# An interesting observation re: TV watching



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I don't limit my children's TV watching. They probably watch way more than average, I think they watch 2-4 hours a day. They are awake for 11 hours so I figure they aren't watching a lot more than they are. They regulate their own TV watching and turn it off when they are done and go play. My friends children are the exact same age as mine, their birthdays are within a month of my children's, and they are only allowed to watch 1 hour a day at most. But whenever we are over playing both of her kids are constantly asking to turn the TV on whereas my children can play for hours without even noticing that there is a TV. So my friend spends her time telling them no you can't watch and her kids keep asking. I am starting to think my theory is right - if I let them choose how much they want to watch and let them regulate it themselves then it doesn't become so important to them. I do monitor what they watch of course. Like I said they do watch quite a bit but to them it is just another part of their day. If I told them TV was bad they wouldn't have a clue what I meant - its just another thing they do - watch TV, do crafts, go to playgroup, play outside, play games, etc.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I've chosen a much more complete solution to the dilemma of whether to limit TV ot not-- I've thrown the thing out. Works great.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

We don't watch TV M-F. It's me- but the kids don't care because TV has never been a real part of their lives. That box is too damn annoying to lsiten to yammer on for hours. the laugh tracks, the commercials, the snotty kids and cruel parents. That sick little Calliou! Ug! The kids watch a movie on the weekend. But they rarely turn it on otherwise. I can't tell you how grateful I am not to be subjected to the horrible sound of Sat morning cartoons. My kids didn't grow up watching a lot of TV. we only got one when our second child arrived.

Perhaps your theory holds true-- kids who watch can turn it off, and kids who don't watch can't turn away from it when they have access. i don't know. But then there are other kids who don't watch and don't care to watch. Which is the camp mine fall into.

I'm not a forbidder, my kids know Bart & Lisa, and Spongebob, but neither do i have the stomach for an intrusive thing like a TV on all the time. I almost jumped off the roof of my house when my youngest got wind of Teletubbies from a friend. I suffered through more Teletubbies videos than I care to recall. it almost did me in. 'Again again again again!".


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

I've made the opposite observation - in my experience it's been those who had restricted TV who turn away, & those who have unrestricted access who don't.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Interesting. We allow Goo to watch about 1 hour in the afternoons if she wants, but she has to turn it off at the end of the hour. I find she only asks for tv when she is over stimulated and needs to be a couch potato. I don't blame her. I get that way too!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Yea, there is no magic formula, no perfect solution. Kids have different temperments and so will respond very differently to the same parenting practices, which is why we have to adapt our practices to them. One hour TV limit is a parenting practice that many children would respond favorably too (learning moderation in TV and never experiencing the forbidden fruit thing). Clearly your friends' children are not responding to it and your friend should try something different. Your practice works great for your kids, but wouldn't work for all kids.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

My sons would be in front of the television all day if I didn't limit it. My daughter on the other hand has never really been interested in the t.v. She would rather be outside all day.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My oldest can watch whatever and whenever too, and she rarely asks now. I think unrestricted is the way to go - though we recently had to tell her no South Park after some embarrassing incidents.









When I was a child I was not allowed to eat any kind of sugar or basically anything I liked. So when I went to friends' houses, I was always sneaking in the kitchen and making PBJ sandwiches and sucking honey right out of the bottle. The kids who were allowed to have some sugar didn't do that. So we don't restrict sugar either.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
When I was a child I was not allowed to eat any kind of sugar or basically anything I liked. So when I went to friends' houses, I was always sneaking in the kitchen and making PBJ sandwiches and sucking honey right out of the bottle. The kids who were allowed to have some sugar didn't do that. So we don't restrict sugar either.

I know of a family that was the same way. When they would come to a potluck they would eat ALL the dessert first and nobody else would get any







:

I have allowed maybe one movie a week and am finding the girls are playing more creativily since I have done that. Before that they wcould watch at least 2 movies a day.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
My oldest can watch whatever and whenever too, and she rarely asks now. I think unrestricted is the way to go.

When I was a child I was not allowed to eat any kind of sugar or basically anything I liked. So when I went to friends' houses, I was always sneaking in the kitchen and making PBJ sandwiches and sucking honey right out of the bottle. The kids who were allowed to have some sugar didn't do that. So we don't restrict sugar either.

my parents were PERFECT in terms of providing lots of healthy food but never forbidding suger or junk food.

Guess what - I would sneak candy bars and sugary foods when I babysat and todya CANNOT have candy or cookies in the house as I will eat them all immediatly. Moderation and lack of restriction is not the easy answer for all all kids. Honestly, I believe there are a HUGE genetic and tempermental variables when it comes to food and TV etc.

If my kids take after me, they are going to have food issues. And I dread all the "knowing" mamas and grandmas shaking thier heads at the potluck and saying to each other it is because we are too restricticting or too permissive or whatever.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think it comes down to different kids reacting differently. I think some people really do need more guidance/restriction than others whether it be TV, food, alcohol, or gambling.

We don't put a lot of time limit on dd's TV viewing... as long as it isn't all she is doing with her time and she is watching something we deem appropriate. She doesn't pester me to watch TV. In her case I think self-regulation with TV generally is fine. With sweets and junk food I think she needs more restriction. If it isn't in the house she doesn't ask for it but if it is here that is all she wants to eat until it is gone.


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## jeanieloz (Sep 30, 2004)

When I was younger I had a friend who's family didn' have a TV. It was against their religion, but when she would come over to our house all she wanted to do was watch TV, she would watch anything and become a TV zombie... I would be outside playing and she'd be watching TV with my grandma!
I restrict what my kids are allowed to watch, and how much, but really they would rather be outside playing. My #2 son can be very TV Zombieish when it comes to TV. He will watch anything! I have caught him trying to sneak in TV time! My oldest will scan what's on, find that nothing is on, and turn the TV off. They do play creatively, and do many other things besides being inside all day watching TV, like some kids in my neighborhood. Plus we don't have cable or satelite, so that may inhibit the desire to watch even more TV.
Donna


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Mine can watch whatever, whenever, for however long they choose. There are no restrictions on media at our house really.







We watch alot of TV compared to someone else probably. That being said, my kids can turn it of and go do something else without worry that they won't get "any more TV time" etc. My friends kids (who have thier TV choices made for them by their parents) are often glued to the TV for as long as the screen is on. They feel if they aren't, they could lose their chance or something.

Alot goes into the response kids have to TV watching, restrictions and the like. Kids are individuals. The children being in charge of their own media is just another aspect of how we live our lives (in our family). It's basically how we do everything.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

As someone who is interested in unschooling, it makes sense to allow my children to have free reign over what they do in the home, whether it be what to eat and when, what to wear, or how much TV to watch. Maybe we can even bring back South Park when they are old enough to understand what language not to use in public. :LOL

When I lived with my dad, the rules about sugar were a lot more relaxed. He found a stash of candy bars under my bed that I had taken from the freezer, and told me I didn't need to sneak; I could have one whenever I asked. I never had another one for as long as I lived with him.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

I wonder how it works if there is just no TV available... we moved the TV out of the playroom when my DD was about 6 mo and starting to just stare at it whenever it was on. She has only watched it a handful of times with us and will occasionally ask to see "LaLa" (her word for Elmo). We will pop in the DVD and she'll sit for a few minutes and then it is off to something else because she doesn't sit still for long (unless there are stickers involved).

I wonder if not having a TV as part of her regular environment, but not restricting will work? I hope so, my DH is a MJOR couch potato, so much so that he doesn't get things done and I hope my DD doesn't go that route.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

If my kids take after me, they are going to have food issues
Same here. DD1 (3) already has food "issues" in that she tends to pig out on foods she really likes. And, we have done everything "right" by all the books/ reccomendations as how to prevent food issues (ie. nursing on demand, only having mostly healthy foods in the house, but not having anything restricted or limited, offering a wide variety of healthy foods, not making any foods more desirable than others, a blase attitude towards different foods (no cleaning your plate, or eat this before dessert type thing)) We really strived to have a healthy attitude towards food, but when she is around a food she really likes, she tends to pig out. I think some people just like to eat more than others. That is all there is too it. I think everyone enjoys eating, but some people much more than others. In my family there were 5 of us, all raised the same way yet we have different attitudes towards foods. For example, both my brothers and my sister sometimes forget to eat and really don't put much thought into food. My dh can also go all day and forget to eat. If he is busy, sometimes I have to remind him to eat lunch or whatever. I have never, ever, ever forgotten to eat in my life and I love food.

DD2 is only 6 months, but already I think she will be more blase about food. She goes much longer in between nursing than dd1 did and is not nearly into boobie the way my 3 year old was and still is.

I think the same can be said for tv or computer. I can easily regulate my tv or computer usage, and don't tend to use it much, while dh and my brothers if given the opportunity will be on the computer all day.

I think some people are just more naturally attracted to certain things like food, tv, computer etc. and vary greatly in their ability to self-regulate regardless of how they were raised, really.


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## Willowrose (Jan 24, 2005)

I think, like all other things, it is fine in moderation. For our family, moderation is an hour a day or a whole DVD as a family. We do make exceptions when we bring dvd's for the car ride when traveling.
My younger son has NO interest in tv. Older son could take it or leave it. He would play outside over tv anyday. We have never put a lot of emphasis on tv. We don't condemn it like some families and we don't leave it on all day like others. Its just not a big deal in our family and thats the way the boys treat it as well.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

Ds is allowed to watch about 1 hr a day. He usually chooses to watch it first thing in the morning. I have never had a problem with him seeking out TV at other people's houses. He is far more interested in playing with whatever toys the other child has that he doesn't have at home.

I grew up in a household with no TV. As children, yes, we did go right for the TV whenever we were at other people's homes. I think it was just because it was such a novelty for us. However, every one of us were/are also avid readers. Now that we are adults, all of us watch varying degrees of TV. I watch maybe 1-2 hrs a day, depending on the day. Some days it's virtually none--I don't have the TV on during the day at all until late afternoon while I'm getting dinner ready, if at all. I only watch in the evenings if there's a specific show I want to watch, which usually only happens about once week.

As far as sugar, I grew up in a home where we ate healthy, whole-grain food most of the time. My dad was diabetic, so we didn't buy a lot of junk food, but it wasn't off-limits. If we wanted something sweet, we could get out the cookbook and make something. I have one brother who would eat sugar straight out of the sugar bowl--I wouldn't be surprised if he still does that! I have a terrible sweet tooth and am another one of those who can't have it in the house or I eat it all.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

Nothing like a forbidden activity to make us want to do it more!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
That box is too damn annoying to lsiten to yammer on for hours. the laugh tracks, the commercials, the snotty kids and cruel parents.

I agree! My solution, is to leave it on, but I turn the volume down all the way low, and leave the closed captions on. That way, if I watch it, I really have to focus on it and read the captions. Most of the time, we go about our business and ignore it. However, I do put my dd's favorites on for her. (Sesame Street, Mr. Rodgers and Barney). Even though I personally can't stand the purple dino, she loves it and it makes her happy. She likes to sing along, and learn the dances, so she does actively watch. I don't restrict anything, but the channel never lands on the cable cartoon channels. It is surprising how violent and obnoxious shows aimed at kids are these days!

My dh likes to watch the usual guy shows with killing, cars roaring and violence. I really try to encourage him to change his tastes now that we have children.


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## Laziza (Jan 19, 2005)

This is funny... This will probably anger some people, but my parents had much the same approach to alcohol consumption when I was younger. I could always have a sip of their wine if I wanted. Wine coolers were treated kind of like pop -- I wasn't allowed too much, but I could have one if I wanted. I think that, as a result of alcohol never being treated as too big a deal or a forbidden fruit, I didn't go crazy in my teenage and college years. I could/can always take it or leave it, and I really think it was my parents' approach that caused that. Sounds like you're doing basically the same thing, and all I can say is: worked for me.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laziza*
This is funny... This will probably anger some people, but my parents had much the same approach to alcohol consumption when I was younger. I could always have a sip of their wine if I wanted. Wine coolers were treated kind of like pop -- I wasn't allowed too much, but I could have one if I wanted. I think that, as a result of alcohol never being treated as too big a deal or a forbidden fruit, I didn't go crazy in my teenage and college years. I could/can always take it or leave it, and I really think it was my parents' approach that caused that. Sounds like you're doing basically the same thing, and all I can say is: worked for me.

















: I was raised the same way by my dad about alcohol and talking about sex, too. Not the xrated stuff but if I had questions about sex he answered them truthfully as if it was no big deal. I've never been drunk in my life.

TV was the same way with me. I do screen what we watch on TV with kids around, but otherwise it's no big deal. Abi can take or leave TV. She'd rather play outside.


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I was just talking to my sister about this a night or two ago! My neice is two and watches t.v. She limits it herself. She'll ask to watch something, my sister will turn it on for her, and after a few minutes she gets bored and turns it off.

I agree with the pp's who have said that if they have the option they won't be glued to it like they would if they never had it. I so think that if a child is extremely limited in those things or made to think that it is bad or evil or wrong or whatever then they only want it more and begin to grow a fixation for it. JMO.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I've noticed this pattern over and over and over again- with my friends, family, my own childhood, and with every child I've taken care of:
the children who do not have restrictions on TV choose to watch a few select shows that interest them, and will watch TV when they are very tired or sick.
The children who have limitations placed on TV are obsessed with it or at least much, much more interested in watching it at all times.
That's not to say that there needn't be limits on television _content_, but I've seen proof in enough examples to know that limiting TV just makes it a bigger deal than it should be.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

IMO, it's very much personality driven. My 5yo DS would watch TV all day long if I let him, my 3yo DD gets bored after 5 minutes.

Just like everything else in parenting, you have to use what works with YOUR kids- cuz everyone is different.


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## prana (Sep 27, 2004)

e


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## angel04345 (Apr 20, 2004)

I don't limit DD and she is an extreme example of a couch potato. So I don't know I am considering taking the tv away for a while.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

I don't limit my son and he could take it or leave it. When he leaves it, we turn it off or down. If he needs a little veg time, he's welcome to sit in front of it. Of course, it only boils down to 1-2 hours a day at most, but he never begs for it.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laziza*
This is funny... This will probably anger some people, but my parents had much the same approach to alcohol consumption when I was younger. I could always have a sip of their wine if I wanted. Wine coolers were treated kind of like pop -- I wasn't allowed too much, but I could have one if I wanted. I think that, as a result of alcohol never being treated as too big a deal or a forbidden fruit, I didn't go crazy in my teenage and college years. I could/can always take it or leave it, and I really think it was my parents' approach that caused that. Sounds like you're doing basically the same thing, and all I can say is: worked for me.









