# Are we THAT crazy?



## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

So I went to a storytime at our local bookstore, because we came across it by accident once before, and they had BUBBLES! Which was a bit hit with DD. So we go again after the holidays, and the first book they read it all about how the mom makes cupcakes with the daughter and then gets mad when the daughter wants more than one, and the dad yells at her to go to bed, and she turns pink... and the bookstore reader (an incredibly sweet teacherly type) starts saying, "she did a VERY NAUGHTY thing, and sneaked another cupcake" and all the moms start murmuring to their kids about "that's what happens when you don't listen to your mom."

I wanted to grab DD and run out of there!

I can't believe the shaming and labeling and fear-mongering that was going on as totally normal. UGH! I thought the library could be bad enough with its storytime, but now I'll never take it for granted.

Is this really the norm running around out there?

I just needed to vent. We didn't make it to our AP playgroups earlier this week, and it seems like everywhere we went, it was kids shoving smaller kids without any parents intervening, and this kind of negative parenting. I just want to cocoon DD up in hugs and love. I was shocked!


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

what was the book called?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Pinkalicious!

It's one dd likes. The book itself doesn't have the "that's what happens when you don't listen.." line in it, the story reader ad-libbed.

The story itself is a reasonable story about a girl who overindulges in pink, turns pink, has the doctor tell her that she has to eat lots of green to get over it, eats more pink, turns red, and then decides to eat green. It's silly mostly.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Sometimes parents get caught up in "mob mentality" and did what the librarian expected with the "naughty" comment, without really thinking things through.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

yes. we are that crazy.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

NOT the librarian







, the book-store clerk/reader woman.

I guess I am crazy too.









I kind of think it's not big a deal. Sneaking another cup-cake when your parents say no *is* naughty in my thinking (being disobedient + slyness).

Bad things *can* happen when children don't listen to their parents - my youngest DID get a cavity after regular not brushing his teeth thoroughly for a while. Yeah, it was a baby tooth and yes, now he knows better - but it would have been nice if he had listened in the first place and brushed better. I can imagine saying something like that to my kids when they were young, sort of tongue-in-cheek, but not completely.

Maybe she said "very naughty" for dramatic and humorous effect?

Lots of children's literature is fear-mongering and didactic - look at many fairy tales.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Sometimes parents get caught up in "mob mentality" and did what the librarian expected with the "naughty" comment, without really thinking things through.


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## simplymother (Dec 18, 2008)

The word "naughty" really bothers me. And that kind if shaming tone drives me nuts too. It's hard for me to explain to people who have no problem with it, exactly why it is so offensive. It's just so disrespectful. Fear-mongering, I guess that sounds about right too.

I guess it's just not at all how we would deal with something like that here (if it were to happen, which, sneaky behavior really just doesn't. There's no need, I guess. We all know we can just talk about what we need/want. And the kids seem to respect my judgment/reasons if I say no, I don't think we should have any more of that. How about . . . )

But assuming it did happen, my kids wouldn't expect to be shamed like that, or told they did something "naughty". I would probably say something like, wow, it looks like you REALLY wanted another cupcake, repeat my reasons for my original prohibition, maybe move the cupcakes out of sight/reach, depending on the child's age and ability to withstand temptation!!--and help my kid find an acceptable alternative.

The other method, yeah, I can someone said fear-mongering. It relies on fear of the parent's disapproval to get the kid to avoid eating something, rather than teaching the real reasons for the limit, and then accepting (and preparing for/preventing against) the possibility that kids (and adults) sometimes have a hard time with impulse control and withstanding the temptation of delicious-looking cupcakes sitting right there!!

But . . . yes, we ARE that crazy, I think, because I'm pretty sure just about everyone I know in real life would have absolutely no problem with the librarian's adlib, or understand my objection to using that technique in general.

Craziness is lonely. Even if it IS more reasonable.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i feel crazy sometimes too... it does seem to be the norm and I dont understand it! Today I dropped my son off at school and I heard the cafeteria attendant tell another child "sit at the second table" he seemed a little confused and when he didnt sit fast enough she said "can't you count?!" with a snarky attitude and I was just like - omg... did I just hear that? I really want to homeschool my kids but I did my best with my son and he has a learning disability (technically ASD but I don't think of him as autistic...) anyway, I will be removing him from the school eventually I think.. for now he needs to be there and his teacher is AWESOME and 95% of the people who work at that school are truly amazing... I am also going to start volunteering there soon... it just struck a nerve with me an I will probably report it to his teacher.


