# James Dobson: spanking=good, Pagans=bad



## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I am glad the thread on this man on the Health Practitioners bd was closed. His views on spanking, as well as his anti-family bed, anti-gay and pro-CIO views, as well as his views on women in general, I think, are in conflict with what mdc supports.

I was disturbed to see all the pro-spanking views amongst posters on that thread.

Here is another reason I do not think I like Dr Dobson. Statement:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter7.htm

Quote:

2001-SEP-17: At about 13 minutes and 40 seconds into his Focus on the Family daily radio program, Dr. James Dobson said: "I also pray that the Lord will bring a national revival that will sweep through our nation and pull us back from the wickedness and the Paganism that's engulfed us in recent years"... On 2001-SEP-18, we faxed Focus, requesting a clarification of Dr. Dobson's statement. As of 2002-JUL-4, they have not yet replied. We do not expect a response. 16
So along with the above I mentioned, he is also anti-Pagan. I wonder how he feels about Buddhists and Muslims?

I am not sure if this belongs on this board or in Religious Studies!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quotes from Dobson:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/James_Dobson

Quote:

Views on corporal punishment and authority
Dobson advocates the spanking of children from 15-18 months to eight years old. According to Dobson, "pain is a marvelous purifier." (Dare to Discipline, p.6) He argues that "it is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely." (Ibid., p.7.)
*Post edited by moderator to comply with copyright rules. Please see above link for more information*


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

My MIL gave me his book "Raising Boys" and at first I thought it was ok. Then I got to the part about spanking and quickly realized I would not be reading anymore of this mans so called "Godly Wisdom".


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

He is a vile, vicious man. A hitter of animals and children. A hater of both as well I daresay.

I don't know what other thread here came up about him but he is absolutely 100% anti ap and there is no room for his beliefs whatsoever within the framework of attachment parenting.


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## RidentMama (Aug 18, 2003)

Okay, if we're sticking with the OP topic, I think that Dobson, like just about every self-professed Christian out there (myself included) needs to focus on showing love just as God shows love to us (rather than pointing fingers and singsonging "I'm better than you are" or "My God is bigger than yours"). I also believe that this is a value that everyone, regardless of religion (or absence of) should have, making this a better world. Not that it's going to happen, but we should do the best we can.

If we're rehashing the Dobson thread referred to above, let's please keep in mind the point raised that you don't have to agree 100% with the man on how to raise your child, but glean the ideas that you want to implement in your parenting style and leave the rest (and if you don't want to use any of his ideas, then don't). I like that he has family values, he believes in having a close bond with his children, and that we should not be raising slothful, self-centered children, but caring and considerate children instead. As I read the above posts, I just want to show that there is a different side to Dr. Dobson that I do not feel is being touched on in those posts.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Well, I agree you don't have to see eye-to-eye with someone's every belief in order to respect them, but this seems a little extreme. I mean, I'm sure this guy doesn't offer anything so profoundly wise that it's worth overlooking his advocacy of hitting babies. Not only does he encourage young parents to hit babies, *one-year-olds!* but he has to go on to clarify that the hitting must result in real pain.
uke

Hitler may have had some good gardening tips, but I would get my advice from another source.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

I am glad the thread was closed as well.

I don't think we CAN rehash thethread that DaryLLL is mentioning (see below). Not that I really want to anyway....

From MDC rules and regs...

"Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law."

and

"Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread. "

Personally, I do not care if anyone discusses Dobson or not. But let's try to to invite criticism or NAMECALL other MDC members in this thread.

Again, just my two cents....


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

This is an offshoot of a closed thread. I mentioned the other thread only in passing, as an introduction.

And why capitalize "namecall" when there has been no name-calling on this thread?









A point I would like to make is, if one is posting on a GD board, and is at all familiar with what that term means, why would one promote a book that endorses painful corporal punishment at all? Even to say, take what you want and leave the rest? Why not just read and follow books that only encourage gentle parenting and loving guidance and offer only non-punitive forms of discipline?

No matter how much this Dobson guy says he is respectful of kids, if he can endorse taking your kid out into a restaurant parking lot and wailing the tar out of him in humiliating public view, he does not respect children. Not the way I, or I think mdc, define respect.

My children, raised with respect, never misbehaved in a restaurant to such a degree that would even indicate they needed a spanking. So if this child (which I read about in an excerpt from one of Dobson's books ) is being raised so well, why is he behaivng so very "badly" in the first place? If one of my kids were going through a rambunctious phase, I would respect their growth curve and just not take them out to eat for a couple of months. Not spank them for their irrepressible childish energy. Or the boredom they must have been experiencing to be so "bad."

I just do not see the respect or understanding of child development here that I would require from any author I would take at all seriously.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Dobson=moron nuf said!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Please read this description of how Dobson beat his tiny daschund with a belt and crows he only won the "war" b/c he (Dobson ) is 200 lbs to the dog's 12.

And then compares it to how to raise your equally lightweight toddler!!!









http://nospank.net/dugan.htm

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with *destruction*. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud."


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Wow, I've listened to him many times on the radio and he never mentioned spanking or CIO. He always sounded so gentle.

I have to wonder if this is like the books and series from "Love and Logic" who initially advocated spanking but now do not support it. Unfortunately many churches still use the old series for classes that they hold and still teach spanking.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Dobson is a dangerous character, and I think its perfectly reasonable to have a thread, or multiple threads, that disclose the dangers behind his gentle honey voice.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
ITA and think it's a tad out of line to have another thread close and then restart one on the same topic to make th thread conform to YOUR opinion.

Sorry, mhl. This is a gentle parenting board. The statement of purpose endorses non-adversarial co-operative family living and discipline without punishment. I happen to agree with this purpose. That is why I post here. If you do endorse corporal punishment, I wonder why you post here?









Dobson obviously believes parents and children are adversaries and uses military terminology in his recommendations. I find this disgusting.

Honestly, I have known quite a bit about Ezzo for yrs and had only heard about Dobson in passing. Now that I have done just a tiny bit of research, I am in shock! I am literally nauseated. (Notice how I am using "I" statements and not namecalling. It is my hope others who post here can refrain from namecalling as well. No matter how tempting it is.)


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I agree with mamaduck 100%

There cannot be too many threads warning parents of the dangers of Dobson and Ezzo.

This is an ap board. There is absolutely no way in my mind I will understand anyone who comes here and feels they should get support for these two men. These men vilianize gentle discipline, make a mockery of ap, whip children and animals into submission, and encourage suppression of bonding between mothers and infants.

These men *are* vicious. They are not members here. They wrote books that advocates the whipping of babies, and I don't feel the least bit obliged to be sweet and tolerant about their "message".

