# "Locker room teasing" -- DH's circum. argument



## G'sGirl (Oct 27, 2006)

Hi, I'm new to posting on MDC, but have been lurking on the website for many months. My baby is due in May (baby's sex will be a surprise). Dh has been extremely supportive on many issues of my pregnancy and birth -- non-vaxing, AP, cloth-diapering etc. However, we are at odds over circumcision.

He has read the articles I printed from MDC and also from the AAP that states they no longer recommend circumcision. Yey, he is certain that if we do not circum. our son will face tramatic teasing later on in life...in the locker room, from females unfamiliar with intact men, etc. He feels that the trama is easily forgotten since the baby is an infant during the procedure. I have tried countering his argument that our son's penis maybe the subject of teasing regardless...he feels we would be irresponsible not to take this "precaution" to prevent any unwanted feelings of being different. He is very clear that a man's penis is the one thing that no man can take teasing over.

Please help...is it true that intact children/adults are teased and rejected by their peers? Either way, what do I say to my dh?

I want to keep our son (if we are blessed with a boy) intact, but dh has been so supportive of everything else I've requested...if this will create a wall between us, I feel I must reconsider his position.

Thank you in advance for your responses.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

*MYTH: Intact boys will be teased in the locker room.*

FACT: Although this may have been an issue for a few boys when the circumcision rate in America was at its peak, the incidence of circumcision in the United States is steadily decreasing. The National Center for Health Statistics reports the national circumcision rate at less than 60%. In the western states, where 65% of the boys are now intact, the locker room scene has reversed. Circumcised boys have already begun to ask "Why am I different?" and "Why did you let them cut off part of my penis?" One man asked a friend if he felt "different" when he was the only intact guy in the shower, and he said, "Yes--gloriously different" (personal correspondence to John A. Erickson, Director, Gulf Coast Circumcision Information Center).

kldliam says:

The best way to arm your son from potential penis ridicule (and all kids find countless & creative ways to ridicule their peers, genitals aside) is this:

1. Educate him about why he was left intact. Once he understands how unfortunate the mutilated children are, and how very lucky he is to have all of his 'g-d-given' equipment that works properly, he will appreciate it, and more so as he grows. Also show him a circ-torture video; he'll thank you profusely!

2. Tell him to extend his _sympathy or pity_ to those who were held down against their will to under-go genital-reduction 'surgery'.

3. If some smart-a** kid dares to say something about his intact status, he simply needs to turn and reply, "Why are you so interested in my unit dude? Do you always check out other guys in this way?" Re: women who might say something: Always remember that the intact penis is a good stupid-woman filter. Any chick that would be low enough to make your son feel unhappy about his status, aint worth hanging onto!


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## rjruiz_415 (Dec 5, 2006)

Of course- that is just the easiest 'quick argument' to come up with... but no, my dh is not circumcised and he was never made fun of growing up...and i, being his wife, have no 'issue' with him not being circ'd...


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

This isn't Happy Days...we live in 2007!!! Potsie and Richie aren't showering together after gym class, checking out everybody's penile status. These days, if you look below the neckline in the locker room OR the bathroom (this your DH should KNOW), you're called a ***. It's that simple, guys don't go there!!! His arguement is null and VOID!!!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

I asked my 27-year-old intact brother (living in Illinois) if any woman ever ridiculed him or if he dealt with ridicule in the locker room...

*He said* he was never the type to walk around in the locker room seeking out genital publicity. He prefers discretion when he is nude in public.

He says of the 6 women he's slept with, only 1 ridiculed him and it was after the break-up. He also noted that she was the worst witch he'd ever dated.


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## Tinijocaro (Jan 4, 2003)

DS 11 just finished a swimming unit in gym class. He told me all the boys go off into the bathroom stalls or into a corner to change. So far, they are all still pretty modest.

