# Ugh! Here comes Santa Claus.



## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Maybe I am the only person who just detests the whole myth, the man, everything about him.








: The only reason I keep it up is because it is so important to everyone in my family: my parents, my dh, dh's family, and especially to ds1, to *everyone* but me.

I am just so exhausted this year trying to keep up the sham. Ds1 is now 8 and of course the kids at school have told him the truth and he doesn't believe them, because "well Grandma wouldn't lie to me." ARGH!!!!!! I have already messed up twice this year on big things saying things like "Oh, I remember when I gave you that." Insert look of horror and ds1 saying "but, Santa brought me that for Xmas!" This is going to end badly I am sure.

Well, I guess this is more of a rant than anything else. Any other Scrooges out there that just don't find Santa to be necessary or fun?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I do not at all care for telling children that "Santa is a real, magical man that will bring gifts to our house on Christmas night." It bugs me.







I am uncomfortable with the lie. I am well aware that many many people do not consider it to actually be a lie, but IMO, unless you believe that a being/man will appear in your home and leave gifts you had nothing to do with buying...it's a lie. Wierds me right the







out. Your son's comment about how "Grandma wouldn't lie to me." is exactly why.

All that being said, I've got no issue personally with the myths and story of Santa when they are approached as just that: myths and stories. I told the kids about how Santa came to be over the years, what cultures have contributed to the myth, etc. I think that the character of Santa is generosity and kindness. I can totally get behind those ideas. Celebrating Santa can be as easy as reading different stories about him, still giggling as you sign presents as being "from Santa" even though everyone knows that they aren't, and practicing giving to those around us in mindful ways. Lying need not have any part of it.

I think if you are really bothered by this you have a right to make a change.


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm going to tell my dd the truth about Santa. Her grandparents are pretty horrified by it. We spend Christmas at her grandparents' so if she wants to pretend that's fine with me, but she will definitely know that it is make believe.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I do Santa. But, once my kids get to the point of asking me about it, I'll tell them the truth, as I did with ds1. It's already upsetting you and your ds...time to fess up, I think - and tell "grandma" (don't know if that's your mom or MIL) that he knows now.


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

My ds is five, and so far he has done well with knowing that Santa is just a "character", as we put it to him. He understands what Santa does, but in his mind it's just a story from a book or movie.

People often say "I want my dc to experience the magic of Santa just like I did as a kid." I have seen my ds year after year experience the magic of Christmas without Santa. Now my dd is 2 and she is just as excited about Christmas. They begged us to put up the tree today. Dd shrieks in the back seat "Kissmas lights!" when she sees them. It's going to be a really fun Christmas with a 5 yo and a 2 yo enjoying the simple things. The baby even enjoys the tree already.


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

We don't do Santa, but like a PP said, we do plan to tell the kids that some people do. When DH was little his parents told him that some other kids played the "Santa game" and that he (dh) shouldn't ruin it for them, so he respected their customs.

Our families don't know yet that we're not doing Santa because we've never had occassion to talk about it, and I'm sure some of them will be horrified when they find out. Oh well.

I hope you can find a way out of your situation.


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

No santa here either. I don't believe in lying to children.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Well, as far Grandma, it's both of them. MIL however is far more into the whole scene than my mom. We unfortunately took on their traditions of having special paper and no writing to signify Santa gifts. Every thing has to be different for Santa gifts, different tape, bows, everything and it all has to be burned afterward to leave no trace. There has to be certain bell jingled to signify that the man has left, certain cookies, and nothing can be wrapped or assembled until Xmas eve. I HATE that the most. I would love to be ahead of the game. I dread it every year. I HATE it.

DH's family thinks it is so funny and cute that BIL believed in Santa for so long he got into a fight and decked a kid for saying that Santa wasn't real at a ridiculous age. I can't remember what it was, but he should have been well past Santa at that point. Now of course I fear that Ds1 will be that kid.

We have two little ones, so Santa is here for a while. I just refuse to say things like "Santa is watching you better be good" or actually bring it up. I do talk about the actual origins of the myths, but I just wish well meaning relatives would realize that he is going to be pretty upset when he does find out that they lied. I am included in that too, and of course that make me feel even worse.


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## FitMama (Jul 20, 2003)

We do Santa. DH didn't grow up with Santa, but I like the idea so we do it.

However, I don't do photos with mall Santas. We don't really go to the mall anyway. Maybe when my kids are older they can write letters to Santa. But I'll be telling them that the mall Santas are just dudes who work in the mall.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elyra* 
We have two little ones, so Santa is here for a while.

I have two little ones, too. DS1 plays along with us..but then, he wasn't upset that Santa wasn't real.

I really think you're going to have to face down your in-laws (and dh?) on this one. They can't just demand that you do things their way. If you want to wrap gifts before Christmas Eve, then do so. If your dh has a problem with it, tell him that you either wrap them ahead of time, or he can do it.

Your situation is ridiculous, and I say that as someone who _does_ do Santa, who enjoys doing Santa, and who also has a different roll of paper for Santa gifts. You're not having fun, and your ds is going to be upset - what on earth is the point???


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## Blooming (Feb 16, 2006)

Not sure what to do about Santa over here. I have gradually been saying things like it's what the spirit of Santa brings that is important, not the gifts etc. And reading more stories about Santa and other winter holidays.
I tell my son people make the choice to beleive in Santa. He can choose to or not.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

We aren't making a big deal about Santa either way. I'm not about to go to special trouble to make Santa seem believable (leaving cookies out, etc). Heck, I buy and wrap all the gifts and put them under the tree as soon as they are ready! Also, it's our tradition to take all the gifts to the in-law's house and open them there on Christmas Eve. So ds will never really get into the whole Santa thing, I'm thinking. On the other hand, I'm not going to go out of my way to have a big discussion with him on how Santa isn't real. So, I guess we'll see.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

I hate the whole santa sham too. I wasn't going to raise my eldest to believe all that crapola, but low and behold the whole rest of the family pumped him full of it and he was so excited about santa that i had no choice but to go along... i coulden't break his little heart like that, kwim? but i resent the way santa gets the credit for the gifts.


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

We have never had santa, the easter bunny or tooth fairy.

My kids know it is a myth. And they have told me before they are happy I do not lie to them about it.
But they also know not to ruin it for other kids that do believe. They understand that legends can be fun and if other kids want to believe who are they to ruin it for other families?

that being said I do hate it when people ask my kids "are you ready for Santa?, Have you been naughty or nice"

My kids just smile and say "Yeah I guess" lol its actually pretty cute because they know its all just a ploy to get them to be good... and they know no kid is good everyday all year round... So they just paste this fake grin on there faces lol


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I absolutely _hate_ the "naughty or nice" crap. My parents never did that with us, and I've never done it with my kids.


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I absolutely _hate_ the "naughty or nice" crap. My parents never did that with us, and I've never done it with my kids.









thats what im sayin!!!


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeannie81* 
I hate the whole santa sham too. I wasn't going to raise my eldest to believe all that crapola, but low and behold the whole rest of the family pumped him full of it and he was so excited about santa that i had no choice but to go along... i coulden't break his little heart like that, kwim? but i resent the way santa gets the credit for the gifts.

That sounds like exactly what happened with me. I even remember when Dh and I were dating me commenting "not my kid" and he just rubbed ds's wee little head and said "you can't do that to him." My mom was all excited to have someone in her court about it, then I met the soon to be inlaws and and I never stood a chance.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2toomany* 
We have never had santa, the easter bunny or tooth fairy.










I acidently killed the tooth fairy a while ago. Poor Ds sat there for like 3 weeks waiting with that stupid tooth in the pillow. Finally he just gave up. Poor little guy. I still feel bad about that.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

We have never done Santa and Kailey absolutely loves the holidays. She will be 6 in February and all her friends believe in Santa. This year she said she wanted to believe in Santa too. So we are having a BLAST with Santa. There is a website www.emailsanta.com where you can email Santa and get an immediate reply with details of your email.

We have always reminded Kailey how she gets gifts, etc and she is still cool with this. But, we are just having fun with it. No good/bad crud at our house though.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I hate Santa. I hate the lying. I went through q genuine crisis of faith that lasted for years as a child after I found out I had been lied to about Santa. I have not done any of the holiday characters with my children.


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## Birth Junky (Jun 14, 2004)

I'm another who will NOT be perpetuating the Santa myth with DD and any brothers or sisters that arrive later. I was absolutely crushed to find out that there was no magical workshop at the North Pole.

We will teach our kids about various traditions of giving from different cultures, but never that there is a real guy somewhere bringing them toys on the night of the 24th.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Big, fat liar here.

We do Santa but I'm careful not to go overboard. He only fills the stockings, all other gifts are from family and friends. There is no "naughty or nice". Everyone, including Santa, gives gifts because they want to, behavior has nothing to do with it. So no one is "watching you" because it doesn't matter. And when my children ask if Santa is real I ask, "What do you think?" and base my answer on theirs.

Ds recently said he wasn't sure and really just wanted to know if Santa is real or not. So I told him the truth, that he's not. Ds doesn't seem at all upset about it and, in fact, is very excited about carrying on the myth for his sister.

So Santa, like a lot of other things, can be overdone and some children will not take well to the myth. If it's fun for your family and no one is insisting on it above all else, I think it's fine. I think there's a happy medium between going all out with the myth and not doing it at all, and if you want to find that medium you can.

ETA - For the OP, it sounds like your situation is less about the Santa myth and more about how your family's holiday traditions are not actually yours and you don't even like them. I agree that the Santa myth is being way overplayed and you have the right to tone it down. But the Santa thing is a symptom, not the actual problem.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

hate it hate it hate it!

next weekend partner is taking the kids to the mall to sit on some perv's lap and profess all their affluenza desires to him.

i hate that i bred into a family that would pretty much pick up a sword to defend the blessed santa.

i find it completely weird and gross.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Mama Q~ You cannot be serious about calling the "santas" pervs. That just really rubbed me the wrong way. Are you saying that adults who have child-centered jobs are all pervs? Please explain that very grotesque comment.


