# Hmph! Guess we're not using diapers anymore. - Advice needed!!



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Good grief, I was a little unprepared for this adventure in parenting.

Changing DS' diaper has become more and more challenging. It has progressed from "Hmph, this is not very fun" types of crying to "You are violating my personal integrity!" type of crying.

So, I have been working on this. I tried the talking diaper trick... that worked twice. I have tried not to make a big issue of changing the diaper if he doesn't want to, unless it's been pooped in.

This morning, DS pooped... you could smell it a mile away. So I sing and dance and use my very limited repertoire of playful parenting tactics to see if he will let the bug diaper hug him.







: This is not something that comes naturally to me, so maybe I don't do a good job. Either way, it didn't work.

After about half an hour, I finally tell DS that he doesn't have to have a new diaper, but he has pooped and I can't just leave him in his poop so we'll have to take that diaper off...

Cue the "NO!" from ds.

So, I actually had to drag him kicking and screaming onto the changing table, and he curled his whole body up and got REALLY pissed off!!! Not just annoyed or upset, but REALLY was unhappy with me and cried for a while afterwards.

So, I'd much rather clean up poop and pee from the floor than do that to him! I don't know if this is a normal 2 year old thing (he's 25 months old) or my little guy is just very adamant about his personal space.

I guess I need advice. If I just put the diapers away for a while, will it make him feel like I'm forcing THAT on him (lack of diapers)? I worry a bit that suddenly not using diapers might make him feel insecure or upset because of being a change in routine, KWIM?

And, if we aren't using diapers, I have NO IDEA what to do with him when we leave the house. And since we co-sleep... well, he usually doesn't go at night, but god help me if he does!!

I mainly want GD advice, not potty learning advice. Any ideas on how I can approach this so that elimination is somehow being dealt with, but in a way that he is going to be OK with, or at least semi OK with?

TIA for any advice, and if you have been there and done that please at least chime in to tell me it will end!!


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

if you are okay with cleaning the floor rather than changing the diapers then i think you are pretty much set, mentally. as for nights why not water proof the bed. in case he goes, you just have to wash the sheets. that is what we did (we ec'd from 4 months).

i dont have experience with PL but from all indications he is ready to ditch the diapers. you may find good support on the ec board here at MDC as well, there are many who started "late" or could otherwise give you better support. basically, going in the diaper is as unpleasant for a baby as it would be for an adult so usually you dont need to worry thatyou are 'depriving' a child of diapers esp when they themselves are expressing frustration / discontentment with the process. anyway he has the choice and could ask for them if he wanted, no?

do you have a potty or a few around the house? toilet seat inserts? i think ec and pl have a great deal in common, it is just a matter of when you start ... you will still have to clean up some messes and you will have to talk a lot about what is going on. and you probably start with wake-up pees / poops since nearly all babies go right upon waking.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

How about talking to your son and agreeing on a certain number of times a day that you will change his diaper? You could have a big sheet where you mark it off so he can see how many diaper changes he's had and how many he still has to go. Or setting a timer and only changing his diaper when the timer goes off? Have you asked him where he wants to go to have his diaper changed? How about letting him watch a video/listen to a cd during the diaper change? How about taking him outside to change his diaper (the novelty approach)? How about just changing his diaper while he does whatever it is he's doing (harder for you, of course, but maybe not so hateful for him)? How about telling him that if he goes in the potty you won't have to change his diaper?

Personally, unless you think he's ready to use the toilet, I don't think ditching diapers is the way to go. I don't think it's ok to teach a young child that they can pee or poop wherever they want just to avoid the discomfort of having to have a diaper changed.

Namaste!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

About the ECing...

We started that (late) around 15 months b/c DS (same age as OP's) was very interested in toileting. He was doing great for 2-3 months, and then suddenly, for reasons I will probably never get to know, he was terrified of peeing in the toilet and wanted diapers on all the time. So we are currently having issues with hating the diapering process _and_ rejecting the toilet - vehemently.

So, just so the early ECers know, when toddlers get used to dipes, there are other issues that can arise that wouldn't if a child used a toilet from infancy. It's not really so black and white.

All that said, I will EC any future children. I had no idea how traumatizing diapering could be. What a horrible dynamic it creates with free-spirited tots! I do believe diapering was thought up by someone from a seriously controlling parenting paradigm...


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I guess I need advice. If I just put the diapers away for a while, will it make him feel like I'm forcing THAT on him (lack of diapers)? I worry a bit that suddenly not using diapers might make him feel insecure or upset because of being a change in routine, KWIM?

And, if we aren't using diapers, I have NO IDEA what to do with him when we leave the house. And since we co-sleep... well, he usually doesn't go at night, but god help me if he does!!

I will tell you how we deal with diapers in my household, and then you can of course choose to follow this advice or not. I feel that we do practice GD, in that we never threaten, bribe, or punish our almost-two year old daughter. We all treat each other respectfully in our family, and we try not to create arbitrary rules.

That said, there are a few non-negotiables in our household, and, until she is able to use the potty, wearing a diaper is one of them. We are just very matter-of-fact and low-key about it. It sounds like this has become quite a little struggle in your household, and I would do what you can to take the "juice" out of it.

We give our daughter the choice of where she would like her diaper changed (laying down, standing up, holding onto mama, etc.) but the changing (and wearing) part is just not optional. We have our little games and songs and fun things we do during the diaper changes which usually help, but this is not a negotiation situation in our household - it's right up there with street safety, being in your carseat and wearing appropriate outerwear when we go out in the winter.

Yes, occasionally, she cries or resists. I can change her diaper in less than a minute though, and a minute of crying while I'm right with her and talking to her seems better then spending a 1/2 hour fussing and struggling over it.

I hope some of this is helpful. I know there are many parenting strategies and philosophies and I know you will find your way in a way that feels right for you and your child.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

and then suddenly, for reasons I will probably never get to know, he was terrified of peeing in the toilet and wanted diapers on all the time.
so sorry to learn you had (are still having?) such a hard time. what you describe at 15 months sounds very much like the 'potty pause' that even early-start ec'ers go through. of course, i dont know all that was going on at the time and it could be any number of things.... thanks for pointing out that ec is not black and white.









since the OP's son is over 2 yrs old, i thought that he was well past the age of potty pause. and even those who start ec early will go through ups and downs till around 20-24 months, maybe more, when suddenly they realise months have gone by without a diaper. so it is a question of slow-motion learning-to-use-the-toilet-consistently that takes about 2 years via ec, or 2 weeks in standard potty training, or maybe only 2 days if you wait long enough. whatever it is, there will be some cleaning up to do, but provided you communicate and can perceive when children are keen to learn, and above all, dont get frustrated by "misses" then chances are things will go all right. good luck.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Sounds to me like he is seriously ready to be using the toilet, or is at least done with diapers.

I find it interesting that more and more ppl do not potty train their little ones.

In every tribal area, babies are taught early not to go near where the food is prepared. It's just not sanitary. But then again, they don't use diapers, or if they do, like in MN winters, they are only used until the baby is able to crawl.

I would suggest visiting the EC forums and preparing for him to learn to use the toilet.

My dc have really liked the step stool and the small seat that fits inside the bigger one.
With my ds, I found it was easier to let him sit on the toilet backwards. Of course, there was the frequent poo smear on the seat, but that's easy enuf to wipe off than struggling with diaper changing.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Do you think he is capable of handling diapering himself with pullups? Show him how to use them, help him put the first pair on and just let it go for a day or so (making it clear that you are there to help any time he wants you to) and see what happens. I am guessing he might try to live in a very wet and poopy dipe for a day or two, but will either change himself, try using the potty, or ask for help. Or even putting the dipes/pull-ups in a spot where he can get to them and just tell him that when he wants a change to bring a dipe to you. It sounds like a control issue and maybe giving him more/all of the control will help him work it out.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I am guessing he might try to live in a very wet and poopy dipe for a day or two, but will either change himself, try using the potty, or ask for help.

That could be dangerous, as he might get an infection. He won't be at risk of infection if he goes without. In fact, he might be more inclined to use the potty or stop fighting diaper changes if he actually is able to see himself poop or pee.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Also, FYI, my dd shocked us by self potty learning at 2.5 without showing any signs and with no pushing from us. We had a stool and a little seat on the big potty in the bathroom since she was 18 months because we had a frequently visiting potty-using friend over. On Christmas day dd asked for underwear. I ran to the store and bought her some. She from that moment on has been 100% potty savvy overnight and all. There were no signs at all. so maybe even providing a small potty would be a good idea in case he decides to use it. But I would not push it at all.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That could be dangerous, as he might get an infection. He won't be at risk of infection if he goes without. In fact, he might be more inclined to use the potty or stop fighting diaper changes if he actually is able to see himself poop or pee.

I do not think there is a risk of death by infection from one or two days of less frequent diaper changes. Especially if frequent baths are offered. OTOH, there is also risk of bacteria spreading with defication happening on less-than-optimal surfaces. Actually having a toddler in the house at all is risky business. Anyway, just throwing out ideas in case the OP is not really excited about doing a daily search and destroy poop expedition in her house


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

I feel for you going through this!







And honestly, I think you're onto something with removing the diaper as long as that's done:

* with gentle, continuous explanations and reassurances (so that he doesn't "feel like [you're] forcing THAT on him")
* with close observation of his body signals and gradually, gently teaching/helping your ds reconnect/relearn his body signals so that he can understand the pee/poop process and get it into the toilet instead of the diaper (just like you provide labelling and language for emotions to help your babies avoid frustration & deal with feelings & communicate - this is just what toileting in a GD way can look like)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
After about half an hour, I finally tell DS that he doesn't have to have a new diaper, but he has pooped and I can't just leave him in his poop so we'll have to take that diaper off...

Good for you!!! You wouldn't leave poop on your toddler's hands because he didn't want to wash them, so why would you leave it anywhere else on his body either??







Very respectfully, I strongly disagree with a pp's idea of "only changing diapers a certain number of times each day" -- this only teaches our kids that sitting in their own waste for an extended period of time is OK, and they become even further detached from their body signals than they ALREADY are after having learned to go in the diaper for the last 2+ yrs (since we are not in a society w/ an ECing majority).

Plus, I would NEVER personally want to sit in my own pee/poop "until the timer dings" - even if I thought I wanted that, I would hope someone would NOT allow it!!! So Kristi, I agree with you 100% when you say "So, I'd much rather clean up poop and pee from the floor than do that to him!" Same here. Plus, your ds IS able to go through gentle potty learning - don't be put off by the "he's not ready yet" thing that has been perpetuated by ill-informed pediatricians and very wealthy diaper manufacturers. Gentle Discipline means "to teach gently" -- doing this w/ potty learning is helping your son learn about his body gradually so that he can take over more control of it/his functions as he is ready.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I mainly want GD advice, not potty learning advice.

Like any GD situation, talk about what's happening (simple, running commentary w/ ds) and so both you & ds know what to expect. Talk about how you don't want to fight about diapers anymore. Put yourself in the mindset that this is a gradual learning process and look at it as something more like learning to walk or eat solids - and help him as you would in those endeavors, providing him opportunities to be independent and understanding that there will be accidents along the way. Make it very "no big deal" and "everyday" like eating. Talk to him about how his pee/poop come out, what "having to go" might feel like (tingling, pressure in his bottom). Help him learn to recognize his own body signals (for example, does he generally hide in a corner while pooping? label this for him the next time it happens! does he dance around when he's got to pee? same deal).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
And, if we aren't using diapers, I have NO IDEA what to do with him when we leave the house. And since we co-sleep... well, he usually doesn't go at night, but god help me if he does!!

For me, the anticipation of leaving the house without diapers was much worse than ACTUALLY taking the plunge! It's as basic as throw ing in 2 extra pairs of pants, socks, and undies, and a plastic bag (for any wets) when you go out. Consider putting a little potty in your car if you want to be able to respond ASAP to any desire of his to try the potty. As for nighttimes, a good couple of mattress pads have saved us many a time, plus, that first nightwaking (if you have one) that's like 4-5 hrs after they go to sleep? It's usually because they have to pee, so you can even offer the potty at night. I used to nurse through it because I had no idea, but DH had the bright idea of offering the potty, and whoa - he was right on!

A pp said she didn't think it was right to let your kids pee/poop anywhere - well of course not!!! But that's different than removing diapers to eliminate a power struggle over something as ridiculous as a diaper WHILE using a gradual, GD approach to helping your child reconnect with their own body signals/learn how to anticipate when they go so that they can gain control over it.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of babies on this earth go through gradual, gentle, non-coercive potty learning starting from birth or early on in the first year (pp rumi mentioned EC), and this approach is not damaging. So, as long as you are gentle and focus on the gentle "to teach" part of helping your ds re-learn his pee/poop body signals (don't focus on the "trained" part - focus on the skills that will allow him to understand his body), I'd say that your time is being FAR better spent than figuring out a way to keep your DS in diapers longer!

Best of luck - let us know how it goes if you get a chance...


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *miziki*
Very respectfully, I strongly disagree with a pp's idea of "only changing diapers a certain number of times each day" -- this only teaches our kids that sitting in their own waste for an extended period of time is OK

Well, I certainly wasn't advocating letting him sit in poop. I figured that if the OP could negotiate four or five diaper changes a day, she could reserve the majority of these for poopy diapers and, especially if he's in disposables, sitting in a wet diaper for four hours or so wouldn't be a major catastrophe.

For what it's worth, in this situation I would just tell my kids, "Wet and poopy diapers have to be changed, even if you don't want to," and go ahead and change it. I certainly don't think kids should be left to sit in yucky diapers.

But the OP indicated that she wasn't comfortable forcefully changing her kid's diaper, so I was throwing out some suggestions. Apparently I suck at this GD thing, because my suggestions are usually criticised as too controlling, yet when I try to come up with creative alternatives, those are crummy too!









Namaste!


