# Safety Issues and In Laws



## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

My in-laws currently own what I have lovingly entitled The Death Trap House. There are a multitude of unsafe things about their house but right now there are mainly two that bother me. They have a screened in pool which connects to the house in no less than 18 different ways (doors and windows that open). Plus my father in law smokes constantly and I worry about the effect the second hand smoke will have on my son.

The pool was built sometime in the last two years so it is required to have "a barrier blocking access" per Florida laws. Apparently the code inspector considered putting alarms (which have since been disabled) on the doors to be sufficient. My father in law disabled them so that he can constantly go out on the patio and smoke. When I brought up the subject of pool fences or pool nets he said he wouldn't do it because "they put holes in the ground"







My son's safety is worth less than some holes in the ground!

This is not the first thing that he is pushing back on. Anything to do with smoking and the baby is a big issue with him. Like I said earlier, he likes to smoke in the open doorway to the house while watching tv. He doesn't believe the smoke is infiltrating his house. He also refuses to wash up before holding the baby after smoking. When I remind him, he lies and says he already did. Then when I outright tell him he has to, he still complains.







On Easter Sunday when I was outside with the baby he went around the corner of the patio and lit up (about 4 feet away) When I said something about smelling smoke he complained yet again!

My husband and I are trying a divide and conquer technique. I'm going to write him an email (Computer programmer. Email are his preferred method of contact) about the pool safety issues and my husband is going to speak to him about smoking. I would love some resources, studies, and statistics that I can use and also pass on to my husband.

I would like to see that my father in law quit smoking but I know that is not going to happen. I am willing to compromise by having smoke free clothes for him to change into and for him to wash his hands and face thoroughly. I'm not sure if I should offer to purchase the clothes for him. I fear that he will pick something out of his closet and call it "smoke free". Now the pool issue is pretty black and white. My son will not be going over there without either a pool fence or net being installed. At their last house they had a near drowning while 20 something adults were in the vicinity of the pool. I cannot risk this happening with my son.

Well sorry this was long. I think I tend to write too much sometimes. Over the next few days I want to start my letter to him and I will post it here for review and critique before sending. Thanks!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

You don't have a right to tell them to change their home or habits. You do have a right not to stay at their house. If that means that they only get to see your ds once a year instead of four times because that's how often you can afford a hotel (with a nice, blocked off pool







), then that's the consequence of their lifestyle choice.

In your own home, of course, your rules.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I agree with the PP -- it is their home and you really can't dictate what they do or don't do there. You can ask for them to do things to make it safer for your child, but you can't demand. Of course, you absolutely can decide not to have your child there.

My MIL smokes. When she visits us, she must smoke outside and dump her ashtray in the trashcan as she leaves. When my children were babies I would ask her to wash her hands after smoking -- now my kids are not of "holding" age any more, so its not an issue. But in her home I would never dream of dictating where or when she smokes. I do however, control how much exposure me (I'm asthmatic) and my children get to her smoke. So we didn't visit often when they were really young and then we spent most of the time outside.

For me, the occassional exposure to second hand smoke was worth it for them to have a relationship with their grandparents. I have never permitted them to spend the night there (while they do with my parents frequently) and my limit is 3 hours at their home for my own safety and sanity.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Agree with PPs. You cannot "make" them alter their house or their habits. You can tell them that you will not visit until things change.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
You don't have a right to tell them to change their home or habits. You do have a right not to stay at their house. If that means that they only get to see your ds once a year instead of four times because that's how often you can afford a hotel (with a nice, blocked off pool







), then that's the consequence of their lifestyle choice.

In your own home, of course, your rules.

I do not wish to tell them what to do. I don't believe that was what I was saying above. If they don't want to put up a fence (etc), then my family will not able to go to his house. Unfortunately there aren't any hotels nearby them, plus we could not afford it. This would limit them to visiting only at my place, which I haven't a problem with, but I can almost guarantee my mother in law would. She loves "entertaining" and part of that is "showing off her grandson". I want to be able to give them options that they can chose from (ie, barrier or visits only at my house) not rules!









Of course the smoking issues are still a problem at my house as well as in public. He goes outside to smoke in the open doorway, my husband mentions something, we all get berated. Or wearing smokey clothing while asking to hold the baby always gets some sort of "lip". Again I don't want to limit their access together with "rules", but I want them to be able to interact in a safe manner. Thanks!

ETA: I'm sorry if maybe I'm being way off base with my expectations. To me my son's life (in regards to the pool issues) is more important than him seeing my father in law. Maybe though I can relax a bit on the smoking. I would like him to at least wash up afterward. To me that is reasonable?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Ew, just reread and it looks like your FIL would wear his smoke-ridden clothes at your house. If he were at all respectful, I'd suggest offering to wash his clothes when he got there, but as things are, you might have to "accidentally" spill juice all over him.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
I do not wish to tell them what to do. I don't believe that was what I was saying above. If they don't want to put up a fence (etc), then my family will not able to go to his house. Unfortunately there aren't any hotels nearby them, plus we could not afford it. This would limit them to visiting only at my place, which I haven't a problem with, but I can almost guarantee my mother in law would. She loves "entertaining" and part of that is "showing off her grandson". I want to be able to give them options that they can chose from (ie, barrier or visits only at my house) not rules!









Of course the smoking issues are still a problem at my house as well as in public. He goes outside to smoke in the open doorway, my husband mentions something, we all get berated. Or wearing smokey clothing while asking to hold the baby always gets some sort of "lip". Again I don't want to limit their access together with "rules", but I want them to be able to interact in a safe manner. Thanks!









Sorry, I meant that as a guide to how you should phrase your letter. As it being their choice to see you guys or to leave things unsafe.

