# QUESTION: WHY IS IT WRONG TO MAKE A CHILD SAY I"M SORRY???



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

This is a serious question. I saw some references by alot of you who were disgusted that the supernanny asked a child to say he was sorry when he was acting ugly toward his mom. ALot of you disagreed with that. Why? I've really been thinking about it ever since everyone was discussing Supernanny a few weeks ago and I can't figure it. Isn't saying you're sorry part of common courtesy?? Don't we want them to say they're sorry?? Please enlighten me...I'm all ears!!







:


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I don't think it's a terrible thing to require a child to say "thank you" and "I'm sorry". But I think that it is not effective to demand a child say it, either. Parents have to decide which is a priorty: hearing "the words" or having the child really understand remorse. It just seems pretty ineffective for a child to recite "I'm sorry" without even understanding what it means to be sorry.

I didn't see the show or read the thread that you mentioned but I'm sure that there are more effective ways of having a child understand empathy and compassion than making them recite words. If a child really is sorry, he'll say it without being prompted.


----------



## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

i've never asked my dds, 5 and 4, to say 'i'm sorry' or 'thank you'....

i've naturally used these words myself when appropriate. they've learned by example.

when they say 'i'm sorry' or 'thank you' it's authentic. i would want nothing less.

forcing a child, or ANY person, to say something is rude and fundamentally ineffective. it only serves the moment's purpose and is counter productive in the long run.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

One problem is that it short-circuits that child's process of figuring out that they have hurt someone and need to make amends. I haven't had to do this yet, because my son has only just turned two. But I would follow this general process:

1. stop the behavior
2. give information about/ask the child to observe the other person
3. ask what they would like to do to fix the situation

3A. If the child isn't in a good place emotionally to observe the other person or try to remedy the situation, try to create an opportunity later for the child to do this.

this is really similar to making the child say sorry, because saying we are sorry is one of the best things we can do when we make a mistake. (And that's a piece of information that children should have, that these polite phrases do work.) but it's not 100% the same because to be effective, the child has to see the results of his actions, and try to be empathetic.

I do intend to compel my child to write thank-you notes, however.


----------



## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, from the other side...

When my kids accidentally bumped an elderly lady in the grocery store, I wanted them to say they were sorry. Automatically, without being reminded. And I didnt' really care if they meant it or not. Just like when the neighbor offers to let them pick berries in his yard, I want them to say thank-you. In fact, I want them to say thanks to me. ANd while it's best that it comes from the heart, I dont' want them to neglect to say it just because they don't care to pick berries or care that the woman got bumped. (My ds rarely cared if he was excited)

Often in public if someone's child is rude to me, or bumps me or forgets to say thanks, I remind them.

And flame away, I LOVE the Supernanny and wish she had been available for my son!


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I think it's OK to ask kids to say they are sorry, but within our family I've found that it's most useful to ask my dd to say she's sorry "when she's ready."

My dh has often demanded instant "I'm sorry"'s and I feel it's counterproductive. It just infames dd's anger and escalates the situation. I've tried very hard to model to him letting her know that we expect her to apologize, but that she can do it in her own time.

Funny thing is that I don't think I've EVER heard dh say he's sorry in his entire life! I don't even expect it from him- nomatter what he does. He gets so defensive if one even suggests he say it. ONE WOULD THINK this would make him more understanding of why not to force dd. Ugh. Maybe his reluctance comes from being forced when young? I dunno.


----------



## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

My dd isn't talking yet...but here is my take on it...

If someone's kid bumps into me or grieves me in some way...and the parents make the child stand there to apologize to me...I really really dislike that. Your kid already bumped into me...don't make me stand there hostage, please. Demanding that your kid apologize will just tick them off and quite possible embarrass them just perpetuating the cycle...imo. Maybe the kid isn't sorry. I would rather have someone apologize or thank me because the felt sorry or because they felt grateful....not because they were forced to... If it comes naturally...great! If it doesn't...work on manners and eventually they'll get it...not to mention if you mind your manners they'll see how civilized people behave...

I would hope that Willow learns by my and dh's examples...we'll see what happens...this is just how I feel...sorry if I offend...I tend to do that.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

It never even occurred to me NOT to get my kids to say it. Obviously, when you hurt someone, you say you are sorry.


----------



## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Oooo..just thought of another question...if you choose not to force your child to apologize or say thank you....Should you do it for them? Model etiquette?


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

When very little, I modeled or did it for them. As big kids, if they forget, I give them the time honored prompt from ages past. A slight cough or if necessary, "Is there something else you needed to say?"


----------



## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

I met a boy at the local park who would push a child down and say sorry right away and then turn around and do it to another kid. This boy had learned it is okay to push if you say sorry. This is one of the downfalls of forcing children to apologize before they understand what it means. I find myself trying to force an apology so the injured party (or better the parent of said child) knows we care and feel ridiculous about it. I am trying to stop this and just model the right thing to do and say instead.

Doreen


----------



## bellee (Feb 26, 2003)

When in my own home, we take it on a case by case basis. if she (33mo)hurts me or dh or her sister, she most cirtainly needs to apoligise. she very well might not be sorry, but i feel i need to bring to her attention, situations where she should be feeling sorry. Of course other factors such as hungary/tired come into play which is why we take it on a case by basis. While in public, I apoligise on her behalf.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

As far as I'm concerned, being able to say "I'm sorry" and "thank you" goes along with understanding that you're not the center of the universe and that you're living in a civilized society. Kind of like being able to stand in a line, take your turn, etc. I lead my little girl by example. I find it EXTREMELY annoying when people let there kids go beserk bumping into people, screaming and running in an inappropriate place, and do nothing to remedy the situation. I don't care if the "I'm sorry" or whatever is heartfelt - you just need to learn how to act with some basic civility, period. And yes, L will be writing "thank you" cards! I think it's lazy and rude for people to not do this simple courtesy.


----------



## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Well, from the other side...

When my kids accidentally bumped an elderly lady in the grocery store, I wanted them to say they were sorry. Automatically, without being reminded. And I didnt' really care if they meant it or not. Just like when the neighbor offers to let them pick berries in his yard, I want them to say thank-you. In fact, I want them to say thanks to me. ANd while it's best that it comes from the heart, I dont' want them to neglect to say it just because they don't care to pick berries or care that the woman got bumped. (My ds rarely cared if he was excited)

Often in public if someone's child is rude to me, or bumps me or forgets to say thanks, I remind them.

And flame away, I LOVE the Supernanny and wish she had been available for my son!

I agree, it is common courtesey to say please, thank you, and I'm sorry. There are times when it is appropriate even when you don't feel like saying it. For instance, it is rude to not say thank you for a gift, even if it is something you really, really don't want (like those ugly items of clothing or those extra plastic toys you don't have room for.) It's the thought that counts. And if you do something that was carless or rude, you should say that your sorry. I think that it is selfish and rude to withhold these phrases just because your really don't feel like saying them.


----------



## ex-stasis (Nov 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think it's OK to ask kids to say they are sorry, but within our family I've found that it's most useful to ask my dd to say she's sorry "when she's ready."

I don't have any children of my own yet (soon!), so I am speaking from my own childhood experiences. My mom would do what mommyofshmoo does--that is, require that I say sorry when I was ready. She would often give me some time alone to think about the situation and regain control of the anger or whatever other emotions I was feeling. I think it's good to let kids know that saying sorry is an expected behaviour, but they need to think about why it is expected and go through the emotional process to get to the point of being able to say it in a genuine way.


----------



## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *willowsmom*
Oooo..just thought of another question...if you choose not to force your child to apologize or say thank you....Should you do it for them? Model etiquette?

Depends on the situation and age of child. For the most part I would not apologize for the child if it was totally their responsibility. I feel that they need to learn to handle their own mistakes and behavior. If I felt that I had some part in the situation, i.e. not watching child closely enough, letting them do something they are not prepared for, or if it was something that I had not yet taught them about yet, I would apologize. Like I said before, it really depends upon the situation.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't see one thing wrong with making a child apalogize. Wether they "get it" or not, it's the right thing to do and they WILL "get it" sooner or later... maybe with practice!







Saying I'm sorry is an importan thing to do.


----------



## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

I have made a huge effort to see that my son understands what saying you're sorry means to the person saying it and the person receiving the appology. I've used intances where he had his feelings hurt as examples of how not to treat others and if you know you've hurt someone else it would make both of you feel better if you would say you are sorry. As for sayig thank you. I've told my son how important it is to say thank you when someone does something nice for him. When we shop for a gift for others, I point out how well we picked out something special for that friend and it came from the heart. And that his friends take the time to do the same. Mostly here, I've set the example myself by genuinely being thankful to my son for anything he does for/to me. During a Superbowl party the other day, my aunt handed ds a snack and he immediately and excitedly said "Thhhanks!" My aunts friend who was sitting near by looked over at me and with a big smile she nodded her head in delight at my child.
Forcing them to say it may not be the best idea. Plus when you make a child say it in front of others, they will get embarrassed and more upset and I don't believe this is comfortable for anyone involved.
What about burping? We say excuse me when in a restaurant or if the burp is accidently in someone's face, or if it's overly loud during story time at the library.







Otherwise, it's just a normal and healthy release that we don't make a big deal about or it will become just that.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
This is a serious question. I saw some references by alot of you who were disgusted that the supernanny asked a child to say he was sorry when he was acting ugly toward his mom. ALot of you disagreed with that. Why? I've really been thinking about it ever since everyone was discussing Supernanny a few weeks ago and I can't figure it. Isn't saying you're sorry part of common courtesy?? Don't we want them to say they're sorry?? Please enlighten me...I'm all ears!!







