# Spinoff: Would you let your child try an alcoholic drink?



## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

The other thread about drinking on a playdate got me thinking, is it acceptable to let your child try a small taste of your glass of wine/beer/drink? I remember as a child I always wanted to see what my stepfather's beer tasted like. For a long time he wouldn't let me, and it became a personal mission of mine. Around the time I was 8 he offered me a tiny sip. I tried it and thought it was the nastiest thing ever!

Before getting pregnant with DS, I would sometimes have a glass of wine in front of him. He always wanted to try some, and for a long time I would tell him it was a grown up drink. Then one day I decided it wouldn't harm him to just have a tiny taste. So I dipped my finger in and let him tast a drop. He liked it but I explained it was an adult drink and he could not drink it until he was older.

How would you feel if your child saw you having a drink and asked for a taste? Would you allow it? How much would you let him/her have? Do you explain that is is not for children?


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Dh and I are debating this currently. HE doesn't want the children to see alcohol as a taboo. He feels if we are open about it they will be less likely to abuse it. My concern is that if there is an issue with addictive personalities then you are ONLY contributing to it. I am curious too. I wish I had more to offer BUT I am torn on this issue because Dh has made some valid points BUT I am still worried about it.


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

I wouldn't, primarily because we don't drink. I go back and forth on the Pepsi issue though. I have one on occasion but don't want my kids to. I tell them it's for adults only, but then I don't want to glamourize it either, yk?


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

I've let my daughter have sips of beer and wine. I wouldn't feel comfortable with letting her taste a hard alcohol drink. I've told her that it's for grown-ups and that when she is a grown-up lady she can have a glass of wine or a beer.

My dh is Swiss and it's very common to let kids have a little wine or beer there, as well as in many other European countries. I personally think that making it absolutely verboten makes it more tantalizing. So a sip here and there would be okay with me, as would a tiny glass of wine/champagne on a special occassion for a slightly older child (I'm not going to do this when she's a toddler!). But I would not buy my kids beer or let them drink any more than that until they are of legal age.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Yes. I have on numerous occasions in the past, and I'm sure I will in the future as well.

That said, most of the time, I don't offer a taste to my children. When I'm drinking an adult beverage, I simply tell my children than my drink has alcohol in it, and it's not for children. I especially never let them try any mixed drinks or anything I think they might really like (such as a hard lemonade). However, during special occasion dinners, I do allow each of my children to have a sip of wine. If my children actually *liked* the wine, I might serve them a glass of diluted wine with dinner- but none of my kids like it enough to drink an entire glass. For special occasions, I'll sometimes buy sparkling cider or non-alcoholic 'fake' wine/champaign for my kids to drink. I have a great picture of all 4 of my kids toasting the New Year (2006), drinking sparkling grape juice out of REAL wine glasses. They had such a blast.

I don't want alcohol to be forbidden fruit, but I also model responsible alcohol consumption.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

I have no problem with my dd (and later ds) having a sip of wine or beer. About a week ago I had a small glass of Baileys and she wanted t know what it was, I explained it to her and offered her a taste (just a taste), she didn't even like the smell of it and wouldn't drink it. Fine with me. We've also used whiskey for teething. DD likes to take an occasional sip of FIL's beer too. It's not a big deal to us, and like other posters we want to model responsible consumption of alcohol.


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## goosysmom (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
I've let my daughter have sips of beer and wine. I wouldn't feel comfortable with letting her taste a hard alcohol drink. I've told her that it's for grown-ups and that when she is a grown-up lady she can have a glass of wine or a beer.

My dh is Swiss and it's very common to let kids have a little wine or beer there, as well as in many other European countries. I personally think that making it absolutely verboten makes it more tantalizing. So a sip here and there would be okay with me, as would a tiny glass of wine/champagne on a special occassion for a slightly older child (I'm not going to do this when she's a toddler!). But I would not buy my kids beer or let them drink any more than that until they are of legal age.


I come from a strong Italian/Greek family and grew up with taking sips of wine here and there and with a teeny tiny glass of champagne at Christmas time....when I was older, not toddler or just a bit older....neither of my parents drank alot...I went through a period where I drank alot mainly due to the fact that I was a young bartender and it was free...LOL

My little one wanted a taste of my pink drink a month or so ago (White Zin, my first glass in I don't know how long...LOL) and said YUK! and that was that.

Last night, DH and I opened up our Anninversary champagne from 3 weeks ago that never got opened and she wanted a taste of that so I let her have a sip or two...she really liked it...YUUUUMMMMMY!! Fruity mommy.....and wanted more but understood that she got 2 sips and that was that...she went off to play..

I saw too many of my friends parents buy their alcohol for them and where it led with alot of them when they were younger....I too believe that by making it totally taboo, makes them want to try it even more....JMO....

My little girl is just over 2 1/2 right now..about the same age when I had my first sip of Champagne...still my favorite...LOL....


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Yup. I have and will continue to do. I see no issue w/ it.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I don't see a huge problem with just a taste. My dad used to let me have a sip of his beer. It was yummy! I still like beer, but only have 1-2 beers a month.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I have in the past and will in the future if they ask for a taste. I explained to my son that, since he weighs so much less than me, he has to drink much less of it than I do, but when he's as big as me or dad, he can have a normal amount if he wants it. I also explained to him that mass quantities of it are not healthy for anyone.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would. That's how we grew up. As a result (I think...) I have no issues with alcohol. (and this is with a significant family history of alcoholism) I can have a drink or two once in awhile.

-Angela


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

My dds have a glass of diluted wine with Friday and holiday dinners.


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Yup. I just pour the vodka right into the sippy!!

J/K, of course. But when I drink, which is rare, they usually ask for a taste and I usually oblige.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I'm not sure at what age I'll allow a sip (DS is 3 and DD is only a year and a half) but when we get to that point I don't have an issue with tasting. I remember my dad letting me taste the "foam" on his beer (icked me out) and dipping my finger in creme de mint (after dinner drink) and tasting that. In my mind as a child, I didn't categorize them as "OOOOH, ALCOHOL!" but rather just something vaguely intriguing that grown-ups consumed, like coffee or steak tartare.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

I can remember having a sip of my mothers beer when I was little, it tasted gross. Then, when I was 8 I was at a wedding and my mom was drinking a wiskey sour I wanted a sip. She gave me one. No big deal.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Yes.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I've let them have tiny sips. Since they knock back a communion shot glass of wine every week, a sip doesn't seem like a big deal.


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

no.

And yes I have issues.

But I also believe that on a celular level our bodies(and those of our children) will remember that alcohol and could possibly set them up for alcoholism in the future. Also I have major allergies to most alcohol so I don't want my kids to experience what I go through.

I don't know why I think like this. I'm trying to lighten up.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

No, no, no, no and no I wouldn't allow my son to taste it.

My decision stems from a childhood surrounded by alcoholics.

I was at a barbeque with my son last year and one of the women there went to put a son to my sons mouth and I hit the roof. She tried to laugh it off and made a comment about it helping the sniffles that he had.

My opinions I guess, are just a product of my experiences


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I think it depends on the age. My little girl will be 2 at the end of the month, so NO! But, after the age of 10, probably.

When dh was 12, his family moved from one house to another. He was the one who did the majority of the moving things off and on the truck. He also did a LOT of packing (mainly his older sisters room, who was a pack rat.) So at the end of the day, his mom offered him a beer along with his older sisters friend who helped that day. That's the kind of stuff I could see offering some alcohol for. Also, at special family dinners, I have no problem with them having some wine (probably half a glass.)


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

We don't drink so no we would not let DS try an alcoholic beverage.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes, my dc are welcome to try wine or beer. I don't let them try the hard stuff, except for a bit of whiskey, honey & lemon used medicinally.

We do have friends that are uncomfortable with giving children alcohol and we respect that when we hang out with them. We just told the kids the situation and they don't ask when our friends are around.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm rethinking this one. I've always told my toddler NO when we've had beer, but I think now that a sip or two, even for a toddler would be OK.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I should add that my DS was 3 when I let him taste a drop of wine on my finger. I really think he's more in awe of the wine glass, he loves the way the glass looks and always wants to hold it. I like the idea of giving children sparkling cider in fancy glasses on holidays. I'm going to get DS some sparkling cider for Thanksgiving this year. I think he'd love that!


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Sure they can have a taste. Hopefully they dont like it though. I couldn't afford to buy wine for 3 of us.

(JUST TEASING! I havent even had a drink since April)


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I would. That's how we grew up. As a result (I think...) I have no issues with alcohol. (and this is with a significant family history of alcoholism) I can have a drink or two once in awhile.

-Angela

First off I have to say I LOVE your imput. You always seem to help me see things. I feel better with DH's stances on this issue now that I have read your post. If you allow it as a low key non-chalant approach they are less likely to have issues with it later. If they do they do. I'll just do what I can to help them through it. My thing (and DH's too) is that we don't want the children to feel they need to hide things from us the way we had to hide things from our parents (we're BOTH Preachers kids). I LOVE my children and want them to feel open with us. KWIM? I LOVE you Angela.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

This is a strange read. I'm sure to get flamed







for this... but here goes anyway...

So many moms and dads extoll the virtues of natural living, natural parenting, organic foods, cloth diapering, attachment parenting, gentle discipline, and the many other glowing examples of child-oriented, nurturing and loving family-practices. ALCOHOL??? Am I the only one who sees a conversation about giving children alcohol as an insane one?

I have never been an extremist on ANY topic... what works for one family, does not for another... fine with me. But ALCOHOL. Seriously. In our society, the consumption of herbal remedies is scorned by the FDA but the consuption of alcohol as a means to "unwind" is "normal", embraced even, and encouraged. Regardless of decades of hard evidence that this very behavior is what leads people into social alcoholism and beyond.

My family is Irish. We have generations upon generations of alcoholism in our blood... I have an ALARMING tolerance, myself, and avoid over-indulgence... (Too many 'learning experiences' in my 20's) DH doesn't drink but MAYBE a beer a month, as an Asian he lacks the enzyme to digest alcohol, so it's pretty toxic for him.

I remember having tastes of beer and wine, even a cocktail or 2 when I was a kid, like at 6 years old... It tasted horrible. Kids almost ALWAYS think it's gross. People say things like "You develope a taste for it", etc... There are REASONS it tastes yucky to children. 1) We're learning that children instinctively avoid things that they are allergic to, often. It makes sense to me that something like an alcoholic beverage, which is in effect poisonous (that's why we get drunk) is something that is yucky to them. 2) Humans lose something like 5000 or more tastebuds a YEAR, so when a grown-up suddenly 'developes a taste' for something, beer or broccoli, it's because enough tastebuds have been annihalated to not taste the yuckiness (poison) anymore...

Looking back now, I feel that my family of Irish drinkers was attempting to slowly introduce the poison into my system... the way allergy shots work, so as to innocculate me against it's effects, bolster my tolerance.

I can't believe I'm seeing "No Vax" parents say they give their kids alcohol. *Imogen* was it you who brought up cellular memory? I'm with you on it... And seriously AMAZED this conversation has taken the route it has. I'd load dd up with Twinkies, Gummy Bears, and White Bread before she'd have a sip of alcohol. (of course. she's 2. I may give her a sip when she's had her first menses, or something...)

Sorry to anyone I'm offending, honestly... I'm just in shock.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I was always allowed a small glass (like a shot glass 1/4 or 1/2 full) as a child, and I would do the same for my kids. Right now, my daughter has tasted beer, wine, and a margarita. She made a face for the beer, spit the wine back out, and liked the margarita (restaurant quality, not string at all -- just the way I like them!)

If we had a family history of alcoholism, I may be stricter, but as things are, I think it's healthier to not make it a taboo thing. I really don't like the idea of labeling certain things as "for adults only" and will not do so unless it's completely unavoidable (something like driving).


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Yes, we do. I grew up being allowed small portions of beer at family gatherings. I think it contributed to my healthy relationship with alcohol.

People can grow up and become addicted to prescription drugs, should I never give my child ibuprofen because it could cause celluar memory?

Honestly, I can see situations where it's not a good idea. But in a healthy family with no alcohol problems, what's the big deal? People in other countries give their kids wine with dinner and I don't see the country imploding. America has more than enough alcohol problems that our attitude of forbidding it for children and teens has not curbed at all.

And the carbs you would load your child up on could very well do way more damage to her body than a sip of alcohol. Diabetes anyone?

I don't see alcohol as inherently poisonous. Done in moderation, some kinds of alcohol are better for you than the fast food, soda, and other junk people consume.

I wish it were more the norm for at least teens to be allowed to drink. I think keeping it a forbidden fruit causes more problems than allowing children sips here and there with the family.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
So many moms and dads extoll the virtues of natural living, natural parenting, organic foods, cloth diapering, attachment parenting, gentle discipline, and the many other glowing examples of child-oriented, nurturing and loving family-practices. ALCOHOL??? Am I the only one who sees a conversation about giving children alcohol as an insane one?

What is so unnatural about drinking a glass of wine? In many cultures wine is served with every meal and children are allowed to enjoy a glass from a very young age. These children are generally raised to respect rather than abuse alcohol. It is when alcohol is off-limits that children become curious about it and eager to try it.

I am also talking about only giving my son a small taste. It's not like I pour him his own glass and watch him get smashed. I don't want alcohol to be so taboo to him that he takes up binge drinking as a teenager.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I can't believe I'm seeing "No Vax" parents say they give their kids alcohol.

I don't think this is a fair comparison at all. Vaccinations contain toxins that are dangerous to the human body. Wine is made from grapes - a naturally growing fruit. Things like acetone, anti-freeze, and thimerisol (sp?) are not natural. I don't think one has anything to do with the other.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Sure, we would allow him a sip if he asked. Alcohol is not a taboo in our family, and I don't see why we should treat it as something forbidden or wrong. He's ony 1 so I doubt he will ask any time soon but when he does I don't suppose he'll want any more than just a sip.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't see alcohol as unnatural. Wine has been around about 7000 years and it's an important part of world culture and history. I love wine, I love food, and pairing the right wine with great food is one of life's true pleasures. Wine is an important part of celebrations and gatherings for us, and one that I appreciate and hope to teach our children to enjoy too. All in good time, of course. I'm not setting up my three year old with a flight of reds to sample any time soon.


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## jaxinsmom (Jul 24, 2006)

dh and I have discussed this and agree with most of the other ppl that having a small glass of (watered down) wine with a meal every once in a while, like a special occasion is perfectly acceptable, and something we will introduce when ds is older ~ over 5.


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## psyche (Apr 6, 2005)

I allow my older son to have tiny sips of beer or wine. He doesn't like it. I don't see the problem - I was always allowed to try it when I was a child and I don't like it either. (So, really, he's tasting my husband's.) But I don't want it to be a taboo either- just something that is there, without mystique.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I, personally, only drink very rarely. DP has a beer at least weekly and the In-Laws enjoy a glass of wine. The kids are welcome to try any of those. They have also had sips of alcoholic ice cream drinks (mine).


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
What is so unnatural about drinking a glass of wine? In many cultures wine is served with every meal and children are allowed to enjoy a glass from a very young age. These children are generally raised to respect rather than abuse alcohol. It is when alcohol is off-limits that children become curious about it and eager to try it.

I never said wine is unnatural... I merely point out that the nurturing place we come from as parents hits a wall when we justify introducing toxins to our children that are known to be addictive and harmful. Children in other countries drinking alcohol is not a justification, it is another relative point of view; their whole social structure is different... In our culture, this "little-sippers" club is often what STARTS alcoholism in teens.

...Vaccinations contain toxins that are dangerous to the human body. Wine is made from grapes - a naturally growing fruit.

And the sugars created by fermenting the grapes are toxic, which is why our bodies immediately set about trying to reject it, which is what causes the intoxication... Even the word that denotes the feelings caused by drinking, INTOXICATION indicates the introduction of something toxic...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo* 
... I grew up being allowed small portions of beer at family gatherings. I think it contributed to my healthy relationship with alcohol.

I did, too, as did my mother... she's an active, in-denial alcoholic, I am not. People and families vary. I easily could have gone down that road, I chose not to. You sound like you chose not to, as well. Are you SURE your children will be as strong? How do we teach a respect for an addictive substance, while we preach Just Say No?

People can grow up and become addicted to prescription drugs, should I never give my child ibuprofen because it could cause celluar memory?

That's just silly.

Honestly, I can see situations where it's not a good idea. But in a healthy family with no alcohol problems, what's the big deal?

The big deal is that we have been CONDITIONED to ignore the addictive nature of alcohol in our society, and we now nurture social alcoholism, which too often leads to much worse behaviors. I know PLENTY of people who came from these same "no alcohol problem families", and they STRUGGLE with addiction... "my parents weren't alcoholic, so I'm sure I'm fine..." <said by a binge drinker friend of mine days before he killed a family of 5 drunk driving.

And the carbs you would load your child up on could very well do way more damage to her body than a sip of alcohol. Diabetes anyone?

I would never actually give her this concoction of carbs; jeez!









I don't see alcohol as inherently poisonous. Done in moderation, some kinds of alcohol are better for you than the fast food, soda, and other junk people consume.

Alcohol, whether u "see it as inherently" so, or not, it is a PROVEN POISON... which is why people DIE from alcohol POISONING. The flush in our cheeks, the buzz, the drunk, is a product of our body's effort to process what it views as poison; the sugars it can't use, in a systemic reaction. There is no denying that studies have shown that the regular, minimal consumption of red wine has heart-healthy effects... for grown-ups. There is nothing healthy about giving a child alcohol, nutritionally, medicinally, nor psychologically.

I wish it were more the norm for at least teens to be allowed to drink. I think keeping it a forbidden fruit causes more problems than allowing children sips here and there with the family.

Simply put, it is a myth that we create a healthy foundation of respect and understanding for alcohol by introducing it to our children. The only way to do that is to model with your own behavior. Continue to be responsible with your own consumption, continue to show that it ISN'T necessary to drink until we are "of age"; it's something we may choose to do when we _are_ "of age". But I encourage moms and dads to think twice or THREE times about WHY they are doing this, what purpose will be served, and is there another way to serve that purpose?

