# Dispelling the "perfect birth theory"



## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

After having my 17MO lately I've been on a "One born every minute" "baby story" don't know the name of it on Discover health about birth? kick. In all of these and including myself (emergency C-section) all ask for the same thing drug free natural birth. That is what we are trained to believe that we have to have. After watching so many of these show the "perfect birth" theory just doesn't exist. I watched my SIL and friends despair over having a c-section. They all felt robbed of what??? Seriously what?? We are led to believe that c-sections are evil and that they are done 99 percent of the time because we have sadistic dr's that are knife happy. So not true a doctor and a midwife are there for the baby. Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life. Rather then push "perfect birth" push your baby will come out the way that suits him/her best.


----------



## cat13 (Dec 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lulu0910*
> 
> After having my 17MO lately I've been on a "One born every minute" "baby story" don't know the name of it on Discover health about birth? kick. In all of these and including myself (emergency C-section) all ask for the same thing drug free natural birth. That is what we are trained to believe that we have to have. After watching so many of these show the "perfect birth" theory just doesn't exist. I watched my SIL and friends despair over having a c-section. They all felt robbed of what??? Seriously what?? We are led to believe that c-sections are evil and that they are done 99 percent of the time because we have sadistic dr's that are knife happy. So not true a doctor and a midwife are there for the baby. Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life. Rather then push "perfect birth" push your baby will come out the way that suits him/her best.


I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.

I do, however, disagree with the statement, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life." While this may be true to you (and if it is, that's wonderful!), it is not the truth for so many women who have had c-sections.


----------



## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

Cat 13

Quote:


> I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.
> 
> I do, however, disagree with the statement, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life." While this may be true to you (and if it is, that's wonderful!), it is not the truth for so many women who have had c-sections.


I know it's not true for many but it shouldn't have to be that way. C-section is not the end of the world or worse seen as a failure. Delivery shouldn't be a focus your newborn baby should be. It's a joyous event bringing a baby into this world regardless of how it happens.


----------



## Mama4life14 (Mar 17, 2011)

I believe in pushing to get the natural delivery that you want. It doesn't have to be drug-free, but C-sections just have so many complications and risks that could come up. Plus recovery time is much worse. (So I hear) So unless it is life threatening, I see no problem in avoiding it at all costs.
There are times when a c-section is necessary so I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever be done. But the way that it was created to be is what I feel is safest. And from my personal experience from a natural drug-free labor, I enjoyed every minute. It was painful, but it was pain with a purpose. Not to mention, there's nothing like the feeling of "I can conquer the world" after accomplishing the huge task!

So I don't blame woman for wanting a natural birth!

However I do agree that baby is very important! Of course if there's a chance of them being harmed, and a c-section is the only way, then it should be done.


----------



## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

Mamaforlife14

Can't have your cake and eat it too!

Quote:


> I disagree, as a christian, I firmly believe in pushing to get the delivery the way that God made it to happen!


Quote:


> There are times when a c-section is necessary so I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever be done.


Well which one is it? 
In your words then since I didn't deliver my baby naturally (emergency C-section) then I should have died along with my baby. Since God only wills natural childbirth? I don't know of which religion you speak of. But as a CATHOLIC God would never will that! He gave us incredible minds to create unimaginable things. Modern medicine that saved so many lives including my baby and myself. Next time you post leave religion out of this since I don't subscribe to fanaticism.


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Jeesh.

The OP is not blaming women for wanting a natural birth or stating that a C-section is the ideal way to bring a baby into the world. She is not saying that women who have experienced birth trauma should deny that and the opportunity to heal.

It seems she's seeking support - assurance that it's okay to be at peace with a birth that wasn't up to "ideal" standards. She cannot redo her birth, and through it she fought to bring her amazing child into this world. For that, she should feel SO PROUD.

Like all mothers doing their best with what they have, she deserves to be at peace and to truly cherish her birth for its ultimate success - her child. Not all mothers are able to feel this way about surgical births, and we should absolutely support those who can in an effort to slow the perpetuation of struggle.

I think it's amazing, Lulu, that you are able to see your birth for the gorgeous event that it was in the life of you and your child.

Natural birth is amazing and, well - natural. But, in our society, it's a privilege that is not afforded to every woman who would seek one, if she even knew to seek it. Elements of intersectional privilege/oppression, including class, race, access to education, access to relatable support, physical/emotional (dis-)ability, access to good healthcare, mental health, family pressures/influence and circumstance all factor into accessibility to natural/medicated/surgical birth.

Again, every mother doing their best deserves to be at peace. Mothers deserve to be at peace. Their children deserve mothers at peace. Let's not perpetuate trauma for women who are healing or feel that they have healed.


----------



## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

Habitat--- What you wrote is exactly what I was thinking! Thank you for your very dear and beautiful words! Also helping me to spread the word that ALL births are to be cherished!

Quote:


> It's okay to be at peace with a birth that wasn't up to "ideal" standards that doesn't exist.


Quote:


> Every mother doing their best deserves to be at peace. Mothers deserve to be at peace. Their children deserve mothers at peace. Let's not perpetuate trauma for women who are healing or feel that they have healed.


I seriously could not have written that any better! Thank you!

For the record I have absolutely no regrets! I would do it the same way regardless because I know the outcome. A healthy precious son and the honor and privilege to be his mother.


----------



## Mama4life14 (Mar 17, 2011)

Whoa whoa whoa!! In no way was I saying that you should have "died along with your baby" I'm saying that woman shouldn't be put in a category for wanting a natural birth.. You said yourself that you wanted a natural birth as well.

I'm glad that God saved you and your baby with the much needed c-section! I was merely stating that sometimes it is a big deal to someone who was looking forward to a natural birth and ended up with a c-section.

Please do not take it the wrong way. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk


----------



## Mama4life14 (Mar 17, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Like all mothers doing their best with what they have, she deserves to be at peace and to truly cherish her birth for its ultimate success - her child. Not all mothers are able to feel this way about surgical births, and we should absolutely support those who can in an effort to slow the perpetuation of struggle.
> 
> I think it's amazing, Lulu, that you are able to see your birth for the gorgeous event that it was in the life of you and your child.


I totally agree with what was said here. I'm sorry that I mis-interpreted what was being said. Thank you Habtitat for putting it in a way that is much more understandable to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lulu0910*
> 
> For the record I have absolutely no regrets! I would do it the same way regardless because I know the outcome. A healthy precious son and the honor and privilege to be his mother.


This is true. I know I would feel the same way if I had to end up having a c-section. All that would have mattered is the baby in my arms. I apoligize for posting immaturely and without thought.


----------



## LadyJade (Jul 20, 2010)

Lulu! I couldn't agree more!

I attempted a home water birth. After 21 hours and no progress and midwives trying everything, we transferred. Shortly after that, there were some dangerous decels and I had an emergency c-section and a perfectly healthy baby boy. And I ended up with some very serious PPD coping with the aftermath of the birth. All of the "normal" people in my life were so happy for me - a gorgeous, healthy little boy! But I was in tears all the time mourning my lost home birth and the "perfect birth" I had planned.

Took me months to shake it off and realize I had been duped and it was only all these expectations and promises that if I just believed and prepared and took these vitamins and stuck enough EPO up my hoo hah that birth for me would be peaceful and natural and wonderful. Lots of women are lucky enough to get that, but that's all they are: lucky.

What makes ME lucky is having a healthy little boy, when positioning myself to give birth 15 minutes away from emergency medical facilities, should they be needed at a moment's notice, could have so easily taken BOTH my perfect birth and my perfect baby.

I see you're new to this site. I hope you last longer than I did.


----------



## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I was in 18 hours of horrible pain before I agreed to epidural. I was so deranged from pain that I was hallucination. I was in a hospital where doctor and nurse were supportive of natural childbirth and did not push anything on anyone

I never thought it would happen to me. I swallowed the Kool Aid. I was sure that with year of yoga and meditation experience as well as my acupressure therapist doula by my side I would make it without any meds. My labor was a the biggest lesson in humility and understand that control is illusion. That one can plan and prepare but life has other plans.

I was stuck and tired . It was the kind of pain that meditation, position change and all the unicorns and rainbows in the world could not help.

I had an epidural, took a nap and pushed my 8.6 lb baby in 30 amazing minutes. Thanks to the skills of my amazing OB I did not not have a single tear.

All went well, right?

I was so depressed for 2 weeks. I felt like failure. Like I did not achieve what a strong woman was supposed to achieve, the crown glory of natural childbirth. O felt traumatized. I know,,,,I smile now. Tramautized?

Then, I looked at my baby. My happy baby. Then I thought "Fuck that, this is just biological function. All went well. I got lucky. For change, something went well with my body. What is wrong with pain control? Nothing. Nothing is wrong. I have pain control for every other pain in my body I have been brains washed by biological essentialists. What and how I do with my vagina has nothing to do with my strength as woman. I am proud of my work, my education. I am alive and so is my my baby"

Pain has no intrinsic value. Not all pain is avoidable....but if there is remedy for pain it is still not to use it. Pain is knows to have negative effect on the body. To proclaim that labor pain is different is ingenuous. Form the dawn of time humans look for pain relief in pain.

And just like that I no longer felt traumatized or depressed.

With second baby I arrive to the hospital and requests epidural and pitocin. 12 hours labor. 15 min pushing. 9 lbs baby. Amazingly, with all those interventions I actually felt empowered And I was not depressed.

My second birth, was a perfect one to me. I came without fear of evil interventions. I felt fine if I needed a c-section. I had a great time.

The only type of perfect birth to me is the one that end with healthy mom and baby. The rest is cherry on top. The rest is the privilege of First World spoiled citizens.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Lulu0910, welcome to MDC! There is a Cesarean forum where you might find some conversations worth joining.

I am another one who would love to see the myth of the "perfect birth" overthrown. There is not one type of birth that is perfect for everyone. An unmedicated vaginal birth is ideal for some, but for others it can be traumatic. In some cases, interventions are truly necessary and essential for a better experience for both baby and mother. And I agree completely with the PP who mentioned that we have only the illusion of control over birth. Sometimes that illusion stays intact because things seem to go so perfectly and according to plan. But there are those of us for whom the illusion is forever shattered, when our births do not follow the plan and things do not turn out the way we expected.

I also wish that we could learn to provide better support for moms who experience birth trauma, regardless of what causes that trauma. It is not helpful to assume that a woman must be traumatized by her c-section. It is not helpful to assume that a woman who had an intervention-free vaginal birth couldn't possibly be traumatized by her experience. It is helpful to no one to assume that birth trauma doesn't exist as long as a living baby results from the birth. It is just as unhelpful to assume that women who experience birth trauma must suffer for the rest of their lives, or to discount the reality of resilience and healing.

Here's what I'd like: a world that has room for many stories about birth, where many experiences can be honored and celebrated, where women are believed to be the experts of their own experiences and have tools to support them through those experiences. A world where birth is acknowledged to be the wild, untamable mystery that it is...a mystery that touches each of us in a different way. I'd like to see a world where we quit trying to fit birth into a neat, tidy, happy box.


----------



## cat13 (Dec 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> Lulu0910, welcome to MDC! There is a Cesarean forum where you might find some conversations worth joining.
> 
> ...


You said this so beautifully!


----------



## angelarose1 (Jun 19, 2009)

I think the bigger picture here is not that there isn't an ideal way to birth, agreeing with that seems an attempt at patronizing those who had experiences different from the ideal. Ideally, a relatively quick, painless, vaginal birth with no complications is ideal. The issue really is that there are women who don't cope well with the fact that life is not always ideal and not a one of us is perfect, nor are we as in control as we think we are. Realizing that actually brings the most peace because you are able to accept reality as it is and be grateful rather than focusing on the lack of perfection. I really believe that the disappointment some women may feel because they didn't have the perfect birth experience is an indicator of a deeper issue not necessarily related to their birthing expectations at all.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *angelarose1* 

I think the bigger picture here is not that there isn't an ideal way to birth, agreeing with that seems an attempt at patronizing those who had experiences different from the ideal. Ideally, a relatively quick, painless, vaginal birth with no complications is ideal.
That is one way of defining an ideal birth. Another way is to say that an ideal birth is one at which the mother is fully supported in her experience, treated with dignity and respect, and given every opportunity to guide her experience in the way that feels right for her, when circumstances allow. That way of looking at "ideal" doesn't define a time frame or a level of pain or an exit method that must be ideal for everyone; rather, it makes room for many differing experiences that share the ideal of being supportive of the mother. In that framework for "ideal" there would be room for women who have long, difficult, painful births to still feel very good about their experience; women who choose interventions (yes, even c-sections) would also have room to feel that their birth was "ideal." It's not so much about the physical aspects of birth, but how they are framed.
The issue really is that there are women who don't cope well with the fact that life is not always ideal and not a one of us is perfect, nor are we as in control as we think we are. Realizing that actually brings the most peace because you are able to accept reality as it is and be grateful rather than focusing on the lack of perfection. I really believe that the disappointment some women may feel because they didn't have the perfect birth experience is an indicator of a deeper issue not necessarily related to their birthing expectations at all.


> I don't think there's one "issue" that causes women to feel disappointed in their birth. It is true that there are many things about birth that we can't control, but that doesn't mean that accepting reality, being grateful, and coming to a place a peace is right or best in every instance. If a woman was treated with disrespect or even brutality by hospital staff, and that treatment impacted her birth in a negative way, she may not have been in control of that situation, but recognizing as such isn't necessarily going to bring her "peace."


I guess I just always fall in the camp of looking at individual women and individual situations, rather than trying to come up with an ideal process (for giving birth or for recovering from one) that's going to work the same way for everyone.


----------



## BansheeTaco (Dec 2, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> Here's what I'd like: a world that has room for many stories about birth, where many experiences can be honored and celebrated, where women are believed to be the experts of their own experiences and have tools to support them through those experiences. A world where birth is acknowledged to be the wild, untamable mystery that it is...a mystery that touches each of us in a different way. I'd like to see a world where we quit trying to fit birth into a neat, tidy, happy box.


I love this statement! So beautifully put!

I hope it's okay that I'm joining this discussion.. I actually had an unmedicated, natural delivery. I have very fond, happy memories of my birth, but I in no way think that it was "a perfect birth". I had 3rd degree tearing, which is far from perfect or ideal in my book, although I still feel very blessed that my delivery was free from any other complications. I do however feel that the most perfect moment in my life was when I got to hold my baby and look into his eyes for the first time. That was sheer perfection for me. And I imagine that moment of perfection is similar for all women regardless of how that moment happens in the end. At least I very much hope and wish that for all women, because it truly does not matter in the end how the baby arrived, but just that they did arrive safely into loving arms.

I also wanted to say that I think there were 2 factors that contributed to my having a fairly successful, natural delivery. 1) Like LadyJade said, Luck. Pure Luck, and lots of it.  2) Education. I think this is generally something that almost anyone on the MDC forums has in their toolbox as well, because just being on these forums is a bit of an education itself.  I took a Bradley birthing class and the biggest thing that did for me was made me feel less fearful going into something I had absolutely no experience with. I felt like no matter what happened, I would at least have a good understanding of my options and what to expect so I could made educated choices as my birth progressed. I think any woman that has armed herself with knowledge before birth should feel accomplished simply because she was her own advocate and made informed choices.

I think as women, we should all support, uplift and celebrate each other more. And I think discussions like this are important so that more women can embrace the beauty of their unique birth story, no matter what the factors of that event were. And let's face it, birth is just naturally an imperfect thing.


----------



## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> That is one way of defining an ideal birth. Another way is to say that an ideal birth is one at which the mother is fully supported in her experience, treated with dignity and respect, and given every opportunity to guide her experience in the way that feels right for her, when circumstances allow. That way of looking at "ideal" doesn't define a time frame or a level of pain or an exit method that must be ideal for everyone; rather, it makes room for many differing experiences that share the ideal of being supportive of the mother. In that framework for "ideal" there would be room for women who have long, difficult, painful births to still feel very good about their experience; women who choose interventions (yes, even c-sections) would also have room to feel that their birth was "ideal." It's not so much about the physical aspects of birth, but how they are framed.


Agree wholeheartedly! Each woman should have all the information she needs on risks and benefits available to make the right decisions for her and to be fully supported whatever she chooses and not pressured by anyone to choose something she doesn't want. And if birth doesn't go the way the woman wanted, she should be able to mourn, make peace, etc. however she wants and needs to handle that. I got about as close to the birth I wanted as is possible, but there are still things I wasn't happy about because I was not always treated with respect or cared for appropriately and I had to work through dealing with that too.


----------



## angelarose1 (Jun 19, 2009)

My "ideal birth" statement is based on how the birth process usually occurs among non-human primates. Whether that is an appropriate basis is obviously debatable. All disappointment stems from unmet expectations. Many of the women experienceing disappointment had birth experiences that didn't meet their expectations, but that were positive in all the ways you mention. In which case I do believe that there is a common deeper "issue" at play.

From personal experience, one does feel disappointment, anger, sadness about suffering unneccessarily at the hands of someone else. But ultimately one must accept that the suffering happened and move forward. Moving forward doesn't necessarily mean pretending it never happened, but it means letting go of the negative feelings. One can work passionately against injustice without letting it engulf them, one can speak out against wrongdoing without brimming with rage and pain from personal experience. I feel it is in my best interest to do so, holding on to the negative emotions robs me of joy and health. Letting go doesn't happen overnight, but it has to happen eventually. Even though some people I have spoken to thought that I was upset because I was speaking passionately, I was calm and peaceful inside, there is still sadness but not hurt and regret.

Also, for my birth experience was uncomplicated and natural, but I found it to be extremely painful in every way. My labor lasted about 7 hours and was pretty intense the entire time. Relatively speaking that might not sound bad, but my expectations were that it wouldn't be very painful at all, it would be quicker, and that I wouldn't feel completely overwhelmed... again, not. at. all. what. happened There are so many viewpoints along the spectrum of the "perfect" birth but I couldn't possibly wrap my head around feeling any disappointment that my birth didn't fit my idea of "perfect" because nothing in my life is perfect. If it would have been perfect, I would probably be in complete awe and disbelief and waiting for the sky to fall


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *angelarose1*
> 
> My "ideal birth" statement is based on how the birth process usually occurs among non-human primates. Whether that is an appropriate basis is obviously debatable. All disappointment stems from unmet expectations. Many of the women experienceing disappointment had birth experiences that didn't meet their expectations, but that were positive in all the ways you mention. In which case I do believe that there is a common deeper "issue" at play.


OK, I get what you are saying. Disappointment is by definition the state of feeling bad because your expectations have not been met. But other than a woman needing to either re-set her expectations and/or re-frame her experience, I am not sure what deeper "issue" you believe is at play? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Thanks.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Eh, I did have "perfect births". I talk about birthing with a huge smile on my face even many years after. Yeah, I did have a midwife, I exercised, took Bradley classes and did the Brewer diet. And it is peaceful post-partum not to have any birth regrets or anger like so many of my friends had. But maybe I was just lucky.


----------



## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I actually have to dig deep to remember anything that was not satisifactory. Both were quite pleasant.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Eh, I did have "perfect births". I talk about birthing with a huge smile on my face even many years after. Yeah, I did have a midwife, I exercised, took Bradley classes and did the Brewer diet. And it is peaceful post-partum not to have any birth regrets or anger like so many of my friends had. But maybe I was just lucky.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I am genuinely pleased for people who are happy with their birth experience, whatever it was, but I really don't understand why those of us who are not happy should be told that we have issues, or unrealistic expectations or are. It sufficiently grateful for our lives or our babies lives.

Is it really so hard to understand that a woman may feel sad that she won't ever get to experience labour or the sensation of pushing her baby out? Or that she may mourn the loss of the benefits to her baby? My caesarean-born baby is 20% more likely to develop type I diabetes for example. I acknowledge that I am a privileged developed country woman but Im not going to apologize for not being thrilled with that.

By all means rejoice in your experience of it was positive for you but please try to find a way of honoring your experience without dismissing mine.

*sent from my phone so apologies for any typos


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I am genuinely pleased for people who are happy with their birth experience, whatever it was, but I really don't understand why those of us who are not happy should be told that we have issues, or unrealistic expectations or are. It sufficiently grateful for our lives or our babies lives.

Is it really so hard to understand that a woman may feel sad that she won't ever get to experience labour or the sensation of pushing her baby out? Or that she may mourn the loss of the benefits to her baby? My caesarean-born baby is 20% more likely to develop type I diabetes for example. I acknowledge that I am a privileged developed country woman but Im not going to apologize for not being thrilled with that.

By all means rejoice in your experience of it was positive for you but please try to find a way of honoring your experience without dismissing mine.

*sent from my phone so apologies for any typos


----------



## angelarose1 (Jun 19, 2009)

I guess the issue I sense in many women is this irrational preoccupation with perfection. Sometimes there is this undercurrent of competiveness between women, made evident by judgemental attitudes and constant comparison. It isn't uncommon and aside from being ridiculous in that there is usually no prize or even recognition for being the most perfect, it also robs the woman of fully appreciating the present moment for what it is because it is so seldom "perfect".


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LadyJade*
> 
> I attempted a home water birth. After 21 hours and no progress and midwives trying everything, we transferred. Shortly after that, there were some dangerous decels and I had an emergency c-section and a perfectly healthy baby boy. And I ended up with some very serious PPD coping with the aftermath of the birth. All of the "normal" people in my life were so happy for me - a gorgeous, healthy little boy! But I was in tears all the time mourning my lost home birth and the "perfect birth" I had planned.
> 
> Took me months to shake it off and realize I had been duped and it was only all these expectations and promises that if I just believed and prepared and took these vitamins and stuck enough EPO up my hoo hah that birth for me would be peaceful and natural and wonderful. Lots of women are lucky enough to get that, but that's all they are: lucky.


I find it very annoying when people don't admit to being lucky. Of course, we like to assign anything positive to our valiant efforts, but very often, it's wishful thinking.

I know it's hard to give up the feeling of being in control (even if that feeling has no basis in reality), but I've often seen the need for control get absolutely ridiculous, and the resulting "patting oneself on the back" (if the things go well) to be absolutely annoying.

I've known women who did no health diets, took no birthing classes, didn't exercise, and had a perfectly easy, quick birth. And they were nice enough to acknowledge that it was pure luck, they were smart enough to see that they didn't deserve any credit for it. And vice versa, some women do all the right things and prepare in most healthy ways, and bad things still happen.

It's sad when women buy into the whole "do these things, and your birth will be perfect" mentality.

And it's really awful when those for whom things did go well - by luck, tell others "You got a cesarean (or any other complication), obviously you did something wrong, or you caused it in some way, or you'll never achieve this holy grail of perfect birth", etc., etc.

Some complaints I've seen are quite an eye-opener - for example, complaining that the pain in childbirth was awful, even though she did the Hypnobabies class. There wasn't supposed to be any pain, not with Hypnobabies! I just don't get it. Another story mentioned how the future mother was so sure that she could birth her baby, naturally, she hasn't been more sure about anything in here life - and then she needed a cesarean. I know people tend to be optimistic when it comes to their health and safety, but how can anyone have such 100% certainty, far in advance, that they can birth a baby on their own?

Perfect birth is such a lofty goal, such a high pedestal, and falling down from it will surely be painful! Why are people setting themselves up for such disappointment?


----------



## Buzzbuzz (Aug 27, 2011)

I think this all plays into some dangerous ways of thought that humans are suspectible to. For the fortunate, it is so much more pleasant to believe that you are *virtuous* rather than merely lucky.

Some women who have birthed naturally don't realize that they are basically the George Bushes of birthing -- landed on third base (normally formed uterus, well-positioned baby, roomy pelvis) through luck and believe they hit a triple.

Others fervently believe that nothing bad can happen to them -- like the UC-er who did not seek medical attention for a cord prolapse because God would never let anything happen to her or her baby.

At the end of the day...We want to believe that we are virtuous and our virtue will be rewarded, we want to believe our faith will be rewarded, we want to believe that bad things don't happen to good people, we want to believe we control the uncontrollable, we want to believe that if something bad happens to someone else that they *deserved* it and we *don't* deserve it and that whatever we ascribe to (God, karma, positive reaffirmations, the universe generally) will protect our righteous selves.


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

I freely admit to being a George Bush of birthing (love that turn of phrase!) I seriously feel like nothing about birth was under my voluntary control at all. Birth ran over me like a tornado and left a baby in my lap. Hypnobirthing (which I did prior to my first) was about as useful as an umbrella in said tornado. I didn't bother with any labor prep the second time bc by then it was clear that things were going to happen as they were going to happen, regardless of any conscious participation on my part.

And I find it weird and unsettling that people who know my birth stories give me this bizarre kind of praise, like calling me a 'superwoman' and whatever. (My first was a hospital birth to which I showed up pushing, second was a precipitous labor and accidental UC - but really UC, the baby and I were the only people in the house unfortunately.) I think this view of an uncomplicated birth as some kind of achievement on the part of the woman is false and can be really harmful to women whose births don't go as they'd hoped. It needs to be debunked.


----------



## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I know I was lucky. I have chronic painful condition. My body failed me so many times. I am petite woman and I had large babies. I was lucky!

My college degree....that was an achievement.


----------



## CoBabyMaker (Nov 13, 2008)

Quote:


> Is it really so hard to understand that a woman may feel sad that she won't ever get to experience labour or the sensation of pushing her baby out? Or that she may mourn the loss of the benefits to her baby? My caesarean-born baby is 20% more likely to develop type I diabetes for example. I acknowledge that I am a privileged developed country woman but Im not going to apologize for not being thrilled with that.


I have come a long way in making peace with my c-sections but I have to agree with this. There are so many increased risks. THAT is why I wanted to avoid so many things. I was so drugged/wiped out I hardly saw my first daughter for 3 days.

Do I think that my my c-sections were needed? Yes, I now do believe they were and I will likely have another but I will probably always grieve when I see another mother hold her baby, still warm from the womb, to her naked chest. I think that's ok to want that.

I agree that ALL women should be supported in their birth experience, whatever that is, but that includes supporting a mom if they don't like the way things went.


----------



## FeliciaFlys (Jan 16, 2012)

I prepared for birth before I was even pregnant.

19 months of research, dealing with fears, visualizing an awesome US with just my husband present.

On other forums, women encouraged me through my pregnancy, I had an amazing, uncomplicated pregnancy. I had TONS of support, I was full of peace about the whole labor/birth experiance. I truly believed that I could do it. I was looking forward to it so much, just to experiance the raw feelings and emotions that go along with a natural birth. I didn't have any doubts that things would go wonderfully. I did all the things you're *supposed* to do to get a natural, perfect birth. I had the impression from the women I talked to that EVERYONE can do it naturally and that the women who didn't, were just too pansy or uneducated to make it happen. I was also under the impression -- from things posted on other boards about other women who hadn't acheived a natural labor -- that all the women were disappointed in their peers who hadn't been able to have their babies at home, naturally. No one ever came right out and said it, but there are subtle hints...and not so subtle too.

