# You cannot possibly know...



## hmk123 (Jan 9, 2009)

I hate it when people tell me that I cannot possibly know what I will do when I actually have a baby, about how I will raise them and what I will and will not do.

"You cannot possibly know until you actually have them. Then you will see and change your mind." My sister is particualrly annoying on this subject.

How do I know that my baby will eat local and/or organic food? Because hubby and I already do, at least 85% of the time, it will require no change in our lifestyle at all.

How do I know I will make baby food? Because I cook EVERYNIGHT and our blender and food processor sits perpetually on the counter for our daily uses. And since we grow organic veggies on our farm, why would I feed my child those organic veggies which Gerber got frow who knows where and squashed up for me?

How do I know that I will use cloth diapers? Well I may not 100% of the time, but since I already take care of my own needs with cloth it is not a stretch to expand that to my children.

How do I know... Because I already live that way! I am already crunchy, so why would I become less so when we add our first little person into our lives?







:

Just thought I would vent...


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Oh, sweetie, it doesn't end after the baby is born. Then you get the "wait til they start walking', 'wait til they start talking back', 'wait til they have a sibling', wait 'til, wait 'til, wait 'til..... It never ends. You will eventually fall into line with the mainstream because of something that your kids do. I'm expecting to hear 'wait til you have grandkids' in twenty years.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I hear you! I heard a lot of that before I became a mom. Even on these boards, I heard it a couple of times: People said that once I gave birth I'd understand why I couldn't go back to work, or that once I had a child who was partly toilet-trained I'd understand why they have to wear disposable pants every night.







All of those people were wrong! It's not that I never change my mind about anything, just that the things I've changed all have been things I wasn't sure about in advance: I said I'd breastfeed for at least one year, but I didn't set an upper limit, and I breastfed for over two years. I said I'd start out sleeping with the baby and see how it went and probably have him sleep alone once he was nightweaned, and now he's 4 years old and completely weaned and I still sleep with him most nights. I said I didn't want to get a highchair before he was born because we might not need it, and then we bought one when he was 11 months old. Etc.

Most often, what people want when they say things like that is to have their own decisions validated. So, if I think I can possibly stand to hear their opinions, I say, "Tell me more about how that worked out for you." and let them spell out their whole procedure and decision-making process. Even if I still think they're wrong, at least I get to know them better and they feel that I listened.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, it's true that weird unforeseen circumstances happen, but some things DO go according to plan.


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## hmk123 (Jan 9, 2009)

"You will use a bottle because you don't want to breast feed in a public restroom." Well, you are right I do not want to breast feed in a public bathroom, and I will not but that does not mean that I will not breastfeed in public...









I am ready to be flexiable, but I do see what you mean about people want their own decisions validated. They could not or choose not to so I will not or should not either.


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## kiwiva (Apr 17, 2006)

I just made a point to NOT talk to people about what I planned to do unless asked directly and actually still don't 2 years later often until after the fact. But even then, they talk to others. My cousin was dissing me to others at my baby shower bc I planned a natural birth. She was pregnant and not planning that at all.

Just get used to it. Seriously once the baby is here, if everything isn't perfect they will tell you how much worse it could be or usually that it is/was worse for them. If it is going well, then the "just waits" go on and on.

I think some people are trying to be helpful but it is SOOOOOOO annoying! Definitely everyone else is trying to validate their own actions. And in the 27 months since my daughter was born I have never nursed in a bathroom (I have nursed almost everywhere else though!!).

And I have become MORE crunchy since DD. Tell her if she doesn't have anything supportive to say, please keep her opinions to herself as that sort of talk is not helpful.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

It is odd because none of what you are suggesting is outlandish to me. None of it requires super human effort and it cannot be denied that these choices are the best and most sensible ones.

I really think a lot of the time people are justifying why they couldn't/wouldn't make the same choice. If someone does it 'better' then that casts doubt on them. It is easier to say "it is impossible" rather than "I didn't want to".

Cloth diapering is super easy, so is making baby food and why would anyone choose to feed their baby in a toilet? Why wouldn't you just nurse outside? Plus the whole hygiene issue when it comes to formula - yucky stuff.

Expect pinched faces whenever you are able to do something others can't be bothered to do (not saying this is the only reason people don't but in many cases IME it is). I've rarely received validation for the things I do for my ds but I'm not doing it for others! My validation is in seeing my little boy healthy, bright and happy. As yours will be when you make great choices for your dc.

Perhaps ask your sister what she found so difficult about cloth diapering. IME most people who slag it off haven't even tried it. Then at least you can turn the tables and examine her thinking instead of having the focus on you.
Ignore the nay sayers and do it your way. There are many things I didn't change at all from before I had my ds, in fact having him made me more committed to my ideals not less.

Congrats on your impending family!


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## SkyMomma (Jul 13, 2006)

I clicked on this post because I found myself saying the "you won't know until you have kids..." line to my sister yesterday. Tho' I was saying "You won't know until you have a baby how little you'll get done in one day!" It was great to read everyone's responses...reminds me that I'm not the only crunchy out-there mom out there







I got a ton of those "just wait" comments from my much more mainstream friends, but funny thing, found myself getting even more alternative & AP once DS1 was born. Like, I never thought I'd BF past 1 yr. Well, DS1 self-weaned @ 3.5.

Oh, & I've definately nursed while in the bathroom. My own. While peeing. Sometimes neither of us could wait.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Well, it's true that weird unforeseen circumstances happen, but some things DO go according to plan.


Exactly


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

of course there's unseen circumstances

anyhow

i would try not to get hurt over this.

it's possible that your sister is speaking more out of her own self-conscious fear that you are judging her for not doing the things you are planning

maybe in her perfect world she would do some of those things, or at least more thing that are in line with her priorities, but doesn't have the time or motivation. maybe in her circumstances she didn't even get to think about certain things she wished she had thought about before having kids.

i think almost every time someone isn't completely supportively listening to us and responding empathetically, it's because they are dealing with their own issues around the matter

maybe you could try responding to her unspoken feelings and get some good deep talking going on instead of taking it personally


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Ooooh!!! That is a HUGE peeve of mine.

"Oh, you are NOT A MOMMY yet, so you couldn't possibly understand."

Okay, first of all, my stepdaughter has been in my life (about 40% of the time) since she was 2. I have been pooped on, peed on, puked on, lost more sleep than I care to recount. I have held her hand while the doctor reset her dislocated elbow (and the desk chose the wrong time to pull her dad out to fill out the paperwork) and have gladly traded places with her. No, I cannot understand chapped nipples or recovering from a fourth-degree

Second of all...what does this have to do with the environmental impact of cloth diapers versus disposable? With what size shoe an average 4-year-old wears? With why I've had better results from roasting a chicken at 450 for 15 minutes then 325 the rest of the way to proper temperature, versus 350 for a set amount of time per pound? (Yes, I got told that I couldn't understand all of the above, by perfect strangers at a baby shower because I am "not a Mommy," whatever that means. "I don't have time to watch a thermometer. When you're a mom, you'll understand." Yeah.)


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

People say that because THEIR real life experiences were not the same as their expectations/dreams/concerns whatever about parenting.

And it's true, there are some things you just can't know how you'll deal with until you're in the thick of things.

But lifestyle stuff - the stuff you're already doing and will simply extend to your child/ren - is a pretty safe bet you'll continue.

I'd guess the people telling you that you won't do all the crunchy stuff with your kids don't live that way themselves, so it seems impossible/overachieving to them, maybe?

But, in general, I didn't/don't talk about parenting except with people I know share my outlook. It's just easier.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I hated hearing things like that (and still hearing them to a degree -- "you'll see it differently when you have teenagers," etc).

So far, I haven't deviated much if at all from the way I planned to raise my children when I was pregnant with my first. If anything, I've become more liberal and more crunchy, not less (which was the prediction everyone made).

There's nothing you can do but give it time and how people how wrong they are . . . but in the meantime, it does suck!


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I hated being told this before DD was born. I was a nanny, so I had plenty of experience, and was very confident, perhaps overly confident.

However, Iearnt the hard way that you have to parent the baby you've got, not the one you planned on having!

So we planned to give our baby only organic food, freshly made(after 6 months), and of course we do (we do Baby Led Weaning, or self-feeding).

We planned to breastfeed, until she wants to wean, no formula, no bottles, and so far so good, although it certainly wasn't easy for us. I had low milk-supply, and we worked really hard on feeding for 6 months, and used donated milk in a Supplemental Nursing System.

We planned to use cloth nappies, but ended up using disposables for about 6 months (many reasons, I was to tired at first, then I couldn't find any organic cloth nappies that fitted my tiny baby, who at 10 months still fits the newborn sized cloth nappies).

We planned to do EC, and we do. Also, for this reason I insisted we'd use only tops, no onesies or anything else with buttons in the crotch. Easy.

We planned on using only organic clothes, nappies, sheets etc, and we do.

We have got a lot more toys than I planned to (I'm quite toy minimalist), but a least they are all organic/natural, and she had only a couple of stuffed toys and a teething peg by 4 months.We just got her some more, as plenty of toys is the only way I can get a couple of minutes without her in my arms - or chasing her to keep her away from vacuum cleaner, push chair and other things we just can' t put away anywhere in our tiny flat.

I planned to babywear, but DD loved the push chair, and hated being restricted by any of the slings/wrap tyings, and always wanted to be held upright anyway. Now we use the Ergo, which is the first one she didn't hate, but we've just had it for 2 months.

We got a moses basket for DD to sleep in the daytime, so I could keep her close, what a joke! She slept there twice in the first few weeks. Our baby would only sleep in her push chair in the daytime, and now in the Ergo.

I've cooked maybe three meals since DD was born, and burnt one of them, once DD's hand was burnt too. And I was only able to start doing the dishes when she was 8 months old, and started sleeping better in the Ergo. I always cooked and cleaned at work - easy!

I was going to make most of her clothes - I used to make mine, and knitted a lot for her before she was born. I've found it impossible with baby in arms.

We planned to do signing with her, and we do.

We planned not to let her watch any TV, but as she stays up as late as we do, and has never slept away from me, well, we do enjoy watching a pre-recorded episode of Bones or House or the Antiques Road Show or sometimes a film.

Some things have changed, and things certainly didn't turn out the way we planned (just like the home birth, unfortunately), but we are still us, and we do things our way. Every baby is different, as is every parent, so I think it is hard to tell anyone what it is going to be like.

Although, I did think "you have no idea what it's like", to a friend of mine, who still has no children of her own, when she told me that DH and I "had needs too", after learning DD sleeps either in bed with us or in the Ergo. I think I said something like "Well, needs change somewhat after having a baby. I need a long shower by myself once in a while, o example." I don' t think she understood what I meant (I meant that I'm not a saint, doing without what I need for my baby's sake, there are usually other things I need more than DTD).


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## Dame (Aug 30, 2007)

There were lots of things I planned to do with my DD that didn't quite work out. I planned to co-sleep, but she had other ideas. I planned to breastfeed but have been exclusively pumping for 9 months because we had numerous issues. I wanted to cloth diaper, but couldn't for various reasons.
I think it's great to have lots of plans for your child, but also to be flexible and realize that sometimes life throws you curves balls and you have to be willing to shift your ideas to what works best for your family.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I think it's true that often people respond that way because they somehow feel you are judging them, which means they are feeling a little inadequate. It's annoying, but probably best to handle them gently.

Other times they may just be concerned that you will put too much pressure on yourself, in which case it's probably best to appreciate their concern, though it is still annoying.