With prayers and love, seriously~ Adult Child of Alcoholic...


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

I come from a long line of wine producers and grew up with a bottle of wine on the dinner table (and lunch table when with extended family) every evening. Children sipping wine was normal and not made an issue.

BUT I am not comfortable with my children being introduced to alcohol/wine/beer. Luckily my husband and I do not drink. I actually react badly to sulfites and even do not feel well after drinking organic wine.

Honestly, for me it is about their little growing bodies being as healthy as possible. Nothing to do with morality, taboos, etc. I also don't want them taking a tolk off a joint and I am all for legalizing pot, though I don't smoke. Pot is natural right? It doesn't make it healthy.
I also don't bring refined sugar, white flour, cow's milk into our house.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
In our culture, this "little-sippers" club is often what STARTS alcoholism in teens.

Do you have any evidence of that? I, for one, would like to see it. TIA


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

i will allow my kids to have a sip or a mini glass of wine at holiday dinners i was allowed sips when i was growing up and i was raised to know that it is not a everyday thing and to know when to stop not to drink to much i was below drinking age when i started to have my own drinks but i never got drunk i knew it was just something to be enjoyed i had friends that were never allowed to taste it and when they got in their teens they didnt know when or didnt want to stop


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Not now, no, he's only tiny, but at family dinners when he's older,(Maybe ten or eleven) a half a glass of wine? Yeah, I would let him have a half a glass.

I was never allowed alcohol, sparkling cider at Thanksgiving, Grape juice at church, that whole bag, and when I had a devious uncle give me alcohol for the first time at the age of 13 I got so drunk I threw up and passed out in my grandma's bathroom.

On the other hand, dh was allowed low alcoholic drinks and small glasses of wine at family functions (special occassions, mind you, not every day) and he has a very healthy attitude towards alcohol, always has.

Also, what is "of Age" 18? 19? 21? How arbitrary? Here in Argentina it's 18, but 16 with adult supervision. In many European countries there is no age limit at all. In the UK it's also 18. I can actually think of nothing more absurd than allowing a person the right to drive a ton of metal and flammable gas speeding down a crowded highway, the right to vote, the right to sign your life over to the military, the right to get married, or the right to destroy your financial life with credit debt, before you are allowed to buy a bottle wine. I mean, they'll let you buy CIGARETTES before you can buy alcohol in the States...what IS that?

Yeah, wine (especially red wine with all the tanins that cleanse cholesterol and keep your heart healthy) and bit of beer now and then? I'm not saying on an average Saturday, or every family dinner, but special occassions, parties? Yeah. I think that's okay. I never did like the whole "kids table" mentality.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

I would much rather model that you can drink and not get drunk. That you drink because you enjoy the taste, not to get drunk. And you do it in moderation.

I can't make sense of putting an arbitrary age on alcohol consumption.

Quote:

Are you SURE your children will be as strong? How do we teach a respect for an addictive substance, while we preach Just Say No?
I don't preach just say no, so it's not an issue. How do YOU know your children will be strong? How do you know they won't go crazy in their teens with the alcohol b/c they weren't allowed to have it and it was for "adults only"?

Quote:

The big deal is that we have been CONDITIONED to ignore the addictive nature of alcohol in our society, and we now nurture social alcoholism, which too often leads to much worse behaviors. I know PLENTY of people who came from these same "no alcohol problem families", and they STRUGGLE with addiction... "my parents weren't alcoholic, so I'm sure I'm fine..." <said by a binge drinker friend of mine days before he killed a family of 5 drunk driving.
And I know plenty of people who weren't allowed to taste drinks until they were 21 and grew up to be alcoholics. That's why you teach moderation. I'm choosing to do it by not completely forbidding. I'm not ignoring the addictive nature of alcohol. That's why I want my kids to learn that it's not a big deal and that you drink it in moderate amounts. Just like you don't binge on soda and other junk, alcohol is bad for you in large amounts. Still don't see what that has to do with letting your kid taste it.

Believe me, I have thought about this two, three times or more. I hope to pass down that alcohol is okay to drink in moderation, you don't drink to get drunk, and you need to have a respect for yourself and others when you drink it. And it's not forbidden.

I don't think anybody's talking about a bottle of beer at the table for dinner every night for their four year old. I'm talking about a mouthful once in a great while when we drink, maybe a very small glass at the age of 10 or so. Again, once in awhile.

It worked really well for me so that's what I'm going with. It obviously didn't work for you so you're trying something else. More power to you. I hope it works out for both of us.

ETA - Okay, I had to pick up my son at martial arts so I ended that a little more abruptly than I would have liked. My point it, how do you assign an age where alcohol is okay? In my state it is legal to give your child alcohol in your own home, so there's no legalities involved. Is it 13? 15? 18? 21? How do you decide?

Some families don't drink at all and pass that value onto their kids. That's fine, I wouldn't expect parents to go outside their value system. We do drink and see no reason that alcohol should be forbidden. Children, like adults, should drink in accordance to their weight and experience and not enough to get drunk. Whether that's a mouthful at the age of 5, half a glass of wine at 12, or a full glass at 16 or 17. The benefit is they can share drinks with us and learn that alcohol is something you have to be careful with and drink responsibly.

It's not something you're going to do and that's fine. Don't assume I haven't given it any thought and, by default, am not doing what I think is best. Research and science may not prove me right but I don't think it proves you right either. Children, generally, can't drink and American colleges are full of binging alcoholics.

You think it's wrong, by all means don't do it. Just because it's something you chose not to do, doesn't make it wrong for everyone.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

We've let our kids taste beer and wine since toddlerhood. I actually quit drinking soda because I didn't want to model that, and I felt it was not right to drink it infront of them and not let them taste it. (I'm no saint, though, I've replaced soda with







.)

Our 6 and 4 year olds already know about being drunk--we've seen people drunk in the park. They're very familiar with the concept of moderation--a little is fine, healthy even, but a lot is not. We use this with sun exposure, sweets, dvd watching, wrestling/rough housing . . . they know there are consequences for getting out of balance.

As our kids get older, I expect that they'll make mistakes with balance in their lives. Dh and I will be there to help them sort it out and learn self- discipline and self-control. I can't forbid everything that they could go overboard with--afterall, some kids get submersed in a sport to the exclusion of all else, some can't stop talking on the phone, others are addicted to the computer, and then there's falling in love







: .

I want them to learn these things and develop the ability to handle them while they are still under our roof. That way, the risks are smaller, there's a safety net, and they're slowly learning to take care of themselves.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Probably not, but so far my kids have been fine with "It has beer in it" if we refuse them a sip of what we're drinking. But we don't give them soda or tea, either.

I don't know. Maybe when they're older, my oldest is nine, but right now I wouldn't. Don't have strong feelings either way, actually.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Beer and wine, sure. DH doesn't agree with it though (says it's illegal or something) My whole family are alcoholics, I am not and DH rarely ever drinks.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I was always allowed to taste beer and wine when I was a child. My parents made their own and practiced moderation and extreme care when drinking.

Dh and I cant stand beer or wine. We do like Smirnoff's flavored malt things but can barely drink a entire bottle TOGETHER









I wished we like wine as we now live in a land of vineyards and it would be fun to sample and find a favortie wine or 2...

I let my kids taste wine when I use it for cooking of when I have used it to help in the later stages of pregnancy. They cant stand it. Unfortunalty they like smirnoff's


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

This really is not a huge issue to me. Also, I cannot get behind it is unnatural argument. As pp mentioned it has been around for thousands of years and I love NT so I am all about fermentation







That said we very, very rarely drink around here. Dh grew up in a family that never drink- or it was extremely rare- My dad was an alcoholic(as are many people on both sides of my family). To me I would allow a small taste on occasion. It would never, ever be ok if someone else gave my dc anything at all- I would never buy my children alcohol either, regardless of their age.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Depends on the drink. I wouldn't let them have any liquor (and we don't drink beer) but I would definitely let them have a sip of my wine or even a small glass of diluted wine. I consider it food just like anything else. fine in moderation. They know about drunkeness and why it is bad. I am not concerned about them having an ounce or two of wine with a special meal.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
Do you have any evidence of that? I, for one, would like to see it. TIA

I suppose I am evidence of that. My parents make their own beer and wine and have since I was a baby. I was permitted a small glass of wine when company came, during holiday meals and other events. There are pictures of me at the age of 2 taking sips from my fathers beer.
Without going into the painful details I will say that my teenage years were horrible for me and my parents. I moved out at 15 was hospitalized and suspended from school for my bad choices involving alcohol and drugs. Although I will always take responsability for my actions, I believe that the way alcohol was viewed in my life played a role. My parents "said" it was OK for me to drink. They never ever "said" that it was ok, nor did they think it was--but this is how I interpreted their actions in my teen brain.
Neither DH nor I drink so it is a non-issue in our house. I'm not sure how I would handle it though. I'd like to think I could do something that my parents didn't--maybe explain it better. I don't know.
I may be an anomaly, I haven't done any research on the subject but I felt the need to reply. To be honest, this has been hard for me to "talk" about and I've stopped and restarted a bunch. I guess, in my case, it came down to the attitude. Alcohol was viewed as "no biggie" in my house, but the "teenage culture" of my friends said differently--way differently. I was not old or wise enough to see the difference and in my mind my parents permissiveness meant that it was ok. I don't know if this makes much sense as I am really tired







Interesting thread though!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

My kids have both asked for, and received sips of wine. DS, 7, hasn't liked anything enough to want a second taste. DD, 3 1/2 likes both my wine and DH's fake beer. She also has a major love of my morning lattes. So, she gets a sip or two when she asks, but no more than that. She gets her own mini-latte in the morning if she asks -- about 2 T of coffee and 1/2 a cup of milk.

They both routinely drink sparking cider or other non-alcoholic drinks in wine glasses on holidays. And they mostly like the virgin cocktails that I make for non-drinking DH. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine with most dinners and cocktails on occassion, so the kids see me drinking all the time. And I have absolutely no problem with that. It is part of my life and I'm not about to give it up for the kids.

I was raised with roughly the same attitude. It wasn't forbidden and it was a normal part of family life. At about age 13 I had the choice of wine or milk with dinner every night. As a result, I quickly developed a taste for really good chardonnay and never could stomach cheap beer or alcohol purchased and drank by my teenage friends. I was a very expensive date indeed. I've always, even as a teen and young adult, drunk responsiblity and in moderation. "Getting drunk" had no appeal, though good wine with a meal does. And I think that the "its just a part of life" attitude my parents took was a large part of that.

DH, on the other hand, is a sober-for-many-years alcohlic. He too is comfortable with this approach, though he admits that he'll watch closely when they are teens to make sure they aren't following in his footsteps.

I am very careful to model responsible, social drinking and I am blessed with a designated driver, which is wonderful helpful.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

To those who have mentioned allowing their children a half glass of wine - I get tipsy from a half glass. Imagine that much for a small developing body/brain??

Values, morals are not involved in my decision. It is simply a health issue for my family. I don't see why I would actively introduce something to my kids that is not healthy for their bodies just to (hypothetically) avoid it being extra desirable in the future.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
To those who have mentioned allowing their children a half glass of wine - I get tipsy from a half glass. Imagine that much for a small developing body/brain??

What do you mean by "children?" A 6 year old? I said in my post a 12 year old, and that's purely hypothetical since I only have an 8 year old who doesn't like beer or wine.

Should he change his mind later I'll take his age, weight, and experience into account.

I don't "actively introduce it" either. I never asked my son, "Want to try some beer?" He asked me if he could try it. He had one sip and hated it. I think years, at least 2, went by before he asked dh if he could try the red wine he was drinking. Dh gave him one sip. He hated that, too. Hasn't wanted to try anything since. We don't offer and should he ask, again, he'll be given a sip and how much more depends on his age and weight.

I don't know what some of you are picturing when you hear about parents not forbidding alcohol, but I'm starting to think it's not that close to at least my reality.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
Do you have any evidence of that? I, for one, would like to see it. TIA

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc.../dp/0553274872

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo* 
I would much rather model that you can drink and not get drunk. That you drink because you enjoy the taste, not to get drunk. And you do it in moderation.

I can't make sense of putting an arbitrary age on alcohol consumption.

I do agree there isn't some catch-all arbitrary age that is right tho...

I don't preach just say no, so it's not an issue. How do YOU know your children will be strong?

I don't, I just pray and try to be a strong model, I'm not perfect; my kids won't be either...

And I know plenty of people who weren't allowed to taste drinks until they were 21 and grew up to be alcoholics. That's why you teach moderation. I'm choosing to do it by not completely forbidding. I'm not ignoring the addictive nature of alcohol. That's why I want my kids to learn that it's not a big deal and that you drink it in moderate amounts. Just like you don't binge on soda and other junk, alcohol is bad for you in large amounts. Still don't see what that has to do with letting your kid taste it.

Believe me, I have thought about this two, three times or more. I hope to pass down that alcohol is okay to drink in moderation, you don't drink to get drunk, and you need to have a respect for yourself and others when you drink it. And it's not forbidden.

I don't think anybody's talking about a bottle of beer at the table for dinner every night for their four year old. I'm talking about a mouthful once in a great while when we drink, maybe a very small glass at the age of 10 or so. Again, once in awhile.

It worked really well for me so that's what I'm going with. It obviously didn't work for you so you're trying something else. More power to you. I hope it works out for both of us.

I appreciate and respect your stance, too...QUOTE]

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
To those who have mentioned allowing their children a half glass of wine - I get tipsy from a half glass. Imagine that much for a small developing body/brain??

Values, morals are not involved in my decision. It is simply a health issue for my family. I don't see why I would actively introduce something to my kids that is not healthy for their bodies just to (hypothetically) avoid it being extra desirable in the future.









:







:


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Yes, I would allow my Dd to try alcohol as she's growing up. It's legal and can be done in a responsible manner that doesn't make it such a forbidden fruit later on.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

European cultures regularly allow children to have a sip or small glass of wine with meals, and their incidence of alcoholism is dramatically smaller than countries which forbid children having any alcohol.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i never have beer in teh house so that wouldnt be an issue here. however, i have let my kids taste wine before (cant remember at what age..probably around 10 or so) and i have allowed my teen to drink a glass of wine with special dinners. i like to make it low-key. i think if i dont make a big deal out of it, that he wont feel the need to sneak around with it. and he has said that he doesnt like drinking, he has friends that drink and he doesnt join them. so somethign there is right (for once..there are many other problems with him, but drinking is not one of them)>


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

A little bit of alcohol is not a crisis in my book. Never has been.







And for the record I have teens and neither of them really drinks.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

My lo sometimes ask for a sip of my wine or a sip of Dh's beer. We allow it - I don't see the harm. I was allowed a glass of watered down wine with dinner from when I was about 8 or 9 and I think that's heallthy. I would rather he had a sip of beer or wine than a sip of pepsi!


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

We do "finger dips" for our 4-y/o since she was about 2. She can put her pinky in our drink and taste it. She loves wine, hates beer and lattes!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have let DS have sips of my wine before. I used to occasionally drink a fruit-wine blend, so he thought it was DELICIOUS. I wasn't comfortable with him having much so I explained that too much would make him feel weird.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with him having a drink of whatever I'm drinking, whether it's alcohol, pop, or coffee. He will be 3 in December.

I have a bit of a different perspective on alcohol than most people. I don't understand why drinking too much alcohol, making your body sick, getting out of control, and making a fool of oneself is considered a fun activity in this culture.

Quite honestly, I think the philosphy our culture has of escaping through (drinking, eating, television) leads to a lot more addictive behavior than allowing children to have those things.

I don't understand this mentality that alcohol is somehow bad or sinful. It's just another drink. Like anything, if you have too much it will make you sick.

I very VERY seldom drink at all, currently... but I am planning on trying to incorporate some red wine into my diet, because of the health benefits. I'm pretty sure my DS will find it disgusting, but I hope that as he gets older he will acquire more of a taste for it so that he can have those health benefits too.

If I were the sort of person who drank in order to get drunk, I would probably have a different perspective. I don't consider that a healthy activity. I have seen my mom drunk a few times (and "drunk" on narcotics once, when she took two of her sleeping pills instead of one, for some reason) and it makes me really sad that it made her happy to be out of control and silly acting.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

We don't let dd have sips. She's only 3. But as she gets older I will continue to model good behaviour as well as let her try it on special occasions. But I don't see that happening until she's 12 or so. That's when I was allowed to have a watered down glass of wine with dinner during holidays. To me, modeling good behaviour as well as introducing her to the good stuff may cut down on binge drinking later. At least it did for me. I didn't really drink that much in college until I was old enough to go out and buy good quality stuff on my own.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
I very VERY seldom drink at all, currently... but I am planning on trying to incorporate some red wine into my diet, because of the health benefits. I'm pretty sure my DS will find it disgusting, but I hope that as he gets older he will acquire more of a taste for it so that he can have those health benefits too.

That reminds me... can anyone suggest a good red wine? I know nothing about wine, so looking at a wine list doesn't really help. Everything I try tastes bitter


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CryPixie83* 
That reminds me... can anyone suggest a good red wine? I know nothing about wine, so looking at a wine list doesn't really help. Everything I try tastes bitter

It's Beaujolais season now. You can usually get them for cheap now. They're fruity and nice and it makes a nice fall ritual. Also goes well with turkey.

What are you looking to eat it with or is it a gift? Cotes du Rhones are good solid reds that make nice gifts and don't cost an arm and a leg.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I love wine and like to have a glass with dinner. We also have parties where alcoholic beverages are served. We're all old and sedate, and nobody is going to overdo it at this point!

My five-year-old has had two minute sips of wine on different occasions, to see what it was like. Predictably, she thought it was NASTY and didn't want it anymore. That's how I was raised, and I think I ended up with a very healthy relationship with alcohol.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

my 3.5 yo sticks his finger in my wine from time to time....


