# The "expecations" thread directed at maya44



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I'm finding this thread quite interesting as this sort of thing has been a topic of discussion (and disagreement!) between me and DH recently. I didn't want to hijack, so I started my own thread.

I also do not punish, and simply make my requests and express disappointment when DD does not comply. When something turns into a problem, I will try some sort of positive reinforcement/behavior modification thing - you know, sticker charts, marble jars, etc. DH believes that we have made it too easy for DD to get away with not listening to us. He feels that there is simply no motivation for her to listen, since there are really no negative consequences when she does not listen. He is right to a certain degree - very often all that happens is she is faced with our disappointment, and she seems to feel bad about it, but it doesn't result in any change in her behavior. On the other hand, not listening often has natural consequences, since it's often a dawdling issue and she will wind up missing out on things because she uses up time. But even this does not seem to motivate her to try harder. She just sort of accepts it.

My gut instinct is to disagree with DH because my basic philosophy of parenting refutes the widely-held mainstream belief that misbehavior in children needs to be met with parent-imposed negative consequences, otherwise you're "letting them get away with it." The problem is that I have nagging worries that he's right - not so much about needing to impose negative consequences, but that our child as an individual just needs more motivation than pleasing mom and dad to behave. And it's weird, because she is a very sensitive and caring child and truly cares if she upsets us. But for some reason she just doesn't seem to "get it" that when mom or dad asks or tells her to do something simple, she actually HAS to do it.

I'm sort of stumped. If DH had his way, we would be docking her allowance or TV or whatever, not necessarily for everything and perhaps after trying other stuff first, and I'm just having a hard time agreeing with him on that. But we do need to do something, because she isn't listening well enough by our standards, and we are often frustrated with our otherwise delightful daughter.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
The problem is that I have nagging worries that he's right - not so much about needing to impose negative consequences, but that our child as an individual just needs more motivation than pleasing mom and dad to behave. And it's weird, because she is a very sensitive and caring child and truly cares if she upsets us. But for some reason she just doesn't seem to "get it" that when mom or dad asks or tells her to do something simple, she actually HAS to do it.

I'm sort of stumped. If DH had his way, we would be docking her allowance or TV or whatever, not necessarily for everything and perhaps after trying other stuff first, and I'm just having a hard time agreeing with him on that. But we do need to do something, because she isn't listening well enough by our standards, and we are often frustrated with our otherwise delightful daughter.










Well nothing (not even spanking) is going to make a child do whatever you want each and every time. Kids are just not built like this.

For me, I believe that in a way punishment actually allows a child to get off the hook by "paying" for their "crime." To me its better to have it hanging over their head.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Well you know that we do punishment, we try natural consequence punishment, but sometimes that just does not work, at least for us.

I do think though if you are stating that she HAS to do the things you ask her to then you sort of have to have a way to make her. Just being disappointed in her is very soon not going to be even a little helpful, even though she is a kind child. Just like too much yelling can lead to not caring that the parent is yelling, just giving your parents a little disappointment is soon not going to be any motivation at all if you are always disappointed. Does that make sense.

We have an ongoing chart system, sometimes we use it all the time and sometimes months go by that we don't need it. It's called bad prickly and warm fuzzy. There are three strikes ( pricklies) and you lose your privileges. If you want more info I can tell you about it. If the only behaviour you are trying to change is the not listening she will have 3 chances every day to listen the first time. My boys took to this system VERY quickly, most days after that first prickly they are as good as gold, they do NOT want to lose privileges. I also pick the thing they love the most to take away, this way they know I mean business. So if her favorite thing you do every day is read at bedtime, ride her bike, go for a walk, or watch a show, if she loses that even one time you will have made a huge inpression. We told the boys when we started this, we love you and we need you to behave, we don't spank but since you are not listening I cannot think of another way to make you understand so this is what we are going to do. They were with the program very quickly and they try very hard to earn as many warm fuzzies as they can. Once they earn so many warm fuzzies they get a prize, they get to cook with me or pick a game to play or something like that.

Good luck and let me know if you want more info on the system. We have had great success


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
And it's weird, because she is a very sensitive and caring child and truly cares if she upsets us. But for some reason she just doesn't seem to "get it" that when mom or dad asks or tells her to do something simple, she actually HAS to do it.

So, right away i'm seeing a contradiction here. you're saying that you want her to do X because it will please you, then you are saying that she HAS to do X.

ime, and my child is still young, the whole "do it or i'll be disappointed" thing only works in the absence of any power struggle. once you trigger a kid's defenses, they pick themselves over pleasing you every time.

it woudl help if you gave some specific examples,but i thnk your child is old enough to help participate in some problem solving. so you might say "we have a problem. your room is messy and you have problems finding things so we run late every morning and that makes me frustrated...what are some things we can do to help you keep your room tidier?". then make a list of all your suggestions and hers. write them all down, no matter how silly. then go through the list, veto the ones that simply aren't reasonable (to either of you), and mutually agree on one. you both sign it. giving her ownership of the solution will help her not feel like this is being "imposed' on her.

FWIW, we don't use punishment at all, nor any reward systems like stickers, priveleges etc. We do believe that children don't need these things to "do right". but it means that power struggles must be kept to a minimum.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaBug*
I do think though if you are stating that she HAS to do the things you ask her to then you sort of have to have a way to make her. Just being disappointed in her is very soon not going to be even a little helpful, even though she is a kind child. Just like too much yelling can lead to not caring that the parent is yelling, just giving your parents a little disappointment is soon not going to be any motivation at all if you are always disappointed. Does that make sense.


No. Not for us. I don't believe in reward systems at home. I don't reward that which needs to be done.

And expressing disapointment can be ennough. I don't know if for every child but for many. I have three dd's who prove it and they are 11, 9 and 8 and expressing disapointment when they have not met expectations has never "worn off" as an effective technique for dealing with them.


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

I agree with Piglet 68. I would be wary of relying on disappointment and encouraging your DD to please you all the time. This undermines her inner motivation which seem to be exactly the problem you are describing. It also takes the satisfaction and joy out of doing things for herself rather than for you. I recommend the book, "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline". It describes the dangers of encouraging your child to always please you, and teaches really effective alternatives.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

We don't use reward systems or punishments either, but we do use logical and/or natural consequences.

