# I spanked



## byfaith (Nov 2, 2004)

: sad thing is...it worked. I was up to my eyeballs with misbehavior...throwing things inthe floor after knowing she shouldn't..she has done it about 20 times literally. I tried all the "right" things to redirect ehr behavior. I finally spanked her (not out of anger) and she stopped. DH says "see i told you that we need to spank" I really do not want to ..but what else do I do?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

The first thing I would ask myself is *why* it 'worked'. Personally, I think 14 months is way to young to be considered misbehaving.

What were you doing before that didn't work?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Hmmmmm.......

Your question is what else do you do? Continue to re-direct or remove your dd from the situation.

I noticed she is 13.5 months old. Honestly, your dd did not learn anything from you hitting her. Imagine her shock and surprise. It may have seemed like she stopped, but she only stopped because she was so stunned. She didn't learn anything. At 13.5 months, you can't expect her to learn cause and effect. All that poor baby knows is that mommy hit her for no reason. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, just please look at this from her perspective.

You sound sincere and that you want to reach out and get help. Perhaps some other members have studies that you and your dh can look over......

I know it can be hard to buck the system and go against what everyone is telling you IRL. This is probably all you have ever known or heard. But it is wrong.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

i have, too, and i deeply regret it. later my child showed a "fear" of me and a deep hurt that mommy would hurt him. those are my worst parenting moments, i'm afraid to confess. of course it worked. he was in shock! i will never do it again. it takes much more of an emotional involvement and physical presence, i think, for me. you know one thing that i love: counting to five. someone told me about a method called 1,2,3 magic. i never read it but i got the idea and it's a beautiful thing. timeouts don't really work for us, but giving him some "quiet time alone" usually works. he's 4yo now - very different from a 13.5 mo. hey i just realized that ds2 is 13.5 months old, too. he was born dec. 13, 2003. what about yours? now, as far as he's concerned, i definitely can't spank him. i know he doesn't get it. he's a different child from ds1, so i don't know yet what will work. but i definitely think that nothing good can come from spanking a baby. sorry to disagree with you, but that's my opinion


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

You know, putting a child in traction will also stop them from misbehaving. I do NOT consider what you did to be that bad, but just wanted to point out that the goal of discipline (guidance) is NOT simply to get a child to do what you want, or don't do what you don't want. It is to help them find the inner ability to control their own actions.

Because *that* is the goal, you cannot expect a 13 month old baby to be disciplined. They CANNOT control their inner motivations.

Perhaps you could bring up very specific situations and we could help you brainstorm responses more in line with what you believe.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Why not give her something she can throw on the floor.

We have cloth balls that are fun to throw. Gravity is such a fun thing at that age. When my kids are doing something inappropriate, I try to find a way that they can do the behavior in an appropriate way (where applicable).

Throwing, give them something they can throw.

My son has a fascination with knives, i think he can smell them. We have some plastic play knives to give him when he goes for a real one.

They are learning through play at this age. Thwarting that play is counterproductive to thier development. My son is a month older than your dd and he still does not understand most verbal commands. He is just not ready, I have to redirect him and get physically involved to stop behavior. Spanking would just break that trust and teach that it is OK to hit.

Hands are for helping, not for hitting.


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## mommybritt (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *byfaith*
I was up to my eyeballs with misbehavior...throwing things inthe floor after knowing she shouldn't..she has done it about 20 times literally.

Okay, I see this as the problem - especially the "knowing she shouldn't" part - it's just not possible at 13 months. And even when they do know what they should and shouldn't do, it takes years before they have the impulse control to actually do it! Maybe have dh read about normal childhood development/behaviour?

In the situation you describe, without knowing the exact details, I would have either removed dd from the situation or removed whatever she was throwing.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

You might also benefit from getting a book on child development and age-appropriate behaviors.

The reason I say that is because what most people do not know is that when a child repeatedly throws something on the floor (and they all do it), it is the beginning of language development. They are first beginning to grasp the concept that when they do something, mommy then does something (i.e., retrieves the object). They are beginning to see that they are separate people from mommy and then can impact the world. If this stage is thwarted, so is language development. It is not being done to misbehave, it is being done to learn.

Knowing things like that always helped me get through the frustrating times.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Sometimes you have to put yourself in a time-out instead of your child. I have spanked too, and although it worked for the moment, I felt a lot of guilt and dd's self esteem got worse. It was one of those moments I am not proud of. Abi was 3.5 at the time, not 13 mos.

I am reading Playful Parenting right now. It's a great book and helps teach parents how to end the power struggles in creative ways where everyone is happy. At 13 mos. your baby should respond really well to this method.

BTW my dd (12 mos.) came up to me and bit me on the leg twice, when I didn't pick her up right away because I was cooking. Babies love to get a reaction out of their parents. They love those kinds of surprise games. Nitara thought it was funny the first time when I jumped and yelled after she bit me.

Darshani


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

Quote:

At 13.5 months, you can't expect her to learn cause and effect.
Sure you can. Cause and effect are a funny thing.... That's why they do things like throw toys- wow, that's down there now! Pull the cat's tail- she makes a funny sound! Stand on the table, mommy comes running... etc..

Your child understands cause and effect (probably) to the extent that, i throw this and it causes a reaction in mommy. :LOL Attention for doing things whether good or bad is still attention. My DS climbs onto the end tables and thinks it is funny. As soon as he sees that i see him doing that, he says "bad bad" and laughs. Ugh. what have i done?

I really dont think that they understand at this age that if i do somethign and get a spanking for it, if i do it again, i will get a spanking again. That is an indirect correlation that i think they dont put together. I dont think they understand the relationship between what they just did and the spanking. :dk

Now the argument for spanking, is that they will eventually "get it" but that is also true for redirection and other non physical discipline. They will eventually "get it" all as long as whatever you do you are consistent in.

so sorry you are frustrated. Maybe we should call each other when we are at the end of our ropes.







I am serious!

This morning i felt like if i had to say "Jeremy,please put your feet on the floor" or "jeremy, you can climb on this, please get off of the table" i was going to flip out. I wanted to just ignore it instead of dealing with it ( I tend to run from conflict, can you tell? ) And at breakfast -he doesnt want any help being fed anymore- he would jerk the spoon away from me and fling oatmeal all over the place. I told him, you can have the spoon and bowl if you are going to eat it. etc etc So each time he threw food, i took it away. I was getting frustrated. so i just got him down. i figured if he was really hungry, he would eat. So, anyway...

do what you feel is right, but i think from the tone of your post that you really dont want to spank. You just dont know what else to do.








be consistent, it will pay off.









Amy


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Spanking occasionally in itself is not so terrible. I was quite reassured when reading a Brazelton book that in response to the question, "is it ever ok to hit?" he said, "Probably not, but we all do it now and then." Not because I spanked, I didn't, but because it seems such a charged, all-or-nothing topic that when one resorts to it or loses one's temper really crippling guilt can follow, which doesn't help anything. You don't need to fear you have irreparably damaged your child by one spanking.

