# Food Elitist?



## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Well, I didn't want to highjack another thread. So I thought I should start another. I also want to say to the OP of other thread, I mean not disrespect. But in a effort to understand and perhaps encourage we share instead of passing judgement. Ok get to the point.
I try my best to have my family eat well. An we are on a thin thin budget. I got the feeling of almost an elitist attitude towards those who do not eat totally organic or shop exclusively at those kinds of stores. I live near whole foods, but shopping there blows my budget out of the water.
I can't be the only one with financial challenges to eating organic. Is there an elitist attitude about how we eat, is this in my head? The judgement seems to come so quick towards those who don't. Almost a belittling for those who don't by all the "right foods" and receive public assistance.
By the way, if this is all imagined and in my head people help me out. Tell me your secrets to affordable organic eating
Really lets discuss this


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## Live~Laugh~Love (Dec 21, 2004)

I cant afford to buy all organic either, but I feel the same too


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't care what other people think about what I eat or how I pay for it. That's their problem, not mine.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

In this society we have confused food and sex with sin, money and health with virtue. Sad but true. The results? Culturally pandemic neurosis on those topics.

It's totally possible to eat well without eating organic. I pretty much ignore organic on most things and focus on having lots of diverse veggies, protein, and fiber. Organic is nice but it's really not the most important factor.


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## BurgundyElephant (Feb 17, 2006)

One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food. Eat what is in season, stock up when it's on sale, utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.

We eat primarily organic... but mainly because my kids are on Feingold. We don't eat fast food. My kids have also been healthier this year than they were before. We've had no Doctor's appointments for colds or other illnesses, which means I am saving money there. I spend more on food, of course, but not that much more.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

Quote:

One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food. Eat what is in season, stock up when it's on sale, utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.
I suppose that's easy to say if you live near a store that actually sells organic. Or if you have a big freezer or a food dehydrator. Not everyone is in that situation.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Burgundy I hear you. But we are hardly ever in the doctor's office. Fortunately, my children have never had ear infections or diaper rashes. Our Ped always comments that she only see's us once a year for well child visits. So no money saved there.
No fast food because I don't have the money for the extra's.
Yes, my freezer is full. but I canlt keep things frozen longer than three months. Beyond that it creeps me out (my own issues there).


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## Guava~Lush (Aug 9, 2003)

Because im on an island, the cost of food here is way expensive too.

I went to a farmers market here thinking I was getting some nice organic fruits and veggies and most of it was shipped over food from the mainland, not organic either.

I cant eat organic all the time. I know its better to choose the organic fruits and veggies though, but I cant do that all the time.

I love it when I get a bag of avocados or limes or mangos from someones tree! That's about as organic in the fruits/veggies I can get!









BUT, something deep inside of me refuses to buy non health food store bought peanut butter. Even one week when we were really poor and dh said get peanut butter-THE CHEAP STUFF! I just couldnt do it! Im a peanut butter elitist!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Guava~Lush* 
BUT, something deep inside of me refuses to buy non health food store bought peanut butter. Even one week when we were really poor and dh said get peanut butter-THE CHEAP STUFF! I just couldnt do it! Im a peanut butter elitist!

What's the advantage to health food store peanut butter? I buy the peanuts only kind at the grocery store - is there a step up from that?


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## Guava~Lush (Aug 9, 2003)

I guess I should rephrase.

I will buy peanut butter from the grocery store sometimes, if its the natural ones. NOT the Jif's or Peter Pans, etc..
Sometimes, the health food store PB is cheaper than the Safeway or Foodland with the same natural brand.

I really need to learn to make my own peanut butter. 1 jar only lasts about 4-5 days.


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## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

I feel very sympathetic towards people that truly cannot afford to pay extra for organic food. I have been very poor in my own life in the past, to the point of having to choose between feeding my family or putting gas in the car to get to work the next day. So to anyone that is trying to make the op or anyone else feel guilty about the choices they make concerning food, wood or plastic toys or any other choice-back off!! It would be completely a surprise to meet anyone on this forum who doesn't have the best interests of their family, their children at heart. What else in the world would keep them coming back here to be subjected to the elitist and judgemental attitudes found within? Having said that, in all sincerity, I would like to explain why I buy organic whenever possible and support local Farmer's market. Besides the fact that the family is much more healthy in every way since we made the switch to organic, by changing our buying habits and supporting the small organic farmers, it is actually bringing the price of organic down for everyone.
30 years ago when organic food just came onto my radar, it was prohibitively expensive and hard to come by. Because of increased demand, the price of organic goods have come way down and availability has increased tremendously. Back then, you never saw organic for sale in the local market, like you do now. You had to go expensive "health food" stores and select from crummy looking, dried out vegetables and stale, inferior goods. Because the demand for organic has grown so much as people have become more aware of the downside of pesticides, gmo's and other modern methods of food production, the selection, quality and affordability of organic has expanded as a result. So part of that attitude you feel coming from an "elitist" is just the desire to support this process. The more people that purchase organic, the cheaper it becomes for everyone. HTH.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BurgundyElephant* 
One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food.

If that's the case I won't be eating very many different types of vegetables. And I'll be eating the standard Northern European poor person's diet of pickled cabbage, beet soup, and potatos all winter.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I try to buy from farmers markets and I'd love to find a proper butcher. Buying locally is actually more important to me that buying organic, since frankly, buying non-organic locally is often better for the environment (and is often fresher) than buying organic that was airfreighted or shipped in.

That said, the cheap cost of food in this country is a huge reason for its wealth. I have lived in Africa. I have worked on nutrition projects in environments where fresh fruits and veg were only seasonally available and where meat was a once in a while treat. Sorry, I value all food now, after seeing the malnutrition which comes from the high cost of food.

I am not anti-organic - I personally think organic milk and eggs taste better than non-organic. But I really hate the self-righteousness that sometimes folks get about organic. And since everything is turning organic (I saw Organic Lucky charms at the grocery store to day...not kidding), it is becoming mainstream, and therefore more affordable to the masses.

Siobhan


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.










We live in a small (getting smaller everyday) 2 bedroom aprtment that costs 2 of my Dh's paychecks. the refrigerator came with the place and that freezzer can only hold just so much. they are small appliances. As for the food dehydrator...now where did I put that?









Anyway... I have a little list of fruits and vegies that best bought organic. I try to get things like apples at Whole foods and avocadoes and the snacky stuff so we don't get the trans fat.

My kids eat fruits and veggies (ok my 18 mos only eat melon) and most of our food comes Shop rite. I buy organic milk at whle foods b/c it is actually cheper than shop rite. I use coupons and every week keep my food bill close to 100 dollars. we can not afford to buy eerything organic so I try to make the organic stuff really count.


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## Aka mommy (Feb 25, 2005)

Im torn on this subject. We have a budget and I try to stick to that, so i do understand living within ones means. But the other side of me values the content of organic milk when my 2 girls and dh go through about 5 gallons in 1 week. If it isnt organic I fear the hormones and extras that are going into their bodies, but then the money side hits me. And who wants to pay $5.99 for 1 gallon of milk? Thats $1,557.40 a year on just milk alone.

I learned that certified organic farms are our best friends. You can get a whole box of organic veggies and fruits for about $19 that lasts almost 2 weeks. And they come to my door. Also farmer's markets would be a goldmine, IF i had the time to visit them on weekends.

I also wonder where people who are so snarky about organic foods buy from? If they are just buying it from Raley's or Safeway where they are sitting right next to the nonorganic produce, whats the point? REcent studies have shown that all the fertilizers and harmful chemicals on those products get onto the organic produce, and in theory defeats the whole purpose. They just passed a new law here in cali that organic and nonorganic MUST be seperated.

I think what we do is we decide whats most important to us. What do we consume the most of? Milk, chicken, eggs, cheese and beans. Therefor those are the items we buy organic. Everything else besides syrup and peanut butter, we buy from the normal store.

Also another thought on the organic debate. To be deemed organic, doesnt mean it is organically grown to the standards you would expect. It is becoming easier and easier to label items as organic. Some growers are now doing both. Sections of organic and others non, them shipping them all in together. But as long as their growing standards are met, they can slap onthe label of organic.

I don't know. In theory i understand the importance. And i really hope that sometime soon organic foods are almost comparable to nonorganics.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BurgundyElephant* 
One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food. Eat what is in season, stock up when it's on sale, utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.

Organic apples and lettuce may or may not be more expensive.

Organic dairy and meats are definitely more expensive. A conventional supermarket and a Whole Foods market are both an equal distance from my house; I see the difference. The conventional store has its own line of organic products, which, although cheaper than "name brand" products, are still more expensive than regular stuff.


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## mamameg (Feb 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
If that's the case I won't be eating very many different types of vegetables. And I'll be eating the standard Northern European poor person's diet of pickled cabbage, beet soup, and potatos all winter.









I think it's more important to eat a balanced, varied diet than to eat all organic. I try to buy locally grown organic food, but it's not always the best variety depending on the season.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

It's possible around here at least to get hormone-free milk and veggie-fed eggs without spending the $5 on organic brands, fwiw. Many of the local producers have gone hormone-free due to popular demand. They don't pay the extra for certification though so you just have to call around and find out.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Another bit of thought I want to interject is not just the organic debate, but why so much judgement towards those who don't.
I buy organic when I can afford to and I search for deals on organic milk and meats without hormones. But I have to add as my children get older their appetites are larger. My 13 stands 5'7" and weighs 115. So no he's not over weight none of my children for that matter. In fact he eats to a point that defies logic. Don't worry, ped says he is totally healthy.
I make lunch for my children to take to school everyday. They are not allowed to bring chocolate, candy or any sugary foods so I have to be creative.
Perhaps, I happen to be where food is over priced, but there is no price break here and I average $50and up in coupons. I go to Farmer's Markets. Spin it any way you please its a stretch for us to eat this way. We live in a country (no I am not bashing the USA) where many people can barely make a living wage to make ends meet. I find it worse to think someone would dare say they are less caring for their family because of their food choices. Maybe they are, but what gives another the right to judge?
Did any of you watch the Oprah show where poor families in the mountains of Tenn. were interviewed. People do what they have to do to survive. And those who are blessed with choices be grateful. perhaps you might be one katrina away from disaster. Suppose you needed assistance? Perhaps cashiers and other would judge you for spending so much on higher priced foods when they can barely make it. This judging thing just stinks all around.
And I suppose my statements are judging the judgers


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Everywhere we have lived we have joined co-ops to get organic/pesticide-free or local produce at a reduced rate. We've also bought together with other families when it wasn't available locally.


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## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Yinsum-







Please know that some people are so insecure, that they would use anything to make themseves feel superior and that would include food choices. Please use your ignore feature if you find that someone here at MDC is trying to make you feel bad about your situation or any choices that you make on behalf of your family's wellbeing.


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

My family goes through 4 to 5 gallons of milk per week. The only way that I can see to have organic is to buy our own cow. Seriously. We've talked about it. We have some propery about 10 minutes away, but even that is kind of nuts to think about driving over there twice a day to milk a cow. So we've decided to just consider it again when and if we build on the property.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

We eat mostly organic and are on a very tight budget. I have had to make choices to eat this way, but so far, it is working for us. Here's what we do:

First, I will be honest and admit that we buy a good many of our groceries at Walmart. They sell a lot of the organic food that we consider staples. (peanut butter, milk, cheese, cereal, sugar, flour, yogurt etc). Ethically, I am appalled by Walmart. I do not buy clothes, toys or household goods there. But what physically goes into my family's bodies (and their subsequent health) is more important to me than the working conditions of strangers. I feel guilty about it, but that's where we are right now.

The groceries that I cannot get at Walmart, I get either at Whole Foods or Trader Joe's. Trader Joes is cheaper, so we go there first, but their produce is changable and they sometimes understock things. Between those two stores, we pick up supplemental things (eggs, crackers, soups, special treats like ice cream, snacks for DD etc).

We are lucky enough to have a local farmer's market that is open most of the year. We go early on weekday mornings and buy produce. I cook green beans, peas and other veggies from scratch instead of from a can or frozen package. Same with fruit whenever possible. We save a ton of money that way. When produce is out of season locally though, I am at the mercy of the grocery stores. I buy organic when I can afford it and conventional when I can't. I try not to feel guilty when it doesn't happen.

The last thing that works well for us, though merely by coincidence, is that DD and I are vegetarians. Meat is very expensive, so not buying it saves me a lot of money. A can of black beans, a jar of tahini or a container of tofu is much less expensive than a pound of meat. DH buys a bit of red meat for himself about once a month. Because he doesn't eat it often, he can afford to buy the better quality stuff from Whole Foods. Otherwise, he eats what we do. When he is really craving meat, he makes do with tuna, lunchmeat or something equally inexpensive. It isn't organic, but it is what we can afford and he is okay with it.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

We eat all organic. It's very important to us. I don't judge those who don't, but sometimes the mere fact that I *only* buy organic makes those who don't assume that I am judging them, sort of like when they learn that I don't own a TV. All of a sudden, I'm offered unsolicited excuses, or, worse, snide comments.

I don't know what your experiences are, but I've felt that people judge me as judgemental, simply because I'm making different choices.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

I eat and grow all organic. No matter how dire my budget has been organic food has always been a big priority. I do understand that there are some people who really can't afford it, but to me sustainable, healthy food is way more important than new clothes, cell phones, movie rentals, or any other non-essential items people pay for. So often I hear the "organic is so expensive" argument from people who have way higher standards of living than I do, and it is frustrating. If you are buying from a reputable source, organic is more expensive because it represents the true cost of food, providing a livable income for the smaller grower, paying for that grower to practice sustainable growing to preserve our precious water and soil resources. Non-organic food is cheap because it is subsidized (USDA spends about $20 billion in direct subsidies for wheat, corn, soy and rice) below the true cost of production to keep cost low. In the US and worldwide, topsoil erosion, water depletion and pollution (non-organic ag is responsible for %70 of water pollution according to the EPA) are reaching critical levels. Of course with the fossil fuel issue food needs to be organic, local and in season. Either we pay the real cost of food now or our children will pay it on a global level.

On a practical level a great way to make organic food affordable is to cook from scratch, focus on whole foods (veggies, fruit, beans, grains, etc, not the store lol), avoid prepackaged foods, buy in bulk... Usually organic produce and bulk items are only a little higher in cost. I focus most of my meals around soups which are very cost effective. As a pp said, eating in season is a great way to keep costs down. And you can use the sun or your oven to dry foods, canning is cheap and easy, and you can fit lots in a standard freezer. You can also watch sales and look for near the pull-date specials to buy lots of soup meat to freeze, or milk to make yogurt. Often if you form a relationship with your store they will set aside produce that is fine but blemished so they can't sell it and give it to you for free. If you know what you are doing, dumpster diving is another no-cost option. I did it when I had no money. If you are willing to search for it, most communities have CSAs (community supported agriculture) where you pay for a box of veggies (some also do meat, eggs and milk as well) delivered week at very low cost. In my area you pay about $350 at the start of the season and get a huge produce box weekly for 5 months. That amounts to $60 a month! And many people share a "share" and cut their cost. If you are willing to search many farms are not certified organic but farm organically and have very reasonable produce. A good place to start is to find some Slow Food people in the area or farmers markets. Many small farms are open to volunteers and would trade a days worth of weeding or harvesting for food. There are also many people doing cow or goat shares as a way to get raw, grass-fed milk reasonably priced and locally. You can also order bulk items from places like Azure Standard or Mountain Peoples. Of course my favorite way to keep food cost down is to grow or raise you own. Dig up your yard and grow a garden, raise a few chickens for eggs, plant some edible landscaping. If you don't have the space there are many community gardens in urban areas and you can actually grow a lot of greens or herbs on a window sill. HTHs, people can be elitist about many things, but it doesn't always make them wrong about the core issue.

ETA- Yinsum-I think one of the reasons people judge others' food choices is because where are food comes from effects all of us, and our future. Of course some people just like being snobs.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama* 
So often I hear the "organic is so expensive" argument from people who have way higher standards of living than I do, and it is frustrating.

It's all about what you want your Engel's coefficient to be.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

I hear ya.
And I hate the attitude of: they spent all this money on junk food when there are poor starving children in Africa. I buy only organic food.
Well, organic food costs more than junk food, so that person is actually probably spending more money on food than the junk food eater, so how does that help the African kids anyway?
And it also drives me crazy when people feel so high and mighty because they buy the Annies mac and cheese, or whatever. Well, it is all good and well for your family, but the packaging is still there adn killing our planet.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

We can't buy all organic, and our stores sell just a bit anyway, and there are no co-ops or farmers delivering to our door, so we just buy organic on the things that are most important to me. We buy organic milk, and yes it costs a ton, and any produce whose skin we will be eating like apples and berries. We buy organic yogurt, butter and cheese when on sale (when it is the same price as regular) and stock up that way. We buy conventinal crackers, breads, etc. That's the best we can do right now. I feel like the milk is the most important to me, so that is where I've focused.


