# If not CIO, then what?



## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Please excuse my ignorance, I'm waiting for "No Cry Sleep Solution" from my library - can't wait any longer - thought I would ask for some advice! We used CIO with DD at the suggestion of her ped - I didn't know any better at the time. We don't want to CIO with DS (6 mos old), but I don't know what to do instead!

DS is going down at night after nursing between 7 and 8 pm. He wakes at 11pm, 2am, 4am and 5:30am (for good). I noticed he really wasn't eating much at any of the awakenings, just using it as a tool to go back to bed. We decided to have DH go in to soothe DS with the exception of the 2am feeding (so 11pm and 4am). For the first few nights, it was going great, DH would pat DS's butt a couple times, and he would go right back to sleep. But lately, he has been fighting going back to sleep, and DH is in there 20+ minutes and I usually have to go in too to comfort DD who shares the bedroom and has awakened from DS's crying. I don't think DS knows how to fall asleep on his own - how do we teach him without CIO?!?! Everyone is exhausted here from not sleeping anymore than 2 hours at a time. My patience is shot, DD is cranky all day, DS wants to nap constantly during the day, and I'm afraid DH is going to fall asleep at the wheel during his 80 mile commute. What do we do? I know that CIO is hurtful for all involved, but at least in 3 nights time, everyone was getting some sleep...


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

He's way too young to fall asleep - or back to sleep - on his own. For that matter, he's too young to determine that he isn't getting necessary nourishment from the night feedings.

My only advice is to look at your expectations. They seem way out of line with how babies actually sleep.

I'm short on time now, but many Mamas here will be able to paint a realistic picture of natural nighttime parenting... Lurk alot.

GL


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## rachelmarie (Mar 21, 2005)

I agree with the pp. Is your intention to have ds sleep through the night? Or to have him only awaken once to nurse? It seems that by trying to get him to go back to sleep without nursing is causing more of a disruption in everyone's sleep than if you just nursed him.

I don't know anything about NCSS, so I can't help you out there. Have you considered co-sleeping with your 6 month old? I have a 9 month old and him waking up 4 times a night is no big deal when I barely wake up to get him latched on. I think we both fall right back to sleep within minutes. Dh doesn't wake up most of the time.

I know it's tough to be tired all day yourself and to also have 2 tired children. Good luck! I hope another mama can give you more advice.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

We co-slept until DS was 4.5 mos old. DH slept on the living room floor because we have a small bed and he is a big guy. I would have continued to co-sleep if it truly were a "family" bed, but with DH out in another room, it wasn't. I don't expect DS to sleep through the night, but at 6 mos old, I figured he could go longer than 1.5 to 2 hours without eating. Like I said, he wasn't eating, he was latching on and sucking till he was asleep. There was no audible swallowing, and the pattern of sucking was a lot different from when he was actually eating (suck suck suck, stop for 30 seconds, suck suck suck, stop for 30 seconds and so on until he was in a deep sleep). Now when I nurse him at 2am only, he is actually nursing well.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
wasn't eating, he was latching on and sucking till he was asleep. There was no audible swallowing, and the pattern of sucking was a lot different from when he was actually eating (suck suck suck, stop for 30 seconds, suck suck suck, stop for 30 seconds and so on until he was in a deep sleep).
.

This is what babies naturally and normally do when they are able.

It's why the AAP recommends using a pacifer at night in the crib to prevent SIDS.

Babies are not supposed to sleep deeply for hours.

I know some perfectly normal children naturally do-- even those in a family bed. But it's not usual, nor is it recommended.

Your baby is completely brilliant- it's societal expectations that need work.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Have you thought about putting the crib in a side-car position next to your bed? It's what worked for us. I just put the crib up next to our bed and removed the side rail. I rolled up some towels lengthwise and stuffed them in the crack between the mattress and the outside rail so it would push the mattress up flush with our bed. That way we could co-sleep but we all had enough room and I never had to fully wake up to nurse and we all get a good night sleep. Don't know if that would work for you.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

At six months, I don't think I'd stress out too much about a baby learning to fall asleep on his/her own. I understand how you feel, because I've been there. By the time dd was six months, I was so sleep deprived and obsessed with sleep it was insane! I read tons of books (including NCSS...I'll chat about that in a minute) and basically drove myself crazy. At that point, I started rethinking my goals. Instead of my goal being to get dd to do xyz at night, I made my goal that we all got sleep. I need sleep to function, as does my dh and my dd. I stopped worrying about nursing to sleep and got more flexible about where we were sleeping.

I like NCSS because Pantley does talk about "normal" infant sleep patterns (I quote normal because I think sleep patterns probably vary quite widely among babies!). She does give some good ideas on things you can do if you absolutely feel like you need to do some teaching how to fall asleep, etc. Basically you make changes very gradually over a period of weeks or months. Had I actually followed through (which is sooooo hard when you're tired...) I think some of the ideas would have worked, at least in the short term. I say that because as babies grow and learn new skills, get teeth, experience separation anxiety, etc, that stuff causes night waking. That's the ugly little secret of CIO as I understand it...you don't sleep train for a few days and then it's all over forever. You have to retrain every time babies go through developmental changes and meet milestones, or even if you go on a trip and mess up your routine! Mainstreamers don't talk about that, though, do they?? (I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here...just trying to be honest...I apologize if I'm offending anyone...)

It sounds though that you may be just about at the end of your rope? It also helped me to understand why babies wake at night. I found some good stuff at kellymom.com about baby sleep that helped me to understand that night waking happens, and that babies will sleep longer when they are developmentally ready to do so. FWIW, my dd is 10.5 months and doesn't sleep through the night. We've had our ups and downs. She's working on some teeth right now and it's making her cranky during the day and causing some serious waking during the night. But this too shall pass!

I don't know if that helps. Feel free to pm me if you want to ask any more questions about NCSS.

Take care,
Sheri
Reese (12-22-04)


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Becky - Unfortunately, our bedroom is too small for a crib, or a mattress on the floor for that matter. Our 2 bedroom house is rediculously small. I wish it weren't so, but that's our reality.

Sherri - Thanks for your words of encouragement. I AM at the end of my rope. Last night, I slept an hour, then 2 hours, then an hour and a half - for a whopping total of 4.5 hours of sleep! Yippee! I'm so short with everyone I come into contact with, which is out of character for me. And I am seriously concerned about DH driving so much during the day on so little sleep. Maybe I will just continue with nursing him every 2 hours so at least DH can get some sleep. I just thought we were on the right path when DS went right back to sleep after 10 seconds of butt pats from DH. I just don't know how much longer I can do this. I put the milk in the cupboard, lock myself out of the house, forget my purse, forget where I park, lose things - you get the picture.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
My only advice is to look at your expectations. They seem way out of line with how babies actually sleep.



I totally agree. What you have described is totally appropriate for a 6 month old - he is at a time where most babies are going through a major growth spurt so you will see the frequency of nursing go WAY UP for ahile. It will calm down eventually.

Plus you mentioned that he wakes up at 11 - have you ever tired doing a "dream feed" or nursing him right before you go to sleep & not having him wake all the way up? That gave me a jump on a few hours sleep when my dd was that age. If you could figure out a way to make co-cleeping work (bigger bed or just deal w/ DH sleeping elsewhere temporarily) you would probably all get more sleep. My DD still rouses a little bit to nurse some night but none of us really wake up from it.

Shame on your Dr!! If he isn't familiar w/ breastfeeding issues (which it would seem he isn't) he should have referred you to La Leche League or a lactation consultant.

Good luck!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
Becky - Unfortunately, our bedroom is too small for a crib, or a mattress on the floor for that matter. Our 2 bedroom house is rediculously small. I wish it weren't so, but that's our reality.
.


I think most of the world has small living quarters. I am nost sure this is a reason to put babies alone in a different part of the house.

Is there a reason your dh can't continue sleeping elsewhere for a little bit while you tend to the normal and natural needs of your infant for a bit longer?


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Yes I know the small space thing - we are in a 1 bedroom apartment. I remember one of my friends didn't think she could fit a crib in either but she moved out some dressers and end tables and then was able to - basically the room consisted of a bed and a crib - the removed furniture went where the crib had been in another bedroom. Just an idea.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would find a way to co-sleep. The waking is normal. The nursing is normal. But it's no big deal when they're next to you.

-Angela


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I think most of the world has small living quarters. I am nost sure this is a reason to put babies alone in a different part of the house.

Is there a reason your dh can't continue sleeping elsewhere for a little bit while you tend to the normal and natural needs of your infant for a bit longer?

Not only that- but most people DO cosleep because of small living spaces! :LOL

This was what I was going to suggest, too. A 6 month old is really way too young to sleep through the night. (Yes, some do naturally but that's not what we're dealing with) DH is an adult and can make changes MUCH easier than a 6 month old. Maybe if dh would go sleep elsewhere until baby didn't need mama so much in the middle of the night- everyone would sleep better. You can continue to wake up when dc does and nurse back to sleep. No one but you will stir







You can also think about moving your other dc to the family bed and give your dh her bed until things settle down.


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## ayme371 (Jan 5, 2005)

Before having my ds I really didn't know what co sleeping was. We just ended up doing it because I would just fall asleep while nursing. A friend then gave me The Baby Book, by Dr Sears and I learned that tere was a name for what I was doing and that it was perfectly normal. I still got some pressure from others but still did what was best for ds and I. He still sleeps with me at 19 months and wakes to nurse. We hardly wake at all and get a great night sleep. Dr Sears and mcd have really helped me learn so much. Lots of lurking here.


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## mskgandn (Jun 3, 2005)

In NCSS, one of her techniques is to use the "Pantley Pull-off" to get the babe used to being taken off the breast. Gradually, you do the pull-off earlier and earlier during the nursing until the babe can get used to coming off the breast before being totally asleep. I would suggest you start there, since you mention that your ds doesn't seem to be actually swallowing during his suck-to-sleep time. It's a long process, so my other advice would be to talk to dh and delay his return to the bed (if you both feel uncomfortable sharing the bed with your ds). My husband is currently sleeping in the guest room with our two dogs and we all get a lot more sleep due to being flexible about our sleeping arrangement. We figure that we've been sleeping together for 10 years, so taking one year to ensure better sleep for us all isn't such a big deal, since we plan to be together for many more decades.

Really, I think one of the biggest challenges in dealing with infant sleep and not doing COI is to realize that we as adults should be the ones to modify our habits, not expect our babies to be mini-adults.

Since you are still waiting for your copy of NCSS, you can read a bunch of excerpts from the book at www.pantley.com. Here is the link for the Pantley Pull-off. Keep in mind though, that NCSS is a long-term plan...not a 3 night solution.

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/con.../frequentw.htm

Hope this helps,
mskgandn


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I'll just say it - we are no longer going to co-sleep. I'm so jealous of people that have the room and personalities to do it, but it just wasn't working for us for several reasons: DH is 6'4" and was sleeping on a flimsy blow-up camping mattress on the living room floor. He was uncomfortable to say the least. He will not fit into DD's bed - we tried, and it was worse than the floor. Crib will not fit into our room, if we move the bed over to accomodate the crib, we will be unable to open the closet doors. We have no other furniture in there to move out - there is no room for it, we installed a built-in closet for this exact reason. Even when DS was in bed with me - I wasn't sleeping much. He quite literally was latched on from the time I snuck in bed at 10:30pm till 6am. I was so sore from laying on my side that I ended up at the chiropractor's office more than once. So not only was I sleep-deprived, but in physical pain. We tried for almost 5 months - it didn't work for us. I'm a little peeved that I feel the need to apologize for it.

Please understand - I don't expect DS to sleep through the night. I never said that - but I thought nursing every 1.5 to 2 hours at 6 mos was a little much. Guess I was wrong - good to know at least.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

Babies get about 25 to 30% of their nutrition at night and even if he doesn't nurse for a long time that doesn't mean that he isn't getting a lot of milk, he is probably more efficient at nursing during that time and your milk is more plentiful towards the early morning so it doesn't take as long to get enough. Having said that though, he may waking up because he is cold and putting him in bed in a sleeper with feet and then covering him up may keep him warm and help him sleep longer. If you can afford it a futon in his room may be a good investment because you can lay on it and nurse him and maybe fall asleep on it if you are really tired, that way you all get the sleep you need. I understand that many families view the husbands need for a sleeping partner as more important than the child's but maybe you could sleep half the night with your husband and then if you fall asleep nursing your child on the futon he will not be so jealous. The baby is the smaller and more needy one and your husband is probably old enough to understand this. Besides if you are tired from lack of sleep you are probably going to be to tired for action with your husband so sleeping with the baby in a seperate bed may help your patience and sex life.


