# I'm going to throw up UPDATE # 144



## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

if this couple I'm working with has a boy. I'm a doula, had a prenatal with a couple tonight, she's due in 2 freaking weeks, they are a friend's brother and his wife, I thought they would come around, I really did, I thought they would be smart about it. Remember that article in my local paper? Apparently, it only proved to him that it's his choice, he's read the pros and cons, blah blah blah, completely shut down.

Oh please let it be a girl. I'll have such a hard time finding joy in that room if it's a boy.

I told her to check with her doc and find out about the pain meds they use, and told her nothing was unacceptable, as was tylenol, and to ask if dad would be able to go with baby, since he deserved to have someone who loved him in the room, and not to be surprised if she had problems breastfeeding. this was all when dad had left the room that I said this part. he was a complete ass about it and just couldn't get past the "well it's our choice, that's what we've decided, pros and cons, our choice" bs.

I have never worked with a family who circed before. I've worked with people who were undecided, but they come around. I have to stop working with people I know. That's when it gets hard. I give so much info, about half my packet is circ stuff.

I felt the air get knocked out of me when they said they would. The mom said something about "hopefully we'll have a girl and we won't have to think about that" and I said, " yah, aren't we lucky in this country that the girls are protected?" I admit it was a little sarcastic.







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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

I'd send a loud and clear message to them a.s.a.p. You can tell them that you can no longer work with couples who choose to circumcise; starting now. You can also tell them that it violates too many human rights ethics for you. Many doulas wont do it, so you are not alone. Perhaps it will be an eye-opener to them. We absolutely can not continue to offer our support to the circumcising culture anymore....it just sends the wrong message.


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## sofysmommy (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted because I was told to leave this thread


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

If I were in your position I would completely refund them whatever they have paid and tell them that I simply could not work with them anymore. I really couldn't pin my hopes on a 50/50 chance. What they want to do should it be a boy is sick and wrong. I would not be able to see past that.


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## Jillie (May 24, 2005)

OMG, I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Its a terrible position to be in. I really hope they have a girl.


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

Oh, and I see you're in St. Paul. Just a little over an hour from where my sister had her son mutilated. High circumcision rate in that area, sociatal pressure is high.


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## BamaDude (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
Everybody knows _it's the *child's*_ choice!

Indeed.
Children are a sacred gift we are entrusted with for a time, not property to be modified at our whim.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

I think you should refund their money (however your contract is set up) and tell them there is no way you can support a mother through labor with the thought running through your mind about how, in a few short hours, that perfect newborn boy is going to endure having part of his genitals ampuated.

~Nay


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Coloradoalice- they aren't paying me, this is a sort of friend, they have no money and they are due any minute. I can't dump them. I wish I could, but I can't. Not only would it ruin my relationship with them, but with one of my oldest friends (dad's sister) and her parents. Them circing only ruins one relationship (me and them).

I've been having the "can I work with couple who..." debate for a few years now (not just about circ, other stuff too). One of my best friendds is also a doula and doesn't work with couples who circ. We talk about it all the time. I'm glad she does that. I've always thought (foolishly, apparently) I could help change minds; I've been fairly sucessful at it. I know of at least 3 boys who are intact because I was the doula, and a handful of girls who would have been left intact had they been boys. I was making a difference. But this one is killing me.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm sorry mama, that must be so hard


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

I'm so so sorry you're having to deal with this and so sorry for that sweet baby if s/he is born a boy.







As a future midwife, this is one of the things I'm going to struggle with too.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

That's such a hard situation. Have you thought about explaining to them that as a doula it's very important to you to support moms through the birthing process and to ensure babies have the gentlest welcome possible, and how deeply the possibility of their baby being born a healthy, normal boy and being subjected to such an unnecessary traumatic experience upsets you? Maybe letting them know that you've never had a client do such a thing before, and that you are really uncomfortable attending their birth knowing they're going to circumcise if it's a boy will cause them to rethink whether it's still the norm and/or how invasive/painful/harmful it truly is...just a thought.

(((Hugs))) Momma.

Jen


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
please, I'm hurting here. This is not helpful. I do not believe this "choice" should be left up to the parents.

Coloradoalice- they aren't paying me, this is a sort of friend, they have no money and they are due any minute. I can't dump them. I wish I could, but I can't. Not only would it ruin my relationship with them, but with one of my oldest friends (dad's sister) and her parents. Them circing only ruins one relationship (me and them).

I've been having the "can I work with couple who..." debate for a few years now (not just about circ, other stuff too). One of my best friendds is also a doula and doesn't work with couples who circ. We talk about it all the time. I'm glad she does that. I've always thought (foolishly, apparently) I could help change minds; I've been fairly sucessful at it. I know of at least 3 boys who are intact because I was the doula, and a handful of girls who would have been left intact had they been boys. I was making a difference. But this one is killing me.


But refusing to help them would send a strong message and perhaps they'd reconsider.


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## willowsmama (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm sorry.

I know of atleast one doula in St. Paul that will not work parents that intend to circ. In rereading your post - I'm probably thinking of your friend. Sarah?

Honestly, in your postition i would explain that I'm very sorry but I wouldn't be able to continue working with them. Offer to give them the names of other doulas. While I wish you could change everyone's mind- you can't. I think the stand doulas take in not working with parents that intend to circ makes a very strong statement.

I'm sorry you're hurting.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Willowsmama: I think the stand doulas take in not working with parents that intend to circ makes a very strong statement.
i couldn't agree more with you.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Would you continue to work with them if they were circumcising their daughter?


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## cristina63303 (Apr 3, 2006)

Have they watched "the video"?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Is there any way to convince them to at least delay the circ for a few days, until after BF is well established?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
Is there any way to convince them to at least delay the circ for a few days, until after BF is well established?









: If they were convinced to wait a couple weeks then they could very well change their minds once they saw how perfect their (potential) little boy is. I would talk up delaying and reasons it's good to delay since the father is so adamant and won't listen to reason
















's and good luck!

love and peace.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
Is there any way to convince them to at least delay the circ for a few days, until after BF is well established?

This is what I'm going to work on.

Helen- yep, sarah. I've been leaning that way for so long, this just puts the nail in the coffin. And I agree doulas having this stand is powerful; I'v just always been of the opinion that I could help change people's minds, which I know I have, and that we need many people working at this issue from many perspectives. I just can't be the "mind changer" doula anymore. It's too hard for me when it doesn't work (this is the first time it hasn't worked).

Would I work with them if they were circing a dd? This is exactly what I've been trying to figure out. I'm torn about this, not because of the how I feel necessarily, but because of the timing. If they were due in 2 months, I would have no issue dropping them, they would have time to find someone else. If it wasn't friends, if they weren't broke, if they weren't so clueless.

I dreamt about it all night. I have to do something. I'll send her the link to the video, maybe say I'll talk to them after they watch it. I just don't know. This just sucks.

I have been nauseas ever since last night. I kept waking up and thinking about it. I'm a wreck this morning.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Oh, Rebecca, I'm sorry.

When my brother and his wife were expecting their first, my DH and I talked to her about circumcision. My brother has a circumcised son from a previous marriage, so I was pretty sure I knew what he would do, but she is a smart, thoughtful woman (she teaches special ed), and I thought we had a chance.

But she said they would circ if the baby was a boy (thank God it was a girl). DH and I told her it wasn't recommended, it was painful - the works - and still no go.

Now they're pregnant again. DH and I have been thinking long and hard about how to handle it this time around, and here's what we've come up with. I'm going to send them an e-mail (they live in another state), insisting that every pain control method be used (and explain them), suggesting that they wait at least a week to establish breastfeeding, and describing (in gory detail) aftercare and complications to watch for.

I'm hoping that will scare them into rethinking, but if not, at least the baby will have pain relief, and the parents will know how to care for him. Oh, and I'll also include a bit about loose circumcision - tell them not to be surprised if he doesn't even look circumcised, depending on how much foreskin is left.

My SIL knows how we feel, so there isn't much point in harping about it any more. The best we can hope for now (like you) is to provide the baby with the best possible care during and after his operation.

I feel for you, Rebecca, and I wish people would just LISTEN to us!!!


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:

You can also tell them that it violates too many human rights ethics for you.
I just wanted to quote this. And I want to say this also. As far as getting families to change their minds, most families that I work with aren't sure about circumcision when they meet me. There are some that I "let" hire me not fully knowing if they are going to decide to circumcise. Their choice on where and how they give birth lets me know a lot about the way they view their baby. There have been two couples in four years (doula for 5 1/2) that I haven't worked with. One I could tell in the interview would not change their mind (dad's mind) and one was the awesome couple that floored me with wanting to do it. One had a girl and one circumcised. For both of them, I wouldn't have been able to support this great birth and then watch them mutilate their newborn helpless infant.

*MY ethics are allowed into ANY decision I make.* I get A LOT of crap from people who think I should support all families regardless. They can be pissed at me, but my family matters too. We (both of us) are effected by what we do. We don't leave a birth at the hospital/home. We bring it with us throughout our day. We process it and replay it, whether it is happy or tragic. For us, the mere thought of someone circumcising is enough to make us physcially throw up. You know in your heart that you are right. It is a huge step to make it a reality.

And you will be in this place again, but luckily you won't be the doula.

We need more then one nocirc doula here, Rebecca!

Sarah - intactivist


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

sarah- it's always helpful for me to read words I've already heard, so thank you for typing that out.

I've sent out a request for another doula (we're on a Yahoo group with many doulas in the Twin Cities), so hopefully I can find someone for them. As I was talking to Sarah on the phone earlier, crying, I realized I can't do it. I'll find someone else for them, but it's not fair to anyone involved if I am hoping for a particular outcome at a birth. This couple has so many other issues, and I've really been putting myself out there for them in a way I wouldn't for anyone else, and it's not fair to me, in the end it's not fair to them, and none of this is fair to the baby. So I'm out. I really hope my friend and her mom don't hate me, but I can only control my own feelings, and make a stand where I can.