However, it seems to me your child is far too young for that kind of discipline at all, let alone spanking. Under-threes are still in so little control of themselves, you really just need to remove them from the situation you don't like. They simply aren't capable of obeying a verbal command to stop doing something, and shouldn't be punished at all, ever. That is still a baby.

You Are Your Child's First Teacher is a lovely book discussing those stages of development and how to handle them; Natural Childhood, edited by John Thomson, is also.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:

Maybe we should call each other when we are at the end of our ropes.







I am serious!
Now this is a good idea.

Does Mothering or MDC have a hotline for something like this? Wouldn't that be a great thing?


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I also must respectfully disagree that a child of this age can deliberately provoke a reaction in the parent. It is so unconscious at this stage. I would also refrain from making requests of a child so young, as in "please put that back," unless you yourself are physically assisting the endeavor. I also favor statements such as "time to put your coat on," and "we pet the cat gently." "Don't" and "No" statements are so ineffective with children at this young age. You are giving them an image of an activity or action and then asking them to understand that one word prefacing that image negates it. It's really quite complex.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
Spanking occasionally in itself is not so terrible. I was quite reassured when reading a Brazelton book that in response to the question, "is it ever ok to hit?" he said, "Probably not, but we all do it now and then."

I disagree with this. It is never ok to hit a child. Lets turn this around..."Hitting your wife occasionally in itself is not so terrible. I was quite reassured when reading a Brazelton book that in response to the question, "is it ever ok to hit?" he said, "Probably not, but we all do it now and then."

In that context, you can see that it is NOT Ok. Dr. Sears has something totally different to say about this. I believe that when we hit our children, we break a bond of trust. Hitting in anger is something we have to work on. I totally agree with mommy time outs. When I feel like I am about to misbehave, I remove myself from the situation (I take the cordless phone too) then I call my dh or a friend and vent. If the kids are standing at the door crying that is fine, it is better than having a jerk for a mom. I just say loudly htat i need some space. Ironically, my four year old does the same now. she will put herself in her room. We find this to work well at our house.

When you hit because you are out of control and very angry, then you should not be hitting in the first place even if you think it is a good idea to hit your kids. If you hit when you are not out of control, then you need to examine why you are hitting. It is a conscious decision at that point. A decision which needs some introspection.

Look at the long term with discipline. Remember, at some point in the adolescent years, we are going to have to rely on the foundation we create today in regards to our relationship with our children and the thier relationships with others. They learn how to deal with thier feeligns by the models we create.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

_Originally Posted by LizD
Spanking occasionally in itself is not so terrible. I was quite reassured when reading a Brazelton book that in response to the question, "is it ever ok to hit?" he said, "Probably not, but we all do it now and then."_

Dr. Brazelton is wrong. Not all of us do it now and then. As a matter of fact, many of us have never struck our children. It is against MDC policy to advocate spanking in any manner.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Spanking can at times bring immediate results. This is no secret. But from where are the results motivated? Is the child aware of why she should not do this, or is she afraid of being hit? Is the child *internalizing* why she should not do X, or learning not to get caught? Which is a better personality trait long-term do you think? What do you want for her in life- an adult who does good because they understand and WANT to do it, or an adult who does good because there is a risk of consequence?

Remember this: the innate part of your child that allowed her to continue to throw things on the floor after you repeatedly asked her not to, is the same innate part of her that taught her to get up and try walking after she fell for the 20th time. This is a normal biological part of her psyche to continue trying things.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
_Originally Posted by LizD
Spanking occasionally in itself is not so terrible. I was quite reassured when reading a Brazelton book that in response to the question, "is it ever ok to hit?" he said, "Probably not, but we all do it now and then."_

Dr. Brazelton is wrong. Not all of us do it now and then. As a matter of fact, many of us have never struck our children. It is against MDC policy to advocate spanking in any manner.











Hitting ANYBODY is never ok. Hitting is violence, and it is wrong. Sure, people mess up and do it sometimes. Most of us are products of this treatment, and undoing that is hard. If you do it however, you owe your child an apology IMO. I'm not saying you should beat yourself up, just not rationalize it.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

I don't know if this will help, but I have noticed that my 18m old son will deliberately do things he knows he should not (climb on things, throw things, etc.) when he doesn't feel I'm paying enough attention to him.

When he starts doing these things and redirection and gentle discipline don't work, I take him somewhere else for a change of scenery. For us, we have a playroom set up in the upstairs guest room and we make a big deal out of going up there so it's a treat for him.

Saying, "Michael, why don't we go upstairs?" immediately changes his focus and he gets very excited, and it teaches me that I should be changing my focus, too. Even little kids get bored and when they're still young I don't think they know a reasonable way to deal with it. My son gets hyper and does naughty things to evoke a response from me. The response I give him is that it's not okay to do those things, but then I change my own behavior and pay more attention to him.

I hope that's helpful.

- Jen


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## MilkOnDemand (Jan 7, 2005)

I admit to having spanked my children in the past, but I felt so guilty afterwards and their little eyes were filled with pain - not the physical kind, but the "you hurt my spirit and trust" kind. When I really looked, I realized that spanking was absolutely the wrong answer. It would break my heart if my husband were to hit me because I forgot to write down a bank transaction, or whatever - how must my children feel if I hit them for something I've told them not to do?

13.5 months is too young to even consider *punishment* - redirection, removal of offending toy, removal from situation - YES!, but not punishment. When my children did things at that age that really seemed defiant, I had to remind myself that they are exploring the world around them, but it is my job to help teach boundaries.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkOnDemand*
13.5 months is too young to even consider *punishment* - redirection, removal of offending toy, removal from situation - YES!, but not punishment. When my children did things at that age that really seemed defiant, I had to remind myself that they are exploring the world around them, but it is my job to help teach boundaries.











My daughter is 12.5 months right now and this can be a difficult time. She is really starting to want to do things independently and throwing major tantrums when she can't. There are _always_ other options aside from spanking. Remove *yourself* from the situation if you need to.







I can still remember the one and only time I was slapped by my mom and it stirs up major feelings of betrayal.

Don't beat yourself up though, we all make mistakes.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

The *point* is that it's not ok. But since we all occasionally do things that aren't ok, doing something wrong once or twice is not the end of the world. I think Brazelton makes that clear when he responds that it isn't ok to hit your children! Mentioning this or quoting a source does not equal advocating hitting; Mothering published a letter I once wrote about how some of us never hit for any reason. Maybe only those who have spanked once or twice can realize it doesn't undo years of attachment parenting.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

LizD, I agree that she shouldn't beat herself up and berate herself, but should move on from here. What is done is done.

I think people are just worried because the OP seems to have found contentment in her choice to do so... and your post (though obviously unintentionally) seemed to say it isn't a big deal. At least I read it that way.


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## terrarose (Dec 2, 2004)

Would it help if you were looking at your dc as a baby still and not a child? It might help you to have more realistic expectations for that age. Sorry, but your dc "job" right now is getting into eerything and exploring everything.

