# Do you keep your kids away from other kids?



## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

I mean this in the nice possible way, but...

I feel like other people's kids are really bad influences on mine. She is quick to imitate/copy/pick up bad behaviors and then it takes SO long for her to overcome them. In general I'm just NOT a fan of this generation of kids. Is that horrible to say, or what?!

I feel like homeschooling will help since she's picking up bad behaviors at her preschool, but even so, it's kids around here that are really obnoxious. I live in a place where parents are very free-flowing and don't have rules. I'm a HUGE fan of as little rules as necessary, but these kids have almost zero rules. It's been so hard.

I just picked up a copy of "Hold on to Your Kids" and the author goes into detail about what I'm feeling...that kids these days aren't as well-mannered as previous generations. His theory is that children follow their peers instead of adults and therefore don't learn to listen to adults. This seems like it's really true of what I see going on. Kids believe other kids more than adults.

I don't really know what to do...I know it would be wrong to keep her completely from other kids, but it's very tempting until she's at an age when she can stand on her own two feet, understand what isn't right (behavior-wise), and follow her heart instead of just wanting to fit in.


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## CheapPearls (Aug 7, 2007)

I think it's perfectly fine to keep your children away from specific kids that you believe would be a bad influence but keeping them away from _all_ other children because you are worried about behaviors rubbing off doesn't seem healthy IMO. But I think you already know that. Yes it's tempting though.









Can you find families that parent in ways similar to you? There's AP groups, homeschool groups, etc. Make friends and have playdates. Not everyone lets their kids run wild, even though it may seem like you are surrounded by them.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Complaints about the general worthlessness and rudeness of youth have been on record since Ancient Greece. And the reason we don't have them from before that is that the records deteriorate.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but you are going to need to overcome your aversion to kids her age. Ideally, soon. My son is two, and while yes, he has picked up the occasional bit of bad behavior at daycare, he's also taken some bad behavior in. It's not like the devil-children at the DC corrupted my innocent angel. It's more like, they all got together and compared notes.

Anyone who has ever been lonely has some level of desire to fit in, so you're probably best off finding a group of parents you like and kids your own child's age who you can cope with.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
I just picked up a copy of "Hold on to Your Kids" and the author goes into detail about what I'm feeling...that kids these days aren't as well-mannered as previous generations. His theory is that children follow their peers instead of adults and therefore don't learn to listen to adults. This seems like it's really true of what I see going on. Kids believe other kids more than adults.

I'm a fan of "Hold on to Your Kids," but I didn't pull what you are getting from the book. My understanding is that kids will form affiliations or attachments, and the lack of strong parental affiliation or attachment predispositions the child to form strong peer attachments, which he terms "peer orientation." Where the primary orientation is will be where the child looks for guidance and acceptance. Obviously, children are not mature enough to parent other children.

A preschool aged child is bound to imitate other children - regardless of where the primary orientation is. The role of the parent is to discuss what behavior is acceptable, why and vice versa. A young child left to sort this out on his or her own can not be expected to make good decisions.

Neufeld and Mate give good pointers to parents on how to keep attachments with their children strong, or reattach if necessary. I doubt, though, that they would advocate keeping a child completely away from other children.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

I think you might be seeing one of the peaks of imitating group behaviour. It's not fun to navigate so I understand what you are feeling.

For me, I think homeschooling has allowed us to be selective of the kinds of kids we want to spend the majority of our with. And when we encounter families whose expectations for behaviour are different than our family's, it gives us a chance to talk about that in ways that reinforce the values that are important to us. It gives my kids a chance to stretch their problem solving skills and sometimes their compassion and/or tolerance.

I don't think keeping kids apart from others is the answer. I do think that it's important to be present for your kids and to be able to step in and help when it is needed.

For example I just sent some neighbourhood kids home. My kids have tendency to clash with these kids and these particular kids don't have a lot of skills in constructive or creative problem solving. Almost every issue quickly devolves into them calling my kids names, excluding or shunning, general stereotypical schoolyard nastiness. It would be easier for me to just say that they aren't allowed to play here ( and it often cross my mind







) but I also need to be aware of what affect me declaring these kids off limits will be as they seem to be particularly attractive to one of my kids. So it is my preference to be really present when they are hear which tends to have a dampening effect on out of bounds behaviour and allows me to 1) reinforce our family rules to keep my kids safe and help them be respectful and 2) help my kids and by extension the neigbhourhood kids develop some better problem solving tactics. In contrast we have another neighbourhood family and the kids are lovely and really play well with all my kids and I would hate for my kids to miss out on that friendship.

Our larger homeschool group has a similar dynamic with kids who I think are great and who I really enjoy and other kids that we tend to limit our contact with. It's the same for me as an adult. I want to help my kids learn to discern the kinds of friends they want and the way they want their friends to treat them. I hope by doing this now they will have a stronger sense in their teenage years when the stakes are raised.

Good luck - navigating this stuff is rarely easy unfortunately.

Karen


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

No, I don't keep my kids from other kids.

And I think a lot of the times, the problems with kids in large peer groups, is that there is a minimal level of supervision and adult feedback about particular activities. This is reduced in a lot of homeschooling communities because families often attend events together. And while the kids often go and do their own thing, there is more of a presence, and swifter intervention when problems arise.

But no, I don't keep my kids from other kids, and think peer interactions are very important. And I can't help but admit that when I saw one woman be open about how she's glad to find a homeschool group so she can avoid Those Daycare Kids and their bad habits, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and didn't have me feeling particularly comfortable with her.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

The great thing about homeschooling is that you _do_ have an incredible opportunity to create the kinds of environments your child will do best in, including the people he or she learns from.

My oldest is such a social guy, he loves playing with friends! The challenge for me was finding a way for him to be with other kids and adults who would honor him for who he is at heart, teach/model for him positive skills and behaviors, and who he could have a good time with.

As luck would have it, we were able to forego the typical preschool route when a friend of mine invited us to join a 6-child at-home preschool co-op she was putting together. He participated in it twice a week for about 8 months, until we moved. He made friends, and I knew and trusted the moms, who had similar value systems and goals as I did. Of course, we were all different people in many ways, but it still worked SO well. I also learned a lot through that and from seeing my son grow in healthy ways, my trust of him being with others grew.

When I moved, we created our own co-op with mothers I met with children of close ages, and that was wonderful, until he was 5. He has always been a Leader type, starting games and inviting others to play, which makes it easier for me (He wasn't the one to pick up bad behaviors from kids, but he did occasionally from TV! Whole 'nother thread,







) . If things came up, we'd talk about what our family values are and how he can make good choices in how he speaks and acts no matter where he is. That works well for his age. He now is 6 and no more regular playgroups, but there are a few friends he has in the neighborhood, and I know I can trust him in their homes and they come to our, also.

I would add, that it can be helpful to read about socio-emotional stages so you can become better acquainted with what is normal and what needs attention in children of various ages. This helped me a lot to see through what might seem annoying behaviors, which were actually quite normal to certain ages and stages (like biting and hitting in toddlers, which needed correction or prevention, but was normal for that age), and to recognize when a child may be acting out consistently, and their parent avoided correcting their behavior, making it not a safe or happy person for my son to be around--we tended to avoid those situations.

One-on-one play is also a good way for kids to learn the social aspect without a lot of "overload" (for child or mom) and gives you a good opportunity to support them in making friends perhaps at a pace that works well for you as you are navigating this as a parent. ETA: Remember to provide things for them to play with, but spend more time letting them lead their own activities and just help when asked. They need time and space to figure things out, and I have found my son really appreciates his space when he has a friend over. If he needs me, he'll call for me (and occasionally I'll step in to referee if things get out of hand, but that's few and far between)


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

In the young years no, because most of the incidences of bad influence are developmentally normal things. My kids never threw tantrums, but had friends that did. And my kids never snatched toys, but had friends that did. Things like that I just consider part of the normal learning curve of growing up- even though I lucked out with my super mellow kids.

As they grew older I did and do keep them away from kids that display abusive behavior- physically or mentally. Kids that are very rude, or highly manipulative. A child has to be pretty bad before I say "mmm no."

I also tend to steer my kids away from kids with parents I would never in a million years associate with. I'm not talking poor vs rich (we are pretty low on that totem pole), but pretty much lifestyles I don't agree with. Violence, active addicts things like that.

We are over protective and I always give people the benefit of the doubt before I make a judgment call.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

There have been a couple of kids I didn't want my dd to hang around a lot but I haven't really thought I needed to keep her away from all kids.

Your dd sounds pretty young. I think it is perfectly okay to limit peer socializing at that age. Maybe just try to find 1 or 2 families that are more of your mind to hang out with instead of putting her in a group setting.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

no i don't keep my kids away from specific children. we have one child that isn't my favorite for my dd. but we simply keep playdates at our house, which allows a little more supervision from my part. i wouldn't allow my daughter to spend the night at their home, but this little girl is welcome in ours. as my children get older, i'll evaluate situations as they arise & step in if needed. i think if i severed a friendship without my kids being part of that decision though, it would take away from the growth & lesson they may have learned & simply leave my kids feeling bitter with me. ykwim?

fwiw, my little girl is 7 1/2. she picks up mannerisms of her friends too. i think that is very common in children, especially girls.

ETA: if my child doesn't like a specific child, i will limit contact for sure. my post is in reference to kids that my children seem to really enjoy but *i* have issues with.


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## zjande (Nov 4, 2002)

Dude, I keep my kids away from a whole lotta kids. I would go so far to say that I'd probably prefer to avoid most kids. I find many kids out there in the world that are very exposed to TV, float around the PS school system, haven't been taught morals, & just generally get their beliefs & ideas from pop culture crap instead of their family, to be humans that I do not want my impressionable kids spending large amounts of time with. We've had good luck with our local homeschool group, though. My kids have made plenty of friends with non-obnoxious kids.

Just to clarify, I know that all kids do weird or rude things at times, but what I'm talking about are kids that just run by & trample toddlers at the park & don't even slow down, cuss & swear, yell instead of talk, talk back to adults constantly, & are just downright rude without being corrected by their parent.

