# I just saw the most horrible thing ever



## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

I watched a video of a live cs...i nearly threw up and had a bit of a panic attack

It was so violent. I have more to say but i just cant right now

http://www.or-live.com/distributors/NLM/rnh.cfm?id=213

ETA
OKAY, i am coming back on to "defend" myself. I had a cs. It was necessary BUT my baby suffered a stroke because of it. She has been permanently harmed. I was in maternal special care because of it. I signed out of the hosp AMA after 7 days. DD was in the NICU for 10 days. We are both still suffering (over 2 years later) because of this.

I am sorry that seeing a mother torn up and treated like meat makes me sick to my stomach. I am sorry that seeing a baby yanked up by her tiy little feet makes me have a panic attack. I did NOT say i am discusted with anyone who has a cs. I am so so horrified that it is such a "nothing" procedure that 30% of births are happening this way. Everyday i talk online with moms who are still hurting form thier cs. Being denied vbac. They have been bullied, lied to and pressured. I think the whole thing is sad. I think the doctor was rude and that baby had some trouble. Now with this disclaimer can i go back to showing a link that i think others would find interesting? Having NEVER seen it myself it was HORRIFYING to see what they did to me (actuallu this was better because at least they didnt take out her uterus to sew it up.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I saw a csection on discovery channel years before I even thought about having kids. Turned me off completely- until then I thought that was the 'easy' way to give birth. Unfortunately for me, ds2 ended up being c/s.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

what a wonderful way to think about the birth of my dear son.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Ugh. I watched part of it and wow oyu would think the surgeons were working with a side of beef at times. They are so rough with her body.

This isn't the first one I've seen. My mother taped my own and my OB wasn't nearly as rough and it was much quicker.

And when did giving birth become a procedure. The OB kept reffering to VBACs as a procedure. Last time I checked a vaginal birth is the absence of a procedure.







:


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

I;ve never seen one. They showed a video in the CB classes at the hospital when I was pregnant with my oldest. I left the room. ICK.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I watched a video of a live cs...i nearly threw up and had a bit of a panic attack

It was so violent. I have more to say but i just cant right now

http://www.or-live.com/distributors/NLM/rnh.cfm?id=213

Uh, it's not much of a picnic for those of us who have to endure them either. No need to throw up over the disgust that some women have c-sections for legitimate reasons. Like because they are dying!!!







:


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i cant watch the video. i endured 2 of them. i do have to say that neither of mine were violent..i did have very caring docs, even if they were misguided in their referrals to have the c/s.

edited to add: i dont think the birht of my first 2 sons was "the most horrible thing ever". but, im pms'ing right now so maybe im just a bit sensitive.


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## rozzie'sma (Jul 6, 2005)

I don't she was upset because she was having a CS but because the surgeon was treating this poor womans body with such disregard. It was violent. Even is it was needed his bedside manner stunk


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## kennedy444 (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
Uh, it's not much of a picnic for those of us who have to endure them either. No need to throw up over the disgust that some women have c-sections for legitimate reasons.









:
How true mama.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

It's not working for me...It won't play.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
Uh, it's not much of a picnic for those of us who have to endure them either. No need to throw up over the disgust that some women have c-sections for legitimate reasons. Like because they are dying!!!







:

Um, my only living child was taken via cs. She had a stroke because of it. She lost 1/4 of her brain. I am still horrified by flashbacks. And if you watch it you will understand my horror. There are pieces of "meat" on his hands like he is making meatloaf. They yank hard on that baby and she is very floppy - they are rough with both her and the mom.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

[

QUOTE=rozzie'sma]I don't she was upset because she was having a CS but because the surgeon was treating this poor womans body with such disregard. It was violent. Even is it was needed his bedside manner stunk[/QUOTE]
Thank you, yes. I was so shocked and haviing such anxiety over seeing it i just couldnt write anymore. And they were very flippant about cs and its risks and about how it is really all about patient choice.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
Ugh. I watched part of it and wow oyu would think the surgeons were working with a side of beef at times. They are so rough with her body.

This isn't the first one I've seen. My mother taped my own and my OB wasn't nearly as rough and it was much quicker.

And when did giving birth become a procedure. The OB kept reffering to VBACs as a procedure. Last time I checked a vaginal birth is the absence of a procedure.







:

Yes i hated the vbac is a procedure liine and also the "baby looks happy to have her birthday" line.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

It didn't seem any more violent to me than I figured it would be. It's major surgery. Every other major surgery I've watched has been that violent or more.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
It didn't seem any more violent to me than I figured it would be. It's major surgery. Every other major surgery I've watched has been that violent or more.

*nods* Watch a total hip replacement if you want to see violent surgery.


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## Babytime (May 4, 2004)

For some babies, their journey through the birth canel is pretty violent. I've seen some bruised and squashed babies so I imagine it is not always smooth sailing vaginally either?


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Helloooooo....Why can't I get it to work for me??


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Babytime*
For some babies, their journey through the birth canel is pretty violent. I've seen some bruised and squashed babies so I imagine it is not always smooth sailing vaginally either?

Nope. Sometimes vaginal birth can be more "violent" than a c/s. Seen it.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizc*
Helloooooo....Why can't I get it to work for me??

I dunno. I didn't watch. I do that for a living, no need to watch as far as I'm concerned. What's your computer saying?


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
*nods* Watch a total hip replacement if you want to see violent surgery.

Yep! Those are seriously harsh. The whole popping in and out thing. *shudder*


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## malachi's_mommy (Mar 18, 2006)

i can't see it either


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

It doesn't say anything. It shows where it's supposed to play but the box where it should be shown is blank.


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## malachi's_mommy (Mar 18, 2006)

same here, i think we need a real player or quicktime to watch


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizc*
It doesn't say anything. It shows where it's supposed to play but the box where it should be shown is blank.

It sounds like you don't have the proper software installed on your computer to watch it.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
Um, my only living child was taken via cs. She had a stroke because of it. She lost 1/4 of her brain. I am still horrified by flashbacks. And if you watch it you will understand my horror. There are pieces of "meat" on his hands like he is making meatloaf. They yank hard on that baby and she is very floppy - they are rough with both her and the mom.

Look, a c-section saved my life when my daughter was already dead inside of me and I was dying as well. Maybe I shouldn't have replied as I'm PMS'ing, but it's irritating to constantly hear how violent, horrifying, and disgusting c-sections are. Like other posters have mentioned, what surgery is a bed of roses?


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I've seen my own csection. It wasn't that rough, and it was MUCH faster. Well, except for the end where the doctor couldn't get a good hold on my baby so she kept slipping back in


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizc*
It doesn't say anything. It shows where it's supposed to play but the box where it should be shown is blank.

Does a little drop down bar show up that says you need Active Control X? Often, if I can't see a graphic or something on my computer, I get the little "you need to install Active Control X to view this site."


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Well I can't watch CSI or House without getting queasy. So when our Childbirth class showed the C/S video, I just looked away from the monitor. I looked at DP's face, which was a look of horror. After that class he had a renewed commitment to be the best damn birth coach and advocate possible. He did not want to watch a live C/S, especially mine.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
Look, a c-section saved my life when my daughter was already dead inside of me and I was dying as well. Maybe I shouldn't have replied as I'm PMS'ing, but it's irritating to constantly hear how violent, horrifying, and disgusting c-sections are. Like other posters have mentioned, what surgery is a bed of roses?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Wow. I am not watching the video. I rarely read things here with such lack of respect for moms and their births. I agree with the pp who said many surgeries are violent, as well as vaginal births. Why all of the judgement??


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

to the moms who have had to endure a c-section


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

That was a "live" birth?? Wow. It looked like they had to do a lot of work to that baby to get her to "perk up." They even cut the visuals on her, and went back to the nice gaping hole on the momma. I wonder if they were worried?

I forced myself to watch it, because I was curious what life was like on the other side of the curtain. My first birth was an emergency c-section, and it sucked. Yes, it's disgusting, but one of the most beautiful photos I have of my daughter's early days, is her c-section birth:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../brynnborn.jpg

What was more disgusting than the visual ickiness (because yes, insides are kind of freaky) was the comments they were making. I felt ill at their description of a VBAC being a "procedure" that came along with many risks. It really bothered me that they said that VBAC's are on the decline, and doctors are starting to refuse to do them (sounds like my description of circumcision, when I talk to people about it, hmm... They start losing one "procedure" so they have to advertise a more "acceptable" one?) When I went to my OB during my second pregnancy, they asked "are you planning on having a vaginal birth, or a repeat c-section?" I opted for the VBAC, and not one negative thing was said about it, ever, during the entire 9 months of pregnancy nor during the labour/delivery. Weird.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

OUCH! That looks VERY painful!








to all the mama's who had C-sections! They didn't show a c-section birth at my prepared childbirth class...


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh man, not watching that video was like not looking at a car accident on the side of the road...I just had to watch it. Many many







to all the mommas who had c-sections. I think that in emergency situations, c-sections are lifesavers, no doubt, but that doctor was so freaking nonchalant about it, and I HATE HATE HATE when doctors say..."and sometimes a cesarean is needed for those babies who are just too big to fit through the mother's pelvis" ARGHHHHHHHHH







Ok, that is a valid concern in EXTREMELY rare circumstances, yet I have seen that excuse used SOOO many times.







:

I am a deputy coroner for my county, and often have to attend autopsies, so to say I am not squeamish and can handle a little blood is an understatement, but that video turned my stomach. The way that doctor used those metal things just made me want to puke. I have been putting off my Valtrex, and was going to start at 36 weeks, but I think I will start TONIGHT.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

well no wonder I hurt like heck afterward!







:


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Having had two and seen the one on Discovery Channel, I think I'll skip the video. I have to say that my first one wasn't as rough as my second, but that could be a function of different levels of epidural/spinal. With my first, I couldn't so much as move my feet for a good while afterwards. With my second, I had sensation much sooner and during the stitching up felt somewhat like they were playing volleyball with my uterus. After I saw the Discovery Show, I realize what I was feeling. ugh

DS nursed for the first time before I could even wiggle my toes! First thing to go according to MY agenda, which had not included surgery, that day, though Doc did try. We did as much that day as we did 8+ years later with a CNM. Same result though.
















I think it's insane that cesarean is being thought of as elective surgery. Insane and wildly irresponsible, as well as creating more problems with healthcare in general. Can you imagine transplants or open heart surgery being treated so casually?

More impetus to be fit and have a doula so maybe I can avoid another repeat cesarean.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

Watching C-section births never really bothered me. It just looks like a surgery to me and I know that some women simply have to have them.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I had a C-section with Dd at the last minute due to scar tissue preventing my cervix from opening. Any major surgery is pretty tough for the body.


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## DuckyTate (Aug 11, 2004)

It was rather boring to wach and the doc did not bring the parents into the birth event. If aything I learned that as a doc that guy sucks!

Every birth is beautiful in its own way. Judging is not fair to the mother or the baby.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Ooh Ooh! I know! Lets jump on the OP and get mad at her anger towards "modern medicine". Lets take it personally and out of context and try to make her feel like an ogre, without 1st asking her to clarify. Sounds like fun!








:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Just to clarify: I was not intending to jump on anyone here at all.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Just to clarify: I was not intending to jump on anyone here at all.

Just to clarify, i wasn't referencing you, mama. You stated a basic fact without judgement for either side. As usual, you rock!


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I didn't watch the video. I HAD a csection & it was not a bad experience FOR ME. I recovered quickly, blah blah blah... I have seen csections performed on documentaries, though- & they aren't any more violent than other surgeries- a breast implant comes to mind- holy smokes, I would never have plastic surgery after watching Dr. 90210! But I understand that some people do choose to have it.

