# Should a child...?



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I just had an incident with my mom and my ds. I didnt see the actual thing happen but apparently my 5.5 yr old ds refused to open the door for my mom (she may have had full hands) and my mom got pissed and yelled at him. He said she dragged him in the door, she said she did not touch him.










Then he kept hitting her and I could hear her yelling "STOP hitting me!" several times.

And then my mom called my 5 yr old a nasty little kid.

How would you handle this?

And secondly, are little kids expected to ask "how high" when adults say "jump?" or they are no good, nasty kids?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
And secondly, are little kids expected to ask "how high" when adults say "jump?" or they are no good, nasty kids?

No, but a five year old should comply immediately when told to stop hitting, IMO.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Your child should have opened the door immediately for your mother; it was wrong of him not to and he should be taught to do this.

Your mother should have known better not to yell (unless there was a physical emergency) or roughly drag a child (if it happened) and especially to name-call. That is childish.

More could have been expected for both parties.

*hugs*


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

A child SHOULD show consideration for the needs of others and comply with their reasonable requests, but a child is still learning and tends to be egocentric and is just not going to do these things all the time.

An adult should express disappointment when she NEEDS help and a child refuses to help her, but this disappointment should be expressed reasonably, not with physical power and name-calling.

A child should not hit his grandmother, or anyone, and she has every right to be upset about that and demand that he stop.

I would tell both parties that they are behaving badly and separate them until they calm down.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

so wwyd?

I can only deal with my child. Not my mom. (







)

PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."

I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.










??????


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## caitryn (Aug 18, 2005)

I have noticed that children have a way of saying whatever they need to to keep from getting into trouble. Not all of them understand the concept of lying at your son's age. So is he telling the truth, or isn't he? Children also have a way of telling the truth for the same reason that they sometimes lie, because they don't know that they should/shouldn't.

I would also evaluate your mom's attitude. Is she the type to STILL be saying whatever she can to keep from looking like she's in the wrong? Some adults are like that, too. Have their been previous instances to help evaluate the situation? On something like that, I would think there would be little reason for your mom to say anything other than the truth.

It's a battle of he said/she said, which is never fun.

I don't think you can do much about the door opening thing except work on teaching your son that being polite is a good thing for future occurrences.

As for the hitting, what you do would depend on how you choose to discipline your child. If you know for a fact that he was hitting his grandmother, then, imo, something needs to be done. I'm sure you've had the "hitting is not nice" discussion with him before? My opinion is that the issue should be dealt with before he's old enough for it to really get out of hand. Again, how you deal with it will depend entirely on your parenting style.

Good luck with this. I'm obviously not to this point yet with my 5-month-old, but I'm fairly certain I'll have to deal with similar instances as he ages and starts to learn right from wrong.

You should also have a talk with your mom, I think, about the name-calling and such. It's normal to lash out when angry or hurt, but that doesn't make it right. Be a bit gentle with this criticism, though. Maybe you can get your son and mom to apologize to each other?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

my mom will not apologize. she is never wroing. But I will make my ds apologize even though I hate forced apologys. (They always sound fake IMO.)


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

What a horrible thing to do. Yes, your son should have opened the door. Yes, your mom should have said please. No, he absolutely shouldn't have hit her.

What is your son learning from this? That Grandma doesn't have to apologize and he does? That its ok to call people names if they don't do what you want?

He should have some consequence for the hitting. And Grandma should have some consequence for the name calling. Neither of them did the right thing in this and they should both be aware of it.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

Yea, yea, he should not have hit her. But was she manhandling him? I mean, really? If so, more power to him. That's called self-defense. Shame on her, I mean really! If you could hear what was going on, then she COULD have called to you that she needed help. Really, shame on her!

So, now you know another little area of politeness your child needs help learning, but she sure has set things off on the wrong foot for you. UGH!

One of my children is a bit spacy, and even at 9, might stare blankly at you for a few seconds before he comprehended that you asked him something, and then another few seconds before it clicked that you asked him to open the door. Yes, he knows to open doors for people, but if he's reading or watching a bird, then he just might not hear you at first. Another child cannot stand being put on the spot and at 5, she was uncertain of her ability to open particular doors, and in the situation you describe, I can see her refusing because she would have been afraid of failing at the task. Yes, we're working on this one, too, and two years later, she still might not open the door, but she will offer to hold something while you open it. My third, I won't count because she's still quite little.

My point is, without knowing your child, I can immediately see reasons why a child this age would refuse. And manhandling anyone is no way to teach them something or win cooperation. I see the point of how your son made a mistake, but he's FIVE. I assume your mother is older?


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

How could she drag him to the door if her hands were full? I guess I am missing something.

I agree that your mom lost her temper, but it happens to the best of us. It's too bad that she isn't willing to apologize for that, but that is ultimatly her issue.

Your son should have opened the door for her. Helping when asked, especially with family life, is not always optional, IMO. Just like my husband doing the dishes is not optional, sometimes things have to happen







. But it is normal for a 5 year old to refuse, and your mom's response wasn't really helpful.

The hitting is way out of line, and should be dealt with. If he asked about why grandma didn't say please, or apologize, I think I would just point out that we all have responsibility our own behavior, and he should do the right thing even if she doesn't. It's a bit more complicated than that of course, but it might get a bit deep for a 5 year old.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
No, but a five year old should comply immediately when told to stop hitting, IMO.

Yep. No matter who it is.

Also, he probably should have opened the door. I would NOT be happy with my dd if she refused to help Grandma.

I hope your Mom didn't drag him through the door though. If her hands were full, and she couldn't open the door, she couldn't drag him through it. Right? And is that something she would do anyway? Cuz, I think I'd have just left him standing there and been plain old mad at him.


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## SquishyBuggles (Dec 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.


I agree with this. A 5-year old is absolutely old enough to know that hitting is wrong, especially hitting his GRANDMOTHER repeatedly! They were both in the wrong, and should both be apologizing.


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## birdie22 (Apr 1, 2005)

I would say that the two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes they balance out. Yes, your mom should be adult enough to approach it as a teaching opportunity rather than getting down on his level, but once she took that route, she's had her retribution and it's done.

I consider it a natural consequence that if ds is rude or mean, he might receive rudeness or meanness in return, whether it's another child, an animal, or a random adult. If you suspect that your ds doesn't understand the cause and effect of the situation, you could discuss that with him, but I don't think additional consequences are necessary.

I would only get involved if one is holding a grudge over it. Let it go as quickly as possible.

ETA: I'm not saying I stand by while people are mean to my ds, but if it's already happened and nobody's physically hurt, I let the life experience do its job.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

First off, I'd stop drilling him on the "please and thank you" stuff. He'll learn to do it if that's what his significant adults are doing most of the time. It sounds like maybe he's had the experience of adults refusing to help him 'til they hear the "magic word?"

If that's true, I'd just apoplogize to your son and say you didn't realize that insisting on "please and thank you" might make him feel it was okay to refuse to help someone if they didn't say it "right." And that it's important for us all to help each other, and it hurt Grandma's feelings when he refused to help her.

