# planned homebirth end up @ the hospital?



## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

hi all~
I was just wondering if anybody wants to discuss their feelings about their homebirth that wasn't. I was very excited for my homebirth, but we ended up in the hospital & although I avoided drugs, I am still dissatisfied about some of the events. I wished for a gentle birth & that is not what I got. I also still question in my mind the reason my midwife suggested we transfer. I'm tired of 2nd guessing myself & would like to come to an understanding & acceptance of what happened, good & bad.
Hoping this new forum will be a good place for this~
blessings, Maria


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I would I would! NAK though...

I'm really bummed I ended up in the hospital. I know its not my "fault", but I still feel like I've failed. I feel like I failed even further because I ended up w/ an epidural.

I'll come back to speak more when I can.


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

PAK (playing on my lap)








Hi Lisa Lynn, sometimes I feel I have so much to say about this that if I start typing, I will never be able to stop! There are so many issues & overlapping concerns in my head, it is very overwhelming.

Quote:

I wished for a gentle birth & that is not what I got.
I should have said, that a gentle birth is not what my DS got, & ABOUT THAT I FEEL WORSE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. Being he is my 1st, I just never could have understood how all this was *his* experience, too- not just mine. KWIM? My biggest complaint or regret about our experience is how we had no privacy @ the moment of his birth. Just a few *little* things took what should have been a precious event away from us. I don't know, privacy isn't even what I mean. They (the medical staff) didn't put him on my belly & I didn't see him or touch him right when he 1st came out. I had him about 5 (? maybe less) minutes later & he never left the room, no shots or anything done to him, but he was all wrapped up & it just seems that I missed something so precious & important. Don't know how to get over that. Put it behind me? Re-imagine it? Anyway, sometimes it seems like such a minor thing & that I am making a mountain out of a molehill, ya know? Other times I have seriuos grief about it that I cannot deny & I wonder if it has impacted us & our bonding, breastfeeding, etc.

Anyway, enough from me, I know there are others out there who have been/are going thru dissappointment of some kind about their birthing experience & I really hope that talking about it helps.
blessings, maria


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm there with y'all.
I planned a homebirth, but decided to transfer to the hospital about 15 hours into active labor (I had been having prodromal labor for weeks, but that's another post). I was tired---I had only slept 6 hours in the previous two days---and was disheartened because I wasn't progressing. My MW was supportive, so I decided to go to the hospital. I went there, got an IV (turns out I was pretty dehydrated) and some nubain. Tristan was in my arms within four hours.
The actual birth was unmedicated (nubain wears off quickly), but I feel like I let myself and ds down. It's been almost a year and I'm still processing my feelings. I think one reason I'm anxious to have another baby is to have a chance to do birth "right".


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

Quote:

I think one reason I'm anxious to have another baby is to have a chance to do birth "right".
Ditto, except we are about 90% sure we aren't going to try for another one, money, infertility issues, age, etc. I still keep thinking "next time" whenever I process this, whenever I think "what did I learn?" But it doesn't look like I'll get to use it.

We went to the hopsital bcz of meconium stained amniotic fluid. My water broke 1st & my labor was progressing along really well, but my MW said it was the darkest staining she'd ever seen. At the time it seemed like the right thing to do. BUt now I wish wish wish I would have been stronger/more confident to stay home. I really 2nd guess my MW too. Why wasn't she more committed to a homebirth with me? Why didn't I pick a DE MW instead of a CPM? etc, etc. I almost think she wanted me inthe hospital to get the IV for GBS that she was going to give me at home, but she was having trouble getting the IV started. But that is way paranoid, would she really do that to me? I get sick & tired of that kind of ruminating & trying to find someone other than myself to blame. I'm so tired of the "whatif" game!
gotta run!


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

oh Lisa Lynn! I didn't see till now that little Orion is only a week old! Congrats congrats congrats!!! I want you to be very very proud of yourself & Orion & never feel like you failed! But I know how it feels to 2nd guess & blame yourself. I just wish Natural birth wasn't such a minefield for us mommas! Glad there are people here who are willing to talk about it. I remeber back when griffin was 1 week old, what a blessing! Your guy is adorable!


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I am still very depressed about my failed VBAC homebirth. my son was an emergency c-section, no labour at all. I had eclampsia and almost died so there was no question I needed that intervention. With my daughter I laboured at home for 25 hours. I was only at 5 and was in excruciating pain (my contractions only had 2 minutes between them and lasted 8-10 minutes in length!) so i went to the hospital for an epidural. Well within 10 minutes of the epidural my baby went into fetal distress and we ended up with an emergency c-section. I am still having a very hard time coping with this. MY weakness almost led to my child's death. I spend hours thinking about how if I just hadn't gotten that damn epidural. I want to try a homebirth again with my 3rd (want to ttc in 2005) but the midwives say no way. The only thing I've come up with now is TELL them I'm going to go to the hospital but that I'll labour at home as long as possible. Then if things are going fine I'll just tell them I'm not going. What can they do to me?


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## EarthWind (Nov 20, 2001)

Hello everyone! I don't post that often but this thread caught my attention.
I'm right there with you women! My son is now 3yo, and I finally now feel like I am getting somewhere on the healing path - but it has been a long haul. I had some serious depression only recently and realized it was time to go back to my therapist. It was very helpful and I can't recommend it enough. I also spent a whole lot of time processing the birth experience. I started studying midwifery to gain a better understanding of my son's birth and my birth as a mother, did shamanic work to understand and heal from the "why me" of it all, and many other paths. I would say that all of the work I have done has really helped me in my healing journey. My most recent foray was in a childbirth educator training I did a couple of weeks ago. It was with Birthworks (which I cannot recommend highly enough) and in the training we learned a lot about how to facilitate women to find their own way through their birth. Also one of the childbirth classes for parents is about grief and loss. I was a 'guinnea pig' for a grief and healing visualization and it was truly amazing. There are definitely people who are out there doing the work around healing from difficult birth experiences so I would highly encourage anyone who is still suffering and grieving from their birth experience to seek out help. My son is three and I can hardly believe that I'm still on this healing path. But it has certainly been an initiation, that's for sure. And it's absolutely been transformational. Hang in there women! Stay on the healing path - experience the grief and loss and see if therein lies a gem. It's really hard to find the beauty in such a traumatic, unwished for experience, but it's there, somewhere. Sometimes the beauty finds us. But in my experience, it is a cyclical process. I don't know if I will ever truly not have the scar in my psyche from my son's birth, but I know that scars are actually quite strong.

Be very kind to yourselves, you lovely women. Love is the key. (I know, sounds trite, but I like to think of love (the love I learn to have for myself) as the salve for my wounds.)

I don't know if this is at all relevant, but all of your voices spoke to me - because I've been there and visit those difficult emotional places often.

Peace and love to all of you,

Michelle


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## Kerlowyn (Mar 15, 2002)

So, I edited a very, very long story to this: Began labor on a Tuesday morning at home, went to the hospital Friday morning to get Pit to stay in labor. At 4:00 PM all of the residents on the maternity floor went home for the weekend with no one checking to see if there was some one who would be delivering! So, the Head Nurse in OB came and shut off my pit! And my labor stopped!!!








So, they called the on call OB to come in (he came 3 hours later), he was a nasty old man who examined me, grabbed the baby's head and completed his head rotation without telling me (the pain!







) then threatened me with a CS if I did not have the baby in half an hour! I screamed at him, got very scared, told them to crank up the pit and had my baby in half an hour, 9:30PM Friday night. Thank the gods the OB was not there, it was just the MWs, my mom and DS's father. Later, the OB had the nerve to tell the MWs "see, I knew I could get that baby out in half an hour" and I heard him say it!








So, about my feelings, because that is what you asked...at first I was both so, so angry at the hospital and at that awful OB, and at the same time overwhelmed with the love for my new baby. I did not feel like I had failed, in fact I felt very empowered about having labored 4 days with out pain meds. I think the thing that hurt the most is that I used anger and spitefulness to birth my baby (I'll show that OB) instead of love and peacefulness. KWIM? But the MWs, at the time of the actual pushing/birthing surrounded me with peace and love, and when DS actually arrived it was a blessed time and for that moment it was all worth it.
After, it did take months and months to get over the feelings of anger, guilt and sadness, but when I felt bad, DS would make me see how worth it it all was.
My next baby was born in a hospital. I realized for me, it was WHO I gave birth with rather than where. I love the midwifery practice I go to (they were the back ups for the lay MWs I used for my HB). Ironically, my next baby was born 45 minutes after getting to the hospital, 4 hours total labor. I still did not get my peaceful birth (I screamed like a wild animal!







ild) but I did get the birth I wanted...no meds or any interventions.