My parents were the same way, however, I have struggled with controlling substance use since I was 17. Addiction runs strong in my family and although my parents were not affected, I was. I have to disagree that alcoholism is nurture... I believe that it is mostly genetic and that what you describe could be very harmful if a child has the genetic predisposition.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

The thing with the no TV kids that get sucked in when it is available is that you can't guess how long it will last. Meaning, don't think that they will watch it all day everyday when it is there. The novelty will wear off and they will be back to their other activities. You can't judge based on how a kid acts for a few hours (or a few days). My ds, who will be 4 in August, watches unlimited PBS. At this point, he has seen each episode multiple times and he is bored. He has gone thru light and heavy periods of TV watching in his life. I don't think you can judge how a child will handle TV watching based on what they do at age 2 or 3. Don't think that your 2 or 3 year old doesn't watch much and feel smug because that might change in a year. There is so much that happens developmentally at this age that I would be concerned if a child was watching hours of TV a day because there are other things that they need to be doing. I think it helps that the adults in this house don't model TV watching as a way to occupy time. I'm confident that reading will be more appealing to my ds than TV watching once he learns to read.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*
My parents were the same way, however, I have struggled with controlling substance use since I was 17. Addiction runs strong in my family and although my parents were not affected, I was. I have to disagree that alcoholism is nurture... I believe that it is mostly genetic and that what you describe could be very harmful if a child has the genetic predisposition.

I'm actually thinking that much of what we are talking about in this thread is genetic. It isn't surprising that mothers who don't have issues with food or TV would become mothers who wouldn't feel compelled to restrict these things for their kids. Their kids, inheriting their mothers' temperments genetically and nurture-wise, wouldn't have issues with TV or food. But the causal link isn't between lack of restriction and no issues, but between parents passing on (genetically and via example) thier own temperments that are predisposed to moderation towards food and veg time.

Parents (and thus thier kids) predisposed to overindulge in food and veg time cannot simply go the "no restriction" route and expect moderation to result.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Interesting...

I can't limit my own tv how can I limit his? I can't stand for the house to be quiet. I need the background noise. SO, it is on but low.

My mom was the same way. SHe has the tv on at all times. Actually, I think she'll have all of the tvs they own on at the same time. We tried to go tv free or limited and I went crazy!

I'm about to try and limit it again. Just to see if I can get over the hump.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

my problem with self-regulated TV watching, is, what do you do when you have a lot of kids? the voracious TV watchers want it on all day, the bookworm ones wouldn't choose that, but since the other kid wants it on all day, the bookworm one ends up reading less and watching TV along with the voracious TV watchers. There have been studies done that when a TV is on in a room it is nearly impossible not to look at it. try it.. pput on the TV, sit across from it, and for the next 30 minutes try not to look at it. even if you can tune it out a lot, you will still keep glancing at it.

my rule is no TV until after 3 o'clock, then it is largely self regulated but they do watch more than I wish they would.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
I am starting to think my theory is right

I think that comparing your kids to one other family's kids does not a definitive conclusion make.

I don't think that anyone can say with any degree of certainty that one approach to television works for all kids.

My kids are extremely restricted in their tv viewing. Extremely restricted. It's not an issue, though, because they don't yet understand that some people just turn on the tv whenever, to watch whatever is on. But we will continue to place strict limits on tv even after they understand that they are limited. My dh and I are not big tv watchers, and we don't want tv-watching kids.

I have to be honest and say that I'm pretty shocked that a child who is not yet four is watching South Park. What possible benefit could a three-year-old get from South Park? More generally, why would we have kids vegetating in front of the tv to watch a show that they wouldn't really understand?

Namaste!


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laziza*
This is funny... This will probably anger some people, but my parents had much the same approach to alcohol consumption when I was younger. I could always have a sip of their wine if I wanted. Wine coolers were treated kind of like pop -- I wasn't allowed too much, but I could have one if I wanted. I think that, as a result of alcohol never being treated as too big a deal or a forbidden fruit, I didn't go crazy in my teenage and college years. I could/can always take it or leave it, and I really think it was my parents' approach that caused that. Sounds like you're doing basically the same thing, and all I can say is: worked for me.










My parents NEVER got drunk but there where certain foods that warrented having beer or wine with them. I was always allowed a sip or two of their drink. Never have gotten drunk nor have I had the desire to . I like wine coolers but cant stand beer or wine. I think my parents taught me responsiblity in drinking.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
There have been studies done that when a TV is on in a room it is nearly impossible not to look at it. try it.. put on the TV, sit across from it, and for the next 30 minutes try not to look at it. even if you can tune it out a lot, you will still keep glancing at it.

That is definitely true for me. I hate visiting people who keep the TV on when we come over. I can't ignore it. No real conversations happen. It is nice having the TV in an out of the way (and not very comfortable







) part of the house.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

I have really appreciated this thread and another one in the Toddler forum. It has really got me thinking about the choices DH and I have made for our son. I have a more focused understanding of why we have made the choices we have.

I agree that not all children are able to healthly monitor their tv watching. I agree that it has to do with personality/genetics.

But, I do think the ideal,in our house, is to have our children monitor their own watching. I think learning how to self-regulate in life is essential. We plan on being aware of what our children watch and if we think they are watching too much, have a meeting to explain our concerns and problem solve with them. I do believe that television (and video games - DH can become very addicted to video games) can be addictive and if our children are not able to self monitor even with our gentle guidance, restrictions will be made.

I am not comfortable having a no tv policy because their is a _potential_ for tv abuse. We will problem solve, and have important learning experiences, when or if, a problem arises.

Meowee - great point about what do you do with several children and their varied abilities to self-regulate. I'm not sure.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have to be honest and say that I'm pretty shocked that a child who is not yet four is watching South Park. What possible benefit could a three-year-old get from South Park? More generally, why would we have kids vegetating in front of the tv to watch a show that they wouldn't really understand?

Namaste!

Well in families that allow children to decide what they want to watch South Park is an option just like other things would be. Sometimes TV watching isn't about any benefit other than the viewer is enjoying themselves.









My kids watch South Park, and sometimes if Dd (11.5) doesn't "get" the joke she will ask her older brother or me/Dh. For an almost 4 year old I imagine it would just be silly humor to them that they probably don't really get, and probably don't really care if they get. It's animated, and they sing alot lol.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

They'd get all the gross-out body humor of Southpark. That stuff is the pinnacle of funny for a todler. My friend laughs that "kaka" was her son's first joke. He'd say "mama, mama . . . Kaka" and just crack up


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I'm actually thinking that much of what we are talking about in this thread is genetic. It isn't surprising that mothers who don't have issues with food or TV would become mothers who wouldn't feel compelled to restrict these things for their kids. Their kids, inheriting their mothers' temperments genetically and nurture-wise, wouldn't have issues with TV or food. But the causal link isn't between lack of restriction and no issues, but between parents passing on (genetically and via example) thier own temperments that are predisposed to moderation towards food and veg time.

Parents (and thus thier kids) predisposed to overindulge in food and veg time cannot simply go the "no restriction" route and expect moderation to result.

I think you are right!


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I don't think that tv watching necessarily has much to do with the home environment. I watched tv all the time as a child and a teen, but my mother almost never watched it and often encouraged me to do something else. I didn't form a strong hate for tv until I flunked out of my first semester of college because I couldn't stop watching it. I got rid of the tv after that and though we have one now I don't let my daughter watch much of it because I believe that what you do a lot you get used to and watching tv is not something that I find to have much value for us. I would rather read and frankly so would she, she will sit and let me read to her for hours and be happy, after 10 or 15 minutes of tv watching she is in a bad mood and becomes very whiny so I am considering getting rid of the tv all together.
Moderation did indeed work for me both in how much veg time I need and in how much junk food I eat, everyone has the will power to use moderation, it depends more on whether they want to use it or not.


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## MaryBethMoore (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia*
I've made the opposite observation - in my experience it's been those who had restricted TV who turn away, & those who have unrestricted access who don't.

I have two who turn away and one who doesn't.

Mary Beth of Paul (8), Harry (7), and Timmy (3)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

So, your kids watch up to *TWENTY-EIGHT* hours of TV per week, and somehow you're............ happy? about that?

That's like saying, "My kid eats up to 5,000 calories per day, but then I saw him pass up a piece of chocolate cake after that! Wow, what a self-regulator!"

Sorry Mama, I'm not impressed.

I feel guilty if my kids watch more than 1/2 hour of TV per day.

Your kids wouldn't even have to "self-regulate" the TV if you had never introduced them to it in the first place.

I'm in the middle of reading _Unconditional Parenting_ and, from what I am gathering, the opposite of being a controlling parent ISN'T being an overly permissive one. In fact, being too controlling and too permissive are often the same side of the coin.

There is SOOOOOOOO much in their worlds that they are missing when they are in front of that box. You are not doing them any favors by letting them sit there that often.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
So, your kids watch up to *TWENTY-EIGHT* hours of TV per week, and somehow you're............ happy? about that?

That's like saying, "My kid eats up to 5,000 calories per day, but then I saw him pass up a piece of chocolate cake after that! Wow, what a self-regulator!"

Sorry Mama, I'm not impressed.

I feel guilty if my kids watch more than 1/2 hour of TV per day.

Your kids wouldn't even have to "self-regulate" the TV if you had never introduced them to it in the first place.

I'm in the middle of reading _Unconditional Parenting_ and, from what I am gathering, the opposite of being a controlling parent ISN'T being an overly permissive one. In fact, being too controlling and too permissive are often the same side of the coin.

There is SOOOOOOOO much in their worlds that they are missing when they are in front of that box. You are not doing them any favors by letting them sit there that often.

Boy, your well thought out and researched post really struck a cord with me. I'm going to turn off my tv right now and never let my son see it again.







I'd hate to speak for anyone else, but I don't think anyone was asking for you to be impressed or judgmental, for that matter. Sharing facts and personal opinions about your own situation is one thing, but being rude is another.

The OP, myself, and many others have found that tv isn't evil in OUR FAMILIES.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*

The OP, myself, and many others have found that tv isn't evil in OUR FAMILIES.


Hmmm......I don't recall saying that TV is "evil."

But the OP went beyond saying, "Just to let you know, my kids watch up to 4 hours per day."

She said, in essence, that her children are such well-regulated TV watchers (as *opposed* to the other family she mentioned) because they've been allowed to watch up to 4 hours per day! There's just a sad irony in that.

28 hours per week is the equivalent of a part-time job!!


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

My son is allowed very limited TV, and we are cutting down to none. He never has asked to watch TV at someone else's house or wanted to turn the TV on when friends are here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia*
I've made the opposite observation - in my experience it's been those who had restricted TV who turn away, & those who have unrestricted access who don't.









:


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Well.

I don't think TV is 'evil'. Monsanto is evil...

My kids watch sometimes, although not much.

They have been to WDW and have seen Finding Nemo more times than any child should.









My fault. It's my current fav laundry-folding movie.

But heck.

I didn't add it up when I read the OP







, but 28 hours sitting on your bum is a lot of time sitting on your bum.

I am such a gray area.







:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
So, your kids watch up to *TWENTY-EIGHT* hours of TV per week, and somehow you're............ happy? about that?

Well, I wouldn't be happy _or_ upset about it. It's just a so what thing for some people. We watch several hours of TV a week at my house, and it's not an issue.









Quote:

I feel guilty if my kids watch more than 1/2 hour of TV per day.
Sorry to hear that. It must be very uncomfortable. Guilt is no fun.

Quote:

Your kids wouldn't even have to "self-regulate" the TV if you had never introduced them to it in the first place.

I'm in the middle of reading _Unconditional Parenting_ and, from what I am gathering, the opposite of being a controlling parent ISN'T being an overly permissive one. In fact, being too controlling and too permissive are often the same side of the coin.
I can only speak for myself here, but some parents don't find it "overly permissive" to allow kids to make their own TV decisions.

Quote:

There is SOOOOOOOO much in their worlds that they are missing when they are in front of that box. You are not doing them any favors by letting them sit there that often.
There is always something that is being missed. We make choices like that everyday. If I choose a turkey sandwich over a bowl of chili for lunch than I am missing the chili. If I choose to go hiking over working on my painting then I am missing out on the painting for that afternoon. If I decide to watch TV over reading a book or going dancing... well you get the idea. My point is there are choices and decisions that must be made every day, and children should get to make them too IMO.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I didn't add it up when I read the OP , but 28 hours sitting on your bum is a lot of time sitting on your bum.
But, for families interested in unschooling, if it's what the child chooses, doesn't that trump all else? As long as the child has plenty of other things to choose from, if he chooses TV, shouldn't he be allowed that?

I want my children to do what makes them happy. Sometimes my dd does watch 4 hours of PBS, and sometimes she doesn't want to watch any TV. I guess matts_mamamama and I will probably meet up at some convention for mothers of overweight lazy criminals. :LOL


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But, for families interested in unschooling, if it's what the child chooses, doesn't that trump all else? As long as the child has plenty of other things to choose from, if he chooses TV, shouldn't he be allowed that?

I don't think all unschoolers take this point of view. Some have no limits on TV and others do limit TV. From the little I've read, it seems to be a controversial area in unschooling. Unschooling, from what I've read, doesn't necessarily mean the child can do whatever he wants.

As far as the OP and everything, I do think that personality has more to do with it than anything. I'm pretty strict with TV viewing in our house and my older child has never asked to watch TV away from home. A little relative of mine has grown up with unlimited TV (quantity and content) and he is always asking to watch TV at our house.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
Interesting...
I can't stand for the house to be quiet. I need the background noise. SO, it is on but low.

We're actually the same way. Dh, the kids, and I seem to be happier with background noise. I've found that playing some fun kids CDs or some of our regular CDs solves that problem. I was able to drastically reduce TV viewing by weaning us to music.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*


There is always something that is being missed. We make choices like that everyday. If I choose a turkey sandwich over a bowl of chili for lunch than I am missing the chili. If I choose to go hiking over working on my painting then I am missing out on the painting for that afternoon. If I decide to watch TV over reading a book or going dancing... well you get the idea. My point is there are choices and decisions that must be made every day, and children should get to make them too IMO.












Responding to UnSchoolMa and Greaseball:

Sure. But a sandwich is comparable to chili..........

hiking is comparable to painting.........

but watching TV is like choosing to eat cake.........it's good, I allow my children to choose it sometimes, but multiple times a day? I think not.

And children need to explore....which means using as many senses as possible and as many brain cells as possible. You don't have to look very far to find research stating that four hours of TV per day is detrimental to the development of children.

And if you don't consider four hours a day of TV watching excessively permissive, then what, exactly, do you consider too permissive? I'm curious.

I believe, to a great extent, in taking children and their choices seriously. But we're still their parents. Their choices have to be guided. So, no, I don't think that what they want to do should "trump all else" all of the time.

Sometimes kids have TOO MANY CHOICES. When I stayed with my grandparents, I was allowed to watch as much TV as I wanted to. But, there were only three fuzzy black and white channels, so it wasn't very interesting. I didn't watch much--certainly not 4 hours per day. Having what we do in the way of TV--- 24 hour satellite or cable, color shows, lots of cartoons, it's like having a candy store open all of the time. It's just too much. (Why do I keep using food analogies? It just seems to fit.)