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplymother* 
The word "naughty" really bothers me. And that kind if shaming tone drives me nuts too. It's hard for me to explain to people who have no problem with it, exactly why it is so offensive. It's just so disrespectful. Fear-mongering, I guess that sounds about right too.

I guess it's just not at all how we would deal with something like that here (if it were to happen, which, sneaky behavior really just doesn't. There's no need, I guess. We all know we can just talk about what we need/want. And the kids seem to respect my judgment/reasons if I say no, I don't think we should have any more of that. How about . . . )

But assuming it did happen, my kids wouldn't expect to be shamed like that, or told they did something "naughty". I would probably say something like, wow, it looks like you REALLY wanted another cupcake, repeat my reasons for my original prohibition, maybe move the cupcakes out of sight/reach, depending on the child's age and ability to withstand temptation!!--and help my kid find an acceptable alternative.

The other method, yeah, I can someone said fear-mongering. It relies on fear of the parent's disapproval to get the kid to avoid eating something, rather than teaching the real reasons for the limit, and then accepting (and preparing for/preventing against) the possibility that kids (and adults) sometimes have a hard time with impulse control and withstanding the temptation of delicious-looking cupcakes sitting right there!!

But . . . yes, we ARE that crazy, I think, because I'm pretty sure just about everyone I know in real life would have absolutely no problem with the librarian's adlib, or understand my objection to using that technique in general.

Craziness is lonely. Even if it IS more reasonable.









I have the same problem the word "naughty" "good boy" "bad boy". I just feel like even though I didn't necessarily approve of his behaviour its not good or bad its usually just being a kid. I dunno I guess it feels really judgmental and when I was a kid being judged did nothing to change the way I acted.

Also just because it's not the behaviour we would choose for our kids to exhibit is it really inappropriate or bad? Or are we expecting way too much or our kids?
JMO

ETA: Yes, most people feel my objections are crazy too. And why should you always listen to your mom? Sometimes we (as adults) ignore good advice and sometimes we ignore advice b/c its not all that good. As mothers do we always know better than our kids? I don't think so.


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## tabrizia (Oct 24, 2007)

I don't think you're crazy, but we are no longer sending DS to my in-laws to babyisit as a break for me because they comment on him being naughty and bad, when both DH and my thought are he is just being a toddler. The words naughty and bad bother me especially at this stage, because I know DS is not being either he is just trying to figure things out and exert his will on situations.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Ah, big







for my fellow crazies; I am so grateful to not be alone in the parenting world.

We're very unconditional parenting, so this was way outside of our parenting language zone. I could barely see the actual book, but as read it seemed like the mom instigates all this by making a bunch of pink cupcakes, and then get mad when the child, who can only assume that they are for eating, wants to eat them. It just seemed that way as being read to a bunch of 1-3 year olds, rather than older kids I guess. I hope it was just mob mentality, too.

Other parents can do what they want, but it was odd to see it propogated by someone just reading a book for storytime. Even at the library today the puppet animals were rather violent/threatening in their dialogue, which I suppose is accurate for wild animals, but STILL. It's a show for 2 year olds. Ah well, it was worlds better than the book store. And the librarians are great overall!


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm not into labeling kids: "you're a naughty boy", "you're a bad girl" but I feel comfortable with labeling different actions right or wrong, "naughty" or "nice", "selfish" or "kind".

Maybe I'm writing from my perspective as a mother of older children? Maybe the real problem was that the book in question and its "moral" such as it may be is geared towards children over the age of three?

Simplymother wrote:"But assuming it did happen, my kids wouldn't expect to be shamed like that, or told they did something "naughty". I would probably say something like, wow, it looks like you REALLY wanted another cupcake, repeat my reasons for my original prohibition, maybe move the cupcakes out of sight/reach, depending on the child's age and ability to withstand temptation!!--and help my kid find an acceptable alternative. "

And if they didn't like the "acceptable alternative" (carrot sticks? peanut butter and apples?) and then looked for the cupcakes and found where you hid them, and ate them. What would you call that behavior? At the age of two, I would call that "being a 2 year-old". At the age of 3, maybe something like "not listening to mama". At the age of 5 or so, probably I would say "giving in to temptation" at the age of 7+; I would probably say "that was a naughty thing to do".

