# Sad for my daughter



## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I have thought about this too. I wonder what are the odds my daughter will find and fall in love with an intact man (although I do not assume to know her sexual orientation).


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## SierraJ (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.










ummm..definition check on "normal"???


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I know, I was thinking the same thing.







: Okay, well, don't have a daughter yet, but I hope to someday. I'm going to discuss it with her though, when she's a teen.

On a lighter note, I was thinking of shipping this hypothetical future daughter off to Europe. I'll make sure she can speak French or Italian or something first.







: Is that wrong?







:


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SierraJ* 
ummm..definition check on "normal"???

Natural? Not painful? The way God and nature intended? Although circ'ed sex may be the norm in the US, in the span of mankind's years on earth it is not normal.


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## SierraJ (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
Natural? Not painful? The way God and nature intended? Although circ'ed sex may be the norm in the US, in the span of mankind's years on earth it is not normal.


ahhh....definately makes sense. gracias.


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

I can't honestly say I've thought that far ahead...FWIW my DH is circumcised and our sex life is just fine. Of course neither one of us knows the alternative...but I hope no one feels sorry for me.

I'm NOT FOR circumcison...I'm just saying. Any future sons we have will NOT be getting circumcised.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I don't have a daughter so that thought hadn't occured to me, but sometimes I do worry about the women ds will meet. What if one of them really does pressure him about getting cut? I mean I know only a really shallow woman would do it, but I still don't want him feeling baddly about himself, or worse yet making a decision he would later regret for a girl. It would be so much better if circ wasn't the norm in the US. THen we wouldn't have to worry about these things.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

janellesmommy,

Sad, and mostly true except it assumes our children will be heterosexual.









Jen

---

Some good resources explaining how circumcision drastically impacts normal sex, here are some resources for anyone who's interested:

How Male Circumcision May Be Affecting Your Love Life
by Dr. Christine Northrup

The Prepuce, Part 1:





The Prepuce, Part 2:





The Lost List:
http://www.norm.org/lost.html

The Three Zones of Penile Skin:
http://www.foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm


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## blissful_maia (Feb 17, 2005)

This is a really weird thread! I would just support your daughter to have a healthy sex life with whoever she falls in love with - man, woman, circ'ed or not. Sheesh.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I never thought about that...


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

But your ds might be gay, and might have a circumcised partner. Just a thought.

If he is heterosexual, his female partner might have had an episiotomy, which is genital cutting, too.


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## smeep (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phreedom* 
I can't honestly say I've thought that far ahead...FWIW my DH is circumcised and our sex life is just fine. Of course neither one of us knows the alternative...but I hope no one feels sorry for me.

I'm NOT FOR circumcison...I'm just saying. Any future sons we have will NOT be getting circumcised.

But see...that's the "just fine" thing that many people use to justify it (and luckily you are not). People will circ their boys and say they're "just fine" or choose not to bf and say they turned out "just fine" but lots of times they DON'T turn out "just fine"...they just don't know that the child has decreased sexual sensitivity, they think it's normal and "just fine"...they don't know that their child getting sick 6 times a year is not normal and is really not "just fine" (btw, not saying ALL babies not bf get sick that often...you know what I mean lol). Therea re a lot of "just fine" excuses in parenting, but what they think is "just fine" is actually NOT "just fine" in comparison.

But I am glad if the two fo you are happy - clearly you cannot change the past, only the future, and make the best of the present.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.









It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.


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## smeep (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.

More lubrication, there's the whole gliding effect of the foreskin. In my experience, the one intact guy I was with was REALLY good and now taht I think back, I think it was the foreskin....but I haven't been with enough guys intact and circ'd to really be able to compare it. lol


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I wouldn't worry about it. I mean, one doesn't even need to have a _penis_ involved at all to have a normal sex life let alone a foreskin. I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.









ETA: There is just _so_ much more to fulfilling sex than any sort of physical characteristic.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

ooooh, the creeps come out at night.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I thought about that yesterday. I had only had very comfortable sex once. It has always been rough feeling. That one time was with a half circed male. Don't know what the story was, but just the tip was gone. He had plenty of skin left to retract. I wish dh was intact.


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## silverspook (Feb 20, 2006)

DH not having a foreskin brought our sex life to a halt after I birthed an 11 lb baby! Sex was always uncomfortable & made me sore for a day or so, but it was unbearably painful after baby. Now that he is restoring, it is 100x better! Interesting thread...


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
ooooh, the creeps come out at night.









huh?

I think its a huge leap to say that you (general) might be having uncomfortable sex and therefore it's something to worry about for your daughter! There are just so many other variables that could come into play.


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## blissful_maia (Feb 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I wouldn't worry about it. I mean, one doesn't even need to have a _penis_ involved at all to have a normal sex life let alone a foreskin. I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.

















:


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## jellop (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.









Has your daughter seen your sons intact penis? Because, honestly, I'd imagine that she'll grow up knowing the "intact" version is the norm, since her baby brother is intact. So really, the way I see it, by your son being intact, you actually INCREASE the likelihood of her being with an intact man, IMHO.


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## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jellop* 
Has your daughter seen your sons intact penis? Because, honestly, I'd imagine that she'll grow up knowing the "intact" version is the norm, since her baby brother is intact. So really, the way I see it, by your son being intact, you actually INCREASE the likelihood of her being with an intact man, IMHO.









She definitely will know about that, but I imagine she will fall in love with her soulmate, and hopefully he wil be intact, but it won't be something she can choose.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Your daughter is 4 yo and you're sad about her future sex life?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Creepy.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **bejeweled** 
Your daughter is 4 yo and you're sad about her future sex life?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Creepy.

You know, people say the same thing when intactivists explain the sexual benefits of leaving boys intact. They think, "He's a baby! Who cares?" We're so focused on our children being small sometimes we forget that they're going to grow up and be autonomous adults. The OP isn't thinking about her daughter having sex, she just realized that given our culture and past circumcision rates it's fairly likely that her future partner(s) will be cut...and that means her daughter may essentially be 'stuck with' substandard sex.









Jen


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## graceomalley (Dec 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.









Circumcised women in Africa are adamant that their sex lives are very fulfilling too, and cite the intimacy of the act as the important thing as well.

I hope my children have intact partners.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

I really could care less, honestly. I've had both types of partners, ended up marrying an 'intact' european man, but i can safely say there was no reason for my mom to feel sad for me when I was with my circumcised partners.







And to be brutally honest, before I became Anti-Circ - I preferred my sex life with the Circ'd men







: Sorry to burst that bubble there.

I'm in the opposite boat - I'll be the one trying to bite my tongue if my daughters come home with a european man (or even a man at all







). Penis aside, they're a lot of work compared to the other men I've dated.







: Between the culture clashes and 'where to live' neverending argument, as well as trying NOT to insult each other everytime we encounter a difference that we can't understand.....I wouldn't wish that on anyone.









Besides, the circ rate in Canada is only 18%. I'd say her odds are pretty good.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *graceomalley* 
Circumcised women in Africa are adamant that their sex lives are very fulfilling too, and cite the intimacy of the act as the important thing as well.

And non-circumcised women in North America, with intact male partners say the same thing (my point being, that offering up counter-examples is sort of fallacious in light of the specificity of the thread subject). I understand your argument. I also think that sexism plays a big role in making women feel as if they need to say they enjoy sex with men when they don't. This happens in so many varying circumstances. Women generally do not achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation at least at some point. So it is simply not the role of the penis (intact or not) to exclusively be the source of fulfilling and satisfying sex in a woman's physiological, emotional, psychological, or spiritual experience.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrogirl* 
Between the culture clashes and 'where to live' neverending argument, as well as trying NOT to insult each other everytime we encounter a difference that we can't understand.....I wouldn't wish that on anyone.









Oh come now...doesn't that happen with everyone we date at some point?


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## graceomalley (Dec 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
And non-circumcised women in North America, with intact male partners say the same thing (my point being, that offering up counter-examples is sort of fallacious in light of the specificity of the thread subject). I understand your argument. I also think that sexism plays a big role in making women feel as if they need to say they enjoy sex with men when they don't. This happens in so many varying circumstances. Women generally do not achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation at least at some point. So it is simply not the role of the penis (intact or not) to exclusively be the source of fulfilling and satisfying sex in a woman's physiological, emotional, psychological, or spiritual experience.

Plenty of women DO achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation. Have you read the recent medical studies which isolated nerve impulses during orgasm in circumcised women? It showed that the sensory experience which leads to orgasm through clitoral stimulation is indeed seen in women with no clitoris. Amazing. Then, on the other hand, many women who have chosen to have their foreskin removed say it enhances clitoral stimulation. In this case anecdotes are useless because everyone's experience is different and like you said, it's not just the physical side of it which is important.

