# I am not a short order cook!



## pepin (Oct 23, 2013)

When I was growing up, we all ate the same thing for dinner and nobody ever asked us what we wanted to have for dinner unless we were going out.

I am gluten and dairy free so I do make exceptions for myself -- meaning, I will use GF pasta for myself and regular pasta for everyone else. But....should I make the entire family eat the GF pasta, too? Cooking different pastas requires using more utensils and pots and extra cleaning up. It's getting old.

Also, one of my daughter's is really too picky. I am tired of catering to her. She should eat what we all eat. Always. If we are having steak, she will have a hot dog. I find this strange since she likes hamburgers. Actually, it is amazing that she now eats hamburgers but we only make them with top quality, local beef. Lately she says she doesn't want chicken for dinner because it is boring. Well. Nobody else thinks it is boring. We don't eat chicken every day! Last night I made one of Barefoot Contessa's lentil salads, chicken apple sausages and potato salad. So good. All of it. My daughter had leftover sloppy joe instead. I don't like making sloppy joe but I make it from scratch for her. I really wanted her to eat what we all ate.

And one more thing....she takes forever to eat. The rest of us are not fast eaters except DH......but my daughter is taking eating slow to a new level. What should I do about this? She gets up from the table many times and I keep telling her to sit back down and finish. It's becoming ridiculous.

Yesterday we went out to lunch with Grandma. Grandma even eats faster than our daughter. It was painful. The server was like, "Can I get you a box for her?" And were like, "no, she is still eating."

My daughter is 9. I need to lay down some laws. Help.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

She's old enough that you can have a discussion with her about this. Tell her you didn't mind making her alternate meals when she was little and still getting used to new foods but now you need a break from this so until September you will make one meal and expect her to choose what to eat from the food you prepare. I found that ignoring the slow eating and going to do something else when I was done eating helped dd eat quicker. I don't think it's unreasonable to box food up and let her eat it later or to start on dessert without her and box her dessert for home. It sounds like eating slowly and being picky is a power thing for her right now so I would address it by finding ways to give her power without inconveniencing others.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

I agree with One_Girl that it sounds like there are some control issues going on with food between you and your dd. I would make an effort to get out of that cycle. Stay very low-key about this stuff: be clear about your boundaries, let natural consequences take their course and don't engage emotionally.

At 9 she's old enough to understand the issues and to help with problem-solving. I would deal with this sort of stuff through family meetings filled with collaborative problem-solving.

Slow eating ... at a restaurant where everyone else is waiting around for her, would she agree it would make sense to box up the leftovers? My family came up with a rule at home: no one leaves the table until no more than one person is left eating. After that it's fair game to leave, and nothing needs to be said. That also applies to not wandering away from the table while eating. Mealtime for us is family time. Once you leave, respectfully, after giving others a reasonable chance to finish, you're done. 

Picky eating ... she should contribute ideas for family meal-planning. Our family had a deal where everyone could name one banned meal or food item that they disliked so much we agreed we would never serve it as a required part of a family meal. And after the banned foods had been stated, people could also choose (within reason, mostly as defined by cost and prep time) one meal that we would make at least once every two weeks. That way it wasn't about the parents choosing what everyone else ate, or else. Everyone had a single strong "yes" and strong "no" vote, and the kids could appreciate that we all had some significant say in it.

Whoever was doing the cooking would only cook one meal, but if convenient they might leave certain items "on the side" so that the person who, say, hated olives wouldn't have to have those in their pasta sauce. If someone absolutely couldn't stand to eat whatever had been cooked, they were free to prepare their own alternate food, but it had to be balanced (which we defined simply as having a source of protein, carbs and vitamins). 

And I would encourage her as much as you can to take a role in preparing meals. My kids have been cooking family meals more or less independently from the age of 9 or 10, and it has made a tremendous difference to the adventurousness of their palates. They started out at a younger age taking on smaller roles. For instance, choosing and chopping and arranging the pizza toppings, or creating the alfredo sauce for the pasta, or making the salad and dressing. 

Basically, if my kids are unhappy about meals I throw it back in their court. "Great... you help me figure out a way to make meals better for you, and keeps everyone else reasonably happy!"

Miranda


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I am the mother of a picky eater. I think it's fine to lay down the law that you will not be a short-order cook: I think it's less fine to insist that your daughter should like what you cook because it's "so good" and "not boring". It isn't good to her. My cooking is often not-good to my daughter; I get it. It's hard. You can insist on good manners, which means no complaining about what's served, but you can't insist that she actually enjoys what you enjoy.

She's old enough to particpate in meal planning or to fix herself an alternative (microwave some sloppy joe meat and put it on a bun) if you don't want to cook two meals, which is perfectly reasonable.


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

Mine are fairly picky too but I try to keep conflict to minimum when it comes to food; it's too loaded a topic, kwim?

The rules here are minimal: Do not hurt the cook's feelings. "No thanks" or "I don't care for X " is ok, "Ack, that's soooo disgusting" is not. I don't short-order but I often leave ingredients seperated if I know someone doesn't like something. They are free to heat up their own leftovers if they choose, and if the cooked veggie I make isn't liked they're welcome to get a raw alternate from the fridge. 

I do insist they at least try new foods, but if after one bite they hate it I let it go. Sometimes they come back to it later, sometimes not, but they are slowly expanding their tastes.

On a side note, other people's houses are great for this if you can swing it. My kids will come home liking things they wouldn't touch at home. I always ask for the recipe.


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

UGH! I hate that. My kids and dh are both gluten free. Meals can get expensive when you're cooking that way. So, as far as the pasta, I make myself regular pasta, because it's less money than the gf pasta, same goes with bread, etc. 

When possible, I also make meals that give choices, like tacos. I put the fixings out on the table and everyone can grab what they want (but you can't make a purely cheese taco, leave some for the rest of us!). I do the same thing with pasta. I make ground chicken, sauce, a couple different veggies, and then put it all on the table for people to pick and choose, within reason. They have to have a serving of veggies. 

I agree with getting her to help preparing food. Make it fun. Get on line and look for recipes together or watch cooking shows together. That way it can be more cooperative, and hopefully she'll feel some ownership over meals and be less fussy.


----------



## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

This is something we let got of. The one meal idea cost us too much in family harmony. My DS 13 has an over-active gag reflex. Until he was 5, I thought he was just "picky" and "stubborn." Dinner was a horrible event daily... like vomiting on the table horrible. We would all stress about it. Then, he got diagnosed and had occupational therapy for it and we let go of the "one meal or nothing" idea. Instead, we taught the boy how to cook. At 5, he could put together a decent cold dinner... sandwiches, yogurt parfaits with cut fruit, ect. At 13, he's a better cook than myself. I follow recipes, DS is actually creative and understands how foods go together. He also has gained enough skill and experience to eat most anything I cook now. He will certainly TRY anything I suggest. However, he knows if it's something he can't handle, he makes his own dinner. We started allowing DD 17 to do the same but she doesn't have the same issues and frankly, she hates cooking so much that she'd rather eat nothing but broccoli for a week than make something herself. She's going to love the dining hall at college. 

Anyway, I know we are a different sort of case but I must say that letting go the notion that we all have to eat the same thing each night was so liberating. I'm not a short-order cook. I just opened up the kitchen to the kids and learned not to take it personally. Meal time is actually fun now.


----------



## rs11 (Sep 28, 2011)

I intend to do what my family did growing up. It's harsh, but it works and it completely wipes out picky eating. Starting around preschool, the child eats what the family eats. Or doesn't eat. Period. Now, we were allowed to not eat the mushrooms in the casserole if we didn't like them and similar things, but there was none of the eating sloppy joes while the rest of the family had steak. And if you refused to eat dinner (or breakfast or lunch), there was no snacking until the next meal. 

This shouldn't be done with special needs or very young kids, of course.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

As soon is a child is old enough to make their own PB and J or get their own cereal with milk.. I stopped being the short order cook. 

Increase playtime before dinner. Two hours at the park will make even the pickiest kid hungry enough to try mom's food. You'd be surprised how many times they were too tired to make their own meal and tried the one I laid out for them instead. Success!

But yes, family menu planning is great. Each child get their favorite in at least once in every two weeks of menus. And they help me cook so they can see I'm not putting anything "weird" in the food.


----------



## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh my I feel your pain. Getting kids to eat well is difficult especially with food allergies and such. Here's what I do:

For special dietary foods it depends on what it is. For "main" ingredients like pasta in macaroni (that will be made as a one dish type of thing) we all get gluten free/etc. For "individual" ingredients like cheese on burgers the lactose free is just for DD and I buy regular for everyone else but this is mostly because of price.

I don't fight eating time. We all start eating together as a family and you can leave the table at any point you finish eating. Rule: If you are done, you're DONE! Don't leave the table and expect to come back to eat later. All plates/dishes go in the sink when you're done by you so I know you're finished.

I don't allow regular snacks for those that just choose not to eat. Meals and snacks are scheduled with no "grazing" except a small veggie tray (think raw baby carrots or celery sticks) and bottled water if you get hungry. Drinks are also only at meals except water.

For pickiness it helped to get the kids to sit down with me and make a favorites/hates list for each of them. Items that are truly hated I don't serve or don't serve often and they don't have to eat these. For those that they just don't want to eat I require two bites then they're done with it for that meal. 

I found it really helped to get them to help with meal planning and fixing. DS had a major mixed foods (chili, soup, etc) aversion but does much better if he helps so he knows what's in it I guess. Also for those they just don't seem to care for we come up with alternative ways to try eating it... ex. don't like boiled cabbage, try sauteed or in eggrolls; no whole strawberries, try in a smoothie. This has helped to find ways they eat some foods because sometimes it's a texture or other issue in my house at least. Some foods I just haven't told them they're eating like me putting chopped liver in spaghetti sauce. :thumb

Sorry for the long post but I hope it helps you. Food with kiddos is a constant battle!


----------



## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

pepin said:


> I am gluten and dairy free so I do make exceptions for myself -- meaning, I will use GF pasta for myself and regular pasta for everyone else. But....should I make the entire family eat the GF pasta, too? Cooking different pastas requires using more utensils and pots and extra cleaning up. It's getting old.
> 
> Also, one of my daughter's is really too picky. I am tired of catering to her. She should eat what we all eat. Always. If we are having steak, she will have a hot dog. I find this strange since she likes hamburgers. Actually, it is amazing that she now eats hamburgers but we only make them with top quality, local beef. Lately she says she doesn't want chicken for dinner because it is boring. Well. Nobody else thinks it is boring. We don't eat chicken every day! Last night I made one of Barefoot Contessa's lentil salads, chicken apple sausages and potato salad. So good. All of it. My daughter had leftover sloppy joe instead. I don't like making sloppy joe but I make it from scratch for her. I really wanted her to eat what we all ate.
> 
> .


Your chicken comment made me laugh! My son says the same thing. And I'm always saying "Well, we haven't had chicken in like a week. And, um, you NEVER get bored of burgers and that's just a hunk of ground beef!" heh

I don't have huge rules around food. I don't buy much junk food so we don't usually have chips and we hardly ever have cookies or candy in the house. I don't control snacking often unless they are eating me out of house and home and not eating their meals. Then I discuss the problem with them and they think about it and curb their snacking. However, I discourage snacking while I cook dinner or generally in the evening when I am about to cook dinner. I'll let them know dinner will be ready soon and if they are STARVING they should eat a carrot or celery, which gives them something to crunch while they wait.

