# 18 year old slob



## kiddoe390 (May 8, 2013)

My daughter who is 18 moved in with myself and my fiance about a year and a half ago because her father lost his house and he moved in with his parents and left my daughter to fend for herself.

When she moved in she came with 3 lizards which I did not mind. She then snuck in 2 Prairie Dogs ( NEVER EVER let your child have a prairie dogs for a pet. NASTY!!! ) I harped on her to return them and that did not happen. She then snuck in a Ferret. After several shouting matches she reluctantly gave up the prairie dogs. The loft area was pretty big so she felt the need to pack as many lizards, clothes, shoes and trash that she could into that area of the apartment. My daughter was provided a dresser and a walk in closet that was huge for all her clothes. My fiance would wash and fold her clothes and lay them on the corner of her bed so she could hang them up. Well that did not happen. The clothes ended up on the floor dirty AGAIN.

We moved into a condo that was alot nicer than the apartment. We made it perfectly clear to her that she was to keep her room clean and trash off of the floor and no dirty dishes lying around. New home, new start right? Wrong!

It finally came to a head on Sunday. My fiance has been terrific up until Sunday. He stated enough is enough she is 18 and she needs to clean up after herself. He asked her politely that she was going to be out of school soon and that she really needs to be picking up after herself. She got upset and stated all we do is nit pick her and that she goes to school and she works and she doesnt have time to do what we are asking of her. Her schedule is 7:40 to 2:30 ( school ) 3:00 to 6:00 work. then her whole evening is free. She does have time to clean her lizard and the ferret cages so they dont stink. It would take her a total of 1 hour to clean and feed all of her animals and that would be considered a spotless clean.

My fiance does all of the cooking, most of the laundry and house cleaning. He feels as though my daughter is using him and he is getting tired of it. It has come to the point that our relationship is in jeopardy and I am at my wits end. I do not know what to do. Taking away her phone and car plus grounding her has not worked. I dont want to loose either one of them. I am lways put in the middle. It s a power struggle between the fiance and daughter. My daughter has told me several times that he is not her dad and she doesnt have to listen to him but she doesnt listen to me either. HELP!!!!!


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## DHinJersey (Jan 11, 2013)

Get rid of the animals. Your daughter clearly has no business caring for them.

I was a slob at eighteen. My mom let me get away with it. I remained a slob all through college and my 20s and when I began living with my now wife it was a huge area of stress on our relationship that took years to improve.

I don't know that I have advice, and I would never say to threaten to kick her out over this, but I think you are well within your rights to go into her room while she is gone and collect all the animals, and see if you can donate them to a pet store or something.


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## kiddoe390 (May 8, 2013)

Was there something going on in your life that made you slob?
I agree the animals will be a start, but I truly believe there is something else going on. Like maybe the beginning of a hoarder. I just can not believe there isn't an underlying issue for her to be that way.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

"Her whole evening is free"? Does she have homework? What kind of student is she? How was your relationship with her before this happened?

I would think she should set aside time each week to clean cages. If she's not willing or able to do that, then the pets should either be your responsibility, or be given new homes. It's not fair to the animals to be not cared for properly.

Hoarder? Too many people are throwing that term around nowadays. And labeling doesn't help. She's your daughter. Sit down with her, go over the rules. Make sure your expectations are reasonable, and listen to her needs, too. Maybe both of you need to make some changes.

It sort of sounds like as soon as school is over you'll be kicking her out. Honestly, if that's how it feels to her, I can understand simply taking advantage of the situation without trying to get along. I would feel unwanted, and unwilling to try to get along. I hope I am wrong about your intentions.


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## DHinJersey (Jan 11, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiddoe390*
> 
> Was there something going on in your life that made you slob?
> I agree the animals will be a start, but I truly believe there is something else going on. Like maybe the beginning of a hoarder. I just can not believe there isn't an underlying issue for her to be that way.


Honestly, she sounds like a pretty normal teenager. Most of them are slobs. Maybe her father tolerated it and she developed bad habits?

I do agree that she doesn't necessarily have all that much time to clean cages...which is why she should ditch the pets. I mean, not to be a speciesist, but do people really get attached to lizards and ferrets? I guess some do.


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## DHinJersey (Jan 11, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiddoe390*
> 
> Was there something going on in your life that made you slob?
> I agree the animals will be a start, but I truly believe there is something else going on. Like maybe the beginning of a hoarder. I just can not believe there isn't an underlying issue for her to be that way.


Also, as for causes, my wife has suggested minor ADD many times, but no doctor has yet seen fit to treat me as such (and as someone trying to complete a dissertation, I don't think I'd mind a little Adderall, bad as that sounds).


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## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

My son and youngest daughter are slobs. My oldest daughter is a neat freak, like their father. He has always cleaned up after them, after ranting and raving. He still does it. IMO, you need to let her wallow in her own filth and close the door. Eventually she will pick up her things. What she is doing is working for her; someone else cleans up and she only has to put up with a little scolding.