Some people choose to, or are forced to, have csections. Whether or not you think that is a valid choice, it IS a choice, & it should be respected.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
Uh, it's not much of a picnic for those of us who have to endure them either. No need to throw up over the disgust that some women have c-sections for legitimate reasons. Like because they are dying!!!







:









:

Thinking of Reagan...


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Ok, so that was my very first time actually 'seeing' a C/S. (ya know, other then on a baby story where its all blured out and crap)

THANK YOU OP FOR THE LINK.

My DSs will appreciate being able to watch it.
My oldest just today asked me if I had a video of his birth. Of course being an E-C/S I do not.

If any of you honestly think that is a 'voilent birth' you should see on where a mother or baby are about to die and from the time they roll you in til the baby is OUT is only 5 mins.. now I imagine that would be rather voilent. That took .. what..20 mins from cut to birth.

Thanks again for the link!


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Ooh Ooh! I know! Lets jump on the OP and get mad at her anger towards "modern medicine". Lets take it personally and out of context and try to make her feel like an ogre, without 1st asking her to clarify. Sounds like fun!








:

Thank you







I already feel







:







:







: today so maybe i wasnt as clear as i should have been.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
Look, a c-section saved my life when my daughter was already dead inside of me and I was dying as well. Maybe I shouldn't have replied as I'm PMS'ing, but it's irritating to constantly hear how violent, horrifying, and disgusting c-sections are. Like other posters have mentioned, what surgery is a bed of roses?

FWIW i do "know" you from the loss threads. I am now dealing with my own loss and infertility issues - possibly from more stupid things they did during my cs. I had a cs and i found it horrfying and violent. I found the video was also horrifying and violent. I think it could have been "better" if the mother and baby were possibly treated with some respect and dignity. I do feel sad even for necessary cs but even more so for unecessary ones.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I found the video was also horrifying and violent. I think it could have been "better" if the mother and baby were possibly treated with some respect and dignity. I do feel sad even for necessary cs but even more so for unecessary ones.

I though the video was very well done.. it was extremely educational.. hence the reason I will show it to my 7, 9, and 11 yr old boys tomorrow. This is a part of life. Some women (people in general, not just speaking of C/S births) canNOT avoid the knife in a life or death situation.

How could it have been done "better"? How were the mother and or baby treated with disrespect and no dignity?

The doctor referred to the mother by name.... she was not just another body laying under his knife.

I just dont get it.

I am not pointing fingers here at all.. but perhaps anyone who was 'offended' by this educational video of a c/s birth should really dig deeper into their own soul and find out what the ture nature of their feelings are.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
I though the video was very well done.. it was extremely educational.. hence the reason I will show it to my 7, 9, and 11 yr old boys tomorrow. This is a part of life. Some women (people in general, not just speaking of C/S births) canNOT avoid the knife in a life or death situation.

How could it have been done "better"? How were the mother and or baby treated with disrespect and no dignity?

The doctor referred to the mother by name.... she was not just another body laying under his knife.

I just dont get it.

I am not pointing fingers here at all.. but perhaps anyone who was 'offended' by this educational video of a c/s birth should really dig deeper into their own soul and find out what the ture nature of their feelings are.

I thought the very rough yanking of the baby was a bit vulgar. I didnt see him interact with the mother at all. HE just seemed "off" to me. Like she wasnt a real person. Even the ob who did my cs talked to me a few times explaining things like "okay now i am about to take your baby out. Her head is out." And that baby seemed to be really roughly handled. Couldnt they have waited for this new tiny being to be held for a bit before checking her leg movement and hip rotation. I understand the need to get her pinked up but the other stuff could have waited.
AND if this is how he appears while on camera i cant imagine how he would be without people watching.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:

I thought the very rough yanking of the baby was a bit vulgar.
Have you ever seen the manipulation of a babys head, shoulders, arms, entire body during a vaginal birth?

I have this dirty nasty man exposing himself to me.. pictured in my head when I think of the word 'vulgar'

Quote:

I didnt see him interact with the mother at all. HE just seemed "off" to me. Like she wasnt a real person. Even the ob who did my cs talked to me a few times explaining things like "okay now i am about to take your baby out. Her head is out."
She and her husband had agreed to this doc.video, they said that at the beginning. I understand what you are saying, but the doctor(s) were not doing a doc on how to have a conversation with the mother during surgery.

Quote:

And that baby seemed to be really roughly handled. Couldnt they have waited for this new tiny being to be held for a bit before checking her leg movement and hip rotation. I understand the need to get her pinked up but the other stuff could have waited.
I am sorry, but I must laugh at this.. after having birthed 3 children in a hosp and 2 at home its just funny that you would say that.. I have NEVER seen (and I have been present for 9 births other then my own, 1 HB) hosp staff handle a baby with gentle hands and love immediately after birth, they are rough and get the job done.

I am most certain that my son was not 'handled with care' at birth, and I am glad he was not given the reason for my E-C/S!


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

I thought the very rough yanking of the baby was a bit vulgar. I didnt see him interact with the mother at all. HE just seemed "off" to me. Like she wasnt a real person. Even the ob who did my cs talked to me a few times explaining things like "okay now i am about to take your baby out. Her head is out." And that baby seemed to be really roughly handled. Couldnt they have waited for this new tiny being to be held for a bit before checking her leg movement and hip rotation. I understand the need to get her pinked up but the other stuff could have waited.
AND if this is how he appears while on camera i cant imagine how he would be without people watching.
He was being filmed for an educational video. He was simply showing the process. I would have found it weird if he would have been chatting to the mother during this video.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I dunno...for those that say that people are 'jumping all over' the OP, I don't see how calling that video "The most horrible thing ever" is somehow not going to draw sensitivity and negative reaction.

As others have mentioned, a cesearean section is MAJOR surgery. Operations where the doctor is required to cut through several layers of tissue AND cut into and manipulate something out of a heavily muscled area can't be handled gingerly--otherwise it wouldn't get done, wouldn't be as efficient, and would lead to more damage. All big surgery is this way. If a heart surgeon worried about cutting and retracting every part of the rib cage that needs to be retracted with kid gloves on, they'd be there all day and would be exposing the patient to more danger and exposure. Knee surgery and hip surgery? Same thing. That is like a workout for the doctors and nurses.

Do I blame the OP for her "feelings"? No. I had one "great experience" with a cesarean, but the one for my twins was traumatic to the point that I still haven't been able to write their birth story. I vomited and voided my bowels whenever we passed close by the hosptial for months afterwards (which made going to follow up appointments...interesting) in fear reaction and anxiety. However, when someone calls something "the most horrible thing ever", I kind of find it mildly offensive to see a video of a cesarean section. I think it's more appropriate to say something like, oh, I don't know..."the most horrible bedside manner ever". Or "The most brutal cesarean section I've seen".

But most horrible thing *ever*? I am sorry the OP is hurting, and I can both sympathize and empathize with that. BUT that being said, everyone has their own reactions, and some of the people who have had cesareans are going to be angry when someone refers to any given c-section as "the most horrible thing EVER." I don't think it's any less valid for the mamas that felt stung by that choice of words to speak their mind, than those who are still traumatized by their surgery to express horror (and perhaps project their own experience onto it) at something like that.

Both are valid and and non-competative viewpoints. So I don't think we should jump all over those who felt stung by that phrasing either. Those of us who happen to be semi-to-all crunchy hear that kind of thing quite a lot, and if one ever develops a thicker skin for people constantly professing there pity and horror over your kids' birth I know I'm sure as hell not there yet.

And you hear it a lot. I've heard those kind of pitying statements (well meaning as they are) almost as much as I've heard the question "Are they twins?" Some people are going to have a kneejerk reaction to it.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I am sorry that seeing a mother torn up and treated like meat makes me sick to my stomach. I am sorry that seeing a baby yanked up by her tiy little feet makes me have a panic attack.


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## simple living mama (May 4, 2005)

I think the best thing that could come from this video is to for healthy pregnant women to realize that choosing a c section out of convenience isn't always the best option. It's not very gentle on the baby and quite rough on the woman's body. But at the same time to realize that thankfully we have that option if needed.

I do feel that doctors recommend them more often then needed. I had to argue with my doc to have a natural birth because of a large uterine fibroid. I read every book I could get my hands on relating to the subject and after talking with midwives and my research, I went with the natural route. Doctors are trained to see things go wrong. Midwives the opposite. They were cautious but still felt I could do this safely. And my 9lb 4oz baby came out just fine. So Again I think the docs over recommend so it's up to the woman to do her part of the research.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I had a cs. It was necessary BUT my baby suffered a stroke because of it. She has been permanently harmed.


If you don't mind sharing more about your daughter's birth, I would be very grateful to hear more details about what happened to cause her to have a stroke from being sectioned.

I have always wondered exactly what could go wrong during a section that would result in permanent harm or death for the *baby*, since all of the risks listed for babies born by section don't sound life threatening for the most part. The only risk I've ever questioned was respirtory issues, esp in sectioned babies born prematurely. Otherwise, I've honestly never heard of a baby having a stroke as a direct result of a section, so you've peaked my curiousity since I also birth by section.

If you feel more comfortable PM'ing me, that's fine. Or if you just don't wish to go into further details, I absolutely understand and respect that as well.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I couldnt' get the video to play (we have dial up here).
I had a beautiful c-section, truley beautiful. I think however it depends SOOOO much on your caregiver. I had a spinal that didn't take (can you say OUCH!!) my OB knew it didn't take, she repeatedly asked if I wanted a general but she was not going to force me--now way was I missing Miss Molly being born!! I was able to witness the entire thing though, they lowered the drape and had a nurse hold up a mirror. As for rough handling, I think a lot of it (even in vag births) is that baby is SLIPPERY!!

Anyway, here's a pic from my c-section as Molly was being pulled out.
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/com...52.jpg&.src=ph

All that said, I totally understand the OP as well, some things just really shock certain people. You name the medical procedure, I'm cool assissting with it--unless it's an eyeball--I couldnt' even put drops in dh's eye when he injured it at work--and while we were at emerg and the doc was scraping the metal fragments out of his eye--I had to run to the bathroom to puke







So for me, I'd take 10 c-section if you can spare me one eye procedure!!


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Isn't that the message board way, CookieMonsterMommy?


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Video isn't loading for me.


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## JennieYoung44 (Jan 21, 2006)

that was the first c-section i have ever seen (without the curtain) and i felt a bit bored with the beginning and then was shocked to realize i was physically pushing when they were birthing the baby, then i was laughing because the poor dear looked so silly with just her little bum sticking out (i happen to think my own children look funny when just their heads are out too), and then i was crying when she was born.
i expected to be shocked or maybe quesy, but it was a baby afterall, and i just felt happy to see a baby born.
i wonder if there is any such thing as a gentle c-section birth? i wonder how different an emergency c-section must be? i don't guess that they would be taking so much care. is there a greater risk of injury in a emergency? i always imagined that they just cut the tummy and pulled out a baby. guess i am naive... there is a lot of stuff in there.
i am not condoning c-section for convenience sake, and no offense to the op, you are entitled to your feelings, but i am surprised that i feel the beauty of that birth. i suppose that if i saw a video of a vaginal birth as traumatic as my first, i would probably feel differently than others about that video.
anyway, thank you for sharing the link. i am glad i watched it.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i thought it was cool! i love modern medicine. my dd was born by cs to save her life and mine and i thank god for that.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I don't know, is a cs really any more violent than any other surgery that cuts through multiple layers of the body? I'm guessing I'd be just as distrubed watching open heart surgery as a cs, but knowing myself, I'm not about to watch either.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:

As others have mentioned, a cesearean section is MAJOR surgery.
Naw, not according to the surgeon in that video. It's just a "common procedure."









