactly what I was objecting to--thanks for clarifying that it will be part of the Birth and Beyond description.







One more thing, and sorry to be a nudge, can we get rid of the word "section" and use "delivery" instead? Language is so powerful, I know I don't like to feel like I'm an orange being sectioned.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks MamaOui-for both the good wishes and the support







.

I have pictures! From my three year old daughter's perspective:

http://www.picturetrail.com/alenarane


----------



## TreeLove (Nov 20, 2001)

Adaline Mae arrived on Sept 13th at 8:05 am. She was a little earlier than planned but it was a great c-birth. I'll tell you more later.

She weighed 7.8 and was 19.5 " long. She is a wonderfully sweet baby.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Hi Treelove







So nice to hear from you








So a girl huh? So what's it like to have a little girl? I'm so happy
for you! Looking forward to hearing the birth story.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Sorry. I guess I'm out of check with what the appropriate terminology is. Will make a note to avoid use of the term "section".









Let me correct myself to say that it won't be placed as a part of the title but a apart of the description. The other boards will be removed from the title and each made a subforum within Birth and Beyond.


----------



## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

Congratulations Ladylee!

I must say Cynthia, that one difference between a c-section forum and circ and bottle feeding would be the fact that issues such as circ and bottle feeding tend to most often be a matter of choice (exept perhaps in cases where someone cannot breast feed), whereas a c-section is often something that happens to us dispite our wishes. In my case, I *tried* my best to avoid surgical delivery, despite cervical scarring and a spinal/pelvic deformity, I really, truely tried, and it is so hurtful when my births are not considered as worthy of mention as a v-back would be.

It just hurts that VBAC can be a part of the title, but Cesarean can't. Like my births aren't worthy of a mention, but those who have "succeded" at VBAC are.

Sorry if this may not seem quite clear. MDC can do what it wishes, I have no right to demand otherwise, but this does really hurt.









In any case, its not like someone would spend two days in pain trying not to circ, like I spent in labor trying to not be cut open.

DeAnna


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Cynthia, I understand what you're saying and I have no intention
of leaving thse boards (I get too much out of it and I LIKE to be a fly in the ointment







)
I totally agree with dlb, and this is the exact problem I had with
Peggy's response when I wrote to the magazine a year ago
(posted that story above in this thread).
I highly doubt that most of us here on this forum would have had an elective, scheduled cesarian for convenience. I for one went
through 34 hours of contractions, was still not dilated and my son wouldn't descend at all. I burst into tears when
I finally agreed to let the doctor do the cesarean. I felt like a failure and that feeling comes back when it is implied all cesarians are unnecessary.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Congratulations TreeLove


----------



## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Count me in on this thread! And congratulations, mamas of September babies - LadyLee and Treelove.

I've actually been watching this thread for awhile, not sure if I should contribute. You see, 9 weeks later, I feel like I've come to terms with the fact that my homebirth turned into a c-birth. Without going into the whole (loonnng) story here (I plan to post my account to Birth Stories at some point), I believe that my cesarian was necessary. I didn't feel like I was railroaded into anything - hospital, drugs, interventions - and believe I got good guidance the whole way through. I trust my midwife's judgement about transporting (not to mention my doula and also my sister, a nurse and mom of 5, who was also there), and I ended up in a hospital that is demonstrably supportive of going it the natural way. In fact, the OB who ended up operating on me was a friend of my midwife's and someone she really trusted - as I did by the end. (Long story short: We transported after over 12 hours of labor due to late decelerations. I was in a great deal of pain. At the hospital, it turned out that I was not dilated in the least. With pitocin I dilated, but stopped as soon as the drip was cut off (due to more late decels). Then, 42 hours into the labor, there was thick dark meconium.)

Anyway, the issue I am dealing with now is what my body did wrong, what *I* did "wrong." Why didn't I dilate at all? Since I didn't, why did it hurt so much the whole time? Had I forgotten everything I'd read and done in preparation for 10 months? Did I "give up" as soon as I got to the hospital (part of me says I did). You see, I made the conscious choice not to even consider a transport. I was so sure it wouldn't happen. I was so certain that my labor and my son's birth would play out beautifully at home - I was sooooo prepared: mentally, physically and spiritually. But I wasn't prepared for the hospital.

As a result, I had absolutely no game plan for laboring and delivering at the hospital. Even though I had the fantastic support of my midwife, my doula, my DP and my sister there - and later the best of OBs (and some great nurses - the first of whom had been a homebirth CNM in another state for 20 years before moving here, where she had been forced to choose between being a nurse and being a midwife) - I myself did not feel like I had my *own* support, if YKWIM. I myself asked for an epidural about 4 hours into the pitocin drip (and over 24 hours after labor had begun). Meanwhile, I had never even considered the prospect of drug interventions beforehand.

My experience afterwards could not have turned out better. Even though my DS ended up with pretty bad meconium aspiration and refused to nurse for more than 4 days, I *was* nursing for the first time as soon as I got into the recovery room (thanks to my mw). Bf'ing has been no problem ever since, and DS is now in the 90th or upwards percentile for everything.

So I'm torn: I feel grateful that we came out of everything OK. But I also feel disappointed in myself, that I "couldn't" do it. That, when people ask, I can't say "I had a homebirth/waterbirth." And: What will happen next time? If I couldn't do it under ideal conditions, how will I perform in my post-cesarean world?

Sorry for my wordiness....


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

(((melixxa))) , congtratulations on the birth of your child.
Your story sounds so similar to mine it's scary!
Sometimes, even when we set up all the "right" conditions
for a non-interventive birth, things go differently from how
we planned.
To paraphrase Janet Balaskas (mother of the active birth movement) , "all births are 'natural' births," even if some of us end up requiring medical help for the safety of ourselves and our babies.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

{{{{melixxa}}}}
I think all of us c/s mammas feel a tad of what you are saying!
I know I do and mine was 3 years ago and it was a matter of life
and death for my ds! That is why this Birth and Beyond forum was
created.....to offer support for moms that have birth and 'after'
birth related issues. No matter how much later the issues exist.
I think the "defeated" feel of having surgical births if perfectly
normal and difficult to understand for those moms that don't
have experience with it. Pregnancy and birth come so easy for some
and so hard for others...and it's hard to relate to the one that
doesn't correspond to you. KWIM?

I think Mothering and the community does a great job by
supporting all types of birthing/feeding and diapering etc. That's what
is so great about MDC and why we are all here and growing in
members. I think we will all benifit by having this forum and thread
so we can support each other with the different feelings we have.


----------



## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

~C~O~N~G~R~A~T~U~L~A~T~I~O~N~S~ Lee! Welcome to Alena! I'm very happy for you all! ....sorry about the itchies...ouchie. Congratulations again!

