# Do you tell your children "good job"?



## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

I am so shocked that this is now a 'bad' thing to do among crunchy moms. How many of you tell your children "good job"?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I voted, Yes, and not going to stop.

But the truth is, I am well aware of the reasons not to say it. I just don't think that I say it "that way...". I don't say it to manipulate her--to make her more likely to repeat something I want her to do. And I don't say it exclusively--I say lots of other more "pc" things. But sometimes, I see her do something, and I am bursting with pride, and out it comes







. It just feels natural to shout "Good job!" the first time she does a perfect cartwheel, kwim? I mean, she is already *super* proud of herself, so I am not trying to "make" her proud....I am just celebrating with her!

So, yes, I understand the reasons not to say it. But I feel that the *intentions* behind the concept are more damaging than the individual words.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*

So, yes, I understand the reasons not to say it. But I feel that the *intentions* behind the concept are more damaging than the individual words.


Very well said.

I say "good job" and I also use a







and sometimes a


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes, I think it can be misused, just like any other tool is a "discipline toolbox" so to speak. I try very hard not to use it reflexifly, insincerely or just for "something to say". I use it to truly mean "You did a good job" when it is truly deserved. I use other phrases too -- I try very hard to make what I say appropriate to the occassion. But to automatically exclude what, to me, is a natural phrase seems silly and over-analyzing things. Besides, if this is the "worst" thing that I, or any other parent does, we should all find other things to worry about.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

We "cheerlead" each other a lot in my family. I tell dp "good job" alot and love when she says it to me. Especially when we're playing together as a family, when someone get a goal, there's a lot of cheering and good jobs all around.

We tend to say "I really appreciate that." or "Thank you so much" or "Wow, I really like that" to each other in the more day to day things.

I said "good job" to another kid we were playing with during play one day and the other kid's mom flinched.

I've thought about it, and I like it in that context, so I'm keeping it. It's not a verbal "reward" for "behaving" or "achieving" though. I can see avoiding using the phrase that way.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

yes and not going to stop.

as pp said it is a tool that can be used well or poorly. i know i am kind of a praise junkie and i don't like that about myself. i don't want to re-create that in ds. but i don't think depriving him of praise is going to help. what i am trying to do is be very aware of and specific in my praise. so rather than "good job," i try to say "that was very helpful" or "you are so strong" or something that is specific to what he just did. but i don't always succeed in that, and i think that's fine.

he is a little toddler learning something new each day. he obviously takes such pride in every accomplishment, whether it's throwing a ball or finding his favorite book or dropping my toothbrush in the toilet (that one does NOT get a "good job"). why shouldn't i acknowledge and share his pride in those accomplishments?

i think these "experts" just sit around thinking up new things for us to worry about.


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## rgarlough (Jul 18, 2002)

I don't use 'good job' on its own but I do commend Mason when he does something I appreciate and when I am trying to reinforce positive behavior. More likely, I tell him "Oh Mason, mommy sure appreciates it when you XXX." Or "Wow, you must be proud of yourself, look at how good of a job you did on XXX." I always try to tell him what exactly I'm proud of.

Dh on the other hand, just says, "Good Boy!" "Good job!" or nothing at all... I guess something is better than nothing for him... But he's not really as verbal as I am anyway.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rgarlough*
"Good Boy!" "Good job!" or nothing at all... I guess something is better than nothing for him... But he's not really as verbal as I am anyway.

I try to advoid labels like "good girl" so I really do try to watch what I say. Like another momma said. If this is the worce thing that comes out of my mouth I think i am doing pretty darm good









My dh is bad at lables. I have even herd him say "bad girl"







:


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## inthesnow (Dec 8, 2004)

I say it as little as possible. I do encourage my kids, and I comment on their progress, their achievements, etc. BUT I feel that when I immediately say "Good Job!" after they go down the fire pole at the playground or after they finish a painting...I am interrupting THEIR moment to relish. I have seen this happen with us many times...say my dd2 is building a block tower and I say "great job!"...she immediately looks up and stops what she is doing. I have broken her concentration and her pleasure in the moment. Now she is more focused on MY opinion of the block tower.

However, if one of my kids specifically asks me about a drawing, cartwheel, making of their bed, etc.....of course I will say positive things about their accomplishment.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I voted no, but I do actually say "good job" (or something equivalent) on occasion. I don't think it's such a bad thing that it must be absolutely avoided at all times. But after reading Punished by Rewards and thinking about the whole issue, I find that I do agree with the idea that praise can be a problem.

