# Did we do the right thing? It was awful!



## emikey (Dec 6, 2004)

DS is almost 11 mo. He has been waking up more and more at night, and at night he nurses to sleep after every waking (during the day I am not home). Last night after waking every hour to nurse, he woke fully up in the middle of the night and clearly wanted to play. He wanted both his parents in the room. He wasn't hungry and wasn't interested in nursing, but wanted to play. DH and I both felt like it had become a game, so we tried not to engage him. But it didn't work, so I left the room and DH held him and rocked him to sleep.

It was horrible. It took about half an hour with about 4 intermittent bouts of serious hollering, screaming, crying. I would never CIO but DH was holding and cuddling him the whole time. Afterwards we were both totally worn out.

DS nursed later that night (co-sleeps for the 2nd half of the night) and was perfectly happy in the morning.

Was this the right thing to do? Is my judgment clouded because I had work to finish? And on a related note, I would like DS to learn to fall asleep again on his own, but I don't want to give up our nighttime nursing because I WOH all day.


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## guitarmama (Jul 7, 2005)

Oh my gosh, don't beat yourself up over it. Sure, you need to listen to your baby's needs, but when your baby thinks he needs to play at 3am he is clearly not right. You are the parent!

My DH puts dd to bed nearly every night. She resists for a few minytes, but finally succumbs. Your baby needs to be able to find comfort in daddy as well as mommy.

Remember, being ap doesn't mean being a martyr!!!!!!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

He wasn't hungry, so you weren't withholding food.

He did fall asleep, so he was tired, I assume.

He was in papa's arms, and that's a nice place to be.

The only thing I see "wrong" is that he rocked him to sleep? Did that mean he was sitting down? If so, in the future, see if your DH can walk with him along with rocking. To be honest, we do the same sort of thing...if DS isn't hungry, is tired, and is pretending like he wants to play, DH will take him and walk with him, bounce with him, and sing Korean songs to him...and it will almost always work (sometimes he realizes he is actually hungry, and Papa can't help with that). But actually ROCKING to sleep very rarely works, and will lengthen the amount of time it takes to coax him to sleep.

Suggest that DH walks with him.

And make sure that DH finds some songs that he can sing in his lovely low (I assume) voice that will help them have their own little rituals.

Oh, the walking thing also helps b/c you can stay in bed and get a catnap, just in case DS decides he wants you instead...we decided early on that there was no point in BOTH of us being awake, so while one "works", the other sleeps, and we'll switch off if necessary.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm sorry but if your child was crying because he wanted YOU & you wouldn't go to him this IS CIO. I hope I am misunderstanding.


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## jbmill2 (Oct 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I'm sorry but if your child was crying because he wanted YOU & you wouldn't go to him this IS CIO. I hope I am misunderstanding.

the definition of CIO is letting the babe cry alone so they learn to "self soothe" and get their 'energy' out. Since her husband was holding the baby, this was not CIO, the baby just wasn't getting what she wanted. IMO as a parent there are times you cannot give the baby exactly what they want either for safety reasons or practicality. Though upsetting to hear her baby cry, she was doing just fine having her DH rock the baby.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I disagree.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Setting limitations for your child is not a bad thing in my opinion.

I have been in your shoes (last night in fact) and have felt horrible about it. I had to leave DD with my DH last night for a few minutes after she woke up in the middle of her nights sleep (at 9pm). I work so I only have between 8pm (after DD goes to bed) and 10pm to get dinner, do laundry and pack a bag for her daycare. I hated to do it but I had to finish even though the only thing she would have been happy with was for me to stop everything and lay down with her in my bed (not her crib where she spends the first half of the night).

I do have to agree though, it does feel like CIO because last night I wasn't responding to her needs. The problem I have is that she was with daddy who was holding her but it just wasn't good enough this time. That is where I feel she needs to have limitations. She needs to learn that I can't always jump when she wants me to.

My DD is far from neglected though. I do not advocate CIO.

Dawn
mommy to Samantha Jane
almost 1


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I really feel like both parents need to be able to handle the night time stuff. It is utterly unfair to let ALL the sleeplessness fall on one parent because the child is used to just that one parent. This child was not hungry, or alone, and daddy IS just as good as mom.


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## Valian (Oct 16, 2005)

While my Dh is a fully competent parent, I don't deny that my babe has preferences at times. When he is expressing a preference for me, I don't believe its healthy to try and "teach him that Dh is just as good." That's just another way of saying he needs to learn to get along without Mom. Forced independence. If this was an older child, if Mom was at work, or otherwise unavailable, it can't be helped.

I think denying an infant access to Mom when that is the comfort the babe is needing is and Mom is available, not taking time to herself because she has reached her limits, is a last resort, not a first choice.

Yes, I agree that both parents need to be able to help with nighttime parenting, but when Dad is already an attached parent and baby is still crying for Mom, the baby is stating a need that isn't being met.

My Dh did 99% of bedtime parenting for months because he was the preferred parent. I do 99% of nighttime because upon waking up Ds only wants to nurse, or wants me to offer the potty (we EC).


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valian* 
While my Dh is a fully competent parent, I don't deny that my babe has preferences at times. When he is expressing a preference for me, I don't believe its healthy to try and "teach him that Dh is just as good." That's just another way of saying he needs to learn to get along without Mom. Forced independence. If this was an older child, if Mom was at work, or otherwise unavailable, it can't be helped.

