# must-read article for everyone who visits this forum



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

*Everyone, please read this article!!!* I know it's an old one, I haven't seen any sleep articles lately in Mothering mag, but I'll keep looking and see if I can find one....

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ep/fleiss.html

Quote:

Many of the so-called "sleep problems" that parents report in their children are actually the result of rigid and unreasonable expectations that are based on unnatural and unrealistic myths about how children are supposed to be. The incorrect advice on sleep that is found in so many childcare books is based on such expectations.

Babies, however, cannot be tricked into yielding to unreasonable expectations. The baby's refusal to cooperate with feeding schedules and rigid "training" indicates that these expectations are unnatural and don't meet the baby's biological needs.


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## manda (Jun 2, 2004)

Great article!

I also found reading the book _Our Babies, Ourselves_ helped give me more realistic expectations about sleeping. Other cultures seem to handle it so much more level-headedly than Americans do.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Here are some more I found, but not at Mothering:
http://www.naturalchild.org/articles/sleeping.html

http://www.naturalchild.org/tine_the..._vs_habit.html

Quote:

The wants of a well-adjusted human being are his needs. It is when his needs are not fulfilled that his wants become excessive in the attempt to fulfill suppressed needs.

...

Hymes, in his book Child under Six, describes a habit as an action which can easily be broken. "If you run into any major difficulty at all," he writes, "Beware! You are probably not dealing with an old outworn habit. The chances are that you are tampering with a human need."

...

For some strange reason we tend to think that to satisfy a child's need is to make it into an unbreakable habit, where in truth the exact opposite is true.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I didn't read the article, just the quotes, but I agree anyway.







I know that I'm still the same as I ever was; never wanted to sleep, always felt I was missing out on something. Was the last in the house to go to sleep, last at the slumber party to close my eyes. Still am! It's just who I was, and who I am.

I'm very very glad my mom never imposed her will on me by "training" me. Who knows who I'd be if it weren't for all those late nights?









Just looked it up, and I've been staying up late enough to watch Saturday Night Live since the day before I turned 6. Yep, since its premiere.

(for those of you who might be aghast, an innocent kid doesn't even get that the jokes are dirty sometimes unless adults are acting like they're dirty. i had a whole different understanding of many SNL sketches than their reality...once I started watching re-runs as an adult I could still remember what I thought they were about, and I was shocked that the sketches were so naughty!)


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

bump


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## smilnmom (Aug 20, 2003)

Oooh thank you I forwarded that to so many people! Good article.. much needed.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
*Everyone, please read this article!!!* I know it's an old one, I haven't seen any sleep articles lately in Mothering mag, but I'll keep looking and see if I can find one....

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ep/fleiss.html

This article makes ALL KINDS of claims! Something is not true just because the author says so - where is the data?

Please understand, I am TOTALLY AGAINST using CIO in any form - my 1yo wakes up several times a night and I am right there with him. But, this article is only going to appeal to those who already use the methods described - it has not data that is going to win over someone from the other side, or even someone on the fence :

Quote:

Even with the best of intentions, ignoring children leads them to feel abandoned. The result will be insecure, unhappy children. You cannot "spoil" children by responding to their cries. "Spoiled" children are those who don't know what to expect from their parents. They are often alternately punished or praised for the same activity at different times.

Quote:

While babies may learn to cry themselves to sleep, this practice also seems to have the undesirable effect of teaching babies that they cannot trust their parents to respond to their needs. It also inculcates low self-esteem. Children who cannot trust their parents are emotionally unbalanced. They are abandoned children. To some degree, they will be psychologically impaired and may manifest this by being clingy, needy, whiny, and demanding.
Hey, it's not as if I disagree that leaving my child to CIO could lead to them feeling more insecure and affecting them long-term, but there all kinds of claims here that are not backed up in any way.

The studies on this topic may be limited, but at least quote the ones that exist to support claims.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Right on! I have read it before, and I love it! Thanks for pinning it.


