# How Our Niece Parents: And The Effects Of Poverty, Neglect, etc.



## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

OK, this is complicated so all you that stay with me on this post - bless you









Dh and I come from abusive childhoods and because of that we have had very little contact with our families over the years - some individuals more than others. DH's oldest brother has a few children, of which he has never taken care of. His brother's first wife lives by a Marine base and when dh was stationed there he really got to know his niece and her mom. His niece was a little girl, but she loved him to death and he has been the only person on her dad's side of the family to stay in contact with her. DH has stayed in contact with her over the years and she is now 25. When she was 12 she came and spent a month with us over the summer. It was obvious at this time that she seemed depressed. When we went to pick her up it was obvious that they didn't live a very healthy life (in every sense of the word).

Anyway, his niece has never lived on her own. She has always lived with her mother. His niece has 2 children - 3 & 5. A few months back she called dh and asked if she could come stay with us until she gets her own place. She had talked for the last couple years about getting out of her mom's house. DH said yes with great excitement and I said yes with excitement and caution.

DH talked to her before she came about us not approving of spanking and she gave the impression that she also was against it, although it caused me some concern when she said that she, herself, had only been spanked twice and she deserved it both times









OK, so she has now been here for a month and it has been more than challenging. The first week I thought it was possible that dd and I could end up in the crazy house. DH is at work most of the time so I get to be here all day every day.

My niece yells at her children like you wouldn't believe. She is obviously depressed and even admits to it and I guess she has tried anti-depressants before and she got sick from them and so she gave up on them. IMHO she needs therapy, but anyway...

Her children are lovely if you ask me, but to her they do nothing but drive her nuts at every turn. They're not quiet enough, still enough, or anything else. I'm pretty sure that their breathing annoys her.

I am finding out more and more about how she and the kids have been living and how she, herself, grew up. Her mentality is so far from our own that it is taking some time to really get my head wrapped around it. DH grew up like this, but he went to great lengths to change his life and his experiences, etc.

The things that my niece values tell a lot. She buys the cheapest food you can find and she treats it like gold. We are used to buying organic and eating freely. I buy food at the dollar store because dd likes to "cook" and I don't want her using huge amounts of super expensive organic food if the concotion is not meant for human consumption








My niece buys food at the dollar store to eat. She feels that organic food is a waste of money, etc. She brags about some of her very modest belongings and I try to be excited for her. I bought the kids shoes when they first came because the 3 yr old had no shoes and was wearing his sisters flip flops that were 4 inches too big in the back. The 5 yr old girl had that pair of rubber, worn out flip flops, and a beat up pair of super smelly tennis shoes. The examples like this could go on and on.

She started her new job 10 days ago, which has been a blessing to me. I love having the kids here and it's nice to be on my own with them for half of the day. She has always worked minimum wage jobs and doesn't really show any desire to do more than that. I think her only goals in life are to have enough money to pay the bills and buy clothes for the kids. They all have the bare minimum of everything and are very excited about everything they get.

I have taken her to the movies a couple times and we've also gone to the store without the kids on more than a few occasions. She couldn't believe it when I told her that the kids didn't have to come. Apparently the last movie she was at was 6 months before and she took the kids with her. (She takes them to PG-13 and R rated movies with her)
She can't trust her mom to watch her kids because she will go to bed and leave them to take care of themselves. She's used to getting subsidised child care from the state.
When the kids would get done with day care or pre-school they would be babysat by her younger brother who is now 15 and is in a gang
















I found out about this a couple weeks after she was here. This is one of the reasons she wanted to leave their small southern town and move here. There was talk of a drive by or of people coming to look for her brother right before she left to come here. This is a serious nation wide gang and not your small town variety.

I feel like I am rambling here, but the whole issue is so complex and I feel like I am just scratching the surface here.

Anyway, we are talking about poverty, poor/little education, etc., etc.

Most of dh's other nieces are living quite hard lives similar to this niece, in most ways. He has a couple nieces and nephews who are having a better upbringing, but the majority are in the same boat.
We distanced ourselves from these situations in the past - we were young, hadn't started our own family and were trying to figure out who we were, even though we knew we didn't want to follow in our parents foot steps.

DD is dealing with this better than I would have ever thought. DD has several disabilities - physical and other. She speaks up to my niece and tells her that she is mean to her kids and that she should treat them better, etc., etc.









To be fair, dh has mentioned things to his niece on more than one occasion and she has expressed to both of us that she is trying to do better with the yelling, etc., even though she jokes about it when she says it. She does the best when dh is home, but she does the worst when she goes down to the basement and is alone with them (that's where they are staying). DH and I step in whenever possible to resolve things and although she has commented that we baby them she hasn't said much else about us stepping in. The kids whine and cry a whole lot. When we intervene the kids stop crying immediately and things go much smoother. We never contradict her and the kids don't get their own way - we just pick them up or hug them and talk to them and show we care that they are upset.

This whole situation is very scary to me. I fear for these children, but the last thing I want to do is distance myself from them like we have done with other family members. I feel like we could have had some sort of impact on these other nieces and nephews lives, but we couldn't deal with it at the time. The one thing that is different here (besides that we're older and smarter) is that we do get along with our niece. She treats her kids like crap, but she gets along with us great and does care, especially, about what dh thinks and how we feel about how kids should be treated, etc.

I think the goal is for them to get their own place, although I question how this will happen IRL given her minimum wage jobs and the cost of living being higher here. DH and I have always wanted more kids and still have not ruled out adopting a child out of foster care - in a way this fills part of that void for us. Also, I worry about the kids not being able to be with us as much. I think dh made it clear to her that she would be welcome to live here if she chose to. She is not very outgoing so you don't always know what is going on in her head, so who knows.

I guess I just don't know what to think about all of this and if we are doing the right thing so far. I think it would kill both dh and I to walk away, or slowly drift away from these kids, and dh cares deeply about his niece and I think he's really sad about how "she's turned out". I think he has great empathy for her though since he grew up in the exact same situation and he knows that he could have been just like that if he hadn't enlisted into the Marines and left the small town where he lived.

When I sat and talked and read books with the 5 yr old girl tonight (after her mom and brother were in bed) I just realized more and more how much these kids have missed out on. They don't own any books and although we went to the library their mom refuses to read to them because all the books are too long she says. They don't eat vegetables, unless you count corn. They ask me questions about what certain foods are and although I don't expect them to know what hummus is or pesto, I do expect that a 5 yr old would have seen celery before or would have tried a raw carrot. My niece was surprised to know that her son (3) would not eat the peeling on an apple. The only fruit I've seen her give to them are flourescent apple sauce (literally. that is not a joke), and fruit cocktail type cups in heavy syrup. They don't drink water, and they rarely drink juice. Kool-Aid is the main staple and soda comes next (although I do not have soda in the house).
There are so many questions the kids have about life and nature and everything else. I want to be there for them. When they ask their mom she says she doesn't know or to leave her alone. Also, they have lived in a small town, in poverty, and their experiences have been very few. They get very little exercise as she doesn't want to take them outside. Since they've been here we have been at the lake, at the park, or something else, almost every day. The kids love it! We make their meals as she rarely cooks and when she does dinner usually consists of something you can microwave and it may not be until late at night.

Taking care of these kids is no burden to us at all - seriously. The bigger issue is just about their mother and our responsibilities to our own dd and to ourselves.

OK, anyone who actually read this whole post has a right to give me any feedback they want








What do you all make of this whole situation???


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Wow, what a situation.

First of all, congratulations to you and your DH for making more of your lives than you got from your families. Breaking the cycle is so very commendable.

And congratulations for hanging in their with the niece and more importantly her kids. Most people wouldn't have opened their homes and hearts like you have.

A few random ideas off the top of my head:
--can the niece get public assistance, subsidized housing, food stamps, WIC, or any other kind of aid? does she get child support from the kids' dad?
--does the niece attend a church? many have "hand up" programs and/or can provide some employment
--can the kids get into a Head Start program? the ones I know anything about provide healthy meals, reading, physical activity, etc.
--does the niece have literacy problems herself? I've heard that oftentimes a parent doesn't read to a child because the parent CAN'T read even a toddler level book
--does your local community college have parenting classes? job training?
--are there any support groups she could go to? sometimes people are more receptive to information if it isn't coming from family

I'm sure you've thought of all this. I just can't imagine where I would begin if faced with this situation. Again, you and your DH have hearts of gold.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Reading that, I think your niece getting her own place right now is a bad idea.

She doesn't know any way but the way she grew up...living with you shows her something new. She can't be expected to change overnight, but given time, she will absorb what you demonstrate.

As far as her buying food from the dollar store to eat - at least she IS buying food. A lot of people think organic is a waste of money, especially when you don't have money to spare. Judging someone for buying food (gasp! to EAT!!!) at the dollar store is incredibly classist, IMO. It's great that you are in a financial situation where you can afford to be snobby about the food you eat. Don't judge your impoverished niece for not being in the same position. She could be a lot worse, like my nephew's mother, who buys drugs and cigarettes instead of food.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

I can remotely relate though it's nothing that extreme. My skids' mom is in some ways brilliant, but a few other things worry me quite a lot. I'm glad to be there as a resource for the kids, and for her as well. A friend was telling me that there have been studies of resiliant kids, or perhaps it was girls specifically, and they all had an important adult outside the family.

It sounds like you guys are going with the flow and it's the best thing for everyone so far. Sounds like with the way things are going she may be happy to stay with you as well. Even if not, keep in mind that even a relatively small amount of time with you guys may have a profound influence on the lives of these kids. After all, what made a big difference for your DH was joining the marines... these kids will have actually seen a different way of living and parenting as children, and enjoyed it themselves. That can make a huge difference.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004* 
Wow, what a situation.

First of all, congratulations to you and your DH for making more of your lives than you got from your families. Breaking the cycle is so very commendable.

And congratulations for hanging in their with the niece and more importantly her kids. Most people wouldn't have opened their homes and hearts like you have.

A few random ideas off the top of my head:

Quote:

--can the niece get public assistance, subsidized housing, food stamps, WIC, or any other kind of aid? does she get child support from the kids' dad?
She gets support from one of the dads, but hasn't since she moved here and I worry abouit it continuing since he just got out of the Marines and I don't know what his income is like. Neither of these dads are involved with their kids in any way, by the way







:
She told me that she doesn't need assistance, but I told her she should apply anyway because it is not that difficult to get medical assistance and food stamps - it's not like she is looking for cash assistance. I plan on watching the kids for sure.

Quote:

--does the niece attend a church? many have "hand up" programs and/or can provide some employment
she grew up catholic, but is not interested in church or religion I guess

Quote:

--can the kids get into a Head Start program? the ones I know anything about provide healthy meals, reading, physical activity, etc.
I guess this is what the 5 yr old was in last year and her mom really depended on this a lot. She will be starting school at our neighborhood school this fall. She has already registered. I will be getting her off the bus, etc.
I don't want to push for the 3 yr old to go to head start, although at age 4 she might put him in it anyway. I'm not so concerned about him since he'll be home with me and dd and not being babysat by god knows who.

Quote:

--does the niece have literacy problems herself? I've heard that oftentimes a parent doesn't read to a child because the parent CAN'T read even a toddler level book
This is a good question. I know she can read, but I have no idea to what degree - being able to read the mail and road signs doesn't tell you much.

Quote:

--does your local community college have parenting classes? job training?
I would love for her to do this but at this time I don't see how to bring up the parenting classes without insulting her. The idea of community college - I have already thought about and do plan to bring it up to her since I know she could grants and go for free, since I did this myself.

Quote:

--are there any support groups she could go to? sometimes people are more receptive to information if it isn't coming from family


It would be great for her to go to a support group or something, but I'm not sure she would go. She told us that her and her brother saw a psychiatrist when they were kids because them and their mom had to move in with their aunt because their mom had to have surgery. Their aunt is real mean and puts them down all the time. Apparently she feels the psychiatrist was a quack and that they all are the same. I guess counseling, etc. gets lumped with all of that.
We'll keep working on it over time though.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 

Quote:

Reading that, I think your niece getting her own place right now is a bad idea.

She doesn't know any way but the way she grew up...living with you shows her something new. She can't be expected to change overnight, but given time, she will absorb what you demonstrate.
Good feedback - thanks

Quote:

As far as her buying food from the dollar store to eat - at least she IS buying food. A lot of people think organic is a waste of money, especially when you don't have money to spare. Judging someone for buying food (gasp! to EAT!!!) at the dollar store is incredibly classist, IMO. It's great that you are in a financial situation where you can afford to be snobby about the food you eat. Don't judge your impoverished niece for not being in the same position. She could be a lot worse, like my nephew's mother, who buys drugs and cigarettes instead of food.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was just giving examples of how we live differently. I am not downing her buying food from the dollar store at all. I just think that it might be awkward for her because I think she thinks we are wasteful in how much we spend on food and that I let the kids play with food from the dollar store, etc.
I was also pointing out how she values things that are basic life essentials and we have the luxury of valuing even more than that and how I'm finding out more about her and her life and how hard it has been for her.

Trust me, we have been poor on more than one occasion and have had to buy food that was not what we prefer. DH has been out of a job on more than one occasion, for periods of time, and we have had to buy the cheapest food we can find. I'm not snubbing my nose about that at all.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinxie* 









Quote:

A friend was telling me that there have been studies of resiliant kids, or perhaps it was girls specifically, and they all had an important adult outside the family.

It sounds like you guys are going with the flow and it's the best thing for everyone so far. Sounds like with the way things are going she may be happy to stay with you as well. Even if not, keep in mind that even a relatively small amount of time with you guys may have a profound influence on the lives of these kids. After all, what made a big difference for your DH was joining the marines... these kids will have actually seen a different way of living and parenting as children, and enjoyed it themselves. That can make a huge difference.