:


Because I'm trying to teach my child to be honest. Forcing them to say "I'm sorry" is quite often forcing them to lie. I do say it for them though....and when they are actually feeling sorry they come back and say it on their own.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

We try to model good behavior, I think teaching by example is the best way to instill these kinds of things. But I am not above *reminding* DS occasionally of the right thing to say. Although I often will say "thank you" or "I'm sorry" on behalf of DS - he's only 2. Then later on, I'll go over the incident and give him handy phrases to use next time he finds himself in a similar situation. We also do some role playing - DS was having trouble asking for turns, etc. for a while so we practiced by asking each other for a toy and handing it back and forth. It seemed to help.

I never "force" him to apologize or thank someone, I want him to be sincere and I want him to understand the meaning behind what he's saying and why he's saying it. But that doesn't mean he gets to act like a jerk without experiencing consequences.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I don't like forced "I'm sorry"s for all the reasons mentioned before.

I think "Excuse me" or "Pardon me" is a better fit for accidental bumpings or what have you. And I do encourage that as "that's just what you say if you bump into someone/if you have gas/need to get someone's attention." I don't think that's as disingenious as "I'm sorry" can be.

I also encourage "thank you"s. I don't force, but we we've worked out a bit of a code/game where if my son forgets I'll give a little cough and a smile, and that's generally a good prompt.

If he neglects or doesn't want to say these things at the time (or really, even if he does), I still say it, too.

It's been amazing to watch how his true gratitude pours forth now. A friend of mine gave him some stickers this weekend and he said, "Thank you SO much! That was so nice of you to give me these stickers. Thank you!" She was postively beaming and he meant every word.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I think a lot of this debate stems from the fact that saying sorry means different things to different people. Some people, like my husband, feel that saying I'm sorry is expressing guilt over what you did (and emotion foreign to him.)

In that case- saying i'm sorry may not be true in many instances..

I'n my mind, however, I'm sorry reflects possibly remorse over what you did, but more likely regret for the way the person is feeling. For example, if I have to say "no" about something to dd, I don't feel guilt about it, or even remorse- however I'm still sorry she's sad and I'll say so.

In my mind, an apology is less about the person apologizing and more about the person who's receiving the apology: someone had their feelings hurt, or their foot stepped on- you say you're sorry. My feeling is that expressing regret for a person's hurt is the first step towards appreciating others' feelings.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
In my mind, an apology is less about the person apologizing and more about the person who's receiving the apology: someone had their feelings hurt, or their foot stepped on- you say you're sorry. My feeling is that expressing regret for a person's hurt is the first step towards appreciating others' feelings.

I agree - this is why I apologize when DS does not, I feel like the person's feelings deserve to be acknowledged, and I witnessed the act, and I'm sorry they were hurt. I think this models appropriate behavior to DS.


----------



## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I got this from someone on here long ago (thank you!!!)

I will ask Dylan, "Is there something you wanted to say?" when she normally would say "Thank you" or "excuse me" if she has forgotten to do it.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I simply tell my children that they should say sorry or give a hug if they don't want to say it. Sometimes I say "oh, I can tell that was an oopsie (accident) and you didn't mean to do it. Let's say sorry about it now." If they resist, I will say it instead--no big deal.

I try to emphasize the motivation in the language I use, rather than rote behavior. I think saying sorry is a good habit, but it shouldn't be acquired by force. How do you _make_ a child say they are sorry if they resist, anyhow?

I guess I have occasionally removed a child from playtime with others if he/she did something mean and not allowed them to return to the game w/o saying or doing something nice to make up for the meanness.

I also emphasize the child's choice in being "ready" to act better with friends. So returning to play only depends on the child saying they are in fact ready to behave nicely. That is an appropriate f eeling even if it is only verbally expressed to me. (I can pass it along though)

I really bothers me when people say sorry very casually and superficially, or sarcastically, thoughtlessly, or insincerely. It seems to happen a lot. JUST DON'T SAY IT AT ALL then is my feeling. And don't teach children to do so. So force creates one bad dynamic: a power struggle, and the fact that the words and feelings contradict sets up another: dishonesty.


----------



## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I think it depends on the situation. When dd was small I never forced her to say these things (or even "hello" when she was a toddler) ; I would model. Now she is 11, I will sometimes have to remind her to say "thank you" for a present- she is often too pleased and excited to remember, and is sometimes so shy she says it quietly and the person doesn't hear. Once she turned 9 or 10 if she was refusing to apologize to me for something I would say "I can take an apology for that, please."

While I understand wanting authenticity, it is also important to make these gestures; like applauding in the theatre, even when you hate the show. You applaud as a courtesy to the performers.

If dd bumped someone and didn't notice, I might say, "You bumped into her," and she'd say excuse me or "sorry," which many kids think is fine but old folks think is a brush-off. So I will sometimes apologize for her by saying, "Please excuse her/us." If she hears me that will prompt her to respond herself.

When it's forcing smaller children to say they're sorry for taking a toy or hitting another kid, it's just useless and only creates another power struggle rather than focus attention on the real problem in the first place. I see this with a niece of mine a lot and it's annoying and embarrassing to have to wait there while her folks try to extract an apology which is easier than getting blood from a stone. I would much rather they put that energy into getting her to stop whatever it was she did to begin with.









When I taught sometimes kids who'd done something to get into trouble- well their parents would have them write a little note. Then the gesture was made, the child wasn't put through the agony of apologizing in person, and all could be forgotten without the parents or anyone else thinking someone had "gotten away with" something.


----------



## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

I think what is pointless in this discussion is to say "well, manners are really important" or "I expect my children to show good manners".... I think ALL of us feel that way. The question at hand is _how_ we help our children to achieve this social quality. Some use the method of forcing them; others (like me) use the method of teaching by example, never actually telling them to say it.

Also, I do NOT like it when parents force their child to say "thank you" or "sorry" to me. It makes me feel uncomfortable, for myself and for the child. It's disrespectful to everyone involved. I wish people would just let children be children and believe the best about them. Getting caught up in the fluff of social graces is fine, but respecting children is a far superior priority.


----------



## starlite (Nov 7, 2004)

I have never forced my child to use manners - I gently prompt or answer on thier behalf and leave it at that.

To my sheer delight my 2.5 year old ds is an absoloute sweety pie!!!

He actually enjoys saying thankyou and sorry - without being prompted. Like he went thru this cute phase where he'd say sorry before deliberately jumping on us!!!! He says sorry to a spider that I threw outside!!! He dropped a litre of milk all over the supermarket floor (by accident trying to help!) and I just said 'oopsy!' but he says "oh no! Sorry!" to the lady mopping up - all of his own initiative.

He also has what we call 'polite temper tantrums'. He gets frustrated when he can't put the shapes blocks into their holes and starts to carry on. Then when dh or I come along and ask him if we can help, he says "thankyou mamma" or "thankyou dadda' when we help him fit the shapes! How polite is that.

Nah - never force a child to say anything they don't want to. I have friends that expect their children to give 'kisses' goodbye to adult friends and I hate seeing the poor child reluctantly kiss someone they don't feel genuine affection for. My child is taught manners, but he uses them on his terms only and that's just fine by me.


----------



## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think a lot of this debate stems from the fact that saying sorry means different things to different people. Some people, like my husband, feel that saying I'm sorry is expressing guilt over what you did (and emotion foreign to him.)

In that case- saying i'm sorry may not be true in many instances..

I'n my mind, however, I'm sorry reflects possibly remorse over what you did, but more likely regret for the way the person is feeling. For example, if I have to say "no" about something to dd, I don't feel guilt about it, or even remorse- however I'm still sorry she's sad and I'll say so.

In my mind, an apology is less about the person apologizing and more about the person who's receiving the apology: someone had their feelings hurt, or their foot stepped on- you say you're sorry. My feeling is that expressing regret for a person's hurt is the first step towards appreciating others' feelings.

^Yep, that's exactly it! It's not all about (me or you or...) Other people count too.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

We talk about "making things right" or "helping her feel better." Sometimes they apologize, or say excuse me, or give a hug, or help fix what was broken, or whatever.
Annette


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I saw some references by alot of you who were disgusted that the supernanny asked a child to say he was sorry when he was acting ugly toward his mom.

The biggest difference I can see here is that what happened on Supernanny was not asking, it was not about manners, and it doesn't seem to bear any resemblence to what any posters here are saying.

As a CONDITION of being released from a punitive time-out, the child on Supernanny was TOLD to apologize to the parent. If the child didn't do it in an authentic enough manner, she was told to do it again the right way.

I don't tell my kid to say, "I'm sorry" if they bump into someone, but I don't think it's wrong to do that.

The scenario that played out on that show seemed really wrong to me--very coercive, not responding to the child's emotional needs, and making it very conditional and tied to punishment.

Just seemed like they could have talked about how the child's ugly behavior impacted the parent negatively. Done some role-playing about what to do instead. Talked about how the child would feel if it had been done to them. And then offered "I'm sorry," as a tool for the child to use.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

I never thought of it that way!! The supernanny DID use it as a condition of being released from time out, which I had forgotten. You guys need to humor me a bit...I was raised so mainstream it's not even funny. Corporal punishment, etc, you name it. And was told that it was the only way to raise kids or else they would turn out crazy and go to jail







: So you can imagine that some of the ideas I see here as the norm positively puzzle me







so thanks for replying and keep sending the good ideas forth!!