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Within 10 minutes of finding this thread, ds started talking about Santa. I worried about this since he started Kindergarten. I used the "game" idea in another post and told him it was our secret that we know Santa is just a character and that some parents like to play the Santa game. He's excited about our secret and not even telling dh.

I shouldn't worry too much. Another kid at school has fought skeletons and the same kid got bit by a cobra. When we said his friend has a good imagination, ds swore "Yes! He did!"







What an imagination his friend has!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q* 
next weekend partner is taking the kids to the mall to sit on some perv's lap and profess all their affluenza desires to him.

Pervs? What on earth makes you say that? I've never had any weird vibes off any of the store Santas around here...and I definitely pay attention when I get "perv" vibes off someone around my kid!


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blooming* 
Not sure what to do about Santa over here. I have gradually been saying things like it's what the spirit of Santa brings that is important, not the gifts etc. And reading more stories about Santa and other winter holidays.
I tell my son people make the choice to beleive in Santa. He can choose to or not.

I like your approach a lot!!

I think "allowing" children to believe in Santa is a great way to introduce the concept of having faith in something.

children believe in a magical man that will bring them a gift under the tree.

in most religions the act of faith or having faith is a major part of believing there is indeed a god. Most people have never seen or heard or even felt the presence of god...so how do they know for themselves that god is there?

they have faith.

it's a beautiful virtue/concept to foster in our children.

then when they decide to make a choice in what they wish to believe in they have had the practice at least in believing and having faith in something.

i think it's a beautiful, magical experience for children. I think as adults we could be a much more peaceful and happy society if we all practiced having faith in the magic and wonder and love around us.

Christmas and Santa are real. At least to me anyway!

Merry Christmas. Love Ang.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Ang, while I respect the spirit in which your post was written, it sounds like your trying to rationalize lying.

Children can have faith and believe in things of substance, such as their parents, friends, family and community.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

We don't do santa with our dc, I've never said anything about santa, but dd1 has seen pics and grandma read her the night before X-Mas. We were were at the mall the other day and "santa" came up to dd1 and tried to talk to her. It was so funny, she just gave him a look like "dude, why are you all dressed up" and kept on walking.


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## ChristineIndy (Jan 3, 2006)

I think the (short, novella-length, really) book "The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus" by L. Frank Baum (who wrote The Wizard of Oz) is the loveliest compromise on the Santa myth that's out there today. In it, Santa starts off as a human child who is abandoned in a mythical forest to by raised by nymphs (lots of environmental and nature themes) and the story expands from there.

For mamas who want a middle ground, I highly recommend giving it a read to see if the "story" might work for your family.

Christine


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

Thats a very odd statement that santas are pervs..

While I think thats just crazy. I do find it annoying when I go to the mall and see a baby screaming in santa's lap while mom and dad jiggle toys to try to make the baby smile for the camera... I saw that last week and I wanted to say something to those parents... they had that poor 9ish month old baby screaming and shreaking for them for almost 15 minutes... I was on a play date at the toddler center in the mall and santa is right next to it.


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## Birth Junky (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2toomany*
I do find it annoying when I go to the mall and see a baby screaming in santa's lap while mom and dad jiggle toys to try to make the baby smile for the camera... I saw that last week and I wanted to say something to those parents... they had that poor 9ish month old baby screaming and shreaking for them for almost 15 minutes...









:

I feel so bad for those poor babies who are frightened and upset during the photo-taking.


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## koru (Sep 7, 2006)

we don't do santa here either & all my friends & neighbors are starting to be fearful that my kids will spoil the fun. has this happened to any of you or are you preparing to be the "bad parent" on the block/in school/on the street?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I do not at all care for telling children that "Santa is a real, magical man that will bring gifts to our house on Christmas night." It bugs me.







I am uncomfortable with the lie. I am well aware that many many people do not consider it to actually be a lie, but IMO, unless you believe that a being/man will appear in your home and leave gifts you had nothing to do with buying...it's a lie. Wierds me right the







out. Your son's comment about how "Grandma wouldn't lie to me." is exactly why.

All that being said, I've got no issue personally with the myths and story of Santa when they are approached as just that: myths and stories. I told the kids about how Santa came to be over the years, what cultures have contributed to the myth, etc. I think that the character of Santa is generosity and kindness. I can totally get behind those ideas. Celebrating Santa can be as easy as reading different stories about him, still giggling as you sign presents as being "from Santa" even though everyone knows that they aren't, and practicing giving to those around us in mindful ways. Lying need not have any part of it.

I was going to write something, but that pretty much says it all for me!

I think dp might have wanted to "do" Santa, but it really is much more important to me to be completely honest, than it is important to him to do Santa. kwim?


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## mb722toddler (May 4, 2006)

My DD is 2 and starting to ask questions. I do not want to lie to her. I think having an imagination is fun and good.

I know my family thinks I am very mean when I told her that Santa is a make-believe man. I have been having so much turmoil lately from family & society for my parenting style. They think I am mean not to give her daily sweets/sugar, and that she will be a "bad" girl because of my style of gentle discipline.


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## TxMominCT (Nov 23, 2006)

We did Santa when I was little, I thought it was so cool when I figured it out! (my Mom was a little horrified, that I was so young, but Dad thought it was funny that I figured it out) Anyway, I know most kids don't feel that way. My dh's family didn't really do much of a Santa thing, so we probably won't either. Although I did get mall pictures. dd is only 6mo and it was so cute! She loved Santa, she didn't even really want to come back to me, she could see me, but thought his suit and beard were way cool and needed to be played with more! I don't think we'll do a lot of Santa stuff with our kids though.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

We don't "do" Santa here, either. But I will admit that I had DS's picture taken with a mall santa when he was 6 weeks old for the kitsch value. He was not upset at all, or I wouldn't have done it. Neither of my kids would go near any Santa since. One very nice Santa threw little bags of M&Ms to them when they wouldn't get within 20 feet of him.

I never talked Santa up, but there might have been one present for each person from "santa", and that is just when someone wants to give a surprise anonymously. Then we all get to be Santa if we want to.

My son is 6, and has never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I never did, either, and it drove my mother BONKERS. She cajoled, made threats ("only kids who believe in Santa get presents"), everything to try to get me to believe. I think some kids just use their rational powers and decide that these things don't make sense. I would never make him doubt his own faculties by trying to get him to believe in things that don't exist.

It's wierd, because at this point I cringe when I hear people talking about Santa in the traditional way. It seems so alien to me, even though it is what I grew up with.

L.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette* 
My son is 6, and has never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I never did, either, and it drove my mother BONKERS. She cajoled, made threats ("only kids who believe in Santa get presents"), everything to try to get me to believe.

I just do _not_ understand this kind of thing at all. Even as someone who "does" Santa, I just don't get it. Why would anyone do that to a child?


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I just do _not_ understand this kind of thing at all. Even as someone who "does" Santa, I just don't get it. Why would anyone do that to a child?

Like someone else said....I think for many people, believing in Santa is a stepping stone to believing in other supernatural beings.

You can visit Santa and talk to him, but when Santa visits you, you're not aware of his presence. Santa rewards you if you're good, and gives you coal if you're bad. Santa has magical powers. He sees everything you do.

Sounds like religion.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
I like your approach a lot!!

I think "allowing" children to believe in Santa is a great way to introduce the concept of having faith in something.

children believe in a magical man that will bring them a gift under the tree.

in most religions the act of faith or having faith is a major part of believing there is indeed a god. Most people have never seen or heard or even felt the presence of god...so how do they know for themselves that god is there?

they have faith.

it's a beautiful virtue/concept to foster in our children.

then when they decide to make a choice in what they wish to believe in they have had the practice at least in believing and having faith in something.

i think it's a beautiful, magical experience for children. I think as adults we could be a much more peaceful and happy society if we all practiced having faith in the magic and wonder and love around us.

Christmas and Santa are real. At least to me anyway!

Merry Christmas. Love Ang.









I really think that the sentiment is lovely. My mother really believes in the way that you are speaking of. So I do understand what you are saying. When my mom told me the same things, I felt really like she was trying to justify it as was also mentioned. My specific problem with that line of thinking is believing in Santa seems so manatory. I haven't really ever run across anyone that taught their children, "well, there may or may not be a Santa. You need to search your heart and decide for yourself how you feel about it. However, each year I get gifts for you and put the under the tree while you sleep." In my home Santa was always there until we knew the truth, and then that is the other part that bugs me. There is a "truth". No man comes down your chimney on Dec 24 and departs in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer. It really doesn't matter how much faith you have, there isn't a man doing that.
I do believe faith is a wonderful thing, and that we should foster that in our children. I just don't see how Santa factors into that for me.

Quote:

I think as adults we could be a much more peaceful and happy society if we all practiced having faith in the magic and wonder and love around us.
I really agree with every word of this.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles*
Sounds like religion.

To me that is so creepy.


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

For me, the existence if Santa is not automatically a lie. If a child were to ask me (and mt two year old hasn't







), I would tell them some people think there is a Santa and some people don't--you have to decide for yourself (my opinion is not more valid than anyone else's). I'm kind of dissappointed that most adults really believe that the "truth" is Santa's a myth! My mom taught me that everythibg exists, it's just a question of when and where!









Now, the truth about who left those presents under the tree is another question all together--if you left them, you know it!







: We're not really planning to have presents from Santa--just stockings, but I expect Santa to come up in homeschool at which point we will discuss different traditions of Santa, origins, portrayals of Santa (guy at the mall), spirit of Santa, and possibility of Santa. Hmmm, rereading this, we will probably approach religions similarly. My religion states that what is true is what's true for you, so I'm not telling my kids there is or is not a Krishna!









We do plan to leave cookies for Santa (dh insisted we do that even when we didn't have dd, and we secretly fill up each other's stockings too). It's a game and a fun Christmas tradition for us.

I don't have a problem with families that go whole hog on Santa--it was a definite possibility that we considered. I think our decisions will keep it fun for us in a less commercial way than some Santa traditions!


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_b* 
I'm going to tell my dd the truth about Santa. Her grandparents are pretty horrified by it. We spend Christmas at her grandparents' so if she wants to pretend that's fine with me, but she will definitely know that it is make believe.