I told her to look into the pain meds available for the baby, but you know in the end, that only touches on one of the problems I have with circumcising. Yes, I have issues with hurting newborns, but there are also life long ramifications, so insisting on adequate pain meds and someone with the baby is a bandaid.

Sarah also reminded me that my crying at the thought of this is the normal reaction, they are the ones with a weird way of thinking, not me. That helped. (and she liked my siggie so much, she changed hers, didja notice?







)


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

Wow. I am really impressed at how you are handling this. You have gone as far as you can and I think that this couple should realize that. It's unfortunate but if they are insistant on mutilating their son after birth it puts you in such a horrible position. I hope you can find someone to work with them.

There are such ramifications to working with pregnant moms aren't there? It's amazing how knowing what I know, the way I view people, especially those that are properly informed, has changed. I litereally cannot stomach anyone who knows all the facts and does it anyway. It has ruined my relationship with my sister and probably my mom also. I have a friend that is due around Christmas and they circumcised their first, but I know she didn't do much research into it. They aren't going to find out the sex, so I have to be proactive. This time she will be informed, and if she does it I'm sure it will ruin our friendship. I have a hard time even dealing with people who did it out of ignorance. I have a noticable physical response towards those that are informed and do it anyway. It just makes me so sad and angry.


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## Heidi (Jun 17, 2004)

Good for you mamma. Your standing firm sends tingles down my spine. I hope mabie they realize how serious their decision really is. I was ignorant about circumcision when I was pregnant with my son as well. Luckily my husband is a wonderful strong man who would not hear of it. Now, like your siggy says, the more I learn, the worse it gets. I am horrified that circ. is still being practiced and thank each day that my son is intact. Out of ignorance, it would have been so easy to go the other way. You truly are sending a very clear and powerful message. Thankyou







.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

are they Christians?

if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
I'd send a loud and clear message to them a.s.a.p. You can tell them that you can no longer work with couples who choose to circumcise; starting now. You can also tell them that it violates too many human rights ethics for you. Many doulas wont do it, so you are not alone. Perhaps it will be an eye-opener to them. We absolutely can not continue to offer our support to the circumcising culture anymore....it just sends the wrong message.

ditto that.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, mama


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Oh, Rebecca, I'm so sorry that they (and really, the doctors who continue this barbaric practice and society as a whole) have put you in this position. It sounds like you're making the decision that will allow you to be at peace with yourself. You shouldn't have to martyr yourself for the sake of a couple who cannot take their cultural blinders off and act in their baby's best interests rather than their own.

I know that if I were doula or midwife to a couple who were planning on circumcising their baby (of either gender) I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. The baby is a human being with human rights and no baby deserves to be cut.


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## momto3boys (May 15, 2003)

nd_deadhead said:


> Oh, Rebecca, I'm sorry.
> 
> Oh, and I'll also include a bit about loose circumcision - tell them not to be surprised if he doesn't even look circumcised, depending on how much foreskin is left.
> 
> I wouldn't include that. IF they are of the mindset that he MUST be circ'd they could actually REQUEST a tight circ because they heard that loose circs don't look circ'd......................


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

momto3boys said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
> ...


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
are they Christians?

if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

nope. religion has nothing to do with this.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

You said they don't have any money. Are they on medicaid? I don't think medicaid covers circs in MN. If not on medicaid, does their personal insurance pay for it? If they're having to pay out of pocket then they're not all that broke, kwim?


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
You said they don't have any money. Are they on medicaid? I don't think medicaid covers circs in MN. If not on medicaid, does their personal insurance pay for it? If they're having to pay out of pocket then they're not all that broke, kwim?

they have health insurance, both work (lower end jobs) for pharm companies. They said if insurance didn't cover it, they wouldn't do it.

MN doesn't cover it with medicaid.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
they have health insurance, both work (lower end jobs) for pharm companies. They said if insurance didn't cover it, they wouldn't do it.


Were they even listening to themselves when they said that? Basically they're saying, "we want our son to have surgery, but if we have to pay for it ourselves we'll just not bother with it." It must not be that important of a surgery if they can take it or leave it like that.









~Nay


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
Were they even listening to themselves when they said that? Basically they're saying, "we want our son to have surgery, but if we have to pay for it ourselves we'll just not bother with it." It must not be that important of a surgery if they can take it or leave it like that.









~Nay

they weren't thinking, that's the thing. That's why this fight is so







hard. It's not logic based. How do you argue with that?

His eyes glazed over and he just started repeating, "it's our choice, we get to choose, this is what we choose." I heard his voice change.

you want irony? I just got their birth plan and the beginning of it says "We take our responsibility of being good parents very seriously, and want to do what is best for our baby."

Ummmmm, no you don't.







:


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
are they Christians?

if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

I know this wasn't pointed at me, but I'm getting ready to talk about it with my SIL (she is TTC) and her and her husband say they plan to do it for religious reasons, and I would love to show them that being Christian doesn't mean they should circ.

If you could please PM me with this information I would really appreciate it.


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## willowsmama (Jan 11, 2003)

Honestly Rebecca the more you share about these folks the more it seems you should pass them to someone else. They obviously do not trust you or value your opinion. I can't see you being able to well, doula effectively with them blowing you off yk?

And I think I verbed the word doula.lol


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
But refusing to help them would send a strong message and perhaps they'd reconsider.

I have to agree. There is more at stake than family favors, there is child torture & lifelong mutilation to avoid- no one is 'owed' a doula. I'd tell them 'no'- with tears in my eyes, but 'no'. I couldn't be a part of it.

eta- Good choice. Thank you for your courage to make a stand.


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## splash (Aug 30, 2005)

I would dump them, and not even find them someone else. Because I am like that. Because I believe someone isn't entitled to a birth support and pain management if she is not even allowing her child basic human protection.

I would not be able to support someone like that. I didn't go to my nephew's birth because of it, and even though Jean was there, when Jess tore and complained how much it hurt, her words to her were "You deserve it." Right or wrong, I think she did. Unfortunately HER genital pain didn't make her give a rat's tail about her child, who was them circed twice in his first 8 days of life.

You shouldn't be put in this situation. It's not fair to you. You shouldn't be forced to assist in a child being circumcised.


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## rozzie'sma (Jul 6, 2005)

I know it is hard but I would have to tell them I could not help them. Think beyond family favors. Are you really going to be helpful toward this woman knowing what she is going to do to that little boy? I couldn't be I would be praying she has the most painful delivery possible with the deepest episiotomy ever so that she get to feel what she is doing to her son. But I am kind of sick that way. I think it is very odd when women refer to being "butchered" by their OB and then proceed to amputate part of their sons genitals without a second thought.


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## jessikate (Jul 19, 2002)

I'm sorry you're faced with this situation. Hopefully they either change their minds or have a girl.

You mentioned that they don't have much money. Are they on private insurance or Medicaid/MinnesotaCare? Because at least Medicaid doesn't pay for circumcision here. I hope they'd be less inclined to circ if their insurance didn't cover it.

Oh, nevermind. I see that you covered that later on in the thread. Crap.

Unfortunately, in the end it is legally their choice. I really hate that.


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## Christy1980 (Jul 7, 2002)

what a yucky situtaion!









I'm working on becoming a doula, and i plan to be a no circ doula. There is just no way i could be supportive of a woman in labor if i knew she was going to send off her baby to have him mutilated. No way!

I admire you for trying to find them someone else, have you found a replacement yet?







to you, and I hope their insurance won't cover it...and i hope its a girl, too.







:

You've been doing a great job fighting the good fight, it sounds liike you have saved a lot of babies from this stupid surgery. Don't beat yourself up about this, and when they ask you why you wont be thier doula, tell them honestly.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

no replacement yet. I'm still trying to figure out what to do if no one else step sup to take them. My ethics are hard for me either way, the proverbial rock and a hard place. Neither situation leaves me feeling good about it. I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Hugs to you.

Have you let them know you are looking for a replacement yet. If not, maybe you *should* give them a heads up and take it as an opportunity to really let them know how much this just tears you up. How hard it is for you that you feel you are so strongly conflicted that you are looking for a replacement.

Hugs, hugs, hugs.

Jessica


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
no replacement yet. I'm still trying to figure out what to do if no one else step sup to take them. My ethics are hard for me either way, the proverbial rock and a hard place. Neither situation leaves me feeling good about it. I'll let you know how it turns out.


Well, you could do it and everytime she complains about labor hurting tell her she's going to cause her baby even worse pain after he's born. Ok, that's mean, but I'm like that when it comes to circ.

Personally, tell them you can't fulfill your job in that situation and you would be an inneffective doula. Let them know that if they change thier minds you may reconsider.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Oh, that has to be so hard. I don't know that I could be a decent doula, knowing all through the birth that the mama is going to hand that baby over to be hurt like that.

I can't even bring myself to sympathize with a pregnant woman planning to circ when she complains about her hips aching. All I can think is, "oh, you think THAT hurts, do ya honey?!!"

Argh. My sympathies to you. And that baby!


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

you know what's making this harder? I can't get ahold of them!! No phone, they have to call me. I've emailed them that they have to call me, it's very important. AHHHHHHHHH!

I will let them know I'm looking for replacement (if I ever hear from them). Another doula I know suggested finding an apprentice doula to support me through it.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I couldn't do it. No way. I plan to become a midwife after my children are older and I will not accept people who plan to mutilate their children. I just can't do that. To me, not saying no is just as bad as saying it's ok.


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

sorry to be the lone dissenter here. but here goes:

I am vehemently anti-circ myself. HOWEVER, I think you are being incredibly unprofessional agreeing to take on people who have not decided on circ with it in your mind that they will "come around."

Like it or not, circ does happen in this country and the parents have a right to choose it within our current laws. I absolutely applaud those of you out there that refuse to work with people who are going to circ. but i think its just plain wrong to ditch a pregnant woman and get her a replacement after you've been working with them all this time.

and for those of you who are wishing someone to have a deep episiotomy or a tear "because they deserve it." I think you need some professional help. That is such a horrible thing to wish on someone.

I understand your horror at how someone could make the circ decision, but there are a lot of people out there who (even with all the literature you give them) are going to do what they know. its what they've seen their whole life. Esp. if the father is circ'ed and he feels fine about it, he just may be incapable of seeing the truth on the issue.

