# Daughter convinced she "needs" braces we can't afford - help!



## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

So, DD is 13, almost 14, in 8th grade and is self conscious about her teeth. She has one crooked tooth on the bottom that only shows when her mouth is completely open and is not in the front, so really, no one ever sees it unless she points it out. She has another tooth on the top side that isn't exactly crooked, it just grew in maybe 2mm higher than the rest of her teeth but still hasn't grown in completely and might resolve itself, again, not in the front but the one next to her first molar. The dentist didn't recommend braces but said it could be corrected if we wanted to, but we really can't afford it anyway so it's moot for the time being.

Issue # 1 is we honestly can't afford it, and no matter how many times I've explained to her the sacrifices our family would have to make, she still keeps talking about it. We are in debt, my partner has over $2k in dental work that needs to be done in the next 6 months before it becomes too severe to treat, and I have sleep apnea that needs to be addressed, so a crooked tooth or two is low on our family's medical needs right now. She enjoys going out to eat and shopping at the mall with her friends, and I told her she would have to kiss that all goodbye along with any vacations we might take in the next 2 years, but she still doesn't get it. She has been getting allowance for 3 years now and is aware of our budget when we take them shopping for things, yet she still thinks money just magically appears in our bank account somehow. My partner and I both work 6 days a week and live month to month.

Issue #2 is she takes terrible care of her teeth. We got her sealants on all of her molars last year and somehow she managed to get 2 cavities this year, down from 6 at the beginning of last school year. She also had silver capped baby teeth when she was younger on 4 teeth. I have never had a cavity in my life. It is obvious that she doesn't brush well enough or frequently enough, no matter how much we hound her, and insists that she drinks plenty of water even though I see her drink maybe 1 6 ounce glass a day. She drinks at least 3 glasses of juice a day, even though we've told her it's bad for her teeth, and since the "juice rations" happened she still manages to drink as much as we have when she can (we only buy 2 cartons of juice per week now, to try and limit the amount of sugary drinks she and her sister drink). I have a hard time feeling like we should pay $4 grand we don't have to fix someone's teeth when they won't even do their part to take care of them.

And, of course, she's an angsty teenager who thinks she knows everything and her parents are idiots, so she won't listen to us. It's always "well so and so has perfect teeth, everyone I know got braces", even though I try to remind her that their teeth are only perfect because their braces just came off. I try and have her look at people's teeth on TV to see that even these pretty, young actresses don't have perfect teeth most of the time, and that sometimes teeth that are too perfect look fake, but she doesn't hear me.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If you can't afford them, you can't afford them, and there's no point discussing it with her as if it were up to her or due to something she's done. Every time you talk about the sacrifices she'd have to make, or how she doesn't take as good care of her teeth as you'd like, you put the ball back in her court, and I'm not surprised she's interpreting that as if she has some control over it. I'd stop even discussing it, but empathize with her desire for them anyway. "I know you'd like those couple of teeth straightened, and I wish we could afford it, but we just can't."


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Sounds like there really isn't anything to do but continue to lay out the facts for her and not let her nagging get to you. If it's cosmetic, not financially possible AND she has a history of not caring for her teeth (and you have to be really meticulous with braces) then what else can be done?

At 14, she might be able to find some work. My 14-year-old made about 2 grand this summer as a camp aide. Even babysitting might bring in enough to get her started. You might ask if there is anything that can be improved with a retainer. I had a twisted tooth in 3rd grade and it was corrected with a retainer which is much cheaper.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

The dentist said a retainer would definitely help, so maybe that's the way to go. Again, I would like to see her show some responsibility for her teeth first. She acts like we owe it to her to pay for braces, like it's something that's medically necessary and not cosmetic, and she is a very pretty girl regardless of her teeth so it's not like her esteem should be suffering, nor is it apparent that she has low self esteem. She makes excellent grades, is running for student council president, and last year she wanted to invite 30 kids to her birthday party. I think she's just got it into her head that she needs perfect teeth to be the person she sees in her head, perfect at everything. We are concerned that she is too focused on her appearance (she can't even organize her closet because she has so many clothes, many people in my family are compulsive shoppers and everything good is her size so she has a different outfit for every day of the week), and I think the whole wanting braces thing would just be enabling her. She already had to write a 5-page essay to be able to shave her legs, and we make sure she is educated about the male gaze in advertising and how many, if not all, norms in western beauty are influenced by men, but she still wants to be this perfect cheerleader type for some reason, probably to rebel from our feminist ways. *sigh*