Ya, I'm trying to remember the few adults in my life, as a kid, who really went out of their way for me and could tell that I was depressed and unhappy. I never really had someone long term, but I know that these little things made a difference for me in little ways.

These kids are just sopping up attention from us right now and love any little compliment we give them. Just saying "good job" when they do a puzzle makes them beam. It makes me sad, but happy that we can do that for them.
I'm a bit worried that since the kids are coming to us more and more that our niece could get really mad about losing some control over the kids and insist we stay out of things more. That's my biggest concern actually.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

So, you are are a better mom than her?

Basically, that's what I am taking away from your post. I know you will say "NO, that's not what I am saying at all" but consider ......

You say that you serve the right food, have the right toys, buy the right clothes, discipline the right way. Don't think your niece doesn't pick up on your subtle disapproval.

She sounds like she already has depression and anxiety issues couple that with probably not knowing any other lifestyle than a poverty one. Add to that her having to watch you parent her children - read to them, cuddle them when they are upset, etc - in a way she probably realizes is much healthier and better for the kids than some of the choices she has made and of course she is going to be yelling and annoyed at her kids bc all that is going to raise her anxiety level (she can't be as good of a parent as you can) and feed her depression. She already knows her lifestyle is below yours so making yourself out to be the "better" mom doesn't help.

It's nice to want to "save" the kids but they don't need to be saved. Try helping your neice. Model parenting by example. She may follow some things and others she probably won't. Encourage her to seek help for her depression/anxiety. Offer to find a doctor, go with her to the appointment, fill the Rx for the meds if you have to. Helping an adult is not has fun or exciting as helping her little kids but it is far more productive and helpful then feeding her depression/anxiety and saying "oh these poor kids need me they don't have shoes, or the right food or even books!"

If you want things to change for these kids, worry less about changing the wrapping - the food, the books, the clothes - and more about changing the things that matter - their moms feelings, her ability to make better choices, her chance to see better choices being made so that she can model them...

Maggie


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
Model parenting by example. She may follow some things and others she probably won't. Encourage her to seek help for her depression/anxiety. Offer to find a doctor, go with her to the appointment, fill the Rx for the meds if you have to. Helping an adult is not has fun or exciting as helping her little kids but it is far more productive and helpful then feeding her depression/anxiety and saying "oh these poor kids need me they don't have shoes, or the right food or even books!"

If you want things to change for these kids, worry less about changing the wrapping - the food, the books, the clothes - and more about changing the things that matter - their moms feelings, her ability to make better choices, her chance to see better choices being made so that she can model them...

Maggie

ITA w/this. I was 19 when my son was born and to some degree I was a lot like your niece but thanks to a wonderful MIL and a few other folks, I was able to change my life and my parenting. I am now 34, I went back to school and got my degree, but more importantly I learned different ways of being.

I cringe now when I think how I was with my son who is 15, it looks nothing like theparent I am now with my 2 yo dd. People can change, they just need some help sometimes.

I'd focus on getting her to get help for that depression rather than focusing on food and toys. I can assure you 15 years ago I was buying the cheapest I could buy, hell my son used to drink those kol-aid barrell drinks, needless to say my daughter does not.

When you know better, you do better and in the case of your neice up until now she has been modeling the bahavior she grew up with.

Shay


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I agree with m9m9m9.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So, you are are a better mom than her?

Basically, that's what I am taking away from your post. I know you will say "NO, that's not what I am saying at all" but consider ......

You say that you serve the right food, have the right toys, buy the right clothes, discipline the right way. Don't think your niece doesn't pick up on your subtle disapproval.

She sounds like she already has depression and anxiety issues couple that with probably not knowing any other lifestyle than a poverty one. Add to that her having to watch you parent her children - read to them, cuddle them when they are upset, etc - in a way she probably realizes is much healthier and better for the kids than some of the choices she has made and of course she is going to be yelling and annoyed at her kids bc all that is going to raise her anxiety level (she can't be as good of a parent as you can) and feed her depression. She already knows her lifestyle is below yours so making yourself out to be the "better" mom doesn't help.

It's nice to want to "save" the kids but they don't need to be saved. Try helping your neice. Model parenting by example. She may follow some things and others she probably won't. Encourage her to seek help for her depression/anxiety. Offer to find a doctor, go with her to the appointment, fill the Rx for the meds if you have to. Helping an adult is not has fun or exciting as helping her little kids but it is far more productive and helpful then feeding her depression/anxiety and saying "oh these poor kids need me they don't have shoes, or the right food or even books!"

If you want things to change for these kids, worry less about changing the wrapping - the food, the books, the clothes - and more about changing the things that matter - their moms feelings, her ability to make better choices, her chance to see better choices being made so that she can model them...

Maggie

ITA


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
S
It's nice to want to "save" the kids but they don't need to be saved. Try helping your neice. Model parenting by example. She may follow some things and others she probably won't. Encourage her to seek help for her depression/anxiety. Offer to find a doctor, go with her to the appointment, fill the Rx for the meds if you have to. Helping an adult is not has fun or exciting as helping her little kids but it is far more productive and helpful then feeding her depression/anxiety and saying "oh these poor kids need me they don't have shoes, or the right food or even books!"

If you want things to change for these kids, worry less about changing the wrapping - the food, the books, the clothes - and more about changing the things that matter - their moms feelings, her ability to make better choices, her chance to see better choices being made so that she can model them...

Maggie

Excellent advice.


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

This is a support forum, instead of hearing support for this mom who has done something wonderful for her niece and is posting here to get additional advice on how to help her, she is being called names, subtly attacked and is assumed to have the worst intentions. Lets give each other the benefit of the doubt here. This support forum is supposed to espouse natural family living, that includes good nutrition and gentle discipline. The poster believes in these values, and I think its rather bizarre to be condemning her for wanting to teach them to her niece.

To the OP - I do think that modeling is the best way to impart your values on your niece. Directly telling anyone they aren't doing something right regardless of what it is tends to turn them off, and the younger the person is, I think the more they feel this way. I know I am that type of person. It doesn't sound like your niece has been with you long - it will take a while before you'll start to see changes in her, but keep the faith that she will be taking in what you are teaching by example.

For the nutrition - it sounds like the issue is not really organic versus dollar store but a much more basic lack of nutrition. Do you eat meals completely seperately? Why not start having family meals together once or twice a week giving you a chance to model better nutrition and if anything her kids will be exposed to a few vegetables along the way.

On the gentle discipline - it sounds like you are doing the best thing already - model gentle discipline. Keep in mind that everyone has different temperments. I believe in GD, but I also get frustrated and yell at my kids, its part of my hot tempered nature. When she brings up that you are babying the children, that seems like a good time to work in a small conversation on why you believe in GD and why you do it.

On her - it does sound like she is depressed. But in terms of counseling - it has to be something she really wants. You are the only one who knows your relationship, maybe it is something you or DH could broach with her, but most likely it will just make her feel worse to suggest she needs therapy, especially if she's heard negative things about it in the past. Perhaps you can have a conversation with her at some point (maybe now is not the right time) about what she wants in life, in the context of that you want to support her in whatever she wants to do. Let her know that if she wants to go back to school or learn a trade, that you would be willing to support her in doing that, let her know she has options, but try to say it in a way that doesn't imply she has to choose those things, you don't want her to feel like you are criticizing her, just that she has choices. It's a tough line to walk I think.

Lastly I wanted to say what wonderful people your DH and you are for taking her in and doing this for her. It's a huge sacrifice on your part.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I also wondered if she has a literacy issue--the comment about children's books being too long would point to that.

You're doing a good thing helping out--it's tough having anyone in your home for an extended period of time and will be a big adjustment to everyone, but you are offering her a window into a different kind of life.

She sounds very young, and if she's been living in a non-supportive borderline dangerous environment for a long time she is probably very stressed and depressed and it's going to take time for her to get to a healthy place.

It sounds like she's working hard, and doing her best to provide for her kids--I think the best thing you can do is keep talking to her, keep giving her emotional support, and keep offering her healthy alternatives-whether that be nutrition or dealing with stress.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I'm no authority but it sounds to me like you are doing great things all around and maybe shouldn't focus on changes or next steps so much as just try to "be" for a little while. Let her do her thing, see you do your thing, let the kids be happy, her see them happy, etc.

I am just thinking less is more here. Less talking to her directly about any kind of changes she should make, or even asking her if she wants to change (go to school, get a better job, etc.) and just be there for her if/when she asks for help.

I think she "sees" everything that is going on and is deciding how to react. Maybe she is wondering how long this will go on before you & DH push her away, or other similar treatment she has gotten in the past. I'm sure she has many walls up that only time & gentleness can get over.

She may be reserving judgment on accepting your lifestyle until she feels something that resembles unconditional love. Meaning, she needs to feel accepted by you before she can be accepting of you & your family. Does that make any sense?


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## mija (Sep 21, 2002)

I agree to try and treat her as an equal, and defer to her parenting authority with her kids. One good way to broach parenting classes is to take one *with* her. None of us are perfect, I think everyone benefits from some time to reflect on parenting. I grew up in a rough situation too, and it really makes me happy to see people reaching out.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

couldn't read thru that and not offer







s

she sounds really depressed imo--you've got to care about yourSelf before you can care properly for others, right?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So, you are are a better mom than her?

Basically, that's what I am taking away from your post. I know you will say "NO, that's not what I am saying at all" but consider ......

You say that you serve the right food, have the right toys, buy the right clothes, discipline the right way. Don't think your niece doesn't pick up on your subtle disapproval.

Well, uh... I would say the OP is definitely a 'better mom' than her niece is right now.









Good food, good discipline - these things are not 'judge not' issues. It sounds very much like the OP serves better food, knows more about nutrition, and disciplines children in a more respectful way. What is wrong with acknowledging that? Non judgment can become ridiculous, and situations like this prove it IMO.

OP - what struck me reading your post is that you are witnessing a combination of the wounds of poverty and the wounds of shame-based parenting, through the generations. You are seeing how what your niece has learned impacts her now, and how she is passing on that learning to her children, who are always sponges and soak this stuff right in.

Yes it is probably obvious to your niece that you and your dh disapprove of the food and the discipline. This is good, IMO, because it comes within the context of genuine affection for your niece as a person, and a good relationship wherein she cares about your and your dh's opinions.

Good! Guide her!! It sounds like this is what you are doing. And, you are not passing judgment from afar. You are right in there, hands dirty and house full of extra people. Fabulous.

It sounds to me like she is really open to being guided in a loving way. I think this is an excellent chance to help her undo the wounds of generations, and pass on a more positive legacy to her own children. I commend you for utilizing this opportunity!!


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

It sounds to me like living with you may be a good thing for your niece and her kids. If your niece has only known poverty with disinterested, stressed parents (from her own experience), then how can she provide something different for her kids? It's very, very hard to parent in a way that's completley different from your own parents; it's even harder if you had no other models, no kind neighbors or relatives who at least provided a model to aspire to. You can be that model for your niece.

Your niece probably needs "parenting" herself. I don't mean parenting in the sense of telling her what to do. Instead, I mean more in the modeling of unconditional love and acceptance of her kids - and of her. From what you say, she probably didn't get a lot of that growing up, but you're in a unique position to help provide it now. I know it's hard (and I know I don't know the half of it!) to see her parenting in ways that are so different from what most of us would like, but in order for her to change, she has to not just see a different way, but begin to see the world differently.

To really change with her parenting, she probably has to get to a place where she feels safe. Her comment that you're too soft on her kids really struck me. To survive in the world she's known, she probably had to shut down emotionally a lot, and being "coddled" doesn't lead to that. But in order to see that kind of "coddling" as healthy and necessary for kids of all ages, she'll probably have to get to a place where she can let her guard down and feel coddled herself, if that makes any sense.

Remember, it's incredibly hard to change how you parent. I know that I try every single day to do some things differently from how my parents did them, and yet I still find myself yelling sometimes or snapping in a tone that makes me cringe. And I do those things after growing up in a pretty darn privileged environment where I was deeply loved and knew it. I can't imagine trying to change the much more fundamental parts of how I relate to my child.

And remember, that's really what you want her to do. You want her to change the very most basic parts of how she parents her children. Would that be a good thing? From what you've said, almost certainly. But it's going to be a long, hard road.

FWIW, I agree completely with the poster above who said that trying to help her get her own place right now would not be a good thing. It sounds like she really does need a stable environment to pull her life together, and like I said, she needs the modeling. Plus, it's good for her kids to see another way.

Is there a chance that you could eventually help her get assistance to go back to school part-time so that her long-term job prospects are better? She may not be ready for that (or even that suggestion) right now, but time and love might change that.

Can you talk to your niece and maybe suggest that she plan on eating with you all as a family? It sounds like you're doing more of that anyway, but knowing that she could count on it might make her feel more comfortable about it. Meals together could help show her and the kids another way of life, you know?

Sorry this was so long! Good luck, Jude. I know it's got to be hard, but maybe it would help to remember that everything you do for and with that family increases the chances that someone (the niece and/or the kids) will develop the resiliency needed to live life differently than what they've had up til now.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So, you are are a better mom than her?



I'll answer this for the OP. Why YES, she is a much better mom!!! Why is that so awful to say!! Have you not read the details of her post? Depressed or not, those kids have it pretty crummy with her!!

OP. Bless you for taking care of those children. I am so thankful there are people like you, and I am glad they have you in their lives. I wish I had advice, but I don't. You are in my prayers.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

It must be so hard to see people you love living in such poverty.

Your post was a bit jumbled, but I can see you're sad about her standard of living, but differently sad about her lack of parenting skills. She's never had anyone teach her how to parent, poor woman. And to be on her own with her kids all the time, too. You'd just be so tired and strung out - who'd have the patience or knowledge to know there's a different way?

I think your best bet to help improve her parenting is to start on a subtle education campaign, with really short messages that you can reinforce and demonstrate.