I have spanked in the past. It was very infrequent and ONLY in anger. I beleive spanking is very wrong but when I wasn't careful to take care of myself I would do it. It was always a really clear signal that I was overwhelmed. Now I have gotten much better at balnce and setting personal boundaries. Oh and mommy time outs, when necessary, I acknowledge my feelings now and avoid getting to that point. The reason I'm sharing this is that I think the whole spanking not in anger thing is maybe a way of saying it's OK. To me, if you're not angry, if your completely rational, surely another solution can be thought of!!!

Maybe some baby proofing is in order so your dc can be free to explore and you can be comfortable with it.

Sorry this is so rambling. All the best to you.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Check out the book The Happiest Toddler on the Block. It has an amusing description of what a child your child's age is like developmentally, which might help you figure out a more appropriate style of discipline (avoidance, acknowledgement and, yes, distraction). Your kid most likely doesn't know the rules well enough yet to willfully break them.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Some of you might know that the Supreme Court in Canada last year or so stated that use of force by a parent on a child under 2 can never be 'reasonable.' Apparently this was because every single expert on both sides of the spanking issue that the court heard from agreed that under-2's are incapable of making any connection between a 'punishment' and their own behaviour such that they could be said to have 'learned' from the event.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I guess I'm in the minority because I think that this is a very big deal. Simply "moving on" isn't going to keep it from happening again, and neither is accepting that "we all do it now and then". I'll never give a shred of credibility to anything I ever hear from Brazelton again.

In my eyes, striking a child is no different from striking an adult. In fact, I think it is far worse. Would we tell a person who has hit their adult partner to just move on? I think that you need to do a lot of thinking about why you did this and what you can do to protect your child from further violence in the home. Spanking is an act of violence, period. If someone else hit your child, you'd call the police. When you hit your own child it is worse because she trusts you. I think that spanking, even once, does a lot more harm that most people will admit. If you think she's old enough to understand that you hit her because she was throwing things, do you not think she's old enough to understand that you hurt her?

Spanking is not a discipline tool. It is an act of violence by an adult perpetrated on a child. If I threw something and someone hit me, I'd stop, too. That doesn't mean that your daughter understands that what she was doing was wrong or why she was being hit. Do some research. Children who are spanked are more defiant and more likely to have trouble in school than children who are not. Spanking does not "work".

http://www.nospank.net/toc.htm

This website has a lot of resources to help you understand why hitting children is wrong and things you can do instead of resorting to violence with your child.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*









Hitting ANYBODY is never ok. Hitting is violence, and it is wrong. Sure, people mess up and do it sometimes. Most of us are products of this treatment, and undoing that is hard. If you do it however, you owe your child an apology IMO. I'm not saying you should beat yourself up, just not rationalize it.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

A really great book that helped both my dh and me was *The Truth Shall Set You Free* by ... it's on the NoSpank website. I can't remember her name. Anyway, after reading this book and thinking so hard about all the whys and urges in spanking, it's like you kind of work through it. What I mean is that after reading it, neither of us can even imagine ever being capable of spanking again - it's not about the child. It's about the adult.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Why is it that we should "not beat ourselves up over it" only when it is a child? In any other situation, it is a crime punishable by law. When it is a child, it's like it just a little oopsie! I made a mistake, no big deal, I just won't do it again.

I think the reason that it happens more than once for most people is because they don't agonize over what happened and what could be done differently next time. I can't believe that even here so many people are saying that it wasn't that bad and that the only thing to be done is focus on next time. You can't focus on next time without going over what happened the last time, and that includes feeling remorse and NOT saying that it "worked".


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Mothra, I don't think we're all that far off- just have different terminology and process. I personally don't believe in agonizing over anything once it is over and done with. You apologize to the child and learn and grow and move on. You can't spend your life dishing out guilt to yourself or others. What "is"-"is". And no, I wouldn't feel any differently if I messed up and hit an adult- it isn't about it being a child, it is about realizing that we're human and make mistakes.

Guilt is a negative focus on yourself, and for a situation that exists it is a useless emotion (IMO!). The only step you can take is forward, which means making peace and pulling out the life lessons you can.

I can't imagine ANYONE who thinks spanking is wrong wouldn't reflect on it and grow from it... but beating yourself up and dishing out guilt just breeds negative, hopeless emotions instead of empowering and intellectual thought that can lead to change.

Again, just my opinion.

And the theory that this is what causes repeat offenses... I haven't ever hit my kids. But i have made mistakes and learned from them without guilting myself.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

And for the record, I think it is FAR worse to hit a child than an adult. At least my DH can defend himself. A child can not.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Is that what you would say to a man who just hit his wife?

The fact is that violence against children in this country is acceptable. When I read on here that someone has hit their child, it leaves me shaking. I almost can't deal with it.

I use strong words because I feel strongly about this.

Forgetting to write a check in your register is a mistake. Leaving your cell phone on the car and driving off is a mistake. Hitting a child is not a mistake-- it is an act of violence. I feel that strongly about it. I think it calls for a bit more action than simply reflecting on it the way one would if they hadn't studied hard enough for a test or something.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm a product of abuse, extreme- hospitalized, in and out of foster care abuse. I've managed to never hit my children and repeat the cycle of abuse. Guilt isn't the only way to break the cycle, obviously.

Guilt (to me) is nothing more than a self indulging, self centered negative emotion that doesn't accomplish anything. Just because I don't agree with you on how guilty you should feel, does not mean I care less about children's rights.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BooBerryParker*









My daughter is 12.5 months right now and this can be a difficult time. She is really starting to want to do things independently and throwing major tantrums when she can't. There are _always_ other options aside from spanking. Remove *yourself* from the situation if you need to.







I can still remember the one and only time I was slapped by my mom and it stirs up major feelings of betrayal.

Don't beat yourself up though, we all make mistakes.

My dd is 12.5 mo old too and it *is* frustrating. I think it is way too young to spank and definitely brings up trust issues. I am sure it *worked* but think about why it worked. I hope you can find some good alternatives that work for you.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

To the OP:
When you say it "worked" does that mean it worked to stop the behavior you disliked, or it "worked" to teach your child values upheld by your family -- *are you demonstrating and promoting lifelong values about cooperation and appropriate behavior that you hope to instill with your parenting?* Sometimes we have to think about parenting for the long haul and not for immediate "results."

*To Everyone:* In this forum we do not permit discussion of the "merits" of spanking. I will allow this thread to continue as long as the focus remains on *alternatives* to spanking. It is the philosophy of Mothering that spanking is never ok.

Quote:

Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
Spanking can at times bring immediate results. This is no secret. But from where are the results motivated? Is the child aware of why she should not do this, or is she afraid of being hit? Is the child *internalizing* why she should not do X, or learning not to get caught? Which is a better personality trait long-term do you think? What do you want for her in life- an adult who does good because they understand and WANT to do it, or an adult who does good because there is a risk of consequence?