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
We don't let dd have sips. She's only 3. But as she gets older I will continue to model good behaviour as well as let her try it on special occasions. But I don't see that happening until she's 12 or so. That's when I was allowed to have a watered down glass of wine with dinner during holidays. To me, modeling good behaviour as well as introducing her to the good stuff may cut down on binge drinking later. At least it did for me. I didn't really drink that much in college until I was old enough to go out and buy good quality stuff on my own.

Modelling a responsible attitude about alcohol is what it's all about, for sure!

I, too, intend to educate dd about wine and even distilled spirits and beer... quarter glasses or half glasses of fine wine as she passes thru adolesence, for instance, to celebrate her 1st period and the advent of woman-hood, or very special family events, as she enters her teens.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CryPixie83* 
That reminds me... can anyone suggest a good red wine? I know nothing about wine, so looking at a wine list doesn't really help. Everything I try tastes bitter

Cabernet and Merlot, the "everyman's wines", unless of higher quality, can be really full of tanins and very dry or bitter. Try an Australian Shiraz, they're rich and fruity, and full-bodies, and not so bitter. Petite Syrah (a smaller variety of the Syrah grape) has a sweeter quality than most reds, too.

If you're interested in sampling white, a LOVELY "sweet wine" that compliments beef, poultry, and even seafood, AS WELL AS cheese and apples, is Gewurtzremeiner (sp?), which is in the Riesling family, and has a fresh-green-apple brightness to it; friends of mine who cannot palate reds, LOVE Gewurtzremeiner and Riesling.

I second the nod to Beaugelais, too!


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
It's Beaujolais season now. You can usually get them for cheap now. They're fruity and nice and it makes a nice fall ritual. Also goes well with turkey.

What are you looking to eat it with or is it a gift? Cotes du Rhones are good solid reds that make nice gifts and don't cost an arm and a leg.

Really just to enjoy a nice wine. The last time I tried to buy wine I ended up with a terrible pinot grisio (sp?) that tasted like bad beer


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## aeiouys (Sep 6, 2006)

When I was little I got to have a really tiny glass of wine with Holiday suppers (It was usually Baby Duck wine.. yuck. My family is so not classy







). I also remember pouring beer into mugs for my granpa and drinking the foam!
My 10 year old tried a sip once and thought I was drinking poison.

I would even give them a small glass of wine on a special occasion, just like I had when I was little


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Too bad you're in Springfield and not Chicago. I would tell you to go to Sam's Wine and Spirits, there's a guy there that looks a little like John Hurt, you tell him what you're eating or what you like, give him a price point, he thinks about it for a second and leads you to the perfect wine for what you need.

I also like Riojas a Spanish wine. I try to go for reds that are naturally cheap rather than reds that are cheaper versions of expensive wines that you really should fork over the dough for. Italians can be cheap, Spanish wines and South American ones. Australian ones can be cheap too, they tend to be really big! So probably not a good starter wine. I already mentioned Cotes du Rhone for French wines.

There are no merlot standards for instance so no two merlots actually taste the same. Not to say merlots are bad but they're not a wine that you can see on a wine list and know roughly how it's going to taste by virtue of being a merlot. I love cabernet sauvignon but there's a wide variety of quality and you do get what you pay for. Same with pinot noirs unfortunately.

White wines are tricky to me personally. I love Alsatian Gerwurtztraminers and Rieslings. Revolution 9 is also a nice Oregon white wine blend.

These are my preferences. I really think your best bet is find a wine shop or a wine bar that will do tastings so you can find what you like. 2nd best option find yourself a good wine shop and a nice clerk to recommend stuff. If she or he only leads you to $50 bottles of wine after you said you can't afford them, go the the next wine shop.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I don't think a taste once in awhile is bad. The more it is forbidden, in general the more it is wanted and the more curiosity will be there. We have already discussed with our oldest DS what alcohol is and that it is a drink for adults.

DC


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

I just wanted to ask one quick question for those families who let their dc have a taste of wine. Are you concerned with the sulfites in it???
I am totally for my dd trying it if she asks, as it stands now she has zero interest, even when jokingly asked if she wants some. But I just thought about the fact that I keep sulfites out of her diet and that wine is jammed full of them.
Maybe just go organic as with all other foods....hmmm

To contribute to the conversation though, I was allowed as a child to taste my dad's beer...I have a very healthy attitude towards alcohol now, but as a teenager not so much...because I was allowed and didn't have to hide it I drank more than I should have on many many occasions. I wonder about this for my dd... is just modelling responsible drinking enough? Thankfully I have many years before this comes up!!!

Great topic...interesting responses!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Crystal - my "starter" reds for people who aren't wine drinkers are Beaujolais Village and Cotes du Rhone - also, a lot of the Chiantis are very smooth (try a Chianti Classico.) If you didn't like Pinot Grigio, you may like a slightly sweeter white - like Lisalou suggested up-thread. I personally don't like my Rieslings too sweet, though - so two I like are the Framingham Riesling (New Zealand) and Pacific Rim Reisling (Bonny Doon.)

I get all excited this time of year because the Beaujolais Nouveau comes out soon! ( http://www.intowine.com/beaujolais2.html ) It's an easy, smooth red and is very affordable - but only around for a short time and meant to drink young - so be sure to get some!


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## graceshappymum (May 11, 2006)

My parents are from France and Belgium and as children my brother and I were always allowed to have a little taste of the wine that we had with dinner. My husband and I drink moderately and responsibly and we would let our daughter have a little taste if she wanted it.

It is funny to think that I love wine and have turned in a collector while my brother has never liked the taste and still can't stand any alcohol.


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## momofonesuperboy (Nov 15, 2006)

My son does see us have a beer or glass of wine and we've just explained they are grown up drinks. I even tell him that about soda because he's not allowed to have any. He's 4 1/2. He just reiterates to me that when he's a big boy he can have it and then says "how about when I'm 11" (for the soda) and I say 'yes, that's a good age'. I know he'll want it before then but it's an age he picked and imposed for himself. He's never taken it any farther than that (yet!). I'm sensitive to it b/c my brother started drinking in 8th grade and never quit. I've had a professional tell me that for some the first sip is all it takes...it's hard to know that for a young child but I figure better safe than sorry. I know it will come up when he's a bit older but for now our story stays the same and I think that consistency will bode well as he matures. Best of luck in figuring out what's right for your family.


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

I was allowed to have wine on special occasion dinners as were my brothers. My parents modeled "responsible" drinking behavior. All of us (my brothers and I) have abused alcohol at some point in our lives. Two of my brothers are alcoholics. While I think it is wise to model appropriate use of alcohol, it does not guarentee that your child will use it wisely--or won't turn out to be an alcoholic. The abuse of alcohol just kinda came with the territory where I grew up. The alcoholism is a whole other ball of yarn--you just never know if your child is going to be one.

Having said that, I think it would be ok to have a small glass of wine with holiday meals. I have fond memories of this growing up. It made me feel special (I don't exactly know why). I don't know at what age would be appropriate to introduce this "tradition". I do worry about alcoholism--there are quite a few people on both sides of our families who are alcoholics. I guess we will wait and see what feels right. I agree with the other posters that making it taboo isn't healthy either. So much to ponder.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I agree, too, with the idea that creating a taboo around alcohol consumption may lead to dangerous curiosity, later. I think MANY social morays and cultural paradigms do this... but I do wonder (philosophically) WHY introduce a substance that has been shown to be addictive and harmful, that has so many gray areas, and uncertainties as to how it will affect an individual as he/she developes, that has ZERO nutritional, medicinal, psychological benefits for a them, to a child?

There are those that refer to offering a watered down glass of wine to an adolesent, or a short glass, at holiday dinners, etc... I respect and understand that notion... "time and a place", special occassion, kid is "coming of age", rite of passage from childhood into young adult... I understand ALL of it, and even feel the same sentiments.

How young is too young? Does a 6 year old really HAVE to have that taste? What purpose does it serve?

I'm not trying to get on the mountain-top and preach, or anything... I'm not even thinking of alcohol consumption as a TABOO, but, it IS an intoxicant, an addictive substance with no health-benefits for little ones, and I'm truly wondering what motivates a parent to give little ones tastes...?

Flame on...


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Why not? Alcoholic drinks in very small quantities (i.e. licking a finger or just taking a taste) are not going to harm a child.

And actually, red wine has been shown to have MANY health benefits.

I think you're asking "why". You could ask that question about many things. WHY give any child anything with sugar in it? WHY let a child have potato chips, ever? Why let a child go out in the rain?

Because it is part of living.







I think a lot of us believe it's better to be moderate, and show that those thing shave no special magic, and let children understand for themselves, and completely, what those things are, than to make a big deal out of... well, something that is just not a big deal.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

I believe a taste, a mouthful for a four or five year old, isn't intoxicating or harmful. I don't even know how much a toddler would get if they dipped their finger in to taste. A few drops?

I don't see it as harmful.









It seems to be a point of contention here. You see alcohol as harmful in and of itself. I see it as having the potential to be harmful but not if used properly and carefully. Therefore you see alcohol as harmful no matter what the amount. I don't. The tiny amounts I've given my son, dd hasn't asked for any yet, are harmless. In my opinion.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

How would you feel if your child saw you having a drink and asked for a taste? Would you allow it? How much would you let him/her have? Do you explain that is is not for children?
Since I do not and have never drank this would not be a issue for me but in no way shape or form would I ever let my child have a drink of anything with alcohol in it.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
Why not? Alcoholic drinks in very small quantities (i.e. licking a finger or just taking a taste) are not going to harm a child.

And actually, red wine has been shown to have MANY health benefits.

I think you're asking "why". You could ask that question about many things. WHY give any child anything with sugar in it? WHY let a child have potato chips, ever? Why let a child go out in the rain?

Because it is part of living.







I think a lot of us believe it's better to be moderate, and show that those thing shave no special magic, and let children understand for themselves, and completely, what those things are, than to make a big deal out of... well, something that is just not a big deal.









:

Alcohol is not inherently bad, and it's certainly not unnatural. I would never pressure my kid to try alcohol, but I don't believe a taste will hurt. Alcohol, and wine in particular, play an important part in my culture and religion, so I guess this just seems "normal" to me.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
And actually, red wine has been shown to have MANY health benefits.

I think you're asking "why". You could ask that question about many things. WHY give any child anything with sugar in it? WHY let a child have potato chips, ever? Why let a child go out in the rain?

Because it is part of living.







I think a lot of us believe it's better to be moderate, and show that those thing shave no special magic, and let children understand for themselves, and completely, what those things are, than to make a big deal out of... well, something that is just not a big deal.

I have never disputed the health benefits studies have revealed red wine to have for ADULTS. But those benefits are present only with regular, minimal consumption... something I don't think (young) children indulge in, nor should they.
And I'm specifically asking Why give a child alcohol? Not why give potato chips, or why let them in the rain...
I've seen a lot of justifying, and reasons why it's NOT a big deal, but why do it?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo* 
I believe a taste, a mouthful for a four or five year old, isn't intoxicating or harmful. I don't even know how much a toddler would get if they dipped their finger in to taste. A few drops?

I don't see it as harmful.









It seems to be a point of contention here. You see alcohol as harmful in and of itself. I see it as having the potential to be harmful but not if used properly and carefully. Therefore you see alcohol as harmful no matter what the amount. I don't. The tiny amounts I've given my son, dd hasn't asked for any yet, are harmless. In my opinion.

I _don't_ see it harmful in and of itself, I _do_ factually STATE that it is an intoxicant. On par with controlled substances. With a long history of addiction, disease, accidental over-dose, poisoning, and death...

Alcohol has a firmly rooted place in our past and history, in global culture, from Shamanistic ritual, to the Drink of the Devil, thru Prohibition, to present day high school keggers.

I'm not asking if it's harmless for a pre-schooler to have a few drops off mom or dad's finger... I'm asking Why? What goal is met? Is it about including a child? Allowing them to feel more a part of things? What things?

I certainly don't have a trade mark on the idea that alcohol IS harmful... just strange to see such a flippant attitude about it, here.

This book is EXTREMELY educational, life-changing, and paradigm shattering... http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc...274872#sipbody


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## jstar (Jul 22, 2004)

i dont' think i've given my ds a taste of beer but i'm pretty sure my dad has







: he has also given him cola.

my ds is pretty fascinated by coffee. he frequently tells me his drink is 'fafee!' and drinks his bathwater (blech!) 'it's fafee!' i gave him a sip of my coffee the other morning and he made the FUNNIEST face. kind of a grimace but mostly he was stunned. stunned that something i so obviously enjoy could taste so GROSS. i said coffee is yukky huh? and he nodded.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jstar* 
i dont' think i've given my ds a taste of beer but i'm pretty sure my dad has







: he has also given him cola.

my ds is pretty fascinated by coffee. he frequently tells me his drink is 'fafee!' and drinks his bathwater (blech!) 'it's fafee!' i gave him a sip of my coffee the other morning and he made the FUNNIEST face. kind of a grimace but mostly he was stunned. stunned that something i so obviously enjoy could taste so GROSS. i said coffee is yukky huh? and he nodded.









The only way I could get dd to drink anything but breast milk was to tell her it was coffee... she has never tried coffee, but I drink it, and she wants to have a coffee clutch! NOW, her milk is called coffee-milk...

My mother gave dd sips of whiskey and wine, AFTER I told her where we stand and is not allowed to have alcohol around dd, now, as a result.


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

i grew up in a family of alcoholics, my parents were recovered/ing. it was soooooo taboo that i never learned about social consumption. it took me many years to learn to drink responsibly. i will make sure alice does not go through that by teaching her the difference between binge drinking/social drinking. if she wants a taste as a kid i see no problem with it.


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## Brazilianmommy (Aug 3, 2006)

DH have given DD some small drops of Wine and she had tasted Bodka from his finger to, but becuase he's European, nothing wrong with it and besides she doesn't seem to lik it much


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I have never disputed the health benefits studies have revealed red wine to have for ADULTS. But those benefits are present only with regular, minimal consumption... something I don't think (young) children indulge in, nor should they.
And I'm specifically asking Why give a child alcohol? Not why give potato chips, or why let them in the rain...
I've seen a lot of justifying, and reasons why it's NOT a big deal, but why do it?

I _don't_ see it harmful in and of itself, I _do_ factually STATE that it is an intoxicant. On par with controlled substances. With a long history of addiction, disease, accidental over-dose, poisoning, and death...

Alcohol has a firmly rooted place in our past and history, in global culture, from Shamanistic ritual, to the Drink of the Devil, thru Prohibition, to present day high school keggers.

I'm not asking if it's harmless for a pre-schooler to have a few drops off mom or dad's finger... I'm asking Why? What goal is met? Is it about including a child? Allowing them to feel more a part of things? What things?

I certainly don't have a trade mark on the idea that alcohol IS harmful... just strange to see such a flippant attitude about it, here.

This book is EXTREMELY educational, life-changing, and paradigm shattering... http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc...274872#sipbody


You ask why? In my case, I will allow dd to sip wine or beer if she asks because she is curious. When she is curious about something, I try to allow her to experience it unless I know it will be harmful to herself or others. I do not think a sip of beer or wine is any more harmful (and maybe less so) than potato chips or cola. So since I feel that way, I see no reason to deny her a taste.

There is no guarentee that your kid will or will not have a alcohol problem no matter how you approach it. It was forbidden in my house and we never discussed it. I did drink WAY too much over a several-year period. My dh grew up in a house in which it was allowed in small amounts. He also drank WAY too much over a several-year period. Everyone is different. And despite have many raging alcoholics in both families, neither of us had any trouble pulling out of our alcohol-fuzzy HS and college years and turn into responsible, moderate drinkers. What does that prove? Nothing. There is no right answer to the original question in this thread..


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Yooper, so, for you, it is part of indulging your child's need to explore?


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

If you are going to dismiss us as flippant, I'm done here.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
You ask why? In my case, I will allow dd to sip wine or beer if she asks because she is curious. When she is curious about something, I try to allow her to experience it unless I know it will be harmful to herself or others. I do not think a sip of beer or wine is any more harmful (and maybe less so) than potato chips or cola. So since I feel that way, I see no reason to deny her a taste.

Same here. When my son was 3, he really wanted to try some beer- my husband brews his own and his hobby is a part of all of our lives, so it was particularly special to him. So we've let him have a shot-glass full of homebrew when he asks.

I have not given him other drinks because, frankly, I don't want to share.









I actually question the idea of letting kids have alcohol only for celebrations/ special occasions- I wonder if that could possibly place more importance on alcohol than perhaps it should have? I suppose that makes sense if the ritual consumption of alcohol is important in your family's tradition....


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo* 
If you are going to dismiss us as flippant, I'm done here.









I sincerely struggled for the right way to word that... no offense intended...







:

But I am surprised that so many parents have this light take on giving children alcohol...

Now, I have to admit that the primary attitude is surprising, BUT gives ME pause for thought.

I had the same attitude, and when research and new (to me) info caused me to question my own reasoning, I didn't have any truly succinct answer for why it would be a good idea to give my child alcohol... I just assumed I would as had been done in my family. I was chagrined to learn that, as some studies NOW show, this attitude is thought to contribute to teen alcoholism. So, I'm feeling out my contemporaries on the topic of WHY it's a good idea, since I never came up with a good answer.

I didn't mean to rub u the wrong way, I truly respect your insight and perspective, and think that this thread has given me more to think about. Maybe I won't be so hard on my mother when she gives tastes to dd.... giving her the benefit of the doubt... maybe she's just helping to indulge dd's exploration...

I think it's ALWAYS a good thing to talk about these issues, and to try to attain mutual understanding with other parents. I don't look for you to agree with me, just hope that you'd want to try to understand why _I_ say what _I_ say, as I try to understand why you say what you say...

Thank you for your intelligent conversation, all.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
Yooper, so, for you, it is part of indulging your child's need to explore?

Yep


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:

I sincerely struggled for the right way to word that... no offense intended...
Thank you. I was frustrated to hear that after I'd already explained I'd thought seriously about it.