Very recently dd1 (age 6) was not willing to help me set the table for dinner. It is not a "chore" or requirement for her, but I would like for both she and her sister (age 3) to help, as part of the family. I'm not running a restaurant!

When she refused (politely, btw. She is not rude or loud about it.) I expressed my disappointment, but largely I let it go. Who knows? Everyone has days they don't feel like _doing_. I've certainly cancelled my plans to cook and called in a take out order before.

When it happened again I again expressed my disappointment and tried to pursue it with her further. She didn't have much of an explaination. Later in the evening I found I was not _inspired_ to help her clean her room when she requests it. Seemed like a natural consequence so I went with that feeling and explained it to her.

Seems a little bit like tit for tat. Maybe y'all will have a different take on it. I'm open to criticism. (if your gentle







)

ETA: Just to clarify, when I "expressed my disappointment" it was NOT "I'm disappointed in you" (good God, I could never day that!) it was "that is disappointing, I could really use some help getting dinner on the table."


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wilhemina*
Later in the evening I found I was not _inspired_ to help her clean her room when she requests it. Seemed like a natural consequence so I went with that feeling and explained it to her.

Seems a little bit like tit for tat. Maybe y'all will have a different take on it. I'm open to criticism. (if your gentle







)


I don't believe in parents doing a tit for tat kind of thing.

I think we can either teach our kids that they should only do things for people who are willing to do things for them, OR that we should always act in the right way no matter what others do. I choose the latter.

I guess the reason I am so comfortable with my "expressing disapointment" strategy is that I have absolutely seen it help develop feelings in them of inner motivation. They know that acting in a way that is wrong will cause a bad feeling within themselves and they seek to avoid that feeling!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Here: no rewards, no punishments (I do get angry, though), no tit-for-tat.

I'm uncomfortable with the whole "I'm disappointed in you" theory. Kids don't hear "I'm disappointed in you," they hear "I don't love you." And, well, it seems controlling to me, "Do what I want you to do or I will withdraw my approval of you."

How about just saying something like "I get really tired when I have to do all the cleaning?" Or "It makes me feel angry when you do that."

Children also need explanations. They don't learn much from a simple "that disappoints me." Explaining is not equivalent to negotiating or talking too much. Children need to learn why certain behaviors are not desirable, to us, in our opinions (Whew! Trying to get around the word unacceptable!). So when kid hits you can explain that it hurts, that it is "wrong," that it makes child feel bad inside, that it makes victim feel bad, etc. and that you and he or she don't want that. There are different categories of explanations, but I can't remember what they're all called. Basically, you can provide a moral explanation (right and wrong -- not my cup of tea), a practical one, an empathetic one or one where you focus on the kid's own inner desire to please.

Also, I have a question about all these expectations: what are they, besides self-respect, respect for others, non-violence? Are you all talking about cleaning up?


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Since I posted on this thread I have really re-thought the small situation I described. Here is where I am:

1. I think it was okay to express my disappointment in the situation. I would never say I was disappointed in HER for not helping set the table. I don't like the idea that she should behave to please me (for many reasons) - and have tried not to parent that way. However, I think it is fair to express my emotions gently and truthfully.

2. I don't like that I didn't help her clean her room and explained it was in part because she wouldn't help earlier in the evening. I knew right after I said it that it felt "tit for tat" and very unlike the way we relate in our family. Plus it was too harsh - she is really such a kind and responsible girl.

3. I do think it is reasonable to find a way to remind her, gently, that how we treat others teaches them how we like to be treated. We have ALL talked about this before in relation to other issues.

4. After talking with her further, I think she is a. testing to see what happens when she doesn't ask "how high" when Mom asks her to do something. b. trying to clarify just what are the expectations for her with regard to "chores."
We really don't have chore assignments in our family, we just all help out as is needed and we are able. But because of conversations with friends - or books? - she feels like she wants a chore list. We have agreed to think about this and meet together - the whole family - to discuss "chores."

Thanks for listening, mamas. I don't think I would have thought through this little episode so thoroughly if I hadn't posted here and had to put my actions and feelings into words.
Note to self: _must start that journal again!_


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think if she wants a chore list that is GREAT! She is taking ownership of the problem, recognizing within her self what might help her acheive her goal, and making a request of you to help her get that list. I think this is just super!









Parismaman: I agree the wording is very important. i never use "you" phrases when expressing disappointment. I make sure to just describe how I am feeling. And I don't overdo it. My point is not to make her feel guilty at all...my point is to describe how I am feeling.

I find that a useful strategy when I'm asking for something and the first response is "no", is to offer some help. I either get down and help them physically, or I will ask her what she needs me to do, how I can help her complete the task. This almost always works with my DD. On the rare occasion where she just says no, she doesn't want to do it. I respect that (if it is something she usually does without a problem) or express my feelings (if it's something we are working on, or something new).

posts like yours, maya, give me encouragement. it's working well for us so far, and my faith is that it will continue to do so.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think that I should make clear that when I say "expressing disapointment" I don't usually use those words. Instead I usually say something like "I don't like it when...."

I only have used the words "I am disapointed in you" a very, very few times. Maybe two or three with each child ever and then over something fairly major (like being mean to a friend or rude to an adult)


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Whoa, it's amazing how you can start a thread and it takes off in a direction you never intended for it to go. I find that often people read subsequent posts and ascribe those ideas to the OP when it was not actually the OP who said those things!

I never said I expect or encourage DD to please me and DH all the time. There is truly very little my daughter needs to do to please me, because she pleases me just by being herself! I am, however, *displeased* when she makes a poor choice about her behavior, and that this "natural consequence" alone is not enough motivation for her to make positive changes in her behavior.

And we certainly do not go around saying, "We're disappointed in you" all the time. It's more along the lines of, "I'm disappointed that you chose to fool around in the bathroom instead of brushing your teeth, because now there's no time for bedtime stories, and I really enjoy when we read together." Or, "I'm very surprised and disappointed that you wrote on your comforter with a marker, because you know that you are only supposed to write on paper and you have never done anything like that before, and now your comforter is ruined." There are always explanations, and we do not communicate that we are withdrawing our approval and certainly not our love.