Again, it wasn't just the OP saying that her kids watch X hours of TV per day that I found disturbing. It was her saying that BECAUSE they watch X hours of TV per day that they are somehow better in their TV watching than the kids who are more restricted!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I suppose if my kids wanted to sit on their bums 28 hours a week, i'd work it out in my own head. They have never been that intersted in TV and none of them are shrinking violets or afraid to speak their minds. I'll cross that bridge respectfully if i ever come to it. TV has never been a hot topic here.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We don't watch much TV to speak of, and the shows we do watch often come on well after a baby/small child would be asleep (hopefully :LOL) so I don't think it will be a problem at all in the early years...

honestly, we haven't really mapped out her whole life, which is good!...but we can safely say that we are not planning to let our daughter watch TV under the age of 2...

There are a lot of posts arguing letting your child make their own "decisions" and while I am completely on board with that...I can also safely say that I really don't trust the decisions of a one year old, assuming of course, they are capable of making thought out, concious decisions....In other words, jumping off the top of the couch on to the coffee table seemed like a great decision to my toddler nephew (years ago, he is 17 now)...and well, a trip to the hospital and a few stitches later.....you get the idea...

For now, we plan on just not having it be an issue, we don't plan on having the TV on when she is awake anyway...which will be easy, as it is hardly ever on to begin with...and will revisit the issue when she is over 2 years old...

I like this site a lot:

http://www.whitedot.org/issue/iss_front.asp


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Again, it wasn't just the OP saying that her kids watch X hours of TV per day that I found disturbing. It was her saying that BECAUSE they watch X hours of TV per day that they are somehow better in their TV watching than the kids who are more restricted!
But maybe they are.

Maybe some kids do just fine with several hours of TV a day, and some kids just shut down. I'm sure any of us here would not sit back and let our kids do things that were harmful to themselves. Why does it have to be only one way - watching x hours of TV in x amount of time = harm?


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
So, your kids watch up to *TWENTY-EIGHT* hours of TV per week, and somehow you're............ happy? about that?

That's like saying, "My kid eats up to 5,000 calories per day, but then I saw him pass up a piece of chocolate cake after that! Wow, what a self-regulator!"

Thank you! I was reading this and kept WAITING for someone to bring this up. Amen, sister!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Greaseball Why does it have to be only one way - watching x hours of TV in x amount of time = harm?[/QUOTE said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The exact formula of what hours per day will equal what amount of harm? No, I don't have it. But FOUR HOURS PER DAY??? COME ON!!!
> 
> GriffinsMom, thanks for backing me up!


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
I don't limit my children's TV watching. They probably watch way more than average, I think they watch 2-4 hours a day. They are awake for 11 hours so I figure they aren't watching a lot more than they are. They regulate their own TV watching and turn it off when they are done and go play. My friends children are the exact same age as mine, their birthdays are within a month of my children's, and they are only allowed to watch 1 hour a day at most. But whenever we are over playing both of her kids are constantly asking to turn the TV on whereas my children can play for hours without even noticing that there is a TV. So my friend spends her time telling them no you can't watch and her kids keep asking. I am starting to think my theory is right - if I let them choose how much they want to watch and let them regulate it themselves then it doesn't become so important to them. I do monitor what they watch of course. Like I said they do watch quite a bit but to them it is just another part of their day. If I told them TV was bad they wouldn't have a clue what I meant - its just another thing they do - watch TV, do crafts, go to playgroup, play outside, play games, etc.


Sounds like my house.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
but watching TV is like choosing to eat cake.........it's good, I allow my children to choose it sometimes, but multiple times a day? I think not.

See that's the difference here I think. My kids are free to choose cake whenever they want as well.









Quote:

And if you don't consider four hours a day of TV watching excessively permissive, then what, exactly, do you consider too permissive? I'm curious.
I guess I don't think of it in terms of permissive. We just operate differently here. TV (and cake) isn't something we feel the need to control for the kids. We don't control their book choices or how often they read them either, and we don't see that as permissive. I get to choose what to read or watch and how much & I believe they should be able to choose too.

Quote:

I believe, to a great extent, in taking children and their choices seriously. But we're still their parents. Their choices have to be guided.
Guided yes, decided for them, no not really (IMO of course)

Quote:

Again, it wasn't just the OP saying that her kids watch X hours of TV per day that I found disturbing. It was her saying that BECAUSE they watch X hours of TV per day that they are somehow better in their TV watching than the kids who are more restricted!
I see what you are saying, and I think I understand the problem you had with the comparison now. I just meant that kids watching 20+ hours a week isn't a problem for some.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
The exact formula of what hours per day will equal what amount of harm? No, I don't have it. But FOUR HOURS PER DAY??? COME ON!!

Do _you_ know that 4 hours a day is harmful to _my_ child? I'd be very interested to know how you know...

Remember that most kids' shows start very early. If my dd starts watching TV at 7 or 8 am and is done by 11 or noon, and then we have a whole day ahead of us for going to the park and dancing to music and baking and painting...how exactly is she being harmed?

She eats cake whenever she wants too.







So do I, for that matter.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
See that's the difference here I think. My kids are free to choose cake whenever they want as well.










This has me curious, if you don't mind me asking a few more questions about it. How often do you have cake available in the house? Every day? What if they wanted it before meals, or instead of meals? What if they were getting noticeably fatter because of all that cake eating?

To me, "taking children seriously" (if that is what we are talking about) doesn't mean letting them eat all of the cake or watch all of the TV that they want to. To me, it means something like the exchange I just had with my toddler:

Ds: "Mom, I'm still hungry and thirsty."

Me: Would you like some water? We just brushed your teeth, so perhaps we should wait until tomorrow to eat more."

Ds: "Mom, I'm hungry!"

Me: "Well, you may have a banana. But then we'll have to brush your teeth again. Do you understand?"

Ds: "Yes." (Happy to get a banana.)

So, I took his hunger seriously. (Obviously certain parents would have said, "No! Meal time's over!" That, to me, is too controlling.)

Anyway, UnSchoolMa, if you care to share more about how it works at your house, that would be great.


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
how exactly is she being harmed?









Seriously? This needs an answer? Really?

OK then...

ADHD, Obesity, Etc.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GriffinsMom*







Seriously? This needs an answer? Really?

OK then...

ADHD, Obesity, Etc.

My child is not obese and does not have any psychological disorder. She was also not part of any research to prove this, so I remain unconvinced. And we are not the only family who allows TV (and sweets) and still somehow manages to have children without health problems.

Once again, I think I know my child a little bit better than anyone else knows her.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But, for families interested in unschooling, if it's what the child chooses, doesn't that trump all else? As long as the child has plenty of other things to choose from, if he chooses TV, shouldn't he be allowed that?

I want my children to do what makes them happy. L

Happy short term, or happy long term?

And why should TV be part of the "choice package" one's child has, anyway? What has, in the last 50 years, turned television from a mere novelty to something so sacrosanct that no proper unschooling parent should be without it?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And Greaseball, even though I keep responding to you, my original post on this thread wasn't about you or even about what you are saying. If that much TV works for your family, then I guess that much TV works for your family.

But the OP using other kids' interest in a TV set as a JUSTIFICATION for that much TV time is just unbelievable.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I do have to say, at the risk of being caught in the crossfire (jk) that in my experience...MY EXPERIENCE...so I am not making huge claims to what the whole country thinks....but in my experience, when we tell people we are not planning on letting our daughter watch any television until at least the age of 2...and then probably very limited (if even that)....almost EVERYONE we have told this in mainstream society (and even so-called *crunchier* people too) have really acted shocked, as if we were planning on denying our daughter the most basic of human rights or something...seriously...

So I can relate to this comment:

Quote:

And why should TV be part of the "choice package" one's child has, anyway? What has, in the last 50 years, turned television from a mere novelty to something so sacrosanct that no proper unschooling parent should be without it?
That just annoys me when I get that reaction...which hasn't been a rare reaction, it has been very common...


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
This has me curious, if you don't mind me asking a few more questions about it. How often do you have cake available in the house? Every day? What if they wanted it before meals, or instead of meals? What if they were getting noticeably fatter because of all that cake eating?

We have cake, cake mix, or the stuff to make cake available most of the time. We also have other snack type stuff available. Ice cream, chips, etc. They can and do eat it before meals or instead of a meal. Dd had chocolate chip mint ice cream at 5 pm tonight. An hour later she made a burrito. Weight fluctuates naturally during childhood (and both kids are in puberty currently...) so it would have to be a marked difference for me to be concerned. If I was concerned for their health I would say so, and I would try to get their thoughts on the subject.

Quote:

To me, "taking children seriously" (if that is what we are talking about) doesn't mean letting them eat all of the cake or watch all of the TV that they want to.
Yea we are TCS'ers. To me it means (among other things) that the children make their own choices about food and media.

Quote:

So, I took his hunger seriously. (Obviously certain parents would have said, "No! Meal time's over!" That, to me, is too controlling.)
You did take his hunger seriously and that's great. In our house that conversation would have gone down a bit differently.
Child: Mom, im still hungry.
Parent: OK, what would you like to eat?
Then the child could list off pretty much anything we had available and be welcome to eat it. Just like I could.

Quote:

Anyway, UnSchoolMa, if you care to share more about how it works at your house, that would be great.
Sure thing







I hope I am not hijacking this thread by doing so though.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GriffinsMom*







Seriously? This needs an answer? Really?

OK then...

ADHD, Obesity, Etc.

But surely you realize that not all children or people who watch TV have these issues, right? We dig TV, so we watch it. We also like to read, so we do that too. My husband likes to research family history, and I like to be online. We don't see huge differences in these things. We just like to do them


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## JavaFinch (May 26, 2002)

I personally choose to limit my son's TV - he gets to watch a show while I work out and also at night while he has his bedtime snack. He never asks for more and has never been really obsessed with TV. I think some kids are just naturally more drawn to it for whatever reason.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I limit my son's tv, and he has never asked for tv at another person's house.

My family of origin, all of them, have the tv on all day, and none of them ever really talk to each other. I hated it growing up. I didn't watch a lot of tv. At the dinner table, my family watched tv. My chair was the one with the back to the tv. Fun (and part of the inspiration for my sig line).

I used to be more lax with tv, but it was seriously making it hard for us to get out the door for other things. Sometimes my son gets upset (generally if he's tired) about the limits set on the tv, but he's mostly fine, now that he is used to a mostly tv free life.

I have also found that PBS kids has a lot less to offer him now that he is almost 5. They seem to have things more geared towards three year olds or older kids (in the afternoon).

L.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"I have to be honest and say that I'm pretty shocked that a child who is not yet four is watching South Park."

My child has never watched South Park nor have I. I didn't say that they can watch whatever they want, I said they can watch as much as they like. What they are allowed to watch is limited.

"my problem with self-regulated TV watching, is, what do you do when you have a lot of kids?"

So far with my kids my daughter likes tv more than my son and when it is on and he doesn't want to watch he just doesn't. There is more than one room in the house.

"I would rather read and frankly so would she, she will sit and let me read to her for hours and be happy,"

My children love to read and we read to them many times a day. They both have photographic memories like mommy so they can quote the books back to us and they often "read" stories to each other.

"So, your kids watch up to TWENTY-EIGHT hours of TV per week, and somehow you're............ happy? about that? "

I'm not happy or unhappy about it. It is just another part of their lives. They are awake for 11 hours a day which equals to 77 hours a week. No it doesn't bother me that some weeks (not every week) they watch that much tv because the rest of the time they are doing other stuff.

"I feel guilty if my kids watch more than 1/2 hour of TV per day."

That is you and I'm me. If you feel guilty then you do what you feel is best.

"I'm in the middle of reading Unconditional Parenting and, from what I am gathering, the opposite of being a controlling parent ISN'T being an overly permissive one. In fact, being too controlling and too permissive are often the same side of the coin."

:LOL I'm sorry I have to laugh at that. Anyone who knows me knows I am not permissive. Just because YOU view tv watching as permissive doesn't mean I do.

"There is SOOOOOOOO much in their worlds that they are missing when they are in front of that box. You are not doing them any favors by letting them sit there that often."

Again you don't know our family and how we do things. My children explore they world. We are outside playing for more hours than we are watching tv. We read books, we do crafts, we go to playgroups, we sing, we dance, etc, etc. I don't feel I am doing them harm by allowing the to watch television. They've never been taught it is good or bad. It's just a tv and I don't give it that much power. Its just one activity out of many activities that they enjoy.

"My child is not obese and does not have any psychological disorder. She was also not part of any research to prove this, so I remain unconvinced. And we are not the only family who allows TV (and sweets) and still somehow manages to have children without health problems.

Once again, I think I know my child a little bit better than anyone else knows her."

Ditto.

"Happy short term, or happy long term?

And why should TV be part of the "choice package" one's child has, anyway? What has, in the last 50 years, turned television from a mere novelty to something so sacrosanct that no proper unschooling parent should be without it?"

I honestly do not believe my children watching television is going to make them unhappy in the long term. So when my son is 22 he's going to say, "Damn mom, I am a mess because you let me watch tv. I wish you'd controlled me and told me what to do all the time so I didn't learn how to regulate myself."








TV is a choice in my family because I don't think it is harmful. So my children are free to do what they would like with their day as long as it is not harmful or hurtful.

"But the OP using other kids' interest in a TV set as a JUSTIFICATION for that much TV time is just unbelievable."

I don't need to justify my opinions and that is not what I'm doing. This is not the first time I've seen this that children who are restricted in their tv viewing ask for it all the time. Its like dieting - if I'm dieting I'm obsessed with what I can't have. So now I don't diet, I just eat what I want and it all balances out. If I want to have a chocolate bar I eat one. Its the same thing with TV for our family. If you want to watch go ahead. It is just part of your varied diet.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
She was also not part of any research to prove this, so I remain unconvinced.

With respect, I've heard formula-feeding mothers say the same thing about the studies done on breastmilk benefits. Your child doesn't have to be part of the study for it to be sound.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

For some reason, people get really upset if they think our children are being denied the things that are part of their own childhood memories.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
....almost EVERYONE we have told this in mainstream society (and even so-called *crunchier* people too) have really acted shocked, as if we were planning on denying our daughter the most basic of human rights or something...seriously...

I get the same reaction when I tell people we don't believe in Santa. People don't seem to understand that our kids will have cherished memories that will be just as wonderful as their own. We don't need to recreate our childhoods for our kids, but it's natural to want to share with them the things that we enjoyed. But, TV is just one more thing in the great wide world and the belief that watching it is a fundamental right is pretty funny, and one that I've encountered, too.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"But, TV is just one more thing in the great wide world "

Exactly, so why should I deny my kids TV watching? It IS just one more thing in the great wide world of my children's lives.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Heavenly,
I just wanted to say that I agree w/ what you've written here.


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

I don't have any time restrictions with the TV/video games. Total my kids probably watch/play a few hours a week. We don't have cable TV, so the only thing they ever really watch is PBS and there's only a few shows they tolerate. We have a large DVD collection and they'll often ask to watch a movie in the early evening, which is a blessing for me because I'm usually zonked.