When my kids were toddlers, they did stuff which I did not label as "naughty", they were just being toddlers. But as they grew, the standards changed. I'm not a Catholic, but I think the concept of "the age of reason" or "age of discretion" (~ 7 years old) is a good place to start - but I did not wait until they were seven to start using words about right and wrong.

Lots of children's literature is very didactic and "moralistic" and punitive. But, I would not deny my kids the pleasures of stories like "The Elephant's Child" (young elephant runs away because he's always being spanked for asking so many questions) when they were 4 or 5 or the frightening punishments that they enjoy reading about in Greek myths at the age of 7+.


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skreader* 
Simplymother wrote:"But assuming it did happen, my kids wouldn't expect to be shamed like that, or told they did something "naughty". I would probably say something like, wow, it looks like you REALLY wanted another cupcake, repeat my reasons for my original prohibition, maybe move the cupcakes out of sight/reach, depending on the child's age and ability to withstand temptation!!--and help my kid find an acceptable alternative. "

And if they didn't like the "acceptable alternative" (carrot sticks? peanut butter and apples?) and then looked for the cupcakes and found where you hid them, and ate them. What would you call that behavior? At the age of two, I would call that "being a 2 year-old". At the age of 3, maybe something like "not listening to mama". At the age of 5 or so, probably I would say "giving in to temptation" at the age of 7+; I would probably say "that was a naughty thing to do".

When my kids were toddlers, they did stuff which I did not label as "naughty", they were just being toddlers. But as they grew, the standards changed. I'm not a Catholic, but I think the concept of "the age of reason" or "age of discretion" (~ 7 years old) is a good place to start - but I did not wait until they were seven to start using words about right and wrong.

Lots of children's literature is very didactic and "moralistic" and punitive. But, I would not deny my kids the pleasures of stories like "The Elephant's Child" (young elephant runs away because he's always being spanked for asking so many questions) when they were 4 or 5 or the frightening punishments that they enjoy reading about in Greek myths at the age of 7+.

I would call that: "behaving in a way that I don't like" I hate labels of all kinds and know from my own experience that kids even 7 year olds and hey, even 12 year old have trouble separating a behaviour from themselves. If I as a child or even a young teenager heard "that was naughty" I heard "YOU are naughty" That disempowers a child, gives them the impression that they are inherently "bad". You cannot work to change a behaviour if you think it is inherent to your nature.

And yes you can allow your children to enjoy stories that have punitive and moralistic features with what you disagree but I think the OP's biggest problem was with the story reader and other mothers endorsing the moral of the story which struck her as unfair.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 
I would call that: "behaving in a way that I don't like" I hate labels of all kinds and know from my own experience that kids even 7 year olds and hey, even 12 year old have trouble separating a behaviour from themselves. If I as a child or even a young teenager heard "that was naughty" I heard "YOU are naughty" That disempowers a child, gives them the impression that they are inherently "bad". You cannot work to change a behaviour if you think it is inherent to your nature. .

I guess then we have to agree to disagree.









I think that the label of "actions that I don't like" is still a label and a rather too broad and personalized. Because many things that "mama doesn't like" is also behavior that the world at large doesn't like; or even may fall into the realm of "unethical" . There's little stuff like picking nose or chewing w/ mouth open (which I label "unhygienic", "unmannerly" or in kid language: "gross"). Then there's more important stuff - like pushing, grabbing, taking things w/out permission, etc.

I think it's an important life-skill to learn to be able to separate criticism of what one does, from criticism of what one *is*.

Or, conversely, to know that everyone (including parents) does things that fall short of ideal in execution (e.g. not being able to finish a cross-word puzzle) or moral perfection (saying something mean; not taking turns) and those flaws do not mean that we are not forgivable, or that we cannot improve, or that we are not worthy of love.

I think our different views on this are based on different premises on human nature and its flaws and possibility and methods of improvement. But, I'm glad we have a civil forum to discuss these matters.