Quote:

Hitting ANYBODY is never ok. Hitting is violence, and it is wrong. Sure, people mess up and do it sometimes. Most of us are products of this treatment, and undoing that is hard. If you do it however, you owe your child an apology IMO. I'm not saying you should beat yourself up, just not rationalize it.
Just quoting myself









As you can see by my response on the first page reflection and thought is definitely part of my recommendation









Quote:

Is that what you would say to a man who just hit his wife?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think the spirit of LizD's post was that the mother should not let the guilt she feels over spanking paralyze her from continuing her growth as a parent. While I have never spanked my child, I once grabbed her arm a bit too hard...the look she gave me broke my heart. I was so miserable over it. I had to eventually let it go. as a one time thing it did not do permanent damage to my relationship with her. not to mention, she is old enough to understand when I apologized to her, that this was wrong of me. it was totally wrong, as is spanking. I don't see anybody here advocating it.

for the OP - next time your DH says "see, that spanking worked!" tell him that you can train a sea slug in a similar manner (seriously, you can get them to choose a certain-colour pathway by zapping them when they make the "wrong" choice). is that the kind of interaction he considers discipline? does he think appealing to the primitive self-preservation part of the brain is how we raise thoughtful, reasoning, intelligent, social humans? i think not. ;-)


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I feel bad for the OP...firstly let me say I DO NOT advocate hitting in ANY situation and I feel similarly to many posters about it being an act of violence and NOT AT ALL an appropriate response.

That said, I have to be "devil's" advocate for a second and say that I feel like a lot of mamas are really jumping on this person who is clearly asking for help. I realize that she may not seem as remorseful as some of you think she should, or she may not be wording things in the way we would like her to, but I really think we should get the point of her whole post, which was basically:

I hit my child, I feel bad, I don't want to do it again, please help me.

I don't think she was excusing her behavior in using Dr. Brazelton's quote, I think she was just reassuring herself that she was human and not the abusive monster mom from Hell...know what I mean?

Maybe I can't talk, because I am still pregnant and I haven't been in the "trenches" so to speak...of course I am ADAMANTLY against spanking and I hope and pray and will do everything in my power never to spank, and God willing it will work and I will never have a moment of weakness stemming from 18+ years of being brainwashed by my spanking parents, society, even now, by my mom, my MIL etc... and spank, but if I ever do, and reach out for help, I would hope people would help me instead of making me feel like a criminal who has forever damaged and abused my child for life...

I realize this is a VERY sensitive subject for many people, and I can completely understand people getting upset and even understand some people seeing the poster justifying her actions and not feeling remorseful enough. Believe me, when I see someone spank their child in public it takes all my power not to fly over and pummel them in the face--I have made comments....it gets me SOOOOOOOOO upset and angry....

...but I feel her heart was in the right place asking for help, and I feel maybe when she said "it worked"...it wasn't as if she was saying she was proud of it, I think the way I percieved it was like when someone takes drugs after years of people telling them drugs are harmful and being like, "oh sh*t, that felt good" (not saying spanking felt good)....as in, she was scared that since it seemed to "work" the first time, she might be tempted to do it again.

As I said, I am not excusing her actions AT ALL, and I agree with a lot of what is being said, I just feel like this person is obviously asking for help and it is up to us to give it to her---I wish I could offer more help but as I said, I am not in the "trenches" of parenthood yet, so I would kind of be talking out of my butt a little...

I am sorry if I seem to be lecturing, it is not my intent at all, I just feel like some people ask for help in different ways and that is what she is clearly doing.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

As the mother of a child your dd's age, I know how frustrating the little uncivilized hooligans can be. As a child who was spanked, I know that it is soul crushing.

Please, please, do not spank your baby girl. Even if it stops her throwing the whatever. This is unimportant compared to the issue of what she is learning about her worth, and about how much she can trust her parents to treat her with love and compassion.

I agree with other mamas' suggestions about reading books on child development. I also really like the book "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be" because it helped me see the child's side, and gives practical solutions for addressing stuff as it comes up.

Good luck finding a gentle, loving solution mama.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Now the argument for spanking, is that they will eventually "get it" but that is also true for redirection and other non physical discipline. They will eventually "get it" all as long as whatever you do you are consistent in.

Wonderful point!!!

DP's co-worker often talks about how the "only" way to get a kid to do ___blank____ is to spank/hit their hand/etc... I mean, his three year old doesn't climb in the dishwasher anymore, throw his food, etc.... Well, neither does ours!!!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Before I became a parent I thought I might occasionally spank. But the closest thing I've done was flick my dd's cheeck once when she bit me hard and wouldn't let go (that was a reflex, though.)

I now sincerely believe that it's wrong to hit another person. I especially think it's wrong for the strong and powerful to hit the weak and vulnerable.

As someone pointed out, it's not OK to every hit your wife. I would extend that to include your nanny, your housekeeper, random poor people who look at you sideways. Once upon a time it was expected that the powerless must obey and submit to the powerful, and that the powerful should do whatever it took to keep their charges in line.

Nowadays, not so much....

The idea that children should be obedient is born of that old dynamic.

I find it impossible to beleive that a grown person is not able to stop a child weighing less than 40 pounds from doing whatever they are doing without resorting to hitting. The reason people hit is not to get a child to stop or start a behavior, but to make that child obey and submit.

So that's the thing potential spanker must to consider- is their goal to teach their children how to live life, or it their goal to teach children to be submissive and obedient?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It isn't about guilt. It is about understanding how serious hitting a child is.

Again, these responses would be very different if the "I spanked (read: hit)..." had been followed by "my wife" or "my maid" or "my neighbor".

It baffles me to see how people react to this. I think if there were less tolerance of hitting children it would stop. My neighbor has no problem yelling into the backyard, "Come here right now or I'll spank you!" to her 6yo. I'm all for supporting someone who needs help, but I wish that it was taken more seriously instead of being treated like any other parenting mistake, mistakes that are accidental rather than intentionally inflicting pain on a helpless baby.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
It baffles me to see how people react to this. I think if there were less tolerance of hitting children it would stop. My neighbor has no problem yelling into the backyard, "Come here right now or I'll spank you!" to her 6yo. I'm all for supporting someone who needs help, but I wish that it was taken more seriously instead of being treated like any other parenting mistake, mistakes that are accidental rather than intentionally inflicting pain on a helpless baby.

I think it would be cool if some kind of skit/public awarness group did some kind of awareness thing about spanking. (Kinda like those anti-smoking adds on TV.)

It would be very cool if a group staged a scene in a grocery store where a mom yelled at, then pretended to spank her child, then a man came along, got angry at her and pretended to beat her, then another man (maybe a larger man, or police afficer) came along and started beating him. Of course a crowd would form, wondering what was going on, as this had moved from a normal, but embarrasing situation, to something obviously staged. When the skit was over, the group would say "It's NEVER OK to hit people."

Ahhhh, i can dream....