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## mskgandn (Jun 3, 2005)

addiesmom said:


> I'll just say it - we are no longer going to co-sleep. <snip> I'm a little peeved that I feel the need to apologize for it.
> 
> 
> > No need to apologize. I can only speak for myself, but I think I misunderstood your original post. You said that you would keep cosleeping if you and your family could do a true family bed. So I got the impression that co-sleeping was something you still desired to do. I think that the pps are just trying to give you some ideas on how to change your perspective or habits to accomodate your dc's waking and continue co-sleeping.
> ...


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Maybe putting dd in bed with dad and you take dds bed for a little bit would be a help?


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Affording the futon wouldn't be the issue - again, it is the space. The kids room is 9x10 and there is hardly room for the crib, my daughter's bed and a clothes dresser. My room is even smaller.

Please please please understand that I am not talking about "sleeping through the night". I don't expect him to do that. I just thought he was old enough to go several hours before waking to eat again. Currently, he is waking, nursing for 1/2 hour or so until he is in a deep sleep again, then wakes after sleeping about an hour and a half, sometimes 2 hours (although, sometimes just an hour). From what I am gathering from PPs, this is completely normal, so I guess I just have to adjust my expectations and accept that he needs to eat 5-6 times between the hours of 8pm and 6am. My original thought was that he is a light sleeper and can't put himself to sleep if the slightest thing wakes him (ex: if I put him in his crib before he is in a deep sleep, he will stir and start to fuss and cry - so I have to nurse him for another stint before he falls back to sleep), I guess I was wrong.


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## womama (Mar 14, 2005)

I just wanted to say I was in your shoes only a few months ago. I felt insane form the lack of sleep and couldn't take it any more. Nothing was working and we couldn't bear to do CIO. So we just stuck through it and around 9 months, dp began putting him to sleep. He would be in charge for 6 hours. After that ds slept so much better. He began being able to put himself back to sleep-most of the time-and sleep for longer stretches.

I just hope you can hang in there until your babe is a little older. I bet it will get easier to soothe him to sleep besides nursing.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

When my twins were between 5 and 6 months they started waking hourly. For 3 weeks I got no sleep. I had been rotating cosleeping with them but it wasnt working out. So this is when we stopped cosleeping.
But I agree with the PP that states that it is our habits and expectatoins that need to change, while the baby is allowed to mature at his own pace.
When I get as sleep deprived as you describe (and I have, many many times. Including falling asleep at teh wheel at least once) I arrange a "sleep day" for mommy. What that means is that on Dh's day off. (Saturday in our house) DH takes care of the children and only brings the infant in to me when he or she has to nurse (really has to) and I sleep until I am rested. Once it took a Saturday and a Sunday for me to get caught up. But I was able to start out on Monday fully well rested and able to face several nights of 3-4 hours total sleep before becoming chronically sleep deprived again.

I also want to add, 6 months is a very common time for frequent night waking. Many babies who slept better at 4 months do start waking hourly at 6 months. SO it is actually not that he should be able to sleep longer by 6 months. But that even if he had been able to, for whatever reason right now he is not.

After you have caught up on your sleep you will be able to see the situation much more clearly and perhaps even see more possible solutions.
Good luck
Joline


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
Please understand - I don't expect DS to sleep through the night. I never said that - but I thought nursing every 1.5 to 2 hours at 6 mos was a little much. Guess I was wrong - good to know at least.


I hope you haven't been to discouraged by the responses. Co-sleeping is ideal for many reasons, but obviously it isn't going to work for every family. It seemed like in your original post that you were hoping that someone would respond & say that cio is ok if that's what works for you - I hope I'm wrong, but I do know that desparate feeling of being so exhausted that I wanted some one to tell me it was ok to do that - even though I knew it was WRONG! And I got through it & it was tough, but it didn't last forever!

I hope you are able to get some rest (I don't remember if you mentioned whether you SAH or not) maybe during the day when he is napping? And that you & your husband get to spend some special time together - sometime it was a little break or something special that gave me the boost I needed to get through those no sleep months!







In the big scheme of things- it is such a short time that a few years from now you will barely remember how tired you were!! Good luck & I hope you find some ways to get through it & get rested


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Hi Kate - I wasn't looking for someone to tell me that CIO was okay, I was hoping someone would have some suggestions of how either I, or DH, could soothe DS back to sleep without nursing, because the nursing every 1-2 hours was taking a toll on me.

As for napping when he naps - I would, but DD, who is 3, no longer naps.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
Hi Kate - I wasn't looking for someone to tell me that CIO was okay, I was hoping someone would have some suggestions of how either I, or DH, could soothe DS back to sleep without nursing, because the nursing every 1-2 hours was taking a toll on me.

As for napping when he naps - I would, but DD, who is 3, no longer naps.

Ah, I see. Well, I know it's exhausting, but @ 6 mths - that really is what he needs to do. Hang in there!!!


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

please dont be discouraged by some of the responses! i think people get a little defensive here because it seems like the entire world is judging us for not using CIO, and its lalmost an instictive response for some of us to get a little defensive. or at least to sound that way in their posts (you can never really judge tone on a message board lol). ANYWAY- i totally hear you. it sucks waking up 100 times a night. its miserable and it messes with your daytime life.

NCSS was too involved for me when im tired. i have gone through periods of utter despair since ds was born, as well as periods of acceptance and periods of gratitude when it seemed he was waking less, or at least nursing for shorter periods. i HATE nightime marathon nursings.

i WISH i knew a way to gently help babies self soothe themselves to sleep. the only suggestion i could think of for you was to buy 2 twin mattreses, and put dh on a twin in dd room and yourself on a twin in your room with the baby in the crib- that way you are in close enough proximity that you dont have to trudge down the hall all night. and oh yea the pantley pull off does work wonders in the long term.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

homemademomma said:


> please dont be discouraged by some of the responses! i think people get a little defensive here because it seems like the entire world is judging us for not using CIO, and its lalmost an instictive response for some of us to get a little defensive. or at least to sound that way in their posts (you can never really judge tone on a message board lol). ANYWAY- i totally hear you. it sucks waking up 100 times a night. its miserable and it messes with your daytime life./QUOTE]
> 
> Thank you for your warm response!
> 
> ...


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Just when you think your child will never sleep again, they change and sleep fine. This stage will pass.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

6mos sucks. did for DS...all of our previous strategies just stopped working. stayed that way until around 7mos or so. 6mos is just a notoriously HORRIBLE time for sleeping. could he be teething?


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## JustVanessa (Sep 7, 2005)

Oh mamma








My ds is 6 months and this is his sleep schedule down at 8, up at 9, up at 11, up at 12:30, up at 2, up at 3, up at 4:30 and up at 6 for the day. This has been going on for a week now. So needless to say I feel your pain. I too have been having a rough go of it but I try to keep in mind that ds has started solid food, learned to sit, learned to roll back to front, learned to play peek a boo by himself, and is working on crawling....ALL this week!!!! No wonder his sleep is wonky...his whole little world is wonky right now. I don't co sleep with my son and I definately don't let him cry it out either. I get up, go to the couch, feed him till he is back alseep and put him back in his bed. The nights are very long. You CAN get through this. This is normal for your babe....he will get over it, don't worry, he won't be 19 and getting up in the middle of the night








Hope my story helps, try to keep your spirits up!
Vanessa


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Isn't this forum anti-CIO? Just checking. I've never heard anyone advocating CIO- in fact- I thought that was against the rules.

Oh and also... a 6 month old who needs night nursing isn't high needs.

ETA: To the OP- you're doing great. You'll get through this and so will your babe. I struggle with my 18 month old but I know it's in my child's best interest to answer his needs until he can answer his own and that only comes in time and with age. Hopefully you'll get some good catch up sleep soon!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)




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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Could you set up a room with toys for your dd and nothing dangerous, then nap or at least doze with ds in the same room during the day? Even if it's only a little extra sleep, it's something.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isis*
Isn't this forum anti-CIO? Just checking. I've never heard anyone advocating CIO- in fact- I thought that was against the rules.

Ummm - yeah. Not only that but it's so so sad when the babies get to the point where they give up. It doesn't "work". Babies don't learn to put themselves to sleep by CIO, they simply give up and give in. At 27, I still have a hard time falling asleep because I was made to CIO. I know I shouldn't even respond to this thread tangent, but at 6 months pregnant, I'm extremely sensitive to this kind of crap right now. I'm very very sorry for your depression, but I really want to suggest you do some further reading into this. The fact that it sounds like you're doing it against your instincts and better judgement is probably making your depression worse even if the effect seems subtle.
In regards to the OP, have you tried putting him to bed later at all? I know this might not work, especially if he established his own routine to begin with, but since noone else mentioned it, I thought I'd throw it out there. When I put dd to bed "too early" for her, she tends to have longer and more frequent wakings. Also, sometimes babies wake up because there's noone there (especially since you recently stopped cosleeping this might be a factor) when they shift through the night. I have to (still, at 22 months) surround dd with pillows on all sides to keep her from feeling alone when I'm not in bed with her. Not sure if this would work for you, but at 6 months it shouldn't be a suffocation hazard (although I'd guess it depends on the child). Another thing to look into is allergies - although I realize it's normal for many babies to nightwake frequently, sometimes an allergy can increase frequency and duration of waking. Doing something like eliminating dairy or other potential allergens from your diet for a while *might* make a difference, and I'd say there's no harm in trying it.
As far as naps go - I don't know your 3 year old, but *some* kids at that age are able to understand that mommy needs to sleep and would be willing to sit and read stories during ds' naptime while you sleep. If you haven't tried it, it may be worth a go.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

To the op I hope this thread doesn't get too cluttered up and not be helpful to you. The PP advocating CIO may have kind of derailed things a bit. Sorry - I wouldn't have suggested the whole crib thing in your room if I'd known and definately didn't want to put you on the defensive. Just trying to make suggestions to your situation that might be helpful. Sometimes doing it online means you have to hash out a lot of details that you otherwise wouldn't. Sorry about that!

I would really think about the potential - baby getting cold and teething issues. For my dd teething was a big issue at that age. Also what about white noise to block out any disrupting noises. If you have the dr. sears book there's a list of like 30 potential night waking causes you could rule out. Polyester sleepers can be irritating. If the crib is blown on by a heating vent - it could wake the baby, etc. Have you tried leaving a breastpad or something in the crib for baby to smell and be soothed?


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Oh - and the naps. When I had a migrane I put dd and I in a toddler safe room and closed the door and I napped while she played (she can't open the door). It worked for me at the time. I've also put a quiet video on for her to watch so I could nap when I was just dying. If you could do it when the baby is asleep and put your dd infront of a video you might catch up on some desperately needed sleep.


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## slacker_mom (Mar 30, 2005)

I broke down and bought the NCSS book because I'd been waiting forever to get it from the library, and my brain started to melt....

At that age, my daughter could not sleep for more than 40 minutes without waking up and wanting to nurse again. She alternated between nursing for milk and nursing for comfort. The sooner I let her nurse, the quicker she'd go back to sleep. If I didn't let her nurse, I'd be up with her for hours.

Given the milestones your son will go through in the coming months, I would expect frequent nightwaking to continue for some time, but it will get better eventually.

If you would consider co-rooming for part of the night, maybe the following would work:

Push your bed against the wall, away from the closet. Before you go to sleep, put a pack-n-play in the space between your bed and the closet doors. Get your son out of his room, nurse him to sleep if needed, and put him down in the pack-n-play. Your husband gets the side of the bed closest to the wall, so you can have easier access to your son. When your son starts to wake up, bring him up to the bed to nurse; when he's asleep again, put him back down in the pack-n-play; repeat as needed. You will probably double your sleep. When you are all up for the day, fold up the pack-n-play and slide it under the bed or into a corner; and you have access to your closet again.

You said you had issues with him staying latched on all night - the No Cry Sleep Solution discusses the Pantley Pull-off, which is basically this: As your son dozes off, break the latch. He'll probably latch back on; let him, but then when as he dozes off again, break the latch. Keep letting him latch on, but don't let him just sleep with your nipple in his mouth. Eventually sleep should win out over the need to be latched on. And if you can then put him down into the pack-n-play, you can make yourself comfortable up in your own bed.

Good luck.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Oh boy, 6 months is so young. My DD is 18 months old and still wakes every 1-3 hours to nurse, but because we cosleep, I hardly notice and it feels like I get a full night's sleep.