I never just have the TV on in the background. And for some reason I am disgusted at having a TV on during daylight hours, it just bothers me.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeftField*
With respect, I've heard formula-feeding mothers say the same thing about the studies done on breastmilk benefits. Your child doesn't have to be part of the study for it to be sound.

But _I_ know formula is bad for my children, and I also know TV is not necessarily bad. Sometimes I just have to trust my own judgment and not that of doctors and scientists.

Quote:

And why should TV be part of the "choice package" one's child has, anyway?
Because we have a TV in the house and our children are members of our family. If we didn't own one, they wouldn't watch at our house. But we do, and I feel it would be unfair to not allow it when I can watch as often as I want. The reason I believe in unschooling is because I think my children are the experts on what they need to be doing and learning at the moment, not me. If I thought I was the one who knew best I would not be drawn to unschooling. When my dd decides that now it's time to paint, I don't argue, I get out the paints. Same as when it's time to watch TV.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Because we have a TV in the house and our children are members of our family. If we didn't own one, they wouldn't watch at our house. But we do, and I feel it would be unfair to not allow it when I can watch as often as I want.









ITA


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Because we have a TV in the house and our children are members of our family. If we didn't own one, they wouldn't watch at our house. But we do, and I feel it would be unfair to not allow it when I can watch as often as I want. The reason I believe in unschooling is because I think my children are the experts on what they need to be doing and learning at the moment, not me. If I thought I was the one who knew best I would not be drawn to unschooling. When my dd decides that now it's time to paint, I don't argue, I get out the paints. Same as when it's time to watch TV.

I couldn't agree more.

I would no sooner say, "OK, you've already read 5 books today--that's it until tomorrow!" than I would say something similiar about tv/movies. It's all fodder for the brain.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

And when you're reading a book, you're also "sitting on your butt." I didn't have a TV in the house when I was growing up and my parents always complained about me reading too much. After school, instead of running around the neighborhood playing with friends, I'd be holed up in my room with a book. I'd get so absorbed in my books that I'd miss the school bus. My mom would set limits on how many books I could check out from the library - no more than 10 per week, and they would all be read before the week was up. Some parents will always find something wrong with what their kids are doing...

And I know "studies have shown" that your metabolism drops when you watch TV as opposed to when you read a book, but I would only be concerned about this if my kids or I were overweight, which we aren't.

Funny how the parents who don't want their kids sitting on their butts for hours watching TV have no problem with them sitting around doing homework!

People seem to think nothing can be learned from TV. Haven't many of us learned something from educational TV? Why can't kids do the same?


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Here is our deal. We have one, but we do not use it. It am not refusing my son TV. I do not have cable, but we have plug in and some videos. I simply offer more atttractive alternatives, and I let him pick. If he wants to watch TV, I might suggest reading, painting, walking to the park, making playdough, anything. Usually he will choose the later. If he was not being entertained, of course he would pick many hours of TV.

There are studies too much TV can be harmful, but I have yet to see one that shows lack of TV is harmful or that TV is beneficial to one. I keep asking, but no one delivers.







Still not sure why.

I definitely think older kids are way different than younger kids. UnSchooln, I respect your POV on this issue as I often do, but your kids are older than the OP. The practices you have for a teen may not apply to a toddler. I made much more rational and thought out decisions at 10 than I did at 5.

I have seen the argument that I have it, the adults watch as much as they want so we let the kids. Why does this apply to TV? And not other things. I have wine and liquor in my house, and I drink it whenever I want. Should my son be allowed free reign as well? I have a sewing machine, and I sew as much as I want. Should my son be allowed to sew as much as he wants even though he does not fully understand it (like most toddlers about TV)? My poor analogies are to make the point that my 2.5 year old does not know the pros and cons of TV. Sure I let him choice within reason. I never deny him what he wants to eat (if that means popsicles for breakfast then fine by me) or wants to watch, but I always offer several other options. He might he prefers to take a walk over watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I think choices are important.

The way I look at it from the OP, 28 hours is _a lot_ to watch TV IMO. From the 77 waking hours, the kids are spending almost *one third* of their waking hours watching TV







That leaves only 2/3 of the waking hours (49 hours) to eat, bathe, spend time with parents, playgroups, go to the park, play, do art activities, read, etc. That seems like so little time. Especially since my son helps me do a lot of things, like do the laundry (well he carries the quarters). Meal preparation (which my son helps with) and eating for us takes 3+ hours a day so that would leave us with 4 hours to do everything else. To me that would give the message to my son TV is as important as everything else since we spent as much time sitting in front of a box learning superficially. I would rather be teaching him for those 4 hours a day.

I guess I am thankful TV was not important in my house growing up (1 small common area TV without cable for 7 people) so I can continue to pass that down to my children.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Greaseball my issue with your PP would be brain activity. Reading and homework require it. TV does not.

Quote:

When you watch TV, brain activity switches from the left to the right hemisphere. In fact, experiments conducted by researcher Herbert Krugman showed that while viewers are watching television, the right hemisphere is twice as active as the left, a neurological anomaly. The crossover from left to right releases a surge of the body's natural opiates: endorphins, which include beta-endorphins and enkephalins. Endorphins are structurally identical to opium and its derivatives (morphine, codeine, heroin, etc.). Activities that release endorphins (also called opioid peptides) are usually habit-forming (we rarely call them addictive). These include cracking knuckles, strenuous exercise, and orgasm. External opiates act on the same receptor sites (opioid receptors) as endorphins, so there is little difference between the two.
http://www.familyresource.com/lifestyles/10/166/

Quote:

First of all, when you're watching television the higher brain regions (like the midbrain and the neo-cortex) are shut down, and most activity shifts to the lower brain regions (like the limbic system). The neurological processes that take place in these regions cannot accurately be called "cognitive." The lower or reptile brain simply stands poised to react to the environment using deeply embedded "fight or flight" response programs. Moreover, these lower brain regions cannot distinguish reality from fabricated images (a job performed by the neo-cortex), so they react to television content as though it were real, releasing appropriate hormones and so on. Studies have proven that, in the long run, too much activity in the lower brain leads to atrophy in the higher brain regions.

Nowhere can I find that reading or homework does this to your brain.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I've been following this thread and maybe I was naive, but I'm really shocked that anyone would think 28 hours a week -- 4 hours a day -- of being exposed to merciless commercial targeting is perfectly harmless for small children.

And it doesn't matter if it's PBS or videos. PBS has endorsements and commercial tie-ins now, and the vast majority of kids' videos are carefully engineered marketing ploys disguised as entertainment.

And corporations wouldn't spend billions of dollars on this kind of market targeting if it didn't work, i.e., effect your kids, the way they think and the choices they make.

And the argument that since it's there, it must be offered/allowed to the kids in eqivalency of other choices? I've got bleach and antifreeze in the house as well as orange juice and breastmilk. Should I offer all 4 of those things for my toddler to choose from next time she wants a drink?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

And the argument that since it's there, it must be offered/allowed to the kids in eqivalency of other choices? I've got bleach and antifreeze in the house as well as orange juice and breastmilk. Should I offer all 4 of those things for my toddler to choose from next time she wants a drink?
The only problem with this is it doesn't make any sense. My child has free reign over what to eat and it never occurred to me to offer the trash bin or the lint filter!







Though if I were eating lint, then I guess to be fair I'd have to give my child that right too! Gee, I hope it never comes to that!

Someone mentioned liquor...I do not keep liquor in the house and I do not drink it out of the house...so therefore I feel OK about not allowing my child to have it. (Besides, that's illegal. No one in our household has the right to do anything illegal.) I sometimes eat ice cream for breakfast; therefore my child is allowed to do this if she wants. If I don't want her to have it, then I give it up as well. That way it's fair.

And I'm still not convinced that TV-watching has ruined my child's brain or my brain...but then, maybe TV has just rotted my brain! :LOL I'm really not concerned that my child sees a bunch of cereal commercials on PBS. (She doesn't watch other networks.) She never asks for the cereals she sees...

Personally, I'd rather she watch something interesting and meaningful on TV than do a boring sheet of busywork from school.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Ok the question is why does it have to be either TV or busywork from school?

Why not real life, real world, first hand experience with the mom, dad or caretaker?

And just because she does not ask for cereal now does not mean she won't later. Also, what does she watch? Seasme Street? Does she like any characters from that show or any shows she is watching? A point I continue to make--advertisements are not just in the commercials, folks.

What about the brain activity info? Your research supersedes that? Just curious as no one responded to that.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Sometimes I just know better than any of the research out there and I don't have to say how or why I know. After all, this is only for my own child. If I were making decisions about your child, then you would have a right to know how and why I come up with my decisions, but not when it's just my child. There is research that says daycare is not harmful. I know that for my children it would be harmful. Other research says formula feeding, spanking, and CIO are not harmful. For my children, they are.

My dd watches Sesame Street and Dragon Tales. Sometimes she watches Teletubbies and Barney. Occasionally, Mr. Rogers and Between the Lions. She sometims watches episodes of the Simpsons that we tape; we pause for the ads. She recognizes characters. She sees characters in stores (and on cereal boxes!) and points them out. For some reason, I'm not concerned that I have ruined my child. Maybe someday I'll see that everyone else was right, but then it will be too late because she'll have ADHD and weigh 200 lbs!









If she asks for the cereal, she can have it. Hey, I buy whatever I want at the grocery store...I buy whatever dh wants...why not buy dd whatever she wants too?


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

My 4yo has free accesss to tv. He pretty much is only interested in the songs at the beginning of the show.

His super super most favorite of all time is Winx Club. He can sing the entire song. After the song is over he goes off to do as he pleases, mostly play toys and run around. (we do spend a lot of time out of the house too, we are members of every pay park in our neighborhood)

Did I mention that my son is pretty fluent in the foreign language of our new country just from watching the local cartoons? The neighbor said his grammar was perfect. Pretty good for less than 1 year being here.

Yeah, he sings the Winx Club song in the foreign language.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Just popping in to make a quick suggestion-

Perhaps the op's kids choose to watch 28 hours one week, and 4 the next, and none at all one week.

Perhaps some who TCS feel that TV might be a negative influence in some ways, but they feel that the trade off isn't worth it. It seems to me that if you have choosen a parenting strategy that allows your kids to make their own choices then yeah, you might think that a choice isn't the greatest, but you go with it, because the alternative is to be a bit half-arsed in your beliefs. And half-arsedness is pretty bad when it comes to family dynamics, imho.

I don't know, does anyone tcs without allowing tv watching?

Also, some of us might feel that tv is a pretty crappy influence, but that in the grand scheme of things it really isn't going to be the undoing of our kids.

Kaly


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Perhaps the op's kids choose to watch 28 hours one week, and 4 the next, and none at all one week.
That's true - I think when you average out a kid's TV time over a week or a month, it turns out to be not much. 4 hours a day is the absolute most for my dd, and most days aren't that much.

As far as TCS and unschooling...I suppose there is such thing as TCS/unschooling lite?







I read a lot of posts that say things like "We are unschoolers but we don't allow our kids to do this or this or this and they must do a certain amount of x activity before proceeding to y activity..." or "We are TCSers but still the kids have to go to bed when we say so and brush their teeth when we say so and we pick out what's for dinner..." Uh, OK, I guess there are different degrees of everything. Or, most likely, people like the way a philosophy sounds but don't actually like the idea of applying it to their daily lives because after all, what if the kid wants to run out into the street and drink bleach and eat lint?







:

There are all kinds of things I worry about when it comes to parenting decisions and my kids...TV is the least of those worries in my family. I would consider it a luxury if all I had to worry about was TV! :LOL


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

My kids saw very little TV as tots. They are now school aged and self-regulate. Their viewing habits vary widely -- from an hour or two a week when the weather is nice to nearly daily viewing during nasty weather, or when one of us is sick. I've also noticed that their viewing goes up when our family is under stress. So far today they've watched a 30 min. video from the library about subs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Ok the question is why does it have to be either TV or busywork from school?

Why not real life, real world, first hand experience with the mom, dad or caretaker?

I wonder this too. Perhaps back of the reason my kids are moderate TV watchers without my DH or I controlling it is because they are doing so many other things. We always have a read aloud book going as a family, they each of a book of their own going, there are always craft projects at various stages of completion, the dog need attention and training every day, the garden projects, etc. We nuture their interests and do fun things as a family.

I think there is a HUGE difference between kids like mine, who are self-regulating, are kids who can watch all the TV they want but no one is making sure they have much else going on.

I don't think the answer is for the parents just to turn off the TV. There needs to be something more -- like loading everyone in the car and heading to a park for a cook out.

Quote:

A point I continue to make--advertisements are not just in the commercials, folks.
My kids mostly watch Animal Planet, and my DH's favorite is the History Channel, so the ads they see are not usually aimed at kids (though they have come up with an extensive list of things we "need" to buy the dogs!) We talk about ads, hidden ads, marketing aimed at kids, etc. I did not allow them to watch shows with ads aimed at kids when they were too young to discuss this, and even now limit their exposure to that sort of thing. It is one thing to understand that they are trying to get you to buy things, it is another to be able to fight off the constant brain washing.

Quote:

What about the brain activity info? Your research supersedes that? Just curious as no one responded to that.
It just doesn't jive with what I see with my own kids. They don't turn into zombis. They ask questions, discuss, and want to research things further at the library.

Not all the TV watching is educational -- some is just for fun. We have family movie nights complete with popcorn. My kids have seen all the major kids films and every movie we can find with horses







They love Faulty Towers.

One of the things that bothers me on this thread is the notion that some kids are more prone to sitting around watching TV and the answer is for the parents just to control it. To me, that is a short term plan. It doesn't answer the bigger question of how to raise a child so that when they are grown and have total control, they sometimes turn off the TV and do something else. I think the time to work on this is BEFORE the teen years. We've got a lot of tricky parenting stuff coming up and TV will be the least of our problems in a few years.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If she asks for the cereal, she can have it. Hey, I buy whatever I want at the grocery store...I buy whatever dh wants...why not buy dd whatever she wants too?

I'm not trying to pick on your specific statement, GB, but the sentiment behind it is one I see here so often. It's one I don't agree with and one that, frankly, leaves me









I do many, many things that I don't allow my kids to do. My kids don't have the size, the physical agility, the understanding of cause and effect, the ability to anticipate several possible outcomes, the understanding of the way the world works, etc., to do many of the things that I do. Is it unfair that I do things I won't allow my kids to do? Maybe if my kids were somehow never going to grow up and yet I continued to taunt them by doing things that they would never, ever have the chance to do, then it would maybe be unfair. But my kids will grow up, their understanding of the world, their size and physical agility and understanding of cause and effect, and _their ability to make informed choices_ will increase. Then they can make their own choices about whether to do the things that I do now, as an adult. I feel no compulsion to try to level the playing field between me and my kids, because it's not a level playing field, and pretending it is is just that, pretending. To me, it comes down to the fact that kids are very different than adults, and it's perfectly fair to acknowledge that. In my mind, acknowledging that means not expecting them to make informed choices about things they can't truly understand.