It's all risk management. I have decided that the risk of my kids going haywire with the alcohol in their teens and young adulthood by not being taught how to safely drink and having alcohol be forbidden is far greater than the risk that very small amounts of alcohol in childhood are going to lead them to alcoholism. You've decided the risk of allowing alcohol at a young age are too great.

The point is, I have thought a lot about it, I'm well aware about the dangers of alcohol and alcoholism - having seen plenty of both. This is the conclusion I've drawn. Yes, it's different then yours and I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand how I could really think about it and come to a different conclusion than you did. I don't know how to explain it any other way.

Parents have to weigh the risks. A child could grow up an alcoholic no matter what the parents do. You have to look at the risks and decide what's best for your family.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I've seen a lot of justifying, and reasons why it's NOT a big deal, but why do it?

Because I don't forbid things that I have no reason to forbid. No, I would never chase my 2 year old down and ask, "Do you want some margarita? Would you like a sip of wine? Want to try some of my beer?" but if my child asks for a taste, I have no reason to say no. I don't think that taking a sip is harmful. In fact, I think it is more harmful for me to say, "Sure, you can have a hot dog and potato chips and cake at Bobby's birthday party today." so if I am willing to give in to that every once in awhile, surely I can allow my ds the opportunity to take a taste of wine if he wishes. Saying no makes an illusion that something is secret or fobidden or special about the drink and to put it simply, I don't believe that is true and I don't want to leave that impression.

It's important to me to think about every parenting decision and before I say, "NO" ask if there is really a reason to say no, or if I am just forbidding something because it is a conditioned response with no real merit. Why say no when there is no reason to? If I thought alcohol was that evil and horrible and unnatural and wrong, then gosh help me--why would I be drinking it in front of my child in the first place?

My motto, "All things in moderation." Now, if 2 year old Andrew decides he wants an entire beer of his own, we will have to talk about limits, but a swallow? Not a problem. I am happy to indulge his curiosity.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I really appreciate the points of view shared here... I have a fluid approach to most of life and child-rearing, and am of the belief that there are very FEW absolutes. Thus, I'm not absolutley opposed to this whole concept... this is how I was raised, the kids getting to taste, etc, and it went a couple different ways, for us, just like many of the other posters.

I could see letting dd have a taste of something, as a way to nurture her explorations. After this thread, I know I'd be able to do it from that place of nurture, and not feel compelled to justify it to myself by saying that it was in her best interest as a way to curb the potential of alcoholism... which is how I _would've_ looked at it before I read more on the topic. And now, after some greatly appreciated exchanging of ideas with some interesting and intelligent moms, I have an even more dynamic view.


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## apelilae (Oct 8, 2006)

My parents always allowed me to try their drinks from a young age. It always tasted so nasty, so I've never been a drinker. Even in college. I still think most drinks taste bad.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm with Stawberry Fields on the "why". I don't forbid my children to do things that aren't going to, more likely than not, end up in the ER. And a sip of beer or wine or margarita isn't going to result in an ER trip. I let them climb the roof of their play structure. I let them run freely in the rain. I let them ski. I let them taste anything else that I am cooking or eating. Why should alcohol be any different? Because in too great a quantity it will get them drunk? True, but that is managed with moderation (which is a pretty small sip for a small child), not forbidding it entirely. Because it MAY (and the research here is far from conclusive) increase the risk of alcoholism as teens? Well, maybe, but seems like forbid fruit is going to do more to encourage unhealthy drinking IMHO. Because others might frown? Like that's stopped most of us in other decisions?

I celebrate and encourage my children to try new things. I rejoice when they try some new food. It would be inconsistant and aribitray to draw a line at this one substance.

Note that this is consistant with my understanding of the risks and my approach to parenting. I am in no way saying that everyone should approach it the same way, just as I wouldn't say that any other parenting decision should only have one answer. This is MY answer to the "why" question, not an advocacy to everyone else.


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## wildecent (May 24, 2005)

my oldest has had cream sauces cooked with wine and stew cooked with beer because the alcohol is reduced by heat i allow that. i would not allow tastes of alcoholic drinks for children still who are attaining growth, if alcohol is hard on my liver how much harder would it be on a minature one? i was never given alcohol when i was young and i had no trouble waiting until 21 to embark on enjoyment of beer wine and spirits. i never have binge drunk,never made my self ill,and hope to impart that to my kids.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Those of you who let your kids take "sip" of your wine, beer or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another sip and another sip and another sip and another sip?

If they LIKE the wine and the beer or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 sip do you?


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I'd simply do what I do with other things that I don't want dd to overdo on like chocolate, food in general, playing out in the rain, etc., etc. limit it. I do think there is a difference between letting her have a taste and letting her have as much as she wants.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Those of you who let your kids take "sip" of your wine, beer or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another sip and another sip and another sip and another sip?

If they LIKE the wine and the beer or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 sip do you?

The same that I have done with chips, soda, and candy. Dd and I have sat down, discussed the concerns I have about the items, discuss the concerns she might have, and develop a policy we are both happy with. Dd has never sipped any alcohol yet. She has not shown any interest. When that day comes, and IF she does like it (which most kids do not), we will take age into consideration. If it happens tomorrow at age three, I will explain my conerns and tell her that these drinks are bad for little kids and make some sort of deal we are both happy with. Maybe she gets a finger taste any time she wants. Maybe I will make her a sparkling juice when dh or I are having a drink. Whatever. If she is older, I might be OK with watered down wine or something like that. It really depends on the age, dd's interest, and how we both (dd and I) feel about it at the time. This is how we handled soda. Dd had a sipped and of course loved it. I expressed my concerns to her and we decided that the policy would be that she be allowed to have a VERY small glass whenever we are around it (which is very very rare). Dd has been fine with that and knows it is open for re-negotiation when and if she decides that policy no longers is OK with her.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
How would you feel if your child saw you having a drink and asked for a taste? Would you allow it? How much would you let him/her have? Do you explain that is is not for children?

Our ds asks us for a sip of beer (dh) or wine (me) every time we have some (which is probably 1 or 2 times per month). We always let him have a sip. A sip will not hurt him. We do say that beer and wine are for adults but that it is ok for children to have a "taste."

When I was little my parents had sherry glasses that I seriously thought were kids' wine glasses. Every time my parents had wine, my sister and I each got a small glass (maybe 3 sips). My dad let me have a sip of his beer whenever I asked, too.

Namaste!


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Those of you who let your kids take "sip" of your wine, beer or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another sip and another sip and another sip and another sip?

If they LIKE the wine and the beer or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 sip do you?

Same thing I would do if I gave him an oreo and he wanted another, and another, and another. Set limits!


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
Same thing I would do if I gave him an oreo and he wanted another, and another, and another. Set limits!









:

I liked beer as a kid. I was not allowed more than a very small glass, probably the equivalent of 2-3 mouthfuls up until I was in my teens.

Today? Still like beer. Problems with alcohol? Nope.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

I would... Only if he was older. Not now, of course...

I see it as a simple way to show a growing mind that it's not all that it's cracked up to be.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

I don't know I think the "only a sip" deal makes things more desirable and taboo, not less.

We would rather not introduce something than power struggle over it. Like TV, for example, or sugar. We would rather choose to either let our child self regulate or leave it out of the house. We don't drink but if we did we would keep it out of the house.


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## nattybo (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:

Those of you who let your kids take "sip" of your wine, beer or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another sip and another sip and another sip and another sip?
When the time comes I will do/say what my father said to me when I was very young (3-6) and curious about what he was drinking. He told me that I was allowed the first sip out of his beer bottle and maybe a second sip. And these sips where to "get the poison out"







(You know, like the food tasters of kings, queens, pharohs, etc.. At the time the words didn't mean anything to me, but now that I am older and looking back it shows me another glimpse of how much my father loved history and incorporated it into our lives). After the first and second sip, there clearly was no poison, and hence I was not allowed to have anymore even if I wanted it.









Today, I do not have any problems with alcohol. Heck, my friends think that I am a tea totaler







So much so that they are totally shocked out of their gourds when they see me with an alcoholic drink.

I grew up in a home where alcohol was a "grown up" drink, however we were allowed to taste. When we were around 10-12 we were allowed to have 1/2 a glass at holiday dinners. Many of my peers were not. I high school, I saw many kids getting drunk b/c they were home alone, wanted to be cool, submitted to peer pressure ect...

When I look back at these early memories associated with alcohol I see them as early lessons in self-restraint and discipline.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Preschool age or older, yes, but just a sip.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
We would rather not introduce something than power struggle over it.

Are there really parents out there who are having power struggles with their kids over having one more sip of wine or beer? Gosh, all you have to do is say, "No, I said one sip, you had one sip, now you are done."

Namaste!


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Are there really parents out there who are having power struggles with their kids over having one more sip of wine or beer? Gosh, all you have to do is say, "No, I said one sip, you had one sip, now you are done."

Namaste!

But like I said in my post, I believe that the "one sip only" rule makes it MORE desirable, not less. Isn't that the whole theory espoused on this thread? That allowing a sip will take the novelty (lack of better word at the moment) out of it. Forbidden fruit theory.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
But like I said in my post, I believe that the "one sip only" rule makes it MORE desirable, not less. Isn't that the whole theory espoused on this thread? That allowing a sip will take the novelty (lack of better word at the moment) out of it. Forbidden fruit theory.

Yes, I think so.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

One sip making it more desireable? Hmm..MAYBE But most kids hate the taste anyway. And like oreos, ice cream, and hot dogs..you just explain why too much is not a good thing, but a little is all right.


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## psyche (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
But like I said in my post, I believe that the "one sip only" rule makes it MORE desirable, not less.

I respectfully believe otherwise.

(Round and round and round it goes. Where it will stop, nobody knows.)


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Those of you who let your kids have a piece of candy or a cookie or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another piece and another piece and another piece and another piece?

If they LIKE the candy and the cookies or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 piece do you?










Sit down with your kids and talk to them about the idea that candy/cookies/wine/beer taste good and are fun to eat but that too much candy/cookies/wine/beer is not good for their bodies and that it's healthiest to have just a small amount. Set some limits for your kids!

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Isn't that the whole theory espoused on this thread? That allowing a sip will take the novelty (lack of better word at the moment) out of it. Forbidden fruit theory.

That's not what I am saying. All I am saying is that when my kids ask for a sip or two, they get them. I don't know whether it will make it forbidden fruit or not. But that's not why I let them have sips. I let them have sips because I don't think it will hurt them to have a sip or two. That's all.

As far as the forbidden fruit theory, this thread has shown that people react differently to essentially the same situation. Some people had sips and never drank excessively. Some people had sips and went on to drink excessively. I had sips and I drank heavily in high school. I rarely drink now. One size solutions don't fit all.

Namaste!


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

I guess this thread is heading off in a different direction but for us self regulation has worked very well. Our children are in touch with how their bodies feel and that if they eat too much sweets (for ex) they don't feel well. If the stay up too late they are tired the next morning. Of course I realize that noone on this thread would allow their young child to self regulate with alcohol (maybe i'm wrong?) but my point is that I would rather not bring something into the house that would be dangerous for them to self regulate. Does that make sense? tired...


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Those of you who let your kids have a piece of candy or a cookie or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another piece and another piece and another piece and another piece?

If they LIKE the candy and the cookies or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 piece do you?










Sit down with your kids and talk to them about the idea that candy/cookies/wine/beer taste good and are fun to eat but that too much candy/cookies/wine/beer is not good for their bodies and that it's healthiest to have just a small amount. Set some limits for your kids!

Namaste!


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
That's not what I am saying. All I am saying is that when my kids ask for a sip or two, they get them. I don't know whether it will make it forbidden fruit or not. But that's not why I let them have sips. I let them have sips because I don't think it will hurt them to have a sip or two. That's all.

As far as the forbidden fruit theory, this thread has shown that people react differently to essentially the same situation. Some people had sips and never drank excessively. Some people had sips and went on to drink excessively. I had sips and I drank heavily in high school. I rarely drink now. One size solutions don't fit all.

Namaste!

Ok I see where you are coming from.

One size does not fit all - very true.

I feel for now, uncomfortable with my children sipping wine but since we don't drink in the house, it isn't an issue for us. I might reevaluate later and/or if they see us drink and ask to taste.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
I guess this thread is heading off in a different direction but for us self regulation has worked very well. Our children are in touch with how their bodies feel and that if they eat too much sweets (for ex) they don't feel well. If the stay up too late they are tired the next morning. Of course I realize that noone on this thread would allow their young child to self regulate with alcohol (maybe i'm wrong?) but my point is that I would rather not bring something into the house that would be dangerous for them to self regulate. Does that make sense? tired...

jazzharmony, I completely agree with you. You actually pointed out some things I didn't think about and put it into perspective for me.


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Those of you who let your kids have a piece of candy or a cookie or whatever...

okay, what are you gonna do when they want to take another piece and another piece and another piece and another piece?

If they LIKE the candy and the cookies or whatever, you honestly don't think their curiosity is satisfied by 1 piece do you?










Sit down with your kids and talk to them about the idea that candy/cookies/wine/beer taste good and are fun to eat but that too much candy/cookies/wine/beer is not good for their bodies and that it's healthiest to have just a small amount. Set some limits for your kids!

Namaste!


Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do....set limits...allow them a little, a lot....when they reach a certain age if they have it in them they will get their hands on it!!!
You just never know.

I think when it comes to drinking and candy and stuff alot of parents forget that YOU are the parent and have to decide what is best for the child. If it's there and they like it they are going to want it. And when they're old enough they will sneak it and when they're even older they will use their allowance or whatever to sneak to the store and buy it themselves.

And if it's in the fridge they will sneak it if they are curious enough and you won't allow thm to try it, they will sneak it with thier friends.

Alcohol, candy, pop, carbs of any kind are highly addictive. Fact.
I cannot allow my kids to self-regulate!!! Kids aren't sitting around thinking "that's bad for my body and my immune system so I'm just not going to have it" they are thinking the exact same thing we are thinking when we head to the fridge for a midnight binge attack!!! NOTHING. We are not thinking when cravings hit us. And I don't think kids are thinking either when it comes to drugs, alcohol, sugar and the sorts.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
I think when it comes to drinking and candy and stuff alot of parents forget that YOU are the parent and have to decide what is best for the child. If it's there and they like it they are going to want it. And when they're old enough they will sneak it and when they're even older they will use their allowance or whatever to sneak to the store and buy it themselves.

Sometimes I know, from life experience, what is best for my children but many times I do not, they do. I respect their ability to know what feels good and what does not. I trust their bodies to tell them when they are hungry, full, sick, tired. More importantly, I do not interfere with their natural ability to feel these things by setting arbritrary limits. My kids got huge bags of candy for Halloween. Most of it is still sitting in the kitchen cabinet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 

Kids aren't sitting around thinking "that's bad for my body and my immune system so I'm just not going to have it" they are thinking the exact same thing we are thinking when we head to the fridge for a midnight binge attack!!! NOTHING. We are not thinking when cravings hit us. And I don't think kids are thinking either when it comes to drugs, alcohol, sugar and the sorts.

I disagree. Like I said earlier, my kids do know when to stop. Their body tells them. THey also do remember the feeling of having too much candy or staying up too late.
Cravings are complex. Many times they are a sign of vitamin, mineral, protein deficiencies. Binge eating is also very connected to emotions. If my children are healthy physically and emotionally they are less likely to crave junk.


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Do you have older children?


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
Do you have older children?

My children are 27months and almost 6yrs. I also grew up in a family with a belief in self regulation.


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## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

We are ok with it. We almost never drink and if we do it is wine or beer. The only liquor in our house is for tincturing. DS has had sips of wine and beer and even coffee(which we also almost never drink).
I grew up with parents who are both in AA (well my mom was and is not active anymore, but she has 20 years sobreity, my dad is very active and has 24 years). They both got sober before I was born...they met in AA. Alcohol was fairly taboo in our house and I had to learn what was reasonable, responsible drinking on my own as a teenager. I also had friends with parents who were alcoholics and they had to learn what was normal. They still struggle with it.
I feel that it is a choice a parent should make and that for us, alcohol is not taboo. I enjoy cooking with it more than drinking it really, but see no harm in wine or beer with dinner, perhaps a coktail at a party. I really believe in balance.
My family had an exchange student from Germany come a couple months ago and he turned 16 while here. When you turn 16 in Germany (and most of Europe I believe) you are able to buy wine and beer and of course, with meals and such, he's been having drinks for as long as he could remember. He said that in America there are so many problems with alcohol and other drugs and it is because of the way we make it so taboo. He said it was rare fo rpeople in Germany to just get drunk to get drunk like we do.
I agreed with him enitrely. I refuse to make it a taboo and I refuse to view it as unnatural.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Ok I see where you are coming from.

One size does not fit all - very true.

I feel for now, uncomfortable with my children sipping wine but *since we* *don't drink in the house, it isn't an issue for us.* I might reevaluate later and/or if they see us drink and ask to taste.

Bolding mine.

There you go. This isn't an issue for you. For those of us who do enjoy wine or beer and have it at home, the choices are "no you can't have any" and "okay, you can try a little bit, but no more because too much is bad for anybody." What, exactly, are we supposed to do?


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

thanks for the suggestions!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
But like I said in my post, I believe that the "one sip only" rule makes it MORE desirable, not less. Isn't that the whole theory espoused on this thread? That allowing a sip will take the novelty (lack of better word at the moment) out of it. Forbidden fruit theory.

This is not my theory. I really do not think there is much correlation between how alcohol is handled in the house and later alcohol problems (with the exception of extreme issues). I would let my dd have a sip because she wanted to try it and I see no immediate harm in allowing it. Dh and I drink moderately and seldom does a day go by when a beer or glass of wine is not consumed in our house. So I expect some day dd will be interested. If we did not drink, she would not see it and probably never ask. That would be fine too.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
How would you feel if your child saw you having a drink and asked for a taste? Would you allow it? How much would you let him/her have? Do you explain that is is not for children?