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

have you considered cjanging him on the floor where he's at instead of the changing table??? maybe the changing table is the majority of the problem...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I don't mean to be Debbie Downer, but my 24 mo toddler has been protesting diaper changes since about 14 months and has not yet shown signs that she is ready to potty-learn. (She has a potty, we talk about it, she sits on it sometimes, she has books about it, we've explained it--she just isn't ready.) When she started being very anti-change, people here also told she must be ready to potty-learn. Well....I wish it was so, but it isn't. She's just very opinionated about her personal space. (She also hates nail trimming, face washing, hair combing...we do our best on all of these, but it's been hard.)

I don't think I can advise on the original question, because we have chosen to keep her in dipes even though she protests changes.


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

My ds went through a stage like that where he did NOT want his diaper changed. For him I figured out that it was laying on his back that he didn't like. I started changing him standing up (dificult but doable) we would often stand in front of a mirror leaning against the wall where I could make faces at him as I changed him or in front of a toy he could reach easily while standing. It was harder to clean a poop so if he was realy messy I would put him in the tub to clean off.

I don't know if you've tryed standing diaper changes but it made a big diferance for us.


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

Potty learning is a long process. My daughter started using the potty at 18 months, night trained, too. She is 2.5 now, and had a relapse at Christmas, with all the busy busy busy. I will tell you our story. Cloth diapers for wetness awareness early on. Whole grains to promote regularity in bowel movements early on. Lots of naked time for body awareness (easier with regular bowels, ha). Baby pee is not dirty to a healthy adult caregiver- unless the child attends a large or unsanitary daycare. Your own urine is sterile to you, and if you are in constant contact with your child, his/her microbes have no threat to you. She went to the bathroom with me damn near every single time I went, from birth, with me talking about everything from the start. A potty out as soon as she could crawl. Always wash hands and sing ABC's, which is the appropriate amount of friction time for an adult to remove germs, and so a good teaching tool about how long to wash. As she showed an interest, introduced training pants, with plastic pants for outings. Kids know the difference early between diapers and trainers that to them seem like mama's and papa's underwear, they are more likely to soil diapers. Some don't like trainers, and need to go to 'real underwear' right away. It seems too fast, but the trainers don't absorb all the pee anyway. Pay attention to their signals at home to use the potty. Put them on the potty every time you go, ask them to check for secret pee pee. This conditioning is a useful tool later in the process for before outings an bed. Put a potty in your car. Start going on outings where it doesn't matter too much if there's an accident. Encourage the child to use the bathroom out in public- especially at places you know to be clean like the health food store. Eat healthy! The kid will touch the toilet! We are still in this phase, the Christmas diaper regression was short lived. I will soon be famous for singing the ABCs in bathrooms all over my town.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Emma strongly resisted diaper changes at 21 months, we thought she was ready to be potty trained, and so did she, she was flawess for 2 months, days nd nights! Then she started to regress at night, then more and more in the days, until recenty it was so bad that she just peed anywhere and everywhere but the potty, even hiding in corners. So at 28 months, we put her in pull ups as of yesterday, and we are ALL relieved, we're hoping by just backing right off she'll decide for herself when she is ready. So, not trying to give potty training advice just sharing that stopping the diapers outright worked for us for awhile, but not permanently. In retrospect, I wish we would've let her go back into her diapers months ago, instead of thinking the regression was a short lived phase that we should wait out. I think talking to him and asking him on a daily basis whether he'd like to wear a diaper or underwear or nothing might be good, and be clear that if he opts for a diaper or underwear that changing is part of that decision.


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## CalBearMama (Sep 23, 2005)

My DS is only 15 months, but the diaper struggle began early for us. Pretty much as soon as he could crawl, he would not tolerate lying down for a diaper change - he would twist, turn, roll, and scream, not because he cared one way or the other about the diaper issue, but because he just wanted to keep moving. So there might very well be a personal space/autonomy issue going on that has little or nothing to do with diapers per se, but diapers have now become such an issue for you that you both are having trouble separating the two.

Previous posters have already suggested standing diaper changes and/or changes that do not require your child to stop what he is doing. In addition to starting EC with DS when he was about 11 months, that has been our basic strategy for wet diapers (not poopy ones, though - too hard to get him clean standing up and too much risk of getting poop on the carpet). Sometimes I feel ridiculous following him around the living room on my knees trying to get something on him (we use cloth diapers and training pants as EC back-up at home), but it feels so much better than trying to pin down a screaming baby on the one designated "changing table." Training pants have been much easier to put on him than diapers, so we do that a lot, even though they are not as absorbent and we sometimes get a little puddle on the floor if I don't notice that he has to pee and get him to the potty in time.

As for poopy pants, does your son like baths or showers? When DS poops in his diaper or training pants, we tell him it's time to go get cleaned up because he has poop in his pants, and we ask him what bath toy he would like to take with him. He's still too young to really respond, so we grab a toy for him and head to the bathroom - he usually follows, but if not, we hand him the toy and then pick him up and carry him to the bathroom. We are basically trying to create a positive routine around dealing with poop in the pants - it means it's time for a little bath/shower. We put him in the tub standing up, remove all of his clothes and the diaper, and clean him with toilet paper or wipes as well as we can. If we're in a hurry or he doesn't need a full bath, we just use the shower head and a sudsy washcloth to get his diaper area clean. If he could use a bath anyway, we spray the poop off with the shower head and then run a bath for him so he can sit and soak and play for a while. Because he likes baths and showers, he seems not to view this routine as a total disruption of his play, but instead more like a change from one fun activity to another (mostly) fun activity. And if you're currently spending 30 minutes or more per diaper change, this routine would probably actually save you a lot of time.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

we used a puppet to change my son's diaper.

for some unknown reason, my son would do with that damn puppet said, but not mommy or daddy.

we got a few puppets from the bookstore (i am a sucker for those folkmanis puppets) and when it was time to change my son the puppet would ask him and then the puppet would "change" him.

he was fine with this, anything else made him insane and he would scream and fight like he was being killed. one reason we are gonna try EC this time around.

HTH!


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Dd went through something similar just before she started to use the potty consistently. My uneducated guess is that she was upset about getting her diaper dirty because she wanted to go in to the potty, she was just still unsure about it. We had the same denials "I'm not poopy" = she would even blame the dog!









We talked about diaper rash, although it has been quite a while since she has had any sort of rash, she remembered it. We would say "if you sit in pee pee and pooh pooh you will get a rash" in the same mattter of fact way that we say "if you dont wear your coat you will get cold outside" - just a very fact of the matter sort of statement. This lessened the fight to change. Also, we did the standing diaper changes and even plopped dd in the shower to wash off (toddler poop is m-e-s-s-y!)

Plus, we had to stop using her "baby diapers" - I think I loved them more than she did







(beautiful daisy doodles). Dd goes to daycare and she saw that the other preschoolers were wearing pull ups. I tried to get her to wear cloth ones with no luck. Shes quick









We still let dd choose what she will wear. Sometimes its underwear, sometimes a diaper. She even wore underwear to school twice last week and stayed dry, then this week she decided she wanted diapers again. The important thing to me is that she decides what she is ready for.

It will end







but I know in the meantime you feel


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

We do standing diaper changes here pretty much exclusively. For poops, we do a quick 30 second in-and-out deal in the shower (he loves the shower - it's a great incentive for getting his diaper changed). He gets clean and is happy, but our floors stay clean.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I just wanted to thank everyone for the ton of wonderful suggestions, advice and guidance I got from this thread!

I read a lot of this yesterday and didn't have time to reply (I do a lot of nak'ing).

He showed interest in potty learning several months ago, but then suddenly started adamantly refusing to use the potty at all... right around his whole contrarian phase started (please let that phase end). I guess this is just all about him wanting to have control over his life and asserting his will.

We were pretty much diaper free yesterday and today... after several peeing incidents yesterday (including the clean dishes in the dishwasher getting peed on) I explained to him this morning that if we were going to not use diapers, I really needed him to help me out and at least try to use his potty (gave him several options... peeing int he tub, peeing in the potty, peeing in a bowl standing up, in the regular toilet standing up, etc. because he doesn't seem to like his potty).

Anyway... so he adamantly refused. I guess this is where my weakness as a parent comes in.







We had new carpet laid a few weeks ago and it really frustrates me to have someone peeing on it (not to mention the darn dog has been yakking on it).

So, I told him I needed him to wear diapers again for now.









I am really feeling my limitations as a parent right now. Between the two long years of constant nightwakings and nightnursings, us just getting over a phase like this with the shower/bath (thank goodness he will take showers and baths again!), power struggles over having to get dressed before leaving the house, and now the whole diaper thing, I have been getting way more frustrated about things...

I am not sure I did the right thing. But instead of sending all of these mixed messages (it's ok to not wear a diaper... but don't pee on the floor, dammit) I felt like DS really needed me to send a clear message and tell him what exactly the boundaries were. I don't feel like I set the boundaries I should have... but I didn't want to end up in a situation where I got frustrated and was always yelling at him for peeing all over the place... that can't be good.








So I guess that's where I'm at... I'm hoping in a week or two, maybe I will be feeling a little less stressed and we can try taking off the diapers again... I really feel that is the best way for him to be more aware of and responsible for his body... but I don't want it to be a power struggle.

dharmamama, thanks so much for your suggestions... in order to get him dressed yesterday (we went to the zoo) and to get changed a couple of times today, I laid him on our bed instead of the changing table, and turned his video on and gave him the remote... he seemed perfectly happy to get changed/dressed! I don't know how long THAT will last, but it was a great suggestion... and maybe not using the changing table will help since it maybe has some bad vibes due to our recent struggles.

So there you have it... I am too wishy washy to set rules, and too tense to function without them. I am feeling kind of down about myself today...


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Remember the most important thing is to remember where *your* limits are. No one does everything "right". Its no use to your son if you are doing what you are "supposed" to be doing and stressed out and tense all the time.

Take care of yourself mama!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

ITA with sweetest.

Quote:

I am not sure I did the right thing. But instead of sending all of these mixed messages (it's ok to not wear a diaper... but don't pee on the floor, dammit) I felt like DS really needed me to send a clear message and tell him what exactly the boundaries were. I don't feel like I set the boundaries I should have... but I didn't want to end up in a situation where I got frustrated and was always yelling at him for peeing all over the place... that can't be good.
I totally hear this, and it is why we have kept DD in diapers even though she hates changes too. I know that the alternatives (diaper-free or trying to PT) would stress one of us even more.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm tiptoeing in to gently point something out. Please understand that this is totally meant in the kindest, most gentle way and in the spirit of making eventual potty learning a little more bearable. I truly believe (and not everyone agrees) after having three children go through potty learning that accidents (peeing on the floor and in the pants and even pooping in the pants or on the floor) are all part of learning to void in the potty, especially after a child has learned to void in the diapers which are for all intents and purposes pants. There's a learning curve, a period of "getting the hang of it," during which there will be accidents. Sure, I don't like cleaning up pee or poop from underwear and pants or the floor or a chair or from the floor. But I would be so much more frustrated, and so would my kids, if I expected them to get the hang of it right away and not have accidents. Potty learning takes time, it takes having accidents, it takes noticing the bodily sensations of peeing and/or pooping in your pants or while naked, it takes going over to the potty during or after accidents and someone verbally noticing "oh, you're peeing/pooping." It's not that they're deciding not to get on the potty when they feel it coming (well, at least not in my own very limited experience), it's that they need practice in both feeling it coming and stopping whatever interesting activity they're engaged in to get to the potty (tough for a toddler), and stopping that activity in time to avoid an accident. And in my experience applying any pressure beyond a casual "do you need to go pee?" reminder results in refusal and disinterest in the potty. And this is after our traditional 2-3 weeks of letting a very interested and clearly physically capable child run naked to get the hang of using the potty. I just feel badly for families who are so frustrated over accidents when in my experience (which is limited to my own 3 kids) accidents are a natural and unavoidable part of the process.

And if accidents are too stressful and you decide to keep your child in diapers, I think it's great that you know your own limits and it's a perfectly fine choice.







I just think that eventually when you do decide to help your son give potty learning a try, it might be helpful to remember that no matter when you give it a try accidents are going to happen. Rubber pants over underwear are great when you go out-keeps the pants and the car dry.

That, of course, does not in any way address the issue of getting poopy diapers or underwear of a child who does not wish to be changed. But it sounds like you've found a way to get through it for now.


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## peypeymama (Jul 31, 2005)

My DD is the same age as your DS. Right now she is going through a MAJOR "no no" phase. Everything, is "no no". We just drove up to our house and I hear, "no no home!" She doesn't want a nap, milk, clothes, her hair brushed, her shoes, dinner, lunch, bed-time, diaper changes. Everything and anything, even stuff she normally loves is now "no no".

Maybe, your ds is just having a case of the "no no's"?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Sledg, I think you bring up and interesting point, and I agree with you partially. Both of my kids potty trained with several weeks of running around what we call here "naked butt" and having between 10 and 20 whizzing and pooping accidents.

BUT! This was after the kids had already shown interest in the potty and had gone through a period of indicating to me (while still wearing diapers) that they wanted to go and sit on the potty.

I think that makes a difference for a lot of kids. I'm not sure that just taking diapers off a kid who has not really shown any interest in going to the potty and just expecting them to learn, after however many accidents, to go in the potty, is the right way to go.

Namaste!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Some people learn how to change diapers while their toddler is standing up. If he doesn't have to stop what he's doing to get his diaper changed, that might help matters.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

i think expressing frustration with / dislike towards diapers deserves a response in which we offer an alternative, or at least a chance to go without and try out the available options.

a child may or may not exactly know beforehand that the next step is using a potty / seat insert / pull ups, whatever. so there will be a transition period where a child is using neither diapers nor a potty, and it will take some time to become consistent. if you can live with that, it can pose a mutually agreeable solution ,and afaik is part of the standard potty learning process and not only for EC'ers - though these arent watertight distinctions and I hope everyone is communicating and listening whether using diapers or not.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:

Well, I certainly wasn't advocating letting him sit in poop... especially if he's in disposables, sitting in a wet diaper for four hours or so wouldn't be a major catastrophe... For what it's worth, in this situation I would just tell my kids, "Wet and poopy diapers have to be changed, even if you don't want to," and go ahead and change it. I certainly don't think kids should be left to sit in yucky diapers... Apparently I suck at this GD thing, because my suggestions are usually criticised as too controlling, yet when I try to come up with creative alternatives, those are crummy too!

dharmamama, I totally understand that you were NOT advocating letting him sit in poop! And I definitely believe that your suggestion came from a very kind, loving, good place. Plus, your suggestion IS creative and clever from the angle that it provides the toddler with a clear, predictable routine/plan to avoid conflict - which, IMO, is very GD!