Also sometimes it is just a matter of the other person trying to share her experiences with you.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I really feel that mothering is like most life experiences. How can I ever truly, deeply KNOW/UNDERSTAND the ins/outs of mothering unless I am actually a mother? I don't think it's possible. That being said, I have only said that to one person who kept insinuating I was wrong in terms of CIO, family bed etc. - never having a child herself. I understand the need to plan/ formulate ideas on mothering before having one- I certainly did this!! Some worked out and some didn't- just like every other well-laid plan in life


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

My DD is 20mo and I got this from another mom I met yesterday at the park... who has one 20mo, too. I don't know, maybe she was looking to validate things that she'd changed from her plans. It came right after I mentioned I was there with an AP group, though. I could hardly believe it. We're at the exact same level of experience in motherhood









I got some laughs about cloth dipes and other things beforehand, too. Just having already read about the experience of getting these comments helped me just laugh inside.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Hmmm... well, there are so many things about children and being a parent that i thought i "knew" before and... was i wrong!!

I think parenting is like visiting another country- sure, you might *know* that you'll wear sunscreen and take pictures etc... etc... and you will. easy. but the feelings, reactions, emotional journey are the things that you can never know. Those are the things that i find myself eluding to with friends who aren't moms yet. But even then, i've learned to just keep my mouth shut. Because being told ahead of time makes no difference. It doesn't change anything, it doesn't prepare you, and it's only another person's experience.


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## hrsmom (Jul 4, 2008)

I agree- irritating! When I was pregnant, I used to share things I was excited about to my friends, and I learned early on that it was a waste of breath and invitation to frustration. (My friends when I was pregnant all had adult children.) I wish I had found this site when I was pregnant, I could have shared my excitement about certain things! (I remember talking about co-sleeping for example, which went over like a lead balloon. Whatever.)

Before I was even pregnant, two different people asked me why I babysat in the nursery at church. That made me so sad! Why wouldn't I? It's so much fun to hold them and watch them play, for starters! People are weird!

Some things do go way different from "the plan" but that is life in general.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

I think there is some truth to the idea that you don't know until your there...so many people seem to be experts on how they will raise their kids until they have kids. (not saying you claim to be an expert-- I'm talking in general) However, it is great to think about what what you want and how you for see things happening. You know, you might not make all your child's baby food. Or, use cloth diapers 100% or whatever...but you might!
There is no reason for her to dismiss your ideas. I suspect she has some guilt or self-doubt that is clouding the way she regards you.
Just remember that she may throw it back in your face if you don't do something you think you will and that can be rough too.
Just don't talk to her about this stuff...lots of people at MDC will support you!


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
However, Iearnt the hard way that you have to parent the baby you've got, not the one you planned on having!

omg, words to live by


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

The things you are saying aren't outrageous at all imo but they are to a lot of mainstream society. Being here on MDC makes you feel you are normal and everything is possible but other folks don't have this luxury!

That said, you can never be sure. I sent a load of tiny vests and tops for ECing to a mum on the UK ec yahoo group who was dead set on ECing her newborn when he or she arrived. It turned out that her birth didn't go as she had hoped, she was more physically traumatised than she would have hoped, breastfeeding didn't go easily, sleeping didn't either and ECing was just one step too far for her to consider when keeping body and soul together was all she could do for months and months.

Keep your principles for sure but be prepared to flex a little this way and that if you need to. Don't draw too many lines in the sand either or you'll have people calling you on them later.

I'm a mum of 4 here from teen to toddler and well used to defying expectations and providing evidence in human form that how we raise our children does actually work but go easy on yourself the first time round


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ProtoLawyer* 
With why I've had better results from roasting a chicken at 450 for 15 minutes then 325 the rest of the way to proper temperature, versus 350 for a set amount of time per pound? (Yes, I got told that I couldn't understand all of the above, by perfect strangers at a baby shower because I am "not a Mommy," whatever that means. "I don't have time to watch a thermometer. When you're a mom, you'll understand." Yeah.)

I think it's ridiculous and insulting when someone tries to claim that they know what you'll end up doing better than you yourself do.

I believe it's entirely possible that there are parents of newborns, who are good at cooking and for whom it's a priority, that can successfully roast a chicken the way you describe. You may very well be one of them.









HOWEVER I think only a parent of a small baby can understand just how difficult such a feat can become.







:

I guess I find "*I* don't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll understand" to be inoffensive, whereas "*You* won't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll see."

It's the whole 'oh, you'll be begging for drugs in labor' thing all over again. Why can't people just say "I thought I wouldn't need drugs, but then I really wanted them" instead? or "Before I became a mom, I thought my kids would never watch TV, but now they do all time because I need to get things done."

I guess it's easier to mock other people's choices than to own up to yours.


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

Sure I was prepared that not all things would happen as I expected, but those comments drove me nuts anyway - like I somehow didn't know to be flexible according to my child's needs.

I had so many people laugh at me when I said I would do a cloth/disposable combo. They all said "you'll see..." and you know what.... I love fuzzibunz!!! (and still do disposable when out/overnight like I planned)

Now people give me a strange look when I say that my 8 month old doesn't watch any t.v. (they didn't take me seriously when I said it when I was pregnant either) Then they usually try to tell how much "so and so's kid learned so much from that kids show" Or I get the "wait until you have #2, there's no avoiding t.v then..."

I still get people asking me why DS doesn't have a pacifier.

In the end the great part about being a parent, is that _you_ get to decide how to parent.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

I have been on both sides of this fence and sometimes I think that those who don't have children yet, should think carefully about how they word their comments so as not to come across like they are judging another parent (not saying OP, that you did this).

I get advice ALL the time on how to raise my children and on pregnancy and on childbirth and and and.... and I have 6 children and one on the way!

Yet, before I had children I had many ideas of what I was going to do.... and for the most part that is what we did! There has been seasons when we didn't cloth diaper (like during an international move) etc. etc. etc. But on the whole I think it is wonderful that the OP already knows what she wants!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

:


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

All I'm going to say is that becoming a parent has been the most amazing, and the most humbling experience of my life. I've eaten my fair share of crow, and my daughter is only 3 years old.

And if you had told me that before she was born, I would have told you to f off. (well, not really to your face, but I would have been pretty indignant.)

That is all.


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## kneedeepnkidz (Jul 24, 2006)

People do say it all the time, and its true. You really don't know what its like until you have kids. That being said, it does not mean that you will not do most of what you set out to do. If you plan to cloth diaper, you most likely will. If you plan to and already eat organic food, then you will more than likely continue to do that.

However, once you have kids, your priorities change. Not just because you have a child, but because of that particular child. When I was pregnant with my second child, I figured I already had the answers as to how I would handle a newborn. I already had one, so I had it under control.







But- my second baby could not have been more different in tempermant, needs, etc. Same with my third and fourth. My point is, until the child is born, you will not know exactly how it will be. And the more kids you have, the more you realize just how unpredictable children can be. It does not mean that you won't follow through with most of your pre-child plans. You may just have to get more creative.

And really, it never stops. Before I had a teenager (egads!) I thought it would be a breeze and all those other parents were just failing to see how easy it would be! My goodness! Nothing could have prepared me for this age.

Parenting is a wonderful and trying and exciting and a truly life changing, eye-opening experience.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kneedeepnkidz* 
My point is, until the child is born, you will not know exactly how it will be. And the more kids you have, the more you realize just how unpredictable children can be.

So very true!


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

I say this to my sister on almost a daily basis, "just wait till you have your own kids". She is TTC, but I think the difference is the perceived negative or positive outcome.

For example, my sister was saying she could NEVER have a drug free birth (I have had two and 4 c-sections, working on number 5) I told her she just doesn't know her own strength and wont understand it until she is pg and having her own baby. She will have something deep her in her that she has never experienced and not to count herself out just yet.

She also said she doesn't know if she could stay home with a baby because she might get bored. Again, I told her to just wait until she has her own kids. Not to set anything in stone and to PREPARE for her to stay home full time and financially not get into any situations that would require her to work. She is a lot stronger then she thinks she is and CAN do it if that is what she wants. She watched me do all of this at 17, she can do it if she wants at closing in on 30.

Now my MIL says stupid stuff to me when I talk about my plans (breast feeding exclusively, co sleeping, cloth diapers, NIP etc). And she tells me all the time "just wait till you have the baby, you will hate it and change your mind". HELLO, did she forget I have nursed multiple babies or that I have been a mother before. So she bugs me with that, I just hope I don't bug my sister. I want to encourage her to trust in herself and never say never when it comes to her ability to do the best by her baby.

So really, I don't think there are many things you can truly KNOW until you have kids. I am still learning daily. I have 3 kids living with me, one of which is a special needs step son and i am doing things I thought I would NEVER in a million years do (like medication for his needs), but the best thing you can do with parenthood is learning to go with the flow and doing what is best for that particular child. But all of the things that the OP mentioned just seem like the easiest way to do things and well, nothing out of the ordinary and something that most if not all moms if they can, should try to do.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

When people say stuff like that, it's not that they're questioning your values or commitment. And as previous posters have said, you never quite know how your priorities might change or how you might respond to specific situations.

I was totally committed to CD'ing from birth, but the birth ended up being a lot more traumatic than I ever anticipated, and I ended up with some health problems. So instead of a newborn in cute cloth, we used sposies until I was feeling better, which was around 3 months postpartum. We were good with cloth for a while, until DD was around 12 months, she was (and still is, at 3 years!) a big night time nurser, which equalled a super-soaking peeing baby. So out went the night-time cloth and we used sposies, because I tried every single permutation of inserts and covers and it's just not fun to wake up to wet sheets.

I have friends who were committed to breastfeeding, but ended up with supply issues. Those mamas don't have to hand in their crunch cards because they had to supplement.

I do agree that your sister's declaration that you'll change your mind is annoying, but perhaps her point was that one of the qualities that really serves us well as mothers is flexibility?


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## kneedeepnkidz (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
one of the qualities that really serves us well as mothers is flexibility?

Absolutely!


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

People tried to tell me a lot of things when I was pregnant...so far we've been doing all the things we planned on doing. I think the biggest thing people reacted to was the cloth diapering...they told me it'd be too much trouble.







Even DH thinks the cloth are way easier to use. He have used very few disposables. I don't even own a washing machine! I have to lug diapers to my aunt's two days a week...but I still do them!

A lot of people asked me "what if breastfeeding doesn't work out?" Well...I made it work out. It was hard, yes...but we've made it this far!


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
*I think it's ridiculous and insulting when someone tries to claim that they know what you'll end up doing better than you yourself do.*

I believe it's entirely possible that there are parents of newborns, who are good at cooking and for whom it's a priority, that can successfully roast a chicken the way you describe. You may very well be one of them.









HOWEVER I think only a parent of a small baby can understand just how difficult such a feat can become.







:

I guess I find "*I* don't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll understand" to be inoffensive, whereas "*You* won't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll see."

*It's the whole 'oh, you'll be begging for drugs in labor' thing all over again. Why can't people just say "I thought I wouldn't need drugs, but then I really wanted them" instead?* or "Before I became a mom, I thought my kids would never watch TV, but now they do all time because I need to get things done."

*I guess it's easier to mock other people's choices than to own up to yours.*









: (bolding mine)

Many people also make good points in saying that the actual experience of having a child (like any experience!) is not fully realized until you are in that moment and time and place, but these types of comments are not along those lines imho.

I would not be offended by that particular sentiment, nor by the expression of one's own experiences, _owning_ them as one's own (I like the example above about drugs in labor).. But many of the time these comments are made, it conveys a clear message of- your ideas are wrong and ridiculous. A parent who plans to do disposable diapers or CIO does not get these comments- these comments are often value judgments on non-mainstream practices. Because really, we all plan and hope and think and dream about these things, especially when expecting a child, but even before that.