I don't know why the other thread closed, but I don't think it is at all irresponsible to discuss the dangers of this man in the gentle discipline forum.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

When dd was 2, and we were having difficult times, lots of people (including our ped and my mom







: ) recommended "The Strong Willed Child". When I would insist that I would never consider corporal punishment, the come back was always "take what you can use from the book and leave the rest".

But, how can you do that? How can you appreciate and apply advice from a parenting "expert" who thinks it is acceptable--even important (necessary?)-- to hit children? And, it more than the actual advice to hit your child. To me, advocating corporal punishment is irreconciliable with respecting children. If he believes that it is acceptable and important to hit children, then he does not respect children. Period. I will continue to seek parenting advice from those who respect children at least as much as I do. Why not have the highest standards?


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Thanks for bringing this up! I did not see the other thread that you refered to, however, as a parent educator and leader of a local mothers group,
I do like to stay informed on creepy (bias descriptives omitted) male gurus. Lordita knows that Ezzo gets brought up at almost every meeeting I hold- by some unsuspecting mother who received the books from a friend. I wrote a scathing review of Ezzo's new birth book for my doula group, and do not for one minute see the problem with a thread discussing dangerous parenting practices. I will read up on him so I know some specific points/counterpoints.








T and edited to add, and perhaps will be later edited to delete: I am constantly haunted by the strange divisive line on this board that all boils down to religious belief. I certainly don't know how we will ever unite a world...


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Another user here agreeing with mamaduck!

Babies and children deserve better than a Dobson. It's time for people to wake up and truly look at the words he has written and said. Stop defending him because of the tone of his voice! Anyone remember how smooth and gentle Jim Jones sounded?

sunnmama, ITA. Great post.

thank you for starting this thread, DaryLLL. I learned a lot about Dobson I didn't know before and this information needs to be out there. Unfortunately, looks like some natural living parents hit/spank/physically discipline their children and I cannot figure out why Mothering Magazine or MDC would appeal to such a parent.

Has Mothering Magazine or Peggy O'Mara ever supported of hitting/spanking children? I don't think so. The philosophy of MDC and Mothering Mag has always been crystal clear on this issue. Physical acts against children are not attachment parenting, gentle discipline or natural family living.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I have never liked this guy. My moms read tons of books from him, also CS Lewis (I don't know much of the Lewis guy) but Dobson.. I honestly don't like him at all. I think his principles are not parallel to GD, they are way different. and his corporation, well, that's all it is... a corporation.

I don't like people that swear by the bible and interpret it when it's just HIS interpretation, it's not the one truth in the world, yet they make it sound like it is!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

From Dobson's Focus on the Family website (so there is no risk of 'old material'):

http://www.family.org/pplace/topics/a0025298.cfm

Quote:

Parents, for millennia, in virtually every recorded culture, have spanked their young children, when necessary, to teach them and to shape and mold their character-to ultimately benefit their children. Now parents are being fed confusing information-apples turned into oranges-by what appear to be anti-spanking advocates. Perhaps some discipline is in order for those guilty of fictionalized reporting.
So they advocate spanking researchers they don't agree with?

And this frightening bit:

Quote:

Question: There is some controversy whether a parent should spank with his or her hand or with some other object, such as a belt or a paddle. What do you recommend?

Answer: I recommend a neutral object of some type.
He goes on to talk about how the child might learn to flinch if the parent uses their hand. So Dobson suggests a 'switch or a paddle'.

http://family-topics.custhelp.com/cg...hp?p_faqid=779


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
As I said before I think there are some good points in his teachings and what I disagree with I disregaurd. The same way I do with sears.

MHL, I agree with the point that we have to take what we can use, and leave the rest, and also, I have not read ( much) about this man until just this thread. BUT I think it is also fair to judge a whole person by the sum of their actions- especially when it is something so important as abuse issues. I think we all have our 'litmus test' when it comes to people. For many on this board, it will be the treatment of children


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Here is more of his kids vs. parents viewpoint:

Quote:

Once children understand what is expected, they should be held accountable for behaving accordingly. That sounds easy, but as we have seen, most children will assault the authority of their elders. In a moment of rebellion, small children will consider their parents' wishes and defiantly choose to disobey.

Like a military general before a battle, they will calculate the potential risk, marshal their forces and attack the enemy with guns blazing. When those nose-to-nose confrontations occur between generations, it is extremely important for the adult to win decisively and confidently. The children have made it clear that they're looking for a fight, and their parents would be wise not to disappoint them!
http://www.family.org/pplace/toddlers/a0000024.cfm

That is his basic philosophy on children. 'like a military general' who attacks 'the enemy with guns blazing'.

And to parents, well, we must be 'wise' and not disappoint our kids. Give 'em a 'fight'!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

_Moderator's note: This thread is temporarily closed pending administrative review. Thank you for your patience. Please refrain from opening additional threads to discuss this topic.
_


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Let's keep in mind that this is the Gentle Discipline forum. I have not yet heard from Cynthia, who is the final word, but I am going to proceed as follows until she can advise:

Let's continue the discussion in terms of _whether Dobson's views fit into the Gentle Discipline framework._

Here are the forum guidelines:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.

In this forum we do not discuss the merits of physical punishment. The implicit agreement here is that corporal punishment is against our values.
Those who wish to support corporal punishment need to do so elsewhere.

*I do believe we can discuss whether James Dobson = gentle discipline without attacking each other and while abiding by the forum guidelines. Please try and keep that discussion on-topic or this thread will close.*


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm one who doesn't like him at all. (I'll even confess to hiding his books in deep, dark corners at library book sales.







)

sunnmama stated it perfectly on another thread about Dobson, IMO (which I can't find right now or I'd just quote her :LOL). The fact that he believes that hitting children is a valid (even necessary) component of child-rearing colors everything else he has to say about parenting. He comes from a place where the parent-child relationship is inherently adversarial and children are not worth of respect. That mindset, in my opinion, is thoroughly inconsistent with attached, gentle parenting.

ETA: Well, that's weird. I posted to one thread and it ended up another. So, maybe this is the thread where sunnmama imparted her wise words after all. If so, just scroll up a bit. :LOL


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

I just want to add that not only are Dobson's practices and beliefs about physical punishment dangerous - but so are his practices and beliefs about homosexuality - especially how it, according to him, appear in a young boy's behavior. His advice about how to diminish so-called "feminine" traits in boys is abhorrent.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

I don't like Dobson in general -- he's a bit too black and white on the discipline issue for my tastes. But the title of this thread annoys the crap out of me, I have to say. Dobson is a fundamentalist Christian. OF COURSE he thinks Paganism is a bad thing. OF COURSE he thinks homosexuality is a bad thing. Even the quote you posted attacked PaganISM -- not Pagans. He speaks against HomosexualITY -- not Homosexuals. These things are part of his religious belief, and the religious beliefs of millions of others. He has the right to express his beliefs, even if you disagree with them. And Religion has nothing to do with GD, AP or NFL, so why get all worked up about it on this board?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Sorry, Honeymoonbaby, it does have everything to do with NFL, AP, and GD.

