# Is it okay for kids to sing on the train?



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

We took the train (commuter rail) into the city the other day with another family. Each family has a 5yo and a 2yo.

I learned that we have different approaches when it comes to public transport!

I treat the train like I do a restaurant, I expect my kids to use indoor voices. Squealing and shouting is not allowed.

The other family encouraged the children to sing. Loudly. Often.

I felt like a harridan in comparison, constantly shushing my kids when they made noises that were loud enough to be heard from a few seats away. I'm not going to change my take on this







, but I wondered what the general consensus here was.


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## brownskinchinee (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with you. I don't let my dd sing or talk too loudly while on the train or the bus. If she wants to sing (which he most often does) we sing quietly for a few mins then we play some other game. You never know who's on the train or how tired they are. They may not want to hea your kid sing no matter how beautiful you think it is. lol.


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## Just Kate (Jul 30, 2009)

I would encourage my children to use indoor voices and be as courteous as possible.

(We never ride trains, but we do take the bus occasionally)


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## Chryseis (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh dear, that would drive me absolutely bonkers! Yeah, trains and buses are definite indoor voice places. People who commute on trains and buses often use that time for work, homework, rest, quiet contemplation, etc. Not the place for loud musical merriment.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I encourage a normal tone of voice inside, but I wouldn't shush my dd if she were singing or laughing. Other people have the same right to have conversations in a normal tone so I don't see any reason why my child shouldn't talk or sing in the same tone if that is what she chooses to do. There are many conversations that take place on the bus that are much worse to hear than a childs voice but since we live in a community with other people we tend to just brush those things off and not dwell on them, kids should get the same respect when they want to do something positive and harmless. If you run into someone who obsesses about things like that you could refer them to a good counselor so they can learn to let little things go.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I wouldn't allow singing or loud voices or boisterous activity.

What was the other family thinking? How rude!

I think that when many people have to share a small space, everyone should err on the side of being more courteous than less.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I encourage a normal tone of voice inside, but I wouldn't shush my dd if she were singing or laughing. Other people have the same right to have conversations in a normal tone so I don't see any reason why my child shouldn't talk or sing in the same tone if that is what she chooses to do. There are many conversations that take place on the bus that are much worse to hear than a childs voice but since we live in a community with other people we tend to just brush those things off and not dwell on them, kids should get the same respect when they want to do something positive and harmless. *If you run into someone who obsesses about things like that you could refer them to a good counselor so they can learn to let little things go.*

Oh, my mental health is perfectly fine.

I just don't think it's appropriate for *anybody* to sing loudly on the train, child or adult. It's annoying to other people.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh come on, it's children _singing_ -- how delightful!!








Just kidding, I just couldn't resist a reference to your dancing-on-the-counters thread x-posted from here to the CH way back when. You know, that post of yours is what got me hooked on this place!


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
oh come on, it's children _singing_ -- how delightful!!








just kidding, i just couldn't resist a reference to your dancing-on-the-counters thread x-posted from here to the ch way back when. You know, that post of yours is what got me hooked on this place!









Hee! I love the differing opinions from the two worlds. It makes me balanced.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Hee! I love the differing opinions from the two worlds. It makes me balanced.

Yep. The irony is that between your mention of this place and KT's mention of TwoP, I no longer have any time left for the CH itself! So it's nice to see familiar "faces" like you and MG around here. Say hi to everyone for me!


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

I think everybody should have consideration for others on public transport, which includes not talking loudly (especially on mobile phones!!), singing, loud music form MP3 players, putting your bag on the seat so no can sit next to you, elbowing, feet on the seats, strong body odor and eating smelly foods.

Oh and what irritates me the most is when try and get on the train before people have had a chance to get off and when people shove you as they push past you to get a seat









Before Christmas I took my kids into the city to see the lights and decorations which takes about an hour so I made sure I had some toys, snacks and games ready to make the trip fun as I know sitting still for an hour is hard for kids.


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## Dukey25 (Nov 19, 2006)

I agree with the OP but I would guess my DH would be more liberal. I try not to bother other people. I try to stress to my kids how their actions affect others.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Yep. The irony is that between your mention of this place and KT's mention of TwoP, I no longer have any time left for the CH itself! So it's nice to see familiar "faces" like you and MG around here. Say hi to everyone for me!









I know!

Somebody from there turned me on to this site, too (nrgy?). I'm glad I found it, I've gotten so much out of mdc... but there really is only so much time I can spend online, spreading my bon mots... lol. Good to "see" you!


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I often travel by train for work, and I almost always have prep work to do on the train. I try to sit in the quiet car, but there isn't always one. If there isn't another quiet car, I wouldn't expect people to be silent, especially children--but I do expect (and expect of my dd, when she is with me) for people to behave as they would in any enclosed public space, which means no screaming, shouting, etc. Other people will be trying to sleep, work, have their own conversations, listen to music, read, etc. I think it's incredibly rude to actually encourage your kids to speak/shout at the top of their lungs. Travel is stressful enough.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think your expectation that itwould be the same behavior as at a resteraunt is perfect. normal talking, laughing even singing is fine but inside voices and nothing to rowdey.

I had a friend who always encouraged her children to sing loudly and allowed them to scream and run in public places. We stopped hanging out in enclosed places until they were over it. first of all I was humiliated to be associated with such obnoxious children and secondly I did not want my children to pick up such bad manners. and it was impossible to carry on a conversation.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I think it really depends on how crowded the train is, if it is commuting times (rush hours), and if it is a weekend or a week day.

If it is relatively empty, middle of the day, or on the weekends, the singing is probably fine. If it bugs someone, they can always move to a different seat, etc.

If it was a crowded train, I would encourage my kids to use polite voices, and probably not sing... but otherwise a soft singing voice would be okay.

Perhaps this is the way the family keep their kids still and not running around the train, etc. ?

I agree that rowdy behavior hurts my head and I wouldn't want to be associated with it.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

OP, you were correct. I'd have been embarrassed to be with the other family who was encouraging/allowing louder voices (whether singing or talking) from their kids. Did you try to engage all the kids in some kind of I Spy game or something to keep the loudness to a minimum? What did the other mom think about your differing philosophies?


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

My son has autism and has a hard time understanding and controlling the volume of his voice. If he decided to sing on a train I'd probably let him. It's much better for people to hear rather than him tantruming because he can't deal with the sensory issues that come along with train riding.

I'm sure many people think we're rude and terrible parents when we're out in public.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
My son has autism and has a hard time understanding and controlling the volume of his voice. If he decided to sing on a train I'd probably let him. It's much better for people to hear rather than him tantruming because he can't deal with the sensory issues that come along with train riding.

I'm sure many people think we're rude and terrible parents when we're out in public.

I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

I don't think it's ok for anyone, of any age, to bother other people on public transportation (bus, train, airplane, etc.). Kids singing really loudly would annoy me as much as a the dude screaming on his cell phone or the two people talking so loud the whole car can hear. It's rude and disrepsectful.

Sounds like the other family you were with thought it was cute that their kids were singing loudly; they probably like the attention associated with it.

I teach my kids respect for those around them...so no, that is not ok with me.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
I think it really depends on how crowded the train is, if it is commuting times (rush hours), and if it is a weekend or a week day.

If it is relatively empty, middle of the day, or on the weekends, the singing is probably fine. If it bugs someone, they can always move to a different seat, etc.

If it was a crowded train, I would encourage my kids to use polite voices, and probably not sing... but otherwise a soft singing voice would be okay.


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## Down2Earth (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm imagining this when I think of a bunch of children singing on a train. Or maybe this while I wait for my train.

Whew! That was a lot of solfège!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I agree with you too.

Growing up in Chicago, I had homework and studying to do on the train. I wouldn't have liked the distraction.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

It wouldnt bother me. As long as they where sitting still and not running around and jumping on everyone singing would be just fine. Riding is boring in a car, train, bus etc


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## Doodadsmom (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
My son has autism and has a hard time understanding and controlling the volume of his voice. If he decided to sing on a train I'd probably let him. It's much better for people to hear rather than him tantruming because he can't deal with the sensory issues that come along with train riding.

I'm sure many people think we're rude and terrible parents when we're out in public.

I agree with the OP in general, but if there are special needs involved, that's different. Other people might not appreciate it and I could sympathize with that too but we have to do what's best for our kids.


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## nelson (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I encourage a normal tone of voice inside, but I wouldn't shush my dd if she were singing or laughing. Other people have the same right to have conversations in a normal tone so I don't see any reason why my child shouldn't talk or sing in the same tone if that is what she chooses to do.

I agree.

I can understand not encouraging loud voices, but when did everyone get so, "children should be seen and not heard?" I would think most people on a train would get over a two year old singing a little louder than what is considered socially acceptable and probably even find it a tiny bit cute.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

I think there are plenty of people on trains who talk very loudly on their cell phones, and no one thinks twice about it. It's just a fact of life. When did the sounds of children become so unacceptable? I mean, I'm all for courtesy and manners....but why are these things just for children?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NicaG* 
I think there are plenty of people on trains who talk very loudly on their cell phones, *and no one thinks twice about it*. It's just a fact of life. When did the sounds of children become so unacceptable? I mean, I'm all for courtesy and manners....but why are these things just for children?

About the bolded, really? I hear _so many_ people complaining about people who talk loudly on their cell phones in places like trains and restaurants -- it's definitely not an issue I would say people don't think twice about. But we can't control how loudly a random stranger decides to talk on their phone, so usually we don't say anything to them about it.

