# Warning: disturbing news story car crash



## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

http://www.kvue.com/news/local/stori...12f5a9221.html


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## CheapPearls (Aug 7, 2007)

How awful.


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## Eliseatthebeach (Sep 20, 2007)

That's why I am a crazy car seat safety mama!


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I think charges should be filed in this case. Riding around with three young children, two of which were not in carseats, is criminal for a reason: it's dangerous and just plain stupid.

What were they thinking?


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

OMG... an infant on your lap?! What is this, 1970? (Thats when my sister was born, and my mom says she mostly rode on her lap.) Come on now!!!!!


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## littlecityfarmer (Apr 27, 2004)

What a horrible story... Why in the world were those kids not in car seats? No excuse for that! I agree with the PP that charges should be filed, though the parents do have to live with the trauma for the rest of their lives...


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## Patchfire (Dec 11, 2001)

Stories like that are why I have called the police when I see an infant outside a seat.







Charges absolutely should be filed.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

How tragic, I can't even imagine riding around with my baby on my lap.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

How absolutely awful and sad.
Come on people. Thinking she should be charged! Two of her children have been killed. Of course she will never do that again. Losing a child is the worst consequence any mother could have for her actions. She needs compassion right now not judgement. I am sure she will never be the same again.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Those poor babies. My heart just breaks for them.

I do agree charges should be filed. She didn't accidentally leave them out of their car seats. She knowingly, intentionally put them in danger and now those babies are gone. While she will probably forever feel horrible for what she did, she still committed a crime and should face some form of legal punishment. It's not like she didn't mean to not put them in their car seats... had they been in there but she forgot to buckle them or something that would be different. I'm just finding it hard to dredge up much sympathy for her when I'm sure she knew the risks of not using a car seat. I feel so badly for those babies.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Yes, charges should be probably be filed. If she pleads guilty and shows remorse, she won't have a long sentence and can be paroled early.

And the fact is, for a lot of people, the risk of going to prison is much more concrete than the risk of losing your children... so it will stick in the minds of others much more forcefully that THEY are responsible, morally and legally, for keeping their own children safe in the car.


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## tapmilkmom (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
How absolutely awful and sad.
Come on people. Thinking she should be charged! Two of her children have been killed. Of course she will never do that again. Losing a child is the worst consequence any mother could have for her actions. She needs compassion right now not judgement. I am sure she will never be the same again.

While I get where you are coming from, DA's don't usually take into account whether or not the defendant "feels bad about it". The fact that we may think that she "won't do it again" is a moot point. She had an older child in a carseat, but clearly showed neglect by not having the younger and more vulnerable children restrained. I think an arrest is in order.


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
How absolutely awful and sad.
Come on people. Thinking she should be charged! Two of her children have been killed. Of course she will never do that again. Losing a child is the worst consequence any mother could have for her actions. She needs compassion right now not judgement. I am sure she will never be the same again.


Ita where is the compassion?


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

How irresponsible and sad


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I am not excusing the mother's choice to not have seats...but if i'm reading the article correctly, it sounds like they didnt have enough room for everyone in the car, like maybe they were giving a ride to some people. There was a 5 day old infant, a one yr old (restrained), a two year old, a 14 yr old, and two adult women. And it wasnt a minivan. There was no other way to fit all those people in the car, without having someone holding babies on laps.

Personally, i wouldnt have driven if i didnt have seat space for my kids. And since the mother (if i read correctly, would have to go back to check) was the one driving, she really didnt have an excuse (not sure if all the kids were hers? Seems strange to buckle up the one yr old but not the others??)...sounds like the adults were buckled, at least the 14 yr old was.

So sad.

Katherine


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

How awful. I know that stretch of Interstate, and cannot imagine driving it with my children unrestrained - especially in the middle of the night!







There are ALWAYS other ways.

I am curious what will be done in terms of charges. Children are required to be restrained in Texas, so certainly the little ones being out of seats were in violation of the law. There is (or was - one can hope it's gone) a caveat in Texas about the number of seatbelts. If you have more people than belts, then it is permissible to have someone without a belt. It's a sickening loophole, but also not one most people are likely to actually know about... I doubt someone who piles 8 people in a car (I've seen it done) does so because they knew the seatbelt laws go out the window. I doubt that cancels out the child restraint portion, though.

Hug your babies, and keep them safe!