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think it would be cool if some kind of skit/public awarness group did some kind of awareness thing about spanking. (Kinda like those anti-smoking adds on TV.)

It would be very cool if a group staged a scene in a grocery store where a mom yelled at, then pretended to spank her child, then a man came along, got angry at her and pretended to beat her, then another man (maybe a larger man, or police afficer) came along and started beating him. Of course a crowd would form, wondering what was going on, as this had moved from a normal, but embarrasing situation, to something obviously staged. When the skit was over, the group would say "It's NEVER OK to hit people."

Ahhhh, i can dream....

I agree....but I think the ad should start with an animal. There are very solid links between animal hitting and hitting people - people of all ages.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

I agree with Mothra on this.

I'd like to ask the OP what you mean by it worked? I'm afraid of the tone of your post. You believe that since you spanked her and she stopped "misbehaving" (more on this in a minute), then it worked because she stopped the behavior. That may have stopped her behavior at the moment, but to say that it worked scares me. Are you saying that since she stopped, therefore it worked, therefore you'd do it again? If that is what you're saying, please reconsider this. Please.

And on the "misbehavior" issue. I have two 16 month olds and they are simply not capable of misbehaving at this time. They often do things that I tell them not to do, and keep doing it (the latest thing is climbing on the back of the recliner trying to tip it over, very dangerous), but they're not misbehaving. They think it's funny that mommy tells them to stop and tries to remove them from the chair and distract them. It's a bit hoot. But developmentally, they're just not capable of misbehaving yet.

Your daughter is still a *baby*. She's just exploring her world. Misbehaving is *your* interpretation. Please be gentle with her. It's hard to remain patient at all times, I know, but it's so worth it in the end.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Maybe I'm just an eternal optimist but I really believe that the OP wrote this post because she was looking for ideas and support. I do not get at all that she is advocating for spanking even though she used the words "it worked". She is asking "what else can I do?"

Let's practice what we preach here - if our children make mistakes does it do any good to make them feel terrible or do we try to empathize and give them alternatives? (not comparing the OP to a child!)

I don't see how anyone here has been tolerant of spanking. We are just trying to steer this mama in the right direction so that she isn't afraid to come and post when she needs help. Otherwise we run the risk of alienating her and not giving her an alternative.

Byfaith, I hope you got some ideas that will help you and I hope you'll keep coming back to learn more about gentle discipline.

Edited to add: Mothra, I just want you to know that even though I may not agree with you about the delivery of the message, I completely respect and admire your passion on this subject.


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## byfaith (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks for all f your replies. I guess I should change my signature b/ dd is almost 17 months now. But still I know that I do not need to spank her. I am just really confused at all the different methods. s redirection "the best"? f so, what do I say to her? Do I still tell her NO?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Here's what I would do:

Brush up on Child Development ~ age appropriate expectations for you child and explanations for behavior.

This is probably the biggest 'tool' I have. Knowing *why* your child is doing something, what she is trying to learn and communicate, understanding the possibility of stress or illness as a cause, realizing how common (or not) the behavior is and etc. are all really, really helpful to knowing the "best" discipline choice.

Also, as some people have so appropriately mentioned, the picture of your greater goals and values is really a good to keep in the front of your mind. Develop 'principals' and values that guide your discipline strategies.

With your child throwing something on the floor ~ I probably would have just removed the thing or given her something she could have done that with. The difference with me is that I would never have let her do something or 'misbehave' 20 times. If that ever happens with us ~ it's a power struggle and no one wins. So, after the 1st time, I would say that I'm not going to let her throw whatever, offer some alternatives and, if that was unacceptable to her and caused a fit, I would have just talked to her and helped her deal with the disappointment.

Other ideas:

Baby/Child proof your home

Avoid power struggles

Offer acceptable alternatives/Compromises/Common Preferences

Redirect

Distract

Exploit natural or logical consequences. You don't have to exploit them but you can by making them more evident. (exploit may be the wrong word)

Just don't allow the behavior and offer comfort for the disappointment

Recognize challenging situations and avoid them when possible and/or make an effort to find some ways to improve them

Plan down time and focus during challenging times of day


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Mothra, I'm just not sure why you're picking out the one sentence in my entire post that said she doesn't have to 'beat herself up, but should not rationalize it'. It was clear from my post that I was giving her a lot of questions and food for thought for reflection. I'm hardly advocating she just think "oh woopsie, oh well"

If you read a little about the Buddhist angle on guilt and maybe you'd understand where I am coming from on the guilt aspect. I believe it can lead to MORE violence, rather than less. I'm not saying violence is no big deal, I'm really not.

*If someone came a board that was obviously, specifically made to help people stop hitting other adults and they said "I hit so-and-so", then yes my advice would look similar. That is what you keep asking. And there is your answer.* For the record, my advice was:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
Spanking can at times bring immediate results. This is no secret. But from where are the results motivated? Is the child aware of why she should not do this, or is she afraid of being hit? Is the child *internalizing* why she should not do X, or learning not to get caught? Which is a better personality trait long-term do you think? What do you want for her in life- an adult who does good because they understand and WANT to do it, or an adult who does good because there is a risk of consequence?

Remember this: the innate part of your child that allowed her to continue to throw things on the floor after you repeatedly asked her not to, is the same innate part of her that taught her to get up and try walking after she fell for the 20th time. This is a normal biological part of her psyche to continue trying things.

Hitting ANYBODY is never ok. Hitting is violence, and it is wrong. Sure, people mess up and do it sometimes. Most of us are products of this treatment, and undoing that is hard. If you do it however, you owe your child an apology IMO. I'm not saying you should beat yourself up, just not rationalize it.

I personally believe the negative energy of beating yourself up can do *more harm* than good and lead to more feelings or helplessness and *MORE violence or violent inclinations*. Which is why I say someone should search out answers and explore their feelings and actions without berating themselves.

How does that equate to thinking that hitting children is less severe than hitting adults?

Now someone who hits without conscience would get a much harsher comment from me. But they are HERE on a GD board obviously to learn and grow and change.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *byfaith*
Thanks for all f your replies. I guess I should change my signature b/ dd is almost 17 months now. But still I know that I do not need to spank her. I am just really confused at all the different methods. s redirection "the best"? f so, what do I say to her? Do I still tell her NO?

Redirection never worked for my dd. What worked better was following up my "No, please don't do that" with physically showing her what to do. I would physically take her away from the dangerous situation or physically take her hand off the stove and say "hot!."

But in all honesty, kids that age don't have much self control, so i don't think they are able to learn very many do's and don'ts within the house. Like, they can learn that the stove is hot. But I don't think you can expect them not to touch the CD player, VCR, TV, dishwasher, fancy china, daddy's golf clubs, mommy's photo albums, cleaning supplies, etc. In these cases it's best to child proof. If something can't be removed, it's easiest of things can all be in one"off limits" area .

Small toddler are not great with verbal commands only. Now my dd is 2.5 and I'm shocked every time she says "Sure, mom I can do it!"


