# Why Decide on Getting an Epidural BEFORE Labor?



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

I totally understand why women would want the option of an epidural. But I just honestly can't understand why women would _definitely_ chose to have it well in advance of labor (for the 1st baby that is - so they've never experienced any labor.)

I have to think that for this to be the case, women truly believe:
1. The epidural is *risk-free* (or, the risks are like one-in-a-million, so they aren't worth worrying about)
2. Birth is always horribly painful
3. There is _no benefit_ to actually _feeling_ the birth of your child (i.e. birth is just plain painful & there's just *no value in feeling any of it*.)

Wouldn't you have to believe those things in order to decide in advance of labor, with certainty, that you want the epidural? or am I way off base?

I just find that sad because, as we know here, none of that is even remotely true. I just wish women would at least _be open-minded_ to experiencing something so amazing. But to decide in advance to close down the possibility, well, I can't help but feel that that is just sad.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Because you don't get a medal for doing it natural.
Because the drugs are absolutely harmless, my doc said so.
Because I don't want to be a martyr.
Because it might hurt a little.
Because it's the way it's done.
Because my doc said it's the way it's done.
Because every movie shows the needle in the spine so it must be okay.
Because no one will know I did it naturally so why go through that?
Because the book I read (WTEWYE) said it's the way it's done.
Because my best friend, sister, cousin, and every woman on my mainstream birth board had one and loved it.
Because I don't mind being paralyzed from the waist down and having a catheter and not being able to walk and having to stay for three days.
Because only hippies go natural.

Should I go on?









I don't know why. Before the sperm ever hit the egg for my first, I knew I would never even take a Tylenol in labor. Was never an option for me. Hopefully some day epidurals will be the exception, not the rule.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

How's about: because I know how I deal with pain and I don't want to deal with the pain of labor, which is - from all accounts - going to be worse than any pain I have yet encountered.

This was not my reason - I didn't get one - but I would not presume to judge someone who did think this way. Given that labor was, both times, the worst pain I have endured in my life.


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## francie024 (Oct 23, 2007)

I often wonder too. Pitocin and Epi greatly increase your risk of needing a c-section. In some hospitals, the section rate is nearing 50%!!!! I guess some women don't care or believe their doctors BLINDLY. It's like the blind leading the blind.

And then there is all the "big baby" fear which docs are great at. "We have to induce you NOW! Your baby is getting too big!" And it's common knowledge that pitocin contractions are hard and spasmodic. So they want the epi in advance.

Why not just let the baby come on it's own and avoid the c-section?? A few hours of pain is better than a risky surgery and long recovery.

I've had so many friends wind up with a section. I only know 2 fellow mamas who didn't have one. Sad.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Because they don't know that with that pain comes something so mind-blowingly cool that they choose to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

I think in trying to not upset fellow mamas on the joys of natural birth, we keep the secret that with great pain come great triumph. However, I am not saying that getting an epi is a bad thing, I have heard of births where I think it is awesome that choice is available!

But, to say you can somehow avoid pain in childbirth is the biggest fallacy there is. The baby is coming out somehow and you will feel that it is happening or that it has happened.


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

because they are scared.

the only reason i can think of why they would choose it BEFORE they go into labor.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Because I don't mind being paralyzed from the waist down and having a catheter and not being able to walk and having to stay for three days.

It's funny. When my sister go the epi, she told me it was "awesome". DS1 was 2 then, and I'd only had one c-section...no natural birth, but 20+ hours of labour. I was looking at her, lying in bed, and unable to move her lower body, and I felt _freaked_. I honestly can't imagine signing up for voluntary paralysis. I hate getting a spinal for _surgery_. Just reading what you wrote here gave me the chills. Yuck.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
Because they don't know that with that pain comes something so mind-blowingly cool that they choose to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

I really can't agree with this. I didn't have an epidural. And yes, my birth contained mind-blowing coolness. That mind-blowing moment occurred the minute the baby was out of my body, as soon as I realized _it was over and I had done it_. Prior to that, labor was a horribly painful, exhausting, seemingly neverending ordeal. No sparkles and unicorns for this mama.

So I have to question the assumption that women who get epidurals somehow cheat themselves out of that fabulous moment when you see your baby and realize that you have given birth. We all have that moment, epidural or not. I think it's awfully demeaning to assert that women who get the epi experience none of the exhilaration anyone else does when a child is born.


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

Have you looked around at how society portrays birth?

That should answer your question.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I really can't agree with this. I didn't have an epidural. And yes, my birth contained mind-blowing coolness. That mind-blowing moment occurred the minute the baby was out of my body, as soon as I realized _it was over and I had done it_. Prior to that, labor was a horribly painful, exhausting, seemingly neverending ordeal. No sparkles and unicorns for this mama.

So I have to question the assumption that women who get epidurals somehow cheat themselves out of that fabulous moment when you see your baby and realize that you have given birth. We all have that moment, epidural or not. I think it's awfully demeaning to assert that women who get the epi experience none of the exhilaration anyone else does when a child is born.

No, it isn't demeaning at all. They get the cool moment of meeting their baby! And in the end, that is the best moment of all.

But, you take away the pain, you take away the endorphins, ergo you take away the "rush". It is science, not just conjecture. The fact is they don't get the rush, but they do lose the pain. You can't get both. And sometimes, sadly, in your case you just got one (the pain).

However, I do know that it isn't strangely uncommon that the rush just doesn't get there for whatever reason, and that's ok too.

But I would like most women to know that in the majority of births that aren't impeded they will get that. And it is awesome!

Also, I like telling women that there is a 15% epidural failure rate (um, me) and that PLEASE be prepared for natural anyway!

And, with the pain (that I wasn't enjoying) I was suprised by my little meditations with the universe in labor land, and then decided there was something to natural labor after all. And then the more I researched, the more I figured it was pretty cool indeed!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
How's about: because I know how I deal with pain and I don't want to deal with the pain of labor, which is - from all accounts - going to be worse than any pain I have yet encountered.

This was not my reason - I didn't get one - but I would not presume to judge someone who did think this way. Given that labor was, both times, the worst pain I have endured in my life.









:

Also because of a sexual trauma (or other trauma) which would make feeling things in that area unbearable mentally/emotionally.

Honestly natural birth isn't always this amazing rewarding experience for everyone. Some women aren't willing to risk that. Some women are well aware of their boundaries. Though I may never have had a bone placed I know it's going to hurt. It's not rocket science with birth really. You got one side saying it is the worse pain ever and another saying it is the most amazing experience and the pain is nothing. Well you know not always and that goes for both sides. Realistically birth hurts. Looking at the process itself it would be pretty darn ridiculous to think it wouldn't even just a little without some hardcore mental prep to aid you and even then there is no guarantee.

Why do women choose to get epis before they even experience labor? For a variety of reasons none of which are our concern.

Quote:

Because I don't mind being paralyzed from the waist down and having a catheter and not being able to walk and having to stay for three days.
I had an epidural with my first. Couldn't stand it because I couldn't feel anything. But stay there for 3 days?







I didn't and every friend I have had who has was out the next day as well.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
No, it isn't demeaning at all. They get the cool moment of meeting their baby! And in the end, that is the best moment of all.

But, you take away the pain, you take away the endorphins, ergo you take away the "rush". It is science, not just conjecture. The fact is they don't get the rush, but they do lose the pain. You can't get both. And sometimes, sadly, in your case you just got one (the pain).

However, I do know that it isn't strangely uncommon that the rush just doesn't get there for whatever reason, and that's ok too.

My last birth I had no rush. It was completely natural and left me with PTSD. The rush is also no guarantee when you have the pain and frankly that rush after that long labor would not have been worth what I endured or what it meant for my baby and I afterward. Even in getting the rush natural birth can leave a woman beaten emotionally and mentally let alone physically. The rush is little consolation when that happens.

This is the reality of birth- it can be amazing and it can be traumatic and everything in between. I think if we are really sincere about birth education we need to prepare women for both and be open with them about their options in both scenarios and not guilt them when they find themselves with the less ideal.

Quote:

Also, I like telling women that there is a 15% epidural failure rate (um, me) and that PLEASE be prepared for natural anyway!
I completely agree and have said the same thing myself with my friends who choose the epidural. Be prepared in birth always.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
My last birth I had no rush. It was completely natural and left me with PTSD. The rush is also no guarantee when you have the pain and frankly that rush after that long labor would not have been worth what I endured or what it meant for my baby and I afterward. Even in getting the rush natural birth can leave a woman beaten emotionally and mentally let alone physically. The rush is little consolation when that happens.

This is the reality of birth- it can be amazing and it can be traumatic. I think if we are really sincere about birth education we need to prepare women for both and be open with them about their options in both scenarios and not guilt them when they find themselves with the less ideal.

I completely agree and have said the same thing myself with my friends who choose the epidural. Be prepared in birth always.

As I said, there are births that I have heard that make me glad that an epidural is a choice available. If birth is very traumatic, we should use the resources available to lesson it (if possible) and an epidural may be high on the list of resources.

But, while the rush isn't THE REASON to have a natural birth, it is a great bonus that shocked me (as I said, my first was unintentionally natural) and shouldn't be as discounted as it often is.

It should be embraced (but warned that it may not happen) as should the reality that birth is such a crap shoot there is no planning for the unplannable.

However, there are two camps. The women that want a natural birth and like non-mainstream boards and research and then expect a high (because they heard about how cool it was) and then the mainstream moms who expect the epidural upon admission and know nothing of any high at all and had no idea it existed.

Just an observation with the last paragraph...

Maybe what is better is to plan but expect nothing.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

The concensus from women who want the epidural before labor is that they don't like pain. Honestly, I've planned two home births (Ava was a transfer but still natural) and I can get where they are coming from. Some people just don't like pain. There is a lot of the "my doctor wouldn't give me anything dangerous" mentality too though.


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## momtoluke (Feb 14, 2009)

Hmmm, I don't think it's sad that a woman would choose well before she's had a baby to have an epidural. It's her choice to make and maybe your assertion is correct in that all women do not value the journey that is childbirth. So what?

The only thing I think is important when it comes to childbirth is the choice (if we're lucky, since really it is out of our control) to birth how you want. If the choices are there, then who cares how another woman chooses to birth her child? I think The Business of Being Born did a lot to bring Natural/Homebirth into the mainstream...opening up people's minds about birth. For some, maybe they never considered anything other than hospital/epi births b/c that appears to be the norm, that's all they know. I had *never* even heard of homebirth as it exists today until after the birth of my son. All the while I was pregnant with him I had a lackadaisical approach to childbirth. I didn't care one way or other. I knew I didn't want a section, but I thought I'll get the epi if/when I want it and if not, that will be fine too. Epidural/hospital birth was all I knew. Of course, with such an approach to birth, I got an epidural and I don't regret it at all. I was completely exhausted after birth...pushing 3 hours. I can say I didn't have the "high" that I hear natural birthing mamas talk about b/c I was just seriously spent.

Ironically, my DH seemed to be more in touch with childbirth and it's magnitude during my pregnancy that I was. He would say, "Yes. I think you can do it w/o an epidural. It's a rite of passage to birth a baby. Women have been doing it for thousands of years." Etc. etc. Of course, that was just talk b/c it wasn't until after the birth of our DS that I began actually looking into natural birth. It was definitely eye opening!! I do want to add that I had a pleasant, non-traumatic birth at a hospital, although it was very different than what I thought it would be. I just had no idea that unless you say otherwise, you're pretty much pushed through the assembly line for a factory birth. Undress, gown, IV, bed, period. The End. I was seriously undereducated about that aspect. Seriously...even shows like "The Baby Story" led me to believe my nurses would have me walking the halls, sitting on a ball, essentially catering to me and my needs as a woman in labor. Yeah, not so much. Hence the reason I am happy I had the epidural b/c I could not deal with the pain stuck in a bed.