Our kids, however, rely on us to teach them socially appropriate behavior, so I don't see anything wrong with teaching them that it's polite to keep their voices to a normal, rather than extra loud, volume while on a train or in a restaurant. I didn't notice anyone in this thread advocating that kids should be forced to be completely silent while on trains.


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## AnnieNimIty (Nov 14, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.


This is the dividing line between what is good for the public and what is good for the family.
The other people might prefer to hear a tantrum but they don't have to deal with it, or the upset child.
I think "bad behavior" is different when there are limitations like autism involved. Obviously normal for that family isn't the normal these other families have to deal with.
Sometimes the other commuters will have to practice some compassion.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

It all depends, in my opinion, on the volume of noise, type of train and the general atmosphere of the train at that particular time and day. There are two types of trains in NYC: the subway and the commuter trains coming from the surrounding metropolitan areas. I've been riding the subway for almost 20 years (only three of those years with DD) and while generally most people are polite, you deal with a lot of crappola and attitude (from adults). To be frank, singing children are not on my laundry list of gripes, especially if their singing is born out of joy and not done just to be annoying. I don't expect to read, meditate or rest on the subway, especially a crowded subway where my face is lodged in some guys armpit while I'm trying find a pole to balance myself.

DD went through a period when she was around 2.5 where she sang constantly. She did sing on the subway but it was never loud and never visibly offended anyone. In many instances she could not be heard over the general chatter, panhandlers or the screeching teenagers on their way to school. (argghh...screeching teenagers). I think that she learned fairly quickly what is appropriate and what is not. Plus, the older she gets, the less likely she wants to draw attention to herself. I try not to make blanket judgments about young children on the subway, because it is hard work to keep a toddler distracted and/or entertained in a closed environment. I can usually tell if a parent is really trying or if they don't care what their child is doing.

I believe there is a different standard on commuter trains (like the DC Metro and NJ Transit). On those types of trains, the atmosphere is generally more subdued and the irritations are a little more obvious. So, it all depends.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NicaG* 
I think there are plenty of people on trains who talk very loudly on their cell phones, and no one thinks twice about it. It's just a fact of life.

Yeah, it's a fact of life, but it's annoying.

Adults who are obnoxiously loud in enclosed spaces were probably not taught any better when they were growing up.

When I see adults acting like jerks in public, I don't use them to justify my child's inappropriate behavior. I hold them up as an example to my kids of how NOT to behave.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm not saying that the poor behavior of adults justifies not teaching kids to be courteous. I'm just saying I get tired of the double standard. Seems like people are much more tolerant of adults behaving badly than childen behaving badly.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NicaG* 
I think there are plenty of people on trains who talk very loudly on their cell phones, and no one thinks twice about it. It's just a fact of life. When did the sounds of children become so unacceptable? I mean, I'm all for courtesy and manners....but why are these things just for children?

Lots of people think twice about it and are disturbed by it. That's why there are quiet cars.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
The other family encouraged the children to sing. Loudly. Often.

What you've described here would bother me. A lot.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

It would not bother me. Also, no offense, but I think that because it did bother I don't know whether or not how you are defining "loudly" would be the same as I would. Frankly, I would rather hear kids singing than crying!
I would rather hear kids singing than parents shushing or telling their kids to be quiet.
I commute on public transit and on commuter trains and singing kids would not bother me. Also, a family that was actively engaging their children in singing would certainly not bother me, because I would reason that those kids are not going to get upset or meltdown because they are bored.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

To me it would depend on the length of the trip

If it was just a quick ten minute train ride I doubt it would even phase me.

If it was a couple hours or something I would LLLOOSSEEE MMMYYYY MMMIIINNNNDDD

I don't see an issue with children singing if it wasn't super loud, but I also know some children have difficulties being quieter due to simply having loud voices. (I do







)

Of course, I would also think that if parents were obsessively encouraging a child to sing songs on a train they probably had a reason maybe if their kids get bored they run amok taking people's hats or something.

It wouldn't bother me. I would probably find it more annoying for the parent to be constantly, "SIT DOWN!!" "SSHH!!!" "Don't poke your sister!!" "Stop picking your nose!!" "Stop swinging your legs!" "SIT DOWN!!" "Don't pick the gum off the wall!" "SIT DOWN!!"


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nelson* 
I agree.

I can understand not encouraging loud voices, but when did everyone get so, "children should be seen and not heard?" I would think most people on a train would get over a two year old singing a little louder than what is considered socially acceptable and *probably even find it a tiny bit cute*.

First of all, no one said that "children should be seen and not heard". The vibe I'm getting from this thread is that most of us feel that it's important to teach our children about respecting others in public places. Seems like we've all encountered rude adults but that's not an excuse to allow our children to be rude.

Secondly, it seems like many responses on this thread are focusing on a child's behavior on public transportation. Let's remember that the OP was not talking about children who were overly loud, obnoxious, trying to be settled by mom and dad, stir-crazy, etc. The OP was commenting on parents encouraging their kids to "sing. Loudly. Often." This thread is really about the parent's behavior, not the kids.

And lastly, I'd like to comment on the bolded part in this quote. This attitude is very frusrtating. Not everything kids do is cute. I would never allow my children to act in a manner that might be infringing on someone else's space, or ears, because they might think it's cute. You might think your kid or maybe even someone else's kid's behavior is cute. For the most part, I don't. I didn't before I had kids and I don't really now (unless I know the child and know their personality). I'm just not a kid person, although I love mine to death and think they're the cutest things ever! I know several moms now who feel the same way. It has nothing to do with "seen and not heard" but rather showing everyone the same amount of respect, no matter what their age.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.









I'll take a happily singing child any day over a screaming, tantruming one. I encourage inside voices in restaurants and would in public transit too (we haven't taken him on yet)....but I would never frown upon another parent who encourages fun happy songs. I rode that transit daily to work and the gym for a year and by far there were worse things to listen to than happily singing kids.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nelson* 
I agree.

I can understand not encouraging loud voices, but when did everyone get so, "children should be seen and not heard?" I would think most people on a train would get over a two year old singing a little louder than what is considered socially acceptable and probably even find it a tiny bit cute.

No one's saying that the kids can't talk just like everyone else. I would object to singing, which is often much more annoying than talking, and it being loud. I would also be annoyed by loud talking or yelling.

I would not think it was in any way cute to be subjected to a small child singing on a train. It would drive me crazy, and I have a 3yo.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lonegirl* 







I'll take a happily singing child any day over a screaming, tantruming one. I encourage inside voices in restaurants and would in public transit too (we haven't taken him on yet)....but I would never frown upon another parent who encourages fun happy songs. I rode that transit daily to work and the gym for a year and by far there were worse things to listen to than happily singing kids.

I would rather be around kids who are being actually taught how to behave in public than around kids who are just being allowed to do whatever. Singing and crying are both annoying. I would have no way of knowing that a particular child had autism and that's why they were crying as opposed to any other child being told not to do something. It doesn't change what's OK and what's not OK to do in public. It's not OK to sing on a train.


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

as a preface, what i have to say excludes the obviously obnoxious examples we have all seen sometime or the other.

if a 3yr old behaved like an adult: knowing when to talk, how loud to talk, not to sing loudly (maybe no singing at all unless told to)...in perfect control of his/her emotions, never crying, perfectly perceptive- i am sure some scowling, unfriendly people would be perfectly happy!

what surprises me is that even some mothers/parents feel this way. their minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they hold their offspring and model of child-rearing to be representative for all kids. as cliched as it sounds, becoming a parent has shown me the real meaning of compassion, tolerance and patience. i won't lie, i am not immune to annoyance and irritation. but, beneath those emotions, i try to acknowledge that i do not know these people, how their day has been, what they are going thru.

all i can say is, put your headphones on! it's easier and better than stewing over such trivial things.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I agree it depends on the situation. I think quiet singing is alright most of the time. But screaming? Not so much. Overall, I teach my child to respect other people and his environment and to act accordingly.

Mostly I am not bothered by noise from people. But a normal level of noise. I am used to it and tune it out, and I have headphones if needed or I can switch cars. I don't mind is a child (or anyone) bursts into song. I often enjoy it. I don't think encouraging your child to be as energetic and loud as possible in this situation is not all that appropriate. And it's disrespectful to others around.

My biggest train irritation is people who shove on the train ahead of anyone and then just stop at the door and stand right there so people have to walk around. To me entering/exiting buses and trains has a logic and is so simple, and most people seem not to care.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 

When I see adults acting like jerks in public, I don't use them to justify my child's inappropriate behavior. I hold them up as an example to my kids of how NOT to behave.

This.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

For some reason the thread reminds me so much of part of the Joshua Bell/subway article, which eventually won the Pulitzer:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040401721.html

This is the part of it that sticks with me:
_There was no ethnic or demographic pattern to distinguish the people who stayed to watch Bell, or the ones who gave money, from that vast majority who hurried on past, unheeding. Whites, blacks and Asians, young and old, men and women, were represented in all three groups. But the behavior of one demographic remained absolutely consistent. *Every single time a child walked past, he or she tried to stop and watch. And every single time, a parent scooted the kid away*._

Which is not to say I want my child being loud on the train. I find there's usually enough noise that she and I can sort of whisper songs in each other's ears without anyone else hearing much of anything.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

We travel by train once or twice a year from Nova Scotia to Ontario, a total trip of 25 hours.