When I want my two slobs to clean up, I tie the cleaning to something they want; for example, my youngest will have plans to go to a friends house- I tell her she can go when the room is clean. My son wants to play video games- only when his room is picked up. Now, the rooms are not always what we call "Daddy" clean, but it does keep them from getting too bad.


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## kiddoe390 (May 8, 2013)

My daughter is a really good kid. She is in an excel program in school and when she graduates she will have 10 college credits. My relationship is good with her until I tell her she "has" to do something, it goes in one ear and out the other. I do not have any help from her father. She complains to him and he tells her it's ok not to listen to me that I'm just being a b----. She is resentful of the fact that I have a fiancé. Her thought on the matter is he is not going to replace my dad and I will never listen to him. My fiancé has bent over backwards to try and get along with her even trying to buy her love only to be pushed aside. I have two older boys who are Ok with the fact that I am with someone else. I have been separated for 10 years and divorced for 5 years, I have only had 1 boyfriend since I left my husband. I have always put the kids first as far as my personal life was concerned. I was focused on raising my kids and making sure they made good grades and stayed out of trouble.
I love all three of my kids very much and have no intentions of kicking her out. I don't think I am asking too much of her. She does not have to clean the house, dishes, nothing but her room. Make sure her dirty dishes are put in the sink or dishwasher so we don't have bugs are and other unwanted pests.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Just give her her space and leave it be. It can't be "her" room if she has to keep it to up to someone else's standards. School full time followed by 3 hours of work is a lot. That's like a 10 1/2 hour work day! I wouldn't be coming home and spending an hour cleaning after that kind of day. Just ask her to pick up after herself in the public areas of the home. Tell your fiance not to do things like laundry for her if it is going to make him feel resentful.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I am not naturally a tidy person. Learning to keep house so that it was a reasonable place for my children to grow up was something that I really had to work at (I used Flylady.net to get my act together). One of my kids is naturally fairly organized (she takes after her father), one is like me. So there is no judgment here for being unable to keep things under control without real help.

I made a system for my kids that is a simplified system of what I use myself. They have a list of what they need to do every day, and a list of what they need to do once a week.

The daily list looks brutal, but since they do it every day, most of the items only take a second so the whole list usually takes less than 20 minutes (I cut and pasted, so the formatting is odd):

*Bathroom*


Check supplies-TP, hand soap, etc.
Towels are neatly hung
Trash isn't running over
Floor is clear
Counter is tidy
Bathroom smells clean and fresh.
*Bedroom*


Make bed
Top of dresser and other flat surfaces are tidy
Floor is clear
Trash can isn't running over.
*Pets*


Cats and dogs have food and water
Cat box is scooped
Fish are fed and have light on
*Miscellaneous*


Dirty dishes are in the dishwasher
Trash is in the trash can
Recycling is rinsed and is drying

Part of it is because they both get home before me, and I used to walk in and they would be playing around on the internet while watching Dr. Who, and their bathroom was gross and pets didn't have water.

The Weekly List has to be done by Friday evening:


Change Sheets and Towels
Empty Trash
Vinegar Cleaner - mirror, counter top, tub/shower, etc
Dust - top of dresser, headboard, shelves, etc.
Clean Toilet, inside and out
Refill Toilet Paper Holder
Wash reusable bathroom cup
Sweep and Mop Bathroom
Vacuum Bedroom

They put their and towels in the wash, and do the rest of the stuff while it washes.

They also do their own laundry on the weekend, but the timing of that is at their own discretion.

Part of it for me is that they will be leaving home in a few years and they need to KNOW how to clean up after themselves and maintain a decent place to live. I don't believe we do our teens any favors by doing things for them that they can do for themselves, such as laundry. Or not teaching them how to clean a bathroom, or that it won't kill them to clean a toilet.

"Pick up after yourself" isn't something that my children really grasp, but they do well with a list to put their dishes in the dish washer, throw away their trash, and rinse their recycling. They need a checklist.

I think that part of the problem for us naturally messy people (including most teens) is that we let things get too bad before doing anything, so then it is completely overwhelming and we can't even figure out where to start. The daily list gets away from that. The floor gets picked up every day, so then vacuuming once a week is no big deal.

BTW, before anyone jumps all over me and tells me how evil I am, that their rooms are their own, blah blah blah, you should know that we have 3 cats (one of whom loves to pee on piles of dirty clothes or stray damp towels) and 2 dogs (one of whom sheds constantly). We have 3 options here:

1. We could get rid of the pets (which no one wants to do),

2.We could live in a really, really gross house (they wouldn't mind, but I don't want to do),

3. Every one can just put their stuff where it goes. (if it's that big of a problem for them, then may be they have too much stuff!)

Anyway, if their daily list isn't done when I get home (or at an agreed upon other time), the slacker teen has no TV or internet for the evening (this has only happened once). If the weekly list isn't done by Friday evening, then no going out PLUS no TV or internet until its done.

