# Maybe I'm not cut out for AP parenting...I'm starting to let my baby CIO but I desperately want help not to...



## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

My 15-month-old son is normally rocked to sleep. This had been working ok, with of course some bumps along the road, but until a few months ago he was doing great with nighttime sleep.

Almost nightly over the last 2 months, he wakes up around 11pm and is up until about 3am...EVERY NIGHT. We rock him in a dark room, and he just wiggles around and points at the door to go out of the room and fusses. Occasionally he's hungry, most of the time he wants to play. He stopped nursing when he got sick at 11-months, so I don't have that to use to get him to sleep.

He's been waking up around 7:30am (total of 8 hours of nighttime sleep after counting the interruptions.) He naps about 2 hours during the day (11:30-1:30pm).

We've addressed: temperature, amount of food eaten (nighttime snack, cutting out dairy), outside time (too much/too little).

I've gained 10# in the past month because I'm eating to stay awake for my 4-year-old and to work at my evening job (hence, no naps or early bedtimes for me). Exercise (my sanity) feels impossible on 3-4 hours of sleep, my husband and I are arguing all the time, and I'm yelling at my older daughter. We have no family to help.

We are getting so angry and frustrated with him at night, that we are starting to let him cry for 3-5 min. No more, because it breaks my heart to hear it. It's not intentional, it's when we've reached boiling. He screams, and then I go in there and he grasps me so tight that I want to cry...but I CANNOT take this anymore. My husband is resentful towards me b/c of the nighttime parenting choices we've made. I don't know what to do but I CAN'T take this anymore.

Please help me! This goes against EVERYTHING I believe in but at some point I need a break!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

My now four year old went through a months long phase like that too. It sucked. Honestly I don't think it's anything you're doing or not doing. Some kids just have major sleep issues.. We did find with my son that we absolutely had to keep him up until a certain time or he would have a huge wakeful stretch at night like that. Also...melatonin. We bought Source Naturals brand (whole foods and Amazon carry it) and gave him literally a tiny drop that was 1/10th or 1/20th of a mg and it would work within 20 minutes. Lots of people use much higher doses and actually the neurologist we saw for his sleep issues suggested melatonin. I felt pretty safe with such a low dose knowing lots of people use 1mg/ml each night with their kids. Good luck. It wont last forever.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

That sounds really hard! My older son used to wake up for a couple of hours in the middle of the night once in a while, but not all the time like you're describing. When he did it, I would put a movie in for him and turn the lights down low and lie down on the couch while he played with toys and watched his movie. If I was up for it, I'd knit or something. I refused to "parent" him during that time other than to keep him safe. But he was a little older, like between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2.

I would be tempted to keep him up later, like maybe until 11 or midnight, depending on when you go to bed. And if you need to, refuse to parent! lol I know that sounds terrible and I'm not even entirely sure what I mean. But there was a time where my older one just did not want to go to bed before me (we're both kind of night owls), but I *needed* some time to do my own thing and I just could not be on duty during all of my waking hours. So, after around 9:30 I would consider myself off duty. If he pooped or need food or something, I'd deal with it, but I would allow myself to set him up a movie or show or even to pretty much ignore him if he was entertaining himself and do my thing and not feel bad about it. And those times when we did each do our own thing but in the same space were nice! I enjoyed it a lot actually. It was nice to have him there with me at times that I didn't consider myself to be on duty.


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## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

Great idea about the melatonin...I've tried Calms Forte but I'm not great at giving it to him at 15 min increments (I don't want to turn on a light) so I don't know that it does much.

The first few times this happened we did try to see if he needed food, and then when he didn't we did just let him play...now we don't want him to think that when he wakes up it's playtime so we just rock him...and rock him...and rock him...but it drives me nuts! So we try to "not parent" during that time as well, we kind of ignore him as he's rocking.

I have some hesitation about the idea of keeping him up really late...I already feel like he's so far below the curve of recommended sleep hours. I have concerns about what continued sleep deprivation might do to him. He does'nt necessarily seem tired until that 11:30am time (and sometimes, not even then) and generally he is a pretty happy little dude. I wonder if he might actually be OVERtired and that's what this is about...does anyone have any experience with that?

Thanks for all your responses. A trip to Whole Foods for melatonin has just been put on our agenda!


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## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

I went to Whole Foods and they told me that melatonin given any higher than .5mg has been shown to cause seizures...so it made me a little too nervous to give it to him.

Now he won't go down for a nap.

The anger and frustration I'm feeling is very intense right now...as horrible and detrimental as I feel CIO is, I can't help but wonder if that's less harmful than me not being able to control this anger I feel when I'm so beyond exhausted right now. Ugh...


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## gardenofsimple (Aug 28, 2008)

My middle son did this. We would block off the living room, lay on the floor and let him play while we dozed. We would trade nights so one of us slept soundly in bed, the other lightly downstairs.


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## rudhaen (Feb 24, 2010)

We didn't have this precise problem, but when we were having sleep issues with my son I checked out Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers from the library, and it had a bunch of really helpful information and suggestions. One of the things we did around that age was vigorously babyproof our room and let him come in if he woke up and would not sleep and just toddle around in there while we slept. Usually he'd get in bed with me after a little bit and settle down, but even if he was up for a while we could mostly sleep through it--better for my husband and I than losing hours and hours of sleep.

It sounds to me like your son might indeed be overtired as he is getting quite a bit less sleep than the average for his age group. Maybe you and your husband could read NCSS or something like it and figure out a game plan together? That might at least resolve some of the tension. It may well be a phase that just has to be endured, but it sounds like you all could really use some help either from a doctor/care provider or an expert of some sort if just to help get you on the same page. I hope things get better soon!


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## Emmeline II (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> I went to Whole Foods and they told me that melatonin given any higher than .5mg has been shown to cause seizures...so it made me a little too nervous to give it to him.
> 
> ...


I'd never heard that and I "know" (online) a lot of SNs parents who use melatonin with their children (including myself) so I looked it up and found the article below from the mayoclinic.