When I finally went into labor, it was wonderful...at first...and then after 45 hours of labor with no sleep, almost no progression I transferred to the hopsital, pushed for a few hours and then caved for a c-section when I was completely exhausted. My son and I almost died during surgery because I hemorraged.

Recovery SUCKED!!!!!!!

I felt ashamed of myself, I was in pain, I had PPD for over a year.

Here, I'd done all this research, I'd known how to avoid c-section and other interventions and I went down that road anyway.

Why did I feel so shamed? Why did I mourn over the c-section? Why was I so disappointed?

Because I was led to believe that ALL women can and should have a natural birth and that those who don't have failed.

No, people don't come out and use those words (well, some do) but it's there.

Yes, I think it's a good idea to aim for a natural birth. It's better for baby and mama.

BUT, I think somehow women have the idea that EVERYONE CAN. And the vast majority of women CAN, given she is educated and has supportive people around here. Still, there are exceptions to the rule and for those of us who have *failed* -- according to a growing number of people -- we feel like s**t if we couldn't do it...even if we are well educated and well supported. For whatever reason, we didn't get the birth we wanted.

That being said, some women go into their experience not expecting anything "natural", end up with a c-section or many interventions and still get PPD. I do think there is something to be said for a natural, vaginal birth that gives a women a sense of accomplishment. So anyone who thinks that a woman doesn't have a right to feel emotional about the way she birthed her baby needs to look at things from a different perspective. What she needs is good support from family and friends and others AFTER birth as well, if things didn't go very well. She needs to feel like she didn't fail.

I agree with the other posters who said that women who have a "perfect birth" were lucky.

The "perfect birthers" would like to chalk it up to all their preparation before birth, as if they MADE it happen. And while preparation and education before birth helps, it doesn't mean you'll end up with a perfect birth. Not even if EVERYTHING is perfect BEFORE birth. I am living proof.


----------



## Babydoll1285 (Apr 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> Some complaints I've seen are quite an eye-opener - *for example, complaining that the pain in childbirth was awful, even though she did the Hypnobabies class. There wasn't supposed to be any pain, not with Hypnobabies! I just don't get it*. Another story mentioned how the future mother was so sure that she could birth her baby, naturally, she hasn't been more sure about anything in here life - and then she needed a cesarean. I know people tend to be optimistic when it comes to their health and safety, but how can anyone have such 100% certainty, far in advance, that they can birth a baby on their own?


I completely agree that some people perpetuate an unrealistic idea of childbirth, creating a disappointment for women who don't have the 'perfect' birth. I'd like to say that in the case of someone who took a Hypnobabies class and expected a completely pain free birth, they had the wrong idea about Hypnobabies. Hypnobabies does NOT promise a painless perfect birth. Some women do have that experience using Hypnobabies hypnosis but Hypnobabies instructors and the Home Study materials are VERY clear that is not the goal. The idea is to have an enjoyable, comfortable birth and to be educated enough to make the best decisions for your family before, during, and after your birthing.


----------



## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

My grandmother burst my "perfect birth" bubble. She told me that even though I expected it to be perfect and wonderful... prepare for swearing, fear, anger and extreme pain. Thanks granny. But she was honest and she was right. All the other moms I knew that told me what a beautiful experience it would and even colored breastfeeding like it was the easiest thing on the planet. They were quick to point out I was messing it all up when I got mastitis within two weeks and happy to tell me to get over it. It's been years and I'm still pissed at the one friend who chastised me for my problems with DD1.


----------



## Soon2BeMom (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm pregnant now and this discussion has been helpful. I really appreciate reading people's stories. So maybe we should say birth is part luck and part accomplishment? Some well-prepared, well-read people with lots of inner strength aren't able to have a "natural" birth without luck... some of these women have not-the-greatest luck during birth and still manage to soldier on, stay determined, and get their natural birth (what an amazing accomplishment!). And without doing the advance reading, classes, healthy lifestyle, and inner work, some otherwise lucky people may not be prepared enough to go all the way though a natural birth... but some do (what amazing luck!). Just because luck plays such an important role, doesn't mean we shouldn't hope for a "perfect birth" (whatever that might mean to you) or work hard preparing, reading, taking classes, being healthy, finding the best birth team, and doing the inner work to get it.

Someone mentioned that it's not wise to set your expectations so high that you'll set yourself up for deep disappointment. And I agree - it's not healthy to have ridiculous expectations, ignoring the many possibilities that things won't go your way. But it's equally unhealthy to work toward and hope for something, and then when it doesn't happen, dismiss it without feeling disappointment or going through a healing process. I think both of these situations are unhealthy.


----------



## UnassistedMomma (Jan 24, 2006)

I think that birth can still be 'perfect' although it was imperfect.

My last two births - UC's - one was a 42 hour labor w/ a posterior baby. One was a 41 hour labor w/ a nearly 10 lb baby. They were HARD and I definitely would have preferred not to have such lengthy labors, and positioning issues, but I still consider them perfect, even in their imperfection.

If YOU are happy w/ your birth, excellent! And if you weren't, that's ok too. Do what you need to do to be at peace.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> Perfect birth is such a lofty goal, such a high pedestal, and falling down from it will surely be painful! Why are people setting themselves up for such disappointment?


OK, I know that you are asking this as a rhetorical question, but I thought I'd answer for myself.

I don't feel like I was one of those who expected a perfect birth...in fact, there were plenty of reasons to believe that my birth wouldn't be perfect. I was an "old" mom who had had trouble conceiving, and I was planning a hospital birth, which I didn't consider "ideal" but it was what was do-able for me...so I expected that perhaps some interventions might be necessary, and I had an idea that a c-section wasn't out of the question. I just knew that I would give everything I had to a natural labor, and I figured that would sort of innoculate me against disappointment if I had a c-section...I would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that I "tried my best."

What I learned is that being prepared for "less than perfect" in the abstract is one thing; having a long, grueling labor is another. I had no way to know what it would feel like to spend hour after hour with painful contractions and vomiting, but no progress in my labor. I had no way to prepare myself for the surreal feeling of beginning my second night in labor and still not really knowing what was going on that was making things so difficult and taking so long. And I certainly had no concept that by "giving it all" to my labor, I would have nothing left for my recovery.

My physical recovery was in many ways worse than the labor & c-section. I was so exhausted & depleted...I didn't really recognize myself. All my coping mechanisms were completely exhausted. I really could handle very, very little. My support network would have been just fine if I'd had a "normal" labor & delivery; it was completely inadequate to handle the degree of dependence that I experienced after my birth. And I was joyful that my daughter had arrived, but I almost didn't have the physical capacity to express that joy. It was more of a conceptual joy. I don't really know how to explain it.

What I discovered in my recovery was that trying to find a perfect zen "acceptance" of my situation was just another impossible ideal that I couldn't live up to. I really felt like s**t and it felt more honest and more healing to just say, "this sucks & I feel like s**t" than to berate myself for not being more "at peace" with my disappointment. In fact, a recurring theme for me during the past 3 years is giving up on the notion that there is one perfect way to do this...and by "this" I mean, birth, parenting, and integrating a tough experience into my life. My labor had it's own time frame and it's own trajectory, and my recovery is the same. I might wish that things would progress faster and look more pleasant from the outside, but the real healing seems to happen in the moments when I can be honest about things, even when they are ugly & unpleasant.

And I've also had to forgive myself for not knowing more than I know when I know it. I wasn't trying to set myself up for a train wreck, but a train wreck is what I got. I have to forgive myself for that every day.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Babydoll1285*
> 
> I completely agree that some people perpetuate an unrealistic idea of childbirth, creating a disappointment for women who don't have the 'perfect' birth. I'd like to say that in the case of someone who took a Hypnobabies class and expected a completely pain free birth, they had the wrong idea about Hypnobabies. Hypnobabies does NOT promise a painless perfect birth. Some women do have that experience using Hypnobabies hypnosis but Hypnobabies instructors and the Home Study materials are VERY clear that is not the goal. The idea is to have an enjoyable, comfortable birth and to be educated enough to make the best decisions for your family before, during, and after your birthing.


This is a good point. I think perhaps the confusion comes from how we each interpret "enjoyable, comfortable" birth. If I had invested in a method that I believed was going to lead to a "enjoyable, comfortable" birth, I would assume that while there might be pain, even significant pain, I wouldn't expect excruciating pain, so I might be surprised if that's what I got. And "education to make the best decisions" would seem to me to be incongruous with "a feeling of total loss of control of my body and the laboring process." So yes, I would be surprised if I expected to have an enjoyable, comfortable experience where I would be empowered to make good decisions, and instead got an experience where I experienced mind-boggling pain and a feeling of total loss of control.

Obviously, if a woman expects her Hypnobabies training to lead to an entirely pain-free birth, she's misinterpreted the program and is setting herself up for disappointment. But she might have a completely reasonable expectation and still be surprised/disappointed. Some births are just like that.


----------



## SilverSage (Apr 16, 2009)

I don't understand this 'enjoyable, comfortable birth' thing. I've been exceedingly lucky and had 'quick, easy' no complication homebirths. While I will admit they were quick, easy they were not! Stuff coming out of both ends that's not a baby, horrible burning, cramping, churning, turning you inside out pains, being torn in two from the inside out, screaming, people making stupid (to me at the time) comments, hyperventilating, etc. What's ideal about that? Birth is painful, exhausting and would be humiliating if you weren't so dang tired, preoccupied and in pain you didn't care. I have to psych myself up, every time before getting pregnant and I go into every labor with extreme trepidation.

I have a small farm and see plenty of 'natural' births. They don't always go well and I've never seen a painless one. This thing about our bodies being made to give birth annoys me no end. Yes we were, but we were also made to walk, breathe, the heart to beat, etc. Sometimes those things don't work right. You don't see most people telling someone to man up and have faith in their body during a heart attack

To me, an ideal birth is one where mother and baby both come out the other end, no matter how they get there.


----------



## DeChRi (Apr 19, 2002)

I have had 3 very different births, all resulting in delightfully healthy babies and mom.

After each experience, there is one thing I recognize that lets me be at peace with them.....owning the decisions made regarding my birth, and feeling like I had the knowledge to be confident in those decisions.

My first birth was spontaneous, no pain meds, no augmentation, nothing. I was 20 yr old and not nearly as educated as I am not. While I was pushing, my OB mutter "going to make a little cut and help you out" as I was in my own world, but an episiotomy without further discussion and I had a handful of stitches, and that was that.

My second was 8 yr later. I had a great OB that was very pro natural birth and supported me. I was GBS+, water broken, almost 36 hr later I had no contractions. After much research, that was my comfort level to go time stamp myself at the hospital. OB had us do every natural induction method possible. FInally she gave me the option of trying a little pit to see if we can get my body going, keep waiting, knowing if we hit 24 hr and nothing happened we may look at csec. We ended up with pit, still took 9 hr to start contraction, and I pushed out my 9lb baby without pain meds of other intervention.

My third was a walk in the park. Went to hospital at 8cm, pushed her out, no anything, home next day.

In hind sight, although my 2nd labor had more intervention, I was happy with that because I felt like I owned every decision I made. I had the knowledge and did what I was comfortable with. My first, which was intervention free other than the episiotomy, I felt robbed and bitter, because I didn't have a say and felt kind of out of control.

Everyone is different, but I think when women are empowered with knowledge to make decisions and ask the questions to their care providers that they need to, in order to feel like they own the decisions, then there tends to me less mourning the "perfect birth experience" if it doesn't happen.


----------



## UnassistedMomma (Jan 24, 2006)

ITA. I think the sense of a loss of control can be one of the greatest harbingers of disappointment about the birth, regardless of how everything ultimately turns out or what was planned for or idealized.


----------



## ursusarctos (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> The only type of perfect birth to me is the one that end with healthy mom and baby. The rest is cherry on top. The rest is the privilege of First World spoiled citizens.


While I see what you're saying and I too agree that the healthy mom and baby is paramount, I think that the birth experience is still more than just the cherry on top. The "birth trauma is a first world problem" argument doesn't work for me. Obesity is a first world problem. Does that mean it doesn't still cause disability, disease, and sometimes crushing depression due to social pressures? No. Just because people in the first world have the privilege of not having to worry about starving to death in the next famine doesn't mean that they don't have real problems due to a messed up food culture. In the same way, first world women have the privilege of having a very small likelihood of dying in childbirth; this doesn't mean that they do not have problems that arise due to a messed up birth culture. If anything, I think it is appalling that, with all of the resources available in the first world, so many women still feel so strongly that they were violated or disrespected in their births. While some of that comes from inflated, unrealistic expectations of natural birth, I have also read many, many stories from women who went into birth with no expectations, only to have terrible experiences under hospital care that later led them to question the prevalent hospital birth norms. There is no excuse for this, given the resources that we are so privileged to have. And those women are part of the reason why things have improved a lot in many hospitals in respect to how women are treated.

I personally had a long, mild labor of 37 hours. I called the hospital twice during that time; they asked if the baby was moving (she was), and told me to come in when I couldn't manage with the pain any longer. Well, I realized in transition that if we didn't leave immediately we wouldn't make it. I got to the hospital fully dilated and pushed the baby out easily standing by the bed. I had a couple small tears. I wouldn't say this was due to luck - after all, the majority of young, healthy women with low-risk pregnancies do have uneventful vaginal births - nor do I chalk it up to virtue on my part, for the same reason.

Then 15 minutes later my placenta came out and I hemorrhaged. Since part of the bleeding was coming from my cervix, they had to put me under general anesthesia for a couple hours so they could stitch it up. I left DD with DH, in a big hurry. I did not feel traumatized in the least by this experience, because all of the very competent medical staff were talking to me, telling me what was going on and asking for my consent for various things the whole time between when I started hemorrhaging and when they put me under. Had they ignored me and whisked me off without explanation or engaging with me, well, I would still be alive and I would be grateful for that, but I am positive that the experience would have been overall highly traumatic. In fact, the only thing about the birth that left a bad taste in my mouth was when the midwife lied and manipulated me to get me to go along with her postpartum routine (this was before I there was any sign that I would bleed) rather than engaging with me and respecting my wishes as a rational adult in a non-emergent situation. The point of all this is that medical procedures themselves are not traumatic; it is how they are applied, how the staff treats you when they are carrying them out. Human dignity is a real thing, and respecting it is paramount, even (or particularly) during sensitive, life-and-death events like childbirth. I think many of the women who experience trauma from their births feel that they were not listened to or respected. And, from my own experience with a serious complication requiring urgent care, it is perfectly possible to respect and engage the woman at the same time as carrying out lifesaving procedures.

I think it's sad that a respectful, positive birth experience is considered a privilege by many. Obviously birth cannot be planned, it isn't a comfortable thing, and many women hate it. That doesn't mean that there aren't things that can increase the likelihood (NOT guarantee) of a more positive birth experience. No woman should be made to feel bad about how she birthed, or how she felt about it. And yes, in the end, the birth is but a tiny moment in your life as a parent relating to your child. But women who do feel bad about what happened in their births should not be silenced with the "oh, you spoiled westerner, why aren't you just happy that your baby is alive?" line. In the same way, most people would agree that first world women are justified in complaining about workplace discrimination, even though women in many parts of the world have no legal rights whatsoever and are clearly much worse off. Depression from a birth experience perceived as traumatic is real, and has real consequences for the parent-child relationship. Women who experience that should be allowed to talk about their personal experience in public, including sharing things that they think would help prevent such traumatic experiences, without being accused of making other people feel like their birth wasn't good enough.

We aren't confined to the massively inadequate resources that result in so much preventable tragedy in the third world. We have no excuse to content ourselves with the bottom line, which is life for the mother and baby. We have overwhelmingly achieved that goal in the first world. "Sucking it up" and repressing real hurts while labeling them as self-indulgent or whiny does nothing to help the women suffering in poorer countries. There is absolutely room for women to evaluate and sometimes mourn their birth experiences *if that is how they feel*. For some women, that comes with a rejection of the natural birth paradigm; for others, it comes with a rejection of the medicalized birth paradigm. We are lucky enough to have the space to be able to do that, and we should not feel guilty about taking full advantage of this glorious, unprecedented luxury which is relative safety through life events like birth.


----------



## Lynann (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm joining the discussion late, but there are a few things that concern me.

The OP mentioned watching reality tv birthing shows as contributing to her thought that the perfect birth isn't possible. I've watched some of these same programs recently, and I am horrified at the way the show birth. Every single woman I saw was made to birth on her back, even with 2 separate cases of shoulder dystocia. Also those who did manage to birth without pain meds were made out to have some kind of super woman complex, rather than being concerned about the effect of those drugs on their baby. There are very real reasons for wanting to avoid interventions, but this is never portrayed on these programs. Watching them with give a very distorted view of what birth can be.

It makes me sad that everyone seems to feel so defensive about their birth choices and not just allow each of us to own our own feelings about our births no matter the method or outcome.

My first birth was definitely less than ideal. I read and prepared well, or so I thought at the time. I was using a LM who encouraged me to educate myself. However I was also one of the 10% who had my water break before labor started. What I later found out by experience was that choosing a LM rather than a CNM put a time limit on how long I could labor at home after the breaking of water. After 24 hours I had to be transferred to the hospital because it was State Law, not for any real medical reason (I had no infection nor showed any signs of infection or distress of baby). I was then under the care of the on-call OB, a complete stranger. Even when I informed the nurses & OB that I had difficult to reach veins I was ignored and instead treated as dehydrated, which then caused my body to swell up from the IV fluids they forced on me. After another 12 hours and only at 8cm I was told I had arrested dilation and the baby would need to come out by c/s. My son was then treated to all sorts of invasive tests as they were still obsessing about infection that wasn't there. He was very traumatized and never managed to successfully latch while we were still in the hospital. The long term effect was that nursing only lasted 12 weeks because of issues that started with how he was born and how he was treated during that first hour (away from me.)

With my second birth I only had 2 choices. I could have a hospital birth with an OB, but it would be a scheduled c/s, as none of the local hospitals did VBACs. Or I could try to find a CNM who would do a HBAC. Fortunately I found a wonderful CNM and she gave me a lot more info than I previously had, including how to avoid another early rupture of membranes (vit c from week 20.) She respected me as a mother and as a woman, and was content to stay as hands off as I wanted. I also found ways to work with my body during labor from The Pink Kit. My HBAC birth was 9 hours total with only 20 minutes of pushing. My HBAC baby was 9lb 8oz and had a nucal arm so the quick pushing phase was truly amazing. It wasn't just luck. I learned the right info about internal relaxtion during labor. I prepared for a long labor and was surprised that it went as quickly as I did. I did get a minor tear and a few skid marks thanks to the nucal arm, and my water didn't break until the pushing started. Recovery was harder 2nd time around because of one particular skid mark at the front. Yet this second birth was perfect. It wasn't just luck. It was many different things. It was the right birth attendants. It was the right education before birth. It was the right diet during pregnancy. It was the support of my husband. It was letting my body do what it was designed to do. And mostly it was accepting that each birth is different, not just woman to woman, but child to child for the same woman.

I've had the birth that didn't go as I thought it would, and I've had the birth that did. I don't think it was good or bad luck. I also don't think it was all me either. It was a complex mixture in both cases that made the difference. I will always regret some of the things that happened with DS1 even though I have been successful with DS2 in those same areas. It doesn't make me bad, unhealthy or someone who had deep seated issues. It just makes me human.

The perfect birth is possible even for those who did not like how a previous birth happened. I would however recommend switching off those awful reality tv birth shows and spend the time doing something/anything else instead.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *SilverSage* 


> To me, an ideal birth is one where mother and baby both come out the other end, no matter how they get there.


This comment really set me off, but hopefully, I can be reasonable. First of all..."to me"...so what? If it's your birth you're talking about, then your idea of an ideal birth is relevant. If it's not your birth, then it's not. Four of my five "births" ended with a living mom and a living baby, and they were as far from anything resembling an ideal as it gets. (The fifth left a living mom, who wished she'd died - it wasn't ideal, either.)

Other random comments:

People in this thead seem to be using the words "disappointed/disappointment" to describe women who have been traumatized. That's really dismissive. You don't have to understand the trauma to understand that it exists. I've been disappointed many times in my life, but my feelings after each of my children arrived were so far beyond disappointment that I don't even have the words to describe the difference. Disappointment was barely on the radar. Pain, anger, fear, despair, extreme frustration...those were all there to a significant degree. Disappointment...not so much.

There's also an underlying vibe, in both the OP and subsequent posts, that women who have birth trauma feel that way, because other people have trained them to expect a "perfect birth". I never expected a perfect birth with my oldest. I'd never even come across the concept of a perfect birth at that time. I expected it to hurt ,and it did. I expected it to be exhausting, and it was. I expected labour to be scary, but it wasn't (I was a little nervous at first, but it was mostly exhilirating). I didn't expect to have a c-section forced on me, with minimal explanation, after I verbally refused consent. I never expected perfect. I also never expected medical assault. And, no - I didn't want a c-section. I grew up looking at a c-section scar (vertical incision, with keloids) and it scared the crap out of me...way, way more than all the birth horror stories in the world. None of that means I expected perfection.

Then, there's the control thing. I think people use "control" differently, but I never, ever, ever expected to be able to control birth. The only control I ever thought I'd have - and I didn't even think about it consciously - was that other people wouldn't do things to me, unless there was an actual life and death emergency situation, without my permission or after I'd said "no". Surgery itself is traumatizing (at least for me). Surgery performed after I said, "no", goes to a whole other level. To this day, I've never had a good explanation for why my son was taken by c-section, or why said c-section was done on such a panic basis, or why I was loaded up with so many drugs afterwards, or anything else. They just decided to do it, and to hell with me. I don't give a crap about "ideal" or "perfect" (and that's not uncommon - I know several other women irl who had unexpected c-sections, who weren't swayed by any natural birth community, and weren't expecting "perfect"...and they still had a hell of a time dealing with it). I just wanted "not abusive" and, preferably, not surgical.

And...Getting over it. I'm slowly getting over the c-section thing, at least to some extent. But, people overlook the fact that it's not as simple as whether one baby arrives via c-section or vaginally, if one is planning to have more kids. I had secondary infertility, and then a couple of miscarriages, after ds1. No medical explanation was ever found. I'll never know if my primary c-section had anything to do with it...or if that c-section had anything to do with the pelvic pain (also no diagnosis ever found) that bothered me for years...and is back, after my last c-section. There can be significant long-term effects from c-sections, even "uncomplicated" c-sections like mine. It's hard to get over something when you were coerced into it, and then it has long-term and/or permanent consequences. I had several people tell me I needed to "get over it" when I was trying to process my third c-section...but most of those people failed to realize that one doesn't get over something until it's over. Now that I've had a tubal, and wll never have another c-section, I can get them into some kind of perspective, and "get over" the experience. I couldn't do that while I was still facing more c-sections.

Oh - and I don't recall the exact comment upthread, but...yeah...I'll probably go to my grave wondering what it's like to actually give birth (in the biological sense - I don't feel up to the fight about whether having someone anesthetize me and cut me open is giving birth or not). It was something I looked forward to for a long time, and I never experienced it. That part is disappointing, but it's pretty minor, in the overall scheme of emotional upheaval related to being legally assaulted by doctors.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Oh, wow. I couldn't disagree more with the entire premise of this thread.

OP, you're at peace with your cesarean, and that's wonderful. You are qualified to judge only one woman-yourself-and one set of lived experiences-your own. And on those grounds, other women have no business judging you. I think I share a lot of peoples' sentiments when I say that I'm tired of childbirth-and pretty much every parenting event thereafter-turning into a pissing contest among women.

But it's when you start in on your SIL and friends who've had cesareans where you lose me. You are not these women, you will never know the fully story of their births, and you are therefore not in a position to pass judgement on their experiences or how they perceive them. So what if they feel robbed? It's their right. Just as it's your right to feel reconciled with your own cesarean.

The underlying assumption seems to be that if women feel trapped and betrayed within the confines of our obstetric system, if they question routine and invasive (but anti-evidence) interventions, or if they feel that they were manipulated, scared, and maybe even bullied into their cesareans or other interventions&#8230;&#8230;they were just a bunch of shallow, spoiled little ninnies who wanted The Perfect Birth.

Alenushka's rant about First World women not understanding poor women does nothing for me, either. There's already a parallel thread about this in the Vaccinations forum. This line of thinking didn't work when I was in grade school and the cafeteria ladies tried to guilt me into eating my vegetables by mentioning the famine in East Africa. It doesn't work when somebody is trying to guilt me into consenting to some or all vaccinations. And it certainly won't convince me to lie back, spread my legs, and give obstetricians carte blanche to do whatever they please with my body and my baby. The latter may indeed be the goal. But exploiting the sufferings of Third World women to make this point is unacceptable.

We don't have to dispel the theory of the Perfect Birth. Every one of us posting here knows that there's no such thing. Let's work instead on debunking the myth of women demanding the Perfect Birth.


----------



## cat13 (Dec 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> Oh, wow. I couldn't disagree more with the entire premise of this thread.
> 
> ...


----------



## chapluqa (Jun 13, 2011)

Thank you, Turquesa, you've said so much that I wanted to say, in a very clear and eloquent way.









I would add the following:

In my opinion (after years of research on this whole birth thing), it is not at all unreasonable for women to demand or expect that their basic human rights to bodily autonomy over their own physiological process will be respected. Sadly, this is not the case with birth under the medical model, where pregnancy and childbirth are treated as near-pathological conditions which need to be intervened with in order to 'protect' women and babies from the risks of such conditions. Of course nearly all of these interventions are at odds with the physiological process of birth and the conditions it needs to take place optimally. Just being in a hospital environment can easily disrupt the flow of hormones which guide the birth process and enable women to birth their babies in the most efficient and manageable way possible. Do other mammals respond well to being forced out of their 'safe place/nest/den' while giving birth? Of course not, it can cause their labor to stop and most people are aware of this. Yet we expect women to be able to birth naturally in the most unnatural of environments with so many interruptions and disturbances.

I'm not saying that staying at home will guarantee an easier or smoother birth for anyone. There are so many factors involved, mental, physical, and emotional, not only within the birthing woman herself, but also with respect to the support people around her. But it's a good start.

There are no guarantees in life. There is no magic formula or list of things to do (or not do) that can ensure that absolutely nothing will go wrong during birth. That is why we have medical facilities available, but just because they exist doesn't mean that giving birth is so inherently dangerous as to justify the outrageous amount of intervention that most women are subject to. Anyone who attempts to birth at home but has had to transfer to hospital for a medically indicated reason shouldn't be judged (or judge herself) for 'failing' at natural birth or on the other hand having unrealistic expectations of a 'perfect' birth experience.

