# Desperate. My sweet boy is crying alone in his room right now. *Update* Everything is even worse...



## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

So, I have been trying for over two hours to get my son to sleep. He is crying, tantruming, screaming, crawling out of bed, and just not sleepy at all. He normally goes down to sleep at around 7:30 or so, and I have been trying to night wean for the past couple of weeks.

Tonight I nursed him down, sang lullabies, and his eyes were closed, his breathing was regular, and I laid there for 10 minutes or so after I was POSITIVE he was asleep. As soon as I got up, he popped up and started asking for more nursing and lullabies. I nursed him down one more time, and again, he popped up as soon as I got up out of bed. At that point, I said, "No more nay-nay's, time for sleep" and I laid back down with him while he fussed himself nearly to sleep. He then laid there silently with his eyes wide open for a half hour or so and I finally said, "Mama needs to go downstairs, you will be ok, I will be up later". He freaked out, so I laid back down with him again.

This went on and on and on and on, and now I am absolutely at the end of my rope. I got 1.5 hours of sleep last night TOTAL because of fighting with him over nursing. I average about 2-4 hours of sleep a night when he is nursing non-stop at night and it HAS to end. I am not a good mama lately. I yell, I push him away, I can't stand the thought of nursing him at all. I don't want to wean, he is not ready, and I don't want to boot him from my bed.

I just came downstairs because he was crawling out of bed over and over and over again while screaming for water. I gave him a sippy of water, which he just wants to hold. I don't want a wet bed, so I took it away. I don't know what to do. I am exhausted, he is crying alone, and I am feeling like the worst mama on the planet.

I am headed back up there now to see if I can try to get him back down, but I am starting to truly believe that he does not need to sleep more than 4 hours or so out of each 24 hour period.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

i have no advice, but you aren't alone. And you aren't a bad mother, just a tired one!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

get a sippy cup that doesnt leak

the nuk ones are pretty good and bpa free

what you are describing is why i never tried to nightwean. it just sounds like hes not ready if you are spending hours doing this.

is there any way you can stop having bedtime ubtil he gets used to not nursing.


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## momoftworedheads (Mar 6, 2003)

I know a LC that has a plan for nightweaning help but it includes someone else to do the co-sleeping piece for a few nights.

What you would do is not nurse your son to sleep. You would tell him that he can nurse when the sun is up (if your goal is to night wean). Then have DP or another very close relative lay with him until he is asleep. When he wakes and wants you, he is comforted by whomever fell asleep with him. You do this for a couple of nights (2-3) and then you gradually add yourself back to the sleep routine with no nursing.

I have never personally done this, but this is what she tells mamas who want to nightwean to do and it has worked. You have to add another form of comforting because that is what he is looking for.

All the best!

Take care,
Jen


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Mine is about the same age as yours, and he recently started to need less sleep. I have started joining him for his naps when we are home.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

Im sorry your having a bad night. Have you tried a bath that really helps my nonsleeper. Is there a DP who could give you a much needed break? Hang in there we all have feeling like this sometimes.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Doesn't sound like much improvement.

I hope things look up soon.

-Angela


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

When we night-weaned our dd (not including nursing to bed, we still do that), my dh took over as nighttime parent. He even began to cosleep with her in another room, because if I was anywhere near her, she'd scream for me.

It worked really well, and dh still cosleeps with her. When she wakes up in the middle of the night, she says "dadda?" to make sure he's there.

Night weaning gave me back the sleep I so desperately needed, but I could not have done it without my dh.

Have you thought about nightweaning, but still nurse him to sleep? When he wakes up in the middle of the night, don't nurse him, but allow him to actually get to sleep with breastfeeding.


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

/hug

My little man is refusing sleep. In fact, I'm a horrible mother because I let him cry earlier, and now I'm horrible for one hand typing and letting him be awake snuggled on my lap at 11 PM.

But here's my thinking - if either way I'm horrible, I choose the part with less screaming and pain.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
/hug

My little man is refusing sleep. In fact, I'm a horrible mother because I let him cry earlier, and now I'm horrible for one hand typing and letting him be awake snuggled on my lap at 11 PM.

But here's my thinking - if either way I'm horrible, I choose the part with less screaming and pain.


What would be horrible about "letting" him be awake if he's happy?

-Angela


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
What would be horrible about "letting" him be awake if he's happy?

-Angela

I was out of my head with exhaustion and not typing clearly









Even the most pig headed and self confident person can get beaten down by endless "shouldas" from the universe. My son "should" go to bed at 8 or earlier. My son "should" sleep through the night. My son "should" go without nursing all night (since he weighed ten pounds, according to one doctor).

A few weeks ago my little dude got the hang of crawling forward and cut a tooth at the same time, and his sleep "schedule" - down around 11 every night, waking once for milk, down until 9 AM, two two-hour naps every day like clockwork - went to hell. He started napping for 30 minutes at his normal bedtime, but would stay awake until 1, crying and squirming. Then up every 90 minutes for nursing, and if denied, wild screaming. Then awake at 8 AM and no going back to sleep. Then fighting naps until so exhausted that he'd just fall over.

The cumulative effect has been brutal. And I have tried everything from Hylands to lavender oil to white noise to walking to wearing to rocking to singing to Tylenol. My eating hasn't changed, his hasn't changed, our routines hadn't changed. And everyone I asked for help second guessed me ("once you've put him down you can't take him back downstairs no matter how mad he gets - he's manipulating you") or told me to let him CIO (and without going into details, I have concluded that my son doesn't have the temperament where that would ever work).

So last night I snapped. I figured those "everyones" would think I was horrible no matter what path I chose, and so now we try bedtime, and if he wakes up, he comes and sits on our laps until we go to bed. I'm back to my normal self and certainty that *I* am doing the right thing for *my* son, and everyone else can suck it. Also, last night he fell asleep at midnight, woke up once for milk, and just now woke up for the day, so... victory, I guess?

Sorry for the length -


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Hang in there mama.

-Angela


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## Selesai (Oct 26, 2005)

I agree. I don't think he is ready to nightwean.

That being said, I disagree with a previous poster. My son is 2.5 and still nurses to sleep, even though he is nightweaned. When I first started nightweaning, I tried Jay Gordon's method, which included nursing him to sleep as normal. I had to stop the nightweaning a few times beacuse DS wasn't ready or was sick. This time has been successful, but he still doesn't always sleep through the night. That's just how he is. And only recently has he been able to understand and accept that I will not always nurse him to sleep, but will always nurse him right before sleep. And, I have to wait until he's in the "limp arm" sleep stage before I leave the room, or he too will pop up.
I think your son is too young to understand what's going on, and too young to be ok with it.

All this being said, my DS was not cosleeping when I tried nightweaning (he moved into his own bed at about 18 mos).

I think you should stop trying. Do what is easiest. I would actually consider moving him into his own bed (even if it's in the same room, or a sidecarred crib) before I would try nightweaning, given this reaction.

Also try white noise and darkness. And maybe for a few nights you should just go to sleep with him, to try to get some more rest.

HTH


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I just got a product called "Calms Forte" and it is working wonders on my LO's. Get some and start giving it to him either disolved in a sippy or just by mouth an hour before sleep. See if it works.

Its made by hylands, (teething tablets) and its a homeopathic.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Adding - my dc who was nursed to sleep until late toddlerhood has the worst sleep habits of all my kids.







:


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

He's probably too young for night-weaning, and if it's causing all these problems, is it really worth it?

That being said, if he's waking up that often at night, you can certainly try other methods of getting him back to sleep other than nursing, but if they don't work, or if he freaks out, nurse. Also check whether he's wet. It might also just be a stage, they sometimes get very disrupted in their sleep when going through developmental milestones. That's probably about the most unfortunate time to try night-weaning!

As for getting him to sleep, have you tried wearing him down? When DD has been at her crankiest -- as in, not just happily being awake when we'd rather she was sleeping, but being miserable, obviously tired, and screaming -- I would just wrap her on my back and go about the housework. She'd usually settle within 5 minutes, then within 15 minutes to an hour, she'd be fast asleep. DH would do this too, put her in his pouch sling and do some housework. Or when the weather was warm, we'd go for a walk with her in the sling.

We've had to accept, though, that her sleep schedule is not "ideal" lol... she usually goes to sleep anywhere from 9 until midnight, and wakes up between 9-10am. She's happy like this, so why fight it?


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## cherimoya (Mar 23, 2008)

I can't help you with the how-to night-wean stuff if you're set on doing that. But I can tell you that I know how you feel. Being tired & exhausted is no fun. With my ds I found out early on that he was just not going to sleep without me and I was not going to feel ok with crying etc....I came to terms with the fact that I had to do this for my son, even though I was tired/exhausted/working etc. By about 10months we put a queen mattress on his floor in his room and he and I slept/nursed there until he was 3 years old.







He did not sleep through the night until 2.5 years and I was ok with that - i just learned to not tell anyone like in-laws etc so I didn't get any unwanted sleeping advice.

Now with my dd, after 6mo of co-sleeping with Mum & Dad we put the queen mattress on the floor in her room and I'm sleeping/nursing most of the nights with her in her room. No drama! So much easier this time around because we knew what to do, what worked for us.

Good luck! Oh by the way....I am now addicted to coffee though!!


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

It doesn't sound like night weaning is the problem from your original post, it sounds like getting him to sleep is the problem. Can you change it up a bit and have DH put him down for a few nights?

Give yourself a break mama. You are doing your best and I have been there with the 2 hour battle to sleep.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

I Feel your pain mommy! I hope everyone gets the sleep they need very soon. You are not a terrible mom. Hang in there.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

I completely agree that he is not ready for night weaning, but the non-stop nurse fest every single night is killing me. I average 2-4 hours of sleep when he is nursing throughout the night, and I don't know anyone who can function and be a good parent on that little sleep.

I am out of my mind exhausted most days, and I don't have a partner, or even a relative or friend who could come put him to bed for a few nights. I HAVE to figure this out on my own. There just are no other options.