However, my original point was to bring focus to a statement which was dismissive of the OP's concern, imo. It was also slightly sexist, but I will admit that I'm probably (hopefully) reading it the wrong way. I fully accept that not many people would even realize it's sexist because of the cultural conditioning which attributes foreskins only to males. Making sweeping statements which exclude one sex, when the excluded sex is anatomically (or otherwise) worthy of being included, isn't something I tolerate. By your linking of the penis with the statement "let alone a foreskin" you ignored the clitoral foreskin completely. And I don't know about you, but I'm pretty fond of mine. I don't like it to be ignored when we're talking about human rights issues, and I don't think it's a human rights issue which should be minimized. I certainly wouldn't want my foreskin to be cut off, and I wouldn't want my son's future wife to go through that agony either.

Yes I know, I know, completely fallacious when considering the specificity of the thread subject.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

My DD's will definitely be taught about circumcision, and I'll let them know everything. They can take that information and then apply it to their future partners if they wish. It's their lives, their choice.

And, btw, some women do not need any clitoral stimulation to orgasm, I'm one of them. So, if either of my DD's take after me I would think intercourse would be a particularly important thing for them in attaining orgasm.

And, whose to say that even if my DD meets and falls in love with a circumcised man that she can't educate him and he'll learn about restoration in the process?


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrogirl* 
And to be brutally honest, before I became Anti-Circ - I preferred my sex life with the Circ'd men







: Sorry to burst that bubble there.

Me too.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Let's not start the we are creepy crap, that's old. My children's sexuality is a part of them and I can deny that all I want but it won't make it any less so.
Having sex with a circumcised man might be the norm (In the US of course) but it is not natural or the way it was intended.
It's a touchy subject because we don't want our circumcised partners to feel bad about something most had no say in. And of course there is more to sex than the actual act. But I'll never be convinced that sex (the actual act) is better or just as good when one partner is missing a integral part of their genitalia, it's just illogical


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Both your kids might be gay. Then who ya gonna feel sorry for, kwim?







:

ITA with mamajama as well that there is a lot more to sexuality than a foreskin.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Of course there is more to sexuality than foreskin but the act of sex/intercourse is altered when one partner is missing an integral part of their genitalia (whether it be the man or the woman). And I think it is weird and well off to prefer mutilated genitalia for your partner.

I think this conversation really brings to light how far we have to go with ending genital mutilation.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
Of course there is more to sexuality than foreskin but the act of sex/intercourse is altered when one partner is missing an integral part of their genitalia 9whether it be the man or the woman). And I think it is weird and well off to prefer mutilated genitalia for your partner.

Nobody is suggesting that the OP's children (either of them!) should prefer a circed penis to an intact one. But I do find the post heterosexist, and just a bit overly focused on the foreskin and its connection to sexuality. There is a lot to sexuality and there is no way to know whether either child will have or want a partner with a foreskin, and what that might or might not mean to their sex lives.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I already addressed the fact I do not know my children's sexual orientation. But I can still take part in the conversation.
The foreskin has several sexual functions the penis doesn't function naturally/normally with out it. And I would hope my children wouldn't prefer mutilated genitalia (on men or women). My children will know why men have foreskin and it's functions.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

:ummm







i know i cant be with a man that is cut because I have had cut the past. so i know that the sex sucks and i dont enjoy it. I cant fall for someone who is not whole because this is a major thing that effects the whole relationship and YES i do ask.







i will continue my education of my children (and everyone else) on what is wrong with cutting a baby and why it is bad. when they are bigger i will go in to it fully so that they understand it. i will share my past with my dd's and even my ds's and let them know that the sex is bad.














think that it takes alot of woman to speak up saying that sex is bad. maybe then people will start to listen.







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

You seriously wouldn't be with a man because his penis is cut? Wild. How do you even find out? You ask someone you barely know about the status of their genitals? And that is make or break for you?

I find that shocking, and disturbing.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
And I think it is weird and well off to prefer mutilated genitalia for your partner.

I think this conversation really brings to light how far we have to go with ending genital mutilation.

















I don't think personal sexual preference is weird.

However, I don't think it has anything to do with RIC. It doesn't matter what the adult's preference may end up being, it can never justify mutilating an infant in any way. If the adult wants to modify their body, by piercings, circumcision, tattoos or anything else based on their preference, then fine.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 














think that it takes alot of woman to speak up saying that sex is bad. maybe then people will start to listen.







:









Yes.

BTW, I have no problem making the assumption that my children will PROBABLY grow up to be heterosexual, and will PROBABLY prefer natural sex as opposed to circed sex. Statistics would support those probabilities.

My husband is getting restored, and if he ever dies and I were considering partnering up again, the prospective partner's circ status would be a huge factor for me.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Wow, the responses in this thread are startling.

OP, I know exactly what you were talking about. I think some MDC posters have been replying out of defensiveness. The link between circumcision, ESPECIALLY TIGHT CIRCS, has been discussed thoroughly on this board and this forum has been a haven for women talking about how their sex lives have improved dramatically after their husbands restored, and now people are stamping and shouting that the foreskin has little on effect on one's sex life?







:

Wow.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dealic* 
However, I don't think it has anything to do with RIC.

But it does. It might not make you cirumcise your son but I have read many a mom justify circumcising their son/s because they prefer sex with a circumcised man and their circumcised partner is glad they are missing their foreskin. We have normalized the mutilated penis so much so that women even prefer it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
But it does. It might not make you cirumcise your son but I have read many a mom justify circumcising their son/s because they prefer sex with a circumcised man and their circumcise partneris glad they are missing their foreskin. We have normalized the mutilated penis so much so that women even prefer it.

Well... I think many women have never even seen an intact penis, so they are going on what is 'the norm' in their experience. I think there is no question that the intact penis is the wholly functional one and that sexual pleasure for both genders is heightened. Generally.

But my problem with this thread is the assumptions... that the OP's children will be heterosexual, firstly, and that circ will mean a crappy sex life. The truth is that for many people it does not mean that, and it sort of overstates the anti-circ case into the ridiculous to suggest that this is a universal enough experience that the OP's daughter will certainly face it if she one day in the distant future has a cut male partner.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
Let's not start the we are creepy crap, that's old. My children's sexuality is a part of them and I can deny that all I want but it won't make it any less so.

Having sex with a circumcised man might be the norm (In the US of course) but it is not natural or the way it was intended.

It's a touchy subject because we don't want our circumcised partners to feel bad about something most had no say in. And of course there is more to sex than the actual act. *But I'll never be convinced that sex (the actual act) is better or just as good when one partner is missing a integral part of their genitalia, it's just illogical*









: (bolding mine).

I can't compare, as I've only been with my intact dh. But I've heard enough (both here, and from friends with circed husbands) to know that circumcised sex is different (and not in a good way) from normal, intact sex.

I don't recognise the need for artificial lube, the pounding away, the soreness/chaffing, etc that are described by many women with cut partners.

Of course there is more to the sex act than just genitals meeting - and I'm sure there are many circed men out there who are good, considerate sexual partners. And those cut men who have looser cuts are probably lucky - I would imagine that the severity of the circumcision would impact on how badly it affects the sexual act itself.

As for the OP - this isn't something I dwell on, but yes - it has occurred to me. I do feel very fortunate that my partner is intact, and would feel sad for my daughters and their future partners if the partner is cut.

Same way I feel badly for women who are cut. No difference.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I think a lot of American woman do not realise that sex with a circumcised man isn't quite right, they think those little (or not so) complaints are just normal parts of sex. Or it's a fault in there own anatomy. I think it's pretty likely if our daughters have sex with men and remain in the US that they will encounter a circumcised sexual partner and just the fact he's circumcised will alter their sex life to some degree and imo in a negative way (and my daughter will know what's what).


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Wow, the responses in this thread are startling.

OP, I know exactly what you were talking about. I think some MDC posters have been replying out of defensiveness. The link between circumcision, ESPECIALLY TIGHT CIRCS, has been discussed thoroughly on this board and this forum has been a haven for women talking about how their sex lives have improved dramatically after their husbands restored, and now people are stamping and shouting that the foreskin has little on effect on one's sex life?







:

Wow.

People will always come out of the woodwork and say that. Remember, there are no "cookie cutter" circ. I've met women whose husbands have been circ'd yet still have 3/4 of their glans covered. Of course, their experience is not going to be the same as those without any mobile skin. The high and tight obviously are obviously the most contrasting to natural intercourse. Couple tight, immobile skin with a missing frenulum/little remaining foreskin with keratinization and it is dramatically in contrast to what natural intercourse is like.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well... I think many women have never even seen an intact penis, so they are going on what is 'the norm' in their experience. I think there is no question that the intact penis is the wholly functional one and that sexual pleasure for both genders is heightened. Generally.

But my problem with this thread is the assumptions... that the OP's children will be heterosexual, firstly, and that circ will mean a crappy sex life.