We were picking strawberries today at u-pick. There was a little boy who lived there at the strawberry farm. He was about 4. No kidding at all, he called *every single person* that entered his parent's strawberry patch "dirtbag, poop head or jerkface". Everyone! Right in front his mom! Then he turned the hose on my friend's 4 yr old while she screamed, threw strawberries at my 11 yr old all the while calling him horrible names, & then yelled "don't hit me with your bag dirtbag!" at my friend who had never spoken a word to him but happened to be walking past him carrying a bag. I'm so glad my own 3 yr old wasn't with me to witness his behavior.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I don't keep my kid away from other kids. I have faith that with the emphasis we put on ethical treatment and respect, he will do the right thing. That doesn't mean he always _does_, but that he's learning slowly what really is right and wrong. Why would I steal such an experience from him to put him in a bubble?

He went paintballing the other day. Lots of kids, few chaperones. We were due to meet the group at 8:45 so we walked up at 8:20 (because early is better than late.







) It took a while for the group to get going (I was there until 9:30), but it did give me a chance to watch how about 20 kids between the ages of 8 and 13 handled themselves. They climbed on the sign, ran around in the store, play fought, bounced off the van....in general rowdy little boys and girls.

My child was not an angel, but nor was he one of the worst. He didn't climb on the sign, he didn't bounce off the van. He ran with the group until they got into the store and then decided that "blocking" the entrance was a way to maintain his status without going the full amok. (or in his words "I wasn't going to run in there! But I couldn't stop playing, they would have chased me!")

He's learning. Enough work on teaching how to figure out what's right or not is helping him now navigate his way at an age where there's less supervision and more danger. I have to be able to trust him in a few years to do what's right when no one is watching, when he has to deal with the peer pressure on his own.

It starts early. If your goal is perfection, a child who is an angel in your eyes, by all means don't allow your child to be with others. But also note that it will take longer for your child to be able to stand on her own two feet and learn right from wrong/what to do when others are in the wrong.

If your goal is to teach, take advantage of those opportunities! Let her have a friend over one at a time so she can figure out how to handle conflicts. Increase the group size as she shows more backbone.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
In general I'm just NOT a fan of this generation of kids.

Are you serious? I find that disturbing. As your child's peers, unless you plan on locking her in a closet for the rest of her life, you're going to have to find a way to relate to this generation. Some people are rude, sometimes people act unkindly. It's not restricted to any particular generation and I honestly don't see it applying across the board to an entire generation.

Quote:

I don't really know what to do...I know it would be wrong to keep her completely from other kids, but it's very tempting until she's at an age when she can stand on her own two feet, understand what isn't right (behavior-wise), and follow her heart instead of just wanting to fit in.
Around what age do you think this might occur?

I have not kept my kids away from other kids. There are some kids mine have not wanted to associate with, and that's their choice to make, but I wouldn't keep them away from other kids.

When they were small, I was on hand to help them sort out disagreements when they needed me to. I still give them ideas for how to respond to certain things or resolve difficulties. We talk about choices they make and choices others make.

I think that learning to "do the right thing" happens through experience. Sometimes it happens after we see reactions to having done the wrong thing. Sometimes the right thing is obvious, other times it takes some thought and angst. I'm not even sure HOW one would prevent contact with a whole segment of society, but if you could, I don't think it would be healthy. How can one learn to be social without BEING social?

I think that, being an involved parent, who's there as an example and advisor would be the way to go.


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## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SagMom* 
Are you serious? I find that disturbing.


Oh yes, I'm serious. In general I don't like other kids, only my own. There are a few exceptions, but the children around us are not disciplined/parented and are left to do as they please without having rules enforced. I find them to be little monsters. Sorry if that's rough...it's true. Kids need some boundaries to learn and grow, and these kids don't have it. I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.

Maybe I'm just living in the wrong place. This kind of behavior would never have been tolerated a few generations ago...


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.

You do realize that what you are describing is age appropriate until about 6yo? Yes? Kids aren't born with filters.

With such a low tolerance for other children you might want to find a way to have a sitter take your child to playdates, clubs and other things so that your prejudices aren't affecting your child.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.


It can also be age-appropriate behavior. A young child could be at the point where they know how they feel and they're able to express it, BUT they haven't yet learned to consider how what they say might effect others. It could also be that they're still at a developmental stage where they're pretty self-centered and, in their minds, their own feelings are more important than others' feelings. Young kids are likely to just "tell it like it is" (for them) and not consider the time and effort that someone else has invested.

That's not to say I would PROMOTE these types of comments, just that they're entirely understandable.

As far as parents doing nothing: When I've felt the need to talk with one of my kids about something I don't do it in front of an audience--I'd speak with them later, in private about it, or, if a matter of urgency, I'd whisper to them or take them aside. It's possible that the parents ARE addressing these things, just not in front of you. Of course, it's also possible that they're NOT addressing them--I'm just saying it's hard to know.

And, it's not often the case that one single reminder from a parent is going to prevent the same thing from happening again. It takes time.

But your kids can learn positive things even by being witness to this. In reviewing the dinner with your kids, you could comment that it hurt your feelings when the child said that. You could say something like, "It's okay that he didn't like the dinner, but the way he said it hurt my feelings. If *I* was at a dinner, and I didn't like something, I would have just eaten the parts that I did like."


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

where do you live?







in all seriousness, it's hard to believe all children but your's act like little monsters. and i also find it hard to believe all parents but you do absolutely nothing to redirect behavior. i would do 1 of 2 things. i would either move away quickly, or i'd re-examine my own outlook to see if my perception is misguided. i'm sorry you are having a hard time. i hope you are able to sort through your feelings and find a solution, especially for your children's sake.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
Maybe I'm just living in the wrong place. This kind of behavior would never have been tolerated a few generations ago...


even if that were true, it's just not helpful to your current situation. we can't time travel to our *ideal* era, and therefore you need to figure out how to handle this. i don't think isolating your kids is an option, but you _can_ teach your children values & morals and lay a foundation that they can stand firmly upon. i believe my influence is greater than that of peers. i really believe you can expose your kids to things that grate your nerves and use it as a training ground to build character.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

We have kids that we have said, "NO WAY!" My son was mad about one until 2 weeks ago......this kid is sitting in juvi. We have had a lot, I mean A LOT, of conversations about this. All our kids have inquired about how we knew that this boy was a bad/wrong influance. How it is different from one of their goofiest, but "oddball", friends.

We have other kids we advoid. Not the first kids we ask to join along but don't forget about.

But we don't isolate them from other kids. I think that is completely wrong. We just never made peer groups the main focus. It is good to play with other kids, even a few hours a day but not in the current day care/preschool environment were you don't have a good adult/child ratio.


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I think you need to change your social circle. I agree, there are a lot of kids out there who have no guidelines and are little terrors. I didn't spend time with them when I was a kid, and I wouldn't let my kids spend time with them now. But my kids have spent plenty of time with other kids.

When my oldest was little, we participated in a playgroup. All the moms were there and we all supervised and helped the kids learn how to get along. Now we do more playdates with certain kids since our playgroup kind of dissolved (everyone's kids were starting school and everyone was too busy).

Siblings certainly teach social interaction. My boys play with each other all the time. They get on each other's nerves from time to time, but I'm there to help them handle it and work it out. When they play with other kids, I am very impressed with the way they treat other people. I am sure it has a lot to do with the practice and guidance they've received while playing with each other.

There are neighbor kids that used to come down and want to play with my boys that I allowed for a time and then said no to. The little girl was extremely bossy, and it seemed all those kids wanted to do was come into my house and watch tv. I don't allow my children to watch tv, and I don't want them coming over just to watch tv. I couldn't trust them to obey me when I was not in the room, so they are not allowed to come play any more. I also didn't like how the little girl bossed her little brother and my son around. No one has to play with someone like that, and you don't always realize at first how miserable it is.


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, I plan to.

Keeping my kids away from others peoples kids for as long as possible is on my rule list. And that doesn't mean that they will never be around other kids.

There's another book that promotes this based upon the author wanting to instill certain values in her children. She seems to have done a fine job.

I don't expect to get much support on that and really I don't need it.


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## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
You do realize that what you are describing is age appropriate until about 6yo? Yes? Kids aren't born with filters.

In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.


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## KimL (May 16, 2009)

so, you want her just to imitate YOU?

Not to be snarky but really... kids need kids. It helps them learn new things, accept different types of people and really figure themselves out. Sure, they copy others, that's so natural. If she's just with you then all she has to copy is you and that just doesn't make any sense!


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.

That would not have been acceptable in my house growing up either. I wish I would have said that at the dinner table...yeah right. And responses that think it's normal only helps to further why I feel the way I do.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SagMom* 
As far as parents doing nothing: When I've felt the need to talk with one of my kids about something I don't do it in front of an audience--I'd speak with them later, in private about it, or, if a matter of urgency, I'd whisper to them or take them aside. It's possible that the parents ARE addressing these things, just not in front of you. Of course, it's also possible that they're NOT addressing them--I'm just saying it's hard to know.

There are two elements to address in this scenario. I think that parents can handle the parenting part however they want. I would expect however that the parents would handle the manners/relationship part with me/my family immediately. I think it is important to model social graces and to correct/guide children so they learn to behave appropriately and I personally think that while you can reinforce that concept later, addressing it immediately in some way is important.


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## zjande (Nov 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
Oh yes, I'm serious. In general I don't like other kids, only my own. There are a few exceptions, but the children around us are not disciplined/parented and are left to do as they please without having rules enforced. I find them to be little monsters. Sorry if that's rough...it's true. Kids need some boundaries to learn and grow, and these kids don't have it. I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.

Maybe I'm just living in the wrong place. This kind of behavior would never have been tolerated a few generations ago...

Yes, I agree entirely (although I really do enjoy some other kids). As I said, I fully realize & expect kids to be kids & say disrespectful things at times. The thing that makes me angry is when parents ignore the behavior! The incredibly rude boy at the strawberry patch that I mentioned in my post, his mom ignored him. I watched him say "hi, dirtbags!" to 2 women that were paying for their berries at the farm stand & his mother only said his name in an annoyed voice & then said "I'm sorry!" to the customers. That was the end of it.