Willow has asked for tastes. And I will give her a taste. I'm not letting her knock back a bottle of Boonesfarm. I'm not giving her a main-line of Cuervo.

I have told her that alcohol is for adults and that she may have more when she is older. She accepts that.

And I don't think that giving her tastes now and then will set her up for alcoholism.
It takes a lot more to make an alcoholic than by just tasting (or experimenting) does.

But to each their own.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
Alcohol, candy, pop, carbs of any kind are highly addictive. Fact.
I cannot allow my kids to self-regulate!!!

Who is talking about allowing kids to self-regulate alcohol?

Yes, alcohol can be highly addictive, but there are millions of Americans who are able to use alcohol without becoming addicted. I come from a family with alcoholism on both sides. I have seen addiction. I am not an alcoholic.

I drink the occasional soda. Like one a month or less. I am not addicted to soda.

I enjoy a piece of candy once a week or so. I don't spend my life craving candy. I am not addicted.

You are not giving people much credit with the idea that simply because you are exposed to something or consume it occasionally you are going to become addicted.

I don't hit the fridge for a midnight binge. For me, knowing that something is unhealthy is generally enough to deter me from overeating/overdrinking it. I know that not everyone is that way, and as I said before, one size solutions don't work for everyone, but my mom worked with me a lot as a child to teach me proper nutrition and those lessons have stuck.

Namaste!


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *willowsmom* 
Willow has asked for tastes. And I will give her a taste. I'm not letting her knock back a bottle of Boonesfarm.

Well, you just take the fun out of everything, don't you?


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
Alcohol, candy, pop, carbs of any kind are highly addictive. Fact.
I cannot allow my kids to self-regulate!!! Kids aren't sitting around thinking "that's bad for my body and my immune system so I'm just not going to have it" they are thinking the exact same thing we are thinking when we head to the fridge for a midnight binge attack!!! NOTHING. We are not thinking when cravings hit us. And I don't think kids are thinking either when it comes to drugs, alcohol, sugar and the sorts.

IMO, kids internalize the general values of their parents. Especially if those values are well-modeled. Our kids don't just watch us set limits for them, they see me and dh set limits for ourselves. They watch us help each other curb anything excessive. For example, I battled against too much computer use, and lost. So, I asked dh to put a password on that I didn't know. That way, he can open it for me when he's home, but when it's just me and the kids, they have my full attention. The kids were part of the whole interaction.

Our six year old often self-regulates. She'll say, "I'm worn out. No more playdates." or "I'm getting a headache. I need to drink water." or "I need space." She's practicing self awareness and discipline all the time. When she's a teenager, I expect her good judgement to fall off for awhile, but she'll have this foundation of moderation, and she'll come back to that.

I want my kids to experience how they feel when they begin to get tipsy and have had enough to drink, while still under my roof. We will probably start to let them set their own limits when they are 15 or 16, while obviously guiding them and stopping them if necessary. To me, the biggest risk comes from sending them away from my protection with no experience with alchohol and no measure of how much is healthy and safe to drink.

That's where I'm coming from. There are doubtless many successfull ways to deal with this issue.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl3* 

I want my kids to experience how they feel when they begin to get tipsy and have had enough to drink, while still under my roof. We will probably start to let them set their own limits when they are 15 or 16, while obviously guiding them and stopping them if necessary. To me, the biggest risk comes from sending them away from my protection with no experience with alchohol and no measure of how much is healthy and safe to drink.

I've never thought of it this way. I really respect that. I remember being in college and having to learn my limit by trial and error (several times). It was not fun at all.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
Well, you just take the fun out of everything, don't you?


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## teacup (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I would. That's how we grew up. As a result (I think...) I have no issues with alcohol. (and this is with a significant family history of alcoholism) I can have a drink or two once in awhile.

-Angela


My experience is different from yours. Both sides of my family have histories of alcoholism, and my parents never, ever said "Don't drink." They said to be careful. I recall having a couple sips when I was young, as I'm sure my brother, who has been an alcoholic since he was 12 years old, does as well. I am not an alcoholic. It's a roll of the dice, baby.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

No, but it's a non-issue for us because we've never had a drink ourselves. It's not in our home, or the homes of any of our family.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Well, you just take the fun out of everything, don't you?










Truly told!
You ought to see the anvil drop when she asks to ride the white pony.


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## teacup (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *willowsmom* 
Truly told!
You ought to see the anvil drop when she asks to ride the white pony.









You want I should pee my pants laughing?


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *willowsmom* 
Truly told!
You ought to see the anvil drop when she asks to ride the white pony.









I guess we are just never coming to your house for playdates then. It sounds way too boring.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I wonder how many of us will remember this thread, in times to come... when our children are teenagers, doing what they'll do whether we approve or don't. Kwim? How many of us will think, "I'm really glad we approached the matter of alcohol the way we did", or "I wonder how it would have been had we handled it differently" or some such...?


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I wonder how many of us will remember this thread, in times to come... when our children are teenagers, doing what they'll do whether we approve or don't. Kwim? How many of us will think, "I'm really glad we approached the matter of alcohol the way we did", or "I wonder how it would have been had we handled it differently" or some such...?

Honestly, no matter what happens I think that I will still be glad that we are approaching alcohol the way that we are. I think that we are doing the best that we can by making it a non-issue, but it is up to ds to use the foundation that we have laid to do what is right. And there are no guarantees. Dh and I came from homes with different approaches to alcohol--one permissive, one not. We both partied like rock stars through our teen years up until ds was born. Yet my brother rarely drinks more than one or two, and out of dh's siblings, one doesn't drink at all, two drink maybe one drink socially on occasion, and one is out there partying just like we did.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I grew up in a house where we were always allowed to drink. Usually it was about 2 oz. of wine at dinner maybe once a week - that's all we had around. But if we wanted a glass when we were older, we just told our mom we were getting it and I'd sit on the couch and sip a glass and read a book. I've never been drunk in my life and basically never have more than 1 drink on any day. I think having the whole 'taboo' side of the issue removed for me made it so much less tempting than for other kids. I guess we were rather European in our approach from what I've heard about how they handle it. I had always heard it was legal as long as parents provided the drink but now as an adult I'm hearing that's not the case - but you CAN have alcohol as a part of a religious ceremony, which is how it often was when I was a kid - we'd do Eucharist at dinner on Fridays.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Sure, a little bit won't hurt them. I was allowed to taste it as a child and allowed to drink normally with my parents as a teenager, and I've never gotten drunk or suffered any ill effects. We don't limit sugar or things like that either.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm curious to know how many people who say "no alcohol" under any circumstances are part of churches that use wine for communion? And if so, do you limit your child's participation? As Episcopalians, our family takes communion each week with a sip of wine. My children began participating at about age 2. I don't have any problem with this, but then as I said earlier I don't have a problem with a sip at the dinner table either. Wondering if anyone else would draw a distinction?


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

We don't drink so it's a non issue for us. For communion, our church uses Welch's Grape Juice in lieu of wine.


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## Steady101 (Jun 24, 2004)

No I wouldn't, at least not now anyways.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Yes, when they're older and just a taste till they're teenagers and then they can have a tiny bit more just with dinner so they learn to be responsible drinkers.

love and peace.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Whew...just read through this whole thread....

I've seen a lot of talk about "teaching moderation." When it comes to alcohol, if you have a child who is biologically/genetically set up to be an alcoholic, there is no such thing as "teaching moderation." If there were alcoholism wouldn't exist.
I am a recovering alcoholic, and in the recovery program I am part of, we have the opportunity to hear eachothers "stories." Almost every story I have heard includes memories of parents giving sips, or finishing off grown up drinks after the party is over (not all stories but many).
While it's true, that most children do not like the taste of alcohol, those first sips do start to set something off- even if it's many, many years before an active addiction happens.
Alcoholism is a disease. It is not something you can "teach" your children not to be. You can't "model" non-alcoholic behavior. It just doesn't work that way.
Now obviously, I don't have alcohol in the house for my children to take sips of. My kids are 6, 8, and 10yrs old. I don't tell them "never drink." What I do tell them is as children of a long line of addicts/alcoholics on both sides, that they are in extra danger when it comes to alcohol and drugs. That IS genetic and heredetary, so they need to take special care, because there is no way of really knowing if they have it or not until it is too late.
I'm all for kids learning their own lessons in life, and in theory I'm all for experimentation- I just know for my kids they have an increased chance of it taking a major toll on thier life, not just having a few bad college memories.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Thank you SO much for your post! You are awesome, and brave!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Sure, I let him have a _taste._ I was always allowed a taste. I was even allowed a glass in high school if I wanted it. And I rarely got wasted like every other kid my age wanted to do at parties.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I remember having tastes of beer and wine, even a cocktail or 2 when I was a kid, like at 6 years old... It tasted horrible. Kids almost ALWAYS think it's gross.

That's interesting. I've never met a kid who didn't love the taste of beer...not one. I loved the taste of beer when I was a kid, and would go out of my way to try to get it from my dad, his co-workers or anybody else who had one. You couldn't pay me to drink the vile swill these days, though.


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

not at their ages (3 and 6,)-no. When they're older-perhaps, if they ask-and I will not make it be a big deal. honestly-I come from a family with drinking problems and it was considered entertaining and cute to get me to sip from a drink. That permissiveness in my home escalated as I got older-and I was allowed to consume large amounts as a teenager, and I did end up with a problem. So I will have to tread carefully with that. Alcohol is just not a big deal in our house anyway-but it was way too important in my house growing up. Oh, and I agree-wine is somehow less "objectionable" than other beverages, and beer is right behind that.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123* 
I've seen a lot of talk about "teaching moderation." When it comes to alcohol, if you have a child who is biologically/genetically set up to be an alcoholic, there is no such thing as "teaching moderation." If there were alcoholism wouldn't exist.

That's supposing that every child predisposed to alcoholism was taught moderation, which clearly is not the case.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123* 
I am a recovering alcoholic, and in the recovery program I am part of, we have the opportunity to hear eachothers "stories." Almost every story I have heard includes memories of parents giving sips, or finishing off grown up drinks after the party is over (not all stories but many).
While it's true, that most children do not like the taste of alcohol, those first sips do start to set something off- even if it's many, many years before an active addiction happens.
Alcoholism is a disease. It is not something you can "teach" your children not to be. You can't "model" non-alcoholic behavior. It just doesn't work that way.

I don't know all the science behind alcoholism, so I really can't get into a debate about it. But I do think there is such a thing as modeling appropriate behavior and teaching moderation. Since my curiosity was piqued, I found this article published by the American Psychiatric Association that had some interesting points. It suggested that alcoholism is not _only_ genetically influenced, but also environmentally. From the article:

http://psychservices.psychiatryonlin.../53/6/707#SEC3

"The enculturation of children and adolescents to sanctioned substance use tends to occur in religious or familial settings-for example, use of alcohol during Passover by Jewish families or use of peyote during religious services by members of the Native American Church. Such cultural imperatives are associated with lower rates of abuse of the permitted substance."

". . . alcoholics tend to have cultural backgrounds in which adult drunkenness is tolerated and in which acceptable cultural contexts for drinking without abuse-such as the consumption of wine during religious ceremonies or with meals-are not provided."

I don't think "sips" as a child turn people into alcoholics. Of course if you know your children may be genetically predisposed to alcolholism, it would seem irresponsible to go there.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

Nope. It's not for kids. We don't drink in front of him, though, partly for this reason. (Not that *I* can, with the continued nursing anyway!)


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread.

No, we will not allow our children to taste alcoholic beverages.

We don't drink, and we don't allow alcohol in our home. There is absolutely no reason for it. It doesn't taste good. There are other ways to unwind and relax, that don't involve killing brain cells and possibly contributing to unhealthy habits and decisions.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
That's supposing that every child predisposed to alcoholism was taught moderation, which clearly is not the case.

Alcoholism is a disease. You cannot "teach" or "model" someone not to be one any more than you can "teach" someone not to get cancer. Yes, you could encourage them not to smoke- but there are plenty of organic eating, non smoking, excersising people who get cancer (and I also don't see anyone here giving their kids sample drags of cigarettes either).

Quote:

The enculturation of children and adolescents to sanctioned substance use tends to occur in religious or familial settings-for example, use of alcohol during Passover by Jewish families or use of peyote during religious services by members of the Native American Church. Such cultural imperatives are associated with lower rates of abuse of the permitted substance."
Native Americans have a HUGE alcoholic population, as do Catholics- both of which have alcohol/drug use as part of thier religious services.

Quote:

I don't think "sips" as a child turn people into alcoholics.
I don't either. I simply said that many, many stories I hear have beginnings with the "sips" they got from parents as little kids. Again, alcoholism is a disease, you don't "turn" someone into one- nor do you teach someone not to be by how you model your own drinking habit.
I just don't understand why anyone would want to go there. I could maybe, maybe see if they were teens or young adults the argument or idea that allowing them a taste at home may take some of the mystery out of it or whatever, but what is the point in giving a toddler or young child sips of alcohol?


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
I haven't read the whole thread.

No, we will not allow our children to taste alcoholic beverages.

We don't drink, and we don't allow alcohol in our home. There is absolutely no reason for it. It doesn't taste good. There are other ways to unwind and relax, that don't involve killing brain cells and possibly contributing to unhealthy habits and decisions.

I respect all families choices and think that you are oh so correct in saying that there are many other ways to unwind and relax, that are soooo much healthier.

I do have to ask though, when your children are in their teens and they are told that there is no alcohol allowed in your house and that they are not allowed to have it...don't you think that the natural rebellion of a teenager will unleash itself and they will look for a place that they CAN drink, and potentially put themselves in danger...or better off find another family that does allow it and just go there. I've been a teenager...and I vividly remember these times. ANYTHING my parents said definately NO to, I did and kept doing, even if I got caught and punished.







:

This isn't directed to anyone in particular, just a generalized question for those who say no under no circumstances at any point.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *northcountrymamma* 
I do have to ask though, when your children are in their teens and they are told that there is no alcohol allowed in your house and that they are not allowed to have it...don't you think that the natural rebellion of a teenager will unleash itself and they will look for a place that they CAN drink, and potentially put themselves in danger...or better off find another family that does allow it and just go there. I've been a teenager...and I vividly remember these times. ANYTHING my parents said definately NO to, I did and kept doing, even if I got caught and punished.







:

Our hope is that our teenage daughter will understand that it is illegal for her to consume alcoholic beverages before the age of twenty one and will respect the law of the nation where we choose to make our home, even if she chooses not to respect our experiences regarding the evils of alcohol. (And yes, I use the word "evils" very deliberately. There is nothing positive to say about the consumption of alcohol. Period.)

If we find out that she's been consuming alcohol at someone else's house, we will contact the local police regarding the adults in that residence allowing underage drinking. There is no grey area in my mind. Yes, this does include close friends and family - ESPECIALLY close friends and family, because they above all should know how DH and I feel about drugs and alcohol.

For teenagers to rebell, there needs to be something to rebell against. My theory (untested because my daughter is 15 months) is that if we simply don't have alcohol in our home, it won't become an issue. We're not out picketing liquor stores, we're simply not buying anything alcoholic. As she learns about alcohol in biology, health, cooking, etc., we will share with her the personal stories that led us to our stance against alcohol and drugs.

When she turns 21, she can drink whatever she wants. Just not in our home.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
Our hope is that our teenage daughter will understand that it is illegal for her to consume alcoholic beverages before the age of twenty one and will respect the law of the nation where we choose to make our home, even if she chooses not to respect our experiences regarding the evils of alcohol. (And yes, I use the word "evils" very deliberately. There is nothing positive to say about the consumption of alcohol. Period.)

If we find out that she's been consuming alcohol at someone else's house, we will contact the local police regarding the adults in that residence allowing underage drinking. There is no grey area in my mind. Yes, this does include close friends and family - ESPECIALLY close friends and family, because they above all should know how DH and I feel about drugs and alcohol.

For teenagers to rebell, there needs to be something to rebell against. My theory (untested because my daughter is 15 months) is that if we simply don't have alcohol in our home, it won't become an issue. We're not out picketing liquor stores, we're simply not buying anything alcoholic. As she learns about alcohol in biology, health, cooking, etc., we will share with her the personal stories that led us to our stance against alcohol and drugs.

When she turns 21, she can drink whatever she wants. Just not in our home.


Honestly, good luck with that. My parents tried that- not having it in the home and calling police when they found out about having alcohol @ other places.

But it was only when they found out. There were many many occassions that went unfound. And many many occassions that I was [email protected]$$ drunk at the parties. And when I went to college.... I was just turned 18. Legal to be an adult. Not legal to drink. Did that stop me? NO. The first night at college- where I did not know a single student in my dorm- I got so wasted with them. And in the drunkeness you become more open and you talk. Many people found out about my parents strict policies on Alcohol. That only led to many students telling me to try "this drink and this one and this one..." And who knows... I was lucky that this didn't happen to me, but some guy could have come along and put the date rape drug in my drink. I knew not much about alcohol dispite my high school dates of being drunk at parties.

I wish my parents would have been more open and educated me about the TYPES of alcohol as well, because some of the garder stuff really f-ed me up because I didn't know how strong it could be or yadda yadda.

Anyhow, if you're plan works, congratulations. You'll have succeded where my parents (and many others I know) have failed.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

As for the OP question.

Yes we will treat it as something normal, explain how it is designed to be an adult drink but on certain occassions she will be allowed a small amount (Xmas dinner, Thanksgiving dinner, etc)

If we are drinking some around the house and she asks to try it, I will more than gladly give her a small sip.

I will treat it as normal. I will not drink it constantly (like a beer in hand all day long) as I feel 1.) that's a huge sign of alcoholism and 2.) it advocates alcoholism

My theory behind that is this:
Alcoholism runs prominent on my fathers side of the family. HOWEVER most of the children grew up around parents who drank nothing but alcohol it seemed. My dad is an alcoholic, but then again he'd come home to his mother passed out in the kitchen and he'd tend to her, and when he was done he'd grab himself a beer to chill out.

