# Do you let your child say crap or freakin?



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

My DH and I ignored it when our children picked up these words from the neighbors (ages 6 and 11). It was not really an issue until my middle child went on a playdate and kept using the phrase "Holy Crap!" The other mother was not happy. I also am uncomfortable with children sayin "freakin" because it's a replacement for the other "f" word.

I did tell the neighbors to please not use those words when they are on our property.

What do you think of children using not quite cuss words?

BTW we don't let our children call people stupid, idiot, retard or say shut up either.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

We allow our kids to swear, but ask them not to do it in public, and explain why. My husband and I swear ourselves, and we're not going to be hypocrites.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Yes, but I would let them say sh!t or f*cking too, so I'm probably not the type of person you'd want input from.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

not the response I was expecting but okay....is age a consideration? Only when I became an adult did I cuss around my mom and I'm trying to curb it now because I feel like I'm disrespecting her because she doesn't cuss around me.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
We allow our kids to swear, but ask them not to do it in public, and explain why. My husband and I swear ourselves, and we're not going to be hypocrites.

















:


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 







not the response I was expecting but okay....is age a consideration? Only when I became an adult did I cuss around my mom and I'm trying to curb it now because I feel like I'm disrespecting her because she doesn't cuss around me.

I see where you are coming from-but I think kids do need some outlet-so I let my kids say crap and "freaking". I don't let them swear, but I know that I can't stop them forever. I know that I have a potty mouth to work on myself, and I don't want to be the "do as I say, not as I do" type of parent. I don't really care if other mothers are offended, personally.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Crap and freakin' don't bother me. I let the kids know that they are not okay for polite conversation, but at home or with friends I don't care.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Once my son hit middle school, all bets were off!

Hopefully my kids realize when it is appropriate to say 'bad' words. When they slide or forget, I remind them. I don't mind hearing crap or suck, but I don't want to hear cuss words at all! I know they say it around their friends - I'm not stupid. But I don't cuss at them and I don't want to hear it either.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

No, I wouldn't go along with 'freakin' or crap.

I don't talk that way and don't want them to.

I would (and have) asked kids playing in my house/yard not to talk that way.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Not in the house, at church or at school BUT I know they say these words with their friends. I just ask that they show respect in front of others. So far it has worked OK to use this approach.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
We allow our kids to swear, but ask them not to do it in public, and explain why. My husband and I swear ourselves, and we're not going to be hypocrites.









This is us too.


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

*sigh*

yes, we let them say it... sometimes. We don't have real clear boundaries about things like this, I'll admit.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

My middle son has Aspergers and I don't think it will work to allow the words in certain situations. It would have to be an all or nothing thing.

Also I agree that they will use this language when I'm not around.

The "real" cuss words are not okay in our house (except when I say them







)


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## Nodtveidt (Dec 21, 2006)

It takes an adult to realize that they're only words.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

I could make a sailer blush, so it would be pretty hypocritical to not allow my children to say tame words like crap or freakin'. I'm not totally above hypocrisy--they're not "allowed" to say real swear words but I don't punish them if they do. DS1 was got in trouble at school last week because him and his little buddy were whispering cuss words into each other's ears on the playground







Of course some kid had to go and rat them out.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nodtveidt* 
It takes an adult to realize that they're only words.


Weeelllll...... not really....

My 13 year old asked me the about a year ago why I cared about the words damn and hell. He said they were only cuss words because people decided they were cuss words.

'course, he asked me when he was 8 years old why he should care about a letter on the top of a piece of paper (in reference to school obviously).....

He's so much fun!


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
We allow our kids to swear, but ask them not to do it in public, and explain why. My husband and I swear ourselves, and we're not going to be hypocrites.









Yup, this is what we do also.

BTW, we don't allow our kids to call names (stupid, idiot, or genius in a sarcastic tone of voice).


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

My kids swear the same way an adult is free to. We don't have an issue with it at all. We've discussed tact and being mindful of the environment we're in and the people we are with. It's been fine.


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

I can't believe your post is here. My dd said "freakin" for the first time ever today and of course it was in front of grandpa.









I did not like the sound of it at all. She's only 4 and I don't think a 4 y.o. should be using a word that really is shorthand for the "f" word.

my dh uses "freakin" all the time so I know where she picked it up. I quietly told her that that was not really a nice thing to say... even though I know that daddy says it all the time. I don't think she'll say it again. She's pretty aware of that kind of thing.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

My kids say it and I hate it. but it is a grey area and they learned it from me. its really hard to enforce. They know to watch thier mouth in front of grandma and out in public but at home I gently correct them and ask them not to use those words and let them know that I am trying to stop also. they are free to correct me too.


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## NannyL (Oct 11, 2005)

The parents (esp. the dad) of the kids I nanny for swear a lot. I have started swearing more in the past two years of working for them. At 18 months old, the girl was using the F word appropriately - as in when she was mad - and she would say sh*t when she dropped something, etc. At 3 1/2 we are working on how they are not polite words to say out in public, but she's allowed to say them at home (as long as they aren't directed at another person). Like pp have said, it would be rather hypocritical to say that she couldn't, since she learned them from us.

I think it's perfectly fine to have rules about not swearing, but I think it should be a family rule, not a "just kids" rule. Besides, kids learn most by example anyway, and if you don't swear, and let them know that you don't think swearing is appropriate, they won't get into the habit as much.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't use the "real" swear words; neither does Joe... but I do say crap, freaking, mother grubber, etc, with reckless abandon. I do NOT say these words to "replace" swear words... when I say freaking, I am not thinking of the F bomb, I am thinking freaking... so I don't get that argument. If I wanted to say the F word, I'd just say it, ya know??









He can't use any word disrespectfully though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

"Crap" bothers me slightly. "Freaking" doesn't bother me at all. Yeah - it's a substitute for the "big" F-word, but I don't care about substitutes. I don't get upset about them using these words, but do explain that there are places where they're not appropriate. DS1 can say either of them. I think he's old enough (14) to know what he's saying, and deal with the consequences if he offends somebody. I'm very sure he swears when we're not around, too.

I swear too much, but I'm getting better all the time. It's something I started working on years ago, but was already the well-established habit of two decades, so it's taking a lot of work.

ETA: We also don't allow "stupid", "retard", etc. Sarcastic "compliments" are also forbidden.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I have no problem with "freakin'" - yeah, it is a replacement word, but then so is "gosh, darn it", "goodness" "oh heck". Freakin' is pretty tame in my book.

Crap is a little more dodgy to me. I try to avoid it.

Call me old fashioned, but I hate it when I hear small children swear (I mean under 5s). It really really bugs me and I admit it, I think less of the child and the parent of that child. I do understand there may be a strong philosophical reason for not restricting a child's ability to swear, but in my personal experience, most small kids who do swear are not exposed to swearing due to a conscious decision (like most of the posters on this thread) but due to lack of consideration or even laziness by the parents.

We try to make a point of NOT swearing in front of the kids - I often replace F with Frelling (a la Farscape) or Frackin' (a la BSG). I try hard to not even say God damn it or other phases that may offend other people. Because those phrases DO offend people - people who I care about, even if I am not offended by those same phrases.

I can see that my kids (who are quite young), who don't know any differently, will be treated less kindly and with less tolerance by neighbors, teachers, and others if they use swear words in front of them. We can bemoan it all we want to - but I don't care - part of my job is to give my kids skills to live in this world and if that means following certain societal rules to make their lives easier, we will do that.

I pick and choose the rules we follow and the rules we don't. The "no swearing for young children" rule is one I see no benefit in breaking and a lot of benefit in following.

Your mileage may vary.

Siobhan


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Just want to clairify that my children will also understand the difference between home/friends and at grandma's house etc. I think kids take their cues from us, and while we swear sometimes at home, we generally don't in public.

Also, I figure if they are "allowed" to swear it won't be this big forbidden thing. I swore like a sailor as a kid becuase it was a grown up thing and I wasn't allowed. I think the novelty would have worn off if it was treated just like any other word at home.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

My kids do use these words but it's a real problem for our family.
I have older kids and their language rubs off on my five year old. When we go to get togethers with her friends (and all the mom's have children who are 5 and under) I'm super afraid Lucia will say something that would shock them. (Frickin or crap or worse yet that something sucks or is gay.)
We don't allow real swear words from the kids.
I think kids swearing is gross.







:
But my Dh thinks kids who swear are hipsters....