Anyhoo, I said all that to say that unless you have some experience in which you learn otherwise, honestly I think many women don't even consider birth w/o epidural b/c they really don't know about the alternative. I mean, it's not like most OB's actually take it upon themselves to talk to you and educate you about your choices. For me, while it was just fine, the birth of my son was that experience that made me look into a different way to birth. I had envisioned something different, but the epi was not the deciding factor for me to deem my birth successful.

Okay, that was some crazy rambling!


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is hospital policy or financial planning... some smaller hospitals don't have 24/7 anesthesia support (and request that women include a yes/no response to whether or not they want an epidural during the pre-registration paperwork) and some insurance companies do not cover routine epidurals so that expense needs to be pre-planned as well (especially if a care provider requires payment in full/a specific payment amount prior to the birth).

(and because I know the question that always comes up in regards to small hospitals... there is an on-call anesthesiologist for emergencies and a life-flight helecopter for people who need more than our local hospitals can provide. A delay in emergency medical service/lack of "high tech" medical care is just one trade off for choosing to live in a certain region.)


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

Before my first baby, I planned on having an epidural.

I wanted to labor as long as I could without it, but I wanted an epidural before I actually gave birth. Why? Because I've seen lots of births, and the idea of stitches in an un-numbed bottom is HORRENDOUS to me. I have seen many, many women describe the worst part of their labor/birth experience as the stitches afterwards. And, I know that, even with a 4th degree tear, most practitioners and anesthesiologists are reluctant to give an epidural just for repair.

I knew I was going to have a big baby (and I was right--he weighed 11 lb, 14 oz), and I figured there would be stitches.

Weird, but there you go.

As it turns out, I got an epidural for pain relief 17 hours into my 36 hour labor. It stopped working, I had it replaced, #2 stopped working, we pulled it out, I labored med-free for a while, and then, when it was looking like a c-section was inevitable, I had epidural #3 placed. I did have a c-section. And, I'm okay with all my epidurals. The pain was bad. Really bad. Even with the epidural I screamed like someone that labors high on crack. I'm not the best girl to deal with pain.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I think the "because I'm scared" sums it up pretty well, and the OP's list breaks it down pretty well.

I had a natural (home) birth because 1) I believe there are benefits to retaining feeling and 2) I'm one of those people who don't seem to process most drugs very well, and they make me feel very strange and sick and out of control.

On the other hand - I have a crunchy holistic dentist, and he always asks if I want novocaine before he drills my cavities (some of his patients apparently decline). And my reaction is exactly like many women's when considering birth: "of course, are you crazy??" I do not believe there is any benefit to retaining feeling, I am scared of the pain, and I believe the drug is safe for me (unlike most drugs, novacaine seems fine to me, though my dentist only uses 1/3 of the usual amount for me and it numbs me up 100%).

So, while I made a different choice for birthing, I can definitely see why some women just don't even want to give it a second thought and just choose the "comfortable and safe" option.


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## littlebb (Apr 15, 2009)

I pretty much agree with all the above comments. But I also think it is just a societal standard. There was a time when epidurals weren't so commonplace (long, long time ago) and women had other avenues to mentally prepare for a natural, drug-free birth to cope with pain and endurance. That is obviously not the case very often anymore. Women are built up from their first baby on to believe that the pain of childbirth is just so horrible that it's the end of the world. Get a gaggle of women together who've had kids and all of them (at least in my experience) will tell you the horror stories of how horrible their labor pain was before they got their epidural. After hearing story after story like that and mentally dragging you down, who wouldn't assume they'd have to have an epidural?

Even from women who've never had their own children, I have gotten the weirdest, most extreme statements. Several of my old co-workers, in response to learning I'm planning a drug-free homebirth, told me, "You'll never be able to do it without an epidural - do you know how much it's going to hurt?" Of course I know it's going to hurt, but because I've had wonderful midwives who have one, taught me to have full trust in myself and my baby and two, given me so many tools to deal with pain and discomfort during labor, I know that I'll be able to weather the storm. This is not the type of mindset one receives in a typical OB or hospital setting. Being surrounded by other homebirthers with the same mindset and some who have given birth naturally without drugs has done wonders for my confidence and excitement over our impending birth.

I knew long before I was PG that I would want a fully nature, drug-free birth. I studied the birth process and I'm convinced there is pain for a reason. And that it goes beyond 'rite of passage'. Pain sets of different types of hormones in the labor process that physiologically encourage other things to happen (stronger contractions to further advance the baby, etc.). When you take away the pain and interfer, the natural birthing process is interrupted, hence the climbing number of c-sections. I live in Atlanta and all of our hospitals have an outrageous number of c-sections. The one hospital dubbed 'the baby factory' because it is the birthing capitol of the southeast has a c-section rate of 49%.

And it absolutely drives me crazy when someone has the nerve to say, "You know you don't get a medal for doing it naturally". I mean, really, do any of us choose to do it because we think we'll get a pat on the back? And it kills me that it's other women that typically say that instead of offering something encouraging from one woman to another.


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## mom-to-jj (Sep 8, 2008)

MegBoz said:


> I totally understand why women would want the option of an epidural. But I just honestly can't understand why women would _definitely_ chose to have it well in advance of labor (for the 1st baby that is - so they've never experienced any labor.)
> 
> Because your mother told you while you were pregnant that every year on your oldest sibling's birthday, she thinks, "This is the anniversary of the worst day of my life," and she said she wanted to die when he was being born. Because you don't want those kinds of memories when you think about your own child's birth.
> 
> ...


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## bullfrog (Feb 19, 2003)

Or how about this reason:

You've researched and weighed your options and you are making the best informed decision for yourself.

Not everything people do that we don't agree with is because they are misinformed or downright dumb.


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## Baby_Vol (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:

Because every friend you know IRL (i.e. not on MDC) who experienced both natural and epi births said they would always choose the epi in the future. Because even the ones whose labors went too fast for the epi said they wished they'd asked for it in time.
I don't think I know you IRL, but I've had both and I would choose my natural birth every time.

Quote:

How's about: because I know how I deal with pain and I don't want to deal with the pain of labor, which is - from all accounts - *going to be worse than any pain I have yet encountered.*
This is the part I don't understand at all. They don't know this. They don't know that their birth will even be painful. Mine was not (at least, my natural birth was not, but my epi birth was). Everyone's experience is so different. It may be the most painful experience of your life, but it also may not be ...it could actually be enjoyable. You just don't know until you have BTDT.

The sexual/emotional abuse, I can understand. I do understand that there are reasons people do the things they do ...so I'm not saying all cases.

However, to get one when you simply assume it will be painful bothers me. Your birth may not be painful at all. Epi can lead to so many other complications too. Why not wait and see what your labor is like before deciding?


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## Baby_Vol (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:

Not everything people do that we don't agree with is because they are misinformed or downright dumb.
Did someone say that here?

The OP was just asking the question about something she, personally, doesn't understand the reasoning behind.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby_Vol* 
However, to get one when you simply assume it will be painful bothers me. Your birth may not be painful at all. Epi can lead to so many other complications too. Why not wait and see what your labor is like before deciding?

But the thing is they do experience labor. Everyone has to at one point because you can't just walk in and demand an epidural not being in labor. So really they are waiting and seeing because they can't have a pre-labor epidural.

ETA- if we can ask the above question than we can ask why NOT decide to have one if you don't know how it is going to be? Often times you hear because you just know it is what your body is meant for, the complications of the epidural, etc etc but really the same can be said for choosing to have one- because you know you won't be able to handle the pain, because emotionally/mentally you know that being in that situation could cause long-term issues, and on and on. Really first time moms don't know period either choosing outright to have one or not. It's a double standard to only question those going into it wanting the epidural when not wanting one can be viewed the same.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I think people have many reasons. Some I agree with, some I don't, but I think it's very important to recognize that what constitutes an empowering, satisfying birth experience for one woman can be a horrendous trauma to another. This goes both ways - I would avoid a c-section except to save the life of the baby, but my friend who had 5 kids including an unmedicated vaginal twin birth (which would have made me feel like Superwoman) said her c-section under general anesthesia was her favorite birth of all...

Some very good reasons to choose an epidural in advance, in my opinion, include:
- a history of sexual abuse or trauma. Unmedicated birth can be a very deep experience, and it can unleash body memory and emotion that a woman might not want to revisit.
- Not wanting to have the birth in an altered state of consciousness. Some women see birth as a rite of passage, and they want to be in that other endorphin-rush head space. Some women want to be able to carry on a normal conversation with their husbands and enjoy the birth a little bit more as what I might call a "spectator-participant". One level of remove from the birth so that they can experience it with a partner might be preferable to 'going natural', especially if they are fond of being in control and know that a natural birth will wig them out and they will get in the way of their own labor process.
- Having had a prior natural childbirth that was so long, painful, and hard to deal with that you are afraid to do it again. Again, if the fear will get in the way of your ability to relax and let your body do its work, and if you know you are that scared, it's going to make your birth more satisfying and less traumatic to get the anesthesia and let your body do its work.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
I have seen many, many women describe the worst part of their labor/birth experience as the stitches afterwards. And, I know that, even with a 4th degree tear, most practitioners and anesthesiologists are reluctant to give an epidural just for repair.

Don't they usually give a local anesthetic for the stitches? I know they did for me. Why would they sew it up without any anesthetic? That's weird.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
No, it isn't demeaning at all.

But the way moms who choose an epidural are often described here at MDC is most certainly demeaning.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bullfrog* 
Or how about this reason:

You've researched and weighed your options and you are making the best informed decision for yourself.

Not everything people do that we don't agree with is because they are misinformed or downright dumb.

But you can't "research" how labor will feel. You just can't. You can't know in advance how painful it will be for you. It could totally be manageable! You just can't know in advance.

So... people who decide in advance they absolutely, definitely will have the epi *MUST* be "assuming" that it will be too painful to handle. In that case, I actually would call them "misinformed" because sometimes labor is not painful _at all!_ (Yes, it seems rare, but it IS possible.) So to say with certainty, "My labor will be too painful to me to endure." _is_ sorta misinformed.

ALthough, as others have said, I totally understand about abuse survivors - that is indeed something I hadn't thought of. KCparker also makes an excellent point about wanting to be present mentally & able to hold conversations. That's another point I hadn't thought of.
(Although, personally, I was what I'd describe as mentally "lucid" - clear enough to make small talk between ctrx, remember nurses names, etc.)


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
But you can't "research" how labor will feel. You just can't. You can't know in advance how painful it will be for you. It could totally be manageable! You just can't know in advance.

So... people who decide in advance they absolutely, definitely will have the epi *MUST* be "assuming" that it will be too painful to handle. In that case, I actually would call them "misinformed" because sometimes labor is not painful _at all!_ (Yes, it seems rare, but it IS possible.) So to say with certainty, "My labor will be too painful to me to endure." _is_ sorta misinformed.

Again then the same can be said for those who chose NOT to get the epidural. In both cases mama is misinformed and making assumptions based on something she has no experience in.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoluke* 
Hmmm, I don't think it's sad that a woman would choose well before she's had a baby to have an epidural. It's her choice to make and maybe your assertion is correct in that all women do not value the journey that is childbirth. So what?

Good question.. yes, so what? why do I care & why do I say it's "sad"?

Well, first, How can you decide you "do not value the journey that is childbirth" before you've even been there? I dont' get it. Growing up, my Mom always told me, "Don't knock it until you've tried it."







ALthough, I totally understand about abuse survivors - that _is_ a reason I hadn't thought of.

But, the biggest thing is that, going back to my list in the OP:
1. It's simply not true that epidurals are risk free.
2. It's simply not true that birth is always horribly awfully painful. I know I'm not the only Mama who says, "Yeah, it was painful, but the majority was just cramps- it was only really bad in transition for about 90 minutes & even then I could cope, had a break between ctrx, etc."
3. There _is value in *feeling* childbirth!_ As others said- it's basic physiology about the feedback mechanisms, the high, etc.

So it makes me sad that people believe falsehoods.
(Yes, I know many women are fully informed when deciding on the epi in advance, but it seems more common that many believe those above 3 falsehoods.)