Please accept my apology - I did not intend to criticise you (or anyone else), and my apologies if it came across that way. It was not my intention!

My only concern about your suggestion was that an UNINTENDED/accidental result of having "only a certain number of scheduled changes a day" could result in poopy diapers not getting changed immediately... getting pushed off until later... and later. Same with pee. And while that's not the end of the world for that to happen on RARE occasions, this type of thing happening even once daily builds up over time, and our kids AS WELL AS us, the parents, become desensitised to the feeling of dirty diapers and out of touch with the process/frequency/signals of elimination. All of that adds up to making potty training even harder in the long run, whenever, as a family, we decide to commit to the potty learning process.

This is why diapers are such a double-edged sword: super convenient, but potentially sooo convenient & habit-forming for both parent and child that it's actually really mentally difficult for parents and quite physically difficult for kids to break out of the cycle of using them. P.S. - I *know* the convenience of diapers - we used them, too! So this is NOT an accusation or criticism of parents who diaper - just problems that I see with diapering in general, as we do it in our culture currently. Does that make sense?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Sledg, I think you bring up and interesting point, and I agree with you partially. Both of my kids potty trained with several weeks of running around what we call here "naked butt" and having between 10 and 20 whizzing and pooping accidents.
*
BUT! This was after the kids had already shown interest in the potty and had gone through a period of indicating to me (while still wearing diapers) that they wanted to go and sit on the potty.*

I think that makes a difference for a lot of kids. I'm not sure that just taking diapers off a kid who has not really shown any interest in going to the potty and just expecting them to learn, after however many accidents, to go in the potty, is the right way to go.

ITA!!!
I wasn't clear. I apologize. Certainly the most important part is that a child shows interest. I waited for all of my kids to show definite interest in the potty before even thinking about helping them learn to use it. I guess I take that so for granted that I didn't even think to say it.







I also didn't make clear that I understood the op's child is not currently interested, and was more thinking of his initial interest and his future interest. I think I did say I was mentioning it to keep in mind for when he's ready and she's ready to try again.

The other piece is, though, that a child can lose interest if they feel pressured to use the potty. I know when I have gotten frustrated about accidents for whatever reason and have started pressuring them to go on the potty or showing irritation at the accident, they resist. That's my cue to back off a bit and get back to gentle encouragement, and when faced with accidents just say "oh, you peed. That happens. Next time you'll make it to the potty. Let's clean up." YK?


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## JenniferC (Dec 5, 2002)

I can share our experiences. DD is potty trained now, but around 18 months I noticed she would wet herself when I was going to the bathroom (we have an open door policy), so I started setting her on a little potty when I was going, and she often would. She still wore diapers for quite a while (she'd been mostly dry at night for quite some time and I pottied her in the morning too and last thing at night), but just eventually transitioned out of them. She does have misses when she's sick, and has had a couple of relapses but is doing well.

As far as if you want to keep your DS in diapers, does he have a favourite doll or stuffed animal? Whenever DD is resistant to going in her carseat we buckle her special 'car seat' puppy in with her, that's his only job really, he lives in the car. At times when she would resist the potty we'd say one of her dollies had to go, and she'd take the dolly and set her between her legs (we did this a few times when we were learning the potty, with both of us on at once), wipe the dolly off etc. Maybe this would work with diaper changes? "Bear needs a diaper change, let's go!"


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Lots of good points here.

On a side note, I wonder about the concern over yielding to your toddler when faced with tantruming.

With our kiddo, I learned early on that if I was laying down the law about something, it was imperative for me to follow through on it. Consequently, she virtually never bothers trying to tantrum with me. She recognizes that some rules are just inflexible - car seats, holding hands at street crossings, so forth. Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of 'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'.

Most kids come to hate diaper changes. It interrupts their play, it's tedious, they feel cold and exposed. But Baby learned early on that when mom decides it's the right time, then nothing she can do is going to change that. I do play and comfort her, making it as quick and pleasant as possible. And I'm understanding and realistic about her ability to be completely cooperative at her age. If she squirms and fusses, well, she's doing the best she can. Modifications like doing the change in a standing position are a nice compromise if that seems to help.

But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.









Thoughts?


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Thoughts?
OK but only because you asked







. This seems OT to me.

Quote:

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.
oppsition-The action of opposing something that you disapprove or disagree with

My thoughts and opinions- To oppose something is normal and HEALTHY, much more so than always doing as you are told. All people are different, people learn different, have different personalities, temperaments, etc. Some people learn by watching, some listening, some doing. Some people are introverts, some extroverts, etc. etc. etc. SOME people like to LABEL people who are different than the majority. Just because a child does not fit into the neat little box of a standardized learning environment does not mean they need MEDICATED.

AND the behavior I see in a two year old has little to do with what I can expect from a six or seventeen year old. Tantrums are a behavior the average toddler displays. I find it hard to believe how the parent reacts to this one specific behavior would cause a child to have ADHD, which it sounds like you are implying. AND the OP was not talking about her dc tantruming over a chocolate bar or something anyhow, she was saying her dc doesn't like diaper changes and teeth brushing. MUCH DIFFERENT.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Thoughts?
I think you will spice the place up.







There are many of us who disagree with your authoritarian view of controlling children. Welcome to MDC.

Pat


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I think you will spice the place up.







There are many of us who disagree with your authoritarian view of controlling children. Welcome to MDC.

Pat

Thank you. It looks as though your prediction will hold true







.

It's funny. I never, ever thought my parenting would classify as 'authoritarian'. We don't spank (of course), don't yell, don't 'time out'.

What seems to work great with my girl is to explain why I'm asking for something to be a certain way. Even when she was certainly too young to understand my words, she still seemed to understand the reassuring nature of my communication. When she got hold of something sharp and tried to put in in her mouth, I could say 'oh no! That's not for babies. That will cut you if you eat it!' She would just agreeably hand over the object.

Dad was slower to figure that out, and would at first approach it more from the 'cuz I say so' stance. He'd try to pry it out of her hands, saying 'give it here!' She'd wail and resist. Then I'd say, 'oh honey, dad doesn't want you to cut yourself. That's why he's taking it away'. She'd instantly calm down and hand the item over. Once dad saw how effective that was he incorporated that approach, with equal success.

I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child **** and **** on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.

And I do absolutely believe in a relationship with later behaviors. If little johnnie feels disgruntled and unhappy about other situations: sitting in his desk, waiting his turn, or giving another child his toy back - well, he knows the way out of that situation. Just tantrum until you get your way. Now everybody's miserable, including little johnnie. Now teacher is asking for little johnnie to be worked up for ADHD.

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.
Well I agree with this







. I show patience for my children and am willing to compromise with them







, they learn what they see and are shown. I am at a loss what this has to do with a toddler tantruming though? Is doing something to a child they have expressed they don't want done compromise?

Quote:

I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child piss and shit on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.
There is quite a bit of room for alternatives between 'letting' a toddler use the floor and forcing a diaper on them, don't you agree? Children do sometimes go on the floor while they are learning and even after. Would you propose not helping them learn because the may go on the floor? Just curious.

Also curious-what exactly is your definition of a 'tantrum' anyway?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Blessed, welcome to MDC.

I think I come at parenting much the way you do. I think that parents can be "in charge" of their children and still be disciplining gently.

I would like to add that, in the past, we have had guidance from the mods on using swear words in our posts. I'm not sure whether there is a sticky on it, but the general idea was that not everyone is comfortable with them, so they are best left out.

Namaste!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.
Perhaps, modelling patience and compromise is more effective than forcing one's will to 'teach patience and compromise'.







I guess you might be surprised that others consider a "tantrum" a valid expression of valid emotions which are just as important as our own adult emotions and expressions of needs.







And many here offer alternative methods of expressing the needs at the same time as meeting the underlying need, rather than disregarding the 'tantrum' while meeting our own need.

I am sure we will all learn a lot together.









Pat


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:

I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child **** and **** on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.
Wow... could you be any more offensive? Or more open in your contempt for me, the original poster?

Rather than being open for thoughts, your first post now sounds like a condescending "Oh, this stupid parent... she's coddling her child and doesn't know any better".

For your future info, "letting" children **** and **** on the floor (as you so eloquently put it) is the potty training method the rest of the world uses, rather than diapers. And, it is well known to be the best method of acquainting a diapered child with their body functions.

As for your contempt which was obviously directed at me... tantrums are a healthy way (and frequently the ONLY way) for a toddler to express their frustrations with the limitations being imposed on them. It is not simply a behavior to reinforce or not reinforce. Children aren't dogs. Dogs aren't dogs either.

You have been fed a bunch of behaviorist claptrap by our culture. Taking into account a child's desires and needs doesn't make me a pushover parent who will have a child with ADHD, as your first post strongly implies.

I'm curious... if your child developed an aversion to taking baths and had a fear of the drain, would you force them to take a bath? If you didn't, you'd just be a big pushover giving in to childish whims, and encouraging tantrums and ADHD and any number of other behavioral problems, according to your definition.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Wow... could you be any more offensive? Or more open in your contempt for me, the original poster?

I'm sorry, Kristi. I will apologize for that. I was trying to word it in such a way as to capture how shocking that idea was to me. But I'm sorry that it came out sounding too critical, and I think that it really did







.

Sure, kids accidentally go on the floor while in the midst of potty training. My daughter went on herself this morning. I had the impression that this was more a case of just giving in to your kiddo and letting him run around diaperless simply because he objected to diapers. All the while knowing that he would soil himself and the house because he really wasn't ready.









I think babies and toddlers have a pretty tough time dealing with their own negative emotions, and they really look to us to help them define what it is that they're feeling and how to deal with it. I think when kids have a knee jerk negative response to a situation, it really does them a disservice when our unwillingness to intervene serves to essentially affirm their dysfunctional reaction.

Life deals us all sorts of unpleasant situations. Our kids need the tools to govern their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can cope with them effectively.

I can't really relate to your example about my kid being afraid of the bathtub drain, to be honest. But she does hate to have her hair washed. Rinsed, to be exact. But the first couple of times that she pitched a fit about having her hair rinsed, I didn't just stop washing her hair and let her go dirty. I talked to her and coaxed her and offered different approaches to see if one felt better than the other.

But at the end of the day, she learned that screaming and fighting with me simply doesn't grant her immunity from carrying through with unpleasant tasks. Rather, what she learned was how to manage her feelings of frustration and anger when life hands you a situation that isn't exactly to her liking.

Her angst most assuredly gets my attention and my sympathy. She knows absolutely that her distress is my distress, and that I'm doing everything I can to help ameliorate the situation for her. But she TRUSTS me to guide her through which situations are safe, which are negotiable, and which simply must be dealt with head on. When it's one of the latter, she looks to me to help her learn how to cope.

Your son needs you to help him figure out how to deal with unpleasant situations - like an unwanted diaper change.

Anyway, that's pretty much how I view it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
... tantrums are a healthy way (and frequently the ONLY way) for a toddler to express their frustrations with the limitations being imposed on them. It is not simply a behavior to reinforce or not reinforce. Children aren't dogs. Dogs aren't dogs either.

You have been fed a bunch of behaviorist claptrap by our culture. Taking into account a child's desires and needs doesn't make me a pushover parent who will have a child with ADHD, as your first post strongly implies.


















Anyways, I've found that if I offer ds a book to "read" for diaper changes, it almost always makes it better. And he has a tigger stuffed animal that "bounces on him" and talks to him before diaper changes.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Yes, please refrain from using "swear" words when posting. We understand that occasionally, these words come up....but, in this instance, in this forum, I ask that anyone who has used (or quoted







) the offending words, please use the edit feature at the bottom right hand corner. If you're not able to in a timely manner, I will do so.

Thanks for understanding!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Lots of good points here.

On a side note, I wonder about the concern over yielding to your toddler when faced with tantruming.

With our kiddo, I learned early on that if I was laying down the law about something, it was imperative for me to follow through on it. Consequently, she virtually never bothers trying to tantrum with me. She recognizes that some rules are just inflexible - car seats, holding hands at street crossings, so forth. Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of 'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'.

Most kids come to hate diaper changes. It interrupts their play, it's tedious, they feel cold and exposed. But Baby learned early on that when mom decides it's the right time, then nothing she can do is going to change that. I do play and comfort her, making it as quick and pleasant as possible. And I'm understanding and realistic about her ability to be completely cooperative at her age. If she squirms and fusses, well, she's doing the best she can. Modifications like doing the change in a standing position are a nice compromise if that seems to help.

But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.









Thoughts?


Thank you. I am with you on this one. I do not think it is going to ruin a child for life to be told "no" on certain things. I think you can be firm and yet still kind and gentle with your children.

Honestly, I do not even understand why this is such a huge discussion, although I will say it is interesting (as are most discussions here) and informative. Unless your child is ready for potty training, then you have no other alternative to diapers, unless you do not mind poop and pee all over your house. I think I can safely say most of us would probably draw the line at that.

To the OP. It sounds like you have a handle on this thing and I just say to do what you think is best. My middle son has Autism and was not potty trained until right after he turned 5. Of course that is normal with Autism, but I was relieved when he decided to finally do it. And no, I never punished, yelled or said anything rude to him about it. I do not believe in punishing and belittling a child for potty training accidents.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I edited the posts that contained offensive words. Ordinarily, I wouldn't edit anyone else's posts, but in this instance, in an effort to keep the posts on the boards, rather than removing them entirely, I edited. Again, please refrain from using vulgarities, even if it is to make a point or in quoting. Let's remember some of us have older children reading over our shoulders









Please PM me if you have any further questions. Thanks!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

(all bolding mine)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Our kids need the tools to *govern* their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can *cope* with them *effectively*.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Her angst most assuredly gets my attention and my sympathy. She knows absolutely that her distress is my distress, and that *I'm doing everything I can to help ameliorate the situation for her*. But she TRUSTS me to guide her through which situations are safe, which are negotiable, and which simply must be dealt with head on. When it's one of the latter, *she looks to me to help her learn how to cope*.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of *'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'*.