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

It isn't acceptable to me. I don't allow it. I don't punish it, and don't make a big deal about it but it simply isn't acceptable to me. Words have power, and understanding that power should be used in a discriminating way is something that comes with time and maturity.

I do have a potty mouth. I try to tame it. My DH totally doesn't. My 2.5 year old just got over a phase of singing, "Oh For God's Sakes! Oh For God's Sakes!" over and over. You may assume who she got it from. I just hoped she would get over it before my hardcore pentecostal MIL came to visit.

I deal with it by telling them the young kid version of the first paragraph.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

We don't curse and honestly, I think it sounds really trashy. So it's not something my children will be allowed to do around me. Obviously I can't control what they do when I'm not there.

Words like crap I wouldn't really make a big deal out of. Depends on how often it's said. Holy crap wouldn't be allowed either. Freakin' is a no-go. It just sounds dumb.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

We have things that we say in our house but our four-year-old knows not to say in front of other people. So far she has no interest in swearing but I think that's because I swear so much.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Dh and I were just talking about this tonight. My dd (3 on Sunday) said "f#!" and stomped her foot in a store when she and I were holiday shopping. We don't curse a lot at home, but we obviously do some, and she picked it up. I reacted as if she had said "No" or some more appropriate word, and just tried to downplay it. She's never said it since.

(I find it funny though, that she was angry because I said we couldn't nurse in the very crowded store and needed to wait until we got to a cafe where I could sit down. How many kids can curse about having to wait to nurse?)

Now she's picked up "Darn it" from my mother. The "darn it" though, my mother tried to stop her from saying, so now she's been giggling and running around shouting it. I guess the lesson is to downplay it if it happens once with a young child and not get up in arms about it or it'll really sink in, "darn it!"









I also, though, prefer butt, poop, pee, vagina, and penis (all of which she knows) to more cutsey terms. No one is allowed to use insult words though, nor am I okay with things directed at people/animals like "$!% you," including "Darn you."

I would never let her call someone or something "gay," "queer," or "witch" as an insult. Especially being that family members are all of those. I consider those as offensive as the n-word, honestly.

In short, no personal insults are acceptable, but undirected curses are tolerable here.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I rarely swear and my dh swears a lot, so it is a problem for me. I didn't allow the kids to swear when they were younger, but now that they are grown, they swear like their dad........sigh.........I hate it and am pretty offended when people swear around me. I just don't like it.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

well-l-l-l... i think it has a little to do with the age of the child, and a lot to do with whether or not they can remember to NOT use those words in particular situations. i mean, i don't want to give my kids a complex about "omg he said a baaaaad word!!" like a lot of kids seem to have







--but i certainly want them to know that those words are taken as impolite by most people, etc etc. I try not to make a big deal out of it, and they seem to just take it all in sride. They're nearly 5 and nearly 8, and I never hear them using bad words, tho I'm quite sure they are aware of them. i think they see phrases like "shut up!" or "stupid" as one level of rude, and then using cuss words as the next level up....heh


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nodtveidt* 
It takes an adult to realize that they're only words.

You're right. They are only words and it does take an adult to realize that. I not only let my children swear but they are allowed to say whatever they want. That includes racial slurs, degrading and humiliating comments about overweight and mentally and physically challenged people etc... They're only words after all and I, as an adult, realize that. Who am I to impost societies impostitions regarding respect and courtesy on them anyway?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Holy snark, Batman.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I've resigned myself to the fact that my kids are probably going to be the ones teaching the 'bad words' to the other kids.

DH and I have gotten better about it, but it doesn't bother me at all, I don't know that I'd even always catch it to correct it!

I have explained to my kids that some people don't like to hear certain words used (Mama doesn't like to hear the kids call each other names, for example...and Grandma's eyes bug out if a little someone says 'dammit'), so when we are over at another person's house or have a guest over we need to use polite words.

I think I'd be more likely to discipline my kids for breaking the rules in their host's home or treating a guest rudely than for language per se, though sometimes certain words might be off limits at other people's houses and in front of other people. They're old enough to get that different places have different rules, so it hasn't been a problem....yet.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
You're right. They are only words and it does take an adult to realize that. I not only let my children swear but they are allowed to say whatever they want. That includes racial slurs, degrading and humiliating comments about overweight and mentally and physically challenged people etc... They're only words after all and I, as an adult, realize that. Who am I to impost societies impositions regarding respect and courtesy on them anyway?

Um, HUGE difference between letting a child say crap (which happens to just be a reference to some guy who made toilets back in the day) and letting a child use racial slurs.

That said, I try not to swear. I think there are more intelligent ways to express my emotions. My kids have on occasion said a swear word picked up by myself or mainly DH who can swear quite a bit. We talk about other words that can be used instead and ask that they not use those words at school, etc.

Freaking I can understand why people don't like it but I don't understand how crap is a swear word. It is a euphemism for poop. Thomas Crapper was a guy who made toilets. This is an odd topic to come upon because I just watched a show on the history of bathrooms on the History Channel last night. I am such a dork.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Crap is no big deal that is the word we use most of the time when we are talking about poop







as in "I need to go take a crap" it isnt even close to being a swear word.

We dont use cuss words around the kids (unless I stub my toe







: ) seriously I do the best I can to not say bad words because to us it is a sin. But crap dosnt count and technicaly neither does freakin I just dont like how it sounds.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
Who am I to impost societies impostitions regarding respect and courtesy on them anyway?









Uhhhmmm you are the PARENT that is what makes it your responsability to raise your kids to respect others and that includes not calling people names.







:







:


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I swear a lot and my kids know all the swear words. If used in context like "Shit!" when something falls or whatever, then I'm OK with it. If they are just saying the word to say the word, then I tell them that it is inappropriate. I also let them know that swear words are mostly for adults and when they are adults they can decide if they want to use them or not. I give them the reason that most people do not like to hear little kids using swear words and that they can actually get into trouble in places like school if they use them.

This has worked really well for us. My kids rarely use swear words within my earshot and I've not heard anything from school or daycare about using inappropriate language. And like I said, if used in a way that makes sense, I don't say anything about it.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

No, because I think that the words are too close to cussing.

"Crap" is borderline, but I still don't think it sounds nice.

I believe that an intelligent person should be able to express themselves without profanity. That being said, I know I am not perfect. I will sometimes let one fly. But then I apologize to my children and do my best not to do it again. If one of the boys says a swear word, we don't make a huge issue of it. We simply tell them that the word doesn't sound nice and that other people may be offended by it.

I do not believe that teaching your children to be considerate of others or to express themselves in a nicer way is being a hypocrite. That is like saying that because I tried smoking and drinking when I was a teen, that I should just *allow* my kids to do it, IMO.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith*
Who am I to impost societies impostitions regarding respect and courtesy on them anyway?









Uhhhmmm you are the PARENT that is what makes it your responsability to raise your kids to respect others and that includes not calling people names.







:







:

I think she was being sarcastic, not serious, when saying this.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Just realized I wrote the same thing as the OP above me. Sorry.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

A month or so ago, my 4.5 year old, growing impatient with our errand-running, said, "Mom, I wanna get out of this f---ing car right now!"

After a minute of biting my lips to keep from laughing out loud, I first empathized with his frustration, and then explained that this particular word was one some people might not like to hear, and that he should be careful about when and where he used it.

He hasn't said it since.

You know, I do think it is important to be respectful of others. We talk all the time about what it means to be kind to other people. If I heard him intentionally using his words to hurt someone, I would certainly not let that pass.

But while I value courtesy, I value freedom of expression too. And I guess I have a lot of confidence in my son's ability to pick up on subtleties of context. He is honestly more socially confident and skilled than I am in some ways


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## mommasuz (Jun 19, 2003)

My kids know there are words they say (and hear) at home that are just for the house. They do say crap and freakin, and I'd much rather hear that then stupid, idiot, etc, which I don't "allow". Mostly they say bad words because they hear them from me, usually direceted towards other drivers (LOL) but I'm sure part of it is from remembering when I was 4 or 5, heard the word "sh*t" for the first time, repeating it, and having my mom shove a bar of soap in my mouth. I also remember her using liquid soap (wtf!) on my sister when there wasn't a bar around.


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## mommasuz (Jun 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 
... explained that this particular word was one some people might not like to hear, and that he should be careful about when and where he used it.