The other thing is that: I feel like epidurals are a "gateway" to fully medicalized childbirth - which too often is damaging to both Mama & baby. It just seems that too often it leads to a whole cascade of interventions that are damaging all around & that's sad.

The advanced, automatic, pre-labor desire of an epi for me is also *demonstrative of the whole sick cultural perception of birth* --> it's horrific, awful & dangerous & we need to place ourselves in the hands of Docs to take care of it, the way we would place ourselves in a docs' hands when we need surgery.

That's another part of why I care... I feel like if people question the epidural. they may start to question all the other medical 'management' of birth... which needs to start happening more frequently so we can get evidenced based care!








I.e. taking the viewpoint that: "Hey, maybe the pain level _can_ be manageable & if it stays at a "Manageable" level, I'll forgo the epi since it _does_ have risks"

But opting for an epi means you relinquish some control of your birth experience - and handing over full control to your HCPs in America today... well... let's just say







: (Of course, the epi itself isn't to blame here or anything, I'm just sayin' - it's the atrocious whole state of maternity care in America that I care about.)


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
But the way moms who choose an epidural are often described here at MDC is most certainly demeaning.

Yup and we really must stop that if we want to return birth to women. We need to be supportive of WOMEN regardless.


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## Veronika01 (Apr 16, 2007)

I think it's sad that women who do choose epidurals are judged so harshly. Not everyone is misinformed or ignorant. I walked into my OB appointment with my first baby and had all hopes of having the birth I wanted and researched for the year it took me to conceive dashed. My only requirement was that I wanted a female care provider and they were all booked to the point that my OB was the only one with an opening for months. She dashed my hopes of walking during labor (If you want to walk around with your tail hanging out for all the other fathers to see, that's up to you), of using a birth pool (didn't have one at the hospital), of using the shower (it's for everyone, not just for you), of going meds free (I've given birth before, you haven't. Take the epidural and do it my way). I left in tears. Back then I was a lot less assertive than I am now and though I'm still passive aggressive, I don't get bullied so easily these days.







My OB didn't tell me there was ANY risks involved in taking an epidural and to this day claims that the back pain I had for MONTHS is not at all related to the epidural. No, I didn't go back and research further after being completely devistated. All it means is that my caregiver had ONE way of doing things and she wasn't prepared to compromise it for any of her patients.







:


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Again then the same can be said for those who chose NOT to get the epidural. In both cases mama is misinformed and making assumptions based on something she has no experience in.

I don't know, I don't quite see it this way. There are so many reasons NOT to get the epidural. Aside from medical issues, personally, I was HORRIFIED at the idea of not being in control of my own body & I thought that would haunt & traumatize me.

*However, I do see the value in being flexible... i.e. planning for & preparing for NCB, but considering medical intervention if a problem arises* (i.e. worse-than-normal pain due to malpositioned baby (so no break in the pain between ctrx) or prolonged labor where Mama gets exhausted, etc.

*But*...aren't those things unusual? So what's wrong with planning NCB if things stay within the realm of "normal" & when labor deviates from normal, _then_ you reevaluate & look to medical intervention (including epidural?)

Besides, as others have said, you can't get an epi immediately & they do fail (I'd never heard they fail as often as 15% of the time! Wow!) So everyone should be "prepared" for NCB anyway, right?

I don't see how planning to go natural is the same as planning an epi for first-time-Moms since they haven't BTDT.
Besides, there's an interesting issue called a "Self-fulfilling prophecy." We all know if you are anxious & fearful about birth, that can make the pain worse. (Of course, that's *not* to say the opposite is true - that the pain will be manageable if you have a good outlook.) But if you've already decided the pain will be more than you can handle (i.e. you've already decided on an epi in advance), well, then it's pretty likely you're going to not be too happy with the whole experience...

*I mean, how often is ANY experience pleasant if you expect it to be awful?*


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
*But*...aren't those things unusual? So what's wrong with planning NCB if things stay within the realm of "normal" & when labor deviates from normal, _then_ you reevaluate & look to medical intervention (including epidural?)

Unusual? Not so much. This idea of "normal birth" gets to me because it is so subjective and it suggests that if there are complications or less than ideal circumstances then it is not normal when in fact it very well is. Childbirth is painful. That is the normal usual truth. Some women can handle it some can't. Childbirth can be risky in several ways (mentally, emotional, physically). That is the normal usual truth. Some women handle the risk factors differently.

Quote:

Besides, as others have said, you can't get an epi immediately & they do fail (I'd never heard they fail as often as 15% of the time! Wow!) So everyone should be "prepared" for NCB anyway, right?
As everyone should be prepared and open to intervention and pain management. So where is the harm in talking about it? Seems only logical and yet when you do bring it up in NB circles you are shot down.

Quote:

I don't see how planning to go natural is the same as planning an epi for first-time-Moms since they haven't BTDT.
How so exactly? If you are going off of it making no sense to plan for the epidural from hearsay and fear then the same goes for planning a NB. Why wouldn't it? I planned my NB before having children because I was afraid of the risks of the epidural and I had heard you couldn't feel your body and that scared me. I did have an epi with my first and I disliked it greatly so went natural with my next 2. But I went in to labor as "misinformed" (as you put it) as a mama wanting the epidural having had no experience with birth. I was making assumptions as much as the epi moms.

Quote:

Besides, there's an interesting issue called a "Self-fulfilling prophecy." We all know if you are anxious & fearful about birth, that can make the pain worse. (Of course, that's *not* to say the opposite is true - that the pain will be manageable if you have a good outlook.) But if you've already decided the pain will be more than you can handle (i.e. you've already decided on an epi in advance), well, then it's pretty likely you're going to not be too happy with the whole experience...

*I mean, how often is ANY experience pleasant if you expect it to be awful?*
This is what I cannot stand about this line of thought- it suggests that then the opposite is true and if you just think happy thoughts and expect everything to be peachy it will be. Oh how untrue! There have also been moms who expected it to be awful and had great natural births. But going back to those of us who didn't expect it to be awful and it was and who were thinking it is normal and natural and we can do it no matter what and it turned out we needed intervention this myth is not helpful- it's the opposite. Birth isn't always as simple as happy thoughts and visualizations. And yes it is demeaning to mothers who have gone through some pretty horrible experiences to have to hear this from the NB community.

There is just so much myth surrounding birth and it doesn't end at the medicalized version. *Natural birth advocates are just as guilty of perpetuating myths, taking choice from women and shaming them*. I just wish we could see that because the NB community has such a prime opportunity to make these things right and return birth to women. That is what we should be doing- focusing on the human aspect and not holding our ideals above that. Ideals are not always possible. Let's acknowledge that and work with it.

First things first- let's admit that those who make different conscious choices than natural intervention-free birth are not only free to do so but also fully capable of doing so educated and empowered.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

My opinion is that you don't NEED to experience something to know that you don't want to. When I have a cavity drilled, I choose to have pain relief administered before they start. I have never experienced natural cavity drilling, so how do I know that it is painful? Maybe it is manageable. Maybe I don't need to have my mouth numbed first. But call me crazy, I take the drugs every time, before I even feel a tiny tap with the drill.

Besides, with the epidural, I don't know anyone who was able to walk in the hospital before they had a single labor pain and get an epi placed right away and then just wait for contractions to begin. Everyone I know had to go through a certain amount of natural labor pains & dilation before they reached a point where they could have the epidural administered. So although they may have had a very good idea ahead of time that they would want pain relief, it isn't until they are actually living the experience that they make the final decision.

How do we know how we will want ANYTHING in life before we have experienced it? We all make choices about what we want to do or not do based on our research, our past experiences, the experiences of our family and friends, and our personal opinions. Sometimes our choices turn out to be the right things for us, and sometimes they don't.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
My opinion is that you don't NEED to experience something to know that you don't want to. When I have a cavity drilled, I choose to have pain relief administered before they start. I have never experienced natural cavity drilling, so how do I know that it is painful? Maybe it is manageable. Maybe I don't need to have my mouth numbed first. But call me crazy, I take the drugs every time, before I even feel a tiny tap with the drill.

Besides, with the epidural, I don't know anyone who was able to walk in the hospital before they had a single labor pain and get an epi placed right away and then just wait for contractions to begin. Everyone I know had to go through a certain amount of natural labor pains & dilation before they reached a point where they could have the epidural administered. So although they may have had a very good idea ahead of time that they would want pain relief, it isn't until they are actually living the experience that they make the final decision.

How do we know how we will want ANYTHING in life before we have experienced it? We all make choices about what we want to do or not do based on our research, our past experiences, the experiences of our family and friends, and our personal opinions. Sometimes our choices turn out to be the right things for us, and sometimes they don't.









:


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I think women decide on getting an epidural before ever laboring for similar reasons that others decide on natural/no drugs, HBing, or UCing. I think perhaps they have looked at things and just have an idea of what they want their birth to go like and plan for it.

Perhaps they may not have been correctly informed of the risks, but then again, they may have and just choose that option after careful consideration.

I may not agree, but I will not support a woman's choice to birthe how she wants to.


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## tndixiemom (Jul 16, 2007)

I decided before my births that I wanted the epi. When I am in pain, I get angry and miserable. I did not want my labor to be like that. With my first, I got the epi and it was perfect. After 20 hours in labor, I went from 4 to 10 in less than 4 hours and pushed for around 15 minutes if that. I didn't feel the pain and felt the pressure to push. It was my perfect birth(aside from the induction because of pre-e).

With my second, I went into labor on my own. My contractions were three minutes apart when we went to the hospital the first time. I was only dialated to three so thay monitored me for two hours. My OB then gave me the option to stay and just see how things went or go home. We went home were I labored for the next three days. After that I went to my OB and they admitted me. I got started on pit. I thought I was dying. It was literally a blinding pain. I was shaking violently from it. I finally got my epi and it didn't take. I could still move and everything. I went from 6 (when I got the epi)to 10 in less than 10 minutes and ended up pushing for maybe 4 minutes. It was horrible. I couldn't focus. I was lost. It was not one little bit like my first birth.

I would take my first birth over the second any day of the week. The second just left me feeling empty and cheated out of a great birth experience. I know for a lot of the women here it would be the complete opposite, but this is how I felt. We plan of two or three more kids. I still would like to get an epi, but I will make sure I do a lot more studying and prep for a natural birth.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Childbirth is painful. That is the normal usual truth. Some women can handle it some can't. ...
If you are going off of it making no sense to plan for the epidural from hearsay and fear then the same goes for planning a NB. Why wouldn't it?

Well, as you say "some women can handle it" - so why would you assume you can _not_ handle it until you've experienced it? That's all I've been asking - if you look at the title of the thread, "Why _decide_ on getting an epidural before labor?"

I see your point though that it's wrong for a Mama wanting an-NB to be close-minded as well & 100% closed off to the idea of an epidural. But the fact of the matter is, I think it's important to expect that you can handle the pain. Go into it with the viewpoint that you are strong enough - have no fear. Ya know? (But, stay open-minded.)

Just like an athlete has to go into a match visualizing that they will win. Visualize success, while being realistic & acknowledging that it's no guaratee. (*I'm not saying* getting the epi is "not succeeding" or "failing" I'm just saying you have to have a positive outlook when you embark on somethign challenging & difficult-- it's just an analogy.)

Quote:

This is what I cannot stand about this line of thought- it suggests that then the opposite is true and if you just think happy thoughts and expect everything to be peachy it will be. Oh how untrue!
I totally, completely, 100% disagree with you there. It is NOT the same. It is true to say, "If you expect birth to be horrifically painful, it probably will be." that does not necessarily mean that it is also therefore true to say, "If you expect birth to not hurt, then it won't."

We have _some degree of control there_ - but only some. For example, likewise, if we do optimal fetal positioning, that _can help_ baby to get into the right position, but doesn't guaratee it. (AND - just because a baby IS in a bad position, that also doesn't mean Mama is to blame because she didn't do her optimal positioning work.)