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## simplymother (Dec 18, 2008)

Quote:



Quote:

Simplymother wrote:"But assuming it did happen, my kids wouldn't expect to be shamed like that, or told they did something "naughty". I would probably say something like, wow, it looks like you REALLY wanted another cupcake, repeat my reasons for my original prohibition, maybe move the cupcakes out of sight/reach, depending on the child's age and ability to withstand temptation!!--and help my kid find an acceptable alternative. "
And if they didn't like the "acceptable alternative" (carrot sticks? peanut butter and apples?) and then looked for the cupcakes and found where you hid them, and ate them. What would you call that behavior? At the age of two, I would call that "being a 2 year-old". At the age of 3, maybe something like "not listening to mama". At the age of 5 or so, probably I would say "giving in to temptation" at the age of 7+; I would probably say "that was a naughty thing to do".
Okay, I'm just trying to think this through here, don't mind me









So what would you do if it was your spouse? Or a friend that came over to visit? I realize it's not the same relationship, and we do have a responsibility over our child's health that we don't have over another adult, but it's the same behavior--shouldn't it warrant the same label?

I don't know about all the changing of the label depending on the age. I mean, I get the point, and appreciate that the younger the child, the more "innocent" it is, but it seems like progressively giving it a worse label involves a lot of judgment, and I never act very sane when I'm being that judgmental.

So what could we call this that would apply at all ages? I don't think I would tell my husband he was being "naughty."

I think the healthiest thing to do would be to avoid judging/labeling at all and just express how *I* felt and was affected by his action.

For the sake of making a comparison, let's imagine I asked my husband not to eat it because I was saving it for something, rather than that I was concerned about his health, since I don't assume responsibility over his health in the same way as my kids. So, "I feel upset that you disregarded my wishes about the cupcakes. And now I don't have it for . . . " And maybe ask him about his reasons, try to understand him, and tell him what I would hope for in the future.

I suppose I could throw my judgment at him, tell him it was a rude and disrespectful thing for him to do, but I don't think it would get us very far in terms of productive conversation, kwim?

Same thing with my kids. And I think the approach I described in my above post is a pretty good replica of that process with the in the child scenario. I COULD give them the naughty label, or the "not listening to mama" label (which I imagine kids of that age interpret in pretty much the same way), but what would be my point in doing that? Is that my way of getting them not to do it again?

If so, is that really the healthiest way? Next time my kid is tempted to take a cupcake, do I want him to think, "Oh, I better not do that because I don't want to be 'naughty'" (This intimidating, obscure term that seems to include any and everything I do that happens to bother an adult.)

I don't think so. What happens when there's no chance of them getting caught (and labeled naughty)?

Or worse, I'm worried they'd come to internalize this concept of themselves as naughty--and anytime they feel tempted to do something wrong, or did make a mistake, it would just be further proof of their badness.

(I'm speaking from experience here, as an adult still trying to overcome the belief that I'm a horrible person because I make mistakes. And keep making mistakes. You can talk to me all day long about how irrational it is, and I could lecture myself as well, but it's another story trying to change my actual feelings.)

But to answer your question, what if we couldn't come up with an acceptable solution and they snuck another cupcake. Well, to be really honest, like I said, we just don't have problems like that here. It wouldn't even happen the first time--they trust my "wisdom" about healthy eating, and they generally accept what I say--OR they know we can talk about it until we come to an agreement. I just don't imagine them pretending to accept it, and then sneaking something when I leave the room, ya know?

Maybe it will happen in the future, they're only 5 and 2 right now. If it does, I hope that we still continue to actively avoid all the labeling (naughty OR nice) and just talk about the actual issues at stake. The need for health. The need for listening to each other, considering each other's perspective. Trust. etc.

I hope I'm not being offensive at all as I try to parse my thoughts and experience on this. And I'm definitely far from perfect from the not labeling/judging thing. But I do have strong beliefs that it's not the most productive or healthy way to go.

And FTR, my belief system includes something similar to the "age of reason". (We call it the age of accountability.) I think around 8 or so is when there's a major shift in the way kids understand things. Mostly this means, before that age I can't even begin to believe I understand the way they see the world (and their actions in it) because I know their thought processes are just so completely, qualitatively different from mine!

But even after that age--like I said, even with adults--I don't think it's helpful to label another person's behavior as good, bad, naughty, nice, etc.