Quote:


> It has been suggested that melatonin may lower the seizure threshold and increase the risk of seizure, particularly in children with severe neurologic disorders. *However*, multiple other studies actually report reduced incidence of seizure with regular melatonin use. This remains an area of controversy. Patients with seizure disorder taking melatonin should be monitored closely by a healthcare professional. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin/DSECTION=safety


I can't find anything about the very low amount of .5mg being of particular significance--I think the Whole Foods person picked that out of the air.

You could also talk to your Dr. about referring your ds for a sleep study.


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## callahansmama (Mar 21, 2011)

When my son was this age he wasn't up for hours at night but he couldn't fall asleep on his own and he woke several times a night to nurse. This is what we ended up doing upon working with a sleep consultant:

I began putting him to bed and just laying down on his floor or sitting in the rocking chair with my e-reader. He cried, but I was there and reassured him. It took him an hour and a half to fall alseep at the beginning but I always stayed until he fell asleep. Then I began leaving the room after a while with the door open (he started getting silly and playing too much) and then ultimately we began closing the door and he now falls asleep easily on his own. This helped his night time sleep greatly although he didn't start sleeping through the night until he nightweaned at 23 months.

I would try an earlier bedtime if anything, rather than later. An 11 pm bedtime for a 15 month old sounds obsurd to me! My son sleeps from 7-6 or 7am and naps for 2 hours at 26 months. When he was that age he went to bed at 6:30.

Hope you find somehting to work for you soon!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> I went to Whole Foods and they told me that melatonin given any higher than .5mg has been shown to cause seizures...so it made me a little too nervous to give it to him.
> Now he won't go down for a nap.
> The anger and frustration I'm feeling is very intense right now...as horrible and detrimental as I feel CIO is, I can't help but wonder if that's less harmful than me not being able to control this anger I feel when I'm so beyond exhausted right now. Ugh...


That made me very nervous too. And even though our neurologist and lots of others told me it was safe, the research I did convinced me it was not 100% safe. However it also wasn't safe for me to be driving him around on no sleep. That's why I tried the tiny dose in the first place. If you're uncomfortable I totally understand, but if you want to try, use a .05 or .1 mg dose. That is well welllllll below what most people use and reccomend but it works for us. That is tiny. It's like a drop. You have to get a tiny syringe from the drug store that goes in .1 ml increments. I was surprised that literally 1/20th of a mg/ml ( that brand is 1 mg per ml which makes it easy) works. Good luck with whatever you choose!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *callahansmama*
> 
> When my son was this age he wasn't up for hours at night but he couldn't fall asleep on his own and he woke several times a night to nurse. This is what we ended up doing upon working with a sleep consultant:
> 
> ...


I totally respect that different things work for different people. When DS was doing this we got this advice again and again. Maybe he was that 1 in 100 kid who it didn't work for but it backfired miserably. We HAD to keep him up until around 10 or he absolutely would wake up around 1 or 2 and be up until 5 or 6. It made no sense but that was how his body worked. He had to be very very tired and in fairness, it was a battle to keep him up, he was clearly overly tired and I felt guilty, but it was much better to stretch him before bed and get a decent night of sleep. That up in the middle of the night business is pure torture. Not all kids are wired the same way and not all typical sleep advice will apply to all kids. We found this only through a lot of trial and error after reading a million sleep books and deciding to try something every book told us was "wrong". The melatonin was a lifesaver for those long middle of the night times while we were figuring it out though.

People with typical sleepers do not understand. Calling a late bedtime absurd just adds to the feeling that youre doing this wrong. Do what works for your family. Nobody else has to walk around in a sleep deprived fog but you, so you should do what gets you the most sleep. Try lots of things and you'll hopefully figure out what works for him.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I totally respect that different things work for different people. When DS was doing this we got this advice again and again. Maybe he was that 1 in 100 kid who it didn't work for but it backfired miserably. We HAD to keep him up until around 10 or he absolutely would wake up around 1 or 2 and be up until 5 or 6. It made no sense but that was how his body worked. He had to be very very tired and in fairness, it was a battle to keep him up, he was clearly overly tired and I felt guilty, but it was much better to stretch him before bed and get a decent night of sleep. That up in the middle of the night business is pure torture. Not all kids are wired the same way and not all typical sleep advice will apply to all kids. We found this only through a lot of trial and error after reading a million sleep books and deciding to try something every book told us was "wrong". The melatonin was a lifesaver for those long middle of the night times while we were figuring it out though.
> People with typical sleepers do not understand. Calling a late bedtime absurd just adds to the feeling that youre doing this wrong. Do what works for your family. Nobody else has to walk around in a sleep deprived fog but you, so you should do what gets you the most sleep. Try lots of things and you'll hopefully figure out what works for him.


ETA: Callahansmama, this post sounds a lot like CIO to me too. If that's what you want to do, of course that's your choice. Being in the room or not doesn't change that the goal is to have baby get to the point where they realize no matter how much they cry they will not be physically soothed by mom. Eventually they realize it's futile to cry to get their needs met so they just go to sleep. I'm totally unimpressed with sleep consultants. It's pretty easy. Refuse to acknowledge your child's only form of communication and eventually they'll stop trying to communicate with you. I dont understand why anyone would need to hire a specialist to implement that.


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## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

My DD had a stretch of about 2 weeks of the party at night thi g. She was about 9 mo the old at the time and would be up from 1 to 4 or 5 am after getting a clean diaper and nursing lots. I also went with the baby proofing. I stayed in the. Yesteryear with her, closed the door and just let her crawl and play until she wore herself out. In the meantime I curled up on the floor and got more sleep. She was happy and quiet so didn't disturb anyone, I got to rest, and she got over her wakeful period. After 3 to 4 hours, she would start fussing and I could nurse her down quickly, put her in the crib and go back to bed. This phase corresponded with a time when she had a REALLY rough time napping and actually dropped her one nap. Once I fixed the nap situation (blackout drapes and a naptime routine), she slept much better at night. Now at 15 months she is still up multiple times a night but nurses back down easily. If your gut says he is overtired, see if you can get him to nap more maybe using a stroller or even the car.

My other thought is teething. My DD is getting six teeth at once now and that with the heat is really not helping. I find that some cold water offered at night does wonders. She has a few sips, settles right down and nurses nicely instead of arching and fighting the breast.

I am amazed that he is still enough to be rocked if he isn't sleepy. I wouldn't have that option at all with my DD. maybe playing for a while in a safe place would wear him out faster and you could be there but sleeping.

