# do you know anyone IRL who supports Bush?



## jannan

am asking this because i was watching msn news ane this poll came out that put bush a squeak ahead kerry. i was like"what are people thinking"? I personally don't know anyone who supports Bush . I mentioned this to a co-worker and she said"i don't know anyone either but you have to remember sf is a liberal meca" so, maybe she is right.


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## EFmom

I have an ultraconservative sister who I'm sure supports Bush. I try to avoid having any political conversations with her because I find her views toxic, so I can't be 100% sure.

Other than that, no I don't know anyone IRL who does either.


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## morninglark

Yep. sad to say, but my dad is a huge Bush supporter







: --in crazy love with him as far as I can tell, the way his eyes get all misty as he defends his service record, his "intelligence," etc. I also have family north of her (I am in esseff as well), who are stalwart Bush supporters. It is like a cult.(IMHO)

I don't get it, but I have seen it with my own two eyes. But even with this "evidence" I still can't understand that others still support Bush at such sustained numbers.


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## jannan

where exactly north. when i think of northern california i think of humbolt and that is the pot capital of this state. i just cannot fathom where all this support is ...............


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## Chaja

Sadly I know LOTS of Bush supporters IRL - check-out my location!!! Good news is I also know LOTS and LOTS of anti-Bush people and they are serious about getting rid of him!!! I doubt it'll be enough for Kerry to win Texas - but there are definitely some people here serious about getting him and his cronies out of office!!


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## hvl25

Unfortunately yes. My dad and my best friend and her husband







:


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## Elphaba

Some of my best friends and favorite people support Bush. I love them anyway. My ILs on the other hand........ :LOL


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## ekblad9

Yep, me! And a ton of my friends and family. Proud to say it too!


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## karlin

Almost everyone I know IRL is a Bush supporter, except my husband and I. My location pretty much says it all too. No idea why we have democrats for senators, but a democrat running for president hasn't carried SD since before I was born as far as I know. People here think I'm a darn dirty







anyway..lol. :LOL


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## morninglark

jannan,
I am talking about redding, red bluff, etc. CA is pretty liberal on the coast, but if you go inland, it is quite conservative.


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## mcimom

Amen ekblad7!


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## Cranberry

Unfortunately I have some family members who are pro-Bush. We don't discuss politics very much. It could get ugly. We all tried to maintain a sense of humor during the election nightmare of 2000 when we didn't know who (Gore!) won the election for a few weeks.

I want one of those bumper stickers that says *Re-elect Al Gore!!!*


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## Shonahsmom

I work for a whole lotta very wealthy white men and I am sure I would get fired if I were to make my politics known; they worship Bush!

My brother-in-law is a Bush lover also.

A very cool thing though... Bush has turned my dad into a latent raving liberal!!!! Yeahhhh!!!!


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## gossamer

Yup, me, dh, best friend etc...
Gossamer


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## cappuccinosmom

Yeah. Me.







Dh. My folks. Both entire churches that we regularly attend....

That's not to say that we all agree with everything that he's doing/done. But we just feel he's a lesser evil than Kerry.


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## ~Megan~

I know quite a few, probably half or more.


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## IslandMamma

Well, thankfully I live in a pinko commie liberal enclave, where Bush supporters are like needles in a haystack. Invisible, but they really stick you when you find 'em!









I love where I live. I feel safe here. It's the rest of the country I fear for...


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## pilesoflaundry

None personally but way more than I care to think about online on various boards. I respect everyone's entitled to an opinion but I honestly cannot understand how anyone can like him except for religious reasons.


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## joesmom

i assume most of my inlaws are for bush. i have not asked because i don't really want to know.

i can understand the people who USED to support him but i cannot believe the number of people who still do. (this is not meant as an attack of anyone here, JMNSHO.

i hope in the next poll he is a squeak BEHIND kerry!


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## Shonahsmom

I am genuinely and deeply baffled that anyone who watched his press conference last week can possibly feel okay about re-electing this arrogant moron.


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## BoobyJuice

Unfortunatly yes, but luckily most think he's the antichrist. My MIL's 2nd husband is completely and utterly pro-Bush. But they have way big bucks, so as they are constantlly whining, they stand to lose big money if Kerry is elected. I never say anything because once I started I wouldn't be able to stop, but it's like what about the rest of us? My real shocker was a friend of mine. Said he like him because he's an "ass kicker" and liked that he took care of buisness after 9-11. I was speechless. This is a normal, intelligent friend of mine. It's like, ummm, have you paid any attention to all of this. And the worst was a very dear friend of mine who I adore but basically only pays attention to her own life and nothing going on in the world. When I was ranting she actually said, "He's a bad president? I didn't know he'd done anything."

OK so there are my 3. What accounting for everyone else in the polls?

OH and IslandMamma I want to live where you live! Is there room for everyone?


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## PurpleBasil

Quote:

_Originally posted by amarasmom_
*I know quite a few, probably half or more.*

















you mean half a brain, yes?


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## EFmom

Quote:

A very cool thing though... Bush has turned my dad into a latent raving liberal!!!! Yeahhhh!!!!
Yup, he's had the same effect on my lifelong republican in-laws. I think I'm gonna have to buy MIL an ACLU t-shirt!


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## TiredX2

I know plenty of them.

Mostly don't discuss politics with them (since I would like to retain them as living friends).


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## isleta

my dad and some relatives. Mostly because of their spiritual beliefs. If I bring up all the stuff he has done, they redirect it back to spirituality. O fcourse, I live in OC and it's all conservative here! So, I do get the looks regarding my bumper stickers.

And ITA on the press conference Shonasmom!


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## ekblad9

Quote:

_Originally posted by playdoh_
*
















you mean half a brain, yes?*
Now now, this isn't a question of "who in their right mind would vote for Bush" The OP asked if you knew people that will. Attacking character is a


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## Pepper

I know a few.

My problem is that if I find out someone is a Bush supporter I have a hard time wanting to be around them anymore. I keep thinking How in the world can they support him and what he stands for and what he is doing to our country???? How dare they put my children's lives at risk (the draft) for money, oil, greed! How dare they support someone who is destroying our environment! How dare they support someone who lied to us all and is responsible for killing so many innocent children!

I feel it puts a wedge between us and that we are so completely different in what we value in this world that I do not want to engage with them anymore. I would rather be amongst people who care about the same things that I do.

I know that might sound bad but it's the truth.


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## Levi's Mom

My gay FIL and his partner supported Bush last time. WTF! Don't you know he hates you! But he has money and he wanted his tax cut... He has said that he will not vote for Bush in the upcoming election. Perhaps all my dh's raving has made an impact. One person at a time...


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## lula

I know people who support him, there are several types of support:

1. support blindly because they are just Republicans complete with blue blazars and pleated dockers. (ok no offense on the dress code that just is my area!)

2. Support because they have more confidence in him with the military than Kerry (I do not want to debate this rationale, this is just what I hear)

3. support because they hate Kerry

4. support because they dislike both but think Bush is a better (though only slightly better) option

I have no problem with people who support bush except for the blind lemmings. I have a problem with people who vote Democratic blindly as well. I personally am not fond of Bush, I do not approve of how he handled all issues in Iraq, anyone who cuts military benefits/treats them like crap in hospitals etc and then deploys more makes me crazy, his spending is out of whack, Ashcroft (need I say more?) and frankly the whole Dick Cheney pick makes me wonder. I wish he would pick a new VP, then I may have some hope. I however do not agree with Kerry on much if anything. What to do, what to do.......I wish I could vote for Blair, I would at least feel better.


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## IslandMamma

Quote:

_Originally posted by BoobyJuice_
*OH and IslandMamma I want to live where you live! Is there room for everyone?







*










Ah sure...just bring some chocolate (the good stuff) and we'll let you in.


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## NotQuiteJuneCleaver

Yes, far too many. It scares me more every day. I amost never bring the subject up first anymore. But can't just let it slide by if someone else does. But I do feel if after all that has transpired, all the lies that have been told, if a person still supports Bush about all a confrontation is going to do is raise my blood pressure. If they can't see this man for what he is by now, I am not sure they ever will. Stunning, isn't it?


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## QueeTheBean

My BIL does--the only conservative in our large family.

My little boy is interested in the election & we are trying to educate him. Of course, he knows that DH & I do not support Bush. He asked why BIL does, so BIL told us:

1. He gave a big tax cut to help the economy.
2. He got rid of Sadaam
3. He developed the Homeland Security Dept. to make our country safer.

Am just relating what he said.

Oh, by the way, he and my sister cannot complete their wills bc. they are fighting about who would get custody of their DC. BIL doesn't want custody to go to our family! He bsically wants a politcally conservative gaurdian & someone who respects the military (not that we don't, but it certainly isn't a priority for us).

I personally could never marry someone of such different political views from mine. My dad was a republican, my mom a democrat. We often had 2 signs on our lawn. About 15 years ago, he switched & is now more liberal than the rest of the family. Go figure.


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## Mothernature

Quote:

My problem is that if I find out someone is a Bush supporter I have a hard time wanting to be around them anymore. I keep thinking How in the world can they support him and what he stands for and what he is doing to our country???? How dare they put my children's lives at risk (the draft) for money, oil, greed! How dare they support someone who is destroying our environment! How dare they support someone who lied to us all and is responsible for killing so many innocent children!
Unfortunately I feel the same way. I say unfortunately because I live in the Bible belt and the majority of people I know support Bush. My grandparents are working class/lower middle class blind republicans. I don't even think they really understand what it means to be a republican because it isn't really in their best interest. Grandpa is a WWII Vet and military is extremely important to him. Grandma just votes the way Grandpa does. She wouldn't want to cancel out his vote.