About the hitting -- I don't want to imply that your mom would be dishonest and say she didn't touch your son if she did. But the way you're describing it, the hitting doesn't make any sense if she just asked your son to open the door, he refused, and then she went ahead and opened it herself (maybe after she had to set her stuff down) and came in.

Why would he just run in the door behind her and start hitting her? It just seems more believable to picture her asking, him telling her something like, "Not 'til you say the magic word!" (or else just quietly waiting for her to say it), and then her opening it herself and angrily dragging him through. And *then* him hitting her because he's rightfully enraged at getting manhandled.

I'm not excusing the hitting -- but as an adult if someone tries to drag me through a door, I have a lot more power to stand up for myself and make sure it never happens again. A child in that situation often feels powerless and their anger feels uncontrollable, because they honestly don't have adult resources for handling this sort of disrespect.

I don't know ... you know your mom and son and I don't know them at all. I'd believe my daughters over my mom any day, because my daughters are honest with me while my mom has often been dishonest with me.

So it's really your call who to believe. But just based on a brief analysis of your account of this incident, I'm thinking your son is being more truthful than your mom.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

He should have opened the door. And he shouldn't have hit.

But my goodness, who is the adult and who is the child here? Because they are both acting like children. At least one really IS a 5-year-old.

I'd talk to both of them. (The talk would mainly consist of "I don't want this to happen again.") And I wouldn't force any apologies.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I wouldn't make him apologize, personally. An apology is worthless unless he initiates it himself and really means it.

I would, however, teach him that he should open a door if an adult asks him to, even if he/she doesn't say please, and that he should never under any circumstances hit anyone.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I wouldn't make him apologize, personally. An apology is worthless unless he initiates it himself and really means it.

I would, however, teach him that he should open a door if an adult asks him to, even if he/she doesn't say please, and that he should never under any circumstances hit anyone.

Well, for an adult that is a member of the family, at any rate.


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## bluebirdiemama (May 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 

PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."

I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.










??????

Excuse me please but I think this is adorable. I think your son was justified exept for the hitting, and maybe he should have said "Grandma, say please". I think your mom should know better than to call a five year old nasty. I would be really upset about that.

I would sit them together and ask each one what made them upset, your ds could say sorry for hitting, and your mom should take the hint and apologize for name calling when he says it hurt his feelings.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.


ITA.

Also, how could she drag him if her hands were full? Hmmm.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

On the apology topic: I think if you speak to your son and explain to him what he did was wrong, maybe he would be willing to apologize and it doesn't have to be a "forced" apology???

We had an incident with my MIL and my eldest son when DS was about 7 years old! DS was in the wrong to a certain extent (although it was really minor) BUT MIL was way, way, way out of line!

Dh and I discussed the incident with our son and he could see that his actions were not right. He asked me why he should apologize if she would never do so.... I told him that we are only responsible for our own actions and we OWN them. She is responsible for her actions and even if she doesn't apologize it doesn't make it right.

He went and apologized to her! She was less than gracious in her acceptance thereof, but that is her problem!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

OK....

1. I would be PO'd at anyone for talking to my child like that.

2. I would of course discuss how it's nice to open doors for people, especially if asked too. But chances are we've all ready had the conversation and he just forgot.

3. I would feel inclined to believe that no "please" was said, simply because there does seem to be an epidemic of children not deserving that. Unless I knew otherwise about the adult in question. I would of course take the time to explain that since he is expected to be polite with adults, adults are expected to be polite with him.

One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...









I agreed with the rest of your post, but I must be misunderstanding you here. The OP said that the grandma's hands were probably full, so she asked the boy to hold the door for her. Are you saying that was inappropriate in and of itself? (I don't think you would say that, but I'm confused by the above quote.)

And what "women and children" thing do you mean? It was a woman and a child wanting to get through the door -- surely they weren't supposed to stand there and wait for a man to come hold it open for them?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

just a short response - I have only recently changed my stance on the "say please" thing. Before I was completley on board with "they will learn it naturally." But after being completley overwhelmed and discusted by my older 2 (ages 3 and 5.5) demanding me to get them things/do things for them, I decided to change my stance on it because It is just so freaking rude. I want to be respected at least a little bit and I want to not feel like a slave. (And my 12 mo old is going to be talking soon and if I have 3 kids acting like that I just might die.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...









The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 









First off, I'd stop drilling him on the "please and thank you" stuff. He'll learn to do it if that's what his significant adults are doing most of the time. It sounds like maybe he's had the experience of adults refusing to help him 'til they hear the "magic word?"

If that's true, I'd just apoplogize to your son and say you didn't realize that insisting on "please and thank you" might make him feel it was okay to refuse to help someone if they didn't say it "right." And that it's important for us all to help each other, and it hurt Grandma's feelings when he refused to help her.

About the hitting -- I don't want to imply that your mom would be dishonest and say she didn't touch your son if she did. But the way you're describing it, the hitting doesn't make any sense if she just asked your son to open the door, he refused, and then she went ahead and opened it herself (maybe after she had to set her stuff down) and came in.

Why would he just run in the door behind her and start hitting her? It just seems more believable to picture her asking, him telling her something like, "Not 'til you say the magic word!" (or else just quietly waiting for her to say it), and then her opening it herself and angrily dragging him through. And *then* him hitting her because he's rightfully enraged at getting manhandled.

I'm not excusing the hitting -- but as an adult if someone tries to drag me through a door, I have a lot more power to stand up for myself and make sure it never happens again. A child in that situation often feels powerless and their anger feels uncontrollable, because they honestly don't have adult resources for handling this sort of disrespect.

I don't know ... you know your mom and son and I don't know them at all. I'd believe my daughters over my mom any day, because my daughters are honest with me while my mom has often been dishonest with me.

So it's really your call who to believe. But just based on a brief analysis of your account of this incident, I'm thinking your son is being more truthful than your mom.

I like everything that was said here in Mammal-mama's post.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
so wwyd?

I can only deal with my child. Not my mom. (







)

PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."

I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.










??????

And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.

I'm seriously shocked! She didn't say please?!? Ok, so why did he HIT her? This behavior does not sound "adorable" to me, but rather, very _mean._ (especially the "she didn't say please" part).


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.

I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.


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## TinyMama (Sep 4, 2007)

You say you can't force your mother to do anything, and of course you can't. But I hope you can talk to her a/b this, and tell her you've also spoken to your DS.

Then I'd talk to DS about manners, respecting his grandma, etc. And tell him you've spoken to Grandma about it too.

Then, assuming you trust your mom with your children (regardless of her lost temper in this situation, which IMO can happen to anyone) I'd send them out on an errand together to practice their manners and to make up to each other. They don't have to know that that's what you expect them to do, but if they have a generally good relationship, I bet that's what will happen.

I remember being sent out grocery shopping with my Grandma after I threw a fit at her house b/c she didn't have anything I wanted to eat. My mom figured one long, drawn out grocery trip w/a slow old lady would cure me...and it did.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.