----------



## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Well, in reference to the way it is used in Supernanny, it is really ridiculous, IMO. I don't think it serves any purpose except adding to the control and I really don't think that the kids have any idea what they are apologizing for. I am trying to be totally nonpunitive, so obviously I disagree w the whole Naughty place/ time out thing. But folks will use time outs...the thing is, it seems to be that it would be much more effective for the parent to remind the child what he did and why he was in the naughty seat in the first place. Then maybe ask or tell the child not to do it again,etc. I think that when they are putting these very young children into time out the children are pissed off at being there and by the time their minutes are up they probably don't even know what they had done wrong...they are just pissed about being punished. Making the apology is just a way to be released and imo the technique is teaching insincerity. Like I said, if someone wanted to use this method, I would think it would be better to release the child w a reminder of the reason they were put there. You know, "baby, you hit your sister. I can't allow to hit people, and if you do, you will have to stand in this corner. Please don't hit your sister. I think it would be nice if you went and told her you are sorry you hurt her." Or whatever. You know, or at the very least it would be better to have the child apologize specifically...instead of saying "tell me you are sorry," they could say "tell me you are sorry you slapped me" I really don't think it is a good idea anyway. I don't think that kids learn anything worthwhile from punishment. Just to not get caught misbehaving and that the parent is an adversary. But the whole blanket apology to get out is just ridiculous and teaches nothing positive.


----------



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Forced apologies are insincere and put the victim in the position of having to accept an "apology" that is meaningless. They also send the message to the perpetrator that you can use an apology to get away with almost anything.

I always modeled apologies for my daughter and she began using them naturally when she was old enough to understand. If necessary, I will remind her when she forgets to make an apology, but it's just a reminder and usually sounds like, "Do you think there's something you forgot to do?" and not, "Say you're sorry." Reminding is one thing, but forcing is another.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

For all the reasons discussed, I don't force apologies.

But another--how do you "force" or "make" a child apologize? Is there a consequence if they do not? Might they refuse (even when really sorry, and might have naturally apologized) because it is now a power struggle? (If you answer no to that one, you have not met my dd, lol).

I model manners (sorry, thank you, excuse me). I have answered for dd. I have discussed with dd the appropriate times to use these words (you hurt df....apologizing is the right thing to do....). But I do not command her to apologize. Nor do I try to "force" or "make" her, although I wouldn't even know how to start, unless it involved a consequence. Which is silly, imo. Cause just because dd doesn't want to apologize *right now*, she very well may be ready to genuinely apologize in 5 minutes, or one hour, or one day. IMO, the genuine apology is much preferred, and well worth waiting for.

I prefer the question: Do you TEACH you dc to apologize? (yes!) to Do you FORCE or MAKE your dc apologize? (no.)


----------



## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Haven't read it all, but I try to extend my kid the same courtesy as I do my husband.

So, if DH is given a gift and is SO taken with it, I might respond how pleased WE are (or the family) is to receive it. If it was very personal I might resond how much he needed it. I do the same with my child. We cover for each other. In fact we do the same at work. Somone might offer thanks on behalf of the department, but we'd never look at a co-worker and say "What do you say?" It's quite rude to comment on someone else's manners in public.

So I model and offer apologies and thanks for both my DH and DC. And DH does the same for me. I don't want you to get the idea he has no manners or anything. My soon to be 2 year old says please, thank you and sorry quite frequently, to us and her dolls. She doesn't always remember these when around strangers or larger family, but that's OK. She has me to say it for her. And she will continue to have me to say it for her as long as I'm her mother. I don't think there is an age cut-off where I expect her to say it herself. We all forget sometimes. We're all a family and we can step in for each other where needed.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I read a post earlier that mentioned the issue of making toddlers say "hello" which to me is a way bigger parenting snafu than making them say sorry.

I saw some lady at a video store the other day demand that her four year old dd say hello to the lady's friend, then tell her she can't get her movie because she didn't. In the end, she did get the movie- this was not a dramatic conversation, but it struck me how weird it is to remove a priviledge from a kid just because they are being shy.

Weird.

Funny thing about "I'm sorry" is that I'm a chronic apologizer- I say it all the time- often in place of excuse me, and my dd is staring to sound justlike me. I never noticed how often I said it till I heard her mimicking me!


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Dr. Sears' take:

5 WAYS TO TEACH YOUR CHILD TO APOLOGIZE
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t120100.asp#T120900

Positive Discipline on apologies:
http://posdis.org/questions/apologie...ialskills.html

My take:

I'm huge on manners. I also share the bad habit of apologizing too much. My goal for my son is for him to be both polite and assertive. Forcing an apology is not a good thing. I feel uncomfortable when moms do that. I believe the best way to teach is to model manners.

I'm very polite so I don't worry too much. However, I would tell ds in such a situation: "You can say sorry whenever you feel ready" or "How do you think we can help XYZ feel better?" And I would apologize for my child.

Also when you bump into someone, it's "excuse me", not "I'm sorry". I'm taking an "assertiveness training" and I read saying "I'm sorry" would be akin to saying "I'm sorry I exist". I'm guilty myself, but I'm working on it!









Cheers,


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

You can force a child to say sorry and thank you and all those things... There was a question asking how to do that...

Just look at my parents. They have a 4 year old and a 2 year old.

With the 4 year old they won't let him do anything until he says he's sorry. If he won't apologize right then, he gets sent to his room, yelled at and then left there (with the door lock from the outside) until he calms down and quits banging on the door. Then they go in and ask him if he is ready to say sorry and go play. He hears the words "go play" and immediately says sorry so he can go do something more fun than sit in his room. Sometimes he'll say sorry while he's screaming at them "I don't like you anymore"... all in the same sentance. He doesn't understand the meaning behind "I'm sorry" because to him I'm sorry coinsides with a punishment. When he gets old enough I KNOW he will have a difficult time saying sorry and most likely will not say it ever in a meaningful way (I have very much difficulty saying it myself)

And as for the Thank yous... the kids do not get any more treats (read: JUNK... fruit roll ups, ice cream, pepsi) unless they say thank you. Believe me... those kids are so addicted, they say thank you QUICK so they can have more. They again, don't understand the gratitude behind the thank you... they just want the reward from saying it.

Please do no flame my parents and their parenting methods, they won't change, I've tried. It is upsetting to me to know that my siblings are being raised this way. Please I just used them as an example to show that, yes, you can force an I'm sorry or a Thank you. DO NOT FLAME.

*I am also completely different from them and plan on lettingher learn the sincerity of the Sorry and Thank you.


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

having met far too many adults who don't understand when an "I'm sorry", "thank you", 'excuse me', or 'please' are necessary, i intend to make sure my child doesn't turn into one of them. I agree with modeling the appropriate manners, and I also prompt when necessary. It is not acceptable to me for my child to hit another child without apologizing. Of course she doesn't "want" to, but so what? Getting along in the world often requires us to do things we don't "want" to do. hell, i don't "want" to do half of what i do all day, but I have to for my family to thrive.

simple good manners can take someone very far in life, and i feel it is my responsiblity for jade to learn them.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
having met far too many adults who don't understand when an "I'm sorry", "thank you", 'excuse me', or 'please' are necessary, i intend to make sure my child doesn't turn into one of them. I agree with modeling the appropriate manners, and I also prompt when necessary. It is not acceptable to me for my child to hit another child without apologizing. Of course she doesn't "want" to, but so what? Getting along in the world often requires us to do things we don't "want" to do. hell, i don't "want" to do half of what i do all day, but I have to for my family to thrive.

simple good manners can take someone very far in life, and i feel it is my responsiblity for jade to learn them.

My goal is not only for my children to parcel out the correct words, but to honestly mean them as well. A forced apology, IMO, doesn't really get to the root of things. We take the time to explain what happened, how it affected the other person, why it hurt or was wrong, and then ask the child what they would like to do to make it right


----------



## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I agree with a lot of what is being said. I absolutely H A T E it when I see parents forcing their children to do things like "give Aunt Betty a kiss...GIVE AUNT BETTY A KISS!!!"...and things of that nature...it annoys me to no end....

Remember, virtually EVERY child will want to/attempt/will model the behavior of the biggest influences in their lives (i.e. their parents) so whether your child is saying "sh*t" at innapropriate times or whether they are saying "please and thank you" is largely up to you.
I don't have any worries or hard and fast rules about manners, as I am confident in my own manners, knowing when to say please and thank you, knowing when to say I am sorry, not afraid of making peace etc....so naturally, most children will follow suit....a lot of people will complain and moan about their child saying dirty words, acting out violence etc and my first thought is, that behavior doesn't fall from the sky---it is from you, or TV, or children at daycare, school etc---so it equally works both ways with good behaviors and manners....and since parents are children's BIGGEST influences, I plan on just modeling what I want to see...with gentle guidance and gentle reminders and different times (i.e. it is polite to say thank you for a gift even if you don't like the actual gift, its the thought that counts kind of thing)...

I liked this article a lot!

*How Children Learn Manners*

Take care!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
simple good manners can take someone very far in life, and i feel it is my responsiblity for jade to learn them.

I think you've hit on a sticking point of this conversation. I think we all agree that manners are important, and I think we all intend to teach them (everyone here, that is--not every parent who exists







).

But the question is, do we force them? Is it necessary to force in order to teach?

For those of you who insist that your dc apologize (on schedule--at the "right" time, rather than when the child feels apologetic)--how do you handle it if dc refuses?


----------



## Mary (Nov 19, 2001)

A friend and I were talking about this just the other day!

I too have no hard and fast rules about apologies. I prompt, remind, suggest, request that my son apologize, but if we get to the point where it becomes a power struggle I apologize on his behalf. By power struggle I mean he refuses, for whatever reason- usually because he doesn't know the person. I do not force apologies though because it just feels wrong to me. I am talking about toddlers here, not older children who should know better.

That said, my son spontaneously apologizes most of the time if not then my reminder usually works. He has a harder time if he doesn't know a person, but he is getting better about talking to people he doesn't know as he gets older.


