# Is it my place to comment on this, and if so how do I do it??



## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

I have a boy in my home daycare, "L", who is 3.5yo. I have had him for nearly a year now, full-time, about 9 hours a day.

His mom is a single-mom, and his dad is not in the picture at all. He lives in a different country, along with all paternal relatives, and this has been the case since the L was a young toddler. There is also an 8yo sister.

Mom works full-time, and is also involved in a lot of other activities. She is a very active woman and takes part in several sports in the evenings. She also likes to go out with friends, and does this most weekends.

L has always been a challenging kid, but nothing too serious. Mainly normal kid stuff, but up a notch. I have been noticing lately that his behaviour tends to be much worse on the days after his mom has been out the night before. I pretty much always know when she is going someplace because she will tell him that he is going to auntie's house for a sleepover because she is going out, or that a babysitter is coming because she has curling, etc. etc. And then the next morning she drops me off a miserable child (and she knows he is miserable, she'll always comment as she drops him off).

Mom has also made several comments to me that L has become a lot more clingy and whiney at home. She has also told me that he doesn't sleep well when she is out, and is usually still awake when she gets home.

I really suspect that L needs to spend more time with his mom, both so he can get some good sleep, and just because being with mom is important. He doesn't see her all day, and she is leaving him at least two weeknights, and most weekend-nights every week. She is his only parent, and I think that is making things extra tough for him.

I don't think she has made the connection between her going out, and L's behaviour the next day. I have been thinking if I should maybe say something in a non-judgmental way. Is it possible? Is it my place? Should I just shut my trap?

I have a very good relationship with Mom and we both respect each other. I still don't want to offend her or anything. I know she has a deep need to stay active and have a "life" outside of her kids, but I can't help but think that L would be better off if she could put some of her recreational activities on hold for a while.

I was thinking about maybe just saying "have you noticed that mornings tend to be tougher after you have left the kids with a sitter the night before?"

Thoughts?


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## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't think it's your place to say anything. At most commenting that he seemed tired might be acceptable but it's not your job to comment on her parenting.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

If you have a good relationship with her I'd say it. Maybe she hasn't connected the dots, she's too close to see that he's having a hard time.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I *might* make a comment in passing that he seems crankier after his "night away from home" but I would *not* comment on that he's away bc of her own night out or her parenting. Otherwise I would just work on strengthening the child's sense of security, talk about things he's done with mom, etc.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

If you want to continue to keep him, I would not say anything.


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## Musubi (Feb 12, 2007)

A friend and I ran an infant/toddler program out of her house, and we had to bring up "touchy" subjects to parents from time to time. We did it because we cared, not because we wanted to criticize their parenting. And because we had such a great rapport with our parents, they knew that anything we said was out of sincerity.

I think there's a way to go about it without being offensive or seemingly judgmental. Some parents either genuinely don't understand why their child is acting out or have a clue but need affirmation. The mom most likely knows that her going out is affecting her son, but doesn't want to have to cut out her fun time.

I used to go the route of cluelessness.







"Oh really? He's having a bad morning? Did he sleep well last night?" "When do you notice that he's being super clingy?" Even though I fully knew, I wanted them to say it out loud.

We had a girl whose parents were divorcing. We noticed a HUGE behavior change and although her parents were not helpful, we had to keep letting them know that their behavior was completely affecting their daughter. In a very neutral, non-judgmental way of course.









This boy's mom may also think that because he likes the auntie or sitter, that it's not a big deal and sort of a treat for him.

Poor guy. Good luck!


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

I'd wait until the next time SHE mentions his being cranky or whatever and just very casually observe "yes, he seems to be this way when you've been out the night before" or something very mild along that line. I'd be completely non-judgemental in my tone and let her put the rest of the pieces together.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
I'd wait until the next time SHE mentions his being cranky or whatever and just very casually observe "yes, he seems to be this way when you've been out the night before" or something very mild along that line. I'd be completely non-judgemental in my tone and let her put the rest of the pieces together.

ITA. A good way to approach it is when she brings up his behavior, ask her a question (ex - "Do you think he's getting upset, because you're going out?"), and then her answer and possibly connect the dots. That way she'll feel like she's figuring it out herself, and that will save her face...as we rarely like to be told what to do.


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## uumomma (Jun 10, 2007)

yes it is your place, you are his primary care giver during the week.

and it is clear he needs and advocate and you are it. esp. if she is "partying"

i did cc for many many years. and i shared my insight to my families.

the trick is to do it in a kind non judgmental manor, not always easy..

he is counting on you.