Again, I know I'm gonna get flamed like mad (I'm ready for it) but I HAD to say something. I am against circ and would not work with someone who circed if I was a doula. But in the future, you need to MAKE THIS CLEAR. Otherwise you are no better than OBs who throw the gauntlet about inductions at the last second, etc. etc. Every professional person needs to be open and honest with who they are working with. Choosing you as their birth assistant was extremely personal for them and they are entering in a trust relationship with you. The fact that you were not honest about your feelings on circ early on and had the idea you would change them is absolutely not acceptable to me.

In the future, please tell couples BEFORE they hire you that you do not work with circ'ing couples.

XOXO
B


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
i think its just plain wrong to ditch a pregnant woman and get her a replacement after you've been working with them all this time.

I think it's wrong too, hence my reluctance to do it. BUT-- I haven't been working with them "all this time." I met with them briefly in June, then they essentially ignored my many calls to get together for 2 months. Finally, they called and wanted to get together again. Had they told me they would circ and nothing I said would convince them otherwise, I would have said, "ok, here's the names of other doulas. good luck to you." but they didn't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
and for those of you who are wishing someone to have a deep episiotomy or a tear "because they deserve it." I think you need some professional help. That is such a horrible thing to wish on someone.

I want to be clear that I do not wish birth trauma on anyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
But in the future, you need to MAKE THIS CLEAR...The fact that you were not honest about your feelings on circ early on and had the idea you would change them is absolutely not acceptable to me.

I don't take people planning on changing thier minds. I tend to work ith couples who are research oriented and open minded, who once they think about it for one second don't circ. This couple was not someone like that. I agreed to meet with them not because we clicked, but because they are family of a friend. They were dishonest with me. I was honest with them about my feelings about circumcision. I told them my feelings about circ in the very first meeting. I gave them all sorts of info, and told them I thought it was horrific. They indicated they would research, that they were conflicted about it. They didn't, they weren't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
In the future, please tell couples BEFORE they hire you that you do not work with circ'ing couples.

Plan to. thanks for the tip.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
Like it or not, circ does happen in this country and the parents have a right to choose it within our current laws.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you really didn't intend to use this as part of your larger arguement. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it's moral or ethical







: . If we were referring to female genitalia would you be so quick to cite its legality?


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

DNR,
Thanks for clearing these points up for me. From your original post, I only gathered that she was due in two weeks and that you took other clients who would "come around" on this issue. This changes things a lot. I would drop them also! Best of luck to you!
XOXO
B

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
I think it's wrong too, hence my reluctance to do it. BUT-- I haven't been working with them "all this time." I met with them briefly in June, then they essentially ignored my many calls to get together for 2 months. Finally, they called and wanted to get together again. Had they told me they would circ and nothing I said would convince them otherwise, I would have said, "ok, here's the names of other doulas. good luck to you." but they didn't.

I want to be clear that I do not wish birth trauma on anyone.

I don't take people planning on changing thier minds. I tend to work ith couples who are research oriented and open minded, who once they think about it for one second don't circ. This couple was not someone like that. I agreed to meet with them not because we clicked, but because they are family of a friend. They were dishonest with me. I was honest with them about my feelings about circumcision. I told them my feelings about circ in the very first meeting. I gave them all sorts of info, and told them I thought it was horrific. They indicated they would research, that they were conflicted about it. They didn't, they weren't.

Plan to. thanks for the tip.


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
If we were referring to female genitalia would you be so quick to cite its legality?

There is no way for me to answer that seeing as how i was not brought up in a culture who does that (thankfully).

I guess its hard to convey the point that while I abhor circ, I also *understand* why some people in the U.S. still do it. Habits that are culturally engrained are hard to break. The tides are turning, and spreading information is directly responsible.

However, i do not think that parents in the U.S. that do circ do so because they want to hurt or mutilate their child. KWIM?

XOXO
B


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

ok, I got a replacement, but I still can't get ahold of this family. I really don't want to do it via email, but that seems to be the only way to reach them. I keep emailing them with short "call me, my #s are ________. very important/ call today." messages, to which they reply "I'll call tonight after 9" or similar things. Still nothing. The last one I sent said for her to call me this morning before work. we'll see.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

It seems to me you have gone above and beyond the call of duty. If they can't be bothered to call you back, then I think it is legit (and necessary) to go ahead and let them know by email. They haven't been very respectful or courteous towards you, IMO. Doula means with woman, not martyred for the cause.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisie125*
I know this wasn't pointed at me, but I'm getting ready to talk about it with my SIL (she is TTC) and her and her husband say they plan to do it for religious reasons, and I would love to show them that being Christian doesn't mean they should circ.

If you could please PM me with this information I would really appreciate it.

Actually, it's simple: ask what the Christian circumcision ceremony is like. Is it done at the church, or in your home? Are family and friends invited? Does the minister do it, or does the church train circumcision specialists?

If there is no ceremony involved, it doesn't sound like much of a religious thing to me. If a doctor sprinkles water on a baby's head, is that considered a baptism?


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking
A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Wow. What a tough place you're in.

I can say that I doula-ed for a client (and friend) who chose to circumcise. I told her all the stuff, and she eventually left it up to her husband, who chose to do it. Her birth was tough for me to leave--I knew what was coming, but in the end, I am very glad I supported her. She needed my support in labor. It never occurred to me to stop supporting her; no matter what my belief is, it's just not how I view my job.

If it makes you feel any better at all, this same client, who has 2 circed boys told me she would NEVER circ another baby. No matter what. It makes me feel so much better knowing that my support of her and my openness with the circ issue did change someone, even if it was too late to save her son.

Hope all is well.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking
A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:

I guess you can just think of me a bad doula then.

I agree a doula is hired to help with the birth, but if I can't do that because of my personal beliefs, I should not be there.

I DO notify people about my anti-circ bias. I do, from the very beginning. After this, I realize how much more strongly I need to state this, as opposed to assuming they understand. This is a lesson for me. Just like I talk about my very important role in helping establish breastfeeding, they have plenty of time to figurer out that I am expecting bf-ing. If they aren't planning to bf (which I've never had to deal with), I would hope that after my "I will stay until bf-ing is established, then visit a few days later after your milk is in to hel pwith bf-ing again" they would tell me they aren't bf-ing. And you know what? I don't feel as strongly about bf-ing as I do about circumcision, which is a big shock to me actually. I am definitely biased towards bf-ing, but I have seen people lovingly bottlefeed babies. You can't lovingly cut off part of a baby's penis. And I talk a big talk about gentle parenting. All of the books I recommend have a gentle slant. I'm a API leader as well; everyone I interview with knows this, not just those who hire me. People hire me partly because of my beliefs. I dont' believe all doulas are the same and should all offer the same stuff. I'm glad there are those out there who will support those women who I can't. Not won't, CAN'T!

What about you? would you work with someone who was going to toss the baby in the trash as soon as it was born, just so she got a good birth? I get to make moral decisions about who I surround myself with. So do you. I have to live with MY choices, not you.

Did you even read my reponse to Beth? Even she forgave me after getting more clarification.

and now for some lightness, dd wants to add some smilies:














:










































:



































:














:


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking
A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:

Well, she's in business for herself, she's not publicly funded, so she can pretty much refuse to take anyone she wants. If her would-be clients don't like it, they can find someone else.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:
Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking

A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.
Welcome to my world, Rebecca. Choosing to stand up against gential mutilation will at times, make you go against others faith. (I won't pursue this further as I don't want this thread pulled). "Luckily" for the doulas here that do not support circumcision in the United States, *it crosses all religious, racial, financial, and cultural barriers.* *EVERYONE does it!*! WOO HOO!! So we can be prejudice against them all! YAY.

Everyone can do it. Circumcision is the option of every American. I will not support it at all.

Quote:

the parents have a right to choose

And so does the doula.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

I just talked with the mom. She knew it was coming. I told her I was really upset after out meeting last week, came home and had to do a lot of soul searching. I realized I couldn't be what she needed from me, she interrupted me and said, "I don't think so either," so at least it's mutual! We talked a bit more, she said it was hard because she really likes me, so she doesn't want this to get in the way of the times we have to be around each other, I said I liked her too, and I didn't want that either. I also told her it seemed she was conflicted about it, and she inticated that they felt like they had to look ito it more after my reaction on Thursday. I told her I didn't have "the research about the emotional side of it, but if you need science, I have tons of stuff." She even admitted that the logic of doing it only if the insurance covers it is really messed up.

I feel so relieved. Thank you to everyone who helped me find my way, even the people who didn't think I was doing the right thing. Even they helped me realize how strongly I feel.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
sorry to be the lone dissenter here. but here goes:

I am vehemently anti-circ myself. HOWEVER, I think you are being incredibly unprofessional agreeing to take on people who have not decided on circ with it in your mind that they will "come around."

Like it or not, circ does happen in this country and the parents have a right to choose it within our current laws. I absolutely applaud those of you out there that refuse to work with people who are going to circ. but i think its just plain wrong to ditch a pregnant woman and get her a replacement after you've been working with them all this time.

and for those of you who are wishing someone to have a deep episiotomy or a tear "because they deserve it." I think you need some professional help. That is such a horrible thing to wish on someone.

I understand your horror at how someone could make the circ decision, but there are a lot of people out there who (even with all the literature you give them) are going to do what they know. its what they've seen their whole life. Esp. if the father is circ'ed and he feels fine about it, he just may be incapable of seeing the truth on the issue.

Again, I know I'm gonna get flamed like mad (I'm ready for it) but I HAD to say something. I am against circ and would not work with someone who circed if I was a doula. But in the future, you need to MAKE THIS CLEAR. Otherwise you are no better than OBs who throw the gauntlet about inductions at the last second, etc. etc. Every professional person needs to be open and honest with who they are working with. Choosing you as their birth assistant was extremely personal for them and they are entering in a trust relationship with you. The fact that you were not honest about your feelings on circ early on and had the idea you would change them is absolutely not acceptable to me.

In the future, please tell couples BEFORE they hire you that you do not work with circ'ing couples.