And I would just like to point out that, IMO, if you think the problem with "Good job!" is that it's not specific enough, or that it's said automatically and insincerely, or that it's the kind of phrase you'd use with a dog, you're missing the point.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
I voted no, but I do actually say "good job" (or something equivalent) on occasion. I don't think it's such a bad thing that it must be absolutely avoided at all times. But after reading Punished by Rewards and thinking about the whole issue, I find that I do agree with the idea that praise can be a problem.

Can I ask you, or anyone to summarize the problem? If you don't mind. I guess I don't see how praise can be a problem. I use it unabashedly and rampantly, it's never occurred to me not to. I say things like, "That was great how you helped me in the grocery store." "Thank you for using your nice manners while were at Grandpa's, that made it so pleasant." "I'm really proud of how you remembered to put your dirty clothes in the hamper." "Good job being so gentle with Sheriff (our dog)," etc. All this in addition to "I like that picture you drew with chalk." "That's a great tower." "You sang Baby Beluga so well." I'm very genuine, I really do feel like that, of course, I'm alway bursting w/pride over my little noodle









So am I being manipulative?


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Can I ask you, or anyone to summarize the problem?

I don't know if I can really articulate this well, but I'll give it a try. I just finished reading Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting, which provides lots of reasons (and scientific studies to back up those reasons) not to say "good job." I am sitting under a sleeping baby now or I would go get the book and enumerate the reasons he gives, but since I am stuck here, I'll just try to recall... (PPs said some of these already) (1) even if genuine, praise reduces a kid's inherent motivation to do a task, turning kids' attention from the natural satisfaction toward the parents' judgment. The activity becomes a vehicle to get praise and the activity feels like a means to an end (that being praise) rather than an end in itself. The activity seems like unpleasant work because getting through it warranted praise afterward. (2) it casts the parent as a superior being, in a position to judge the kid's activities and make rulings about their worth (3) it can be used as a "carrot" or manipulative device where parents control kids' actions via praise. Parents' control and manipulation of kids leads to a host of issues... resentment, inability to make good, independent decisions, less confidence, being a "yes-man", and others I can't remember now. I am sure there are other reasons listed in the book, but these are the ones that stuck in my mind.

BTW, I voted yes but trying to stop. I agree with the PP who said that "good job" seems to interrupt dc's own joy and preempts it with mine.


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## MamaFae (Sep 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Can I ask you, or anyone to summarize the problem? If you don't mind. I guess I don't see how praise can be a problem.

I am in the same boat here. I can understand how saying "good boy" can be a problem since it puts the focus on the person not the behavior. But I don't see how children can know what behaviors are not appropriate and what are (i.e. grabing a toy vs. asking for it) if we as parents don't reinforce the right ones and point out that the other behavior is not right.

An example of what I do would be if DS#1 grabs a toy from DS#2 I would say to him "We don't take toys from each other, please use your words and ask for it." Conversly if I see/hear him ask for the toy and wait for it to be given to him I would say "Great job using your words and asking for the toy!"

Maybe I should just read this book everyone is talking about and see if I get where they are coming from.

Blessings,
N~


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I think Chunklin'sMommy did a good job







of describing some of the problems with praise. This article is also pretty good. I found Alfie Kohn's _Punished by Rewards_ pretty convincing, and lots of people here are saying good things about his new book, _Unconditional Parenting._


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## mar4JC (Sep 27, 2004)

I said "yes and I'll continue", but I think the poll should have had a:
yes, but I use it sparingly.

I say Good Job when my son finishes something we've been working on together, or when I've been encouraging him to finish, like climbing the stairs. But I don't say "good job" for everything he does. I agree with PP that said it takes away from the natural joy of discovery and instead directs the child to seek parental approval for every little thing they do.

I think praise is good, but it can be overused. If you say, "good job" because your kid wakes up in the morning, for instance. The praise becomes meaningless. When something tough has been mastered, then, yes, "good job!".


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## CountryMom2e (Apr 1, 2005)

I say it but I specify what I liked - that he finally figured out on his own how to put the blocks a certain way, or that he was gentle with the dog, or that he listened to me when I asked him to do something.

I think like anything you can go overboard. I don't think you should avoid praising your kids because someone published a book. But I do think you should do whatever you do in a genuine and honest manner.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I said, "yes...but trying to stop". I only voted that because it sometimes feels like a quick cop-out to say "good job". If I didn't stop myself I would say it all the time without elaborating on wonderful I think my little guy is.







I don't really buy the whole not praising your children thing, at least not to the full extent. I do think you should allow your children to feel the joy of their own accomplishments, but I also think it is okay to tell them how proud you are of them...even though I feel proud of him when I he just walks by me, toddling his little butt with a big smile on his face.







I just love him and I can't help it if it comes out all the time.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

There was no option for saying it rarely, so I abstained from the vote.