And if the smoking keeps the grandbaby away, MIL will probably come down on FIL like a ton of bricks.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Ew, just reread and it looks like your FIL would wear his smoke-ridden clothes at your house. If he were at all respectful, I'd suggest offering to wash his clothes when he got there, but as things are, you might have to "accidentally" spill juice all over him.

Ha ha I might have to do this. Because yup he stinks up my own house by smoking in my open doorway. Then walks over to me and tries to hold the baby. Not but 5 minutes later.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







Sorry, I meant that as a guide to how you should phrase your letter. As it being their choice to see you guys or to leave things unsafe.

And if the smoking keeps the grandbaby away, MIL will probably come down on FIL like a ton of bricks.

Ah! Thanks! I really don't want to be a B**** to him (not mentioning the dog that has bitten 3 people (2 unprovoked) or the gas fireplace or the 70 other things I can watch for myself) so I am defintely going to phrase it as a choice to him. My father in law does not respond to "rules" very well.









Unfortunately my mother in law helps me on the smoking issue but he doesn't budge. I say something, she repeats it and he just continues to complain.









(side note: He honestly wanted to take my 4 1/2 month old son to New York next week without us! and couldn't understand why I said no. Even after mother in law tried to explain it all (breastfeeding was met with the response of UPS it) he still was mad at me!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

How often do you see the in-laws? My MIL smokes but we only see her about once a month for a few hours. I hate that DS is exposed to third-hand smoke even that short time but since we don't see them often it's not worth making an issue of (re: changing clothes/washing hands/etc.) Of course she doesn't smoke right near the baby but we have had some incidents of her smoking in the other room







So I usually just take DS and go outside when that happens. She does not smoke in our house & I would certainly not allow it if she tried. I'm can be pretty timid but I would insist on no smoking in my own house or near open doorways. If your FIL tries to light up in/too close to your house, I would have your DH tell him he needs to go outside & close the door (else he won't be invited back). But I wouldn't make a big deal of changing clothes etc. unless you are seeing them often (not that I'd like biting my tongue







).

And is your son only 5 months old? Is he crawling/walking? I think the pool issue sounds like a very frustrating situation for you but I don't know that I totally understand it Are you just trying to prepare for when he's older, or is he in immediate danger from the pool? Definitely give them the "properly fence in or we don't visit" ultimatum when the time comes but I still can't see how a 5mo is in danger from an unsecured pool -- at that age (and now too) DS is always in my arms or in a contained area (i.e. gated room) when we visit the inlaws.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

On the smoking, I feel your pain, but I'd back down.







My mom smokes. Drives me nuts. I'd love for her to quit. But she's not gonna. She LOVES (adores, loves, loves, loves, would do anything for) my kids. When dd was tiny I tried to do the handwashing thing and it just didn't happen. She is respectful enough to not smoke with dd *right there* but she does smoke outside while dd and ds are outside with her. No way could I ever get her to change clothes- I don't think that's a reasonable request.

The pool- your rules when your kids are around. For me that would mean that myself or my dh were on CONSTANT kid duty when there, which would limit the time I would be willing to stay.

-Angela


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

I feel you on the smoking issue - both my parents smoke and we are about to have baby #2. When DD was an infant we lived nearby and didn't push the 3rd hand smoke thing since we only saw them a few hours at a time. But this time my mom is planning on coming and staying when my #2 is a few days old. I'm going to have to bring it up and I am dreading her reaction to it.......she won't respond well to being asked to wash her hands and change her shirt - not to mention her "clean" shirt is from her smoke filled house so it is still covered with chemicals.....she also buys us diapers which I have to either return or donate due to them reeking of smoke and every package she sends, everything inside reeks like smoke too.....she just doesn't get it.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't think I would bug them about it anymore. The smoking - I agree that it's unreasonable for you to ask him to change his clothes (everytime he had a cigarette?), and honestly, unless your DS spent hours being held by him every single day, I don't think the 3rd hand smoke is truly that much of a risk. I mean, it's not ideal, but I would say a good relationship with ones grandparent outweighs it. My own grandma smoked inside the home, and b/c she lived in another state, when we'd visit we would sleep there for several nights. It stunk, yes - and definitely irritated my own mom's lungs as she grew up breathing the smoke in, but I wouldn't give back that time spent wih my grandma for clean air (and sadly, she passed away from lung cancer). In your situation, at least he smokes elsewhere... So I would leave it at that.

The pool issue - it wouldn't overly bother me unless my kid was of walking age and going to be left at the grandparent's house w/o me or DH. With only one non-mobile infant, and even as a toddler, I think you just have to be sure he is in your sight at all times while visiting - just as you would in say, a public place.

Basically, I can see why you are concerned but I personally wouldn't insist on any changes or rules. It's their home, and they are adults. I know as a new mom you really want to protect your LO, but you can still do that w/o upsetting the IL's.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

So I may relax some about the smoking but I cannot relax about pool safety. My son will be mobile soon and I wanted to give them enough time to prepare. They are in current violation of Florida laws pertaining to their pool. A law which I actually whole heartedly agree with. Unfortunately they have already had a child almost drown (was unconcious when pulled from water. None of the 20 ish adults who were feet away knew how long the child was under for) so I really don't understand his reluctance. I plan on keeping my son in constant supervision but "accidents" do happen and I'm not willing to let this be one of them. Sorry if I'm being unreasonable but the rates of drowning deaths in florida are higher than any other state. I'm not going to take that risk. If that means they can only see my son in situations that follow current Florida laws then so be it. Of course though I am going to give them the choice to do whatever it is they want. They will have to deal with the consequences of their choices.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

You know, I wouldn't go for the whole confrontation thing. Just whenever they invite you to visit, say, Have you fixed your pool? No? Then we can't come, sorry!