Why?

1. Because Dobson links it to parenting and that includes parents who practice NFL, AP and GD (see 'Raising Boys')

2. NFL, AP and GD have *everything* to do with practicing and teaching tolerance.

We have the right to get 'worked up' as you say, just as Dobson has the right to live and preach in the anti-NFL world.


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

Well said, Playdoh.

I also think it's so important to remember the effect these attitudes (however you want to characterize them) have on our children.

Gay and lesbian teens have a tragically high rate of suicide.

Practices and beliefs such as those that Dobson promotes put these children at risk.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burritomama*
Well said, Playdoh.

I also think it's so important to remember the effect these attitudes (however you want to characterize them) have on our children.

*Gay and lesbian teens have a tragically high rate of suicide.

Practices and beliefs such as those that Dobson promotes put these children at risk*.

nak

Some would argue that the lifestyle itself (or whatever led them to choose the lifestyle -- and MANY believe it is a choice) puts those children at higher risk of suicide -- not other people's criticism of the lifestyle.

But that's a debate for another thread.

All I'm trying to say is that if you are trying to warn Christian parents away from Dobson, stick to criticizing his disciplinary advice, which has nothing to do with their faith. If you attack his religious beliefs (like Paganism=bad) and call them dangerous, you will only drive many on-the-fence Christian parents closer to Dobson because THEY will feel personally attacked. And they may decide it's okay to hit their kids because they'll identify GD as incompatible with their faith -- which it's not.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I have always enjoyed his radio programs, but will certainly not be utilizing his books or recommending them to anyone. I am a VERY spirited person, and i recently learned that my mother used his 'strong willed child' to help raise sensitive, passionate me







:. However, i think my mother on the whole was very loving and really tried to listen to me and understand me; i was not abused.

So, no i really don't think Dobson's ideals and 'wisdom' fit in with the goals of GD at all. His 'analogies' make me cringe, really. It is interesting to me that the MOST 'fundamentalist Christian' mother i know, who is part of an AP buddy group i am a member of elsewhere, will not read or use his books in her parenting.

If you want Christian, Dr. Sears is a very devout Christian, and explicates the use of 'the rod' so that we can see that it was a metaphore, and that no one should be beating their children with anything, hand or otherwise, but rather guiding and directing.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I am glad the moderator has pointed out that in this forum, we are all of the understanding (hopefully) that spanking is wrong. We are not here to debate spanking.

Regarding the military analogy:

I have a very spirited child, and what I have found, is that when you read a statement like Dobson makes about a child "calculating an attack" of willfullness "against" the parent, it starts to color the way you view behavior.

Dobson's interpretation of misbehaviour hardens a parent's heart towards the child, by telling the parent that the child is "against them" and is waging "war" and thus this makes a parent feel attacked, and defensive, against their own child.

On a certain level, Dobson's philosophy is wrong to me simply because it is so painfully *EGO CENTRIC*. Dobson over emphasizes the parent as the "target" and fails to realize that often children act defiant when they are insecure or unhappy or angry over something that has NOTHING to do with the parent.

In fact I would say that this is what upsets me most about his philosophy, if we take out the obvious issue of spanking.

Like a true narcissist, Dobson has parents believing it is "all about them" when it isn't, and thus desensitizes them to being open to recognizing when misbehaviour *is* about them!

And it doesn't take a degree in psychology to know that if a child is really angry with us, viewing this anger as a "call to battle" and getting defensive and launching back your own attack, is the roots of dysfunction. When people cannot listen and talk to their kids, they are laying the groundwork for their adult relationship too. You cannot expect a child to have a close and trusting relationship with you if you react to childish anger by seriously feeling threatening and attacking the child right back.

Dobson simply isn't, to me, a fully formed individual, and his philosphy reflects a limited, self centered, ego centric and narcissistic attitude towards
life. While spanking children and pets is the most obvious symptom of his insecurity as a leader, his entire philosophy is rife with a dysfunctional approach to authority.


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## JoshuasMommy (Feb 19, 2004)

Where can I find the other thread that people have referrred to in this one? I have tried to find it and can't. I would like to read it. Thanks, Tina


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Again, I have never read Dobson. I do not care to. And until I DO, I really don't want to spend my time demonizing him. I have heard good things from people I respect and bad things from people I respect.

I have never read Ezzo. I do not care to.

I have never read Growing Kids God's Way, and again, I do not care to.

IMHO, mothering all boils down to where OUR hearts are for and with our children.


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Please read this description of how Dobson beat his tiny daschund with a belt and crows he only won the "war" b/c he (Dobson ) is 200 lbs to the dog's 12.

And then compares it to how to raise your equally lightweight toddler!!!









http://nospank.net/dugan.htm

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with *destruction*. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud."


I have seen this Dobson anectdote before. All I can say is that he is one sick you-know-what. Shame on all those people advocating spanking on the other thread! Dobson is all about dominance and submission. His psyche is very twisted and all wrapped up in his own (imaginary) sado-masochistic relationship with God. He feels that "man" must obey and submit to God, so we need to teach our children (an apparently, dogs, too!) to practice by submitting to their parents. Sick, sad stuff.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

WHAT? People were advocating spanking on this board?!? I's so sad to hear that. People like EZZO and Dobson give Christian parenting a bad name. Not all Christians believe you have to beat your child into submission. Sears, as was stated, and there is another wonderful website called gentle christian mothers which is AP Christian parenting.

I also have a strong willed child. I know that spanking her would put a HUGE gap between us. I don't want that. I want us to be close and talk about things and I want her to make the same decision she would make if I were standing with her.

Children who rebel need something to rebel against.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
(Notice how I am using "I" statements and not namecalling. It is my hope others who post here can refrain from namecalling as well. No matter how tempting it is.)









noticed.







and i do understand that temptation well, myself.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

For the record I do not think Dobson= GD. .


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

JoshuasMommy, I PMed you.

I ask that no one discuss the other thread here. I only mentioned it as an intro, as this thread was an offshoot.

Thanks, y'all!