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

Not your place to say anything. She's making different life choices than you.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I agree that you probably shouldn't say anything, but this thread and the "3mo being fed candy" thread make me sad.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
I'd wait until the next time SHE mentions his being cranky or whatever and just very casually observe "yes, he seems to be this way when you've been out the night before" or something very mild along that line. I'd be completely non-judgemental in my tone and let her put the rest of the pieces together.

IMO that is the ONLY way that it would be acceptable to comment on this.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I would feel ethically obligated to comment, although she might be offended. I would try the really gentle, casual, in-passing comment first, and if she didn't seem concerned about making any changes, I would arrange a meeting and be kind but honest, giving her the benefit of the doubt and being very understanding. I agree that you are in the position of responsibility of being an advocate for the child. You have the advantage of seeing the child day to day and possibly an easier time putting the pattern together.


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## hippiechickinsing (Jan 13, 2007)

I would approach it by asking about the routine on the nights someone else cares for him. You have concerns about his mood/behavior on the days after he's been in alternative care. I think this is a legitimate concern and does not suggest any judgment of the mother on your part, just a desire to work together for the happiness and health of the child in your care.


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## MamaChicken (Aug 21, 2006)

My nanny has brought things up to me before - "your DS is a little crankier when your DH has to remind him (not so gently) about his chores" or "DD has some real behavior issues on the mornings you leave without waking her up first". Sometimes it is hard to hear, but I need the feedback or nothing would change.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I would only comment, if it comes with an offer of help. Can you help her with working out routines for the babysitters to follow? or some other help. If you just want to try to get her to give up all her evening activities, I don't think you should say anything.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Well, as a working mom whose kids are in daycare, I hate the judgment and parenting advice I've gotten from providers. It may have just been the way it was brought to me, but it always made me feel horrible and like a terrible mother.

I wouldn't bring it up. This is still her child and she gets to make these choices as his mother.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tessie* 
I don't think it's your place to say anything. At most commenting that he seemed tired might be acceptable but it's not your job to comment on her parenting.

I agree. She may take offense to it. A lot of moms are perfectly fine living life without their small children and leaving them with someone all the time and not connecting the fact that the child is upset when with the mother because she is away too often. There's nothing you can do about it, unfortunately.

My kids always act different when going to grandmas and spending the day. I had one of my children in child care when younger and they also acted worse at home after being there all day while I worked. That was just while working though. I couldn't imagine doing something in the evenings or weekends after working 40 hours away from my child. I felt like I never had enough time with my child as it was back then (I too was a single mom with my oldest). Thank goodness I got back with my child's father back then, because dating and socializing just wasn't happening. I probably never would have met another man until my kid was a teenager.







I worked my 40 hours a week but after that I put my child first - always.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I guess a question you could ask yourself is, would you word your comment the same way if you knew the mom was spending those nights away from the child to work a second job, or to care for a sick relative?

What I'm getting at is that you want to be sure you're not being critical of her lifestyle choices, and that your _only_ intent is to be sure that the child is getting enough sleep/time with mom.

How she spends her time is her business.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

It's your job as the child care provider. Do it gently (nobody likes to feel criticized), but definitely do it.

Someone else suggested posing it in a question. "Have you noticed...?" I'd go with that the next time she brings it up. She says he's cranky and you say, "Yeah [nodding], have you noticed that it happens whenever you've been out the night before?" And then TELL HER, "He may need to spend more time with you."

I had to care for my neighbor's daughter A LOT and the mom ended up taking complete advantage and not spending nearly enough time with her daughter. I was taking care of her even on the mother's time off. (Getting her off the bus and watching her *even though* mom could have adjusted her schedule.) It REALLY affected the little girl in a negative way and the neighbor and I are no longer friends. It was atrocious. The dynamics for my situation are a little different, but the bottom line is that my neighbor wasn't giving enough to her daughter, the same as this little boy you care for.

You definitely need to mention it, but do so gently. If she doesn't get it still, after a few weeks, be a little firmer. You might end up losing the child, but if it's impacting your daycare or your family (as it was for me) it may be better off that way.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I get that she needs a life, but the boy needs a parent more







.

I have a 3 y/o and it is obvious when she doesn't sleep well it exacerbates everything, she acts out, grabs her brother etc....Doesn't this effect you too? I mean you are the one having to deal with this behavior making care for him more difficult. I'd say something, but in a way that would be constructive to all parties, let her mention "he's in a mood" or something like that.

