# Considering Seeing Sleep Specialist.. WWYD?



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I know a lot of you have been following my "depserate" thread, and I would've posted in there but I feel like this thought needs its own thread....

For those of you not familiar, here is the quick background/info..

-DS is 9 months old
-he wakes between 10-20 times a night, on average
-we cosleep
-the _longest_ stretch of sleep we have been getting recently is 1 hour
-his sleep has been getting progressively worse (shorter periods) as he has gotten older
-he fights sleep, which has also gotten worse as he has gotten older
-he has reflux, for which he is on Prevacid
-also has food allergies, I've been on and off ED's and he's been tested
-he is high-needs/sensitive/spirited in every way
-I've read NCSS, and Sleepless in America
-we. have. tried. EVERYTHING.
-and every combination of everything.

I know my son. I know something is wrong. It cannot be 'normal' for a 9-month old to wake up 20 times in a 9-10 hour period. He is not happy, he is chronically overtired. I have tried everything I can, and nothing at all. We can't break the cycle.

He seems to have some sort of insomnia or something. Lately we've had a few 'good' nights, where he will sleep for an hour at a time, but over the last few weeks we've had a few nights like last night thrown in...

7:45- goes to sleep
8:30- first wakeup, nurse back to sleep
9:15- second wakeup, after this I join him in bed
then he proceeds to wake every 30-45 min or so (I vaguely remember..)
3:30-5- spends this time in and out of sleep.. fussing, rolling around.. like he is TRYING so hard to sleep, but can't and WANTS to sleep, but can't.
5:45-wake up and nurse back to sleep
6:30- up for the day (this was actually sleeping in.. he has been waking at 5 the last few weeks)

He doesn't just wake up, roll over and nurse and go back to sleep. He wakes up and fusses/cries, I try to nurse, he refuses, I switch sides, he refuses, I switch sides again he finally nurses. It isn't a habit, it isn't that he is waking up because he wants milk and wants to nurse. He is waking up and he can't help it and he wants to sleep but he can't.

Now the point of this thread---

*Have any of you taken your DC to a sleep specialist? How old were they? Will they even see a baby under 1 year old? What could they even do to help?* I have heard of giving children melatonin, but DS is probably too young for that.

No matter how perfectly I orchestrate our day, stay on schedule, go off schedule, etc etc, *NOTHING MAKES A DIFFERENCE!*


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## kgreenemama (Dec 31, 2008)

It sounds like you've always been true to your instincts as a mom. So if a trip to a specialist can allay your fears at least or uncover a medical issue that your child has, why not? Two bits of advice: Call your health care company - you may need a referral from your ped for the visit to be covered, and specialists are expensive. And, keep in mind that Evil Doctor Ferber is the director for pediatric sleep disorders at Children's Hospital in Boston. So go prepared with your full story and be clear up front that CIO is not an option. Maybe you could ask to see a specialist who doesn't "prescribe" that technique. Good luck and Keep us posted!!!
-KGreeneMama (still waking and crying several times a night ourselves at 13 months! Next, you and I need to start a thread on these high needs/spirited kids!)


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Wow, I didn't think about the Ferber thing. You think they'd just tell me to let him CIO? UGHHHH..







:

I am thinking of looking for a holistic pediatrician... or something.... i don't knooooow.

This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Hey mama,

Go for it. If you don't like the advice they give you, you don't have to take it!

Also wanted to say: I can totally relate. We went through the exact same thing; waking all night long and only sleeping 30-45 minute stretches.

It did eventually get better, and starting at a little past 2 yrs old DS started sleeping through the night. I never thought it would happen! But once his last molars came through, it did.

I understand the exhaustion and the desperation. Good luck!!!!!!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Could it be the teeth? Even with Tylenol or Motrin he doesn't sleep any better, though...


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

Honestly, I have to say from 8 to 11 months was pretty much the worse period in my crappy-sleeping kid's life. Teething, cruising, there were a lot of factors and it was AWFUL, up at least every hour and taking hours to get to sleep. I was going NUTS. He did outgrow it by his first birthday and at 17 months doesn't sleep great but better at least for a few hours at a time.

If you can find an AP minded sleep specialist they might be some help but I'm guessing a normal sleep specialist is just going to tell you to let him CIO.


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

I went to a sleep "consultant" (non-medical) not sure if that is the same as a sleep specialist. Sounds different as it sounds like yours would be an MD or equivalent?

In any case -- for the one we saw, both DH and I went but we went without the kids. She asked us questions and outlined a plan for us based on what we said.

I would think if you went to a sleep disorder type facility it would be totally different -- where they would observe the baby while sleeping? I don't know, I've only seen that on TV (probably on _House_)!


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I went to a talk by a sleep specialist at my breast feeding support group. While she was very nice and seemed willing to allow parents to take the lead somewhat, she definetly talking about CIO, usually the gentle style where you stay in the room etc, but she was very big on the kid needing to learn to go to sleep on their own. Her theroy was that once they can go to sleep on their own, when they wake up at night they will be able to put themselves back to sleep. I dunno, I didn't particularly like her advice, but there were people who very interested. so you can maybe call one at your local children's hospital and get a feel over the phone?

also have you tried homeopathy or herbs, or herbal teas? That helped my get through the rough patch at 9-11 months


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Go for it. You can always ignore their advice if it is useless. In your other thread I mentioned a friend who took her DD to a specialist. I think she was around 18 months.


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

I just wanted to add that if you're going to see a non-medical sleep specialist -- someone through a mother's group or a BFing group or similar -- that you might want to do some digging beforehand and see what "bent" they are. I was so desperate that when my friend mentioned she had gone to talks from this person and "thought she was pretty good", I just called up and made an appointment. $125 and one hour later, I walked out feeling kind of gipped and not feeling like I was any better off than I was before.