I'm not by any means a moral relativist--I definitely believe there are absolute rights and wrongs. But when's the last time bringing up the fact of someone being "wrong" actually led to a productive, thoughtful discussion and a plan for a better course of action next time? In my experience, as soon as I say, "You were wrong/that was mean/you shouldn't have done that" to anyone, they either get mad or defensive or both.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i do agree there is a difference between calling a child bad and letting them know you do not like something that they did. the behavior is undesireable, not the child. I dont think I would feel comfortalbe using the terms naughty or bad either though, but I would definitely let the child know in some way or another that what they did was wrong, but that I know they are a good person and I hope they make good decisions in the future because I believe that would be a better reflection of who they are.... but probably not in those words. the great thing is, when they are older you can take longer to think about what you are going to say lol


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skreader* 
I think our different views on this are based on different premises on human nature and its flaws and possibility and methods of improvement. But, I'm glad we have a civil forum to discuss these matters.


I agree.


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplymother* 
Okay, I'm just trying to think this through here, don't mind me









So what would you do if it was your spouse? Or a friend that came over to visit? I realize it's not the same relationship, and we do have a responsibility over our child's health that we don't have over another adult, but it's the same behavior--shouldn't it warrant the same label?

I don't know about all the changing of the label depending on the age. I mean, I get the point, and appreciate that the younger the child, the more "innocent" it is, but it seems like progressively giving it a worse label involves a lot of judgment, and I never act very sane when I'm being that judgmental.

So what could we call this that would apply at all ages? I don't think I would tell my husband he was being "naughty."

I think the healthiest thing to do would be to avoid judging/labeling at all and just express how *I* felt and was affected by his action.

For the sake of making a comparison, let's imagine I asked my husband not to eat it because I was saving it for something, rather than that I was concerned about his health, since I don't assume responsibility over his health in the same way as my kids. So, "I feel upset that you disregarded my wishes about the cupcakes. And now I don't have it for . . . " And maybe ask him about his reasons, try to understand him, and tell him what I would hope for in the future.

I suppose I could throw my judgment at him, tell him it was a rude and disrespectful thing for him to do, but I don't think it would get us very far in terms of productive conversation, kwim?

Same thing with my kids. And I think the approach I described in my above post is a pretty good replica of that process with the in the child scenario. I COULD give them the naughty label, or the "not listening to mama" label (which I imagine kids of that age interpret in pretty much the same way), but what would be my point in doing that? Is that my way of getting them not to do it again?

If so, is that really the healthiest way? Next time my kid is tempted to take a cupcake, do I want him to think, "Oh, I better not do that because I don't want to be 'naughty'" (This intimidating, obscure term that seems to include any and everything I do that happens to bother an adult.)

I don't think so. What happens when there's no chance of them getting caught (and labeled naughty)?

Or worse, I'm worried they'd come to internalize this concept of themselves as naughty--and anytime they feel tempted to do something wrong, or did make a mistake, it would just be further proof of their badness.

(I'm speaking from experience here, as an adult still trying to overcome the belief that I'm a horrible person because I make mistakes. And keep making mistakes. You can talk to me all day long about how irrational it is, and I could lecture myself as well, but it's another story trying to change my actual feelings.)

But to answer your question, what if we couldn't come up with an acceptable solution and they snuck another cupcake. Well, to be really honest, like I said, we just don't have problems like that here. It wouldn't even happen the first time--they trust my "wisdom" about healthy eating, and they generally accept what I say--OR they know we can talk about it until we come to an agreement. I just don't imagine them pretending to accept it, and then sneaking something when I leave the room, ya know?

Maybe it will happen in the future, they're only 5 and 2 right now. If it does, I hope that we still continue to actively avoid all the labeling (naughty OR nice) and just talk about the actual issues at stake. The need for health. The need for listening to each other, considering each other's perspective. Trust. etc.

I hope I'm not being offensive at all as I try to parse my thoughts and experience on this. And I'm definitely far from perfect from the not labeling/judging thing. But I do have strong beliefs that it's not the most productive or healthy way to go.

And FTR, my belief system includes something similar to the "age of reason". (We call it the age of accountability.) I think around 8 or so is when there's a major shift in the way kids understand things. Mostly this means, before that age I can't even begin to believe I understand the way they see the world (and their actions in it) because I know their thought processes are just so completely, qualitatively different from mine!

But even after that age--like I said, even with adults--I don't think it's helpful to label another person's behavior as good, bad, naughty, nice, etc.