I'm also reading Kohn's book (in a word, _excellent_). One of the many things he talks about that really hit home for me was that while the idea that our intentions are that of the good (meaning, we aren't saying GOOD JOB to manipulate or reinforce certain behaviors, we're saying it because we really can see that they're doing a good job and we want to let them know we care, etc.) is really here nor there *IF* our good intention is not experienced by our children.

Quote:

How we feel about our kids isn't as important as how they experience those feelings and how they regard the way we treat them. - Alfie Kohn
He points out that regardless of our intention, we need to be aware that our approval can be a powerful force in our children's lives, not perhaps, always a good one. In this case, he suggests that we ought to be thinking of ways of nurturing "self-approval" in our children. Self-approval is the key to becoming an independent thinker (keeping both the short and long term goals for our children in mind). That is to say, not relying upon the approval of others to prove our own worth.

I remember back in grade school, having a moment where I really impressed a beloved teacher. I was not one of those students who did this often, so it was a big deal for me. It did indeed feel intoxicatingly good to be acknowledged, and of course in front of the class, even better. However, at that exact moment, my relationship with what we were studying completely changed course. It was no longer about truly enjoying what I was learning about. It quickly became about what I could do to impress her again. I wasn't so much proud of myself for taking a true interest and doing something well, I was proud of myself for doing well enough that someone influential happened to notice. A seemingly fine line perhaps, but a HUGE distinction to be made there for sure.

I know that many see praise as a way of encouraging kids. I know I have. I tend to keep my praise/encouragement more detailed oriented and focus more on DS's feeling than my own: "Yesterday, you drew a head. Today you drew a whole person with arms, legs, feet and toes!" My intention is quite pointed here. It is. I want DS to see that HE is capable of doing and moreover, I don't particularly want him to care what I think about it, but to examine how HE feels about it. When DS draws something he isn't happy with, "This one isn't very good is it?" I tend to reply: "Hm, what is it you don't like about it?" rather than, "I think it's grand!" If I were to just say the latter there, he doesn't have basis for trusting what HE feels, and my "evaluation" becomes the bottom line. Just as it does when I shout out GOOD JOB. Moreover, my evaluation has the potential to become something more than just praise, but a *reward* of praise and because I'm not a huge advocate of parenting with rewards, I have to take that into account as well.

Quote:

Why do we feel the need to keep evaluating our children's actions, turning them into "jobs" that may, if they're lucky, be deemed "good"? From this perspective, it becomes clear that what we really ought to be looking for is a way of being positive that isn't couched in a judgement.

The happy news is that it's not necessary to evaluate kids in order to encourage them. The popularity of praise rests partly on the failure to distinguish between those two ideas. Just paying attention to what kids are doing and showing interest in their activities is a form of encouragement. In fact, it's more important than what we say immediately after kids do something marvelous. _When unconditional love and genuine enthusiasm are always present, "Good job!" isn't necessary; when they're absent, "Good job!" won't help._ - Alfie Kohn
In that, one of the ways I always encourage DS is to simply ask him about what he's doing: "Tell me about what you're drawing there?" "Are you a T-rex today, or an Allasaurus?" "And how do I tell the difference between the two again?" Indeed, I've learned A LOT about dinosaurs this past year... I never knew how interesting they were!









Sorry, for the long LONG ramble. This is definitely an issue near and dear to me. While I've been "praising" DS along these lines since the beginning, Kohn's book was key in helpin me articulate just why GOOD JOB didn't set well with me.

The best,
Em


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

For what it's worth - I'm trying to replace that sentiment with "You must be so proud," for all of the reasons already listed. I like Alfie Kohn a lot, but I'm reading Jesper Juul - You Competent Child right now.

DH and I can be devastated at work when we are told our performance is poor, even if we have other outward signs of success. I'm also working on my own external need for validation and trying to get in-touch with the internal.

But I hardly qualify as a "crunchy mom," ha ha.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I say it, but not all the time.

I find myself saying things more like "Hey! You climbed all the way to the top of the monkey bars!" and leaving off the "Awesome!" or "Good job!" at the end. So I acknowledge his accomplishment, and share his enthusiasm, without making value judgements on it. But there is definitely a time and a place for praise. My problem is when parents praise every little thing, and "good job" becomes this almost meaningless, knee jerk phrase they use all the time, for everything.

The reason I personally don't like to use praise too much is because IMO it shifts the focus from the child's own sense of accomplishment to *your* approval of the child's efforts. I like to talk about the accomplishment instead of expressing my own opinion of it. Not that I remain totally neutral and impartial, I usually have an admiring tone of voice or whatever, but I'll say something like "Your drawing is really colorful," or "That looks just like a strawberry," instead of "I really like your strawberry", etc.