If a child of ANY age made that comment at my house about their food being disgusting & their parent didn't immediately intervene with a sharp word, lecture, or punishment, I would be extremely offended & not want to have the child over again if I could help it. That is totally unacceptable behavior. And "me too" about never having been able to get away with that as a child! I wasn't even allowed to use the word "hate" for goodness sake! If one of my kids made such a comment they would be given a hearty lecture on gratitude & respect on the spot.

We are experiencing a generation of permissive, lazy parenting & many rude children that imitate the TV & their peers more than their families. It's frustrating.

OP, I hope we haven't gone too far OT. I wanted to mention as well that the #1 reason I chose to homeschool many years ago was for the social aspect. I was horrified by how I saw kids acting in PS & I wanted to shield my kids from that. That is still the first reason on my list of why we continue to homeschool.


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## ALittleBitCrunchy (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zjande* 
I wanted to mention as well that the #1 reason I chose to homeschool many years ago was for the social aspect. I was horrified by how I saw kids acting in PS & I wanted to shield my kids from that. That is still the first reason on my list of why we continue to homeschool.

Me, too.

I am not opposed to my children playing with other children, but they are monitored and expected to behave according to the way they have been taught to treat other people. Right now, mine are playing baseball. I see the kids on the team, we've been to a birthday party, I would be content to have most of them to my house to play and I would consider a few for visits to their house...but by and large, I look at some of the parent-approved behaviors and cringe inside. Taunting, teasing, talking about boy/girlfriends, being rude to adults, etc. I don't mind the silly antics and the goofball humor that is common in the 5-7 crowd...but I don't care for cruelty. And if that means that my child is only around certain kids, then so be it. There is a lifetime to learn behaviors and I'm willing to delay it until my kids are older and more self-aware. I homeschool because of socialization - I don't want it


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.

I said it was age appropriate, not that it was acceptable.

I do have to wonder about who you are surrounding yourself with. If your friends are showing such a lack of manners in your home, why are you friends with them?


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## briansmama (Oct 14, 2005)

I WISH I could keep my boys away from other kids, but my DH won't let me









Actually, I've hear a lot of mamas talk in this forum about how they minimize their children's exposure to other kids, and it really helped me. Someone suggested putting a STOP sign on your door during the day in the summer when the neighborhood kids are out all day but you want/need time with your children.

We live on a very kid-friendly street, and while it's great somtimes, it often looks like public-school recess out front. Not to knock ps, but I too read Hold on to Your Kids, and I do not want my dc to spend more time with their peers than their family.

Good luck!


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## jplain (Aug 17, 2003)

I don't necessarily limit contact with other kids, but I do supervise more than some parents might. I'm of the opinion that an attentive adult presence helps to counteract the "blind leading the blind" problem that Neufeld has described.

On the other hand, most of our friends are hs'ers, and we haven't yet encountered many behavior issues....


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## MPsSweetie (Jan 29, 2006)

I understand where you are coming from, but be careful on here! I've gotten jumped on before!

Also, if I can't keep my kids from witnessing horrible behavior in the first place, I use it as a tool to help them learn how NOT to act. "Do you see how that little boy is calling names? We DON'T do that in our family" ETc...


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.

I'm thinking that had a lot to do with spanking, but I could be wrong.


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## water (May 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.

But see, this is a PARENTING failure, not anything about the kid. My DD (4yo) has said pretty much that exact thing, at home, and so we have talked over and over about how you act if you don't like the food offered you, and she is improving now. It is a normal, but unacceptable behaviour, and it is the parents' job to teach the kid what is acceptable in various situations.

That said, there are kids in our hsing group we avoid, but only the ones who are violent and the parents look on and do nothing about it. I have confronted parents about violent behaviour too. In general though, that is why hsing is so great, because the parents are there to help guide the kids through the conflicts and different social situations that will occur on a playground.


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## mama-aya (Oct 5, 2003)

_But see, this is a PARENTING failure, not anything about the kid._

I agree. We keep our children from the offspring of people whose parenting we don't like. All kids act up and talk back and are annoying and awful sometimes, but I've found, over the years, that the kids whose parents aren't on the ball are just too much trouble for me- I don't feel okay letting my kids go to their house for play dates, which means they always have to be playing on my duty, and if they're not used to having rules or discipline at home they need constant close supervision at my house. When my kids play with kids who are used to limits and discipline they play better and need way less handling, so it's more fun and more independent for them, and more relaxing and much nicer for me, too.

I don't mind my kids being exposed to children with bad behaviour- I want them to not feel like they're landing on another planet as they get older and go places by themselves- but I also want those exposures to be outside of the security our home, to be limited in exposure time, and bracketed on either end by OUR influence. I want them to know not everyone is just like us, not everyone believes the same things we do, are acts the way we do, or treats others the way we do. I also want opportunities to talk about our family values and rules.

We have some kids at church and homeschool activities that I don't really want my kids spending a lot of time with. We decline playdates at houses, but I don't stop them from playing at church or community events, unless the play is too rough or escalating too wildly.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

it's very tempting until she's at an age when she can stand on her own two feet, understand what isn't right (behavior-wise), and follow her heart instead of just wanting to fit in.
The way that happens is by having consistant interactions with peers in a smaller group setting with parents around to step in and explain proper behavior when necessary.

Keeping her away from other kids altogether won't help teach good interaction. I'd recommend having playdates, park trips, etc and talking to get beforehand about how to behave, then interrupting the play if people are being unkind.

You can also get library books about manners and good behavior.

We have a large variety of neighborhood kids over here all the time. Their manners aren't what I would let my kids use and I am comfortable correcting their behavior when they're at my house. I've tried very hard to make our house "the place to be" so that I can keep an eye on everyone and not have to worry about what my kids are doing elsewhere.


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## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zjande* 

We are experiencing a generation of permissive, lazy parenting & many rude children that imitate the TV & their peers more than their families. It's frustrating.

Amen to that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hey Mama!* 
I'm thinking that had a lot to do with spanking, but I could be wrong.










This thought has crossed my mind, but if we agree to this, doesn't that mean that spanking actually does work? I feel like, from my childhood of spanking, it just made me retaliate and act worse (though maybe later, not at that same moment).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *water* 
But see, this is a PARENTING failure, not anything about the kid.

Agreed. So maybe my issue is that parents around me aren't parenting.

I will say it's not ALL children, it's just most children around me. I very much miss my AP group but unfortunately there's not one around here. I wish I could find parents who parent similarly, but I just haven't yet (in this area).


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
This thought has crossed my mind, but if we agree to this, doesn't that mean that spanking actually does work? I feel like, from my childhood of spanking, it just made me retaliate and act worse (though maybe later, not at that same moment).

I think it does cause immediate compliance if that is how you define "work". In the long run it breaks the trust between parent and child and teaches the child to comply to perceived authority, which is not always in their best interest as an adult.

As for keeping DD from other kids, heck no. We just discuss (ad nauseam) behaviors we see that don't work for us. Guiding a child is not an immediate gratification event, rather a long process.


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## Tangled Hill (Jun 6, 2008)

My son is older (11), and I don't keep him away from any children, anymore. He is an extremely empathetic kiddo, and we talk a lot about why friends (both children and adults) act in certain ways or say certain things. That said, he will not tolerate people treating him badly consistently. He will choose not to be around these people.

But, one of the reasons he's able to advocate for himself in this way is that I used to limit the people I surrounded him with. There are toxic people in the world - both adults and children. I don't bring toxic adults into my home. Why would I allow toxic children to stress us out or hurt us?

Yes, I sometimes kept him away from other children. There have been several children on our street that I did not feel comfortable allowing to play with my kiddo - kids who pulled my child in directions neither he nor I felt comfortable with. But, because he was such a social kiddo, and because our street has few kids his age, he was hard pressed to tell them he didn't want to play. So, I had to do it for him.

It caused some stress for a little while. He desperately wanted to play with these kids who called him names, tied him up, hit him with sticks and rocks.... But, it also gave us a chance to discuss why people act the way they do and how we expect to be treated. And, I believe that's why he's able to advocate for himself today - lots of discussions about empathy and making sure he was surrounded by people who treated him with respect and kindness.

We spend a lot of time with a group of homeschooled kids we've known for over four years. There are kids in this group I'm not overjoyed to see, but I don't prohibit my son from spending time with them. The neighborhood kids were an extreme case. These kids aren't. My son will play with them as long as he's enjoying himself, but if he feels like he's being bullied or taken advantage of, he will state his problem with the situation and walk away.







I can't even begin to tell you how proud I am of that. (I worried that, because he was going back to the abusive kids in the neighborhood again and again - before I put a stop to it - that he would allow himself to be subjected to that kind of treatment throughout his life.)

So, I will advocate for my child. And, on occasion, I will advocate for him against his wishes; I can see things in people and in situations that he can't yet see. Most of the time, however, I will simply be there to talk him through any problems he's having with people/relationships. I would never dream of keeping him away from all children or from all children I don't particularly like. It's through experiences with people of all sorts that he will develop the empathy to understand others and the strength to advocate for himself.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jplain* 
I don't necessarily limit contact with other kids, but I do supervise more than some parents might. I'm of the opinion that an attentive adult presence helps to counteract the "blind leading the blind" problem that Neufeld has described.

That's what I did, and it worked very well for us.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

We live in a neighborhood where it is basically impossible for us to restrict our kids from playing with neighbor kids, because they are literally in our front yard, whether we are out playing or not.