XOXO
B

I have not worked as a 'doula' per se, but I have had doula training and as a birth assistant working with midwives in birth center and homebirths much of my role at births is supporting women in a doula-like way throughout labor, so I'll share my thoughts.

You know, I do really understand where you're coming from, and when it comes to wishing birth trauma on a woman as a price for what she's planning on subjecting her child to, I agree. We shouldn't wish pain, trauma, damage on anyone to 'teach them a lesson'.

I also can empathize with your feelings about accepting a pregnant woman as a doula client, hoping she'll come around on the circumcision issue. I don't think it's acceptable to be dishonest, while at the same time I think taking on such a client provides a doula with an incredible amount of opportunity to gently share the truth about circumcision; most loving, naturally-oriented mommas will 'get it'. If the doula had never worked with them to begin with, because they initially were considering circumcising...they may not have received the information and guidence necessary to make an ethical, respectful, informed choice.

If I were working as a doula right now, I think I'd make sure I discussed circumcision in the initial intervew. Honestly, I'm not even sure I'd want to doula a woman who wasn't committed to at least attempting breastfeeding (unless there was a medical reason for not doing so). It's not that I think all women don't deserve an empowering birth experience, it's that I don't think I have it in myself to not contribute negative or resentful energy at a birth where I know the woman is planning to make obvious/significant poor or harmful choices with her child. This is especially true if she or a partner who's opinion she respects/falls in line with was not open to learning more about relevent childbirth newborn care issues. I can't help someone who doesn't help themself.

Also, is it possible that being completely up front about not working with couples who circumcise may make a moderately crunchy parent who's not circing but isn't exactly an intactivist view a doula as judgemental or pushy? And if they otherwise like the doula, or she is the most affordable/available/whatever...might they LIE to her if they were planning on circing?

Maybe we should start a thread to discuss ways of talking about circumcision during the initial intervew, how to probe women/couples for their feelings on the topic, how to test the waters to determine whether or not they're open to learning more...and how to broach leaving their son's penis whole as a condition for our employment?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me...A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:

Doula's are not obligated to work with women they aren't comfortable with or don't 'click' with. I could not work with a woman who planned on having her daughter or son's genitals mutilated; sorry, but I don't see that on the same level as many other parenting decisions, like spanking or even breastfeeding. Circumcision guarentees damage; it permanently removes healthy tissue from the genitals of a non-consenting minor. It normally occurs soon after birth, while the newborn is adjusting to life outside the womb and is (usually/hopefully) trying to get the hang of breastfeeding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
And you know what? I don't feel as strongly about bf-ing as I do about circumcision, which is a big shock to me actually. I am definitely biased towards bf-ing, but I have seen people lovingly bottlefeed babies. You can't lovingly cut off part of a baby's penis. And I talk a big talk about gentle parenting....What about you? would you work with someone who was going to toss the baby in the trash as soon as it was born, just so she got a good birth? I get to make moral decisions about who I surround myself with. So do you. I have to live with MY choices, not you.











Jen


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
I just talked with the mom. She knew it was coming. I told her I was really upset after out meeting last week, came home and had to do a lot of soul searching. I realized I couldn't be what she needed from me, she interrupted me and said, "I don't think so either," so at least it's mutual! We talked a bit more, she said it was hard because she really likes me, so she doesn't want this to get in the way of the times we have to be around each other, I said I liked her too, and I didn't want that either. I also told her it seemed she was conflicted about it, and she inticated that they felt like they had to look ito it more after my reaction on Thursday. I told her I didn't have "the research about the emotional side of it, but if you need science, I have tons of stuff." She even admitted that the logic of doing it only if the insurance covers it is really messed up.

I feel so relieved. Thank you to everyone who helped me find my way, even the people who didn't think I was doing the right thing. Even they helped me realize how strongly I feel.

Wow, I admire you SO much for taking a stand and telling it like it is. You're refusal to work with this couple is already making them realize that circumcision is a far more significant/serious decision than they'd thought. You're reaction made them think, "Gee...She thinks this is a really big deal. Maybe it IS. Let's look into it more..." and that in itself is an INCREDIBLE ACCOMPLISHMENT. I am SO proud of you, and I think you're setting a wonderful example of 'conscientious objection'.

Jen


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture*
Wow, I admire you SO much for taking a stand and telling it like it is. You're refusal to work with this couple is already making them realize that circumcision is a far more significant/serious decision than they'd thought. You're reaction made them think, "Gee...She thinks this is a really big deal. Maybe it IS. Let's look into it more..." and that in itself is an INCREDIBLE ACCOMPLISHMENT. I am SO proud of you, and I think you're setting a wonderful example of 'conscientious objection'.

Jen

Thank you.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Just to be clear, I agree that if you or any individual doula feels she'd be morally compromised by working with a family that circs, her choice is clear.

However, I do wonder how everyone would feel about an OB who refused to continue providing care for a pregnant woman because she had had an abortion, abused her other children, committed adultery, or anything else he personally disapproved of. Is it really his business?


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
Just to be clear, I agree that if you or any individual doula feels she'd be morally compromised by working with a family that circs, her choice is clear.

However, I do wonder how everyone would feel about an OB who refused to continue providing care for a pregnant woman because she had had an abortion, abused her other children, committed adultery, or anything else he personally disapproved of. Is it really his business?

I think there's a difference between a past choice and something that the the mother is currently contemplating/planning/insisting upon.

Jen


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## laneylue (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
I just talked with the mom. She knew it was coming. I told her I was really upset after out meeting last week, came home and had to do a lot of soul searching. I realized I couldn't be what she needed from me, she interrupted me and said, "I don't think so either," so at least it's mutual! We talked a bit more, she said it was hard because she really likes me, so she doesn't want this to get in the way of the times we have to be around each other, I said I liked her too, and I didn't want that either. I also told her it seemed she was conflicted about it, and she inticated that they felt like they had to look ito it more after my reaction on Thursday. I told her I didn't have "the research about the emotional side of it, but if you need science, I have tons of stuff." She even admitted that the logic of doing it only if the insurance covers it is really messed up.

I feel so relieved. Thank you to everyone who helped me find my way, even the people who didn't think I was doing the right thing. Even they helped me realize how strongly I feel.

I applaud you, as well. As far as I'm concerned, legal or not, circumcision is a human rights issue and if you don't feel comfortable working with a particular client, you don't have to. You aren't obligated to work with anyone.

On a side note: I hope that couple comes around and changes their mind before it's too late.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradoalice*
If I were in your position I would completely refund them whatever they have paid and tell them that I simply could not work with them anymore. I really couldn't pin my hopes on a 50/50 chance. What they want to do should it be a boy is sick and wrong. I would not be able to see past that.

This is what I would do. JMO. If I were hiring a doula I would want someone's total support. And I know if I were the doula of such a couple there would be this big elephant in the room the whole time and I wouldn't be able to give my full support- what a laboring woman needs, deserves, and on top of that has paid me for.

A few times parents have had their babies transfered to a different hospital for a particular surgery we don't do and at the same time have circed their boys so they come back to our unit afterward with circed penises. I totally admit I am not a good nurse to these peopel after they come back. I give their little boys good health care but I am not nice to the parents. And I acknowlege this. I am trying to learn to be better and more supportive but I have not learned how to do it yet when they have chosen to mutilate their sons for cosmetic reasons. I am terse and cold and I can't help it. SO I know it would be unfair for someone to hire me for a doula when I know I couldn't give them the sweet warm support they deserve. I would be really hung up on the circ issue and if it was a boy I know I would be rude to them after the birth. I can't support it and pretending like it's not going to happen would feel to me like I am condoning it.

That is just me though. I am sure their are doulas, maybe you are one, who would be able to keep the two area seperate in your head and be a good doula, I know I couldn't. I'd give them a refund and say sorry.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's
Mamabadger,

I have a question for you. What makes your "anti-circ credentials" _so good_ may I ask? What exactly *do you do* to actively end RIC? Please enlighten me.

Thanks.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Oh, they aren't even paying you?

Screw them and stop worrting about "hurting their feelings" and how this is going to effect the relationship you have with the family members you mentioned. I am trying not to talk like I am yelling at you mama but you need to be stronger and stand up for what you believe. You can't let yourself be emotionally blackmailed just because it is family and friends involved. Even the more reason for you to step down right now and say soory, I can't do it. The sooner you tell them no, the more time they have to find other support. I hope the dad realizes that his perverted drive to mutilate his son "to look like him" has caused his wife to lose some really great free labor support. I hope he realizes he is a total ass. Sorry. I have never been one to let family or friends feelings make me do something I don't believe in. But I'm stubborn like that.

Good, I read further and it looks like you are going to step down? Great! I think that this is still good in that hopefully other potential doulas are reading this and will have the guts to stand up and say no to these types of clients (I'm sorry I come across as such a cold beeyotch







)


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## kristenok18 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
are they Christians?

if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

I would love this info, also. My sil is about to be married, and I know that once they have children they will be pro-circ. Religios info would be one way that we *might* get them to listen to us.

Thanks!

Kristen


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
However, I do wonder how everyone would feel about an OB who refused to continue providing care for a pregnant woman because she had had an abortion, abused her other children, committed adultery, or anything else he personally disapproved of. Is it really his business?

Why not use an analogy with the topic we're currently discussing?

How would you feel about an OB that refused to continue to provide care for a pregnant woman when he knew he was going to deliver a child that she would want circumcised?


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Coming in late here, but I read the entire thread. You did the right thing. You did the only thing you could do in good conscience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
Just to be clear, I agree that if you or any individual doula feels she'd be morally compromised by working with a family that circs, her choice is clear.

mamabadger, I'm still a little confused (I know, you were trying to clear things up!) You're anti-circumcision. How do you deal with the knowledge that parents who circumcise are planning to commit a human rights violation on the baby they are birthing with you? How do you separate that out, so that you are not thinking of it during the birth? It is so important to me that baby boys' genital integrity is protected... it isn't something I can turn off. It simmers in the back of my mind at all times (and sometimes boils on the front burner!







