# Have We Taken Safety Too Far???



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Interesting debate.....here are 2 momma's differing viewpoints.

http://www.brainchildmag.com/departm...tespring07.asp


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Yes, IMHO people are completely irrational about this. Like I said in another thread, I see moms following their 6 year olds around the playground saying "DON'T RUN! You might fall!" but they drive there, which is far riskier than falling on a padded playground.







: And what's so bad about falling, anyhow? Falls from heights can be dangerous, but just tripping is merely unpleasant most of the time.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

in general I say most parents do *NOT* play enough attention to saftey -- 10 year oldes allowed to run around the tot play area at the local mall -- jumping on things, over tots, climbing the outside of equipement; all when they are at least 5 years too big to be in the place at alll -- and the parents just sit there reading thepaper or talking on thephone and don't care that the kids are being a danger to themselves and others...............4 and 6 year olds riding biks areound the localk gas station, with no adult in sight, in and out around cars, no shoes, no helments, crossing streets without stopping......two little girls killed in my home town a few months ago riding biked to school at 6 alone, crossing a busy busy street not at a cross walk..........and the list of things i see DAILY goes on and on...........so no MOST people don't take safty tooo far, they don't even take it 1/2 far enough.

_can stafty be taken toooo far_ --- *YES* ---- i hate that jungle gyms are being remvoed from parks and so on -- let kids be kids......I *hate to see my kids punished because other parents won't parent* -- I play at the park with my son, i make sure he folows the rules and doens't over extend himself and if he gets in a situation he is not able to ahndle or get out of i am THERE to help so he doesn't get seriously hurt (he doesn't try to climbout of a tot swing alone or whatever)

................the parents NEED to get off their a%% and be there watching and interacting and intervening. safty (removing toys from the park ) can not and should not replace lazy parents who just need to parent. and saying that some pleole like me are too parnoid about safty aslo does not revolse bad parents who choose not to parent their kids.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I voted other because while I haven't noticed a lot of parents IRL who are doing anything that I consider to be overly safety conscious, I've heard about parents doing things that I would consider going too far- like not letting a child play in a sand box. I don't feel that the extremes on either side represent most parents though.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

yes I think it has been taken WAY too far.

I am always asking my husband to turn down the rhetoric. "If you do that you will fall", "if you continue you will end up in the ER", "if your drop that on the table it will crack". NONE of these things ever happen and I can see my son second guessing everything my husbands says because none of the "bad" things every happen. There are better way to protect them. I think children can and should make mistakes!

I totally disagree with this (bolded)statement:

Quote:

"Just because someones an idiot," one mother fumed, "doesn't mean the whole community should be punished."

I see her point and even feel her frustration, but the reality is, we're not all endowed with the same amount of common sense. *The reason we follow safety precautions is precisely because, as that mother put it, someones an idiot. This is what it means to belong to a community: You make personal compromises in order to reduce the chances that more reckless parents or more reckless children get seriously hurt.*
While I do believe it "takes a village" in many ways to raise a child I don't believe the world should be sterilized and bubble wrapped because "someone is an idiot".


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Yup, waaaaaaaay too many 'safety' worries. My dh had a little mini dirt bike at age 8. He did wear a helmet, but still, no one I know would let their 8yo have a dirt bike, mini or not. (We will) I used to go bikeriding with my MALE(!!!) best friend from age 10-16 (when I got a car) for hours. We crossed one major intersection, it was four lanes wide. No stop light, just wait for the cars to slow down and book it across the street. DH was allowed to take their canoe (they lived in the Keys for a time) into the ocean from about age 8, and the motor boat from about 14. I went to the lake about a mile from our house and spent hours there with some friends fishing and swimming. He and I both have wonderful memories from our childhood. I thnk the media plays such a big role in scaring parents. From kidnapping to drowning to accidents. I saw a show (Primetime?) that talked about the myths the media feeds us. One was about kidnapping. Something like 95% of all kidnapping happens within the family. Only 5% (I'm quoting, but it was something crazy like that) is a random stranger kidnapping. Yet one of our biggest fears is the scary guy in the white unmarked van who will offer our kids candy and steal them if we let them play alone in the yard. Another thing is the lack of neighbor relationships. We are very lucky to live in a cul de sac, where we know all of our neighbors really well. But most people doont. So yes, if you aren't there, no on will watch out for your kids. I tend to trust people more than the average joe. I also make myself more trusting. I have no problem pushing a strangers child on the swing, or helping one tie their shoe. It's amazing that most parents wont even do that ,for fear that their intentions will be misunderstood. And about all the safety products, yeah, they are a bit over board. I'm very glad we have car seat laws, I believe they save lives. I dont however think that me leaning over the seat to nurse my screaming kid while dh is driving 30 miles an hour is dangerous. And the pool thing is out of control. We live in FL so lots of water. Wow, by the time the kids are ready to 'swim' (not really) they have UV shirts, goggles, sunscreen, arm floaties, life vest....the list goes on and on. WHy not just teach them how to be safe near water? We have fences and alarms and gates, yet hundreds of kids still drown. I agree that supervision and teaching the risks and how to avoid them works MUCH better than any safety product.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I like bike helmets, and car seats. But some of the other safety equipment has gone too far.

I saw a two year old riding a big wheel trike wearing a bike helmet, knee pads and elbow pads, while his father walked so close with his arms ready to catch the child. Just let the kid have fun! Even if he did fall, he wasn't going to need the knee and elbow pads.

Other good ideas...

1. getting rid of merrry go rounds at the park.
2. skate parks
3. buckles on shopping carts
4. sunscreen

(lots more, I'm sure)

But, some people way over do the safety issues. They over protect, and in my opinion, rob the kids of freedom to make small mistakes. Mistakes are how we learn.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

In a lot of ways I do think we are taking things WAY too far. Or at least to be a "good parent" we take things too far. While I am all for carseats, childproof medication bottles, and bike helmets, I do wonder what we are really doing when we restrict our kids from being kids in the name of "safety". Luckily, my local culture is not this way. Kids still run in packs....sometimes after dark. Introducing nuts before age 5 is OK and no one makes my kid stop climbing up the slide backwards. I do not feel evil if I allow my child to have a snack when no sink is available for washing up beforehand. Most of the overprotectiveness (my opinion only, of course) is seen online and specifically on MDC. Every time I see a thread where people do not let thier kids play outside alone until they are 16 or parents think tent camping is some sort of lethal risk, I think about turning in my AP card. IMO it is stifling for the kids and fear mongering for the adults....not healthy for anyone.


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## Petersmamma (Mar 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
in general I say most parents do *NOT* play enough attention to saftey -- 10 year oldes allowed to run around the tot play area at the local mall -- jumping on things, over tots, climbing the outside of equipement; all when they are at least 5 years too big to be in the place at alll -- and the parents just sit there reading thepaper or talking on thephone and don't care that the kids are being a danger to themselves and others...............4 and 6 year olds riding biks areound the localk gas station, with no adult in sight, in and out around cars, no shoes, no helments, crossing streets without stopping......two little girls killed in my home town a few months ago riding biked to school at 6 alone, crossing a busy busy street not at a cross walk..........and the list of things i see DAILY goes on and on...........so no MOST people don't take safty tooo far, they don't even take it 1/2 far enough.

_can stafty be taken toooo far_ --- *YES* ---- i hate that jungle gyms are being remvoed from parks and so on -- let kids be kids......I *hate to see my kids punished because other parents won't parent* -- I play at the park with my son, i make sure he folows the rules and doens't over extend himself and if he gets in a situation he is not able to ahndle or get out of i am THERE to help so he doesn't get seriously hurt (he doesn't try to climbout of a tot swing alone or whatever)

................the parents NEED to get off their a%% and be there watching and interacting and intervening. safty (removing toys from the park ) can not and should not replace lazy parents who just need to parent. and saying that some pleole like me are too parnoid about safty aslo does not revolse bad parents who choose not to parent their kids.


Holy cow. Have I been posting in my sleep? When did I write this?









Word for word--yo!

The only thing I would add to that is that some parents DO go too far with safety and HOVER, which annoys me. I mean, NO, you shouldn't let your child do something dangerous, but if dc never gets bumps and bruises, how will s/he learn limits?


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

I read only the "yes" position, and it seemed to me her argument was pretty weak. There are plenty of ways in which you can increase the safety of your children without impeding their independence or ability to explore and learn and do things for themselves. Putting on a helmet before a bike ride does not make the experience of a bike ride any less amazing, and it can make a signficant difference in the outcome of an accident. It is mind-boggling to me that someone would argue against this sort of basic protection, as the author seemed to do.

There's no doubt that I did some crazy stuff when I was little, and I survived. But there were also some accidents where I know -- and I knew at the time -- that I was pretty lucky. And probably, if my parents had been a little more tuned into thinking about safety as part of our everyday existence, those accidents would not have happened. Thinking about safety doesn't make you a "helicopter" parent or prevent your children from developing a sense of adventure, or from gaining self-confidence. I think, to the contrary, being injured in a "fun" activity for lack of basic safety precautions would do more harm to a child's self-confidence and independence than teaching the same child good safety habits.

And if anyone's wondering about my accidents: I once fell about 9 feet, landing on a concrete floor covered with nails and construction debris when I lost my grip on a rope my brother and I had been using to swing from "the addition" out to our driveway. Scrapes and bruises, but nothing more serious. Later, I ended up with some badly ripped snowpants after the CHAINSAW my Dad was using to saw up firewood slipped. I was straddling the logs stacked up in a sawhorse to hold them steady while Dad cut. In retrospect, that was madness -- complete and total idiocy -- and I am lucky to have both legs, firmly attached, still.

eta:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
While I do believe it "takes a village" in many ways to raise a child I don't believe the world should be sterilized and bubble wrapped because "someone is an idiot".

^--- well said.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
I think, to the contrary, being injured in a "fun" activity for lack of basic safety precautions would do more harm to a child's self-confidence and independence than teaching the same child good safety habits.

I don't know about that. DS1 is the most self-confident kid I've ever met. He broke his arm jumping off the couch at age three (he had his eyes closed). He broke a finger last year while play-fighting with a friend at school. Neither of those things has slowed him down even a little bit.

OTOH, I never hurt myself at all as a child (okay - not true - I did fall off the stairs once) and I have no confidence at all. People are all different and I do think an over-emphasis on safety can make some children very nervous. It has that effect on me - take flying. Flying doesn't bother me at all...until they start the safety demo, and force me to think about all the things that might go wrong. Then, I get a bit freaked out.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I've always been pretty firmly in the "yes" camp on this, though my grandmother thinks my car-seat fixation is _beyond_ neurotic.









Anyway, IMO, it's a function of people having fewer children, later in life. And having more cash to outlay on protective gear and fenced yards, etc. It's not that they're beyond neurotic, but I think the circumstances force a different societal outlook on children that I'm finding hard to accurately articulate here.