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## marlee (Aug 29, 2005)

Quote:

We eat all organic. It's very important to us. I don't judge those who don't, but sometimes the mere fact that I *only* buy organic makes those who don't assume that I am judging them, sort of like when they learn that I don't own a TV. All of a sudden, I'm offered unsolicited excuses, or, worse, snide comments.

I don't know what your experiences are, but I've felt that people judge me as judgemental, simply because I'm making different choices
:

truedat:

I am happy and grateful to have the money to buy what ever type of food that I choose best for me and my family.


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj* 
I know what you mean, OP--we can't afford to buy all organic either. Most of the time I feel like someone is trying to stiff me, anyway. Organic didn't exist when we were kids and I am not dead yet so we do the best we can. Luckily dd grew out of her allergies so food is not that much of a concern. I cook a lot, but seriously when it comes down to paying 2.50 for a bottle of JIFF verses 5 freaking bucks for the organic stuff I buy the JIFF. I buy organic milk when I can, usually it is from Costco which some people may look down on, but I really don't care. I really don't know how different farming practices are, but they must be better than 20 years ago--and "organic" was definitely not marketed as it is now (at very low points I feel like buying non-organic=bad mommy). Well, too bad. I have too many other things to worry about.
Liane

Juices are the worst, imo. $7 for a small jar of juice? I am always irrationally annoyed at people who can make serving sizes work. Meaning, one of those tiny organic boxes of whatever does not equal a family meal inmy house,yk? We have to buy two or three boxes of organic or natural cookies, so that $3 snack jumps to nearly as much as Jack In The Box.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

Organic stuff isn't really "Trendy" here, so there isn't a lot of it to be found. So, I read labels and get what is best. I have eliminated trans fats from our diet, and am working on weeding out all the HFCS now.

Once we are back in the states and have the option to shop around, it might be an option, but german markets haven't really given in to the organic craze, so we do our best with the farmers markets and a combination of the bakeries here, the different markets like the fish market, and the commissary for stuff we want from home like cereal.

I think the food here has a lot less preservatives anyhow, and is overall more healthy.


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

I would be happy to shop all organic, but people need to realize that it is just not as readily available to some as it is to others. Here in the Midwest, we can't just hop down to Whole Foods or Trader Joe's. Well, I guess I could if I wanted to drive 2 1/2 hrs EACH WAY. Until VERY recently, my choices were:

1. Stale, dusty food at the local "Health Food Store", which is really just a vitamin store.

2. The "organic" aisle at the local grocery store, which consisted of a few plastic tubs of Earthbound Farms organic spinach, those vegan cheese slices, and pomegranite (sp) juice.

When our local store remodeled, we did get a smallish corner as the "Health Market", and it does help. But we don't have the opportunity to buy much in the way of organics, so we do the best we can. Just because I can't buy or can't afford an all-organic diet doesn't mean I've decided "The hell with it, just eat Cheetos!"


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

What's wrong with cheerios?


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

mama2bug, what is your budget, if i may ask? i have $75/week and i feel that isnt enough for organic anything... well, i buy local free range eggs, hormone free chicken and stonyfield farm yogurt, but produce is not organic. we dont have a walmart, whole foods or trader joes locally. well, we have a walmart about 30mins away but i wont drive that far., especially to walmart!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Bug* 
We eat mostly organic and are on a very tight budget. I have had to make choices to eat this way, but so far, it is working for us. Here's what we do:

First, I will be honest and admit that we buy a good many of our groceries at Walmart. They sell a lot of the organic food that we consider staples. (peanut butter, milk, cheese, cereal, sugar, flour, yogurt etc). Ethically, I am appalled by Walmart. I do not buy clothes, toys or household goods there. But what physically goes into my family's bodies (and their subsequent health) is more important to me than the working conditions of strangers. I feel guilty about it, but that's where we are right now.

The groceries that I cannot get at Walmart, I get either at Whole Foods or Trader Joe's. Trader Joes is cheaper, so we go there first, but their produce is changable and they sometimes understock things. Between those two stores, we pick up supplemental things (eggs, crackers, soups, special treats like ice cream, snacks for DD etc).

We are lucky enough to have a local farmer's market that is open most of the year. We go early on weekday mornings and buy produce. I cook green beans, peas and other veggies from scratch instead of from a can or frozen package. Same with fruit whenever possible. We save a ton of money that way. When produce is out of season locally though, I am at the mercy of the grocery stores. I buy organic when I can afford it and conventional when I can't. I try not to feel guilty when it doesn't happen.

The last thing that works well for us, though merely by coincidence, is that DD and I are vegetarians. Meat is very expensive, so not buying it saves me a lot of money. A can of black beans, a jar of tahini or a container of tofu is much less expensive than a pound of meat. DH buys a bit of red meat for himself about once a month. Because he doesn't eat it often, he can afford to buy the better quality stuff from Whole Foods. Otherwise, he eats what we do. When he is really craving meat, he makes do with tuna, lunchmeat or something equally inexpensive. It isn't organic, but it is what we can afford and he is okay with it.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Sometimes, when I have to justify the price of going to whole foods, I tell myself that I could make one heck of a healthy homemade meal for the price of one trip to tasteless McDo.

Also, you have to know how to shop Whole foods. Their bulk spice Isle rocks! You can get a little baggy of spices for cents rather than dollars. Also, buying beans, grains and pasta from their bulk bins saves money. Cooking similar things all week with a certain "theme" saves money because everything goes fairly well together so you can use leftovers easily. Buying vegetables that you are likely to eat saves money. Granted, we don't eat much meat, so I usually bypass that section altogether.

You can get a little bottle of flavored syrup (usually in the coffee and tea section) and put a few drops in water for your kids instead of buying sodas.

Also, you have to consider which vegetables are most important to buy organic. I don't have the list though.

When we found out that my son was allergic to milk, eggs and gluten, we had to stop buying prepackaged food and the difference has been amazing! We save so much money and we've made habits that make it just as convenient as boxed foods ever were. Once we got into the habit of making things ourselves, all the prepackaged stuff seems so "plastic" for lack of a better explanation. I swear I can now taste preservatives!

Since we don't drink milk or eat much meat or gluten and we buy duck eggs, our shopping experience might not be the "norm." Try grocery shopping at Albertsons when you don't eat wheat, eggs or drink milk....Whole foods has been a savior for us.

I don't think you have to eat organic to eat healthy either. It's nice if you can do it because it often helps smaller farmers and "should" be healthier, but it's not the absolute way to a healthy family IMO.

Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)


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## DandeCobb (Jul 20, 2006)

to the OP, i don't remember who are you, just forget about it! you are doing the best for your family you can do! I don't buy organic (well on occasion the food i regularly buy happens to be organic) my focus for my family is on local food and avoiding convenience food whenever possible (i try to make from scratch anything that i can) for me, buying a non organic apple grown 5 miles away is much better than an organic apple grown thousands of miles away. (it doesn't hurt that i know my local farms are hiring local people to work at a fair wage) you have to focus on what is important to your family, not whats important to MDC


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It's totally possible to eat well without eating organic. I pretty much ignore organic on most things and focus on having lots of diverse veggies, protein, and fiber. Organic is nice but it's really not the most important factor.

I agree. Finding good sources for fresh produce and meat can be just as good as certified organic, and quite often local sources ARE organic, just without the USDA stamp of approval. I always tell people to TALK to their growers and ASK them how they raise/grow their products, because you will find that a lot of times their stuff is very good quality anyway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama* 
but to me sustainable, healthy food is way more important than new clothes, cell phones, movie rentals, or any other non-essential items people pay for.

I see your point, but it also sort of sounds like you're saying that those who can't afford organic food are in that situation because of poor (to you) choices. That's not fair.

There was a period last year where our utilities were getting shut off regularly because we couldn't pay them. We were robbing Peter to pay Paul, and that meant that the water bill came last sometimes, or the power bill came last sometimes. It was a struggle to put food on the table, yet by anyone's standards we looked like we had a high standard of living, but in reality we were NOT able to make it week to week. We were hardly placing movie rentals and new clothes above our need to eat well, but I suppose by looking at us anyone would assume that.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

*I'm copying my post from the other thread as it might make more sense in this thread....hope that's ok*

I'm afraid to post and be flamed but here goes...

I don't shop at the "mainstream" supermarkets very often so I don't see people's carts loaded with these foods. I do think though that it isn't about judging the person buying the cart full of processed foods. It is more about the foods themselves for me. There are so many toxic ingredients in the foods people buy. Remember Olestra? Nutrasweet? Dyes? I am seriously freaked out by all the chemicals in these foods.

About the money issue, I think it is a shame that eating healthy is perceived as being a priveledge for only the rich. It is becoming more affordable to shop at places like Whole Foods. Trader Joe's has many affordable organic foods. Whole Foods has fantastic coupon booklets in their stores.
I don't believe all junk food is created equal. There is a huge difference between WF organic cheese popcorn and processed, fake cheese, yellow dyed popcorn. The organic one is $1.49 per bag, by the way. Whole Foods has their own generic brand now and the prices are excellent. I buy organic canned vegs for a dollar. I buy fresh what is on sale and in the warmer months I go to the farmer's markets. Trader Joe's has cheap organic avocados, really cheap organic frozen produce. I could go on but honestly it is possible not to break the bank at a HFS. We used to live near a small HSF and they gave great incentives for shopping there like punch cards that gave you great deals, etc.

Also, I have been judged by people because I do shop at heath food stores and try to buy organic when possible/affordable. There is a huge portion of the population here in America that think people who buy organic are fools, nutty liberals, hippies, suckers. I might be a nutty liberal but i'm definitely no fool or sucker

I wish everyone would work together to stop the chemicals from being put in the foods our children consume, stop GMO, stop hormones in regular dairy, etc, etc, etc. That is what the real problem is. Everyone wants to be healthy and to help their children be healthy. I really believe that. It's a matter of educating about what is really in processed foods and dispelling a lot of myths surrounding they "type" of people who buy healthy foods.

Am I making any sense ?- I have a feverish kiddo on my right and a nursing todder on my left as I type (with two hands!)


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I think, like many pp have mentioned, that the availability of good organic food makes a huge difference in price. I have 3 whole foods and 2 trader joes within 10 minutes from my house. Also both the regular grocery stores carry alot of organics, even their own brands, which makes things a lot less expensive. We are also in a bind, because my kids can't have glutens, dairy, or eggs! UGH! And because of the issues ds1 has, I avoid pesticides as much as possible.

Another thing that has seriously allowed us to spend more on organic veggies is the venison that fills our freezer!







When you very rarely buy meat from a supermarket.... I use vinegar and EO to clean with and honey and baking soda to wash with.

But it is still very expensive. I am shocked at how much my children eat. Sometimes I get down, because it seems like we only have money for food. We even have had to decide whether to buy organic or sign our kids up for sports. Luckily, we qualify with the town for help with things like sports, where as we don't quilify for help with food.

I think most people who know what a healthy diet is and understand how it can affect health, want to eat well. So there is obviously much more that goes into what you buy than just food choices. I believe that money is certainly plays a large role in what someone can and cannot buy. We have just been very lucky to be able to eat the way we do. Not everyone has all those things that I mentioned line up.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

The closest Whole Foods to me is 125 miles away, and the closest Trader Joes is about 250 miles. So no, i CAN'T shop there to save money. Not I don't want to, but I can't afford the gas and an entire day on grocery shopping.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 







The closest Whole Foods to me is 125 miles away, and the closest Trader Joes is about 250 miles. So no, i CAN'T shop there to save money. Not I don't want to, but I can't afford the gas and an entire day on grocery shopping.

I used to live far from those places too. I did have a small hfs though and they had great sales. The regular stores in this area all have health food sections but their prices are way higher than the same foods at the hfs.

Of course many people are limited by what is in their area. I too would not be able to drive a distance with my car hating toddler. We do what we can


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I see your point, but it also sort of sounds like you're saying that those who can't afford organic food are in that situation because of poor (to you) choices. That's not fair.

No, that isn't what I am saying. I am just saying that for me personally, I am willing to do without non-essentials in order to afford organic foods. I wouldn't judge someone based on what I see in their cart; I would just assume they are doing the best they can with the resources they have. However I do think too many people have the assumtion that it is too expensive to eat organic on a budget or that it is impossible to eat sustainably without your nearest Whole Foods, and I think much of the time there are more options available if you are willing to put in the effort.


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## wildecent (May 24, 2005)

a lot of my family and friends think that my husband and i are food elitists. we have been eating organic, avoiding tras fats and corn syrup for a little over a decade and it is cheaper for us to buy the things we want now than it was when we started. whole foods has saved(!) us money after years of buying all of our groceries in little health food stores. i don't tsk tsk and lecture the people i know and do not judge strangers. i eat the way i want to and that is a blessing,i don't think i'm an elitist but food is important to me and i take it seriously.i don't like the holier than thou attitudes i see sometimes, but i could be seen as holier than when i say " we don't eat cheerios" i don't go into the amounts of pesticide residue in conventional cereal for fear of coming off judgemental toward the person,but just that sentance "we don't eat..." can be seen as a slam by someone else.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama* 
However I do think too many people have the assumption that it is too expensive to eat organic on a budget or that it is impossible to eat sustainably without your nearest Whole Foods, and I think much of the time there are more options available if you are willing to put in the effort.

As demonstrated by previous posters in this thread, sometimes the only extra effort they could make is to drive 250 miles to a HFS, which is totally unrealistic. Not every community, town, city, state, and country will have the same variables.

I just think we need to be careful by making such broad speculations about what other people could do shop totally organic.

I have a little HFS right around the corner that I like to support because they were here long before Whole Foods, but they are a lot more expensive. So then I have to get the more pricer items and Whole Foods, but even that is expensive. So then I try to hit the green markets and farmers markets to get the good deals, by the time all is said and done I have spent half the week "putting in the effort" to getting my organic food, that I've wasted gas, made my kid throw a fit in the evil car seat, and polluted the environment with the extra gas it took to go to three extra stores when I could have gone to one. Walking and public transit is out of the question due to health reasons 90% of the time, which leaves me dependent on my car. Sometimes it's just unrealistic at best, and totally impossible at worst.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
As demonstrated by previous posters in this thread, sometimes the only extra effort they could make is to drive 250 miles to a HFS, which is totally unrealistic. Not every community, town, city, state, and country will have the same variables.

I just think we need to be careful by making such broad speculations about what other people could do shop totally organic.

I am certainly not suggesting people spend more time in the car. But I do think it would help if people were more aware of options like CSAs, bulk order companies, community gardens, "share" programs, growing your own, small farms that grow sustainably without organic certification, etc. Obviously there are people who really don't have options, but I would hope the word would get out about some lesser known ways to support sustainable agriculture on a budget.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama* 
I am certainly not suggesting people spend more time in the car. But I do think it would help if people were more aware of options like CSAs, bulk order companies, community gardens, "share" programs, growing your own, small farms that grow sustainably without organic certification, etc. Obviously there are people who really don't have options, but I would hope the word would get out about some lesser known ways to support sustainable agriculture on a budget.

I agree. I also think we should share these resources instead of just telling people to make an effort (which isn't very helpful in the long run).









Perhaps we should all start organic shopping tribes in our respectable locations to get the ball rolling? If we all did this, I bet there would be a lot of good resources for all MDC mamas to share in their local areas.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad. Eating organics and natural food products that are packaged in appealingly natural-looking bags (like you would find at Trader Joes or Whole Foods) are all part of a "fashion/lifesyle fad". You will find moms in yoga pants wandering the asiles of Trader Joes with a curly haired child in the cart who is sucking on a rice cake---she is there to buy her organic soy milk and Pirate booty and frozen Nancy's quiche. On the way home she stops at Starbucks to get her low fat vanilla soy latte double whip. She feels infinately more stylish than the minivan driving mom who shops at the regular grocery store with all of the colorful mass marketed packaging. Even if the first mom is only buying chips and sodas at the Trader Joes, and the other mom is buying veggies (organic or not) and brown rice, the first mom just feels better about her choices and wears them proudly like a new handbag. It is a packaging and style issue--she is riding the cultural trend that is afoot right now, the natural food-style fad.

This observation comes from a person (me!) who lived in San Francisco for 15 years, across the street from one of the first "natural grocery" stores (Real Foods). I ate there and shopped there everyday, and saw the movement growing, and appreciated what they had to offer--but also knew enough to look beneath the bricks and mortar and see the smart marketing that went along with the cloth grocery bags. They were selling not just food, but a carefully crafted "look" that consumers wanted to be a part of. That look has now finally gone mainstream, and it is being packaged and marketed for mass consumption.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

DH here...

Here's an interesting article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/

Also, we use an organic wash to try to get rid of any pesticide residue. DW has washed veggies in a clear bowl and can see the dirt and other stuff floating after washing.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

LisainCalifornia, you are so right.