I did try CIO one night before I found out about AP. DH and I lasted five minutes. These days I still don't get the sleep I want but I get enough to get by. My DD always sleeps worse if she is overtired from missed sleep but not from activity.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

This sounds a bit like my daughter when she was getting ready to drop her nap at 18 months. If she napped - which she often needed to - she was a wreck at bed time. But if she didn't nap, she would go down pretty easily.

Most of the solutions I have seen offered sound like things to try, earlier bedtime, later bedtime, dropping nap, moving nap earlier etc. Also make sure that kiddo is getting enough running around and activity during the day. Nothing helps sleep like being genuinely tired.

My daughter is a night owl. She still goes to bed around 10 (sometimes later) our biggest battles came when we tried to get her to go to bed before she was ready. You can't make someone sleep when they aren't ready.

CIO never really helps. Even the folks I have known who have done it say that every time they hit an illness, or a developmental leap or something like that where the child needs more attention, they have to do it all over again. So, trust your instincts, be present for your baby, and see what works. Don't be afraid to change course, or try something new. Also remember that often things will change every couple of weeks and then you will be dealing with something else entirely.

All kiddos are different, and you know your kiddo best. And if you need to walk away for a moment, then do. Better to get yourself on an even keel and then go back and deal with him, than to lose your cool and get everyone agitated and worked up. They know when you're pissed off, and they key off that energy.







It is hard, especially when you are super tired. Best advice I ever got from a veteran mom was: This too shall pass.


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## callahansmama (Mar 21, 2011)

I didn't let my son cry it out, you would have to hear in more detail what i did and this sleep consultant read all about my beliefs as a parent and my parenting style so the strategies were totally based on that. He was much happier after he began falling asleep peacefully in his bed (cosleeping never worked for us although I wish it had) he woke up with a smile for this first time in 16 months! It worked for us and it was a suggestion. Some of the responses to me trying to be helpful remind me of the whole "Are you mom enough?" article. I am an AP parent, just the same as all of you.

Also, I have seen firsthand how children who stay up late are affected as students and learners. If a 3 year old is going to bed at 10 or 11 or midnight, how will they learn to get up in the morning for school when kindergarten starts? I can see that being a very difficult transition and for me, having time to myself and with my partner in the evening, make me a better mother no doubt about it. I said I said it sounds obsurd to me and it does. I never did have a typical sleeper by any means until my son started falling asleep on his own with the confidence to know that mom and dad were busy in the kitchen or living room and that he was safe and loved in his cozy little bed. Before that - nightmare for 16 months.


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## Choose2Reuse (Feb 27, 2012)

Oh man, that sounds really hard! I hope you find something that works!

My 10-month-old DD does the wake-up-and-party thing sometimes (or the I-refuse-to-go-to-bed thing). Usually it's because of tummy problems--she has a lot of food sensitivities, and weirdly, unless they're reeeeeally bothering her she'll be happy, just....up. She wants to crawl and roll around, and only eventually gets really tired and crabby and cries. Something to consider, I guess, but you'd probably have noticed it before if that was your kiddo's problem.

The way I do it is to declare any time after bedtime "no-parent" time, just like another poster upthread. If she won't try to go to sleep, then she can be up, but she has to play quietly and happily while I do something--no parent amusing her constantly. If she complains much, we go back in and try the soothing-to-sleep routine again (because she usually doesn't complain till she's really tired).

If she wakes up and starts crawling/rolling and can't be soothed to sleep, I just make sure she can't hurt herself and then kind of half-doze and pretend to sleep unless she gets upset and wants help getting back to sleep. If she cries, I wake up all the way and nurse her or whatever. Sometimes she just needs to squirm and then she can settle down all by herself.

Good luck!!


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## callahansmama (Mar 21, 2011)

He cried but communication was not shut off and his needs were being met. He was tired and his mother was there to help him fall asleep. It might not be how you would do it but you can't say I wasn't meeting my child's needs. This wasn't an infant, this was a 16 month old with very good receptive language skills who was being verbally and physically soothed. It took him 1.5 hours to fall asleep the first night and he cried some of that time, he was in the habit of nursing to sleep and for him it wasn't working because he would wake upset and need to nurse to fall back asleep, even then he'd be fitful and upset because he just needed to sleep. You don't need to have the stomach for crying it out because that is not what I did, you are just being close minded in my opinion and refusing to listen to what I am saying. My child is well adjusted, confident, loving, and loves to get in his bed at night and for naps. I really can't believe you would say his needs were not met.


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## callahansmama (Mar 21, 2011)

And if you read my original post I said it took him 1.5 hours to fall asleep, not that he cried for that length of time at all.


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## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

My DD now 2.5 went through many changes with sleep and the most horrendous started at 15-16mo. Its huge developmentally. More for my DD then 18mo, she started walking at 16mo. If that means anything, not sure.

Everyone I know has a kid that goes down at 7-8pm and up at 5-6am. That's the norm (generally) I guess. Not for my night owl. She's always loved to go back to sleep after a 6am wakeup. She wants to stay up till midnight. So I just let her. She still is on this schedule. It's her natural rhythm I guess.

It could also be teething. That is STILL keeping us up at night here. What I can say is let him play in a dark boring place, then in an hour or so, put on your wrap and an album that's boring, I like mellow down-tempo electronic stuff. Tell him to come dance with you. Rock him to sleep and get in atleast 20 mins of a low aerobic workout. My DD now loves certain albums and eventually would ask to go in the sling/wrap! I'd always offer a stuffed animal to snuggle. And put on white noise to get to sleep faster and to stay that way.

It'll pass. If you co-sleep, it's much easier to settle back to sleep. Setup his crib next to your bed if that's an option. DH won't like it but you need sleep so he will surely agree I hope! HTH!

Oh and Rubidoux-- your post right above mine is very WELL PUT. It's so important for us as parents to let our kids be kids and not worry about time like we have to. I'm glad to hear your son loves school and transitioned to earlier bed times easily. Your post really put a smile on my face!!!