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## Sasha_L (Sep 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
How absolutely awful and sad.
Come on people. Thinking she should be charged! Two of her children have been killed. Of course she will never do that again. Losing a child is the worst consequence any mother could have for her actions. She needs compassion right now not judgement. I am sure she will never be the same again.


Are you kidding me?? They make safety seats for a reason. HELLO!!?? SHE made the choice to drive around with more passengers than seat belts and SHE made the choice to keep her children unsafe out of car seats...SHE took their lives and now SHE can deal with the consequenses. That is horrible. People know better these days. Those poor children. SHE doesn't deserve compassion...her KIDS do!!!


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## MrsAprilMay (Jul 7, 2007)

How horribly sad. I'm sure that whether they file charges or not, the parents will have to live with it for the rest of their lives.


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
How absolutely awful and sad.
Come on people. Thinking she should be charged! Two of her children have been killed. Of course she will never do that again. Losing a child is the worst consequence any mother could have for her actions. She needs compassion right now not judgement. I am sure she will never be the same again.

Imagine this scenario

The mother got pset, shook the baby and it died from shaken Baby syndrome. She didn't mean to get to angry that she would kill the child, there is education everywhere about not shaking a baby (just like there is about car seats) but she did it anyway.

Should that mother not be charged with abuse because the death of the baby was punishment enough and she should have learned her lesson? or would you want to see her chagred with child abuse that lead to death?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

That is sickening. The worst part is the fact that, if the children had been properly restrained as per the law, they more than likely would have walked away. The point is, the mother broke the law and as a result children died. IMO, that is the definition of the word "criminal".


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Stories like this make me so sad and so unbelievably angry. I hope charges are laid and that mother goes to jail. I'm sure she feels awful but she committed a crime and 2 babies died, I can't think of any scenario in which that shouldn't be punished.


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## TefferTWH (May 13, 2008)

I seriously think there should be a national law that says that cops can pull over unrestrained children and immediately cut up the lisence of the driver. It's negligence bordering on abuse to drive with an unrestrained child.


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## Annie44 (Oct 19, 2008)

Uggh this makes me sick.. This is required in Texas law and knowing how things are here she will be charged. She SHOULD be charged. If we felt bad for ALL the criminals they would be out of prison and committing more murders, rapes, child abuse. Honestly that is the most INSANE thought... My mouth is hanging open. She should go to jail... Its not like she didn't know any better. She knew because she had one child in a seat. She obviously wasn't thinking about her children in this situation. How selfish!


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## Sasha_L (Sep 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annie44* 
uggh this makes me sick.. This is required in texas law and knowing how things are here she will be charged. She should be charged. If we felt bad for all the criminals they would be out of prison and committing more murders, rapes, child abuse. Honestly that is the most insane thought... My mouth is hanging open. She should go to jail... Its not like she didn't know any better. She knew because she had one child in a seat. She obviously wasn't thinking about her children in this situation. How selfish!

i agree!!!!


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

I'm sorry - I am missing why I should have compassion for a mother who intentionally left 2 children unrestrained in an over-croweded vehicle.

I have compassion for the children who died as a direct result of her recklessness and negligence.

I have compassion for the two children who survived the crash, but have had to witness the death of the others.

I do NOT have compassion for a person who places a child directly in danger.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Well I am glad you guys have it figured out in such black and white terms. Of course a mother who who negligently lovingly holds her newborn on her lap (probably no realizing the danger) instead of a car seat is to be compared to thieves and rapists.
Sure it is horrible for the children but it is also horrible for the mother. I agree people who drive with their children unrestrained should be fined or lose their liscence. But this mother has received the ultimate, most awful punishment any mother can ever receive. Two of her children were killed because of her actions. Can you imagine if you made a stupid mistake (which is what she did) if you lost YOUR child? She has been punished enough so now she needs compassion and mercy.
Send her to prison? Charge her? NO! Do we not have enough legalism and judgment in this world already that we feel the need to do that to a fellow mother who lost two children because of a bad choice?
I say all this over a sad heart at such thoughts not out of judgment.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Well I am glad you guys have it figured out in such black and white terms. Of course a mother who who negligently lovingly holds her newborn on her lap (probably no realizing the danger) instead of a car seat is to be compared to thieves and rapists.
Sure it is horrible for the children but it is also horrible for the mother. I agree people who drive with their children unrestrained should be fined or lose their liscence. But this mother has received the ultimate, most awful punishment any mother can ever receive. Two of her children were killed because of her actions. Can you imagine if you made a stupid mistake (which is what she did) if you lost YOUR child? She has been punished enough so now she needs compassion and mercy.
Send her to prison? Charge her? NO! Do we not have enough legalism and judgment in this world already that we feel the need to do that to a fellow mother who lost two children because of a bad choice?
I say all this over a sad heart at such thoughts not out of judgment.