Another quote:

Quote:

To deal with crying, Dobson recommends: "Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."
In other words, "I'll give you something to cry about!" Can you imagine, a small child, red welts on their bare bum or thighs, crying in pain, fear, humiliation or anger and then the large adult yelling and applying fresh stripes to them, _until they stop crying_? Talk about escalation! Imagine a 2 or 3 yr old child being tortured that way, in the name of God's love? Imagine timing their cries and deciding when they have cried "enough," that the cries are no longer "real?" I feel so sick for children, and some of you, who were raised this way. I am so very glad my mom broke the pattern of corporal punishment in our family and my sister and I continued with the respectful parenting.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I fear I will just be restating what Sunamama and Heartmama have already said. But I think its really important. I don't think you can _"take what works and leave the rest"_ from a philosophy or approach that is grounded on *wrong* assumptions (twisted assumptions even) about childhood and family relationships. His very foundation for parenting rests on the assumption that parents and children are at odds with each other, and that children are inately evil. *Everything* he teaches rests on those assumptions, and is geared toward establishing and maintaingin parental dominance. If the roots of a philosophy are rotten, how can the tree bear any good fruit?

The most difficult part of adopting a GD approach is making the paradigm shift away from punative/advisarial assumptions about childrearing. It is pretty near impossible to practise respectful discipline without first making that paradigm shift. Dobson's materials do not support that shift in thinking. His methods and his assumptions point the reader in the opposite direction of GD. You cannot start with "_My child is out to get me,"_ and end up with respectful/gentle discipline.

Quote:

Some would argue that the lifestyle itself (or whatever led them to choose the lifestyle -- and MANY believe it is a choice) puts those children at higher risk of suicide -- not other people's criticism of the lifestyle.
What lifestyle??? We're talking about children, their identities, and who they feel attracted to. Often children who have not yet even had the nerve to talk to anyone about what they are going through. What lifestyle?

Quote:

His advice about how to diminish so-called "feminine" traits in boys is abhorrent.
Yes, I agree. Its so sad.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Who here has read Bringing Up Boys? I have not but found these reviews on amazon.com. (Disclaimers: obviously these are not my opinions. There were positive reviews as well on the site. I do not believe these reviews are copyrighted.)

Quote:

*Medically inaccurate and damaging*
Reviewer: A reader from San Francisco
I'm a pediatric physician who came by this book in a rather odd way.
Before I say anymore, let me assure anyone who is reading that the theories espoused in this book regarding child development and human sexuality are frequently flat-out wrong, and in many cases actually dangerous and damaging. In fact, do a simple Websearch on James Dobson - you will quickly see that he has been absent from the medical field for nearly 30 years and is not regarded as credible by any legitimate medical organization...
...many instances of ignorance - some of it truly astounding - that I came across in this book. In my 12 years of practice, I have never seen or read anything that was so out-of-touch with current research and medical realities. It was obvious to me that this book was not written by a real physician, but by a Falwell-type fundamentalist who put a "Dr." in front of his name in order to pass his religious and political beliefs off as fact. I am saddened that people...are actually lead to believe the discredited theories in this book; and I am concerned for the children who are subjected to this.

Quote:

*Christian Fundamentalism at it's Worst*
Reviewer...from Los Angeles, CA USA
Sexist, homophobic, and offensive. This book shows a complete disregard for science, research and psychology in favor of Dobson's own personal biases and Christian proselytizing agenda. If this is the kind of advice you're looking for, save your money. You can go to Jerry Falwell's church for free.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm sad to see the old chestnut trotted out that if you don't hit your children they will supposedly be wild and unruly. I'm very, very glad to see a reminder that MDC advocates gentle discipline, and praise for spanking is not welcome here based on the board's rules. This board came from Mothering Magazine, which has described itself as "a fierce advocate for the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents."

Although praise of spanking is not okay here, I have however seen tremendous support for moms wanting to break the cycle of violence by stopping spanking and even when those moms struggle to stop, they find support here.

Thank you DaryLLL!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I am glad to see this thread, I have never read Dobson's books so I didn't know how dangerous he was. I frequently tell expectant parents to go right ahead and burn any books that come their way with Ezzo or Pearl as authors, now, I have another to add to the list. I hate to see Christianity linked with baby hitting people- Thank God for Dr. Sears and Greg Popcak (for Catholics).

ITA with the PPs that I can't "take what I like and leave the rest behind" when it comes to such a fundemental wrong as hitting/belittling children.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

My parents were/are Dobson fans. I definitely think he fosters an adversarial mindset in parents towards their children. My brother and I were, honestly, pretty compliant as little children (but both rebelled like crazy in our late teens,) so we really didn't get spanked all that often, but recently my nephew, 4, spent about a year living with my parents after my brother was deployed. He is quite spirited, and watching them with him was rather eye opening for me, and helped me understand my own childhood much better. My experience was that they basically were unable to consider underlying motives for undesirable behavior -- they assumed he was challenging their authority, period. And their ability to think of or carry out other discipline strategies than spanking is extraordinarily limited.

My mother says stuff about how children are born "fallen," that is, predisposed to be little sinners from the start. When my son was like 12 months old, she interpreted his behavior in these terms! It upsets me to hear her talk that way.

I might add that both my brother and I have struggled with depression and self-esteem issues in adulthood, that we have each been estranged from our parents for years at a time, and that neither of us is religious.

ETA: I agree that he has a remarkably soothing, gentle voice on the radio.


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## JoshuasMommy (Feb 19, 2004)

I was spanked as a child and I DO NOT spank my son. I have a VERY hard time with the whole "spanking" thing. I have read the spanking arguments but I don't agree with them...any of them...Funny how no one considers spanking adults as acceptible! As a matter of fact it's called assault. If it so effective in deterring undesirable behavior than why don't we spank criminals? One of the things that Dobson and others like the Pearls talk about that I find really offensive is that they think they have the right to "force compliance" and "break the will of the child". They veiw children as some hostile force of nature that needs to be beaten into submission. The words they choose and the position they stand for makes me want to vomit. And who are they? What makes their beliefs and ideals so damn great? Oh yes, the Bible...I am sorry I don't buy it...I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD ADVOCATES SPANKING, WHIPPING OR ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO CALL IT. I mean no disrespect to anyone for using capitals. I mean no disrespect to any Christian Mamas. I am not challenging your belief in God or the bible. But this is how I feel to the core of my very soul. Tina


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

All I'm trying to say is that if you are trying to warn Christian parents away from Dobson, stick to criticizing his disciplinary advice, which has nothing to do with their faith. If you attack his religious beliefs (like Paganism=bad) and call them dangerous, you will only drive many on-the-fence Christian parents closer to Dobson because THEY will feel personally attacked.
It seems to me from reading Dobson's own words that HE is the one attacking other religions, not the other way around. Or do we PAgans not have the right to say "hold on there!" when we are characterized as bad?