Uhhh, what?









Let's just say, I'm glad you're not the one "teaching" my little one anything. Wow!

__________________________________________________ _________

Kay, has anything happened since the OP? Any changes (pun intended







) or progress?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Let's just say, I'm glad you're not the one "teaching" my little one anything. Wow!

I think that parents can teach kids that some things in life are non-negotiable and model for kids how to accept and deal with the situation and their feelings about it.

I subscribe to the "tough cookie, kid, it has to be done" school of thought for some things in life, but that doesn't mean that I don't work to help my kids to understand their feelings and help them deal with those feelings. I think it's important for parents to teach kids that 1) they won't always get their way 2) sometimes you just have to suck it up 3) you can manage feelings without a great big noisy fuss.

That doesn't mean I am cold and unfeeling towards my kids and their feelings. It just means that I don't think that contorting myself into strange shapes and tolerating emotional outbursts is always the best way to go. Sometimes I am extremely flexible. But other times, I am not. And I expect that my kids learn to express their feelings in ways that don't involve tantrums.

Namaste!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I'm glad you're not "teaching" my DC either.

That stuff I quoted was truely dizzying.

And if I weren't so busy contorting myself around DS, then just how would I get any exercize?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, I'm glad you're not "teaching" my DC either.

Well, honestly, I am glad you're not teaching my dc. But where does that conversation get us? You can disagree with people without being rude to them personally.

Namaste!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

oh, to the op- I realized that when I go to change ds, I ask him to help lift his bottom up and he thinks that's fun. I say "bottom's up" (because that's funny to me lol) and he goes on with raising his butt up, then down (I say bottom's down). He does it over and over, and I just fasten the diaper any ways I can. lol
That and giving him a book to look at. And waiting until he's at a stopping point in whatever activity is important to him at the moment.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

OK. I just don't find it so terrible that you wouldn't want me teaching your kids, so I'm at a disadvantage in avoiding that "rudeness".

I just don't find it rude when directed at me...

I think my point in post #47 was valid, and doesn't deserve to be sidetracked.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I think my point in post #47 was valid, and doesn't deserve to be sidetracked.

I think your point would have been much better made had you actually made a point and not just tried to jab the poster. You might as well have added "neener neener neener plbbbbbbbbt!" to your post.

Namaste!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I subscribe to the "tough cookie, kid, it has to be done" school of thought for some things in life, but that doesn't mean that I don't work to help my kids to understand their feelings and help them deal with those feelings. I think it's important for parents to teach kids that 1) they won't always get their way 2) sometimes you just have to suck it up 3) you can manage feelings without a great big noisy fuss.

That doesn't mean I am cold and unfeeling towards my kids and their feelings. It just means that I don't think that contorting myself into strange shapes and tolerating emotional outbursts is always the best way to go. Sometimes I am extremely flexible. But other times, I am not. And I expect that my kids learn to express their feelings in ways that don't involve tantrums.

Namaste!

I thiknk I'm falling somewhere in the middle, here. I don't feel comfortable with the "tough cookies, kid" thing...however, having said that, I am not against coercing my child in some situations, or 'making' him do things sometimes....but, I do not ever try to control his expression of feelings, as I think it's healthy for him to get them out. I will empathize with him and say, "Boy, you're mad because X, I understand but we need to Y for Z reason." But I never tell him his outbursts are unacceptable...as he gets older, I will teach him more constructive ways to express his anger, but I never want him to stifle it.

To me, "tough cookies" means I don't care what he's feeling, and that is definitely not the case. I do care what he's feeling, I do validate his feelings, and even if he isn't getting his "way", I let him know I understand where he's coming from (but I don't get overly melodramatic about it). I think that, in combination with me just kind of getting things done without lots of drama and maintaining a calm, gentle demeanor, lets him know that he won't always 'get his way' without being quite so harsh as 'tough cookies', that it's OK for him to not like what's going on, but that it will still be getting done, and that he has the ability and resiliance to get over minor disappointments (though with toddler tantrums, they all seem like life-altering events, don't they?







).

I do have to respectfully say that this

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
"Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady"

makes me feel icky...it gives me a "don't be a bad girl", or "nice girls don't X" vibe, which I don't like....falls too far to authoritarian (vs. authoritative) for me.

Back OT, with DS, he's disliked getting his diaper changed laying down since he was about 12 months, maybe 14, so we've been changing pee diapers standing (with pull up sposies) since then. I do insist on changing poop diapers lying down, because we've had some incidents where poop ends up in bizarre places and we don't always see it right away - long story, won't get into it...







So anyway, he is free to stand and do whatever while I do the pees, but when he poops, that's a lay down for the wiping. The pants come off and then the new diaper goes on and redressed standing, but the actual cleaning of the dirty diaper happens lying down...but on the floor, I haven't used a changing table with him since he was about 12 months. AND, when he does protest, I sympathize with him, "I know, you hate laying down and having me clean up poops", tell him, "I'm almost done, then you can stand up", and then thank him when we're done. This doesn't mean that he always happily cooperates, but to me it's not really an option - poopy diapers get changed and cleaned ASAP. But, I don't feel like I'm giving the "tough noogies" vibe, because I'm certainly recognizing the fact he doesn't like it, and letting him know it will be over as quickly as possible.

OK, so once again, I rambled. How shocking.








Just my opinion, FWIW.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
but I never want him to stifle it.

I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!

True, true - that's what I meant when I mentioned teaching him appropriate ways to express his anger...I think we're actually relatively close on this one, really! Didn't mean my post as an attack. Sorry if it came out that way.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Ladies, ladies, ladies, claws in. I think the point was how contradicting the messages in the quotes were: I care what you think/feel and I am doing what I can to ameliorate it *but* I am going to do what I want regardless and I call that 'helping you to cope with your emotions'.

Seems dismissive of the child's emotions when they are protesting what is being done *to their body* against their will. How is continuing to act, not disregard? How is it "non-negotiable" when one person is choosing to *do it* to another.......oh!







, "it is for their own good". Right







That sounded sarcastic. Hmmm...... I guess the mixed message is basically lying to the child, imo. The actions are not consistent with the "reassurance". This seems like psychological manipulation of the verbal message to dissociate from the reality of one's actions.

Actions speak louder than words. Is the child learning to disregard another's emotions to get their way? We really choose to keep looking for the common preference because then we are looking for a solution which works for both parties, because these are the skills they need in the world and in other relationships. And I don't think that precludes changing the diaper. Warm wipes, softer wipes, standing up, toys to engage, tv show, a snack, etc. Bullying ahead isn't necessary.

Pat


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Per the User Agreement:

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
Let's get back to the diapering/discipline discussion at hand, please. Personal comments about who's not teaching whom can be taken to PM









Thanks!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!

I agree with helping our son to find alternative means of expressing himself in a manner in which I wish to be addressed. However, if I am disregarding his body space integrity against his will, I don't quite expect a young child to say 'excuse me please, but I asked you to stop doing that (taking off my clothes for example) and you keep forcing me to do it anyway.' I would expect if a child had expressed dissent about me doing something to his body, and I kept doing it without listening and honoring his expression of protest, that he, like most of us would not be so "constructive" in his 'expression of anger'. I'd completely expect that if someone were physcially doing something to my body (taking off my clothes for example) and I was telling them to stop, I might want to scream at them in a rage, if they KEPT doing it! Wouldn't you?

Pat


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Kay, has anything happened since the OP? Any changes (pun intended







) or progress?

Thanks for asking.







Things have actually gotten a bit better. I lay him down on my bed to change him so he can watch the one video he likes to watch while he gets changed.

I don't really like changing him on my bed... even though there's a changing pad there, it seems kind of yucky to me. But, I will happily do it if it makes everyone happy.

I am not sure how healthy it is to *distract* him as a means of making him give in and let me do something which he really seems to protest against. It is one thing to do this with a 1 year old who is just irritated at being interrupted... it is another to do this to someone who is over 2 (he's almost 26 months) and is very aware of what he does and does not want being done to his body.

I can't escape the feeling that if I had been just a little more patient, and not such a grumpy old hag, and kept him out of diapers for a few days, maybe he would have just decided to use the potty. I will have to think on this some more. I felt really bad at hollering at him for peeing on the floor (and it was the KITCHEN floor, for crying out loud) and I definitely didn't want that precedent to continue.

So, I guess to answer your question, diaper changes no longer involve lots of screaming and writhing and anger, but neither do I feel I chose the right solution.

Perhaps I need to meditate on this some more.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Wouldn't you?

Honestly, Pat, it would depend on whether I felt I had done a good job teaching my children that sometimes Momma makes decisions for the child's own good that the child may not like but is expected to go along with. That is the parenting model my husband and I have chosen to adopt. I believe that, as a mother, I have a right/responsibility to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necessary. Diaper changes are, to me, necessary (for a child who uses diapers and isn't able to potty train, and of course I would do what I could to make the diaper change pleasant and tolerable for the child, but in the end I will change the child's diaper). We can debate ad infinitum as to whether you agree with my model or whether I agree with yours, but the bottom line is that I expect my kids to aquiesce to my wishes in certain instances and I expect that they do so without throwing a great big noisy fuss.

I'm sure that many people will be completely appalled and horrified by my statement of "I believe that, as a mother, I have a right/responsibility to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necesary," but I am telling you now (politely







) to save your breath about your outrage because I am aware of it but it won't change my mind. My husband and I have examined many different models, philosophies, and strategies of parenting and are comfortable and confident with ours.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I am not sure how healthy it is to *distract* him as a means of making him give in and let me do something which he really seems to protest against. It is one thing to do this with a 1 year old who is just irritated at being interrupted... it is another to do this to someone who is over 2 (he's almost 26 months) and is very aware of what he does and does not want being done to his body.

I'm glad that things are better, and I say this in a supportive and not an "Oh you're so ridiculous" way, but I think you are overthinking this. If he's happy watching the video, then you have found a good solution to the problem. At two years old, he'd let you know if it was still a problem!

Namaste!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

That is the parenting model my husband and I have chosen to adopt. I believe that, as a mother, I have a right to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necessary.

Quote:

I expect my kids to aquiesce to my wishes in certain instances and I expect that they do so without throwing a great big noisy fuss.
Namaste?









Pat


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Namaste?









Yep. Namaste means "the light in me recognizes and prostrates before the light in you." I assume, however, that you know that and are just trying to be snide.

You don't have to like the way I parent. In fact, if you want to hate it, knock yourself out. But please don't resort to snideness. You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. If you didn't want my answer, you shouldn't have asked.

Namaste!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Yep. Namaste means "the light in me recognizes and prostrates before the light in you." I assume, however, that you know that and are just trying to be snide.

You don't have to like the way I parent. In fact, if you want to hate it, knock yourself out. But please don't resort to snideness. You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. If you didn't want my answer, you shouldn't have asked.

Namaste!

My question wasn't meant snidely. Sincerely, I don't understand the reconciliation with the spiritual intent of Namaste. I am Taoist-leaning. Buddhist-ish in my own spiritual beliefs. I don't understand the apparent contradiction. I apologize that you perceived it as snide.

Pat


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't see a contradiction in seeing the Buddha nature in other sentient beings and parenting them in the way I believe is best for their long-term physical existence (in this human incarnation) and their long-term spiritual learning over their countless rebirths in the cycle of Samsara.

If you want to get into how my Buddhist faith informs and influences my parenting, I would be happy to do that via PM.

I have discussed parenting with our spiritual teacher, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche, a high lama and yogi from Tibet, and I can assure you that he believes in a much harsher method of parenting than I do.

I apologize if I misunderstood your post and reacted strongly to it.

Namaste!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Seriously, y'all, if we're not talking about the OP diapering situation, please take it to PM or start a new thread. We need to do our best to stay on topic.

Thanks!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)




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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*

















:


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Kay-

I so understand where you are coming from. I belive that as a mother one of the most important lessons is to show that our bodies are ours and to protest at touch that we dont like. I want my daughter to say STOP IT when someone, anyone does something to her that she doesnt like and I want her to know that her protests are effective.

You are a patient and gentle mama, and this will pass. He will NOT be peeing on the floor when hes 16







Realize your limits, be creative. We have gone through a whole bottle of 7th Generation carpet cleaner in the last 2 months. Its because Dd insists on wearing her underwear - even though she is having a few accidents a day. I have considered just laying out old bath towels - easier to clean.

Know you are not the only one with a strong willed 2 year old


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Kay, I'm so glad it's going a little easier! In the past few days (as I wrote in my thread about this) Max has been loving to hear Harry Potter stories. So it has been easier to do changes as long as I tell him a story with lots of excitement and eye-contact. A couple of times he has even come over to me and lain down for the change!









I'm glad to hear the video is helping, at least for the moment!

About the floor... What would happen in you promised yourself a good floor cleaning after potty learning was a go? I have let go all my tension about peepee floors when I decided that I'm treating myself to a steaming after it's all done.

It's amazing how little I care now when he does go on the floor!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I want my daughter to say STOP IT when someone, anyone does something to her that she doesnt like and I want her to know that her protests are effective.
Thank you. I was expected to comply to my parents wishes and without an argument ("back talk") because they believed that they had a right to do things to my body against my wishes, if they felt it was necessary or desirable. I did not grant them that right. It was taken from me, against my protest, on many occasions; but that is what I was taught and I did not have a recourse when it progressed to improper touch. I was told "I am your father, I can hug you", although he fondled my breasts as he did so. And I was kissed on the mouth, although I turned away and he laughed 'I can kiss you, I am your father'. And other improper fondling. This "parental" defense does not convey *anyone* a right to do anything I don't want to my body. Never did, never will.

