# study that says spanking is great - rebuttals, anyone?



## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581882,00.html

Yikes.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Well, thanks to spanking--and yes, I mean just some minor swatting, nothing that causes bruising or welting--I am a nervous, neurotic, and extremely guarded individual with very little ability to make close connections with anyone, and especially not my parents not matter how hard they might try now that I'm an adult. I did volunteer as an EMT-Basic for a few years before I married and had kids, but wanting to give to others is intrinsic to my personality. Being hit by my parents was not motivation in the slightest to help others. That idea doesn't even make sense. "Oh boy, I just got slapped by someone! I think I'll go work in a soup kitchen!" Huh?


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## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

I don't understand it either.... Does anyone know who sponsored this stuff? It just seems like someone with an agenda is behind this. I would love to know.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow... I read the title & didn't see the need to read much further...

I was spanked as a kid but rarely & not hard... I had lots of emotional problems in high school (not sure they were the direct result of spanking though!) and almost didn't graduate because of it. I have a nagging fear of my dad that even to this day is occasionally hard to supress even though we have a great relationship overall.

My DH was spanked harder and more often and he is truly afraid of his parents, particularly his dad... he even thought our DS would not be safe to stay there without us, ever... that's how badly it affected him.

As far as our "success", we do OK... we both have college degrees and jobs we hate and a mortgage we can barely afford... I do not feel either of us has yet lived up to our potential. And we're happy enough I suppose but I view that as a "no thanks to the spanking!" thing...


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## SparklingGemini (Jan 3, 2008)




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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

I wa spanked as a child and turned out okay.














I have issues with my parents now in my adulthood not related to spanking. Iin no way do I condone spanking or accept it in my life now. I don't see how anyone can "prove" its ever a positive discipline.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
I wa spanked as a child and turned out okay.














I have issues with my parents now in my adulthood not related to spanking.

See, this is me. My parents were verbally and emotionally abusive so the issues we have don't have anything to do with spanking...in fact, I would have taken a spanking over an hour long berating... even as a teen


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

that is just ridiculous


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

I wonder if it has to do with the person. I was spanked but it's not the reason I have relationship problems with my parents. My dh was spanked, punished, and so on and he actually respects his parents more. He said he did better in school and it was the reason he got only two points away from a perfect score on his SATs. He believe the discipline helped him and his younger siblings become better people.

I guess each person is different when it comes to how they feel after the way they were raised.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I hear that wives who are whipped are less likely to cheat on their husbands. . .


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I hear that wives who are whipped are less likely to cheat on their husbands. . .

Wow. Beatin into submission.. gross!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The study was done by a psychologist at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The college mission statement:

Quote:

Calvin College is a comprehensive liberal arts college in the Reformed tradition of historic Christianity. Through our learning, *we seek to be agents* of renewal in the academy, church, and society. We pledge fidelity to Jesus Christ, offering our hearts and lives to do God's work in God's world.

We offer education that is shaped by Christian faith, thought, and practice. We study and address a world made good by God, distorted by sin, redeemed in Christ, and awaiting the fullness of God's reign.
I have no problem with the idea of a reform tradition Christian college. However, the traditional view within that ideology is very pro-spanking, so in terms of 'rebutting' their research claim that spanking yields successful adults, I would say there is a possible conflict of interest...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Does the study say anything about how the non-spanked kids were disciplined? Or the other ways the spanked kids were disciplined?
That could definitely skew the results. It might be that the spanked kids had otherwise decent discipline, and were ok in spite of being spanked. And the non-spanked kids got no discipline, which could be a problem.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
Does the study say anything about how the non-spanked kids were disciplined? Or the other ways the spanked kids were disciplined?
That could definitely skew the results. It might be that the spanked kids had otherwise decent discipline, and were ok in spite of being spanked. And the non-spanked kids got no discipline, which could be a problem.

This.

There are all kinds of details missing from that article. Not to mention that just because a child volunteers their time or goes to college does not mean they are well adjusted or happy.

My definition of 'successful' probably varies greatly from theirs.

I call that non-article.


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## joanna0707 (Jan 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Funny Face* 

There are all kinds of details missing from that article. Not to mention that just because a child volunteers their time or goes to college does not mean they are well adjusted or happy.

My definition of 'successful' probably varies greatly from theirs.


ditto
very well said


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## midnightmommy (Apr 14, 2008)

I posted this under the title I'm gonna barf or something like that the other day. I live in GR and woke up to this as a headline on Sunday. Then the local tv station was asking about it on facebook. A ton of people agreed with it under the spare the rod spoil the child argument. It makes me feel just all fuzzy about my neighbors let me tell ya!