There is usually a "family car" or two and we are most often on that, so I guess it's a little different. On these trips, people are encouraged to socialize somewhat. Dd does great and usually makes at least one or two new friends we end up staying in touch with. Noise levels range from average to pretty high at times and there are always people who are not traveling with kids who are (potentially) unlucky enough to end up traveling with us.

In our case, we cannot keep dd entirely quiet for that long. However, one of the functions of the family car is so families can settle their KIDS down quietly; meaning, it's usually the adult cars that are the loudest, by far. It doesn't excuse extra-noisy behaviour by kids, I guess; but I do think people are vastly more intolerant of kid types of noise, which are different than adult types. One of the reasons I think kids do things like sing is because they can't read yet, or talk on cell phones or whatever. We pack an entire extra bag of quiet stuff for her to do and she's really well behaved, but still.

FTR, dd sings a lot. I don't stop her unless she's really loud. I don't "encourage" her to sing; but I don't discourage her, either. She got a ukelaile (sp?) from her uncle on our last trip. She played it and sang almost the entire trip home. Granted, the train was not crowded. She got applause and encouragement from other adults on the train. It was fun. We did not do this at night or when people were sleeping.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I certainly wouldn't mind if someone's children sang on the train. Happy kids never annoy me. Usually, the grumpiness of the grownup trying to shut them up is far more annoying than childhood/family joy.

Makes me think of the von Trapps in the Sound of Music.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Of course it's OK for kids to sing on a train but in the OP it sounds like it was too loud, went on maybe too long and was coupled with other loud behavior (running, shouting).

However I don't agree we need to be really quiet either. How loud would be acceptable depends on how loud the car is, but no, we don't have to tiptoe around other passengers or whisper because they might be tired. Part of riding public transport is putting up with other people. Everyone needs to try to not be obnoxious, but you can't get bothered by everything either (though I know there are people who do!).

eta: chfriend, ITA that the average person trying to quiet their child disturbs me way more than a kid who is making noise whether it's from singing or whining or crying or whatever.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrace* 
if a 3yr old behaved like an adult: knowing when to talk, how loud to talk, not to sing loudly (maybe no singing at all unless told to)...in perfect control of his/her emotions, never crying, perfectly perceptive- i am sure some scowling, unfriendly people would be perfectly happy!

what surprises me is that even some mothers/parents feel this way. their minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they hold their offspring and model of child-rearing to be representative for all kids. as cliched as it sounds, becoming a parent has shown me the real meaning of compassion, tolerance and patience. i won't lie, i am not immune to annoyance and irritation. but, beneath those emotions, i try to acknowledge that i do not know these people, how their day has been, what they are going thru.

all i can say is, put your headphones on! it's easier and better than stewing over such trivial things.

I don't really see how this relates to the OP. She said her friends were _encouraging_ their kids to sing loudly and often. Teaching your kids polite behavior does not equal expecting them to be little emotionless robots. Are we not supposed to even _mention_ to them that considering others' comfort in enclosed spaces is polite? I don't see how a parent who says, "Let's save the loud singing for when we get off the train -- some people are trying to study" is rigid and uncompromising.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

I think it's perfectly ok for kids to sing on the train, and I'll join in if I want too. But we don't sing loudly. We sing normally.
And it depends on circumstances, even I would get tired of 3 hours straight of singing, so I'd make sure we had some other stuff to do (games, books etc.) if it's a long train ride. But just a short one we could absolutely sing, but we probably would talk about what's going on outside etc. as well.

Loud singing is something completely different and as annoying as strangers screaming on cell phones.

Public transportation is for everyone, and that means putting up with strangers and their behaviours. But still behaving ok, not being obnoxious.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Lots of things people do in public annoy me-I'm human!!

That said I have a lot more patience for kids because they aren't born knowing how to behave in public. They need practice and repetition in actual real life situations to learn what is ok and what is not. K

In the OPs' shoes what her friend was doing would drive me bonkers and I don't think I could travel with her again. I do not like people who practice annoying attention driven behavior and encourage their kids to do the same.


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## Artichokie (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
We took the train (commuter rail) into the city the other day with another family. Each family has a 5yo and a 2yo.

I learned that we have different approaches when it comes to public transport!

I treat the train like I do a restaurant, I expect my kids to use indoor voices. Squealing and shouting is not allowed.

*The other family encouraged the children to sing. Loudly. Often.
*
I felt like a harridan in comparison, constantly shushing my kids when they made noises that were loud enough to be heard from a few seats away. I'm not going to change my take on this







, but I wondered what the general consensus here was.

bolding mine.

I think that it is one thing to permit a small child to sing to herself while in a place of public accommodation, but it is quite another encourage a child to be outwardly loud in such a place. In one case, you are letting a happy child do her thing, and in the other you are teaching poor manners and behavior.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) *than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.*

You've got to be kidding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrace* 
as a preface, what i have to say excludes the obviously obnoxious examples we have all seen sometime or the other.

if a 3yr old behaved like an adult: knowing when to talk, how loud to talk, not to sing loudly (maybe no singing at all unless told to)...in perfect control of his/her emotions, never crying, perfectly perceptive- i am sure some scowling, unfriendly people would be perfectly happy!

what surprises me is that even some mothers/parents feel this way. their minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they hold their offspring and model of child-rearing to be representative for all kids. as cliched as it sounds, becoming a parent has shown me the real meaning of compassion, tolerance and patience. i won't lie, i am not immune to annoyance and irritation. but, beneath those emotions, i try to acknowledge that i do not know these people, how their day has been, what they are going through.

all i can say is, put your headphones on! it's easier and better than stewing over such trivial things.

What surprises me is that some people's minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they insist that their way of experiencing and interacting with the rest of the world is the only right way. That if they think it's fine for a parent to _encourage_ their children to sing loudly in a crowded, enclosed space, then that should be OK with everyone else.

Becoming an adult has shown me the real meaning of compassion and tolerance for complete strangers on a train for who may not at all consider trivial the same things I do.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.
You've got to be kidding.

No. I'm not kidding.

Especially when I'm traveling with my own kids, I'd rather at least see parents attempting to help their children behave than not. It's much easier for my child to behave when she sees that other parents have the same or similar expectations as we do . And on a train, that would include not singing or making loud noises.


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

Maybe the rude adults who talk loudly on their cell phones on trains are the grown product of children of parents who encouraged loud and frequent singing on trains









Both are rude. Public space is just that: public. Which means that it should be equally welcoming and respected by all. My role as Mother is to teach my kids appropriate behavior, which obviously is variable depending on where we are. In tight quarters on a train I have enough respect for those around me to not presume that the loud and frequent singing of my children is a noise that they should have to find cute.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

After reading this thread, something occurred to me: how often does OP's friends ride the commuter train? I find that people tend to behave "badly" (as it has been coined above) in situations in which they are not familiar with the custom or etiquette. Case in point: every single weekday I have the distinct pleasure of being surrounded by tourists as I'm making my way to work on the subway and the street. Some tourists are from overseas but a large majority are Americans from outside of New York. There are certain things you do and don't do on public transportation. There are certain rules of etiquette that are learned over time and taken for granted. I can usually spot out-of-towners by the volume of their voices and the fact that they are drawing an incredible amount of attention to themselves via their movements and general lack of consideration for the "rules."

When I moved to NY many years ago, I'm sure that I was one of those clueless people with no grasp of local custom or consideration, especially on public transportation. After time, I got with the program and learned what was appropriate and what was not. Out-of-towners tend to draw attention to themselves in the most innocent and irritating ways. Are they horrible people? No. Are they clueless? Yes. I try to give them a wider margin of error given the fact that local rules of etiquette may not be familiar to them. Amongst ourselves? No margins of error for people who live here and commute regularly. And, we're not shy about expressing our displeasure!

I wouldn't tell DD that her behavior (such as singing) is "bad." I would tell her that singing in a certain way in this environment is not appropriate for reasons "x, y and z" and then redirect. Inherently "bad" behavior and inappropriate behavior given the time and circumstances are two very different things.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

I don't have a problem with singing on a train. *I* do it too... if I am in a good mood, or just feeling happy, or listening to my ipod I may just break into song spontaneously.

I guess my answer would depend on how "loudly" they were being. Did you notice other people on the train? Were they obviously bothered by the kids? Was anyone smiling -- did anyone like the singing?

If we weren't bothering anyone, then I wouldn't care. But obviously that wasn't the case, since YOU were bothered by it. Did you mention this to the other parents? If you were bothered by it, why not speak up and ask them to try to keep a quieter voice, that you enjoyed a peaceful train ride?

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I mean, on one hand, kids should learn respect for EVERYONE. I am in total agreement there. However, on the other hand, there are some people in this world who, no matter how "respectful" the child is being, will still believe that a child needs to be "seen, and not heard". I do not subscribe to that philosophy, and I cannot support any discipline against a child that stems from that philosophy. It really is a very fine line, and I'm not exactly sure where to draw it, or how.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
When I see adults acting like jerks in public, I don't use them to justify my child's inappropriate behavior. I hold them up as an example to my kids of how NOT to behave.

This.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
Maybe the rude adults who talk loudly on their cell phones on trains are the grown product of children of parents who encouraged loud and frequent singing on trains









And this.

There is nothing more irritating to the general product, than parents who don't teach their children behavior appropriate to the situation. And likely, those children are the ones who grow up socially inept, rude, and without a concept of basic courtesy.

No one is saying that kids should be little robots. But there is a time for singing and being loud, and a time for using "indoor voice."