I think some people are missing the point that some of us aren't spending money on non -essentials so that then we can't afford all organic. We can't afford to buy all organic because we literally don't have the money to. We do have a Whole Foods in my city now but it's all the way across town from us as is the other chain hfs (it used to be right up the street from us, we could walk there). I would exclusively shop at Whole Foods (or other HFS) if I could afford to, I would love to buy all organics (we do what we can). It's just not my reality.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad.

I totally know what you're talking about. I see it at Whole Foods, too. Women picking through the organic peaches with their acrylic-nailed fingers, and driving away in a Lexus gas-hog.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
I think some people are missing the point that some of us aren't spending money on non-essentials so that then we can't afford all organic.

And some of us are.

I'll be the first to admit that I could buy way more organic food if we stopped spending so much on outings and the gas/fare it takes to get there. If we never went to the movies, or the arcade, or bowling. If I had my cell-phone turned off (no, not a necessity, but since I WOTH and my kids are home alone often, I like to have it). If I didn't have pets to feed. If we shopped exclusively at thrift shops and never bought new anything.

We don't want to do that. A little twist on the old phrase "man does not live by bread alone." Eat right, exercise, die anyway.


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## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

I don't agree that the trend to organic is just trendy but if eliminating pesticides, GMO's, hormones and antibiotics from the food chain is a fad, it's a good one and I hope it will catch on. The more people asking for organic foods, the cheaper and easier they will be to get.
To me, fads foods are foods like Olestra, "Lite" foods, margarine and other trans fats. These man-made foods are the ones that go in and out of style. Organic and slow food enthusiasts have been around for at least the 30 years that I have been preparing food for my family and most would consider it a movement, not a fad.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad. Eating organics and natural food products that are packaged in appealingly natural-looking bags (like you would find at Trader Joes or Whole Foods) are all part of a "fashion/lifesyle fad". You will find moms in yoga pants wandering the asiles of Trader Joes with a curly haired child in the cart who is sucking on a rice cake---she is there to buy her organic soy milk and Pirate booty and frozen Nancy's quiche. On the way home she stops at Starbucks to get her low fat vanilla soy latte double whip. She feels infinately more stylish than the minivan driving mom who shops at the regular grocery store with all of the colorful mass marketed packaging. Even if the first mom is only buying chips and sodas at the Trader Joes, and the other mom is buying veggies (organic or not) and brown rice, the first mom just feels better about her choices and wears them proudly like a new handbag. It is a packaging and style issue--she is riding the cultural trend that is afoot right now, the natural food-style fad.

This observation comes from a person (me!) who lived in San Francisco for 15 years, across the street from one of the first "natural grocery" stores (Real Foods). I ate there and shopped there everyday, and saw the movement growing, and appreciated what they had to offer--but also knew enough to look beneath the bricks and mortar and see the smart marketing that went along with the cloth grocery bags. They were selling not just food, but a carefully crafted "look" that consumers wanted to be a part of. That look has now finally gone mainstream, and it is being packaged and marketed for mass consumption.

Hmm, that was a pretty biased view of the type of people who shop at those stores. Not at all what I look like when I show up at whole foods or trader joe's. I'm usually in stained jeans and an old sweatshirt, looking frazzeled from coming from the other grocery stores in town, with three children hanging off me, looking intently at each and everything I put in my cart to make sure it is actually something that my kids can have, becasue I can only find so much for them at other stores. But you're right, my kids might be sucking on a rice cake, probably an organic one too, but I can't afford to stop for coffee on my way home. And my minivan's drivers side window won't open and the heat will only come on full blast or not at all, but obviously I must be one of the beautiful people that you're talking about!


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad. Eating organics and natural food products that are packaged in appealingly natural-looking bags (like you would find at Trader Joes or Whole Foods) are all part of a "fashion/lifesyle fad". You will find moms in yoga pants wandering the asiles of Trader Joes with a curly haired child in the cart who is sucking on a rice cake---she is there to buy her organic soy milk and Pirate booty and frozen Nancy's quiche. On the way home she stops at Starbucks to get her low fat vanilla soy latte double whip. She feels infinately more stylish than the minivan driving mom who shops at the regular grocery store with all of the colorful mass marketed packaging. Even if the first mom is only buying chips and sodas at the Trader Joes, and the other mom is buying veggies (organic or not) and brown rice, the first mom just feels better about her choices and wears them proudly like a new handbag. It is a packaging and style issue--she is riding the cultural trend that is afoot right now, the natural food-style fad.

This observation comes from a person (me!) who lived in San Francisco for 15 years, across the street from one of the first "natural grocery" stores (Real Foods). I ate there and shopped there everyday, and saw the movement growing, and appreciated what they had to offer--but also knew enough to look beneath the bricks and mortar and see the smart marketing that went along with the cloth grocery bags. They were selling not just food, but a carefully crafted "look" that consumers wanted to be a part of. That look has now finally gone mainstream, and it is being packaged and marketed for mass consumption.









:

Well put!
I see a lot of it as a consequence of the "worried well" and the extreme anxiety Americans often feel largely as a consequence to individualism and mass marketing.

It drives me crazy when people get all high and mighty about eating all organics. If you can, good for you, but you're not necessarily making better choices. A lot of the organics that you get at a place like Whole Foods and Trader Joes comes from very, very far away and relies on exploitative labor. Also, processed is processed- packaged is packaged. We go to Trader Joes for junk food. I'm not kidding myself that just because it's organic or natural that it's healthy.

Also, a lot of the "major" brands of organics support the same evil companies that push GMOs and market HFCS and trans fats in their other products.

We try to buy local first (to cut down on fossil fuels and to support our economy) and then organic if we can. We can afford to do this. I would never, ever judge someone who is struggling to feed their families about not eating organics. It is a privilege (it shouldn't be, but it is) and I feel very privileged to be able to choose where my food comes from and what I am going to eat.

I really feel for the mamas here who have to deal with the moral superiority of elitist people who don't recognize their privilege.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
And some of us are.

I'll be the first to admit that I could buy way more organic food if we stopped spending so much on outings and the gas/fare it takes to get there. If we never went to the movies, or the arcade, or bowling. If I had my cell-phone turned off (no, not a necessity, but since I WOTH and my kids are home alone often, I like to have it). If I didn't have pets to feed. If we shopped exclusively at thrift shops and never bought new anything.

We don't want to do that. A little twist on the old phrase "man does not live by bread alone." Eat right, exercise, die anyway.


I know, I just think that it is assumed that eveyone could afford all organic if they'd just budget their money better. we could forgo internet service though and afford to buy a couple more items that are organic a week but obviously my family would rather have the internet, our one major non-essential thing. But we still couldn't afford ALL organic.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum* 
I would never, ever judge someone who is struggling to feed their families about not eating organics. It is a privilege (it shouldn't be, but it is) and I feel very privileged to be able to choose where my food comes from and what I am going to eat.

I really feel for the mamas here who have to deal with the moral superiority of elitist people who don't recognize their privilege.

Thank you!!!!


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *race_kelly* 
Hmm, that was a pretty biased view of the type of people who shop at those stores. Not at all what I look like when I show up at whole foods or trader joe's. I'm usually in stained jeans and an old sweatshirt, looking frazzeled from coming from the other grocery stores in town, with three children hanging off me, looking intently at each and everything I put in my cart to make sure it is actually something that my kids can have, becasue I can only find so much for them at other stores. But you're right, my kids might be sucking on a rice cake, probably an organic one too, but I can't afford to stop for coffee on my way home. And my minivan's drivers side window won't open and the heat will only come on full blast or not at all, but obviously I must be one of the beautiful people that you're talking about!









I was just making more of a cultural observation--I occasionally shop at TJ's as well--I live in the Bay Area and it is convenient to get to one when I need something from there. I realize that not all people that shop there look like the example I gave--I don't look like that! But what I am saying is that this is a "trend" like any other, and there are good and bad aspects to that trend, and eventually it will probably die out and a new food/lifestyle trend will begin. I realize I am getting a little too Faith Popcorn here, so I will stop now


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad. Eating organics and natural food products that are packaged in appealingly natural-looking bags (like you would find at Trader Joes or Whole Foods) are all part of a "fashion/lifesyle fad".

and this is a bad thing because....? i'd rather see health as a fad then something like those Bratz dolls. i do see where you are coming from, having just been to Henry's where the majority were talking on their pink razors and sipping their Starbucks, but to say the natural/health food movment is a fad is downplaying the importance of being mindful about what is going into our bodies. not only that but why are we so down on these 'in' mommas and dads for doing what is better? because they can afford to buy all organic and drive a BMW they're suddenly not intitled to make health based decsions? so what if mom just came back from botox to pick up some organic free range eggs? every little bit counts.

that being said, we buy some organic but more than likely about 15%. mainly we stick with local not only for the enviornment and because we simply can't afford organic (heck! we can hardly afford groceries, period!) but also because our area is full of agriculture being provided by the poor and imigrants. we were raised here and grew up seeing the fields and all that. we'd much rather go to the road side stand set up by a feild worker then to the Ralph's down the street. i won't deny that organic is best but eating organic doesn't make one a better person/mother/father/wife/husband/card player/etc. on the flip side neither does walking into a healthfood store wearing birks with your cloth grocerie bags and dreadlocs.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

try to buy from farmers markets and I'd love to find a proper butcher. *Buying locally is actually more important to me that buying organic*, since frankly, buying non-organic locally is often better for the environment (and is often fresher) than buying organic that was airfreighted or shipped in.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes organic is important but as organic becomes more regulated it is difficult for many small local farms to be certified. I would take an apple from a local non-certified organic farm any day over a certified organic one shipped from out of state or even IN state. To me local will always be more important than mass-market organic. If I can get local _and_ organic well then I look at that as plus.

All people can benefit from a varied diet high in whole grains, lean proteins fruits and veggies. I personally I think that is the first priority. If as a parent you are doing your best to feed family a balanced diet w/ the resources you have not eating organic is not going to kill you. If you can then add local and/or organic produce to your diet all the better.

Seriously the argument I see about "priorities" and not spending my money on "extra's" like cell phones, etc just cracks me up. You see the same in the mommy wars. If she just gave up her car, sold her house, stopped shopping at expensive stores, stopped doing XYZ she could stay home. So a person goes and does that and is now beat up because they can't buy organic. I guess that mom should just go back to work, huh?


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Sorry I took that personally! I often get the comments on the opposite side of the spectrum that I'm wasting my money by shopping at those places and maybe we'd have a better car if I didn't spend my money on food!







See, you just can't win no matter where you fall.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *race_kelly* 
I often get the comments on the opposite side of the spectrum that I'm wasting my money by shopping at those places and maybe we'd have a better car if I didn't spend my money on food!







*See, you just can't win no matter where you fall*.









especially the part i bolded.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Whether or not people percieve your ability to afford organics depends totally on where you live. I moved a few hundred miles after I started eating organic. It was *maybe* 5% more than conventional foods at my original location, plus, I was only dealing feeding pregnant me and dh, and then an infant for a few weeks at the time of the move. When we moved, we went to another fairly urban area, and the prices of the foods we routinely bought were literally 4-5 times as expensive as they were before we moved. There was absolutely NO WAY we could afford to eat organic. I could barely feed my family conventional foods (we moved because of job loss), and if I would have taken that tight budget and had organics, we could have eaten for one, maybe two days of the week and been hungry...even on the cheapest most basic whole foods.

Although there are independent farmers in this area (we are in the heartland, after all), most are an hour away. The farmer's market only runs in the summer, 1 day a week, for a few hours in the morning in the downtown area that takes us a good half an hour to get to. Not going to happen. Plus, I was on food stamps and you can't use them there. (you also couldn't use them for any of the farms that I called and asked too).

So, although we are starting to be able to add organic milk and eggs back into our diet, most of our diet is conventional food unless there is a serious special that brings it into the range of normal foods. However, I am not paying $5 an apple when I can get an apple for $.97 (or less). Not happening in my budget when my ds can sit and eat 4-5 apples in a setting if I let him.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

I don't think it is a bad thing at all, it is just important to recognize it is cultural/marketing/financial trend--and when the dust settles on the trend and society has moved on, there will probably be a great deal of growth and exposure that resulted from the trend. But I do think it is important to be a savy consumer and realize that just because something is packaged for consumption to look "healthy" does not mean it is, and conversly you can find healthy food resources these days (organic foods, bulk brown rice, hormone free milk) in less "hip" venues.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
I don't think it is a bad thing at all, it is just important to recognize it is cultural/marketing/financial trend--and when the dust settles on the trend and society has moved on, there will probably be a great deal of growth and exposure that resulted from the trend.

Hopefully. I see the trend in general as a good thing - for example the attention now being paid to trans-fats and how they are being removed from pretty much everything. This will have an across the board improvement in public health. And if organic becomes the new "must have", then more and more food will be grown "organically" which should mean reduced amount of pesticides, etc. It won't be perfect, but hopefully there will be a net improvement in the general quality of food available on the market.

Quote:

But I do think it is important to be a savy consumer and realize that just because something is packaged for consumption to look "healthy" does not mean it is
Can i say it again? ORGANIC LUCKY CHARMS!


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Can i say it again? ORGANIC LUCKY CHARMS!









Yes, but they are magically delicious!







:


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

ITA, Lisa and siobhang.
organic lucky charms!







: i especially love when my mom comes shopping with us to buy her 'natural' energy drinks and sodas.







:


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aka mommy* 
If it isnt organic I fear the hormones and extras that are going into their bodies, but then the money side hits me. And who wants to pay $5.99 for 1 gallon of milk? Thats $1,557.40 a year on just milk alone.

Organic milk at our grocery store is $10.99 per gallon; regular milk is about $5.00 per gallon. I can get raw, organic, farm-fresh milk for $3.20 per gallon, but I have to drive about an hour to get it.

Quote:

I also wonder where people who are so snarky about organic foods buy from? If they are just buying it from Raley's or Safeway where they are sitting right next to the nonorganic produce, whats the point? REcent studies have shown that all the fertilizers and harmful chemicals on those products get onto the organic produce, and in theory defeats the whole purpose.
I occasionally buy organic produce, depending on where I'm shopping. Organic bananas are not much more expensive than reg bananas, and still much cheaper than other non-organic fruit. I don't really buy it so that we ingest fewer pesticides; I'm doing it to keep pesticides out of the environment where the produce is grown and to support companies that are willing to make changes.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
ITA, Lisa and siobhang.
organic lucky charms!







: i especially love when my mom comes shopping with us to buy her 'natural' energy drinks and sodas.







:

I got into a fight with a friend who accused me of being a food snob when I told her that I don't eat Kraft cheese or velveta.

I thought about it, and discovered that in my mind there is a difference between "tasty" and "good".

Kraft american cheese food slices are tasty on hamburgers. Velveta can make a tasty mac and cheese. But these cheese are not good - they are in fact basically plastic (especially the american pre-sliced cheese indiviudally wrapped in plastic). They aren't even legally allowed to be called cheese because they don't have enough milk in them.

I have no issue with someone saying that some non-healthy kind of food is tasty - heck it is designed to be tasty. And I ain't no puritan - I buy potato chips, diet coke, and so forth.

But tasty doesn't make it good.

<meaningless rant about cheese>
I personally have a huge issue with bad cheese. It pisses me off that decent cheese is so expensive in this country - I lived in England for three years and I got a bit spoilt by the selections. I am very glad that my family can afford to buy cheese at $7 a hunk (whole foods and wegmans both have fabulous selections) - and it makes me mad that due to price or availability, most people is the US have to buy cheese food.

I find that most people I know have no experience with cheese - they know american, chedder, swiss, and maybe havarti. They are scared of blues or of anything that might be strong tasting. But I often find people are very pleasently surprised when I introduce them to goats cheese or a nice stilton or even a hunk of gruyere and they taste great!

Cheese is a craft that humans have been laboring and experiementing with for thousands of years. It deserves more respect than velveta.
</rant>

Okay, maybe i am a food snob...







:


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

really interesting conversation here. Glad to see it happen.
I want to add a bit more. About why should one have to explain or justify what they do inorder to become part of the "I shop organic" club.
I drive used cars(thats 15 years and older), shop thrift stores (when I can afford that) and yes I have a cell phone (for our family its a neccessity).
But why should anyone have to justify?
People I know who soley buy organic more power to them. I don't see their freedonm to choose as elitist.
I see elitism another person's need to point out:
-how they pity more poor children because of our food choices.
-tell me that I am not a frugal shopper. (by the way, I leave cashier's in awe when I am done with my coupons)
-point out if I just motor to the stores upwards of 20 miles away ( has anyone seen the price of gas lately)
-when I do go to farmers markets , I am further pressured to have delivery which in the long run is cheaper. I get that but can someone float me the $350 upfront?








There is a big disconnect in that judgement.