You know, I do think it is important to be respectful of others. We talk all the time about what it means to be kind to other people. If I heard him intentionally using his words to hurt someone, I would certainly not let that pass.

Yes, same here.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

We don't let our kids cuss. I don't do it, and dh doesn't do it around women or children. (Apparently he does it when he's out with the guys).


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon* 
I think she was being sarcastic, not serious, when saying this.

Oh ok totally missed that














:


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Well, neither word is all that horrible, so I wouldn't totally freak out. Otoh, I don't allow my kids to use those words either, at least not freely. It's not that we expressly forbid them or punish for using them or whatever, but we do discourage them. I err on the side of teaching my kids to avoid language that other people might find offensive. Cr*p alone is less offensive than holy cr*p, b/c someone could possibly imply religious overtones that are derogatory (even though I think most people use it just randomly and mindlessly w/o any religious intent at all).

My way of thinking about it for our kids is that it's best to teach them our highest ideals for language as young children, and those ideals are based on respect for others. I encourage the kids to think about whether words would be offensive or disrespectful to others and if so, is it really necessary or important to continue to use them? If there's another way to express yourself equally well, then please choose that instead. A simple way to explain that to kids is that it's like littering or pollution. By choosing certain words, you make the environment unpleasant for other people. So consider whether you want to make that choice or another one.

I don't want to start enforcing tons of rigid "can't say this, can't say that" regulations on my kids and make them feel censored. I guess I worry that by doing so, I'll make the words more attractive to them by creating "forbidden fruit" iykwim. So I am hoping that this approach will be more fruitful in the long run. It is a better reflection of my own feelings about language anyway. For me, I try really hard to keep my language clean, including questionable words.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

We don't make an issue of "bad" language in our household. DS knows he isn't to say those things at school -- we explained it to him as people have different levels of comfort when it comes to words like that. But in our house, we don't have any words that are off-limits.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

My son is only 4 so....No, I wouldn't let him say those words. The worst ds says is "Oh my gosh!".








Once he's older (12?), I won't mind if he says 'crap'.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
We allow our kids to swear, but ask them not to do it in public, and explain why. My husband and I swear ourselves, and we're not going to be hypocrites.









That's us as well. But we don't allow name calling like stupid, retard, or use of "shut up".

I've also told dd that when you use profanity, it's because of a lack of vocabularly, that includes mine and SO's use. She considers swearing a sign of low intelligence and doesn't do it herself, and rolls her eyes at us when we swear


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

my kids will say crap and friggin because we say it, but i do tell them to watch what they say and to who!


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

We personally find any word within the realm of cursing unacceptable in our home and from our mouths. I am teaching my children to express themseves, even their frustrations in a more diplomatic manner, rather than resorting to foul language. There are thousands of words they may use, words that can allow them to clearly state their feelings, and that have more impact than swears. I find cursing really unnecessary.


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## cebmom97 (Jan 10, 2007)

We don`t use shut up, or call people stupid or retard but I have no problem with my kids saying freakin or crap as long as they are not making people uncomfortable. They know that there is a time and place that it is not appropriate to use certain language and they usually follow the rules pretty well.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm guilty of using both of those words often. I can swear like a fisherman, for sure. My well-mannered midwestern husband NEVER even "pretend" swears. But, we live in maine, so when in Rome... yah, ds says crap (in reference to bad food) and freakin' (when he's mad at the dogs, as in "freaking Ryley ate my breakfast"). But, he only says them at home. And the little bugger is the first to tattle at preschool when another child uses either of those words or other almost-swears, etc.


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
I don't want to start enforcing tons of rigid "can't say this, can't say that" regulations on my kids and make them feel censored. I guess I worry that by doing so, I'll make the words more attractive to them by creating "forbidden fruit" iykwim. So I am hoping that this approach will be more fruitful in the long run.

I think you have a point. DS1 was about two years old when he started chanting "f**k, f**k, f**kety-f**k" over and over again in his carseat. My ex was about to flip out, and I just told him not to worry about it. I turned to ds1, and said, "that's not a very nice word to say". He kept chanting it all the way home (I must confess that both my ex and I were having a great deal of difficulty not cracking up) - about a 10 minute ride. I never heard him say the word again until about a year ago, when I went up to get him and a friend for supper, and heard him swear while talking to his friend.

I'm sure he swears while with his friends, but he seems to have learned when it's totally inappropriate...he never swears in front of me, dh, the little ones, or extended family and I've had no complaints from the school or anything. If he wants to repeat a song lyrice or conversation that includes swearing, he'll ask me "can I say the F-word, because it's in this song?" or whatever. He certainly doesn't swear as much as I did at his age.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nodtveidt* 
It takes an adult to realize that they're only words.

I want to respond to this. Word are , in fact, not "only words". They have incredible, incredible power. Words were use to dehumanize slaves, and make them feel inhuman in order for slave masters to dominate them. Words were used by Hitler to create a following so strong that 11 million people were put to death by those that would follow his words. Words were used by Martin Luther King, Jr. to ignite a movement in this country that changed our nation forever...

Words are not only words. Not by a longshot.

The words you use tell other people who you are.

I don't have an answer for the original post, but using profanity does have ramifications for the user. They may be consequences that the user doesn't care about, but there are consequences.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Wow, thanks for all the responses. There were some good points made for either choice and I am still undecided. Like I stated earlier unless I decide anything goes I think I'll have to have off-limit words because my child with Aspergers can not tell when it is appropriate and when it's not.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
Wow, thanks for all the responses. There were some good points made for either choice and I am still undecided. Like I stated earlier unless I decide anything goes I think I'll have to have off-limit words because my child with Aspergers can not tell when it is appropriate and when it's not.









Knowing that you have a child w/ Asperger's makes a big difference. In that case, I think you would be doing your child the greatest favor socially by teaching the complete avoidance of swear words, including questionable ones.

If your child w/ AS is unable to discern the finer nuances of social behavior, as is typical for AS, then giving them a solid set of guidelines is going to be the most practical teaching for them. It would be simpler and less anxiety-provoking for them if they had a specific rule than if they had to try to work out the social context and cues on their own. For words like cr*p which some people consider perfectly ordinary and benign, but others consider crude or vulgar, some kids w/ AS would not necessarily find it obvious or easy to differentiate between using the word around someone's grandparent or using the word in your home. And the inability to read social feedback cues might lead to worse consequences, social ostracism, negative reactions from other adults, labelling your child as ill-mannered, etc.







And it wouldn't be the child's fault at all.

My philosophy of teaching kids to consider other's feelings and act appropriately is going to be a lot harder for a child who has limited abilities to discern social appropriateness. I don't know your child, or your child's level of functioning, of course, so take my advice for whatever its worth and ignore it if it doesn't apply. But it seems to me that in the case of a child w/ AS it would be the most helpful to the child to simply teach them to avoid the use of potentially offensive words. That's one less social obstacle the child will have to struggle with.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I pick and choose the rules we follow and the rules we don't. The "no swearing for young children" rule is one I see no benefit in breaking and a lot of benefit in following.

I suppose this cost/ benefit analysis depends on your household culture and your kids' personalities. Banning swearing in our home would (a) require a good amount of effort on my part, to avoid hypocrisy; (b) would likely involve instant rebellion in my oldest, just because he enjoys rebelling (he rarely swears now, incidentally, and never out of the house as far as I know); and (c) would also involve a lot of explanation about which words are swears and why and what they mean, which we've thusfar managed to avoid! For a kid who can understand that there are different rules at home and out of the home- which in my experience most kids, even differently-abled kids, can by the age of 3- allowing cursing at home is a reasonable solution, with significant benefits, including the avoidance of power struggles.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
Knowing that you have a child w/ Asperger's makes a big difference. In that case, I think you would be doing your child the greatest favor socially by teaching the complete avoidance of swear words, including questionable ones.

If your child w/ AS is unable to discern the finer nuances of social behavior, as is typical for AS, then giving them a solid set of guidelines is going to be the most practical teaching for them. It would be simpler and less anxiety-provoking for them if they had a specific rule than if they had to try to work out the social context and cues on their own. For words like cr*p which some people consider perfectly ordinary and benign, but others consider crude or vulgar, some kids w/ AS would not necessarily find it obvious or easy to differentiate between using the word around someone's grandparent or using the word in your home. And the inability to read social feedback cues might lead to worse consequences, social ostracism, negative reactions from other adults, labelling your child as ill-mannered, etc.







