# Please remind me that she is just a normal toddler, not a "James Dobson" monster!



## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

Ok, my SIL and Mom were here for a visit and they both think my 2 1/2 year old daughter is a "Strong-Willed Child" according to James Dobson. My SIL bought me a copy of the book.

Then our nanny who works two days a week revealed the other day that she likes Dobson, too, and brought a copy of "Dare to Discipline" for us to read. Can't believe I didn't know this before hiring her.









After my SIL's visit, she sent me this email:

Dear ________,
I understand that you and DH have agreed not to use spankings. Many people agree with you on this philosophy and I think it is better to have this philosophy than to incorrectly use corporal punishment with anger, etc. We also used other discipline measures with our kids, as we felt they were appropriate. And we sure made our share of mistakes. I will not try to change your minds. It is none of my business except for that I love you all and want the best for each of you- whatever that may be. I think it is wonderful that you two agree and are working together to support each other. That is not often the case for married couples with children. Can you imagine raising kids when the parents are disagreeing all the time? Besides, whatever you choose to do has to come from your heart or it will be impossible for you to be consistent. I appreciate your willingness to teach me about your philosophy and how it works and what your thoughts are. Can we look at a real life incident?

There is one incident while we were there that stands out in my mind. ( Please don't be angry or hurt by my relaying this. As far as I'm concerned, my friendship with you is the most important thing to me and I do not want to say, write, or do anything to harm what I hope is a growing, life long relationship.) Your mother had washed our beach towels for us and I found them on the floor so I picked each one up, one at a time, and folded them and put them up on the rail of the stairwell. At that point, DD, with you right behind her, came running into the room screaming "no, no, no!", and grabbed the towel out of my hands and the rest off of the banister and threw them on the floor. I was dumbfounded. I didn't feel that it was OK with you for me to deal with the situation, so all I could do was leave the room. I didn't see any consequences for DD but maybe because I wasn't thinking of natural and logical consequences. If you are willing, will you tell me what your thoughts were and what DD learned from this encounter?

My thoughts were something like this:

DH is trying to sleep and DD is screaming.
Mother went through the effort to clean these towels for us.
Children should respect others, not scream at them, and not tell adults what to do.
One should not grab things from other people.
DD showed no respect for the efforts I had made to fold the towels.
Clean towels don't belong on the floor.
What are the negative consequences for DD's behavior? Does she realize all the things that just happened that are wrong?

I didn't see any of these issues dealt with. I did notice that the next time I walked by, the towels were gone.

I just want DD to know what is right and what is wrong and to respond to her world in a way that is appropriate and will bring joy and peace and love and contentment to her and those she encounters in life. Thank you for taking the time to talk through this incident with me as it upset me, for DD's sake.

Love,
SIL

Here's my response:

Hey SIL,

Yeah, you're right - I dropped the ball on that one.

I remember that happening, but I was distracted at the time and didn't deal with it like I normally would have. Having all the extra people in the house and trying to deal with the girls and everything else was overwhelming. I'm not saying that justifies negative behavior, I'm just saying that things were very much out of order for us. So, basically, I gave myself and DD a break concerning that incident and let it go.

Every parent has to pick their battles, and on that day, that was not a battle I was up for. Don't let it upset you too much that I let it go. I'm sure that situation is not going to make or break DD's character in the long run. She will be just fine. We want DD to grow up and be a good person even more than you do!









In my opinion, family get-togethers are not usually a good indication of day-to-day living of individual families. Some people I see maybe once a year - that particular week could be good or bad for a person depending on a dozen circumstances. Everyone is out of their normal environment.

So when I'm visiting family I don't see very often, I try to give more leeway to everyone, kids and adults, too. People are out of their element, sometimes not sleeping very well, seeing people that they may have some serious differences of opinion with, seeing people they hardly know, trying to please their parents, the host family trying to make sure everyone is ok and comfortable, the kids are out of sorts, the adults are worrying about how much money is being spent, the list goes on.

So I hope you will give us a break about it, too. It won't be the last time something like this happens. I just can't put that much stress on myself to be a perfect parent or on my children to be perfect during family visits.

Thanks, Me

Trouble is, I started reading those Dobson books and now I'm all screwed up about my wonderful daughter. I am paranoid about all the things written in there. Is she testing me? Is she manipulating me? What happened to my dear sweet baby? She's hitting and biting kids, she hit her baby sister the other day, pulling the cat's tail, being rude to Daddy.

Ugh. I know she is NOT a monster kid. She is a normal toddler. She's got a new baby sister and is adjusting. I hate those Dobson books. Crap. Tell me please that my kid is ok, that not spanking her is good and my relatives are wrong.