So, for example, show her how she can buy cheap vegetables, they don't need to be organic, or how she can find pre-prepared snacks that are better for her kids. Things like frozen peas are very healthy, and cheap, too. She's probably never been taught how to cook and shop that way you and I have - watching for what's in season and therefore cheap, building a meal around what's looking good this week, etc. You could try to shop and cook with her whenever you can, so she sees how it's done. maybe adapt your style of eating and cooking to be more of a halfway point between your style and hers for a while, or every so often. Like that she can put a tin of tomatoes and some frozen peas in with a boxed mac'n'cheese, for example. Or that frozen apple juice is as cheap as kool aid or fizzy drinks, and better for her kids (especially if she waters it down!).

With parenting, I'd do the same sort of thing - point out why some things work better than others, mention how things work with your daughter (less judgemental than saying "your daughter was calm and happy when I spent 20 minutes reading to her") - say things like "oh, I know, whenever I was too busy to spend ten minutes playing with DD, she's get so whiny and cranky", or hunger/tiredness, whatever.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Good food, good discipline - these things are not 'judge not' issues. It sounds very much like the OP serves better food, knows more about nutrition, and disciplines children in a more respectful way. What is wrong with acknowledging that? Non judgment can become ridiculous, and situations like this prove it IMO.


Wait a minute...

The entire post seemed to be nothing more than judging the other mother. Not just for the things she wasn't so great at, but for EVERYTHING. There was not one positive statement in there. And yet we're supposed to embrace this judgmental attitude because now its good??! Sorry, not following.

Natural parenting website or not... cheaper food doesn't mean that the other mother serves "better food." It only means that the other mother obviously has no idea what poverty feels like at all and only knows how to judge others based on income.

Which is very much what your post feels like as well.


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## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

to you, you are doing a wondeful thing for your nice and her kids.

I agree with Sphinxie that now may be a good time for going with the flow, seeing how they land lies and all getting to know each other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
DH and I have always wanted more kids and still have not ruled out adopting a child out of foster care - in a way this fills part of that void for us.

I guess this is the part that is upsetting previous posters. You need to remeber that you have NOT adopted these kids. Your niece is their mother. You should only be giving help and advise in your role as a relative/day care provider.

I think it's perfectly resonable to offer advise if it seems like it might be well recieved. But it's hard to know where the line is, every other post on MDC seems to be about relatives offering unwanted advise!

Im your role looking after them during the day obviously you should take them out, feed them nutrious food etc. Thats what a good day care provider would do. And if you want to cook nutrious food, say help yourself to our panty or what ever, fine.

More detailed advise about how to parent/feed kids/procede with life ect is probably best left uless she asks or seems genuinly intrested.

The GD stuff will probably be the hardest to handle as it sounds like you could not moraly stand by and do nothing. It seems from your nieces comments that she may be yelling out of despreation/no other ideas rather than as a philospohy. So I think it might be best to sit down and talk to her honselty. Something like "When dd gets like X I find it really helps if dh does Y. Is there anything I could do to support you when your children are annoying you?" And offer suggestions if she doesn't have any. Then what ever you do will be helping and not underming her.

Anyway lots of luck. You are truly doing some good in the world for this family. Let us know what happens.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Wait a minute...

The entire post seemed to be nothing more than judging the other mother. Not just for the things she wasn't so great at, but for EVERYTHING. There was not one positive statement in there. And yet we're supposed to embrace this judgmental attitude because now its good??! Sorry, not following.

It sounds like the OP is noticing a multitude of things in her niece's life and parenting that are shocking to her and in her opinion (and in mine as well)... pretty damaging. Both for the niece and the children.

Quote:

Natural parenting website or not... cheaper food doesn't mean that the other mother serves "better food." It only means that the other mother obviously has no idea what poverty feels like at all and only knows how to judge others based on income.

Which is very much what your post feels like as well.
Organic vegetables vs dollar store food? I don't think it is rocket science to figure out which is better, or horrible to make a judgment about which is better.

I know a lot about what poverty feels like. I happen to be on the dole myself and I have been waiting for my GST cheque to come in the mail, coz I had NO money. It came this morning and I did a little happy dance. So I do get poverty, very much so.

I don't think the OP is judging her niece as a horrible person, or anything of the sort. I think she is seeing the whole context for what it is, the negative impacts of long term cross generational poverty, and of shame based parenting.

Which we really need to see clearly, if we want to create change. IMO.

I noticed with my ex girlfriend, she comes from poverty, I from upper middle class privilege. We were both poor, together. Yet my sense of entitlement and hers were very divergent, because of the learning that came from our class backgrounds. She is content with a permanent job, where she can wear pants instead of a dress-uniform (she is butch). She cleans rooms in a hotel and never wanted anything more, could never fathom that she would be entitled to a less backbreaking job with better hours, benefits, and a living wage. She buys dollar store food. When our phone got cut off, we both phoned at the same time from our jobs to get it reconnected. She was told a week and a $200 fee, I got an apology and reconnection within 24 hours at no charge.

What we are taught about ourselves, and to what degree we leave it unexamined and so pass it on to our children, does matter. A lot.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Wait a minute...

The entire post seemed to be nothing more than judging the other mother. Not just for the things she wasn't so great at, but for EVERYTHING. There was not one positive statement in there. And yet we're supposed to embrace this judgmental attitude because now its good??! Sorry, not following.

Natural parenting website or not... cheaper food doesn't mean that the other mother serves "better food." It only means that the other mother obviously has no idea what poverty feels like at all and only knows how to judge others based on income.

Which is very much what your post feels like as well.


I thought the OP was very respectful towards the other mother. Plus, she is venting a frustration. Plus, there are a whole lot of other things that momma is doing besides feeding her kids cheap food.

I commend her for trying to make a positive difference in these kids lives. It does sound like their mom needs some help. Regardless, it is not okay for the kids to be screamed at, not play outside, not get attention, etc....

I would certainly be frustrated having a person like that in my house, too.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

It's amazing and commendable that she is taking in this family and helping them when they are in a very vulnerable situation and trying to improve their lives. This could very well be the turning point that lets them live the life they really want to.

But....

Whether or not the OP is a "better" parent than the *niece IS these children's mother*. Statements suggested that taking care of these children is similar to adopting a child or to foster care, or that it's great when the mom is at work and the OP gets the kids all to herself, are big red flags for me. The whole post felt, to me, like the OP was saying "this woman is a poor parent and I could do a better job and I will". No kudos to the woman for trying to get out of a bad situation, just a lot of looking down on her and her choices. Maybe that's not the truth of the situation at all, but that's sort of how it came across.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Organic vegetables vs dollar store food? I don't think it is rocket science to figure out which is better, or horrible to make a judgment about which is better.


Nutritionally yes. But you know... there are a LOT of better things I could buy for my children and myself, if I could only afford it. So what does that say about my parenting? That you, or the OP is a "better" parent than I am based on what we can afford to purchase?

I just don't like that. I don't think it says a lot about the type of parent I am at all, or the type of parent the OP is.

My ex husband buys expensive food, all the things money can buy... but he's a horrible parent and my daughter hates living there because of how mean and disinterested he is.

Statements about how much better organic is vs. dollar store food just makes me think of that. Money does not make everything better. Now granted, the woman in the OP's post does sound like she has quite a few things that are not going great for her right now.... but why must the price of her food come into play? That, I just don't understand.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Nutritionally yes. But you know... there are a LOT of better things I could buy for my children and myself, if I could only afford it. So what does that say about my parenting? That you, or the OP is a "better" parent than I am based on what we can afford to purchase?

No, that is not the point at all.

The point for me is that along with entrenched poverty can and does come learning about entitlement. It sounds like this mama knows not very much about nutrition, and does not know that dollar store food is not great.

It is possible to be poor and eat well. I know, because I do it. It is more challenging, yes. And I could see that previously this mama may not have had kitchen facilities and equipment to cook healthy inexpensive food.

But, she does now. So why is she not doing it? Lack of knowledge about nutrition, and habits developed in the context of a lifetime of not feeling entitled, is my best guess.

I see this stuff all the time. My Gramma was poor most of her life. Now she is not. Yet she still buys iceburg lettuce, tinned soups, cheap refined grain everything. She can afford better, but she does not know any different.

I think seeing how other people live, people who have learned they are entitled to good food, to a break from the children, to being spoken to with respect... can go a long way toward helping somebody shift their worldview, shift the paradigm within which they operate.

I do not think judgment from afar helps at all. But this OP is living with this woman and her kids, helping out, doing childcare, making food. And it sounds like they have a good, affectionate context for this learning to take place.

I say use it!! Let's not shame the OP out of helping her niece and her children move to a different view of themselves, each other, and the world. I think paradigm shifting in this way is really, really important work.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Nutritionally yes. But you know... there are a LOT of better things I could buy for my children and myself, if I could only afford it. So what does that say about my parenting? That you, or the OP is a "better" parent than I am based on what we can afford to purchase?

I just don't like that. I don't think it says a lot about the type of parent I am at all, or the type of parent the OP is.

My ex husband buys expensive food, all the things money can buy... but he's a horrible parent and my daughter hates living there because of how mean and disinterested he is.

Statements about how much better organic is vs. dollar store food just makes me think of that. Money does not make everything better. Now granted, the woman in the OP's post does sound like she has quite a few things that are not going great for her right now.... but why must the price of her food come into play? That, I just don't understand.


I don't get why you are so focused on the food part, when there are so many issues.

Plus, it's not just that it's "organic." She said the kids don't even know basic vegetables and the only fruit is fruit cocktail. This is a general nutrition issue. But again, much much more than just food.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 

Quote:

So, you are are a better mom than her?
No, we both love our children equally. Have I had more opportunities to be educated about parenting styles? Yes. Have I spent years in therapy and taking anti-depressants to deal with, and understand, my own abusive childhood? Yes. Do I have more support from a great dh and others? Yes.
I am not claiming to be a better mother the way you are assuming I am, but I realize that I have had more opportunities and have been lucky enough to find a way out of it all.

Quote:

It's nice to want to "save" the kids but they don't need to be saved. Try helping your neice. Model parenting by example. She may follow some things and others she probably won't. Encourage her to seek help for her depression/anxiety. Offer to find a doctor, go with her to the appointment, fill the Rx for the meds if you have to. Helping an adult is not has fun or exciting as helping her little kids but it is far more productive and helpful then feeding her depression/anxiety and saying "oh these poor kids need me they don't have shoes, or the right food or even books!"

If you want things to change for these kids, worry less about changing the wrapping - the food, the books, the clothes - and more about changing the things that matter - their moms feelings, her ability to make better choices, her chance to see better choices being made so that she can model them...

Maggie

Well, we are doing both. She knows that we have both been to therapy in our life so she knows we don't look down on that. Although I can hardly bare to watch her interact with her kids half of the time that does not change how I feel about her. I really do understand that food and clothes, etc. are only the wrapping, but if you know abut Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs --- http://www.businessballs.com/images/maslow's_hierarchy_businessballs.jpg

My niece and her kids barely have the first one which includes a roof over their head, good, clothing, etc. and my niece or her kids have never had the next two which is safety & stability, and affection and relationships, etc.

I do think that her and her kids basic needs need to be met before she can start thinking about other things. She has spent her whole life worrying about survival and that is the one thing that we can actually help fix for them.

We realize that our niece is the priority. I have taken her to the movies and out to dinner and to the mall and asked her about other things she would like to do - all of these things without the kids. She has never had any time to herself unless she is at work(which doesn't count). We have also given her money and told her to go out and do stuff while we watch the kids.
These are the only things I have seen her get excited about since she's been here. She is so excited that she can trust someone else with the kids and can have time to herself. She also goes downstairs and takes naps after work sometimes. All of these things are new to her and have to do with taking care of herself. We have not lost sight of this being the core issue.


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## DBassett (May 15, 2007)

I will say this though- if she's refusing to get financial assistance then yes, she does need to learn quite a bit. IF she's working a minimum wage job and WON'T seek assistance then IMVHO she's not properly caring for her children. THAT is the indicator of a bad parent, not what food she buys, the shoes, the way she disciplines. Her kids are eating, clothed and she's not beating them so that should have nothing to do with whether or not she's a good mother.

She may not be eligible for foodstamps unless she's paying rent to the OP and she actually has bills. When we were staying with our friends we couldn't get food stamps bc without bills, DBF's $8.50/hr was considered TOO MUCH money for foodstamps. She should be able to get WIC because WIC goes by "household" and her and her children are a separate household. She should also be able to get them medical assistance because I'm assuming that you don't have the ability to put them on your insurance plan thus because nobody can provide them with insurance and the mom is working a minimum wage job, she should be eligible.

Honestly, if she gets housing assistance and moves out, she may never get out of that situation. I know a family who is living off the state. They have NO income. They have a child. The state covers their rent and gives them money to pay their bills. They somehow also have money for internet access, cigarettes, etc etc. They are being supported for being bums.

I think you need to HELP her but not judge her. Judging her may push her away and cause more harm than anything. If she wants to further her education, HELP her do so. Maybe not financially but maybe watch the children while she attends classes? If she doesn't want to further her education then maybe she should pick up a second minimum wage job or maybe you can help her look for something entry level that requires little experience or knowledge but the pay is better? Help her make a better life for herself financially but don't expect her to change the food, clothing, etc that she buys because people can have different views and still be good parents. As long as she's providing for her kids, loves them and shows that love then that's what matters. You said that she had to take the kids with her when she went to the movies because she felt she couldn't leave them with her mom- to me that says that she cares about their wellbeing. It's not like she's going out and partying while leaving her children with complete strangers. Obviously she cares about them.