He's 3.5 it's very hard for them to communicate their needs and he is doing the only thing he knows. Sounds like he's starved for attention from his mom how sad.


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## oursweetboys (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaChicken* 
My nanny has brought things up to me before - "your DS is a little crankier when your DH has to remind him (not so gently) about his chores" or "DD has some real behavior issues on the mornings you leave without waking her up first". Sometimes it is hard to hear, but I need the feedback or nothing would change.









The OP saying nothing and ignoring her instincts will not help anyone in this situation. Who knows, the mom may appreciate the insight, assuming it's presented in a gentle manner.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
I agree. She may take offense to it. A lot of moms are perfectly fine living life without their small children and leaving them with someone all the time and not connecting the fact that the child is upset when with the mother because she is away too often. There's nothing you can do about it, unfortunately.

Who cares if she takes offense to it? So should we only consider the feelings of the parent at the absolute exclusion of the child's?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I guess a question you could ask yourself is, would you word your comment the same way if you knew the mom was spending those nights away from the child to work a second job, or to care for a sick relative?

What I'm getting at is that you want to be sure you're not being critical of her lifestyle choices, and that your _only_ intent is to be sure that the child is getting enough sleep/time with mom.

How she spends her time is her business.

See no, *I* would not word the comment the same way under the circumstances you describe. And I don't think I should have to. There's a difference between what you offered as examples and the mom just going out. I have NO issue with a parent going out and having time to him/herself. It's very important. However, if the child is being obviously affected by it and the parent is oblivious, then yes, the OP should gently say something. Someone has to advocate for this young child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I get that she needs a life, but the boy needs a parent more







.
I have a 3 y/o and it is obvious when she doesn't sleep well it exacerbates everything, she acts out, grabs her brother etc....Doesn't this effect you too? I mean you are the one having to deal with this behavior making care for him more difficult. I'd say something, but in a way that would be constructive to all parties, let her mention "he's in a mood" or something like that.
He's 3.5 it's very hard for them to communicate their needs and he is doing the only thing he knows. Sounds like he's starved for attention from his mom how sad.


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## minkleaf (Nov 7, 2009)

I'll admit I have no experience with daycare but I think it would be ok for the OP to mention something.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HarperRose* 
Someone else suggested posing it in a question. "Have you noticed...?" I'd go with that the next time she brings it up. She says he's cranky and you say, "Yeah [nodding], have you noticed that it happens whenever you've been out the night before?"

But maybe instead of phrasing it about the mom 'it happens whenever you've been out the night before' phrase it about the kid 'it happens whenever he spends the night at aunties or with the babysitter'. That shifts the focus to what's going on with the kid rather than the mom, and let's her come up with the idea of him spending more time with her rather than her being told what to do.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkleaf* 
But maybe instead of phrasing it about the mom 'it happens whenever you've been out the night before' phrase it about the kid 'it happens whenever he spends the night at aunties or with the babysitter'. That shifts the focus to what's going on with the kid rather than the mom, and let's her come up with the idea of him spending more time with her rather than her being told what to do.

Plus it could have nothing to do with him missing his mom. Maybe he has sugar late at his aunts or they keep him over stimulated there.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
Plus it could have nothing to do with him missing his mom. Maybe he has sugar late at his aunts or they keep him over stimulated there.

That was why I said to only bring it up, if you would be offering to help her with things like setting up a routine with the babysitter/aunt. They may not really listen to _her_ about a schedule, but would listen to an "authority," such as his child care provider. Especially if you wrote something "official" up together, for them to follow.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

I have a home childcare and it is certified through the military. I mention that because it seems that through the military, there are a lot more ongoing requirements. I have to go to monthly trainings and I to particate in extra educational courses etc. So my point in saying this is, we have monitors, trainers, directors etc. all on us, watching everything we do. One of the things we are trained on is how to talk to parents about stuff just like this. It is not only our job, but it is our moral obligation to put the kids FIRST. And by doing that, we have to do a lot of deductive reasoning and figure out what is the cause of many behaviors. If we figure out that a lot of negative behaviors are because of the parents actions like this, we have to address the parents, or sometimes even call in the family advocacy to address the parents.