I'd not let them be alone together (grandmother and boy), and I'd explain to both of them the reasons why: you believe that grandmother may have grabbed and dragged your ds (grandmother not trustworthy), you _know_ that ds hit grandmom repeatedly and did not stop when told to stop (ds not "trustworthy", meaning he is needing your close supervision and guidance at this age). I don't take that suggestion lightly, but I simply would not leave my 5 yo dc alone with someone that I thought they might hit (likely to do so...have before, etc), especially if I have reason to believe that the person they hit will handle it very badly.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.









Tell him he needs to make ammends hitting hurts he used his hands to hurt so help him think of a way he can use his hands to make ammends. (he can use his hands to make an "applogy" card he can use his hands to help grandma do some dishes ect its not so much that it will make a lot of sense (dishes have little to do with hitting) but that he is involved in the ammend and it practicing using our body voices hands ect in a proper way. Allow him to think of somethng you'd be suprised what they can come up with.

Deanna


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

The whole incident sounds unpleasant, and I want to give you the validation you are seeking that your mom said something not nice to your kid. I'm sorry! You want to feel like you can expect a kid's grandparents to be nice, you know?

However, a 5 yo should stop hitting whenever asked by whomever asks, no matter what. Even if he feels justified, even if you feel he was "provoked." He certainly was, but he's too old for any provocation to lead to uncnontrollable physical aggression. That's far enough out of line that I would be focussing on that piece basically to the exclusion of the rest of it. I'm not even sure I would do much validation of his feelings(which I am usually a huge fan of), because I wouldn't want any more confusion about whether it is ever ok to hit. Hmmm, typing that out sounds cold, but I don't mean it to be- I mean what I would be talking about with my 5 yo is the hitting, how we can help him stop that, that we never ever do that, etc. Maybe one suggestion (and I think this would make the mad-at-your-mom part happy) would be to limit contact with your mom for a little while, if she's the only person he hits.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
Tell him he needs to make ammends hitting hurts he used his hands to hurt so help him think of a way he can use his hands to make ammends. (he can use his hands to make an "applogy" card he can use his hands to help grandma do some dishes ect its not so much that it will make a lot of sense (dishes have little to do with hitting) but that he is involved in the ammend and it practicing using our body voices hands ect in a proper way. Allow him to think of somethng you'd be suprised what they can come up with.

Deanna

actually, funny you mention this becaiuse this kind of happened without me even instigating it tonight.

I am trying to start a tradition of "if you cook, you dont have to clean up and vv." at dinner so I invited ds to cook with us tongiht. My mom taught him to peel potaoes. He used his hands to make up for it and they had a good time doing it.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.


I completley agree with this.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Transformed, do you think your mom dragged him through the door? Would she have been able to do this if her arms were full? Is she given to lying to get out of a sticky situation? I think whether you believe her or not has a huge bearing on how you would approach this!

I am bit on addressing the heart of a matter.... the heart here to me is that there was a lack of kindness on both their parts (she could have said please and he could have opened the door; the same thing with the dragging and the hitting). You cannot address her issues, BUT you can address the issue with him.

Regardless of whether you believe that a kid should hit/bite/scream etc when they are being abducted (and of course I believe this, too); I also think a 5 year old should NOT continue hitting an adult he KNOWS and presumably trusts when he is asked to stop. Yes, I can understand that he would lash out if she dragged him through the door; BUT I would not be okay if my kid continued hitting her after she has repeatedly asked him to to stop.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

What strikes me is that there are so many mixed messages going on. It's not really that consistent to insist on politeness, which is a form of respect, when there is a lot of disrespectful language and ways of treating people going on.

Practical stuff - I think the hitting would be the number one concern for me. I would put it back on your 5 year old. "We don't hit, and that was unacceptable. How are you going to keep from hitting the next time? How will you make amends this time?"

I'd also remind him that if someone grabs him or anything like that, he needs to come to you.

Next, the door. I would talk about how it's frustrating not to have help. I'd really concentrate on modelling and expressing help when you have the chance. I'd try to give your son the sense that he can be really helpful by leaping on the least thing with appreciation (not praise exactly, but something like "I noticed you held the cupboard door open for me, and wow, was that a huge help. Thank you.")

I'd also let your mum know that right now she can't depend on your son to help her so she needs to plan accordingly. And reiterate that you don't allow name calling at your place, even if it won't do any good.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I will defend/support my childs right to defend her self physically if needed I wont condone her countining physical harm once the other had backed down. Even if he was being man handled and had justifation to yell no or hit to be let loose it sounds like he countinued even after. That is not okay.
TOTALY EXTREME example (NOT comparing to your son) but I'm kinda thinking about the recent youtube video on the news where a boy is violently beating up another with the father standing around saying things like Bash his head in son







He claims the other kids were bullies and he ws likely correct but turning his son into one was't the answer. Allowing his son to deffend him self was fine encoraging (or in some cases ingnoring) countinued bullying is not.

Deanna


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
He should have opened the door. And he shouldn't have hit.

But my goodness, who is the adult and who is the child here? Because they are both acting like children. At least one really IS a 5-year-old.

I'd talk to both of them. (The talk would mainly consist of "I don't want this to happen again.") And I wouldn't force any apologies.

This.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
my mom will not apologize. she is never wroing. But I will make my ds apologize even though I hate forced apologys. (They always sound fake IMO.)


Forced apology.....yeah I know.....but at the same time.......children don't always know what contrition is.....so we have to explain that when we hurt people's feelings then it's right to say..."I'm sorry." Even if we don't feel sorry at the time, we can still be sorry the other person is sad.

You're right about your mom though....mine is the same way.

If she doesn't have any manners, at least your son will know what they mean. Some adults when it comes to children don't think they can make any mistakes around them, and even if they do they don't apologize because it shows a lack of authority or self control. I know one couple who are like this with thier children and it really makes me mad.

Your son has an excuse, he's only five. What does your mother have to say for herself?







:


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say I completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.

I absolutely do NOT expect my children to "say how high when I say jump."

When my DD chooses to do things like not hold a door open for me (I have a baby and we have a screen door on a spring so I ask for help with the door almost everyday) it's usually because she is in a cranky mood.

I choose to deal with the root cause of the crankiness rather than discipline the refusal to hold the door (not that I don't occasionally get pissed about it.) DD is on the whole a thoughtful, helpful child so I see no reason to push the issue.

Now, if I made a big deal about it and started yelling and getting physical in anyway, hitting is likely to be her response.

Is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

I say deal with the hitting, which is unacceptable. Then deal with your Mom being immature and resorting to name calling with a 5 year old. When things have calmed down, and out of your mothers presence, talk to your child about holding doors as a kindness/polite thing that people do for each other.


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## Aleo (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
I'm seriously shocked! She didn't say please?!? Ok, so why did he HIT her? This behavior does not sound "adorable" to me, but rather, very _mean._ (especially the "she didn't say please" part).









:


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Hitting is not okay under any circumstances IMO. Other than that, (all my opinion) if she asked him to open the door, he can say no. The "she didn't say please" sounds a lot like post-incident "lawyering," saying something you think will avert punishment rather than the truth (I see lots of 4 and 5 yo doing this; I'm sure it's a stage).