When DS1 was a couple years younger, he was not very good at distinguishing between behaviors that fit our values and those that don't. And he naturally wanted to play with the neighbor kids who were in his yard. So what we did then, was to have him play, but supervise closely, and limit the time. If their behavior was upsetting to him, we verbally pointed that out to all of the kids at our house. If the situation was too much for our son, we had him come in for a break. And we consistently discussed with him our thoughts on how the other kids behaved, and how people feel when they are treated certain ways. We also discussed what our standards are, with regards to playing in a way that is respectful to others' feelings, everyone's safety, and everyone's property. He has been learning that no matter how the other kids play, he is expected to meet our standards for behavior. With this group of neighbor kids, this has worked well. He has learned which behaviors it is not acceptable to us for him to adopt, and what we expect of him, regardless of how other kids are acting. He has also learned to accept our limits on play, so that having kids in our yard is not a constant disruption to our own family activities. Also, DH and I have been able to have some influence over how these kids play together. When we point out behavior that is not respectful, dangerous, etc, they listen to us. So while my preference would be to go live on a rural lot where we will not have kids in our yard and we can always pick and choose who our kids play with and when....really this has worked out well. Our son has learned to play with kids amongst various types of behavior and learned to discern what meets our standards of being respectful and safe and what doesn't.

As far as kids who aren't neighbors, when I have the choice of them playing together or not, if the way a child plays does not work well for both of our boys, resulting in a happy good time for all, then I don't go out of my way to set up play opportunities with that child. If that child is going to be at something we wanted to go to, I won't avoid going, but I may choose to limit the time we spend there, if being around that child is causing stress and upset.

I do feel that one of the benefits of homeschooling is that we can have more control over who our kids socialize with, and how often, and how long, and in what manner. If one of our sons starts spending time with a child whose behavior is really awful, who is either upsetting our kids, or influencing their behavior in a way we are really uncomfortable with, and the child is not respectful of our direction regarding the manner of play at our house, then we will restrict our kids' access that that child if we feel it's necessary.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tangled Hill* 
It caused some stress for a little while. He desperately wanted to play with these kids who called him names, tied him up, hit him with sticks and rocks....

this really sounds like major bullying imo. i certainly would step in and stop that from continuing as well. that's a terrible thing for your little boy to have endured.









if other kids are being big meanies to my children, then i definitely help navigate the situation. not to mention, my kids certainly would not be influenced by bullies to mimic that behavior, but rather it would make them feel upset and probably scared (as the OP stated her dd is being influenced).

i thought we were just talking about kids that are raised different than our comfort level & how we deal with that as it rubs off on our own children. _do we keep them from other children altogether? or do we allow exposure and help them learn from such situations?_ that's what i thought the OP was asking anyway. my dd is friends with one such girl. she is a little mouthy imo & i find she has much more freedom to watch and do things that i feel are inappropriate for a 7 year old. she also isn't a very fair friend imo. my dd and i have had to talk about why our family and rules are different than her's. we've also talked about when this little girl is unkind. it is always an awesome opportunity for us to learn and grow though. my dd likes this little girl a lot, but admittedly, she grates my nerves. i've found balance by keeping playdates at my home only, which allows for more supervision by me - but my dd still gets to enjoy her friendship. plus my dd has learned to be more assertive and can now set personal boundaries for herself. this friendship has been training ground for her to learn that


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## Tangled Hill (Jun 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
i thought we were just talking about kids that are raised different than our comfort level & how we deal with that as it rubs off on our own children. _do we keep them from other children altogether? or do we allow exposure and help them learn from such situations?_ that's what i thought the OP was asking anyway.

Absolutely. But, for us, the story I mentioned is a big part of why my son has the ability to choose the people he wants to allow into his life. Maybe I was a little unclear. I have a tendency to go off on wild tangents.









In this instance, cutting off contact with these kids made a huge difference for my little one. Well, that, and all the talking we did about it! He began to realize that he deserved better - that even though these were real, live kids on our doorstep ready to "play," it was better to turn them away than to let them in and end up in tears.

I have always allowed my son to socialize with whomever he likes - except in extreme situations like the aforementioned story. As long as the people he chooses to associate with aren't out to hurt him, he's free to make his own choices about his friends. And he's learned a lot from this. Kids are sometimes unkind, relationships are sometimes strained, etc. So, we spend lots of time time discussing what makes other people tick and talking about the dynamics of specific relationships. And now, he expects to be treated with respect and kindness. He won't stand for anything less.

I believe it's okay to limit or cut off kids' connections to other kids when the relationship is toxic. (I shudder to think what he would have learned about relationships had I not intervened when I did.) Otherwise, I think it's best to let them discover the differences between people on their own - with lots of parental input, of course. That's what's wonderful about homeschooling; parents are able to better monitor their children's social journeys and guide them toward social independence.

Boy, I'm having trouble being succinct tonight! My mind is just all over the place! I'm going to chalk it up to the heat.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i totally agree with you. gosh, when i read what other kids did to your little boy, it made me so upset for him. i have a 5 year old & i can't imagine other children harming him that way!! i might lose my gentle discipline approach & do some good ol' butt kicking for a day, lol.







just kidding of course (gotta disclose that, yk?). you did the right thing for sure. as for going on a tangent...lol...i have a cold and a fever right now...i'm high on cold medicine and writing all over these forums, lol. talk about a tangent!


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

We are careful about who we associate closely with, and we have rules in our home that don't get a pass when friends are over. But we don't keep our kids away from others. Just choose our associations wisely.

I can understand the worry. We have those rules and we avoid TV for our children's benefit, so it's difficult to figure out how much influence from other children we can safely let into their life.

OTOH, we have friends who are River Brethren (similar to Amish), and they know we let our kids watch videos, and go to a more liberal church, and they are still willing to let our children be friends and play together, so I feel like I need to show to others the graciousness that is shown to us.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

My kids were easily influenced as well. My DS not so much as my DD though. My DD is very easy to follow the crowd. As far as in our home school group, I let the kids make friends as they want. However, when we do things with kids that are from the other schools in the area I limit the time with them. We live in the country so it's hard for our kids to see other kids often anyway. My biggest concern are family kids.







My DD is best friends with her little cousin that will start public school next year and I fear she will be an influence on DD as they get older. Hopefully not though.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

So far I have never had to do this. Since I am almost always around issues just don't come up. I will do it when they are older, though. When they are teenagers and want to go out (to a movie, party or whatever) and I feel that the "friend" is not a good influence I will discourage it.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

No I can't imagine trying to keep my DS away from other kids in general. I can understand if you've got a troubling neighborhood kid situation going on and contact needs to be limited or stopped, but just keeping a child away from other children? That just seems bizarre to me. Very weird.

Like others have stated, I keep an eye on what's going on and will intervene when necessary.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Hey there, I'm not a homeschooler so I hope you don't mind me answering. I don't feel its an issue that only homeschool parents face.

We deal with this with our kids as well. We're kinda old fashioned in the way we parent, chores, lots of manners and respecting others is just expected in our house. There is only one other family in our neighborhood that parent this way. They are a large family and have very well behaved children. Even though there is quite an age gap between some of our kids they all play together all summer long when school is out. I really appreciate them having at least one set of friends nearby that I don't have to hover around. A HUGE portion of kids in our area are totally disrespectful. I'm talking to the point of when I told a group of teens to not fight and swear in front of my house, my window got broken one night. We've had to call the police numerous time of various teens for vandalism, drunken driving where one teen actually hit another teen behind our house etc. My neighbor's teen is a complete brat, and mom knows it.

(PS: Although I know for a fact that separately some of these teens are good kids. They give in to peer pressure. I Also know for a fact these same teens have no parental involvement at home. I'm neighborhood mom, the cranky lady on the street. The enforcer of rules. They don't like me when they are in a group but totally respect me when they are alone. Go figure. )

Anyways, back on topic. For the most part we just try to limit the kids they play with but still allow them some free choice on friends. Because of how they were raised they do a pretty darn good job picking friends. They gravitate themselves towards like-minded friends who are generally parented like them. But we've talked to our kids a lot about peer pressure.

Our exception is our youngest. She's been friends forever with a little girl that used to live near us. She's doesn't listen to her parents at all and is really disrespectful of them. Its totally because of how they parent. I am friends with mom, but not really close. After playing with her our DD used to get an attitude and get disrespectful as well. We really limit thier play. Fortunately DD is coming to an age where she is starting to see how this behavior is not ok and voicing it. This often leads to ending playdates pretty early. I overall think the exposure to this friend is good because we use it as a teaching tool with DD. When you act like this, this happens. Cause and effect. She's also starting to enforce her own rules with this friend and using her words to express when she doesn't like something. "I don't want us to play in my room because I don't want you to trash it, lets do XYZ instead."

We also have our kids in activities where there is a lot of parental involvement. We colunteer and coach sports and that is a really nice place for our kids to hang out with other like minded kids with lots of parent involvement. We also participate in YMCA programs and boyscouts (not getting into a boyscout debate). So looking for kids' playgroups or activities in your area might be a great place to start when looking for kids you approve of for your child to play with.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
No I can't imagine trying to keep my DS away from other kids in general. I can understand if you've got a troubling neighborhood kid situation going on and contact needs to be limited or stopped, but just keeping a child away from other children? That just seems bizarre to me. Very weird.

Like others have stated, I keep an eye on what's going on and will intervene when necessary.









:

OP - (said gently) you might have to work on finding a way to allow your DC to be social (but still emotionally safe) or you could have very lonely homeschoolers on your hands down the road. You also need to examine your dislike of other peoples children and of this generation, as it could send some fairly negative messages to your children.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umbrella* 
But no, I don't keep my kids from other kids, and think peer interactions are very important. And I can't help but admit that when I saw one woman be open about how she's glad to find a homeschool group so she can avoid Those Daycare Kids and their bad habits, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and didn't have me feeling particularly comfortable with her.

I agree with you on this. There are good kids and there are bad kids in any situation, including home schooled children. But when we home school I feel like I have more control over my children and who they interact with since I am the one that is the deciding factor on any activities or groups we get involved in.

If I sent my kids off to a school for 7 hours a day I wouldn't have any control and they might get to the point where they act like the other children. If they didn't act like the other kids, then they probably wouldn't be accepted and wouldn't make friends and that would make them lonely and hurt, which IMO would be much worse than having them at home and monitoring who they hang out with while H/Sing and being free to be who they really are from the inside instead of being a clone of other kids their age.









Plus, kids change a lot as they hit middle school and especially high school. I know I did. I was fine in elementary but me and my friends all changed as we got older. IMO thats when the worst part of peer pressure tends to come out.