Okay, I have a question. I plan on telling the truth about Santa, too, but how does one DO this when your child is only 3 years old. Sure, you can tell them the story about a man who comes down the chimney and leaves presents at Christmas but he's not real, but I am not sure that at that age, they really understand the difference between real and fantasy. And the fact that all of DD's little friends will be insisting that Santa is coming is going to make this task even harder. Any thoughts on this?

To the OP: Show your son the respect he deserves and tell him the truth. He is old enough and the longer you leave it the greater chance that he really will feel lied to later on. If you ask me, he already does know and he is leading you by the chain in order to keep the gravy train of presents coming but that's just my humble opinion.


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## TxMominCT (Nov 23, 2006)

Okay I couldn't resist I'm posting again! My only problem with the Santa teaches faith line of reasoning, is that we are playing Santa. Some mythical/magical man does not bring toys. So if that is our way of teaching faith, our children might grow up and no longer believe in God (or whover you believe in) because they outgrew it, like they out grew Santa. I believe that my God is real and does real things, not in the same sense of people who believe in the spirit of Santa. I also believe in the spirit of Santa, but it's different than my other applications of faith. I may not be making any sense, and I'm not trying to preach to anyone, or tell them their way is wrong but that's just my take!


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't think there is a thing in the world wrong with doing Santa. But I won't ever lie to DS when he asks if he's real. I'll ask him what he thinks and go from there. When he asks me straight out, I'll tell him.

We did Santa and I eventually just knew it was my mom. No issues here from it. Santa is part of the fun of the season for us personally.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TxMominCT* 
My only problem with the Santa teaches faith line of reasoning, is that we are playing Santa. Some mythical/magical man does not bring toys. So if that is our way of teaching faith, our children might grow up and no longer believe in God (or whover you believe in) because they outgrew it, like they out grew Santa.

Or it might not make a difference at all.

My parents never did Santa with me, and I believe that gods don't exist.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I love Santa, and we definitely welcome the jolly old soul at our house. My daughter is five, and she believes unquestioningly. As soon as she asks, though, we'll tell her the truth -- Santa is the spirit of giving and generosity in us all, not a literal person, Mommy and Daddy give her those presents.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Okay, I have a question. I plan on telling the truth about Santa, too, but how does one DO this when your child is only 3 years old.

My kids are 8 and 11. I always told them Santa was just a story that some people pretend is real with their kids. My kids never had a problem with the concept.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I don't think there is a thing in the world wrong with doing Santa. But I won't ever lie to DS when he asks if he's real. I'll ask him what he thinks and go from there. When he asks me straight out, I'll tell him.









:


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## Spiral (Jan 19, 2004)

I have known a few people in the past who's parents never did the Santa thing and were told from the beginning he was just a made up man etc.. ~~All three told me, as adults, they wished their parents would have given them the joy of experiencing Santa, even if a myth. ~They also made an interesting point. Have you ever known a person who grew up to be angry at their parents for allowing Santa to be part of their lives until they grew out of the idea?

I remember thinking, WOW! I never knew anyone who did not do the Santa thing, minus people who celebrated other religious holidays. These were definitely interesting conversations.

~Just thought I'd share.

Have a great day.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I totally can relate to the no Santa? - no god! thing as well. I was horribly upset that my parents had lied to me about Santa and it took me years to realize that they were not serial liars. I left their church and their home as soon as I could beat a path away.

My own kids are blissfully living without santa or holiday madness. We spend our winter with games and quiet times around the fire and extra cookies we bake together. I like it so much more than the crazy junk I grew up with.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spiral* 
Have you ever known a person who grew up to be angry at their parents for allowing Santa to be part of their lives until they grew out of the idea?

I've never known anybody in real life who was upset about playing Santa, but I've seen several posts on these forums from people who felt betrayed by their parents.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

Quote:

I left their church and their home as soon as I could beat a path away.
Really? Entirely because they pretended there was a Santa Claus? That seems like kind of a strong reaction.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spiral* 
I have known a few people in the past who's parents never did the Santa thing and were told from the beginning he was just a made up man etc.. ~~All three told me, as adults, they wished their parents would have given them the joy of experiencing Santa, even if a myth.

Here's a fourth! ::raises hand::

Like I said, my parents never did Santa because they didn't believe in lying to children. I think my parents had issues with separating one idea from another. I don't think that pretending and lying are the same things. My parents also never encouraged me to do well in school or to try out for extracurriculars because they didn't believe in "pushing" children. It's like, they go to extremes.

Anyway, I did Santa with both of my kids, but it was always treated with an element of lightness. DS1 asked me when he was five if Santa is real. I asked him what he thought. That led to a discussion of mythology and superstition. DS2 figured it out when he was about 7. Nobody had any hard feelings, as far as I can tell.


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## TxMominCT (Nov 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
Or it might not make a difference at all.

My parents never did Santa with me, and I believe that gods don't exist.

I agree with you too! It really may not make a difference, but I still think it isn't a good teaching faith tool!


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

My parents did Santa. Well, my mom did. My dad was out of the picture during those years. My mom got really pushy about it when I caught on to the implausibility, and I felt she was insulting my intelligence, because she didn't have any real rebuttals to my arguments. It wasn't a huge betrayal or anything like that, but I thought the whole thing was awfully silly.

In my book, the notion that Santa is 'practice' for faith is just one more argument against







: We are a nonreligious family, but it seems to me that if my children have a need for faith, they will find it on their own, without having to be trained in it when they're too young to think critically. Blind faith can be a terribly dangerous thing, also...

I think the holidays have magic and to spare without pretending Santa is real. I do like the idea of presenting Santa as a fun pretend game that people like to play, and plan on taking that approach.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

My husband is worried about Santa, mostly because he knew some people in college whose faith in their parents was shattered when they learned the truth. I, on the other hand, love Santa and still kinda believe in him today. OK, I believe in the spirit of giving that seems to be present in December, not some guy in a red suit. I also believe in imagination and I realized that it takes a lot of imagination to believe a fat man can fit down a tiny chimney (and all the other implausibilities).

I also *enjoyed* shattering the myth of Santa when I was little. I remember doing handwriting analysis on the gift card (Santa did use different paper) and one year I realized the handwriting was too close to my mom's. The next year I set a trap for Santa. My dad would come check on us to make sure we were asleep. Since I had a problem with smiling if I was awake and faking being asleep, I pulled the covers up to my nose so my dad wouldn't notice me smiling. He and my mom then went downstairs to put out the presents from Santa and I snuck down the stairs avoiding the creaky one. I burst into the living room yelling, "caught ya, caught ya" - fortunately I didn't wake little brother and sister. I thought I was so smart.

Anyways, I enjoyed the whole thing soooo much I feel like I would be depriving DD if I didn't allow her the opportunity to catch me. I too feel uncomfortable with lying so I think I will just follow her lead if she asks if Santa is real. Of course, DH and I have to agree on a strategy first.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
. Of course, DH and I have to agree on a strategy first.









Yes, believe me that is key.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

We've always been truthful. DS was 4 the first time the issue came up (we aren't Christian and were travelling during Christmas when he was 3, before that he was too young to ask about it). He asked who Santa is and I told him about how Christmas to us means giving gifts to people we love to celebrate them and let them know we care about them and love them. I explained that some people take this spirit of generosity and call it Santa and believe in the guy in the red suit coming down the chimney and leaving presents by the tree. His first question "is it true?". I asked what he thought. He said: "no, it's the Mommy and Daddy".

But then later he said that on Christmas eve he wanted to take all of his toys and put them in the living room by the fireplace so that when Santa came down the chimney he would see that DS has enough toys and give the ones in his bag to other kids who don't have any!!!!!







Wow!

Anyway we've never tried to convince him that it's real- we just ask that if his friends believe that he let them believe. Now if his friends ask him if Santa is real he answers: "he's real if you believe he is, he isn't if you don't ".


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moochie Mamma* 
But then later he said that on Christmas eve he wanted to take all of his toys and put them in the living room by the fireplace so that when Santa came down the chimney he would see that DS has enough toys and give the ones in his bag to other kids who don't have any!!!!!







Wow!

What a generous boy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
I remember doing handwriting analysis on the gift card (Santa did use different paper) and one year I realized the handwriting was too close to my mom's.

We still do occasionaly "Santa" gifts in our family. These are usually some offbeat little gift where the giver wants to remain anonymous. (For example, my mom gave my dh a stuffed moose a few years ago, and it was from "Santa".) When we do that, we'll usually get a friend or co-worker or something to write the tag.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Sooo...could someone explain to me what the harm is in letting your child believe in something that you don't?


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

It's not so much _letting_ them believe as actively encouraging/manipulating their belief, and therein lies the problem, IMO. I'm not big on faith. I'm a hardnosed INTP







and a great fan of empiricism. I don't have a problem with my kids or anyone else having faith, but I'm not going to push it on them, nor will I allow others to push faith on them while they are under my care.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~* 
Sooo...could someone explain to me what the harm is in letting your child believe in something that you don't?

I don't think there is any harm it them believing in something I don't. Perfect exsample, my oldest son is a Christian and I am not. I don't discourage it at all. He knows that there are a lot of different religions and such. He treats everyone's beliefs with respect.

My problem is telling your child that Santa is a real man that comes down your chimney when he does not. I think that fosters mistrust and is just lying. I am all for telling them some people call the spirit of Xmas Santa, and where the myth came from. Again my family goes overboard in Santa and makes up details and really pushes "Santa is a man. The man is real." That I can not get behind in a good spirit.


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

I come from a family where Santa has always been a part of our holiday tradition. Every year, we did the milk & cookies, stockings, sleeping downstairs in the living room with the tree. I mean, when I came home from college to my parents' house for the holidays, I slept on the couch (waiting for Santa) even though my room upstairs still had a bed in it. We did stockings, gifts from Santa, etc...
Still do.

BUT, I never was lied to, never was told Santa was a real person, etc... It's like a game my family plays for fun. If she's into it, and it's done in fun (and NOT as a manipulative tool to teach her to behave or else...) I think it could be really cool to do it with Isa too. But more like, Santa brings joy to everyone all over the world because Santa is the spirit of giving... that sort of thing.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I am having trouble understanding the posts that say when the child asks we will tell the truth, so therefore we aren't lying. You have told them a story. And, you produce evidence to reinforce the story that you've told is true. How is that not lying?