Leah


----------



## stirringleaf (Mar 16, 2002)

haikiru and ladylee (hope i spelled those right)

thanks for writing what you did above, about mamas who have birthed via cesarian, and are natural mamas, etc. i was glad you posted that. in a way, it made me feel less hard on myself for a myriad of things i wont blab on about right now...and i found the other posts about people assuming you should try to have a VBAC especially thought provoking. all and all i am glad i came back to this thread tonight because this discussion is very supportive in my opinion.

which leads me to also wanting to thank Cynthi Mosher for her post also....and i wanted to say that if it werent for these boards i dont know what i would have done after my c-section. i perspnally didnt need a specific C board, there were pletny of places for me to post questions like under health and healing, PPD, life with a babe, etc. I got a TON of help and support , which , in an internet kind of way helped me through the most difficult time of my life. i am in total deep appreciation of that! its nice that the boards are getting organised in new ways , so it is easier for someone too find stuff on any given topic, but i dont persoanlly think a specific board for every interest is needed, when we are all free to post questions, etc, on so many of the boards, and people will respond within our threads....and i cant imagine it being possible anyway...ibesides. if stuff got too catagorised there woud be less inter-mingling on the boards, because each board would be so specilised. KWIM?

ok this is off topic a bit, sorry


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

ladylee and treelove--CONGRATS!!! I'm glad everything went well for you! (btw--my baby sister turned 20 on the 19th!!!)

It seems I missed quite a bit...not sure I really want to chime in on it though...

I willsay to Hikaru that I have had that thought of "of course you can VBAC!" But I'mmnot saying do it if you arent comfortable. To me it is like parenting. We have to make an educatated decision on what we do with our births as well as our parenting.

As for calling c/s c/b........ I also have issues with this. Because when I was pg with ds I was so used to the idea f birthing my baby that I felt that my son was delivered...not birthed.... this is an issue I'm still working on....

My other thing is that I'm thinking about maybe becoming a doula as my kids get older. But i told dh I wasn't sure i ould do it in good conscience but he said I was being stupid. That jsut because I didn't push him out myself it didn't mean I didn't experience hard labor. I just didn't get anywhere and that my birthing experience was as valid as anyone elses! (I love my dh







)

I also think some c/b (







) are necessary! I think mine was. In my situation. Ds had no decels or anything. I was more of the concern. My ob was afraid I was too close to rupture to go on. One of things that has helped me accept how my experience unfolded is that without the medical intervention of a c/b that me and my son may have died. That 100 years ago we would have died.....


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Thank you for the congratulations, everyone! Congratulations Tree Love, can't wait to hear more from you, and welcome melixxa!

Can we open up a dialogue about where to house this thread? My personal feeling is that I do not want to be here in the Birth forum after all-for various reasons, and would prefer to be back in finding your tribe. I'd like to hear what others feel and see if anyone else would be interested in doing this, or if it matters to you at all.

dlb--I also feel the same way-thanks for writing what you did. This is why I would rather be back in Finding Your Tribe.

Have a great day everyone!


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ladylee_
*
Can we open up a dialogue about where to house this thread? My personal feeling is that I do not want to be here in the Birth forum after all-for various reasons, and would prefer to be back in finding your tribe. I'd like to hear what others feel and see if anyone else would be interested in doing this, or if it matters to you at all.

*
With all due respect, can I ask why you are feeling this way? Isn't this a main
reason we opened this forum?
Do you mind explaining your feelings a little more


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I honestly think this thread will serve its purpose more in this forum than any other. I think that those that are 'browsing" are more likely to come across support from c/b moms in birth and beyond forum than in finding your tribe.

I guess I see your point but I guess i don't see what the issue really is. I understand that VBAC isn't always an option and I think that maybe that it could be removed as a description for this forum... but lets face it...repeat c/b is in the minority. More and more are wanting vbac becasue more and more women are realizing their c/b were unnecessary and from mismanagement ...at least that is what I've come to understand.

I'm not sure what the point would be of moving the thread...I thought it was for support for women who have experienced c/b and anticipating a vbac as well as those that are planning a repeat. The point is to get support through what we've been through and issues that we face that those who had vag births don't. Or am I wrong?


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

I'd be happy to explain my position more. It's very simple-I do not feel cesarean births (by necessity) are being given fair representation in this forum and am feeling left out. I understand that Mothering is not here to be everything for everyone (I never asked it to be,) as it's so frequently said, but it is also my and other s' right to try and affect positive change for our circumstances and create the best environment for ourselves. If someone who has had a cesarean by necessity browses through the forums they see "Birth and Beyond:Subforums Homebirth, Birth Stories, VBAC." That's not exactly a green light to come on in and find support for their situation. And it seems it's being suggested that what's now being offered in the Birth and Beyond forum is ample enough for us. Even in the former I'm Pregnant forum setup a message would come up saying "cesarean births by necessity" when your cursor landed there. Unless something is wrong with my cursor, I see no such message on the Birth and Beyond forum. I'll go check that now, though.

I feel precisely the way dlb expressed-you can go back and read her observations to know how I feel.

I'm not trying to beat the proverbial horse--I'm interested in seeing if it matters at all to people, or not. If it doesn't matter, that's fine. I certainly want what's best for the group, but as an individual, this is something I'm having a very hard time getting around.

its our family--the VBAC forum exists for people to process their cesareans as they plan for their VBACs. Those of us who did not have VBACs made people uncomfortable in the forum when we discussed repeat cesareans. There was really no place for us, thus the creation of the thread in Finding Your Tribe. Certainly the intention of that group is to help anyone at any stage in their cesarean experience, but it is primarily the only place where those who don't have VBAC as an option can go for support.

I'm done!


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I understand about the VBAC forum...I felt the same way when I asked a question about why they decided to vbac...since I wrestling with my own decision and it was like..duh what else would you do....

As for the new forum...I don't think the subheadings apply to the whole reason for the forum. It is the same as the parenting issues has subheadings for multiples, working parents, and such...it doesn't mean to exclude ppl who aren't in that category. I think the forum as a whole is a very good idea. Those that are uncomfortable with the idea of repeat c/b need to just leave those threads alone out of respect for those in the thread.... but move the thread where you want.... I'll follow right along!







I just don't see what point it will make to move it.... but I guess there isn't necesaarily a point is it?

I've tried to use this new forum to ask ?? about repeat c/b but have not gotten much response.... it seems even those planning a repeat aren't touching the posts....

Quick question c/b scar related.....is baby mvm,nt more pronounced on the incision site? Just curious....


----------



## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

This might be







T but Congrats Ladylee! I've been wondering about how you're doing and how baby is doing. If you posted about it on the sept mamas board, i missed it (but that's not a surprise, as only half of my brain has been functioning lately...).