I'm not by any means a moral relativist--I definitely believe there are absolute rights and wrongs. But when's the last time bringing up the fact of someone being "wrong" actually led to a productive, thoughtful discussion and a plan for a better course of action next time? In my experience, as soon as I say, "You were wrong/that was mean/you shouldn't have done that" to anyone, they either get mad or defensive or both.

That. I think that telling someone they are wrong is ineffective at changing their behaviour. IME it just makes them defensive and they are not motivated to change. I find that with my children and even my husband and all the adults in my life that "I feel... I think" expressions less judgmental and more effective at opening the lines of communication. I'd rather have good communication with my kids than obedient little people (who will probably just do what they want behind my back anyway). I'll take a few cavities to get them there too.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Is it so bad to say that it is naughty to take food that your parents have asked you not to eat? To me, that is wrong and there is nothing wrong with saying so. Like saying it's wrong to hit because it hurts other people. It's wrong to sneak food because food is meant to be shared with the family, not eaten by all one person.

Would anyone here disagree with the statement "Hate is wrong"? Would you really phrase it more, "Hate makes me uncomfortable." Well, that is essentially the same thing: putting a value on an action.

And saying that an action is wrong is not at all the same as saying, "You were wrong," although frankly, I think that saying, "When you do X, I feel Y" implies as much, because the person has to infer that causing you to feel Y is somehow bad, otherwise, who gives a hoot how you feel, you know? "When you don't do the dishes, I feel neglected." And you feeling neglected is... bad? Translation: "When you don't do the dishes, something bad happens." Translation: "What you did make something bad happen." Inference: It is somehow bad to make bad things happen (by definition). Translation: "What you did was bad."

I do think that killing, stealing, insulting, violating, lying about, etc. are wrong in ways more than, "they make me personally feel bad". They directly or indirectly cause pain to other people which is wrong and I'm not afraid to say so in as many words. No matter how I say it, if my child is intelligent, she will pick that up.

I do not think you are crazy, not at all. But you are asking people to use a specific vocabulary for morality that is not shared by them and I think that is somewhat demanding. In those terms, "When you ask me to use your longer, more you-centered speech to talk about morality, I feel like you are just trying to avoid talking about uncomfortable topics, things that I value greatly, and therefore, that you do not respect my values."

Does that really make it easier to take? No? I didn't think so. May fool someone once or twice, but ultimately, the "I feel - you feel" statements, when intended to express dissatisfaction, do not fool anyone either. I should know, I was raised with them and all I learned was that any time a sentence started with "When you...", I was going to hear a complaint about something that my mom wasn't happy with. By the time I was ten, I would interrupt with, "You want me to do the dishes and you are unhappy that I didn't do them, right?"

Didn't make me grow up to be more accepting, either, heh.


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## Latenightanarchy (Jan 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I really want to homeschool my kids but I did my best with my son and he has a learning disability (technically ASD but I don't think of him as autistic...) anyway, I will be removing him from the school eventually I think.. for now he needs to be there and his teacher is AWESOME and 95% of the people who work at that school are truly amazing... I am also going to start volunteering there soon... it just struck a nerve with me an I will probably report it to his teacher.

Sorry to go OT here but there are good support systems for homeschooling children with disabilities. I was reading this thread thinking about how far I've come in changing the old hard fast rule of "listen to me or else" and how much better our lives are because of it. When I saw what you said, I wanted to encourage you. If this is something you want to do please research it. I have an aspie (ASD) who I homeschool. If that isn't gentle parenting, I don't know what is. He isn't treated badly because of his disability, he is treated fairly and with love at home. We do playgroups and eca (extra curricular activities) and our psychiatrist says he's amazed at the progress and happiness of my child. I try to encourage others who are feeling pulled in this direction.









Sorry for hijacking.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Yes, Edna.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Is it so bad to say that it is naughty to take food that your parents have asked you not to eat? To me, that is wrong and there is nothing wrong with saying so. Like saying it's wrong to hit because it hurts other people. It's wrong to sneak food because food is meant to be shared with the family, not eaten by all one person.

I do think that killing, stealing, insulting, violating, lying about, etc. are wrong in ways more than, "they make me personally feel bad". They directly or indirectly cause pain to other people which is wrong and I'm not afraid to say so in as many words. No matter how I say it, if my child is intelligent, she will pick that up.