I think most sleep consultants are for people who are too sleep-deprived/busy to read any books or talk to other parents or do any research of any kind. Everything she told me, I already knew/had read/didn't agree with/didn't want to do (basically, variations on CIO). She insisted that I had to un-sidecar the crib and put the rail up (which would have unnecessarily traumatized my children, IMO). When I asked for an alternate, more AP-friendly method, she basically told me I had to live with my babies not STTN and cater to their every whim. I was disappointed because I was really hoping for some options in the middle, and she wasn't really able to give me any. I ultimately did it my own way and my kids do now STTN (they still wake but put themselves back to sleep, just as adults do). If I had gone to a more AP-friendly sleep consultant, maybe I would have gotten better ideas. The one I went to, I thought was a waste of time and money.


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

we hired a sleep "consultant" when my dd was 8 weeks old because she was not.sleeping.at.all and I was somewhat out of my mind...in retrospect I think I may have had a touch of ppd...anyway, I had no idea what a sleep "consultant" was...a friend encouraged me to call. I was so desperate I thought this person was going to swoop in and help me learn how to get my lo to sleep...honestly I had never really even heard of cio at that point, so this woman came in and all of the advice she gave me went against my mother gut...I tried it for I think 2 or 3 days (not the cio part...there was no way I could do that) and felt nauseous, so i stopped. anyway, my point is that it will probably go against the type of parent that you are. They are going to tell you to put him on a schedule...space out the daytime feedings....stop nursing him to sleep, stop co-sleeping and to cio. Most of them are pretty expensive too. However, if you want to go see a sleep specialist like an MD, I'm not sure what they will say, but probably something along those lines. So, I have a question, have you ever waited a few minutes to see if he will settle a little on his own? Does he ever sleep in a crib...have you thought about getting a music box or something like the fisher price aquarium thing to put in the crib??


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## Curlyfry7 (Jun 20, 2007)

Doesn't the author of Sleepless in America do personal ...ummm...maybe consultations?? I think I remember reading something about it....

yes...here is the website:

http://www.parentchildhelp.com/Priva...2/Default.aspx

I'm not sure how much help she'd be, but I know when I read the book I thought her ideas were pretty AP and sounded good (my DS was a little too young at the time to apply them, though)

Hugs....I think of you when I wake with my DD in the night.........


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curlyfry7* 
Doesn't the author of Sleepless in America do personal ...ummm...maybe consultations?? I think I remember reading something about it....

yes...here is the website:

http://www.parentchildhelp.com/Priva...2/Default.aspx

I'm not sure how much help she'd be, but I know when I read the book I thought her ideas were pretty AP and sounded good (my DS was a little too young at the time to apply them, though)

Hugs....I think of you when I wake with my DD in the night.........


Um, wow, thank you for that link! I will definitely try and set up something!!!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 
we hired a sleep "consultant" when my dd was 8 weeks old because she was not.sleeping.at.all and I was somewhat out of my mind...in retrospect I think I may have had a touch of ppd...anyway, I had no idea what a sleep "consultant" was...a friend encouraged me to call. I was so desperate I thought this person was going to swoop in and help me learn how to get my lo to sleep...honestly I had never really even heard of cio at that point, so this woman came in and all of the advice she gave me went against my mother gut...I tried it for I think 2 or 3 days (not the cio part...there was no way I could do that) and felt nauseous, so i stopped. anyway, my point is that it will probably go against the type of parent that you are. They are going to tell you to put him on a schedule...space out the daytime feedings....stop nursing him to sleep, stop co-sleeping and to cio. Most of them are pretty expensive too. However, if you want to go see a sleep specialist like an MD, I'm not sure what they will say, but probably something along those lines. So, I have a question, have you ever waited a few minutes to see if he will settle a little on his own? Does he ever sleep in a crib...have you thought about getting a music box or something like the fisher price aquarium thing to put in the crib??


I have waited like... maybe 2 minutes to see if he would sleep on his own. He won't. He even has a hard time sleeping at night with me right beside him.







and one of those aquarium things would just distract him. He has to have NOTHING stimulating AT ALL for him to sleep. I can't even have my eyes open or cough or move at all...

I had no idea a sleep consultant would say those things..







How awful is it that in our society if a baby or child is having trouble sleeping, the 'experts' just tell you to ignore your child's screams and 'that'll teach them'..... yes, it will teach them not to call out to you, and that their cries will be ignored. thus, they will stop crying at night. but, will that solve the underlying problem? NO!!!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your replies! I really had no idea that sleep specialists were all CIO and non-AP.... I guess we won't be seeing one after all....


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Friday13th* 
Honestly, I have to say from 8 to 11 months was pretty much the worse period in my crappy-sleeping kid's life. Teething, cruising, there were a lot of factors and it was AWFUL, up at least every hour and taking hours to get to sleep. I was going NUTS. He did outgrow it by his first birthday and at 17 months doesn't sleep great but better at least for a few hours at a time.

This is very encouraging to me. Thank you. I can last a few more months of this. Honestly, I can even survive off of waking every hour.. it is just the every 30-45 minutes and waking at 5 AM and staying awake from 3-4:30 that kill me.

He is trying to walk, cruising and pulling up on everything. I dont' think he has any teeth working through right now (he already has 7) but I guess it could be the combo of all of that.. his little brain is working overtime.