----------



## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

LadyLee, I think I understand your concerns totally. Ever since I ended up having a cesarean while trying for a homebirth, I haven't been sure where I 'belong.' I have been hesitant about posting in both Homebirth (thought I might spook people since I know *I* didn't want to hear any negatives beforehand) and VBAC (I am nowhere near the point of VBAC'ing since I just gave birth to my first only 2 1/2 months ago!). And yet I have wanted - and needed - to work through some of my c-related issues and questions. It seemed that Life with a Babe was the only place for me - and that is dedicated solely to issues surrounding the babes, not the moms....

I guess part of not knowing where to go here to voice some concerns ties in a bit too much with those feelings of having failed in some way by having a c-birth to begin with. As in 'I failed in this, and so Mothering no longer has a place for me.'

I have to say, though, that I don't like the idea of being moved back to Finding Your Tribe. The reason is that I never did *find* this thread there to begin with! The fact is that I think Finding Your Tribe is hard to find, hard to navigate. It never would have occured to me that such a thread as this would be there. A while back, I happened to read in another thread that a "cesarean support" thread existed in FYT and I went to look for it. And never did come across it!!

Anyway, I'm wondering if there isn't an easy compromise. Why can't the word Cesarean simply be added to the Birth and Beyond tagline? Of course, I do understand that the Mothering boards 'can't be all things to all people,' but this little subset is obviously representative of some of Mothering's audience. There are more than just a few of us. And that was an excellent point made here earlier that, while disposable diapering and circ'ing are choices and choices only, c-births are often forced on us.

Which is exactly why we need to process them.

I hope I'm making sense here. Feeling a bit sleep-deprived today....


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ladylee_
*Even in the former I'm Pregnant forum setup a message would come up saying "cesarean births by necessity" when your cursor landed there. Unless something is wrong with my cursor, I see no such message on the Birth and Beyond forum. I'll go check that now, though.

*
ladylee~None of the forums do that anymore! Cynthia had to remove that function in order to get the subforums to show up under their heading titles. Some quirk in VBulletin i think.

and thanks for the clarifying


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Why can't the word Cesarean simply be added to the Birth and Beyond tagline?-melixxa

This is what I've been asking about also, melixxa.

Missgrl-ok, thanks for telling me that.

Again, my concern is that people know where to find us.

Thank you, mamaley! I need to visit the September thread.

itsourfamily--I didn't notice any pronounced movement at the incision-I had three years between my first cesarean and this pregnancy.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I can insert a description for the Birth and Beyond board that would reflect the inclusion of cesarean and other birth related discussions. The subforums would then follw beneath that. Would that make you, ladylee and others with the same feelings, feel accepted and validated here in this forum? Or is this a deeper issue? When we had cesarean included in the description of I'm Pregnant there was still a move to the Tribe board for a separate thread so it seems to be a bit deeper than a mere description need.

This is something I'll be discussing with Peggy O when I speak to her soon.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Speaking as someone who has had a c/b and a VBAC, I can totally understand what ladylee, dlb, melixxa, etc...are trying to say. Even after a VBAC, I had c/b issues that I wanted to process and discuss and I didn't know where to do that here. Some of those issues were about my positive feelings I had with my c/b. I just wanted somewhere for support and not posts telling me why most c/b's are unnecessary or how I could avoid a c/b. I'm guilty of some of that here, because I thought that women posting in VBAC would be looking for alternative info.

But sometimes we just need support and we are lucky that MDC provides us with the forums to get the information we need to help us make informed choices (although it seems that most c/b mamas didn't choose their c/b's). Now that the Birth and Beyond section lacks a subcatergory for c/b mamas, I can understand why there feels like no place for these mamas to process, discuss, and yes, celebrate their births.

There are times when I feel like the scarlet letter should be C not A. There's all this guilt attached to it. Or the other end of the spectrum is there is so little thought put into c/b's that it's seen as no big deal to a lot of mainstream people. As an APing mama(and as a mama trying to be as natural as I can be), I felt that I had very little support in processing my c/b. I would have loved to find a board like this, with a c/b forum, to help me.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

I posted at the same time that you did Cynthia. Seeing the word cesarean would be a big help to mama's looking for support.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

You know... I never really thought about my feelings toward my c/b (have I mentioned how glad I am someone pointed this out! It makes me feel that the birth of my son was a lot less medical







) was realy bothering me. I knew when I firt came home i was upset about it. That I had failed but I brushed it off trying to encourage myself with thoughts of... "It was fort eh best" "At least Tracy is here and healthy" I know these are both true but I was using them as an excuse to not let lyself feel upset.

I do have positive thoughts of my labor and delivery of my son...even if it wasn't what I expected. It wasn't a horror story it was a beautiful story....

In fact...I'm going to add my unexpected wonderful c/b story to the birth stories forum.... I'm not ashamed of how my son was birthed or disappointed in myself. And I think that maybe writing his birth story so everyne can see it is a good step......


----------



## wwhippetcrazy (Mar 3, 2002)

I think that it would be nice to have the cesearian added....although I think cause I dont' post enough lately I don't really have the feeling of not belonging in the Birth and Beyond forum, regardless of the subheading (just my feelings)...I haven't had the time I want to browse the forums as much and maybe would feel differently if I did, as all I usually have time to do is reply and look at threads I get emails for kwim??

I don't know if maybe it's denial or just no real time to look at the issue, but I'm ok with my sections, although now just typing this I do get a feeling of "what if", so I guess it is more of a no time to look at it....that and we've had so many things happening since Yanic was born...between Evy, potty learning, trips home, dh's unhappiness at work and looking to move "home", the possibility of moving home and living with his parents for ?? months, and just the daily grind...I guess I haven't really dealt with it yet....on the other hand, I really believe that all things happen as they are suppose to, even if they don't make sense at the time, there is a reason...after all....all experiences make us who we are right now. and for the most part I like who I am (that would be the optimstic person in me) kwim??
I don't mean to down play anyone elses feelings at all! And I hope that I don't cause I do learn, and enjoy everyone on these boards and feel a sense of "belonging" with all of you in this thread especially, no matter where the thread is located.









Take care and talk soon,
Jen


----------



## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

The bottom line for me is that it hurts deeply when I see "v-bac" as a sub-forum, but not c-birth. I lived with condescending comments and attitudes regarding my births for years now, and the fact that somehow "finally doing it right" and "yes you can, yea you did" stories are considered deserving of a sub-forum, but c-births are not, and will risk being buried, is a continuation of that smug attitude.

But like I said, MDC can do what it wants. But I still wanted to express my pain. I wanted a v-bac so bad, even tried with a midwife at her home, and still ended up with a necessary transfer and then c-birth. If I could have, I would have changed things. I couldn't. But my births were still special, still an accomplishment, still births.