And it wouldn't be the child's fault at all.

My philosophy of teaching kids to consider other's feelings and act appropriately is going to be a lot harder for a child who has limited abilities to discern social appropriateness. I don't know your child, or your child's level of functioning, of course, so take my advice for whatever its worth and ignore it if it doesn't apply. But it seems to me that in the case of a child w/ AS it would be the most helpful to the child to simply teach them to avoid the use of potentially offensive words. That's one less social obstacle the child will have to struggle with.

Thank you. ITA. With my other two children I guess I would have had to decide if it was really a big deal but because my middle son (who is 6) would be the one who wouldn't/couldn't use the words in appropriate settings, I need to set boundaries for all three of my children and that would include not using crap and freakin. Thank you for helping me solidify my decision.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Unless the situation involves sudden, painful injury, or something equally surprising and terrible, I think cursing sounds trashy and vulgar, and indicates a real deficiency in vocabulary skills. I don't allow it in my house. That goes for "freakin" and "crap" as well.

(But, believe me, I would rather hear a loud, heartfelt, "Shit!" any day than to have my kids casually use the word "suck". I cannot abide that word. Its current casual acceptance is a symbol of the decline of civilization. Just call me a cranky ex-English teacher.)


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I don't say "crap" or "freakin"

DH doesn't say "crap" or freakin"

And DS is not allowed to say "crap" or "freakin"

or any other cuss words.

"Oh No!"







is an appropriate response for him at this time.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

We are super strict about bad language. So no, those words are not allowed.

They can watch/ hear things with bad language as long as they understand: do not repeat bad words.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
We don't curse and honestly, I think it sounds really trashy. So it's not something my children will be allowed to do around me. Obviously I can't control what they do when I'm not there.

Words like crap I wouldn't really make a big deal out of. Depends on how often it's said. Holy crap wouldn't be allowed either. Freakin' is a no-go. It just sounds dumb.

I agree with this.


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## Fiestabeth (Aug 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Unless the situation involves sudden, painful injury, or something equally surprising and terrible, I think cursing sounds trashy and vulgar, and indicates a real deficiency in vocabulary skills. I don't allow it in my house. That goes for "freakin" and "crap" as well.

(But, believe me, I would rather hear a loud, heartfelt, "Shit!" any day than to have my kids casually use the word "suck". I cannot abide that word. Its current casual acceptance is a symbol of the decline of civilization. Just call me a cranky ex-English teacher.)

The decline of civilization or just the evolution of language? I love in the movie _Little Women_, where Meg tells Jo, "Don't say awful, Jo. It's slang." And Amy also chides Jo when she says, "Blast these wretched skirts!"







I'm assuming there was some research done on the part of the movie makers to determine that those words were deemed "questionable" during the time period the movie is set in.

I think that as words become more prolific in daily usage they become more socially acceptable. It seems that when I was younger the words "damn" and "hell" were frowned upon much more than they are now.

Your post made me giggle. You remind me of my ex-English teacher.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

This thread is great. Most of you would be so horrified at my house.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisie125* 
Yes, but I would let them say sh!t or f*cking too, so I'm probably not the type of person you'd want input from.









Me too!! The only words I don't allow are racial/homophobic/misogynist slurs.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
This thread is great. Most of you would be so horrified at my house.


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## EStraiton (Sep 6, 2005)

No way.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
(But, believe me, I would rather hear a loud, heartfelt, "Shit!" any day than to have my kids casually use the word "suck". I cannot abide that word. Its current casual acceptance is a symbol of the decline of civilization. Just call me a cranky ex-English teacher.)

My English teacher used to tell us, "Vacuum cleaners suck."







I'll never forget that. Joe's cousins say things suck, Joe doesn't generally unless he is with them. I have been known to say that a situation sucks the big one- I guess that is kind of vulgar, but it works for me.









Joe's latest swear is, "Oh, tater tots." He got it from that half naked sponge known as Bob.







There is another thing he says from that show but I can't think what it is at the moment...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
This thread is great. Most of you would be so horrified at my house.









I bet I WOULD be.







:

Invite me so we can see!







:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Joe's latest swear is, "Oh, tater tots." He got it from that half naked sponge known as Bob.







There is another thing he says from that show but I can't think what it is at the moment...

Ahh the Sponge is king!

Quote:

I bet I WOULD be.







:

Invite me so we can see!







:








That would be cool! We could eat great stuff and the kids and I could swear incessantly. Nahh it's not that bad really. Unless they are playing the PS2 and it's going really _sucky_.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Yeah! Woo hoo! I can remember being your kids' age, playing Nintendo- more than once the controller was thrown AT the tv...

Tartar sauce!







that's the other one...


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Unless the situation involves sudden, painful injury, or something equally surprising and terrible, I think cursing sounds trashy and vulgar, and indicates a real deficiency in vocabulary skills. I don't allow it in my house. That goes for "freakin" and "crap" as well.

(But, believe me, I would rather hear a loud, heartfelt, "Shit!" any day than to have my kids casually use the word "suck". I cannot abide that word. Its current casual acceptance is a symbol of the decline of civilization. )

ITA!


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

We haven't made up our mind about specific words (such as crap or freakin), but overall, we are not going to allow swearing and bad language. DS is learning how to talk now, and we are making a big effort not to curse.

Personally, I think a person who is cursing typically sounds like a person who is uneducated and has a small vocabulary and can't express themselves with some intelligence.

I'm not going to "freak out" if someone were to curse if they dropped something on their toe or something, but just slipping curse words into everyday conversation is NOT acceptable.

Also, I just need to vent about kids today saying "retarded" and "that's so gay" and "that sucks". WHAT IS UP WITH THAT AND WHY/HOW HAS THAT BECOME SOMEWHAT ACCEPTABLE?!?!?!?!

Grrrrrr. I think our society is already pretty bad-mannered, and I don't see why our family should contribute to the decline.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't like "freakin'" because to me it sounds trendy and I'm kind of a snob that way. As for other swear words I tell the kids that often when people consider a word improper it's because it has negative connotations for them and the respectful thing to do is refrain from using it in their presence, and sometimes that goes for groups of people in certain contexts. So there are some words like "crap" that are okay in our house (and my son's derivative, "crapus"







,) but not really in grandma's house. And that if you go somewhere new, you should hold off using these questionable words until you have a feel for what's appropriate. But that generally it's relative, the sounds in themselves aren't bad, it's the intention behind it that matters. So nothing derogatory is allowed, period.

Quote:

I've also told dd that when you use profanity, it's because of a lack of vocabularly, that includes mine and SO's use.
That may be true for your daughter and yourself, but it's not always the reason people swear. In a past life I was profusely profane, and I can assure you that it wasn't for lack of being capable of speaking eloquently.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I have to agree that I have never understood the argument that someone who swears must have a limited vocabulary. It might be true for some people, but it's just totally inaccurate to say that _all_ people that use swear words are incapable of being eloquent.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I have to agree that I have never understood the argument that someone who swears must have a limited vocabulary. It might be true for some people, but it's just totally inaccurate to say that _all_ people that use swear words are incapable of being eloquent.

True. I still think that the majority of swearing sounds idiotic most of the time, but who can't appreciate a well-timed good curse word.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
This thread is great. Most of you would be so horrified at my house.









My thoughts exactly!!!


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Once my son hit middle school, all bets were off!

Hopefully my kids realize when it is appropriate to say 'bad' words. When they slide or forget, I remind them. I don't mind hearing crap or suck, but I don't want to hear cuss words at all! I know they say it around their friends - I'm not stupid. But I don't cuss at them and I don't want to hear it either.

I don't freak out when dss (11) says it by accident. I don't like cuss words and I don't like crap, freakin', oh snap or what the --? When kids say this, the real cuss word pops in my head as if they had said it so there is no difference to me. If dss or one of my students said it, I'd say, I don't like to hear that language. I'm sure he says it around his friends, but that's where you are supposed to use it. You need to learn when it is ok to say it and when it is not.

It was upsetting to hear my three year old tell me "Dinner looks so freakin' good!" so I guess I do say that word occasionally. Working on it.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
That may be true for your daughter and yourself, but it's not always the reason people swear. In a past life I was profusely profane, and I can assure you that it wasn't for lack of being capable of speaking eloquently.