I think religion is irrelevent in that we all want our children to grow into responsible functioning adults, but it's Dobson who made the equation between spanking = good and paganism = bad, not Darylll.

I think the thought process that ANY particular religion = bad is a dangerous one, and I see the results of such thinking on the news all too often. As pointed out above, how can there be anything of value in a philosophy built upon an inherently deeply flawed base? If there is the occasional useful idea in there, that useful idea can no doubt also be found in the writings of advisers who don't operate from a flawed and hateful premise. Why not look to them?

Like inaccurate information on breastfeeding, unless the light of reason, not to mention Christian and Pagan and Jewish and Hindu and Buddhist and ... LOVE, is shown upon it, it will go its merry way into people's minds unchallenged.

This Pagan family dropped spanking from the methods over a decade ago, with only the odd swat since then. DH once asked DD if she wanted a swat on the butt, she said "yes", she has acted on the knowledge that those are a Bad thing ever since. We found it to be INEFFECTIVE overall, to say the least. Besides which our toddler/preschool son ducking when being reached for was like a kick in the gut. That was So Very NOT the type of relationship we wanted with our child(ren).


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I have a very spirited child, and what I have found, is that when you read a statement like Dobson makes about a child "calculating an attack" of willfullness "against" the parent, it starts to color the way you view behavior.

Has anyone here read "Raising your Spirited Child"? I just started reading it and right off the bat it talks about how how our negative perceptions of our child's intentions, and the language we use to define them, alter our view of what is really happening. We start to see our children as sinister, calculated creatures when in fact they are only inarticulate and guileless creatures trying to get a point across with limited communication skills.
I really, honestly believe that the sort of language Mr. Dobson uses encourages child abuse, and I just can't see how anything else he has to say can be taken to heart once we realize that he looks at children with contempt.
If we are here, it means we place our children in the highest regard. I just don't see how any of us could make a hero out of someone who believes that G*d gives children spirits so that we can break them.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
... someone who believes that G*d gives children spirits so that we can break them.









He REALLY says that?


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotmamacita*







He REALLY says that?

I am sure it is implied just a little more subtly. Ie:

Quote:

Dobson advocates the spanking of children from 15-18 months to eight years old. According to Dobson, "pain is a marvelous purifier." (Dare to Discipline, p.6) He argues that "it is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."
Reader review on amazon of *The Strong Willed Child* (presented with disclaimers posted earlier):

Quote:

*A belt in one hand, a Bible in the other*--reviewer from San Francisco, CA
If anyone wonders why Dobson is virtually shunned by the entire medical and child development community, this book will answer your questions.

Comparing raising children to training dogs, Dobson relates with triumphant self-congratulation his battle against a small canine named Siggy (named after Sigmund Frued, a psychologist whom Dobson despises. That should tell you plenty -- what sort of man names his own pet after someone he loathes?) . This unfortunate animal is the subject of regular beatings from Dobson's belt, something Dobson relates with relish in the apparent belief that his readers will be impressed by a 200 lb man who belts 12-lb dogs into submission.

If you thought that was bad, wait till you see his recommendations for children. They include beating 9-month-old babies with switches (not on the diaper, but on the bare skin of their small legs, so it really hurts) and pinching children in their necks. No, I'm not making this up.

Of course all this advice is delivered with the usual quotes from Christian bibles, justifying any and all acts of violence, even against very young children, along with Dobson's self-righteous rationalizations for his behavior. [rant edited]... a broken and controlled child grows up into an unquestioning and obedient adult. Dobson's religion [sic] has no use for strong-willed people who think independently - he only seeks passive and obedient Christian soldiers who will swallow anything put to them...[rant edited]

Be smart. Read all the reviews and then figure out which parenting style is likely to produce a healthy confident child - the Dobson-supporters who approach their children with a Bible in one hand and a belt in the other, or those who give this book low marks as a dangerous endorsement of religion-endorsed child abuse.
Another review said to he recs switching a child to make it stay in bed, and leaving the switch in view as a reminder. Pleasant bedtime association, huh?


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

More reviews. My dh could have written this one:

Quote:

Adults are unhappy when they have been told their entire lives that they deserve to be hit, that they deserve disrespect. They may go on to successful careers, but they may never feel satisfied with their accomplishments, or may try to sabotage themselves in ways that fit with how they have been treated.
This one is really sad, maybe some of you can relate:

Quote:

Dobson is a well known, well respected man in the Christian community. He has the opportunity to encourage parents to seek out effective methods of *disciplining* children rather than simply punishing them physically for every little *perceived* rebellion. He chooses not to. Dobson labeled me "strong-willed" and gave my parents permission to hit me. Rather than seeing my God-given personality as a blessing to be used for His purpose, they viewed me as a being to be broken to their own will. So, they followed Dobson's advice, and they hit me as often as they felt necessary.

My relationship with my parents may never be repaired. They're convinced that hitting me was right and "Godly". They do not understand the humiliation and frustration and anger they created within me when they struck me. They don't realize that every day, as I parent my own two beautiful children, I must fight the urge simply to hit them rather than to *discipline* them actively and proactively, because hitting was the method my parents taught me with Dr. Dobson's blessing...It's heartbreaking that Dobson has managed to mar so many childhood memories and shatter so many parent-child relationships. Please, don't make the same mistakes! You and your child(ren) deserve better than that...


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dobson*
It's heartbreaking that Dobson has managed to mar so many childhood memories and shatter so many parent-child relationships. Please, don't make the same mistakes! You and your child(ren) deserve better than that...









Yeah.


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## RidentMama (Aug 18, 2003)

Wow, isn't it fun to publicly bash someone??







Feel the love in this room!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Renee, excuse me? "Fun?" Sylith is crying. "Love?" Yes, for our children, and our own injured inner children.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Listen, James Dobson was the "expert" of choice for *my* parents and their circle of friends. Everything Dobson recommends has been done to me and to my brothers. Spankings on the back of our legs. Spankings until we stopped crying (or passed out first, as in the case with my bro). Instrument for spankings left out on the dresser all night to keep my 2 yo. bro. too frightened to get up and wake my parents. Threatened, frightened, and heaped with guilt re: sexual issues. Everything we did that was even mildly annoying was attributed to our "sin natures" and our desire to "rule over our parents."

So you know what? I'm entitled to bash the guy. I'm entitled to post in this thread and issue warnings about this guy being dangerous. Go ahead and remind me all you want that this is my "opinion." Just remember that is also my experience.