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## awnja (Sep 1, 2004)

I have to agree with Kay.
I know a woman who did CIO because that's what she was taught was best. Her kids have grown up to be well adjusted, secure, independent and nurturing adults. Her son is LITERALLY a "rocket scientist" and is politically active and her daughter is a graphic designer and figure skater who works with special needs children in her spare time. They come home to be with their parents on a regular basis and have fond memories of their childhood.

I feel bad for this mother when I think of her sitting outside her baby's door, crying, waiting for the baby to stop screaming and go to sleep. Its terrible that she thought she had to do this. I'm sure it was awful for mom, dad and baby and its a wacked practice... but the damage tends to get exagerated. It doesn't destroy a child. There are worse things. For example, if parents were to divorce over cosleeping, that would affect a childhood more than CIO, in my opinion.

Anyway, what Kay said. We should just let people know its not necessary and what the alternatives are. Lets see some studies! Beyond statistics too (good stats tend to find little proof against any sleep arrangement). I'd love to know if, say, GW Bush cried it out.. or if Ghandi did (doubt it).. or Trump.. or Madonna.. or MLK.. That would be interesting.

Speculations that are so easy to argue just hurt the case against CIO.

Julie


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## sovereignqueen (Aug 5, 2004)

I posted a link to this forum in another group I belong too, when a bunch of the moms were doing CIO. The mom I intended it for never responded, but another mom was so excited about the linky. She was happy to know that she *didn't* have to CIO and *could* pick up her baby when she cried.


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## musemama (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi! My daughter Fenix is almost 6 months old, she's breastfeeding and wakes up a few times each night to feed. So often I catch myself wondering if I'm doing something wrong, why isn't she sleeping through the night? So much data out there is based on formula feeding, and so many other parents, doctors and society in general put out expectations for sleeping straight through.

I'm new to this forum, but it's refreshing to see the other side supported here.

I have yet to read the article in question, but I also agree with Kay that without good support, a strongly opinionated article doesn't do much to convince me what's best as a parent. Sometimes I react emotionally, but upon consideration, I need proof.

(By the way Kay, my dd is named Fenix - the middle English spelling)


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musemama*
(By the way Kay, my dd is named Fenix - the middle English spelling)


How COOL!!! I love it! You're the only other mama of a Phoenix/Fenix that I've met. We named ours for the mythological bird that rises from its own ashes, what made you choose the name?


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## southerngul (Feb 3, 2005)

I can totally see where it would be very helpful to have statistics to back us up on the theory that it's better to respond to our babies than to let them CIO. But where are the statistics that say it's better to CIO? Granted, it does seem that more health care practitioners recommend CIO, but where is the evidence that _it_ works?? I agree with sovereignqueen- some mamas seem to just need to hear it's okay to respond to their baby when he cries. Especially if their pedi/friends/relatives are telling them not to. And remember-statistic can be deceiving too. I don't rely so much on statistics as I do on my Mama instincts- those I know I can trust. They are only biased in favor of my babies!

Off to post an intro now- I'm new 'round these parts


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southerngul*
I can totally see where it would be very helpful to have statistics to back us up on the theory that it's better to respond to our babies than to let them CIO. But where are the statistics that say it's better to CIO? Granted, it does seem that more health care practitioners recommend CIO, but where is the evidence that _it_ works?? I agree with sovereignqueen- some mamas seem to just need to hear it's okay to respond to their baby when he cries. Especially if their pedi/friends/relatives are telling them not to. And remember-statistic can be deceiving too. I don't rely so much on statistics as I do on my Mama instincts- those I know I can trust. They are only biased in favor of my babies!

Off to post an intro now- I'm new 'round these parts









I work with medical statistics for my job. And I can tell you there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

I've looked into the sleep "research" and it is all so biased that it is impossible to judge anything. Like- one study compared separate room from birth to cosleeping families. They asked parents about their kid's habits. Of course, the CIO'ers reported their kids fell asleep fast, stay asleep, are not scared, etc.

The thing is- how would they know? They are in another room. These studies that back up CIO don't actually put cameras in the baby's room, they rely on parent' reports. And these parents need to justify their prectices by claiming their kids sleep. I've been to the houses of CIO parents. I hear their kids crying. I know that when these parents tell me their kids sleep fine, they are full of it.