They just do it so they can get on with their lives (or with watching Dr. Who).


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It sounds to me like she has challenging classes, and probably lots of homework. So, her schedule is school, then work, then homework. I think she deserves some slack. Get her a basket for her clean clothes to be put in until she has time to put them away. Make sure she keeps food out of her room, if she's not conscientious about taking the dirty dishes and or leftovers to the kitchen, and insist upon a weekly cleanup of her room (including animals). Anything else is a bit much.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree w/ DHinJersey that you should consider getting rid of the animals. She needs to keep her animals clean and cared for and if she doesn't you will have to give them away/take them to an animal shelter. Ir is unhygienic and cruel to keep them in dirty cages. If she is so busy w/ school and work commitments to keep them properly, then she has no business keeping them.

I agree w/ Linda that she probably needs a list of things to remind her to clean & that yourWHOLE family institute a core-chart so your fiance is not the only person responsible for all the housework and that she (and her sibs) know what is expected.

You need to have some consequences if she does not follow through. Do you give her pocket money, rides in the car to places she likes? Does she have computer time or a phone that could be rationed based on good behavior?


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I do not know what to say. I told my son at 16 that the Laundry Fairy has left the building. If he leaves drying pans he used for his breakfast on the counter , I just move them into the sink, untill he runs out of frying pans. It works great.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I kind of have to agree that your daughter likely has less free time than you think. Also, unless someone has actually taught her how to "pick up after yourself", she may not know what that actually means. The list posted above is great way to help her. As is showing her how it's done by douig it together the first few times. Has anyone helped her learn how to be a good and responsible pet owner?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiddoe390*
> 
> *My fiance does all of the cooking, most of the laundry and house cleaning.* He feels as though my daughter is using him and he is getting tired of it. It has come to the point that our relationship is in jeopardy and I am at my wits end. I do not know what to do. Taking away her phone and car plus grounding her has not worked. I dont want to loose either one of them. I am lways put in the middle. It s a power struggle between the fiance and daughter. My daughter has told me several times that he is not her dad and she doesnt have to listen to him but she doesnt listen to me either. HELP!!!!!


I'm curious - if he does all of that... what do you do around the house? (Not being mean.) Perhaps your daughter is following your lead?


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## greenemami (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm kind of shocked that people think she should be exempt from cleaning up after herself or that if it is "her room," she can leave it filthy (OP said there is trash everywhere, not just clean clothes on the floor). She is 18 years old-there is no reason I can see that your fiance should be doing her laundry or cleaning up after her. Presumably she will be off on her own in the next few years, so now is the time for her learn to pick up after herself.

My kids are naturally clutter-y. Their room is often covered in toys/clothes (they are 3 and 6 btw). We talk a lot about how this is how things get lost or broken. Could your daughter perhaps relate to this? Have there been times she couldn't find a favorite shirt or other item? While I'll allow this sort of clutter temporarily, I do not allow food/trash in the rooms at all-does she not understand the threat of smells, ants, etc? We live in the country, so leaving food lying around is a great way to attrack bugs/mice, but maybe this isn't an issue for you.

I would stop doing her laundry. Warn her your fiance is no longer going to do it, offer to show her how to work the washing machine/dryer, and then just stop. Stop giving her money so she can't run off and buy new things once all hers are dirty or if they get lost in the mess. Require her to remove all dirty dishes/trash from her room before she gets the car/allowance, whatever. Compromise that she can keep clothes/stuff however she wants to so long as she is doing her own laundry and health hazards are removed (trash, dirty dishes). It will only take her a few minutes to do this. You are not being mean, you are teaching her how to take care of herself, which at 18 years old, is pretty important.


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## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

I was a slob until my late 20's. Becoming a mom started me on my journey to LEARNING how to keep a house clean and now, 2 years later, expecting my second I still struggle. I grew up in a very loving home where my parents had a very solid marriage and they were together until the day my dad passed away. The thing is, my mom (who did 95% of the cleaning) never involved me because it was quicker for her to just do it herself. She would get frustrated, yell a bit but never sit me down and help me learn how to clean or do my laundry or look after my own things. I was a straight A student, never got in trouble, really didn't act out but I was absolutely clueless about how to keep my things clean. Here's what I would do as someone who wishes she had more guidance:
Sit down and explain the expectations:
1) The pets need to be properly looked after (detail HOW and how often) or they can't stay because it's unhealthy for the animals. Give a deadline, like the next two weeks is probation and if the pets aren't looked after routinely then they find a new home.
2) all glasses/plates etc stay in the common area so they don't pile up or get lost. Everyone uses them so they stay where everyone can access them. She's welcome to take/keep her water bottle wherever she wants. This should minimize food mess.
3) she does her own laundry. Give her a hamper and a laundry basket and show her the ropes. If she doesn't have clean clothes it's her responsibility and she can't complain.
4) she takes her own trash out of her room.