I don't agree that women who have pleasant, straightforward births are simply 'lucky' - this should be the norm. In an unhindered physiological birth, naturally occurring complications are extremely rare. Unfortunately the entire maternity system is stacked against us having normal, physiological births. And yet, women are conned into believing they can have a 'perfect birth' within this system, without understanding the forces they are up against or the conditions necessary for the physiological process to proceed smoothly. It doesn't help society in general perpetuates so many unhelpful images and beliefs about how childbirth is a horrible, painful experience that is only worth enduring because you get a baby out of it in the end.

I agree that there's no such thing as a 'perfect' birth, but we should acknowledge that birth is a normal physiological process which is seldom given the chance to unfold as nature intended it. Women are strong and our bodies are evolved/created to do this.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> People in this thead seem to be using the words "disappointed/disappointment" to describe women who have been traumatized. That's really dismissive. You don't have to understand the trauma to understand that it exists. I've been disappointed many times in my life, but my feelings after each of my children arrived were so far beyond disappointment that I don't even have the words to describe the difference. Disappointment was barely on the radar. Pain, anger, fear, despair, extreme frustration...those were all there to a significant degree. Disappointment...not so much.


This is such an excellent point. One of the things that I wish fervently is that birth trauma could be better understood and better treatments and responses to traumatized women could be developed. No matter where I look, I seem to see 2 prevailing views of birth trauma:

1) Birth trauma exists in the heads of neurotic women who need to get over themselves.

2) Birth trauma exists because mainstream medical care and its emphasis on "unnecessary interventions" of course causes trauma. So steer clear of "mainstream medical" and you should be fine.

My problem with 1) is that this is misogynist and cruel and frankly compounds the trauma by telling the traumatized woman with the feeling that she must be a basket case.

My problem with 2) is that it lets both the medical community and the natural birth community off the hook. Medical community is just assumed to be brutal and horrible (and presumably beyond reform, so just avoid it like the plague), and the natural birth community can just revert to 1) when women experience trauma during their HB/UC/or whatever.

And neither of these views leaves any room for understanding or empathy or compassion for the woman who has experienced trauma. In fact, she as an individual is not valued at all. Let alone trying to frame what kind of care and support could actually move her through her trauma. There's no room in either of these stances to understand privilege and its role in birth care and outcomes. And there's no room at all for women who enter their labors perfect healthy & sane and perfectly prepared to have a non-traumatic experience, but end up with trauma anyway.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Reading this thread makes me see red.

I do believe it's about control. CONTROL of women. Drink a glass of wine in the 3rd trimester? BAD DRUNKEN MOTHER. REFUSE to give baby a 2nd-hand dose of morphine the dr prescribed RIGHT before it has to learn to breathe? BAD HIPPY MOTHER.

Lie down and do as your told, that is the medicalisation of birth culture. Seeking to avoid that is NOT about a women seeking a perfect birth, it's about trying to maintain sovereignty over her own body and it's functions it's about wanting to make one's OWN decisions about what needs to be done. In the 19th century women were accused of wanting unreasonable/irrational things if they complained of their husbands raping them. Women were having a baby every 14 months, often stillborn or damaged due to the lack of food during pregnancy and their weakened state of health, but they were to feel "grateful" for their "blessings". Women would refer to having "a good husband" - this was a husband who DIDN'T rape and allowed some spacing between children! This is no different. This is just one more thing women are told not to want, not to seek, not to feel bitter about having kept from them.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> Reading this thread makes me see red.
> 
> ...


What I see on these forums, pretty often by the way, is the attitude "I sought the perfect birth, I had it, and if you didn't, that's because you didn't work hard enough for it, and you are an epic fail because of that". Not nice. And it's also a form of control. And that's what (I think) is the topic of this thread.

Birth was over-medicalized for a long while, and now the push in the opposite direction is starting. Which is great, and normal - every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and it's healthy in general, but it has a potential to turn nasty in its own way and push a bit too far. I'll give examples below.

What makes *me* see red is the insinuations that non-perfect births are somehow a woman's fault. And the gloating that the perfect births are all due to the perfect poster's diligence (and very few admit to just pure luck, such as not having pre-e and not needing an emergency c-section at 31 weeks.) Humility and "Here but for the grace of God go I" is often conspicuously absent from these forums. I've seen it so many times here, it's tiresome.

Same for cesareans - I've always felt this vibe here (not from all members of course, but it's very pronounced nonetheless), that people look down on those who have c-sections. This thread about a cesarean forum was very educational. In fact, the cesarean forum didn't even exist a few months ago - as if women who had it didn't exist either!

And now that whole thing with the orgasm during birth - why thanks, let's raise the plank a little higher still! I've seen a woman ask about it, in full seriousness, about how to do that during birth. Some described their nice experiences that came pretty close to that, others were nice enough to explain that it was just a function of that particular person's neurology and while possible, it's not a requirement (yet, thank God) for everyone to have a "When Harry met Sally" moment during birth.

Another example is that people can's even say they were unable to breastfeed, without humbly apologizing fifty five times that they had the nerve to bleed severely and to have Sheehan's syndrome. That atmosphere is not supportive. Yes we know breastfeeding is best, everyone on these forums knows, so if she said she couldn't, just lay off.

Anyways... *some people* manage to turn the healthiest, most natural ideas into mommy wars and "I'm better ("stronger", crunchier etc) than you" games. That's what I thought this thread was all about.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> My problem with 1) is that this is misogynist and cruel and frankly compounds the trauma by telling the traumatized woman with the feeling that she must be a basket case.
> 
> ...


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chapluqa*
> 
> It doesn't help society in general perpetuates so many unhelpful images and beliefs about how childbirth is a horrible, painful experience that is only worth enduring because you get a baby out of it in the end.


Well, I'd suggest that the reason for the perpetuation of these 'beliefs' is that many (perhaps most?) women *do* experience childbirth as horrible, painful, and only worth enduring because you get a baby out of it. (Good Lord, would anyone here choose to go through labor if *not* for the baby?!) Certainly this has been my experience in two rapid, straightforward, 'natural' labors. Best of luck to you for something different, but I'd be wary of assuming that the 'horrible, painful' bit experienced by many is merely a result of suboptimal delivery environments.

Quote:


> I agree that there's no such thing as a 'perfect' birth, but we should acknowledge that birth is a normal physiological process which is seldom given the chance to unfold as nature intended it. Women are strong and our bodies are evolved/created to do this.


Right, because normal labor and delivery 'as nature intended it' is freaking painful, at least IME and in the experience of most mothers I've spoken to. Evolution doesn't care about anyone's subjective experience.


----------



## chapluqa (Jun 13, 2011)

Mambera - I wasn't trying to imply that giving birth wasn't horribly painful for some, many, or most women. The point was that for our entire lives we're conditioned to expect it to be this horribly painful emergency situation, so it's not surprising that most women experience it that way, regardless of the environment they give birth in (although I argue that this can make a big difference).

However, I wouldn't say that's a universal human experience to have horrible, painful birth, just as 'orgasmic birth' isn't something that every woman experiences. My own mother describes giving birth to me (her first and only child, delivered naturally in a hospital) as 'blissful' and not at all painful. Intense, yes, but not painful. At the time she was heavily involved in personal development seminars that promoted the idea that we are powerful and create our own reality, so I suppose she envisioned the experience she wanted to have and made it happen by actively de-programming herself from the mainstream expectations of birth as horrible and painful. I don't think she was just 'lucky' - her doctor was completely surprised that she had such an easy labor as he was anticipating she would need a c-section due to being a tiny woman.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all we need do is visualize our perfect birth and everything will go according to plan - as I've said before, there are no guarantees in life. But there's no denying that the mind-body connection exists and that expectations can make a difference. My personal plan for my upcoming birth is to do as much as possible to create the right external and internal conditions to enable the physiological birth process, but also to let go of any expectations about how easy/hard, painful/not painful it will be. Instead I will focus on the knowledge that my body knows what to do and the best thing I can do is relax and let it do its thing. I won't be surprised if it's bloody hard work but I have total confidence that I can do it.

GoBecGo - ITA with everything you are saying. It makes me so sad/angry to hear people say to a woman who has gone through a birthing ordeal (usually, but not always at a hospital), "at least you have a healthy baby." Shouldn't we aspire to a bit more than that rather than just accepting that because this is the new 'norm' that it's the way it always has been and always will be?

I don't blame individual women if they have such crappy birth experiences. As mentioned above, it is largely a result of patriarchal control over women's bodies which defines our maternity system. It's not the fault of individual women but it's certainly our collective responsibility to reclaim our bodily autonomy.

I daresay that way, way back (and perhaps in the few matriarchal societies left today) when pregnancy and childbirth were regarded as 'strictly women's business' and were the provenance of multigenerational communities of women sharing collective wisdom, they were simply regarded as a normal events in a woman's life rather than 'the most dangerous thing a woman will do in her lifetime'. Even just a few generations ago most women would have had first-hand experience of attending births, learning from women breastfeeding in the community, and taking care of infants while growing up - while sadly today we need to read stacks of books, attend classes and hire experts to teach us these essential skills of womanhood.


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chapluqa*
> 
> I daresay that way, way back (and perhaps in the few matriarchal societies left today) when pregnancy and childbirth were regarded as 'strictly women's business' and were the provenance of multigenerational communities of women sharing collective wisdom, they were simply regarded as a normal events in a woman's life rather than 'the most dangerous thing a woman will do in her lifetime'. Even just a few generations ago most women would have had first-hand experience of attending births, learning from women breastfeeding in the community, and taking care of infants while growing up - while sadly today we need to read stacks of books, attend classes and hire experts to teach us these essential skills of womanhood.


Hmm. I rather think that childbirth was, until recently, quite the most dangerous thing most women would do in their lifetimes. There was a piece in the NY Times recently by a Western woman who became pregnant and gave birth in Somalia. Apparently they have a saying about pregnant women there: "The mouth of your grave is open."

Quote:


> My own mother describes giving birth to me (her first and only child, delivered naturally in a hospital) as 'blissful' and not at all painful.


Actually my mother also said she didn't find childbirth particularly painful, although she is the only woman I've ever heard say that. (She's the reason I put 'most' and not 'all' in my previous post.) But it's definitely her birth stories that shaped my initial thoughts/expectations about childbirth. Before I had my first I was hoping I'd gotten whichever gene was responsible for the painless childbirth; sadly it doesn't seem to have worked out that way. I wouldn't say I was *expecting* horrible pain, although I was aware it was a possibility. I certainly would *not* say that I had been 'conditioned' to believe it would be a horribly painful experience. Nonetheless, fbow, horrible pain is what I got, and what lots of other women get too regardless of how much preparation they've done or how optimal their birthing environments.

This idea that bad childbirth experiences are "largely a result of patriarchal control over women's bodies" is just not right. Maybe *some* of them are, but many others are traumatic just all on their own.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chapluqa*
> 
> ... At the time she was heavily involved in personal development seminars that promoted the idea that we are powerful and create our own reality, so I suppose she envisioned the experience she wanted to have and made it happen by actively de-programming herself from the mainstream expectations of birth as horrible and painful. I don't think she was just 'lucky'


My mom fully expected birth to be awful and painful, and she said pain wasn't a big deal. When she started having regular contractions and was sure is was birth time, she *walked* to the hospital (didn't want to call the ambulance). To use her words about the pain of childbirth, "it's nothing you can't put up with for an hour". That gives an idea about the level of pain and the duration of it, doesn't it? (My mom is a very realistic, sound-sense, skeptical person that doesn't believe in creating alternate realities, Universe hearing our thoughts, etc.) And she fully admits she was lucky.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chapluqa*
> 
> I don't blame individual women if they have such crappy birth experiences. As mentioned above, it is largely a result of patriarchal control over women's bodies which defines our maternity system. It's not the fault of individual women but it's certainly our collective responsibility to reclaim our bodily autonomy.
> 
> I daresay that way, way back (and perhaps in the few matriarchal societies left today) when pregnancy and childbirth were regarded as 'strictly women's business' and were the provenance of multigenerational communities of women sharing collective wisdom, they were simply regarded as a normal events in a woman's life rather than 'the most dangerous thing a woman will do in her lifetime'. Even just a few generations ago most women would have had first-hand experience of attending births, learning from women breastfeeding in the community, and taking care of infants while growing up - while sadly today we need to read stacks of books, attend classes and hire experts to teach us these essential skills of womanhood.


The lifetime risk of maternal death is 1 out of 16 in sub-Saharan Africa, for childbirth and pregnancy related complications (compared to 1 out of 4000 risk here in the patriarchy). I don't know what most women there learn about childbirth, but I'm willing to bet some of that knowledge is "she was in awful pain, and she's now dead, because no one could help her. I hope I survive." Seriously, if every 16th woman I know died in childbirth, I wouldn't feel like a powerful earth goddess, I'd be scared.

The figure for Afghanistan is 1 out of 8.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> This idea that bad childbirth experiences are "largely a result of patriarchal control over women's bodies" is just not right. Maybe *some* of them are, but many others are traumatic just all on their own.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> The lifetime risk of maternal death is 1 out of 16 in sub-Saharan Africa, for childbirth and pregnancy related complications (compared to 1 out of 4000 risk here in the patriarchy). I don't know what most women there learn about childbirth, but I'm willing to bet some of that knowledge is "she was in awful pain, and she's now dead, because no one could help her. I hope I survive." Seriously, if every 16th woman I know died in childbirth, I wouldn't feel like a powerful earth goddess, I'd be scared.
> 
> The figure for Afghanistan is 1 out of 8.


I'm sorry, I realize you are two different posters, but I think this should be pointed out in regards to "This idea that bad childbirth experiences are "largely a result of patriarchal control over women's bodies" is just not right."

These two countries, in addition to poverty and bad healthcare access, etc. have HORRIBLE patriarchal control over women's bodies - FGM in Somalia, in Afghanistan, childbrides are having their first babies very young, domestic abuse/rape are huge issues.

Maybe this is why we shouldn't be comparing women birthing in US/Europe to women birthing in developing, war torn countries with terrible women's rights.

Honestly I don't know why women are telling other women how they should feel about their birth experiences. I realize it goes BOTH ways.

I think this ideal of "perfect birth" is silly, we don't apply that to anything else... is there a myth of "perfect marriage"? Do we tell women they shouldn't feel bad about their divorces? Or that if they had done x, y, z, everything would have been perfect and it's their fault? Ehh... if that happens, I guess I just haven't seen it. I guess I wouldn't be surprised though, it's fun to be judgey on the internet....


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

*


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

*


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Double Double -

Ahh, ok, I totally agree that mother nature can be terribly cruel sometimes. I personally feel that she gets a lot of things right, a lot of the time... but there are no gaurantees or absolutes in life. haha maybe that is an absolute - no absolutes!!

I still think it is problematic to be using Somalia and Afghanistan to show what "natural birth" is. Abuse and FGM aside, we can say famine could be mother nature, but I'm pretty sure she didn't intend women to be covered in burqas = low vitamin D = rickets. There are just a lot of other social/political/cultural/economic factors going on that "mother nature" is not responsible for.

I agree that sometimes the rhetoric among the NCB community has gone too far. However, I think it was mostly in reaction/response to the standard medical rhetoric on childbirth which dominates. I know there is a backlash going on. Hopefully things can improve because the macro rhetoric/attitudes of both movements/systems does hurt a lot of women. I do not think anyone should be telling a woman how to view/feel about her birth experience.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

This thread is about a lot of things...one of which is how our expectations shape our birth experience.

And I think it's really important to understand that a woman who is processing her birth (no matter how it went) and/or coping with a trauma has a really different relationship to expectations than a woman who is preparing for a birth (especially a first birth). Birth is such a big unknown, and so for the woman preparing to birth, it makes sense to do a lot of research, learn about all the possible things that might happen during birth, understand what options will be available to her in different scenarios, etc. Putting birth in a cultural context, having a theory about how to make it the best possible birth...these are important tasks for the soon-to-be-birthing woman. It's a nice idea that we can all do this work & preparation while at the same time letting go of all expectations, but in reality I think only a few enlightened souls really have that capacity. We enter our labors with expectations & with hopes. That's just how it is.

But for many of us, perhaps most of us, birth is going to present things that we don't expect, and that's why we also have to put our faith in something, because there are unknowns and the only tool we have to face the unknown is faith. We put our faith in our caregivers or a system of care, or in our bodies, or in our belief in something bigger than ourselves to carry us through.

And then the birth happens. And sometimes our expectations are met & our hopes are realized & our faith appears to be rewarded. And sometimes, there is disappointment, trauma, and betrayal of faith. Sometimes we're happy, sometimes we're not. Many of us have an experience that is a jumbled up mix of things that don't necessarily make logical sense. But whatever expectations we had, they are in the past now. The birth is no longer a theoretical future thing, it is a known past thing. Our expectations ring true or they ring false. Our faith is strengthened or it is betrayed. Our relationship to those expectations has shifted, and the conversation has to shift, too.

To praise or blame ourselves or other women for our expectations & hopes is to give them a power that they don't have. Yes, there is a body-mind connection and yes how we think about birth matters. But that doesn't mean that our expectations and hopes have the power to determine the outcomes of our births. Our expectations & hopes are important because they are pieces of our stories and our stories matter. But our birth experiences are not narratives to be written by our minds.

As I've been processing my birth experience, I have found that the most healing and beneficial thing is just have space to tell it like it was, and to feel that my story is heard & valued. And for some reason, this is a very difficult thing for us to do in community, especially when it comes to difficult experiences.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I share Turquesa's sentiment about this all being a "first world problem". That's something you say when someone complains about their smart phone being on the fritz, not something you say to women who are talking about the issues of bodily integrity and self-determination, which is generally what discussions about childbirth are about. If you want to say it applies equally to a woman's right to choose how to she gives birth, you might as well apply it to EVERYTHING. Wish your kid's cancer treatment didn't make her so ill? That's a first world problem. Some parents don't have any options for treating cancer at all. Upset about the idea of your employer not covering birth control? Pshaw! Such a first world problem - some women don't have access to any form of birth control. Fighting your employer to pay you for those 30 hours of overtime you worked last month? Really, you shouldn't complain. There are people in the world who would love to get paid $35/hr. What makes you think you deserve overtime, too? It's a pathetic argument used to shame women into keeping their thoughts to themselves.

It's funny to come across that argument on MDC, because where it's most usually thrown about as if it actually has any merit is on that blog, and after reading another nonsensical tirade over there, complete with nonsensical comments about what a "first world problem" wanting bodily integrity and the right to make one's own decisions in childbirth was, I was discussing it with my husband. It seems to me like it fits right into Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. No one in their right mind would say, about ANY OTHER TOPIC, that once you've got your basic physiologic needs met, you should just give up. It's absurd on the very face of it. And yet for some reason, many otherwise rational, intelligent people, will say it about childbirth. I think it has nothing to do with what one really thinks, and everything to do with supporting the idea that we aren't really entitled to seek out anything more than what we get. We should take it and shut up, because that's what's comfortable for certain people.

OP, I'm glad you had a satisfactory birth experience. Let your family members and friends process theirs however they want. It's not your place to tell them how they feel is wrong. I think it's terrible that women ever act like other women have failed when they require a c-section. I also think it's terrible that women ever act like other women have nothing to complain about if they have one that they are upset about. There IS a lot of luck in childbirth. There are some things that no amount of preparation can fix. You can read all you want and educate yourself as much as possible, but if that baby is transverse and isn't budging, you're getting a c-section, whether you like it or not. No shame in that, but certainly a woman has a right to be upset that she had to undergo surgery to give birth. I would feel that way - not because I felt like a failure (how the heck would it be my fault?) but because I don't WANT a c-section scar and I don't WANT the added risk that comes to me and my baby from having one and I don't WANT to be recovering for that long. There's nothing wrong with being upset over those things. There's something very, very wrong with telling a woman that if she is, it's because she went into it with the wrong mindset, just as there's something very, very wrong with telling a woman that if she had only done something better, she wouldn't have needed a cesarean.


----------



## tangledblue (Apr 5, 2008)

nm


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> This thread is about a lot of things...one of which is how our expectations shape our birth experience.
> 
> ...










This is the heart of the matter. Before my birth, I read many books on hypno and other strategies, took classes, spoke with women in my family and was overall VERY confident in my ability to control pain (I have a high tolerance anyway, practice yoga, etc.) and give birth naturally - expecting not a pain-free experience, but a natural and positive one. I believed that my body was made to do this, that this type of birth was critical to my son's future health and development, that I had to be on my toes because the medical community was out to get me, etc. etc.

I was in labor for 40+ hours. I delayed going to the hospital for about a day and a half, staying in communication with my OB-GYN. I was a newbie and GBS+ so when my water did break, I waited several hours and then decided to go in at the urging of my doc.

DH was essential in dealing with the medical staff and the onslaught of procedures/meds/etc. pushed on me. I wanted natural - I brought my own ball, my zen music, my birth plan. Yet I had been in labor so long without sleep that I was a little delirious. My cervix wasn't dilating. They broke the bag in a lower spot (my first concession) to release more fluid and try to "jumpstart" dilation. Well, that dropped the entire baby on a shut cervix that couldn't budge and sent my pain level through the roof.

I was exhausted, and this new level of pain just felt wrong. Enter epidural (second). Then, they said I needed pitocin (third). THEN they finally realized it was scar tissue from my previous cervical surgeries that was halting dilation, and "broke" my cervix manually (this I would have required an epidural for anyway). Jumped to 6 cm from 3 cm! Enter pitocin...and more pitocin...and more (they were freaked out about the 24 hour mark - like it was the strike of midnight in Cinderella







).

Eventually, after two tears (2nd and 3rd degree) my son arrived. It took a long time for us to really bond. There was no real stars-in-the-eyes, super lovey dovey moment right then. And there were alot of tears shed during my labor, and more grief than disappointment. I was really very upset about the whole experience for a long time. I felt I had let myself down - I had let my husband down - I had let my son down.

That is my story - everyone should be encouraged to share theirs, to deal with it in their own time and their own way. It is what it is. Everyone deals with things differently - everyone makes some choices they like, some they regret. We process some things quickly, others slowly. That is life in general. Why should birth, the very act of introducing new life, be any different? We needn't chastise ourselves or blame others for our hopes and expectations, but we shouldn't tolerate condescension or discrimination either. Can't we just respond with a listening ear, with kindness and respect, instead of judgment?


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

One last note: in the final phase as I was pushing, my contractions slowed to 7 or 8 minutes apart - which the doctors had never seen before and thought was totally weird. Just saying, birth is as individual an experience as a fingerprint.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

@DoubleDouble (can't quote the quote): "if evolution and Mother Nature cared that much for birth success, the first menstruation would come after the age of 20, when the bones stop growing (actually pelvic bones keep growing and spreading till old age.)"

I have to disagree there. While I think 12 is too young for birth success in most women, it's not necessary to be as old as 20. I've known multiple women who have had their first baby at 17 (and a couple at 16), and they have, by and large, some of the best/easiest birth stories I've ever come across. And, I don't think that first menstruation is a prime time to get pregnant, anyway. That may be a biological flaw, but I still think it's true. Most women I've ever talked to had at least a few irregular cycles in the early days, and everything took a while to settle in. That doesn't suggest to me that we're really biologically meant to conceive right at puberty, yk?

That said, I don't think the idea that patriarchy and conditioning is the cause of childbirth pain makes any sense at all. Whenever I hear this, I can't help but wonder, if childbirth pain is all about conditioning, then how did that conditioning every get started? I do think conditioning and horror stories can make it worse (aside from anything else, people tend to tense up when they're worried, afraid, etc. and that will make the pain worse, all by itself). I do think external forces (from little things like light levels or discomfort, to induction, all the way to the extreme forms of FGM) can make also make the pain worse. But, I'm not on board with the belief some people seem to have that birth/labour pain is some kind of mental construct. (I've heard the same about menstrual cramps - mostly from men, unlike the labour pain thing, which I mostly hear from women - and it's bullshit, too.)

I think it's great that some people have pain-free labours. But, that doesn't mean that every woman could have one if she tried hard enough, or wanted it badly enough. (FWIW, I've only had significant amounts of labour with two of my five babies. It hurt. It hurt quite a lot. But, I don't think it was the worst pain I've ever felt and it didn't really bother me very much...except that I was exhausted with one of them, and couldn't sleep. That doesn't mean other women don't have more significant, unbearable levels of pain to deal with.)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> And I also wanted to say that I think it's really hypocritical that some here are insisting that women be allowed to heal from birth issues in their own way but are angered about how some have gone about doing just that. Everyone has their own way of coming to grips with things. The OP and others have had to find their way through this mess and are just expressing what they needed to do to get past it. For pete's sake just let them. It's not like the OP thread crashed in the birth trauma forum and told people they were being ridiculous.


I just went back and re-read the OP. It wasn't about her way through the mess, or what she needed to do to get past it. It was about how other women should feel about their experiences. She was slamming her relatives for being upset about their cesareans, and then basically telling other women how to feel about their births. She touches on the fact that she has a 17 month old, and doesn't otherwise mention her birth at all.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> This thread is about a lot of things...one of which is how our expectations shape our birth experience.
> 
> ...


My expectations absolutely affected the outcome of my births. They did have power. They affected decisions I made, and they affected the way I felt after. I'm not blaming myself or other women for them. I just think it's sad that there is this cult of ideal birth out there that gets perpetuated and that there is this cultural obsession with pregnancy and birth as made evident by all the books, TV shows, magazines, websites, seminars, classes, etc that are out there. Of course there are financial reasons in the form of advertising revenue, book sales, fees, and so fourth to perpetuate all of this. It's hard not to get caught up in it. But not all that long ago, women had few expectations about birth and did little in the way of preparation. There was no nine months of researching every single detail. I'm not saying I wish things would go back to the good ol' days of little to no information, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit far in the other direction.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I just went back and re-read the OP. It wasn't about her way through the mess, or what she needed to do to get past it. It was about how other women should feel about their experiences. She was slamming her relatives for being upset about their cesareans, and then basically telling other women how to feel about their births. She touches on the fact that she has a 17 month old, and doesn't otherwise mention her birth at all.