Some of the things in this thread remind me of how some families would act back when I was waiting tables. These parents would chuckle indulgently as their kids TRASHED the tables, throwing food and sweet-n-lows on the floor, dumping out condiments all over the place, etc. I mean, maybe they thought it was easier just to let "the help" clean up their child's mess, than have to deal with their child throwing a fit over not being allowed to run amok. But it was rude as hell, discourteous, and flat-out bad parenting.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.

i would aways prefer to see a child run around, yell, shout sing- whatever- than to see the child scream and tantrum. _always_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
To me it would depend on the length of the trip

If it was just a quick ten minute train ride I doubt it would even phase me.

If it was a couple hours or something I would LLLOOSSEEE MMMYYYY MMMIIINNNNDDD

I don't see an issue with children singing if it wasn't super loud, but I also know some children have difficulties being quieter due to simply having loud voices. (I do







)

Of course, I would also think that if parents were obsessively encouraging a child to sing songs on a train they probably had a reason maybe if their kids get bored they run amok taking people's hats or something.

It wouldn't bother me. I would probably find it more annoying for the parent to be constantly, "SIT DOWN!!" "SSHH!!!" "Don't poke your sister!!" "Stop picking your nose!!" "Stop swinging your legs!" "SIT DOWN!!" "Don't pick the gum off the wall!" "SIT DOWN!!"

totally agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
No. I'm not kidding.

Especially when I'm traveling with my own kids, I'd rather at least see parents attempting to help their children behave than not. It's much easier for my child to behave when she sees that other parents have the same or similar expectations as we do . And on a train, that would include not singing or making loud noises.

but different parents have waaay different ideas on what is "behaving".... and why should someone change their ways to make it easier on your child?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
This.

There is nothing more irritating to the general product, than parents who don't teach their children behavior appropriate to the situation. And likely, those children are the ones who grow up socially inept, rude, and without a concept of basic courtesy.

No one is saying that kids should be little robots. But there is a time for singing and being loud, and a time for using "indoor voice."

Some of the things in this thread remind me of how some families would act back when I was waiting tables. These parents would chuckle indulgently as their kids TRASHED the tables, throwing food and sweet-n-lows on the floor, dumping out condiments all over the place, etc. I mean, maybe they thought it was easier just to let "the help" clean up their child's mess, than have to deal with their child throwing a fit over not being allowed to run amok. But it was rude as hell, discourteous, and flat-out bad parenting.

lol. we were the picture of etiquette growing up.... my mother was firm and kept us controlled in public. all of us kids are loud and waaay more likely to let our kids sing on trains and trash restaurant tables. life is too precious and too short to freak out over offending a businessman or woman, annoying a stranger, some rice on the floor, or ruined sugar packets.

i dont necessarily encourage it.. but if playing with sugar packets lets me finish my 30 dollar meal without screaming... so be it.

people in social situations should know how to function in SOCIAL situations. the fact that people expect others to keep quiet so they can read or work in public is rude imho.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
After reading this thread, something occurred to me: how often does OP's friends ride the commuter train? I find that people tend to behave "badly" (as it has been coined above) in situations in which they are not familiar with the custom or etiquette. Case in point: every single weekday I have the distinct pleasure of being surrounded by tourists as I'm making my way to work on the subway and the street. Some tourists are from overseas but a large majority are Americans from outside of New York. There are certain things you do and don't do on public transportation. There are certain rules of etiquette that are learned over time and taken for granted. I can usually spot out-of-towners by the volume of their voices and the fact that they are drawing an incredible amount of attention to themselves via their movements and general lack of consideration for the "rules."

That occurred to me as well. It sounds like maybe these parents use the singing loudly strategy to keep the kids happy on long car journeys and didn't think it through that it was totally inappropriate for a commuter train.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
life is too precious and too short to freak out over offending a businessman or woman, annoying a stranger, some rice on the floor, or ruined sugar packets.

i dont necessarily encourage it.. but if playing with sugar packets lets me finish my 30 dollar meal without screaming... so be it.

*shrug* As long as you realize that such an action/attitude is rude and inconsiderate of others. Then again, I'm of the opinion that "employees" are also humans, and deserve to be treated as such.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Loud singing? Not okay IMO. If this were a LONG train ride and there was a family/play area, totally different situation. Commuter vehicles I would try to keep to normal conversation levels. Of course, that means if you are surrounded by people talking loudly, joking, whatever, the kids can also amp the volume up a bit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Down2Earth* 
I'm imagining this when I think of a bunch of children singing on a train. Or maybe this while I wait for my train.

Whew! That was a lot of solfège!









Now, *that* I would enjoy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NicaG* 
I'm not saying that the poor behavior of adults justifies not teaching kids to be courteous. I'm just saying I get tired of the double standard. Seems like people are much more tolerant of adults behaving badly than childen behaving badly.

This is so true. A couple of months ago we were at a fast food place with my inlaws. It was fairly uncrowded (only us to start, then another family--- dad & two kids, then an adult couple). The kids had finished their meals and the adults were still chatting. There were some other places to sit (some of those high stools facing out & a couple small picnic tables for kids to color at). DS (8) was WALKING between our table and the stools. Several times. No more than 10 (I would actually guess in the 3-4 range) and this woman GRABBED him and told him he did not have the right to ruin her meal by walking past her table over and over







He was not being loud (definately an indoor voice, not whispering, but I am fairly noise sensative and it wasn't bothering me. I am also one of those parents who would shush my child from singing on a train







). Anyway, DP was immeidately in her face which got her parther in his face and blah blah blah.

Point being? Would they have even considered treating an adult in the same way? Saying they did not have the right, in a fast food restaurant, to walk past their table (not touching it or them, remember) more than "X" number of times? And I've seen stuff like this before (glaring and shushing a child who is talking in a normal, not hushed voice in a restaurant while meanwhile ignoring a group of 6 drinking men who are making *way* more noise for example).


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

all of us kids are loud and waaay more likely to let our kids sing on trains and trash restaurant tables. life is too precious and too short to freak out over offending a businessman or woman, annoying a stranger, some rice on the floor, or ruined sugar packets.
Oh dear. If this is how you allow your children to act in a restaurant the businessman, stranger, and server all have the right to be offended. And I hope you tip extra too for ruining food you aren't using and the extra work for the server you are creating.

"Life is too short" is not a valid argument for bad parenting. Nor is it a justification to overlook bad behavior because it is easier on the parent.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
*shrug* As long as you realize that such an action/attitude is rude and inconsiderate of others. Then again, I'm of the opinion that "employees" are also humans, and deserve to be treated as such.

as an employee that used to frequently clean up after messy kids, yes... i understand employees are human.







it was also part of my job, that i chose knowingly....and shockingly would still rather get on my knees of a dirty floor for 5 seconds than hear children scream or be treated as second class.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Oh dear. If this is how you allow your children to act in a restaurant the businessman, stranger, and server all have the right to be offended. And I hope you tip extra too for ruining food you aren't using and the extra work for the server you are creating.

"Life is too short" is not a valid argument for bad parenting. Nor is it a justification to overlook bad behavior because it is easier on the parent.

actually we tip well AND clean up the mess. but no one knows we are going to and the looks we get are laughable.

bad parenting and "bad behaviour" are subjective, and i would much rather enjoy my life and teach my children how to live and laugh and be happy in a social, public setting, than to teach them to hush and sit quiet as to not offend someone who chose not to finish their work in a private setting.

its not about being easier, its about living a full life. anyone offended by children singing [gasp] loudly [gasp] in PUBLIC [the horror] is not living any kind of life i want for myself OR my kids.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

actually we tip well AND clean up the mess. but no one knows we are going to and the looks we get are laughable
Good for you-that is more then most seem to do.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that children be seen and not heard. The OP's original point was very valid-deliberately egging your children on to behave in a loud obnoxious way is not necessary and is in fact rude.

My son wants to live life to the fullest by hiding in the library stacks and shrieking in laughter when I find him. Not cool at all and I have had to leave the last two times before I could find a book because of it. Kids need to learn that there is indeed a time and a place for everything.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i think library's have rules about noise- at least ours do.... and we always follow posted rules and maintain a respect for the things of others.

but on a train or restaurant? havent we all been on a train with a group of people laughing really loudly or getting really into a story being told? i wouldnt let that offend me either- people enjoying life... laughing. I cannot even count how many times I have been at a restaurant with girlfriends or a group of adults where we were drinking and laughing and being loud or spilling drinks and been treated WONDERFULLY By our wait staff... because their tip would be huge since our bill was increasing with our noise level. no one was commenting on our rude waste of alcohol...

people make exceptions for adults all the time in the name of fun or a good time... yet when children are encouraged to act out in joy- people are up in arms and talking about lazy parents and bad behaviour and such.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
as an employee that used to frequently clean up after messy kids, yes... i understand employees are human.







it was also part of my job, that i chose knowingly....and shockingly would still rather get on my knees of a dirty floor for 5 seconds than hear children scream or be treated as second class.


I don't understand how having manners is being "treated as second class." Is it that "first class" people act rudely and without consideration?

Because really, children aren't responsible for how they act. They're children. Their parents are responsible for how they act. And while it may be "fun" or "living a full and exciting life" to be rude and inconsiderate, I really wouldn't brag about it.