The fact that he seems like a nice guy, that he has a soothing voice, that he is respected in the christian community -- all that makes it more imperitive to expose his teachings for what they are. The fact that he is so mainstream and so well "respected" makes him more dangerous than Ezzo or Pearl.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Mamaduck and others have said it better than I can, but I want to add my voice to this thread. I think it is very important to have these sorts of threads occasionally because Dobson is often recommended to parents when they are going through a troubled spot with their children. I also think that it is appropriate to address Dobson's interpretations of the Christian faith as encouraging active dislike of other religious practice and rigid sex roles as false.

I think that it is patently dangerous to say that Christians with this interpretation may publish their views, but gay folks (regardless of religious beliefs), Pagans, and those with egalitarian partnerships with their spouse must shut up or be called religious bigots. (Silence = Death comes to mind.)

In this case, I believe that the danger to children's minds and spirits is increased by Dobson's associations of painful punishment with G-d-given edicts.

I've shared this before, but will do it again: My brother had a difficult and willful older child. While he believed in gentle discipline, he found himself yelling at the child a lot, threatening loss of treats, thinking of moving to a different model since GD wasn't working. He was consistent with his wife in addressing the obvious defiance this child offered. The child had constant problems at kindergarten because she defiantly refused to participate as required.

Even so, my brother read "The Strong-Willed Child" and was completely sickened. He inserted a warning in it when he returned it to the library.

They had my niece assessed by a reputable psychiatrist, oppositional defiant disorder they thought. Nope. My niece has selective mutism. When anxious she cannot talk, often cannot move. The more the adults escalated the situation, the worse it became. I shudder to think of the damage if my brother had followed Dobson's advice.

The final thing I want to share is some advice that DebraBaker posted here a while back regarding Ezzo. She warned us to be careful to watch our parenting while reading it because it is difficult to keep it from affecting us toward harsher parenting even if we disagreed. Oddly, I found this to be true.

So, while normally I'm totally in favor of "take what you can, leave the rest" I I think that Dobson, Ezzo, the Pearls, the woodshed people, and the like simply may require more caution with this approach.

I know that "Playful Parenting", "Raising Resilient Children" and "How to Talk..." affect my parenting in positive ways even when I'm not using their "techniques," so the opposite effect reading pro-spanking literature seems possible.

I'd like to add that I'm very grateful to this forum for the loving examples I read about. I find it very encouraging.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

You know what I love about MDC? I love it that I am challanged to research and learn things I might not have otherwise. I still feel that it is WRONG for MDC to allow this thread being that the base of it is IMO religion and how pegan mothers see spanking connected to Christianity. I sure hope that the members here can see through that. Christian mothers are not less aware or loving that mothers of any other belief or religion. It's quite unfair to assume or tiptoe around the idea that all Cristian mothers and fathers are spankers. It's also very unenlightened.

That said I took it upon myself to look into the advice of Dobson more seriously. I do have one of his books handy that I have (sort of) been reading. It's a daily devotional but i'll admit I haven't picked it up in a while. I searched through the whole book looking for advice on discipline. I found ONE page. That's alot less emphasis on spanking than it look like here. However I was disturbed on the lax attitude and rather put of. That's a shame because the rest of the book is great. I've read nothering else that was not great advice and all about respect and love. Had I not founf this page I would have probably assumed that with age his ideas had mellowed and maybe he had seen the error in his ways. I still think he might have(being that he talked SO little about it.).

"You may be unsure about the notion of spanking your kids. You've heard that argument that argument- spanking will turn your kids into violent adults. We believe otherwise.

There are conditions to proper use of spanking, though. Reserve it for moments of willful defiance only. Never spank a child when you areout of control. Spank only on the bottom (NEVER slap a child or jerk his arm which can cause serious injury). We most certainly DO NOT advocte indiscriminate paddling of your children. Child abuse is a national tragedy!

He's what killed it for me: "Yet there are times when a short session over a bent knee- applied with care, wisdom, and a sensible explination- will benefit your child. AFTER ALL, IT IS SCRIPTURAL."

That is the type of crap, that is nearly universally used to make parents believe that it's scriptural and the only acceptable form of discapline in Christian families. I think those of us who read the bible know full well that MANY things can be translated for what they are NOT. God does not insist that we beat our kids. He does insist that we guide and direct them on the right path. There is nothing physical about that. I am pretty disappointed in Dr. Dobson after reading that. I'm glad to know that Dr. Sears is a Christian and that he advocates true Godly morals intertwined with natural/Ap parenting methods.

BTW, another posted said something about our culture not approving of spanking adults. I've heard alot about spousal discipline/corpral punishment lately!! What the heck is that about>?


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

mhl, we've had a great deal of discussion in this forum about gentle Christian parenting... I think we are very concerned with helping mamas of any faith find the gentle path within thier religion. I dont think this thread, or any other, assumes that Christian parenting requires spanking, just that there are factions within Christianity that associate the two. So because Dobson is part of the corporal punishment faction, and therefore not a good model for GD, we hope to bring to light his values in this matter.

Make sense? That's why I dont read this thread as Christian-bashing in any way.

Is pegan something different than pagan?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

Is pegan something different than pagan?
Vegan+Pagan=Pegan? I had the same question, my hearts light!

ITA pamelamama, and I do not associate all Christian parenting with a pro corporal punishment philosophy. Unfortunately, Dobson is a prominant Christian author and speaker who does advocate a horrible view of children and I'm grateful MDC is a place to speak out against him.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

my~heart...with all due respect, I don't see this thread as religious in nature at all.

Most people who've been around these boards are aware of the scandalous and heartbreaking abuse touted as "discipline" that is advocated by certain so-called "christian" parenting experts (Pearls, Ezzo, Growing Kids Gods Way, etc). However, neither I nor anybody else around here with a brain jumps to the conclusion that all Christians are like that, or even that Christianity itself breeds such jerks.

There are plenty of gentle Christian mamas here, who participate in, or even run gentle parenting sites for Christians. I have heard enough pain from the Christian mamas when atrocities such as whipping babies are done in the name of their god and their holy book to know that these idiots don't represent christianity any more than terrorists on a jihad represent the peace loving followers of Islam.

I'm not ignorant enough to think this is something unique to christianity. it just so happens that the fundie religion of choice in this country is christianity. In another country, it might be the fundie Muslims writing crap that offends most peace-loving practioners of Islam. Perhaps in India, there are minorities of Hindus who warp their teachings to justify abuse of children. This happens everywhere, in the name of many religions, and is certainly not unique to christianity.