This isn't an issue of trying to point out areas where the parents are failing, but instead to educate the parents on areas they might not be seeing because we are with the kids so often. A lot of the time the parents just need the education, and they will make the changes. The kids deserve that much from us. And frankly, lets admit, if the kids are happy at home, they are going to be happier for us.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
I have a home childcare and it is certified through the military. I mention that because it seems that through the military, there are a lot more ongoing requirements. I have to go to monthly trainings and I to particate in extra educational courses etc. So my point in saying this is, we have monitors, trainers, directors etc. all on us, watching everything we do. One of the things we are trained on is how to talk to parents about stuff just like this. It is not only our job, but it is our moral obligation to put the kids FIRST. And by doing that, we have to do a lot of deductive reasoning and figure out what is the cause of many behaviors. If we figure out that a lot of negative behaviors are because of the parents actions like this, we have to address the parents, or sometimes even call in the family advocacy to address the parents.

This isn't an issue of trying to point out areas where the parents are failing, but instead to educate the parents on areas they might not be seeing because we are with the kids so often. A lot of the time the parents just need the education, and they will make the changes. The kids deserve that much from us. And frankly, lets admit, if the kids are happy at home, they are going to be happier for us.

That was exactly my point too. Regardless of if it's sugar, bedtime rituals at aunties or mom not spending enough time with him-the boy is obviously unhappy in the current situation. He's trying to communicate that with the only tools he's got due to his age, it needs to be addressed in a constructive way for _all_ parties.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I used to work in a day care center as well as being a teacher in private schools.

When we noticed recurring aggressive or clingy/crying behavior, we would ask the parent if she/he could work with us on trying to find the cause/solution. Ask if the parent would like to set up a meeting with you. That puts it in her/his court. I find that once you do that and the parent is willing, the cause will often be brought up by the parent. Or you can hint towards it and see if she picks it up and mentions it.
If she/he seems completely clueless as to the cause, you can suggest things she/he can do with child in the evenings that may help the child feel more secure.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that if a parent invites another person to care for his/her child while s/he's away, this parent has invited the care-giver into agreed upon mutual concern for the child.

If the parent doesn't trust the care-giver to understand and communicate even with tough issues, then why on earth would s/he be okay with leaving his/her child with that care-giver?

So saying, free communication is part of the deal, is it not? How can any issue that directly affects the child be 'off-limits' or 'none-of-your-business'?

To whom is the care-giver primarily giving the care? The parent or the child? If the parent, then it would seem that open communication is warranted and necessary. If the child, then no question, it is warranted and necessary. If both, then it's the same.

Why would talking about the well-being of the child ever be off-limits or taboo or unprofessional or anything of the like???


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

OP here. Thanks for the thoughts - keep them coming if you have more to add. Definitely a lot of food for thought.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I guess a question you could ask yourself is, would you word your comment the same way if you knew the mom was spending those nights away from the child to work a second job, or to care for a sick relative?

What I'm getting at is that you want to be sure you're not being critical of her lifestyle choices, and that your _only_ intent is to be sure that the child is getting enough sleep/time with mom.

How she spends her time is her business.

Interestingly enough there was a situation a while back where this was the case. L's grandmother was very ill, had an extended hospital stay for many weeks, and subsequently passed away. Mom was spending most evenings at the hospital and her friends were providing childcare for her.

L acted much the same as I am seeing now when he is left with a sitter, if not more so because he was missing Mom and dealing with something scary happening with grandma that he didn't understand.

And at the time I had no problems talking about behaviour and issues with Mom. She asked and wanted to know. Of course that was a situation that couldn't have been helped, but she certainly understood how it was affecting her kids.

So I guess the reason why am I hesitant to bring it up now is that it does sound more like judgment, which is not at all what I intend.

Of course she is making different choices than I would, but I am also in a two-parent family, have a career that allows me to spend all day with my kid, and aren't at all athletic (nor do I enjoy going to the bar). So who knows what the case would be if the roles were reversed?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I would only comment, if it comes with an offer of help. Can you help her with working out routines for the babysitters to follow? or some other help. If you just want to try to get her to give up all her evening activities, I don't think you should say anything.

I am not sure what I would have to offer here. I don't have him in the evenings so I don't even know what his bedtime routine is.

I also don't think that it has to be all or nothing - there is always middle ground. Perhaps she could cut back to one sport at a time or something so she is only gone one night of the week, and then only go "out" on the weekends after the kids are in bed anyway. Just as a for instance. But I totally agree that it isn't my place to tell her what to do, nor would I ever consider doing that unless she outright asked me for my advice.