How about if I read my child a story saying that there was a band of generous owls living in our attic and that they provided us with all of our basic necessities. And, then I put groceries on the counter with owl feathers to make it seem like they'd left the food. And, then I played a tape of hooting sounds to make it seem like the owls were really there. And, then I took them to the mall which was decorated with pictures of owls and had them visit with a person dressed in a giant owl costume and that person reinforced my story that yes indeed the owls are providing us with all our food and what kind of food would you like them to bring? And, then I made sure that exact kind of food was left for us perhaps with a note from from the owls.

It is totally cool for me to create this whole owl deal and it isn't lying as long as the day the kid asks "hey mom are you lying about the owls" that I come clean? Also, when I'm the one who made up the story, produced evidence to try to convince my child that it is true, how is that magical or an example of a child using their imagination? To me it just sounds like creepy deception.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spiritmomma* 

BUT, I never was lied to, never was told Santa was a real person, etc... It's like a game my family plays for fun. If she's into it, and it's done in fun (and NOT as a manipulative tool to teach her to behave or else...) I think it could be really cool to do it with Isa too. But more like, Santa brings joy to everyone all over the world because Santa is the spirit of giving... that sort of thing.

Unless your child live in a bunker they will be exposed to the idea that being good is part of what makes Santa comes. It is in the song and random strangers will say it to them in the grocery store. I'm not convinced parents can really pick and choose what parts of the lie they want to tell.

As far as Santa visiting everyone in the world, how exactly does that work for a kid. I remember very clearly thinking as a five year old that not all kids got good toys from Santa. Some kids got barely anything. How does that work? It would have been much easier and more productive for me to understand that not everyone's parents have the same resources than to be told that some kids just aren't as good.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
How is that not lying?

How about if I read my child a story saying that there was a band of generous owls living in our attic and that they provided us with all of our basic necessities. And, then I put groceries on the counter with owl feathers to make it seem like they'd left the food. And, then I played a tape of hooting sounds to make it seem like the owls were really there.......And, then I made sure that exact kind of food was left for us perhaps with a note from from the owls.

It is totally cool for me to create this whole owl deal and it isn't lying as long as the day the kid asks "hey mom are you lying about the owls" that I come clean? Also, when I'm the one who made up the story, produced evidence to try to convince my child that it is true, how is that magical or an example of a child using their imagination? To me it just sounds like creepy deception.


Oh man, this post is dead on for me. Seriously. This is exactly how I feel.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Unless your child live in a bunker they will be exposed to the idea that being good is part of what makes Santa comes. It is in the song and random strangers will say it to them in the grocery store. I'm not convinced parents can really pick and choose what parts of the lie they want to tell.

I heard the song (I even sang the song). I had strangers ask me if I'd been good. I never once made the connection that I wouldn't get anything from Santa if I was "bad". Neither did my brother - neither did my sister. Neither did my best friend, whose parents also avoided the "be good or Santa won't come" crap. I don't know anybody who thought that Santa only brought gifts to "good" children. If what parents say isn't what shapes the myth for children, then why don't kids believe in Santa if theire parents tell them the truth?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I am having trouble understanding the posts that say when the child asks we will tell the truth, so therefore we aren't lying. You have told them a story. And, you produce evidence to reinforce the story that you've told is true. How is that not lying?

It's lying. It doesn't bother me.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's lying. It doesn't bother me.

So are parents pretty much allowed to make up whatever stories they want, feed them to their kids like they are the truth as long as it is entertaining for the parents? Or, is there a point at which it would be wrong?


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I heard the song (I even sang the song). I had strangers ask me if I'd been good. I never once made the connection that I wouldn't get anything from Santa if I was "bad". Neither did my brother - neither did my sister. Neither did my best friend, whose parents also avoided the "be good or Santa won't come" crap. I don't know anybody who thought that Santa only brought gifts to "good" children. If what parents say isn't what shapes the myth for children, then why don't kids believe in Santa if theire parents tell them the truth?

Okay, but do you accept that some children maybe more observant or have more well developed critical thinking skills? At the age of three my child was able to observe based on questions he got at the grocery store that many people believe that there is a Santa and if you aren't good you get don't get gifts.


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roar*
Unless your child live in a bunker they will be exposed to the idea that being good is part of what makes Santa comes. It is in the song and random strangers will say it to them in the grocery store. I'm not convinced parents can really pick and choose what parts of the lie they want to tell.

As far as Santa visiting everyone in the world, how exactly does that work for a kid. I remember very clearly thinking as a five year old that not all kids got good toys from Santa. Some kids got barely anything. How does that work? It would have been much easier and more productive for me to understand that not everyone's parents have the same resources than to be told that some kids just aren't as good.

I think what I meant about having it not be a manipulative tool and having it be a fun game was that I wouldn't perpetuate the idea that Santa was a real person. It's like Santa is the face of giving. I don't think I'm explaining myself well, and it's frustrating me! I mean to say that when I was growing up, I never felt lied to because it was never implied to me that Santa was a real person. It was implied that it was a fun thing to pretend.
The only analogy I can think of is the "I've got your nose!" game adults often play with children. No adult wants the child to actually think he or she has stolen the child's nose, but they play convincingly that they have. And the child often plays along, "hey! give me back my nose!" all the while, smiling and knowing that their actual nose is still on their face and that it would be absurd to assume otherwise. I would play the Santa game like that since that is how it was played with me when I was a child and I enjoyed it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Okay, I have a question. I plan on telling the truth about Santa, too, but how does one DO this when your child is only 3 years old.

I'm going to tell ds that Santa is pretend, like Winnie the Pooh and Bob the Builder. Even if he can't really differentiate at 2.5 between real and pretend, he will grow into it. I won't do anything to make Santa seem more real than I would with Pooh (by pretending that his stuffed Pooh is talking, or whatever.) So I'll never say "Santa is coming." But I won't necessarily harp on the fact that he's pretend, either. I will make it clear that he's pretend, but I don't harp on the fact that Pooh is pretend either, kwim?
I have a feeling that ds will view Santa the same way he views Pooh.

I do find Santa *the real live man* to be a lie. Like other pp's have said, if you KNOW that there's no man coming to give presents, and you tell or imply to dc that there is indeed such a man- a real live man, with real presents, there's no way it isn't a lie.
Dp agrees that it is a lie, but sees nothing wrong with it. I can see his point, so I'm not judging those that do it like Storm Bride does. But

Another thing that I've heard- people want their kids to have an imagination, and think that Santa will help. (I actually had someone ask me how ds will develop an imagination if we don't do Santa). How does it take an imagination to believe in something that, as far as you know, is real? kwim?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So are parents pretty much allowed to make up whatever stories they want, feed them to their kids like they are the truth as long as it is entertaining for the parents? Or, is there a point at which it would be wrong?

It's also entertaining for my kids, or I wouldn't consider doing it. Yes - there's a point at which it's wrong. When my dd asks me if Santa is real, I'll tell her "no", just as I did with ds1. Continuing to push it when the child is asking questions is messed up.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Okay, but do you accept that some children maybe more observant or have more well developed critical thinking skills? At the age of three my child was able to observe based on questions he got at the grocery store that many people believe that there is a Santa and if you aren't good you get don't get gifts.

I was extremely observant as a child - so was ds1 - and had well developed critical thinking skills. I was well aware that many people believe there is a Santa and if you aren't good you don't get gifts. But, _I_ didn't believe it, because the lyrics to a song or a question in a grocery store were about what _other_ people believed, not about what my family and I believed. I didn't believe in god just because my aunts, uncles and grandparents did, so why would I believe that I had to be "good" for Santa just because some stranger asked me if I was?


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Also, when I'm the one who made up the story, produced evidence to try to convince my child that it is true, how is that magical or an example of a child using their imagination? To me it just sounds like creepy deception.

If you take your kids to a puppet show, is it deceptive? I mean, you can't see the actual people holding the puppets. It looks as though the puppets are moving and speaking on their own.

Do some kids think the characters on Sesame Street are real? Possibly. Are their lives shattered when they learn the truth? Doubtful.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

Honestly I can't see how there's any way mine will believe Santa is a real literal guy, because my husband and I discuss this very issue in front of him all the damn time!







Usually with comments about all the things our specific friends are doing to convince their kids: "Scott bought the malted milk balls for 'reindeer poop' today. And he made a tape of hooves and jingle bells and 'Ho Ho Ho' too. How in the world is he going to explain to Alex that Santa's not a real guy?" I think our problem is going to be getting him not to reveal the secret to his cousin! (Although I don't know what the cousin thinks yet - have to check with my in-laws!)

I think we were also "taught", if you can call it anything that formal, that Santa was a fun thing to pretend. (Hell, when you live in the desert, White Christmas is a fun thing to pretend!) And we did "do" Santa - presents from him (though oddly they were wrapped in our wrapping paper and addressed in handwriting that looked JUST LIKE my mother's), stockings, cookies and milk left out that were gone in the morning, sometimes even torturing my parents good-naturedly by staying up superlate and claiming it was OK because we were last on Santa's route! (I remember at least once being shooed off to bed amid great laughter and being told, "We have to put together your presents from Santa and we want to get some sleep!") So I think you can have the "magic" of Santa without it being a sterile sort of "this is what other people believe" intoned sermon. (Not that I think most people do that - I just saw a post where a woman's acquaintances who hadn't had Santa as children felt they had missed the magic.)


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
If you take your kids to a puppet show, is it deceptive? I mean, you can't see the actual people holding the puppets. It looks as though the puppets are moving and speaking on their own.

Do some kids think the characters on Sesame Street are real? Possibly. Are their lives shattered when they learn the truth? Doubtful.

First, I find this totally dismissive of the feelings of the many people who posted here that they were hurt to find out their parents were lying to them. To those children this was a significant and upsetting event.