I know mdc can not be "all things to all people." But just a quick glance at this thread would show that we are a large segment of the birthing population, not just an obscure subset. And I would have to ask if somehow the politics behind being against intervention are being considered more important than our feelings.

It really hurts to feel like an outsider, because of something I couldn't change.

Sorry to vent, this is something I feel very strongly about, and have for nearly 16 years. It started when my first son was born, after a horrible, long labor during which he never even dropped, even after I did everything I could. My sil, who wasnt' there, who did not hear the comments from the hospital staff about how well I tolerated the labor, how very calm I was, that it was because I "just didn't relax enough." That kind of attitude is so prevalent in the natural parenting community, the very idea that anyone can birth naturally, if they only try. The smugness. The superiority. And the invalidation.

It just plain hurts, and I wanted to make that clear.

DeAnna


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

(((dlb)))
Ditto everything you said. Keep talking, we are here to support you.

Its-our-family wrote:

>>>>I willsay to Hikaru that I have had that thought of "of course you can VBAC!" But I'mmnot saying do it if you arent comfortable. To me it is like parenting. We have to make an educatated decision on what we do with our births as well as our parenting.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

What bothers me about that kind of comment is that, realistically, maybe I can VBAC maybe I can't. I was NOT going to even
entertain the possibility of a cesarian the first time, yet I ended up with one. If I am not realistic this time, if I were set on a VBAC and had to have a cesarian again, I'd feel even more like a failure than I did the first time. I am not being negative, I am just accepting the fact that I'll do my best but ultimately the safety of
my baby is what matters most. It isn't a matter of "comfort", it is
a matter of knowing that even under the best conditions this is not something I can control 100%.

I think putting cesarian as a subforum would be a validation of our
experience. As I said before I am not leaving these boards no
matter what, because I just get so much out of being here.
But it would be really nice to be acknowledged and included.

As for moving the thread, Ladylee, I understand your point of view but I think we are more obvious and will reach more Mamas if we stay here. It's worth a bit of discomfort to me to let people know..."We're here, we needed cesarians, we're AP,
Get used to it!" KWIM?

BTW, just for the heck of it I searched Yahoo Groups under "cesarian" and got nada. It seems like Mothering is still the
best place for us to get support! There really do seem to be a lot of us here.

Hikaru


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

" It's worth a bit of discomfort to me to let people know..."We're here, we needed cesarians, we're AP,
Get used to it!" KWIM? "

:LOL


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

dlb, I had a beautiful labor with my c/b and when I mention that to most other women IRL, it's like they just sort of tune out. I will always remember those days of contractions and hours of pushing fondly, as I was surrounded with wonderful support and I felt like a goddess. And the end of those days resulted with the arrival of an amazing human being. Quite a contrast from my VBAC experience, which is a whole other story, but the end result was still an amazing human being.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Agreed that more people will be able to find us here-staying in Birth and Beyond is fine with me. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Cynthia, I would also like to see some mention of Cesarean as a necessity in the forum heading.

I hope everyone shares their birth stories here!

Just wanted to mention-someone I know said something very helpful about the importance of taking ownership of one's birth-whether it be natural, medicated, or cesarean. And I think it's never too late to take ownership of our births and turn them into positive experiences.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MamaOui_
*..... but the end result was still an amazing human being.







*
That's all that really matters


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hikaru_
*
What bothers me about that kind of comment is that, realistically, maybe I can VBAC maybe I can't. I was NOT going to even
entertain the possibility of a cesarian the first time, yet I ended up with one. If I am not realistic this time, if I were set on a VBAC and had to have a cesarian again, I'd feel even more like a failure than I did the first time. I am not being negative, I am just accepting the fact that I'll do my best but ultimately the safety of
my baby is what matters most. It isn't a matter of "comfort", it is
a matter of knowing that even under the best conditions this is not something I can control 100%. /B]*
*
*
*
This is what I'm saying...sorry if it didn't seem that way. I've tried to get the "of course you can" attitude out of my head. I'm trying VBAC but am preparing myself for another c/b. I'm not sure how I'll feel though with another one.....

I have my birth story all typed I jsut have to move it over







*


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

here is my birth story...well, my sons birth story...but you know what I meant









http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=89346


----------



## TreeLove (Nov 20, 2001)

you guys rock! love this discussion


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

OT

MamaOui-just noticed what a beautiful name you've chosen-I like it a lot!


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

still OT: Thanks, ladylee. I really like the names of your dds. In fact, I named my friend's daughter Isabella a few years back.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Had to vent...my Mom(lives in Boston) just suggested on the phone that it might be easier if we just schedule a repeat cesarian because it would be easier for her and Dad to get plane tickets to Japan if she knew the date.
Grrrrrrr....no Mom this is not about your convenience.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Hikaru-- sorry









Ok, so last night I asked dh if he thought vbac-ing was "worth it". We will most likely be moving when I'm about 32 weeks and we will have to find an ob or mw that will let me vbac plus a doula (very important to me if I vbac). Not to mention I can't shake this feeling that I'll end up with a repeat anyway.

So, what I've been thinkin is maybe I can find an ob that will schedule me to do a repeat AFTER my edd, I was thinking about a week after. I would prefer to be in labor for a bit before the c/b because from what I hear/read it is better if the babe is in a bit of labor first.

I guess I'm just leting my pride make my decision not my brain or my heart. I think if I go in knowing about the c/b I'll come out not being upset with myself... or maybe I will... why is this so hard?


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

It so hard , if not impossible, to keep your pride out of it.
That's why I still feel like a failure deep down for having a cesarian the first time. And now that I get closer to my due date
I realize that I've been holding back emotionally from this baby, since I'm afraid that this birth will hurt me like the first one.
I want this baby very much but it's like I'm setting myself up to avoid feeling disappointed about the birth, so I'm remaining detached.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I have the same issue...


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

I'm not pg....but I share the same thoughts! I'm not planning on
anymore children for various reasons. ONe of them being that I
don't think I can emotionally manage another c/b. My c/b was a
classical cut so VBAC is not really an option.
Detatched if a very good term for what I would feel too!








How can we help it though?


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm afraid that this birth will hurt me like the first one.-Hikaru

It was the same for me during this pregnancy-at my last appointment before our birth my doctor asked me how I was feeling about the upcoming cesarean. And I didn't lie-I said how *furious* I was that I was denied a VBAC by the hospital & that I didn't want to go through with it. I talked to her a lot about refusing surgery as an option. I really let myself be angry because I knew I had to acknowledge the feelings or I would be completely blocked. The morning of the birth I made everyone wait for twenty minutes while I emotionally grounded myself.