I would point out to him (and not to gma) that his actions (and hers) have consequences that just come with the territory (one might just be that gma doesn't want to hang around him for a while because it's too exhausting... and he might feel vice versa about her). I would explain that he has the right to say no to a question asked of him, but that it might well make gma mad if he says no when she needs help. It doesn't foster love between them, and it makes her life harder.

Te biggest issue I see is that he also does not have the right to hit. He has to find a different outlet for anger or fear when he feels like hitting.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I for one can totally see how Grandmother could drag a child through the door with her hands full. Scenario:

She has two hands holding a heavy bag, asks child to open door.
Child refuses.
Grandmother manages to open door holding bag and put bag inside.
Grandmother drags child inside.

Alternatively she might let go of the bag, straining the other arm, open the door with the free arm, then use said free arm to tug child inside because she believes he will not come on his own. She is angry but not being overly forceful, but child can see that she is angry so it feels forceful.

That, in my opinion, is not manhandling but if the child is not used to being dragged over the threshold, it would feel like aggression.

I would ask my kid to apologize and think for awhile about how his grandmother feels about being hit and ask grandmother to consider that because we do not tug children around in our home, he interpreted this as an act of aggression. I would explain that he has been asked to think about what he's done wrong and apologize, but it might come easier if he knew she was sorry about the argument.

As for opening the door: we always respect our elder's requests unless it gives us a funny feeling inside, a scared feeling, or we don't know that person.

As for please, maybe it would be best in your lessons to answer rude requests with, "I will get you an apple but I'd appreciate it if you asked politely first." This would model a minimally acceptable response that a child could give grandmother if he felt inclined to teach her a lesson. I bet she'd have laughed if he'd have come out with something like that.

(On further consideration, my hitting solution is more targeted at a child of my daughter's age, i.e. two... maybe more serious reflection and discussion is required if he's still hitting at his age.)


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

It is entirely possible that the child responded to being yelled at, by hitting. Grandma was wrong to yell, but the child was wrong to hit and should have had consequences for doing so, based on the fact that he continued to hit after being told to stop, repeatedly.

Some kids do not always tell the whole truth. Even small ones. Children are not always innocent of everything, nor should they be above reproach, simply because they are under the age of 18.

Now, if it is discovered that your mom actually did drag him, she should also be dealt with. I would go ballistic if someone were manhandling my kid.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
actually, funny you mention this becaiuse this kind of happened without me even instigating it tonight.

I am trying to start a tradition of "if you cook, you dont have to clean up and vv." at dinner so I invited ds to cook with us tongiht. My mom taught him to peel potaoes. He used his hands to make up for it and they had a good time doing it.


I don't understand how this amends the hitting, or makes up for it. It seems to skirt around the issue and ignore it.
I would consider amends to be something that attempts a fix - a card made by the child, an action that shows their compassion or contrition...not a fun time ignoring the issue.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
just a short response - I have only recently changed my stance on the "say please" thing. Before I was completley on board with "they will learn it naturally." But after being completley overwhelmed and discusted by my older 2 (ages 3 and 5.5) demanding me to get them things/do things for them, I decided to change my stance on it because It is just so freaking rude. I want to be respected at least a little bit and I want to not feel like a slave. (And my 12 mo old is going to be talking soon and if I have 3 kids acting like that I just might die.)









Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them? With 3 children 5 and under, it just seems like there's a lot of need and only one you.









I only have 2 -- an 8yo and a 3yo, and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. And they've actually absorbed the "please" and "thank you"-thing by osmosis. The overwhelmed feeling comes at those moments when I feel like I can't successfully meet everyone's needs including my own -- it has nothing to do with whether I'm hearing "please."

Since you have 3 so close together, I imagine that overwhelmed feeling comes a lot more frequently for you.







Just hang in there, they really do grow and learn, and so do we.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.









I was trying to get more tangible information about what happened, and which person you thought was generally more truthful -- your son who said your mom dragged him through the door, or your mom who said she never touched your son. I still haven't heard back from you about that.









I realize some don't see how your mom could have dragged your son through the door if her hands were full. However, I'm guessing that if she managed to get the door open, she could also manage to grab a small child and drag him through the door.

Is your son in the habit of launching himself at people and beating them up without provocation? If not, then I'm guessing your mom did something to provoke the attack. Also, is your son in the habit of refusing to do simple things when people ask him? If not, then I'm guessing your mom did something that made him feel like refusing to help her.

None of this excuses hitting people or refusing to help them -- but sometimes we can solve these surface problems by getting at the underlying cause. That's my "tangible" suggestion, just for future reference.







It sounds like you guys have already moved on from this particular incident.

I think that when people develop a chronic tendency to refuse to help others, or a chronic tendency to beat people up (I'm not talking about little kids, but people with a lifelong problem), this behavior usually stems from a feeling that no one will ever respect them or take them seriously. Their only way to feel powerful is to say "No" to even the simplest request, or to violently react to every perceived slight.

Again, I'm not talking about little kids, and I'm certainly not saying this is your son. I'm actually trying to reassure you that as long as you raise him in an atmosphere of respect, where he's used to being listened to, I don't think you have to worry that he'll grow up without developing basic empathy for others.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
I don't understand how this amends the hitting, or makes up for it. It seems to skirt around the issue and ignore it.
I would consider amends to be something that attempts a fix - a card made by the child, an action that shows their compassion or contrition...not a fun time ignoring the issue.

I partly agree the amending can certainly be "fun" but it should still be in focus of changing a "bad to good" (for lack of better words) if he said (as wel as his age can) I will spend some time with grandma helping her in the kitchen and as a result of that amend they enjoyed time peeling potatos than super its an acton done to dirrection make right a wrong and there is no reason it can't turn out enjoyable.. Its also though means understanding I'll help grandma in the kitchen she may ask me to do something not so fun like taking out the trash. Thats not a punishment.
Its super great they had fun in the kitchen but I wouldn't say that was an ammend.
Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.
I don't think anyone is suggesting not opening the door is a "punishable" offense. I would be one to address the decession and remind my DD about her manners but I wouldn't like give a conquence for not opening the door. However the hitting no. Again I do/will support my child defending her self but to countinue one the person has stopped would deffiently not be okay.

Deanna


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
Your son should have opened the door for her. Helping when asked, especially with family life, is not always optional, IMO.

I completely agree. At five, he should know that the right thing to do was to comply with her request to open the door when her hands were full. This is not asking "how high"; it is being a polite and respectful family member.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I would NOT be happy with my dd if she refused to help Grandma.

This. Outright refusing when gramma needed assistance? Oh, it would not go over well here AT ALL. I'd be mad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

Some on MDC are not fans but I LOVE the Love and Logic classes. There are books too but the classes are better IMO. Logical consequences (like being cold if you don't choose to take your coat) are easy if we just keep our mouths shut and let it work (whole learning experience is ruined if we tell them how they'd be warm if they'd worn their coat; they know that and would rather shiver than admit you are right when it is being rubbed - however nicely - in their face). Consequences that we have to administer are harder - because it isn't always easy to figure out what it should be.