I guess I should have explained that more clearly. When SO and I swear, it's generally a circumstance where we're not concerned with how eloquent we are in getting our point across, if you know what I mean









Although I do think it sounds awfully trashy to hear someone throwing the f-bomb after every second word they say.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
I guess I should have explained that more clearly. When SO and I swear, it's generally a circumstance where we're not concerned with how eloquent we are in getting our point across, if you know what I mean









 Ohh yea, I get what you're saying there. Sometimes when I am swearing I just don't care how eloquent it's coming out. I just want to say what I want to say.









Quote:

Although I do think it sounds awfully trashy to hear someone throwing the f-bomb after every second word they say.
 It can get old I agree... and I swear daily so that's saying something. It's not just that it's the "F" word or some other swear either, IMO. Any word that people say over and over and over again gets tired I think. People who use "like" 10 times in 2 sentences come to mind.


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nodtveidt* 
It takes an adult to realize that they're only words.

I don't know why exactly, but this irritates me. It sounds condescending.

I don't know. For me, I have gone against the social grain in so many ways, I don't want my children to be outcast because their mama doesn't give a flying fu..... crap.... what other people think, in most respects.

However, in my family culture children must be respectful and while I dont' subscribe to all the ways children are expected to show their respect, it crosses MY boundaries to hear my children using cuss words. Doesn't have to be rational... that's just the way it is at my house. Oh, and I'm an adult.


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## usolyfan (Jul 2, 2006)

No way! I don't swear and I certainly don't believe it is right for children to swear.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I have to agree that I have never understood the argument that someone who swears must have a limited vocabulary. It might be true for some people, but it's just totally inaccurate to say that _all_ people that use swear words are incapable of being eloquent.

I agree as well. I write professionally, my vocabulary is not at all lacking. I just like to swear.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I swear - see nothing wrong with it and see nothing wrong with my kids doing it. Swearing is expression and can be quite creative (most writers and poets and academics - people who know words - swear a lot).

My parents had a "there is no such thing as bad words" policy for us, but we weren't allowed to insult people and we understood that different words were appropriate for different situations (i.e. though I said shit etc at home, I never said it in kindergarden class or at grandmas).

It makes no sense that "shit" would be worse "crap," but it is ture that one is more socially accpetable than the other.

Anyway, hopw all the different perspectives on this help.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Dh and I do not swear or substitute swear. As the kids get older, we certainly won't forbid them, just ask them not to swear around us or anyone else who they respect (ie teachers, grandparents, friends' parents). Right now, they're just into joking potty-talk, which they are allowed to use to their hearts' content in the bathroom only.

For dh, swearing in anger is particularly problematic. He grew up in a violent household, and swear words are connected with being out-of-control in his mind. For me, swear words can definately raise the stress of a situation.

Once in a blue moon, a well chosen swear can be hilarious in a joking tone and context. But in frustration, as an insult, in a blaming tone--that stuff is out.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I have to agree that I have never understood the argument that someone who swears must have a limited vocabulary. It might be true for some people, but it's just totally inaccurate to say that _all_ people that use swear words are incapable of being eloquent.

Oh, I completely agree that people who lace their everyday conversation with curse words may well be capable of eloquence. They just don't come across that way.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

The difference for me is that I don't think swearing automatically = limited vocabulary or "low class" talk, etc. I think someone can say "damn" or some other word (I won't push my luck by typing them here even though they are related to the convo lol) in casual conversation and not sound bad at all. I guess it just depends on background, culture and so on.


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

words that I'm ok with my seven yo saying in our house, just around family:

fart
crap
ass
Polish and Spanish words for "sh!t"

she makes references to "the f word" (she knows what it is but really wants to know what it _means_ now that she's _seven_)
Just the other day she learned sh!t, thanks to Gwen Stefani's bananas. I told her what it meant and she wouldn't stop laughing. I told her she could sing it in her room, just don't say it in front of her three year old sister or at school.
She asked if she could think it in her head and I told her she could do that all she wanted.









we don't tolerate name calling.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl3* 
For dh, swearing in anger is particularly problematic. He grew up in a violent household, and swear words are connected with being out-of-control in his mind. For me, swear words can definately raise the stress of a situation.
.

I totally agree with this. I also connect swear words with being out of control. I can argue without them anyday. If dh starts using them in anger, I cannot continue to communicate with him. I think kids need to understand the impact those words may have on others.

Maybe it doesn't make "sense" that shit is worse than crap, but as a society, I think we have set aside certain words that have more power to show when we are angier, more frustrated, or trying to insult. I think kids need to learn when it is appropriate (in my mind, when joking friends, etc.) and when it is likely to insult, show disrespect or hurt feelings.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Not in my presence, no. If she and her friends choose to speak that way amongst themselves, that okay, but "crap" isn't okay in front of me. Freaking is fine.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

If I wanted my kids not to say "crap," I would have to undo 7 yrs worth of modeling.

I'm not fond of "freaking," but I wouldn't ban it.

We ask the kids not to name call, insult people, or use God's name in vain. Beyond that, we don't really care.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't give a crap and I don't see what the big freakin' deal is. Those of you who think cursing belies a lack of creativity obviously don't have Irish grandmothers. Jesus Peter Murphy.

Seriously though, in our house it's all about context.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

To us, words are just words. We swear, and I have absolutely no problem if my children do. Ironically, at almost 9 and 4 they don't at all. But most definatly I would not ban "freakin" or "crap." They don't even register on my swear-o-meter honestly.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Oh, I was going to say earlier, I find the hierarchy of "bad words" baffling. My mother insisted that "dang" was bad, but "darn" was ok. They're both euphemisms/allusions to the same very mild "swear word." So why is one worse? My mom also banned fart, a very respectable Germanic word for flatulence. Instead, we had to say we "tooted" which if anything is more disgusting as it's more descriptive. My DH's mom banned both fart and "fluff" which I guess means fart where she comes from. She'd get mad at them for reading the label of that gooey "Marshmallow Fluff" at the store. Oh also, my mom banned "butt" as a swear word, so we were only allowed to sit on our "bottoms." It all gets so ornate and I just have to say, why bother?


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## Lesley77 (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe* 
I swear - see nothing wrong with it and see nothing wrong with my kids doing it. Swearing is expression and can be quite creative (most writers and poets and academics - people who know words - swear a lot).

My parents had a "there is no such thing as bad words" policy for us, but we weren't allowed to insult people and we understood that different words were appropriate for different situations (i.e. though I said shit etc at home, I never said it in kindergarden class or at grandmas).

It makes no sense that "shit" would be worse "crap," but it is ture that one is more socially accpetable than the other.

Anyway, hopw all the different perspectives on this help.

ITA. My son (2 3/4) is in a very concrete phase right now, so he doesn't say them and gets aghast when he hears "stupid" on the king of sponges. "Mama! That's not a nice word!" But as he gets older I'm sure he'll better understand the nuances of society/household and I won't have a problem with it at home.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I have read most of this thread. I have to admit that I swear sometimes when I'm angry and my brain shuts down. But for me the bottom line is this... whether I ENJOY swearing or not (I don't), it is out of RESPECT to the HEARER that I speak to them in a manner that is not offensive. For some people, swearing is offensive, and therefore should never be spoken... whether that is in front of a child, a family member, or a stranger. I don't think any swear words should ever be used, even in anger. It's crass and I think it shows that you do not know how to respect the person you are talking to. I don't care what your level of education is or what your degree is in, swearing is not about YOU, it's about who hears the words. If I get angry and use a cuss word, I've just shown that I'm no longer respecting the person I'm talking to. I honestly don't see a difference between cussing and racial, social, or sexual slurs because SOMEONE is being disrespected.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I have read most of this thread. I have to admit that I swear sometimes when I'm angry and my brain shuts down. But for me the bottom line is this... whether I ENJOY swearing or not (I don't), it is out of RESPECT to the HEARER that I speak to them in a manner that is not offensive. For some people, swearing is offensive, and therefore should never be spoken... whether that is in front of a child, a family member, or a stranger. I don't think any swear words should ever be used, even in anger. It's crass and I think it shows that you do not know how to respect the person you are talking to. I don't care what your level of education is or what your degree is in, swearing is not about YOU, it's about who hears the words. If I get angry and use a cuss word, I've just shown that I'm no longer respecting the person I'm talking to. I honestly don't see a difference between cussing and racial, social, or sexual slurs because SOMEONE is being disrespected.
















:


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I honestly don't see a difference between cussing and racial, social, or sexual slurs because SOMEONE is being disrespected.