Honestly, I have to say that I disagree with the whole idea of needing to tiptoe around words such as "unacceptable" or "disappointed" or even "wrong." The truth is, there ARE things that are wrong or unacceptable. My word of choice is usually "inappropriate," but I have no problem telling my child that she made the wrong choice. Being too fuzzy on right and wrong can cause a lot of problems, IMO. I really think that too many people are so terrified of damaging a child's self-esteem that they believe that they can never communicate to a child that he has done something wrong. My daughter has a pretty clear sense of right and wrong and when she does something wrong - which she does because she is 6 and still learning, not because she is "bad" - her conscience gets the better of her and she feels bad about it. Even Dr. Sears says that a child should feel right when he acts right, and vice versa. I'm not directing this at anyone here, it's just something that bugs me. I meet way too many kids who think that anything and everything they do is fine, simply because it was their choice to do it. But I'm going off on a tangent here...

Every child is different. It is great that maya44's children respond so well to her methods. I, however, am finding that similar methods do not work to change my child's problematic behaviors. Of course I understand that she is not perfect, but I feel it is my job to take those incidents of inappropriate behavior and use them as opportunities to teach her what is appropriate. And my child, as an individual, does not seems to be learning this well enough just through talking about it.

I don't see that I contradicted myself at all in my original post, but I did state that I was having ambivalent feelings and wanted to find a solution to a frustrating situation that would work, but would also be some sort of compromise between my philosophy and my husband's.

Mamabug, thanks for your suggestions. Suggestions were what I wanted!

Oh, and ParisMaman, I am not talking about cleaning up!







Mostly, my daughter is the Queen Dawdler and it can take ten requests just for her to follow me out of a store. Or she'll go upstairs to get ready for bed and unless I keep on top of her, twenty minutes will go by and she hasn't even gotten undressed. That sort of thing.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I think if she wants a chore list that is GREAT! She is taking ownership of the problem, recognizing within her self what might help her acheive her goal, and making a request of you to help her get that list. I think this is just super!










Thanks! Did I mention she is a kind and responsible kid?







Even if her mom flubbs up on occassion, she really is super.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
Whoa, it's amazing how you can start a thread and it takes off in a direction you never intended for it to go. I find that often people read subsequent posts and ascribe those ideas to the OP when it was not actually the OP who said those things!

Sorry if *I* took this thread on a tangent. I meant to explore the issue with a specific example, but it was late at night and...Well, just sorry if I misunderstood.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Thank you LunaMom. I realize that my ways might not be necessary and alot of ppl don't agree with them, but my boys are very well behaved and when the disappointment angle didn't work we also needed to go in another direction, gentle but firm. And I agree with you 100% that children need a clear idea of right and wrong and it is my job to help them understand it.

Good luck with whatever angle you try I hope it works out for you and your dd!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hey LunaMom, I hope I didn't offend. I wasn't trying to pinpoint you, just exploring the discussion of using disappointment, etc as a means of motivating children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
I am, however, *displeased* when she makes a poor choice about her behavior, and that this "natural consequence" alone is not enough motivation for her to make positive changes in her behavior.

I think I'm starting to understand what you are saying now. So, using these examples:

Quote:

"I'm disappointed that you chose to fool around in the bathroom instead of brushing your teeth, because now there's no time for bedtime stories, and I really enjoy when we read together."
I'm thinking (and hey, these are just suggestions, lord knows I don't have this GD down perfect either!) that this is putting the focus on how she is making you feel, rather than her taking responsibility for these being HER problems. Not yours. kwim? I might say "it took a long time for you to brush your teeth. now we don't have time for stories. I know how much you like stories. i bet that makes you sad. what can we do next time to help you get your teeth brushed?" This makes it HER problem and empathizes with her.

Quote:

Honestly, I have to say that I disagree with the whole idea of needing to tiptoe around words such as "unacceptable" or "disappointed" or even "wrong." The truth is, there ARE things that are wrong or unacceptable.
Yes, but my feeling is that until kids are older (and maybe your six year old is "old enough", I'm not sure) they often equate actions with themselves. So to feel angry, is to be angry, and if being angry is wrong then THEY are somehow wrong, kwim? I don't think very young children intuitively understand the difference between *that* was wrong and *you* are wrong. So that's why I believe it's important to choose your words carefully. But again I'm not sure at what age they are able to separate these concepts.



> I really think that too many people are so terrified of damaging a child's self-esteem that they believe that they can never communicate to a child that he has done something wrong.[/uote]
> 
> Well, I certainly have rules/limits and I have no problems telling my child when she is in "violation" of those rules/limits. But I do it in a "teaching spirit" kind of way. Not in a "you suck" kind of way. If that makes sense.
> 
> ...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I'm curious why she can't have a bedtime story if she takes longer thanusual to brush her teeth. Did she disappear for an hour? If so, how come nobody checked up on her- she may have needed help.

How is brushing teeth tied into reading bedtimes stories, time-wise? How much time is allotted for brusing and reading? I think a parent has to own some of the responisbility for maintinaing a timeline for a 6 yr old if timelines are critical. 6 yr olds do not live in the same clocked world as adults, thank god. Plus, if a parent likes reading bedtimes stories so much, why punish the parent?

This example is just not working for me.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I understand the no time for reading perfectly. If a child is supposed to be in bed by say 7pm or they are tired and grouchy the next day. And if they dawdle too long and are not done getting ready for bed, even with gentle prodding and help, by 7pm, then there IS no time for a story. My boys know what time bed is but if getting ready becomes a projexc and it takes too long there is just not time.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If time is so important, then a parent needs to assist a small child. I don't think talking about 'dissapointment' is helpful at all to such a little child's growth. But saying " Here's your toothbrush, sweetie. Our book is waiting---I am so curious about what happens to Pippi! is. And then take the 2 minutes to keep the teeth- brushing child on task.

Going to bed should never be a punsihment. Helping to transition to rest is extremely important-- and if a tired child cannot get ready for bed in the time frame specified, without a parent's anger or 'dissapointment' , then a parent needs to assist. We're talking about a 6 yr old, not a 16 yr old. IMO, going to bed punished does not make for an easy transition to sleep.