Slamming? Really? That is not how I read it at all. I guess we all have our own perception of things. I thought she felt they had been sold a bill of goods and felt empathy for them. Maybe that's because that's how I feel though.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

And the OP said she had an emergency c-section.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Serial posting, sorry. But I just wanted to mention that what I was talking about with all the researching and information and media leading to some possibly unrealistic expectations is indeed a "first world" problem. I'm not sure that's how the PP who brought that issue up meant it, but I think it's a legitimate issue to look at critically. So many women seem to be having such a hard time dealing with having a less than supposedly perfect birth, and I personally think at least sometimes that is due to external pressures. I hear so many mothers at playgroups and the park and wherever trying to justify to themselves and others why they had a c-section or Pitocin whatever as if they had committed a crime. It's sad. I don't mean that in a judgmental way like they shouldn't feel bad and should just be happy their baby is alive. I mean it's sad that such a culture has been created where women feel bad about their births because they didn't fit some ideal that wasn't necessarily even hers to begin with. I think in other parts of the world, a live mama and baby is enough and there might be something worth learning from that. And that doesn't mean we should all just accept the status quo or women who are unhappy should be shamed into keeping quite. Women can have whatever feelings they like about their births. I'd just like to see a world where those feelings were always truly her own.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> My expectations absolutely affected the outcome of my births. They did have power. They affected decisions I made, and they affected the way I felt after. I'm not blaming myself or other women for them. I just think it's sad that there is this cult of ideal birth out there that gets perpetuated and that there is this cultural obsession with pregnancy and birth as made evident by all the books, TV shows, magazines, websites, seminars, classes, etc that are out there. Of course there are financial reasons in the form of advertising revenue, book sales, fees, and so fourth to perpetuate all of this. It's hard not to get caught up in it. But not all that long ago, women had few expectations about birth and did little in the way of preparation. There was no nine months of researching every single detail. I'm not saying I wish things would go back to the good ol' days of little to no information, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit far in the other direction.


Thank you for this comment, as it makes me think more carefully about my previous statement. Like you, I feel that my decisions during labor and my recovery afterwards were very shaped by my expectations. I was sure that interventions would be the kiss of death for my labor, and so I held off for many exhausting, unproductive hours before agreeing to pitocin. And my cervix didn't open until I got an epidural, which was well past 24 hours after my labor started. I have often wondered if I had come into labor with a different mindset if I would have accepted interventions sooner and had a better shot at a vaginal birth, since I would have still had some energy left by the time I got to the pushing stage.

When I said earlier that our minds can't write the stories of our births, I was thinking more about the mindset that we should be able to use our brains to create specific physiological results in our bodies, something I thought I was seeing in previous posts, and I have certainly seen elsewhere on MDC. For example, the idea that by thinking in a positive way, a woman can make her cervix open or make her baby reposition itself. In a similar vein, I have seen it suggested that women should banish all negative thoughts and emotions prior to labor and should focus only on "positive" stories about birth, since the presence of "negative" thoughts (such as imagining the possibility of anything other than a peaceful vaginal birth) is enough to trick our bodies into doing something less than perfect.

I bought into this a bit myself. I did a lot of chanting during my labor, saying things like "I'm helping my baby" and "I can do this" over and over again. During several hours of pitocin labor with no pain medication, I chanted these positive affirmations over and over again. I think the act of making tones and modulating my breath was moderately helpful. But honestly, if I had intoned "goddam motherfucking cocksucker" I doubt the outcome would have been any different than it was. After several hours, the pain was completely unmanageable, and my body still was not responding the way that I expected it to.

So, I think my views are actually not that different from yours, but I appreciate that we can keep this conversation going to move towards greater clarity.

I also want to add that I realize there's always the risk when talking about birth that our own personal experiences will seem universally applicable. Since I had a difficult labor and many of the strategies for achieving a natural birth didn't work for me, I am a skeptic that these are magic bullets for anyone. But perhaps it is a norm that women can control their cervixes through positive visualization and I am an outlier? Perhaps the only honest thing we can say is "we don't know." The woman whose positive birth experience seems to flow from her preparation may indeed have simply prepared better than the woman who had a rough time. But I guess my inclination is to say, "we can't know for sure."


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Slamming? Really? That is not how I read it at all. I guess we all have our own perception of things. I thought she felt they had been sold a bill of goods and felt empathy for them. Maybe that's because that's how I feel though.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lulu0910*
> 
> After having my 17MO lately I've been on a "One born every minute" "baby story" don't know the name of it on Discover health about birth? kick. In all of these and including myself (emergency C-section) all ask for the same thing drug free natural birth. *That is what we are trained to believe that we have to have.* After watching so many of these show the "perfect birth" theory just doesn't exist. *I watched my SIL and friends despair over having a c-section. They all felt robbed of what??? Seriously what??* *We are led to believe* that c-sections are evil and that they are done 99 percent of the time because we have sadistic dr's that are knife happy. *So not true a doctor and a midwife are there for the baby. * *Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life*. Rather then push "perfect birth" push your baby will come out the way that suits him/her best.


Maybe "slamming" is the wrong word, but I see no empathy here at all. She doesn't mention that her SIL or friends have ever mentioned wanting a perfect birth. She states as a fact that the way you have your baby doesn't take away from your happiness (ie. it didn't take away from hers), even though that's clearly not true of her SIL and friends. This is just one more person deciding that since she's okay with her c/s, and it was necessary, then everyone else should be okey, too, and that theirs were also necessary. "So not true"?? Seriously? what does that even mean? Her doctor/midwife was a good care provider, therefore every c/s that's done really is necessary? We've been "trained to believe" we have to have a perfect birth? Because....that's the only reason someone might be upset about a c-section???

My sister, who was, and is, all about the "epidural in the parking lot" flat out told me that she couldn't understand why I was so upset about having a c-section, and then having a second one. Then, a few weeks after dd1 was born, she had her twins, and her second one was a c-section. And, she told me it wasn't a big deal, and she still didn't understand why I was upset. And...a few months, or maybe a year, later, she told me she "wouldn't wish a c-section on my worst enemy". My mom, who had her first baby in 1963, when nobody was talking about "natural birth", and who fully expected that having a baby was going to hurt like hell, was devastated by her c/s.

Some people buy into the perfect birth thing, and then have a bad experience, and believing they could have a "perfect birth" makes that harder to take. I get that. That doesn't mean that's the case for everybody who has a negative birth experience.

Some people have c-sections that are absolutely necessary to save the baby's life, and, in some cases, the mother's life. I get that. That doesn't mean that every c-section that's done is necessary.

And, if having a c-section wasn't important to the OP, because the way the baby comes out doesn't take away her happiness, that's great. I get that. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to someone else.

Her entire viewpoint here is contradictory. She wanted a perfect birth, but is okay with her c-section, and the way her baby arrived doesn't take away from her happiness. So...the fact that her SIL and her friends are upset about their c-sections is because they expected perfect births? If expecting a perfect birth is the reason for being upset about a c-section, then why is the OP spouting out stuff like, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life."? She wanted a perfect birth, and is okay...so obviously, whatever's going on with her SIL and her friends isn't just about having wanted a perfect birth, is it?

OP can feel whatever way she wants about it. If she wants to say, "whatever way my baby comes out doesn't take away from the happiness and joy I experience for the rest of my life", then she can have at it. Deciding why other women feel the way they feel is not even remotely a demonstration of empathy, and neither is assuming that their negative emotions are caused by the things she's assuming they're caused by.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Serial posting, sorry. But I just wanted to mention that what I was talking about with all the researching and information and media leading to some possibly unrealistic expectations is indeed a "first world" problem. I'm not sure that's how the PP who brought that issue up meant it, but I think it's a legitimate issue to look at critically. So many women seem to be having such a hard time dealing with having a less than supposedly perfect birth, and I personally think at least sometimes that is due to external pressures. I hear so many mothers at playgroups and the park and wherever trying to justify to themselves and others why they had a c-section or Pitocin whatever as if they had committed a crime. It's sad. I don't mean that in a judgmental way like they shouldn't feel bad and should just be happy their baby is alive. I mean it's sad that such a culture has been created where women feel bad about their births because they didn't fit some ideal that wasn't necessarily even hers to begin with. * I think in other parts of the world, a live mama and baby is enough and there might be something worth learning from that.* And that doesn't mean we should all just accept the status quo or women who are unhappy should be shamed into keeping quite. Women can have whatever feelings they like about their births. I'd just like to see a world where those feelings were always truly her own.


I disagree. A live mama and a live baby are a good goal. But, if a live mama and a live baby are "enough", then a care provider is entitled to do whatever he/she feels necessary to achieve that goal, no matter what damage it does to either the mama or the baby.

Mind you, I don't hear mothers trying to justify why they had a c-section. i read about it online, but I've never actually come across it in real life. The one person who went into detail about why she had her c-section, in my hearing, was a friend who had her baby 22 years ago. She was the first in our circle to have a baby, and none of us had ever really thought a lot about this stuff (me possibly more than average, simply because of my mom's scar, but even I hadn't given it much thought yet - I was a few years away from starting a family). She talked about it a lot, but she wasn't trying to justify it to anybody, because there was no pressure from anyone else about it. She was trying to cope with it, because she was devastated.

I think the reason this topic gets to me so much is that it drives me nuts when people perpetuate the idea that someone who is upset about being cut into, sometimes against their will, is just some spoiled, First World brat mourning a "perfect birth". I hate surgery. I had cosmetic surgery to fix a lazy eye when i was 23, and swore I'd never have surgery again, unless it was a matter of life and death. And, not a year and a half later, I was cut open, after I refused consent, for reasons nobody has ever been able to explain to me (ds1 was frank breech, but our hospital had a vaginal breech birth protocol at that time). It's effing insulting to me, and to women like me, to spout off about how women only care about c-sections, because they're living in some kind of perfect birth La-La Land.

I agree with your last sentence, btw. I just don't think the OP does. Her first post certainly doesn't seem to be on board.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Serial posting, sorry. But I just wanted to mention that what I was talking about with all the researching and information and media leading to some possibly unrealistic expectations is indeed a "first world" problem. I'm not sure that's how the PP who brought that issue up meant it, but I think it's a legitimate issue to look at critically. So many women seem to be having such a hard time dealing with having a less than supposedly perfect birth, and I personally think at least sometimes that is due to external pressures. I hear so many mothers at playgroups and the park and wherever trying to justify to themselves and others why they had a c-section or Pitocin whatever as if they had committed a crime. It's sad. I don't mean that in a judgmental way like they shouldn't feel bad and should just be happy their baby is alive. I mean it's sad that such a culture has been created where women feel bad about their births because they didn't fit some ideal that wasn't necessarily even hers to begin with. I think in other parts of the world, a live mama and baby is enough and there might be something worth learning from that. And that doesn't mean we should all just accept the status quo or women who are unhappy should be shamed into keeping quite. Women can have whatever feelings they like about their births. I'd just like to see a world where those feelings were always truly her own.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I disagree. A live mama and a live baby are a good goal. But, if a live mama and a live baby are "enough", then a care provider is entitled to do whatever he/she feels necessary to achieve that goal, no matter what damage it does to either the mama or the baby.


Perhaps we need to distinguish between a perspective that might help a grieving mother understand her experience vs. one that would be used to shape birth care.

Now that I'm 3+ years out from my c-section, I do have moments when I think, "I'm here, DD's here, we're alive and life has moved on. That's good." And that's a comforting thought to me. Obviously, it's not going to be a comforting thought to everyone, but it's OK if a mama arrives at that conclusion on her own and finds that it works. It's something I would never say to a mother by way of solace.

And I 100% agree with Storm Bride that if the "live mama/live baby" goal is a minimum standard for birth care, with no regard for many other desirable outcomes, we are all in big trouble.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I disagree. A live mama and a live baby are a good goal. But, if a live mama and a live baby are "enough", then a care provider is entitled to do whatever he/she feels necessary to achieve that goal, no matter what damage it does to either the mama or the baby.


I'm talking about this on more of an individual level not a large scale healthcare kind of level. I don't think women trying to keep things in perspective allows caregivers to do anything they want. I'm not suggesting anyone just takes what she can get as long as everyone comes out alive.

Quote



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Mind you, I don't hear mothers trying to justify why they had a c-section. i read about it online, but I've never actually come across it in real life. The one person who went into detail about why she had her c-section, in my hearing, was a friend who had her baby 22 years ago. She was the first in our circle to have a baby, and none of us had ever really thought a lot about this stuff (me possibly more than average, simply because of my mom's scar, but even I hadn't given it much thought yet - I was a few years away from starting a family). She talked about it a lot, but she wasn't trying to justify it to anybody, because there was no pressure from anyone else about it. She was trying to cope with it, because she was devastated.


And that's perfectly understandable. I'm not saying that women can't have their own feelings about their births. I'm saying that I do hear many mothers IRL beat themselves up for things they feel they didn't do right based on some ideal standard, and I think it's unfortunate that that's what things have come to.

Quote



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I think the reason this topic gets to me so much is that it drives me nuts when people perpetuate the idea that someone who is upset about being cut into, sometimes against their will, is just some spoiled, First World brat mourning a "perfect birth". I hate surgery. I had cosmetic surgery to fix a lazy eye when i was 23, and swore I'd never have surgery again, unless it was a matter of life and death. And, not a year and a half later, I was cut open, after I refused consent, for reasons nobody has ever been able to explain to me (ds1 was frank breech, but our hospital had a vaginal breech birth protocol at that time). It's effing insulting to me, and to women like me, to spout off about how women only care about c-sections, because they're living in some kind of perfect birth La-La Land.


That's certainly not what I'm suggesting.

Quote



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I agree with your last sentence, btw. I just don't think the OP does. Her first post certainly doesn't seem to be on board.


I think we just have a different take on the OP based on our own experiences. I see frustration, and you see judgment. Maybe we're both wrong or the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Who knows? But I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

edited to fix typos and add something


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> Thank you for this comment, as it makes me think more carefully about my previous statement. Like you, I feel that my decisions during labor and my recovery afterwards were very shaped by my expectations. I was sure that interventions would be the kiss of death for my labor, and so I held off for many exhausting, unproductive hours before agreeing to pitocin. And my cervix didn't open until I got an epidural, which was well past 24 hours after my labor started. I have often wondered if I had come into labor with a different mindset if I would have accepted interventions sooner and had a better shot at a vaginal birth, since I would have still had some energy left by the time I got to the pushing stage.
> 
> ...


Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> When I said earlier that our minds can't write the stories of our births, I was thinking more about the mindset that we should be able to use our brains to create specific physiological results in our bodies, something I thought I was seeing in previous posts, and I have certainly seen elsewhere on MDC. For example, the idea that by thinking in a positive way, a woman can make her cervix open or make her baby reposition itself. In a similar vein, I have seen it suggested that women should banish all negative thoughts and emotions prior to labor and should focus only on "positive" stories about birth, since the presence of "negative" thoughts (such as imagining the possibility of anything other than a peaceful vaginal birth) is enough to trick our bodies into doing something less than perfect.


Absolutely yes. I have seen this type of pressure fall also on cancer patients, where the 'power of positive thought' is supposed to be so healing that well, if you're not in remission, your thoughts must just not have been strong and positive enough. What a burden of guilt to add to an already suffering person.

Quote:


> But honestly, if I had intoned "goddam motherfucking cocksucker" I doubt the outcome would have been any different than it was.


Totally. In my first birth I recall screaming "No," "I can't," "I'm not having a contraction" (I was), and "I changed my mind, I don't want a baby." In my second I yelled "No no no! Shit!" over and over again until she crowned, and then I screamed "Oh no, get back in there, that hurts!" Yeah, not my proudest moments. If birth outcomes depended on chanting positive, calming thoughts I'd be in trouble.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I bought into this a bit myself. I did a lot of chanting during my labor, saying things like "I'm helping my baby" and "I can do this" over and over again. During several hours of pitocin labor with no pain medication, I chanted these positive affirmations over and over again. I think the act of making tones and modulating my breath was moderately helpful. *But honestly, if I had intoned "goddam motherfucking cocksucker"* I doubt the outcome would have been any different than it was. After several hours, the pain was completely unmanageable, and my body still was not responding the way that I expected it to.
> 
> ...


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I also want to add that I realize there's always the risk when talking about birth that our own personal experiences will seem universally applicable. Since I had a difficult labor and many of the strategies for achieving a natural birth didn't work for me, I am a skeptic that these are magic bullets for anyone. But perhaps it is a norm that women can control their cervixes through positive visualization and I am an outlier? Perhaps the only honest thing we can say is "we don't know." The woman whose positive birth experience seems to flow from her preparation may indeed have simply prepared better than the woman who had a rough time. But I guess my inclination is to say, "we can't know for sure."


I think this is very honest and rings true. I think the tone of this thread has turned into the "preparing for a positive, natural birth totally DOES work and works out beautifully" camp vs. "preparing for natural birth sets women up for failure and is an illusion" camp, and I think that is missing the point. When we say one or the other, we are letting our personal experience cloud the conversation - in the EXACT same way the OP did, when she posted seeking consensus that she could rubber stamp all of her friends experiences in the same color as her own.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Some people buy into the perfect birth thing, and then have a bad experience, and believing they could have a "perfect birth" makes that harder to take. I get that. That doesn't mean that's the case for everybody who has a negative birth experience.
> 
> ...


Every woman is entitled to her own hopes and expectations, her own preparations, her own feelings after the fact, and an endless combination of reasons for them. Making generalizations in order to validate your own experience (which is what I feel OP was doing) is impossibly misguided. There is no need to stuff all the square pegs around you into a round hole, just because that's your shape. We could learn alot more just by listening to each other, supporting each other, and celebrating the diversity of experiences (which we will realize could have easily been our own, if we take our ego out of it).


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Mind you, I don't hear mothers trying to justify why they had a c-section. i read about it online, but I've never actually come across it in real life. The one person who went into detail about why she had her c-section, in my hearing, was a friend who had her baby 22 years ago. She was the first in our circle to have a baby, and none of us had ever really thought a lot about this stuff (me possibly more than average, simply because of my mom's scar, but even I hadn't given it much thought yet - I was a few years away from starting a family). She talked about it a lot, but she wasn't trying to justify it to anybody, because there was no pressure from anyone else about it. She was trying to cope with it, because she was devastated.


For example, I find this very interesting. Personally, I have felt the impulse myself to justify every medical intervention in my labor, and have many friends who have done the same (for everything from c-sections to epidurals to pitocin). Some of these were medically unavoidable, some were personal choices, for reasons such as pain relief. And you're right, for me, part of that is coping with it and forgiving myself - but part of the reason I feel the need to forgive myself is from perceived pressure from the "how natural was YOUR birth" pissing contest - part of it is feeling like I didn't handle the situation to the best of my ability, part of it is any effect it may have had on my son, etc. Just goes to show how differently women process things - like I said before, we need to respect the diversity instead of trying to pigeonhole everyone.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

*


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> For example, I find this very interesting. Personally, I have felt the impulse myself to justify every medical intervention in my labor, and have many friends who have done the same (for everything from c-sections to epidurals to pitocin). Some of these were medically unavoidable, some were personal choices, for reasons such as pain relief. And you're right, for me, part of that is coping with it and forgiving myself - but part of the reason I feel the need to forgive myself is from perceived pressure from the "how natural was YOUR birth" pissing contest - part of it is feeling like I didn't handle the situation to the best of my ability, *part of it is any effect it may have had on my son*, etc. Just goes to show how differently women process things - like I said before, we need to respect the diversity instead of trying to pigeonhole everyone.


This part makes me feel bad sometimes. One of my main frustrations with birth interventions, in general, is that I truly don't believe we (midwives, doctors, etc.) know enough about what the long term effects can be. The entire process of labour, birth, bonding, establishing breastfeeding, etc. is so much more complicated than people treat it as being, yk?

Maybe I just don't run into the pissing contest aspect of it, because I'm the one who's really upset about my c-sections, and I don't think they were necessary in the first place. I can't justify them, because I don't believe they're justified. So, it's just not something I've ever run into.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> *What I see* on these forums, pretty often by the way, is the attitude "I sought the perfect birth, I had it, and if you didn't, that's because you didn't work hard enough for it, and you are an epic fail because of that". Not nice. And it's also a form of control. And that's what (I think) is the topic of this thread.
> 
> ...


I'm catching up on posts in this thread, and this one caught my eye. Take a look at the words that I've emphasized.....all extremely subjective terminology!

Your impressions seem to be based not on evidence or actual things that women have said, but on "what I see," "insuations," and a "vibe." A woman describing a personal birth experience that she considers beautiful and idyllic is "gloating" (even though it's impossible to prove that that was her intention!), and from the phenomenon of orgasmic birth, you've somehow gleaned that it's considered a "requirement." What I'm trying to say--as delicately as possible--is that these messages are coming from within yourself--your own perceptions and projections--and not other women.

As has been reiterated in this thread, we each experience something unique during childbirth. And we each are the judges of our own experiences and authors of our own life narratives. We have no right to step in and write other women's narratives for them. This means that we accept a woman's story at face value for its validity. This means that we respect and honor every lived experience from the traumatic birth to the orgasmic one!

A woman who has a great birth and feel that her own diligence paid off is sharing her personal experinece, not super-imposing it on everyone else. I'm pretty damned diligent and had an excrutiating first birth, but I'm not going to take it out on other women or accuse them of demeaning me just because they had better experiences.

We tread into murky territory when we start accusing women of saying things they didn't say and doing things they didn't do. If anything is going to fan the flames of what you call a Mommy War, it's going to be our personal sensitivities, defensiveness, and projections.

I no longer post much about my personal experience because I no longer feel that this is a safe and supportive place to do so. I really don't want to be judged as "whining," "First World," and "wanting a Perfect Birth" if I write about a bad experience...or "gloating" or making nasty "insinuations" if I write about a good one. If more people listened with non-judgmental ears and responded with non-judgmental keystrokes, I'd probably be a lot more active in this forum.

I have to say in all fairness, however, that I'm impressed with the direction that this thread has taken and the overall civil and insightful dialogue that is ensuing here.....


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> I no longer post much about my personal experience because I no longer feel that this is a safe and supportive place to do so. I really don't want to be judged as "whining," "First World," and "wanting a Perfect Birth" if I write about a bad experience...or "gloating" or making nasty "insinuations" if I write about a good one. If more people listened with non-judgmental ears and responded with non-judgmental keystrokes, I'd probably be a lot more active in this forum.
> 
> I have to say in all fairness, however, that I'm impressed with the direction that this thread has taken and the overall civil and insightful dialogue that is ensuing here.....


I agree with you.

I also think we have to keep in mind that a lot of the topics on mdc are not practiced/accepted by the vast majority of society - hb, uc, extended bfing, alternative vaxing, non-circ, homeschooling, etc. None of these choices are "easy" especially when you face resistence/rejection in real life, maybe that makes some people a little bit sore about the topic to begin with, and maybe a little too excited to find like-minded people. Also in terms of all these judgemental crunchier than thee moms... there are crappy judgemental people in all segments of society, just because someone is into homebirth doesn't mean she's a perfect angel. Dealing with crappy people is part of life. Ignore them, avoid them, confront them, whatever you feel is best. I haven't been around here forever, but lurked a lot several years ago. I saw that a lot of times, when someone went over the top in the crunchy judgment dept, she got called out on it. Now we are in a backlash here where there are people judging others for being upset about their c/sections... so I guess we just have to deal with this too... stop posting and reading here, or call them out on it, those are our options I guess. I am not petty or spoiled because I want to make certain choices for myself or my children. We aren't complaining about designer shoes here... we are talking about our health, our bodies, our babies. and NO ONE should be telling a woman how to feel about her personal experiences, especially the life-altering, major event experiences.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> I'm catching up on posts in this thread, and this one caught my eye. Take a look at the words that I've emphasized.....all extremely subjective terminology!
> 
> Your impressions seem to be based *not on evidence* or actual things that women have said, but on "what I see," "insuations," and a "vibe."


Ok, I'll provide the evidence - it is sad that I have to prove that it's not "all in my head". All the quotes are from *one* thread only that I linked to previously. Imagine what else is out there, I just don't have the energy to look for it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wildwomyn*
> 
> After I had my c-section, I was honestly glad that I hadn't really posted much here and that no one would notice if I never shared a birth story. Because I knew it would wind up in me being told that I was duped and naive and maybe I would be able to have a baby the right way someday if I tried hard enough.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *caedenmomma*
> 
> I joined MDC after an unexpected emergency c-section and felt kind of alienated sometimes and like I shouldn't admit I had to have one. I can't be the only one who has felt that way.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amma_mama*
> 
> My whole pregnancy and birth experience was not what I had hoped for or planned. I ended up with severe pre-term labor and was on strict bed rest for a good chunk of my pregnancy, then ended up with an emergency c-section, which the docs were actually trying to AVOID due to my condition. But it was what it was. [...]
> I have pretty much avoided the Birth forums at MDC, as I did not have the "right" kind of birth experience. I did not want to "mourn" the loss of my perfect birth, nor feel traumatized. It is like MDC wants people like me to end up with PPD because I did not have a fantabulous homebirth or UC experience. [...]
> It would be nice to have a place on MDC to share my experience, without pity or judgment.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*
> 
> Both [cesarean] experiences impact my life. Both made me feel alienated when I came back to my friends here to share the experience. It didn't matter that I cloth diapered for 6 years straight, breastfeed, including tandem, for 7-8years, babywore, heck, just go down that NFL checklist, I did it. I also homeschooled and had a SN kiddo and dealt with all of that. But every time I mentioned my births, there was either an undertone of "well, if you had done _____ than you could have controlled it", or "your doctor lied", or "well, *maybe* you were one of the few", or I was accused of promoting birth with interventions because I dare be happy about my (second) experience. Why am I not allowed to be at peace with and proud of how I birthed my children? I am nearly a decade away from that first birth and my reception I got here afterwards still makes me angry.


Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MeepyCat*
> 
> And now, two years post-c/s, I still feel that I can't talk about my daughter's birth here, because it was surgical, but I didn't feel traumatized or upset by it.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wildwomyn*
> 
> It seems fairly obvious that one of the primary reasons people are asking for a c-section forum is so that there would be one place on the board where women who had a c-section and weren't traumatized by it would be able to mention this fact without being told to shut up, sit in a corner and think about what we've done, and come back when we feel bad like we should.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EuroMama*
> I just would love a place, where I can share about my section and not feel like I committed the worlds biggest crime.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rutabega*
> Being supportive of natural birth isn't the same thing as marginalizing women who have had c-sections, absolutely right. And yet that has been the clear point of view of the Mothering community at large as long as I have been reading here (which is much, much longer than I've been registered as a member).


Quote:


> Originally Posted by Wildwomyn
> 
> A pro-NCB environment doesn't have to marginalize women who had c-sections, but this place always has, and it is completely disengenous to pretend otherwise.


 Quote:



> Originally Posted by *EarthMamaToBe*
> 
> That is the vibe here. If you had a section it's YOUR fault for not birthing 'right'


Ok I'll stop now. I guess I am in a good company of "extremely subjective" people with similar "projections".


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

In my experience, the language of birth and mothering is so polarized in our culture. It feels to me like I'm either in the natural birth camp, or in the epidural/hospital/c-section camp, and there's no middle ground, you know? For example, how many of us have heard totally inflammatory statements about homebirth? How it's dangerous or selfish or other things like that? On the other side of the coin, I recently saw an article in Harpers with the title "The Tyranny of La Leche League." My point isn't to take sides, but just to point out here that the language surrounding mothering and birthing choices is so intense and polarizing. The "TYRANNY," I mean just listen to how that sounds. Wow. I just often feel, IMO, that there's a real lack of middle ground that allows for all women to feel that they can celebrate whatever birth experience or mothering choices they make.

