# S/O 5 year old NOT harnessed?



## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Seems like I"m the only one. Without starting the mommy wars, is there anyone else out there not harnessing their 5 y/o? My dd is small, 36 pounds and 46 inches. She's in a turbo booster.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

My 5.5 year old isn't in a harness either. She's 47inches, 46lbs and in a Nautilus without the harness.

She still fits in the harness, but can't undo or do it up and I just couldn't handle having to buckle three kids in their carseats when our new son was born. She sits perfectly 100% though so it works out well.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

i don't have a 5 year old. Not to scare you... but a person locally had her 45 lb 5 yr old in a booster and got in an accident - car rolled over, 5 year old was ejected from the car and they found him in a snowbank - he survived, but was in the PICU for a while...

that story scares the







out of me and though I'd been planning to keep my kids in a 5 pt harness anyway, there's no chance of not doing that, now. I'm also considering turning my kids back to rear facing...


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Chances are good that if a 45# child was ejected from a booster, there was misuse involved. 45# is a fine weight to use a booster. But not all 5yos can use boosters properly. I would speculate that ejection was due to a user failure and not a method failure.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I replied on the other thread, but it won't be long until my 5 yo is too tall for his Apex. He sits fine in a booster, so it is not worth it to me to get a new seat with a higher top harness slot. He recently turned 5, so I'm sure he'll still be 5 when we switch full-time.

My now 7 yo I believe switched to a booster before his 6th birthday. I have tall kiddos, and I agree that it's a PITA when you have numerous kids to buckle up.

Harness vs boosters is not such a big deal to me compared to rear-facing vs forward-facing (assuming the child fits and sits correctly).


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

NO ONE I know who has a 5 year old is still using a harness. NO ONE. I think it is very, very common for 5 year olds to be in boosters.

I'm not there yet so unsure what decision we will make.


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## JenJMP (Aug 8, 2005)

For some reason, I have the 40# weight in my head for switching to a booster.
I'm sure there are some carseat safety techs that can give you more research-based info.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

My 5yo is about 41-42lbs. He's been in a turbobooster since he was a little over 4 and proved to me he could sit properly. He was VERY motivated to not be in a harness. But, I do think he was a rare 4yo who would sit properly. My 2nd is really squirmy, and I think he'll be harnessed longer, but tiem will tell.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

the turbobooster says 30#.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

My dd was in a booster at 5yo in two of our three vehicles. She outgrew the 5-pt. harness limits on the convertible seats in two cars at around 5yo and we are still using them as boosters (she's 8). We had one Marathon and she stayed in that until it expired (that was at around 6 yo). She's never had a problem staying put in a booster and I always check to make sure she's snugly and securely buckled.

It's not safe to keep a child harnessed beyond the limits of the seat. If they've outgrown the harness, then the booster is safer.

If the seat is certified for a height and weight as a booster, then properly used, it is safe. If kids get ejected from cars, they weren't properly restrained. End of story.


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
NO ONE I know who has a 5 year old is still using a harness. NO ONE. I think it is very, very common for 5 year olds to be in boosters.

I'm not there yet so unsure what decision we will make.











Most people I know aren't even using boosters at all. Some let their 5yos ride in the front seat. I try not to think about it or else it keeps me up at night.

I live in a province where child seats are required until 40lbs OR age 6 with no booster laws. Its awful. I've written to government officials about it, and only got PFO letters in return.

ETA: We aren't there yet either, but I am not sure what we will do at that time, assuming DD is developmentally ready for a booster at that time. There is definitely intelligent debate about which is safer. I think a lot (but certainly not all) 5yos can use a booster properly.


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## sweetcheeks (May 21, 2005)

DS1 was in a HBB at 5. We bought a Sienna and he was over the 48lb LATCH weight limit on his Radian. Radians are notorious for being a PITA to do a seatbelt install in Toyotas so we switched him to a booster, Compass B505, I think. Not sure on the exact model. Now, at 7, he is probably the only kid in his class who still rides in a HBB. Most kids in his class ride in the backless boosters or no boosters at all. I do let him ride in the backless booster for short trips around town.

DD will be 5 in the beginning of June. Laws here state 4 years and 40lbs before a child can use a booster. She's currently 37lbs and she's been told once she turns 5 and as long as she's 40lbs or more, she can switch to a booster. She'll be in a Monterey. I highly doubt she'll be 40lbs by her birthday but once she hits 40lbs and stays there, we'll be switching her. She knows the importance of sitting properly in a booster and her older brother sets a good example for her.


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## OTMomma (Aug 12, 2003)

I think this is the kind of thing that varries by region and state, somewhat dependent on state laws. Here is a link to carseat laws by state:
http://www.elitecarseats.com/custser...=car_seat_laws

I let my oldest switch to a high back booster at age 5 and 40 lbs, she's now the only 7 year old I know that is still using a booster, but she's only about 50 lbs, so not nearly heavy enough to quit using it. I know a lot of people who moved their kids up to boosters earlier than I would have-like age 3.


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## PapayaMom (Sep 6, 2004)

We started booster training my daughter when she was almost 5.5 she was getting close to outgrowing her marathon and so we started her out in my moms car which she rode in several times per week. At around 5.5 we switched her to a booster in my car. I was worried about it but she is very rule focused and takes tremendous care to make sure she is buckled in and riding safely. So far she is happy being in a booster as every single one of her friends is a booster user, it helps her feel more grown up and since she is mature enough to use one properly I feel good about the move too. For what its worth she is 42lbs and 44 inches.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

Do any of you have trouble with your booster users falling asleep in the car and ending up not properly secured?


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I think if kids are still falling asleep frequently on car trips, it's too soon to switch to a booster. Not counting longer stretches in the car for traveling - but if they are of napping age, it seems to young to me.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

My DD1 is 5 1/2 and has a Turbobooster. She's probably about 42 pounds, though, and tall. She does technically fit in the harness of our Radians, so I suppose she could ride harnessed, but I am fairly confident she's safe in the booster.

The Turbobooster we have has a little pad in the headrest, and when DD falls asleep in the far, her head rests on that, so that she stays in the right position in the seatbelt. If she was falling asleep often, or spilling out of the harness when she did sleep, I think I'd rethink the booster and go back to a harness, but honestly she only rarely sleeps in the car anyway.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

My 4 year old who is 50lbs and like 46 inches is in a high back turbo booster. Her sister who is 6 is in a backless booster.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
The Turbobooster we have has a little pad in the headrest, and when DD falls asleep in the far, her head rests on that, so that she stays in the right position in the seatbelt. If she was falling asleep often, or spilling out of the harness when she did sleep, I think I'd rethink the booster and go back to a harness, but honestly she only rarely sleeps in the car anyway.

My 5yo does the same thing when he wants to sleep in the car (which is pretty rare these days). There has only been one instance where he came out of position in the belt while asleep (slumped forward - he was dead tired xmas night) and we stopped and fixed him. If this happened frequently I woudl harness him, but it's not been an issue. He knows to tip his head back when he wants to sleep and then he's fine.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

Of the 11 4-5 yr. olds in my youngest son's preschool class, almost all of them are in boosters-- some backless. He and one other boy are in Radians.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?

Not being snarky at all, I'm just trying to understand the other POV on why someone would deliberately choose to when they know they have other options.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

My oldest will be 5 in July and we'll start booster training her this summer. She'll be going to kindy this fall, and we'll be depending on my mom & my friend for drop off and pickup, and I can't afford to put harnessed seats in their cars for the infrequent use. She won't go to full-time booster use in my car for another year or so.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My DD will probably become too tall to stay harnessed in her Nautilus while she's 5. She's 4.5 right now and has less than 2 inches of torso height left. We'll use the Nautilus as a high backed booster.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?

Not being snarky at all, I'm just trying to understand the other POV on why someone would deliberately choose to when they know they have other options.

There is a school of thought that an appropriately sized child (at least 4 and 40) is safer in a booster and seatbelt than a harness, due to increased neck loads w/a 5 pt.

I will booster my DD at 5 unless she shows unusual immaturity.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?

Not being snarky at all, I'm just trying to understand the other POV on why someone would deliberately choose to when they know they have other options.


