# Not tightening straps for infant carseat



## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

I went to pick up my son from school the other day and as I did so another mom was carrying her 4-5 month old in his car-seat on her way to get her older child. I happened to notice that the seatbelt was VERY loose - not tightened in the slightest.

I really, really wanted to say something to her but I didn't know what to say or how to phrase it so I just ignored it. I considered the option that maybe she just loosened it for the moment while she was carrying the car-seat and that she would tighten it up again before driving off in the car (I HOPE that was the case!)...

But I see this often at our LLL meetings -- moms don't tighten up the seatbelts for their infants because the babies cry and don't like them tight. I know its none of my business, but I worry about the safety of those babies. What if something happened like that mother got into a collision and her baby died because of it and there was someting that *I* could have done or said to prevent that from happening? I feel bad not doing or saying anything.

What would you have done or said to this mom?


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## TrippyLongstocking (Feb 27, 2007)

i would have said , oh my the starps are really loose.. JUST SO YOU KNOW and then smiled really








and then....
they probably would hate me and gossip about me like more than half the moms at my sons school already do


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## CarolynnMarilynn (Jun 3, 2004)

I made a promise to myself that I will offer that unsolicited advice - it may just save a life. I would say, "hey I noticed the straps are way loose. I used to do that too until someone pointed out that they wouldn't save the baby at *all* in a crash." Then if they were receptive I would mention how tight they should be and that it should be tight enough that if we turned the seat upside down the baby would be strapped in all safe. And the chest piece being at the right height. I see it down too low all the time. I haven't had anyone be rude to me yet.

Carolynn


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Roflmao!!!


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## TrippyLongstocking (Feb 27, 2007)




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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

I've got a similar struggle. I babysit a little girl since she was 4months old. She is now 13 months old. Every time I go to put her in the carseat her mother leaves for her I am AMAZED at how loose the straps are. I tighten them up. Then mom complaines about it later when SHE has to loosen them. We've talked about it. It makes no difference.

I HAVE succesfully convinced her to leave her rear facing beyond the first birthday. At least so far!


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarolynnMarilynn* 
Then if they were receptive I would mention how tight they should be and that it should be tight enough that if we turned the seat upside down the baby would be strapped in all safe. And the chest piece being at the right height. I see it down too low all the time. I haven't had anyone be rude to me yet.
Carolynn

What is it that they say about two fingers? That you should be able to fit just two fingers between the belt and their body? (Where do you do that test, at the top of the shoulder? or by their chest piece?).


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
What is it that they say about two fingers? That you should be able to fit just two fingers between the belt and their body? (Where do you do that test, at the top of the shoulder? or by their chest piece?).

since different people have different sized fingers, the pinch test is more accurate. if you can pinch a horizontal fold at the shoulders it's too loose.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
since different people have different sized fingers, the pinch test is more accurate. if you can pinch a horizontal fold at the shoulders it's too loose.


Ah, ok. That's a good rule of thumb, thanks. I'll remember that if it comes up again or if I see the same thing again today.


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## katt (Nov 29, 2001)

Thanks for this piece of info. I KNOW that the straps need to be tight, I make sure they are very snug. My sister, for her baby, not so much, and the chest piece is way low. My DH has also said how I have the straps too tight, but he doesn't loosen them. Now, I have an actual guideline for them to follow! yea!


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## jennica (Aug 10, 2005)

My SIL and brother did this with my neice when she was younger. I hated it and I got my mom to say something to them. They didn't care, they did it anyway. I think one problem is that some of the cheaper infant car seats are not easily adjustable. You have to go in from the back and tighten the straps, and not just pull a cord on the bottom. If that is the case, you can't easily tighten or loosen the straps to get baby in and out, and it is such a hassle to get them in when the straps are already tight! This was the case with my neice, and her mom was too lazy to tighten it from the back each time she put her in. I think it is a flaw in the design of the car seats. It's not something that new mothers would even think to look for when choosing a car seat either.


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennica* 
My SIL and brother did this with my neice when she was younger. I hated it and I got my mom to say something to them. They didn't care, they did it anyway. I think one problem is that some of the cheaper infant car seats are not easily adjustable. You have to go in from the back and tighten the straps, and not just pull a cord on the bottom. If that is the case, you can't easily tighten or loosen the straps to get baby in and out, and it is such a hassle to get them in when the straps are already tight! This was the case with my neice, and her mom was too lazy to tighten it from the back each time she put her in. I think it is a flaw in the design of the car seats. It's not something that new mothers would even think to look for when choosing a car seat either.

I totally agree with this; our infant car seat was this way, and I hated it!

But yes, I see kids in car seats with loose straps all the time, and not just infants. Many of the people who do this are friends too, but I have never said anything...


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I see that all the time and it drives me nuts! The other day, at the doctor's office, there was a baby in a carrier and the straps weren't even on his shoulders they were so loose. And the people had just walked in from the car, I highly doubt they loosened the straps just upon exiting the car.

I've been known to tighten straps when people aren't looking. Not perfect strangers, because that would just be weird, but friends and family.

I just don't think it's rocket science and I can't understand what the problem is. If the straps are loose, the kid can fly out in an accident. End of story.

I tried telling someone her daughter's straps were loose one time. The baby was actually picking up the chest clip and putting it in her mouth, it was that loose. And she said, "Well, sometimes it's looser or tighter depending on what she's wearing and I'm not about to mess with the straps every time!" And that was a college educated person too. Makes you wonder if they can start offering courses in common sense.


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## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

I would appreciate someone telling me. There were a few times when DS was small that we realized after we arrived somewhere that we had forgotten to tighten the straps. We were so horrified!


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## LinzluvsGJ (Mar 16, 2004)

I have started telling people when I see it incorrectly used (too loose of straps or incorrect chest clip placement). I even made sure it was brought up when a local fire marshall visited our MOPs group (even though he didn't come to talk about carseat safety lol) because I had noticed a number of moms using it incorrectly in the past. I don't know if people think I'm rude or get mad when I tell them and gossip about it, but I at least want that info out there in case they really didn't know they were doing it wrong...or feel guilted into doing it right if they were just slacking off! I would want someone to let me know if they knew something I was doing was incorrect for my child's safety... my kids mean everything to me!


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
What is it that they say about two fingers? That you should be able to fit just two fingers between the belt and their body? (Where do you do that test, at the top of the shoulder? or by their chest piece?).

It's actually ONE finger now in Canada. I just found out about that new law from the NICU when I left with my DS a month ago.

I don't know if it's the same in the USA too though.

Sheal


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I've been known to tighten straps when people aren't looking. Not perfect strangers, because that would just be weird, but friends and family.

What's the point in that? When the kid starts screaming, they'll just loosen them again.

The chest clip - what is anybody supposed to do about that, anyway? DD hates it, and as soon as we're in motion, she shoves it down. The only time she doesn't is when she falls asleep. I don't think stopping dead in traffic is any safer than leaving it like that, so I'm not sure how to fix it...

I'm still not sold on the freaking things, anyway - and every time I read a thread like this, I'm less sold on them.


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## LinzluvsGJ (Mar 16, 2004)

You're not sold on car seats? They have greatly reduced deaths and injuries in children in car accidents.







:

As for proper placement of the chest clip, it not only holds the straps in the proper location, but it needs to be in the correct place to minimize injuries to the child's body. My children don't move it down once it's in place (well, Grace did a couple times til I told her under no uncertain terms is she to do so because she could get hurt). I can see how some older kids can, but especially w/ infant seats most are not able to do so on their own. It's the parents' responsibility to be sure their children are correctly and safely in their seats in a moving vehicle.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LinzluvsGJ* 
You're not sold on car seats? They have greatly reduced deaths and injuries in children in car accidents.







:

Really? Got any links? I've honestly never read anything that says that. I"ve seen all kinds of car seat propaganda, here and elsewhere, but nothing substantial.

Quote:

As for proper placement of the chest clip, it not only holds the straps in the proper location, but it needs to be in the correct place to minimize injuries to the child's body. My children don't move it down once it's in place (well, Grace did a couple times til I told her under no uncertain terms is she to do so because she could get hurt). I can see how some older kids can, but especially w/ infant seats most are not able to do so on their own. It's the parents' responsibility to be sure their children are correctly and safely in their seats in a moving vehicle.
So, basically, it's my responsibility to not drive. DD can and does move down the chest clip. I've told her she can get hurt. I've told her that many times. It makes no difference. I know what the clip is for - if I've wasted the money and time on the freaking seats, I might as well use them properly. But, _I'm_ not the one in the seat, and there's absolutely no way I can make sure the clip is in place while driving.


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What's the point in that? When the kid starts screaming, they'll just loosen them again.

The chest clip - what is anybody supposed to do about that, anyway? DD hates it, and as soon as we're in motion, she shoves it down. The only time she doesn't is when she falls asleep. I don't think stopping dead in traffic is any safer than leaving it like that, so I'm not sure how to fix it...

I'm still not sold on the freaking things, anyway - and every time I read a thread like this, I'm less sold on them.


The chest clip is a pre crash positioner, she slips it down to her belly and you have a HUGE likelyhood of her being ejected from the entire vehicle during a crash. Thus she's at a huge risk for death, unfortunately. Take her weight and multiply it by how fast your going at the time of impact and that's how heavy she'll be during a crash. Heavy things have a tendancy to want to fly out during crashes. Adults have airbags. Airbags aren't pillows that are used to catch your soft falling graceful head during a crash- they're used to stop your body from trying to fly out the windshield.

The chest clips ONLY purpose is to make sure the shoulder straps stay on top of the shoulders (which is much harder to do when you've got a CHEST clip on your BELLY) I understand the pulling it down, but if it was taught at an early age that the clip stays up and the harness is tight no matter what- chances are it wouldn't be an issue now. But given your general response and skepticism, I can understand why your DD is non compliant.

I'm not even going to address the "freaking things" comment- One of my good friends is an accident reconstructionist (sp?) and i've heard about way too many crashes, seen way too many crashes not to believe in "those freaking things".


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Really? Got any links? I've honestly never read anything that says that. I"ve seen all kinds of car seat propaganda, here and elsewhere, but nothing substantial.

http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=696

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/mi...TE=Jun+5,+2006

I agree that kids should be in carseats. They should fit the child and be properly installed and the straps should be appropriately fastened.

In a crash though, every little bit that restrains & redistributes the forces helps - a car seat is generally better than no carseat even if the straps are a little loose.

To the OP - I think mentioning it once pleasantly is fine. When my son was an infant we did have one of the terror seats where the straps were really hard to adjust and in my sleep deprived state I did make the judgement error of travelling with them somewhat loose a couple of times. I would have been embarassed to be called on it, but I think it would have been a good thing.


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## LinzluvsGJ (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, basically, it's my responsibility to not drive. DD can and does move down the chest clip. I've told her she can get hurt. I've told her that many times. It makes no difference. I know what the clip is for - if I've wasted the money and time on the freaking seats, I might as well use them properly. But, _I'm_ not the one in the seat, and there's absolutely no way I can make sure the clip is in place while driving.









: That's not what I said... while driving it can be difficult to be sure that your child is staying where they're supposed to be, I agree... but I think the subject of the thread is more that parents should be educated to begin with of where it should be initially and at least make an effort to be sure the child is buckled in properly, kwim? No one is saying that you're not doing that.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

So, basically, it's my responsibility to not drive. DD can and does move down the chest clip. I've told her she can get hurt. I've told her that many times. It makes no difference. I know what the clip is for - if I've wasted the money and time on the freaking seats, I might as well use them properly. But, _I'm_ not the one in the seat, and there's absolutely no way I can make sure the clip is in place while driving.

I don't believe anyone is insinuating that you not drive. The chest clip is a pre-crash positioner and it's job is to keep the shoulder straps up on the shoulder to prevent ejection or excess and unnatural body movement of a young (physically immature) occupant, which could lead to serious injury or death. I understand some little ones can be houdini like. Continue to stress the importance to her that she shouldn't fiddle with the clip and eventually, hopefully, as with most curious phases our little ones go through, she'll get bored and leave it alone. By making sure the harness straps are snug, you can also lessen the ability for her to be able to slide the clip up and down so easily.