And really, I'd rather my child be upset for fifteen minutes, than grow up to have no manners, and be a boor in society for the rest of their life.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i wouldnt jump on a commuter train full to the brim of serious people and sing danny boy at full tilt... but i really wonder exactly what loud was and exactly how obnoxious this OP situation was.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
all of us kids are loud and waaay more likely to let our kids sing on trains and trash restaurant tables. life is too precious and too short to freak out over offending a businessman or woman, annoying a stranger, some *rice on the floor*, or *ruined sugar packets*.

i dont necessarily encourage it.. but if playing with sugar packets lets me finish my 30 dollar meal without screaming... so be it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Oh dear. If this is how you allow your children to act in a restaurant the businessman, stranger, and server all have the right to be offended. And I hope you tip extra too for ruining food you aren't using and the extra work for the server you are creating.

This response ("ruining food you aren't using and the extra work for the server you are creating") is an example of the anti-child bias I was talking about before. If there was an adult at a table of adults who had finished their meal and decided to build a structure of sugar packets while chatting would you say the same thing (that he needed to tip extra for *ruining food*)? What if an adult simply used, say, 6 sugar packets per cup of coffee. Would you expect them to pay extra for wasting that food?

Maybe the OP & I are talking about totally different things, but I have often let my children "play" with the condiments while they waited. You can make "card" houses using sugar & sweetner packets. They have a good time and I have never considered it wasting (would you really throw them away because someone had touched the outside) or rude. Am I just misinterpreting the actions of the OPs child, or am I in the dark on this?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
but on a train or restaurant? havent we all been on a train with a group of people laughing really loudly or getting really into a story being told? i wouldnt let that offend me either- people enjoying life... laughing. I cannot even count how many times I have been at a restaurant with girlfriends or a group of adults where we were drinking and laughing and being loud or spilling drinks and been treated WONDERFULLY By our wait staff... because their tip would be huge since our bill was increasing with our noise level. no one was commenting on our rude waste of alcohol...

people make exceptions for adults all the time in the name of fun or a good time... yet when children are encouraged to act out in joy- people are up in arms and talking about lazy parents and bad behaviour and such.









Honestly, to me, the adults are being much ruder than the children in the same situation. The adults should be able to understand what a socially acceptable amount of noise is, while even with attentive parents many children have a very hard time understanding the difference between *their* indoor voice and an okay indoor voice









Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
i wouldnt jump on a commuter train full to the brim of serious people and sing danny boy at full tilt... but i really wonder exactly what loud was and exactly how obnoxious this OP situation was.

If you did, though, you'd probably get equal amounts of laughs to glares. Wonder what a kids ratio would be?


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
If there was an adult at a table of adults who had finished their meal and decided to build a structure of sugar packets while chatting would you say the same thing (that he needed to tip extra for *ruining food*)?

Not unless he threw them on the floor, stomped on them so that no one else who sat at the table later could use them, and/or just started opening them and pouring them on the table, all of which I've seen parents allow their children to do.

I think the double-standard goes the other way-- behavior that would definitely be considered rude from adults, is excused for children (to use an example, if a bunch of drunk adults were singing loudly and carrying on, on the train, people would think "man, look at those drunken idiots"). Which, of course children aren't going to be as mannered as adults, they are kids. But it's still a responsibility of a parent to show some kind of awareness as to what is or is not appropriate, and try to teach their children.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
I don't understand how having manners is being "treated as second class." Is it that "first class" people act rudely and without consideration?

Because really, children aren't responsible for how they act. They're children. Their parents are responsible for how they act. And while it may be "fun" or "living a full and exciting life" to be rude and inconsiderate, I really wouldn't brag about it.

And really, I'd rather my child be upset for fifteen minutes, than grow up to have no manners, and be a boor in society for the rest of their life.

see, i think it is rude and inconsiderate and treating your kids like second class citizens to ignore their developmental ability to understand and control their impulses to fit your needs.

i think its unfair to expect a 3 year old to sit for an hour and be quiet... so if all else fails and they reject the coloring books, beading activity and magnetic puzzle i have for them and want to instead play with 3 sugar packats a sing a song- i think that it is horribly rude to let them scream and cry when realistically they probably dont even get why they cannot do what they want to do.

its funny, almost everytime we are out in public, we have a nice elderly couple comment on our "well behaved children" and how "rare that is these days" and we laugh... because when our 4 year old was 2- she was a sugar packet ruining, running circles around our table, messy messy mess of a kid. Now she is please and thank you and makes zero mess.... because we are that way... and she eventually caught on. When an old lady eyes a mom doing the "sit down, sit still shhhhhhhhh" and comments on MY kid? i may brag... because for us, its working. So far we havent raised a boor in society.

it is not like we are walking around oblivious to our surroundings.... these kids were on a loud train, not in a quiet van with 5 other people.

i just trust that i dont have to drill the joy out of a child... they will watch and learn appropriately....

like my example of a group of adults acting loudly in a restaurant.... im sure those people dont show up drunk to work and yell and laugh loudly....

if this was a group of 20 somethings on the day of a big game singing a fight song loudly people would roll their eyes and possibly be irritated. no one would really be here discussing the poor outlook on the future as functioning citizens or the complete inappropriateness of their actions.

nak


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 

If you did, though, you'd probably get equal amounts of laughs to glares. Wonder what a kids ratio would be?

exactly, huh?

i bet depending on the day i may even get a round of applause-


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

I guess I just see a world of difference between "drilling the joy out of a child" and helping a child understand socially appropriate behavior. I see the former as something that I will pointedly NEVER do, and the latter as something that I am charged with and enjoy, as a parent to my children.

I'm grateful, personally, that both my husband and I are able to recognize the difference, and parent accordingly. "Drilling the joy" out of a child surely sounds like something horrible, and I am so grateful that I am able to parent without resorting to such harsh extremes!


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
I guess I just see a world of difference between "drilling the joy out of a child" and helping a child understand socially appropriate behavior. I see the former as something that I will pointedly NEVER do, and the latter as something that I am charged with and enjoy, as a parent to my children.

I'm grateful, personally, that both my husband and I are able to recognize the difference, and parent accordingly. "Drilling the joy" out of a child surely sounds like something horrible, and I am so grateful that I am able to parent without resorting to such harsh extremes!

i was going for a dramatic and sarcastic point.... im glad you and your husband are able to recognize the difference.

i was commenting on how i would most definitely let three sugar packets fall victim before i let a child scream for 10 minutes or repeatedly and harshly "yell/whispered" at them throughout dinner.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
Not unless he threw them on the floor, stomped on them so that no one else who sat at the table later could use them, and/or just started opening them and pouring them on the table, all of which I've seen parents allow their children to do.

My sister and BIL were kicked out of a restaurant once because they thought it was a "brilliant" idea to unscrew the top of the salt and pour a bunch out onto the table for their 2yo son to drive his mini construction machines through.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
see, i think it is rude and inconsiderate and treating your kids like second class citizens to ignore their developmental ability to understand and control their impulses to fit your needs.

i think its unfair to expect a 3 year old to sit for an hour and be quiet... so if all else fails and they reject the coloring books, beading activity and magnetic puzzle i have for them and want to instead play with 3 sugar packats a sing a song- i think that it is horribly rude to let them scream and cry when realistically they probably dont even get why they cannot do what they want to do.

No one is suggesting that people expect a 3yo to sit still for an hour.

It's called "interacting" with your child. It's not all that difficult. I have kept my just 3yo "quiet" many times while waiting at the doctor's or taking the bus or a variety of other things for 1+ hours. DH and I take her out for supper all the time. It is VERY rare that we have to take her out. She knows what's expected in terms of behavior. She knows to try to use her quiet voice, she knows to try to sit still. And she also knows that if she doesn't do those things, we will remind her.

I think you are underestimating what children are capable of. A 2yo or 3yo may not be "perfect" in their behavior. But they are certainly capable of starting to learn.


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
i was going for a dramatic and sarcastic point.... im glad you and your husband are able to recognize the difference.

i was commenting on how i would most definitely let three sugar packets fall victim before i let a child scream for 10 minutes or repeatedly and harshly "yell/whispered" at them throughout dinner.

Thanks, we are glad also









Dramatic sarcastic points are great......my not dramatic not sarcastic point was simply that there is a whole world of GREAT parenting between the extreme examples you are drawing. To parent in a positive way is not drilling the joy out of a child. It's simply not that black and white. To expect and aide good, socially responsible behavior in your children is simply not the same as buying into the "seen and not heard" philosophy.

These seem to be the two options according to you ~

Quote:

i would aways prefer to see a child run around, yell, shout sing- whatever- than to see the child scream and tantrum. always
I personally find that there are a lot more options out there, is all.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 

I personally find that there are a lot more options out there, is all.

for. sure.
i was speaking more to this quote

Quote:

that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.
tantrum v. signing.....


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
My son has autism and has a hard time understanding and controlling the volume of his voice. If he decided to sing on a train I'd probably let him. It's much better for people to hear rather than him tantruming because he can't deal with the sensory issues that come along with train riding.

I'm sure many people think we're rude and terrible parents when we're out in public.

AMEN to this! I also have a child with autism and we're going to do what we have to do to avoid a major meltdown. Sometimes that means distracting him with singing or tickling or other silliness. My children are not miniature adults. Their minds are not mature and they do not have many years of experience. They behave like children. I'm not going to expect them to behave like adults. I can encourage them to bring their voices to a lower level, to try to stay on - or at least near- their seats, and to keep their hands and belongings to themselves. If they don't oblige, I'm not going to sit on them or duct tape their mouths shut.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
It would not bother me. Also, no offense, but I think that because it did bother I don't know whether or not how you are defining "loudly" would be the same as I would. Frankly, I would rather hear kids singing than crying!
I would rather hear kids singing than parents shushing or telling their kids to be quiet.
I commute on public transit and on commuter trains and singing kids would not bother me. Also, a family that was actively engaging their children in singing would certainly not bother me, because I would reason that those kids are not going to get upset or meltdown because they are bored.