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## LilyKay (Jun 28, 2011)

I think the term CIO is so unhelpful. There is letting your baby at six months scream his lungs out for 45 minutes, and then letting your 15 month old (who understands that you have not disappeared forever) whine for 10 minutes. There is panic freaking-out crying, I'm-in-pain crying and there is I-don't-like-things-are-not-going-my-way crying. And I feel sometimes people pack them all under the title CIO.

From the get-go my daughter was not a "good" sleeper (I hate saying that), but more or less needed me to be there, needed to be rocked, I'm pretty sure you know the drill. I think what happened when I reached rock-bottom sleep wise is I made a decision, that having a sane and engaged mother some of the time is more important to me than having a drained exhausted mother all of the time.

I set a couple of rules, one was like "Unless it is a serious illness, or a fever, I will not get up with her during the night." She sleeps with us in the room, sometimes in our bed. So I comfort her in a very low hushed voice but I do not get up. She'll cry (upset crying, not screaming), or fuss around but when she realizes that we will not get up, she goes to sleep. We had a few night wheres she was literally playing in the dark on our bed while we were pretending to sleep. I used all my will power not to get up, not to fuss and not to get angry and scream at her to go back to sleep. I was literally talking to myself in my head "if you say something, she'll try harder to get you to get up".

I had to change my mindset from my baby crying is bad, to my baby crying is neither good or bad but she trying to tell me something, listen. Sometimes that something is "I'm freaking out here and I absolutely need you", and sometimes it is "I'm feeling cranky or I'm having trouble going back to sleep". The first I'm there no matter what, the latter depends on my energy levels/mood.


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## Yelena22z (Jun 28, 2011)

I like the idea of trying a later bedtime. My daughter at 14 months goes down between 9:30 and 10:15pm&#8230;its an easy no hassle process. I have tried to put her down earlier and its a struggle (takes 30-60 min) and she wakes up at 6am which makes it miserable for me. Some babies are just wired differently. A longer nap could compensate for missed sleep or he may start waking up later. Also&#8230;try to break the rocking routine. I would not recommend TV at night as it will keep the baby up longer and mess with sleep&#8230;.but what if you read a book&#8230;take him to your bed / room? Or&#8230;.stay in his room for reassurance but let him cry. I wouldn't be able to do this and it sounds like you arent cut out for it either but maybe the hubby can try. Also&#8230;maybe you let the hubby do the night shift&#8230;he may be more firm with the baby (letting him cry a bit, etc) and that could be what he needs.

In the end&#8230;this too will pass&#8230; hang in there and try to keep your sanity.


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## ZahraFajr (Sep 17, 2011)

We have had some stressful times, for sure. My baby is 10 months old right now. We've been basically homeless since before he was born. My husband had a very stressful job and when my son was 4 months old, he had happy days but started crying every time his dad came home. My husband noticed that and decided to quit his job and get back into construction. However, certain things made it so that we stayed with my grandparents, then at a hotel until we finally moved in with an elderly lady who made life with a baby very difficult. We had a bedroom to live in, a bedroom to cook in (toaster oven and mini fridge) and a bathroom in her upstairs. She was big on water conservation, which is good, but that meant showering only once every 3-4 days. She has 2 dogs and 4 cats, so there is cat litter all over the floors, as well as fur. The food prep area wasn't very sanitary and we got some illness and mild infections because of it. She is a healer, so we couldn't interrupt clients at her house. That meant leaving the house at 10am every morning and not being allowed back until 3pm every evening. We don't have a car, so we would stock the stroller full of provisions and try to figure out naps and playtimes and everything else outside in parks and such. My baby had a lot of difficulty and developed certain behavior patterns that we couldn't, but had to, put up with. We were all stressed out and so was he and he was very clingy some days and other days wanted nothing to do with me.

A fire swept through the hills near the house we were living at and we evacuated an hour south where family lives. We were gone a little over a week. Our baby was very calm and happy while we were gone because he had room to crawl around that was clean and he was allowed to squeal and be loud without us freaking out and hushing him up. The day we got a ride back to our town, I called the lady who was putting us up to let her know we'd be back and she said we could come get our things, but we'd not be allowed to stay. My mom put us up in the hotel where she works and lives for a couple weeks. We're still in the hotel right now while we save money for a house of our own and our baby is so happy. He can cry and scream and laugh and play and we have baby-proofed the room we're in. He has freedom and we have the freedom to be humans and, as a result, none of us is stressed out. All of his behavior patterns that we don't like are dissipating. Now comes your problem....

Based on my experience, it sounds to me like your son is feeling insecure because you and your husband are fighting all the time. Try to chill out and maybe have your husband smoke some weed. Talk to him and tell him that with your arguing, it is stressing your baby out. Take away some responsibilities - don't live beyond your means (move into a cheaper house, get rid of an extra car, etc.), it will take away any excess financial stress. Your baby isn't waking up at night because you made wrong sleep decisions when he was younger. He's needing his mommy because life in the house is crazy and stressful. Try to come up with compromises between you and your oldest daughter and tell her that in order for the house to be peaceful, she must try as well.

If you have a television, limit it or leave it off. Take your son outside to play in the park or something and try to spend quality time during the day, without electronic interruptions. Giving him your full, full attention when you're exhausted will be hard, but if you can manage to be with him fully and play with his toys or something for even an hour a day, he will probably start calming down. Give him lots of tight hugs and kisses and assure him that you're there for him and you love him and he shouldn't worry because you care.

This may not be the problem, but it seems like your house is so stressful right now that he is stressed, too. The way he deals with it is to get up when no one is yelling or screaming or awake and spend some quality time with mommy, hence him holding you so tight when you finally walk to his room. Try to take deep breaths, get a baby/mommy yoga book or take a class with him and try to chill out and make life simpler and happier for you and him, if not the whole house. Escape the house, if you have to. Take just him or him and your four-year-old and go somewhere like a grassy area or a playground - and play with him/them! You can also set up a playgroup once a week with other parents, especially those who are stressed out. Have some good food and spend some time with all the kids and it will help support you, as well.

By relieving the major stresses that were in our life, our baby feels better and goodness, you have no idea how much better we feel, too! Try the same and see what happens. Even if it doesn't fix the waking-up problem, all of you will still feel a little more sane.

Also, I don't think that letting him cry it out will help jack shit, in this case anyway.