DC


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSavannahsMommy* 
The chest clip is a pre crash positioner, she slips it down to her belly and you have a HUGE likelyhood of her being ejected from the entire vehicle during a crash. Thus she's at a huge risk for death, unfortunately. Take her weight and multiply it by how fast your going at the time of impact and that's how heavy she'll be during a crash. Heavy things have a tendancy to want to fly out during crashes. Adults have airbags. Airbags aren't pillows that are used to catch your soft falling graceful head during a crash- they're used to stop your body from trying to fly out the windshield.

The chest clips ONLY purpose is to make sure the shoulder straps stay on top of the shoulders (which is much harder to do when you've got a CHEST clip on your BELLY) I understand the pulling it down, but if it was taught at an early age that the clip stays up and the harness is tight no matter what- chances are it wouldn't be an issue now. But given your general response and skepticism, I can understand why your DD is non compliant.

Jump to conclusions much? I've told her ever since she was old enough to play with the chest clip that it has to stay where it is. I've told her that it doesn't protect her if it's not in the right place. I've given her the party line from the get go. I've waited an hour in the van until she agrees to get in her seat. I've done the trip of forcing the screaming child into the seat on occasion, too - sometimes I really have to be somewhere. She hates the clip. She finds it uncomfortable. So, she moves it. It has nothing to do with my hatred of car seats.

Quote:

I'm not even going to address the "freaking things" comment- One of my good friends is an accident reconstructionist (sp?) and i've heard about way too many crashes, seen way too many crashes not to believe in "those freaking things".
I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'm way too hot and tired to articulate them clearly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I don't believe anyone is insinuating that you not drive.

If we're all going to be gung-ho about car seats, the logical next step is to stop driving. It's the vehicle, not the lack of car seats, that causes injury. That aside...if it's a parent's responsibility to ensure that the child is properly harnessed _while the vehicle is moving_, then it's my responsibility not to drive. Maybe I'll consider that.

Quote:

The chest clip is a pre-crash positioner and it's job is to keep the shoulder straps up on the shoulder to prevent ejection or excess and unnatural body movement of a young (physically immature) occupant, which could lead to serious injury or death. I understand some little ones can be houdini like. Continue to stress the importance to her that she shouldn't fiddle with the clip and eventually, hopefully, as with most curious phases our little ones go through, she'll get bored and leave it alone. By making sure the harness straps are snug, you can also lessen the ability for her to be able to slide the clip up and down so easily.
Okay - I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think you're now the third person in this thread to explain the purpose of the chest clip. I know what the chest clip is for. That doesn't have anything to do with dd moving it. And, she doesn't generally move it "easily". The harness straps are snug...that's one of the reasons why she and I hate the damned seat.


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## SmallWorld (Jan 1, 2007)

StormBride:

It comes down to this: She is your child and you are responsible for all actions that happen to her. YOU are the one that has to live with it, not us. We have provided you the facts and info regarding Child Passenger Safety, now you can choose to ignore or do something about it.

Your attitude about Carseats strikes me kind of odd.

The only suggestion I have for you regarding the Chest-Piece is to maybe install it backwards on the harness straps. That might make it harder for her to slide down.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If we're all going to be gung-ho about car seats, the logical next step is to stop driving. It's the vehicle, not the lack of car seats, that causes injury. That aside...if it's a parent's responsibility to ensure that the child is properly harnessed _while the vehicle is moving_, then it's my responsibility not to drive. Maybe I'll consider that.

Okay - I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think you're now the third person in this thread to explain the purpose of the chest clip. I know what the chest clip is for. That doesn't have anything to do with dd moving it. And, she doesn't generally move it "easily". The harness straps are snug...that's one of the reasons why she and I hate the damned seat.

You sound frustrated. You sound like you are trying your best. Not driving or ever riding in a MV is the only foolproof way to avoid being injured or killed in a collision, yes. I agree. But for many it is not feasible.
You understand the importance of a child restraint and you are educated on the function of the chest clip. Fair enough.

Peace.
DC


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmallWorld* 
It comes down to this. She is your child and you are responsible for all actions that happen to her. YOU are the one that has to live with it, not us. We have provided you the facts and info regarding Child Passenger Safety, now you can choose to ignore or do something about it.

Your attitude about Carseats strikes me kind of odd.

The only suggestion I have for you regarding the Chest-Piece is to maybe install it backwards on the harness straps. That might make it harder for her to slide down.









I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
You sound frustrated. You sound like you are trying your best. Not driving or ever riding in a MV is the only foolproof way to avoid being injured or killed in a collision, yes. I agree. But for many it is not feasible.

No - there is no way to avoid being injured or killed in a collision. The closest any of my children has come to being killed in a car accident was when ds1 and I were crossing the street, and a guy turned left on a red (in the pouring rain) and almost ran us down. He missed ds1 by less than 6 inches.

Quote:

You understand the importance of a child restraint and you are educated on the function of the chest clip. Fair enough.
Not entirely true, but functionally close enough. DH accepts that they're "necessary", and since we've already blown the money, I might as well use them properly.


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## SmallWorld (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.

What carseat is she using?

Try turning it around as I suggested, and then when you go to put her in the seat or take her out just loosen the straps. You shouldn't have any problems. If it is a little hard so be it, but it is better than her riding around without the chestpiece at her armpit level.

Motor Vehicle Accidents are the #1 killer of adults and children ages 1-34. What attitude do you find strange? That attitude that we advocates want to make sure every child is restrained properly ever single car ride?
It's not just fatalities that are scary, is the permanent damage that a child and parent may have to live with because the child was not restrained properly ie: Paralyzed, brain injury, broken bones, severed limbs, etc...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmallWorld* 
Try turning it around as I suggested, and then when you go to put her in the seat or take her out just loosen the straps. You shouldn't have any problems. If it is a little hard so be it, but it is better than her riding around without the chestpiece at her armpit level.

Motor Vehicle Accidents are the #1 killer of adults and children ages 1-34. What attitude do you find strange? That attitude that we advocates want to make sure every child is restrained properly ever single car ride?
It's not just fatalities that are scary, is the permanent damage that a child and parent may have to live with because the child was not restrained properly ie: Paralyzed, brain injury, broken bones, severed limbs, etc...

I loosen the straps every time I put her in. Then, I tighten the straps and listen to her scream. Doing up the chest clip is almost impossible as it is. If I turn it around, I doubt I'll be able to...and I don't think having it completely undone is any safer than not having it in the right spot. If I can do it up and put it where it's supposed to be, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't move it back down.

I find the attitude that mothers who don't use a car seat, even once, are ignorant, negligent or even abusive very strange. So, a child who is restrained properly _can't_ be injured or killed? I'd never heard that, but that's what your language (and that of other car seat advocates) seems to be implying.


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## SmallWorld (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I loosen the straps every time I put her in. Then, I tighten the straps and listen to her scream. Doing up the chest clip is almost impossible as it is. If I turn it around, I doubt I'll be able to...and I don't think having it completely undone is any safer than not having it in the right spot. If I can do it up and put it where it's supposed to be, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't move it back down.

I find the attitude that mothers who don't use a car seat, even once, are ignorant, negligent or even abusive very strange. So, a child who is restrained properly _can't_ be injured or killed? I'd never heard that, but that's what your language (and that of other car seat advocates) seems to be implying.

What carseat is she in by the way?

If you flip it around she *may* not be able to get a good grip on the chestpiece to slide it down.

I don't think anyone is saying that a child is *never* going to be injured because they are in a child restraint, but rather let's do everything we can to prevent injury. Like making sure all harnesses are tight, the chestpiece is in the right place, the child restraint is installed tightly, the child is in the correct child restraint, etc...

Although a child is *in* a child restraint does not make them 100% safe. If the straps aren't tight enough, for example, there are many things that can happen to seriously injure the child.

What we do know is that if we do everything we can to strap them to their restraints and make them *as one* with the vehicle (with built in crumple zones), then our children have a fair chance of walking away from even a horrific accident unharmed or forever permanently injured. Which is what I think *you* as a mother would want.









I think if you saw some gruesome after accident photographs of children's bodies you may change your mind about carseat safety. I have some if you would like me to send them to you? But, just warning you they are not for the faint of heart. It shows the reality of it all. If your child is not properly restrained they *WILL* become a horrible statistic


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
No - there is no way to avoid being injured or killed in a collision. The closest any of my children has come to being killed in a car accident was when ds1 and I were crossing the street, and a guy turned left on a red (in the pouring rain) and almost ran us down. He missed ds1 by less than 6 inches.

I realize that many pedestrians and cyclists for example, are injured and killed by cars every year. That is why I specifically stated when driving or riding in a MV there is no chance of being in a wreck; this comment being in relation to your not driving statement and your child safety seat comments. I was agreeing with you on that point if this makes sense.
This is the part of your post I was commenting on there:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's the vehicle, not the lack of car seats, that causes injury. That aside...if it's a parent's responsibility to ensure that the child is properly harnessed while the vehicle is moving, then it's my responsibility not to drive. Maybe I'll consider that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=696

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/mi...TE=Jun+5,+2006

The first one is useless, as it doesn't actually give any information about the study. It says "we did a study and car seats work" - that's all.

The other one I'm still working through. My brain doesn't seem to be processing numbers tonight. That's very strange for me, and I'm not sure if it's because I'm pregnant or because I'm too hot.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmallWorld* 
What carseat is she in by the way?

If you flip it around she *may* not be able to get a good grip on the chestpiece to slide it down.

I don't remember what brand it is. She can definitely grip it from either side.

I don't think anyone is saying that a child is *never* going to be injured because they are in a child restraint, but rather let's do everything we can to prevent injury. Like making sure all harnesses are tight, the chestpiece is in the right place, the child restraint is installed tightly, the child is in the correct child restraint, etc...

Although a child is *in* a child restraint does not make them 100% safe. If the straps aren't tight enough, for example, there are many things that can happen to seriously injure the child.

What we do know is that if we do everything we can to strap them to their restraints and make them *as one* with the vehicle (with built in crumple zones), then our children have a fair chance of walking away from even a horrific accident unharmed or forever permanently injured. Which is what I think *you* as a mother would want.







[/quote]
No - actually what I want is to never be in an accident at all. This is one of the reasons why I rarely drive with the kids in the car.

I'm still not convinced that tormenting my child in small ways for years is better than the risk that she _might_ be badly injured if I don't do so.

Maybe my attitude is skewed from having been bounced all over the car as a small child...and having no lasting effects from it.

Quote:

I think if you saw some gruesome after accident photographs of children's bodies you may change your mind about carseat safety. I have some if you would like me to send them to you? But, just warning you they are not for the faint of heart. It shows the reality of it all. If your child is not properly restrained they *WILL* become a horrible statistic








I don't like gore, but that won't change my mind. I have seen some accident shots, and I have seen some absolutely tear-jerking statements from moms who have lost their babies.

Statements like "they *WILL* become a horrible statistic" actually push me further in the other direction. Kids do survive accidents when not restrained correctly. Kids do die while restrained. And, none of it is relevant at all if there's no accident in the first place. Making this into absolutes doesn't serve anyone.


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## babymakesthree (Oct 6, 2006)

I just read through this whole thread and I have one thing to say:







:


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babymakesthree* 
I just read through this whole thread and I have one thing to say:







:









:


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

no kidding.







:

Car seats save lives. It is a fact. If you research it, you will find the facts, they are there. Because your kid "doesnt like it" doesnt seem like a very good reason to not protect them when you could, would you let her play in traffic if she wanted to? I mean, there is only a chance she would get hit...and i played in traffic when i was little, and i survived..so it must be okay







:


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

i tell people all the time when they are using their car seats incorrectly...i just try to find a nice way to do it and try not to offend. Not everyone understands how important it is...i never did until it was pointed out to me a few times, and then i wondered what all the fuss was about, researched, and became better educated on car seat safety. Even if you can get one person to make a change, and become safer, it would be worth it to me.