If I say anything at all, it would only be to point out (gently, and non-judgmentally) that L's behaviour tends to be more challenging on the days after he has been left with a sitter. What she does with that information is entirely up to her.

In any event, I only have him tomorrow and then not again to the new year. Hopefully he will get lots of time with Mom over the holidays and that should do him some good. I'll re-evaluate this situation once he is back.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I guess a question you could ask yourself is, would you word your comment the same way if you knew the mom was spending those nights away from the child to work a second job, or to care for a sick relative?

Yes. Because there's a chance that something different could be done at auntie's house to make it easier for her ds to go to sleep. Such as a phone call from mama (on a break at the second job) or a recording of mama reading a bedtime story or something.

If it can't be helped, it can't be helped, but it's silly to just give up "oh well, this'll just make him cranky tomorrow, nothing to be done" or worse, what the mom seems to be doing, see the crankiness as random chance with no reason.

So yes, the next time he comes in cranky, I'd comment that his crankiness seems to be tied to having spent the night away from home and suggest that she may want to talk with his aunt about helping him get more sleep.

(And really, for going out, she could start her night at 8 or 9pm quite easily so I'm not sure why she isn't getting her ds to bed at aunties house anyway, but that I wouldn't mention at all.)


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## eunytuny (Jan 19, 2007)

As long as your words come from a place of love and concern, a rational in tune parent would be receptive. I wouldn't sit her down and say "there is something we need to talk about...". I'd wait till she brought the subject up.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oursweetboys* 
Who cares if she takes offense to it? So should we only consider the feelings of the parent at the absolute exclusion of the child's?

I think so.







It's her child and she is the one who has to parent the child 24/7. When it comes down to it, it's really not anyone elses business how she parents unless she is physically abusing the child. She doesn't seem to be hurting the child.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
I think so.







It's her child and she is the one who has to parent the child 24/7.









: 24/7?


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## claras_mom (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaughterOfKali* 
I used to work in a day care center as well as being a teacher in private schools.

When we noticed recurring aggressive or clingy/crying behavior, we would ask the parent if she/he could work with us on trying to find the cause/solution. Ask if the parent would like to set up a meeting with you. That puts it in her/his court.

This, I think, is the best approach.


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## JSerene (Nov 4, 2004)

I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but have you considered cultural differences? A friend of mine sent her young child to Africa for a year to live with his aunties and this was considered completely normal, though I couldn't imagine it. For some, spending tons of time at an aunts or a grandma's isn't anything to blink an eye at.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

I think that if you say something, even mild, to the effect of "I've noticed he's crankier when you've been out" it will be taken as judgemental. Even if you mean it in a kind way.

If you feel obliged to say something, then I would wait until the next time she comments on his behavior, just ask something like "why do you think he's been so clingy/moody lately? Do you think there's anything that could be upsetting him?" (or questions of a similar nature). Even if she doesn't give you the answer right then, she might start thinking about it and come to the answer on her own.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaChicken* 
My nanny has brought things up to me before - "your DS is a little crankier when your DH has to remind him (not so gently) about his chores" or "DD has some real behavior issues on the mornings you leave without waking her up first". Sometimes it is hard to hear, but I need the feedback or nothing would change.

I agree, I have a child in daycare,and although some things are hard to swallow; and others may be totally off base, having open communication is important to see if changes need to be made. After all my kids happiness and wellbeing comes before my own.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippiechickinsing* 
I would approach it by asking about the routine on the nights someone else cares for him. You have concerns about his mood/behavior on the days after he's been in alternative care. I think this is a legitimate concern and does not suggest any judgment of the mother on your part, just a desire to work together for the happiness and health of the child in your care.

This is good! Really good advice. I am a single mother (and a nanny), and like the poster after the post I quoted, I would be happy for detailed feedback from my child care provider (I don't have one, but if I did, I would). But many people would not. It's very touchy. That's why the above advice is so good, because it's coming at it from a different angle. It's not saying you need to change or anything like that. It's saying how can we make what you want to do work better.

And the comment about it being her (the mother) that has to deal with her child 24/7, is obviously not true if the boy is in daycare 8-9 hours of the day, traveling at least one hour and spending 2-4 nights at his aunt's house. It's everyone else that is suffering from her neglecting her son. They are the ones that have to deal with him. It sounds like she is mainly just ferrying him around. (that sounds really harsh, I don't know her or the situation at all, so I'm just saying this hypothetically not actually about this woman in particular).


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