Second, I'm hard pressed to imagine you can't see the difference between telling a child: A: this individual is watching you, they are going to bring you presents, we are going to visit them...and then producing physical evidence to support your claim

and

B: Today we are going to a show with puppets. Do you know what a puppet is?

I will also say I'd be shocked if I'm the only person here who had a child cry when first confronted with puppets! I can't imagine if we told him they were real and would be entering our house during the night and leaving gifts. Yikes!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I was extremely observant as a child - so was ds1 - and had well developed critical thinking skills. I was well aware that many people believe there is a Santa and if you aren't good you don't get gifts. But, _I_ didn't believe it, because the lyrics to a song or a question in a grocery store were about what _other_ people believed, not about what my family and I believed. I didn't believe in god just because my aunts, uncles and grandparents did, so why would I believe that I had to be "good" for Santa just because some stranger asked me if I was?

In your opinion do most children believe in the naughty-nice and good-bad part of the Santa story? Is it your contention most children simply skip over that part? I've known several children who lived in families without punishment where they had not been introduced to this part of the story that ended up believing in it and worrying about it.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's also entertaining for my kids, or I wouldn't consider doing it. Yes - there's a point at which it's wrong. When my dd asks me if Santa is real, I'll tell her "no", just as I did with ds1. Continuing to push it when the child is asking questions is messed up.

I find it very odd to say that a child finds being lied to as entertaining. I totally see how a child could find playing a game entertaining or voluntarily participating in a fantasy as entertaining. But, you child isn't consenting to be entertained, they are simply believing what has been suggested to them as being true by people they love and trust.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
In your opinion do most children believe in the naughty-nice and good-bad part of the Santa story? Is it your contention most children simply skip over that part? I've known several children who lived in families without punishment where they had not been introduced to this part of the story that ended up believing in it and worrying about it.

I've never known a child who believed that part of the story, except one whose parents _taught_ that part of the story. I have no idea what most children believe, but most children that I personally know do not believe that they have to be "good" to get presents from Santa.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I find it very odd to say that a child finds being lied to as entertaining. I totally see how a child could find playing a game entertaining or voluntarily participating in a fantasy as entertaining. But, you child isn't consenting to be entertained, they are simply believing what has been suggested to them as being true by people they love and trust.

Well, dd is looking forward to Santa coming. I looked forward to Santa coming when I was a kid. I was entertained - totally. When I found out that mom and dad were Santa, I was amazed that they'd gone to so much work just to add some extra magic to the holidays. If dd feels differently, I'll apologize profusely and sincerely...but I really don't see it happening. There's never been a single kid in our family who has been upset at finding out that Santa was mom and dad.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never known a child who believed that part of the story, except one whose parents _taught_ that part of the story. I have no idea what most children believe, but most children that I personally know do not believe that they have to be "good" to get presents from Santa.

I do.

I find it odd to make decisions based only on whether or not you know someone who has had a negative outcome. I personally don't know a single kid who was hurt by not using a carseat, but I'm able to accept that it is still important. I don't personally have to have had a negative experience in order to think about it critically or consider another person's perspective with that issue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I do.

I find it odd to make decisions based only on whether or not you know someone who has had a negative outcome. I personally don't know a single kid who was hurt by not using a carseat, but I'm able to accept that it is still important. I don't personally have to have had a negative experience in order to think about it critically or consider another person's perspective with that issue.

What perspective? I've seen a very few posters here talk about feeling betrayed by the "Santa Lie". In every case that I can remember, either the relationship with the parents had other issues or the parents tried to push it far beyond the "having fun" stage. So - what perspective should I be considering it from? If it were only that I didn't mind finding out about Santa, that would be one thing...but I don't know _anybody_ who was upset by it, except for those people who have posted here. Yes - I'm intellectually aware that dd or ds2 might be upset when they find out - but someone else posted about people who were upset that their parents _didn't_ do Santa.

I'm also not sure why some kids seem to (from your posts) absorb this "be good" crap, but it's not something I've seen happen - ever. (The kid who got coal in his stocking one year because he was "bad" probably believed it, but that's it.) If the outside world is over-riding the parents to that extent, then why don't the kids whose parents _don't_ do Santa believe in him in the first place?

The carseat analogy is a bad one to use with me. I'm not convinced that they're beneficial and I hate them with a passion.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

The carseat analogy is a bad one to use with me. I'm not convinced that they're beneficial and I hate them with a passion.

Wow. Yeah, we certainly won't agree about Santa then. Nevermind.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Wow. Yeah, we certainly won't agree about Santa then. Nevermind.


Yeah, I am right there with you.







:


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## little-g (May 30, 2006)

My parents always told me Santa was real. I absolutely believed in Santa until that time that inevitably comes to all children when reality overtakes and the child figures out or asks directly. It was no-big deal - I think I _wanted_ to believe rather than _actually_ believing for a long time, so the transition to openly acknowledging that Santa was mum and dad was gradual. Ipersonally don't remember feeling hurt or confused in the slightest.

I was also an avid believer in fairies. I was convinced that they lived at the bottom of our garden and ate berries and drank rose petal tea out of gum-nut cups. I remember being told by a boy at school that they weren't real and going home to ask my Dad. My dad - who is a total pragmatist - told me that he himself had seen fairies dancing on his windowsill when he was a child in Africa, and that they were absolutely, totally real. I wouldnt call him a liar.

I was just talking about this with dad the other day. I look back at that time of childhood as a magical, imaginative fantasy time when amazing things were so real to me.

At the end of the day, its everyone's individual choice so I dont really care at all how others approach it. But I would totally P.O'd if someone else told my DD he wasn't real.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *little-g* 

I was just talking about this with dad the other day. I look back at that time of childhood as a magical, imaginative fantasy time when amazing things were so real to me.

I agree that is important. What is sad for me is that for many kids that time comes to a screeching halt the minute they realize that they were lied to about Santa. That is a kind of death of innocence.

No Santa here and I can't imagine our son being more imaginative. He spends the better part of his life in a fantasy world of his own creation. I see that as incredibly different than being the involuntary participant in a lie that someone else foisted on you.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

You'd be upset if someone else told your daughter that you had been lying to her? Well, I can only imagine.

We have always told our daughter Santa is just a fairy tale like Pooh bear, but this year she just really wants to pretend, so we are having a blast.

IF I decided to tell her oh yeah santa is real and some other child told her otherwise how could I blame THAT child for not concealing a lie I was telling my child?

It's also not MY responsibility to keep up with the LIE you CHOOSE to tell your child, so if a child asks me if santa is real I am going to say NO.

Also, about "pretending". It is ONLY pretending when ALL parties participating in the "game" know it's a game. Otherwise you are LYING.

Rationalizing a lie, NICE.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Roar, again right there with you.
Kailey is one of the most imaginative children I know (and I work with children). She creates and invents stories, people, and places with such minute detail, it's astounding and all this without a religion or, gasp, Santa Claus.


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## little-g (May 30, 2006)

Yes, I would be upset that someone couldn't hold their tongue just for the sake of our family's tradition. Many people around the world of many different cultures believe/participate in many childhood and otherwise stories. All sorts of stories of different spirit characters, gods, sprites, goblins, entities etc are spun. Is it your duty to dispel all of these too? Or is Santa a special target?


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Then I guess you will just have to be upset, because most likely your child will be faced with others spilling the beans to your child.

As far as other cultures/traditions: this is a lie. cultural traditions based on faith are in a completely different realm. Parents/families are not telling their child a supernatural being exists only to crush them with the "truth" later.

Do you just not see the issue here?


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## little-g (May 30, 2006)

Yes, I see the issue perfectly clearly. I understand that obviously to you, and many others, it is a falsehood to tell your children that Santa is real. To me, and also many others, it is perfectly acceptable. I am not here to convince you that you are wrong. I really don't give a fig what your attitude towards Santa is. All I am saying is, respect mine - dont go telling my DD that Santa isn't real just the same as I wont go try and convince your children that he is. I dont really see the big deal.

Not all cultural traditions are based on 'faith' - Im referring to the myriad of children's customs, stories, folk stories and fables that adults relay to children, when the adults are fully cogniscant of the story's fictionality. IT happens everywhere, all the time.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

We have told Kaeleb that Santa is the spirit of giving at Christmas and have explained the legend. It's a story and that is the way that we present it in our house. I think it's pretty awful to make out that Santa is a 'real' person. He's not. He's a fairytale - and a wonderful one at that. Kaeleb absolutely LOVES stories. So, he loves Santa. He does understand though that Santa doesn't come to his (or anyone's) house and bring presents.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *little-g* 
Yes, I see the issue perfectly clearly. I understand that obviously to you, and many others, it is a falsehood to tell your children that Santa is real. To me, and also many others, it is perfectly acceptable. I am not here to convince you that you are wrong. I really don't give a fig what your attitude towards Santa is. All I am saying is, respect mine - dont go telling my DD that Santa isn't real just the same as I wont go try and convince your children that he is. I dont really see the big deal.

Not all cultural traditions are based on 'faith' - Im referring to the myriad of children's customs, stories, folk stories and fables that adults relay to children, when the adults are fully cogniscant of the story's fictionality. IT happens everywhere, all the time.

So because something wrong happens all the time, that makes it right?

I don't see how it is MY responsibility to cover up for your lie, I just don't get that. I'm not going to go out of my way to tell your child that you lied to him/her, but if a child flat out asks me if santa is real I am going to say no.

What if I wanted to start a tradition with my family telling the story of how native americans slaughtered white people when they landed on the continent. That native peoples are vicious and cruel. What if I told this story at thanksgiving and told my children that the reason for thanksgiving is because our white anscestors were strong and overcame the evil native people.

Would that be ok in your eyes?

Oh wait, that story already exists, guess I'll have to think of a new one.

Tradition my arse.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Second, I'm hard pressed to imagine you can't see the difference between telling a child: this individual is watching you<snip>...and then producing physical evidence to support your claim....

People do this every day in church. I think religion has caused way more harm and grief to the world than Santa Claus.

So yeah, maybe I'm being dismissive.