Thanks if you got this far. I love my girl!


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## loveharps (Mar 16, 2005)

One thing I have noticed, if someone doesn't agree with the way you are raising your children they tend to dwell on things your children do and blame it on the parenting.

I do believe that children need discipline, I don't believe the best way to discipline is spanking.
To me discipline is not about punishment when a child does something wrong, its about teaching the child to know what is wrong, so they don't do it in the first place.
The response you gave your SIL was a really good one, to be honest, if it was me I wouldn't have been so nice and controlled!


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

i would have asked dd to please help me re-fold the towels.Like this see?i go through this alot with my own dd as i fold laundry on the couch







As for James Dobson yeah theres some interesting points in his books but I tend to take it with a large dose of skepticism.He does have one son that it was my understanding didn't speak to his dad.I'm always wary of so called expert advice anyway.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Wow, it seems to me like your SIL has some really unrealistic ideas about what to expect from a 2 1/2 year old. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a child that age never to scream or grab or try to tell adults what to do. And you certainly shouldn't expect her to think about things like whether a sleeping person might be woken by her yelling, or the effort someone put into washing and folding towels, or why it's important for the towels to be folded and hung up rather than on the floor.

I think methods like spanking can teach a toddler to be afraid of screaming at adults or grabbing from adults. But I think there are also kinder ways to reduce those behaviors. And there's a big difference between teaching a child to ACT in ways that seem respectful and teaching her to FEEL real respect. If you use the wrong methods to get "respectful" behavior, you may end up demonstrating the exact opposite of respect. What kind of model of respectful behavior are you providing if you hit your daughter, or speak to her in a tone of voice you wouldn't want her to use with adults, or order her around without paying attention to her feelings? (Did anyone even know or care WHY she was so upset about SIL hanging up the towels?)

Your SIL obviously believes that any behavior you don't like needs to result in some negative consequence, or your child will never learn not to act that way in the future. If you want to try to convince her (or yourself) that she's wrong about that, you should be able to find plenty of books to help you. Positive Discipline, by Jane Nelsen, would be one example.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Okay, I'm going to be a little snarky with some lines from your sil's letter.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
There is one incident while we were there that stands out in my mind.

Personally, I think it must be exhausting to be your sil. She seems to have put an awful lot of thought into what sounds like a pretty darn small event. Not that small events can't be important, but while reading this, I was thinking, "*This* is her sil's best example of why she thinks this little girl is out of control?" I'm not saying that it wasn't worth being addressed at the time, but it's not exactly, "I'm concerned that she's ripping siding off the house whenever she takes a break from setting fire to the neighborhood dogs," kwim?

Quote:

I just want DD to know what is right and what is wrong and to respond to her world in a way that is appropriate and will bring joy and peace and love and contentment to her and those she encounters in life.
Well, there's nothing like teaching "physical violence is okay when used by a stronger person against a weaker person" to increase the joy, peace, love, and contentment in the world.







:

This part of your response is extremely important and well-put:

Quote:

In my opinion, family get-togethers are not usually a good indication of day-to-day living of individual families. Some people I see maybe once a year - that particular week could be good or bad for a person depending on a dozen circumstances. Everyone is out of their normal environment.

So when I'm visiting family I don't see very often, I try to give more leeway to everyone, kids and adults, too. People are out of their element, sometimes not sleeping very well, seeing people that they may have some serious differences of opinion with, seeing people they hardly know, trying to please their parents, the host family trying to make sure everyone is ok and comfortable, the kids are out of sorts, the adults are worrying about how much money is being spent, the list goes on.
I have spent so much time to trying to explain this to my mil, who seems determined to rope me into discussions of what's "wrong" with our nephew. His family lives across the country from us, so we see them about 1x/year. Some of the relatives seem to have a really hard time grasping that we're never seeing him in his "natural habitat," so to speak.

Your whole response was awesome! I'm so impressed with how assertive you were while still being very gracious. I'm really working on the whole "not being a doormat, but not being a bouncer" thing myself, so now you're a hero to me.









Quote:

Ugh. I know she is NOT a monster kid. She is a normal toddler. She's got a new baby sister and is adjusting. I hate those Dobson books. Crap. Tell me please that my kid is ok, that not spanking her is good and my relatives are wrong.
Yes, yes, yes! Exactly. Those books are propaganda. If they weren't persuasive, no one would buy them. You're a good mama. Put down the Dobson. Go read a GD book to get the taste of him out of your mind. uke


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Try reading "Raising your Spirited Child" instead of Dobson.