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## GAjenn (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes, we selectively socialize our child and my brother's family of 4 homeschoolers do the same. There are a few kids at storey time that I already avoid and my DD is only 1 year old. My brother's kids think the "S word" = stupid and not shxt. Sheltered..yes. Smart, happy, loved, ...you bet!


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I haven't read all the replies.

Maybe I've been lucky, but my kids just really don't enjoy hanging around with jerks, and never have. I've never really noticed them emulating mean/rude behavior, either.

So, no....I don't keep my kids away from others, and didn't even when they were little. If they noticed that so-and-so is just not very nice, they chose to stay away from that person on their own. There have been a couple of times that they've elected to not attend certain homeschool socials because they knew so-and-so would be there, as well.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umbrella* 
And I can't help but admit that when I saw one woman be open about how she's glad to find a homeschool group so she can avoid Those Daycare Kids and their bad habits, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and didn't have me feeling particularly comfortable with her.

Not to mention that she's deluded.

Homeschooling doesn't necessarily produce kind, well-mannered children. I've met three homeschooled kids over the years that neither I nor my kids could stand being around.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
The way that happens is by having consistant interactions with peers in a smaller group setting with parents around to step in and explain proper behavior when necessary.

Keeping her away from other kids altogether won't help teach good interaction. I'd recommend having playdates, park trips, etc and talking to get beforehand about how to behave, then interrupting the play if people are being unkind.

You can also get library books about manners and good behavior.

We have a large variety of neighborhood kids over here all the time. Their manners aren't what I would let my kids use and I am comfortable correcting their behavior when they're at my house. I've tried very hard to make our house "the place to be" so that I can keep an eye on everyone and not have to worry about what my kids are doing elsewhere.

Yes, yes, yes to all of this! This is what I meant in an earlier post, and Pathui said it so clearly and concisely. I have found all of these things to work well for us.

OP, have you tried venturing out of your normal social circles to meet other children, in different groups, than you currently are in? I would give that a try before giving up on other children as playmates for yours entirely. It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with certain children, but that doesn't have to mean _all_ children are that way, YKWIM?


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## mary3mama (Apr 2, 2004)

Yes.

It's part of my 'job' and I do it well.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
Oh yes, I'm serious. In general I don't like other kids, only my own. There are a few exceptions, but the children around us are not disciplined/parented and are left to do as they please without having rules enforced. I find them to be little monsters. Sorry if that's rough...it's true. Kids need some boundaries to learn and grow, and these kids don't have it. I've had my friends and their children over for dinner and I'll make a really big meal and their kids will say loudly "THIS is DISGUSTING. I HATE this." To me that is unacceptable behavior, yet parents do nothing.

Maybe I'm just living in the wrong place. This kind of behavior would never have been tolerated a few generations ago...

Honestly, I think it has nothing to do with this generation, it has to do with whom you are friends with.







:


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
Honestly, I think it has nothing to do with this generation, it has to do with whom you are friends with.







:

I think it has a lot to do with a person's own attitude toward other children as well. If you don't like any kids other than your own and decide you just don't care for the whole generation of kids, I doubt you are going to find a lot to be pleased with.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

You know, if a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from black people because they're awful, it would be prejudice. If a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from Jews because they're nasty, that would be prejudice.

No matter how the reasons are dressed up, this conversation is all about prejudice. There's no justification for it, no reason to pretend it's okay. I do hope that those who ARE keeping their kids away from all others are putting away money for therapy later - dealing with such hate and disdain in their own family they will need it.
I am very upset to find this sort of attitude on a board that is about gentle, caring parenting. The two are not compatible in the least.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

:


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## ALittleBitCrunchy (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
You know, if a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from black people because they're awful, it would be prejudice. If a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from Jews because they're nasty, that would be prejudice.

No matter how the reasons are dressed up, this conversation is all about prejudice. There's no justification for it, no reason to pretend it's okay. I do hope that those who ARE keeping their kids away from all others are putting away money for therapy later - dealing with such hate and disdain in their own family they will need it.
I am very upset to find this sort of attitude on a board that is about gentle, caring parenting. The two are not compatible in the least.

I don't see how this is prejudice. I checked Merriam..

Quote:

(1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I am making a judgment based on what I see. I have sufficient knowledge, I have a rational reason for my decision, and I make this judgment at the time that it's warranted. If there is a child that is mean, cruel, obnoxious, rude, whatever...I am judging THAT CHILD based on SPECIFIC EVENTS/ SITUATIONS that I have witnessed or that my children tell me about, with their first-hand experience. People are judged based on how they present themselves - children included. I refuse to allow my children to be exposed to hate, anger, or behaviors that I feel are inappropriate for their age. It isn't prejudice. It's life. If I was rude, obnoxious and cruel and people didn't want to talk to me...that is perfectly within their rights. I wouldn't be prejudiced against...I would deserve to have negative judgments against me.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I don't keep my kids away from other kids or kids who are "bad influences" I don't see the point. I can't do it their entire lives. Instead, I work on giving them the tools to think for themselves and how to deal with people who are leading them to do the wrong thing. Our children are going to encounter "bad influences" as children, teens, adults and into old age. We can't shelter them forever.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

To me, it's not usually children that are inherently the problem. I think everyone has issues-- it's how they are ADDRESSED that I look at. If a child does something wrong (excludes children, calls people names, hits, etc.) and a parent is right there to address it then I think it's OK; we are all a work in progress. If children come to my house without their parents, then I think I have the right to handle discipline with them. This is how I feel with my children at others' homes (so obviously, I am very picky with who they are with alone). If the parents don't like that, then either they should come over w/their children or no more playdates.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
*In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that.* If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.


I don't think that's necessarily true. I was talking to a friend of the family who has been teaching for the past 60 years and is now a principal. He says that kids are kids. Their fashions have changed over the years, but they are still basically the same. People just idealize the good ole times.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ALittleBitCrunchy* 
I don't see how this is prejudice. I checked Merriam..

I am making a judgment based on what I see. I have sufficient knowledge, I have a rational reason for my decision, and I make this judgment at the time that it's warranted. If there is a child that is mean, cruel, obnoxious, rude, whatever...I am judging THAT CHILD based on SPECIFIC EVENTS/ SITUATIONS that I have witnessed or that my children tell me about, with their first-hand experience. People are judged based on how they present themselves - children included. I refuse to allow my children to be exposed to hate, anger, or behaviors that I feel are inappropriate for their age. It isn't prejudice. It's life. If I was rude, obnoxious and cruel and people didn't want to talk to me...that is perfectly within their rights. I wouldn't be prejudiced against...I would deserve to have negative judgments against me.

I think you misunderstood.....I'm not talking about keeping a child from another who is mean, but saying that ALL kids are rude and obnoxious (except the OP's, of course!). *That* is prejudice and should be addressed as such without watering it down. Saying there are 'a few exceptions but in general..' does not change the fact. There are not exceptions to the monstrosity of children. Children are not monsters because they are children.

This topic is making me very heated and I think I'd better bow out now while I still have a civil tongue than continue to shout how appalled I am.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

We have a pretty small social circle and so far we're fairly lucky that we live in a nice community with nice kids. There's always a small exception, of course, but generally people are pretty pleasant.

I know a mom who keeps her kids very close and essentially waits for families to prove their same-ness to her parenting ideals and philosophies before allowing much contact. It works out well for them, although it does come across as a little fear based-but that's not my buisness. We apparently passed the test because one of the children was allowed to come to our home for a party, unsupervised by the mom. She told me how lucky I was to be trusted enough to have this child in my home (school aged child). I found that to be off putting frankly.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
We have a pretty small social circle and so far we're fairly lucky that we live in a nice community with nice kids. There's always a small exception, of course, but generally people are pretty pleasant.

I know a mom who keeps her kids very close and essentially waits for families to prove their same-ness to her parenting ideals and philosophies before allowing much contact. It works out well for them, although it does come across as a little fear based-but that's not my buisness. We apparently passed the test because one of the children was allowed to come to our home for a party, unsupervised by the mom. She told me how lucky I was to be trusted enough to have this child in my home (school aged child). *I found that to be off putting frankly*.

Offputting to say it mildly!

I actually like my kids to come in contact with people with different parenting philosophies, different political philosophies, all kinds of differences. They know that there are more ways to look at things than the way their parents see it. I guess we would like them to choose their values mindfully, rather than simply take ours by default.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
She told me how lucky I was to be trusted enough to have this child in my home

yea, you really hit the jackpot, you lucky lady!!!







maybe your luck will continue to increase & you can have even more playdates!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 

I actually like my kids to come in contact with people with different parenting philosophies, different political philosophies, all kinds of differences. They know that there are more ways to look at things than the way their parents see it. I guess we would like them to choose their values mindfully, rather than simply take ours by default.

I don't mind those differences at all-- it's other issues that I worry about (DH says too much) when letting my children go to other people's homes.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
You know, if a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from black people because they're awful, it would be prejudice. If a person came on here and said they were keeping their kids away from Jews because they're nasty, that would be prejudice.

No matter how the reasons are dressed up, this conversation is all about prejudice. There's no justification for it, no reason to pretend it's okay. I do hope that those who ARE keeping their kids away from all others are putting away money for therapy later - dealing with such hate and disdain in their own family they will need it.
I am very upset to find this sort of attitude on a board that is about gentle, caring parenting. The two are not compatible in the least.

I can agree that if people are choosing to keep their kids away from _all_ other kids, or from kids who are part of certain groups (ie public schooled, daycare, etc), based _only_ on the other kids' membership of the groups, that is pre-judging the other kids, aka prejudice. However if a parent is choosing to limit her child's exposure to individual or a group of _specific_ kids (not just based on membership in a category) due to their behavior and its affect on her child/children, that is not pre-judging, because it is based on the other individual kids' actual behavior.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I don't mind those differences at all-- it's other issues that I worry about (DH says too much) when letting my children go to other people's homes.
I am very reluctant to send my children to other people's homes when I don't know the family well. There are people I've offended and times the kids have gotten mad at me, and I'm ok with that. I let ds1 play outside at most of our neighbor's houses, but he's only allowed in a few of them.