Whereas my 2nd cousin was exposed to the alcohol but wasn't around it constantly and she is not an alcoholic, in fact she only drinks on special occassions.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

For the record, it does taste good.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
We don't drink, and we don't allow alcohol in our home. There is absolutely no reason for it. It doesn't taste good.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
For the record, it does taste good.

For the record, no, it doesn't.


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow...I have to say that I really wish you well in that endeavor...I have more to say on that but I will refrain for fear of offending.

I am on the train that alcohol does taste good and that we all have different opinions and tastebuds!

And can I ask you JustJamie, what is it that you see as evil about alcohol? I did agree with you original post that there are much better ways to unwind and relax...personally I would much rather go for a wander in the woods, get in my canoe or do yoga...but there are times when celebrating with friends it feels good to bang our glasses together, get a bit wild and enjoy a bit of mind alteration. I am not saying that I would need to get trashed to do that...but one or two beers or glasses of wine really isn't going to hurt me or my brain cells.

As for my dd I feel that if I model that very behaviour and show her that there is an amount that can hurt your body by pointing it out in others that we see I think her attitude towards drinking will be as mine is. And perhaps she will kill a few brain cells in high school attempting the inevitable, but I also feel that if she doesn't have to hide it from me she will be able to also learn that it feels BETTER to just have one or two than to get drunk through positive experiences in my home rather than only negative experiences out on the town with no responsible party there to keep an eye out.

Calling the cops...that's rough. While at your friends place... even harsher. I have to wonder if they don't have better things to be doing than crashing a party at a home where adults are letting a teenager drink beer. And what about this magic age of 21...what is it that makes that age ok for one to consume alcohol? What about here in Canada where you can drink at 18 in many provinces? Or in Europe where you can start drinking legally at 16? Would your values change if you chose to make your home in those countries??

I am rambling...this has all been said...I just had to respond and I am so confused as to why one would consider alcohol evil....heroin, yes definately...other chemical mind altering drugs, sure...but alcohol? Wine (fermented grapes)?? Beer (hops, barley, wheat)??? I am perplexed!


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## GuavaLava (Nov 15, 2004)

We don't drink therefore dd won't have reason to ask for a sip. I don't plan to start drinking or to have alcohol in the house just to avoid "what ifs".

We don't talk about alcohol as good or bad. She's 4 and as I said above, it's not part of her world. I don't think scare tactics work. When my father dies from what will inevitably be complications from smoking and alcoholism and she asks why grandpa died, we'll tell her in as neutral of a way as possible. If and when she asks some of the hard questions about why our family is as broken as it is she'll hopefully learn something about the serious responsibility involved when it comes to alcohol.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think people have tried the forbidden/shielding approach in the past. It doesn't have the highest success rate.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I think people have tried the forbidden/shielding approach in the past. It doesn't have the highest success rate.

Based on what research? Where is your source for this information?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Life experience. Common sense. Watching the naive, shielded ones completely go off the partying/alcohol deep end at college once they were away from all those restrictions.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
For the record, no, it doesn't.

Some cheap alcohol tastes aweful. Others - usually more expensive are delicious. There is so much variance in taste, unless you've been to dozens of wine tastings and tried 25 different beers and chocolate liquers and margueritas and irish coffees and... yes I think certain cheap beers are horrid enough to make me want to puke - but that does not touch the edge of flavor encompassed by all alcoholic drinks.

But that's coming from the girl who used to sit and sip a half a glass of wine and curl up with a good book on the couch when I was 16 (and I've never been really drunk before so I haven't in my life personally experienced the dark side of alcohol, but have seen others do it - enough to keep me under control - I never have more than one drink).

I think the quality of alcohol you consume is often correlated in whether or not you plan do drink to enjoy the flavor or if you plan to drink to get drunk (although there are a few cheap drinks that go well with some dinner recipes and hot afternoon chores, etc.).

I grew up on better tasting alcohol - you'd never get me to down an entire bud light.







:


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 
I think the quality of alcohol you consume is often correlated in whether or not you plan do drink to enjoy the flavor or if you plan to drink to get drunk

Yes. I also think that how a person uses alcohol can depend on whether they view it as a drug to get wasted with or a beverage to enjoy the taste of.

I let my kids sip now (even my 3 and 4 year old). When they get older and want to try more than just a sip, I will let them drink at home. If they are able to drink good tasting, high quality stuff at home, I think their desire for cheap, nasty tasting crap that they would encounter among their friends might be lessened.

I think my parents had the right idea when I was young by letting me have sips and teaching me that alcohol is a beverage, not something forbidden and secret. Where they dropped the ball was when I got to be a teenager and the message changed from "Alcohol is a good tasting beverage" to "Alcohol is a dangerous drug that must be avoided." I know why they changed. They were afraid I would drink and drive or something. I understand why they did what they did. But I think they should have let me continue to have some alcohol responsibly at home, because then I wouldn't really have wanted to drink with my friends. I would have been able to say to them, "I don't want your nasty crap, I can get the good stuff at home."









But I guess it depends on how comfortable a parent is with their child drinking at all. I don't mind if my children (as young adults and older) drink some, as long as they do it responsibly. Half a glass of wine while reading on the couch is responsible. A couple beers while hiding out in a friend's garage is not.

Namaste!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

By the way - I was right all along - at least for the state of Virginia:

Look up your state here: http://alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/stateprofiles/

Mine:

Quote:

Furnishing of Alcohol to Minors

Furnishing is prohibited WITH THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTION(S):
• private residence AND EITHER
• - parent/guardian
• - legal-age spouse

Notes: Prior to July 1, 2005, Virginia's law allowing any person to keep or possess alcoholic beverages "in his residence for his personal use or that of his family" was not specific to minors and therefore did not meet the criteria for an exception in this policy topic. See Va. Code Ann. § 4.1-200(7). With the passage of legislation effective July 1, 2005, however, this exception was incorporated in a new underage furnishing provision and now meets the criteria for coding the Parent / Guardian and Spouse exceptions to underage furnishing, when the alcohol is provided by a person "in his residence." See Va. Code Ann. § 4.1-306(A1).
That means that as a parent I can give my child a drink in my own home. It's legal.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123* 
I also don't see anyone here giving their kids sample drags of cigarettes either.

Cigarettes and most illegal drugs are NOT on my list of things that I hope my child will use 'in moderation'. Alcohol is. I hope I get to sit with my daughter when she's an adult and drink a nice heart-healthy







glass of red wine together. In fact my dh and a friend and I went out to some vineyards yesterday and he and our friend did several wine tastings. We were talking about how great it would be (after we've made our millions in teaching and sahming







) to own a vineyard. (I know it's not a realistic dream and probably a ton of work, etc.) but I don't think exposure to alcohol should be completely limited any more than I think exposure to all sugar, etc. should be completely limited. I am here to acculturate my child to what I think is "normal" and "healthy" and that includes a world with wine and dark chocolate on occaision as well as all our dark green leafy veggies and whole grain foods, exercise, healthy emotions, etc., etc.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Never. A child is still growing and developing and studies have proven that even one serving of alcohol can cause permanant damage.

They have their *entire adulthood* to learn moderation. That being said, I would support imprisoning/fining adults, even parents, who provide children with alcohol.


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

I'm answering without reading the other responses, and I will probably not read the other responses after either









I don't drink alcohol anymore because I'm an alcoholic, so obviously I don't give sips to my kiddos. Until fairly recently, I did drink soda and never ever would give a sip to my DC because it is toxic. In fact, one of the reasons I quit soda was because it seemed stupid of me to drink something while telling my kids no one should drink it. I don't feel that alcohol is in the same league of toxicity as soda, so I'm not sure how I would have felt if I weren't an alky...

BUT, when I was a child, I was given sips of mom's beer... and the family friend's hi-ball... and Uncle's wine... all in the same night. I ended up drunk at 13 months of age.







It's a favorite family story


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

once they are older, I dont mind them having a taste.......and I will probably get flamed for this, but once they turn 16 they can drink at home under my supervision. (in new zealand the legal age is 18, but my parents both let me drink earlier than that at home, and i have never had a problem with alcohol or overdrinking.....i have a beer or a glass or two of wine and thats it.)


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## nannyrachel (Nov 18, 2006)

My parents always allowed me sips of their drinks when I was a child - but I never really liked the taste. Just the smell of my dad's whiskey would make me retch. From about my mid-teens onwards I would have a glass of wine with dinner on Sundays, from 16 onwards I'd have a beer or glass of wine with a meal if we were eating out as a family, and from 18 I'd often go to the pub with my Dad for a drink. Neither myself nor my siblings have a problem with alcohol, so I think I'd raise my own children the way my parents raised me.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I don’t think preventing access to ‘tasting’ alcohol before a certain age prevents alcoholism. For some it would seem that early tasting led to alcohol abuse whereas others it seems to have prevented it.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *northcountrymamma* 
Wow...I have to say that I really wish you well in that endeavor...

Why does luck have anything to do with it? The same could be said for parents who are going at it from the pov that crossing their fingers against alcoholism while serving up sips to children who haven't even hit puberty yet is a good approach. I wish u well, providing children with access to alcohol, and explaining to them why it's to be treated with moderation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I think people have tried the forbidden/shielding approach in the past. It doesn't have the highest success rate.

Your personal experience is hardly grounds to make a blanket statement that shielding childen from alcohol is not a good approach.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Never. A child is still growing and developing and studies have proven that even one serving of alcohol can cause permanant damage.

They have their *entire adulthood* to learn moderation. That being said, I would support imprisoning/fining adults, even parents, who provide children with alcohol.

I heartily agree... and there *are* facts to support this. However reluctant some folks seem to admit this....

I am mystified as to why, with the overwhelming occurance of alcoholism, and alcohol related deaths, when presented with the facts about alcohol consumption, and it's links to other substance abuse, any parent would say that they're STILL going to provide access and hope for the best...Seriously, what is coming across is something like: "After much consideration, we have decided alcohol is not dangerous, and since we decided it, it must be true... so we're sure our child will be fine, even tho WE may have had issues at one point, or our parents did or grandparents... we're pretty sure our child will be ALL GOOD, and that's that. We'll just steady on, and set a good example..."

My concern is that by turning a blind-eye to the facts, or naively espousing this perception that shileding or forbidding as the only other option is just not gonna work, parents set themselves up for huge risks...

Has anyone here, that does think sipping is ok with kids who have yet to reach puberty, considered that this is not merely a health and wellness question, but that this is a question of moral compass? That if we as parents provide a sincere model, a moral code and a life-style to which we as a family adhere, that maybe just maybe that teenage rebelliousness that keeps getting metioned here, will not be such an unavoidable cataclysm?? Or, has anyone here considered that their own desire to continue their enjoyment of alcohol and the decisions they make around that desire affect that moral compass?

I STILL have not read one reasonable justification to give a child alcohol. I STILL read lots of Why it's OKAY, and why it's NOT a big deal... but can anyone offer a succinct and clear explaination of Why it's a good idea? Cuz, so far, the supporting facts against it out-weigh any of the reasons it shouldn't be considered a big deal.

I still stand by the statement I made that a lot of what has been said here has given me pause for thought... That I may re-assess my position as dd matures... etc.

People keep projecting "When *I* was akid..." or "*MY* family did it and it was fine"... Does anyone think it's possible that the facts out-weigh the personal experience?

flame away...

ETA: I can't stress it enough... educate yourselves about alcohol and alcoholism. If you've posted anything like "I don't know the science" or "Well, in MY family..." you should get the facts... One place u can get them is: Under the Influence : A guide to the Myths and Realities of Alcohol http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc.../dp/0553274872

The worst thing that happens is that you learn something that may change your thinking or your life.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I am mystified as to why, with the overwhelming occurance of alcoholism, and alcohol related deaths, when presented with the facts about alcohol consumption, and it's links to other substance abuse, any parent would say that they're STILL going to provide access and hope for the best...Seriously, what is coming across is something like: "After much consideration, we have decided alcohol is not dangerous, and since we decided it, it must be true... so we're sure our child will be fine, even tho WE may have had issues at one point, or our parents did or grandparents... we're pretty sure our child will be ALL GOOD, and that's that. We'll just steady on, and set a good example..."

There are entire cultures that allow children to drink alcohol and have for millenia. I do not prevent my child from eating really high fat food or the occaisional pure junk food just because 30% of adults in our country are considered obese (not in my gene pool anyways) but I don't think parents who have this risk should prevent their kids from the occaisional taste of junk food even though their child MAY have a risk of being obese and dying from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc. when older or becoming an economic drain on society (insurance, etc.). I don't think a child should be denied a little candy in childhood because overindulgence over a lifetime may kill her. I DO think all parents are obligated to teach their kids healthy eating habits. Just like I think parents *can* teach healthy drinking habits. Mine did.

I also don't understand why some people lump all alcohol consumption into the same category of "dangerous" and damaging. Surely we all know it's recommended to drink a little red wine for your heart health, right? A LITTLE. You just can't lump it all into the same thing.

Your child may be a potential sugar addict - will you completely limit their exposure because some people ruin their lives and health on sugar?

As with ALL potentially damaging things out there, I think directing kids toward a moderate and reasonable consumption and sense of self control and wisdom outweigh completely keeping kids away from and unaware of something. But that's my opinion and life experience and cross-cultural experience.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

i will let my kids do it, because even jesus drunk wine as a young boy


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

My dad made wine growing up and used to let us have sips of it- I don't necessarily know if it "prevented" us from drinking a lot in college as I went through a bit of a "crazy" phase in college, but I don't think there is any harm. Obviously I wouldn't do this with a very young child, but maybe once my daughter was ten and able to understand things a bit better. Kids are curious and I don't think that keeping alcohol forbiddedn does any good. JMO.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

_Originally Posted by Hazelnut
I think people have tried the forbidden/shielding approach in the past. It doesn't have the highest success rate.

Your personal experience is hardly grounds to make a blanket statement that shielding childen from alcohol is not a good approach._

Excuse me, I thought people were posting experiences and opinions here, period. People here aren't just talking about "shielding." They're talking about teaching that it's evil, pretending it doesn't exist, and completely forbidding it in their home while the rest of the world gives the message that it's OK. I'd like to see research that indicates that this is ever a good approach to teaching a child to avoid something or treat it with moderation.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Does anyone have any stats about relative alcoholism rates in different countries? Because I was under the impression that it *is* an issue in most of Europe, as well. The one thing they do better than us is that they eliminate the driving part of the drinking and driving equation, so fewer accidental deaths related to drinking.

I grew up in a culture where "everybody" drank, and giving a kid sips at parties was considered normal. My family is full of functioning alcoholics. People think nothing of getting behind the wheel after having a "few" drinks. We were also the last state to raise the drinking age to 21, under threat of losing our federal highway funds. People were up in arms about how unfair it was. Guess what happened? Drinking-related deaths for the under-21 crowd sharply declined. (The effect trickled down to teens even, because 16 and 17 year olds were no longer seen as being "close enough to legal.") The number of drinking-related auto accidents for drivers in that age group also fell.

I do know the "health benefits" of even red wine are overstated, especially for women. Moderate consumption (about 1 glass a day a few times a week for an average size woman -- and a glass is a lot less than most Americans think, like with most serving sizes) is considered slightly protective for the heart, but is linked to an increased rate of breast cancer as well. The bulk of the benefits of drinking red wine can be obtained from drinking grape juice, with none of the risks.

So I think DD will just have to stick with her welch's while she's under my roof.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 
As with ALL potentially damaging things out there, I think directing kids toward a moderate and reasonable consumption and sense of self control and wisdom outweigh completely keeping kids away from and unaware of something. But that's my opinion and life experience and cross-cultural experience.

So...what other "potentially damaging" things are necessary to make sure we raise wise, self controled children. Gun use, smoking- driving the car? Maybe a couple hits off a joint? What benefit in CHILDHOOD is knowledge and use? Why should they even have to think about that stuff? Teens, yes- I get it- but small children? They should be thinking about playing and learning and kid stuff.
There is a time and a place to teach responsibility. It seems like an oxymoron to me to be calling giving children alcohol "responsible."


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

It's not like anyone is advocating it, or at least I haven't seen it. When my son has asked, I've discouraged it. But I have let him taste it on occasion (not gulp, not drink, taste) and I don't think that's harmful. My parents also let me taste it, and they drank responsibly and lightly, so I don't think it's always done in the home of alcoholics.

eta: that point wrt other dangerous things was already addressed well in an earlier post.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Herausgeber* 

I grew up in a culture where "everybody" drank, and giving a kid sips at parties was considered normal. My family is full of functioning alcoholics. People think nothing of getting behind the wheel after having a "few" drinks. We were also the last state to raise the drinking age to 21, under threat of losing our federal highway funds. People were up in arms about how unfair it was. Guess what happened? Drinking-related deaths for the under-21 crowd sharply declined. (The effect trickled down to teens even, because 16 and 17 year olds were no longer seen as being "close enough to legal.") The number of drinking-related auto accidents for drivers in that age group also fell.

I grew up in NZ, and i was 16ish when they changed the law from 21 to 18. We actually saw a sharp decline in binge drinking, drunk driving accidents etc in the 14-20 group. there was far less fake ids and sneaking into bars happening. just some personal experience from a different side ofthe coin and country.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I'm not saying I think the legal drinking age should be lowered. Children should not be drinking unsupervised or even at parties thrown by parents to provide 'controlled' drinking environments. I think - as it is stated in some states laws - it's ok for a parent to give a teen or older child a sip at the family table. I'm not talking about quantities of alcohol that could cause liver damage. I'm not talking about allowing kids unlimited access (although I was given that and have *never* abused alcohol in my life - one drink limit has been the same for me when I was 5 to now age 27







. I've never wavered on that. I don't have the propensity to become an alcoholic).


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

We live in Switzerland, my husband is Swiss. I am from a French family. Our children get fingertips of wine. Wine is always served with meals and I am sure when my children are a bit older they will have a small watered down glass and that's fine with both of us.