I feel like after a week and a half of trying to night wean, and a week of no nursing at night at all, he should be making some progress, but he isn't at all. He is worse if anything. I am trying to nap with him, but that literally means never leaving my house. If we go anywhere in the car, he naps in the car and then doesn't nap at home. I think he may be getting ready to give up his nap entirely, which might help at night, but I am seriously doubting it at this point.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I have been sleep deprived for nearly two years (over two if you count pregnancy induced insomnia). I am ready to run away from him screaming. I don't understand how such a little guy could require so little sleep. I have come to hate our bedroom and my bed. I hate bedtime, and everything to do with sleep. I have insane insomnia on the rare night that he sleeps well, so I can't even catch up then.

Last night when I went back up after letting him cry for about 10 minutes, he took another hour at least to finally fall asleep. He did pretty well for the rest of the night, and we slept in until 8:30 this morning, but now I am terrified that sleeping in will mess up his schedule tonight.

There just doesn't seem to be any info out there that I can find on kids who JUST.WILL.NOT.SLEEP. I wish there were a way to fix this. I am so at the end of my rope.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Kim,










Have you tried a pacifier or perhaps a bottle of water or something? I dont remember if you mentioned it.

Also, definatly get the calms forte. Put it in the bottle if you decide to take it to bed with you. Maybe he is thirsty?









Love you you mama. Your sleep is way more important than the idealistic nursing relationship. It is ok to let go of those things when you are not taking care of yourself. If you dont take care of yourself, you are right, you can not be the best mom you want to be.








:


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## petram (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi PumpkinPie! I also have a baby who just doesn't sleep. He's 7 months old now, and even in the hospital the day of his birth he wouldn't sleep. Until he was about 3 months old the only way we could get him to sleep was by breastfeeding, or carrying him around in the baby sling. I now refuse to breastfeed to sleep, because it turned in to an awful affair, with him not actually being hungry and so feeding just a couple of sips every 5 minutes for hours on end. Now it takes me atleast an hour and a half of lying beside him in our bed shhhing him, while he screams and screams, and rips at his hair, and practices crawling, and then gets happy and hypo and then screams again and I swear the neighbours think I am killing him. You would have to see it to believe it, but it's awful awful. He'll only ever sleep 30 minutes, and I have to shh him and try to get him back to sleep, which hardly ever works. Then I have a grumpy boy within half an hour of being up and I can't put him down or do anything but carry him. And then it's back to bed again. I also dread the thought of sleep, of nap time, of anything associated with his sleep. It is soooo stressful it is unbelievable. And there's no break, no recovery time, because when he's awake he just wants to be with me and is grizzly grizzly grizzly. We're tried homepathic medicines, feeding more solids, foot reflexology, craniosacral therapy. We've been to doctors and midwives and "mutterberatung" (literal translation, mother advice). And no one can help. They just say let him cry it out. Besides being against it, there's no way it would ever work that I can see, if he cries for hours with me there with him, he's going to cry even more when his Ama has abandoned him! So anyway, this is just a post to say I really feel for you, but I'm also kind of relieved that there is someone else battling with me. Like you, I can't find any information about babies that just won't sleep. Good luck!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Have you tried a later bedtime or letting him go to bed when you do? My DD has a restless night if she notices I'm not in bed with her. It's as if she keeps waking up to make sure I'm still in bed. If I need to get up after she goes to sleep I go to her as soon as she starts to wake and get her back to sleep before she wakes completely up.
Your DS could be getting ready to give up his nap too. We had crazy nights with two hours getting to sleep and sometimes staying awake till 2am right before my DD gave hers up at 27 months. Some nights she falls asleep so fast, she needs to nurse again about an hour later, but then sleeps really sound.
I don't have any advice for night weaning (we still haven't and DD is 3). She did stop most of her night nursing, sleeping for a solid 8 hours stretch after her last teeth came in.


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm sorry it's so hard, and you have to cope with it all on your own! For the not going to sleep, I don't know if this would apply in your situation, but I would backup for a few days and go into observer/following your LO's lead mode to see if something has shifted... Does LO need to go to bed earlier or later than before, need or not need a nap... I would probably scratch the nightweaning at least as you've been doing it, for a few days, too, in case that has your LO too stressed to sleep. Could you go into "emergency" mode at home for a few days, nap with LO, stay as peaceful as possible to conserve energy for the evenings? Take care of yourself as much as possible...

Even if you don't completely nightwean, perhaps you could think of small step toward more independent falling asleep that you could encourage your LO to take. Like just removing the nipple a little sooner when LO is nodding off can sometimes make a big difference in their ability to stay calm and self-sooth when they move towards awakeness in between sleep cycles...


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## babydanielsmom (Jan 18, 2008)

just wanted to check in and see how things are going? Hope you guys are having some peaceful nights!


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Last night, he went to bed at around 8pm. He fell asleep nursing on my lap downstairs in the living room. I was so afraid he would wake up, that I took him upstairs and didn't even change his dipe or put his pajamas on. I just left him in his play clothes and changed him this morning. He actually slept from 8pm to 6:30am without waking up! I have no idea what was different. He had a mini nap a little late in the day, but he has had short naps before, so I am not sure what happened.

Today, he went to a preschool from 8am-1:30pm and then we ran some errands on the way home, played on the floor, had dinner, and then went outside and ran around in the snow for about an hour. He was so tired by the time he came in, he could barely stand up. He conked out at about 6:45, and is so soundly asleep, I would be surprised if he wakes up for at least a few hours. I am so hoping he is down for the entire night again. I don't know if this is the beginning of a phase of sleeping better or not, but I pray to God it is! I can't believe how rested I felt after getting about 7 hours last night.


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## petram (Oct 3, 2008)

fantastic! i hope tonight goes just as well







:


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

1. Are you sure he is really tired when at bedtime? I find that we parents often assume that because our child has always needed to go to bed at a certain time in the past, he must still be tired at that time now. Is it possible that he naps enough in the day and needs to go to bed later? Or maybe he can drop the nap (rare at his age but my mom says that I dropped all naps at the age of 12 months).

2. Is it possible that he is overtired by the time he gets into bed and he needs to go to bed earlier?

3. Do you have a systematic bedtime routine?

4. This does not work for every child, but when my daughter started resisting going to bed at about age 2, I bought her a CD player and some CDs. Now at her bedtime, she just listens to soft children's music and she is asleep within minutes. The CDs really were a miracle for us because before she would just keep getting out of bed and/or asking us to lay down with her until she fell asleep and she would be up for hours even though she was tired.

Good luck!


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## Tygrrkttn (Jul 10, 2005)

PP,

I feel so much for you! Can you put out a call for help in your area of Finding Your Tribe? Someone to come watch your babe at your house while you nap? Someone special who can devote a few nights to heling you nightwean maybe? Just someone you can call on the phone when your feeling crazy?

I agree with the PP's. Tire him out. Get him lots of fresh air play. Move back his bedtime to when he's tired, some babes sleep at 7p, some at 11p. Sleep with him with a bra and sweatshirt on, I couldn't nightwean till my daughter couldn't smell the milk on me and couldn't just roll over and help herself. (It's like when you're in bed and a little munchy, your too lazy to get out of bed and go to the kitchen for a snack so you just go back to sleep till breakfast BUT if there was a cheescake there in bed with you you'd sure eat it, LOL
















Let go of what the neighbors think or what the books say or what you think is the Right way to do it. You do whatever makes you and babe happy and gets you both some sleep! There's momma's on here who let their babes stay up with them till midnight and everybody sleeps in till 10A together. You do what works for You!

We're there with ya in spirit Momma, hang in there. I know it seems endless and horrible. But, I have a 16 yr old son who was a sleeper like this, I'd give anything to hold him like that again, even with the screaming, <smile>.

TK


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Hope things continue along this much better path!


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

DD went through periods when she needed LOTS of activity and stimulation during the day in order to get any kind of sleep at all.

Is he ready to drop to one nap?


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

He ended waking up once last night, and I was too tired to fight nursing him, so I let him. He actually only nursed for about 10 minutes and I was able to unlatch him. If I could keep the middle of the nursings down to once or twice at about 10 minutes each time, I would be totally ok with not night weaning. I have no idea how to get that idea across to a one and a half year old though.

Tonight, he only napped about a half hour on my back at the mall. I was walking around with a friend, and he fell asleep for a little while, but that was his only nap all day. He fell asleep tonight at around 6:15, but I wouldn't say he really had a very busy day. We ran some errands this morning, but he didn't get all that much physical exercise. I am curious to see how he sleeps tonight. If he has a hard time, I think I am going to definitely start keeping track of his activity level and how he sleeps at night.

I am definitely feeling a bit better with a couple of nights of relatively good sleep (at least 6 hours each night) under my belt. I am sorry to have posted such a dreary first post, but thank-you so much mamas for your support. Hopefully we are onto something good here. I am not holding my breath, but I am crossing my fingers.


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## JaySaint (Oct 11, 2008)

Pumpkin Pie --

I'm so glad to read that you've had a few good nights. I hope tonight continues in the same way.

My son is a bit younger than yours (14 months) but we had a similar situation a few weeks ago. He wanted to nurse non stop. He screamed if I tried to unlatch him. I always gave in. I don't have it in me to resist a baby pulling on my pajama top and whimpering "nus nus nus." But I was staggering around all day and my work was suffering. Nursing once or twice a night? No problem. Non stop? Impossible to continue forever. We're back pretty reliably to once a night now and there are two points I took away from the experience:

-- A much earlier bedtime helped. I don't know why. He gets up earlier, so isn't sleeping any longer at night. But going to bed about two hours earlier (even though he didn't seem tired at all) seems to work better with his internal clock -- at least for now. So we moved him from around 11 to around 8:30-9. And now he takes two long naps a day (1-2 hours) where he was normally sleeping much less. I don't pretend to understand it, but it did make a difference.