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

I just looked at your original post again....have you tried putting him to bed earlier? My lo goes to bed most nights between 6/6:30 which I know is super early but she is so spaced out and tired come 5:30, and to be honest because i am so tired during the day that i look forward to putting her to bed early to get a break...SO, if not for him and his quality of sleep for YOU. I really feel for you...you sound like a very patient, loving mother and I'm sure this is getting to you emotionally. My lo is a horrible sleeper (not as bad as liam) and I often feel angry and resentful...so I can only imagine how you must be feeling. Unfortunately, it does sound like in your son's case it's probably physical discomfort...which it sounds like you are doing everything you can to help him. I would also suggest maybe seeing another pediatrician if the only advice yours gave was cio (I vaguely remember that from another thread) because that is not only cruel to do to a baby who is suffering, it simply won't work! Anyway, hth...hang in there


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 
I just looked at your original post again....have you tried putting him to bed earlier? My lo goes to bed most nights between 6/6:30 which I know is super early but she is so spaced out and tired come 5:30, and to be honest because i am so tired during the day that i look forward to putting her to bed early to get a break...SO, if not for him and his quality of sleep for YOU. I really feel for you...you sound like a very patient, loving mother and I'm sure this is getting to you emotionally. My lo is a horrible sleeper (not as bad as liam) and I often feel angry and resentful...so I can only imagine how you must be feeling. Unfortunately, it does sound like in your son's case it's probably physical discomfort...which it sounds like you are doing everything you can to help him. I would also suggest maybe seeing another pediatrician if the only advice yours gave was cio (I vaguely remember that from another thread) because that is not only cruel to do to a baby who is suffering, it simply won't work! Anyway, hth...hang in there

he probably does need to go to bed earlier. I have tried a few times, but since it is still so light outside, and DH is just getting home (big overstimulation there!) and we eat at 6ish, it just never happens. Ideally I think he'd do great to go to bed at 7. But it never happens.









Our ped did suggest CIO, but she also said if I wasn't comfortable with it, not to do it. And said it could be the allergies and reflux, had us get some blood work done, and to try upping his dose of prevacid. She really is great, very AP friendly, also a lisenced LC, etc. When I told her I wouldn't do CIO, she was totally fine with it. She is also one of very few no-vax friendly ped's in our area (and she is still a 30 minute drive, so not really in our 'area').


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 
I just looked at your original post again....have you tried putting him to bed earlier? My lo goes to bed most nights between 6/6:30 which I know is super early but she is so spaced out and tired come 5:30, and to be honest because i am so tired during the day that i look forward to putting her to bed early to get a break...SO, if not for him and his quality of sleep for YOU. I really feel for you...you sound like a very patient, loving mother and I'm sure this is getting to you emotionally. My lo is a horrible sleeper (not as bad as liam) and I often feel angry and resentful...so I can only imagine how you must be feeling. Unfortunately, it does sound like in your son's case it's probably physical discomfort...which it sounds like you are doing everything you can to help him. I would also suggest maybe seeing another pediatrician if the only advice yours gave was cio (I vaguely remember that from another thread) because that is not only cruel to do to a baby who is suffering, it simply won't work! Anyway, hth...hang in there

I just want to second this suggestion. My DD#2 was a horrible sleeper from about 6-14 months. She was so hard to get to sleep, even with nursing and co sleeping and I swear she woke up 1 to 5 times, every hour. And through the rose colored glasses I have a hard time remembering when she started to turn, but it was right about that time we started putting her to bed at 6pm. Honestly, she's been a great sleeper every since (she's 2 1/2 yo now). I mean she still sometimes wakes or wants to be nursed but it's totally normal. Oh, and she now goes to bed at 8pm. Good luck. I know this stage can be so exhausting!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoablessing* 
I just want to second this suggestion. My DD#2 was a horrible sleeper from about 6-14 months. She was so hard to get to sleep, even with nursing and co sleeping and I swear she woke up 1 to 5 times, every hour. And through the rose colored glasses I have a hard time remembering when she started to turn, but it was right about that time we started putting her to bed at 6pm. Honestly, she's been a great sleeper every since (she's 2 1/2 yo now). I mean she still sometimes wakes or wants to be nursed but it's totally normal. Oh, and she now goes to bed at 8pm. Good luck. I know this stage can be so exhausting!

just wondering if you live in VA? noticed you're a DMB fan.









Yeah, tonight he went to bed early but that was because he missed his afternoon nap. I am going to start trying to get him to bed earlier. Here is the thing, he has a 'window' of time to get him to sleep, and if you miss it, it's another 2 hours before that 'window' comes back. So, he would probably go to bed around 6, but since we usually miss that window because we are eating dinner, etc. he doesn't end up in bed most nights until 8.

How can I get him to bed earlier? Some days he doesn't wake up from his afternoon nap until 4....


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

try to make his naps at 8:30/9 and 1:30/2...not sure how long he naps but those are my lo's nap times and she is primed for bed at 6.....she's out in like 5 minutes after our routine....some nights she wakes once or twice before i bring her into bed with me and others she sleeps for 4 hours. I would def give the early bedtime a try....don't let him nap past 4....i think one of the keys to nighttime sleep is an organized day...not a "schedule" but routines. my lo knows when it's naptime and time to go to bed....as soon as we go into her room during these times and i put on our coldplay lullaby cd, she starts rubbing her eyes and getting sleepy. Do you have routines for naps/bedtime?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

You said that you can't put him to bed earlier b/c you eat dinner at 6 - is it possible for you to eat dinner after he goes to bed? I know that I'm starving by the time dinner comes around, but it might be worth a try for you to eat a snack around 4:30 or 5 so that you won't be so hungry at 6, and try to put Liam to bed around 6 or 6:30, and then eat dinner after that. If you tried that for a week you might have a pretty good idea of whether it will work or not and you would be able to try a few different things to see if it will work.

I hope things get better for you! I follow alot of your threads since you're always so nice to me when I post







I especially love looking at the photos you link to in your siggy b/c your family is super cute!


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
Yeah, tonight he went to bed early but that was because he missed his afternoon nap. I am going to start trying to get him to bed earlier. Here is the thing, he has a 'window' of time to get him to sleep, and if you miss it, it's another 2 hours before that 'window' comes back. So, he would probably go to bed around 6, but since we usually miss that window because we are eating dinner, etc. he doesn't end up in bed most nights until 8.

How can I get him to bed earlier? Some days he doesn't wake up from his afternoon nap until 4....