Ask your dh if he'd rather be in the "have" or the "have not" camp when it comes to penis parts and size. With the rate being as low as it is, I'd much rather be in the "have" camp.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
This isn't Happy Days...we live in 2007!!! Potsie and Richie aren't showering together after gym class, checking out everybody's penile status. These days, if you look below the neckline in the locker room OR the bathroom (this your DH should KNOW), you're called a ***. It's that simple, guys don't go there!!! His arguement is null and VOID!!!









:

Besides, with the circumcision rate dropping...if there was any teasing going on, it'll most likely be the intact kids picking on the mutilated ones.

My best friend's son (now 16) had a comeback ready (just in case the "why are you checking out my package dude? response did not get the right effect) He planned on saying "my mom loved me enough to not chop off half my D**k when I was born"

He's on 2 sports teams and has never had to use either...


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

My DH was the exact same way! He was/is very fearful that intact boys will get made fun of by his male peers and many women with whom he might become intimate with. The only way I got DH to agree to not circing our newborn (she turned out to be a girl, so it was a moot issue in the end) was to promise that if said child comes to us when he's older (we agreed 16 and above) and wants to get circ'd, that we 100% support him in this decision and pay for it.

I have faith in the world that in 16 years, intact males will be the majority, not the minority and it won't be a factor. Additionally, I pray that we can raise any future son to be confident and secure enough that he will not feel the need to cut off part of his own penis just to fit in.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

The rates are somewhere around 50-50 nationally, so the odds are your son won't be the only one intact in the locker room. And he can always make the choice for himself later to get circed -- but what if he's circed and gets teased by intact boys? What if he moves to Europe or South America or Asia for a year abroad, and he's the only circumcised one?

And what if he has a big nose, or ears that stick out, or has to wear glasses?

The fact of the matter is, number one, he's highly unlikely to get teased for his penis status. Number two, he has his whole life ahead of him -- why cut a part off over hypothetical teasing that might occur once or twice in school, a short part of his life? Number three, kids tease, and what other cosmetic surgery are you going to do on your child, male or female, at birth, to try to prevent teasing incidents?

You need to understand, this is really not about the locker room and about teasing. This is about your husband's fears about being circumcised and therefore missing something sexually, about whether his involuntary circumcision was worth it, whether it protected him from something. This is a very important article for you (not your dh) to read, to see where he's coming from, whether he can admit it or not: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

I'm sure your dh is a good guy and would not knowingly harm his son, but you have to understand, he's not arguing from reason and logic here, he's arguing irrationally to protect a very important part of his ego and his identity. He can't think that circumcision is harmful because that means that he himself was harmed, and that he had no choice over how his penis looks or functions. That's a bitter pill for most men to swallow, and many men just can't come to grips with it, so they deny that circumcision is harmful and insist that it must be done for the benefit of their sons. And so the cycle of violence continues.

You need to respect your husband as your partner and the father of your child, but just because he has a penis doesn't give him the right to cut off part of your son's penis. It will be your son's penis and no one else's. Your son's penis is not a bargaining chip to be used in your marriage or in your child-rearing decisions. You are not "getting your way" or "forcing something down his throat" if you put your foot down on circ -- you're protecting your baby from unnecessary genital reduction surgery.

Think of how much of a wall it will create between you if you acquiesce and allow your son to be cut to protect your dh's ego. Every time you change your son's diaper, you will be reminded that your son's foreskin was a bargaining chip in your marriage so you could get your dh's buy-in. And think of how your son might feel as an adult, knowing that you knew better about circumcision, but allowed it to happen anyway.

You can do this, mama. Get in touch with your inner mama bear, as well as your inner diplomat, and do whatever it takes to protect your baby.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ask dh what he would have said as a kid if someone in the locker room had commented on his penis? I mean isn't the last things guys want to be caught doing (unless they are gay) is looking at another boys penis?


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Quirky: I'm sure your dh is a good guy and would not knowingly harm his son, but you have to understand, he's not arguing from reason and logic here, *he's arguing irrationally to protect a very important part of his ego and his identity. He can't think that circumcision is harmful because that means that he himself was harmed, and that he had no choice over how his penis looks or functions.* That's a bitter pill for most men to swallow, and many men just can't come to grips with it, so they deny that circumcision is harmful and insist that it must be done for the benefit of their sons. And so the cycle of violence continues.