Quote:

*Natural birth advocates are just as guilty of perpetuating myths, taking choice from women and shaming them*.
I personally haven't experienced this, & I spent time on other natural-minded boards other than MDC. I've also done a good bit of reading, taken Bradley classes, & seen the movies "BoBB" & "Orgasmic Birth." I haven't come across this. But I'm sure there _are_ such individuals out there. & I agree - that is wrong & helps no-one. Extremism of any kind is bad.

But, once again, I return to the acutal title of the thread --> "Why decide on the epi before labor?" Why not keep an open mind?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tndixiemom* 
I got started on pit.

<snip>

I would take my first birth over the second any day of the week. The second just left me feeling empty and cheated out of a great birth experience. I know for a lot of the women here it would be the complete opposite, but this is how I felt.

I've seen and heard many women who feel cheated of a great birth experience after having pit. Every woman I've ever talked to who has laboured with and without pit says the pain with pit is _much_ worse than without. I have no personal experience with it, but that seems to be a near universal experience.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

My first birth, I thought I knew what to expect, thought I could manage it, and was wrong. Back labor causing such tension that it impeded progress to the point that labor was stalled for several hours despite the coping mechanisms and methods I had learned both here and through books recommended here was not something I had anticipated. The decision to accept an epidural in that case remains in my opinion the very best decision I made during the entire course of my pregnancy.

Fast forward to some personal life traumas and an unexpected second pregnancy. No, I don't know that labor would have gone the way of the first time. But I knew I'd get the epi. There was at that point in my life absolutely no possible way that a drawn-out, painful labor would not have been traumatic. Emotionally it was not a risk I could afford. And anyone who is bothered by my taking care of _myself_ in that respect -- anyone bothered by my unwillingness to wait until it may have been too late -- really needs to learn to stop worrying so much about what other people do. In the end, my choices were best for me ... and ordinarily, frankly, would be none of your collective business.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:

However, I do see the value in being flexible... i.e. planning for & preparing for NCB, but considering medical intervention if a problem arises (i.e. worse-than-normal pain due to malpositioned baby (so no break in the pain between ctrx) or prolonged labor where Mama gets exhausted, etc.

But...aren't those things unusual? So what's wrong with planning NCB if things stay within the realm of "normal" & when labor deviates from normal, then you reevaluate & look to medical intervention (including epidural?)
The pain of a "normal" labor exceeds what a great many women are capable of calling "manageable".
I've done it, but only because my first birth was an pit augmented epidural failure, and that's a unique kind of hell that I couldn't tolerate even a small chance of repeating.

The NCB was "normal", but the pain was not "manageable". It was just less hellacious than the epi failure birth. (like, I wished to be dead with birth #1, but I only wished to be unconscious during birth #2.)

SOME women find the pain of labor manageable, and some don't.

THAT is the truth.


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## tndixiemom (Jul 16, 2007)

I should have put that I had pit with the first birth, but did not have anywhere near the pain. I also had Stadol with the first and not the second.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
My opinion is that you don't NEED to experience something to know that you don't want to. When I have a cavity drilled, I choose to have pain relief administered before they start. I have never experienced natural cavity drilling, so how do I know that it is painful?

Hmm, good point. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

& I feel the same way - I asked for the drugs when I've had cavities filled, & wisdom teeth & tonsils removed. Because there's no inherent joy in having your teeth drilled. It's not natural, it's not healthy. Whereas birth is a perfectly normal & healthy physiologically process designed by millions of years of evolution (and/or designed by a diety, whatever you believe.)

*I can't invision natural teeth-drilling being pleasant. I can imagine birth being a great experience (and it was for me.)*

But, yes, it seems pain_-free_ births are very rare, so I guess I can understand wanting to opt out of the pain (instead of taking a "wait & see" attitude to see if the pain will be manageable.

So, thanks, that was enlightening for me. I was hoping I'd see some new perspectives from this thread & I'm glad I have.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:

Well, as you say "some women can handle it" - so why would you assume you can not handle it until you've experienced it?
Some people dislike excruciating pain so much that they'd rather not even attempt to "handle it".

Plus, when you're in transition, when it's at it's worst, it's often considered "too late" to get an epi. So you have to get it before it gets as bad as it will get.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
"Why _decide_ on getting an epidural before labor?"

For the same reasons someone decides not to before birth which are multiple but come down to knowing oneself and trusting oneself- yes trusting what you know to be true for yourself which can be that you can do it without the epidural and can also be that you would prefer it and neither is wrong or less than.

It isn't that great of a mystery. Birth is a powerful experience and a fiercely individual and personal one that cannot be fully comprehended by those not actually doing the birthing. I love that quote about the secret not being that birth is painful but that women are strong. So true- epidural or not.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay* 
Some people dislike excruciating pain so much that they'd rather not even attempt to "handle it".

Plus, when you're in transition, when it's at it's worst, it's often considered "too late" to get an epi. So you have to get it before it gets as bad as it will get.

Yes.

The idea that women who naturally birth know their bodies so well is prominent here. Well I argue that women who know they will need assistance are simply exercising that same knowledge of their body and themselves.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
My opinion is that you don't NEED to experience something to know that you don't want to. When I have a cavity drilled, I choose to have pain relief administered before they start. I have never experienced natural cavity drilling, so how do I know that it is painful? Maybe it is manageable. Maybe I don't need to have my mouth numbed first. But call me crazy, I take the drugs every time, before I even feel a tiny tap with the drill.

I actually find it kind of funny (to me personally) that you used this example. I had the drugs for every filling until I was about 12. Then, I needed a filling, and the freezing didn't take. I made a new appointment. When I came back, the tooth had started to hurt...and the freezing, once again, didn't take. I decided to try the filling without the freezing, rather than come back again and again while coping with a chronic toothache. The funny part? I've never had a filling with freezing again, because the brief (excruciating, but brief) pain of the drill is much, much less unpleasant than the numbness of the freezing. I never found out until I had to - I just assumed that the pain was intolerable and I needed the freezing.

So, it doesn't apply to everyone, of course...but your example was just funny to me, personally.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoluke* 
Hmmm, I don't think it's sad that a woman would choose well before she's had a baby to have an epidural. It's her choice to make and maybe your assertion is correct in that all women do not value the journey that is childbirth. So what?

The only thing I think is important when it comes to childbirth is the choice (if we're lucky, since really it is out of our control) to birth how you want. If the choices are there, then who cares how another woman chooses to birth her child?

Why it makes me sad is because it is NOT a choice if it is not informed. And that is where we are at now...


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27* 
Why it makes me sad is because it is NOT a choice if it is not informed. And that is where we are at now...

I don't understand this. What do you mean it is where we are at now?


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay* 
Some people dislike excruciating pain so much that they'd rather not even attempt to "handle it".

Plus, when you're in transition, when it's at it's worst, it's often considered "too late" to get an epi. So you have to get it before it gets as bad as it will get.

Well, I don't think I'd classify the pain as "excruciating" for me personally. But I know it often does reach that level.

EXCELLENT point about getting it before it reaches the unbearable stage (& it's too late & you're stuck in agony.) That's another point I hadn't quite thought of, so thanks for posting.

So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

getting an epidural ?
or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"
What would you tell your little sister & best friends to do?
Seriously, I'm just curious. I see where you're coming from on these points here.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Do you advocate: 
getting an epidural ?






I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that expressing an advocacy position in favor of epidurals in a general way is not permitted on MDC.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Well, I don't think I'd classify the pain as "excruciating" for me personally. But I know it often does reach that level.

EXCELLENT point about getting it before it reaches the unbearable stage (& it's too late & you're stuck in agony.) That's another point I hadn't quite thought of, so thanks for posting.

So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

getting an epidural ?
or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"
What would you tell your little sister & best friends to do?
Seriously, I'm just curious. I see where you're coming from on these points here.

Great questions!

I generally say educate yourself on the process of birth and standard birth practice and then make up your own mind but always be open to both pain management and a natural birth as some times things don't go according to plan.

Ultimately though whatever they decide I fully support them as mothers and women.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

getting an epidural ?
or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"

I don't tend to advocate much of anything, because people think I'm just a nutcase, anyway. However, I'd probably advocate the second, if anything. I remember my sister, after telling me how awesome her epi was, suffering from _horrible_ back pain for almost a week after she had her son. She doesn't like epis that much, anymore.

However, I know labour is worse for a lot of women than it is for me, so I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should do, yk?


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## Epona (Jul 20, 2009)

It always makes me sad.

I'm not opposed to epidurals in the least. I'm very glad tat they are there.

But I find it so sad when women just don't even want to try. They just want the baby. Well, this is where babies come from.

I'm grateful for epidurals. I think a woman should be able to have relief when it is necessary to her. But the way I hear some women going on about them, it just makes me sad. I wish they would at least give it a go.

And each one is so different. I've had two extremely painful births, an induction and a posterior. And I've had two very "easy" births. They can all vary so much. And you won't know unless you try.

I'm very happy that I had natural births. I would certainly like other women to try it out, _before_ they reach for the relief. It can be really good You know?

Oh well. It's not my place to tell anyone what to do with their body.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Well, I don't think I'd classify the pain as "excruciating" for me personally. But I know it often does reach that level.

EXCELLENT point about getting it before it reaches the unbearable stage (& it's too late & you're stuck in agony.) That's another point I hadn't quite thought of, so thanks for posting.

So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

getting an epidural ?
or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"
What would you tell your little sister & best friends to do?
Seriously, I'm just curious. I see where you're coming from on these points here.

I tell them everything I know about it and don't try to persuade them in any direction.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
However, I know labour is worse for a lot of women than it is for me, so I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should do, yk?

I think this is what it comes down to for me as well which is why I don't say to do one or the other just be prepared. No woman's birth will be the same as another's. Really we can't say to the woman sitting next to us no matter how well we know her that she will need to do or should do this or that.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 

*I can't invision natural teeth-drilling being pleasant. I can imagine birth being a great experience (and it was for me.)*


I'm with you on this one which is why I decided on a med-free homebirth with both of my children. Based on my experiences, my research, my opinions, and myself as a person, I could imagine birth being a great experience. And IMO that is exactly the same process a woman who chooses an epidural beforehand uses. Just like I can't envision natural teeth-drilling manageable (which, as Storm Bride mentions in a later post, might actually be!) some women can't imagine labor pain being a great experience, and that is totally their decision to make based on _exactly_ the same things that make me think that I CAN go med-free.

FWIW, I ended up with one epidural and one successful homebirth. I am pregnant for a third time and based on my two experiences I may choose an epidural this time.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:

So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

getting an epidural ?
or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"
What would you tell your little sister & best friends to do?
Seriously, I'm just curious. I see where you're coming from on these points here.
I advocate going into birth with an open mind whether you believe you want an epidural OR whether you believe you want a NCB. That is what I would tell anyone to do, sister, best friend, stranger walking down the street. As a first time mom I had this huge idea in my head about epidurals and I planned a glorious homebirth where the pain was super manageable because I was in my own environment and doing what nature designed. When I ended up transferring to the hospital and getting an epidural I *really* beat myself up. I shouldn't have done that to myself. Instead of walking into labor with a huge attitude about epidurals and interventions, I should have kept an open mind and been more educated on the concept of being flexible and choosing what was best for me based on my actual experience at the time and not some rosy fantasy that I had about homebirth.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

I'm going to admit that I have basically skipped to the end of this thread, so if what I'm about to say has been said already... well please forgive me.

I don't quite understand why someone would decide BEFORE labor to get the epidural. Mainly because until you're in the moment how can you truly know how you'll react? But then let's flip that around as well... how can you decide BEFORE labor that you positively will NOT get the epidural. Again, you don't truly know how you'll react to labor until you're IN labor.

I used to be 100% completely against epidurals. My first DD was born in a birth center completely natural after 7 hours of labor. And I don't handle pain well. So if I could do it, then so could everybody else? Ya know?

DD#2 was born at home after 21 hours of posterior labor. It was truly horrendous. Several times I wanted to just die. But again, if I could do it, then so could everybody else, right?