I think denying an infant access to Mom when that is the comfort the babe is needing is and Mom is available, not taking time to herself because she has reached her limits, is a last resort, not a first choice.

Yes, I agree that both parents need to be able to help with nighttime parenting, but when Dad is already an attached parent and baby is still crying for Mom, the baby is stating a need that isn't being met.

My Dh did 99% of bedtime parenting for months because he was the preferred parent. I do 99% of nighttime because upon waking up Ds only wants to nurse, or wants me to offer the potty (we EC).


I don't think there is anyway to know for certain if the baby was wanting MOM or wanting to just stay up and PLAY. He very well could have done that even if mom had been holding him.

I think it sounds like you have a wonderful DH. My DH would have never intervened and helped like that. Your DC is obviously very much loved by both of you.


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## MOM2ANSLEY (May 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I really feel like both parents need to be able to handle the night time stuff. It is utterly unfair to let ALL the sleeplessness fall on one parent because the child is used to just that one parent. This child was not hungry, or alone, and daddy IS just as good as mom.

I agree. It sounds to me that your ds would have cried reguardless of who was rocking, cuddling walking or whatever to get him to sleep b/c he was trying to stay awake. My dd went to sleep easily(most of the time) but my ds almost always needs to be rocked, walked comforted etc ds just doesn't want to give in to the sandman kwim. You did nothing wrong imo.
don't beat yourself up, your child was being attended to.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I'm sorry but if your child was crying because he wanted YOU & you wouldn't go to him this IS CIO. I hope I am misunderstanding.

I agree, even more so in this situation. Mama isn't home during the day so bubby takes advantage of the fact that both mommy and daddy are together, at once, and he wants to play. Can you blame him for wanting to make up for lost time when he has the chance? Smart kid!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I'm sorry but if your child was crying because he wanted YOU & you wouldn't go to him this IS CIO. I hope I am misunderstanding.

She didn't say that baby was crying for mom, though. Baby wanted to be up and play, which would have hurt all of them, even baby, in the morning. She said he wasn't interested in nursing, he just wanted to play in the middle of the night.

I think you're misunderstanding or mis-reading, or reading something into it that wasn't stated.

I think this is more just a matter of parents saying "we really can't play this late at night, it's time to go to sleep", and helping that to happen.

It could easily have been the OP rocking the crying baby to sleep...would we so easily say "oh baby was crying for his father", if the story had gone that way?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Mothering does not consider "crying in arms" to be crying it out, assuming that the baby is with a loving caregiver who is attemping to soothe.

Whether it is acceptable to have one caregiver attempting to soothe a child who is expressing a clear preference for a different caregiver is a separate issue, and every family will have to make their own decisions about where to draw these lines.

Dar


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis* 
She didn't say that baby was crying for mom, though. Baby wanted to be up and play, which would have hurt all of them, even baby, in the morning. She said he wasn't interested in nursing, he just wanted to play in the middle of the night.

After re-reading, you're right. It very easily could have been with either parent that he did this. It just stuck out to me that mom isn't home during the day and that Baby wanted both parents in the room to play. I don't think playing in the middle of the night is the answer, but if he's just missing mama its still kind of sad to think that he just wanted to make up for lost time.

Tough situation.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Did you try to put him in your bed and nurse him down? Or were you avoiding that since it wasn't "time" yet? It's one thing if you try everything and baby still cries. It's quite another if you refuse to try some things that could help.

-Angela


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Look. The Mothering hoardes are not in your house at 3am. At 3:00 in the morning, when you're exhausted and have a baby that has been nursing every hour all night long and then wants to play, you have to do what will keep you sane. I've been in that exact. same. position. before. Exactly. I let my husband rock him, I think he was about a year at the time, and he screamed for half an hour or so and then fell asleep. This was a nightly thing for us. He wanted to have playtime every morning around 2:30 or 3:00, in addition to nursing every hour on the hour, and I had another kid to get up and deal with every morning and I was writing at the time and had deadlines to meet. It would be fantastic if every family was set up to revolve around whatever schedule baby sets. I'm not saying that sarcastically. That's basically what my oldest child got. It just isn't always practical. Sane parents are better parents, and sleep deprivation is no joke when it comes to staying sane.

You didn't leave your baby to cry alone. He very well may have been angry that it wasn't you, but he wasn't scared. He knew he was safe. Answer to yourself only. If it feels really, really wrong then don't do it. It sounds to me like you were at the end of your rope and did what you had to do to get through the night.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

My youngest ds will do this where he says Mama Daddy Mama Daddy Mama Daddy. We will pass him back and forth back and forth back and forth. And finally one of us will take him. He is usually more than mildly pissed off. But if both parents stay in the room, he won't go to back to sleep. There are more than a few occassion where this has happened. We decided that at least one of us should get sleep, so the other takes him and usually sleeps on the couch while he watches a movie sitting on top of us.

If he expresses an absolute preference, that parent takes him.

And every once in a while he will just nurse back to sleep because I can INSIST. But that's fairly rare.