You need to respect your husband as your partner and the father of your child, but just because he has a penis doesn't give him the right to cut off part of your son's penis. It will be your son's penis and no one else's. Your son's penis is not a bargaining chip to be used in your marriage or in your child-rearing decisions. You are not "getting your way" or "forcing something down his throat" if you put your foot down on circ -- you're protecting your baby from unnecessary genital reduction surgery.

Think of how much of a wall it will create between you if you acquiesce and allow your son to be cut to protect your dh's ego. Every time you change your son's diaper, you will be reminded that your son's foreskin was a bargaining chip in your marriage so you could get your dh's buy-in. And think of how your son might feel as an adult, knowing that you knew better about circumcision, but allowed it to happen anyway.

Brillant post!









Sorry to hog the soapbox, but I wanted to post this too:

*Text of Ronald Goldman's letter
calling to account the AAP spokesman who glibly proffered the "look like Daddy" fallacy to reporters.*

Michael Copeland
American Academy of Pediatrics
141 Northwest Point Blvd.
P.O. Box 927
Elk Grove Village, IL 60009-0927

April 7, 1997

Dear Mr. Copeland:

The following quote has been called to my attention in a newspaper article connected with the April 2 JAMA article on circumcision:

"If Dad is circumcised and junior is not," said Michael Copeland, spokesman for the American Academy of Pediatrics, the son _"may have some psychosocial issues in that he looks different from Dad."_

As a psychologist and the author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma, I have done a thorough search of the literature to investigate this belief. There is no published evidence whatsoever to support your statement.

This myth is the product of a psychological defense mechanism called projection, the process of attributing feelings to others that belong to oneself. It is the circumcised father who may have some psychosocial
issues if he looks different from his son. The fear of confronting these issues in themselves motivates circumcised men to cling to the myth that uncircumcised sons will have such issues. Furthermore, when the first generation of American boys was circumcised, they looked different from their uncircumcised fathers. This myth was not prevalent then because uncircumcised men had no repressed feelings about how their penis looked.

As part of the research for my book, I interviewed uncircumcised men about their feelings. Their statements and other pertinent information lead me to the following inferences regarding the decision to circumcise for social or "matching" reasons:

The circumcision status of the father is not necessarily known or important to a male child.

A circumcised boy who "matches" others may nevertheless have negative feelings about being circumcised. These feelings can last a lifetime.(1)

It is not possible to predict prior to circumcision how a boy will feel about it later.

Even though uncircumcised men are in the minority, there is some indication that most uncircumcised men are happy to be that way.

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about it can choose to be circumcised, but this is rarely done. The estimated rate of adult circumcision in the United States is 3 in 1000.(2)

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about his status may feel different after learning more about circumcision and the important functions of the foreskin.

The social factor is much less of an issue for boys born today because of the lower circumcision rate (approximately 60 percent nationally, under 40 percent in some states(3)). These two accounts from mothers of uncircumcised sons add another
perspective to the discussion of choosing circumcision for social reasons.

"My youngest son [seven years old] is completely content at being 'different' from his father and [three] older brothers. When I explained circumcision to him, his face took on a frightened expression as he cupped his hands over his genitals and loudly declared, 'That is never going to happen to me!!' "(4)

"When my eight-year-old son was five, he noticed a difference in the appearance of the other boys' penises. I told him that's because they had their foreskins cut off. He said, 'That's horrible.' He's very adamant about it."(5)

I asked the second mother if I could talk with her son, Michael. Because he lives in an area with a very high circumcision rate, he is the only boy in his class who is not circumcised.

RG: How did you first learn about circumcision?

Michael: My mom told me when I was little, and she didn't want that to happen to me.

RG: How do you feel about her not wanting to let it happen to you?

Michael: I'm glad 'cause it's scary. It's scary for a little baby.

RG: At school, do the other kids have foreskins, or are they
circumcised?