I don't think that video shows typical c-section doctor behaviour, from what others have said. I didn't witness my own, but DH did. He also went through nursing school. And when he watched that video with me last night, he was pretty shocked at how rough they were. He said they weren't at all like that at mine. And mine was an emergency c-section, that went quite quickly. But as shown in the photo I posted earlier, they took a moment to allow a couple photos to be taken, as she was being born. It was the one redeeming thing in the loss of my "perfect" birth. I was still able to get a photo, and they knew that was important to me.

The treatment of the baby really freaked me out. I'm sure parts of it are pretty typical. But just how the doctor was so calm and cool about saying "It takes them a few minutes to adjust to the outside world, it's a big change" as they're shoving tubes down the baby's throat and vigerously rubbing her down.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

I didn't watch it, but by your descriptions it sounds like what I experienced.

I remember yelling out that I was going to fall off the table because of the force they were using. I felt my torso lift off the table up and down as I was puking my brains out







I told the anesthesiologist that I thought I was dying and he adjusted the meds.

I feel very hurt, scarred, violated by it all. My water was broken while I was 1cm dialated at noon and then I was told if I haden't delivered by 7pm it would have to be a section.

I am praying that I can bring this new little one into the world naturally.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiamiMami*
I feel very hurt, scarred, violated by it all. My water was broken while I was 1cm dialated at noon and then I was told if I haden't delivered by 7pm it would have to be a section.

I am praying that I can bring this new little one into the world naturally.

I think you were very lucky to have had a C/S. I truly believe that my daughter would still bew here today if I was given one....my water had been broken for almost 32 hours before I gave birth, as well with Meconium.....but that's a whole other story









In a heartbeat I would have subjected myself to feeling, hurt, scarred, and violeted, if it meant saving my child. Infact I did feel that way after my vaginal delivery, Alyssa died 16 hours later. Just my opinion.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

Naw, not according to the surgeon in that video. It's just a "common procedure."
just because it's a common procedure doesn't mean its not major. Hip replacements, bypasses, are common and definitely major.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
I think you were very lucky to have had a C/S. I truly believe that my daughter would still bew here today if I was given one....my water had been broken for almost 32 hours before I gave birth, as well with Meconium.....but that's a whole other story









In a heartbeat I would have subjected myself to feeling, hurt, scarred, and violeted, if it meant saving my child. Infact I did fe.el that way after my vaginal delivery, Alyssa died 16 hours later. Just my opinion.

Kelly, I am so very sorry for your loss.

In my situation, my daughter was not in any danger and my water had only been broken for 7 hours with no meconium. I just feel that my labor was very mismanaged with no regards for my wishes of a natural or at least vaginal birth.

I am sorry if I unintentionally hurt you by posting my story.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
I dunno. I didn't watch. I do that for a living, no need to watch as far as I'm concerned. What's your computer saying?

You do c-sections for a living or you watch them?


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
You do c-sections for a living or you watch them?

I'm a labor and delivery nurse. I watch them.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiamiMami*
Kelly, I am so very sorry for your loss.

In my situation, my daughter was not in any danger and my water had only been broken for 7 hours with no meconium. I just feel that my labor was very mismanaged with no regards for my wishes of a natural or at least vaginal birth.

I am sorry if I unintentionally hurt you by posting my story.

No problem..I know I shouldn't take things personally here..but I just can't help it. Thank you for you kind words about my daughter.

It just reminded me of a situation with a friend of mine..we were due a week apart. I delivered first and Alyssa died...she delivered a week later and went through labor, but ended up with a C/S, a horrible one at that... and she kept complaining about how "This was not her ideal birth, this isn't the way I wanted to birth my first child" All I could say was..."Yeah well your child is alive isn't he?"

I guess my point is...C/S are a little scary, maybe violent sometimes, but they are nessacary. It doesn't matter how a child is brought into this world, women should consider themselves lucky and be greatful that they can hold their living child.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Kelly, I'm not familiar with your daughter's story, but I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I think Kelly's and MiamiMiami's experiences show that labor can be mismanaged in both directions.









Sorry about your, and everyone else's, losses--whether of child or positive birth experience.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

*


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## prettypaws (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I thought the very rough yanking of the baby was a bit vulgar. I didnt see him interact with the mother at all. HE just seemed "off" to me. Like she wasnt a real person. Even the ob who did my cs talked to me a few times explaining things like "okay now i am about to take your baby out. Her head is out." And that baby seemed to be really roughly handled. Couldnt they have waited for this new tiny being to be held for a bit before checking her leg movement and hip rotation. I understand the need to get her pinked up but the other stuff could have waited.
AND if this is how he appears while on camera i cant imagine how he would be without people watching.

I haven't watched the video,no interest in seeing another one. But sometimes medicine isn't "nice" or "gentle". When a life is on the line, what may look like unnecessary roughness or yanking is just the docoter needing to get to something NOW. Frankly, I think some people are a little too obsessed with the birth experience. Yes, it would be nice if everyone had a wonderful,peaceful,gentle birthing story. In the long run,though,if I were faced with a doc chit chatting or getting the baby out and me stitched up, I'll take the quickie,thanks.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
No problem..I know I shouldn't take things personally here..but I just can't help it. Thank you for you kind words about my daughter.

It just reminded me of a situation with a friend of mine..we were due a week apart. I delivered first and Alyssa died...she delivered a week later and went through labor, but ended up with a C/S, a horrible one at that... and she kept complaining about how "This was not her ideal birth, this isn't the way I wanted to birth my first child" All I could say was..."Yeah well your child is alive isn't he?"

I guess my point is...C/S are a little scary, maybe violent sometimes, but they are nessacary. It doesn't matter how a child is brought into this world, women should consider themselves lucky and be greatful that they can hold their living child.

The fact is, many, many c-sections are completely arbitrary and completely unnecessary. I am really, truly sorry that you have endured the horror of having your sweet baby die (truly, I am - there are no words - I can only pray to never experience that kind of pain, mama), but someday I hope you are able to see that minimizing another woman's traumatic experience with a "well, at least your baby is alive" type of reaction does not help you heal or the other mama. Love and healing to you.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypaws*
I haven't watched the video,no interest in seeing another one. But sometimes medicine isn't "nice" or "gentle". When a life is on the line, what may look like unnecessary roughness or yanking is just the docoter needing to get to something NOW. Frankly, I think some people are a little too obsessed with the birth experience. Yes, it would be nice if everyone had a wonderful,peaceful,gentle birthing story. In the long run,though,if I were faced with a doc chit chatting or getting the baby out and me stitched up, I'll take the quickie,thanks.

See he was still chit chatting but just not to the mother. Yes it was a video for education but i would hope he would want to show a more personal touch. I guess no matter what i am doing in a job i still try to treat the other person with respect. It is just as easy to say "molly here comes your babys feet." as it is to say "now its feet are being delivered"

And i dont feel "obsessed" with the experience but i think it is sad that things could be better and should be better but no one really cares. This is the first feeling this little person gets. Being yanked on and put on a scale then scrubbed, tubes shoved down her throat, poked, blood drawn, burning crap put into her eyes. And i dont ind it acceptable when people circ and say "well they are little they wont remember anymore than i think it is okay to be really rough with a newborn because "hey they wont remember"
This is their FIRST experience out of the womb. I dont spank my dd because she wont remember. I treat her with repect. I have friends who have dementia and alzheimers and dont remember a thing. I could be really mean to them too because WHO CARES they wont remember. No i treat them with gentleness becasue that is how life desrves to be treated. I think all life is sacred and i dont think mistreatment is EVER okay.

I do feel it was nicer for my friend who recently had a baby. She was in the water and pushed her sons head out. They waited for "the longest 45 seconds in her life" and then she pushed again and the rest of the baby came out into the water. She picked him up and held him. That seems alot nicer to me - no yanking pulling yelling etc. Unfortunately we cannot all have that exerience but i think we should try for gentleness in ANY situation when it is possible.

this video was of a scheduled cs.
During this video the baby is squaling and freaked out and the dr says "she seems to be happy about her birthday today" ??

For the person who wanted to know more about my dd. I cannot give much detail as the hosp is STILL facing trouble because of all the mismanagement form mine and my dds "care" there. But according to the top neurologist in my state dd was damaged by the head yanking. He yanked on her head back and forth in a whipping motion so hard i nearly fell off the table - i am not a small person. He reufsed to open any of the incisions wider to get more space instead he just kept yanking and yanking for over 10 minutes...
I cannot say more but that is a part of it.

My dd was hurt, i was hurt. But we are both alive. Would i do it again if i HAD to - YES! Will i be happy about it? NO!
I dont think ANYONE has to be happy about it. I dont begrudge the person who had a cs and a healthy child if they are sad about the cs. To me the MOTHER matters too. I want a healthy mother and healthy baby.

It was the worst thing i have ever seen. I dont work in a hosp, or on roadside accidents. I dont see stuff like that everyday and it was shocking to see how it really is. I was horrified and i was sad for the baby. Does that mean i HATE moms who are happy about thier cs? no. I think we each have a RIGHT to our feelings and i felt horrified and scared and sick watching it.

If a mom who has a quick waterbirth is sad becasue it was too quick to really get into it i respect thse feelings too. Would i have killed for her birth - yes. But to her it was not nice and was scary and i have no right to try and guilt her because she "should be grateful". You can always find someone who is better off or worse off than you. Anyhow, i hope i have given enough info to be raked over the coals again...this is totally exfoliating.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
The fact is, many, many c-sections are completely arbitrary and completely unnecessary. I am really, truly sorry that you have endured the horror of having your sweet baby die (truly, I am - there are no words - I can only pray to never experience that kind of pain, mama), *but someday I hope you are able to see that minimizing another woman's traumatic experience with a "well, at least your baby is alive" type of reaction does not help you heal or the other mama.* Love and healing to you.

Yes, thank you. You have much more eloquence than i do.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

thank you dove.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiamiMami*
I feel very hurt, scarred, violated by it all. My water was broken while I was 1cm dialated at noon and then I was told if I haden't delivered by 7pm it would have to be a section.

I am praying that I can bring this new little one into the world naturally.

Wow, that really sucks! My water broke at 4 in the morning, I had meconium, and the baby didn't end up being born until almost 7 that evening. I was lucky, I think, in that my regular OB wasn't on call, and the OB I got was much more laid back about the whole process. At one point they told me her heart rate showed she was getting tired after the contractions, so they would have to give me oxygen. They never even mentioned a c-section. I honestly don't think I realized at the time that I was fortunate. My birth was very medicalized, but I didn't have an episiotomy or surgery, thank goodness.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)




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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
The fact is, many, many c-sections are completely arbitrary and completely unnecessary. I am really, truly sorry that you have endured the horror of having your sweet baby die (truly, I am - there are no words - I can only pray to never experience that kind of pain, mama), but someday I hope you are able to see that minimizing another woman's traumatic experience with a "well, at least your baby is alive" type of reaction does not help you heal or the other mama. Love and healing to you.

Thank you for the kind words about losing my daughter but....but I do think that maybe you are a little confused by my "At least your child is alive" comment I was in no way looking to heal myself or her. Negative comments don't heal, I know that. I guess after having a loss, I truly believe that the most "traumic" birth experience is only when a child dies. I am sure most bereaved mothers can relate. If you've never lost a child, you have no idea where I am coming from. (Not just you, but anyone) To me, I'd take the violent, violated experiances over and over if it meant having living child.

I guess I was shocked that my friend would go on and on about her "horrible c/s" and how "this wasn't her ideal birth" to someone who just lost a child. It was selfish and yes, she should have been greatful that he lived and I had every right to tell her so.

A loss just takes away the blissful ignorance of a pregnancy and any future pregnancies.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
I guess I was shocked that my friend would go on and on about her "horrible c/s" and how "this wasn't her ideal birth" to someone who just lost a child. It was selfish and yes, she should have been greatful that he lived and I had every right to tell her so.