The good news is, and this is just my experience, that I *didn't* feel hurt by the birth this time, as I did with dd #1. It was such a *completely* different experience-the doctors did a better job than the first ones did, my recovery was/is far less painful, and two weeks later I am feeling euphoric about dd 2's birth/presence in a way I never did with #1. I try not to analyze it all too much, but suffice to say I'm happy with how it went, how I feel, and can be rather philosophical about how I'm destined to give birth.

I think the biggest lesson for me has been ego-related--when you have cesarean births you must be your own cheerleader and support to a large extent. It's a very internal process of giving yourself approval and recognition where others may not. There's something very gratifying in that, almost like it makes the birth more personal, more mine in a way because not everyone understands what I went through. Overcoming the emotional challenges that cesarean births present is very life-altering-just as overcoming pain with natural delivery is, I imagine.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Ladylee, thanks for handing me a little cheese to go with last night's Whine. I was really feeling sorry for myself...
which I know I have to work through, but I also have to GET THE HECK OVER IT as I will be responsible for a new baby very soon,
a baby whom I want and am so looking forward to holding and loving. No matter yhow the birth goes it will not be the baby's fault. S/he deserves my full attention and unconditional love. I
went through that with DS...on some level I was angry at him for not cooperating in "my" birth experience.
At least with this baby I will be a bit more relaxed, more informed, and less focused on myself as I have an older child to come home to who also needs my attention.


----------



## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

I just wanted to mention to those who were looking for a place dedicated to discussion about cesareans, that ICAN (International Cesarean Awareness Network) has an e-mail list where you can get support on avoiding a c-section in the first place, recovering/healing from a section, preparing for VBAC and preparing to make necessary cesareans better experiences. The address for the list is http://www.ican-online.org/community/emailsupport.htm

I had an unnecessary c-section (I refuse to call it a cesarean birth, if you're happy calling it that, that's fine, but I don't feel that way) for my 2 year old son. I'm still not healed from it, physically or emotionally. I'm not sure that I ever will be.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

How are you Hikaru? I hope I didn't come across as negating your feelings--just felt moved to share that I also felt that way prior to the birth and was surprised to have felt differently during the birth. I also experienced a degree of resentment w/dd #1 as though she were responsible for "putting" me through all that. It's natural, isn't it? And I felt a small degree of resentment w/dd #2 as well. Fortunately, those feelings have passed. It's all so complex to sort out. I hope you're doing well with everything on all levels-mentally, physically, etc.

Welcome, Devaskyla. I see that you're new to Mothering-just wanted to mention there's also a VBAC forum here at MDC if you haven't discovered it already.









Week two of new motherhood, and I have to say that the universe has been making up for a lot of the emotional pain I experienced with my first birth. A lot of the loss, sadness, and anger I felt has been reconciled somehow. I look back on my first birth experience and have a lot of admiration for myself--I went through some very tough times (dealing with an open incision, breastfeeding challenges, a high-need infant) and I managed to perservere and overcome many problems and deal with the emotions. Things are much different w/dd#2 and everything feels effortless--I can truly appreciate what I went through the first time around.


----------



## vwmama (May 2, 2003)

I had a c- birth 3 weeks ago after 18 hours of unmedicated labor. After 5 1/2 hours of not dialating past 7-8 I agreed to a c-section. I was sleep deprived having begun labor at night and I couldn't stand the pain not to mention my 2 minute long contractions were causing the baby distress. It took them an hour more until they did the c- section and thank god when that spinal took effect I could have a minute without pain. I did have to have 2 spinals because the first one didn't work on my left side at all.

I am still questioning the whole thing, as I waited for the c- section I had to push with each contraction and I was never checked so I wonder if I had dialated more... I had tried different positions to help the baby but to no avail. His 15" head wasn't molded so they said he never made it into the birth canal and he ended up being 10lbs 13oz. I had gone to a chiroprator and had seen an acupuncturist to open my pelvis and to get the baby into the right position, but he was still posterior the whole labor.

I hated the pain and the problems and the lack of bonding with ds after the section. I can't believe people choose to do this... I am wishing I could try it again because so many people drilled into my head "your body won't make a baby you can't birth". HA! Mine did. It still makes me think I did something wrong, I didn't try hard enough, I made a wrong decision. The nurses thought I could keep laboring and not do the c-section. They weren't me, I was exhausted and could not keep going. I probably should have asked for an epidural to get some rest but I thought that would just lead to the c section so I went straight there instead. I thought I had resolved this but I guess not. I tried talking to dh about this and he doesn't want to discuss it at all.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

vwmama--first of all, congratulations on the birth of your little one-
I hope you're both doing well







.

"It still makes me think I did something wrong, I didn't try hard enough, I made a wrong decision. "

I felt this way for a long time as well-it's very hard when you're second guessing yourself, isn't it?

Thinking of you, and I hope it gets better day by day...


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

What else could you have done? You saw a chiro and an acupunturist. You tried different positions. You went 18 hours without meds trying to do this!

To me it sounds like you did plenty! And youa re right...the nurses aren't you. We all think back and say, what could I have done to make things different. Sometimes, it doesn't matter what we could have done. Your labor sounds a lot like mine. My son didn't have a molded head and was posterior the whole time. He never dropped...and he was little!

I'm not sure what makes us think that we can control everything in life. Yes, labor and birth is a natural thing. But even way back when before medical interventions and such there were women that STILL needed help! Animals birth beautifully. They remain calm and let nature do its thing but sometimes they STILL need help!

You did a beautiful thing. You and your dh created a little life. You worked hard to not be pressured by your OB in the end. You labored, giving your babe a beautiful start! You had a different ending in your birth than you anticipated but the overall result was still the same! You have a beautiful baby boy who you are going to raise in the most natural way possible! Think of how lucky your son is to have a mom like you!








T
But I wrote the above post to help vwmama feel better but I think I ended up writing my own pep talk. I feel like I'm finally starting to pinpoint why I'm hesitant to VBAC and how I really feel. I think I have spent the last 17 months trivializing how I feel and I'm tired of it!8 Its time for me to step up and embrace my sons birth and the things that have happened!

Anyway, vwmama...if you could make heads or tails of my post... Congrats on the babe!!!