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## KK'sMommy (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Is it so bad to say that it is naughty to take food that your parents have asked you not to eat? To me, that is wrong and there is nothing wrong with saying so. Like saying it's wrong to hit because it hurts other people. It's wrong to sneak food because food is meant to be shared with the family, not eaten by all one person.

Saying something is naughty is not the same as saying a child is naughty. Taking a cupcake without permission is a naughty thing to do. Children need to learn that certain behaviors are not acceptable. I think we can all agree that stealing a cupcake from a bakery is unacceptable. It is the same thing for a child to take a cupcake without asking permission. Unacceptable behaviors have consequences. I think it is morally and ethically our responsibility as parents to teach our children this very basic concept.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

i don't agree with the way the storyreader went about it. i would not have chimed in with the other mothers. we don't use "naughty" and "bad". however, i cannot wrap my mind around not telling children (or anyone for that matter) that something is wrong with what they are doing. it seems that the internalization of "naughty" or "bad" would come more from how the parents are delivering the message than the actual message itself. had i snuck a cupcake as a child, i would have heard something alone the lines of "are you deaf? how dumb can you be?" i don't think that's ok. there's little chance of NOT internalizing that kind of talk from a parent. i don't think i'd have had the same feelings if i'd been told "i told you not to and you did anyway. what you did was wrong." yes, i may have felt remorse, guilt...but i can't see what would be wrong with that. if i wanted a cupcake that was reserved for my brother and ate it anyway, i can't see any way that i could call that "right" or "okay". if i wanted a cupcake after having 3 and my mom said "honey, that's enough - it's not healthy to eat so many cupcakes because......" then it seems that if she were to really say nothing but "oh well, you must have really wanted it" totally negates her "that's not healthy" argument to the point of why does my mother even bother to try and guide me if i can do what i want anyway? it seems that would be trying to raise our children to never have to feel bad about anything they do - that they should always be able to rationalize it away as being their own individual human with individual needs and preferences.
if i don't have this interpretation correct, please inform me. i'm always looking for better ways because i don't want to shame my children. i want them to think for themselves and not do it because it's wrong - not because of fear of punishment/labeling/shaming. but i don't want to go so far as to let them think that nothing they do could ever be labeled as "wrong".
so confusing...


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

I just don't think the attitude of listen to me or else I'll call you mean names makes for very happy families. I know from growing up that being called "naughty" is a far cry from being told "I don't like that you snuck that cupcake." I don't know about you but the first really really would hurt my feelings; the second makes me think "okay, I shouldn't have taken the cupcake." But again maybe that only works for me and my kids.

I know my husband responds better to "I feel taken for granted when you throw your dirty clothes all over" than "you're a slob" It just makes life move smoother.

I'm sorry that this approach doesn't work for you EdnaMarie, but I'm very sensitive and the "I" statements really do work better for me and for my kids to get us to change our behaviour. I know that there are some moral black and whites but if you phrase things in the proper way for your audience you will get better responses. If you called my son's behaviour "naughty" he gets so upset that he doesn't hear anymore than naughty. If you phrase it in a "I" statement, he hears and understands what to do differently. As for me or my husband if you preface what you say with "that was wrong" we get defensive and tune out the rest of the issue.

That's all, using language like good, bad, wrong, naughty does not make for good conflict resolution in our house.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi Sahmama12,

I don't think anyone on this thread advocates calling children mean names. Instead, I (and some other mamas) believe that it is OK to categorically define certain *behavior* as "naughty", "wrong" etc.

For example, when my son told us something happened at school which we later found out did not happen at school; we explained that not telling the truth is also called lying, that it is wrong, and that it destroys trust. We did not call him a "liar".

For me, I don't see that stating "I don't like that you snuck a cupcake" is that less wounding than "Sneaking food that people set aside for something else is wrong". But, everyone parents from their his or her own history and environment, and so we all do what works best for us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 
I just don't think the attitude of listen to me or else I'll call you mean names makes for very happy families. I know from growing up that being called "naughty" is a far cry from being told "I don't like that you snuck that cupcake." I don't know about you but the first really really would hurt my feelings; the second makes me think "okay, I shouldn't have taken the cupcake." But again maybe that only works for me and my kids.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 
I just don't think the attitude of listen to me or else I'll call you mean names makes for very happy families. I know from growing up that being called "naughty" is a far cry from being told "I don't like that you snuck that cupcake." I don't know about you but the first really really would hurt my feelings; the second makes me think "okay, I shouldn't have taken the cupcake." But again maybe that only works for me and my kids.