) So if I were a doula, I'd be like those in this thread who have said they could not provide support to a couple who plan to circumcise. This issue is just too big to ignore.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mara*
Good, I read further and it looks like you are going to step down? Great! I think that this is still good in that hopefully other potential doulas are reading this and will have the guts to stand up and say no to these types of clients (I'm sorry I come across as such a cold beeyotch







)

thanks for this part, I was starting to feel a little put down. If you read the whole thread, you see some evolution.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
Just to be clear, I agree that if you or any individual doula feels she'd be morally compromised by working with a family that circs, her choice is clear.

However, I do wonder how everyone would feel about an OB who refused to continue providing care for a pregnant woman because she had had an abortion, abused her other children, committed adultery, or anything else he personally disapproved of. Is it really his business?

How is it not "his" business? all of those things can impact how labor progresses, depending on how she feels about them. I would expect that any provider worth their pants would want to know all sorts of "unrelated" stuff about the women they work with. People carry their lives into labor, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. And I think past acts are a lot different than future plans. There are docs who won't hand out birth control. I know one doctor here in town who tells the nurses not to offer her patients birth control advice after birth, because nearly everyone she works with uses FAM.









(just noticed my post count has gone up about 50 in the last week! crazy happenings)


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Mamabadger: However, I do wonder how everyone would feel about an OB who refused to continue providing care for a pregnant woman because she had had an abortion, abused her other children, committed adultery, or anything else he personally disapproved of. Is it really his business?
It's called *Boycott*. It happens everyday in America. It is a very effective way to change undesirable behaviors. Smart people do it.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP*
sorry to be the lone dissenter here. but here goes:

I am vehemently anti-circ myself. HOWEVER, I think you are being incredibly unprofessional agreeing to take on people who have not decided on circ with it in your mind that they will "come around."

Like it or not, circ does happen in this country and the parents have a right to choose it within our current laws. I absolutely applaud those of you out there that refuse to work with people who are going to circ. but i think its just plain wrong to ditch a pregnant woman and get her a replacement after you've been working with them all this time.

and for those of you who are wishing someone to have a deep episiotomy or a tear "because they deserve it." I think you need some professional help. That is such a horrible thing to wish on someone.

I understand your horror at how someone could make the circ decision, but there are a lot of people out there who (even with all the literature you give them) are going to do what they know. its what they've seen their whole life. Esp. if the father is circ'ed and he feels fine about it, he just may be incapable of seeing the truth on the issue.

Again, I know I'm gonna get flamed like mad (I'm ready for it) but I HAD to say something. I am against circ and would not work with someone who circed if I was a doula. But in the future, you need to MAKE THIS CLEAR. Otherwise you are no better than OBs who throw the gauntlet about inductions at the last second, etc. etc. Every professional person needs to be open and honest with who they are working with. Choosing you as their birth assistant was extremely personal for them and they are entering in a trust relationship with you. The fact that you were not honest about your feelings on circ early on and had the idea you would change them is absolutely not acceptable to me.

In the future, please tell couples BEFORE they hire you that you do not work with circ'ing couples.

XOXO
B

Giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I would like to know your opinion and others on this factor: Say you state right from the very start that you're CLEARLY pro-intact and WON'T be hired by the expecting couple if they're for circ or even on the fence about it. And say they state they're against it, but deep into the pregnancy they change their minds. Is alright to drop them as a client then? I would say yes.

Now given the _actual_ dilemma, I can see your point and it is a valid one, yet I can see everyone else's point even more so about not participating as taking a stand 1.) for yourself and 2.) to send a clear message.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking
A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say you're from Newfoundland.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
Why not use an analogy with the topic we're currently discussing?

How would you feel about an OB that refused to continue to provide care for a pregnant woman when he knew he was going to deliver a child that she would want circumcised?

According to international agreenments accepted by WMA(World Medical Association) doctor has rhe right to choose to say no if something is against his/hers ethics and moral views(WMA Council Resolution on the Relation of Law and Ethics, 2003). It advices doctors follow their ethics even if current law and doctor's ethics don't match.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Jeannine Parvati Baker (may she rest in peace) was a m.w. who would not attend homebirths for parents who planned to mutilate their sons. I always told my clients that they could make the choice for themselves but they would have to drive over my body on the way to the bris.
Baybee


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:

Mamabadger, I have a question for you. What makes your "anti-circ credentials" so good may I ask? What exactly do you do to actively end RIC? Please enlighten me.
I didn't really mean that to be a challenge, but just the usual: didn't circ my sons; teach the harsh facts about RIC in my prenatal classes; publicize the issue where possible. For example, when I have a display or booth for my classes, I usually include a poster and some free literature on genital integrity.

Quote:

How is it not "his" business? all of those things can impact how labor progresses, depending on how she feels about them. I would expect that any provider worth their pants would want to know all sorts of "unrelated" stuff about the women they work with.
True, but that's different from finding out whether the patient's values agree with the doctor's and deciding on that basis whether to provide medical care. On that basis, a lot of OBGYNs would refuse care to women who planned to BF past 24 months, for example, or to have a home birth. IMO, that would be paternalistic and inappropriate.

Seriously, I don't think it's my business, either, what decisions a couple will make regarding their child's care. Suppose I'm asked to be doula to a couple who say they just haven't decided yet whether to circumcise? Or, as some might well do, reply that it's none of my concern, I'm just being hired to help with the birth, and what happens in their family afterward is none of my business. To me, that's a reasonable reply.

I think spanking is a good parallel. Others have commented that it's not the same, circumcision is far more traumatic and damaging. Probably so, but a good argument can be made that spanking is as bad or worse. It continues over a much longer period of time, it inflicts emotional damage that can last a lifetime. If I have clients who I suspect intend to use corporal punishment - or to call things by their right names, intend to beat their child - I could refuse to attend their birth. Maybe all the local doulas could refuse them. Would making sure they have to deal with their first labour without support from a doula make them better, kinder parents? If anything, a good birth helps parents make more caring decisions about their children. I can hope to have that kind of effect on my clients if I do my job well, but I can't control what they do with their lives after my work for them is completed.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
True, but that's different from finding out whether the patient's values agree with the doctor's and deciding on that basis whether to provide medical care. On that basis, a lot of OBGYNs would refuse care to women who planned to BF past 24 months, for example, or to have a home birth.

most OBs refuse care to women planning homebirths. not uncommon at all. Plenty of docs have refused care for people who don't want to vax. Pharmacy workers can refuse to give the freaking birth control pill and you think I'm the odd one?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
Seriously, I don't think it's my business, either, what decisions a couple will make regarding their child's care. Suppose I'm asked to be doula to a couple who say they just haven't decided yet whether to circumcise? Or, as some might well do, reply that it's none of my concern, I'm just being hired to help with the birth, and what happens in their family afterward is none of my business. To me, that's a reasonable reply.

I feel like I'm interviewing them just as they are interviewing me. I have turned down families who wanted to hire me for other reasons, why not because of their circumcision views. If they can't trust me, I have no business in thier birh space.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I think spanking is a good parallel. Others have commented that it's not the same, circumcision is far more traumatic and damaging. Probably so, but a good argument can be made that spanking is as bad or worse. It continues over a much longer period of time, it inflicts emotional damage that can last a lifetime. If I have clients who I suspect intend to use corporal punishment - or to call things by their right names, intend to beat their child - I could refuse to attend their birth. Maybe all the local doulas could refuse them. Would making sure they have to deal with their first labour without support from a doula make them better, kinder parents?

So you take them on with the hopes of making them better parents? hmmm, I think that's what I've been accused of, hmmmm? Yes, I think gentle parenting starts with gentle birth, but it doesn't have to. I wouldn't take a family who was going to use corporal punishment either, for the record. I doubt they would hire me, given all my talking about gentle parenting. Every single one of the parents I work with knows some things about me, one of them being my other posistion as an API leader. I talk and walk this stuff. More often than not, the parents who ask to work with me hire me BECAUSE of those things, not in spite of them. They hire me because I am a resource for information on how they want to parent anyway.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I didn't really mean that to be a challenge, but just the usual: didn't circ my sons; teach the harsh facts about RIC in my prenatal classes; publicize the issue where possible. For example, when I have a display or booth for my classes, I usually include a poster and some free literature on genital integrity.

True, but that's different from finding out whether the patient's values agree with the doctor's and deciding on that basis whether to provide medical care. On that basis, a lot of OBGYNs would refuse care to women who planned to BF past 24 months, for example, or to have a home birth. IMO, that would be paternalistic and inappropriate.

Seriously, I don't think it's my business, either, what decisions a couple will make regarding their child's care. Suppose I'm asked to be doula to a couple who say they just haven't decided yet whether to circumcise? Or, as some might well do, reply that it's none of my concern, I'm just being hired to help with the birth, and what happens in their family afterward is none of my business. To me, that's a reasonable reply.

I think spanking is a good parallel. Others have commented that it's not the same, circumcision is far more traumatic and damaging. Probably so, but a good argument can be made that spanking is as bad or worse. It continues over a much longer period of time, it inflicts emotional damage that can last a lifetime. If I have clients who I suspect intend to use corporal punishment - or to call things by their right names, intend to beat their child - I could refuse to attend their birth. Maybe all the local doulas could refuse them. Would making sure they have to deal with their first labour without support from a doula make them better, kinder parents? If anything, a good birth helps parents make more caring decisions about their children. I can hope to have that kind of effect on my clients if I do my job well, but I can't control what they do with their lives after my work for them is completed.

I have been following this thread for a bit. I think it is well within a doulas right to work based on her Ethics. I have a lot of respect for sarah and for the OP that they know themselves and how they want to work. When you inform your potential clients of this there is no problem and no issue of not being 100% supportive...everyone is on the same page.

I do also think that it is valid to be a doula who takes on clients who do make different choices. I think it is a personal line. I have had clients who I was deeply troubled by some of their parenting choices. My hope is that supporting people to have the birth of their choice will empower them to be the best parents they can be. Maybe the education I provide will change their hearts on topics like breastfeeding and keeping sons intact. I can not ultimatly make them make the choice I want, but I can always hope that my personal experience and educational literature can help parents make what is the most logical choice.