The bad thing about Dobson, Ezzo, and the like, is that they CAN sound reasonable because they believe in themselves.
And because many people actually believe that children have to be *controlled* and if "necessary" (read: uncontrolled), they should be beaten into submission.
So, it is hard to not wonder sometimes if you are wrong for listening to your instincts.
Your DD sounds spirited to me...







Enjoy her spirit and continue to parent with your heart, brain and instincts.


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## nonnymoose (Mar 12, 2004)

I actually think it's great that you and your family can communicate with such respect, even from different viewpoints.
I can see her point, but I could see yours too.
It seems to me there's nothing wrong with picking and choosing what you might be able to use from the books that are freaking you out, and ignoring the rest!


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## GeezerMom (Apr 7, 2005)

I've been reading Harvey Karp's _Happiest Toddler on the Block_ - he's more APish. So far his descriptions are right on the money for me. It's a quick read, you might find it helpful.

Your relatives sound like a PITA.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Wow, what a gracious response you wrote to your SIL! Thanks so much for sharing it.

I read Dobson a long time ago and was really turned off by the way he seemed to have such a negative view of children. Like from his perspective they are just savage little beasts to be tamed by any means necessary, or woe the consequences. I thought that was a really sad way to feel about your kids.

There are enough parenting books out there that I think everyone can find a philosophy that will "fit" for them. Personally I'm a big fan of "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. There is a whole thread about the book here.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I don't think I would have defended my parenting to her. I don't think a 2 1/2 year old needs that much "discipline". I would have just kind of laughed it off and told my kid to knock it off. I think I would ask your SIL to just leave discipline discussions out of your relationship. If you want her advice, you will ask for it, right? My sister and I never talk about discipline or we would be screaming all the time. I commend you for being so civil with this.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Obvioulsy you have a very good grasp of GD because I would have told her to shove it. Congratulations, your daughter will be just fine with you as an example!


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

I agree with the PPs. Your SIL obviously has some issues. She disagrees with your style, she thinks she knows "best" and is politely trying to imply that you need to rethink your parenting style. Isn't it funny how other people always seem to know what is best for YOUR kid?

So you dropped the ball once. Big deal. I agree, kids aren't themselves when company is around. Esp. when there is a houseful. How does she know you didn't talk to your DD privately about the incident? How does she know that you didn't provide a later consequence? Why is she assuming that you do nothing and that it's your usual style? Sounds like she really DOES have too much time on her hands.

Your story resonates with me b/c I have two sisters with no kids, but I can tell they both think that I am too lenient sometimes. They think a toddler should be trained the way you train a dog, ie. always with consequences and from a very behavioral standpoint. I agree that consquences have their place, but we are dealing with little people here, not animals! They never really outright criticize me, I can just tell from some of their comments and little "jokes" that THEY would do things differently. I can tell you if they ever dare to they are going to hear it and I'm afraid that I won't be as gracious and controlled as you are about it. (One of them is my older sister and she has always had a bit of a bossy attitude, since I am almost 40 now it really drives me nuts!)

I wouldn't worry a bit about your parenting. The fact that you are shows that you are willing to examine your parenting and reflect on it....which to me says that you are doing a great job!!!


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## Ruby (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:

She's hitting and biting kids, she hit her baby sister the other day, pulling the cat's tail, being rude to Daddy.
Attempting these behaviours is completely normal, continuing these behaviours would indicate a lack of boundries or consistency of the parents. I disagree with people who think that this is the norm for toddlers. Children are very bright and can be shown what proper behavior is. Consistency is usually the key.

I think your sil was very respectful, perhaps she is concerned that your not sure what to do. If my sil was ever that kind I would probably fall out of my chair. :LOL I also agree that kids seem to really test boundries when they are out of the home to see if they still apply.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loveharps*

I do believe that children need discipline, I don't believe the best way to discipline is spanking.
To me discipline is not about punishment when a child does something wrong, its about teaching the child to know what is wrong, so they don't do it in the first place.
The response you gave your SIL was a really good one, to be honest, if it was me I wouldn't have been so nice and controlled!

I agree! We actually went down the spanking road at one point, fully knowing it wasn't the right thing for our family in our heads and hearts, but were feeling like we were out of options. Guess what, it didn't work at all and it did make ds more agressive and us broken spirited. *He* was acting very logically - you hit me, then I can hit too.

We are raising our children to be responsible, respectful adults and teaching them to make good choices in life. The key guiding "rule" in our house is: Everyone gives and gets respect. If you break that "rule" you will be held accountable. That may mean a reminder, a discussion, or time alone (which is a huge punishment for ds)...or all three.