He's rather opinionated I suppose.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't "let" any of my babies up to play in the middle of the night. If they wake they get nursed. If they want up, they get rocked back to sleep. I am VERY anti-CIO but I also am a big believer in don't start what you don't want to continue. If you don't want to be up every night playing in the middle of the night, don't let it start.

It is hard to listen to, and I've rocked down my kids while they were crying, wanting to stay up, wanting to play, but since they rarely nap, they are exhausted and really need some sleep.

Have you tried singing to him? That often helps my daughter fall asleep. Or something like baby sleep sounds playing loudly (to start and turn it down as the baby calms down, usually very quickly). All while I'm rocking her and patting her bottom or rubbing her back.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra* 
Look. The Mothering hoardes are not in your house at 3am. At 3:00 in the morning, when you're exhausted and have a baby that has been nursing every hour all night long and then wants to play, you have to do what will keep you sane. I've been in that exact. same. position. before. Exactly. I let my husband rock him, I think he was about a year at the time, and he screamed for half an hour or so and then fell asleep. This was a nightly thing for us. He wanted to have playtime every morning around 2:30 or 3:00, in addition to nursing every hour on the hour, and I had another kid to get up and deal with every morning and I was writing at the time and had deadlines to meet. It would be fantastic if every family was set up to revolve around whatever schedule baby sets. I'm not saying that sarcastically. That's basically what my oldest child got. It just isn't always practical. Sane parents are better parents, and sleep deprivation is no joke when it comes to staying sane.

You didn't leave your baby to cry alone. He very well may have been angry that it wasn't you, but he wasn't scared. He knew he was safe. Answer to yourself only. If it feels really, really wrong then don't do it. It sounds to me like you were at the end of your rope and did what you had to do to get through the night.

Amen.

Having had disasterous consequences happen in my own house because of martyr induced sleep deprivation and not asking my dh to help, I applaud the OP for recognizing when she reached her limit.

Scary things can happen when a parent has reached his/her limit. There is NOTHING wrong with asking for help when you need it or having your partner help PARENT when you need it. NOTHING.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane* 
I don't "let" any of my babies up to play in the middle of the night. If they wake they get nursed. If they want up, they get rocked back to sleep. I am VERY anti-CIO but I also am a big believer in don't start what you don't want to continue. If you don't want to be up every night playing in the middle of the night, don't let it start.

It is hard to listen to, and I've rocked down my kids while they were crying, wanting to stay up, wanting to play, but since they rarely nap, they are exhausted and really need some sleep.

Have you tried singing to him? That often helps my daughter fall asleep. Or something like baby sleep sounds playing loudly (to start and turn it down as the baby calms down, usually very quickly). All while I'm rocking her and patting her bottom or rubbing her back.

Yeah. My babe knows that if he gets up we will put him right back down. We keep the lights off, etc. If he is sick and miserable, however, I will carry him around with me as I do my evening stuff until he drops off (this has only happened twice in his life).

Yes, singing! And rocking with Daddy is hard here, too. Walking is definitely better.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane* 
I don't "let" any of my babies up to play in the middle of the night. If they wake they get nursed. If they want up, they get rocked back to sleep. I am VERY anti-CIO but I also am a big believer in don't start what you don't want to continue. If you don't want to be up every night playing in the middle of the night, don't let it start.

Oh my goodness! How true. I guess out of guilt over returning to work, I would let my son get up at 2:00 in the morning to play instead of patting him or nursing him back to sleep. Boy did it turn into a nightmare of a situation. I was getting up at 5:30 with less than 2 hrs of sleep to face a loooong hard day at work. DS is 14 mos. It's obvious to me that at this age, he knows the deal. Now, when I put him down for bed, that's it, he's staying down. Whatever it takes to keep him down--mom or dad. But it can't be over-empahsized . . . don't start what you don't want to continue.


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra* 
Look. The Mothering hoardes are not in your house at 3am. At 3:00 in the morning, when you're exhausted and have a baby that has been nursing every hour all night long and then wants to play, you have to do what will keep you sane. I've been in that exact. same. position. before. Exactly. I let my husband rock him, I think he was about a year at the time, and he screamed for half an hour or so and then fell asleep. This was a nightly thing for us. He wanted to have playtime every morning around 2:30 or 3:00, in addition to nursing every hour on the hour, and I had another kid to get up and deal with every morning and I was writing at the time and had deadlines to meet. It would be fantastic if every family was set up to revolve around whatever schedule baby sets. I'm not saying that sarcastically. That's basically what my oldest child got. It just isn't always practical. Sane parents are better parents, and sleep deprivation is no joke when it comes to staying sane.

*You didn't leave your baby to cry alone. He very well may have been angry that it wasn't you, but he wasn't scared. He knew he was safe. Answer to yourself only. If it feels really, really wrong then don't do it. It sounds to me like you were at the end of your rope and did what you had to do to get through the night*.


Bold mine...

I think this is the best advice on this thread so far. Trust yourself mama.


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## mamamilkers (Nov 11, 2005)

Do what's in your heart, mama. It doesn't sound, to me, like you did the wrong thing. I would have done the same thing in your situation.


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

It sounds to me that you did just fine with the situation. Your babe was with Daddy and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally wouldn't consider that CIO.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch* 
Amen.