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
But the question is, do we force them? Is it necessary to force in order to teach?


well, i think use of the word 'force' is a bit extreme, at least in my case. I prompt, explain why it is necessary (i.e. hitting hurts, and we apologize if we hurt someone), and if there is still a refusal-then i say something like "well, we can't play with our friends if we are going to hit them and not tell them we are sorry. when you are ready to tell her you are sorry and play without hitting, you can continue playing". i don't just let it slide, and let her continue whatever she was doing if she refuses to apolgize for inapproriate behavior. hitting is just an example, btw, luckily i don't really have much of that to deal with at this point. our current issue is more like yelling nasty things in a nasty tone. (i think i might prefer the hitting, actually







)

ideally she would do it herself, but at 5, she's not always ready or willing to do it without the reminder. and the occassional consequence. for me it is not only the manners that are important, but also, once I say, you need to apologize, if I don't follow through with something, then aren't I taeching her she actually doesn't need to apologize, or say thank you, or whatever?


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
once I say, you need to apologize, if I don't follow through with something, then aren't I taeching her she actually doesn't need to apologize, or say thank you, or whatever?

See, I think they are still learning, even if they don't successfully, willingly say the words that time.

As with so many things, I think this is another situation that just depends on the child. We avoid power struggles like the plague, lol, cause they are just so anti-productive for us. Dd's will is iron. So I have never tried to make her apologize. But, what I have observed is that dd will apologize, almost every time--but on her own schedule. Not exactly when I prompted, but maybe 5 or 30 minutes later. When the flush of anger has passed, and she honestly feels remorse, then she will initiate an apology. So, yes, I think she is definitely learning that she needs to apologize, even tho I don't follow thru with a consequence.

Frankly, I don't apologize immediately after being mean, either. If I am arguing with dh (rare) and say something mean (rarer), I am not likely to apologize immediately--I am probably still too angry to consider his pain. But I will apologize with all my heart once I've settled a bit. So I guess dd gets that strong will and heat from me







.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I haven't read this whole thread but I do make my children say they are sorry. But unlike other people I don't think "I am sorry" has anything to do with remorse or sympathy or feelings at all. It is more an admission of wrong doing. regardless of if you felt justified or not. To me it is simply saying "I was wrong regardless of how it felt to to do that or why I did it or how I feel about doing it. it was wrong. and i was out of line.".

My children rarely get away with mumbling a sorry either. I teach them several steps to a good apology.
1. admit what you did was wrong. "I am sorry I broke your toy. That was not the right way to handle the situation"
2. make restitution "I will have it fixed/buy you a new one"
3. seek forgivness for wrong doing "can you please forgive me for breaking your toy and letting my anger get out of control"

my children are able to do al of the steps by the time they are about 3 or 4. baby gets away with "I'm rorry" and giving back the toy or giving a hug and kiss. And we have a no drama/sass rule. Like I said it isn't about feelings so "say it like you mean it" doesn't mean anything but they had better not make a joke or a game out of it.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
Like I said it isn't about feelings so "say it like you mean it" doesn't mean anything but they had better not make a joke or a game out of it.


Or what?


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

They will have to not only apologize for whatever action started the whole mess but also for the fresh atitude. Not only to the person they were rude to but also to me for acting so inappropriately. My children have never been sassy during an apology but it happened to a friend the other day. the consequence is that her dd wil never set foot in that environment again. It was a real treat for her to be there, she knows how to behave in that environment and she really blew it. and then copped an attitude when told to make it right. She was old enough to know to how to behave and certainly old enough to know not to pull the drama crap but she did it anyway. If she could have, without getting sassy, without any emotion at all just said "I am sorry I wrecked your display. I will pay for what I wasted and clean up the mess. will you please forgive me for not thinking about you but only about myself'" (actually her mom would have settled for a sorry without the giggling, smirking, baby talk or fake sobbing - analyzing this situation from the moms retelling the problem was she said "say it like you mean it" and the child felt no remorse. What they had done really wasn't that big of a deal.. what was a big deal was the sassy nature of the apology. instead she should have been given an explination of what she did wrong, not just made the mess but wasting money and the employees time, embarrassing the adults (these children were 7 1/2 and 8 1/2), putting the clerk in an uncomfortable position, and then dissrespecting both her mother and the clerk by treating them as fools. She had plenty to appologize for and even if it was fun to make the mess and fun to make a silly insincere apology she no less owed an apology and she really couldn't have argued with the facts of what she had done wrong or that they were wrong. I have no problem pulling my child aside and having them reherse the apology before they make it rather than mumbling sorry or even worse thinking it is alla joke and having them act all high and mighty and sassing and rolling eyes while they do it.

But if mine had been there (and we were so close to being there) not only would they never set foot in that environment again but they would not hang out with those friends for a very very long time. I would apologize on thier behalf (I would have owed an apology also for not keeping a better eye on my child to begin with), leave promptly and dd would sit at the table writing, in her best cursive, a letter of apology. And she would sit there until she got it done. (and in this specific circumstance since the clerk in question has always treated her very kindly she would have to include a paragrph thanking her for her kindness and how she was especially sorry to repay such kindness with rudeness when all that was asked of her was a simple apology) And when she was done (because I know my dd) she would see the benifit of having just done it right with her mouth and actions rather than having to suffer through writing it out. But that would be the only option. my child willnever get away with refusing to apologize even though there is no way to make the words comeout of thier mouth in an appropriate manner right then.


----------



## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

[email protected] last post....

I must remind my husband to write a letter of apology in his best cursive for accidentally knocking over a display in the grocery store the other day, then laughing about it. He picked up the things and put them back of course, but that is just not acceptable. No more grocery store trips for him!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am a little bit stunned by that last post, lilyka. That is just an honest response, not a judgment. I'm not even sure what I am reacting to....the word "sassy" is bothering me a bunch....what was the girl feeling at the time? If it was a honest mistake (she got carried away, didn't realize what a mess she was making) might she have felt very embarassed? She could have been cloaking that shame in sassiness. Or, could there have been something else "off" with her that day?

My feeling is that the adversarial approach (pointing out all the things she did wrong, demanding an apology, punishing the refusal) didn't work. What might have worked (maybe?) is a more cooperative approach. Empathizing with dd about the shock of the mess, offering to work together to fix it. Working to keep her dignity intact so that she can stand tall, speak clearly, and apologize--without mumbling or giggling or undue shame or refusal.

Completely separate:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
I don't think "I am sorry" has anything to do with remorse or sympathy or feelings at all. It is more an admission of wrong doing. regardless of if you felt justified or not.

This is really interesting to me! Because, to me, the words "I'm sorry" mean "I have remorse". Isn't that what sorry means? If I am wanting to admit wrong doing, I can say "I was wrong." They are not the same thing at all in my understanding. It is interesting that others interpret them so differently.

So, I am wondering, is this why people say "I am really sorry"?
I mean, when I say "I am really sorry", I am saying "I am more than just a little remorseful, I am very much remorseful".
But, do others mean, "I am not just admitting wrongdoing, but I am also remorseful" when they say "I am really sorry"? As in "I am actually remorseful this time"?


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't even know what to say, except that this hardly seems to fall under the umbrella of gentle discipline.

It seems like everyone's feelings get taken into consideration here except the child- who is expected to lie and give an apology she doesn't feel.

Annette


----------



## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think forcing a child to say an apology they don't mean is bound to turn things into a power game. I remember when I was seven and my mother tried to make me apologies for something I wasn't sorry for and it became a very big power struggle with a lot of punishment and I never did say I was sorry. I use the words when I am sincere and my daughter is learning by my example to say she is sorry at the appropriate times. I do not want to turn the manners issue into a power game that one of us will lose. When parents lose a power struggle they lose respect to.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
Dr. Sears' take:
However, I would tell ds in such a situation: "You can say sorry whenever you feel ready" or "How do you think we can help XYZ feel better?" And I would apologize for my child.

This is a nice formulation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
i don't just let it slide, and let her continue whatever she was doing if she refuses to apolgize for inapproriate behavior.

I like this, too. I think we can be gentle without allowing a teachable moment to go by. Every misbehavior presents such a teachable moment.

So indeed does every thread here.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
But if mine had been there (and we were so close to being there) not only would they never set foot in that environment again but they would not hang out with those friends for a very very long time. I would apologize on thier behalf (I would have owed an apology also for not keeping a better eye on my child to begin with), leave promptly and dd would sit at the table writing, in her best cursive, a letter of apology. And she would sit there until she got it done. (and in this specific circumstance since the clerk in question has always treated her very kindly she would have to include a paragrph thanking her for her kindness and how she was especially sorry to repay such kindness with rudeness when all that was asked of her was a simple apology) And when she was done (because I know my dd) she would see the benifit of having just done it right with her mouth and actions rather than having to suffer through writing it out. But that would be the only option. my child willnever get away with refusing to apologize even though there is no way to make the words comeout of thier mouth in an appropriate manner right then.

And what if she would refuse to do that?


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And what if she would refuse to do that?

Therein lies the problem with power struggles!

I was thinking about this last night (couldn't sleep for other reasons, and thought about this thread to keep my mind off other things







), and I was thinking---if, after all of this punishment, and, imo, shame, the child does indeed learn to apologize quickly and politely--are they really learning manners at all? Truly learning social graces? Or just saying what they need to say to avoid punishment?


----------



## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I completely agree with a lot of the posters...

I mean, isn't that the same behavior we HATE about criminals? Ya know, how they will be in court or some interveiw or something and they will be very robotic "I am sorry for what I did"...just to appease (sp?) people, when you can spot from a mile away that they don't mean one word of it?
Is that really what you want to teach your children??? (not saying your children will become criminals, just pointing out that kind of "apology" is one we don't accept in society)


----------



## lauren4521 (Jan 14, 2002)

Wow...I didn't expect to see examples of such harsh and punitive discipline here. I am a big believer in that you do not have to make a child feel bad to help them learn. And to me, it's about teaching children self discipline, not about controlling them (which is what it appears some are doing - act this way or else).