I can't agree with this, because some people feel disrespected and offended by me nursing my 3 year old--IN PUBLIC!--or at words like "nurse," "breastfeeding," "nipple," "pagan," "polyamorous," "bisexual," etc. I'm not entirely responsible for other people's reactions to my words, including those they have decided are curses. Sometimes that's their problem.

There's a clear difference to me between insulting someone and offending someone because of their own issues. Insults have malicious intent, calling people "gay" or "retarded" or "stupid" or "poopyhead." I don't take the names of other's gods in vain, because I see why that's insulting. I don't call people names or slurs because I see why that's insulting. "Curse you" I don't say because I see why it's insulting. Saying "Shit!" "Crap!" or "Freakin!" are not aimed at anyone, and people who are insulted because they overhear them I consider that to be their own issue. I don't use such words around people I know are offended by them, like my mother, just like I don't nurse in front of my FIL because I know he's offended. But... I don't actually think it's my responsibility to do so.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
Knowing that you have a child w/ Asperger's makes a big difference. In that case, I think you would be doing your child the greatest favor socially by teaching the complete avoidance of swear words, including questionable ones.

I respectfully 100% disagree.









I think some of the more important work I do with my students with AS is teaching them about different environments and different kinds of expectations in different environments. The world is not static. They WANT to think that everything is the same everywhere, and that the entire world follows one set of rules, but it's my job to SHOW and TEACH them nuances.

Have you ever read the book The Incredible 5 Point Scale? I use it a lot for things like.... voice level. So we talk about 5 different levels of voice (the kid helps make the levels with me and draw ths pictures and figure out the scenerios). We might end up with:

1- silent (use this during silent sustained reading time)
2- whisper (use this in the hallway)
3- conversation (use this during lunch, during math, etc.)
4 - playground (use this outside)
5 - screaming (use this ONLY in emergency)

These aren't RULES, rather just breaking down general social expectations. The child doesn't have to conform to social expectations if s/he doesn't want to, but some kids REALLY want this info broken down for them.

As the child gets older, you can do scales for all sorts of things to teach appropriatness in different sitations. A silly scale can REALLY help kids figure out about different expectations in different environments.

If the child is used to doing scales and used to learning about different expectations for different places, having different kinds of language deemed appropriate or innappropriate in different contexts is a GOOD learning tool. Again, for me, I wouldn't make it a "rule," per se, just a suggestion or clue into how other people think.

If you're using Michelle Winner's Social Thinking strategies as well, you're clueing the child in to how other people think. That leads to discussions about how grandma doesn't like psuedo- curse words, but your friends don't care.









Sorry for the tangent, I just think this kind of thinking is even more important for kids with AS, I think just banning words misses an incredibly powerful real-world teaching moment.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
I respectfully 100% disagree.









I think some of the more important work I do with my students with AS is teaching them about different environments and different kinds of expectations in different environments. The world is not static. They WANT to think that everything is the same everywhere, and that the entire world follows one set of rules, but it's my job to SHOW and TEACH them nuances.

Have you ever read the book The Incredible 5 Point Scale? I use it a lot for things like.... voice level. So we talk about 5 different levels of voice (the kid helps make the levels with me and draw ths pictures and figure out the scenerios). We might end up with:

1- silent (use this during silent sustained reading time)
2- whisper (use this in the hallway)
3- conversation (use this during lunch, during math, etc.)
4 - playground (use this outside)
5 - screaming (use this ONLY in emergency)

These aren't RULES, rather just breaking down general social expectations. The child doesn't have to conform to social expectations if s/he doesn't want to, but some kids REALLY want this info broken down for them.

As the child gets older, you can do scales for all sorts of things to teach appropriatness in different sitations. A silly scale can REALLY help kids figure out about different expectations in different environments.

If the child is used to doing scales and used to learning about different expectations for different places, having different kinds of language deemed appropriate or innappropriate in different contexts is a GOOD learning tool. Again, for me, I wouldn't make it a "rule," per se, just a suggestion or clue into how other people think.

If you're using Michelle Winner's Social Thinking strategies as well, you're clueing the child in to how other people think. That leads to discussions about how grandma doesn't like psuedo- curse words, but your friends don't care.









Sorry for the tangent, I just think this kind of thinking is even more important for kids with AS, I think just banning words misses an incredibly powerful real-world teaching moment.

Thanks for the info...I will definately look into both.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

While I am all about respecting people and being mature, tactful and even kind







I think that I also have a right to use the words that seem right to me.

I never go out of my way to offend someone. Paying close attention to my speech is a key piece of my spiritual path. If I am in a situation with people I do not know well I generally refrain from swearing. However, I'm not constantly going to avoid swear words because some people don't like them. Some people don't like the color red, my hair cut, or the clothes I wear but I am still going to wear them & and everyone is just going to have to get on with it.

I enjoy making people happy and comfortable, but I believe there has to be a balance. I have to live a life that's authentic for me.


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## onelilguysmommy (May 11, 2005)

im 20 and i still dont cuss around my parents, i said damn around my mom a couple times accidentally and i said smartass the other day, but thats it.

my dad..not at all.

other than that, i do cuss, just not much, although i say crap, and freakin and flippin a LOT. i dont allow that sort of stuff, but my son says damn sometimes (yeah lovely) and i dont allow that with gods name in front of it, or using jesus or god as an exclaimation in any way, but other than that..ill try to explain why and all, i dont think its cute or anything, i just dont want him resenting that theres some reason i can say these things and he cant, and ending up cussing me out because of it or something. the words arent for regular language, only like something falling on your foot or something, ya know?


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## peachpie (Jan 25, 2007)

This has not really come up yet in our house so it's been fascinating to read through all the different responses.

I keep thinking of my dad, who even when I was visiting from college, would raise his eyebrows if I said "sucks". I never got in trouble for it-- just a sigh and "You know, that's not very lady-like."


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

To answer the thread title question: yes.

She also wouldn't say those in front of Grandma, however. She knows Grandma feels uncomfortable when people say those words and dd doesn't want Grandma uncomfortable.


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## goddessgold1 (Oct 29, 2006)

I dont encourage my kids to say things like crap, what the, or frickin. If I hear them say it, I ask thm if they can think of something else to say instead. It helps remind them that I dont like to hear it, and also teaches them other ways to express themselves.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I am guilty of using crap and crud when I'm frustrated. So far DD hasn't said either one. She has said "Jesus!" ....I say "Jeez" a lot and probably am her role model for that one.

BUT...the other day her sister was doing something annoying and DD1 said "Godsteak!" I just stared at her. I had no idea what she was trying to say. She said it again. "Godsteak!"

DH looked sheepish. Apparently he says "For G-d's sake!" when he gets really frustrated with one of them. So that was DD's translation of it.

LOL. I grew up in a very censorious (??) household, so I am okay with them using words as long as they understand that not everyone might be happy hearing them. (One of their grandmothers might just flip right over if she heard "Godsteak"!) Usually if we just let it go, DD gets tired of saying the new, fun word after a few days.

Except for"poop". That still cracks her up.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

It seems to me that many of the opinions on this subject fall into one of two camps. Either people assert that limiting speech is censorship and they feel like they and their children should have a right to express themselves as they wish; so it's mainly viewed as an individual rights/freedom of speech issue. Or they see it as an issue of respecting other people and being considerate of their feelings; so it's viewed mainly as an issue of community responsibility and having the self-control to respect others.

I have heard some excellent arguments on both sides of the issue. There are some good points on either side. And while I currently lean towards the "respecting others" camp, years ago, I would have been much more vehement about defending the "right to express myself in whatever manner I chose". I still absolutely and unequivocally defend the _right_ to say it. However, I no longer consider the matter of _rights_ to always be the primary or the only matter to consider when making decisions on the right or wrong way to behave. I've come to acknowledge a greater sense of responsibility to my community as well (both the intentional community and the community at large).

When I think about swearing and how it offends some people, I have to consider not just how it affects or limits me, but how it affects other people. And then I ask myself whether it's actually _important_ to me to use that language or not, knowing how it may affect others. I have to admit that it's not particularly important to me. Swearing isn't an essential part of who I am. I will still feel authentic if I don't do it. In fact, the self-control required to control my language is good for me in general and I feel far better about exercising that self-control than about exercising my freedom to speak profanity. If I weigh my right to use offensive language against my responsibility or desire to respect other members of my community, I have to conclude that it's a case where my desire to respect and honor others trumps my choice to exercise that particular form of free speech. It is still a voluntary choice though. Having considered the relative significance to me vs the impact on others, I choose not to use it. And I'm trying to teach my kids to consider situations similarly.