I think we need to "watch our language" in the sense that sexual pleasure for both genders isn't "heightened" with an intact penis. Sex with healthy, whole genitals is normal, standard, just-the-way-nature-designed-it-to-be-sex. Circumcised sex is abnormal, it's missing some valuable anatomy, it's diminished.

I agree about the assumption that the OP's children will be heterosexual. I disagree that circ="crappy sex". When a man (or woman, for that matter) is circumcised, the sex will not be NORMAL, it will not be as it's meant to be, it will not be as good as it could be because at least one partner is missing an important, sensitive, functional part of their genitals. Does that mean it can't be good, stimulating, or enjoyable? Of course not.

I think the OP was just saying that she wants the BEST for her daughter in all regards. I don't think it's creepy to hope that someday, when our children are sexually active, that they have a great sex life. Most of us believe the chances of that are physiologically better with whole genitals.

Jen


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *graceomalley* 
Plenty of women DO achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation. Have you read the recent medical studies which isolated nerve impulses during orgasm in circumcised women? It showed that the sensory experience which leads to orgasm through clitoral stimulation is indeed seen in women with no clitoris. Amazing.

That is amazing, and no I haven't read that research yet. Do you have a link?

Jen


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

My fear is that my daughter will be like some of the wonderful women I have read about on this forum. They come here and tell their stories...they think the rubbing, the raw feelings after sex, the lack of lubrication...they think these things are THEIR FAULT. I would not want my daughter to think that. You can't escape being educated about the functions of the foreskin in this house, so I hope that will help he understand that, if she does end up with a man who is circumcised and feels raw and painful after sex, she will know not to blame herself.

(of course, she will also know not to blame him either)


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Need an example of what I am talking about?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=784377


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
People will always come out of the woodwork and say that. Remember, there are no "cookie cutter" circ. I've met women whose husbands have been circ'd yet still have 3/4 of their glans covered. Of course, their experience is not going to be the same as those without any mobile skin. The high and tight obviously are obviously the most contrasting to natural intercourse. Couple tight, immobile skin with a missing frenulum/little remaining foreskin with keratinization and it is dramatically in contrast to what natural intercourse is like.

Absolutely, I agree. And not all women who have circ'd partners will have a painful or bad experience, that's obvious. Nothing is universal. But the fact is, a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision, especially tight circs, DOES exist. And people were being dismissive of that, which surprised me.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Absolutely, I agree. And not all women who have circ'd partners will have a painful or bad experience, that's obvious. Nothing is universal. But the fact is, a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision, especially tight circs, DOES exist. And people were being dismissive of that, which surprised me.

I think the issue here that some of us are responding to is the OP's assumption that her daughter, still a child and whose sexual future is very unknown, WILL have a painful or bad experience unless she gets with an intact man. That is the overstatement that makes this thread come off as a bit ridiculous, IMO. I have seen nobody deny a link between sexual dysfunction and circ, but that link is in no way universal, and a circed male partner does not automatically equal a crappy sex life.


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## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I have seen nobody deny a link between sexual dysfunction and circ, but that link is in no way universal, and a circed male partner does not automatically equal a crappy sex life.


just as an intact partner does not automatically guarentee a great sex life.
There is so much more involved then just the foreskin when it comes to good and bad sex.

I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin. I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.

Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast). Personally I think those rates are overblown and that the circ rate is higher then being posted here and in reality she probably will end up with a circ'd partner. Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me?

There really isn't a difference at all. I speak from (a lot of) experience. IME, it does not make a difference.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think the issue here that some of us are responding to is the OP's assumption that her daughter, still a child and whose sexual future is very unknown, WILL have a painful or bad experience unless she gets with an intact man. That is the overstatement that makes this thread come off as a bit ridiculous, IMO. I have seen nobody deny a link between sexual dysfunction and circ, but that link is in no way universal, and a circed male partner does not automatically equal a crappy sex life.

What's the difference when people make a decision to circ or not circ their son's based on their sexual future? She didn't say WILL, she said that her daughter might. And people have denied a link between the two in this thread, stating that the foreskin has nothing to do with sexual satisfaction.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well... I think many women have never even seen an intact penis, so they are going on what is 'the norm' in their experience. I think there is no question that the intact penis is the wholly functional one and that sexual pleasure for both genders is heightened. Generally.

But my problem with this thread is the assumptions... that the OP's children will be heterosexual, firstly, and that circ will mean a crappy sex life. The truth is that for many people it does not mean that, and it sort of overstates the anti-circ case into the ridiculous to suggest that this is a universal enough experience that the OP's daughter will certainly face it if she one day in the distant future has a cut male partner.

I'm with you on the assumption of heterosexual orientation, thismama.

But, circ-related sexual dysfunction in not an assumption in my marriage -- it's an unfortunate reality. No, it's not certain by any means that the OP's daughter will face problems if she has a cut male partner. But it's far from unlikely, too.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
just as an intact partner does not automatically guarentee a great sex life.
There is so much more involved then just the foreskin when it comes to good and bad sex.

I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin. I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.

Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast). Personally I think those rates are overblown and that the circ rate is higher then being posted here and in reality she probably will end up with a circ'd partner. Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.

Not all of our daughters are babies or toddlers. Having part of your child's genitals cut of so you will find them more pleasing to your eye is wrong. That is a far cry from us being concerned that our children's future sex life might be negatively affected by them having a circumcised partner.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
There really isn't a difference at all. I speak from (a lot of) experience. IME, it does not make a difference.

Interesting that in your experience a man lacking an important part (for sexual function at the least) of his penis makes no difference when it comes to intercourse. It's seem illogical but whatever I guess.







:


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
just as an intact partner does not automatically guarentee a great sex life.
*There is so much more involved then just the foreskin when it comes to good and bad sex.*

Correct. But do you deny that circumcision can impact a man's sexuality negatively? Circumcised women claim to still have orgasms and enjoy sex despite having their external clitorises removed, but none of use would ever say "There's more to good sex than just the clitoris"







:

Quote:

I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin. I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.
The fact of the matter is, if you're involved in the circumcision debate, you care about penises and how they work, period.

Quote:

Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast). Personally I think those rates are overblown and that the circ rate is higher then being posted here and in reality she probably will end up with a circ'd partner. Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.
You find it funny how? Considering you don't post here often and the tone of this post, I take it that you think many of us here are exaggerating the issue.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
just as an intact partner does not automatically guarentee a great sex life.
There is so much more involved then just the foreskin when it comes to good and bad sex.

I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), *yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin.* I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.

*Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast).* Personally I think those rates are overblown and *that the circ rate is higher then being posted here and in reality she probably will end up with a circ'd partner.* Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.


I will attempt to address the bolded parts in order:

1) First, this is a total red herring. But, beyond that, many here do not think its perverted, though sometimes if relatives or friends are badgering a mother or father about choosingnot to circumcise, we will tell them that their choices are none of their business. I stay away from telling people "my kid's penis is none of your business" because it is ambiguous when you look at our goal to stop circumcision.

We aren't constantly focused on these boys' penises, we are focused on stopping mutilation of said body part; but the two are so closely linked it can sometimes become confusing to people. It's not the penis that is our business, it is the action of circumcision, of mutilation, of skinning of said penis that is our business.

I think worrying about a future sexual experience of one's daughter as it relates to circumcision is just a projection of how we think about the greater problem. I worry the rates will not continue to fall, but I am confident they will. But there is that confliction and worry. There is nothing wrong or perverted about that worry...that circumcision rates will remain high in this country (leading to further circumcised adults....the cycle continues)

Also, worrying about a daughter marrying a circumcised man can be very real because, as we see time and time again, circumcised men often push hard to have the child done as well.

2) Living in the USA, I know how it feels to embrace the numbers falling but also to fear their rise. It is a conflict inside of me...much of it depends on how the AAP rules...they are currently rethinking their circumcision stance and are due to release the new stance in a few months time.

In threads like this that fear is going to be more apparent. Sometimes it is just like that. that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of hope on this board-- or even within myself-- but when we talk of fears, as this OP is, it brings out the thought of fears in all of us.

3) obviously even you have those fears according to your comment here. But the numbers dont lie. On the west coast, not many boys are being cut anymore. The numbers are falling everywhere...and while there are bris's not being counted in many of those numbers, there are also homebirths and birth centers not being counted.

So we continue to hope and work hard for our goal.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=709119


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Also here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=784377


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

random thought that a PP brought to my head...not necessary about anyone in this particular thread:

It is a common defense mechanism for people to meet intactivism with "you spend your day thinking about penises" or some other line that implies a wrongness about the subject itself.

It's too bad those sentiments cannot get around the cultural blinders....we could use that passion in the fight against the thing that is really wrong and disgusting and cruel: circumcision itself!


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.