Absolutely!!!
I love to hear children singing, loudly or quietly. I love to hear them reading books out loud. I love to hear about how excited they are to have done something, or to be going to do something. I love to hear them brag about their accomplishments. I love it, and it doesn't bother me when they're being loud or boisterous or whatever. They're kids! They're supposed to be noisy! They're supposed to be energetic! I hate living in this society where kids are expected to act like dull adults. I can't tell you how many times hearing a loud, exuberant child has brightened my day and put a smile on my face. Many many many.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrace* 
what surprises me is that even some mothers/parents feel this way. their minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they hold their offspring and model of child-rearing to be representative for all kids. as cliched as it sounds, becoming a parent has shown me the real meaning of compassion, tolerance and patience. i won't lie, i am not immune to annoyance and irritation. but, beneath those emotions, i try to acknowledge that i do not know these people, how their day has been, what they are going thru.

all i can say is, put your headphones on! it's easier and better than stewing over such trivial things.

YES! YES! YES!
I hate that parents can be so incredibly harsh and judgmental. One of the biggest things I've learned as a parent is that my who my children are or how they behave have very little to do with my parenting methods. It's genetic, baby! My older son was energetic and loud from the start. My younger son was much more quiet and calm. This isn't just from infancy - this is from when they were in the womb! Your kid doesn't sit still and quietly because you're the world's best mommy - she does that because it's who she is. Stop patting yourself on the back and staring at the rest of us like we're horrible examples or something. Try compassion. Try understanding. Those of us with challenging kids get more than enough glares and negative comments throughout our days. Try smiling instead, and maybe act like you're a part of a supportive community. We can't make such a community exist by hating noisy children and their parents. We can create such a community by being tolerant, and by singing along.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

Not unless he threw them on the floor, stomped on them so that no one else who sat at the table later could use them, and/or just started opening them and pouring them on the table, all of which I've seen parents allow their children to do.
Exactly!! I am not talking about playing with the packets or rearranging the sugar packets in the dish. As a server I have seen parents allow their children to open up the parm cheese and pepper flakes containers and pour them on the table. Or let them dump the salt and pepper all over the floor. Or throw ice cubes at one another. All in the name of keeping them occupied so they could finish dinner.

That kind of attitude is what I was objecting too.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It's called "interacting" with your child. It's not all that difficult. I have kept my just 3yo "quiet" many times while waiting at the doctor's or taking the bus or a variety of other things for 1+ hours. DH and I take her out for supper all the time. It is VERY rare that we have to take her out. She knows what's expected in terms of behavior. She knows to try to use her quiet voice, she knows to try to sit still. And she also knows that if she doesn't do those things, we will remind her.

I think you are taking your individual child, and expecting every other child to be a carbon copy. My kids are nothing like your kid. My kids respond in their ways. What works for your child won't work for mine. Maybe, one day, you'll have a difficult child and realize that it wasn't your parenting that caused your child to behave, but that your child simply made parenting easy for you. You wouldn't be the first at MDC to have such an epiphany.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have such mixed feelings reading this thread. I totally see both sides.

But in short: I have been annoyed by kids being loud and wild in public....and then other days I have smiled to see them being kids--being LIFE--and let it go. I like the part of me better that smiles. That's my better half.

(I'm not talking about kids who are being dangerous or destructive or intentionally obnoxious...just regular noisy kids with energy. You know...kids.)


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 

YES! YES! YES!
I hate that parents can be so incredibly harsh and judgmental. One of the biggest things I've learned as a parent is that my who my children are or how they behave have very little to do with my parenting methods. It's genetic, baby! My older son was energetic and loud from the start. My younger son was much more quiet and calm. This isn't just from infancy - this is from when they were in the womb! Your kid doesn't sit still and quietly because you're the world's best mommy - she does that because it's who she is. Stop patting yourself on the back and staring at the rest of us like we're horrible examples or something. Try compassion. Try understanding. Those of us with challenging kids get more than enough glares and negative comments throughout our days. Try smiling instead, and maybe act like you're a part of a supportive community. We can't make such a community exist by hating noisy children and their parents. We can create such a community by being tolerant, and by singing along.

I think that there is a big difference in what you are reading and what people are saying.

No one here is saying that they "hate" children who are noisy, or the parents of such children.

The only divide I see is between those who say that they try to encourage appropriate behavior, and those who seem to feel as though doing so is killing a child's spirit. We are all mothers, I'm quite sure that we ALL have or have had those moments where our children are difficult. The OP Was about ENCOURAGING loudly inappropriate behavior, not about what perfect parents anyone is. Some feel that encouraging good behavior is simply a better option ~ some seem to rely a lot more on the "kids will be kids regardless" sort of idea. Neither one is necessarily all right or all wrong, to me anyway.

From the tone of your post I gather that you have had some very trying times with your kids, and I am sorry that you feel so defensive about it. I don't really think that anyone here was trying to pat themselves on the back ~ it is natural that we all have different feelings regarding how children should behave in certain scenarios (restaurants, trains, other peoples homes etc) ~ just because someone has different goals or methods or kids or hopes from you does not necessarily mean that they are judging you, you know?


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I don't really see how this relates to the OP. She said her friends were _encouraging_ their kids to sing loudly and often. Teaching your kids polite behavior does not equal expecting them to be little emotionless robots. Are we not supposed to even _mention_ to them that considering others' comfort in enclosed spaces is polite? I don't see how a parent who says, "Let's save the loud singing for when we get off the train -- some people are trying to study" is rigid and uncompromising.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
You've got to be kidding.
What surprises me is that some people's minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they insist that their way of experiencing and interacting with the rest of the world is the only right way. That if they think it's fine for a parent to _encourage_ their children to sing loudly in a crowded, enclosed space, then that should be OK with everyone else.

Becoming an adult has shown me the real meaning of compassion and tolerance for complete strangers on a train for who may not at all consider trivial the same things I do.

in order to save folks the time and effort of posting a response and to avoid misinterpretations, i started my previous post thus:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrace* 
as a preface, what i have to say excludes the obviously obnoxious examples we have all seen sometime or the other.

HTH.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
I think that there is a big difference in what you are reading and what people are saying.

No one here is saying that they "hate" children who are noisy, or the parents of such children.

The only divide I see is between those who say that they try to encourage appropriate behavior, and those who seem to feel as though doing so is killing a child's spirit.

I think there's a big difference in what you're reading and what people are saying. I don't see the divide that you see. We're looking at this discussion from different perspectives, and thus see different things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
We are all mothers, I'm quite sure that we ALL have or have had those moments where our children are difficult.

Some of us have difficult or challenging children.
Some of us have children who are going through difficult/ challenging periods.
Some of us have children who are occasionally difficult.

My children are in the first two categories. I currently have two children who are occasionally easy. They're mostly difficult. One of my children is challenging because of his personality and/or as a symptom of his diagnoses. So, again, I'm coming from a different perspective than, possibly, the majority of people on this thread. Oh, and my son with autism? He doesn't have a label flashing on his forehead, so most people assume that he's an ill-mannered brat and that I'm to blame for that. Try living with that kind of near-constant judgment for years. And then try getting much of that judgment from other parents who look smug about their own children not acting in such a manner. And try dealing with their comments. Then try doing it before you get a clear diagnosis. And maybe you'll understand why I will always be quick to defend the child and the parents. I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
The OP Was about ENCOURAGING loudly inappropriate behavior, not about what perfect parents anyone is. Some feel that encouraging good behavior is simply a better option ~ some seem to rely a lot more on the "kids will be kids regardless" sort of idea. Neither one is necessarily all right or all wrong, to me anyway.

First, I don't agree that singing loudly on a train, or encouraging loud singing on a train, is inappropriate. I think that singing on a train is perfectly acceptable behavior. I don't have any problem with it. I especially don't have a problem with it when children are doing the singing. When adults are doing the singing, I might get annoyed if they're off-key or screw up the lyrics, or are belting out lyrics that I find offensive. Otherwise, why should I care? I hope they're singing because they're happy. I'm sorry if they're singing due to sadness or anger, but singing out those emotions is much healthier than a number of other ways that members of our repressed society deal with them.

Also, I don't think that there's a difference between encouraging good behavior and allowing kids to be kids. You can do both. I do both, day after day after day. I have a problem with adults trying to force children to act like adults. I don't think that those expectations are developmentally appropriate, even if there are some children who meet them (IMO, as a matter of personality).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
From the tone of your post I gather that you have had some very trying times with your kids, and I am sorry that you feel so defensive about it.

I have had trying times that you can only imagine. Additionally, I was reading in Brain,Child this morning about families getting kicked off of planes and such because the kids were being... kids. And I was reading a few days ago about the school-to-prison pipeline. There are major problems in our society about the ways we treat children, and the expectations we have of them. We have the science to show the differences in children's brains and adult's brains. We know that kids are not capable of the same things that adults are - whether we're talking about behaviors or understanding consequences or considering the needs of others. As parents, we teach. But, we shouldn't try to force them to be something they're not. And, as a society, we should be much more tolerant and understanding of kids being kids - in fact, we should welcome it. We determine what's acceptable in society, and we can change our minds about that at any time. I consider the United States to be a very anti-child place to live. I am determined to change that. So, yes, I will be defensive. I will defend children. They deserve it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
I don't really think that anyone here was trying to pat themselves on the back ~ it is natural that we all have different feelings regarding how children should behave in certain scenarios (restaurants, trains, other peoples homes etc) ~ just because someone has different goals or methods or kids or hopes from you does not necessarily mean that they are judging you, you know?