Talking about 'dissapointment' because a child lost track of time as the water was soothingly running over his hands is simply not GD in my book. Neither is too much talking 'Can you think of ways to not aggravate me so I can put you to bed " (however nicely framed) is not GD-- it's manipulation. Sure, you're holding the carrot of a story out. But it's not really about the story for a child-- it's about the relationship and feeling loved and being in your parent's arms at the end of a long, demanding day. It's about taking the 15 minutes to help the child transition into a calm state so they can fall asleep.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I don't think not reading a book at bedtime is punishment. It is a consequence of not doing what needs to be done before bed and running out of time to read said book. I don't think that a bright 6 year old should need much assistance getting ready for bed, at least my 6 year old doesn't. He is very advanced and knows how to do everything the needs to be done, yes children get sidetracked but I should not have to sit on top of him when on other nights he has demonstrated to me that he can do it. And nowhere did the OP say she was disappointed to her child because she lost track of time or that she should earn her story for tomorrow. She asked for ways to try and help her child listen to her better.

In no way do I feel it is manipulation to tell a child that if time is up there is no story. In life ppl have deadlines, if you miss the bus you don't get to school, if you don't finish your homework you get a bad grade, if you don't finish your lunch in the cafeteria before the time is up you go hungry. If a mother is gently saying, sorry honey we just don't have time for a story tonight, you know you don't feel your best in the morning if your up late, I call that GD and also a learning experience for the child to take responsibility for herself. That is just my opinion and I know we all view things differently. I will agree to disagree with you on this.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Woohoo, more debating...









Piglet, I wasn't offended exactly, I just felt I was being misunderstood. I agree with you about very young children not necessarily being mature enough to distinguish between a parent being upset about their actions and being upset with them. My daughter, at age 6, has a pretty good understanding of this, partly due to the fact that we have spent a lot of time teaching it to her, and partly because she is "advanced" somewhat in her emotional maturity. Every child is different, but as my DD's mom, I know that she feels secure and loved enough to be able to withstand some "criticism." Oh, and I get your point about the wording of the disappointment, how it should focus on her feelings rather than mine, and it usually does - that was just an example.

Oh, and where did that "teaching spirit way, not 'you suck' way" part of the quote come from? That certainly is not something I wrote, but it appears in the middle of something you quoted me as saying...







:

I think MamaBug did a pretty good job of answering Momma4's question in the same way I would have. I don't use bedtime as a punishment at all, but the reality is that if my daughter is not in bed by 8:00 it is really hard for her to get going in the morning for school, and we all benefit when our mornings go smoothly because it just sets a pleasant tone for the entire day. So if she takes twenty minutes to brush because she is watching herself sing songs in the mirror, suddenly it is five to eight and there goes story time. She understands how this works and does not feel "punished" and has no trouble going to sleep because she is tired by 8:00! No, she is not 16, but she is old enough to understand that you can't take your sweet time whenever you want and expect the world to stop and wait for you.

Yes, she is easily distracted, but I do not have the luxury of being able to keep her company during her routines. She and I eat dinner alone on weeknights because DH works late, and it is her job to get ready on her own while I clean up from dinner and make her lunch for the next day. I also feel that she needs to develop responsibilty for certain things at this age and that it is important for her to learn to focus without constant nagging from mom and dad. Kids tune out nagging, anyway. I'm not going to hover over her for the entire bedtime routine, and I'm not going to check on her every five minutes with a, "Are you in your pj's yet?" "Did you go to the bathroom yet?" "Did you start brushing?" I'll start sounding like the adults from the "Peanuts" cartoons to her, you know, that "Waaa waaa waaa waa" sound!!! :LOL

I do not think it is at all manipulative or controlling for a child to lose a time-related privilege if something is not done on time. As Mamabug said, that is how the world works. Not having time for something is a pretty natural consequence, and I've been using that since DD was very small, for example, "If we can get our shopping done quickly (translation: cooperative in-store behavior so I don't have to keep stopping to discipline her), we will have time to look at the kitties in the pet shop before we go home!" And the word "using" isn't even correct, because it happens naturally. If I need to be home at 5:00 to start dinner and our shopping trip takes an extra 20 minutes due to her misbehavior, there really is no time to look in the pet shop. I'm surprised at the way some people are calling this sort of thing manipulative, because most people here at MDC are all for natural consequences and this falls into that category, IMO.

Anyway, people can disagree with me all they want! We all do what works best for our families and our children at their particular age and level of maturity. I have come up with a "method" to help DD be a better listener, somewhat based on Mamabug's suggestions, and so far it is working very well. And no punishments have been necessary.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Subscribing..


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

So you're against assisiting keeping the child on track? No, "sweetie, time for story" ? and "Here. llet me help you dry off. I wonder what's up with Pippi tonight?' Or, "If you want to play in the water tonight instead of a story, that's ok. I'll let you know when' it's 8, and I'll come tuck you in". Otherwise, that's not GD-- that's setting a child up for failure. Which is in no way GD. And again, manipulation, 'Honey, you took so long to brush your teeth. Now I'm so disspointed I can't read to you tonight' is not by any stretch of my imagination, GD.

If a parent consistently can't find the 15 minutes to help a *6* yr old transition to sleep, then there's a problem. GD takes a little time. Arbitray punishments and faked sadness isn't GD.

Let's try another example. I am really not always so cantakerous. But I loathe arguments which try to get punishments to look like GD.

edited for typos and clarity


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Momma4, I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. I'll respond to what you said, though.

First of all, there is no "faked sadness." I am sad when DD chooses to fool around and we lose story time, because it is something we both enjoy.

Second, I do not think this is an arbitrary punishment. It is a natural consequence in a home where bedtimes exist (I know that not every home has set bedtimes, but we do). An arbitrary punishment would be something totally unrelated that I had to impose, such as, "You took too long getting ready for bed, so you can't watch 'Cyberchase' tomorrow morning!" I'm questioning whether you think that any negative consequence qualifies as "punishment"? Yes, this is a natural consequence that I can override, unlike, say, having the cat scratch you if you pull his tail, but it's still a natural - or at least logical - consequence.