I don't know where the OP is from, but where I'm at the circ rate is under 40%...so I do think they would have a really good chance to having around half intact partners.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

And even if you think the numbers are less than reality, just think that, with current trends, they will be MUCH lower in 15 years...even factoring in this margain of error that HeidiAnn feels is there, it would definitely be around 50% by then.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
Interesting that in your experience a man lacking an important part (for sexual function at the least) of his penis makes no difference when it comes to intercourse. It's seem illogical but whatever I guess.







:

Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, *who* has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always *has* to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Correct. But do you deny that circumcision can impact a man's sexuality negatively? Circumcised women claim to still have orgasms and enjoy sex despite having their external clitorises removed, but none of use would ever say "There's more to good sex than just the clitoris"







:

Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, *who* has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always *has* to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.

I believe the blinders quote was me, and, no I would never say that sex is any one way or another.

I think the best course of action is to talk about the functions of the foreskin in relation to sex, but also in relation to the protection of the man's penis and in heightening his sexual pleasure (see rcent BJU study). If we can get people to value those things, perhaps the idea of personal sexual experiences will just go away. It won't matter anymore if someone once had a circumcised partner and liked it better than an intact man...because the value of the male's complete body and all that goes along with that will supercede any notions of "better sex" 'for me'.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, *who* has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always *has* to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.

I wasn't discounting your experiences. I just think it's odd that having the foreskin removed doesn't affect sex at all, makes absolutely no difference. It is illogical to ME. There are rare things in the world that really are black and white. Sexual experiences are NOT one of those things.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.

I would not say *many* here would compare the clitoris to the foreskin. The clitoral hood perhaps but not the clitoris itself.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
I wasn't discounting your experiences. I just think it's odd that having the foreskin removed doesn't affect sex at all, makes absolutely no difference. It is illogical to ME. There are rare things in the world that really are black and white. Sexual experiences are NOT one of those things.

This is very much like a conversation I had a with a male on another board. He could not fathom how anyone could masturbate without a foreskin. He said he "winced" at the idea of using friction from your hand pulling immobile skin to try and cause orgasm.

I hope someday we can all think like this







The idea of having no mobile penal skin will just make people cringe.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.









:







:







:

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.

And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 







:







:







:

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.

She def isn't! I guarentee.







(you can even look up the thread she started in her Due Date Club about not circumcising)








Not that I have any more credibility on an anon forum!

(i know there are many other examples, but the DDc thing popped into my head first!)


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

There are plenty of pro-circers on MDC and many who are somewhere in the middle but do not think circ is as bad as we think it is.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying thismama is. I don't think that was clear.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Yeah that's true. But they don't all have to be intactivists to change this horrible practice.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 







:







:







:

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.









Ooh yeah, I'm a rabid pro-circer coz I don't think clitoris to foreskin is an accurate comparison.

What was I saying about too much drama weakening the argument?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

This thread took a disturbing turn. I don't get why the Op can't assume her own children will be hetero. Yes true they may ended up not but it's her children she could dream for them as she wishes. Just as a queer mama can wish the same for her kids. Did I miss something, maybe I should go back and re-read.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







Ooh yeah, I'm a rabid pro-circer coz I don't think clitoris to foreskin is an accurate comparison.

What was I saying about too much drama weakening the argument?

Address this please:

Quote:

And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

This study which most of us have not heard of notwithstanding, the common understanding is that the clitoris is the central point of orgasm and without it most women do not orgasm.

If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Yes, it did. What is going on this last few days????

But I can certainly vouch from other threads that thismama is, in no way, a pro-circer.

But posts like this one

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
There really isn't a difference at all. I speak from (a lot of) experience. IME, it does not make a difference.

are just as "over the top" ridiculous as anything on this thread. And down right insulting to those of us who struggle daily with the after affects of infant genital mutilation. I get that it is this poster's experience that it makes no difference to her. And I think she's very, very lucky.

But there are lots and lots of us who aren't so lucky. And who's to say whether future cut children will be in the lucky camp or the really crappy life-altering not-so-lucky camp.

Once again, here's a link to my story. And if you read the whole thread, you'll find several women who have had partners just like my dh, and one very brave man who describes his experience first-hand.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.

My circ'ed dh cannot orgasm through intercourse as a direct result of the desensitization that occurs as a result of a very tight circumcision. We were not able to have children together in the normal manner as he is unable to ejaculate into my vagina.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This study which most of us have not heard of notwithstanding, the common understanding is that the clitoris is the central point of orgasm and without it most women do not orgasm.

If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.

You seem to not be reading what I wrote well.

Quote:

And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.
Whether or not you are/were aware of this study does not change the fact that women without their external clitorises are still orgasming and claim to have perfectly satisfying sex lives. Period. The same goes for circ'd men. My specific point was, and you've yet to address this, just because these people claim their sex lives are fine, that doesn't mean that circumcision of the clitoris and foreskin doesn't have a negative impact on sexuality. Please directly address that, and not whether or not the foreskin and the clitoris are the same. That isn't my point.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
My circ'ed dh cannot orgasm through intercourse as a direct result of the desensitization that occurs as a result of a very tight circumcision. We were not able to have children together in the normal manner as he is unable to ejaculate into my vagina.

Yes, I am not denying that that sometimes happens. I have read your story (although I forgot it was yours) and that is tragic.

It is not, however, the norm for circed men. So... not the same as clitoral removal.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Whether or not you are/were aware of this study does not change the fact that women without their external clitorises are still orgasming and claim to have perfectly satisfying sex lives. Period. The same goes for circ'd men. My specific point was, and you've yet to address this, just because these people claim their sex lives are fine, that doesn't mean that circumcision of the clitoris and foreskin doesn't have a negative impact on sexuality. Please directly address that, and not whether or not the foreskin and the clitoris are the same. That isn't my point.

I absolutely do not buy that the vast majority of women without clitorises are achieving orgasm, or that the vast majority of men who are circed are not. Don't. Believe. It. It is not my experience or consistent with my knowledge on the issue, no matter what your study happens to say.

Not the same thing. Consider it directly addressed. If you want a direct analogy, maybe talk about clitoral removal vs. removing the head of the penis. That would probably be closer. Or foreskin removal vs. clitoral hood removal. There is a direct comparison.

The drama gets on my nerves.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I absolutely do not buy that the vast majority of women without clitorises are achieving orgasm, or that the vast majority of men who are circed are not. Don't. Believe. It. It is not my experience or consistent with my knowledge on the issue, no matter what your study happens to say.

Not the same thing. Consider it directly addressed. If you want a direct analogy, maybe talk about clitoral removal vs. removing the head of the penis. That would probably be closer. Or foreskin removal vs. clitoral hood removal. There is a direct comparison.

The drama gets on my nerves.

Where did I say the vast majority did anything?! I said some, yes, circumcised women acheive orgasm. People here are saying that because they, or their husbands have no problems in the sac, that "the foreskin has nothing to do with good sex" which I highly disagree with! The acceptance of _some_ people's accounts to dismiss the negative impact circ has on sexuality is why I drew the comparison between circ'd women who said they had no problems. Just because these circ'd women have no complaints, doesn't mean removal of clitoris has no negative impact!

And how many times do I repeatedly have to say that I am not saying that the foreskin = clitoris? I am saying both of these structures, play a significant role in sensitivity and sexuality. The removal of these structures, can and does have a negative impact on *some* people's sexuality.

You say the drama gets on your nerves, but the dancing around the issue gets on my nerves. Can circumcision negatively affect a man's sexuality? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, whether it's the "vast majority" or not, why is that okay with you? Not to mention, that many men who do suffer from sexual dysfunctions never make the connection that it's their circumcisions that have caused them, and you've got an even larger picture.

I'm surprised this has to be discussed on the CAC.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yes, I am not denying that that sometimes happens. I have read your story (although I forgot it was yours) and that is tragic.

It is not, however, the norm for circed men. So... not the same as clitoral removal.

My point is not to compare with clitoral removal. It is my belief that foreskin removal is analogous to clitoral hood removal which would result in massive desensitization of the clitoris.

My point was to argue the quote from littleaugustbaby that sex with a man with intact genitalia is exactly the same as sex with a man with cut genitalia. It is not. I'm glad that it's not a problem for her, but it is for many, many others.

And I do believe very strongly that circumcision-related difficulties ARE the norm for circed men at some stage of their life. Most people just don't know that what they are experiencing -- painful intercourse, erectile dysfunction, tight erections, whatever -- aren't supposed to BE the norm.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
My point is not to compare with clitoral removal. It is my belief that foreskin removal is analogous to clitoral hood removal which would result in massive desensitization of the clitoris.

My point was to argue the quote from littleaugustbaby that sex with a man with intact genitalia is exactly the same as sex with a man with cut genitalia. It is not. I'm glad that it's not a problem for her, but it is for many, many others.