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
You said that you can't put him to bed earlier b/c you eat dinner at 6 - is it possible for you to eat dinner after he goes to bed? I know that I'm starving by the time dinner comes around, but it might be worth a try for you to eat a snack around 4:30 or 5 so that you won't be so hungry at 6, and try to put Liam to bed around 6 or 6:30, and then eat dinner after that.









: If he still has sleep windows every two hours, put him down! I know it can be miserable to not eat at a decent hour, slip out of church at weird times, arrive at family get togethers late, or cut short errands, but it sounds like he needs you to really stay on top of his sleep window.

With the extent it is disrupting your family, his sleep takes precedence for a while.


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## nelson (Aug 12, 2008)

My LO is not a good sleeper either, this does sound a bit extreme though. It seems from your description that he may be uncomfortable if he is waking up so frequently, have you tried an elimination diet? And this probably seems totally obvious, but do you have a completely dark room and a white noise maker?


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## Loralz (Feb 20, 2009)

I've ben following along and it didn't hit me 'til today to give you the advice that we got 2 weeks ago that has really, really helped.

Growth spurts hurt. For my Wee One, the legs seem to be the main culprit. Two weeks ago I started rubbing her legs while she nurses. That really helped increase the sleep time, as she was doing what you said (waking up with cries, not just stirring around). The first night I did this, she totally relaxed and went right to sleep.

So we do a that with Daddy taking the first wake up if it's been less than an hour since she last woke up. We've both learned what the "I need nursing" act/cry is, so dh calls me in as necessary.









As long as he handles this at the initial 2/3 hours of going to bed, I'm all right with the rest of the night.


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## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

I know in your OP you mention some food allergies. This is exactly how my son was until we nailed down his allergies and started treating him through a Quantum Biofeedback Therapist who uses an allergy elimination technique. We had tried the elimination diets multiple times with no success. We even saw a Ped GI who put him on prevacid. Looking back, I realize there was corn in the prevacid, and corn was his biggest allergy so that's why we never got anywhere. Once he started treatment he went from sleeping like your LO, waking every 30 minutes to waking 1-2 times per night. It may be different with your LO. The suggestions about trying earlier bedtimes are worth trying (although your LOs pattern sounds like mine too...he can be ready to sleep but if you miss the window he gets a second wind and won't be ready for another 2 hours; he's also a huge sleep fighter...no suggestions for that one!)

Anyway, through biofeedback we identified each of his allergy triggers: no more guessing or eliminating. It was such a relief. The first one she found was a reaction to maltose, which is the sugar found in all grains. Between that and corn we NEVER would have figured it out on our own! I would recommend searching out a naturopath along with someone who is trained in the allergy elimination technique (you can google it and there are threads about it in the allergy forum here). Good luck! Follow your gut. I agree: it does NOT sound normal.


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## crunchymamatobe (Jul 8, 2004)

You mention that he naps until 4pm some days... When our son was in that age range, we noticed a relationship between napping until 4 or 4:30 and waking the next day at 5 or 5:30. We started waking him by 3:30 and it helped the early morning wakings somewhat. Although, getting him to sleep earlier in the afternoon wasn't easy at all until we forced him to drop his morning nap around 14-15 months.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

I wanted to come back and add that my son dropped to one mid-day nap at around 8 months. It seemed really early to me and would never have occured to me until I mentioned to my SIL that it was taking literally HOURS to get him to sleep tonight. It helped...a whole lot. I spend a few days of making sure we were out of the house doing something fun when he would normally get drowsy in the afternoon (I don't know about your DS but mine will happily forgo sleep if there's something exciting going on) and sure enough, it really helped in the getting him to sleep at night. He still slept like crap but I wasn't spending hours banging my head against the wall.


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## BeantownBaby9 (Jan 15, 2009)

Catie, I have a different suggestion

My little Chase was 8mo when we hit rock bottom. Our story is identical to you and Liam. Waking EVERY.DAMN.45.MINUTES, nursing all night, bobbing his head in pain, and at that time maxed out on Prevacid. It was horrible. I hated being a mom and my kid was just, different. We are miles away from those bad days now....

We took him to a GI at Childrens and they did an occult stool sample. Blood in the stool caused by allergies was the diagnosis, but he tested negative to all his IgE mediated tests. I paid for IgG allergy tests for BOTH OF US, via Alletess medical ($360 total). It revealed Chase's biggest allergens, and mine, but did miss a few. Oh and in the middle of all this, we weaned him off 30mg of Prevacid, and found that all that time, the Prev wasn't doing anything, b/c off the meds he was still symptomatic. He immediately got better with pulling both he and my infraction foods, but he did still have some reactions, so the IgG tests missed his allergy to beef and butternut squash. The doc finally put us on a no-solids diet for DS, only BM and Elecare, an elemental formula, to try to heal his gut. We have done that for almost 3 weeks, its been almost 2 weeks no beef, and I had a different kid. Calm, sleeping, nice, happy, snuggly, etc......If you want, go read our detailed journey in my blog.

Anyways, even though you have done EDs, I don't think you have found the culprit and I bet finding it and getting off the prev will aid in healing LIAM. I think you should see a Pedi GI that acknowledges IgG mediated allergies, or even a DAN! doctor (they are not just for ASD kids). The allergy board has been a lifesaver for me, and they have not only helped my son, but hugely helped me heal. Best of luck in getting some Z's but know there is light at the end of the tunnel.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I know a lot of you have been following my "depserate" thread, and I would've posted in there but I feel like this thought needs its own thread....

For those of you not familiar, here is the quick background/info..

-DS is 9 months old
-he wakes between 10-20 times a night, on average
-we cosleep
-the _longest_ stretch of sleep we have been getting recently is 1 hour
-his sleep has been getting progressively worse (shorter periods) as he has gotten older
-he fights sleep, which has also gotten worse as he has gotten older
-he has reflux, for which he is on Prevacid
-also has food allergies, I've been on and off ED's and he's been tested
-he is high-needs/sensitive/spirited in every way
-I've read NCSS, and Sleepless in America
-we. have. tried. EVERYTHING.
-and every combination of everything.