In the OP's scenario, it is a bit hard because it sounds like gramma may have made some less than stellar choices too - but I wouldn't take the word of a 5 year old who has just made two poor choices in a row and is at risk of getting in trouble - and of course he knows it. The truth may be somewhere in the middle.

What was to come right after they arrived home from shopping? If they were coming home with items to make cookies together for example, I'd put that off for another day. If dad was going to take him to the park after work, I'd let him know how disappointed I was in his choice to refuse to help (more minor) as well as repeatedly hit his gramma (more major) and that the park trip wouldn't be happening today as he needs some quiet time to think about what better choices he could do next time as well as maybe draw gramma a picture or some way of making amends.

I've also said something like "I am really upset about what happened today and need some time to cool down before I'm ready to take you sledding. I'm sure tomorrow will go better for all of us." Because it would upset me greatly to witness (in earshot or whatever) what transpired for the OP - on a number of levels. I think it is ok - good even - for kids to learn that what they do affects other people. Five isn't too young.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MOMYS* 
Regardless of whether you believe that a kid should hit/bite/scream etc when they are being abducted (and of course I believe this, too); I also think a 5 year old should NOT continue hitting an adult he KNOWS and presumably trusts when he is asked to stop.

I understand that some people will say that if gramma is allowed to in any way physically help to get him inside, he is at higher risk for true bad things to happen. But that is an awful big stretch IMO. I hate to even see the word abduction in this thread - because of course 100% of us would agree kids or adults should try to get away and get help if they were being abducted. It was his GRAMMA getting him to go into HIS OWN HOUSE.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Alternatively she might let go of the bag, straining the other arm, open the door with the free arm, then use said free arm to tug child inside because she believes he will not come on his own. She is angry but not being overly forceful, but child can see that she is angry so it feels forceful.

*As for opening the door: we always respect our elder's requests unless it gives us a funny feeling inside, a scared feeling, or we don't know that person*.

First, if gramma and grandson are having an argument about his refusal to help her, and she gets inside with the groceries or whatever it was, leaving grandson outside - well, some would be hanging her out to dry for leaving a "5 year old outside ALONE!" He is being defiant already, so she takes him by the arm and brings him in - which some will hang her out to dry for. The poor woman is damned either way.

And I LOVE the bolded part!!!!! Brilliant! Grandson was being... snarky for lack of a better word. Gramma didn't take well to it, and I wouldn't blame her. If she was overly rough with him, that IS a problem. But I wouldn't assume that from the information given. And a 5 year old repeatedly hitting her as they stand in the kitchen is totally unacceptable. 5 is not 2; 5 knows better. I'd understand thinking he was a brat (please don't get hung up on the word; that generation seems to go to that when our kids misbehave - at least my MIL does), but it would have been good if she'd kept that in her head instead of saying it out loud.


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## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

Yes, I think that if someone needs help and asks for it, another person should at least respond...including a child.
The hitting is not okay. I don't think it's okay for one person to hit another.
I think a conversation regarding being helpful and keeping hands to oneself when angry might be in order.


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.

Yeah, that. I think if you dole out physical aggression you are going to get physical aggression in kind. Especially if you are an adult and dealing with a child. It doesn't make it right but I think neither of the parties are right in this instance. I think discussing the hitting is not good is fine but also validating the boy's feelings considering he was being manhandled is in order too.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I agreed with the rest of your post, but I must be misunderstanding you here. The OP said that the grandma's hands were probably full, so she asked the boy to hold the door for her. Are you saying that was inappropriate in and of itself? (I don't think you would say that, but I'm confused by the above quote.)

And what "women and children" thing do you mean? It was a woman and a child wanting to get through the door -- surely they weren't supposed to stand there and wait for a man to come hold it open for them?









If her hands were full, then she wouldn't have been able to drag the 5 yo through the door.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.

I understand that. I do that too. I'm just saying that I don't expect a 5 yo to hold the door for me. Mainly because doors for public buildings around here tend to be very heavy.

Just saying what I was _taught._


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abbieb* 
i'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say i completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

*yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.*

i absolutely do not expect my children to "say how high when i say jump."

when my dd chooses to do things like not hold a door open for me (i have a baby and we have a screen door on a spring so i ask for help with the door almost everyday) it's usually because she is in a cranky mood.

I choose to deal with the root cause of the crankiness rather than discipline the refusal to hold the door (not that i don't occasionally get pissed about it.) dd is on the whole a thoughtful, helpful child so i see no reason to push the issue.

Now, if i made a big deal about it and started yelling and getting physical in anyway, hitting is likely to be her response.

*is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.
*
i say deal with the hitting, which is unacceptable. Then deal with your mom being immature and resorting to name calling with a 5 year old. When things have calmed down, and out of your mothers presence, talk to your child about holding doors as a kindness/polite thing that people do for each other.

ita.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I partly agree the amending can certainly be "fun" but it should still be in focus of changing a "bad to good" (for lack of better words) if he said (as wel as his age can) I will spend some time with grandma helping her in the kitchen and as a result of that amend they enjoyed time peeling potatos than super its an acton done to dirrection make right a wrong and there is no reason it can't turn out enjoyable.. Its also though means understanding I'll help grandma in the kitchen she may ask me to do something not so fun like taking out the trash. Thats not a punishment.
Its super great they had fun in the kitchen but I wouldn't say that was an ammend.
Deanna

I agree, amending a wrong can be fun. It's not punishment. But the focus does need to be on the other person feeling better and/or the relationship healing. We have three parts of sorry here; acknowledging it, fixing it, and preventing it in the future. Each part is simple but they make up a whole...


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them? With 3 children 5 and under, it just seems like there's a lot of need and only one you.









I only have 2 -- an 8yo and a 3yo, and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. And they've actually absorbed the "please" and "thank you"-thing by osmosis. The overwhelmed feeling comes at those moments when I feel like I can't successfully meet everyone's needs including my own -- it has nothing to do with whether I'm hearing "please."

Since you have 3 so close together, I imagine that overwhelmed feeling comes a lot more frequently for you.







Just hang in there, they really do grow and learn, and so do we.


I dont think it will make the overwhelmed thing go away but I'll be darned if I let my kids treat me like I am a servant to them. kwim?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
- but I wouldn't take the word of a 5 year old who has just made two poor choices in a row and is at risk of getting in trouble - and of course he knows it.

I guess it depends on the child. My children sometimes make poor choices -- but they're also honest about what they did and why they did it. This may be because, similar to the OP, I do the "talking to"-method so they're really not scared of getting in trouble.

Quote:

I understand that some people will say that if gramma is allowed to in any way physically help to get him inside, he is at higher risk for true bad things to happen. But that is an awful big stretch IMO. I hate to even see the word abduction in this thread - because of course 100% of us would agree kids or adults should try to get away and get help if they were being abducted. It was his GRAMMA getting him to go into HIS OWN HOUSE.
I don't see it as paving the way for abduction. However, I do see it as paving the way for Grandma to feel safe doing this sort of thing in future -- *if* the OP's son had just tolerated her doing it this time. The fact that she got hit for doing it makes her less likely to try it again, IMO. I do think it would have been better if he'd simply said, "I don't like being pulled, Grandma" -- but it's hard to say if Grandma would have paid much attention to that.