That is rather shocking, in my opinion. It shows a lack of sensitivity. Not that she doesn't have the right to complain about her situation and try and process it, but she had to know that saying these things to you would be very hurtful. I'm so sorry for your loss and for how you were treated afterwards.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Echoing what Viola said... I can remember feeling sad that Joe was born at 3:09 & I did not wake up to see him until 7 that evening- then I read about mamas here whose babies were stillborn... it put it into perspective for me- & TO ME- the four hours I missed, the fact that I did not have the peaceful natural birth I expected to have- that is all trumped by the fact that I came home with my child.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

kelly81, you may not necessarily be looking for a healing experience, but sometimes they come with no warning or pretense. I'm not confused - I _do_ know deep, deep loss, just not in the same way as you, however.
I will continue to wish you much healing in this matter, and lots of love to all of the other mamas who have had a traumatic birth or non-ideal birth.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
It just reminded me of a situation with a friend of mine..we were due a week apart. I delivered first and Alyssa died...she delivered a week later and went through labor, but ended up with a C/S, a horrible one at that... and she kept complaining about how "This was not her ideal birth, this isn't the way I wanted to birth my first child" All I could say was..."Yeah well your child is alive isn't he?"









s
I soooo hear ya, mama. I have had to bite my tongue many times here and IRL when I read about mourning a birth b/c it didn't go the way the mama planned. How about the mamas who are mourning b/c their babe is dead? It takes a lot of restraint not to completely lash out.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*







s
I soooo hear ya, mama. I have had to bite my tongue many times here and IRL when I read about mourning a birth b/c it didn't go the way the mama planned. How about the mamas who are mourning b/c their babe is dead? It takes a lot of restraint not to completely lash out.











I am with you 100% No one truly understands what it's like to lose a child, unless they've experienced it..and when you have, you know there is nothing on this earth that is worse than that kind of pain.

Thank you to Viola and Joesmom for understandig where I am coming from.

Dove, thank for you well wishes.


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## JoAida (Mar 29, 2003)

I can't imagine the pain of losing a child. I'm so sorry to all the mamas who have had that happen to them.

That said...

I always dreamed of homebirths. I had 4 c/sections. Maybe I could have possibly had a vaginal birth with one or more of them, but I took the risks as too high and had scheduled/non-emergency c/sections with them instead. That way, we knew when they were coming, and there were lots of people prepared to help if need be, and even if I died, I knew my baby would be okay. I calculated my risks, and had pretty good births. I would so much rather be cut open than risk my babies. SO MUCH.

My first was 42 weeks and 9.5 lbs. I have a weird angle to my pelvis. There was a pretty decent chance he was going to get stuck. They even did a vertical incision so they wouldn't have to fight to get him out of my tummy. His head was 15" and his chest was 14.75". #2 was breech-butt first. #3 had very low fluid and some other problems. #4 well, I just wasn't willing to risk the previous incisions coming undone.

I love my birth experiences. I would do it again if my body could handle it...and again...and again.

Now I read a thread that shows a relatively average c/section, (some are more gentle, sure, as emergency ones are a lot less laid-back) and something I have had done 4 times and have been the way my beautiful children have come into the world is being called "the worst thing" someone has ever seen. Worse than anything else....ever seen....ever.

I guess to me it's like someone going into my old neighborhood and calling it the slums when I had a wonderful childhood growing up there.

I'm sorry your experience was so traumatic.

I can't put my finger on it...but it's bugging me.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Goodness, if you think that was violent then don't ever watch a video of open heart surgery! They basically band-saw your chest open and crank it apart.







I've never really heard of a gentle or peaceful surgery process, and a C-section is major surgery so there you go.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*

For the person who wanted to know more about my dd. I cannot give much detail as the hosp is STILL facing trouble because of all the mismanagement form mine and my dds "care" there. But according to the top neurologist in my state dd was damaged by the head yanking. He yanked on her head back and forth in a whipping motion so hard i nearly fell off the table - i am not a small person. He reufsed to open any of the incisions wider to get more space instead he just kept yanking and yanking for over 10 minutes...
I cannot say more but that is a part of it.

OMG, that is horrifying.









Thank you for sharing what I know must be very difficult to talk about. I have truly always wondered what the baby would possibly die of or be permanently damaged from during a c-section. I can see if the baby is delivered too early (which happens way more than it should with scheduled c-sections), is having breathing issues that are likely NOT life threatening, however then they end up in the NICU with all the germs and such, and I can see how a baby might end up with some infection that kills them.

Other than that though, I just have never heard of anything worse than a baby being cut during a section. While I certainly don't want my baby to be cut, it's not life threatening by any stretch of the imagination.

But this with yanking on her poor little head instead of extending the incisions is awful. One of the biggest advantages of a c-section is you CAN make the exit space bigger, something that is a lot harder to do with vaginal delivery where you're dealing with pelvic bones if baby is stuck.

Cut me in frickin half if you must, but to yank on the baby's head like that when a bigger incision would have likely solved the problem? That makes NO sense whatsoever, and I truly hope that doctor loses his butt over your daughter's birth.







You'd think with 30% of all babies being born by section, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to cut the hole bigger if necessary.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*







s
I soooo hear ya, mama. I have had to bite my tongue many times here and IRL when I read about mourning a birth b/c it didn't go the way the mama planned. How about the mamas who are mourning b/c their babe is dead? It takes a lot of restraint not to completely lash out.

You know, one would think that people would consider their audience when talking about something that is bothering them. It just seems so.....well, obvious.

It happens in all areas of life, and it amazes me. I mean, it's one thing if you've lost a child and you are lurking around on birth story boards where people are trying to process a difficult birth. But these conversations IRL where moms are complaining about their 'less than perfect' births to another mom who JUST lost her baby during birth? That is SO not appropriate.

I am currently pg with #4, a complete surprise that we were not absolutely thrilled about and are still working through the idea of adding a new baby to the family. We obviously will love this baby, of that I have no doubt. And I *am* getting more excited as the weeks pass (I am now 12+ weeks).

Anyhow, there are two girls on another board I post on that were due within a week of me, both dearly wanted to be pg. Both miscarried recently, and it just seems so unfair, ya know? I cannot *imagine* posting things knowing they will see the posts about how tiresome the all day sickness is or how we are still struggling some days to come to terms with the huge change our family is about to experience. That would be incredibly insensitive IMO, even though my feelings are perfectly valid and it is OK for me to feel this way.

It seems like it shouldn't take a genius to figure out there are times where it's just not appropriate to complain, whine, whatever over a situation when the person you are complaining to would dearly LOVE to take your place.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Double post.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom*
You know, one would think that people would consider their audience when talking about something that is bothering them. It just seems so.....well, obvious.

It happens in all areas of life, and it amazes me. I mean, it's one thing if you've lost a child and you are lurking around on birth story boards where people are trying to process a difficult birth. But these conversations IRL where moms are complaining about their 'less than perfect' births to another mom who JUST lost her baby during birth? That is SO not appropriate.

I am currently pg with #4, a complete surprise that we were not absolutely thrilled about and are still working through the idea of adding a new baby to the family. We obviously will love this baby, of that I have no doubt. And I *am* getting more excited as the weeks pass (I am now 12+ weeks).

Anyhow, there are two girls on another board I post on that were due within a week of me, both dearly wanted to be pg. Both miscarried recently, and it just seems so unfair, ya know? I cannot *imagine* posting things knowing they will see the posts about how tiresome the all day sickness is or how we are still struggling some days to come to terms with the huge change our family is about to experience. That would be incredibly insensitive IMO, even though my feelings are perfectly valid and it is OK for me to feel this way.

It seems like it shouldn't take a genius to figure out there are times where it's just not appropriate to complain, whine, whatever over a situation when the person you are complaining to would dearly LOVE to take your place.

I totally agree with you


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Thank you, wifeandmom for understanding. Blessings in this pregnancy.







s

And Kelly,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
I am with you 100% No one truly understands what it's like to lose a child, unless they've experienced it..and when you have, you know there is nothing on this earth that is worse than that kind of pain.









:







s


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

havne't read replies but...
This is something that made me upset about Birth Day Live. The idea was/is to show births happening live. Good idea. Most of them turn out to be c/s though. They show the whole thing. From incision to suture. Some of them are extremely bloody, very graphic, and often kind of terrifying or at the very least mean-looking (docs yanking on babies, pushing on bellies, etc) But they didn't show babies being born vaginally which were probaly far less graphic and violent in appearance. Anywayk, I'll goback and read replies.

Namaste, Tara


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

So, now - we all know that birth trauma or not having the birth you envisioned can be traumatic...right? So why can't that be discussed without saying "well, you have never known this kind of pain, you are insensitive?..."
I can see how it could seem very insensitive if you are in the position of being a mama who has lost a baby, but really it's not even in the same league (and obviously we are all agreeing with that), so why make it an adverserial issue? why create "sides"? why can't we agree that trauma is trauma and what is the greatest personal trauma for me may not be as bad as yours, but it is still traumatic and deserves care. Compassion still needs to be extended, imo.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

I think of it in terms of my son having autism and having friends with all "normal" children for the most part, and hearing them complain about mundane/stupid (IMO) things about their kids that just makes me want to scream.

Part of you wants to jump through the phone and just read them the riot act and tell them "count your effing blessings, you ninny. You don't have to do xyz with your child, you don't know what trials and tribulations with childrearing are until you've raised a child with special needs." But then I step back for a moment and realize....everyone has their own cross to bear.

Autism may be difficult, but there are moms on this board who have children that cannot walk, cannot eat, cannot breathe on their own. My child can do all of those things. It doesn't invalidate my feelings of grief and rage about my own child's situation and diagnosis, but it puts it into perspective.

My child can breathe, he can laugh, he can _walk_. He is not tube-fed, he does not have seizures, and is for the most part physiologically healthy. When I take my son to OT every week, inevitably we see children in wheelchairs, with trachs, with halos, feeding tubes, in walkers, etc. etc.. It puts it into perspective.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while everyone is entitled to their grief and is entitled to their feelings, sometimes taking a look at those around you who truly do have it worse can really put things in perspective. What seems like a tragedy at the time turns into something entirely manageable once you look at the things other people around you are dealing with.

For me, personally, a cesarean is not a tragedy. A dead child _is._ Having witnessed both very traumatic c-sections and very gentle deliveries of a stillborn child, if given the choice I would choose the former. Having seen both, first hand, up close and personal, makes me agree with Hoosier and Kelly and wifeandmom. When it all comes down to it, IMO (can't state this enough...it's simply my OPINION here, folks), having a c-section but ending up with a live baby is a price I would willingly pay over and over and over. I have never given birth to a stillborn child personally, but having witnessed it many many MANY times, it really puts the whole "a c-section is a tragedy" mindset into perspective.

Just my 2 cents.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I said, you are still entitled to your own feelings of grief and rage, but looking at others' situations puts it very much into perspective.

I'm sorry, I just feel strongly for HDM and Kelly, as I have taken care of many many many women as they labored and delivered stillborn babies. I have had to tell a mother I cannot find a heartbeat. I have coded babies for hours only to have them die despite all our efforts. I guess I've just seen some pretty horrific things wrt to childbirth, and once you've witnessed that kind of stuff, been a part of it, in the thick of it, it really puts it into perspective.

I *understand* why some women grieve over having c-sections or inductions or whatever. They are entitled to their grief. But I very much understand the perspective of a mother who has lost a child. It's something you just can't explain until you've been there.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Me, too - I've done all of that and a bag of chips. I feel for them immensely and can literally picture what they have been through because I have btdt with other women...
sorry I took you wrong...but I still wanted to say what I said, anyway.
I think I will leave it alone now.

continuing to wish healing and understanding to all...