Michael: They're circumcised.

RG: How does it make you feel when you see that they're circumcised?

Michael: Kind of sad, because they had it cut off.

RG: Do the other boys notice that you have a foreskin and they don't?

Michael: Uh huh. And they say my penis looks weird.

RG: What do you think when they say that?

Michael: I say, "No it doesn't. Yours looks weird." Then I tell them
why there is still skin over mine and not over theirs.

RG: Then what do they say?

Michael: Some say they don't believe it. Some just walk away.(6)

It appears that if an uncircumcised boy is given proper information, it is possible to prevent a negative impact from extreme minority status in a group of circumcised boys.

I hope you now understand that by perpetuating the "matching" myth, you do a great disservice to the American public and undermine the credibility of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The public is understandably confused about circumcision. Your statement only serves to increase the confusion. It would certainly help if the AAP issued a news release to
correct your mistake.

As you know, the AAP will be reporting on circumcision in the near future. Many people who care deeply about circumcision are looking for the AAP to report accurate, factual information about this complex issue.
If, for whatever reason, you cannot resist the temptation to express your personal beliefs when you talk to the media about circumcision, then perhaps someone else should take over this responsibility. Reporting to
the public about circumcision is too important to risk this mistake being made again.

Sincerely,

Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.
Executive Director

(1) Goldman, R., Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard
Publications, 1997), 103-115.

(2) Wallerstein, E., Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy (New
York: Springer Publishing, 1980), 48.

(3) National Centre for Health Statistics, telephone conversation with
author 1997. Rate is for 1994.

(4) Romberg, R., "Circumcision Feedback" (letter to the editor), Mensa
Bulletin, May 1993.

(5) Huggins, R., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.

(6) Huggins, M., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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## rjruiz_415 (Dec 5, 2006)

Thats a good one









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
.

My best friend's son (now 16) had a comeback ready (just in case the "why are you checking out my package dude? response did not get the right effect) He planned on saying "my mom loved me enough to not chop off half my D**k when I was born


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Hello!







Welcome to the Case Against Circumcision forum!








I am the mother of two grown intact sons. When my youngest was 17, I asked him if he'd ever been teased for being intact. His answer? "He**, no!"







He then went on to explain what a total taboo there was around looking at someone else's genitals; the one doing the looking would be the one being teased, not the intact boy. By the way, we live in rural Iowa, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only intact boy in his class, other than the foreign exchange student.


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## cristina63303 (Apr 3, 2006)

He may end up living somewhere else, say Europe. Hey, it happened to me and it surely was not in my plans to move to Germany! All my kids' friends are intact (except for 2 Muslim boys). A circumcised guy would surely be the oddity.

As for the women's reaction, well I'm really greatful that DH is intact - TMI, but it works better that way.







(Btw, so are my brother, father, nephews, his brother, father, etc, etc. Everyone is intact in both our extended families, not a single bad experience to report). DH went to school in USA and played lots of sports - never an issue. When I asked him, he looked puzzled.

Oh, and one more thing, ask an intact man to part with his foreskin and you'll get a loud NO WAY!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

My question is why take away over 30% (and sometimes up to 50%) of the potential sexual pleasure your son would get with his foreskin just so possibly, maybe he might be teased for being intact?? It makes me







: just thinking about that.

Why do I say 30-50%? becuase when the foreskin is removed that is how much total penile skin is LOST.

We have had others here who's dh have been adament that their son's be circed and the mothers were worrying about it affecting there marriage and you know what they got over it.

How will you feel toward your dh if he insists on inflicting this totally unnecissary procedure on your son? Will that not affect your marriage?

I am not saying that to be snarky at all. I am just trying to get you to think about this from both perspectives.

The regrets sticky at the top of the main forum is full of woman who have to live with the decision they made to allow their dh to make this choice. A choice by the way that should be made by the owner of the penis not someone who after the first years of life have nothing to do with that area.