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Maybe she's just looking for some autonomy. I think it might have been overkill to require a 5-page essay to allow her to shave her legs. I would give my opinion on it, but in the long run, my kids' legs are their legs. One place she could have autonomy is to pay for the retainer herself. Have her call to find out how much it will cost, have her come up with a plan to save up money for it, and allow her to follow through and save the money. Or not, if she decides it isn't that important. But it might be a good opportunity to make it completely up to her.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

I see where people might see we're being a little harsh with the essay, but she is very advanced and a 5 page essay is nothing to her. She was also 11 at the time and her leg hair was blonde peach fuzz, so her desire to shave wasn't to keep kids from teasing her or anything. She gets to make plenty of decisions about things in her life, in fact, we offer her many opportunities to do things that she turns down. We even paid her to go to a summer camp where they wrote autobiographical stories to perform onstage, and she loves writing and theater, so I feel like we coddle her a little much for her age and give her freedoms she's not ready for. Yes, her body is her body, but as her parents, we have the right to tell her when we think she's causing harm or exacerbating existing issues. What else is a parent's job besides protecting their children?


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

Braces aren't a now or never thing, a lot of people get them as adults. If you feel you've explained your position clearly, then it might be time to just tell her it's no longer up for discussion. At some point I'd introduce a consequence for her beating a dead horse.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mummoth*
> 
> Braces aren't a now or never thing, a lot of people get them as adults. If you feel you've explained your position clearly, then it might be time to just tell her it's no longer up for discussion. At some point I'd introduce a consequence for her beating a dead horse.


But sometimes they are. I have a giant gap in my teeth that my parents wouldn't fix. The only way to fix it now is veneers or something, I can't move those teeth at this point in life. At 14, if she's serious enough about it, she's old enough to start saving money to do something about it. Babysitting or part time jobs (well at 15 in most states and even that is usually McDonalds) will go a long way for a kid with no expenses to save money.

Also OP, I'm beyond particular about my teeth. I brush, floss, see my dentist and NOTHING matters. Even when I was seeing her every 3 months I had cavities often. Some people just have bad luck, no matter how good their parents teeth are.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jdsf*
> 
> The dentist said a retainer would definitely help, so maybe that's the way to go. Again, I would like to see her show some responsibility for her teeth first. She acts like we owe it to her to pay for braces, like it's something that's medically necessary and not cosmetic, and she is a very pretty girl regardless of her teeth so it's not like her esteem should be suffering, nor is it apparent that she has low self esteem. She makes excellent grades, is running for student council president, and last year she wanted to invite 30 kids to her birthday party. I think she's just got it into her head that she needs perfect teeth to be the person she sees in her head, perfect at everything. We are concerned that she is too focused on her appearance (she can't even organize her closet because she has so many clothes, many people in my family are compulsive shoppers and everything good is her size so she has a different outfit for every day of the week), and I think the whole wanting braces thing would just be enabling her. *She already had to write a 5-page essay to be able to shave her legs, and we make sure she is educated about the male gaze in advertising and how many, if not all, norms in western beauty are influenced by men*, but she still wants to be this perfect cheerleader type for some reason, probably to rebel from our feminist ways. *sigh*


Wow. This goes on my list of things I would have thought was a good idea and then I heard someone else say they did it, now I dont think its good idea.
you cant afford it. Its cosmetic. If she wants to have braces, I think she should get a job and pay for them just like she would for makeup.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jdsf*
> 
> Again, I would like to see her show some responsibility for her teeth first.


One of my kids is currently in braces, the other in invisalign. Because she doesn't take care of her teeth, even if she needed the braces, there wouldn't be any point in getting them. Our orthodontist also says theirs no point in straightening the teeth of kids who drink a lot of soda.