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
Me, too - I've done all of that and a bag of chips. I feel for them immensely and can literally picture what they have been through because I have btdt with other women...
sorry I took you wrong...but I still wanted to say what I said, anyway.
I think I will leave it alone now.

continuing to wish healing and understanding to all...


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## apple_dumpling (Oct 20, 2004)

Just wanted to give a hug out there to all the mama's who lost their precious babies. I had an emergency c/s due to my blood pressure (it was up in the heart attack/stroke range) and I will admit I did complain a little to people about not having the birth I wanted...

Not too long after dd was born, I had a dear friend in another state lose her baby at 38 weeks due to a placental abruption.. it was such a shock, and never again have I complained about my c/s... because I did get to come home with my babe, no matter how violent my birth was, I walked out with a baby, and the sadness I feel for my friend (and all of you mamas who have experienced a loss) is so overwhelming that it forced me to put the whole birthing process into perspective... and to realize how selfish it is of me to even think about having had a horrible birth (and yes it was traumatic) when there are mamas out there who are grieving so terribly.








hugs again.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.

Dove,
First, I am sorry for whatever you have been through. I don't know your story, but I wanted to address what you have said and let you know that I _do_ have compassion and I _do_ care for others. I have been through 9 months of hell. I feel completely empty inside but that does not mean I don't care about others feelings. It is very hard for me to show feelings to other people now b/c I am so wrapped in my own grief x 2. Something is important to everyone and I can respect that. What I have a problem with is the insensitivity that Kelly spoke of and that I have personally experienced. I try to think the best of people, but there is something a little bit cruel about a person approaching you and saying, "So, did you have a miscarriage or something? My sister had one of those and it was no big deal." Or, how about "Just be glad you can have more, honey." And yes, those were both comments made to me not 2 weeks pp. One was at my daughter's funeral!

Losing a child has taught me so many lessons about life that I probably would not have experienced had I not lost a child. I was overwhelmed by the caring and compassion of complete and total strangers from all over the world and also right here at MDC. I could write a novel about what people have done for us since Reagan died. People I will probably never meet, but that took the time out of their lives, their busy schedules, forgot about their own problems and completely enveloped my family with love.

Honestly, people need perspective sometimes. I have a hard time being compassionate and feeling sorry for those who mourn their birth not going the way they planned. They do have a right to how they feel but to say something like that to a mother who's arms are empty is completely out of line. Forgive me, but I would trade places with them in a second.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.

Yes, this is what i mean. I had a mc at 12 weeks - would i bargain with the devil and have another cs if it meant i could have a live baby? yes.

Do i think my mc was sad and terrible and unfiar - yes. A woman i was friends with at the time was 2 weeks behind me in pg. Right after i had the mc she said she hated her baby and wished she would mc. She punched herself in the stomach infront of me. She was having marriage issues. Did it really really really hurt me? yes. Did i lose it on her - nope - i figured she jsut didnt get it and her issues were so big to her that she could not see that she was being insensitive.
I know moms who have lost full term babies and i think "wow that would be so hard, i cannot even imagine" but it isnt up to me to decide whose grief is worse you cannot judge grief. Your pain is what it is and it is NEVER helpful to say "your feelings arent okay, you SHOULD BE GRATEFUL etc"

Like someone on another board siad "you dont tell a rape victim - hey it could be worse - at least you werent murdered"

Maybe this is the worst thing they have experienced to date. Maybe it will be the worst thing ever. You dont know and you cant choose thier pain and grief for them.

And again, i was not trying to be insensitive just saying this is the most horrifying thing i have ever seen. I dont work in an area where i see death or do surgery so this was shocking for me.


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## Zaxmama (Mar 2, 2004)

my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..







:


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Wow, I am really shocked and my emotions are a mess.

I was crying tears of sadness and happiness over Amy(HDM's), A_D's, and Finch's posts...and now I am just angry.







:

I guess I probably need to stop reading this topic. I don't know if I am taking this too personally or what.....

The rape and murder comment is WAY OUT OF LINE! Don't even get me started on that.

Like Amy, I DO have compassion and I do care about people and their feelings. I think people have the right to complain about their traumatic births...but I also think it's important for those people to look at it in a different perspective. It really could be worse! That's the truth.

And for anyone that wouldn't let lose on someone who punches their own unborn baby in front of me....well I guess you are a better person than me.... I can't even explain my emotions on that subject.







:


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zaxmama*
my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..







:


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I admit I only skimmed most of the thread.

First







to the mamas who have lost babies and those who had traumatic c-sections.

I have had 3 c-sections, the first 2 were ok, the last one was a really rough surgery compared to the first 2, it wasn't the Dr. necesssarily so much as scar tissue and what not being an issue. I think experiences can vary greatly with this surgery.

I am hoping to TTC soon, and will have another c-section (elective- yes), I could not view the link from the OP, but it will give me something to discuss with my new OB should I be so lucky to get to it again. I will talk to him about my hopes for a more peaceful c-section (barring no problems with my health or a baby's), and explain the general respect for the "birth" that I want.

These discussions are always so very painful for so many









PS- as for the title of this thread, the OP should consider herself blessed if a a rough c-section is *truly* the most horrible thing she has ever seen.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zaxmama*
my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..







:

Everyone has to choose what they are comfortable with. And i did not ONCE say cs was lazy..i dont get where all these opinions "i" have are coming from??


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
I watched a video of a live cs...i nearly threw up and had a bit of a panic attack

It was so violent. I have more to say but i just cant right now

http://www.or-live.com/distributors/NLM/rnh.cfm?id=213

ETA
OKAY, i am coming back on to "defend" myself. I had a cs. It was necessary BUT my baby suffered a stroke because of it. She has been permanently harmed. I was in maternal special care because of it. I signed out of the hosp AMA after 7 days. DD was in the NICU for 10 days. We are both still suffering (over 2 years later) because of this.

I am sorry that seeing a mother torn up and treated like meat makes me sick to my stomach. I am sorry that seeing a baby yanked up by her tiy little feet makes me have a panic attack. I did NOT say i am discusted with anyone who has a cs. I am so so horrified that it is such a "nothing" procedure that 30% of births are happening this way. Everyday i talk online with moms who are still hurting form thier cs. Being denied vbac. They have been bullied, lied to and pressured. I think the whole thing is sad. I think the doctor was rude and that baby had some trouble. Now with this disclaimer can i go back to showing a link that i think others would find interesting? Having NEVER seen it myself it was HORRIFYING to see what they did to me (actuallu this was better because at least they didnt take out her uterus to sew it up.

Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Wow, I am really shocked and my emotions are a mess.

I was crying tears of sadness and happiness over Amy(HDM's), A_D's, and Finch's posts...and now I am just angry.







:

I guess I probably need to stop reading this topic. I don't know if I am taking this too personally or what.....

The rape and murder comment is WAY OUT OF LINE! Don't even get me started on that.

Like Amy, I DO have compassion and I do care about people and their feelings. I think people have the right to complain about their traumatic births...but I also think it's important for those people to look at it in a different perspective. It really could be worse! That's the truth.

And for anyone that wouldn't let lose on someone who punches their own unborn baby in front of me....well I guess you are a better person than me.... I can't even explain my emotions on that subject.







:

Maybe i just rub you wrong. I did not ever say in this thread that cs is lazy - living healthy babies are not important - or start a debate on the merits of cs v vb.

I even stated many pages back that you can ALWAYS find anyone with a better situation or a worse situation. The woman i spoke about also ate nothing but junk (um 6 sodas a DAY!) throughout her pg - had a scare that she would have a very small unhealthy baby etc. I tried to gently support her because i CARE abot this baby and i care that she not get cut. She ended up with a perfect very short very pleasant home waterbirth. I was jealous about the unfairness of it all. I ate right, excercised read all the "good" books etc and i got cut and both my and my dd were hurt.

As for the rape/murder comment it is the same thing - they could have had it worse. I have gotten that comment before as i have the coment of "well it really wasnt a baby - 12 weeks isnt long enough to really be attached. youll have another" etc. It is the same vein of "you cant complain because i or someone else has it worse"
And when people were complaining of thier baby nursing all night while my dd was in the nicu i was thinking "well at least you CAN nurse your baby - my baby is too hopped up on drugs to be able to nurse and has a feeding tube"
But i didnt say it.
BECAUSE The "you could have it worse - you should be grateful " game is NEVER productive or helpful.

On another list i am on we frequently have a talk aobut this "grateful" line

When someone says "a healthy baby s all that matters" what they are saying is "healhty moms dont matter" "moms dont matter" sick babies dont matter" "dead babies dont matter"
They take value away from all those other groups.

I had an unhealthy baby so when i hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" i hear that both me and my baby dont matter.

Please go read this if you really think the "grateful" game is productive

http://www.birthtruth.org/grateful.htm

And again. I have felt sorrow, loss, etc. I have not met the sadness of losing a full term infant. I was told my dd and i were not going to make it that we would both die. But i stand firm in my resolve.

*The "you could have it worse - you should be grateful " game is NOT productive or helpful.*


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.

I too, thought I was done with this topic...

If you were in anyway referring to the thumbs up I gave Zaxmama....it wasn't a thumbs up because she had a c/s....... I really don't see any problem with c/s vs vaginal deliveries..the focus should be on what's important...the baby. It shouldn't matter how he/she was brought into this world. The thumbs up was because of her positive attitude! She wasn't going to sit and mourn her unideal delivery. She was willing to do anything (ie: elective c/s) as long as it benefited her child.

I am willing to bet most women would rather delivery vaginally, but that's not the way it goes all the time. Yes it's sad...but yes really there are worse things than a c/s. Period.

As far as thing mihgt not be the thread for bereaved mothers....you are a wrong. This thread was not titled "Let me mourn my brith experience, even thougt I had a perfectly healthy child" If that was the case, you bet I wouldn't have read it. I opened this thread because I thought it was really about something horrible. You may not like this but it needs to be said.... In my life experiene a C/s is not horrible. Watching doctors working on you dying child, watching them make mistakes, watching her fight for her life, and then in the end, holding her in your arms, crying, pleading for her life, she takes her last breath and dies, is something horrible.







Having a funeral for your child is something horrible.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing their situation to yours. Having a healthy baby is not the only thing that is important.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing their situation to yours. Having a healthy baby is not the only thing that is important.

I am not discounting it... I do actually feel bad for women who had a terrible birth experience, really I do. But I feel worse for the ones who lost their baby. Life will go one after a terrible birth, but after a loss, life changes completely. It's life changing. And for some, life doesn't go on.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.

Thank you again with your eloquence...

I am going to share though i wil probably regret it...i dont think i an be beaten down on this thread anymore.

I was mostly having a panic attack because now i see what they did to me..to my baby. It makes it so much more real. Now i can see how roughly they treated her, i felt it before, i felt the yanking, i head and felt them pull out my uterus to sew it up, i felt the staples and heard them going in. It was scary - i kept yelling at the comp screen for them to stop hurting that baby.

Once my dd was out and i was told she was okay i just sent somewhere else...that is what you do when your mind is telling you to RUN to FIGHT to get away form these people who are hurting you. That is what you do - hide somewhere else...

And yes, i am lucky. We both made it out alive. I had heavy therapy for ptsd from this whole thing. I cant drive by the hosp without my bp going up and feeling very frightened. Which is hard since the university is a block away and i find myself in that area at least 3 times per week.

I am lucky - dd nursed for 2 years after our bad start.
If you saw her you would think she was an average kid with just a bit too much aggression.

But, she didnt start to let us cuddle, hug, or hold her till she was around 18 months. Touch SCARED her. The neuro said "stroke babies" are often like this. So when i saw people cuddling close thier nursing newborns it cut deep as dd hated to nurse only because she HAD to touch me - so she would sit as far away as possible and actually hold the breast away from her.

She will still not really tolerate anyone to touch her head/neck at all. It freaks her out big time.