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## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.


I wanted to make just one tiny little suggestion. Not trying to make you a carseat believer, LOL. But have you tried her in a different carseat? My understanding is that they are not all equally comfortable. There are some car seat forums that have great suggestions for very good seats at reasonable prices (i.e. doesn't always have to be a $300 Britax).

I've often wondered what I'd do if DS started tweaking with the carseat and have just been thankful it hasn't occurred to him yet. I'm sure it is frustrating for you.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
She hates the clip. She finds it uncomfortable. So, she moves it. It has nothing to do with my hatred of car seat.

It sounds like your daughter is very strong willed... my DS is the same and he needs to experience what the consequences are before he learns the rule. He is constantly testing boundaries to make sure that the consequence is consistent and if I waver even the slightest bit he picks up on that and it is a constant struggle to make those rules stick.

However, consistency always wins in the end. It is frustrating and annoying at times having to pull over the car because he un buckles his seatbelt. But I know that if I don't do that even one time then I know that he will think it is okay to take off his seatbelt and that it's not really a firm rule.

Your DD has learnt that having the chest clip up is not really a firm rule because sometimes you keep driving when her chest clip is down. You asked what are you supposed to do, not drive? I would say that is exactly what you do. You stop driving, pull over and sit in the van until she chooses to put the clip back up where it is supposed to be. If you do that EVERY time and not just SOME of the time, then your DD will learn that this is a firm rule and that you mean business. She WILL learn the rule, but you need to be consistent.


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

i would say something- sometimes people know and dont care, but sometimes people really dont know. i had a friend who talked with one of her friedns about it- she has triplets and friend was helping her strap them all in, and mentioned how loose the straps were. mom didnt know they were supposed to be tighter


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
It sounds like your daughter is very strong willed... my DS is the same and he needs to experience what the consequences are before he learns the rule. He is constantly testing boundaries to make sure that the consequence is consistent and if I waver even the slightest bit he picks up on that and it is a constant struggle to make those rules stick.

However, consistency always wins in the end. It is frustrating and annoying at times having to pull over the car because he un buckles his seatbelt. But I know that if I don't do that even one time then I know that he will think it is okay to take off his seatbelt and that it's not really a firm rule.

Your DD has learnt that having the chest clip up is not really a firm rule because sometimes you keep driving when her chest clip is down. You asked what are you supposed to do, not drive? I would say that is exactly what you do. You stop driving, pull over and sit in the van until she chooses to put the clip back up where it is supposed to be. If you do that EVERY time and not just SOME of the time, then your DD will learn that this is a firm rule and that you mean business. She WILL learn the rule, but you need to be consistent.

If you only drive where you can pull over, that's great. I don't. I tend to drive either locally - to and from the grocery store for large shops, for example - or into Vancouver proper (I live in a...sort of a suburb, but not really). My drives into Vancouver don't include luxuries like somewhere to pull over. I've been _30 minutes_ late for an ICAN meeting because I was looking for somewhere to park. The roads are narrow enough that people going in opposite directions have to stop and let each other through. Pulling over simply isn't possible. I once had to drive dd for 10 minutes while she puked all over herself and her seat, because there was _nowhere else to go_.

Even my short local hops don't usually have anywhere I could pull over to fix her clip...by the time there's a place to pull over, I'm there.

I know that being consistent is supposed to be foolproof (it's not - I know at least two kids where it accomplished precisely nothing, except constant battles). I consistently put her in the seat...I consistently put up the clip. I can't consistently pull over when she yanks it down.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thebee321* 
I wanted to make just one tiny little suggestion. Not trying to make you a carseat believer, LOL. But have you tried her in a different carseat? My understanding is that they are not all equally comfortable. There are some car seat forums that have great suggestions for very good seats at reasonable prices (i.e. doesn't always have to be a $300 Britax).

This is the best one we've had. The other two we've had for dd were worse. At least I can loosen and tighten the straps on this one without taking out the seat...and the straps don't twist themselves into a knot as soon as we do them up.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
no kidding.







:

Car seats save lives. It is a fact. If you research it, you will find the facts, they are there. Because your kid "doesnt like it" doesnt seem like a very good reason to not protect them when you could, would you let her play in traffic if she wanted to? I mean, there is only a chance she would get hit...and i played in traffic when i was little, and i survived..so it must be okay







:

If people want to put their children in car seats, that's fine. What I object to is the assessment of the intelligence, character, etc. of those of us who hate them with a passion.

Because of car seats:
* a massive amount of extra crap goes into the landfills every year.
* families on the edge...who don't even own a vehicle...have to blow money for something they may only use a couple of times a year.
* children do even more CIO than they would otherwise.
* some children (mine, for example) don't get to go out with mommy as much they otherwise would.

But, hey - I don't see why anybody would object to my views. Your shaming, bullying and resorting to legislation _worked_. My kids are always in their car seats. I feel like a crappy parent for it. I feel borderline abusive when I'm making dd's seat "secure" and she starts to scream. I don't believe that regular, incremental damage to a child's emotional well-being is always worth the trade-off against the small possibility that we may be in an accident on any given trip.

So, hate my views all you want...but you don't need to worry about it. The tactics _worked_. My kids are always in the seats...every time we go anywhere in the van. No need to shake your heads or post this guy:







:

I don't agree with legal requirements to use car seats. I think I'm treating my kids badly by using them. But, I still play along. It's all good...for you guys. Trust me...if you can get me to put my kids in those things, you're winning, whether you think so or not.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarolynnMarilynn* 
I made a promise to myself that I will offer that unsolicited advice - it may just save a life. I would say, "hey I noticed the straps are way loose. I used to do that too until someone pointed out that they wouldn't save the baby at *all* in a crash." Then if they were receptive I would mention how tight they should be and that it should be tight enough that if we turned the seat upside down the baby would be strapped in all safe. And the chest piece being at the right height. I see it down too low all the time. I haven't had anyone be rude to me yet.

Carolynn

I like this response...it doesn't seem condescending and I wouldn't at all be offended by it.

But how do you keep your kids from pushing the chest things down while you are driving?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Because of car seats:
* a massive amount of extra crap goes into the landfills every year.
* families on the edge...who don't even own a vehicle...have to blow money for something they may only use a couple of times a year.
* children do even more CIO than they would otherwise.
* some children (mine, for example) don't get to go out with mommy as much they otherwise would.


I think you have a right to your concerns, but having lost a child in our family to a car accident where proper restraints were not used, I can tell you that I will cheerfully dump a lot of carseats in landfill, and I really don't consider crying in a car where you can hear your mother's voice CIO... but there you go. Totally different perspectives.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Trust me...if you can get me to put my kids in those things, you're winning, whether you think so or not.

It's really not a question of whether or not you are winning or losing. Even though you don't see it that way, this could potentially be a matter of life or death.

I read your above post about how you live in an area where pulling over is not always an option. I know that if you wanted to make this something that you wanted to change, you have the information available to you and you could find a solution to this challenge to make it happen.

The truth of the matter is that you have given up on stopping DD from pushing the chest piece down and you don't want to change her behavior anymore. When DD fusses and cries after you tightened her car seat it makes you feel awful and you feel like others have imposed this restriction on you which you think is unnecessary because in the rare case that you were ever in a collision that the car seat might not even save her anyway. So why should you enforce this torture on your DD every day in order to account for the .5% chance (or whatever it is) that something bad might happen?

I understand your POV, I really do. And for both your sake and your DD's, I truly hope that you are never in that .5% situation so that you never have to look back on this and say "OMG, I should have done more."


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I've done both. I've ignored it with my best friend who's dd's straps were so loose and twisted she could just put her arm under the strap and around so that the strap wasn't even on her anymore. I didn't say anything that time. I should have. I still have guilt that I didn't.

Just about 2 months ago my SIL was leaving a family function with her 1 mo old and the chest clip was down by his belly. On her way out I just plainly told her "this clip needs to be up at armpit level" and then I moved it for them. The dad said "oh, we didn't know". That was all.

I guess the difference between the two was that I didn't want to offend my best friend and I could care less if I offened my SIL. But, that's not really what it's about, is it? It's about the safety of the child. I have decided that I will speak up, in a very nice way of course, if I see improper usage.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
It's really not a question of whether or not you are winning or losing. Even though you don't see it that way, this could potentially be a matter of life or death.

I put my daughter into something that I know she hates, and that I think is borderline abusive, because I'm required by law to do so. Someone's winning here, and it ain't me and it ain't dd.

Quote:

I read your above post about how you live in an area where pulling over is not always an option. I know that if you wanted to make this something that you wanted to change, you have the information available to you and you could find a solution to this challenge to make it happen.

The truth of the matter is that you have given up on stopping DD from pushing the chest piece down and you don't want to change her behavior anymore. When DD fusses and cries after you tightened her car seat it makes you feel awful and you feel like others have imposed this restriction on you which you think is unnecessary because in the rare case that you were ever in a collision that the car seat might not even save her anyway. So why should you enforce this torture on your DD every day in order to account for the .5% chance (or whatever it is) that something bad might happen?
I "feel like" other have imposed this restriction on me??? I can be fined if I don't use the damned thing. Others _have_ imposed this restriction on me, and they're proud of it. Let's not play games with words, and pretend I'm imagining the pressure when it's a freaking _law_.

The fact is, whether you believe it or not, that I've tried everything I can think of to get dd to stop messing with her clip. I'm probably not as safe on the road as I should be because I'm so stressed out about the freaking thing. Since I have to waste the money, torture dd and go through all the hassles of having a car seat, it makes me nuts that it won't even do anything if we do happen to be in an accident. However, unless you're suggesting that I stop dead in the middle of traffic and climb back to fix it, I'm not sure what it is you think I could find to do.

Quote:

I understand your POV, I really do. And for both your sake and your DD's, I truly hope that you are never in that .5% situation so that you never have to look back on this and say "OMG, I should have done more."
I won't be - because _I use the damned seats_. I also try to drive carefully, which is important and overlooked. As a passenger, I'd rather be unbelted in the car of someone who drives defensively than be in a seatbelt with someone who drives in an unsafe manner. I feel the same way about carseats - they're a source of tremendous frustration...and that is not conducive to safe driving.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

I just wanted to add a quick thank-you to everyone who said they would have said something...

As a result of your comments, I managed to get enough courage to speak to her today when I saw the exact same thing again. I casually mentioned "you know those straps are VERY loose, if you were ever in a collision that wouldn't keep him safe at all!". She was surprised and said "really, how tight should they be?" She said she asked her DH about it and said he didn't make them tight enough, I don't even think she knew how to tighten them because both of her kids seatbelts were loose, even the older kid. So I showed her the belt at the bottom that you pull to tighten it.

I even mentioned the pinch test (thanks again for that!). I really think she was appreciative and wanted the unsolicited information.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I "feel like" other have imposed this restriction on me??? I can be fined if I don't use the damned thing. Others _have_ imposed this restriction on me, and they're proud of it. Let's not play games with words, and pretend I'm imagining the pressure when it's a freaking _law_.


What I meant is that you feel as though it is an imposition. I don't feel as though it is an imposition. That's all that I meant by "feel like".

You're right. I don't know specifically your situation. Maybe you tried not driving and getting someone else to drive with you while you sit in the back with DD. Maybe you tried choosing your routes or destinations carefully or not driving anywhere long distance for a while until DD learnt the new rule. Maybe you tried going on mock car-trips to no-where (on routes that you know you can pull over at) just to give DD the experience so that you can start enforcing the new rule. Maybe you really have tried EVERYTHING and been consistent and done everything under the sun and it really hasn't made any difference. Only you know. And the truth is you are the only person that matters because you are the only one who has to live with whatever consequences there are.

I'm not trying to change your mind, really. I like to help people and I am only trying to help. I am a good problem solver and I like challenges and I like to share information. I have done that and I can see that you are not interested so I will say no more on the subject.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
You're right. I don't know specifically your situation. Maybe you tried not driving and getting someone else to drive with you while you sit in the back with DD.