I try to make meals that are tolerable for everyone. I'll leave out ingredients someone doesn't like, or I dice them small so they don't play such a huge role in the meal (like mushrooms in a speghetti sauce). They are not allowed to make something else unless the meal I have made is truly gag inducing or intolerable. For instance, they don't LOVE vegetarian coconut curry I make, but they will eat it and it doesn't make them sick. They can't make a peanut butter sandwich just because coconut curry is not their favorite. But, I also respect them by not making coconut curry every week. Sometimes I ask for their input on what we should eat but I like a wider variety of food so often I just make what I have. Otherwise we would live off pizza, mac n cheese, cheesesteaks and burgers. :lol

As for rules about eating at the table... everyone can leave when they finish eating but I don't want them wolfing their food down so they can run do something else. We like to have conversation at the table. No one really ever wolfs their food down and dashes. My youngest is a pokey eater and frequently she is the last one eating. I usually sit with her because I do not like to eat and run. I like to eat and then sit at the table and digest my food and chat. So my pokey eater and I chat while everyone else leaves the table. My husband does the dishes so if DD2 is taking a huge long time and he's like almost done cleaning the kitchen, we'll say it's time for her to be done. She usually is, anyway, she just is picking at things on her plate to avoid feeding the cats and getting ready for bed. heh.

That's our experience and it has always been that way so the kids expect it.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm gluten intolerant, one of my kids is lactose intolerant, and both of my kids are picky eaters (one has an issue with textures as part of being on the autism spectrum, and the other doesn't trust foods that are too mixed up because she doesn't trust them). I totally get where you are coming from.

What helps here:

1. Every body has to be polite. They can say "no thank you." Even if they don't want to eat it, they still can be polite.

2. They can get something else to eat, and clean up from it. Keep some simple stuff on hand, and show your DD how to get it herself. Just stop being a short order cook. One of my kids had yogurt and a banana for many dinners growing up. 

3. Giving the kids some control over meal planning. This started with them each having one meal a week that the planned what we would eat, help add the needed items to the grocery list, and help prepare it. They learned to cook this way. Now (they are 16 and 17) they each have one night a week that they completely prepare dinner. In addition to getting me off the hook one night per week per child, they have learned a valuable life skill. 

The meal thing still seems oddly complex to me. I'm tired of everyone's various food issues, even my own. None the less, at least we have peace around the issue.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

rs11 said:


> I intend to do what my family did growing up. It's harsh, but it works and it completely wipes out picky eating.


This will not "wipe out picky eating" or food aversions. It will make kids angry and resentful and make food a power struggle. It's easy when you have a 1yo; much more complicated when your child is aware that there are alternatives.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

rs11 said:


> I intend to do what my family did growing up. It's harsh, but it works and it completely wipes out picky eating. Starting around preschool, the child eats what the family eats. Or doesn't eat. Period.


Well, I suspect it might work okay for the run-of-the-mill unadventurous taste issues typical of toddlers and preschoolers. But not for truly picky eaters, the kids who gag or vomit or just can't eat things that taste foul to them, the ones who as they get older know perfectly well that they're really hungry and yet their parents are withholding the yogurt and banana that would satisfy their appetites. That is cruelty, not discipline in my book, and I'm pretty sure kids would perceive it exactly the same way.

For what it's worth, I think there's evidence of neurophysiological changes that happen within the sensory system when kids go through adolescence. Some senses, like the vestibular sense, get up-regulated, becoming much more sensitive: your kid who loved to twist the chains on the swing and spin and spin and spin suddenly says he feels like throwing up when he does that. And some senses, like the ones involved in taste, get down-regulated. My kids' taste aversions improved a ton during their teen years. It took them a while to realize that the things they'd been avoiding for years didn't taste bad or feel gross any more, but they gradually started eating like normal human beings. It makes sense from a survival standpoint that kids are hard-wired for taste aversion when they're little because in primitive cultures they would have been running around playing and snacking on forage ... and having not grown up enough to have learned the cultural knowledge about foods safe to eat, those who only ate bland familiar stuff would be less likely to accidentally eat something poisonous.

So those of you whose kids are still pre-teens, there is hope for some normalization of food preference after adolescence.

Miranda


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

moominmamma said:


> Well, I suspect it might work okay for the run-of-the-mill unadventurous taste issues typical of toddlers and preschoolers. But not for truly picky eaters, the kids who gag or vomit or just can't eat things that taste foul to them, the ones who as they get older know perfectly well that they're really hungry and yet their parents are withholding the yogurt and banana that would satisfy their appetites. That is cruelty, not discipline in my book, and I'm pretty sure kids would perceive it exactly the same way.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think there's evidence of neurophysiological changes that happen within the sensory system when kids go through adolescence. Some senses, like the vestibular sense, get up-regulated, becoming much more sensitive: your kid who loved to twist the chains on the swing and spin and spin and spin suddenly says he feels like throwing up when he does that. And some senses, like the ones involved in taste, get down-regulated. My kids' taste aversions improved a ton during their teen years. It took them a while to realize that the things they'd been avoiding for years didn't taste bad or feel gross any more, but they gradually started eating like normal human beings. It makes sense from a survival standpoint that kids are hard-wired for taste aversion when they're little because in primitive cultures they would have been running around playing and snacking on forage ... and having not grown up enough to have learned the cultural knowledge about foods safe to eat, those who only ate bland familiar stuff would be less likely to accidentally eat something poisonous.
> 
> ...


That is really interesting!


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oh, I feel your pain! I have two relatively picky children and a picky DP as well. All together we can set things up so all the picky eaters get healthy (enough) foods to eat but I find that my preferences get left out as a result. I like spicy foods, foods from a variety of cuisines and just variety in general. 

We balance that in a pretty erratic way. There are weeks where I go with the flow and we eat several meals of "fend for yourself" and several meals that are the things that everyone likes. Then there are weeks where I lay down the law and remind my family that if I/we are catering to them that my wants get left out. I will point out that I ate X last week and I do not especially care for it. And then I make some foods that I like and ask my family to eat it with me. 

There may be light though! My 12 year old is rapidly expanding what she likes to eat. I have been tolerant with her in that her preferences grow from things like dipping something in soy sauce or adding just a small bit to some rice. It's frustrating but I KNOW that an appreciation for these foods will grow from that. My toddler does very well with the whole divided plate choice thing. She eats very well this way. It is annoying but the lack of waste and the variety she gets through that preparation is worth it. 

Our big compromise is that I would never ask ANYONE to eat something that they were really turned off by. I have a few aversions and they are real. I would not ask my DC's or DH to eat something that they really disliked (and they would not ask that of me). In turn, we all do our part to eat the family meal - even if it is not our favorite, or what we're in the mood for. Our general rule is that if you don't hate it and someone in the family is willing to cook it, you should eat it.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

If the issue is the *work* put into the meal, get help. Design a menu that can be tailored to most needs and cuts down on stove space. For example, pull out some plain potatoes before adding them to potato salad (which still makes me gag even as an adult--so there!) and let them butter and mash them. Cook a hot dog alongside the chicken-apple sausage. Have them prepare a bun and grab the condiments and set the table. Preteens and teenagers can do more.

If the issue is *togetherness*, first understand that eating the same exact meal does not equal togetherness. I know this because my daughter and I have multiple, "competing" allergies. If the dinner accommodates me, I need to come up with something for her and vice versa. We alternate buttermilk biscuits with wheat/dairy free cornbread. In the summer, we forage in the garden and make dinner together. They like making the veggies, even if they don't eat the same ones I do. *Because* they don't have to eat them, I think.

Also, on *togetherness*, if you would expect your children to eat what's in front of them, I would expect that you would give them some creative control over the menu and then, of course, YOU would be eating the hot dog/sloppy joe. Without pouting or grabbing a salad from the fridge if it's missing!

You sabotage the togetherness when you make a big deal of this. You are saying "*this* is togetherness" and basing it off _eating the same thing_ not true togetherness which is emotional. (I am immediately struck by the comparison with the cliquish "wear this and we will be friends!").

If, by enforcing eating *one predetermined menu* you intend to *change the picky eater*, you don't understand picky eating. I know because I have 2 picky eaters in the house. One is your everyday runofthemill picky eater who really has a wider palate than many other kids but is wary. Some of the wariness is age appropriate, some is based on her considerable allergies and natural suspicion of food.

My other picky eater is of an entirely different sort. A hearty eater as a babe, at around 3 yo she became extremely picky, especially to scent and texture. She would retch when dh and I had strong smelling salsa on the table (which we used to spice up our bland cooking). Even if her plate was as she wanted it, if anyone else's plate had something else on it she wouldn't have eaten, she would retch every time she looked (even though we *never* made her eat what she didn't want, not even a taste). Food had to be uniform (hot dogs, not hamburger) with no bits WHATSOEVER. Etc. Etc.

Someone far back in the thread mentioned that letting go of resistance to being a short order cook is liberating and I heartily agree. It was for me, certainly. But I will admit that there are limitations. Just two nights ago, when inspiration and appetites were high, I had to brainstorm with the girls (who were helping, BTW) how we were going to get it all fixed. We were running out of pans, out of room on the stove. So we switched stuff around, made some pans do double-duty by throwing something in after something came out. Everybody took part (this doesn't always happen, btw) and it made for great family time. Everybody had something they were looking forward to.

No one noticed at the table that each and every one of us had something different.

And well said, Miranda!

I've avoided this thread because I always end up saying the same thing in defense of picky eaters and shrugging my shoulders at the intense resistance to short-order cooking and simply not understanding the persistence of what I perceive as an old-school approach on a progressive parenting site. I wind up sounding like a broken record (what's that? ask all the whippersnappers ) But here I am again....


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pepin said:


> I am gluten and dairy free so I do make exceptions for myself -- meaning, I will use GF pasta for myself and regular pasta for everyone else. But....should I make the entire family eat the GF pasta, too? Cooking different pastas requires using more utensils and pots and extra cleaning up. It's getting old.
> 
> And one more thing....she takes forever to eat. The rest of us are not fast eaters except DH......but my daughter is taking eating slow to a new level. What should I do about this? She gets up from the table many times and I keep telling her to sit back down and finish. It's becoming ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I don't see any problem with only fixing the GF pasta. My family really likes the bionatura GF pastas, and only dd9 needs to eat it. I used them because my daughter is sensitive to too much rice, and these have potato and soy flour instead of just rice (which also helps the texture). Alas, I can't eat these (allergic to rice and soy) so I still end up cooking two pans of pasta. But cooking noodles hardly dirties up a pan. Keep your pans segregated and they don't need more than a "swish".

As far as the slow eating, you must ignore this. You cannot and should not make someone eat at a pace that is unnatural for them.

If they are getting up and down, it could mean they need to move while eating, and a "wiggle cushion" (Recommended by feeding therapists.) If she gets up and down, let her know that you never know if she's finished or not, and ask that she gives you a signal when you can clean up her plate or ask her to bring her plate to the sink when finished. Then ignore ignore ignore. If you have to stick your nose in a magazine or iPad. Ignore ignore ignore. Star doing the dishes. Ignore ignore ignore.