I probably wouldn't do it at 5, but my 8yo still fits in the harness of our Nautilus and she rides in a booster. I am quite aware of my options. There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that harnessing is safer than boostering for a child who can use a booster correctly. Both options are very safe, and I pick the one that we prefer.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?

Not being snarky at all, I'm just trying to understand the other POV on why someone would deliberately choose to when they know they have other options.

We switched Bella when Grace was born so that she could buckle unbuckle herself. It was very difficult on me physically to have to buckle/unbuckle 3 kids. She is on the smaller side, and it wasn't a decision made lightly. She sits properly and we also did a transition/training.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Im trying to rear-face straight to booster. My DD is so tiny, with such a small frame. She is 4 years and a month, 31lbs and 38 inches. Ide like her to RF as close to 40lbs as possible and do as little FF harnessing as possible.

We will see where she is next year when she turns 5, but I think she will spend most of this next year RF.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

My 5 year old rides in a harness in my car (where 90% of her rides occur), but a booster seat in DH's, sitters' or friends cars.

Lisa 85 - My DD prefers to ride in the booster seat because she can lean forward and reach things in the pocket of the seat in front of her (where we keep books and art supplies), and can reach things that she drops. She can't do so while harnessed. Also the booster would be more convenient since she sits in the rear seat of our minivan; she does so because the car pool drop-off/pick up order makes such an arrangement easier on our family. But she can't click herself in - I have to climb back to the third row to click her in, which is a pain - especially if you are in the car line at school with a hundred cars behind you waiting on you to unload.

It is also easier to pass along a booster seat for sitters or car pooling, than to have to have a harnessed seat belted into another driver's car.

I let DD ride in the booster for a few days in my car after I took her carseat out to clean it and was slow to put in back in. It was nice to have her be able to get herself in and out without my help. She did fuss when I put her harnessed seat back in, but now seems okay with it again. She has noticed (and pouted) that her school friends ride mostly in booster seats, but happily we have several non-school friends whose five year olds are still in harnessed seats.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeminijad* 
There is a school of thought that an appropriately sized child (at least 4 and 40) is safer in a booster and seatbelt than a harness, due to increased neck loads w/a 5 pt.

I will booster my DD at 5 unless she shows unusual immaturity.

This was my reasoning, as well. In Sweden, the paragon of childhood car safety







, they don't harness forward-facing kids. Children go straight from rear-facing to a booster, at around 4 or 5.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy* 
My DD prefers to ride in the booster seat because she can lean forward and reach things in the pocket of the seat in front of her (where we keep books and art supplies), and can reach things that she drops. S

This would be a good case for extended harnessing. If a child is still leaning out of position, reaching to pick up dropped items, etc, they are too young/immature for a booster.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
This would be a good case for extended harnessing. If a child is still leaning out of position, reaching to pick up dropped items, etc, they are too young/immature for a booster.

Do you pull over everytime you need to reach something that causes you to lean forward? That seems like a broad and excessive statement.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
This would be a good case for extended harnessing. If a child is still leaning out of position, reaching to pick up dropped items, etc, they are too young/immature for a booster.

Then I should put DH in a harness.







My 5 year old sits still in the car better.

Said 5 year old is in a high backed booster using the seat belt at 47 lbs and 42".

Just out of curiosity, since he won't grow of this seat for a very long time, is there a significant difference between low/no back and high back?


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

I think the backless booster is important until they reach the headrest. But hat doesn't provide any side protection. Hmmm


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Here most 5yr olds arent in any carseat or booster (regardless of what the law says)

I would be fine with a 5yr old old in a booster, who sits properly AND is 40+lbs.

There are boosters with 30lb lower limits, but, like with rearfacings vs. forward facing, the minimum isnt the safest choice.






This is a 30lb child and her 40+lb sister, same boosters, same car, one walked away, the other died. A 30lb child has a much greater chance of submarining.

Also - this is helpful for determining weather or not a child is ready to be using a booster instead of a 5pt

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=38893

Levi's seat earfaces to 45lbs (he is 24lbs and almost 3 now), so most likley, he will be go from rearfacing to a booster, at least in secondary vehicles.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I think if kids are still falling asleep frequently on car trips, it's too soon to switch to a booster. Not counting longer stretches in the car for traveling - but if they are of napping age, it seems to young to me.

but what about napping adults









I think I should be in a carseat....the strap of my seatbelt is ALWAYS on my neck and I fall asleep on all long car trips with Dh driving.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaCrystal* 
Do any of you have trouble with your booster users falling asleep in the car and ending up not properly secured?

My daughter hasn't fallen asleep in the car, except on long road trips, since she was 3. Several times a year, we take a 6hr road trip and we will be putting her back into the Regent next time we go. Her brother is currently using that seat and we have 2 extra convertible seats so it won't be a problem to switch them around.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?

Not being snarky at all, I'm just trying to understand the other POV on why someone would deliberately choose to when they know they have other options.

How many children do you have and how many of them are in harnessed seats? Can they do up their seats on their own?

I have three children and am in and out of the car all day long (school!) Buckling three kids in every single time I go anywhere really sucks and my daughter cannot do her own harness and there is no way in hell I'm teaching my three year old (he'd take it as a sign that he's not supposed to be buckled anymore.) Plus my daughter sits perfectly in the booster seat 100% of the time.

A booster seat is a perfectly fine and appropriate seat for a child over 40lbs, over 4 years of age and who can sit in it appropriately every single time.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I have both a 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year old in boosters.

The 5 1/2 year old will be 6 in 2 more months, and she's 44 pounds.
The 4 1/2 year old weighs one pound less.

We make sure the lap belt is properly on their thighs, the shoulder belt properly on their shoulders (they are in high back boosters - Nautiluses), then we retract the seat belts so they are strapped in nice and tightly.

We have had no issues with kids falling asleep and out of the belts.

As for why we'd opt for belts over harnesses, after much consideration and research (if you can call it that) I feel that boosters are just as safe as 5 point harnesses for FFacing kids over 40 pounds. Like another poster said, a 5 point harness puts a HUGE amount of stress only on a child's neck, and no other part of the body is allowed to move with the neck and absorb some of those forces.

And, yeah, Sweden (the "gold standard" in car seat safety) doesn't 5 point harness their kids when they turn from RFacing to FFacing at around 4-5 years old. They go right to boosters.


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## hummingmom (Apr 18, 2008)

DH and I also found the Swedish research convincing. We have a 4.5 year old (~46 lb) and a 6 year old (~42 lb) who are in boosters, and a 2.5 year old and an infant who are RF.

The 4 year old started out in a Nautilus, because we assumed that he wasn't mature enough to sit properly. Then we started letting him use a booster for occasional short trips in DH's car. He behaved remarkably well, so we let him use it full-time. We've had no problems with the arrangement. Which is funny, because this same boy seems incapable of sitting properly at the dining table, and often falls off his chair. (I guess he doesn't have the same motivation in that case, because he knows we don't have a 5 point harnessed high chair big enough to hold him.







)


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

My 45 lb. 5 year old is in a booster.

The way I have always figured it, I should spend less time worrying about what particular kind of car seat she's in and spend more effort eliminating as much car time as possible.


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## mrskingred (Aug 3, 2006)

I haven't read the thread, but the answer is 'yes' if you live in mainland europe. Once they outgrow the harnessed seats here they go into boosters until they are 12 or 150cm. You guys are so lucky to have the option of extended harnessing for taller children.
DS had outgrown his harnessed seat at 3yo and although it converted to a booster he was only 13.5kg, not the min 15kg required by law here. We bought him a german seat with a torso cushion which we can use until he is 18kg, which in his case will probably be around 5yo. His friends all ride around in HBB.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

My 5y9m dd is in a hbb and has been since she was over 40lbs at about 4 years. You can't buy harnessed seats above that except some special needs seats or a couple of the rearfacing swedish seats. I think I will buy a higher weight rearfacing seat when my second dd outgrows her besafe izikid


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

mo way, that's just not safe IMO. my 5 year old weighs 34 lbs and still RF he'll be in a harness as long as he fits in his carseat.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roxswood* 
My 5y9m dd is in a hbb and has been since she was over 40lbs at about 4 years. You can't buy harnessed seats above that except some special needs seats or a couple of the rearfacing swedish seats. I think I will buy a higher weight rearfacing seat when my second dd outgrows her besafe izikid

my son fit in in th nautilus seat ($150 at walmart) harnessed when he was 8 (55 lbs)


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla* 
my son fit in in th nautilus seat ($150 at walmart) harnessed when he was 8 (55 lbs)

Were his shoulders at or _below_ the top harness slot? Because weight isn't the only factor in when a car seat is outgrown....