*And I do believe very strongly that circumcision-related difficulties ARE the norm for circed men at some stage of their life. Most people just don't know that what they are experiencing -- painful intercourse, erectile dysfunction, tight erections, whatever -- aren't supposed to BE the norm.*

Thank you!


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

thismama, I think the issue that needs to be addressed is this, and please correct me if I'm making any faulty assumptions...

You seem to reject the idea that male genital mutilation is the same kind of "wrong" that female genital mutilation is. So male circ is wrong, but just not AS wrong.

There are many of us here who do not follow that line of thought. Genital cutting is genital cutting and as such is a human rights violation which should be equally illegal for both sexes.

Bottom line.

Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh?


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Pardon if I am interpreting wrong:

I think she is just saying that type II/III FGM is not comparable to MGM.

WHich I feel is true. Even if we accept the studies that show the clitoris continues into the vagina, so cutting off the 'tip' isn't cutting the whole thing, it still doesn't exactly line up with male circumcision.

But type I does, and possible even some type IVs (not sure on that).

But when you move away from the mechanics of the action, then, yes, they are all comparable (all types female to male). They are all human rights violation, they all remove sexual tissue/reduce sensation, done without true consent, etcetc.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Pardon if I am interpreting wrong:

I think she is just saying that type II/III FGM is not comparable to MGM.

WHich I feel is true. Even if we accept the studies that show the clitoris continues into the vagina, so cutting off the 'tip' isn't cutting the whole thing, it still doesn't exactly line up with male circumcision.









:


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Pardon if I am interpreting wrong:

I think she is just saying that type II/III FGM is not comparable to MGM.

WHich I feel is true. Even if we accept the studies that show the clitoris continues into the vagina, so cutting off the 'tip' isn't cutting the whole thing, it still doesn't exactly line up with male circumcision.

But type I does, and possible even some type IVs (not sure on that).

*But when you move away from the mechanics of the action, then, yes, they are all comparable (all types female to male). They are all human rights violation, they all remove sexual tissue/reduce sensation, done without true consent, etcetc.*

Exactly. I never delved into the mechanics of the two structures, I specifically came out against the impact that removal of sexual tissue that affects sexuality negatively, period.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin. I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.

Having amputative cosmetic surgery on your baby's genitals so that it will match what you, as a parent, find to be sexually pleasing IS perverted. Are YOU going to have sex with your son? No? Then why carve him up to match YOUR sexual preference? That would be like forcing your teen daughter to have breast augmentation because YOU like big boobs. Now, I fully realize that those who carve up their boys based on their own sexual preference for a cut penis do NOT, in fact, expect to have sex with their son. They just expect that because THEY like a cut penis, the people their son will have sex with will also prefer a cut penis, therefore they are doing their son a favor by making sure he will have the "preferred" style of penis. It is still SICK, SICK, SICK. Imagine, again, forcing a girl to have her breasts augmented, because "most men prefer big ones; we're doing her a favor." Sick, huh?
I see no comparison between, on the one hand, carving up a baby's perfect, normal, natural body based on the PARENTS' sexual preferences, and, on the other hand, musing that one hopes one's children will be lucky enough to have sex partners who are not sexual amputees.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast).

You call 41% "really low?" And 41% is the LOWEST I've seen estimated; in reality it is probably a lot higher. But assuming that number is valid, that means more than half of the boys that may be future partners for this girl will be cut. So, yeah, she probably WILL run into circ'c partners, if she has sex with men at all.

Jen


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Studies like these are the ones people are talking about I think...

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/authors/Li...experience.htm


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh?

Well put!!









Jen


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh?

I'll second the 'Well said'. Spot on.


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

nak

this thread makes me sad...

another that has been affected by her husband's circ. Not to the extent of i_olive but enough, and yes, for years until I found MDC and this forum, thought it was my fault, something wrong with me.

of course not all will be affected by circ the same way. like a pp said, not all circs are the same, due to different anatomy, skill of the doc, and "fashions" of the time. *puke*

but back to the original post no, I would not want a daughter of mine to experience sex like *I* do.


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## GoodMomma (Aug 6, 2006)

Wow, I never thought of that. I guess since my son is circ'ed (unfortunately), both my kids are screwed.







Sorry, just trying to throw some humor in the mix.







: Ok, think of it like this... our duaghters have a better chance at finding an intact man then we would. The rates are going down, so there will be more intact males for our daughters then there were for us.


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## GoodMomma (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silverspook* 
DH not having a foreskin brought our sex life to a halt after I birthed an 11 lb baby! Sex was always uncomfortable & made me sore for a day or so, but it was unbearably painful after baby. Now that he is restoring, it is 100x better! Interesting thread...

This sure make me think....


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This study which most of us have not heard of notwithstanding, the common understanding is that the clitoris is the central point of orgasm and without it most women do not orgasm.


As previous posters have already stated, they have been studies done on circumcised women and their "orgasmic" abilities is comparable to that of intact women, interestingly enough.

The clitoris is not just a "bud" of tissue on the exterior. It contains many bulbs, several of which extend deep into the pubic mound.

Know the g-spot? That is a clitoral bulb....obviously something that is quite internal and not removed during female circumcision. The fact that many women (including myself) orgasm with only stimulation in that spot it seems that could be an explanation why many circumcised women in other cultures are orgasmic.

But, just because someone can orgasm...is that mean we can cut off as much as we can without consequence? I think not. I think even women who can orgasm that way would prefer to keep their clitoris intact as there are specific sensations that you only get from that tissue.

Same way for the intact penis. There are specific sensations given from the tissues of the foreskin, frenulum and ridged band that are lost once they are removed.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 

Bottom line.

Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh?

She said it well, I think that is the whole point of this.

I think some others here likely have a concern that marrying a circumcised man may mean their daughters may be seriously pressured to circumcise as well.

I met a man who had his son circ'd as a baby though he regretted it horribly (he was intact, his wife/doctor pressured him). He talked to his son about circumcision, but his son didn't want to hear it. When their son was old enough, got married and had twin boys...you guessed it, the boys where circ'd. He couldn't get through to his son.

I have to hope that I teach my family well enough through word and example, and that they will think logically, not be pressured by societal trends. But, ultimately as long as it is a choice in society all babies are at risk.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I was not arguing that sex would not be different if your daughter's future hypothetical male partner were circ'd as opposed to intact. Obviously it will be. Just as it will be different if he's especially large or small, if he's super tall, super short, really submissive, full of peircings etc. etc. My point is that there are so many variables to consider regarding her sex life that the best thing IMO is to let her be and let the worries subside.

I have had sex and relationships with intact men, circ'd men, women, and in my experience, neither a foreskin nor a penis is necessary for the sexual gratification or fulfillment of the woman. The level of fulfillment in my sex life has always exclusively been based upon the level of communication and chemistry I have had with my partners. It is simply not based on physicalities.

I understand that some women reach orgasm without clitoral stimulation. I do sometimes! I get it. But my point in bringing that up is to illustrate that the penis (and male foreskin) are not necessary for a woman to have a fulfilling sex life and in fact, most women in good healhty relationships (with themselves and others) have fulfilling sex lives regardless of the physical characteristics of their partner.

I understand that there are many circ complications on this board and many women (and men) here have suffered a great deal because of them. But in general, I think it's really quite cruel and shallow to judge whether or not to love and accept someone as a partner based on the physical state of any part of them (including their penis'). I think that's pretty mean, and shallow personally







.


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## blissful_maia (Feb 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I understand that there are many circ complications on this board and many women (and men) here have suffered a great deal because of them. But in general, I think it's really quite cruel and shallow to judge whether or not to love and accept someone as a partner based on the physical state of any part of them (including their penis'). I think that's pretty mean, and shallow personally







.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
But in general, I think it's really quite cruel and shallow to judge whether or not to love and accept someone as a partner based on the physical state of any part of them (including their penis'). I think that's pretty mean, and shallow personally







.

I'm sorry, but I must have missed the post where someone said that s/he wouldn't love or accept a partner based on the state of their genitals. Could you direct me?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I'm sorry, but I must have missed the post where someone said that s/he wouldn't love or accept a partner based on the state of their genitals. Could you direct me?

pg 2

Quote:

...i know i cant be with a man that is cut because I have had cut the past. so i know that the sex sucks and i dont enjoy it. I cant fall for someone who is not whole because this is a major thing that effects the whole relationship and YES i do ask....


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I'd be curious to know what parents plan to teach daughters about circumcision. I'm thinking through what and when I will educate my sons about circumcision as well.

I hope that when parents inform their children about circ, it's not in a framework that demeans individuals who have suffered circumcision.

As for whether a daughter's future partner is a circed male or not, I see both points -- yes, it's a shame that there are so many circed men and boys in the US, yes it has impact on sexuality, and yes, there is more to life, sex and successful relationships than penis status.









I hope that my children find their soulmates and have satisfying sex lives. As for the details.... that's not as important to me.