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## suziek (Jun 4, 2004)

We've lived abroad and traveled as a family unit, which has had the unintended but interesting result of making our family circle very tight, and peer influnce on the kids not overly strong.

However, we've been in one place for the last year. What really impresses me is that my three older children (5,7,9) choose really great kids to be friends with. Even the ruffian, somewhat neglected boy next door is (and my kids picked up on this before I did) a kind person and a grand companion who can play across the ages range (he's six). I like that in a kid!


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

I have a question to the OP, because I'm not sure I'm comrehending the extent of the situation here: You dislike children of this generation and call them monsters, yet your example of atrocious behaviour is poor table manners in a 5-6 year old? Is this the worst you've encountered?

Why would you think that your children, who spend the majority of their time with you anyway, and are presumably exposed to the standards of your family, would be negatively affected by a child with poor table manners? Why is that assumed that inappropriate behaviours would be found attractive and thus copied? In 2 years olds, maybe. But a 5 and 6 year old won't automatically copy a behaviour.


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## brooklyngirl (May 15, 2003)

I think it's the parents of "those kids" that I try to keep my kid's away from. I think the pendulum has swung away from "punishment parenting" to parent's becoming uncomfortable setting limits or boundaries.

I recall my friend and I went to a mom's meeting. I think up to that time we considered ourselves gentle in our parenting styles. My friend spent the entire time shielding her child from blows from other children. The parents did nothing. We left asking, "Why would it be acceptable for your child's right to express themselves be greater than my child's right to safety and freedom from bodily harm?"

There is age appropriate behavior and then there is outright disrespect. To have a child say something inappropriate at a dinner table will happen. It's the parent who has to step in and make it a teachable moment.

I have a close friend and her kid's are difficult. Our children spend very little time together. I don't think my kid's need to watch her kid's kick her and call her names.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I let my kids associate with other kids whose behavior I don't always like, and whose parents don't parent exactly the way I do. Sometimes this is because said parents are my friends. Examples: my best childhood friend, an athiest, is letting her DH raise their daughters in his church; as a result, they are very expressive of their religion, which is distinctly different from ours. Another example: a friend in the SCA who spanks (well, the dad does, the mom's not so thrilled about that form of discipline), and whose house I haven't been able to let DD go to because it's such a mess (like, borderline wondering if my friend is a hoarder or has other serious prob messy, with nasty roach infestation). Their kids are also heavily steeped in TV pop culture, manifesting by turns a Power Rangers and then a Bakugan obsession; I've tried to limit the media influence on DD's toys a bit more. I babysit the SCA friend's kids regularly, and they all play great together. I'm considering letting DD go visit at their house after they've moved, since they seem to be leaving the mess behind.

The neighborhood kids I have a bigger problem with; DD wants to go out and play with them, so I let her try, but the families closest to us have a combination of girls a few years older, and boys close to her age. The girls don't want to play with her much because they think she's too young, and will walk her home saying they have to go inside, then keep playing outside, which hurts DD's feelings (partly because she doesn't need to be walked home, and partly because they're clearly still playing). And the boys usually just don't want to play with her because she's a girl and physically smaller than them.

The kids in her homeschool enrichment group last year left me less than thrilled; at the end of the year, DD took the class picture while I was sleeping and scribbled out all the boys' pictures and circled the girls. I know part of this has to do with age-typical gender association, but part is also due to the teasing they did over her short haircut last year, of kids saying she looked like a boy. The irony there is that she herself still tries to categorize kids as boy/girl based on short/long hair. She wanted to dye her hair blue a few weeks ago, but wasn't entirely sure about it because she was afraid people would think she was a boy. I assured her it would wash out before Eagleridge started up in the fall (she knew SCA friend kids wouldn't tease her; her friend Thomas, for all that he's boy-pop-culture obsessed, usually dresses up in her pink princess dress when he comes over, lol), and I think it helped that when my sister came to get her last week to take her back to Texas for a visit, she had blue streaks in her hair.









To make a long story short, I do endeavor to ensure that adult family are DD's main role models, seconded by her 13 and 11 yo. stepbrothers (who for all that their mom lets them watch horror movies and the one is a bit too video-game obssessed for my taste, are young gentlemen and good role models for behavior and manners) and that her most-seen peers are friends' kids who, though their families may do things differently, are generally at least as well-behaved as DD.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ravin* 
And the boys usually just don't want to play with her because she's a girl and physically smaller than them.

Really? I honestly thought that stuff like this only happens on TV. We've lived in several different neighborhoods due to military transfers, and I've *never* seen boys and girls shun each other during play solely because of gender.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Really? I honestly thought that stuff like this only happens on TV. We've lived in several different neighborhoods due to military transfers, and I've *never* seen boys and girls shun each other during play solely because of gender.

i see it all of the time here. my kids play really awesome together, but even when my dd has friends over to play, the dynamic sometimes chages toward my son & i have to become much more present (it's like he's the "enemy" or something & although it starts off as a game...it usually becomes unfair play quickly). i usually play games with him alone, or i'll find activities everyone can enjoy while i oversee the project. i'm also part of a very large secular homeschool group & they have several gender specific playgroups. we can't attend any because i have a boy _and_ a girl. i've even asked if i could bring my daughter and was told no. the organizer is amazing & she took time to explain why they prefer it all boys...it actually made sense and i was fine with it, but it still stinks because i'd love to take my son to make friends.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Really? I honestly thought that stuff like this only happens on TV. We've lived in several different neighborhoods due to military transfers, and I've *never* seen boys and girls shun each other during play solely because of gender.

I would guess that it's less likely to happen in HS'ing groups, but I can tell you for certain that it does happen in PS. It happened when I was a child and going to school and playing in our neighborhood, and it happened to my ds before we began homeschooling. He was teased for playing with girls on the playground to the point that he didn't play with anyone - boys or girls.







s


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Homeschooling doesn't necessarily produce kind, well-mannered children. I've met three homeschooled kids over the years that neither I nor my kids could stand being around.

Oh yeah. I can say the same for "AP/crunchy" kids too. Sometimes the parents do the "right" things but the kids are still hard to be around.


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## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midnightwriter* 
I have a question to the OP, because I'm not sure I'm comrehending the extent of the situation here: You dislike children of this generation and call them monsters, yet your example of atrocious behaviour is poor table manners in a 5-6 year old? Is this the worst you've encountered?

Why would you think that your children, who spend the majority of their time with you anyway, and are presumably exposed to the standards of your family, would be negatively affected by a child with poor table manners? Why is that assumed that inappropriate behaviours would be found attractive and thus copied? In 2 years olds, maybe. But a 5 and 6 year old won't automatically copy a behaviour.

Not the worst, no, but it's a good example.

And maybe your child/ren are very different from mine, but my girl is very influenced by others and LOVES attention. Yes, she's quick to pick up the good bad and ugly behaviors of others.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Their kids are also heavily steeped in TV pop culture, manifesting by turns a Power Rangers and then a Bakugan obsession;
My non-"heavily steeped in TV pop culture" son loved Power Rangers when he was 7, and his friends (4 homeschooled brothers) are really into Bakugan right now. It's normal for children to go through phases where they're totally into one thing or another.

Ds' thing with Power Rangers was after seeing one commercial at Grandma's house while we were visiting. What eventually "cured" it was giving up and letting him watch the movies. Then he moved on.

Quote:

I've never seen boys and girls shun each other during play solely because of gender.
Honestly, I think that's a natural thing. I've seen kids of all ages (ok, not babies) do it during play. Homeschooled, public schooled and private schooled. As long as they're not being mean about it and everyone has someone to play with, I leave it alone.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
I would guess that it's less likely to happen in HS'ing groups, but I can tell you for certain that it does happen in PS.

I was referring to the actual neighborhoods we've lived in. None of our neighbors are homeschoolers, and never have been. And I've seen kids not wanting to play with other kids out of mere dislike for that particular kid, but not because of gender.

And I went to public school and don't recall gender bias, either. I mostly played with girls at recess, because it was the girls who were jumping rope and playing jacks and doing other things I liked to do. But there were girls playing kickball/dodgeball with boys, tag, etc.

Anyhoo...back to the subject at hand....


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## DesertMommy (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.

The kids probably were not invited to the dinner in the first place.







When my grandmother was parenting my mother, it was a very adult centered world. Kids had their own world, it didn't combine as it does now.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

You know, it's never occurred to me to intentionally keep my children away from other children. I mean, don't get me wrong-- I'm selective about the company we keep and if I think someone is a bad influence, I discourage the friendship or, at the very least, try to keep things at our house so I have some control over the situation. But I think it's a very important life skill to know how to get along with all kinds of people, not just the ones who think and act like we do. As a matter of fact, this was one of the reasons I signed my daughter up for the regular ballet class and not the homeschool one. I don't want her only hanging out with homeschoolers.









Raene, I didn't see how old your kids are, but how long do you plan on this working? Or do you live someplace where you're really isolated? My oldest is ten, and asks to go out and play with the neighborhood kids. I can't really see myself saying "No, I'm sorry, I don't like that little boy so you can't either." I mean, if the little boy tortured kitties or yelled cuss words at random passerbys I would have a reason, but I can't see justifying refusing to let him learn to negotiate his own friendships just because I didn't like children.

ETA: OK, you have a three-year-old and one on the way? Am I reading that correctly? Three-year-olds imitate everything. I think it's definitely a great goal to foster friendships with people who are worthy of imitation, but seriously, I would not get bent out of shape over my three imitating another three. I think a more important lifeskill is to help them learn to sift through what's worthy of imitation and what isn't. Just my two cents.


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## DesertMommy (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ALittleBitCrunchy* 
I don't see how this is prejudice. I checked Merriam..



Then call it ageism if you want a different word. I've been on the receiving end of ageism and it hurts. I was a slightly young parent (compared to the group I wanted to enter, which were the older parents with planned pregnancies, I was determined to learn from them) and people judged me early on until they got to know me and saw I was a loving capable parent. I had to prove myself... totally unfair. You are judging an entire age of humans. These are the people your child will work with, marry, and when its her choice socialize with.