However, if DS does somethhing that I am just bursting with pride over, I let him know it, lol. Parental approval is a good thing. But I want him to also be able to get those good feelings from his own sense of self evaluation, and not have to rely on me to validate everything for him.

ETA - OK, that's what I get for just skimming before I reply. So to sum up - ditto Embee's post.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I voted "yes...and I'm trying to stop". Because I feel I use it too much. I use it too quickly, without thinking of other things I could say that are more constructive. Because it became my substitute for "good girl" and so is just another knee-jerk response. ITA with the theories of Kohn and others. No, I don't think you are ruining your child if you say "good job" to them. But for me I think I use it too often, and when I could use better words to help instill self-approval into my child. It's a bad habit, is what it comes down to!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

OK, here's one of those things that I don't get with the "no praise" idea. We want children to believe in themselves and we want them to trust their own feelings, right? That's why we don't, for example, tell them "You can't be full yet, eat the rest of your dinner". So, if they are proud of what they've done, and we give them a neutral response or observation, then aren't they going to think "Hey, I thought that was really good but Mom didn't seem to think so. Maybe I was wrong."? Don't we want to validate feelings of joy and pride as well as others? Shouldn't we want to share in their celebration? How could adding our own feelings to their's be a bad thing?


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Nope. I never do.

I have many alternatives that are far more suitable for my son.









A good source on why I chose not to bother with "good job"

I rarely use bad and good to refer to something my son does. I feel like I am judging him. And I would rather not judge my son so early on in his childhood.

Let me clarify. I do not deprive my son of praise or acknowledging his pride. I merely use other words.

When he picks up his toys, I do not say "Good job!" I say "Thanks so much for helping me pick up the toys. You put them all away." or "I could not have picked up all those toys without you. Thanks for letting me help you."

Or instead of saying "Good job!" when he kicks the ball, I say "Wow, look how far/high to kicked the ball. Look at it go!"

Or when he shares his toys without prompting I do not say "Good job!" I say "Thank you for sharing your toys with others. That was so kind." or "I am pleased you shared your toys with _________."

I give him praise and attention, but without using the words "Good job!"

I make observations and state facts. I do not use a vague statement like "good job!" I like to use my words







and explain why he did a good job. And observations surrounding it.

btw, I suck coming up with the on the spot, but you get the idea


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

An excellent thread on alternatives to good job








worth reading


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
OK, here's one of those things that I don't get with the "no praise" idea. We want children to believe in themselves and we want them to trust their own feelings, right? That's why we don't, for example, tell them "You can't be full yet, eat the rest of your dinner". So, if they are proud of what they've done, and we give them a neutral response or observation, then aren't they going to think "Hey, I thought that was really good but Mom didn't seem to think so. Maybe I was wrong."? Don't we want to validate feelings of joy and pride as well as others? Shouldn't we want to share in their celebration? How could adding our own feelings to their's be a bad thing?

I don't think this kind of praise is what most of us are trying to avoid. If my daughter is happy about something she's done, I feel fine about agreeing with her that it was cool.

But, you know, maybe "praise" isn't really even the right word for this kind of response, at least if I do it in the way that feels "right" to me. I could say, "Yes, you did that very well, and I'm so proud of you!" (which sounds a bit judgmental, and implies that I would be less proud if she hadn't done it successfully), or I could just give a big smile and say, "Yep, you did it!" or "You look proud of yourself!" (which seems to me more like sharing in her experience than praising.)


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
OK, here's one of those things that I don't get with the "no praise" idea. We want children to believe in themselves and we want them to trust their own feelings, right? That's why we don't, for example, tell them "You can't be full yet, eat the rest of your dinner". So, if they are proud of what they've done, and we give them a neutral response or observation, then aren't they going to think "Hey, I thought that was really good but Mom didn't seem to think so. Maybe I was wrong."?

It's not that I am anti-praise. I don't stand there stony faced and give DS no reaction when he is clearly pleased with something he has done, or when he has done a thing well. (Can you imagine? LOL) I agree with Daffodil that maybe "praise" is the wrong word to use, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Don't we want to validate feelings of joy and pride as well as others? Shouldn't we want to share in their celebration? How could adding our own feelings to their's be a bad thing?

Yes, yes, and, it doesn't have to be.







There is a difference between sharing in DS's own sense of joy and accomplishment, and creating those emotions for him. I have seen some parents go crazy with delight when their child does something like climb up the slide, while the *child* actually seems relatively neutral about it. Some parents are so concerned about building their children's self-esteem that they go overboard and praise every little thing their kid does, which either makes the child think they can do no wrong or makes them dependent upon other people's evaluation of their accomplishments.

I don't think we should go to the opposite extreme, and never make a value judgement about anything our kids do, but I do try to keep it to a minimum, and follow my child's lead, respond to his cues about how he himself is feeling about what he has done or not done, yk? I say things the same way Meco does, which I feel is supportive and encouraging without being praise-heavy.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I tell them I think they have done a good job when I think they've done a good job.