I am sure if we look deep enough, we all could do something different for the uplifting of the planet even my 100% organic brothers and sisters. Somewhere on some plane we fall short.
By the way, I don't mind being educated. Educate me. Share with me where to fiind deals, what foods don't have to be organic to keep me safe. But don't preach to me to do away with other life necessities (when you don't know my circumstances). Don't pity my family and cry that we don't have all organic food. HECK DON'T HATE ON ME BECAUSE I BOUGHT BEN & JERRY'S GOBFATHER







: It was on sale 2 for $4 and I had a coupon for $1 off 2.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

I would never make anyone feel bad for their food choices! That's horrible. I think that pretty much every mama here at MDC is doing the best they can for their family. I live in an area where organic produce often looks pretty bad. I get what I can when it's available. Fortuantely, we have an awesome health food co-op where I can buy dried fruit, flours, oats, beans and many other grains organic and cheaper than conventional at the supermarket. Also, from May through October, I belong to an aweome organic CSA. We get so many veggies each week that I'm usually sharing them with friends. I always get organic milk and local, organic pastured eggs. I'm extremely lucky that I'm able to afford that.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

awwww...man...lost my post







:

here are a couple of links some of y'all who want to buy more organic but are finding it to expensive might find helpful --

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/buyingclub.cfm

http://www.localharvest.org

also, you can look into volunteering at your local food co-op. i get almost 20% off my food bill for volunteering 3 hrs a week.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
But don't preach to me to do away with other life necessities (when you don't know my circumstances). Don't pity my family and cry that we don't have all organic food.

My mom told me that growing up on foodstamps in her small midwestern town, other people and the cashier would make comments and judgments on what her mom bought - usually not TO her, but outloud to each other.

She told me that it was humiliating to see her own mother be judged (usually as insufficient) every time they went to the store.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
HECK DON'T HATE ON ME BECAUSE I BOUGHT BEN & JERRY'S GOBFATHER







: It was on sale 2 for $4 and I had a coupon for $1 off 2.

Sounds yummy!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I got into a fight with a friend who accused me of being a food snob when I told her that I don't eat Kraft cheese or velveta.

I thought about it, and discovered that in my mind there is a difference between "tasty" and "good".

Kraft american cheese food slices are tasty on hamburgers. Velveta can make a tasty mac and cheese. But these cheese are not good - they are in fact basically plastic (especially the american pre-sliced cheese indiviudally wrapped in plastic). They aren't even legally allowed to be called cheese because they don't have enough milk in them.

I have no issue with someone saying that some non-healthy kind of food is tasty - heck it is designed to be tasty. And I ain't no puritan - I buy potato chips, diet coke, and so forth.

But tasty doesn't make it good.

<meaningless rant about cheese>
I personally have a huge issue with bad cheese. It pisses me off that decent cheese is so expensive in this country - I lived in England for three years and I got a bit spoilt by the selections. I am very glad that my family can afford to buy cheese at $7 a hunk (whole foods and wegmans both have fabulous selections) - and it makes me mad that due to price or availability, most people is the US have to buy cheese food.

I find that most people I know have no experience with cheese - they know american, chedder, swiss, and maybe havarti. They are scared of blues or of anything that might be strong tasting. But I often find people are very pleasently surprised when I introduce them to goats cheese or a nice stilton or even a hunk of gruyere and they taste great!

Cheese is a craft that humans have been laboring and experiementing with for thousands of years. It deserves more respect than velveta.
</rant>

Okay, maybe i am a food snob...







:

You know....some of us just don't like most cheeses. I like cheddar (although I'm not crazy about really aged cheddar), mozzarella and I'll use a few others here and there in sauces and stuff. That's it. I've tried - reluctantly, I'll admit - a few others, and I haven't liked any of them. Blue cheese is disgusting to me - the smell alone makes me nauseous (I'm learning to live with it, though, as dh loves it and dd likes it quite well).

I love Velveeta. I still keep it in the house. I can't stand the single pack cheese clices, though - they taste awful. I need to master making mac and cheese without Velveeta, though...


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 

Seriously the argument I see about "priorities" and not spending my money on "extra's" like cell phones, etc just cracks me up. You see the same in the mommy wars. If she just gave up her car, sold her house, stopped shopping at expensive stores, stopped doing XYZ she could stay home. So a person goes and does that and is now beat up because they can't buy organic. I guess that mom should just go back to work, huh?

I agree. It's rediculous. Also, "necessities" are relative. I view my cell phone as a necessity, but I also don't have a land line just so I can have it. It has literally saved my life (stranded 28 miles from a gas station or pay phone). I still had to wait 5 hours to be rescued, but had I not had my cell phone, I would have had to just wait until someone came looking for me. And with all the crime popping up in our area, I would prefer to have it when I am out and about with my daughter. Plus, I get free road side assistance with my cell phone plan, which means I don't have to pay to be an AAA member, and it makes me feel safe to be driving around with my daughter knowing I can call and get a free tow truck or a free unlocking.


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj* 
Organic didn't exist when we were kids and I am not dead yet so we do the best we can. .
Liane

Most of the food people have eaten over the ages has been organic. The publication Organic Gardening has been published since 1942 (which I think is way longer than the average MDC member has been on earth). I just want people to not think of organics as the "new" thing/way when really it should be considered the authentic way.

I think that all things being equal I think organic can be done for about the same as conventional in terms of $, but then you have to have other resources i.e. time, tools, storage space, cooking skills, gardening skills, reliable transportation. I think it is within reach of a lot of people who just don't care







and out of reach for some here that would really like it







).

People need to do what is best in the big picture (for them). The problem with poverty is immediate needs can make it awfully hard to see the big picture.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

siobhang -
Just an aside, if you have a trader joe's near you, check out their cheese section. You'll be surprised by the prices and the variety.

Yinsum-
Can I have the other icecream?


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *race_kelly* 
siobhang -
Just an aside, if you have a trader joe's near you, check out their cheese section. You'll be surprised by the prices and the variety.

Yinsum-
Can I have the other icecream?









actually I have been very disappointed in our local trader joe's. Perhaps it is because it is a small store, but I found it very limited.

Wegmans has a to-die-for cheese selection. I will drive the extra 30 minutes every so often to get their good cheese. But our local safeway actually sells decent chedders and so forth.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

The trader joe's can be very different from each other. I like one a lot better than another near me.


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## Guava~Lush (Aug 9, 2003)

Quote:

<meaningless rant about cheese>
I personally have a huge issue with bad cheese. It pisses me off that decent cheese is so expensive in this country - I lived in England for three years and I got a bit spoilt by the selections. I am very glad that my family can afford to buy cheese at $7 a hunk (whole foods and wegmans both have fabulous selections) - and it makes me mad that due to price or availability, most people is the US have to buy cheese food.

I find that most people I know have no experience with cheese - they know american, chedder, swiss, and maybe havarti. They are scared of blues or of anything that might be strong tasting. But I often find people are very pleasently surprised when I introduce them to goats cheese or a nice stilton or even a hunk of gruyere and they taste great!

Cheese is a craft that humans have been laboring and experiementing with for thousands of years. It deserves more respect than velveta.
</rant>

Okay, maybe i am a food snob...
When Whole Foods opens here, I am looking foward to to the cheese! That would probably be all I can afford there.








I have never tried Velveta. I know we used it to catch trout when I was 15. They loved it.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
You know....some of us just don't like most cheeses. I like cheddar (although I'm not crazy about really aged cheddar), mozzarella and I'll use a few others here and there in sauces and stuff. That's it. I've tried - reluctantly, I'll admit - a few others, and I haven't liked any of them. Blue cheese is disgusting to me - the smell alone makes me nauseous (I'm learning to live with it, though, as dh loves it and dd likes it quite well)..

fair enough - I can't stand most fish, so someone lecturing on how most americans think that tuna and fish sticks are the only fish around would kind of leave me cold









That said, there is a noticeable taste difference between the hunk of dyed orange kraft chedder and kerrygold chedder cheese. There is also a substantial price difference.

It is the fact that processed cheese dominates the cheese market and sets the standards for taste that bugs me. But then, I care a lot about cheese. And I am weird. I know that. I never expect anyone to agree with my obsessions ; )

Quote:

I love Velveeta. I still keep it in the house. I can't stand the single pack cheese clices, though - they taste awful. I need to master making mac and cheese without Velveeta, though..
Velveeta does make great mac and cheese. Gruyere also makes nice mac and cheese, as does emmental - both of those cheeses are what most people think of as "swiss" - only generally without the holes in them.

Now, if I could find local cheese maker - OH. MY. GOD.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

I don't understand why it has to be an all or nothing proposition. I don't know a single person who eats ALL organic. I try to eat certain things organic that I know have the most pesticides - for intance, strawberries which I only buy on sale. I often buy produce at Trader Joe's where it is frozen and organic and as cheap as the regular stuff at Stop and Shop.

Organic is great on many levels but it is way down the list from chemicals in foods and hormones in dairy. For my daughter, I try to get organic dairy (we don't drink cow's milk so cheese) because I think the dairy industry has so muddled with cows that the hormones are affecting our daughters' growth and development. Girls are getting their periods at 8yrs old.

I wish people would take some of the focus off of the organic vs non organic debate and work on getting companies to remove toxic dyes and dangerous preservatives from our foods. That is a much more dire situation needing immediate attention, in my humble opinion









On the fad thing, I don't know about that. I have been a vegetarian since I was a young child and before that, my family was macrobiotic. This was a LONG time ago and it was far from trendy. My mother broke out of the european mold of meat and cheese and wine and went in a different direction. I still get chastised from my french family







We shopped at a super small hfs in our neighborhood and my parents scraped by as a struggling artist and teacher/musician. They wanted what everyone wants - good health for their families. There was definitely some luck involved (no driving for one) but also a lot of effort and thought on my mother's part.

I'm glad to see more people becoming vegetarian and vegan. It's a great trend and more power to it


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

siobhang: I'm not crazy about emmental (I've had it several times, as my mom is a french onion soup fanatic, and will only use emmental to top it), but maybe I'll try it for mac and cheese. Mac and cheese is one of my favourite foods, and _is_ ds1's favourite. I suppose I could give gruyere a try, too - I've been trying to think of _real_ cheeses to use for my mac and cheese. I currently use part cheddar, part mozza, and part Velveeta.

Kraft cheddar (Cracker Barrel) is actually the high end stuff for us! We used to buy the no-name stuff at the grocery store, but dh likes to snack on cheese, and he doesn't like the no-name much. (The kids snack on it, too - but they don't care about the brand.) I have some organic white cheddar I bought for our decadent breakfast on Saturday - it's pretty good, too...but expensive. I only bought it because we only needed a small amount. Despite being more expensive by weight, it was the cheapest block of white cheddar in the store, because it was small. I'd go organic on cheese, but there's just no way. We go through a lot of it around here.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Honestly, I think there is a bit of classism when it comes to food choices.

When I walk into our local health food store (Food For Thought), it is crammed full of junk food. Puffed rice cereal and cheetos are crap food to me, whether they are organic, made with real organic cheddar cheese, or whatever (puffed rice cereals really irk me because of the havoc they wreak with my blood sugar, so no offense to people who eat puffed rice cereal







).

But, I think to a lot of people if you have a kid walking around eating Pirate's Booty (gotta be honest, it doesn't look all that healthy to me by reading the label), that's no big deal, but if that same kid were walking around eating Chee-tos, the eyes start a'rollin'.

I think it's a combination of classism and the same type of insecure snobbery that people who live alternative lifestyles tend to be prone to. That's why sometimes we have the crunchy wars here are Mothering, in addition to the mommy wars.









I read an article recently about the "Dirty Dozen" (if you search for Dirty Dozen you'll see several articles). There are some key fruits and vegetables that, if you buy organic, can greatly reduce your intake of pesticides and such. I believe peaches and potatoes are on the list.

I don't know where all of the delicious organic cheap food is at. I live in Wichita, KS and we have two local farmer's markets and when I went there, I was very unimpressed with both the food and prices. So, I guess I'll have to do some more digging to find the "real" local farmers around here that might have cheaper prices, because that selection wasn't cheap and the quality wasn't too great either.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
Honestly, I think there is a bit of classism when it comes to food choices.

This might be based on location. When I was a kid and we were shopping at the local hfs it was anything but snobby. We were frindge and looked it









Where we recently moved from, a very rich and snobby town, the local hfs was where the non-snob, hippyish women went - or the kids who did not fit the town norm, worked. We left that town because we didn't fit in but we miss that little haven, the hfs.
Where we are now is a Whole Foods very nearby. There is quite a mix of peope who shop there. I don't get the feeling that people shop there to be cool. They're there because they want to eat particularly healthy food OR they want to buy fresh and/or exotic cheeses/meats/baked goods.
Then again, it's difficult to make these types of judgements based on clothing or other superficial elements. What else can I go on?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
When I walk into our local health food store (Food For Thought), it is crammed full of junk food. Puffed rice cereal and cheetos are crap food to me, whether they are organic, made with real organic cheddar cheese, or whatever (puffed rice cereals really irk me because of the havoc they wreak with my blood sugar, so no offense to people who eat puffed rice cereal







).

See to me they are a world apart. One has chemicals and dyes and the other may also not be wholesome necessarily, but it is at least safe to consume.


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## Sydnee (May 1, 2004)

Well, I am just not completely sold on the whole organic everything issue. I've really researched it, and I do believe in buying organic fruits and veggies. I just think to myself, how do we know that these are honeslty made organically? Like the other day I was shopping, and there is organic PAM!!!







I do buy some organic things, but 1. hubby is 100% against buying anything organic, 2. I buy groceries for 11 people, so it would be waaaay to expensive. I do, however, buy specific things just for my kids, like special crackers, Stoneyfield farms yogurt.

I don't buy something just because it says organic, I buy things that maybe don't have Hydrogenated oils, high fructose corn syrup, etc. etc.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 

But, I think to a lot of people if you have a kid walking around eating Pirate's Booty (gotta be honest, it doesn't look all that healthy to me by reading the label), that's no big deal, but if that same kid were walking around eating Chee-tos, the eyes start a'rollin'.

Pirates Booty looks pretty good to me, and it looks a lot healthier then Cheeto's (or any other children's-marketed snack food *ahem* Gerber). And considering how BAD the ingredients are in Cheeto's, I probably would roll my eyes at them.

For pretty much the same price you can get a much better quality product. I would only consider it "classist" if one was considerably more expensive when people start the eye rollin'. Otherwise it's just a matter of poor choices, which can be found in ANY class.

Cheeto's

Ingredients
Enriched corn meal (Corn meal, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, and Folic Acid), Vegetable Oil (Contains One or More of the Following: Corn, Soybean, or Sunflower Oil), Whey, Salt, Cheddar Cheese (Cultured Milk, Salt, Enzymes), *Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil*, Maltodextrin, Disodium Phosphate, Sour Cream (Cultured Cream, Nonfat Milk), Artificial Flavor, *Monosodium Glutamate*, Lactc Acid, *Artificial Colors (Including Yellow 6)*, and Citric Acid.

Pirates Booty:

Ingredients
Corn Meal, Rice, Rice and/or Sunflower Oil, Aged Cheddar Cheese (No Fat Milk, Salt, Cheese Cultures, Enzymes), Whey and Low Fat Buttermilk.

What is inherently unhealthy about Pirates Booty?


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## jennnk (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Bug* 
First, I will be honest and admit that we buy a good many of our groceries at Walmart. They sell a lot of the organic food that we consider staples. (peanut butter, milk, cheese, cereal, sugar, flour, yogurt etc).

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, but I'd be wary of "organic" at walmart. They're being investigated for their handling, labeling, and stocking practices. The article I read (I'll find it in a second) specifically mentioned yogurt being one of those foods.

Not the article I'm thinking of, but this one talks about the issue: http://www.organicconsumers.org/arti...ticle_3606.cfm

Here's the one I was thinking of: http://www.newsdesk.org/archives/000966.php


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread....but WalMart could be giving away organic food, and I still would not buy it.

I agree that it's not just about the "organic" label. We can thankfully walk to an organic farm, so summer and fall we eat a LOT of fresh organic fruits and veggies. Otherwise we just try to eat as healthfully as we can...winter is tough in the colder states, though I did just find organic blueberries on sale for cheaper than non-organic!

I have a neighbor who always complains that our local farm's prices are too high...which I don't get, since the nearest grocery store is 25 minutes away. So that's 2 gallons of gas at $2.50 a gallon to spend almost as much on produce as you would by walking down the road. Plus I'd rather support my neighbors by buying their produce...and it's just darn fun to pick your own strawberries.


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## vgnmama2keller (Apr 27, 2006)

I'd like to add some thoughts about organic vs non organic. In another thread I wrote that we are lucky to shop at a local store that sells only organic fruits and veggies and than 99% of the rest of our groceries are organic. We buy this way because we feel so strongly to put non pesticide non gmo items into our bodies and that of our 2 year old son as well as helping to restore natural soil to our earth. We are both fortunate and privilaged to be able to shop this way. But, we have also made tradeoffs, we don't eat out, we don't go to the movies, buy things that are frivilous, we live in a small house, and other things that are limited to our single income.