In most cases, people feel no need to constantly question the fact that we are planning for our little one's arrival- that is a given for any parent- or to remind us that we won't really truly know until we are there. Obviously, everyone knows that things can change and that not everything goes according to plan with little ones, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't think about these things and how we want to best go about them, or have a plan in place. All parents make certain plans, such as how they might feed and clothe and diaper their child, whether they will be working at home or out of home or stay at home, etc. Above and beyond the natural urge to learn ad plan for your child's arrival, the logistics of these things require certain discussions between partners, purchases made, things put into place. So if we had to wait until we had a child to know for sure, and couldn't plan ahead, things would get pretty hectic, you know?

Plus, I think that there are steps one can take to gain a realistic point of view and learn about all the options beforehand, even though obviously the final "test" is the actual experience of raising that particular child.. If I planned to do things a certain way without learning anything about it, I would hope someone would gently point out that I might want to research what all that choice entails.. but really, most people I know in the NFL/AP community here and in general do more research on these choices than others do on more conventional choices. I guess what bothers me most is that I have thought about what my choices entail, ethically and practically, and researched options, talked with others, etc. For someone who did things a certain way because that is "how things are done" to tell me that I don't know what I am getting myself into is offensive, because really, it should be the other way around. I can be pretty much okay with a wide variety of parenting choices if those parents have taken the time and energy to discuss them and think about them and research them, but for someone who has not done so to insinuate that they know better than I do irks me, because it is a symptom of the greater society in which we are taught not to question and taught to disdain and dismiss as wrong and crazy and extreme anything that differs from that which is accepted as mainstream.. so I suppose the issue brings up deeper issues for me lol.

I do feel it's important to be flexible, but I don't think that should stop one from planning- for example, if I plan to do cloth diapers and EC, which I do, I will read about the different issues and purchase the correct supplies, which I have. If I choose to use disposables I can always do that too, any store sells them and I can always go get them, and I do have one pack of 7th Gen disposables at home as well, as back-up if I have a difficult birth and can't do laundry or get to a store, or the washer breaks, etc. I am prepared for the fact I may need them, but also planning for the fact that I may just as easily not. But that is different from someone insinuating that my desire to plan for cloth and EC is ridiculous and unfounded, because I am naive and uninformed.

Now I also realize that the actual INTENT behind these comments is the need to validate one's own parenting.. I understand that the intent is not to be malicious, and that there are deeper issues, so I do try not to get offended. It makes sense that many people have to feel that my choices are not feasible or reasonable, that they are impossible and extreme and excessive, because if they were to acknowledge that they are in fact do-able and caring choices, they would have to question the fact that they didn't avail themselves of those choices. But I can relate to those who feel offended by these comments, because they are rather offensive when taken at face value!

I agree with the above, that I would be perfectly okay with, and appreciate, someone owning their choices and sharing their experience. I would also welcome respectful discussion about the pros and cons of different options, or what resources I have found most helpful to prepare for the choices I am making, or recommendations for resources you find helpful, or whether there is anything you can do to help support me in making my choices for my family. I am happy to let you know what I have learned that aided me in making a particular choice, and how I foresee making that work for my family.. but when someone focuses only on the negative it drives me bonkers. You know? When I say I am going to breastfeed, well the chances are good I am going to breastfeed. We all know that some mamas want to and for whatever reason cannot.. obviously that can happen and obviously it would be disappointing for me if it did. But most cases where the mom wants to nurse, she nurses! So why focus on the small chance she won't be able to, or discourage her before she even tries? I'd welcome a discussion of the resources in our city for nursing moms, or the info I have read about breastfeeding, or the benefits it offers, but why must people always go automatically to- what happens if you can't breastfeed? or, I don't think you realize how difficult and painful that will be. Oi! I just have to take a deep breath and remember that they are really reflecting their own personal issues and the broader issues in our society and that it's not about me or my family.. Plus, when my little one is here, I will obviously strive to be flexible and do what needs to be done, but I hope that I can be a positive voice for more conscious parenting and show those around me that some things can be done differently, and effectively at that.


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

Sure, you don't know exactly how things will go. I'm sure you _do_ know what's important to you and how you will work toward goals. For someone to dismiss you that way is rude. I agree with pps, I do think alot of that can come from their own insecurities, and it doesn't end when you have your baby. After 3 kids and 6 yrs I still sometimes hear a version of that. Sometimes I ignore it. If it deals with something I feel very strong about, I may tell them I don't expect my core values to change and leave it at that.

I also think this is an example of ways mothers sometimes tear each other down instead of supporting each other.

Anyway, don't let them discourage you.


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## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

It's so important to have a sense of humor about life in general. I absolutely hated it when people would say to me "You don't have kids, so you don't understand." BUT it was true. There were so many things I didn't understand, for example, how much love you could have for your own child! No amount of preparation/reading/thinking could have conjured up that kind of love.

It's also like trying to understand marriage before you're married -- there's no way to really understand and predict what your marriage will be like because of a very important x-factor: the other person







. Likewise with parenting, each child is an individual, not a blank slate, and you have to spend so much time getting to know your own child -- what their particular needs, strengths, weaknesses, etc. are.

I think a lot of people say those things because they are truly acknowledging that parenting is a far more intense/challenging/gut-wrenching yet rewarding thing a human can ever undertake. And it's actually true that you don't know what it's like til you're there.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm of two minds about this stuff.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hmk123* 
How do I know I will make baby food? Because I cook EVERYNIGHT and our blender and food processor sits perpetually on the counter for our daily uses. And since we grow organic veggies on our farm, why would I feed my child those organic veggies which Gerber got frow who knows where and squashed up for me?

Well, you might realize that babies don't need baby food







. And decide to skip all that and just share your own food (pre-mastication or not) with your baby when your baby is ready







.

_An old thread I remember getting particularly involved in: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ight=baby+food

(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9646449/)_

That said,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh* 
Oh, sweetie, it doesn't end after the baby is born. Then you get the "wait til they start walking', 'wait til they start talking back', 'wait til they have a sibling', wait 'til, wait 'til, wait 'til..... It never ends. You will eventually fall into line with the mainstream because of something that your kids do. I'm expecting to hear 'wait til you have grandkids' in twenty years.









...so true. And so







.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Even on these boards, I heard it a couple of times

Yes, I see this on the board at times. And it can be annoying. I may have even participated _a couple_ of times in the, "If you only have one, don't judge me because you just don't know what you'd do in my shoes" or the "if your kids don't have special needs, you have no idea."









See, I agree with those folks who are saying that it is true, on some level that you don't know. It's like what everyone has said in terms of, "Before you are a parent, you know how to parent children, and once you are a parent, you learn how to parent your own child." Flexibility is important. To me, now that I am a mom, more than the annoyance of the posts from folks saying, "you have no idea" are the posts when folks come and post how the only way good parents will do something is this one particular way that they have determined is ideal. It implies that others aren't being thoughtful enough when they make different choices. It also implies that *all* kids will be the same. Half the time, the "ideal" proposed is non-applicable to a huge chunk of kids. Just as an example, some parents seem to believe based on their own experiences that it is impossible for a baby to not like being in a sling. They will claim it's a matter of the *type* of sling, or the sling position, or the parent not liking it, or basically anything but that the child simply might not being into it. I have a nephew who really did not like it. Honestly. No matter what the sling was, and what position he was in. And it had nothing to do with his mom, who slung my other nephew. This kid didn't like to be in a sling. That's it.

I too had a *lot* of pre-parenting experience: having younger sibs and cousins (I was second to youngest in my family, so only had one younger brother, but I did have younger "God-siblings" with whom we are very close), babysitting from a young age, eventually working as a nanny, and later working briefly in a preschool. I had a lot of great skills and knowledge, and I was prepared. Like one of the other nanny-before-children posters said, I might have been a little too confident. Because I do find that now, sometimes I lose touch with my skills and knowledge by virtue of the incredibly intense and intimate parenthood experience. And I also find that sometimes life has a plan of its own, despite my hard and fast commitment.

Those who have said that parenthood can be humbling are right.

More importantly, I draw on a lot on my pre-children experience and thinking as a baseline of skills and knowledge, but I am learning now that my most significant teachers are my own children.

All that said, I think the things you mentioned are all the types of things that are among the least likely to change...and why people feel the need to say you won't be able to follow through...who knows







.

Quote:

Most often, what people want when they say things like that is to have their own decisions validated.
Not just their _decisions_, but I think also their life _experiences_ too. Also, as others said, perhaps they worry that your standards are so high that you will end up exhausted or disappointed. Maybe incorrect, but maybe they come from a good, caring place about it.

The advice to just ask them to tell you more is good because if you can stand to sit there and listen, it gives their line of thinking time to run its whole course, and then you've validated them by listening...which _over the longrun_, probably will reduce the number of times they feel the need to come to you and say things like this. I've noticed that people who don't feel heard just start "shouting" eventually, in one way or another.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiwiva* 
Just get used to it. Seriously once the baby is here, if everything isn't perfect they will tell you how much worse it could be or usually that it is/was worse for them. If it is going well, then the "just waits" go on and on.

I agree, and its annoying. But on the other hand, when you are a mama who is really struggling for one reason or another (example...my first child actually sleeps, my second child has an inhuman ability to never sleep, at least not for more than a couple hours at a time...at nearly three, she still just doesn't ever give me a rest), it can feel like you are on a different planet from everyone else. I can see why folks get tempted to tell others how lucky they are because it probably is true to some extent.

One thing I see a lot on MDC, and elsewhere...but especially here, is that anytime things go smoothly with our kids, we tend to give ourselves more credit than we probably deserve. "I just know my child never cries because I breastfeed whenever she is hungry," etc. Then, when things are hard, we tend to assign more blame to ourselves than we deserve. "My child cries all the time. I've tried everything, and I just don't get it. What am I doing wrong?" I swear that in the "ages and stages" section of these boards, a good 70+% of posts fall in one of these categories.

Because we tend to do that, it makes sense that a lot of times we also get defensive. If my baby was crying all the time, and I was trying all the things everybody else is saying ensure their babies never cry, it would make sense that at some point my attitude would become, "Hey you people whose babies never cry: you just have no freakin' idea!"

So if this posts make it sound like I am of two minds, you are right. Because I get why you are annoyed, and yet I also get why people say these annoying things. And I've both been annoyed by people saying it to me, and also have said some of these things myself. Ah, the experience of being a mother! It is so crazy making. It makes us comfortable with shades of grey and paradox like never before.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
See, I agree with those folks who are saying that it is true, on some level that you don't know. It's like what everyone has said in terms of, "Before you are a parent, you know how to parent children, and once you are a parent, you learn how to parent your own child." Flexibility is important.

I agree, it definitely cuts both ways. I mean, for the last three plus years I've been hearing an awful lot of "when I have kids I'll never let them get away with that" from my recently married and recently pregnant SIL wrt to our two boys. It has often taken all of the composure I can muster to not shoot back at her with a wait and see response. Because the truth is that she really doesn't know or appreciate yet what it means to parent the child you have (never mind responding to their behavior in an age appropriate manner,) and I honestly think that having a baby will be something of a rude awakening for her.

I also agree that all those folks who predict that you will abandon your crunchy intentions once the baby is here are being unfairly dismissive of your personal parenting ideology. People often like to think that their way is the only best way to do something, so it can be a little threatening when someone else they encounter wants to do things differently. At the end of the day all you can do is your best, and maybe what some of those people are also trying to tell is don't be too hard on yourself if things don't go exactly the way you envisioned.

Peace!


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## Miss 1928 (Nov 12, 2007)

So, I clicked on this thread thinking that it was the "You can't possibly know...." that I had been hearing. Which is; "You can't possibly know how much you will love your new little child." and "You can't possibly know how much your life will change from the joy that your little child brings you."

Which is true. I had absolutely no idea how much I could love her. A friend of mine said to me while I was preggers; "You think you love your Husband, just you wait 'til your daughter is born." I mean, I knew I would love her to pieces,







but I just didn't know that I could love her more and more each day,







which I didn't think was possible because I thought I already loved her as much as I possibly could the day before.