As for woman who may be turned off by the foreskin, there is a saying here about that "The foreskin is the perfect shallow woman filter". If some woman is so ignorent as to not be with a man based on his penis status, she isnt worth having.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Here are some facts that you and your dh may not be aware of and that you need to know before making the decision to cut off this most important part of the penis.

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or "glans" of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world's male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

- 80% of the world's circumcised men in the world are in the US. 80% of the world's Viagra sales are in the US. Coincidence?

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- *The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.*

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

- Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - none of which are scientifically provable are even remotely true.

- Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man's body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to black and white TV and plasma TV. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) *The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.*

- No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that *might*(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

- The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.
UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

Quote:

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we wouldn't cut off their clitoris or labia to prevent them.

Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

Quote:

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Quote:

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Quote:

******* established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.
Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html
Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he's ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
Infections;
Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
Hair on the shaft;
Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
Skin bridges
Adhesions
Scaring on the penis shaft
Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/
DEATH
and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn't have a say in the matter.

- "Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem."

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

- What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys?

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn't bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It's supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off - most often with NO pain relief. *They also stimulate an erection so they "know where to cut." A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.*

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

I







up this post for you to read as well. Something to think about


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Great post by Quirky.

The locker room thing has always seemed the most ridiculous thing to me in part because I myself never showered in gym class ever. I didn't have a locker room with a big joint shower until I was in graduate school. By that age I know no guys are going to be making remarks about it. And with the numbers changing there's just no reason to think he'd be such an oddity.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I got teased about being totally flat chested in high school. My mom didn't get me breast implants.









Honestly, though, the rates are pretty much 50/50. 30 years ago when the circ rate was 90%? Maybe...but now, no. It's just not going to happen.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

And I was teased for having big boobs but no one suggested a reduction.


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## BamaDude (Aug 17, 2006)

There were a couple of intact guys guys in my class at school during the 70s and early 80s, but I never once heard their intact status being commented on in any way. The fact that I was an "early bloomer" and started developing in a very obvious way, however, was a source of much more interest to my classmates during the 5th grade than anyone's intact status was. By high school many of them had caught up with me and it ceased to be an issue.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

And really, what's the worst case scenario, even assuming the unlikelihood of vast majorities of circ'd boys & brightly lit communal showers-

"Nyah, nyah- Your mom didn't cut off part of your...never mind."


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

My sister's exboyfriend is intact (born in early 80's in utah) and when she asked him about teasing he said, "huh? Why would someone tease me?" He really was quite confused about it. I also know of an intact boy (somewhere in the midwest) that didn't realize people circumcised for non-religious reasons until he was 14, and even then he thought it was barbaric. I think it's an absolutely ridiculous reason to circ, because there is no predicting the future and what a boy will be teased about. Especially if you teach him when he's older about why he was left intact, I highly doubt there will be any traumatic teasing. What if his friends are intact and he wonders why he isn't? How will you explain that to him? I think it will be a lot easier to tell a boy why he is intact then why he is circumcised. Just look at all the men that are restoring or that are angry at their parents for robbing them of their foreskins. Kids will be teased, and he comes home crying one day, I would tell him exactly what that kid's parents did to him when he was a baby, and what they will be missing in future sexual relationships (age appropriate of course). Good luck!


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

Another thing, what if your son is circ'd and something horrible happens (more than normal)? Will you blame your dh? What if your sons actually dies? What if he is never able to have sex because it actually became deformed? When I was first researching circ, these are the reasons that turned me off of it. I was not willing to take the risk, even though I still thought it might be better. Now I know a lot more and there are many reasons I wouldn't. But I just knew I could not live with myself if I had my son circ'd and he died from it (though a small risk, it's still a risk).