Now give her space to figure it out. Not having dishes and cups in her room along with her taking out her trash should eliminate the food/pest issue. She will quickly see that if she lets her clean and dirty laundry mingle then it's more work. She has a ton of demands on her time (full time school, homework/studying and a part time job is a lot, she also needs to socialize and unwind) and the freedom/responsibility to take care of her own space will hopefully help her put it all together. As long as there's no discarded food in the room and her animals are clean and healthy I think that's a reasonable compromise. There's a huge difference between filthy and messy and while I dont think you should enable the former, the latter is perfectly tolerable in a space you don't have to look at. Remember that she's going through a tough adjustment. Fair or not, her feelings about you being in another relationship are not uncommon and she didn't ask for any of the turmoil in her life. I hope this helps, and honestly I wish this is what my mom did with me when I started high school.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *greenemami*
> 
> I'm kind of shocked that people think she should be exempt from cleaning up after herself or that if it is "her room," she can leave it filthy (OP said there is trash everywhere, not just clean clothes on the floor). She is 18 years old-there is no reason I can see that your fiance should be doing her laundry or cleaning up after her. Presumably she will be off on her own in the next few years, so now is the time for her learn to pick up after herself.


It's not a matter of thinking she should be "exempt." It's a matter of thinking she should be given space to become responsible. If asking her to do things makes her resistant and angry, then nagging isn't effective and is damaging the mother daughter relationship. Another approach needs to be taken. If dp feels bad about doing her laundry he should leave it for her to do. She'll wash her clothes if she has nothing to wear. No one said otherwise. No one is advocating encouraging the fiance to act the martyr. Other than the pets being taken care of or rehomed, she should be allowed some time and space to become personally responsible for her things. Step one of that is ownership. Treating her as a child and giving her chore charts is a really strange thing to do to an 18 yo.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

And since this was not being asked from her all along, it will take her extra time. And let's face it, it's the end of the school year -- finals are approaching and need to be her top priority! It seems reasonable to wait until after school is out for piling extra work on her. Taking care of the animals and no food in the room need to be implemented now. The rest seems like it can wait a couple more weeks or a month, for school to be over. And if the fiance is doing everyone's laundry, hers should be included until school is out. Just buy a basket to put the clean stuff in, for now.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> It's not a matter of thinking she should be "exempt." It's a matter of thinking she should be given *space to become responsible.* If asking her to do things makes her resistant and angry, then nagging isn't effective and is damaging the mother daughter relationship. Another approach needs to be taken. If dp feels bad about doing her laundry he should leave it for her to do. She'll wash her clothes if she has nothing to wear. No one said otherwise. No one is advocating encouraging the fiance to act the martyr. Other than the pets being taken care of or rehomed, she should be allowed some time and space to become personally responsible for her things. Step one of that is ownership. *Treating her as a child and giving her chore charts is a really strange thing* to do to an 18 yo.


I totally disagree with you because this approach wouldn't work for me. I don't mean as a parent, but as a person. Keeping house was not intuitive for me, and frankly, I think my mother did a piss poor job of raising me partly because she completely failed to teach me to do laundry, clean a bathroom, keep supplies filled, etc. I went into adulthood with zero skills because my mother hired a house cleaner and did the rest herself. She was just too lazy and perfectionist to bother to raise me to be an independent adult.

None of this came naturally to me. I lived in chaos for years, which eventually came to a head after the birth of my second child. Oh my god. It was bad.









I wanted a tidy and well run home for the sake of my sweet babies, and I worked and I tried, but it was always a mess.

I didn't need space to become responsible, I needed to *learn a skill.*

I use a system (which I referenced earlier) that includes a morning routine, an evening routine, a weekly errand list, a once a week list, etc. I made a modified system based on this for my kiddos. All our routines are kept together in sheet protectors in the kitchen. I'm NOT treating my teens like children -- I've set them up with the exact same system I use myself. I've also got everything written down so that I'm not nagging -- they can just consult list. It makes it a lot more independent for them than mommy random declaring a room to be "clean enough" or "not clean enough."

I'm not treating my teens as children, I'm treating them like competent humans preparing to live on their own. With a few additions, they could take their list with them when they leave home and be immediately able to take care of an apartment.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> And since this was not being asked from her all along, it will take her extra time. And let's face it, it's the end of the school year -- finals are approaching and need to be her top priority! It seems reasonable to wait until after school is out for piling extra work on her. Taking care of the animals and no food in the room need to be implemented now. The rest seems like it can wait a couple more weeks or a month, for school to be over. And if the fiance is doing everyone's laundry, hers should be included until school is out. Just buy a basket to put the clean stuff in, for now.


She is 18 and a legal adult. I cannot image waiting one more day to put her in charge of her own possessions. She needs a detailed list BECAUSE this hasn't be required all along, and perhaps starting on a weekend would make more sense than a weekday. But living in filth should come to an end for her immediately, and all maid services need to stop.