We didn't start out cosleeping, and while my DD slept through the night in a crib from 2-4 months, she started waking up more at 4 months, and by 6 months, she was waking up within minutes of being laid in her crib. I was, and still am, completely against CIO, so I spent all night nursing and rocking her to sleep, trying to put her in her crib, responding a few minutes later when she woke up. Neither she nor I were getting any sleep. However, the night we started cosleeping, that changed. Yes, the very night. Having a warm body snuggled up to her meant that she slept for several hours, and when she did wake up to nurse, I just latched her on and went back to sleep.

For the sake of your baby's needs, I encourage you to find a way to cosleep. I understand that your room is small, so my recommendation is to take your mattress off its frame, and put the mattress directly on the floor. This makes the mattress seem bigger b/c you can sleep right up to the edge without fear of falling out of bed. If you have the room, I highly recommend putting two mattresses next to each other--even if you have to clear everything else out of the room.

Then, the next step is to babyproof the room--which should be easy since it's so small. Put covers on the outlets, make sure there are no dangerous blind strings, hide all cords. Now, when your baby needs to nap, you can lay on the mattress with the baby, and your toddler can play in a safe room with some quiet toys. Even if you don't nap yourself, you can at least rest quietly while your baby naps. (I use this technique when my DD wakes up too early for my taste.







I close the bedroom doors, drag out her basket of toys, and lay back down on our mattress on the floor while she plays. She will play for a while, crawl to me to nurse for a while, play for a while, and sometimes even come back to bed to sleep more.)


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

Forum guidelines;

Quote:

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate CIO (Crying It Out). Personal preferences for and encouragement of the use of CIO and similar sleep training methods are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about co-sleeping and the family bed
CIO posts will be removed.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mraven721*
Forum guidelines;

CIO posts will be removed.









Thank you


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## bentijackie (May 17, 2005)

Hi-
I totally feel for you and am 'stuck' i the same position. My DS is 18 mo- until he was 1 year I got up every time he cried and nursed him. Some nights it was only 2x and some 6x- when he turned a year I thought I would go insane and tried cosleeping again. (I tried it initally but I was so uncomfortable- numb arms, shooting pains in hips, etc that i couldn't do it). I "half-way" tried to let him cry for 1 night, and i just can't do it. So when he turned 1 year, I tried cosleeping again and it has been wonderful in that I get so much more sleep, and it truly is the best feeling I have ever had. HOWEVER, my DS now nurses MORE THAN EVER (no surprise, i guess, it's so warm and nice and available), and I am still suffering from tingly arms and very sore other body parts. Plus my DH sleeps on the coach several times a week...in short, things are not ideal but I don't know what else to do, except that I know things will change in time. I am not sure if I am going to "push" for those changes or let it happen naturally...i guess it depends on how my DS develops and how desparate I get. I which you the best of luck- this is such a hard thing to figure out. Your baby knows you love him no matter what you do, so do what makes you the best mom and person possible.


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## rozzie'sma (Jul 6, 2005)

Just to defend addiesmom a little. She is not CIO with her current child. This momma says she regrets what she did with her daughter and has come here to learn a different way. I feel it is very inappropriate to chastise her about former behavior when she is looking for information to keep from reverting to her old ways.

Hang in there mama. 6 months is a tough age. Hopefully it will get better soon.


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rozzie'sma*
Just to defend addiesmom a little. She is not CIO with her current child. This momma says she regrets what she did with her daughter and has come here to learn a different way. I feel it is very inappropriate to chastise her about former behavior when she is looking for information to keep from reverting to her old ways.

Hang in there mama. 6 months is a tough age. Hopefully it will get better soon.

I think your confused. The CIO post was removed, my post was in no way directed to Addiesmom.


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## KateMary (Jun 14, 2004)

Addiesmom, I know a lot of people have given you advice on how to make co-sleeping work for you and I wanted to make another suggestion that I have not seen yet because I really think co-sleeping is going to be your solution here.

Can you take your bed apart so its on the floor, and use your crip mattress on the floor next to it so you have more room? The few inches the crib and bed frames take might make the difference for it to all fit. Also, you mentioned your room is smaller than your daughters, can you take the bigger room to put two beds together? I think you mentioned that ds wakes up when you set him in the crib? That happened for me too around that age and I started co-sleeping exclusively and have never used the crib since. I nurse dd to sleep lying down, get her unlatched and sneak away (if its still early in the evening) or roll over and go to sleep (if its the middle of the night).

Also, keep trying to side lying nurse ds. It gets easier. I had to prop a pillow behind my back to keep it straight, bring dc in really close so you are not arching your back to bring breast to him. Put a pillow between your legs to keep your hips even. Get the right size pillow so your neck and shoulders are not scrunched up. And try a burp cloth or cloth diaper under your breast to prop it up. I hated the feeling like my breast was sliding out of dd's mouth when nursing lying down and finally realized I had to prop it to prevent gravity from pulling it out of her mouth. Now nurse/sleeping is so much easier, it takes practice.

Keep us updated!

Oh and can you take the closet doors off so you don't have to open/close them at all? I don't know if the extra bed would block your whole closet or just the doors opening. With my crib mattress idea too (like the pack and play idea earlier) you could prop the crib mattress out of the way during the day if needed.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I really appreciate the time all of you have taken to try to help, but co-sleeping just isn't going to work for us. We tried for over 4 months and it wasn't getting any easier. It wouldn't matter how big the bed was because I could never get DS off the breast anyway. As soon as he fell off or I pulled him off, he would wake up and start nursing again. In those rare occasions that he continued to sleep, as soon as I would turn to get feeling back in my arm, he would wake. I would cough, he would wake. We are both very light sleepers, and we kept each other up all night. I also have a SI joint injury from a car accident, and I ended up in a lot of pain due to not being able to move freely from side to side. I used two pillows behind my back, one under my head, one between my knees, and one to help position DS and it wasn't enough. I had to go back to my chiropractor several times to re-align. I really really wanted this to work, but I wasn't happy, DH wasn't happy and DS wasn't happy. The first night we put DS in his crib, he went right to sleep at 7pm and slept straight through till 1:30 then again till 5am. No crying, no fuss, everyone happy (except when DD woke if she heard DS before I did)

Then 3 weeks ago, DS started waking every hour to couple of hours. Two days later his bottom two teeth pushed through - a-ha, he'll start sleeping better again - no, it's like he's caught in this pattern. Not only am I exhausted, but he is too! He can't be awake more than 30 minutes before he starts looking to nurse and take a nap. He used to enjoy rolling around on the floor playing with toys and practicing to crawl, now I put him down, and he fusses after 5 minutes because he wants to cuddle and sleep. He needs to sleep just as much as I need him to sleep.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I hear how frustrated you are. Co-sleeping can be very different at different ages (even a week or two). Since you're not happy with the way things are now, you might try it again. The worst that will happen is it will be another night or two that you're not happy with.

-Angela


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## Numnumom (Mar 12, 2002)

Hi. I came over here to lurk and saw this post about 6 mo old waking alot. I agree with the posters who gave you some good advice. Babies arent meant to be sleeping alone. Although separate sleeping is the choice of many moms for small babies- if those babies arent sleeping all night, they have to resort to all sorts of tricks to get the baby to do what they want. If you take your cues from baby, he wants your breast. He wants it because it is what he needs. He is not doing anything unusual. He doesnt have the ability to come around to your way of thinking. He needs YOU. After 5 co-sleeping children, I can tell you, children/babies need what they need.
I can tell you what we did. We stopped thinking that our house/apartment had to look a certian way (ie furniture in a certain place) and we did it for the health and well-being of our babies. Our apartment (when we lived in a teensy one) was all beds. No room to walk. Dressers in another bedroom. With babies and co-sleeping and tandem nursing children in the room, there was no crying or waking other family members. Nights were quiet. And still, now- when baby wakes up, I turn and put my breast in the direction of babys face and fall back to sleep. I am well-rested and so is dh. And most importantly, baby is peaceful. He/she doesnt have to cry to get my attention- a few sounds and in the breast goes. I am able to function well the next day because I get enough sleep. And another perk is being able to check your baby at night with a quick look and feel- in case of fever or any other difficulty.

We still are very flexible night and sometimes we have everyone in the bed with us and sometimes just 3. This stage doesnt last as long as one might think as a new mom. They grow up, they go through puberty and they get older. I would say- cherish this time. Yes, its challenging changing old ideas, but when you look at them next to you at night sleeping, you know your love for them is making them peaceful.

Really, in the beginning, its a matter of seeing what you are doing as normal, natural and the absolute best for the children you adore. And also seeing what many other moms are doing (especially at night) as something that just isnt working for you. It probably isnt working for them either and they just dont know what else to do.

Anyway, I felt compelled to answer the post. I have so many friends and neighbors who ask me what I do with my children. They are not like other kids. They are helpful, calm, respect adults and they are good friends. With others and with each other. They dont tease or cause fighting when they are with other kids. Their needs have been respected, so they in turn respect others. Its not becasue Im so speciall and such a special mother. Its really because I learned how to respect their cues. I believe them when they tell me/show me what they need. Its not so difficult.


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## flyjawn (Nov 13, 2004)

addiesmom - i pm'ed you.

i co-slept with my little one for the first 6 months and then we found that she actually preferred her crib. i was more than a little sad but she is so happy in her room and when i would try to co-sleep with her, she'd toss and turn and not sleep deeply at all. i do still bring her to my bed in the early mornings but 90% ofthe time she doesn't fall back asleep - she just talks to me and cuddles me.









i think co-sleeping is a wonderful, beautiful thing but for some people it just doesn't work. if co-sleeping helped my now 9 month old to sleep longer, you'd better believe she'd be in bed with me!

as it is now, our rooms are ajoined and the door is open so she's about 10 feet from me in her own bed. but she still doesn't sleep longer than 3 hours at a time


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
Then 3 weeks ago, DS started waking every hour to couple of hours. Two days later his bottom two teeth pushed through - a-ha, he'll start sleeping better again - no, it's like he's caught in this pattern. Not only am I exhausted, but he is too! He can't be awake more than 30 minutes before he starts looking to nurse and take a nap. He used to enjoy rolling around on the floor playing with toys and practicing to crawl, now I put him down, and he fusses after 5 minutes because he wants to cuddle and sleep. He needs to sleep just as much as I need him to sleep.

Try not to think of it as being "caught in a pattern" this implies that his night waking has no real cause or purpose. And just because you cannot determine the cause does not mean it is there.
I have seen this phase in countless children, all of mine went through it as well as my friends. I have often heard it explained as "teething" or "developmental milestones" maybe baby is getting new teeth. Maybe he is working on crawling and cant sleep. But my dd2 went through the exact same phase and didnt get her first tooth till she was over 1 year and she didnt crawl till she was 9 months old. None of the "obvious" reasons were there. And yet she woke hourly for weeks. Her twin brother who was at a very different place with his motor development was doing the same thing. At this time they both started waking more easily. I could no longer move a sleeping baby without waking him or her. they woke each other easier, when previously I had been able to care for and cosleep with them individually throughout the night.
After my experience and seeing how universal this is, I am starting to believe that something completely under the surface is happennign with babies at this age that is unrelated to teething or motor development. I dont know wht it is. Maybe they have reached a certain level of brain development and understanding where they realize that you are a separate person and it isfrightening for a while until they get used to it. Maybe their brain is just so busy thinking new complex thoughts that sleeping becomes difficult.
I dont know WHY this happens. But it is nothing you did. It isnt a habit or a pattern that has been developed. It just is.
Now you can parent your child with where he IS in mind or you can parent your child with your idea of where he SHOULD BE in mind. If you do the former you will find solutions to your problem that will help you get some sleep, and parent your daughter and still respect his needs. If you do the latter, you will only add to your frustration.
Cosleepign is great for some babies. I am not going to lecture you on co-sleeping. It was at this age that I stopped cosleeping with my twins because I could no longer move them without waking them. If cosleeping does not work for you and your dc, there is a solution out there. It is just a matter of finding it. First I would like you to keep in mind that you can change yourself but you cannot force somebody else to change. So if you are not getting enough sleep, your focus should be on YOUR sleep and not on your ds's. Once you are rested, if your ds still isnt happy you will have a clearer head with which to brainstorm ideas to help him sleep better.
If you work on his sleep before yours, youwill be trying to do a frustrating thing (change somebody else) while being in a frustrating state of mine (overtired and exhausted,) and it likely will not be the best possible solution because at this level of sleep deprivation you might not be able to see all of the possible solutions.
Are you going to bed when he goes to bed? (if not you are putting whatever that activity is ahead of your sleep and it is just as responsible for your sleep deprivation as your ds's waking)
Are you sleeping when you have alternate caregivers? (You may need to spend time with your dh, but sleep needs to come first. How can he enjoy your time together when you are so exhausted and unhappy? You will enjoy each other more after you have rested)
Are you putting your sleep before outings and household chores?