I think it's odd that a parent would actively encourage their child to choose a partner based on any physical characteristic. I think it's possibly over controlling to suggest a child go to Europe to develop familiarity with intact penises, I think it's best to let the child choose their life partner based on their desires and chemistry with others.

I would hate to see children trained to reject future partners because of penis status.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
and in fact, most women in good healthy relationships (with themselves and others) have fulfilling sex lives regardless of the physical characteristics of their partner.

I find this statement disturbing. It appears to denigrate many women on this board who have posted very personal, painful things about their experiences of circumcised sex. I am not in their shoes, but if I had shared my story, the way they have, and then read this comment, I would be deeply hurt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I understand that there are many circ complications on this board and many women (and men) here have suffered a great deal because of them. But in general, I think it's really quite cruel and shallow to judge whether or not to love and accept someone as a partner based on the physical state of any part of them (including their penis'). I think that's pretty mean, and shallow personally







.

This is a red herring. One person (as far as I'm aware) has made such a statement on this thread. Yet this quote implies that it is a widespread sentiment, which it clearly is not. Many of the women posting here have worked through extremely painful personal issues caused by male genital mutilation with their partners.

Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, and if I am, I am sorry. But that is how these statements hit me, and I am very uncomfortable with them.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Mommiska, I do not mean to denigrate the experiences shared on this board. I'm so sorry that that's how my words read







.

It sounds to me that it's rather dengrating to circ'd males and their partners to make a thread full of posts saying that sex with cric'd men automatically sucks. It doesn't. It's being put forth in a pretty heartless way as well from my perspective. Sending your kids to europe to find intact men? Doesn't that sound a bit callous? I know that only one poster made the overt statement that she wouldn't date a circ'd man and I didn't want to go back and quote her because that sometimes reads as a personal attack yk?

I am responding to the OP that I think it's harmful to make assumptions of your child's sexual orientation. It's a big leap to hang worry over whether or not her partner will be intact or not over her sexual development. It's hurtful to suggest that if her male partner has some sort of 'imperfection' (and these can come from many other sources other than circumcision, by the way) that she will be 'unfulfilled'. It places far too much responsibility on the hypothetical uncirc'd male partner to see to it that she has a fulfilling sex life. I think that's unfair and kinda dangerous thinking.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
My circ'ed dh cannot orgasm through intercourse as a direct result of the desensitization that occurs as a result of a very tight circumcision. We were not able to have children together in the normal manner as he is unable to ejaculate into my vagina.

I dated a man with a similar problem, who could not orgasm through intercourse and instead needed vigorous masturbation to climax. I dont' think it's THAT uncommon, unfortunately.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska* 
This is a red herring. One person (as far as I'm aware) has made such a statement on this thread. Yet this quote implies that it is a widespread sentiment, which it clearly is not. Many of the women posting here have worked through extremely painful personal issues caused by male genital mutilation with their partners.

Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, and if I am, I am sorry. But that is how these statements hit me, and I am very uncomfortable with them.









: Only one woman on here stated she wouldn't be with a circumcised man. Then I guess you assumed we all agreed with her maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by l_olive

Bottom line.

Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 

It sounds to me that it's rather dengrating to circ'd males and their partners to make a thread full of posts saying that sex with cric'd men automatically sucks. It doesn't .

I know what youre saying, I do. But I feel like in this thread these kinds of statements, going into detail about how circ'd sex "sucks" were after there were a number of posts made about circed sex is "just fine" and "there is nothing wrong with it". The reality is that its somewhere in the middle. That there are real women out there dealing with a gradient of severity of problems due to their husbands circ, and it effects them all differently.

That doesnt mean that every sexual encounter with an intact male will be problem free, but the term used in the first post was "normal". And on this board, in this company, "normal" vaginal / anal sex is most exclusively defined as vaginal / anal sex with all male and female parts present.

Basically, the debate about the specifics of how sex with circed men is not normal came after these women were told they were silly or gross for hoping for something for their children, male or female; to have normal sex. And that debate could be seen as dismissive to their valid feelings, even if people dont agree with or where those feelings are coming from.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska* 
I can't compare, as I've only been with my intact dh. But I've heard enough (both here, and from friends with circed husbands) to know that circumcised sex is different (and not in a good way) from normal, intact sex.

I don't recognise the need for artificial lube, the pounding away, the soreness/chaffing, etc that are described by many women with cut partners.

Of course there is more to the sex act than just genitals meeting - and I'm sure there are many circed men out there who are good, considerate sexual partners. And those cut men who have looser cuts are probably lucky - I would imagine that the severity of the circumcision would impact on how badly it affects the sexual act itself.

Yep yep!


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 







: Only one woman on here stated she wouldn't be with a circumcised man. Then I guess you assumed we all agreed with her maybe?

I responded to this a couple posts up.

I hope it is not coming across that I am in any way suggesting that not everyone deserves to remain intact. My sons are not circumcised, for the record







.
I just think it's over-the-top to worry about a daughter's future sexual experiences with a possibly circ'd possible male. That's all really.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I responded to this a couple posts up.

*I hope it is not coming across that I am in any way suggesting that everyone deserves to remain intact.* My sons are not circumcised, for the record







.
I just think it's over-the-top to worry about a daughter's future sexual experiences with a possibly circ'd possible male. That's all really.









I was writing my post when you posted.

Do you mean you do think everyone should remain intact (with the part I bolded)?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

yup. Bad typo.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
yup. Bad typo.









That's what I thought but I couldn't figure out what word you had left out, now I see.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

it took me a bit to figure it out too


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

There are two separate issues which are getting confused here:
1. The assumption that the OP's dd will be heterosexual. Admittedly, when most of us straight people think of our children's future, we often project that they will be straight, too.














've been guilty of this myself.
2. The affect of circumcision on one's sexuality. Sexuality is a complicated subject; what one person loves will repel another person. Sex with a circ'ed man will vary depending on whether he had a tight or loose circ. I have no research to back this up, but I suspect that many women who insist that sex with a circ'ed man makes no difference to them are lucky enough to have partners with loose circ's, which means he still has some foreskin left. Or maybe they are lucky enough to orgasm easily.
For those of you who claim that sex with a circ'ed man is no different from that with an intact man, keep in mind that this may change as you get older and produce less lubrication. What is ok when you're young may become intolerable when you're older.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Well, if it's any consolation, my dh is circed (my boys are not and he was absolutely fine with that) and we have a great, great, great sex life. Maybe I just orgasm easily, but whatever, it's good for us both. Do I wish he wasn't circ'd? Absolutely, but for him, not me. For me, one of the biggest turn ons with dh is how much I love him, circ'd or not.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *njeb* 
I have no research to back this up, but I suspect that many women who insist that sex with a circ'ed man makes no difference to them are lucky enough to have partners with loose circ's, which means he still has some foreskin left. Or maybe they are lucky enough to orgasm easily.

I had to go look up the difference, but based on the pictures I found, DH has a tight circ. So your first assumption doesn't apply to me. Do I orgasm easily? I don't know. I can't really compare...

FTR, I am not trying to "insist" anything. I am just stating my personal experience. I know its limited. I just don't like the absolute language people use to nullify it, or somehow conclude that I am misinformed for having it, and that if I knew better, if society hadn't so crippled from seeing the light, that I would agree with you.







:


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

Re: the last post. I also think it depends on the woman's amount of natural lubrication. That sounds so weird, but with my husband, who has a rather tight circ imo, when I am naturally lubricated the sex isnt as uncomfortable than it is with artificial lubrication. So if youre blessed with a lot of lubrication to begin with, circ status would certainly effect you less, (my guess).
However, in having three intact partners in my life time, my personal experience is the gliding motion does have a positive effect on my enjoyment.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dealic* 
I had to go look up the difference, but based on the pictures I found, DH has a tight circ. So your first assumption doesn't apply to me. Do I orgasm easily? I don't know. I can't really compare...

FTR, I am not trying to "insist" anything. I am just stating my personal experience. I know its limited. I just don't like the absolute language people use to nullify it, or somehow conclude that I am misinformed for having it, and that if I knew better, if society hadn't so crippled from seeing the light, that I would agree with you.







:

Ok, so maybe "insist" was too strong of a word. I am far from an absolutist when it comes to sexuality; I've been married to a circ'ed man for 21 years, and yes, I have had vaginal orgasms with him. I think it's great that you have a good sex life with your dh.








In my own case, however, I also think our sex life would have been better if he'd been left intact, for reasons I'm not comfortable talking about on the internet..... I don't think that circumcision means doom for your sex life, far from it! You can find ways to work around it.







But for some people, NOT ALL, it can cause problems.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *njeb* 
Ok, so maybe "insist" was too strong of a word. I am far from an absolutist when it comes to sexuality; I've been married to a circ'ed man for 21 years, and yes, I have had vaginal orgasms with him. I think it's great that you have a good sex life with your dh.