: my mouth dropped open at folk honestly wanting her to be jailed - has she not suffered? She has to live every day with the knowledge that she stupidly took a risk that ultimately killed her children, it sounds as if they were all together, it was late at night and didn't want to leave someone standing somewhere alone - a dilemma - what to do? - so they all travelled together rather than taking a taxi or doubling the journey etc but didn't buckle up the kids - the shortest journeys kill the most, my heart goes out to this mother who will regret every moment of her life one very stupid decision.


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## Sasha_L (Sep 1, 2008)

"Probably not realizing the danger"??? WHAT?? Right, because you wouldn't realize the danger in that at all. Seriously, come on!! Yes, she has to live with the loss of her children and her stupidity for the rest of her life and that is awful, but it was a decision SHE made. Don't tell me that she didn't know what could happen to her children if she were to get into an accident.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Well I am glad you guys have it figured out in such black and white terms. Of course a mother who who negligently lovingly holds her newborn on her lap (probably no realizing the danger)

The fact that *one* small child was in a carseat implies that she did have some inkling of the danger. And of course, in the aftermath of the crash, there's no way of determining the emotional state of the mom holding the child on her lap.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Sure it is horrible for the children but it is also horrible for the mother. I agree people who drive with their children unrestrained should be fined or lose their liscence. But this mother has received the ultimate, most awful punishment any mother can ever receive. Two of her children were killed because of her actions.

I know it's hard to imagine... but for some mothers, that's really NOT a terrible outcome.

Many mothers feel overburdened by their responsibilities toward their children, and resent their existence. Some of these mothers do things more or less intentionally that puts their children in jeopardy, with a subconscious (or conscious) hope that they can be relieved of their burden. We don't know *this* woman, and can't make assumptions about how *she* determined that the risk was worth taking, but it's foolish to assume we know ANYTHING about why she did it or how she feels now. She can be charged, and probably should be, and if in fact she's distraught and grieving, that will be taken into account by the courts ("showing remorse" is a well-established rationale for leniency).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Can you imagine if you made a stupid mistake (which is what she did) if you lost YOUR child?

Yes, I can. That's what made my heart pound with fear the one or two times I failed to buckle my son in properly in his carseat. If he died, it would have been MY FAULT. Both morally, and legally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Send her to prison? Charge her? NO!

No, just leave her in charge of the children who lived through this. Because we can safely assume she learned her lesson? Uh, no, that's NOT a safe assumption.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Do we not have enough legalism and judgment in this world already that we feel the need to do that to a fellow mother who lost two children because of a bad choice?
I say all this over a sad heart at such thoughts not out of judgment.

Look, charging her doesn't mean she will be convicted. It means there will be a complete investigation, and 12 ordinary people (some of them probably her "fellow mothers" will hear her story and decide whether a crime was committed. And that process is probably necessary, since there's evidence she did "know better" (one child was in a carseat), and the fates of other children rest on her capacity to take responsibility for them.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

You know, there's more to this story than what we read in that article. I don't know what it is, but it's more complex, for sure. We don't even know whose child the one-year-old was.

I feel terribly for the children who died and the children who didn't die in the crash. I agree that the mother made a horrible mistake and was negligent in her decision making. But I feel sadness for her too. And I can't liken her to murderers and rapists and hope she goes to jail.


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## ricemom3 (Jan 29, 2008)

I feel bad for her, but she was negligent in allowing those children to ride without carseats. I work at a drive thru at a bank and I see it all the time. In fact, Friday a woman had four kids 3 to 7(maybe) in the back seat, 2 of them double buckled, and the passenger up front was holding a baby that's about 12 mos or so. This just is SOOOO offensive to me as a mother. I cannot understand why ppl do this. And, because I am at work, I am not allowed to say anything to them. I even asked if I could call the police after they leave, and was told no. Our local police station gives out free car seats even.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ricemom3* 
I feel bad for her, but she was negligent in allowing those children to ride without carseats. I work at a drive thru at a bank and I see it all the time. In fact, Friday a woman had four kids 3 to 7(maybe) in the back seat, 2 of them double buckled, and the passenger up front was holding a baby that's about 12 mos or so. This just is SOOOO offensive to me as a mother. I cannot understand why ppl do this. And, because I am at work, I am not allowed to say anything to them. I even asked if I could call the police after they leave, and was told no. Our local police station gives out free car seats even.