I did ask my older son to "apologize" when his behavior was inappropriate. Sometimes he did, when he didn't - I apologized for him. Children truly do not learn empathy until they hit the 3s and even then it's a process. BUT they do model MUCH earlier on.

Both of my boys have said their "pleases" and "thank you's" and even "excuse me" when you are in their way or they bump into someone from very early on. My 3 year old has been saying "sorry" without any requests at all just from watching the world around him and seeing how the rest of his family behaves. My husband and I have always kept our pleases and thank yous in our daily routines. My kids learned from it. Refilling a water glass will get me an "OH THANK YOU" from my 3 year old - and again without request or encouragement from us.

I am very proud of my 6 year old and his manners. When we go out, he is constantly complimented on his good manners and politeness and my 3 year old is right behind him. And this from a VERY spirited, independent, strong willed little boy.







Model it and they will learn it.







BE the person you want your children to become.

Lauren


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Is removing the child from the situation and having them write a letter of apology really that bad? I don't see what's so wrong about that. Is it the part about making her sit at the table until she did it? I can see the problem with that but honestly, it's still not that bad IMO. Personally I would not takke that approach but I have seen the merits of time outs discussed here before, and nobody was *horrified*.

I agree that it would have been good if the situation had been approached in a way that allowed the child to keep her dignity, and I also agree that the sarcasm was probably a cover for the embarrassment she felt. But who knows how the mother handled it up to that point? Or how Lilyka would have handled it? It is possible she was rude to the employee without the mother putting her on the spot, it's possible she was just in a crappy mood and would have been rude no matter what. If my DS (at age 8) knocked over a display and then mocked the clerk who came to clean it up, you can bet I would apologize for him and we would leave the place and not go back until he had a plan for making amends. I suppose the difference here is that I would want DS to come up with his own strategy for rectification. But still, I can see myself taking him home and not going anywhere else with him until he did that. Maybe that's over the top. What would you do?


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Honestly, in the situation lilyka describes, I would be angry and it would show. I would have plenty of negative things to say about it, and I would say them. That communicates that this is a big deal, yk? Yet I would also try to shift gears into helping the child understand better why these things matter, etc. I would try to shift to being more understanding. And I would also remind myself that an 8yo is VERY prone to not understanding the boundary between horsing around and being completely innappropriate. Particularly when excited and in a stimulating place while tuned in to another child-friend more than anything else around them.

Even my highly intelligent, caring 10yo has difficulty with such empathy. She needs me to walk her through understanding how she is affecting other people much of the time. I think because children of this age seem adult-like in their speech and intellect much of the time, we forget how immature they really are.

We want our children to be morally "complete" right this instant--we consider this a necessity as parents to feel as if we are fulfilling our responsiblities. But really they aren't. We may expect and even require something, but it is easy to cross that line and have it become forced pretense and therefore destructive.

We can communicate that such things are unacceptable quite clearly w/o having to control the exact behaviors that come out of it... I think as a parent, one thing I would do is to make very clear specific reminders the next time we were going into any place with similar boundary challenges so that the expected behavior would be fresh in the child's mind. This wouldn't even require reminding the child of the previous incident, generally. They remember. Although I have often said htings like: "I feel uncomfortable about trusting you to behave appropriately here because of what happened the last time... I do not know if you are ready to control your own behavior in this situation." and offer the child the chance to voice intentions. I think such voiced intentions as a prerequisite is a very effective tactic, as it helps them create their own intentions and remember them. I would also be likely to not take the child on a similar outing for while. I don't liike putting my children in situations in which they have shown they cannot behave appropriately. I wait until they are a little older before trying again, perhaps with incremental easier situations leading up that allow me to give positive feedback on good behavior with each challenge....

Because I have a special needs child and each of mine has such different abilities and limitations, I know I have to be very aware of their maturity. Age-appropriateness isn't very useful since I have a 5yo who requires constant interventions similar to a toddler in such situations despite his normal intelligence. And EVERY child is different even if they don't have "special needs." Knowing this is my responsibiltiy, though it is hard to accept that responsibilty when I have misjudged our child's maturity for a situation. It is tricky to balance and adjust.

I think it is okay for the child to hear negative things, anger, etc. from me. That is simply honest. But it isn't what resolves or teaches. If I set myself up with a need to win the right result, I undermine my own ability to resolve the situation with integrity.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I justed skimmed some posts, but i was thinking.

the thing I want to teach my dd is that it's not a big deal to say you're sorry. I don't want to force her to say anything, nor do I want the word to become so charged that it takes on a life of it's own.

somebody wants to hear an apology, you apologize. It doesn't cost anything and it smoothes things over.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

A few more details. I am really not the big ole meanie I sounded.

She didn't accidentally knock over a display (that happens) chidlren were left unsupervised in a public place while parents chatted (I would have apologized first and formost fornot properly supervising my child) secondly she intentionally destroyed some of the resteraunts property not only wasting the stuff in question but making a horrible mess and being obnoxious to the point the cleark had to come and tell the parents to get control of thier children. I know the clerk that spoke to them and so does the mom and it had to be one of the hardest things she has ever done to go over to someone and tell them what thier children were doing and that something had to be done. My friend said the poor girl looked misreable. It was horrible for all parties involved. None of it was an accident. So my friend, embarrassed, apologized and told her dd to apologize. DD says I am sorry sarcasticly, smirks and walks away giggling and rolling her eyes. She was horrified. her dd has never ever acted like this. She she says "say it like you mean it. she slung her arm across her head, collapse and sobs "I boohoo am so boohoo sorry booboo" I am telling you had my child acted that way I would have had to seriously restrain myself. But I just can't imagine her acting that way ever because good attitudes are something we work on from the time they are old enough to show a little self control.

And really we homeschool and she has to a writing assignment everyday. writing an apology rather than devlivering it while looking someone in the eye really is a cop out in my book but one I will except to give my child a way to properly apologize when they just are too embarrassed to say it to someones face.

And I don't think sassy is too strong of a world. to me sassy is that eyerolling, smirking, giggle behind someones back, thinking they are all that, prideful,snotty attitude that sends me through the roof. Ihave no tolorance for it from adults or children. Anyone I can stay away from but since I have to live with my dd and it is my job to help her grow up into, at the very least, a tolorable adult with her I am willing to work with her to chase those sorts of attitudes away even if it takes a good long time.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Just personally, I try not to give orders. It is hard not to. Myself, after that sarcastic sorry, I would have pointed out very clearly that it was unacceptable. I woiuld have made clear to the child that I saw it for what it was--RUDE. But I wouldn't have done it in the way you describe.

What I see as a better way to do it is this: I would say while still there something like this: "That does not sound like sincere apology. What you have done is rude and inconsiderate and saying sorry in that way is mean. A real apology shows people that you care. We will talk about this more at home so that you can find a better solution." The people at the restaurant hear this. Later they do receive a written apology or something else subtantial and appropriate.

This places more of the conversation in a private situation and gives the child time to do the thinking she has not yet done. If she had thought clearly, it would not have happened. She still needs to do so. Then yes, fix it somehow.

"Say it like you mean it." seems to me like an order to put on an act. Let's help the child mean it first--then say it.

ETA: BTW I do think that behavior is horrifying. WOW. My kids get that a bit that way with me but not with others, generally. IT IS AWFUL.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I justed skimmed some posts, but i was thinking.

the thing I want to teach my dd is that it's not a big deal to say you're sorry. I don't want to force her to say anything, nor do I want the word to become so charged that it takes on a life of it's own.

[somebody wants to hear an apology, you apologize. It doesn't cost anything and it smoothes things over.]

But that's not really true, is it??? It DOES cost something..the child was deprived a critical lesson in manners and social graces, not to mention the fact that her attitude was obviously rotten. Smoothing things over for a kid that age is not doing them a favor, IMHO. It is teaching them that they can act however and no one is going to do a darn thing about it. This is the frustrating thing for me about GD and all non punitive systems. Remember that I was raised totally mainstream, and if I had done such a thing(destroying property and then acting that way) I would have gotten a "trip to the bathroom" if you know what I mean and then I would have been made to come out and apologize not only for the damage, but for my attitude as well. And then, I can assure you that would not have been the end of it. This is my huge question with Gd and stuff. If you have absolutely no way of enforcing what you say or request, what good is it to even try to shape or deal with kids????? Kids need boundaries, which has always been not only my opinion but my experience. I'm ready, so go ahead and flame away!!!


----------



## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I'm ready, so go ahead and flame away!!!


This is GD... our goal is not to flame, but to share our perspectives so everyone can grow as a parent!


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Fairly new member status not withstanding, I will still probably get flamed!! Thanks anyway, Pamela!!


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *deeporgarten*
"Say it like you mean it." seems to me like an order to put on an act. Let's help the child mean it first--then say it.

I agree I would never tell my child to say it like they mean it. There is always something truethful they can say to rectify a situation even if they feel nothing about it (or even if joy is thier present emotion LOL Sometimes we do something and someone really had it coming. That doesn't mean we don't owe an apology for the way we acted. Even if admitting we were wrong and humbly asking for forgiveness was totally worth it







)

and Bamamamom - I know how you feel. Here is the short version of how I decided to handle it.

1. one way or another it is my job to teach my children how to behave in an acceptable manner from thier hearts and not just thier actions.
2. when they act up it is because the teaching thus far in this area has been incomplete. inconsistant. or over ridden by outside influence.
3. So if they are struggling in an area, not understanding, not seeing the wisdomin my thinking I draw them closer and teach them some more as well as search out and eliminate bad influences. And they stay close to me and we talk about it, I look for ways to catch them exercising right choices and good behavior and praise them and gently correcxt when they take wrong paths. all the while keeping them very (literally) close to my side until they get it.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Lilyka, once again i find myself relating to you..me and my mom were talking about keeping them close to you just yesterday. I said that if you allow a 1.5 yr old to roam unattended through the house and don't check in on them for 25 minutes whatever they do to amuse themself is your fault , not theirs. I agree it is essential to keep them close to you during their forming years so that you can monitor their behaviour.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
This is my huge question with Gd and stuff. If you have absolutely no way of enforcing what you say or request, what good is it to even try to shape or deal with kids?????