The amount of pesticides that build up in children's bodies due to thier small size and how much they eat is enormous. I think that as a society we are finding out the effects of what pesticides are doing to our bodies with cancer and other disease. Women's bodies are affected next because we tend to have more fat cells, more chemicals get stored there. Also, our land is being destroyed due to non organic farming.

If you live in an area where there are no stores that carry organic, could you grow your own? could you talk with some small farmers or find some farmers near you that do farm organic and then set up a co-op with other people in your community? Could you shop bulk on line with other people in your family or community?

I think it all boils down to what you are concerened about and what you are interested in changing if anything at all. I think that if more people demanded organic more would have to be produced and the cost would come down. of course that would take awhile. But, I don't shop at a regular grocery store because our food bill would actually be MORE expensive than shopping at a natural foods store. That is because we are vegan and the veggie type foods as well as organic veggies are horrible and terribly expensive. So we shop at the natural foods store and our bill is smaller. Sometimes I feel like part of the problem because I don't shop and demand better food at a mainstream grocery store but that is where I realize my privelage comes in. There is a lot to grapple with when it comes to this issue. but there is more to it than just organic- it is peoples lives at stake, ours, farmers, and our earths future too.

I have a friend who is the mother of 2 kids and her husband and they live on one income and she spends $50 a week on organic fruits veggies and groceries. She cooks from scratch and is also vegan.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I think the term organic has gotten diluted every since it became an FDA certification process. Any processed food labeled organic is a waste of money. To me that's the biggest gimmick of marketing. Not that you shouldn't ever, ever eat processed food but there are so many loopholes when it comes to processed food that the term organic doesn't usually mean all that much.

I do think you lower your food bill automatically when you prepare food at home and not do packaged covenience or take out. One dinner is also usually turned into two lunches. Our chickens are used thoroughly. Usually for 2 dinners and the carcass eventually becomes chicken stock. We buy things in season by belonging to a CSA. I'm hoping to finally get a deep freeze so we can save tons of money by buying a whole pig and a 1/4 of a cow.

I prefer local and organic, then local, then non-local organic, then non local conventional for things. I can get most things within my first two choices. A lot of farms around here practice organic farming but can't afford to be certified.

I think someone early in thread hit it on the nail when they said you really have to change your whole way of thinking about food to make the committment to local and/or organic. Organic produce flown into Vermont in the middle of January or July for that matter from South America to me defeats the whole purpose of going organic. How can it be sustainable practices to be wasting all that jet fuel? I try to plan meals seasonally and think of cooking more than one meal at a time.

Also, Americans spend less on food in relation to income than any other Western country. I value good food it's worth it to me to make room in my budget and sacrifice other things to make sure my family is eating right. I know not everyone can do that. All I ask is that everyone try to feed their families the best they can and be mindful of what you're eating.

There is food elitism but that goes into Organic being a sexy marketing term and restaurants that are places to see and be seen rather than actually eating. I never really associate that with MDC to be honest.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
For pretty much the same price you can get a much better quality product. I would only consider it "classist" if one was considerably more expensive when people start the eye rollin'. Otherwise it's just a matter of poor choices, which can be found in ANY class.

Cheeto's

Ingredients
Enriched corn meal (Corn meal, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, and Folic Acid), Vegetable Oil (Contains One or More of the Following: Corn, Soybean, or Sunflower Oil), Whey, Salt, Cheddar Cheese (Cultured Milk, Salt, Enzymes), *Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil*, Maltodextrin, Disodium Phosphate, Sour Cream (Cultured Cream, Nonfat Milk), Artificial Flavor, *Monosodium Glutamate*, Lactc Acid, *Artificial Colors (Including Yellow 6)*, and Citric Acid.

Pirates Booty:

Ingredients
Corn Meal, Rice, Rice and/or Sunflower Oil, Aged Cheddar Cheese (No Fat Milk, Salt, Cheese Cultures, Enzymes), Whey and Low Fat Buttermilk.

What is inherently unhealthy about Pirates Booty?

It's basically junk food. It has very little nutritional value.

It's also extremely expensive compared to Chee-Tos or whatever puffed cheesy thing the stores have these days. Hence the classism remark.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
It's basically junk food. It has very little nutritional value.

It's also extremely expensive compared to Chee-Tos or whatever puffed cheesy thing the stores have these days. Hence the classism remark.


Actually Pirate's Booty is $1.49 at Trader Joe's and about $1.69 at Whole Foods. Unfortunately the same Pirate's Booty is sometimes $3.00 at a "regular" grocery store. Maybe that has something to do with demand there and perhaps it has to do with the big grocery chains being tight with the big food companies (who are they? Quaker? P & G? i'm drawing a blank)
Aren't Cheetos the same or more than $1.49 ?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Well, I don't recall exactly, but around $1.50 sounds about right when I checked at my local health food store, but the package was quite a bit smaller than what I recall Cheetos being. I don't buy Cheetos on a regular basis but I think WalMart or Target sell generic ones for around the same price, but a quite a bit bigger bag.

I hope you aren't taking my statements personally... I didn't mean anyone specific when I said there was a classist element. I'm sure you are not being classist by buying Pirate's Booty.







I just meant I thought that element was there for some people. And, personally I feel products like that are just the health food equivalent of the junk food I see at regular stores... the lesser of two evils, essentially.

We have crap food sometimes just like anyone so I don't think there's anything wrong with it... I was just really surprised at the number of foods at the health food stores with essentially no nutritional value. Many products are almost identical to regular stores ("organic" pop tarts... sweetened mandarin orange slices... etc.). I guess that's just what the demand is for.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

There's no way that we could afford to get everything organic, but we do try to get as much as possible - especially in things that matter the most. Since we're omni's and traditional food-types it's very important to not only get organic animal products (because pesticide residues are more concentrated the higher up the food chain you go), but the 100% grassfed/pastured ones. I buy directly from the farmer which saves us a little bit of money, but it's still quite a bit more expensive than the cheapest stuff I can get from the store, but well worth it from more than just a nutritional standpoint. We also place a higher priority on our raw milk, butter, and cheese.

Once I get those then we're faced with the dilema of how to spread the rest of the food budget out over what's left. At that point I usually try to get the dirty dozen organic and go conventional for the rest. Then I employ a produce wash (I think you can even just use white vinegar) for all conventional veggies.

We usually have very simple meals, but for us it's worth it. We're by no means perfect and some weeks are better than others, but always figure that to whatever degree we can do so is always an improvement over doing nothing at all.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
I hope you aren't taking my statements personally... I didn't mean anyone specific when I said there was a classist element. I'm sure you are not being classist by buying Pirate's Booty.







I just meant I thought that element was there for some people. And, personally I feel products like that are just the health food equivalent of the junk food I see at regular stores... the lesser of two evils, essentially.

We have crap food sometimes just like anyone so I don't think there's anything wrong with it... I was just really surprised at the number of foods at the health food stores with essentially no nutritional value. Many products are almost identical to regular stores ("organic" pop tarts... sweetened mandarin orange slices... etc.). I guess that's just what the demand is for.

If you are referring to me, i'm not taking anything personally







Just enjoying a friendly discussion on a day at home with sick kiddos.
My kids aren't into Pirate's Booty actually. I think it tastes pretty good but don't buy it myself. My point was just that it is a world away from Cheetos because of the chemical element. I agree that neither are very healthy but for most people Pirate's Booty will not cause harm and Cheetos is harmful for all bodies because of it's ingredients. Will it kill us? Probably not (at least not immediately, lol) but yellow dye and MSG are two very harmful ingredients that do not belong in the human body.
I say all of this with some humor and with friendly intention


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Despite being more expensive by weight, it was the cheapest block of white cheddar in the store, because it was small. I'd go organic on cheese, but there's just no way. We go through a lot of it around here.

us too. we are lucky right now to have the income to slurge on expensive cheese. But I love cheese (basically grew my two babies on it while pregnant!) so I'd go without meat to get cheese.

Told ya I am weird ; )

I'd absolutely love to eat locally made aged cheese.

This thread did remind me to sign up for a CSA. I was too late last year but figured that January, they MUST still have room!


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
It has become very clear to me that organic and natural foods are the newest marking trend or fad. Eating organics and natural food products that are packaged in appealingly natural-looking bags (like you would find at Trader Joes or Whole Foods) are all part of a "fashion/lifesyle fad". You will find moms in yoga pants wandering the asiles of Trader Joes with a curly haired child in the cart who is sucking on a rice cake---she is there to buy her organic soy milk and Pirate booty and frozen Nancy's quiche. On the way home she stops at Starbucks to get her low fat vanilla soy latte double whip. She feels infinately more stylish than the minivan driving mom who shops at the regular grocery store with all of the colorful mass marketed packaging. Even if the first mom is only buying chips and sodas at the Trader Joes, and the other mom is buying veggies (organic or not) and brown rice, the first mom just feels better about her choices and wears them proudly like a new handbag. It is a packaging and style issue--she is riding the cultural trend that is afoot right now, the natural food-style fad.

This observation comes from a person (me!) who lived in San Francisco for 15 years, across the street from one of the first "natural grocery" stores (Real Foods). I ate there and shopped there everyday, and saw the movement growing, and appreciated what they had to offer--but also knew enough to look beneath the bricks and mortar and see the smart marketing that went along with the cloth grocery bags. They were selling not just food, but a carefully crafted "look" that consumers wanted to be a part of. That look has now finally gone mainstream, and it is being packaged and marketed for mass consumption.


That's why its so important to read ingredient labels.

Foods labeled as "health food" can still have unacceptable amounts of sugar, and even transfat. But because it says "natural" or "preservative free" or even organic, people think its perfectly fine because its "natural".

Though the Bay Area has probably hundreds of health food stores, I think there are only very few true health foods stores left. Trader Joes, IMO are not a health food stores. They have better quality conventional foods, but very few true health food.

As I stated in previous thread the affordability (and availability) of organic food is regional. If you're in California, in my experience organic produce (produce period!) is cheaper than in other areas of the country. I don't think some people realize how much more expensive some areas are.

In your profile, I doubt people who shop at WFS or any other HFS would be caught DEAD at a Starbucks. I see many people at my Oakland, Berkeley, El Cerrito, etc HFS that doesnt fit your profile. Maybe in the Marina (San Francisco) but not in my neighborhoods.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
having just been to Henry's where the majority were talking on their pink razors.









LOL, I love my pink razor! I don't have a landline so its the only phone I have (besides my work number). I feel slightly offended.

But you see how calling specific things out can hurt feelings on MCD? Just because something is mainstream, like pink phones, BMWs, and new, name brand clothes, don't assume, no one here has these things or uses them.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maman*Musique* 
I wish people would take some of the focus off of the organic vs non organic debate and work on getting companies to remove toxic dyes and dangerous preservatives from our foods. That is a much more dire situation needing immediate attention, in my humble opinion









I agree!!


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## wife&mommy (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
Well, I didn't want to highjack another thread. So I thought I should start another. I also want to say to the OP of other thread, I mean not disrespect. But in a effort to understand and perhaps encourage we share instead of passing judgement. Ok get to the point.
I try my best to have my family eat well. An we are on a thin thin budget. I got the feeling of almost an elitist attitude towards those who do not eat totally organic or shop exclusively at those kinds of stores. I live near whole foods, but shopping there blows my budget out of the water.
I can't be the only one with financial challenges to eating organic. Is there an elitist attitude about how we eat, is this in my head? The judgement seems to come so quick towards those who don't. Almost a belittling for those who don't by all the "right foods" and receive public assistance.
By the way, if this is all imagined and in my head people help me out. Tell me your secrets to affordable organic eating
Really lets discuss this


I do try to eat mostly organic but I don't look down on people who don't because I do totally understand that it is expensive. I think its worth it and cut other areas in the budget because of this but I realize not everyone can or is willing to do that. Don't worry about it! Just do what is best for you and your family.


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
If that's the case I won't be eating very many different types of vegetables. And I'll be eating the standard Northern European poor person's diet of pickled cabbage, beet soup, and potatos all winter.

Exactly. So you see how elitist it is for American consumers to demand a variety of cheaply priced, out-of-season oil-dependent foods year round.

I'm not poor (my family of 4 earns at least twice the U.S. poverty level), but like those Northern Europeans I do know how to eat well poor--You subsist on diet of reliable staples and if you happen to have any extra money you add something delicious.

When you buy a thing like food you are never just buying the THING. You are also buying the environmental, social and personal side effects. In the case of the cheap industrial food that makes up the typical American diet people are specifically buying environmental degredation, foreign oil dependence and associated wars, and diabetes.

I don't think it's elitist to wish everyone had a clean environment, peace, and good health. I understand that if people are starving they will eat anything, but as a society Americans are generally rich. We don't have to eat so destructively. We seem to do it mainly because circumstances have made the most destructive calories the cheapest to buy.

The people who complain they can't buy good food where they live are telling the truth. It's well known that poor people pay higher prices for everything, often because stores won't locate in their neighborhoods or because they can only buy in smaller quanitities which are more expensive per unit. in some places there are even social justice projects with the aim of making healthful food affordable in poor neighborhoods.

So perhaps it is elitist to insist on an organic label on all foods, but in general social justice calls for far, far greater awareness of what we are eating and how it got on our tables.

--AmyB


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

Haven't read all posts yet.. but wanted to say...

I am always shocked by the prices at Whole Foods. We live by a fabulous grocery store, where I buy a combo of organic and non-organic. Since it is California many of the "regular" grocery stores stocks lots of specialty health foods. That said, sometimes we go to Whole Foods just for an adventure, and the prices are WAY higher than the same product at the grocery store. Sometimes I feel like it is similar to shopping at Tiffany's - you are paying a premium for the label of WF. Around here we lovingly call it "Whole Paycheck."


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## Samjm (Mar 12, 2005)

Interesting thread!

For us, our priorities are making food from scratch, followed by buying locally, and then buying organic.

We do not buy Annie's Organic Mac n Cheese, nor do we buy Kraft Mac n Cheese. If we want mac n Cheese, I make it from scratch (and without Velveeta







).

For us, it is healthier and cheaper to cook from scratch, using good quality ingredients (whether they be organic or not). We smoke our own meat, grind our own beef, bake our own bread, make our own peanut butter, yogurt etc etc.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
It's basically junk food. It has very little nutritional value.

Sure, it may not have much nutritional value, but there is nothing in it that is inherently *un*healthy. Comparatively, almost EVERY ingredient in cheetos IS unhealthy. Not just unhealthy, but dangerous.

They both may be junky snack foods, but if you are going to eat snack foods, why not pick one that has relatively healthy ingredients?

Quote:

It's also extremely expensive compared to Chee-Tos or whatever puffed cheesy thing the stores have these days. Hence the classism remark.
No, around here they work out to be about the same price.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maman*Musique* 
Aren't Cheetos the same or more than $1.49 ?

Yes, way more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maman*Musique* 
My point was just that it is a world away from Cheetos because of the chemical element. I agree that neither are very healthy but for most people Pirate's Booty will not cause harm and Cheetos is harmful for all bodies because of it's ingredients.

I agree.

Would you look at someone funny if you saw them licking a glob of hydrogenated vegetable oil? I would. That's what I see when I see someone eating cheetos. Doritos, on the other hand, are perfectly fine.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Whole foods is really expensive for somethings, but when you have kids that are gluten, dairy, egg free, it's the only place I've found those sort of things, even though I make almost everything myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beka1977* 
Haven't read all posts yet.. but wanted to say...

I am always shocked by the prices at Whole Foods. We live by a fabulous grocery store, where I buy a combo of organic and non-organic. Since it is California many of the "regular" grocery stores stocks lots of specialty health foods. That said, sometimes we go to Whole Foods just for an adventure, and the prices are WAY higher than the same product at the grocery store. Sometimes I feel like it is similar to shopping at Tiffany's - you are paying a premium for the label of WF. Around here we lovingly call it "Whole Paycheck."


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

Really I think the problem is bigger than organic vs. non organic.

The mass food industry is based on capitalism, which isn't always a bad thing but when the love of money triumphs over love of people, problems do occur. I think that really there are way too many prepackaged foods/processed foods available nowdays. Companies can make these products cheaply- they can sit on the shelf forever- and the profit margin from such items are great. Well with whole foods( produce, dairy, meat) the shelf life is an issue. *Foods* *are suppose to go bad, if you don't eat them in a proper time frame*. I do buy some organic produce, but not everything I buy is organic (and I still eat)







.

So really I think a person eating non-organic whole foods per se is better off than one who is eating prepackaged "organic" goods of cookies, cakes, etc.