I do agree with what mama badger says...I also know it is a matter of philosophy that we will never fully agree upon as doulas.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Thank you Saritabeth. I totally agree we need people working this from many different angles. I'm glad there are many kinds of doulas out there, otherwise we'd all be boring and the same.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
Thank you Saritabeth. I totally agree we need people working this from many different angles. I'm glad there are many kinds of doulas out there, otherwise we'd all be boring and the same.

Let the doula lovefest begin!









Im really glad you were able to work it out....I hate client conflict like that, its the WORST!

Hopefully they will rethink their choice and leave their sweet boy be!


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

dnr3301- I am very glad you were able to find a replacement and that things have worked out. I hope that they still reconsider their decision. Maybe even if they do have a boy he will be protected because of the strong stand you took.

mamabadger- Doctors can and do take stances on ethical issues. My own family doctor will not prescribe or refer you to anyone for any sort of pregnancy prevention due to his religious beliefs. He states this at your first visit with him and you can take it or leave it. But he sticks to his own personal beliefs. I believe to be true to your self you must sometimes take a stand. I would never want someone working for me that was harboring negativity about me because of opposing thoughts. It just wouldn't work.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Dear Mamabadger:

A *boycott* is an effective way to express disapproval when money is involved. EVERYONE has the right to boycott. You can boycott a person, a store or an organization if you are at moral or ethical odds with their behavior. It is a totally legitimate and useful way to protest injustice of any kind. I feel that doulas and MD's & Nurses (like the great Marilyn Milos) who are *fully committed to the Intactivist movement* will employ boycott as a measure to help end this insane practice of infant genital cutting.

Kudos to all of them!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I do not have advice, but wanted to say that I am sorry that you are in an uncomfortable position.







As a nurse, I hate being put in certain postions, that go against my beliefs and values. It sucks. There are certain area's that I avoid working in to avoid certain things, but other things can not be avoided very easily. I am sorry that you are in an uncomfortable position.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradoalice*
mamabadger- Doctors can and do take stances on ethical issues. My own family doctor will not prescribe or refer you to anyone for any sort of pregnancy prevention due to his religious beliefs.

I don't think this is quite the same thing, or that the boycott reference really applies, either. A doctor might refuse to prescirbe these things, but that's very different from refusing to treat a patient until he has confirmed that the patient refrains from using contraception.
In this society, even violent criminals are provided medical care. A doctor isn't morally compromised by treating someone who has or will commit atrocities. He's just healing the sick, as he's supposed to.

I take the same approach to doula care. I try to provide good information to my clients, and hope they make the right choices, but they're adults, and ultimately they decide for themselves. Withholding care will only increase the chances of a bad birth experience, which benefits nobody, including the baby.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I just want to add a quick note that a doctor and a doula have very different roles and different rules and ethics governing their practices. A doctor is providing medical care and a doula is a support person. They both have the right to refuse to treat patients due to ethical beliefs. The only time a doctor is required to perform any service is when it is a life threatening situation. If a woman comes in crowning ( I don't know why but impending birth is considered the same as someone presenting to the ER bleeding IYKWIM) he has to help her no matter what her parenting practices are. But earlier in pregnancy when there is no impending birth he has every right to make a choice about taking her on as a patient. The doula likewise has every right to take or not take a client on for whatever reason. There could be many reasons a doula and client aren't a good match, circ being only one of them. A doula might feel a personal responsibility to help a relative or friend, but there is no such rule in the doula certification that they must accept every client who asks for their help, is there? Docs refuse patients all the time too. I know a woman who had to see a few doctors before she found one who was willing to do her gastric bypass.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

to me it seems almost ludicrous to say that you oppose infant circumcision, but that you will continue to take money from clients who do it. Isn't that EXACTLY what all the circ'ing MD's are doing too? What's the difference? Where are the _ethics_ in that?


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Mama Badger: I take the same approach to doula care. I try to provide good information to my clients, and hope they make the right choices, but they're adults, and ultimately they decide for themselves. Withholding care will only increase the chances of a bad birth experience, which benefits nobody, including the baby.
That's interesting. This is exactly the same mentality that alot of circ'ing MD's take too. They say, _'I oppose this practice, yada yada yada'_ but if you still want to do it, I'll be glad to take your money anyway.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
That's interesting. This is exactly the same mentality that alot of circ'ing MD's take too. They say, _'I oppose this practice, yada yada yada'_ but if you still want to do it, I'll be glad to take your money anyway.









Here is the thing, its an agree to disagree point among doulas. From my perspective, I am a doula because I want to be a support person to the laboring mother to give her the best shot at an empowered self informed birth. I provide information about a lot of different things. I have my beliefs about what I think constitutes a good birth experience, but it is HER birth, her experience. What she wants for her birth isn't always what I would want for myself, or even her...but I can not argue with what her choice is. It is counterproductive. I provide the education and she makes her own choices. It is how I work.

Doulas do not perform Circ. I don't see how it is any more unethical of me to take a client who is planning on circing or who hasn't even told me what her plans for her child are....I am there as her labor support person, not her friend, not her MD, not her mothering mentor. I do not support circumcison one bit...I have educational literature available to any family that wants it that refutes the reasons why people do routine infant circ. When the opportunity arises for me to discuss why I don't support it, I give my opinion. I can not make the decision for them. I don't feel that it is unethical. For other doulas it is. It is a sticking point that doesn't need to be so devicive. I personally think I can do more to persuade from my end by working with a broad range of clients, but that's why I work the way I do. If I thought differently, I would work differently.

It is an entirely different matter for a MD to not support it and still do it. If I was in the position of practicing medical procedures that went against my beliefes I would not be able to do them and would refer out. Since I don't do that, I don't feel it is the same at all as working with a family as their labor support.

I don't think there will be agreement here on this point...Im glad there is a range out there. Women deserve labor support from someone.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes, I guess if I was in business for myself, all that would really matter to me in the end, was that the money was green.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Im sorry you are misunderstanding me. That is really a shame. There is no reason to be rude.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Saritabeth: Im sorry you are misunderstanding me. That is really a shame. There is no reason to be rude.
No... i am sorry. I was not trying to be rude at all. i was simply saying that money is the bottom line when you are in business for yourself. I totally get that.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

really it is not the bottom line. My above post was a thoughtful response and a different perspective. Im not asking you to agree. There is no reason to think that its all about the bottom line and a profit from what I posted. I take deep offense to that.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

really it is not the bottom line. My above post was a thoughtful response and a different perspective. Im not asking you to agree. There is no reason to think that its all about the bottom line and a profit from what I posted. I take deep offense to that.
Thank you for your thoughful responses. Really. I do not mean to offend. Clearly, you have your principles and you stand by them fully.







:


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## laneylue (Jun 15, 2006)

There are plenty of doctors who have terminated the doctor/patient relationship due to the patient's parents' refusal to have his/her child vaccinated.

Heck, even I have been "fired" as a patient by a doctor before because I refused the treatment he recommended.

Circumcision may be the deal-breaker for one doula, breastfeeding may be the deal-breaker for another, and another doula may take all patients regardless of the patient's choices. Just like some doctors will continue to keep the patients who don't vax while other doctors won't.

Not eveyone has to feel the same about every issue, and this is just one issue where she draws the line. I really fail to see how that is irresponsible of her.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Not eveyone has to feel the same about every issue, and this is just one issue where she draws the line. I really fail to see how that is irresponsible of her.
Yes. I clearly see _where_ she draws her line. It is certainly not irresponsible of her to earn a decent living. Sheesh!


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## laneylue (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
Yes. I clearly see _where_ she draws her line. It is certainly not irresponsible to her to earn a decent living. Sheesh!

Oh sorry, my comment wasn't really directed at anyone in particular - I was just rambling.

I'll go back to my corner.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Kldiam, why keep bringing it back to money?

Quote:

money is the bottom line when you are in business for yourself
and sor forth? I think you're missing Saritabeth's central point, which is that doulas don't perform circumcisions. They're not getting paid for doing circs, they're paid for supporting labouring women.

Personally, about half of the labours I've attended have been done free of charge, and very few doulas that I know of actually "earn a decent living" doing it, so they're not likely to compromise their principles because of the big bucks at stake!

A doula supports a woman in labour. I don't do circumcisions for my clients, I don't encourage them, I won't even watch them. Not for money, not for any reason. Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility. Again, we're talking about adults, not feeble-minded children!

I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

I can see very well how it is her business if she is a post-partum Doula as well. Forgive my ignorance of a a doula's duties, but might it involve a diaper change or some other new baby care help? She is perfectly in her rights to not have to deal with a bloody stump of a penis, a newborn who is in agony and the ignorant or stubborn, selfish parents who thought it okay to carve up their child.


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadkitty*
I can see very well how it is her business if she is a post-partum Doula as well. Forgive my ignorance of a a doula's duties, but might it involve a diaper change or some other new baby care help? She is perfectly in her rights to not have to deal with a bloody stump of a penis, a newborn who is in agony and the ignorant or stubborn, selfish parents who thought it okay to carve up their child.









I have read this whole thread














and not being in the field either, I find a lot of logic in what sadkitty said. I would also be horrified to see the bloody mess left behind after the poor little baby was cut and tormented for no reason except his parent's refusal to accept the truth about circ.







:

And dnr3301, circumcison makes me want to uke as well as, the people who have it done to their children







:


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

"Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility."
Lawn care is not a very good analogy to "Doula-ing". A lawncare person is not concerned with serious matters of birth & babies. Can you at least pick something else that is in the L & D biz or in medical care?