I know my son. I know something is wrong. It cannot be 'normal' for a 9-month old to wake up 20 times in a 9-10 hour period. He is not happy, he is chronically overtired. I have tried everything I can, and nothing at all. We can't break the cycle.

He seems to have some sort of insomnia or something. Lately we've had a few 'good' nights, where he will sleep for an hour at a time, but over the last few weeks we've had a few nights like last night thrown in...

7:45- goes to sleep
8:30- first wakeup, nurse back to sleep
9:15- second wakeup, after this I join him in bed
then he proceeds to wake every 30-45 min or so (I vaguely remember..)
3:30-5- spends this time in and out of sleep.. fussing, rolling around.. like he is TRYING so hard to sleep, but can't and WANTS to sleep, but can't.
5:45-wake up and nurse back to sleep
6:30- up for the day (this was actually sleeping in.. he has been waking at 5 the last few weeks)

He doesn't just wake up, roll over and nurse and go back to sleep. He wakes up and fusses/cries, I try to nurse, he refuses, I switch sides, he refuses, I switch sides again he finally nurses. It isn't a habit, it isn't that he is waking up because he wants milk and wants to nurse. He is waking up and he can't help it and he wants to sleep but he can't.

Now the point of this thread---

*Have any of you taken your DC to a sleep specialist? How old were they? Will they even see a baby under 1 year old? What could they even do to help?* I have heard of giving children melatonin, but DS is probably too young for that.

No matter how perfectly I orchestrate our day, stay on schedule, go off schedule, etc etc, *NOTHING MAKES A DIFFERENCE!*

My ds ws like this and I just chalked it up tp him being a crappy sleeper. I did not worry about reflux or food allergies. Slowly it went away. He was a frequent nurser. It cut back to eight times around 13 months and then 5 at 18. It stayed 3-5 till around 28 months. And now he is 1-2 at 33 months. It will get better I think nine months is young to go to to a sleep specialist who is only about CIO. They wrote the book on it.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeantownBaby9* 
Catie, I have a different suggestion

My little Chase was 8mo when we hit rock bottom. Our story is identical to you and Liam. Waking EVERY.DAMN.45.MINUTES, nursing all night, bobbing his head in pain, and at that time maxed out on Prevacid. It was horrible. I hated being a mom and my kid was just, different. We are miles away from those bad days now....

We took him to a GI at Childrens and they did an occult stool sample. Blood in the stool caused by allergies was the diagnosis, but he tested negative to all his IgE mediated tests. I paid for IgG allergy tests for BOTH OF US, via Alletess medical ($360 total). It revealed Chase's biggest allergens, and mine, but did miss a few. Oh and in the middle of all this, we weaned him off 30mg of Prevacid, and found that all that time, the Prev wasn't doing anything, b/c off the meds he was still symptomatic. He immediately got better with pulling both he and my infraction foods, but he did still have some reactions, so the IgG tests missed his allergy to beef and butternut squash. The doc finally put us on a no-solids diet for DS, only BM and Elecare, an elemental formula, to try to heal his gut. We have done that for almost 3 weeks, its been almost 2 weeks no beef, and I had a different kid. Calm, sleeping, nice, happy, snuggly, etc......If you want, go read our detailed journey in my blog.

Anyways, even though you have done EDs, I don't think you have found the culprit and I bet finding it and getting off the prev will aid in healing LIAM. I think you should see a Pedi GI that acknowledges IgG mediated allergies, or even a DAN! doctor (they are not just for ASD kids). The allergy board has been a lifesaver for me, and they have not only helped my son, but hugely helped me heal. Best of luck in getting some Z's but know there is light at the end of the tunnel.


Thank you for this, Erin! My gut tells me that the allergies are the main cause of it all... We actually had him tested Monday for the IgG allergies, and we will get the results this coming Monday! What is a DAN doctor?

I'm so glad you got things figured out for your little one. Thanks again for the encouragement to see this allergy thing through to the end.


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## BeantownBaby9 (Jan 15, 2009)

oh Catie I am very happy for you! who did you use for your IgG testing and was it ALCAT or ELISA type testing? A DAN! doctor is a doc that treats autistic kids (DAN! stands for Defeat Autism Now), but they can see non-ASD patients as well, usually as an environmental medicine specialty. They are very experienced with treating "leaky gut", which is essentially the cause of IgG mediated allergies. So many ASD kids suffer from allergies, the most frequent are gluten and casein. These doctors are experienced with medical and homeopathic remedies to treat leaky gut, and they are intimately involved with IgG mediated allergies (whereas sometimes allergists and GI's brush them off). They also know what tests to run beyond IgG, like OAT tests to find the levels of gut yeast. We started to reintroduce solids again yesterday and I am not confident his gut has healed enough to be ready for them, so depending on the final result of this 4 day food trial, that will determine whether I keep my DAN! appt in June.

Just so you know, and any other mommas out there that think their sleep issues may be a result of allergies, you are about to jump off a cliff. You may not always have the support of your DH (because they are DH's, stupid boys that need verification of things via it smacking them in the face, like a rash within an hour, versus an attitude change hours later they will attribute to "being 1") , you may loose some of your favorite foods, eating out may seem harder and more frustrating than solving world peace, and your grocery bill may skyrocket. But it is soooo worth it, soooooo worth it.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeantownBaby9* 
oh Catie I am very happy for you! who did you use for your IgG testing and was it ALCAT or ELISA type testing? A DAN! doctor is a doc that treats autistic kids (DAN! stands for Defeat Autism Now), but they can see non-ASD patients as well, usually as an environmental medicine specialty. They are very experienced with treating "leaky gut", which is essentially the cause of IgG mediated allergies. So many ASD kids suffer from allergies, the most frequent are gluten and casein. These doctors are experienced with medical and homeopathic remedies to treat leaky gut, and they are intimately involved with IgG mediated allergies (whereas sometimes allergists and GI's brush them off). They also know what tests to run beyond IgG, like OAT tests to find the levels of gut yeast. We started to reintroduce solids again yesterday and I am not confident his gut has healed enough to be ready for them, so depending on the final result of this 4 day food trial, that will determine whether I keep my DAN! appt in June.