Every instance like this is a learning opportunity for all!


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

You are one classy, gracious lady.

I would have said:

Dear SIL,

If this incident stood out in your mind, there is obviously not a whole lot in there.

Love,
Me

Okay, just partially kidding. But honestly, her expectations of a 2 1/2 year old are a bit over the top, especially the part about "DD showed no respect for the efforts I had made to fold the towels".

So you let it go. So you're not a perfect parent. So what.

I would send her a copy of "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" and call it a day.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I think your response to her was BRILLIANT. Family gatherings are always chaotic indeed


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## nonnymoose (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Dear SIL,

If this incident stood out in your mind, there is obviously not a whole lot in there.

Love,
Me

:LOL The OP is definitely gracious. This is an email I actually sent to my mother (we're a lot alike) last week:

"Dear Pot,

Fine.

Love,
Kettle"








:


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## MyTwoAs (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raynbow*
Try reading "Raising your Spirited Child" instead of Dobson.








The bad thing about Dobson, Ezzo, and the like, is that they CAN sound reasonable because they believe in themselves.
And because many people actually believe that children have to be *controlled* and if "necessary" (read: uncontrolled), they should be beaten into submission.
So, it is hard to not wonder sometimes if you are wrong for listening to your instincts.
Your DD sounds spirited to me...







Enjoy her spirit and continue to parent with your heart, brain and instincts.

I was also going to recommend Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It is a wonderful book.

That being said, your response was most gracious, as others have said.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
You are one classy, gracious lady.

I would have said:

Dear SIL,

If this incident stood out in your mind, there is obviously not a whole lot in there.

Love,
Me .

:LOL

ITA - you are very gracious. I'd be more than a little annoyed at someone picking apart my parenting like that. And if the worse she can bring up is your child grabbing some towels, then your kid must be an angel. Mine would do far worse than that within half an hour of a family visit, but I'd be furious if anyone decided to email me about it.

Well done to you for replying so eloquently.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
Trouble is, I started reading those Dobson books and now I'm all screwed up about my wonderful daughter. I am paranoid about all the things written in there. Is she testing me? Is she manipulating me? What happened to my dear sweet baby? She's hitting and biting kids, she hit her baby sister the other day, pulling the cat's tail, being rude to Daddy.

Ugh. I know she is NOT a monster kid. She is a normal toddler. She's got a new baby sister and is adjusting.

Of course! Kids AREN'T monsters, so there's no way she can be. And how manipulative can a 2 1/2 year old really be? I'm sure it's a stage. We just read Angelina's New Baby Sister, maybe you send it to your SIL, who doesn't seem to have much to do and probably would have time to read it.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I saw the Dobson reference and I just couldn't resist.....

Your dd is 2.5 and frankly it sounds like fairly normal behaviour for any child raised in a "Dobson" home or not. I am really impressed that you managed to stay so calm that alone tells me that you are doing just fine in your decisions. I would still be livid but...

I can say this from experience of being surrounded by Dobson advocates my entire life who honestly and sincerly follow his teachings, his solutions do not always work as he describes and they don't seem to always work how he describes. In the long run his focus is more on behaviour modification without dealing with the source or improving relationships.

I also take issue with "Strong Willed" being used in any way as negative. Your dd has a gift if she is blessed with a strong will and she definately doesn't need anyone spanking it out of her.


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## mthomas (Mar 20, 2004)

man...what's with the SIL bashing? I thought her letter conveyed a sincere concern and love for mother and child. Yeah, it wasnt REALLY her business, and yeah, it's pretty safe to say that the GD forum, we will take issues with several of her points, but can you take issue w/out basically calling someone stupid or empty-headed?
I understand the mama here is needing reassurance in her child's normal behavior, and I understand that it's natural to take sides w/someone we relate to, but can we ease up on the secondary issue here?
How can we teach our children to be respectful of their own and others feelings and needs, but not give the same to those in our lives. I could see the outcry a little more if the SIL had read her the riot act, called her a bad mother, or many number of things, but as it stands, what she wrote was not that imflamatory by my interpretation.