I was spanked at a kid, and it made me feel terrible! I didn't do well in school, and was spanked for it regularly. Apparently beating a child can't beat a learning disability out. My son isn't spanked and he is so far doing very well. I think they forget that you can have expectations for your kids without _hitting_ it home. Or perhaps it's because some parents that don't hit aren't as worried about their kids being perfect. I know that for my kids I don't care about college or degrees. I just want them to do something they love.


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## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for all the digging and answers!!!
What I find so horrible about this blurb is that many parents take that as affirmation to continue to spank or start spanking. It makes me so sick. Sure, DH and his siblings all went to college and are fine people and they were not only spanked but even beat, but I doubt they turned out fine cause of the physical violence they had to endure as children.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Funny Face* 
Not to mention that just because a child volunteers their time or goes to college does not mean they are well adjusted or happy.

I didn't even catch that! Do they really think that's the best way to tell if a person is happy and successful in life? jeez.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm probably not any help, but my rebuttal, in it's entirety, would be: "Oh, Fox News?







"


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## mrskingred (Aug 3, 2006)

Except that unfortunately I first picked up on this article in the UK papers (times, telegraph). Some of the comments are appalling.
I still think that this peer-reviewed study on the damage of spanking is the one to believe. http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-kids-iq.html


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## *Lisa* (Dec 19, 2002)

I'm a big fan of science (even when I don't necessarily like the results), but the article doesn't say anything about whether/where this research has been published. I'll hold off on judgment until I can read the actual published article in a decent, peer-reviewed publication.

I did look up the author, and she has her Ph.D. in developmental psychology from the University of Virginia. That's one of the most well-respected developmental programs in the country, so I suspect that she considered (and likely matched for) the amount of discipline that was given by both the spanking and non-spanking parents.

I do think it's sort of funny (in a weird way) to think that spanked kids might be happier and more successful but also less bright.

Even with all of that said, I'm still opposed to spanking in general, and I'm not at all tempted to start hitting my own children.


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## *Lisa* (Dec 19, 2002)

Okay, here's more:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2409510

It looks like the study has been rejected by two professional, peer-reviewed journals (though the reasons for that aren't given), and the author doesn't suggest that parents should start spanking.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

That was a vague and poorly written article. No where did it establish what boundries and rules were suggested enforced and why suddenly at age 6 does the so called amazing spank become useless. I have yet to met a kid over 6 that doesn't still require discipline regardless of parenting beliefs. I know for me I was spanked not often but it happened I grew up happy well adjusted blah blah blah but its wasn't the physical painful discipline it was just having a parent who set boundries was there for us spent time with us ect in "spite" of the occasional swats not becasue of them. Boundries and enforcing them is one thing spanking does NOT need to be in the picture for that.

Deanna


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

This "study" was REJECTED by two professional journals. The "professor" is from a small, private, religious institution. This is not a serious study... but it is generating a lot of media attention.

Trin.


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## gbutterflykissesm (Apr 8, 2008)

It's interesting that a lot of people say "I was spanked and I have issues with my parents now, but not related to the spanking." I would say the same thing, but when I stop and think about it, spanking is related to my parents' general parenting method, which was very much "You'll do as we say because we are your parents." When asked for an explanation for anything, their response was always "because we're your parents". I don't have a wonderful relationship with them now because of that mentality, and I think spanking is a part of that mentality sometimes. It is so interesting. Where I live now people LOVE to hit kids' hands to tell them no. I just think it's so wrong. I never heard of that before.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

I do not have a problem with this article. It could be true but I have not looked into the details of the actual study so I do not know. Honestly there is research to supports spanking or not spanking and I personally think parents ought to do what works for them and their children (within reason of course, no abuse should be allowed). While I am not for spanking I am also not for the government taking more authority away from parents. How much involvment do you want of the government in your life?

I find it hard to believe that if a child is raised in a functional, LOVING, balanced home that they will turn out "bad" (physically, mentally, emotionally whatever) just because of a few smacks or spankings as a young child. (I could see damage done if it were harsh, abusive, over done or carried on into adolescent-hood.) I mean people have spanked children in hundreds of different cultured over thousands of years and many, many people are still well-balanced and loving. I am not advocating spanking and I think it may be better not too but doing so does not = messed up children most of the time. Just as not spanking producing well-balanced people, most of the time.