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## little-g (May 30, 2006)

I dont really need stretched analogies linking Santa with white supremicist mythology sorrounding native peoples, especially considering my backgound here in Australia. I feel quite comfortable that I can draw a distinction between a mythical figure of gift-giver and the distorted pseudo-historical imaginings of a bunch of right-wing nuts.

Listen, obviously this means a big deal more to you than it does to me. I'm not really interested in entering into a long drawn-out debate about Santa Claus, especially when it's apparent that I am not even able to claim it as a tradition. Yep, really not interested.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Ok, I'll digress. Some families have traditions of lying. Happy now?


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spiral* 
Have you ever known a person who grew up to be angry at their parents for allowing Santa to be part of their lives until they grew out of the idea?

Well yeah, plenty of people, actually. And I personally did NOT grow up with Santa and I never felt I missed out on anything (we did celebrate Christmas with the typical tree, gifts, etc.).


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Same here. I just think it's a bizarre argument that children miss out on the "magic" of Christmas without santa, when clearly there are so many wonderful REAL things involved in the holidays.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

We don't like him either. Today, my son saw him at an event and said "Theres the Christmas boy."


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Same here. I just think it's a bizarre argument that children miss out on the "magic" of Christmas without santa, when clearly there are so many wonderful REAL things involved in the holidays.

Well, fwiw, I don't think my children would miss out on the magic of Christmas without Santa - they'd just miss out on the magic of _Santa_. They're related, but not the same, and Santa was a huge part of the holidays for me when I was a kid.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

FWIW, they arenot related or connected because if they were Kailey would be issing out on the magic of Christmas, which she iis not.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
It's also not MY responsibility to keep up with the LIE you CHOOSE to tell your child, so if a child asks me if santa is real I am going to say NO.


I have such a delimma with this personally. I have been asked by children about Santa. I say "I don't believe in him." It is a very true statement. Then they ask if I get gifts from him, and I say "No, Santa doesn't bring me gifts." Then they usually ask if Santa brings Ds gifts. That is where things get really tricky for me. I say "Ds believes in Santa." If he is there he tells them he does.

I respect that there are people that lie to the kids and do the whole Santa bit. My parents did it to me and my brother. As soon as I found out I told my brother. He was very little, and my parents tell me to this day "You ruined Xmas from him." He has never said it to me, but for all I know I did. I feel guilty about that, (but then that would be a whole other post!







) However, I feel that it is the parents responsilblity to fess up and admit the truth, there is no Santa. It isn't my job to deal with the little depressed little faces and wilted spirits.

On a note in my home, I attempted to have a converstation with Ds about Santa being real or not. He cut me off and said "Mom, I don't care if he is real or not. I want to believe in him. Sure I would be dissapointed that he isnt' real, but I still believe." So there you have it. Who ever said he knew, but was playing along, you were right!


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *little-g* 
Yes, I see the issue perfectly clearly. I understand that obviously to you, and many others, it is a falsehood to tell your children that Santa is real. To me, and also many others, it is perfectly acceptable. I am not here to convince you that you are wrong. I really don't give a fig what your attitude towards Santa is. All I am saying is, respect mine - dont go telling my DD that Santa isn't real just the same as I wont go try and convince your children that he is. I dont really see the big deal.

The problem is, it is not just a question of "respecting" your tradition. In requiring me to answer in the affirmative when your child asks me if Santa is real, you are forcing ME to participate in YOUR tradition. This is something that I don't want to do and it might even offend my personal values to lie to a child. I would not actively try to convince someone else's child that Santa was not the one bringing him or her presents on Christmas Eve but were the child to ask me outright, I do not think that my answer would be yes. It might be an evasive "What do you think?" or "You will have to discuss that with Mom and Dad" but I do not think that I would reply "yes, he is real".

With respect to your agreement not to try to convince my child that Santa is real, well, we have people all around us every day of this month trying to convince my 2-year old that Santa is real. Her daycare, our neighbours, her grandmother, all the stores. One extra voice in our consumer culture is not going to make much of a difference.


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *potty diva*
Also, about "pretending". It is ONLY pretending when ALL parties participating in the "game" know it's a game. Otherwise you are LYING.









: I agree with this. And this is the way my family pretended together. It was a game that all parties were privy too and it was fun! This is the only way I feel it's appropriate to do Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy, etc... As long as it's a pretend game where all know the truth and choose willingly to participate.

When I was about 12, "Santa" brought us new bikes while we were sleeping downstairs on the couch. I distinctly remember my dad bonking me in the head with the handlebars and waking me up, but I pretended to be asleep to keep the game going! I pretended that it didn't wake me so the integrity of the game could continue. After all the kids woke up and enjoyed our gifts , I joked with my dad about it (in front of the whole family) and all had a good laugh.








That is the kind of game that I think can make a family's holiday traditions fun and meaningful.

Also wanted to add that my neice (who is 7) told me she knows Santa isn't real and that her dad refuses to give up the game. Now she is no longer having fun with it. I feel that this is just as inappropriate as lying in the first place.


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## pixiexto (Mar 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momz3* 
We don't like him either. Today, my son saw him at an event and said "Theres the Christmas boy."
























:

My own thoughts on the whole Santa deal is that it's more for the adults than for the children, kwim? The adults are the ones that seem to glean the most pleasure out of it, while I see a lot of kids just kind of staring at this Santa dude at the Mall and wondering what to make of it.

In a nutshell, I think Santa is a fun story. I just don't think that kids NEED to believe there really is a Santa that comes down the chimney in order to find magic in the holidays. To believe so, in my opinion, really underestimates them.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo* 
We do Santa but I'm careful not to go overboard. He only fills the stockings, all other gifts are from family and friends. There is no "naughty or nice". Everyone, including Santa, gives gifts because they want to, behavior has nothing to do with it. So no one is "watching you" because it doesn't matter. And when my children ask if Santa is real I ask, "What do you think?" and base my answer on theirs.

This is just what we do also, except Santa fills the stockings and brings one special toy. The rest is from whoever really gave it.

I am also not a fan of pretending the mall Santa is the real deal. Some years we pick one special occasion/location where the "real" Santa will be for visits but the mall Santa is always just a nice helper for Santa, visiting with the kids while Santa is busy getting ready for Christmas at the North Pole.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
FWIW, they arenot related or connected because if they were Kailey would be issing out on the magic of Christmas, which she iis not.

How do you figure that Kailey would be missing out on anything, just because Santa and Christmas are related? The magic of Christmas itself, and the magic of Santa aren't the same thing. I, personally, am glad my parents did Santa with us - I loved the magic of Santa. I'd have felt that I'd missed out on Santa if they hadn't done it...but that doesn't mean I'd have missed out on Christmas.

Saying they can't be related because your dd would be missing out if that were the case makes no sense. That's like saying that the smell of a Christmas tree isn't related to Christmas, because kids with fake trees would be missing out on the magic of Christmas. If we did fake trees, _I'd_ feel as though I was missing out, but my kids wouldn't. The smell of the tree is part of the whole thing _for me_, but not for them. Since kids with fake trees don't have the smell of pine/fir, does that mean that trees aren't related to Christmas, either?

Whatever Christmas traditions a family has are _related_ to Christmas. That doesn't mean people who don't have those traditions are missing something...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nicole77* 
This is just what we do also, except Santa fills the stockings and brings one special toy. The rest is from whoever really gave it.

I am also not a fan of pretending the mall Santa is the real deal. Some years we pick one special occasion/location where the "real" Santa will be for visits but the mall Santa is always just a nice helper for Santa, visiting with the kids while Santa is busy getting ready for Christmas at the North Pole.

That's us - one gift, the stocking, and the mall Santa is Santa's helper, not Santa himself.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PottyDiva*
I'm not going to go out of my way to tell your child that you lied to him/her, but if a child flat out asks me if santa is real I am going to say no.

That would make me angry as a parent who does encourage a belief in Santa. It is not your place to flat out tell my child there is no Santa. What would be so difficult about you being respectful by doing something like this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
I would not actively try to convince someone else's child that Santa was not the one bringing him or her presents on Christmas Eve but were the child to ask me outright, I do not think that my answer would be yes. It might be an evasive "What do you think?" or "You will have to discuss that with Mom and Dad" but I do not think that I would reply "yes, he is real".

No one is saying you absolutely must tell my child yes or actively try to convince them, just that you recognize that it is not your place to be the myth dispeller. Why not just say "What do you think?" and then smile and nod and say "Isn't that nice" through the rest of the conversation the way I presume you would if a child was telling you about her menagerie of pretend puppy dogs? Or would you feel the need to enlighten her about their nonexistence as well?


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## wife&mommy (May 26, 2005)

My son is only 16 months but we made the decision last year not to do Santa. I was one who felt lied to and betrayed when I found out that Santa wasn't real and I don't want to do that to my son. DH didn't feel that way but agrees that we should not lie to him. We are going to tell him the story, present him as a character, and if he wants to pretend then we will go with it, but he will know the truth.
Just wanted to add what we will do as well. Part of our families hate this and it has caused a major issue, but its not their choice.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nicole77* 
That would make me angry as a parent who does encourage a belief in Santa. It is not your place to flat out tell my child there is no Santa. What would be so difficult about you being respectful by doing something like this:

No one is saying you absolutely must tell my child yes or actively try to convince them, just that you recognize that it is not your place to be the myth dispeller. Why not just say "What do you think?" and then smile and nod and say "Isn't that nice" through the rest of the conversation the way I presume you would if a child was telling you about her menagerie of pretend puppy dogs? Or would you feel the need to enlighten her about their nonexistence as well?

I would say then you would have to just be angry then. If you are afraid of adults who are AGAINST lying to children, then I suggest you STOP lying to your child. It's that simple.

I would not have a lengthy conversation with a child about whether or not Santa exists, but if the question was asked, "Is Santa real?" I would answer with a no. I despise having my questions answered with another question and it seems very demeaning and dismissive.

As for "pretend" puppies dogs or other pretend friends, children know if their pretend friends are real or not, they simply choose not to acknowledge the fact. And again, the child is ACTIVELY aware of the pretending. Unlike the perpetuating the lie of Santa ALL parties are involved with the pretending.