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"I'm trying to understand the other side, but why would you put a 5 year old in a booster sans harness, particularly if the child still fits in one you already have?"

The same reason you'd put a 4-year-old into a booster sans harness - you consider a harness built into a FFing carseat to be inferior in safety to the seat belt built into the actual CAR.

How nice, that the Swedes agree with me and dh







But honestly, this is a decision that we reached ourselves, simply by comparing the car seat straps to the seatlbelt and saying "WTF? Why would this zero-rebound setup be better? Won't the kid's had snap forward pretty hard? And why are we assuming that these teensy little metal thingies secured to a plastic shell are not going to break?"

DD2 just went from FFing in a Radian into a high-back booster when she hit 40 lbs, and I think she is now safer. DD3 is going right from her RFing TrueFit into a FFing booster seat - years from now. I'm so glad that extended RFing has come to the US!


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## medaroge (Dec 21, 2004)

I guess I just dont understand why you wouldn't keep them as safe as you know is possible. The only reason I have read on this thread is that you dont want to buckle/unbuckle them? I dont get it. I'm confused.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medaroge* 
I guess I just dont understand why you wouldn't keep them as safe as you know is possible. The only reason I have read on this thread is that you dont want to buckle/unbuckle them? I dont get it. I'm confused.









Because we don't know that a harness IS safer, once a child is old enough and mature enough to fit properly in a booster, because of the way the head moves when a FF harnessed child is in a crash. There is no evidence to show that a child of booster size and age is safer in a harness. The example of race-car drivers is often given, because they ride in harnesses, but they also have head restraints that restrict the movement of the head in a crash, and thus protect the neck and spine. Our FF kids don't have that.

There is no question that a RF child is far, far safer than anybody else in the car. But once a child cannot rear-face anymore, and can fit properly in a booster, a booster is a safe choice.

FWIW, my five year old CAN fit in my Radians. Barely; her shoulders are just AT the slots. In a month she'll probably be too tall for the harness slots. But I need the Radians for my other two, who are NOT big enough or mature enough for boosters. There's not a rational reason that I can see why I should buy another Radian to put her in a harness for the month or two that she has left where she'll even fit in it. The Turbobooster is safe for a child of her size and age.

A 34 pound child has no business in a booster, and should be rear-facing. I'll agree wholeheartedly with that. But my DD1 is 43 pounds and nearly four feet tall. I am confident that she's as safe as I can make her.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
We DON'T know that a 5 point harness is safer than a properly used booster. There is no evidence to that.

You didn't read all the posts then.

Lots of us don't believe a 5 point harness is safer, and we mentioned that in our posts....

ITA. If you believe the swedish studies we could turn the pps statement around and say "why would you not put them in a booster and do what is safest." The thing is, we don't know what is safe, it's obvious for a child of appropriate size and maturity that if there is a difference it's not huge, so really both are equally safe as far as we know. And it's a total parental decision as to what you feel is best for your child.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

My dd stopped using a harness when she was four and switched to the booster seat. She had reached the weight and height limit for her booster seat with a harness at that point. I had no idea that there where car seats that harnessed big kids until I read about on here recently.


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## MoonWillow (May 24, 2006)

I have removed a number of posts in this thread for either User Agreement violations or posts that quoted them.

The need to do so again will result in the permanent removal of this thread so _please_ adhere to the UA when posting, specifically the following:

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Thanks


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## 5gifts (Nov 16, 2005)

I wanted to say one quick thing about 5-6 yo kids being ejected from a turbo booster or HBB....I had seen 1 video about a 5yo boy & 8yo girl in turbo boosters - where the girl was fine & the boy was ejected. It made me wonder about the kids buckling themselves in. I have seen my own kids not quite get a seatbelt completely 'seated' - it holds, but isn't completely clicked in.

Last year at my chiro I was talking to a family that was just recovering from an auto accident. The boy - about 6 yo - was not protected by his HBB. He was not ejected from the car & he is ok - but the seat failed and he was hurt somewhat badly. (I think a 10ish yo sister was in a seatbelt and fine) The mom & I were talking about it. The EMT's talked to her about how they do see that often, and talked to her about seats that could harness him. They said the seat belt latch failed, but they could see nothing wrong with it. Her & I talked about how her son might not have pushed it in hard enough to latch.

Right now, I have 2 harness/boosters that harness to 40lb.(both about a year old) My just turned 8yo just came out of the harness about 3-4 months ago. My just turned 5yo needs to come out of the harness any day now. Both would prefer the harness - for some reason - but I just don't see spending lots of $$$ for 2 new seats that could harness longer, since they will only have about an inch more in height even then.

The thing is, they can buckle themselves if in a harness (though I always would check & straighten any twists) and can't always get out themselves....But with the seatbelt They can undue it fine, but can NEVER get it properly buckled. They either can't get it all the way latched or if it is, I have to straighten it/place it/snug it up , properly.

So for me...I would deffinately give those seatbelts a quick once over if the little ones are buckling themselves......because what if that one time it isn't good and latched.....


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medaroge* 
I guess I just dont understand why you wouldn't keep them as safe as you know is possible. The only reason I have read on this thread is that you dont want to buckle/unbuckle them? I dont get it. I'm confused.









No, b/c even techs have chimed in saying that a belt-positioning booster can be just as safe as a 5-pt harness once a child can sit properly. And there are experts that believe that the best way to go is rear-facing into a booster b/c of the way the body moves in a crash - a 5 pt harness allows very little give, and so only the head/neck move forward. In a seat-belt, the impact on your neck/head likely isn't as severe. Not sure if I'm making sense, or necessarily understand it myself, but people don't switch to boosters for convenience purposes without also deciding that the risk isn't increased a ton, yk? Which is why they may switch back to a harnessed seat for long trips - b/c they know their kid will fall asleep and that is when the possibility for increased risk comes into play.


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## medaroge (Dec 21, 2004)

Thank you!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
No, b/c even techs have chimed in saying that a belt-positioning booster can be just as safe as a 5-pt harness once a child can sit properly. And there are experts that believe that the best way to go is rear-facing into a booster b/c of the way the body moves in a crash - a 5 pt harness allows very little give, and so only the head/neck move forward. In a seat-belt, the impact on your neck/head likely isn't as severe. Not sure if I'm making sense, or necessarily understand it myself, but people don't switch to boosters for convenience purposes without also deciding that the risk isn't increased a ton, yk? Which is why they may switch back to a harnessed seat for long trips - b/c they know their kid will fall asleep and that is when the possibility for increased risk comes into play.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Were his shoulders at or _below_ the top harness slot? Because weight isn't the only factor in when a car seat is outgrown....

His shoulders were slightly below the slot (so he probably would have fit in it for awhile) . It wasn't for him, I just wanted to see if he would fit LOL It was for my 4 year old to be put in his dads suburban since a RFing carseat wouldn't install properly in there. actually come to think of it he had just turned 10 when I put him in there, not 8. He's 11.5 now and he's only 4'2. LOL poor things going to be in a booster seat forever


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm with PP who say that we don't know if harnessing or a booster is safer for kids of appropriate size and maturity. My 4 yr. old (42"/42 lbs) is still not mature enough to say sitting still, with the seatbelt tight, not leaning forward to pick things up, etc. at all times. I did choose to move my older son from a harness that still fit (Husky) to a booster at 6.5 because he was mature enough and wanted to use a booster instead. I also let my 4 yr. old use a booster for short trips in friends or relatives cars, with strict admonishments to sit very still.
My 4 yr. old can't buckle a seatbelt but can buckle and unbuckle the harness on his Radian. It's much easier because the harness doesn't retract while he's trying to fasten it. We'll consider a booster for him this fall, as a kindergartener, and again after K if we decide to keep him harnessed.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
Do you pull over everytime you need to reach something that causes you to lean forward? That seems like a broad and excessive statement.