Quote:

First, if gramma and grandson are having an argument about his refusal to help her, and she gets inside with the groceries or whatever it was, leaving grandson outside - well, some would be hanging her out to dry for leaving a "5 year old outside ALONE!" He is being defiant already, so she takes him by the arm and brings him in - which some will hang her out to dry for. The poor woman is damned either way.
But that's not how she explained her actions to the OP. She told the OP she didn't touch her son. I could be a lot more understaning of someone saying, "I pulled him through the door because he wasn't coming, and I didn't think you'd want me to leave him outside" than I could to someone lying and calling my child a liar.

OP, you haven't answered my question -- do you think your son was lying, and your mom was telling the truth when she said she never touched him? Does it seem likely to you that your son would just haul off and start hitting your mother with absolutely no provocation?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

additional info - My ds does have a habit of hitting.

He also has a very serious "personal space" issue. It happens with hugging too. I have seen him hug AND hit people to the point where people are like WTF?







:

I am trying the homeopathic remedy nux vomica for it (just the kind from the store - I may need a stronger dose thouh) but I havent figured out to totally address the issue and correct it from a behavioral standpoint.

And since I lean "Unconditional Parenting" its really really really REALLY hard.









I have realized there needs to be some balence though. UP is a really great resource but completley stand alone, it doesnt really work when your kid is attacking other people with hugs or hitting.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
Yea, yea, he should not have hit her. But was she manhandling him? I mean, really? If so, more power to him. That's called self-defense. Shame on her, I mean really! If you could hear what was going on, then she COULD have called to you that she needed help. Really, shame on her!

I'm sorry...were you there? How do you know she manhandled him? The OP did not know and you seem to be taking a major leap. Just a thought.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
I'm sorry...were you there? How do you know she manhandled him? The OP did not know and you seem to be taking a major leap. Just a thought.


I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



















I feel you. My mom manhandled me too as a child, but would NEVER do that to my kids. KWIM? She thinks the sun rises and sets with them. Now she has said that they were acting badly but that was it. Does your ds have some anger issues?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



















Oh. Well in that case it sounds like he might have been hitting your mom for no reason, and might have been lying when he said she dragged him in.

But it's also possible that he might have been telling the truth, since you say your mom manhandled you as a child. What about your mom's honesty? Have you ever known her to lie to you?

If your mom's a totally honest person, and your son habitually lies, then it's obviously quite different from how I saw it. It sounds like you're taking steps to uncover why your son lies, and why he habitually hits people for no reason.

At this point, I think the best thing to do is keep searching for the underlying reasons, and doubtless others who've dealt with similar stuff can give you better advice than I can.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Deleted.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



















It sounds like this runs a lot deeper than weather or not he should/shouldn't have did or did not open the door this one time.. Or weather she this one time manhandled him or not. Sounds like breakdowns on both sides that run deeper than this incident.

Deanna


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Does your ds have some anger issues?

Yeah.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.

I do agree with this. Anyone adult or child should open a door someone when asked if the other person cannot. I would expect a five year old to do this. Also 5 is more then old enough not to hit. Grandma could have been nicer though if she is like my mom she probably was appalled and did not know what else to do.
What ended up happening?


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.

This made me smile because I read the first post and thought that he must be learning his manners and she didn't say 'Please!' I must be on the same wavelength as your son ;-)

I'm not sure how their normal relationship is when nobody else is around, but I was a very sensitive kid and the attitude and mood of people around me severely changed my behavior. As a matter of fact, it went on like that until I was well into my 40s when I realized why I would "outside myself" sometimes.

So, in addition to all the great logical advice I read on the 1st page (sorry, couldn't read all 4 pages), I'm going to add that sometimes there's a lot more simmering underneath than what appears on top.

Personally, I wouldn't ask for either of them to apologize unless it came naturally. I would tell my mom that I was sorry for any stress she might of experienced, and I would see it as a good teaching opportunity to show my son that he's smart enough to act better than adults when you're not around.

YMMV,
/kolleen


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



















My DS is a reformed hitter, but still struggles with impulse control and emotional regulation. My son has some mild SN. Have you had your child evaluated? At 5, random hitting and violent speech is really out of line - not that it doesn't happen, but it needs to have consistent response.

In a situation like you've outlined, I'd...

1. First, I'd firmly take him if he needed help moving himself, or invite him to join me, on the bottom step until he had regained self-control.

2. I'd have something like the following conversation.
me: Son, I understand you and Grandma had a falling out.
son: Yes...<insert long, self-serving, woe-is-me explanation>
me: You sound very upset about this. I'm sorry you're feeling so badly. I'd like to talk about what happened in the beginning. Grandma was coming in with a lot of heavy bags and her hands were full. She needed help with the door because her hands were full with all the bags.
son: Yes, but....
me: ok, please let me finish. I have a question for you. How do you think Grandma felt when she had all those heavy bags, and her hands were full, and she asked you for help, and you said no?
son: bad.
me: yeah, I think she probably felt bad, and maybe hurt, and maybe frustrated.
son: yeah
me: So imagine you were caring all the bags, and needed help, and asked for help, and the person you asked refused? How would you feel?
son: I'd be mad! And sad!
me: yeah, I bet. Do you think you should have helped your grandma, because she needed help?
son: she didn't say please!!
me: I know, and that really bothered you, didn't it?
son: yeah, so I hit her, because it's not fair that she told me to open the door and didn't say please! we're supposed to say please!
me: you know, manners like saying please are important, but so is helping someone who needs help. Her forgetting to say please didn't change that she needed help, or that you were there and should have helped her because she needed it.
me: so, to Grandma, she needed help with the door while carrying all of the heavy bags, she forgot to say please, and you hit her a bunch of times. Phew! She had quite the time, didn't she? How do you think she's feeling?
son: baaaad. (this is usually where he'd get it and hang his little head)
me: are you allowed to hit?
son: no.
me: what can you do instead of hitting?
son: use my words or get help.
me: right. So right now, you're feeling badly because you hurt grandma and you two aren't getting along. What do you think you can do to make it right?
son: apologize for not helping her and hitting her.
me: that sounds like a great idea. can you think of anything else?
son: i can help her put the groceries away.
me: that sounds like a great idea.

We'd then hold hands to the kitchen to talk with Grandma. This really worked for us, as we broke down what happened, teased out the "facts," talked about how the various players felt, and practiced perspective taking.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
My DS is a reformed hitter, but still struggles with impulse control and emotional regulation. My son has some mild SN. Have you had your child evaluated? At 5, random hitting and violent speech is really out of line - not that it doesn't happen, but it needs to have consistent response..


As a voice of experience, ita. A 5 yo should not be hitting on a regular basis. It is a red flag that _something_ is off. It probably isn't something huge, but whatever it is needs to be addressed because the child is having a hard time. The hitting is evidence of his struggle. It may be a SN, or it may be an environmental issue (does Grandma live with you? If so, is it stressful for the family?). For my dd, who hit until she turned 7 (sigh), it was anxiety. Things got much better for her, and us, once we got her anxiety under control, and the hitting simply disappeared....