Out at a restaurant, if it's busy, let her know that you can't give her all the time she needs like usual and choose an agreed upon point to box up her food to eat in the car. Fries can be reheated in the oven. If it's not busy, pull out your phone and give her some time. Eat at places where she can get up and down, or if the wiggle cushion works, have her haul it in.

Trust me, she feels your disapproval, frustration and annoyance, and you would be lucky if she's not taking it personally.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

pepin said:


> My daughter is 9. I need to lay down some laws. Help.


I totally disagree with this sentiment, partly because of the age of your DD. Moving into adolescence is NOT the time to start a power war with your DD over food. She'll win.

Some girls have even destroyed their own health and lives in order to prove they have control over food.

The "every one eats the same thing in the same amount of time" thing was common when I was growing up, and I've sat in Weight Watchers meetings that were full of women who had no idea when they were full, and were incapable of not eating food that was in front of them, even if they didn't particularly like it.

I think its important to stay focused on the long term goal of our kids having healthy eating habits and a healthy relationship with food, and not get to hung up on how dinner goes today. Isn't it better for your DD to eat a hot dog today and not have to spend years of her adulthood trying to figure out when she is full and when she is hungry and why she is eating?


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

chickabiddy said:


> This will not "wipe out picky eating" or food aversions. It will make kids angry and resentful and make food a power struggle. It's easy when you have a 1yo; much more complicated when your child is aware that there are alternatives.


I disagree... Demanding favorite foods is a power struggle that makes mom resentful. Mom is still in charge at this age, IMO, for the childrens' health and maturation. There are no alternatives if mom serves various healthy palatable meals and does not have an unlocked cabinet full of poptarts or such for secret snacking.

We are assuming that mom is not serving the kids chicken livers in gravy, creole shrimp, or lamb-filled peppers, of course. If the kids will submit the meals that please them then mom can incorporate them into the weekly meal plan.

Catering to children's tastes does nothing to nourish them or encourage tolerance for other's budgets and preferences, IMO. I've dined with too many adults who peeled the cheese off their burgers, gave 7-step directions to the wait staff about how to prepare their meals, sent back dishes because contained some celery, etc. I sincerely do not believe that anyone should turn away nourishing lovingly-prepared food unless they are allergic to it. With millions of people worldwide malnourished and parents everywhere trying to make the best lives for their families as possible, I don't think that some cooperation and tolerance from the children is too much to ask.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pumabearclan said:


> Catering to children's tastes does nothing to nourish them or encourage tolerance for other's budgets and preferences, IMO. I've dined with too many adults who peeled the cheese off their burgers, gave 7-step directions to the wait staff about how to prepare their meals, sent back dishes because contained some celery, etc. I sincerely do not believe that anyone should turn away nourishing lovingly-prepared food unless they are allergic to it. With millions of people worldwide malnourished and parents everywhere trying to make the best lives for their families as possible, I don't think that some cooperation and tolerance from the children is too much to ask.


This begs the question: how do you know these adults didn't come from households where they had to eat what was put before them, and when they finally got to adulthood--hallelujah!--they got what they wanted FINALLY.

I agree, it would be nice if people didn't simper and fuss over food without appreciation, but I disagree that making kids eat it or go without is going to prevent this. (I think forbidding simpering and fussing is a good start, not dictating food consumption so strictly.)

If the family eats chicken livers (or tripe or lengua or kidney pie), then what qualms would a child *naturally* have eating it over *cheese* or any other cultural foodstuffs.

Having pop tarts or anything else in the cupboard is not going to change a truly picky eater. The truly picky eater WILL go hungry before putting the offending food in the mouth. But there probably is something in the house they like, and if you only stock nutritious food, then naturally a child's diet will be nutritious.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

It's been argued (somewhere, somewhere) that the first world experiences pickiness is, in part, that foods in other countries are far less varied from day to day. The sheer number of OPTIONS here. The need for adults to have NOVELTY. The AVAILABILITY of a *world* of food. Kids like predictability. Some kids need total predictability.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Originally Posted by *pumabearclan*  
_Catering to children's tastes does nothing to nourish them or encourage tolerance for other's budgets and preferences, IMO. I've dined with too many adults who peeled the cheese off their burgers, gave 7-step directions to the wait staff about how to prepare their meals, sent back dishes because contained some celery, etc. I sincerely do not believe that anyone should turn away nourishing lovingly-prepared food unless they are allergic to it. With millions of people worldwide malnourished and parents everywhere trying to make the best lives for their families as possible, I don't think that some cooperation and tolerance from the children is too much to ask._



SweetSilver said:


> This begs the question: how do you know these adults didn't come from households where they had to eat what was put before them, and when they finally got to adulthood--hallelujah!--they got what they wanted FINALLY.


Being picky as above is essentially being unwilling to conform with acceptable social behavior. Telling your friends that even a hint curry in their pot luck dish is unacceptable (without tasting it), dissecting food in a restaurant, and ordering a restaurant to discard your meal over a tablespoon of celery are poor manners. It is also poor manners to behave this way in the home and that starts in childhood. I'm not advocating forcing children to eat food they dislike or encouraging any parent to regularly offer food that the children dislike, but eating a single bite to taste (under condiments, if necessary), without faces, derogatory sounds, or complaints, is good manners and leaves open the possibility that the child's tastes will change.

Most of the time adults will make the foods they enjoy, and most of the time (I hope) children are given foods they enjoy.

I have a spiritual reverence for food and eating, that food is a gift to us and that it is also a gift to one another; it is a source of dignity and should be accepted with gratitude and humility for the nourishment it provides. I do in fact eat many things that I don't enjoy, such as raw liver and fish, because of the unique nourishment they provide, and as I'm lucky enough to have access to these foods it would be irresponsible, I feel, to deprive my body of health because I don't care for the taste of them. I also wouldn't want my host to feel rejected if I refused to eat the food provided, or to miss out on sampling the foods of other cultures by regularly choosing a McD when traveling. I really do think that maintaining a loose hold on preferences is the source of tolerance and spiritual growth.

I'm sure that every mother wants her children to be both nourished and satisfied. I feel this is best accomplished by feeding children well and also challenging them to develop some maturity regarding food. Getting what you want and appreciating what you have in life (or on your plate) do not always coincide, but both can yield satisfaction with the right attitude.

Hopefully there is an acceptable "middle ground" for each parent and child regarding food. Surely some acceptable side dishes can be included in a meal, or a recipe changed to make it more palatable. If a child refuses to eat anyway, once in while, I see nothing wrong with that. Another meal will be coming around in several hours.


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

This is so interesting, because I have found that the pickiest adult eaters are the ones who were forced to eat things they didn't want to growing up.It set up a bad relationship with food in general, and now that they actually have the power to make their own food decisions, they make everything is EXACTLY how they want it. They aren't willing to move out of their comfort zones even the littliest bir.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

^ "Being forced" is probably the key here. Food being offered and being forced to eat (through threats, displeasure & anger, shaming, having food withheld from meal to meal until the disliked food is eaten) are different.

The OP sees and others have indicated a power struggle over food. This is in addition, probably, to the child's natural legitimate preferences.

It's possible to offer food and accept the child's choice to refuse it without getting caught up in the power struggle. Mom getting resentful or frustrated, as SS said, is probably keenly perceived by the child. If Mom can offer the food and accept its rejection without being upset about it, as well as including the children to a point in the meal planning and prep, then the child shouldn't feel the need to engage in a power struggle with the parent.

I was lucky that I didn't have food issues with my daughter. When she didn't like something I served it less often and offered condiments to help the very small portion go down easier. I would say "I know you don't like this, but please just take one bite. It really is good for you and maybe you have changed your mind since you tried it last. You don't have to eat it to please me or taste more than one bite. I gave you extra [favorite food] this evening because I figured you wouldn't want much [disliked food]. If your dad and I didn't like it so well I wouldn't serve this at all."

Rereading the original post I can sense that mom seems to feel underappreciated and somewhat offended as well by her daughter's behavior. She is clearly trying her best to make elegant wholesome meals that boost her family's pleasure and health. Having her daughter reject that seems to hurt, understandably. If she can invite her daughter to participate and accept a refusal then that is probably best. Her daughter may decide to join the family rather than feel left out (and hungry). However, making separate meals for the child is giving her an inappropriate degree of power over the family culture, IMO.

Another thought is to make individual meals ahead of time and everyone chooses what they want. I do this often, because I don't like to cook. I do all the prep in one day and package in individual dishes & freeze. Everyone can choose what they want from the options. But if sharing the same meal is important to the OP and she likes to cook then this may not work for her.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

[crossposted with your last post, pbc] pumabearclan, your views on food are admirable. But you answered my post without answering my question and now QOTM weighed in on it. You don't know if that overbearing diner comes from a household where food choice was given priority. And I have anecdotes that show the opposite-- that kids who were allowed a great deal of slack became quite adventurous eaters. I'm not out to prove anything except that until you know their story, placing the burden on parents who indulge pickiness is a mistake.

It's my *opinion* that parents who state that kids who have to eat what they are given, taste one bite etc. etc. and that will lead to kids who are not picky, have never had a truly picky kid, or a kid that will dig their heels in no matter how hungry they get. The kids have been "easy" and amenable, more or less, to that approach.

But in my mind, that doesn't make that approach any better than another. Stating that "my kid isn't picky because I did this" is possibly false. Whenever we choose a path, and we get a certain outcome, it's easy to credit the path. That might be the case, but it might not. It is correlative evidence.

That works both ways. I could say that, for the once-picky eaters I am acquainted with who had their pickiness accommodated, that this lead to them being OK with being adventurous, but I don't know that. My 9yo, for example, just whipped up a garden feast of peas, mashed potatoes with chive "butter" (non-dairy), and collard greens with tamari. She didn't like the collards after one bite. She likes the spinach, though. DD7 munched on raw peas alongside her favorite egg noodles in homemade chicken broth. She's my truly picky eater, but she's decided that the fat floating in the broth is where the good taste is (I used to strain it through cheesecloth once upon a time). And though she never eats vegetables beyond the occasional carrot, she browses like a deer in the garden. She will taste flowers, eat raw kale, everything. This wonderful result might not have been from my liberal kitchen exactly, but it didn't result from forcing my kids to eat or even taste foods, either.

I do know that if our modest, flexible, respectful approach to food is done with the here-and-now in mind and not some overarching food-training regimen, then all will be well. When togetherness and good food matter more than what's on the plate vs. what's on another plate and shifting in seats vs. sitting still or eating slowly vs. eating at a good pace, then that's all good.

I don't eat to train my kids to be good eaters. Sure, we have a rule "Eat what you want, don't eat what you don't want , and don't make a fuss". It's easy to not make a fuss in our house because kids don't have to eat or even try anything they don't want.

I eat with my kids to be together with my kids. I agree, food is spiritual. But more important, and perhaps even integral to that, *connecting* with your family is spiritual. I guess sitting and fuming over a wiggly 9yo is *connecting* as well, but to what end?