When they visit you, fix your FIL a comfy chair in the back garden, away from the door and tell him that's the only place he can smoke and the house door must be closed. Shoo him back to it if he moves and don't take any of his crap. Just repeat: We don't want smoke in the house. Your smoke is getting in the house, I'm going to close the door now, etc.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

That sickens me that they had a child almost drown & STILL refuse to do anything about it.

But I will admit I'm still confused. Unless your DS is going to be wandering around with no supervision, I have a hard time seeing how he's in danger. We visit many places that are not 100% safe but DS is always in arm's reach and both DH & I are on guard constantly. I guess visits would be more relaxing if they had some safeguards in place but it sounds like there are so many safety issues with the house that you will still need to follow him around 24/7. How often are you visiting there?

I hope they're receptive to your stipulations, good luck!!

ETA: I'm just remembering back to right before DS learned to walk and I was having panic attacks thinking he'd fall down the steep stairwell at church. He's been walking for months now & the stairwell has been a non-issue. I guess I understand your anxiety over the pool but you might find that once he's ACTUALLY mobile, it's not as big an issue as you think it will be (assuming you'll be right there next to him all the time). Oh and I like the pp's suggestion of not making it a confrontation, just say sorry we can't visit since you haven't fixed the pool.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

I have to say I am very surprised that I seem to be the only one who gives a hoot about pool safety. I'm not exactly going to be confrontational with him but I will be direct. I want to give him a chance to have a relationship with his grandson so instead of saying "no pool fix, no visit" I would rather give them the opportunity to fix the pool. Like I said above I'm doing this now because mobility is around the corner.

Let me try to put my fear into numbers. In Florida for children 0-4 it is the number 1 killer (drowning). This is a quote from the (Florida) Injury and Drowning Prevention Handouts: "Annually enough children to fill four preschool classrooms do not live to see their 5th birthday." If one of the things that people can do to save 4 PRESCHOOL CLASSES OF CHILDREN is put up a stinking fence, then why wouldn't they? CPSC recommends "The key to preventing these tragedies is to have layers of protection. This includes placing barriers around your pool to prevent access, using pool alarms, closely supervising your child and being prepared in case of an emergency."

"Several systematic reviews have concluded that pool fencing is the best strategy for reducing the risk of young children drowning in domestic swimming pools...Studies show that caregiver factors and supervision are not enough to prevent drowning." That was from the Manitoba Canada handout Preventing Drowning in Manitoba.

What I find interesting ( and I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way. I'm def not attacking anyone. Risk Assessment is very personal and YMMV) is that motor vehicle accidents kill less children 0-4 in Florida than drowning. Now if I had said that my father in law wanted to drive around without my son in a car seat everyone here would be up in arms. Most likely saying that its illegal. Well my fil's pool is just as deadly and just as illegal.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Actually, I'd be saying the same thing. You can't control what they do, but you can control what you allow your son to be exposed to. If he won't make the pool legal and safe, you should not allow your son at their home. If he won't transport your son legally and safely, you should not allow your son in his vehicle.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I think some of us just aren't as concerned b/c we assume you will be keeping a close eye on the baby - and even more so as a toddler - since you said the house is dangerous is many ways. It would be similar to going to a crowded festival, or something. You would have your child in arm's reach all the time. It would be an entirely different thing, IMO, if your IL's were babysitting your kid at their place. Also, and I don't mean this in a rude way, but you only have one LO - I have four, and so I know how challenging it can be for even four adults (parents and grandparents) to keep track of all four at all times - so if you had several LO's who were walking, I could see being adament about the pool issue.

If they don't fix the pool issue and you aren't comfortable with it, I would just insist that any visiting is done at your house. If they really, really want their grandbaby to come over, they will make an effort to lock up the pool.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I understand your feelings - I was just like that when I had my first. I honestly remember feeling SO strongly about so many things, and putting my foot down ('cause I am the MAMA) on things like this. I don't disagree with you that the pool should have a fence or floating sensors or something, and I don't disagree that FIL should smoke outside with door closed.

Buuuuut... I agree with the majority that a relationship with your child's grandparents is more important than having the ideal safety situation at THEIR house. I wouldn't expect you to leave your baby there for grandparents to watch without you. But with one child and two parents to watch, I think the issues you are most concerned about can be watched for.

Asking FIL to smoke outside with the door closed is reasonable.
Asking FIL to wash his hands is a gray area; I wouldn't push it.
Asking FIL to change his clothes seems way over the top to me - and I hate smoking, have never had a cigarette in my life, don't let people smoke in my house or car, etc.

Regarding the pool, do you ever take your child anywhere with a fountain, a koi pond, the beach, a river, etc? There are lots of public areas that you and dp likely take your child that aren't fenced off. And when there, you watch dc carefully.

I can tell you that 13 years and 3 kids after I first started clashing with my MIL over various issues, I spend no time or energy on any of it. She loves the kids; they love her. She has Alzheimers now, and we are thankful that she still knows who we are most of the time. The things I went to the mat with her over WERE important, but I could have handled them better with a big deep breath and some distance from the situation.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
I have to say I am very surprised that I seem to be the only one who gives a hoot about pool safety. I'm not exactly going to be confrontational with him but I will be direct. I want to give him a chance to have a relationship with his grandson so instead of saying "no pool fix, no visit" I would rather give them the opportunity to fix the pool. Like I said above I'm doing this now because mobility is around the corner.