Not fine with you or you family? I respect that. Don't berate me about the "evils" of alcohol and I won't berate you for being rigid and puritanical. I trust that you make the correct decisions for your family.

I worry more about children who subsist on a diet of premade, processed, ready meals than I do about my children's occaisional brush with alcohol in my home.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
studies have proven that even one serving of alcohol can cause permanant damage.

And your sources are...?


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

There are several published studies invovling the effects of alcohol in varying amounts and the damage that even one serving can cause to an under-developed nervous system. One serving during exactly the wrong moment of fetal development will cause fetal alcohol syndrom.

Alcohol contains neural toxins that affect the body on a cellular level; meaning it changes the cells. Over a period of time, even the most minute amounts, ingested regularly, will cause cellular change. The direct effect is that the person will begin to crave alcohol. This may be a covert craving, but too often developes into social alcoholism.

Here are some numbers from http://www.alcoholfreechildren.org/en/stats/child.cfm

Which was founded by http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Each day, 7,000 kids in the United States under the age of 16 take their first drink. 1

Of the people who began drinking before age 14, 47% became dependent at some point, compared with 9% of those who began drinking at age 21 or older. 2

64% of 8th-graders and 84% of 10th-graders believe that alcohol is readily available to them for consumption.3

Almost 20% of 8th-graders, and 42% of 10th-graders have been drunk at least once.3

Ninth-grade girls now report consuming almost as much alcohol as ninth-grade boys: 36.2% of girls and 36.3% of boys reported drinking in the past month, and 17.3% of girls and 20.7% of boys reported binge drinking.4

33.9% of ninth-grade students reported having consumed alcohol before they were age 13. In contrast, only 18.6% of ninth-graders reported having smoked cigarettes, and 11.2% reported having used marijuana before they were age 13.4

Rates of drinking differ among racial and ethnic minority groups. Among students in grades 9 to 12, 29.9% of non-Hispanic white students, 11.1% of African American students, and 25.3% of Hispanic students reported binge drinking.4

A study of 5th-through 11th-grade students found that those who are exposed to and enjoy alcohol advertisements have more favorable beliefs about drinking and say they are more likely to drink in the future and consume more alcohol.6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References

1 According to a September 2004 analysis by J. Gfroerer, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, calculated using the 2003 National Survey on Drug Use and Health.p

2 Hingson RW, Hereen T, Winter MR. 2006. Age at drinking onset and alcohol dependence: Age at onset, duration, and severity. Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine 160(7):739-746.

3 Johnston LD, O'Malley PM, Bachman JG, and Schulenberg JE. 2006. Monitoring the Future national results on adolescent drug use: Overview of key findings, 2005. Bethesda, MD: National Institute on Drug Abuse.

4 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 2006. Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance United States, 2005. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report: CDC Surveillance Summaries 55(SS-5):1-108.

5 Chen MJ, Grube JW. 2001. TV beer and soft drink advertising: What young people like and what effects? Paper presented at the annual meeting of the Research Society on Alcoholism, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

I'm telling you, it's a new era... a new millenia... a new world where we can learn from the mistakes our parents and grandparents made and make better choices with the information that is now available to us... I am so sick of the justifications that 1) it's what OUR family did (and many families had generations of severe physical abuse, because back then, they thought it was ok!) 2) other cultures do it... (other cultures CULTIVATE a respect and appreciation for food and wine; there is a TOTALLY different perception, culturally, of alcohol, esp. wine and beer, in countries like Italy, France, Germany, etc, in the home, publically, and in the Media there...)

Please, someone give me some numbers... some hard and fast evidence that says it is a good idea to give children who have not even started puberty alcohol. I'm open to the idea, that other families do this as a practice, seriously, with good reason... but why? You think it's cute to give the little ones a taste, let them play grown up? You want them to feel included in celebrations, etc? You want them to develope a taste for the good stuff? I'm neither rigid, nor puritanical. Actually I'm as far left of those descriptions as I can be. But other than loose projections of what others have done as a standard to be used ("Our family did it" or "Other countries do it") to justify the practice, I still see no evidence that says Children benefit from having alcohol before puberty, medically, psychologically, or nutritionally.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)




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## Quagmire (Sep 27, 2005)

Sure would. Less of a mystery, less of an issue.


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## teacup (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech* 
...Don't berate me about the "evils" of alcohol and I won't berate you for being rigid and puritanical....

This is a poor comparison. Saying _alcohol_ is evil is quite different from saying (or implying) that _someone_ is rigid and puritanical.

***

I'm seeing lots of "there's nothing you can do about it"s and "that's just really naive"s in this thread, where keeping kids from alcohol is concerned. Not letting them drink doesn't mean you don't talk to them about it: what it is, how it affects people, what connotations it has in different cultures. Not letting your child drink doesn't mean you're dooming her/him to naivete or inevitable binge drinking.

One thing I know for certain: You're a lucky lot, those who don't have to deal with alcoholism. Its reaches go far and wide and it can reverberate through generations. Alcohol's (genetic) grip is one of my greatest fears for my 21-month-old daughter.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Prennamama the study you listed is addressing childhood drunkenness primarily, from all the statistics you listed. Parentally supervised at-the-family table giving a 15 year old 3 oz. of wine with their dinner is more dangerous than 2 large pieces of chocolate cake with cool whip to the developing body? Where does one find stats on that?

I'm not hearing a lot from people who seem to really grasp how I was raised, how I consume alcohol today, and what I plan to do with my child - who disagree with me.

I was allowed sips of alcohol in childhood mostly just during religious ceremonies and later into my teen years I was allowed to have 1/2 a glass of wine with or after dinner every few weeks or so with the family. It was FAMILY controlled. There never was ANY binge drinking. I have never been drunk in my life. A bunch of stats about teen drinking do not apply to what I'm talking about. Kids from homes that permitted unlimited alcohol and kids from homes that abstained binge drank when I was a teen. I did not. I was allowed to drink with my family at home (a few ounces at a time every few weeks) and there was never any mystery or draw to it. My parents never modeled drunkenness or any alcohol abuse and I did get to watch people we knew sink into alcoholism so I knew what it was, but I watched others sink into a lot of unhealthy things that we were taught to moderate ourselves on. And my parents gave me good reasons to make good choices - things to believe in, causes to be involved in, and a love for myself that trumped any peer pressure.

I don't get the whole 'cellular programming' thing. I *know* not to drink it during pregnancy for the obvious FAS issues. But I also avoid a lot of other things in pregnancy that I will allow my child to consume later on in life. And there are many things that I will teach them are ok *in moderation*. They are not legally allowed to drink until age 21 other than what I provide anyways and I will be that obnoxious mom who knows where her 17 year old is and will have all the tough conversations with them the way my parents did. I will regulate what they consume. There will be no *buzzing*. They won't have access to it beyond me and if they do (every kid gets it offered from friends at some point), they will be well informed and intensely aware of the dangers and what it's all about. And they won't be curious just like I wasn't curious.

You can write off my life experience with a bunch of studies that don't describe what my childhood/teen years of experience being allowed to drink at the family table, but it doesn't work for me. I never binged, smoked anything, or had enough to alter my judgment. I had a few ounces at a time with my parents - modeling the exact way that I have patterned my drinking as an adult - as a connoisseur - drink slowly and enjoy the flavor because one drink is it!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
You think it's cute to give the little ones a taste, let them play grown up?

Oh, yes. That's why I do it. Absolutely no other reason than that. I sat down to give the matter serious consideration, threw up my hands and said, "It's cute! Can't find a better reason than that!"










You many not agree with some of our decisions, and you may not accept our reasons as meaningful, but could you please stop accusing us of being that stupid?


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
You may not agree with some of our decisions, and you may not accept our reasons as meaningful, but could you please stop accusing us of being that stupid?

ITA!


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## Learnintolaugh (Nov 9, 2006)

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole sip/fingertip of alcohol for little ones. It isn't something I would do but I don't feel strongly enough about it to say it is something no one should do.

I do take issue with people saying "yeah, good luck with that" to parents whose choice is to refrain from giving it to their children. I grew up in a culture that predominantly forbids drinking. Our generation has loosened up to the extent that many of us will serve wine for special occasions, or have the occasional drink. But for all that forbidding and 'ooh, it's evil' talk going on in our early years I do not know one single person who went overboard when they decided it was ok to drink. At 33 years old my husband has NEVER had even a sip of alcohol. It just doesn't interest him enough to risk the alcoholism that he saw in some of his uncles and cousins when he was younger. He was perfectly content going to bars with his friends, partaking of soda (often free to the designated driver) and then driving them home. As for myself, I have from the beginning limited myself to the occasional wine cooler or glass of wine. Going overboard just wasn't a desire. So yes, my parents, my husband's parents and the parents of many of my friends DID have 'good luck' with their approach. It doesn't mean I will approach it exactly the same way, but it also doesn't deserve to be written off in a tone that seems to imply that it is doomed to failure.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

But obviously from your post, his uncle nor cousins did.......


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
There are several published studies invovling the effects of alcohol in varying amounts and the damage that even one serving can cause to an under-developed nervous system. One serving during exactly the wrong moment of fetal development will cause fetal alcohol syndrom.

Alcohol contains neural toxins that affect the body on a cellular level; meaning it changes the cells. Over a period of time, even the most minute amounts, ingested regularly, will cause cellular change. The direct effect is that the person will begin to crave alcohol. This may be a covert craving, but too often developes into social alcoholism.

Here are some numbers from http://www.alcoholfreechildren.org/en/stats/child.cfm

Which was founded by http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/
......
Please, someone give me some numbers... some hard and fast evidence that says it is a good idea to give children who have not even started puberty alcohol. I'm open to the idea, that other families do this as a practice, seriously, with good reason... but why? You think it's cute to give the little ones a taste, let them play grown up? You want them to feel included in celebrations, etc? You want them to develope a taste for the good stuff? I'm neither rigid, nor puritanical. Actually I'm as far left of those descriptions as I can be. But other than loose projections of what others have done as a standard to be used ("Our family did it" or "Other countries do it") to justify the practice, I still see no evidence that says Children benefit from having alcohol before puberty, medically, psychologically, or nutritionally.[/COLOR]

thankyou so much for posting this...this is what i'm interested in seeing and too lazy to look up myself!!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

All of the stats that point out how many young kids drink has nothing to do with whether or not they were given a taste of wine at their parents. Of the ones "drinking before 14" that have a higher risk of later dependency, they are "drinking" drinking. They are not just referring to junior being allowed to taste mom's wine at Christmas. The kids I knew getting drunk at 13 did often have problems. That doesn't mean the ones who might have been allowed a sip in their parents house or who weren't taught the 100% abstinence approach are at more risk.

The current state of underage drinking is indeed horrible, but that does not prove your opinion about how one arrives there and why we are at that state of affairs. I think we are there for many, many reasons, and I personally believe that one of them is the simultaneous romanticization/taboo of alcohol that exists in the U.S. Obviously how we solve the problems is not a simple solution and something that many here won't agree on. But don't think we're not aware that alcohol is some kind of problem in society and with young people, just because we don't agree in teaching that it's evil.


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## Learnintolaugh (Nov 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
But obviously from your post, his uncle nor cousins did.......


True. I guess what I am (very poorly) trying to say is that this seems to be one of those issues where you just simply can't extrapolate one or even a few situations that you know of to cover an entire population. I think we've seen almost every possible scenario posted from personal experiences. Kids were forbidden to drink, some turn out fine, some go overboard. Kids are given tastes, some turn out fine, some take it as license to drink. No matter what a parent does, so far I just haven't seen a really clear predictor of future behavior based on present practices when it comes to this issue. So I don't think either side really has the ability to say "your method is wrong".

Eh, really what I think it boils down to is attitude. I think you can 100% abstain a right way and a wrong way, just as I think you can handle allowing them to have a bit in the right way or the wrong way.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

I don't teach, nor do I believe, that alcohol is evil. I do, however, believe that it isn't healthy. Particularly for little bodies. I also believe cow's milk isn't healthy








I am not "teaching abstinence". I simply do not have alcohol in my home as we do not drink. I don't see anything positive in giving a sip to a toddler, but that's just me.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Oh, yes. That's why I do it. Absolutely no other reason than that. I sat down to give the matter serious consideration, threw up my hands and said, "It's cute! Can't find a better reason than that!"










You many not agree with some of our decisions, and you may not accept our reasons as meaningful, but could you please stop accusing us of being that stupid?

I have never accused ANYONE, here, nor would I ever accuse anyone here, of being stupid. You, romans_mum, and others are frustrated by my vigilant stand that there is nothing positive to be gained by giving a child alcohol. I can do little to affect your perception, except to re-assert with consistant respect, that I have heard what you're saying in terms of personal experience, and cultural practice. I'm still waiting for something else. Some better qualification for giving a child even the smallest amount of alcohol.

Your sarcasm, above, is outside your usual character, from the posts I've seen from u on MDC, previously, so I sincerely and with affection apologize if my passion regarding this issue (which is something I advocate and educate about in the physical world as well, in ACOA) offends you, as it seems to have very much. My only purpose is to call to question the motivating factors. If someone said to me, "I don't know why we do it", I'd say to that parent that there are some great resources to get educated on the topic. If a parent told me "My parents thought it was cute..." I'd say it probably was, but new evidence (I mean new, in the last few years... NEW) says this very behavior is contributing to the stats I posted before.

My fear, when I hear parents so vehemently defend this practice without the pause for thought that says "Hmmm... Why DO we do it?"... is that their reasoning is skewed, through upbringing, or social paradigms. And that skewed reasoning (not bad, or wrong, or stupid) is what keeps we as a society from changing the way we do things on a broader, culturally healthy level. How long did it take before cigarettes were disallowed on American TV? Social consciousness, cultural awareness, and moral compass starts at home...

I SWEAR to you, I was right there in your shoes, 3 years ago. I did my homework, and had a turn-around, and hope to inspire other parents to educate themselves more about this, since there IS new information... I feel obliged to provide this pov, as some parents may want to know things they didn't, and may be ready for that turn-around.

I believe you are intelligent, loving and open-minded... not stupid. If I thought anyone here was stupid, I wouldn't waste my time.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

yup my dd has tasted alcohol. every single kind and decided they are the grossest thing.

now my worry is not alcohol. its soda. alcohol was easy. i knew she wouldnt like it. but soda is a huge issue for me.

i dont know which way to go. i swear my 4 year olds addiction to it has stopped me from drinking it. she has learnt it is a grown up drink and even though mommy has it sometimes its not good for anyone. mommy shouldnt be drinking it either. and i havent. its been months since i drunk it. but i do talk about how i long for soda sometimes but i am not going to buy it because it is not good for mommy's body.

so my dd pretends she is drinking children's soda and mommy's are allowed a teeny sip.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
All of the stats that point out how many young kids drink has nothing to do with whether or not they were given a taste of wine at their parents. Of the ones "drinking before 14" that have a higher risk of later dependency, they are "drinking" drinking...

The current state of underage drinking is indeed horrible, but that does not prove your opinion about how one arrives there and why we are at that state of affairs. I think we are there for many, many reasons, and I personally believe that one of them is the simultaneous romanticization/taboo of alcohol that exists in the U.S. Obviously how we solve the problems is not a simple solution and something that many here won't agree on. But don't think we're not aware that alcohol is some kind of problem in society and with young people, just because we don't agree in teaching that it's evil.

1) "drinking" drinking...? where do you think "drinking" drinking starts? How do YOU know it has nothing to do with being given tastes of wine at their parents' home? Some studies suggest just the opposite.

2) It is not a _personal opinion_ of mine, as to how one arrives at under-age drinking. As I've stated before, new evidence points to the practice of allowing young children acces to even small amounts of alcohol as a likely contributor to the statistics posted.

3) I have never said, nor do I believe that alcohol is evil. It IS, however you slice it, an intoxicant, and there has been no evidence that children benefit in any way from being introduced to this intoxicant. Unless you have some statistics or facts or evidence that says otherwise...

I'm always open to being educated...


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
yup my dd has tasted alcohol. every single kind and decided they are the grossest thing.

now my worry is not alcohol. its soda. alcohol was easy. i knew she wouldnt like it. but soda is a huge issue for me.

i dont know which way to go. i swear my 4 year olds addiction to it has stopped me from drinking it. she has learnt it is a grown up drink and even though mommy has it sometimes its not good for anyone. mommy shouldnt be drinking it either. and i havent. its been months since i drunk it. but i do talk about how i long for soda sometimes but i am not going to buy it because it is not good for mommy's body.

so my dd pretends she is drinking children's soda and mommy's are allowed a teeny sip.









We have the same struggle, except she's 2. We have had to cut it out, or only drink it out of the house when she's not around, or if we do have it, we just say "This is not for you... "


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I have never accused ANYONE, here, nor would I ever accuse anyone here, of being stupid. You, romans_mum, and others are frustrated by my vigilant stand that there is nothing positive to be gained by giving a child alcohol.

No one that I have seen on this thread has said that they give their kids alcohol because they think it is cute. To say that that is why people are doing it, even after those of us who do it have explained our reasons, is making fun of our reasons and implying that we have not put thoughtful consideration into this. You say that you are waiting for other reasons besides the ones posted for why some people would allow their kids to have some alcohol. I have no other reasons than the ones I stated. You can accept them or not, but they are the only ones I have.

I am not frustrated by your stand because I am comfortable with my approach. However, I am irked by your belittlement of other people's thoughtful approach to the subject, which is most likely the same thoughtful approach you used, just with different conclusions. I am irked because things like that make it hard to have a productive conversation, and productive conversation is what I come here for. And yes, I realize that I didn't respond well, and for that I apologize.

I accept your reasons for what you do. I don't agree with them, but I respect your right to choose what you feel is best for your family. To say that those who chose different do it for a reason as one-dimensional and thoughtless as it being "cute" does not show a corresponding respect for those who choose differently.

FWIW, my pediatrician gives her kids sips, too, so thoughtful and intelligent people have come to differing conclusions based on the same data.