There isn't anybody else to drive while I sit in the back. If I had someone else who could drive, there's no way I'd be behind the wheel at all.

Quote:

Maybe you tried choosing your routes or destinations carefully or not driving anywhere long distance for a while until DD learnt the new rule.
I don't drive anywhere "long distance". My longest trips are about a half an hour, except on family vacations...when there is someone else in the car. As for destinations...I can't really skip midwife appointments, and I won't skip ICAN.

Quote:

Maybe you tried going on mock car-trips to no-where (on routes that you know you can pull over at) just to give DD the experience so that you can start enforcing the new rule.
Ummm...no way in hell. I don't drive any more than I have to for the family. Getting her out on the road when I don't have to, in the name of trying to make her "get" a rule doesn't strike me as being safe. One thing is sure - car seat or no car seat, dd is much less likely to be injured in a collision if she's not in the car. Besides, dd picks up on the difference between a "mock" trip and a real one.

Quote:

Maybe you really have tried EVERYTHING and been consistent and done everything under the sun and it really hasn't made any difference. Only you know. And the truth is you are the only person that matters because you are the only one who has to live with whatever consequences there are.

I'm not trying to change your mind, really. I like to help people and I am only trying to help. I am a good problem solver and I like challenges and I like to share information. I have done that and I can see that you are not interested so I will say no more on the subject.
If you really want to solve my problem, tell me where to go to get rid of the freaking legislation, so I can get rid of those cages in my van.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If you really want to solve my problem, tell me where to go to get rid of the freaking legislation, so I can get rid of those cages in my van.

I'm sorry... I was thinking about my last post as I was just driving to my in-laws and I realized that in my attempts to be helpful and informative I came across as a snarky, condescending know-it-all. I should have responded to you with empathy instead. Of course you want your daughter to be safe and protected. You are angry that you have spent money on a product that she makes it impossible for you to use and therefore it is useless and money wasted. You are worried every time you get behind the wheel of a car that she isn't safe. You feel powerless to change the situation. Every time you get in the car you have to deal with an upset child screaming and crying because you have to put her into the seat that she loaths and that makes you feel like a loser on both ends -- you failed to keep her safe and you make her feel abondened and un-loved because of the car-seat torture.

Then to add insult to injury, you come to the boards which are supposed to be supportive and you get me telling you that you didn't do enough, that your daughter isn't safe, that you should try harder...

I'm sorry. I was out of line. I don't know it all (as much as I like to think that I do







. I'll try harder to remember that next time.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.

We were never in a carseat either. My younger sisters and I have the scars to show for it. We were in an accident when we were young. Nearly 200 stitches between the three of us.

Some kids really *don't* like carseats and it can be a nightmare trying to convince them how necessary they are.









I have some anxiety about it due to the accident. So it freaked me out when dd decided to play "The Great Escape" while going down the highway.

I am sure she could hear the terror in my voice while I was telling her to get back in her seat.









When dd was being difficult about her carseat, we would pretend the car wouldn't move unless she was buckeled all the way. We would be going 5 mph saying "Oh noo...the car won't move unless we are buckeled.....oh..we can't go to the store/fun place unless the buckles are right..oh no..the car won't move!"

My driveway is really long though..so we had a little space for lots of exclamations and whining about the car not moving properly unless dd was buckeled.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
I just wanted to add a quick thank-you to everyone who said they would have said something...

As a result of your comments, I managed to get enough courage to speak to her today when I saw the exact same thing again. I casually mentioned "you know those straps are VERY loose, if you were ever in a collision that wouldn't keep him safe at all!". She was surprised and said "really, how tight should they be?" She said she asked her DH about it and said he didn't make them tight enough, I don't even think she knew how to tighten them because both of her kids seatbelts were loose, even the older kid. So I showed her the belt at the bottom that you pull to tighten it.

I even mentioned the pinch test (thanks again for that!). I really think she was appreciative and wanted the unsolicited information.

That's awesome! So glad she was receptive.

You don't need tips anymore, but what I do when I see it is say "oh no, you forgot to tighten the straps!". This way, I am not implying that they don't know what they are doing, but rather that they know and just forgot. I use the same tactic with the chest clip and twisted straps, "oh no! the chest clip must have slipped out of place", "oh no! baby's straps seem to have gotten all twisted".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
We were never in a carseat either. My younger sisters and I have the scars to show for it. We were in an accident when we were young. Nearly 200 stitches between the three of us.

When dd is being difficult about her carseat, we pretend the car cannot move unless she is buckeled all the way. We will be going 5 mph saying "Oh noo...the car won't move unless we are buckeled.....oh..we can't go to the store/fun place unless the buckles are right..oh no..the car won't move!"

My driveway is really long though..so we have a little space for lots of exclamations and whining about the car not moving properly unless dd is buckeled.

I don't have a driveway - I have a parking spot in front of my townhouse, and if I tried that in the complex driveway, I'd have a lot of pissed off neighbours.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
"oh no! baby's straps seem to have gotten all twisted".

Just out of curiosity, what is one supposed to do about twisted straps? I took the straps off dd's seat and put them back on several times. They were fine. Every time I put her in it, I had to screw around with straightening the straps again...and on more than one occasion, I found them twisted when we got to our destination.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
Some kids really *don't* like carseats and it can be a nightmare trying to convince them how necessary they are.









DD has been in one for every car trip since she came home from the hospital...and she still hates it. She doesn't freak out as much as she used to, but she still hates it. I don't blame her.

The thing is...it's all about risk, right? If I'm never in an accident, then I've put her through all this crap for precisely _no_ reason. OTOH, they're definitely safer, because I'd take them to parks and such a lot more - meaning more time in the van - if I didn't have to contend with car seats.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Just out of curiosity, what is one supposed to do about twisted straps? I took the straps off dd's seat and put them back on several times. They were fine. Every time I put her in it, I had to screw around with straightening the straps again...and on more than one occasion, I found them twisted when we got to our destination.

Honestly, if you have one of those seats that have straps that twist even after you've fixed them a zillion times, the only solution I've found is to get a seat with different straps.







It seems that some seats are made with narrower straps that are "softer" material and they just twist no matter what you do. Sometimes you don't find this out until you've used the seat for awhile and the straps have broken in. I have found that the seats I've had with wider straps tend not to have this issue (or when they do twist, untwisting them will actually keep them that way for a good long time).

The problem is though, when you find one with good, non-twisting straps, it might not meet your other criteria (might not install nicely in your vehicle, might not be comfortable for your child, etc.). I am not sure how you decide which is the lesser of the evils. If a twisty strap seat is the only one that will install in one's vehicle and the only one that fits a person's child, then I think a person would have to accept the twisted straps! I make sure buy my seats only at places with a good return policy (Sears, Canadian Tire, Toys R Us, etc.) so that if it ends up not working out for any reason, I can return it and try a different one.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't have a driveway - I have a parking spot in front of my townhouse, and if I tried that in the complex driveway, I'd have a lot of pissed off neighbours.

Maybe pretend the car won't start at all?

I am sorry this has been so frustrating and difficult. Perhaps try sitting your dd down and having a good heart to heart chat about what can be done that might help her deal with being in a seat.

She is four, so I would think she is old enough to be proactive in working on a solution and understanding that "not screaming in the car" would result in more privileges and opportunities for fun.

My dd was still recently complaining about her carseat and she is six, so finally I had my sisters show her their scars (the worst of mine is in my hair and not easy to see) and the pictures of us with stitches when we were little. She was pretty receptive to us trying to explain to her and discuss what happened and why I worry about it so much.

She is irritated with me as I won't allow her to be in a booster. I have a lot of anxiety as we were in the accident when we were young and I was in a pretty bad accident a couple of years ago, which was completely not my fault. I was on the highway and the other driver fell asleep and ran into me.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The thing is...it's all about risk, right? If I'm never in an accident, then I've put her through all this crap for precisely _no_ reason.

My dad was talking to me about this the other night with regards to the tightness of DD's car seat straps. He honestly thinks I have them done up too tight (and he might be right). He doesn't want me to have them all loosey goosey, but he thinks she should have some breathing room. He's worried that I might actually be damaging her bones/muscles, etc. by keeping her in so tight. I argued with him that it's best to have her in as tight as possible so she doesn't get ejected. My dad argued that I may be creating long term damage to prevent a situation that may NEVER happen. But I kept saying "what if it did?". Ugh!

So, I am really glad this thread came about because I had actually meant to post a question on what the "one finger" (or "two finger") rule actually meant and how I was to implement it. I am now going to test use the fold test and perhaps loosen her straps to the point where I still can't make a horizontal fold, but that she can actually move. Right now, I have the poor kid so tight in, she probably has trouble breathing!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
She is four, so I would think she is old enough to be proactive in working on a solution and understanding that "not screaming in the car" would result in more privileges and opportunities for fun.

Old enough? Certainly. But, this kind of discussion gets nowhere with her. DD is...not easy to deal with at the best of times. She falls very much into the "spirited" category. Frankly, the entire car seat issue has just about trashed our relationship at times...one of many reasons why I hate the things. I've simply ended up not taking her and ds2 with me as much as I would have, otherwise. That's a hard one, too, because I'd take her in a heartbeat if I could just put her in a seatbelt. I can't imagine another 8-9 years of this car seat crap...

Even if I had accident scars, I don't think I'd go that route. I'm a member of ICAN, and have been traumatized by my c-sections. I don't think that equating my scars to all the bad things that might happen to someone would have a very good effect on her, what with her birth being one of the places I acquired one, yk? It's not like I could say, "oh - that's different - I don't mind that scar, because I have you"...she knows what ICAN's about.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
My dad argued that I may be creating long term damage to prevent a situation that may NEVER happen. But I kept saying "what if it did?". Ugh!

Yeah..."what if it did?". This is where I seem to think differently than most people. DS1 came within inches of being killed - and me with him - crossing a street. None of us have ever been in a significant car accident. So, maybe I should just stay home and never cross streets? We wouldn't be able to go to the park, but who cares about long-term damage (obesity, lack of fresh air, no chances to meet other kids, etc.) when something awful might happen?

Nobody suggests that we stop walking with our children, because they could get hit by a car...but it happens. It happens all the time. What makes the car seat the most important safety concern? What makes the car seat the one thing that 's worth making our children's lives hell every day? What makes the chance of a 2-vehicle (or more) accident _so_ much more significant than the risks we all face every day, no matter what we do? If I suggested strapping dd in to a seat so that she couldn't climb the counters and maybe fall, and couldn't reach the kitchen knives, people would think I was insane and abusive...but as long as I'm in a car, it's okay...not just okay, but legally required?


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

This it just silly - why would you stop someone and tell them something that is so obvious? People know the straps are too loose. They want them that way. Its a choice - a screaming child during the car ride or the chance their child hits the belts harder should there be a crash.

Maggie


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## LinzluvsGJ (Mar 16, 2004)

Not everyone does know they are too loose... some people are never shown how to properly install their child in a car seat or how tight even the car seat base should be, etc.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Frankly, the entire car seat issue has just about trashed our relationship at times...one of many reasons why I hate the things. I've simply ended up not taking her and ds2 with me as much as I would have, otherwise. .

dont you think she picks up on the way YOU feel about the car seat? kids are smart, she knows it bothers you, which probably bothers her even more. if you didnt make a big deal out of it, and just said, this is the way it is ....period...do you think she would put up such a fight? i cant imagine a car seat "trashing" a mother daughter relationship, unless you are making a big deal out of it also..even then, why? You feel bad, its the law, you do it anyway...that should be the end of it. If you are putting her through all this "torture" to use the seat, why not use it correctly, so it will at least do its job if something DID happen? you say its all about risk, nothing might happen anyway...but if something DID happen, she isnt in the seat properly anyway, so what is the point of even using it and putting her through all the abuse? just so you dont break a law and get a fine? i really am not understanding the logic behind this.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What makes the car seat the most important safety concern? What makes the car seat the one thing that 's worth making our children's lives hell every day? What makes the chance of a 2-vehicle (or more) accident _so_ much more significant than the risks we all face every day, no matter what we do? If I suggested strapping dd in to a seat so that she couldn't climb the counters and maybe fall, and couldn't reach the kitchen knives, people would think I was insane and abusive...but as long as I'm in a car, it's okay...not just okay, but legally required?