I know my husband responds better to "I feel taken for granted when you throw your dirty clothes all over" than "you're a slob" It just makes life move smoother.

I'm sorry that this approach doesn't work for you EdnaMarie, but I'm very sensitive and the "I" statements really do work better for me and for my kids to get us to change our behaviour. I know that there are some moral black and whites but if you phrase things in the proper way for your audience you will get better responses. If you called my son's behaviour "naughty" he gets so upset that he doesn't hear anymore than naughty. If you phrase it in a "I" statement, he hears and understands what to do differently. As for me or my husband if you preface what you say with "that was wrong" we get defensive and tune out the rest of the issue.

That's all, using language like good, bad, wrong, naughty does not make for good conflict resolution in our house.

Name-calling is NOT what I am advocating. Saying, "That girl is a jerk" would be totally inappropriate. Saying what she did was wrong was not.

Also, have you ever considered that your son might be sensitive to the word "naughty" because you don't use it in those terms so he only hears it when others are really angry? I remember the first time I heard someone use direct descriptions of my actions- not subjective but objective terms- and I was very shocked.

I am not suggesting you change what works for you. What I am saying is, "I" statements do not work for everyone as a method of communication and it is unreasonable to ask the whole world to frame their moral conversations so that one doesn't have to use words one doesn't like.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

So if you don't listen to your parents the worst that can happen to you is that you'll be pink and get to eat a bunch of cupcakes? Um.... darn.


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## smibbo (Jan 14, 2009)

I rarely comment on the actions of my child per se. It's either "look at you! you're [engaging in behavior I want to foster] and you're doing it so well!" or it's "don't do that. I don't like that"

Considering how much fun I have with my kids, how often I praise their actions and engage in things with them, I seriously doubt when I say "I don't like that [action]" they hear "I don't like YOU"

I give my kids credit; they know what "I don't like that" means.


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## smibbo (Jan 14, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 
I just don't think the attitude of listen to me or else I'll call you mean names makes for very happy families. I know from growing up that being called "naughty" is a far cry from being told "I don't like that you snuck that cupcake." I don't know about you but the first really really would hurt my feelings; the second makes me think "okay, I shouldn't have taken the cupcake." But again maybe that only works for me and my kids.

Ha... my kids (and those I babysit) would probably be thinking "but I _want_ the cupcake!" even if they said "I'm sorry" lol

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 
I know my husband responds better to "I feel taken for granted when you throw your dirty clothes all over" than "you're a slob" It just makes life move smoother.

I agree, I just tell my husband the same as my kids, "don't do that, I don't like that" Because when you are talking about something you don't want to happen, I see no sense in pussyfooting around and making vague statements like "it makes me feel ____ when you ____" because its possible the response would be "well what can I do to not make you feel ____ while I'm doing ____"
People try to find ways around being restricted. If something important enough to me, I just plainly state "don't do that"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahmama_12* 

That's all, using language like good, bad, wrong, naughty does not make for good conflict resolution in our house.

Everyone's different. My sons seem to get offended if I ask "have the dogs been walked recently?" as some kind of underhanded insult, but if I just say "hey go walk the dogs" they get up and do it without all the teen angst.


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## 1momct (Dec 18, 2005)

Is there something wrong with "I'm upset the (additional) cupcakes are gone?"

and following it with...

What can we do to insure this (particular event) doesn't happen in the future, and how can we fix the existing problem now?"


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

If my dp ate the cupcake(s) I had set aside i would have no trouble saying "That was rude!" or "I set those cupcakes aside for after dinner, and you ate them for breakfast and I'm mad etc"

(I don't use the word "naughty" because it has sexual connotations for me and therefore makes me uncomfortable, but that's my own trip)


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smibbo* 
Because when you are talking about something you don't want to happen, I see no sense in pussyfooting around and making vague statements like "it makes me feel ____ when you ____" because its possible the response would be "well what can I do to not make you feel ____ while I'm doing ____"

That's not pussyfooting; it's nonviolent communication. What's wrong with that follow-up comment? That's a valid question. Just saying "Do not ___" leaves them no room for understanding your motivation, and no room for negotiation.


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