Give yourself time to feel, and enjoy yur child. More than anything, time and my DS helped the most.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, I never even got to try it at home. I was discharged from my midwife's care at 36 weeks due to GBS. I went into labor at 38 weeks and delivered in the hospital with the abx, which was the single most horrible part of the whole experience. I managed to avoid drugs, and dd and I were never separated, but it was less than ideal. I let them break my water, thinking it was a harmless intervention, and everything went downhill from there. I ended up with forceps after pushing for 4 hours when I never felt an urge to push. DD was born will all kinds of bruises from them. For nearly a year afterward, I was convinced that the hospital was the way to go and I would just go there in the future and not try the homebirth again. But I started to get suspicious, and asked around, and found out the midwife I was seeing actually does do home treatments for GBS. Other midwives, when hearing this and not knowing it was her, have referred me to her. They all say it is very strange and was no reason to go to the hospital.

I don't know what it could have been; maybe she just didn't like me. But this time I am going to do it at home and make it clear that if I am discharged from care, I want to be referred to another midwife. I'm too scared to even go to the OB office, or my regular doctor, for anything because I'm afraid I will get talked into the hospital again. There are only 4 midwives in my area; 3 are actually out of town and travel. I really hope one of them works out and I don't end up having to call the first one and convince her to take me on again.

I have a lot of doubts, and dh doesn't understand. He thought I was fine with the hospital and I explained that I was at the time, but now I know better. Also, I was so out of my mind with pain and exhaustion that I really don't remember much about being there. He says he thought the doctor did a good job, and that a healthy baby is the most important. Yeah, but the mother's experience matters too. I'm sure the doctor was skilled at forceps use - how else could I have ended up with an intact perineum in spite of everything that was done? - but I don't think it really had to be done in the first place. We had a doula, which did help some, but she was a nurse so had never seen a natural birth. She never told me to change positions or anything to avoid all the interventions.

So I really feel a need to get it right...


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

oh, my maude - Greaseball, I just saw your tagline! Congrats!







I know that things will be different for you this time - you deserve to have a healthy, safe, empowering and beautiful birth.


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## nutmeggmama (Aug 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*Well within 10 minutes of the epidural my baby went into fetal distress and we ended up with an emergency c-section. I am still having a very hard time coping with this. MY weakness almost led to my child's death. I spend hours thinking about how if I just hadn't gotten that damn epidural.*
(((Shawna))) No that I am endorsing epidurals as a rule, but my first thought when I started reading that was "how amazing that she knew her body/baby well enough to go to the hospital, get the epi in time for the emergency C-section. I never ever would have read that *your* weakness would have anything to do without seeing it later in the paragraph. If it was the epi causing the distress, they could have turned it off. Instead you were able to avoid the general aneth. Healing hugs sweet sister...I hope that you can continue to be honest with yourself and continue to grieve and heal. You may have done the healthiest thing for your baby by acknowledging that it may be the time to go in to the hosp. I know that hearing that "a healthy baby is the most important outcome" totally ignores *your* feelings about the whole thing. Thank you for sharing your honesty.
(((Shawna)))


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## hobbitsmama (Aug 19, 2003)

wow. this thread definitely caught my attention. we planned a homebirth and ended up in the hospital too.
i can really relate to a lot of what i have read from all you other wonderful mamas. it has been very hard to heal .. and when i look at what some of you have come through .. i feel guilty for feeling disappointed with our birth experience. i was very lucky in comparison .. but still i am working on healing and it is taking a long time. my daughter is almost 17 months now. i keep thinking "next time" but i know i need to be focused on the present to be here for her. besides there is no guarantee that things will be perfect next time either .. or even that there will BE a next time.
i am starting to question the way our midwife handled the situation ... was it really necessary to go to the hospital? i have been reading "ina may's guide to childbirth" (great book!) and i keep thinking .. "if my midwife had done this or that then maybe i could have had my baby at home." but then i think .. i should not blame her. then i take too much blame on myself. my midwife implies that i was too afraid and that if i had needed to move around more to get the baby out then i would have done so. i think i needed and expected more guidance from her. and i was very uncomfortable with her backup midwife who was at our birth and told me to start pushing way too early. i ended up pushing for 8.5 hours before we drove 45 minutes to our backup dr., got pitocin and pushed my daughter out in 45 minutes ... dealt with bureaucratic b.s., finally got discharged at 1 a.m. and went home. i know i am lucky in comparison .. but it is hard to let go of what you planned and dreamed of ... the peace of home .. and my dh also says "our daughter is healthy" so i am mouring alone. besides it isn't his body that "failed." the worst part has been dealing with my family and friends who thought we were endangering our baby with a homebirth saying "we knew the best place for you was the hospital. " ugh. they think we have "learned our lesson."
ok, sorry about this super huge message. i needed to get a lot off my chest .. thank you for listening. i look forward to hearing from more moms about their experiences and thoughts.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Almost everyone I knew was glad I went to the hospital as well. The only people who were concerned were my parents, of course, since they had me at home. But everyone said they were so relieved when they found out, even people who had seemed supportive from the beginning.

After they got to see dd for the first time they all asked "What are you going to do next time?" And I said I would go to the hospital, which is what they wanted to hear, and which is what I believed at the time. So now I can expect even less support from them if they find out I'm doing it at home. I keep hoping they won't ask but I'm sure it will come up.

Maybe I could get some of them to come along to a MW appointment; I'm sure they will be impressed when they see how different it is from an OB appt! More personal and thorough.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

My story could go on and on&#8230; I hear you girl! I couldn't afford MW so we decided to go UC- it was no big deal because I had been trained as a doula and we were pretty educated on birth and the what not. I had been to tons of doctors under the sun about a bone condition I have and I been classified as "high-risk" with very little education form any doctor on my condition and anything I would say was quickly dismissed by their medical opinion- not the knowledge of normal birth. I did have a back-up doctor if I had to go to the hospital that was also a specialist in my bone condition- I figured I would have my basis covered. So, when labor started on Saturday March 29th I almost threw a party! I baked a cake and got all the shower curtains out and the towels and the clean dipe I couldn't wit to really get into labor! Well 24 hours later still in labor and still no baby- I thought I would have a super fast labor be in bed with my baby that same night and sleep happily ever after! Well, my dream birth never happened. It was into the 30th hour and my labor got real hard lots of leg labor- by the 38th hour DP started worrying and that made me doubt and after several "do you want to go yet"? questions I decided maybe I was being too stubborn and I decided it was time to go to the hospital. So in hour 39 we got there- first they tried to make me sit in the waiting room- so I started screaming with a cx and you should have seen how fast they moved! I got another doctor form my Dr.'s practice that I never met- my super outspoken partner some how got a frog in his throat and didn't advocate for me. I started pushing and all the sudden I felt a sharp pinch in my area and I screamed "what the hell are you doing" and the doctor said "it was a shot to numb you in case I need to cut you" WHAT???? I was so pissed I started screaming at her that I was not giving her the consent to cut me. After a heated argument as I am pushing my baby out- FLAT ON MY BACK! She backed off. Damn chick! So we had made it a point to say several time we didn't want the cord cut- and what did they do before she was even out?? I hear the doctor say "cord is done pulsating" and before I could do a thing it was cut! I was so upset. Then we said we didn't want vitamin K and the eye drops and they said if we refused the eye drops they would call a judge right then and take our brand new beautiful baby girl away from us and put her in custody of the state and do it anyway. I felt so violated by the system and by my voice not being heard. I can only imagine how other women who have had it worse than I feel. It is the most magical day of your life and the hospital staff strips so much of that away- I will never again birth a baby at the hospital. I love my baby too much to have my parental rights over ridded and taken away from me. I am her parent and I have the right to say what happens to her- be it the cord that attaches her to myself or the medication she is given- I forgot! They gave me the meds for GSB as I was in labor and because she was born within 1 hour they gave it to her again! I was so pissed. So that is my story- I make myself feel better by knowing it could have been so much worse- they would never have let me go 40 hours in labor! But still I was violated- and it makes me so sad.

Like I sad all my other babies will be born at home- And I am happy to say my Rainey was born natural and very healty.