I want our son to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that no one has the right to decide what is acceptable touch to *his* body, EXCEPT him. And that each individual expects the same human right to the autonomy and integrity of their own body to be honored. Always. No matter what another's reasons or wishes. Even mine, his mother.

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Yes, I had wanted to thank you for that comment as well, sweetest! (I got distracted... don't know how?!)

It's a totally essential point in this topic of forcing diaper changes. And explained perfectly, scubamama. Very sorry your path has been so painful.







I've been down a similar one.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Yes, I had wanted to thank you for that comment as well, sweetest! (I got distracted... don't know how?!)

It's a totally essential point in this topic of forcing diaper changes. And explained perfectly, scubamama. Very sorry your path has been so painful.







I've been down a similar one.

Aira,

I am sorry to hear that also. It is precisely the genital body space integrity of diaper changes that makes it so relevant. I child needs to know and believe that they can ALWAYS say "No! This is my body. I decide." And if their "No" is not honored at home, where can they expect it to be honored? According to whom? Except for what reasons?

Who is to decide if not the individual?

Pat


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Wow, I started reading this thread, and I was thinking...whoa, not forcing even diaper changes? That is extreme. I am new at this parenting thing so I don't really know in what 'camp' I will fall into, i.e. authoritative but GD or non-coercive, but I usually picture myself as gently authoritative, kind of the style from "Kids are Worth It!". Although I think that in reality it will be hard for me not to be a "jellyfish" type of parent, i.e. permissive and inconsistent. But in my mind, at least, I have the idea that children do need to know that some things are non-negotiable, such as diaper changes, if they are not ready to go in a potty.

However, those last few posts really got me to thinking. Pat, I'm sorry about your bad experiences. That is awful. My dad certainly never fondled me inappropriately but he did tickle me until I peed and violated my personal space with abandon. He did not - ever - grant me the right to have my own feelings or my own space or my own anything. He inspired fear, terror...and as a result of his parenting, I didn't know how to say "no", I didn't know what boundaries were. It's been a long road to even start to have appropriate boundaries.

I just can't imagine doing that to my child. I never saw something like making a child get his diaper changed when he is struggling and protesting as being in the same category as tickling a child until they pee, or whatever. But now I will have to rethink that.

I still think that kids need some limits to be set by their parents, and I agree with much of what dharmamama posted; I am not down with the TCS philosophy or radical non-coercion. But this thread has given me pause and made me realize that I need to think about how I will handle situations like this in the future so as to always respect DD and let her set boundaries when it comes to her body. So what I am thinking tentatively IRT this particular issue is that holding her down to change her diaper would never be OK, for example. Whereas getting her to watch a video to distract her for a change, would be totally fine with me.

Interesting thread and I'm glad it didn't get derailed by a smilie war.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Thanks for your posts, everyone. I think scubamama articulated the thoughts that have been in the back of my mind but that I haven't really been able to consciously talk about.

I was never sexually abused, but my parents did NOT feel at all that they needed to respect me having any boundaries. There were several incidents by both parents which really violated my trust in them. One instance is when I had a loose tooth and my dad tied some floss around it, tied the floss to a door, and slammed the door shut.







: Or, I was tickled way past the point anyone should be tickled several times. Or, the time that my mom pretended to hug me, and the hug was an opener for her to pick a little weird bump off of my neck (yes, that is weird, but I VIVIDLY remember this and how stupid and horrible it was).

These types of things have given me a determination that my son will have as much autonomy as I can give him, especially when it comes to having control over his body and feelings (i.e. he is never ordered to give someone a huge and kiss, or other things that the parents around here do).

This thread has given me a lot to think about, in terms of what a small child can and should be able to say "NO" to, versus the guardian's need to ensure the well being of their children and the family as a whole.

Aira - the steam cleaning is a really good suggestion! Thanks, it does help to think in those terms.

Uh-oh... DS is awake...


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think it's easier for me to see where people are coming from with this - what also seemed to me - extreme reluctance to guide your children through uncomfortable situations.

My mom was a classic hippy from the 1960s. We had all the freedom we wanted and more. And my dad was the kindest of men. Absolutely no infringement of personal boundaries in our household.

Until I was about 11. Then I was so completely out of control that my life sort of fell apart. I had the judgment of a child and the body of a young woman. True to the pattern of my upbringing, there was no one whom I entrusted to oversee my choices or veto my bad decisions. Sure, I loved my parents and continued to be close to them, but I had long since been accustomed to having the ultimate say in exactly what I did. In that way, they were not 'parents' in the classic sense of the word. The dangerous and reckless behaviors of youth looked pretty appealing to me, and I was easy prey for people who didn't care one whit about what was damaging to me.

So that's the other end of that extreme.

On a completely separate note, I can easily understand the horror of a young child being compelled to submit to physical affection against their will. In that case, the emotional injury has a lot to do with the fact that both child and parent KNOW that the action is soley in the interest of the parent. They both recognize that the parent is sacrificing the child's sense of trust and safety in order to appease his/her own pathological sexual or emotional need.

Very injurious indeed.

But that's very different than caring for your son's needs, Kristi. You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.

The story about your mom pretending to cuddle so she could trick you into getting the lesion picked off your neck made a big impression on me. I'm absolutely unflagging in maintaining my daughter's trust, and I completely understand why this was so distressful for you.

I think it's scary for kids when they experience anger and resistence, especially when it's directed at their parents. Their little childish emotions just aren't mature enough to gauge when and what responses are appropriate to the situation - when they help, and when they HURT. That's your job, mom. When kiddo starts to react as though you changing his diaper is some sort of real trauma, that's when you help him to redefine the situation. That's when you emphasize that this is an appropriate time for TRUST. You help him to see and respond to situations in ways which are helpful rather than hurtful for him.

I hope that makes sense. I can see better where you're coming from now, and I'm hopeful that I can better show you what it is that I'm trying to convey.









blessed


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

On a completely separate note, I can easily understand the horror of a young child being compelled to submit to physical affection against their will. In that case, the emotional injury has a lot to do with the fact that both child and parent KNOW that the action is soley in the interest of the parent. They both recognize that the parent is sacrificing the child's sense of trust and safety in order to appease his/her own pathological sexual or emotional need.

Very injurious indeed.

But that's very different than caring for your son's needs, Kristi. You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.
I totally agree with this. I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.

I think I mentioned it before in this thread or another similar one, but let me say it again: when we tried to be noncoercive with our daughter regarding diaper changes (in our case, we tried "Let us know when you're ready to be changed"), which meant that she stayed in wet and dirty diapers longer than is ideal, we ended up with a yeast diaper rash that was beyond horrible. That rash, which made my daughter shake in pain when she was wiped, made me feel much worse as a parent than it does to occasionally impose my will on her for a much-needed change (when all else fails).

I think sometimes a young child cannot be given the full right to make a decision about some things, particularly where physical health and safety are involved, because that child cannot be reasonably expected to understand and anticipate the consequences.

I wonder, too, how those of you who say you will always honor a child's "No" handle medical needs. For instance, a few days ago, our two-year-old told us she had put a kernel of popcorn up her nose, a potentially dangerous situation. We had to take her to an after-hours clinic, and although we tried to explain and be distracting and cooperative, in the end there was no alternative to holding her down while she cried while the doctors examined her nose. Did I enjoy this? Heck, no, and we apologized and explained profusely afterwards. But what were our alternatives? How could I safely honor my child's "bodily integrity" and "No" in that case? What about those mamas whose babies have to be tube-fed, and who fight the insertion of the tube? What about my brother, who developed type 1 diabetes at 2 and had to have multiple injections every day to stay alive? You better believe he didn't want those shots, and fought them and cried, but what is a parent to do? Most children will eventually have to experience some kind of physical or medical procedure against their will. I wish it wasn't this way, but I don't think these necessary evils can be compared to sexual molestation. I bristle at the very suggestion.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Yeah, what loraxc and blessed said.

I was rereading my post and I used the wrong word. *Authoritarian* parenting is not my cup of tea at all, sorry! I was really tired. I meant...I think...*authoritative*...like Coloroso's "backbone" parents. Not permissive, *not* authoritarian. I hope authoritative is the right word. I can't believe I wrote "authoritarian"! I'll edit my post.

I wrote that I do not think total non-coercion is my way, but I want to clarify that that doesn't mean I think coerciveness is good as a general strategy! I think more in terms of *guidance*, as PP have said. Gawd, I need to start expressing myself better.

And I really need to get some better sleep.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

My son has recently not wanted to have his diaper changed or sit on the potty. Before, he loved both.

Two things that have worked:
1) Promise of Powder. Our little sensuous guy loves baby powder. So, I simply say, well... why don't we go put on some more baby powder???

2)Chaging his brother or his stuffed bear's diaper first. I ask him to come help me change their diaper... and then I say, can Bear change your diaper?? Or can Ali help change your diaper??? For some reason that works.

GOod luck


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Blessed I'm trying to understand your pov.







But I admit I'm a little confused.

Quote:

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.

Quote:

Life deals us all sorts of unpleasant situations. Our kids need the tools to govern their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can cope with them effectively.
I definitely agree with both of these quotes and think they are right on.









BUT I just don't see how this-

Quote:

'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'
or this-

Quote:

But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.
teaches the child anything but submission and she that shouldn't even bother to cry or make a fuss because it will make no difference. A bit like the agruement one who would be for cry it out would make. 'Well the baby may cry for awhile but it has to learn to deal with sleeping on its own.' Finding alternatives and coming up with pleasant ways to do something unpleasant is a better way to teach the child. Not might makes right, IMO. I believe one of your posts even said you were okay with finding alternatives.

here it is-

Quote:

I talked to her and coaxed her and offered different approaches to see if one felt better than the other.
I guess you draw the line where you deem reasonable, what one attempt, two, three? I applaud the op for coming here for SUPPORT and IDEAS.

Quote:

But at the end of the day, she learned that screaming and fighting with me simply doesn't grant her immunity from carrying through with unpleasant tasks. Rather, what she learned was how to manage her feelings of frustration and anger when life hands you a situation that isn't exactly to her liking.
See from my pov I would worry that at the end of the day dc has learnt something far different. I would worry she has learned to CONTAIN her feelings and expressions of frustration and anger, not DEAL with them.

And I think the point scubamama and aira makes IS a valid one. If a dc learns to submit to something physically against their will and learns 'making a fuss' will not stop it, that is a dangerous lesson. And if a dc learns to cnstantly be looking to mom for cues on when something is ok or not, WHO will they look to when mom is not there? The nearest adult or authority figure. I shudder to think. I would not want to be the one to send my child to shcool at 6 or preschool or daycare even younger. You CAN teach a child some things are best to be done without physically forcing them. You can teach a child to cope with the full myriad of human emotions without physically forcing them. And by goodness I would think a parent could be creative and patient enough, with most children, to find a way to change a diaper with out forcing them too.

And Blessed as far as the AD/HD thing, Little Johnnie most often gets written up for lack of attentiveness, distractedness, and/or inability to focus while sitting still hours on end. NOT for throwing tantrums in school. Little Johnnie likely just does not learn in the same way as Sally and Sue. Little Johnnie would also likely excel in a hands on learning environment. Or perhaps Little Johnnie is truly just an introvert and beong around so many people for hours on end is actually painful for him. Little Johnnie would probably be able to discover this if he had a wise adult to guide him instead of medicating him. Here is a good book to read if you are interested- The Smart Parenting Revolution by Dawna Markova, Ph.D. She talks alot about focusing on succuesses instead of failures and assets rather than decifits. An interesting read. I can quote some statistics about AD/HD if you are interested. It truly is amazing how over diagnosed this condition is in the US.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Maybe it's a little unfair for me to even make comparisons because, honest to gosh, my baby just does not tantrum with me. I've never had to physically FORCE her to change her diaper, or anything else. I guess the most accurate term for what I do would probably be _persuasion_.

But I do see her tantrum with other people, most notably dad, for example. So I tend to think that I'm doing something right here. With dad, I've done some coaching at his request, and he is now able to elicit much better communication and cooperation from her.

Example: last night playing at the public library. When time to leave he announces 'we've got to go now, honey' and picks her up. She wails and protests. I take her in my arms and look into her eyes and say "oh honey, you know why we have to go? Because it's dinner time. Papa's hungry and he hasn't eaten all day. You've had fun here today haven't you? (she nods) Me too. I LIKE it when you come with me to the library (hug). We'll come back very soon, okay? But now it's dinner time so we have to go. Say goodbye to your friends!" She waves happily and turns for the door.

So far and away that is the nature of how I guide her through tough spots that otherwise might lead to her being unhappy. It's really all about trust. She trusts me to help frame the situation for her - when it really IS okay, despite her initial unhappy responses.

But that trust come by way of CONSISTENCY. That is so critical, to the point that I hardly think the one can exist without the other. Baby knows that if I'm persistent and firm about something that needs to be done, well then, it's important. She's learned to take cues from me and she follows my lead. NOW that is. After I've done groundwork in laying that basis. A big part of that had to do with being firm and consistent in the beginning, when the rules of the game weren't entirely clear to her. That pretty much means sticking by your guns even when she's challenging me every way possible.

My baby's a post-institutionalized child (aka orphan), and statistically is supposed to be high risk for attachment disorders and developmental delays. But the complete opposite is true. She is developmentally 'gifted' (starting to read at 24 months, for example), and is obviously deeply, deeply bonded to our family. It's not uncommon that other moms get tears in their eyes when they watch baby and I interact (moms always seem to 'get it', dad's not so much







), because they are so moved by how devoted we are to each other.

So, I don't have the answers for every mom, obviously, since kids are so, so different. Just trying to share what worked - and I mean really worked well, despite odds against us - in my own family.

blessed


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.

I don't mean any offense whatsoever, here, but what I have to say is pretty direct: _How on earth can you know that?_ Why do you have the authority to even suggest what another person - who you've never even met - feels about encroachment into his personal space? His genitals, at that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorax*
I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.

A similar question here. Why are you offended by how another human is affected by and handles _their_ abuse experience? Do you really feel it's your place to "find offence" in another person's interpretation of what happened to _them_?