Third, I am not against assisting a child who needs assistance . But my nearly six and a half year old does not need help changing into pj's or brushing her teeth or using the toilet. An occasional, "How're you doing up there?" is fine, but I refuse to constantly nag her. When my DH is home on weekends, we are happy to keep her company if that's what she wants, but on weeknights, I have my own responsibilities at the same time she is getting ready for bed and she understands this. We all work together as a family and everyone is responsible for certain things in our home.

(A note on responsibility: I've seen tremendous variation in what children of certain ages are responsible for in their own homes. Mine is probably responsible for a lot - making her bed, feeding her fish, hanging up her towel after baths, doing her homework independently and packing it in her backpack, writing thank-you notes, etc. She's more than capable of these things and they give her a sense of pride and accomplishment. It makes her feel like an important member of our family, which she is! I'm not a huge fan of doing everything for children once they are capable of doing it on their own.)

As far as transitioning to sleep, of course that is part of our routine. We aren't saying, "That's it, no stories, get into bed and shut the light, good night!" (How awful to think of that!) At night, whether we have stories or not, DH and I (he comes home a few minutes before her bedtime most nights) sit on her bed and we each name three things that made us thankful during the day, and then we have lots of hugs and kisses. No matter what time it is. Sure, we like when we have a story, too, and we usually do, but dawdling has consequences, at home and in the outside world.

Note to dead horse: Sorry for the beating!!! :LOL


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Well I don't think the horse is quite dead enough. :LOL

Of course we can agree to disagree.







You can agree it works for your child. It seems to.

And I agree while it might be working, it's not GD.

Now, it doesn't mean i don't think you're not a wonderful parent. I just don't think this approach falls under GD.

Is the horse dead now? :LOL


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

LunaMom, going with your brushing teeth/bedtime example-it seems clear that the idea of reading a bedtime story isn't motivating to your dd (though she enjoys it, the thought of not doing it isn't enough to hurry her along), and it's clear that the idea of avoiding disappointing Mom and Dad isn't motivating. (Can she tell time? Does she have an accurate sense of how much time is available for her to brush teeth, pajamas, etc. before she doesn't get a story?) Maybe you could try something completely different from imposing a consequence. One thing that works for us in getting our children to move along quickly is to set a timer and see if the kids can beat the timer-finish before the timer goes off. It's a game, it's fun, no one is frustrated, and the necessary task is getting done in a timely manner (with no nagging).

Another thought is that it's pretty natural for all kids, but particularly young kids, to dawdle. They're enjoying living in the moment, and aren't thinking in terms of how fast they need to get things done. So another thing we do if we find that the kids are moving slowly and not getting to bed early enough is to rearrange the routine-we start the routine earlier to give them the extra time they seem to need. That might mean eating dinner earlier or doing the kitchen clean-up after the kids go to bed, but it can make for a much more pleasant transition to bed-and for much less frustrated parents.

Maybe, since your daughter is 6 and seems to be very capable, you could talk with your daughter about how to solve the problem. Kids can come up with some pretty good ideas. She may be able to tell you more about why she takes a long time to brush teeth when she knows she won't be able to read a story if she takes too long (maybe it's relaxing to sing to herself in the mirror or whatever and she'd rather do that than read, or maybe she loses track of time), she may be able to tell you what would help her feel motivated, she may be able to come up with some creative ideas for being quicker. IME, when kids come up with the solutions or work together with parents on solutions, they are much more motivated than they are when the parent decides on the solution for them-whatever type of solution it is.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Is there a chance that you’re actually talking too much?


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

sledg I agree that timers are very effective and for all we know LunaMom may have or be using that as well.

Momma4 I am afraid that I am going to have to beat that horse one more time :LOL
Discipline can be defined in many ways, some harsh some not, but GD DOES contain discipline of one form or another. When my boys lose a story before bed because we have run out of time, whether it be because they didn't get ready in time or we were out late and there just isn't time, they in no way feel punished or upset, they just know that at 7:30 it is time for bed and that is that. We have certain expectations that they are aware and that is how our family is run. That is not to say, like LunaMom, that we just toss them in bed and don't help them transition to sleep. There are several things we do at bedtime that we always do that take but a few minutes, much less time then reading the types of books we read to the boys, and we do them every night without fail. I don't see how anything about that, that is not gentle? I feel that you have decided what GD is and that is that, when in fact there are many loving ways to teach children self control and proper behavior. Ok I think now the horse is officially dead!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

MamaBug, yep-LunaMom may be using a timer. Just tossing thoughts out in an effort to be helpful.

ICMama, what a great question about talking too much. I will remember that for myself.

LunaMom, I wanted to clarify (since there seem to be some sensitive feelings on the subject in this thread) that I don't think using consequences is incompatible with GD, though I personally strive to not use punishment or reward systems anymore. I just wanted to share my experience that sometimes things are easier on everyone when we sort of let go of the need to have things done a certain way or to find a consequence that will make our kids do what we want, and instead try to find a way of working with our kids, looking at things from a different point of view, or thinking a little bit more outside the box. I missed what you posted earlier about finding something that has been working for you the past few days. My apologies.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

sledg I want to apologize to you I didn't mean your suggestion wasn't helpful. On the contrary, I think timers are a wonderful idea, we have used them to make things seem more like a game at home. I just meant that since LM had said she has tried multiple things that maybe she has done this as well but if not it was a great idea. Sorry if I came across the wrong way.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Ooh, everyone's being so sensitive!









I have been using a timer lately, and that is part of the method I mentioned above. It's all going well. Thanks for suggesting it anyway, sledg!

I have to agree with Mamabug and say that I also feel the whole bedtime thing fits in fine with GD. I never heard anywhere that GD means there are never consequences for a child's behavior. And AGAIN (sorry, horsie...), when a child has a bedtime, that's when she goes to bed, period, except on certain occasions when she gets to stay up late for something special. I like the example of losing stories because of returning home late - that happens in our house, too, if we go out to dinner or something and return home too close to bedtime or after bedtime. Then she goes right to bed after changing and brushing and she understands why. So it is no different if she is "late" to bed by her own doing. That's GD in my book. All the choices we make have consequences in the real world, and it is no different at home.