And personally, I have a slightly different take on his criticism of Pagans. IME being rasied Christian, the concept of "Paganism" as an established religion is largely unheard of. Rather, the term "Pagan" is used as a catch-all phrase for those without religion (or more specifically, an established world-religion). Heck, I didn't even know Paganism was practiced by anybody until I came to these boards. So I would not put so much anger into his "anti-Pagan" comment. He almost certainly wasn't directing it just at "real" Pagans, but to anybody who, in his own warped opinion, is not on the "right path". An ignorant use of words, of course, but I don't think he was limiting his derision to just you Pagans. And I think focussing on that takes away from the more serious issue of the advocating of abuse, and his ill-founded, ignorant views on the nature of children. Given that, it's no surprise that he's intolerant of many other groups, not just children, having inherent rights.

If you can hate children, who else *wouldn't* you hate?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Piglet, I wish the whole community here, let alone the wider one of parents, agreed with you regarding Christian parents. Unfortunately, I have to say that I frequently get a feeling that many people (here and elsewhere) ASSUME that Christians parent the way Ezzo, Dobson, and the rest advocate.

In terms of "paganism" I agree that he was using the word the way many do -- as a general term for those without religion, not as Pagan -- the practice of Paganism. Note the different that the capital letter makes. Its similar to the different between catholic (one church) vs. Catholic (generally refering to the Roman Catholic church). Unfortunately, it is difficult to hear a capital letter in spoken speech.

Going back several pages to an earlier post here. Just to point out the C.S. Lewis was a British Christian theologian. He wrote fiction (best known in the US for The Chronicals of Narnia) and theology. He did not, as far as I know, write anything at all on parenting.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

l


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Going







T for a moment:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
OTOH, You have to take into account that for any religion you choose that releigion because you believe that it is the right one.

Disagree. Many, if not most people do not choose ther religion at all. It chooses them. Most of the time, they go with the one they were born into. Other times, they search and search til one clicks. It doesn't have to be "right," (ie: the One True Religion TM) it just has to feel right for the particular individual. My own belief system is an open and changing medley of faiths. I do not think my system is right for everyone.

Quote:

I've yet to hear a Christian educator of any kind endorse paganism.
They may not endorse it, but more and more clerics are interested in ecumenical respectful open minded exchange of ideas.

Back on topic:

Quote:

I think it would be every bit as effective to disguss Dobsons parenting ethics without involving his religous background.
You are welcome to your opinion, but since I understand he quotes the Bible on almost every page of his books...his religious background is hard to avoid.

Quote:

Bad advice can come from anyone of any faith.
Or no faith. Here we agree.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Going







T for a moment:

Disagree. Many, if not most people do not choose ther religion at all. It chooses them. Most of the time, they go with the one they were born into. Other times, they search and search til one clicks. It doesn't have to be "right," (ie: the One True Religion TM) it just has to feel right for the particular individual. My own belief system is an open and changing medley of faiths. I do not think my system is right for everyone.

We are jsut going to have to disagree on this one and that's OK!









They may not endorse it, but more and more clerics are interested in ecumenical respectful open minded exchange of ideas.

I have not seen or experienced this but It's been a while since I felt the need for church or clergy.









Back on topic:

You are welcome to your opinion, but since I understand he quotes the Bible on almost every page of his books...his religious background is hard to avoid.

It is hard to avoid but I just want to remind everyone that the Bible can be misused and misinterpreted and by that so are the peopel who follow it's teachings.

Or no faith. Here we agree.

HOLY MOLY! WE AGREE??????????







:


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*

I was disturbed to see all the pro-spanking views amongst posters on that thread.

wait a minute... people on this board think spanking is ok or good?







Really?

awww, shee... guess I shouldn't come into a 4 page thread and ask a silly question about the 1st post


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

rainbow-

I have here and there, seen a few posters to this board who think spanking is ok.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Not quite sure, I may have missed it all together but I enver saw anyone down right advocate spanking. It wouldn't be appropriate here for sure!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Just want to point out, my hearts lite above used the quote function incorrectly and combined her words with my own, so it looks like almost the entire post is my words.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Sorry about that! I haven't figured that one out yet.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
Sorry about that! I haven't figured that one out yet.

Angela, you want me to help you fix it?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I think it would be every bit as effective to disguss Dobsons parenting ethics without involving his religous background.

Well, he started it. what i mean is, he justifies his horrible ideas by saying that it's the christian way to raise a child. instead of objecting to people discussing that aspect, it might be more useful for christians who don't advocate violence against children to speak up and make it clear by example that dobson is a fringe character and that most christians don't view discipline thisway. i'd love it if that were to happen, because sadly,my personal experiences have led me to think the christian approach to child discipline is about violence and control.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

MOD REQUEST!

Can we please revisit our posts in this thread and reword so as to critically evaluate Dobson's theories, writings, etc, instead of his person. It's productive and valuable to discuss and disagree with someone's philosophy and engage in an intellectual discussion, but attacking someone personally is against our shared GD values and also a violation of board policy.

Thank you for your help in this matter!!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadie_sabot*
instead of objecting to people discussing that aspect, it might be more useful for christians who don't advocate violence against children to speak up and make it clear by example that dobson is a fringe character and that most christians don't view discipline thisway. i'd love it if that were to happen, because sadly,my personal experiences have led me to think the christian approach to child discipline is about violence and control.

There are probably as many different "Christian Parenting" philosophies and approaches are there are Christians. Or at least as many as there are, say, Muslim parenting approaches, or any other religion. Realize that both Dobson and Sears are coming from the same religious grounding. That should say something about the huge differences that can occur from the same base. It is unfortunate for those of us who advocate a much gentler approach that some the more "outspoken" Christian parenting gurus have been those who are more authoritarian. Many of us are truly sickened that they can twist the Bible in such a way as to justify their beliefs. But then, Christians have, unfortunately, been very good at using the Bible to justify all kinds of truly awful actions throughout history. I guess it goes to prove the axiam "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

There are many Christians on this board, and more who don't hang out here, who vehemently disagree with the sort of nonsense that Dobson, the Pearls, and Ezzo pronounce as "scripturally sound". Including, obviously, me. Please don't judge an entire religious group by three individuals. All religions have their "fringe element". It is always inappropriate to judge the entire group by those individuals.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i just read through the first page of this thread...

thanks for posting this, Daryl. i had never heard of this guy until now.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
There are many Christians on this board, and more who don't hang out here, who vehemently disagree with the sort of nonsense that Dobson, the Pearls, and Ezzo pronounce as "scripturally sound". Including, obviously, me. Please don't judge an entire religious group by three individuals. All religions have their "fringe element". It is always inappropriate to judge the entire group by those individuals.