Orthodontia makes dental hygene more difficult and raises the stakes -- food particles can get trapped under it.

As far as a retainer, how well do you think she'll do holding on to the thing and not losing it?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

That's why the two of my kids that could benefit from braces don't have them. My BIL has some horrible looking teeth due to the mess his braces created. I just refuse to trade one problem for another so my two will not get braces until it's important enough to them that they tend to their oral hygeine.


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Two of my kids have braces because they were badly needed - twisted teeth, out of line and crooked teeth - definitely not cosmetic. They know full well that we will not be taking any vacations and that every other piece of our budget has been slashed until after the braces are off because of the cost. I have no regrets about them getting them because they are truly needed but it is very difficult for us. At one point one dd was resisting taking proper care of her teeth and braces. We discussed it and said if she couldn't do her part then the braces would come off and she could wait until she was an adult and prepared to care for them properly and pay for them herself if she wasn't going to uphold her end of the deal.

If you can't afford it, you can't afford it and no amount of whining on her part will change that. There are some dental things that need to be taken care of while the body is still growing but what you have described does not sound like one of them. I can think of a half dozen adults I know who decided to get braces in their 30's. They all had successful orthodontic treatment. It is a fact of life that not every family can afford everything that "everyone else" can. Some 13 year olds test every limit they can and maybe that is part of what she is doing with you. I would be kind but very direct in telling her that while you appreciate how much she wishes you could do this for her that the topic is no longer open for discussion.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

Good answers, thanks everyone. She has managed to not lose a cell phone or wallet since she's had them for the last few years, so I think she's responsible enough to keep up with a retainer.

It has also become apparent to me that she is looking for things about her body to be unhappy with, and says things like "my pinkies are so weird" and stuff that's clearly just her being really self-aware and awkward right now, which I definitely remember being at her age. I was always looking at what was wrong, not what I had going for me, and I think that's the big issue here.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Uh... so confused here. Dental hygiene in kids are the responsibility of their parents. However, I've had perfect teeth my whole life, DH terrible teeth. DD2 has so many cavities it's ridiculous, we were starting to wondering if her toothpaste was doing it. Seriously they don't eat any junk at all. DD2, Cavity free. I was too until 18, not sure how I ate so much candy when my mom wasn't looking it was gross.

As far as the braces go, my husband got them done for free. Sometimes, you can get them done for free or low cost. If the Dentist says retainer I'd try that first. Another thing you can get done at low cost. But I don't understand why she's being treated like her wish for nicer teeth is so terrible. When we were teenagers we all grew up wishing something was different about ourselves, and some of us couldn't even tell our moms about it. She can tell you about her insecurities. I know for a fact if I even said one thing about my acne being so terrible my mom would have told me it was because I didn't wash my face enough or didn't drink enough water... it was my fault. I didn't take care of things I wasn't taught to take care of really. However as I grew up and found out that I had the most sensitive skin on earth and the fact that I washed my face so many times a day I made it worse makes me pretty upset. I remember being so mad thinking, I look so ugly and it's my fault. You don't see it any other way at that age.

Also the whole not adhering to your fem lifestyle... yeah my parents were pretty upset that I didn't conform to their Christian lifestyle either. Guess what, as much as we want to mold them into these great and wonderful beings we hope them to be... they will still choose their own path.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> Uh... so confused here. Dental hygiene in kids are the responsibility of their parents. However, I've had perfect teeth my whole life, DH terrible teeth. DD2 has so many cavities it's ridiculous, we were starting to wondering if her toothpaste was doing it. Seriously they don't eat any junk at all. DD2, Cavity free. I was too until 18, not sure how I ate so much candy when my mom wasn't looking it was gross.
> 
> ...


We are as responsible as we can be with a teenager's teeth. We remind her to brush and floss at least twice a day, we limit her sugary drinks (again, as much as we can, she's a teenager), and we remind her to the point of nagging that dental hygiene is super important, especially given her track record. Her step sister had braces (which DD's father happily helped pay for, and is now refusing to do for his own biological daughter, but that's a different story) and she knows all the work that goes into taking care of them, the things you can't eat, etc. and I KNOW she isn't ready for that responsibility. She refuses to floss with regular dental floss, she will only use the fancy disposable flossers even though the dentist gave her a reusable flosser. She does not take care of her teeth, period, regardless how many cavities are her "fault" or not. She even admitted to not brushing her teeth at her dad's house for days at a time because he only buys sustainable toothbrushes that she doesn't like. It is clear that she doesn't care.