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## shelley4 (Sep 10, 2003)

my son (now 2) was a planned homebirth that ended up in hospital. it was horrible.. i never met the doc before, and he never even introduced himself... he just sat down and said "i'm going to help you now" (i was thinking, help with what? i'm doing fine).. and proceeded to give me a *huge* episiotomy!! what the crap!!! because my son was born with the cord wrapped pretty tightly around his neck, and because there was meconium in the water, i only got to see him for a minute (and that's only because our midwife practically forced them to let me see him!), and then he got whisked off to the nursery "for observation and tests".. that lasted *3 hours*!!!!!!! i was separated from my newborn for 3 whole crappy hours. now, he was just fine, he didn't inhale any meconium, he was breathing well.. but the nurses in the nursery made it sound like he was severely sick.. not great for a new, first time momma to hear. we ended up staying in hospital for 3 days "for observation". i wish i would have just walked out that night.

for the last 2 years, it has always hurt. i've been sad and embarassed. i've only now found great comfort in the fact that my daughter, Ellia, was a successful homebirth, i was never separated from her at all.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

I hope that I am not butting in too much here ladies. But I wanted to share my thougts. For those of you who don't 'know' me, we had our first in a hospital. The way my labor was handled was a comedy of errors, we did have a 12 hour drug-free labor but my daughter died sometime during the 10 minutes I was pushing her out. I was told that she had not shown any signs of distress, which I found to be a bald-faced lie when I got a copy of the records. I think that in their medical arrogance they just figured that they would resusitate. My son's labor was 10 hours, my midwife caught him at home after 23 minutes of pushing.

In talking to many mamas, boh here and IRL, I have heard such disappointment when mamas admit to having an epidural or a c-section. So I ask them what their situation was, and they say things like, "I was induced at 37 weeks for Preeclampsia" or "I was on an IV for ______" and it makes me so sad the expectations that those of us who are educated about the kind of birth we want have for ourselves have us questioning ourselves and our efforts like that.

The way I see it, sure... a drug free birth at home is the ideal. But once other factors enter the picture (induction, IV's, a provider who doesn't beleive in birth, etc) this can make a drug-free birth nearly impossible. I can tell you all right now, that if I had had an IV, EFM, or anything else that would have limited my movement, I would have needed drugs for my pain. If I had been induced, I would have needed an epidural for the pain, as it is known that induced ctx are so much more painful then regular ones. The only thing that got me through my labors w/o drugs was the ability to move and to be in a shower to releive my pain. If I were on my back in a bed, I don't think I would have been able to handle 10 minutes of ctx.

One friend told me how sad she was that she had a c-sec. When I asked her more, she said how 1) she had preeclampsia, so 2) she was induced at 36 weeks, which meant 3) an IV filled with 4) pitocin and other fun things, which meant 5) that she was stuck on the bed for the IV and 6) EFM. She pushed for 5 1/2 hours before she consented to a c-sec. WOW. That mama tried her heart out. She certainly experienced a LOT more pain then I did, and pushed about 14 times longer then I ever have. In my opinion, she deserves to be just as proud of her efforts as I am of mine, if not more so.

Okay, I have to nurse ds right now, will finish this later. I hope I have not hurt anyone or put my foot in my mouth. You are all fierce mamas and should all be proud of yourselves.

XM


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## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

I have been following this thread, and have not yet posted because of the pain it reminds me of from my own birth expectations being dashed.

I had a horrible first labor, induced after nearly 43 weeks, hours and hours of contractions, fetal distress after pro-longed pushing, so a c-section. It hurt so bad that I felt like I had failed, if I had only tried harder, if I hadn't been induced....if I, if I...And so many folks made comments about how I should have relaxed more, or just pushed harder.

So for my second I tried a mid-wife, who let me labor in her very comfortable home to get away from then regulaions re-garding v-bac in her birth center or at home. I tried, I was educated, I walked, I squatted... I did not dialate...after a full a day of this, and horrible exhaustion, I consented to a transfer. I fully trusted my midwife on this, knowing that I had some specific problems (most notably a deformed pelvis-- with a tail bone that is actually at an acute right angle, and severe cervical scar tissue from laser surgery to remove in situ cancerous cells just before my second pregnancy). The ob I was transferred to was wonderfully supportive, she had done my pre-cancer surgery earlier, and was very understanding of my needs. However, I did at that point feel the need for an epidural (was this failure?), and they did try a small dose of pitocin. Even after hours and hours, I would not open up. So I had another c-section. And went home with a tremendous sense of disapointment and loss.

I still have some glimmers of feelings about the births that I need to process, but I just wanted to encourage you who are in the midst of it. It gets better! You will wake up one day and not feel that dark cloud over your head, and you will feel like the strong woman you wanted to feel like. If not in how your birth went, in how you mother. I am not trying to minimize your pain, its there, and its real, and believe me, I know how it hurts. But it will get better.

Quote:

One friend told me how sad she was that she had a c-sec. When I asked her more, she said how 1) she had preeclampsia, so 2) she was induced at 36 weeks, which meant 3) an IV filled with 4) pitocin and other fun things, which meant 5) that she was stuck on the bed for the IV and 6) EFM. She pushed for 5 1/2 hours before she consented to a c-sec. WOW. That mama tried her heart out. She certainly experienced a LOT more pain then I did, and pushed about 14 times longer then I ever have. In my opinion, she deserves to be just as proud of her efforts as I am of mine, if not more so.
Thank you so much for this XM, from another mama who tried her heart out, this was the most beautiful and healing thing I could have read. Thank you for the respect for what c-birth mama's go through, so many act like we didn't really do anything birth wise.

DeAnna


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## Lakin24 (Jan 24, 2002)

It's taken me months to get over the birth of my younger daughter, and in many ways I am still angry and disappointed. We had planned a UC vbac with baby #2 and everything through the pregnancy went easy as pie -- and then I started bleeding, heavy bright red blood, so off to the hospital we went.

It's a long story... I came home against medical advice when the bleeding stopped and they couldn't explain it, only to have it start again 12 hours later and end up right back in the hospital. Bleeding was on and off. I had many an ultrasound (when I had not wanted one at all) and had an amniocentesis to see if the baby's lungs were okay (I was 33½ weeks pregnant). The amnio caused my water to break and bleeding to start again...... so my gentle UC homebirth ended up being an emergency c-section. AND the doctor was so offended by my even trying to have a homebirth (I told her that doctors were not necessary for birthing & she was totally offended and rude) that she did not even bother to avoid making a vertical incision.

Instead of babymooning in bed for 10 days we got to camp up at the NICU for 10 days waiting for the hospital to release my beautiful daughter. The only comfort I take is in knowing that she never had a drop of anything but my breastmilk - on this I was very forceful and insistent.

My whole birth story can be found here: http://www.birthlove.com/pages/csec_vbac/addah.html or here: http://www.obrientower.com/addah/addahbirthstory.htm.

We will not be having any more children, and in that decision we are very secure and happy. But I can't ever help but feel some residual anger and disappointment at how totally botched Addah's birth was from how we planned and wanted it. I will never have a natural birth, I will never have a vaginal birth. Making peace with that is a lot harder than I ever thought it would be.


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

hi all!
well, I haven't had a chance to reply to this thread since the day I started it, but I have been reading faithfully. It is at the same time enlightening & disheartening to read all of our stories. I come away mourning for our unfulfilled potential, but also in awe of the strength we have shown against oftentimes tremendous odds.

My mind is filled with question after question... but I always come back to this: What can I do to transform the destructive attitudes & barriers that surround natural birth in this culture? I am convinced that each one of us would be at peace with our births if we knew the best possible outcome for ourselves & our babies had been achieved. But the odds are stacked against us by a culture that disempowers women & disregards the benefits of natural birth. I know that despite years of research, education, & planning, I could only insulate myself so far & in the end, had to compromise and settle for less than my ideal. There were just no other choices left. I am coming to a place where I am able to move beyond blaming any one person, be that myself, my MW, my Dr, etc.

For a time I have felt that since I did not have a homebirth, I wouldn't have a place among those who did. The same might be true for the feelings of a C-mom who still wants to discuss natural birth, etc. It is so easy to feel judged by those who have done what we tried to do. For me, I think those feelings have mainly come from inside of me, my own judgemental voice that berates me, not from the natural birth community here or elsewhere. I think that at the end of healing comes action. I hope that out of this experience I will be able to be even more an outspoken & active part of the natural birth community instead of less.

blessings to all, maria


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## BirthTender (May 1, 2002)