:

In the southwest Bush is still strongly supported. The general feel is that they are proud he was macho enough to take on Iraq and would be proud if he took on a few more. They don't care anymore than he does about the environment so, this is a non issue. They are politically intolerant so if you don't agree with Bush you are supposed to find another country in which to live. I always thought that the basis of this country allowed us to disagree with the government without being persecuted. You wouldn't find that sentiment prevalent where I live.


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## NotQuiteJuneCleaver

Mothernature,
I feel your pain. Same in these parts.


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## Mothernature

Thanks FromRoseCottage!


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## Peppermint

Yes- I know myself







:LOL

Seriously, I fall into thinking of him as "better than the alternative", but he's not my top pick--- but if Bush supporters scare you, I won't make you







by telling who my favorite would be









In my family and friends (all pretty intelligent thoughtful people IMO) the split is about 50/50, I guess I am one of the few that believes that intelligent/thoughtful people can be of different political viewpoints







. Call me crazy (well, maybe you shouldn't- that would be a violation of the user agreement







).


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## pilesoflaundry

Mothernature, you should tell your grandpa what bush wants to do with his benefits before he votes for him again. Shrub plays pro-military and all but he wants to screw us over also. A lot of military people like him for some crazy reason. I can't stand him and neither can my dh :LOL


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## jannan

ok so now get it. i am in a liberal meca.


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## jeyer

Just one person here... a close friend of mine. She's intelligent, generous, kind, conscientious ... I just don't get it. :LOL

We have a great friendship, though, so thankfully we can respectfully debate politics. So I've been inundating her lately with info on what Bush is doing to our country. I'm not sure I'll ever convince her, but at least i'm trying!!

I live in a liberal mecca, too, so that's why I don't know more Bush-lovers IRL.


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## Wildcrafter

I am surrounded by Bush supporters. I am also surrounded by homophobic, chauvanistic, close-minded red necks. And there are a-plenty of both in our area.


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## AllyRae

Yup...me, my husband, most of our friends, and most of our family... We feel he is the lesser of two evils....


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## Lucky Charm

Quote:

Yep, me! And a ton of my friends and family. Proud to say it too!










I also know a few people who like Kerry, but they also wish it were Dean, and not Kerry. I do hear alot of that amongst the Dems i am friends with.


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## polka123

Quote:

_Originally posted by AllyRae_
*We feel he is the lesser of two evils....*
we know tons of folks the will vote for Bush insted of Kerry.
if it had been DEAN, the Dem's we know would have voted for Dean.
Me, I think I'll vote PEROT







:LOL


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## Shonahsmom

Can I just ask the Bush supporters here a question?

I am sincere and genuine here. This is not an attempt to be antagonistic:

Did you watch or read the transcript of Bush's press conference last week? If you did, how can you vote for some one who is so dishonest, arrogant, and who presents himself so poorly; someone who has only given three prime time press conferences in three years and someone who showed up for that conference so ill prepared?

I am not being facetious in the least when I say I want a president who can think quickly under pressure, speak proper grammar and isn't totally condescending to reporters when they actually ask legitimate and valid questions.

I want so much more than that out of a president, but I want those things at the very, very least.


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## AmyB

I do know people IRL who support Bush, but the weird thing is that they are universally unable to say what it is they like about him.

As soon as you try to ask real life conservatives why they like Bush they either start name-calling liberals or they say how much they hated Bill Clinton.

It's weird. You'd think that if there was anything good about Bush people who intend to vote for him would be able to explain what it is.

--AmyB


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## cappuccinosmom

Gee, none of the people I know who support Bush are idiots, scared of homosexuals, full of hatred, ********, or dolts.







They are all intelligent, kind-hearted folks. Not all of them are filthy-rich (we are dirt poor) and just want the tax break. Not all of them supported the war. Just because they differ in opinion from you doesn't justify all the name-calling and character impugning.

Hmm...I wonder what would happen if I referred to Kerry as evil and his supporters as dumb???







: After, all, I really, really, really, hate some of the things he's so gung-ho about. Does that make it OK?









Re: Bush himself. I only hear clips of the last press conference. Sounded like he simply didn't want to apologize for 9/11 or the war.







Can't blame him, really, since he did what he felt was the best for the country. I wouldn't apologize for doing something I felt was correct, or if something happened that I felt I had done my best to prevent. That's not a very common thing.








And I don't think he's stupid. Maybe he's not as refined as some would like. As far as I know, the prerequisite for being elected is being born here, nothing else. So having bad grammar doesn't make him constitutionally unfit. :LOL

What can I say, I like the guy.


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## ericaz

i second what shonahsmom said (or is it third already?!)

i'd love to hear just what it is about bush that makes him the lesser of two evils.

i'm no fan of kerry but i'd rather poke my eyes out than vote for bush.

back to the OT:
sure, i know a bunch of people who are into bush and all of them are religious (christian/conservative jews).
i can understand how important it is for them to have someone represent us who is prolife (although how it's anyone's business what other people do with their bodies is beyond me) and proreligion but how in the world can they get past how his admin is completely ruining basic human rights and the environment while simultaneously throwing us into the worst economic state ever (or close to it) and putting us smack into combat with an oil-rich country under false pretenses.

so, again - i'd love to hear from the bush supporters how they can back this man despite what i listed above.

thanks in advance!


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## ericaz

we must've been posting at the same time, cappuccinosmom










so, the tax cut is the main reason you dig him?
and i think i *get* why he didn't want to fess up to any wrong doing during the address. he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

but - what about the iraq? the WMDs that were there? disallowing the inspectors from completing their mission before invading, no overtime for american workers...
of course i could go on and on and on....

please help me to understand how these issues can take a backseat to a tax credit!

and, i apologize to the original poster for going OT.


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## Eggie

Well, my husband stills support Bush... me, I cannot vote so I don't count.


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## Nurturing Mama

I'm still undecided about my vote, but wanted to respond to this...

Quote:

It's weird. You'd think that if there was anything good about Bush people who intend to vote for him would be able to explain what it is.
I think the same is true for Kerry supporters. The ones I've talked to talk about everything horrible about Bush and nothing good about Kerry. The divisiveness (is that a word?) of our country makes it very, very difficult to make an informed decision because of the vitriol on both sides.


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## milk4two

Most of the people I know IRL support Bush.


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## PurpleBasil

Nursing Mother, you often tell people to do a search on past Activism topics but well, honestly, _a lot_ of events have occured and information released since those discussions. No offense to the good times had by all in the past, but many in the US who were Bush supporters back when you were having these 'civil discussions' are now not voting for him, for the simple fact that was then, this is now.

A LOT has changed and people have had to re evaluate their political leanings in light of new information and actions by the Bush administration.

I guess it sticks in my craw to read 'go do a search' (because you won't say it in real time). It is patronizing in a way.

As for me, I know my neighbor is a Bush vote. Well, if she isn't disenfranchised first. That happens in elections you know.


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## Shonahsmom

Quote:

_Originally posted by cappuccinosmom_
*
And I don't think he's stupid. Maybe he's not as refined as some would like. As far as I know, the prerequisite for being elected is being born here, nothing else. So having bad grammar doesn't make him constitutionally unfit. :LOL

*
If he was a tremendous leader who just simply communicated very poorly, I could deal with it. I did not say he was stupid. What I am saying is, I have a huge problem having a leader who appears to have so little grasp of what is going on that he completely flounders every time he is unscripted. And can we really honestly say constant bad grammar is not at least a little bit correlated with intelligence? I do want my president to be above average intelligence. Shouldn't a president be above average intelligence? Just because its not listed in the minimum requirements for presidency, doesn't it make sense to want it??

Doesn't any Bush supporter here feel at least mildly uncomfortable with a president who appears in public almost never except to campaign? He's the president and he has given three prime time press conferences in three years? Why do you think that is? It doesn't make you question him at least a little?

And personally, I think it's despicable that he refuses to apologize. I think it has been made crystal clear that our government made mistakes. Whether you believe they were big mistakes or little mistakes, intentional or unintentional, out of carelessness or honest mistakes... there were mistakes nonetheless. And he was practically begged to apologize numerous times and refused. I think that is so disrespectful to the families of the victims of 9/11 as well as to us all.

Here is the official transcript of the press conference. It doesn't include the long pauses and the smirks, but the grammatical errors remain (as well as his condescending, rambling, confusing Orwellian double speak).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...040413-20.html


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## cappuccinosmom

>so, the tax cut is the main reason you dig him?

No, my point was the opposite. We are not rich and don't stand to gain or lose money no matter who's elected. We're just poor. We're gonna be poor. We don't worry about it.









We like him because...
He is conservative, and wishes to uphold conservative values in the nation.
We don't believe war is a good thing ever (dh had first hand experience when he was young, and he knows and appreciates the horror of it), but we do think it is necessary sometimes. I think taking out Saddam was a good thing, personally. He was evil. I'm not sure Bush went about it in the best way, but, hindsight is 20/20, as always.

Personally, I don't think that *anything* he does could ever make him Ok to those who oppose his values and the direction he wants to take the nation. Seems to me the poor guy can do no right in the eyes of liberals. If he'd done nothing after 9/11, he'd be reviled. If he did it differently, he'd be reviled. If he did everything the same, but had good grammer and a nice outward veneer, he'd be reviled..... Because he is against homosexual marriage, against abortion, doesn't belong to PETA, and comes from a family some money. :LOL

Which is why we have elections.