In my own case, however, I also think our sex life would have been better if he'd been left intact, for reasons I'm not comfortable talking about on the internet..... I don't think that circumcision means doom for your sex life, far from it! You can find ways to work around it.







But for some people, NOT ALL, it can cause problems.

I completely agree. I don't know how our sexual relationship would be different if he hadn't have been circ'd. It may have been better. Either way, the "better" choice is always against RIC regardless. And I think for him, it would have been better. Losing the nerve endings there can't help but reduce pleasure.


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## Julz6871 (Jun 14, 2006)

As a mother of daughters I just hope they find men who treat them well and love and respect them. Their penis status will not be within their control, and people in love work things out. I don't sit around and wish for them to find men with large penises, or small ones, or ones that lean to the left, or black ones, or white ones, or pink ones-all variations of nature. I just wish they find a good human being, and the rest will fall into place. (not negating those who have been harmed by RIC, but you love your partners so much you are working together on a solution).

I have been with intact men and circed men and men from three different races. I ended up marrying an African man with a tight circ (so tight it causes his penis to curve down a bit). The sex he and I share is intensely pleasurable for me, and the best I have had. One of the intact men I was in a long term relationship with had a penis that curved to the left so much it caused me pain in certain positions. Can't say I have been with a man who was "too small" but I am sure someone on this board may have had that experience. So for the op, there are so many variations that you cannot control and even though circumcision isn't one of the natural variations we have to accept it exists and trust that our children will have the capacity to love deeply and choose partners are generous. So while I will say intact is the ideal, it does not guarantee anything in the satisfaction department. If there were not sexual preferences, there would not be 90 billion (making that up) different categories of pornography, or those fetish circ people-there is a doc in Atlanta who performs hundreds elective circs every year on men over 18, or piercings, or whips, or toys. Sadly, not every man gets to make the CHOICE about his own foreskin but I wouldn't lose any sleep over my girls' future based on some closed minded parents.

I think more important than the issue of circumcision to our daughter's sex lives is education about anatomy, and self esteem, and their ability to talk openly about sex (hopefully able to articulate their needs to their partners). How well they know themselves and their own likes has a much more direct impact on their sexual satisfaction and is an aspect they can actually control.

I imagine my husband and I would be hurt if we thought my parents lost sleep over the mutilation status of his penis. We talked about it (when we chose not to circ our children) and then he and I got over it and it is a non-issue. If sexual dysfunction arises in the future, he and I would tackle it head on together. Hopefully my daughters will do the same when they are old enough and in mature fullfilling relationships.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *+stella+* 
Re: the last post. I also think it depends on the woman's amount of natural lubrication. That sounds so weird, but with my husband, who has a rather tight circ imo, when I am naturally lubricated the sex isnt as uncomfortable than it is with artificial lubrication. So if youre blessed with a lot of lubrication to begin with, circ status would certainly effect you less, (my guess)..

That may be. I produce (TMI warning) copious amounts of lubrication. That's only a problem rarely, and only when using the wrong brand of condom, on a day when I am producing less. Which I would expect, would be the same regardless of circ status.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

There is a world of difference between:

"I hope that when my child finds a long-term sexual partner, that that partner happens to be intact" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

and:

"I hope that if my child finds a long-term sexual partner and discovers that he is not intact, he/she rejects that partner for this reason" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

There is also a world of difference between:

"I worry night and day with great intensity that my child will find a partner who is not intact" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

and:

"It saddens me to think that my child's chances of finding an intact partner are less because we live in a culture where the cutting of male children is still a common practice." (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

I worry about a lot of things for my children's future. I worry about the state of the environment, I worry about world peace, I worry about my own mortality and the possibility of leaving them prematurely, I worry about their future health..............the list is endless. But I don't have sleepless nights about it, and I don't worry about the specifics of their futures, or the specifics of their future sex lives. I don't think I"m unusual in the fact that I think about all these aspects of their future at different times, and their sexual future is a part of their future. I'd prefer them to not have any unnecessary challenges in life, and it saddens me that the culture of genital mutilation in this country could affect them even though I left them intact. I"d prefer them to not face this potential challenge, and I wish that it wasn't even a possibility. Not that I have sleepless nights about it though.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
There is a world of difference between:

"I hope that when my child finds a long-term sexual partner, that that partner happens to be intact" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

and:

"I hope that if my child finds a long-term sexual partner and discovers that he is not intact, he/she rejects that partner for this reason" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

There is also a world of difference between:

"I worry night and day with great intensity that my child will find a partner who is not intact" (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

and:

"It saddens me to think that my child's chances of finding an intact partner are less because we live in a culture where the cutting of male children is still a common practice." (because in spite of anecdotal evidence, the fact is that my child's chances of having a fulfilling sex life is greater)

I worry about a lot of things for my children's future. I worry about the state of the environment, I worry about world peace, I worry about my own mortality and the possibility of leaving them prematurely, I worry about their future health..............the list is endless. But I don't have sleepless nights about it, and I don't worry about the specifics of their futures, or the specifics of their future sex lives. I don't think I"m unusual in the fact that I think about all these aspects of their future at different times, and their sexual future is a part of their future. I'd prefer them to not have any unnecessary challenges in life, and it saddens me that the culture of genital mutilation in this country could affect them even though I left them intact. I"d prefer them to not face this potential challenge, and I wish that it wasn't even a possibility. Not that I have sleepless nights about it though.









Wonderfully put, Britishmum.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **bejeweled** 
Your daughter is 4 yo and you're sad about her future sex life?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Creepy.

I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrogirl* 
I really could care less, honestly. I've had both types of partners, ended up marrying an 'intact' european man, but i can safely say there was no reason for my mom to feel sad for me when I was with my circumcised partners.







And to be brutally honest, before I became Anti-Circ - I preferred my sex life with the Circ'd men







: Sorry to burst that bubble there.

I'm in the opposite boat - I'll be the one trying to bite my tongue if my daughters come home with a european man (or even a man at all







). Penis aside, they're a lot of work compared to the other men I've dated.







: Between the culture clashes and 'where to live' neverending argument, as well as trying NOT to insult each other everytime we encounter a difference that we can't understand.....I wouldn't wish that on anyone.









Besides, the circ rate in Canada is only 18%. I'd say her odds are pretty good.

I've been with both, and I don't care either way. It's maybe a little rougher with a circed man, but I like that. I can orgasm with either, thru just intercourse.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 







:ummm







i know i cant be with a man that is cut because I have had cut the past. so i know that the sex sucks and i dont enjoy it. I cant fall for someone who is not whole because this is a major thing that effects the whole relationship and YES i do ask.







i will continue my education of my children (and everyone else) on what is wrong with cutting a baby and why it is bad. when they are bigger i will go in to it fully so that they understand it. i will share my past with my dd's and even my ds's and let them know that the sex is bad.














think that it takes alot of woman to speak up saying that sex is bad. maybe then people will start to listen.







:

The sex was NOT bad, and I'm not gonna lie & say it was. It was great!!!

No, I wouldn't have a son circed. It's not even covered by our medical plan here, and it's not done locally either.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I worry about a lot of things for my children's future. I worry about the state of the environment, I worry about world peace, I worry about my own mortality and the possibility of leaving them prematurely, I worry about their future health..............the list is endless. But I don't have sleepless nights about it, and I don't worry about the specifics of their futures, or the specifics of their future sex lives. I don't think I"m unusual in the fact that I think about all these aspects of their future at different times, and their sexual future is a part of their future. I'd prefer them to not have any unnecessary challenges in life, and it saddens me that the culture of genital mutilation in this country could affect them even though I left them intact. I"d prefer them to not face this potential challenge, and I wish that it wasn't even a possibility. Not that I have sleepless nights about it though.









Ah, that sums it up for me, too. It wasn't a _big_ worry for me-- just something I had thought about-- and worried about-- a couple of times, briefly. I'm not obsessing over it over here. Anyway, I may never even have a daughter at all.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
It's hurtful to suggest that if her male partner has some sort of 'imperfection' (and these can come from many other sources other than circumcision, by the way) that she will be 'unfulfilled'. It places far too much responsibility on the hypothetical uncirc'd male partner to see to it that she has a fulfilling sex life. I think that's unfair and kinda dangerous thinking.

I get what you are saying, but I think, to an extent, people have been talking at cross purposes on this thread.

I don't think that circed sex automatically equals bad sex, any more than being married to someone who is bipolar (as an example) means that you are going to have a difficult relationship.

However, male genital mutilation plays a significant role in sexual dysfunction - be that mild dysfunction (the guy has slightly uncomfortable erections, or maybe needs a bit more forceful stimulation in order to climax) or severe dysfunction, as described by some posters on this board.

Just as being bipolar can cause issues in a relationship (I know - my SIL's partner is bipolar...he's a great guy, and they are doing well, but there are issues they have to work through due to this issue in his life).