(Her list doesn't need to be the same as my kids -- it should fit her specific situation and what her parent feels is reasonable for her. I included my list to show the level of detail. Sadly, my kids needed to have "Check supplies-TP, hand soap, etc." added to their list because they would come to the end of a TP role, and just leave it there empty. But a list for another teen could be very different depending on the situation)

This young woman treats the fiance really bad:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiddoe390*
> He feels as though my daughter is using him and he is getting tired of it. It has come to the point that our relationship is in jeopardy and I am at my wits end....It s a power struggle between the fiance and daughter. My daughter has told me several times that he is not her dad and she doesnt have to listen to him but she doesnt listen to me either. HELP!!!!!


The notion that he owes her anything is completely misguided. The PARENT needs to teach her to do her laundry. Laundry is easy and, honestly, not very time consuming. It's a non-activity.

1. Put the clothes in the washer with detergent, press buttons. (how long does that take, 5 minutes? 7 minutes?)

2. Washer does the work for 40 minutes or so, while teen studies or watches Dr. Who.

3. Move clothes to dryer and press buttons (this is a biggy, at least 1-2 minutes)

4. Dryer does work for 40 minutes or so, while teen studies or watches Dr. Who.

5. Get clothes out of dryer and put them away -- all in one go. Could be 10 or 15 minutes. Just take the basket to the room, and hang or fold and immediately put away. This is the most time consuming step, but if you use a timer and see how little time it actually takes, you may be surprised. It just ain't that long.

I recommend doing this with the teen for the first few weeks, until they have it down. Folding was tricky for my kids (of course, they were 12 when they learned, so may be an 18 year old could pick it up in one week)

I feel that laundry is a non-activity because most of the time you are doing it, you can do something else. One can easily do their own laundry while studying for finals.

Its also a really easy thing to do. My special needs teen as been doing her own laundry since she was 12. I had therapist beat it into me that the degree to which she developed independence and life skills during the tweens and teens would have a massive effect on what adulthood looked like for her, so we just keep working on new skills. She's awesome. The notion that a bright 18 year old can't handle this is very badly misguided. You are selling the kid short!

I think it is foolish to expect someone to do something that they have never been taught to do. Taking care of one's space and things is a skill, and I think it is part of our job as parents to make sure our kids develop these skills before they leave home. The high school years are perfect for this. We teach skills by modeling them, breaking them into steps, providing space to practice, etc.

We are supposed to be working ourselves out of a job as a parent!


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

While I agree with Linda about the skills needing to be taught, the timing is poor. Right at senior year finals is not the right time to add to her stress by insisting she learn new skills. If it was sophomore or even junior year, I'd be more in agreement. Senior year is different, because those final exam grades will be influencing her college entrance or job future. Why jeopardize her future over laundry. It just doesn't make sense.


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## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

Linda- I really like your list. I am adapting it for the summer; I teach summer school and my kids are home most days until I get home (around noon). Last summer DH was out of work, so he cleaned, but I told them I am NOT coming home to a trashed house every day. If they want to go hang out with friends or do things, they will have to do some chores first. Thanks so much for posting it!


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## DHinJersey (Jan 11, 2013)

Actually, I think finals during senior year are the least important exams of ones academic life. As far as I recall, anyway!


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It would really depend on what she has planned. If she's going to college and been accepted, then finals are not as important. If, because of changing homes, she plans to apply for a full time job or college in the summer, then senior finals will be looked at to see if she finishes strong.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I do not know what to say. I told my son at 16 that the Laundry Fairy has left the building. If he leaves drying pans he used for his breakfast on the counter , I just move them into the sink, untill he runs out of frying pans. It works great.


Hmm. This doesn't work in my home because I need the frying pan. We don't have enough pans to 'run out' of. We have two pans, one large one small, and it's only considerate that they be clean and put away when I go to start cooking. Or when anyone else in the home needs to cook, for that matter.

So I keep at it, reminding them each and every time they forget, to clean the pots and pans they use when they cook for themselves (yay for cooking for themselves!). It's pretty galling when they say, "Sorry, I forgot" because I know full well they haven't forgotten. But usually they do jump up and get to cleaning. Something about having the good grace to be a bit ashamed, maybe.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Anyway, if their daily list isn't done when I get home (or at an agreed upon other time), the slacker teen has no TV or internet for the evening (this has only happened once). If the weekly list isn't done by Friday evening, then no going out PLUS no TV or internet until its done.
> 
> They just do it so they can get on with their lives (or with watching Dr. Who).


I really like your list, and we have a similar one. Perhaps even more so, I appreciate that your kids are motivated by watching Doctor Who.









This is neither here nor there for the OP, but I particularly fail with follow-through and consequences. I just don't want to deal with the argument and confrontation, of which 18 y.o. dd has always been particularly talented. And now I regret it and we're all dealing with the consequences. I've taken to bribery, $20 a month if they keep to their daily list, without being reminded. This works pretty well for 13 y.o. ds. Dd might be holding out for more money. Pfh.