Just so you know, and any other mommas out there that think their sleep issues may be a result of allergies, you are about to jump off a cliff. You may not always have the support of your DH (because they are DH's, stupid boys that need verification of things via it smacking them in the face, like a rash within an hour, versus an attitude change hours later they will attribute to "being 1") , you may loose some of your favorite foods, eating out may seem harder and more frustrating than solving world peace, and your grocery bill may skyrocket. But it is soooo worth it, soooooo worth it.

My ped actually ordered the tests, we just went to a lab and had blood taken. I am honestly not sure what type it is (i thought it was RAST, but that might be the skin test...







) my brain is just so fried right now....

He def has the casein allergy, I haven't been able to have dairy since he was about 4 weeks old. And his skin allergy test came back positive for wheat, so he could have the gluten allergy as well.

He still doesn't eat a whole lot of solids, especially with the allergies I have been hesitant to feed him much. But he is still obviously thriving from BM (if you look at the link in my sig, you can see his 9 month pics.. he is a CHUB!) so I am not too worried about that yet.

I am very lucky to have a very supportive DH. He is getting a little tired of me going on and off these ED's but, he wants us to get some more sleep just as much as I do. He used to sleep through all the wakings, but now that Liam is waking up and crying, he doesn't sleep through it anymore. We are all exhausted. :yawning:

Just curious, how does your DS do with caffiene? I don't have a lot of it (one soda a day







) but it is pretty much what gets me through the day until the evening when DH gets home and I get a little break... but I'm beginning to think I should cut that out too.....


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## BeantownBaby9 (Jan 15, 2009)

if your ped ordered them, its like IgE Rasts and not IgG, which is good as well, but may not give you the full picture. See what comes back on Monday, but I would guess you will get at least GFCF from his tests, maybe even egg and soy.

Having a supportive DH will help you get through this. Mine likes doctors way too much, and doesn't trust my mommy instincts enough yet. He's getting there though, but I know a lot of mommas on the allergy board seem to struggle with getting their DH's on board. My hubs just can't fathom that DS is allergic to all the crazy things he's allergic to, and it blocks his judgment. It just takes them time to come around to all this, whereas us mommas just dive right in and usually get it

I try to eat TF (Traditional Foods), and have never really needed caffine, so I can't tell you what soda or coffee does to DS b/c he's never had it except 1 chai frappuccino 2 days before he was born. I would junk it though, if you can, and look to vitamins and mineral supplementation to help with your energy level. I take CLO, probiotics, Cal/Mg+D, Zinc+C losenges, and Thorne's Basic B Complex. These also help make up for lost nutrients from all the EDs


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bstandlee* 

Anyway, through biofeedback we identified each of his allergy triggers: no more guessing or eliminating. It was such a relief. The first one she found was a reaction to maltose, which is the sugar found in all grains. Between that and corn we NEVER would have figured it out on our own! I would recommend searching out a naturopath along with someone who is trained in the allergy elimination technique (you can google it and there are threads about it in the allergy forum here). Good luck! Follow your gut. I agree: it does NOT sound normal.









i really agree it sounds like food allergies/sensitivities to me. i just started a blood type diet myself, which has me thinking...OP, do you happen to know your son's blood type?


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## flower16 (Jun 2, 2009)

I am going to play devils advocate here. I am NOT a proponent of CIO,but I would like to make an argument and see what people think. We were having major sleep issues with my Dd, although never 10-20 times per night. As parents we are supposed to help are children to be safe, fed, loved and well rested. In addition, we often accidentally teach our babies poor sleep associations, robbing them of the ability to learn how to fall asleep. Sleep is a very important part a child's growth and development. If your baby is tired all of the time, they do not explore or learn as well. And we were all miserable without sleep, my husband and I traded naps on our days together, and I was a zombie most of the time. What kind of balance is this? Not even getting to enjoy our baby as a family because of sleep deprivation. Not to mention our Dd with bags under her eyes. How is this affecting the baby? We did consider CIO, and to tell you the truth I am not that against it, I have known people whose babies cried an hour one night, 15 minutes the next and then that was it. Does everyone really think that a couple of hours of crying is worse than not sleeping for a year, not taking your baby to do as many fun things, or have quality family time because everbody is too tired? Helping your baby to learn how to sleep is our job, because who else are they going to learn it from. What does everyone think of this?


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## flower16 (Jun 2, 2009)

1


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

Flower16, I think you make good points about everyone being tired and that not being good for the whole family. I agree that sleep is important for growth and development for the baby. But I don't think CIO is the only way to learn to sleep. And I would venture to guess that an AP-parented, cosleeping since birth, nursed at every half-waking baby is not going to cry one hour the first night, 15 minutes the second night and then forever sleep 7pm-7am every night after that. Plus, all the CIO parents I know have to continually repeat the CIO sleep "training" after every illness, travel, teething, etc. (Although they assure me it goes much faster the subsequent times.)

I helped my babies learn to sleep. I did not wait patiently like most of the mamas here for them to learn on their own. I finally night weaned them at 22.5 months and that is when they at long last started to STTN. I am glad I did it. I cannot believe I did not do it sooner. I don't think they are getting any more sleep than they did before, but I sure am. I feel like a new woman!


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I don't think you can "teach" a child to fall asleep. I do think you can "teach" a child to give up on ever being helped by his/her parents at night. That's why CIO is wrong, wrong, wrong. And what do you mean "who are they going to learn it from if they don't learn it from their parents"? That's nonsensical. We're animals. Sleep is just something we do, like breathing. You can't teach someone to breathe, either.