:LOL It's such a mental jump, isn't it? I was raised like you and it was confusing to hear stuff like this for me, too. Often I'm posting to help solidify my own mental shift--and it's been about 2 yrs. of rethinking and researching. Keep asking questions! People may disagree (even vehemently), but most people don't flame.

So, to your question! You have to really start with the assumption that kids are really doing their best. That they really want to do the right thing.

Then, the notion of forcing or coercing might need to be more about suggesting or guiding. And critical to this, for me, has been making sure that my child and I are "on the same team." If I can focus more on *helping him learn* than *making him do* I find things go a lot more smoothly--his behavior is better, my behavior is better, and we are all a lot happier and more connected.

Kids who are forced have limited options. They can comply or subvert. If they comply, they can do so b/c they agree or because it just isn't worth it not to. If they already agree with what's being forced, it probably doesn't need to be forced, kwim? A suggestion or reminder would suffice.

If they comply out of "submission" what are they really learning? That it's easier to go along to get along? That my will isn't as strong as my parents? If only *I* had more power to get my way? And most importantly, what happens when that force is not there? Do they still make the same "good" choices? Do they turn to someone else to supply that force b/c they're not used to making their own choices?

If the kid who is forced, subverts what happens then? Do they just get more adept at not getting caught? Do they lie/sneak/hide? How do they end up feeling about their parents? Like they can go to them or trust them with issues/mistakes? What happens to attachment?

By guiding, modeling, and teaching I find I can get away from the comply/subvert trap. I can drop the adversarial relationship and focus more on problem solving WITH my kid. I know I am more open to suggestions when I see them working in someone else's life, if they are backed by reason, and if I can choose them freely. Backed into a corner is not where I am at my best--and I don't think that's unique.

Anyway, gentle discipline and/or not punishing don't mean throwing your hands up and letting the kids figure it out on their own. There are a lot of options between being authoritarian and permissive. I know I hadn't seen a whole lot of that in my life, so it was easy to fall into that either/or dichotomy.

Sorry to go on........







Keep asking questions (as Big Bird says, "It's a great way to find things out!").


----------



## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

monkey'smom-
thanks for that post! ITA, although your answer was much better and more articulate than mine would have been if I had tried to say it!


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamillie*
monkey'smom-
thanks for that post! ITA, although your answer was much better and more articulate than mine would have been if I had tried to say it!

ITA - right on, Monkey'sMom!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Beautiful post, Monkey's Mom!


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklemom*
I think what is pointless in this discussion is to say "well, manners are really important" or "I expect my children to show good manners".... I think ALL of us feel that way. The question at hand is _how_ we help our children to achieve this social quality. Some use the method of forcing them; others (like me) use the method of teaching by example, never actually telling them to say it.

Also, I do NOT like it when parents force their child to say "thank you" or "sorry" to me. It makes me feel uncomfortable, for myself and for the child. It's disrespectful to everyone involved. I wish people would just let children be children and believe the best about them. Getting caught up in the fluff of social graces is fine, but respecting children is a far superior priority.

This is an excellent post and one I agree with entirely. Thank you for stating it so well.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

FWIW bamamom, i think you may have misinterpreted mommyofschmoo. I think she was saying she envisions the idea of apology as something she wants her children to do and not be hung up on it. Just that they would do it naturally. And that it wouldn't be a power struggle. I think that she meant her _kids_ should learn that apologies cost nothing and they can themselves smooth things over by apologizing, though I;m not cure.

GD is not about kids having no boundaries. That would be appalling. I hope you don't really think that any of these moms are saying kids should get away with stuff and we won't do anything about it. We who advocate gd also have a lot of life experience and value wise boundaries for our children.


----------



## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

(thanks, oceanbaby







)

monkeysmom said: So, to your question! You have to really start with the assumption that kids are really doing their best. That they really want to do the right thing.

Exactly! So many parents immediately assume the worst about their child. Excellent post altogether!

I'll tell you, I was NOT raised with gentle discipline. Was I "well behaved" and mannerly?? Oh sure, you bet. But I was also (and still am) a fantastic lier and sneak, since as early as I can remember. And there is no deep level of trust between my parents and I, nor has there ever been.
We see each other relatively frequently, and we're cordial and loving for the most part, but there's a fundamental peacefulness and harmony that's just not there. That quality never bloomed since the foundation of our relationship was an adversarial one set up in childhood.


----------



## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

I don't think one way works for every kid!

I have 5.

With 3 of them, modeling behavior worked on many things. With two, HA! My son had behavioral issues. (I don't know how else to say it~!) He DID NOT care if he bumped someone or hurt their feelings. He needed to be taught that his actions affected others, for good or bad. I could model any behavior I wanted, he would be long gone , at least mentally, before we ever got to the modeling. BTW, I'm not talking about 2yos, here. I'm thinking more of age 5 and up.

My sweet 16yodd, she'd bump that elderly woman in the store and just duck her head and keep going. Or nearly knock down a much younger child in her rush to get from 'A' to 'B', and keep on going. She had a serious speech delay, hated to talk to anyone but me and dh. I would tell her, "You need to go and tell that lady your sorry you bumped her." NOt while the lady waited. I'd have said, "Oh, sorry!" and moved away a bit. I explained, hundreds of times, that apologizing immediately is easier than going back, but if you don't do it immediately, YOU DO have to go back. I'd explain that if the lady had run into her with her shopping cart, she'd have apologized. Usually my dd would quickly mutter an apology and I'd let it go at that.

In every case (She bumped everyone) the person receiving the apology accepted it gracefully, even though they probably couldn't understand her words.

Force? I don't think telling a kid that they can't get their promised treat is forcing. Bribing maybe.









And I think that saying your sorry is about living in society, better and more important than protecting your own right to be rude.

BTW, my sister modeled with her four kids. She is the most caring, giving person, never misses a birthday or holiday, always polite and has excellent manners. She did not want to push her children to do things they were uncomfortable doing. They were not the type of kids this seemed to work on. They are all adults, never send their mother a card or remember her birthday. I don't even speak to the boys, and have a marginal relationship with my niece. They are, as adults, the most obnoxious group! They never offer to help set the table or clean up after big holiday meals. They bump into you and don't apologize, or seem to even notice. In their late 30's only one is married, the others all are divorced and have been for many years. Thier kids are terrors, ten minutes with them is way to long. As teenagers they were so mean, they would pick on and tease my two yearold. No ne made them apologize.

Til I sic'ed my dh on them. He had to threated a 16 yo boy that if he teased our 2 yo again, he'd come over and straighten their pipes. I had talked, asked sis to talk to them, etc.

THese arent' the adults I'm hoping to raise.

I;'m NOT saying modeling doesn't work. Only that, like most things, it doens't work for every kid or every parent. We need to know ouyr own kids, and we need to know how their minds work. To force a small child to apologize to a stranger is mortifying for everyone involved. To teach a small child that that elderly lady is unsteady and that bumping them frightened them is to raise kind, responsible citizens. Even if they aren't thrilled about the lesson.


----------



## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
Because I'm trying to teach my child to be honest. Forcing them to say "I'm sorry" is quite often forcing them to lie. I do say it for them though....and when they are actually feeling sorry they come back and say it on their own.

I agree. I don;t force mine to say sorry either. Forcing them to say something they don;t mean doens't teach them anything.
Like you, if he doesn't say sorry, then I will say it for him, but 90% of the time he just says it.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I think there are two types of apologies. The first is a polite apology; when you bump into someone in a store, for instance, you might say "Pardon me" or "I'm sorry". That type of apology is just a habit, like saying "Thank you". Personally, I plan on teach my son to say "thank you" and "pardon me" or "I'm sorry" out of politeness because I want him to have good manners.

The other type of apology is when you have really done something wrong - taken a kid's toy, hit or bitten someone, etc. In that situation, I can't see forcing my child to say he's sorry.

I wouldn't force him to tell someone that he loved him, and I wouldn't force him to say he was sorry, because I don't dictate what his emotions and feelings are.

I may require him to make amends in some way, but that's different from demanding that he say "I'm sorry I bit you" when he doesn't really mean it.

DH is all about forcing people to apologize, so he may feel differently.


----------



## starlite (Nov 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mary*
A friend and I were talking about this just the other day!

I too have no hard and fast rules about apologies. I prompt, remind, suggest, request that my son apologize, but if we get to the point where it becomes a power struggle I apologize on his behalf. By power struggle I mean he refuses, for whatever reason- usually because he doesn't know the person. I do not force apologies though because it just feels wrong to me. I am talking about toddlers here, not older children who should know better.

That said, my son spontaneously apologizes most of the time if not then my reminder usually works. He has a harder time if he doesn't know a person, but he is getting better about talking to people he doesn't know as he gets older.


----------



## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

_Sorry_ is a feeling.

As with all other feelings I want to equip my kids with the verbal tools to express it when they feel it.

But my main concern is that they FEEL it. My main concern is to raise children who _feel sorry when they've hurt someone_. And if they feel it, and if they have the verbal tools to express it ... why then, they'll express it.


----------



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

monkey's mom I loved your post and ITA. This whole thread has really made me re-work they way I handle things. In theory I don't believe in forcing a child to apologize and YET I have been making ds apologize (with hugs) to our dog everytime he hits her (which is often) But he's only 19 mos, he doesn't really get it and he's not really sorry. But why do I do this to him and make it a production...?







Because my ideas of what is good or right or an expansion of spirit isn't always what I practice! This is why I come back to mdc again and again.