Yes of course I do







One of the big signs of booster readiness is an ability to sit still in the booster. If they can't sit still, you can't trust them to be in position in a crash. Using yourself or your DH as an example really doesn't make your child any safer, it just makes everyone else less safe


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Yes of course I do







One of the big signs of booster readiness is an ability to sit still in the booster. If they can't sit still, you can't trust them to be in position in a crash. Using yourself or your DH as an example really doesn't make your child any safer, it just makes everyone else less safe









Using a booster and then retracting the seatbelt over the child renders them pretty much immobile, like a 5 point harness.

Of course, that's if your seatbelts retract in the first place.

You really pull over or have your hubby pull over every time you drop things? I mean, like, everything from dropping your chapstick to dropping a straw to dropping your kleenex?

How do you _get_ anywhere?







Or maybe I've just got dropitis.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Using a booster and then retracting the seatbelt over the child renders them pretty much immobile, like a 5 point harness.

Of course, that's if your seatbelts retract in the first place.

You really pull over or have your hubby pull over every time you drop things? I mean, like, everything from dropping your chapstick to dropping a straw to dropping your kleenex?

How do you _get_ anywhere?







Or maybe I've just got dropitis.

Locking the seatbelt isn't equal to a 5 pt harness, and it can be pretty uncomfortable for the child, since every time they breathe it gets tighter.

If I'm driving and it's something I can't live without, yes I pull over to pick it up. I can't imagine driving while trying to pick something up off the floor.








I don't lean down to pick up my chapstick or whatever, since that's not something that's super imperative to have right that second. I just wait until we stop.

The "cockpit" of a car is designed so everything is within reach of the driver, so they don't have to lean out of the seatbelt.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I was under the impression (from somebody on MDC) that you weren't supposed to put seatbelts in locking-retractor mode when using a booster.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I was under the impression (from somebody on MDC) that you weren't supposed to put seatbelts in locking-retractor mode when using a booster.

You are correct--most boosters don't allow it, and if you have to lock the belt on your child, it's a very strong indicator that they are not mature enough to sit in one.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Why a booster wouldn't allow it is beyond me. They lock on impact in an accident anyway. The booster knows no difference as to whether the belt was locked beforehand or not.

I got the tip over at a well-known car seat board. And I don't lock them in because they don't sit still, I do it because I think it's safer having them snug. And no, it doesn't tighten every time they breathe.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Locking the seatbelt isn't equal to a 5 pt harness, and it can be pretty uncomfortable for the child, since every time they breathe it gets tighter.

But there is nothing to PROVE that this isn't equal, or even better. You know? There's no evidence.

Quote:

If I'm driving and it's something I can't live without, yes I pull over to pick it up. I can't imagine driving while trying to pick something up off the floor.







I don't lean down to pick up my chapstick or whatever, since that's not something that's super imperative to have right that second. I just wait until we stop.
But I mean when you're _not_ driving, because in those split seconds when you're bending over in the passenger seat to pick something up, an accident could occur, and your body wouldn't be "in position", either.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Just had to pop back in and say my 4.5 year old is now back in a harness.

Due to the wonky set up of our van, the only place we could put him after buying two new seats for the other kids, was in a place where we felt it was best to use the harness. (The other option was the booster with the Nautilus just sitting on the seat. I prefer the Nautilus to be LATCHed and top tethered in booster mode).


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
But there is nothing to PROVE that this isn't equal, or even better. You know? There's no evidence.

But I mean when you're _not_ driving, because in those split seconds when you're bending over in the passenger seat to pick something up, an accident could occur, and your body wouldn't be "in position", either.


Here are some threads with the same debate. Locking the belt on a boostered child isn't something that would make me panic, but the post about how the child prefers to be able to freely pick up toys, and otherwise wriggle around, certainly does







. Either way, locking the belt is certainly not something to rely on, and if your child needs it, bottom line is they need a 5-pt harness.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.p...r+belt+booster

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.p...r+belt+booster

ETA: I forgot to answer the second part of your post. No, I don't lean down whether I am the driver or the passenger. For one, I get really bad motion sickness, and can't take my eyes of the road


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medaroge* 
I guess I just dont understand why you wouldn't keep them as safe as you know is possible. The only reason I have read on this thread is that you dont want to buckle/unbuckle them? I dont get it. I'm confused.









Because harnessing does not equal safer in a 5+ year old kid. That has been very clearly explained. It may be equally safe, it may be less safe, but there is NO evidence to call it "as safe as possible."


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Yes. I'm a CPST. I'm committed to keeping not only my kid, but lots of other kids, "as safe as possible". I spend time and money keeping up with the latest research. For children who can use a booster properly (and for discussion's sake I'll go with 6y and 50#, even though that's pretty conservative), a properly used and properly fitted highbacked booster IS one way to keep the child "as safe as possible".

Some vehicles don't allow locking the seatbelt either, and they do know the difference between a belt locked during a crash or a belt locked before a crash. Check vehicle manuals as well as carseat manuals.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
This was my reasoning, as well. In Sweden, the paragon of childhood car safety







, they don't harness forward-facing kids. Children go straight from rear-facing to a booster, at around 4 or 5.

Hmm, interesting. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on carseat safety but I hadn't heard of these swedish studies. Does anyone have a link, I'd be very interested in reading them!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
How many children do you have and how many of them are in harnessed seats? Can they do up their seats on their own?

I have three children and am in and out of the car all day long (school!) Buckling three kids in every single time I go anywhere really sucks and my daughter cannot do her own harness and there is no way in hell I'm teaching my three year old (he'd take it as a sign that he's not supposed to be buckled anymore.) Plus my daughter sits perfectly in the booster seat 100% of the time.

A booster seat is a perfectly fine and appropriate seat for a child over 40lbs, over 4 years of age and who can sit in it appropriately every single time.

I have two children and yes for the most part they can do up their seats on their own at just turned 3 and 4.5. It takes them awhile and occasionally I have to help the 3 year old. The 4.5 year old can unbuckle herself, the 3 yo cannot. But yes, I have been in your position of bucklingin 3 children. I babysat my friends ds as a baby 50 hours a week and at that time my own children were 8 months and 32 months. None could harness themselves in and only one could climb into their seat.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Some vehicles don't allow locking the seatbelt either, and they do know the difference between a belt locked during a crash or a belt locked before a crash. Check vehicle manuals as well as carseat manuals.

I agree that some vehicles may not allow seat belts to be locked while in use, and I will abide by what my manual says. (Mine makes no mention of it and I actually prefer riding with my own belt retracted).

HOWEVER it still makes no sense because how do we install car seats? By retracting/locking the seat belt. If it isn't safe for a belt to be locked while a person is being restrained by it, then it cannot be safe for a belt to be locked while a person is inside a carseat and the _carseat_ is being restrained by it.

If a locked seat belt affects safety on impact, then I don't want to be using seat belts on my carseats!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

One thing about locking belts on kids in boosters- the big argument for boosters possibly being safer than harnessed seats is ride-down time. By locking the belt, you're eliminating that ride-down time and turning it into a harder stop like a harnessed seat.

Just by sheer physics- I can argue both sides. I'm not convinced either is safer, but I'd sure like to see more studies and data. One additional factor that I take into consideration- there's a page out there with data on ff seats that mentions impacting front seats as a concern for kids in ff seats. The extra mobility provided by a seatbelt over a 5pt harness could be an issue there- allowing an increased chance of impacting the seat in front of them. Hard to say.

I would love to see more real-life and test data.

-Angela


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

That's true to some extent, but also keep in mind that, when the child is moving forward towards the front seats (potentially impacting them), the front seats are also moving forward. So, the chance of the child striking their heads on the front seat isn't greater with a booster than it is with a harnessed seat.

A correctly installed, tightly top tethered FF seat reduces head excursion. However, we know that 70+% of seats are installed and/or used incorrectly. A loose install, coupled with a loose tether (or none), and loose straps on the car seat all increase head excursion. In these "real world" conditions, parents are more likely to use a booster correctly, so this booster is probably a safer option for a child over 5yo, 40 inches, and 40 pounds, simply because there is less to "misuse".