Having had disasterous consequences happen in my own house because of martyr induced sleep deprivation and not asking my dh to help, I applaud the OP for recognizing when she reached her limit.

Scary things can happen when a parent has reached his/her limit. There is NOTHING wrong with asking for help when you need it or having your partner help PARENT when you need it. NOTHING.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree, even more so in this situation. Mama isn't home during the day so bubby takes advantage of the fact that both mommy and daddy are together, at once, and he wants to play. Can you blame him for wanting to make up for lost time when he has the chance? Smart kid!

Before starting my own family I cared for infants in daycare -- and some of these babies missed Mommy so much they literally turned their sleep-wake cycles around and had their long stretches of sleep at daycare. I suppose we caregivers were lazy to let this happen -- but with four babies to every one adult we often let the high-need babies sleep as much as they would 'cause otherwise they were up screaming over our inabilty to hold them all the time (due to our need to care for the other babies). I don't know who cares for your ds during the day, but you might see if he's sleeping a whole lot during this time due to his preference for being awake with you.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Sometimes if I'm trying to get ds to sleep and I'm really tired and/or frustrated I'll let dh take over. When we do this sometimes ds will fuss a little and calm down and go to sleep. Sometimes he'll just up and start to cry. I can always tell if daddy is a good idea within the first 2 minutes. If I know ds is going to fuss for a few minutes (not out and out crying) because he's winding down and fall asleep I will let dh take care of it. But if I know that ds really wants/needs me (and who am I to say he "doesn't really NEED me") I will take him back. I think it's cruel not to. And even if I am at the end of my rope, a couple of minutes is usually sufficient for me to calm down enough to take ds back.

Sometimes a baby just needs mommy. I remember an incident as a child where we were at Disneyland and we went on the haunted mansion. We were in the "stretching room," where a whole bunch of people stand scrunched together in the dark with scary music and a scary voice talking. I freaked out and called for my mom. She couldn't reach me, but told my step-dad (with whom I normally felt really safe) to grab my hand. His presence did NOTHING to alleviate my fear and panic. I wanted my mom. I know the situation isn't the same, but every time I hear my son crying for me I remember what it felt like when I knew nothing but my mama's arms could make me feel safe. And there's no way I could deny him that.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

"That is where I feel she needs to have limitations. She needs to learn that I can't always jump when she wants me to."

Statements like the above make me really sad, especially when we're talking about babes under a year old. A baby's wants ARE his needs. Can you always get to your crying baby right away? Maybe not (I know at times I can't, not with two kids under two), but it's so not about our babes making us "jump" for them.

dd went through a phase when she woke at night and was ready to go. I usually brought her downstairs and let her play while I rested on the couch. She was almost always ready to go back to bed shortly, and she did outgrow that phase with some time. I was tired, but it didn't last very long. Hugs, I hope you find a solution that works for you!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Both my girls sometimes go through shifts in their sleep-wake cycles. Though they generally sleep their longest stretches at night, one or the other will sometimes be wide-awake in the middle of the night. I've found that just going along with this like turtlemama77 does, and resting as they play, does NOT result in them doing this forever and ever.

If I wake up and feel like having a snack or reading, I do it. Just because our babies/small children need us to meet their needs, does that mean they don't have a right to be awake if they're awake? It helps to remember the time is so short that they're small: soon they'll be old enough to just get up and take care of their own needs for a snack or something to do without requiring parents to be up too.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

We talk a lot about "natural consequences" in the attachment parenting world. I feel it's a natural consequence that adults are tired in the middle of the night and will not be playing with a lot of energy. Feeding, loving, changing yes, but not playing. It's also a natural consequence that it is dark at night!

I have a friend who had a one year old who always wanted to play in the middle of the night....I still remember the desparation in her eyes.

As for me I was up at 3 AM with an ill, wakeful, but thankfully not playful teenager last night...we had a great conversation. And it was hard being so tired today.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:

Last night after waking every hour to nurse, he woke fully up in the middle of the night and clearly wanted to play. He wanted both his parents in the room. *He wasn't hungry and wasn't interested in nursing, but wanted to play.*
I have been in the same boat as you, many times. I am a working mother, and DH is a SAHD. Sometimes our son will wake in the night and start leaping around on our heads, wanting to play. I have to be at work for 8am, so when DS wakes in the night and nursing doesn't settle him down, DH happily gets up with him and lets me sleep. I know that when he's not happy nursing, *BOTH* of us will have the same results by getting up with him: 1) cranky, hard to calm baby or 2) baby who is overstimulated and just needs 20 minutes or so to unwind. It doesn't matter which of us gets up with him, just that one of us DOES. DH is happy to do this, because he knows that I'm a total bear without my sleep.

No, I don't think it's CIO if he's crying in your husbands arms. He could have just as easily been crying in your arms. Nursing isn't ALWAYS an instant fix. And as you said, he wanted to play, not nurse. Either one of you was capable of dealing with the issue. If your DH was happy getting up with your child, then more power to him. Don't beat yourself up over it.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

11 months, right on the brink of walking, or he just learned to do so.
sounds to me like he is regressing in other areas, which is quite normal when babes reach such a huge milestone.
he needed you for something IMO. you could have made it clear there was going to be no playing involved, but i know if it had been me, i'd have not been able to leave my crying baby... dh or no dh.
i respect daddys as parents, but in my eyes, there is just no one quite like the momma, and babes need their mommas.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane* 
I don't "let" any of my babies up to play in the middle of the night. If they wake they get nursed. If they want up, they get rocked back to sleep. I am VERY anti-CIO but I also am a big believer in don't start what you don't want to continue. If you don't want to be up every night playing in the middle of the night, don't let it start.