I hope you're able to find an adequate solution that helps her without making her feel so judged.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mightymoo* 

Quote:

This is a support forum, instead of hearing support for this mom who has done something wonderful for her niece and is posting here to get additional advice on how to help her, she is being called names, subtly attacked and is assumed to have the worst intentions. Lets give each other the benefit of the doubt here. This support forum is supposed to espouse natural family living, that includes good nutrition and gentle discipline. The poster believes in these values, and I think its rather bizarre to be condemning her for wanting to teach them to her niece
thank you - I am doing my best and am not claiming to be doing anything perfectly - just our best.......but this IS why I am asking for feed back.

Quote:

To the OP - I do think that modeling is the best way to impart your values on your niece. Directly telling anyone they aren't doing something right regardless of what it is tends to turn them off, and the younger the person is, I think the more they feel this way. I know I am that type of person. It doesn't sound like your niece has been with you long - it will take a while before you'll start to see changes in her, but keep the faith that she will be taking in what you are teaching by example.
The only thing we have said to her directly is that we can't have spanking in the house - this was discussed over the phone before she came to live here. It was not said to her knowing she did this, but in discussing our own dd's needs, anxieties, etc. We tried to not make it just come from a "we're making rules" kind of way. We have never said anything to her about her parenting, although she does seem to take things from dh well because he has a great sense of humor and comes across really well most of the time (plus they have a history). DH has said things to her like "don't you dare raise your hand to your child" or "don't you dare threaten to hit them" and then she'll chuckle and tell him that she really is trying not to. We have gotten her to quit calling them "retards" based on the fact that dd is technically mildly retarded (according to the state), and so it is offensive to us from that standpoint. She has finally come around on that one, even though it took a few weeks of hearing it.
When she flips out on the kids, well worse than usual (since she does it so many times per day), we might ask her if she is stressed out, etc. which usually leads to her telling us about her day and usually ends up with her telling us that the kids are just too bad and she doesn't know what to do with them. She seems to be receptive to this.

We have never controdicted her to her or her children and we even go out of our way to back what she says. We do step in and try to resolve things between the kids when they are fighting and she is yelling at them. Since our kid is usually involved it makes it easier. We never step in when she is just yelling at the kids about whatever. We do comfort them when they cry, which is a lot. We comfort and then try to distract them which generally works. If you don't get them to quit crying she only escalates and keeps screaming "shut up!!! quit crying!".

There have already been changes in our niece which is exciting to see. I am hopeful that she can build a new life with her kids.

Quote:

For the nutrition - it sounds like the issue is not really organic versus dollar store but a much more basic lack of nutrition. Do you eat meals completely seperately? Why not start having family meals together once or twice a week giving you a chance to model better nutrition and if anything her kids will be exposed to a few vegetables along the way.
We do this already, however, we could be eating at the table together which would be good I think. The kids have already been exposed to different veggies, etc. and she has been surprised at the different things they have eaten.

Quote:

On the gentle discipline - it sounds like you are doing the best thing already - model gentle discipline. Keep in mind that everyone has different temperments. I believe in GD, but I also get frustrated and yell at my kids, its part of my hot tempered nature. When she brings up that you are babying the children, that seems like a good time to work in a small conversation on why you believe in GD and why you do it.
The only time she said "he doesn't need to be babied" is when he was crying after she yelled at him and he was standing in a pool of pee and she didn't ni=otice. I picked him up and was carrying him to the bathroom and she said "he doesn't need to be babied" and I said "he just peed" and then she said "oh". She yells at him when he doesn't make it ot the bathrom and he has been doing this more lately. I think it has to do with the move here, etc....and of course her yelling at him now makes it worse.

Quote:

On her - it does sound like she is depressed. But in terms of counseling - it has to be something she really wants. You are the only one who knows your relationship, maybe it is something you or DH could broach with her, but most likely it will just make her feel worse to suggest she needs therapy, especially if she's heard negative things about it in the past. Perhaps you can have a conversation with her at some point (maybe now is not the right time) about what she wants in life, in the context of that you want to support her in whatever she wants to do. Let her know that if she wants to go back to school or learn a trade, that you would be willing to support her in doing that, let her know she has options, but try to say it in a way that doesn't imply she has to choose those things, you don't want her to feel like you are criticizing her, just that she has choices. It's a tough line to walk I think.


Ya, I don't t hink now is the time to talk aboiut college, etc. I don't want to overwhelm her with this list of things we think she should be doing - or want to come across that way anyway. That will come in time and only if she's interested. It took someone making the suggestion to me when I was 25. No one in my family went to college and we never even knew it was an option. When someone suggested it I just went and did it. It never occured to me before that it was an option.
She's only been here and month, so there is lots of time to have conversations about what she might want to do.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 

Quote:

I also wondered if she has a literacy issue--the comment about children's books being too long would point to that.
I think she did take one or two classes at a community college after high school, so maybe I assumed from that. I guess this is a wait and see issue and then if it does turn out that it is an issue then we will have to figure out a way to bring that up.

Quote:

It sounds like she's working hard, and doing her best to provide for her kids--I think the best thing you can do is keep talking to her, keep giving her emotional support, and keep offering her healthy alternatives-whether that be nutrition or dealing with stress.


This is the goal - give support and then give it time.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

Yes. I am glad you care (really!) but choose battles carefully. I too am poor and as the above poster said, even $8 and hour for a family of 3 is considered too wealthy for food stamps.

I shop at the Dollar store for food. Dollar tree is reputable and sells milk, eggs, (same brand as supermarkeet, not seconds or returns). I have bought Boca products there too. $$ is unbeleivably tight now. Yes, we are back to white bread-I cannot afford even wheat bread (more than 50 cent more a loaf on a good day). I know about nutrition but I sure cannot live it. I have tried, not happening. Organic is a dream. Vegetables are a treat if we want full bellies some days. Mac and cheese is common place.

Headstart is supposedly nutrition based. My loathe for headstart aside, there nutrition is close to the current diet. Ketchup is a veggie. Spaghetti with jar meat sauce. Tuna. Campbell's soup. Just an fyi.

Livign with you will rub off on her. Don't press organic but cook it. Let the family experience good food and a loving home. Call and get the gov't medical program applications mailed to the home. Remind her it is good to have just in case of an accident (stitches, etc.) Having that may lead her to accept therapy. baby steps. And don't try to change her ompeltely. Lead by example.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I think she "sees" everything that is going on and is deciding how to react. Maybe she is wondering how long this will go on before you & DH push her away, or other similar treatment she has gotten in the past. I'm sure she has many walls up that only time & gentleness can get over.

She may be reserving judgment on accepting your lifestyle until she feels something that resembles unconditional love. Meaning, she needs to feel accepted by you before she can be accepting of you & your family. Does that make any sense?

This is a genius thought - thank you

I know plenty about this. I "tested" dh for years and years wondering if he was going to give me the boot.

Our niece has lots and lots of walls up and she really does not know how to react to our compliments or kindness, in general. Although people have been freaking out about us concentrating on material things I believe this is important as well. Her mother or anyone else has never given her things without her having to give them something in return. She has several men who have "given" her things - money, clothes for the kids, etc. but they all want something in return of course, which really sucks.

I know it will take a long time for her to realize that we are for real and that we won't give her the boot if she doesn't act the way we think she should. When she first came (maybe the first week) she had trouble accepting anything from us and dh had to have some long talks with her. She did a lot of crying even though she wouldn't say how she felt. She said "she doesn't talk to people". Anyway, she did get it through her head that she could accept things from us and she didn't "owe" us anything.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Hey there-

I think you are doing a really good job. Your niece is in a tough spot. You are doing what you can to help her. Taking her out showing her that the kids do not need to go every time. Getting to know her better and allowing her to open up and feel more comfortable around you guys. Modeling the behavior to your niece and the kids are a wonderful thing. Yeah- she might not like that you hug the kids and let them know you understand they are angry as opposed to whatever method she would choose-- but she might also realize even subconsciously that NOT hugging them and giving them POSITIVE affection and attention might not be the best thing.

As for the food- I most certainly would continue with introducing the kids to healthier food options with or without the mother around. I personally understand why you give your DD healthy foods- not only is it better (there I said -it call me classist but it's a fact fruits and vegetables organic or otherwise are better than dollar store food.) but considering some of what your DD has been through I would also want her to have the best to keep up her immune system! [Other readers- I know OP irl and followed her threads prior to knowing her]

I totally and completely think you and your DH are doing a wonderful thing and that you should keep doing what you are doing. I personally would try and bring up the food stamps thing again because it IS really helpful for her especially with the prices in the cities and the fact that she doesn't have a higher income job.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija* 
I agree to try and treat her as an equal, and defer to her parenting authority with her kids. One good way to broach parenting classes is to take one *with* her. None of us are perfect, I think everyone benefits from some time to reflect on parenting. I grew up in a rough situation too, and it really makes me happy to see people reaching out.

Good Idea!


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainyday* 
Your niece probably needs "parenting" herself. I don't mean parenting in the sense of telling her what to do. Instead, I mean more in the modeling of unconditional love and acceptance of her kids - and of her. From what you say, she probably didn't get a lot of that growing up, but you're in a unique position to help provide it now. I know it's hard (and I know I don't know the half of it!) to see her parenting in ways that are so different from what most of us would like, but in order for her to change, she has to not just see a different way, but begin to see the world differently.

To really change with her parenting, she probably has to get to a place where she feels safe. Her comment that you're too soft on her kids really struck me. To survive in the world she's known, she probably had to shut down emotionally a lot, and being "coddled" doesn't lead to that. But in order to see that kind of "coddling" as healthy and necessary for kids of all ages, she'll probably have to get to a place where she can let her guard down and feel coddled herself, if that makes any sense.

Remember, it's incredibly hard to change how you parent. I know that I try every single day to do some things differently from how my parents did them, and yet I still find myself yelling sometimes or snapping in a tone that makes me cringe. And I do those things after growing up in a pretty darn privileged environment where I was deeply loved and knew it. I can't imagine trying to change the much more fundamental parts of how I relate to my child.


I think this is true. She's never had a dad (well since she was 2 or something) and her mom parents like she does.

I went through this myself. I think dh did this for me and I had to learn to take care of myself too. Learning to value myself and learning to trust people, etc. Letting those walls down and learning to care about myself - that's big.

She asked dh if she could come here for a reason. He has been the only loving person in her life....and they only talked every 6 months for years. Although she doesn't hug back he does put his arm around her a lot. He tells her he loves her even though she rarely says it back. He tells her he is going to do all that stuff whether she likes it or not. She just smiles and doesn't say anything. He teases her and she always says he's such a dork and it's one of the few times you see her smile or laugh. I think dh can do a lot in this area. But just interacting like we are used to I hope she will learn to trust us to be there for her.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
She buys the cheapest food you can find and she treats it like gold... They all have the bare minimum of everything and are very excited about everything they get.


I wish I could practice the same degree and spirit of gratitude. She's got that going for her, for sure!

As PPs have said, it sounds a little like you're stepping over the and line and of course she can sense your judgement of her. Remember, they are her children. That's not to say you shouldn't care, but all you can really do is lead by example and love her unconditionally.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Where you live, are there any drop-in parenting centres or neighborhood houses?

Where I've lived, there have always been community organizations that have playgroups for parents and children, as well as parenting workshops, including pretty sensible discipline-related ones, nutrition and so on - all the better if they have them at hours that are ok for working parents, of course.

If there's anything like that around you, it could be a good way for her to interact with her kids in a fun, positive environment, where there are also workshops and classes on offer, without it being like saying "Hey, you! Take a parenting class!"


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Natural parenting website or not... cheaper food doesn't mean that the other mother serves "better food." It only means that the other mother obviously has no idea what poverty feels like at all and only knows how to judge others based on income.

Which is very much what your post feels like as well.

I'm sorry my posts feel like that. I actually do know what it feels like to be poor. As I said before dh grew up this same kind of poor - I grew up very poor for most of my childhood, but my parents went out of their way to find free or cheap things we could do and we did a lot of camping, etc. I know what it's like to be abused (physically and sexually), have to go without basic needs, be made fun of in school, etc. etc.

Again, as I have said, I only mentioned the cheap food to give some examples about how we live differently. I have bought plenty of food at the dollar store myself, and I am not knocking parents feeding their kids any way they are able.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silver_bird123456* 

I guess this is the part that is upsetting previous posters. You need to remeber that you have NOT adopted these kids. Your niece is their mother. You should only be giving help and advise in your role as a relative/day care provider.

I think it's perfectly resonable to offer advise if it seems like it might be well recieved. But it's hard to know where the line is, every other post on MDC seems to be about relatives offering unwanted advise!

Im your role looking after them during the day obviously you should take them out, feed them nutrious food etc. Thats what a good day care provider would do. And if you want to cook nutrious food, say help yourself to our panty or what ever, fine.

More detailed advise about how to parent/feed kids/procede with life ect is probably best left uless she asks or seems genuinly intrested.

The GD stuff will probably be the hardest to handle as it sounds like you could not moraly stand by and do nothing. It seems from your nieces comments that she may be yelling out of despreation/no other ideas rather than as a philospohy. So I think it might be best to sit down and talk to her honselty. Something like "When dd gets like X I find it really helps if dh does Y. Is there anything I could do to support you when your children are annoying you?" And offer suggestions if she doesn't have any. Then what ever you do will be helping and not underming her.

Anyway lots of luck. You are truly doing some good in the world for this family. Let us know what happens.


Yes, thank you. I know there are issues in my mind about adopting and now these kids are living here, etc.

I do need to remember that these are not my kids (not that I think they are, but I need to watch that I don't drift in that area). My issues with wanting more kids needs to stay seperate from helping my niece with her kids.
When I said that them being here was filling a void, in a way, I meant because we have a houseful of kids all the time now, not that I now have kids without adopting


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
But....

Whether or not the OP is a "better" parent than the *niece IS these children's mother*. Statements suggested that taking care of these children is similar to adopting a child or to foster care, or that it's great when the mom is at work and the OP gets the kids all to herself, are big red flags for me. The whole post felt, to me, like the OP was saying "this woman is a poor parent and I could do a better job and I will". No kudos to the woman for trying to get out of a bad situation, just a lot of looking down on her and her choices. Maybe that's not the truth of the situation at all, but that's sort of how it came across.