There are also pro-cosleeping studie which are also often methodologically flawed in other ways.

The problem with sleep studies is there are no long term studies (those are very expensive and difficult to do.) they are often based on parental reports and the result are cooked, cooked, cooked.

I'd love to see some good, non biased sleep research on kids, but I'm not holding my breath. People want to raise their kids in a way that fulfills their own ideas about life. They don't really want to know the truth.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *awnja*
I have to agree with Kay.
I know a woman who did CIO because that's what she was taught was best. Her kids have grown up to be well adjusted, secure, independent and nurturing adults. Her son is LITERALLY a "rocket scientist" and is politically active and her daughter is a graphic designer and figure skater who works with special needs children in her spare time. They come home to be with their parents on a regular basis and have fond memories of their childhood.

I feel bad for this mother when I think of her sitting outside her baby's door, crying, waiting for the baby to stop screaming and go to sleep. Its terrible that she thought she had to do this. I'm sure it was awful for mom, dad and baby and its a wacked practice... but the damage tends to get exagerated. It doesn't destroy a child. There are worse things. For example, if parents were to divorce over cosleeping, that would affect a childhood more than CIO, in my opinion.

Anyway, what Kay said. We should just let people know its not necessary and what the alternatives are. Lets see some studies! Beyond statistics too (good stats tend to find little proof against any sleep arrangement). I'd love to know if, say, GW Bush cried it out.. or if Ghandi did (doubt it).. or Trump.. or Madonna.. or MLK.. That would be interesting.

Speculations that are so easy to argue just hurt the case against CIO.

Julie

I think there are good parents who CIO, spank, etc. I don't agree with the practices, but some people are good parents and do them.

That said, I think CIO is the beginning of detached parenting for many and leads to worse parenting because of that.

I wanted to mention something in response to your post.

I know a lot of people who talk about the threat of divorce in relationship to night time parenting. I even have one friend who worried that her marriage may be over one night she slept in a separate bed to co-sleep with her dd.

Now- a man who acted as my surrogate grandfather is from the Sudan. His wife and three kids lived in the Sudan while he worked in the US the majority of his adult life. He returned there maybe every other year for a few weeks. Now in late life his family has joined him and they are happy to be together full time.

How can I explain to this man, who sacrificed everything for his family, that many American couples simply can't stay married if they can't sleep together every night, alone, without interruption.

This man thinks it's funny that Americans need a bed to sleep! He thinks I'm spoiled because I have to have running hot water.

What kind of crazy culture do we have where are relationships are so weak? How can we be so reluctant to sacrifice for our children? How would I explain this to a person on the other side of the world who works 12 hours a day and comed home to a matt on the floor and a 1 bdroom house with 5 kids in it that I'm just "too tired" to hold my 2 year old if she is sad?

I think CIO is bad for parents! It gives them a reason to be closed off from their families and selfish. Why do we want a life like that?


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## CajunMama (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
People want to raise their kids in a way that fulfills their own ideas about life. They don't really want to know the truth.

This is so true. ime most parents that have cio don't want to hear about the alternatives. the same goes for breastfeeding.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *awnja*
... but the damage tends to get exagerated. It doesn't destroy a child. There are worse things. For example, if parents were to divorce over cosleeping, that would affect a childhood more than CIO, in my opinion.
Julie

you know what, i agree with the points about needing stats to back up the claims,and i believe there are people out there who did fine despite having had their communication and needs ignored as infants and children. BUT i think that, as has been said, cannot paint all with the same brush. i am sure there ARE kids out there who have been harmed by CIO, perhaps they were not as adaptive, or their parents weren't nurturing them in other ways, too. hard to say.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think there are good parents who CIO, spank, etc. I don't agree with the practices, but some people are good parents and do them.

That said, I think CIO is the beginning of detached parenting for many and leads to worse parenting because of that.

I wanted to mention something in response to your post.

I know a lot of people who talk about the threat of divorce in relationship to night time parenting. I even have one friend who worried that her marriage may be over one night she slept in a separate bed to co-sleep with her dd.

