# I have HAD IT!



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I swear, these two are trying to kill me.

This morning they asked for popcorn. Fine, I made them some popcorn. A little bit later I got into the shower. Mid shower I hear screaming, and they both come barreling in crying and yelling about the other one. Then they run out (leaving the door open of course). Then I hear ds1 yelling that ds2 dumped popcorn all over the floor on purpose. Then ds2 comes into my shower, picks up my clean folded towels that are sitting on the toilet, and dumps them on the floor. I tell him to pick them up, but he ignores me and runs out of the room.

I get done with my shower (which took all of 5 minutes), and spend 20 minutes making ds2 pick up the popcorn. I proceed to try to get dressed.

I come out into the living room just in time to see ds2 cowering by the couch as ds1 walks nonchalantly in circles around the coffee table, coming oh so close to ds2 as he goes by. I am confused for a minute, and then see that ds1 is carrying a steak knife, silently threatening ds2 with it everytime he walked by. I was furious!

I took the knife, and told him how dangerous that was, that he is never to use knives that way (which he knows), and apparently made the mistake of saying "you're not to touch these knives without my permission." At which point, looking straight at me, he reaches up and touches the knife. I lost my freaking mind and screamed for him to get in his room because I was afraid I was going to strangle him.

It's really bugging me that after acting like this we are going to go over to my inlaws' house tonight so they can be showered with gifts. I feel like canceling Christmas.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

My dd always goes crazy around Christmas. I think it is a really common response to all of the anticipation and excitement.

I would have totally freaked out about the knife incident, too. That kind of thing really pushes my buttons!


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i don't have any advice or words of wisdom (i'm sure in hindsight you can think of other ways the situation could have played out by yourself). i just wanted to commensurate and say i have totally been there. even though the scenarios i've experienced aren't the same (no knives yet), my reaction to my kids has been identical at times. big hugs to you. i hope this day gets better for you!!!!


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

I know I feel horrible when I lose it like that, but in this situation, I think it was totally justified. Using knives to threaten a sibing (or ANYONE) is so far beyond normal behavior that I would probably impose some other consequences also, but getting him to his room so I don't act in rage would be step 1.

If he is supposed to go to inlaws tonight for presents, that would be the first thing to go. I would take the younger one to the inlaws and stay home with the knife-weilding child. (or, if there is no partner to split up with, drop off the younger one at the in-laws and return home with the older child).

If he did that IRL, he could spend years in jail. I think something along the lines of a formal, written apology (similar to reparations) and some time spent doing chores or something unfun would be in order. This isn't just being disrespectful, this could easily have life threatening consequences if he did it to the wrong person (because they might not just sit there being intimidated, they would be justified in using like force to defend themselves)

I would probably also consider counseling for the kids. Threatening to kill or maim your siblings is not normal and should not be treated as such. Living in mortal fear of your older sibling is not normal.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

The fact that he threatened with a knife, and did so systematically, is a HUGE red flag. I'd call your ped and ask about getting a behavioral consult.

It's one thing to grab a random item and threaten a sibling with it (which is stiill wrong, but within the range of expected childhood behavior). But to go into the kitchen, seek out a knife, and use it to threaten/terrorize the sibling, and then to taunt YOU by touching the knife after being told not to--that's a screaming red flag for behavior.

Hugs to you--not an easy situation of any kind.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i just wanted to mention something. i have 3 older sisters. we are all a year apart. growing up, my sister debbie and i fought on & off a lot. once she took a knife and put it under the bathroom door (where i had locked myself away from her)...she was sliding the knife back and forth under the door & TERRIFYING ME! (i was in 4th or 5th grade???). i was screaming for my mom, etc. she got in big trouble for that. she was older than your son, but i wanted to reassure you that she did grow up to be normal. she is happily married with 4 children and turned out just fine. i'm not saying you shouldn't talk to the ped....definitely it's worth addressing and not ignoring! i just wanted to let you know my sister did something similar to me and she's A-okay.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I come out into the living room just in time to see ds2 cowering by the couch as ds1 walks nonchalantly in circles around the coffee table, coming oh so close to ds2 as he goes by. I am confused for a minute, and then see that ds1 is carrying a steak knife, silently threatening ds2 with it everytime he walked by.