I also tell them I appreciate their efforts/hard work/lending a hand and think it's great when they try their best etc.


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

I voted no.

I totally seek approval from others and it sucks. Not to throw my mom under the bus, but she has an opinion about *everything* I do. Still.









I think I read it first here, but since joining MDC I read "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" which makes very good points about praise. Now, rather than making any type of judgment, I describe what I see.

"What a tall tower you built! It's almost as high as the top of your head."

"You used soft gentle hands on the kitty, and he stayed to let you pet him"

"You put all your books away on the shelf. Now you can find them easily when you want them."


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I'm sure i have without thinking, but I am more about commenting on specifics in the most honest way I can. "Thanks for helping me unload the gorceries. It goes so fast when a couple of people do it". and 'Wow, you're a bike-riding girl!" or "I can't believe you finished that so fast!" And "I saw the happy look on your brother's face when you were playing catch with him. I so enjoyed watching you guys play together". Other things, 'These pancakes you made are delicious". "I love the shading on that watercolor. What made you decide to do it that way? " and "Mmmmm. Your rainbow drawing makes me think about warm summer afternoons". And about 5 minutes ago i said to my 12 yr old, "Thank you so much for bringing the seedlings in while I was out. I was worried it would get too cold for them".


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## noeyjeanne (Apr 6, 2005)

I Voted yes and will continue. I say other things,too. I havn't read too much on why we shouldn't praise our children, but I f she does something cool and looks at me for a response, "good job, calista!!!!!!!!!" usuely (sp) comes out. But I really mean it and a big hug and kiss quickly follows. Is that wrong? Maybe I should read up.?


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I do, and I will continue to praise my child. I really think it is an argument of symantics. Is "I really admired the way you were sharing today" different than " great sharing today"? I think it is total crazy talk to question ourselves praising our children. Now if you were like "good job kicking the dog!" I could see the problem. There are a lot of scary things going on in the world that need changing; praising our kids isn't one of em.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritabeth*
I really think it is an argument of symantics. Is "I really admired the way you were sharing today" different than " great sharing today"?

No, those are pretty much exactly the same thing. I think what people are talking about is not making those kinds of observations at all. So, one could say something like "Did you have fun playing with Susie today? It seemed to go really well." IMO this opens the door to a dialogue about what the child did/did not like about the playdate with Susie, how sharing makes everyone have more fun together, etc.

BUT, having said that, I myself have recently "praised" DS for how well he got along with the other kids at recent playdates. This is because we have been having trouble in this area for a while. Lately he has been doing really good with asking for turns instead of grabbing, etc. and I want him to know I have noticed it. Again, it's not about not ever praising at all, it's more about limiting it and using other ways to foster the child's own sense of self-worth and pride in themselves.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

YES and i'm not going to stop! but fwiw i make sure my praise is meaningful ~ i don't just spout off "good job" like a knee-jerk reaction, yk? if it comes out of my mouth, then it really IS a good thing & i'm pleased.

(at the park yesterday, michael did something he had never done before, & before i could say anything about it he turned to me and said ~ _WOW! i did it! you know, i'm really proud of myself!_














)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritabeth*
I think it is total crazy talk to question ourselves praising our children.

Well said! After reading this discussion, and the article posted by the pp by Kohn, I've decided this is not something I'm going to worry about. If I manipulate my daughter by praising her when she does something socially acceptable, I think that's okay. She can learn the rules of our society, and what it takes to please people, and I'll also try to explain to her why, and then when she's old enough she can decide whether or not she wants to do it.

IMO, knowing how to please people is an important skill. It gets you places, and it helps you get along with others, and it helps you develop empathy. It's not so bad to be a pleaser! And I'd be pretty surprised if my dd did anything just for the praise. If the praise stops and she doesn't like it so she quits, well then, she didn't like it so she quit.

So you people-pleasers, don't beat yourselves up!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
OK, here's one of those things that I don't get with the "no praise" idea. We want children to believe in themselves and we want them to trust their own feelings, right? That's why we don't, for example, tell them "You can't be full yet, eat the rest of your dinner". So, if they are proud of what they've done, and we give them a neutral response or observation, then aren't they going to think "Hey, I thought that was really good but Mom didn't seem to think so. Maybe I was wrong."? Don't we want to validate feelings of joy and pride as well as others? Shouldn't we want to share in their celebration? How could adding our own feelings to their's be a bad thing?