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## bakpak (Dec 19, 2008)

My daughter was a terrible sleeper as well, wanted to nurse constantly and even at 18+ months was still waking multiple times a night. When we took her in for her 18 month appointment, I was determined not to mention the sleep issue as I didn't want to hear criticism from the doctor. But of course he asked and of course my husband answered truthfully that she was very needy at night and we all slept terribly. I braced myself for fallout, but all the doctor said was that by that age (and probably the age of the OPs), children should be able to sleep through the night on their own. If they're not, it's usually just a bad habit and they need their 'clocks' reset. He suggested a few nights of Benadryl and all would be well. Well, I thought that was terrible advice, and ignored it for awhile.

Then, my husband was gone, I was wretchedly sick and exhausted and was getting to the point where I didn't think I could go another night without some rest. A friend offered some Benadryl and in desperation I tried a small dose before bedtime that night. She slept through the whole night and continued to do so for quite awhile!!!! I was so shocked! Seriously??? One dose of medicine was all it took?? Still not proud I ended up essentially drugging my child, but I can tell you it was the first night I slept more than 3 hours straight in over 1.5 years, my daughter wasn't hurt emotionally, and she definitely benefited from better sleep patterns, as did I.

I'm not advocating this approach, but after my experience, I tend to agree with the doctor that it's probably just a bad sleep pattern that your child's body has grown accustomed to, so breaking that pattern for a few nights is probably why CIO or other things like Calm's Forte work. By the way, I had lots of great luck using Calm's Forte when my daughter started the age of getting wound up before bedtime. The first time I tried it I was on a red-eye flight, it was 2:30am and she was STILL awake. Then I remembered the bottle of Calm's Forte I'd been carrying around forever. I gave it to her and she quieted right down and sweetly went to sleep. I agree that lack of sleep will just cycle and cycle making you and your child more miserable, getting less sleep each day.

Also, other things that might be waking up your child are thirst and or wet diaper. I found when I switched to disposibles at night I didn't have to change her and after it momentarily woke her when she peed, she'd fall right back asleep (which she didn't do in the cloth). Make sure your child has access to a drink. The other possibility that could help is white noise in your child's room. I think this works wonders. A fan, a white-noise maker, etc. One question, is there another adult who could get up with your child instead of you? A lot of times the child has a VERY different response to a father than a mother.

My daughter's almost 3 and still not the best sleeper, and we've had our ups and downs consistently through the years. The best thing lately appears to be the loud AC unit in our apartment. She sleeps through the night at least 3/4 of the time  And that....is a miracle.

Good luck!


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## trimommy2009 (Mar 22, 2012)

My oldest DS has ALWAYS been a horrible sleeper. He's 3 now and is just now sleeping through the night without help on most nights. It's exhausting, I know. My son also went through something similar when he was about 16 months old. My husband and I were actually laughing about it the other day, thinking about how we thought we would wear holes through the floors we had to walk him so much in the middle of the night! After about a month of this we finally decided to move him out of his crib into a big boy bed. We got the lowest bed frame we could find, with the smallest box springs. We let him help us pick out the mattress and bedding. I wanted to just throw a mattress on the floor, but my husband refused and said he needed a proper bed.  So we pushed the bed all the way up to the wall and put a rather large side rail up. We made his room somewhere he wanted to spend time during the day, reading, playing, naps, etc. We always had him start in his own bed at night. When he woke up around 11ish, one of us would just go lie with him and cuddle. Most of the time I fell asleep with him by midnight and crept out of the room around 3:00am. Sometimes I'd sleep all night with him. A couple times he would wake up and walk to our room and I'd pull him into bed with me. Whatever worked just to get some sleep.

I hope you find some suggestions that work for you, I know how hard it is!!! Good luck!!!


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## foodymama (Feb 5, 2009)

malayasmommy I'm very sorry you're going through this difficult time with your little one. Like some other Mamas on here mentioned I have a DD that has never been a good sleeper. I wasn't a good sleeper, my DH wasn't a good sleeper and DD inherited both of our genes! I did everything "wrong" with my DD from the time she was a baby until now according to mainstream Mamas and apparently some Mamas on here based on some really judgmental comments I've read. But it all comes down to doing what what works for you and your little one while maintaining as much sanity and normalcy for your family as possible. No one else. Just you and your family!

My DD is now 4 yo and she still doesn't sleep well. She has never gone to bed before 10:30pm without waking in the middle of the night and wanting to be up the whole time. Our family's bedtime is 11:00pm. I am a stay at home Mom so that works for us. We do our grocery shopping at 9:00 pm so that by the time we're done DD falls asleep on the way home. I get really nasty looks from judgmental people in the grocery store all the time because I have a little one out so late but that is what works for us.

I know first hand that when you are at the end of your rope you really wish someone would give you the perfect solution. I've been here looking for it many times but I rarely found the solution that way. I love Mothering and I've learned more invaluable information on here than anywhere but you know your child best and sometimes it's the smallest adjustment that makes all the difference. I'm rooting for you and I know you will be able to find a solution that brings peace to your whole family!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OP, my daughter did this for a couple months at a time, a couple separate times, up through 2 yrs old. We had put her in a twin bed on the floor in her own room at 13 months - we had coslept full time, part time, sidecarred, family bed, used a crib part time, so we had done it all. At 13 months she climbed into her crib with the rail up and we decided that was no longer a safe option so we got her into a mattress on the floor, and then shortly thereafter afeter she mastered the dismount, we put a box spring under it. So at that age I would lay with her until she fell asleep, then she would come and get me and either come into our bed (when she wasn't in a party mood and just wanted to sbuggle to sleep), or we'd go back to her room, I'd close the gate on her door (just a swing gate mounted on the door frame), and she'd do whatever the heck she wanted to while I slept - her room was toddlerproofed with toys and books, and so she could crawl around and play until she was ready to go back to sleep and she'd climb back into bed with me. After the first couple nights of being mad I wouldn't play with her, she'd just do her own thing for a while, and then come back to me. Id' have a water bottle and a light snack ready to go for her, and I would just zonk. It wasn't full sleep but it was decent - better than no sleep, or fighting with her to go back to sleep, or making her cry for me. I would say, "Mommy is going to sleep. You play and come to mommy when you're done." and just repeat that nicely but firmly whenever she would try to engage me. The only light in the room was a dim nightlight. As I said it took a few times before she realized it wasn't playtime, but then she would just be up if she needed to, and safe, and I could still get some sleep.