-- While I think it's important to keep trying different things to see what works for your family, I also think sometimes the baby has to work it out for himself. Any time my son has had sleep trouble we go into crisis mode and start trying all kinds of stuff. But it's also possible that keeps us sane and hopeful and occupied while he works through his developmental stage or whatever it is and then goes back to sleeping fine just as he would have if we'd done nothing. I say that not to make you feel like there's nothing you can do, but to say that I think a lot of extra stress comes out of us judging our ability to manage our babies. But in reality maybe all you can do is love and support him while he does his thing. You're not missing some instinct or wisdom that would fix everything faster. I feel a lot calmer when I can bring myself to say, "He'll come around. He just needs to go through this."

My hat is off to you for managing this on your own. That you're still looking for solutions is a testament to your dedication and stamina. Your baby is a lucky little guy.

I'm looking forward to reading how you're doing.

Best,

-- JaySaint


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, so last night was a little harder than the night before. He woke a couple of times, and was a little harder to get to unlatch. I really hope we are not going in reverse again. He got a ton of activity today, and I also picked up some Calms Forte. I gave him some shortly after dinner, and am going to give him more in a few minutes before we go upstairs to try to nurse down for the night. He didn't really nap at all today. He did close his eyes at a friend's house this afternoon, but he was really only asleep for a three or four minutes at the absolute most.

I am really hoping he conks out easily tonight, and we get another night of good sleep. Even if we can get one or two good nights a week, that will be a huge improvement over where we were.

Here goes nothing yet again!


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Wow, that sounds rough. You have my sympathies.

When my lo was that age and restless/overly nursey at night, I found two strategies to be particularly helpful.

1. Keep him moving all day long. Whatever he likes that is physically strenuous, do LOTS of it. I used to ask dc to run around the house while I counted laps out loud in an excited, impressed voice. One of those little trampolines does the trick, too.

2. Feed him something heavy, carbohydrate-y, and long-lasting in the tummy close to bedtime. Oatmeal works great. It would help dc feel sleepy and then help him stay asleep once he got there. While I would never do that with a young baby, I think it's a reasonable measure at your dc's age.

Good luck! I'll be thinking about you and sending sleep vibes your way.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, it is now 10:15pm at night. I have been trying to get my son to sleep for over three hours now. He only slept about 6 hours last night, took a late nap that I ended up waking him up from, and WILL NOT GO TO SLEEP.

I have tried nursing, singing, patting him on the back, giving him chamomile tea, giving him CalmsForte, even a dose of infant Tylenol







I have begged, pleaded, cried, put him back to bed at least 100 times (I am so not exaggerating. I wish I was), I have screamed at him







:, I even threw him across the bed in absolute desperate exhausted mama rage. He landed on pillows and actually giggled, so he is fine, but I am mortified. He is right now screaming at the door of our bedroom with a baby gate across it. I am about to go back up to try one more time to nurse him down, but I honestly have no hope that it will work.

This has gone one for almost two years now. He will have a few good nights of sleep, and occasionally as many as a week, and then it is back to the world's most crappy sleeper. How on earth do I deal? I am a single mama. There is absolutely no one else I can get to help with this. I am so ready to just CIO. I don't want to, I don't believe in it. I know that it is abusive. I am so freaking desperate. I want to run away, get in my car and just keep driving for a week. I don't want to be his mama right now.







:

I forgot to add, he had a super busy day, so he got a ton of exercise. We got outside for quite a while too. He had a great dinner with lots of protein, a snack before bed, and he has had a sippy of warm chamomile tea to sip on. He has a dry diaper, he has nursed until my nipples are raw, he just absolutely cannot sleep for some reason. He gets super sleepy when he nurses and then his eyes pop open and he just lays there fidgeting and can't get to sleep. When I try to leave the room, he freaks. I don't get any alone time at all. Ever. The only time I get is in the evening. This is it.

Here goes nothing. Going back up to him. Again.


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## greenemami (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I came to this forum and read your post because I have been having a rough time with my dd's sleep too (she is about the same age as your ds) and was looking on some advice on nightweaning, but it sounds like this is a chronic problem for you. My first piece of advice would be to find some help, but if that is not possible...
try letting go of all expectations. Sometimes when my dd won't sleep, I will just take her out and pop in a movie to watch (she doesn't usually watch tv) and relax. Don't try to get him to sleep. Just hang out, lights dimmed, listening to music, reading, even going online. Whatever relaxes you and he will tolerate. Two nights ago dd and I watched Sesame street and had a snack at 3 a.m. b/c I was so frustrated with putting her back to sleep every 2 mintues or having her scream bloody murder everytime I sat down. A lot of the time, when I stop trying to get her to sleep and manage to relax myself, she relaxes too. Your ds might be picking up on your frustration and getting frustrated himself, kwim?
As to the throwing him across the bed-I'm not sure if you mean you really threw him, or what??? But it sounds like you really really need a break, someone to talk to, some sort of support system if it has gone this far. Take a deep breath, make YOURSELF a nice cup of tea, and remember that this too shall pass. Cry if you need to-I wish you luck and a peaceful night.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I totally understand that place of total frustration. Is there anyone to give you a break during the day?

I agree with the advice to try to not fight it. Find a way that you can sleep or have your time and he can be safe even if he's not sleeping. Videos can be very helpful...

wishing you peaceful sleep.

-Angela


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Thanks. He is finally asleep. I just went up and nursed him down. He fell asleep at around 10:40. I just can't believe he needs so little sleep. I don't own a tv, so I can't plop him in front of it. If I had one though, I certainly would use it on nights like this.







As for throwing him across the bed. He had gotten up out of bed so many times, I was standing at the door putting him back into bed without saying a word over and over to try to get him understanding that he needed to be in bed, and I wasn't doing anything exciting (super nanny style.







) Anyway, he was starting to giggle when I was putting him back in bed, and I picked him up and sort of tossed him up toward the head of the bed and screamed at him. He was totally fine, but the rage that went through my mind at that second was very scary. I sat down with him immediately and apologized, but you are right. I need to get some help. I have no idea where to find it, or even what to look for, but this is so not working. I actually called a child abuse prevention hotline tonight to see if they had any tips on getting a toddler to sleep, and they didn't. They actually pretty much said, that they couldn't help me, and that I just had to hang in there. I was sobbing on the phone to them, and they were absolutely not help at all. The woman was sympathetic, but she could only say that I should try rocking him or patting his back. Yep, tried that. Didn't help.

I need to get back up there to go to sleep myself. I am sure he will be awake in a few minutes anyway.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:

try letting go of all expectations. Sometimes when my dd won't sleep, I will just take her out and pop in a movie to watch (she doesn't usually watch tv) and relax. Don't try to get him to sleep. Just hang out, lights dimmed, listening to music, reading, even going online. Whatever relaxes you and he will tolerate. Two nights ago dd and I watched Sesame street and had a snack at 3 a.m. b/c I was so frustrated with putting her back to sleep every 2 mintues or having her scream bloody murder everytime I sat down. A lot of the time, when I stop trying to get her to sleep and manage to relax myself, she relaxes too. Your ds might be picking up on your frustration and getting frustrated himself, kwim?








:

If he screams when you leave, then don't leave -- or, in other words, take him with you. We do the same with DD sometimes, we just let her stay up. Yeah, she might be tired the next day, and there are other problems to deal with... but it's still easier than the alternative.

Especially if you're getting this worked up about it (and believe me, I think we've all been there at one time or another), it's time to take a step back and find a way to relax... not to "make him" do what you're wanting him to do (sleep, which is of course an understandable wish...) but a way for *you* to make peace with the situation and flow with it rather than fight against it... make lemonade out of the lemons, etc etc. KWIM?

I know it's tough when you don't get any alone time, but if you see this as a chance for positive together time rather than the screaming negatives, it's at least a step in the right direction.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









I totally understand that place of total frustration. Is there anyone to give you a break during the day?

I agree with the advice to try to not fight it. Find a way that you can sleep or have your time and he can be safe even if he's not sleeping. Videos can be very helpful...

wishing you peaceful sleep.

-Angela

I don't get many breaks. Maybe an hour or two a month if it is a good month. It really is so freaking hard.

As much as I hate the idea, I think I may start looking for a tv and a dvd player to break out for times like this. I am so anti-tv/plugging kids in, but I can't be this mama. I can't be the mama who looks down at her child and feel absolutely no love in the moment. I have to stop screaming at this poor little boy. He does not deserve to be treated like this. He just couldn't sleep and his mama freaked out on him. It so isn't his fault, but I totally took it out on him. I am hating myself right now. So sorry for such a downer post or three, but I just have about ten tons of mama guilt right now. I don't even feel like I deserve to go snuggle with him tonight.


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## La Sombra (Sep 27, 2007)

Oh, mamma, I'm SO sorry!







I have had a pretty poor little sleeper myself (not quite like your ds, I must admit, but definitely on the crappy end of the sleep spectrum!) so I know the terrifying level of frustration that you feel. I, too, felt at times like I tried EVERYTHING and would even feel outraged when people would suggest things that I was like, "Duh, you think I didn't think of that or try that???" You are so not alone.

Here are some things that have occurred to me: 1) there is, like, NO WAY that a boy his age needs so few hours of sleep per night especially if he's 2) not napping? I KNOW there are always exceptions to the rule, but MOST 18 month olds still need SOME nap time. So these things make me think that over-exhaustion is your culprit here. You say even when he's had a nap he won't sleep well sometimes, though, but if he's as bad as you say, I believe the effects of all this lack of sleep could be cumulative--in other words, one half-hour nap won't be enough to get him on track.

Of course I realize the awful catch-22 of this if it is indeed the cause: baby won't sleep 'cause he's sleep deprived so he can't sleep...and so on. To start with, get the No Cry Sleep Solution. It helps. Then, can you dedicate yourself to working on his sleep for like a week--just clear your schedule and nap with him, go to bed with him, etc.? Go to bed, turn the lights out and nurse him down. If he cries or fusses, stay in bed with the lights out. You can snuggle him, rub his back, but DON'T GET UP, DON'T turn on the lights, just lay there for as long as it takes for him to get back to sleep. Tell him, "Mr. Sun is sleeping. Mommy sleep. Baby sleep." Eventually, he should get it.