Bumping into someone or other accident type situations are, to me, situations where a quick aknowledgment is necessary. If I bump into the old lady at the store, I would say "excuse me" or "Ooops, sorry." And go on about my way. No biggie. I think telling your dc, "next time that happens it's nice to say, excuse me , etc. is perfectly appropriate. However, the real trick is teaching your child to feel empathy toward others and to apologize for things that truly diminish others...like betrayal or lying. Etc. I don't know how you'd do that. I don't think you can make a child apologize for that. I think you just try to show them the way and hope they get it. I feel that punishing a child who refuse to apologize for hurting another's feelings is like hitting a kid for hitting. In the end I do believe that most kids are reasonable and do "get it" and make this leap if given the right tools.


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I never force or even ask DD to say "I'm sorry" (but DH sometimes does).

She just turned 3 this week, and it amazes me (almost scares me) how much she says "I'm sorry" on her own. After she gets upset about something, she APOLOGIZES for it. (Granted, I've done the same thing.) I explain to her that it's OK-- no need to apologize-- everyone gets upset (though again, I have modeled to say "I'm sorry" after that happens). Sometimes it makes me wonder if I have been too apologetic and it influences her.

As far as thank you, yes, I have required that. To tell you the truth, I don't think "thank you" is demeaning. It's just asking the person to acknowledge (as someone said here) that you are not the center of the universe. . .and that someone else has tried to do something kind for you, even if you don't like what they did or the present they bought. "I'm sorry" requires you to actually FEEL (versus "thank you" being just an acknowledgement) to be sincere, as well as to admit (sometimes) some sort of wrongdoing.

I actually have taught my daughter to say "no, thank you" from an early age, too. She used to shout "NO!" to us when she didn't want something. Now she says "No, thank you." When she says this, I do my part by not pushing whatever it is on her, so that she knows she is respected (except in an extreme situation). Then she doesn't ever feel like she has to shout "No" because she knows we'll listen.


----------



## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

It's interesting that some have difficulty saying sorry as adults because of the idea that it is an admission of guilt or wrongdoing. I know people like this and whew, does it get tricky. I keep wondering why they can't just toss a token apology to clear the air and move on! I've always felt I am sorry someone feels bad, not necessarily sorry for what I did. If it was a mistake, then I didn't mean to do it, and if it was them overreacting and I'm not sorry, then I can still apologize for their feelings being hurt.

My dd is at an age where she says "sorrysorrysorry" for everything from stepping on your toe to spilling something to forgetting her sweater. It's a preteen thing but I do try to point out to her that if she doesn't break that habit her apologies aren't going to mean much when they're really required.

I can't stand it when toddlers are pushed to say hello and goodbye and so on. My inlaws are really into that and it caused tremendous conflict between us because I don't believe in doing that. Adults should model a happy greeting and all but ignore the child until the child is ready to interact.

The apology thing really depends on the situation. I suppose there are times to require a child apologize but for the most part it seems counterproductive. Making up for whatever happened is probably more effective, less traumatic and even fun!


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
I keep wondering why they can't just toss a token apology to clear the air and move on! I've always felt I am sorry someone feels bad, not necessarily sorry for what I did. If it was a mistake, then I didn't mean to do it, and if it was them overreacting and I'm not sorry, then I can still apologize for their feelings being hurt.

Interesting. For me, a token apology tossed lightly my way is not going to make me feel better if I am truly upset about something. Also, I have always felt that someone telling me they are "sorry I feel that way" is a nice way of telling me to get over it already. Neither of these things make me feel like I am being taken seriously, or that my feelings are valid to the other person.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think that the different interpretations of "sorry" are interesting, too. And, I think it sets us up for a lot of dissatisfaction.

On the one hand, there are the people who consider "sorry" to be polite, but not necessarily meaningful. These people will be offended if we do not press apologies with our children.

On the other hand, there are the people who consider "sorry" to be a verbalization of a feeling. These people will be uncomfortable or offended if we do press apologies with our children.

Seems like there is no winning


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Maybe we should all wear buttons proclaiming our position, lol. I often think life would be so much easier if people did this.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I also think people accept opologies the same way they give them. I'll generally accept an offhand apology and try to move on, publicly at least.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

All this talk of sorry is intresting to me. I do make my children apologize (we have already hashed that out) but I don't accept just a "sorry" for most things (little thinghs of course but where there was intent to hurt someone they have to go through all the steps). Nor do I consider someone elses sorry worth much. When I am hurt by someone (of course this doesn't include the little unintentional things, like bumping into someone or spilling a drink.) I want a full apology before I can move on. I need to hear them say they were wrong, they know they hurt me by doing ****, can I forgive them and then anything that can be done to rectify the situation I want it done. and yeah it is a lot to ask but I think we have established "sorry" means very little. even a feeling of remorse doesn't mean anything to me. great you feel bad. what are you going to do about it? I want to know juyst how bad you feel. maybe there isn'tm uch you can do but you can ask me for forgiveness and pledge to not do it again. That is the least I expect

what do you want from people by way of apology? What is it that actually makes you feel better? I think when we examine this more we will be able to decide what and how to teach our children to handle thier mis-steps.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I agree with whoever said there were really two different levels of apology, the "oops, excuse me" kind, where one inadvertently did something that caused a small bit of discomfort to someone (like bumping into them), and the deeper ones, the "I made a bad decision that hurt you and I take responsibility and am sorry". If someone bumps me and says, "Oops, I'm sorry!" I say, "No problem," and smile and move on, and I'm fine with it... but if someone did something like forget to show up for their shift at work and said, "Oops, I'm sorry," after I had to work 4 more hours and miss something I had planned to do, that wouldn't cut it.

Both times it's taking responsibility for the action and expressing regret, but the regret I feel for lightly bumping someone is much less than the regret I'd feel for forgetting to relieve someone at work, or venting my anger at my kid... those things require more of an apology, and some sort of attempt to make amends wouldn't hurt, either.

I guess I would think that people who were forced to apologize as children would have the harder time apologizing as adults, because it was seen as a big deal to make them do it.

My experience with a 12 yr old who was never forced to apologize is that she has mastered the art form just fine, and apologizing isn't a big thing for her to do. When she was little I did apologize on her behalf sometimes, and modeled things, and we talked some about the polite thing to do when one bumps into someone, after the fact... but I never prompted her or required an apology.

Dar


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
When I am hurt by someone (of course this doesn't include the little unintentional things, like bumping into someone or spilling a drink.) I want a full apology before I can move on. I need to hear them say they were wrong, they know they hurt me by doing ****, can I forgive them and then anything that can be done to rectify the situation I want it done. and yeah it is a lot to ask but I think we have established "sorry" means very little. even a feeling of remorse doesn't mean anything to me. great you feel bad. what are you going to do about it?

Wow. That's an awful lot of self-abasement to expect from someone. How often do you actually get this? It sounds like this is a big issue for you...

I'm pretty laid back, I guess. If I know that the other person honestly regrets the action, it's usually okay. If the action caused me a serious financial hardship, it would be nice if they would offer to pay it, but if it's a small thing I wouldn't care. My neighbor came over and fed my cats while we were out of town for a couple of days once, and he accidentally closed the door to the bathroom, where the catbox is. The cats decided to shit and piss all over the futon instead. It was totally ruined, of course, and a new one was $100. He apologized and offered to pay, I thanked him and declined. The next time I asked him to watch the cats, I hung a towel over the bathroom door so it couldn't be closed.

Quote:

I want to know juyst how bad you feel. maybe there isn'tm uch you can do but you can ask me for forgiveness and pledge to not do it again.
I would feel uncomfortable with the kind of apology you describe here, really, unless the other person had done something truly heinous. I can't even imagine what would merit that, though... if someone intentionally seriously harmed or killed my daughter, I guess. Generally, though, knowing the other person is sorry is fine.

Dar


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
what do you want from people by way of apology?

To me, what is more important than an apology, is action . . .I myself have been known to apologize, and then make the same mistake repeatedly. That gives my apology much less credibility. And I don't like it!

Of course, my DD is only 3, so I EXPECT that she'll make the same mistake again (and again). I have different expectations depending on the age. I also don't expect an apology in the formal sense of "I'm sorry." Just an acknowledgement that she understands what I don't like. Even then, I don't expect anything verbal. I like her to listen to what I have to say, and that's the most I expect.


----------



## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

How do you teach your child to respond when someone apologizes to them for their actions? I'm thinking of 4 yr olds and the scenario when one child hits another or a similar type of injustice. The parent who instructs one to apologize what would you advice as an appropriate response from the receivor? Usually you hear someone say thats ok,and really minimize the situation.I'm not sure what to say in that situation...should one accept the apology or simply state the action hurt and please don't do it again?

My apologies if this was discussed earlier in the thread...if so just disregard


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I'm not sure that I've ever received an apology from someone who's REALLY hurt me. And I've never bothered asking for one. It usually takes several times getting burned by a person for me to even realize I'm being burned- at that point I learn it's just this person's nature and there's no point in asking for an apology.

The thing is, people who do things that really hurt you tend to do them again, whether or not they are sorry. Even mediocre wrongs like showing up late or borrowing clothes and returning them dirty. Someone may be sorry, but in most instances it is a part of who they are- you can either accept it and never expect them to be on time/wash your clothes or you can decide to end the relationship.

For those people who do something out of character by showing up late only time will tell if the sorry meant something or not. If someone actually tries to make an effort to change over time, that's worth way more than any apology ever could.

Anyway- that's why I take "sorry" lightly- I see it as a nicety to keep polite society running smoothly. It does't seem to serve much of a purpose beyond that.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quillian*
Usually you hear someone say thats ok,and really minimize the situation.

In my book a 4 yr old hitting is pretty minimal, but that's just me, and my experiences with lots of 4 yr olds who hit.