One of the midwives who attended my homebirth/transfer/c-section birth told me she would never put my birth story on her website because it wasn't a home waterbirth. She didn't want any c-section stories on her site.

This upset me a little because the truth is that some women need c-sections in order to survive, and for their children to live. I was one. And while I understand her perspective, it saddened me that she only really wanted to "talk" about ideal births she attended. It was clear that my birth wasn't viewed as "ideal," or "beautiful" to her, and that saddened me. I was healthy, my son was healthy, and born just the way he needed to be. But I felt like when my birth was said and done, it wasn't, I guess, embraced as a birth worth trumpeting about in the same way natural, vaginal home waterbirths were. I mean, IMO, the very best HB midwives are the ones who know when to say when. They know when to say- this is beyond what we can take care of at home, and it is time to seek other tools, and more intervention. I am thankful my midwives did that. If they hadn't, my son and I wouldn't be here. I guess I was left feeling, in my experience anyway, that my birth should've been viewed as just another type of birth that HB midwives sometimes attend. But it wasn't. Instead, it was a birth that was... less, in some way.

Anyway, just my two cents on my own experience. I think this thread is very interesting!


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Double Double, the women you quotes fear being judged, just as I do, albeit or different reasons. But it's not evidence that anyone here has said, "You had a Cesarean and not a natural birth? Oh, you bad, bad, inadequate woman!".. It's also not evidence that someone gloated, "I had a Perfect Birth, and you didn't! Ha! Ha!". I'm just cautioning against reading into women's stories and posts for things they never said.

Now I definitely agree with a previous poster that marketers in the childbirth ed industry are shameless about promoting a Perfect Birth in order to sell women on their products. That's not to say that individual CBE's aren't more realistic while teaching the classes. But just as self-help authors promise perfection in your relationships and diet programs promise the Perfect Body, various childbirth programs mislead us into believing that they have the magic-bullet method for the Perfect Birth.. This was definitely my experience with Hypnobirthing, in which we watched video after video of women "breathing down" their babies.







. Those videos forgot to mention that at least one of us would be pushing for 4 hours, and all of the cutsey calm-blue-ocean visualizations in the world wouldn't take the agony away.







. But I digress....


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Turquesa-

That was my experience w/Hypnobabies (similar to Hypnobirthing). The course emphasized the "Bubble of Peace," in which you visualized being totally calm and at peace with your baby, and didn't allow in any "negative" birth stories or talk. The course actually tells you to put up your hand and say "stop" when another woman tries to tell you about a painful/difficult birth.

While I see the point of this approach, I felt like I shouldn't read anything about anything other than ideal, painless birth, otherwise it could actually cause my hypnosis training to fail me.

Cut to my 70 hour labor followed by a c-section, and I was totally unprepared for everything that happened, and I felt like a complete and utter failure.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> Double Double, the women you quotes fear being judged, just as I do, albeit or different reasons. But it's not evidence that anyone here has said, "You had a Cesarean and not a natural birth? Oh, you bad, bad, inadequate woman!".. It's also not evidence that someone gloated, "I had a Perfect Birth, and you didn't! Ha! Ha!". I'm just cautioning against reading into women's stories and posts for things they never said.
> *Now I definitely agree with a previous poster that marketers in the childbirth ed industry are shameless about promoting a Perfect Birth in order to sell women on their products.* That's not to say that individual CBE's aren't more realistic while teaching the classes. But just as self-help authors promise perfection in your relationships and diet programs promise the Perfect Body, various childbirth programs mislead us into believing that they have the magic-bullet method for the Perfect Birth.. This was definitely my experience with Hypnobirthing, in which we watched video after video of women "breathing down" their babies.
> ...


This isn't a digression...it's at the heart of the issue. To the extent that natural birth has become a product that someone can market, it does promote an image of perfect birth, and that is detrimental to women. Partaria's examples of a midwife who won't post a c-birth story on her website and a childbirth prep class that doesn't allow discussion of difficult/painful labor are heartbreaking, in my opinion. This is the kind of thing that creates an environment where women feel pressured to have a perfect birth and feel inadequate if they don't.

It's ironic...as I understand it, the natural birth movement really grew out of the desire to reclaim women's experiences and put women's wisdom at the center of birth. And yet we still struggle to validate each woman's experience and it seems radical to assert that women's wisdom can come in many forms, not all of the peaceful, painless, or pretty.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> I'm catching up on posts in this thread, and this one caught my eye. Take a look at the words that I've emphasized.....all extremely subjective terminology!
> 
> ...


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if the Mommy Wars and the perception of a "pissing contest" among women isn't the real issue. The idea that birth is a product that can be marketed seems like a more likely culprit to me. There are certainly individuals and businesses who have a lot to gain by offering women a guarantee of a peaceful, enjoyable birth. And they have everything to gain by making it seem like it's individual women who are to blame for their own difficult experiences, not the method or the product or (gulp) birth itself. There's got to be a middle ground. Not "natural birth is a crock" and not "natural birth is the guaranteed result of a perfect preparation" but something else...


I hadn't thought about that aspect. I wonder if you guys feel this is maybe true for other mommywar/crunchy issues? With more interest in AP/crunchy lifestyle, products catering to that have come to market. I don't think it's bad there are alt. birthing classes or cloth diapers, midwives, slings, etc. for sale/hire ( i like it!), but I can see where "industry" needs to "protect," just like in more "mainstream" industries. And maybe some rhetoric/advertising from industry can have a lot of impact on us, maybe it's not just the other "judgey" mommies online?

Partaria - I'm sorry your mw acted that way ... honestly, I think it would be a good advertising/testimonal to have a transfer/c-sec mom say something - like you said this here :



> IMO, the very best HB midwives are the ones who know when to say when. They know when to say- this is beyond what we can take care of at home, and it is time to seek other tools, and more intervention. I am thankful my midwives did that. If they hadn't, my son and I wouldn't be here.


But I guess she was reacting to what she perceives her customers want...


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> Double Double, the women you quotes fear being judged, just as I do, albeit or different reasons. But it's not evidence that anyone here has said, "You had a Cesarean and not a natural birth? Oh, you bad, bad, inadequate woman!".. It's also not evidence that someone gloated, "I had a Perfect Birth, and you didn't! Ha! Ha!". I'm just cautioning against reading into women's stories and posts for things they never said.


Well there are definitely lots of cases where posters make it clear that they believe they got the births they wanted because they 'did everything right,' implying that if you didn't get the birth you wanted it was because you didn't 'do everything right.' There's an example on page 2 of this very thread actually:

"Eh, I did have "perfect births". I talk about birthing with a huge smile on my face even many years after. Yeah, I did have a midwife, I exercised, took Bradley classes and did the Brewer diet. And it is peaceful post-partum not to have any birth regrets or anger like so many of my friends had. But maybe I was just lucky." (That last thrown in there as a sop to those who would point out the many women who did the same type of preparation but ended up with very different births - but obviously not something this poster really believes very fervently. And the bit about the birth regrets of the friends, doesn't that sound just a little gloaty to you?)

And then there's this on page 3:

"she envisioned the experience she wanted to have and made it happen by actively de-programming herself from the mainstream expectations of birth as horrible and painful. I don't think she was just 'lucky'"

I wouldn't say that labor preparation makes *no* difference, because I believe I've read that there have been studies showing that women who do birth prep classes are more likely to end up with drug-free births (though I haven't read these studies myself so don't know if that's possibly a selection bias effect of the women who choose to take the classes in the first place). It's perfectly reasonable to believe that preparation makes *some* difference. But there are still tons of cases where things are just not going to go perfectly, and labor prep/positive thinking/whatever is just not going to cut the mustard to turn a transverse baby, drop a skyrocketing blood pressure, reverse disseminated clotting, or whatever.

By having a natural vaginal birth be 'lucky' I don't mean that it's rare, lucky like one-in-a-million-lucky. But regularly lucky, in the sense that things went normally well and didn't go wrong in the way that they a minority - but a significant minority, not a tiny rare minority - of the time.

Now painless (unmedicated) labor, that's lucky like the rare kind of lucky. My mom got that kind of lucky. (She doesn't do 'active de-programming by envisioning the experience' - she is a very nuts-and-bolts kind of person. No labor prep.) It exists, but I don't think it's very common.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

She totally is reacting to what she thinks her customers want. I mean, she and I had a very candid conversation about it, and she wasn't rude to me by any means. She put this question to me: "Would you have hired an HB midwife with c-section stories on her site?"

And you know, now that I have a more realistic understanding of birth, having gone through it, the answer is yes. Yes I would. But when I was shopping around before I had my son? No. In fact, one of my questions when I interviewed MWs was "what's your c-section rate?" I think I came to HB with this silly idea that I would be ENSURING beyond all doubt that I wouldn't have a c if I went this route. I am not saying all HB mamas think that, and I am not saying that the HB movement promises that. That was simply my desire and my perception, and I take responsibility for that.

That said, I really did have to honestly answer that no, given my attitude and ignorance before I had my first baby, I would probably not have hired that midwife. I do think it's a vicious cycle, though. I mean, what if all the HB midwives in my area had a collection of stories on their sites that showed the full spectrum of birth? I mean in that case, perhaps it would've become clear to me that all birth outcomes are possible with any care provider. I did come to HB with this poorly founded attitude that it would guarantee me a natural birth. But, I do have to say, none of the childbirth educators or midwives or folks I encountered in the world of NCB did much to dispel that idea.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Hmmmm...the plot thickens.

Every source I read prior to birth said to ask about a care provider's c-section rate, because a rate that is "too high" is a "red flag." Our local birth center proudly states that they have a very low c-section transfer rate. It is a point of pride, but more than that, I think we use c-section rate as a overall indicator of competence and as a natural birth litmus test.

Maybe it's time to rethink that.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Maybe so. There was a midwifery practice here that I also interviewed. I liked them, but their c-section rate was higher than the midwife I went with. Later I found out that they tend to take on tougher cases, and that might actually be why they have a higher c-section rate, not because they are less skilled or anything.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

This is really all fascinating. I completely would have been the same as Partaria. There is such a huge gulf between the rates that the WHO recommends that are 10-15% that seemingly truly are too low to expect and a place like Brazil where the section rate is 90%.

While I have completely let go of judgment regarding how a woman chooses to birth (in most cases), I still think the "system" is broken and it needs to be fixed.

Frankly, I'm not sure there's an answer or a complete resolution to this whole thing.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Well there are definitely lots of cases where posters make it clear that they believe they got the births they wanted because they 'did everything right,' *implying* that if you didn't get the birth you wanted it was because you didn't 'do everything right.' There's an example on page 2 of this very thread actually:


Well, it's ultimately up to these posters to speak for themselves, so I'll be careful with my interpretation. What I'm hearing is that they are as concerned as the rest of us (whether we've chosen natural childbirth out-of-hospital, in-hospital epidurals, elective, repeat cesareans, etc.) of their birth stories getting dismissed. "Oh, you had a good birth? Well, you were just lucky...."

But again, it's best to get actual clarification directly from them and to be careful of the word "implying"; I don't consider it a synonym for "stating." Implications are based on inference, and inference is based on our own biases and subjectivity.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if the Mommy Wars and the perception of a "pissing contest" among women isn't the real issue. The idea that birth is a product that can be marketed seems like a more likely culprit to me. There are certainly individuals and businesses who have a lot to gain by offering women a guarantee of a peaceful, enjoyable birth. And they have everything to gain by making it seem like it's individual women who are to blame for their own difficult experiences, not the method or the product or (gulp) birth itself. There's got to be a middle ground. Not "natural birth is a crock" and not "natural birth is the guaranteed result of a perfect preparation" but something else...


This conversation is taking a fascinating turn! So it's not just childbirth ed programs sending out the Perfect Birth message&#8230;..it's providers, as well! It's everybody trying to woo us into parting with our dollars. Gotta love living in a consumerist culture....

Now I realize that Partaria's midwife runs a business, and businesses only publish positive client testimonials. (To get the full picture, you obviously need to go to Yelp, The Birth Survey, Health Grades, and similar consumer-driven rating sites). But this midwife went so far as to censor even a *positive* client testimonial about a hospital transfer, (a move that's not only unethical and disingenuous, but also foolish in the long run because, as you said, a positive transfer story bodes well for a midwife). But in all of this, she's trying to mislead maternity care consumers into thinking that if they use her services, they'll have an ideal birth experience.

Equally frustrating, however, are the hospital websites and brochures: "Come give birth with us! Just look at our homey interior decorating, big bath tubs, and state-of-the-art technology! You're in great hands with us!"

Good grief! Just ponder the mixed messages that women are getting. On the one hand, your providers assure you that have so many satisfied clients and will give you an idyllic experience with the birthing tubs, epidurals, yoga balls, rooming-in suites, aromatherapy, high-tech monitoring, or whatever is applicable to your hospital or homebirth service.

But then-THEN!-if you question what happened to you after the fact&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


It must have been something YOU did wrong, (you didn't focus well enough on your $%$#%# Calm Blue Ocean, you didn't think enough positive thoughts, you ate too much or exercised too little during pregnancy, you didn't cooperate with the doctor, you didn't stick with your Brewer Diet, it serves you right for attempting a homebirth, you declined that 11th vaginal exam, etc.)

AND/OR&#8230;.


Naughty Mommy! How dare you act so spoiled ? You're lucky to be living in an industrialized country! The doctor/midwife did all s/he could! The important thing is that you and the baby (and sometimes not always the baby L) are alive and healthy!

As I process the ideas in this thread-along with so many of the birth stories shared on MDC-it's becoming clear to me. Apparently, women are not storming into hospitals and homebirth services as spoiled brats demanding the Perfect Birth; they were misled to believe that such an experience was theirs to begin with! I'm shamelessly speculating here, but perhaps that's why I hear so many women (including myself and Partaria) use words like "robbed," "betrayed" and "utter failure" when they describe their feelings toward their birth experiences&#8230;.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> This is really all fascinating. I completely would have been the same as Partaria. There is such a huge gulf between *the rates that the WHO recommends* that are 10-15% that seemingly truly are too low to expect and a place like Brazil where the section rate is 90%.
> 
> ...


I just want to point out that the WHO no longer publishes guidelines for recommended c-section rates. Here are the WHO guidelines on reproductive & maternal health: http://www.who.int/publications/guidelines/reproductive_health/en/index.html

No mention of c-section there. If someone can find it on the WHO site, please post! But I believe it has been several years now since any recommendation for c-section rates was mentioned.

There may be some way of determining an appropriate c-section rate, but it's no longer coming from WHO.

(I'm not trying to jump all over you Youngfrankenstein, I just want to make this point since it's one of those lingering things that pops up on MDC from time to time).


----------



## Bekka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> In fact, a recurring theme for me during the past 3 years is giving up on the notion that there is one perfect way to do this...and by "this" I mean, birth, parenting, and integrating a tough experience into my life. My labor had it's own time frame and it's own trajectory, and my recovery is the same.


I don't have a lot a lot to contribute to this discussion that hasn't been said already, but THIS is absolutely the truth. Parenting is hard, birth is hard, life has risk and all those things are part of risk. My husband reminds me all the time that we keep defining a "new normal" with every new adventure.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I just want to point out that the WHO no longer publishes guidelines for recommended c-section rates. Here are the WHO guidelines on reproductive & maternal health: http://www.who.int/publications/guidelines/reproductive_health/en/index.html
> 
> ...


This is good to know. It did seem concerning that this number that was being thrown around kept going. It seemed a bit dangerous. I will say that even if the WHO doesn't recommend it anymore, I do still hear it a lot as an ideal.


----------



## saritap (Nov 10, 2005)

You have to imagine telling your child their birth story. There they are, sitting wide eyed, staring off into the distance. You don't want to be saying "and then your heart rate DROPPED, and we were so SCARED, and they raced us to the EMERGENCY". These stories break your heart over and over again, each time you tell them. And what a thing to give to your child! "I almost died. I almost died. I almost died".

Tell a different story! "And after we had been at the hospital awhile, the doctor, who your mommy liked and trusted, decided she would help you come out! We were so happy to see your sweet face!". You feel better telling the story that way. Your child feels wonderful hearing that kind of story.

Every baby was born however they were born. We can't change that. But a birth story is POWERFUL. A child needs to hear that they were brought into this world calmly, sweetly, happily. You can find those details, whether it was just "and daddy held my hand and I was so glad to know he was there". Even if you had a true, life-threatening emergency, you can find those details and then tell JUST those details, spin it however you need to. The more you tell your "version" of the story, the more you feel it inside you. I promise, not because I am making it up, but because I do it every night when I tell my daughter her story, and the story of her brother's birth. She doesn't need to hear about fear and blood, just calm and gentle, warm and safe.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> I'm catching up on posts in this thread, and this one caught my eye. Take a look at the words that I've emphasized.....all extremely subjective terminology!
> 
> ...


I'm not going to go back through old threads and post examples, but I have seen women here directly challenged when they've stated they needed a cesarean. I've seen it said here that there is nothing natural about a hospital birth. I could go on, but there is proof in the archives here that the things DoubleDouble brought up are not all just her perceptions or projections. Maybe things have changed recently, but there were some very outspoken members when I was here last. Given how long you've been a member, I'm surprised you never saw any of that.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *saritap*
> 
> You have to imagine telling your child their birth story. There they are, sitting wide eyed, staring off into the distance. You don't want to be saying "and then your heart rate DROPPED, and we were so SCARED, and they raced us to the EMERGENCY". These stories break your heart over and over again, each time you tell them. And what a thing to give to your child! "I almost died. I almost died. I almost died".
> 
> ...


Wow... I don't know if I am misreading here... but it sounds like you are suggesting women ignore/hide/reprogram themselves to erase the birth trauma they feel they experienced!! The more they repeat the "good" version the more it becomes true!!! Would you ever say that in any other circumstance - like to a woman who had some other major life trauma - like divorce, abuse, accident, loss, etc. ?? And even not in cases of "trauma" but just disappointment/difficult recovery... women aren't allowed to be anything but "stepford" birthers?

This really gives a free pass to any hcp to do what they want and mom needs to deal with it and suppress her upset afterwards! I'm not only talking dr, nurses here, but mws, family too.

Good thing I mostly up/uc'ed, I only have myself to blame. I have a pretty gruesome/profanity laden birth story I wrote a week post partum... I would never tell that version to my kid... well maybe when she was a teen or adult I will! While she's small she can hear the simplified version. I highly doubt the moms around here upset with their birth experiences are unloading that onto their 4 yos!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> I'm not going to go back through old threads and post examples, but I have seen women here directly challenged when they've stated they needed a cesarean. I've seen it said here that there is nothing natural about a hospital birth. I could go on, but there is proof in the archives here that the things DoubleDouble brought up are not all just her perceptions or projections. Maybe things have changed recently, but there were some very outspoken members when I was here last. Given how long you've been a member, I'm surprised you never saw any of that.


I have seen that too abby, and I have also seen *a lot* of women come here and ask - was my c/sec necessary? I've also seen a lot of women say - back when i didn't know better... this time i will do x,y, z different... and a lot of talk about how to try to avoid c/sec. I have seen a lot of women go into explanation of their first c/sec when asking about chances for vbac, etc.

There is kinda a blurry line which easily gets lost around here when talking about c/sec, bfing, etc. On mdc, in general, c/sec is thought by most to be best avoided, and bfing to be encouraged. Some women will always need c/secs and some can never breastfeed. A lot of women didn't need c/secs and could've breastfeed - but got failed by someone along the medical line. Not everything we talk about when trying to avoid c/sec or encourage bfing is meant to be a personal attack/judgement on a mom who needed c/sec or couldn't bf. I know there are sometimes offensive things, but in general, I don't think that is the overall intention. And anyway, it seems like things have so changed around here - to the point of same judgement opposite angle...


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> Wow... I don't know if I am misreading here... but it sounds like you are suggesting women ignore/hide/reprogram themselves to ignore the birth trauma they feel they experienced!! The more they repeat the "good" version the more it becomes true!!! Would you ever say that in any other circumstance - like to a woman who had some other major life trauma - like divorce, abuse, accident, loss, etc. ?? And even not in cases of "trauma" but just disappointment/difficult recovery... women aren't allowed to be anything but "stepford" birthers?
> 
> ...


It's so interesting how things can be interpreted so differently. I got something completely different from that post. My daughter has started asking more and more about her birth lately, and it has been so helpful for me to share it with her. It's not a matter of ignoring anything, just focusing on the positive which has been a tremendous comfort to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> I have seen that too abby, and I have also seen *a lot* of women come here and ask - was my c/sec necessary? I've also seen a lot of women say - back when i didn't know better... this time i will do x,y, z different... and a lot of talk about how to try to avoid c/sec. I have seen a lot of women go into explanation of their first c/sec when asking about chances for vbac, etc.
> 
> There is kinda a blurry line which easily gets lost around here when talking about c/sec, bfing, etc. On mdc, in general, c/sec is thought by most to be best avoided, and bfing to be encouraged. Some women will always need c/secs and some can never breastfeed. A lot of women didn't need c/secs and could've breastfeed - but got failed by someone along the medical line. Not everything we talk about when trying to avoid c/sec or encourage bfing is meant to be a personal attack/judgement on a mom who needed c/sec or couldn't bf. I know there are sometimes offensive things, but in general, I don't think that is the overall intention. And anyway, it seems like things have so changed around here - to the point of same judgement opposite angle...


I agree that simply talking about avoiding c-sections or encouraging breastfeeding or whatever is not necessarily an attack on anyone. But there has been explicit judgment.

As far as things swinging the other direction, I think there is just more diversity in opinions now in no small part due to the changes here in moderation and the user agreement. There does seem to be a backlash to some extent. I think there's some healing to be done, and I think some are still playing with their newfound freedoms. Maybe things will even out after awhile though.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> As far as things swinging the other direction, I think there is just more diversity in opinions now in no small part due to the changes here in moderation and the user agreement. There does seem to be a backlash to some extent. I think there's some healing to be done, and I think some are still playing with their newfound freedoms. Maybe things will even out after awhile though.


I suppose/hope it will even out. I am sick of seeing this "anti-crunchy" backlash around here, and trollish things going on in uc/vax/traditional foods/schooling boards. I know the "over" crunchiness upset a lot of people in the past too, and now it's the reverse so it seems. I used to lurk a lot before my daughter was born, stopped reading when she was small, and just started posting now. Some of my favorite, very knowledgable posters (who I don't remember being offensive/judgey) are gone. Maybe it was just their time to move on and not related to other issues around here.? who knows.

Slightly ot, but not really... Abby, I saw your thread about book suggestions... and I have to say I HATED "Birthing From Within." I couldn't even finish it. I read Laura Shanley's uc book, and that was the most blatant example I saw of - "what your beliefs are = the outcome." I thought her story was interesting but don't buy that line of thought. Sure I think if you go into something with a bad attitude, it is probably not going to go as well as it could. That line of thinking has recently been popular with things like "The Secret" too, right? Maybe that also influenced women to think they could believe in "perfect births"? And I guess the whole natural/home birth movement already has so much adversity to face, they don't really like to talk about some of the hard realities?

I also have an issue with the phrase "trust birth." I understand what it was going for... but it is obviously too simple and misleads a lot of women. I think it was mostly in response to medical treatment of pregnancy/birth being a pathology and female body being inherently flawed.

I really hope things can get evened out/developed for the better.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *saritap*
> 
> You have to imagine telling your child their birth story. There they are, sitting wide eyed, staring off into the distance. You don't want to be saying "and then your heart rate DROPPED, and we were so SCARED, and they raced us to the EMERGENCY". These stories break your heart over and over again, each time you tell them. And what a thing to give to your child! "I almost died. I almost died. I almost died".
> 
> ...


I trust my mother more than anyone else in the world, except dh. The reason? Because, I know that she would never make up such nauseating pap in an attempt to spare me from reality. Her birth stories are her stories, and they're not fiction. She doesn't lie to me to make me believe we live in a world of prancing unicorns and sparkly rainbows, and I wouldn't trust her if she did.

And, I won't tell any such story to my children, either, because that's not even remotely what happened - not even once. I don't go into details about exactly what went down, because I don't see any reason to do so. But, I'm not going to make up some bs story about "the doctor, who mommy liked and trusted, decided blah blah blah", because it's not true. The doctors who made the call for my c-sections were not people I liked, and they definitely weren't people I trusted.

And, I do tell my version....not your version...mine.

ETA: I also don't feel better telling the story that way. I tried ti (internally) for a long time. It made me feel like crap, because it's just not true. Sure - it was great to see my baby's faces, but I wasn't happy. I wasn't even close to happy. And, when I first saw ds1, I was so drugged up (with medications I'd never consented to, but that's standard hospital practice, and the only ones who ever see an issue with it are people who are given stuff they don't want) that I didn't even know I'd had a baby. I had no idea where I was, or what I was doing there, or why I was in so much pain...and can't even imagine how bad the pain must have been, honestly, because that was through a hardcore morphine haze. He was perfect, and I fell in love as soon as they put him down beside me...but I wasn't happy.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

@saritap:

A birth story is powerful, you are right. But I think it only retains its power if it is honest. And I wonder if you are conflating honesty with stark, gritty realism. I doubt most moms on here are telling their toddlers about things like pools of blood and near-death. That's the down and dirty realism part that you don't have to share with your kiddo. At least, not when they're wee. But you can still be totally honest, even if you don't go into those exact details.

When I had my son, I wrote a version that was as gritty and detailed as I needed it to be. It was for me. In his baby journal, I wrote a version for him. But I will say that both were very truthful. I didn't include things in his such as "I felt like a failure," or "I was afraid that I wouldn't survive this" or "and your heart rate dropped and everyone freaked the **** out."

But I did write the truth. That we tried to birth at home for days, and he was stuck, and we didn't know. And finally, we went to the hospital, because mommy was tired and because the midwife had no more tricks up her sleeve, so to speak. We found out that he couldn't come to us. Instead, he needed us to go pick him up. And he told us this by his heartbeats getting quiet, which worried us. And we knew it meant that he needed us to come get him as soon as possible so he could be safe. So we listened to him and did exactly what he needed. We went and got him. Mommy went into an OR and let the doctor make hole in her, and the doctor pulled him out. Everyone was very worried about him and about mommy in the waiting room, and when he was born, a mighty shout went up and our midwives and doula were crying tears of joy because there was so much love for him and because we were so relieved to finally be meeting him.

I hope that from this story, my son learns that life does not always go to plan, and that sometimes, you have to make room for what _is, _especially if it contradicts what you wanted (something i'm still working on). I also hope he learns that his parents hear him, and respond quickly and to the best of their ability when his safety is in question.