Mine may be an outlier opinion, but I don't agree that just because a baby is up and wants to play a few times at one point in his/her life that this will continue for years on end.

My younger DD went through this phase, and we just got up with her. One of us would take her downstairs and let her "play" until she was obviously tired. I think it happened three or four times. Most times she was ready for bed within 20 minutes, but one time it took an hour and a half (lucky me was up with her that time!).

As suddenly as it started, it stopped. I think there's a developmental time when their brains are just busy and they are up in the middle of the night. I don't think that allowing them out of bed a few times at 2 am will make them think it's party time every night.

Of course I have only 2 data points to support my point of view, so MHO, YMMV and all that.
Nancy


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rileysmommy* 
11 months, right on the brink of walking, or he just learned to do so.
sounds to me like he is regressing in other areas, which is quite normal when babes reach such a huge milestone.

I don't understand why it sounds like he's regressing in any way -- do you mean because he nursed every hour the first part of the night? My dd's have periodically done that, but I never saw it as regression -- just maybe a growth spurt and a need to increase my milk supply, or exposure to an illness and need for more antibodies.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
Sometimes if I'm trying to get ds to sleep and I'm really tired and/or frustrated I'll let dh take over. When we do this sometimes ds will fuss a little and calm down and go to sleep. Sometimes he'll just up and start to cry. I can always tell if daddy is a good idea within the first 2 minutes. If I know ds is going to fuss for a few minutes (not out and out crying) because he's winding down and fall asleep I will let dh take care of it. But if I know that ds really wants/needs me (and who am I to say he "doesn't really NEED me") I will take him back. I think it's cruel not to. And even if I am at the end of my rope, a couple of minutes is usually sufficient for me to calm down enough to take ds back.

I think this really reflects the philosophy we hold here at Mothering. Although we don't consider crying in arms to be CIO, it's also important to respect the integrity of the baby and honor his needs and wants. Sometimes we do need a short break in order to re-center ourselves, and sometimes a baby may initially reject another caregiver but then accept him within a few minutes. If neither of these things is happening, though, and the baby is clearly distressed, it's important to respect the message he's sending.

Dar


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't understand why it sounds like he's regressing in any way -- do you mean because he nursed every hour the first part of the night? My dd's have periodically done that, but I never saw it as regression -- just maybe a growth spurt and a need to increase my milk supply, or exposure to an illness and need for more antibodies.

Maybe he is waking up in the middle of the night to try to/practice a new skill like walking or crawling or whatever. That's what I think the other poster meant. That sometimes happens before milestones.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra* 
Look. The Mothering hoardes are not in your house at 3am. At 3:00 in the morning, when you're exhausted and have a baby that has been nursing every hour all night long and then wants to play, you have to do what will keep you sane. I've been in that exact. same. position. before. Exactly. I let my husband rock him, I think he was about a year at the time, and he screamed for half an hour or so and then fell asleep. This was a nightly thing for us. He wanted to have playtime every morning around 2:30 or 3:00, in addition to nursing every hour on the hour, and I had another kid to get up and deal with every morning and I was writing at the time and had deadlines to meet. It would be fantastic if every family was set up to revolve around whatever schedule baby sets. I'm not saying that sarcastically. That's basically what my oldest child got. It just isn't always practical. Sane parents are better parents, and sleep deprivation is no joke when it comes to staying sane.

You didn't leave your baby to cry alone. He very well may have been angry that it wasn't you, but he wasn't scared. He knew he was safe. Answer to yourself only. If it feels really, really wrong then don't do it. It sounds to me like you were at the end of your rope and did what you had to do to get through the night.






























I hardly ever post in this section but this deeply resonated with me. In no way was the crying the child did with her father sounding like CIO. That's a whole other sitiation and it really muddies the waters and makes folks take so called AP parents less seriously when we judge a situation like this as CIO.

Shay


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlemama77* 
"That is where I feel she needs to have limitations. She needs to learn that I can't always jump when she wants me to."

Statements like the above make me really sad, especially when we're talking about babes under a year old. A baby's wants ARE his needs. Can you always get to your crying baby right away? Maybe not (I know at times I can't, not with two kids under two), but it's so not about our babes making us "jump" for them.

dd went through a phase when she woke at night and was ready to go. I usually brought her downstairs and let her play while I rested on the couch. She was almost always ready to go back to bed shortly, and she did outgrow that phase with some time. I was tired, but it didn't last very long. Hugs, I hope you find a solution that works for you!

Maybe you misunderstood, I ALWAYS JUMP for DD however, I can't always go to bed with her just because she wants me to. Otherwise I would never eat dinner (most days this week I haven't) or have clean clothes for work or her daycare.