So, go vote.


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## Shonahsmom

Quote:

He is conservative, and wishes to uphold conservative values in the nation.
But that's the thing- he doesn't uphold traditional conservative values.

In the words of John McCain a few months ago "Conservatives always accuse democrats of a tax and spend, tax and spend mentality. President Bush's mentaility is cut all taxes and spend like a drunken sailor".

You are right. We do have elections. I just wish people would make a much larger effort to be informed about the things President Bush is responsible for, instead of defending him just because they are historically conservative politically. I do not identify myself with any political party; my dislike of Bush has NOTHING to do with partisanship. It has to do with the man and what he has shown us over the last 3 years.


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## MamaMonica

I know one person IRL who supports Bush, but we aren't close. I am stressed out about this war and have memories of the endless years of Viet Nam and feel it's happening all over again.

Our clean air will be destroyed by weakened Clean Air Act. I'm afraid of our nations children being drafted for this war and coming home in body bags.

I will never support Bush. I can't bear to see the things I hold precious (our children's future, our solvency as a nation (deficit is increasing), our clean air and water being destroyed.


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## Peppermint

NM thank you for saying it all so well.









I thought about answering the question about "Why would you support Bush?" but noticed what I felt was a no-win situation, whatever I would say about why I support Bush would be picked apart. I am glad to be able to see that good, honest, intelligent, caring people can come down on different sides politically and still think highly of many of the women here who disagree with me. My best friend (other then dh







) is a hard-core liberal, and luckily- he also is aware that good, honest, intelligent, caring people can be of different political viewpoints, I appreciate people who can see that so much







.


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## sleeping queen

NM thanks for echoing my thoughts


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## candiland

My very racist neighbor loves Bush and his Muslim-ass-kicking abilities.

My racist extended family loves him, as well. Right after their "N" jokes they all talk about how great Bush is.


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## Nurturing Mama

What does racism have to do with supporting Bush?


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## MamaMonica

It is not our job to take over countries. In six months they would have been able to document there were no weapons of mass destruction. Instead of waiting, we barged in to get those weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist. And the oil prices did not go down, which is what many people wanted from this invasion.

I listened to a local (awadr-winning) radio host who was over there interviewing people involved in reconstruction. The local people are saying that the Americans aren't listening and understanding the culture, but staying isolated and imposing a western mindset that isn't working. Those who feel called can over there and rebuild, but I don't support this war or going over there in any form.


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## merpk

Quote:

_*... by ericaz*
... sure, i know a bunch of people who are into bush and all of them are religious (christian/conservative jews).
i can understand how important it is for them to have someone represent us who is prolife (although how it's anyone's business what other people do with their bodies is beyond me) and proreligion ..._
Am assuming you were particular about that "small C" *c*onservative Jews. Most *C*onservative Jews I know (and I know many) are strongly anti-Bush.

Most Orthodox Jews I know (& I know lots of those, too) are also strongly anti-Bush, but there are more exceptions in that group.

And BTW, the "pro-life" agenda is not one you can associate with Jews or Judaism, be they Orthodox or not. There may be some who agree with it, but it's not quite in accord with Jewish law/belief.


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## stacey31

NOTE TO SELF:...........stop reading these kinds od threads........


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## ericaz

hi amy,
let me clarify









i meant politcally conservative jews.

as for being pro life - many religious people i know (both christians and jews) oppose abortion rights. didn't mean to make a sweeping generalization about ALL religious people - just most of the ones i know.

thanks to all the bush supporters who wrote to help me understand what positive attributes they see in the president and the job he's done thus far.
while most of what was said is the complete opposite of what i believe to be true - it's always interesting to see other points of view.


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## candiland

Quote:

What does racism have to do with supporting Bush?
I was just stating that the ONLY people I know IRL - personally, as in, speak to them regularly - are racist. That's all. I'm not saying you cybermommies who support Bush are. I'm just talking about people that I know, personally. It scares me.


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## Viola

Yes, I have crunchy friends in my playgroup that support Bush. We just don't talk about politics much as there are widely differing views in the group.

My brother is a Bush supporter from what I can tell, and lots of my neighbors are as well.

My 78 year old mother who used to be a dyed in the wool Republican lost all her wool or something. She truly dislikes George W. Bush, believes he is immoral and will not vote for him. It is interesting how she has changed after so long.


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## A&A

Yep, my parents. Don't look at me--I didn't raise 'em!


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## jengi33

Nursing Mother, I applaud you for writing your feelings in this forum so well, without fear of being in the minority! I usually just lurk, because I just get mad about this kind of stuff. Thank you!


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## phathui5

4. support because they dislike both but think Bush is a better (though only slightly better) option

This is me and dh.


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## Ms.Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7*
Yep, me! And a TON of my friends and family. Proud to say it too!









DITTO!!


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## Ms.Doula

And yes, thanks NM- You always echo my thoughts on things... er rather I am echoing YOUR thoughts on issues...









You are awesome! I LOVE YA!


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## Ms.Doula

I know LOTTS of IRL Bush supporters..... All the people I know are conserv. As is my family... as far as I know anyway









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
Doesn't any Bush supporter here feel at least mildly uncomfortable with a president who appears in public almost never except to campaign? He's the president and he has given three prime time press conferences in three years? Why do you think that is? It doesn't make you question him at least a little?


You asked why I thought this is...... Ummm it tells me He is BUSY doing his JOB!!! And doesnt want to TALK all the crap while he sits on his Ar$e all the time..... It says he is not trying to brainwash/sweettalk/appeal to everyone why he is a good guy/good choice. He isnt trying to Please everyone.... thats one thing I DO like. I cant stand the guys like Kerry that just sit the fence & can't PICK A SIDE on an issue.... the flipp-flopping just to please everone is sickening..


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## Shonahsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
You asked why I thought this is...... Ummm it tells me He is BUSY doing his JOB!!!

Interesting... considering he has taken more vacation time than ANY president in history......

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
It says he is not trying to brainwash/sweettalk/appeal to everyone why he is a good guy/good choice.

Uhmm.. should I post how many times he used "Sadam" and "9/11" in the same sentence in the months leading up to the war?


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## Ms.Doula

Hmmmmm. Seriously, You'de need time off to recoup/regroup/relax too if you had the weight on your shoulders he does!







I think it's completely justified concidering what he's had to deal with...

Quote:

_Uhmm.. should I post how many times he used "Sadam" and "9/11" in the same sentence in the months leading up to the war?_
What does that have to do with anything??







That's what was going on at the time.... thats what the people were concerned with. Twas the most pressing of issues. kwim?


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## RowansDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
I cant stand the guys like Kerry that just sit the fence & can't PICK A SIDE on an issue.... the flipp-flopping just to please everone is sickening..









How folks can utter the above with a straight face is kinda spooky. Has a Stepford Folk vibe to it:

Bush opposed the McCain-Feingold bill in the 2000 GOP primary, tried to kill it in Congress, and then signed it when it passed:
http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry022102.shtml

Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

Bush is against extending the time for the 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

Bush won't let Condi Rice testify under oath in front of the 9/11 commission on "principle", which evaporates when politcal heat turns up.

Bush wants to limit his and Cheney private testimony before the 9/11 commission to one hour; then he's OK with no time limit.

Bush is against initating an outside investigation of the Iraq/WMD intelligence disaster; then he's for it.

Bush is against nation building; then he's for it (see Iraq).

Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State; then he OK's Sharon's unilateral disengagement in Gaza and blesses keeping West Bank territory.

Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...bush.marriage/

Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't: http://www.hillnews.com/news/032603/funds.aspx

Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he tries to cut benefits: http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...59-1989240.php

Bush - "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush - "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.

Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote.

Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

Bush says he's in favor of adding carbon dioxide as a regulated greenhouse gas. Then Bush said it would not be included.

Bush was against amnesty for illegal aliens. Now he's for it.

Bush was against Presidents doing an end run around Congress to pack the courts. Then he did it.

Bush said the war would cost $3 billion. Then he asked for 87 billion.

Bush - We need to go to war with Iraq because their WMDs pose a direct threat to the United States. Bush - We needed to go to war with Iraq to free the Iraqi people!

Bush - We have found WMDs: http://www.whitehouse.gov/g8/interview5.html
Bush - Er, never mind: http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=28200

Bush implemented No Child Left Behind, then underfunded it and has now frosted Republican governors: http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...ild-usat_x.htm


----------



## Aura_Kitten

everyone i know (locally, at least) IRL, with the exception being my SO, supports bush.

oh wait, my MIL doesn't (i thought she did).


----------



## Shonahsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*

What does that have to do with anything??







That's what was going on at the time.... thats what the people were concerned with. Twas the most pressing of issues. kwim?

You mentioned brainwashing in relation to Kerry. I mentioned how many times Bush said "sadam" and "9/11" in the same sentence leading up to the war. During that time in a Gallup poll over 80% of Americans polled believed that Sadam was responsible for or participated in 9/11... which was not true. 9/11 and Sadam were SEPERATELY pressing issues and did not belong in the same sentence, paragraph or speach. It was one of many deceitful tactics used to play on America's fears and emotions to gain support for a war waged under false pretenses.


----------



## Ilaria

Not too many. I teach at a university and I have yet to meet a colleague who supports Dubya. I did see one of my students wearing an NRA belt, so I assume he's a supporter.