To me this sounds very much like bullying behavior. And I think you've posted before about difficulties with your older son being aggressive toward your younger son. I think these are very serious issues, and that it would be a good idea to seek a consultation with a child psychologist (particularly if aggression has been an ongoing problem to which you haven't found a durable solution). It is possible to find ways of effectively addressing such aggressive behavior, and creating a more peaceful atmosphere in your home. But with some kids, it does take some outside help to do it. And in suggesting you get some help, I'm not suggesting that your kids won't grow up to be just fine--I'm sure they will. But this is serious behavior, and it couldn't hurt to seek out some help in effectively addressing it especially since it sounds like it is really causing stress for both you and your younger child (and is likely stressful for your oldest as well).

eta I say all this as the mother of a child with a history of chronic and escalating verbal and physical aggression toward siblings, so of course I am seeing your brief post through the lens of my experience. We got professional help, discovered that our child's behavior was due to underlying issues, learned to address those issues, and saw great improvement. Things in our home are so much more peaceful these days, even though life is far from perfect. And I really want to encourage you to see things from your younger child's point of view. It can be really frightening to live with an aggressive older sibling, and that stress can cause the younger child to act out as well. It can be hard to take that step of getting help, but it can also be so very worth it.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

As infuriated as I was, I don't think there are any signs of out-of-the-range-of-normal behavior issues with ds1. One of the reasons I was so shocked is that he is Mr. Safety Guy - he is the one to NEVER play with knives, to come running to get me if another child did. I have no idea how this came about, but he has been asking a lot lately about what happens if you get in a car accident, what determines if you die or not, what does it feel like to get shot, etc.

I was downstairs doing laundry about 15 minutes after this happened, while ds1 was still in his room. He came downstairs and told me that he didn't think he should be allowed to go to get presents tonight (I hadn't threatened him with this or mentioned it to him at all). We talked about how incredibly dangerous what he did was, and he promised to never do anything like that again. We'll see what happens. Oh, and he kept trying to tell me that he was touching the SCISSORS that are in the knife block, not the knives, when I was telling him to never touch the knives again. (Insert roll eyes smilie here.)

Between ds1 pushing the limits and ds2 completely ignoring me I'm about to lose my mind.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Quote:

As infuriated as I was, I don't think there are any signs of out-of-the-range-of-normal behavior issues with ds1
I have a child who had rage issues. We've gone to child psychs and behavioralists, and I have a sister who is a college professor in Child Development.

A 7 year old who knowingly searches out a sharp steak knife to use as a weapon of intimidation against a 4 yo is acting outside the range of normal.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gurumama* 
I have a child who had rage issues. We've gone to child psychs and behavioralists, and I have a sister who is a college professor in Child Development.

A 7 year old who knowingly searches out a sharp steak knife to use as a weapon of intimidation against a 4 yo is acting outside the range of normal.

I agree with this. I'd get help.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_If he is supposed to go to inlaws tonight for presents, that would be the first thing to go. I would take the younger one to the inlaws and stay home with the knife-weilding child. (or, if there is no partner to split up with, drop off the younger one at the in-laws and return home with the older child).

If he did that IRL, he could spend years in jail. I think something along the lines of a formal, written apology (similar to reparations) and some time spent doing chores or something unfun would be in order. This isn't just being disrespectful, this could easily have life threatening consequences if he did it to the wrong person (because they might not just sit there being intimidated, they would be justified in using like force to defend themselves)

I would probably also consider counseling for the kids. Threatening to kill or maim your siblings is not normal and should not be treated as such. Living in mortal fear of your older sibling is not normal._

Me too. I would take this kind of behavior *very* seriously, even if you think it's not within his normal range to act in this way and he's Mr. Safety. I would also look at increasing my supervision of him and really childproofing the house (again) so that your younger dc can feel safe. I'm not one to cry "counseling" at the drop of a hat (I've worked in the mental health field for over 20 years and I know it can be overused and abused), but I would conservatively say that it seems this should be addressed, both by having some serious consequences at home and seeking some input from a MH professional.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gurumama* 
I have a child who had rage issues. We've gone to child psychs and behavioralists, and I have a sister who is a college professor in Child Development.

A 7 year old who knowingly searches out a sharp steak knife to use as a weapon of intimidation against a 4 yo is acting outside the range of normal.

I couldn't agree more. I think you need to step back and look at this objectively. Kids with this level of behavior issues often need professional intervention. There are people who specialize in these sorts of issues and can really help us parents who are dealing with behaviors that are beyond the bounds of typical behavior.

You need guidance...a lot of parents with special needs kids do. Typical parenting methods just aren't affective on their own if your kid is wired differently. There is no shame in it, really. It is just different.

I would encourage you to post this in special needs and see the responses. There are a lot of parents that deal with mental illness and severe behavior disorders and would probably be able to offer a lot more effective support and "been there, done that" type commiseration.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Again, I agree with previous posters that threatening a sibling with a knife is out of the range of normal behavior. At the very least, it's extremely important for you to take a step back and take a good, hard, objective look at your child's behavior and behavior patterns. And it's very important for you to look at this from the point of view of your 4 year old, who is on the receiving end of this threatening behavior. Your younger child needs to be able to feel both physically and emotionally safe in his home, he needs you to make that happen.