Like with the South Park thing (I don't remember who posted about their small child watching South Park): someone had to introduce that show meant for adults to a small child in order for a small child to "choose" to watch that show. Is it necessary or beneficial to a small child to be allowed to choose to do something that's so clearly meant for an adult? In my mind, no, and to me the fact that the parents in question had to curtail their child's watching of the show because it was negatively influencing the child seems kinda like a no-brainer. If you put a kid in a situation that they aren't ready to handle, usually the outcome will be a poor one. In this case it sounds like the child was using unacceptable language, and the punishment, whether or not it's intended as one (it's very possoble the child will perceive it as one), is that the child can no longer watch this show. Would it perhaps have been better for the child, kinder to the child, not to put them in that situation in the first place?

Anyway, all this to say that the "it's not fair to treat kids differently that adults" argument just strikes me as bizarre.

Namaste!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

You are right that my kids are older now (sorry meant to do the quote thing, but it got all dorked up lol) but we've always been this way. When they were young we followed thier lead even then in what they wanted to watch. If Dd hid behind a chair, covered her eyes, or cried because she was frightened about something on TV I'd talk to her about it, and then if I saw she was needing my help probably not turn that show on when she was around.

It's not all that different from now really. I don't like horror movies, so Ds and Dh don't watch them when I am around. They watch them in Ds's room on his TV, or when I am working outside or in the garage etc. We've never said that the kids could only have a half hour, or an hour or whatever per day or week. There's not been a time limit for them at all that I recall. There's not one for me either







I wouldn't appreciate it if they said "OK, Mom you've had 2 hours of TV today. That's enough for you. Maybe you should go outside for awhile or read a book?" I don't think I need to be making that decision for them either. It's about respect for us, bottom line.

We don't have a problem with commercials or things like that. We discuss them alot. We roll our eyes at the silly ones, we laugh at the funny ones, we point out the obvious attempts by advertisers to make people think they need something. Occasionally we see something neat or interesting on a commercial too.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Like with the South Park thing (I don't remember who posted about their small child watching South Park): someone had to introduce that show meant for adults to a small child in order for a small child to "choose" to watch that show. Is it necessary or beneficial to a small child to be allowed to choose to do something that's so clearly meant for an adult?
That was me...unless there is another one! I used to watch SP during the day when dd was taking her nap, and after her nap she would wander into the room and catch the tail end of it. She liked the cartoon characters, the way most kids probably would, and then when we saw her picking up the language we decided to take it away. She's never asked for it since...

And about kids being allowed to do everything the adults in the family do, that is just what works for us. Like I said, she's no longer allowed to watch SP, but she never asks for it anyway. I suppose if she did, we'd have to cross that bridge when we came to it and decide if we were going to stop watching it ourselves or if we were going to say "Do as I say, not as I do."

Maybe someone can think of something else, but right now, the only things I can think of that dd is not allowed to do are things that are illegal for her to do, things that she doesn't want to do in the first place, or things that dh and I don't do. She is not allowed to drive the car (illegal), to drink coffee (she doesn't want to), or drink alcohol (dh and I don't drink).

Maybe for families that drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, this would not work, but for now it works for us.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If she asks for the cereal, she can have it. Hey, I buy whatever I want at the grocery store...I buy whatever dh wants...why not buy dd whatever she wants too?

This is how it's for us too. The kids can ask for what they want at the store and get it without issue. I get to buy bread that I like, cookies I like, and Boca burgers... so why shouldn't they? The harm in this has never, ever been clear to me. Yes they are children and they don't have all the same brain functions I do at 29, but they do have brains & they are capable of discussion generally.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

:LOL See mine watch SP, and mine are free to swear too.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
And when you're reading a book, you're also "sitting on your butt." I didn't have a TV in the house when I was growing up and my parents always complained about me reading too much. After school, instead of running around the neighborhood playing with friends, I'd be holed up in my room with a book. I'd get so absorbed in my books that I'd miss the school bus. My mom would set limits on how many books I could check out from the library - no more than 10 per week, and they would all be read before the week was up. Some parents will always find something wrong with what their kids are doing...



:LOL hee heee. I used to have to hide/bury my book in a fluffy throw pillow and pretend I was watching tv. My mother didn't like me reading too many books.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I don't know, does anyone tcs without allowing tv watching?
I TCS. My dd wasn't exposed to television until she was 2 1/2. If it were up to me there would be no television set in the house. As it is, dh is involved in television journalism and needs a set for work. As a TCS parent I don't feel comfortable, at all, with "not allowing" dd to watch. However, over the years we have discussed together the apparent benefits and dangers of television viewing. Some of the issues we have discussed are foreign language learning (as one poster mentioned) and exposure to "author cinema" (not sure how to phrase that in English -- good, quality films). Commercialism and whatnot has not been an issue, for us, because dd there are no commercials here and exposure to TV marketing is very, very limited.

I will concede that television, or rather DVDs of quality animation, was a good tool for exposing dd to Russian. It did not, however, make her anywhere near "fluent." That happened with exposure to real people. I will also concede that television helped her tremendously with her refusal of English. But when she learned phrases like "the coast is clear" she didn't have any understanding of them, though, of course, she pronounced them like any other native speaker. Fortunately, she was old enough to know that and come ask me!

In the end, though, the negative consequences of exposure to television were too great, in my child, to continue viewing it in a positive light. So we started the weaning process -- together. I never denied her when she asked. However, we talked and talked about the effects (red eyes, grumpiness, aggressiveness from pent-up energy, etc.). I also tried hard to keep her busy -- but not in a coercive way. If she asked to watch, she watched.

About a month ago she decided, with my input, to turn off the TV. It's been off since then.

I think this thread (especially Dar's posts) explains very well how TCS is not just about letting your kid make any choice he/she wants: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...&highlight=TCS

Of course, the really radical TCS'ers would tell me that I am coercing my child because my views of television are just that, mine. Meaning I am pushing my issues on her. But I believe that through some well-founded research and through experimentation and experience we came to this conclusion together -- a mutual preference as TCSers like to put it.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Thanks ParisMaman, I had wondered about the connection there. I do a bit of the same; we talk a lot about why tv might be bad, why particular shows might be worse than others, and about commercials.
Bernstain Bears (sp?) has led to some great discussions about sexism and stereotyping.
Jacques Cousteau, My First 85 Years has spurred my son to rabid environmentalism.
I don't really think our style is totally tcs, sort of do what feels instictually right, but we definitely lean that way.

Kaly


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

We don't have a TV, and my daughter never asks to watch at other people's houses (although, many people we know either don't have a TV or don't watch one when their children are awake).

My family didn't have a TV until I was 10, so I didn't watch much TV and now I don't watch any. Over the years, I've heard that the majority of children who grow up without TVs either don't watch much as an adult or don't own one at all. There is actually a high correlation between how much TV we watch as children to how much we watch as adults.

If my daughter experiments with TV later, that's up to her, but, for now, even a 1/2 would be too much in a day in our house.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Just my $0.02....

I watched a TON of tv as a kid. I also was a voracious reader and played outside a lot.

As an adult, I hardly ever watch. I used to watch maybe 3 hours a week; now I really don't watch it at all.

I think TV is an "evil" that's been overstated. It's evil if you want it to be. What is so awful about watching Sesame Street and learning the characters' names? I did that as a kid and I'm pretty sure it didn't warp me. Sure, it might make your kid want the Sesame Street t-shirt or bedsheet set...but if that's not something you want them to have, it's up to you to explain why. Personally I don't have a problem w/DD sleeping on Finding Nemo sheets.

I agree it's an individual thing. On the junk food issue - there was a lot in our house and I had pretty much free access to it. I definitely have a junk-food problem as an adult! We also had the "clean plate or no dessert" rule though, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926*
I think TV is an "evil" that's been overstated. It's evil if you want it to be. What is so awful about watching Sesame Street and learning the characters' names?

The links that were provided earlier in this thread give data that would answer your question. In my personal opinion, it's just very dull and contrived. I think it's a great waste of time, when my kids watch it, so I try to keep to a minimum.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I think the major issue I have with TV (today, that is) is that some families feel that it is detrimental to their family or they have a niggling feeling that it is, but they don't do anything about it.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
That was me...unless there is another one! I used to watch SP during the day when dd was taking her nap, and after her nap she would wander into the room and catch the tail end of it. She liked the cartoon characters, the way most kids probably would, and then when we saw her picking up the language we decided to take it away. She's never asked for it since...

And about kids being allowed to do everything the adults in the family do, that is just what works for us. Like I said, she's no longer allowed to watch SP, but she never asks for it anyway. I suppose if she did, we'd have to cross that bridge when we came to it and decide if we were going to stop watching it ourselves or if we were going to say "Do as I say, not as I do."


Do you ever swear? Because there you are making a choice for your dd. Perhaps you don't swear in front of her, but at other times. I don't know, I'm asking. From this I gather that TV viewing is ok, unless you start to see negative effects- which so far you aren't, save for this example.

You mentioned formula and lots of other things (CIO, spanking, etc...) that *are* bad for your kids, basing this on simply your own knowing. I think it is easier to "know" things that are in line with our value systems. You value breastfeeding, GD, and allowing your children to have choice, and therefore they are working for you- despite contradictory research. If you did not value TV yourself, would argue that no tv is what is right for your children as well, or allow them to make the choice? Are there things that you do not choose for yourself that they are allowed to choose?

It is easy to disregard studies and whatnot if they do not jive with our personal value systems, and whatever, we are free to do that. I do that all the time. There are studies that probably say that there is no difference between conventional and organic produce. But I value organic goods and sustainable earth friendly practices, so I make that a priority and believe that it is best for us. It seems like that is the case with several posters here who are aware of the studies, but for whatever reason, choose not to allow that information to have weight on their decisions.

Regarding tv, I watched a ton as a kid and while once I was on my own i developed a distainful attitude for it and have more or less kept it out of my life since then, I *do* believe that i missed out on some richness as a child. and yes, i was still a bookworm who read in the dark, played outside, went to camp, played instruments, etc...etc... But i have memories of being alone and watching stupid tv and- i think it's kind of lame. I don't blame my parents at all, but i know that that is not how i want dd spending her time and i feel fine about not having tv in our house as an option right now. Dh and i watch movies on the laptop maybe once every 2 weeks after she's gone to bed. When we are at other people's houses and the tv is on, she glances for a minute or 2, then moves on. As I stated in a previous thread, she has her whole life to decide if tv is for her and watch it. I don't think she's missing out on anything by having no tv as a child. She does not have her whole life to spend in the magic of childhood, with her imagination, learning how to entertain herself if she's bored, etc... this is a unique and special time, and i feel obligated to protect it. For us, that means no tv right now.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer*

It is easy to disregard studies and whatnot if they do not jive with our personal value systems, and whatever, we are free to do that. I do that all the time. There are studies that probably say that there is no difference between conventional and organic produce. But I value organic goods and sustainable earth friendly practices, so I make that a priority and believe that it is best for us. It seems like that is the case with several posters here who are aware of the studies, but for whatever reason, choose not to allow that information to have weight on their decisions.


Yea, I pick apart pro-vaccine studies, noting all the limitations of "studies" while citing every stat from pro-breastfeeding studies.

Aren't there studies :LOL showing this, that when people learn new info they discard what doesn't mesh with their value system/perspective and keep what does.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

we keep our tv in the closet and it came out onve in like 4 years for the pres race this year....

my dd can watch it other people's houses, but most o fht epeople we visit dont' watch tv while we are visitng...and she is not that into it ever anyway
she is almost 2
when she gets older and can argue a point (like all my friends watch tv and i want one too)
we will go from there
i am into respecting her wishes AND guiding her away from things that i feel are harmful or less than helpful

and she is a huge reader and very personable and fun

she is so not a tv kid and it shows
i am real pleases with that

i like what a pp said about why not do real life instead of tv....there is a funny song about "you watch Friends while i have friends..."

i think that sums it up.

now if i had some life where i could not get a moments rest with out putting my kids infront of pbs for an hour a day
and that hour was needed for my sanity

then i guess that is not the worst thing a kid could do.

i just enjoy teaching my dd and doing things together
and our down time is often just sitting in a comfy chair and snuggling....sometimes with books and sometimes just quiet time

it is unplanned and we have access to this quiet veg space anytime we want it and we can walk away with a nice sense of peace...something tv veg does not do.

we do have a dvd player on our computer and we have down loaded a bunch of tv shows (like south park) and keep them saved in our media files

we (dh adn i) watch something about one time a month

we would rather read, talk, or listen to npr!

that is just us
but i feel like it is the right way, just mho


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

niggling feeling that it is, but they don't do anything about it.
I wanted to quote Sohj too. Did I dream that participated in this thread? Something about not having to wean her child because she never got started.

It's just not very simple. In my case, for example, there was the dh whose profession revolves around television (and he needs to work at home sometimes), the fact that both of us are film buffs and there is no cinema in this country, the concept of exposing dc to the language of our host country and to the good, artistic films our family appreciates, the parenting philosophy we follow...so many things to think about and consider.

Over the past 2 1/2 years, we've been through several long-term (months) turn-offs. I have repeatedly asked dh if we could get rid of the TV -- just to make it that much easier on me. I mean neither of us watches pure television, and the TV has never been on in the evenings (until movie time after dd's bedtime) or on weekends. Dd has never complained about extended TV-free holidays and has never asked to watch when outside the home.

Just want to clarify that, yah, sometimes we know all about the effects but turning off can truly be a complicated affair. I'm just glad it's off now. I'll take that.

I keep going really off OT. Sorry OP.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I don't know, does anyone tcs without allowing tv watching?
Not to get off topic, but I resent that comment and the comments like it. I resent the judgement of people's parenting philosophies because they don't fit into a neat little box that is being placed on them...

Yes, you can do TCS without your children watching TV...the same way you can be a completely attached parent without your child ever being in a sling. Yes, one would assume if you claim to be AP or practice TCS, that your actions and philospophies jive with them for the *most* part, or most closely match those philosohies over other philosophies...but to imply that the whole system goes out the window because someone does (or doesn't do) ONE thing that you don't agree they should...seems extreme to me.

Okay, here come the arguements "how can you be AP if you use the ROD!!!" (or similar)...again, with the extremes. Of course one can safely assume that if someone is going that far, they probably aren't AP at all, but I digress.

We plan on practicing TCS..and I take my child seriously enough to not plop them in front of a glaring box for as many hours a week as someone works a full time job.

I have a problem with "my child CHOOSES" this....

Yes, I am ALL for choices and plan on respecting my child's (but I get veto power on things like safety etc)...however, I see it the same as when people say:

My child REFUSES to eat vegetables! (says the parent who only offers junk and rarely vegetables)

My child CHOOSES to watch 30 hours of TV a week!!! (says the parent who plops thier child in front of the TV at 1 years old to take care of household stuff, or whatever)

..and so on...

TCS is about just that, taking your child seriously, not just letting them decide everything and anything on their impulses and whims at any given time.