HI, all. I've been reading all these posts about these disappointing births. I've had them, too. I am presently a direct-entry.
In the almost 23 years that i've been involved in some capacity in midwifery/homebirth/consumer advocacy, I've seen some CPM's who were a whole lot more interventive than some homebirth CNM's (especially CNM's who were doing homebirths as a direct-entry midwife for years before becoming a CNM) & I've seen some direct-entry midwives who were more interventive than some homebirth CNM's or CPM's. I've also seen some very interventive CNM's, but I also know a hospital CNM who is one of the most non-interventive midwives (& uses lots of herbs & alternatives in the hospital!)that I have ever known & tells the nurses what the couple/lady wants or doesn't want!
I've said many times on these forums, that one has to carefully check out all the attendants in your area to find the right one for you (even if that sometimes means going more than 2 hour away). Some folks will even travel into a preferred attendant's neighborhood & have the baby in motels, travel trailers, friends' & relatives' homes, the midwife's home, etc. That happens alot. So, don't automatically assume that the one attendant or attendants who is/are sanctioned by the controlling rumor mongering types in her state or area is/are the right attendant for you. You'd be very surprised at some of the reasons that the rumor-mongering insecure, but loud mouthed types start rumors or half-truths on other midwives & sometimes it's been for reasons, like one midwife has a nicer home than another! There's a serious lack of respect & trust for other midwives among the non-CNM types & that is very disheartening.
I encourage all of you to really take your time in chekcing out attendants. Require them to supply you w/ a Informed Document that hopefully covers all their training, complications, fees, & many other things & then ask for a no-strings-attached consult. Many midwives in my practice area dont' supply these totally informative documents & dont' have a no-strings-attached consult & the couple doesn't search out others before choosing one & only then beginning prenatals. Also, know that there are safe ways (w/ much empirical evidence that they do work) to get rid of strep through all kinds of concoctions that dont' have anything to do w/ IV antibiotics. But for the ones who choose the antibiotics over the ways that I suggest for dealing w/ the strep (which also includes a don't test option), I will do an IV antibiotic for them. I would also do an glucose IV for someone who was dehydrated & couldn't stop vomiting, so she could get some energy back & remain at home. I'm a RN, (but was a midwife long before getting the RN) so wouldn't have trouble doing that & can order the fluids w/out any problems. Remember that sometimes things happen at birth that aren't our ideals & there's no explanation. One has to research & understand & make better choices for next time, yes, but there are still so many unknowns about everything in birth & death, too. As I've said many times on this forum & others, most folks take more time & care at picking out a new car, then they do in choosing someone to help them in one of their most important life events. That was longwinded & now i need to get off & go do some prenatals. Many warm regards to you all, Karen Valcourt of BirthTender in the foothills of the NC Mtns.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by BirthTender_
*One has to research & understand & make better choices for next time, yes, but there are still so many unknowns about everything in birth & death, too. As I've said many times on this forum & others, most folks take more time & care at picking out a new car, then they do in choosing someone to help them in one of their most important life events.*
Perhaps this was not directed to all of us here, but I'm confused... I DID research and interview and cover all my bases with my midwives. I was actually seeking out midwives before we were even TTC'ing. It didn't keep me from developing pre-eclampsia. What "better choice" could I have made in my situation? I trusted my midwives, and even called to ask them which direction I should take once the hospital doctors wanted to admit me (I was seeing doctors to have my labs done under my insurance since my midwives were out of pocket). I certainly hope that next time I'm able to have my homebirth, but what choices did I screw up on this time?


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## BirthTender (May 1, 2002)

Lisa Lynn, you didn't screw up on any choices. Karen of BirthTender


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## BirthTender (May 1, 2002)

<but there are still so many unknowns about everything in birth & death, too>

Lisa, my short post posted before I was ready, guess I hit something when i got up to go to bathroom. Sounds like the pre-eclampsia hit suddenly (it does sometimes) & it's hard to say if it would have abated at that point, if you had gone home & done a number of things to bring it under control. I had pre-eclampsia w/ my first, as well & ended up transporting, too. I did do more research the next times (3 more times) around & had it under control through diet, herbs, supplements, behavior modification, & etc. & went on to have 3 babies at home. Warm Regards, Karen of BirthTender


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

BirthTender, I found your posts very insightful and right on the mark. IMO, whenever a midwife or midwives are not even present at the birth or postpartum, then that is extremely poor care of a client. If they are not there to advocate for a birth plan and run interference in the most interfering environment known to birthing (Hospital) then the vulnerable party (birthing mother) is left all on her own and no amount of antenatal hand holding or good feelings or 'they are so nice!' counts for jack in that moment.

That is my experience, not saying it's truth for all. But honestly, how can anyone pay a birth attendant when that attendant isn't right there at the birth? Or the birth attendant is too busy other times, missing births, etc. I don't understand that at all. Support should be there for the birthing mother no matter what. If the midwife isn't there or turns the care over to a doctor, then the client is just like any other birthing woman in the hospital. Well, maybe that birthing woman knows that she shouldn't be in hospital and what those drugs and violence are doing to her and the baby. But in the end, the birth is another statistic for Inductions, C-Sections, and other managed birth practices in this country. It didn't matter then that a midwife was involved along the way, except to the pocketbook.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Hmmm... this thread was to be a supportive place for mamas who planned a homebirth and ended up with a hospital birth. It seems to have taken a turn from the OP's intent.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BirthTender
One has to research & understand & make better choices for next time, yes, but there are still so many unknowns about everything in birth & death, too. As I've said many times on this forum & others, most folks take more time & care at picking out a new car, then they do in choosing someone to help them in one of their most important life events.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know... it's true that *most* women don't put much thought into their births. Our society makes birth seem something that happens *to* us, not something that we can actively participate in. So they plan their epidurals and leave it at that. So many women don't even know enough about their bodies or natural birth to know when something is truly wrong and when their doc is full of BS in reccomending various interventions. And even women who know that there is more to be desired in birth then just surviving it cannot always find the level of care that they deserve, ending up with a medwife who gives them lip service or a doc who says they support natural birth (in their minds, meaning vaginal) and fails to mention that they pride themselves on how well they can stitch an episiotomy.

Perhaps it would be different if we didn't have a patriarchial society where women are strangers to their bodies and midwives are still persecuted for serving women with the compassion and options that we deserve. Until then, we mamas can only do our best with what we are given.

One thing that needs to be remembered is that the vast majority of the mamas on this thread are NOT women who were uninformed about birth, as are the majority of women are in our society. If they were, they would not be questioning thier experiences and choices because they would'nt *know* any better then what they experienced. But they DID educate themselves, and circumstances convened that did not allow them to fulfill their wishes. I think this deserves recognition and respect. Having a natural homebirth IMO depends on a combination of preperation and luck. You can do all the research and be fully educated and prepared, taking awesome care of yourself and something can still happen to screw up your plans.

If these women were ignorant of birth, they would not be grieving their homebirths.

My friend that developed preeclampsia was a size 7 and very healthy. You'd think she would have had the easy birth and I would have had the hard one! She did all the right things but when it came down to her care providers telling her that the baby was in trouble... well, no matter what your plans, when your providers are telling you that your baby is at risk your 'ideal birth' goes out the window and you just want to save the baby. To suggest that such a mama may do better next time because she can make 'better choices' is a slap in the face. No matter how well you prepare, there will always be those 'unknowns' that you mention...

But I *do* agree that if more women were better educated about birth that providers would HAVE to respect our wishes and do more to give us the births we want. But since so many women think that birth is 'just that way', they usually let providers pull all kinds of crap without even questioning it, and then steamroll the rest of us who dare to ask for compassion and respect in birth. I am sure that a midwife would have caught my dd's distress, but I could not find a MW in my area who would take me, so I *had* to go with a doc. Too many midwives (at least in my state) are more concerned about litigation and liability then helping other women because of the really scary politics involved. This is more of a point of concern then women who don't know that they can expect more from birth, IMNSHO.

And to imply that maybe I should have tried harder to find a MW for my dd is disrespectful. I tried every avenue available. How did I find my MW this time? LUCK. A new mama friend who just happened to see my post here looking for a MW PM'd me and we went from there. I prepared to the hilt last time, doing Bradley, an organic whole foods Brewer diet, seeing a chiropracor, taking herbs. This time I also prepared... but I needed a bit of that LUCK for things to fall into place so I could have my homebirth.

I am so sorry to have jacked your thread, Maria. You ladies all have my deepest respect, you are all strong, brave mamas and I just wanted to be supportive. Sorry about the incohesive novel, it is late and it's time to go to bed already.

XM


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by BirthTender_
*<but there are still so many unknowns about everything in birth & death, too>

Lisa, my short post posted before I was ready, guess I hit something when i got up to go to bathroom. Sounds like the pre-eclampsia hit suddenly (it does sometimes) & it's hard to say if it would have abated at that point, if you had gone home & done a number of things to bring it under control. I had pre-eclampsia w/ my first, as well & ended up transporting, too. I did do more research the next times (3 more times) around & had it under control through diet, herbs, supplements, behavior modification, & etc. & went on to have 3 babies at home. Warm Regards, Karen of BirthTender*
Well I know you don't know my whole situation, but I had been having creeping blood pressure issues for the last half of my pregnancy. I was taking herbs, watching my diet, immersing myself in water, keeping calm and laying down several times a day on my left side, ect, ect, ect to keep my blood pressure from rising to a dangerous level.

I did everything I could, and its VERY hurtful to have you come in and say "it's hard to say if it would have abated at that point, if you had gone home & done a number of things to bring it under control" in a support thread. I'm sure you didn't intend for it to hurt me, but it has, big time.