(Aside: I get the frustration that increases as kids turn this age and still hang on to behaviors you thought would pass a long, long time ago. I *still* find myself amazed when my angry 9yo bites her sister. GAH! Doesn't happen often, but still. I wonder if it's often the oldest that makes us wonder what exactly is the real timeline for ending what we thought of as toddler behavior!)


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

SweetSilver said:


> Stating that "my kid isn't picky because I did this" is possibly false. Whenever we choose a path, and we get a certain outcome, it's easy to credit the path. That might be the case, but it might not. It is correlative evidence.


Actually I didn't say that my daughter wasn't a picky eater because of what I did... She wasn't a picky eater. But when she was presented with things she didn't like, that is what I did, and the point wasn't that it caused her not to be picky but that it diffused any potential power struggle between us over food. In case it helps anyone reading this thread to collect ideas that feel right to them. So I think you misunderstood my comment or I wasn't very clear about it.

Incidentally, my mother used food as abuse. And I'm not now a picky eater. So there are not hard and fast rules about outcomes.

I view these threads as collections of ideas for the many people who read them to consider, not to arrive at a consensus or "right" solution. I value discussion. I used the internet quite a lot when I was parenting and always found very provocative and insightful material in discussions among other moms. And everyone is free to change their mind or reaffirm their own values through the process; it's very helpful.

Bon appetit to all!


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pumabearclan said:


> Actually I didn't say that my daughter wasn't a picky eater because of what I did... She wasn't a picky eater. So I think you misunderstood my comment or I wasn't very clear about it.


You are right. I worded it badly, meaning people in general, not you or what you stated specifically. Bad editing on my part. Consider this an apology. I didn't misunderstand, just was unclear in wording my point.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

SweetSilver said:


> But in my mind, that doesn't make that approach any better than another. Stating that "my kid isn't picky because I did this" is possibly false. Whenever we choose a path, and we get a certain outcome, it's easy to credit the path. That might be the case, but it might not. It is correlative evidence.


This really should read "I hear people state that their kids isn't a picky eater because they have certain rules, and that statement is probably false."

It's a common *understanding* that people who discuss picky eating assume that their actions are causative to the result, or that other's action are causative to other results. And I disagree that it's that simple. I disagree that because that irritating diner is picky now, that he was every indulged as a child. Or even automatically that he was in a inflexible situation either.

I haven't misunderstood your assumption that X leads to Y, since you used those examples as to why kids shouldn't be overly indulged and that certain rules should be in place.

The only rule I agree with is that their shouldn't be any whining over it. But I tell my girls that I do like to hear their opinions if they can tell me in a constructive way.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

No apology required; not in the least! 

Your description of your daughter's browsing is beautiful, BTW. I once caught mine snacking on the nasturtiums at a friend's patio, haha


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I wonder if part of the disagreement comes from my feeling that letting a child go hungry, when there is something that they can and will eat is a punishment, where as others are looking at it as a natutal consequence. I guess only giving a child two options that are equally unappealing to them doesn't sit well with me.

That being said, I do not have picky eaters. Each one of my kids have one or two ingredients they truly hate, so it's pretty easy to either not add those things or make part of the same dish without say onions. So I am not sure how I would feel if they consistently rejected my cooking.


----------



## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Like all scenario's in parenting, how different children react to different parenting styles varies. We all have a story of how we took the "hard line" and how well it worked and it "all parents did this" then the world would be a better place. Many of us also have stories of taking the hard line and having it fail miserably or causing sneakiness or rebellion later on. We all have some part of life that was just "easy" and we don't understand how it can be hard for others. If there was actually ONE best way to parent, these boards would simply not exist. We'd all just follow the manual and never raise a kid who was anything but ideal in all moments of life. 

My eldest is compliant. She was born compliant. I could ask her to do something, eat something, sit somewhere and she'd do it without showing an ounce of displeasure. It wasn't until she hit her mid-teens that the passive-aggressiveness came out. Her ability to tank a situation she never wanted to be in is pretty masterful and what is worse? It took her a couple years to actually recognize she was doing it. She's had to learn to say "no." 

My youngest isn't compliant at all. Never has been. With him, force is always met with force. It was so difficult when he was little but I'll be honest, these days, I appreciate that I always know where he stands. There are no buried feelings. Better yet, it gave us the opportunity to work with him not only on his ability to try new things but on his ability to be courteous to those that prepared things he couldn't handle.

My mom grew up in poverty and so food was a real issue for her. She always took the hard line without really comprehending that while it was eat what is provided or starve, she also ate from a very bland, very child friendly diet when she was growing up. Our diet was nothing of the sort. We were one big experiment that only got more difficult when we turned vegetarian (I'm grateful for the vegetarian part but some of those experimental dishes were really hard for a child.) I went to college and ate nothing but white bread and sugared cereal for a year in response. As an adult, I take great pleasure in never having to eat certain things again.

My point, asking for advice trying to sell that what works for one is the ANSWER for all just isn't reasonable.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

If the child is involved in the meal decisions and the presentation of a meal they don't like is infrequent and accompanied by some palatable side dishes then it really is their choice to go hungry. It is "letting them go hungry" by not giving them their way, IMO, and most parents do not let their children have their way 100% of the time.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

pumabearclan said:


> If the child is involved in the meal decisions and the presentation of a meal they don't like is infrequent and accompanied by some palatable side dishes then it really is their choice to go hungry. It is "letting them go hungry" by not giving them their way, IMO, and most parents do not let their children have their way 100% of the time.


You live in a different world than I do. I have 2 kids who had completely different sets of food issues, so the concept of "presentation of a meal they don't like is infrequent" was just impossible for several years. There were almost no meals that both my children would eat. Really. Applesauce as a side every single night as a the only food that at least one of my children would be eating that night was not healthy. One of my children (the one with autism) would go to be bed hungry rather than eat foods that she just couldn't eat, and she would wake up crying in the night.

Good for you for having such an easy time of it.

Not so good for you for getting that this is actually a difficult issue in some families.

I'm not seeing how sending a child bed hungry is in line with gentle discipline at all. It seems quite cruel to me. But then again, I've actually done it, back when I believed the same nonsense you are saying on this thread. I'm guessing you are saying it because *you have no idea what it is actually like.* I suspect that the first time your child was really HUNGRY, which is a miserable feeling, that you would provide food that she would eat.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm seeing a lot of judgement here -- "the food is good", "the food is elegant". That's an opinion. It's obviously not the child's opinion.

I think manners should be enforced, and I don't think parents should be short-order cooks, but I do think that as conscientious and attentive parents we should acknowledge that our children have a right to their own opinions about our "elegant" food.

What to do about those opinions is another matter, but I don't think it's kind to tell a child that she must go hungry and can't have healthy food* because she didn't like the same thing I liked.

* again, parents don't have to be short-order cooks, but a preteen or teen should be able to slice some cheese and wash a piece of fruit or heat up some leftovers.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Linda on the move said:


> Good for you for having such an easy time of it.
> 
> Not so good for you for getting that this is actually a difficult issue in some families.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

My child is picky. She is not disabled. It would still be very unkind, and not at all nurturing, for me to make her go hungry because she has different opinions about dinner than I do. She knows full well that there is food she can eat in the refrigerator, and for me to deny it to her is... well, it's not the kind of parent I want to be.


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Alright, let's all take a deep breath here. Pumabearclan, I think that you might be feeling a bit teamed up on. I'm sorry you're feeling that way. I have really enjoyed the conversation and the different points of view. I think food and how we relate to it is a really complicated issue. It involves how we were parented, how we parent, social mores, our own eating issues, sense of worth, special needs, gentle parenting, etc. Let's face it, this issue actually goes way beyond the actual food that we serve to our family. I think if we look at it from that point of view, maybe we can be a bit more compassionate to each other.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I would never let my kids go to bed hungry either. I said up thread that some nights we "fend for ourselves" (meaning everyone makes their own food, with the exception of the toddler). On the nights that we have a family meal that I know everyone can tolerate I ask everyone to please try to fill up on dinner. There is NO WAY I would ever tell a child they can't go back for a snack if that didn't happen. BUT, we are often budgeting for the week and that budget includes making snacks, lunches, and breakfast foods last the week. There are times where having a yogurt after dinner can really throw me off for what we have for lunches later in the week. Taken to extremes it can also mean that all we have left to eat by the end of the week are foods where I KNOW my kids will be really bummed about having to eat. I find the whole food choice thing to be slightly more complicated on a tight budget. What I do on the nights were I suspect my kids will want a snack is tell them what they can have (and I always offer things that I know they like). What happens if they refuse that? I don't know - it hasn't happened but my guess is that we'd have to get down to some pretty gnarly problem solving. My 12 year old could probably make a bargain and stick with it (like having foods she doesn't like as much for breakfast and lunch) but I don't think my toddler is capable of making those sorts of agreements.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

QueenOfTheMeadow said:


> Alright, let's all take a deep breath here. Pumabearclan, I think that you might be feeling a bit teamed up on. I'm sorry you're feeling that way. I have really enjoyed the conversation and the different points of view. I think food and how we relate to it is a really complicated issue. It involves how we were parented, how we parent, social mores, our own eating issues, sense of worth, special needs, gentle parenting, etc. Let's face it, this issue actually goes way beyond the actual food that we serve to our family. I think if we look at it from that point of view, maybe we can be a bit more compassionate to each other.


We cross-posted. I agree. :love

Discussions about food often get very emotional - a credit to their deep significant to us both for life and as part of our culture.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> My 12 year old could probably make a bargain and stick with it (like having foods she doesn't like as much for breakfast and lunch) but I don't think my toddler is capable of making those sorts of agreements.


I agree, but since this is in the Preteens and Teens section, I assume we're talking about kids who are capable of preparing their own snacks, comprehending why they can have cheese but can't have a candy bar, and understanding the ramifications of "there are four yogurts left and I won't be buying more until the weekend".


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

chickabiddy said:


> I agree, but since this is in the Preteens and Teens section, I assume we're talking about kids who are capable of preparing their own snacks, comprehending why they can have cheese but can't have a candy bar, and understanding the ramifications of "there are four yogurts left and I won't be buying more until the weekend".