Not that this is scientific in any way (







) but I and my 5 siblings were spanked as children and we are all well-balanced, loving people who ALL get along great with each other AND our parents. No drugs, alcohol issues, mental issues ect. Three are happily married with their own children, one is in the military fighting overseas, one is in university and one is graduating from high school this year. All at least have their high school diploma. Not bad odds according to today's stats.

AGain I am not trying to defend spanking but I think a more open-minded mindset can be a good thing in this issue.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Honestly there is research to supports spanking or not spanking and I personally think parents ought to do what works for them and their children (within reason of course, no abuse should be allowed)
(...)
AGain I am not trying to defend spanking but I think a more open-minded mindset can be a good thing in this issue.

I think it all depends on your definition of abuse. I know that the spanking most parents do can't truly compare with the severity of what you consider "abuse", but I believe that any spanking is abusive. Just like anything else, there are degrees of abuse. Occasional spanking is probably on the low end but I would still consider it abuse... just like I would consider hitting your spouse to be abuse (even if it was just once!)... I do realize that not everyone feels the same way but, that's my 2 cents.

That's also why I find this article not only ridiculous but also pointless. Who cares how well-adjusted spanked kids are? It shouldn't matter because it shouldn't be done. I don't see lots of studies about how successful & happy women are after they've been hit a few times by their partner... or whether kicking your dog makes him happier & more obedient...


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## SimplyRochelle (Feb 21, 2007)

First of all, it's FOX NEWs...when is the last time anything remotely truthful came on their channel or website.

Secondly, there was a study that came out during the past few months that indicated that children who are spanked tend to have lower IQs. So many they are happier because they are just more ignorant? Ignorance is bliss?


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimplyRochelle* 
Secondly, there was a study that came out during the past few months that indicated that children who are spanked tend to have lower IQs. So many they are happier because they are just more ignorant? Ignorance is bliss?


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Here's a great rebuttal: Adults who spank small children are bullies, who need to work on their anger issues, and learn that hitting is wrong. Adults who spank their children, but cringe at those who hit their dogs are hippocrites. Spanking as a last resort is done out of parental flustration and loss of control. Spanking as a first option is lazy parenting. Children who are spanked, will continue the tradition. Children who are hit hard enough (by accident, or on purpose) will do anything in their power not to be like their parents and are at high risk of developing emotional trauma which lasts a lifetime. Parents who feel the urge to hit a child, need counseling, or to be hit by someone, or something bigger than them.. so they understand what they will be doing to a small, and helpless child .


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I'm probably not any help, but my rebuttal, in it's entirety, would be: "Oh, Fox News?







"









:


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## KatWozBlue (Dec 21, 2009)

Its interesting that they chose volunteerism as a sign to well adjusted children. I have an MPA and my research was on instilling values in children that will encourage them to be more engaged, i.e. volunteer, reach out, etc in the future. Nowhere was how a child was disciplined a factor. In short, families that volunteered together taught their kids that it was something important and those kids were significantly more likely to do it in the future, well adjusted or not. Also, children of college educated parents and children of religious parents were also more likely to volunteer. However, I don't see the connection to spanking at all.

Now, I don't spank, we don't believe in it, however I was spanked and absolutely have no problems with my parents doing so, but I think that studies like this gloss over the bigger picture, it is not as simple as they are making it out to be and they are giving parents justification to teach their children how to be engaged citizens by laying a hand on them which just doesn't make sense.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
This "study" was REJECTED by two professional journals. The "professor" is from a small, private, religious institution. This is not a serious study... but it is generating a lot of media attention.

Trin.

Yes, and hyped on FOX. That's all they are... no substance, much like the study itself.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWozBlue* 
Its interesting that they chose volunteerism as a sign to well adjusted children. I have an MPA and my research was on instilling values in children that will encourage them to be more engaged, i.e. volunteer, reach out, etc in the future. Nowhere was how a child was disciplined a factor. In short, families that volunteered together taught their kids that it was something important and those kids were significantly more likely to do it in the future, well adjusted or not. Also, children of college educated parents and children of religious parents were also more likely to volunteer. However, I don't see the connection to spanking at all.

Now, I don't spank, we don't believe in it, however I was spanked and absolutely have no problems with my parents doing so, but I think that studies like this gloss over the bigger picture, it is not as simple as they are making it out to be and they are giving parents justification to teach their children how to be engaged citizens by laying a hand on them which just doesn't make sense.