Now- a man who acted as my surrogate grandfather is from the Sudan. His wife and three kids lived in the Sudan while he worked in the US the majority of his adult life. He returned there maybe every other year for a few weeks. Now in late life his family has joined him and they are happy to be together full time.

How can I explain to this man, who sacrificed everything for his family, that many American couples simply can't stay married if they can't sleep together every night, alone, without interruption.

This man thinks it's funny that Americans need a bed to sleep! He thinks I'm spoiled because I have to have running hot water.

What kind of crazy culture do we have where are relationships are so weak? How can we be so reluctant to sacrifice for our children? How would I explain this to a person on the other side of the world who works 12 hours a day and comed home to a matt on the floor and a 1 bdroom house with 5 kids in it that I'm just "too tired" to hold my 2 year old if she is sad?

I think CIO is bad for parents! It gives them a reason to be closed off from their families and selfish. Why do we want a life like that?

WOW!!!!!!! That is a really great point! Really, its the "detached" parents who are the spoiled brats, huh?

I agree that there are many good families using CIO simply because they feel they must. And because they are tired. The "authorities" don't "approve" of co-sleeping, but for goodness sake, if it were shown to be an option for tired new mummies, how much more rested would they be!!!!

BTDT BOTH ways, and thus my crusade is to give mothers CHOICE.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CajunMama*
This is so true. ime most parents that have cio don't want to hear about the alternatives. the same goes for breastfeeding.

ITA with this!


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## SouthernMommaOf2 (May 31, 2005)

I just wanted to say that recently I started to do the "Super Nanny" sleep technique...It requires you to place your child in bed and sit facing away from them not reacting to anything they do or say one word and when they got outta bed you gently placed them back to bed. Well I will be the first to admit we tried this for 2 full weeks. It was TERRIBLE! My daughter would just sob and cry until she calmed down and fell asleep...then when it would be bed time she sobbed and cried!! It got to the point where she fought naps for 2hrs and then when it was time for me to get up she would wake up immed. and cry for me to sit next to her bed. I finally told dh that something was up. Keep in mind that our daughter has co-slept from day ONE. We just couldn't get any rest with all her kicking and such in bed so we thought we would try this..Well now we have changed our minds. This was a TERRIBLE thing to put her through and ourselves. We were pulling her away from us and it was scary for us all. We now place her in her bed to sleep but CUDDLE with her until she is asleep and slip outta her bed. When she wakes up at night we go CUDDLE up with her and SING to her and let her know we are here for her. NOT IGNORING her and we feel MUCH better about it!! I have let my daughter cry for an hour in her room and I will be honest...I did it because I thought it needed to be done. My daughter turns 2 next week and I'm devastated that I believed that the super nanny sleep technique would work for us and I'm appalled that I even agreed to try it!! I am a proud mama who co-sleeps and if our daughter needs to be in bed with us inside of snuggling in her bed then she is welcome
















Mandi


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## nitareality (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *awnja*
and its a wacked practice... but the damage tends to get exagerated. It doesn't destroy a child. There are worse things. For example, if parents were to divorce over cosleeping, that would affect a childhood more than CIO, in my opinion.

Julie

I guess it depends on your definition of "destroy".







How much experience do you have with attachment disordered children? It's not something that always happens when people use CIO, no, but it's just one of those things you don't want to risk. It's close enough to "destroyed" to discourage me.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

Co sleeping works. My parents co slept with me 44 years ago and have had such a fantastic relationship with them! (DF passed away the morning dd was born)My mother and I are so close. I trust her implicitly.I honestly feel that a major reason that I am the person that I am today is because of the way I was parented (mostly by mom-but those were the times...).That's enough of a statistic for me!


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musemama*
Hi! My daughter Fenix is almost 6 months old, she's breastfeeding and wakes up a few times each night to feed. So often I catch myself wondering if I'm doing something wrong, why isn't she sleeping through the night? So much data out there is based on formula feeding, and so many other parents, doctors and society in general put out expectations for sleeping straight through.

I'm new to this forum, but it's refreshing to see the other side supported here.