Momma4, just out of curiosity and I swear I'm not baiting you, when your children make inappropriate choices, do you ever impose a logical consequence? I'm distinguishing that from a natural consequence, because if we want to get technical, natural consequences are those that happen on their own (i.e., pull cat's tail = get scratched) and logical ones have to be imposed. So if your child is drawing on the furniture with a marker, wouldn't you say, "I'm sorry, but we only draw on paper. You may not have that marker anymore," or would you give the speech but still let the child have the marker in his hand? And, on that note, if someone takes a marker away from a child for that reason, do you not consider that to be GD? Just trying to get clear on what we're agreeing to disagree on!

IdentityCrisisMama, I ALWAYS talk too much. :LOL But I get what you mean, and no, I don't think so.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

mamabug,







I actually thought _I_ may have offended with my timer suggestion-or with all my suggestions, since they seemed to sort of flow with the anti-consequence argument (which is not an argument I was trying to make). I wasn't offended by your comment. Oy, this whole internet thing is really tricky. It's so much easier to have a conversation in person. Maybe I'm just a






























:LOL


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I wanna jump on the dead horse too.









I think GD encompasses a spectrum from using logical consequences to not using them at all. Some believe they are the same as punishment, some don't. For me, I try not to use logical consequences because they are imposed, but I admit there are some cases where I do. Like the example with the markers. When DD was not able to stick to drawing on paper I concluded I had introduced them too early and put them away. That was almost eighteen months ago, lol. Anyways, I think the "no stories" thing is okay in my books because there is a rule in the household about bedtimes, and that rule is well known by the children. In that sense it seems much more a "natural" consequence than in imposed one. We don't have a set bedtime, so it wouldn't work for us. It would be purely punitive.

Anyways, I am more on sledg's page. I don't know the OP's DD, and I don't have a whole lot of experience with a six year old. But I always feel that if a child can't follow a responsibility then the responsibility might have been too much, so I start to intervene and help. OTOH, the OP seems to know that her DD is capable, so I would definitely ask her to help figure out a solution, like a timer or something. I totally agree that kids who participate in their own "problem solving" have much more of an interest in it, plus it is a very valuable Life lesson.

Oh, and LunaMom the phrase that ended up in your quote was supposed to be my reply. It was a typing error, I forgot to put in the "end quote" thingy.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I'm interested in the concept of 'tit for tat'.

There have been a couple of times recently where I've asked dd#1 (4 1/2) to help me out - eg I"m nursing the baby and the phone rings, and I ask her to run and fetch the phone for me - and she says no. Usually she loves to be part of the daily routine of the house and enjoys helping, but occasionally she is just feeling contrary - these refusals are usually done quite rudely too.

Anyway, I guess I have used what some of you have called 'tit for tat', although sort of in advance. I have told her that this may make me feel less inclined to do things out of my way for her and I have given her an example, eg "you know, next time you ask me to dry my hands and help you with your drawing, I may be feeling hurt that you wouldnt help me out, and it could mean that I'll feel less like helping you out."

I'm in two minds about whether this is truly manipulative and wrong, or whether it is simply teaching her the way that people respond to one another and how emotions work - my intention is to help her to gain greater social skills and emotional intelligence. Not to necessarily be compliant - she can still say no to fetchign the phone, but I'd like her to understand that such a refusal will often have an impact upon later interactions.

Dont get me wrong, I dont then refuse to help her out next time she asks, what I'd probably do is make a point of reminding her that I feel less inclined to do so, but that I'll still do it because I dont want her to feel the way that I felt when she wouldnt help me out. But I do try to make teaching points of these sorts of incidents.

Is this wrong? I can see both sides. I never saw it as 'tit for tat', but as part of the reality of family life and interactions.









Regarding stories at bedtime, I see nothing wrong in cutting out the story if the child chooses to use the time to do soemthing else. The only thing I'd personally try to avoid is the idea of disappointing the adult by 'wasting the time'. THis happens sometimes in our house, but I simply act matter of fact about it. I remind dds that we need to get a move on if we'll have time for a story. (they are too young to be left alone to get ready for bed, but heck they can waste time, messing around, arguing, taking off pjs after I"ve put them on, etc etc). If they do continue then I accept that this is their choice - messing around is more inviting to them than the story, so we end up skipping the story. I dont see this as anything other than gentle discipline, personally.

Interesting discussion, by the way!


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

All this talk of logical consequences reminds me of the book that I just finished, Raising Self-Reliant Children in a Self-Indulgent World by Stephen Glenn. I really liked it a lot and it rang true for me. I think there's a good explanation there about our society, culturals shifts in changing our perceptions in child-rearing.

It also has a good explanation of logical and natural consequences.

I remember one part of the book mentioned how in the past (the thirties and earlier) there were natural consequences for many things, e.g. if child didn't milk cow the family did without milk.

The author argues that nowadays there are almost no acceptable natural consequences and that's why we need to structure the family environment a bit like the outside world (yet still much safer) and let children experience logical consequences: related, respectful and reasonable (that last one to both the adult and child).

The book is not as much a parenting book as it is about teaching children life skills to be successful all around: relationships, reality, choices, work, struggles, etc.

Continuing on the idea of the GD spectrum, those passionately opposed to logical consequences and to any form of discomfort (mild or not) to child would not appreciate this book at all.

BTW, I really like Maya44's ideas and will incorporate them in my discipline strategy. Thanks, Maya!

I'm also a huge fan of Piglet but I think she already knows that..


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Ithink I just clicked away a whole post.







So forigve me if a similar post pops up somewhere later.

LunaMom- I am receiving your question in the nice spirit you are asking. I am not offended or put out. I guess I would need a particular example. Dh and I have never made punishment part of the equation, although we have had challenging times. Our chilren are 16, 12, just turned 11, and just turned 6. Our 6 yr old has never been 'sent to bed' and our 16 yr old has never been grounded. I simply can't think of a time we had to punish our kids.







And it's not that they are running amok, either. They are nice & thoughtful kids who people like.

We don't have a problem with disobedience, and when kids are tired we alter our strategy. One of our children is extremely challenging and we try to keeo track of what will be an issue for that child. We are constantly discussing those needs with said child and that child is on board with us as best the child is able.

We are a very honest family. If I am too tired at night to read stories, I just say so, but if a child wants to fall asleep in my arms they can. Our presence at night is not dependant on any sort of pre-bedtime behavior. None of my children are affected in the morning wrt whether they fell asleep at 8 or 8:15, or even 8:30. In four kids, it's never been an issue, so i cannot really comment on those children who depend on those 15 minutes. I trust parents know their kids well .