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah, it sounds like your ds has *some* issue that needs to be resolved. Is there any stress in his life that could be causing this? Food intolerances?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I think they were both wrong in this situation. Hitting should never be acceptable, nor should name calling. You CAN tell your mom that she should not call your son names. As for your son, Tell him how to bettle handle the situation in the future and what the consequence will be if he does not.

The way apologies work in my home is i suggest them with a reason why its good to apologize. In that scenario I would say to my son "I know you love your grandmother and wouldn't want to hurt her. You were upset by how she treated you and only wanted her to say please. Remember that not everyone will always use their manners, even though they should. You can do the right thing and be polite even when others are not. Or you can remind her next time to say please. As for you, the right thing to do would be to apologize. We apologize to keep our relationships good, and show people we care about that we did not mean to hurt or upset them. Even when you think the other person should apologize too, you can still do the right thing even if they don't." I would also talk to your mom though and let her know you think they BOTH owe eachother an apology.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
As a voice of experience, ita. A 5 yo should not be hitting on a regular basis. It is a red flag that _something_ is off. It probably isn't something huge, but whatever it is needs to be addressed because the child is having a hard time. The hitting is evidence of his struggle. It may be a SN, or it may be an environmental issue (does Grandma live with you? If so, is it stressful for the family?). For my dd, who hit until she turned 7 (sigh), it was anxiety. Things got much better for her, and us, once we got her anxiety under control, and the hitting simply disappeared....

We have had a REALLY stressful last year. He has seen my dh hit a wall twice. (DH suffering from depression and just general stresses) And for a while dh and I were getting in really innapropriate fights in front of the kids, and he has witnessed me being so depressed I couldnt stop crying for 3 weeks.

Everyone says I cant make excuses for him but, really, the kid has been down the road and back again.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is so nasty to everyone around her all day, every day.

She needs to lead by example instead she normally acts younger than my 5 yr old.

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that?







:


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## KJoslyn78 (Jun 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
my mom will not apologize. she is never wroing. But I will make my ds apologize even though I hate forced apologys. (They always sound fake IMO.)

NO offense - but if she cant apologize for how she talked to him - then maybe she needs to not be about any "nasty kids"

IMNSHO - she was just in the wrong for her language as your son was for hitting... and as an adult - even more so. She should KNOW better then to talk to another person (child or adult) like that.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
We have had a REALLY stressful last year. He has seen my dh hit a wall twice. (DH suffering from depression and just general stresses) And for a while dh and I were getting in really innapropriate fights in front of the kids, and he has witnessed me being so depressed I couldnt stop crying for 3 weeks.

Everyone says I cant make excuses for him but, really, the kid has been down the road and back again.



So then all the adults in his life should step up to the plate. Sounds like he is parroting back what he sees......
As far as making excuses for him - I think there is probably a middle road. He might really need you in his corner. But the behavior could be getting out of control. Is he the oldest?

Quote:


I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is so nasty to everyone around her all day, every day.

She needs to lead by example instead she normally acts younger than my 5 yr old.

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that?







:
Yeah - that's pretty immature. Again, sounds like he is just parroting back to her what he hears.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them?

This is slightly OT, but I just want to say that for me it makes a tremendous difference. I have no trouble doing a zillion things if asked nicely, but if someone is barking orders at me, I get really annoyed. My daughter is nearly 3 years old, and I recently have been working a lot on please and thank you and "asking nicely." I told her that people would much rather do things for her if she asks nicely. Sometimes she still barks an order "OPEN DOOR MAMA!", but when I remind her to ask nicely, she calms down and asks "Peas mama open door peas?" and then I open the door.

In our house, this comes from my husband being a stay at home dad and not "hearing" the first few requests. So dd rapidly developed a habit of screaming/demanding what she wanted. "MILK DADDY!" etc. Because he tended not to hear her (how he can tune her out I will never know) until she reached that level. I remind him about it but he still does it a lot (arrgh). However, she's doing a lot more asking and saying please/thank you than she was before I started working on it.

I think a child (or anyone) asking nicely for something, even if it's lots of requests, is far less stressful than one who is ordering you about or being rude/demanding in the manner of the request. Please and thank you are not absolutely necessary (you could say, "I'd really like some grapes. Could I have some grapes, mom?" and that would still be asking nicely), but for a young child they're part of the equation and it doesn't hurt to learn.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
So *then all the adults in his life should step up to the plate.* Sounds like he is parroting back what he sees......
As far as making excuses for him - I think there is probably a middle road. He might really need you in his corner. But the behavior could be getting out of control. Is he the oldest?

Yeah - that's pretty immature. Again, sounds like *he is just parroting back to her what he hears*.

he totally is parroting. and yes we should. he is the oldest.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
he totally is parroting. and yes we should. he is the oldest.

Then you and he both have my sympathy. My oldest is a boy. The oldest has it hard. Especially if they are a boy. My son is now (almost) 15. And he is one who thinks outside the box. He is just not the sort of kid who automatically gives respect. For a long time, I was embarrassed by that. I am a southern girl and was raised with the whole 'Yes Ma'am' idea. You know - don't speak unless you are spoken to....

My son comes across as rude and arrogant when in reality he is the sweetest, most loving kid. He snuggles with me every night.

My point is, when you combine his intelligence, make up and the crap that was happening around the house when he was in kindergarten.... Quite honestly, we were setting him up for failure.










He doesn't sound like the sort of kid who listens when you say no hitting. No yelling. Say please. He needs to see everyone else doing that. Not all kids are like that.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
additional info - My ds does have a habit of hitting.

And since I lean "Unconditional Parenting" its really really really REALLY hard.









I have realized there needs to be some balence though. UP is a really great resource but completley stand alone, it doesnt really work when your kid is attacking other people with hugs or hitting.

My brother was a hitter too. By the time he was six, both our parents were dead. So he had an awful lot of anger and confusion about his world. Therapy helped a LOT. Happy to tell you that he is the most lovely adult ever - funny and responsible, with friends and family who adore him, his own house, his own business, took flowers to our gramma every time we visited, etc.

I don't know much about UP - what would it say you'd do if your child was hitting someone? Sounds like whatever that is isn't working for you. I don't think it is wrong to gently remove the child from the situation until he calms down.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
We have had a REALLY stressful last year.

I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I'm sorry your family had a stressful year.







I do think it explains some choices your son makes. Of course it affects him. I hope things are improving for all of you.

I'm not clear on the flush example. I would just flush it myself if I found the toilet unflushed - but if it were a habit, I'd ask the person to flush it. This actually happened at the school where I work. First few times I went in to the toilet unflushed, I just flushed it. Third time I waited til the next class meeting and asked the kids to be sure they flushed. 'Cause that is just icky...


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that?







:

Someone who knows that if she makes the request herself to the grandson that it will not be complied with?


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.

This is just what I was trying to say. But you said it more helpfully.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
My brother was a hitter too. By the time he was six, both our parents were dead. So he had an awful lot of anger and confusion about his world. Therapy helped a LOT. Happy to tell you that he is the most lovely adult ever - funny and responsible, with friends and family who adore him, his own house, his own business, took flowers to our gramma every time we visited, etc.