Suffice to say that a society made up of 35-year-old mothers of one or two children will view childhood safety risks in a different light than a society made up of 25-year-olds with three or four kids already.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think some things are overboard, and some people are not careful enough, so I voted "other."

I don't think there can ever be too many safety items (that people can choose whether or not to use) but too many safety regulations can be harmful.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

On the whole I do think that safety concerns can go way overboard. I DO think that there are common sense safety precautions that should be observed by everyone, such as bike helmets, crosswalks, don't talk to/be cautious of people you don't know, ext. I also think it's equally important to know how low the risks really are. I think that people are way too lawsuit happy, and the legal system allows this to go overboard, thus prompting companies and schools to institute ridiculous rules in the name of "safety", such as not running on the playground, no tag, not monkey bars, ext. That is the stuff that I think goes way over the top-but it does certainly play a role in creating the fear-based world the live in. I think that over all parents today are spoon-fed fear mongering tactics, and are constantly bombarded with "what could happen" if you let your child to this activity, ext, and honestly, some of them just take it because they feel the "experts" must really know what they are talking about. Those people, I think, must have forgotten what it means to be a child.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I definitely think we've taken it too far. One of the side effects of this, IME, is children who are less competent in the real world. If it's too dangerous to touch the stove or even use a microwave, how are kids going to learn to make a meal? Cars are way overused in this country because parents don't allow their older children - and teens, even - to walk home from school, or bike to soccer practice, or take the bus to a friend's house. By treating children as incompetents, we make them incompetent.

Sure safety is important, but I think most parents have a skewed idea about what's truly dangerous. The media heavily covers stories about children kidnapped from their own yards, but statistically speaking, they're more likely to be kidnapped by a family member - stranger kidnappings are quite rare. Playground accidents, like the one mentioned in the essay, are tragic, but the baby could have just as easily been injured if his mam fell while carrying him into the house, or something else that's seemingly safe.

If we really want to keep our children safe, we should teach them to trust their instincts, to disobey adults when something doesn't "feel right", and to always call for help when they need it, rather than telling themselves they're overreacting. MHO,

Dar


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
I read only the "yes" position, and it seemed to me her argument was pretty weak. There are plenty of ways in which you can increase the safety of your children without impeding their independence or ability to explore and learn and do things for themselves. Putting on a helmet before a bike ride does not make the experience of a bike ride any less amazing, and it can make a signficant difference in the outcome of an accident. It is mind-boggling to me that someone would argue against this sort of basic protection, as the author seemed to do.

I didn't see anywhere that she suggested that kids shouldn't wear helmets for bike rides. She said she didn't put a helmet on her dd for a _tricycle_ ride. I doubt I would, either. She's not going to be riding her trike in traffic, and if she tumbles, she's not going to fall far.

Bike helmets? I don't agree with legislation, but I think they're a good idea. If you're out riding a bike near cars, you're definitely at increased risk of a high-speed accident. That said, I fell off my bike - on the street - many, many times as a kid (well, preteen....I didn't learn to ride until I was 11) and never suffered anything more than scrapes. DS1 fell off his bike, wearing a helmet, and broke one of his permanent teeth. Head injuries are only one aspect of the risk, after all.

The "no" author's statement that her kids have only had about three skinned knees actually struck me as weird. She talked about her daredevil nephew...but the boy's still a daredevil, despite his bumps and bruises. I don't think there's much point in trying to control that.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I think people take things waaay too far.

I let my kids do and try wahtever, as long as they are not endangering someone else. So, if they want to try to climb up the slide, go for it, as long as no one's waiting or trying to come down.

If something looks like it might be too dangerous, then I spot them. But they can still try, most definitely.

As far as others doing harm to them -- my kids know they are to hit, scream, punch, kick and bite if anyone tries to pick them up, unless it's myself or Papa. Or unless I tell them it's okay for that particular person to pick them up. They also know they do NOT have to be nice to an adult or do anything anyone tells them to do.

Dd1 is very nice and respectful to people. She doesn't take the above as permission to be rude for no reason. Yet I KNOW she understands that adults don't hold sway over her just because they are adults.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine* 
I think people take things waaay too far.

I let my kids do and try wahtever, as long as they are not endangering someone else. So, if they want to try to climb up the slide, go for it, as long as no one's waiting or trying to come down.

If something looks like it might be too dangerous, then I spot them. But they can still try, most definitely.









:

I had someone ask me yesterday if I was as concerned about my DS (19mos) being on the slide, as she was.







I simply replied "No." He's fallen more times than I can count & I cannot prevent every little spill. I let him do what he feels safe doing. If he needs help he'll scream for me." Granted I'm usually a few steps away so if he needed me I'd know it.

One of my dearest friends DH is a nut case when it comes to safety IMO.Their poor kids will never know what it's like to jump on a bed or climb a tree


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

I agree with the "yes" position but I HATE the "i did X and I turned out fine"
argument. Mostly because the people who didn't turn out fine are probably dead and, therefore, not here to give testimony.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Other - I think safety is important, and necessary.

I just think that we often are solving the wrong problem.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

In general I think things are overdone, however I probably seem overprotective to most. My kid is extremely, extremely daredevil. If she'd just stick to normal, relatively safe dangerous things for a 2 yo, I wouldn't chase after her and stop her from doing stuff and say "you're going to get hurt! stop that!" anywhere near as often.









It's interesting that everyone seems in favor of bike helmets, but I've heard they increase the risk of getting in an accident, and of having a neck injury, more than they protect from a head injury. She wears one in the seat riding with DH, but I'm not so sure when she gets her first 2 wheeler she will.

I also think that molestation is a bigger fear than kidnapping. I think that's behind a lot of parents keeping kids close and not letting them go off and do things on their own. My hobby group just went through this and now kids under 12 have to be within sight or sound distance (ie, if you yell "hey junior!" they better be able to hear you) of parent/guardian/babysitter at events.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

my ds is the most fearless child i know -- barely walking at 15 months he tried -- repeatedly -- to throw himself over a 5 foot wall -- NO I DID NOT LET HIM ... my job as a parent for a child who doesn't understand gravity --

there is differnce between letting kids be kids -- and being too lazy to parent.

A


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I think it depends on the parent. Some are FAR too overprotective and their children will suffer because of it. On the other hand, some are FAR too laid back and have no idea where their kids are or what they are doing, and those kids are suffering from it as well.

I let Milo take risks. Well, as big of risks as a 14 month old can take. lol. I let him fall, I let him get bonks. I know that I'm not always going to be there to catch him and I want him to know he can fall and get back up. Or better yet, learn HOW to fall so it doesn't hurt! If he does get hurt (a little) I'm always here.

I think I'm about as middle ground as it comes. We do safety things (helmets, carseats, etc.) for the things it's important to do. I let him have a little room to breathe otherwise.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I mostly agree with Eighty and Dar here. Common sense, teaching kids to view situations and environments so they can decide what the safest course of action is, and etc is my goal.

I can't pretend that I don't worry. My oldest is about to turn 16, and I worry when is out walking. He's looking at getting a job this summer and he'll be mostly walking or biking to it. I worry. Dd (13.5) walked to meet up with a friend recently, and it was the farthest she'd ever walked alone. I worry. She's so....small. It seems like it would be so easy for someone to just pick her up and disappear. BUT, I try not to think that way. I try to teach them things I think are helpful and valuable instead.

I am not opposed to safety or safety items. Dd is out riding her bike as I type this and she's wearing a helmet. She wasn't forced to wear it. We've discussed the helmet issue many times, and I am sure we will again. I like for the kids to take my cell phone with them if they are going very far or for long. I wouldn't drive with an infant not in a carseat, etc.

My Dh's great neice is almost about to turn 12 years old. They came to visit last year and the girl was not allowed to pour her own drink, cut a piece of cake with a knife, walk around the block with two other girls her age, answer the phone, walk to the corner market a half a block away, or walk in the lawn barefoot. I'll admit it... I was weirded out by that stuff.







One area I get nervous about is when it comes to water and swimming, particularly in rivers and such. We had so many young people drown here last year...many in the same places we swim. Soo, I talked about that stuff quite a bit with the kids. We survived last summer and now we are almost in a new one.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

For carseat/car safety for children? No, not at ALL. I'm sure Amiee can attest. I just finished watching the news...a 7 y/o little boy was ejected out of his mothers car when his mom lost control of their car. He was NOT WEARING A SEAT BELT. Iowa law says only up to 6. How many 6 year olds you know that can wear an adult seat belt properly?

Seperate issue from playgrounds I guess. Playgrounds way way way too far, it's the parents job to watch their kids at the playground.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I do believe in bike helmets. Maybe not on a trike but on the road/sidewalk yes.

Seat belts, yes.

OTOH I'm pretty laissez-faire about things like tree-climbing, etc. I let the kids cook under controlled conditions.

I do worry about crossing the street but _I_ don't feel safe crossing the street the way people drive in my town.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I voted other.
I don't think it has gone too far, but I definitely believe that there can be too many safety regulations.

I think the bike helmets are good, and my DS started wearing a helmet as soon as he could ride his tricycle by himself.
I want him wearing a helmet when he is out riding around with his friends on 2 wheelers and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. By having him start wearing the helmet with his trike he has already learned that a helmet is part of riding a bike. I think it would be hard to suddenly try to get him wearing one when he is 7 since he has been riding a trike since he was barely 2.
He doesn't mind the helmet at all, he even forgets that he has it on and will be playing at the park with it still on. (I try to remind him to take it off)

So having a really little kid wearing a helmet doesn't mean the parent thinks the kid needs the helmet in that instance. I think most parents are just preparing their kids for the reality of riding a bike and having to wear a helmet. Where we live it is a law that kids have to wear a helmet.

And I am sure that bike helmets cause neck injuries the same way that a seatbelt can break your ribs...


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I didn't see anywhere that she suggested that kids shouldn't wear helmets for bike rides. She said she didn't put a helmet on her dd for a _tricycle_ ride. I doubt I would, either. She's not going to be riding her trike in traffic, and if she tumbles, she's not going to fall far.

Bike helmets? I don't agree with legislation, but I think they're a good idea. If you're out riding a bike near cars, you're definitely at increased risk of a high-speed accident. That said, I fell off my bike - on the street - many, many times as a kid (well, preteen....I didn't learn to ride until I was 11) and never suffered anything more than scrapes. DS1 fell off his bike, wearing a helmet, and broke one of his permanent teeth. Head injuries are only one aspect of the risk, after all.

The "no" author's statement that her kids have only had about three skinned knees actually struck me as weird. She talked about her daredevil nephew...but the boy's still a daredevil, despite his bumps and bruises. I don't think there's much point in trying to control that.

The illustration accompanying the articles were line drawings of kids with and without bike helmets.