:
Another friend of mine said about her son; "I love everything about him, even his boogers."







, but true.

I haven't gotten a lot of the negative comments that it seems many of you have though. Either I've been lucky or I'm just forgetful.









I can understand how insulting some of these comments can be though, it's as if they have no faith in your faith in yourself and your capabilities. Perhaps didn't meet up to thier own expectations and so they feel the need to dash your own. Or maybe they honestly feel that they are helping. Boh...









It is interesting though, how I had certain Ideas about being a mother before I actually was one. I did not possibly know how my thoughts of mothering would change once I became one. Bed-sharing had not even crossed my mind, for one, and yet DD has slept with me since she was born. I knew I wanted an unmedicated birth, which I had, but I had a consult with the epiduralogist "just in case". I knew that I wanted to avoid a CS at all costs, which I did. Yay! I knew I wanted to BF, which, 23 months later, I still am, Yay! I wanted to CD, but our living conditions here in Itlay make it too difficult, so we dont. I thought I'd do jared babyfood, and I ended up making most of DD's baby food. I didn't think I'd be happy with my DD in daycare, but I am.

My list goes on, but I gotta get ready for work.

PS
kiwiva, I've become more crunchy too!

AislinCarys, I love Bones and House too.







We used to watch with DD (who also went to bed when we did, late.) til she was about 18 months and I thought she was understanding too much. Also because we started an earlier bedtime for her when she started daycare.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I think it's ridiculous and insulting when someone tries to claim that they know what you'll end up doing better than you yourself do.

I believe it's entirely possible that there are parents of newborns, who are good at cooking and for whom it's a priority, that can successfully roast a chicken the way you describe. You may very well be one of them.









HOWEVER I think only a parent of a small baby can understand just how difficult such a feat can become.







:

I guess I find "*I* don't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll understand" to be inoffensive, whereas "*You* won't/can't do x, when you're a mom you'll see."

It's the whole 'oh, you'll be begging for drugs in labor' thing all over again. Why can't people just say "I thought I wouldn't need drugs, but then I really wanted them" instead? or "Before I became a mom, I thought my kids would never watch TV, but now they do all time because I need to get things done."

I guess it's easier to mock other people's choices than to own up to yours.

True that...but I've been very careful with my phrasing. I don't say "I would NEVER use disposables because they're terrible in landfills!" or even "yes, cloth uses wash water and takes time but it's so worth it," because, well, at this point I cannot say for certain whether it's worth it. But the science of the environmental impact of cloth v. disposable changes not a whit whether I've gestated and birthed anyone, or, for that matter, whether I plan to use cloth or disposable myself. (And children's clothing sizing is completely extraneous to my family planning.)

As for the chicken--again, that "I have had better results with Method A" is a statement of fact. I will likely not roast a better chicken with Method B after I've had children of my own. (Now, will I have the time to roast a chicken at all? Maybe not. But I've done it with a two-year-old.)

I like the analogy to begging for drugs in labor.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

hmk123 said:


> Because hubby and I already do, at least 85% of the time, . . . it will require no change in our lifestyle at all.
> 
> since I already take care of my own needs with cloth it is not a stretch to expand that to my children.
> 
> ...


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

I'm remembering a conversation I had when preg with my first. I was telling someone that I wanted a natural drug free birth. They replied with "Oh, just wait, you'll change your mind. So many women say that and then don't". I said that so many say that and then do have that birth. As it turns it out I didn't give birth to my Dd in the way I wanted. And that casual comment stuck in my head. I felt I failed as it was and that comment just echoed around in my head. Did what she say help me? No. Why the need to tell a woman things may be different in that way? Most are smart enough to figure that out. Saying it to prove a point is rather self serving and rude, imo. Maybe if it was a close friend or family member reminding gently that flexibility is helpful, then it wouldn't be an issue. That is not, however, the impression given by the op.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

i roasted a chicken 2 days ago! if by roasting, you mean throwing a frozen bird into the crockpot with veggies and water and letting it go for 8 hours!









one thing that struck me was that i thought once my first was born, as OPs have said, i'd stop hearing it. but then, it became, "just wait until he turns 2!" or my new favorite: "wait until the second [third, fourth, etc.] is born!" you can't win.


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## kssinca (Dec 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hmk123* 
I hate it when people tell me that I cannot possibly know what I will do when I actually have a baby, about how I will raise them and what I will and will not do.

...Because hubby and I already do, at least 85% of the time, it will require no change in our lifestyle at all...

I get comments about CDing a lot. What people forget about us is that we already wash fil's clothes and sheets almost everyday and they are always "messy". And honestly, some days I feel like taking care of a baby will be far easier than taking care of fil.

My upset comes from feeling like my choices/decisions aren't being supported. And I'm not that that crunchy! For Christmas, I received a ton of disposables, instead of the requested cloth diapers. I want to say, the decisions I am making, I am not making on a whim! But I have no patience at all with this pregnancy so I just say, "uh-huh, ok" to avoid any discussions. Because it's not really a discussion, it's more of why the other person is right and I am wrong, kind of talk.

I can be flexible, I'd like to hear other mom's experiences, crunchy or not. Just please don't dismiss what I would like to do...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i hated that too - i wouldnt know I would breastfeed or I can't say for sure I won't spank my kids... yeah... annoying...


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## Swandira (Jun 26, 2005)

A corollary of "you can't possibly know what you'll do" is "what you're doing now is sooooo easy!" It's also a sort of way people have of asserting that they know better than the people addressed, because their own children are older. I find "Babies are so much easier than teenagers" to be a little off-putting. I don't think teenagers are easy at all! (I host my little sister, a teenager, every summer for a couple of weeks. I don't imagine that's the same as being the parent of a teenager, but I don't think that just because you can go to the grocery store without company it means your life is easy.) However, I think people who feel that one stage of parenting is really harder than another are probably just forgetting what the other was like. Mamas who have both toddlers and teenagers, am I wrong?


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## bscal (Feb 13, 2006)

I must admit. I was very mainstream before having my first child. Let's see I was sure that:

1. I'd never cosleep with my baby (when we got home I cried at the very thought of her not sleeping with us)

2. I'd do CIO when she turned 6 months old (Um, NO WAY! Couldn't do it! Sounded good on paper but the reality of leaving a sweet helpless baby to cry and scream until she fell asleep... horrifying!)

3. I wouldn't be one of those nuts who make their own baby food. Gerber does a fine job with it. (I used Gerber most of the time with first child, never bought baby food for 2nd or 3rd children.)

4. Babywearing is too complicated to get and not for me. (When you have a high-needs baby like my first you change your mind real fast!)

5. I'd use disposables for the convenience. (I started using cd with #3, when #2 was still wearing dipes and the cost for my sensitive skin kids who could only wear Pampers was staggering.)

Those are the only examples I can think of right now. Really though, I changed a LOT over the years. I'm not completely crunchy... but not anywhere near as soggy as I used to be.

What I'm trying to say is, when you have a baby your whole life changes. And that's probably what others mean when they say things like that.

Beth


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think it makes more sense to say "You won't know until YOU have YOUR baby." Because every birth and every baby is unique. Yours may be totally compatible with your plans, or not at all, or (usually) somewhere in between. But it would just be plain silly for me to tell people that, say, breastfeeding is difficult for all mothers, just because it didn't work for me and DS. Or that no one can have a drug-free birth, or for that matter an easy C-section, just because what I had was a vaginal birth with epidural.

With CDs (we use both CDs and disposables), I have found that people usually take back their "it's too hard, I could never do that" statements when I tell them that modern ones have snaps and "velcro" (no one in my acquaintance knows what Aplix is). I think it's really the idea of pins that make people nervous.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
If someone said to me, I plan on using cloth because protecting the environment is really important to me, I'd say good for you, or what a great choice, and I'd support them by buying diapers as a shower gift or whatever. But if they say "I'm using cloth because it's easy, it won't be a change for me" I'm going to think "first time parent, good luck with that".

When my son was an infant, and we were struggling with a lot of medical things that kept us up all night I remember throwing out 3 successive batches of formula because I feel asleep standing up while counting out the scoops. Now making formula is not exactly gourmet cooking. You measure some water, count out about 6 scoops, close the lid and shake. It's significantly easier than cooking rice or dry pasta. And yet, on that particular day it was beyond my capabilities. And while I was still committed to cooking most of my own food when he was that age, my definition of cooking shifted rapidly from "following a recipe to prepare some delicious treat" to "throw a piece of salmon under the broiler, take it out when it's black around the edges, eat it with a banana and a green pepper (eaten whole like an apple so I don't have to wash a knife) and maybe a piece of dry whole grain toast".

ITA. Planning on doing something because of your values can be a wonderful thing. Because it is easy or won't be a change, is, imo, naive. However, this doesn't mean people should shove an "I know better" attitude in your face, or clearly disrespect your opinions by buying you disposables when you said you would use cloth. I thought one of the good traits of parenting was how humbling it can be. If parents are truly humble, they will realize that everyone has different expectations and experiences and that just because XYZ did or did not work for them does not mean they can apply that same experience to another parent or parent to be.

Totally OT:







:














:
Momily, thank you so much for posting this. It totally cracked me up and made my day. I did the exact same thing with my DS. I just could NOT count. Sleep depravation is one of the worst forms of torture, yk? I am sorry you had to go through this, but glad someone can relate and look back on it, not in sorrow or desperation, but with acceptance and a grin. For several years I also went from gourmet to salmon saute and whole pepper on the side. I still haven't "fully recovered" - and that acceptance of a more casual way is a good thing, imo.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I think the things you're talking about doing -- homemade organic babyfood, cloth diapers etc . . . are certainly doable, and worth it, and wonderful things to do, they do represent a change or a stretch. Washing the volume of cloth diapers your child will go through is substantially different from washing a much smaller volume of mama cloth, preparing food when you're too tired to see straight, and distracted by an infant, and can't use any techniques that might splatter because said infant is strapped to your chest, is substantially different from cooking.

This is a good point.

You know, it is so funny because when my ds suddenly arrived in our house (first as a foster placement), he was this little newborn baby. Everyone in our faith community asked what they could do to help. I immediately thought, "food!" and asked them to bring over some food to help us keep nourished through the day (which was really, really good because even without having just gone through childbirth, there were still some days when at the end of the day with ds, I'd realized all I'd had to eat was a granola bar or something). Then they asked what kind of food, and I immediately said: "soup." Soup to me is a total comfort food, and it is something warm...and since we're vegetarians, usually packed with veggies so nutrient dense.

My dw later said, "you know, soup was probably not such a good idea." Then she proceeded to point out that with the babe in a sling, we'd be at risk for dripping hot soup all over him, and it takes a longer time to eat soup than many other types of foods, and...and...the list went on. Now, I have spent a LOT of time with babies, but it had been a while since any of them were quite that little and in-arms ALL the time like that. I just wasn't quite picturing it the way it was really going to be. I even forgot some of this stuff in between #1 and #2.

I still loved every sip of soup over those weeks, but she was right. The soup was harder to manage than the other foods people brought us. You may be smarter than me, and perhaps you wouldn't have asked for soup...but my point is that your picture of what it is going to be like is always going to be incomplete until the baby arrives.

Quote:

If someone said to me, I plan on using cloth because protecting the environment is really important to me, I'd say good for you, or what a great choice, and I'd support them by buying diapers as a shower gift or whatever. But if they say "I'm using cloth because it's easy, it won't be a change for me" I'm going to think "first time parent, good luck with that".
True. When I use cloth pads, I am washing a maximum of 3 pads per day for 5-7 days. They are small and simple to rinse and then throw in with the rest of the wash. There really is no comparison between cloth diapers and cloth pads, except that the nice feel of cloth against my skin in comparison to the disposable pads helps in its own little way to keep me motivated to use cloth with my kids. Kids alone can add loads to your laundry...then mix in cloth diapers, and it is _definitely_ loads more laundry (pun intended







). Which is fine (I mean, we do it), but there are definitely times when we are really exhausted or otherwise finding it very hard to keep up.