My dd will be sleeping great and then something will happen to throw the whole thing off and I have to start the battle all over again to get her to sleep: teething, sick (it's the worst--when she's sick she totally can't sleep!), or, as with the holidays, a lot of late nights and busy-ness and she's totally off-track. After the craziness of the holidays, I've had to spend the last week hunkered in at home to get her back on track--she was soooo tired and fussy that she couldn't sleep!

Most of all, mamma, I wish you all the patience, support, hope, faith and GOOD SLEEP that you deserve. I'm sorry that you have to do this alone but YOU WILL GET THROUGH IT. Everyone says this but it's sure proven true so far: it passes very quickly. I'm sure it doesn't feel like it for you after 18 months! But one day soon, this will all be done, and you'll wonder what the fuss was!

PS-I don't necessarily agree that your son isn't ready to night wean. Or rather, I think it's difficult anytime a parent decides to night wean before their children has begun the process on their own. I suppose in a sense this does mean they're "not ready." I respect that point of view. On the other hand, he's at an age where you can safely night wean and not worry about his health or any of that. And, moreover, nursing is a two-way street: if it is causing you worry and pain and too many sleepless nights, then it's NOT WORKING. I believe that there are ways to night wean that are gentle and kind and although they do take time and effort, they work and they might be worth it to you. Dr. Jay Gordon might help.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 







:

If he screams when you leave, then don't leave -- or, in other words, take him with you. We do the same with DD sometimes, we just let her stay up. Yeah, she might be tired the next day, and there are other problems to deal with... but it's still easier than the alternative.

Especially if you're getting this worked up about it (and believe me, I think we've all been there at one time or another), it's time to take a step back and find a way to relax... not to "make him" do what you're wanting him to do (sleep, which is of course an understandable wish...) but a way for *you* to make peace with the situation and flow with it rather than fight against it... make lemonade out of the lemons, etc etc. KWIM?

I know it's tough when you don't get any alone time, but if you see this as a chance for positive together time rather than the screaming negatives, it's at least a step in the right direction.

See, that is sort of just the thing though. We got into a habit of him nursing nearly to sleep, and then popping back up and saying, "Downstairs?" I would just give in and bring him back down with me, and he would play and nurse and have me read him another dozen books or so, and then we would go back upstairs when he said he was getting sleepy only to pop back up and say, "Downstairs?" again and we would come back down. It was driving me over the edge, and that was pretty much becoming our nighttime routine, so I had to stop it. I sat with him while he cried, begging to go downstairs until he finally fell asleep. I did that for a few nights, and he had started to get a bit better about it. I am so scared of repeating the same sort of downstairs, back up, downstairs, back up sort of thing that I really am terrified to bring him back down with me when he really can't sleep. I am not sure if that makes sense. I am so exhausted.


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## La Sombra (Sep 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I don't get many breaks. Maybe an hour or two a month if it is a good month. It really is so freaking hard.

As much as I hate the idea, I think I may start looking for a tv and a dvd player to break out for times like this. I am so anti-tv/plugging kids in, but I can't be this mama. I can't be the mama who looks down at her child and feel absolutely no love in the moment. I have to stop screaming at this poor little boy. He does not deserve to be treated like this. He just couldn't sleep and his mama freaked out on him. It so isn't his fault, but I totally took it out on him. I am hating myself right now. So sorry for such a downer post or three, but I just have about ten tons of mama guilt right now. I don't even feel like I deserve to go snuggle with him tonight.









Oh, mamma! Me again. OF COURSE you deserve to snuggle with your son! We have ALL felt that horrible nagging mamma guilt when we get frustrated with our lo. You are remarkable for realizing that your son is struggling, too, that he's not just doing this this to, you know, mess with your head!








Doing what you are doing with virtually no help is REALLY REALLY HARD. I hope that that changes for you someday. But you are a mamma bear and super brave and strong and loving. You are my hero!

Hang in there, it's gonna be okay!!!!!!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

From one single mama to another, TV rules.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I don't get many breaks. Maybe an hour or two a month if it is a good month. It really is so freaking hard.

As much as I hate the idea, I think I may start looking for a tv and a dvd player to break out for times like this. I am so anti-tv/plugging kids in, but I can't be this mama. I can't be the mama who looks down at her child and feel absolutely no love in the moment. I have to stop screaming at this poor little boy. He does not deserve to be treated like this. He just couldn't sleep and his mama freaked out on him. It so isn't his fault, but I totally took it out on him. I am hating myself right now. So sorry for such a downer post or three, but I just have about ten tons of mama guilt right now. I don't even feel like I deserve to go snuggle with him tonight.









Oh hun, a tv and some videos are not the end of the world









You NEED sleep. You BOTH need you to be sane. Get a tv. Get some videos that you can be okay with. Use them.

Hang in there. Go snuggle your precious little boy while he's all sleepy and angelic looking. It makes the morning easier.

-Angela


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I am so sorry. I have a three year old who has never been a great sleeper and I've spent many many nights just sobbing because I was SO TIRED. It made me SO ANGRY that I couldn't sleep at all till she would sleep and then she wouldn't sleep long enough for me to get any. I didn't feel human. I understand. Sleep deprevation is used as torture for a reason.

I think you have to decide what you can live with. Advice comes in two kinds - do whatever your child wants, his wants are clearly needs and you just have to suck it up. Or pick a method and stick to it. I think that there is something in between...decide what you can live with, stick to it as much as possible, be ready to abandon ship if necessary, even if only temporarily.

For my daughter, I could not go the CIO route, nor could I let her drive us all to exhaustion. I picked a kind of schedule/routine based on how her good days went and tried to plan around that. Bedtime and the lead up to it are golden and no one gets in the way. Sometimes it just isn't working and I give up, let her play on the floor. I do NOT play with her, turn up the lights, or make it exciting. If she wants to be awake, she can be awake while I pretend to read, because goodness knows I can't actually focus my eyes and read for real. In the beginning, she could not sleep with us in the room and had to have loud white noise. At nearly three, she's back in the bed with us part of the night. I am flexable. If something off the wall our unexcpeted presents itself and works, I am happy to go with it.

She always needs good food, plenty of my time during the day (not ALL day, but a good amount of time where I am focused on just her), and plenty of time outside being wild with no "nos." Those help tremendously.

She always needs a boring evening. After playing outside and dinner, she gets a bath. A snack is offered, a drink is offered (that way I know she's not hungry or thirsty if she tries to stall), teeth are brushed, diaper is changed. The lights are low, the tv is boring (she always watches one Little Bear. It is the MOST BORING SHOW in the world and it works for her, go figure), mom and dad sit around being boring and quiet. Boring, boring, boring. When Little Bear is over, it is bedtime. I rock, sing three songs, and she's usually out by the third. No doubt now that I think I have it all figured out, it will all come to a screetching halt tomorrow and I'll have to figure something else out. You have to find what works for you. I picked the LB show as the very last thing because it's just so low key and it has a definite end. Also, from dinner time on I repeat, "remember, it's bath, snack, Little Bear" and then bed, then I tell her "remember, snack, Little Bear, bed" over and over. Little Bear has three segments. After each one I say, two more, one more, last one, etc.

For about a week I was just hardcore. LB was over, I rocked, I did songs, I put her in her bed (she still can not go to sleep in our bed, she just won't). If she popped up, I said nothing, rocked again, sang again, put her in her bed asleep. I probably sang those three songs a lot more, but I put her down sleeping. Now if I put her down and she wakes up, she just rolls over and goes to sleep. She gets it. She knows it's bedtime. When she wakes in the night, I put her in bed with me and she's out.

Every now and then she'll have a night where she just will NOT settle down and I get just beside myself because I'm thinking...are we going backwards? Am I going to have to start all over and go back to two broken hours a night? I can't do that! And then I freak out! So I put her back in front of Little Bear, start telling her it's almost bedtime, and start over. As many times as it takes.

The hard part is not looking upset, not interacting but not being cold, and not encouraging her. Suddenly Ms. Personality wants to tell jokes and sing songs and as much as it's cute, it'll be a whole lot cuter tomorrow after I've had some sleep, y'know?

So all this, if you've read it, to say I know it sucks. I know you're tired. I know that being told to suck it up, he's not ready, whatever is just hard to hear. You do count too, you do have needs and sleep is a NEED, make no mistake. Figure out what you can live with, work on a routine, and give it at least a week. Promise yourself you'll stay calm, give yourself a break. Hope for the best. And if you have ANYONE who can "babysit" while you nap, make that happen.

Hugs, hugs, hugs!!!

ETA about the tv thing? Yeah, I was so never letting my daughter watch tv till she was at least five. Where that came from, I don't know. But I'm thinking a little commercial free tv is a price I'm willing to pay for some sleep. Also, the wonder of a toddler is that you can find even one thing you don't mind them watching, they'll watch it over and over (for boring, might I suggest my good friend Little Bear or perhaps Oswald? Which is even MORE boring than LB?). Just after Christmas you should be able to find a portable DVD player super cheap.

Also, I don't know where you live but I hope you can find some support soon. Try a Mom's group, a church group, the Tribes section of MDC, SOMETHING. Everyone needs a break.


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## minsca (Jun 25, 2007)

s mama. It is so hard when you are sleep deprived yourself. I agree with a pp.... it sounds like he is over tired and that is the reason he isn't going down smoothly. He sounds like he needs more naps and perhaps an earlier bed time. Do you know his queues for being tired? When my girls start getting over excited and jumping all over the place (more then what they usually do) I know it is time for a nap or bedtime. I'm flexible with both and go with their queues. It does end up that for dd1 she has a nap around 12 or 1 for a couple hrs and then goes to sleep at night at around 7. DD2 varies between 1 and 2 naps. The first one is usually at 9 or 10 and the second one between 1-2. She goes to bed at night at around 6:30. They both sleep till 6.
I had problems with sleeping with dd1 before she was one. I bought the No Cry Sleep Solution... started putting her to bed really early. And honestly within a month she was sleeping through the night without me having to night wean. It was heaven! I started using the techniques early with dd2 and haven't had a problem with her.
Over Christmas dd1 was not getting her naps and going to bed "late" (ie 9pm and sometimes 10pm). After a week of that, she then stayed awake until 4 pm. Her little legs couldn't stop moving, she was bouncing all over the place, loud, but very happy. Finally after her 3rd feeding and gentle persuasion that it really was time to sleep, and the billionith song, she fell asleep. She has been trying to catch up on the sleep ever since. Long 3 hr naps and asleep by 6.
Anyways that is my long two cents worth, basically telling you what you probably already know... your ds needs to get more sleep. Buy No Cry Sleep Solution and try it before buying any stimulation like a TV.