Namaste!


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Me and my 10 foot pole poking our noses into this hot potato to say....

My parents let my sister and I have a (small) glass of spumante every thanksgiving and Christmas dinner, and other special occasions when spumante (sweet sparkling wine) was served, starting when we were about 8 years old.

Neither my sister nor myself ever had a drinking problem. We were the "nerdy" kids who were usually the designated drivers both in college and high school. As adults, we rarely drink. I have, in all honesty, MAYBE one alcoholic drink a month, and that's pushing it. I have more alcohol around the holidays, but NEVER more than one or two servings, as I have the alcohol tolerance of a house fly and am warm and slightly giddy after 1/3 of a michelob light.









My point is, my parents demystified and deglamorized alcohol for us. Hence we were never drinkers. Smoking was taboo and hush hush and kept away from us. Guess what both my sister and I did in college and high school?

Just sayin.....







:

Me and my 10 foot pole will now hop back into the shadows from whence we came.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 
Parentally supervised at-the-family table giving a 15 year old 3 oz. of wine with their dinner is more dangerous than 2 large pieces of chocolate cake with cool whip to the developing body? Where does one find stats on that?

I'm not hearing a lot from people who seem to really grasp how I was raised, how I consume alcohol today, and what I plan to do with my child - who disagree with me.

I don't get the whole 'cellular programming' thing. I *know* not to drink it during pregnancy for the obvious FAS issues.

...And they won't be curious just like I wasn't curious.

You can write off my life experience with a bunch of studies that don't describe what my childhood/teen years of experience being allowed to drink at the family table, but it doesn't work for me. I never binged, smoked anything, or had enough to alter my judgment.

I don't get the cake thing... Certainly not as it pertains to alcohol consumption and children.

I really do grasp what you're saying about how you were raised. Can you see, tho, that perhaps you and your outlook are exceptional, not average? I don't disagree with you that you have a VERY healthy knowledge about your limits, and a strong self-determination... But, can you tell me about any benefits that a child may reap from having alcohol, immediate or long-term?

Cellular programming is what happens as a human developes. During the first three years of life we create and destroy in a cataclysmic process something like 50,000 neural synapses a DAY. Based on experiences, chemical signatures, sensory stimulus, etc. It slows down until puberty, and then the body begins another cascading catharsis, and neural imprints happen more readily.

As for curiosity, surely you don't presume to know for certain how your child will react to his/her life and stimulus and peers...?

And, last, as for you and your personal experiences... you should feel very honored that your family taught you the values you have. Yours truly seems to be a very exceptional experience. I don't write it off... I merely suggest that people who have had this exceptional experience be very careful to educate themselves about what ELSE occurs, on average, and be aware that your experience may not be what your descendants experience.

Cheers!


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
No one that I have seen on this thread has said that they give their kids alcohol because they think it is cute.

Namaste!

So, everything else I may have said, however valid, or potentially enlightening, is just gone into the wind because of how you interpretted one line, in one stream of questions?

I have encountered this take, that it's cute to give a taste to a kid, elsewhere... not an uncommon perception. Not in this thread, so I can see how, when taken out of context and put in the spot light, it would seem belittling. I will go back and edit that line out, if it will help you to feel less irked.

Will you tell me about why it is a good idea to give a pre-pubescent child alcohol? What purpose is served... and if there are any other ways, in your view, to achieve that purpose that don't involve actually giving them alcohol?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
So, everything else I may have said, however valid, or potentially enlightening, is just gone into the wind because of how you interpretted one line, in one stream of questions?

No, but that's what made me respond sarcastically.

FWIW, I agree with the previous poster about the idea that there is a huge difference between kids "drinking" and kids being given small amounts of alcohol at their parents' table.

Quote:

Will you tell me about why it is a good idea to give a pre-pubescent child alcohol? What purpose is served... and if there are any other ways, in your view, to achieve that purpose that don't involve actually giving them alcohol?
Search this thread for my posts to read my reasons.

I will say that my mother is an alcoholic and my father's parents both were alcoholics. My stepfather is also an alcoholic. All my siblings (birth, adopted, and step) grew up having small amounts of alcohol in the home. Of the five of us, zero have drinking problems. Yes, it's anecdotal. Yes, it's based on my own personal experience. Yes, I know that nothing is ever 100% certain in life. Yes, I am comfortable with the choices I have made.

Do I think that there are other ways to teach kids that alcohol is a tasty beverage to be enjoyed responsibly other than letting kids enjoy the tasty beverage responsibly? Probably. I'm sure that we could brainstorm lots and lots of more- or less-feasible ways. But I don't feel the need to do so, because I believe that a good way to teach kids that alcohol is a tasty beverage to be enjoyed responsibly is to let them enjoy the tasty beverage responsibly.










Namaste!


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech* 
I worry more about children who subsist on a diet of premade, processed, ready meals than I do about my children's occasional brush with alcohol in my home.









:

Alcoholism is the _symptom_, not the disease.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Btw, PrennaMama, I don't feel like I have anything more constructive to add to this conversation, and I don't wish to engage in a tit-for-tat, so I'm bowing out now.

Namaste!


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita* 







:

Alcoholism is the _symptom_, not the disease.

Alcoholism IS a disease, and the behaviors caused by it, etc, are its symptoms... This is a hard fact.

*dharma*... Thank you so much for your clear representation. Sincerely. And your humor. So, what you're saying is: For you, it's a question of granting tastes as a privaledge. Teaching your children about the good stuff, letting them distinguish between flavors, etc? Out of curiosity, what age do they attain that privaledge, or is it easy-going, not an age-based thing? Like, your 3 yr old is told "When you are older" or your 9 year old is told "When you turn 10." etc...

eta... no tit-for-tat... just dialogue... but I respect your desire to bow out...


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Never.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

How do YOU know they are referring to kids getting sips and not getting wasted in junior high? The study you linked makes no distinction. I'll say it again- all those stats prove what we already know. That kids drink too much alcohol. We all know that. We disagree how they get there. And I agree that you're being fairly dismissive of people who come to different conclusions. (fwiw, several people did use the words "abstain" and "evil.")

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
1) "drinking" drinking...? where do you think "drinking" drinking starts? How do YOU know it has nothing to do with being given tastes of wine at their parents' home? Some studies suggest just the opposite.

2) It is not a _personal opinion_ of mine, as to how one arrives at under-age drinking. As I've stated before, new evidence points to the practice of allowing young children acces to even small amounts of alcohol as a likely contributor to the statistics posted.

3) I have never said, nor do I believe that alcohol is evil. It IS, however you slice it, an intoxicant, and there has been no evidence that children benefit in any way from being introduced to this intoxicant. Unless you have some statistics or facts or evidence that says otherwise...

I'm always open to being educated...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
Of the people who began drinking before age 14, 47% became dependent at some point, compared with 9% of those who began drinking at age 21 or older.

I've got to go out, so I don't have a lot of time. But, can I ask what this has to do with parents allowing their kids to have some wine with dinner at Christmas?

I knew lots of kids who were drinking at 14 or 15. I was one of them. I didn't get into drinking because I got sips from my parents. I got into drinking because I was depressed (undiagnosed), suicidal, suffering severe PMS, socially ostracized and had a history of sexual abuse. I hated my life and wanted to be numb. Numbness was all I wanted from life. I don't know if I was ever truly dependent, but I definitely drank too much for several years. I'm not an alcoholic, and my drinking was definitely a symptom of existing problems, not the cause.

Incidentally - my friends who were abusing alcohol at 14...every single one of them came from either a violently (sometimes sexually violent) abusive home, a home where parents provided totally unrestricted access to alcohol and other drugs, or a teetotal home. I was the _only_ exception to that...my dad is an alcoholic, but wasn't violent or sexual with me. None of us came from homes where alcohol was used in a responsible fashion.

IME, when a child of 14 or under is getting into the use of alcohol, there's an existing issue in place. These are people who are far more likely to fall under the sway than those who get to 21 without feeling the need to get numb to survive.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

yeah there's a lot of numbing going on in our society. I think numbing is a huge part of it, as kids are under more and more pressure.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
yeah there's a lot of numbing going on in our society. I think numbing is a huge part of it, as kids are under more and more pressure.

That, and splintering of families and support networks, so kids don't feel as supported/loved as they need, hence the numbing. The feeling that you are loved and valued, just as you are, by ANYONE, not necessarily a family member, can be a literal lifesaver for some kids. I think a lot of kids are missing that feeling today, and are filling it up with things like drugs and alcohol.

But that is another thread entirely....


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

This may sound totally off topic...but as a question in all seriousness....

What's worse in your minds?
A sip of alcohol here and there
OR
A glass of soda whenever they want it


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

I didn't read all but my opinion is hell no my dc is not allowed near the stuff. Nor is she allowed to have soda that is def a huge no. I rarely if ever drink soda or alchol...I don't even let her have straight juice its always like a splash of juice to an entire glass of water.

NCM-both are bad and will not happen in my home for a long time...maybe when she is 17+ I will let her try a alcholic beverage but not before then.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *northcountrymamma* 
This may sound totally off topic...but as a question in all seriousness....

What's worse in your minds?
A sip of alcohol here and there
OR
A glass of soda whenever they want it

Definitely soda. Still I think alcohol is unhealthy.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *northcountrymamma* 
This may sound totally off topic...but as a question in all seriousness....

What's worse in your minds?
A sip of alcohol here and there
OR
A glass of soda whenever they want it

Soda - hands down.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

I just don't get why anyone would give there child soda...its sugar nothing about it is good for your child.


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

:

I would NEVER EVER let dd drink soda...I never ever drink it, don't let it in my house, it's gross, highly addictive and I like my teeth as they are! (from the dots on is 100% true)

But, If I took that stance and referred to all people who let their children drink soda to be totally off the wall, would those of you who have been so critical of us who let our children have sips of alcohol get down my throat for thsi stance.

My point is...we all have our opinions as to what we will do with our children. But a definate NO when it comes to what we will let our kids do is tough to understand. Trying things out is part of life. IMHO, _If we hinder experiences of so called taboo things under our supervision it is naive to believe that it wont happen out of our sight._ My worry is that this will put my dd in a dangerous situation which I would never want for her. There is enough danger in our world, I don't need to worry about her hiding her participation in a mind altering substance and potentially being harmed by her clouded judgement.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I have enjoyed the spirited discussion here, have offered up new information for those who would like it, and respect those of you who continue the long-standing tradition of allowing tastes of alcohol to your children for the various reasons listed. I sincerely wish you the best, warmly, and hope you all have a joyful season!

For anyone interested in further education, or the newest information available, regarding children and alcohol, for adult children of recovering or non-recovering alcoholics, or anyone therein or in-between, please feel welcome to PM me for further dialogue, additional references and resources.

It took a long time, a child, and a sudden desire to be educated on a topic I hadn't even realized affected my life as intensely as it had, to come to the place where I was ready to dismiss *my* assumptions and look at alcohol, it's place in society and in my life, from a different perspective. No judgements, no expectations, no condemning...

I am thankful parents are thinking about this stuff... thankful to have the opportunity to talk with some of you about it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
It took a long time, a child, and a sudden desire to be educated on a topic I hadn't even realized affected my life as intensely as it had, to come to the place where I was ready to dismiss *my* assumptions and look at alcohol, it's place in society and in my life, from a different perspective. No judgements, no expectations, no condemning...

I am thankful parents are thinking about this stuff... thankful to have the opportunity to talk with some of you about it.

If it helps any, though I've come to a different conclusion than you, I've been looking at alcohol from every perspective I can think of for about 20 years. I've been in the place of second-guessing every drink that crossed my lips - "am I an alcoholic?" because my dad is...I've been where every drink was "proof" that I was an alcoholic...I've been where every drink I _didn't_ drink was "proof" that I was an alcoholic (trying to control, yk?). There is no doubt in my mind that the stuff is dangerous...no doubt at all.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

This page from the American Medical Association talks about the effects of alcohol use on growing children.

It clearly differentiates those who "drink moderately or not at all" and "frequent drinkers." It talks about "abusers" and "binge drinkers."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AMA*
Lasting implications
Compared to students who drink moderately or not at all, frequent drinkers may never be able to catch up in adulthood, since alcohol inhibits systems crucial for storing new information as long-term memories and makes it difficult to immediately remember what was just learned.

Additionally, those who binge once a week or increase their drinking from age 18 to 24 may have problems attaining the goals of young adulthood-marriage, educational attainment, employment, and financial independence. And rather than "outgrowing" alcohol use, young abusers are significantly more likely to have drinking problems as adults.

It does not say that moderate or infrequent, responsible use of alcohol by young people causes any of the problems it talks about.

I Googled "effects of alcohol on children" and read almost a dozen different sites/pages. Lots of the sites talked about children who are at risk for alcohol abuse. I saw nothing that said that children who come from families where alcohol use is responsibly modeled, whose parents discuss alcohol use/abuse with their children, and whose parents occasionally allow them to have a sip of alcohol are at increased risk of becoming abusers of alcohol.

The information I found about the detrimental effects of alcohol on children all referred to children who drink to intoxication. I didn't find anything about detrimental effects on children who take a sip every once in a while.

If anyone can direct me to information that contradicts what I have found, I am honestly interested in reading it.

Namaste!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I would too. Why not just share it instead of implying that anyone who doesn't agree isn't up to date in their research, doens't "want new information" or "further education"? Every time I think eveyrone happily agrees to disagree I see these insinuations that we are totally ignorant or do so for reasons that no one has stated. I can see that you have really done some kind of turnaround, but just b/c others haven't doesn't mean they hadn't thought about it. And maybe it was just a random or poor word choice, but my attitude and approach is not about "long-standing traditions". I firmly believe based on _my_ research and experience that something completely forbidden and marked taboo while simultaneously romanticized by our culture will be too great a temptation once my child is older and not under my supervision 100% of the time. I think demystifiying it and letting them become aware of it under our roof is a better approach. That doesn't mean I'm merrily letting them drink it, or that I won't educate them about the perils of it when they are slightly older. And since we enjoy it and have been fortunate enough (and careful too) to be unscathed by it, I hope that our modeling of drinking occasionally and in moderation will also help them grow up to be responsible around alcohol. I certainly don't expect all parents to agree or understand. Doesn't mean I don't understand the dire state of affairs wrt underage (and all age) drinking.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 

If anyone can direct me to information that contradicts what I have found, I am honestly interested in reading it.

Namaste!

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc.../dp/0553274872 This doesn't directly _contradict_ what you found, and props to you for going and looking! It does, however, from what I remember, have information about the behavior that is being discussed, that is, the practice of allowing tastes to small children, and suggests that this may contribute to teen-drinking and alcoholism... Disclaimer: Please understand I value your intention and family-experience; I respect your steadfastness and the way you have described how you are raising your family; I am not attempting to villify parents who do this, nor was I attacking those who feel okay with this. I have posted the above book several times now, and several times have made sure to assert my respect for you ladies, and for the fact that it is a time-honored practice...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Why not just share it instead of implying that anyone who doesn't agree isn't up to date in their research, doens't "want new information" or "further education"? Every time I think eveyrone happily agrees to disagree I see these insinuations that we are totally ignorant or do so for reasons that no one has stated. I can see that you have really done some kind of turnaround, but just b/c others haven't doesn't mean they hadn't thought about it. And maybe it was just a random or poor word choice, but my attitude and approach is not about "long-standing traditions". I firmly believe based on _my_ research and experience that something completely forbidden and marked taboo while simultaneously romanticized by our culture will be too great a temptation once my child is older and not under my supervision 100% of the time. I think demystifiying it and letting them become aware of it under our roof is a better approach. That doesn't mean I'm merrily letting them drink it, or that I won't educate them about the perils of it when they are slightly older. And since we enjoy it and have been fortunate enough (and careful too) to be unscathed by it, I hope that our modeling of drinking occasionally and in moderation will also help them grow up to be responsible around alcohol. I certainly don't expect all parents to agree or understand. Doesn't mean I don't understand the dire state of affairs wrt underage (and all age) drinking.

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Influenc.../dp/0553274872 And here it is again... for all to see... this is the book that a friend showed me, and I like it. You might not. But I HAVE posted MY source for the information that I have been referring to, more than a couple of times... That book, plus classes and meetings, and other texts, are what bring ME to MY conclusion that giving young children alcohol is a bad idea. There are no insinuations, implications assumptions nor judgements, here, from me. I am what is known in the AA community as an Adult Child Of Alcoholics... ACOA, and provide mentorship and education, referrals, and support to others in my community. I meant only to offer that same info to anyone here who might want it. I don't believe I suffer from random or poor word-choice in referring to a long-standing tradition... it IS one... I was not speaking of any one person's motivation. It's something many families have done for a long time, do, now, and will do long into the future, I'm sure... = long-standing tradition. I think it's great you have a plan. Demystifying alcohol is a good start! Education about alcohol? Awesome. I never said I thought u were ignorant, or oblivious of the current state of affairs in the world. You don't have to agree with me when I say I think that, based on what I've learned, giving children alcohol is a bad idea.

For once and for all... I just wanted to know why it's a good idea, to others... as it once may have seemed to me. I see you mamas have given it thought... and you've come to the conclusion that you will allow tastes, and that this will be a chance for you to help your children to learn about, understand, and possibly respect alcohol, it's place in society, in your homes, and in their lives....

No insinuations... just what it says. No judgement... I seek only mutual understanding.


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## Dael (Jan 1, 2007)

Old thread.

Yes we let our kids have an alcoholic drink(not beer though) and becuase our herritage, DH is French/Spanish and I'm 1/2 Greek both of us have been used to eat since we where babies.

And no trouble we just drink wine at dinner and weekly the boys have a tiny glass of wine 3 times a week and DD has 2 drops of wine from DH finger.

I was thought by this way to respect alcohol and it worked for us and it's kind of boring for me know I prefer soda(we don't give the kids osda though)
My family and DH's family have been exposed to alcohol since babies and guess what? There's no alcoholics in either families


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