Anyway, I decided to ignore the "you shouldn't be bribing your kids to do what they're supposed to be doing anyway' philosophy because that isn't working for us. The $20 IS working, at least for ds, and I really, really want them to learn how to do these things. If the routine is sinking into their heads, something they can follow when they're adults and deciding they want their own clean homes, then I count it as a success.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *greenemami*
> 
> Stop giving her money so she can't run off and buy new things once all hers are dirty or if they get lost in the mess.


Hmmm. This is obvious, typing it out, but it hasn't been obvious to me. I think next time dd asks me to buy clothes for her I'm going to require her to pick up, sort and take stock of all of her existing clothing. Even if she doesn't find what she needs on her bedroom floor, the clothes will be picked up.

My kids both have too much stuff.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DHinJersey*
> 
> Actually, I think finals during senior year are the least important exams of ones academic life. As far as I recall, anyway!


I hear that junior year grades are more important than senior year. I have no idea why. Don't tell my daughter this. She's in her senior year and getting the best grades she's ever had. She's very pleased, and I'm excited for her.

OP regarding your dh and you dd's relationship, I hope he can take a big step back from the dynamic, and shut it down. And he definitely shouldn't be trying to buy her respect or love or whatever. One thing that might help is if you refuse to let her link keeping her room neat with her feelings about your divorce and remarriage. Or maybe you are the one linking the two? Address them separately. She IS capable of taking good care of her stuff.

Edited for grammar.


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## DHinJersey (Jan 11, 2013)

Usually it is because kids are already accepted to their college of choice by then. I think if that isn't the case then senior year is MOST important, now that I think of it.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> If it was sophomore or even junior year, I'd be more in agreement. Senior year is different, because those final exam grades will be influencing her college entrance or job future. Why jeopardize her future over laundry. It just doesn't make sense.


College entrance was settled months ago. If she is going anyplace other than community college, that is already all settled. If it is community college, then her grades don't matter.

She doesn't know how to do laundry, much less how to do laundry and study and at same time right now, and therefore *she ain't ready for college* (even though she is already earning college credits!). I think a parent should be walking her through how to do her laundry (which she can do while studying).


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DHinJersey*
> 
> Usually it is because kids are already accepted to their college of choice by then. I think if that isn't the case then senior year is MOST important, now that I think of it.


That is the point I was trying to make. Thanks for the assist.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

I agree with 4evermom. My teenagers are slobs, too, and their rooms are their personal space. I declare a clean up day periodically, and make sure that at least once or twice a month they get things clean and tidy, sheets changed, etc, but otherwise I don't micromanage them. I also don't do their laundry- that's their job. I really believe in letting them have control over their own lives as much as is reasonably possible, and it has been working out very well, for the most part.

Reminds me of what a good friend said years ago when I was telling her my kids' messy rooms were stressing me out. She said, "that's why God made doors."









Good luck with your daughter!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> I agree with 4evermom. My teenagers are slobs, too, and their rooms are their personal space. I declare a clean up day periodically, and make sure that at least once or twice a month they get things clean and tidy, sheets changed, etc


I really don't see how that is any different on a philosophical level than what I do -- you do require your children to clean up their rooms and change sheets. It isn't "their" room to the point that they are allowed to live in filth.

The difference between what you and I do is that I'm very clear about my expectations up front, while you decide randomly what is "too messy, " and that I set the bar higher for what is acceptable. Both of us require our children clean up, and both of us have systems that work well for our own families.









I started off feeling that since my kids' rooms were "their rooms" that they could keep them how they wanted, and it just didn't pan out for us. Partly because they are both such slobs if left to themselves, and partly because me randomly stating that things have gone over the top is more difficult for my children than having a list of what they are to do. One of my DDs especially needs things to be cut and dry, and very clearly broken down into steps. Doing what works for your family didn't work for mine.







With my system, I don't ever tell my kids their rooms are too messy, or tell them what they have left to do. I'm out of it. They just read through their list.

But my kids rooms ARE still their own. One just got new bedroom furniture that she picked out herself, and her room is decorated exactly to her taste and personality. She and I worked together on the types of organization and storage that would really work for her. My other DD and I just started on the same process for her room. (They've gown up a lot since the last time we did this). They both are allowed to hang out in their bedrooms, have snacks or drinks in their bedrooms, etc. They have a lot of privacy and they enjoy their spaces. Being required to hang up their towels doesn't make it any less "their space."

One of them tried to convince me that the way she kept her room was a form of self expression, but I don't believe that throwing clothes on the floor and leaving trash laying expresses one's self. You wanna express yourself? Paint. Write. Create something new that never existed.

Oddly, the more organized her room is, the more creative she is. Because she can find her art supplies and has space to actually do things!


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Nope. The difference is that you micromanage, and I don't.









But thanks for the criticism.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Hmm. She described how she has taken herself out of the equation altogether. That seems like the opposite of micromanagement. She's not looking over their shoulders telling them how to pick up their clothes. She defined what needs to be done and has left it for them to do.