I have yet to read the article in question, but I also agree with Kay that without good support, a strongly opinionated article doesn't do much to convince me what's best as a parent. Sometimes I react emotionally, but upon consideration, I need proof.

(By the way Kay, my dd is named Fenix - the middle English spelling)

My daughter is 8 months old, breastfeeding, cosleeping, and she is still going through periods of frequent waking/nursing in the night. Some of it is related to teething. Some to growth spurts and having a busy brain when she's figured out something new. But the most important thing my doctor ever told me regarding the myth of sleeping through the night is that the medical definition of sleeping through the night is only 4 hours. If she sleeps 4 hours straight somewhere in there, by definition she's sleeping through the night.










~Sarah
Mama to Qualia, 8 months


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## juliepersons (Aug 18, 2005)

I know! And do we know how these kids are affected in the long run? There are subtle differences that mean a great deal when you are a grown person and cannot sleep well or don't feel good about yourself. We never know the long term effects; the best we can do is love our children and listen to them to tell us what they need.
Snuggle up! Julie (co-sleeping







for nearly 6 years and counting ) mommy to







: and


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:

I'm sure it was awful for mom, dad and baby and its a wacked practice... but the damage tends to get exagerated. It doesn't destroy a child. There are worse things. For example, if parents were to divorce over cosleeping, that would affect a childhood more than CIO, in my opinion.
i don't think we can tell if the damage is exagerrated or not. i personally think that ignoring a baby's cries is abuse. the baby has a need that the parent is not responding too. of course, we have no real way of demonstrating the exact amount of damage caused by CIO. some babies are very sensitive and letting them CIO can have the potential to be very damaging.

mandi


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## MamaEllie (Oct 4, 2005)

Great Article


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## Christeeny (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Just looked it up, and I've been staying up late enough to watch Saturday Night Live since the day before I turned 6. Yep, since its premiere.

(for those of you who might be aghast, an innocent kid doesn't even get that the jokes are dirty sometimes unless adults are acting like they're dirty. i had a whole different understanding of many SNL sketches than their reality...once I started watching re-runs as an adult I could still remember what I thought they were about, and I was shocked that the sketches were so naughty!)

LOL I KWYM. I've watched things like that as a kid, and the jokes totally went over my head. Nowadays, I can't believe I was so naive!


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## Christeeny (Jun 8, 2005)

Those are some great quotes. I can't read the full articles right now. I have my Toddler coming in and pulling on me every few min. LOL


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## Lizseas (Nov 7, 2005)

http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/culturalarticle.html

Hi All:
I am just jumping right in... I am an RN, LLLL and IBCLC and Mama to 2 homebirthed, cosleeping, extended BF babes. This is an article by noted US sleep researcher James McKenna, looking at how culture effects the way we (sleep and) parent. I often refer Moms to this site for another look at sleep, and how there are fewer "sleep problems" out there than we think... If only we could just listen to our babes and our Mama instincts without criticism!
Liz


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Molly your post made me laugh but also set off a lightbulb-- I could totally relate to you --watching late late night TV very young, last one to sleep as slumber parties (I remember people begging me to shut up and finally just ignoring me). But here's something else I remember-- before all that. I was the youngest in my family, and I had to go upstairs to bed alone while my older sibs got to stay downstairs and watch the Tonight Show. I HATED being upstairs alone. I could not fall asleep feeling so alone and far away from everyone. I would lay there and yell out their names every minute until someone came upstairs, or I would sneak to the bottom of the stairs and wait until they were coming up. I remember the main feeling I had was that no one cared about me.

It just hit me, how different is this from a baby left alone and crying in a crib? Ok, so I was 6 or 7







but I am sure there is some primal instinct in resisting being left alone in the dark, and feeling vulnerable to your core.

Hm.


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## KangaTwo (Jan 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *manda*
Great article!

I also found reading the book _Our Babies, Ourselves_ helped give me more realistic expectations about sleeping. Other cultures seem to handle it so much more level-headedly than Americans do.

I thought that was a great book. Not at all what I expected it to be about, but it was definitely worth my time to read.