----------



## TreeLove (Nov 20, 2001)

I wish I had more time to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to say (again) that it took me 5.5 years and 4 children to finally make peace with my classical c-birth and that all my babies are born by c-birth. I have stopped feeling sorry for myself (not that you ladies are doing that! Just MY personal exp.) and have accepted it. I had a WONDERFUL birth exp. with Addie Mae 3 weeks ago. I also had to make peace witht he fac that for some unknown reason (poss. insulin ressistance) my body does not make enough milk to sustain a baby. Not only is this my 4th c-birthed baby, but it is also my 4th bottlefed baby. It sucks, but that's just the way it is for me. I tried everything known to womankind to make milk for her, yet nothing happened. Weird, I know, but this is the THIRD time this has happened. (don't forget I had twins the first time, if yer doin' the math! LOL!) I just have had to stop comparing myself to others and know that I AM a wonderful mother. I have always done the VERY BEST I could for my lil darlin's. I'm ONLY speaking from my exp. None of this should be percieved as me telling you other mamas how to feel. One thing that made me put in all in perspective was my mw. She very gently told me that if I was going to ever get oer this I was going to have to get thicker skin. That yes, it sucked, but that I still have a wonderful baby (well, 4 wonderful babies), that the mamas that judge me were NOT there. They are Monday Morning Quaterbacking and that I don't OWE anyone a glimpse of my personal pain unless I want to give it to them. I don't have to justify to them all the hardwork and pain I have endured. I don't have to beg them to believe that I made the right decision. I OWN the decisions that I have made. Only I could make them with the information I had at the time. I finally feel NO GUILT.

I AM FREE TO ENJOY MY C-BIRTHS, AND MY BOTTLEFED BABIES!!!

HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!!!!!

I will pray for you mamas. I will pray that you find peace in whatever your decisions have been and whatever you choose to do in the future.

Remember your experinces make you who you are, that special mama that was chosen just right for that special babe you carried.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

To all of you mamas. A an extra hug to TreeLove, whom I know personally. You have one mama not judging you, TreeLove. If you ever need to talk, you know where to find me.


----------



## wwhippetcrazy (Mar 3, 2002)

Another







from me too....
and Congrats to the "new" mommas!!

It is hard to come to grips with c-sections sometimes, but all we can do is do the best for our babies, no matter how we do it....
When ever anyone whose just had a new babe asks me for advice, you know what I say....
"you need to do what works for you and your family and not worry about what everyone else is doing!!" It's hard at times trust me I know, but what could be more wonderful then a little babe no matter how they got here....

Take care all!!
vwmama







my babe was 10lbs 6 oz...and there was no way he was coming out any way but c-birth....enjoy your "little" one.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

When ppl found out I had a c/s they are shocked...not sure why though.

A friend of mine had a c/s in June and since no one else had had one I was the only one she had to ask questions. It might sound silly but I've found that my birth experience has actually become very useful. I've been able to share with more women about natural parenting,birthing, and c/b than I would have if I had had a v/b.

Am I the only one with that experience?


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Something I've been pondering lately is why some women need to hold cesarean births as something apart. For example, I participate in another parenting community which does a monthly newsletter. In the newsletter our birth was announced as "via c-section." Another woman who is expecting in October is also mentioned as "via c-section." Other women who also had babies weren't listed as having them "through their vagina"-why the need to make the cesarean ones stand out?


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I don't know...but I personally think it would be funny to see "through her vagina" all over the place! That just made me chuckle!


----------



## babydoll (Apr 30, 2003)

I started reading the first posts and started getting really upset about Cynthia Mosher's claim that C-section delivery should be in the same class as formula feeders or religious circumcision. Making the decision to feed formula and circ is a decision you make - not one that is made for you. In my eyes there are 2 ways to have a baby. vaginally and c-sec. I do not feel we have equal representation. I had to have a c-section if I wanted a healthy baby and a healthy me - not because I wanted my nether regions to remain tight (yeah someone actually said women get c-sections for this reason on another thread), not because I wanted a way longer recovery and a lot more pain. This might have been cleared up in later threads - I did not have time to read all of them. *SIGH*
I guess if you have never had a c-section you cannot appreciate the difference. *REALLY BIG SIGH*

Anyhoo...

The real reason I started reading this forum tonight is that at 13.5 months pp I have finally found a really good low ab exercise. I just started it yesterday and I am having incision pain that reminds me of the first few days - weeks postpartum. _ anybody have that? I am guessing it is my muscles in there somewhere.


----------



## TreeLove (Nov 20, 2001)

kinda OT, but wanting just mention that sometimes formula feeding is not a choice. I have tried to bf all 4 of my children and have never been able to make more than 3/4 of an ounce or so. I totally don't want to discuss this in here, I am just trying to spread awareness. The docs/mws/LCs can't figure out why I don't make enough milk, but I just don't. My babies become lethargic, juandiced, pass crytals, lose >12% body weight in 5 days, are bordrline hospitalization ( I can usu. talk my way out of that one!) etc. So please don't assume that all bottlefeeding moms make a choice to do so, sometimes it is only by necessity. I'm just saying this because many bfing AP moms see me in public and I get the cold shoulder, nasty looks and have even been chastized for not bf.

Okay, nuff said.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

{{{{Treelove....a wonderful mamma}}}}}}

babydoll~I don't think cynthia was trying to lump cbirth mammas with
ff and disposable diapers. I just think she was trying to give examples of all the forums ppl request and how it is not feasible to have a seperate forum for all. So the best thing for this situation was to have a Birth Forum (and beyond) that can encompass many, many birth issues and questions.
Please don't feel you don't have equal representation. I think this thread is fantastic and I already feel more powerful about my c/b story!


----------



## wwhippetcrazy (Mar 3, 2002)

Just wanted to second the "birth thru vagina" thing!
A much needed laugh!









Jen


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

So the best thing for this situation was to have a Birth Forum (and beyond) that can encompass many, many birth issues and questions.
Please don't feel you don't have equal representation.-Missgrl

I would have to say it's not possible to feel we're equally represented. It feels like we're given space as an offshoot. It's great to have the forum as a place for the many issues to be discussed, and I know Cynthia is taking our concerns into consideration, but what those of us who object object to (terrible phrasing, lol) is that those many birth issues that pertain to VBACs, Birth Stories, and Homebirth are given mention in the forum title. There's no mention of cesarean by necessity (as there was with the old system) and that's not equal representation. And as others have said, we are a large, active group here at MDC.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

i told my dh about the "through the vagine" thing...he about fell out of his chair!

The condesending looks and "oh"s that we get get to him too. He was there and he knows that we were misinformed and bullied.... it was too late on a friday night and the ob had a cocktail party to go to...or something...


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

A rather insensitive acquaintence said something similar to me-about my doctor having a round of golf to get to







:.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ladylee_
*
I would have to say it's not possible to feel we're equally represented. It feels like we're given space as an offshoot. It's great to have the forum as a place for the many issues to be discussed, and I know Cynthia is taking our concerns into consideration, but what those of us who object object to (terrible phrasing, lol) is that those many birth issues that pertain to VBACs, Birth Stories, and Homebirth are given mention in the forum title. There's no mention of cesarean by necessity (as there was with the old system) and that's not equal representation. And as others have said, we are a large, active group here at MDC.