Which brings us to other related situations. People have made comparisions to other things they do or say that might offend others. And I have to point out that each situation is different. I don't avoid doing or saying ALL things just b/c they might offend _someone_. There are times when I feel that it is more important to say or do something than it is to avoid conflict. Sometimes there are principles that are important to defend or there are forms of expression that are vital to our identity or being. We all have to weigh the relative merit of expressing ourselves vs altering our language or behavior out of respect for others in each of these situations. Sometimes I think we have an obligation to speak out, even when it offends someone, b/c there's an important matter of human rights or justice at issue. But that's a far cry from the original question about swearing.

When it comes to swearing, it's just not important enough to me to use foul language, even the marginal variety that is acceptable in most situations. If it's going to be viewed as "environmental pollution" by others, then it's no big loss to me to avoid it. Instead, by respecting someone's feelings and keeping the environment clean and pleasant, we all benefit as a community. For others, language choices might weigh in differently. And for different situations, the balance might tip in a different direction. Ykwim?

And that's not to say that _never swearing_ is the _only_ right answer. It just happens to be where things balance out for me at this stage in my life. And yes, despite this ideology, I do still slip up. But I try not to. At least when I'm around others.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

third camp here. Don't swear around people who it bothers but feel "free" to swear around people who it doesn't. This is what my parents chose (words are words but there are some words you don't say at grandmas or in school or in "public" - we never had a problem remembering). My dad is a writer and for him swearing _is_ a creative art - but he doesn't do it in meetings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
It seems to me that many of the opinions on this subject fall into one of two camps. Either people assert that limiting speech is censorship and they feel like they and their children should have a right to express themselves as they wish; so it's mainly viewed as an individual rights/freedom of speech issue. Or they see it as an issue of respecting other people and being considerate of their feelings; so it's viewed mainly as an issue of community responsibility and having the self-control to respect others.

I have heard some excellent arguments on both sides of the issue. There are some good points on either side. And while I currently lean towards the "respecting others" camp, years ago, I would have been much more vehement about defending the "right to express myself in whatever manner I chose". I still absolutely and unequivocally defend the _right_ to say it. However, I no longer consider the matter of _rights_ to always be the primary or the only matter to consider when making decisions on the right or wrong way to behave. I've come to acknowledge a greater sense of responsibility to my community as well (both the intentional community and the community at large).

When I think about swearing and how it offends some people, I have to consider not just how it affects or limits me, but how it affects other people. And then I ask myself whether it's actually _important_ to me to use that language or not, knowing how it may affect others. I have to admit that it's not particularly important to me. Swearing isn't an essential part of who I am. I will still feel authentic if I don't do it. In fact, the self-control required to control my language is good for me in general and I feel far better about exercising that self-control than about exercising my freedom to speak profanity. If I weigh my right to use offensive language against my responsibility or desire to respect other members of my community, I have to conclude that it's a case where my desire to respect and honor others trumps my choice to exercise that particular form of free speech. It is still a voluntary choice though. Having considered the relative significance to me vs the impact on others, I choose not to use it. And I'm trying to teach my kids to consider situations similarly.

Which brings us to other related situations. People have made comparisions to other things they do or say that might offend others. And I have to point out that each situation is different. I don't avoid doing or saying ALL things just b/c they might offend _someone_. There are times when I feel that it is more important to say or do something than it is to avoid conflict. Sometimes there are principles that are important to defend or there are forms of expression that are vital to our identity or being. We all have to weigh the relative merit of expressing ourselves vs altering our language or behavior out of respect for others in each of these situations. Sometimes I think we have an obligation to speak out, even when it offends someone, b/c there's an important matter of human rights or justice at issue. But that's a far cry from the original question about swearing.

When it comes to swearing, it's just not important enough to me to use foul language, even the marginal variety that is acceptable in most situations. If it's going to be viewed as "environmental pollution" by others, then it's no big loss to me to avoid it. Instead, by respecting someone's feelings and keeping the environment clean and pleasant, we all benefit as a community. For others, language choices might weigh in differently. And for different situations, the balance might tip in a different direction. Ykwim?

And that's not to say that _never swearing_ is the _only_ right answer. It just happens to be where things balance out for me at this stage in my life. And yes, despite this ideology, I do still slip up. But I try not to. At least when I'm around others.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe* 
third camp here. Don't swear around people who it bothers but feel "free" to swear around people who it doesn't. This is what my parents chose (words are words but there are some words you don't say at grandmas or in school or in "public" - we never had a problem remembering). My dad is a writer and for him swearing _is_ a creative art - but he doesn't do it in meetings.


Actually, I think that's still in the same camp.







If you're choosing to avoid swearing around people who would be offended, then you're in the same camp I'm in. That's exactly the point I was making. We either make conscious choices about our language which factor in the impact of our behavior on others or we opt to engage in completely free and uncensored speech.

I tend to try to avoid swearing in all situations b/c it's more consistent and easier to make a habit of not swearing and it also ensures that the message my kids get is consistent. Getting back to the original question, I think if the kids are raised in an environment where language is kept clean and positive, then it teaches them an attitude about language that is positive and encourages positive word choices. While I could swear like a fishwife at home and let my kids do the same, but teach them explicitly to never say that outside the house, that doesn't feel right to me. Even if it prevented other people from being offended, I feel like it would be giving the kids an inconsistent message. It's hard to put it exactly into words, but I guess to me it feels better to raise them in an environment that's as free of offensive language as possible. Not that I claim perfection...

But I think it's the same basic philosophy, just perhaps a matter of the degree to which we change our behavior.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Yep


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
Actually, I think that's still in the same camp.







If you're choosing to avoid swearing around people who would be offended, then you're in the same camp I'm in. That's exactly the point I was making. We either make conscious choices about our language which factor in the impact of our behavior on others or we opt to engage in completely free and uncensored speech.

I tend to try to avoid swearing in all situations b/c it's more consistent and easier to make a habit of not swearing and it also ensures that the message my kids get is consistent. Getting back to the original question, I think if the kids are raised in an environment where language is kept clean and positive, then it teaches them an attitude about language that is positive and encourages positive word choices. While I could swear like a fishwife at home and let my kids do the same, but teach them explicitly to never say that outside the house, that doesn't feel right to me. Even if it prevented other people from being offended, I feel like it would be giving the kids an inconsistent message. It's hard to put it exactly into words, but I guess to me it feels better to raise them in an environment that's as free of offensive language as possible. Not that I claim perfection...

But I think it's the same basic philosophy, just perhaps a matter of the degree to which we change our behavior.

I agree with this.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

LMbottomO at "Godsteak" and "tater tots"! I'm sorry, but that's hilarious.

Oh, and from my seat (not having to deal with it yet), the poster whose kid said, "let me out of the f----- car!" is absolutely freaking craptastic!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
While I could swear like a fishwife at home and let my kids do the same, but teach them explicitly to never say that outside the house, that doesn't feel right to me. Even if it prevented other people from being offended, I feel like it would be giving the kids an inconsistent message. It's hard to put it exactly into words, but I guess to me it feels better to raise them in an environment that's as free of offensive language as possible. Not that I claim perfection...


That is because you feel like swearing is offensive langauge. If you didn't feel that way, there would seem nothing that inconsistant about teaching kids through example and explicit isntructoins how to adapt language use for different situatins (like moderating voice volumn depending on whether you are inside or outside).

It is interesting to see people's different perspectives on this though.


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## gilleoin (Jan 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
What do you think of children using not quite cuss words?

BTW we don't let our children call people stupid, idiot, retard or say shut up either.

We don't let our kids do any of the things you listed at the end. But we allow almost-swearing. My kids are allowed to say crap and freaking. I am really ok with it, at this point. As long as they are not being hurtful to others, I am ok with a "Holy crap" when they stub their toes. My kids also know that most parent don't allow it and we have different ettiquette when we go out in public.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe* 
That is because you feel like swearing is offensive langauge. If you didn't feel that way, there would seem nothing that inconsistant about teaching kids through example and explicit isntructoins how to adapt language use for different situatins (like moderating voice volumn depending on whether you are inside or outside).

It is interesting to see people's different perspectives on this though.