I would have called the police after they drove away and given the police the plate number.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I'm sort of torn on how I feel about this. On one hand we have specific laws and methods of doing things within our legal system, so I'm guessing we should follow the usual course. Do I think putting this woman in jail will do any good? No, other than it would prevent her from having more children and driving around in a car with them unrestrained. In general I do believe that there are people who for whatever reason are dangerous to society and we have to remove them from the main bulk of the population. You could argue that this woman has shown herself to be a danger to children, and should be kept away from other children and not given a driver's license, but I'm not sure prison is the best thing. I personally feel coupled with what she's already endured, an educational and public service type of deal would be better for her. And I don't think that would be too unusual, because these types of things have been used on certain others whose irresponsible vehicle use has resulted in the death of others. I don't know what is the most effective way of achieving what we want to achieve, which is compliance with safety regulations.

There was a case in my town a number of years back, where a family from Utah, I believe, was driving to California in a minivan for a family reunion. There were 3 adults and 5 children in a minivan, so probably not enough seatbelts for them all. No matter, no one was restrained at all when the car was hit head on by a drunken driver. The driver survived in relatively good condition, one child was in critical condition, and all the rest died. The newspaper kept reporting that no one was wearing seatbelts, but one of the children was an infant, and the rest were 3,4,5 and 7, I believe. I felt incredibly frustrated by this, and even remarked to a friend about how it was more than that they just weren't wearing seatbelts, it was that the kids weren't in car seats. My friend said that it wouldn't have mattered, given the nature of the crash. I did not believe this; I felt like they would have stood a much better chance had they been properly restrained, but the news paper didn't seem to address this.

After awhile, though, the paper ran some stories about improper carseat use and how you could get a carseat and have it checked for proper installation, some information about what that was, really, like with tether straps. And also, they did a story on certain minority groups who are statistically less likely to use carseats, and how there are educational and advocacy campaigns for carseat usage within those cultures.

As far as I know, the father who was driving the minivan was not charged.

I think attitudes about safety mechanisms including restraint systems have changed over the years, but we aren't completely to the point where everyone in our society regards them as mandatory. There are still a big number of people out there who aren't convinced that seat belts will keep them alive, or that cars aren't so inherently dangerous that you're just taking your chances anyway and car seats and seat belts don't really matter. I know I am from a generation where we didn't really use car seats or even seat belts during childhood. Now I'm to a point in my life where I evaluate a car for it's safety measures before I even buy it, but at one point in my life, airbags, anti-lock brakes, and even shoulder harnesses weren't available in the cars I drove.

I still think we need more education and advocacy. I think it's also hard because in the US we seem to rely on cars so much with the distances we have to travel; our public transportation system is lacking in most places. I think some people travel in less than ideal situations because they feel like they have no choice. I don't know what type of car there was in this situation, but there were 6 people in it. Two adults, a teen and 3 children, and at least 2 of them were restrained. If it was a 5 seatbelt car, there really wouldn't have been enough room for carseats for all, so she should have made some of them stay home, but if people are used to driving all over the place without a problem, they may figure the risk is very small and worth taking. My sister had 6 children in the 80's and 90's, and I drove them in less than ideal safety situations, things I wouldn't do today unless I felt like there was an absolute need to risk it. I don't think as a society we've quite reached the point where we are ready to imprison those who aren't using safety restraints, but maybe we are to the point where we will imprison those whose children die because of the negligence.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

I agree with Viola's very reasonable post. This is a sad, sad story.

I think sometimes we overestimate the education that people receive. They didn't have enough seats, maybe the mother or grandmother or aunt says, "You know, we *never* used carseats, you all turned out fine, this is all just a ploy by the car seat people to make money," etc. Maybe English isn't their first language, maybe they never finished high school, maybe they really *don't* know. Cars don't "feel" unsafe to me, or at least they didn't until I had my first car accident and realized the amazing force involved.

These people were driving around with 3 _babies_ at 4 am. Something else was going on. I think the mother *was* negligent, but it's not a black-and-white case to me.


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