By the way, if you have diaper service in your area and can swing it, I would highly recommend it. I used diaper service with ds when he was younger, and let me tell you, I actually have fantasies now of getting diaper service.

Quote:

When my son was an infant, and we were struggling with a lot of medical things that kept us up all night I remember throwing out 3 successive batches of formula because I feel asleep standing up while counting out the scoops. Now making formula is not exactly gourmet cooking. You measure some water, count out about 6 scoops, close the lid and shake. It's significantly easier than cooking rice or dry pasta.
OMG! I'd completely forgotten the extreme nature of mom-to-newborn exhaustion. Yes, yes, I've so been there in almost the exact same scenario! Thanks for a trip down memory lane! Now when I talk about cooking with kids, I am of course talking as the mom of kids who can play by themselves (somewhat) while I try to throw together a meal. This colors my perception. But when they were really tiny still?! OMG! Yes, I fell asleep once doing the dishes. I baked a cake (from a box!!) for my dw's birthday and forgot eggs! Then in a second try, I baked a cake (from a box, same day!!) and accidently doubled the milk. I threw out two cakes that day. Most of the time, I never did make it into the kitchen at all.

LOL Oh, the memories are pouring back! I once fell asleep during a middle-of-the-night feeding and woke up feeding my son's ear.









Quote:

my definition of cooking shifted rapidly from "following a recipe to prepare some delicious treat" to "throw a piece of salmon under the broiler, take it out when it's black around the edges, eat it with a banana and a green pepper (eaten whole like an apple so I don't have to wash a knife) and maybe a piece of dry whole grain toast".
LOL Oh yes, been there too!

Quote:

I completely understand where you're coming from, you're really committed to these ideals and I know from my own experience that that committment is key.
Yes, it is the key. And I still think out of all the things as a parent you say you are going to do, these are probably among those that will be easiest to stick to. At least if you are like me.

For me, my bigger challenges are around things like not throwing the baby out the window when I've been up all night with a fussy one







. Totally kidding of course. But kidding aside, in the scheme of things, a commitment to homeade food for one's baby is probably not the first that will be broken.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kssinca* 
I get comments about CDing a lot. What people forget about us is that we already wash fil's clothes and sheets almost everyday and they are always "messy". And honestly, some days I feel like taking care of a baby will be far easier than taking care of fil.

Probably, but doing both at once?! That's going to be a washing machine on all day long!

Quote:

My upset comes from feeling like my choices/decisions aren't being supported. And I'm not that that crunchy! For Christmas, I received a ton of disposables, instead of the requested cloth diapers.
How terribly annoying. That would get under my skin too. Like I said in my earlier post, I really do think you have every right to be bugged.

Quote:

I can be flexible, I'd like to hear other mom's experiences, crunchy or not. Just please don't dismiss what I would like to do...
I hope nothing I've said has been dismissive. I have a commitment to all the same kinds of things, and have largely stuck with my commitments. And I think those comments *are* annoying and can be very dismissive of your parenting philosophy, so I totally get why you are irritated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swandira* 
A corollary of "you can't possibly know what you'll do" is "what you're doing now is sooooo easy!" It's also a sort of way people have of asserting that they know better than the people addressed, because their own children are older. I find "Babies are so much easier than teenagers" to be a little off-putting. . . . However, I think people who feel that one stage of parenting is really harder than another are probably just forgetting what the other was like. Mamas who have both toddlers and teenagers, am I wrong?

I was a foster mom of teens not that long before my little ones, and yes, I think both present different kinds of hardships. Even after the very real challenges of parenting teens (which I loved), the newborn phase (though I loved it), certainly kicked my butt.

I also think for parents of teens, in the years that have slipped by, the intensity of newborn-phase or toddler-phase memories have faded. So while they remember the challenges and can acknowledge them, in the intensity of their experiences with their teens, they can't quite fully grasp that the two may very well be at the same level just in very different ways.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
With CDs (we use both CDs and disposables), I have found that people usually take back their "it's too hard, I could never do that" statements when I tell them that modern ones have snaps and "velcro" (no one in my acquaintance knows what Aplix is). I think it's really the idea of pins that make people nervous.

This is a good point. A lot of people don't really have a grasp on what cloth diapering entails these days. Many who cloth diapered even twenty years ago also remember leaking diapers. Cloth has come a long way in just a couple of decades! Oh, and don't forget diaper service, which I already plugged







.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I didn't read all the responses, but I have to say... I DID change a lot of my ideas after I had my baby (for the good, I think







). But really- it IS hard to know what parenting will be like. That's not to say people should be saying "Just wait...!", but I remember having a big long argument with my mom because she said laughing "Your life will never be the same! Everything will change!" and I took offense... Just because I had a baby didn't mean EVERYTHING had to change! But ya know? She was right. Everything changed, but in a way that was great and I wouldn't change back for the world. When I humbly told her she was right, but it changed in a good way, she laughed again and said "I know! That's what I was trying to tell you! But to tell you how everything will change, it will be the hardest thing you will ever do but you will not want your old life back isn't something you can really understand before you do it." Right again, mom







.

I think it is also important to be open to changing your mind. I think new, first time moms get locked into this idea of having been so committed to a certain aspect of child-rearing pre-baby that when the baby comes, if it is not working (or not working perfectly) we feel guilty or like a failure when that is not the case.

Again, all this is not to say that people who say "Just wait...!" aren't rude- or wrong. You totally CAN do all those things.

Also, this is a good lesson in IGNORING people as politely as possible. As a parent, you will get a slew of unwanted but well intentioned advice. It is important to learn how to let it go. When people would say to me "Just wait...!" I'd usually say something like "Well, I'm gonna try it... I hope I can do it" and smile







... and change the subject. If they laugh good naturedly in a "uh huh- we'll see!" type way, I'd let them laugh. Who cares?


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## CookAMH (Jun 2, 2008)

My SIL is like that. I figure, I will eventually have more kids than she, and until then, this is how it'll be







. As a pp said, it'll be "wait till you have two...etc". She'll stop at two and we hope to have four....so...


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## caitryn (Aug 18, 2005)

I didn't have to deal too much with the "You won't know until you have kids..." other than one... lady... who would constantly use her kids to get out of having to work. (She was normally found at bars when she had said she was taking her kid to a doctor or something.) "You'll understand when you have kids" was actually her way of saying she was better than me because, at the time, I didn't think I COULD have children. She was, at one point, saying that I would understand how important children are when I said I couldn't cover for her one night while she was wanting to get out of work to go do something with her son or whatever. (As if I don't have things to do too?)

Well, in some ways she was right. Spending time with DS was more important than I had anticipated. It was so important, in fact, that I quit working at that place rather than try to dump my workload off on other people. Go fig.

Essentially, though, I didn't get most of the "you'll do it differently when he comes" stuff because I always opened up a statement with "I want to do x" or "I'm 99% sure I'll do." When asked why I was 100% committed, I would say that there's always the chance that something could come up. After all, it's all well and good to say you won't have any medication during childbirth... until the point where a complication arises. When asked how sure I was that I would breastfeed, I said 99% because I had heard of too many women at that point with supply issues. (One's baby was even allergic to her milk.) Good thing I wasn't 100% since that 1% came up with my son, and I'm now having to supplement.

BTW, I was also 100% against ever co-sleeping. I started co-sleeping while still in the hospital with him. (It was amazing to me when I asked the nurse if it was alright, and she replied, "I don't see why not. Women have been doing it for 1000s of years.)

The worst stuff came after DS was born, though. "You're going to regret doing that..." Like I'm going to regret holding my son or breastfeeding him or co-sleeping.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I baked a cake (from a box!!) for my dw's birthday and forgot eggs! Then in a second try, I baked a cake (from a box, same day!!) and accidently doubled the milk. I threw out two cakes that day. Most of the time, I never did make it into the kitchen at all.

If you ever ruin another cake (assuming you didn't put, like, laundry starch in it): crumble it up, mix it to a moldable consistency with some frosting and/ or booze of some kind (anything cake-y, like rum, bourbon, or sweet liqueur), and shape it into one-inch balls. Freeze on a cookie sheet until firm. Dip in melted chocolate or white chocolate, or I guess you could roll them in something like powdered sugar or coconut or whatever (haven't tried that).

Quote:

LOL Oh, the memories are pouring back! I once fell asleep during a middle-of-the-night feeding and woke up feeding my son's ear.








I woke up trying to put his bottle in his eye one night! He wasn't too happy about that.


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## WeasleyMum (Feb 27, 2007)

Argh, I get this stuff too sometimes, even though I try to keep my plans/ideas to myself as much as possible. There are two different ideas running through my head:

1. Of course, everytbody is right; we can't know until we get there. Duh.

2. BUT, doesn't it make more sense to have a plan, an idea, a value system?

Take labor and birth; since I'm pregnant with # 1, obviously I don't know what labor will feel like. How could I? But does that mean that I shouldn't have a plan, based on my values, of what I WANT to do? It's not likely that someone would get a drug-free, intervention-free birth (in a hospital) without thinking about it ahead of time.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WeasleyMum* 
Argh, I get this stuff too sometimes, even though I try to keep my plans/ideas to myself as much as possible. There are two different ideas running through my head:

1. Of course, everytbody is right; we can't know until we get there. Duh.

2. BUT, doesn't it make more sense to have a plan, an idea, a value system?

Take labor and birth; since I'm pregnant with # 1, obviously I don't know what labor will feel like. How could I? But does that mean that I shouldn't have a plan, based on my values, of what I WANT to do? It's not likely that someone would get a drug-free, intervention-free birth (in a hospital) without thinking about it ahead of time.

Of course it makes sense to have a plans and commitments to certain ideals.

However, don't hold yourself to those ideals, and give yourself the flexibility and space to change courses if things aren't going exactly as planned. I think a lot of mamas experience a ton of angst and guilt when things don't turn out exactly the way that they envisioned, and the point that many of us are trying to make is: you don't have to do that to yourself. Yes, motherhood is amazing, but it's hard enough as it is, so try not to go and set these lofty goals for yourself to the point that you might end up disappointed or feel like a poseur or a failure if things don't go quite exactly as planned.

I don't think it's "duh" for a lot of women, especially those of us that tend to (over)think, (over)plan and (over)control.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WeasleyMum* 
1. Of course, everytbody is right; we can't know until we get there. Duh.

2. BUT, doesn't it make more sense to have a plan, an idea, a value system?

Well put. After all my rambling, you were able to sum up things I was thinking very nicely.


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## Jackies Ladybug (Jun 19, 2008)

i got through almost all the posts, but i have limited time so i'm posting now.

i think the huge problem i have had with people making these types of comments to me is that they are assuming i am making this decision on a whim, like i dont research and work out what will be best for my family. maybe its because they made decisions on a whim, i dont know.
i decided to cloth diaper, exclusively breast feed, co-sleep, babywear, not have any bottles or pacifiers, no plastic toys, not vax and have a natural home birth.
all of these decisions i made with great care knowing they would be best for our family and work well in our situation, but everyone i meet tells me how its all going to crumble one day or that i WILL need to give my baby a pacifier at one point.
they reacted the same way when i was pregnant as they do now once the baby is out. the comments never really stop, and the worst part is, if something DOES change and you want advice from one of those moms who told you your first plan would never work, they give you a HUGE lecture on how they "told you so"!
its a double edged sword. no one wins, i usually just keep to myself about my lifestyle choices and let my happy baby make the first impressions.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I just wonder why people feel the need to ask obvious questions when it comes to this type of thing. Like:

"I plan to breastfeed."
"But what if you can't breastfeed?"
are they expecting "Then I'll do it anyways, dammit!"

or

"I'm planning a homebirth."
"but what if you need a c-section?"
obviously the answer would be "then I'll transfer and have a c-section." are they expecting "That's what butcher knives are for!"?