And ask yourself: if he threatened a child who is not a member of your family, would it be considered normal? If he did this to a friend, at someone else's house? At school? It can be difficult to be objective about aggression between our own children, so it can be important to ask if we'd think it was normal for them to treat someone else's child in the same way.

Here is an article on sibling abuse, which I urge you to read even if you are very convinced that the behavior is normal. It can't hurt to read, to just _consider_ the possibility that you may need to seek help or change your intervention. Worst case, you discover you need to seriously consider seeking help. Best case, it's reassuring.http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Pub...s/PM1478X8.pdf

Quote:

Characteristics of sibling abuse
*Physical:* Physical abuse may involve hitting, biting,
slapping, shoving, and punching; tickling to
excess; and injurious or life-threatening
behavior such as choking or being shot with a
BB gun.
*Emotional*: This includes teasing, name calling, belittling,
ridiculing, *intimidating*, annoying, and
provoking. Children also destroy personal
possessions or torture and kill pets to get an
emotional response from their victim. *(Parents,
although they dislike emotional abuse, usually
excuse it as sibling rivalry. They mistakenly
accept this mistreatment as normal childhood
behavior.)*
Also, Barbara Coloroso has an excellent book called The Bullied, The Bully and The Bystander. In it she describes 3 markers of bullying: imbalance of power (the bully is bigger, older, stronger or in some other way more powerful than the victum), intent to harm (the bully intends to inflict emotional and/or physical pain; expects the act to hurt; and takes pleasure in witnessing the hurt. this is the intent behind threats, threats are not accidental.), and threat of further aggression (it can be implied threat, threat based on past experience: both parties know aggression will probably happen again).


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I rarely post here but have gone through that a few times in various manners over the years.

First thing, he wasn't threatening as far as I can tell. He was doing it for reaction (his brothers and yours) and he got it. Second, you gave one great reaction to which I bet he's quite satisfied over. In this exact situation in my home, after he touched the knife after you told him not to, it'd be time out (or privledge loss, whatever gets the point better). No screaming (out loud, in my head I sure would be), just "fine, you sit here. 20 minutes. next time you disobey like that, it'll be an hour" (not that I'd make them sit for an hour, but they sure think I would). Staying outwardly calm is so important. Kids, and IMO especially boys, love to test, test, test and see what reactions they can get. The louder mom gets, the more they test


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

It is impossible to say over the internet if someone has a child with a definite behavior problem that warrants professional help. Only the parent, who is there seeing everything in context, can make that call.

I will say that growing up, it was considered typical for kids (especially boys, and especially brothers) to do things like you described. I was/am also a voracious reader, and the protagonists of almost any boy oriented classic novel describes feigned violence and outward shows of intimidation with weapons as typical play between younger boys. Nobody gets hurt, nobody is physically injured, but great satisfaction is drawn from games where someone is made to beleive they will be hurt, by someone else who struts around showing off a weapon and acting tough, teasing as though they might use it. In fact when I read the book "Protecting the Gift" the author devotes an entire chapter to the phenomenon of boys having a strong attraction to weapons, and the need for parents to recognize this and be realistic in their decision to keep real weapons in the home.

What I do see from the post sounds like the game with the knife was a show-off thing. It didn't sound violent at all, but rather that he drew satisfaction from the reaction--like he picked the knife knowing it would get a big reaction in his game...not because he had a deep seated desire to hurt anybody. Especially where you said 'don't touch the knife' and he looked right at you and did....see right there, something about that seems significant. Like you two are not reading each other and getting connection.

If I were to suggest counseling I wonder if it would be more helpful for you to have someone help process these issues. You sound frustrated and depleted, like you are running on empty without confidence in what approach to take here. He is pushing your buttons and it is working--you are reacting and getting drained in the process. I think you might see change faster if you gave yourself time to focus on *you*.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
It is impossible to say over the internet if someone has a child with a definite behavior problem that warrants professional help. Only the parent, who is there seeing everything in context, can make that call.

I will say that growing up, it was considered typical for kids (especially boys, and especially brothers) to do things like you described. I was/am also a voracious reader, and the protagonists of almost any boy oriented classic novel describes feigned violence and outward shows of intimidation with weapons as typical play between younger boys. Nobody gets hurt, nobody is physically injured, but great satisfaction is drawn from games where someone is made to beleive they will be hurt, by someone else who struts around showing off a weapon and acting tough, teasing as though they might use it. In fact when I read the book "Protecting the Gift" the author devotes an entire chapter to the phenomenon of boys having a strong attraction to weapons, and the need for parents to recognize this and be realistic in their decision to keep real weapons in the home.