On the other hand, Linda, you might have stopped at your first sentence there.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I think it *is* micromanaging, since she is deciding that certain areas must be "tidy" in their personal areas. That's micromanaging. Personal areas should have more person control over the appearance. And she has *not* removed herself, since she is checking to see if the work is done. Also, either way there is subjective review. Each person's definition of "tidy" is unique.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Okay. I think the important difference is between our children. My children are different from your children, who are different from Linda's children. Linda has explained that one of her children especially benefits from a more explicit, structured plan. Your child is not the same, and you know what you and your child are comfortable with. Micromanagement is obviously a negative description.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Yeah, I see your point, but it was extremely rude for her to make a statement that targets another's methods as inferior to hers, and by doing that she opened herself up to criticism.

For the record, I don't advocate randomly and arbitrarily springing surprise expectations on unwitting children. I don't dictate to my kids what "tidy" is, I just provide occasional reminders that we need to clean up so that our personal spaces will be pleasant to live in. I respect their ability to set standards for themselves, while realizing that sometimes they do require a little external motivation.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Hmm. She described how she has taken herself out of the equation altogether. That seems like the opposite of micromanagement. She's not looking over their shoulders telling them how to pick up their clothes. She defined what needs to be done and has left it for them to do.


yeah, that's really it. Since the thread is now a debate about whether or not I micromanage my kiddos, I decided to look it up and see exactly what it means before responding.

Quote: 
http://www.yourdictionary.com/micromanage


> transitive verb micromanaged, micromanaging
> 
> to manage or control very closely, as by making decisions about even the smallest details, often so as to be regarded as acting inefficiently or counterproductively


That's not what I did at all. I made up a list, which was really based on the big problems (some of which are serious because they are compounded by our pets) and I put the list in a place where my kids can always find it. I went through it with them the first couple of days and clarified things, but that was really that. I spot check (stick my head in their doors) some days. But they run system on their own without much from me at this point. I could fall over dead and they could still do the same things, which to a certain extent, I think they would because now that they live in a tidy space, they've found that they like it.

I'm not micromanaging. I *taught* them how to keep their rooms tidy. I didn't leave it for them to figure out, because we tried that and it didn't work here.

Quote:


> transitive verb taught, teaching
> 
> 
> to show or help (a person) to learn (how) to do something: to teach a child (how) to swim
> ...


I posted the list and explained our system because I thought it would help the OPer. Remember the OPer?? She has pets in her home that are forced to live in their own feces and urine. The situation is totally out of control. While I do understand that other, less specific and formal systems work well for some families, I think that is obviously not the case for the OPer.

This was a big issue for us for a while, and we've done some real work on it. What we are doing now works really beautiful for us (partly because it really suits my kids). I'm not saying it the only way, or the right way, I'm saying for a family who is struggling with this, it's something that is worth trying.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Each person's definition of "tidy" is unique.


I don't think that we define "tidy" differently. I think we all know when a room is tidy and when it isn't. Rather, I think we all have different standards for what is "tidy ENOUGH." I suspect every parent on this thread has a bottom for how dirty/filthy their kids' rooms can get before something has to happen. That's a different spot for many of us, which is fine. I'm not saying what the line for should for another parent for tidy ENOUGH. It's up to you. But when you figure out what that line is for, if you and your teen are having a struggle, *writing it down in list might help.*


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I really don't see how that is any different on a philosophical level than what I do -- you do require your children to clean up their rooms and change sheets. It isn't "their" room to the point that they are allowed to live in filth.
> 
> The difference between what you and I do is that I'm very clear about my expectations up front, while you decide randomly what is "too messy, " and that I set the bar higher for what is acceptable.


This was the snarkiness I was responding to. First, it sounds like you think after your post any others were superfluous, and others shouldn't bother adding their thoughts. Then, you directly compared our "philosophies" and found mine inferior. If you don't like the subsequent tone the thread has taken, you shouldn't have been rude in the first place.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

We had lizards. Their cages did NOT need to be cleaned daily. Weekly sufficed. And ferrets? Stink. No matter how often you clean their home. So maybe OP needs to educate herself what needs to be done, and then educate her daughter.

Did I miss the response to my comment that maybe kiddo is taking after Mom? Since the boyfriend seems to be doing all the housework.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I posted the list and explained our system because I thought it would help the OPer. Remember the OPer?? She has pets in her home that are forced to live in their own feces and urine. *The situation is totally out of control*. While I do understand that other, less specific and formal systems work well for some families, I think that is obviously not the case for the OPer.


We really don't know that. The OP seems to think that clean clothes that have fallen on the floor need to be rewashed. We have no clue to the extent that she may be exaggerating because she is frustrated. We have no clue if she is a bit OCD and if she sees the tiniest bit of dust and clutter as filth and hoarding.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> This was the snarkiness I was responding to. First, it sounds like you think after your post any others were superfluous, and others shouldn't bother adding their thoughts. Then, you directly compared our "philosophies" and found mine inferior. If you don't like the subsequent tone the thread has taken, you shouldn't have been rude in the first place.