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## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm a single mom of a 4 yo terrible sleeper.

I have given up on trying to put her to sleep as of late. I sleep horrible as it is (sleep disorder) and some nights it takes 2 minutes to put her to bed, sometimes it takes 3+ HOURS. Lately, I just let her fall asleep on her own. As in, she stays up with me watching tv, etc until she conks out and then I carry her in to bed.

Two nights ago, she was up until 1 AM and didn't wake up the next day until nearly 11 AM. Last night, she didn't go to bed until 11 PM and was up this morning around 930 AM. It's currently 10:20 and she's wide awake. She has not had a nap the last two days. (OOO! She just yawned!!)

I'm at my wits end with bed time, so this is the least frustrating to deal with.

I hear ya on the "alone time" after they go to bed. I NEED it to function!


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## Lizafava (Nov 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I don't get many breaks. Maybe an hour or two a month if it is a good month. It really is so freaking hard.

As much as I hate the idea, I think I may start looking for a tv and a dvd player to break out for times like this. I am so anti-tv/plugging kids in, but I can't be this mama. I can't be the mama who looks down at her child and feel absolutely no love in the moment. I have to stop screaming at this poor little boy. He does not deserve to be treated like this. He just couldn't sleep and his mama freaked out on him. It so isn't his fault, but I totally took it out on him. I am hating myself right now. So sorry for such a downer post or three, but I just have about ten tons of mama guilt right now. I don't even feel like I deserve to go snuggle with him tonight.









Oh man. I am not a single mama, so I won't pretend to know how difficult this is for you. I did/do have one of the worst sleepers ever. Maybe almost as bad as yours. I think I have some PTSD from almost 2 years of what you are describing. I can relate to that rage.

At any rate, I went ahead and night weaned him. I want to echo another poster that there are ways to do it gently and kindly. It seems many kids have a period in the second half of their second year where its easier. For us, it was 18 months. Nights got better after nightweaning - much better. I won't lie and say they were suddenly great - we are still no where near sleeping through the night and he's 3 - but I was able to get better sleep and regain some sanity. We saw immediate improvements in the hours between like 8 and 10. So I was able to be alone, finally.

And I use the TV sometimes too when DP is out of town or unavailable. Alone time is so important, and the TV is okay sometimes. Do what you need to do to keep yourself sane and get rest.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

I read through most of the posts but not all but one thing jumps out at me - do you think possibly your DS is anemic? I get HORRIBLE restless legs when I am anemic. I have for as long as I can remember (all through childhood) and it always hits me right as I am almost asleep. It's really frustrating - I'll be so close to sleep and then I just have to move. Anyway, it kind of sounds like the same thing with your DS. Thought I would throw it out there just in case.


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## lizw (Apr 16, 2008)

Our toddlers are the same age and one thing I have noticed about mine is that the less amount of sleep she gets, the harder it becomes for her to go to sleep at night and stay asleep. For example, she missed her 2 hour afternoon nap on Christmas Day because of the excitement and traveling that day. I thought she would conch out for the evening pretty early but she was so overtired she had a hard time getting to sleep and was very restless all night long. Crying out and thrashing around. So maybe that is what is going on?? I nightweaned a few months ago for the very same reason you are trying and it was tough at first but now she sleeps about 12 hours straight which is so wonderful compared to the nursing every hour or two all night long that she was doing. That was habit for her but now that we have stopped she is a new child- sleep does so much for us and them! I hope you can find something that works for both of you! I am thinking of you!


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## vivvysue (Feb 18, 2007)

wow that was a lot to get through







i sure feel for you mama. my son who is now eleven was very similar to yours. i found when i kept a journal of what was going on that on days where we had been really busy or out and seen a lot of stuff were the nights that he had the hardest time to get to, or stay asleep. we used rescue remedy, for me and for him and it helped... not a lot but some nights it was enough. i also used to lay with him and shea his back and head and think soft peaceful thoughts about good sleep and staying asleep and feeling no fear or stress or anxiety and sent him those thoughts and energy as we lay together till he slept every night. kind of like yoga relaxation techniques but i never said anything aloud just sent him the thoughts from my head nto my hands as they stroked him. i also noticed that when i was stressed or upset or had had a particularly eventful day he really picked up on that and sort of vibed out on my energy.. even if it had been good stress or happy times it caused him to have a real hard night or two as a result. he just seemed to be a real sensitive boy and picked up on energies right out of the air and it always, without fail affected his sleeping.
cio was not an option and he was weaned long before the trouble ended, but it did end







: another mama here said exactly what i was thinking when she said that sometimes they need to learn to manage it for themselves and it is sooooo true, but holy moly hard on a mama. dont beat yourself up about tv or dvd's for nightime soothing, or anything else that you can think of as you try to get it down to something that works for both of you.
try to remember that there are no real rules to being a mama, except to love them and hope for the best







so you try anything you need to and when they work be thankful







: and when they dont the next night... remember to breathe and try something else. sleep dep is the hardest thing when dealing with lo's... it seems to just suck it out of you, your joy in being a mama, the pleasure you feel when you look at your lo... just everything seems grey and dead when you arent rested. and two or three years will do that to anyone even the most loving devoted mama out there. and there is so much pressure to do this or do that or your child should be doing this or that... try to let go of the should be's and the 'your ds should be' or 'shouldnt be's' and do what you need to do in the here and now.
can you sleep if he isnt sleeping? like in his room where he is safe? just shut the door and let him be up doing his thing while you get the rest you need. i had to do that a lot with my son, he just toddled about and played and sang etc and i got a least a bit of rest, even if it wasnt sleep sleep, it was something.
ap is a great thing, but not always the easiest when it comes to being a gentle patient mama...especially on no sleep and having no one there to lean on but yourself. hang in there, you are really doing a great job even if it doesnt feel like it right now. and things will settle eventually, truly they will.
i'll hunt down those journals and see if i can find anything else that worked for us, i hope you had a better night tonight and that things smooth out soon for you







:

v


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

Not sure if this is helpful - but my Mum said the key to my brother and I sleeping well was to make us totally physically exhausted each day.

We were in daycare 3 days a week so that helped - as it's non-stop go all day long there, but on the other days it was walks in the park, swimming, running around the garden, constantly outside and using up the energy inside our little bodies.

My nephew is 16 months and he goes to the park, once in the morning, again in the afternoon. By the end of each visit, he is so tired his arms and legs are trembling and he is panting with exhaustion. He sleeps 7 to 7.

Just thought I'd mention it, in case more physical exercise might be the key to a good night's sleep.

My DD is 8 months now and wakes endlessly through the night for boob, but I have high hopes for when she is walking and able to get really tired physically, here's hoping!


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

Oh yes, and the TV, dont' feel so bad. Studies have shown 20 minutes a day is even good for a baby.

I now have one programme DD watches every day, it is 30 minutes long! Oops! But it is part of the bedtime routine and now she knows the characters, the music and it's a different little story every day. I pop her down in front of it and some days I'll get 10 minutes alone, other days the full 30 minutes. This is great, so I can eat my dinner before starting to put her to bed and read a newspaper and switch off, just for a few minutes after what often feels like a very long day. It also reinforces the routine and she enjoys the programme so much I can't think it's doing anything bad for her.

I had to spend a few weeks with her infront of the tele, laughing and enjoying the programme with her too, then I had my dinner infront of the tele with her and now I can put her down and have dinner in the kitchen next door and read the paper. It kind of works for us....

Anyway, you could choose anytime of the day to use the tele, but I think it's nice and more likely to give you time-out if it's a programme he sees every day at the same time and starts to learn to love it.


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## Selesai (Oct 26, 2005)

Are you anywhere near Baltimore?


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Thank-You so much for all of the responses. It definitely wasn't an easy night after he finally conked out, but we did sleep in until 9am, which is the latest he has ever slept. I just feel like I have an emotional hangover today. He is his usually happy self, and seems no worse for the wear, thankfully. Not that that is an excuse for my behavior, but he seems fine today, and for that, I am thankful.

I am really not entirely sure what my plan is going to be, but I have to get the sleep deprivation under control. I also need to get more breaks. I hate the idea of a tv as a babysitter, but I think I am going to try to find one for when I am as desperate as I was last night.

I do have a copy of the no cry sleep solution, I will have to dig that out again. I am not sure if it will work or not with him. He is such a strong willed kid. (Takes after mama







) I have to try something though. Freaking out on him regularly is not an option.

*sigh* Tell me someday I will miss these days...

ETA: Selasai, I am not near Baltimore. I am up in Vermont.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlicesMama* 
Not sure if this is helpful - but my Mum said the key to my brother and I sleeping well was to make us totally physically exhausted each day.

We were in daycare 3 days a week so that helped - as it's non-stop go all day long there, but on the other days it was walks in the park, swimming, running around the garden, constantly outside and using up the energy inside our little bodies.

My nephew is 16 months and he goes to the park, once in the morning, again in the afternoon. By the end of each visit, he is so tired his arms and legs are trembling and he is panting with exhaustion. He sleeps 7 to 7.

Just thought I'd mention it, in case more physical exercise might be the key to a good night's sleep.

My DD is 8 months now and wakes endlessly through the night for boob, but I have high hopes for when she is walking and able to get really tired physically, here's hoping!

I do try to tire him out, but even that doesn't always work. Sometimes he can be on the go all day, and conk out at night, and sometimes he can have a very low key day and again fall asleep at a reasonable hour and sleep well all night. He can also have either of those type of days and be wired all day long. There just doesn't seem to be any pattern to it at all.