*
Don't get me wrong.....I completely understand your viewpoint and not trying
to do any disagreeing (I know you're not either).....I'm just chatting!

The forum title which encompasses VBAC, hb and bstories, that you see on the main index page isn't actually the
'title'. Those are the subforums w/in the Birth and Beyond forum. To put C/B by neccesity in the 'title' would mean that it would be a subforum as well.
And since it's not an independent subforum....it's not on the index page.

I do know that cynthia is taking it all into consideration and doing some thinking. I agree that putting c/b somewhere would steer members in the right direction that are looking for support. Hopefully something can be worked out that will please all.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm just chatting!

Me too!









Hopefully something can be worked out that will please all.

And I appreciate that the decision makers are listening to these concerns-thanks!


----------



## KKmama (Dec 6, 2001)

I *soooooooooo* appreciate this discussion. And I'm so glad I found it, and yeah, I'd like it to be where it can be found.

My $ .02, even though I'm repeating some of what's already been said....

I took really great care of myself during my pregnancy with ds, and I *really* prepared myself for a drug-free vaginal birth. I had a very experienced midwife with a very low rate of c births. I also prepared myself for the possibility that things (any things) might not go the way I planned during my birth. I went 2 1/2 weeks late, and during that time, I did everything under the sun to try to get my labor going. Ds went into 2nd degree distress, and I finally had an emergency cesarean which I believe was medically necessary (and my midwife told me that ds wouldn't have made through labor, *if* we could have even gotten it going). Ds was fine, and I was relieved.

We are still nursing, 28 months later (and I am 10 wks pg). I do cloth diapers, co-sleep, we're vegetarians, we love the earth, yada yada yada.

What I really don't like is when there's a "crunchiness" contest (for lack of a better description) when someone tries to tell me that my cesarean wasn't necessary or that I somehow failed. I hate it! It's so rude! (And yes, it has happened to me on these boards--not this thread, though.) These people don't know the whole story, they haven't reviewed my medical records, and they certainly aren't thinking about my feelings. Yeah, there are a lot of cesareans--too many. Many *are* unnecessary. But who's qualified to decide that? And does it make women feel better to have this aimed against them? Does it do any good? It certainly doesn't preven't cesareans to rub women's noses in their "failures."

I want a safe place to talk about what happened and what my options are in this and future pregnancies. I don't want dogma shoved down my throat (as it has been on some VBAC threads), and I don't want to feel judged because I don't feel awful about my c birth and because I'm saying "I'll *try* for a VBAC this time" (because I am going to *try* and try hard, but realistically, it could happen again). I *do* understand that many women feel traumatized by their c births, and I want to be supportive of them.

I do feel like the baby is what really matters in the end; I'm glad that it was my *birth* that was disappointing, not my ds.

I'd like the word "cesarean" to be mentioned somewhere. I suggest something like "talking about cesareans", which is pretty neutral. Unfortunately, it would apply to a lot of women. And I think if Mothering does want to get women on the VBAC track, getting them to the point where there's a safe place to talk about their cesareans, what happened, what they wanted to have happen, what they'd like for the future, etc. would be a good start. At the *very* least, the VBAC threads could be more closely moderated.

For many women, a cesarean *is* a loss. There is a well-marked place for the discussion of miscarriage and still-birth. Can we have a safe place, too?

Kristine


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

welcome, Kristine-it's good to hear you...


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Hikaru-are you out there? I'm thinking of you!


----------



## mamasarah (May 28, 2002)

hi everyone,

i'm not going to get into details of my girl's birth right now, i just wanted to ask some questions.

dd is going on 15 mos, and before we even think (i've already thought!) of having another one, i want to really educate myself on repeat c-sec and vbac. i was wondering if someone could tell me how to get my medical records of the c-sec?

i usually feel like i'd want a vbac if i did it again, but sometimes i feel like i just couldn't bear another experience like the last. it really did a number on me! i would want a happy, beautiful birth, whether by c-sec or vbac. i just want to know how my midwife documented it so i can see it for myself...

well,







to all of you.

this is a great place for all of us to share our thoughts.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Hi mamasarah-all you have to do is call and ask for copies of your records. Some people charge for them.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

LOL!!! I come home from the hospital and you give me a great giggle...vagina, vagina, vagina.....just love that word!!

Now for my news.....I had a baby girl on October 7th and just got home from the hospital today Yes, I had a cesarian...here in Japan that means you stay in the hospital for at least a week.
I kind of panicked during the birth because they had trouble getting the spinal in and kept having to stick me again and again...but
other than that it had been soooooo much easier than my DS's birth mainly because I have more confidence, I didn't make myself
go through 34 hours of contractions before allowing them to do
the cesarian (twelve hours of dripping blood and amniotic fluid
was enough this time) and I didn't act macho about using painkillers afterwards, so I was able to really enjoy my little girl.
Nursed her on the delivery table and have been falling madly in love with her since!
Her name is Skye, she's big (8 and a half pounds and I'm only 4 foot 10), feeding well and sleeps a lot (unlike her 3 year old brother Satori who woke me up every 45 minutes when he was new...)

I type one-handed pretty well...so you'll be hearing more from me. If my posts have no capital letters or punctuation it's because I'm breastfeeding at the keyboard!
Blessings,

Hikaru


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Hikaru--I'm glad everything went well!! I'll have to remember what you said...not acting macho about using painkiller...


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

Congratulations Hikaru and welcome SKYE!!!























When I didn't see you around I figured you were off having a baby somewhere! I hope you're feeling well, and am glad everything is going so smoothly.

I could so relate--the first time around everything was so difficult, now thing s just seem to flow.

Take good care, Hikaru-speedy recovery to you!

and congrats to big brother!


----------



## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, I finally found you all, congrats to those of you who just had your babies









I posted in the FYT about my experiences, and how I will have all of my children via c-birth







(a new term for me)

I have been told by every OBGYN and midwife that my pelvis is "abnormal" and I would never birth a baby. When I got pregnant the first time, I decided there was no harm in trying to prove them wrong and my Ob was ok with that, but then she was breech, and my OB advised me that it was not such a great idea anymore, as her body could've made it out and her shoulders and head could've been stuck, so I agreed to c-birth, and I think that was the right choice ( by the time I had her she was shoulder presentation anyway, so it wasn't really a choice.

With my son, I decided to try VBAC but in the end he was too big, and I am "abnormal"







(-always knew that), so another c-birth.

Here I am planning #3.

Has anyone on here every known they would need a c-birth and chosen to go into labor first? I have decided to go into early labor then do the c-birth, I will not labor hard, as there is a risk of rupture which would only be worthwhile if there were any chance in he!! of the baby coming out that way, YK?