I pointed out a flaw in your logic. I didn't attack you or say that your way was inferior. I said:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Both of us require our children clean up, and both of us have systems that work well for our own families.


That's not snarky or rude. You require your children clean their rooms and change the sheets, and you do it in a way that works for your family.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> We really don't know that. The OP seems to think that clean clothes that have fallen on the floor need to be rewashed. We have no clue to the extent that she may be exaggerating because she is frustrated. We have no clue if she is a bit OCD and if she sees the tiniest bit of dust and clutter as filth and hoarding.


Depending on how long its been since the floor was cleaned, how many dirty clothes got mixed in with the clean ones, if some stinky gym shoes were thrown on top, how much trash/dirty dishes/pet hair were in the mix, they may have NEEDED to be washed. When things are really out of control, clothes that haven't been worn can need to be laundered, and things are really out of control in this young woman's room.

From the OP:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiddoe390*
> 
> ... The loft area was pretty big so she felt the need to pack as many lizards, clothes, shoes and *trash* that she could into that area of the apartment. ...
> 
> We moved into a condo that was alot nicer than the apartment. We made it perfectly clear to her that she was to keep her room clean and *trash off of the floor and no dirty dishes lying around.* ...She does have time to clean her lizard and the ferret cages so they dont *stink*.


It sounds like a nasty, stinky mess that could easily attract bugs. It's gross. This isn't about OCD or a tiny bit of dust. (Dust was never mentioned).

We all may differ on how clean is "clean ENOUGH," but I would be really surprised if any one thinks that trash, dirty dishes and the reek of pet cages that haven't been cleaned is "clean ENOUGH."


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> When things are really out of control, clothes that haven't been worn can need to be laundered, and things are really out of control in this young woman's room.
> 
> It sounds like a nasty, stinky mess that could easily attract bugs. It's gross. This isn't about OCD or a tiny bit of dust. (Dust was never mentioned)


Still, we don't know that "things are really out of control" unless you've made a personal visit. For all we know OP could be upset about a few tissues on the floor and a few bowls on the dresser.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

And all ferets stink, no matter what you do, as another poster said.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I pointed out a flaw in your logic. I didn't attack you or say that your way was inferior.


What are you talking about? There wasn't any logic to attack in what I said that you responded to. The only possible "logic" you could be referring to was my statement that I agreed with a previous poster- which apparently you took to mean that I was agreeing with someone who was NOT you, thus disagreeing with you, and therefore wrong. The arrogance of this attitude is astounding. FWIW I didn't even read all of your first post- or any of your others because they're too verbose for my attention span- but I am offended that you took the opportunity to single me out and criticize me for doing what most on this thread were doing- offering our thoughts and experiences to the OP. You may wish to read your post again if you think you weren't rude or belittling, because clearly you were.

Sorry, OP. I only posted to try to be helpful. I should have realized that the queen of motherhood had already said all there was to say and the thread should've been locked and closed. Gonna unsub, goodnight.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> College entrance was settled months ago. If she is going anyplace other than community college, that is already all settled. If it is community college, then her grades don't matter.
> 
> She doesn't know how to do laundry, much less how to do laundry and study and at same time right now, and therefore *she ain't ready for college* (even though she is already earning college credits!). I think a parent should be walking her through how to do her laundry (which she can do while studying).


Well, actually... while admission may have already occurred, that is usually contingent on maintaining GPA. Admissions letters state this. So even if she's gotten in, her Senior finals DO matter.

You may be surprised at how many college students do not know how to do laundry. My daughter did quite well for herself first term doing/teaching kids how to do it.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Double post.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> You may be surprised at how many college students do not know how to do laundry. My daughter did quite well for herself first term doing/teaching kids how to do it.


No one ever taught me to do laundry. Yet I had no trouble washing my own clothes when I went off to college. It's rather self explanatory. Put clothes in machine, add detergent, insert quarters. People can make it all complicated and talk about fiber content and water temperature if they like. But it isn't necessary. Sure the odd item might shrink but then it doesn't fit and it's no longer an issue;-)


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Trash goes in a trash can, dirty clothes go in a hamper, and clean clothes get put away. Animal abuse/neglect will be dealt with accordingly.

The end.

The rest of it can be taught or worked on when things are not so stressful.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> No one ever taught me to do laundry. Yet I had no trouble washing my own clothes when I went off to college. It's rather self explanatory. Put clothes in machine, add detergent, insert quarters. People can make it all complicated and talk about fiber content and water temperature if they like. But it isn't necessary. Sure the odd item might shrink but then it doesn't fit and it's no longer an issue;-)


Oh, I agree! Both of mine picked it up easily early on. The only laundry that was an issue was my oldest washing the youngest's underwear. Fair enough.

But so many people do make it seem complicated, that a lot of kids at my daughter's school were lost. She made good bank doing/teaching them how to do their wash. Also got her in good with the soccer, bball and lax boys! LOL


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