You need to find a circle you are comfortable with and socialize your child. Your experience with today's children is not universal I assure you, I meet kids at our hs park day who are far better behaved then my ds all the time. And I really work on his attitude and behavior daily. I kind of hope those kids do rub off on him.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Moved to parenting, since this isn't really a homeschooling topic.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
Complaints about the general worthlessness and rudeness of youth have been on record since Ancient Greece. And the reason we don't have them from before that is that the records deteriorate.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but you are going to need to overcome your aversion to kids her age. Ideally, soon. My son is two, and while yes, he has picked up the occasional bit of bad behavior at daycare, he's also taken some bad behavior in. It's not like the devil-children at the DC corrupted my innocent angel. It's more like, they all got together and compared notes.

Anyone who has ever been lonely has some level of desire to fit in, so you're probably best off finding a group of parents you like and kids your own child's age who you can cope with.

I love this entire post so very, very much.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Honestly, I can see keeping either of my kids away from other children... Unless the other child poses a serious risk to the physical safety of my child, I would rather they not learn to shun those who are different in their opinions or ideas.

I also agree with those who have said thus far that judging all the children in this generation (save for those select few who get deemed "ok") is a form of prejudice. You are judging everyone in a group based on the actions of a few and labelling good kids as "monsters" before you even meet them. Yes there are kids out there who are down right nasty, and there are parents who do nothing. But by far, most kids and parents are decent human beings.

As for previous generations being better... I believe it was Socrates who said "Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

Every single generation is going to complain about the younger generation. It's inevitable. It doesn't make it true though.

Given the OP described an entire generation the same way, I feel I should point out that when we have a preconcieved notion of how a group of people behave or what they are capable or incapable of, we tend to ignore that which doesn't fit into out opinion and obsess over that which does.

How do we expect children to learn to "stand on their own two feet" with their peers, if they are never given the chance to practice?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
Maybe I'm just living in the wrong place. This kind of behavior would never have been tolerated a few generations ago...

I feel the same way, that my children do so many things that I just never would have been able to get away with, but part of the reason we couldn't get away with it is because we knew we would face serious punishment.

My daughter has told me a number of times that she hates my food and it's disgusting, and she has ended up in tears when we told her she is free not to eat food she finds disgusting, but I'm not going to make another dinner for her when she won't even try a single bite of it. She disliked some food a friend of mine made--it was tuna salad, but she had no mayonnaise so she used olive oil, and my daughter didn't like it at all and basically said that in front of my friend. I took her away and talked to her about how that was rude, it took her awhile to see it. But she thinks it is just being honest and people should understand that not everyone likes the same things. We ended up leaving the house for the play date because she was unhappy, not willing or maybe just not able to keep her emotions in check, and I didn't think it was fair to the hosts.

My personal view is that children feel free to say these things because they are safe to do it. I was not safe from bodily harm or censure if I were to say things like that, plus I wanted people to like me. I can get angry and speak sharply to my daughter, but things don't necessarily change at least not for a long time, it seems. It takes a long time for children to really realize that life is more than just what they see in their own little world.

I believe, and I know some will disagree, if a child that you've invited for dinner tells you that your food is disgusting, you should say something to the child about it. Maybe that you find these comments hurtful and you find it rude that they would say this to you. That might actually mean more coming from you than from their own parents, since you are the one who is being hurt by the comment.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

in 25 years our kids will be complaining about how bad their kids generation is.

It's the circle of life!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

No.

I'm something of a misanthrope but save drug trafficking and similar habits, my kid can pick her own friends. They are her friends- I don't have to like them!









Quote:

Originally Posted by Raene View Post

Quote:

In our grandparents generation kids would have NEVER behaved like that. If parents find it unacceptable, children learn...but because parents seem to do nothing, the kids continue.
The kids probably were not invited to the dinner in the first place. When my grandmother was parenting my mother, it was a very adult centered world. Kids had their own world, it didn't combine as it does now.
Or, the kid said that, got hit, and shut up to finish the dinner in misery. I hate how when kids misbehave and are punished, it is somehow better than when they misbehave and are explained how to do it better. The behavior is the same!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
No.

I'm something of a misanthrope but save drug trafficking and similar habits, my kid can pick her own friends. They are her friends- I don't have to like them!









Or, the kid said that, got hit, and shut up to finish the dinner in misery. I hate how when kids misbehave and are punished, it is somehow better than when they misbehave and are explained how to do it better. The behavior is the same!

Or the kid that said that was removed from the table and spent the rest of the night in their room, not getting another meal until breakfast.

I'd conform pretty quickly if I knew I would be hit and starved for trying to make myself heard and not just seen.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMonica* 
Moved to parenting, since this isn't really a homeschooling topic.

Thank you!!!


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Or the kid that said that was removed from the table and spent the rest of the night in their room, not getting another meal until breakfast.

I'd conform pretty quickly if I knew I would be hit and starved for trying to make myself heard and not just seen.

Yup. Most people I speak to were like me -- well behaved because the consequences sucked.

Aside from bullying or safety issues, I feel it is my job to work hard to instill our families values and morals and talk to ds about other behavior as much as possible so he is ready to deal with the world when he is out in it.

And frankly, obnoxious kids/lack of discipline comes in all forms, not just from public school families. I, personally, have observed negative behavior on the playground with the homeschool families.

I certainly do no think this is the case with all homeschool situations, I would never generalize like that.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Honestly, I can see keeping either of my kids away from other children... Unless the other child poses a serious risk to the physical safety of my child, I would rather they not learn to shun those who are different in their opinions or ideas.

I also agree with those who have said thus far that judging all the children in this generation (save for those select few who get deemed "ok") is a form of prejudice. You are judging everyone in a group based on the actions of a few and labelling good kids as "monsters" before you even meet them. Yes there are kids out there who are down right nasty, and there are parents who do nothing. But by far, most kids and parents are decent human beings.

As for previous generations being better... I believe it was Socrates who said "*Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."*

Every single generation is going to complain about the younger generation. It's inevitable. It doesn't make it true though.

Given the OP described an entire generation the same way, I feel I should point out that when we have a preconcieved notion of how a group of people behave or what they are capable or incapable of, we tend to ignore that which doesn't fit into out opinion and obsess over that which does.

How do we expect children to learn to "stand on their own two feet" with their peers, if they are never given the chance to practice?









:


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Nope, because they need to learn and adapt and make choices, and they won't be living in my shadow. Yup, they pick up things and yup, it's unavoidable. It's all part of growing.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
I just picked up a copy of "Hold on to Your Kids" and the author goes into detail about what I'm feeling...that kids these days aren't as well-mannered as previous generations. His theory is that children follow their peers instead of adults and therefore don't learn to listen to adults. This seems like it's really true of what I see going on. Kids believe other kids more than adults.

I've read this book. I never got the message "keep your kid away from kids". There is harm in either extreme.

Quote:

I don't really know what to do...I know it would be wrong to keep her completely from other kids, but it's very tempting until she's at an age when she can stand on her own two feet, understand what isn't right (behavior-wise), and follow her heart instead of just wanting to fit in.
You guide, teach, talk. You choose friends selectively. You trust your children to learn right from wrong in an imperfect world.

But, also, you realize that kids are kids, and your own children are not perfect. Your own children will have negative behaviors to share with others. Your own children will sometimes embarrass and frustrate you with their behavior. And that may help you have more patience for other people's children.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
My non-"heavily steeped in TV pop culture" son loved Power Rangers when he was 7, and his friends (4 homeschooled brothers) are really into Bakugan right now. It's normal for children to go through phases where they're totally into one thing or another.

we don't have cable & my ds is still in love with power rangers and bakugan, etc. he _loves_ to watch toy reviews on youtube...especially in chinese and german. i finally bought him some of the toys. he also takes baths and pretends the water is a portal to the universe, lol.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

No, though since my baby is very young (12 weeks today) I don't allow toddlers to grab at him or do anything that could harm him, obviously.


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## Raene (Jul 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 

ETA: OK, you have a three-year-old and one on the way? Am I reading that correctly? Three-year-olds imitate everything. I think it's definitely a great goal to foster friendships with people who are worthy of imitation, but seriously, I would not get bent out of shape over my three imitating another three. I think a more important lifeskill is to help them learn to sift through what's worthy of imitation and what isn't. Just my two cents.

No, she's 5 1/2. Still very into imitating though. Has trouble thinking for herself. That's what makes it challenging.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
No, she's 5 1/2. Still very into imitating though. Has trouble thinking for herself. That's what makes it challenging.

IMO, she won't learn how to think for herself by being isolated, because then she won't be presented with any situations in which it would be necessary.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

My parents actively discouraged friendships for me and my siblings. My mom 'doesn't like other people's kids' and both parents are very introverted. They don't have adult friends and never did.

We were not often allowed to have friends over for playdates. When we lived in a neighborhood with a lot of kids, they were not usually let into our house although we were allowed to play with them outside or in their houses. When I did make friends at school and church, I would be invited over or on an outing with the friend's family, and then not be able to reciprocate. Friendships petered out fairly quickly as you might imagine, and I was never able to get into a clique or have a wider circle of friends until I got to high school and made a giant fuss about it.

My parents moved us to a rural, isolated area when I was in junior high and it was awful. They're happy there as they never have to see anyone but themselves, but it was so lonely and isolating for me and my brothers. We all moved out of there as soon as we possibly could.

I would never do this to a child. You don't have to constantly fill your house with other people's little horrors but surely not EVERY kid you come across is a tv-saturated, kool-aid swilling monster?

Mine are still young so I can pick their friends for now, but in the future I don't think that all their sweetness and light will be completely obliterated by an afternoon with a child who likes barbies.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
You don't have to constantly fill your house with other people's little horrors but surely not EVERY kid you come across is a tv-saturated, kool-aid swilling monster?


I'm sure there are plenty that aren't but I couldn't imagine discouraging a friendship with an otherwise good kid just because he or she watches a lot of TV and drinks kool-aid (both of which I did as a kid, actually). People can have some weird standards


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Actually one of my great pleasures lately has been to watch my son learn to interact with all kinds of children and to start to make special friends.