I don't know much about UP - what would it say you'd do if your child was hitting someone? Sounds like whatever that is isn't working for you. I don't think it is wrong to gently remove the child from the situation until he calms down.

I'm sorry your family had a stressful year.







I do think it explains some choices your son makes. Of course it affects him. I hope things are improving for all of you.

I'm not clear on the flush example. I would just flush it myself if I found the toilet unflushed - but if it were a habit, I'd ask the person to flush it. This actually happened at the school where I work. First few times I went in to the toilet unflushed, I just flushed it. Third time I waited til the next class meeting and asked the kids to be sure they flushed. 'Cause that is just icky...

Its just another thing we are working on.







He is a little boy who is always eager to get back to the action and often forgets to flush. I dont have as much of a problem with it as others- we all have different tolerance of things.

It seems to resolve itself more quickly when we talk about it.

I am picking up the pieces of being depressed for his whole life. (Bipolar actually.) I feel that my kids have not had an ideal situation - and I havent been the mama I wanted to be. But there is so much to look forward to now that I am taking care of myself.







:

I still have some issues, and he does, and everyone in our family has little quirks, but maybe we can use them as strengths instead of weakness.

I would really like to get him evaluated for SN but I dont really know where to go for it - (We homeschool) Or what to say. and I am just learning how to accomplish goals. (Being biplolar made it nearly impossioble for me to actually get anything DONE.)


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## Lily Eve (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
Yea, yea, he should not have hit her. But was she manhandling him? I mean, really? If so, more power to him. That's called self-defense. Shame on her, I mean really! If you could hear what was going on, then she COULD have called to you that she needed help. Really, shame on her!

So, now you know another little area of politeness your child needs help learning, but she sure has set things off on the wrong foot for you. UGH!

One of my children is a bit spacy, and even at 9, might stare blankly at you for a few seconds before he comprehended that you asked him something, and then another few seconds before it clicked that you asked him to open the door. Yes, he knows to open doors for people, but if he's reading or watching a bird, then he just might not hear you at first. Another child cannot stand being put on the spot and at 5, she was uncertain of her ability to open particular doors, and in the situation you describe, I can see her refusing because she would have been afraid of failing at the task. Yes, we're working on this one, too, and two years later, she still might not open the door, but she will offer to hold something while you open it. My third, I won't count because she's still quite little.

My point is, without knowing your child, I can immediately see reasons why a child this age would refuse. And manhandling anyone is no way to teach them something or win cooperation. I see the point of how your son made a mistake, but he's FIVE. I assume your mother is older?









Totally agree with this post!!


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## Lily Eve (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say I completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.

I absolutely do NOT expect my children to "say how high when I say jump."
.

Yep. I agree.


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## Lily Eve (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.

I feel exactly the opposite. DS is probably nasty to the grandmother because the grandmother doesn't treat him with respect and so he reciprocates. The grandmother manhandled the mother of this boy while she was growing up, so she was probably doing the same thing to the son. If the boy has space issues, perhaps the grandmother should respect that. I would be inclined to believe the boy and not the grandmother. I mean, if anyone manhandled my son, grandmother or otherwise, I think I would lash out at them too.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lily Eve* 
I feel exactly the opposite. DS is probably nasty to the grandmother because the grandmother doesn't treat him with respect and so he reciprocates. The grandmother manhandled the mother of this boy while she was growing up, so she was probably doing the same thing to the son. If the boy has space issues, perhaps the grandmother should respect that. I would be inclined to believe the boy and not the grandmother. I mean, if anyone manhandled my son, grandmother or otherwise, I think I would lash out at them too.

This is very similar to my view and Its is very hard to figure out how to maintain a relationship with my mother while feeling this way.

It is not bad enough to cut my parents off, and my dad is an absolute gem, but it is quite hard considering my mom.

If my dad were gone, I dont think I would have a relationship with my mom.

Neither one of my parents respect the kids though. Its not how they were taught to treat kids. We hear alot of "Aw, that didnt hurt." and "Dont cry"


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Transformed, I think you have already made up your mind regarding this situation...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

transformed -- we homeschool and my youngest has some special needs. We're getting evaluations through our local children's hospital, and the evaluations are covered by dd's Medicaid (I'm not sure what insurance you guys have). To start the evaluations, I first talked with dd's primary doctor, who agreed that dd might benefit from some help, and gave us the referral to the hospital.

The speech pathologist also thinks dd has some sensory issues. We're awaiting evaluations in the Occupational Therapy department and the Behavioral/Developmental department. But as for now, the pathologist has recommended speech therapy 2x a week. Since the school district provides 1 session a week for free, she wants us to go with that 1 day a week, and come to the hospital for the other session.

Even when you homeschool, any services provided through your local school district that your child qualifies for, are available for your child. For free. Simply because you're a taxpayer and you live in that district.

This in no way means that if you get your child evaluated, you "have" to use whatever services are recommended. You always have the right to decline. We definitely want dd to have the speech therapy -- but are not at all interested in putting her in preschool (something recommended). Just take what works for you and your child, and leave the rest!

You can learn a lot in the Special Needs forum, I wish I'd started hanging out there a long time ago -- but, you know, sometimes it takes us parents a while to recognize our child might have a special need.

About your mom -- do you live with her, or does she live with you or just spend a lot of time at your house? I ask because we had a lot of stress a few years back when we stayed with my mom for a while (6 months) for financial reasons. I quickly realized that it wasn't going to work out, and it took a few months but we finally dug ourselves out enough financially to get our own place again.

Once we were living separately from her, things got better for a while. We eventually did have to break contact, though.








If you are living at your mom's, I hope you're able to get out soon. I realize some families can function well in situations like this, but it doesn't sound like your mom is happy in the situation, and I don't think she'll be able to properly support what you're trying to do to help your son.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I could see calling a kid who's hitting you a nasty little kid. Hitting someone is a particularly nasty sort of thing to do.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
so wwyd?

I can only deal with my child. Not my mom. (







)

PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."










??????

LOL welll ok thats just too funny...sorry I have nothing to add but that part made me LOL


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."

I haven't read all the responses so please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, my first thought when I read this was, well it depends HOW the child is asked, if I say to my kids 'open the door' they will not, and nor should they IMO, I wouldn't want to either, treat others as we expected to be treated ourselves, it sounds as if your mother may have given a command and your child didn't like it, your child shouldn't have hit, your mother shouldn't have called names - no one is innocent in this situation but I do believe that if your mother had been polite in the first instance none of this would have happened.


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
How would you handle this?

My dd is younger, so I am kinda guesstimating, but I would consider it dealt with now that he helped with dinner and they 'made up'. I don't think forcing him to apologize, or do anything else like make a card (one of the many suggestions) would help this situation.

I would talk about it again with my child, and help them to work through it, hoping they would want to apologize if it was warranted, but I don't see how forcing it teaches them to feel sorry. I might say something to the Grandma in front of the child, including something like, "I'm sorry ds hit you" to open the communication.


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