We are not the kind of parents who condone cosmetic procedures to feel better about oneself. You will always find something to hate if you are looking for it. Always. The issue here is her frame of mind, if you actually saw her teeth you wouldn't even think there was anything wrong. She is a gorgeous, self-assured girl who is letting western standards of beauty get the best of her. And as a parent, I would be failing her if I enabled that sort of thinking. Sorry if you don't agree.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I know, I rethought my post and I realize that for me it's more of an issue I had with my parents. You're obviously a caring mother, I don't mean to offend. I'm very sorry.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

Nothing a "caring mother" hates more than being told they're doing it wrong  Thanks for the reply!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> Dental hygiene in kids are the responsibility of their parents.


for CHILDREN yes, but for TEENS no.

Seriously. this is a life skill they need firmly in place and while different humans will reach that milestone at a slightly different age, if both my kids didn't take dental hygiene uber seriously, I simply couldn't make them take the extra step necessary to make their orthodontia work. It's not even that I wouldn't want to, but that they are simple to independent from me for it to work.

I cannot go through life with my kids -- follow them around at school, attend every sleep over, etc and make sure they do this right. They gotta be able to do it, or I just wasted thousands and thousands of dollars on something they will have to re-do (and re-pay for) as adults. and that has the potential to cause MORE decay.

JDSF, I think you are doing the right thing by not spending thousands of dollars you don't have on a procedure your DD doesn't not need. Besides the money and superficial thing, orthodontia hurts. It's not something to do just to fit in.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

DS is 9 and has had braces because there wasn't any room for one of his adult teeth to come up, and it would have become fused to his jaw. I considered the braces a necessity. At his age, he's old enough to get the toothbrush in and around the braces well enough to clean thoroughly... all I did was tell him to brush his teeth and make sure he stayed in the bathroom for more than 30 seconds. The braces are off and there was no decay. A lot of that I think is genetics... I'm 34 and have ONE filling in my life that was so minor I didn't require freezing. The orthodontists office has a contest each month... they can tell if a kid has been brushing their teeth and if they have they get to put their name in for a gift certificate to a toy store or something like that... that went a long way toward motivating him.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

No problem JDSF, the best part about knowing you were in the wrong is just saying it. I can do that. I still feel pretty bad. I guess I just try to see it as they would but then again their minds are so clouded really.

I'll be the mom who rushes my kid in for something for their skin... I know it. Ugh... I just remember the horrible way I felt!


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I'll be the mom who rushes my kid in for something for their skin... I know it. Ugh... I just remember the horrible way I felt!


That can backfire too though. My DD started breaking out and I really tried everything I could to help her get in under control before she was too embarrassed by it. All that did was make DD intentionally NOT use the products on top of resenting me for what she sees as meddling. Then it could STILL be my fault she was breaking out. Sometimes you really can't win.

I've learned a lot about my own parents from being a parent myself. I lot of what I grew up resenting and believing was just plain old wrong. I've had to really take some responsibility for my side of things, my false perceptions, ect.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

A lot of orthodontists will do payment plans and base it on your income. The one we used for our 15 yr old son does this. And, a lot of them will accept Medicaid but not sure if Medicaid covers orthodontists or not.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I believe Medicaid will cover it if it's necessary to correct something that interferes with a person's bite or to make room for incoming teeth. But not for aesthetic or cosmetic reasons.

Genes play a roll. My16 y.o. dd has I think 3 fillings, my 12 y.o. ds ended up with 3 metal caps on his baby teeth and a lot of fillings. I feed them the same foods and brushed their teeth the same when they were little. Basically I treated them the same. My theory is that my dd inherited my hardier teeth and ds inherited dh's more cavity-prone teeth.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Find the closest dental school and take her for an evaluation. Find out how much they would charge.