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
If you ever ruin another cake (assuming you didn't put, like, laundry starch in it): crumble it up, mix it to a moldable consistency with some frosting and/ or booze of some kind (anything cake-y, like rum, bourbon, or sweet liqueur), and shape it into one-inch balls. Freeze on a cookie sheet until firm. Dip in melted chocolate or white chocolate, or I guess you could roll them in something like powdered sugar or coconut or whatever (haven't tried that).

Oooh, I'm gonna go buy cake mix now! lol!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Good point-- the cake doesn't HAVE to be ruined to make cake balls out of it. You can do it with a perfectly good cake too.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I just want to know one thing. How am I supposed to remember to make cake balls when I am so exhausted that I am sitting on the kitchen floor in a flood of tears with the first cake failure LOL







?!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Put the cake failure in the freezer until you calm down. You can thaw it and make cake balls later.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WeasleyMum* 
Argh, I get this stuff too sometimes, even though I try to keep my plans/ideas to myself as much as possible. There are two different ideas running through my head:

1. Of course, everytbody is right; we can't know until we get there. Duh.

2. BUT, doesn't it make more sense to have a plan, an idea, a value system?

Take labor and birth; since I'm pregnant with # 1, obviously I don't know what labor will feel like. How could I? But does that mean that I shouldn't have a plan, based on my values, of what I WANT to do? It's not likely that someone would get a drug-free, intervention-free birth (in a hospital) without thinking about it ahead of time.

kidspiration is right on... In fact, the level of "mama guilt" that can happen is one thing I truly did not expect or even know happened. I think lots of us planned here for a natural, med free birth. And many of us had them. But not everyone. I had 2 c-sections even after planning and doulas and midwives... The though process that starts to leak in is "I read epidurals/c-sections/whatever are terrible. Did I harm my baby? I am a failure already. I should have been stronger/smarter/whatever. I must not be a good mother. I thought I could be "prefect" because I thought I knew just what to do. I am not the mother I thought I would be." So many moms are tearing themselves up on MDC torturing themselves that if their baby ever cries ever they are somehow practicing "cry it out". If they ever loose their temper, they have been a horrible mother and "not GD". Babies cry. Sometimes we all loose our temper- we are human. But often the guilt and self flagilation that comes with all this is from taking their plans as "the one right way" and anything less is unacceptable. Then (as the train of thought goes) if we do them, we ourselves are sub-standard. The truth is- parenting is hard. Real hard. And you love those little munchkins more than you ever could imagine in a way that is totally different than any other person in your life. But kids are resillient. And being able to come to a balance of making plans and accepting when they sometimes go awry is essential to the mental health of all mothers. And it sounds simple and obvious, but so many mothers (myself included) had to learn the hard way- that "perfection" is not possible, that plans can be changed, that the things we thought were so terrible sometimes aren't afterall... And that we can be good mothers and make mistakes, change out minds and all that.

I think we're just trying to tell people out there that we don't need to torture ourselves







. Plans are good. Guilt in not being able to follow all of them through 100% is bad.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

First of all, yes, yes, yes, knowing your values is always a good idea going into a new endeavor, especially parenting.

When I look back on my parenting journey there are lots of things I KNEW I'd do that didn't happen. I knew my baby wouldn't take a pacifier (he had one in his mouth when they put him in my arms at the adoption agency, and it basically didn't come out for 3 years), I knew he'd sleep in a crib (I think he did once, for about 8 nanoseconds), I knew I'd only feed him healthy foods (he had his first Skittles at 18 months -- I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as fruit).

At the same time, my core parenting values -- treating him with respect at all times, parenting without violence, anger or force, listening carefully to what he's trying to communicate from long before he could talk, prioritizing his emotional health etc . . . These things have stayed constant, and I'm pretty proud of how well I've stuck to them. When I did change my mind on parenting practices it was often because I realized that for this particular child in my particular family a different practice actually ended up being a better fit with my value system.

So, while I think if you set your mind on certain parenting "practices" you're likely to fail to some degree, but if you set your mind on using certain values to guide your parenting choices, then I think you'll be successful.

As an example, if you say "I will breastfeed" you might end up being wrong. But if you say "I will always try and make the healthiest choices for my child" you're likely to breastfeed, you'll certainly be motivated to try, and if you end up not doing so it will because for this particular child another choice ended up being more in line with that value.

BTW, since people liked my formula story I thought I should finish it. A few weeks after the incident I told the story to my mom. She looked at me like I was crazy and said "If you put the formula in the jar before the water, and you mismeasure you can dump it back in the can and measure it again."

So, apparently not only can I not count when I'm sleep deprived, I can't think logically either.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I just want to know one thing. How am I supposed to remember to make cake balls when I am so exhausted that I am sitting on the kitchen floor in a flood of tears with the first cake failure LOL







?!

Um... serve that cake up anyway with a big smile! I did almost the same thing (except I didn't trash the cakes). DH had for his birthday a lopsided box cake with way too much uneven frosting and crazy red dye in it and horrible sprinkles on the top to try and liven it up. I had a 3 week old baby at the time and I was maxed out. It was a disaster. We sang Happy Birthday and laughed. My older DS LOVED it with all that frosting and candy sprinkles. Hey- these are the things that make up life. If that stupid cake had been perfect we would never have remembered it. Now we have something to look back on and chuckle about







- how (and why!) we choked down that terrible cake!


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
So, while I think if you set your mind on certain parenting "practices" you're likely to fail to some degree, but if you set your mind on using certain values to guide your parenting choices, then I think you'll be successful.

Well put!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
BTW, since people liked my formula story I thought I should finish it. A few weeks after the incident I told the story to my mom. She looked at me like I was crazy and said "If you put the formula in the jar before the water, and you mismeasure you can dump it back in the can and measure it again."

If you do that, remember to measure the water in a separate container.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
If you do that, remember to measure the water in a separate container.

Well, he's 9 so I'm not making much formula these days.

But yeah, I knew that. However, before I told my story to my mom I told it to my pediatrician who gave me a script for RTF formula from WIC (he was on a crazy expensive medical formula) which solved that particular problem.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

About measuring formula, you could also always use those little formula holder tupperware things. You premeasure the formula, dump into a holder, close the lid, and then when night comes and you get up to make a bottle, you can just open the lid and dump the entire contents into the bottle. (Can you tell that as a foster mom I have spent a lot of time premeasuring formula.)

'Nuff said on Mothering about formula. I'd hate to see the mods have to ask us to delete posts about formula or something.

Edited to add: Actually, truth be told, in the case of the cakes, I didn't end up crying. I did throw them out, but I laughed and moved on. However, when you are that exhausted...you never know.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
About measuring formula, you could also always use those little formula holder tupperware things. You premeasure the formula, dump into a holder, close the lid, and then when night comes and you get up to make a bottle, you can just open the lid and dump the entire contents into the bottle. (Can you tell that as a foster mom I have spent a lot of time premeasuring formula.)

'Nuff said on Mothering about formula. I'd hate to see the mods have to ask us to delete posts about formula or something.

Edited to add: Actually, truth be told, in the case of the cakes, I didn't end up crying. I did throw them out, but I laughed and moved on. However, when you are that exhausted...you never know.

I agree that the formula is getting way off thread, but I'd still be annoyed if the mods closed a thread because an adoptive mom and a foster mom mentioned formula. I actually think it's a good example of being true to your values rather than specific practicies that while I'm a strong believer in breastfeeding and lactivism I'm also confident that my choice to formula feed was absolutely the right choice for my little guy and 100% consistent with my value system.

BTW, those little tupperware things don't really work with the hypoallergenic formula we had because it had to be heated up to get the powder to dissolve -- it was nasty stuff I tell you. Oh yeah, and he's 9 so the formula is a thing of the past.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I agree that the formula is getting way off thread, but I'd still be annoyed if the mods closed a thread because an adoptive mom and a foster mom mentioned formula.

I don't think they'd likely close the thread, but they might pm us to ask to delete. Even in terms of what we could talk about on Foster and Adoptive Parenting, I remember there had to be a whole debate over what exactly would be allowed. What I took from the end result was that it was fine for us to talk formula on that forum, but not elsewhere. I could have misunderstood.

Quote:

BTW, those little tupperware things don't really work with the hypoallergenic formula we had because it had to be heated up to get the powder to dissolve -- it was nasty stuff I tell you. Oh yeah, and he's 9 so the formula is a thing of the past.
Whoah! The hypoallergenic stuff ds was on smelled *awful* but did not disolve!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

The ad links underneath this thread are coming up all cake recipes.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I just wonder why people feel the need to ask obvious questions when it comes to this type of thing. Like:

"I'm planning a homebirth."
"but what if you need a c-section?"
obviously the answer would be "then I'll transfer and have a c-section." are they expecting "That's what butcher knives are for!"?










Actually, this is what my DH tells his coworkers!









Really! When they ask about the dangers and "what if's", he just tells them that he keeps a sharp knife ready just in case he needs to do the c/s. (And he can say it with a straight face so they are unsure if he is serious or not!)

As for the comments, well, naturally, it has been a while since I have had them. I have pretty much covered about any and every situation by now. But I have heard them before, both to me and to others.

And the reality is it is true. You cannot possibly know...whatever until you have been there.

But I don't think it is the comments so much as the way they are presented.

Because, I have been known to tell others (on very rare occasions), "you just don't know until you have seven children under your feet all at once" or something similar, but I have never said it in a condecending manner or a "I am better than you way". When I have used the statement it was during conversations with friends or family and it was in a fun, be flexible idea way. Not in a mean way.

My thoughts have changed much over the years, I KNOW. I have used the statement, "If I only knew then what I know now!" way too often. But we learn, we grow, life throws us curve balls.

It does not hurt to have a plan.

I always said I would have all my children at home and you would not get me into a hospital. Everyone told me the old, "you'll change your mind when you go into labor" or some other "you could not possibly know..." stateme. And I did not go into the hospital, at all, ever, until I had my ninth child. I never knew I would give in to a hospital birth. But I also never knew I would get pre-E.

So, really, you could not possibly know until you have BTDT, but, one day you will know whether or not everything you plan will be how you planned it.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

OK Sierra, I'm obviously tired and need to go to bed, because I'm laughing at the idea that some Mama is going to come hear and read this thread and decide that we've made formula look good. To summarize we've made the following points about formula:

1) The mamas who use it end up so sleep deprived they can't count to 6 or make a box cake (isn't it supposed to help your baby sleep longer? apparently that doesn't work so well).

2) You need special equipment to make it, only the special equipment designed for making it doesn't really work.

3) It smells nasty.

4) It doesn't dissolve, even when you shake it really hard.

5) It costs a fortune.

I think MDC should be lauding us right now for our lactivism!!!!!


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## kittykat2481 (Nov 7, 2008)

I wasn't the least bit crunchy before having DS, and since becoming a mother I have learned so much, and completely changed the way I look at things. I cloth diaper, I prepare all of his foods (fresh, local, organic when available), I'm breastfeeding (13 months and going strong!) I co-sleep (part time now that he jumps out of the bed lol), and the list goes on.

Having a child can only make you MORE aware of how your actions affect the world. Why would you suddenly become LESS crunchy when you become a mother? That makes no sense!

Hang in there mama. Do what you already know is right for your family, and ignore everyone else.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
1) The mamas who use it end up so sleep deprived they can't count to 6 or make a box cake (isn't it supposed to help your baby sleep longer? apparently that doesn't work so well).

Box cake makes your baby sleep longer? I haven't tried that one yet.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Box cake makes your baby sleep longer? I haven't tried that one yet.