I don't think anyone here is uncaring about pool safety. We have a pool, and have lived here since my DS was 6 months old. I've BTDT, as they say. Our pool had a safety net within days of us moving in. But this isn't your house, this is your inlaws. I would do exactly what you suggest -- ask them to make the pool safe or limit visits until your child is past the dangerous ages for accidental drowning. But I think most of us are saying that you can give them this choice, but you can't *make* them do anything.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Everything Kirsten & Drummer's Wife said. It's not that we don't care about pool safety -- of course I think they should put up a fence!! If your son was older & likely to wander around the house unsupervised, then I might be panicking. But you have a couple of years before you reach that point. I do think you should discuss it with them now so they have plenty of time to put up the fence ("If you guys don't have a fence up by the time he's X age, we won't be able to visit") but like the pp's said, there will be lots of situations where safety is not perfect & you simply have to monitor your child. I know looking at the statistics that it sounds scary but your son is not going to jump out of your arms, crawl over to the door, open it, and jump into the pool while you & DH stand by helplessly. I am making a lot of assumptions here (that the grandparents would never be watching him alone, that your & DH would BOTH have eyes on him & be in arms reach at all times, etc.) but I would imagine the statistics you quoted include situations where the parents aren't properly supervising their baby/toddler (in which case a fence would be better protection than half-hearted supervision).

Also, who's in charge in their town of enforcing the pool safety laws? Could you make an anonymous report? Because I would worry less about your son (who I'm sure you have an eagle eye on!) than random unsupervised kids, and it sounds like this would warrant a report to whatever official is in charge of that.


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## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

Have you considered swimming lessons so your DS can flip himself over and float should he fall in? It's not a solution, of course, but it could give you a little more peace of mind.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
I would do exactly what you suggest -- ask them to make the pool safe or limit visits until your child is past the dangerous ages for accidental drowning. But I think most of us are saying that you can give them this choice, but you can't *make* them do anything.

This is exactly my point so thank you for putting it succinctly.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
But you have a couple of years before you reach that point. I do think you should discuss it with them now so they have plenty of time to put up the fence ("If you guys don't have a fence up by the time he's X age, we won't be able to visit")

I may be confused but I'm not sure that I have a couple of years to wait. I figured it would be best to have something in place by the time he started crawling? I want to be able to actually rest when I go see them, not be constantly worried. The room that he naps in (on the bed) has 3 separate entrances to the pool (none with locks). I fear that he will wake up, crawl off the bed and try to go into the pool. If we are in the kitchen or living room (common) we would not be able to see this happening.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
Also, who's in charge in their town of enforcing the pool safety laws? Could you make an anonymous report? Because I would worry less about your son (who I'm sure you have an eagle eye on!) than random unsupervised kids, and it sounds like this would warrant a report to whatever official is in charge of that.

This is a great idea! I too worry about their neighbors. Don't even get me started on the "supervision" that one neighbor gives their 2-3 year old. I have seen him sneak out, crawl into an unlocked car and then lock himself inside. Plus once I went for a walk and came back to him jumping on their living room couch! I worry so much for his safety, not just pool wise, unfortunately.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russsk* 
Have you considered swimming lessons so your DS can flip himself over and float should he fall in? It's not a solution, of course, but it could give you a little more peace of mind.

Yup, we are going to sign up within the next few weeks! This is our backyard so he will need to learn how to swim, and fast









I want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. Even though we may not all agree (what boring place this would be if we did) I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I know that everyone here is a busy mom so I am very grateful for taking time to respond.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 

I may be confused but I'm not sure that I have a couple of years to wait. I figured it would be best to have something in place by the time he started crawling? I want to be able to actually rest when I go see them, not be constantly worried. The room that he naps in (on the bed) has 3 separate entrances to the pool (none with locks). I fear that he will wake up, crawl off the bed and try to go into the pool. If we are in the kitchen or living room (common) we would not be able to see this happening.

I know there are some kids who would be safe for a couple more years, but I've met enough baby ninjas that wouldn't visit your FIL unless there were some pretty drastic changes to his pool AND his safety attitude. Even if he reluctantly installed safety measures around the pool I couldn't trust someone like him because I would always wonder what he was hiding from me in order to avoid being hassled.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Even if he reluctantly installed safety measures around the pool I couldn't trust someone like him because I would always wonder what he was hiding from me in order to avoid being hassled.

You hit the nail directly on the head. If it hassles him, he won't do it. No matter what! And if he has the inclination to do something, he does it irregardless of anything anyone says. So far he has attempted to give my son wine, beer, mashed potatoes, and ham; He has gotten upset with me when I said not to let him hold a knife (wtbeep?). The really funny part is when CPSC had the sling warning he made sure to send me an email about it.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
I may be confused but I'm not sure that I have a couple of years to wait. I figured it would be best to have something in place by the time he started crawling? I want to be able to actually rest when I go see them, not be constantly worried. The room that he naps in (on the bed) has 3 separate entrances to the pool (none with locks). I fear that he will wake up, crawl off the bed and try to go into the pool. If we are in the kitchen or living room (common) we would not be able to see this happening.

Okay NOW I think I understand!!! I'm sorry but I was envisioning a totally different scenario!! When we visit my in-laws DS sleeps on my lap. He is incredibly clingy so he is almost always in my arms or at my feet. I cannot envision ever relaxing when we visit them







Given the situation you just described I WOULD be concerned... I don't think it's LIKELY that your DS will be a little Houdini but it sure is possible. I would not let him sleep alone in there until they put up locks & a fence. And I would not let him visit at all if they don't put up a fence & you aren't going to be watching him 24/7.

And yes, definitely consider filing a report on them!!!