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

My dd is 18 months now and I can sympathize with needing some parenting "tools", especially since I was spanked.

ByFaith - redirection is really working for us. For example - dd always wants to sit on the dishwasher door while dh is loading it. After dh saying "dont sit there" a few times, I brought one of her little chairs in the kitchen saying "Dd can sit here". And kicking -







everything right now is "kick, kick, kick" - so we get out the soft balls - "balls are for kicking". The same for hitting -dd has a little piano and some pots and pans to bang on. So you dont really stop them from doing what they are doing (saying "no" is unproductive), you just help them do it in an acceptable way.

I also agree that if there needs to be a time out - its a mommy time out. Yesterday after a particularly difficult diaper changing episode ("kick, kick, kick" - all directed at mommy) I had to just put dd down (somewhere babyproofed of course) and catch my breath. So often I raise my voice out of sheer fustration at myself. Closing my eyes and taking a breath help me be the mama I want to be.

One other toddler trick - purely by accidnet I discovered that dd loves to do the "wheels on the bus" motions. She will stop _anything_ she is doing and start rolling her arms when I start singing that song. So when she hikes her little leg up on the coffee table its "the wheels on the bus go ...."









Put tools in your parenting bag to pull out instead of spanking. The mamas here are wonderfull for helping out with ideas for doing this. Know that you have support for your choice to not spank your child ever again.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

ByFaith, I've found that, as the others have said, understanding where your child is developmentally helps TREMENDOUSLY. It goes a long way to dissipate any anger when you realize that your (very young) toddler is not acting with any malice or intent, that they're not trying to "be bad" or deliberately disobey you...that they're only acting in a perfectly normal way within the limits of their cognitive development. I'd like to recommend Dr. Sears' "The Discipline Book" as a great place to start. It explains a lot about their behavior (and what our kids are capable of understanding at certain ages) and it really explains how to put "gentle discipline" into action - how to put the theory into everyday practice. It's a interesting and easy read and well worth while.


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## leavesarebrown (Apr 22, 2003)

I also think many posters have been pretty hard on Byfaith. I'm glad she posted and wish more parents would ask for help to parent against the grain of society and of our own impulses.

I went into parenting committed to not spanking (or yelling) because of the effect of spanking and other abuse in my own family of origin (my family also had court intervention as a result of the level of abuse). In spite of my commitment to not spank, I've spanked each of my children twice (now 5 and 2)--in life threatening situations (running into the street, reaching for an outlet, drinking medicine...) situations in which some childrearing "experts" condone spankings. I, however, agree with most posters here that spankings even in these extreme situations are not only unproductive but also destructive. I have apologized to my kids for these spankings, and the rifts have been mended, and we have moved on. I do not minimize the damage. But "when we know better, we do better." I appreciate when friends provide tools, suggestions, and empathy for the very difficult task of parenting (especially without good role models of our own), rather than criticism.

Change of venue works well for my (barely) 2 yr old. Verbal instructions are seldom sufficient--especially if she's enjoying whatever she's doing that I would prefer she not do. I have to get down on her level and get involved with her in some way that draws her into another activity. She loves taking things apart, throwing things around, generally making messes. So do I.  Sometimes changing my expectations helps. Sometimes taking a time out myself helps. Sometimes finding a reasonable substitute activity (as mentioned above) is best.

I'll check out the website posted above. It looks like a good one!


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

I'd like to emphasize that reading books about how to gently discipline is great, but if you're a parent who becomes easily frustrated or angry, you have to deal with that emotion, too, and those books don't do that. I, unfortunately, have a temper and I get frustrated. I'm ashamed that I spanked my ds1 exactly 2 times (very lightly - I could barely do it; nonetheless, wrong). However, I found that I was restraining myself from spanking. I still felt compelled, but restrained. I needed to figure out more than dealing with issues with my son; I needed to also work on why I have these issues. I cannot emphasize enough how much the book "The Truth Will Set You Free" helped. Though my son has behaved in ways that some would consider spank-worthy, I have not once felt compelled to anymore. I can't even imagine it. I say all this b/c it is sometimes not enough to gently redirect, etc. We really must also deal with ourselves. I am fortunate that my dh agrees with me. We read the book aloud to each other and separately and both worked on our issue. If either one of us even looked like we were thinking about spanking, now, we'd both be take it as an affront to each other in addition to our child. It would personally hurt/wound each of us in the family to physically *hit* our beloved creation.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loftmama*
I'd like to emphasize that reading books about how to gently discipline is great, but if you're a parent who becomes easily frustrated or angry, you have to deal with that emotion, too, and those books don't do that. I, unfortunately, have a temper and I get frustrated. I'm ashamed that I spanked my ds1 exactly 2 times (very lightly - I could barely do it; nonetheless, wrong). However, I found that I was restraining myself from spanking. I still felt compelled, but restrained. I needed to figure out more than dealing with issues with my son; I needed to also work on why I have these issues. I cannot emphasize enough how much the book "The Truth Will Set You Free" helped. Though my son has behaved in ways that some would consider spank-worthy, I have not once felt compelled to anymore. I can't even imagine it. I say all this b/c it is sometimes not enough to gently redirect, etc. We really must also deal with ourselves. I am fortunate that my dh agrees with me. We read the book aloud to each other and separately and both worked on our issue. If either one of us even looked like we were thinking about spanking, now, we'd both be take it as an affront to each other in addition to our child. It would personally hurt/wound each of us in the family to physically *hit* our beloved creation.

I am very interested in finding out more about the book, as have been feeling very frustrated lately, and irritable (dont think trying to lose weight is helping either) and can totally understand the OP and hope she is reading these replies and they are helpful. I know I have to change *my* attitude as it is not enough to understand they are small Neanderthals and sometimes a different perspective helps more than anything. I have not spanked or hit yet but can see how easily it can happen, even if not in anger just as a short term solution.

Not trying to hijack the thread here but really hope you are still reading and realize you are not alone here.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

I have to add too that I think teaching your baby/toddler sign language helps and not too late at 17 mo because they can communicate more easily and am working on that with my own DD. Even at her age she can point and sign things she cannot say and helping a lot so maybe off the wall but worth looking into. We say "not for Celeste" and give her something that is and actually she is really good about not touching certain things now. Rather than no no no no no no no....


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Okay, I just did a search on the nospank website. "The Truth Will Set You Free" is by Alice ******.

Quote:

In this book Alice ****** provides an accessible guide to understanding and breaking the centuries old 'cycle of violence'. In addition, she helps provide insight into how acknowledging our childhood experiences can help in developing a 'cycle of nurturing' that can lead us as individuals and a culture in more authentic, engaged and creative directions.
She's also written one I have yet to read titled "For Your Own Good."


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loftmama*
Okay, I just did a search on the nospank website. "The Truth Will Set You Free" is by Alice ******.

She's also written one I have yet to read titled "For Your Own Good."

Thanks! I ordered both for $2 each on Amazon.com (and had a $10 gift certificate waiting to be used!) if anyone else is interested they had a lot at that price. Looks very helpful.