The "yes" author also talked about wearing protective gear (helmet, knee pads) for riding a scooter in a very negative way. From what I've read, scooters turn out to be pretty darn dangerous in terms of injuries.

And re: your son's injuries -- those kinds of things fall into the "bummer, but call it a learning experience" category for me. There's no obvious safety precaution for jumping on or off the couch, ditto for play-fighting, and both kinds of things are perfectly normal kid activities. I thought the "yes" author was seriously talking about ignoring easy-to-undertake safety precautions for other normal kid activities - and that is just plain foolish, IMO.

Again, I didn't read the "no" author's article, so am not in a position to comment on it at all. But the "yes" person seemed over-the-top.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
The illustration accompanying the articles were line drawings of kids with and without bike helmets.

I saw the illustrations, but didn't pay much attention to them. I suspect they were done by a third party, and they were a simple way to illustrate the "sides".

Quote:

The "yes" author also talked about wearing protective gear (helmet, knee pads) for riding a scooter in a very negative way. From what I've read, scooters turn out to be pretty darn dangerous in terms of injuries.
I don't worry about scooters, either. DS1 wears a helmet when he rides his bike, but he never wore anything on his scooter. He actually did hurt his knee on his scooter, but pads wouldn't have helped - it wasn't an impact injury (well, not an impact on his knee - he landed badly doing some trick, and twisted it).

Quote:

And re: your son's injuries -- those kinds of things fall into the "bummer, but call it a learning experience" category for me. There's no obvious safety precaution for jumping on or off the couch, ditto for play-fighting, and both kinds of things are perfectly normal kid activities. I thought the "yes" author was seriously talking about ignoring easy-to-undertake safety precautions for other normal kid activities - and that is just plain foolish, IMO.

Again, I didn't read the "no" author's article, so am not in a position to comment on it at all. But the "yes" person seemed over-the-top.
Interesting difference in perceptions. I read your original post (was that you?) before I read the article and was expecting something much more extreme.


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## Throkmorton (Jun 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I didn't see anywhere that she suggested that kids shouldn't wear helmets for bike rides. She said she didn't put a helmet on her dd for a _tricycle_ ride. I doubt I would, either. She's not going to be riding her trike in traffic, and if she tumbles, she's not going to fall far.

The reason I make my DS wear a helmet while on his trike is a consistency issue. I doubt he can fall off a trike far enough to hurt himself (though, if you saw him ride you may disagree) but because I wanted the rule in place, so he didn't think twice about it when he got his bike.

I am on the "no, it doesn't go too far" side. Well that is how I voted anyways. Do some parents take it too far? Yes. Hovering over their kids, not letting them climb on the playground is overboard. My kids run amok. DD just turned 1 and she can climb equipment and go down slides on her own provided they aren't too tall and there are easy platforms to climb.

But for those people around me who say "well, I didn't have blah and I turned out fine!" I present my family. My little brother is legally blind because we were goofing off in our room as kids, I threw a toy and it hit the lightshade on the ceiling. The lightshade shattered and glass fell in his face. He had 3 surgeries and 89 stitches. When we moved into this house, the bedrooms had the same shades (the square glass ones from the 70's) First thing I did was replace the lights in the bedrooms with shatterproof ones. Good thing too, because i dropped the one in the Master and wow! it exploded in a million shards. Took me 3 weeks before I vacuumed it all up.

People thought my mom was nuts for putting my eldest brother in a car seat, but she was in an accident when he was 3 weeks old. The other driver wasn't wearing a seatbelt (hey, it was 1976) and was killed when he was ejected from the car. My brother slept through it.


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## faerierose (Jul 9, 2006)

I think safety has gone too far and I'm saddened that my kids cannot enjoy the adventures I had as a child only a few miles from where we are now. But society is forcing this, roads here don't have sidewalks or shoulders, area's that would have been left open before are now fensed off to keep kids out. People don't know each other around here anymore and open spaces are almost non-existent. Cars are always speeding down the road and people get angry when they need to stop to let kids cross the street (I live by an elementary school). It's just sad, I want to live in the country.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine* 
As far as others doing harm to them -- my kids know they are to hit, scream, punch, kick and bite if anyone tries to pick them up, unless it's myself or Papa. Or unless I tell them it's okay for that particular person to pick them up. They also know they do NOT have to be nice to an adult or do anything anyone tells them to do.

This reminded me of when I got lost at Disney Land when I was about 4-5. A man wanted to take me to the lost and found office and I wouldn't follow him so he picked me up, I screamed "your not my dad" over and over, hit, kicked, and bit him. A half dozen people followed him to the office to make sure that's where he was taking me, that poor man was black and blue. But my little sister who had been taught the same things I was taught just nicely went w/ the first stranger who offered to find her mommy when she got lost so I think things like that really depend on each child.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I used to think that bike helmets were definitely safer than bare head riding, but that accidents where they would be important to outcome were pretty rare.

Now I've read about bike helmets this afternoon & the research that has actually been done on them, and I'm thoroughly confused.

For example, this little news article sums up some of the con arguments re: helmets.

http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/texas.html


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
My Dh's great neice is almost about to turn 12 years old. They came to visit last year and the girl was not allowed to pour her own drink, cut a piece of cake with a knife, walk around the block with two other girls her age, answer the phone, walk to the corner market a half a block away, or walk in the lawn barefoot. I'll admit it... I was weirded out by that stuff.









That is really really bonkers, assuming she's a typical kid.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faerierose* 
This reminded me of when I got lost at Disney Land when I was about 4-5. A man wanted to take me to the lost and found office and I wouldn't follow him so he picked me up, I screamed "your not my dad" over and over, hit, kicked, and bit him. A half dozen people followed him to the office to make sure that's where he was taking me, that poor man was black and blue. But my little sister who had been taught the same things I was taught just nicely went w/ the first stranger who offered to find her mommy when she got lost so I think things like that really depend on each child.

Yes -- I've no idea if both my kids would act as you did. I can only hope. I guess there's no telling what they'd actually do if in that situation. Here's hoping I never have to find out.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
That is really really bonkers, assuming she's a typical kid.

Well, they say she has ADHD and ODD (I think that's the name?). She's been on two or three medications since she was about 7 or so. She's constantly grounded. She's pretty immature (socially, mentally), talks constantly, and the last time we saw her anyway she was still throwing pouty sobbing tantrums. I have plenty of thoughts about disorders, and I do believe that many children are really afflicted by them, but in this case I think she's afflicted by upbringing.

They say they treat her the way they do (controlled, punitive, etc) because of her behavior. I say (and no, it's not really my business lol) that _her behavior is that way because of how they treat her._ Maybe not all of it, but most of it. They still do the _"Eat two more bites of your hot dog and then you can be done/have more to drink/ a peice of pie."_ stuff with her. I can't stand that stuff on a kid of any age, but at 11? Seems so odd.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I didn't see anywhere that she suggested that kids shouldn't wear helmets for bike rides. She said she didn't put a helmet on her dd for a _tricycle_ ride. I doubt I would, either. She's not going to be riding her trike in traffic, and if she tumbles, she's not going to fall far.

I would strongly urge you to reconsider this. Last summer my (then) 3 year old sister fell off her bike (2 wheeler with training wheels). She was not near traffic so no fear of getting hit by a car. She was wearing a helmet. She was on a sidewalk riding with her dad in a small town with barely any traffic. This is what her helmet looked like after the fall. Thanfully she was wearing her helmet and was not hurt bad (scrapes and a black eye).


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

The things I loved most as a child (merry-go-rounds and dodge-ball) are now banned or in the process of being banned. Not only have people gone overboard on safety, they've gotten too sue-happy as well! I got totally bashed up as a kid! Bruises, scrapes, cuts, rashes everywhere, and I turned out fine! *twitch*


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

I said other. I think, in general, safety DEVISES have gone overboard. I also think, in general, parents aren't safe ENOUGH. I think helmets are great. Knee and elbow pads are ridiculous. Kids playing supervised is fine, even if it's not you supervising them (the example of kids playing in the cul-de-sac where everybody is looking out for everybody else's kids, fine; kids wandering off on their own, not). Parents who hover over their children drive me crazy, but so do the parents that are too busy talking on the cell phone to pay attention to their child. I supervise without interacting unless he wants or needs me. But I still supervise. I'll never forget when I was at Romp 'n Roll and there was this mom that was paranoid that her baby was going to fall off a mat that was 1" off the PADDED floor. I was like WTH is she thinking? But there was also a 3 year old girl running around with nobody watching her. She went over to a carseat and started rocking it - HARD. I about had a heart attack because I thought the baby was still in the seat, but it wasn't, thank goodness!

I don't "childproof" my house the way normal parents do. My child plays with random things that aren't technically "toys". But as long as they can't hurt him, I don't care. My MIL freaked out because he was playing with a comb.







: She's ALWAYS telling him that he can't have stuff and taking it away, even though I've told her that it's fine. We only own 1 baby gate, and that's to block off the laundry room where the cats' raw food and litter box are. Other than that, he's free to roam the house and he knows what he can and can't play with. If it's dangerous, he can't reach it anyway. People think I'm crazy for that and keep telling me I need to buy a play pen and more baby gates to keep him contained. Um, no thanks! We're happy the way we are!


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Other-

In terms of car safety, I don't think it can ever go too far.

But in terms of falls and "don't run" etc, yes. Kids NEED to be kids and get hurt some.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
I would strongly urge you to reconsider this. Last summer my (then) 3 year old sister fell off her bike (2 wheeler with training wheels). She was not near traffic so no fear of getting hit by a car. She was wearing a helmet. She was on a sidewalk riding with her dad in a small town with barely any traffic. This is what her helmet looked like after the fall. Thanfully she was wearing her helmet and was not hurt bad (scrapes and a black eye).

Dodge ball is being banned because it was and is a game that (*when compulosry*, like in Gym class) allows kids to torture kids who are less physically adept without recrimination. Pure and simple.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Dodge ball is being banned because it was and is a game that (*when compulosry*, like in Gym class) allows kids to torture kids who are less physically adept without recrimination. Pure and simple.

Hehe.... I have no problem with Dodge Ball being banned. I broke my wrist playing dodge ball in 5th grade


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Yes, as a whole, I think safety is taken too far. Or perhaps it's not an issue of "too far" but "in the wrong direction." I am not convinced that many of the "safer" modern ways are really all that much safer, and I think they give a false sense of security.

In many ways, I would be considered more overprotective than many of the mamas here, especially regarding things like kids going out alone, or germs. But my concern is not so much possibility of injury as possibility of being put in a negative situation. I don't hover, however.

So, in short, I think safety is important, but the current culture of safety is problematic.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
Yes, as a whole, I think safety is taken too far. Or perhaps it's not an issue of "too far" but "in the wrong direction." I am not convinced that many of the "safer" modern ways are really all that much safer, and I think they give a false sense of security.