Oh, yes, you are right. I didn't realize which forum we were in. Yes, for many older children and teens I think that the "natural consequence" of plowing through the weekly yogurts is a pretty good lesson - and one I let my older child be reminded of on occasion. ;-)


----------



## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

I definitely wouldn't want to see any child go to bed hungry. In our house it goes both ways though... I do force a bite or two be consumed of certain foods that have been made: if it's a new dish you should try it, or if it's something that the child previously ate and now doesn't want to. There are certain foods that the kids don't care for though and I know they have expressed good reason and they aren't forced to eat these. I also don't force them to eat all of anything but they are asked to take a bite or two to try things. I think the big thing that helps make this work and expand children's food palates without it being a struggle though is giving them the choice. Just an example: DS doesn't like fish. I made it, he tried it and hated it so no fish for him that night. After that I showed him the different types of fish and different recipes to try with fish and we selected together what would be tried next time. He had an option in helping find fish that he might like and he was willing to help and try the meals. With so many people living here though we have a wide variety of favorites, likes, dislikes and hates. I try not to make anything anyone hates. I only do that if it's a favorite for someone else, it happens rarely and the one that hates it for that meal is allowed to do a simple substitute like pbj. I try to balance the dislikes with the likes though... if I'm making the bean dish DD likes more then I make the side veggie that DS likes more to go with it and vice versa. It's hard to get balance in a household but it's really helped here to sit down as a family and make our menus together. Everyone gets to list all the foods they like and don't like and we sort them out into the meal plan. I also let them help me choose new recipes to try or at least introduce them to the new recipe I'm going to be making ahead of time. It seems to be working well here at least to keep everyone mostly happy and teach them respect and proper food choices. Discussing nutrition and how to set up a balanced meal then letting them help me make the menu plan has done a world of help here in getting my kids to eat better and be more open-minded about food.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

crazyms said:


> I definitely wouldn't want to see any child go to bed hungry. In our house it goes both ways though... I do force a bite or two be consumed of certain foods that have been made: if it's a new dish you should try it, or if it's something that the child previously ate and now doesn't want to. There are certain foods that the kids don't care for though and I know they have expressed good reason and they aren't forced to eat these. I also don't force them to eat all of anything but they are asked to take a bite or two to try things.


I'm not quoting you to nitpick, just to bring up the big question in my mind:

Why do parents force ("have a rule for") kids to eat the one bite? To expand palates? To enforce politeness? What's the point? What result from having such a rule (or from being forced) exceeds not having a rule?

I've *encouraged* one bite for foods I think they might enjoy. But I have no rule for this.

I'm guessing the parents on this thread who have such a rule are using "force" as "have a rule", and haven't had kids push them into the other, less casual use of the word.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow this thread got interesting! I've never been a big fan of the one or two bite rules. I feel it's my journal to offer healthy food my dd likes with some new things from time to time and her job to eat or not. I've seen people doing the two bite thing and I've never seen it result in a child liking the food. With a preteen or teen this just seems like a strategy that would create a power struggle. 

I did find that a conversation and one meal was helpful for getting my dd through most of her pickiness but that was after almost seven years of patiently introducing new foods and making sure she always had healthy alternatives. Even then there wasn't a limit on healthy snacking except for three hours before dinner time. And if I want something dd doesn't like I do make two meals but luckily it doesn't happen often. Some foods are just nasty to some people, I still find some revolting and I won't eat them no matter how many hungry people there are in the world.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

SweetSilver said:


> I'm not quoting you to nitpick, just to bring up the big question in my mind:
> 
> Why do parents force ("have a rule for") kids to eat the one bite? To expand palates? To enforce politeness? What's the point? What result from having such a rule (or from being forced) exceeds not having a rule?
> 
> ...


For me, yes, to expand palates and to be polite.

I never enforced this rule. It was an expectation and I was clear in explaining to the child the reasons (above). The bite could be tiny, even just a taste, and could be accompanied by condiments.

Forcing falls into my "abuse" categorization as I posted previously: "Food being offered and being forced to eat (through threats, displeasure & anger, shaming, having food withheld from meal to meal until the disliked food is eaten) are different."

I haven't had the impression from the posts that anyone was forcing (in the abusive sense) any child to do anything, only that we are all setting different expectations for the children; basically how much a parent was willing to accommodate and challenge a child's palate.

SweetSilver prioritizes meals as a family bonding experience and I prioritize them differently (a matter of self-mastery and nourishment) and others have different approaches too. Different people have different values about it which is totally fine.

Getting back the OP, I still think that she is expecting a certain family experience that her daughter is rejecting and it's not entirely about the food. So the OP is challenged to reassess her values re meals and make a kind choice about what to do that she feels is best for all (including herself). Clearly there are many options, as have been well-articulated here.

I am convinced that this is a vital discussion and I'm glad that we are brave enough to disagree in order to explore what this means to our families.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pmc, I agree that no one is actually forcing kids in the direct sense of the word (and I did point that out) but "force" has been used casually, as in this sentence:



crazyms said:


> I do force a bite or two be consumed of certain foods that have been made


Thanks for sharing your reason for the rule. You clearly think that this is necessary? Asking to expand on the idea, not to interrogate you.

Again, I'll reiterate that I am assuming no real "force" as in "abuse" is happening by parents in this thread. I mentioned it because I think that parents who have this rule also have kids that are willing to oblige in the first place. Edited to clarify: parents who have *kept* this rule. I'm sure many of us started out thinking they would do this!


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pumabearclan said:


> SweetSilver prioritizes meals as a family bonding experience and I prioritize them differently (a matter of self-mastery and nourishment) and others have different approaches too. Different people have different values about it which is totally fine.


I do prioritize meals as a bonding experience, but unlike many families, I don't have a rule for sitting or even appearing at the table. I've tried that, but trying to make it work with unwilling children sort of spoiled the whole point. Instead, now I try to draw the kids in more to make meals nice. When they happen. We have a lot of nights that are just mutual snacking, like any busy family.

I agree that the OP's daughter might be rejecting a certain family experience, but it could be partly to do with the mom's attempts to have to conform to her expectations (many of which might be beyond her developmental control).


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

We do have an expectation that they try stuff, but there's no forcing involved. If they really don't want to it's not a big deal; no one gets 'in trouble'. It's ok with me if they spit the bite out (discreetly!) Or just touch the tip of their tongue to the new food. The expectation applies to the adults as well. Which can be scary when the 5yo wings it with a recipe sometimes .
I think it works well- they know I'm not likely to serve the item often if only, say, two of us like it, and all of us have discovered new food that we might not have touched otherwise. Not every time by any means, but that's ok.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

SweetSilver said:


> I'm sure many of us started out thinking they would do this!


Yes, I did think that I had a chance of at least 80% compliance. The 20% I was willing to walk away from.

The reason I did this is (to reiterate somewhat what I've posted earlier) because I really do think that being able to override your preferences once in a while or even often out of courtesy or a sense of adventure is a source of personal freedom and social tolerance, which I think is important for spiritual growth at any age.

The reason I thought I had a high chance of compliance is because my daughter was regularly exposed to a wide variety of culturally challenging experinces, from attempting to engage with a modern art exhibit to having polite meaningful conversations with adults and children in formal settings (many of whom were not American) to learning cooperative skills such as team tennis. I can't say that as a child she really *enjoyed* any of these things with abandon, but one thing I could say of her then is that I could take her anywhere with confidence. She often was able to have unique and enriching experiences by being able to truly be present with others and participate meaningfully in new experiences. Now she is a very self-possessed and cultured young lady who regularly surprises me in the delight she shows as she recalls eating her first snail or in describing to a friend how she bonded with an aging gentleman at age 8 over a Cy Twombly exhibit. I personally am constantly challenging myself and hope to do so as long as I am able; it is a family value here. It is broadening, deepening, and valuable for us to be open to all the fascination of human experience. I see no reason to decline an opportunity to be "elegant" (as I have been criticized for saying in this thread) because elegance is beauty, and beauty is joy (to us). For me, enabling my child to appreciate this was a role that I felt was important and I wanted to enable & broaden the basis for her opinion and choice about how to live in the world in her future.

I also wanted her to be able to decide to care for herself with food and lifestyle choices that may not be easy, in the event that she needed to comply with a restricted diet, or wanted to lose weight, or had the option of eating unpalatable food like raw liver in order to maximize her health. And indeed we choked down our raw liver together while she was in high school, with good cheer 

I hope this clarifies my point, and of course I want to state again that although all families are different, there is something each of has to offer through our experience and the challenges we face(d) in childrearing.


----------



## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

Yep force was the wrong word to use and was meant more in a manner of "expect." Tends to happen when I'm half asleep and post LOL. I do have this rule and realize a lot of people don't... I actually use to not have this rule myself! When they were smaller nothing was said about what they ate or didn't eat out of what was served. Now that they're helping meal plan they are expected to try the foods. Like others said it can be a tiny bite, served with condiments and if they don't like it when they try it they can spit it out. They help to choose the foods that we will cook and recipes we'll try though so yes they're expected to at least try it since it was bought and cooked at their request. Honestly to me it'd be the same as buying them an outfit they picked out only to never have them wear it once it was purchased or continuously re-enrolling them in an activity they said they wanted to do and now refuse to do. Why would I continue to do that? I wouldn't. To me it's about respect and being wise in your choices and using resources. If they want to spend resources and energy on something then they should put the effort into it whether it's trying the activity they requested or trying a bite of the meal they picked out. With multiple people in the house sometimes the things we try aren't the first pick of another person but trying it won't hurt and they don't know if they like it or not until they try it. In those meals it's respect for others. If I came to your house for dinner and you cooked something I'd never had I wouldn't sit there and not touch it. I'd try a bite and see what I thought about it out of respect for you and the time/money that you put into making this meal for me. I've never had trouble out of the kids with this but then again we discussed it as a family so they know why I'd like them to try the food(s) and they're okay with it. If it changes as they get older then our approach will change but so far they're perfectly okay with it. It's almost an adventure here... "hey mom! We never ate that before!" (and off I go to buy some horrible retched food they're going to hate so I cook it just for them to take one bite and then we eat pbj for dinner - don't laugh it's happened! LOL)


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

Puma's post above describes most of my motivation for getting my girls used to trying new foods and experiences. My older sibs were raised in a variety of different countries and cultures and I've always admired their ability to be plunked anywhere and adapt with grace and enthusiasm. One of the most useful life skills I can think of!


----------



## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

It's amazing all the different posts on food choices and kids but honestly although some of us seem to be a little different I don't see much that we don't all agree on. I could never see forcing a child (or anyone for that matter) to eat something that they truly hate or to expect someone to eat something that they really don't like on a regular basis either. I have certain food aversions that are very real and understand other people do even my children. I think part of my reason behind trying things though is personal experience. I didn't like spaghetti as a child although it's one of my favorites now but it was the way it was made. I used to think I hated potato salad until I tried my aunt's to be nice one day and loved it! She'd made it sans-onion and with less mustard than I'd usually seen it. It was amazing and is the recipe I now use. I hate, hate, would starve before I ate it... boiled cabbage! Or any boiled stringy greens for that matter. Funnily enough I love eggrolls with cabbage and even a sauteed cabbage&sausage dish but it's not slimy and stringy. It's not the cabbage I didn't like but the way it was cooked. Same for boiled spinach is a no but raw baby spinach is one of my favs in a salad. If I didn't try new things and variations of foods to see what I thought about them I wouldn't be able to enjoy some of the foods I now know I love. I also explained that to the kids when we started our "kids choose" meal planning to widen their palates. I think it was easier for them to understand also because of that. They love eggrolls and couldn't imagine someone not loving them so knowing mom would never have ate them if she hadn't tried them even if she didn't like cabbage boiled ... I think it helps them understand the reasoning in trying new things a little better.


----------



## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

stormborn said:


> Puma's post above describes most of my motivation for getting my girls used to trying new foods and experiences. My older sibs were raised in a variety of different countries and cultures and I've always admired their ability to be plunked anywhere and adapt with grace and enthusiasm. One of the most useful life skills I can think of!


I think it's fine to want that for you child and encourage that ability. Honestly, I don't know any parents that don't already do that. I think it's also important to accept when you just don't have that kid.