What I do see from the post sounds like the game with the knife was a show-off thing. It didn't sound violent at all, but rather that he drew satisfaction from the reaction--like he picked the knife knowing it would get a big reaction in his game...not because he had a deep seated desire to hurt anybody. Especially where you said 'don't touch the knife' and he looked right at you and did....see right there, something about that seems significant. Like you two are not reading each other and getting connection.

If I were to suggest counseling I wonder if it would be more helpful for you to have someone help process these issues. You sound frustrated and depleted, like you are running on empty without confidence in what approach to take here. He is pushing your buttons and it is working--you are reacting and getting drained in the process. I think you might see change faster if you gave yourself time to focus on *you*.

I agree with this post, and with Elizawill. I could see my dd doing something like this. She would never actually hurt her brother with a knife, and she would NEVER even consider threatening any other child, but she might do it just for the reaction. If ds1 were truly, truly scared, she'd probably stop. They are very, very good friends, but they do fight and do mean things to each other. My sister and I did, too, and now she's incredibly gentle, kind, and very normal. Once she threw a fork at my head and it stuck in the wall about four inches from where I was sitting. She was very sorry, of course. I think the fact that he came and recognized what he had done is a good thing. I also think it's probably related to the season. Things are very stressful this time of year for kids.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_Nobody gets hurt, nobody is physically injured, but great satisfaction is drawn from games where someone is made to beleive they will be hurt, by someone else who struts around showing off a weapon and acting tough, teasing as though they might use it. In fact when I read the book "Protecting the Gift" the author devotes an entire chapter to the phenomenon of boys having a strong attraction to weapons, and the need for parents to recognize this and be realistic in their decision to keep real weapons in the home._

Seems that what you are saying here is a variation on "boys will be boys". That is troubling to me. It seems to me that it doesn't matter what any author says, it the parents' duty to decide for themselves what kind of household they want and what kind of behavior they will or won't tolerate, no matter the number or gender of their kids. I would argue that your assertion that no one getting hurt = no one getting injured is based on a false premise. People do *indeed* get hurt, sometimes very, very badly, even though there is no bodily injury.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
My sister and I did, too, and now she's incredibly gentle, kind, and very normal. Once she threw a fork at my head and it stuck in the wall about four inches from where I was sitting. She was very sorry, of course.


did we have same sister?? lol. seriously. i could list a "rap sheet" of offenses my sister did to me. now she's 40 and so embarrassed when i retell her torture stories! ha ha. revenge is sweet! jk.


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## Mrs. Cheerful Face (Apr 4, 2006)

Over here I'm out numbered four to one, so we invented something called "Divide and Conquer." Any time I need to do something private, ie; phone convo, shower, special project, I put each one in a seperate room, with a small quiet activity. Under no circumstances are they allowed to leave their location until D&C is offically over, seriously, their shirt had better be in flames if they interupt my shower time!!! I pay them $$$ or in sweets for a good D&C time. Fool proof! Even the 4yo can manage! We had several practice sessions to get the hang of it. Your darn right, I'm not above bribery, free enterprize ladies and gents! Please don't flame me, I don't leave them there for ever and ever, and sweet treats are severely rationed due to health reasons. Very compassionate and nuturing, plus... no knives!!! Try it!


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
i just wanted to mention something. i have 3 older sisters. we are all a year apart. growing up, my sister debbie and i fought on & off a lot. once she took a knife and put it under the bathroom door (where i had locked myself away from her)...she was sliding the knife back and forth under the door & TERRIFYING ME! (i was in 4th or 5th grade???). i was screaming for my mom, etc. she got in big trouble for that. she was older than your son, but i wanted to reassure you that she did grow up to be normal. she is happily married with 4 children and turned out just fine. i'm not saying you shouldn't talk to the ped....definitely it's worth addressing and not ignoring! i just wanted to let you know my sister did something similar to me and she's A-okay.

um, me too







i was using the knife to unlock the bathroom door where my little brother had locked himself and putting the knife through the crack in the door.

and i THINK i turned out okay







i mean, i am in the gd forum, right?


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

The recommendation for professional intervention isn't based on just this post, but we can't talk about other posts per the UA. IIRC, this isn't the first out of the ordinary behavior, it is just the first one with an incident that can't be laughed off easily. (and it is possible I am remembering wrong, but I don't have time to search right this minute, but I seem to recall other posts by this poster about her first son)

I know, it is hard to come to terms with the idea that your child might need professional help. I REALLY understand that. However, I think in this case, it is warranted.