Often times it does. Very, very often. There are multiple threads on this forum every week about how some child or some parent was acting in some unspeakably horrible manner. Judgment judgment judgment. I'm not saying that I haven't fallen into the same trap. I am saying that I try not to fall again. There are better ways than judging others as being inferior parents or ill-behaved kids. I'd like to see more support, tolerance, patience, understanding, and compassion. I'm not about to expect mature behavior from my children when I can't find it in most adults.


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

I agree with lotusdebi. My son is also on the spectrum and it is torture, torture to take him out in public. (Not to mention his sister is now in her terrible two's and copies his demeanor as well in everything.) I *am* the mother who is constantly "shh"-ing and "please just sit DOWN and please just sit STILL" - and I've become a near recluse because of the incredible amount of judgment I get, constantly. I try to grow a thick skin but it's hard to enjoy things when you have the choice of staying at home or enduring stares and comments the whole time you're out. A simple chore like a trip to the post office is near torture. I refuse to get on a plane with my kids. We did once out of necessity and my son literally screamed the entire flight - bloody-murder, high pitched screaming for hours. Nothing we could do to stop it. NOTHING. Oh, the glares we got.

My mom used to take pride that I was so well behaved that she could take me anywhere, people would compliment how well mannered I was, etc. She positively gloated about how good of a mother she was and how bad of a mother everyone else was who had a child who wasn't like me. Then I had my son and she had a near breakdown when she realized, oh, it's up to personality, really! It's up to the kid! Parents can and do need to influence their children, and everyone needs to learn manners, of course. But the child's personality will be a huge influence. Huge.

Also, for the PP who said that she'd rather see a parent disciplining a fussy child rather than to let the child "behave badly" - may you never find out what it's like to have a child on the spectrum. Seriously. A tantrum for a normal kid is one thing, a complete meltdown of an autistic child is a completely different thing. Obviously you have not experienced that. And as far as a child behaving "badly" - good God, that's the sort of judgment I get every day I try to leave my house. I like those shirts and stickers they sell that say, in big letters, "I'm Autistic, please be patient with me" or "I'm not a brat, just autistic" or whatever.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Kaleanani
My younger son (almost 3) is also copying his older brother's behaviors, attitudes, tantrums, etc. So frustrating! I also decided against ever flying with my kids - especially after reading so many reports of kids with autism being kicked off.








I'm sorry for what you go through, and I feel your frustration and pain.


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## Stephenie (Oct 11, 2007)

My son has Sensory Processing Disorder and taking him on a train would be hell. If singing would keep him from completely losing it, by God I would sing. And if people knew the alternative for him, I think they would (should) appreciate it. He both seeks and fears sensory input, ,so one day the train may just scare him so badly that he screams the whole time, while the next day I would not be able to keep him from running around, crashing into things. Couple that with the fact that I would also have a nine month old with me and chasing him would be hard... singing is the least he could be doing. Like an Autistic child, he looks "normal." No one can tell by looking at him that his brain works differently than most. And even talking to him, once again, he sounds "normal"... he even talks better than most kids his age. I get a lot of dirty looks and I get really darn sick of it. It's hard and I am doing my best. That is what I try to assume with other parents. Even when kids are not special needs, they all have their days... and so do parents.

So while I personally try to avoid places like the train when I can, if I had to be there and it kept him still or from having a meltdown that increased as the ride went on, then I would have no problem singing, clapping, playing, hula dancing... whatever. It's really in everyone's best interest and I could care less if someone near by thought I should discipline the personality out of my child. They have no clue what I'm dealing with. And even when I tell them most people have no clue what Sensory Processing Disorder is and I've had people roll their eyes at me. Fun.

Anyway, I think as a society we need to relax a bit and realize that sometimes when we have to share space it does not go the way we'd like (IE quietly) and that if we try to be kind and understanding there would be more community and less animosity.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stephenie* 
My son has Sensory Processing Disorder and taking him on a train would be hell. If singing would keep him from completely losing it, by God I would sing. And if people knew the alternative for him, I think they would (should) appreciate it. He both seeks and fears sensory input, ,so one day the train may just scare him so badly that he screams the whole time, while the next day I would not be able to keep him from running around, crashing into things. Couple that with the fact that I would also have a nine month old with me and chasing him would be hard... singing is the least he could be doing. Like an Autistic child, he looks "normal." No one can tell by looking at him that his brain works differently than most. And even talking to him, once again, he sounds "normal"... he even talks better than most kids his age. I get a lot of dirty looks and I get really darn sick of it. It's hard and I am doing my best. That is what I try to assume with other parents. Even when kids are not special needs, they all have their days... and so do parents.

So while I personally try to avoid places like the train when I can, if I had to be there and it kept him still or from having a meltdown that increased as the ride went on, then I would have no problem singing, clapping, playing, hula dancing... whatever. It's really in everyone's best interest and I could care less if someone near by thought I should discipline the personality out of my child. They have no clue what I'm dealing with. And even when I tell them most people have no clue what Sensory Processing Disorder is and I've had people roll their eyes at me. Fun.

Anyway, I think as a society we need to relax a bit and realize that sometimes when we have to share space it does not go the way we'd like (IE quietly) and that if we try to be kind and understanding there would be more community and less animosity.









Completely agree.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.










I have one difficult child (may or may not diagnosable with one thing or another) and one easy one. Fortunately (IMO) I had the hard one first. I have certainly learned a lot from having her.

Having had the second, I see, too, why parents of easier kids don't really get it. But that's not really an excuse.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.

Disciplining a child based on what others would like to see is a narrow-minded, "cookie-cutter" approach to what is a constantly changing dynamic. Most discipline situations with children do not fit neatly into a formula. What is best for the child vs what is best for the family vs what is best for society is a delicate balance that varies depending on the situation and individual(s) involved.


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
And maybe you'll understand why I will always be quick to defend the child and the parents. I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.

.

Oh I understand it, I just think that it is different from what the OP was talking about.

The truth is, not all children who are difficult or unruly are special needs kids. _Some_ just have lousy parents. Clearly you are not one of them, so I guess while your passion is marvelous, it simply does not apply to all kids, in all situations. You seem to have really personalized this question, when I think that the (general) question is much larger than just you, your child, and their specific set of needs and/or behavioral issues.

Some parents of kids who CAN behave in an appropriate manner, should encourage them more to do so. But like you said, we all have different ideas of what "appropriate" is. YOu find loud singing on a train appropriate, I don't. Neither feeling ought open either one of us up for judgement, in my opinion. Statements like this:

Quote:

I have had trying times that you can only imagine.
When you know nothing about the person to whom you are speaking, probably don't serve to warm people to your opinion or situation. It feels pretty assumptive to me....and almost the direct opposite of this statement:

Quote:

I'd like to see more support, tolerance, patience, understanding, and compassion. I'm not about to expect mature behavior from my children when I can't find it in most adults.
which I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
The truth is, not all children who are difficult or unruly are special needs kids. _Some_ just have lousy parents. Clearly you are not one of them, so I guess while your passion is marvelous, it simply does not apply to all kids, in all situations. You seem to have really personalized this question, when I think that the (general) question is much larger than just you, your child, and their specific set of needs and/or behavioral issues.

Some parents of kids who CAN behave in an appropriate manner, should encourage them more to do so. But like you said, we all have different ideas of what "appropriate" is. YOu find loud singing on a train appropriate, I don't. Neither feeling ought open either one of us up for judgement, in my opinion. Statements like this:

When you know nothing about the person to whom you are speaking, probably don't serve to warm people to your opinion or situation. It feels pretty assumptive to me....and almost the direct opposite of this statement:

which I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

Well I can guarantee that you haven't experienced the difficult times that I have experienced. It's next to impossible to duplicate those conditions. And I disagree that it's the opposite of the other statement. In fact, I think they're complimentary. You can't imagine what I've been through. My experiences are inseparable from me. I will process x differently than you will process x because I am a different person with a different mental and physical makeup and a different lifetime set of experiences than you are. Everything that I go through is filtered through that which is ME. And my experiences include all of that. There is no experience separate from that which experiences it. Perhaps too much philosophy there...
How's this - my difficult times are mine alone and no one else's because they include that which make up me - the way I process those difficulties, the ways I cope with them, my actions and reactions - as well as my environment and other environmental factors (like other people, experiences, etc.) So, I stand by my statement.

And, if we all considered that other people are experiencing various things through the filters of _their_ own past experiences, mental processes, environmental conditions, and so forth, instead of believing that they have had identical experiences to our own and thus should act/ react in the ways that we believe we would act/ react, then we would be able to feel more patience, understanding, compassion, etc.

I have had trying times that you can only imagine. So, start imagining. Take a look at me with my child who isn't following directions, won't stop touching everything, won't sit still, is being loud and annoying and repeating words and the laughing, and is trying to get out of my grasp so he can run around and throw things. You can judge me as a bad mother and my child as a brat. Or you can realize that you don't know my situation. Would it make you feel better to glare at me? Or to smile at me? To mutter about unruly children and their useless parents? Or to ask if there's anything you can do to help?