Two of my children attend school and two of my children are hs'd. We try to meet individual needs as best we can, while still loving each other and helping our kids to understand our family vision. Our children do not strike each other, there are no 'put downs', etc.

Punishment has never factored in for us.







:

But I have been waaaay angry and I have 'lost it' in my way. But neither dh or I have ever struck a child or told a child he/she dissapoints us. We consider that manipulative and/or abusive to varrying degrees. I am grateful to be in a loving relationship where my stress level isn't challenged too, too much. In other worlds, dh and I are on board with what we want the tone of our home to be. Our 16 yr old has never been 'grounded' and our 6 yr old has never lost a bedtime story. None of that has ever come up.

If we want our children to do something--such as come for their bedtime sroty- we tell them it's time. If they come, great, if they choose something else, that's fine. My 6 yr old has always responded to 'My eyes are about to close. Finish washing your hands and crawl into bed with me. In two minutes my eyes will fall shut and you won't know what happens to Pippi unti tomorrow". Maybe i have a perfect 6 yr old, but she just comes running. lol It's cute. Our 11 yr old knows that after 9, his Dad's eyes will close and snoring will commence. He's pretty much got their book open and ready for Daddy. lol

That doesn't answer your question...right?

Like I said, ask me a particular question & I might be able to give better info.

And please, nobody say 'well, you must have perfect children' because we do not. We just are very relaxed, have easy-going children who are not into fighting. But I also think it's because dh and I are not into fighting. What you could accuse us of is being relaxed and adaptable, and blessed with healthy children.

We just lucked out, I suppose. Although, we have worked really hard to create a climate of love & respect in our home. We want all members of this family to feel safe and heard. So far, it's paying off. I have not counted all the chicks, as my kids are still young. or at least young-ish.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
But we do need to do something, because she isn't listening well enough by our standards, and we are often frustrated with our otherwise delightful daughter.









Any progress?

If you're still looking for a solution that fits your family, I'm thinking that, with the bed time thing, maybe rewording things could work. You could say something like, "You may make your way to bed at you own pace but I need to read your story at 8 so I can do some things for myself. I would like you to be finished brushing your teeth before I read the book." At 7:45 you could ask her if she would like to finish up and have the story or not. No exasperation, no punishment.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

LunaMom -- You're right. I responded more to Maya44's ideas (here and elsewhere) about expressing disappointement, though she's made it clearer now to me now. I think it's probably a natural flow of conversation, but it's a bit annoying, I know. Sometimes I catch myself, sometimes I don't.

Also, I offered moral explanations as a perfectly valid option for everyone, just not myself. And the word inappropriate is just a pet peeve for me. I'm Buddhist. The way I see things, beahviors just *are*; they are neither appropriate nor inappropriate. And that's something that is difficult to explain a forum like this, in just a few short words. For me, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with my child's self-esteem, in the sense that you are intending.

I only want to add, because I'm afraid I've nothing of particular value to add to the conversation because I don't have a 6 year-old, that not having story time at bedtime is a huge punishment in the eyes of my 5 year-old, no matter how late she has been allowed to play; she just can't figure out the time concept. But she cries quite a bit about it, and I think it's cool that your dd just accepts it and drifts off to la-la land.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Oy, this whole internet thing is really tricky. It's so much easier to have a conversation in person. Maybe I'm just a






























:LOL


:LOL No you are not a nut, ITA things come across differently online then they would if you were speaking directly to someone. You can't hear tone, see the expression on someones face, or body language. I often hate chat boards for that very reason. Not to worry


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i've been lurking and reading these threads with interest, what a great discussion! what's the title of the Wolf book everyone's referring to?

i'm not sure where i picked up my parenting skills, they just sort of happened. i grew up with an abusive dad, but my mom was GD with me and far ahead of her time, i think. i remember she always had a "just so" attitude, like "this is just how things are" and i didn't feel shamed or rebellious when she was helping me behave better. i don't remember any punishments from her, and i don't remember any charts or stars or concrete rewards, other than me feeling that "just so" feeling.

i worked in daycare and studied child psychology, daycare is GD by default since you can't strike or even yell at a child, so i think that helped a lot also.

anyway, i became a step-mom at 22, to three kids - ages 3, 4 and 9. yikes, instant family!







i was afraid we'd butt heads constantly - "you're not my mother" stuff - but my mom told me to just expect them to behave the way i wanted them to behave, and then go from there. to make things "just so" ... like, we walk with our feet because that's just the way it's done, and we lay our clothes out the night before because that's the way it's done. all things flowed into everything else. we all sat at the table because we also ate out, so we had "restaurant rules" at home so it would be easy to remember what to do when we ate out.

anyway ... it worked! and i still am surprised that it did. i've been the same way with every kid i've been with since then, and it's worked with every kid, no matter how different they are. i have to be flexible and adapt to their temperaments, that's my job. so now when i'm reading maya's posts and hearing about the Wolf book, i'm like "oh yeah, that's what happened!" *lol* maybe it's intuitive parenting? not sure.

i find myself thinking about my daughter's future and wondering how early we'll butt heads and i'll need to be firm. then i realize, it's already started ... i change her diaper, she tries to take it off for me, i just say "mommy's job" with a smile and move her hands. because that's just the way things are


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## pfamilygal (Feb 28, 2005)

I just read the story at 8, whether the kids are there or not. I head upstairs and yell "storytime!" The 2 y/o always comes, but the 4 y/o farts around half the time. He'll come moseying in at the end of the book and want me to start over. I just say "sorry, we're almost finished." and keep reading. A couple of times he's thrown a tantrum about missing the story and I hug him and say, "yes, it's sad when we miss out on things. I'm sure tomorrow you'll be super speedy when it's time for story." And I tuck them in. I do not allow him to cajole me into restarting the story or reading another book. And the next night he's much quicker.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
Anyway, I guess I have used what some of you have called 'tit for tat', although sort of in advance. I have told her that this may make me feel less inclined to do things out of my way for her and I have given her an example, eg "you know, next time you ask me to dry my hands and help you with your drawing, I may be feeling hurt that you wouldnt help me out, and it could mean that I'll feel less like helping you out."