Quote:

Bush has turned my dad into a latent raving liberal!!!! Yeahhhh!!!!
He did the same to my husband! Also, my ILs, life long Reps, think he's the biggest idiot ever!









We are now a family of tree-hugging, peace-loving Catholics in perfect agreement that Bush is evil.


----------



## Ms.Doula

WRONG ANSWER! - Who do you think supported AQ?!?!?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
You mentioned brainwashing in relation to Kerry. I mentioned how many times Bush said "sadam" and "9/11" in the same sentence leading up to the war. During that time in a Gallup poll over 80% of Americans polled believed that Sadam was responsible for or participated in 9/11... which was not true. 9/11 and Sadam were SEPERATELY pressing issues and did not belong in the same sentence, paragraph or speach. It was one of many deceitful tactics used to play on America's fears and emotions to gain support for a war waged under false pretenses.


----------



## Ms.Doula

And for what its worth... I DIDNT mention ANYTHING about brainwashing...


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## RowansDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
WRONG ANSWER! - Who do you think supported AQ?!?!?

Wow, someone certainly appears to have glugged the Kool-Aid:
*Bush: No Iraq link to 9/11 found*
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...ushiraq18.html

"President Bush, having repeatedly linked Saddam Hussein to the terrorist organization behind the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said yesterday there is no evidence that the deposed Iraqi leader had a hand in those attacks, in contrast to the belief of most Americans."

*Powell admits no smoking- gun proof*
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?from=storyrhs

"Despite his assertions to the United Nations last year, the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, says he had no conclusive proof of a link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda."

But, hey, it is understandable though...
http://www.moveon.org/misleader/3lies-ad.pdf


----------



## Shonahsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
And for what its worth... I DIDNT mention ANYTHING about brainwashing...

Yeah ya did:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
You asked why I thought this is...... Ummm it tells me He is BUSY doing his JOB!!! And doesnt want to TALK all the crap while he sits on his Ar$e all the time..... It says he is not trying to brainwash/sweettalk/appeal to everyone why he is a good guy/good choice. He isnt trying to Please everyone.... thats one thing I DO like. I cant stand the guys like Kerry that just sit the fence & can't PICK A SIDE on an issue.... the flipp-flopping just to please everone is sickening..


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## Marg of Arabia

RowansDad,

Excellent posts! Thanks for saving me the breath or should I say keyboard punching....


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## Verity

I don't know anyone personally, but I am surrounded by pro-Bush and pro-Repbulican bumper stickers.

Would love to move to northern CA!!!!


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## Verity

Wildcrafter, we must be neighbors. So many closed-minded ******* people around here as well.

One reason I get along swimmingly with my ILS is that they can't stand Bush, either. They put the lie to the idea that everyone gets more conservative as they get older.


----------



## Ms.Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Verity*
Wildcrafter, we must be neighbors. So many closed-minded ******* people around here as well.


OKAY, So what.. Having a Bush bumper sticker makes someone a "Close-minded *******!!??

Can't you add your answer and oppinion without belitteling others? Sure does give liberals a bad name....


----------



## WithHannahsHeart

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
Yeah. Me.







Dh. My folks. Both entire churches that we regularly attend....

That's not to say that we all agree with everything that he's doing/done. But we just feel he's a lesser evil than Kerry.









Yeah, all that. Big fat ditto.


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:

Both entire churches that we regularly attend
Both ENTIRE churches? Did you guys conduct a poll?


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## MamaMonica

Entire churches thinking the same? That's scary. You'd think people would still be individuals and have their own opinions!


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## Bearsmama

Yes. My FIL. UGH...


----------



## Els' 3 Ones

Yes, I do. Far too many. Very depressing how many are chugging the Kool-Aid.

My cousin's dd and her dh said they supported the war bcuz "those guys should'nt be able to get away with flying planes into our bldgs"














OMG!! I brought them up to the computer and set them straight.







They truly believed that Iraqis flew into the towers..................

We're in deep doo-doo......................


----------



## Ms.Doula

Well, monnie & Ilara- I haven't taken a POLL at our church, but I can honestly say most, (if not all) of our HUGE church supports Bush as well. *MOST* christian churches do. NOT because hes a Republican (though most christians tend to be Rep.) But due to the whole moral stance on things, mainly the gay-marriage & respect human life issues that Rep are more conserv. with.


----------



## Jennifer Z

My dh's dad and family are charismatic christians living in Texas. uhg! I asked his sister why she liked the shrub boy (I didn't call him that) because I just couldn't understand it, and she said "I dunno...I just like him". She didn't know a single thing about any of his policies. I don't get that. I can respect people with differing views, but put some thought into it!

I know waaaayyyy too many people who are shrub supporters....not my friends, but the general population. There is almost no point to vote here (I do anyway) because it is so overwhelmingly Republican.


----------



## Ilaria

That is a gross generalization based on your personal guesses. The latest issue of US News & World has a report on US evangelicals and the statistics might surprise you.

Quote:

respect human life issues
Really? So, frying hundreds of people on a chair and bombing a few thousand in the Middle East is how republicans show that respect? A novel idea.

Please. Republicans do not have the exclusive on morality especially in relation to Christian values. In fact, it's hard to find their individualistic beliefs to jibe with the teachings of Jesus.

FWIW, I don't know who people in my church support. I hope it's not so homogeneous. I'd hate to be surrounded by a bunch of sheep.


----------



## Ms.Doula

Quote:

Really? So, frying hundreds of people on a chair and bombing a few thousand in the Middle East is how republicans show that respect? A novel idea.Please. Republicans do not have the exclusive on morality especially in relation to Christian values. In fact, it's hard to find their individualistic beliefs to jibe with the teachings of Jesus.
Please, yourself. Don't twist things. Your obviously reaching because you disagree with something I said. FYI- I AM a christian. (Menonite Bretherine to be exact) and my beliefs do "jibe" with Jesus' examples & God (YHWH)'s teachings.









Talk about generalizing people..... Sheep huh? Just because *Most* christians tend to be more on the cons. side of things.... they have to be Sheep? I think not. Its more about standing up for what is right & wrong in the world, compared to Gods word. About Moral & Imoralality. Its not so complicated really.


----------



## Ilaria

First of all, the word is *"jibe"*

Quote:

jibe2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jb)
intr.v. Informal jibed, jib·ing, jibes
*To be in accord; agree*: Your figures jibe with mine.
*"Jive"* means something entirely different

Quote:

jive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jv)
n. Jazz or swing music.
The jargon of jazz musicians and enthusiasts.
Slang. Deceptive, nonsensical, or glib talk: "the sexist, locker-room jive of men boasting and bonding" (Trip Gabriel).
v. jived, jiv·ing, jives v. intr. *To play or dance to jive music.*
Slang. To talk nonsense; kid. To talk or chat

Dictionary aside- What did I twist? And what am I reaching? I am expressing my opinions.
FYI, I am a Christian as well, Roman Catholic to be exact.

Quote:

my beliefs do "jive" with Jesus' examples & God (YHWH)'s teachings.
Great, you don't have to tell me what your beliefs are. I said that IMO, Jesus' teachings are very different from Republicans' beliefs.

Quote:

*Most* christians tend to be more on the cons. side of things
This is your opinion, YOUR personal guess. Do you have anything in support of that? Any statistics as to how Christians vote and what they are registered as? Again, if you read the article I mentioned earlier you'd be surprised.

I will say it again, attacking a country and killing thousands of people (babies too!) and supporting the death penalty, just 2 examples, are strange ways to show respect for _human life issues._


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## Verity

No, Ms. Doula, I didn't mean that having a Bush bumper sticker makes one a closed-minded *******.


----------



## Ms.Doula

Thanks for the lesson in language arts.







:

It was a simple typo that is now fixed.

You are *Now* stating you said "In My Oppinion", Wich you DID NOT say. In fact, heres a quote:

Quote:

Republicans do not have the exclusive on morality especially in relation to Christian values. *In fact,* it's hard to find their individualistic beliefs to jibe with the teachings of Jesus.
(emph. by me)

THAT was a very generalized comment!

My Origional response to the (sarcastic?) question you & monnie both asked in part:

Quote:

.......*Most* christians tend to be more on the conservative side of things.
Your reply:

Quote:

This is your opinion, YOUR personal guess. Do you have anything in support of that? Any statistics as to how Christians vote and what they are registered as?
Well it is Not a guess of any sort. It is what **I** Know. In support of that..... Hmmmmm. Well, ALL the churches I have ever gone to (I became a christian in 1990) Have (and I quote) *MOST* republicans. And I think it is certainly due to the fact that *MOST* have more conservative views on things. (as the bible does)

Hope that clarifies for you.


----------



## Ilaria

You're welcome for the lesson, it's what I do for a living.







(But really, you are the one who put "jive" in quotation marks as if to correct me.)

I guess I am too scientific, but your *MOST* without numbers or hard facts does nothing to convince me that your statement is nothing more than an opinion, so I will take it as that.









And the statement that the Bible has a 'conservative view on things' is, once again, your *opinion*, not a fact. Others see it differently:
http://elroy.net/ehr/fighttheright.html#liberals
http://elroy.net/politics/liberal.html


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## Bearsmama

Rowansdad-Just wanted to thank you for the great list of Bush flip-flops. Great links, too.


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## Bearsmama

Anyone watch the Frontline special last night on PBS, The Jesus Factor? Very, very interesting and compelling to, I think, Bush retractors and supporters.


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## AnnMarie

I can't believe it, but almost everyone I've talked to about Bush IRL likes him. These people are







!