I was fed a very adventurous diet as a child and never enjoyed it. Found ways to hide food. Puked at the table a couple times despite trying my best to hold it in. I took many adult years off from these foods. Learned to enjoy a few Chinese and Thai food options on my OWN terms but an adventurous childhood in regards to food caused more distrust than flexibility. I look at my daughter who I fed very simply growing up and at 17, she'll eat most anything. She enjoys trying new things. She doesn't have the hang-ups I had. DS 13 may never get there. He's the one with the over-active gag reflex. He fights the gag reflex on most foods. With him, it's adventurous if he manages chunks of tomato on a pizza. He may never become a world eater but I'm pretty proud that he no longer sees food as the enemy.

Again, not bad to encourage your kid to try new things. When they are living on mashed potatoes or sneaking into the kitchen in the middle of the night because they are hungry, that's where I personally draw the line.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

We don't do the "one bite thing" because my DC doesn't have the personality for it. I think she feels put on the spot. The "just try it" thing is popular in my culture and extended family. One time I had to stand up to a table full of my inlaws and tell them to lay off. 

I wonder if that is some of the reaction here to members who say they have a "one bite rule". I'm guessing that if gentle parents are employing this with success that it is something that their own kids have taken to well. And that they have an emotionally healthy way of setting up these expectations. But many of us have probably seen a pretty botched job of it. 

There was a time where I did ask my DC to put a variety of foods on her plate when we were guests and at least try to taste everything. (small portions of things she was unsure about). This came with the absolute guarantee that I would never draw attention to her plate. I do think it had an impact and is part of what improved her variety. 

One of the things that resonated with me about PBC is that she joined her daughter in this adventure. I do think that makes a big difference. I have long thought that my DC would have been a less picky eater if her dad weren't modeling some pretty strong food preferences and avoidances. Fortunately she does seem to be coming out of it so I think there is a little of both nature and nurture going on here for her.

ETA: I was raised in a pretty plain jane life (hippie, but plain). I ate traditional American foods and never traveled. I'm super adventurous, travel, am interested in the arts, and enjoy (crave!) a wide variety of foods. My DC was born a traveler (Mexico & Japan {her first solid was eel in Tokyo!} by age 9 months and by the time she was 1.5 she lived overseas from where she was born). I would not say that she has an "adventurous spirit". I think that is a part of who she is right now. And that's OK.


----------



## KimPossible129 (Mar 9, 2007)

What an interesting thread, with a lot of emotion! 

Speaking of emotion, the main point I want to reiterate (as others have mentioned) is that food is a psychological and emotional thing. Eating disorders are rampant- both overheating and understating. People use food as a drug, or as an emotional tool. There is a lot of control involved with eating habits and disorders. They eat when they are depressed, they don't eat when they're anxious, and vice-versa. Much of our habits come directly from our upbringing. Some of us can move past the (perceived) horrid childhood days of being forced to eat, others cannot. 

I grew up in a house where I was labeled a picky eater, and ate like a bird. I never consumed large portions (except for carb-loaded breakfasts like French toast and pancakes). My dad would mock me for not even being able to finish my dessert. Dessert was a staple in my house, the driving force behind me eating the minimum required dinner. (So,some definitely had a sweet tooth, back then,mand unbelievably not a weight problem!). My mothers cooking was sub-par at best; bland and boring. Standard meat and potatoes type food, no flavor, no seasoning, nothing you'd see on any cooking show. I didn't despise (most Of) her food, it just wasn't worth having more than the minimum. But I ate it; I had no choice if I wanted to eat something. I never starved, and I can't imagine anyone on this board has children who have ever gone to bed hungry. I had no issues with food outside the home (a rare treat back then, as it was for most families in the 80s). I ate all standard kids' foods, but my mother did not cater to the children. 

Now, I have a much greater appreciation for food. And I'm fortunate that my 14 year old is slowly expanding her palate. She will try things. She won't like everything, but she's willing. She moans about certain things in certain days, but she eats it. (Truth be told, I moan about things my husband may cook if he is in dinner duty). 

But for years, she ate the standard kiddie food, and I didn't make a big deal about it. I was not into cooking during her early years, worked crazy hours, got divorced (and didn't feel the need to cook for just me and a little girl) on many days. Now I'm remarried, she doesn't eat like a toddler anymore, and things are good. 

Tonight, I made salmon and rice, which she likes. But claimed (while I was preparing) that the marinade was "disgusting". I called her out in her comment (as I do anytime she insults someone else's preferences). She ate literally every morsel of salmon and rice, with not a single complaint. 

Kids tastes evolve over time. Many kids are picky eaters, moreso now than a generation ago, IMO. I believe (most) kids will eat when they are hungry, assuming they are cognitively appropriate in their understanding of choices and consequences. I don't believe schedules need to be strictly enforced, but in a society where there are rules (lunch period is not when you want it, just like your lunch break as an adult is not always flexible), that can get tricky. A few years ago, I went away with my parents, daughter and husband). We had a late breakfast at the hotel,so my parents didn't feel hungry for lunch. But my husband, daughter and I wanted something. My mother was quite displeased at this, and made us feel guilty for having to stop and get something off a snack line (like a hot dog or pretzel). I was an adult in my 30s at the time. This goes back to the way one is raised, and the rules (if you eat now, you won't be gingery for supper- I heard this throughout my childhood). 

I work in a sleep away camp where the food is... Let's just say it's camp food  One dish, family style for lunch and dinner, with PB&J as an alternative. Breakfast always has the little boxes of cereal with the main dish. Not one child in all my years of working there has ever starved to death. Healthy kids with no serious food issues (as the nurse I am aware of anyone with issues, and we accommodate). To me, this is an early, valuable lesson that we don't always get to eat food that we absolutely love; sometimes we just eat to fill our tummies.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

KimPossible129 said:


> Speaking of emotion, the main point I want to reiterate (as others have mentioned) is that food is a psychological and emotional thing. Eating disorders are rampant- both overheating and understating. People use food as a drug, or as an emotional tool. There is a lot of control involved with eating habits and disorders. They eat when they are depressed, they don't eat when they're anxious, and vice-versa. Much of our habits come directly from our upbringing. Some of us can move past the (perceived) horrid childhood days of being forced to eat, others cannot.


My understanding of eating disorders is that it isn't really about food; as you say, food is used to address an emotional, psychological, or physiological problem. Childhood sexual abuse and rape frequently result in eating disorders as the victim attempts to regain control over bodily integrity. Food used as abuse can have the same effect as it becomes the goal of the victim to control their life using means within reach.

My feeling is that occasionally and kindly allowing a child to refuse to eat something or encouraging a taste of a new food isn't abuse and isn't likely to provoke an eating disordered response because the child's nourishment and free will are not being violated. An eating disorder would be more likely to arise, I think, to use mealtime as a chance to dredge up grievances, heckle and shame the child regarding any subject (such as school performance), argue, etc. - or to mistreat the child in that way at any time so that they turn to food to cope.

Although is seems to be a pretty common and natural fear that responding with any approach other than compliance to picky or uncooperative mealtimes will create an eating disorder in the child.

Apparantly picky eating a VERY big issue because I've looked around online as this thread has progressed and the internet is overflowing with frustrated parents who don't know what to do about it, how much to accomodate the picky eater in terms of what they eat, how long they eat, when they want to eat (refusing dinner & crying for snacks at bedtime is a common problem). Any parent would be likely to be annoyed and even offended by their child's behavior if the parent is putting resources and love into creating a positive environment and sustenance around food. It's almost like there are 3 issues here: nourishment, respecting the child, and receiving respect from the child. Getting children to respect the effort & food offered to them is probably the hardest part of this challenge.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

pumabearclan said:


> Any parent would be likely to be annoyed and even offended by their child's behavior if the parent is putting resources and love into creating a positive environment and sustenance around food..


If we think of food as love, it's even more important to me that my daughter gets what she feels she needs (within reason, of course). I'm somewhat annoyed by pickiness. I'm not offended.


----------



## KimPossible129 (Mar 9, 2007)

chickabiddy said:


> If we think of food as love, it's even more important to me that my daughter gets what she feels she needs (within reason, of course). I'm somewhat annoyed by pickiness. I'm not offended.


The problem is, as a species, we offend very easily. So, I'm sure many parents do. Think of all we do for our children, and how seemingly 'ungrateful'they act. We tend to forget that our children are CHILDREN, and are developmentally immature (even the smart ones).

Food as love is a big issue in our society as well. We like to associate food with positive feelings. It's supposed to be yummy. We eat like ravenous vultures on holidays and special occasions. A cakes for every occasion, let's go out to dinner to celebrate that my child is "student of the month" or got the game ball in T-ball. When someone dies, people inundate the grieving family with food of all kinds- sweets, fruits, and even home-cooked meals. It's comfort, when we don't know how else to comfort someone.

Regarding eating disorders- they can stem from 'regular', age-appropriate stress and anxiety. I don't know the percentages of those who stem from sexual or physical abuse, but I know plenty of children who have suffered with this, with no evidence of this happening. It is a very complicated process, that isn't just about the food. But, there are many children who have suffered with weight issues early on, who may have been exposed to negative comments from parents or peers that may have triggered the idea to binge and purge, or stop eating altogether. These comments may or may not be construed as abusive, and may have been entirely innocent. I have a family member who is seven and quite obese. Our family used to marvel at how great it was that she ate anything and everything as a baby. Now, I worry for her health and her self esteem.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I think what's rubbing me the wrong way is that the posters who advocate for forcing/encouraging/whatever kids to eat everything have acknowledged that their kids don't seem to really mind doing so. True pickiness and food aversions are not spoiled-bratness or a power play: they are real and they can actually cause great anxiety for kids. I am not a pushover parent by any means, but I respect that food IS a big deal to my daughter.

My daughter potty-learned in five minutes. She announced that she wanted to use the big potty, did so, and never needed a diaper again. I got lucky. I don't go on potty-learning threads to discuss how my parenting philosophy was responsible for that.

I feel frustrated here because the implications are that if mothers do things right, kids won't be picky. I did everything "right", including many of the tactics described in this thread. My kid is still picky and neither she nor I are happy about it.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

chickabiddy said:


> I think what's rubbing me the wrong way is that the posters who advocate for forcing/encouraging/whatever kids to eat everything have acknowledged that their kids don't seem to really mind doing so. True pickiness and food aversions are not spoiled-bratness or a power play: they are real and they can actually cause great anxiety for kids. I am not a pushover parent by any means, but I respect that food IS a big deal to my daughter.


I'm not sure if I'm one of these parents or not. My DC is picky. Not to the extent that some have described (I don't think she has gagged at the sight of another person's food, for instance) but she was very picky for many, many years.

Like most of us, I tried a lot of things. Sometimes I had to back all the way off but other times I managed to catch her in a phase where she was able to expand her palate.

Something that you touched on is that the true work of expanding a picky palate is on the person eating. My own child could only be encouraged to do these things when she herself was inspired to do so. Often out of boredom for what she liked and as she got older out of the stress associated with being a guest and not being open enough to foods offered her.