It probably would not be more than $100 a month.

Then, help her start up a babysitting business or something similar. Mow lawns in the summer. If she doesn't keep up her end, the orthodontia comes off.

If her teeth are crowded (what you are describing) IF SHE CAN PAY FOR IT let her get expanders now. You can't expand the jaws in adulthood the same way. The sutures are going to fuse.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
> It probably would not be more than $100 a month.
> 
> Then, help her start up a babysitting business or something similar. Mow lawns in the summer. If she doesn't keep up her end, the orthodontia comes off.


I'm making payments on orthodontia right now, and that's not how it works. I signed an agreement, just like one does when they buy a car, saying I would pay the entire amount. My minor children could not have made that agreement. If I don't pay, it's like any other bill I owe money on. They don't just take the orthodontia away.

That's just not how it works.

I think setting a kid with NO track record of making money up to be responsible for coming up with $100 a month is setting them up for failure. Even if your idea would work, I don't think it would be a good idea for a middle school student.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

That is a lot of money for a kid to come up with. This really is a hard one for me. If it's unnecessary, then have the doctor tell her it unnecessary. I'm sure you can find one who will. I know a lot of people who got braces as adults and paid for them their selves. We don't always get what we want when we want it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

She could get a job earning minimum wage at that age and earn at least a great deal of the cost.

I see teeth issues as bigger than other unnecessary cosmetic things because teeth are a huge class marker in the US, although that's another unfair thing that people shouldn't have to conform to. Regardless of whether they should _have to_ conform to it, eventually all of our kids will be looking for jobs and that class marker will come up as they interview. Any imperfections in teeth, including completely cosmetic things like color, really stand out in the interview process. So my kids will have perfect teeth. I am buckling to pressure, or at least not making my kids fight that fight.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> She could get a job earning minimum wage at that age and earn at least a great deal of the cost.


She's 13.

Most highschool students I know are having trouble finding part time jobs because the kind of work that teens used to do is now being done by college grads.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Oh, I didn't know that. I had a job at 13 that paid minimum wage and I saved up a decent amount. It might be worth looking, but OTOH I can see that it could be harder.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

it's illegal for her to work in most states. I had a part time job in Highschool and it took me a year to save up 1,000. I had to pay for so many other things like sports and cheerleading uniforms, on top of my school lunches and clothes. Talk about a lot of stress for a teenager. Oh and my insurance... and my car... That didn't include the usually movies and other stuff teenagers are supposed to do. I didnt do it because in my mind I had more important things I had to pay for. I wanted to go on the Senior trip to France and couldn't go because I was short 200, due to paying my insurance. Yeah learning to take care of what is important and earning your own money is a great lesson until it takes away from being a kid.

I'm not saying don't have her pay for it, just saying it's alot to put on a 13 yr old.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
> 
> But sometimes they are. I have a giant gap in my teeth that my parents wouldn't fix. The only way to fix it now is veneers or something, I can't move those teeth at this point in life. At 14, if she's serious enough about it, she's old enough to start saving money to do something about it. Babysitting or part time jobs (well at 15 in most states and even that is usually McDonalds) will go a long way for a kid with no expenses to save money.
> 
> Also OP, I'm beyond particular about my teeth. I brush, floss, see my dentist and NOTHING matters. Even when I was seeing her every 3 months I had cavities often. Some people just have bad luck, no matter how good their parents teeth are.


This.

My mother could not afford braces for me as a teen and the dentist said they weren't really needed but would be helpful. Well, now as an adult the wear and tear of unproperly lined up teeth is taking a toll and I'm looking at some pretty severe dental work that will be very pricey. Dental issues do not go away, they get worse.

Also, um, my son had I think 9 cavities at 18 months. No known cause other than bad genetics. My poor mother has had cavities and root canals more than I can count. Some people can take care of their teeth and still have problems.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I had a part time job in Highschool and it took me a year to save up 1,000.