No, I really do give my niece lots of credit for making the big decision to move her kids up here with nothing and start from scratch. She really does want things to be better for them. I was ranting a bit as well as pointing out the things that have been hard so that's why I listed the negative things.

Me saying I like it better when I have the kids to myself isn't because I am "playing mama" to them - not at all. The reason I said that was because there is no yelling or crying, the house is more peaceful and the kids behave better (as all kids do when their parents aren't around). Having her working during the day now gives me half a day of a much quieter house. Before she started working I woke up every morning to yelling and screaming and the kids crying - this went on for an hour sometimes. Forgive me for being happy that I don't have to wake up to that 5 days a week now.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I agree that taking a parenting class together is a really good idea. I would probably approach it like, _"Hey niece, I'm going this group on Tuesday nights to talk about parenting. Wanna come with me? Dh will watch the kids and we can have a night out together."_

I would also be watching for every possible strength, and commenting on it -- a lot. Any hint of anything she does "right" -- point it out, compliment her for it, praise her. As it is, from what you have posted -- I can pick out a lot. She spends her money on food for her kids. She takes them everywhere she goes. She is concerned about teaching them how to behave in the world. She asks for help when she needs to, in order to put a roof over their heads. I'm sure that you can pick out a lot more to praise -- but remember you can build on what she has going for her. Give her the idea that she is a good mother with great potential, and she will make progress toward that ideal.

As far as her future -- it makes sense to just "be" right now, but start taking notice of her abilities and interests, and try to get a feel for what her passion might be. Find out what she loves, and nurture those things in her like you would with a child. That is what will lead to ambition.

If college is too "big" a deal, then think in terms of vocational training as well. There are a lot of routes to satisfying work, and college is certainly not the only option.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I agree that taking a parenting class together is a really good idea. I would probably approach it like, _"Hey niece, I'm going this group on Tuesday nights to talk about parenting. Wanna come with me? Dh will watch the kids and we can have a night out together."_

I would also be watching for every possible strength, and commenting on it -- a lot. Any hint of anything she does "right" -- point it out, compliment her for it, praise her. As it is, from what you have posted -- I can pick out a lot. She spends her money on food for her kids. She takes them everywhere she goes. She is concerned about teaching them how to behave in the world. She asks for help when she needs to, in order to put a roof over their heads. I'm sure that you can pick out a lot more to praise -- but remember you can build on what she has going for her. Give her the idea that she is a good mother with great potential, and she will make progress toward that ideal.

As far as her future -- it makes sense to just "be" right now, but start taking notice of her abilities and interests, and try to get a feel for what her passion might be. Find out what she loves, and nurture those things in her like you would with a child. That is what will lead to ambition.

If college is too "big" a deal, then think in terms of vocational training as well. There are a lot of routes to satisfying work, and college is certainly not the only option.

Thank you!!!! Wonderful suggestions. I like the stuff about pointing out her strengths. I think we do this some, but could focus on it a lot more.

Ya, if it ever comes to pass I was thinking more about a 2 year college thing or whatever.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose* 
Hey there-

I think you are doing a really good job. Your niece is in a tough spot. You are doing what you can to help her. Taking her out showing her that the kids do not need to go every time. Getting to know her better and allowing her to open up and feel more comfortable around you guys. Modeling the behavior to your niece and the kids are a wonderful thing. Yeah- she might not like that you hug the kids and let them know you understand they are angry as opposed to whatever method she would choose-- but she might also realize even subconsciously that NOT hugging them and giving them POSITIVE affection and attention might not be the best thing.

As for the food- I most certainly would continue with introducing the kids to healthier food options with or without the mother around. I personally understand why you give your DD healthy foods- not only is it better (there I said -it call me classist but it's a fact fruits and vegetables organic or otherwise are better than dollar store food.) but considering some of what your DD has been through I would also want her to have the best to keep up her immune system! [Other readers- I know OP irl and followed her threads prior to knowing her]

I totally and completely think you and your DH are doing a wonderful thing and that you should keep doing what you are doing. I personally would try and bring up the food stamps thing again because it IS really helpful for her especially with the prices in the cities and the fact that she doesn't have a higher income job.


thank you Ambrose - you know I love you


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
When I said that them being here was filling a void, in a way, I meant because we have a houseful of kids all the time now, not that I now have kids without adopting

Ah, so it's a bit like being a grandparent









Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
I was ranting a bit as well as pointing out the things that have been hard so that's why I listed the negative things.

I don't blame you for ranting







I was just pointing out that some things in the original post struck me as unhealthy. I don't presume to know whether or not that's actually true. The thing that made me so sensitive to the original post is that the power dynamic in this situation is so pronounced. This woman is living in your house, you are watching her kids, you have a lot of control over her life right now. I would have a hard time giving up that much power to someone who had as negative an opinion of me as you expressed having of her. But as you pointed out, you were venting, and I imagine you must have some strong positive feelings towards her too since you are doing so much to help out her family.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
Forgive me for being happy that I don't have to wake up to that 5 days a week now.

Honestly, I don't know if I could handle having someone with such a different way of living stay in my house at all! Peace and quiet are treasures


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Wow, congrats on doing this, I dont know if I could but you would be surpised where you find strength at...

I would make a list of things she is good at. Start focusing on those. In another few weeks, have her make a list what she is good at. If she struggles then you know she has no confidence. The poor lady has suffered so much over her life.

I dont have a problem w her showing her niece all the good things she does now- buys whole foods, reads to her children. Who cares who is the better parent, its more important for those kids to see a positive role model who can love them the way the OP is doing. I am hoping that the niece sees this and the reaction the kids are having and changing her ways.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

I wanted to say, I do think you're doing a wonderful thing with her that WILL ultimately make a difference in her life, and the lives of her children. I was a bit harsh in my first post, and left this important bit out.

So, kudos to you, for wanting to help, and opening your home and your heart to help her.


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Hi - I just wanted to say that you might want to consider keeping the younger one in Head Start. The reason is that Head Start is a family program, not just a preschool. They offer health screenings, referrals to resources and other programs for low-income families, parenting education, etc. It would be a way for your niece to connect into services and support, from people who are very experienced working with families in similar situations. In fact, HS often hires parents to work for them. The St. Paul Head Start program is quite good.

Also, since I'm also in MN, I would suggest that your niece see about getting on MN Care or MA for the kids at least, and getting food support too. She could use this screening tool: http://www.coveringallfamilies.org

Best wishes to you - I think it's wonderful that you are taking this on!


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## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
When I said that them being here was filling a void, in a way, I meant because we have a houseful of kids all the time now, not that I now have kids without adopting









I guessed it might be something like that. I just thought it was worth pointing out because as prothyraia says there is a big power dynamic between you and your niece. Anyway I'm glad your aware of it!

FWIW I didn't find your post judgmental at all.

And I totally agree with Mamaduck!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Sorry if i repeat. I haven't read the whole thread.

I think it would be better to be supportive of every good thing she does.

Don't look at it as "a crappy no where job and she doesn't want to do better" Look at it instead as "willing to work her butt of to support her kids at a job most people would consider themselves too good for." I work a low wage brain dead no where job. I am really good at it and was offered a management position within a few months (I declined because I wanted the flexibility and low hours that a bottom runger was entitled to. It might not have great health insurance but it does have other benefits). So even low paying jobs can turn into something that pays pretty well for smart hard workers. it also often has more flexibility for being a good parent.

Don't look at it as "buying crappy food from the dollar store not fit for consumption". Perhaps you can comment on how thrifty she is and what a good job she does providing for her children. it *is* a skill to be able to feed and clothe children on next to nothing.

You do not need to save your niece or these children. it sounds like they are way ahead of the curve. offer to take them (whole family) to the library , love them as people, not as projects and always remember just because it isn't what you would prefer doesn't make it bad. food is food. we wash down our organic peanut butter and all fruit jelly sandwiches with barrel of juice







you do what you can.

as for your niece you really have a chance to bless her. go ahead and get a sitter every now and then (it sounds like you have some extra cash flow so you can treat







)and go out and do something. She sounds like she could really use a break. like she really needs to catch her breath. help her get signed up for public assistance and help her feel ok with having to use it. I know I would have loved nothing more than if someone had stood unashamedly with me while I used my WIC for the first time. Someone to give a clear "screw you there is nothing wrong with needing help" vibe. focus on how much you love her. not just her children. tell her what a good mom she is (and it sounds like she is) and all that she is doing right. Once she believes she is a good mom, with good instincts she can fine tune her interactions and she will be able to be the mom she wants to be.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silver_bird123456* 
I guessed it might be something like that. I just thought it was worth pointing out because as prothyraia says there is a big power dynamic between you and your niece. Anyway I'm glad your aware of it!

Ya, we really do have a good relationship with her. I know I vented this big thing in the OP, but IRL we get along really well. There's no weird tension or anything. The big issue for me is listening to her shame the kids, threaten to hit the kids all the time and on top of that the yelling while she does it.

I realize that we have a lot of power here and that she is dependent on us. When she is here, especially, we are careful to tell the kids to go ask their mother if it's OK for them to have a snack or to do other stuff. We definitely have not taken over parenting the kids. I will say, however, she seems happy to have someone "parent" them so that she doesn't have to all the time. She's never had help before so I'm sure she probably appreciates it. The adults that have been around the kids, in the past, just did a lot of yelling and telling them to get out of their way and be quiet.

The children need a lot of things taught to them. They have only learned fear and not WHY you shouldn't do something. There's also a ton of social skills and manners that they've never been taught. When the 5 yr old walked past an old lady and pointed at her and said "You're old!" really loud her mom just laughed like crazy and said nothing. DH told her that that was rude to say to people. Same thing when the kids pee in the bathtub, pee in the pool, drink the bath water, drink the pool water, etc. She laughs but doesn't teach them anything about it. She seems fine when we say something to them about it though.
It's a fine line between wanting to teach the kids stuff and still honoring that she is the ultimate authority with the kids.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 

Quote:

Don't look at it as "a crappy no where job and she doesn't want to do better" Look at it instead as "willing to work her butt of to support her kids at a job most people would consider themselves too good for."
I agree with you. She IS a very hard worker and she has been working her ass off since she was 16. She has always had to give some of her money to support the household and help her mom, personally as well. She started this job where you sell stuff to businesses over the phone - no cold calls though. She made a sale the second day and she made one yesterday and they are very impressed with her. They say most people don't make a sale until they are there for a week or two.

Quote:

Don't look at it as "buying crappy food from the dollar store not fit for consumption". Perhaps you can comment on how thrifty she is and what a good job she does providing for her children. it *is* a skill to be able to feed and clothe children on next to nothing.
I agree with you. As I have said before, I was not downing the food she buys - I was listing our differences in the way that we live and how she is used to living because she has never had the luxury to do anything else.

Quote:

You do not need to save your niece or these children. it sounds like they are way ahead of the curve. offer to take them (whole family) to the library , love them as people, not as projects and always remember just because it isn't what you would prefer doesn't make it bad. food is food. we wash down our organic peanut butter and all fruit jelly sandwiches with barrel of juice







you do what you can.
I know it probably sounds like it on here because that is what I am focusing on, but I do not view her as a "project". I view her as my niece who could benefit from resources that I happen to know about.
I do take the whole family to the library. We take them everywhere with us. We go on day trips all the time. We have done more in a month that we do on our own in a year...so it's been good for us and dd too









Quote:

as for your niece you really have a chance to bless her. go ahead and get a sitter every now and then (it sounds like you have some extra cash flow so you can treat







)and go out and do something.
DH watches the kids and we do go out on occasion. I know it sounds like we have all this money, but actually we only have 2 or 3 hundred dollars left after bills and the first few weeks she was here we paid her bills too. The fact is that a few hundred dollars after bills is like a fortune to her and it makes a lot of difference. Being able to afford to take the kids to the pool or buying them clothes at the thrift store, etc. - that makes all the difference.

Quote:

She sounds like she could really use a break. like she really needs to catch her breath. help her get signed up for public assistance and help her feel ok with having to use it. I know I would have loved nothing more than if someone had stood unashamedly with me while I used my WIC for the first time. Someone to give a clear "screw you there is nothing wrong with needing help" vibe. focus on how much you love her. not just her children.


She really could use a break and we do love her just as much as the children. Lord knows we've known her longer








Contrary to what you might think we are not the rich folk looking down on the chick who has to apply for assistance. We have been in the system since our dd has been born. Since she has a disability she has medical assistance and for a few years after she was born we all were on medical assistance and got food stamps. My dd has a social worker, from the county, for her other benefits, etc. My niece knows there is no shame here and I don't think it would be an issue anyway - she has no shame in asking for help. She works her butt off and deserves any help she can get and she accepts it graciously. I plan to go with her to apply for everything. I've been there many times and I know how it all works.

I do not view her as some horrible person who I am way better than - I view her as a person who has not had the access to the things I have. Now she has a chance to benefit from what the city has to offer and what we can help her with.
This is how she views it herself and this was her purpose in moving here - to give her kids and herself a better life.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

I have to say that I am very grateful to those of you who have given advice. It gave me stuff to think about and confirm things that we are doing right. It's always good to check in with people and get their take on things.

Now let me say that I am getting tired of the issue about organic food vs "dolalr store food". Obviously this hit some kind of nerve, but if you read my OP you will find that it was just one thing that I listed when talking about our differences and I WAS NOT singling out the "dollar store food" as some big issue. I did have a bigger concern with the fact that the kids don't eat fruits and veggies, but that was just one thing I was worried about and wanted to introduce to them - it was not my focal point at all.
So from now on if people want to debate the dollar store food issue vs. organic then go for it, but I'm sick of trying to clarify.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Wait a minute...