That, to me, is the power of telling the birth story to my son honestly and calmly.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

I guess it was the way saritap worded things. as a directive rather than a personal anecdote, that rubbed people the wrong way. I think she was just trying to offer up something that helped her and apparently felt pretty strongly about it since it's the first and only thing she's posted in six and half years. I'm pretty sure she didn't mean to tell your children her story or to imply anyone was telling their children horror stories or to flat out lie to your children or to tell anyone to stuff feelings of complete and total betrayal of medical staff or to give health care providers a free pass. I think she was just suggesting that one can change the way they feel about an event by reshaping how they look at it and by letting go of certain feelings. It can be very empowering and liberating for some people. And this can be done for all kinds of disappointment and trauma. Maybe I'm projecting though.







I just think it would be nice if intentions were taken into consideration. I think it's kind of sad when people share honest feelings with the intention of helping only to be met with hostility and ridicule. I'm not saying people can't be questioned or corrected, but I don't see the need to belittle.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> I guess it was *the way* saritap *worded things*. as a directive rather than a personal anecdote, that rubbed people the wrong way. I think she was just trying to offer up something that helped her and apparently felt pretty strongly about it since it's the first and only thing she's posted in six and half years. I'm pretty sure she didn't mean to tell your children her story or to imply anyone was telling their children horror stories or to flat out lie to your children or to tell anyone to stuff feelings of complete and total betrayal of medical staff or to give health care providers a free pass. I think she was just suggesting that one can change the way they feel about an event by reshaping how they look at it and by letting go of certain feelings. It can be very empowering and liberating for some people. And this can be done for all kinds of disappointment and trauma. Maybe I'm projecting though.
> 
> ...


Probably this is what happens a lot too, when posters are perceived as being judgey about c/sec or lack of bfing, etc. Sometimes?


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> *I guess it was the way saritap worded things. as a directive* rather than a personal anecdote, that rubbed people the wrong way. I think she was just trying to offer up something that helped her and apparently felt pretty strongly about it since it's the first and only thing she's posted in six and half years. I'm pretty sure she didn't mean to tell your children her story or to imply anyone was telling their children horror stories or to flat out lie to your children or to tell anyone to stuff feelings of complete and total betrayal of medical staff or to give health care providers a free pass. I think she was just suggesting that one can change the way they feel about an event by reshaping how they look at it and by letting go of certain feelings. It can be very empowering and liberating for some people. And this can be done for all kinds of disappointment and trauma. Maybe I'm projecting though.
> 
> ...


Yes. I think it was partially that. It was also the sentiment underlying it:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *saritap*
> 
> *You have to imagine telling your child their birth story. * There they are, sitting wide eyed, staring off into the distance. *You don't want to be saying* "and then your heart rate DROPPED, and we were so SCARED, and they raced us to the EMERGENCY". These stories break your heart over and over again, each time you tell them. And what a thing to give to your child! "I almost died. I almost died. I almost died".
> 
> ...


There are underlying assumptions all over the place in this post. Firstly, I don't tell my children their birth stories every night, and I can't imagine why I would. But, if I did, it would be my birth story, not what saritap bizarrely refers to as "my version" (ie. what a woman on the internet has decided is the way it should be told). My child doesn't need to hear that they were brought into this world calmly, sweetly and happily, when that means I'm stuffing trauma and trying to put on a happy face that doesn't exist. They weren't brought into the world that way, not even close.

I never felt wonderful about the way I was born, and my mom never once talked about fear, blood (there wasn't any, in a scary sense, anyway - I was a planned repeat c-section) or her issues around her birth. But, I knew what scars meant, as I'd seen injuries in other people, and had a few minor ones of my own. And, if my mother had tried to spin my birth into some "calm, sweet, happy" event, I'd have known she was lying, because scars all the way down a woman's abdomen don't say "calm, sweet and happy" to a child. They just don't. And, you know...my older kids have watched me go through the painful recoveries from my later c-sections, so any "calm, sweet, happy" story would be an obvious lie. I don't think I'd have ever forgiven my mother for lying to me about something so profound, and I'm pretty sure dd1 would never forgive me if I did that (The others? maybe - but dd1 has a similar temperament to me in some ways).

And, Abby - I honestly have no idea how anybody could read her post and not think she was implying that other women tell their children horror stories. Her entire post pretty much boils down to "you can't tell them the fear and blood horror story, so spin a fairy tale". And, if birth stories are so important, and we're to tell JUST "those details", then ds1's birth story, as he'd have heard it would have been "I laboured at home for about a day, then went to the hospital to get checked out, and then they put you on the stretcher beside me and I fell in love". I'm pretty sure that even a child would figure out, pretty quckly, that I was skipping an awful lot. But, *there are no details* in between that I'm okay with, and there's nothing in there to tell ds1 if I want to create a fairytale of "you came into the world calmly, sweetly and happily".

Her post was all about lying to kids, because she says, in so many words, "*A child needs to hear* that they were brought into this world calmly, sweetly, happily." Therefore, she's saying that, if a mother didn't have a calm, sweet, happy birth, she needs to lie to her children.

I get that we all have different perspectives, but I honestly don't see how anybody can see this post as anything but an advisory to lie to our children if we didn't have good births. That's exactly what it is. And, the way she presented the options as either "tell them the horror story, complete with blood and fear" or "we were so happy - you had a calm, sweet, happy birth" makes my head hurt. With one exception, when my son didn't live, I didn't have a single "birth" that fell into either of these categories (lots of fear with all of them, but no life threatening emergencies - not even close).


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *saritap*
> 
> *You have to imagine telling your child their birth story. There they are, sitting wide eyed, staring off into the distance. * *You don't want to be saying "and then your heart rate DROPPED, and we were so SCARED,* *and they raced us to the EMERGENCY". These stories break your heart over and over again*, each time you tell them. And what a thing to give to your child! "I almost died. I almost died. I almost died".
> 
> ...


To me this is about reframing the way one looks at her birth experience by looking at it through the eyes of her child to help herself as much as for the benefit of her child. I think people here have admitted they don't tell the ugly details which is sort of the point. It wasn't until my daughter starting asking about her birth recently that I realized how powerful this could be. It obviously won't work for everyone, but that's okay. Different things work for different people. It's helped me tremendously to come to terms with some things. That doesn't mean I'm lying to my child or living in a fantasy world. And honestly, even if it does, I don't give a shit. It's much better on this side of things.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> To me this is about reframing the way one looks at her birth experience by looking at it through the eyes of her child to help herself as much as for the benefit of her child. I think people here have admitted they don't tell the ugly details which is sort of the point.
> 
> It wasn't until my daughter starting asking about her birth recently that I realized how powerful this could be. It obviously won't work for everyone, but that's okay. Different things work for different people. It's helped me tremendously to come to terms with some things. That doesn't mean I'm lying to my child or living in a fantasy world. And honestly, even if it does, I don't give a shit. It's much better on this side of things.


I just posted a long reply. I'm deleting it, because this thread is getting too heated. Suffice it to say, I disagree with saritap about pretty much everything she said, as well as finding her tone extremely off putting. And, I've spent a great deal of time working on reframing my "births" in various ways. But, all the reframing in the world isn't going to make them "calm", "sweet", or "happy".


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

StormBride, if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you. I don't think saritap had you specifically in mind when she posted. She posted something that worked for her most likely with the intent to help others. Maybe she was too excited about it the same way some people are when they post all giddy about breastfeeding or babywearing or whatever...hey everyone should try this, it's awesome! I get being put off by that but not to the point of inciting such contempt. I'm off to go play with my prancing unicorns now.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> StormBride, if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you. I don't think saritap had you specifically in mind when she posted. She posted something that worked for her most likely with the intent to help others. Maybe she was too excited about it the same way some people are when they post all giddy about breastfeeding or babywearing or whatever...hey everyone should try this, it's awesome! I get being put off by that but not to the point of inciting such contempt. I'm off to go play with my prancing unicorns now.


Gah...never mind. I deleted another one. Saritap's post was awfully full of "you" and "have to" and "need" for it to be about what works for her, but to each their own. For some reason, you really see her post as something kindly meant and I simply don't.

FWIW...I never thought or felt it was aimed at me, specifically. It wasn't aimed at anyone specifically. It was a blanket law about what children need, and what moms "have to" do. If I'd thought it was aimed at me specifically, it wouldn't have bothered me at all.


----------



## UnassistedMomma (Jan 24, 2006)

I felt myself getting drawn into the warm fuzzy of it... but then it just felt so.... dismissive. Didn't sit right.


----------



## Lynann (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm one of the mamas who posted about getting the "perfect" birth and it not being just "luck." My first birth was anything but easy. I did end up transferring to a hospital from a home birth for a legal rather than a medical reason. The transfer led to interventions that led eventually to a c/s, after 37 hours of labor with contractions no further apart than 5 min from the start.

So I did some things differently for my HBAC 15 months later. Some of those things helped to make a difference. Things like taking high doses of vit c from 20 weeks to strengthen was amniotic sac because my previous labor started with rupture of membranes. Being more focused on proteins in later pregnancy so I didn't have the same issues of protein in my urine at the end. The biggest one though was learning how to deliberately relax internal pelvic muscles so the baby didn't get stuck. Those things are NOT just down to luck. For ME they made a difference. I was able to birth a bigger baby with a nucal arm with only 20 min of pushing. Some of it was out of my control, but not all of it. I call it a perfect birth because it was perfect for ME. It was intense. It was painful. DH says our bedroom looked like an animal had been slaughtered in there. But it was intimate. It was as relaxed as a painful experience can be. It was timeless (I couldn't have told you how long anything took and only know because of being told how long things took.) It was the birth that I needed after the experiences of the past. It restored my confidence in my ability to birth my own children.

I still have some issues I'm processing from the birth of my oldest son, and from the way our miscarriage before him was handled, but the birth of my second son was a perfect as I could ever imagine birth to be.

When I first started reading this thread I thought it was about the perfect birth being a myth. To me it isn't as I had one that was perfect to me. The myth aspect I guess depends on how you define a perfect birth. It seems most don't get what they would have defined perfect to be, so to them it appears to be a myth.

If my sons ever ask about how they were born I will tell them. They won't get the blood and gore parts (unless they're adults by then) but I will share how DS1 took a long time and eventually the doctors cut him out and did lots of tests to check that he was healthy. I will share that DS2 had his hand up at his face and still came out quickly. Mostly I will share with both of them how excited we were to finally meet them and to find out they were a boy, as that doesn't change no matter how they came out.

There does seem to be a lot of women still hurting from how they birthed. For those who are still processing, no matter how long it takes, my heart feels for you. I still hurt from DS1's birth maybe even more so after DS2's birth. I do hope that complete healing will come in the right time. I also hope that we can all somehow accept our differences with open hearts instead of feeling judged and needing to defend ourselves. We are all trying to be the best mothers we can, and make the birth choices we do because we love our children and want what is best for them. That is what I thought MDC is all about.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lynann*
> 
> When I first started reading this thread I thought it was about the perfect birth being a myth. To me it isn't as I had one that was perfect to me. The myth aspect I guess depends on how you define a perfect birth. It seems most don't get what they would have defined perfect to be, so to them it appears to be a myth.


Just as we all may have differing ideas of what the "perfect birth" looks like, our sense of what makes up the "myth" probably varies as well.

I would say that there are perfect births, perhaps lots of perfect births. Your example is just one of many. To me, the myth is that a perfect birth is the guaranteed result of a perfect preparation. It's the sense of "guarantee" that to me just feels fundamentally wrong. Nothing is guaranteed. But I would never say that because preparation isn't a guarantee, we shouldn't do it, nor do I believe that luck is always the greatest determiner of our birth outcome. I would just say that there are things in birth we can control, and other things we can't control. We should do our best with the things that we can control. I also believe that our circumstances vary...not every woman has control over the same variables. And the things that we can't control aren't necessarily bad...sometimes they work in our favor. It just depends.

It takes a lot of compassion & wisdom to have this conversation because all of us can be mistaken about where we have control and where we don't. And so we can mis-judge our own situation, let alone someone else's.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Quote:


> To me, the myth is that a perfect birth is the guaranteed result of a perfect preparation.


YES. This is what I also think of when I read the phrase "myth of the perfect birth." I believed in this "myth" and did not have a perfect birth, despite my deep desire for it and incredibly detailed, dedicated preparation. I think that believing that if I just did X, I would get Y made it incredibly hard for me to process my birth. Because I thought making it perfect was entirely within my control, when it didn't go perfectly, I felt like I was the one to blame.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 


> To me, the myth is that a perfect birth is the guaranteed result of a perfect preparation.


What is making women believe this? certain childbirth education classes/techniques, certain books, mws, doula, peers, mdc, other websites, "trust birth" rhetoric? Other cultural issues?

I'm a bit ignorant here - I've been living outside US since before pregnancy, in one of the 80%+ c/s countries, I don't know anyone here who has had a hb, and only a few who have vaginal birth, most of my friends in the US are childless. I did not do any prep classes and met with some mw/doulas/childbirth educators but did not end up using them as resources. I read and saw a lot of info about preparation increasing chances of success, but I was always aware of complications/problems, I guess because I uc'ed and knew that responsibility was all mine (to know when there was a problem I would need to get help for).

The only book I read that was firmly "your beliefs = outcome" was Laura Shanley's UC book.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

*****

I want to respond here but before I do, I want to make a caveat. What I'm about to write is totally my own experience. It includes not only messages I got from the childbirth method I myself selected but my subjective interpretations of those messages. I don't think all women react this way, nor do I think all women choose childbirth methods like the one I chose. So this isn't meant to speak for anyone else's experience. This is just me saying what I personally lived through.

*****

For me, it was just some of the language floating around. I heard over and over "trust your body to birth, it is made to birth, it knows how." I realize that's way short of saying "you can will a perfect birth." And part of the issue was the way I chose to interpret statements like that. But when I had to have a c-section, I thought, 'My body is somehow imperfect and yucky and less than fully feminine. It didn't work the way it was supposed to. What's wrong with me?!'

The childbirth educaiton method I chose was also very laced with this language. It was hypnosis-based, and promised a pain-free birth for most mamas who use it. I was on an email list for people using this method, and when a mother would post a less than ideal birth story that included pain in childbirth, she had to post a warning in the subject line. Why? Because moms who were "in training" weren't supposed to read any birth stories that featured negative things like pain or interventions because it could cause their hypnosis training to not work, and could cause them to have something less than a perfect birth. In the literature with this method, it even discussed how you as a pregnant mom should put up your hand and say "STOP" when someone was telling a birth story that involved pain or a c-section or other interventions. You were to block out all this information because the idea was that believing childbirth could be painful or difficult would cause it to be so. It was called the fear-pain cycle. The method claimed that most women experience pain in childbirth because they expect it to hurt, because our society says it will be painful and difficult. If a woman can free herself from this idea, childbirth is easy and painless.

When women would post stories of how their hypnosis "failed" them, the manager of the email list would frequently say it was because they didn't listen to their cds often enough, or they had unresolved subconscious issues, or they didn't do X or Y. It sort of felt like her responses were there to preserve the power of the all-mighty method by sort of playing blame-game with these women. I emailed this woman and said that I had done everything I was supposed to do and STILL had a c-section, and I was asked if I had considered that there is a mind-body connection, and that perhaps I had subconscious fears about childbirth that led to my baby being unable to make the final turn to a transverse instead of posterior position.

Which I translated, in my head, to be, 'Your baby being OP was your fault.' Kind of like in Peter Pan when Peter asks the audience to clap hard and believe hard enough and Tinkerbell will come back to life. If Tink doesn't revive, well, it really seems like it's your fault for not sprinkling enough pixie dust.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

****Imagine that I put the same disclaimer as Partaria...this is just MY experience, etc.*****

I got my birth information from a variety of sources, some of them crunchier than others, but there were some definite themes that stuck in my mind:

Yes, complications in birth happen, but these are caused by underlying medical conditions and/or unnecessary medical interventions that interfere with natural birth. If you are healthy and you have a normal, healthy pregnancy, there is *no reason* that you can't have a natural birth, as long as you are careful to choose the right care provider (or no care provider), the right setting, and the right birth attitude that will let your body do what it's designed to do.

It wasn't that I didn't hear about complications that could arise in labor. It's that the sources I read had an answer for everything. Failure to progress? That should be called "failure to wait." It's caused by OBs who don't want to be late to their golf game. Stalled labor? Wouldn't happen if women were just given the freedom to move as they wished, unhampered by fetal monitors, IVs, etc. Fetal heart decelerations? Avoid pitocin. Malpositioned baby? Prenatal yoga takes care of that. Maternal exhaustion? Eat and drink during labor, and sleep when you need it. Problem solved. For everything else, the presence of a good doula and/or midwife is key.

As for the whole thing about pain, I was always skeptical that natural birth meant painless birth. But I did buy into the idea that there is a spiritual/mental component to pain and that we can choose the amount of pain and suffering that we feel. By being prepared for pain, and having a variety of tools for coping with it, I would be able to accept it and it wouldn't interfere with my ability to make good choices for the best possible birth.

I take full responsibility for embracing these ideas and thinking that they would protect me from birth trauma. And I was just wrong, wrong, wrong. Maybe the ideas aren't bad; maybe they just didn't work for me. But I wish I'd had a different mental framework that would have helped me better understand what was going on during my labor as it was happening, and would have helped me find an easier path to healing when it was over. In short, I think prior to birth I had something of a "you get what you deserve" attitude about birth, and so when I experienced things like stalled labor, exhaustion, pain, and total confusion about how to make the best decisions to move forward, I felt like I had earned my difficult experience through shortcomings that were not just physical, but spiritual. It has been a long, slow road to greater compassion for myself.

I just want to say, that I know some of you will read my perspective and think that I am a horrible naysayer and natural birth enemy. So I just want to add that I don't wish to undermine the natural birth approach, I just wish for more humility and compassion in the world, which I believe would be healing for everyone.


----------



## SilverSage (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> This comment really set me off, but hopefully, I can be reasonable. First of all..."to me"...so what? If it's your birth you're talking about, then your idea of an ideal birth is relevant. If it's not your birth, then it's not. Four of my five "births" ended with a living mom and a living baby, and they were as far from anything resembling an ideal as it gets. (The fifth left a living mom, who wished she'd died - it wasn't ideal, either.)


I don't know how to get the quote that you quoted included in there, but...The first two words that I said, "To me" imply opinion. The first two definitions of opinion in an online dictionary are:

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Of course my opinion isn't valid for anybody else, no more than yours is. Water is wet and we live on the third planet from the sun. Mine is based on my life experiences. My stepmother died giving birth to my little brother. It shaped a lot about how I see the world. Your life has obviously left you with a different view. It ain't a one size fits all world, as one can see by reading on this forum.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Partaria*
> 
> When women would post stories of how their hypnosis "failed" them, the manager of the email list would frequently say it was because they didn't listen to their cds often enough, or they had unresolved subconscious issues, or they didn't do X or Y. It sort of felt like her responses were there to preserve the power of the all-mighty method by sort of playing blame-game with these women. I emailed this woman and said that I had done everything I was supposed to do and STILL had a c-section, and I was asked if I had considered that there is a mind-body connection, and that perhaps I had subconscious fears about childbirth that led to my baby being unable to make the final turn to a transverse instead of posterior position.


This is the kind of thing that sets me off! Why do so-called "care providers" lay these crazy trips on women who have clearly had a hard time and need support?!?! I mean, I thought that the natural birth community was where people understood that the context in which women give birth matters....and to me this points to a really toxic situation, which is totally dismissive of women, and places some kind of bogus expertise as superior to the reality of women's experiences. There's just something very arrogant about assuming that you know what a woman's deepest subconscious fears are, based on something that happened during her birth.

I think it is very irresponsible of providers of these "methods" to add to the suffering of women who have already been through a rough time. Leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> This is the kind of thing that sets me off! Why do so-called "care providers" lay these crazy trips on women who have clearly had a hard time and need support?!?! I mean, I thought that the natural birth community was where people understood that the context in which women give birth matters....and to me this points to a really toxic situation, which is totally dismissive of women, and places some kind of bogus expertise as superior to the reality of women's experiences. There's just something very arrogant about assuming that you know what a woman's deepest subconscious fears are, based on something that happened during her birth.
> 
> I think it is very irresponsible of providers of these "methods" to add to the suffering of women who have already been through a rough time. Leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.


I am normally pretty defensive about natural/homebirth/uc, what have you, but I have to 100% agree with you here, that is toxic and ridiculous. Just as there are good and bad obs/hospitals there are good and bad mws/cb educators.

How do you think women can better avoid this type of thing? Run from anyone peddling absolutes? Watch out for care providers putting too much of their own agendas on you? (for example I got really turned off from a mw who required me to keep a journal and thought all births involve some sort of psychological crisis/trauma/release -- you know, telling me how my birth would be for me emotionally 20 weeks before birth!). The "victim blaming"/dismissing experiences really really bothers me.

ETA - I think it was partaria who mentioned maybe women shouldn't be soo cautioned against mws with higher transfer rates? When I was looking into hb, that was a pretty standard recommendation, go with low/lowest transfer rate!


----------



## tea_time (Oct 11, 2010)

I have appreciated reading this dialogue and ironically, this very subject is the reason I haven't been to MDC in awhile. I saw the subject in a email from MDC and thought I'd give it a chance.

I had my 2nd baby almost 8 months ago and despite having an unmedicated birth I still had aspects at the end (uncontrolled pushing that lead to significant tearing) that made me feel like a failure. I felt like I failed hypnobabies since I didn't get around to the pushing stage tracks, believing that if I had my outcome would have been different. I also felt like I let down the entire unmedicated birth movement by being the typical screaming, out of control birthing woman when the Dr entered the room. Oh how I lamented that she hadn't seen me in my controlled and calm state all the way up to pushing.  Of course her comments about how if I'd just had an epidural all of the repair would have not been necessary or at least not as difficult (time consuming for her since she had to take the time to numb me several times).

In processing my birth with friends in the months since then I've had the realization that my expectations for a "perfect" and prepared birth are what let me down, not my actual birth experience. I found myself wishing I hadn't spent so much time on MDC or reading all the different birth books, watching films, etc.

I digress. The only women I know who do not have regrets or disappointment are the ones who had very little expectation going in. They were also the ones who don't go to online forums or feel strongly about any particular way to birth. I am very intentional now when talking to my pregnant friends about birth. I used to be more pro-natural/unmedicated births and would push that way as the "right" one when at all possible. I now focus more on encouraging them to be prepared, to research different relaxation options. But more importantly to know that there are many different ways to birth and that having support and a willingness to do whatever is necessary should be a priority.

I actually liked what saritap said about re-framing her birth story. I don't think this will apply in all cases, but it can with me. If I can focus on the many beautiful parts of the birth instead of what I wish had changed I think this will be beneficial for me and also for my daughter someday. However, when she is an adult I will tell her as much reality as she wants to hear.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Serial posting, sorry. But I just wanted to mention that what I was talking about with all the researching and information and media leading to some possibly unrealistic expectations is indeed a "first world" problem. I'm not sure that's how the PP who brought that issue up meant it, but I think it's a legitimate issue to look at critically. So many women seem to be having such a hard time dealing with having a less than supposedly perfect birth, and I personally think at least sometimes that is due to external pressures. I hear so many mothers at playgroups and the park and wherever trying to justify to themselves and others why they had a c-section or Pitocin whatever as if they had committed a crime. It's sad. I don't mean that in a judgmental way like they shouldn't feel bad and should just be happy their baby is alive. I mean it's sad that such a culture has been created where women feel bad about their births because they didn't fit some ideal that wasn't necessarily even hers to begin with. I think in other parts of the world, a live mama and baby is enough and there might be something worth learning from that. And that doesn't mean we should all just accept the status quo or women who are unhappy should be shamed into keeping quite. Women can have whatever feelings they like about their births. I'd just like to see a world where those feelings were always truly her own.


I haven't read past this, but I think if you read my post, you can see that I agree with what you're saying here. What I do not agree with is the way in which other posters like to talk about issues surrounding birth as "first world problems". If you search around on the internet, you'll find that those words are thrown around quite a bit, always by people who are denigrating women for daring to seek out choices in childbirth. It's not about education or processing. It's about a woman daring to disagree with her doctor, or daring to be upset that she was pressured into interventions she truly knows she didn't need. It's essentially about a woman daring to feel that she ought to have control over her own body, even during childbirth. When other people use that term, it's generally used right alongside discussions about how women in third world countries would LOVE to have access to interventions that some of us are trying to avoid, and therefore that somehow means that we aren't supposed to try to avoid them. You aren't using it like them.

I also want to mention seeing a very interesting dichotomy in one of the blog comments sections where I've read other people use the "first world problems" attack against women seeking natural childbirth. In the comments of that blog, where women who felt traumatized or even just sad about interventions used during their babies' births were being discussed, those women (the ones who were upset about not getting an intervention-free, vaginal birth) were mocked and accused of complaining about "first world problems", and it was generally agreed that they had no right to feel that way. However, a commenter who said she was happy with her cesarean and glad she hadn't had to experience a vaginal birth was told that she had every right to feel that way. It's just a given that, in general, when people use that term in these sorts of conversations, they aren't using it nicely. They're using it hypocritically. They're using it to say that it's totally not a first world problem to want to avoid a vaginal birth: Your hooha might get stretched out! You might tear! Your husband might not enjoy sex as much afterwards! Those aren't "first world problems". Being upset that your doctor rushed to a c-section when you didn't think it was necessary? That is a "first world problem". Really. Read around. You'll see the bias and hypocrisy. It's impossible to miss.


----------



## Lynann (Jul 29, 2010)

I do agree that expectations probably have a lot to do with how "perfect" we feel our births turn out. After the experience of my first birth I had very different expectations for my second birth. I expected a very long labor, it turned out to only be 9 hours. (we never even got to eat any of the wonderful treats we had filled our fridge with.) I chose birth preparation material that did not assume that there is only one way to birth. It was recommended by a friend who had used it to prepare for her own first VBAC and it focused on learning skills that would help for any kind of birth. I had a CNM who was not restricted to time limits like the LM of my first birth. I expected pain. I expected it to be work. I had no expectations at all for the pushing phase, as I never got to that point last time, and I was very surprised by what did happen when my body did the pushing by itself. Through out my birth I just focused on trying to keep my inner pelvic muscles relaxed (as learned in the prep materials) and let everything else just happen. Staying relaxed and controlling my breathing were the two things I could and did control during the labor and birth. These are the two things I will focus on again in any future births. The rest is just what happens FOR ME.

I do think it is awful that child birth educators would try to make any woman feel that they did something wrong if the chosen method didn't work for them. Like personality types, labor coping methods work differently for different people. Because self hypnosis works for some does not mean it will work for all. Some women will respond better to other types of coping methods. I'm a doer. Using a method where I could focus on doing something physical (relaxing those inner muscles) worked for me. It might not work for someone else (a reason I haven't named the method here) but it doesn't mean that woman did it wrong or learned it wrong or didn't practice enough. It just isn't a fit for her. There is no one size fits all solutions to getting through labor. There is no one size fits all perfect birth either. There is just what fits each one of us individually, and there is just as much individuality in how we define perfection in birth too.