You may not want to try these things because they do not "fix" the problem. And they are not long term solutions. You might not like the idea of going to bed at 7 indefinitely or missnig out on weekends with your DH so you can sleep. But it is NOT indefinite. Whether you help your ds find ways to sleep longer or not, this is a temporary problem. And requires temporary solutions to get your health, strentgh and energy back.

After 3 weeks of no sleep I finally spent a weekend catching up on sleep. I felt better and less tense. The next night my twins woke up twice. And they continued to wake up no more than twice after that (unless they were sick). I did not need to "solve" their sleep problem. It solved itself in short order after I took care of myself.

Good luck. You can get through this. (even without cosleepign or CIO)
Joline


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Addiesmom, if I can ask, is your husband also against CIO? If so, would you consider sleeping w/ your child/ren and having him sleep in the other room until DS's sleep patterns settle down?

Just a suggestion--my 5 mo. old has just started the exact same schedule and boy, does it suck. I personally really don't like the idea of my DH sleeping anywhere but w/ me and babe but he has a stressful job and we need the $ so I can be a SAHM so if we sometimes have to make that sacrifice, so be it. We also use the other room for...







...so it isn't too bad, lol. I can understand if the marathon nursing makes that idea untenable though--I've only been doing it a couple of nights and I've already started joking about my "nips of steel."

Anyway, I feel like we can only do sep. sleeping because DH is on board w/ it. IMO a happy, strong marriage is the foundation for raising happy, strong kids. DH ends up sneaking into bed w/ us in the early AM but he really enjoys being able to sleep. That'll probably be our huge transition--not DS into his own room but getting DH out of his!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Are you going to bed when he goes to bed? (if not you are putting whatever that activity is ahead of your sleep and it is just as responsible for your sleep deprivation as your ds's waking)
Are you sleeping when you have alternate caregivers? (You may need to spend time with your dh, but sleep needs to come first. How can he enjoy your time together when you are so exhausted and unhappy? You will enjoy each other more after you have rested)
Are you putting your sleep before outings and household chores?

I try to get to bed shortly after he is bed, but some things have to get done. By the time DS is asleep, it is 8pm and I need to get DD ready for bed. This has always been a special time for her, and she has been acting out since DS's arrival, so I try to spend special time with her when I can. (She's very much a mommy's girl - doesn't want daddy's help at all) I also have to eat. And this is may be just me, but I have to have a clean kitchen to wake up to - makes my day a little less stressful. The rest of the house - whatever (and believe me, it is WHATEVER, I have had a mountain of clean, unfolded clothes on my living room chair for 2 months now)- but I can't wake up to a sink full of dishes. I usually make it to bed by 9 or 9:30, but then DS is up at 11pm - so I've gotten an hour and a half of sleep before we start the cycle.

I don't have alternate caregivers during the week. DH has a 1.5 to 2 hour commute, so he is gone from 6:30 am till after 7pm. On the weekends, he gets up with the kids, but DS is ready for his first nap at 7:30, if not earlier, and he won't nap without nursing, so I get up. When DD sees me come out of the kids room, she wants to play. I can't say no - she used to have me all to herself so I feel like I need to spend whatever time I can with her when DS is asleep (again - major acting-out since DS was born. I'm hoping that making the extra effort for special time will help her). Sleep may be a priority, but so is she. I have 2 children to nurture. I would feel so selfish if I just trudged back to my room and shut the door.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
I try to get to bed shortly after he is bed, but some things have to get done. By the time DS is asleep, it is 8pm and I need to get DD ready for bed. This has always been a special time for her, and she has been acting out since DS's arrival, so I try to spend special time with her when I can. (She's very much a mommy's girl - doesn't want daddy's help at all) I also have to eat. And this is may be just me, but I have to have a clean kitchen to wake up to - makes my day a little less stressful. The rest of the house - whatever (and believe me, it is WHATEVER, I have had a mountain of clean, unfolded clothes on my living room chair for 2 months now)- but I can't wake up to a sink full of dishes. I usually make it to bed by 9 or 9:30, but then DS is up at 11pm - so I've gotten an hour and a half of sleep before we start the cycle.

I don't have alternate caregivers during the week. DH has a 1.5 to 2 hour commute, so he is gone from 6:30 am till after 7pm. On the weekends, he gets up with the kids, but DS is ready for his first nap at 7:30, if not earlier, and he won't nap without nursing, so I get up. When DD sees me come out of the kids room, she wants to play. I can't say no - she used to have me all to herself so I feel like I need to spend whatever time I can with her when DS is asleep (again - major acting-out since DS was born. I'm hoping that making the extra effort for special time will help her). Sleep may be a priority, but so is she. I have 2 children to nurture. I would feel so selfish if I just trudged back to my room and shut the door.

How selfish can it be when you are giving something of greater value? A rested mama!
Seriously can you not see how your short term goals goals and needs are interfering with your long term need for sleep?
If you catch up on just one saturday, you can be a happier mom all week. Isnt that worth letting your dd be with daddy for a few hours?
You "feel like you need" a LOT of things.
But you NEED NEED sleep. I am not talking long term neglect here.

On Saturday if DS needs a nap at 7:30, have dh bring him in to you to nurse. (so dd doesnt see you coming out of her room) and then bring him back to bed. And you stay in bed!
Your dd does need to be nurtured, but your DH can do it. Leaving her for one day wiht her father is not harmful or neglectful. You CAN say no to playing once in a while. Say yes tomorrow after you have slept.
Saying NO now means you have the freedom to say Yes tomorrow.
If your sleep deficit continues how good of a mother will you continue to be to her? DOesnt your daughter deserve a healthy , happy well rested mother? Isnt it a little selfish to refuse to give that to her? Isnt it a little selfish to say "Only I can make my DD happy" Your DH cant do your sleeping for you while you play with your dd.
And isnt it just as selfish to conside rletting your infant CIO so that your dishes can get done and your dd can play with mommy instead of daddy on Saturday morning?
Nobody expects you to be ubermommy but you. Let your dh help you. Let your dh handle your daughter. Their relationship will flourish and grow stronger the more opportnity he has to care for her. By stepping in and not letting him help (by watching her /playing with her on Saturday, or by taking over her bedtime routine) you are depriving both of them of the opportunity of a deeper relationship and your dd the secure feelign of having two equally trustworthy parents. Isnt it maybe a little MORE selfish to want her to continue to be a "mommy's girl" than it is to get a little needed sleep?

If you are doing the bedtime routine with both children why cant your dh do the kitchen cleanup?

There are a lot of choices you are making here. And all of these things are under your control. You can decide to make sleep a priority or you can decide not to make sleep a priority. But if you choose to not make it a priority, then you are choosing not to take steps to make it better. This is a choice you have the right to make. But I would ask you to seriously consider which is the reasonable choice. If your other alternative is CIO?
Joline


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Kim - I just wanted to give you a hug and some support. DS was like that and I was about to pull my hair out. It seemed like he was on the way toward longer and longer sleep stretches and then BAM!! we were back to every 2-3 hour wakings at night (4 if I was lucky!!) It *was* a phase, it does pass...to give you some hope, that same frequent night waker is now a champion sleeper (all night and one long nap during the day.) I never CIO'd, just sort of muddled through it and thought "When he's 18, I'll look back on these days and miss them!"

Interestingly enough, a close mommy friend with a daughter the same age *did* CIO (Weissbluth, Ferber...she tried all of their techniques







: ) - her daughter did a *bit* better back then, but now she has a 2 year old that is the world's worst sleeper (and has been since she was about 1.) If I can give you no other hope, it's that staying the course of nursing and comforting your baby now will pay off when they're a toddler. I firmly believe that the investment now in your DS's security will pay off in his long-term sleeping patterns. CIO is a crappy, quick fix that tends to bite parents in the rear when they hit toddlerhood.

I *know* it's hard, I've been where you are (so tired that my ears rang, and I dreaded the sun going down because I knew that it was almost time to start the night time) but it *does* get better. (I ended up for some reason this time with a remarkable sleeper...fat baby who doesn't nurse at all at night and didn't from 6 weeks on, go figure...luck of the draw?







)

Anyways, please hang in there...a coffee around 1 in the afternoon tended to help pull me through! (((hugs)))


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## youngnhappymamma (Feb 3, 2002)

hugs to you!!!! /this is a very rough age sleep wise! I second that your dd will be fine playing with your dh on saturday mornings while you catch up on sleep!! And finally asking my dh to take over my older kids' bedtime routine (and me "letting go") was a huge help to me, and ultimatly to my children for the reasons stated in post above. Sleeping in a closer proximity to your ds will help you greatly get through this rough time...maybe you could trade rooms with dd so that you can sleep in the same room with crib or try the pack and play suggeswtion, etc....you will feel so much more rested if you don't have to fully awaken and trudge into another rooom, etc. If ds slept in the same room as you , you could even nurse him laying in your bed (which is very restful) a;nd then place him back in his bed, etc. I love the NCSS. I had a good friend who was very, very helped by the Pantly pull off method and swore by it for her frequent night waker. Good luck!


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## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

I used NCSS with my son, at least most of it. I never could put him down awake without him crying. But I worked on the bedtime routine, watching for his sleepy cues, got him a lovey, etc. I did cosleep with him when he woke at night, he went down in a crib and came in with us at the first wake up. We do have a king sized bed though.

I hate to tell you that he woke up every 2-3 hours until he was 9 months old.

I am happy to tell you that magically, at 10 months, he started sleeping 11-12 hours straight most nights.

Can you sleep in the room with your baby for a short time? Maybe if you are right there you can start to figure out how to sooth him before he needs to suck to get back to sleep? It will also get you more sleep just like co-sleeping would.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm right there with ya mama.







My body aches so badly from night-nursing. I see my chiropractor once a week. I have really bad hips and I need to move frequently when I am sleeping which is impossible. Sometimes I feel like I am going insane.







We have a queen size bed and the crib side-carred but dd never sleeps there because she won't lay down for me without nursing. She does lay in her crib until I go to bed, but even then I have to run up and nurse her every 2-3 hours...or hour...







...then I hand her over to dh because she normally won't lay down for me. Thank goodness your dh helps you at night...my dh is wonderful too, but my brother on the other hand is a complete slacker and my SIL is stuck nursing all night long with out any breaks. I do remember that this really is one of the hardest months. My ds did the same thing and then just started sleeping longer and longer until around 10 months he was sleeping through the night on his own. I really think it is those darned teeth.







:
I do agree though...let your dh take the baby in the morning on the weekends and do not get out of bed. Let him bring ds to you to nurse and for his nap. Those few hours in the morning are what keep me alive. Dh take the kids when they wake up and then brings dd to me for her first nap around 8:30 or 9am. He even comes back up to get her when he hears her wake up and I catch a couple more hours of sleep. You can do it one day a week and your dd will be all the happier for a rested mama. I know it is hard. I really struggled with wanting to be with my first dc because I knew he needed me even more when his sister came along, but he is happy when I am rested.







...and as much as I absolutely hate the phrase...







This too shall pass, and quicker than you think.


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

Hang in there, Mama!!! I know how you feel w/ the baby that will not sleep w/o a boob in the mouth!







It's gotten better, but some nights it's exhausting

And James is almost 4 and has all but given up his nap (excpet in the car!). So a few times last week I told him mommy really needed to rest, so can you please play quietly in your room until Lily wakes up. And he did a great job and I had a nice little nap!

You need sleep to function and be a good mama. So I hope you're able to take a weekend someday to catch up! Even if dd misses you and dh goes nuts, you'll wake up refreshed and ready to face the week, being a better mom. Take care of you so you can take care of them!!










Maybe next week things will be different! You never know w/ these kids. They like to change things up just when you get a handle on things, right?!?


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

My ds definitively left the family bed around 6 mos of age - just as we had adjusted to it and were sleeping well, heh. He slept much better in his crib, but I still did several night feedings, some of which were quite clearly recreational.

Here are some non-CIO things that I've tried or mamas I know have tried, when getting more sleep is critical:

1. Offering a pacifer at bedtime and sending Dad in to pop in the pacifer a couple times during the night.

2. Expressing a bottle of breastmilk for Dad to offer during the night or before the morning nap on the day you sleep in.