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
Well, monnie & Ilara- I haven't taken a POLL at our church, but I can honestly say most, (if not all) of our HUGE church supports Bush as well. *MOST* christian churches do. NOT because hes a Republican (though most christians tend to be Rep.) But due to the whole moral stance on things, mainly the gay-marriage & respect human life issues that Rep are more conserv. with.

This is something I just don't understand. Besides abortion and gay unions, the conservative Republican agenda, and Bush's policies in particular, are so at odds with Christ's teaching that it sometimes floors me. Bush talks the talk, but he sure doesn't walk the walk, in his personal life (Harken Energy, anyone?) OR in his political policies. In every aspect, he consistently favors the wealthy over the poor. How is that Christian? Someone, please tell me!

I think more Christians are starting to get wise to it. There's a new organization called the Clergy Leadership Network, and their mission is to get Bush out of office.

Here's a few examples of issues where I believe the Democratic agenda more closely follows Christian theology:

1. Health care for everyone
2. Providing for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned
3. Having a tax system that allows us to adequately provide for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned (Did you know the gap between rich and poor is now as large as it was during the Gilded Age!)
4. Protecting the environment
5. Anti-death penalty
6. Restriction of killing machines (aka assault rifles)
7. Regulations that protect workers from the greed of big business
8. War as a last resort

I'd be curious to hear on which issues (besides abortion and gay unions) you conservative mamas think Republicans take the more Christian stance.


----------



## Maeve

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, but I think the only people we know that support him are some of dh's family. They are convinced he will out-law abortion. But I don't think even they like him.


----------



## plum

my dad does. my dh's grandparents, too.

i would say they are very closedminded.


----------



## menudo

A friend called going on about how she likes Bush. I did not want to discuss it. She feels even though he is a jerk he does what he says. I disagree. She drives me nuts when she does this...actually, she forwards crap so can some people please forward me some stuff showing that GWB does not keep his word and why he sucks?

I know many other who support him, like my Dad. I say cause the Catholic church says to vote for him cause he is anti abortion. I think we shouldn't vote on one issue.


----------



## sleeping queen

Jeyer, I would like to address your post. I John 2:3-6 says we are to obey God if we know God. I Thess. 5:22 says we are to flee evil. 3 John 1:11 we are to imitate good not evil. We are also to take care of the widows and orphans; I Timothy 5:16 and James 1:27. No where are we told to give over this responsibility to the government. I cannot support nationalized health care because I'm sure that it would cover abortions. Genesis 1:28 gives man dominion over the animals. I would assume that we are to respect God's creation, but enviromentalist border on worshiping the earth and that is wrong. Numbers 35:16 says that we are to put murders to death.

I believe we are to be generous and give to those in need, but by doing it through tax dollars we are forced to support people and ideals which are clearly agianst the Bible's teaching.


----------



## Ilaria

Thank you Jeyer. I couldn't agree more!!


----------



## Shonahsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Jeyer, I would like to address your post. I John 2:3-6 says we are to obey God if we know God. I Thess. 5:22 says we are to flee evil. 3 John 1:11 we are to imitate good not evil. We are also to take care of the widows and orphans; I Timothy 5:16 and James 1:27. No where are we told to give over this responsibility to the government. I cannot support nationalized health care because I'm sure that it would cover abortions. Genesis 1:28 gives man dominion over the animals. I would assume that we are to respect God's creation, but enviromentalist border on worshiping the earth and that is wrong. Numbers 35:16 says that we are to put murders to death.

I believe we are to be generous and give to those in need, but by doing it through tax dollars we are forced to support people and ideals which are clearly agianst the Bible's teaching.
















:














:







:





















: :ignore :ignore





















:




























:














:ignore


----------



## Jennifer Z

T

Shonahsmom-
Just ignore SQ. She thrives on ticking people off and seems to repeatedly post things just to inflame people. I have yet to see a single pro-AP or natural living post since she has started posting, so don't let her bother you.


----------



## Ms.Doula

And just WHAT is wrong with what SQ posted!!?? It was WELL thought out, and well researched! I think she did a good job answering the question, wich was:

Quote:

This is something I just don't understand. Besides abortion and gay unions, the conservative Republican agenda, and Bush's policies in particular, are so at odds with Christ's teaching that it sometimes floors me. Bush talks the talk, but he sure doesn't walk the walk, in his personal life (Harken Energy, anyone?) OR in his political policies. In every aspect, he consistently favors the wealthy over the poor. How is that Christian? Someone, please tell me!

Here's a few examples of issues where I believe the Democratic agenda more closely follows Christian theology:

1. Health care for everyone
2. Providing for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned
3. Having a tax system that allows us to adequately provide for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned (Did you know the gap between rich and poor is now as large as it was during the Gilded Age!)
4. Protecting the environment
5. Anti-death penalty
6. Restriction of killing machines (aka assault rifles)
7. Regulations that protect workers from the greed of big business
8. War as a last resort

I'd be curious to hear on which issues (besides abortion and gay unions) you conservative mamas think Republicans take the more Christian stance.
I agree w/ this point as well:

Quote:

"I believe we are to be generous and give to those in need, but by doing it through tax dollars we are forced to support people and ideals which are clearly agianst the Bible's teaching."


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>1. Health care for everyone
2. Providing for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned
3. Having a tax system that allows us to adequately provide for the poor, disabled, elderly and abandoned (Did you know the gap between rich and poor is now as large as it was during the Gilded Age!)

We support Bush. And our belief, as well as those we know who also support him is that the above things should be done *by the Church*. The church is the body of Christ, not the government. And, as well as taxes forcing us to support what we may not agree with (as already mentioned), they make it more difficult to do these very things individually.

>4. Protecting the environment

'Can't comment on this one--as I haven't studied Bush or Kerry's position.

>5. Anti-death penalty

I used to be anti-death penalty. Now I'm on the fence. But I know that *many* Christians are not at all against having a penalty of death for the most heinous crimes. Regardless, that is one of the functions of government (Romans: government does not bear the sword in vain, he who does right needs not fear that sword, etc.)

Can't comment on the others either--no time!


----------



## Ilaria

Jesus embraced everyone and helped everyone, EVEN IF they went 'against the Bible's teaching'. I seem to remember from somewhere it is not up to us to judge, that is God's job. Obviously, that's not a Christian value many Republicans like to embrace.

Quote:

In John 8:4 Jesus was brought a woman caught in adultery. Rather than condemn her, he forgave her and said the only people allowed to condemn her were the ones who had never sinned. No one condemned her that day. In John 4:7 Jesus encounters a prostitute at a watering well. Rather than judge her harshly for her sins, he asked her for a cup of water and gave her comfort for the mistakes in her life.
And...

Quote:

The Bible doesn't support multi-national capitalist companies. Rather it says greed is a sin (1 Corinthians 6:10). The Bible doesn't support the notion that we all deserve to have big cars, big houses, and even bigger churches in which to worship. In fact, gluttony is a sin (Proverbs 28:7). The Bible doesn't even say we should oppose taxes. Christ told his followers to pay them (Mark 12:17).

In Acts 2:44-45 we read "*All who believed were together and had all things in common;* and And, in a part of the Bible that most donation-driven Fundamentalists seem to ignore, in the very first Christian church, conservative Capitalism was not the rule of the day. The first church was pure Communism. they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need." Sounds a lot like Karl Marx's famous statement about Communism when he wrote that it would take *"from each according to his ability to each according to his need."* In the beginning, the Christian Church stood for equality and the redistribution of wealth,
Elroy


----------



## MamaMonica

So many people are voting for Bush and not even bothering to read about what he has done to the environment. Let's face it, if you destroy the environment, there aren't going to be any other issues to talk about.


----------



## Ilaria

Many people just don't care, I guess.


----------



## sleeping queen

Ilaria, Jesus told the adultress to go and sin no more. He never condoned sin. He taught repentance along with forgiveness.

Acts 2:42-47 The beleiver were taking care of other believers if you read the whole passage.

2 Thess. 3:10-12 ; For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat.: We hear that some among you are idle . They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.

I think the Bible encourages us to work for what we have. Laziness isn't rewarded. (I'm not talking about widows and orphans, but able bodied people)


----------



## Levi's Mom

SQ,
Just curious, so you are against welfare and perhaps WIC. Do you think God would have wanted children to be raised w/o their mother? Their mother forced to work more than 1 job, just to make ends meet (and certainly not enough to start a college fund or pay for dental visits.) Is that how your God operates? Everyone for himself?

If the answer is yes, than you can keep him.

I guess that's why I've turned my back on Catholicism, too many meanies.


----------



## sleeping queen

I'm never agianst helping moms with children. Ultimately, I would like to see programs that help people get on their feet or help people when unfortunate circumstances happen. As a christian, I don't think we should just stand back and not do what we should to help the needy. To many times we assume the government is taking care of these issues and neglect to help as the Bible dictates. Here is one of my beefs. We sponser a child through an organizations who see that she gets food and necessary medical care. If everyone who had a few extra dollars would just help one child in this way , we could accomplish a lot while the politicians are







. I'm not going to wait around for them.


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:

Is that how your God operates? Everyone for himself?
If the answer is yes, than you can keep him.
I guess that's why I've turned my back on Catholicism, too many meanies.
I could have wriiten that! Except, I haven't turned my back on Catholicism. I KNOW my religion and my Jesus is not like that.


----------



## Ms.Doula

SQ, I TOTALLY see your point! (ok, actually God's point)
Aparently some are missing it though......
it's unfortunate.