One other thing that got her to really expand her palate in later years was the smell of food. Someone mentioned Shrimp Creole. That was cooking in my house recently. DC does not like fish but was inspired to try some over rice because of the smell. :grin:


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I override my personal aversions if I feel there is a benefit to my health or my relationships in doing so. So does my daughter as far as I can see. If I was to chew up several bites of raw liver or crickets (yes, I've been served crickets) I would probably actually gag. I would have an extraordinarily hard time be able to stay nourished in an environment where crickets and raw liver (among other things) were regularly on the menu. When we travel we take this into consideration. At home we take this into consideration. But gagging over a gulp of one or two crickets, or goat, or collard greens, or tripe, or chicken, or other legitimate nourishing foods is something I don't want for me and didn't want for my child. However I'm not beyond accepting that after several tries over several years a person will know his/her limits. 

I think that food does become an issue of power play for children; it's a reliable daily staging ground for testing independence. "Chicken is boring" as per the OP and "sloppy joes OK but hamburger (with dressing?) not OK" looks to me like a situation that requires some finesse and kind direction from the parents so that the 9-yr-old can accept and negotiate the complexity of food and meals in the family and beyond. It doesn't look to me like a critical food aversion. 

It may be that the phase of independence and self-definition that the OP's 9-yr-old seems (to me) to be in, as hurtful and confusing as it may be, could be viewed as just that - a phase, so maybe any parent facing this can have plenty of leftovers and cold cuts on hand for awhile until it has been determined what is actually going on. And could the OP separate her desire to cultivate her culinary "ambitions" (by a 9-yr-old's standards) into making meals for her husband and friends on "adult night" for the time being. But I don't think by any means that making 2+ meals a night or serving the entire family only what one member prefers is reasonable. 

80% compliance didn't mean that we were free from seeing our daughter refuse to eat dinner, dawdle & whine over plates, or throw away nutritious school lunches carefully packed. The 20% tolerance was hard for me because of the care and planning I put into it. But learning to respect my child's choices, even throwing away cheese because it had a rind and she and her friends thought it looked "gross," was a factor in how I approached this issue. Sometimes I would cut off the rind, other times I would advise her to cut off the rind or eat around it if she thought it was such a problem. Humor and and a mommy-eyeroll helped diffuse the issue. But I didn't stop serving the family aged cheese with a rind or giving it to her in lunch occasionally. 

Maybe something to consider here is how much rejection & waste we will tolerate? 20% (me) - or more or less? My ideal would be 0% rejection & waste but kids aren't like that and even adults can't always meet their own standards sometimes.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

pumabearclan said:


> My understanding of eating disorders is that it isn't really about food; as you say, food is used to address an emotional, psychological, or physiological problem...... Getting children to respect the effort & food offered to them is probably the hardest part of this challenge.


I know a lot of adults who have issues with food who wouldn't qualify as having an eating disorder. My earlier example of a weight watchers meeting, for example. You believe that screwing this issue up enough to cause real damage is nearly impossible, but I disagree. Our daughters (and to a lesser extent our sons) will be hit with thousands and thousands of messages and images about food, eating, and what their bodies are supposed to be like. We need to get our input spot on as much of the time as possible in hopes of counteracting that.

But I also wonder how old your kid(s) are. Do you have adolescent or teen kids? Much of what is being posted here is appropriate for 4 year old, not a teen. "Getting kids to respect the food and effort" just isn't the hardest part of the challenge from where I am. "Eat what I put in front of you, at least one bite because I made it with love" makes little sense for a small child with real food aversions, and absolutely none for adolescent or teen.



pumabearclan said:


> Maybe something to consider here is how much rejection & waste we will tolerate? 20% (me) - or more or less? My ideal would be 0% rejection & waste but kids aren't like that and even adults can't always meet their own standards sometimes.


I see zero rejection and waste as truly unhealthy. That's who ends up in weight watcher meetings. Eating all the food in front of you isn't listening to your body.

Earlier in this thread I listed solid steps to deal with food in what I see as positive, emotionally healthy way. Weirdly, no one has commented on it or quoted it. Both of my kids now prepare dinner for the whole family one night a week. They both know how to prepare several easy things that they like. They both eat a reasonably healthy and balanced diet, and I haven't acted as a short order cook since they were about 5.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi Linda, my daughter is in her late 20s now. I had the pretty much the same approach regarding food from her first solid food to the present. I was particularly careful to give this issue forethought and be as consistent as possible because of my bad food experience in my childhood. 

I expected more respect from my daughter as she got older, not less, which I felt was age-appropriate. I woudn't expect as much consideration from a 4-yr-old as I would from a teen. But perhaps what you say is right for you and that's OK with me. 

If a person requests or receives modest portions including a "bite to be polite," then I see little need for waste. Portion servings is a good point and I'm glad you brought it up. Perhaps many children are unwittingly served more than they can or care to eat. 

I do disagree that there is not a benefit to taking a bite to show appreciation for the effort and care made by the "chef." One bite, I feel, does not cause a person to be overweight. For example, I don't think I would end up overweight by eating the occasional cricket or spoonful Barefoot Contessa lentil salad  simply to explore and appreciate the effort and offering of the culture or person who prepared it. I don't think that this is the source of problems with being overweight, but I don't claim to be an expert on the matter and I'm sure that it is different for different people. 

I wish you would refrain from what I see as "picking on" me because it's hurtful and I think does not help the discussion. For example, you seem to be putting "words in my mouth" by drawing personally "colored" interpretations. I hope I've been clear in my posts and I've made a lot of them on this thread  I'm sorry that I "snapped" at you earlier and I hope we can let it go now. 

I agree without reservation that food messages in our culture are outrageous and damaging. I'm thrilled that so many moms are contributing to this discussion so that we can restore some sanity to this issue!


----------



## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> We don't do the "one bite thing" because my DC doesn't have the personality for it. I think she feels put on the spot. The "just try it" thing is popular in my culture and extended family. One time I had to stand up to a table full of my inlaws and tell them to lay off.
> 
> I wonder if that is some of the reaction here to members who say they have a "one bite rule". I'm guessing that if gentle parents are employing this with success that it is something that their own kids have taken to well. And that they have an emotionally healthy way of setting up these expectations. But many of us have probably seen a pretty botched job of it.


I've definitely seen the botched job of the one bite rule. It's pretty common where I'm from although I've seen many people that don't parent in a way I would in that manner as well as other areas. I guess I've been lucky that my kids have taken well to it. I think it's only really been successful because I've worked with their own individual personalities to determine how they'd be receptive and to find the best approach for food with them. I have had to take a different approach with each of them though even though they're all my kids raised in the same house. It really does just depend on the kid's personality to find the right approach to dealing with food.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm sorry, but even as an adult I often don't take one bite. I'm a fairly adventurous eater. I like trying things. But I feel no obligation whatsoever to take one bite. If someone said "What do you this of this?" I'll try a bite. But, no. I have no problem not taking a dish onto my plate, tasting every food on my plate or eating everything on my plate. If I want to leave the swollen raisins from the curry on my plate I will. If I want to ignore something completely I will. 

It's not polite for adults to call each other on what they are or aren't doing with their plates. Hard to model that kind of behavior when parents don't give their kids the same chance.


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Hopefully no one that you are eating with would be impolite enough to draw attention to your doing these things. However they may (or may not) feel that you are being impolite by doing these things. It matters to some adults and apparently doesn't matter to others. We inadvertantly rub one another the wrong way sometimes no matter how careful we are with our manners. I hope that people would be gracious with one another in these situations.

Modeling behavior to our children is a good point. The original post was about the 9yr-old whose behavior was setting herself apart from her family mealtimes. If you feel criticised because our expectations at the table are different then I'm sorry. I haven't felt teamed up on or criticised (except when and why I said so) by this discussion and wouldn't want others to feel that way.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

SweetSilver said:


> It's not polite for adults to call each other on what they are or aren't doing with their plates. Hard to model that kind of behavior when parents don't give their kids the same chance.


When my first child was young I found that comparisons to how I treat adults to not be all that useful in terms of how to relate to my young child. Now that I have an almost teen, I find myself increasingly using that as a guide. I consider it impolite to comment on an adult's plate other than to ask someone if they are finished or offer them another serving. That is something I have had to be protective of my own child about with my inlaws (as I said up thread). I thought the comparison of how my DH was treated (never a mention of his picky preferences) compared to my child was striking.

OTOH, I don't feel responsible for any adult's nutrition and I do with my kids. And, although I don't concern myself with my DH's diet for nutrition reasons, my DH and I share a food budget. So, the relationship to what people eat in a shared household does feel a little more complicated an nuanced than manners at a party.

I think I probably fall somewhere in the middle of this discussion. I do not focus on "one bite" and I would never send a child to be hungry but I have absolutely had times where discussions about food helped my DC overcome some aversions by encouraging her to try things.

On the subject of crickets. OP, I know this is not the healthiest option but chicken, like crickets, can be less less off putting when deep fried. ;-) Breaded and pan-fried has been a good option for my kids in terms of introducing a new food.

I distinctly remember being a young child (very picky about vegetables) falling in love with tempura (after being encouraged to try it). *Acknowledging that I had milder aversions than some.

:grin:


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

pumabearclan said:


> Hopefully no one that you are eating with would be impolite enough to draw attention to your doing these things.


I know people who would be wounded if I didn't eat everything, but those people I know live for pleasing people and feel personally responsible for 100% of my happiness at mealtime and any time. (I cannot even discuss food *at any time* with MIL anymore for fear of wounding her--she really needs to please people.) But I don't know of anyone who would be offended because they thought it was impolite or rude.


----------



## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

SweetSilver said:


> I'm sorry, but even as an adult I often don't take one bite. I'm a fairly adventurous eater. I like trying things. But I feel no obligation whatsoever to take one bite. If someone said "What do you this of this?" I'll try a bite. But, no. I have no problem not taking a dish onto my plate, tasting every food on my plate or eating everything on my plate. If I want to leave the swollen raisins from the curry on my plate I will. If I want to ignore something completely I will.
> 
> It's not polite for adults to call each other on what they are or aren't doing with their plates. Hard to model that kind of behavior when parents don't give their kids the same chance.


I have been following this thread with interest. It has deviated a lot from the original question but it really has made me think about how I eat and my children eat. I do agree that, while we find it rude to call out adults on not taking a bite, we seem to have no problem asking children to try one bite. This might be because children have less experience eating a food and so are likely to have not tried it before, or maybe they tried it years ago and their palate may have changed. 
Your comment, Sweet Silver, made me think about what I might do as an adult if I was in a situation where I didn't like something. But really, there is not much that I truly hate. There are things I would prefer not to eat but I'm not going to gag or throw up. If I'm at a buffet or a potluck at a friend's house, I don't feel obligated to eat everything. I mean, wow, that could be potentially eating more food than I have room in my stomach to eat. However, if I go to a friend's house for dinner and they serve something that isn't my favorite, I'll eat some out of politeness. I'll even take a small helping of a side dish I don't care for and eat it because it's polite. I know no one will call me out if I don't, but it just seems, I dunno, right to me to try it. I went to a friend's house and she served a main dish containing copious amounts of sour cream, an ingredient I really do not care for. I did tell her that sour cream was not my favorite thing in the world and she laughed, did not take offense and said I should try it this way, it was good. Since we were at her house, it was polite and I ate it. And it was not awful. It was pretty good, but too rich for me and I did not take seconds. And I recreated the recipe at home using like a 1/4 of the amount of sour cream and loved the recipe and make my adapted version regularly. If I hadn't tried it because I don't care for sour cream, I probably would have hurt my friend's feelings and I wouldn't have known that I could really love the recipe with modification. At a restaurant, I wouldn't have ordered it... and, in the case of swollen raisins, I probably would have ordered the dish without raisins.