I seriously never thought my son would sleep through the night. It was horrible and rough. But you know, he's been sleeping through the night for almost a year now, *and I didn't do anything special to MAKE him do it*! He was just all of a sudden capable / ready / over whatever was bugging him.

So, as much as people like to justify CIO by saying parents need to teach kids to sleep, as far as I'm concerned it's just rationalization by exhausted parents who want to do what is *easiest for them* and ignore the needs of their children at night.


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## CJ's mommy (May 27, 2005)

I just wanted to let you know that caffiene really bothered all of my kids. I was able to drink a decaf coffee a day, but if I had a coke or pepsi late in the day it would kill them. They would be up in the night crying, sometimes for a few hours. My youngest is 2 1/2 and sometimes still caffiene will bother her.

I hope that you find some relief soon. Finally at just over 2 my youngest started sleeping for long stretches.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower16* 
I am going to play devils advocate here. I am NOT a proponent of CIO,but I would like to make an argument and see what people think. We were having major sleep issues with my Dd, although never 10-20 times per night. As parents we are supposed to help are children to be safe, fed, loved and well rested. In addition, we often accidentally teach our babies poor sleep associations, robbing them of the ability to learn how to fall asleep. Sleep is a very important part a child's growth and development. If your baby is tired all of the time, they do not explore or learn as well. And we were all miserable without sleep, my husband and I traded naps on our days together, and I was a zombie most of the time. What kind of balance is this? Not even getting to enjoy our baby as a family because of sleep deprivation. Not to mention our Dd with bags under her eyes. How is this affecting the baby? We did consider CIO, and to tell you the truth I am not that against it, I have known people whose babies cried an hour one night, 15 minutes the next and then that was it. Does everyone really think that a couple of hours of crying is worse than not sleeping for a year, not taking your baby to do as many fun things, or have quality family time because everbody is too tired? Helping your baby to learn how to sleep is our job, because who else are they going to learn it from. What does everyone think of this?


You have some good points, but CIO wouldn't work at all with my DS. He'd cry for hours and hours and hours.. and would NOT be a happy baby during the day. He is a very sensitive, attached little boy. He would feel I was abandoning him, and I could never do that to him.

Babies learn to sleep by their parents teaching them, sure. They can be taught by CIO, learning that when their parents say it is time for bed they better go to sleep because their parents will not be there if they need them.







Or, they can learn over the course of months, or years, that sleep is a natural, good, pleasant experience, by cosleeping and being soothed to sleep and one day they will grow out of the need for our help to sleep and learn to do it on their own. I would much rather the latter, even if I am a zombie for a little while.

And like I said, CIO wouldn't work for Liam. And I am trying to figure out the reason WHY he isn't sleeping. I, of course, realize that night-waking is completely normal, I never STTN ever.. But waking every 30 minutes in obvious discomfort is not normal. CIO would only ignore the underlying issue, and teach him that I don't care and I'm not there when he needs me unless it is convenient for me. I didn't choose to have a baby so I could be his Mama during the day, and ignore him at night.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeantownBaby9* 
if your ped ordered them, its like IgE Rasts and not IgG, which is good as well, but may not give you the full picture. See what comes back on Monday, but I would guess you will get at least GFCF from his tests, maybe even egg and soy.

Having a supportive DH will help you get through this. Mine likes doctors way too much, and doesn't trust my mommy instincts enough yet. He's getting there though, but I know a lot of mommas on the allergy board seem to struggle with getting their DH's on board. My hubs just can't fathom that DS is allergic to all the crazy things he's allergic to, and it blocks his judgment. It just takes them time to come around to all this, whereas us mommas just dive right in and usually get it

I try to eat TF (Traditional Foods), and have never really needed caffine, so I can't tell you what soda or coffee does to DS b/c he's never had it except 1 chai frappuccino 2 days before he was born. I would junk it though, if you can, and look to vitamins and mineral supplementation to help with your energy level. I take CLO, probiotics, Cal/Mg+D, Zinc+C losenges, and Thorne's Basic B Complex. These also help make up for lost nutrients from all the EDs

I got a Calc/Mg+Zinc supplement, and my prenatal vitamins have the B complex stuff in it. So we will see if that helps!

What is the difference in IgG and IgE? And how would I get him tested for IgG? Would that not be a blood test? It was a $250 test (they tested 20 foods I think), if that makes a difference? I will ask when I call on Monday for the results.

I know I need to get off the soda... I am just addicted!!!







Starting Monday, I'm off caffiene, and all of the allergens (again) for real this time...









FWIW, last night was actually much better... He slept for 2 hours when he first went down, then up hourly till about 4, then every 30 minutes till 5:30 and up for good. So, still a pretty horrid night, but better than usual..


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Go for it. If you don't like the advice they give you, you don't have to take it!

Also wanted to say: I can totally relate. We went through the exact same thing; waking all night long and only sleeping 30-45 minute stretches.

It did eventually get better, and starting at a little past 2 yrs old DS started sleeping through the night. I never thought it would happen! But once his last molars came through, it did.

I understand the exhaustion and the desperation. Good luck!!!!!!

Same. My two oldest never slept a whole hour at a time until they were toddlers! And the 5 year old has yet to ever sleep through a night. But our situation did improve. Slowly, but it did. #3 is a slleper-- 5 hrs at a time @ night. It's incredible, really.