During her EI eval they said she has the emotional skills of a 13 month old and she may never catch up...that was the part of her brain that was destroyed. She doesnt get it when someone is hurt and sad - it doesnt connect in her brain. She has really innappropriate responses to things that should be sad or scary.

She doesnt hold a spoon

She still throws up out her nose. the neuro siad "yeah alot of tube babies throw up out thier noses for awhile - she'll probably grow out of it."

Yes it could be worse - she could still be on the tube. That does not mean i am not sad about what is.

I have busted my ass to work everyday on HEALING her. Getting her healthy. Damn right i am pissed that she could have been okay had they just not messed up.

They told me we would both die, but we lived...but add that to the trauma of having planned a hb and then having a cs.

And like that essay says it does play on your sense of womanhood.

The thought process is "i could not birth my first baby - i am not a woman"
"i could not keep my second baby alive - i am not a woman"
"i cannot get pg again - i am not a woman"

My mom had 5 kids - i was a footling breech at home - how could i NOT birth a baby??

Do i still feel for those who have never been pg? Whose children passed at birth? at 4 years old? Yes. But i still grieve. My grief does not take away from thiers and thiers does not take away from mine.

This is all i can say for now. Gotta go get my tire fixed.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
I too, thought I was done with this topic...

If you were in anyway referring to the thumbs up I gave Zaxmama....it wasn't a thumbs up because she had a c/s....... I really don't see any problem with c/s vs vaginal deliveries..the focus should be on what's important...the baby. It shouldn't matter how he/she was brought into this world. The thumbs up was because of her positive attitude! She wasn't going to sit and mourn her unideal delivery. She was willing to do anything (ie: elective c/s) as long as it benefited her child.

I am willing to bet most women would rather delivery vaginally, but that's not the way it goes all the time. Yes it's sad...but yes really there are worse things than a c/s. Period.

As far as thing mihgt not be the thread for bereaved mothers....you are a wrong. This thread was not titled *"Let me mourn my brith experience, even thougt I had a perfectly healthy child"* If that was the case, you bet I wouldn't have read it. I opened this thread because I thought it was really about something horrible. You may not like this but it needs to be said.... In my life experiene a C/s is not horrible. Watching doctors working on you dying child, watching them make mistakes, watching her fight for her life, and then in the end, holding her in your arms, crying, pleading for her life, she takes her last breath and dies, is something horrible.







Having a funeral for your child is something horrible.

And not to be picky but i did not have a perfectly healhty child as i have stated many times. But i guess like all things her "damage" is not "bad enough" to warrant my feelings.

And i do think cs is waaay to prevalent. i thnk it is important to work towards lowering the primary cs rate. cs is dangerous for mothers and babies. Yes in 5-10% of cases it is necessarry but even moms who have a necessary cs still deserve compassion. I still dont want my worst enemy to have a cs if it is not needed and even then i want it to be as peaceful as possible for her and baby. It isnt a fight against each other it is a fight FOR moms and babies.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
And not to be picky but i did not have a perfectly healhty child as i have stated many times. But i guess like all things her "damage" is not "bad enough" to warrant my feelings.

And i do think cs is waaay to prevalent. i thnk it is important to work towards lowering the primary cs rate. cs is dangerous for mothers and babies. Yes in 5-10% of cases it is necessarry but even moms who have a necessary cs still deserve compassion. I still dont want my worst enemy to have a cs if it is not needed and even then i want it to be as peaceful as possible for her and baby. It isnt a fight against each other it is a fight FOR moms and babies.

I've never once said that your daughter's birth wasn't "bad enough" to warrent your feelings. I have ONLY been talking about those who mourn a horrible birth, but get a healthy child. I never said anything about your personal situation. My opinions came from when this thread got off topic and was talking about how most c/s's were terrible.

Birth is dangerous for mother's and babies. There are risks with both c/s's and vaginal births.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

I found elements of that "grateful" poem pretty annoying. I don't think of my son as having been simply "removed" from my body. Ya know, just because he wasn't pushed out of my vagina doesn't mean he wasn't _birthed_. You remove a tumor. You birth a child. My child is not a tumor.

I must say, and I'm sure this will step on some toes but right now frankly my toes are feeling pretty squished....there is an overly pervasive attitude here that c-sections are just flat out evil, and that a woman who has one has failed somehow. Starlets that had c/s for breech delivery (a legit reason to me, having seen gruesome results from vaginal breech deliveries) are raked over the coals for having "unnecessary" surgery. Maybe they felt it was necessary. Maybe the risks of a vaginal breech delivery were too great in their minds. Having a c-section doesn't make you the devil. I had a great c-section and by golly, intend on having repeats with any subsequent children.

So you don't agree with c/s. Fine. But not having pushed a baby out of my vagina does not make me a lesser mother nor does it make me a lesser woman. If a woman chooses UC or HBAC I don't go bashing her for being a reckless nutcase who's endangering her child's life. I swear sometimes I feel the need to put a scarlet "C" on my chest around here.









I just had to get that off my chest, it's been bugging me and festering for quite a while.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Whoa. I'm so done w/this thread. It's hurtful and I really hope those of you who think I'm uncaring and uncompassionate b/c of my loss never have to suffer a loss. FWIW, I'm not in a contest, but this thread needed some perspective and I'm not sorry for what I said.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Life will go one after a terrible birth, but after a loss, life changes completely. It's life changing. And for some, life doesn't go on.

Life changes completely for the mother who has a uterine or bladder prolapse, the mother who loses the ability to ever again get pregnant. Life changes completely for the mother who can never move the same way again because of a poorly done c-section, life changes completely for the woman whose traumatic birth reminds her of her past rape experience and so on and so forth.

Does the mother who lost her 12 year old to cancer trump the mom who had a stillborn? Is there a hierarchy of grief? Of course not. When patients in a medical setting are asked to rate their pain, they are taken at their word and then medicated accordingly. Why? Because there is no way for us to know exactly how painful, or life changing someone's traumatic experience was. For you the highest good would have been a live birth, some other women would feel differently. I miscarried a pregnancy, knowing now the problems that child had, I'm glad that the child did not make it into this world. I know that would make some of you think I'm Satan incarnate, but that's my right.

I just don't see the point in the competition here. Your pain is your right and it is valid, but if you can do nothing but put other mothers down for their suffering, then why say anything at all?


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

I am now done as well. For good this time.

What started all of this was the original post. It stated that this c/s video was horrible and that the OP almost threw up. Yadi Yadi Yadda.... Of course now the OP has changed the first post..how convient. In the first post there was no mention of how horrible her c/s was and the pain it caused her and her daughter. Had all of that been mentioned in the begining I feel this thread wouldn't have taken on the direction it did. And I am truly sorry for what she and her daugther endured or anyone that lost a child or anoyne else whos child suffered from a violent birth. I am not sorry for the people that whine about their birth not being "ideal", because yes, it could have been worse. Their child could have been born with developmental problems or died.

I also tried to give some perspective, but for the most part, most don't want to hear it. They think I am playing some sort of game.

For the record, rape and murder are NOWHERE near the same content as a loss or horrible C/S. I don't know how anyone in their right mind would believe so.

Lighten up, C/S's are not the end of the world.

If you reply simply to bash me, don't bother, I will not read it.








:

I am glad there were a few women on here that "Get it"


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I see both sides. I can see why she would think it's the "most horrible thing ever" after reading her story.

I'm an elective c/s mama, and I think it's a wonderful thing. Especially for those who _need_ it.

I was raped, and it was a very traumatic experience for me. If I had to watch that, I would feel the same way the OP is feeling about the c/s video.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Lighten up, C/S's are not the end of the world.

I repeat: you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing your situation to theirs.

Of course not all c-sections are violent and traumatic, whether necessary, emergent, or elective. Some operative births are beautiful, wonderful, best for baby and mama. Some are not. Some are performed with the intent to save a life or lives, some are not. Some are performed by surgeons that have loving and caring and healing hands and a nice bedside manner, some are not. Some are exactly the way mama envisioned her birth, some are not. When they are not, mama has to somehow align the birth outcome with her feelings of (fill in the blank)....and when that happens, she needs support in getting through her feelings of (xyz) and out to the other side to feel complete as a woman and somehow not failed, inadequate, or less of a woman than someone who has a good experience (vag or c-sec).


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Yadi Yadi Yadda....

Of course now the OP has changed the first post..*how convient*.

I am not sorry for the people that *whine* about their birth not being "ideal", because yes, *it could have been worse.* Their child could have been born with developmental problems or died.

I also tried to give some perspective, but for the most part, most don't want to hear it. *They think I am playing some sort of game.*

For the record, rape and murder are NOWHERE near the same content as a loss or horrible C/S. *I don't know how anyone in their right mind would believe so.*

*Lighten up,* C/S's are not the end of the world.

If you reply simply to bash me, don't bother, I will not read it.








:

*I am glad there were a few women on here that "Get it"*









I'm sorry, but I have got to call you out on this one - while I feel incredibly sorry that you lost a child, it does not really give you the right to be so incredibly horrid to the rest of the posters here.
who's bashing who?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
I'm sorry, but I have got to call you out on this one - while I feel incredibly sorry that you lost a child, it does not really give you the right to be so incredibly horrid to the rest of the posters here.
who's bashing who?

Dove- she's gone


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

I know, I know - I am just infuriated.







: Deepest apologies.

eta - actually, I am dismayed. I'm on mdc, right? Now that we are all walking around on eggshells and quantifying grief we can't seem to have an honest, disclaimer free discussion. Why can't we seem to talk about birth and violence and how that makes a woman feel?


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

I can totally see where someone might find their C/S (or vaginal birth, in many cases) to be violent and horrible. But (after having 2 really good birth experiences and one really scary one that left me w/lasting neurological damage from an epidural) I just can't see where the worst birth experience in the world is as bad as losing your baby. NOTHING that could have happened to me (or that did) during my dc's births could compare to holding my dead baby, thinking of all that could have been. And I can only speculate, but am pretty sure that working through the horrible emotional pain of having a negative birth experience would be easier when you get to see your dc's face every day, snuggle them close, nurse them to sleep, than it would be to have to work through that pain associated with a bad birth experience AND deal with the fact that your child is dead, too.

I'm not trying to minimize anything that has happened to anyone, but truly, if your child is alive and well, (OP, I'm sorry that your dd was hurt during her birth. I have heard so many horrid things about UNM hospital







I'm sure it makes your experience doubly hard to deal with) things really COULD be worse.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
For the record, rape and murder are NOWHERE near the same content as a loss or horrible C/S. I don't know how anyone in their right mind would believe so.

Respectfully, I honestly don't believe she was saying that rape and murder were comparable to a c-section. She was demonstrating the hierarchy of bad things and how something can always be worse. So if you are raped and you try to deal with that pain, having someone say you could have been murdered so you should be grateful might feel dismissive.

That might not seem like a good comparison because some raped people wish they were dead and kill themselves afterwards. But I think in some cases women are aware they could be killed and try to preserve their life and then later feel guilty, as if they should have done more to help themselves.

People are going to have bad feelings about things that happen to them, no matter how much worse things could be. That is just human nature. I also think it is human nature when your own emotions are stretched to the breaking point that you retreat into yourself and try and recover. We will not have huge reserves of compassion in ourselves when we are so hurt ourselves--I think that is protective. I know that when I was in the open wound, my world is forever changed stage of grief, the things that had formerly moved me to tears left me dry-eyed and untouched. Eventually my capacity for empathy for more situations came back.

I don't know why a friend would feel the need to lay her sadness about having a c-section onto someone who just lost a baby and would give anything to have a c-section so she could have her child. I wouldn't be able to be around her or talk about that issue with her. I would also feel angry, like she was trying to tell me I was wrong for how I was feeling while expecting compassion for herself.