I know Im doing my part....... I give & donate my time, my heart & my finances wherever I can..... The CPC for starters.... our church, and our community.

not to mention what the government takes from us...


----------



## jeyer

Quote:

_cappuccinosmom_
We support Bush. And our belief, as well as those we know who also support him is that the above things should be done *by the Church*. The church is the body of Christ, not the government. And, as well as taxes forcing us to support what we may not agree with (as already mentioned), they make it more difficult to do these very things individually.
I have heard this argument before, and it always astounds me. How on earth do you think churches could cover the enormous need of the impoverished in this country? Even with our current welfare system, there are 43 million Americans without health care right now. If "the church" is so prepared to help, why don't they start getting health insurance for some of those people?

The answer, of course, is that it's absolutely, positively impossible for churches and charitable organizations to raise that kind of money.

Where do you get the idea that this is even feasible? Does your pastor/priest preach this? I would really like to know it would work. Please give me more details. Who would manage/oversee it? How would we assure that people get what they need?

And, are you aware that in bad economic times -- when people need help the most -- charitable contributions drop significantly? If you or your husband were to lose your job, would you want your family's very existence to be subject to the whims of people who donate to charity? Or would you prefer that some base level of sustinance be assured by the government?

As for George Bush, his tax cuts and other economic policies are further reducing the states' ability to provide for the poor. People are continuing to be cut off from Medicaid. They're losing their unemployment benefits. And what is he doing about it? Not a da*n thing. But he is pushing to make elimination of the estate tax permanent, so that the average multi-millionaire can collect their full $16 million instead of a measly $10 million!

Ilaria posted the passage from the book of Acts, which clearly states that the early Christian Church stood for equality and the redistribution of wealth.

You want to hear something really ironic? When George W. Bush did his now-famous Bible study, one of the two books he studies was the book of ... Acts!! From his own statement of faith: "We studied Acts, the story of the Apostles building the Christian Church, and next year, the Gospel of Luke." :LOL God, I love irony!

As for the death penalty, I think people who are for it should have to sign up to be the one to personally administer it, at least once in their lives. Don't leave the dirty work to someone else. Watch as you take someone's life away, and wonder, just wonder, if that murderer may have come to Christ years down the road if he'd been allowed to live.


----------



## jeyer

One more thought for Sleeping Queen and Cappucinomom... do you really like the idea of all social welfare in this country being completely born by people who support churches and charities, like you and me?

At least with government control, we can assure that everyone pays (well, except the tax evaders), thereby keeping the costs down on the rest of us.


----------



## Shonahsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*







T

Shonahsmom-
Just ignore SQ. She thrives on ticking people off and seems to repeatedly post things just to inflame people. I have yet to see a single pro-AP or natural living post since she has started posting, so don't let her bother you.

Thanks! I think I will take your advice!


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:

Ilaria posted the passage from the book of Acts, which clearly states that the early Christian Church stood for equality and the redistribution of wealth.
Oh but that part of the Bible we can totally dismiss, you know, we're missing the point, God's point.







:

The know-it-all self-righteousness is definitely a something Jesus appreciated: "whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness." (Matthew 23:27)


----------



## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*







T

Shonahsmom-
Just ignore SQ. She thrives on ticking people off and seems to repeatedly post things just to inflame people. I have yet to see a single pro-AP or natural living post since she has started posting, so don't let her bother you.

This looked like a personal attack to me, but I must be wrong, b/c it hasn't been removed.

As far as the death penalty goes (I am against it for the record), I find the thought that anyone who is for it should actually have to be the executioner just once to be interesting (I have said it before myself), would the same go for abortion? Anyone who is for it should have to perform or have one just once---I mean, both the death penalty and abortion are at the very least the ending of a human life, that we humans have taken on the right to do.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jess7396*
As far as the death penalty goes (I am against it for the record), I find the thought that anyone who is for it should actually have to be the executioner just once to be interesting (I have said it before myself), would the same go for abortion? Anyone who is for it should have to perform or have one just once---I mean, both the death penalty and abortion are at the very least the ending of a human life, that we humans have taken on the right to do.









Not in my mind. I think the two are very, very different. With the death penalty, there is a very public element to the whole trial process... the death penalty is pursued by the publicly-appointed prosecutor, and either the publicly-appointed judge or the jury makes the sentencing decision. And it's all done on behalf of us -- in our name.

When a woman decides to have an abortion, it's a personal decision. We aren't telling her to do it.


----------



## Ms.Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
And, are you aware that in bad economic times -- when people need help the most -- charitable contributions drop significantly? If you or your husband were to lose your job, would you want your family's very existence to be subject to the whims of people who donate to charity? Or would you prefer that some base level of sustinance be assured by the government?

Good points, jeyer. But I know that the church would provide for us. (As would my Lord) But the key (for ME at least) is this: _"Some BASE level of sustinance"_ IE No "career welfare" or able-bodied people living free of the government. I'm all for a mother to be able to take care of their children, and for taking care of the elderly & widowed & disabled. But the "base level of sustinance" in place now, is a bit over the top, IMO.

And I don't want to pay for someone else's health care. Sorry. Call me selfish, but WE can't afford OUR OWN health care (thus we have None) Why would I want our income supporting just anyones (not including the previous exeptions) Health coverage that may include things I DONT aprove of anyway. (abortions to name one) If its our money being used, We should have a say. And what about us?? The ones EARNING it??


----------



## Ms.Doula

jess, I see your point, and I agree. They are one in the same, given the fact that they are both a life. But one is an innocent person, one a guilty one. (that, again... we'd have to support)


----------



## Ms.Doula

ONE more thing......... I







LOVED







George W. Bush's Statement Of Faith! It was a wonderfull testimony!! And I can't see why someone would try to use it _against_ him. Just because he did a bible studiy on the book of acts in 1985, this means he's a hipocrit for not interprating/remembering something you felt was key in running America's wealth/health issues???







I think not.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
And I don't want to pay for someone else's health care. Sorry. Call me selfish, but WE can't afford OUR OWN health care (thus we have None) Why would I want our income supporting just anyones (not including the previous exeptions) Health coverage that may include things I DONT aprove of anyway. (abortions to name one) If its our money being used, We should have a say. And what about us?? The ones EARNING it??

This is exactly my point. So, you are one of the 45 million uninsured? I'm sorry to hear that. I'm certainly not proposing that you would pay for others' health insurance but not get any yourself. That would be ridiculous! If we had universal health care, your family would get it along with the rest.

On the other points: If Bush is going to make a "statement of faith" like that, then he'd better be prepared to live up to it. He hasn't. Once again, I implore you to do more reading about your beloved Bush, and see the evidence that he is a crooked, lying phony. Start with the tale of how he made his wealth at Harken Energy, and then let me know if you think that's how a Christian should behave. http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/bush_harken.html (this is a collection of stories on the topic from respected newspapers)

And, yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to call it ironic that he says he meticulously studied the book of Acts, but then in real life he does the exact opposite of what that book describes. I would like to hear him explain it.


----------



## plum

the abortion/execution argument isn't right. being pro-choice DOES NOT equal pro-abortion.


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>Where do you get the idea that this is even feasible?

It isn't right now. What could be going to charity is going to taxes instead.

>Who would manage/oversee it? How would we assure that people get what they need?

Probably managed the same way denominations manage other things (like missions). First individuals, under leadership from the local church, then regional, national, and global. They manage other projects well, I don't see why they couldn't do this too. Plus more committees for people to sit on.









Personally, I trust my church (or even churches in the area who don't know us!) to take care of us should some tragedy happen. They've done it frequently. Not "welfare style", but providing for immediate needs and then getting people right back on thier feet, even if it means sacrifice on the part of church memebers. They're getting some apartments ready in the church building for unwed moms and needy families, same idea. Provide immediate needs, and a solid footing to start over.

The problem is, because of the tax and welfare system, it would take a concerted and united effort from religious organizations to turn it around. But if it did get turned around, I think it's totally feasable. For us and so many others, we are *longing* to be able to give more and more and more. Problem is, even with our low income, enough comes out of taxes that we can usually only manage tithe, and then we have bills to pay.


----------



## letabug

yeah, me, my husband and just about his whole Marine Corps Detachment. As our boss we feel he is doing a good job cleaning up and clearing up things that were ignored and left partially complete. We are directly affected by the Presidents choices. We are proud of our country and especially our military brothers and sisters. I don't want to start an argument I know that sometimes when I mention that we are a military family we get kinda bashed, just wanted to post.


----------



## Ms.Doula

letabug


----------



## Ms.Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
This is exactly my point. So, you are one of the 45 million uninsured? I'm sorry to hear that. I'm certainly not proposing that you would pay for others' health insurance but not get any yourself. That would be ridiculous! If we had universal health care, your family would get it along with the rest.

Thats it though-We dont want universal healthcare. Look at the countries that have it now... It sucks! And I dont want it regulated by the government!!

Quote:

On the other points: If Bush is going to make a "statement of faith" like that, then he'd better be prepared to live up to it. He hasn't.
How can you say that!?!? This is this man's _Spiritual Testimony_ Its not some code of honor or contractual pledge he made. He is just sharing his heart for the Lord!! And Who are you to judge another man's heart??
Maybe you should pray about it & then step back & read it again..... I think there is NOTHING in that "statement" that is less than glorifying to YHWH!!!