After insurance, my DD's braces are costing us $3,000. She is the same age as the OPer's DD, and she recently started a cake decorating business. She's saved $100 so far. And she is very mature, creative, and responsible *for her age.*

I cannot image saddling her with the burden of paying for her braces. It would be wrong.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Certainly wouldn't be fair. IDK, from 12 on I payed for everything. Seriously. EVERYTHING. Also I wasn't taken to a dentist. Unless I was going to pay for the Bill. And I was told that after I graduated I would be paying rent if I stayed home... And that is how you lose your kid. I moved away, hey I took care of so much you made it obvious I didn't need you. That was my thinking. I still feel that way. However if kids can save up for a car... lots do. They can save up for braces.

If she wants them bad enough, I think if she understands that it will take awhile and if she's in it for the long haul and really wants them maybe it's selling her short not to think she couldn't do it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I was thinking of the cost of a retainer, not the cost of braces. And she might not be able to pay all, but if it's important to her, she could work as a mother's helper somewhere or something and help save up to some extent, to show that she's really serious about it. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a teenager to help pay for something that is cosmetic and not unnecessary. She's only 13 now, but the retainer would not have to be done immediately. It could be done at 15 or 16.


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## ozark (Feb 3, 2010)

Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.

Could it be that you took your sweet DD of the breast too soon? If so, then the cost of the braces should only be on your shoulders.

I breastfed my girl til 83 months (6years, 3 mo) and at 25 she still has never had a cavity or a cold.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


I've heard there is *some relationship*, but there is no absolute correlation. My husband was not breastfed at all, and has never had a cavity and has perfect teeth. My dd was breastfed for 2.5 years (not 6 but that's pretty unusual) and has never had a cavity but has crooked teeth and will need braces. Lots of moms here have practiced child-led weaning and have had kids with cavities, and I'm guessing crooked teeth. I guess I think your suggestion that it's her fault is unfair.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> Could it be that you took your sweet DD of the breast too soon? If so, then the cost of the braces should only be on your shoulders.


WHAT??????

I breastfed both my kids. I tandem nursed. The older one weaned at herself at 2. The younger one I weaned when she was nearly 4. My younger DD had SEVERAL cavities as a toddler and is now in braces. She started getting cavities WHILE she was still nursing.

My other DD is in Invisalign,

Besides, the OPer's DD doesn't NEED braces -- she just wants them. There is no NEED, just a desire to look more our culture says we should all look. Nothing is wrong with her. Nothing. If she wanted a nose job and researched showed that BF babies had more socially desirable noses than non-BF babies, do you think her parents should shell out the money for that too?

This is about LOOKS and WANTS. Not needs.

Parents are not, IMHO, required to pay for everything their child wants. (Esp when they don't actually have the money!)

Nor is it appropriate to BLAME mothers for the way their kids turn out. All studies are based on averages. Non of this parenting stuff comes with guarantees. Just because one can say if you do X, Y is the more likely outcome, it does not follow that if you don't get Y, you did anything wrong. It's just averages.

(sorry for the vent)


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


You can pretty much find anyone to support any tie you wish to make. If you choose to follow a naturopath and nurse until your child is 6, that's your choice. However, it's sort of ridiculous to tell another parent their children's teeth are crooked because she didn't nurse long enough. It's mostly genetics and a little bit environment. If your 4-year-old was drinking bottles of juice at bedtime and still on a binky... well yeah, parents can take some credit for cavities and crooked teeth. However, most of it's just genetics. My kids baby teeth came in crooked and some even fused together while they were still nursing. They didn't even GET adult teeth until they were close to 9-years-old and both self-weaned long before then! They just have DH's teeth and the whole family has these big teeth in little mouths. Thankfully, they also got DH's perfect eye sight instead of mine lol. It's a trade-off. Neither my kids have had a cavity yet but then, neither did my dad until 40. Neither did I until after my second child was born. Nursing is great. I totally support it but let's not pretend it supercedes genetics and makes a parent better or worse.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


Bottle fed teen dd has PERFECT straight, white, teeth, nary a cavity to be found (no flouride either). I don't think blame is helpful to the discussion.