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

ah, if it comes down to misuse then dude, my kid is staying where she is







I am 100% sure of her install in her safeguard, much higher than my % of trust of her to buckle and sit perfectly every time (and she's a good and compliant kid on such things.)

I don't have time to pull the link, but there was a study comparing different installs on ff seats (belt vs. latch specifically) and in actual cars as well as on sleds. Among other things belt installs showed more movement (more belt to stretch than latch) and a higher rate of impact on the forward seats. If that's the case just in ff seats, then logic would lead to taking into consideration the additional length of movement if you will of a child in a booster with a belt with ride-down time vs. a harnessed seat.

No clear cut answers. Wish there was more information available...

So many factors.

-Angela


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Another thing to take into consideration is the fact that we are assuming every crash is a frontal crash. Side impacts and roll-overs are less common, but more likely to have injuries. This is one area where a 5-pt harness does offer more protection than a booster.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Side impact crashes seriously freak me out. I had a friend who died in one when he was 6 (front seat, no booster, back in the 80s). But it was a semi who hit them, so chances of him surviving were slim, harness or not. It's one reason I insisted on a car with side impact airbags for all.

I have been in a rollover and have personally "felt" how the belt held me in. It did it's job. Basically, the belt locked and kept me down by pushing down on my legs (or I should say I was hanging by my thighs in the belt) and the shoulder part was pretty tight but I didn't feel it as much. I'm fairly confident a boostered kid (particularly in a hbb) would have the same thing happen.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Harnessing older children is fine but contrary to popular opinion it's NOT any safer than using a high back booster for kids 4 and up. Harnessing is not any safer in side impact or frontal collisions. This is yet another car seat myth.

Among people who work seriously and professionally with car seat testing, research, etc the subject of harnessing vs. boosters is not even discussed because everyone know both methods are about equally safe.

As a side note I can mention that Sweden, which is at least 30 years ahead of all other countries in car seat safety, recommend against harnessing older kids for safety reasons.

There is no research or data which show harnessing is any safer. Comparing the two methods is not really possible since it would be too complex, subjective, and costly. It's far better from a child safe perspective to focus on rear facing for kids up to 4 year since the safety difference there is huge.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm in the UK. DD has been in a high-backed booster since she was 3.75 (she was more than tall and heavy enough, though too young, but her harness didn't fit her safely, and we simply couldn't afford £200 for a seat to use for 3 months, and luckily she is very reliable in the car so we made the call). I don't know anyone who harnesses a 5yo, and of all the seats i've seen which work here in the UK i would imagine there'd have to be a growth restriction for a 5yo to FIT in the harness.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I think the thing to take from this is that for this issue, age should not be the deciding factor, but rather the size of the child and what the rating is on the seat. My niece's dd is BIG. She was beyond the weight limits for all booster seats at about 6 years old. A CPST *here* told me that to force her to sit in a booster that she didn't "fit" was more dangerous than just buckling her in.

The key is to have correct information and use it. There seems to be a lot of not just differences of opinions here, but differences in what people believe to be correct information.


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

Quote:

I'm in the UK. DD has been in a high-backed booster since she was 3.75 (she was more than tall and heavy enough, though too young, but her harness didn't fit her safely, and we simply couldn't afford £200 for a seat to use for 3 months, and luckily she is very reliable in the car so we made the call). I don't know anyone who harnesses a 5yo, and of all the seats i've seen which work here in the UK i would imagine there'd have to be a growth restriction for a 5yo to FIT in the harness.
We're also in the UK and 3 YO in boosters (not even high back ones) are common and I don't think there are many seats (without going to special needs ones) which would fit a harnessed 5yo.

We have a britax evolva and while it has the same weight limit (18kg) as all the other FF seats it is a bit roomier and DD fit in till 5 but she is tiny.

DS is only and already getting a bit squashed in his seat. I'm hoping he'll fit in DDs for a bit longer and we can get her a booster.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaughingHyena* 
We're also in the UK and 3 YO in boosters (not even high back ones) are common and I don't think there are many seats (without going to special needs ones) which would fit a harnessed 5yo.

We have a britax evolva and while it has the same weight limit (18kg) as all the other FF seats it is a bit roomier and DD fit in till 5 but she is tiny.

DS is only and already getting a bit squashed in his seat. I'm hoping he'll fit in DDs for a bit longer and we can get her a booster.

Yeah, we have the terrible combo of super-cramped sporty car (mazda rx8) and super tall kid (110cm, was 4 three weeks ago). When her harness was inserting behind her shoulders we took the car to the safety person at a carseat shop/fitter who said in a crash the harness would essentially fold her down (until the forces were direct from insertion point to top of shoulder) and potentially crush her internal organs or even break her spine. So we swapped her into the booster.

We're actually looking at getting a new car soon and the whole seat issue vs fuel consumption is giving us headaches - we want something roomier so we can use the seats we CAN buy in this country (britax seems to be best for taller kids, unfortunately i was gifted DD's harness seat, it's a silver cross and not great for taller kids at ALL) and potentially fit 3 seats of some kind across the back, but we don't want to be driving something bigger and heavier and more expensive than absolutely necessary since the whole point of us selling the rx8 is to save money on running costs (£65 a tank of fuel, for 230miles!







)...


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

When I had my accident back in June of last year. DD was 8.8y around 70pds and 50 inches tall in a high back booster and ds was 4.8y around 35 pds and 40 inches tall in his 5 pt harness.

DD was the one who ended up taking an ambulance ride to the ER because her neck was hurting. Ds in the 5pt harness didnt have any complaints at all. So I am having a hard time seeing how the 5pt harness is more a risk to the neck than the booster. But that is my own personal experience. Both kids got jerked around badly but ds's 5pt harness held him more securely.

I will keep ds in his 5pt until he no longer fits either by height or by weight. I feel he is way safer than dd in her booster.

If I am driving I usually sit pretty still but not always I am adjusting the radio, doing this and that. When I am a passenger I am constantly moving sitting still is not something I am good at.

DD moves around constantly picking stuff up, petting the dog looking backward etc. She gets worse as she ages like me sitting still is a challange. DS on the other hand dosnt have that option since he is harnessed in. I would love for dd to be in a 5pt but I cannot and will not spend that kind of money to fit her in a 5pt now.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I think the thing to take from this is that for this issue, age should not be the deciding factor, but rather the size of the child and what the rating is on the seat. My niece's dd is BIG. She was beyond the weight limits for all booster seats at about 6 years old. A CPST *here* told me that to force her to sit in a booster that she didn't "fit" was more dangerous than just buckling her in.

I'm surprised by that advice. There are backless boosters rated to 120#, and current thought is that it is preferable to use a backless booster (not a highbacked booster and NOT a harnessed seat) above the limit if necessary to get proper fit. Things change, though, and best practice recommendations evolve as we learn more.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

My 45 # 5.5 yo (not sure on height) is in the Britax Parkway and has been for some time. He sits perfectly in it and rarely will fall asleep in the car. If he does his head just leans on one of the wings.

DS2 will be 4 in July and wants to switch to a booster, he's currently in the Graco Nautilus but I may allow him to ride in the high back in dad's vehicle which is only twice a week.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I'm surprised by that advice. There are backless boosters rated to 120#, and current thought is that it is preferable to use a backless booster (not a highbacked booster and NOT a harnessed seat) above the limit if necessary to get proper fit. Things change, though, and best practice recommendations evolve as we learn more.

I agree--that was horrible advice. Size and weight is important, but age and maturity really is the deciding factor. My nephew was 40 pounds at 18 months. Was he ready for a booster? Of course not.


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## jenaniah (Nov 23, 2003)

My niece H went into an HBB somewhere between 5 & 5.5 when she outgrew her harnessed seat by height.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

This thread just throws me for a loop. I was under the idea that you harness until the limits the seat. I have a 4.5 year old who is approximately 39-39.5lbs. He's been forward facing is a Britax Boulevard for about 2 years (would have kept him rear facing longer but the seats had yet to hit the market).