I think most people don't think of it as torture, any more than a seat belt is torture. Obviously your daughter has a particular issue with it and that makes it harder for you, and that is really hard.

I'm trying to understand what would be pleasant for your daughter in a car. What makes you think she would find a seatbelt more comfortable? Shoulder straps aren't that comfortable - no padding like in seatbelts.

My son's life in his car seat is really not hell, any more than having a locked front door so he doesn't wander outside on his own is hell. He sings, plays, and talks with us while in his car seat and he has a grand time. Of course if he were strapped in it all day or for hours he would hate it and it might well be inappropriate, but I don't think that is the case for you and I know it isn't for us.

I really have a hard time with you comparing being in a carseat to abuse. Obviously that is my reaction and I own it.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

What makes the car seat the most important safety concern? What makes the car seat the one thing that 's worth making our children's lives hell every day? What makes the chance of a 2-vehicle (or more) accident so much more significant than the risks we all face every day, no matter what we do? If I suggested strapping dd in to a seat so that she couldn't climb the counters and maybe fall, and couldn't reach the kitchen knives, people would think I was insane and abusive...but as long as I'm in a car, it's okay...not just okay, but legally required?
Actually, I agree with this sentiment. We did use carseats, but some of the rhetoric from hardliners strikes me as incredibly narrow. If they really look at all the things they do in a day which are far more likely to hurt a child than riding in a car improperly restrained, I don't think they could justify the degree of judgment cast on parents who don't use carseats or use them improperly.

Somehow carseats have become the litmus test of good parenting for many people. I don't get it. I really don't. A plastic bucket wouldn't be the end-all-be-all determining factor for me. But it is for many people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
dont you think she picks up on the way YOU feel about the car seat? kids are smart, she knows it bothers you, which probably bothers her even more. if you didnt make a big deal out of it, and just said, this is the way it is ....period...do you think she would put up such a fight?

That's exactly what I do...until she's been refusing to wear the harness/get in the seat for 20-30 minutes straight. She _hates_ it. This isn't about me. I've always hated them, and ds1 and ds2 put up with them quite readily. DD hates the seat.

Quote:

i cant imagine a car seat "trashing" a mother daughter relationship, unless you are making a big deal out of it also..even then, why? You feel bad, its the law, you do it anyway...that should be the end of it. If you are putting her through all this "torture" to use the seat, why not use it correctly, so it will at least do its job if something DID happen? you say its all about risk, nothing might happen anyway...but if something DID happen, she isnt in the seat properly anyway, so what is the point of even using it and putting her through all the abuse? just so you dont break a law and get a fine? i really am not understanding the logic behind this.
I do use it properly, to the extent that I can. That's why the stupid chest clip frustrates me so much. I hate putting her in there, and knowing it's not even doing any good, except to prevent me from being fined. However, I'm not supermom...I have no way to move the chest clip _while I'm driving_. This has been going on for almost two years. I've fixed it many times. I've stopped several times to fix it. She doesn't care if she's "allowed" - she doesn't like the clip. She can't loosen the straps, which she'd like to do, but she can move the clip down...so she does. Yes - I use the seat to avoid a fine, but since I'm going to the hassle and spending the money, anyway, it's more than a little frustrating to know that most of the time (she occasionally forgets about the clip or goes to sleep), the seat is basically useless if we did happen to have bad luck.

As to our relationship, dd and I have a lot of issues on a day-to-day basis. I find her very difficult to deal with on most issues. However, none of them cause me to overheat (literally) all the time...none of them cause me to worry about getting fined...none of them make me feel like an unreasonable ogre...none of them cause me to feel that I've wasted over $100 - which we can't freaking afford in the slightest. This is the only one.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think most people don't think of it as torture, any more than a seat belt is torture. Obviously your daughter has a particular issue with it and that makes it harder for you, and that is really hard.

I'm trying to understand what would be pleasant for your daughter in a car. What makes you think she would find a seatbelt more comfortable? Shoulder straps aren't that comfortable - no padding like in seatbelts.

I'd bet money that she hates the degree of restraint. It's not _just_ about the straps feeling too tight. It's about being restrained. She hates that. (Also, with respect to seat belts, I probably wouldn't wear one if they weren't also required by law...I think they're horrifically uncomfortable...not just the shoulder belt, but even the lap belt.)

Quote:

My son's life in his car seat is really not hell, any more than having a locked front door so he doesn't wander outside on his own is hell. He sings, plays, and talks with us while in his car seat and he has a grand time. Of course if he were strapped in it all day or for hours he would hate it and it might well be inappropriate, but I don't think that is the case for you and I know it isn't for us.
DD doesn't do those things in her car seat very much. She does talk sometimes, and once in a blue moon she'll sing. She certainly doesn't play...and she almost never smiles or laughs. I'm not kidding when I use the word "hate" about her feelings about her seat.

Quote:

I really have a hard time with you comparing being in a carseat to abuse. Obviously that is my reaction and I own it.
FWIW, I'm not actually comparing it to abuse. I feel abusive when I put her in it. It's an emotional reaction, and I'm aware that forcing her to do something she hates and causes her physical discomfort isn't actually abusive in and of itself...especially when the Powers That Be have decreed it to be positive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Actually, I agree with this sentiment. We did use carseats, but some of the rhetoric from hardliners strikes me as incredibly narrow. If they really look at all the things they do in a day which are far more likely to hurt a child than riding in a car improperly restrained, I don't think they could justify the degree of judgment cast on parents who don't use carseats or use them improperly.

Somehow carseats have become the litmus test of good parenting for many people. I don't get it. I really don't. A plastic bucket wouldn't be the end-all-be-all determining factor for me. But it is for many people.

I think that really is the thing that makes me nuts. I spend a lot of time with my kids. I read to them, sing to them, drag my butt outside to take them places, etc., etc., etc. They mostly eat well. I do my best, even with dd (we have a personality conflict, unfortunately...she's a lovely child, but we're on different planets in many respects). But, for many people, my feelings about these seats trump everything. It makes my head spin.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's exactly what I do...until she's been refusing to wear the harness/get in the seat for 20-30 minutes straight. She _hates_ it. This isn't about me. I've always hated them, and ds1 and ds2 put up with them quite readily. DD hates the seat.

I do use it properly, to the extent that I can. That's why the stupid chest clip frustrates me so much. I hate putting her in there, and knowing it's not even doing any good, except to prevent me from being fined. .

If she is 4 can't she go in a booster seat? Would she like that better? Some of the boosterseats even have high backs. I think most 4 year olds here aren't in harnessed seats anymore for the most part. I feel your pain though. My ds _hates_ his carseat too. We drive far less often because of this because it is just too stressful. I think if a child is strapped in, and they aren't too short for the seatbelt (which a booster would fix) then an actual carseat isn't that much safer really. (although maybe the law is different where you are, is that the problem?)


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Actually, I agree with this sentiment. We did use carseats, but some of the rhetoric from hardliners strikes me as incredibly narrow. If they really look at all the things they do in a day which are far more likely to hurt a child than riding in a car improperly restrained, I don't think they could justify the degree of judgment cast on parents who don't use carseats or use them improperly.

Somehow carseats have become the litmus test of good parenting for many people. I don't get it. I really don't. A plastic bucket wouldn't be the end-all-be-all determining factor for me. But it is for many people.

Well said, thank you. I had been reading this thread and wondering how to say this without bein charred to bits for being a neglectful, abusive mother, just for saying I can understand why some people hate car seats and even why some may not always use them.

If you haven't had a child who literally screams EVERY single time she/he is strapped in, you simply don't know what it's like. It is hell. My first did this and eventually stopped at over 3 YEARS old. My daughter is almost 3 and is still frantic in the car. Our last trip was worse than ever (and unavoidable) It does feel exactly like CIO when your child is screaming, gagging, choking, hitting herself, and you are frantically trying to find a safe place to pull over and rescue her. What is that like for the other child who has to sit next to her?? Hell. What do you think it's like to visit family who live 3 hours away but for us it's a 9 - 10 hour drive because we have a child who screams the entire time in between stops. That's beside the grocery store trips which are also unpleasant, though have stopped being hellish.
I have wondered many times over the past 6 years, what kind of damage my children have suffered because of this type of CIO-like crying. If CIO can cause such physical (not just psychological) damage, why not this? I know it has damaged my nerves and my sensory systems. As a new mom I can't even describe how it made me feel, I think i've blocked it out.

fwiw, we have tried it all, over the years and nothing has ever made a difference. Some children do not do well with confinement and I don't blame them. The best we can do is limit car rides which we do. We do have an older child though so car trips are many times unavoidable.

Do I agree with the line I often read here- a crying child is better than a dead one - OBVIOUSLY. Have my children been damaged by car seat use?- Yes I believe so. Do we use car seats? Yes .


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Actually, I agree with this sentiment. We did use carseats, but some of the rhetoric from hardliners strikes me as incredibly narrow. If they really look at all the things they do in a day which are far more likely to hurt a child than riding in a car improperly restrained, I don't think they could justify the degree of judgment cast on parents who don't use carseats or use them improperly.

Somehow carseats have become the litmus test of good parenting for many people. I don't get it. I really don't. A plastic bucket wouldn't be the end-all-be-all determining factor for me. But it is for many people.

I don't think car seats are a litmus test for good parenting, and some of the rhetoric around specific, very expensive car seats, bothers me.

However _personally_, I don't at all believe in the "well THIS is dangerous so THAT safety measure shouldn't be important" argument.

There are dangers that we can't protect our children from, there are always things we can't and don't do, yes. That is the reality. But how exactly does the presence of one danger mean that we shouldn't address another one? THAT I don't get. Are you saying that we all pick our battles? Well yes to a certain point - but society dictates other points, like leaving a 4 year old home alone is not legal, and riding around without a car seat is not legal.

My lay understanding of the big reason to use carseats is that a child's head is bigger, in comparison to their body, than mine, and their neck muscles not as developed - so in a crash they are much more likely to have damage to their spine due to whiplash. That sounds like physics to me, not rhetoric, and I see the carseat as addressing that difference, in the same way that I would support a newborn's neck.

For the kids who are so freaked out restrained - if I had an answer I would be a genius.









I just don't know, if the restraint is the issue, if car seats are really the problem - being in a seatbelt or even just being in the car might be hard. But to me that is an issue with the child and not the seat... the child's issue is with the seat but unless something is poking them I'm really not sure the seat itself is at fault. I wonder if there's a way to develop a car seat that would provide different sensory input, like straps where you could put on fleece or flannel or cotton covers, or a cushy interior, or something like that, that would help.

I really admire you parents who cope with that level of distress. And SB thanks for clarifying about the abuse part - I was tired last night and misread it.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LinzluvsGJ* 
Not everyone does know they are too loose... some people are never shown how to properly install their child in a car seat or how tight even the car seat base should be, etc.

So you are trying to tell me that an adult of average intelligence can not look at the straps and realize they are loose? Ridiculous. Of course they know. They don't tighten them on purpose. My friend does this. Its her choice. She knows they are loose, she understands what will happen if they are loose. It doesn't take much sense to understand that the straps are there to hold in the child. Hitting the straps on the seat harder is far better than the child having no straps and being thrown from the car seat.

Maggie


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

It is one thing to not realize the straps are loose, but to just not care about it, or because the baby doesn't like it?

Hearing your baby cry is not fun. I have had 3 children and I am very soft hearted. Better a crying baby, than a dead baby, though.

I also do not believe that my sons are emotionally scarred for life because they could not have their way about being in the car seat when they were small. They seem very happy and well-adjusted at ages 8 and 9. Maybe that is not how it is with other kids, but it is how things are around here.

My 2 yr old doesn't seem to mind the car seat. He just wants to "go".