The entire post seemed to be nothing more than judging the other mother. Not just for the things she wasn't so great at, but for EVERYTHING. There was not one positive statement in there. And yet we're supposed to embrace this judgmental attitude because now its good??! Sorry, not following.

Natural parenting website or not... cheaper food doesn't mean that the other mother serves "better food." It only means that the other mother obviously has no idea what poverty feels like at all and only knows how to judge others based on income.

Which is very much what your post feels like as well.

Oh wow...this isn't the impression I came away with at all.

Sometimes stating the facts is just that...stating the facts. And there is nothing judgemental about it at all...I think the OP's tone clearly implies empathy and compassion. And I wonder if those who feel it is judgemental might be coming from a place of serious defensiveness based on their own experiences of poverty or being judged??


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainyday* 

To really change with her parenting, she probably has to get to a place where she feels safe. Her comment that you're too soft on her kids really struck me. To survive in the world she's known, she probably had to shut down emotionally a lot, and being "coddled" doesn't lead to that. But in order to see that kind of "coddling" as healthy and necessary for kids of all ages, she'll probably have to get to a place where she can let her guard down and feel coddled herself, if that makes any sense.


ITA. Before I learned much about GD (although I had no kids) I thought it was nothing but indulging a child and given your drasticly different life styles she might see many of the things you do this way... as an indulgence, because she is used to surviving with so much less.

I thought the above was great advice









You have a big heart mama and it really shows. Blessings to you and your family!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
Contrary to what you might think we are not the rich folk looking down on the chick who has to apply for assistance.

i didn't mean to imply that you were looking down on her. But it is so hard to hand that EBT card or WIC voucher over the first time. Or to sheepishly say "we don't have insurance. we are on medicaid" right there in front of everyone. what i was saying is that it helps to have someone there to be proud of you instead of ashamed or judgmental. Someone who will go sign up with you and hold her head high as she walks into the office so you can too. A cheerleader of sorts. So many people do look down on others who have assistance. How much easier would it be to cross that line if someone was holding your hand and knowing how hard it was could be down right proud of you for sucking it up, swallowing your pride and doing what needs to be done. The hardest part for me was using that stuff for the first time. If I had just had a friend with me who had gotten over it already







It would have been much easier. Thats what I meant. It would probably help her be more comfortable with it if she could use it around people she looked up to and saw for certain they weren't embarrassed to be seen with her while she used it etc . . . I am not saying you are embarrassed but it helps sometimes to know that people aren't embarrassed to be associated with us and our vouchers you know. To see someone right there and know, really know that they just don't think it is a big deal. and to know at least one person isn't judging you.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
Oh wow...this isn't the impression I came away with at all.

Sometimes stating the facts is just that...stating the facts. And there is nothing judgemental about it at all...I think the OP's tone clearly implies empathy and compassion. And I wonder if those who feel it is judgemental might be coming from a place of serious defensiveness based on their own experiences of poverty or being judged??

Gosh, you think?!









There are plenty of things that I think the OP is doing right. And plenty that I see that is commendable. However, when people start saying that someone isn't a good parent because of X, Y, Z that they cannot afford.. or that someone else is a better parent because they CAN afford X, Y, Z... then yes.. its going to irritate me. Because its simply not true. We all have different things that we value. We all grow up differently. Perhaps dollar store food isn't the most nutritional, but you know.. its food. Her children aren't starving. And from what it sounds like, she is appreciative of what she has and she treats it well. There really is no way she's going to totally change that frugalness in her unless somehow her social class changes and she now makes a ton of money. And you know? Even then she still might prefer dollar store food. *shrug* Its a choice. It might not be a popular one on this website, but its still a choice. And one thing I'm tired of seeing, is mothers beating up other mothers for choices. Some choices that aren't even in their control.. like whether they eat organic and have brand new sneakers.

My kids just got their very first pair of brand new sneakers yesterday. And my daughter is almost four years old. She's been wearing her older sisters hand me downs. Optimal? No. But it worked for us, and it wasn't on our high priority list. Housing and electricity topped that. And we don't buy much organic because we cannot afford it. So to read this thread from the OP it certainly seems like I'm being judged along with this woman for not giving my children brand new shoes and not feeding them organic.

Yes, my children know what vegetables are and we eat them. I am as GD as I can be and learning. I CLW tandem. I'm not a perfect mother, but I try my best.

I realize the OP doesn't want to hear anything from me because I don't agree with everything she wrote, but I'm responding because people keep quoting my post.

Yes, I have been judged for being poor. And I am continually judged for it every day.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Oh, Lord have mercy!!!

I feel like this thread is no longer about my situation because it is resembling it less and less. Now it's a thread about poor people and whether I, or anyone else are judging them. Funny since we have spent our childhoods well below the poverty line and most of our adulthood below it as well.

My niece's parenting skills have little to do with poverty - the only thing that may be connected is that she has had few resources, including education.
Her parenting style has more to do with the way she was raised herself and not having any other adult to show her any different. Also it has to do with her depression which comes from the abuse from her mother and aunt and abandonment by her father.

What is hard for me is that she calls her kids retards and stupid, threatens to hit them, tells them she doesn't love them when they piss her off, that she can't stand to be around them, that she is going to leave if they don't act right, and that she can't stand to look at them. When they tell her they love her she says "no you don't" or "get away from me".
She used to hit them before they moved here. How I know this is because she threatens it in such a way that you know she has done it and also she has commented that she can't do it in our house. Also, the 5 yr told DH and I at the dinner table that when her mom hits her she dreams of putting her mom in a fire grill.

For the love of god, if I hear one more person say that I shouldn't judge because everyone has their own "style" of parenting - geez!
I'm pretty sure these are bad things under any circumstances.

*IT IS NOT ABOUT THE FOOD OR THE LACK OF OUTDOOR TIME OR ANYTHING ELSE* Yes I think that these things matter but if she never changed any of it but learned to show her kids how much she loves them and stopped taking out her frustrations on them - well, I'd be happy as pie.

As someone else said the food and the clothes, etc. are just the little things comparatively - I agree, but it's nice if you can have that too.

Nature, I could give a rat's a** what clothes these kids wear as long as they have them. My child rarely has a new item of clothing and most everything we own comes from the thrift store. Is it a problem when someone can not afford any shoes for their kids? Yes. This doesn't mean I am judging them - this just means that we need to figure out a way to meet the kids needs. It's not judgement to state that it's a problem and that we need to figure out how to better the situation. Again, this is why my niece is here - because she knows she has more opportunites for herself and her kids.

Also, about this getting her not to buy dollar store food - I am not looking to get her to stop doing that. Being frugal is a skill and even someone with a ton of money can benefit from this skill. What I would like to see is for her to have the *OPPORTUNITY* To buy any dang food she wants. I don't care what she buys but it would be nice if she had the CHOICE to deviate from what she now has no choice about - no matter what that might be.

Really, I am not looking to debate how people with money judge people in poverty. I already know this happens all the time, but that wasn't the purpose of this thread.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
i didn't mean to imply that you were looking down on her. But it is so hard to hand that EBT card or WIC voucher over the first time. Or to sheepishly say "we don't have insurance. we are on medicaid" right there in front of everyone. what i was saying is that it helps to have someone there to be proud of you instead of ashamed or judgmental. Someone who will go sign up with you and hold her head high as she walks into the office so you can too. A cheerleader of sorts. So many people do look down on others who have assistance. How much easier would it be to cross that line if someone was holding your hand and knowing how hard it was could be down right proud of you for sucking it up, swallowing your pride and doing what needs to be done. The hardest part for me was using that stuff for the first time. If I had just had a friend with me who had gotten over it already







It would have been much easier. Thats what I meant. It would probably help her be more comfortable with it if she could use it around people she looked up to and saw for certain they weren't embarrassed to be seen with her while she used it etc . . . I am not saying you are embarrassed but it helps sometimes to know that people aren't embarrassed to be associated with us and our vouchers you know. To see someone right there and know, really know that they just don't think it is a big deal. and to know at least one person isn't judging you.


I understand what you are saying and I know it is difficult for a lot of people. My niece has no shame in getting help from the county and state and neither do I...and she knows this.

The first time I got any assistance I felt like a queen and was so grateful. When I was a kid my dad had this thing about not accepting help from the government so we would literally go without food, or eat soup all the time rather than get free food. My mother wanted to get stuff for us kids but my dad would never hear of it. We would have qualified for a lot of things, but he had "his pride". I suppose if I was scamming the system or something I would feel some shame or feel funny about getting help. I know I need the help and if I qualify for it then I am happy to have it.

I do remember the embarrassment when I was 16 (my parents divorced when I was 15) and when I was hungry my mom would hand me the food stamps and tell me to go get something to eat. I was always worried someone from school would see me at the store. Back then it was paper food stamps so you couldn't just scan your EBT card and pretend it was a credit card (if you were worried about it).

As an adult though I have always felt like if I qualified and I needed it then I was happy to have it and I never cared who knew it. I realize this isn't everyone's situation.

Just trust me when I say that I support my niece in applying and recieving anything she can qualify for and she is well aware that this is the case.

thanks for the feedback


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## waiting4it2snow (Apr 3, 2005)

Dear Judejude,

I have been reading all the posts to this thread. I haven't commented because I honestly am not sure what advice I could possibly give. If I were in your situation, I would have a very difficult time not going crazy every time she verbally abused her kids. You said both you and your husband came from backgrounds like that, and I think when you have lived through it as a child, you put yourself in the place of the children and just feel terrible that you can't stop it for their sake.

Any positive change forward takes time, it just does. She has already made so many positive changes forward - you and your husband's support IS making a huge difference for her and her kids, even if you feel like it isn't enough or isn't fast enough.

What else can you guys do? She sounds so self-reliant. I think that after a bit more time goes by, and she really feels secure in your love and fully comfortable with you, maybe you could talk to her about the words she uses with her kids ... (it sounds to me, out of all the situations you mentioned, this is really the only serious one that is also the most difficult to influence - a change this area really has to be deliberate on her part)... perhaps you could ask her if her mother ever told her that she didn't love her or wished she had never been born, or whatever else you have heard her say to her kids... if you can get her to admit that the way she was treated hurt her emotionally, then maybe she might be willing to participate in counseling. In trying to get her to consider it, make it clear that she can shop around for a counselor she feels comfortable with - that she has the power to decide what is right for her or not... but it does sound like she is some time away from that.

Maybe even look around the community for group therapy for adult survivors of abuse and see if she would like to go with you sometime - your childhood situation may not be exactly the same as hers, but exposing her to any kind of therapy environment might begin a self-reflection process that might help precipitate healing - she needs to begin this process in order to pull back and really see her own behavior towards her children... she might be willing to go with you to something if you talk about how it is something you need to do for you... not trying to make it all sneaky, but maybe if she sees it as something you would do, that she wouldn't be so against it for herself...

I don't know, I hope that helps.

Just keep staying positive and loving and make sure to do something for yourself that helps you to stay in that place...


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting4it2snow* 
Dear Judejude,

*I have been reading all the posts to this thread. I haven't commented because I honestly am not sure what advice I could possibly give. If I were in your situation, I would have a very difficult time not going crazy every time she verbally abused her kids. You said both you and your husband came from backgrounds like that, and I think when you have lived through it as a child, you put yourself in the place of the children and just feel terrible that you can't stop it for their sake.
*

This is true and dh and I have done way better than I would have ever thought under these circumstances. DH speaks up and tells her not to say that stuff and I comment in other ways, like about her being stressed and get her talking about that.....which not only distracts her from the kids but shows her that I give a crap.
We didn't know it would be like this when she came and that doesn't mean we are sorry she is here or that we love her less - I'm just saying this took me off guard...although I did know it would be somewhat difficult in some way.

*Any positive change forward takes time, it just does. She has already made so many positive changes forward - you and your husband's support IS making a huge difference for her and her kids, even if you feel like it isn't enough or isn't fast enough.
*
I really feel like she does want to change because how else would she have put forth so much effort in just a month. She treats the kids so much better than when she first came. Today I also saw her watching me when I was talking to her 3 yr old about hitting and I do have to say that I have been noticing her actually talking to the kids about some stuff instead of just yelling for them to shut up or whatever. I don't know how much she wants to change, but she does want to to some degree.

Also, she told me when she came that she was used to trying to make the kids be quiet and not leave any toys around. Apparently her mom nagged her all the time about the kids and so she was always on her kids about everything to appease her mother. The first few days she was here she screamed at the kids constantly about the kids picking up after themselves and I thought I could go crazy. She also was all about them sitting quietly and playing at all times. When dh told her not to stress herself out so much and that it didn't matter if the house was messy and toys were all over the living room all day. She seemed kind of shocked and smiled and seemed relieved. She said she had to be on her kids all the time to be quiet, etc. She has loosened up about a lot of things. She used to not allow the kids to get dirty either so there were a ton of things she wouldn't let the kids do. We took a walk a few days after she was here and dd and our friends kids started shedding their clothes and jumping in the shallow part of the lake when we walked by. I could tell she was really freaked out. My friend who has a 3 yr old took all of his clothes off and had him go naked, the rest of the kids went in in their clothes. She started off telling them to only go into their knees and not get wet, but dh talked her into letting them jump in. I could tell she was stressed and she even said it was freakin' her out. The kids had so much fun and we put all their clothes in the washer when we got home. Since then she has allowed them to get their clothes wet and play more "normally (in my opinion) without threatening them that they will have to go without clothes if they get them dirty.

I think that the environment they were in before was hard on everyone and so it will take some time for them all to relax and not be stressed about every little thing. If the kids make a mess we help them clean it up - no big deal. When we can't find the floor in the living room or dd can't get through in her wheelchair we help the kids clean it up. I think it is a relief to my niece to not be under so much pressure with the kids. I let the kids run through the house screaming and playing "monster" most of the day actually. It rarely bothers me. When it starts wearing on me I send them outside. We told our niece that we loved having lots of kids around and that we never stressed about them. We told her this before she came, but I could tell she was happy to see what that really looked like IRL and that we weren't just saying that.