You'll have to ask a breastfeeding mama. Those of us who ff are too exhausted to actually make the cake and find out.


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## kssinca (Dec 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I just wonder why people feel the need to ask obvious questions when it comes to this type of thing. Like:

"I plan to breastfeed."
"But what if you can't breastfeed?"
are they expecting "Then I'll do it anyways, dammit!"

or

"I'm planning a homebirth."
"but what if you need a c-section?"
obviously the answer would be "then I'll transfer and have a c-section." are they expecting "That's what butcher knives are for!"?


















: When my family realized that my fil was incontinent and that *we* are the ones who have to clean up the mess, they're like, isn't that gross? What if you get "stuff" on your hands???? I said, well, we DO have gloves and if we were out of them, it DOES wash off. Did they think I licked my fingers clean?????

And my comment about not dismissing my feelings/choices was not directed to anyone here.... just more of a general statement.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I believe it's entirely possible that there are parents of newborns, who are good at cooking and for whom it's a priority, that can successfully roast a chicken the way you describe. You may very well be one of them.









I'm catching up on this thread but just wanted to say that, both to save time and to make sure meat is cooked well on the inside, I often pre-cook it some in the microwave oven (maybe not very NFL) and then continue cooking/roasting in a pot or baking in the oven.
The same with vegetables like aubergine and courgette, I steam it
some and then make an oven dish out of it being sure all is thoroughly cooked in a proper amount of time.

And oh did I have problems cooking every day meals and doing dishes in those first months, after both children! So glad dh was taking over that part or bringing food home from outside at times .


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I just wonder why people feel the need to ask obvious questions when it comes to this type of thing. Like:

"I plan to breastfeed."
"But what if you can't breastfeed?"
are they expecting "Then I'll do it anyways, dammit!"

or

"I'm planning a homebirth."
"but what if you need a c-section?"
obviously the answer would be "then I'll transfer and have a c-section." are they expecting "That's what butcher knives are for!"?










AAAUGH I know!! Lol. I get that with breastfeeding a lot.

Also, my friend came from out of town yesterday, asked me something about my cats, and then she goes, so, what if your kid is allergic to your cats? Like, WHY would you say that to me? Obviously I am committed as a parent to my child's health (and also as a "pet owner," to my pets); obviously I hope it doesn't come to that, and chances are it will not, but IF it does, I will address the situation in one of several obvious ways as any other parent would. Did she expect me to say, well I won't do anything, I don't care if my child suffers?! If one solution doesn't work, then I will try another solution, and I will make it work. I mean there are several obvious solutions, from treating the allergies to re-homing the pets, and I assume most people would at least attempt to make things work in a way that was healthy for everyone before having to re-home a pet, but I can't know how that would turn out unless it happened and would do what I needed to address the situation as it presented itself to me.

So by asking me that question, it was like she knew what the obvious answer would be, in general, knew it would be a difficult situation if it came up, but chose to ask me to predict what I will do in an unlikely situation that is not relevant now anyways- what am I supposed to say to that?? I think because I am a vegan and believe in animal rights, she has this subconscious notion that I am a crazy extremist who would put animals before people or something.. whereas I believe there are usually solutions that can accommodate the rights of both animals and people. But, no, just because I am a vegan does _not_ mean I will ignore and fail to treat any medical concern in my child, related to pets or otherwise..

I think with a lot of NFL/AP/whatever practices, some people actually do expect, somewhere deep in their psyche, that we would attempt a kitchen table cesarean over a hospital birth.. or starve our child if we couldn't breastfeed.. because they are seeing our lifestyles and choices as extreme and differing from the mainstream, rather than seeing the _values_ they tend to be rooted in, which as someone pointed out, are the important thing. If someone is looking at natural birth, breastfeeding, etc. in the context of honoring the body and the child and trying to protect their best interests, it becomes clear that if things do not go as planned, the solution is to come up with a new plan that meets those values and honors your child- but if they are only seeing the specific "strange" practices and taking them at face value, judging them as unfamiliar and extreme, some odd preconceptions tend to come out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momily
So, while I think if you set your mind on certain parenting "practices" you're likely to fail to some degree, but if you set your mind on using certain values to guide your parenting choices, then I think you'll be successful.








:


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I hated this too. It was so annoying. It's like people think that you don't know what you are getting into when you decide to have kids. Well, some of us do! For me, having a baby was exactly what I expected it to be. For me it was mostly having a clean house and getting dressed in the mornings. I was told "you're house wont be so clean when you have children" and "you wont have any time to get your nails done anymore" well, I'll tell you my house is still clean and my nails are still done. Now it's "he's still young, wait until he's older" "wait until you have two" and bla bla bla.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookAMH* 
As a pp said, it'll be "wait till you have two...etc".

Oh god, we went through those comments after our daughter was born and DP's brother and his wife had their 2nd. We had our 2nd, told them (mostly DP's mom) that they were full of it, and I'm 100% certain we'll be saying the same if/when we have a 3rd (they have three now).

Personally, I think it's great to have a positive attitude and not focus on all the "OMG, parenting is soooooo hard" comments that are out there. It's not that hard for everyone, and a lot depends on how you approach things.

IME, washing cloth diapers was NOT hard. Not with a newborn, not with a toddler.

IME, making baby food (either setting aside an hour to make enough to last for weeks or just mushing up what we were having for dinner -- NOT hard.

IME, breastfeeding -- not hard. Actually, super easy because it meant my babe could go *anywhere* with me, fall asleep easily, always have food ready, etc. Same with extended breastfeeding -- both of my kids nursed for three years each, and it was very easy for us and made our lives easier in numerous ways.

Can those things be hard? I guess, depending on the circumstances. But generally, I think the norm is for them to be easy unless a parent is making them hard for herself.


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## LeahC (Sep 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Well, it's true that weird unforeseen circumstances happen, but some things DO go according to plan.


Yep, definitely.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ernalala* 
The same with vegetables like aubergine and courgette,

Translation for Americans: aubergine=eggplant, courgette=small zucchini

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 

Personally, I think it's great to have a positive attitude and not focus on all the "OMG, parenting is soooooo hard" comments that are out there. It's not that hard for everyone, and a lot depends on how you approach things.

Plus it's so, so dependent on very idiosyncratic circumstances. DS is going through an "easy" stage, but he is very big for his age so it still is difficult to parent him sometimes just because he is SO heavy to lift and dress and carry even in an Ergo. If he had exactly the same personality in a smaller body, he would be super-super-easy right now. Likewise his learning to walk was a very difficult stage for us, but that was partly because we were in a horribly busy time at school/ work and any small other pressure just was too much, including dealing with a newly-toddling toddler. Again-- it would be silly for me to predict the same stages as being difficult for a totally different mother, with a totally different baby, with a totally different job for that matter.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama_Gaia* 
I think with a lot of NFL/AP/whatever practices, some people actually do expect, somewhere deep in their psyche, that we would attempt a kitchen table cesarean over a hospital birth.. or starve our child if we couldn't breastfeed.. because they are seeing our lifestyles and choices as extreme and differing from the mainstream, rather than seeing the _values_ they tend to be rooted in, which as someone pointed out, are the important thing. If someone is looking at natural birth, breastfeeding, etc. in the context of honoring the body and the child and trying to protect their best interests, it becomes clear that if things do not go as planned, the solution is to come up with a new plan that meets those values and honors your child- but if they are only seeing the specific "strange" practices and taking them at face value, judging them as unfamiliar and extreme, some odd preconceptions tend to come out.








:

I really agree with this. Of course most people don't make comments because they think you are so odd and different that you will take something to some absurd extreme. But I do this this happens, and perhaps more than I would care to admit. I actually got the "you are going to kill youself/your baby and I will have to bury you" routine from my family, because home birth was just so extreme to them, that they imagined all sorts of extreme scenarios.

Mama_Gaia I am sorry about your friends comment. I would have been tempted to say something like "well, if that happens of course I will put my child up for adoption," but then I am a smart ass.

In general though, I tend to think people who say "just wait until" just are not thinking that this could be offensive, or are feeling slightly guilty for some of their choices and are unconsciously hoping you will make the same choice. Misery loves company, yk? For example, if you have 10 mommas together, and 9 use CIO (or bottles instead of breast or disposables instead of cloth or insert whatever here), and one doesn't, even without saying a word it can becomes a thorn to some of the mommas. If that 10th momma would just fall in line and do X, then everyone else can convince themselves that they really had only that one option. Just the fact that she doesn't, even without words, means there is another, possibly better option, that all those other mommas did not choose. And that makes *some* of them feel bad. And these are the ones that sometimes make this comment.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh* 
Oh, sweetie, it doesn't end after the baby is born. Then you get the "wait til they start walking', 'wait til they start talking back', 'wait til they have a sibling', wait 'til, wait 'til, wait 'til..... It never ends.

I agree. The comments won't end after the baby is born. I'd let it go in one ear and out the other. I think your plans sound wonderful!


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I haven't read the posts but I've told "people" this not as a hey your pregnant or childless now you think you know and you don't but as a response when they tell me ("I would never") that they just know and assume cause I ended up doing things not always as planned its because I'm weak or a hypocriate.









Deanna


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## caro113 (Aug 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SkyMomma* 
Oh, & I've definately nursed while in the bathroom. My own. While peeing. Sometimes neither of us could wait.









I've nursed in a public restroom once .. for same reason lol she was hungry and I just had to pee!! When I came out DP tried to take her (my pants weren't fully help and he was trying to help) until he realized she was still nursing lol I must say though, it was extremely difficult lol

As far as the "you don't know" deal, I got that ALL the time.That and the "that's what they all say" routine. A doc actually told me "That's what they all say. Just wait until you get there" when I told him - yes HIM - I was planning a natural birth. (I was having trouble breathing so DP took me a doc .. uck). He's a man, wtf does he know about the physical aspects of birth? That is where I can safely say "You cannot possibly know". He wasn't even a OB of any sort. Needless to say, I did the natural birth without any drugs of any kind .. so THERE

The best part about all that though, once you start doing everything you said you would and it starts working, you get to say "HA" to them, if only in your head







I love proving them wrong as often as possible.

On a side note, if you find yourself cloth diapering with the washable cloth diapers (there are ones that have inserts that are flushable which we use sometimes, especially when we go away because it's just easier than carting back smelling cloths) and your baby gets a rash, like mine did, you have to wash them with vinegar. If you don't want to put the vinegar in the washing machine - or can't for various reasons - just soak them in water and vinegar after you rinse them out (like before you put them in the laundry) and then wash them regularly to get the yeast out of them. That's what I had to do.

Good Luck with the baby!

OH! If you are trying to state your case for cloth diapers, I wrote an essay on it for my family because they were annoying as shit about it. Actually, they laughed in my face for it ... literally. Anyway, I have it posted on my website if you are looking for some facts and figured.
http://danandcaro.com/journals.asp?m...r=2008&month=6
We also have baby pictures!

Again, Good Luck!! Just try to ignore everyone


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:

The best part about all that though, once you start doing everything you said you would and it starts working, you get to say "HA" to them, if only in your head I love proving them wrong as often as possible.
LOL - I feel the same way! I love that all of the things I couldn't possible do, I did and then some!

In my opinion, some people are planners and others aren't.
Some people hate the idea of planning things - they feel it locks them in.
I, on the other hand, am one of those people who reads boooks, frequents message boards and madly researchs the best method for an awe some birth. I read so much on Natural Parenting by my DS's birth I felt I could write a book to rival Sears, lol!

I had several friends who thought I was crazy for planning a natural birth - they wanted to just go with the flow. I am so grateful I planned for a natural birth - because when the time came I was prepared for what a natural birth would be like and it was awesome.

I had several family members who told me I would give up breastfeeding straight away - and not to be disappointed if I only made it to 6 weeks. I planned to BF for a month and then kept upping my limit - first it was 4 weeks, then 4 mths, then a year ...I BF my DS for 18 mths, and was totally happy with it.