Then along came DD#3. Born unassisted at home after 75 hours of posterior labor. She is now over 4 months old and I have been too scared to even have sex again because god forbid something happen and I get pregnant again. I could never go through that again. So guess what? NOW I understand why some women choose epidurals. Birth frackin' hurts. It's not all sunshine and polkadots and rainbows with unicorns tiptoeing through a dewy meadow. It's pain and screaming, and sometimes plain torture. Sure the end result is great and all... but I truly believe I would have bonded faster with DD#3 if I hadn't been feeling like I'd been beaten with a baseball bat and then run over with a truck repeatedly.

So yeah... I don't understand why women decide BEFORE labor, but I sure as heck can understand why they decide IN labor. And I think it does women everywhere a huge disservice to make them feel inferior for wanting an epidural.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
Just like I can't envision natural teeth-drilling manageable (which, as Storm Bride mentions in a later post, might actually be!)

In fairness, I have to add that I seem to have an unusually strong aversion to numbness. I honestly considered requesting no anesthetic for a _c-section_, because of how much I hate spinals. I didn't, because I 1) knew the pain would be so intense it would likely cause flashbacks later, 2) figured that I was likely to move from pain, increasing my chances of complications, and 3) knew there was _no_ way they'd agree, and I'd probably be pestered by mental health professionals, afterwards. This does not mean I'm under any illusions about how painful surgery without anesthetic would be. It's just that I really, really, really loathe and despise numbness. (I hated having a root canal, solely because the "no freezing" option didn't exist.)

So, considering my possibly skewed feelings about numbness vs. pain, I certainly wouldn't recommend that anybody base their pain management decisions on _my_ experiences...whether we're talking L&D, OR or the dentist's office.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

So, considering my possibly skewed feelings about numbness vs. pain, I certainly wouldn't recommend that anybody base their pain management decisions on _my_ experiences...whether we're talking L&D, OR or the dentist's office.


LOL yeah... no offense or anything, but I totally plan on sticking with the drugs when I have my teeth drilled!!







But just goes to show that things that a lot of us think could NOT be manageable EVER (like med-free dental work) other people out there feel differently about... same with labor IMO...


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I was pretty sure I wanted an epidural for my first birth. I was terrified. I didn't know as much as I know now, and I of course watched all those scary baby shows that make labor look like this dangerous, traumatic, scary event. In actual labor, I had a posterior baby and every possible thing working against me. It really was a traumatic birth, despite the epidural.

For #2, I wanted a natural birth. I was going to try for one (in the hospital, I could not afford a midwife and was not comfortable having a UC), but when I decided to be induced, I decided I would probably have an epidural. I didn't want to do a pit labor with no pain medicine. Maybe that makes me a big weenie, but imo it already wasn't a natural birth. That ship had sailed. If I had it to do again, I would invest in some emergency bipolar meds so I could have waited it out. But we're always wiser in hind sight.

Ultimately, there is no way you can know how labor will effect you. I know many women who had a natural birth all planned out, and s*** hit the fan at some point, and some of them truly needed the epidural for emotional (or sometimes medical) reasons. Abuse survivors, for example, often have major emotional reactions to labor.

The kind of thinking of being SURE you're going to do everything perfectly and that everything will go perfectly well is right up there with the "you manifest all your problems" thinking, and those that "fail" feel unnecessary guilt. It would be really nice if it really were true that as long as you think positive everything will be rainbows and roses and sunshine, but that's not reality.

Birth is unpredictable, and comes with no guarantees. While I do wish that our society taught women about the power of birth, and empowered women more instead of sending them to sterile hospitals to be poked and prodded through their labors; I also think that you can go too far with natural birth advocacy. I see it all the time, and it makes me really sad.

Why not just inform all women as to what their choices are, and let it be if they choose to have an epidural? Not all of us are cut from the same cloth. I agree that epidurals come with a lot of risks --I've spoken out about them myself -- but I think that painting all women who choose them in a negative light is really doing all of us a disservice.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Well, first, How can you decide you "do not value the journey that is childbirth" before you've even been there?


I absolutely valued the journey of childbirth, my journey just happened to include an epidural. It is these kinds of statements that really offend me - who is anyone else to decide what I value and what I don't based on my educated decision to have an epidural during birth.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Honestly, when it comes to birth choices, I don't care what women choose so long as they have ALL of the relevant information on hand-good, bad, and ugly-to make that choice.

I share the OP's concern that when it comes to epidurals, women are simply not getting that information from their obstetricians.

Here is what ACOG has to say about epidurals in their "patient education" pamphlet. Note that there's no mention of what the American Pregnancy Association is at least willing to tell you:

•slower labors (therefore Pitocin, "assisted delivery," and other interventions in the long cascade)
•the lack of feeling while pushing
•the lack of freedom of movement to deliver the baby in any position other than lying down
•inability for many women to walk up to a few hours after the birth
•breastfeeding difficulties

These factors won't make every woman change her mind, but they certainly did for me! I've chosen NCB because I wanted to avoid all of this, not because I'm some stereotypical hippy out for the quintessential Mother Earth experience. (Hear that, ILs?







) Regardless, every childbearing woman should have a right to ALL of the information.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
But the way moms who choose an epidural are often described here at MDC is most certainly demeaning.

And yet on the flipside, it's demeaning when my own choice for NCB is dismissed as me "trying to be a martyr." I think that women in general should avoid turning the epi v. natural issue into one more fruitless Mommy War.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
And yet on the flipside, it's demeaning when my own choice for NCB is dismissed as me "trying to be a martyr." I think that women in general should avoid turning the epi v. natural issue into one more fruitless Mommy War.

Yes it shouldn't become a Mommy War thing. Both sides deserve as much understanding and support.However TC brings up something that needs to be remedied- on MDC and within a lot of NB communities women are treated poorly for choosing an epidural. It is far more prominent here than being called a martyr for NBing.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I absolutely valued the journey of childbirth, my journey just happened to include an epidural. It is these kinds of statements that really offend me - who is anyone else to decide what I value and what I don't based on my educated decision to have an epidural during birth.

Yes. And this is what breaks my heart- that anything other than a NB is considered less-than and not truly experiencing childbirth, etc.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I know true love.* 
I always makes me sad.

I'm not opposed to epidurals in the least. I'm very glad tat they are there.

But I find it so sad when women just don't even want to try. They just want the baby. Well, this is where babies come from.

I'm grateful for epidurals. I think a woman should be able to have relief when it is necessary to her. But the way I hear some women going on about them, it just makes me sad. I wish they would at least give it a go.

And each one is so different. I've had two extremely painful births, an induction and a posterior. And I've had two very "easy" births. They can all vary so much. And you won't know unless you try.

I'm very happy that I had natural births. I would certainly like other women to try it out, _before_ they reach for the relief. It can be really good You know?

Oh well. It's not my job to tell anyone what to do with their body.


Why does what I choose to do with my body and how I choose to birth make you sad? I don't get it. I didn't care about the birth experience. At all. I wanted to have babies. If I could have had someone else gestate and birth them for me, I would have. What's wrong with not being invested in having a certain birth experience?

Just for the record, I had one with an epi and one without, and they were both pretty unpleasant experiences that I would prefer not to repeat.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I know true love.* 
I always makes me sad.

I'm not opposed to epidurals in the least. I'm very glad tat they are there.

But I find it so sad when women just don't even want to try. They just want the baby. Well, this is where babies come from.

I'm grateful for epidurals. I think a woman should be able to have relief when it is necessary to her. But the way I hear some women going on about them, it just makes me sad. I wish they would at least give it a go.

And each one is so different. I've had two extremely painful births, an induction and a posterior. And I've had two very "easy" births. They can all vary so much. And you won't know unless you try.

I'm very happy that I had natural births. I would certainly like other women to try it out, _before_ they reach for the relief. It can be really good You know?

Oh well. It's not my job to tell anyone what to do with their body.

The majority of hospitals require a laboring mom to have dilated to 4 centimeters before an epidural is an option so its not as if moms are regularly arriving on the labor and delivery floor and receiving an epidural at the first hint of a contracting meaning that she will experience labor. Regardless, why does it matter how long a mom labors before she receives pain relief? With my 2nd daughter I arrived at the hospital already 8 centimeters and to the point that the pain was beyond tolerable for me ~ it was more important to me that I was clear headed and able to concentrate and an epidural made that possible.

For what its worth I have had several fillings done without novocaine because of my intense fear of needles ~ birth for me pushed me beyond the point that I could no longer function with the pain.


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## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I absolutely valued the journey of childbirth, my journey just happened to include an epidural. It is these kinds of statements that really offend me - who is anyone else to decide what I value and what I don't based on my educated decision to have an epidural during birth.

Thank you! I completely agree.
The attitude that one type of birth is better and more special than another is one more thing that keeps the mommy wars going.







:


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I absolutely valued the journey of childbirth, my journey just happened to include an epidural. It is these kinds of statements that really offend me - who is anyone else to decide what I value and what I don't based on my educated decision to have an epidural during birth.

Please don't quote me out of context. *I did not say that choosing in advance of labor to get an epidurla = "not valuing the journey of childbirth."* That was not me. I was simply asking a question of someone else who used those words. See post 15.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I ended up with an epi with my first, it was an induction. I decided to never have another epi ever again, however, I was always flexible on this because I simply don't know how labour might go.

My first was intensely painful, I tried for a a few hours without and epidural but it was too much, I got the epi, it worked for a while and then stopped and the pain was horrendous, I have never felt anything like it, EVER.

I got my homebirth with my second child, it hurt sooooooooooooo bad, the midwives were traumatised, I thought it was a wonderful birth but I hadn't ever counted on my feelings during the birth due to previous sexual abuse. As the baby crowned, I started having flash backs and it was pretty horrific, that was the worst part really................ Really, the flashbacks were about previous sexual abuse and my previous birth in which I was left feeling violated by the Ob (I know some Obs etc don't believe this is possible still, but this is how I felt and just because the Ob might not have meant it, does not stop me feeling this way. Personally, I would like to have him lieing on a bed, unable to move from the epi but at the point where you can feel stuff, and then I would like to shove stuff up his bum without consent).

Anyway, despite knowing the potential pain of childbirth, knowing the feelings that crop up for me due to previous abuse, I opted for another drug free homebirth with my third and that went fantastically.

I understand why women may want to opt for an epidural, I understand the fear, maybe better than a lot of people, however, I also totally believe in giving things a go. You don't know how its going to go so why not see how you feel during the birth.

I think a lot of it is simply down to the whole negative attitude towards pain in childbirth etc. I mean, it is going to hurt and really, who likes pain? Even with the sexual abuse thing, it doesn't automatically mean that it is going to be traumatic for you. If people keep telling you that its going to be incredibly painful or that because you have been abused it is going to be even more traumatic for you then chances are, that is how you will find it.

To be honest, for me, yes the baby crowning gave me flash backs BUT nothing was as bad for me with regards to my previous sexual abuse as being paralysed from the waist down and being at the mercy of some guy Obstetrician who decided he didn't like me because I refused an episiotomy and then I had to put up with him down there, ignoring my requests for extra pain relief as he stitched me in an incredibly rough manner, gave me a suppository without warning or consent and so hard it actually pushed me up the bed. So for me, my opinion on sexual abuse and birth is if you want to reduce the trauma, natural I would think, would be the better way to go because an epidural only increases the amount of fiddling and focus on that area of your body, it can make you feel so vulnerable as well.

Totally not against epidurals for those that want them but why not give it a go without first, you might just either be surprised or you might just surprise yourself.


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

I just don't see why it matters to YOU OP what another mother to be chooses to do.

You choose what you makes you happy, let them choose what makes them happy.

If I snarked on your choice to say birth at home, you'd want me to shut up. If I decide to have an epidural before birthing and you keep snarking at me, I'd want you to shut up.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I think if you took a survey of mothers, even here on MDC and asked them if childbirth was painful, you'd likely hear from most of them (I'm thinking of upwards of 90%) that it was. A few will have had painless childbirth, some might have even had orgasmic childbirth. But for the vast majority of women, there will be some level of pain.