3. Using a sleep sack so that baby stays warm.

4. Using a white noise machine.

5. Swaddling the baby.

6. Hiring a cleaning service to reduce the amount of physical labor you do.

7. Asking mom or MIL to visit for a couple of weeks so you can nap.

8. Getting a babysitter for a few hours during the day so you can nap.

9. Taking both kids for a walk in the fresh air to promote napping during the day and help your whacked-out hormones normalize.

10. Offering the older child a very special treat (such as TV) that's only allowed while you are napping during the baby's naps.

11. Creating a daily "quiet time" to replace naps for the older child, when quiet play in a set location in the routine. I know somebody who had their pediatrician "prescribe" the quiet time during a WBC, explaining that it would keep Mommy from getting sick. This may seem guilt-inducing, but it was also the truth.

I really feel where you're coming from. I had my worst exhaustion problems a bit earlier in ds' life, but I really, really hurt myself and I'm angry now that I wasn't a better advocate for my own health. I did not try every single thing on the above list, and I should have. I am expecting #2 in June and I feel much better prepared now to defend myself against society's unreasonable expectation that I can parent an infant without respite care and while continuing to do all the work of a homemaker.

My 17 m.o. ds sleeps 13 hours a night BTW. He loves to sleep. I truly believe that he wouldn't have such a peaceful relationship with sleep if he had been sleep-trained with CIO. To be absolutely honest, I let him cry a few times when I was at my worst (and at least once, I was so exhausted that I actually slept through his cries for awhile), but it did not help the situation (nor does he seem to be traumatized, thank God). People keep telling me it works, but I don't see how. I don't know any Ferber fans whose toddlers sleep as well as mine.


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

I'm sorry that things are so impossible right now--and really in my mind that little of sleep with a 3 year old and a hubby driving that far is impossible parly because it is dangerous. I have a bil who did fall asleep at the wheel. It does happen. I fell asleep giving my son a bath (he is fine but thinking about what could have happened makes me ill). In an ideal situtation maybe you could manage that type of waking but your situation isn't ideal and it sounds unbearable. I have been thinking of other things. This may not work but one thought is this--split the night with your hubby. For example, your husband goes down early (9 or before) and he sleeps without being awakened (he could even wear ear plugs if he wants) until say 2--from that point on he is in charge of your son--so patting and all that (breastfeeding is well established at his age and you desperately need sleep--will he take a paci for soothing or is that out of the question for you?) With his drive he does need a minimum of 5 hours of uninterrupted sleep. I think that is vital. If there needs to be a feeding in there (time wise) he could bring him to you and then take him away if you can feed half asleep. I would try to time it though so you get 4 hours minimum (5 is actually ideal if it could work). I would incorporate dream feeds--where you feed him even if he is half asleep at the time--one at 9 before you go to bed and one at 12 or 1 or whenever is appropriate (so you go back to sleep and your hubby is on from that feed on). The particular timing may not work but something else with the idea of splitting the night like that might help?? I hope so I feel bad for you. Oh, I did sleep on the week-ends early on with my boys. Yes, they didn't get me as much as they would have without me sleeping but they had daddy time (which is also great care and important) and it helped me be a better mom the rest of the week. I'm sorry things are tough and hope that you find a way to make it better. Here is a link to a dr. sears article with some things about sleeping/soothing that might be helpful ideas...http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070300.asp (it also mentions feeding frequently during the day, sleep setting, and napping) When they were your sons age I did make sure my boys were napping at appropriate times during the day (9 and 1 usually) so that they didn't confuse their days and nights. I also gave my one son a white noise machine and was very careful about his sleep environment--he was (and is) super sensitive like your son seems to be (not a co-sleeper either for similar reasons). I can't even have the furnace/air on (unless it is set to be constantly on) while he is sleeping because the going on and off wakes him...

I hope you get some rest very soon--hugs to you.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Hugs to you OP. I know what it's like to be sleep deprived. Although my dd sleeps fine at the moment, we had rocky times--especially when I had to nurse 8-12 x per day while pumping 6 x per day. I got NO sleep and then finally realized if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy. I think a pp's idea for you to have a Mommy Sleep Day is wonderful. You deserve it and it sounds like you need it.

I know it seems like you'll never get sleep and get your braing back -- it was hard to me to realize that when I had my own troubles -- but the time really does pass and these few weeks or one month will seem like small potatoes in the future.


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

oh, my goodness. I have so been in your shoes. Months 5-7 were horrendous on us...around 6.5 months she started sleeping great but then those darn teeth started coming in. At almost 9 months things are vastly improved but then now she's sick and possibly teething some more, so, nightwakings again.

I remember feeling just like you and it was so tough. We didn't cosleep either even though we tried really hard, it just wasn't an option. DD just doesn't sleep well with us. She wouldn't sleep more than 7 hours total in a night and that's nowhere near enough for her. It's so frustrating to be trying to be AP and then you run up against these hurdles and the only option anyone has for you is cosleeping. No offense to those who keep suggesting it, but it really doesn't work for everyone. Plus everyone assumes you can sleep through nursing. I'm a finicky sleeper and I can't, so cosleeping really didn't do any of us any good. And I can't nap. I just can't fall asleep during the day so none of the suggestions for sleeping when they sleep, or catching up on the weekend worked. I tell you all of this just so you know that I understand your sheer desperation. For awhile my DD didn't want to go back to sleep after her wakings at all. But she was miserable while awake. I was so sleep deprived and depressed that I literally was worried about my ability to mother her. And now, honestly, I don't really remember much of it or how it got better other than waiting it out.

I'm wondering if sharing a room with your DD is causing some of the wakings. Have you tried a white noise machine to block out some of the normal night noises everyone makes? Could you try for one night having DD sleep with you guys to see if he does better alone? Have you ruled out teething? If you're ok with it you may want to try some tylenol or advil to see if that helps. The homeopathic stuff never helped my DD. Have you tried tanking him up during the afternoon/evening? I'm betting he's not all that hungry though from what you've said so that may not help.

For us the main cause of her wakings was so many milestones. She started crawling, clapping, and pulling up all in the same couple of weeks so her brain was just on overload. I bet that's a contributing factor. It's an exciting time for your little guy!

I know, know, know that this isn't going to make you feel a whole lot better, but try to keep perspective. Yes, this is wretched and difficult right now. But remember this little baby will someday be a teenager who 1) probably won't ever want to get out of bed and 2) would be horrified if you wanted snuggles a few times a night. Try to see the good part of it...your son loves and needs you so much that he can't bear to sleep without you for more than a couple of hours. You are everything to him right now and won't be forever, so try to enjoy it as much as you can.


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

AmieV, that was so sweet!!! Thanks for the "warm fuzzies"!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Thanks AmieV! Your post was very sweet and made my morning!

We did try moving DD into our bed for a couple of nights and it didn't seem to help DS. We did put on a fan (blowing into the corner) for white noise last week, and although it didn't help DS, it did help DD sleep through DS's awakenings - she hardly wakes at all anymore. Definately could be teething - he got his bottom 2 a couple weeks ago, and he most likely is working on some more. I have notices that when I give him ibuprofen before bedtime, he will sleep better the first part of the night, but I hate giving him medicine as routine when I'm not positive that is the problem. But maybe I should - ugh, so confused. Tanking him up didn't do a bit of good (like you said, I don't think he's waking from hunger) - I fed him right before I went to bed, and he still woke at 11pm on the dot (he's a snuggly Timex!). And lastly - the milestones, he is definately working on a lot of stuff. In the last week or so, he has been getting up on all fours and really really trying to crawl, and he's also been trying to pull up on things. So that could be it too.

You know, we tried a sleep day on Saturday - and like you - I couldn't sleep!!!! I was so po'd! DH woke with the kids, then successfully put DS to 1st nap without nursing, then took DD out to do errands (she's great with him when I'm not around). Nice quiet house, nice soft bed - absolutely no Zzzzzzz's from momma. I laid in bed for over an hour wide awake before DS woke from his nap. I guess we can't manipulate our clocks either! Oh well.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

It took me a long time to learn to nap in the daytime. I just told myself that even lying still in bed was doing my exhausted body more good than being up and about, and sometimes I practiced relaxation exercises (tense up the different muscle groups, then consciously relax them).

Even though you couldn't fall asleep, give your dh big praise for waking the kids and getting ds down for his nap without nursing. That will encourage him to continue doing it.









I always figure that if the ibuprofen makes the baby sleep longer, then the baby was waking due to some sort of pain. Ibuprofen is not a sleep-inducing drug like cough syrup, after all. I think it is a great drug and very safe for anybody with normal liver function who doesn't drink too much alcohol.


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## kater07 (Jan 6, 2002)

Bring his crib into your room and side car it. My DS woke every 90 mins to 2 hours until he was 18 months old. He nursed back to sleep every time. He did not sleep entirely through the night (6 hours straight) until he was 2 and didn't go longer than that until he transitioned to his full sized bed in his own room at 2.5 years old. After he weaned at 23 months, he woke up every night at some point for a glass of water.

A 6 month old is not old enough to go back to sleep alone, and, IMO, isn't old enough to be sleeping alone in another room. If you need a smaller option, maybe get a pack n play for baby to sleep in next to your bed.

Good luck!


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

I just read this entire thread, and at first I was really pissed off because it felt to me like a number of people were saying, "what's your problem? Babies are supposed to wake up a lot and you're supposed to suck it up!" After that, you received a lot more sympathetic and potentially practical advice, so I won't type up the angry rant I was internally composing on your behalf.









I will say this- my first son woke constantly. We tried a bunch of things after he turned one, and he still woke about every two hours until after he was THREE. So to those who subscribe to the "this too shall pass" philosophy, 3 years is a really long time to go without sleep; it's not good for anyone in the family; and some kids just never reach this magical developmental point on their own where they start sleeping through the night without waking you up.

Our daughter is now 12 months old and also nightwakes nearly as much. We tried gentle methods starting much earlier with her (the Pantley book does have a lot of ideas), but really, nothing seems to have been much help. (I have sleeping trouble myself; there may be a genetic or prenatal-hormone link- who knows.)

I know exactly what you mean about the baby not seeming to need to eat so often at night, and I disagree with the folks who claim that a baby that demands all-night nursing actually "needs" all-night nursing at 6 months. For my own sanity, my husband is in charge of comforting my daughter until it's been at least 3 hours since she last ate at night, and even with that stretch (oooh, a whole 3 hours!) she isn't eating efficiently.

My best advice is to get as much sleep as you can, even if that means trading off with your husband more than you'd like, as other people have suggested. I guess I really don't have much to add to others' comments, but something about this thread just bugged me, so I felt compelled to reply anyway.


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## mom2alicia (Nov 30, 2004)

Sometimes the answer isn't nurse or cry. i would experiment a bit with sleeping conditions to make your baby more comfortable. My daughter is very sensitive to stimulation and frequent night nursing was basically making her environment more tolerable for her. eventually i figured out what kinds of things helped her sleep more comfortably. In my childs situation it turns out she had food allergies. She had gas, stomach cramping, and itchy dry skin. No wonder she woke up frequently and slept so restlessly! i'm so glad i didn't let her cry it out. i eliminated dairy from my diet and her skin cleared up and she slept better. still not great, but better. also my daughter is very sensitive to temperature and sound. i experimented with how much to clothe her in at night and found she sleeps best in pj's and a blanket sleeper over that. also every little sound woke her, so we started using a white noise machine to mask noises. that helped too. the whole first year, my daughter woke 4-6 times a night. she took 1-2 hours to fall asleep and at at least one of her night wakings was up tossing and turning unable to sleep for 1-2 hours. but eventually she slept through the night. to this day at age 2 1/2 she still takes awhile to fall asleep, not as bad, but it takes 30 min to an hour, but she sleeps comfortably through the night on her futon with lots of pillows and blankets with her white noise machine and room darkening shade! Some kids are very sensitive to noise or light or physical sensations like scratchy clothing, etc. oh, yeah, only 100% cotton pj's, no polyester. my advice is that if your child is waking that frequently he is probably uncomfortable. the nursing might be soothing. but i would try to figure out what is causing the discomfort. i didn't read through all the other posts so i may be repeating some stuff. oh, and if i even remotely thought it could be teething pain or something i gave tylenol at bedtime and had a dose pre-preared and ready for the middle of the night.