See, I am a working mama (by choice & necessity). My time is limited.

here is how my day goes...
6am wake up and shower
615am dh wake up shower and leave
630am baby up and in high chair eating cherrois and water while I dress
7am out the door
715am drop off DD at daycare
730am on the road to work
830 still in traffic...
12noon lunch break (only time for grocery shopping)
5-530p leave work
630-7p finally home (thank gd)
7-8p play bath snack for little one
8-830p baby to bed (I lay down and move to crib after asleep)
830ish-10p eat dinner, do laundry, take off shoes finally, etc.

Now do you see why I can just stop in the middle of trying to wash clothes to tend to her when she has a perfectly loving daddy (who is not ALLOWED to wash my clothes because he puts everything in hot water and full hot dryer!)! You try it.

Dawn

ps. did you notice I never mentioned cleaning house?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

dawn1221, having read your schedule, my heart breaks for both you and your dd. I can fully understand how someone with your demands would find it hard to parent as responsively as you would like.

But it's also not hard to comprehend how a child in this situation might start sleeping for longer stretches at daycare in order to have more awake-time with Mommy and Daddy at night.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

mammal_mama - Thanks for understanding









Actually, DD does not sleep well at daycare. She usually has to naps (on a good day) for 30-45 minutes each. Often times she will not go down for the second afternoon nap but I think she is just getting ready to drop down to 1 nap a day anyway.

When she is home, we nap together. She will sleep an hour plus in the morning but sometimes skip the afternoon one if the am nap runs long.

Dawn


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawn1221* 
mammal_mama - Thanks for understanding









Actually, DD does not sleep well at daycare. She usually has to naps (on a good day) for 30-45 minutes each. Often times she will not go down for the second afternoon nap but I think she is just getting ready to drop down to 1 nap a day anyway.

When she is home, we nap together. She will sleep an hour plus in the morning but sometimes skip the afternoon one if the am nap runs long.

Dawn


Did we give birth to the same child? Dd did not like to nap either unless she was in contact with me. This definitely changed as she got older and now she sleeps a LOT!


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch* 
Amen.

Having had disasterous consequences happen in my own house because of martyr induced sleep deprivation and not asking my dh to help, I applaud the OP for recognizing when she reached her limit.

Scary things can happen when a parent has reached his/her limit. There is NOTHING wrong with asking for help when you need it or having your partner help PARENT when you need it. NOTHING.










I also agree 100%. I have to say that being new to these forums, I am surprised at how people who are obviously very committed to AP get chastised for not doing everything, at all times 100%, absolutely, by the AP book PERFECT. I hope that the children of the critics among us here are not subject to the same expectations of pure, 100% perfection.


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## EyesOfTheWorld (Apr 20, 2004)

I can't believe some of the responses you've gotten. I agree with the other posters that the hoardes are not there at 3am.









My dd1 went through a phase like this for about a month and it was the only time we got any use out of the pack-n-play that was gifted to us. We set it up at the end of our bed with tons of toys and when she got up I'd turn a little light on and set her in it. She played for about 20 minutes before she'd start to fuss, and I'd pick her up and nurse her to sleep.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlemama77* 
dd went through a phase when she woke at night and was ready to go. I usually brought her downstairs and let her play while I rested on the couch. She was almost always ready to go back to bed shortly, and she did outgrow that phase with some time. I was tired, but it didn't last very long. Hugs, I hope you find a solution that works for you!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal mama*
Both my girls sometimes go through shifts in their sleep-wake cycles. Though they generally sleep their longest stretches at night, one or the other will sometimes be wide-awake in the middle of the night. I've found that just going along with this like turtlemama77 does, and resting as they play, does NOT result in them doing this forever and ever.

I'm glad someone else said this, after reading several posts about "not starting what you don't want to continue". These are still BABIES we're talking about here. Sometimes they do weird things. My daughter went through a period of middle-of-the-night waking when she was about 8 or 9 months old and again when she was about 12 or 13 months old. She would wake almost every night between 2 and 4 AM, ready to rock. We'd get up and she'd play for 30 or 40 minutes, then happily return to bed. If I'd forced her to stay in bed, she would've spent just as much time crying, so why not get up with her and let it be a happy, peaceful time, instead of a fighting, adversarial time of crying and me forcing my will upon her? And after 2 or 3 weeks it stopped and she was sleeping just like normal again, both times.

OP, I imagine if you or your DH had just gotten up and played with him, he would've been back asleep in the same amount of time and it would've been easier on all of you. Not criticizing at all, just pointing it out in case it happens again. You might consider letting him play next time, because he'll probably go back to sleep just as quickly either way. Not saying that to be critical and I don't think you have anything to feel bad about at all. I'm just pointing out that there is another way to handle it that might be easier on all of you.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ckw* 
I also agree 100%. I have to say that being new to these forums, I am surprised at how people who are obviously very committed to AP get chastised for not doing everything, at all times 100%, absolutely, by the AP book PERFECT. I hope that the children of the critics among us here are not subject to the same expectations of pure, 100% perfection.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 
I'm glad someone else said this, after reading several posts about "not starting what you don't want to continue". These are still BABIES we're talking about here.

Yes, after 5 of them, I am very aware that they are BABIES. I love babies. I don't actually mind sleep deprivation too much. However, I don't have to get up and go to work the next day. And if getting up and playing with your baby in the middle of the night works for you, go for it. I don't see anything wrong with it. I, for example, still rock my 3 year old to sleep. Its something I don't mind doing at all.