Here I am, tearful, hurt, upset, feeling like I'm a big fat failure because my body "screwed up" (and is continuing to "screw up" when my milk still isn't in FOURTEEN days after birth, but that's another thread), feeling like I must have just not found or thought of some avenue to turn to in order to magically 'fix' this, feeling like I let the doctors pressure me in the face of YOUR AND YOUR BABY'S LIFE IS IN DANGER comments, ect, ect and the last thing I need here is a comment like "hmmmm well maybe if you would have gone home and did something it could have been better". That really isn't doing a darn bit of good in helping me *feel* better here in this SUPPORT thread. Yes maybe I *could* have gone home and took some herbs or some sort to try to lower my BP and the protein in my urine. Or perhaps I could have come home and had a seizure or stroke.

I get that you're just trying to be helpful, and impart information to us that we should be making the best choices we can and being educated about birth and pregnancy and labor and midwives and everything else, but like XM says, I think that all the women here are educated, and did research, and did the best they possibly could for their pregnancies. I don't think many homebirthers would fit into the uneducated-about-birth catagory. So while you're just trying to help, it seems kinda like telling a math teacher they should learn about multiplication and devision.

Quote:

But honestly, how can anyone pay a birth attendant when that attendant isn't right there at the birth?
bfbabygirl, I'm not sure if this is directed at everyone, or me, or someone else, but I didn't pay my midwives for the birth they weren't at (their fees for prenatals and birth is $4000). I paid them for my prenatals and that's it (about $1000). I *could* have asked them to come to my hospital birth, and I'm sure they would have, but they would have no authority in the hospital I had to use (for insurance to cover), and would have basically been glorified doulas, and I think everyone would agree paying $3000 for a doula is just a *wee* bit expensive. But yes, I agree it is pretty silly to pay an entire fee for a birth attendant who doesn't attend.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Hey, OP

Sorry everyone, I didn't have time to read all the posts this morning but I wanted to share my disappointments of a "planned" homebirth. Hopefully, I'll have time to read through the tread later.

I had planned a homebirth for my first child and ended up in the hospital. Our situation was that I labored at home for 17 hours with 3 hours of pushing before being transferred to the hospital. We were so close that I felt my daughters head while I was at home, in my own bed. We transferred because the fetal monitor(our 3rd+ intervention) indicated that Aya was under stress.
I gave birth to her after an hour in the hospital.

Pros for transferring:
I got the kind of support that I needed from the hospital staff. My midwife and I were not working well together at home. It turns out, much to my surprise, that I needed the traditional "hospital style" cheering section to help me push Aya out.

The other benefit to my being in the hospital was that I hemorrhaged twice after birthing Aya. I'm not sure but I may have needed to go to the hospital anyway. My midwife did stand by ME very much after the birth and I think saved me from a much bigger birth complication by treating me after the birth.

The biggest cons for me as far as the hospital goes were that I wasn't prepared to defend Aya at the hospital. For that I wish I had done better. I didn't get to even see my placenta and other things like that happened that I wish were different.

** I do believe that if I had started the birth in the hospital that I would have ended up with a c-section **`

I just scanned through the posts and have a few things to add. I birthed a perfectly healthy baby, for which I am eternally grateful. I had some regrets about the birth but always remind myself how fortunate we are for the BIG positives (healthy mother and child) and the SMALL ones (no drugs/c-section and etc).

Edited to stress that I only say that drugs/c-section and etc. are are RELATIVELY small issues in comparison to a healthy mother and child.

In the end - The only thing I would have changed would have been preparing myself about hospital procedures. I say this because you can never know the outcome of different choices and because I ended up with a healthy child - that's the bottom line for me.

LisaLynn,

Is your baby healthy? Are you well? If so, you made the right choices for you and your baby and even if not you may have made the best possible choice. When I'm having thoughts of wishing I had done better I can make myself feel better by thinking about our positive things. I also thing that if I had done something differently, perhaps the results could have been worse. I think that PERHAPS I did everything perfectly and ours was the best possible result.

I just wanted to comment on your payment conversation because that was another, unexpected positive for us. First, my midwife did practice on me after the birth although she wasn't allowed. After she did it, the doctor thanked her because she didn't pick up on the blood clot in my uterus (even after my midwife had alerted her several times).
AND, our insurance paid both my midwives and the doctor in full! I think it was an oversight but I wasn't about to complain.


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## Kerlowyn (Mar 15, 2002)

I agree with XM's post








I know all of us did our homework to the best of our ability when planning our home births, but for various reasons, we all birthed in the hospital.
My homebirth was attended by one of the best and most well respected midwives in New England. At the time, and even now, she has her own school for direct entry midwives, doulas, & herbalists&#8230;I was a midwifery student of hers at the time. The midwife who assisted her was also a very experienced, wonderful midwife. I labored at home for 3 full days & nights&#8230;and on the morning of day four, transported. They did absolutely everything, and I mean everything, to get my body to stay in labor. It was not meant to be. I was so angry with my body at that time. It was years later in hindsight, that I realized there were deep, emotional and spiritual reasons as to why I had a hard time 'letting go' of my baby. So, my body needed help, and off we went to the hospital to get the Pitocin to keep my body in labor.
My midwife did come with me to the hospital and was there for me the whole time. The back up midwife, when the hospital staff was not looking, let her manage my labor and consulted her for everything. It was the hospital staff and the nasty OB (that I describe in my earlier post) who turned what was already "not the birth I had planned", into something very awful and cruel.
But, I did deliver a very healthy 10 lb. 4 oz boy, and became a mom that day.
I was also so sad about doing it in a hospital, but time has helped those feelings to diminish.
So, I guess my point is that&#8230;some of you ladies reading this thread did all you could, all your research, all your homework, but did not have the home birth you wanted. My heart goes out to you all. You all did the best you could, we all did! We made choices with the info and situations we had at the time. Talking about what happened helps a lot. Listening to your experiences helps me a lot







even 10 years after that birth.








Karen/BirthTender&#8230;.I took a childbirth class with you when you were in RI. I was labor support for a single mom friend of mine; I think it was back in 1991&#8230;.


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## BirthTender (May 1, 2002)

<Hmmm... this thread was to be a supportive place for mamas who planned a homebirth and ended up with a hospital birth. It seems to have taken a turn from the OP's intent.>

I am being supportive. The intent of one's conversation & real meaning is so lost on the internet, when there's no face to face conversation w/ the attending body language. I could try & include smiley faces & all here, but i don't know how & at this point w/ teenagers & college age kids needing to get on the only computer, too, my messages are hurriedly typed & I dont' get my menaing across. I'm totally supportive of those who have to transport from a homebirth to a hospital birth, after a planned homebirth, (and deal w/ those feelings) as i've been
there myself (had a horribly long labor, w/ pre-eclampsia, persistent occiput posterior, which persisted w/ all my babies). My original post was generalized & still is & I have found many, but of course not all, folks really don't heavily inquire & search out options & caregivers & inquire about alternative treatments, etc. I'm not saying that each of you all as individuals did not 'beat the bushes!' Kerowlyn, HI. Waving from here in the foothills of NC on a beautifual day!Karen of BirthTender


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## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

XM--

Thank you again for another insightful post. I like how you say that if we were ignorant about birth, we would not be grieving our loss.

I feel that I did everything, researched everything, tried everything that I could, given my circumstances. Still I ended up in the hospital with a c-birth, and still my feelings of failure and loss were profound. Too place the responsibility for changing the system on women like me, instead of on the providers themselves, is so very hurtful and unfair.

(((Lisa_Lynn))) I am so sorry you are hurting so much right now. I remember how very much of a shock it was when my birth plans didn't work out-- I likened it to being tossed off a cliff. You will get through this, you will get past the pain, you will feel empowered and strong again. I promiss.

DeAnna


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by BirthTender_
*Sounds like the pre-eclampsia hit suddenly (it does sometimes) & it's hard to say if it would have abated at that point, if you had gone home & done a number of things to bring it under control.*
Karen, if this is your idea of being 'supportive', can I just say right now how grateful I am that you were not MY midwife?

Please *read*, really read, your words before you post them. Being pressed for time is no excuse for being careless when making potentially hurtful comments. I would expect a MW to have more respect for the power of words and the energy they carry. Please also remember that many of these ladies are new (very new, in Lisa's case) mamas, and a new mama is in such a vulnerable place as far as her energy and her psyche. She is still open and vulnerable from the birth and the spiritual act of bringing forth new life, which is a holy thing no matter where or how it occurs. They are coming here to support each other, not to have tongues clicked at them condescendingly by those who 'know better'.