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. *I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.*


I wish my 18 yr old, brain damaged niece had been strapped into one when she was 11 mos old, by her stupid babysitter. Then perhaps she would be able to function normally. as she wants to and not have the mentality of an 8 yr old with the hormones of an 18 yr old, AND maybe she would not have the physical pain she sometimes has. She gets very very upset over her limitations, although we do our best to accentuate what she CAN do.

You have not seen anything, until you see an 11 mo old baby, in a huge bed in an ICU, with tubes, wires and gawd knows what else strapped to her and inserted into her body. I don't wish that on anyone. Ever. To see her struggle to learn to suck, chew, and move again, during PT was heartbreaking.

I certainly am not going to tell you not to drive. Car seats, I fully admit, are a pain in the butt. However, they save more lives than not.


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## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

We just take the bus









More seriously, since we rarely use a carseat (only if we get a ride with a friend), we had little practice and didn`t read much about them. I realized only with my second child that the chest piece had to be so high and so tight.

And my husband still doesn`t tighten it enough unless I`m around. He truly doesn`t realize the safety issues...

And one last thing, when we have a ride and use the carseat and then use the carseat to carry our baby wherever we`re going, we ALWAYS loosen the belt BEFORE getting out of the car.

This might sound reassuring to some - not all loosened belts were that way in the car while it was moving!


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## SmallWorld (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
Hitting the straps on the seat harder is far better than the child having no straps and being thrown from the car seat.

Maggie

Actually Maggie, if the straps are loose the child/baby may be ejected from the child restraint. 3-Point Restraints especially need to be tight because the ejection risk may be higher.

It is VERY VERY important the straps are tight against the child.


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So you are trying to tell me that an adult of average intelligence can not look at the straps and realize they are loose? Ridiculous. Of course they know. They don't tighten them on purpose. My friend does this. Its her choice. She knows they are loose, she understands what will happen if they are loose. It doesn't take much sense to understand that the straps are there to hold in the child. Hitting the straps on the seat harder is far better than the child having no straps and being thrown from the car seat.

Maggie

Believe it or not, some people just don't know. I truly believe that the woman at DS's school didn't know and she was appreciative of the information that I gave her when I spoke to her yesterday. (Either that, or she is a DAMN good actor!) I have spoken to other new moms at LLL metings who also didn't know that the straps were too loose.

Some people really just don't think about those things! If no-one told me that my CAR should shake if I shake the car-seat, I would have never known how to test if it was properly installed in the car.

With all the preparations for child-birth, most people are so consumed with preparing for labour that everything else gets forgotten. Heck, I didn't even read anything about breastfeeding, nevermind reading the manual for my child's car-seat. And after the baby is born, who has time to read a car-seat manual when she is struggling with the issue of how to FEED her baby???

Believe me... some people truly don't know.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

If you bought a nice piece of pottery or a great bottle of wine, wouldn't you wrap it in some newspaper and wedge it between something so it's not rolling around all willy nilly?

It sounds like you really don't want any adivce on how to resolve the car seat issue, but instead want someone to come along and say "Meh, she's 4, she's old enough to ditch the carseat." Nearly every suggestion has been shot down pretty defensively.

Your argument about crossing the street is kinda ridiculous. Of course you can cross the street. But you follow the rules of the traffic that keep you safe, like holding your kid's hand, walking at the crosswalk, and walking on a green light. Certainly with all those precautions, there's still a risk, but by following the rules of pedestrian traffic, you've reduced the risk. Same with carseats. The risk is still there, but if you use the carseat properly, then you've reduced the risk.

My children can make some of their own choices. My daughter can wear a plaid shirt with striped pants; she can choose carrots instead of apples; my son can choose between going to the park or going to the library. But some things are not negotiable. Carseats are one of them. Same with wearing a helmet when my son rides his bike. There's no choice. Well, actually he does have a choice: he can wear the helmet and ride his bike or not ride his bike.

I want my children to be happy and healthy, just like you and just like most everyone else. But it's kind of unreasonable and unrealistic to think that they can experience childhood and life in general with no discomfort, with no having to do stuff that they just don't want to do.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
I considered the option that maybe she just loosened it for the moment while she was carrying the car-seat and that she would tighten it up again before driving off in the car (I HOPE that was the case!)...


If you were to see me going in to pick up my older children at preschool, this is *exactly* what you would see with my 6 month old if I carried her inside in her car seat.

Given that I do this myself, I'd be unlikely to say anything if this was *all* I saw of the situation.


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## CarolynnMarilynn (Jun 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
I like this response...it doesn't seem condescending and I wouldn't at all be offended by it.

But how do you keep your kids from pushing the chest things down while you are driving?


Thanks! We did the pulling-over and waiting until the car seat was being used properly. I would warn them ahead of time getting in to the car that it would those rules. I had some pretty willful kids about it but it didn't last too long. Now they like it nice and snug. Just part of our family's culture around car safety I guess.

Carolynn


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## Kivgaen (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
If you were to see me going in to pick up my older children at preschool, this is *exactly* what you would see with my 6 month old if I carried her inside in her car seat.

Given that I do this myself, I'd be unlikely to say anything if this was *all* I saw of the situation.

It wasn't until I saw what she did the next day before I actually said something. Same situation, baby in the car-seat with loose straps. She parked her car next to mine and she just plunked him in, went over to deal with the older child and didn't touch the straps.

I myself was tightening up my DD's straps when she was waiting for me to close the door so she could get into her car to drive off. THAT's when I said something, cause I knew she hadn't tightened them!


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kivgaen* 
It wasn't until I saw what she did the next day before I actually said something. Same situation, baby in the car-seat with loose straps. She parked her car next to mine and she just plunked him in, went over to deal with the older child and didn't touch the straps.

I myself was tightening up my DD's straps when she was waiting for me to close the door so she could get into her car to drive off. THAT's when I said something, cause I knew she hadn't tightened them!









I replied before reading. I always get annoyed with myself when I do that.









I'm glad you said something and even better is the fact that she was receptive to what you had to say.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Slamming my fingers repeatedly in the car door would hurt less than reading this thread.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

What are the child restraint laws in Canada?


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
What are the child restraint laws in Canada?

It varies by province. I believe Ontario is the only one to have a booster seat law. Most other provinces have laws for kids under 3 is it? Your provincial government web site should have the laws for your province.

ETA: Here's some info for

Ontario http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/saf...eat/choose.htm
Saskatchewan http://www.sgi.sk.ca/sgi_pub/roadsma..._article4.html
Alberta http://www.calgaryhealthregion.ca/he...PC/carseat.htm


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
If she is 4 can't she go in a booster seat? Would she like that better? Some of the boosterseats even have high backs. I think most 4 year olds here aren't in harnessed seats anymore for the most part. I feel your pain though. My ds _hates_ his carseat too. We drive far less often because of this because it is just too stressful. I think if a child is strapped in, and they aren't too short for the seatbelt (which a booster would fix) then an actual carseat isn't that much safer really. (although maybe the law is different where you are, is that the problem?)

Kids should stay in their harnessed seat until they reach the limits of their seat, rather than focusing on age. Every step up in a car seat is a step DOWN in safety. I.E. rear facing safest, then forward facing in harness, then booster seat. A regular seatbelt, even in a booster seat, can cause damage to a child's internal organs or spine if the child wasn't seated EXACTLY properly (and what child does sit properly all the time) or if the child's body isn't strong enough to withstand the impact. A 5-point harness which keeps them seated properly is much, much safer. Here are a couple of crash test videos comparing impacts in a 5-point harness and a booster:

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...cosipriori.mpg
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...xicosirodi.mpg

That being said, if a harnessed car seat is causing one's child mental and physical trauma, that is completely resolved by the proper use of a booster seat, then even I would consider the properly used booster seat at 4 years of age. A high back booster with side impact protection would be my choice if moving a child to a booster at that age.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So you are trying to tell me that an adult of average intelligence can not look at the straps and realize they are loose? Ridiculous. Of course they know. They don't tighten them on purpose.

DH isn't an adult of "average" intelligence. He's tremendously intelligent...maybe not the smartest person I've ever met, but probably in the top five, and definitely in the top ten. He doesn't know how tight the straps are supposed to be. He's more sold on the value of car seats in general than I am - much more. But, I'm the one tightening the straps.

I think for many people it doesn't feel right that safe should equal uncomfortable. I know I have trouble with it. I wouldn't feel safe strapped in like that - I'd feel trapped.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
What are the child restraint laws in Canada?

They're changing. I haven't looked lately. Last time I looked, dd could be moved to a booster, so if I was just looking for "permission" as LouCostello suggested, I've have moved her a long time ago, and never had this discussion at all.

I was trying to make the point that people can _hate_ carseats, not jump on the "let's make it a law that every child be in a booster seat until they're 12", object to legislation in general, and still not be horrible parents. If it makes people feel better to be judgmental on this issues, so be it. Considering the number of kids I've seen strapped in their seats, while their parent zips around traffic, doesn't signal, runs red lights, etc., etc., I don't count carseats for much.

LouCostello: My point about crossing the street is that I've seen so many people say "if someone you loved was in an accident, you'd..." and "if you'd seen what I've seen, you'd...." about putting kids in carseats.

a) I _do_ put my child in a carseat. Unless somebody can tell me how to put the chest clip back up from behind the wheel, then nobody has actually given me a solution to the problem. It's not safe, because dd moves the clip - trust me, I stuff her in there as horrifically tightly as I'm supposed to (and nobody could have made me keep that clip up, either - some people are very stubborn - I was, and dd is more so).

b) My _one_ experience with almost watching one of my children get killed was when he and I were crossing a street. We were crossing on the walk light - we waited for traffic - we looked both ways - and someone stopped at a red, then booted out into the intersection, turning left, when we were already crossing...and almost mowed ds1 down. So, telling me that if I'd seen all these accidents, I'd value carseats makes about as much sense as if I told you that if you'd been with us, you'd never cross a street again.

I'm not defensive about dd's hatred of her chest clip. I'm _frustrated_. I freely admit to having taken her out of her seat to nurse on one occasion several years ago. I freely admit to not using a seat on several occasions with ds1 (we didn't have one). I have no reason to be defensive about the damned clip, because I'd just as soon not have the seat at all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
A regular seatbelt, even in a booster seat, can cause damage to a child's internal organs or spine if the child wasn't seated EXACTLY properly (and what child does sit properly all the time) or if the child's body isn't strong enough to withstand the impact. A 5-point harness which keeps them seated properly is much, much safer.

"Keeps them seated properly"...maybe that's the whole key to why dd and I both hate these things. I'm constantly shifting my position when I sit, whether in the car or otherwise. DD is the same way. I can't imagine being forced to sit with my body in the same position for a half hour or more at a time. DD doesn't suffer from the severe muscle tension that I suffer from...but she suffers from a much greater inability to sit still, in general. She _needs_ to move, and her range is very limited by being forced to sit "properly" for extended periods.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So you are trying to tell me that an adult of average intelligence can not look at the straps and realize they are loose?

Uh...yeah. I mean, I'm pretty sure we're not born with the instinctive knowledge of how tightly to strap our kids into carseats, nor do I think it's reasonable to expect someone to just figure out that the straps should be tight enough to fit a finger or two under but not loose enough to pinch a fold in. Or where exactly the clip should go. Why on earth would I expect anyone to know that, regardless of their IQ, unless someone told them?







:


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:

So, telling me that if I'd seen all these accidents, I'd value carseats makes about as much sense as if I told you that if you'd been with us, you'd never cross a street again.
I respectfully disagree.

I "get" that you hate carseats. I don't like them myself. They are a pain in the butt to install sometimes. Kids don't like them.

It also hurts when you cannot let your child do what they want to do sometimes.

I am speaking from my heart when I told you about my family's experience. I would not wish it on anyone. Ever. It was and continues to be a form of hell.

Can you turn the clip around so it is harder for her to get at? Or is she big enough for a booster? I didn't see if anyone else asked you that, so forgive me if I am repeating.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I don't think car seats are a litmus test for good parenting, and some of the rhetoric around specific, very expensive car seats, bothers me.