That's very interesting.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

Another issue with the "study" is that the researcher assessed how successful discipline methods were by interviewing and observing teenagers. I knew a lot of teenagers growing up that would have made spanking look good. They were heavily involved in church and through their church involved in volunteer work. And they had controlling parents, who were still controlling at age 18. And then they left the house and went to college, and without the fear of punishment, no longer looked quite so successful. I think following these kids after they leave the house might paint a different picture.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I feel bad for all the spanked kids that result from this stuff.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I raised my kids for 10 years in the South. It was rare to find a family that never, ever spanked. That said, most of the kids were great. Most of the families were great.... with the exception that most of them were Republican.


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## fustian (Sep 24, 2009)

It's difficult to rebut directly without having read the paper itself. However, the fact that it hasn't been printed in any peer-reviewed context raises serious doubts as to its validity.

That having been said, her data could well show a correlation between spanking and volunteerism. Correlation is not causation. There could be any number of reasons why the children in this particular population had such a correlation. Without further knowledge of how she selected her study population it would be hard to speculate.

Of course, this is the difficulty with all such studies. I think it would be facile to point at any one parenting practice (unless done in an extreme fashion) and say that that resulted in outcome X for all children.

Is anybody else disturbed by the fact that she notes that these results do not hold true for teenagers who are *still being spanked*? Creepy.


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/boos...anking-iq.html

"Spanking lows a child's IQ"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/16...ing/index.html

"Spanking detrimental to children, study says"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So, my understanding inclues:

1. They specifically only talked to kids who reported that the spanking was not severe, so parents who lost control during spanking, which I think happens pretty often, are not taken into consideration.

2. There hasn't been a large enough group of kids who weren't spanked long enough to do a survey before this, and maybe not even at the point of this survey. These are kids who were raised just when not spanking was even really introduced on a large scale. Almost everyone was spanked before these kids. And some people, when they decided not to spank, weren't sure just what to do and could have been inconsistant, and/or could have replaced spanking with other kinds of punishment which are also very damaging (like shaming, emotional abuse, guilt, etc.) So just because the kids weren't spanked doesn't mean they were parented with any planning, consistancy, or in a gentle manner. You can't limit group A (spankers) by choosing only spankers whose children felt they didn't go overboard, but then not also limit the comparitive group, group B (non-spankers) to make sure they're also parents whose children felt they didn't go overboard.

3. This was done by Calvin College. If you do some research about the church behind this college, I think you'll find why they'd want to do a study that found that spanking is okey-dokey. I'm not putting down religion, or even this one. I just have family in this church and know how this church's governing body feels about parental control, obedience, discipline, and specifically spanking.

4. It was also reported by FOX, and ditto to the above.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

It had to be Fox News.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

DP's response was basically:
Who cares if a study says it's good? It's still hitting kids, and that's not right.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
Does the study say anything about how the non-spanked kids were disciplined? Or the other ways the spanked kids were disciplined?

That could definitely skew the results. It might be that the spanked kids had otherwise decent discipline, and were ok in spite of being spanked. And the non-spanked kids got no discipline, which could be a problem.









There are just SO many other factors that don't get considered. It can't be a spanking = healthy kids equation, because that doesn't explain almost all the inmates my Dh deals with every day.

I'm not saying there's a "right way" to administer corporal punishment, but I do think that in spanking homes there can be other parts of the parenting and family dynamic that mitigate the damage of spanking, beliefs that allow children to grow up healthy in spite of it, etc. And in non-spanking homes -- well, that can cover homes that are permissive to the point of neglect, where the parents are absent, non-responsive, or to wrapped up in their own needs to bother with their children's needs. Or the parents may be abusive in other ways, or overbearing, or smothering... all without striking their children in any way. There can be aspects of life in a nonspanking home that are just as damaging as spanking can be.

Gentle discipline has to be part of a larger philosophy of responsively meeting children where they're at, respecting their journey and their individuality, and helping them get to where they're going with guidance and patience.


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## Lilyoftheincas13 (Nov 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I hear that wives who are whipped are less likely to cheat on their husbands. . .

Whatever keeps 'em in submission.









In fact, I'm a proponent of a good beat-down whenever one feels irritated. Would have calmed me a great deal yesterday when I had to wait for a stranger to come out of the coffeehouse and move her car from blocking my driveway so I could park.

No? That doesn't work?


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

Here's another rebuttal article.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...iclekey=105579


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