Many women will say that they had pain that was manageable, but I'll echo a previous poster that said that some women feel that there is no amount of pain that is manageable or desirable for them when they have the option of an epidural.

I'll also agree that I've felt the vibe that medicated childbirth is "less than" unmedicated, and that women who experience a great deal of pain somehow just had too much fear or negative energy and brought it on themselves.

I had terrible guilt for many years over my choice to have an epidural with my first birth. Her birth was actually a pretty pleasant experience. Quick, no complications, no tearing, she roomed in with me and we went home right away. Still the guilt was so strong that I wanted to do everything "right" the second time around. It was supposed to be my "do over" birth. Well it pretty much went to hell in a hand basket when I caught a virus and was vomiting and contracting every 3 minutes at 32 weeks pregnant, and 4 days and many, many complications later I had no problem at all asking for an epidural for her birth.

I think it stinks that women who want to be more natural types of mothers can be given attitude and made to feel crappy over a choice that lasts for a few hours and can keep them from feeling a significant amount of pain. I honestly think women should be able to birth however they want to, whatever makes them the happiest.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Regardless, why does it matter how long a mom labors before she receives pain relief? .

I think this brings into play the "stalling labor" problem. If there were no risks or side effects from epis, I don't think there would be as much of an issue.

I have know mom after mom who got to the hosp and was in very very early labor and they say "Do you want to go home or have this baby?" They usually opt to stay, get pit, want the epi, etc.

I have had 1 birth without, and 2 with. Both epis were late in the game. I probably didn't need that last one but oh well, things went fine for me.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I think that NCB advocates are doing a huge disservice to women if all they say is "don't get the epidural!" I haven't seen even one mention in this thread of other pain relief techniques. Women get the epidural because labor HURTS, so if you want to help women avoid the epi-->pit-->failure to progress-->c-section cascade, IMHO, you should be out there advocating other pain relief methods instead of just telling women to "go natural." And no, I don't just mean breathing and massage. I mean nitrous oxide (used in the UK, I think?), cold-water spinal injection for pain block (if I'm remembering the details right), etc.

The pain is real. It deserves respect. Epidurals are not the ONLY option.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

:

And I think another disservice is that the NCB community often talks about the cascade of interventions, epidural side effects, difficulty breastfeeding and bonding, and failed pain relief as if these things happen all or most of the time with epis.

If a woman then talks to her friends IRL and many of them did not have these experiences, or if she herself doesn't have them, then it really seems like everyone has been feeding her a line of bull.

Of all of the above problems (with my first, since my second was not a normal birth), the only one I had was some minor difficulty breastfeeding, which we quite likely would have had anyway being that my daughter was 36 weeks and very small, sleepy, and jaundiced.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bits and bobs* 
I just don't see why it matters to YOU OP what another mother to be chooses to do.

You choose what you makes you happy, let them choose what makes them happy.

If I snarked on your choice to say birth at home, you'd want me to shut up. If I decide to have an epidural before birthing and you keep snarking at me, I'd want you to shut up.

This is a discussion forum and I'm simply trying to have a _"discussion."_ I'm curious & would like to know why other people make the decisions they do, so I'm asking.
Asking, "So why did you do that?" is not "snarking at you."

Yes, what others choose doesn't impact my life. But I'm curious so I'm asking for them to share their point of view - and if you've read my replies, I HAVE been enlightened & I've thanked those posters for sharing info/views/thoughts that were new to me.

If you don't care to share & express your point of view, that's cool too. I think the same could be said for every thread on everything... share your opinion, experience, outlook, or don't.


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## Bassgirl (Oct 17, 2006)

With my DS I asked for an epidural after 2 days of back labor. I now think some of my reaction to the pain was because of prior abuse (physical/emotional, not sexual). He was posterior and though I pushed for some time I had a C-section which I think was warranted (though had I not had the epi perhaps I could have avoided it.)

The euphoria I experienced at his birth despite the circumstances was utterly astounding. This time I am planning a homebirth and have done more preparation but I do not feel the epidural robbed me of my birthing experience. It saved me, in fact. Had I continued without it I probably would have ended up wtih PTSD.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
. Women get the epidural because labor HURTS, so if you want to help women avoid the epi-->pit-->failure to progress-->c-section cascade, IMHO, you should be out there advocating other pain relief methods instead of just telling women to "go natural." And no, I don't just mean breathing and massage. I mean nitrous oxide (used in the UK, I think?), cold-water spinal injection for pain block (if I'm remembering the details right), etc. The pain is real. It deserves respect. Epidurals are not the ONLY option.

Oh, but if those other options were out there, we'd have threads just like this about _them_. Because injecting cold water in your spine? Inhaling nitrous? Not natural, doncha know.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I decided to get an epi after watching my sister's NCB in a FSBC. It was truly frightening to me as a NMY.

FF to me actually getting pg. I kept an open mind. I was kinda anti-epi. I typically handle pain pretty well. Then at about 36 weeks I had a contaction, just one, that woke me up out of a dead sleep with it's intensity. It scared me how much it hurt. I began to rethink my epi plans. If that's how labor was going to be, no way I wanted to do THAT repeatedly.

As it turned out, I did get one after many many sleepless hours and begging for someone to kill me to stop the mind numbing pain.

#2 I labored for a while with pit, thought "screw this *&%$!" and got an epi. She was born 1.5 hours later with 2 pushes. I have no complaints


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
This is a discussion forum and I'm simply trying to have a _"discussion."_ I'm curious & would like to know why other people make the decisions they do, so I'm asking.
Asking, "So why did you do that?" is not "snarking at you."

Yes, what others choose doesn't impact my life. But I'm curious so I'm asking for them to share their point of view - and if you've read my replies, I HAVE been enlightened & I've thanked those posters for sharing info/views/thoughts that were new to me.

If you don't care to share & express your point of view, that's cool too. I think the same could be said for every thread on everything... share your opinion, experience, outlook, or don't.

I think though, that people here or in other NCB communities do get tired of having to defend this choice, and/or the prevailing attitude that if only they were more informed they would have made different (meaning "better") choices.

I know that MDC supports natural childbirth and doesn't promote pain relief. But i think that there are probably many moms out there who breastfeed their children, co-sleep, wear their babies, eat organic and natural foods, and practice gentle discipline, and yet pain is very difficult for them to manage. I would like to see this more widely understood and supported. It doesn't make someone less of a mother if she's not particularly fond of experiencing pain.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
So out of curiosity, derailing my own thread here, for those you making these points - for first-time mamas, Do you advocate:

1. getting an epidural ?
2. or do you advocate "Prepare for NCB (just in case an epi fails & for the time you have to wait anyway), plus wait & see in case you can manage it?"

What would you tell your little sister & best friends to do?
Seriously, I'm just curious. I see where you're coming from on these points here.

I had an unmedicated first birth and am planning a homebirth this time around. But that's what is right for me - not necessarily for my sister or my best friends. I have a dear friend who is totally happy with hospital based midwives, and I respect her self-knowledge and would never try to persuade her to change care providers. I have made my choices knowing that I am the kind of person to whom it doesn't even occur to take a Tylenol when I have a headache, knowing that I feel safer at home than in hospital, and knowing that I have a lot of confidence in my body to birth babies. If you know you are the kind of person who lays on the ground writhing in agony when your period comes, if you have had a stillbirth, if you have had a failed induction with an epidural that didn't take very well and ended in a crash c-section, you might make different birthing and pain management choices.

I would advocate:
1. Know thyself.
2. Educate thyself on thine options.
3. Make an informed choice, knowing the risks and benefits of all the possible choices.
4. Plan for the kind of birth experience you want to have, but educate yourself about options and have contingency plans well thought out ahead of time.

You know, maybe you have plans for no epidural, but after 4 days of prodromal labor and 8 hours of active labor and only 4 cm. dilation, you are so tired that getting an epidural so you can sleep and not get sectioned for maternal exhaustion is a good and sane option. Maybe you plan to get an epidural as soon as you hit 6 cm, but your labor is so fast that you barely make it to the hospital and come in pushing...Maybe you are deathly afraid of needles and decide that it's either no medication or a c-section under general anesthesia. What is right for one woman may be a terrible choice for another one. The most important things are to be educated, to make informed decisions, and to plan for this birth as much a magical, special, momentous event and as little of a traumatic tragedy that you will remember with horror for years afterwards. Nobody else can dictate what will be the 'right' way for you to birth.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Talula Fairie, post #63...


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## ChristSavesAll (Mar 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I totally understand why women would want the option of an epidural. But I just honestly can't understand why women would _definitely_ chose to have it well in advance of labor (for the 1st baby that is - so they've never experienced any labor.)

I have to think that for this to be the case, women truly believe:
1. The epidural is *risk-free* (or, the risks are like one-in-a-million, so they aren't worth worrying about)
2. Birth is always horribly painful
3. There is _no benefit_ to actually _feeling_ the birth of your child (i.e. birth is just plain painful & there's just *no value in feeling any of it*.)

Wouldn't you have to believe those things in order to decide in advance of labor, with certainty, that you want the epidural? or am I way off base?

I just find that sad because, as we know here, none of that is even remotely true. I just wish women would at least _be open-minded_ to experiencing something so amazing. But to decide in advance to close down the possibility, well, I can't help but feel that that is just sad.

Unfortunately this described me to a T when I was 18 and preggo with ds, I've gotten educated since then, thankfully for my children's sake. It is truly sad what we are taught growing up about what to expect from labor. I had envisioned some excrutiating pain, and when I felt my first pitocin induced contraction it was exactly as horrible as I thought... though I had no idea that it was so bad BECAUSE of the pitocin until I UC'd and had #2 at home... Those were totally manageable til pushing began, that's when I wouldn't like some relief from the convulsing moreso than the pain.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

More thoughts here on epidurals and pain relief. As a doula, I have seen women going through pretty horrific pain, pain that makes whatever 'intensity' I felt during my labor seem like ride on It's a Small World in Disneyland by comparison. I can see how a lot of women would opt out of it, and I can see how care providers also feel that an epidural is 'compassionate care'. Really, it is not an illogical decision. One mom of my NCB moms dealt with pain from an OP baby that required counterpressure with every contraction for about 8 hours. When pushing, the baby's skull pressed on a nerve as she descended through mom's pelvis that left mom literally screaming in agony and clutching her thigh with each push until that head was past the nerve. I have seen a mom on pit. make it through labor with no epidural, but in tears and crying for her mommy (who was there and did a great job supporting her daughter) and growling, "I want PAIN. RELIEF. NOW." all the way through her transition (which was thankfully only about 20 minutes) because she'd been going through one on top of the other contractions for three hours already. She used the tub for a good part of labor, and water is great for pain relief, but with the pitocin, she was just _not_ getting a break. These two ladies though were very committed to NOT getting an epidural, and that commitment plus labor support is what got them through their labors. They had decided ahead of time that an epidural was just off the table for them, and they did it, and they were both very triumphant at the end. But if they had been in the "I will try to go natural, but an epi. isn't off the table," they would have gotten one. Granted I am a doula and my clients generally choose unmedicated birth as their preferred route, but the moms I have worked with who have gotten epis. have generally gotten them because of fatigue in a very long, slow labor, and it was a cost-benefit decision where the option was risking maternal exhaustion and a section or get some rest and birth vaginally.

And after seeing some births with epidurals and narcotic pain relief, yes, for sure, it's not "the ideal," but it has been okay. The births have still been very amazing, the moms have all been happy to meet their babies and elated that they gave birth. And granted, my sample size is relatively small, but not a single one of my mama-baby couples has had trouble with breastfeeding or bonding, not the ones who were born with mec. and whisked off to the NICU for monitoring for 3 hours, not the baby who got Narcan to reverse the effects of the Nubain her mom wanted, not the ones born to moms with epidurals. Yes, it's ideal not to have any meds. on board, but having an epidural doesn't automatically ruin the mother-baby relationship forever. If anything, I think having the babies taken from mom right after birth is more traumatic for all involved than when the baby is born with an epidural in place and is given to mom right away. And it is true that having pit., having narcotics, having an epidural, these all up the chances that baby will be born with a depressed affect and will need oxygen or monitoring, but two of my clients who had babies in the NICU had unmedicated births, so no drugs on board is also no guarantee that the doctors won't decide that baby for one reason or another needs to be taken from mom for breathing assistance or monitoring.