I mean, tons of Americans think that circ is no biggie, and that boys and men who complain about the abuse they suffered should toughen up and not be such sissies. Does that make those people right? Why do those people, who know nothing of the lifes of the victim or what they are feeling about it, get to have an opinion that there was no abuse? The person who lost a foreskin gets to decide just how violated he was.

I suppose that's the whole point here, some people are unwilling to push past the boundaries of those who are feeling violated - true on many levels, I see...


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Blessed, I'm glad to hear you are such a patient and consistent mom. I must've misread all the previous posts...


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Blessed you sound like a very gentle mama who is very devoted and







her dc.

Quote:

So, I don't have the answers for every mom, obviously, since kids are so, so different. Just trying to share what worked








I totally agree, I don't pretend to have all the answers.







Mothering is a diverse, challenging thing.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I totally agree with this. I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.

I think I mentioned it before in this thread or another similar one, but let me say it again: when we tried to be noncoercive with our daughter regarding diaper changes (in our case, we tried "Let us know when you're ready to be changed"), which meant that she stayed in wet and dirty diapers longer than is ideal, we ended up with a yeast diaper rash that was beyond horrible. That rash, which made my daughter shake in pain when she was wiped, made me feel much worse as a parent than it does to occasionally impose my will on her for a much-needed change (when all else fails).

I think sometimes a young child cannot be given the full right to make a decision about some things, particularly where physical health and safety are involved, because that child cannot be reasonably expected to understand and anticipate the consequences.

I wonder, too, how those of you who say you will always honor a child's "No" handle medical needs. For instance, a few days ago, our two-year-old told us she had put a kernel of popcorn up her nose, a potentially dangerous situation. We had to take her to an after-hours clinic, and although we tried to explain and be distracting and cooperative, in the end there was no alternative to holding her down while she cried while the doctors examined her nose. Did I enjoy this? Heck, no, and we apologized and explained profusely afterwards. But what were our alternatives? How could I safely honor my child's "bodily integrity" and "No" in that case? What about those mamas whose babies have to be tube-fed, and who fight the insertion of the tube? What about my brother, who developed type 1 diabetes at 2 and had to have multiple injections every day to stay alive? You better believe he didn't want those shots, and fought them and cried, but what is a parent to do? Most children will eventually have to experience some kind of physical or medical procedure against their will. I wish it wasn't this way, but I don't think these necessary evils can be compared to sexual molestation. I bristle at the very suggestion.


That was a good post. And what a point. I also do not believe in micro-managing my childrens' every moves, but certain things are non-negotiable, like carseats/seatbelts, brushing teeth, washing, and of course changing diapers. If your child is allowed to sit in filth and gets a bad rash because of it, that is out and out negligence and you CAN get into major trouble for it.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Do you really feel it's your place to "find offence" in another person's interpretation of what happened to them?
Yes, I feel it is my place to object when a needed diaper change, or any routine parental care done for reasons of hygiene and necessity and out of love, is compared to sexual molestation. I find it inflammatory. It's a very charged comparison to make.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Ya know, my parents told me that my boundaries were violated out of love, caring, and necessity. Does that make it true? Do you know for sure if I'm talking about diaper changes, carseats, spankings, or sexual abuse? I didn't specify.

Does your being offended make even the slightest difference in my experience, how I perceive and process it, or in the implications it has in my parenting? Not even a little.

How exactly does one convey to a small child, "No one should ever touch you in ways that feel bad to you, except if it's for your own good. And if they say they love you. But not if it's molestation!" Do they become desensitized to having their genitals touched against their will by things like this:

Quote:

"Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady" (snip) She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.
How exactly would a child know what feeling to trust, if they needed to call upon that instinct, when they are talked out of feeling violated when they object to having their genitals wiped? Isn't that the essence of what forms a victim?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Yes, I feel it is my place to object when a needed diaper change, or any routine parental care done for reasons of hygiene and necessity and out of love, is compared to sexual molestation. I find it inflammatory. It's a very charged comparison to make.

I am sorry that you find it inflamatory. I believe the application of the philosphy of force is a slippery slope. I am not equating the violation of one to the other. I honestly consider the philosophy of the use of force to be commonly applied: The end justifies the means. It just depends on whose ends and who has the means....the assumption of parental prerogative defense is the same.

I didn't have the sense to protest at times, I was so stunned questioning myself 'is this ok, my parent is doing it. I don't like it but what legitimizes my feeling of dissent?' And even when I did protest my dissent was overruled. The action taken against my body when protested on many other occasions dimissed my authority over my own body integrity. How could I have the authority when I didn't like the touch in one situation, have the authority in another situation?

The issue is the disregard for the child's inherent instinct and teaching reliance on another authority figure to legitimize their feelings as 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' _as deemed by an other person_ than himself is the similarity. And I believe this does not serve one to recognize and stand up for one's own personal boundaries through means other than adopting the same tools of conflict resolution that are modelled in childhood: the end justifies the means. Is this not the same philosophy of Bush, and other religious war mongering. It is the belief that _might makes right_.

Instead, seeking ways without defaulting to force, alters the tools that a child learns toward negotiation and peaceful conflict resolution. No matter what the ends, the means will be peaceful.

Pat


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Until I was about 11. Then I was so completely out of control that my life sort of fell apart. I had the judgment of a child and the body of a young woman. True to the pattern of my upbringing, there was no one whom I entrusted to oversee my choices or veto my bad decisions. Sure, I loved my parents and continued to be close to them, but I had long since been accustomed to having the ultimate say in exactly what I did. In that way, they were not 'parents' in the classic sense of the word. The dangerous and reckless behaviors of youth looked pretty appealing to me, and I was easy prey for people who didn't care one whit about what was damaging to me.

So that's the other end of that extreme.


I think that is interesting because I grew up in a GD home (though they didn't know the term







). There was no spanking, no grounding, no taking away privledges, etc. I found the outcome the exact opposite of you. I was the best equipped of all my friends to deal with the world. I was considered the most "mature", parents loved me, I did well in school, in all my jobs, etc. I really think it was because my parents treated me with respect and because we used the tools of the "adult" world - negotiation, talking, respecting, etc. instead of the tools typically used with children - threats and coercion. My parents were very involved in our lives. They shared their beliefs and the reasons behind him. It wasn't 'do it because I said so', it was 'here is WHY I believe this'. As a result, I do have many of the same beliefs and practices of my parents. My mom is from the south where things are polite and often formal







I love that about her and I love the things she shared with me about those beliefs growing up.

So as we have shared in other forums, GD doesn't mean No parenting. It sounds like the latter might have applied in your situation.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I stand by my statement and will not retract it. I find the comparison to be offensive. There is a world of difference between the "ends" being "I don't want my child to get a painful rash" and the "ends" being "I wish to gain sexual satisfaction by molesting a child." You may philosophize about slippery slopes if you like, but it does not hold water with me on this point.

I believe that I can teach my child the difference between (for instance) a doctor removing a piece of popcorn from her nose in my presence while it is explained why it needs to be done, and her being molested in secret.

Ironically enough, given this conversation, my daughter is no longer protesting changes at all, thanks to the "talking diaper" maneuver and other playful parenting/GD methods we are utilizing. But in any case, I don't think I want to continue the conversation. I am not interested in discussing the implication that I am raising my child to be a sexual victim by changing her poopy diaper.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I am not interested in discussing the implication that I am raising my child to be a sexual victim by changing her poopy diaper.

It's all in the _how_ you change a diaper - not _that_ you change a diaper.

I know you're not here anymore, but I think _that's_ inflamatory to distill a much more complex point down to: changing poop = sexual victimization. Duh! Of course it sounds inflamatory. But that wouldn't be a fair representation of my point.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
...GD doesn't mean No parenting. It sounds like the latter might have applied in your situation.

Yes, there is some truth to this. I'm glad that things were better for you, and I agree that harsh discipline in no way is needed to guide children.

I would be profoundly dismayed if my daughter didn't recognize the difference between my loving care of her and exploitive touching. I really think that this hints at a problem with basic trust within the child-parent relationship.

Baby KNOWs I would never, never do anything to hurt her. Not physically hurt her, necessarily, that's not the important distinction. Rather, she knows that sometimes things are tough - doctor exams, riding in a cramped car seat, having to stay up in my arms when we're walking through a busy parking lot - but that by helping her through these things I'm protecting her safety and well being. She knows this because I tell her so, and because we have had a long unbroken history of absolute love and care.

I think that the understanding between a child and parent that the parent is ALWAYS acting with the child's best interest at heart is key to developing trust relationships. And just like some above have pointed out, when this is not the case, when the parent is acting selfishly or against the interest of the child, the child is able to easily recognize it.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
And just like some above have pointed out, when this is not the case, when the parent is acting selfishly or against the interest of the child, the child is able to easily recognize it.

Sorry, not even close to true. Couldn't be further from true. Please do a little research about this before you post stuff as fact. Start with Alice ******, she's an easy and to-the-point read.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
She knows this because I tell her so

This is something I would be very uncomfortable with. I don't want my dds to do something just because I told them so and I REALLY don't want them to FEEL something just because I told them so. In fact I don't think that is possible, so what would seem to happen is that the child is left wondering 'why do I feel x when mommy says I should feel y". It is critical, to me, that my girls learn to listen to their bodies and their intuition and not listen to an outside judge, even if that judge is me. That seems to be a dangerous precedent to set.

Quote:

I think that the understanding between a child and parent that the parent is ALWAYS acting with the child's best interest at heart is key to developing trust relationships.
I think, again, the danger here is that all parents believe they are acting with the child's best interests at heart. We are just saying ask the child! Alfie Kohn is great about pointing out, it isn't your intent it is how it is perceived. Unfortunately, there can be a big difference there.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

But isn't saying "ask the child" a little simplistic, in that all children look to their parents for how they are "supposed" to feel? Even the ones with non-coercive parents? Obviously children have their own feelings. But they also have one eye open all the time to what is expected of them in a given situation, even if they live in a situation of total non-coerciveness. Humans are made to look for nonverbal signalling that tells them what is appropriate and what isn't.

It also seems like reflexively looking to the child for how to proceed in any given situation might make the child feel anxious because THEY know they don't have the answers, and are looking to adults for the answers. If adults then look to them, they may feel extremely uneasy with that kind of power! As if no one is in charge.

I'm sure my comments are naive to everyone else. But I guess I am just not convinced that honoring a child's feelings is the same thing as deferring to them when it's a question of their health and wellbeing (as diaper changes are).

After all, I'm sure even the most non-coercive parents changed their 9-month-old's diaper even when he didn't want it to be changed. (How on earth would you negotiate a mutually agreeable solution with a 9-month-old? Or a younger baby?) There must have been SOME point in the child's life where the parent made decisions for the child without first agreeing on a mutually agreeable solution. So when does that stop, when do you start negotiating?

I think it should be a more gradual process than what I see described by the non-coercion advocates on this board. I just don't think 2-year-olds should be given the responsibility of negotiating about *everything*! It's not about what's convenient for the parent. It's about what's good for their mental health, IMO.

Flame away...but I'm being serious, I really would like to hear answers to these questions.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

BTW I have read Alice ******. And Alfie Kohn.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Flame away...but I'm being serious, I really would like to hear answers to these questions.

No flaming from me anyway







I think the difference I see is talked about by Jan Fortune Wood. She describes the parent as trusted advisor BUT an advisor that can be fallible. I give my opinion and guidance to my kids all the time. But I would never tell them they *feel* differently than they do. "I know you don't like this but really it's ok". See with a statement like that the child is wondering but I *know* I feel bad/uncomfortable/angry why is mom saying I don't". Instead, if you can identify and validate the feelings then move to a constructive outlet for them then the child is still trusting their instincts but getting some new tools to use to express them and maybe even to reframe them.

The tone I have seen in some of the previous posts is 'I know best'. I really don't believe that we know best for another human being. We all feel and experience things so differently. But I can and do offer my advice, opinion and experience. It is just always open for discussion in light of how they are experiencing it. Their opinion is valid and as important. In fact, more imporant than mine when it comes to their body be it diaper changes, hunger, etc.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I think, again, the danger here is that all parents believe they are acting with the child's best interests at heart. We are just saying ask the child!
YES YES YES! Most parents believe they are doing what is right at the time. I thought I was doing 'what was best' 'for his own good' ' for his health' when I brushed my ds' teeth anyway the first time he refused. I WAS WRONG. I did not need to default to force. There were endless alternatives. I set up a power struggle over his body and his mouth. THAT DID NOT *NEED* TO HAPPEN. My ds4 is still curbing himself away from acting out 'might makes right' on other people. MY dd6 does not do this. Just a personality difference or likely because I forced him to get my way? I can't say for sure but I tell you I think it's likely my forcing him. The only time he is forceful is to get his way. Some may call this 'normal' behavior in a small child, but I am not so sure.

Yesterday we had a WIC appt. My back was turned talking with the nutritionist, and dp was watching(SUPPOSEDLY!!!!) dd and ds. I turned around for a second because heard a baby cry behind me. DD was sitting at a table and baby was standing beside her crying. DD was offering baby a piece of a board book(which was in pieces when we got there







). I suggested maybe baby wanted to get the book on her own and turned back around, finishing my conversation. When I came back to the kids and was telling them we were done, ds was crumpled on the floor, near tears, holding them back. Baby was in her dad's arms comforted. I got done on the floor with ds and he said. 'I thought I wanted the book.' and held out a yet another piece of the board book. I almost started crying at how terrible he felt. I quickly deduced he had taken piece from baby. I echoed back that he had thought he wanted it and suggested he could have waited until baby was done. I told him he could help baby feel better and give her back the book. He didn't look anywhere ready to pick himself up, still red faced and near tears so I picked up the piece and took it to baby. I asked her if she was ok and if she wanted the piece back. Dad smiled and took the piece for her.