In my previous post, I quoted Kohn with what I *think* might attempt to answer this question. To paraphrase: The idea that praising our children isn't so necessary as taking a valid and enthusiastic INTEREST in what they are doing, what they are passionate about. For instance: in a tired and distracted moment, I have on occasion (although I successfully fight the urge more often than not) look at my son's drawing of a dinosaur and say the words, "GOOD JOB." I don't see that this helps my son feel any more excited about what he doing because while he loves to draw, it's the SUBJECT of his drawing that he's truly passionate about. GOOD JOB implies that I like the way he's draw something, but it shows little interest in his motivation for drawing it and certainly does little to SHARE in what he feels strongly about.

OTOH, if I happen to see him drawing, wander over (without his having to say, "Mom, look at this!") and ask, "what kind of dinosaur is that?" "And what makes the Allosaurus different from the T-rex you drew before?" This sort of interest gets him VERY excited. He talks a mile about each, telling me the differences and usually ends up continuing on and on and on, "MORE PAPER MORE PAPER MORE PAPER MOM!"

Honestly, if my DS's thought process was that my opinion should count for more than his own: -- "Hey, I thought it was really good, but mom didn't seem to think so." -- I'd be concerned. This is exactly the kind of "praise junky" thinking that too much praise (and not enough encouragement via true interest) can cause. I think I mentioned in my previous post that I really don't want DS to care about what I think so much as what HE thinks. I've been using encouraging words since he was tiny. Aside from the occasional slip up, I think DH and I have done a decent job in doing this. DS is four and change, and we have yet to have an instance where I feel he's looking to me or anyone else for approval. If he wants me to come look at something, it's because he's truly excited about what he's doing and wants to share it with me not because he wants me to validate it. And if he's excited about something, I do indeed share the moment with him to the fullest extent of my lovingly *beaming with pride insides* and he knows this NOT because I say so, but because I'm there, I'm interested, I share his excitement.


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

I do praise my kids, but I don't over do it. I also let my dd (ds is is still a bit young) know that she should feel good about herself without me telling her "good job."


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I try to say "you did it!" when DS masters something new. I'm working on not saying "good job" because I'm persuaded by the argument that subjective evaluations of children's actions can harm their intrinsic motivation. Not that "good job" in itself is so awful but I'm including it in my conscious effort to eliminate subjective evaluations.

I don't think I was really persuaded about the whole "punished by rewards" theory until I read some concrete examples. Like the study where they looked at the effect of offering a McDonald's treat to kids who read a certain number of books. The kids offered the treat selected shorter books and had poor comprehension of them when tested. Kids who were not offered the treat selected books they were interested in and tested much better on comprehension. Or when researchers looked at kids painting pictures. The kids who were given subjective remarks like "Nice picture" spent less time painting, and solicited more compliments from adults around them, than kids' whose painting was commented on in a more neutral way. I.e., "You used a lot of green in that picture." It's hard to get in the habit of saying neutral things, but the second comment is much more likely to elicit some kind of thoughtful response form the child, like why they like the color green, or what the picture is about, etc. The second child continues to paint for his/her own enjoyment, the theory goes, rather than only for strokes from the adult.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
But to automatically exclude what, to me, is a natural phrase seems silly and over-analyzing things.

Just wanted to point out that "good job" may come naturally to us now, but only because we all grew up hearing it. I asked my MIL about "good job" and she said nobody used to say that to kids for every little thing they did. "Good job" and similar comments sprung into use around the 70s when it came to be considered very important to nurture children's self-esteem.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Yes. I use it when DD has done something new and clearly seems tickled by it and proud. (I might also say "Wow!" Or "Look what you did!") I also use it when she does something the way we have been asking her to do it (recently, it's been stopping at the end of the driveway and not going into the street). I don't say it a lot, but I do say it.

I appreicate the perspectives of those who are opposed to the phrase, and I am integrating them into my thinking, but this is not something I am going to get all worked up about, generally.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rgarlough*
I don't use 'good job' on its own but I do commend Mason when he does something I appreciate and when I am trying to reinforce positive behavior. More likely, I tell him "Oh Mason, mommy sure appreciates it when you XXX." Or "Wow, you must be proud of yourself, look at how good of a job you did on XXX." I always try to tell him what exactly I'm proud of.

Dh on the other hand, just says, "Good Boy!" "Good job!" or nothing at all... I guess something is better than nothing for him... But he's not really as verbal as I am anyway.

? My son doesn't quote understand the "...sure appreciated that, etc..." He's 2 and he understands "good job"!









I'm confused- why is "good job" bad?


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

I voted yes and I'm not going to stop, but in reality I am consciously trying to stop using it as a generic response. More specifically, I am stopping the use of "good girl" and "good boy."