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## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

I just want to point out that these articles are MOSTLY written for journals. That means that the writers (usually PhDs) are writing to collegues, or people who have reason to put out theories to others with a similar knowledge base. In other words, the data is more in the lingo or jargon. These would be written to encourage or ask approval for studies, not always site them. Additionally, the studies that are available may not have been very good, so siting them would have been detrimental.

Of course with subjects like non-behavioral psychology and anthropological psychology, there are so many professionals who dismiss the theories as non-ligitimate because of the genre, so to speak, they have to prove the ligitimacy of the theory itself before they can work on proving the theory. Also, some of those publications won't publish or support actual studies until a large enough internal group is convinced that the theory is valid.

That's just based on what I know of journal workings.


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## mom2natty (Feb 5, 2006)

Quote:

And do we know how these kids are affected in the long run? There are subtle differences that mean a great deal when you are a grown person and cannot sleep well or don't feel good about yourself. We never know the long term effects
In his book Good Nights, Dr.Jay Gordan, who is a huge proponent of co-sleeping and responding to children's night time needs, says that he rarely sees or hears about many of the "mainstream" problems American teenagers have from his clients. Most families who see him are co-sleeping families and when their kids grow to be teenagers, they are so close to their parents (for a lot of reasons but nighttime trust he says, is really important) that they are not rebelling as extremely as many tennagers. So my longwinded point is that, sure many kids who CIO will be fine, contributing, members of society. I have many friends who CriedIO and didn't breastfeed long as babies, if at all, and they are lovely people, but they are nowhere near as close to their parents as I am (a former co-sleeper and I nursed until i was 4). I was a mild teenager in comparison too. I was very honest with my parents and wanted them to be happy and proud and so I never did anything too crazy (just normal, mild risk taking). Where as my buddies' teenage stories make me shudder!!! Americans think it is normal to cry it out, but we also think it is normal for teenagers to HATE their parents (sure I thought mine were annoying from time to time but never HATED them) and to run away from home , get drunk, be sexually active so young and act out in big ways. Is there a connection? I think so.


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## Lillianna (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi! I'm just jumping in here, but have a few questions. when do the children go to bed? Do the adults always have to lie down with the child in order for them to go to bed?


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## RBinTEX (Apr 16, 2004)

Hi Lillianna. I'm just jumping in here too. In my house, my baby usually goes to bed when I do, unless she's really sleepy. In that case, she'll nurse herself to sleep in my lap in the living room, and I'll lay her down in our bed and join her later. Naps work that way too. I know it's nap time when she gets whiny and pulls up in my lap and tosses her head back to nurse. That means I need to pull out my book and read for 15 or 20 minutes until she's good and asleep, then I lay her in the bed.

On the good parent/bad parent, cio/cosleep debate: It's funny, I've been thinking a bit about this topic lately! I have three older children, and one little one. When my older ones were little, I found other moms with my same mindset through LLL, etc. When the kids got older, I made new friends closer to home with the moms that were active in the same parent involvement programs at the schools, etc. I have some close friendships with these moms now, and we've watched our kids grow up together. They are great moms with great kids, and I'm glad my kids have grown up with theirs. When you have left the breastfeeding and cosleeping years (and they do go by quickly, believe it or not) you tend to forget about those days. It never occured to me to wonder what my new friends did when their kids were little. Now that my friends see me breastfeeding and sleeping with a toddler, they are astonished! They ask a lot of questions. I was astonished at first to discover that these great moms with great kids bottle fed and put their babies in cribs to cio! But, parenting is a complex equation. I would never and will never give up extended nursing and cosleeping. But I do see good moms who didn't do either.

To be perfectly honest, my house is different than their houses in some ways. They are always complaining about siblings battling each other, and that just doesn't happen here. (Tandem nursing, maybe?) On the flip side, their kids seem to be a little more mature and a little less dependent on mom as they enter the teen years. But, I've never been in a rush for my kids to grow up too quickly. I guess it depends on what you're after.

Bottom line, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Of course, I think my way is the best way, otherwise, I would have done it differently. But, I'm not going to knock my friends for doing what they did. I know these ladies, and they want the best for their kids too.


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