As an individual, I have strong preferences about how I birth and firmly held convictions about what is physiologically optimal for mama and baby. But as doula, I advocate only for clients to have safe, satisfying, empowering, wonderful births - as they define them. I do not advocate for any particular way to birth, and attending births has certainly given me a much more open mind about choices that other people make. Birth is profoundly affected by a woman's psychological and emotional state - it's as much in the head as it is in the body. The head is where pain becomes suffering, and it is often the head that throws up more roadblocks to labor progress than anything the body does or doesn't do. We cannot presume to know what is going on in another person's head or body, and we have to trust women to have their priorities straight and to know what will get them through birth in a way that will allow them to have autonomous and satisfactory experiences that leave them psychologically intact enough to be great mamas once their babies are here.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli* 
I..... and yet pain is very difficult for them to manage. *I would like to see this more widely understood and supported*.

_(Emphasis added)_
And trying to *"understand"* is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with this thread.








It's hard to "understand" where someone is coming from if they don't explain & elaborate - so that is why I was asking "why?"

Again, as I've already repeated, I HAVE had my eyes opened from this thread - so thanks yet again to those who have shared their views.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I have to think that for this to be the case, women truly believe:
1. The epidural is *risk-free* (or, the risks are like one-in-a-million, so they aren't worth worrying about)
2. Birth is always horribly painful
3. There is _no benefit_ to actually _feeling_ the birth of your child (i.e. birth is just plain painful & there's just *no value in feeling any of it*.)

Also - no. It seems to me that all you'd need to believe is:
1. Birth MIGHT be horribly painful;
2. The RISK of experiencing that much pain is not worth any possible benefits you might get from going med-free; and
3. The possibility of experiencing that much pain outweighs the risks of getting an epidural.

Btw, I went in with the attitude that I wouldn't get an epidural unless I needed one. I had back labor and I was ready to shoot myself before I was dilated past 0. I labored like that for about 6 hours, I think, before finally getting the epidural, which was wonderful.

They then put me on pit, and then turned the epidural DOWN so I could push, and the pain then became 10x worse than anything I'd ever imagined before, and I pushed for 3 hours before begging for (and getting) a c-section.

The next baby was a scheduled repeat c-section. It was MUCH easier. I'm not totally decided against trying a VBAC in the future (although a VBA2C is probably impossible to get in a hospital here anyway), but I'd do anything to avoid an experience like I had the first time around.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
And granted, my sample size is relatively small, but not a single one of my mama-baby couples has had trouble with breastfeeding or bonding,
<snip>
Yes, it's ideal not to have any meds. on board, but having an epidural doesn't automatically ruin the mother-baby relationship forever.

Well, I personally had what I would call a "picture perfect" natural birth & BFing was a horrific nightmare. DS had NO interest when he first came out (which was unfortunate, since my MW was concerned about some retained membrane & wanted him to BF, but he just wouldn't open his mouth, so she gave me a shot of pit.)
He made up for it after that, but then my nipples cracked & I spent WEEKS in utter & complete agony. I would NEVER, EVER blame a woman for walking away from BFing in my shoes. As a matter of fact, I often thought I was nuts for continuing. It was truly traumatic. (The bad hospital LCs I kept going back to only made it worse.) But I was so stubborn. (Pain subsided around 6 weeks PP & now, at 12 mos, all is well.)

So, I certainly wouldn't be too quick to attribute BFing problems to lack of a natural birth.


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## BarefootScientist (Jul 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
Because I've seen lots of births, and the idea of stitches in an un-numbed bottom is HORRENDOUS to me. I have seen many, many women describe the worst part of their labor/birth experience as the stitches afterwards. And, I know that, even with a 4th degree tear, most practitioners and anesthesiologists are reluctant to give an epidural just for repair.

Um...of course they don't give an epidural for that but...you do know that they give you local anesthetic right?







I mean I felt my stitches, but not pain, just a pulling sensation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
ETA- if we can ask the above question than we can ask why NOT decide to have one if you don't know how it is going to be? Often times you hear because you just know it is what your body is meant for, the complications of the epidural, etc etc but really the same can be said for choosing to have one- because you know you won't be able to handle the pain, because emotionally/mentally you know that being in that situation could cause long-term issues, and on and on. Really first time moms don't know period either choosing outright to have one or not. It's a double standard to only question those going into it wanting the epidural when not wanting one can be viewed the same.

The thing about this though is that, really, having a natural birth is (or should be, IMO) the default. An epidural is an intervention, a change in the way it's done. You don't need a reason to justify why you plan to have no epidural, because that's normal. You should have a reason to have an epidural, because that's not normal. Well, it is, in the US currently, but it shouldn't be.

And note, I'm not saying that anyone needs to justify their reasons to others, or that we should question their reasons to have an epidural (or not to). Just that this argument doesn't fly because having an epidural is an intervention, while NCB is the default.

I hope that made sense...it doesn't seem to be coming out quite right.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I guess I find it hard to see what you don't understand, OP. I don't think most mothers think that epidurals are risk-free, I think they feel that the risks are worth it in terms of the trade off.

In your first post you said to make this decision that women would have to believe that birth is horribly painful. I think in many cases, this is true. Or if not "horribly" painful, at least there is a great deal of pain. People don't like pain and are afraid of experiencing it. Usually, pain is the body's signal that something is wrong: an illness, an injury, etc. Pretty much only in birth (and possibly extreme exercise, like marathon running) is pain not an indicator of something wrong.

If you've gone through 20 something years with this as your experience of pain and combined with talking to many other people who tell you that birth is the most painful thing they have ever experienced, then it may very well make a lot of sense to want to avoid that however possible.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
Um...of course they don't give an epidural for that but...you do know that they give you local anesthetic right?







I mean I felt my stitches, but not pain, just a pulling sensation.

Well, they do give local, but you can only give so much (the tissue will only hold so much volume of lidocaine before the tissue starts to erode, making the repair that much worse, which is a bad circle of events to be in).

And, a 4th degree? Yeah, I've seen it under local. And it isn't pretty. Most of those moms end up with IV pain relief for the repair, as well as local.

Now THAT would be horrid. You've just birthed this fabulous baby, and now they drug you up, and you can't even hold him/her because you're so sleepy. That'd be pretty bad, to me.

But, see? That's why everyone has their different thresholds for what they think is okay. I think that as long as women are able to decide on their own, that we ought to support whatever decisions they come up with.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

The Entonox stuff is crap. It makes me feel ill and in fact, I do get more pain relief from controlled breathing than I do from the Entonox.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
The Entonox stuff is crap. It makes me feel ill and in fact, I do get more pain relief from controlled breathing than I do from the Entonox.

I've had nitrous at the dentist's and it was *awesome*. I'm sure everyone's different in how they react - I'd just like to see women in America get the option for something else before the epidural. I mean, ANYTHING would be an improvement - my options were "do you want nothing or an epi?"


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I had two epidural births and one natural. I had the post birth high all 3 times, but it was severely dampened with the unmedicated one, as a result of being traumatized by the pain. It really, really hurt, and I do not believe the benefits from feeling it outweighed the risks I would have taken in not feeling it. I also was not able to push as effectively with no pain relief at all as I could the first two times, and caused myself extra trauma with a long, puttering pushing stage, so came out less healthy than the epidural births(as did my baby). I do not believe that epidurals are 100% risk free, but I do believe they are safe _enough_, for the good they do in some situations, my first two births in particular. I think more people should try for natural births, but I wish I hadn't, and I certainly don't think people only choose medication because they believe idiotic statements like "100% risk free" or "always painful" or "no value". We are not stupid or gullible, and are certainly not monsters who don't really love our babies. We just disagree.

In my particular case, I decided the first two times to have an epidural because I had had the experience of an unmedicated late term miscarriage, and knew I didn't want to feel that again. But I have to say, knowing the risks of epidural as I do, and being aware that birth generally hurts, I probably would have expected to want one even without having had the previous birth experience. It's never for sure- I know plenty of women who expected to want an epidural, and then found they didn't need it after all- but everybody is different.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
Well, they do give local, but you can only give so much (the tissue will only hold so much volume of lidocaine before the tissue starts to erode, making the repair that much worse, which is a bad circle of events to be in).

And, a 4th degree? Yeah, I've seen it under local. And it isn't pretty. Most of those moms end up with IV pain relief for the repair, as well as local.

Now THAT would be horrid. You've just birthed this fabulous baby, and now they drug you up, and you can't even hold him/her because you're so sleepy. That'd be pretty bad, to me.

But, see? That's why everyone has their different thresholds for what they think is okay. I think that as long as women are able to decide on their own, that we ought to support whatever decisions they come up with.

That sounds like an outlier argument.

I had a severe 3rd degree tear which included repairing my anal area. I got a couple pinches of local and was numb for 24hrs. It was great. Two weeks of being careful not to sneeze/sit on it and I was fine. We dtd at 3 weeks and there was no pain.

What you have heard is probably the disgusting practice of a doctor assuming the woman's epi is still working after birth and going right to stitching w/o asking her. I have read about that several times.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I think babies are probably happier with mothers who aren't traumatized and can focus their emotional energies on caring for them, don't you?

Exactly. NCB can cause irreversible damage to mama and even to baby. Let's not pretend it's not a possibility and for a lot of women a reality.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli* 







:

And I think another disservice is that the NCB community often talks about the cascade of interventions, epidural side effects, difficulty breastfeeding and bonding, and failed pain relief as if these things happen all or most of the time with epis.

If a woman then talks to her friends IRL and many of them did not have these experiences, or if she herself doesn't have them, then it really seems like everyone has been feeding her a line of bull.

I certainly hope you didn't read my post that way! The fact is simply that according to the research, there is an increased risk of these factors. Research can state one thing, but it won't feel real if it doesn't happen to you personally. These risks may be larger for some women than for others. They may affect some women and not others. But that hardly makes the research "a line of bull." Women simply have a right to know about risks and benefits. In the URL that I provided, I think that ACOG paints an insultingly rosy picture of epis when in reality the procedure, _like all other birth choices_, has its trade-offs.

My only birth thus far was natural with an OP baby and 100% back labor. And precisely because of this, _believe me_, I empathize with the woman who wants the epi! It just wasn't an option at my FSBC.

I'm sorry that women who've chosen epis have heard so many hurtful comments. And I'm sorry that we NCB mamas have, as well. Such comments may be somebody's attempt to justify and uphold their own choice, even if it's at another's mama's expense.

To repeat myself--As long as a woman knows all of the risks and benefits of her birth choices, it's frankly none of my business what she chooses.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I do not understand the desire to repeatedly paint moms who choose epidural pain relief for labor as uneducated, uncaring, selfish women who have not a care for their baby's well being and only think about their own comfort.

If someone chooses pain relief for themselves, even knowing (or believing) that said pain relief carries additional risks for their babies, that's not the same thing as not having a care for their baby's well-being. There are a lot of branches on the decision tree.

I knowingly chose a "birth" for Jenna that wasn't the best for me, and that I did _not_ believe was best for her. (I could pretty that up, but it's the truth, so I'm not going to do that.) I still did it. And, I love her with every fiber of my being. I very much regret the way she came into this world - I regret the way _all_ my children came into this world - but I'd still do it again, for other reasons. I did _not_ do what was best for her...and I definitely still have a care for her well-being. I chose practical considerations over my dd's best interests. That doesn't make me selfish or uncaring.

I'm NAKing and sleep deprived and not making much sense. I just don't think that acknowledging that we can make decisions that may not be in the absolute best interests of our babies, _without_ our motivation being selfishness or lack of care is a bad thing. I wholeheartedly reject the medical model that paints the mother (and her uterus) and her baby as enemies. I also reject the black and white idea that making a final birthing decision based on one factor - or more than one factor - means that opposing factors were merely ignored. That's just not the way it is, ime.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
I certainly hope you didn't read my post that way!