To the poster who suggested that he may be anemic, his iron levels have always bean great, and I have never been anemic in my life, so I am assuming that he is ok, but I can't be positive. He doesn't have a ped appointment until March, and I am not really wanting to make one, but I will keep that in mind if this keeps up.

AlicesMama, I have read exactly the opposite that tv before the age of two can actually harm them, so I have been very militant with him not watching any that I can help. He does see it occasionally at my parent's house, but that is about once every few months for an afternoon. I am definitely at the point that I am willing to toss that out the window though. If i could get me a half hour in the evening where I don't have to be having him crawling all over me screaming in my face, hitting me and begging me to read another hundred books, I would definitely do it. I just hate that I am not enjoying being his mama right now. I just need a break.

Ok, so sorry about all of the crazy posts. Off to take this little man down to our town's First Night Celebration. I have no idea if it will tire him out or wire him back up, lets hope for the first...


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## koalove (Apr 18, 2007)

oh mama hang i there. my ds was EXACTY ike that. he still wakes at night and he is amost 4. it does get better. night weaning my son was really really hepful. i was also a single mom and had no help with this so basicaly, you just suffer through alot of crying for a while. i made sure to wear a shirt or 2 so he couldnt claw his way in at night. when he woke, i offered him a cup of milk which of course was not good enough at first but then he just accepted it. he cried furiously at first but i just tried to lay there and comfort him and i tried to sleep. sometimes he cried for a few hours but i felt ok about it because my sleep deprivation was ruining our relationship. i felt very much like you do. i felt like i wanted to push him away if he even looked at my breasts. in the end it was better for us. stick to it. perhaps try giving him a little watered down milk or something at night instead of water and try snuggling up and feeding it to him~ similar to nursing. this time will pass, i promise.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Kim... wow.





















I am so sorry you are going through such a rough spot. It is not easy, that is for sure. It sounds to me like your child, much like mine, can be described as "high needs," and also "horrible sleeper." I don't know why evolution did this to us, but it did. You'd think evolution would know parents need more sleep to raise better kids, right? Maybe in another thousand years...!

Meanwhile, though. First of all, please just first... FORGIVE YOURSELF. No one is perfect. Your child doesn't need you to be perfect. He does need to see that when you make a mistake, you apologize, own it, and try to be better... HE isn't perfect, and won't be, so that's something he needs to learn. You are not the only one to throw your kid in the bed. Hello! Me too. That doesn't make it right, and it's not something I'm proud of; I'm always working on my anger issues, which are definitely exacerbated by lack of sleep and high needs kid.

Girl... get a tv, stat. Or even just put a little video on your PC for him to watch occassionally. Give yourself five minutes. Or more. Don't feel guilty. Your kid will still sparkle, I promise.

As for the sleeping; what I have found with my daughter is that when she isn't going to sleep, she just isn't. It sucks, it is horrible, and we go through HORRIBLE phases where she won't go to sleep until 2 or 3 am no matter what we do, and we have tried it ALL. One night last week my husband and I both fell asleep with her in the bed, and she was WIDE AWAKE FOR TWO HOURS. She was just *not* going to sleep, no matter what. (She kept waking me up, and finally I got up with her. What *can* you do, you know?) Of course with a normal child, if they stay up later, they get up later. Not so with mine, nor yours from what you describe.

It's horrible.

It sucks.

You are entitled to be angry and furious and go in the bathroom and shut the door and curse under your breath and cry if you need to.

I'm not sure if there is anything to be done other than get through it by whatever means necessary, but...

First if you want to try CIO, maybe try letting him cry with you next to him in bed. That way you don't have to keep putting him back in the bed, at least. That way he isn't alone, at least for a while. It sounds like you have tried that before, and one thing I will say is that from parents who HAVE done CIO with success... most of them have to do it again! Don't let them fool you about how perfect their kids are. Kids are developing so fast and going through so many changes, their sleep patterns go all wonky no matter what parenting style you use.

Second, you mentioned that he fell asleep on your back. Frequently if my daughter won't or can't fall asleep in the bed, I put her on my back and vacuum. It works about 80% of the time. Like I said, if she is not going to sleep, she just isn't... but she is the kind of child who gets herself all wound up and then cannot relax, so actually "swaddling" her in a carrier, holding her close, the motion and sound all together, kind of forces her to and usually within 20 minutes she is asleep. It also gives me a break from the endless trying to get her to lie down and sleep thing... and is frequently less stressful for me to do than just lay there in bed with her. It's really something to try.

Finally I just want to say... you did not do this. It is not your "fault." This is just your child, the way your child is, and no matter what, this is how they would be. Some kids are good sleepers, some aren't, period. Unlucky, but NOT YOUR FAULT.

I just wanted to say that because I know that frequently I want to blame myself, and then I talk to other parents and am like... "OH."

Here's an anecdote to hopefully make you feel... well, a little bit more resolved about what you are choosing to do. A mom at our preschool told me she didn't get any sleep one night because her daughter (then about 23 months old) was screaming in her crib... for THREE HOURS... well three hours before the mom finally fell asleep. She indicated that this was a frequent occurrance but she refused to go in because then her daughter would "win."







Horrible. For some children that just doesn't work, no matter how strong-willed you try to be about it!!!! What's the point of putting a child like that through that agony? No one wins then.

Love yourself, love your child, as best you can, and don't worry if it doesn't look perfect to anyone else.


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## JennaW (Oct 11, 2007)

Forgive me, I don't have time to read all of the posts but did read most of PP's posts.

Also, feel free to take my ideas with a grain of salt as I don't have a toddler.

Okay, so here is my idea.

Is there any way to make this about *YOUR* sleep and not DS's sleep? For example, can you instill a bed time routine for yourself? Maybe brush your teeth, put on jammies, read a magazine and then say "Okay, time for Mama to go to sleep". Bring DS into your room (I am guessing it is child-proofed, if not, you would need to do that for this to work). Then get in bed and go to sleep, lights out. Tell DS. "Mama is very tired, it is her bed time now and I am going to sleep. I need you to stay in the room with me so I know you are safe." Don't try to make him go to sleep or do anything. Now, obviously, you probably won't be able to sleep if DS is up making a racket. But maybe you can pretend to sleep and if he is being really nosiy you could gently say "Shhh baby, Mama is trying to sleep, remember?"

If things were to go the way I see them going in my head, he would probably put up a huge fuss but then settle down and maybe come cuddle next to you. If you get that TV, maybe you could put that in when you are going to sleep if you want to try that. As for nursing, I would consider getting a special stuffed animal and giving it a name, let's say Fuzzy. Let DS know that once Fuzzy comes out, no more nursing until Fuzzy goes back to his home in the morning. Maybe you guys could decorate a box to be Fuzzy's special home. I would offer to nurse him before you bring Fuzzy out though.

Anyway, just some ideas, HTH in some way. I feel for you Mama, my LO can be a terrible sleeper at times and your brain just goes to a whole different place when you are tired and all you want if for your LO to sleep without being permanently attached to your breast.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Jenna, those are great ideas!

I just vacuumed my awful sleeper down for her nap. I was thinking about you Pumpkin, and just wanted to stop back by here and say... you are a GREAT MOM. I hope you know that.


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

I understand your worry about the TV, I always thought before DD was born that TV was for much later on - like around 5.

But then I was so overwhelmed one day I just stuck her infront of it and she was fascinated. It was most unexpected, I didn't think she'd react to it at all but she did.

I'm afraid since then I've just let her have a bit every day and when we found this nice programme towards the end of the day, I relented on my 'no tele before 5 years old' because it was so nice to have a few minutes to myself!









The tele is never on any other time of the day, just for that 30 minutes every day and it's very gentle. To be honest, she often gets tired towards the end and I always make sure if she starts crying that I come in and sit with her, as I want her to enjoy it, not for it to be something she hates.

Sometimes I have to hold her towards the end if she's really tired, but I nearly always get 10 or 15 minutes to myself at the start which is lovely.

The only other thing is, does your LO like baths? DD used to hate them and it made her totally wired, but now she seems to be relaxing into them a bit, just wondered if you'd tried that one again, as I'd left it out of the routine for a long time, but just had a phase where we started it up again and she seems to find it relaxing now. What winds them up or down seems to change as they get older. Anyway, just a thought...

I should add, I'm not a single Mum, but my DH is never home before 10pm and DD is always in bed by then, so I had to work out the bedtime routine for myself - I've often felt like a single mum as DH works v v v long hours and even on the weekend too so I have to do it all myself.

When implementing the new routine for bed at 7pm, my Mum came round from about 5 to 8pm every day for a few days to help me get her into it. Is there anyone who could help you for a few hours like that?

I guess it's a big ask, but it just means you can keep consistency so much easier if there are two of you there. Before that I had NO routine at all and I do think it's because DH was never around and I was overwhelmed alone by a very high needs child. It's so much harder when you're on your own but it sounds like you're doing a really good job and you should give yourself a big pat on the back from time to time and not be so hard on yourself.


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## Lizafava (Nov 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Finally I just want to say... you did not do this. It is not your "fault." This is just your child, the way your child is, and no matter what, this is how they would be. Some kids are good sleepers, some aren't, period. Unlucky, but NOT YOUR FAULT.

I just wanted to say that because I know that frequently I want to blame myself, and then I talk to other parents and am like... "OH."

That whole post was awesome, but I wanted to quote this part because its just so important. Its just dumb luck.


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## ChocolateNummies (Apr 9, 2007)

When I night weaned my son, I explained that he could have nummies for a few minutes but then we'd have to stop and would just cuddle for him to fall asleep.

He has such an attachment to my nummies I told him he could hold them (my breasts) with his hands when we were done nursing. If he asked for more nursing I'd tell him my nummies were tired.

I also always mentioned that I would be getting up to do things after he fell asleep but that I would be back later to cuddle with him when I was done and to please keep the bed warm for me.

I gradually lessened the amount of time he got to nurse, then started lessening the amount of time he could hold my breasts.

The first two or three days we started this were the hardest and each time I shortened a step, we had a few days of mild upset. If he ever seemed really upset I'd put off the next step a little longer.