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
Okay NOW I think I understand!!! I'm sorry but I was envisioning a totally different scenario!! When we visit my in-laws DS sleeps on my lap. He is incredibly clingy so he is almost always in my arms or at my feet. I cannot envision ever relaxing when we visit them







Given the situation you just described I WOULD be concerned... I don't think it's LIKELY that your DS will be a little Houdini but it sure is possible. I would not let him sleep alone in there until they put up locks & a fence. And I would not let him visit at all if they don't put up a fence & you aren't going to be watching him 24/7.

And yes, definitely consider filing a report on them!!!









It's ok! I wish my ds could just sleep in arms while we were visiting. I wouldn't worry so much! I had my son asleep on easter sunday in my wrap (a normal occurrence elsewhere) but because my fil "doesn't believe in sleeping babies" he kept waking him up. I was forced to go put him down in the other room. I rigged up a video monitor with two phones so at least I could be see my ds.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
Ha ha I might have to do this. Because yup he stinks up my own house by smoking in my open doorway.

I appear to be the only harda$$ on this topic. LOL! I would have set down firm ground rules (which would be "there is to be no smoking on our property, anywhere, at any time") and stuck to it. Not in the house. Not in the doorway. Not in the driveway. Not in the backyard. NOWHERE. End of story. Period. You don't like it? Go home. If he can't visit for a couple hours without a cigarette, that's not my problem.

I take this issue *very* seriously because ds has health issues (now diagnosed as Respiratory Airway Disease). He got croup and respiratory infections so many times as a baby (starting at 2 months old)







Why? His doctor (at the time) believes it was because he was taken into a smoky house (to visit his bio-dad). His doctor said people needed to stop smoking when ds was in the house. They didn't (I was there the whole visit so I know who lit up and when). After numerous bouts of croup and other respiratory infections I said NO MORE and refused to bring him to that house anymore. My ex ended up taking me to court and trying to convince a judge that it wasn't harmful to ds (despite notes from his dr stating the opposite). The judge put out an order that ds isn't to be in any house/car/etc that has EVER been smoked in.

Once you watch your child struggle to breathe, one takes some pretty bold actions. I will never ever again let any child of mine around smoke or smoke filled homes/cars/etc. We do not go to any houses where people smoke in it. We do not ever ride in a car where people have smoked. We don't eat at restaurants where smoking is allowed. I only know one person who smokes who visits us, and he's never smoked before visiting us or during a visit. He would never put my son in harms way like that.

Ex and his family still smoke so, needless to say, ds doesn't see them often (and when he does it's always in public places- library, park, mcdonalds, etc). (I will add that there are many many other reasons ds doesn't see his bio-dad, the smoking is the least of the concerns with that)


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
You know, I wouldn't go for the whole confrontation thing. Just whenever they invite you to visit, say, Have you fixed your pool? No? Then we can't come, sorry!

When they visit you, fix your FIL a comfy chair in the back garden, away from the door and tell him that's the only place he can smoke and the house door must be closed. Shoo him back to it if he moves and don't take any of his crap. Just repeat: We don't want smoke in the house. Your smoke is getting in the house, I'm going to close the door now, etc.

This.

I'm wondering if some of the differences of opinion here are because some of us live in areas where pools aren't very common? I live in CA and it seems like 2 out of every 3 people here has a pool and everyone takes pool safety really seriously.

I don't think supervision is enough when it comes to pools. There are just some kids that you can't supervise enough and one of them lives at my house. In fact DH has started referring to her as a ninja. When you have other kids to look after or the confusion of a big family gathering, it's easy to quickly lose track no matter how careful you are. The pool would be an absolute deal-breaker for visiting their house for me.

As for the smoking. . . I agree, ask him to wash his hands. But it's going overboard to ask him to change his clothes. And no way would I allow it anywhere near my house. In the backyard, away from the doors, perhaps, as long as the butts are cleaned up afterward. I have relatives who smoke, and they actually go clear out to the sidewalk, far away from the house to smoke. It's common courtesy.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russsk* 
Have you considered swimming lessons so your DS can flip himself over and float should he fall in? It's not a solution, of course, but it could give you a little more peace of mind.

Those lessons give a false sense of security. I wouldn't teach my kid to swim and expect that to give me more peace of mind. Kids still need the same amount of supervision after taking these lessons.

I'm with you on the pool safety, illumini. When we visit my inlaws I have to follow my child around very closely because they have an inground pool and we often eat out there near it. It is not a relaxing time at all.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

To the OP: Hugs to you momma. This is hard.

Yes, it's their house, but if they want to invite children over they must make the pool safe.

I completely understand wanting to preserve your baby's relationship with his grandparents, and that's great. However, your FIL constant disregard for your wishes is a huge red flag that more problems are ahead. You need to remain assertive about your son's needs. His attitude seems inappropriate. Wanting to take the baby on a big trip _without_ you and then acting like it's no big deal?! You have to hide your baby in another room just for him to get some sleep because grandpa keeps waking him up? WTH? Tried to give the baby alcohol? That's just weird.

That biting dog is going to be a huge problem when FIL thinks it's ok to dangle the baby in front of Fido to "play." it scares me to think about.

Talk to your dh and make sure he agrees, because you'll need him to stand up to his parents, too. You don't have to be mean or anything, a simple "WE feel our house is safer/more convenient/easier on ds/etc." can suffice. I don't think I would go into all the reasons why, because they will just try to justify/defend why it's ok for the baby to come over anyway, and it'll just be a pain.

Decide with your dh what the plan is and then stick to it. Your FIL will learn that he cannot do whatever the h3ll he wants with your ds.

Good luck!


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

So I just typed up a quick rough draft of the letter I want to send. I wanted to be brief and to the point. How does it sound?