No, I wasn't responding to your post in particular. I just see these statements over and over here on MDC and in other NCB circles. I realize that an epidural increases certain risks, I'm not saying that it doesn't. It just seems that if you are to read the forums here you'll be told that those things will almost certainly happen to you.

And, in some cases, that you don't value your baby as much as you value pain relief.







:


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Women choose to get an epidural for many reasons. For some it is an empowering decision, for some it is based on the status quo, for some it is based on fear. But except for very rare exceptions every woman going for a vaginal delivery will feel some labor pains, as unless there are extenuating circumstances you can't get an epidural until you reach 5 cms in most US hospitals, and I'd guess that would be the same in most other countries where epidurals are routinely given.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My mom had a kind of second-gen feminist take on this. When I told her I was going to go for NCB, she said that women used to be forced to endure the pain of childbirth, like it was something men had used to control women. I'd bet there are a lot of people who feel that way.

Anyway, I did NCB both times, but if the pain would have become more than I felt I could handle or had lasted for a really long amount of time, I would have used pain relief, and I would have been fine with it. I value my children, but I also value myself.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

This kind of reminds me of that "What to Expect ..." lady who recommended thinking, before _every bite you take_, "is this the very best food for my baby?" And if it was, say, a doughnut made with processed sugar, you should put it down and not eat even one bite, because it's just for nine months. What kind of terrible mother would you have to be to not make _every bite_ the very best for your baby?


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

OMG, I remember that part of the book! I think I threw it at the wall, lol.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I think there's something to be said about not having impossibly high expectations. It's great to aim for a more natural ideal, but IMO, insisting that you won't budge an inch is just setting yourself up for failure. Everything might go perfectly for a while ... maybe even for years ... but kids have a way of making you rethink your perfect plans.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I think there's something to be said about not having impossibly high expectations. It's great to aim for a more natural ideal, but IMO, insisting that you won't budge an inch is just setting yourself up for failure. Everything might go perfectly for a while ... maybe even for years ... but kids have a way of making you rethink your perfect plans.

YES.

This.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I had natural childbirth for the high. Seriously. I don't get this 'for the baby' stuff. At some point I forgot I even had a baby in there!


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

I had a natural birth with my son. After it was all over, I said "I don't blame any woman for wanting to get an epidural!"

To each her own, ladies! What is right for one may not be right for another.


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
This is a discussion forum and I'm simply trying to have a _"discussion."_ I'm curious & would like to know why other people make the decisions they do, so I'm asking.
Asking, "So why did you do that?" is not "snarking at you."

Yes, what others choose doesn't impact my life. But I'm curious so I'm asking for them to share their point of view - and if you've read my replies, I HAVE been enlightened & I've thanked those posters for sharing info/views/thoughts that were new to me.

If you don't care to share & express your point of view, that's cool too. I think the same could be said for every thread on everything... share your opinion, experience, outlook, or don't.

You might be having a "discussion" but there are some seriously judgmental mammas snarking away here.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

I said that i was going to try to do it naturally, but once i got in there my DH was scared out of his mind, my family and friends where there and all just "hanging out" i didnt want to make them feel uncomfortable, and i was already having to get petocin, i knew it wasn't going to get any better, and i knew if i let it go on longer, i was going to turn into a raging [email protected], and i didnt want that to me the memory of my dd's birth. So i did it.

I do however regret it everyday.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
But, see? That's why everyone has their different thresholds for what they think is okay. I think that as long as women are able to decide on their own, that we ought to support whatever decisions they come up with.

That is a beautiful statement!







:


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot* 
I said that i was going to try to do it naturally, but once i got in there my DH was scared out of his mind, my family and friends where there and all just "hanging out" i didnt want to make them feel uncomfortable, and i was already having to get petocin, i knew it wasn't going to get any better, and i knew if i let it go on longer, i was going to turn into a raging [email protected], and i didnt want that to me the memory of my dd's birth. So i did it.

I do however regret it everyday.


My second birth had a lot of emotional extra stuff attached to it like this and I did have an epi at the end. For about an hour. Looking back, it probably kept me from a c-section. It was all circumstantial but the birth was great, I felt great after and baby nursed like a champ.

Anyone can dissect that birth as "my fault" I had the epi and it totally was but honestly, it was an educated decision at the time, in that EXACT circumstance...I don't feel I can decide that for someone else...

Having said that, I look forward to what will by probably my last birth and have it be as natural as possible. Not in a militant way but it's something I'd want to experience that way.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I don't understand this. What do you mean it is where we are at now?

I guess by "where we are at now" I meant that in this day and age, we as women are not often told the whole story when it comes to modern day birth practices. I didn't mean "we" as in MDC mamas but society in general. I am just remembering how I thought I was informed with my first, even after spending many long hours of research, and then realizing that I was not, ykwim? I bought a whole bunch of bs anyway despite my good intentions







But now if I chose to have an epidural I know it would be for a darn good reason, whereas I know for a fact that was not the case with my first labor.


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## annie2186 (Apr 13, 2009)

********ONLY READ THE FIRST PAGE********

Have any of you seen the movie - I think it is "Baby's Momma" or something. I have never watched it - but just saw the part where the "doula" or something of that nature in a birthing class asked if any of the ladies were going to get an epidural "for their own selfish reasons" and the lady stood up and shouted "here!!!" or something of that nature.

WELL THAT WOULD BE ME!!







:

But in all seriousness - I don't want a natural birth, have never wanted a natural birth and can't imagine ever wanting a natural birth. Since reading these forums I maybe want a natural birth 1%









Am I a baby? Absolutely! Do I respect all of you fearless momma's who birth naturally? Absolutely! Do I want to join you? ummmmm, no.......

My reasons are just my own - I have the idea of what natural childbirth would be, and I don't want it - no matter what kind of rush you get. I get a rush when I have my babies!









My oldest sisters DD1 was totally natural. She watched my other sister in horrendous back labor, about to die, and then get the epidural - and you should have seen the look on her face! Like she was sooo pissed she went through natural birth! LOL

She went on to have I think - 2 epidurals.

Anyway - back to me - I have had two LO. My first ended up being an emergency C/S (didn't have the epidural yet - I had a spinal for the c/s)

My second birth - I went into labor because I was severly deyhadrated due to the 24 hour flu I had caught. Couldn't keep anything down and I dry heaved when I didn't even try to drink anything.

After already being sick for 20 hours I was in the hospital with HORRIBLE contractions which were making me dry heave EVERY SINGLE CONTRACTION! It was probably the worst expierience ever.........I got my epidural - and it was HEAVEN - I went to SLEEP! I finally got some precious much much much needed rest before having to push out my precious baby! If I didn't get that rest - I don't know what would have happened.......

So anyways, to answer the original posters question - not only do some people decide to get an epidural before the actual labor, but some of us (ME) decide on an epidural before even being pregnant!! LOL

If I had to have a birth with no pain medication of COURSE I would handle it (I mean, what choice do I have) same as a bad epidural.

Personally, I don't care if people judge me.............that's their problem, not mine. I don't judge them because they want to do it naturally, or do an unassisted home birth..........if something goes wrong when they have a baby due to their choices, that is on them - same as me with my choices!

Anywhoo - sorry if its a tad rambly - I need some sleep!


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## annie2186 (Apr 13, 2009)

Well, I sorta/kinda read a few more pages, and before I go off and tell my LO's that I don't value their lives........









I just thought I would add that BF for me was easy.....My DD1 was an emergency c/s - milk didn't come in for days, had to nurse until she was crying because she was hungry - feed her a bottle, start the process over in 20 min. I think for the first 5 days she was constantly at the breast...fun times







Then my milk came in and all was good with the world, no more problems!

Second time around was much the same - baby had a slightly high temp when she came out due to my sickness, milk didn't come in for 2 days - now 8 months later still BF exclusively.

I think to paint a picture and say "this happens when you do this", or "this happens when you do that" is an unrealistic thing to do and for some women can make them feel like a failure when it doesn't work like that!

Just my opinion though........what I do works for me - and my kids know I love them, and that is truly all that matters in the end, for each and every one of us


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I had natural childbirth for the high. Seriously. I don't get this 'for the baby' stuff. At some point I forgot I even had a baby in there!










Yeah, I wanted NCB because I found the idea of being paralyzed from the waist down & out of control of my own body to be horrific & traumatizing. I also didn't like the idea of the risks to _me_ of spinal headache, pain at the epidural site, & increased risk of worse tears.

The impact on the baby was barely even on my list of reasons to go natural. The evidence I've seen seems pretty conclusive that the risks to the baby are very very minor.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

It is true tho that there is a lot of misinformation and people DO very frequently choose epidural and hospital birth because they are misinformed. Not that it's not possible to be informed and choose it, but vast majority of the time ppl just have no clue about the options or believe the fear and hype about how bad labour is. That is true.

eta - If someone is choosing natural, guaranteed they are more informed than the average bear. That is reality.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Eh, whatever. It isn't the hill I want to die on.

But, my first was a standard hospital birth, and it went quite well, no complications, and it was a joyous day for my husband and myself.

And, while I understand that there is a ton of negative portrayal of birth all around us, "the fear and hype of how bad labor is" just doesn't cut it for me. For many, many women, labor *is* that bad.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli* 
Eh, whatever. It isn't the hill I want to die on.










Is this a reply to me personally? If so, could you please elaborte? I don't know what you mean here.

As for "how bad labor is" - again, there is a world of difference between talking about how bad the "hospital ride" is (i.e. how birth is medically managed) & how painful labor really is for many women. They are 2 different issues.

I abhor the typical ANTI-evidence-based maternity care practices of most American hospitals & HCPs.
But I don't blame ANY Mama for wanting an epidural. Not in the least.
These are two totally different issues.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 








Is this a reply to me personally? If so, could you please elaborte? I don't know what you mean here.

What I mean is that I don't want to really debate this to death. Clearly there are some people here who will not see eye-to-eye with me on this one. I just try to step in for the mamas who have had epidurals and are feeling shame and guilt because of it. Or who had them and feel fine about it, but read subtle put-downs of their choice here and elsewhere.

It's been 4.5 years since I had a baby, and I'm likely not having any more. Personally, it doesn't really affect me any more. Just trying to give a different perspective. Some of the people here are just so gosh-darn firm in their stances, and have never walked a mile in another person's shoes.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli* 
What I mean is that I don't want to really debate this to death. Clearly there are some people here who will not see eye-to-eye with me on this one. I just try to step in for the mamas who have had epidurals and are feeling shame and guilt because of it. Or who had them and feel fine about it, but read subtle put-downs of their choice here and elsewhere.

It's been 4.5 years since I had a baby, and I'm likely not having any more. Personally, it doesn't really affect me any more. Just trying to give a different perspective. Some of the people here are just so gosh-darn firm in their stances, and have never walked a mile in another person's shoes.









:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli* 
For many, many women, labor *is* that bad.

Yes, but a lot of that has to do with mainstream birthing practices and lack of support. With support and education it wouldn't be that bad. I'm not all flakey-labour-can-be-painfree-if-you-are-groovy-enough, but support, environment and information makes an ENORMOUS difference.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

This thread has been returned, but please... when writing your posts, please keep the following portions of the MDC User Agreement in mind:

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.

Quote:

Do not post or start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.

Quote:

Posts are an integral part of the discussion threads of mothering.com and you may not delete your posts. Though you are free to edit your posts, please contact a moderator or administrator for assistance rather than deleting posts.
and finally

Quote:

Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.
(I included this last quote since I noticed several posts brought up the idea that MDC did not allow discussions of the merits of epidurals. Although Mothering Magazine and the MDC online community certainly encourage women to explore all their options, and hope that women will be empowered to follow a more natural approach to natural events like childbirth, epidural anesthesia is not included in the above list of topics we do not wish to host.)

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns, and thank you for your patience!


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