As Britishmum (other others) have said - this isn't something that I obsess about. But when it crosses my mind, it makes me sad that this is an issue my daughters _might_ have to deal with in their future.

I think that is where most posters in this thread are with this issue.

And as njeb said - it would be interesting to know the effects of circumcision on adult sexual functioning into middle age and later life. I think that some things that are OK when you are young, are not so OK as you get older...

For me, making sure all of my children are informed about male genital mutilation and the effects it can have on both partners is key (just as my SIL has educated herself about being bipolar). Knowledge can help significantly in working through issues caused by a cut partner.

However, it is important to acknowledge that some circumcision related dysfunction is extremely severe and knowledge about its causes won't necessarily help.









It still amazes me that cutting a newborn's genitals is even legal.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

If I were to be worried about my daughters' hypothetical future sex lives (which I actually do, from time to time, because I'm a worrywart), I worry that they will end up with partners who do not love them. Partners who do not respect them. Partners who are unkind to them. Partners who do not make them happy. These are what I worry about, not anyone's penile state. If my daughter (either of them) finds her soul mate, and he happens to be circumcised, I don't believe that should be an impediment to their relationship. And if she ends up with the wrong man, the foreskin or lack thereof will be the least of her problems.

I do know that circumcision (male and female) has an effect on sexual sensitivity, but I am bothered by the boiling down of a relationship to purely the genital element.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.









Just in case no one else said it in 7 pages:

You are assuming that uncircumcized men don't get ED, that neither of them (your daughter and her husband) will be overweight (which, trust me, makes things interesting), and that she will marry a "normal" man rather than one with a handicap or infirmity that prevents a "normal" sex life.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Correct. But do you deny that circumcision can impact a man's sexuality negatively? Circumcised women claim to still have orgasms and enjoy sex despite having their external clitorises removed, but none of use would ever say "There's more to good sex than just the clitoris"







:


Please remember, that just as some women can have orgasms WITHOUT clitoral stimulation, for some women, they need MORE than JUST clitoral stimulation.


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## Ecstatic (Aug 13, 2007)

Wow. New here. Just read this whole thread. I had no idea circumcision affected the woman's sex life. I knew it affected a man's pleasure and sensation ... but, I had no clue about the female part of it.

I would never circumcise my son (if I have a son) as I think it's barbaric.

Just from personal experience, though, my S/O is circumcised. (He thinks it's barbaric as well, as do his parents ... but he was adopted at 6 weeks, and already circumcised by then.) The reason I didn't even think about the affect on woman is because (sorry if this is too much information) our sex life is fantastic. I mean REALLY fantastic, lol. This is true for the times when we have "quickies" and I'm not as wet to the times where we have hours of foreplay.









So, I wouldn't write off all those circumcised men just yet. There is hope for them too.







In my experience (which admittedly is not vast, lol), it's a matter of finding an attentive, open lover who is aroused by his partner's arousal. If one has that, then the sky is the limit. Again, obviously, just my personal experience.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Where is the old thread we did this to death on already? (I am catching up & just caught the first & last pages. The last one I mentioned my adult dd & wondering for her sake & recieved the same 'eek! you shouldn't think of such things!' response, though there was much valuable discussion as well.)

So here's my update:
Dd (20) has since gotten her first bf, & he is Puerto Rican (from Puerto Rico), & I haven't asked, but she has been walking about 3 ft off the ground since they began a physical relationship







. I think she got the message.

I am separating from my dh, & a primary cause is suck-ass sex (but if he wasn't being a turd otherwise, I wouldn't have left over it). So hello, pro-circ relatives having spasms over our divorce? (I don't know why, since I won't keep the kids from seeing anyone, & in fact moved 800 miles closer to an inlaw, but the fact remains that they are very freaked.) Great sex _might_ have kept me around. Just a thought. You even screwed up his ability to masturbate properly without lube or rubbing himself raw, won't being single be just a blast for him?

If (when!) I date, I will be happy to enjoy 'normal' sex (with a man







) if that is who I am attracted to & we hook up (and where I moved, my odds are a lot better







), & I am certainly not looking for anything but FWB after *this*, but if a guy I like ends up to be circ'd, I will be sad it happened to him (and educate him why- the bumper sticker is going to elicit some conversation, I imagine!), but of course I would still like him, enjoy the sex (since it isn't mandatory for newly divorced ladies







- unenjoyable sex isn't going to be a frequent thing in my new life), & not 'reduce people to their genitals'.

I am glad my dd is educated & knows what she wanted, & had the ability to make an informed choice in lovers. I can't see anything weird or wrong about that (and if anyone thinks she somehow got intactively brainwashed & picked a bf to please Mum, puhLEEZE. But even with teenagers determined to rebel, there are some things so self-evidently destructive even they won't condone them.







)

There is no friend of my dd's that doesn't know the function of the foreskin or think that circ is revolting, cruel, inhuman. These are today's young adult women, a different American generation. One that won't HAVE to settle, for lack of choice, if they decide normal (hetero or ****) sexuality with whole genitals is something they would prefer to live with. If pro-cutters think the girls their sons will date won't find out and know, they are wrong. If pro-cutters think their sons won't figure it out, they are mistaken.

(PS If it is 'creepy' to speak of the masturbation habits of grown offspring, then why advocate sticking your proboscis in their sex lives enough to consider removing a functional sex organ from them & their partners for the rest of their lives? Now that's creepy!)


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## Kimono (Aug 29, 2004)

Yeah I've thought about that before in regards to my DD. Well, if we stay in Canada, the men she meets are likely to be intact. I don't think she should reject men who aren't intact. I just hope that she finds a really compatible, kind man of high character. If he is intact, that is icing on the cake.

I think this is an important topic because it seems to me that many people in the US, men and women, do not understand the purpose of the foreskin or how its absence can affect their sex lives.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Nobody is suggesting that the OP's children (either of them!) should prefer a circed penis to an intact one. But I do find the post heterosexist, and just a bit overly focused on the foreskin and its connection to sexuality. There is a lot to sexuality and there is no way to know whether either child will have or want a partner with a foreskin, and what that might or might not mean to their sex lives.

What exactly do you mean by "want"? By saying that, you really make it sound like you support circumcision being a choice for parents to make, or if not that, at least it's nice that there are both natural and circumcised penises out there because some partner might "want" one choice over another. Circumcision should simply be illegal. Having a foreskin shouldn't be a choice for parents to make, and a partner being chosen based on whether or not he has his foreskin shouldn't be tolerated, either.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blissful_maia* 
This is a really weird thread! I would just support your daughter to have a healthy sex life with whoever she falls in love with - man, woman, circ'ed or not. Sheesh.

Well, I understand her line of thought. My sex life is unhealthy _because_ my husband is circ'd (not that everyone will be like this, but this is me I'm talking about here). It's extremely painful, we have to use lots of lube for it to even be un-painful (and I make a LOT of lube naturally...but sex is always dry) and then it's just mechanical because with that much lube you can't feel anything... Since he started restoring, it's become slightly better, and I assume it will get better over time... but we still go months at a time between sessions and I know our relationship suffers for it as well. Neither of us are sexaholics but I think both of us agree we'd like to be close more than 3x a year.

I get it.


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## Pumpkin_Blythe (Jun 19, 2007)

My daughter is 3 and the LAST thing on my mind is if her husband will be intact. lol Let them be kids for a while. They will grow up fast enough!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Blythe* 
My daughter is 3 and the LAST thing on my mind is if her husband will be intact. lol Let them be kids for a while. They will grow up fast enough!

Actually, my dd's future happiness has always mattered to me. Fast enough indeed; you'll blink, they'll be sexually active (even if they are 'good girls' uke), it will still eventually come up.

You'll wonder, did you talk to them truthfully & openly about sexual matters, or continue the paradigm of shame that perpetuates things like men wanting to skin their son's penises alive rather than think about the entirety of the horror that was perpetrated upon themselves, or women who won't put in a tampon because they'd have to touch themselves 'down there'?

I'm 100% without regrets that my dd knew *before* the time came.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Nobody is suggesting that the OP's children (either of them!) should prefer a circed penis to an intact one. But I do find the post heterosexist, and just a bit overly focused on the foreskin and its connection to sexuality.

Um, a foreskin is DIRECTLY connected to any sexuality involving a male, be it gay, straight, solo, or whatever, or at least it ought to be. The post isn't heterosexist, its just rational. Considering the odds, its safe to assume that the OP's child will be straight.

Quote:

There is a lot to sexuality and there is no way to know whether either child will have or want a partner with a foreskin, and what that might or might not mean to their sex lives.
To see how sick that sounds, let me modify it slightly: "There is a lot to sexuality and there is no way to know whether either child will have or want a partner with a *clitoris*, and what that might or might not mean to their sex lives."

Cutting a nonconsenting person is wrong, regardless of gender.


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