At the same time, I am not happy with the medical establishment's attitude about c-sections and how some doctors unncessarily play on the fears of parents who are trying to make an educated decision.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
I repeat: you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing your situation to theirs.

Dove...thank you. Words seem to come easily to you.

Mamas who have lost a child....I am so sorry.

I had many family members and friends tell me to get over my c-section trauma. It didn't help me at all. Its something I find very difficult to explain and the feelings have gotten stronger since I've become pregnant. I think I'll take this over to the vbac forum and look for some support there.

Really, I just want to the medical community to respect women's minds and bodies as well as the babies they help deliver.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

hugs, miamimami. You _should_ be able to talk about it here - that's what I am trying to advocate (the right to feel this pain). I'm so sorry that the people (friends/ fam members) around you are so insensitive or just refuse to understand.
I can see why being pregnant again would make those feelings come up.

I am a mother who has carried life and given birth, and I am also a healthcare worker.
My wish is also that *all* hcw's would respect birth and choices and hear women out and treat us and our births (and our newborns) as the sacred beings/events that they are. Keep talking, keep advocating for gentle birth! Don't push down your feelings, let them be heard. If they are pushed down for you (eg, told not to whine about your experience, by other women or family or friends or nurses, or docs) and never let out, _things will never change_. We will never be able to birth with the freedom of knowing that no matter how we do it, we will be attended in the most tender and sacred way possible.
That is why, to me, this issue is so important and deserves so much care.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
I see both sides. I can see why she would think it's the "most horrible thing ever" after reading her story.

I'm an elective c/s mama, and I think it's a wonderful thing. Especially for those who _need_ it.

I was raped, and it was a very traumatic experience for me. If I had to watch that, I would feel the same way the OP is feeling about the c/s video.

YES! this is so true. If i had to watch my rape (which btw FOR ME was less traumatic than my cs) I think i would feel just as ill.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola*
*Respectfully, I honestly don't believe she was saying that rape and murder were comparable to a c-section. She was demonstrating the hierarchy of bad things and how something can always be worse. So if you are raped and you try to deal with that pain, having someone say you could have been murdered so you should be grateful might feel dismissive.*
At the same time, I am not happy with the medical establishment's attitude about c-sections and how some doctors unncessarily play on the fears of parents who are trying to make an educated decision.

Yes, that is what i was saying that this pissing contest of "who has it worst is not helpful to ANYONE...EVER"

And seeing how this surgery is and some of the stupid things they said in the video is just another reason to be mad for all those OTHER MOTHERS who have cs unecessarily.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo*
I can totally see where someone might find their C/S (or vaginal birth, in many cases) to be violent and horrible. But (after having 2 really good birth experiences and one really scary one that left me w/lasting neurological damage from an epidural) I just can't see where the worst birth experience in the world is as bad as losing your baby. NOTHING that could have happened to me (or that did) during my dc's births could compare to holding my dead baby, thinking of all that could have been. And I can only speculate, but am pretty sure that working through the horrible emotional pain of having a negative birth experience would be easier when you get to see your dc's face every day, snuggle them close, nurse them to sleep, than it would be to have to work through that pain associated with a bad birth experience AND deal with the fact that your child is dead, too.

I'm not trying to minimize anything that has happened to anyone, but truly, if your child is alive and well, (OP, I'm sorry that your dd was hurt during her birth. I have heard so many horrid things about UNM hospital







I'm sure it makes your experience doubly hard to deal with) things really COULD be worse.


I certainly think losing ones child is worse but again this discussion was never about that - i was floored when it became "stop whining it could be worse"

And we were at pres which has 2 diferent actions being taken right now for my treatment with the cs and subsequent treatment with my mc.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
I am now done as well. For good this time.

What started all of this was the original post. It stated that this c/s video was horrible and that the OP almost threw up. Yadi Yadi Yadda.... Of course now the OP has changed the first post..*how convient*. In the first post there was no mention of how horrible her c/s was and the pain it caused her and her daughter. Had all of that been mentioned in the begining I feel this thread wouldn't have taken on the direction it did. And I am truly sorry for what she and her daugther endured or anyone that lost a child or anoyne else whos child suffered from a violent birth. *I am not sorry for the people that whine about their birth not being "ideal", because yes, it could have been worse. Their child could have been born with developmental problems or died.*

I also tried to give some perspective, but for the most part, most don't want to hear it. They think I am playing some sort of game.

For the record, rape and murder are NOWHERE near the same content as a loss or horrible C/S. I don't know how anyone in their right mind would believe so.

*Lighten up, C/S's are not the end of the world.*

If you reply simply to bash me, don't bother, I will not read it.








:

I am glad there were a few women on here that "Get it"









I know this poster is not on this thread any longer but thsi is the attitude i am talking about really hurting other moms. I know moms who had vag births but didnt like some small amount. It does not DAMAGE me in ANY way to hear them complain - it is their pain their feelings and they have a right to feel that way.

I think it is aweful to say to someone "cs are not the end of the world" "mc is not the end of the world" it is the same thing. Discounting someones feelings is wrong.

I feel all the moms with cs and perfectly healhty babies have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT AS I TO COMPLAIN. I think ALL feelings are valid no matter what.

AS for changing my op - i ONLY added the disclaimer with a very visable ETA i left ALL of my other words intact to keep the integrety of the original post without having to make every other poster look at all my replies.

The worst thing my dd has seen is me with a bloody nose - i dont say "oh you fricken crybaby its just a bloody nose - you could have seen me shot!"
No, i understand her fears are just as valid as mine.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

: This entire thread, to me,sucks. I have worked very hard over the past 3 years to overcome the post-traumatic stress of our emergency csection. Also ppd- brought on by the csection. I think the best thing one can do (looking n from the outside- as someone who hasn't had a section) is NOT propagate all this crap... Yah, it sucks. But, it's impossible to move on from it unless we're allowed to embrace the "birth" of our child- regardless of that birth. It took so much for me to stop considering my son "not born" because he came via section. But, the truth is... he WAS BORN. As much as your child was. And the ugly of it all can take place in a vaginal birth too. A docs bedside manner changes per doc- or surgeon. The "roughness" of a csection isn't often remembered... I didn't see a thing. It's just the emotianal anguish after the fact.

Anyway... it's disgusting how often I have to read posts about the inhumanity of csections, etc etc etc.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
Anyway... it's disgusting how often I have to read posts about the inhumanity of csections, etc etc etc.

yeah, it's pretty disgusting how many c-sections are unnecessary and the mama has to reconcile the loss of a natural process that given time and help (or no help/intervention perhaps) she could have been perfectly capable of. No wonder you have to read those accounts so disgustingly often.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
I found elements of that "grateful" poem pretty annoying. I don't think of my son as having been simply "removed" from my body. Ya know, just because he wasn't pushed out of my vagina doesn't mean he wasn't _birthed_. You remove a tumor. You birth a child. My child is not a tumor.

I must say, and I'm sure this will step on some toes but right now frankly my toes are feeling pretty squished....there is an overly pervasive attitude here that c-sections are just flat out evil, and that a woman who has one has failed somehow. Starlets that had c/s for breech delivery (a legit reason to me, having seen gruesome results from vaginal breech deliveries) are raked over the coals for having "unnecessary" surgery. Maybe they felt it was necessary. Maybe the risks of a vaginal breech delivery were too great in their minds. Having a c-section doesn't make you the devil. I had a great c-section and by golly, intend on having repeats with any subsequent children.

So you don't agree with c/s. Fine. But not having pushed a baby out of my vagina does not make me a lesser mother nor does it make me a lesser woman. If a woman chooses UC or HBAC I don't go bashing her for being a reckless nutcase who's endangering her child's life. I swear sometimes I feel the need to put a scarlet "C" on my chest around here.









I just had to get that off my chest, it's been bugging me and festering for quite a while.

I'll just quote myself, as I feel the need to repeat my post.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

No one is lesser for having had a c-section. I am only trying to say that women who feel deep down that theirs was unnecessary or who felt violated or who felt like the experience was violent needs support (if they want it), not words lke "get over it". And that their grief and feelings are VALID!!!!!!!!

my gawd, I repeat - I am on mdc, right???














:


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
my gawd, I repeat - I am on mdc, right???














:

Are _my_ feelings valid that women who have c-sections are constantly raked over the coals here on blessed MDC? Gimme a freakin' break. Normal posters aren't raked because it's against the UA. But you bet your sweet patootie that any public figure that has a c-section is lambasted. I especially loved the comment that went something like, "can't any of these starlets give birth _normally?_" The feelings and attitudes are crystal clear. C-section equals failure. _Elective_ c-section means you're in cahoots with satan himself. But my feelings aren't valid because my son's birth goes against the NFL "ideal," whatever _that_ is. It's a pervasive attitude here, and I for one am sick of it.

Again, I need to sew a scarlet C on my chest.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I really do see what you mean. I see the threads about stars having babies via c-sec and how they are put down, too. I choose not to participate, even though my true feelings are that really when a star chooses to have a c-sec because they feel entitled to not feel the pain of labor, or whatever the non-medical reason may be, I feel sad for them. Sad that they feel entitled and sad that they are not in touch with the power and uber-feminine aspect of birth. (as opposed to the paternalistic ideal of operative birth being superior in a woman who is perfectly capable of a trial of labor).

You are sooooooo not getting me.

I'm not brandishing you or anyone else.








Exactly the opposite. And about the mdc comment - I am wondering where is everyone???? I cannot even believe this topic is going largely undiscussed. Where are the women that have had c-section and are now wondering or hurting? Where are the gentle birth advocates??? Is this topic really that played out? Have we really retreated to our own corners? God, I hope not.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
Is this topic really that played out? Have we really retreated to our own corners? God, I hope not.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what has happened. Women who have c-sections are hurting, sometimes from the c-section itself, sometimes from the remarks made here about their births and assumptions made about the women themselves.

I really don't think this topic can be talked about civily here, mostly b/c lots of women have open wounds on this, and can't talk about it objectively very well (on both sides). I was that way for quite some time, I couldn't stand anyone talking about the high c-section rate, it hurt *me* they didn't mean to, I was just hurting, yk? Now, threads where people openly attack someone for having a c-section b/c that person is a celebrity and they *ass*ume that person didn't feel like laboring or something, well, that is far from what I expect here too.

Too much hurt, that pretty much sums up why I don't think these conversations ever go well here.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
yeah, it's pretty disgusting how many c-sections are unnecessary and the mama has to reconcile the loss of a natural process that given time and help (or no help/intervention perhaps) she could have been perfectly capable of. No wonder you have to read those accounts so disgustingly often.

eh? How about those sections that are 100% needed to ensure the survival of the child? Why are they not given creedance? Why make this mama feel like SH** for not being able to "preform"? Why cheapen The section-mama's birth experiance? WHY? 'Cause that's what happens to me every time I have to hear the constant section-bashing that happens here.

If I have another child I will anything and everything to not have a csection. yet, I do not want to have to "look down" on my ds's birth in the process.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
I'm not brandishing you or anyone else.








Exactly the opposite. And about the mdc comment - I am wondering where is everyone???? I cannot even believe this topic is going largely undiscussed. Where are the women that have had c-section and are now wondering or hurting? Where are the gentle birth advocates??? Is this topic really that played out? Have we really retreated to our own corners? God, I hope not.

I'm here.
No, I don't think a lot of people have gotten the jist of this thread. Women who have had c-sections are not failures. I don't think I am a failure. I think the medical establishment has failed many women and babies. They keep us selectiveley informed on what our options are...or rather they don't give us any options. There is a lot of de-humanizing going on by the powers that be.
I am perfectly ok with a woman who has chosen an elective c-section who has done her research and come to the decision herself, because that means that she has taken matters into her own hands.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
eh? How about those sections that are 100% needed to ensure the survival of the child? Why are they not given creedance? Why make this mama feel like SH** for not being able to "preform"? Why cheapen The section-mama's birth experiance? WHY? 'Cause that's what happens to me every time I have to hear the constant section-bashing that happens here.