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

After reading Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards I am bought into avoiding praise of that type. This isn't to say I don't get excited, but I try to make what I say more factual and less judgemental. I say things like 'You caught the ball!' in an excited tone instead of 'good catch' - maybe DD didn't think it was a good catch and I don't want her to think she's not a good kid if she can't catch it next time. I let her be excited about her own accomplishments and not add my judgement to them.

When she does something I appreciate I say thank you, not necessarily "good job" or I point out something that I liked about what she did instead of being generic. ("Thank you for picking up all of your toys") I don't think "good job" helps the child much - I try to give feedback that can help her understand what a good job is.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
I think I mentioned in my previous post that I really don't want DS to care about what I think so much as what HE thinks.

Sorry, Embee, not trying to pick on you, but this was just a really good sentence to quote to start my question.

So, if the child thinks that kicking the dog is a good thing, we shouldn't try to discourage it by inserting our perspective? I think this is where the whole "don't judge", and thus "don't praise", thing starts to get to me. Some things are, in fact, BAD and GOOD. Kicking the dog is bad. Good may be more subjective by family, but in our home, answering when Mom or Dad asks a question is good. Saying please and thank you is good. Helping is good. Sharing is good.

Now, do I say "good job" when either child does each of the above? Probably not only, although I might say "Good job sharing with your sister." or "Thank you for sharing with your sister." or "Look how happy your sister is that you shared with her." To me, these are equivalent phrases and an appropriate action when I notice a child doing something that is, in fact, good.

So, is this whole debate with the exact words "good job" or with praise in general? I doubt I use "good job" (the exact phrase and nothing else) at any time other than when its about all I have time to get out of my mouth. Nor do I praise for breathing. But I certainly think its my job (among others) to make sure my children understand what is good and bad, and I don't have any problem with the idea of praising them for doing a good thing.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jordansmommy*
"You used soft gentle hands on the kitty, and he stayed to let you pet him"

"You put all your books away on the shelf. Now you can find them easily when you want them."

I think these are great alternatives and demonstrate what's missing from "good job." Among the other problems (PP's have outlined) with "good job," that phrase assumes that your DC knows *why* the thing they're doing is valuable. Little ones are a blank slates and what's obvious to us probably is not to them. So "petting the kitty gently" is valuable... why? because the kitty likes it and stays nearby for more. And putting books away is valuable... why? because they can be located more easily for the next use. With explanations like that, DCs can understand purpose and logic and it nurtures them to make good independent decisions later when the DP isn't around, rather than just midlessly replicating behaviors that result in a parroted "good job" from DPs.

IMHO these are the best kinds of responses, and responses like, "I like it when you pet the kitty nicely" are really no better than "good job" because they lack the explanation of *why* and they put the focus on pleasing the parent and not on the meaning of the action itself.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
So, if the child thinks that kicking the dog is a good thing, we shouldn't try to discourage it by inserting our perspective? I think this is where the whole "don't judge", and thus "don't praise", thing starts to get to me. Some things are, in fact, BAD and GOOD. Kicking the dog is bad.

I agree that in many cases there definitely is a clear GOOD and BAD, but I think it would be even better to describe it from the dog's perspective and not the DP's perspective. I mean, really, the offending behavior is effects the dog and not the DP, and I believe the DP's role is to teach the DC as a neutral third party. In this instance I would say "Please don't kick the dog, see how it makes her whine and run away? It looks like it really hurts. Kicking hurts. Can you make her feel better, like this..." (You get the idea). My thought is that the kicking didn't affect you, as DP, directly, so the dialogue shouldn't be about you. (Unless you had to take time out of your day to take the dog to a vet for treatment - and then I would first worry about some serious antisocial behavior in my DC, but then I might say something about effect to my own life... bad example, but that's the idea, IMHO). My DS is still little, so maybe I am naive and putting this into practice will be another story...


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
IMO, knowing how to please people is an important skill. It gets you places, and it helps you get along with others, and it helps you develop empathy. It's not so bad to be a pleaser!

Pleasing people isn't a bad thing, and it certainly is useful to be able to work well with others. It can be taken too far though. Pleasing other people should not be one's main motivation in life, and continually bending over backwards to make sure other people are happy only guarantees that you yourself will be exhausted and miserable since you can never please everyone.

The big thing here I think is being able to internalize your drive to do whatever you do and not rely on the opinions of others in order to feel validated. I have some links somewhere about an interesting thing: the level to which you attribute outcomes to yourself versus other forces (other people, fate, timing, what have you) is a big factor in your level of success at your job, relationships, life management in general. Taking responsibility for the choices you make, and accepting that which you can't control is an important skill.

Empathy is a different skill. It's more about being able to put yourself in the shoes of someone else and understand their perspective, and does not necessarily include pleasing the other person. If anything I'd say empathy is a predecessor to pleasing people, because it implies that you understand what makes that person happy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
And I'd be pretty surprised if my dd did anything just for the praise. If the praise stops and she doesn't like it so she quits, well then, she didn't like it so she quit.