Quote:

I'm not sure what to say in that situation...should one accept the apology
Yes. That's good manners, to be gracious about it.

Quote:

or simply state the action hurt and please don't do it again?
Ug. No. That's rude, in my book, to respond to a sincere apology that way. Kind of twisting the screws a bit...

dar


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
To me, what is more important than an apology, is action . .

Action is important for me, as well.
If dh screwed up, and apologized, the most meaningful thing he could do is talk with me about how we/he could prevent the same problem in the future. That, to me, shows that my feelings are important to him.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i have been hurt by so many people this year and I am really a very forgiving person but I do need a full apology before our relationship can be restored. Don't get me wrong. I won't be uncivil but it willbe hard for me to trust you unless I know you understand what you did werong and why it was wrong. For example someone did somehting very hurtful to me. They had to see it coming like a train wreck as there was obvious deciet. they lied to me and snuck around behind my back. And then there was what they did. What I needed to hear was "I am relaly sorry. i had no idea it meant this much to you. I had no idea it would hurt you this much. I understand why you can't work with us anymore on this, don't worry about that. I would really like it if you could forgive me."

I am also really sick of people in my life who continue to say sorry but don't change thier behavior. they just keep hurting me. and they are sorry. sure they feel remorse about being jerks but it doesn't keep them from being jerks in the same way in the same day.

and yes I have been giving this a lot of thought lately because i Have had a lot of apologies to make this year also. and realy it is no big deal to admit where I was wrong. Well it isn'tnow that I have seen how far it can go towards healing. Ya know, I was wrong. i wouldn't be apologizing if I weren't. And regardless of how justified I felt in my actions if I hurt someone I can almost always (Ok always) find someplace where I could have been more loving, understanding, gentle, etc . . . even in a disagreement where I am right. Of course that is not as easy as just saying "sorry" even a passionate heartfelt one. but I do believe it goes a whole lot further.

As far as how do I expect my children to respond to "i'm Sorry" they are taught to forgive and to express it verbally. Even if the person hasn't asked for forgiveness (and I do believe there is difference than expressing sorrow and asking for forgivness. maybe that is my deal. I much prefer a plea fro forgiveness over an expression of sorrow and that is what I am teaching my children to do because as I expresses earlier you can say sorry a hundred times and truely mean it but it doesn't change anything. you will just go on feeling sorry. seeking and giving forgivness is what heals and restores relationships) I still expect them to offer forgiveness even if it isn't offered. We talk about fogiveness all the time it is a central theme in our world. There are constant reminders of how much we have been forgiven by Christ and each other and how they need to modle Christ's example. And we have plenty of oppritunities at home talk about it and practice it.

It is never ok to say "Thats OK" because it is not ok to cause someone hurt. ever. either intentionaly or unintentionally, physically, emotionally or financially. In the event of little things, like bumping or accidentally taking a toy you were playing with etc. . . all those little "excuse me, pardon me oops" things I teach them to say stuff like "of course" (excuse me, pardon me) "no problem" , "no harm done" "don't even worry about it"

So to the specific example of Suzie hits jenny and suzie says I am sorry. great Jenny should say I forgive you. or I am OK or even thank you. or in the case of 4 year olds, I still love you







But to say "it's OK " says it is ok to hit so long as you sa yyou are sorry. No it is never Ok to hit. And I know that is not what people mean but it is what you are saying none the less. take a few minutes and find something better.

a good apology and loving response is the first step to world peace







Start with little things and the big ones will be easier.


----------



## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Dar,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
In my book a 4 yr old hitting is pretty minimal, but that's just me, and my experiences with lots of 4 yr olds who hit.

But is it minimal to the other 4 yr old getting hit? I think not,especially when its unprovoked.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Yes. That's good manners, to be gracious about it.

Is it good manners to say sure thats ok if your dh gave you a slap or something along a simialr vein? Noo...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Ug. No. That's rude, in my book, to respond to a sincere apology that way. Kind of twisting the screws a bit...

Really? If my child gets bitten or struck by another child your telling me that I should teach them to say what exactly? Thats ok alls fair on the playground? And for the record I'm unsure how sincere the apology is its usually given at the request of the caregiver and the injured child usually looks to their caregiver for direction kwim. What would your direction be?


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quillian*
Is it good manners to say sure thats ok if your dh gave you a slap or something along a simialr vein? Noo...

Clearly, there are some things that an apology won't fix. There are even some things that can't be forgiven, at least not without a lot of time and effort. Comparing a 4 yr. old punching another 4 yr. old on the arm with spousal abuse is comparing apples to oranges.

I agree with Lilyka, that if someone is truly sorry they will make an effort to change. I think this is what people are talking about, with the whole forced apology thing and trying to teach our children to speak honestly about their feelings. If your 10 yr. old goes swaggering through the grocery store, bumping into old ladies, gives them all an offhand "sorry" then the next day goes in there and does it again, then obviously the apology is worth nothing. Apologies are not "get out of jail free" cards, they do not give the user free rein to act like an ass. Nobody is under any obligation to accept an apology, either, especially if it's the third or fourth time the offensive thing has happened. I'm not saying we should all go around with chips on our shoulders, holding grudges against one another, but I do think a lot of apologies are offered insincerely or thoughtlessly and are worthless.

It makes me a little sad to read that apologies are viewed as nothing more than a societal nicety, with nothing else behind them, and that if someone does something rude or inconsiderate, it is unrealistic of us to expect them to change. That may be true. But for my part, if I value a relationship and I am doing something that hurts the other person, I make a real effort to stop doing it. (At least to them.







)


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quillian*

Really? If my child gets bitten or struck by another child your telling me that I should teach them to say what exactly? Thats ok alls fair on the playground? And for the record I'm unsure how sincere the apology is its usually given at the request of the caregiver and the injured child usually looks to their caregiver for direction kwim. What would your direction be?

Well, the scenerio given was a sincere apology, and and I don't think caregivers should request that the child apologize. So, when my child would be hit and the other child apologized, and seemed to be sincere, she would usually say, "It's okay," and they'd go off to play together. Not "It's okay that you hit me" but "Things are okay between us now" - basically that she accepted the apology and didn't hold a grudge. Four year olds generally aren't big on social graces, at least a lot of them aren't. Yeah, hitting wasn't the right thing to do, but it wasn't uncommon, either.

At least when my daughter was involved, it was rarely entirely one child's fault, either - there was usually some kind of conflict going on, and one child (or both, often) made some poor (but developmentally appropriate) choices in an attempt to resolve it. I remember Rain geting hit when she told someone he wasn't invited to her birthday party, for example, which was one of the worst things someone could say to another in her "crowd".

I had a much easier time handling conflict when the other child was not forced to apologize, actually. Then I could talk about what happened with my kid (with the other kid and his caregiver talking too, or at least listening) and talk about how she feels, and I could sympathize, and generally as long as the other kid didn't feel that he was going to get jumped he usually did apologize, or somehow attempt to make amends. Often I found that the "attacker" felt worse than the "attackee", because he had been so upset over whatever that he had lost control.

I guess most of the people I let into my life are basically good people. They don't intentionally try to hurt me, and when they do they sincerely apologize and it's over. There are occasional exceptions - a guy I dated for a while, for example - but generally they *aren't* sincerely sorry, and then afterward they're just not part of my life. I just don't know people who make empty apologies....

The last apology I got was Thursday night, from the chairperson of a youth theatre committee I've been on for a couple of years. She's directly the current show, which has been full of headaches (a major character having to drop out, losing the theatre on the day of a scheduled performance) and on the day we met, another show was loudly rehearsing in the background. She was rather short and grumpy, and afterward emailed and apologized. I accept, I assume everyone did, and it's over now. No big deal. If she'd asked for forgiveness or asked how she could make it up to me, I would have felt awkward. It was just not a big deal, and I understood where she was coming from.

I do think there's a big difference between apologizing and asking forgiveness. I do the former, not the latter. If you want to forgive me that's your personal choice, just like it's my choice whether to forgive you or not. If I apologize and you don't accept it unless I do this or that, I feel like you're playing a game with me, like I'm supposed to abase myself to gain your forgiveness. I'm not into that, either doing it or asking for it. If I can't take people at their word on an issue that's important to me, then I really don't want them in my life. And if I can take them at their word, it's enough to know that they're sorry.

Dar


----------



## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

No I am certainly not comparing a 4yr old pushing/hitting another to spousal abuse. The point was that all apologies are not easily accepted nor should they be imo. I also think a time factor is involved btw the act/apology and acceptance of same. I don't seem to making myself very clear though ...here is another scenario....your 4 yr old is playing with a toy in the sandbox another 4 yr old comes over and pulls it away ,your child does not release their hold and the other child gets physical. Both parents intervene,the initators Mother requests her child apologize(not saying this is acceptable or not) what then would you tell your child to say if they sought your direction?


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't know, I am not very good at these kinds of questions, and my DS is only 2 so we are not there yet! But, off the top of my head I guess I would ask my DS if he was doing OK and if he was, I would tell him that he could tell the other child it's no big deal, or hug him or something. If he didn't, I would thank the other child for the apology and leave it at that.


----------



## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I had a much easier time handling conflict when the other child was not forced to apologize, actually. Then I could talk about what happened with my kid (with the other kid and his caregiver talking too, or at least listening) and talk about how she feels, and I could sympathize, and generally as long as the other kid didn't feel that he was going to get jumped he usually did apologize, or somehow attempt to make amends. Often I found that the "attacker" felt worse than the "attackee", because he had been so upset over whatever that he had lost control.

I agree with you which is why I truly would like some direction. I find it very uncomfortable for my children to become part of someone elses education kwim? We may try to remove ourselves or resolve or whatever with hopefully everyones dignity intact but when the pressure and direction is coming from the other childs parent I find it somewhat awkward.


----------