In many ways, I would be considered more overprotective than many of the mamas here, especially regarding things like kids going out alone, or germs. But my concern is not so much possibility of injury as possibility of being put in a negative situation. I don't hover, however.

So, in short, I think safety is important, but the current culture of safety is problematic.


My thoughts exactly.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faerierose* 
I think safety has gone too far and I'm saddened that my kids cannot enjoy the adventures I had as a child only a few miles from where we are now. But society is forcing this, roads here don't have sidewalks or shoulders, area's that would have been left open before are now fensed off to keep kids out. People don't know each other around here anymore and open spaces are almost non-existent. Cars are always speeding down the road and people get angry when they need to stop to let kids cross the street (I live by an elementary school). It's just sad, I want to live in the country.
.

Yes. So many places are not pedestrian friendly at all and I think people drive a lot more than they used to.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm kinda in between I'm glad we are more aware of some things such as car seat laws more educated on helmet laws and protection. I remember thigns I surived as a Child but for the Grace of God







Things like my parents leaving me and my brother in cars for hours with the keys and my brother climbing in the dricer seat (he was older maybe ohh 7







: ) and pulling at every lever and button saying where should we go?..







Oh and at the ripe age of 8 he was mature and responsible enough to babysit me for hours while my parents went out heck I was payed as a sitter bu the time I was 10 and not like daytime groccery store run but 6plus hours at night and I walked home.







: Kool aid was the "nutrutious drink" and we cut seat belts out of cars







.
Today I in many ways am much more relaxed I allow my child to explore tree climbing get muddy eat worms and bugs play in the rain jump in gutter water. Shes not banned from helping me in the kitchen we laughed and took pictured when she discovered pillow surfing down the stairs and was there to hold her when hs discovered skating across a wet dining floor wasn't so much fun. I'm much more strict on other things. I wont let my 4 year old outside to just explore with the only rule be home before dark. I requie car seats and still have her 5 pt harnessed. I take her out of the car even if doing a "one-two minute" quick run with her in view. At playgrounds I'm willing to let her try and she can do a TON but we also follow general playground equipment rules. I do NOT allow her to use equipment in ways its not designed such as climbing up slides. I have seen enought kids with perment brain damage (she gos to a special school i see theese kids daily) to know the dangers so yes we do teach general "proper use" but I still do allow her to explore to test to fall to just be a kid.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i do not see "beign a kid" and "safty" as mutally exclusive as some seem to.

I maybe a freak but "Safty is fun" if we are not safe, we get hurt, and not only is that no fun -- but it ends the fun acitivity we are doing...and prevents more (broken arms are no fun, smashed faces are no fun....).

I think kids can and SHOULD be kids, and explore and a few bumps and brusies are not going to hurt them.

However i feel we do a disservice when we -- who have expereince and an understanding of physics and garvity and the abliyt to think ahead -- sit back and let them go willy nilly without direction or limits.

I let DS go as much as i can -- today he tried to climb the rock wall thing on teh BIG KIDS play area t the park -- like for 8 and over size wize -- he got up a little ways, he tried so hard and he ewas so proud, and i was too, but he got suck -- couldn't reverse it and could not go higher -- so i lifted him down, we did this three times. i let him go -- but i was RIGHT THERE the whole time cuz he could have been ER hurt if he fell..........and i removed him (screaming) when teh big kids arrived.

there is a balance --


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
I read only the "yes" position, and it seemed to me her argument was pretty weak. There are plenty of ways in which you can increase the safety of your children without impeding their independence or ability to explore and learn and do things for themselves. Putting on a helmet before a bike ride does not make the experience of a bike ride any less amazing, and it can make a signficant difference in the outcome of an accident. It is mind-boggling to me that someone would argue against this sort of basic protection, as the author seemed to do.

Putting a helmut on a child who is going to ride on a bicycle in the city makes sense (and ADULTS should do the SAME!). Putting a helmut on a child learning to ride a tricycle in the park seems kind of silly to me. I suppose one could argue that this establishes good habits for the child but, well, my DD understands perfectly well that the trike in our yard does not require a helmut whereas the bike in the street does. She is almost 3 years old. It is not rocket science.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I think I am probably more protective than the average MDC mom. I do think some safety issues have gone beyond the "practical" into the "fanatical". But we have to keep in mind that what we see others doing, we are going to apply to our family. What I mean is that we might see a hovering parent, and think, "I wouldn't hover over dd like that! She's not going to trip over her own feet! That parent is a crazy, hovering, over-protective basket case." But what we might not know is that the child has gross motor delays and the parent is doing exactly what the child needs.

My dd is a daredevil, and she gets herself into situations of which she is too young to understand the final outcome. Tree climbing is the favorite. She gets way too high and can't come down. So, here I am at the base of the tree, looking like a parent that is "hovering", but I'm there because I KNOW in about 2 seconds I'm going to hear, "Mommy... I can't get down!" I probably look like I'm hovering, but the fact is, I know my dd and I can predict what is going to happen.

I can see how a lack of parenting might lead to the "masses" being punished (like in the article), but we live in a society. The masses are always going to be short-changed by the ignorant individual in a myriad of cases. Sometimes we benefit as a whole from individuals, too. It goes both ways.

Oh, and for the helmet argument... I'm a cyclist, so I have a keen understanding of bikes, trikes, recumbent, uni and other kinds of human propelled cycle. The helmet, even for tricycles, is important. It only takes going 5 miles an hour and falling less than a foot for a head impact to permanently impair a person. Higher speeds and greater impact distances increase the chance for death. I have a good friend that was not wearing a helmet, and was actually in a track stand at a light (not propelling, just clicked into his pedals and standing on the pedals with his wheel turned... without feet on the ground... standing still) when a bee came at him and distracted him. Obviously, he was an experienced rider and had great balance... he was able to do a track stand... he lost his balance when he tried to keep the bee from going into his jersey, fell over (and was not able to click out of his pedals) and hit his head on the pavement. He suffered some brain damage and was wonky for a while. I don't think it's impaired his life permanently, but it did do some damage. As a cyclist, my mantra is when you're on wheels, the helmet's on the head. Even if I'm going down a driveway. I do it for myself, and I do it for dd. I've seen too many friends/cycling acquaintances die and be permanently damaged at low speeds and low impact velocities. I think all kids need bicycle helmets, and even MORE... parents need to know how they should fit on the child's head... it's the forehead to protect. I hate to see these helmets cocked on the back of the head... might as well let them not wear it at all... it's useless that way.

OTH, I think that getting the exercise is extremely important. If I had a child that wouldn't ride a bike with a helmet, I'd try to put him/her in the most safe situation I could (a closed course, for example) and let him/her ride without. I'd rather to see him/her exercising than to not. In my case, it doesn't matter, because dd sees me with my helmet when I'm riding, and for her, it's just part of riding.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
Cars are way overused in this country because parents don't allow their older children - and teens, even - to walk home from school, or bike to soccer practice, or take the bus to a friend's house. By treating children as incompetents, we make them incompetent.
Dar

I'm with you on this one. I DO think cars are way overused and my side of the argument with cars is (ok....i'm ready to be mega-flamed for this one







: ) the whole riding in the carseat, rear-facing up to 4yo. What is more dangerous? having them FF starting at 1yo (strapped down with a 5-point harness, LATCH, seatbelt, basically the thing doesn't BUDGE), or having them see life going in reverse all of the time...epsecially for those kids who are in the car for a few hours everyday. I'm all for the best possible safety for my children in the car, but the RF for 3-4 yrs is whacked. Going backwards all of the time at 65 mph would make me want to puke. No wonder my DS was miserable in his car seat......until I turned him around at 1yo.









I'm just not sure how we humans have survived this long. I can't live everyday waiting for something bad to happen so I take every possible safety precaution to prevent whatever horrible mishap I think "might" happen. It's already hard enough work just be their parent..............


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Oh, and for the helmet argument... I'm a cyclist, so I have a keen understanding of bikes, trikes, recumbent, uni and other kinds of human propelled cycle. The helmet, even for tricycles, is important. It only takes going 5 miles an hour and falling less than a foot for a head impact to permanently impair a person.

I guess I understand in the street context but then, I would never take my DD (not yet three years old) with her tricycleto a street, period (not even on the sidewalk). We are always in the park or in our yard. When she learns to ride a bicycle, she will ride with a helmut.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Dodge ball is being banned because it was and is a game that (*when compulosry*, like in Gym class) allows kids to torture kids who are less physically adept without recrimination. Pure and simple.


I agree. There are other games you can play where other kids are not bullied and physically harmed. Ever have someone bop you upside the head with one of those balls? Youch.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

I think I am probably more protective than the average MDC mom. I do think some safety issues have gone beyond the "practical" into the "fanatical". But we have to keep in mind that what we see others doing, we are going to apply to our family. What I mean is that we might see a hovering parent, and think, "I wouldn't hover over dd like that! She's not going to trip over her own feet! That parent is a crazy, hovering, over-protective basket case." But what we might not know is that the child has gross motor delays and the parent is doing exactly what the child needs.
i know i am more protective tham most.

i *DO* hover --- and it drived DH nuts, he does NOT hover and thus i do not trust himt o take Theo alone to play areas or parks ---- and I hover because sooooooooooooo many parents do not care.







sad but i will not allow Theo to be hurt by the neglect of another parent.

I hover because he is 18 months and doesn't know.

Yesterday we played in the TODDLER play area of the local mall. a boy abut 8 was stading on things (the little brigde and the outside of the tree slide) his dad was stanig right there talking to him. 1. he was too big to be there by the posted rules, 2. it is posted not to climb on the top or outside of things 3. he fell once and smashed a child walking less well then Theo -- so maybe 14 or 15 months -- landed right on the poor baby. he was being recless and showing disregard for others. then twice while trying to go up the stairs to the slide and downt he slide bigger kids shoved him out of the weay -- it is only beacsue i WAS hovering that he didn't fall about 3 or 3.5 feet backwards off the slide..........................i have to hover

I also want to be there when Theo pushes or cuts in line (which he has not done, he stand back and lets kids go, but he will cuz he gets pushed so much) -- so i can redirecte him to play freindly -- otherwise he will never learn to do so.

it is my responiblity as a paretnt -- to protect and teach -- not to sit and read the paper and let him go wild.

and for thte record -- i hated dodge ball as i was the little unalthletic nerd that everyone threw the ball at first......i will not have DS forced by a PE teacher to play it ... if he and his buddies want to play it (and i bet they will) then that is fine ... as a choice....but i will not let it get out of hand.


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## Igraine (Jul 1, 2006)

I voted "no" also, but I am a bit overboard on safety myself. Some people would think I am a little crazy about safety. I know plenty of educated, well-read parents who pretty much let their kids roam. Are not too concerned for whatever reason? (Some of them think it is too much discipline and their child needs to learn it on their own, others think the kids are being watched by one of the other adults present and others just do not believe anything bad will happen to them.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
................the parents NEED to get off their a%% and be there watching and interacting and intervening. safty (removing toys from the park ) can not and should not replace lazy parents who just need to parent. and saying that some pleole like me are too parnoid about safty aslo does not revolse bad parents who choose not to parent their kids.