To the OP, I think your concern abt your kiddos behavior shows how much you care. And it is hard to see your sweet lovey dovey baby go to a cranky, gotta have it my way or no way, kid. My 15mo old is just starting to...eh...assert his independance himself :LOL.
Just keep on the track that feels best to you.
And I thought your letter back to SIL was great! Way to keep the lines of communication open.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Welll...I think the OP and SIL here seem to have good ability to communicate with each other. But I think a lot of us with *issues* with our relatives imagined getting such a letter ourselves and, well, a bit of projection goes on I suppose. I imagine getting this type of a note from my own SIL and just about see red. But it partly has to do with my history with her kind of passive-aggressively expressing her opinion on parenting (like not calling me out directly but saying what she thinks parents in general ought to do, in kind of a pointed way), or her yelling at me about how much noise my toddler is making (playing, not yelling! in the middle of the day! I mean god forbid he make a sound in her presence!).

And we also all share a beach house in the summer, and there have been general kid-related conflicts arisen in the past (between this SIL and our other SIL's kids) and I can so imagine getting this type of a letter from her and wanting to rip her face off.

That's why I was so impressed by the OP's very polite response and really felt rather inspired by it.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Great job on your reply letter!







I hope she will respond in a way that gives you some sense of closure.

Dobson. uke I'll stop there so I don't have to come back and edit later.









I strongly second the recommendation for _Raising Your Spirited Child_ and also _Playful Parenting_ . Actually, if you can afford it, how about sending a copy of RYSC to your sil? It would be a good read for her and give her lots to think about.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mthomas*
man...what's with the SIL bashing? I thought her letter conveyed a sincere concern and love for mother and child. Yeah, it wasnt REALLY her business, and yeah, it's pretty safe to say that the GD forum, we will take issues with several of her points, but can you take issue w/out basically calling someone stupid or empty-headed?
I understand the mama here is needing reassurance in her child's normal behavior, and I understand that it's natural to take sides w/someone we relate to, but can we ease up on the secondary issue here?
How can we teach our children to be respectful of their own and others feelings and needs, but not give the same to those in our lives. I could see the outcry a little more if the SIL had read her the riot act, called her a bad mother, or many number of things, but as it stands, what she wrote was not that imflamatory by my interpretation.

To the OP, I think your concern abt your kiddos behavior shows how much you care. And it is hard to see your sweet lovey dovey baby go to a cranky, gotta have it my way or no way, kid. My 15mo old is just starting to...eh...assert his independance himself :LOL.
Just keep on the track that feels best to you.
And I thought your letter back to SIL was great! Way to keep the lines of communication open.









I actually found SIL's email to be worded very nicely, she wasn't bashing and seemed to be truly interested in how GD/natural consequenses work.......of course, I don't know her, so I could be wrong!

Kristi


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mthomas*
man...what's with the SIL bashing? I thought her letter conveyed a sincere concern and love for mother and child. Yeah, it wasnt REALLY her business, and yeah, it's pretty safe to say that the GD forum, we will take issues with several of her points, but can you take issue w/out basically calling someone stupid or empty-headed?
I understand the mama here is needing reassurance in her child's normal behavior, and I understand that it's natural to take sides w/someone we relate to, but can we ease up on the secondary issue here?
How can we teach our children to be respectful of their own and others feelings and needs, but not give the same to those in our lives. I could see the outcry a little more if the SIL had read her the riot act, called her a bad mother, or many number of things, but as it stands, what she wrote was not that imflamatory by my interpretation.


I admit that I was snarky. I really hope that I didn't offend the OP.

I also admit that I didn't see the letter as "sincere concern" - I saw it as "sincere criticism" and found it quite condescending. If you really want to learn about someone else's parenting style (which is what she was appearing to inquire about), then there are better ways to ask then this:

Quote:

Thank you for taking the time to talk through this incident with me as it upset me, for DD's sake.
That sentence would have really angered me. It's a very condescending way of saying "what you are doing is not good enough and I'm concerned about your daughter's welfare."

And handing a GD believe a James Dobson book is like handing a vegetarian a meat-lovers cookbook because you are "concerned" about the lack of meat in someone else's child's diet. I just think it crosses a boundary.

(by the way, I occasionally eat meat so I didn't intend to equate meat eaters with James Dobson fans!)

But I really hope that I didn't offend the OP because I think she is a neat lady. If I did, I apologize.

And ITA with the person that said a lot of us are probably reacting the way we are because we are imagining these words coming from our relatives. Excellent point!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

When I read about the towel incident one thought immediately came to my mind. I remember reading in a development book (and of course, I cannot remember which one) that toddlers go through a phase where they get very, very upset with change. They don't like things moved, even things that seem, to us, just randomly scattered. I've had the experience of picking up toys only to hear protests of "NOOOO!" when I inadvertently moved an object that was the cherished-toy-of-the-moment. So I'm thinking this little girl may have been playing make-believe, or may have decided that the towels look nicer and plusher all crumpled on the floor, and gained a sort of posessiveness about the towels, which is why she howled in dismay when she discovered they were folded.