I would go back in if he woke up but wouldn't nurse him again til morning. He only got to nurse the first time down. I'd try to first cuddle him/backrub him to sleep but would let him hold my nummies if he seemed to really need it. These times gradually became fewer and further between.

Not sure if any of those ideas would work for you but it worked for us (not necessarily as smoothly as typing it out sounds). I hope you get some much-needed rest and you and your lo find an acceptable night routine.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Thank-You all soooooo much for your replies. You have no idea how much it means to me to read these. I am feeling a bit better tonight and although I am still extremely ashamed of my behavior last night, I know that I can only vow to do better in the future. I can't change what has happened, and he does not seem any worse for the wear.

I just posted a "wanted" ad on my local freecycle for a tv and dvd player. We are pretty low income and a new tv is definitely not in the budget, but maybe it will work. I think I am going to post over in Toddler's for rec's on good low key movies for non-tv watching kids.









I really don't want to do CIO, and I really do believe that it is harmful. I only did it because I was feeling like it was less harmful than what was running through my head at the moment. I was feeling so much like I was ready to hit him that I really felt like putting the baby gate up and letting him cry up there was a much safer option. He actually only cried for about 10 minutes. Granted, I wish that was more like 30 seconds, but it is what it is and it is in the past now. Anyway, I appreciate the story of the child crying for three hours in the crib. I am pretty sure that would be my son if I did do CIO with him. He is such a strong willed kid. I am sure he will be so strong and successful as an adult. I just need to make sure we both make it to that point.









To the above poster recommending "holding" my breasts. I actually have just started this, and he is responding to it pretty well, but it really is almost as painful/irritating as nursing too long. I try to get him to just have his hand flat, but he ends up twiddling as he falls asleep. I will often fall asleep with his hand on my breast and he wakes me up pinching or twisting my nipple without meaning to. It occasionally works, but not always. It is a good thing to remember though.

Prettypixels, thank-you so much for your kindness. It is good to be reminded that he is his own person who just happens to be genetically programmed to not require much sleep at all. It is so hard when I am exhausted to remember that he is not doing this "to me" and I also did not do it "to him". It is just who he is. It does suck, but there is nothing I can do to change who he is.

Well, it is now nearly 9pm, and he is playing strong in the living room. I pretty much have decided to let him go until he says he is tired and wants to go to bed. He had an insanely busy day today, and walked a TON in single digit (F) temps, so I know he SHOULD sleep well. We will see.

Thanks so much again mamas. You are my rock when I am adrift in this messy world of parenthood.

ETA: I posted on freecycle for a tv, and already have an offer of one!







: I am most likely going to go pick it up tomorrow!


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

To the above poster recommending "holding" my breasts. I actually have just started this, and he is responding to it pretty well, but it really is almost as painful/irritating as nursing too long. I try to get him to just have his hand flat, but he ends up twiddling as he falls asleep. I will often fall asleep with his hand on my breast and he wakes me up pinching or twisting my nipple without meaning to. It occasionally works, but not always. It is a good thing to remember though.
I know with my bad sleeper, constant physical contact eventually starts to make me want to crawl out of my skin and run away. Can you find an inexpensive long beaded necklace you could wear at night that he could fiddle with? It might be something soothy to "worry" his hands with and it's something you could redirect him to that's part of you but not YOU so you get a break. If you find something safe (check for ones made FOR children, maybe?) it's something you could possibly eventually let him hold even when you're not wearing.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

I'm so sorry mama. I have a moderately bad sleeper in comparison, and a DH who will help when I am ready to throw her across the room. I can't imagine how hard this is for you.

You are a GREAT mama to do as well as you are considering.

Can you find someone (maybe on Finding My Tribe?) to watch him for a few hours once a week so you can nap? I have done that with DH (one nap on Sunday) and it helps SO much psychologically (I don't think that 2 hours makes or breaks the sleep dep, but it helps a lot to look forward to it).

I have tried the thing an MDC mama posted about at some point of humming (she sang, I think) a verse or two of a lullaby while snuggling DD at night when she wakes. I try this before nursing, but will nurse if it's not working. I never thought it would work, but sometimes it does. I also only try if it's been less than 2 hours (I do fine if she'll sleep in solid 2 hour blocks).

I have a small pillow on the bed that I use to put against her back where my arm usually is when I get out of bed. It helps when she moves and doesn't feel me. Not always, but I know she rolls back onto it and doesn't wake up every time like she does if she rolls flat onto her back (she's usually on her side).

I sleep in a sleep bra that keeps my nipples covered, but allows DD to stroke my breast without twiddling, which also does help some.

I agree with trying a no-leak sippy cup to just see if he's thirsty.

Some days when DD is really active with no down time, she's so wound up she can't relax at night. I love boring activities in the evening after around 5 or so.

If she is up and hyper I will let her be up in the living room, with dim lights, and I sit on the couch and mostly ignore her and read a book. She gets mad, but I refuse to make staying awake late fun for her. I'm trying to make it boring for her so there's less incentive to try to stay awake. We'll see how it goes... I basically only interact with her for safety issues or if she's truly melting down. Mostly she plays until she's exhausted, which can take a while.

I find Motrin works better for teething than Tylenol for us, maybe it's worth a shot?

TV in moderation will not damage your child. A sane mama is more important than a little TV, sweetie. Honestly (and I'm no TV advocate). I'm glad freecycle came through!

I am so very sorry, mama. I wish you rest and peace. I don't think people with good sleepers can ever understand how horrible real sleep deprivation is. (((hug)))


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## treehuggermama (Jan 3, 2007)

Mama! Couldn't help but send hugs your way after reading your posts. I too have been extremely sleep deprived for oh 5 years now with dreadful sleepers and now my littlest man is waking every hour since he started getting his incisors. The other morning I awoke so tired I wanted to vomit and I can definitely relate to being so tired that you aren't the kind of mama you want to be. Hang in there!!


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Yikes- you are supermom no matter what you may feel- just for surviving 2 years and no sleep by yourself and still trying new solutions!!

My friend has a child the same way- she read an article about routine being really important for night sleep in some children. It worked for them!! As soon as they made every thing happen at the same time every day he started consistently sleeping through the night (he was about 18 months). They find he takes a couple days to get over a "no- routine" day- poor sleep etc. Would this work for you to try?


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## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Oye. Oh, Mama, I hear you. I'm not gonna offer you any advice or suggestions, only commiseration. My youngest just never slept. It was a nightmare. Totally unbelievable how little he slept. He was also high needs in every way.

I facilitate a support group for parents of high needs babies/toddlers, and there is one thing that is absolutely universal among the people I've met and talked to: they are ALL afraid they'll hurt the baby. Most often, they have visions of throwing the baby through the window (that was what I most often feared), but there are others. It's an awful, gut-wrenching feeling, and totally, 100% normal. Your response is only an indication of your emotional and physical exhaustion and means nothing at all about anything else.

I just thought I'd share that because guilt so often complicates matters in these situations.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Don't feel alone! I sure did for a long time ( e had two sleep studies, one at 13 monthes and another at 26) He was the SAME way. I would try and night wean every 6 monthes and it ended like what you are doing right now. He would take at LEAST three hours to get down and once he was he was up every 20 -45 min, nurse and scream for at least an hour and repeat that all night. I was lucky to get a total of 4 hours a night for almost three years. RIght around three year mark he has gotten WAY more awesome at night. It got really bad right before it got better and he never really nightweaned until he self weaned all together when I was about 5 monthes preg. Pushing him will make it worse for both I know. I am not a single mom but I might was well should be whenit came to this kinda situation. I found what worked best was to make the night routine the same everysingle night. Dinner at 6, bath by 630/45 books at 7, nursedown and cuddle for however long it took. WE cosleep though. Around that age we were no tv and still are for the most part but we would cuddle on the couch and I would watch hgtv or something until he fell asleep and then he would stay on the couch until I took him to bed with me. I know that might be frowned on here but it was the only thing that worked and we still do that sometimes.
I would rule out any medical reason. We know now that he is on the autism spectrum and that that is why he CAN"T do what is normal when it comes to sleep. Transtions are impossiable for him, day or night. He stopped naps at 8 monthes, would be up until one in the morn all the time, up all night as I mentioned, then up for the day at 5. He has a short circuit in that evertime he hits a new sleep cycle he wakes up fight or flight.
What is daytime behaviour like?
Could he be anemic, that can affect sleep
have you tried calms forte or other herbs?
PM if you need support, I have been there and it is hard!


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

oh and I cryed ALOT! I can remember losing my cool with him and him screaming in one room and my crying in the other. How could I be so angry with someone i loved so much and that was so helpless? It is a terriable cycle.
Here is a link for SPD, I know that that is when we started getting help for e.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Wow, you are awesome to stay as patient as you have! Please don't beat yourself up, sleep deprivation is HELL! Any of us who have been there understand. You are existing on nothing, but you haven't given up, you are still trying to problem solve and make it better. That just shows how much love you have for your little guy and THAT will outshine a few angry sleepless nights









It really isn't your fault. Some sleep and some don't. I have 4 kids. 2 are horrible sleepers, 1 is an AWESOME sleeper, and one is just pretty typical. My eldest only slept 5 hours every 24 hour period for 3 years. Not consecutive hours either. 3 years of less than 3 hours a night of sleep for me (I had to get up really early to deliver papers for much of that time!). I agree with the poster who said it was like PTSD, I don't even know how I functioned toward the end.

The things that helped was NO stimulation at all after 4pm. We are tv-free now, but we weren't then. If I put on a video it absolutely could not go later than that. He needed tons of physical exercise (outdoors preferably, indoor places were too overstimulating for him), but it had to be in the morning or early afternoon. He needed his bath and dinner at about the same time and we had to adhere to a fairly strict bedtime schedule (which was hard because we are not typically schedule people, or at least we weren't then.....7.5 years with him in our lives have changed that by necessity







). This helped him get more sleep, not lots, but more.

My 2nd slept 12 hours a night from birth. This helped me realize that sleep problems are NOT MY FAULT!