Thank you!


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## craftymom (Jun 27, 2005)

I voted yes.

I am all for bike helmets, having known 3 people who received serious head injuries falling off bicycles (all survived because of helmets, but were seriously injured). And car seats are great, not only do they keep kids safer, they also keep them more comfortable.

But I feel so bad for our 8yo next door neighbor who must wear a helmet, knee pads, elbow pads, and wrist guards to ride her bike with training wheels. To me it's no wonder she's ot of the trainers, she can barely move her joints. (And, fwiw, I'm the late-30s mom with 2 kids, she's the 30ish mom with 3!). They also can't believe we have our 7yo raking leaves (rakes are pointy!) and let him mow (it's a reel mower) with supervision. And he takes out the trash--another neighbor stopped allowing her son to play with mine because we allowed him to "touch the trashcans"--hers WAS NOT ALLOWED to touch the city trash cans--even at parties to throw something away--because they are dirty. They moved









And I have been told off at the park for allowing my kids to go up the slides and down head first. Down a slow plastic slide that ends at the ground, when the place isn't crowded! And the things other moms say to their kids (to avoid talking to me







) "Yes, he's going to down head first, but YOU can't do that, that's DANGEROUS, he will get HURT." Poor kids! My older ds takes ice skating lessons, and you wouldn't believe the number of kids in helmets. These aren't hockey lessons! They can barely go! And the handgels and fabric shopping cart seat things to keep kids safe from germs. I could go on forever about safety from germs.

Living in safety-crazed LA, where people PAY to have their homes babyproofed!!!!


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Putting a helmut on a child who is going to ride on a bicycle in the city makes sense (and ADULTS should do the SAME!). Putting a helmut on a child learning to ride a tricycle in the park seems kind of silly to me. I suppose one could argue that this establishes good habits for the child but, well, my DD understands perfectly well that the trike in our yard does not require a helmut whereas the bike in the street does. She is almost 3 years old. It is not rocket science.

humor me though...

is the no-helmet-in-the-yard because she's riding on grass instead of asphalt? or the absence of other vehicles? both?

To me, you can face-plant off a trike whether you're in your yard or on a sidewalk or in a park, and it makes sense to try to protect against injuries that could result from such face plants. Doesn't mean no trike riding, just means wear the basic safety gear and have fun!


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

when it comes to trikes and toys like that -- i think that setting the habit is as importnat as the good from the helmet. JMO


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
humor me though...

is the no-helmet-in-the-yard because she's riding on grass instead of asphalt? or the absence of other vehicles? both?

To me, you can face-plant off a trike whether you're in your yard or on a sidewalk or in a park, and it makes sense to try to protect against injuries that could result from such face plants. Doesn't mean no trike riding, just means wear the basic safety gear and have fun!

I am not the person you are addressing here but we have the same "rule". Although all rules are negotiable. We do have pavement in our driveway and dd has taken more than her fair share of diggers. We started with her wearing a helmet when using her trike since her trike is a bit top-heavy. But she is on and off the things about a million times a day and the helmet was getting in the way. We noticed when she fell that she was much better able to protect herself without the added bulk on her head. I now am a believer that helmets are not necessarily safer. We do wear helmets when riding bikes on the road. Dd never rides her trike out of the yard but does ride her tag-a-long bike with me. The speeds are much much faster and we are in traffic so that is the deciding factor for us. I "know" that I am suppose to think helmets are always safer but there is a line between "safety" and discouraging the use of a toy to hit a tiny percentage (if that) more safety points.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
when it comes to trikes and toys like that -- i think that setting the habit is as importnat as the good from the helmet. JMO

My dd has had zero problem having different habits for different situations. I have never subscribed to the theory that we must do x, y, and z because they will "have to do it later".


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

My dd has had zero problem having different habits for different situations. I have never subscribed to the theory that we must do x, y, and z because they will "have to do it later".
my son is only 18 monthand HABITS and ROTINE are EVERYTHGING







if we do it this way, we always do it this way.........even when I want to skip a routine..........

He doesn't have a helment yet, but when he gets his first little bike to ride on our rock driveway -- he will.

But I think the point is for parents to parent and make choices

A


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
My dd has had zero problem having different habits for different situations. I have never subscribed to the theory that we must do x, y, and z because they will "have to do it later".

Yes, and EVERY other kid is EXACTLY Like your DD!!
They aren't different at all. Since it isn't a problem for your daughter, it must not be a problem for any other kid.

Be grateful that your DD is flexible and doesn't mind if things go differently than she expected.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I am not sure if I think safety has gone too far in general, but I know that it hasn't at our house. I am a pretty lax parent so beyond carseats and helmets for long bike rides and full protection when skateboarding down ramps, pretty much anything goes.

My 2 year old doesn't wear a helmet on her trike and neither kids wear any protection on their scooter. Yes they have both fallen off and got some scratches, but nothing serious. And (I may be a bad mommy) but if my son is just riding his bike in the driveway, I don't usually make him wear his helmet.

Where I get very protective is when my son goes skateboarding. He is only 4 and likes to go down ramps so I require him to wear pads and helmets.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
the whole riding in the carseat, rear-facing up to 4yo. What is more dangerous? having them FF starting at 1yo (strapped down with a 5-point harness, LATCH, seatbelt, basically the thing doesn't BUDGE), or having them see life going in reverse all of the time...epsecially for those kids who are in the car for a few hours everyday. I'm all for the best possible safety for my children in the car, but the RF for 3-4 yrs is whacked. Going backwards all of the time at 65 mph would make me want to puke. No wonder my DS was miserable in his car seat......until I turned him around at 1yo.









How would you explain older kids who are able to communicate actually preferring to ride rear-facing? To me, the safety is worth random strangers thinking it's whack







. I'm fanatical about car safety, for adults as well as children, and if I could I would ride in a 5-pt harness. Other than that, though, I am pretty laid-back about safety.

The other day I had a lady come running screaming across a parking lot at me because she was sure my 2 yo (who was standing leaning on me, with her arm around my leg, sucking her thumb) was going to be run over by some guy backing out 4 feet away as I put DD2 into her carseat. She then proceeded to direct traffic to make sure DD wouldn't get run over







: . That was a little over the top, but she doesn't know DD1 well enough to know that she is NOT going to bolt.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't hover.

Parents who hover kind of annoy me. But I'm sure I annoy them by not getting up off my donkey and being two inches from my kids' elbows at all times, so it's all good.

I think I hovered more when my kids were little, mostly because I perceived most bigger children as potential threats. Now that my kids are competant to defend themselves and act defensively, I don't need to do that anymore.

I don't think hovering contributes to safety in the long term, but I see it as a neutral personal preference that one should be able to do or not do as they please, and a strategy that can make sense situationally or due to the hovering target's age.

I like that car seats and helmets seem to be standard now. However, sometimes I think safety rules can lead to lax parenting, especially in the realm of children being allowed to do/experience things. I thought one of my friends was going to have a mammoth, transverse, when she found out I let my kids play with real tools (they must wear safety goggles and gloves if they're hammering) once they hit 3 years old. Or that I allow my 5 year old to peel carrots with a sharp peeler and let her scramble eggs without full contact gear and me standing by her side with a fire extinguisher (there is one in the kitchen, though). I find it to be lax parenting if one doesn't teach one's children how to contribute to family work, and learn how to deal with bumps and bruises, and you don't learn how to cook and do minor home repair projects without some scrapes and mishaps.

Would I let my kids ride around in the back of a open flatbed truck, like I did as a kid (man, was it FUN!)? No. I wouldn't allow their dad to tow them on innertubes tied to the back of the truck in a muddy field, either (another thing that was pretty damn fun). I do, however, let my kids hammer nails into boards, take apart cheapy appliances such as radios, clocks, ect that we're going to take to the electronic/metal recycling center anyway. I let them throw rocks and sticks (as long as they aren't targeting anything living, but a box or another stick or rock is fine). I let them climb trees and jump off stumps (even though it means I've had to bandage/clean scraped elbows and knees). If no one else is on the playground, I do the unthinkable and allow them to climb up the slide and down the ladder too. When they get into a squabble amongst themselves or between friends I don't immediately intervene. My kids have even been known to paint with non-washable paint, when they helped us spot-paint the baseboards.

And if we go to the park, my big fat butt is on the bench, watching them play, unless they *invite* me to come do something with them, or they're having trouble handling a disagreement (or if they start one, but to be honest, that hasn't happened yet...they tend to be the protectors of the littler ones). Even when they get hurt, they want me to hug them and kiss it, yes, but they like doing the first aid kit themselves, if their scrape is in a spot where it's feasible for them to do so. They've bandaged other kids on the playground with our kit, including the kids of hoverers.









All that being said, I don't feel there is THAT much of a difference in the level of safety awareness in American society. People are still more likely to fear stranger abduction and worry about that, rather than worry that they have no clue how to do the heimlich maneuver on a young child and do not know basic first aid or CPR. I'm pleased that we have better vehicles that shield bodies better in a crash, and that car seats are required by law. However, we have more people on the roads, going at faster speeds, and with more distractions than ever before. Now, peversely, the kids who are being bullied are most likely going to be pegged as troublemakers and potential dangers, thanks to school shootings. I think we have more of an emphasis on safety *things*, especially those you can buy...but somewhat less on safety skills. To be honest, I think the net effect is maybe a little more positive than zero, but not spectacular.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Yes, and EVERY other kid is EXACTLY Like your DD!!
They aren't different at all. Since it isn't a problem for your daughter, it must not be a problem for any other kid.

Be grateful that your DD is flexible and doesn't mind if things go differently than she expected.

Apparently you read some unfounded hostility in my post?

Whatever the case, nowhere did I suggest that every child is the same. I can certainly understand that there is a tiny minority of people out there that cannot handle any deviation from set rules 24/7. However, I also often see the argument (with no qualifiers about abnormally high inflexibility), that children must be made to do certain things.....wake up early, raise hands, be miserable, etc.....because one day they will "have" to do it. IME, my dd along with every_single_kid I have ever met can understand the difference between short trike in yard and zooming bike in traffic. I appreciate the need for consistancy for children with problems in that area but I do not beleive consitancy just for the sake of consistancy is necessary. In fact, IMO, it can backfire with a kid not understanding the reasons behind safety rules (since even a 4 yo can probably see that trike riding in a yard carries minimal risk) and perhaps shedding the helmet as soon as mom is not looking.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
How would you explain older kids who are able to communicate actually preferring to ride rear-facing? To me, the safety is worth random strangers thinking it's whack







. I'm fanatical about car safety, for adults as well as children, and if I could I would ride in a 5-pt harness. Other than that, though, I am pretty laid-back about safety.