Long story I know BUT WHAT HAVE I MODELED FOR MY DS????? Should I suppose he percieved my forceful teeth brushing as benign? No way. I will do all that I can to keep from modeling 'might makes right' again. At the time when I was some nights forcing him to get brushed before bed he was hitting me in the face as I lay next to him in bed. I didn't see it as related then at all. I do now. If someone pinned you down and pushed a brush in your mouth wouldn't you be feeling aggressive towards them? I am a gentle mother and my dc are very attached to me, BUT those actions were grave mistakes I'll do my best to not repeat.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
...it isn't your intent it is how it is perceived. Unfortunately, there can be a big difference there.

Good point. Maybe that is the key difference.

I'm absolutely confident that my baby believes that everything I do is out of love for her. I think that probably has a lot to do with why it is that I'm able to elicit such compliance from her.

Today I told her 'we have to rinse the soap out of your hair' (which she hates).
Would you like to do it yourself? (no!)
Would you like for me to do it? (no!)
Oh, but guess what? We can't leave that soap in there because it will make your head itchy! (scowls) Yeah, that's why I rinse the soap out of my hair too, remember? So, we'll just have to go ahead and do it. Yep, that's just how it is! (frowns, but nods her head and lays back in the water).
All done! Nice job rinsing your hair today! (throws her arms around my neck, and says 'mama!' approvingly)

Now with dad it's 'no! no!' and tears and dumping water on her head even though she doesn't like it. She just doesn't _believe_ him the same way she does me.

I think it has something to do with the fact that I never, never 'trick' her. On a different thread someone was talking about putting vicks vaporub on their daughter after she fell asleep, telling her 'oh, that's for me' when the daughter pointed at the jar. For me, that had a million red flags flying. Kids are so smart; there's little question that the girl knows when she wakes up smelling of vicks that her mom put it on her anyway. And then her trust in mom is eroded _just a little bit more_. My baby's dad does that stuff commonly - holding something behind his back and saying 'it's gone!' and so forth. I can't seem to convince him the harm that I think this does.

In that same cirucumstance, I would show my daughter the jar and tell her 'I'm going to put this on when you fall asleep, because it's good for you and you need it for your cold. I know you don't like it, but we'll use it today anyway because it's what you need to feel better'. And then I would do just that.

Rambling here. Anyway, hope that made a little sense.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks for not flaming! I'm still trying to work all of this out in my head. I'm sure my pov does not come off as being very consistent, because it isn't. I'm full of questions, and trepidation, as DD gets older and I get closer to having to decide what to do in these situations.

I guess blessed's description of what she does with her DD resonates with me best. I am actually so sensitive to DD's needs that it irks me when she is made the least bit unhappy by someone else (DH, usually) who is not quite as sensitive to her. And he's very sensitive, just not exquisitely so. Sometimes he can't seem to tell when she's about to get fussy because of being bored sitting on the floor, and that simply scooping her up and talking cheerfully to her will avert the fussiness, for example.

And I bend over backwards to make diaper changes quick and enjoyable. It pains me when she doesn't want her diaper changed. So I am certainly not about using physical force with diaper changes...however, although I distract the heck out of her and ply her with toys and songs and the like in order to make her happier during a change, the change itself is not something I would consider postponing or foregoing even if she threw a tantrum (unless it's just a wet diaper, that can wait a little)...anyway, I _think_. Part of me can see me feeling so helpless when she finally does throw a full-blown tantrum that I just give in...but then, as PP have pointed out, I'm actually not helping in the least, 'cause she'll end up with a nasty rash.

I'm sure that those of you who negotiate everything with your (little) kids are incredible parents but I doubt my ability to have the patience and creativity to do so...and I confess that I really doubt the rightness of this method, as my post above explains. For me the issue is going to be making myself a little MORE authoritative, and consistent, rather than always doing what she wants even if it is not ultimately what's best for anyone.

She's a baby right now and I cater to her every desire, and love doing so, but not a lot gets done other than that, and I just don't think that's a good model to follow as she gets older.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

EDIT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I'm absolutely confident that my baby believes that everything I do is out of love for her. I think that probably has a lot to do with why it is that *I'm able to elicit such compliance from her*.

Today I told her 'we have to rinse the soap out of your hair' (which she hates).
Would you like to do it yourself? (no!)
Would you like for me to do it? (no!)
Oh, but guess what? We can't leave that soap in there because it will make your head itchy! (scowls) Yeah, that's why I rinse the soap out of my hair too, remember? So, we'll just have to go ahead and do it. Yep, that's just how it is! (frowns, but nods her head and lays back in the water).
All done! Nice job rinsing your hair today! *(throws her arms around my neck, and says 'mama!' approvingly)*

*These are the big red flags to me.*


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

ETA: Yikes, I posted this to the wrong thread!!







Well, I guess I'll leave it here, and copy it to the other thread about "non negotiable" too, since it seems relevant in both places...oopsie.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, so I keep thinking about this....it's starting to become an obsession....









For me, I don't really go into any situation thinking it's non negotiable...I just have limits to what is agreeable to me, and if DS and I can't come to an agreement, I will make things as comfortable to him as I can, and then just move on. I'm certainly not looking for ways every day for me to exert my power, or impose my will on him, but if we can't come to an agreement fairly quickly, as the adult in the relationship I feel I am responsible for making the best of a situation, helping DS express and explore his feelings, and then move on.

I keep falling back to the feeling that if small children were meant to live on their own and make all the decisions regarding their life for themselves, we'd be like other mammals that are able to (and expected to) survive without their parents after a year or two. However, we are clearly not made that way...at the earliest, a teenager could make it on their own, albeit struggling. If you put a 6-year-old out into the world (even if it was back in the stone ages when there wasn't so much tenchology and rush, rush, rush) they still wouldn't be ableto survive on their own (and I'm not talking about emotionally, I'm talking about literal survival). I firmly believe that children *grow into* their ability to be independent, develop the ability to reason, gain the insight to see "the big picture", etc. etc. AND, that is why I will gradually hand over the reigns to my child(ren), base don their individual development and abilities.

I also firmly believe that every child is different, and what works in one situation for one child will not be the same for any other given child. This is why it is so important to be in tune with your children and their own individual needs and abilities, and not try to 'cookie cutter parent' by any one means.

I base a lot of my parenting on the way I was parented. I think I turned out pretty well







I don't have any resentment towards my parents, I don't have any boundary issues with my personal space, I don't have any feelings of resentment that my parents didn't value my opinions, and I certainly don't have any problem letting someone know if something they are doing to me or around me is NOT OK with me. AND, my parents were gentle, but sometimes coersive. Though I do live much of my life in the "mainstream world" (check out the sorta crunchy/sorta mainstream thread in Finding Your Tribe), I most certainly think critically about things that are going on in the world and do not believe anything told to me by "authorities" just because they say so.

So, for me it's not about things being non-negotiable - many, many times I negotiate with my child and find mutual solutions. However, when we come to stalemates because my son is not capable of *really* understanding the repercussions of things, I feel it is my job to move along the path of least resistance (not necessarily NO resistance), and just get the job done. This often means a compromise on *both* our parts, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I guess I just don't see the necessity for everyone to be 100% satisfied 100% of the time. I have a deep sense of satisfaction with my life, even though I don't always get exactly what I want/need, and quite frankly I have no desire to negotiate with people to be satisfied with the outcome all the time - a lot of things just don't matter that much to me...I'm trying to figure out how to say this nicely....I guess I feel that if someone feels the need to always be 100% satisfied with the solution or outcome to a situation (which to me is what mutually agreeable means, everyone is totally satisfied, but correct me if i'm wrong), there must be something going on (or have gone on previously in your life) that has left you feeling out of control or dissatisfied with your life somewhere...to me it seems, frankly, a bit naive. To me, part of growing into an adult is realizing that not being 100% satisfied with things all the time is OK, and that being mostly OK with things sometimes is just fine, you can have a joyous fulfilled life without always being totally satisfied with things...it seems like a burden to me to always have to figure out how to make myself happy AND make others happy at the same time. PLEASE realize I'm talking about everyday, mundane, daily living scenarios, NOT life changing situations or major life events.

I'm hoping to pass on this deepsense of satisfaction to my child(ren), and the resilience to always glean the best out of a situation even though it might not be exactly as they envisioned it.

AND, AGAIN - if my child was kicking, screaming, crying, etc. DAILY about any one situation or event, I would absolutely get to the bottom of what was causing the problem and find a way to work things out. However, for the occasional minor disappointment during a daily living situation, I just don't want to give it (the situation) that much power in my life, or my child's life. I want him to know that little situations shouldn't have that much power, that there is so much more to life than some of the minor inconveniences of daily living.

OK - I'm going to TRY to stop thinking about this now....at least for a few minutes.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
It also seems like reflexively looking to the child for how to proceed in any given situation might make the child feel anxious because THEY know they don't have the answers, and are looking to adults for the answers. If adults then look to them, they may feel extremely uneasy with that kind of power! As if no one is in charge.

I'm quoting this again because I think this is what you were saying was your sticking point. This is not at all what is going on in our home. My children look to me all the time, I am with them all the time. We negotiate the world together. I provide them with a constant flow of information, they use that information to make decisions. They trust my input and I completely value their opinions. They have shown me time and time again that they have the coolest insights and the bonus of having no baggage









As for the refrain that it is too much work







That just doesn't make sense to me either. I love being a mom but I love it because our house is filled with joy. I would not love if it were filled with contention and power struggles. As I've said before, I believe where I put my energy is what grows so I choose to put my energy in to positive, respectful relationship. That is not a dig to anyone else, honestly, I don't know what is happening in other's homes. I just know that how my home is being described "constant negotiation" "24/7 negotiation" isn't the way. We have intelligent exchanges, they take no more time than the typical power struggles I see in more mainstream homes. The difference is that we are all smiling


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
I keep falling back to the feeling that if small children were meant to live on their own and make all the decisions regarding their life for themselves, we'd be like other mammals that are able to (and expected to) survive without their parents after a year or two.

I addressed this in my PP but wanted to say it again here - because you live consensually does not mean that children are left on their own!! I am with my children every day, we negotiate the world together. Nothing happens in a vaccuum. This just isn't a fair representation of consensual living. I will say it is a choice to be fully engaged but again for me it is where I want to put my energy.

Quote:

it seems like a burden to me to always have to figure out how to make myself happy AND make others happy at the same time. PLEASE realize I'm talking about everyday, mundane, daily living scenarios, NOT life changing situations or major life events.
Maybe that is a difference between us - those things that you describe as "mundane and everyday" are the spice of life for me. They are the most important things because they are what make up our day to day life. I don't see it as a burden at all, I'm not trying to please everyone. We are a family, 4 individuals - we all have different needs, wants, skills, etc. Part of the fun it figuring out how to live together joyfully. Again, not a burden and not unrealistic because I'm doing it and have been for years.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I addressed this in my PP but wanted to say it again here - because you live consensually does not mean that children are left on their own!! I am with my children every day, we negotiate the world together. Nothing happens in a vaccuum. This just isn't a fair representation of consensual living. I will say it is a choice to be fully engaged but again for me it is where I want to put my energy.

Maybe that is a difference between us - those things that you describe as "mundane and everyday" are the spice of life for me. They are the most important things because they are what make up our day to day life. I don't see it as a burden at all, I'm not trying to please everyone. We are a family, 4 individuals - we all have different needs, wants, skills, etc. Part of the fun it figuring out how to live together joyfully. Again, not a burden and not unrealistic because I'm doing it and have been for years.

I posted on the other thread, Scubamamas non negotiable thread, that I think I'm realizing that a lot of us are probably a lot closer in practice than we think we might be....I think we might just be saying things in different ways and actually when it comes down to it, our daily lives probably aren't that much different.

I am not sure if we will ever find a common language to describe things, as soemtimes I think that both "sides" (coersive/noncoersive) - myself included - are making assumptions and/or oversimplifying things when we post because it's hard to get nuances in writing (and I apologize for any assumptions or offense I may have caused anyone) , but I would bet you if we each spent a few days in each others' households, we wouldn't be as different as it might seem on "paper"! (see my last post on the other thread re: toothbrushing and our extensive search for an eventual solution!)


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I addressed this in my PP but wanted to say it again here - because you live consensually does not mean that children are left on their own!! I am with my children every day, we negotiate the world together. Nothing happens in a vaccuum. This just isn't a fair representation of consensual living. I will say it is a choice to be fully engaged but again for me it is where I want to put my energy.

Also, wanted to clarify that I didn't mean that if you live consensually, your children are on their own...I just meant that the way I understand it, when you live totally consensually your child has the ultimate last say on every aspect of their life, which to me doesn't seem to be appropriate for the reasons I described in my previous post....am I incorrect in my assumption? Please let me know if I am.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I personally tell DS what it is that I feel a need to accomplish, or what my goals are that I must reach. Then we work together to solve our goals together. It wouldn't be _negotiation_ if DC got their way all the time.

To keep on-topic (as much as can be expected at this point), today when DS pooped and didn't want a change, I just explained to him that I had a concern about his skin staying healthy. I asked for his help if keeping him safe. (I'm paraphrasing, but it's the gist.) I promised him a favorite story and to be gentle - a recent concern of his. I address the things that he worries about happening, like having a rough hand. He played for a couple more minutes and then lay down for the change, apparently feeling more secure that his concerns were addressed. I forced nothing - physically or verbally. His actually needs were actually addressed. So were mine.

Honestly, DS has never sat in a dirty diaper for more than 10-20 minutes. Some of the struggles have been talked about here. But I think it's worth the effort - as I've already said - to get DC's consent to it and not just force it. I honestly can't understand why anyone thinks that getting consent means we neglect basic hygene!? Do you guys really envision that our kids are sitting around in poop all day?


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
I just meant that the way I understand it, when you live totally consensually your child has the ultimate last say on every aspect of their life, which to me doesn't seem to be appropriate for the reasons I described in my previous post....am I incorrect in my assumption? Please let me know if I am.