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## Nyamae's Mama (Nov 30, 2006)

Nope. Don't plan to do santa! I can not support the idea of unrealistic lies to our child. I know that poeple think that the myth creates childhood fantasy and encourages a happy outlook of the world. However, it also risks mistrust for parent information and decreasing enjoyment of Christmas as an adult.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

And I'm not willing to risk this. When I am lied to I mistrsut the person who has done the lying. If I am lied to and find out it had been a lie that was kept up for years, I doubt trust could be rebuild very easily. Then I wonder who else has been lying to me if this was lied about. How would I know when someone is lying or not?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I would say then you would have to just be angry then. If you are afraid of adults who are AGAINST lying to children, then I suggest you STOP lying to your child. It's that simple.
Oh come on. If I knew that you believed in God, and your child asks me if there is a God, I would respect your beliefs and go along the lines of "that's what many people believe." I wouldn't say flat out no, even though I think that God is as much of a lie as Santa is, and could make the same argument you are making about it. It's about having some basic respect for the beliefs of others.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Hmmm...I think it would be just fine for a child to hear that others don't believe in Santa or God or whoever.
I believe in a Goddess. I would never expect anyone to answer a question from ds in any way but simply honest. "I do not believe in a Goddess."
That's where faith comes in. If everyone believed something were true, it wouldn't take too much faith to follow along, kwim?

Now, I would be irritated if someone said "There is no such thing." But then they have no way of *knowing* that. I think its fair to say that most adults *know* that there is no man in a red suit bringing gifts to every home in the world on Christmas. I'd still not say "There's no such thing as Santa"- that seems a little mean. But if it came down to it, and I couldn't find any other honest way to deal with the situation (if I remembered, I'd refer then to their parents), I'd express MY personal beliefs (and qualify them as such).


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm amazed at the length parents will go to justify lying to their children, and THIS on a natural parenting site. Shame on you mamas!


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## serenetabbie (Jan 13, 2002)

This is such an interesting thread!

I have two kids (5 and 8). I always said I would not lie about the whole Santa thing, because I remember being so crushed when I found out there was no real fat guy in a red suit. I remember feeling cheated, like... if my parents were Santa why didn't they listen and get me exactly what I wanted? I can see some stranger with tons of kids to give gifts to not knowing I really wanted a cable knit sweater (or whatever)... but my own parents? OTOH, I was happy that I could go to bed without worrying about the dogs biting Santa









So, I used this tactic for years;

Quote:

Why not just say "What do you think?" and then smile and nod and say "Isn't that nice" through the rest of the conversation the way I presume you would if a child was telling you about her menagerie of pretend puppy dogs?
We told DS (8) that the guys in the mall, etc, were not the real deal, but helpers. He accepted that, and bought into the whole Santa thing hook line & sinker with no prompting from us. Then DD came along. When she was about 3, she asked Gramma why on earth would Santa bring presents to their house... why not just bring them all to OUR house? My MIL lied and said "Oh, I guess Santa was confused". I was upset she outright lied like that, but kept my mouth shut. I could see DD's mind working on that the whole two hour ride home. She asked a lot of questions about Santa that I answered with my stand bys "What do you think?" and "Some people say...". The next morning, DD asked me flat out "Is there really a Santa?". I said no... but then I explained the whole myth and the "spirit of Santa", the real reason we give each other gifts to celebrate the birth of Jesus, the Three Kings, and so forth. I felt so much better, and I could tell she did too. The whole Santa thing always made her tense and a little weirded out that some fat guy was going to break into the house, eat cookies and leave presents for no good reason (or worse, break into gramma's house where she's all alone!). Plus the whole "he sees you when you're sleeping" thing made for some great conversations on privacy and spying







I am glad to be done with Santa!


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## serenetabbie (Jan 13, 2002)

Ok, after I let the dogs out to run in the yard... I thought I should come back and say that I also told the kids that Gramma just loves them so much she did not want to hurt their feelings, and different people have different ideas about the holidays. I did explain that people give gifts out of Love for one another... and the spirit of sharing, generosity and love is what the season is really about, and the things that Santa is supposed to embody.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
I'm amazed at the length parents will go to justify lying to their children, and THIS on a natural parenting site. Shame on you mamas!

Yeah, you and I are never going to come together on this one so I am not even going to bother. And I will not be shamed, especially by you of all people since I think you have shown an amazing level of contempt and disrespect for the traditions of others in this thread.

P.S. You may want to review the UA before you post again...


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Oh come on. If I knew that you believed in God, and your child asks me if there is a God, I would respect your beliefs and go along the lines of "that's what many people believe." I wouldn't say flat out no, even though I think that God is as much of a lie as Santa is, and could make the same argument you are making about it. It's about having some basic respect for the beliefs of others.









: I think that is a great analogy. I think god, in particular a Christian God, is a completely fictional character. However, not in a million years would I disrespect someone's beliefs or traditions by telling their child that. At best, if pushed after the "What do you think?" answer, I would say that I personally do not believe in God but that many people do and that is what keeps things interesting, that we all have different ideas and traditions. Blah, blah, blah.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

ANd I think you Nicole, should do the same.
And perhaps rethinking your definition of tradition would most likely be beneficial as well.

I do agree we will not see eye to eye on this and will bow out of this thread.

To the mamas who have chosen truth over trend: thank you.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

We do not lie to our dd so we will never tell her santa is real. It is not really an issue to me what others think. This year she is happy to play along with the idea that he is some sort of cartoon character. She has absorbed the guy from outside of the home. We do get her a santa present. But when the time comes that there is a discussion, we will explain that it is a myth and that we like to pretend for the fun of it.

But, I am posting to address the people that are worried about others not lying to their kids to perpetuate the myth. I also would not lie to a child that asked me straight up if santa is real. BUT, I have to say that any kid that is asking point blank questions about santa, to people other than thier parents, needs to be told anyway. They are seeking the answer to something that is troubling them. If a child was unsatisfied with the answers he/she were getting from parents and then felt the need to start asking others, it is time for them to know. I would not lie, but I probably would not answer either. I would tell them they need to ask their parents. Many kids get very upset when they find out thier parents lied to them so it is probably best they get that info from the parents so they can try and do repair or justifications or whatever the plan is. If after all of that the kid still is asking me, I would tell the truth.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I would not lie, but I probably would not answer either. I would tell them they need to ask their parents.

I think that's a totally reasonable and respectful way to handle it. Getting on a high horse and insisting that you will indeed tell "the truth" to any child who asks if Santa is real is very disrespectful of different parenting styles.

We all do things differently and we all have disagreements. To trump your way as the only right way is ignorant.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

I'm curious, if anyone wants to share-- Is there some common trait amongst people who were really traumatized by finding out their parents lied about Santa? More sensitive? Did your parents play it up really huge and try to deny it when you asked? I know I personally was a bit disappointed when I found out the fat man in the red suit didn't REALLY come down the chimney, but it wasn't that big of a deal. So much so that I can barely remember when it happened. I do remember thinking I really got one over on my parents when I figured out they were the tooth fairy but didn't tell them I knew.







But I wasn't a particularly senstive child, and we were fairly strict Catholics, so Christmas was always more about Jesus than Santa anyway.

We do Santa, but we don't do it "big", if that makes sense. We don't go to any extra trouble to make it seem like he's been here-- different paper, sooty footprints, reindeer poop, none of that. We do leave out cookies, but pretty much because dh likes any excuse to eat cookies.







Some presents are from Santa, some are from Mommy and Daddy. If you want your picture with the mall Santa, you can have it, if you don't, that's fine too. We certainly don't do "naughty or nice" or "Santa's watching you!". That kinda creeps me out.

But I worry a little, because dd is waaaaaaay more sensitive than I was as a kid. Of course, by the time I figured that out, we had already introduced Santa. So we've scaled it back. And if and when she asks, I'll tell her the truth as I see it....Santa's just a spirit of giving and holiday magic, not a real person. So anyway, that's why I was wondering if there was a common thread in those who were really upset by no Santa.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myjulybabes* 
I'm curious, if anyone wants to share-- Is there some common trait amongst people who were really traumatized by finding out their parents lied about Santa? More sensitive? Did your parents play it up really huge and try to deny it when you asked? I know I personally was a bit disappointed when I found out the fat man in the red suit didn't REALLY come down the chimney, but it wasn't that big of a deal. So much so that I can barely remember when it happened. I do remember thinking I really got one over on my parents when I figured out they were the tooth fairy but didn't tell them I knew.







But I wasn't a particularly senstive child, and we were fairly strict Catholics, so Christmas was always more about Jesus than Santa anyway.

We do Santa, but we don't do it "big", if that makes sense. We don't go to any extra trouble to make it seem like he's been here-- different paper, sooty footprints, reindeer poop, none of that. We do leave out cookies, but pretty much because dh likes any excuse to eat cookies.







Some presents are from Santa, some are from Mommy and Daddy. If you want your picture with the mall Santa, you can have it, if you don't, that's fine too. We certainly don't do "naughty or nice" or "Santa's watching you!". That kinda creeps me out.

But I worry a little, because dd is waaaaaaay more sensitive than I was as a kid. Of course, by the time I figured that out, we had already introduced Santa. So we've scaled it back. And if and when she asks, I'll tell her the truth as I see it....Santa's just a spirit of giving and holiday magic, not a real person. So anyway, that's why I was wondering if there was a common thread in those who were really upset by no Santa.

I don't know. I was not traumatized in the slightest. My parents were and still are unflinchingly honest with us, and I never thought of Santa as a lie that my parents told me. I know that technically it is, but as a kid I never saw it that way. I was not an overly sensitive child. My younger sister was, though (and still is). She too was not traumatized when she was of the age when she asked and was told the truth by my dad. So I think it must have more to do with the relationship with the parents in general, and how the parents "did" Santa. I really have a hard time buying that a relationship that is otherwise built on trust and mutual respect is ruined because of Santa. But hey, I guess anything's possible.

I have no worries about how Santa is handled with my kids. I'm more worried about when I'm tired and burnt out and I snap at them. I think that has much more potential to damage our relationship.


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

without reading the entire thread...

we do "santa isn't real, it's just a fun game people like to play and we can play it too if you want... btw saint nicholas was a real person and he did xyz..."

it's worked well for us!