Quote:

"Again, we're talking about adults, not feeble-minded children!"
Are you trying to say that circumcision is a parent's choice? I am not so sure that this is quite in line with _Intactivism_. You may want to rethink that.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
Personally, about half of the labours I've attended have been done free of charge, and very few doulas that I know of actually "earn a decent living" doing it, so they're not likely to compromise their principles because of the big bucks at stake!

agreed

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mambadger*
Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility.

please tell me you're joking here. you are actually comparing this to lawn care? When I work with a family, I am a part of that pregnancy, that birth, that immediate postpartum period. I've cut grass; I've never had someone say to me afterwards, with tears in their eyes, that their grass never would have gotten cut without me. I, myself, get emotionally involved with these people; they are vulnerable in a unique way with me. I consider parto f what I do a service to the baby being born as well. The parents aren't just looking out for what makes it easiest or best for themselves, they want what is best for the baby as well. Circumcision is not best for any baby. I find it shocking that anyone would think a doula is not in a position to advocate for the baby as well as the mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."

I don't ask if they are planning to circumcise. I say that I have never worked with a family who has. I have never really had much problem leaping into a discussion after that (other than this one, in which part of the problem was that we didn't have a normal interview, they were friends and we both just assumed that meant everything would be hunky dory). I guess if they told me it wasn't my business, I would tell them I can't work with them, because I don't work with couple who circumcise, and if they can't tell me, I have to assume they will.

Really, my position is somewhat selfish as well. I can't handle it (obviously) if I put work into creating a peaceful, gentle birthing environment, then two days later, there goes the peace and gentleness.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I was going to say the same thing- lawn care is not in the same realm as doula support! Do you really see it as a singular job, separate from everything else? It's all interconnected to me. I asked earlier in the thread how you are able to reconcile being anti-circumcision while you provide support for a couple who will circumcise. I really do want to know, because I am unable to be around people like that. I certainly wouldn't be able to provide loving support for them.

This suddenly reminded me so much of the thread about staying friends with someone who circumcises after you give them all the information!! There were so many of us who said we simply cannot stomach seeing those people anymore; it's too painful for us. And a few who said it didn't bother them because it's not their decision to make. (Of course, it shouldn't be the parents' decision either...) It's just like that. You do not understand that we are personally, deeply affected and horrified by this human rights violation perpetrated on a helpless infant. And we do not understand how you can separate your anti-circumcision feelings out enough to still attend them.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
Lawn care is not a very good analogy to "Doula-ing". A lawncare person is not concerned with serious matters of birth & babies. Can you at least pick something else that is in the L & D biz or in medical care?

How about this analogy - I would not refuse to help a woman with breastfeeding problems or even breastfeeding questions who was planning on or had already had their child circumcised - even if her reasons for breastfeeding were purely "selfish" (i.e. losing weight, saving money). Children should have basic human rights - the right to genital integrity, the right to be fed breastmilk (and yep - I see it as every bit as important as circumcision. Withholding breastmilk can cause lifelong health problems that range from mild to life threatening and even in some cases death), the right to a gentle birth, etc. A traumatic birth experience effects the child every bit as much as the mom. So, let's give him a double whammy - birth trauma and then genital mutilation - heck, let's throw in poison in a bottle - triple threat! I mean, if he's going to be mutilated anyway.... (snarky 40+ week pg hormones - not trying to alienate anyone - just making a point)

Having said that, Rebecca, I think you made a great choice. You were obviously NOT comfortable working with that couple and it most likely would have come across in your care. Obviously this is not a choice that everyone would have made, but we're all different. You stood by the way you felt, and it was obviously a hard decision for you.







to you for standing by what you believed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll rethink their decision - you obviously made an impact on them. Even with what I said above, I certainly support a doula's choice to NOT support women who are planning on circing. I know it would have made a big impact on me as a new mom (although I was already against it!).


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Totally OT, but can I just say how excited I am to have started a thread that is six pages of really interesting conversation! It's my first. Usually my threads die slow boring deaths.

I am totally laughing at myself.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*









Totally OT, but can I just say how excited I am to have started a thread that is six pages of really interesting conversation! It's my first. Usually my threads die slow boring deaths.

I am totally laughing at myself.









Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama*







Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.

When's your due-date?

I never got to 40 weeks. I think if I had, I would've gone bonkers. Being at 39 weeks made me antsy- as my first was born then and so then were the other two.

I wouldn't nest if I were you. That would be jsut the time your water would break just as you were sitting down after four hours of dusting and mopping and straightening.


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## mommyswenn (May 23, 2004)

My kids were born at 41w3d, 42w1d, 38w3d and 41w1d. Three of them didn't even come the month they were due, and my little guy was born on the 31st at about 6:30pm, so he barely squeaked in there! LOL!

ITA with the no nesting. It's overrated.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama*







Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.

I even have lurkers!


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
I even have lurkers!









I didn't just lurk - I posted! A long one, too!!!!!

p.s. only 40+1


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Just to be clear, I don't find much similarity between doula work and lawn care. I used the two things for contrast. I was saying they are similar in that neither transmits any guilt if the person's employer decides on circumcision.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom*
You do not understand that we are personally, deeply affected and horrified by this human rights violation perpetrated on a helpless infant.

I see no reason to assume that, just because I continue to offer services to the parents *and their baby*. I like the way ColoradoMama put it:

Quote:

Children should have basic human rights - the right to genital integrity, the right to be fed breastmilk (and yep - I see it as every bit as important as circumcision. Withholding breastmilk can cause lifelong health problems that range from mild to life threatening and even in some cases death), the right to a gentle birth, etc. A traumatic birth experience effects the child every bit as much as the mom. So, let's give him a double whammy - birth trauma and then genital mutilation - heck, let's throw in poison in a bottle - triple threat! I mean, if he's going to be mutilated anyway....
And no, I don't think parents should have the right to choose mutilation for their children. In practice, they now have the option to do so, and until that changes, I can prevent it in _every_ case only if I kidnap and run off with their baby. I'd rather limit myself to actions that will actually benefit the family in some way.

The comment about being unable to remain friends with a circumcising parent struck me. A good friend of mine is an Orthodox Jew. She had a big family, and all four of her boys were circumcised at home on the eighth day. Oddly enough, she was anti-circumcision in a way - she felt that there was only one reason good enough for doing an infant circ: that the Lord and Creator of the universe demanded it. She considered anything else to be a lame, pathetic excuse for such a serious sacrifice, and told other parents so. It even made her angry when Reform or secular Jews had their boys circumcised; as she said, why would they give up every other part of the Law, like keeping kosher, but hang onto infant circ, of all things? Anyway, we remained friends, and I even caught her third child when the midwife didn't make it in time. I wouldn't attend any of the boys' bris, however, and she understood that. I can't see that permanently shunning her would accomplish anything.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quite obviously there are different degrees of personal commitment to Intactivism. I feel so strongly opposed to child mutilation that _it colors every move I make_. I don't consider myself to be a pseudo Intactivist, perhaps _that_ is why we disagree.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Well, my husband tells me that what I REALLY want to say is, um, well, strong. Let's just say that I think arrogance should have no place in intactivism. It's worse than the discreet vs. nondiscreet nursing issue. The infighting hurts the cause worse than the baby killing companies (also know to the rest of the world as Nestle, etc.) Who is a better intactivist is just ridiculous, and it hurts the cause. It makes us all look like a bunch of idiots.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."

Speaking as a DONA trained doula I would answer that I would not be able to help them. I would refuse to participate in an innocent boy's circumcision in any way.

~Nay


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Good for you for dropping them







And hopefully they really will do the research this time since you took such a strong stand









I am hoping to be a doula someday (once my babe is a bit older I'm going to look into taking the courses at SMS) and this thread has shown me that I will have to be crystal clear about this issue when first interviewing clients.... *especially* if they're friends of friends or the like. 'cause I agree that at least bottlefeeding can be done gently and lovingly, but circumcision can NEVER EVER EVER be done gently or lovingly or kindly or any way that's good







I think it was Frank who would always say that there's no right way to do something wrong (maybe it was in his sig? It's been so long, I wish he'd come back...).

love and peace.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama*
I didn't just lurk - I posted! A long one, too!!!!!

p.s. only 40+1

yah, I saw it, but after I had posted about you being a lurker.

Thanks for what you said in the last half of your post. I know I made the right decision for me, and understand that it wouldn't have been the right choice for everyone.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I just found this thread and read it all.

Yay DNR!!!!




































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































When I first started reading the thread, I was going to suggest crying in front of the couple....







but you did much better. Now we just have to wait and see if they actually go through with the barbaric act.


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## Christy1980 (Jul 7, 2002)

at least 2 good things came from this thread.

1) dnr figured out her true feelings and found a tactful way to resolve an uncomfortable issue.

2) we have a spinoff thread for birth care providers in the circ forum about how to deal tactfully w/ this issue w/ thier clients.

oh, i can hear the lock going into effect! wait for it..............


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## americastamps (Jan 3, 2006)

What a tough spot to be in: believing so strongly that circumcision is mutilation and being faced with parents who are about to do it.

I think so many of the posters had valid thoughts and ideas on the topic. It is nice to see the doula standing up for her beliefs, it is also neat to see that she is open to the suggestion of stating it up front with future clients.

I really agree with Beth and most all of what she said though, and here is why.
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do. Like the comment about a girl deserving the tear she had in childbirth. Yikes! That kind of thought cycle is so destructive both to the person who was in labor, and to that doula herself.

Constructive anger does something about a situation, destructive anger wishes harm on people who don't know better.

And another thing...boy I'm sure Im really going to hear it now cause I'm a newbie and I'm probably not allowed to speak up on anything without showing my resume....
but since when do I have to flash my credentials on my anti circumcision activism to have an opinion about the matter.

Being able to see the other side of the coin doesn't mean we are endorsing it.
You've got to be able to see both sides of the issue to be able to come to conclusion that "your side" is morally right, don't you?

People today don't understand a lot of things...but we can't win them over by anger/harm etc. I used to get so ticked off at people who refuse to listen about the harmful effects of MSG on their body.
But now I've just learned to let it go. If they truly understood how it affected their bodies, I just know they wouldn't eat it.

Hope to learn more from everyone here,

Erica


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## americastamps (Jan 3, 2006)

party hat dude appeared at the top of my post. That due to me being somewhat new to posting here, in the last several months etc.
So forgive me for the partying hat dude. God forbid someone would take him the wrong way...
Erica


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
NOOOOOOOO! I finally have a good thread!Head over there if you're interested, but leave me my cool thread!