There is much we can learn from each other, but I think it becomes problematic when any one person becomes dogmatic about any given aspect of child birth. Instead we should be celebrating the diversity around birth and encouraging each other to find that unique combination that will suit each of us. For me that seems to be the only way to increase how many women can then say they had their "perfect" birth.


----------



## Buzzbuzz (Aug 27, 2011)

This seems so on point to the discussion, I can't help but post it:

"*For Kukla, the alternative birth movement's encouragement of such strategies as childbirth classes and birth plans, while originally laudable in intent, is responsible for establishing "completely unrealistic expectations concerning how much control one can possibly have over the laboring process." As a consequence, the movement is implicated in "setting women up for feelings of failure, lack of confidence, disappointment, and maternal inadequacy when things do not go according to plan, even when mother and baby end up healthy". Thus, critics like Kukla suggest, while the natural childbirth movement styles itself as concerned with empowering laboring women, its establishment of a normative ideal of birth is, ultimately, disciplinary and punitive."*

From Jean Clare Jones' "Idealized and Industrialized Labor: Anatomy of a Feminist Controversy", from Volume 27, Issue 1 of the Journal "Hypatia"


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Buzzbuzz*
> 
> 
> 
> *Thus, critics like Kukla suggest, while the natural childbirth movement styles itself as concerned with empowering laboring women, its establishment of a normative ideal of birth is, ultimately, disciplinary and punitive."*


I'm not really sure about the context of the whole article, and while it is clear that there are plenty of problems in the NCB community, I hope this article is not suggesting that women not pursue their interest in having a natural childbirth/homebirth, etc. I would say a lot of the practices in medical childbirth are as well disciplinary and punitive. Clearly this is not a black and white issue.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Lynann*
> 
> There is much we can learn from each other, but I think it *becomes problematic when any one person becomes dogmatic* about any given aspect of child birth. Instead we should be celebrating the diversity around birth and encouraging each other to *find that unique combination that will suit each of us*. For me that seems to be the only way to increase how many women can then say they had their "perfect" birth.


I think you stated this very well.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Read a wonderful article today that really gets at the heart of some of what we've been discussing. http://www.mamaeve.com/natural-childbirth/our-strength-is-tenacity-not-perfection/#comment-3415


----------



## Buzzbuzz (Aug 27, 2011)

I think that portion of the article is pretty clear -- critics say that by creating a rigorous and unbending definition of what "normal" childbirth SHOULD be, the natural childbirth movement is being punitive towards all the women whose births do not match that definition.

The article has a nice little vignette of good old Dr. Lamaze "grading" women on their labors based on how well they managed pain. And of course, it was all those intellectual, "unnatural" women who asked too many questions who would get failing grades.

The more I read about natural childbirth and even attachment parenting, the less and less feminist I find them.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Partaria*
> 
> The childbirth educaiton method I chose was also very laced with this language. It was hypnosis-based, and promised a pain-free birth for most mamas who use it. I was on an email list for people using this method, and when a mother would post a less than ideal birth story that included pain in childbirth, she had to post a warning in the subject line. Why? Because moms who were "in training" weren't supposed to read any birth stories that featured negative things like pain or interventions because it could cause their hypnosis training to not work, and could cause them to have something less than a perfect birth. In the literature with this method, it even discussed how you as a pregnant mom should put up your hand and say "STOP" when someone was telling a birth story that involved pain or a c-section or other interventions. You were to block out all this information because the idea was that believing childbirth could be painful or difficult would cause it to be so. It was called the fear-pain cycle. The method claimed that most women experience pain in childbirth because they expect it to hurt, because our society says it will be painful and difficult. If a woman can free herself from this idea, childbirth is easy and painless.
> 
> When women would post stories of how their hypnosis "failed" them, the manager of the email list would frequently say it was because they didn't listen to their cds often enough, or they had unresolved subconscious issues, or they didn't do X or Y. It sort of felt like her responses were there to preserve the power of the all-mighty method by sort of playing blame-game with these women. I emailed this woman and said that I had done everything I was supposed to do and STILL had a c-section, and I was asked if I had considered that there is a mind-body connection, and that perhaps I had subconscious fears about childbirth that led to my baby being unable to make the final turn to a transverse instead of posterior position.


I just can't get this out of my head. (Disclaimer: just my opinion) Such "method" sounds like a perfect hybrid of a cult and a scam. Kind of like Scientology. "We take your money, we mess with your psyche."


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> I just can't get this out of my head. (Disclaimer: just my opinion) Such "method" sounds like a perfect hybrid of a cult and a scam. Kind of like Scientology. "We take your money, we mess with your psyche."


Interesting. We took Bradley classes and I felt that it taught hubby and me to be good consumers and to know our rights as patients. There were some women in our birthing class that didn't go natural but they weren't made to feel guilty or inferior at the reunions.


----------



## SeattleMolly (Oct 23, 2010)

This is an interesting post.

My husband and I saturated ourselves in learning for my first birth. We decided on a natural home birth. I loved my midwives and the nurturing care they provided from the start.

When my son was breech, we started the moxibustion, chiropractic, positioning, and prayer. Then we moved to the external version, but the perinatologist refused to do that, due to some contraindications.

My family was very concerned about my state of mind since I wanted a natural home birth so badly. Women on this board and ICAN asked if I had done x, y, or z to achieve vaginal birth. Everyone felt so badly for me; sending me their condolences for this disappointing turn of events. I read articles and boards written by women so angry about their cesarians. I didn't fit in any more.

I had a beautiful cesarian birth. I understand that it could have been vaginal if I were in Australia or The Farm, or if I trusted a renegade midwife. But in my time and place in the world, no physician or midwife would assist me. I could not control that. I accepted this.

I had only wanted an uncomplicated birth because I had an uncomplicated pregnancy. When things changed, I made peace with the new reality.

Many folks are judgemental around birth. Many women are talked into unneccessary cesarians. Most in the medical establishment have years of training that is not family-centered. Many families are tremendously uninformed about their birth options. We have so much work to do around this issue.

I don't know how I arrived at such a healthy place around my birth, but I wish this for all other women who are struggling.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Buzzbuzz*
> 
> The more I read about natural childbirth and even attachment parenting, the less and less feminist I find them.


I really have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I find it absolutely feminist to demand/pursue your interests and desires, be it bodily autonomy - bfing, birth, health choices, etc. or lifestyle - sahm, wohm, wahm, homeschooling, babywearing, etc.

At the same time, I think if one gets too wrapped up, you may be pressured into things you do not want... don't like bfing your toddler but will feel "vilifed" to wean? At certain points when DD was an infant, I felt really resentful towards mdc (pretty much my only crunchy exposure source), for putting stakes high on a lot of things that were difficult for me. At the same time, I am thankful to have somewhere to come and find people with similar interests, because I do not know many irl.

I think anything that is telling women explicitly what to do/how to act/how to feel/how to think is not feminist, or healthy for the woman. Guess this runs in NCB/AP as well as everywhere else... again, NO gaurantees in life... anywhere.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Looking back the method I chose obviously had its faults. BUT, I will say that I have met, in person, many women for whom this method was a godsend. So I'm not sure what to think. I will say it should do a better job of preparing women for ALL OUTCOMES, which it did not.

But my method isn't the only thing to "blame" here. A good friend of mine did Bradley, and ended up with a c-section. When she went to her Bradley class reunion and said she'd had a C, her instructor looked at her with a cocked eyebrow and responded with, "And just who was your doula, again?" The intimation being that if my friend had only chosen the right doula, this would not have happened. What a bunch of baloney. My friend tried her butt off for a natural birth, and her doula was nothing but wonderful.

I just wish that when you have a less than storybook birth, people wouldn't immediately play armchair quarterback, trying to help you troubleshoot in retrospect. Why can't they just help you celebrate the birth you did have, instead of behaving as though it was a tragedy you could've avoided? I sometimes feel like this is done to women in order to help reassure everyone else that they will have the perfect birth becasue they won't make the "mistakes" that this mama in front of them must have.

Not saying everyone does this, but tons of people have had this reaction to my birth story, so I guess I'm just personalizing/venting.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

But I think it sums up the point. Having a C-Section isn't a failure! It can be a medically necessary surgery. While I believe our country does too many unnecessary c/s, I would never feel that a mom should be grilled to explain why her was. That is the failure if you ask me.

I like to believe that MDC is becoming more evolved in these discussions. It's a turn for the better. Part of it is that I feel more of us are willing to speak up instead of stay quiet because we knew we'd get dumped on.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks, Youngfrankenstein. 

This thread has inspired me to do something that's been a long time coming. I've decided to finally contact the HB midwives in my area and ask them why they don't include transfer stories on their websites in the "birth stories" section. I didn't do it in a confrontational way at all. But I did ask them why they hadn't posted any of these stories, and pointed out that they are also part of the spectrum of homebirth. I also said that what makes homebirth a safe, viable option is the knowledge and skill of a midwife to know when she needs to reach out for more tools than she has on hand at home. That is also what makes a homebirth midwife worth her salt, and worth hiring.

We will see what they say. I don't even know if I really want them to put up these stories, but I want there to be more of a conversation about how transfers and c-sections and interventions do not mean a birth isn't worth crowing about.


----------



## buko (Feb 29, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> It wasn't that I didn't hear about complications that could arise in labor. It's that the sources I read had an answer for everything. Failure to progress? That should be called "failure to wait." It's caused by OBs who don't want to be late to their golf game. Stalled labor? Wouldn't happen if women were just given the freedom to move as they wished, unhampered by fetal monitors, IVs, etc. Fetal heart decelerations? Avoid pitocin. Malpositioned baby? Prenatal yoga takes care of that. Maternal exhaustion? Eat and drink during labor, and sleep when you need it. Problem solved. For everything else, the presence of a good doula and/or midwife is key.


I find this interesting because I have never gotten this impression from "natural birth" sources-- or only rarely, or only as shorthand. Instead, what I get is, "iatrogenic complications are usually/often the cause of such-and-so complication" or "if you do XYZ no-/low-intervention thing, then you will improve your chances of having an uncomplicated birth." No guarantees.

Guarantees, as a rule, are neither scientific nor ethically supportable.

But I feel like I run into these sorts of arguments all the time (speaking generally now), and while I am FAR more intuitive than logical, they confuse and frustrate the logical part of my brain, such as it is. Like in a business situation, I'll say, "well, studies show that X works 80% of the time, and here is why I think X is the best course of action, blah blah." And people will respond, "Oh, so if I don't do X, then I'm stupid?" or "I had a friend who did X and it was a disaster for her! There goes your theory!" And I'm kind of nonplussed. Just because something usually works (if there's good reason to believe it does), does not mean that it always works, or works for everyone in every circumstance, or whatever. And it certainly doesn't mean one should place all of his/her hopes on that thing, without considering how s/he will feel and what s/he will do if it doesn't work. But on the other hand, just because there are no guarantees does not mean, to me, that it's not worthwhile to at least make an attempt to make the choice that carries the best odds.

I hope that doesn't sound condescending. Just "thinking out loud."

I'm not suggesting anyone here "failed to take responsibility" in some way by buying into powerful ideas (societally-sanctioned or otherwise). But I think it's been really, really important to me, personally, to see life as series of risks and rewards and decisions, none of which has a guaranteed outcome.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *buko*
> 
> I'm not suggesting anyone here "failed to take responsibility" in some way by buying into powerful ideas (societally-sanctioned or otherwise). But I think it's been really, really important to me, personally, to see life as series of risks and rewards and decisions, *none of which has a guaranteed outcome*.


That's the educated approach. Lots of people do not see things that way. "Well *I* did everything right (followed Brewer diet, ate fairy dust, did Hypnobabies) and things worked out well for me, so if *you* have an awful birth experience (problems breastfeeding, needy baby, etc), then it's because you didn't do the right thing".

It's the logic of the stupid, and there's a lot of it out there, trust me. And it's very obvious.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *buko*
> 
> I find this interesting because I have never gotten this impression from "natural birth" sources-- or only rarely, or only as shorthand. Instead, what I get is, "iatrogenic complications are usually/often the cause of such-and-so complication" or "if you do XYZ no-/low-intervention thing, then you will improve your chances of having an uncomplicated birth." No guarantees.
> 
> ...


I guess I agree and disagree. I disagree with your first paragraph because I have seen this type of language that CI Mama is putting out there all over the place.

I do get as frustrated as you about the other side of your story. I get tired of the "I breastfeed, why is my baby sick!?!?" and have known were mad and a bit betrayed that their un-vaxed or breastfed babies got a cold. I don't remember anyone guaranteeing that kids don't get sick in these circumstances. It's bizarre to me, frankly, that someone could be so blinded by what they think was something they were promised.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *buko*
> 
> I find this interesting because I have never gotten this impression from "natural birth" sources-- or only rarely, or only as shorthand. Instead, what I get is, "iatrogenic complications are usually/often the cause of such-and-so complication" or "if you do XYZ no-/low-intervention thing, then you will improve your chances of having an uncomplicated birth." No guarantees.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate this response to my post because it gets me thinking again. I don't take this as condescending. I actually agree with you on pretty much everything. There are no guarantees. The best we can do is improve our odds.

I think where I'm coming from is trying to figure out how we support and help women who've had traumatic births. And the message "there are no guarantees, all you can do is improve your odds" is just not helping me move through my trauma. I am a bit stuck in endless second guessing about my experience, especially since I don't know exactly what went wrong with my labor or what would prevent the same disaster were I to try again (not that I'm going to). Did I really do my best and give myself the best odds? Did I really give natural birth every possible chance to succeed? And if I didn't, what does that say about me? Did I deserve what I got? If I really understood that there were no guarantees, then why do I feel so traumatized? And why am I still trying to sort this out more than 3 years later?

Which brings me back to something I posted far upstream...the prevailing views of birth trauma. Either I am:

1) Neurotic and need to get over myself.

or

2) I went with the wrong provider/care/method and/or didn't make the right choices and I need to just take responsibility for that and move on.

or

3) Something else, to be determined.

What I wish for is a birth conversation context that would not only help women prepare for their best possible birth, but help them move through trauma when it occurs. It seems like the "there are no guarantees, just give yourself the best odds" message would be enough to innoculate women against disappointment and trauma when things don't go well. But that's not what I have experienced.

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Partaria*
> 
> Thanks, Youngfrankenstein.
> 
> ...


Just curious...did you ever get a response?


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *buko*
> 
> But I feel like I run into these sorts of arguments all the time (speaking generally now), and while I am FAR more intuitive than logical, they confuse and frustrate the logical part of my brain, such as it is. Like in a business situation, I'll say, "well, studies show that X works 80% of the time, and here is why I think X is the best course of action, blah blah." And people will respond, "Oh, so if I don't do X, then I'm stupid?" or "I had a friend who did X and it was a disaster for her! There goes your theory!" And I'm kind of nonplussed. Just because something usually works (if there's good reason to believe it does), does not mean that it always works, or works for everyone in every circumstance, or whatever. And it certainly doesn't mean one should place all of his/her hopes on that thing, without considering how s/he will feel and what s/he will do if it doesn't work. But on the other hand, just because there are no guarantees does not mean, to me, that it's not worthwhile to at least make an attempt to make the choice that carries the best odds.


OK, I'm not trying to take over this thread, but I have had a little more time to think & I want to respond to this.

I have come to believe that determining "the odds" of how a particular birth will turn out is almost impossibly difficult. When we think about "odds", we usually turn to statistical research that presents those odds in a variety of ways. The stats that are out there tend to focus on maternal & infant mortality. There may be stats that indicate risks for particular interventions (or lack of intervention) or methods of care, but they don't necessarily tell you your likelihood that you'll need that intervention or whether that method of care is right for you. Knowing how a risk factor impacts an entire population isn't the same is knowing how it will impact *you*.

Based on what I've seen on MDC and elsewhere, I believe that most of us form a world view about birth and birth care, and then we select & interpret stats that support that view. Pretty much very stat about birth I've ever seen has been highly contested and debated. Safety of homebirth, safety of epidurals, you name it. Depending on your world view, the research is either helpful and useful information that all pregnant women should use in their decision making, or it's flawed and skewed to scare women away from things in their best interest. The only stat I've ever seen somewhat "universal" agreement on is that the c-section rate in the US is too high (though no one seems to agree on what it "should" be...topic for another thread perhaps).

I believe that our expectations about birth and birth care is not really shaped by facts and statistics as much as by stories, experiences, faith, political views, personality, and all of the personal things that make up our world view. And our world view is also what shapes our sense of belonging in community and our feeling of ownership over our own stories.

Some births seriously challenge this carefully constructed world view, and that can be incredibly painful and disorienting. It can feel like we're not just losing "a birth" but we're losing our faith, our community, and our right to have authority over our own stories. At least, that is partly what it felt like to me. In my longer term experience, it can also be humbling (in a good way) and freeing.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'm arguing with you over anything, buko, but your post made me think about all this so I wanted to share.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I really appreciate this response to my post because it gets me thinking again. I don't take this as condescending. I actually agree with you on pretty much everything. There are no guarantees. The best we can do is improve our odds.
> 
> ...


I get your point, but I am personally clueless as to the answer. I guess we all are... especially because there is so much difference between individuals and births.

...but, we discussed for a long time in this thread that it is wrong for natural birth community to send the message "do a, b, and c and you will have perfect birth... oh you had bad outcome? obviously you didn't do l,m,n,o,p right... and maybe not enough x,y,z"

Now it sounds like you are saying that even if the general rhetoric were more (or is), "do a, b, c and you can improve your chances but anything can happen in birth/life" it is still not good enough.

I don't think there is a way to "innoculate" humans against diasppointments. I have not had a traumatic birth, but I have had lots of other crap happen to me in life, some of which I am not over yet either. Maybe it is more that we should be discovering ways to deal with it after instead of trying to "innoculate" before. Birth trauma has long been ignored or downplayed (ie neurotic, or you get what you deserve because of your choices, or the whole spoiled 1st world woman thing). I think even if you go into birth with the best possible mindset/preparation/etc there is always going to be possibility for disappointment, and, there is the possibility for some very, very bad outcomes, I think it would be a bigger problem if one weren't upset about some things.

ETA: oops, you posted last reply while I was working on this... didn't read it before typing this...


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Ha, ha, what are we both doing sitting at our computers on a Saturday night?









I think you are really onto something here. Maybe its more about figuring out how to not ignore & downplay the hard stories, how to make space for them. I don't know. Sometimes the more I think about this, the more I get confused. But it's more helpful to think about it out here on MDC than in the echo chamber of my own mind.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> Ha, ha, what are we both doing sitting at our computers on a Saturday night?


haha,







yeah, big saturday night!

I think this is really important, what you said in last response, (not sure for everyone, but sounds like for you personally, and I can totally see it applying to most people, when I think about big disappointments in my life that have really affected me, I would say yes, they changed/destroyed my worldview at the time, which is really traumatic on many levels).

Quote:


> Some births seriously challenge this carefully constructed world view, and that can be incredibly painful and disorienting. It can feel like we're not just losing "a birth" but we're losing our faith, our community, and our right to have authority over our own stories. At least, that is partly what it felt like to me. In my longer term experience, it can also be humbling (in a good way) and freeing.


It makes it even harder in some ways, I think, for others to interact with someone going through this, since it may not just be the one, straight and clear issue that the person is upset about, it goes into levels others have no way to even know about. Thinking about some of my own issues, I would get mad and frustrated at people trying to comfort me when they just didn't *get* it, they would address like 1 thing when I was upset about like 80. Personally, I have found some freedom because of some "world view" destruction, but it took a really long time, and well, I'm still confused about that "freedom" too.

The only thing I know for sure, is that people who have had some major disappointment or trauma, one thing that certainly does not help is dismissing them, blaming them, or downplaying their feelings/experiences.


----------



## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

This is a really interesting thread - I've read the whole thing in a few dif't sittings and it's brought out a whole range of emotions/thoughts in me personally. Maybe I can contribute something to the conversation. First off - I have been on MDC for a few years, and having basically become a mother abroad (I live in China) - it's been a tremendous resource for me. Also, since I do tend to be on the crunchier-ish side, it's a great support when many people in real life don't really support/relate to some of my parenting choices (no spanking, for example - and I have a really spirited little boy). It's been invaluable and confidence building as well as just a nice place where I find some other moms to chat with. I may not be on the boards enough or post enough to feel judged about much of anything - so overall, for me, MDC has been a godsend.

A caveat: I have had two births thus far - both homebirths, one midwife-assisted, and one unassisted. Both were empowering experiences for me - very challenging, very difficult (31 hour first labor - very slow slow dilation - it was exhausting - 2 sleepless nights!) - but empowering and beautiful. Especially because of all the work/study that went into preparing for my second, unassisted birth, I consider myself fairly well-versed in the natural childbirth literature. I have never really felt that they speak in outright guarantees about childbirth outcomes - as in, "If you do x,y, and z, then you are guaranteed a perfect natural childbirth." And for what it's worth - I don't really think any birth is 'perfect' - birth is hard, demanding, exhausting, and fraught with challenges - challenges that I believe, whatever form they take, can transform us into better and stronger people. Life is hard, parenthood is even harder . Although I have had two natural births, I got mastitis with my first two weeks post partum. After my second child's natural, uncomplicated birth, I got Bell's Palsy (for the second time in 3 months - which is statistically really rare, lucky lucky me) that lasted for a month (it's a half-facial paralysis - totally not fun). Pregnancy and birth are physically, emotionally, and spiritually demanding and not without risks. I think we all do the best we can to prepare and to cope with whatever happens. I may not have torn with either of my births, but I had to nurse through 3 days of 104 degree fevers, and I had to live with paralysis for a month while caring for a toddler and a newborn. Nobody gets off scott free; as my friend said once, "The pregnancy fairies visit everyone, one way or another."

That said, I feel very blessed in my birthing experiences - I'm glad that I was able to birth naturally, and that was my goal from the start. I never thought of it as a 'right' or a 'guarantee' - but I did try to do everything in my power to push the odds in my favor. And so, when people in my life cluck at my birth choices and just chalk it all up to "luck" - I do, I admit, become rather indignant. I worked hard, I studied hard, I met and spoke with every midwifery practice in my area and visited every hospital with a long list of questions, interviewed references, read 14 childbirth books and spoke to my doctors - that led me to choose a homebirth for my first birth - which I believe was a smart, informed choice for me. It wasn't all luck. Same with my second birth - I took all the knowledge from my first birth and built on it with more study, more preparation, and very careful prenatal care. Again, it wasn't all luck.

So when people say to me, "Gosh you were just lucky." I feel deflated and completely misunderstood. I worked so very hard, and you chalk it up to luck? Sure, in part, YES, it was luck - and I mean this next statement in a completely un-self-righteous way - but I did a heck of a lot of homework and other grunt work to hedge my bets for a natural childbirth - don't you dare chalk that up to simple coincidence and dismiss me or my decision-making process so easily. A lot of people who say this are women who've had a birth not go exactly as they had planned, and in conversation with them - I never even try to play the role of armchair quarterback (unless the individual opens the door to that) because I know that in my position I could easily be misunderstood as being judgmental and I have no such intentions - but sometimes I end up feeling judged. And I try to just swallow that and let it go, because I really don't feel like women need to feel so awful about a c-section, an epidural, or whatever. I feel like I wish more women knew they could have greater control over their births if they so wished or if they had the confidence to strike out against the grain, but I also really believe, that bottom line, women should be supported in their opinions and in their circumstances - regardless of the type of birth they had.

And yes, some women do all that homework/preparation and it doesn't go their way - I really do get that - and realize in all humility that my birth outcomes are a combination of things (blessing, hard work, luck, whatever you want to call it).

I don't think though, that negates the goodness of the natural childbirth movement, nor does it excuse the mainstream childbirth system as it stands from the need to reform in many areas.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

How about we try a few other scenarios, starting from here:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lizbiz*
> 
> And so, when people in my life cluck at my birth choices and just chalk it all up to "luck" - I do, I admit, become rather indignant. I worked hard, I studied hard, I met and spoke with every midwifery practice in my area and visited every hospital with a long list of questions, interviewed references, read 14 childbirth books and spoke to my doctors


AND THEN got pre-eclampsia, placental abruption, emergency surgery;

OR got placenta previa, C-section

OR 50 hour birth, fetal distress, C-section

OR... any other scenario. Use your knowledge from books here.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lizbiz*
> 
> So when people say to me, "Gosh you were just lucky." I feel deflated and completely misunderstood. I worked so very hard, and you chalk it up to luck? Sure, in part, YES, it was luck - and I mean this next statement in a completely un-self-righteous way - but I did a heck of a lot of homework and other grunt work to hedge my bets for a natural childbirth - don't you dare chalk that up to simple coincidence and dismiss me or my decision-making process so easily.


Gosh, like nobody else does homework or reads anything. It's not rocket surgery, you know.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lizbiz*
> 
> And yes, some women do all that homework/preparation and it doesn't go their way - I really do get that


No, not really. Sorry you just don't. The *privilege* of only nice experiences shows through.

I think your post is a perfect illustration for what is discussed in this thread.

It's not all about studying, talking to midwives, and reading 14 books.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> How about we try a few other scenarios, starting from here:
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> The only thing I know for sure, is that people who have had some major disappointment or trauma, one thing that certainly does not help is dismissing them, blaming them, or downplaying their feelings/experiences.


I think Lizbiz was trying to say she doesn't want her "good" experience dismissed or downplayed either.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

I get that. Now let's imagine, a few women read the same books, talked to the same midwives, rented the same kind of birthing pool, etc. And for some, things still went wrong. For those who had a great outcome, would it be ok to say "It's not luck, I did everything right, I did a lot of homework". - "Really? Well so did I!" It takes a lot of nerve to be that condescending to others.

By golly, I'm going to read 28 books, and talk to 14 midwives, and if things do go well, oh I'm going to lord that over everyone else! (Ok, after I figure out if it's the number of books or the hours of homework that is crucial for success.)


----------



## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> How about we try a few other scenarios, starting from here:
> 
> ...


Hi Double Double,

I know - these things can and do happen - even with the best of preparations. I thought I had acknowledged that in my post - but it didn't come through clearly enough. I apologize for that. I was truly trying to share my own honest thoughts, emotions, and experiences. And I'm open to being teased about how overboard I went reading up when I first got pregnant (it was a bit intense) - but not made fun of seriously - please back off. I don't think the sarcasm is really that helpful.

I also know that lots of others do their homework and read things too. But you know what? A good number of women (meaning a LOT) that I know in real life did not really do as much preparation as I did. They trusted their doctors or mainstream opinion too much (for good reason - our doctors should be trustworthy and are often trustworthy - but they are also human) and then had a few regrets in hindsight. We've all been in situations like this, where we wished we had known better to look into things more deeply ourselves before leaping in, and then we learn great lessons from this - I know I have had this experience in lots of other areas of my life so I can relate - however thus far I haven't had it in my birth experiences, but I may (I'm not done having kids yet) one day. I've had lots of opportunities to be humbled in this life, luckily - because being full of pride generally makes one a complete pain in the a$$ , and I truly don't chalk up my birth experiences to my own hard work alone.