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## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

Ugh, gaga me with a spoon....we're experiencing htis horrid drama too!!! I am going to shove my mom up the damn chimney!!!!







: And she's on this weird Jesus kick...which I, as a pagan, makes me really uncomfortable.
I personally feel, why go out of your way to involve Santa?
And...as a feminist,hardworking womyn, I'll quote my friend's mom "Why should some old,fat,white guy take all the credit for what I worked for and got excited about all year long?" And it's not about saying "See, DS, be gratefull to mama and papa- look at what we did for you" but at the same time..it's not right to give it to someone else.
And I am not into lying. It's lame. I never bought santa.
Plus, we celebrate X-mas with the fam in addition to our private solstice...gift giving and tree having(a live tree however that gets planted) for pure commercial purposes.
I like what you said Lisa Lubner. If DS ever wants to celebrate santa, fine why not and we can talk about where he comes from,etc. But I feel why go out of the way to do it,ya know?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lizzo* 
Ugh, gaga me with a spoon....we're experiencing htis horrid drama too!!! I am going to shove my mom up the damn chimney!!!!







: And she's on this weird Jesus kick...which I, as a pagan, makes me really uncomfortable.
I personally feel, why go out of your way to involve Santa?
And...as a feminist,hardworking womyn, I'll quote my friend's mom "Why should some old,fat,white guy take all the credit for what I worked for and got excited about all year long?" And it's not about saying "See, DS, be gratefull to mama and papa- look at what we did for you" but at the same time..it's not right to give it to someone else.
And I am not into lying. It's lame. I never bought santa.
Plus, we celebrate X-mas with the fam in addition to our private solstice...gift giving and tree having(a live tree however that gets planted) for pure commercial purposes.

lol. That whole post was quite humorous. I love it. lol

Just wanted to say that the difference between "God" and "Santa" (in re: to the analogy made earlier in this thread) is that the parents in the former DO believe God is real. Parents in the latter KNOW that Santa is not true.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
lol. That whole post was quite humorous. I love it. lol

Just wanted to say that the difference between "God" and "Santa" (in re: to the analogy made earlier in this thread) is that the parents in the former DO believe God is real. Parents in the latter KNOW that Santa is not true.

Yes, but the parents have chosen to tell their child that God is real. Who am I to tell the child otherwise? I personally believe it is a lie, but I have respect for the parent's choice about what to tell their child.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm just kinda debating for debate's sake. I'm not going to tell a child that there is no such thing as Santa. Because I'd think that would be harsh for the child to find out that way, (or to be told that what they believe is untrue)kwim? If they were to keep pressing me, I don't know. Like I said, hopefully I'd have the presence of mind to tell them to talk to their parents about it.
I'm just saying that I don't mind if someone tells ds their personal beliefs, even if they disagree with mine. As long as they qualify it as THEIR belief, they don't say it as the TRUTH. kwim?
And yeah, I'll tell ds not to tell other kids that Santa's not real. That's not an issue for another couple years though. lol


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I don't know. I was not traumatized in the slightest. My parents were and still are unflinchingly honest with us, and I never thought of Santa as a lie that my parents told me. I know that technically it is, but as a kid I never saw it that way. I was not an overly sensitive child. My younger sister was, though (and still is). She too was not traumatized when she was of the age when she asked and was told the truth by my dad. So I think it must have more to do with the relationship with the parents in general, and how the parents "did" Santa. I really have a hard time buying that a relationship that is otherwise built on trust and mutual respect is ruined because of Santa. But hey, I guess anything's possible.

I actually was a very sensitve kid but I never remember being upset about Santa. I don't remember when I found out but at some point I figured it out. I remember nothing but good feelings.

[/QUOTE]I have no worries about how Santa is handled with my kids. I'm more worried about when I'm tired and burnt out and I snap at them. I think that has much more potential to damage our relationship.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, me too.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

You scrooge!! LOLOLOL!!

In our family, *I* am the one who LOVES Xmas with all my heart... dh is the scrooge... he can't be bothered. WHATEVER!

One day last year, ds1 asked dh something about Santa and dh came out with "well *I* am Santa" (which, in fact, is the truth, right?) and we've just gone with that this year... the "rule is that ds can't tell his friends because it's a big "secret" etc... so, it works for us.

Yah.... so, I guess I won't be asking you to accompany us on our annual "find the tackiest house display" tour LOLOL


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## 3boobykins (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa Lubner* 
without reading the entire thread...

we do "santa isn't real, it's just a fun game people like to play and we can play it too if you want... btw saint nicholas was a real person and he did xyz..."

it's worked well for us!

Same here. I just got a children's book about Saint Nicholas out of the library--a mixture of legend and possible facts. Haven't read it yet, but it looks pretty good. We also say that the idea of Santa Claus is the spirit of love and giving. We tell them not to tell other kids that Santa isn't real. As the kids get older, we'll also talk/read about the pagan origins of Christmas. We aren't Christian or pagan, but will eventually talk about Jesus as a teacher of love and explain that his birth is being celebrated at Christmas (even though it didn't actually occur on Dec. 25, etc...)


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Interesting thread.

Honestly, santa doesn't even come up here. Ds is almost 4 and he has no idea. It's just not part of our lives, we don't care about santa, and it's not part of our daily conversation so there's no reason for him to ask about it. We don't shield him from the outside world or shun santa, but we don't go for commercialism at the holidays so don't go to malls or go crazy with gifts so it simply isn't a part of our lives and he'd have no reason to bring it up.

We go to all kinds of holiday events and have a ball without santa- lights displays, live nativities, concerts, model train displays. We go on a holiday trolley ride, during which the trolley stops and santa gets on to talk to all the kids- he has no idea who it is and I guess figures it's a man in a red outfit saying hi.

When he gets gifts of course we say it's from mom and dad, or grandma or whoever- like PP said, why would I want to give credit to a fictional charactor when a loved one has gotten a gift for him.

I'm sure as he gets older friends might mention it or he might notice santa's presence- to me it's like mickey mouse or any other character- he might recognize who it's supposed to be but it has nothing to do with us or our daily lives. I have no problem saying 'this is what other kids think' if he were to ask. And of course I wouldn't want him to spill the beans to other children!

My parents did santa and the easter bunny, etc in a fun way for us growing up, but we never thought it was real, and I was the one to tell the other kids that santa was fake! my friend's mom was SOOO mad!! I certainly wouldn't want my kids to do that.


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sisyphus* 
You scrooge!! LOLOLOL!!

In our family, *I* am the one who LOVES Xmas with all my heart... dh is the scrooge... he can't be bothered. WHATEVER!

One day last year, ds1 asked dh something about Santa and dh came out with "well *I* am Santa" (which, in fact, is the truth, right?) and we've just gone with that this year... the "rule is that ds can't tell his friends because it's a big "secret" etc... so, it works for us.

Yah.... so, I guess I won't be asking you to accompany us on our annual "find the tackiest house display" tour LOLOL









:





















I am totally up for the tackiest house display event if you are inviting. I also I am caroling fool. I *LOVE* to go xmas caroling. Just Santa...not such a fan.









myjulybabes I'll share that I was a very senstive child. Now, I know I had a bit of Sensory Integration issues myself. I found some gifts by accident when I was about 5 or so. I thought they were for my cousin. When xmas came they were wrapped under the tree for my brother. I called my mom on it right then and she lied right to me. I told them I saw them in her closet and that she bought them and she told me no again. I went and checked right then and they were gone. I remember hounding her for months about it. She finally fessed up, and I was really upset that she lied to me. I then told every one I saw Santa wasn't real. I was so upset that I put so much effort into my letters and cookies, and all that and it was for nothing. I'm still bitter.














No, once I was old enough to get it, I understood. My mom was all about the spirit of xmas and faith, and she explained how much fun it was for her. That made me let go of a lot. I still am not a Santa fan though.


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
All that being said, I've got no issue personally with the myths and story of Santa when they are approached as just that: myths and stories. I told the kids about how Santa came to be over the years, what cultures have contributed to the myth, etc. I think that the character of Santa is generosity and kindness. I can totally get behind those ideas.

Yes. IMO, one of the underlying stories behind Santa is the theme of giving. Hopefully, through these experiences, your children (and others) will learn to be generous.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Am I the only one who can't remember believing in Santa?







My family "did" Santa, but I always knew it was just a game. Can't decide if this means that I was observant or that I have a bad memory.

Anyway, I don't like Santa either. DH and I had a minor blow-out about this last year, because he wanted to do Santa and I didn't. He "won," but the weird thing is that I find I am the one dutifully bringing up Mr. Claus and he is the one not bothering. I think maybe I actually convinced him of my POV and he convinced me of his.







Isn't that weird?

I am definitely not going to strenuously swear that he is real, though. Ick.

Interestingly, DD just doesn't seem to care anyway.


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## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Am I the only one who can't remember believing in Santa?







My family "did" Santa, but I always knew it was just a game. Can't decide if this means that I was observant or that I have a bad memory.

No, I totally never "did" santa. I knew it was BS. I have no clue if my sister (3 years younger) bought it or not.
I do however remember in 1st grade my (horrid, awful, evil) teacher REALLY pressed santa, gave "evidence" of how he existed and I was like...hmmm MAAAAAYBEEE he IS real.
That's why I have no idea why my mother feels it's so GD important to do it...
**PS: this computer has spell check...why does santa have to be capitalized??


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

I finally got through this thread!

I wanted to say that when I was seven my mom and my sis told me the truth about santa (and the easter bunny and the tooth fairy) because they thoguht I'd figured it out, but in reality I had had no clue, and it crushed me. That was the beginning of the end of childhood. I kept on believing in Santa (delusionally) until I went away to college, I think...

I'm trying to figure out how to do it with our girls. I will not lie, but I still want to play the game. DH is the same. Also, Santa only brings homemade or wooden toys, one per child. I think if my children ask me, I'll treat it the same as when they ask about fairies. I believe fairies exist, but I ask my daughter what she thinks.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lizzo* 
**PS: this computer has spell check...why does santa have to be capitalized??









It's a proper noun.


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