Please, let's not get into a pissing contest about who does TCS (or whatever it may be) "better".

The people who claim they let their kids choose WHATEVER they want...okay, has your 4 year old ever seen children going off to school? Are you going to instantly sign them up because they get it in their head that riding the bus might be cool, or they want a cool backpack or something like the other kids...etc (just an arbitrary example)

Probably not, because homeschooling (or unschooling) is important to you ...you CHOSE it for your child because of whatever reason (we are planning on that too)...

Anyway, back to TV...I just personally feel it is very, very, passive entertainment and not right for our family and our child...that's cool, some of you think it is the most wonderful thing since man landed on the moon...super....
I will not come into your house and turn off your precious TV, as long as you don't come into mine and act as though I am denying my child a fundamental human right because we DON'T watch it, and that I am a complete fraud in my child-rearing philosophies because of it.

Can we all agree on that eh?


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Hmmm, Captain Crunchy. I got that she was honestly curious about that. I have been offended several times here on MDC over TCS comments, but that one seemed like a genuine question to me.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

OT to PM. I am adoring your family pics! I try to click on only one place each time so I can prolong the pleasure. You are a wonderful photographer!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

OT

Thanks UUMom. The really good ones are scanned photos by my dh who is semi-pro. But...some of the good ones are mine. I need to add some recent stuff. Thanks for the reminder.

Back to making dinner. I love it how I come here in between Moulinexing the tomato sauce and waiting for the pasta to be al dente! Well, when dd is busy like she is today, anyway.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I love that as well. It's morning here, so I am sipping my coffee and my girls have gone outside, with a picnic basket of snacks, their sketchpads, pastels & colored pencils and bug box for 'specimans'. My 6 yr old is wearing a wonderful oversized straw gardening hat. I can see them in the garden through the kitchen window and it's too sweet, nearly painful. Sun today, after many days of rain and cold. A gift.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Hmmm, Captain Crunchy. I got that she was honestly curious about that. I have been offended several times here on MDC over TCS comments, but that one seemed like a genuine question to me.
I wasn't *attacking* that particuular poster directly...or anyone in particular...I just (lazily) pulled that quote out because from that quote, there ensued a debate over who was doing TCS and who wasn't and who was doing it better etc and so on...


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What if a child, when presented with TV among several other options, sometimes chooses the TV?

Maybe I take "TCS" too literally, but to me it means taking them seriously when they say they would rather watch TV than do the interesting art activity I put together for them. I just figure they have a good reason for wanting to watch TV and that maybe they will want to do the other stuff later and maybe not - whatever they choose, they had a good reason for it and I need to trust them.

And hey, sometimes my dd asks to do an art activity that she saw on TV...I guess some would say I should deny her that activity because it was "advertised" to her!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Wow, captain crunchy, I haven't heard much from TCSers about being TV-free. I always liked the sentiment behind TCS but so much of the writing about it seems so pro-TV, and pro-junkfood. We don't have TV in our home, and we only have healthy foods and shop in a store where only healthy foods are sold. My impression was that by TCS standards I was limiting my kid's choices, therefore coercing them. However, I view TV (especially the commerialzation aspect) and the addictive nature of junk foods (especially sugar) to be incredibly manipulative and coercive, although it isn't the parent doing the coercing. Anyhow, your perspective is interesting.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Saudades*
Over the years, I've heard that the majority of children who grow up without TVs either don't watch much as an adult or don't own one at all. There is actually a high correlation between how much TV we watch as children to how much we watch as adults.

Says who? This doesn't jive with people I know at all. One of my friends grew up with 1/2 hour of PBS per day. Once she was out of college and had a job, all she did was watch TV every night. She was a total junkie. She was pretty much a walking add for not being overly-control with a kids' TV viewing.

I, on the other hand, watched TV almost non-stop as a child and I cannot stand the thought of wasting my life sitting in front of the TV. For years I didn't own a TV and now that I do have one, it spends a lot of time OFF. What we do watch is carefully choosen.

I've never seen a study on this, but the people I know in real life convince me that I need to teach my kids to control their own TV viewing because it is an important life skill. Just forcing them to not watch isn't the answer. If your kid goes through childhood with little or no TV but then becomes an adult who does nothing with their free time but watch TV, would you feel like your plan had worked?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I have such a problem with people presenting TV like it is a birthright!!!

I mean, seriously people, wording it like *denying* them TV...*forcing* them *not* to watch it...you would think that it was a fundamental human right!

My goodness, I plan on *denying* my child the *right* to run freely in the street....am I denying her the choice she might want to see what it feels like to be run down by a car?

I know you may think that is a silly example, but it is just as arbitrary as presenting TV as if it is a God given right written in the constitution next to life, and liberty...

If you want to let your kids watch TV that is COOLLLLLL...GO FOR IT.....WONDERFUL.....

How are you denying a child something when the choice isn't even presented? It is like saying you deny your child a bunch of junkfood because you don't stock your cabinets with it... I mean, just because there are a world of choices, both good and bad...doesn't mean that your child is entitled to EVERY one of them. It is the same arguement everyone else has. "if you can do what you want, why can't your child?"

Let's flip that. I CAN'T do everything I want, so why should my child? I don't want to create a false reality EITHER way...

and speaking of false realities...isn't that what TV is for the most part? At least with imagination play, it is THEIR imagination they are using, not some marketer trying to sell a product through a thinly veiled TV show...

I digress...


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Why should adults have the right to watch TV? Oh, I get it - because they are ADULTS! Apparently because I'm an adult I have the right to flaunt my TV-watching in front of my children and then say "But YOU don't get any!"

What I'm tired of is hearing TV compared to running in the street; drinking bleach; eating nothing but candy all day; and getting drunk. Those are the kinds of arguments I would expect to hear on a TV show and not in a community of educated people.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
eating nothing but candy all day

Well I, for one, think that letting kids watch as much TV as they like is as bad as letting kids eat candy all day long. It's not healthy.

And I completely agree with captain crunchy. Just because there are a zillion and one choices in life doesn't mean that my kids have to have access to all those choices, and I am not a bad parent for limiting the parameters of their choices.

Namaste!


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
How are you denying a child something when the choice isn't even presented? It is like saying you deny your child a bunch of junkfood because you don't stock your cabinets with it... I mean, just because there are a world of choices, both good and bad...doesn't mean that your child is entitled to EVERY one of them.

Actually, my father says that, that because we didn't present candy to ds1 as a choice, that we were "denying" him. I mean, he didn't even know what it was and he has never asked for candy or shown any interest in candy. But from my Dad's viewpoint and also as a candy-lover, he sees that as denial. How can you deny something that no one ever asks for or is even aware of? Again, it's entitlement, like you say. My father believes that my children are entitled to candy. They are also apparently being denied the McDonald's experience, even though they have no idea of what it is. We're vegetarians and we don't eat fast food, so the fact that those options aren't even presented in our family means "denial" in his eyes.

I REALLY have enjoyed your comments on this thread. And it's been interesting to see a different POV wrt TCS. We don't practice TCS, but I've been nodding my head to your posts.

Also, I don't flaunt my TV watching in front of my kids. When ds1 was a year old, we were watching a documentary on humans and evolution. In the process of competing for a female to mate with, one male attacked another. My little one-yo was apparently watching and he started saying, "uh oh! uh oh! uh oh!". After that, we stopped watching TV in front of him. We tape our shows and watch after they're asleep. Dh watches sports while they're awake. That's pretty much it. In our house, I started the kids' programming and it became a habit. *kicks self* How would they even know that there are kids' programs if they didn't have an adult to show it to them? I showed them. That's why they "choose" TV, because it was basically given to them. Again, I don't practice TCS and am not totally aware of all the ins and outs, but my children are not experts in what is good for their bodies in every area. As a literate 30something year old, I am like their tour-guide in life; that's how I see it.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts. I've really enjoyed this thread, both the POVs I agree with and those that I do not agree with. It's been very thought-provoking.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

To me, what underlies this argument is how we view our roles as parents. To me, my role is not to provide my children with the widest menu of choices available. It's to model what I consider to be healthy behavior and guide my children to make what I consider to be healthy choices so that they have the best possible chance of becoming what I consider to be healthy adults.

Within that idea of "healthy" live many, many different choices. My kids don't have to be exactly like to me to be healthy. But I don't feel the least bit bad about denying my kids, especially as toddlers and preschoolers, access to unhealthy behaviors and things that I think are unhealthy and that can be addictive and habit-forming.

Namaste!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Why should adults have the right to watch TV? Oh, I get it - because they are ADULTS! Apparently because I'm an adult I have the right to flaunt my TV-watching in front of my children and then say "But YOU don't get any!"

But this is one of the many reasons we don't have a TV in our home, and why I don't watch it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeftField*
They are also apparently being denied the McDonald's experience, even though they have no idea of what it is. We're vegetarians and we don't eat fast food, so the fact that those options aren't even presented in our family means "denial" in his eyes.

McDonald's has to be the most insidious marketers on earth, because this is the EXACT SAME THING my FIL thinks. His biggest concern about us being vegetarian is not that my kids won't get enough protein or enough calories or anything like that. It has nothing to do with their health. It's that *they won't ever get the joy of a Happy Meal!*

This from a man who weighs close to 400 pounds.









Namaste!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
We plan on practicing TCS..and I take my child seriously enough to not plop them in front of a glaring box for as many hours a week as someone works a full time job.

Which is totally cool if that is what works for your family







It's also cool if other peoples' children do watch TV that much.

Quote:

TCS is about just that, taking your child seriously, not just letting them decide everything and anything on their impulses and whims at any given time.
Well yea it's about discussing and giving opinions, guidance, and info. But all that said it means (for me) that the child's voice is as important as the adult's. The child's desire to watch TV would be honored.

Quote:

The people who claim they let their kids choose WHATEVER they want...okay, has your 4 year old ever seen children going off to school? Are you going to instantly sign them up because they get it in their head that riding the bus might be cool, or they want a cool backpack or something like the other kids...etc (just an arbitrary example)
The decision to not attend school has always been my kids' to make. They can go or not go. My son did in fact want to go to school at 4. So there was much discussion, and visiting programs to show him what it was like. He ended up going to a pre-K program 4 days a week for 3 hrs a day. All his choice, and it was heard and honored.

Quote:

Probably not, because homeschooling (or unschooling) is important to you ...you CHOSE it for your child because of whatever reason (we are planning on that too)...
Well, we didn't start out unschooling. We started out with the kids attending school and then came into it later. It was not a choice I made for the kids. They made it







Now I can see how your example means a family who has started home/unschooling from the start, and even if I had started that way with the kids & they'd wanted to try school they could.

Quote:

I will not come into your house and turn off your precious TV, as long as you don't come into mine and act as though I am denying my child a fundamental human right because we DON'T watch it, and that I am a complete fraud in my child-rearing philosophies because of it.
I'm sorry you were getting that from the thread. I don't think you are a fraud though, FWIW







The way I see it, your house your TV (or lack thereof) ya know?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

We don't buy hot dogs or McDonald's food, so I suppose someone could make the argument that we "deny" our children these things, but to me there is a difference. We never have hot dogs in the house, but we do have TV and ice cream in the house. If I didn't want my dd to have them, I wouldn't have them in the house. I resist this idea that adults are allowed to do whatever they want and children just have to sit by and watch.

If people see TV on the same level as running in the street, I wonder what they are doing with a TV in the house. Using it only when the kids are sleeping isn't exactly a great way of hiding it. Kids know.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

BTW - I have great respect for families who made the decision together to be TV-free, as opposed to "adults get TV and kids don't."


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
It is the same arguement everyone else has. "if you can do what you want, why can't your child?"

Let's flip that. I CAN'T do everything I want, so why should my child? I don't want to create a false reality EITHER way...

and speaking of false realities...isn't that what TV is for the most part? At least with imagination play, it is THEIR imagination they are using, not some marketer trying to sell a product through a thinly veiled TV show...

I digress...

I don't think that TCS teaches a child that they can do everything they want. I think life's limitations show themselves to everyone, child and adult. My Ds thought he was a superhero at 5 for awhile. He wore a "cape" and "flew" around the house. He said he'd like to be able to climb up the walls & on the ceiling. Obviously he could not.

One morning Dd wants strawberries, but we are out. She is upset because she wants them, and yet she can't have any right now. So we brainstorm together. We make a list of things to get at the store later and the first item is strawberries. (She drew a picture of one just to make sure we knew what we needed :LOL) We talk about calling grandma and asking if she has strawberries. We have applesauce instead. We make cookies. These were all on our list. She wanted strawberries. She couldn't have them.

Regarding TV being a false reality: Probably. But my answer to that (no sarcasm or snarking here at all) is "so"? I don't think it has to ruin a sense of what is real and what isn't in kids anymore than it would in an adult. As someone once wrote (sorry can't recall name): I've seen Paris on TV, and I've vactioned there. I can tell the difference.
Books are someone elses reality. Stories that came from someone else's mind, world, and time. Imagination is a wonderful thing, and some people just see TV as adding to it the same way a great story can. Is the super hero my son pretended to be from some kids show any less a good use of his imagination than if he were pretending to be something from a book?

I think kids can see through advertising if they are given the info that we adults have about it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

In our house, it's not "adults get tv and kids don't." It's more like, we can all have a very limited amount of tv, and adults CAN have some tv shows that kids can't. I like Law and Order. I watch it once every few weeks. It's not appropriate for kids, and it's on after they go to bed anyway. There are a plethora of other shows that I don't think are appropriate for anyone, child or adult. None of us watch those shows. There are a very few shows that I consider appropriate for kids. My kids can watch those if I am able to watch with them. If I can't actually sit down and watch with them, none of us watch. I guess that's "adultist" of me to say "I can watch alone but you can't," but I think that my kids are much more edified by my being there to help them interpret what they are seeing than I would be by having them there to do the same for me.









I'm sure that as they get older, I will allow them to watch certain shows alone. But not yet.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually, I do let the kids watch videos form my son's orphanage in Ethiopia alone.

Namaste!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I must be very fortunate, because I do get to do pretty much whatever I want. I eat what I want, when I want. I watch what I want on TV. I can even sleep in as late as I want, if I bring the baby to bed with me. I do housework when I want to do it and stop when I want to stop.

There are a few things I can't do exactly when I want. These are - take a break from the kids during the day (have to wait for them to nap); go skiing (too expensive); go to nice restaurants with dh (no childcare).

So contrary to what everyone else thinks, I don't have to conform to the schedules and expectations set by the rest of the world. My day runs on my family's time and not anyone else's.

So since I am largely free to do whatever I want, I would also like my children to have that freedom. Right now my youngest is asleep and my oldest is splashing water all over the bathroom.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

edited


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The way I see it is, why should a kid ever have to be bored in a car? Especially when it's usually the adult who decided everyone should take a trip anyway?

And I hate road trip games...when I was a kid I spent long car trips listening to my walkman. If my kids want to listen to music on headphones they have my blessing if it will get me out of License Plate Game and I Spy.