Hi,
As you are surely aware Declan will be starting to become mobile soon. *Of course that means we will be doing all that fun baby proofing that goes hand and hand with mobility. * Shane and I have researched all sorts of baby proofing ideas, techniques and products. One thing we read about at length was pool safety. We have throughly discussed it and both came to the conclusion that pool safety is non negotiable. We have decided that any home that Declan visits at this time must have an ASTM compliant net or fence up if they have a pool. *If for any reason this isn't possible we will be unable to visit that home until he is past that super dangerous first 4-5 years. *I'm know Declan's safety is everyone's utmost concern and I appreciate your time on this matter.

Lauren**


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

It sounds concise & to the point (though maybe a little formal) -- I hope they are accomodating!


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

I like it a lot.


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## illumini (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
It sounds concise & to the point (though maybe a little formal) -- I hope they are accomodating!

He he. Yeah normally I try to fight my tendencies to write formally. This time though I did not want him to be able to twist what I said. He's the master of making things not apply to him.


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## aidanraynesmom (Jun 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Mko* 
Those lessons give a false sense of security. I wouldn't teach my kid to swim and expect that to give me more peace of mind. Kids still need the same amount of supervision after taking these lessons.


Yes! They look like a good idea, but I would never do it. Nothing like mama knowing where lo is at all times.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
To the OP: Hugs to you momma. This is hard.

Yes, it's their house, but if they want to invite children over they must make the pool safe.

I completely understand wanting to preserve your baby's relationship with his grandparents, and that's great. However, your FIL constant disregard for your wishes is a huge red flag that more problems are ahead. You need to remain assertive about your son's needs. His attitude seems inappropriate. Wanting to take the baby on a big trip _without_ you and then acting like it's no big deal?! You have to hide your baby in another room just for him to get some sleep because grandpa keeps waking him up? WTH? Tried to give the baby alcohol? That's just weird.

That biting dog is going to be a huge problem when FIL thinks it's ok to dangle the baby in front of Fido to "play." it scares me to think about.

Talk to your dh and make sure he agrees, because you'll need him to stand up to his parents, too. You don't have to be mean or anything, a simple "WE feel our house is safer/more convenient/easier on ds/etc." can suffice. I don't think I would go into all the reasons why, because they will just try to justify/defend why it's ok for the baby to come over anyway, and it'll just be a pain.

Decide with your dh what the plan is and then stick to it. Your FIL will learn that he cannot do whatever the h3ll he wants with your ds.

Good luck!

YES!!

Wow, you know, to me grandparenting is not a blood right. My in-laws refuse to put away dangerous things, smoke around and feed ds all sorts of crap. So they've seen him twice in his 5 years. (Not that I had to fight that one too hard, they'd rather visit their time share than to make time for us. Ok by me though!)

But all the things you've mentioned sound scary to me. I just don't understand why so many people fight so hard with their inlaws when it comes to safety issues. Why would anyone want their child to have a relationship with people who obviously could care less about their well being? If its important to you that these people be a part of your dc's life, I would tell them exactly what needs to happen. They can visit at your home, and if he can't go a couple of hours without smoking then he's clearly chosen that over a relationship with your child.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I am shocked at how many have given in on the smoking issue.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
On the smoking, I feel your pain, but I'd back down.







My mom smokes. Drives me nuts. I'd love for her to quit. But she's not gonna. She LOVES (adores, loves, loves, loves, *would do anything for*) my kids. When dd was tiny I tried to do the handwashing thing and it just didn't happen. She is respectful enough to not smoke with dd *right there* but she does smoke outside while dd and ds are outside with her. No way could I ever get her to change clothes- I don't think that's a reasonable request.

She'll "do anything" for them but won't wash her hands of a toxic substance before touching them?

This is not directed towards you alegna, but I'm surprised so many people don't see smoke exposure as the long term health threat it is. I've even heard that 3rd hand smoke can be *more* dangrous than 2nd hand smoke in certain situations. To me, washing your hands after touching POISON but before touching a baby/child is the very minimum. If someone steped outside to fertilize and came back in planning on rubbing their hands all over your child would you think it was unreasonable for them to wash first?

With infants, I don't think that asking for a clothing change is out of the way at all. With older children I can understand not demanding it (they probably won't be held against the clothes at least).


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aidanraynesmom* 
But all the things you've mentioned sound scary to me. I just don't understand why so many people fight so hard with their inlaws when it comes to safety issues. Why would anyone want their child to have a relationship with people who obviously could care less about their well being? If its important to you that these people be a part of your dc's life, I would tell them exactly what needs to happen. They can visit at your home, and if he can't go a couple of hours without smoking then he's clearly chosen that over a relationship with your child.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I am shocked at how many have given in on the smoking issue.

ITA

The smell & toxins of smoke linger. Smoking in a doorway just doesn't do it. I don't understand people's willingness to say that others have the right to smoke even in OTHER's homes. That not spilling poison over OTHER people's homes is too much to ask. Plus, of course, the horrible example it sets for your child, not only of ignoring other peoples needs (because an infants need for clean air is a lot more important, imo, than an adults' "need" for constantly smoking) but the smoking itself.

Maybe I'm just in a bubble


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## aidanraynesmom (Jun 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
She'll "do anything" for them but won't wash her hands of a toxic substance before touching them?


IME, its a conditional "do anything". Like as long as it suits their own needs. But I'm maybe a little jaded with such horrid inlaws. And for that reason, my son could not pick them out of a line up. To some that seems a tragedy and I just don't get why.