Not all kids have special needs. Not all parents have special needs. Some kids are lousy. Some parents are lousy. Some kids are just having a tough time. Some parents are just having a tough time. I am very aware that the question is larger than my specific circumstances. Are you aware that it's larger than yours? If I am a lousy parent with a lousy child, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to change that? Is there anything that you can do? Do you think that sitting in judgment changes that situation at all? Do you honestly believe that a comment about my uselessness as a parent is going to magically transform me into a better parent? Do you think that dissing me to others on an internet forum would make my child behave in a more appropriate manner?

Me talking about my special needs child wasn't about me trying to say that all situations are like mine. It was about me trying to show that you can't tell when they're not. If I didn't know that my child had special needs until he was older, then even your closest friends may have children with special needs that none of you are aware of. Certainly it's possible that the unruly kids you see in public have special needs. Maybe they're diagnosed, maybe not. Maybe their parents are trying to parent them but haven't figured out how to effectively discipline them yet (it's not as easy as you might think.) Or maybe those unruly kids don't have special needs. Maybe they're just brats and their parents are useless. Or maybe everyone's tired and emotionally drained because of a recent loss - death, divorce, etc. You're on the outside, deciding what's on the inside, but you can't see. So, does it serve anyone to decide that what you see is what you get, and it's just that simple? Does it help anyone to sit in judgment? Or would it be more helpful to decide that you don't know the whole story, you probably will never know the whole story, and even if it's a matter of the whole family being spoiled brats, it won't do any good to be hurtful or cruel or judgmental about it?

I don't feel good when I'm judging people as less worthy than I. And that's what it comes down to - judging them as bad parents or bad kids because they're not meeting my superior expectations of parents and kids. I don't want to feel superior. I feel much better when I'm supportive, caring, understanding, patient, tolerant. I feel better when I offer help, or even just a smile. I know that, when I'm expecting a roomful of people to glare at me because of my child's behavior or me losing my temper, I feel more tense and more upset. And when I look up to see a smile, an understanding look, or get an offer of help or commiseration, I'm more able to calm down and try again to deal with the situation.
Sometimes, it takes someone thinking, "This could be a special needs child, so I shouldn't judge" in order to stop that automatic judgment. So, I share my story. Maybe people will practice not judging, and instead being supportive, because they get into the habit of assuming _special needs_ or _bad day_ or whatever instead of assuming _brat_ or _bad parents_. If that's what it takes, so be it. For others, it will only take consideration of the fact that judging others as being "less than" doesn't help make the world a better place. Do something that does.


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## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

Again, you are making this all about you. I am sorry that you have had awful experiences. But this OP is about how we would expect OUR children to behave. That does not mean that because I know that my kids can and do behave on a train (like happy children, full of spirit, but who don't have any need to sing loudly in a confined space) , so my expectations would be in line with my knowledge of MY kids. My sense of appropriate or my basis for choosing what expectations I have are based solely on my kids. As yours are.

If my kids had different needs, I would surely have different expectations.

I don't spend much time worrying about other peoples kids. I know enough to know that I have no idea what is going on with another child or parent or situation, and honestly I generally don't care very much. If I am annoyed by loud children (and yes, often in confined spaces MANY things can annoy me ~ not just children) I move. I don't waste a ton of time glaring, judging, hating, or whatever else you presume about parents of non special needs kids. I was replying to this post talking about what I assume or expect for/from my kids. You seem to be replying based on what you *think* "people" assume or expect for/from your kids.

Anyway, I am sure we could continue to go round and round. I just hope you understand that just because some people have kids who CAN behave, does not mean that they automatically judge those who CAN'T. My heart goes out to any child or parent in any hard situation ~ whether it is a one off thing, or a daily hardship. Like I posted earlier, we are all Mothers ~ to one degree or another we have all had those moments. Some more, some less frequently ~ But having them more frequently does not mean that judging all the others is fair or right.

Thank you for taking the time to try to explain your situation/children to me. I am very sorry that you have had so many trying times. Of COURSE this is true:

Quote:

Well I can guarantee that you haven't experienced the difficult times that I have experienced. It's next to impossible to duplicate those conditions. And I disagree that it's the opposite of the other statement. In fact, I think they're complimentary. You can't imagine what I've been through. My experiences are inseparable from me. I will process x differently than you will process x because I am a different person with a different mental and physical makeup and a different lifetime set of experiences than you are. Everything that I go through is filtered through that which is ME. And my experiences include all of that. There is no experience separate from that which experiences it. Perhaps too much philosophy there...
How's this - my difficult times are mine alone and no one else's because they include that which make up me - the way I process those difficulties, the ways I cope with them, my actions and reactions - as well as my environment and other environmental factors (like other people, experiences, etc.) So, I stand by my statement.
, that is called life. And I guarantee that while you MAY have experienced judgement, hatred, intolerance, or mean looks from people on a train, none of them have been from me. So while I suppose any one of us could at any time say to any other of us "I have had trying times that you can only imagine" ~ it will always be true, and I am sure you can see how it might often times be considered assumptive, if only for how unnecessary it is..... I think that to a degree we can stipulate that truth in all interactions, when used in a general philosophical way as you seem to be. The whole "walk a mile in my shoes" and whatnot.

I worry about my kids. Only my kids, in situations pertaining to my kids. Probably almost to a fault. The idea that everyone who has DIFFERENT (not better) ideas of proper behavior for THEIR kids either kills the joy out of them, or is hateful and intolerant to OTHER children, simply made me bristle. I do apologize if I am not doing a good job of getting my point across. It just seems as judgmental to assume that because I have different (NOT better, just different) standards for my kids that I hate yours, or judge you, or anything else. Can't you be as open minded about my kids capabilities as you ask me to be about your kids special needs? It only seems fair. Not all easy kids are products of overbearing hateful smothering parents. Surely there is some grey area there, you know? And while I am quoting and replying to you, I am not just directing that to you ~ But to several of the PP's on this thread who I felt implied that those of us who have different expectations for OUR children judge their children.

Whew. I need some coffee. Hope I make sense


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

You seem to be reading something in my posts that isn't there. While some people in this thread may have wanted to just speak about their own expectations as parents to their own children, there have also been posts about other people's children. So, no, I'm not making it all about me. I'm not caring about how other people parent their own children. I truly don't care what expectations you have of your own children. I think that it's in judging other people and their chldren that creates problems. I don't think I can make that any more clear.
I'm glad that you don't go around judging others. I guess I'll leave it at that rather than go line by line trying to explain what I'm saying again. We don't seem to be reading each other's words as they're meant. At all.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

If one is doing something that bothers *most* of the people around them, it is probably inappropriate. Yes, kids will be kids. But a child's wants do not trump the wants of others. Notice I said wants....not needs.

Excessive noise on a train ride would most likely give me a headache, which in turn would contribute to a feeling of carsickness. And yes, if adults were singing loudly on a train, I would find that equally annoying. Not because I sit in judgement of their behavior, like some holier-than-thou snob, but because their actions directly impact MY well-being and/or MY enjoyment of the ride. Why is it okay for kids to have a good time at the expense of others?

There are dozens of ways to have fun on a train ride. Being loud isn't necessary. I've taken trains, loooong flights, and a bazillion road-trips with my kids, and never found the need to have them shout, yell, or run around _enclosed spaces_ to keep them happy.

As for playing with sugar packets and other condiments in restaurants...I'm a big proponent of being prepared. If I took my kids out someplace when they were little, I made sure we had activities/toys with us for them to play with. And yes, if sugar packets get wet, stained with debris from the table, et cetera, they get thrown away. I work in a restaurant. I've seen people allowing their babies to teeth on salt shakers and whatnot. Gross! Is it really so difficult to throw a couple of toys in a diaper bag, or keep a deck of cards or pack of crayons in your purse?


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I think you are taking your individual child, and expecting every other child to be a carbon copy. My kids are nothing like your kid. My kids respond in their ways. What works for your child won't work for mine. Maybe, one day, you'll have a difficult child and realize that it wasn't your parenting that caused your child to behave, but that your child simply made parenting easy for you. You wouldn't be the first at MDC to have such an epiphany.

Love this. Worth repeating.


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## sha_lyn (Jul 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tallulahma* 
i think library's have rules about noise- at least ours do.... and we always follow posted rules and maintain a respect for the things of others.

but on a train or restaurant? havent we all been on a train with a group of people laughing really loudly or getting really into a story being told? i wouldnt let that offend me either- people enjoying life... laughing. I cannot even count how many times I have been at a restaurant with girlfriends or a group of adults where we were drinking and laughing and being loud or spilling drinks and been treated WONDERFULLY By our wait staff... because their tip would be huge since our bill was increasing with our noise level. no one was commenting on our rude waste of alcohol...

*people make exceptions for adults all the time in the name of fun or a good time... yet when children are encouraged to act out in joy- people are up in arms and talking about lazy parents and bad behaviour and such*.

Bravo very well said. I think the last sentence is the best in the whole thread (while there are many that touch me).


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Havent read any posts on this, but going by your title-i think its ok for kids to sing at a reasonable volume. I cant imagine anyone being bothered bythis. But if they were, then they could kindly ask to sing more softly, but to ask them to stop, thats like the gringe that stole christmas mentality.

Im always on the side of singers, being one myself.

But yes, its ok. If other people have a problem, tell them to get a life, or go to another carriage (ok,i would be more polite in real life, but i would not tell my children to stop singing)


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Ok, should have read the actual post.









OP, im with you on keeping voices down. I would still stick to what i said earlier, and let them know if the volume is bothering you, to tone it down. But yes, i agree that the other passengers should be more considerate.
Maya


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