It is important to know that, although some behavior is the result of ineffective parenting, some kids really do come wired differently, and it is no fault of the parent. The parent can learn more effective ways of managing the behaviors, and teaching the child to manage behaviors, but it isn't going to come from normal parenting books or parents of typically developing kids. They can have the best of intentions, but some people just don't respond the way typical people do and a professional can help really make a positive difference. (even if it is just to support the parent more, because parenting a child who has organic behavior issues is just a whole different level of challenging and can leave you feeling totally overwhelmed and depressed)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
did we have same sister?? lol. seriously. i could list a "rap sheet" of offenses my sister did to me. now she's 40 and so embarrassed when i retell her torture stories! ha ha. revenge is sweet! jk.

Sounds like it! And we're so close, now! And yes, the guilt. Bwahhaahaa!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Characteristics of sibling abuse
Physical: Physical abuse may involve hitting, biting,
slapping, shoving, and punching; tickling to
excess; and injurious or life-threatening
behavior such as choking or being shot with a
BB gun.
Emotional: This includes teasing, name calling, belittling,
ridiculing, intimidating, annoying, and
provoking. Children also destroy personal
possessions or torture and kill pets to get an
emotional response from their victim. (Parents,
although they dislike emotional abuse, usually
excuse it as sibling rivalry. They mistakenly
accept this mistreatment as normal childhood
behavior.)
I have to say, I did quite a few things on this list to my little sister and I'm a pretty normal person. I remember my best friend and I when we were about 12 hanging a noose around her little sister's cabbage patch doll and hanging it out the window to torture her. I honestly don't know any siblings who don't do a lot of these things to each other. (Hurting animals - that's another story, and I don't know anyone who has done that. Ds1 is the most tenderhearted, animal loving kid I've seen - he tries to rescue flies that are dying on our windowsill.)

I'm really not in denial mode - there is nothing violent about ds1. And yes, the knife thing was exactly for show, for a reaction. I would never worry that he would actually hurt ds2. (And the kitchen with the knife block was right there - he didn't go searching through the house for it. I was shocked, however, by his lack of safety sense given how uptight he usually is about it.) Plus, over the years he has had numerous developmental evaluations due to a previous speech delay, and there has never been anything other than positive comments made by any of the evaluators. He's never been violent towards other children, or shown any bullying behavior to other kids. So yes, I do believe that his behavior falls well within "normal" sibling rivalry. In fact, ds2 is often the one to get physical first.

My frustration is not being able to take a damn shower without the fighting and the messes and the craziness.


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## sept15lija (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
did we have same sister?? lol. seriously. i could list a "rap sheet" of offenses my sister did to me. now she's 40 and so embarrassed when i retell her torture stories! ha ha. revenge is sweet! jk.

Same here! My sister did the knife thing and so many other things to me, I could tell stories for hours. She is now a very normal mom of two who happens to live six houses down from me because we're the best of friends! And my oldest sister, who did the same kind of things to her, also lives around the corner - all of us are each other's support system. I never would have believed it 15 years ago.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Seems that what you are saying here is a variation on "boys will be boys". That is troubling to me. It seems to me that it doesn't matter what any author says, it the parents' duty to decide for themselves what kind of household they want and what kind of behavior they will or won't tolerate, no matter the number or gender of their kids. I would argue that your assertion that no one getting hurt = no one getting injured is based on a false premise. People do *indeed* get hurt, sometimes very, very badly, even though there is no bodily injury.
I was stating an observation that those types of games are sufficiently observed and documented to give pause to any suggestion which unilaterally suggests young siblings inventing these games be rendered outside the realm of 'normal' or 'typical' behavior.

I agree that parents have to decide what is and is not acceptable behavior in a family. Knowing a behavior may be typical does not mean the behavior is acceptable.

My point is that parents can hamper discipline success by having too narrow a concept of possible behaviors they may encounter at each age and stage. As a result they have a draining emotional reaction to intense situations when they happen--the parent will react out of a place of fear, rather than respond with a clear understanding of the child in front of them.

Anyway, none of this was intended as a response to the OP--I already responded there. I just wanted to respond to this last post that addressed me.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Hmm, I can think of all kinds of abuse I visited on my poor sister. I remember chasing her around the house with scissors, pushing her off a dock (so I could save her and be a hero,) and once trying to hold her under the water till she passed out. Oh and I smashed her in the face in church and gave her a scar.

It sounds to me like the OPs son was getting a thrill out of pushing people's buttons, not like he was being homicidal. I'd have taken away a privileged, or maybe given an extra chore.


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