The problem with POV's like your sister is they seem to assume there is only one Human in the picture whose feelings are worth respecting. It may not seem logical or even practical for an adult to want to put towels in piles on the floor, but obviously it was to this toddler and the SIL simply couldn't, for a moment, see that. Everything was about what that child's feelings were doing to everybody else. ITA that it's completely unrealistic to expect a 2.5 year old to understand "the effort it took to fold the towels". Toddlers that age are self-absorbed, and not in a bad way either.

ITA that this was not a battle worth fighting, and I also agree with whoever said they feel sorry for the SIL if that is the sort of thing that gets her so riled up she worries about the consequences.

I think the letter was nicely worded, and seemed to come from a genuine place. IF, and this is a big if, she really wants to understand your style of discipline so she can stop worrying about her neices/nephews, then I think a good GD book is the answer. But it can't be too "out there", since she is coming from a *completely* different set of assumptions about the inherent nature of children (which is where I really get rankled when it comes to Dobson-esque philosophies that just assume the worst of children when there isn't a bloody shred of evidence to support their explanations of what they are seeing). Try a book that is replete with child-psychology and developmental psych references. It's been a long day and my mind is drawing a blank right now, but they are out there!

She may not agree with your approach, but if you can explain it to her via a book, at least maybe she can respect it, rather than thinking you are just "doing nothing".


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I agree with Pigelt, and I think a book along those lines might be The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. When I read it I was struck by how, in a way, he was viewing children's behavior not that differently from Dobson...he just wasn't labeling the behavior in a negative way the way Dobson does (i.e. calling children manipulative). Wolf has this big discussion about how children have a "baby-self" that is self-absorbed, wants everything its own way, acts immaturely, etc. It is basically the "id" if you know about Freudian's theories. Dobson sees this behavior and advises a parent to discipline it out of a child, whereas Wolf sees the behavior and advises you to, more or less, ignore it. Although he is NOT advising to be a doormat, as he describes how to get kids to do (or not do) whatever is appropriate. But he frames the undesirable behavior in a way that does not label it as "bad" for the child to do or "indulgent" for the parent to ignore. Wolf also puts some discussion into the idea that kids can have bad days, and parents can be as perfect as possible and still have conflicts or difficult situations sometimes. That was very validating for me to read and might be good for your SIL to hear.

I'm curious about one thing, it seems like from the letter that the SIL already has kids of her own? That makes me surprised that she isn't a little more understanding, from having been there. But OTOH, my MIL doesn't seem to remember when her kids were little either. There have been a few comments from FIL that they "ran a tighter ship", and MIL has advised several times that my 18-month-old needs a "time-out" when he has a tantrum so he'll learn it's not appropriate to scream. (She knows people don't spank now but she thinks time-out is the way you're supposed to deal with everything.) I told her we don't use time-out for that (we don't use it at all but that's another story) and then asked what she did when her kids were that age. Did she use time-out? She says no, nobody did that then. Did she spank? Well, no, not when they were that little, and not for a tantrum. Well what did she do? She says she honestly can't remember. :LOL FIL can't remember either but they are sure their kids didn't scream when they were toddlers


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## Messac888 (Jan 24, 2005)

Your sil is totally not a mom, is she? What blew my mind is that a small thing about TOWELS was referred to as an INCIDENT. Your dd is two. So is my ds. He does the same thing. Forget the books, no one is more expert about our children than we are.


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

I just wanted to let you know that I think you are doing a great job with your child! Try to just blow off what your SIL said...I know that is not easy to do. You know your child better than anyone!

Kellina


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Does she really think a spanking or going all Dobson on your daughter is going to convey all this:
"DH is trying to sleep and DD is screaming.
Mother went through the effort to clean these towels for us.
Children should respect others, not scream at them, and not tell adults what to do.
One should not grab things from other people.
DD showed no respect for the efforts I had made to fold the towels.
Clean towels don't belong on the floor"


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

:

I mean, really, how the heck is a 2-yo supposed to know that "Mother went through effort" to clean the towels, that SIL had just folded them, that folding is in fact work and that for some reason or another the grownups don't want those particular towels on the floor?

I thought she sounded really priggish about that, and frankly if it had been me replying to her I would not have admitted for one second "having dropped the ball" because as far as I can see, you didn't! Those are concepts just _so_ far beyond a 2-yo's grasp. They are still babies.

She's full of it.

ETA: And this?