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I didnt real all the previous posts, but I want to add my take.
First off my BIL's are both intact. They went to school in the late 80's and the 90's. Most of the other boys were circ'd. However, they were NEVER ever made fun of. Basically my dh says that it was pretty much understood that if any one guy tried to say anything about another guy's penis, he would be the one getting made fun of.
Now, on the opposite end, my ds's teacher had to tell all the parents to discuss circumcision with their kids (they are in first grade) after the only two circ'd boys got made fun of by the other boys for having "funny looking penises." Now, granted this is first grade, they just didnt know better, but the fact is that only two boys in that class are circ'd. Circ rates are at about 50% nationwide now. This means that there is very little chance your ds would be the only one intact anyway.
Besides all that, IF he were ever made fun of, you can always teach him some comebacks. I heard someone get made fun of in high school for being intact (during computer class of all things, lol) and that guy made the circ'd kid feel like crap. Granted it isnt very nice, but he defended himself and he had way more leg to stand on then the other kid.







I also want to add that both when I was in high school (grad in 2000) and now (my sister and cousins are both 15 and live in different states) its known to the girls (and probably the boys just cause of the girls knowing) that intact guys are supposed to be better in bed. Sadly the circ'd guys are being stigmatized. I will admit that for me, intact sex was absolutely awsome, but it may not be the same for every woman. Anyway, the point is that even if anything happened, Iwould hope that your son would be able to handle his own....and if he really hated being intact (which is pretty darned rare) he could always get circ'd later. You can always circ later but he can never get back his foreskin if he hates being circ'd (which is relatively common).


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 

You need to understand, this is really not about the locker room and about teasing. This is about your husband's fears about being circumcised and therefore missing something sexually, about whether his involuntary circumcision was worth it, whether it protected him from something. This is a very important article for you (not your dh) to read, to see where he's coming from, whether he can admit it or not: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

You can do this, mama. Get in touch with your inner mama bear, as well as your inner diplomat, and do whatever it takes to protect your baby.









:

This was my answer to my family members who brought up the potential "teasing" issue:

I REFUSE TO LET *POTENTIAL FUTURE HIGH-SCHOOL BULLIES* DICTATE HOW I RAISE MY SON AND WHAT CHOICES I MAKE FOR HIM!!!

And I have to tell you.........my BIL was most concerned about my son getting teased. Well now, that same BIL is the proud papa of a 1-year-old INTACT boy!! A little education goes a long way.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh, and read my signature. You're not just protecting your son; you're also protecting yourself as his mama and you're protecting the bond that you and your son share.


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## G'sGirl (Oct 27, 2006)

Thank you so very much to all who have replied to my post. I'm especially appreciative for the sharing of actual comments and feelings from the men in your lives.

I've done extensive research on the ills of circumcision (I'm currently a doctoral student--engineering not medical) so I've probably achieved overkill in supporting evidence. Sometimes the more facts and sources I bring up only fuels dh's resistance; you can make a strong argument with biased media. It is much more difficult to maneuver around matters of dh's psyche. And in marriage, this is so individual and personal. I'm going to request/push for dh to agree to delaying circumcision until our child is of age to decide for himself.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *notyetamommy* 
Another thing, what if your son is circ'd and something horrible happens (more than normal)?

Great point! What I can recall from school locker room days (early 80's, midwest US, probably 97+% circ'd) is that there were only 4 or 5 intact boys. I can also recall there were at least 3 with buried/trapped/concealed penis (circ complication). I don't recall a word ever being said to those among either group, but it's not hard to imagine who was actually more embarrassed by their genitals.


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## teeny_bean (Jul 27, 2006)

My husband, who is 30, is intact, and he has never been teased in the locker room, mens' room, or anywhere else. As so many other people here have said, men are expected to look anywhere BUT another man's penis, because if a man is looking at another man's penis, it implies that he's gay -- and most guys are just not okay with signaling that, even if they ARE gay.

It is his opinion that the locker room reasoning is way, way overrated, and a silly reason to circ a baby.


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## nandodianenicole (May 31, 2006)

I was talking to a nurse that works with me about the issue, and she said as far as she is aware, there was never any teasing about her son's intact penis. He is now in his 20's and is a gym teacher. So if there was teasing, it obviously didnt traumatize him enough to keep him out of the locker room as a profession.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Getting on to this thread a bit late - However, what everyone else has posted is very true, and if there ever was a comment, it would be the circ'd kid that would end up feeling bad. I truly believe that some parents who chose to circumcise their sons will be facing difficult questions when said sons realise what happened to them.