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:

I dont want universal healthcare. Look at the countries that have it now...It sucks! And I dont want it regulated by the government!!
Interesting! So, you like it regulated by profit-driven insurance companies instead?
Have you actually 'looked at the countries that have it now'? Have you compared infant mortality, maternal mortality, life expectancy and the like? You should, it's enlightening!
Want a health tip?
CHARTS. Healthcare costs; by nation, yearly dollars, and GDP percent.

I detest health care being a money-driven business in the hands of insurance companies. I grew up with universal health care and I see NO DIFFERENCE with the way things are here with insurance companies.

I think health coverage and medicines should be a right for everyone, not a privilege. Children and the elderly are the ones who suffer the most here. I live in Arizona and companies organize tours for seniors to go to Mexico and by their meds there! (BTW, meds manufactured in the US!!) I think that's sad.

In Italy medicines are free if you're under 12 or over 60 and everyone else pays on a sliding scale, like health coverage. Yeah, that really sucks!
My friend in England had 100% of her medical/dental needs covered from the moment she found out she was pg until her daughter was 12 months. Outrageous.

And before someone says "but you're not free to pick your dr! It takes forever to see a specialist..." I can't pick my doctors here, my insurance picks them for me, and after 2 miscarriages, I had to wait 9 weeks before I could see a Reproductive Endocrinologist. Yep, insurances are soooo good!


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:


Originally Posted by *letabug*
yeah, me, my husband and just about his whole Marine Corps Detachment. As our boss we feel he is doing a good job cleaning up

letabug, how do you, your husband and his whole Marine Corps Detachment feel about Bush's proposed budget cut from next year's budget by $844 million in health care and an additional $463 million in benefit programs for veterans? (including disability compensation, vocational rehabilitation, education survivor's benefits, and pension programs)

Just like not all "Christians" support Bush, not all military families do either...
Bring them home now
Military Families Speak Out
Soldiers for the Truth


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
How can you say that!?!? This is this man's _Spiritual Testimony_ Its not some code of honor or contractual pledge he made. He is just sharing his heart for the Lord!! And Who are you to judge another man's heart??
Maybe you should pray about it & then step back & read it again..... I think there is NOTHING in that "statement" that is less than glorifying to YHWH!!!

I'm not judging his heart, I'm judging his actions. And the actions are what counts. "By their fruits you shall know them." What I'm saying is that his religious rhetoric just doesn't match his greedy, selfish and corrupt actions.

Bush wrote: "I pray for guidance. I do not pray for earthly things, but for heavenly things, for wisdom and patience and understanding. My faith gives me focus and perspective. It teaches humility."

* Humility... where's the humility in his foreign policy?
* Earthly things ... I guess he doesn't have to pray for them; he's a multimillionaire thanks to his shameful, corrupt dealings at Harken Energy.
* Patience ... couldn't wait to invade Iraq, even though the intelligence was shaky at best. Now he has the blood of 760+ U.S. soldiers on his hands, plus 10,000+ Iraqi civilians. To say nothing of the thousands of U.S. soldiers who have lost limbs or otherwise been permanently harmed by this war.
* Understanding ... where's the understanding with people who don't agree with him? No understanding there ... he just assassinates their character.

I could pose the same question you you... how can you claim to know his heart? Why do you take his statement of faith at face value? What about the wolf in sheep's clothing?


----------



## RowansDad

Deleted. Double post.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
We dont want universal healthcare. Look at the countries that have it now... It sucks! And I dont want it regulated by the government!!

Ilaria covered this one pretty well, but I would just add this link: http://www.forbes.com/health/feeds/h...out518746.html

"The United States far outspends other English-speaking countries on health care, yet doesn't seem to be getting any better value for its dollars."


----------



## RowansDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
"By their fruits you shall know them."

Truer words...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/ira...es/casualties/

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/


----------



## MamaMonica

The fact that health care is tied to jobs- benefits from companies and corporations makes many people "forced" to work 40 hour weeks when in every other way (except health insurance) they could go part time and earn less, consume less and enjoy life more. More Family Time! What about family mattering? Universal health care would free people from the 40-hour work-week so they could have more time with families.

If family values REALLY mattered, not money, we would have health care reform. Now health care is big business. Driven by profits, not people.


----------



## letabug

In my previous post I was just stating what I personally know we have a VERY small detachment maybe 200 marines here on the army base, I wasn't saying that ALL military families support President Bush, I just know from a detachment BBQ that we had that they all were for the President. I have alot of friends...who are in the military who will not vote for President Bush. I was just responding to the post for fun, not to argue.


----------



## Ilaria

I posted those links simply because you post made me think about some misconceptions some might have.

But you didn't answer my question: how do you guys feel about Bush's proposed budget cut by $844 million in health care and an additional $463 million in benefit programs for veterans?


----------



## sleeping queen

Those cuts don't really bother me as long as he is cutting other items in the budget. The budget is the taxpayers dollars. I would like to see items like the Endowments for th Arts cut. I see a few pointless social programs in my own county that have nothing to do with medical care or feeding and housing poor cut. There is a program in my county where if you attend a story hour for enough weeks in the summer that you are eligible to go on a mini overnight trip paid for with tax dollars.







It wouldn't be some bad if some of the families going were poor, but I know people who go that are a long way from poor. When I speak of cutting social programs this is an example of waste that could be better used else where.


----------



## Wildcrafter

I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Ms. Doula for paying for my health insurance for my family of 3, health, dental, optical, even marriage counseling! I worked and contributed tax money for helping other welfare recipients for 21 years before I had my babe. We live simply and respectfully and felt it was worth it to have NO insurance rather than me going back to work. We found out after the fact that insurance would be provided by the governement. In one way or the other we are giving to those in need - why not look at it that way? Who's to say that charity from a church is better than charity from the government?

If people took proper care of themselves, the healthcare industry (let's not just blame the insurance companies - how about those immense drug companies?) would not be so profitable.

Sorry, what was this thread about? Notice how peaceful I am? That's because I use ignore


----------



## Mommiska

I don't usually have time to venture into Activism these days, but this thread caught my eye, and I've just spent way more time than I have wading through it!

Jeyer and Ilaria - ITA with everything you've said. As a Christian, I am so saddened by Bush's stance on just about every issue.









As for the original question - almost all of my family and extended family think Bush is the best thing since sliced bread. I totally got into it with a few of them last summer at our family reunion.

They are all lovely, well-educated, respectful, giving people. I love them and respect them so much. But honestly - as far as I can see, they vote on one issue - the pro-life one.

Because Bush is pro-life and Democrats are pro-choice, they will ALWAYS vote for Bush (or the resident pro-life Republican). All of the other issues - they are not very informed, to be honest. Or their knowledge about the other issues is made up of justifications for Bush's actions, because - they have to vote for him, because the pro-life issue is the only one they really understand/care about.

Jeyer and Ilaria's posts have summed up so well why I believe this is NOT a credible option for Christians, so I won't repeat them.

For those Bush supporters out there - I would really, really suggest that you read Paul O'Neill's 'The Price of Loyalty'. He was Bush's first Treasury Secretary and has been a Republican for years (he's an old crony of Bush Sr, Ford, etc). It is absolutely eye-opening (and scary) about the character, intellect and ability of Dubya.

Then move on to all of the other books about Dubya written by people who know him. There is a pattern there - these books all present an intellectually uncurious (is that a word? :LOL ) man who is surrounded by ideologues.

Ideologues (Bush included) who, for example, COMPLETELY intended to invade Iraq WAY BEFORE 9/11. 9/11 was a gift to the neo-cons (I'm not saying they planned it/let it happen/etc - but it made doing what they wanted to do anyway a whole lot easier).

Anyway - I must go, but please - read what those who know Bush say about him. The O'Neill book is enlightening...and absolutely horrifying.


----------



## chicagomom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
"The United States far outspends other English-speaking countries on health care, yet doesn't seem to be getting any better value for its dollars."

The OECD data show the US spent 13.9% of its GDP ($4900 per person) on healthcare in 2001, vs. a 31 country average of 8.9% ($2100 per person).

Interestingly, the US has a much higher infant mortality rate than these other countries, despite outspending them tremendously. (7.5/1000 live births in 2000). If you look at other countries that spend less, they have lower IMRs. Here's the IMR and (GDP %)
US = 7.5 (13.9%)
France = 4.5 (9.5)
Germany = 4.5 (10.7)
Ireland = 5.8 (6.5)
Italy = 4.8 (8.4)
Czech Republic = 3.4 (7.3)
Spain = 3.9 (7.4)
UK = 5.8 (7.6)

This argues pretty strongly for national healthcare. If we care about protecting the life of unborn babies, national healthcare yields tangible, cost-effective results.

OECD data:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/10/20/2789777.pdf
Infant mortality data:
http://www.who.int/child-adolescent-...y_Rates_00.pdf


----------



## chicagomom

For additional tangible, cost-effective results regarding protecting the lives of babies, we could lower infant deaths in the first year of life by 20% by bringing up rates of breastfeeding.

http://www.lvhhn.org/press_room/reut...3elin006.shtml

Unfortunately, the current administration is in the pocket of the formula lobby, and has been quietly delaying and weakening the campaign to promote breastfeeding, despite loud and clear opposition.

Tell me again how much they care about kids?


----------



## MamaMonica

information like that makes me wonder why any mother would support Bush. That and sending our nation's children to war.