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## leavesarebrown (Apr 22, 2003)

I read an anger management book, which was really helpful to me. One of the things it said that struck me as really right on is that irritability is NEVER justified, because by definition, it is being angry at something small or insignificant/ not worthy of anger.

The nospank website is really powerful. I never thought about the possibility of spanking as sexual in nature because of the bottom being errogenous. If someone had just posted that here, I would have said that was completely ridiculous. But reading all those articles, and seeing all the news about pedophiles and pornography including spanking!!!!!!!







I am now better understanding some of the very strongly worded posts earlier on the thread.


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Byfaith,
First, to offer you some suggestions...
I have found that telling my child what he can do always works better than telling him what he can't do. Instead of "No, don't throw that," I take what he can't throw and immediately hand him a soft block and say "Here, throw this." Etc. I can't say that I never say No to him, but I am always more successful if I figure out a way to say yes. I always examine my motives before I prohibit an activity. Why couldn't she dump stuff out? Because you didn't want to clean it up? The job of mama includes cleaning lots of messes!and As far as dumping things out is concerned, at that age it just seems to be a really strong need...the job of a toddler is to explore and learn and yes, make lots of messes. To this day (ds is 3) I still wash everything from my kitchen utensil drawer everyday because mine loves to empty and dump it out. It is an inconvenient, but oh well. Even when he, say, pulled the box of cat food out and dumped it on the floor, it was really not a big deal. $2 and 5 minutes is no reason to hurt my child by yelling or overreacting. I just cleaned it up and told myself I need to be more on top of him or be offering him more interesting things to do (this incident happened when I was talking on the phone and not paying enough attention...my fault, not his). Toddlers dump stuff out; the easiest thing is to just accept it and joyfully clean up behind them (or live joyfully in a mess!)
The sling is also invaluable, and when ds was really "out of control" I would put him in the sling and let him hang out w me. Or put down what I was doing and get on the floor w him and play...I did and still do find that when I see ds running around wild it is because he needs some focused attention.
My very verbal child told me this himself. He was beating the glass door with something; I was exasperated and I said aloud "what should mama do to get you to stop banging stuff on the glass door?" and he said "HOLD ME."
Okay, and then I would like to make some general comments on spanking. I was spanked heavily as a child and all the way until I turned 18. My parents would tell you (and still try to tell me) that spanking works. And I WAS well-behaved because I feared the belt. HOWEVER, I learned all this extrinsic motivation and never learned a thing about self control. So when I turned 18 and could no longer be spanked, I went WILD. I used all kinds of drugs, had sex with lots and lots of people and there were many, many other less extreme examples of the fact that I had no self control. While I stopped sleeping around and doing drugs, I still have a lot of trouble with issues of self control. I feel I have had a really hard time learning to be a successful adult and really do think it had a lot to do with how extremely I was controlled by my parents.
And on to spanking my own child. I won't do it. And the reason I know I won't is because I have sworn to myself that I never will. I know that I easily could have EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IT IS WRONG if I hadn't committed harder to nonviolence than I have ever committed to anything. Because I have felt like it. I am ashamed to admit it, but I guess maybe because of my upbringing it is something that I cannot help. I have felt exasperated and wanted to hit him. And in anger it would have been very easy to do if I hadn't promised myself that I never ever would hurt him in that way.
Yes, my mom is probably right that I could stop certain "behaviors" by spanking, but my goal is not a well behaved child, but rather a well adjusted adult.
Kids will be kids. They will sometimes do things that we wish they wouldn't. But the thing is, at this age, we are right there to prohibit them from getting hurt or hurting someone else. I want to make certain my child learns now that I love him and that I do respect his autonomy so that when he is older and I am not always there he will trust and accept my opinions and advice and guidance as being in his best interest. I know I learned from my parents that they cared more about obedience and appearances than my well-being and so I did not accept their advice and opinions (and still do not).
(Obedience for obedience's sake is dangerous, anyway. Someone posted elsewhere about a fire drill in a school where a teacher told some kids to not go outside and to instead go in the basement. The students followed his direction. If there had been a real fire those kids could have all been killed by their obedience).
Good luck in your journey, and kudos to you for realizing that spanking is not the answer.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

I think all of my suggestions have been previously posted, but in case my wording helps you in some way this is what I would say (and do) in the situation you described:

_"Candlesticks are not for throwing, they are for setting on the table gently (demonstrate with a similiar object to the one dd is holding, encourage her to do it to). Beanbags are for throwing (demostrate)."_ Then have fun throwing bean bags together.

if that doesn't work and you have to take the object away from her, _take her outside for a minute_ while you calm her. Outdoors is always distracting and the situation will usually be forgotten.

Please don't believe that spanking "works." In addition to all the wisdom already posted, I want to *add* that if you spank for this kind of _very minor_ behavior problem you might find yourself having to escalate the punishment when you need to address more serious behavior issues. If she gets used to getting hit for playing with inappropriate objects, what will you have to do to get her attention when she is doing something dangerous?


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Millie - great post. Thanks for sharing and reminding those of us who were spanked about the extrinsic control issues we have as adults.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Byfaith, here are some suggestions that worked for me and my family. Sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been mentioned by others.

- Definitely read up on what is "normal" behavior at your child's age. What you see as misbehavior might really be positive indicators of her greater understanding of the world!

- Make her environment as safe and encouraging as possible. Try to remove from her reach things that will turn into a problem so that she can explore most rooms in your house without having to constantly hear the word "no."

- Try the "this is not for _____ but this is for ________" approach, either by giving her something different to bang/throw/chew, or by showing her the right way to use the object she does have. So you can say, "plates are not for throwing (and gently remove the plate from her hand and hand her a soft ball), but you can throw this ball into this bucket." Or you can say, "books are not for throwing, they are for reading. Let's read together!"

- Try to focus on teaching your daughter what she CAN do rather than what she can't do. That goes along with the last thing I wrote.

- Understand that at this age she loves getting reactions from you, ANY kind of reaction. It's part of her growing relationship with you and with others. She really doesn't understand right from wrong or why the wrong things are a problem. You can start teaching her, though, by using words and facial expressions - so you can make a sad face if she pulls the cat's tail, and say, "Ouch, that hurts the kitty! We pet the kitty gently, like this (and smile)." Just an example!

Here are some books I'd recommend:

The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears
Becoming the Parent You Want to Be by Laura Davis and Janis Keyser
Your One-Year-Old (or Your Two-Year-Old, and so on - there's one for each age) by Ames and Ilg - a little outdated, but very on target when it comes to describing how children behave at different ages and what's normal.

Good luck!

Oh, and don't let your dh get away with the "see, it worked" argument. Think of the horrible things people could do to their children (or to anyone) if that argument was valid.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

"Please don't believe that spanking "works." In addition to all the wisdom already posted, I want to add that if you spank for this kind of very minor behavior problem you might find yourself having to escalate the punishment when you need to address more serious behavior issues. If she gets used to getting hit for playing with inappropriate objects, what will you have to do to get her attention when she is doing something dangerous?"