My parents are great about most things. (Bfing, even until 3, was a non-issue, we got very little unsolicited advice and when we did a little educating not only stopped it but changed their minds). These are the people my child would actually choose to live with over us they're so close. They've shown me that he is more important than their own wants, and that when I'm not around they'll parent him the way I wish. (And they know that he's old enough to tell on them when they don't. However tattling on Poo-pah for giving him Golden Grahams gets him no more Golden Grahams







)

For me, anything less than that is unacceptable if you want to be a part of my child's life. Let me preface this with *this is not directed toward anyone specifically, well except BIL and SIL







* but I seriously don't see how 2nd and 3rd hand smoke can be defended so heavily. THAT'S YOUR KID!! I think sometimes people can have a hard time offending their parents (or inlaws and I REALLY don't get that!) even if its for their kids. I get loving your parents, and wanting to keep them happy, but at the detriment of your child? To me, nothing is unacceptable to ask when ITS YOUR KID. I would never ask someone to change their habits in their own home, I just wouldn't go! and then when they ask tell them why! If they change, great! If not, they're showing you just how important that relationship is.

Ugh, just thought I'd share this little MIL horror story, not that is imminent bc someone's IL's smoke, just to show you how horrible she is. She was smoking outside in the front of DH's Grandmother's mobile home. DS was a toddler and was trying to manage the concrete steps. I was just too short of being able to grab him when he fell but she was *plenty* close. So why did he end up with a black eye? She didn't want to throw down her cigarette to grab him. That was that last time we've seen anyone in that family. And it will be the last time.


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## aidanraynesmom (Jun 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
because my fil "doesn't believe in sleeping babies" he kept waking him up

What does that even mean?! I'm assuming he means that when he's there his job is to make your fil happy and he can't do that while he's, you know, being a baby!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
So far he has attempted to give my son wine, beer, mashed potatoes, and ham; He has gotten upset with me when I said not to let him hold a knife

How did your DH make it to adulthood?! It would have taken one -ONE- of those incidents for me to cut then out completely. There is no way in HELL these people are going to be anything but a detriment to your child. My God! How is that even a question? I'm sorry but your fil sounds like someone I would want to run far away from! and if the mil puts up with him, even if she disagrees, she'll do what he wishes when in doubt.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

OP, both the pool and the smoking would be absolute deal breakers for me.

For the pool, maybe you could take your own baby proofing when you visit. Like door latches and baby gates for the doors ds would have access to.

As far as the smoking, I wouldn't budge on this issue at all, not AT ALL. I have 2 children with Reactive Airway Disease. Any exposure to smoke, whether fresh or left over could be a major health ordeal for my kids. Smoke permeates wood, fabric and really any other porous surface. You can't just get rid of it by airing a house out before a visit (which is what my ILs believed before our doctor set them straight).

I wonder if your email would be better received coming from your dh? I say this because my ILs would be much more offended with something like this coming from an "outsider".


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aidanraynesmom* 

But all the things you've mentioned sound scary to me. I just don't understand why so many people fight so hard with their inlaws when it comes to safety issues. Why would anyone want their child to have a relationship with people who obviously could care less about their well being? If its important to you that these people be a part of your dc's life, I would tell them exactly what needs to happen. They can visit at your home, and if he can't go a couple of hours without smoking then he's clearly chosen that over a relationship with your child.

In our case it's my mother who smokes. She's truly addicted. I am not willing to sacrifice their relationship with her (AND my father) because of smoking. The love and relationships they get are worth far more than 3rd hand smoke.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
She'll "do anything" for them but won't wash her hands of a toxic substance before touching them?

This is not directed towards you alegna, but I'm surprised so many people don't see smoke exposure as the long term health threat it is. I've even heard that 3rd hand smoke can be *more* dangrous than 2nd hand smoke in certain situations. To me, washing your hands after touching POISON but before touching a baby/child is the very minimum. If someone steped outside to fertilize and came back in planning on rubbing their hands all over your child would you think it was unreasonable for them to wash first?

With infants, I don't think that asking for a clothing change is out of the way at all. With older children I can understand not demanding it (they probably won't be held against the clothes at least).


Right. It's my mom. She has her issues (don't we all?) and yeah, if I pushed it and made it an issue it would be a HUGE issue.

I make sure my kids don't put their hands in their mouths after handling anything that might be smoke-nasty (and in that infant state that meant wiping their hands a lot when we're over there...)

But no, I'm not going to sacrifice their relationship with two doting grandparents who adore them over this issue.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Further thoughts:

There are things mentioned here I wouldn't tolerate- the FIL who won't let baby sleep- don't cross me on a sleeping baby







BUT I don't keep things quiet for my babies to sleep so he would have to actually say he was trying to wake the baby or make it obvious, not just make noise during the nap- ya know?

And on pool safety- in situations that I don't feel are 100% safe (And we find ourselves in tons of them- friends' houses, stores, outside, etc) I watch my kids 100% when they're at that age. I don't let my guard down. I don't put them down to sleep in the other room. I don't let anyone else be "in charge" of them in those situations that I don't trust 100%.

We do have some extended family we choose to limit time with for a number of reasons... so I'm not against cutting out family.

A pool is not a snake. It sits there. As long as your eyes are on your kid, they're safe. Is it tiresome to keep your eyes on your kid 100%? Heck yeah. But I figure it's my job. That may mean I limit my time where I have to do that, but I wouldn't refuse to see people just because they had an unsecured pool.

If I had a child who was impacted (breathing issues etc) by smoke, heck yeah I'd be rabid about it. But when my kids are not really impacted by it beyond the theoretical health risks of being exposed... I'm willing to do damage control (cleaning up, wiping down, etc) and allow them to have a relationship rather than instigating WWIII

If there's other baggage, then there's other baggage. I can easily see that being part of a larger picture of disrespect that was unacceptable.