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## flower16 (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi everyone. I just wanted to clarify that I am NOT a proponent of CIO. In fact I just left my pedatrician because he thought that was the only answer to my sleep problem and started trying to scare me into it, along with other things. The reason I even brought this up was because I do have a friend that was AP to the core but at ten months after months of colic, baby waking all night since birth, she said he had huge black circles under his eyes, was tired all ttime, and she let her baby CIO. He now sleeps 12 hours a night every night, and feels he is actually much happier now that he sleeps. I am not saying I think it is for your baby Lady Katherine, but I am the type that is not convinced that there is a one size fits approach, even AP, for every baby. I also am not convinced babies can not be "trained". Because I know I have accidentally "trained" my baby to think she can not sleep without being bounced, after finding this was a good technique to keep her calm and happy when she was a newbie. It kept getting worse and worse to the point she would finish breastfeeding and then expect to be bounced at all times of the night. She wouldn't even fall asleep breastfeeding anymore, let alone anyway else. I was on the yoga ball half of every day for months. I never even had time to cook myself a healthy meal anymore. She is a catnapper, and for 4+ naps/day I was bouncing up to 45minutes at a time. And my husbands back was aching, and we thought, she is only going to get heavier, and we were physically exhausted. So we gently retrained her not to need the yoga ball to fall asleep. There was a little crying, but we never left her side and she was in our arms most of the time. It was rough, but now she doesn't need bouncing to sleep. So I believe babies do devolop very strong sleep associations that can prevent them from sleeping if that association is not present. In Pantley's no cry sleep solution she talks about gentle ways of removing these associations.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Worth a shot. Worse comes to worse they tell you to let him cry alone in a crib and you tell them to shove it.

While you're figuring that out, have you tried taking a nap with him outdoors? At the very least he might be content to sit and watch the world while *you* sleep.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Worth a shot. Worse comes to worse they tell you to let him cry alone in a crib and you tell them to shove it.

While you're figuring that out, have you tried taking a nap with him outdoors? At the very least he might be content to sit and watch the world while *you* sleep.

he definitely wouldn't sleep, it has to be dark and QUIET...







and whenever we are outside he wants to EXPLORE, ie EAT EVERYTHING (sticks, pollen sacks, leaves...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
he probably does need to go to bed earlier. I have tried a few times, but since it is still so light outside, and DH is just getting home (big overstimulation there!) and we eat at 6ish, it just never happens. Ideally I think he'd do great to go to bed at 7. But it never happens.









Said in the most gentle way I can, I think you need to make it a priority to make this happen for a while. Our sleep issues with my son were nothing compared to yours, but for about a 6-month time period he saw his daddy for about 15 min a day when he got home from work, and we ate dinner after he fell asleep (around 7pm). It was hte only way he could get even remotely close to enough sleep, his sleep cycles were tenuous for so long. I had him completely ready for bed by the time DH got home from work at 6:30pm, they played for 15 min together, I put him to bed, and then DH and I hung out and ate dinner. It wasn't great for family time during the week, but it was necessary for overall family harmony and health. To this day if we miss my son's (still very early for 5 years old) bedtime by as little as 15 minutes, he'll be awake an hour and a half earlier than he should be every day. TO facilitate the earlier bedtime, I'd second what another PP suggested about slowly ticking his afternoon naptime back by 10-15 min a day until he's waking up by 3, 3:30. We always worked our sleep routine backwards from his wakeup time through the night before, instead of from wakeup time through the day, if that makes any sense. The later he would go to sleep, the earlier he would wake up. And it's still that way, even at 5.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 







: If he still has sleep windows every two hours, put him down! I know it can be miserable to not eat at a decent hour, slip out of church at weird times, arrive at family get togethers late, or cut short errands, but it sounds like he needs you to really stay on top of his sleep window.

With the extent it is disrupting your family, his sleep takes precedence for a while.









:


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

I think you know your baby and so if you think you should go to the doc, go.

That being said, DD went through something similar. We were loving her to sleep, rocking, nursing (until she refused to nurse anymore) coslept etc...

It didn't work.

Turns out, as she got older, she needed us to step back and let her manage her sleep.

Every kid has their own personality and needs when it comes to sleep. It might be allergies. It might be that a baby is ready for a little more sleep independence. No one thing works for all kids.

Anyway, for us, we stepped back. She fussed in a winding down sort of way and while we didn't ignore her cries, we didn't save her either. We would reassure her, constantly check on her, resettle her and give her some more time. Sometimes we stayed in the room and we still roomed in for several months until she was sleeping well, so she was never left alone to just scream (and we would not do that anyway).

Turns out that's what she needed. Some space to decompress and go to sleep on her own. To this day, she'll sometimes talk and chatter away in her crib for up to an hour before she falls asleep (and obviously if she cries we respond b/c it means something is wrong).

It's just her personality and while having mommy rock her to sleep for an hour or two every night and be available all night long was cozy, no one was sleeping--it was too stimulating for her as she got older and didn't allow her to relax and sleep on her own. Anyway, once she was sleeping well with the new routine, we moved her to her own room, around 11 months.

I also do think sleep is a learned skill and we all have to figure it out on our own, it can't be managed by someone else. Everyone has their own learning curve and style so I'm a fan of always trying something different until something works.

So keep an open mind. The AP ideal is nice as is co-sleeping, but babies haven't read those books and their needs and personalities come in all sorts of flavors.

V


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

We had the same problem w/ DS1 waking every 45 minutes and it was a KILLER. I seriously thought I was losing my mind. I think I've read every sleep book there is, and we tried variations of everything short of CIO. IMO, CIO won't work w/ a spirited child, for the reasons you (OP) already stated. Anyway, we kept trying to gently night wean and it finally happened at 18 mo and then he started sleeping a little better. He had allergies too, but we never really pinned them down and he eventually outgrew them. Now at 4 he's still not the greatest sleeper, but he does sleep! So my (maybe depressing) point is that no matter what you do or don't do, at some point your LO will sleep better. Hang in there!

And on a happy note, DS2 was 100x a better sleeper from birth and the only thing I did differently was avoid dairy in our diets for the first 9 months. It does sound like your DS suffers from physical discomfort/allergies, but I think some kids are just bad sleepers. My DH is and he's 41!


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