My 3rd is a non-sleeper. She is 3 and frequently plays all night while the rest of us sleep. She is a non-sleeper of the overtired/can't sleep variety. One off sleep day and she won't get back to a good sleep rhythm for a week. Exercise, stimulation (or lack of), food, or any of that make no difference. Her poor sleeping is purely due to being too overtired to get well rested leading to the vicious non-sleep cycle. We try to keep her sleep regular though sometimes it is hard.

My 4th sleeps pretty average. Occasional all night nursing binges (usually teething or growth/milestone related). This leads me to once again be reminded that it is NOT MY FAULT!

This is just a wordy way to say that:

1)It is NOT YOUR FAULT

2)all kids (even the non-sleepers) are different, it may help to figure out what happens on days when he sleeps well to see if there is a pattern so you have a better idea of what may help

3)sleep is vital, do what you must to get it. If you do put in a video it seems that mornings (so you can sleep a little later) seems to be tolerated better than late night videos (which have the potential to make things worse)

4)You are doing the best you can in a really, really crappy situation. It really won't last forever. Even if he never sleeps better he will get older and won't NEED you to be there while he can't/won't sleep. Don't give up, you are doing a great job in a tough spot!

Hope something works to get you a little more sleep soon


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennaW* 
Forgive me, I don't have time to read all of the posts but did read most of PP's posts.

Also, feel free to take my ideas with a grain of salt as I don't have a toddler.

Okay, so here is my idea.

Is there any way to make this about *YOUR* sleep and not DS's sleep? For example, can you instill a bed time routine for yourself? Maybe brush your teeth, put on jammies, read a magazine and then say "Okay, time for Mama to go to sleep". Bring DS into your room (I am guessing it is child-proofed, if not, you would need to do that for this to work). Then get in bed and go to sleep, lights out. Tell DS. "Mama is very tired, it is her bed time now and I am going to sleep. I need you to stay in the room with me so I know you are safe." Don't try to make him go to sleep or do anything. Now, obviously, you probably won't be able to sleep if DS is up making a racket. But maybe you can pretend to sleep and if he is being really nosiy you could gently say "Shhh baby, Mama is trying to sleep, remember?"

If things were to go the way I see them going in my head, he would probably put up a huge fuss but then settle down and maybe come cuddle next to you. If you get that TV, maybe you could put that in when you are going to sleep if you want to try that. As for nursing, I would consider getting a special stuffed animal and giving it a name, let's say Fuzzy. Let DS know that once Fuzzy comes out, no more nursing until Fuzzy goes back to his home in the morning. Maybe you guys could decorate a box to be Fuzzy's special home. I would offer to nurse him before you bring Fuzzy out though.

Anyway, just some ideas, HTH in some way. I feel for you Mama, my LO can be a terrible sleeper at times and your brain just goes to a whole different place when you are tired and all you want if for your LO to sleep without being permanently attached to your breast.

This is what I do (single mom with 18 month old). It works very well for us, most of the time. I'm extremely laxed....and extremely tired. I've made the bedroom as safe I can--outlets covered, nothing plugged in, she can't climb and fall through window, bedroom door closed (will install a chain lock soon, she's starting to understand how to open the door) etc. I keep lots of fun toys in there and switch them out every so often.

We still co sleep and our matress is on the floor. After working a 16 hour shift and after being awake for over 24 hours....there comes a point where I cannot stay awake any longer. I lay down and I go to sleep. I've been known to sleep through her whining many times. I have to do what I have to do. I will wake up for the "something's wrong cry". But my brain blocks out the whining. Sometimes she'll join me and nap, other times she'll play or jump on me (I sleep through that too. I'm a freaking tired mama!). Sometimes she just whines and reluctantly plays with something. I don't care what anyone thinks about this system. It's the only thing I can do. It's worked for 12 months (crawling stage-present) and no harm done.

I have also had my dark moments with dd. There are moments I regret so badly...but all I can do is move forward. There were at least 2 times I SCREAMED at her because I was ready to loose my mind from lack of sleep. So loud that anyone outside could have heard me...and my windows were closed. Screaming shut her up and I went to sleep. I feel freaking horrible about that. You are not alone! It sucks...but we have to learn from it and move forward and find a better system that works for us. I've since found a better system--I load up on pills and coffee (I'm such a great role model, I know) and stay up for 30-35 hours straight and I wait until she's exhausted so I can get a 3 hour nap with her. Did that today. Working midnights now...and I'm so tired, I'm dizzy.

Other times, it's not safe for me to stay awake (balance off, falling, not coherent, or accidentally falling asleep and letting her have the entire house to play in) and I'm forced to sleep through her whining and let my brain shut her out. I have to. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. YOU, mama. You have to get sleep. You have to. Get that tv and put it in your bedroom or his bedroom and let him watch some tv. Do whatever you can to get you some sleep.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I think I am going to post over in Toddler's for rec's on good low key movies for non-tv watching kids.









I don't let dd watch much tv, but my gramma does while I'm working. My gramma has dd hooked on this series called "Bed Bugs" www.mybedbugs.com They are these annoying little things that teach kids about "stuff"...and sing and dance, the usual. But my dd is obsessed with these things. She only gets them at gramma's house though--it's special like that


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree with the PP that said to make it about your sleep. Thats one of the only ways I can get DD1 to go to sleep. Ill get ready for bed, read to her, turn off the lights and tell her Im going to sleep. Within half an hour she will be laid down asleep next to me. If I tried to fight her or make her go to sleep it would take hours.








Im sorry your DS isn't sleeping, it can be really hard.


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## triple07 (Feb 2, 2008)

Lots of hugs mama and you are not a bad mom either, although I know exactally how you feel. This is how DS has been with me the past couple nights, since DS2 came home from the hospital. I hope things work out for you (and me lol)


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

So, hooray for Freecycle! I am going to pick up a tv and dvd player from a next door neighbor at 5 tonight. She literally lives about two houses over and has both tv an dvd. I don't think many stores that sell dvd's are open today, but I think we will be shopping for his new "give mama some peace" dvd tomorrow.

Also, last night was great. I know it always swings back and forth for him but my approach was much different. I took him upstairs to get his pj's on, brush teeth and change his dipe and then brought him back downstairs without nursing or even really getting into bed. He got down on the floor and played pretty hard for an hour or so and finally around 9:15, he climbed up into my lap, asked to nurse and conked out within about 15 minutes. I let him lay there for another 10 minutes or so and then brought him up to bed. It was easy, but I worry that I am somehow doing something wrong by letting him fall asleep on the couch beside me in the evening. I guess whatever works. I still worry though.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
Also, last night was great. I know it always swings back and forth for him but my approach was much different. I took him upstairs to get his pj's on, brush teeth and change his dipe and then brought him back downstairs without nursing or even really getting into bed. He got down on the floor and played pretty hard for an hour or so and finally around 9:15, he climbed up into my lap, asked to nurse and conked out within about 15 minutes. I let him lay there for another 10 minutes or so and then brought him up to bed. It was easy, but I worry that I am somehow doing something wrong by letting him fall asleep on the couch beside me in the evening. I guess whatever works. I still worry though.

When Alexander was still nursing, I often let him fall asleep on my lap. At 3, he tells us he's tired and we put him in his bed and scratch or rub his back for about 10 minutes, then he is out. He does wake up between 5 and 9 am usually to use the bathroom and climbs in bed with us, but that's okay with us. My point is that letting him fall asleep by you on the couch doesn't ruin his sleep routine for life.









I let Jack fall asleep nursing on my lap every day.

I'm glad last night was less stressful.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 

Also, last night was great. I know it always swings back and forth for him but my approach was much different. I took him upstairs to get his pj's on, brush teeth and change his dipe and then brought him back downstairs without nursing or even really getting into bed. He got down on the floor and played pretty hard for an hour or so and finally around 9:15, he climbed up into my lap, asked to nurse and conked out within about 15 minutes. I let him lay there for another 10 minutes or so and then brought him up to bed. It was easy, but I worry that I am somehow doing something wrong by letting him fall asleep on the couch beside me in the evening. I guess whatever works. I still worry though.

Whatever works!!! What works today might not tomorrow or a week or a month from now, so just do whatever works today. We walked DD around the block in the stroller for like 3 months at one point because it was the ONLY thing that worked. Luckily she let me rock her to sleep again before it got too cold.


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## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

This thread has been really therapeutic for me!







I've been losing a grip on my self-control/sanity...screaming at my child because I can't take the sleeplessness and the abuse (biting nipples, back, shoulders). It makes me feel like a monster or worse. My child is a happy kid and I think that's why we don't sleep at night! He just wants constant closeness to mommy. Unfortunately mommy is not a human pacifier with no needs of her own.

Anyhow, I'm taking in all the advice and will be making changes as soon as DS gets over his cold completely.

For the OP, I just have waves of compassion for you and thank you for letting me share your journey.

The only thing I haven't seen mentioned (although I probably missed it) is making sure baby is tanked up on milk during the day. That's one area where we need to make an extra effort. You know how these "curious georges" are...to engrossed in life to slow down and nurse.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
So, hooray for Freecycle! I am going to pick up a tv and dvd player from a next door neighbor at 5 tonight. She literally lives about two houses over and has both tv an dvd. I don't think many stores that sell dvd's are open today, but I think we will be shopping for his new "give mama some peace" dvd tomorrow.

Also, last night was great. I know it always swings back and forth for him but my approach was much different. I took him upstairs to get his pj's on, brush teeth and change his dipe and then brought him back downstairs without nursing or even really getting into bed. He got down on the floor and played pretty hard for an hour or so and finally around 9:15, he climbed up into my lap, asked to nurse and conked out within about 15 minutes. I let him lay there for another 10 minutes or so and then brought him up to bed. It was easy, but I worry that I am somehow doing something wrong by letting him fall asleep on the couch beside me in the evening. I guess whatever works. I still worry though.

that was and still is what we do most the time. I know it might be frowned on but until you have lived a night and day in this house they have NO idea! We enjoy it and if he does it until he is ten I don't care! He won't forever adn somepeople do sleep better when they fall asleep to the tv, I know I did for a long time and I grew up with out tv.


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