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


Wow, Ozark. So self-righeous. And uninformed. Please don't give advice.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Is the issue that you truly can't afford it or that you see no reason that she needs them because in your opinion, she is already beautiful? Here, 14 is old enough to legally work a part time job. There are a lot of restrictions on the hours they can work (not past 7, I believe). If it means that much to her, I would let her know that I could put $XX towards it, and she can work to earn the rest.

If your true reason is only cost, then stop bringing up all the extra (feminist) reasons. If your suspicions are true, that she is rebelling against her feminist upbringing then hounding home the point is only going to make it worse, especially if the real reason is cost.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


This information makes me feel uncomfortable, and I find it hard to believe that you are serious.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I was kind of thinking that too. Except I do know people like this. The I did this and that's why my kid is perfect, I'm a better parent than you types.

I will say my kids don't have eye problems because I spit in their eyes as infants... my grandma told me too... wait I'm lying I didn't do that.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I put breastmilk in my babies eye, and I totally do think breastmilk helps with teeth but holy funny, (isnt that what you say Imakcerka? ) Ill bet this opens up a can, personally Id rather my kid have a cold than nurse at 6 years old. Lots of moms do it, but not me, not ever. IMO, old enough for school = too old for boobies.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

A 5 page essay to be allowed to shave her legs? I understand the values you're trying to raise her with, but maybe you've forgotten how brutal junior high and high school can be. Not allowing her to do things like shave her legs is more likely to lead her to rebel from your ideals than embrace them if you ask me. At some point, we need to start turning over some control and responsibility to our kids. As for the braces, if you can't afford them, you can't afford them. Don't underestimate how much not having straight teeth may be impacting her confidence though. If it was my kid, I would try to work out a plan for her to work towards paying a portion, and me to work towards paying a portion, even if it was small, with the stipulation that my portion would only be donated to the cause if she followed through on brushing, cutting soda, etc. I would give her a path towards getting the braces though, even if that didn't involve a penny out of my pocket. I'd at least sit down, talk about the costs, how many hours of work she'd need to do to pay for them, what sorts of jobs she might be able to do, how to get those jobs, etc. Brushing her off as if she is anti-feminist for wanting straight teeth is going to make her feel like you are minimizing her feelings and are out of touch (not saying you are out of touch).


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

As with many things this age, I am discovering, the adult interpretation of a situation can be vastly different than that of an adolescent. My dd has a tooth that is descending very, very, slowly. The dentist thinks it's fine-we'll re-eval every 6 mos at the cleanings. I cannot tell you how mortifying my dd finds this tooth issue. She is convinced everyone sees it, that she looks different from her friends...really to the point that she went through a time of smiling with a closed mouth. We offer lots of reassurance, and try to understand that her perception is different from ours.

Not saying that the OP's dd needs braces, just that sometimes it's important to meet your child's concerns with empathy, and leave it there for a while. Overthinking it through whatever lens you use (feminism, AP, etc.) doesn't always lend anything to the situation because that's not what it's about for your child.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Yes holy funny is my thing.

APT, sometimes we forget what it's like to be that age and we put our hopes and expectations on our girls in an unrealistic way. My little sister called me at 14 crying her eyes out because Mom wouldn't let her shave or pluck her eyebrows. She had 1 brow. And it was ferocious! Also we're half mexican... gee whiz did my sister get the hairy end of the stick. While she tried hard not to let things get to her, those legs were practically warming devices. And people always commented about her stache! I begged my step dad to let her shave and take her in to get her brow made into two and bleach her crumb catcher.

Heck yes, my mom was mad at us. However she wasn't seeing what dad and I saw. She ignored the fact that she was stressed every day going to school and felt uncomfortable all the time. No matter how much we hope they can just love their bodies, it's not always going to happen that way. Making her remain hairy like the good lord... or something like that made her was not fair. Especially since I know for a fact my mother owns stock in hair bleach and wax! I kid.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozark*
> 
> Ya know, my naturopath had always told me that the need for braces and number of cavities are closely related to how long the patient was breastfed.
> 
> ...


I nursed all my children till they were around 3. 2 do not need orthodontia - one does. All 3 had numerous childhood cavities - but have had few cavities adult teeth. That is life.