----------



## indie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilaria*
letabug, how do you, your husband and his whole Marine Corps Detachment feel about Bush's proposed budget cut from next year's budget by $844 million in health care and an additional $463 million in benefit programs for veterans? (including disability compensation, vocational rehabilitation, education survivor's benefits, and pension programs)

I'm not letabug, but this makes me so angry. My dad served in Vietnam. He is physically and mentally screwed because of it. He was finally put on 100 percent disability about five years after his VA counselor started pushing for it (of course this was right after I graduated from college so I didn't get any of the college benefits).

So what does my dad get after giving up his physical and mental health in service to his country? Try a
two year wait to see a dentist. That's right two years.

Sure my dad gets a little money now that's he's unable to work. But his life will never be the same.


----------



## plum

that pains me. i don't understand how the government can see people as so disposable.


----------



## pilesoflaundry

I don't understand how anyone supports bush but I really can not fathom how anyone related to the military can







?

Hello--- if he is cutting veteran's benefits now that means anyone coming back from war that might be chaptered out of the military or discharged due to injury will lose benefits, anyone that serves their time and dies for this country well their family will lose benefits. He is sending these people off to war while he sits his butt at his desk signing forms to cut their benefits. That's a real slap in the face







. (and yes my dh is in the army and yup we both hate bush, but some people he works with love the guy







: )

And the last thing the va hospitals need is funding cuts, they are already stretched thin and understaffed. My fil almost died in a va hospital because lack of staff caused some problems with his care. And anyone that is active duty in the military and uses the military clinics for care knows how hard it can be to get an appointment and sometimes the wait is insane once you get to the clinic. I can't tell you how many times I had a sick kid and called to get an appointment and was told 'go to the er there are no appointments for a week'. And try getting a call back from a doctor in a decent amount of time..geesh.








: over


----------



## Mommiska

For those Christians out there who think that all Christians are Republican, here is a website that you might find interesting (and enlightening!):

www.sojo.net

DH and I subscribe to Soujourners magazine and I love this website. Very well-informed, thoughtful and challenging. And encapsulates so many of the concerns I have, as a Christian, regarding Bush and his administration.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska*
For those Christians out there who think that all Christians are Republican, here is a website that you might find interesting (and enlightening!):

www.sojo.net

DH and I subscribe to Soujourners magazine and I love this website. Very well-informed, thoughtful and challenging. And encapsulates so many of the concerns I have, as a Christian, regarding Bush and his administration.

Thank you so much for that link! Looks like an excellent resource. I'm thinking of subscribing!


----------



## GoodWillHunter

Yeah, my husband, my fil, mom, dad, sister, brother...gads, my whole family. 'cept me. Although, I don't support Kerry, either.


----------



## Mommiska

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
Thank you so much for that link! Looks like an excellent resource. I'm thinking of subscribing!

You're welcome! It really is a great resource. I







Jim Wallace - he does an amazing job articulating the plight of those at the bottom of our society - the people Jesus would be right there with, if he were on earth today.

And he's a good one for all of those Bush-loving Christians. He isn't nasty about Bush at all - in fact, some of the things that he says about Bush are quite positive. BUT - he is very very clear about where Bush's policies are the antithesis of what Jesus preached.


----------



## steffanie3

I do. And most everyone I know does.

Stephanie


----------



## Ilaria

Mommiska, that's a great site, I bookmarked it!


----------



## Bex80

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Jeyer, I would like to address your post. I John 2:3-6 says we are to obey God if we know God. I Thess. 5:22 says we are to flee evil. 3 John 1:11 we are to imitate good not evil. We are also to take care of the widows and orphans; I Timothy 5:16 and James 1:27. No where are we told to give over this responsibility to the government. I cannot support nationalized health care because I'm sure that it would cover abortions. Genesis 1:28 gives man dominion over the animals. I would assume that we are to respect God's creation, but enviromentalist border on worshiping the earth and that is wrong. Numbers 35:16 says that we are to put murders to death.

I believe we are to be generous and give to those in need, but by doing it through tax dollars we are forced to support people and ideals which are clearly agianst the Bible's teaching.


I like you!


----------



## dolphinkisser

Sleeping queen...what's the difference between " God's Creation " and " Earth" ..... a question from a curious environmentalist







:


----------



## sleeping queen

That's a good question. I suppose I used the word earth because there are people who do not believe in creation. I consider creation everything that God created like the sun, stars, animals, plants, etc.


----------



## isleta

Well, two people I know who supported Bush have recently told me they will not be doing it anymore. However, they really don't like Kerry so Nader will be an option I guess. They were just peeved that Bush is the only Republican choice.

Regarding the religon thing-I do not think any religon is right and also would add I have many friends and family who honor and worship the earth as their mother-I don't think they are wrong, just think differently and also charity is a big deal in Christian thinking, however it is usually tied to becoming a Christian-stings are attached.

I would rather my money go to children and people who are going hungry and lack medical care-plus work in some cases, than to Bush's war machine. OK-off soap box!


----------



## LDSmomma6

HUGE BUSH SUPPORTER HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Melda

MY FATHER! Who told me yesterday (in a joking manor I think) that if i vote for Kerry I will be written out of the Will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice eh? Then he went on about Kerry and his views on abortion (can you say right wing?) and I was like what do you think bush is doing to our troops right now? In my opinion he is aborting them one at a time ... sorry ... dont mean to cause a stink or a debate here but boy i walked away from him fast and decieded not to discuss this with him anymore. He thinks because I am his daughter I should think the way he thinks ... arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I did last time and that is why we are in this mess... I hate to admit i voted for our Ding Dong .. I mean George "Duh" ble U!


----------



## Justthebasics

Myself, husband, most of my family and some of our friends! I see we're in the minority in this forum~


----------



## sweetladyaz

I am! I am totally for Bush. So are most of my friends, all of my family, most of the people I work with.... heck. I don't know many that would vote for Kerry if they were paid. But that's just me, and I'm proud as hell of it.


----------



## Elzabet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetladyaz*
I am! I am totally for Bush. So are most of my friends, all of my family, most of the people I work with.... heck. I don't know many that would vote for Kerry if they were paid. But that's just me, and I'm proud as hell of it.









What she said.







Well, except the family part but we've learned to agree to disagree about many, many, MANY things.


----------



## CortLong

90% of the people I know IRL are Bush supporters (including DH and me)


----------



## kerikadi

I don't know anyone irl that supports _Kerry_. I would guess my brother and my mom do but they don't vote so it's not an issue.

Keri


----------



## Ilaria

Quote:

In my opinion he is aborting them one at a time .
Oh no- you see, war is pro-life.


----------



## indie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska*
For those Christians out there who think that all Christians are Republican, here is a website that you might find interesting (and enlightening!):

www.sojo.net

DH and I subscribe to Soujourners magazine and I love this website. Very well-informed, thoughtful and challenging. And encapsulates so many of the concerns I have, as a Christian, regarding Bush and his administration.

I wish I had the money to subscribe to this. I used to read it at work, but now I'm a SAHM. And I wish I could send a gift subscription to my grandfather-in-law who keeps sending me right-wing propaganda.


----------



## gurumama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IslandMamma*
Well, thankfully I live in a pinko commie liberal enclave, where Bush supporters are like needles in a haystack. Invisible, but they really stick you when you find 'em!









I love where I live. I feel safe here. It's the rest of the country I fear for...

I'm on the other coast in the same town, though!









I know one Bush supporter IRL, and Bush's policies on gay marriage and this Iraqi prisoner scandal and Bush's failure to truly address it have driven my friend away from Bush.


----------



## Leatherette

The only Bush supporter that I know (or that I know that I know!) is my grandma, who watches Fox News 24 hrs a day - she usually leaves it on in her sleep.

But I live in a liberal mecca (also an atheist mecca-or is that an oxymoron?), so that has limited my exposure to a wide range of Bush supporters.

As an atheist, my major beef is with the religious (read:Christian) agenda in American politics. I know from reading these posts (and from my good born-again friend who doesn't support Bush) that not all Christians support him, but I think that there are a lot of Christians in America who think a vote for Bush is a vote for Christ. I don't think Bush represents Jesus and his beliefs, anyway, but government is not religion.

That said, Kerry is about as exciting as a damp cat. And he plays a weak religion card. But what can ya do?

L.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*

That said, Kerry is about as exciting as a damp cat. And he plays a weak religion card. But what can ya do?

L.

True, Kerry isn't as "exciting" as, say, Bill Clinton. But c'mon... this isn't a race for homecoming king! Why do we have to insist that our presidents be exciting?

[idealistic rant over]


----------



## Leatherette

Exciting was probably a poor choice of words. I guess I mean interesting, thought-provoking, able to speak in a way that motivates others to action, things like that. Not handsome or sexy. No. That has gotten the Dems into enough trouble.









L.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*
Exciting was probably a poor choice of words. I guess I mean interesting, thought-provoking, able to speak in a way that motivates others to action, things like that. Not handsome or sexy. No. That has gotten the Dems into enough trouble.









L.

I know what you mean. I'm just tired of hearing people say, "Gee, I just like Bush because I feel like I can _relate_ to him. Kerry is so aloof (or boring, or whatever)."

I think Kerry has an inspiring message. Nearly every time I hear him speak, I find myself saying "right on." But too many people (not saying you) haven't really listened to him. They're just repeating what other people say about him without giving him a fair shot. Drives me crazy.

This isn't a friggin' popularity contest... being president of the U.S. is arguably the most serious job in the world. To me, it makes sense to elect a serious person.


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## Leatherette

That's actually fair. I haven't listened to him a lot since he became the candidate. Maybe I've missed something. I have gotten lazy because I am just voting for whoever isn't Bush or Nader.

L.


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