But it's not just b/c *I* think swearing is offensive language. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter whether I think this or that word is offensive to me. I desire to teach my kids to be considerate of what other people feel. And I made the change in myself out of respect for other people.

I used to think there was nothing at all wrong with swearing. And I still wouldn't say it's necessarily _bad_, since it exists and is part of the general culture. I read books that contain profanity and don't shield my eyes.







My kids occasionally hear words in movies or from people around them and we don't make a big deal about it. And I don't get bent out of shape if I hear one of my kids pick up one of those words. It's a word. How it's used has meaning and emotional impact and can create impressions on people and so on.

But I didn't change my language or "house rules" for my kids based on what I _personally_ thought was offensive. I changed b/c of a change of heart I had with regard to how my actions affected others and the message I wanted to convey to my kids. I want them to think about the impact of their actions as they make choices. I don't want them only to think of themselves first as individuals but also of themselves as members of their community.

Otoh, I will admit that once I cleaned up my own act, I did begin to see the behavior of my former self and of others as more offensive. Funny how that works.







Not meaning to sound critical of others, it's as much a self-critical viewpoint as anything. And maybe "offensive" isn't even the right term. It's more a matter of having been too self-centered in the past to give consideration to how my behavior affected others. I never consciously or wilfully choose to offend anybody. But most of the time I didn't stop to think about it one way or the other and would probably have cracked jokes and laughed about it if someone had tried to point out to me that there was anything wrong with acting that way.







I'd have figured it was someone else's problem if they were too uptight and they just didn't have to listen.

Now, even if some colorful language doesn't offend me personally, I can still see that my own behavior was less pleasant and less positive than it could have been. So, in the grand scheme of things, if avoiding it makes the world a nicer place for _anybody_ and costs me almost nothing, I can do that.







It's a pretty negligible sacrifice. That choice mirrors other conscious decisions I've made to surround myself and family with more positive energy. So I wouldn't say I find the words _offensive_ so much as I find the absence of them to be more beautiful.









Btw, this philosophy on language isn't isolated to just language. It's been a gradual shift in thinking over the years about a lot of different actions and choices I make. I have thought about this as I've read a lot of threads here on MDC and other places. Debates about ettiquette, dress, appearance, etc are often perfect examples of this divide between our personal rights/freedoms/expression and our communal resonsibility/consideration/influence. I could go to any number of debates on MDC and find similar patterns of division. Take the recent debate on what's appropriate to wear to a wedding. I was stunned that it generated so many pages of argument and heated emotion. But, taken apart, the debate comes down to very similar principles. It's good food for thought if nothing else. Personal freedoms and community responsibility/respect for others sometimes DO conflict. And where each of us stands as to the relative importance of one or the other is bound to be a topic of hot debate. Enjoyable debate too, I might add.

Please forgive me if this comes off sounding high-handed. I'm not attempting to be, but for some reason every time I reread this I feel like I sound that way and I'm not wanting to. I keep rewriting it, but I I only succeed in making the post longer and wordier without coming across any much better. So I'll shut up now!


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
But it's not just b/c *I* think swearing is offensive language. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter whether I think this or that word is offensive to me. I desire to teach my kids to be considerate of what other people feel. And I made the change in myself out of respect for other people.

I used to think there was nothing at all wrong with swearing. And I still wouldn't say it's necessarily _bad_, since it exists and is part of the general culture. I read books that contain profanity and don't shield my eyes.







My kids occasionally hear words in movies or from people around them and we don't make a big deal about it. And I don't get bent out of shape if I hear one of my kids pick up one of those words. It's a word. How it's used has meaning and emotional impact and can create impressions on people and so on.

But I didn't change my language or "house rules" for my kids based on what I _personally_ thought was offensive. I changed b/c of a change of heart I had with regard to how my actions affected others and the message I wanted to convey to my kids. I want them to think about the impact of their actions as they make choices. I don't want them only to think of themselves first as individuals but also of themselves as members of their community.

Otoh, I will admit that once I cleaned up my own act, I did begin to see the behavior of my former self and of others as more offensive. Funny how that works.







Not meaning to sound critical of others, it's as much a self-critical viewpoint as anything. And maybe "offensive" isn't even the right term. It's more a matter of having been too self-centered in the past to give consideration to how my behavior affected others. I never consciously or wilfully choose to offend anybody. But most of the time I didn't stop to think about it one way or the other and would probably have cracked jokes and laughed about it if someone had tried to point out to me that there was anything wrong with acting that way.







I'd have figured it was someone else's problem if they were too uptight and they just didn't have to listen.

Now, even if some colorful language doesn't offend me personally, I can still see that my own behavior was less pleasant and less positive than it could have been. So, in the grand scheme of things, if avoiding it makes the world a nicer place for _anybody_ and costs me almost nothing, I can do that.







It's a pretty negligible sacrifice. That choice mirrors other conscious decisions I've made to surround myself and family with more positive energy. So I wouldn't say I find the words _offensive_ so much as I find the absence of them to be more beautiful.









Btw, this philosophy on language isn't isolated to just language. It's been a gradual shift in thinking over the years about a lot of different actions and choices I make. I have thought about this as I've read a lot of threads here on MDC and other places. Debates about ettiquette, dress, appearance, etc are often perfect examples of this divide between our personal rights/freedoms/expression and our communal resonsibility/consideration/influence. I could go to any number of debates on MDC and find similar patterns of division. Take the recent debate on what's appropriate to wear to a wedding. I was stunned that it generated so many pages of argument and heated emotion. But, taken apart, the debate comes down to very similar principles. It's good food for thought if nothing else. Personal freedoms and community responsibility/respect for others sometimes DO conflict. And where each of us stands as to the relative importance of one or the other is bound to be a topic of hot debate. Enjoyable debate too, I might add.

Please forgive me if this comes off sounding high-handed. I'm not attempting to be, but for some reason every time I reread this I feel like I sound that way and I'm not wanting to. I keep rewriting it, but I I only succeed in making the post longer and wordier without coming across any much better. So I'll shut up now!









I don't think you sound high-handed at all, and once again, I agree with pretty much every thing you say! I also used to feel that "that's their problem" if people didn't like hearing certain things, but for the exact reasons you mentioned, I've changed my thoughts on this.

Glad to know I'm not alone!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

you don't sound high minded monkeys, I just don't see how teaching your kids that it is OK to swear at home because at home no one is offended by it but it is not OK to swear at school or at the store or at grandmas because sopmeone may be ofended by it is allowing teh kids to use offensive langauge. This is what my parents did and it was foolproof - I NEVER used offensive language because I never said the S word at school or at grandmas. I said it at home, where no one was offended.

I am a southern girl and so ettiquette is important to me. Not making people uncomfrotable is important to me. There is nothing offensive about the S word if the hearer isn't offended by it. Don't say it around people who are offended, say it around people who aren't offended, and you don't offend. I had learned this by by age 4.5 when I started school and probably earlier.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

figures, you start this thread & dd decides to pick up "freakin"














it definitely came from me & she used it very appropriately (it *is* a freakin' car seat!) we talked about how there are better words to use & it's not the nicest word. ugh. it sounds so much worse coming out of her little mouth.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe* 
you don't sound high minded monkeys, I just don't see how teaching your kids that it is OK to swear at home because at home no one is offended by it but it is not OK to swear at school or at the store or at grandmas because sopmeone may be ofended by it is allowing teh kids to use offensive langauge. This is what my parents did and it was foolproof - I NEVER used offensive language because I never said the S word at school or at grandmas. I said it at home, where no one was offended.

I am a southern girl and so ettiquette is important to me. Not making people uncomfrotable is important to me. There is nothing offensive about the S word if the hearer isn't offended by it. Don't say it around people who are offended, say it around people who aren't offended, and you don't offend. I had learned this by by age 4.5 when I started school and probably earlier.


I can totally understand this point of view and I think it's a perfectly acceptable one. I just chose to take it all a step further and practice completely avoiding the language. I've found it makes for a more pleasant environment in general and it elevates our consciousness of language choices. Others may disagree or find it's not all that different for them. Which is OK.

I think the key is about respecting one another and that's what you're emphasizing. I've come to like it better avoiding the language as much as possible. It was unexpectedly rewarding in other ways as mentioned in previous posts. But I would not criticize the approach you suggest. The only one that disturbs me is a flippant disregard for how language (or other behavior) affects others.


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