I think he could do a booster seat. He is mature and well behaved. He does fall asleep in the car about once a week or so. I'm not sure what his body would do in a booster. I've never tried him in one.

I'm just not sure what to do! Should he stay in the boulevard harnessed? (I hate that seat btw). Should he go to a booster (harnessed? unharnessed?) What do I do with him!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I would probably wait until after 5 to start booster training, and see how he does


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

There is, as has been stated several times (and not refuted), no evidence that harnessing is safer than boostering for a child of sufficient size and maturity to use a booster properly.

I would prefer to see a 4.5yo harnessed, and honestly, IME/IMO, most kids who still fit in a Britax convertible should be harnessed. Boosters are safe choices for older, bigger kids.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Interesting discussion with many good points. The issue of harnessing vs. boosters is extremely complex. I could easily write a book about it (a very boring book for most.... A little background:

Sweden is about 30 years ahead of any other country, except perhaps Norway, in car seat safety simply because we have been focusing very hard in this since 1965 (not a misprint, I sat rear facing in 1967 until almost age 4 before my younger sister stole my seat Sweden recommend NOT harnessing any older children, age 4 and up, forward facing since we believe this is less safe. We also strongly recommend rear facing to at least age 4.

A quick summary for reason for this recommendation is that children are stopped very abruptly in a 5-point FF harness. While most parents think this is a great strength it's actually the greatest weakness. Children's neck and bones are still growing and ossifying until puberty. Watching a Youtube video thinking it has all answers since the booster child is moving more is totally incorrect. The comparison with race car drivers is not applicable and ridiculous which any logical thinking parent should realize.

What we do know:

- Using a high back booster for kids 4+ is as safe as using a harness.

- Good belt fit is important

- Side impact protection is not any better in harnessed seats

- A light high back booster, which is installed with seat belt, is important due to the extra weight pushing a child forward in a frontal collision (roughly 75% of accidents)

- Age is far more important than size or weight as long as there is a good belt fit. A 4 year old 35 lbs child is not any less safe than a 4 year old 50 lbs child as long as belt fit is good. Bones mature with age, not with size.

- The discussion of what's safer, harnessing or high back boosters, is not really discussed among people who work with this professionally. The amount of people in the world who know a lot about car seat safety is very small.

- Both harnessing and HBB offer good protection although nowhere near as good as rear facing regardless of age.

- There is no research or data which show harnessing is superior in any way

- The issue of what's superior, harnessing or HBB, is somewhat subjective. The Swedish researchers started focusing on child safety 30 years before others and it's a very high priority in Sweden. In US car seat safety is not a top 100 priority while it's top 3 in Sweden. That might be silly but we know cars can kill more kids than anything else. We feel this is a meaningful focus.

The Swedish recommendation of high back boosters could be discarded but I would be careful with this. The Swedes have through many years shown that child fatalities in cars are completely unnecessary. Each year close to zero children in age 0-6 years die in Sweden. The researchers have far more experience than others and, perhaps most important, also have a track record which is considered unbelievable.

- Both harnessed and booster children are well protected. There is really no reason to change to booster from harness, and vice versa, if things are working well. Swedes strongly believe there is a difference in safety but it's minor compared to the huge benefits of rear facing vs. forward facing.

- One method could perform better in some crashes. Sometimes a child would have been saved in a booster and sometimes saved by being in a harness. We don't know ahead of time how and when we will crash so this is beyond our control and not relevant. Most cases of booster death has to do with children being way too young. Putting a 2.5 year old child in a booster is for example not a good idea.

Enjoy your weekend!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
- Using a high back booster for kids 4+ is as safe as using a harness.

...in children who are able to sit properly in a booster, which generally happens between 5 and 6.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 

- Side impact protection is not any better in harnessed seats


...in frontal crashes. In side-impact or rollover crashes, a harness does offer more protection.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
- The discussion of what's safer, harnessing or high back boosters, is not really discussed among people who work with this professionally. The amount of people in the world who know a lot about car seat safety is very small.

This one I will disagree with. I work with car seats professionally, and there is a big debate doing on in the CPS world about extended harnessing vs. boostering. We all agree there needs to be more research.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
....

I would prefer to see a 4.5yo harnessed, and honestly, IME/IMO, most kids who still fit in a Britax convertible should be harnessed. Boosters are safe choices for older, bigger kids.

Well he fits because he hasn't reached the limits of the seat. But he doesn't fit comfortably. The crotch width is getting to be too narrow. We've taken the circle cushion thing out. He's pretty much sitting on the strap that holds that buckle and it is difficult to buckle him because of it.

He also has very long legs that just dangle off the seat and sometimes they fall asleep.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm going back to the retracting the seat belt thing....

I noticed the other day when I was driving and wearing my belt that even though I was sitting still (and I made conscious note of it), my lap belt loosened up quite a bit en route. To the point where, once I got to my destination, there was enough slack to be of concern to ME, as a driver.

Now, if my seatbelt is doing that and I know how to sit in a seat and use a seatbelt, what does that say of the seatbelts of kids in boosters? Another reason why I prefer locking the belt - that little bit of looseness, in a collision, could cause submarining to occur and result in serious or fatal internal organ damage.

And a child - 6, 10, 12, whatever, isn't going to have the mindset to keep tightening the lap portion over their thighs like I can do.

Adventuredad - I was wondering when you'd chime in.









I agree that when I first saw the YouTube videos showing kids thrashing around in boosters during collisions I was like - WHOA! Unsafe!!! Harness all the way!

But the more I thought about it, the more I read and the more I saw, I realized that the body movement of a child in a booster was _helping_ to absorb that impact, and allowing the body to move with the forces rather than resist them. That same resistance is seen in harnessed kids whose bodies move barely at all, but that neck - oh, how that neck flies forward! So much force on one little neck....IMHO, very scary.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 

- Age is far more important than size or weight as long as there is a good belt fit. A 4 year old 35 lbs child is not any less safe than a 4 year old 50 lbs child as long as belt fit is good. Bones mature with age, not with size.


My biggest concern with boostering a petite 4 year old is the risk of submarining. When I hear techs talk on this subject, thats what they talk about the most. My 4yo DD is somewhere between 30-32lbs, and just over 38 inches. She fits well in a Turbo booster, but I just couldnt imagine her riding that way.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by Adventuredad
- Using a high back booster for kids 4+ is as safe as using a harness.

Quote:

...in children who are able to sit properly in a booster, which generally happens between 5 and 6.
Again, the most experienced researchers and experts in the world disagree with that statement. You may certainly disagree but these people have been focusing hard on car seat safety since 1965 and also have an unbelievable track record to back up their advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventuredad

- Side impact protection is not any better in harnessed seats

.

Quote:

..in frontal crashes. In side-impact or rollover crashes, a harness does offer more protection.
Again, the most experienced researchers and experts in the world disagree with that. There is no side impact issues in frontal collisions so don't really understand your statement there. High back booster offer just as good side impact protection as harnessed seats.

There are other issues which make high back boosters safer than harnessed seats through issues we don't think much about but I don't think it's any point picking on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventuredad

The discussion of what's safer, harnessing or high back boosters, is not really discussed among people who work with this professionally. The amount of people in the world who know a lot about car seat safety is very small.

Quote:

This one I will disagree with. I work with car seats professionally, and there is a big debate doing on in the CPS world about extended harnessing vs. boostering. We all agree there needs to be more research.
I think it's great you're "working professionally" with car seats. That's great! We all have different definitions of what "working professionally" with car seats are. The small group of people who really know a lot are not just car seat techs, sell car seats or participate in forums. There can be a huge difference between someone calling themselves an expert and someone who really is an expert. They are on a totally different level. By saying that I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, this is very complicated stuff.

A few examples of what I mean when I say "working professionally" with car seat safety. Someone who has knowledge across a wide spectrum of important issue such as:

- Developing car seats from scratch. Includes drawing, development, testing and bringing seats to market

- Been involved in extensive testing at crash test facilities

- Has detailed knowledge of standards, testing and research worldwide.