However, the OP expressed concern that she had done "CIO" and I think many of us wanted to reassure her that no, she didn't. CIO is not crying in arms. If you've ever listened to CIO, or really think about the process, you will realize how crying in arms completely differs from putting a baby alone in a crib, alone in a room, and shutting the door on his or her screams for however long it takes. THAT is CIO.

Everyone deals with sleep deprivation differently. During the newborn period, I am fine and happy with just 4 hours of sleep a night. For many months. The older my baby gets, the more sleep I seem to require. However, my dh became a complete bear and found it impossible to function with his hour commute to work if he didn't get 7 hours of sleep a night.

I think all families have to find solutions that work for them, that are still gentle and not CIO. If playing in the middle of the night works for you, feel free. I don't, however, feel that the OP or anyone else, should think that to be AP, they MUST get up in the middle of the night with a child to play.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawn1221* 
Maybe you misunderstood, I ALWAYS JUMP for DD however, I can't always go to bed with her just because she wants me to. Otherwise I would never eat dinner (most days this week I haven't) or have clean clothes for work or her daycare.


You really sound like you have a lot on your plate. I do stand by my thoughts though...babies at this age are not trying to manipulate or make us "jump." Her wanting you to lay down with her is a ligitimate NEED for her. Maybe you've already tried some of these things, but I'm going to mention them anyway. Is there a way you can incorporate your dd in your nighttime routine of getting things ready for the next day? Can you eat dinner when your dd does? Maybe wear her in a sling so she can be close to you? Can your dh do more to help out with the getting ready (and I totally relate to the whole laundry thing...but is there something else he can do?)?

Anyway, I do hope you find a solution. It can be so hard to get everything in that needs to happen...I'm really sorry it's hard right now!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane* 
I don't actually mind sleep deprivation too much. However, I don't have to get up and go to work the next day. And if getting up and playing with your baby in the middle of the night works for you, go for it. I don't see anything wrong with it. I, for example, still rock my 3 year old to sleep. Its something I don't mind doing at all.

However, the OP expressed concern that she had done "CIO" and I think many of us wanted to reassure her that no, she didn't. CIO is not crying in arms. If you've ever listened to CIO, or really think about the process, you will realize how crying in arms completely differs from putting a baby alone in a crib, alone in a room, and shutting the door on his or her screams for however long it takes. THAT is CIO.


I'm sorry I neglected to tell the OP that no, I don't believe letting Daddy hold Baby for a time is CIO: it's true that that was the OP's concern, but, as often happens on discussion threads, others brought up issues such as "don't start what you don't want to continue" -- something many of us hear as attachment parents -- and some of us felt so compelled to address this issue that maybe we lost sight of the original issue.

Having said that, I wanted to respond to something gethane, and I think one other poster, said about "getting up and playing with Baby": some parents may actually be "getting up and playing" -- but what both turtlemama and me (and maybe also Plummeting) talked about was actually just getting up and RESTING (maybe on a nearby couch) while Baby played. I respect the fact that everyone has different ways of handling things, but I personally find it MORE tiring to try to nurse a playful toddler (or almost toddler) back to sleep than to simply lounge on the couch while she winds herself down (plus my toddler's going through a biting-phase right now so it's kind of stupid for me to nurse her if she REALLY wants to play).

I think I'd find my current approach easier even if I wasn't a sahm and had to get up early and be super-productive: I'd be losing sleep trying to put my playful Babe back to sleep while she cried and resisted, and I'd also be losing sleep as I sat on the couch watching her wind herself down -- but this second option is simply less adversarial and therefore less stressful.

Yet sometimes it's just not easy, and we have to guard against heaping guilt on ourselves when things just aren't going smoothly. This afternoon my toddler came to me to nurse, and as she started nursing I saw she was sleepy. She tends to stay latched on through her whole nap, and I really had to pee, plus I noticed she had a sopping wet diaper -- so I ended up unlatching her so I could pee and change her diaper (when she was smaller I used to often pee while holding her in my arms and nursing her, and have still tried to do this sometimes, but she tends to get really angry and throw fits now when I do this, and of course there's the biting I already mentioned, which makes me more cautious about how we nurse, so I carried her with me but didn't try to keep up the nursing the whole time).

Right now she doesn't enjoy diaper changes in general, and this time she was enRAGED and I felt like such a terrible Momma (but since she usually stays latched on for the whole nap it's just easier to do the diaper change before lying down, though I have sometimes managed it while she was latched on) ... well, anyhow, a few moments later she was comfortably latched on and snoozing, and with an empty bladder I actually got to relax a little too and enjoy reading Harry Potter to my 6yo.

All THAT, simply to say that, yes, non-adversarial is an ideal I strive for but sometimes I don't quite manage it. We just have to take a deep breath and move on ...


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlemama77* 
You really sound like you have a lot on your plate. I do stand by my thoughts though...babies at this age are not trying to manipulate or make us "jump." Her wanting you to lay down with her is a ligitimate NEED for her. Maybe you've already tried some of these things, but I'm going to mention them anyway. Is there a way you can incorporate your dd in your nighttime routine of getting things ready for the next day? Can you eat dinner when your dd does? Maybe wear her in a sling so she can be close to you? Can your dh do more to help out with the getting ready (and I totally relate to the whole laundry thing...but is there something else he can do?)?