I doubt we will be buying a new car anytime soon but I think the DVD player would be an added bonus if I didn't have to hear it when I drove.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

"Now, I know parents who use the TV as the deadbeat dad their children never had, and I know other families who have the TV on literally all the time. I think I can trust myself here. I do have some rules - the TV is only on when there is a specific show on that we want to watch. We don't just turn it on to see what is there. And we don't watch cartoons on other networks, because of the toy advertising. I don't buy Linda stuff with TV characters on them, or toys of characters. No "princesses" in our house! And we do plenty of other things throughout the day - crafts, outdoor play, cooking, chores, and reading"

Greaseball, the above is from your blog. This is entirely different than what you have been saying here. Above you explain that you have *limits* in the choice of tv you present to your kids. In a previoius post, you said that if your daughter wanted cereal she saw on tv, she could have it- that is not what you wrote above. Why are you explaining your self differently? on this thread, you make it out to be that- except for the SP incident- your kids have free reign about TV, which obvioulsly, they don't. You are creating limits, you're the mom (and your dh does as well, i assume). To me, your TV policy seems pretty reasonable for a family that allows tv, not some anything-goes policy. Why are you trying to paint it that way?


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I'm really not concerned that my child sees a bunch of cereal commercials on PBS. (She doesn't watch other networks.) She never asks for the cereals she sees...


PBS is mostly one giant commercial for kids.

I am confused. You had previously written that commercials somehow did not influence your child, and now you say they cannot watch TV shows with commercials. Sesame Street is a commercial, is it not?

The point of this is character recognition. To connect the character to you.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
There are studies too much TV can be harmful, but *I have yet to see one that shows lack of TV is harmful or that TV is beneficial to one.* I keep asking, but no one delivers.







Still not sure why.


anyone?

(all my good posts are being ignored)


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

In a previoius post, you said that if your daughter wanted cereal she saw on tv, she could have it- that is not what you wrote above.
What I wrote above concerned toys, not food. I stand by allowing her to have the cereal - if she asked for it. I would treat that the way I treat any request for a specific food.

I really really hope she doesn't ask for the TV toys because I don't want to buy them! I stick to buying the more "natural" toys, though some of them are plastic. I like to shop from catalogs like Hearthsong and not places like Toys R Us.

Quote:

You had previously written that commercials somehow did not influence your child, and now you say they cannot watch TV shows with commercials. Sesame Street is a commercial, is it not?
I don't think I said that commericals didn't influence here - I said only that she had never requested the products she saw in commercials on PBS. I also never said I allowed completely unlimited access to TV, since I discontinued South Park. There are certain shows that I think are plain trash, and they advertise for trash products, and we just don't watch that stuff. No one in the family does. Fortunately my dd never asks to watch it, even though she knows there is other TV beyond PBS, and if she does then it will be a real dilemma.

My reason for not wanting her to play with certain toys or watch certain shows is mostly about image and how other people might look at us. Shameful but true.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

One last thing.

Here is where I am confused. UnSchooln might help me see the light here







I let me son make most of his decisions--what to wear, what route to take to the store, where to sit on the bus, what to eat, what to play. If he wants to stay up to 3 AM, I let him. I am very child led in everything I do.

But I think he (and other young children) has less developed cognitive and decision making abilities than a preteen or teenager. He would readily jump out in front of oncoming traffic or walk out of the grocery store with some strawberries without paying. He has not learned these things yet. He clearly does not have the ability, as a young child, to make all decisions to meet societal norm (paying for something, following pedestrain traffic signals, not stealing, etc.) at all times. Sometimes is does not matter or affect others--he wants to wear a skirt and no shirt in December, I am all for it (while carrying a coat if he gets cold). But is he wants to play in the middle of the day on Broadway (the very busy street), you better believe I am going to veto that. If my son decides he wants to steal, should I sit back and watch him and if he gets caught, he gets caught? Should I encourage it? Or should I instill in him the principles of karma, the consequences of theft, talk to him about it, offer alternatives to get what he wants, find ways to meet the needs he is exhibiting?

This is how I feel about TV. I exists, and it will for a long time. I can tell my son TV does this to your brain, give him the facts (the proven ones, not my conclusions based on little evidence), show him alternatives (if he wants to learn about trains, lets go to a train. Into animals, hit the zoo) and let him decide if TV is healthy for him. But I feel at his toddler age he might not be able to consider all the information and weigh the sides. Do you all think they can make sound judgements across the board? I feel perhaps at 6 or 7. Most likely by 10 or 11. But if you think a toddler can make sound judgements, but not across the board, how did you conclude TV was one of those things? And other things were not?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Meco, the reason no one has gone off to look for a study you requested is probably because most of us don't feel the need to justify our choices with the latest scientific research. I had a bagel and cream cheese, two oreos and milk for breakfast. I don't need to find some study to justify this; the fact that I wanted it was good enough for me. The fact that all my dd wanted for breakfast was an apple is good enough for me too. Nearly every choice I make throughout the day is because it was what I wanted or it was what I found to be effective, not because some doctor endorsed it.

I doubt every choice you make is backed by research.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I did miss some interesting posts. I must have missed some notifications.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
To me, what underlies this argument is how we view our roles as parents. To me, my role is not to provide my children with the widest menu of choices available. It's to model what I consider to be healthy behavior and guide my children to make what I consider to be healthy choices so that they have the best possible chance of becoming what I consider to be healthy adults.

Within that idea of "healthy" live many, many different choices. My kids don't have to be exactly like to me to be healthy. But I don't feel the least bit bad about denying my kids, especially as toddlers and preschoolers, access to unhealthy behaviors and things that I think are unhealthy and that can be addictive and habit-forming.









:

TV is addicting. Good point.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Greaseball, certainly not. I make a lot of choices because they are healthy and what is best for me and my son. But most tend to have research backing them up, but not all. If I did something and a strong, well supported belief counteracted that I might educate myself on the matter. If there were *nothing* to support my theories, I might readdress them and revisit my reasoning.

But this research does not exist? Why not? I am not asking you to explain your choices. They are yours. Not mine. Just to show me that TV is good for kids. To show me my son is better of learning from "meaningful" TV and a "boring" worksheet. (BTW, I prefer dittos and worksheets anyday. Call me a nerd, but I love them







) than he is from learning from me and real world experiences.

People here keep using "deny" and insinuating "withholding" TV is going to make my son a rabid TV watching adult. All the hours spent not watching TV are spent doing things that matter--exploring, experiencing, learning, bonding and growing.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

All the hours spent not watching TV are spent doing things that matter--exploring, experiencing, learning, bonding and growing.
That is true. And there is time to fit TV watching around all these things. Too many people see it as either/or. Either you watch TV or you do something more worthwhile. Either you eat healthy food or junk food. Why not do both? Why not eat a nice nutritious dinner and then have lots of ice cream? Why not spend your day outside counting beetles and then your evenings in front of the TV?

Sometimes you just know in your heart that something is or isn't OK. For example, I have decided to vaccinate my kids. I know there is research for and against it, and I haven't read any of it. I made the choice I know to be right without reading a thing. And my choice is not any less valid than the choice of someone who has read all the studies.

I have a friend who breastfed her children when they were 8 and 10 years old. I doubt there is research to support this, and there may be research that says it would be harmful. Even though I have never met her children, I know they were not harmed by being breastfed at those ages.

On some issues, I have found it useful to pull out the studies. My dh did a complete 180 on the circ issue after I showed him the Fleiss articles. I also like to quote statistics from pro-homebirth studies.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I resist this idea that adults are allowed to do whatever they want and children just have to sit by and watch.

If people see TV on the same level as running in the street, I wonder what they are doing with a TV in the house. Using it only when the kids are sleeping isn't exactly a great way of hiding it. Kids know.

I don't do whatever I want. I really want to eat chocolate for the rest of my life, but since I have the cognitive knowledge that this is not healthy and since I have impulse control mastered, I don't do it. My kids don't have that same inner voice that comes from life experience, so they aren't always going to stop themselves from instant gratification.

As far as the sleeping thing and hiding TV...

I don't know. I guess this comes down to just differences in parenting style. I don't strive to make my kids my equals because they are young and in need of guidance. We drink alcohol at home and they are not allowed to do that, although, AFAIK, it's not illegal (only illegal to buy). It doesn't bother me if we can't be equals in terms of having wants met; that is not my goal.

The way I look at it, wrt to this very specific issue, is this. My brain is not in the process of basic and rapid development anymore. I have a value system firmly in place across all areas and so I am not as vulnerable to media messages. I have the ability to filter things that I view. I understand the difference between fantasy and reality. I have impulse control established. I don't believe that Jack Bauer is a real person that I can visit and who perhaps might come to my birthday party. I don't seek to make my children my equals in TV viewing, because they are not developmentally equal. There is numerous data to support the risks of TV for kids, but since you've already stated that research doesn't apply to your family, then I can't really discuss or debate it well.

I'm not trying to be snarky, btw. I'm just debating.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I don't believe that Jack Bauer is a real person that I can visit and who perhaps might come to my birthday party.
I want him at MY party!







He is my personal hero.

Seriously though...I guess I just don't believe in delaying gratification. There is this assumption that the things we want are things that will harm ourselves or others, and I don't think that applies to me. I don't desire anything that would harm myself or others. Chocolate is not harmful to me, since I never have the desire to plow through a whole pound of it. When I want chocolate I eat as much of it as I want and then stop when I want to stop. My dd just asked for crackers and I don't see the point in saying "Why don't you wait half an hour?" Can't she just have them right now?

But about hiding things from the kids...a lot of parents try this with things like pornography and guns, and the kids always find them. If you think it's harmful for your child it probably should be out of the house. I think kids quickly figure out that different things happen when they are asleep. I used to pretend to be asleep so I could listen to adult conversation.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
But I think he (and other young children) has less developed cognitive and decision making abilities than a preteen or teenager. He would readily jump out in front of oncoming traffic or walk out of the grocery store with some strawberries without paying. He has not learned these things yet. He clearly does not have the ability, as a young child, to make all decisions to meet societal norm (paying for something, following pedestrain traffic signals, not stealing, etc.) at all times.

Right, he is young and has not had the experiences you've had (or a teen has had) because he hasn't been around as long. I can agree with that.

Quote:

Sometimes is does not matter or affect others--he wants to wear a skirt and no shirt in December, I am all for it (while carrying a coat if he gets cold). But is he wants to play in the middle of the day on Broadway (the very busy street), you better believe I am going to veto that.
Yes, I would surely not be all about my toddler playing in the street so I am right with ya there. The question, from a TCS standpoint I think is, how do we communicate danger and encourage safe decision making while respecting them. TCS, much like anything else, looks different as kids get older/more emtionally and mentally mature. This means that how we deal with the street issue changes from the time the child is age 2, 4 and 9 and so on.

Quote:

If my son decides he wants to steal, should I sit back and watch him and if he gets caught, he gets caught? Should I encourage it? Or should I instill in him the principles of karma, the consequences of theft, talk to him about it, offer alternatives to get what he wants, find ways to meet the needs he is exhibiting?
 I would do exactly what you said... discussing theft and what that means, why people don't like it, discuss alternatives, and work it out.

Quote:

Do you all think they can make sound judgements across the board? I feel perhaps at 6 or 7. Most likely by 10 or 11. But if you think a toddler can make sound judgements, but not across the board, how did you conclude TV was one of those things? And other things were not?
It's so individual with each kid in my experience as to what they understand and when. I'm an adult and sometimes my decisions turn out crappy too, KWIM? I think there are things a toddler doesn't understand of course.

When my kids were that young we followed their lead about TV. If they were frightened, upset, or angry about something on TV we tried to really examine that and act accordingly. If something on TV bothered them we tried to protect them from that until they were more ready for that & could understand it. Dd has long been afraid of vampires, and even cartoon vampires frightened here at age 3. She'd be scared of the "Count" on Sesame Street so we stopped watching it for a time after discussing it with her. Then a few months went by and she asks to watch it again. I remind her that there is a character she did not care for, and then tell her she can watch it whenever she'd like.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
And about kids being allowed to do everything the adults in the family do, that is just what works for us....

Maybe someone can think of something else, but right now, the only things I can think of that dd is not allowed to do are things that are illegal for her to do, things that she doesn't want to do in the first place, or things that dh and I don't do. She is not allowed to drive the car (illegal), to drink coffee (she doesn't want to), or drink alcohol (dh and I don't drink).

Do you plan on changing this policy when/if she does decide she wants to drink coffee? Or have sex at 12?


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Probably not, because homeschooling (or unschooling) is important to you ...you CHOSE it for your child because of whatever reason (we are planning on that too)...
I don't know about that. My dd wanted to do preschool. Twice. Both times were disasters and she wanted to stop (well, some days she wanted to stop, others she didn't). Both times, despite my having always wanted to unschool, the decision (mutual) to pull her out was complicated and long (too long, IMO). Now she has chosen to stay at home. She doesn't like to be instructed, so she has chosen the unschooling lifestyle. If she ever wants to go back to school (not likely after this last experience), she will be free to try again.

I have only two things left to say: 1) I am loving the TV-free life! BTW the adults are not watching either (anyway there are no DVDs in this town at the moment!) 2) I forgot #2







:


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I respect caring parents who have different parenting styles than I do, we do what we think is right for our families. It is interesting to me that many parents seem to think that because I let my dc make choices that they don't make available to their dc that I have not considered the consequences or thought deeply into my philosophy. I have done lots of research and spent ages agonizing over issues and have come to a parenting philosophy that works for me and for my dc. I observe them and if changes needed to be made I would make them. My dc are intelligent, well-spoken, creative, avid bookworms, funny, and totally full of life. While I respect that some people find the things that we enjoy harmful I do reject that my dc are somehow "unfortunate" due to my permissiveness. I care for my dc as much as eveyone else and I consider their happiness and well-being just as much as everyone else. There are many paths and they only have to be "best" for the people walking down them.

BTW- I was raised by parents who strictly rationed and censored t.v., diet, music, etc., they were loving parents who were trying to raise me the "best" way. They chose a path that they felt was the right one but were so sure of their "correctness" that they never observed or respected my personhood enough to realize that it was not working for me.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
TCS is about just that, taking your child seriously, not just letting them decide everything and anything on their impulses and whims at any given time.

I think that Taking Child Seriously is poorly named because many of us take our children very seriously but do not follow the tenets of the TCS movement. I limit my kids choices, I tell them no, and I make them do things like chores. For me, that is taking my kids very seriously but it has nothing what so ever to do with the TCS movement, which is about non-coersive parenting. I don't having anything against non-coersive parenting, it just isn't the right thing for my family at this time. (I've read about, attended a seminar, and tried it for awhile).

If you don't want to have a TV, that's great. I discourage my kids from watching excessive amounts of TV and have occassional declared a TV free week when I felt that my kids needed one (they usually self regulate quite well).

The thing I don't understand is why you label yourself TCS. What does the label matter? Why not just parent your child the way that feels right to you without attaching a label?