I laid with her to fall asleep into her 3rd year, and she is now 6 years old and goes to bed on her own and stays in bed all night. Those months in the thick of it seemed like it would never end and she'd have to bring me to college with her, but looking back now it's was such a short time, and is now a distant, happy memory because we worked with her instead of an "us vs them" dynamic. Gentle but firm nudges have always worked best for us in getting our kids where they need to be.

Good luck!!


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## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

My challenging sleeper (20mo) is just that...a challenge. I find that the best thing for him is to get him up and moving first thing in the morning, promote a restful nap of whatever length he attempts, get him out and running around in the sunshine in the afternoon (boost that natural melatonin, you know) and watch for his cues so we do bedtime in the middle of his sleep window at night. If we miss that sleep window--- and it's only about an hour long most days--- he will fight and fight and fight and it will take 3, 4, or 5 hours to get him down in the first place, and he'll probably be up every 2-3 hours after that. His sleep window happens just past his twelfth hour after getting up for the day. As long as we hit it, he will nurse or walk right to sleep and stay down for 10-12 hours. If he wakes in the night, his needs must be met IMMEDIATELY and with as little waking as possible (lights off, no talking, etc.).

And for the record, PP, my kids are in bed from 10ish to 10ish. Plenty of children don't have to conform to an artificial schedule because they are homeschooled by a SAHP, so they can be early risers or night owls or whatever their body's needs and personal biorhythms demand. Lots of kids will swap their days and nights during major growth spurts or revert to waking every few hours in response to disruptions in the home environment, and allowing them to find their own way is usually best. I read an article recently that summarized the issue thus: the obsession with "teaching" children to sleep is a phenomenon of the global north...and adult insomnia and sleep disorders are, too. Maybe it's just a correlation-- cum hoc ergo propter hoc and all that-- but you do have to consider the possibility.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

For the record, in my above post when I wrote my daughter was "mad" I wouldn't play with her, it was like her daytime mad when she'd throw a fit and then get over it and go off and play...not a "ignore your kid while they sob for you" kind. Just don't want any misunderstandings, there.....


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

Just wanted to chime in and say that I also have an atypical sleeper and I know how frustrating it is when most sleep advice doesn't apply to your kid. My favorite is when people tell me that "if he gets tired enough, he'll sleep!" HA! You haven't spent time with my child. You've heard about kids who would gladly starve themselves than eat what you've set out? That's DS and sleep. He absolutely will not sleep until he's ready, which is after lots of quiet time and lots of nursing.

He sleeps far less than is typical for a 19 month old. Midnight is not an unusual time for him to go to sleep, waking up at 8am. But he's healthy, he's happy, and it's my job to figure out how to cope within what is normal for him, not to change him when there's nothing wrong other than him not being a "good" sleeper.

OP - are you and your partner taking turns being up with him? Could you afford a nighttime nanny now and then so you can sleep? This won't last forever.

Blackout curtains have made a big difference in everyone's sleep around here. DS still wakes up the same number of times, but goes back down much faster and doesn't do the midnight marathon nursing anymore. Being outside as much as humanly possible during the day helps too, and might help especially in your case if he's got some day/night mixup going on.

Have you seen this article:

The myth of the 8 hour sleep

It may help you view the situation in a different light.

Big hugs. Sleep deprivation is no joke.


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## Jewels* (Sep 20, 2010)

I have been reading "sleepless in America" and it has changed my life. It is very against cry it out (as am I) and it has made the world of difference to me and my family. Just a thought.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Good morning! I have removed the posts that were advocating CIO. Please remember that Mothering does not wish to host the promotion of CIO or other harsh sleep training methods. Furthermore, the OP has said that is not something she wishes to do, so keep the advice topical.

Thank you!


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, especially with a 4 year old who needs you during the day!









My older DD was a night owl and I finally decided to let her stay up until 11-12 when she was finally tired enough to go to sleep. By 9 pm. I was exhausted and despite the fact that I hate using TV as a "babysitter", I started turning on Sprout while she had a snack and watched the good night show, lol. I have to admit that we often ended up watching the final lullaby and singing it together.
She also slept in our bed because it was easier.
I also made sure I checked for teething and gave her motrin when I saw molars coming in because that definitely kept her up and I don't blame her, I know I'm miserable if I have a toothache or headache and don't take something to get rid of it!
(homeopathic things never worked for her and I tried them all before resorting to motrin)

So here is how our sleep schedule then changed...
Watching the good night show then going to bed around 11-12. At first she woke up once to nurse but then that stopped. After only a little while, she started sleeping later and later and then usually ending up getting up in the morning at about 9:30-10 am.
I would get up by 7 and that gave me at least 6 hours of sleep plus free time to exercise (also important for my sanity!) and do stuff on my own before she woke up.
She took a 2-3 hour nap from about 2:30-5 or 5:30 every day.

So many people told me that I needed to put her to bed earlier and that she would not adjust to getting up on time for school and that it was a crazy sleep schedule, especially because of the late nap, but it never worked to do that!

When she was 3, she started a 2 day a week preschool that began at 9:30. It was a little hard to get her going and wake her up by 9 but it was only 2 days a week and she loved the school.
At 4 years old, she went 3 days a week and adjusted well to the 9 am wake up time even while still staying up until 10-11 pm by then.
She also continued the late nap time.

The summer before kindergarten I started getting her up by 9 and then 8 every day and her nap got earlier and shorter and by the time school started she was fine waking up by 7:30 to get to school by 8 am (all day kindergarten). She was tired the first few weeks but they had a rest time in the afternoon and she slept there for a couple months, eventually transitioning to no nap and an earlier bed time with no TV at all.

Every child is different, some are more inclined to stay up late and some are early birds, just like adults and you need to do what works for you no matter what other people say.
She is a great sleeper now, goes to sleep right away (still a little later than most kids, 9-9:30 pm) and never wakes up at night.