We can stay on topic - I have faith!

Be honest with them. Tell them that you have really conflicted feelings for all the reasons that you've already listed. Tell them that you're not sure you'll be able to be the support they need with all of the emotions you're dealing with. Ask them if they've changed their mind. See where the discussion goes. There's no law that says you can't talk with them (except for the fact that they have trouble keeping in touch with you!). Good luck and big hugs - I know this whole thing is really eating you up.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama*
Or hey, someone jump in about the infighting thing - I'm always curious about how other people feel about it! Does it bother other people?

Sometimes I hate it and sometimes I just grab some popcorn.







: I feel as if I'm usually the one in the middle of it, so it's nice to be a spectator on occasion.

Continue as you were.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *americastamps*
party hat dude appeared at the top of my post. That due to me being somewhat new to posting here, in the last several months etc.
So forgive me for the partying hat dude. God forbid someone would take him the wrong way...
Erica

Party hat dude rules!


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Totally OT;





















What exactly doulas do? We do not have anything like that here so I am little bit confused.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *americastamps*
What a tough spot to be in: believing so strongly that circumcision is mutilation and being faced with parents who are about to do it.

I think so many of the posters had valid thoughts and ideas on the topic. It is nice to see the doula standing up for her beliefs, it is also neat to see that she is open to the suggestion of stating it up front with future clients.

I really agree with Beth and most all of what she said though, and here is why.
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do. Like the comment about a girl deserving the tear she had in childbirth. Yikes! That kind of thought cycle is so destructive both to the person who was in labor, and to that doula herself.

Constructive anger does something about a situation, destructive anger wishes harm on people who don't know better.

And another thing...boy I'm sure Im really going to hear it now cause I'm a newbie and I'm probably not allowed to speak up on anything without showing my resume....
but since when do I have to flash my credentials on my anti circumcision activism to have an opinion about the matter.

Being able to see the other side of the coin doesn't mean we are endorsing it.
You've got to be able to see both sides of the issue to be able to come to conclusion that "your side" is morally right, don't you?

People today don't understand a lot of things...but we can't win them over by anger/harm etc. I used to get so ticked off at people who refuse to listen about the harmful effects of MSG on their body.
But now I've just learned to let it go. If they truly understood how it affected their bodies, I just know they wouldn't eat it.

Hope to learn more from everyone here,

Erica

Beautifully stated.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
Totally OT;





















What exactly doulas do? We do not have anything like that here so I am little bit confused.

http://www.dona.org/mothers/faqs_birth.php#1


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *americastamps*
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do.

Erica

I'm not condoning wishing harm to other people. But it is very hard not to feel angry when you know people DO have the information -because you gave it to them personally!- and they still choose this. It's willful ignorance, and that's really hard to stomach. We are here to enlighten. But I'm only human.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Doula means with woman, not martyred for the cause.









Actually, midwife means "with woman." Doula comes from the Greek word for female slave.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *americastamps*
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

I operate on the premis that no one would knowingly harm their baby, therefore it's safe to assume that they won't circumcise once they know the info. HOWEVER, it has been shown over and over again that even with the info, people still circumcise (see any of the heart breaking "I gave them all the info and my SIL still wants to do it" type threads). I still don't believe it's because they are evil, but that they are so warped by society that they can't see anything else. I'm obviously (to me) not talking about religious ceremonies; to me there is a whole other level of pressure to do it.

I think that many people orignally think of it as nothing more than cutting the cord after a baby is born. Maybe I'm the first person to tell them it is a bigger deal than that. Maybe I'm the first person to show that it IS maiming, that it does matter, that social conformity is not a good reason to do it.

People get weird when it comes to conforming. I was at a doula-run parent topic night, and this couple talked to me afterwards. They were white (only mentioned for the next point), and the dad had dreadlocks. Not commonly seen on white men in Minnesota. The mom was leaning towards homebirthing, but the dad would not hear about it. At some point he walked away to talk to someone else, and the mom told me his biggest problem with homebirth was that he didn't want to be different. I just looked at her blankly, thinking, "does he realize he has dreads?" He was already pressing up against some social norms (for MN), but homebirth was so different to him, he couldn't even think about it.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
All Jews, and
All Moslems. Also
Parents who will not be breastfeeding
Parents who believe in spanking
A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.







:

I completely disagree. Doulas and midwives and naturopaths are concerned with the holistic health of the mother/baby dyad. Not just with getting the baby out. They are assisting a family, not just a uterus, as many OBs do.

It's not judging all the moral and ethical decisions the clients ever make hereafter. It's just a wellness position.

I had 2 homebirths and both my midwife teams told me they do not take clients who do not plan to breastfeed. First of all, b/c the bfing contracts the uterus, but also b/c a healthy, normal birth should be followed by normal infant feeding, human milk. This is the norm and should be promoted as such. They recommend LLL to all their clients.

We never planned on circing any children so I do not recall even discussing the subject with our midwives. But if the doula/midwife is concerned with the longterm health of the family they are working with, and circing interferes with this, they are well within their right to be upfront about this.

Taking a firm stand will be educational for the clients, and education is a good thing.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I have said in this thread and before that I respect people knowing their boundaries and their ethical limitations.

Here is where it becomes more murky for me personally. I truly believe that labor support can be the spring board for women to be more loving and gentle towards their babies. A Good birth experience can foster better attachments and more loving choices and lower incidents of PPD. Hopefully by even having a doula women who maybe are likely to circumcise or not consider bfing will have access to education and support in making (what may be for them) counter culture choices in the best interest of their child.

While I can not always change the hearts and minds of women, I hope that I may. I feel my role is educational and I can only do my best to provide the info. It is challenging and hard to watch poor choices being made despite the information offered, but nothing ventured nothing gained. If I am working with only people who are like minded I lose the educational component and don't have the best chance at helping people make better choices for themselves and their babies.

This way of working isn't for everyone and isn't 'the better way'. Its deeply personal for each doula and both ways have their merits.

Anyway....just another way to look at it.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritabeth*
A Good birth experience can foster better attachments and more loving choices and lower incidents of PPD. Hopefully by even having a doula women who maybe are likely to circumcise or not consider bfing will have access to education and support in making (what may be for them) counter culture choices in the best interest of their child.

Woo hoo - this thread has gotten back on topic!







Anyway, I totally agree with this statement. It also goes beyond just the mother. I said this before, but a traumatic birth experience doesn't just affect the mother - it affects the baby as well - it can affect both their emotional well being and their health. However, I want to make sure I say this again, too. I can see how certain issues, such as circumcision, would make it so that a woman would feel too uncomfortable to properly support a woman in labor. I can see how some women would say, "I cannot be a labor support person if X, Y, or Z is going to be a part of it." I guess I can see both sides of this particular issue.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I used to be a doula and am working on becoming a midwife. I refused to work with couples who were going to circ as a doula, and I will refuse to work with them as a midwife. I just cant put myself in that position. I suppose if I never asked and therefore didnt know what they were planning it wouldnt bother me so much, but then I would feel bad for not asking and trying to save the baby....
My midwives do work with anyone, regardless of their decision on circumcision, breastfeeding, etc. However, when a parent says they want to circ they make them watch the circ video and they give them all the info. 9 times out of 10, it changes their minds. And if it doesnt, they continue to work with them. Mind you, all of the midwives in the practice are completely against RIC. I know that at least one of them has told me that if she wasnt working in a group practice setting like that, she would totally take a stand and not accept patients that refused to leave their babies intact.
I dunno, I guess I could see people who were planning it, make the same "demands" as far as watching the video and listening to the info, and if they really refused, then ask that they at least wait a couple of months to minimize the risks. Hopefully if I could convince them of that, they would see how normal it is. Fortunately I live in an area with low circing rates....I cant imagine what I would do in a high circ area.
Anyway, I do think it is important for people to take a stand against it. I mean, if someone who is thinking it isnt a big deal has their midwife/doctor/doula/whatever refuse to work with them over it, it might get them thinking, whoa, maybe this isnt such a minor issue. And maybe it wont. But I can say personally that if someone refused to work with me over that or something else, it would have had a big impact on me before my first.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
http://www.dona.org/mothers/faqs_birth.php#1

Ah, thanks. We do have after all something like that but they work in hospitals and maternity clinics. Since spouses do get paid vacation when children are born, doulas work here is to mainly advice both parents with any questions they might have with birth itself and taking care of the newborn at home.


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## alba (Aug 20, 2006)

I wouldn't have a doula that wasn't an intactivist. There is certainly something to be said for doulas that are true to their moral beliefs.


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## momto3boys (May 15, 2003)

People get weird when it comes to conforming. I was at a doula-run parent topic night, and this couple talked to me afterwards. They were white (only mentioned for the next point), and the dad had dreadlocks. Not commonly seen on white men in Minnesota. The mom was leaning towards homebirthing, but the dad would not hear about it. At some point he walked away to talk to someone else, and the mom told me his biggest problem with homebirth was that he didn't want to be different. I just looked at her blankly, thinking, "does he realize he has dreads?" He was already pressing up against some social norms (for MN), but homebirth was so different to him, he couldn't even think about it.[/QUOTE]

I am seriously LMAO! How true!! It FLOORS me.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I have removed many off topic posts from this thread that served to derail it for a bit. Pardon me for not sending individual PMs to each member whose posts I removed but there were too many of you!

Please let's keep this thread on topic and post gently to each other.

Thanks!


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:

But it is very hard not to feel angry when you know people DO have the information -because you gave it to them personally!
Yes, but ours isn't the only information they're getting. For every anti-RIC doula or CBE a couple hears from, there are probably dozens of doctors, nurses, family members and friends presenting an opposing view. That's why it's so important to try and get accurate information into the public view and in the media.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

UPDATE!!!

don't know many details, but repeat cesarean, and a boy. IF I ever find out, i'll let you know more.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

this board was moving this afternoon, so I don't know if anyone saw this before it got moved to the 2nd page.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

I saw them at the grocery store. we were cordial, they had their beautiful baby boy with them, I have no idea what they did. I didn't ask. Someday I will find out, but not for now.


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