However personally, I don't at all believe in the "well THIS is dangerous so THAT safety measure shouldn't be important" argument.

There are dangers that we can't protect our children from, there are always things we can't and don't do, yes. That is the reality. But how exactly does the presence of one danger mean that we shouldn't address another one? THAT I don't get. Are you saying that we all pick our battles? Well yes to a certain point - but society dictates other points, like leaving a 4 year old home alone is not legal, and riding around without a car seat is not legal.
I think the most honest answer I can give is this: after many, many years of reading threads online, I have consistently seen carseats cited as a source of ongoing, intense, serious distress and trauma for some families. Not just "my child doesn't like the carseat", but major, hysterical, screaming to the point of vomiting with some babies and children. That goes on for months. And years. And does. not. get. better. Also, to a lesser degree, the carseat issue is a major source of disharmony for many parents and children as a discipline issue--it's a very common reason for parents to feel they are going to "lose it" with a toddler who refuses to cooperate.

I have seen a host of comments over the years that begin "I saw a woman _holding her baby in the backseat of a car_ in the lane next to me, and I took down the license plate and called the cops immediately!!".

That attitude is one I cannot reconcile with all I have heard from ap families struggling with carseats over the years. I can get behind the importance of carseats, and the necessity of using them. But I can't make the leap to judging a parent instantly if I witness them not using one. I don't know the story. Perhaps the baby was screaming and vomited. Perhaps the baby was crying, and the mother was just overcome with emotion. Perhaps the baby has a medical condition. I just can't make the leap to saying the mother in that car is a terrible parent and needs to be handed over the to the police!

There is this forced assumption that if a parent isn't using a carseat they are reckless and selfish. _*Yet the most consistent "offenders" of the carseat rule that I've seen in real life, were attachment parenting families who reached the breaking point with a hysterical screaming baby because of their heightened sense of attachment!.*_It's like we want to say "Attachment, attachment, attachment..." to each other, unless we are in the car, and then it's "Okay, now get over it".

I think it is very easy to bulldoze past all of these attachment and emotional problems in the name of "safety first". Of course safety is of paramount importance! But it really disturbs me that we seem to force these threads away from an exploration of the underlying attachment and emotional issues. It just becomes "Oh my GOD how could you IMAGINE not using a carseat just because your baby is crying??". Like the very need for that kind of discussion is somehow intolerable?

Carseats do not foster attachment. They foster safety on the road. So yes, babies are safer. But babies are also spending far, far more time out of the arms of caregivers. I wouldn't expect some babies to handle this well, because it isn't normal or natural for an awake infant and toddler to be strapped in awake, immobilized, out of contact from a caregiver. That some children can't handle this very well seems not just understandable, but inevitable. People take babies from home to car to store without ever picking them up. And while again, it's easy to shove this aside and say "Not me, I never do that, I make sure my baby has a lot of time in arms"...I'm talking about society in general. And there are babies and children who do not handle carseats well even when the time is limited to use in the car.

Just to be clear: I am saying that it's very easy to trump this discussion by focusing only on safety. I think that is frustrating, because the underlying attachment and emotional issues are so real for many people. I am not suggesting anyone stop using carseats, and I am not condoning driving around without one. So, please don't imply that, because it won't be accurate. I am simply saying: Even for loving, ap families, this issue is not simple, and there are real attachment issues related to carseats that we should be willing to acknowledge.


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## Tani (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can do what about it? If I take the clip off and turn it around, _I_ won't be able to do it up...or undo it. I barely can now.

I find the general attitude about car seats to be kind of odd, too. So, c'est la vie. To each their own. I'm just happy that I didn't have to be strapped into one of those things as a child.

You seem to have a very serious case of yesbutitis.

If it's that much of a problem, you can 1. Stop driving, 2. Get a different seat, 3. Rig up something that will keep her from moving the chest plate.

My youngest daughter wouldn't be here today without being strapped into a car seat.

But whatever, it's your kid.


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## Tani (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
My kids are always in their car seats. I feel like a crappy parent for it. I feel borderline abusive when I'm making dd's seat "secure" and she starts to scream. I don't believe that regular, incremental damage to a child's emotional well-being is always worth the trade-off against the small possibility that we may be in an accident on any given trip.

I really have the strongest urge to take you by the shoulders and shake you, HARD.

I cannot even begin to imagine how you would think that losing your child -- even though it's a "small" risk -- is somehow less traumatic than periodically pissing them off by putting them in a car seat.

I certainly hope you never find out whether that's true or not.

It isn't, by the way. Risking a child's life is NOT worth it.

At least you do use a seat, which is better than way too many other parents out there.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 

I have seen a host of comments over the years that begin "I saw a woman _holding her baby in the backseat of a car_ in the lane next to me, and I took down the license plate and called the cops immediately!!".

That attitude is one I cannot reconcile with all I have heard from ap families struggling with carseats over the years. I can get behind the importance of carseats, and the necessity of using them. But I can't make the leap to judging a parent instantly if I witness them not using one. I don't know the story. Perhaps the baby was screaming and vomited. Perhaps the baby was crying, and the mother was just overcome with emotion. Perhaps the baby has a medical condition. I just can't make the leap to saying the mother in that car is a terrible parent and needs to be handed over the to the police!


Some things are just so rarely acceptable that calling the police when you see a baby unrestrained is *absolutely* a reasonable thing to do. Is it *possible* that the reason said baby is unrestrained is unavoidable, that the parents had no choice, it was an emergency, etc etc etc?

Sure it is.

But if I see a baby not in a car seat on the road, I'm going to err on the side of safety and let the police determine if indeed there was just cause for breaking the law and putting that baby in danger.

Is the parent terrible for not using a car seat? I have no idea, and I'm not taking any chances. If there truly are extenuating circumstances, I figure the police can make that determination.

There have been two times I didn't use a car seat. If someone had called the police and they had attempted to stop me, they would have had to follow me straight to the ER doors. First time it happened, one of my DD was 3 years old with a temp of 106.8. When I say I threw her in the car and tore out of the driveway headed to the ER, that is an understatement. The hospital at the time was 7/10ths of a mile on the military post where we lived. Had it been several miles away through traffic, I'd have likely stopped to buckle her in. I made a judgment call that day, one that I pray I never have to make again because I've never been that afraid in my life.

The second was also a trip to the ER, that time with my then 2 year old son who awoke at 3am screaming at the top of his lungs and unable to move his head at all. Again, I literally flung us in the vehicle and prayed the whole way down the hill to the ER.

Otherwise, four kids and almost 6 years of parenting in all, and we've never taken a child out of their car seat while the vehicle was moving. Ever. Their life is more important than them not crying. Or at least my children's lives are worth more than them not crying.

I'd rather have a hystercial, screaming, inconsolable baby than a dead one any day. I really don't get why that is so hard to understand.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

If you really want to solve my problem, tell me where to go to get rid of the freaking legislation, so I can get rid of those cages in my van.

It sounds as if your DD is technically old enough by law to go in a booster seat. Those are MUCH MUCH MUCH less restrictive on their movement. It sounds as if you are *choosing* to continue with the use of a 5pt harness when there _is no legislation that requires you to do so_.

Problem solved.

Unless of course you are hoping for legislation that allows your children to ride around completely unrestrained with no seat belt at all. If that's the case, you are unlikely to find support for that wish.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

Quote:

I'd rather have a hystercial, screaming, inconsolable baby than a dead one any day. I really don't get why that is so hard to understand.








:

I've had both. I wouldn't wish a dead baby on anyone, no matter how, well, there's really no way to say it without violating the UA, they may be.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat! Believe it or not it's true.

btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.

nak


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Okay - here's a potential solution to the chest clip issue - could you buy one or two more clips and put them both on, then your DC couldn't slide the clip down as far.
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...entPage=family









I don't know if that would help.

That sounds like no fun. Hopefully the switch to a booster seat will solve your carseat issues.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

Quote:

We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat!
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat! Believe it or not it's true.

*btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.*

nak


You can think me dismissive if you want to. But, there is no way I would allow my child to be out of the car seat, generally. The choking incident would be an exception *only* if there was NOWHERE else to pull over.

If you want to carry a 3 yr old for two miles, please be my guest. In our house, the carseat/car/seatbelt is non-negotiable. Mama ain't walking two miles in this Florida heat.

I only hope that it wasn't too unpleasant outside.

I feel some are being dismissive of what some of us have been through. I don't tell people that the carseat should be a non-negotiable thing for the hell of it. I do not want you or anyone else on this board or anywhere else to EVER go through what my family did and continues to go through to this day. It makes me relive our experience every time I see a parent with a small baby or child in their lap.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Who here is saying it's negotiable? Unfortunately, it isn't.

What is being said is that sweeping generalizations and nasty judgmental behaviors aren't useful in the quest to promote car seat safety.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't understand the implication that an unlikely, but terrible outcome, is being actively _chosen_ when you see someone make a choice that for a minority of individuals leads to the worst happening. If I used that approach, I could justify intolerance towards almost any conversation.

And again, I am not saying we shouldn't use carseats. I used them. They are the law. I would not be willing to drive around with a child loose in the car. When ds was a baby we had a serious car accident. I don't know if the carseat saved him, but I am certainly glad he was strapped into one. But the issue is, simply, more complicated than pointing to extremes and ignoring everything in between.

There are a small percentage of babies who die in carseats for non crash reasons. Babies die of SIDS while riding in carseats. Preemies, and babies with special needs, can suffer respiratory distress from the "hunched" position. They make flat "car beds" but those don't address the underlying issue that there may be risks with letting a new baby spend extended periods of time isolated while sleeping.

I will never forget hearing of another "heart baby", who died from literally crying to death while riding in his carseat. The stress of the ride and being strapped in led to a bout of prolonged crying, which sent him into cardiac distress...and he died. Right there in the carseat.

Life is strange and sometimes senseless and it doesn't help to go around assigning such profoundly negative intent to the choices others are making. Nobody is choosing to harm their child with the carseat issue--it's unfair to imply that _anyone_ would rather lose their child than hear them cry.

It's very awkward typing this reply, because some of the very personal stories of loss shared in this thread are deeply painful, and I think everyone wants to be respectful, while clarifying that some of the implications here are simply not true.
I completely understand why some feel strongly about this issue--but it just doesn't help to take posts to the level of assigning negative intent and refusing to hear the other person.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Who here is saying it's negotiable? Unfortunately, it isn't.

What is being said is that sweeping generalizations and nasty judgmental behaviors aren't useful in the quest to promote car seat safety.


Who is being nasty?

Obviously, if a person is willing to walk two miles, carrying a 3 yr old, because he/she refuses to get into the car, then yes, it is negotiable. The child gets to decide whether she and Mama get to ride home or walk two miles.

I cannot imagine having a child who is that traumatized by a car seat. I hope you can find help for her or she outgrows it. I am not being snarky. I am quite serious.

If this works for you, well...more power to you. I am not going to do it. Considering where I live there are not a lot of safe places to walk and the heat is horrible. I am not doing it.

You are not the only who feels judged, believe me.

I am finished with this thread. I cannot continue to be told I am nasty or making sweeping judgements, only because I don't wish ANOTHER child to be brain damaged.

Good luck to you and everyone else on this thread. I hope that you all come to a decision about child safety that you can live with and I wish only good things for your children.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Who is being nasty?

Obviously, if a person is willing to walk two miles, carrying a 3 yr old, because he/she refuses to get into the car, then yes, it is negotiable. The child gets to decide whether she and Mama get to ride home or walk two miles.

I cannot imagine having a child who is that traumatized by a car seat. I hope you can find help for her or she outgrows it. I am not being snarky. I am quite serious.

If this works for you, well...more power to you. I am not going to do it. Considering where I live there are not a lot of safe places to walk and the heat is horrible. I am not doing it.

You are not the only who feels judged, believe me.

I am finished with this thread. I cannot continue to be told I am nasty or making sweeping judgements, only because I don't wish ANOTHER child to be brain damaged.

Good luck to you and everyone else on this thread. I hope that you all come to a decision about child safety that you can live with and I wish only good things for your children.