I was just trying to say that I don't want it all discounted as luck either. Or just privilege. And yes, I feel privileged and blessed and I recognize and am grateful for that.

Please understand that what I am NOT saying is that every woman who had an unplanned c-section or some kind of intervention that they weren't planning on just wasn't prepared enough and should have done exactly what I did - that's so so so so so not what I am saying, and I think that's a terribly unhelpful and wrongheaded way to think. I've never brought that mindset to any conversation I've ever had about birth, ever. Birth is far too complicated for such a radical over-simplification.

OK - I'm signing off on this thread - truly, I wanted to share on a thread that seemed as though we were having an intelligent, courteous conversation and I thought I could add a perspective. I will say that in my real life, no one has ever talked to me in such sarcastic tones about my birth experience.

~Lizbiz


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

I was not talking about your birth experience. I was sarcastic about the assumptions that a lot of prep work translates into perfection if done right. You just seem to be among many others who hold that view as well, and you articulated it here, loud and proud.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> I was not talking about your birth experience. I was sarcastic about the assumptions that a lot of prep work translates into perfection if done right. You just seem to be among many others who hold that view as well, and you articulated it here, loud and proud.


I think we are just going around in circles here. I didn't see Lizbiz say that her preparations ensured 100% her outcome, I think she admitted there were no gaurantees, but felt that her preparation helped her birth. Is the message we want to send, nothing you do matters? don't even bother trying? I thought we had moved past the rhetoric of perfect preparation = perfect birth in this discussion.

I have never told anyone this, other than my husband and gyno, but I think it is relevant here. I had a uc. I prepared a lot. I had a cervical lip, and had to push it over my baby's head. I was only able to do this because I read enough to recognize the problem and had the resources to tell me what to do. I am not proud of this. I regret ucing on some levels because of this - it was difficult and sucked, and I know if I had a mw, it would have been a lot easier on me, (long story why I didn't). Had I not done that, I don't think the lip would have resolved on its own, and I doubt I could have gone another hour or so. I would have transferred for a c/s, that is the only realistic option the hospital would have offered me where I live.

Maybe if I had done MORE preparation, or knew MORE about fetal positioning, I could have resolved or prevented the problem some other way. But I didn't.

In preparing for a uc, I knew there were certain things I could NEVER handle and I knew there are, sometimes, no way to prevent these things. Placenta previa, pre-eclampsia, cord prolapse, etc. etc. I knew in the face of those issues, I would be in for a different birth, I didn't believe myself immune to complications either.

So my preparation did get me the outcome I wanted? - yes, to some extent. Could my preparation get me the outcome I wanted in all possible circumstances - NO.

We are all at risk, everyday, for all sorts of bad crap to happen to us. Are we lucky or privileged any given day we don't get into a car accident or get assaulted? Can you do things to try to minimize your chances of car accident or your house broken into? I think we need to move past this and get more onto what CI Mama was saying about how to handle disappointments/trauma after... because there is no way to ever fully prevent.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> I think we are just going around in circles here. I didn't see Lizbiz say that her preparations ensured 100% her outcome, I think she admitted there were no gaurantees, but felt that her preparation helped her birth. *Is the message we want to send, nothing you do matters? don't even bother trying?* I thought we had moved past the rhetoric of perfect preparation = perfect birth in this discussion.


For real! Because when you talk to someone the way you just did, DoubleDouble, that's exactly what you are doing. You are saying that, since sometimes things don't work out, it's all pointless. We might as well just show up for every OB appointment, with any old OB our finger lands on in the phone book, and do everything he or she says, without bothering to read a thing in advance, because hey, it's all just a matter of luck anyway. That's ridiculous. It has been repeatedly stated by LizBiz and others that they understand that luck played a big part in it, but to say that it played the ONLY part is just as bad and hyperbolic as it is when people say that luck didn't play ANY part at all.

Sure, sometimes a woman gets no prenatal care from a professional or herself, doesn't take care of herself, shows up at the hospital in transition and pushes a healthy baby out within 30 minutes with no interventions, and yeah, that's luck. That happens to very few of us. If a woman does everything she can to have a safe birth, and goes into it knowing that she still might need interventions she didn't necessarily want in order to achieve that, then whatever she did is helpful, EVEN IF SHE ENDS UP WITH [INSERT UNWANTED INTERVENTION OR BAD OUTCOME HERE], because she will have the knowledge that she did what she could, and that at least things went as well as could be expected under the circumstances. We can't prevent all complications. I have GD this time and it's not my fault. I couldn't have prevented it, no matter what I did or what anyone else says about how I could. However, knowing how to take care of myself, understanding what truly normal glucose levels are for pregnant women so that I can achieve them, those things matter. The OBs I see give target levels that are 20 points higher than what's actually normal. If I followed their advice, I wouldn't be achieving normal blood sugar levels. I might still have a healthy baby, but then that would be luck. Reading, doing what I can to make sure I really know what's best, that is NOT luck, whether everything works out perfectly or we wind up with interventions. I can do things to prevent complications like macrosomia, which might necessitate a c-section, or hypoglycemia in the baby. I can't prevent the GD, but I can do things to reduce its impact. I can only do that, though, if I know what I need to do.


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 
I have GD this time and it's not my fault. I couldn't have prevented it, no matter what I did or what anyone else says about how I could. However, knowing how to take care of myself, understanding what truly normal glucose levels are for pregnant women so that I can achieve them, those things matter. The OBs I see give target levels that are 20 points higher than what's actually normal. If I followed their advice, I wouldn't be achieving normal blood sugar levels. I might still have a healthy baby, but then that would be luck. Reading, doing what I can to make sure I really know what's best, that is NOT luck, whether everything works out perfectly or we wind up with interventions. I can do things to prevent complications like macrosomia, which might necessitate a c-section, or hypoglycemia in the baby. I can't prevent the GD, but I can do things to reduce its impact. I can only do that, though, if I know what I need to do.

But that's just normal behavior (in my book). A smart thing to do. I don't see anything too special about that. Everyone should prepare the best they can, and react to new developments in an educated way. What's so special about that? That's like... I don't know... learning about traffic rules before starting to drive. Normal and logical thing to do, but not worthy of an extra achievement award.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *slmommy* 

Is the message we want to send, nothing you do matters? don't even bother trying?

Where did I said that? I'm not talking about being prepared, I'm talking about what happens afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 


> For real! Because when you talk to someone the way you just did, DoubleDouble, that's exactly what you are doing. You are saying that, since sometimes things don't work out, it's all pointless.


Ok, officially: everyone should be prepared. Read books, search forums, go to PubMed, explore other sources of info, learn self-hypnosis, meditate, whatever. It's all good. Books, research, midwives, et cetera, ad nauseum.

And for some people, all that would still be pointless. And then, the things-went-well crowd should not treat them as lepers.

What is *the message I want to send?* It's simple. *And it's not about being prepared, it's about handling the aftermath, graciously.* After all is said and done, after the birth happens, the perfect birth crowd shouldn't act like those women who didn't have the perfect birth are failures. They shouldn't judge and make smug remarks. I know it might be too much to ask, looking at some threads here on MDC and on other sites. But one can dream, right?

See this post (and the beginning of this thread, for a refresher) - for examples of how other women feel judged, here on MDC and in real life.


----------



## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

I've been following along this thread from the beginning & finding the conversation quite interesting. It's really had me thinking about my own births. With both I did a lot of reading, a lot of research, really did the best I could to find a doctor I liked/trusted but the outcomes were still not "perfect".

With ds I was induced with cervical gel & ended up with a 3rd degree tear due to a forceps delivery. Recovery was awful, awful. But I felt fine with his birth.

With dd I did even more reading & prep & had my Mom do more reading too. I had 3 weeks of prodromal labour, was induced with cervical strip which didn't really help, doctor broke my water, one dose of narcotics, iv antibiotics for gbs+, a little bit of pitocin & freezing around my vagina 'cause the doctor was worried he might have to cut due to all the scarring from ds (he didn't & I had a 2nd degree tear). Recovery was awesome.

With dd's birth some things came up about ds' birth, specifically that the cervical gel induction was likely the reason I had such a bizarre labour (hard, hard contractions with no rhythm). But even then I was able to deal with the negative feelings that arose fairly quickly 'cause I felt like we had made good decisions at the time.

But despite what many would call "bad" births full of interventions I felt & still feel really good about them. Yes, I prepared for a "perfect" birth. I went in ready to fight for my rights. I really, really wanted a natural birth but it didn't really happen.

The reason I don't feel traumatized by the disappointment of not realizing the births I dreamed of is that I felt in control. I asked lots & lots of questions (the poor nurse who was instructed to give me pit probably never had a labouring woman ask her more questions!), I spoke clearly & directly to my care providers & made sure we were on the same page. I don't feel disappointed 'cause I feel like I was respected & we worked to make the best decisions for the situations we were presented with.

It might not work for everyone but it is working for me.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> But that's just normal behavior (in my book). A smart thing to do. I don't see anything too special about that. Everyone should prepare the best they can, and react to new developments in an educated way. What's so special about that? That's like... I don't know... learning about traffic rules before starting to drive. Normal and logical thing to do, but not worthy of an extra achievement award.
> 
> ...


But you're doing exactly what you don't want the rest of us to do. I thought we were making a lot of progress in this thread. I thought many of us were getting more complete understanding of this whole topic. You've barely been a member for long as far as I can tell so I have no idea if you have seen the shit storm that has been waded through even in the short time I've been here. To have this kind of dialogue here is monumental and I am finding it very educational.

I feel venom in your responses. You are poking at threads just to be contrary. We all can see it. I never feel like you're posts leave room to let a little of the other side sink in. It's your loss and I would hate to see the judging and cat-fighting begin again. I'm not going to be a part of that.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble* 


> After all is said and done, after the birth happens, the perfect birth crowd shouldn't act like those women who didn't have the perfect birth are failures. They shouldn't judge and make smug remarks.


Lizbiz wasn't speaking about anyone else's birth but her own. You made the jump that her stating that she feels preparation helped her birth outcomes = she is judging and being smug to other "failures", even though she said the opposite. Let's remember the OP of this thread was judging women for feeling like failures or being upset, too.

I thought we were getting somewhere. People complain about this so much on mdc that maybe we should let the thread move forward to get somewhere, to some more understanding, more perspective. Going backward and just complaining about the "perfect birthers" judging the "birth failures" isn't productive, and I honestly thought we were beyond that in this thread.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


> But that's just normal behavior (in my book). A smart thing to do. I don't see anything too special about that. Everyone should prepare the best they can, and react to new developments in an educated way. What's so special about that? That's like... I don't know... learning about traffic rules before starting to drive. Normal and logical thing to do, but not worthy of an extra achievement award.


Where did I ask for an achievement award? Oh, that's right: NOWHERE. You are, quite frankly, just trying to be antagonistic and rude. The point wasn't that someone deserved a special award for educating herself. The point was that education CAN affect outcomes. I'm sorry that you are so upset by whatever has upset you, but understand that the fact that you are unable to see past your hurt feelings and understand what people are actually saying vs. what you are accusing them of saying isn't going to make you feel any better. And in the end, you are engaging in the same tactics you claim to be so upset about: discounting other people's feelings and using hyperbole to support your position.

Furthermore, if you believe that it's "normal" for a woman to hold herself to a higher standard of blood glucose levels than what the OB suggests...I'm just going to laugh. I recently discussed GDM on facebook with several of my friends who also had it - 4 of them. Guess how many of them had bothered to find out what normal blood glucose levels were during pregnancy. None. Zero. Because people DO rely on their doctors to tell them what they need to know. And my friends aren't idiots. They're just normal, mainstream women with college degrees who believe that OBs are always armed with the latest information. What you believe is "normal" behavior isn't the same thing as what actual "normal" behavior is. I assume you're living in some kind of crunchy bubble somewhere, where women rely on themselves more than their OBs, when it comes time to gather information. The rest of the world isn't like that. Doesn't mean I need an award, want an award or feel deserving of an award. It does mean that, yes, I do feel I'll probably have an easier labor with a lower risk of shoulder dystocia than my tiny friend, who delivered 3 ten pound babies, after staying in her OBs recommended blood sugar levels throughout each of her pregnancies. Award worthy? Absolutely not. Less likely to result in complications? Absolutely. Is it a guarantee? Absolutely not. Hear what I am SAYING, not what it is easy for you to argue with. Straw men are lame. And before you set up another one, let me be very clear: I admit that it's quite possible my friend would've had 10 pound babies even staying within the true normal blood glucose range, rather than the ones her OB told her to shoot for. But with recent research showing that at every increase of bg levels, even in the normal ranges, babies get fatter, I'd say the odds are slim. Also, despite what I'm sure will be your insistence that I must be judging women's birth experiences by daring to even talk about this, she had normal, intervention-free, drug-free births every time, and her babies were healthy. Nothing there to judge. However, I don't personally want to have a 10 pound baby. Nothing wrong with them, of course, but I had enough trouble getting my 8 pounder out. I'm not built for 10 pounders, and I'm trying not to have one.

Quote:


> What is *the message I want to send?* It's simple. *And it's not about being prepared, it's about handling the aftermath, graciously.* After all is said and done, after the birth happens, the perfect birth crowd shouldn't act like those women who didn't have the perfect birth are failures. They shouldn't judge and make smug remarks. I know it might be too much to ask, looking at some threads here on MDC and on other sites. But one can dream, right?


And YOU shouldn't act like EVERYONE who dares to suggest that education played a part in their outcome is doing that, but "one can dream, right?"


----------



## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
> 
> I'm sorry that you are so upset by whatever has upset you, but understand that the fact that you are unable to see past your hurt feelings and understand what people are actually saying vs. what you are accusing them of saying isn't going to make you feel any better.


That's true. I think I am very, very bitter. It took me years of hearing judgements and "helpful suggestions" to get to such levels. I'll have to work for a long while to reset and see things differently.

I am sorry everyone.


----------



## Slmommy (Jan 22, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> That's true. I think I am very, very bitter. It took me years of hearing judgements and "helpful suggestions" to get to such levels. I'll have to work for a long while to reset and see things differently.
> 
> I am sorry everyone.


I'm sorry people were judgemental and crappy to you. I can see why and how it could make someone extremely bitter. You don't seem to be the only one, it seems to be pretty much a dominate theme around here, unfortunately. I think this thread was/is turning out very interesting, this is not an easy topic to discuss.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoubleDouble*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You have every right to your emotions. I know this whole topic can be so heated and we all just want to feel like we're being heard.







I am ashamed about how I used to think a few years back. I was too much on the "Rah, rah! Go homebirth!" side of things and I feel like I get the other side now. Again, just to have this on MDC is beautiful.


----------



## Florence19 (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> You have every right to your emotions. I know this whole topic can be so heated and we all just want to feel like we're being heard.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above. And the bolded...yeah. lol I had my first in the hospital and it was a beautiful birth with a great midwife, so I'm not anti-hospital birth at all, and never have been. However, I was very judgmental about women who chose not to breastfeed and about other stupid things. I'm still working on it all. No one is perfect, I suppose.


----------



## Partaria (Sep 7, 2010)

I started up a podcast recently and my first episode touched on a lot of what we've discussed here. Check it out if you want. It's a long interview with a mama who went for a natural birth and ended up with a cesarean. She struggled to come to terms with it for a while, constantly wondering what she had "done wrong."

At her birth class reunion, she tells of her c-section and her instructor's first response was "Who was your doula, again?".. as though if she had only gone with another doula (ie made a "smarter" decision), her outcome would've been different...

http://broadlives.libsyn.com


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Off to listen!!!!


----------



## jenerationx (Nov 3, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I never thought it would happen to me. I swallowed the Kool Aid. I was sure that with year of yoga and meditation experience as well as my acupressure therapist doula by my side I would make it without any meds. My labor was a the biggest lesson in humility and understand that control is illusion. That one can plan and prepare but life has other plans.


Yes! Humility. You simply can not, ultimately, control the situation.

With my first, my water broke and didn't really feel contractions or get uncomfortable for 6 hours. Because of that, they wanted to start pitocin because they didn't think I had progressed. I had them check and I was at 4--no pitocin needed. Got in the tub, things progressed pretty fast. Had excruciating back labor. Started pushing at noon and the nurse thought I would have baby by 1ish. Had a great OB that was very supportive of natural birth. Ended up pushing for over three hours at which point pitocin was started because he just wasn't moving down (he was posterior). Suddenly, my natural labor turned into a 17 hour labor with almost every intervention known to man---epidural, pitocin, internal monitors (because baby's heart rate went way up), oxygen, prepping me for an emergency c section. I was exhausted and had no control. In the end, I was prepped and ready for the c section, wheeled into a surgical room with bright lights, nurses, anesthesiologist, multiple OB's, residents, special care nursery staff, etc. Not at all what I wanted or pictured. The epidural didn't work. My beautiful son was delivered via forceps. He wasn't breathing and had an APGAR score of 1 at 1 minute. I didn't get to hold him right away, because they had to work on him. My husband held him first. His 5 minute score was a 7 and thankfully, he was fine.

Sure, I could have declined the pitocin, but honestly, at some point I would have consented to pain meds or something--I couldn't have pushed forever. I felt like I had been hit by a truck for a week. I had a 3rd degree tear that was horrid. I had all of these expectations for myself and felt like I failed. Failed at birth. I cried in our pediatricians office when he told me we needed to supplement. I failed at birth, I couldn't possibly fail at breastfeeding, too. Yet, I did. Failed at birth. Failed at breastfeeding. Failed for having a colicky baby. Failed for having PPD.

It was horrible and I was a mess. Why? Partly because I had placed so much pressure and so many expectations on myself for having the perfect birth. Other people did it all the time! People that didn't even *want* a natural birth ended up with one because they just progressed so fast! What was wrong with me?! I was depressed and missed out on so much with my son. I was exhausted all the time. And angry. So angry.

I just recently had my second. I didn't have problems with breastfeeding or PPD. Was it because I had an ideal birth? Or was it simply because I was much more open this time? I was much more aware about keeping an open mind this time around. That said, I ended up having gestational diabetes and while at my 40 week visit, the NP informed me that because of gestational diabetes, they would be scheduling an induction. I was mad--this so wasn't supposed to happen! I followed the damn diet. I exercised. I hardly had any blood sugar reading out of range. I did everything I could to have baby come on his own, but it didn't work. I knew I was healthy and baby was healthy and that he was not a large baby. So, yes, I could have refused an induction. I didn't, though. I decided to go with it and hope that this experience would be better.

Showed up, got my cervadil, got my pitocin the next morning (the devil!!!), and got meds after feeling like I was near death while in the tub. That's right, I got pitocin and meds! Oh, AND ended up with an episiotomy. And a male OB! Who was I?! As soon as the nurse told me I was at a 9 and she paged the OB, I started remembering my first birth experience, as I'm sure my husband was as well. I started to cry and the wonderful, wonderful nurse and my amazing OB picked up on it--they assured me baby wasn't posterior. That the baby was right there. My OB told me during pregnancy a million times that each birth is different, I was reminded again.

After a very painful, but quick (6 hours) labor, my beautiful son was born. And I cried. Cried big, huge, fat tears of joy and relief. Any notion of guilt and failure from this labor, or my first birth, was gone. He was placed directly on my chest and suddenly, everything was perfect. Perfect.

It didn't matter that I had an induction or pain meds. Or that it wasn't what I pictured as being ideal. Or that I had a (male!) OB instead of a midwife. I still had my supportive, loving husband, I had an incredible nurse who didn't leave my side and I had a gentle, caring male OB that sang happily as I delivered. It may not have been what I *thought* was ideal, but it was happy, peaceful and perfect, for me.


----------



## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

jenerationx - so many parallels in our birth stories. Thank you for sharing. Fwiw - I had male ob's for both births & they were both the most gentle, caring, skilled, respectful men - no regrets at all on that front.


----------



## skyblufig (Aug 13, 2006)

to jenerationx -

Just, thank you. You just helped me out a whole, huge bunch. Can't go into details at the moment, but thanks again!


----------



## jenerationx (Nov 3, 2006)

So glad I could somehow help, skyblufig.


----------



## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

OP here it's been a while since I've read my thread. I'm happy so many women including myself found peace

and joy regardless of their delivery. Here I am 6 weeks pregnant and a very long ways away from giving birth.

But this time around it's my baby's choice I'm happy to comply with whichever way he/she wants to enter

this world.


----------



## Hipi (Sep 5, 2012)

As someone who is recovering from a tubal pregnancy, I believe any birth where the baby & mother come out healthy is "perfect."

But I've had a baby before. Recovering from natural birth is way easier than recovering from getting cut. However, getting a c-section doesn't make you less of a woman.


----------



## jenerationx (Nov 3, 2006)

I love this thread!


----------



## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I read the first two and last pages and I'm happy to see some sense and compassion...

I had a relatively crappy birth with my first. Home birth transfer - no progression after 20 hrs of labour. Epi, pit drip, excruciatingly difficult vaginal birth of a nearly 9-lb baby who inexplicably had her arm over her head. Tore like crazy, hemorrhaged badly, lost well over a litre of blood and had problems breastfeeding with low iron, low blood levels, a sleepy baby and very low milk supply.

I was moderately okay with the birth (I mean, I avoided a c-section! That's the holy grail right? Pfft.) until I had to supplement my baby with (gasp) formula. After having been raised by Weston Price devotees (pre-sally-fallon-WAPF dental professionals no less) and hearing tales of how crappy kids' teeth are if they're given formula and how breastfeeding is just super-easy and real women don't bottlefeed. Well that kicked me into PPD and the next 10 months or so were pretty hellish.

Now my "problem" baby is a gorgeous nearly-7-year-old. She is bright, kind, funny, good company and has perfect teeth ;-) - everything I could have ever hoped for in a child.

And I am 7 years older and a whole lot wiser, and I understand a lot more about bodies and how they work and the universe in general. I now understand that part of why my baby didn't just fall out of me in surges the way my hypnobirthing training suggested was that she was nearly 9 freaking lbs and I am barely 5'0" with all my "height" in my legs, and my hips are not generous. And that I had the misfortune to be born into Western society and have sat on chairs regularly since I was able to sit and my body is not the body of a "naturally raised" human. And that I worked a desk job for 8 years prior to her birth, sitting all the while and wearing heeled shoes. And that I married a guy who was vastly genetically different from me, has a ginormous head and weighed nearly 10 lbs at his own birth, and was "oddly" enough posterior and difficult coming out himself.

I can't go back in time and change these things. Nor, probably, would I.

I'm now pregnant with my second child. My midwife gave me a questionnaire about my birthing preferences and I summed it up in one sentence: "I want a birth with a minimal amount of drama." She laughed, and asked exactly what that meant, and I said it meant that I had no expectations about being able to perform any feats of spectacular womanhood for the sake of my own pride. I want the baby out in the manner that seems safest and least traumatic when the time comes. I'll start with no drugs, but if I am progressing slowly, I will not put my baby through another grueling 24-hour ordeal, I'll take the pit and the epi and get it done. If that doesn't work, I'll take a c-section and I won't moan about it. I hate surgery and I really don't want a six week recovery but if that's what happens, it's what happens. And yes, I know that there are medical problems for which c-sections can play a role, most likely due to improper bacterial colonization when baby misses that fun-fun squish out the vag - but I will talk to my midwife if there's a way around that involving swabs or something if it comes to that.

I'm actually, at this point, kind of done with birth as a thing to get very excited about. It's like weddings. Should not be a huge big deal. Get it over with, have some fun if you can, but for heaven's sake don't mortgage your house (or your soul, for a birth) in order to get a "perfect" day. It's just one day. What comes after - the years of dependence and cuddling and love and growing and learning and the highs and lows and joy and sorrow - that's so much more important.


----------



## 31rubies (Dec 18, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *spughy* 

I'm now pregnant with my second child. My midwife gave me a questionnaire about my birthing preferences and I summed it up in one sentence: "I want a birth with a minimal amount of drama." She laughed, and asked exactly what that meant, and I said it meant that I had no expectations about being able to perform any feats of spectacular womanhood for the sake of my own pride.

First of all, let me say that I am amazed and thankful to see this thread here of all places! I am so tired of women competing thru birth, tearing each other down. We should be upholding one another.

What spughy quoted her midwife as saying about pride....sometimes I think, unfortunately, that it comes down to pride with some women. Birth is actually unpredictable sometimes. I mean, what mother is going to refuse that homebirth/birth center transfer if her midwife says she needs it? What mama is going to be able to have all the info she needs at the exact moment her OB says c-section? Some choices are harder to make in the midst of labor, and any choices or plans you make before labor can go out the window in a minute. As natural and wonderful as childbirth is, some problems arise sometimes that are simply out of our control.


----------



## momof9kiddos (Nov 1, 2012)

Wow, I in no way have time to read through all the posts. But I did see a place while skimming through where someone was saying women who have natural births are lucky. I have had so many people say we are lucky, and it's really offending. One of my births most certainly would have been a C-Section had I been in the hospital, and I had preeclampsia with my first birth. We've also had hemmoraghing at birth, pregnancy anemia, early placenta seperation, 3 weeks overdue, sunny side up, and one birthed with arm above head. Is that being lucky? All 7 of my children have been born at home (5 unassisted) with one being 10 pounds. All have been between 8-10 pounds. We've had our fair share of complications but have somehow managed to still avoid interventions and stay at home. All of the complications were completely unavoidable but we still trusted my body to perform in the way it was made to. We were ready to transfer if needed. We've had people say we're trusting God too much, we're irresponsible, etc. etc. etc. How can you trust God too much? It really irritates me and I feel judged, maybe more so than a mother that had a c-section or interventions.

We are currently pregnant with twins and planning another homebirth. If my midwife told me that I or one of the babies most certainly would die without a C-section, then I'm all for it. I will transfer, I will get that C-Section without guilt. I think God has blessed us with skilled surgeons just for these emergency situations, but I also feel that C-Sections are so overused and it is robbing many women who wouldn't necessarily need one. Mostly that it's easier for the doctor and there is less liability for them if a complication arises. I don't think any birth is a failure, how can birth be a failure? I feel that the doctor failed the mother IF, and only IF they perform procedures that aren't necessary. I am also completely overjoyed to have skilled educated doctors that save lives! The whole birth bashing thing needs to stop, it just makes both sides feel yucky


----------



## Sol_y_Paz (Feb 6, 2009)

When I first thought about childbirth there were a lot of plans I had and made for my ideal. But when it really came down to it what mattered the most was a full term healthy baby. That, to me, was my perfect!


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cat13*
> 
> I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.
> 
> I do, however, disagree with the statement, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life." While this may be true to you (and if it is, that's wonderful!), it is not the truth for so many women who have had c-sections.


i completely agree with this.


----------