Anywho, I hate hearing about how "your body won't grow a baby you can't birth" and on religious boards I visit "God doesn't make women wrong". I wonder why people can't see by looking around them that people have all sorts of problems, some are born blind, others are born without legs, and on and on, why is it so hard to understand that some women are also born with pelvises that will not pass a baby through? Is that such an unbelievable concept? Seems logical to me that that would happen, although rare, as are the other thigns I mentioned. (same goes for BFing, treelove, I totally can see that there has to be some cases, or medical conditions where one would not be able to BF)

On the topic of Mothering making a place for us that was easy to find, I don't expect it, I wish it would happen, but I don't expect it, that way I won't be disappointed, and I get so much here otherwise that it is still worth coming.

Well, I think that's about it, but I would like to hear people's thoughts on my going into early labor (I live 5 minutes from the very major hospital I am delivering at), my only concern (beyond who will be with my kids when I go in if unexpectedly) is that I may not get my OB to deliver if I go this way, I may end up with whomever is on at that time







:

Also, any thoughts on how to make a c-birth the best it can be?


----------



## mamasarah (May 28, 2002)

thanks ladylee for that info on the hospital records.

i just wanted to say CONGRATS! to Hikaru. what a wonderful experience it sounds like you had. very inspirational








enjoy your new peanut!


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

JESS----If I were to c/b again I would insist on going into labor first! I talked to dh about it and he agreed. I think it is a good idea. That way you know baby is ready and you still get the excitement of...THIS IS IT!!!


----------



## wwhippetcrazy (Mar 3, 2002)

Welcome Skye!! I'm glad that things went well!!









JESS~~I agree that it is a good idea to labour first if you can....that was my biggest concern when I was presented with having a sheduled section since I was over due...I wanted to go into labour first to know that he was "ready"

Take care all,
Jen


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

I too insisted on waiting until the labor started . Unless I had a medical condition that prevented it, I think it's important for m baby to tell me when she's ready to be born.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

It was medicaly necessary for me to c/s at 36 weeks due to my extreme placenta previa. The docs 'swore' ds would be 'ready' by that time and all would be fine. Turns out his lungs weren't developed and he had to spend 7 days in NICU








In hyndsight.....I should have insisted I be hospitalized so just in case I
went into labor I would be there and be in surgery within minutes.


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Missgrl_
*In hyndsight.....I should have insisted I be hospitalized so just in case I
went into labor I would be there and be in surgery within minutes.*
(((Missgrl))) I empathize with you....
I spent so much time "should-ing" myself after DS was born,
and it just added to my feeling of having failed.
This time, I was determined when I went to the hospital that,
no matter what happened I would have no regrets as long as I ended up with a healthy baby.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

With dd#1 I had been in labor all night. With dd#2, it was against policy to wait for labor to start-my doctor and I scheduled the date three days prior to my due date, which is much better than the 2 week or 1 week prior of other hospitals.

With dd#2 I felt very comfortable with this-it was her time.


----------



## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Can we talk pain meds please? I had darvaset (I know I'm spelling that wrong) with both of mine, 2 pills every 4 hours. With dd I took it for 2 weeks, and with ds for one week-I still was in a lot of pain, but he was jaundiced and I needed him to wake up and eat more.

The Dr.s claim that darvaset does not make the baby sleepy, but it definitely did with my 2, I have no doubt about that, and it interferred with their nursing that they slept so much, however- it was great for the pain, really great. (also the dose I was given in actually an overdose of tylenol-pointed out by my nurse mother and my pharmacist friend, although the pharmacy filled it







: )

So, what's a mama to do? Has anyone used any other pain med folloing their c-section that worked well, and didn't make the nursing baby sleepy?

I was thinking of trying an ibuprofen this time, and if it's not really as effective(for the pain), I could alternate between that and the darvaset. I don't know, I want the baby to nurse well and not sleep a crazy amount, but I do not want to be in a ton of pain either.

Thoughts?


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I was given ibuprofen and percocet. I took the percocet 2x in the hospital and maybe one dose when I got home. I didn't get the prescription filled for a week but I over did it one night and needed the extra. Other than that I took the ibuprofen a couple times but was pretty much pain free, but I think my incision was numb for about a month...which was fine by me!


----------



## stirringleaf (Mar 16, 2002)

i had perkoset, lortab and ibuprofen.

i took the perkoset and lortab in the hospital ...i think they were alternating them with me BUT i opted for the lowest dose ( one pill) rather than the higher dose (2 pills) cuz i was worried about ds. i also refused morphine post op.

i think this was a mistake. i was in a tremendous amount of pain and i know i would have healed (especially emotionally ) faster had my pain been less. i was exhausted from enduring pain and could barely function.

When i did up my dose, i could finally walk, but i had huge side effects of dizziness and feeling really stoned when i was on these drugs. i hated it. i think after a week i went on just Ibuprofen , 3 of them each dose, and took lortab when i was having an especially hard time with the pain.

so it seems either way there are pros and cons.

the baby WAS sleepy, but he was awake, and nursed really well.

hope this helps...

about not having regrets, someone above said "as long as they have a healthy baby" they wouldnt regret. i know what you meant, but remember that there are mamas out there who lose thier babies, and i really think those mamas did everything possivble that they should not feel personally responsible either. we all do the very best we can in these situations, hindsight is 20/20, and life is so difficult, you know? i know you didnt mean if you lost your baby or had an unhealthy one you would be more responsible for the outcome, but i just wanted to point that out...


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by stirringleaf_
*
about not having regrets, someone above said "as long as they have a healthy baby" they wouldnt regret. i know what you meant, but remember that there are mamas out there who lose thier babies, and i really think those mamas did everything possivble that they should not feel personally responsible either. we all do the very best we can in these situations, hindsight is 20/20, and life is so difficult, you know? i know you didnt mean if you lost your baby or had an unhealthy one you would be more responsible for the outcome, but i just wanted to point that out...*
I'm the one who made the original comment and I totally agree with what youre saying. I didn't mean it to sound the way it did and I'm sorry. Thanks for pointing that out.
I've had three miscarriages (not the same as losing a full-term baby I know..I can't even imagine how painful that must be)
and you're right. A mother does NOT need to be
made to feel guilty. We didn't tell my MIL about the miscarriages because we just knew her reaction would be to ask what I had done "wrong" to cause me to lose the babies.

Birth is one of those things that isn't ultimately under our control.
WE set up the best conditions, we can and should be actively involved in the process, but even then we can't guarantee any particular type of outcome.


----------



## ladylee (Nov 20, 2001)

11 pages-ya'll ready for a new thread?









http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=92819


----------