Anyway, I do hope you find a solution. It can be so hard to get everything in that needs to happen...I'm really sorry it's hard right now!


The particular night I used as an example DD had already been asleep for an hour. She woke up and decided there was nothing in the world that would satisfy her except me going to bed with her, even if daddy did it instead. I usually have a "helper" (DD)when it comes to laundry but this was well after she had already been asleep. I would be happy to wear her in a sling but I have a neck injury so I am not suppose to lift anything over 20 lbs. I do carry her, don't get me wrong, but because she has been walking since 8 months she is very steady on her feet and likes to walk instead. I am so thankful she started walking because I was dying (she is now 24.5 lbs).

As far as DH, I think most of you can relate to how useless most of them are when it comes to stuff around the house. I am lucky though, he does give her baths almost every other bath and maintains her bottles (washing and making for next day). He is very hands on when it comes to DD and supports my AP ways even if it is different than the ways he was told to (and did) raise children. Him and his ex-wife did things completely different.

One last note, AP is about both parents being hands on. Sometimes mommy can't do it even if DC wants it and I think that is fine as long as daddy is there to comfort DC. It takes two to make a baby and I think it is really important to have both parents equally attached. Babies should be comfortable with both parents and my child is, trust me.

She loves her daddy and she was safe, just not getting her way is all. And when I finished what I needed to do I went right to her and we went to bed. She was asleep within 3 minutes.

Dawn
mommy to Samantha Jane
turning 1 on Tuesday


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Let me first say that we are fully committed to bedsharing, we are 'still' night nursing too. I wanted to lend another workd of support here for this Mama.

But when Dd wanted to play during the night, I started a play tomorrow sleep now mantra. Also a snack tomorrow sleep now mantra, when need for such arose. I gave and still give unlimited snuggles. I can't force Dd to sleep but as she grew from baby to child, she needed to understand that adults need to sleep even if she is not.

Crying to play in the middle of the night is not good for anyone in the family. IMHO this is not a behavior to be encouraged and it sounds like for this family, the situation was managed in the way that worked best for them. This was not CIO by any means.

For us our early approach meant a real goal for later years. It took a lot of playing possum but Dd knows that Mama and Dad will get out of bed when we are ready, and no amount of early prodding, jumping, or pleading will make any difference. Our firmness has resulted in a fairly well rested family (if not for my insomnia, ie my reason for being here right now), without any use of televion to amuse Dd. She plays by herself, sometimes she gets her kinderlyre or sings, which is very nice, while Dh and I awaken gently. Maybe not every family needs those few extra moments of sleep, but for our family it's proven very important.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curious* 
It took a lot of playing possum but Dd knows that Mama and Dad will get out of bed when we are ready, and no amount of early prodding, jumping, or pleading will make any difference. Our firmness has resulted in a fairly well rested family (if not for my insomnia, ie my reason for being here right now)...She plays by herself, sometimes she gets her kinderlyre or sings, which is very nice, while Dh and I awaken gently. Maybe not every family needs those few extra moments of sleep, but for our family it's proven very important.

Actually, the main reason I head out of the bedroom if my toddler's very wakeful is because if dh has to be at work the next day, it's hard for him to get enough rest if she's playing in the room. The ideal situation for me PERSONALLY would be to continue lying in bed while dd played around in our room, but it would be very hard on my dh.

Unless you have a laptop that you can bring to bed with you, it sounds like you're responding to your own wakefulness by getting up and engaging your mind with something for a little while. My point is simply that little people sometimes get insomnia too. Before my daughters were mobile, their insomnia meant I got up and walked with them in my arms or the sling. Now that they're mobile, they can get up and play for a bit and I can at least sit and relax until they're ready to go to sleep.


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Actually, the main reason I head out of the bedroom if my toddler's very wakeful is because if dh has to be at work the next day, it's hard for him to get enough rest if she's playing in the room. The ideal situation for me PERSONALLY would be to continue lying in bed while dd played around in our room, but it would be very hard on my dh.


We have that same situation, of Dh not being well prepared for a job that required early rising, a long day, and full alertness and complete focus for the duration. I would get up and take Dd out of bed with me so he could rest. That was where the rocking chair that reclined was great, because I could take Dd into the chair and rock, even recline myself if I wasn't ready to move her when she fell back to sleep, right away. it was a way of giving Dh the quiet he needed but still conveying to Dd that it's sleep time now; nothing else interesting to do.

I've had a long history of insomnia. I remember lying in my crib studying the patterns in the wallpaper in the moonlight as I lay awake. Or watching the neighbors who left their lights on and their curtains open!


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## emikey (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm the OP, and I just wanted to thank you all for weighing in on this, and for your support, in all its various forms. The situation hasn't happened again, but now I feel better prepared for next time - I've learned from you that maybe sometimes I should "play it out" with him until he's ready to fall back asleep, but that if I can't take it, Daddy is a loving alternative.

It's compounded in my case by the fact that DH is a SAHD who is with the baby all day. I would love to relieve him at night, and I do my best to, but I also have a demanding new job and I am often up very late trying to meet deadlines.

Anyway, thanks again.


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