Basically I think we are all doing the best we can in raising our children. Food is only part of the very broad spectrum of parenting. But one question I always wondered about, whenever I see Whole Foods it tends to be in a more affluent section of town- why is that?


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## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

I think the slow food movement makes the most sense to me. Real, true wealth, IMO is having the time to find good fresh whole food and make it from scratch. With one or both parents working full time outside the home, it just isn't feasable to do this for most people. But it just may be the price of good health to have a SAHP doing the cooking. To me this would be real affluence, not the Mercedes/big house/WfM lifestyle.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barose* 







LOL, I love my pink razor! I don't have a landline so its the only phone I have (besides my work number). I feel slightly offended.

But you see how calling specific things out can hurt feelings on MCD? Just because something is mainstream, like pink phones, BMWs, and new, name brand clothes, don't assume, no one here has these things or uses them.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

















don't mean to derail the topic.
I had no idea that pink razors were phones. i just didnt put the two together. When I first read the original comment about the pink razors I thought what an odd topic for women to be discussing and how could that be pretentious? I shave with pink razors







:
Now I get it.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

One more thing when did this topic get moved to Nutrition and good eating. i see this more as a philosophical debate that is more befitting TAO.
Oh well just my two cents
Moderators know best


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## BurgundyElephant (Feb 17, 2006)

When I said that organic food is the price of food - I meant, that is what food *should* cost. You're paying a farmer to raise a chicken, feed it for a year (or however long), butcher it, and send it to a market. When you're buying organic produce, you're paying for the higher labor of the people in the field blowing off bugs with water or picking them off by hand. Things grow smaller so they have less to sell. Ideally it's grown close to you so it doesn't come from overseas - you have to make that decision as to whether or not you'd rather have something that has pesticides or whether you want to pay for the fossil fuels that got the boat here.

If one shifts ones mindset and DOESN'T look at what "regular" food costs, you get used to the price. I don't shop at Wal-Mart - I have no idea what stuff costs there. While DH and I have differing reasons as to why we won't support them, we are at least agreed.

He grew up on an apple orchard and has a definite difference in the way he views organic produce. He claims you can't avoid overspray. I, therefore, tend to avoid organics from a company that also does non-organic produce. But let's face it, more produce at the "big" supermarket level is probably packed in shared environments. So pick your battles. But I prefer not to feed my kids pesticides.























Feingold means they can't have any artificial colors, dyes, etc. My 1st dd also can't have dairy. DS has soy intolerances, as well as dairy. Produce is good, protein is good. We eat free-range veg. fed eggs because I grew up around chicken farmers and I cannot stomach the thought of eating "regular" eggs.

We also have a regular, small freezer. I can fit a lot in there and it is amazing what removing excess packaging can do for space! If you don't have a food dehydrator, I suggest you get one. You can get them at thrift stores or on craigslist if you keep your eye out. It does take up space but gets a lot of use in the summer and fall. Last year a neighbor gave me two brown grocery bags full of Japanese Pears.









Sorry for the long post. It is an interesting discussion! I think we have a whole foods here but I've never been to is. I read a magazine article some time ago where they were talking about how much money that chain is making and it blew my mind. They are obviously a business! I think PCC is a co-op but I'm not sure. There is another little co-op here but I haven't been to it.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
But one question I always wondered about, whenever I see Whole Foods it tends to be in a more affluent section of town- why is that?

I've seen WF in many different neighborhoods. The Bay Area in itself is more affluent, but I see may different people from all walks of life shop at the various stores. Now I've notice the quality of the stores depend on the location though. But thats true with most chain supermarkets.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I don't judge people for not being able afford to buy organic. I do, however, know specific people who say they can't afford it, but they can afford expensive face creams and razors or pre-packaged foods and fast food or alcohol and lottery tickets and coffee. It's the lack of insight into the choices they're making that seems hypocritical to me.

Again, I'm not talking about people who truly can't afford it, but rather people I personally know who have made certain choices in their lives that make it then impossible for them to see that they actually could afford to make different choices.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
I don't judge people for not being able afford to buy organic. I do, however, know specific people who say they can't afford it, but they can afford expensive face creams and razors or pre-packaged foods and fast food or alcohol and lottery tickets and coffee. It's the lack of insight into the choices they're making that seems hypocritical to me.

Again, I'm not talking about people who truly can't afford it, but rather people I personally know who have made certain choices in their lives that make it then impossible for them to see that they actually could afford to make different choices.

Just because someone has something thats expensive, that doesnt mean they purchased it or at least at the price you think they paid.


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## granolamomma (Jul 11, 2005)

I would never judge someone for not being able to afford organic, because I assume you are doing what's best for your family within your means and priorities. But I think parenting brings out the primal mamabear in all of us. So it's hard for me to not judge someone who has a bare fridge and all sorts of square crap in the pantry - in my passionate mind I equate it with that parent not loving their child.

But I try to remember that it's about education, not love. And when I get judged by a mama for my views on vaccinating or homebirth, I know she's probably just circling her cubs also.









(I bet that didn't even make sense. I'm sorry - I am wicked tired. :yawning: )


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beka1977* 
I am always shocked by the prices at Whole Foods.

I understand what you mean. But, although I'm shocked by some items, I'm happily surprised by others.

I was at Whole Foods just this afternoon. Two of the items on my list were bell peppers and yogurt. The only available bell peppers were conventional ones, and they were about $1 more per pound than the conventional bell peppers at the regular supermarket.

The yogurts, though, were two for $1, which is half the price at the regular supermarket.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barose* 
Just because someone has something thats expensive, that doesnt mean they purchased it or at least at the price you think they paid.

Or that they even want it.

I got "custody" of the family minivan in the divorce. I owe 9K on a van that's six years old and has over 80K miles on it.

Since it's hardly worth anything, I can't even afford to trade it in on something else.


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## little-g (May 30, 2006)

I am currently trying to incorporate more organic food into our diet right now, but could not/would not buy all organic food. I agree with some PP that things like organic cookies etc seem strange. I have seen organic bottled water - true. I dont get it (maybe there is good reason? Im just not sure).

I think some wholefoods - in the sense of plain, untampered with, natural foods can be bought relatively cheaply from most regular stores. What blows my mind is the cost of a lot of the processed foods like cheesy things, flavourings, seasoning mixes, etc etc. Having been a bit negligent lately with my shopping I am currently in the process of re-stocking our pantry with basic wholefoods. I have found by cutting out all the extras I had slipped into buying, it reduced my bill a lot. Like, no cans of chill & tomato tuna, just plain tuna. No packaged, pre-shaved parmesan, just a block of parmesan. I've decided to forgo all the myriad of small condiments/sauces etc that I used to buy that are actually packed with sugars and additives. I used to cook what I thought was a healthy, nutritious meal from scratch but then serve it with sauce that was full of cr*p. And those kinds of things add up the $$.

I agree some people have a thing about being 'organic' and it becomes kind of elitist, but I personally think that more people tend towards this way of eating for their health and their family's health, and also for political and environmental reasons (think global, act local etc). I think this because I myself have changed my way of thinking about eating. Trying to eat like this now has nada to do with how someone views me, and more to do with trying to make a positive change.


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

I didn't want to read all the pages (sorry!) just wanted to put that dp & I live well below the poverty line and eat exclusively organic produce, soy products and grains. I have a huge stock of non-organic beans, chickpeas, etc. but plan on replenishing them with organic when they run out.

It's more about priority, I think. We don't have a car. We rarely buy consumer goods, when we do they're often used or the cheapest kind you can get (nothing luxurious) without being sweatshop made. We get as much as we can for free. Most of our money gets spent on food, bike parts or books, and we're good with that.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

AGH!

I have been following this thread and just... ack. This spring, I'm growing my own #$%@ing vegetables and freezing them! So there!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barose* 
Just because someone has something thats expensive, that doesnt mean they purchased it or at least at the price you think they paid.

In these cases, I do know what they pay because they're my office mates, for example, and they talk about what they pay for things, and they're sort of pushy that I should shop where they shop rather that at the natural foods co-operative. For this reason, I also know how much they earn, basically. One can afford McDonald's breakfasts, but she whines that organic is so overpriced that she can't afford it. She's making a choice, even if she doesn't see it that way. That's her choice, but she can't pretend that she can't afford it.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
I don't judge people for not being able afford to buy organic. I do, however, know specific people who say they can't afford it, but they can afford expensive face creams and razors or pre-packaged foods and fast food or alcohol and lottery tickets and coffee. It's the lack of insight into the choices they're making that seems hypocritical to me.

Again, I'm not talking about people who truly can't afford it, but rather people I personally know who have made certain choices in their lives that make it then impossible for them to see that they actually could afford to make different choices.

See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? Not knocking you, but are you totally correct in how you live? Do you treat all people equitably? Is your heart completely without malice? Do you walk everywhere instead of drive? Is your house a total "green home"? Are you off the grid? Did you bf or did you not?
(These questions are directed at you, simply rhetorical)

People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?

What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Y'know, I get what you're saying Yinsum, but that is not what Ruby Wild said. she said she knew people *who said they couldn't AFFORD it*, but made other expensive luxury purchases. That's different from somebody saying, "Organic foods are not a high priority for me and I'd rather buy fancy face cream," and then another person saying, "You could afford it if you wanted to and had your priorities straight. Don't you know the world is going to heck in a handbasket because of luxury face creams?!" That's an organic advocate being judgmental. The first person said it wasn't a high priority not that they couldn't afford it. If somebody says they just don't think it's that important in their life, well, that's a choice and if somebody judges that then that's a big fat judgement.

On the other hand if somebody says "It's too expensive. I can't afford it," and then goes out and buys a bunch of luxury items then that doesn't jibe with what they said about affordablilty. The person is not being honest either about their priorities or about staying within their budget. I don't know if that's what rubs other organic advocates the wrong way, but if somebody said that to me that would rub me the wrong way. I actually can't recall anybody saying to me (outside MDC) that they can't afford organic foods (it just doesn't come up), but if they did I would do as I did in my previous post to this thread and offer some suggestions for making it more affordable. If a person doesn't want to eat organic that's her choice, but if she says she can't afford to and somebody offers her some ways to make it more affordable and she feels judged, well...

here are some analogies --

breastfeeding vs formula feeding.

mama 1 says, "It's just too hard. I don't have enough milk. I don't have enough support. I'm going to formula feed."
mama 2 offers support, coaching, LLL and LC contacts.

should mama 1 feel judged?

mama 3 says, "It's too hard. I can't do it."
mama 4 says, "You could if you wanted to. It's what's best for your baby. If you really cared about your baby you would do it."

If I was mama 3 in the second scenario, sure I'd feel judged.

mama 5 says, "I've made the choice to formula feed. That's what we've decided on. Breastfeeding is just not for me."
mama 6 says, "Well, if you have second thoughts I can give you some resources."

judgement? I don't think so.

does any of that make any sense or is it as clear as mud? I think when somebody says "It's too expensive. I can't afford it," people hearing that sometimes ASSume that the first person would like to be able to buy organic food, but sometimes the first person really just does not care that much and just needs to make it clear. It's all about priorities.

Organic food is probably a higher priority for me than it is for a lot of people. That doesn't mean I judge them. There are a lot of things that are a higher/lower priority for me than they are for other people. Dressing up nicely, having my hair done, having just the right make-up, keeping a really nice house -- all low priorities for me, although I would like to work on the housekeeping. I really don't care much how I look and am usually in jeans and a sweatshirt or t-shirt. Going to church, being involved in lots of civic groups/clubs -- low priorities. Eating organic foods, supporting local farmers and local businesses, moving toward more energy sustainability by running our vehices on biodiesel -- high priorities. Do you judge me for these things?

I think we just need to be clearer about where things lie in our value system/priorities and then it becomes clearer. Obviously, obviously, obviously almost everybody's top priorites are keeping their families fed (on whatever) and clothed and housed, but beyond that it starts to get greyer and more individual.

I don't know, I guess I'll post this thing before I lose my nerve. I certainly am not JUDGING anybody on their food choices, but if anybody wants some tips on making organic more affordable or is interested in why organic foods are important to me and other people I would be happy to dig up some more links.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Comparatively, almost EVERY ingredient in cheetos IS unhealthy. Not just unhealthy, but dangerous.

y'know, they actually make "Natural" Cheetos now with organic corn meal. I bought some for my kids in Target the other day when they were whining for a snack







: .


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? <snip> What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.

You know, the cultures that perform FGM on their daughters, think they're doing what's best for their families.

The Branch Davidians likely thought they were doing what was best for their families.

Lots of parents who use the Ferber method, think it's the best thing for their families.

I think that accepting whatever people choose to do, without question, is not conducive to progress. It allows people to remain ignorant of better methods/choices.

Of course, whenever you point a finger, three point back at you. It's entirely possible that someone who mutilates their daughter's genitals could teach me something about another aspect of life. We all learn from each other.


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## SageR (Jun 12, 2005)

I think it's really interesting that a thread started to talk about feeling judged for not buying organic should have so many responses of people being really judegmental about people who _do_ buy organic food







:

The method of growing and producing foods we call "organic" is nothing new. This is the way people have farmed for almost all of human history. Convenience foods and the use of petrochemicals in farming is new. So please don't assume that people who seek out organic foods are just being trendy. If your image of someone who buys organic foods is some polished suburbanite stepping out of an suv to buy processed foods at a mega chain, you are being prejudiced. I am sure I am not the only member of this board who was eating organic rice and natural peanut butter 25 years ago, when it was decidedly _not_ cool at all!

There is absolutely no question, when comparing organic whole foods and conventionally produced whole foods, that organics are a better choice - there is debate on the nutrition aspect but there is no debate on how detrimental petrochemical fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides are to all living organisms. So, just because some of us are aware of this does not make us snobs. It is not elitest to want your family and your world to be healthy.

As far as I am aware, those of us who practice "alternative" lifestyles do not have any higher a rate of emotional distress, low self esteem, or tha habit of transference than any other subsector of the population (and really, why would "we"







) So you feeling inferior is not a result of me feeling inferior and choosing to go do something that will make you feel bad and thus make me feel good.

Yes, many of us have better access to organic foods than others, whether it be because of location, income, other lifestyles particulars, or any combination of the above. Should I not use my purchasing power to support an industry I think is morally, ethically, and environmentally sound because others cannot?

The last thing that goes through my mind when I shop at my co -op and farmers market is "Boy do I feel superior". It is something more along the lines of "Boy, do I feel very, very fortunate that I know what healthy food is and I have the ability to get it. I wish more people had the ability to make choices the way I can."


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## avendesora (Sep 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
I know, I just think that it is assumed that eveyone could afford all organic if they'd just budget their money better.

Hmmm, partly true. I think more people could afford more organic if they budgeted differently. While I don't judge individuals, I'm happy to judge America as a whole. When I think about how much money gets spent at Starbucks every day, or about how much money gets spent on Coca-cola, for example, it drives me nuts. I see many people at the grocery store with carts full of premium crap: Coke, Cottonelle, Lucky Charms, Huggies, Hamburger Helper... are these the people who "can't" afford organics? (I use quotes because I absolutely recognize that there are people who cannot afford organic - but these are not the people I'm talking about now.) Or is "I can't afford it" just a common excuse for these people? My SIL who's DH earns well into six figures "can't" afford organic. But they go to restaurants all the time, have an generous-sized house, buy premium wines, you get my point.

I agree that a lot of this is about education. Many people don't know how dire the situation is.

But sometimes its about selfishness. While I believe that most people are basically good, I know that we all are fighting our own spiritual battles. Selfishness is a huge spiritual battle for many people, and it's always sad to see someone losing. Some people choose fancy clothes, etc., over organics, because they WANT fancy clothes, and that's all there is to it for them.

It's downright frustrating and saddening to see the future of our world in so much trouble because people are so overwhelmed by the onslaught of materialism and commercialism that they can't even see that there is a spiritual battle going on, and that they're losing.

I'll admit, right here, that my spiritual battle is lack of humility.







I'm working on it, but obviously I haven't gotten that far!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
I think the term organic has gotten diluted every since it became an FDA certification process. Any processed food labeled organic is a waste of money. To me that's the biggest gimmick of marketing. Not that you shouldn't ever, ever eat processed food but there are so many loopholes when it comes to processed food that the term organic doesn't usually mean all that much. ... I think someone early in thread hit it on the nail when they said you really have to change your whole way of thinking about food to make the commitment to local and/or organic. Organic produce flown into Vermont in the middle of January or July for that matter from South America to me defeats the whole purpose of going organic. How can it be sustainable practices to be wasting all that jet fuel? I try to plan meals seasonally and think of cooking more than one meal at a time.

Also, Americans spend less on food in relation to income than any other Western country. I value good food it's worth it to me to make room in my budget and sacrifice other things to make sure my family is eating right. I know not everyone can do that. All I ask is that everyone try to feed their families the best they can and be mindful of what you're eating.