Even though my child was a only year old, I felt he WAS communicating to me that he didn't want to be RF anymore. He didn't need to be a certain age to communicate that to me. Actually, I could care less too if a random stranger thinks that whatever choices I make are whacked, I was saying that *I* think that it is whacked to put *my* child RF. I'm more fanatical about what my child is communicating to me rather than what some "expert" tells me is better for my child. I'm not here judging whether someone else chooses to have their child RF, but I think it's a little over the top when I've seen people on here freak out because they saw someone's child FF at when THEY thought that they should have their child RF.


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## sunflwrmoonbeam (Oct 9, 2006)

I voted yes. The obsession with hygeine in particular is ridiculous. I used to work in food service, and in order to meet the Illinois health department guidelines of hand washing, my hands would start bleeding. Literally, for that job, if I followed the rules I would be washing and sanitizing my hands every 2 minutes. Now, what's worse, touching the phone and then making a pizza, or bleeding into peoples' food?

Also, my toddler neice and nephew are some of the cleanest kids I know. The two year old needs his hands washed off immediately if he touches the ground, and the three year old wouldn't help me bake because she didn't want to get dirty. I suspect this behavior comes from their parents being too concerned about hygeine and being clean all the time, and now the kids don't enjoy getting messy.

I have every intention of encouraging my kids to climb trees, build forts, and play in the mud. It's all part of being a kid.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Apparently you read some unfounded hostility in my post?

Whatever the case, nowhere did I suggest that every child is the same. I can certainly understand that there is a tiny minority of people out there that cannot handle any deviation from set rules 24/7. However, I also often see the argument (with no qualifiers about abnormally high inflexibility), that children must be made to do certain things.....wake up early, raise hands, be miserable, etc.....because one day they will "have" to do it. IME, my dd along with every_single_kid I have ever met can understand the difference between short trike in yard and zooming bike in traffic. I appreciate the need for consistency for children with problems in that area but I do not believe constancy just for the sake of consistency is necessary. In fact, IMO, it can backfire with a kid not understanding the reasons behind safety rules (since even a 4 yo can probably see that trike riding in a yard carries minimal risk) and perhaps shedding the helmet as soon as mom is not looking.

And my point is this: Not all kids are the same. Just because something works for your DD and even every kid YOU KNOW does not mean it just applies to kids in general. You imply that any child who is not like your DD (and every other kid you know) in needing consistency is in a small minority, a minority that is challenged.

My son in particular does better if we just have him wear his helmet every time he rides his bike. Even if he is at home riding up and down the driveway, he wears it. We got him a helmet that he really likes, and he has never complained about it. As he gets older he will know that he needs to wear a helmet while he is on a bike. EVERY TIME.

I don't want to teach him that right now it is only sometimes, but later it will be all the time...KWIM?

IMO letting him ride his bike without a helmet is sending the message that the helmet is "optional", and that you only need them in "dangerous" situations.

We are sending the message that any time you ride a bike, you put on a helmet. I am not always going to be with him to make judgment calls about which situations do or don;t require a helmet, and I really don't want a ten year old trying to make the decision.

IMO the child who is more likely to remove the helmet is the one who hasn't been wearing one and now finds it annoying, or has been taught that it is perfectly okay to take the helmet off and still ride the bike.

I understand that all of this is not a problem for your DD, but it would really confuse my son if we only had him wearing his helmet sometimes. He wouldn't understand how important it is to wear the helmet.

Oh Yeah, and my son does not "Have problems in this area", I just think it makes sense to form a good habit now.
A bike helmet is completely different from teaching your kid to raise their hand. A helmet is a common sense safety precaution.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
And my point is this: Not all kids are the same. Just because something works for your DD and even every kid YOU KNOW does not mean it just applies to kids in general. You imply that any child who is not like your DD (and every other kid you know) in needing consistency is in a small minority, a minority that is challenged.

My son in particular does better if we just have him wear his helmet every time he rides his bike. Even if he is at home riding up and down the driveway, he wears it. We got him a helmet that he really likes, and he has never complained about it. As he gets older he will know that he needs to wear a helmet while he is on a bike. EVERY TIME.

I don't want to teach him that right now it is only sometimes, but later it will be all the time...KWIM?

IMO letting him ride his bike without a helmet is sending the message that the helmet is "optional", and that you only need them in "dangerous" situations.

We are sending the message that any time you ride a bike, you put on a helmet. I am not always going to be with him to make judgment calls about which situations do or don;t require a helmet, and I really don't want a ten year old trying to make the decision.

IMO the child who is more likely to remove the helmet is the one who hasn't been wearing one and now finds it annoying, or has been taught that it is perfectly okay to take the helmet off and still ride the bike.

I understand that all of this is not a problem for your DD, but it would really confuse my son if we only had him wearing his helmet sometimes. He wouldn't understand how important it is to wear the helmet.

Oh Yeah, and my son does not "Have problems in this area", I just think it makes sense to form a good habit now.
A bike helmet is completely different from teaching your kid to raise their hand. A helmet is a common sense safety precaution.

That's cool. I totally understand that you are doing what you feel is best for your child and that is what this is all about. I just wanted to point out that those of us that do not helmet our kids the one millions times they hop on the trike in the yard are not throwing caution to the wind. Some might be but others might have a method to the madness









Actually, dd and I talk A LOT about safety. I try not to make hard and fast rules. Puposely. I want dd to start learning to assess risk and make choices when the consequences are not nearly as dire as they might be when she is 10. I believe that having a realistic outlook on what can actually happen makes me more believable in the end. At this point dd rides her trike daily without a helmet but also rides her tag-a-long daily with a helmet. We have discussed the differences in risk and why we might wear our helmets at one time and not at others. I DO want my 10 yo to be thinking critically about risk. Of course, I would just like to assume she will know to always wear her helmet when on anything bigger than her trike. And I could probably make sure that happens by making a hard-and-fast rule about using them. But at 10, she will likely encounter risks that I will not be able to predict....and I may very well not be there. Is that person offering me a ride safe? Is jumping out of the treehouse a good idea? Can I swim across the pool alone? I think that learning to make safety choices should start early.

Also, I really do think that *most* kids can handle the distinction. I do recognize that some people can not and never will be able to handle deviations in rules. And for the parents of those kids, my heart goes out to them. But too many people dismiss little ones as being incapable of reasoning.....which is how I think we got in the current safety-crazed situation to begin with. We feel the need to protect people from themselves. While it might help a few people that really cannot reason for themselves, I think the greater cost is too much.


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## MommaGreenBean (May 8, 2007)

Yeah. In some ways.

I'm OCD about car seats, but within reason. If we're going to the mail box (a mile away on a dirt road) I quickly stick the carseat in as just a place to set her, but still rear facing. If we're going to town I do the whole 9 yards of making sure it doesn't budge. And she'll be rear facing til she's 35 lbs, I'm not about to challenge the laws of physics with my child's body.

We UCd, which many would flip out about.

We slept with her UNDER the covers as a newbie. It's cold in Montana in the winter!

My kids will ride dirt bikes and *gasp* shoot guns as soon as they physically are able. But the guns will be locked up when not in use.

I don't leave my children with anyone but my DH even for a minute.

I'm anal about introducing foods, but I have a TON of food allergies.

So I'm a mix of things to horrify either side







You can call it whatever, but I call it listening to the Holy Spirit in regards to what is right for *my* family.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
In a lot of ways I do think we are taking things WAY too far. Or at least to be a "good parent" we take things too far. While I am all for car seats, childproof medication bottles, and bike helmets, I do wonder what we are really doing when we restrict our kids from being kids in the name of "safety". Luckily, my local culture is not this way. Kids still run in packs....sometimes after dark. Introducing nuts before age 5 is OK and no one makes my kid stop climbing up the slide backwards. I do not feel evil if I allow my child to have a snack when no sink is available for washing up beforehand. Most of the overprotectiveness (my opinion only, of course) is seen online and specifically on MDC. Every time I see a thread where people do not let their kids play outside alone until they are 16 or parents think tent camping is some sort of lethal risk, I think about turning in my AP card. IMO it is stifling for the kids and fear mongering for the adults....not healthy for anyone.


amen!! I am absolutely floored by the over protectiveness here.

We wear bike helmets around here because we own a bike shop and see the damage. but our kids also ride in the street. they climb trees and climb up slide backwards (I really have to restrain myself when i hear a parent say "thats not how you go up a slide" i want to scream "where have you been? thats totally the way any self respecting kid goes up a slide!!! how else will they avoid the hot lava?"), they get peanut butter before a year and i introduce more than one new food at a time. they get sugar and artificial colors occasionally and lick plastic (among other things). i don't consider an illness or even an injury all the bag of a deal. (they had a sleep over with kids who had poison ivy. my mom was beside herself. "aahhh what if they catch it?" well what if they do? then we will put calamine on it. its not the end of the world but missing a sleep over with your only cousin, who is the exact same age as you, who you only see once a year would indeed be the end of the world. so go outside and play on the trampoline with your two sisters and other two cousins in the dark without insect repellent and then the 5 of you can cram into the bunk bed with no rail and keep each other up all night because i am just not worried if you brush up against her poison ivy which i don't believe is actually even contagious. memories like that are just worth the risk. they will remember that night forever.)

I will stop my rant now. this whole safety thing really gets on my nerves. its like people feel like the better parent the more they obsess. the safer their kids are. but i really wonder what is wrong with kids who have no scars. have they been living in a bubble?


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

Oh, I don't really think it's gone too far. We all talk about how free we felt as kids and wring our hands that our kids won't feel the same way, but we had less "freedom" than our folks did too and that turned out all right. I think it's more accurate to say that we hope our children will have memories as delightful as our own, that we will be able to connect with our children through shared experiences, and we worry that if their circumstances are different from ours then we will have less connection. The fact is that LOTS of things are different between generations -- media, communications, clothing, education, religious choices, emphasis on safety, types of neighborhoods and families. But whether we like it or not, accidents are still a big cause of hospital trips and death of young children, and trying to avoid those is pretty normal.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

:


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

I don't hover.
I do HOVER and B&&^H at DH for NOT doing so. In fact i do not trust DH to take DS to the playplace at th mall or the park alone.

I hover becasue

1. my son is 18 months and i need to be there to help him learn we do not push, or grab people, that we take truns, that we do not climb up slides, and we do not walk infront of swings. i also need to be right there to make sure he doesn't just walk off the 5 foot landing of the slded (he has, twice) or try to go downt he rock climbing walkk faceing outward (once)......

2*. other parents do not parent.* We go to the toddler play area at teh mall -- for 4 and under. 10 years olds jumping fro toy to toy, a freind DD got kicked in the head and knocked down. they run over the littel kids who the area was made for, DS has been knowcked down, tripped over and stepped on. they break the rules, climbing on the outside of equipments and such, that then DS tries to copy. the parents are either not there, or reading, or talking -- not parenting.