But to say that either of those things, in and of themselves, is so awful as to discontinue a grandparent relationship seems extreme to me.

-Angela


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm not going to argue that smoking is bad & that second- & third-hand smoke are very dangerous & should be avoided. But I am curious if anyone has any studies on limited exposure to third-hand smoke? Most of what I've found is related to freuqent exposure & I know there is no safe level of exposure but for a healthy child, is there a study showing short- & long-term effects of a single exposure to third-hand smoke? I'm just curious.

We see the in-laws once a month for a few hours. MIL does not smoke near DS and she rarely holds him (if at all) but there is certainly third-hand smoke in their house (it always makes me cough







and sleepy). I am surprised that so many people would cut off all relations with grandparents though... My MIL does love DS very very much, and she is not a bad person because she smokes. Smoking is addictive and she has tried many times to quit (and I'm not talking about half-hearted efforts, she really really tries). If we saw them daily or weekly I guess it would be more of a concern though. We do try to get together at our house instead, or meet somewhere, but occasionally we end up at their house. Although I'm not denying the third-hand smoke is dangerous, I'm sure there are many other carcinogens that my DS is incidentally exposed to just by living in this overly polluted country, so is it really worth sacrificing a relationship with grandma over this?


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## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illumini* 
I have to say I am very surprised that I seem to be the only one who gives a hoot about pool safety. I'm not exactly going to be confrontational with him but I will be direct. I want to give him a chance to have a relationship with his grandson so instead of saying "no pool fix, no visit" I would rather give them the opportunity to fix the pool. Like I said above I'm doing this now because mobility is around the corner.

Let me try to put my fear into numbers. In Florida for children 0-4 it is the number 1 killer (drowning). This is a quote from the (Florida) Injury and Drowning Prevention Handouts: "Annually enough children to fill four preschool classrooms do not live to see their 5th birthday." If one of the things that people can do to save 4 PRESCHOOL CLASSES OF CHILDREN is put up a stinking fence, then why wouldn't they? CPSC recommends "The key to preventing these tragedies is to have layers of protection. This includes placing barriers around your pool to prevent access, using pool alarms, closely supervising your child and being prepared in case of an emergency."

"Several systematic reviews have concluded that pool fencing is the best strategy for reducing the risk of young children drowning in domestic swimming pools...Studies show that caregiver factors and supervision are not enough to prevent drowning." That was from the Manitoba Canada handout Preventing Drowning in Manitoba.

What I find interesting ( and I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way. I'm def not attacking anyone. Risk Assessment is very personal and YMMV) is that motor vehicle accidents kill less children 0-4 in Florida than drowning. Now if I had said that my father in law wanted to drive around without my son in a car seat everyone here would be up in arms. Most likely saying that its illegal. Well my fil's pool is just as deadly and just as illegal.









I haven't read all the pposters, however, this struck a cord with me. I live in AZ and absolutely agree with you on this. It is heartbreaking to hear the stories on the news (last summer a few weeks, every other day it was a story of a drowning) and how adults were watching, but the child still ended up in the pool! Fire Depts have campaigns every single year about how serious an issue this is to really all of us. We've had a few cases of toddlers getting out doggy doors and drowning, or somehow getting out and into the neighbors ungated pool, or even getting through a faulty (or unlocked) gate and drowning. It is a law here too and it's enforced, at least in my city. So yes, I understand where you're coming from and think if it's just a few holes in the cement that's causing a concern - they should get the fence.

I do agree that there does need to be several layers of barriers and there's no substitute for a parent watching, but even with only one child, I sometimes have a had time watching him 100% of the time and especially if I'm having a conversation with someone. Ds always wants to be on the move


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## dannic (Jun 14, 2005)

Yup on the pools. I live in a big pool state and there was a story in the news about a mom/daughter who took a nap together. 3 yr old daughter woke up before mom, somehow managed to UNLOCK a locked window, climb over a pool fence and drown. It happens. And way too often here, even with all the required precautions.

I would not end a relationship over it, but I wouldn't visit at their house, either. I have a dd who can get out of anything. I am an attentive mama, but all it takes is one accidental slip (and let's face it, it's human nature to lose focus occasionally) and that child is gone.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
If I had a child who was impacted (breathing issues etc) by smoke, heck yeah I'd be rabid about it. But when my kids are not really impacted by it beyond the theoretical health risks of being exposed... I'm willing to do damage control (cleaning up, wiping down, etc) and allow them to have a relationship rather than instigating WWIII

And when your child is impacted later on down the road because of being exposed to it? You will choose to sacrifice your childs health for your parents "right" to see their grandchildren?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
I'm not going to argue that smoking is bad & that second- & third-hand smoke are very dangerous & should be avoided. But I am curious if anyone has any studies on limited exposure to third-hand smoke? Most of what I've found is related to freuqent exposure & I know there is no safe level of exposure but for a healthy child, is there a study showing short- & long-term effects of a single exposure to third-hand smoke? I'm just curious.

Let me see what I can find. All my links are on my computer that had a hard drive crash so I'll have to see what I can find...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
And when your child is impacted later on down the road because of being exposed to it? You will choose to sacrifice your childs health for your parents "right" to see their grandchildren?


My mom always smokes outside- I wouldn't tolerate it inside with my kids. She doesn't smoke in her house either- ever. The exposure that my kids have are only to the chemicals left on her. Ideal? No. But in the whole scheme of things, highly unlikely to be seriously detrimental.

I've not seen any research that shows a substantial risk from this sort of exposure. I'd be interested to see anything on the subject.

-Angela


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I wouldn't allow my children to visit a home that had an unsecured pool.

It can take less than a minute for a child to die, less time than it can take to go to the bathroom. It just isn't safe.


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