My midwife studied with Susun Weed (who attended the birth of her last dd, in fact) and has been published herself on the topic of wholistic approaches to supporting pregnancy. Under her guidance, one of my very good friends had her twins at home. They were 8lb2oz and 8lb12oz, both breech, and born at home without a single tear. Not every mama is LUCKY enough to have someone with that kind of expertise to help them. How absurd to infer that they are somehow at fault for the scarcity of good midwives. If that isn't blaming the victim, I don't know what is.

I was not with Lisa for her pregnancy and birth, but we PM'd often. When she shared her BP concerns a few months back with me, I gave her the herbal protocol that I had followed. It worked for me when meds didn't, and it is the same advice she would have gotten from Ms. Weed herself. Now, if it did not work for her situation, that is NOT her fault, and how presumpuous for you to suggest otherwise.

Lauren had to teach this one to bfbabygirl when she made some poorly-considered (and thus, hurtful) comments on Lisa's milk thread. It's a ":" followed (no space) by the word"hug". Karen, I reccomend you post that and then walk away from this conversation before you hurt anyone else with your idea of "support".








: ...and I thought COMPASSION was a midwife's most powerful tool.

And can I also say that any homebirthing mama who dares to be smug to a mama who lost out on her own homebirth is highly dellusional about how much of her birth was due to her own efforts and how much was pure luck... please have some respect for other mamas who did not have the same luck. Remember, it could be YOU next time, hurting so much about something so precious being lost due to events beyond your control.

XM


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I know that I’m a late comer to this discussion but I would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion of the offensive remarks. It most definitely is important as it is to be careful while posting here, especially with people who post in seek of support. BUT, it is also very important to remember how easy it is with on-line communication to come off differently than how you had intended. I read all the posts and it seems like everyone was trying to be supportive. I think there is more than one person here who is not communicating well. I am usually one who doesn’t communicate well on-line so I would know how easy it is to offend.


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## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

XM--

I hope that this thread can be turned back to its orriginal intent-- a place for mama's grieving the loss of their homebirths to receive the support they need, not a place to debate the politics or necessisity of interventions.

Lisa_Lynn, how are you today? So much of what you say about being hurt and tearful and feeling like a "big fat failure" rings so true for me, and brings back so many painful memories. And I know that the feeling of failure is so primal right now, that no matter how many times kind people tell you that you are not a failure, it barely makes a dent in the pain, does it? Please hang in there sweetie. Again, I promiss you, this will get worked through, and you will feel better some day soon.

And I hope this doesn't sound trite, and please don't think I am in any way minimizing your emotions-- but I looked at your babes pictures, and he is so beautiful and so very loved. No way in heck that the momma who brought forth that little guy failed. You not only planned, and worked, and researched, you had to make a decision to do what you most didn't want to do (going into the hospital to birth, and allowing the interventions), out of concern for his health and wellbeing. You placed his health above your own hopes and dreams, which is so much the essence of mothering. Way to go, mama!!!!









XM, your posts here are like healing water. It is so good to see a homebirth mama validate the pain that those of us who were denied our homebirths feel. Thank you.

And Karen, I hope that you exercise more caution in dealing with your clients than I have seen you show here. I am glad that my midwife acknowledged my need for intervention, made sure that I got it in the most compassionant way possible, and then days later held me in her arms as I sobbed through my disapointment, and told me how very strong I had been. It would have broken my heart if she had told me that "if I had gone home and done a number of things" my birth could have gone better. Broken in to pieces.

to all the mamas hurting, take care, it will get better.

DeAnna


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## BirthTender (May 1, 2002)

Dear Everyone, I have had the computer on all day trying to wrap up loose ends before we leave shortly for a short trip, where I will not have access to the computer. (we like to camp). There is/has been a mis-understanding in regards to my intent & message, and as i've indicated before, Internet communication leaves alot to be desired for. I Will not continue in this nit-picking any longer, as I meant & mean nothing but total support. Have a Wonderful Day everyone. Karen of BirthTender


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

hi all~ well well well... as the OP here I want to weigh in on all these "goins ons" as they say in my part of the country:

Quote:

But they DID educate themselves, and circumstances convened that did not allow them to fulfill their wishes. I think this deserves recognition and respect. Having a natural homebirth IMO depends on a combination of preperation and luck.
XM~ how I love you! Thanks for speaking what I was *thinking* while I read Birth Tenders post.

And, Birth Tender, here's how I *felt* about that post: a little bit misunderstood, KWIM? Like a bit of unneccessary preaching to the choir, right? Shutting the door after the horse is out of the stable? Something like that. I took it as somebody trying to relate & be helpful, but missing the point. I wish you had shared your personal experience with your pregnancy that ended up complicated & how you dealt with it, not your professional viewpoint. After all, this thread is about discussing & processing our stuff. Nobody can fix me, I just have to work thru it, hopefully with a listening ear.

One of the things that makes this harder for me: I feel it is really really easy to place all the weight for a "bad birth" at the mom's feet. Heck, I do it to myself. More & more I realize that as much as I fight it, society's messages about me as a woman, as a mother get in. They are so internalized that I find myself fighting MYSELF as I try to become a good mom. As I said in my last post (right before birth tender's): "But the odds are stacked against us by a culture that disempowers women & disregards the benefits of natural birth. I know that despite years of research, education, & planning, I could only insulate myself so far & in the end, had to compromise and settle for less than my ideal. There were just no other choices left."

Quote:

I hope that this thread can be turned back to its orriginal intent-- a place for mama's grieving the loss of their homebirths to receive the support they need, not a place to debate the politics or necessisity of interventions.
but you know what dlb, the politics of interventions are such a part of my process, I'd be surprised if they didn't come up!

IMO, the loss of my homebirth was in large part due to the politics of birth: my CPM was required by law (her state licensing) to turn me over to her OB when I hit 42 weeks, which we were rapidly approaching. (BTW, I will LIE about my LMP if there is ever a next time) Her frame of mind was much impacted by that & in turn I was influenced. Truly my 1st "intervention" was black & blue cohosh, caulophylum & EPO. Did those thing cause my water to break 1st? If we could have progressed without watching the calender & I had gone into labor water intact & we hadn't seen the mec until the birth or 2nd stage, we would have been @ home. Etc, etc, etc.

So, yes, absolutely let's keep this a healing place for us all & let's not ban any topic from discussion. Please let's talk from our hearts & experiences with honesty & direstness. And as always, lets let a little bit slide.








Maria


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm talking directly to having just read your last post. In a way I feel like I'm out of place here because my baby's birth was two+ years ago. I've healed a lot since then and I also wasn't as pained by my disappointment by our outcomes as some others.

I'm interested in this post partially because I never really talked about my birth with anyone and I felt very welcomed into this little club of homebirth wishers or planners. I'm also interested because, lately, I've been thinking about what is the "big picture" and what are the details that make a whole. For example, I'm very interested in the option of adoption but part of me is so concerned about the experience of pregnancy, birth and early infancy for the child that I'm afraid of not being in control of those things with an adopted child.

I guess that I'm in a place of letting go and so I'm not relating so well to the devastation of a hospital transfer as well as I may have two years ago. I do, however, really appreciate this thread and I'm glad to be a part.

I know there is one new mother here, Lisa_Lynn (I read your nursing thread) and I don't really know the situation of the others but maybe things heal. I think they do, they definitely do. Seriously, I can't even relate very well because so many wonderful things have happened since the birth of my baby.

BTW, I don't know what your intervenions are but my first intervention was a midwife...Hey if you want to get extreme, my first intervention was the over the counter pregnancy test. For us the intervention that ultimately got us to the hospital was the fetal monitor but I'd probably still use one the next time and I would definitely (my personal choice) use prenatal care and a midwife.

About your after thoughts on the birth, do any of you think about the potential outcomes of a different choice. Do you ever think that if the other choice may have been worse? I do and did all the time but our particular circumstances made it easy to do so. If I had chosen a hospital birth from the beginning, I may have had a c-section BUT, if I hadn't transferred, I may have had to transfer after the birth anyway (for my health). Maybe this would have been worse&#8230;maybe it would have been better&#8230;there's no way to know.
\
I just read my post and see that there are many grammar mistakes. I think I'll leave them&#8230;for fun (and because I'm lazy). In my defense, I'm learning a second language (and I have a toddler) and this makes it even harder to write&#8230;which I wasn't very good at in the first place.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thanks for asking DeAnna, and thanks for the support XM. I agree Spiralwoman, I know birthtender was just trying to help, but it was confusing the help she was giving.

Anyways, right *now* I'm doing ok. I think I'd be dealing with the birth a LOT better if I could at least *#&$ing breastfeed without a stupid SNS. The two issues, my birth, and the huge problems with breastfeeding are very linked for me. I feel like I failed with the birth, and am failing with breastfeeding. I *know* I did what I needed for the safety of my baby, and I *know* I'm doing EVERYTHING I can to make breastfeeding work, but I still feel like a failure.