Quote:

I don't think hovering contributes to safety in the long term, but I see it as a neutral personal preference that one should be able to do or not do as they please, and a strategy that can make sense situationally or due to the hovering target's age.
I agree with this statement ...............but how about protecting the other kids, the ones who you complain about the parents hovering -- chances are THAT IS WHY they hover....cuz of the bigger kids who are not being interacted with to remind them, and watch them, that they are careful aroudn the little ones. it is great your kids can know take care of themselves, there are now smaller kids that they need to watch out for. I know i am one of the parents that annoy you -- but i feel the need, have SEEN the need -- to protect DS in toddler area where he should be safe to explore, and i should be able to let him go and relaxe a little. it is nice YOUR kids are nice to little kids -- most are not, some just don't notice and others are intentially mean, and others try to help and hurt (liek the boy, cute though he was, who shoved DS down a big slide "to get him started").

my friends we go with a lot both have 2 year olds, and a little over 2. they do not have to hover as close -- though they stay pretty close and are ALWAYS watching, as their boys have learned the basics of taking tunrs, some safty ruls (gasp) and are more steady on their feet and not as easy to trample.

I am not overprotective -- I am a parents fullfilling my responiblities. If I were over protective...we would not GO to the play place or the park to start with. ..........I did ride on a slide with DS while DH pulled us -- slow -- behind the riding lawn mower -- and it was a blast, would i let DS ride alone, or let anyone but DH, Grandpa, Gandma or ME pull the slide NO.....i am not over protective, I am a parent -- assessing each and every situation, and allowing DS to do as much as he can while being there to protect him and others.

I find it silly

........................there are moms here who would FILP to use a disposable diaper or eat non-organic food or even talk about going to a doctors office, yet i am accused of being over protective when i hover to make sure my child 1. plays nice and 2. is not hurt by another child and 3. is not hurt by his own lack of understanding of gravity and the like....................it is some odd combo where we all over to out do each other in NFL and then out do each other in out "trust" of our children..................I am more worried about DS falling off a 6 foot slide than him getting an occsional non-oprgainc peice of fruit -- one will hurt him for sure, and maybe forever, and the other while not my choice, is not going to end him in ER.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
In fact i do not trust DH to take DS to the playplace at th mall or the park alone.


You don't trust your own DH w/ your child???? Am I reading this correctly?


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

not alone at playplace or park -- he doesn't stay close enough --- DS has been knocked off the slide when dad is with him, and steped on by running big kid....again when Dad was with him.









They go to the store together, they go to home depot togerher, the work in the yard together.......they ride the lawn tractor (no blades).....

they do a lot.

but NOT the park or the play place ........ nope sorry -- not if there are other kids there..............

Aimee


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
not alone at playplace or park -- he doesn't stay close enough --- DS has been knocked off the slide when dad is with him, and steped on by running big kid....again when Dad was with him.









They go to the store together, they go to home depot togerher, the work in the yard together.......they ride the lawn tractor (no blades).....

they do a lot.

but NOT the park or the play place ........ nope sorry -- not if there are other kids there..............

Aimee


I'm not understanding why your DH doesn't watch him then, based on what has happened in the past. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand...it seems really odd that your DH can't be entrusted w/ your (his) child.

What would happen if something were to happen to you? I swear I don't mean this mean, but it's a possibility, kwim?


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 

........................there are moms here who would FILP to use a disposable diaper or eat non-organic food or even talk about going to a doctors office, yet i am accused of being over protective when i hover to make sure my child 1. plays nice and 2. is not hurt by another child and 3. is not hurt by his own lack of understanding of gravity and the like....................it is some odd combo where we all over to out do each other in NFL and then out do each other in out "trust" of our children...................

Oh I've so BTDT IRL. I know moms who would never let their child watch an "in appropriate" tv show or eat certain junk foods etc. but who totally ignore it when their kid is pushing/shoving/whatever another kid or acting inappropriately for the situation (ie the church nursery).

I don't hover now that my kids are older and I'm confident of their physical skill so I let them do things that others might not but when they were young I did hover a bit. I feel like it really helped then learn social skills. I don't believe that kids learn social skills from other kids being mean to them.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

DH doesn't get the interaction with other kids thing "getting knocked down is part of being a child" --maaaybe but not being knocked off of a 5 foot high slide by a 8 year old.......

maybe when T is older and more able to fend for himself -- they can go do that stuff, we will see, or maybe DH will wake up -- my fear is DS is gonna have to get hurt worse than he has been.

If i die DH will move home and live in the town iwth my folks, and my dad and mom will take care of DS. and chances are good DS and the other kids will get hurt a lot more without me there.

I asm fine with scraped knees and bumps of childhood -- i am NOT ok with my sson being intentianlly injured by another child, or unintentioanlly injuded by a larger child cuz no one was there to stop it.

Sucks, but all DH (and all of us) have our limitations.......


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
(they had a sleep over with kids who had poison ivy. my mom was beside herself. "aahhh what if they catch it?" well what if they do? then we will put calamine on it.

Sorry to stray OT here but does your mom realize that poison ivy is a PLANT. Of course it's not contagious!!!!!!


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
DH doesn't get the interaction with other kids thing "getting knocked down is part of being a child" --maaaybe but not being knocked off of a 5 foot high slide by a 8 year old.......

maybe when T is older and more able to fend for himself -- they can go do that stuff, we will see, or maybe DH will wake up -- my fear is DS is gonna have to get hurt worse than he has been.

If i die DH will move home and live in the town iwth my folks, and my dad and mom will take care of DS. and chances are good DS and the other kids will get hurt a lot more without me there.

I asm fine with scraped knees and bumps of childhood -- i am NOT ok with my sson being intentianlly injured by another child, or unintentioanlly injuded by a larger child cuz no one was there to stop it.

Sucks, but all DH (and all of us) have our limitations.......

Okay. Thanks for explaining.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

also i think it is important to remember

parenting and some stafty vs protectiveness vs overprotectiveness has to be based on child's age and personality and ablity -- there are very few absolutes........


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Sorry to stray OT here but does your mom realize that poison ivy is a PLANT. Of course it's not contagious!!!!!!
again OT -- but PI CAN be spread between people, or from dogs to people, just as it can spread across a person's body for the point of contact.

either by the 2nd person contacting the PI oil on teh orginal kids clothing or skin or hair (how you get it from the pet) ..... or if a blister is scratched open and the 2nd person contacts that........

my dad caught it from me more than once when i played outside -- though i never reacted to it. he got it cleaning me up and changing my clothes.

DH has gotten it fromt eh dogs more than once.

DN1 spread it all over his body from a place on his calf,a nd shared it with DN2 who at teh time was barely crawling and not out in the weeds playing.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
again OT -- but PI CAN be spread between people, or from dogs to people, just as it can spread across a person's body for the point of contact.

either by the 2nd person contacting the PI oil on teh orginal kids clothing or skin or hair (how you get it from the pet) ..... or if a blister is scratched open and the 2nd person contacts that........

my dad caught it from me more than once when i played outside -- though i never reacted to it. he got it cleaning me up and changing my clothes.

DH has gotten it fromt eh dogs more than once.

DN1 spread it all over his body from a place on his calf,a nd shared it with DN2 who at teh time was barely crawling and not out in the weeds playing.


You are correct that the oil can stay on the skin, but incorrect about the blister being scratched open. Google Poison Ivy and Contagious and you will get a lot of info.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I don't hover.

Parents who hover kind of annoy me. But I'm sure I annoy them by not getting up off my donkey and being two inches from my kids' elbows at all times, so it's all good.











Aimee, who is accusing you of being overprotective because you hover? What did I miss? Not Tigerchild.

You * should * hover your 18 month old. I would mine. I don't think that's being "overprotective." I think that is reasonable.

(Parents who do hover don't annoy me.







If the kids are older, I just feel sorry for both of them.)

But I don't hover my kids (like your friends of older children don't) because I don't have to anymore. But I do watch.

I allow my children lots of freedom (to jump far and high) from the age they were ready. My son was ready at age 4. It made one neighbor of 2 little boys close in age very nervous. She would make comments to my sitter, making my sitter self-conscious, but I reassured her it was FINE.

I learned at my son's developmental, play-based preschool that research (don't ask me where, I tried to look, good luck and post it if you find it) shows (as I was told) that risk-taking (in play -







) is good for reading down the road.








Makes sense to me.









A child is LEARNING about limits (from within, not from someone telling them what's what - and that's valuable) when they climb a tree too far high and can't get back down without help. That's not a bad thing. I think you are being a good mama by letting your child do that. Even if you are at the bottom waiting (or close by watching) is a good thing either way.

I feel sorry for the both parent and the child who are prohibited from doing that because of fear of injury.

My 7 year old son is a kinesthetic learner. Thankfully, he isn't prone to injuries. We've never been to the ER. I'm not surprised. Scrapped knees, yes, but nothing horrible.

Our neighbor up the cul-de-sac has their 8 and 12? year old use motorized scooters, I won't. That makes me nervous.


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## Cheeriogal (Feb 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunflwrmoonbeam* 
I voted yes. The obsession with hygeine in particular is ridiculous. I used to work in food service, and in order to meet the Illinois health department guidelines of hand washing, my hands would start bleeding. Literally, for that job, if I followed the rules I would be washing and sanitizing my hands every 2 minutes. Now, what's worse, touching the phone and then making a pizza, or bleeding into peoples' food?


I promise that I am not a germaphobe - my house is absolute proof of that. But I'd rather you take your bleeding hands home than prepare food for sale to others (or maybe just me?) after touching the phone. When I worked at a fast food place as a teen, our job duties were pretty much set up so that people handling money or answering phones weren't making the food too.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Aimee, I don't "complain" about other parents hovering, I just said that hoverers annoy me.

Not sure why you're directing your ire towards me, when I stated full out it can be situationally appropriate. You're the one making declarations about non-hoverers not parenting, and people sitting on the bench not doing anything.

I'm sure, were we to meet, I probably wouldn't notice you (since it's fairly common for tods&under parents to hover, what else are you supposed to do on a mixed age play situation?), and I'm sure you'd probably not notice me except for perhaps some momentary disdain at yet another mama parking her big old butt on a bench and not running and playing with her kid, if you had time for all that while watching your very young child. You've made those comments several times in the course of the thread. There's frankly nothing you or I can do about stupid or careless people, regardless of whether we hover or not. I support your right to do whatever it is you feel you need to do to protect your child, I just hope that you'd back off and let me do my thing too, so long as my kids weren't bugging yours.