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## mamakadosh (Jul 8, 2005)

my son started waking to nurse several times a night when he was 9 mths, after not needed to nurse at night for several months. after about a week of frequent night nursing, i began to feel that he really didn't need the food, just the comfort and began to experiment with other ways to get him to sleep. in his case, i found that pacing the floor while holding him actually worked, much to my surprise. it was exhausting, as he weighs 25 pounds, but after 2 nights of this he stopped wanting to nurse at night (except once early in the morning). he still wakes frequently, but i can get him back to sleep pretty quickly without nursing OR pacing, just soothing him in his crib and at some point i move him into bed with me. my point is that maybe experimenting with different ways to get him to sleep would help, and once he can sleep without nursing he might require less to return to sleep. NCSS recommends this also. i agree with your original instinct that he is probably not waking because he needs the nutrition, but more likely just for soothing, and you might find another way to meet his needs that would either lead to less waking or at least less effort on your part. i also agree with the mamas who encourage you to do whatever you can to get some sleep - it really is important, although understandably difficult. good luck!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have shared your stories and offered thoughts on how to improve our situation. At least I know that I am not a lone traveller on this vessel, and for some reason, that alone seems to help.

Unfortunately no good news to report in the snooze department. We had his meds adjusted for reflux and added a bedtime antacid with no change in his sleeping pattern. We then gave him ibuprofen and Hylands tablets for teething (he has been chewing on EVERYTHING lately), with the same results. If anything, he is actually sleeping worse. Whereas, previously he was giving us on early leg of 3-4 hours of sleep, he is now waking at 10pm to start the pattern of every 1.5-2 hours of waking. And is wanting to start his day at 4:30!!! Ugh - nothing like doing a sink full of dishes while DS blissfully rolls about on the floor before the sparrows have even THOUGHT about waking for their day! Of course, he is ready for his nap at 6:30am right as his sister is getting up. Impeccible timing. I had a nice twitch in my eye all day yesterday - very attractive.

My DH is off the week of Thanksgiving, so the plan will be for him to try to get DS back to sleep if he has woken before 3 hours have passed since his last nursing session. I am really hoping that a full week of DH responding will encourage him to sleep through those awakenings and just wake at those times I nurse him. Fingers crossed......


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Big







to you mama. I'm glad to see the tone of the responses has changed since the first page.







:

I think we all need to try to really listen to each other with compassion. When a mama is asking for help...it's because she needs help...not to be told that she needs to change her attitude.

Night-time parenting has been a tough one for me since day one. I have a hard time waking up completely and I wake up really angry.









I martyred my way through -- not letting DH help because, like the OP I was concerned about his safety while driving a long distance to and from work -- and often resented my baby for it. We just recently night-weaned our 17 month old and it has been the best thing for both of us.









One of my friends has a 6 mo DS and she realized that his night-waking was really affecting how she felt about him and herself and her DH in a very negative way. She was so against the idea of sleep-training of any kind and wanted to be 100% child-led but finally hit bottom and realized she had to re-evaluate what she was doing and why. For her it was waking up in the morning and not wanting to see her baby that flipped the switch in her brain that what she was doing wasn't working for her.

She chose to use methods described in the Baby Whisper and had really positive results. (I've often seen that book maligned here on MDC, but just thought I'd mention it because a few of my postnatal yoga students - who are all gentle, loving mamas - have found it to be helpful.)

Does your DS take a paci? That has been our saving grace because she will take a paci and snuggle from DH. (We had to figure something out since I worked two evenings a week and DH needed to be able to console her.)

Quote:

My DH is off the week of Thanksgiving, so the plan will be for him to try to get DS back to sleep if he has woken before 3 hours have passed since his last nursing session. I am really hoping that a full week of DH responding will encourage him to sleep through those awakenings and just wake at those times I nurse him. Fingers crossed......
Fingers crossed for you!! Sounds like a good plan.









Our general approach has been to try what feels right and see how she responds. If it doesn't work, we try something else.

I also made an effort to really appreciate DH and his efforts with night-time parenting -- backrubs, drop him e-mails at work telling him what a great papa he is etc. -- because the constant waking (for the first few nights) was really tough on him.

Good luck mama!!

~Erin


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Addie's mom, my dh has the week after thanksgiving off and we are planning the same exact thing! It worked for our ds.

About the not being able to fall asleep. I had the SAME problem I swear.
But like the pp mentioned. Just lying there relaxing is a good start.
But here is what really did it for me. It took patience but here is what I would do. If I wanted to take a nap I would set a timer and tell myself that I had to lay on the couch with my eyes closed until the timer went off.
And here's the kicker. Whenever my mind tried to wander and think of all the stuff I should be doing (or just run on and on and keep me awake) I would stop it by forcing myself to think of the color blue.
You could pick anything completely boring and not really worthy of thought. But I used the color blue as my zen focus.
And just making myself keep my eyes closed (even when I felt restless and wanted to get up) and by replacing intruding thoughts with a single thought that had nowhere to go. I eventually started falling asleep. Usually within just a few minutes.
See you cant make your mind stop thinking about stuff. Because just thinking "I have to stop thinking about x" is really a way of thinking about X. It is impossible to think about nothing. So it really helps to think about something. But just not something interesting enough to keep you awake.
Anyway, that was a great try and I am so sorry you did not get the rest you desparately need. Dont give up mama!
Joline


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## dolfinluvr (Sep 8, 2004)

Kim,
I MORE than understand where you are coming from! I am living it to! AND our children our the same age! My 2nd DD was born 4/28/05 and just had her 6mo. check up this morning where her doc told me, after I described to her how she is still not sleeping very long stretches, to let her CIO.







:

My DD has never been a very good sleeper. It's not so hard to get her to sleep but it's getting her to STAY asleep! She too wakes up about every 2-2.5hrs. sometimes hourly if she's sick/teething/growth spurt. It's completely and utterly exhausting!!!!









I hear ya' and get what you are saying. I do not expect my DD to sleep soundly from 8p.m. to 7a.m. either but I certainly would like to think that she could go 3 maybe even 4 hrs. b/t needing to get up and eat. Our difference is I am not nursing anymore (Loooooong story) and DD gets bottles of formula.

I've tried co-sleeping with both of my children and it just doesn't seem to be for us. Not b/c of a space issue, as with you, but because both me and my children seem to be very light sleepers. If I were to sleep with DD I couldn't move a muscle or she'd wake up. Then, as you mentioned, I'd have to start the 20min. process all over again!

One thing we've been doing lately is not giving her a bottle every time she wakes up but instead giving her her pacifier or just rocking her back to sleep or patting her on the butt. Can't tell for sure if it's working but she has shown some more random moments of 3-3.5hrs. of sleep!

Feel free to pm me if you wish and know that I am SO here for you and that we are literally in the same boat with our children! Maybe together we can find something that works for us, by sharing different tactics, etc.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

I didn't wanna read and run without a hug for you. Hang in there mama this shall pass. Continue to nurse him at night when he wants and before you know it'll all be over.








It is hard but whoever said parenting was easy!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Hey Dolfinluvr! Sorry you are in the trenches too! DS's ped appt is next week and I am curious as to what she will say - maybe I'll just tell her he is sleeping fine so as not to get the CIO lecture. I just so wish that things were different right now. Hard to believe that he was sleeping better at 6 weeks than now at 6 mos! My DS is the same as your DD - not tough getting to sleep, but can not STAY asleep. This am I brought him into bed at 4am and he just tossed, turned, scrapped and squeaked until DH got up for work at 5:30 and took DS with him. Oh well. It's just tough keeping an even keel all day especially with my spirited DD on the go all day. How is your DD1 - are you able to have a little down time during the day.

Joline - good luck to you! Only 2 more weeks! DH is willing to do it now, but the last thing I need to be concerned about is him driving 2 hours on 4 hours of (disrupted) sleep. Thanks for the relaxation tips - I'll try it this weekend if I can convince DH to take DD out again.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

I seem to be one of the few posters who get it that you're not going to co-sleep. First things first. Your baby is going through a very normal physiological process. A six month growth spurt. And, other pps were correct in writing that your milkmaking hormones are highest at night, thus, physiologically, this is the logical time for an infant to do the most work to get the most milk! So. Since we've already established that you're not going to co-sleep, therefore you are going to be losing significant amounts of sleep, let's see if we can get you as much rest as possible, shall we? You know to get to ds as soon as possible (when he's stirring, rather than crying), right? If you're a light sleeper this shouldn't be a problem. THis will help him to get back to sleep sooner because he's less fully awake. It will also keep dd from waking up. Next. Find yourself a caregiver in the afternoons. It could be a grandparent. Or not. If you don't live near gparents, then call the local senior center. Find this out. If you'd be willing to drive one of their seniors to the grocery two times a week, would they be willing to sit w/dd while you nap, before you bring them home from the grocery? Or, contact a homeschooling group. Is there an older homeschooler who'd be willing to swap you babysitting a five to ten hours a week while you sleep, for the teaching of some skill you posess(sewing, crochet, music, etc)? How about another local mom? Would she be willing to take dd while you sleep in the morning if you take her child while she runs errands in the afternoon? We all know that running errands gets done SO MUCH faster when you don't have little ones in tow. What about church? If you attend a church (or etc), is there a young adult getting to ready to make a sacrament that needs service/volunteer hours (this goes for local high schools, too...some of them require specific numbers of hours per student as a graduation requirement)? You'd be the perfect set-up. They can sit w/your three year old while you sleep, and also fold some laundry/unload the diswasher. You can use one or all of these options (ie







ne a day, to spread out some of the hours).

Also. Your husband, whether he's "the type" or not, if he wants to sleep in his own bed, is going to have to give you a hand both with the kids and around the house. For your part, start making a menu for six weeks at a time. Go to the library and get some crock-pot and "quick" meal cookbooks. Make soup one night, breakfast one night. A roast one night. Veggie one night. Same category same night each week (this quickens the pace while meal planning). Then, grocery shop for the week. Use your crock pot. Make all the parts ahead that you can. Have dinner on the table with less effort in less time. While you're cooking have the sink full of hot soapy water and clean up as you go. Then, have your dd bring her plate to the sink. She is old enough. Same for husband. Then clean up together *before* bedtime.

This next little bit is VERY important, and helped me soooo much. For the next week, put dd down WITH your husband. Whatever the routine is, you do it together. Then, for the next three days or so, you sit there as he does everything. THEN. You "go out" somewhere for the next few days. I used to just go snooze in the car. When dd is aware that you're "gone" and she doesn't have any choice BUT dad, things'll go easier for him. Then, when she's used to dad (and yes, she'll cry for you) you let him do it all all the time. You, are not a control freak(or if you value your sleep, you'll learn quickly NOT to be), and are aware that you will be a much more fun and happy mommy with some personal time and some rest under your belt. Also, you married the man and made babies with the man. You trust his abilities and his love for his children. He works long hours, and doesn't get to see them as much as he'd most likely love to. He DESERVES, as does your daughter, the time to get to know his little girl. Now. When you put ds down, go to bed for an hour while dd and daddy go through the bedtime routine. Then, have dh come in and get you. Snuggle together and talk about your day for a few minutes. Then, if you're still tired after your daytime nap and this evening nap, go to sleep for good until ds wakes. I did this for MONTHS (into the double digits)after my dd was born, and for at least three months after ds was born. It really made a difference in my ability to function as a human being, a wife, and a parent. In fact, for the first nursing of the evening, dh would bring baby to me and then put them back, too, so HE was responsible for moving the baby and my feet never left the floor...more rest.

My DH works from five thirty in the morning until six thirty or seven in the evening most days. He misses the kids, and spends as much time with them as he can. He gets up with them in the morning on the weekends and brings me the baby when it needs to nurse, until I wake up. They have all benefitted from the time they spend without me, imposing my "mommy" style of parenting. Most of the time? They don't get fruit with their breakfast when dh feeds it to them. That drives me crazy...but not crazy *enough* to miss out on my only real sleep opportunity of the week! I give them extra fruit during the day, problem solved.

I guess my point in all this is, if you really want a solution, and not just to cry about your lack of sleep (and, hey there's nothing wrong with looking for a shoulder, either...we've all been there), there IS a solution, or several, with which you can live. You just have to be proactive, and believe that you will sleep again, even normal hours, one day. Please, be proactive. Make some phone calls. Do some favor swapping. It doesn't have to cost you a thing. We don't have two pennies to rub together, but we were creative! So, good luck.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

A couple of things that worked for me in utter desperation for sleep - I used the swing at nights sometimes - I'd sleep on the couch with the swing on right next to me. I'm not a big advocate for swings but dd always would conk out with one. I also would put on a baby einstein video if a 3 am waking wasn't going back to sleep - with dd in the swing and I slept on the couch. I know it's not what others might have approved of as good parenting but I would wake up easily if she cried or anything. I was desperate. She was strapped in very well and not pulling out or anything. There were times when tv and the swing saved me in the middle of the night (after ruling out all other causes of waking).