- Know the exact difference between FMVSS 213 and ECE R44 down to the exact angles

- Give advice on new car seat standards

- Playing around with the crash test sledges

- Is a member of expert group working on car seat standards

- Invited to consult when a company is developing a new car seat

- Work as a senior researchers in a highly regarded crash test facility

- Has detailed knowledge of what happens in a child's body in a crash

- Know everything about G-forces, forces on neck in Newtons etc.

- Sought out by organizations for expert car seat advice

- Work as a doctor and also with hardcore car seat research

The list can be made as long as we like. My point is these people have an amazing knowledge in many fields who are all important for car seat safety. This group is very small worldwide. These people know harnessing isn't any safer than high back boosters so there is no obsession discussing it. Many other things related to this are discussed but not what's safer, that's already known (both are about as safe).

Quote:

Adventuredad - I was wondering when you'd chime in.

I agree that when I first saw the YouTube videos showing kids thrashing around in boosters during collisions I was like - WHOA! Unsafe!!! Harness all the way!

But the more I thought about it, the more I read and the more I saw, I realized that the body movement of a child in a booster was helping to absorb that impact, and allowing the body to move with the forces rather than resist them. That same resistance is seen in harnessed kids whose bodies move barely at all, but that neck - oh, how that neck flies forward! So much force on one little neck....IMHO, very scary.
Good point. Seeing children collide in any way, except perhaps rear facing, is very dramatic and scary. Problem is that very few understand what really goes on in a collision. A harnessed seat may be beter in some crashes and high back booster in others. But we don't know ahead of time hat will happen....


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
- Developing car seats from scratch. Includes drawing, development, testing and bringing seats to market

- Been involved in extensive testing at crash test facilities

- Has detailed knowledge of standards, testing and research worldwide.

- Know the exact difference between FMVSS 213 and ECE R44 down to the exact angles

- Give advice on new car seat standards

- Playing around with the crash test sledges

- Is a member of expert group working on car seat standards

- Invited to consult when a company is developing a new car seat

- Work as a senior researchers in a highly regarded crash test facility

- Has detailed knowledge of what happens in a child's body in a crash

- Know everything about G-forces, forces on neck in Newtons etc.

- Sought out by organizations for expert car seat advice

- Work as a doctor and also with hardcore car seat research


And which of these pertain to you, exactly?


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
My biggest concern with boostering a petite 4 year old is the risk of submarining. When I hear techs talk on this subject, thats what they talk about the most. My 4yo DD is somewhere between 30-32lbs, and just over 38 inches. She fits well in a Turbo booster, but I just couldnt imagine her riding that way.

Weight is in general not an important issue. The 40 lbs limit in US is there since hopefully people won't put a 2 year old in a booster....

A petite 4 year old might not be able to achieve a good belt fit and then a high booster might not be a good idea.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Most US highbacked boosters actually have a 30# limit, and I really wouldn't want to see a child any smaller that in a booster. 40# is generally suggested as a best practice guideline, not an actual rule or law (in most states).


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
NO ONE I know who has a 5 year old is still using a harness. NO ONE. I think it is very, very common for 5 year olds to be in boosters.

Well, my five-year old is, and I do know plenty of others her age that are. Fine to those that choose to use a booster after doing the research on it, but I have a real problem with backless boosters at that age. My cousin's kid is still 4 and I couldn't believe when I saw that he was in one. :\


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bjorker* 
Well, my five-year old is, and I do know plenty of others her age that are. Fine to those that choose to use a booster after doing the research on it, but I have a real problem with backless boosters at that age. My cousin's kid is still 4 and I couldn't believe when I saw that he was in one. :\

Are we talking about backless boosters? The booster my five year old is in is a high-back booster.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Most US highbacked boosters actually have a 30# limit, and I really wouldn't want to see a child any smaller that in a booster. 40# is generally suggested as a best practice guideline, not an actual rule or law (in most states).

Good point. If it wasn't clear I was also talking about high back boosters which are far safer.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Weight is in general not an important issue. The 40 lbs limit in US is there since hopefully people won't put a 2 year old in a booster....

A petite 4 year old might not be able to achieve a good belt fit and then a high booster might not be a good idea.

At just 30lbs and 38 inches, she fits perfectly in the Graco Turbo Booster. 3 years, 30lbs, and 38 inches are that seats minimums. But Ive seen kids smaller than that fit well in that seat as well. I would never put her in that seat to go anywhere unless it was an emergency situation and that was our only choice.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

The first thing I think when I read these debates is, "I wish all parents cared this much!" The reality is that non-use of any booster or restraint is still our biggest issue to fight. Far, far too many parents simply stop using anything at all as children age.

Honestly, although I personally and professionally, as a CPST Instructor, am very interested in the harnessing vs. boostering discussions, and would love to see more research and learn more on this subject, I mostly just want parents to try to use something for every ride, every time.

It's hard in areas like this where parents what to do "the best" and there is a debate about what is best. The reality is that harnessed or boostered, what matters most is that the seat is used according to the indicated weights and heights, and that children are in a booster or restraint until they can pass the 5 step test to fit a seat belt correctly. This typically does not happen until at least 4'9", regardless of weight.

I hope the message parents that are not involved in the child passenger safety world can take away from this debate is that BOTH options offer good protection and what matters most is that you are 1) using a restraint/booster for every ride, every time and that 2) you choose the option that works best for you, your child and your vehicle.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

I do not know of a single kid in Janelle's class, this year or last year (kindergarten and first grade) who are harnessed...and she is a small kid, and not the smallest kid in her class, there are definitely some really tiny boys who should definitely should of been harnessed last year. I only know of 2 other kids in Kincaid's class(kindergarten) who are still harnessed. So I think not harnessed at 5 is definitely the norm. Janelle and Kincaid are both still harnessed...when the fire department visited Janelle's class they sent every kid home with a sheet about what car seat they should be in, and hers said she needed to be harnessed cause she is 39lbs (she was 42lbs in September, so I'm not sure I agree with their scale, I don't think over 7 months she lost 3lbs...) so she doesn't even want to ride in her booster seat with girl scouts and such anymore after that (she and Kincaid are still harnessed in our car).


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
The first thing I think when I read these debates is, "I wish all parents cared this much!" The reality is that non-use of any booster or restraint is still our biggest issue to fight. Far, far too many parents simply stop using anything at all as children age.

Honestly, although I personally and professionally, as a CPST Instructor, am very interested in the harnessing vs. boostering discussions, and would love to see more research and learn more on this subject, I mostly just want parents to try to use something for every ride, every time.

It's hard in areas like this where parents what to do "the best" and there is a debate about what is best. The reality is that harnessed or boostered, what matters most is that the seat is used according to the indicated weights and heights, and that children are in a booster or restraint until they can pass the 5 step test to fit a seat belt correctly. This typically does not happen until at least 4'9", regardless of weight.

I hope the message parents that are not involved in the child passenger safety world can take away from this debate is that BOTH options offer good protection and what matters most is that you are 1) using a restraint/booster for every ride, every time and that 2) you choose the option that works best for you, your child and your vehicle.









Well said!


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

My 5 year old is in a booster. He is 44 lbs. I think the key is can your child sit properly in the seat. I "practiced" with my son before we moved full-time into the booster. We drove around town a few times and we took one 1.5 hours trip. I checked on him regularly and reminded him to sit straight, to keep the should belt in the right place, etc. He did sit well in it, so he went into it full-time so my daughter could inherit his radian. If she didn't need the seat, however, I wouldn't have switched him simply because he prefers it and thinks it is more comfortable than his booster. Also, for the first 2 or 3 months, I helped him buckle up. (Now he does it on his own.)

Since my son can use a booster correctly then I don't think it matters. I don't believe he is any less safe than he would be harnessed.

(One caveat: When we took a 5 hour trip, that was a bit much for him. I wouldn't do that trip again in a booster. He got too fidgety in the seat. Luckily, we have nothing like that planned in the future.)


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## flitters (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Originally Posted by Adventuredad
- Using a high back booster for kids 4+ is as safe as using a harness.