Not everyone parking their butt on the bench is inattentive. Even if we sneak a peek at a book now and then. I didn't say that all hoverers wrap their children in bubble wrap and sterilize them 5 times every hours while they're in high risk situations did I? No. I just said that I found it personally annoying, and I find it doubly annoying with the expectation that I should be doing it to shoved into my face. Do I make mean faces at the hovering mamas? No. As I hope you don't at the people who are sitting on the sidelines whose children are behaving just fine. I might have to stick my tongue out at you, if I caught you giving me a dirty look, and I hope we'd both laugh. One can always dream, right?


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I wanted to come back to this after reading with great interest the hypothetical seat belt thread since it really got me thinking.

I voted the first time that I think we have taken safety too far. While I think car seats, bike helmets, bedding standard (ie crib slats), etc are all good, great even, I think we have taken the overall *idea* of safety to an extreme. Antibacterial soaps and gels. Slides with waves in them so kids go slower. Never letting little Johnny play outside alone in a fenced in, protected backyard because there *might* be a rabid squirrel or snake never mind a pedophile.

But even statistically proven safety measure can be taken to an extreme

The idea that a parent would never, EVER even in the most EXTREME circumstance not travel in a MV w/o a car seat bewilders me.







:

Personally I am lucky (privileged) enough to own 2 cars and 2 car seats so the issue of using a car seat is a non-issue for me 99.9% of the time. Plus I have a partner with flexible schedule who works close by who could help out if needed. However I have been in an extreme circumstance and to me the weighted risk factors made choosing to put my 4 year old in the back with a seat belt MUCH better than risk of not doing so. Was it a risk? Absolutely but the other options were even riskier. To do this day I have not regretted that decision.

And the inches away hovering thing. Has it really saved a child from death or major bodily injury (hypothetical question as I know that someones cousin had an Aunt who knew a person that caught a child right before falling off a highrise because they hovered). Personally I found that the mom's who hover at the playground *we* go tend to get in the way of the other kids and this causes more problems. Does it hurt to skin knee, scrape an elbow or bonk your head? Yes! But that's how we all learn, by the mistakes we make. I think we can watch for a child's safety, make sure they are playing nice, etc from a bench a few feet away or off to the sides of a play structure.

Someone said earlier I think- there are no absolutes. We all have to way the risk factors and make the best decisions we can.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
Sorry to stray OT here but does your mom realize that poison ivy is a PLANT. Of course it's not contagious!!!!!!

i was pretty sure poison ivy was not. poison oak is. the oils from the plant really stick to you (and anything you were wearing) and can spread. you really really have to be careful not to share towels and it is recommend that if you can part with the clothes you were wearing that you toss them. nasty stuff. poison ivy is pretty benign as far as I know.

it was my moms freak out not mine. either way i was willing to risk it.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Yes, IMHO people are completely irrational about this. Like I said in another thread, I see moms following their 6 year olds around the playground saying "DON'T RUN! You might fall!" but they drive there, which is far riskier than falling on a padded playground.







: And what's so bad about falling, anyhow? Falls from heights can be dangerous, but just tripping is merely unpleasant most of the time.

I know a little girl whose grandmother (who was her main caregiver) told her not to run also all the time. She's overweight at 8 in a country where there are very few overweight children.


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
i was pretty sure poison ivy was not. poison oak is. the oils from the plant really stick to you (and anything you were wearing) and can spread. you really really have to be careful not to share towels and it is recommend that if you can part with the clothes you were wearing that you toss them. nasty stuff. poison ivy is pretty benign as far as I know.

it was my moms freak out not mine. either way i was willing to risk it.









I think poison ivy _is_ like poison oak, and you can "catch" it from the oils that remain on the skin of the unfortunate soul who got into it. It really is a pretty miserable condition to have, but ultimately not particularly harmful - so I can understand both the freak out and your more measured response.

Yooper, thanks for the further illumination of the why's and how's of your situation. I didn't read any hostility or generalizations into your posts in response to my question, and appreciate your perspective.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I like bike helmets, and car seats. But some of the other safety equipment has gone too far.

I saw a two year old riding a big wheel trike wearing a bike helmet, knee pads and elbow pads, while his father walked so close with his arms ready to catch the child. Just let the kid have fun! Even if he did fall, he wasn't going to need the knee and elbow pads.

Other good ideas...

1. getting rid of merrry go rounds at the park.
2. skate parks
3. buckles on shopping carts
4. sunscreen

(lots more, I'm sure)

But, some people way over do the safety issues. They over protect, and in my opinion, rob the kids of freedom to make small mistakes. Mistakes are how we learn.

I agree we've taken things too far.

My sister has twin boys and they do the whole riding the bike with all the pads on. These kids are TWO years old and can't even reach the pedals yet but she has them in a helmet, knee pads, elbow pads, and long sleeves just in case. Oh, and they only ride on the grass. C'mon! REEEEDICUUULOUS!


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

yes--I think that marketing and $$$$ has a lot to do with it; it is like a parent's desire to keep their children safe is seen as a money making opportunity and so you NEED all of this stuff to be safe, otherwise you are a bad bad bad parent.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
yes--I think that marketing and $$$$ has a lot to do with it; it is like a parent's desire to keep their children safe is seen as a money making opportunity and so you NEED all of this stuff to be safe, otherwise you are a bad bad bad parent.

YES YES YES.
Go to the One Step Ahead website and go to the safety part of the products. Holy cow. i never realized how much I "Need" according to these people. Now, I will state that some special needs children might need certain products. I am not an idiot. But a perfectly healthy, developmentally sound 2 year old does not need a helmet to walk around the house in. Am I crazy or is this getting out of control? I am glad safety products exist today. Certainly we have tremedously improved the safety of children over the years with new inventions like door handle guards, but do we really need all these gizmos and contraptions?


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## herwitsend (Nov 10, 2005)

We can be vigilant about our kids safety and things can still "happen". Any time we try to control our environment, the environment will prove to you it can't be done.

I don't really think trying to keep our kids safe is the big issue for me. I think the obsession with safety products is what has been taken too far. I've got to spend $200 on products for my baby just so we can get in a friend's pool! A pp mentioned the sunscreen, UV/UVB swimwear (with flotation) a life jacket, swimmies, disposable swim diapers, swim shoes and goggles. It's a big joke! Then, when your kid has that false sense of security from always floating (artificially) in the pool, he jumps in without it all on and SURPRISE, he sinks!

I think that our job as parents is to teach genuine safety and common sense (don't talk to strangers, look before you cross the street, don't put your mouth on the water fountain, don't get in the pool without an adult's permission). A lot of the safety issues in the article and this thread are more respect issues than safety issues, though. You don't teach your kids that they shouldn't jump off the mall play equipment onto a toddler's head because it's not safe. You teach them to value others as important! "You are valuable, my child, but the world does not revolve around you. That toddler is smaller than you and you need to watch out for him because he cannot protect himself yet."


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheeriogal* 
I promise that I am not a germaphobe - my house is absolute proof of that. But I'd rather you take your bleeding hands home than prepare food for sale to others (or maybe just me?) after touching the phone. When I worked at a fast food place as a teen, our job duties were pretty much set up so that people handling money or answering phones weren't making the food too.

Did you ever work at a small food establishment where you were the only employee to handle register, phone, and food? Been there, done that, got tired quick of running in the back all the darn time to wash my hands. I didn't have kids or a family to support at the time but i still had car payments and insurance and living expenses and I didn't have the luxury to just "take myself home" if I'd been unfortunate enough to have such sensitive skin.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cardinal* 
YES YES YES.
Go to the One Step Ahead website and go to the safety part of the products. Holy cow. i never realized how much I "Need" according to these people. Now, I will state that some special needs children might need certain products. I am not an idiot. But a perfectly healthy, developmentally sound 2 year old does not need a helmet to walk around the house in. Am I crazy or is this getting out of control? I am glad safety products exist today. Certainly we have tremedously improved the safety of children over the years with new inventions like door handle guards, but do we really need all these gizmos and contraptions?









: SOO What I was ggoing to post. What happened to the good ol days of yard darts and water wiggles?


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## lost&foundmom (May 23, 2007)

Things have gotten way out of control. I had the most wonderful childhood. My young friends and I would ride our bikes on the shoulder of a highway a mile to the lake and spend all day at the lake in the summer. My parents never worried because they had taught us to be responsible. I played outside all of the the time. Never wore a helmet. Yes I got hurt playing sometimes, but it sure was a blast.

Now, I have four little girls and it's summer, they are outside all of the time. Their legs are scratched and bruised and you know what?! They are happy and healthy and LOVE to play outside. They've all eaten dirt, and somehow managed to survive. They've all fallen while running around and managed to get back up (of course we gave loves and washed the owies). At the same time though, I'm home with them and keep an eye on them and have taught them about safety. Teach them and then let them soar!







:


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

I know that pain medications usually have side effects in the baby that tend to cause problems, which is why the epidural is suggested more frequently than a shot of nubain or demerol (it has less side effects for the baby, though nothing is free from side effects). Most anti-anxiety medications work by supressing your central nervous system, kind of like alcohol without the liver damage. My guess would be that they don't offer valium or anything like that because the side effects to babies are too risky.
too many parents gave up parenting -- and the law took over.

I do NOT like the legal safty -- outlawing toys, removing junjle gyms for playgrounds and so on

if more parents were active and interactive -- then the kids would still be safe while playing on "danerous" toys and the toys would still be around.

it all comes down to parenting -- choosieng to do so.

too many parents for too long have NOT been parents, ignoring theri kids then sueing when the kid is hurt playing with something that required adult supervisioon ...... so the "stuff" is gettng take away rather than the poor parents punished.

JMO

No I do not want my 3 yo on monkey bars alone, am i glad to be ther ewith him -- yes. so i am annoyed when the toys are taken away because for tooooo long toooooo many parents were toooooo lazy to be bothered to parent.


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

I voted for 'it's been taken too far'.

Just today, I took DD to the YMCA and they have a cafe room just for kids and parents with comfortable chairs all around the sides (with high tables so the kids can't reach your coffee







) and a soft play gated area in the middle. Usually DD plays inside the gated area but today there were 3 other kids there, a girl aged about 4, and two boys, roughly 6 and 8. They were running around outside the gated area (which is still enclosed within the kids room, so perfectly safe) so DD, who is 14 months and just started walking a few weeks ago, wanted to be near them and run around with them. I didn't hover at all, I only went to her if she was trying to pick up food off the floor or was about ready to topple a chair over or something. But I let her get run down a bit by the older kids and she fell on her hands or butt a few times but it made her even more determined to keep up with them and play and it made me feel really proud of her independence and that I didn't feel the need to intervene or direct her play in any way. It was just so fascinating watching what she made of the older kids and watching them play with her too.

Sorry for going a bit OT, but I guess my point is that I'm not a hoverer and I dont' think that makes me a bad parent, even as a parent of a young toddler, because as long as she's not hurt or hurting anyone else, she is learning very valuable skills and I value that so much.


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