Also at times when I really needed sleep and couldn't fall asleep - I take just a few sips of wine or a small glass worth. Not enough to pass on to dd through nursing but settled my nerves when I was living on adrenaline paranoia that I'd fall asleep during the day. I did this when dh would be home and watching dd and I had time to nap but couldn't fall asleep. It wears off quickly enough that you can wake back up to care for your child if needs be.

Hope thanksgiving week works for you well.

We're also moving toward having daddy be more invovled in bedtime with my 2 yo and we've both realized that it will take him time to develop the soothing tools for their unique relationship and that I don't need to hover and fix it. It is important for her to learn how to be soothed by daddy at times just as it took a while for her to learn how to be quickly soothed by me (when non-hungry crying). My dd is still nursing but dh does the bedtime stuff and has her laying down and cuddling and whenever she asks for nursies I come in and nurse her to sleep. But just wanted to agree with the other posters who said it's an important part of your daughter's relationship with her father to let him soothe her at times like bedtime, etc. They need a special thing that is "theirs" and bedtime could be it. It is something she'll have to learn to trust daddy can soothe her but it's something she might miss out on if she doesn't eventually learn. You're pushing yourself really hard to meet everyone's needs but you're running out of gas by not atleast somewhat meeting your own. I hope you find a solution soon that works for you! Fortunately as time goes by you are hopefully one day closer each day to your baby just outgrowing the whole thing.







I think survival is key here for everyone - especially you!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Hey - I just wanted to give everyone a quick update.....

We couldn't wait till Thanksgiving week - last Friday he started waking every 45 minutes. I would go in to nurse him, he would fall asleep, I would put him back in his bed, he would wake anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes later. By 1am, I brought him into bed with me and DH. He was even worse - he just didn't sleep at all for 2.5 hours. He would nurse, pull off, scratch, try to crawl off the bed, fuss, and eventually cry. By 4am he was back in his crib, where he fell asleep for...........wait for it.........45 minutes. Ugh - back to square 1.

Soooooo - DH and I agreed that Saturday night he would go in to soothe DS if he woke before midnight, and again if he woke before 4 or 5. The first 2 nights DH was up a bunch - DH rocked and rocked and sang and snuggled (he's such a good daddy!) until he fell asleep (DD didn't wake once!). We also agreed that if it didn't seem as though DS would fall asleep without nursing, or seemed at all hungry, DH would come get me to nurse. But each time he fell asleep relatively easily - settled right into DH's shoulder.

Fast forward to last night - DS SLEPT FROM 7:30 TO 2:45!!!! He went back down at 3am then was up again at 6am!!!! Of course, I still woke up every hour waiting for him, but whatever! Hopefully a couple more nights of this and my body will calm down and allow me to sleep 7 hours straight too!

Equally good news - DH came home last night and told me that he has been transferred to an office.............20 minutes from here!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG - I feel like I have won the lottery!!!!!!!!!







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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Aren't days like that the best?







Good for you!


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## mom2alicia (Nov 30, 2004)




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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I am crying tears of joy for you!!!!!
Hooray for you! Hooray for your ds!! Hooray for your DH! Hooray for your DD!!







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What a reason to celebrate!
You have a wonderful husband to do this thing. And I am sure it was just as good for him and your ds as it was for you!!!


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

OH, my gosh what terrific news!!

I'm doing SUCH a happy dance for you! Way to go, DS! Sleep is a GOOD thing!


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## onandon (Jan 7, 2005)

Congrats on your husband's new commute! Living close to work is such a good quality of life enhancer! I don't usually post in the Nighttime Parenting Forum since I don't actually have a great sleeper..... But I did have some big problems with sleep around 6-7 months. My daughter work to pee many times during the night. She woke to pee, was uncomfortable, nursed, fell asleep, woke to pee....it went on and on. We went from prefolds to Seventh Generation disposables to Fuzzi Bunz and none made it better. We had to change her during the night no matter what she peed in and then nurse back to sleep. I started offering her the potty 1st thing in the morning and from that night on she peed before bed and immediately upon waking but not during the night. From that point on I knew that the wakings were because she actually needed milk, rather then me using nursing as the convenient (for me) way to get her to sleep. There are so many reasons for nightwaking, cold, hungry, thirsty, teething, etc. but since no one mentioned bathroom needs I thought I'd add it to the list. I know I can't get to sleep if I have to pee!

A bed note---many of the mamas have mentioned arms falling asleep when nursing. This happened to me every night until we got a latex mattress. It's dreamy!

Good luck!


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## midwestmeg (Jul 10, 2005)

Wow, I just couldn't read all five pages of this thread and not post.

Congrats on the sleep!!! I think using DH is one of the best night time parenting tricks. I did what some of the PP's suggested when I got stressed; I'd spend my evening in Target and DH would put DD to bed. DH helped me a lot when we worked on night weaning; all I had to do was explain a 'plan' and promise to stick to my part.

I also agree that 6 mo is a high need time. Growth spurts, teeth, more awareness and all that.

Your baby sounds like a great candidate for a pacifier.... I was dead set against them in the beginning but my daughter loves them. They aren't very groovy-mama but they are helpful for those sucking-but-not-drinking needs.

And the rule of thumb with babies? As soon as you've figured it out, it all changes, so best learn to be flexible. That's what I've learned anyway.









I also think it's great that mamas have offered so much support. I agree with some of the PP's that you should be supported and helped in a positive way. You've gotten so much great advice!


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## jadzia's_mommy (Jun 9, 2005)

I just read this whole thread and wanted to send some







as well! I'm glad things are going better for you. Just to add to the same boat club, my DD was the same way at that age. Things got better. Sometimes they are worse again, and sometimes they are better again. I know how horrible that sleep deprivation can feel. No additional suggestions, I just wanted to let you know I've been there too!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I got all teary eyed too reading about your good news! Yay for you!!














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## indeospero (May 23, 2005)

I just read this whole thread too, and I felt a need to send you (Kim) some well-wishes and kudos. Good for you for sticking it out and searching for solutions! Sounds like ds is getting his needs lovingly met, and it's wonderful that you recognize your own needs as well, and are working to meet them. Your dh sounds like a gem. Go team!

Reading this thread made me really happy. It's amazing to hear all these mama voices chiming in to try to help!


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

Kim, that's amazing news all around!! I can't believe it was that simple. Enjoy being rested and coherant!!














Well, if you can stop waking up every hour (I know how that is).


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## JustVanessa (Sep 7, 2005)

I am so happy for you Kim!!!!!!
Hopefully your little man keeps it up for you.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Still going strong! DS has been sleeping till 2 or 3am (at which time he nurses) then we've been bringing him into bed around 5:30 (where, he doesn't fall back to sleep, but rolls around and coos - hey, at least I'm not up!) DS will usually wake around 12:30am, but after a couple of grunts and squeaks will return to sleep. DH only had to get up once to help him settle - and it took all of 2 minutes. The throbbing pain behind my right eye is gone, my patience has returned, and I look forward to seeing DS in the morning. You know that saying "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you"? That's the way I was beginning to feel, and it was making me so sad. Now, my heart spills over every time I see him - just like it should be.







Amazing what a little sleep will get ya! He's a lot happier too. During the day he's now able to stay awake 3-4 hours happily before needing to nap. Previously, he was fussing to go to sleep after only being awake 45 minutes. We're all enjoying each other. Love it!









Thanks to everyone again! You are the best mamas around!


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

Wow! Lots of replies, so I'll keep this very brief.

I believe cosleeping is the answer; whether in the same bed or a bed or mattress next to your bed.

Two great books: "Nighttime Parenting" by Dr. Sears and "The Family Bed" by Tine Thevin [The Family Bed goes into the history of human sleep patterns, etc. very interesting!] "No Cry Sleep Solution" is also very good.


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## Ltlfaery (May 21, 2005)

my 5 month old is like that. She wakes up many times a night. We co-sleep, but i can't nurse laying on my side, it's too uncomfortable for me, so now she sleeps ON me most of the night. DD wakes up at the slightest moves, and wants to nurse back to sleep. I sympathize with you over sleep depravation. I get it too and she's in bed with us. I don't even know how it would be if she wasn't in our bed. I can't even get her to lay beside me most nights. When i do try i end up even more tired from even MORE frequent night wakings. She too goes for about 1-2 hrs between nursings at night.

I did slip her a paci when she was half asleep the other day. I took her off my breast after a while. She wanted back on, just to suck. I put a paci in her mouth and she kept sucking on it. Now, she doesn't use a paci on reg. basis, if she's awake she doesn't like them, she may bite them, but doesn't suck them, never has. BUT she was almost OUT, and didn't know the difference. Perhaps you can try something like that to cut your nursing sessions shorter and get more sleep?


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

Kim, Sometimes our amazing lil ones know what we need more than we do and they "affect" things to make sure our lives go through the necessary changes. It sounds to me like that baby of yours went through just what your family needed and you have all grown so beautifully as a result.

Pretty awesome huh?

Congrats.


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## cozzensclan (Feb 10, 2005)

Another reason your son may be wanting to nurse all night is just his desire to be close to you. My second son was the same way and we resolved the issue by having more skin to skin contact. Maybe if you had him in just a diaper and kept your shirt off so he could feel your skin, hear your heartbeat more clearly, and be comforted by your warmth, the actual nursing wouldn't be such an issue. It worked for us - Just a suggestion


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## vespersongs (Jan 9, 2003)

Addiesmom,
I sent you a PM. I know if I posted it I'd get blasted. it's some common sense sleep solutions that I've used, and has nothign to do with "scheduling" or "crying it out". Babies can absolutely sleep through the night and learn how to sleep in their own bed, with compassion, flexibility and common sense. Don't feel guilty about it!!! I personally feel that when your parenting starts to suffer because you're DEAD tired, you can find the middle road and do what you need to do to get the whole family some _rest_.

BTW, when you all get to the end of your rope, email me and i'll give you the same info!

I don't believe that AP (which i practice!!!) needs to be this "martyr" syndrome-inducing lifestyle, like "it's all your baby's needs and the heck with your own". i'm really tired of hearing that. SAy what you will if you're mad at me. I mean it all in love.


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

I am so glad to read that things seem to be working. Yay - fingers crossed for you.

I'm reading this thread with interest because my almost four month old has been getting less and less sleep as the days and weeks go by. Today she had three twenty minute naps all day long - by the time I was getting her dressed for bed she was so tired that every little noise or jolt would make her startle, her bottom lip stick out and she'd begin to cry so heartbreakingly. I know exactly how she felt - because I feel so sleep deprived and on edge I think I'm going to jump out of my skin as well. She co-slept beautifully for two months, but then something changed. She'd take hours to fall asleep (lots of crying), stopped nursing lying down, and would take forever to get back to sleep after nursing at night (so we'd have to get up, bouce, sway, rock etc for up to an hour to get her to sleep). We tried the crib one day and it seemed to work, so although I missed her, we moved her in there. All was well - she was waking up once, maybe twice a night, going back to sleep easily. She even had a few nights where she slept 8, 9, even 12 hours. The past few weeks things have been crazy. She had a week or two where she'd wake up at 3am and be wide awake till 6am. Now she is just waking up constantly and taking ages to fall back to sleep. WE've begun putting her down in her crib and bringing her in bed with us when she wakes up at night, but even that isn't helping things much as she'll still not settle well in bed with us, and all three of us seem to spend the rest of the night in a semi-awake state. Not sure what the answer is - still trying to figure out what my next step should be.

I've noticed in talking to many mamas that some just handle the inevitable sleep deprivation better than others. Some women just roll with it, co-sleeping or not. I don't. I've always had a hard time wiht lack of sleep - my mom says even as a child if I stayed up too late a few nights in a row i'd get sick. I can't function on this little sleep, I can't drive safely, I can't carry on conversations, and most of all (just like you mentioned) I cannot be an attached, responsive and gentle parent to my four year old OR my sweet babe. It breaks my heart to feel like I am failing dd#1, and not living up to the expectations she has based on our relationship over the past four years. But - I just don't feel like I have anything to pull from when I am this tired.

It took me four years to be ready to have another baby because it was so hard for me the first time around - I seriously just about had a breakdown between 4-6 months (when my dd was waking about 15+ times per night). She rarely nursed to sleep (rarely comfort nursed at all) and would never co-sleep.