Quote:

I will not try to change your minds. It is none of my business except for that I love you all and want the best for each of you- whatever that may be.
Given the context and the rest of the letter? Passive-agressive city.


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## Thalia (Apr 9, 2003)

I thought of Piaget and "theories of mind" as well when I read your SIL's letter. Whether she is truly asking you to help her understand your parenting style and not just being passive aggressive or not, it might help her to know a little bit about Piaget's theories. I've done work in child language acquisition and kind of take it as gospel that kids have trouble taking someone else's perspective early on in their development; I just see it played out again and again and again.

Think about it. Kids are wonderful, but they are cognitive works in progress, and their ability to talk often runs ahead of their ability to perfom complex cognitive tasks. There are a lot of ADULTS who wouldn't have grasped all the finer points of your SIL's feelings about those towels, for heaven's sake.

Maybe if SIL understood that you DO expect your child to EVENTUALLY be able to reason things through and understand how her actions affect others, she would feel better. Maybe she thinks that because you didn't talk to DD about it this one stinking time, you won't EVER help her to think these things through (not that DD may have been able to understand and apply this, as a two year old). Maybe that's why she reacted so strongly. If so, I think your letter will help her understand where you're coming from.

At least she's communicating with you. And if it is passive-agressive, I think you did the right thing by simply responding to her questions, rather than reacting to her agression.


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

Here's my SIL's response to my email (it's in the first post of this thread).

Dear ______,
You are right. Please know that I understand and I appreciate your attitude because it goes both ways. I admire your calm perspective. Ever think about being an Emergency medicine physician??
Just a thought about the book coming your way. I think it is full of great wisdom of the ages. If Dobson suggests at times to apply the discipline of spanking in certain instances, just substitue in your mind what you and DH choose to do to address the situation. I hope you won't disregard all he says just because there is a difference in views in this area. Somehow though, I don't think I needed to say this to you. You seem very open-minded and willing to listen to others.

Love,
SIL

What do you all think of her response? I'm just dreading another family visit with her again. Talk about stress - how much fun is it to visit family when you know they are watching you and might be sending you emails afterwards about your discipline methods with your children? NOT a vacation IMO!







:


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Oh, I wouldn't worry. I think her email sounds really nice. I would let it lay and try to enjoy. We all need to be more careful about not judging anyone's parenting. I don't know why she thinks you should read a book that she knows you won't agree with but oh, well. Good luck.

Maureen


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I didn't read all the responses, but I wanted to reply.

There's no way I would have been as nice to your SIL as you were.

If I were you (I'm me but I still read 'em!) I would read Raising your Spirited Child and Unconditional Parenting.

In fact, budget permitting, I'd send copies to your SIL too (no, I wouldn't really but I'd want to.)

So sorry this happened to you. Family get togethers are tough on kids, and everyone else too!


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raynbow*
Try reading "Raising your Spirited Child" instead of Dobson.








The bad thing about Dobson, Ezzo, and the like, is that they CAN sound reasonable because they believe in themselves.
And because many people actually believe that children have to be *controlled* and if "necessary" (read: uncontrolled), they should be beaten into submission.
So, it is hard to not wonder sometimes if you are wrong for listening to your instincts.
Your DD sounds spirited to me...







Enjoy her spirit and continue to parent with your heart, brain and instincts.


what she said!







i love this book, and it is really helping me to understand and relate to my own 3 year-old spirited dd.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:

The problem with POV's like your sister is they seem to assume there is only one Human in the picture whose feelings are worth respecting. It may not seem logical or even practical for an adult to want to put towels in piles on the floor, but obviously it was to this toddler and the SIL simply couldn't, for a moment, see that. Everything was about what that child's feelings were doing to everybody else. ITA that it's completely unrealistic to expect a 2.5 year old to understand "the effort it took to fold the towels". Toddlers that age are self-absorbed, and not in a bad way either.










I'm not sure I'm understanding. Does your SIL _have_ children. I'm asking because none of my siblings have children and only one of them has any idea about how children develop. My nearest sister in age thought 2.5 ds quite a monster and from the perspective of adults acting like him, probably so. When she met him at 4 she thought him the sweetest, nicest boy possible







: (going through a very good stage and having a very good week). And, again, they would focus on something like towels which are really very minor.

I personally think discipline works best when it is guiding children in what to do. How on earth are they supposed to know?? A punitive approach might indicate to kids trying X brings pain (or lots of attention from parents - depends on the kid) and in many cases might cause a behavior to stop. For example, my parents hit, a lot. I learned to never hurt anyone in their presence. There is all this focus on telling kids what not to do (not very helpful) but not the training aspect of what to do in a situation. I thought the PP post of folding towels together very smart in that regard.