I wasn't pointing to you but feel free to bow out/ I feel the same. I do find on MDC a lot of generalizing and harshness when it comes to car seat issues. Whether it be bringing a car seat on a plane, using certain brands of car seats, riding rear facing v ffacing past 1 or 2 or 3. It seems to be a polarizing issue here, of all places. Can't quite figure it out. I do see a lot of dismissive posting on this thread









As we have all agreed, car seats are required by law, and safer than riding unrestrained. Nobody is debating that (I don't think) but I for one have questioned the damage my children have suffered from distress due to car seat confinement. It is real. Does it compare to brain damage or death? As I have said so many times before, of course not. Is it painful for my children and myself? Yes. Is there real suffering? Yes. That is what some can't or won't understand.

As has been pointed out upthread, before coming here for a 300 post thread about calling the cops on the lady in the next car with a baby out of the seat, stop and think. There actually could be a legitimate reason. It is NOT black and white.

On walking the 2 miles. It wasn't about whether it is negotiable to ride in a car seat. Riding in the car without a car seat is non negotiable in our family. IF I can avoid the suffering my child endures while riding in the car, I will. Clearly today I was willing and able to hike long distance. She has been the same since birth - she is not a manipulator. She is traumatized by the confinement. I recently tried a nausea remedy which hasn't worked but I have wondered if that was part of the problem for her as well. I may never know but I will continue, as her mother, to have compassion for her and do my best to protect her. Physically and emotionally.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and *begins to choke on her own vomit*. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have *kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat*! Believe it or not it's true.

btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.

nak

There is a difference between a baby choking on their own vomit (which would be immediately life threatening and must be dealt with right there, on the spot, in order to save the child's LIFE) and a child who is 'traumatized' by the car seat. If you do not or cannot see the difference in the two, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Would I take my child out if they were choking on their own vomit? You betcha. The two instances where a child of mine has ridden without a car seat were what I believed at the time to be potentially life threatening situations. Getting them to the hospital (on post, 3/4 of a mile down the hill) was more important in those moments than strapping them in.

If you personally believe your child is in imminent danger of death due to being traumatized in their car seat and there is nowhere to pull over, by all means, take them out of their car seat and do what you must. I am sure there are exceptions, like the baby with a cardiac condition where prolonged crying while strapped in a car seat truly IS life threatening.

I would never dream of suggesting that a parent put their child at IMMEDIATE RISK of death by leaving them in their car seat if taking them out and/or not strapping them in would literally save their life.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Car seats seem to be the current en vogue issue where it's OK to be as intolerant, judgmental, nasty or black and white as you want to be.

There are gray areas to almost any issue... but I think it makes people feel better to not recognize them and to think that the world can fit into a smaller, more defined definition.

I spent $280 on a 5-point harness for my 3yo. That's what safety was worth to me. However, if I had had a baby who was screaming bloody murder EVERY SINGLE TIME we went anywhere (and we did go through a thankfully brief period with this) I would be willing to make some concessions to keep him from that anguish. Certainly including walking 2 miles and probably other things as well. It's hard to tell without actually being in the situation.

Does that make me a bad mama? No. I'm a good mom. It doesn't make other people bad mamas either. It's just all part of life, and weight risks, factors, benefits, etc.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Sweeties1Angel* 
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.


but its not either/or. It's traumitized or take a calculated risk.

I mean, there is a guarantee that a child would be traumatized and there is only a chance that she may die. Dop you see the difference.

And I applaud StormBride's posts. Its how I;ve felt but never been able to eloquently post before.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tani* 
I really have the strongest urge to take you by the shoulders and shake you, HARD.

I cannot even begin to imagine how you would think that losing your child -- even though it's a "small" risk -- is somehow less traumatic than periodically pissing them off by putting them in a car seat.

I certainly hope you never find out whether that's true or not.

It isn't, by the way. Risking a child's life is NOT worth it.

At least you do use a seat, which is better than way too many other parents out there.

Do you drive? Ever? Anywhere? If so, don't tell me about "risking a child's life not being worth it". Every single one of us who puts our child in an automobile _ever_ is risking that child's life, whether or not they're strapped tightly into a carseat or not. I'm comfortable with a higher level of risk with respect to the carseat aspect of it than many moms are. I'm also comfortable with a much _lower_ level of risk with respect to how much I drive with dd.

And, I can't imagine what planet you're living on that you think I'd find losing my child to be less traumatic than putting her in a carseat. It's not a matter of whether losing her would be worse...that falls strongly into the "well, duh" category. I'm well aware that if I have her out of her seat or she has the clip down and I'm in an accident, it will haunt me for the rest of my life. I'm also aware that listening to her scream and cry and beg not to be put in the seat for two years will haunt me for life. Since I never was in accident, the bottom line is...I did that to her for _nothing_. If I'd been in an accident, the seat would have _probably_ made a positive difference...but since I wasn't, it made only a negative difference.

Basically, by putting her in a car seat, I'm saying that I think all her trauma over it is worth it, even if we're never in an accident at all. I don't think so. By abiding by the law, I'm pretty much saying the best outcome for dd is an accident...because then her suffering actually serves a purpose.

Go ahead and "shake me hard". Every time I take dd out, I do something to her that I think is bad for her, that feels abusive to me, that damages our relationship...and I do it because the "experts" have decided it's best. I don't agree - and it's not about stats re: kids who are in accidents. It's about personal risk assessment.

Funny...if I were tormenting my child by making her cry herself to sleep every night, because someone told me it as for the best, you'd all jump all over me...but hen I torment her with the car seat, somehow all bets are off.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Sweeties1Angel* 
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.

Doubt it all you want. DD has gone _hell_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
There is a difference between a baby choking on their own vomit (which would be immediately life threatening and must be dealt with right there, on the spot, in order to save the child's LIFE) and a child who is 'traumatized' by the car seat. If you do not or cannot see the difference in the two, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Why is the word "traumatized" in quotes? If your kids don't go through hell in them, that's great for you and your kids. DS1 and ds2 don't mind them, either. DD has gone through absolute hell, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
but its not either/or. It's traumitized or take a calculated risk.

I mean, there is a guarantee that a child would be traumatized and there is only a chance that she may die. Dop you see the difference.

Thank you. I haven't been able to phrase it quite this succinctly.


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## Tani (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
I feel some are being dismissive of what some of us have been through. I don't tell people that the carseat should be a non-negotiable thing for the hell of it. I do not want you or anyone else on this board or anywhere else to EVER go through what my family did and continues to go through to this day.

Yes. That.

But for those of you who feel that your child's LIFE is worth less than their dislike of the car seat, I have nothing but contempt. And some pity, for your blindness and ignorance.

I can't discuss this rationally.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tani* 

But for those of you who feel that your child's LIFE is worth less than their dislike of the car seat, I have nothing but contempt.

But there is no guarantee that if you don't put your child in a car seat, she will die. It is not a perfect cause and effect. There is a risk, if you are in an accident, and your child is not in a car seat, she may die. But there is a guarantee that if you are NOT in an accident, and your child hates the carseat, they are forced to CIO. I feel the choice has been for me, in the past, ABSOLUTE emotional harm vs. POSSIBLE physical harm.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

The use of the word 'traumatized' in reference to being in a carseat makes me want to do things I can't print here.

I can only hope you'll never have reason to know the true definition of traumatized.

I'll give you a hint. A kid mad about being in a carseat is NOT it. Get over it.


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## XmasEve (Jun 18, 2002)

I want to thank this thread. I really, really do. It has opened my eyes.

You know, I don't vax my kids. I am an intelligent, loving mother who carefully researched both sides before making that decision for my own kids. And you know what? I get really sick and tired of govenments legislating that I HAVE to vax my kids. It's not fair or right, IMO. Thankfully I can get exemptions.

I also carefully researched child restraints before putting my children in them. After doing the research, I decided that using child restraints was the best option for my family. And I am blessed that, most days, my kids agree with me.

But, yeah, I can see how some people would disagree and get pissed off about laws forcing them to abuse and traumatize their kids. Do you think there's any hope of legal exemptions to car seat laws in the future? You know, all you have to do is sign the paperwork showing that you know all about the risks and this is the decision you've chosen to make for your child? That would solve the issue of people using car seats incorrectly because they don't know proper usage. Every doctor, nurse, midwife, pediatrician, etc. will give new parents a car seat primer, and at the end of the lesson, the parents will have the option of signing a child seat waiver. They'd just have to carrry a copy in their car and they'd be good to go!

Seriously, it could work. I'm not going to start lobbying, since I've chosen to use child restraints, but this is an idea that could take off in North America... at the very least make the news channel...


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Well, this thread has, predictably, gone further and further downhill and perfectly illustrates why people at mdc are afraid to post anything the slightest bit negative, about car seats.
At this point it will hopefully be deleted.








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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
The use of the word 'traumatized' in reference to being in a carseat makes me want to do things I can't print here.

I can only hope you'll never have reason to know the true definition of traumatized.

I'll give you a hint. A kid mad about being in a carseat is NOT it. Get over it.

You don't think a child could be traumatized by being in a car seat, the same way that a child who's afraid of water could be traumatized by being forced to be in the water? I'm sure it does not compare to the loss of a child. But the fact is that the risk someone is taking by having their child out of the car seat in certain circumstances, for a few minutes, if they are very safe otherwise about the car is really not taking on a whole lot of risk. The big risk is in driving at all.


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## midwestmeg (Jul 10, 2005)

Goodness!

All I wanted to say when I noticed this thread was that I didn't understand exactly how tight infants needed to be in their seats when I had my first.... and I think I'm glad no one ever made me feel small by telling me exactly what I needed to do. That said, over the last two years I've learned a lot more, upgraded my car seats and now I DO know why and how it should be done.









So when I see a new mom with her baby I might, in circumstances where I feel it's okay, let her know how pretty her baby is and say 'oh look, you really want to just tighten baby in a little more, and make sure that this clip is up here so baby will stay restrained in a crash.' That's it.









I have very crunchy friends who do their carseats very incorrectly, but get a little preachy about the non-vaxing, natural foods/living stuff- and I've determined that I don't really like being preached at. So I don't do it to them!! Sorta does drive me nuts, though. If a person is passionately protecting their children from other 'dangers,' wouldn't you figure out how to use a car seat correctly?!!









But I believe in the golden rule and I also think we should get to make our own choices when it comes to parenting. One persons danger is another persons comfort- like co-sleeping.... some see it as a danger, others find it comfortable. Or perhaps like when my daughter slept in her car seat (she LOVED sleeping in the car as a baby) and other family members found what I was doing dangerous. Btw, she was in the driveway on a mild day.

I also appreciate the responses in this thread that were kind, and I appreciate the MDC mamas who were willing to stick their neck out and say that they don't like carseats. There are always two sides to a story.

AND- I didn't know that about the chest clips and the pre-crash positioning!! What a great piece of information- thank you!







My dd has discovered that she can pull her chest clip down with the little supports on her Marathon. It's annoying because she is one of those stubborn kids; and I'm not willing to do a lot of scare tactic tricks with her. Although I did threaten to leave her by the side of the road...







: And I have left her at home for not wearing her carseat properly.

In peace, Megan


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Midwestmeg--thanks for such a balanced and thoughful post


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

nak

I have on many occasions taken my ds out his carseat.. It was worse when he was in the infant one, rear-facing. He _was_ totally traumatized every time he went in it.
So most times I sat in the back and took him out to nurse. We only really drive in slow moving city traffic, and I made a judgement call. To me, having my tiny newborn screaming so much he was sick was far more dangerous than him being out the carseat for 5 minutes at a time. I could not physically have left him there. I just couldn't. (plus dh could not drive with the crying).

He is slightly better now, but not much. He cries and thrashes about and gets himself so hysterical he can't breathe. So yes, I still take him out - just enough to calm him down and then put him back in. We tend not to drive anywhere now though if we can help it. He likes the bus and train thankfully!


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

this thread has been closed for going so off topic. Please start another thread to discuss the issue of carseats vs. no carseats.


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