I think one of the things I feel worst about is how I feel like I let the doctors and nurse 'boss' me around. I was scared, and lost, and out of my element, and the 'experts' wanted me to do this and that, and I did just what they wanted. Which yes, considering I was more concerned with my baby's health, makes sence, but wow did it make me feel disimpowered.

The hard times are like 3am, when ds is screaming, I'm fiddling w/ the SNS in the dark, and dh is snoring away. In the day, especially when I an shower, brush my hair, and get out of the house I'm usually doing pretty ok.

It doesn't help that my dh is thrilled we now don't owe the midwives that big chunk of $. He understands I really wanted my homebirth, but he didn't 'get' it you know? He always thought "the hospital is just fine". Don't get me wrong, he's being very supportive, and knew the homebirth was important to me, but he doesn't truly "get it".

ds is fussing, gotta go...


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

boy, Lisa Lynn,
how I can relate! I *try* to think of our SNS as a big help that has allowed me to continue breastfeeding, but most of the time I just want to throw it across the room! I am only having to sup about 8-10 oz per day, so I know your situation is more extreme. I definitely feel like the issues around the birth & around breastfeeding have become one thing to me, or at least have a lot of continuity. Like you said, serious breast feeding struggles have alot of the same emotional components AND you are faced with them over & over again all day long! It is so easy for me to get caught up in feeling like I'm not doing anything right for DS & really beat myself up as a mom. Sometimes I wonder why all this has to be so hard & I blame it on not seeing him be born~ maybe that's why I feel like such an "unbonded" failure. DH is usually pretty "there" for me, but even so he thinks as long as "everyone is healthy" there's not much to talk about. He is starting to get it tho that if I am going to get over it, I have to talk about it.

I guess it is 2 steps forward, 1 step back bcz a couple weeks ago I was thinking we were doing so good & now we are back to alot of miscues & crying, etc. Maybe it's just teething, but I feel so overpowered by his needs sometimes.

thanks all for such a good discussion & support, Maria


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## dlb (Feb 7, 2002)

Hi SpiralWoman--

I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread by defining it, sorry. If some of us need to ponder the political aspects of our births and interventions, I have no right to say not to go there.

Its just an issue with me, how sometimes people wanted to push the politics of birth without regard for my feelings-- for example, yammering about the high percentage of c-births, when I was really hurting over mine, and just needed to talk about how I felt. Thats all, its my issue, and I appologize for putting it out there as a ground rule in your thread.

Hope everyone gets through this, at what ever stage they are at!

DeAnna


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## deb_n (Dec 6, 2001)

SpiralWoman,

I am with you also, still healing slowly, but still some hurts 21 months later. As another mama stated so well, since we do not plan to have more, I have lost my chance for a natural birth. I am a nurse myself, even worked high risk perinatal decades before motherhood. And it was because of those years of sometimes unnecessary intervention that it was an easy decision to choose my midwife and homebirth route. When my water broke and labor just would not kick in days later (we followed a very careful protocol of aseptic technique-no vaginal exams, monitoring temperature, etc so we-hubby, I and midwife felt safe going beyond the standard 24 hrs that is really due to hospital introduced factors), we finally had to go in to the hospital to be induced on the 3rd day. I grieved for that loss of our more personal plans, but have worked hard to "forgive" myself (as if I needed to) for that "failure to progress". It was also our choice to go to a smaller, local hospital where our midwife could accompany us, but choosing that smaller facility also probably added to the odds that lead to our csection, since smaller hospitals tend to react more quickly to things that larger centers-often with more experienced staff and 24 hr OR's-can be more relaxed about. That adds a little grief, but also counter that with the huge comfort and benefit our having our midwife as advocate and friend by our side to ease many other frustrations What can still anger me now, and makes it difficult to heal, are the ways that tradition-bound, uninformed care providers added to our anticipatory grieving by denying us many of our legal patient rights unnecessarily. After a brief time on Pitocin I worried that I was getting tired (we had had 3 days with little sleep) and started to rethink the Epidural. Later it turned out I had advanced from 1 to 5 cm in a brief time-that info would have given me strength to go longer-and the Epidural was the straw that dropped by BP, therefore my son's heart rate, and lead to the Csection. After barely glancing at my son, who was absolutely stable and perfect, he was taken out by a nurse who insisted it was the law to give the meds within an hour. (not true, no time constraints) It was only my midwife's persistence, and some kinder recovery staff, that finally brought my son there so he could latch and nurse. For the next day that I endured before checking myself out early, it was a bad comedy of struggles with misinformation (the staff acted as if I had had no prenatal care) and invasions of our private time with our son. And as someone else noted, it really hurt when medical friends expressed "relief" that I had had Conor in the hospital, downplayed my grief ("you should be grateful....."), etc.

A long story, but I so agree that the healing process does not happen overnight, but it slowly continues. My midwife happened to have a series of Csections around that same year (bad coincidences, not her screening) and put together a healing circle of 5 or 6 mamas with another friend who is a reiki practioner. We shared, grieved, bonded, and walked a labyrinth in a nature sanctuary where we burned our individual messages of negativity, failure and anger in the center. Someone made us these lovely cards that said something like "even a broken stitch plays a part in the weave". I have needed time and distance to address my issues with the hospital, something I still plan to do to promote the plans my midwife has to work more closely with them. (she is getting inpt privs as a lay midwife, which means that VBAC mamas could still have a midwife delivery-not covered for her otherwise in WA state) As a nurse, I know the RN's are the first barrier to a positive experience due to tradition and sadly some ignorance. I believe when I can take action to help change this another piece of my heart will heal.

Much love for all of you in your healing,

Deb


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

hi again, I'm on a roll with time to post today~

hi DeAnna~ I so respect your issue with the "politics" thing. I can be that "foot in my mouth" pushy person sometimes & I regret how much I can hurt others. It is something I am trying to really work on bcz I want so much to be able to advocate outspokenly for natural birth, midwifery, & homebirth. 2 (maybe 3?) out of 6 of the moms from my Bradley class ended up with C-Secs, my sister had 1, etc. You are right, this def shouldn't be a place for people to pound out stats, etc.

I also want to apologize to everybody if it looked like I was asserting "ownership rights" over this thread! I really just want to be a participant here & respect the organic nature of discussions like this.

deb n~ thanks for your story & for sharing your healing ritual with us, it certainly sounds powerful. I have talked to my DH about trying to find a way to symbolize my birthing & becoming a mother in a more sacred way than it actually happened: PUUUUSH! PuuuSH! now blowblowblowblow....







: Makes me sad that I need to do that, but I have to play the hand I was dealt & quit regretting so much. (BTW, aren't labyrynths wonderful???)

blessings to all~ maria


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Reading all of these posts has brought up so many emotions in me.

I do think it is so amazing that most if not all of us were so careful in our pregnancies, and read and learned as much as we could. That we took care of ourselves the best way we knew how, and yet, here we all are. I do believe, like XM said, a lot of it is just chance or luck. I don't know how else to explain it.

To all of the mamas that ended up in the hospital, who wanted a home birth,









I know exactly how it feels.









My dd was a planned homebirth but ended up being born in the hospital because she decided she wanted to join us at 35 weeks. I think the hardest thing for me was, I'd had a successful hb with my ds, 19 months before that, and he'd was over 10 lbs, so it never even entered into my head during dd's pregnancy that I wouldn't have her at home. For the first couple days after she was born, I kept waiting to wake up from the nightmare. I was in such shock.

My sweet baby girl is going to be 3 this month, and I can say that for the most part I am better at dealing with everything we went through surrounding her birth and the first ten days of her life. I know I'll never forget it, but at least it doesn't hurt to breathe when I think about it.

The first six months following her birth were so awful. I was in such depression and a panicked place, all the time. I felt like such a huge failure because of all the things that were forced on both her and I at the hospital. They didn't care about my wishes, or her, or anything. We managed to escape some things, but other things, we weren't so lucky.

I beat myself up for so long about not having her in the car, on the way. I knew she was healthy, but concern for the 'what ifs' and the unknown over rode that. I know I was right to think of her first, and my feelings about hospitals and interventions second.

I'm done with regrets, and what ifs, and should haves and all of that. But it still hurts, sometimes. And I think that some parts just always will.

I've found it most helpful to just focus on her, and not the past. Her sweet, precious beautiful self and her amazing smile have healed me in ways I never thought possible. She is such a gift to me.

And, I still have hope that maybe someday I'll have another chance to have a gentle, peaceful home birth. It's my dream.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Another person who planned a homebirth and was royally fucked over by nearly everyone involved.

1) AFTER my water broke (after a week of severe stress induced by the sadistic midwife....who I have filed a complaint against with the state licensing board), the midwife NEVER came, she said I was not in active labor because I could talk through my contractions and she called the next morning and said "You are outside my practice". Btw, I had back labor.