And, again,
I found your response very gracious.
Your SIL may very well mean well. Before I had kids I used to have all sorts of ideas in my head ("for heaven's sake, just do this.." kinda thing) Fortunately for my consience (spl??) , I never said anything. :LOL :LOL


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

woah. well, i didn't read all of the responses but my gut reaction is that your SIL took things way too personally...as if DD was directly trying to hurt her. she said "DD showed no respect for the efforts I had made to fold the towels." um...yeah. she's 2 1/2. why should she give a rat's butt that you took time out of your precious day to fold some towels for her mother? does your SIL think that DD should have thrown her a friggin party or something? ugh. she bugs me. i'd probably tell her to screw off, but you're obviously much more gracious than i am.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

This is what I would do. I would tell her that I am not interested nor willing to read a book that advocates spanking or child training in any way, shape, manner or form - PERIOD. If that makes you "close-minded", so be it. I think it makes you principled. I get physically ill when I read that kind of stuff and I wouldn't do it, even for the sake of family harmony. James Dobson's books are not just offensive because they advocate violence against children - they advocate treating children like they are wild animals who need to be strong-armed and tamed. Whether you are doing it with a belt buckle or through language is not the point. Unfortunately, your SIL thinks it's the word "spank" that you don't agree with and has no clue that there is a much, much larger picture.

Simply substitute the word "spank" for what you and DH would do???? She has no idea....

I am rarely visceral about anything but this is one thing that I won't compromise on.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
Wow, it seems to me like your SIL has some really unrealistic ideas about what to expect from a 2 1/2 year old. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a child that age never to scream or grab or try to tell adults what to do. And you certainly shouldn't expect her to think about things like whether a sleeping person might be woken by her yelling, or the effort someone put into washing and folding towels, or why it's important for the towels to be folded and hung up rather than on the floor.

.

ITA with this. I don't have kids but did various forms of childcare for 9 years and I'm certified in child development. This is normal behavior for a 2.5 yr old- not behavior one would encourage or support, but definitely _not a big deal_. I seriously would not have given this "incident" a moment's thought. I would be amazed if your SIL has young children. Did her toddlers never act up? Because from what I've seen, a normal 2.5 yr old will have at least one episode like this per day. It's why they're called "the terrible twos" not that I agree with that phrase, but it can have some truth to it- the thrid year of life is one where children are testing their limits and also have very little concern or empathy for other's feelings. The fourth year (when a child is three yrs old) is when children begin to understand how their actions can have an emotional impact on those around them, when they begin to understand what it is to hurt someone's feelings or why it's wrong to wake someone up. To a two yr old their feelings and their needs are really all they are aware of for the most part- they're self-centered little beings, they can't help it- they're developing! jeesh!

Do people really hit their babies for things like this?


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## fernlink (Jul 24, 2003)

Thanks for sharing your correspondance. I thought both of you did a good job of respectfully talking about something that can be difficult.

My take on her email was that she wanted to say something to your child but didn't feel like it would be the right thing to say. I believe that children are raised by a community - we parents can't all be in the same place at the same time and need help from those who are around. If it had been my gavin (a spirited little boy) I would have encouraged my SIL to tell him that the behavior wasn't appreciated and then move on. I agree with your decision to pick your battles.

I have felt the same (only opposite) with my brother and sil who had a little new baby. They had strong feelings about not picking her up and wanting her to sleep through the night. I wished I had asked permission to pick her up when I was helping them - I felt so guilty both ways. My gut said to pick her up but I didn't want to offend them in their house. So I did pick her up, but felt like I was going to get into trouble. It is just hard stuff sometimes, but nice when you can talk about what is okay for both of you. Does that make sense?

I am also having a hard time with my spirited child and came here looking for advice too!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I saw Dare to Discipline at a library sale I went to last weekend and looked at it out of curiosity. I'm already a GD teacher/therapist/babysitter (no kids yet) and had already ripped a copy of Babywise in half and hidden it in the fiction section. While I wasn't gung ho for the few things I scanned in it, I wasn't aghast until I came to the Q&A section where a parent who had spanked a small child was asking if it was ok to have done so given the situation. Dobson gave a long explaination as to why spanking or hitting is totally justified if it's to prevent a situation where the child might get hurt anyway. That's when I ripped up that one, too, and put it in the military history section.

(The books were all donated to the library and I spent $94 there so I can easily justify having done what I did.)


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

To answer the question, my SIL does have 3 children. They are about 21, 19 and 17.


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