I'm in two minds about whether this is truly manipulative and wrong, or whether it is simply teaching her the way that people respond to one another and how emotions work - my intention is to help her to gain greater social skills and emotional intelligence. Not to necessarily be compliant - she can still say no to fetchign the phone, but I'd like her to understand that such a refusal will often have an impact upon later interactions.

Hi there,

I'm a lurker, but I'm finding this discussion VERY interesting, and helping me form my own ideas about GD. Thanks!

I just wanted to say about the "tit for tat" thing to Britishmum: even though my dd isn't that old yet, maybe it would be better to ignore it and let it slide. I'm drawing this from the book by Latham, "The Power of Positive Parenting", it's kind of hokey, but I like his point. Which is, in a nutshell: we ignore the behavior (whenever possible) that doesn't fit into our family value system, and we reward and model the behavior that we want our children to learn.

For example, the pp asked her dd to set the table and she said no. Well, since the pp was willing to let it slide and it was something she didn't HAVE to do, she would just ignore her response, and pretty much the whole incident. Then, say, the next night she asks her to do it, and she complains about it but does it anyway. The mom would ignore the complaining, warmly thank her for doing such a good job, and hope that the next time the complaining would diminish. And she'd model what she wanted by happily and cheerfully helping her daughter out when she could.

Not that I don't agree with you that it's a good idea to teach children about how people react to being told no, etc, but it does seem like there's plenty of other ways they'll learn that as they develop greater and deeper empathy. I can remember examples of times when I was a child when I had an epiphany that I had better treat people better if I wanted more friends, a good lesson to learn, IMO.

What do you all think of that? And if any of you have read that, do you think I've got it right?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Wolf's book is "The Secret of Parenting"


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

britishmum, it's interesting you brought up that example. a few weeks ago my DH and I had a discussion about that very thing. we were getting ready to leave the playground and dd was upset and rather vocal about it, whining and screeching. dh said something along the lines of "when you act that way, it makes me feel less inclined to take you again". this was not the first time he'd used that expression, and I told him i didn't like it. first, i said it brought up the future, an abstract future of "next time we do this" or "next time you ask to do this" which I thought was beyond the concepts of our dd (3 in July). second, i felt that it was too abstract "it _might_ make the person _less inclinced_ to say yes"...this also seems way to abstract to have any meaning to such a young child. i felt that it was sufficient to tell dd that her expression of sadness/upset was not appropriate, that we did not screech in our family, and leave it at that. i felt he was way overcomplicating the issue. most of all, i felt that he was ascribing responsibility for his own feelings and actions on to her. as if her behaviour then dictated his desires next time the request was asked. while i suppose this is true in the adult world, i think this is just way too much responsibility for a child. if that makes sense.

his argument was along the lines of those posted by you and others. i don't know yet about older children, and i suppose its a lesson they will have to learn eventually, but it feels like one of those lines af reasoning that suggests we should inflict the tougher lessons of life on our children deliberately to "prepare" them for it, rather than focussing our efforts on creating children who are capable _within themselves_ of handling these things because we have helped establish a discipline framework that lets them problem-solve ("hmmm, i wonder why i don't get invited to the mall with my friends?" and, maybe by talking it over with mum, realizes that something about her behaviour makes them less inclined to do so) and, more importantly, fosters the confidence to problem-solve.

long-winded way of saying, give them the confidence and the skill set to handle problems, and they'll resolve the "tit-for-tat" issue themselves.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I do agree that I'm not a fan of the "tit for tat" idea most of the time. It does seem manipulative. OTOH, once a child is older, it is true that you feel less like playing with that child when she asks if she has been poorly behaved for a good part of the day. Parents are human, too. I don't really come right out and say to DD, "No, I don't feel like playing Monoploy Jr. with you because you have been driving me nuts all day," but I'm just less likely to say yes. I think she understands the tit for tat thing without an explanation being necessary, as Piglet68 suggested that older children will. This is partly due to the reality she experiences - she's not stupid, so she must notice that Mommy plays with her more when she behaves better - and the fact that when we have a pleasant day, I remark on it: "What a nice day we're having - you've been so cooperative and we're spending so much nice time reading and drawing and playing!" I think that is a far cry from, "You didn't help me fold the laundry, so now I don't feel like helping you look for your lost toy." I do think that is manipulative and wrong. If my child refused to do a chore when asked, I would simply point out that everyone in our family needs to help each other, at which point I'm pretty sure she would comply, maybe with a little grumble, but I'd ignore the grumble and thank her for doing the job.









As far as the example about leaving the park screeching, a three-year-old may or may not be mature enough to understand the *meaning* of, "Because you're throwing a tantrum about leaving the park, I might be less likely to take you here next time," but even if they could understand it, I don't think it would have too much impact on their behavior in the moment. They simply can't do the delayed gratification thing at this age. My six-year-old can barely do that most of the time! Children live in the moment. I agree that it is probably best to deal with the behavior in whatever way is appropriate for your family, and perhaps next time you go the park plan for it by stating your expectations and perhaps having some sort of incentive to leave peacefully, either a fun activity waiting at home, or finding a way to transition from park to home by bringing home some pinecones or whatever. Honestly, in this specific example, I used to just sort of distract DD by swinging her hand merrily and talking about what fun we had at the park while leading her to the car.

Pfamilygal, I like your method of just starting storytime at a certain hour, but since I have only one child I'd be reading to the goldfish in the bowl! :LOL

ParisMaman, if my DD felt as upset as yours by losing storytime and cried about it, and didn't seem to understand the time concept, then perhaps I would need to find some other strategy. And while you did not say this specifically yourself, I am aware that in some families there isn't as much of a time issue in general - mperhaps there are no set bedtimes, and children are homeschooled and can sleep later or learn their lessons while still wearing pajamas. So we all decide what issues are important for our own children to understand.

I like this thread, even though there's been a bit of tension here and there, because I think we're all learning from each other. And learning that our own way is certainly not the only way. I can respect anything a person does to promote good behavior in their child as long as it works - meaning it teaches them to choose good behavior, not that it scares them out of the "bad" behavior - and is respectful of the child.


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