I have not seen anyone even slightly suggesting we are judging all Xtians by one man here. In fact, again and again women have made statements quite to the contrary.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

T

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I have never liked this guy. My moms read tons of books from him, also CS Lewis (I don't know much of the Lewis guy)

Please don't conflate the Christian writer C.S. Lewis with this Dobson fellow. C.S. Lewis was the author of the well-known children's books _The Chronicles of Narnia_. He also wrote books for adults on Christian themes, including a beautiful novel based on the myth of Cupid and Psyche, _Until We Have Faces_. He was a professor at Oxford of medieval studies and a public intellectual who spoke widely on Christianity. As far as I know, he never advocated spanking. He had two step-children but I don't think had much of a role in their upbringing.

He was a good friend of J.R.R. Tolkien, author of _The Lord of the Rings_--who was also a very serious Christian (Catholic.)

A Hollywood movie was made about C.S. Lewis called Shadowlands.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I have never liked this guy. My moms read tons of books from him, also CS Lewis (I don't know much of the Lewis guy)









T Is it a different author from the _Chronicles of Narnia_ guy?


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Can we please get off CS Lewis? He has nothing to do with this thread.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
It is unfortunate for those of us who advocate a much gentler approach that some the more "outspoken" Christian parenting gurus have been those who are more authoritarian. Many of us are truly sickened that they can twist the Bible in such a way as to justify their beliefs.

for people like me, who have had more exposure to the violent forms of christian discipline than to gentle discipline from christians, grounded in their faith, it's good to know this.

Honestly, it seems to me dobson just uses his religion as a desperate (but unfortunately, effective) ploy to gain credibility. and inadvertently gies other non-violent christians a bad name.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

The problem is not that Dobson is a Christian, it's that he is claiming that child abuse fits the Christian message. Nobody here is saying that this is true, they're saying it's exploitative.
I can see how the Amazon.com reader review of Dobson's book that was quoted earlier could be offensive:

Quote:

...a broken and controlled child grows up into an unquestioning and obedient adult. Dobson's religion [sic] has no use for strong-willed people who think independently - he only seeks passive and obedient Christian soldiers who will swallow anything put to them...
...However, my interpretation of that quote was that "Dobson's religion" is not the same as the Christianity that our friends and neighbors are practicing (we hope). _Every_ group has its extremists and bullies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Please don't conflate the Christian writer C.S. Lewis with this Dobson fellow...

Lewis is a perfect example of a Christian writer who's work is welcome in just about anyone's household, regardless of religious beliefs. Christian themes are the undercurrent in all his books for children, and there's no contradiction in the way he portrays God while treating his young characters with dignity and guiding young readers *gently* through moral lessons. This is a perfect example of a Christian who has used his clout in the religious community to encourage gentle, loving discipline: the kind of discipline that encourages kids to think for themselves and to understand why they should and shouldn't do certain things. Lewis was a Christian intellectual, a very insightful and philosophical man who wasn't afraid of debate and free exchange of thoughts. I'm sure to him there didn't seem to be any conflict between being a Christian and being an independent thinker. But it seems to me like this Dobson guy believes that the only way to bring up new crops of young Christians is to dominate them emotionally, physically, and intellectually. I'm not a practicing Christian, but I grew up in a Christian home, and I just can't imagine how someone so immersed in this religion could forget what a rebellious, indominable, free-thinking, _willful_ person Jesus Christ was.

To the people who keep saying that they disagree with some of Dobson's teachings but find others valuable, I'd just like to remind them that when they pay for one of his books (even if they stay away from chapters that deal with punishment) they are lining the pockets of a man who instructs frustrated young parents to hit even infants in their cribs.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*

Some would argue that the lifestyle itself (or whatever led them to choose the lifestyle -- and MANY believe it is a choice) puts those children at higher risk of suicide -- not other people's criticism of the lifestyle.

This honestly doesn't make sense to me. Care to explain it a little more clearly? If gay teens are raised in an atmosphere of acceptance and love, doesn't it follow that they would be less likely to kill themselves than those treated poorly and with hatred? My gay friends were not sexually active when they were teens, but they knew they were gay and one of them had parents who spoke very negatively about it. He had a lot of work to go through before he could accept himself for who he was, and was depressed and suicidal as a teen.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

T

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Can we please get off CS Lewis? He has nothing to do with this thread.


If you are actually making a request, then my answer is no. I'm sorry if my off topic response upset you. I've edited my post with the off topic emoticon. One poster mentioned him in a negative light, and I want to know who he is and if he has anything to do with Dobson. *You* don't have to respond to this question if you don't want to, but I'll respond in the way I see fit.


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amywillo*
This honestly doesn't make sense to me. Care to explain it a little more clearly? If gay teens are raised in an atmosphere of acceptance and love, doesn't it follow that they would be less likely to kill themselves than those treated poorly and with hatred? My gay friends were not sexually active when they were teens, but they knew they were gay and one of them had parents who spoke very negatively about it. He had a lot of work to go through before he could accept himself for who he was, and was depressed and suicidal as a teen.

Thank you Anywillo. I didn't even know how to begin a response to this remark. Sigh.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

It's OK, Amy. You must not have read to the end of the thread before posting? Because Captain Optimism answered your question before you asked it, right before your post!

If we are just contrasting a "good" Xtian with a "bad" one, I don't mind it so much. But Lewis was not a child discipline expert, just an author of Xtian themed books for adults and children. I think Sears is a more apt subject to compare with.

Whatever!


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burritomama*
Thank you Anywillo. I didn't even know how to begin a response to this remark. Sigh.

Me, too.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

I guess I qualify as a 'reformed spanker,' since I have spanked my kids three times but decided a few years ago that nothing-not even life threatening behavior like running into the road-would result in physical punishment for our precious little ones. I was just reading through this very long thread and thinking that I never felt so UNCHRISTIAN as those three times I hit my kiddos. To me spanking=fear, anger, humiliation...I just don't get how Dobson and others link Christ with physical violence. Spanking is all about the powerful using their power to abuse and oppress the powerless. How does this fit with "blessed are the meek"? It's a rhetorical question, BTW, just a vent.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*

If we are just contrasting a "good" Xtian with a "bad" one, I don't mind it so much. But Lewis was not a child discipline expert, just an author of Xtian themed books for adults and children. I think Sears is a more apt subject to compare with.

Whatever!









I don't think Dobson is a child discipline expert, either. Just an opinionated man with questionable credentials. The reason I would compare/contrast the 2 is because they both had the oppurtunity to use their influence in their religious communities and both did very different things with this influence. He never would have come up except that somebody seemed to equate the 2 to eachother just b/c they're both Christian writers...


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I should have said "expert."


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