Quote:

What else can you guys do? She sounds so self-reliant. I think that after a bit more time goes by, and she really feels secure in your love and fully comfortable with you, maybe you could talk to her about the words she uses with her kids ... (it sounds to me, out of all the situations you mentioned, this is really the only serious one that is also the most difficult to influence - a change this area really has to be deliberate on her part)... perhaps you could ask her if her mother ever told her that she didn't love her or wished she had never been born, or whatever else you have heard her say to her kids... if you can get her to admit that the way she was treated hurt her emotionally, then maybe she might be willing to participate in counseling. In trying to get her to consider it, make it clear that she can shop around for a counselor she feels comfortable with - that she has the power to decide what is right for her or not... but it does sound like she is some time away from that.
I can see that in the future I will be able to talk to her about this stuff. She loves her mother (of course) but she has made little comments here and there that let you know that she knows her mother did not do everything "right". The best thing about this is that since I was raised by a depressed, abusive mother I can talk about myself and maybe sometime she will feel like she can talk to me. She has only been here a month so we have a lot of time for that.

We have already talked to her about counseling and that just because you saw someone you didn't like once doesn't mean you couldn't find someone that would really help and who you liked. We talked about it in the context of our own experiences.

Quote:

Maybe even look around the community for group therapy for adult survivors of abuse and see if she would like to go with you sometime - your childhood situation may not be exactly the same as hers, but exposing her to any kind of therapy environment might begin a self-reflection process that might help precipitate healing - she needs to begin this process in order to pull back and really see her own behavior towards her children... she might be willing to go with you to something if you talk about how it is something you need to do for you... not trying to make it all sneaky, but maybe if she sees it as something you would do, that she wouldn't be so against it for herself...




This could be possible in the future I'm sure.


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## tashaharney (Feb 19, 2007)

wow, judejude, you are doing a great and wonderful thing.

the only real advice i have to give is that when you are trying to talk to her about GD that, since you come from a similar background, you can frame things in that. something like, 'man i remember when i was growing up and my mom would get so mad at me. she would tell me things like she wished i'd never been born. (or hit me or whatever) when i had my daughter i swore to myself i'd never do things like that. its hard but every day i make the effort and try really hard to listen to myself.' mention something about how when you don't keep your temper that you make sure to apologize and explain to your LO what happened, yk?

not like in a preachy way but in a 'sometimes its so hard to be a mom' way, kwim?

coming from a rather abusive and poor home myself, what it really took for me was to re-direct my anger into breaking the cycle. and, of course, seeing that there *are* other ways to live, which you are showing her.

keep it up, stay strong and kind as you are, and give that love. sounds like you have lots of it to give.


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## judejude (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tashaharney* 
the only real advice i have to give is that when you are trying to talk to her about GD that, since you come from a similar background, you can frame things in that. something like, 'man i remember when i was growing up and my mom would get so mad at me. she would tell me things like she wished i'd never been born. (or hit me or whatever) when i had my daughter i swore to myself i'd never do things like that. its hard but every day i make the effort and try really hard to listen to myself.' mention something about how when you don't keep your temper that you make sure to apologize and explain to your LO what happened, yk?

not like in a preachy way but in a 'sometimes its so hard to be a mom' way, kwim?



good advice- thank you


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

You are awesome!! What a wonderful you are doing.
If she signed up for WIC, they usually have really basic food education. I remember watching a video with a woman who had fruit on her head and it was talking about the imoprtance of five fruits and vegetables a day. That might be a helpful message for her.
Are you ding any of the meal prep and are she and her kids eating foods you make? That could be a good start.
How about this:
"When I was a young mother, I had no idea about nutrition or how to cook. I would have loved to have someone to show me the ropes. Would you like me to show you some of my favorite, easy, low cost meals?" Then if she is open to it, you and she could go to the dollar store and shop together. You could gather up some of the 2 for a dollar cans of tomatoes and show her how to make a simple spaghetti sauce. Or get tuna, canned green beans, rice, and corn and make a casserole. If you help her make meals from the dollar store that are easy, maybe the idea won't be so intimidating.

Do you think she has a problem with literacy?
I would also keep talking to her about her depression and recommend she go and see someone. She could be prescribed different medications if she didn't like the one she was on.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I couldn't read the OP and not reply, but I only just skimmed the rest of the replies... so forgive me if this has been said already.

I came from an abusive, ignorant background in many respects. I had no concept of terminology like gentle discpline and attachment parenting... I just instinctively knew that it's wrong to allow anger to control the body, commiting violence upon the defenseless, and that the more I could bond with and be aware of my child, more likely, the better for her.

I took some classes. Just out of curiosity... WOW!

What about offering to join a class in GD with her? What about asking her to take a class in constructive communication with you? Maybe doing it together would relieve some of her feelings of insecurity and begin giving her a foundation of knowledge. Just KNOWING about gentle methods and WHY they work is the best deterrant to abusive tendancies, sometimes.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
How about this:
"When I was a young mother, I had no idea about nutrition or how to cook. I would have loved to have someone to show me the ropes. Would you like me to show you some of my favorite, easy, low cost meals?" Then if she is open to it, you and she could go to the dollar store and shop together. You could gather up some of the 2 for a dollar cans of tomatoes and show her how to make a simple spaghetti sauce. Or get tuna, canned green beans, rice, and corn and make a casserole. If you help her make meals from the dollar store that are easy, maybe the idea won't be so intimidating.


This is a wonderful idea!! Its helping her to make things more nutritious without totally telling her that her low cost foods suck.







I know if someone approached it this way with me, I'd be much more receptive to baby steps of change.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Anybody can be called Mom. You don't even require XX DNA anymore.

But not everyone actually is a Mom. So while the OP might not say that, I will. As of today, yes she is a Better Mom than the niece.

The niece can DO better, and then she will be a better Mom.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
So, you are are a better mom than her?

Basically, that's what I am taking away from your post. I know you will say "NO, that's not what I am saying at all" but consider ......


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
Do you think she has a problem with literacy?

Yes, this jumped out at me. She might have little ability to read. She might have undiagnosed visual problems.

My grandma hated to read. She had about a grade 6 education, and was embarassed to read until the day she died.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

It might also be helpful to read up on culture shock. While it's true that your niece hasn't moved to a foreign country, leaving your familiar environment and ending up somewhere radically different (different food, different expectations, different things that are socially accpetable, ect.) is extremely stressful. It might be helpful for *you* and your DH to know the cycle that often happens and to be prepared for it, so you don't misinterpret her anger/depression/unwillingness to leave the comfort zone at certain times as ingratitude or a personal failing on her part.

I wouldn't call her an expatriate to her face, this is not a suggestion for you to help HER do anything, but more of another approach that you and DH can use to understand *her*, know what storms are coming, so that you don't get blindsided as much. It's never how you'd expect in the first place...but it does sound like you kind of expected her to bounce back and right into taking all the opportunites around her and being excited more about that than things that she would have been excited about in 'old mode'. That's not realistic for a lot of people in a foreign/new environment, no matter *what* level of education or smarts they have.

So you are really looking at two adjustments here. hers and yours. You may have handled things differently during your transition, but that doesn't mean that you're good and she's bad or vice versa. There are some pretty interesting sites/books aimed at ex-pat working spouses helping their spouses adjust that you might find interesting, and maybe will help you be less irritated/distressed by her reactions (at least the non-GD issues anyway, I don't expect that you'll be able to stomach those any easier, and that's totally natural).

It's so easy to think "I did it without these bumps she's having, why can't she? It wasn't that hard for me!" But she is a different person and having a completely different experience because of it. I'd expect things to settle down in a bit, but there will likely be more cycles of negativity until her insides get adjusted to the new outside.


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

((((((judejude)))))))))

I'm really pretty appalled at the people who are criticizing you on this thread. It is really clear in your posts how much you and your dh love your niece *and* her kids, and how much you want to support *her* in being the best mom and person that she can be.

I think you are totally on the right track. Just modeling how a *normal* family lives is so important -- showing her that it is okay for kids to play, make noise, get messy etc. I agree w/ pps who have said that you don't really need to bring stuff up, just model things -- GD, cooking veggies etc, and wait for her to ask about them, or just watch as she begins to incorporate -- it sounds like she really is ready to change, she just doesn't even know how good life can be, yk?

And, it is great that you have a similar background (well, not great at all, really, but yk what i mean, right?), so you can just talk to her about how hard it was for *you* to learn new ways to live, new ways to parent, how counseling helped you etc.

I'm sure that she and her kids will benefit from the love in your home, no matter how long they end up staying.

Good luck. You are doing a really great thing, something that most of us wouldn't be able to do. I am a foster parent, but I would find it *extremely* difficult if my fk's mama lived with us!!! Although I truly believe that that is what foster care should offer -- a fostering of the whole family, just like you are providing.

I'm not religious, but the only appropriate sentiment I can think of here is God Bless You!







:







:


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gus'smama* 
((((((judejude)))))))))

I'm really pretty appalled at the people who are criticizing you on this thread. It is really clear in your posts how much you and your dh love your niece *and* her kids, and how much you want to support *her* in being the best mom and person that she can be.

I think you are totally on the right track. Just modeling how a *normal* family lives is so important -- showing her that it is okay for kids to play, make noise, get messy etc. I agree w/ pps who have said that you don't really need to bring stuff up, just model things -- GD, cooking veggies etc, and wait for her to ask about them, or just watch as she begins to incorporate -- it sounds like she really is ready to change, she just doesn't even know how good life can be, yk?

And, it is great that you have a similar background (well, not great at all, really, but yk what i mean, right?), so you can just talk to her about how hard it was for *you* to learn new ways to live, new ways to parent, how counseling helped you etc.

I'm sure that she and her kids will benefit from the love in your home, no matter how long they end up staying.

Good luck. You are doing a really great thing, something that most of us wouldn't be able to do. I am a foster parent, but I would find it *extremely* difficult if my fk's mama lived with us!!! Although I truly believe that that is what foster care should offer -- a fostering of the whole family, just like you are providing.

I'm not religious, but the only appropriate sentiment I can think of here is God Bless You!







:







:

What she said!

Good for you for doing what you're doing. And, fwiw, I took the OP as a vent and a plea for help, *not* a condemnation of her niece! How many of us would take in a whole family as whole-heartedly as judejude has done? I would hesitate, that's for sure!

Obviously, some things in the OP hit nerves with some people. OK, fair enough, but get off judejude's back already!


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

25 years cant be changed over night it is going to be hard for the kids but even harder for her in time she will change everything is new to her this is not the life she is use to with you and your dh showing her how things can be done and the way that she was raised is not the only way things can be done i would tell her that she is free to stay with you and if you allow her to be more up stairs with everyone around till it is their bed time and sending them to bed then she going down when they are sleeping this way they are not being put together alone until she is not as stressed trust me i know what it is like to be a single mother and being tight on money and all other stuff that goes with it and more yes your kids get on every nerve u have every second some can handle it beter then others and from you looking it it looks like the littlest thing sets her off but it is like dominos lined up it just goes from thing to thing to thing until the mom snaps (i know many parents like this when i say snap it is not beat the child but just to the point where they have had enough) give her time give her love show her that there is more to life then what she has been shown for the past 25 years


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

nak

my heart aches for both you and your niece. this is such a trying situation. i have been on both sides of this coin to some extent.
the description you gave of your niece reminds me so much of myself not that long ago (about 4 years). sometimes i would even slip and call ds a name (PITA usually). there were times where i wouldn't read him a book because they were "too long" (i still have nights like this occasionally). it basically all boiled down to my depression. how could i spend time reading and enjoying time with dc when all i could think about was where to get money for <insert necessity here>? or just wishing i could give up on life then feeling even more horrible for thinking it because i had a wonderful son- then he'd ask for a book and i'd yell because i felt horrible. i was yelling at myself in my head and it came out my mouth.

you're a wonderful person for trying to help her. i wish i'd had someone as healthy and helpful.
i think the depression is truly the biggest issue. imo the best way to "attack" it is, as a pp suggested, to increase her confidence & self-esteem by commenting on what she does well, whether it's parenting related or not, and continuing to provide the opportunities to get out of the house both w/ and w/o the kids. as her confidence and esteem grows, along with her "reserves" of me-time, her patience is likely to as well.

thank you for showing me that there are still decent people who are willing to help others (it's been a very bad year)


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't have the time or patience right now to go back and read all the previous posts.

I grew up like your niece. She could very easily be my cousin, or my aunt, or who ever. Like you, I have also distanced myself from my family because we are looking to break some very nasty destructive cycles in our families and don't want t pass on these things to our children.

When I DO go home my family looks at me like I have six heads and horns growing out of my back. When I was home at Christmas it was mentioned that I wasn't disciplining my six month old well enough. They felt that she should be allowed to eat desserts if they were smooth and creamy (think icing, pudding etc...)

They are good loving people, just not the type of influence I want in my life, or for my family. I love them dearly, but distance is key here.

Okay, so on to your situation. Your niece is depressed and needs counseling, and that should be encouraged, and perhaps even forcefully. Tell her that she has to do something if she wants to continue to live with her. You can tell her this will love and respect, and I bet she will be open to that.

As far as taking "pride" in everyday things I'm betting she is ashamed of what she has and is able to provide, compared to what you can provide for your family, so she is taking pride in her thrift. Showing just how far she can strech a dollar. For many people that IS a source of pride. Yet her kids are being taken care of, even if it isn't in the manner you like for your children. I think that to address these issues at this point isn't wise. She needs to deal with the most pressing issue, which is her mental health, and then other things can start to change.