If I have another child I will anything and everything to not have a csection. yet, I do not want to have to "look down" on my ds's birth in the process.

Thats why dove specifically said "unnecessary"


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

I am very deliberate and careful in my wording. I give what I am writing a lot of thought and have been a "birth the way that is best/safest/insert adjective here" advocate for well over a decade. Both in practice and in word. Please, if you are jumping on me, re-read my statements with care and without feeling personally attacked because you have had a c-section. Thank you and blessings.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
I am very deliberate and careful in my wording. I give what I am writing a lot of thought and have been a "birth the way that is best/safest/insert adjective here" advocate for well over a decade. Both in practice and in word. Please, if you are jumping on me, re-read my statements with care and without feeling personally attacked because you have had a c-section. Thank you and blessings.

was the video of the csection an unnecessary one? Or, are you all assuming it to be? As usual.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiamiMami*
I'm here.
No, I don't think a lot of people have gotten the jist of this thread. Women who have had c-sections are not failures. I don't think I am a failure. I think the medical establishment has failed many women and babies. They keep us selectiveley informed on what our options are...or rather they don't give us any options. There is a lot of de-humanizing going on by the powers that be.
I am perfectly ok with a woman who has chosen an elective c-section who has done her research and come to the decision herself, because that means that she has taken matters into her own hands.

Interesting irony here. I am thinking on the subject which is banned here at MDC, another surgical procedure performed on women. Basically, the general attitude is that any talk or questioning of that is innapropriate, most here give any women in *that* situation the benefit of the doubt that she is doing what is right for her self and her body, her body, her choice. And most will deny to the end that the majority are done b/c of outside influence on the woman. Also- if someone dares to speak up saying that they regret *that* surgical procedure or that they are forever harmed by it, she is quickly silenced and met with utter distain for her words about her own experience.

ETA- if I linked to a video of said procedure, people would all assume that was the absolute worse case scenario of it and that in general, they are not that way at all.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
was the video of the csection an unnecessary one? Or, are you all assuming it to be? As usual.

it's not even really about that (to me). What I have come to in regards to this particular video is that if watching a c-sec gives someone who has had one a visceral, knee jerk reaction of pain and horror over what they themselves (and their babe) has been through, then that mama deserves our support and care, irregardless of our own experiences.
They deserve care and consideration.

please check your venom.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Peppermint, your replies are so true. It's really very heartwrenching the way we end up treating each other.


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## teacup (Nov 12, 2005)

I don't normally get involved in threads like this.

Perhaps I don't completely understand. In fact, I'm certain I don't, because I've not had a C-section. However, after reading some of the latest posts in this thread I feel secure suggesting to you, edamommy, that you and dove are on the same side (since sides have been discussed). Sometimes I wonder if the final straw comes along in a relatively unrelated situation and all our feelings are vented in that instance?


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Sigh. Okay. I've fed my child and been outside for a little bit, now I feel like I can come back to this.

As for the subject of brandishing women who have c-sections here, Dove, I do not think you specifically do that. I see it _a lot_ here, though. Here's an interesting question...has anyone ever thought, for even a minute, that maybe the reason so many women have so much agony and grief over c-sections is _because of attitudes like the ones I see so much of here,_ that c-sections are horrible? Think about it. If all you ever hear from your peers (I consider this my peer group) is how awful c-sections are, and see them blasting women who have c-sections, talking about how awful epidurals and hospital births are, don't you think that gets into your head? Don't you think that those voices and opinions echo in the head and heart of a woman who has an unplanned c-section? If all you ever hear is how awful and abnormal c-sections are, or how _violent_ they are, and then you end up having one, don't you think all of those attitudes of those surrounding you could even _slightly_ contribute to the depression, rage, and grief?

I love natural childbirth. I love it when it works. But sometimes, it _doesn't_, and as an advocate for _women_, I think that all women should be able to embrace their child's birth and not be made to feel that they are somehow less because they had a c/s or vacuum assist or epidural or whatever.

My son's birth was an emergency. I imagine it looked pretty "violent," but to me it wasn't. LOTS of time is dedicated here on this board to helping women heal after having a c-section or a less than ideal birth. LOTS. But hardly anyone recognizes the fact that for lots of women, having a c-section was neither violent nor a tragedy, and that we (who feel that way) resent hearing about how awful our child's method of delivery was. Our feelings aren't validated, because a c-section is taboo. How dare we have a _good_ experience? And if we state that we did have a good experience, well then, we just aren't "NFL material."


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Finch - hmmmm, YES!
thanks for coming back.

I could see how other women talking about how c-sections are horrible, etc, etc could spark feelings of _____ in women who have had a c-section. But, really, c-sections _have_ been normalized in this society and I think what we are seeing is a backlash-type response to that. It really _isn't_ "normal" to have a c-section rate of 30% (and up in some areas). So, I have to wonder that if a woman who has had a section hears this kind of discussion (or any kind of discussion) about c-sections, what is it actually triggering? It is my belief that we all have the innate ability to know what our bodies are capable of or what is right for our body or baby in the circumstance. So, if you having had an emergent/warranted c-section was truly, innately what needed to happen with you and baby to keep one or both of you safe and/or alive, great. But a woman who is rushed along, degraded, treated poorly, whose inner voice is drowned out by loud voices telling her she can't do it ends up with a c-section, she is going to have a hard time reconciling her birth and when she hears others talking about c-sections as generally unnescessary in the average birthing woman, she is going to start to question and hopefully start a process of healing and discovery.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

I agree, there is a way too high c-section rate here. We're inching up to Brazil. Scary. I just...I don't know. I guess I look at it kind of like divorce. Divorce used to be so hush hush and anyone who had one was horrible and a failure. Now, because people have some greater understanding (we hope), people realize that divorce is not a failure, and for some, it is a blessing. Like my sister. She had a divorce that in truth was a good thing. But because of my parents' attitude and her church's attitude toward divorce (bad, evil), she has lots of anger and grief that she still struggles with daily. She cries all the time. It's been 6 years. She has so much baggage and so many bad messages internalized from those around her that she continually beats on herself and is just full of rage and guilt. It's awful.

I think the same way about *some* c-section moms who have grief. Because they hear all this talk about how awful c-sections are, and hear their peers talking smack about women who have them, they feel like total crap and feel that they have failed. Even if it *was* a valid section, a true emergency, they still feel like they failed, like their birth was violent and abnormal and somehow "wrong." No woman should be made to feel like that.

I understand very much how and why women grieve over c/s. I see that acknowledged all the time here. What I don't see getting acknowledged is that sometimes, for some women, a c-section is a good thing, not evil, not violent, not failing.

I guess what it comes down to is you, Dove, see a lot of women not getting their grief acknowledged or downplayed, and I see the flipside, women being made to feel badly for what was originally a good thing for them. We just see different sides of the same issue, I guess.

Edited 'cause I forgot how long it had truly been since my sister's divorce.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I watched this video and the only thing that really bothered me was the way the baby was treated after birth. Why did they leave her in a basinette to cry by herself? Why did they cut the damn cord before she started breathing- the placenta was still attached at that point!!! Why didn't they bring her to her mother sooner?

My guess is that, in this hospital, her treatment wouldn't have been much different following a vaginal birth.

I was also kind of surprised at how small the incision was- it seemed like the maneuvering of the baby out of the incision was so similar to maneuvering out of the vagina that I couldn't really see the point in cutting the mother at all. Then when they enlarged the incision a bit it made sense!


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Well, yes, my position here on this thread is that some women just do not get the support they need when they feel badly about their birth experience.

I do see your position (eta- this is in response to Finch) and I think it sucks, too. I would be livid if I had an emergent c-section and someone tried to make me feel badly about it. And I would respond to that without a doubt.

There is a time and a place for an operative birth. I'm really sad that you may have ever felt like your birth experience was cheapened or looked down upon.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
Well, yes, my position here on this thread is that some women just do not get the support they need when they feel badly about their birth experience.

I do see your position (eta- this is in response to Finch) and I think it sucks, too. I would be livid if I had an emergent c-section and someone tried to make me feel badly about it. And I would respond to that without a doubt.

There is a time and a place for an operative birth. I'm really sad that you may have ever felt like your birth experience was cheapened or looked down upon.









Well thanks, I'm fine, though. Because I do it for a living, I guess I had a really huge buffer zone around me to deflect all the negative stuff. My c/s was necessary. I know that.

I don't want moms to feel bad on either side of the coin...for having a good experience or for needing to grieve.

Childbirth is just such a loaded issue.


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## Monkeyfeet (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
Sigh. Okay. I've fed my child and been outside for a little bit, now I feel like I can come back to this.

As for the subject of brandishing women who have c-sections here, Dove, I do not think you specifically do that. I see it _a lot_ here, though. Here's an interesting question...has anyone ever thought, for even a minute, that maybe the reason so many women have so much agony and grief over c-sections is _because of attitudes like the ones I see so much of here,_ that c-sections are horrible? Think about it. If all you ever hear from your peers (I consider this my peer group) is how awful c-sections are, and see them blasting women who have c-sections, talking about how awful epidurals and hospital births are, don't you think that gets into your head? Don't you think that those voices and opinions echo in the head and heart of a woman who has an unplanned c-section? If all you ever hear is how awful and abnormal c-sections are, or how _violent_ they are, and then you end up having one, don't you think all of those attitudes of those surrounding you could even _slightly_ contribute to the depression, rage, and grief?

I love natural childbirth. I love it when it works. But sometimes, it _doesn't_, and as an advocate for _women_, I think that all women should be able to embrace their child's birth and not be made to feel that they are somehow less because they had a c/s or vacuum assist or epidural or whatever.

My son's birth was an emergency. I imagine it looked pretty "violent," but to me it wasn't. LOTS of time is dedicated here on this board to helping women heal after having a c-section or a less than ideal birth. LOTS. But hardly anyone recognizes the fact that for lots of women, having a c-section was neither violent nor a tragedy, and that we (who feel that way) resent hearing about how awful our child's method of delivery was. Our feelings aren't validated, because a c-section is taboo. How dare we have a _good_ experience? And if we state that we did have a good experience, well then, we just aren't "NFL material."

Wow, you said it perfectly, thank you!


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

I have gotten many pms from people who are afriad to post on this thread









They are afraid of being slammed for not being happy with their cs. This used to be the one place where you could be sad about it and not get a "you should be haaaaapppy you selfish git!"

I dont know...i am sorry this has incited so much infighting and has gone way off track. I know my own part was posting prematurely when my own fear and panic stopped me from giving more info. Apparently you all dont study up on me (i dont know why not i am very cool!) and know my whole life history.

I am sad it got devalued into an arguement about who has it worse.

I know a few moms who are fine with their cs and so so so many more who arent. WE feel what we feel.


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## MaryJaneLouise (Jul 26, 2005)

Kind of OT, but I thank the OP for posting that link. I had a c-section, and the only regret I had was that my epidural/spinal didn't work, and I had to be given Versed/morphine for pain control. So I wasn't "there" for my babies birth -- I just remember waking up later and poof, there were 2 babies







So this gave me an idea of what I missed. Thank you, it really wasn't as bad as what I imagined it would be


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

This thread has been reopened. However, please remember the UA when posting...especially the name calling, sarcasm, and snarkiness. I understand that when we discuss birth it can be a charged topic with value beliefs of all sorts. And when you have feelings of loss of any kind it is even harder to see and speak clearly. Please, be gentle with each other. We have all had loss of one kind and another. We can never imagine what it is to truly walk in another's shoes and experience their pains.


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