Don't listen to the comments - knowledge is power. Sure, you wont have all of the answers but your certainly able to know the type of parenting you _want_ to acheive!


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## hmk123 (Jan 9, 2009)

WOW! So many responses... I agree with just about everyone...







:

It is easy for me to say now what I will do when it is all just talk. But when push comes to shove what will I do? How could I possibly know? That is very true.









We are pretty heavy duty into environmental stuff, and I do not think I could justify doubling my garbage for years for a baby's poo. That being said, there may well be times when disposibles are just easier, and I do realize the time all those loads of laundry will take! We purchased our washer and dryer with future needs in mind. Diaper services are not out of the question either, especially during the growing season.

Cooking with a baby! I know, so hard. Thankfully my hubby is a good cook, and also vergy good with all kids, so we should be able to manage, even if we only make 3 things a week and eat a lot of leftovers...

I know women who could not breastfeed although it was their fondest wish so I know that things can often go wrong and there is nothing you can do.

As for not knowing your baby and what they need until you get them. I know already the baby I will get. A little person I will love more then I could possibly imagine. Nothing else is as important as that!

So many things will be in flux, so many things will come and go, so many things will happen or not happen. And I can not see the future any more then anyone else. But I have never not planned for an important event, and of course I will not start now.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

Before I was even pregnant, two different people asked me why I babysat in the nursery at church. That made me so sad!








I know! I've been hearing, "Why are you a Girl Scout leader when you don't have a daughter in the troop?" for the past six years! It's because Girl Scouting is fun and girls need a leader and I can help, duh!

Heather, here's my vent about cloth diapering that I finally posted after I had proved all the naysayers wrong.







The "post a link" button isn't working, so I'll have to just paste it:
http://blog.earthlingshandbook.org/2...h-diapers.aspx


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

I always find it frustrating when people who don't have kids tell me what I should/shouldn't be doing with my child.

Or when they're just outright obnoxious about how they plan to parent their (as yet unborn) children. And then they have a baby, and don't do any of the things they were so obnoxious about. I don't care either way how you plan to parent, but understand that you're going to be met with some skepticism until you've parented your own child. It's just the way it is.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 







I know! I've been hearing, "Why are you a Girl Scout leader when you don't have a daughter in the troop?" for the past six years! It's because Girl Scouting is fun and girls need a leader and I can help, duh!


Yes, it's flabbergasting to me that people take the mindset that you don't need to worry about parenting issues until you find out you are pregnant.

I'm a planner and I love children. So, I got interested in AP/NFL while I was in high school and it took off from there. I can't tell you how many people think I'm a "freak" because I already know I want to breastfeed and have a homebirth and use cloth diapers. True, some things may not work out but I feel better prepared for whatever may come having done some research, listened to other experiences, and thought about what speaks to me intuitively.

How is planning and deciding how you want to parent before you have children a BAD thing??!! I definitely don't think it is for everyone to plan ahead nor do I think that there can't be good outcomes without pre-planning. But, I can't help but think that the world would be a better place, if more people put some forethought into parenting.

Welcome to MDC, hmk123! I think you will find everyone here is very supportive and accepting--even to us without children yet







There's even a tribe of us in FYT!

Kylix


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Being 34 weeks along, I can totally relate. I get told this by friends and family-including ones who just have only had their babies 4 weeks...this includes birthing. The thing is most of them either did not adopt a natural lifestyle before their kids or they didn't put the time into researching it.

It really used to hurt my feelings (and sometimes still does)-especially when I've invested so much time in learning different parenting methods so I can be a little prepared when she gets here. I've been learning about and preparing for this for nearly 3 years (had 2 m/cs over that time) so it's not like I just suddenly got pregnant and suddenly think I'm an expert at having babies.

I anticipate it will be very hard and that I will make unforeseeable mistakes. I also anticipate that some of my ideals may not totally work out for me. However, I believe a lot of the things I've investigated (CDing, BFing, birthing, etc...) can work out. The only thing we can do is to enjoy proving these nay-sayers wrong by setting example once our daughter's born.









For now, I put my foot down and tell folks it's a closed subject when they are rude. I try not to volunteer too much info either unless I know someone will either be supportive or at least open-minded about it (they don't have to agree with me-just not talk to me like I'm an idiot).

I don't get in others' business to tell them how they should raise their children...nor do I make crazy predictions of how their parenting styles "won't work out" for them. I think I deserve the same respect in return.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hmk123* 
I hate it when people tell me that I cannot possibly know what I will do when I actually have a baby, about how I will raise them and what I will and will not do.

"You cannot possibly know until you actually have them. Then you will see and change your mind." My sister is particualrly annoying on this subject.

That's incredibly frustrating, and I agree with the others who have said it's because that person couldn't get something to work, or didn't really care about that particular thing, that she thinks it can't work for anyone.Clearly many mothers can and do breastfeed. Why wouldn't you be one of them? And if it doesn't work or you change your mind or whatever, that doesn't mean you are doomed from the start.

There are a lot of things I see other parents doing, and I wonder how in the heck they accomplish it, but that doesn't mean I think they can't. She isn't you, so she has no idea of what you can and cannot do. I remember when I was pregnant with my first and I had these ideas, and my sister would get almost outraged with me. I remember talking with her about my birth plan ideas, because I wanted her input, and when I said that I didn't want an episiotomy, she was all, "You *have* to have an episiotomy, they don't give you a choice, they don't even ask!" When I said that was the situation I was trying to avoid and that's why I was talking to her, she was just kind of doing the rueful laugh "you'll see!" kind of thing.

And then when you do successfully do some of the things you wanted to do, the attitude after the fact is not usually, "Wow, I was wrong." It ends up being more "Oh sure, you could do X because you didn't do Y. Well, I don't want to be like that anyway, I think that's weird." She seemed really taken aback when I had a homebirth because she wouldn't want a homebirth. It finally came out one day, and she liked going to the hospital, it was the only way to get away. And I told her I completely understood the value that she put on it and I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, but that different people want different things. She seemed better after that.


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## hmk123 (Jan 9, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
I always find it frustrating when people who don't have kids tell me what I should/shouldn't be doing with my child.

Or when they're just outright obnoxious about how they plan to parent their (as yet unborn) children. And then they have a baby, and don't do any of the things they were so obnoxious about. I don't care either way how you plan to parent, but understand that you're going to be met with some skepticism until you've parented your own child. It's just the way it is.

I do hope I am not obnoxious!







And I do not to have discussions with anyone about how I *HOPE* to raise my kids, unless I meet people who are doing something I want to do then I will pick their brain and tell them (honestly) when I am impressed with their children or what they are doing.

My sister and her family were with us for 10 days over the holidays and a few times kid stuff just came up. She is my sister so I felt OK telling her what I hoped to be able to do, in no way to put her down or judge her actions, her daughers are amazing kids and my sister is a huge "mama bear" and I could not do what she did and raise infants and toddlers 400 miles away from family when my husband was in a tank in the desert. She knows how amazing I think she is, we have talked about that often, I don't think she feels I have judged her parenting in any negative way.

But my situation is very diffrent. My kids will grow up on an organic farm. Her kids are growing up on a miltary base.

Everyone's situation is diffrent, I just find it strange, and other women have told me, that they had similar receptions about their comments, even after they have kids. A lot of my intial contact with this attitude came when we lost a 12 week pregancy last year, being the research junky I am I was 6 weeks into heavy research when I ended up in the ER with a rupturing ectopic. (I know to "mommies" that probably seems to early to have bonded, but I still felt like I lost my first baby.)

Even comments like "I'd like to try..." (which is how I phrase things whenever I talk to someone about children) seem to make some women think you are judging them if they didn't do "x." It is such a slippery slope!

I understand the skeptisim, but that being said, no one deserves hostility for a casual comment...


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

Hmmm... I only read the first page or so yet & it keeps getting longer too... But when I saw the title, it *didn't* make me think of people having to change their plans regarding parenting after they have personal experience with their own actual children.

However I do *totally* agree that one "couldn't possibly understand" what it's like to be a parent until becoming one. For me, the birth of my daughter (my first child) was the most transformative moment of my life, I literally became a different person, able to understand (lots...yk) at the moment my daughter left my body and was a separate being from me.

Really I didn't have much in the way of a definite plan regarding details for feeding, type of clothing, diapering, parenting philosophies & strategies, or any of that.

No detailed plan, just the outline of a few simple principles in mind, to at least try - (1) to apply the "golden rule" in my relationships with my children. (2) to keep the focus of our relationship(s) on mutual kindness, consideration and compassion, & unconditional love - and to refrain from using force, violence, or other punitive actions to control their behavior (NOT saying I don't teach them what I feel are the boundaries of acceptable behavior - just that I sort of jolly them into it rather than making them do it (whatever it is). and (3) actually this is #1 but whatever *always* express love to my children in any way that I could. The first words I said to each of my 3 newborns were "I love you" and they have been told and shown that ever since.

I've certainly gotten frustrated with them, maybe I've even thrown some empty threats around their direction once or twice (humorously outlandish threats work best, imo, b/c laughter breaks up conflict so nicely).

At the time I started using the internet at home my 2 were no longer babies, dd was maybe 6 and ds 3. Then I got pg again, was "diagnosed" high risk and stuck on bedrest, so I started reading about it online and realized that other people (outside my small pocket of at least some like minds) do parent similarly to me and that there was a name for it and books about it, well what do you know!

Ooops - bedtime! (Past it actually.) Night night!

Disclaimer - I just want to say I realize most people here agree with me, not that I think I'm educating anyone on how to be w/their babes!


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ombra*luna* 
Hmmm... I only read the first page or so yet & it keeps getting longer too... But when I saw the title, it *didn't* make me think of people having to change their plans regarding parenting after they have personal experience with their own actual children.

However I do *totally* agree that one "couldn't possibly understand" what it's like to be a parent until becoming one. For me, the birth of my daughter (my first child) was the most transformative moment of my life, I literally became a different person, able to understand (lots...yk) at the moment my daughter left my body and was a separate being from me.

That's where it gets tricky because while "you" didn't understand what it was going to be like does not mean that others don't. Some people really do know what it is going to be like.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Ombra*luna wrote:

Quote:

However I do totally agree that one "couldn't possibly understand" what it's like to be a parent until becoming one. For me, the birth of my daughter (my first child) was the most transformative moment of my life, I literally became a different person, able to understand (lots...yk) at the moment my daughter left my body and was a separate being from me.
Hey, I don't mean to discount your experience, but it really isn't like that for everybody. I had a lot of people tell me that I and my life would change utterly with motherhood, and it just hasn't been true. Of course I've had some personal growth from the new experiences, but it hasn't been an overwhelming transformation at all. The new discoveries have felt like opening up parts of myself that I always felt pretty sure were there. Basically, I'm still the same person I've been growing to be all along.


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## caitryn (Aug 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hmk123* 
A lot of my intial contact with this attitude came when we lost a 12 week pregancy last year, being the research junky I am I was 6 weeks into heavy research when I ended up in the ER with a rupturing ectopic. (I know to "mommies" that probably seems to early to have bonded, but I still felt like I lost my first baby.)

That's something I can't comprehend, the "to early to have bonded" idea. The moment I saw the test was positive, I was in love with my DS. (I also had a feeling quite early on that he would be a boy, too.) Of course, my older half-sister refused to bond with her first born until she was 6 months along because most of the first pregnancies on her mother's side of the family have been miscarriages. She didn't want to get too attached before knowing she was going to be able to keep the baby.

Different circumstances call for different reactions. Still, if anyone had tried to tell me I couldn't have been bonded or loved my baby at less than 12 weeks, I would have told them they were full of it... and wouldn't have felt bad about the meanness in my voice either.


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