As far as the yelling goes, man. I was abused as a kid, pretty badly, and the yelling for me was the worst. I could handle the physical stuff, but the yelling still haunts me. I encourage you to maybe sit down with her and say that the yelling really bothers you, your kids, and you see it bothering her children also. Maybe she could try and watch it. Demonstrate positive discipline methods and encourage her when she gets around yelling.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

OK, I haven't read anyone else's posts.

I think your niece kicks ass. She's made the core values that a) she wants to provide for her littluns herself, and b) she wants to spend her money on the kids rather than drugs, alcohol or god knows what. It's a start. She's thinking about parenting and how she wants to do it and whilst you may not approve of her shouting, it sounds like she doesn't, either. She's probably feeling truly awkward about having the noise and bustle that inevitably goes with small children in someone else's home and is overparenting (badly) to try not to upset you.
You're doing a fantastic thing opening your hearts and your homes to your niece and her family and welcoming them in. Can you be big enough to take a step back and let go of the value judgements and trust that time will heal the wounds and let them grow as a family?


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
OK, this is complicated so all you that stay with me on this post - bless you









Dh and I come from abusive childhoods and because of that we have had very little contact with our families over the years - some individuals more than others. DH's oldest brother has a few children, of which he has never taken care of. His brother's first wife lives by a Marine base and when dh was stationed there he really got to know his niece and her mom. His niece was a little girl, but she loved him to death and he has been the only person on her dad's side of the family to stay in contact with her. DH has stayed in contact with her over the years and she is now 25. When she was 12 she came and spent a month with us over the summer. It was obvious at this time that she seemed depressed. When we went to pick her up it was obvious that they didn't live a very healthy life (in every sense of the word).

Anyway, his niece has never lived on her own. She has always lived with her mother. His niece has 2 children - 3 & 5. A few months back she called dh and asked if she could come stay with us until she gets her own place. She had talked for the last couple years about getting out of her mom's house. DH said yes with great excitement and I said yes with excitement and caution.

DH talked to her before she came about us not approving of spanking and she gave the impression that she also was against it, although it caused me some concern when she said that she, herself, had only been spanked twice and she deserved it both times









OK, so she has now been here for a month and it has been more than challenging. The first week I thought it was possible that dd and I could end up in the crazy house. DH is at work most of the time so I get to be here all day every day.

My niece yells at her children like you wouldn't believe. She is obviously depressed and even admits to it and I guess she has tried anti-depressants before and she got sick from them and so she gave up on them. IMHO she needs therapy, but anyway...

Her children are lovely if you ask me, but to her they do nothing but drive her nuts at every turn. They're not quiet enough, still enough, or anything else. I'm pretty sure that their breathing annoys her.

I am finding out more and more about how she and the kids have been living and how she, herself, grew up. Her mentality is so far from our own that it is taking some time to really get my head wrapped around it. DH grew up like this, but he went to great lengths to change his life and his experiences, etc.

The things that my niece values tell a lot. She buys the cheapest food you can find and she treats it like gold. We are used to buying organic and eating freely. I buy food at the dollar store because dd likes to "cook" and I don't want her using huge amounts of super expensive organic food if the concotion is not meant for human consumption








My niece buys food at the dollar store to eat. She feels that organic food is a waste of money, etc. She brags about some of her very modest belongings and I try to be excited for her. I bought the kids shoes when they first came because the 3 yr old had no shoes and was wearing his sisters flip flops that were 4 inches too big in the back. The 5 yr old girl had that pair of rubber, worn out flip flops, and a beat up pair of super smelly tennis shoes. The examples like this could go on and on.

She started her new job 10 days ago, which has been a blessing to me. I love having the kids here and it's nice to be on my own with them for half of the day. She has always worked minimum wage jobs and doesn't really show any desire to do more than that. I think her only goals in life are to have enough money to pay the bills and buy clothes for the kids. They all have the bare minimum of everything and are very excited about everything they get.

I have taken her to the movies a couple times and we've also gone to the store without the kids on more than a few occasions. She couldn't believe it when I told her that the kids didn't have to come. Apparently the last movie she was at was 6 months before and she took the kids with her. (She takes them to PG-13 and R rated movies with her)
She can't trust her mom to watch her kids because she will go to bed and leave them to take care of themselves. She's used to getting subsidised child care from the state.
When the kids would get done with day care or pre-school they would be babysat by her younger brother who is now 15 and is in a gang
















I found out about this a couple weeks after she was here. This is one of the reasons she wanted to leave their small southern town and move here. There was talk of a drive by or of people coming to look for her brother right before she left to come here. This is a serious nation wide gang and not your small town variety.

I feel like I am rambling here, but the whole issue is so complex and I feel like I am just scratching the surface here.

Anyway, we are talking about poverty, poor/little education, etc., etc.

Most of dh's other nieces are living quite hard lives similar to this niece, in most ways. He has a couple nieces and nephews who are having a better upbringing, but the majority are in the same boat.
We distanced ourselves from these situations in the past - we were young, hadn't started our own family and were trying to figure out who we were, even though we knew we didn't want to follow in our parents foot steps.

DD is dealing with this better than I would have ever thought. DD has several disabilities - physical and other. She speaks up to my niece and tells her that she is mean to her kids and that she should treat them better, etc., etc.









To be fair, dh has mentioned things to his niece on more than one occasion and she has expressed to both of us that she is trying to do better with the yelling, etc., even though she jokes about it when she says it. She does the best when dh is home, but she does the worst when she goes down to the basement and is alone with them (that's where they are staying). DH and I step in whenever possible to resolve things and although she has commented that we baby them she hasn't said much else about us stepping in. The kids whine and cry a whole lot. When we intervene the kids stop crying immediately and things go much smoother. We never contradict her and the kids don't get their own way - we just pick them up or hug them and talk to them and show we care that they are upset.

This whole situation is very scary to me. I fear for these children, but the last thing I want to do is distance myself from them like we have done with other family members. I feel like we could have had some sort of impact on these other nieces and nephews lives, but we couldn't deal with it at the time. The one thing that is different here (besides that we're older and smarter) is that we do get along with our niece. She treats her kids like crap, but she gets along with us great and does care, especially, about what dh thinks and how we feel about how kids should be treated, etc.

I think the goal is for them to get their own place, although I question how this will happen IRL given her minimum wage jobs and the cost of living being higher here. DH and I have always wanted more kids and still have not ruled out adopting a child out of foster care - in a way this fills part of that void for us. Also, I worry about the kids not being able to be with us as much. I think dh made it clear to her that she would be welcome to live here if she chose to. She is not very outgoing so you don't always know what is going on in her head, so who knows.

I guess I just don't know what to think about all of this and if we are doing the right thing so far. I think it would kill both dh and I to walk away, or slowly drift away from these kids, and dh cares deeply about his niece and I think he's really sad about how "she's turned out". I think he has great empathy for her though since he grew up in the exact same situation and he knows that he could have been just like that if he hadn't enlisted into the Marines and left the small town where he lived.

When I sat and talked and read books with the 5 yr old girl tonight (after her mom and brother were in bed) I just realized more and more how much these kids have missed out on. They don't own any books and although we went to the library their mom refuses to read to them because all the books are too long she says. They don't eat vegetables, unless you count corn. They ask me questions about what certain foods are and although I don't expect them to know what hummus is or pesto, I do expect that a 5 yr old would have seen celery before or would have tried a raw carrot. My niece was surprised to know that her son (3) would not eat the peeling on an apple. The only fruit I've seen her give to them are flourescent apple sauce (literally. that is not a joke), and fruit cocktail type cups in heavy syrup. They don't drink water, and they rarely drink juice. Kool-Aid is the main staple and soda comes next (although I do not have soda in the house).
There are so many questions the kids have about life and nature and everything else. I want to be there for them. When they ask their mom she says she doesn't know or to leave her alone. Also, they have lived in a small town, in poverty, and their experiences have been very few. They get very little exercise as she doesn't want to take them outside. Since they've been here we have been at the lake, at the park, or something else, almost every day. The kids love it! We make their meals as she rarely cooks and when she does dinner usually consists of something you can microwave and it may not be until late at night.

Taking care of these kids is no burden to us at all - seriously. The bigger issue is just about their mother and our responsibilities to our own dd and to ourselves.

OK, anyone who actually read this whole post has a right to give me any feedback they want








What do you all make of this whole situation???

First, God bless you for helping out your niece and her children. It sounds like you are a much needed safety net for this family and that you are generous in both love and resources for them. That's an amazing gift you are giving. Kudos!!!

Second, I'm so glad that it seems to be going well and that the kids are lovely and that you are enjoying your time with them. Wonderful!!! I'm glad you are feeling fulfilled by sharing time with them.

Third, I understand you feel frustrated with your niece's parenting. Honestly, it sounds bad but it doesn't sound horrible. Does that make sense? What I would hope for your niece is that she also feels loved and welcomed in your home and that by seeing your example of loving and gentleness, she will learn. I would suggest you give her as much love as you are giving the little ones, and she probably needs someone to listen to her and that she feels at home with. Does that makes sense? She's probably had some poor role models and learned some bad things, and it will take a while for any new habits to form.

If she likes TV maybe watch Supernanny with her. Seriously. If she's spanking and yelling, Supernanny really helps people move away from those behaviors. It's kind of a fun show and she'll also appreciate how well behaved her kids are by comparison.

I also think that if she has opportunities to relax and get comfortable in her own skin and build confidence in herself she will not need to yell as much.

Lastly, try to be her cheerleader and encourage her and find things to tell her that she's genuinely good at, etc. Compliment her on when the kids are nice.

I think some people are raised to b*tch about their kids all the time. I have a SIL that complains and complains and it's tounge-in-cheek (I think). It drives me a little nuts, honestly. I know it's rough to hear that. I hope that your gentleness and happiness rubs off.

Again, thank you for being such a caring person!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
You are awesome!! What a wonderful you are doing.
If she signed up for WIC, they usually have really basic food education. I remember watching a video with a woman who had fruit on her head and it was talking about the imoprtance of five fruits and vegetables a day. That might be a helpful message for her.
Are you ding any of the meal prep and are she and her kids eating foods you make? That could be a good start.
How about this:
"When I was a young mother, I had no idea about nutrition or how to cook. I would have loved to have someone to show me the ropes. Would you like me to show you some of my favorite, easy, low cost meals?" Then if she is open to it, you and she could go to the dollar store and shop together. You could gather up some of the 2 for a dollar cans of tomatoes and show her how to make a simple spaghetti sauce. Or get tuna, canned green beans, rice, and corn and make a casserole. If you help her make meals from the dollar store that are easy, maybe the idea won't be so intimidating.

Do you think she has a problem with literacy?
I would also keep talking to her about her depression and recommend she go and see someone. She could be prescribed different medications if she didn't like the one she was on.


I love the idea of you two cooking together, first of all she can help you a bit with cooking and cleanup and she'll feel like she's valued for that -- you can help her feel valued by thanking her and complimenting her on the food she prepares -- second, you can talk and bond with each other while cooking, third you can make nutritious easy food that she'll know how to make when she's on her own later, and fourth, you can have family dinners together, which are lovely moments for everyone, and she'll feel more connected and welcomed in your family. Maybe you could try to do this a couple times a week?

If she doesn't like to cook so be it, but you can still cook a family dinner and then just see if she'll get involved in time. Also, its great learning for the kids!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

A few more thoughts.

I went back and read more details and noticed it's been a few months. It sounds like things are actually going quite well overall in that you get along and the kids are doing well, etc.

I think if you think you can handle it, I'd let your niece know that the welcome mat is open to her, and invite her to stay for as long as a year or two or three. Now that would be a huge commitment on your part, but it may be the best thing for your niece and her kids.

Also, that your door would be open to her and her kids if she would leave but have a disaster -- you know, medical emergency, house burns down, etc.

Over time, a few more months, a couple years, you will develop a strong, very positive relationship. She will learn by being around you, and when she builds trust for both of you, she'll ask questions how to do things and for your advice (and letting her ask is so much better than you instructing, you know?)

She's 25. Your DH may worry about how she's turned out but she's still very much a work in progress. Your love and encouragement may have a huge impact on how she's doing at 35 and how the kids are doing 10 years from now too. Seriously, this wonderful gift you are sharing can influence generations.

So, I hope that helps. It may be a little tough because she will need to develop independence and get on her own, but at the same time, if the current situation is mostly good, or more good than bad, no one has to rush to the next step.

I will keep you in my prayers. Best of luck to your family!


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

as to the food, i lived in a shelter w/ my son and we ate ALOT of donated food which was all fat/icky stuff. people wonder why the poor in this country are overweight! when i finally got food stamps other people were AMAZED at how i lost 20 extra lbs. and amazed that i could eat so well on so little money. i think that it might be worth doing some shopping together or asking if she'd like help making a budget or pricing different groceris. it's easy to get lost in a rut of buying at a place that seems like it;s" for you, the poor" and so much of it, for me at least, was psychologcal. you know? it was a major turning pt when i understood how affordable fresh veggies and fruit could be and what i could pair them with and how if i was careful i could even buy the nice cheese as a treat for us at the end of the month. understanding that we _deserved_ to eat well and making that happen w/ food stamps.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judejude* 
What is hard for me is that she calls her kids retards and stupid, threatens to hit them, tells them she doesn't love them when they piss her off, that she can't stand to be around them, that she is going to leave if they don't act right, and that she can't stand to look at them. When they tell her they love her she says "no you don't" or "get away from me".
She used to hit them before they moved here. How I know this is because she threatens it in such a way that you know she has done it and also she has commented that she can't do it in our house. Also, the 5 yr told DH and I at the dinner table that when her mom hits her she dreams of putting her mom in a fire grill.

.


Wow, I imagine it is very, very difficult to be around. Good for you for hanging in there the best you can.

Don't you just know this is what your niece also heard as a child? It's hearbreaking,*but* there is hope!!!

Hugs to you all.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

judejude it's been awhile since we got an update... just wondering how things are going?


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