This is an excellent and often-overlooked point. I always saved "NO" for the street, the stove, etc. If I had said it so often around the house how would my toddler have known the difference?

The child in the OP is really too young to be doing anything "wrong," IMO. That's the age at which you just still deal with whatever havoc they wreak upon your home and property.







They can't be expected to control themselves like that; that takes a level of judgement they simply don't have.

I think sometimes people underestimate just how much attention a toddler needs. It's more difficult than a baby in sling or playpen. You need to play with your toddler, involve them in cooking, cleaning, your daily routine, talk with them, do little projects with them, take them outside a intervals. Playing on their own is still a small part of their day, and many small children get into "trouble" because they really shouldn't be unsupervised at that level in the first place.

When I said spanking wasn't the end of the world I meant on occasion, and that someone shouldn't get too upset about a lapse or one-time desperate measure. And many people feel like hitting their children even when they don't do it- my parents never, ever hit me, spanked me, or anything like that, and I still get annoyed enough to want to hit sometimes. There's out-of-proportion anger and there's feeling like a mother cat who swats her kittens.







Since we aren't cats, we have to take deep breaths and transcend.

Since plenty of people as adults *do* enjoy spanking in a fetish/sexual context I would shrink from spanking my children anyway, even if I believed in corporal punishment.

I find when I manage to be patient and respond rather than react, without getting angry, I actually feel better. That's the part that really works.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Byfaith,
Hey. It seems like you've already gotten a lot of good advice.
I would like to share how I dealt with the one time I spanked my son. He was then three. We had moved that day. He had not had any attention and our dinner was very unhealthy, and i was exhausted, so when he (understandably) began to act out I just hit him on the bottom. Although the spanking was not hard, the shock of being struck caused him to stop the misbehavior (it appeared to have "worked"). However, I knew it was wrong. I felt horrible but was able to turn it into a "teachable moment." I apologized to him, then prayed out loud for forgiveness, and explained to him that God did not give him to me to hit, but to love and protect. I told him, "Children are not for hitting." He still remembers that time and knows that I will never hit him again.
Your daughter is probably too young to understand these things, but she is probably also young enough that she will heal quickly and you can always adopt the mantra "Children are not for hitting" so that you won't do it again. And keep the big picture in mind: obedience/manageability is not the ultimate goal; character development is, and your example is the best teaching tool.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Great post everyone! I especially identified with Millie's post, as I was the same way---heavily spanked as a child etc, and when I got out of my parents *control* I went crazy...I have since grown, learned, matured etc *on my own*, but it was a painful road....I also to this day, I believe in part to my parents controlling me through heavy spanking, negative discipline, etc...that I as an adult CANNOT STAND even the PERCEPTION that someone is trying to control me --to an unhealthy degree (which has caused problems in relationships etc)...where maybe people who grew up in a healthier discipline situation wouldn't take offense or feel like that at all yk?

I also like to point out to people, someone touched on it with the fire drill situation, that children who are taught to blindly obey their parents are FAR more likely to blindly obey anyone else i.e., abducter, abuser, controlling souse/partner, drug dealer etc... and I don't want to raise my child, especially our daughter (I think girls are pushed more to be polite at all costs) to blindly obey anyone without question, even me or DH...

Of course my mom and other people don't get it, part of it is the generation gap, as my parents come from the "children are to be seen and not heard" era, but the other part of it, is that if people admit that you (i) might be right, than that is the same to them as admitting they may have been wrong---and well, we ALL know few people like to do that.

millie, I am always looking for simple one-liners to toss to the family etc in these types of conversations and I loved your quote:

Quote:

my goal is not a well behaved child, but rather a well adjusted adult.
Thanks!!!

I also completely agree with the limited "no" thing....I love the redirection technique "we don't hit people, that hurts...but you can hit this drum (hand them drum)....rather than just "no, no, no, no" all day and night because the other poster is right---when they ARE reaching for the stove or running towards the street, a stern (or terrified lol) "no!" stops them right in their tracks--then you can explain things later, when they are out of danger etc...

I think everyone is giving the OP some great ideas!!


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## Mindy70 (Nov 1, 2004)

Just wanted to add that at that age, they really don't have control over their impulses, even if they do know that something is forbidden. It is much more interesting and exciting to see what happens when they do it anyways. Your dd is learning what happens when she does something after mommy says no, not deliberately trying to disobey you and make you angry. Don't take it personally, don't see it as a control issue. It is all about learning at this age.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I also to this day, I believe in part to my parents controlling me through heavy spanking, negative discipline, etc...that I as an adult CANNOT STAND even the PERCEPTION that someone is trying to control me --to an unhealthy degree (which has caused problems in relationships etc)...where maybe people who grew up in a healthier discipline situation wouldn't take offense or feel like that at all yk?

Wow! Do I relate to this!! I've never heard someone describe me so well. Wouldn't my dh love to see this. I am so absolutely this way and I know exactly what it's due to.

I am so glad to read these responses. Even though I don't spank now, it helps to hear other's thoughts on this. I don't want my kids to have control issues like I did/do, so this is an added incentive to discipline gently and not through parental control.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think 13.5 months is way to young for spanking even if you choose to spank. I read the Ezzo books for a paper I did for English and even in those books you don't spank until 15 to 18 months at the earliest.
I suggest using redirection, even if you have to pick your child up and bring her to another room, she will eventually get the point if you are consistent and remove her promptly from anything you don't want her doing when she is so young. I am surprised at how well that has worked with my daughter who is now almost 27 months. I have not even had to use time-out yet.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

yes, it worked to stop the behavior...and it also worked to show her she cannot trust you.








spanking is really a question of ethics...not whether it "works."
throwing things on the floor is natural behavior for her age. she's just a babe.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

She was spanked for discovering gravity! Discovering the world around you is not misbehavior. Get some books on child development so you'll recognize these developmental stages.

I, too, have snapped and hit. A whack on the behind stopped the behavior of my ADHD son. The next time I reached for my child, he cringed. And the next time the whack was no where near so effective.

Your child is a baby. Hitting a baby is a scary thing. I'm not sure what a 'spanking' consists of, over the knee? Or a whack?

What if, every time you burned something on the stove, or left the living room messy, YOU got spanked? And a messy living room is not part of our development.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Another thought I had after considering the response to my post about an occasional lapse not being the end of the world is that I know some parents who never ever hit and yet are pretty rotten controlling overbearing parents. My mother never hit or spanked me but she was pretty formidable when angry and so there was plenty of negativity; apparently my MIL was the same way. So the issue is still one of parental self-control, whether hitting is involved in the discipline or not. One example from a book of Dr Sears,' I think, is that a mother used to say, "Oh, Shana," every time her daughter spilled or made some mistake. She realized her child was mostly hearing her mother say her name in a tone of admonition, resignation, impatience...these have a negative effect on the self-image also.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

good point, LizD.


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