My suggestion is to let nap time get later and be as long as he wants to sleep and don't worry about it. Then he will stay up later with no problem and hopefully sleep better and longer.
Some kids refuse to go by our schedule but hopefully you can find one that works for him and gets you a much longer chunk of sleep because sleep deprivation is no joke, it affects every aspect of your life.

Good luck, I hope things work better soon!


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *callahansmama*
> 
> Also, I have seen firsthand how children who stay up late are affected as students and learners. If a 3 year old is going to bed at 10 or 11 or midnight, how will they learn to get up in the morning for school when kindergarten starts? I can see that being a very difficult transition and for me, having time to myself and with my partner in the evening, make me a better mother no doubt about it. I said I said it sounds obsurd to me and it does. I never did have a typical sleeper by any means until my son started falling asleep on his own with the confidence to know that mom and dad were busy in the kitchen or living room and that he was safe and loved in his cozy little bed. Before that - nightmare for 16 months.


LOL, Callahansmama! Imagining doing something different from what you do takes nothing more than a little assumption-checking, that's all!

For instance, while a late bedtime sounds absurd for you, it may seem perfectly natural for someone else, and that's not just because the babies are different, but perhaps because the parents are different, and maybe their schedule, needs, and priorities are different from yours.

My 7 month-old goes to bed at 10 or 11. This works for us for a couple of reasons. I'm going to point out your assumptions.

You wonder how a toddler going to bed at 10 or 11 would be able to get up for school. Assumption #1: not every child that age goes to school at 8:30 or whenever. Many people homeschool or skip kindergarten. Also, until recently, in Ontario, there was half-day kindergarten at that age, and half the children had kindergarten from 12:30-3:00 pm or something. So they wouldn't have to get up, would they?

Assumption #2: that a child wouldn't be able to adjust their bedtime. A 15-month-old doesn't go to kindergarten, so what makes you think they couldn't adjust to an earlier bedtime once they need to for school? I recently went on a trip across time zones, and so my son had to adjust his bedtime back 2 hours and then forward again 2 hours. It took him a couple of days to adjust, not months. So why would it be an issue what a 15 month old's bedtime was, if he needed it to be different years later?

You say an earlier bedtime works for you partly because it's nice to have time to yourself and your partner in the evening. Assumption #3: that every adult goes to bed at the same time as you. My husband and I are musicians and often work until 11 pm. Pre-baby, we went to bed at 1 or 2 am regularly. If my baby goes to sleep at about 10 pm, I have plenty of time with just the two of us before I turn in. Assumption #4: that people would want time alone with their partners. Sometimes, my husband and I just stay up and have family time before the baby goes to sleep, and then, when he does, we go to sleep, too. Having alone time in the evening with my husband isn't always a priority for us right now. We had 8 years together before the baby came and had plenty of alone time then; also, since we often don't work during the day, we can have sex in the afternoons while he naps, another thing that I bet is different than your schedule.

If I had a baby who went to bed at 7:30 pm, he'd wake up at 6:30 am or earlier! Because of my work schedule, I can't imagine anything more disruptive to our sleep patterns and need for rest. My husband and I sleep until 8 or 9 am, or later, and we have to sleep that late, or we wouldn't have the energy or focus to play Beethoven symphonies at 8 or 9 pm. My baby gets up at 9 am-ish, when we have to get up anyway, and he wouldn't sleep in that late unless we put him to bed at 10ish. This schedule allows everyone in my family to get the maximum amount of rest, which is not only a priority but a necessity for us to be able to work.

You see how it works?


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## MargieMama8 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm new, first post in fact. I'm an 'old school' Mothering mama from the 80s when I saw Dr. Sears and Dr. Gordon on The Home Show...way old, lol. I have 8 kids, 7-25 and 3 grandkids. I met Peggy O. at 19-years-old and finally felt justified in what I was doing with my son. It was literally like a life saver.

*What I'm going to say sucks, bad.*

The number one thing you can do right now to control/stop that crazed, lack-of-sleep anger that comes with this sitch...*ACCEPT IT*.

If dad ain't helping much. Once you reduce HIS anger, yours WILL go down by at least 50%, it's the natural law of things. He's not going to suddenly change after this happens night after night and if you love him and want to be with him, just accept the deal and go it on your own to a point.

I am not certain of the rules here and I promise, I am not trying to say you're wrong. I noticed you wrote 'then I go in there' after he's been fussing. Have you tried bringing him to bed with you? Or going to sleep with him when you're ready for bed? My only girl, I can't believe I'm gonna share this...she would only eat while we were both was sitting up, almost from day one. I couldn't sleep with her, nada. She would SCREAM if she was flat or covered in any way, period. The only way I got sleep was I put her in a little infant chair, on the floor, a huge pile of blankets on the floor for me and turned the TV on. I would hold her toes and she would sleep for 4-5 hours in that thing. My mom went ballistic, saying I'd ruin her spine (ha, it ruined mine instead), but she also thought I'd ruin her life by breastfeeding her, ha. You've probably already tried, but make sure there is NOTHING he can hurt himself on, make a huge cozy spot on the floor he can share and try it. To this day, all my kids talk about/still have a 'spot'. Piles of blankies, pillows and often mom or dad!

I wish I could help you. I don't miss that overwhelming despair that comes sometimes. Someone else wrote my moms favorite saying: *This too shall pass*. It really will. xoxo


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

margie, i hope you stick around! you must have lots of experience and 20/20 hind vision! lol my four kids range from 9 months to 17 years.

i agree with the advice to accept some things...but that is very hard to do. i decide every week to just accept that i can't get sleep and just go with the flow, but i fail every few days when i cry all day and snap at my family all day.


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## bakpak (Dec 19, 2008)

Along those same lines as what was just posted, I wanted to say that a lot of times your anger and frustration can be the main instigator for either winding up your child or maintaining the behavior you'd like to stop. And MargieMama8 is right, if your partner or someone else is giving you grief, that just fuels the fire. Remind your husband you need his positive support - you're on the same team. I've found that when I finally just give in to my child's needs and remind myself that my little one is just looking for love and support from me, bad patterns (be they sleep or behavioral) usually resolve themselves surprisingly quickly. A lot of times it just requires an adjustment of my expectations.