There is food elitism but that goes into Organic being a sexy marketing term and restaurants that are places to see and be seen rather than actually eating. I never really associate that with MDC to be honest.

Many good points made. However, I would say that many organic non-local options aren't shipped from farther than non-organics. Organic bananas vs. conventional bananas, organic avos vs. conventional avos... all would have to be pretty far from me! I unfortunately buy a lot of food that is not local, especially in winter, because I like providing my family with variety.

Omnivore's Dilemma goes into a great conversation about the mainstreaming of organics, the dilution of the definition of organic, the industrialization of organic, etc. I can't reiterate everything Michael Pollan says, so I'll just say read it for yourself!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyB* 
Exactly. So you see how elitist it is for American consumers to demand a variety of cheaply priced, out-of-season oil-dependent foods year round. ... When you buy a thing like food you are never just buying the THING. You are also buying the environmental, social and personal side effects. In the case of the cheap industrial food that makes up the typical American diet people are specifically buying environmental degradation, foreign oil dependence and associated wars, and diabetes.

I don't think it's elitist to wish everyone had a clean environment, peace, and good health. I understand that if people are starving they will eat anything, but as a society Americans are generally rich. We don't have to eat so destructively. We seem to do it mainly because circumstances have made the most destructive calories the cheapest to buy. ... So perhaps it is elitist to insist on an organic label on all foods, but in general social justice calls for far, far greater awareness of what we are eating and how it got on our tables.

I think it's very possible to be an advocate, without being elitist or judgmental. It's about spreading education, and inspiring people to protect our earth and our health.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beka1977* 
I am always shocked by the prices at Whole Foods. ... That said, sometimes we go to Whole Foods just for an adventure, and the prices are WAY higher than the same product at the grocery store. Sometimes I feel like it is similar to shopping at Tiffany's - you are paying a premium for the label of WF. Around here we lovingly call it "Whole Paycheck."

I think everyone here on MDC buys as much organic as they can afford, or chooses to not buy organic for conscientious reasons (like choosing local over organic). What saddens me is that there are so many people who spend so much on crap, who just don't know the health effects of their food choices.

Sorry for the novel.









Aven


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
You know, the cultures that perform FGM on their daughters, think they're doing what's best for their families.

The Branch Davidians likely thought they were doing what was best for their families.

Lots of parents who use the Ferber method, think it's the best thing for their families.

I think that accepting whatever people choose to do, without question, is not conducive to progress. It allows people to remain ignorant of better methods/choices.

Of course, whenever you point a finger, three point back at you. It's entirely possible that someone who mutilates their daughter's genitals could teach me something about another aspect of life. We all learn from each other.

Ok I hoping that your analogy was simply to drive home a point and that your are not equating some extreme practices with food choices that arent from the local farms, organic or along that vain.
And Amen to figure pointing... thats along the lines of what I have been saying. In chosing to judge we should know we are equally open to the judgement of others. How does that make anyone better?
I like to believe many of us a working towards a higher good whether we know it or not. The thread started because I felt a mom was judged about her food choices and no one knew why she was buying what she was buying. But beyond that she may make poor food choices but perhaps she is raising some of the most loving kind hearted children to behold. She too could be working towards a higher good.
I can't speak for others. I believe its wonderful that there is such a great movement to bring our foods back to their intended wholeness. How can you knock that? I am however turned off by the smugness and preachiness. I want to learn and there is a way to teach.
Thank you to those who have sent informative links.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avendesora* 
Many good points made. However, I would say that many organic non-local options aren't shipped from farther than non-organics. Organic bananas vs. conventional bananas, organic avos vs. conventional avos... all would have to be pretty far from me! I unfortunately buy a lot of food that is not local, especially in winter, because I like providing my family with variety.

I agree. I've read OD. That's why I go local organic, then local non-organic, then non-local organic and then and only then non-local non organic.

My goal has been to increase consumption of local food not to only consume local food. Mainly b/c I can't live without coffee.

I just want people to mindful of where things come from and how they're made or grown. It's like yesterday I heard someone talking about free trade and how fair trade will never go through b/c people want cheap stuff. I can't help but think maybe we should be talking more about the real costs of that cheap stuff.


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
I agree. I've read OD. That's why I go local organic, then local non-organic, then non-local organic and then and only then non-local non organic.

My goal has been to increase consumption of local food not to only consume local food. Mainly b/c I can't live without coffee.

I just want people to mindful of where things come from and how they're made or grown. It's like yesterday I heard someone talking about free trade and how fair trade will never go through b/c people want cheap stuff. I can't help but think maybe we should be talking more about the real costs of that cheap stuff.

DH always says, "Wal-Mart I can't afford their cheap prices."


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyleigh33* 
It's more about priority, I think.

Our main priority is that are children are fed, hence why we personally can't afford all organic food.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I have run into this problem. it is hard to address too and hard to not take offense.

you know nobody is perfect, but some people certainly take on an elitist attitude. it really turns me OFF in so many ways. and now it's so trendy to act this way? uke

since DH died "organic" is not my priority anymore. if I even EAT that's an accomplishment some days! we are slowly getting back on track, but I have learned how petty people are over food.


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## Mamma Christi (Dec 15, 2006)

I made a thread a while back about frugality vs. organic. Since then I have started eating more healthy and whatnot. My opinion is that organic or all natural isn't necessarily as expensive as some think. Don't get me wrong, in the beginning I would see the prices at the grocery store and want to scream because I wanted it and couldn't afford it. I've found that going to a natural store that sells bulk or joining a bulk buying club can really help out. Example, here is where I got the ingredients for our dinner last night and a summary of cost:

1. A whole chicken bought directly from a farmer, it was free range and grassfed. $3/lb. I got a 2lb chicken - so $6.

2. I bought a 2 loaves of whole wheat bread from BJs (like costco or sams club) for $2.50. So $1.25 per loaf. (you could make this even cheaper by making your own bread)

3. A 'bunch' (2) of organic broccoli for approx. $2.

4. Mushrooms $1.50

5. Fresh grated Parmesan cheese $6 total. I bought it in a chunk and grated at home.

So *if* I had made a meal using ALL of that it would have cost $18. However, I only used 2 slices of bread (for breadcrumbs), maybe 2-3tbls. of parm. cheese, 1/4 of all that broccoli, half of the mushrooms, and just the breasts of the chicken. I would approximate the cost of the meal at about $2.50-$3.50. And what was I able to make for *all natural* (the only non organic ingredient was the bread which was still didn't have HFCS or sugars in it)$3?

Here was the recipe I wrote up:
Ingredients:
-Olive oil
-Mushrooms
-Broccoli
-Breadcrumbs
-Chicken breast
-Parmesan cheese.

Directions:
-Preheat oven to 425.
-Pound chicken breasts until flat.
-Place breadcrumbs in a bowl.
-Roll chicken in breadcrumbs (I also added Flax to the crumbs, and they were Italian breadcrumbs.)
-In a pan put a little olive oil. Put in mushrooms, cook for a little bit and then add broccoli. Cook until broccoli is tender yet crisp.
-Put mixture from pan in a bowl and add Parm. cheese.
-Put mixture in center of flattened chicken breast and roll, place each piece of chicken on a greased baking sheet with the open seam down.
-Sprinkle a little Parm. cheese on the tops.
-Bake chicken until outside starts to brown, then broil an additional two minutes

It made a dinner meal for me and my fiancee, and I still had a piece left over today for my lunch. So 2-3 meals for $3.
It's all about really digging deep and finding the good prices/deals and working with what you have to work with.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Thank you Pyratekk. See there is a loving way to teach.


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## Mamma Christi (Dec 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
Thank you Pyratekk. See there is a loving way to teach.

No problem! It's just that the food ended up tasty so I had to find a way to sneak in my recipe _somewhere_! Just kidding (^_^). I think that the common misconception is that organics are always expensive. First of all, it really has more to do with the region you live in. Places like California have cheaper organics than, let's say, New York. This has to do with space to grow things.

Also, if you are looking for organic veggies, talk to other women you know in your area or call someone and see if somewhere near you there is a community garden. Basically everyone contributes and then once things grow they divide the veggies and whatnot amongst the group.

Oh, and for *most* things it will be cheaper to get them at an actual natural foodstore rather than your regular grocer - I learned this the hard way.

You can also go here:
http://www.organickitchen.com/
And use the links to find local farmers, Vineyards, and some online marketplaces.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This is a difficult subject for me and my family. We are low income. We used to be very high income, then no income, and now "low income". I am lucky in so many ways. First, I know how to cook. I do not mean that I can make a wicked hot dish. I mean that I know how to take a few cups of wheat berries and make them into bread. I did not learn this overnight. It took years of experimenting to get here. So now, even though we are a dual-working family, I can make most of our meals from whole ingredients. I can buy organically (I would say about 90%) for much less than the average family can. And that is living in a very rural and cut-off area, People are talking 100+ miles to the nearest WFs. I would say we are 5 hours away and that is only if there is a WF in Green Bay. Obviously not practical. I ahve never even been in one. I have had to get friendly with our local farmers. They are not certified but are "organic" in my book. We barter for a CSA share that keeps us rolling in veggies and fruits for the summer with lots leftover to can soups. We have a great co-op. They do sell Pirate's Booty which I have never even tried, but they luckily devote more than 50% of thier space to whole foods. There is nothing "glamorous" about walking around in St. Vinnie's yoga pants with my curly-topped (unpoo-ed) kid with a reused mason jar of bulk pinto beans....... Organic gets expensive when processing comes into the equation. I do not even go down those aisles. I cannot afford to. Dd does not even know about crackers and cookies. I have not figured out how to make them and cannot afford to buy them. But I can feed my family of 3 (and 2 cats) with frequent dinner and overnight guests on 90% organic for less than $300/month.

So sometimes I feel like an elitist because family and friends think we are rolling in it to buy this stuff. Sometimes I feel poor when I am trying to make an entire meal out of black-eyed peas and rice. And sometimes I feel irked when I get the "it must be nice......." line when I know full well we are living on MUCH less income than the person who is saying it. But then I try to remind myself that I could not just step off my porch 10 years ago and feed my fanily on organics for as little as I do now. It took learning A LOT about cooking from scratch (which takes TIME), learning how to organize my culinary pursuits, making friends and learning how to barter with farmers, accumulating and putting to use canning and freezing supplies, and teaching my family that a pile of cut-up veggies from a farm down the road with some homemade dip is YUMMIER than Cheetos. Not easy. It takes time.

So. I do not know the answer to the bigger question here. We are all on a journey. Some started before others. Some live in areas that make it easier. Some have more disposable income and/or time on thier hands. Some have more know-how (which I almost think is the biggest benefit). Everyone feels defensive because we are not just talking about your own personal health and budget. Everyone's eating choices effects everyone else one way or another. So it is personal. As much as big business does not want us to know that........


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
Our main priority is that are children are fed, hence why we personally can't afford all organic food.

Now that's unfair, I think I quantified my statement. I said that eating organic was a priority for us, so we sacrificed other things that we might have instead in favour of buying organic. All I intended with my post was an anecdotal example of people who you would THINK couldn't afford organics based on income, but do, and explained how it can be done.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Sorry, I haven't read this thread from the beginning, though I will when I have time. I think this is a good topic, which is obvious from the number of posts.

I understand the perception of elitism because I was there. I grew up poor, and to me, organic was some sort of artsy, fartsy specialized way of throwing money away. I'm a single mom, living off the bones my ex throws me while I finish my dissertation, so I'm back to being poor again. But this time, I try to buy organic, pasture-fed, almost exclusively. The reason I think people who eat organically seem to "judge" people who don't is because there really is good reason to eat organically. There is a difference between "judging" and "using one's judgement". I want to appeal to the latter when I recommend eating organically. The rest, imo, is perception. I agree with a pp who said that just by eating differently, we set ourselves apart, and therefore perceived as "elitist".

I also just read Fast Food Nation so I am quite aware of the totally gross, disgusting, deadly state of the way conventional meat products are produced. If it is elitist to want to stay healthy and even alive, then I'm elitist. The author describes the horrific ways some kids die from having eaten meat that is mishandled, of which ground beef is almost 100% likely to contain cow s**t. There are more microbes (including e-coli) from s**t in the average household's kitchen sink than in their toilets because of contanimated meat. So you are better off drinking water from someone's toilet than drinking water that's touched their kitchen sink. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but one of my top priorities in life is to ensure my child eats in a way that avoids the pitfalls of the American way of producing food. It is one vast experiment by corporations trying to make a fast buck. They will literally do anything, including lobbying to literally keep s**t in meat, so that they will save a single penny on a pound of meat.

In terms of produce, much less pesticides, there is the problem of genetic modification. It produces frankensteinian food that is often not even recognized as food by animals and bugs. I'm not waiting for scientists to prove in about 50 years that genetically modified foods causes all sorts of complications. The link between health problems and pesiticides are only just coming to light. But would anybody in their right minds do a shot of the stuff? I don't think so. Yet this is exactly what they do in however long a time (like every six months?).

A chiropractor friend of mine told me that the likelihood of getting cancer and other serious diseases are determined by what a child ate prior to when they're 10 years old. How about if we feed our kids organic foods until then?

Having said all this, I make compromises too. I buy whole foods natural chicken (the thighs are 99 cents a lb. on sale) when I can't afford pasture-fed. Pasture fed beef can sometimes be cheaper than the conventional kind. In any case, I don't pay more than $6 a lb. for any cut. I eat it sparingly. I buy bulk. I live simply.

I understand that people may still be unable to afford organic, pasture-fed foods. But I think once you become committed to it, you can find ways to include it in your budget. The important thing is to try. Sometimes I find organic foods that are cheaper than regular foods, but most people bypass them because they're not in the habit of looking for the right foods. But in today's age, we have to make the effort because for the first time in history, food is not what it appears to be. No one had to worry about that before America circa 1950 and thereafter.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

this may have been answered before and if so, i apologize... i have a hard time following long threads. but to decrease your consumption of pesticides/contaminents, isn't it also helpful to eat lower on the food chain? so like if you eat mostly veg*n, even if it's not organic, you are doing significantly better than if you ate meat?

i think pretty much everybody on mdc does the best they can with what they have. if those of you who buy organic could give the rest of us tips on how to do it on a budget, i think that advice would be very welcome. i mean, i know it is possible. my best friend is not 'employed" in the traditional sense... actually she works on organic farms when it is growing season, but she feeds herself solely organically for EXTREMELY cheap. obviously growing her own contributes to that , but most of us could do some gardening, right? i swear i will try this spring. my il's next door grow an incredible amount of food organically and freeze it to use all year. they are my heroes, lol. and my son is a little farmer in training. one year we grew green beans by the side of our house and the yield was incredible!! now, a quick hijack.... if you grow your own, do the seeds have to be "organic" or can you just buy any old seeds at kmart or whatever?

back to your debate!!


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommay* 
I also just read Fast Food Nation so I am quite aware of the totally gross, disgusting, deadly state of the way conventional meat products are produced. If it is elitist to want to stay healthy and even alive, then I'm elitist. The author describes the horrific ways some kids die from having eaten meat that is mishandled, of which ground beef is almost 100% likely to contain cow s**t. There are more microbes (including e-coli) from s**t in the average household's kitchen sink than in their toilets because of contanimated meat. So you are better off drinking water from someone's toilet than drinking water that's touched their kitchen sink. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but one of my top priorities in life is to ensure my child eats in a way that avoids the pitfalls of the American way of producing food. It is one vast experiment by corporations trying to make a fast buck. They will literally do anything, including lobbying to literally keep s**t in meat, so that they will save a single penny on a pound of meat.

omg.... uke !!!


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I think when people say "I can't afford X" that they really mean "It's not a priority for me to buy X" or "X is not important enough for me to spend money on".

I read a study recently about dental care, and it turned out that young males with relatively high incomes were the most likely to say they couldn't afford to visit the dentist. Really what they meant was that visiting the dentist wasn't a priority for them - they didn't see it as important, or worth the money. So therefore they "couldn't afford it".

It makes sense. If you asked me right now to spend $10,000 renovating our house, I'd say we couldn't afford it. But if something happened to me, DH or one of my DDs and we had to pay $10,000 in hospital bills, I'd find a way.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit* 
omg.... uke !!!

I hear you! I'm glad I dont even LIKE beef!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyleigh33* 
Now that's unfair, I think I quantified my statement. I said that eating organic was a priority for us, so we sacrificed other things that we might have instead in favour of buying organic. All I intended with my post was an anecdotal example of people who you would THINK couldn't afford organics based on income, but do, and explained how it can be done.


I was not trying to be unfair but just pointing out that for some of us we don't really have anything left to sacrifice so we can buy more organic foods. I think I'm a little defensive because I know how important organic foods are I prefer to buy them (they actually are high on my piority list) but finacially it's just not possible for us to buy mostly/all oragnic foods. It sucks not having the income to simply feed your family the way you feel is best.
I am enjoying reading how other low-income families are making it work though!!
Also it's hard for me to nak and type so my post are short. I really didn't mean what I wrote to be as harsh as it seems.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit*
omg.... !!!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *barose* 
I hear you! I'm glad I dont even LIKE beef!