I was at my wits end - when my ped explained that if she is used to waking and nursing then she has a legitimate hunger cycle that needs to be addressed to help her sleep improve - so just trying to cut out nursing sessions is almost guarenteed to fail, even if it seemed to be helping at first. Just like an adult skipping lunch and then snacking constantly until dinnertime, a baby who is not fed when they've grown to expect it will make up for the feeding somewhere else. She suggested we gradually decrease the length of nursing sessions - which we did with great success. I paid attention for a few nights to see how long dd would nurse for, then started ending the nursing session just two minutes earlier. Once she was settling easily I reduced it a few more minutes. It was NOT a quick fix - it took about two months, but by six months she was sleeping about 12 hours and taking two naps during the day of about two hours each. All this was accomplished without crying, without ignoring her needs for closeness, without traumatizing her. The end result was a much happier daughter, and a MUCH, MUCH happier mother. Once she was sleeping I finally felt like I had hit my stride and could really do it.

I can't even express how much it frustrates me to see that your request for help was met with repeated suggestions that the problem is yours, that there is nothing gentle you can do to encourage better sleep, and that co-sleeping will solve everything. I've seen this time and time again, with an attached and loving mama at the end of her rope, just about begging for help and being told that the only AP solution is to just live with it.

Being an attached parent is about the bigger picture, not just where everyone sleeps at night, or how often a baby nurses - if gently and respectfully helping your baby to sleep better enhances your overall relationship with him and with the rest of your family - how can that not be AP and in the best interest of everyone involved?

I don't believe in CIO (we did some CIO with dd#1 - in a fit of uninformed desperation - but would NEVER do it again, and will always feel guity) - but I also believe that periods of good, solid sleep are very beneficial for most babies, and that they can be achived in a number of gentle and respectful ways, ways that honour the needs of both baby AND mother.

Best wishes for a good nights sleep.
Jeanette


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## Jacob'smomma (Feb 26, 2004)

As soon as I co slept all of my sleeping issues seem to go away. It's too bad you are unable to. It seemed strange to me at first but with my second baby, now three months old I wake up well rested every morning. I no longer have false expectations of my baby. I am much more relaxed and am enjoying the journey however it chooses to unfold. With my first I coslept and nursed till he was two and he sleeps in his own bed now. He requested that so I honoured his wishes and got him a bed. He sleeps great right through the night now at almost three. I believe that the cosleeping helped him learn to eventually sleep on his own on his timetable. Every baby has different needs.Now I let my daughter tell me what is next by following her cues. If you follow your baby everyone wins in the end.


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## vespersongs (Jan 9, 2003)

There IS one and only one time when it is OK to let your baby cry. Know what it is? It's when the sleep deprivation makes you so crazy that you feel like you could hurt your baby. ANyone else been there? I have.

My ds did not want to cosleep--it was playtime all night if we tried. He wanted his peace and quiet (ds is very different and wants to be snuggled more, and calms down that way, so we do it more--but we still are teaching her slowly to sleep in her cradle--next to our bed for 5 months until SIDS risk is over--and fall asleep on her own). Once we learned this we were all a lot happier and more well rested. I struggled with terrible guilt, though, because of responses like most of the ones here, that somehow Addiesmom is not "paying attention to her baby's needs" and not practicing attachment parenting.

I got over it. I ask you all: What is the more "attached" thing to do: to assume all children benefit from the same routines, or to truly listen to not only your baby's needs, but your whole family's, so that one is not striving against the other? Of course this takes time and is a transition--nothing about parenting is easy (OK, except for those smiles, giggles, songs, hugs...







)--but I'll say it again: we're parents, not martyrs. It's the principle, not the method.

The thing I always keep in mind is to snuggle my kids lots and tell them i love them in all contexts, both happy and hard. That way every decision is framed in love.

Why do we assume that teaching a child to sleep is a *bad* thing? Like JeannetteL said, it can be done with gentleness and respect.

Addiesmom, do what you need to do for your sanity.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Vesper and Jeanette


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## clemclem44 (Nov 22, 2005)

Just this last week my 7 month old son decided he could no longer last longer than 1 1/2 hours before waking and he naturally wants the breast to go back to sleep. This was killing me. One night he was up 3 times in 4 hours.

We used to co-sleep all night long. Once I went back to work he got on a more regular schedule at night so he would go down at 7:00 after a bath and I didn't like the possibility of him falling out of our bed so I put him in his room at night. We had established that a mattress on the floor is THE WAY TO GO and sold the crib and the un-used bedding promptly.

My son goes down like a dream. No real issues. When he wakes it takes moments to nurse him to sleep. I used to fall asleep a lot in there...but the mattress (from an old hide-a-bed couch we had) was beginning to get awful hard on my hips. I then really tried to concentrate on nursing him, pulling him off and puttin in his pacifier (yes...we live for that thing and it has been a huge life saver for us. Not always for everyone...you will have to decide) but my son sometimes uses it and sometimes doesn't and we put it on a leash so he can (and does) put it in as needed when awake.

After the week from hell as I like to call it I would bring him back to bed with us earlier than I usually did. He honestly sleeps better when not next to me as it seems he wants to nurse even more in our bed. I did some reading about sleep in the baby book by the fab. sears pair and I did a few adjustments to his daytime routine. First, being the boy he is, he is so easily distracted when eating so I make sure my stay at home husband offers him food at least every 2 hours. Especially my pumped breast milk. He seems so obsessed with solid food that this can be a little difficult. I also noticed that my little man liked to take some seriouse power naps during the day (probably from inadequate sleep at night) so he would take a nice hour long one in the morning and then a sound/solid 3 hour one in the afternoon. I cut them both to one hour at a time and yes, I wake up my sleeping baby. That changed the waking almost instantly.

I also addressed his teething situation. He is teething...all the time it seems. So every time I go in when he wakes I give him a homeopathic dose for teething. It has chamomile in it and it's supposed to soothe him. I also put a little natural teething remedy on his gums when he goes down. If he has trouble going back to sleep I will use numbing ointment but I try not to do this often.

My son has only slept through the night (from 11-6) 2 times and that was last month. He isn't going to be doing it any time soon. But this won't last forever.

I had considered renting a hotel room for just one night. Just to get a full nights sleep and a well needed break. My husband could be on night duty with expressed breast milk and when I returned all refreshed he could nap. We didn't need it but it's still in my back pocket if I need it. Sometimes you just need a break.

Hopefully you and your baby will get to a good place. No 2 are alike...so much of what we talk about here may not really help too much but at least you know that most if not all of us don't have the magical baby that "sleeps through the night". It to me is make-believe.

good luck!


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## LeslieAWelch (Nov 24, 2005)

My son nursed every hour to hour and a half for the first six monts of his life as well. I understand the total sleep deprivation you are feeling as I scrambled to figure out ANYthing that would give me a few hours of rest to look after baby and 2 1/2 year old as well. This isn't a recommendation by any means, but I got so desperate, I put baby in his porta crib on his tummy against all advice and got 4 hours sleep! For some reason, sleeping on his tummy was really soothing to him and then helped me to space his feedings to four hourly during the day and got us into a better routine between feedings. I am not a regimented nurser, but he was 6 months after all and very capable of going for four hours between feed. He is now a healthy, still very energetic 8 year old. Good luck


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I am 33 and I am not capable of going 4 hours without eating or drinking.


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## greencurry (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm so happy to hear the OP is getting some sleep! I admire your dedication, honesty, and persistence.

A couple ideas in case anyone rdg is still struggling --
One PP touched on a concept that has worked well for our family in a variety of challenging situations. I think it's called association. The basic idea is to introduce a new consistent stimulus to replace the one you want to avoid. So in the OP's case, she mentioned her main goal was to help her child fall asleep without nursing / suckling. To begin building an *association*, she could play the same music each time she nursed, use a special blanket or fabric doll/ animal, maybe scented with a particular essential oil (lavender tends to induce relaxation)... and eventually the child begins to feel the same way when s/he encounters the new stimulus as she does when s/he's nursing, so at some point the mama can slowly transition from nursing to just leaving the child with another soothing presence.

Another important idea that's come up is *patience*. So many times when I've thought "this can't go on forever!" (using diapers, spreading food all over, pinching our faces when she felt frustrated...) one day I wake up and its over. Yeah!

And, as the OP modeled, *persistence. Reaching out, trying different things, studying your child's temperment* to understand what s/he really needs.

Also, one PP mentioned *alternate care*, which has been so helpful for our family. We have an official group that formed out of a local mom's mtg, but I also know lots of parents that trade on an informal basis. Our group spends plenty of time getting to know new friends to be confident that they will treat our children the way we do, so we can rest assured that they are well cared for.

And for mamas having trouble sleeping at abnormal hours, *progressive relaxation* is a great tool - even if it doesn't lead to sleep it reduces anxiety. Focus on one part of your body (I usually start with my head since that's where most of the stress is); first tense each muscle, then relax it. Move down through your whole body - I'm usually asleep before I get past my shoulders







. If you do make it to your feet, you can imagine soft light or ocean water pouring over your whole body from head to toe. It's very relaxing for me.

If you have time, and your older children are interested (or you don't have any), a few *yoga* postures can help relax parts of you that are especially tense.

I also have had success with the *meditative focus* (see PP) - I use the moon as my peaceful image to block out all others. It has a very cooling, creamy, nightime effect.


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## jmome (May 22, 2005)

I'm not sure if my experience will be helpful to you but we all sleep very well. My son slept with my husband and I until he was around 2 yrs then my lovely dh got his own room. We figured if anyone could understand where we all were at night it would be the 30 yr old. So now my daughter is 1 1/2 yrs, my son is 4 1/2yrs and I sleep with them in a queen size bed and my husband is in his room. I would suggest removing the clock from your bedroom. Nursing happens at any time. When my husband moved rooms he took the clock with him and I am much happier not knowing what time it is when I am awoken. Don't worry about sleeping in. If it happens I am grateful. When it doesn't I am not surprised.
I also wanted to congratulate you on trying something new. I think it is brave to realize what you had done isn't working and a new solution must be found. I wish you good sleep.
Meghan


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## sillysassfrass (May 10, 2005)

I read Pantley's book when DD was about seven months old. After a couple months of her waking to nurse 8-12 times a night.
We also do not co-sleep because it just doesn't work for us.

Pantley states in her book, if I remember correctly, that it is completely normal for babies this age to wake up several times in the night. THAT is not the problem. Really there is no problem... they just need to be taught how to go back to sleep. Obviously, CIO does not teach them anything but that no matter how hard they cry, you are not coming to comfort them. YUCK!

Your son just needs to have a balance of having his needs met and learning at his own pace, how to put himself to sleep.
Pantley is also very clear that you only have a sleep problem if it is actually causing problems...not because every old person you meet asks you if your baby is sleeping through the night!
It sounds like you ARE having a problem, if you and DH are not functioning well during the day.

The most helpful thing in the book to me was keeping a log. What time she woke up, what I/Dh did, how long she was awake, etc.
We started with not nursing her before like 2:30 a.m., and DH would go in and comfort her. Then we gradually moved the time back as her needs required. We got down to one nursing in the night and DH only needing to go in there once or twice if she was hot or cold or wet or something.
It took at least a month to see any real progress, but keeping it written down helped us to remember what we had tried and what worked/didn't.

HTH

Missi

mom to Arwen and baby due sometime soon!


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## sillysassfrass (May 10, 2005)

I also forgot to mention the importance of a bed time routine. Around the same time every night we gave dd a bath and then dressed for bed and cuddle time with daddy, and then i would nurse her.... without the tv being on! DH and I would sit and read together while she nursed and once she was sleeping, would transfer her to her crib.

The routine signals that it is time for bed. Now she is 15 mo. old and LOVES bed time. She actually asks to go to bed sometimes as early as 6 pm.

Anyway, parenting comes with so many trials and we must be patient and let it work patience in us, and know that the nights are long, but the years are so short!

HTH again,
Missi


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Hi Missi!

Good advice on the sleep log - I think we'll try that. After a particularly good or bad night, I'll try to think back about what we did or what I ate the day before, but my memory isn't too good these days







Now if I can just remember to write it down!

He was doing great for a couple weeks, then went back to waking around 12 or 1, then 3 or 4 and up at 5:30. Better than getting up every 1-2 hours, but still not ideal. I really need a good stretch of sleep for myself. I've been working hard at getting to bed by 9pm, but if he wakes at midnight, it's only 3 hours for me and feels like nothing. My mother loves to tell me how I slept for 12-13 straight hours when I was a baby, so I guess I've always just needed a lot of sleep. I envy those that can operate on 5 or 6 hours.

Thanks for the advice!


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