Yes, but probably not in the way you are picturing it. They aren't making decisions in a vacuum. They are getting constant input from trusted advisors. They use that input to make sound decisions. My kids are naturally taking on more issues and responsibility as they get older, they don't want to be on their own - goodness we still co-sleep







I have seen them defer decisions when they are uncomfortable making them alone, they are so great at recognizing their limitations and soliciting input when needed. Those are the skills I have seen develop over the years as we have practiced living consensually.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I honestly can't understand why anyone thinks that getting consent means we neglect basic hygene!?
I have no idea what getting consent means to someone else's diaper changes. All I know is that when WE tried getting consent for every change with DD, she delayed longer than ideal and we ended up with a rash. She is very sensitive to acidic poop (happens when she eats a lot of fruit) and it doesn't take long for it to irritate her...she has sensitive skin.

Here's the thing. I like to make a practice of believing that other parents, especially on the GD board!, are trying their best to be gentle, thoughtful parents. I also know that different children and different families and situations are....different. So I try not to assume that somehow I must have the magic answer when other people have struggles with kid issues I don't (for instance, DD has no problem at all getting her teeth brushed, something I know many toddlers hate). My kid sometimes fights diaper changes, and at times it has gotten to the point where we had to be somewhat physically coercive so that we did not end up with a rash and a problem. That's my kid. This is an issue for her. It's a Thing for us. I want to be compassionate towards other parents whose kids have Things around issues that are or border on being nonnegotiable, for the sake of health/sanity/household livability. I think it can induce a lot of anxiety and paralysis to expect every parent out there to live up to the standard of total consensus all the time. It's a very high standard.

Contrary to what I imagine a few of you think, our house is remarkably free of power struggles. For instance, our DD eats a great, varied diet with absolutely no wheedling or struggle, cheerfully allows us to dress and bathe her, like to have her teeth brushed, and sleeps extremely well 90% of the time. We have had struggles with nail-clipping and face-washing at times, but we seem to be past that in general. She does have tantrums, but they are almost always about her own personal frustrations with not being able to do things as well as she wants to. I am actually VERY anti-power struggle and strive every day to avoid that dynamic. I just do think that there are occasional cases in life when you have tried, and tried, and X needs to happen for Y reason. I don't think that that is crippling to the parent-child relationship. If it was, 99% of children in America (since I would wager not even 1% of parents are trying to be totally consensual) would be irrevocably warped and unhappy.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Yes, but probably not in the way you are picturing it. They aren't making decisions in a vacuum. They are getting constant input from trusted advisors. They use that input to make sound decisions. My kids are naturally taking on more issues and responsibility as they get older, they don't want to be on their own - goodness we still co-sleep







I have seen them defer decisions when they are uncomfortable making them alone, they are so great at recognizing their limitations and soliciting input when needed. Those are the skills I have seen develop over the years as we have practiced living consensually.

We co-sleep, too - see, I knew we had stuff in common







I guess maybe I'm coming from a standpoint that even with my input, even with suggestions and explanations and alternatives, sometimes my DS only wants to do things his way....and sometimes, that's just not agreeable to me. So, I try my best to make him as comfortable and happy as I can, but don't find it to be a deal breaker if he's a little grumbly and/or minorly disappointed. Honestly, even with my occasional "use of force", I haven't really had him flip a wig yet - it's mostly just an irked reaction, like, "hey, this isn't really what I wanted", and it almost always is redirected in less than 5 minutes - in fact, I can't ever remember it lasting longer than 5 minutes. Since my DS is only 2, perhaps as he gets older and continues to experience me being flexible as much as possilbe with him, he will start engaging in reasonable problem solving discussions with me...however, at this point in his life, he's still *sometimes* "desire on wheels", and doesn't give a hoot about any alternative I offer that's not 100% what he wants to do.

Or, maybe he's just a lot like his dad.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
We co-sleep, too - see, I knew we had stuff in common









I bet we have lots in common







I also think you will see your ds grow and become better at finding solutions as he gets older. They just need a chance and a model.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Yes, but probably not in the way you are picturing it. They aren't making decisions in a vacuum. They are getting constant input from trusted advisors. They use that input to make sound decisions. My kids are naturally taking on more issues and responsibility as they get older, they don't want to be on their own - goodness we still co-sleep I have seen them defer decisions when they are uncomfortable making them alone, they are so great at recognizing their limitations and soliciting input when needed. Those are the skills I have seen develop over the years as we have practiced living consensually.








:

Quote:

I bet we have lots in common I also think you will see your ds grow and become better at finding solutions as he gets older. They just need a chance and a model.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Having been in foster homes, group homes and other juvenile care facilities as a child I have known many abused kids, and have heard many detailed accounts of what they went through. Many of them where forced into doing things they didn't want to, but a great many of them, when it involved family members & known authority figures, where "negotiated" and talked into it, NOT forced the way I have made Emma tolerate a change of clothes. Plenty of children are negotiated into it (offered candy, a short story under the blankets) have molestation occur as part a fun game, in fact, one of the biggest contributors of guilt in many of the survivors of childhood sexual abuse that I've known has been that they let this happen, that they never did actively resist, that they where confused about their own feelings, confused about if it was wrong or not, at the time. Many pedophiles think that they love children, and the molestation acts are surrounded by niceness and fun games, it is NOT always about being forced against their will, I would confidently say that it often isn't. I wonder if it is or isn't, the majority of the time, but have no access to info on this, just the many abuse victims I've shared stories with. And most of the ones I've heard about childhood molestation stories from, where not physically forced to do anything, but convinced through negotiation to let things happen to them.

I do think that forcing kids to be affectionate with hugs and kisses when they don't want to be with other people, could create body boundary issues, I do not agree that a sincere mother making a child have a poopy diaper changed is setting them up for abuse, at all, I can think of many examples where negotiation could be looked at in the same far-fetched way, however.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Having been in foster homes, group homes and other juvenile care facilities as a child I have known many abused kids, and have heard many detailed accounts of what they went through. Many of them where forced into doing things they didn't want to, but a great many of them, when it involved family members & known authority figures, where "negotiated" and talked into it, NOT forced the way I have made Emma tolerate a change of clothes. Plenty of children are negotiated into it (offered candy, a short story under the blankets) have molestation occur as part a fun game, in fact, one of the biggest contributors of guilt in many of the survivors of childhood sexual abuse that I've known has been that they let this happen, that they never did actively resist, that they where confused about their own feelings, confused about if it was wrong or not, at the time. Many pedophiles think that they love children, and the molestation acts are surrounded by niceness and fun games, it is NOT always about being forced against their will, I would confidently say that it often isn't. I wonder if it is or isn't, the majority of the time, but have no access to info on this, just the many abuse victims I've shared stories with. And most of the ones I've heard about childhood molestation stories from, where not physically forced to do anything, but convinced through negotiation to let things happen to them.

I do think that forcing kids to be affectionate with hugs and kisses when they don't want to be with other people, could create body boundary issues, I do not agree that a sincere mother making a child have a poopy diaper changed is setting them up for abuse, at all, I can think of many examples where negotiation could be looked at in the same far-fetched way, however.

Fascinating perspective, Soundhunter...sad and scary, but very interesting point made IMHO. Not saying it gives parents license to do whatever they want in forcing diaper changes or car seats (without first trying to look for alternatives) because of good intentions, what have you, but interesting perspective on the perception of the child in various situations.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I think this is where hindsight makes the difference.

Those looking back and seeing abuse have to face it then, when they are mature enough to have some understanding. Those looking back to seeing hygene and care will think of it what they will. I doubt that will be interpreted as abuse, provided their needs were honored and with trepidation respected.

Don't forget, those of us whose boundaries were just plowed through in sexual ways were also told that it was for our own good, and made to think that we shouldn't feel bad about what was happening.

I don't think for a second that a child in the middle of a diaper change knows or cares if Mom is doing what's best. I don't think they have the capacity to reason that. It's because children see things so differently (diaper changes can be traumatic and molestation can seem normal) that we owe them treating them with care on _their_ terms too.

It's a statement of just how fragile children are at this age. It really is up to us to treat them with the best of intentions, knowing that _all_ their boundaries require our respect - even boundaries they can't know about at young ages.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Very thought-provoking post, soundhunter. My own abuse did not involve any kind of physical force, and I think you're right that most incidents do not. The fact that I did not physically protest had nothing to do with whether or not my parents changed my diapers under protest (probably, I imagine, though I don't know) and everything to do with the fact that I trusted my abuser and did not even understand "sexuality" yet. I can quite clearly imagine a situation where abuse is "negotiated" ("How about we do this special thing for a while, then we'll go the park and get an ice cream?")

Preventing one's child from becoming an abuse victim is a complicated issue. I do not think noncoercive parenting is any kind of magic Protect-All.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I worked with child victims of sexual assault for years and definitely agree that it is not always about force. I did notice a trend of feeling powerless. I think many children in our society feel powerless because there are so many things done against their will and very often their opinions are not solicited or valued. So I do think that plays a role and probably one of the reasons that I choose to empower my children, especially when it concerns their personal space and body.

I think the great thing about MDC is that there are so many intentional parents here. That is bound to change the world


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Preenting one's child from becoming an abuse victim is a complicated issue. I do not think noncoercive parenting is any kind of magic Protect-All.
I totally agree. But it is a positive step towards prevention, IMO. I suppose the only protect all I see is mommy ALWAYS being with her child until an age where the child fully understands molestation and is comfortable themselves that they will not let that happen to them as long as they can control it. Of course something like rape can not be controlled but we can't live in constant fear of that. This is just not practical for some families, but I see no other protect all for a young child.

Quote:

I worked with child victims of sexual assault for years and definitely agree that it is not always about force. I did notice a trend of feeling powerless. I think many children in our society feel powerless because there are so many things done against their will and very often their opinions are not solicited or valued. So I do think that plays a role and probably one of the reasons that I choose to empower my children, especially when it concerns their personal space and body.

I think the great thing about MDC is that there are so many intentional parents here. That is bound to change the world
Exactly.

Soundhunter I'm not sure if the point of your post was to imply that negotiating with a child is dangerous to them and just as likely to lead to victimization? Or if you feel both negotiation and coercion are null and void to the argument?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Those looking back and seeing abuse have to face it then, when they are mature enough to have some understanding. Those looking back to seeing hygene and care will think of it what they will. I doubt that will be interpreted as abuse, provided their needs were honored and with trepidation respected.

I think in a healthy child-parent relationship (any relationship, really), there is a very clear implicit trust that touching is not intended to cause harm.

There was really a remarkable degree of neglect in my home, and people who know my family and my history have often commented about how my sibs and I seemed to come through our childhoods relatively unscathed. We're all pretty happy, are longterm happily married, have great kids and are successful in our careers. In answer I'll often say that, in my mind, with regards to parenting there are crimes of _ommission_ and crimes of _commission_. The latter are far, far more difficult to overcome.

Although he was often emotionally absent due to his substance abuse, we kids knew absolutely and unequivocally that dad loved us and that we meant the world to him. There was never even the slightest suggestion of anything other than loving intent for us. I could never imagine in my wildest dreams my father inappropriately touching me, or otherwise exploiting my body or emotions.

That absolute trust in a parent's honest intentions for your well being goes a long, long way in building your ability to trust in others and have successful relationships. That same trust in now transfered to my husband, and I parent my daughter with that ideal of establishing unadulterated belief in my love for her.

I DO think that a child interpreting a diaper change as molestation is pathological and would reflect an impaired state of trust in the parent. Now, Kristi's son may just be showing normal frustration with the tedium of the task, and not objecting to her touch. So I don't make reference to her situation in saying this. Rather, I'm just speaking to the idea that a child may interpret molestation in a mother's care of him/her, and what - in my mind - that would insinuate.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
Soundhunter I'm not sure if the point of your post was to imply that negotiating with a child is dangerous to them and just as likely to lead to victimization? Or if you feel both negotiation and coercion are null and void to the argument?

Actually, my main point is, though not said outright, that pedophiles often approach children very kindly and playfully, and will "groom" children for molestation, and will find out what it would take to access them, in many cases, with the child "allowing" it to happen (often because they want to play with that person too, or want to read stories under the covers, or want to build a tent, etc, with this person). I don't think there is a single parenting style that can completely protect children, though as previously mentioned, the mother or father being with the child at all times is a better bet, if neither parent are molesters (this is the approach we have with Emma, until she is old enough to be safer, in our opinions) I don't think that children parented non coercively with a focus on negotiation to meet each others needs is any more protected than a child whose mother prevents diaper rashes by forcing a diaper change, but while also expressing care for the child's feelings during the process. As mentioned previously by other posters, intent is everything, and ultimately, it's not the sex acts themselves that give small children inklings that the molestation might be wrong, it's the odd vibes given by the intent of the molester, even if they seem realy playful and fun. (older kids know better, about the sex part, of course) I have no doubts, that Emma knows on whatever level a 2 yr old is capable of knowing, even when she is frustrated with me, that I am not using her for my own personal gratification. I think if someone was trying to do that to her, she is too young to be able to protect herself no matter how she's been parented, but that she would have a creepy feeling, somewhere in her belly, that something was wrong here, in a much different kind of way. That's the whole thing with the protecting the gift book, those belly feelings, that deep internal instinct, that something is wrong. That is a much different deal, then having strict parents who are also loving and while not always accomodating, do care and consider the feelings of their children. I don't have ay doubts that children have those belly feelings, and do know the difference, on some internal level.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Too, I think it's incorrect to think that allowing a child to refuse basic hygiene will somehow provide him with the skills needed to rebuff sexual abuse. Or else the contrary: that loved, attended to children are more vulnerable to abuse.

As described above, the methods used by abusers are many and are complex. If an abuser has access to your child and given enough time, likely he will be able to ultimately succeed. Some abusers put months and years into establishing a trust relationship with the child which they can then exploit. In such cases, the parents are usually duped as well. To protect our kids we really have to maintain a high index of suspicion, and take measure such that the opportunities just don't arise.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

allowing a child to refuse basic hygiene
I'm not sure where anyone said this would be acceptable to them. Rather search for a way to have basic hygiene consent worthy for the child. Who advocated for a child refusing basic hygiene AND not getting basic hygiene? Of course a child showing distress and discomfort AND refusing basic hygiene would be a situation which might take a lot of energy to make those things consent worthy. A little energy or alot, worth it IMO.


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