You'd be surprised how much it means to a child to please her parents. There are a lot of threads on this topic here (look for those by Maya44 especially). Children love us unconditionally and our approval is important (even though it may seem like they are out to earn our *DIS*approval at times :LOL)

So while I don't believe that the occasional "good job!" will ruin my daughter's life, I do try to stay away from that phrase (it's really hard!). In the case of accomplishments, I try to reflect what I see ("Wow! You climbed up really high!") During the teaching moments, I try to first describe what she did, then explain why it might be desirable or undesirable ("You shared your toy with Maddy! Look how much you enjoyed playing together" or "You whacked Maddy over the head with your toy. Look at her face. She is sad and crying. Hitting hurts. If you want Maddy to play, show her a toy.") etc.

FTR I also avoid "good girl" which is worse than good job IMO. I am amazed (now that I'm paying attention) at how many people say this to my kid on any given day. Argh.

None of this is meant to be a response personally to you btw







just found your comments to be food for thought and got caught up on the tangent train


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## flibbertigibbet (Sep 9, 2003)

To me "good job" is one flavor in my diverse spice rack of affirmations. Sometimes my daughters simply do well, period. I let them know how, why and all the other lovely "parentally correct" lexicons you all have mentioned. I also let them see the other side of it...in the same varied mannor. I feel that "no" and "good job" are valuable and have their place. As long as I don't turn them into thoughtless hiccoughs of response, I feel quite at home with them.


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## emomama (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:

To me "good job" is one flavor in my diverse spice rack of affirmations.
ITA.









i tend to say "good job!" followed by an explanation like, "you picked up your toy and put it away!" or "you shared your cookie with your brother! wow!"

this has been a really interesting thread. it never occurred to me there may be reasons _not_ to say something as simple as "good job."







:


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)

I say it sometimes, and have started to cringe almost every time I hear myself utter it. But while my goal is not to rely on this as a phrase, I'm not beating myself up too much over it. As a PP said... if it's the worst I do as a parent I'll be ok! So I get what everyone is saying, and try to work within that frame as much as possible. I'm just surprised that it's so hard sometimes!

Oh, and I agree on the "good girl" thing. I get really bothered by that, especially when people ask my daughter "are you being a good girl for mommy?" She always gives a blank look in response to that, so it gives me an opportunity to explain why she has no idea what it means.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

Do you tell your children Good Job?
Yes, and I'm not going to stop. I believe that saying "Good job!" or otherwise praising my kids (we're not talking over-praising here) is instinctual and I'm not going to stop because of something I read.

I feel that expressing my delight at my child's great accomplishments is pure parental instinct and, provided it's not use to coerce, is a wonderful expression of love and respect.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

We say "good job" as an alternative to "good boy" -- which I can't get the grandparents to stop saying on pain of death!







-- because it comments on the _behavior_, not DS as a person. That's the most important distinction as far as I'm concerned. Our son is *ALWAYS* a good boy. We, too, follow up with "...putting your books away," "...helping Daddy in the garage," "...sharing with Liam," etc.

I'd like to point out that children are biologically programmed to seek the approval of their parents & peers -- it ensures their survival and successful entry into society at large. Our children look to us for guidance and boundaries. I don't believe there's anything wrong with this. As in a PP, there is definitely "good" and "bad" in the world. For example, hitting -- or violence of any kind IMO -- is worse than "not good," it's "bad." Period.

I don't believe praise and encouragement in any way suggest that our children are "less than" or "lacking" somehow -- a job well done is its own reward.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I say it sometimes, not in that knee-jerk way some parents have: "Please put on your jacket, good job, now get your shoes, good job!" If DD has done a truly good job of something, I will tell her and usually add some descriptive praise, "Wow, you did such a good job making your bed - look how smooth the blanket is, and the way you decorated it with stuffed animals looks nice, too."

I do understand the reasoning behind the idea that "good job" can be bad, but I think it's fine (like any other praise) if used judiciously.

I don't ever say "good girl," though.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I tell DD good job but I tell her what she did a good job at so she knows what I liked and will hopefully repeat the behavior.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

i really try not to use 'good job', but to provide specifics, or to give dd a very sincere thank-you (with why i'm thanking her)when she's done something that helped me or was thoughtful.

i do slip sometimes, though.


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## dlchris (Feb 28, 2005)

I say it sometimes, but try to acknowledge/describe what he did more than praise it.

Wow, I've learned so much from this thread, thanks mamas.

BTW, I totally agree with the "Good boy" thing - it makes me cringe, though not as much as when my mother said "Bad boy" which was SO much worse...


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