Quote:

...in children who are able to sit properly in a booster, which generally happens between 5 and 6.
Again, the most experienced researchers and experts in the world disagree with that statement. You may certainly disagree but these people have been focusing hard on car seat safety since 1965 and also have an unbelievable track record to back up their advice

Real question (not meant to be snarky at all): Are you (Adventuredad, or someone who understood his point) suggesting that most children can sit properly in a booster at 4+ (rather than b/w 5 and 6), or that the difference between sitting properly is insignificant between 4, 5, and 6 yo's, or that the proper booster sitting isn't that important? Or something else entirely?

We have a small 5.5 yo who is soon to outgrow his Marathon. We have a Frontier 85 which he will begin using harnessed and then transition to booster once he is able to sit "properly" which I expect to happen sometime after he turns 6 yo (ie. he's really not there yet).


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Adventuredad and others have had this debate on car-seat.org for a while now. Apparently the only thing I can conclude is that Swedish kids are wired differently from North American kids (somewhat tongue-in-cheek), because I don't know many 4yos who can use a booster properly and consistently, yet AD is convinced that they can.


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## flitters (Sep 18, 2003)

So he isn't suggesting that it doesn't *matter* whether the kid sits right or not, just debating the age at which the average kid does?

(The scope of my decision is small and pretty easy since I'm rather certain my kid is not mature enough to sit well yet, but I was surprised that AD might have been implying that it doesn't matter. From your clarification, it sounds like he acknowledges sitting properly matters, just disagrees on when most can do it.)

Thanks you! (And please correct me if I'm wrong!)


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I still use our Radian 80 (with harness) for our 6yo dd in my car, but she uses a booster in dh's car.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flitters* 
So he isn't suggesting that it doesn't *matter* whether the kid sits right or not, just debating the age at which the average kid does?

(The scope of my decision is small and pretty easy since I'm rather certain my kid is not mature enough to sit well yet, but I was surprised that AD might have been implying that it doesn't matter. From your clarification, it sounds like he acknowledges sitting properly matters, just disagrees on when most can do it.)

Thanks you! (And please correct me if I'm wrong!)

That's my understanding of his arguments, but there's always the chance that my understanding is faulty.


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## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

I do have my 5 1/2 yo DD harnessed still but I am the only one I know of who does. The laws where I live say they have to be 20 lbs and a year to FF, 40 lbs and 4 years for a booster, and 80 lbs or 8 years old to use just a seatbelt.

Most people seem to FF thier 22 lb 10 MO or put thier 36 lb 4 yo in a booster.

My DD will stay in her Nauti until I think she is mature enough to sit properly in a booster when she is not getting her own way ( not wanting to leave grammas house for example)


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## flitters (Sep 18, 2003)

I happen to be going over the installation instructions for the Frontier85 (harness to booster seat) and observed the following so I thought I'd share:

Britax (who as a company would leverage the knowledge of people meeting all the criteria listed earlier by AdventureDad) notes in the user guide:

"Britax recommends booster mode only after the child outgrows harness mode."

On this particular seat, that means roughly 57 inches or 85 pounds.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

I have my almost 5 year old harnessed. Most of the other girls in her Pre-K are in boosters. But she's small--only 35 pounds max--so I feel more comfortable with her harnessed. I don't mind doing her straps, but I do have to deal with the conversations about why she's still harnessed.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

DS is 4 years 2 months and now in a booster. He's 47 lbs and probably 47 inches, maybe a little taller. He outgrew his nauti's in the grandparent cars, so we put him in a turbo. He has a regent for my car, but I moved him to a monterey in my car. He is very mature for his age (not just biased, I promise!) and does great. I wouldn't do it if I didn't feel he was completely safe. DD is 3 years 3 months, and I'm positive even if she met the size requirements at age 4, she wouldn't be near ready to sit in a booster for a long time.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Yes, my sister just outgrew the Truefit I gave her. She is 49 inches and 43lbs. I was really hoping she would get more fit out of it, but to get the harness to fit I have to lower the heights to such a point that it makes marks on her shoudlers and she says she "hates it."

Fortunately I found a Britax Parkway for $40 at Target...online return!









ETA: I know she could be harnessed longer and I wish that as well, but my mom is old-school in that department and still learning about carseat safety. In the bulk of her parenting days, seats came in one style: forward facing with the overheard arm and when you were 2 or 3 you went into a seatbelt!
:0 I doubt I could convince her to spend $$$ on a frontier or radian and I don't have that kind of $$$ either.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

If the straps are below her shoulders, she has outgrown the seat.


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## Smidge (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
Seems like I"m the only one. Without starting the mommy wars, is there anyone else out there not harnessing their 5 y/o? My dd is small, 36 pounds and 46 inches. She's in a turbo booster.

I don't have a 5yr old yet, but my dh and I agree that everyone should be in a 5pt harness at all times (babies, toddler, kids and adults). Saying that, when our kids grow out of their Blvds they will be moving to the Britax Frontier 85 and staying in the harness until they outgrow it.

I worry about your dd being so small with no 5-pt harness, but of course you're the only one who truly knows your situation


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

There is absolutely no evidence that children who are able to use a booster properly (this includes physical and developmental maturity as well as correct fit and use) are safer harnessed than boostered. There is some non-conclusive evidence that 5-point harnesses protect better in certain crashes, and some non-conclusive evidence that boosters and shoulder/lap belts protect better in certain crashes, but overall, they are both extremely safe choices when used correctly and again, there is no evidence that one is better than the other.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smidge* 
I worry about your dd being so small with no 5-pt harness, but of course you're the only one who truly knows your situation









That would be my issue, I see no reason why a mature enough and big enough 5 year old shouldn't be in a booster, but I don't think a 36lb kid, at any age, should be...everything I've read/been told/seen says 40lbs and up for using a booster seat.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
That would be my issue, I see no reason why a mature enough and big enough 5 year old shouldn't be in a booster, but I don't think a 36lb kid, at any age, should be...everything I've read/been told/seen says 40lbs and up for using a booster seat.

It actually depends a lot on age as well, since skeletal/hip development has a lot to do with it. A lot of techs agree that older children below 40lbs are fine in a booster, and as a parent you have to decide at what age you are comfortable with that. A lot of boosters are rated 30+lbs.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I would need to see how the child actually fit in the booster, but assuming proper fit and use -- I would personally prefer to see a 36# 5yo harnessed, but I certainly wouldn't *worry* about that child in a booster.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
It actually depends a lot on age as well, since skeletal/hip development has a lot to do with it. A lot of techs agree that older children below 40lbs are fine in a booster, and as a parent you have to decide at what age you are comfortable with that. A lot of boosters are rated 30+lbs.

I don't know, at 6 years old and 34lbs Janelle didn't look safe in a booster, but she also is on the short side and is all legs with an amazingly short torso (7 1/2 and still wearing 3t bathing suits!)...now at 7 1/2 and right around 40lbs, she does fit fine in a booster and uses it when with friends or going on girl scout field trips.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

That's why I wrote that proper fit is essential. Some 34# children fit very well in some boosters. And other 34# children fit terribly in other boosters.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Yup, ITA about fit. My neice went to a booster around 6 and she was 35lbs. Fit her fine. It'll totally depend on torso height and such.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smidge* 
I don't have a 5yr old yet, but my dh and I agree that everyone should be in a 5pt harness at all times (babies, toddler, kids and adults). Saying that, when our kids grow out of their Blvds they will be moving to the Britax Frontier 85 and staying in the harness until they outgrow it.

I worry about your dd being so small with no 5-pt harness, but of course you're the only one who truly knows your situation









There is a common belief harnessing is safer than boosters for older kids but it's simply not true. People working seriously and professionally with car seats know this very well.

Chickybiddy's comments sums everything up very well (thanks for the nice summary)

Quote:

There is absolutely no evidence that children who are able to use a booster properly (this includes physical and developmental maturity as well as correct fit and use) are safer harnessed than boostered. There is some non-conclusive evidence that 5-point harnesses protect better in certain crashes, and some non-conclusive evidence that boosters and shoulder/lap belts protect better in certain crashes, but overall, they are both extremely safe choices when used correctly and again, there is no evidence that one is better than the other.
Belt fit is important in boosters. Age is more important than size since skeleton mature with age. Weight has little to do with safety. A 35 lbs 4 year old is just as safe as a 50 lbs 4 year old as long as belt fit is good.


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