Do I want my son to be pleasant and well mannered? Well yes, I guess, in a way I do. But *why* do I care? Well - of course - *so that when he is grown he will be able to make the friends and relationships that he wants to make.*

So for me, keeping him away from the very thing that good manners and an awareness of others is supposed to give you - friends and relationships beyond your blood relatives - simply doesn't compute.

I will also admit that my end goal is not to have an obedient, compliant adult but a thoughtful, loving, and resourceful adult. So really it's not a huge deal to me if he picks up (and discards) some childish bad habits along the way.

I guess also I just don't get the fear here. My son is almost 4, and he has occasionally picked up behaviour I didn't love, and we've worked on it together. I consider that a far more powerful experience than not ever starting it at all. I also see how connected he is to my husband and I and how strongly we influence him at this age. I can't imagine that a few friends are going to impact on that over the next - oh - 5-7 years.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
This thought has crossed my mind, but if we agree to this, doesn't that mean that spanking actually does work? I feel like, from my childhood of spanking, it just made me retaliate and act worse (though maybe later, not at that same moment).

Spanking does work for a lot of kids because it teaches fear. I've seen people smack their kids in front of me, and the child would stop the behavior immediately. The long-term effects aren't the issue here; you're talking about very short-term behavioral correction.

We don't spank because we're morally opposed to hitting, not because we believe it's ineffective. I don't care if an indisputable study came out saying that spanking was the best form of discipline, I still wouldn't use it.

Also, it's important to note that for many in our grandparents' generation, especially middle and upper classes, children wouldn't have eaten at the table with their parents. They often ate in the kitchen or earlier than their parents, so even if you want to make a comparison (which is pretty weak on evidence anyway), you need to take into account the other social differences that affect the outcome.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Also, it's important to note that for many in our grandparents' generation, especially middle and upper classes, children wouldn't have eaten at the table with their parents. They often ate in the kitchen or earlier than their parents, so even if you want to make a comparison (which is pretty weak on evidence anyway), you need to take into account the other social differences that affect the outcome.

Oh yes definitely - when I used to go to my friends' houses for meals, we would be served a kids' meal at about 5 or 5:30, in the kitchen - usually hamburger based, or similar - basic, unfancy food.

When the adults had dinner it was usually at the kids' bedtime, in the dining room, with steak or something good that we weren't considered old enough to appreciate.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
I'm sure there are plenty that aren't but I couldn't imagine discouraging a friendship with an otherwise good kid just because he or she watches a lot of TV and drinks kool-aid (both of which I did as a kid, actually). People can have some weird standards









To clarify, my point was that I don't think it's fair to isolate your child because other parents do not have the same views that you do. I will limit my sarcasm in future.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
To clarify, my point was that I don't think it's fair to isolate your child because other parents do not have the same views that you do. I will limit my sarcasm in future.

You know, I started to edit my post earlier to say that I wasn't referring to you directly and that I knew you were trying to tell the OP that there are other kids out there, no need to condemn a whole generation (and perhaps koolaid was mentioned by others in the thread, I know TV was), but it just seemed clunky and I'd been neglecting the dinner I had cooking in the oven so I just left my post as it was.
Just wanted to let you know that I did realize my post might come across wrong, sorry I didn't have time to edit properly.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 
No, she's 5 1/2. Still very into imitating though. Has trouble thinking for herself. That's what makes it challenging.

Yeah, for some reason I thought it was 2007. Sorry about that.







But you know, 5's do that too sometimes. Kids in general do it. I think you will serve your children much better to help them cultivate friendships with children you can all enjoy rather than painting all kids with the "I don't like children" brush and keeping them away from other people. Just my opinion.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

There are some kids that we don't associate because their family values are so different from ours as to be offensive (and I'm talking serious stuff like racism, homophobia, anti-semitism).

There are lots of children that my kids play with that I find incredibly annoying but I don't keep my children from them.

I have my "house rules" which I enforce when any kids are in my home. To use the OP's example, a child who announced that he found my dinner DISGUSTING would be informed that we do not insult the cook when we have been invited to the table and that he can refrain from those comments or leave.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Heck yes I keep my daughter away from children I don't want her associating with. Do I keep her away from *all* children? No, of course not. There is a huge pool to pick from thankfully, as people are always having kids









I want to teach her when she is young that we don't choose to be in the company of people who are mean, or hurt her. We teach her that love is not hurt, and pain is not a loving action. If I condoned behavior toward our daughter that was disrespectful (more than developmentally appropriate isolated incidents that are dealt with gently but appropriately) then I would be teaching her it is okay to be friends with people who violated her space/body/things -- and I refuse to do that.

That having been said, I am not terribly rigid. I know 'kids will be kids' to a certain degree, so things like "this food is gross" for a 4 year old is similar to an adult saying "I don't prefer peas". They just have fewer filters. I wouldn't yank my kid from their presence forever over that, for example.

However, if someone is demeaning, physically or emotionally hurtful (again, more than the isolated few and far between incidents among small children) I will choose not to have dd in their presence and I will absolutely tell her (and their parents) why.

It is my job to model for her ways to respect herself and others and to protect her from situations where she is not being respected. There are more kids in the world, with parents who are trying to raise kind, compassionate, gentle, loving little people. You just have to find them.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Heck yes I keep my daughter away from children I don't want her associating with. Do I keep her away from *all* children? No, of course not. There is a huge pool to pick from thankfully, as people are always having kids









I want to teach her when she is young that we don't choose to be in the company of people who are mean, or hurt her. We teach her that love is not hurt, and pain is not a loving action. If I condoned behavior toward our daughter that was disrespectful (more than developmentally appropriate isolated incidents that are dealt with gently but appropriately) then I would be teaching her it is okay to be friends with people who violated her space/body/things -- and I refuse to do that.

That having been said, I am not terribly rigid. I know 'kids will be kids' to a certain degree, so things like "this food is gross" for a 4 year old is similar to an adult saying "I don't prefer peas". They just have fewer filters. I wouldn't yank my kid from their presence forever over that, for example.

However, if someone is demeaning, physically or emotionally hurtful (again, more than the isolated few and far between incidents among small children) I will choose not to have dd in their presence and I will absolutely tell her (and their parents) why.

It is my job to model for her ways to respect herself and others and to protect her from situations where she is not being respected. There are more kids in the world, with parents who are trying to raise kind, compassionate, gentle, loving little people. You just have to find them.

word.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

There are some kids that we don't associate because their family values are so different from ours as to be offensive (and I'm talking serious stuff like racism, homophobia, anti-semitism).
Yes, this!

On the other end of the spectrum, we choose to continue to live in a big city with a lot of diversity because we want DD to grow up knowing that there are kids who are different because of their ethnic, racial and religious backgrounds, but very much equals with valid opinions and viewpoints...and, despite their cultural differences, have values very similar to our own.

DH and I don't concern ourselves with issues like manners, respect of adults, etc., because those things are learned at home and if taught effectively and lovingly, go with the child as he/she enters the world. It all starts at home, in my opinion. Some kids might rebel or imitate their peers, yes, but I think that lessons learned at home follow you throughout your life. I remember when I was little, that I desperately wanted to be like other people, but my parents insisted that I be myself and to value certain things. When I matured, however, I didn't want so much to be like other people. There's gotta be some value in learning to think for yourself despite the odds.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
My parents moved us to a rural, isolated area when I was in junior high and it was awful. They're happy there as they never have to see anyone but themselves, but it was so lonely and isolating for me and my brothers. We all moved out of there as soon as we possibly could.


my childhood was not as extreme, but had some similar elements. we lived in a more isolated part of town where a car was required to get anywhere, and both my parents worked. Most afterschool activities required transportation that I did not have.

So school was the only place I had any socializing, but since most school social circles are partially built by outside school socializing, I was seriously hindered and basically ostracized for most of late elementary -> middle school.

At home, the only playmate I had was my brother, who is 4 years younger and very significantly different than me in interests and personality. My mom would arrange weekend playdates about once every two months or so, and that was IT.

I watched a lot of TV and read a lot of books. I was bored to tears most of the time.

For a highly social person, this set up is torture. I am pretty sure I was clinically depressed for most of my late childhood as a direct result of being so isolated and socially ostracized. It took me a very long time to learn the skills I missed from being part of peer-based social circles.

Restricting your kids to only certain ones you approve of? Sure, people have been doing that since the dawn of time. How restrictive you get and the criteria is personal preference and your values.

But restricting your kids to ALL kids as a rule, with occasional exceptions? Dangerous. Very very dangerous.

And your DD will misbehave at times. She may get the idea from another child or she may come up with it herself. But I get in your OP that you view most of her misbehavior as
"outside influences" - but that is not fair to her. She won't be perfect and needs to push boundaries by misbehaving now and again.


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## IntrovertExtrovert (Mar 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raene* 

I just picked up a copy of "Hold on to Your Kids" and the author goes into detail about what I'm feeling...that kids these days aren't as well-mannered as previous generations. His theory is that children follow their peers instead of adults and therefore don't learn to listen to adults. This seems like it's really true of what I see going on. Kids believe other kids more than adults.

As you yourself said, I mean this in the nicest possible way.







But honestly, every generation believes that the younger generation is less well-mannered than their own. As long as there have been essay writers, there have been essayists bemoaning the ill-mannered state of "today's" kids. I seem to remember reading an essay from Cicero in Latin class about the boorishness of the younger generation.









Other kids will always be both bad and good influences on your kid. Some kids at my son's preschool have introduced him to the idea of playing "bad guys," and that annoys me. But that also gives me a chance to talk to him about why I don't like playing "bad guys" or why my rules for roughhousing are no hitting, no real hurting, and when one person says stop we stop. In the same way, other kids at preschool have taught my son that it's not the end of the world when someone wants to do something other than roughhousing. Or they've taught him silly games that don't occur to me.

For me, I think that the overall benefits of being around other kids & parents are worth the occasional drawback of temporarily learning an undesirable behavior.

That said, there are individual kids that I limit my son's time with because the unpleasantness outweighs the fun/learning.

If I felt that _every_ child my kid met was an unmitigated "bad influence," I would first examine my own thinking and expectations of normal behavior for that age range, and then consider seeking out intentional communities that matched my views a little better.


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