There are numerous reasons for childhood decay and needing of orthodontia - I would not for one minute assume a child with dental issues was the result of premature weaning.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> A 5 page essay to be allowed to shave her legs? I understand the values you're trying to raise her with, but maybe you've forgotten how brutal junior high and high school can be. Not allowing her to do things like shave her legs is more likely to lead her to rebel from your ideals than embrace them if you ask me. At some point, we need to start turning over some control and responsibility to our kids.


Ditto. I wasn't allowed to shave my legs until my MOM thought I was ready. This resulted in lots of embarrassment, me wearing jeans through all of 6th grade (which also got me picked on & made fun of, since it was often over 90 degrees), and ultimately going behind her back & just shaving on my own, even though I was generally a very very very obedient 'perfect' child. I had a really visceral reaction to reading about the 5-page-essay thing.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karne*
> 
> Not saying that the OP's dd needs braces, just that sometimes it's important to meet your child's concerns with empathy, and leave it there for a while. Overthinking it through whatever lens you use (feminism, AP, etc.) doesn't always lend anything to the situation because that's not what it's about for your child.


I agree with this too. I don't know, this thread is actually really triggering for me to read, that feeling of being so controlled by my parents and my feelings so minimized & ridiculed... I am not saying the OP is anything like my parents, just that it brings up similar feelings for me, things I think contributed to an eating disorder & other really serious issues... Maybe I'm just sensitive, IDK.

And I can't tell you how much easier it is for me to eat food because I had braces. I don't know how bad my teeth were, maybe they were really bad, all I know is I was never able to eat apples, corn, popcorn, etc. until after I'd had braces. But I guess if the dentist says they are fine then your DD's teeth probably aren't that bad.

Oh and I was weaned by 9mos and I have never had a single cavity (though I did need braces!)


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Adeline'sMama-
I need you to remove your post calling someone a troll and your subsequent discusion of it. Feel free to debate the post, but do not turn things into a personal attack. Disagreements are fine as long as they are respectful.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Does the person who didn't do anything but criticize the mother by using a holier than thou comment need to remove hers too? It was basically telling her that she didn't do right by her daughter by not nursing her kid til she was 6 thus giving her perfect health.

I too criticized the mother but then recanted when I realized I was being unfair. And thankfully she accepted my apology.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Closely related? I very much doubt it. I think if you factor in that parents who breastfeed are more likely to pay some attention to nutrition, there is probably no relationship.

I was breast fed for 6 weeks. I had widely spaced teeth in a perfect bite and no cavities until well into adulthood.

My daughter was nursed for over 5 years. She has had numerous cavities starting around the time of weaning and went into orthodontia at 7.

My son was nursed for over 4 years and has had one or two cavities. He will need very little orthodontia if any.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> Does the person who didn't do anything but criticize the mother by using a holier than thou comment need to remove hers too? It was basically telling her that she didn't do right by her daughter by not nursing her kid til she was 6 thus giving her perfect health.
> 
> I too criticized the mother but then recanted when I realized I was being unfair. And thankfully she accepted my apology.


As long as a sentiment, whether or not you or I agree with it, it expressed respectfully, it can stay. Again, disagreement is fine. It's part of a discusion community.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karne*
> 
> Not saying that the OP's dd needs braces, just that sometimes it's important to meet your child's concerns with empathy, and leave it there for a while. Overthinking it through whatever lens you use (feminism, AP, etc.) doesn't always lend anything to the situation because that's not what it's about for your child.


This is a good point.

Currently with 2 kids in orthodontia and knowing first hand the expense, extra work and PAIN involved, I feel like the odd one out in the thread for not being gun ho about getting braces for kid who doesn't need them.

But I believe when we speak very respectfully to our teens and take their point of view seriously, things go better in our relationships with them.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

It you have a question regarding the moderation of the thread, please PM me and avoid taking the thread further off course.


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

I was bottle fed and didn't see a dentist until adulthood. I have straight teeth and no cavities. My daughters were both breastfed for over 4 years, have had good nutrition and dental care. They both have badly needed braces. Maybe their teeth would have been even worse if they had not breastfed but I am thinking it was getting their dad's teeth-genes instead of mine that led to the scary orthodontist bills.


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