For what it's worth, I spent my entire school career, starting at age 6 , in boys boarding schools with totaly open, communal shower rooms. About 2/3 were circumcised, 1/3 intact. I can not recall one single instance of teasing based on penile status. It was just accepted that there were two types !!


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

My FIL had this argument for circing my dh. DH replied "not once did someone look at my penis in the locker room"


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:

He then went on to explain what a total taboo there was around looking at someone else's genitals; the one doing the looking would be the one being teased, not the intact boy.
That's what DH told me, as well. He played quite a few sports in highschool, and thus spent a lot of time in the locker room. Nobody ever commented on his penis. And the circumcision rate was a lot higher then, than it is now. I highly doubt my son will have any locker room issues, in that regards.

If none of the statistical arguments work with your DH, I would suggest having him sit through one of the circumcision videos. I clicked one of the links a few days ago (I'd never watched a circ video before, no idea what made me decide that I needed to see one), and DH was sitting beside me and made me turn it off seconds into it, once he realized what it was. He was shaking his head and ranting when I read a bit of the transcript from the video (it's linked in a thread on this board). He said "You know, even if I had been circumcised...I'm a MAN! How could a man ever put his child through something like that - having his penis cut. *shudder*"


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Paddington* 
My FIL had this argument for circing my dh. DH replied "not once did someone look at my penis in the locker room"

my husband has said that you didn't dare get caught looking at another guy's penis for fear of being called "teh gay."


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I will echo what others have said and state that there will be many intact and cut penises in your son's locker room.

If your daughter was going to have small breasts would you give her a boob job to prevent teasing? Its totally illogical!

I did ask dh this and in his tiny school there was on inracr guy in his gym class but no one made fun of him, they all teased the kid who was really loud and made weird faces when he pooped.

IMO, not a reason to subject a helpless baby to a painful surgey.

Has he considered that he'd be peeing and popping on an open wound for weeks while it healed, btw?


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Has your husband seen the Penn & Teller show on the subject?
Every man I've showed this to, enjoyed it and got the message:


(CAUTION: not work or kid-friendly)


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

While reading this thread, I thought of another advantage to being uncircumcised.

If he IS ever in a locker room where he is the only one uncircumcised and he notices that, he can secretly pull it back.

Meanwhile, if there's a circumcised kid in a room of uncircumcised boys, he can't temporarily do anything down there to "fit in."

Of course, this opens up another can of worms if someone realizes what he did, or sees his foreskin in place later. But, at least the whole "why doesn't yours have a pink thing at the end?" won't take place and his circumcised friend might not end up being embarrased...

Hopefully that'll never take place. Hopefully the parents of circumcised kids will tell them not to look/point/stare/gawk/etc. down there.

But, from what I read on here, they usually change in corners or in the toilet stalls.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

My dh is a high school coach and has told me that it's the circ'd kids that get teased now.


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## RumiWithAView (Jan 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoablessing* 
The only way I got DH to agree to not circing our newborn (she turned out to be a girl, so it was a moot issue in the end) was to promise that if said child comes to us when he's older (we agreed 16 and above) and wants to get circ'd, that we 100% support him in this decision and pay for it.

This is the tact I'm thinking of taking. I think it is the most fair.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *G'sGirl* 
I'm going to request/push for dh to agree to delaying circumcision until our child is of age to decide for himself.

As it should be







Good luck to you getting your dh on board, with that kind of "compromise" though I think everybody wins.

As a side note, I know a couple who circed because of "the lockerroom". He is a big time jock and was quite insistant that his son be done so he wouldn't be the odd one out. Well, guess what, we all live in Canada and the circ rate here is only 10% so guess who the poor little "odd man out" is. Poor little guy.