I'm also remembering that my daughter when through a similar pattern around that age where she'd wake up hungry in the middle of the night. Make sure your son eats a good filling snack before bed and even keep something in his room that you can hand him in the dark to munch on. I would keep the light off completely so he's not getting stimulated to get up and play.

You've gotten tons of helpful ideas here. I hear your pain and hope it resolves itself quickly for you. I remember searching the boards and reading frantically trying to figure out how to get some sleep and regain my sanity, but it's hard because every child, parent, and situation is different. Remember that you can't take good care of your child unless you're taking good care of yourself.









Becky


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## schoonersam (Sep 23, 2011)

Quote:


> I wonder if he might actually be OVERtired and that's what this is about...does anyone have any experience with that?


So I have DEFINITELY heard that and experienced a little of it myself.

My DD (13.5 mo. old) has had those midnight romps from time to time but her issue is bedtime and getting her down without raging hysterics - she's super curious and has a lot of trouble letting go of the day. We seem to have 2-3 days a month of it and we're in the middle of a stretch right now. I am actually having the EXACT same feelings you are about really really not wanting to CIO. I have heard SO much about the impermanence of it and it breaks my heart to hear it to and even to think about it - a friend suggested that I leave the house and have my husband do it, which is horrifying to me.

Anyway, back to the overtired thing, I have read (the no-cry sleep solution helped a bit) and also found that the best results (as far as getting dd to sleep) come when bedtime is between 8-9pm and trying to keep to a routine that starts like 30-45 mins before that. We have been doing a lot of traveling and her napping seems to be changing (an hour nap at 5:30pm does not bode well for an 8pm bedtime) so I've had a lot of trouble keeping that routine and have had some 10:30pm bedtimes (the last 2 nights).

Also, I'm just gonna second what LilyKay said above. I don't like to hear dd crying, but I do know now the difference - she's pissed, not terrified. And I try and do a similar thing - pick her up and shush/comfort and lay her right back down and stay there. Trying to communicate that my presence is there and she's safe and I love her, but crying won't make bedtime go away.

Thanks for posting this (it's gonna kick my butt into getting back into a routine) and good luck!


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## lilyrn11 (Oct 19, 2010)

I work nights so in the mornings when I come home I am exhausted and I need a few hours of sleep. I feed my 12 month old breakfast and then nurse him. I then go into my tent I have set up in my bedroom. Yes, I said tent. Its big. It looks ridiculous. I have soft bedding in there with some pillows. I also have toys in there. I take him in there with me and I zip us up. He can't get out. He can't get hurt. He is with me. I feel comfortable drifting off to sleep while he plays.He will come and nurse whenever he wants. We even sleep in there at nights when I have off. He enjoys it. I think it gives him comfort that he is able to play while mom is right there. Sometimes he will come and take a nap with me. He loves music so I will put on some nice soothing music. He likes the ocean nature sounds. All three of my kids have different sleep rythms. My daughter is a very early riser. Both my sons are night owls. Sometimes it is hard to take a deep breath and go with the flow especially when the reality is not ideal. I wish you and your family rest. I don't believe in CIO but I have gotten frustrated to where I have had to put my baby down in a safe place and walk away just to calm myself. Not really with my third but definitely with my second son. Also when the babies had any type of sleep issue it was "my fault" according to my husband because we "didn't just put the baby down in the crib like normal people". It really made me angry and it was not helpful to our situation. I told him how it upset me and how it really did nothing to help us. He agreed and tried to not use that against me. We try to be a team even when we are sleep deprived and frustrated.


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## MargieMama8 (Jul 9, 2012)

Wow! So many cool ideas! The tent thing is freaking genius! I wish I would have thought of that about 19-years-ago (w/Mr. Stunt Nurser).

PR-You must just be at your wits end. I hate when that comes, and stays. It's one thing when they do this stuff once-in-awhile, but this sounds like a nightly thing. I remember just sobbing when my husband left for work. I would beg for him to stay home, just so I could sleep...anything. He never would (I left his sorry butt, too). If you have ONE kid it's easier, but I had 4 at the time, so you can''t just go to sleep when the baby does. It was much easier with my 'second set' of 4, and a younger husband who helped (yup, I robbed the cradle of a man 10 years younger than me-that was 16 yrs and 4 baby boys ago-ha). Even when they help and say "Go take a nap," you end up reading or staying awake somehow because being alone is so welcome!

Another thing you could try is what they do at my Church. Kids go into the service with parents, but they are expected to be quiet-ish for that part of the day. Of course it's a good idea, but yeah, right. Anyway, they all have a Parenting Room that has one-way glass into the chapel and the microphone is on speaker into the room. There's other rooms like a breastfeeding room if you want to hide out while you feed, and one for kids that just can't be still or quiet. (or like mine, autistic and he gets antsy and needs to move (his 'stimming' is running and yelling a strange pattern, aka: his Happy Noise). But....dang, I totally get off-topic don't I? LOL, sorry!

OKAY!!! In the first room, the Parenting Room, the parent takes the child and sits on the floor, baby (after about 1-yr) or kid on their lap and that is IT. No playing, joking around, etc. unless a need must be met/feeding/really needs to play or move. Usually it takes a few times before they realize the fun stuff is in the chapel on Mama or big bro or sis lap! Crayons, paper, books, etc. WAY more fun. If you attend to needs only, no crying will be necessary-no talking, playing, etc. Maybe try the tent thing along with it. Baby ain't going anywhere!!!

I wish I could be there and let you have a few kick-butt nights of sleep : (


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
> 
> For the record, in my above post when I wrote my daughter was "mad" I wouldn't play with her, it was like her daytime mad when she'd throw a fit and then get over it and go off and play...not a "ignore your kid while they sob for you" kind. Just don't want any misunderstandings, there.....


Just wanted to clarify that I hope you didn't think I was grouping you into the CIO crowd with my earlier (now deleted? ) post. I think that's totally different.


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## graciegal (Jun 2, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AdinaL*
> 
> Good morning! I have removed the posts that were advocating CIO. Please remember that Mothering does not wish to host the promotion of CIO or other harsh sleep training methods. Furthermore, the OP has said that is not something she wishes to do, so keep the advice topical.
> 
> Thank you!


Wow, and now you've just driven me away. Talk about closed minded.


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