2) It is decided that I'm going to the hospital. This is sooooo not what I wanted because I AM TERRIFIED OF HOSPITALS because I was raised by a manipulative person with Munchausen's by Proxy and I would have rather died than go into a hospital. But, I was exhausted and I wasn't given time to fight it and I was hustled into a cab and off to the hospital. And, I just fell back on my method of dealing when I was a kid...which was to just become totally passive and keep praying for death. (I did get to die in one illness, but those bastard medical heroes brought me back kicking and screaming and THEN EXPECTED ME TO BE GRATEFUL FOR IT.)

3) Forget about all the brutal details. Basically, you can imagine it as I was punished by everyone at the hospital (which was not the backup, just the closest) for even having considered a homebirth.

4) ...

5) I was cut and I tore through the pereneum and the anus. It was stitched up badly and my anus was sewn up (essentially) and it wasn't until six months later that my SEVERE and DAILY pain associated with any bowel movement (including flatulence) was figured out and I had to GO IN FOR MORE SURGERY. I was terrified all over again.

So, now I don't have the severe pain with the bowel movement. But, I am aware of the scar everytime I go to the toilet.

And, with nearly 99.9% of the people I have told this story to, their response is "But you have a beautiful baby boy. Wasn't it worth it?"

My answer is "NO! I was and am merely a vessel then. I got to be raped by the medical profession and forced to have a pregnancy outcome that was 'favorable' to the child and EXTREMELY UNFAVORABLE TO ME. So, the only thing that matters is the baby? Thanks a whole f*&$ing lot."

Most people can't take that. Most seem to be thoroughly programmed to be revolted by pain and rage.

This event, that was just supposed to be a part of my life, has taken over my life. I am now a virtual cripple on some days. And, no, it was not worth it.

edited to add: the episiotomy tore through muscle and nerve ending as well and affected the ligaments in my back that run up to the spine and neck. I now have a migrane at least once a week. Even after that "corrective" surgery. I also have fantasies of doing a Rambo at several medical schools and hospitals. I am enraged by people who "choose" to have births at hospitals because they are creating the "market" for interventionist births and they, out of fear, created the hospital birth as a mainstream birth. If there were no obstetricians, we would have a large supply of midwives. And I could have had a bigger selection to make a choice from.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Sorry you had to go through all that. No, the baby is not the only one who matters, the mother is just as important! Maybe the most important thing is that both come out alive and healhty, but it's also very important that the mother has a good experience. A good experience and a live baby are not mutually exclusive, as doctors would like you to believe.

Sorry your dh is being a b!tch too. My dh wasn't that bad, but he has no regrets about the hospital and is always commenting on what a good job the doctor did. He even blamed dd's bruising on "my pelvic bones" rather than the obvious forceps, even though the ped told him it was due to the forceps as well. Not exactly the thing to make me feel ok about my body, to tell me it injured my baby...

If you are planning for another one, I hope you get what you want. Whatever was up with your midwife?!

This "the baby is more important" attitude is what led to this one court-ordered c/s: The mom was dying of cancer and was ordered to have a c/s for the safety of the baby...the baby was given a 60% chance of survival and the mom a 40% chance if the surgery was done...since the baby was more important, they did the surgery, and in 2 days they both died.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

No, Greaseball, I am most certainly NOT going to have another one. The scar is so big and the whole pelvic floor has such problems, ...

No clue what was the midwife's story. She is one with, supposedly, loads of experience and has been part of the New York birthing scene for 25 years. She deserves to rot in hell. There were LOADS of doozies that came out of her mouth, most of them in the last month and a half.


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

hi SOHJ~
I'm really glad you could come here & unload! You make a great point about the women who chose intervention based obstetrics creating the market that affects those of us wanting a natural birth. It is so too bad that the medical establishment keeps our options so well hidden. In that regard, I just went to my Bradley class reunion, & of all 6 couples, I was the only 1 to have a natural birth & 3 of 6 had C-Secs! And these are couples who spent $255 on a class & who knows how much other time on learning about their bodies & birth (in my case 5 years!), women who really wanted a natural birth & 50% C-Sec. It is such an indictment of the system! Unfortunately, the system doesn't even see any of this as a poor outcome bcz both mother & baby are ok. So there is no pressure to improve, except from us crazy mamas!
blessings, Maria


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Sohj,

I'm so sorry that you had such a horrible experience. My heart just hurts for you.
















I remember a couple months back you did a thread on how you hoped your husband would be there for you during labor, and I'm so sorry that he wasn't. That just sucks.

And it's awful that your midwife caused such stress and problems for you. Ugh. I agree, so much, that if women would just realize they could have choices about where and when to give birth, maybe more of us could have better birth experiences.

I hope you can heal, physically and emotionally. And that people in your circle of life are more tactful and understanding and caring about YOU.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Alison74: knowing there are "choices" isn't enough. The reason I ended up with the midwife I did is because there are only 7 (SEVEN!!!!!) homebirth midwives in New York City. We have 16 million people in the greater metro area and, how many was it again?, SEVEN homebirth midwives.

So, the desperate people who are constantly TTC and are taking a test every day are going to be the ones who get the decent ones first. I didn't know I was pregnant until 2.5 mos. into it. So, I got the dregs, obviously. I also had a couple of psycho-hippies insinuate that since I wasn't in touch with my body enough to know I was pregnant (? I was 35, we were using birth control, I was still getting my period--wtf?) I shouldn't even consider "taking up the time" of a earth-mother like a midwife. (Which is reminding me of the fact these same people don't like the fact I'm an engineer and work out of the home...I better not start on that.)

I'm always hearing about these people who are studying midwifery to "heal" or to get in touch with their inner wise woman or who started studying midwifery but then became doulas instead. Well, after my experiences, I wonder about that. If someone studys midwifery, why not practice? Eh? Maybe someone NEEDS you. Maybe it is not about YOU but about the OTHER WOMEN IN THE WORLD. Eh?

Do I sound a little angry? Do I care?


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I hear you, sohj. And let it out, let it all come out.









I'm in Chicago, and from what I hear, Illinois and New York are the two worst states to try to have a homebirth in. It's a-legal or illegal. Either way, the state is not gungho on midwife assisted home births.

I'm pretty sure there's only about 7 or 8 midwives in the Chicagoland area, and most of them had to either stop their practices or go underground when the state cracked down over three years ago. We do have some homebirth doctors in Illinois, but I don't have too much good to say about them, so I won't get into that. I won't use them, that's all I know.

The midwife that delivered ds is one of the strongest women I know. She's been hounded by the state for years, and she's fought and fought, but I don't think much good or much progress has come from it for her.

So I think maybe one reason why there aren't more midwives in some states (our two especially) is because it does take a very strong women, mentally and emotionally. Not only do they have to deal with women giving birth, but also with the government and lawyers, and licenses, and all that.

How can you be there for a birth when you are in court or before some board to justify your midwifery? It was a joke that when I went into labor with dd (if she had stayed in a couple more weeks), I might have to call my midwife in jail, because she was in the thick of things that month.

I'm just rambling here, I don't have any answers, but I do have some understanding on where you are coming from.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

posted by Alison74:

Quote:

I'm just rambling here, I don't have any answers, ...
Yeah, me too.







:

Except my rambling is at the top of my lungs and has probably derailed this thread. Sorry, SpiralWoman.

I had meant to write the whole birth story and post it in the proper place months and months ago...with every gory detail for the whole pregnancy...but after I had to relive it for the investigator for the Licensing Board, I couldn't do it again. And, I felt really, really guilty for going to the Licensing Board. There are so few midwives, I felt like I was persecuting someone. But, a close friend of mine (even though I think she is scared witless of me sometimes) was really upset for me and wanted me to report her. (My friend is in the alternative health field, too.) She was also the only person who warned me off the midwife--well, someone else claims that she did, too, but I remember the occasion well and it wasn't a clear enough warning except in retrospect. I'm not very good at innuendo sometimes. But, I felt trapped into choosing the one I did and neither of us expected the outcome that happened. I mean, I could have dealt with being bullied, but not with total abandonment after a week and a bit of blame and abuse. (And I was 18 days post date by the due-date ultra sound...so you can imagine the abuse I also got at the hospital. I got treated like a homeless crack addict.)

Btw, just to finish off this OT interlude: during my search for a midwife, I called someone who used to live in NYC and work as a doula and who had, I've now been told, worked with the midwife who abandoned me. I SPECIFICALLY asked her if there was anyone she would NOT recommend...and she said no. I've been told that the reason she left NYC was because she couldn't stand to work with this woman any longer. I really, really hope that my source has her information wrong. Even though she wasn't a friend, just an acquaintence, I feel very betrayed by that if it is true.

edited to make something clearer


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