Take care,
Tara


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## mommy2girlies (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
*MYTH: Intact boys will be teased in the locker room.*

FACT: Although this may have been an issue for a few boys when the circumcision rate in America was at its peak, the incidence of circumcision in the United States is steadily decreasing. The National Center for Health Statistics reports the national circumcision rate at less than 60%. In the western states, where 65% of the boys are now intact, the locker room scene has reversed. Circumcised boys have already begun to ask "Why am I different?" and "Why did you let them cut off part of my penis?" One man asked a friend if he felt "different" when he was the only intact guy in the shower, and he said, "Yes--gloriously different" (personal correspondence to John A. Erickson, Director, Gulf Coast Circumcision Information Center).

kldliam says:

The best way to arm your son from potential penis ridicule (and all kids find countless & creative ways to ridicule their peers, genitals aside) is this:

1. Educate him about why he was left intact. Once he understands how unfortunate the mutilated children are, and how very lucky he is to have all of his 'g-d-given' equipment that works properly, he will appreciate it, and more so as he grows. Also show him a circ-torture video; he'll thank you profusely!

2. Tell him to extend his _sympathy or pity_ to those who were held down against their will to under-go genital-reduction 'surgery'.

3. If some smart-a** kid dares to say something about his intact status, he simply needs to turn and reply, "Why are you so interested in my unit dude? Do you always check out other guys in this way?" Re: women who might say something: Always remember that the intact penis is a good stupid-woman filter. Any chick that would be low enough to make your son feel unhappy about his status, aint worth hanging onto!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
This isn't Happy Days...we live in 2007!!! Potsie and Richie aren't showering together after gym class, checking out everybody's penile status. These days, if you look below the neckline in the locker room OR the bathroom (this your DH should KNOW), you're called a ***. It's that simple, guys don't go there!!! His arguement is null and VOID!!!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
The rates are somewhere around 50-50 nationally, so the odds are your son won't be the only one intact in the locker room. And he can always make the choice for himself later to get circed -- but what if he's circed and gets teased by intact boys? What if he moves to Europe or South America or Asia for a year abroad, and he's the only circumcised one?

And what if he has a big nose, or ears that stick out, or has to wear glasses?

The fact of the matter is, number one, he's highly unlikely to get teased for his penis status. Number two, he has his whole life ahead of him -- why cut a part off over hypothetical teasing that might occur once or twice in school, a short part of his life? Number three, kids tease, and what other cosmetic surgery are you going to do on your child, male or female, at birth, to try to prevent teasing incidents?

You need to understand, this is really not about the locker room and about teasing. This is about your husband's fears about being circumcised and therefore missing something sexually, about whether his involuntary circumcision was worth it, whether it protected him from something. This is a very important article for you (not your dh) to read, to see where he's coming from, whether he can admit it or not: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

I'm sure your dh is a good guy and would not knowingly harm his son, but you have to understand, he's not arguing from reason and logic here, he's arguing irrationally to protect a very important part of his ego and his identity. He can't think that circumcision is harmful because that means that he himself was harmed, and that he had no choice over how his penis looks or functions. That's a bitter pill for most men to swallow, and many men just can't come to grips with it, so they deny that circumcision is harmful and insist that it must be done for the benefit of their sons. And so the cycle of violence continues.

You need to respect your husband as your partner and the father of your child, but just because he has a penis doesn't give him the right to cut off part of your son's penis. It will be your son's penis and no one else's. Your son's penis is not a bargaining chip to be used in your marriage or in your child-rearing decisions. You are not "getting your way" or "forcing something down his throat" if you put your foot down on circ -- you're protecting your baby from unnecessary genital reduction surgery.

Think of how much of a wall it will create between you if you acquiesce and allow your son to be cut to protect your dh's ego. Every time you change your son's diaper, you will be reminded that your son's foreskin was a bargaining chip in your marriage so you could get your dh's buy-in. And think of how your son might feel as an adult, knowing that you knew better about circumcision, but allowed it to happen anyway.

You can do this, mama. Get in touch with your inner mama bear, as well as your inner diplomat, and do whatever it takes to protect your baby.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rjruiz_415* 
Thats a good one









great posts!! ITA!


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