That's not even the half of it! But there was a post in the TF forum about how Sally Fallon said that if push came to shove, conventional beef and lamb were better to buy than conventional pork and chicken. I don't know the exact reason, but I shudder at the thought.

But I just wanted to say that the economic problem is much larger than what one's husband makes. Schlosser is good about pointing out that wage is just not keeping up with the cost of living. That is also one of the reprecussions of the success of fast food restaurants and corporations. People are expected to live on much less than just a few generations ago. They drive down the price of food by driving down wages, then we're stuck unable to afford decent, unaltered food. I think a part of this is to stop supporting companies that contribute to the problem. Hopefully the new movie about fast food nation will open some eyes. Oddly though, people have a way of shrugging and moving on. I can hear my brother saying, "Channel 4 news said that s**t is okay in food as long as we cook it at the right temperature."


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommay* 
I can hear my brother saying, "Channel 4 news said that s**t is okay in food as long as we cook it at the right temperature."









:

And you are right that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. I think our first mistake was ever making nourishing our bodies about money.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommay* 
That's not even the half of it! But there was a post in the TF forum about how Sally Fallon said that if push came to shove, conventional beef and lamb were better to buy than conventional pork and chicken. I don't know the exact reason, but I shudder at the thought.


It's because the former get more sunlight/fresh air than the latter who never see the outdoors at all.


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 







:

And you are right that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. I think our first mistake was ever making nourishing our bodies about money.

Amen to this!!!

The mass food industry doesn't give a darn about the "food" they are marketing to consumers. When I saw the "*Future of Food*" that was really eye-opening. Good food should be available to people despite their social status- but instead the junk is marketed as more affordable. It seems like we have to defend ourselves from the onslaught of mess that is out there, which (with fast food joints on every corner) a hard thing to do.


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

This information was also in the activism forum, but I thought is was interesting info to share here:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia...paign_KEY=6204

sorry if a little off topic, but I thought this was important to share, Thanks.


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## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
This information was also in the activism forum, but I thought is was interesting info to share here:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia...paign_KEY=6204

sorry if a little off topic, but I thought this was important to share, Thanks.

WOW!! This is sickening! You are right about that.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BurgundyElephant* 
One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food. Eat what is in season, stock up when it's on sale, utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.

We eat primarily organic... but mainly because my kids are on Feingold. We don't eat fast food. My kids have also been healthier this year than they were before. We've had no Doctor's appointments for colds or other illnesses, which means I am saving money there. I spend more on food, of course, but not that much more.


I haven`t read any further than this post, but wanted to make a comment about this:

1: I am Norwegian, living in Norway. And here, organic is WAAAY more expensive. Way more. 2 lbs of unorganic apples cost as much as 3 or 4 organic apples. Organic chese is 50% more expensive. Organic meat is sometimes twive the price, other times "just" 50% more expensive.

There is no way I would be able to but all (or even most) organic food. It`s just not an option.

2: If I was to eat only what was in season here in Norway, I wouldn`t eat much veggies or fruit at all during the winterhalf of the year. This is Norway. Cold and not suitable for most fruits even during summer. So if I was to eat only organic AND only in season, there wouldn`t be much of anything green in my diet.

Just wanted to show that what is truth to you (generic you) isn`t always everybode elses truht.

Oooh, and BTW: All medicalstuff is free of charge for all children in Norway. And adults only pay a part of the bill. Operations and hospitalstays are free for all. (Except medicine. We pay a small sum of our medicine. But not much.)
So I wouldn`t be able to save any money from that, either. But my son is more or less never sick anyway (Knock on wood), even though we eat mostly nonorganic.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I think BurgundyElephant's point was more that the actual price that most Westerners pay for their food -- conventional grocery store food -- is artificially low, thanks to market pressure, subsidies, cheap imports, etc.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 

Oooh, and BTW: All medicalstuff is free of charge for all children in Norway. And adults only pay a part of the bill. Operations and hospitalstays are free for all. (Except medicine. We pay a small sum of our medicine. But not much.)
So I wouldn`t be able to save any money from that, either. But my son is more or less never sick anyway (Knock on wood), even though we eat mostly nonorganic.










That's because you live in a civilized country.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen* 
I think BurgundyElephant's point was more that the actual price that most Westerners pay for their food -- conventional grocery store food -- is artificially low, thanks to market pressure, subsidies, cheap imports, etc.

Oh, ok.. Sometimes my understanding of the (english) written word somewhat sucks.









But, even though Norwegian government is heavy into subsidies, food (all food, also conventional,) is a lot more expensive than most other places. Wich ofcourse makes our organic food even more expensive,too.

And I have interpreted (majorly wrong spelling, I`m sure.







) several posts in this thread to say that organic wouldbe affordable to most? people if they sacrified other non-essentials. Not in my country, with my income. I don`t buy non-essentials. I can`t afford it.

I buy organic when I can. What I can afford.

My hope is that one day organic food will be affordable for "normal people" like me. But as long as only 1-2% or Norwegian farmers are organic, and most grocerystores have less than 10 organic items, I have to settle for non.organic for the most part.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? Not knocking you, but are you totally correct in how you live? Do you treat all people equitably? Is your heart completely without malice? Do you walk everywhere instead of drive? Is your house a total "green home"? Are you off the grid? Did you bf or did you not?
(These questions are directed at you, simply rhetorical)

People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?

What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.

If a person goes to McDonald's to pick up breakfast before work each mother, and then whines to me that she can't afford organic, that is hypocrisy. I'm not asking her the questions, she's offering me conflicting information. I'm not judging her as a bad person, but simply noticing that there is not truth to what she is telling herself and me. She is one example.

I have two other office mates who have different "excuses." I do not solicit their excuses, but they know that I shop at the natural foods co-op during my lunch hour, and they offer reasons why they do not. If this one co-worker said, "I like McDonalds. I'd rather spend my money there than on organic." Then, she would not be hypocritical.


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mnnice* 
Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.

OMG! I have never had to pay more than $1 more for organic milk than regular milk! That's just awful. I take it there isn't a lot of competition from a lot of stores offering organic produce there.


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *race_kelly* 
OMG! I have never had to pay more than $1 more for organic milk than regular milk! That's just awful. I take it there isn't a lot of competition from a lot of stores offering organic produce there.

I'm not exactly sure why the big difference. Nearly all the regular groceries carry organic milk and I can also by *very* local organic not ultrapastuerized milk in glass (if I'm ambitious enough to make a special trip). I don't know if I'd consider this area the hotbed of the organic universe or anything, but I think there are plenty of choices. We are pretty much near/at the epicenter of the dairy industry.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
1: I am Norwegian, living in Norway. And here, organic is WAAAY more expensive. Way more. 2 lbs of unorganic apples cost as much as 3 or 4 organic apples. Organic chese is 50% more expensive. Organic meat is sometimes twive the price, other times "just" 50% more expensive.

European countries have higher standards of safety regarding meat, and require labeling of genetically modified foods. I'm assuming that's true of Norway. If that was the case, I'd feel better about buying conventional foods. But here, even if I could get past the pesticides issue (and some conventional veggies and fruits have smaller amounts than others), there is still the issue of gmo. So my point is that I think you're doing okay.

ETA: In fact, one of the downfalls of ranchers in America is that the way they produce beef tailored to American companies makes the beef unsellable in Europe (because beef feed contains chicken s**t and other animal products), as well as a lot of other gross stuff. blech.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mnnice* 

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.

I stand corrected then







The nearest WF is 6 hours away







But I can still get organics on a limited budget between out co-op, member run natural foods buying club, and local farms. It did take a few years to figure it all out to get where I am now though......

For people who live in areas where organics are hard to get.... Anyone can start a buying club. I save a great deal of money, even over conventional, by buying 25 pound bags of organic wheat berries, steel cut oats, beans, etc..... I know storage space is a problem for lots of people. But if you have storage, this is a good way to go. I use lined Subway pickle buckets with tops. They were free and I can store my stuff out in the garage or basement without worrying about animals. The lining is important though.....the pickle smell NEVER goes away. I also barter for a double share of CSA and can away one whole share. We eat something from the summer bounty almost every day in the winter and my winter grocery bill is very low since we live on the summer harvest and bulk whole grains/beans. Dh calls it mystery soup. I am very bad about labelling the jars and each week I would make some sort of veggie/grain/bean soup depending on what I have that week. We never know until we start to eat it what it is exactly......


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?


I believe people have to make the best choices possible. I don't look down on anyone for the choices they make. At the same time, my inner monologue agrees and disagrees with certain choices. If we're on this board, I'm certain we ALL make judgments of this kind. I'm sure even you would look at a mom who feeds her kids all junk food with no effort to include fruits and veggies as bad choices. And you would have good reason. There are good reasons to go organic. If you still choose not to buy organic or can't, that's fine, but imo, organic is the right choice, and should be a goal even if it's not what we can afford all the time.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mnnice* 
I'm not exactly sure why the big difference. Nearly all the regular groceries carry organic milk and I can also by *very* local organic not ultrapastuerized milk in glass (if I'm ambitious enough to make a special trip). I don't know if I'd consider this area the hotbed of the organic universe or anything, but I think there are plenty of choices. We are pretty much near/at the epicenter of the dairy industry.

I wonder what does make that much difference. I'm in MA, so it seems there would be a longer way for organic milk and such to make it here. Isn't that weird. Totally OT, but wouldn't that be an interesting study.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mnnice* 
Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.

Yeah, that might be true.









But $1.88 for å GALLON of regular milk?? Here I would have to pay $5 for a gallon regular milk. Not that I would ever buy it!







Organic milk is actually not much more expensive than regular milk, for some reason. It would be something like $1 extra for a gallon. But other than that, organic is usually twice the price of regular food.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommay* 
European countries have higher standards of safety regarding meat, and require labeling of genetically modified foods. I'm assuming that's true of Norway. If that was the case, I'd feel better about buying conventional foods. But here, even if I could get past the pesticides issue (and some conventional veggies and fruits have smaller amounts than others), there is still the issue of gmo. So my point is that I think you're doing okay.

ETA: In fact, one of the downfalls of ranchers in America is that the way they produce beef tailored to American companies makes the beef unsellable in Europe (because beef feed contains chicken s**t and other animal products), as well as a lot of other gross stuff. blech.


Genetically modified food isn`t allowed to sell in Norway at all, avtually. But that will change soon, I`m afraid of. (The European Union will make sure of that.







)

Most Norwegian stores sells very little foreign meat. I have never bought any, actually.


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

This thread made me curious about what people mean when they say that organic food is affordable or not, so I posted a poll in Frugality and Finances. I'd love to see more responses from people in this thread who feel organic is affordable, or feel that it isn't.









*Poll: What percent of your budget is spent on groceries?*
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=593867


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Please don't flame me for restarting this thread, but i wanted to share a couple things with those who wanted to help me. First thank you for telling me about Trader Joes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I went there to day and practically did the happy dance all throughout the store. Yes it really makes a big difference compared to Whole Foods. Only one draw back its exactly 37miles door to door thats 74 miles round trip. So dh and I loaded up. I cant afford gas wise or 4 years seated in car that long... too often. Nonetheless I am grateful for having found it.
Also I have found a local dairy farm to purchase milk from. Thank you much!!!!


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## wurzelkind (Oct 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
Organic stuff isn't really "Trendy" here, so there isn't a lot of it to be found. So, I read labels and get what is best. I have eliminated trans fats from our diet, and am working on weeding out all the HFCS now.

Once we are back in the states and have the option to shop around, it might be an option, but german markets haven't really given in to the organic craze, so we do our best with the farmers markets and a combination of the bakeries here, the different markets like the fish market, and the commissary for stuff we want from home like cereal.

I think the food here has a lot less preservatives anyhow, and is overall more healthy.

_also sent as a PM as I am not sure if the person I have quoted is going to read the message._
Where on earth are you living in Germany??? There are several organic super market chains, with large stores and I have never ever had a problem to get organic food in Germany. In fact, we almost solely eat organic at our house and I have been eating that way since I was born 24 years ago.

Have a look here to find an organic store near you:
www.alnatura.de
www.basic-bio.de
www.biomarkt.de
www.oekonova.de/23biob.htm

Apart from that you will find organic foods in large supermarkets like Rewe, Tengelmann, even discounters like Aldi, Lidl, Plus, Norma and the like sell organic goods. Even small towns have organic stores (mind you, they are small but you get what you need!), so-called 'Reformhaus' stores sell organic food (www.neuform.de) and you can even get organic produce delivered to your door (www.oekokiste.de). Please also have a look at www.demeter.de, the organisation for bio-dynamic foods and www.bioland.de. And ontop of allof that I can also tell you the URLs of a few online stores that deliver everything to your home with DHL.







Now how's that?!

If I can help you any further please feel free to PM me









And to answer the OP - I do not judge people who buy non-organic foods as we can only buy that when DH earns enough. But what I judge (and I admit being guilty of that) are people who solely buy junk food and either are overweight or have children in tow - that's something that I can not understand!


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## jsmith2279 (Jan 12, 2007)




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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

Organic food is super expensive in my area, but I've noticed that the price is finally coming down. So instead of 3 times as much it's only 2 times. We have a Trader Joe's as well, but it's about 15 - 20 miles from me and I'm seriously time crunched most of the time so it's hard to get there. Costco is carrying a lot of organic so I've been buying it there more. I just wish they'd get a bigger selction of organic frozen veggies.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What's the advantage to health food store peanut butter? I buy the peanuts only kind at the grocery store - is there a step up from that?

if you can, try to get peanut butter made from VALENCIA peanuts. they tend to be grown in a less humid climate and have a lower incidence of mold.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

For people that truly are on a tight budget and cannot afford organic, I totally understand. If you are in the right climate for it you could always garden your own for even less than conventional would cost.

However, I sell organic produce in my family run store. I do not mark up the produce much at all, hoping to make it more affordable for EVERYONE. A few days ago, two women came in together. They were like "Everything is SO expensive! We can't afford to eat like this!". As they checked out the few items they bought, they were discussing the (at least ) $200 dollars each they had just spent at the clinique counter and how their husbands were going to kill them to see more on their charge card at my store. They spent less than $20 on stuff in my store, and it wasn't organic food, it was Burts bees stuff. Some people just don't prioritize according to what's healthier for them.

p.s. i did tell them that when they ran out of their clinique stuff to come back and i'd hook them up with some chemical free beauty aids that wouldn't break their wallet.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
For people that truly are on a tight budget and cannot afford organic, I totally understand. If you are in the right climate for it you could always garden your own for even less than conventional would cost.

However, I sell organic produce in my family run store. I do not mark up the produce much at all, hoping to make it more affordable for EVERYONE. A few days ago, two women came in together. They were like "Everything is SO expensive! We can't afford to eat like this!". As they checked out the few items they bought, they were discussing the (at least ) $200 dollars each they had just spent at the clinique counter and how their husbands were going to kill them to see more on their charge card at my store. They spent less than $20 on stuff in my store, and it wasn't organic food, it was Burts bees stuff. Some people just don't prioritize according to what's healthier for them.

p.s. i did tell them that when they ran out of their clinique stuff to come back and i'd hook them up with some chemical free beauty aids that wouldn't break their wallet.

Clinique is CRAP anyway!


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## maxsmum (Nov 29, 2006)

:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *E.V. Lowi* 
I feel very sympathetic towards people that truly cannot afford to pay extra for organic food. I have been very poor in my own life in the past, to the point of having to choose between feeding my family or putting gas in the car to get to work the next day. So to anyone that is trying to make the op or anyone else feel guilty about the choices they make concerning food, wood or plastic toys or any other choice-back off!! It would be completely a surprise to meet anyone on this forum who doesn't have the best interests of their family, their children at heart. What else in the world would keep them coming back here to be subjected to the elitist and judgemental attitudes found within? Having said that, in all sincerity, I would like to explain why I buy organic whenever possible and support local Farmer's market. Besides the fact that the family is much more healthy in every way since we made the switch to organic, by changing our buying habits and supporting the small organic farmers, it is actually bringing the price of organic down for everyone.
30 years ago when organic food just came onto my radar, it was prohibitively expensive and hard to come by. Because of increased demand, the price of organic goods have come way down and availability has increased tremendously. Back then, you never saw organic for sale in the local market, like you do now. You had to go expensive "health food" stores and select from crummy looking, dried out vegetables and stale, inferior goods. Because the demand for organic has grown so much as people have become more aware of the downside of pesticides, gmo's and other modern methods of food production, the selection, quality and affordability of organic has expanded as a result. So part of that attitude you feel coming from an "elitist" is just the desire to support this process. The more people that purchase organic, the cheaper it becomes for everyone. HTH.


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