That is what I try to model to my children... if someone serves us something directly, we should be polite and eat a little of it. Just because they don't like something doesn't mean it will hurt them to be polite in company. If something is served buffet style, they do not have to eat everything, though if I really enjoy a side dish I try, I may say "Hey, this this really good... you guys should try a bite of it, you might like it!" Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. No biggie. I would probably say the same thing to my husband "omg, you should try the seaweed salad! It's pretty tasty!"

I think most of this thread has depended on the personality of the child. Some children will try things, some won't. We're sharing experiences from what our children will tolerate. My children will tolerate being asked to try something. And they will tolerate eating a dish they don't care for once in a while because someone else likes it (like me). And I am trying to teach my children the difference between something being truly intolerable (like- they are incapable of eating that food because they will gag or throw up) and something being "not their favorite". My son puts mayonnaise on his burger... to me, that is intolerable and I will gag if I do that. I have actually made myself something else for dinner when my husband brought us home burgers and they accidentally put mayo on mine. Yuck, I can't even wipe it off and eat it. The fact that mayo touched my burger just grosses me out. So I guess I have a bit aversion to mayo on sandwiches. So it happens to all of us. Ketchup, on the other hand, I don't like but it's tolerable. I would eat the burger with ketchup rather than make something else.

This has been an interesting thread!


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> On the subject of crickets. OP, I know this is not the healthiest option but chicken, like crickets, can be less less off putting when deep fried. ;-) Breaded and pan-fried has been a good option for my kids in terms of introducing a new food.


HAH, yes, they were deep fried. At first I wasn't even sure what they were. Apparently insects and grubs are super-nutritious, and so are earthworms (never ate those). My great grandmother loved chocolate covered ants and always had some out when we visited. I recall being so fascinated that I didn't seem to care that they were bugs. Changing up a recipe is really a good idea!


----------



## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

pumabearclan said:


> HAH, yes, they were deep fried. At first I wasn't even sure what they were. Apparently insects and grubs are super-nutritious, and so are earthworms (never ate those). My great grandmother loved chocolate covered ants and always had some out when we visited. I recall being so fascinated that I didn't seem to care that they were bugs. Changing up a recipe is really a good idea!


On a whim, once, I bought the kids chocolate covered bugs and mexican spiced meal worms- I think thy were meal worms-from some touristy place we were visiting. I have video of the kids and their friends trying them. DD2 is hilarious. She did not like the chocolate covered bugs but she tried a mexican spiced bug and exclaimed "These are great!" and then stole the package from her brother (who had not liked them at all) and proceeded to eat the whole package and was bummed I hadn't bought more. I joked I was going to make them worm tacos for dinner some night and DD2 was a-ok with that. heehee


----------



## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

SweetSilver said:


> I know people who would be wounded if I didn't eat everything, but those people I know live for pleasing people and feel personally responsible for 100% of my happiness at mealtime and any time. (I cannot even discuss food *at any time* with MIL anymore for fear of wounding her--she really needs to please people.) But I don't know of anyone who would be offended because they thought it was impolite or rude.


It's likely that people are much more relaxed about this than they used to be. I'm a bit of a stickler for manners since we are often among people for whom that is important and we travel a lot. I noticed that table manners seem very ritualized in Japan, for example. I just felt that it was better to relax the standard of table manners when possible rather than to flounder when they are expected. Obviously there are much greater "transgressions" than pushing aside a few raisins. But since we are talking about what skills and attitudes we would like to pass on to our kids I just thought I'd mention it. Thanks for being good-natured about this, it's getting to be a very thorough and enlightening discussion!


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

pumabearclan said:


> I just felt that it was better to relax the standard of table manners when possible rather than to flounder when they are expected.


We are doing the opposite because we live a super relaxed lifestyle. I do understand the idea of teaching for more formal manners first and then educating when a more relaxed set is welcome but that didn't make any sense for us. When DC got old enough to really have expectations for table manners, we were no longer able to travel. Boohoo!

I do find that my DC, though, seems to just magically know when certain things are expected. She sits with her knees up at our table (something that kind of bugs me but that I let go in favor of her knowing that I have perspective about behavior) but she has ever done that anywhere else as far as I know.

She also has a tendency to pick apart her meal if it's something that she's still learning to appreciate. That is a compromise that I think has actually HELPED her become a more adventitious eater. There are probably people who may get bent out of shape about that. But, I suppose I think that's their problem. ;-) She does do it much more discretely in public (and probably not at all in certain settings). Again, not from me telling her but just from an awareness of what is expected/polite.

In manners I think it's best to look at the deeper value of why we have these things set in the first place. 
I agree that pushing aside some raisins (or in my case peas) is just a small, small thing. If it makes the difference to the eater between enjoying the meal, my vote would be that doing that small thing is well within the realm of reasonable.

Snails... I also wanted to mention that as a young adult I decided that I would like snails. I love the garlic butter snails and the dishes were just so great AND snails went along with lovely meals that I wanted to enjoy in their fullest. I liked snails for like 5 years until one day I had one in my mouth and just couldn't swallow it. When asked now I say, "I am no longer pretending to like snails."

I think with kids we may see a bit of that, which if not understood well, can be VERY frustrating to the house cook. A child who manages to suffer through something for a while and then just decides once (and for a while) that they really don't like something can look like a wishy-washy-not-truly-picky eater. Which isn't fair -- because they were really giving it a go.

Or, in the case of a lot of toddlers I know, they TRULY loved something in toddlerhood but then something changes. I eat artichokes frequently. My older child liked them as a toddler but not for many many years. She likes them again now at 12 (I never asked her to try them - maybe I'm greedy). She just took a leaf one day a year or so ago and then continued to do so, gradually eating more and more. My toddler liked them from about 1 year - 2 years old and now refuses any offer. I assume she will come around at some point but if she doesn't - that's more me. ;-)


----------



## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I think it is a respect issue. I would never make my husband eat something that he just doesn't like. My daughter really disliked mushrooms growing up. I didn't make her eat them. She now likes them. If I forced it, I doubt she would like them now. My other daughter doesn't like anything fish. I still make it and ask her to try it if I have prepared it differently just in case she likes it. There will be other food served with it so she can have that. As long as my children are eating nutritiously, I don't mind if they skip something.
My son is a completely different story. I was that mom that said my children will eat what I give them. That changed with him. He cannot eat a noodle. Any kind of noodle makes him gag. He has tears streaming down his face trying to get noodles down. He won't eat most foods and I respect that. He is free to make his own or I try to make what he likes sometimes. It is very exciting when he will eat something suddenly. He would normally only eat flat eggs. I always just made his flat (like an omelette). One time I was giving the kids hard boiled and he asked why he can't have his that way. I made them that way and he ate them. Inside I was jumping for joy. His aversions are real. He is not trying to control me and be spoiled. It shows I respect who he is and what goes into his body. The foods he eats continues to grow. I can tell the difference between him just not wanting to eat something (like lettuce or raw carrots) or noodles.


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

Thinking about this thread at at potluck last night...I think allergies and intolerences will make a whole new sense of what is polite at the table for my kids' generation. With so many more people allergic &/or adhering to a certain eating plan there isn't the "picky" stigma attached to bringing your own food to a gathering or refusing foods that I remember from my childhood. At least in our crowd (inlaws excepted!) no one thinks anything of it anymore.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

We have one meal. They can eat it or not eat it, but that's the meal, period. I don't serve things I know people hate. There are always a variety of side dishes, including things like rice, pasta or bread, so no one has to starve. We don't have any sensory issues. 

They are teenagers now and we've escaped pretty drama-free, and they turned out pretty good about eating a variety of foods.


----------



## WallaWallaMamma (Dec 14, 2013)

chickabiddy said:


> This will not "wipe out picky eating" or food aversions. It will make kids angry and resentful and make food a power struggle. It's easy when you have a 1yo; much more complicated when your child is aware that there are alternatives.


Yeah, my eldest has always been very, very picky (and not a big eater, anyhow) so our one-meal rule has not made her more likely to try something (nor has my admonition that some families can't afford to eat three meals per day, and she should appreciate food security--eye roll). I try to offer a simple side (veggie sticks, beans etc.) for everyone that I know she will like, too. It is frustrating, but what would parenthood be without power struggles and compromise??


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

my step father was the type who would force me to eat whatever was on my plate even if I don't like it even if I was gagging and crying it took me 3 hours power struggle for him. As an adult I want to eat what I want to eat I give my children the same respect we have a lot of whole foods in the house they like, and they eat when they want and what they want.

my teenager usually cooks for himself unless there's something he wants me to make it's a little more complicated when I go grocery shopping I get the kids input on what I'm going to buy. I'm usually on some kind of diet that restricts a lot of what I can eat, th is a vegetarian as well. we don't force the kids to be vegetarian and if I make something big like a big pot of 2 or something like that the kids can choose to eat it or not and they don't want to taste it then they won't. To me eating is about healing the body and has nothing to do with togetherness or teaching the kids respect. Even as an adult if I don't want to eat something then I won't. if I go to somebody's house for dinner and they're serving stuff that I wouldn't eat then I'm not going to eat it.


----------



## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

I make three meals per day, plus snacks (the older ones know what they can pick for snacks).

None of us have food allergies/sensitivities.

I am a good cook, (it's something I enjoy and have spent years getting better at) I cook from scratch, and do not make anything odd ball that I would think children wouldn't like. We all eat 3 meals per day together (with the exception of the oldest if he's working, or an occasional child at a friend/family members home). 

If they want to eat, they will eat what I make. When my husband and I got married he was quite picky because his mother was a lousy cook and they ate a lot of pre-made stuff as standard fare: hot dogs, etc.

I have one picky eater, and she still eats if she wants to not go hungry. She has really broadened her likes as a result. There is no worry that she will starve, as she will have the opportunity for a fruit/veggie/protein snack at some point in the near future, and chances are the next meal will be something she will eat. We all have our likes/dislikes as well as times when we are hungrier than others or when things sound good or not, so no skin of my nose if she wants to eat carrots with us at dinner, but skip something else. I ensure she is taking in enough nutrients, and she's a great weight.

There are too many people in this house to cater to everyone specifically, but each week I do try to make something specific that each child and my husband has as a favorite. I like to bless them and make them feel loved. My children all eat healthfully, and we have no exclusions in moderation. Since they've been used to it since they first start table foods, they love things that a lot of children we know won't touch: meat, egg dishes, homemade soups and stews, lentils, salads, kefir, kombucha, and they really miss homemade bread when it's too warm to bake. I love that I'm nourishing them, teaching them about nutrition, and imparting memories of the food and mealtimes we share together!

It works really well for us.


----------