Quote:

The people who claim they let their kids choose WHATEVER they want...okay, has your 4 year old ever seen children going off to school? Are you going to instantly sign them up because they get it in their head that riding the bus might be cool, or they want a cool backpack or something like the other kids...etc (just an arbitrary example)
We've crossed this bridge. My older DD said she wanted to go to school the year before last so I asked her why. We had a long talk. She wanted to spend more time with kids her age doing interesting things. After talking for a while, she decided to try Girls Scouts rather than school. If she really wanted to go to school she could -- I'm not interested in keeping her home against her will.

Quote:

as long as you don't come into mine and act as though I am denying my child a fundamental human right because we DON'T watch it, and that I am a complete fraud in my child-rearing philosophies because of it.
I don't care if you don't have a TV. I don't think anyone else on the board does either. I don't understand why you are so attached to the TCS label, though, when their are many decisions that you feel you should make for your child. It is sort of like the label is trendy or something.

I'm not into TCS, but I know it. My kids have tremendous freedom. They have more control over their own lives than any other kids I know IRL who are their ages. But I can drawn a line when I need too -- which is why I know that the TCS label doesn't fit me.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
But I think he (and other young children) has less developed cognitive and decision making abilities than a preteen or teenager. .. But I feel at his toddler age he might not be able to consider all the information and weigh the sides. Do you all think they can make sound judgements across the board? I feel perhaps at 6 or 7. Most likely by 10 or 11.

I agree with you. My kids seldom saw TV as toddlers, watched a little as preschoolers, and self-regulate as school aged kids. I think that TV is bad for the developing mind of a very small child.

I think where we part ways is that I see watching some TV as a positive thing for my kids at the ages they are now. Your veiw seems to be that TV is always always a negative. Last week my kids got a video about subs from the library and watched several times. They were fascinated. It was as close to being on a sub as they can get. They learned about the history of subs, life on a sub, etc. Although I could have gotten a book about subs, it wouldn't have allowed them to roam the insides of a sub the same way.

I really think that how old a child is and what they are watching makes a HUGE difference.

TV is just a medium -- like the internet. Agruing about whether it is good or bad seems a bit like debating if the internet is good or bad. It really depends on which sites you go to and how much time you are spending.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PM*
Did I dream that participated in this thread? Something about not having to wean her child because she never got started...









Um, must have dreamed that. I said that on another thread about TV-Turnoff Week. And, seriously, I didn't mean it in a nasty way, just an explanation preparing readers for my less-than-super-helpful post.








As soon as he can sit still for movies and plays, I will be taking my pixie to theaters. He goes to puppet shows already. We've been to one outdoor performance of Rashoman which he really loved (but he made his comments about the actors & their costumes in a normal-volumed voice!







Fortunately, the surrounding audience was pretty laid back.) I don't have it in for all the visual media. I really like good films. I just don't like the abuse of the visual media vis-a-vis television.

And I'm lucky to live somewhere with a mountain of cinemas. Some even show the good stuff.

Anyhow, back to the topic. This is an interesting thread. I know next to nothing about TCS. But, I can't imagine it _requires_ television to work. TV has only been in existence since the 1930's. Humans don't _need_ it for their intellecual development. Otherwise, how would we account for Leibnitz, Descartes, Mozart, Confucious, Buddha, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Aristotle, Hypatia, and so on?









I'll be looking into the writing on TCS. Thanks.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
Do you plan on changing this policy when/if she does decide she wants to drink coffee? Or have sex at 12?

If she wants to drink coffee, either I can let her try some and hope she won't like it; stop drinking it myself and tell her no; or let her drink it whenever she wants. (Or I can turn into one of the "I get it and you don't" parents.)

If she wants to have sex when she is 12, I have to accept the fact that I have really failed as a parent. Or maybe I can just blame TV!


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If she wants to drink coffee, either I can let her try some and hope she won't like it; stop drinking it myself and tell her no; or let her drink it whenever she wants. (Or I can turn into one of the "I get it and you don't" parents.)

Both my kids wanted to try coffee so I let them. They thought it was nasty. They have no idea why I like it. Some of the things parents feel they need to control for their kids baffles me.

I don't see how stopping drinking it yourself and saying no is a good idea. I think that part of allowing our children to make their own choices in life is letting them do things even if we don't choose to do them ourselves. My 6 year old recently decided she wanted to play golf. I've never played golf, have no desire to, and think it is sort of a silly sport. None the less, I found some place where they teach 6 year olds to play golf. By your reasoning, I could just say, "I don't play golf so you can't either." I don't think that makes any sense.

Quote:

If she wants to have sex when she is 12, I have to accept the fact that I have really failed as a parent. Or maybe I can just blame TV!
:LOL :LOL :LOL

If my child said they wanted to have sex at 12 I would flip, but I would help them get birthcontrol, buy them rubbers, and tell them how to tell a boy to put on a rubber. For god's sake, if they are going to do it, they are going to do it. I would rather them tell me and be as safe as possible then keep it a secret.

I would also wonder where I went wrong. I would feel so sad if my DDs made that sort of decsion..if they had so little self-respect.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda KS*
Both my kids wanted to try coffee so I let them. They thought it was nasty. They have no idea why I like it. Some of the things parents feel they need to control for their kids baffles me.

I think coffee is a drug and not a food. It just seems wrong to me for young children to drink it. I've seen parents give coffee to 2- and 3-year-old children. I feel that if I don't want my children to have it, then I should be willing to give it up too. Just like smoking - children don't take it seriously when parents smoke and then tell the kids not to smoke.

I tried coffee when I was 13 and didn't like it. I didn't really start drinking it until I was 18. So maybe it won't even be an issue.

If my 12-year-old daughter wanted to have sex, I would intervene. It seems really weird to me that a child that young would really _want_ to have sex. I think most kids that are very interested in sex that young are being abused, and it's my job to protect my kids from abuse. Besides, I think it would be illegal for me to allow it; if a parent knows that a preteen child is sexually active and doesn't intervene, I think that would be a CPS issue. But that's a whole other thread...and my kids are so young it's hard to tell. Maybe when they are in middle school I will have morphed into a coercive, do-it-my-way kind of parent. :LOL


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Both of my dc have asked to try coffee and I said yes. I drink unsweetened espresso with milk and my dd made a face and my son couldn't get past the smell to even take a sip. If they really liked it I would heavily milk it down and give them some. I let them drink ice tea and they sometimes drink colas so they do get a little caffeine. My dd loves chocolate covered espresso beans and when I can afford them I give her a couple. Once I bought some and had them in the freezer, she ate half the bag (not even knowing what they were) and I couldn't figure out why she was acting so freaky. When she mentioned she had eaten lots of the candy in the freezer I told her what they were and explained that the candy was causing her bizarre jubilance :LOL . We both had a good laugh and still joke about it. So my dc do understand that caffeine is something that we need to be careful with.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Ive been drinking coffee since age 9 or so, and having sex since 13. The coffee thing is no big deal IMO, the sex at 13 thing is a bit more so









I wished my mom would have talked to me more about sex both before and after I became sexually active. Instead all I got before I had it was "Dont do it", and all I got for at least a year after I had it were words like "irresponsible" and such. This was one area my mom, who I think was a great mom btw, really dropped the ball in. My kids have had tons of info on sex and both of them say they are nowhere near ready for that kind of decision or relationship yet. (They are 11.5 and almost 14) When they are I will treat it as I have treat other things from them, with respect, guidance, and info.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
My dd loves chocolate covered espresso beans and when I can afford them I give her a couple. Once I bought some and had them in the freezer, she ate half the bag (not even knowing what they were) and I couldn't figure out why she was acting so freaky. When she mentioned she had eaten lots of the candy in the freezer I told her what they were and explained that the candy was causing her bizarre jubilance :LOL . We both had a good laugh and still joke about it. So my dc do understand that caffeine is something that we need to be careful with.

This is so funny! :LOL


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I think coffee is a drug and not a food. It just seems wrong to me for young children to drink it.

You wouldn't let your child have 1 sip so they could find out that is bitter and nasty?

To me, making a big harry deal out of it would make into this huge wonderful thing that the child would want the minute they got a chance. May be even keep drinking it though they hate it just because it is such a huge deal.

My kids have each had a sip -- enough to decide they hate it. Do you think that was "wrong?"


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think aversion therapy tends to backfire. A lot of kids I knew who started smoking and drinking at young ages were first introduced to substances by a parent who was trying to get the kid to hate it. It didn't work; the kid just fell in love with it.

But maybe with coffee it's different somehow.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Both my kids like coffee and drink it in moderation


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
Both my kids like coffee and drink it in moderation









Same here. Though moderation could be defined any number of ways I suppose.









My drink coffee and or tea several times a week. Often when first waking up like I do (coffee) or tea in the afternoon or night.







They've known how to make a pot of coffee for years now.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

We let ds1 have a sip of beer after he repeatedly asked to try it. He made the most disgusted face I've seen on him since he tried asparagus. He declared that it was "too spicy". So now, the excitement over the forbidden drink is gone.

We drink black tea together every day.

I'm really starting to think, as was stated earlier in the thread, that the whole addiction angle is genetic. I've heard people insist that making a drink taboo leads to alcoholism, that not exposing kids to drink leads to alcoholism and that early exposure leads to alcoholism. It can't be all of the above. I've known people who had what could only be described as addictive personalities. They didn't do anything ("good or bad") in small measures, very disconcerting to observe.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

We used to keep the recycling outside our door until we realized ds was taking the beer bottles for any left over sips.







Now they are out of reach. Don't french children regularly drink coffee with lots of warm milk and sugar?


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I think aversion therapy tends to backfire. A lot of kids I knew who started smoking and drinking at young ages were first introduced to substances by a parent who was trying to get the kid to hate it. It didn't work; the kid just fell in love with it.

But maybe with coffee it's different somehow.

I didn't introduce my kids to coffee in an attempt to get them to hate it. I drink coffee, they were curious, so I let them have a sip. I wasn't trying to do anything -- I didn't have an agenda. It's a totally different thing from "aversion therapy." Aversion therapy is an attempt to control a child. I wasn't trying to control -- I was letting them control themselves.

If they liked it and wanted to drink it in moderation, I wouldn't have an issue with it. Decaf with lots of milk isn't a big deal.

leftfield, I think there is something to the addictive personality idea. I wonder though, if it is all genetic or if it is a mix of nature and nuture. I have a hard time accepting that some people are just born to be addictive and some aren't. We all make choices about our behavior, and I think our role as parents is to help our kids grown into the kind of people who will be able to make good choices. I think the question should be how can we help our kids grow into people who will make good decisions when we aren't controlling their behavoir.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda KS*
I think the question should be how can we help our kids grow into people who will make good decisions when we aren't controlling their behavoir.











I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread, Linda.









Kaly


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

: to both the quote and the pp


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:

I didn't introduce my kids to coffee in an attempt to get them to hate it. I drink coffee, they were curious, so I let them have a sip. I wasn't trying to do anything -- I didn't have an agenda.



















@ Trader Joe's there is coffee available. Usually there is juice in this spot. ds1 saw & wanted to try. I figured he wouldn't like anything so bitter but don't you know... he loved it! Another, older woman, in the store saw him going back with the teensy paper cup to get more and laughed - she said lots of kids like coffee, surprisingly.
Fortunately he never connected it with coffee at home and has never asked. When we were little my parents drank tea. We were allowed weak tea with lots of milk and sugar but generally preferred to drink other things.

Alcohol is also a drug. My parents drank wine with supper. In fact, they were part of a local wine society and held tastings and such. They would allow us to have very watered down wine with supper, and slowly as we got older we were allowed more wine and less water here and there. My only problems with alcohol in college were that I could not stomach the slop that was offered in dorms and such and so hardly ever drank more than the one decent ale or wine I could afford when out. I drink less than one glass of wine a month.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

This thread is so OT! :LOL They give black tea to the orphan babies here and you should the havoc it wreaks on their poor little intestines.









Anyway, I want to start a thread on what we limit and why. How do our own issues/experiences affect what we decide to limit and not. Does that sound interesting? It's something talked about quite a bit in the TCS movement -- how we shouldn't let our own biases affect the way we interact with our kids.

And FTR, I identify as TCS only on this board. I feel it's only fair to let other posters know where I'm coming from when dishing out the GD advice.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Sounds really interesting!
Kaly


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I limit TV, mall -going, fast food, high fructose corn syrup, trans fats, meat, non organic food, artificial sweetners, and put- downs.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

UUMom -- For some reason, that makes me smile.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

We've always believed that if our children did not need parents, they would have been born sea turtles.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*







We've always believed that if our children did not need parents, they would have been born sea turtles.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I limit TV, mall -going, fast food, high fructose corn syrup, trans fats, meat, non organic food, artificial sweetners, and put- downs.

So are those things that you limit, or outright forbid?

Because I limit some of those things, but in a way that is more of a suggestion. For example, the co-op my kids go to serves ritz crackers- I have no problem with that, but I don't really want them to be something that my kids eat at home. So if we happen to be somewhere they sell them and DS asks for some, I might say, "I'd rather not buy those to have at our house. They aren't very good for our bodies, and at home I like us to have good stuff for our bodies. What do you think? Do you still feel like you want them?" And much of the time the answer is no, but if it's yes, then that's ok too. (Not that my kids don't eat their fair share of crap, but I try to keep it out of the house.)

I limit gun play/killing play in more of a forbid type way.

Kaly


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't forbid anything. It doesn't work like that here. It sounds like we are not that different. My kids are older (6,11, 12 & 16) and they can make certain choices, but i would never take them to a fast food place, and I would never buy diet soda, for instance. I might buy natural soda, or even 'regular' soda if a child was having a b'day party and the felt offerring soda to friends was important. I figure we live int he world and while i want my kids to make good choices, I don't see how 'forbidding' everything would serve them well.

Like you, i won't buy the stuff, but I don't do guilt over food. I feed them 'my way' until they have there verbal say otherwise. I suppose i did 'forbid' certain things when they were small, mostly by substituting and just not offerring it , and not putting myself in a situation that was uncomfortable. I would never go with friends and their kids for 'happy meals', fi. My 6 yr old has never had one, (although I think my older kids must have at some point). I just wouldn't go there with a playgroup say, and then have to 'forbid' the thing they came for, kwim? I would also feel going to BK or whatever for salad and an apple, would be like saying I approve of their cesspool food and ugly roadside buildings that have made this country look like crap.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Oh, I wouldn't buy guns, but i don't get involved that way in my children's play. I can't possibly understand their play needs. Kids need space that adults don't occupy. Their imaginative world is too important for me to be messing with it. I've seen too much fake/stilted play in my time to be putting my adult issues on my kids play. Playing with sticks or even gladiator with swords doesn't get any commentary at all from me.

We have plenty of other opportunity to share our values with my kids. All of my kids have played Manhunt or 'bad guys' etc. but they are all against war.

I take it back about not buying guns- I am sure i have bought water 'soakers' which is just another name for water 'gun'.


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