# A wasting food WWYD



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I am feeling a little conflicted about what to do. I made turkey sandwiches for ds1 and dh. I asked ds1 if he wanted cheese on his, and he said no. Dh had cheese on his. As they are eating, ds asks if he can have half of dh's sandwich. I ask ds if he just wants a piece of cheese, and he says no. So dh gives him half. Ds takes one bite, then I see him pulling it all apart, breaking the bread up. I ask him not to pull it all apart unless he's going to eat it, because otherwise it's wasted and no one else can eat it. He says he's going to eat it. Fine. He proceeds to eat the cheese, and then says he's done. There's quite a bit of turkey and bread left that no one else really wants to eat since ds kind of mangled it, all the while being cautioned to only do so if he was going to eat it all.

So, do I make him eat the sandwich the next time he's hungry? I hate to force anyone to eat anything they don't want, but he also needs to learn that he can't just waste food like that. We've talked about food, and how food costs money, and if we waste money on food then we don't have money for fun things like toys and the like, but ds either doesn't get it or doesn't care. So if I don't make him eat the sandwich, how do I get him to get that he needs to be more mindful of not wasting food?


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

My ds has a history of this as well. The rule in our house is, you ask for it you must eat it before you get anything else. I make what the kids want for their breakfast and lunch. Therefore they are getting what they asked for and need to eat it if they want something else. I serve them small portions to lessen the chances of food getting wasted. I think that's key. Therefore if it ends up going down the drain or in the trash since they didn't want it, it wasn't much to begin with. If they love it and eat it up they are welcome to more.

At dinner, I serve a variety of foods that I know they like and have eaten before. If one of the foods is something they don't want that day there are at least two other options they can eat. Again, they get small portions.

In your case I would not have given ds any of dh's sandwich. I would have offered him his own cheese and if he turned it down then that would've ended that. He could eat his sandwich or be finished with lunch. There's, usually, plenty of fruit, veggies, yogurt, or nuts in the house if he wanted something later.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I would not ever make/force a child to eat something that they didn't want.

I can understand that people do not want to waste food, but I would rather lose half a sandwich than to force the sandwich on the child.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

With our 2.5 year old we waste a lot of food. I figure it sort of goes with the territory.

There are plenty of times when I order something at a restaurant - or make myself something - and then decide later that I don't really want all of it. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood to eat it all, or it doesn't taste the way I hoped it would. We allow dd to make those same decisions, in that respect.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I would NOT make him eat it.

Nothing good can come from forcing food on a child.

But it seems like there is a VERY simple solution:

I would only allow smaller amounts on his plate (1/4 of a sandwich for example) letting him know he is welcome to more once that is done.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

My kids have done this, too. We, also, have the rule that if you ask for it, you have to eat if before you get something else. I don't hold with food frivolity. Having two kids adopted from Ethiopia, I can't stand the idea of wasted food, and just because we live in the US and have access to an overabundance of food does not mean we should be wasteful of it or encourage our children to believe that they are entitled to be finicky.

Namaste!


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## cedoreilly (May 21, 2005)

I don't force them to eat it but I tend to give my older two very small portions of foods that they are known to try to waste. Worst, comes to worst, food does not go to waste in this house. Even if it is torn about my 1 year old (or me) will eat whatever the other two leave behind, usually (he is teething right now and is very picky at the moment but usually he will eat anything in any kind of condition.)

As far as you situation, I would of given him one bite at a time of your DH's sandwich. In our house, if you try to eat my lunch you will only get one bite at a time because I want to loose at little of my lunch as possible!!!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

There are plenty of times when I order something at a restaurant - or make myself something - and then decide later that I don't really want all of it. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood to eat it all, or it doesn't taste the way I hoped it would. We allow dd to make those same decisions, in that respect.
This is how I generally feel and why I am conflicted about this. At 2.5yo I wouldn't even think about it. But I guess it's because we asked ds (who is turning 5 in a few months) specifically not to destroy the sandwich because dh wanted to eat it if ds wasn't going to that it tweaks me a little.

I have never forced a child (or an adult for that matter) to eat anything, and it generally goes against everything I believe about relationships with food and listening to your body.

After reading your replies and thinking about it further, I'm just going to chalk this up to a learning experience and remind ds about this next time he asks for something of ours and balks because we only give him a few bites at a time. It's very important to me that ds understands and appreciates that we are very fortunate to have such an ample supply of food, and that it is important that it not be wasted, but maybe that is still a few years off.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This is about the most difficult part of parenting for me. We strive to be non-coersive and so far I have been able to be OK about food, but sometimes I have to go in another room and scream into a pillow. I do not waste food. If I order soemthing or make something I don't like, I force myself to eat it. Not healthy, I know. But our food budget is more than our mortgage and I just cannot justify throwing out good (or at least edible) food. Can. Not. Do. It. My problem, not dd's (or dh's for that matter), but it is so hard for me. I most definately have eating issues. Plus cooking is my one talent. It is the only thing I do that anyone outside of myself thinks is "gifted" so I cannot admit defeat. Yes, f'ed up. Anyway, I am all ears to solutions to this problem. My dd would have insisted on having the whole half too. And I would have just had to bite my lip. I am thinking that they will only want to do it a few times (with maybe a relapse or two). He probably understands wasting food. I am thinking you did everything right here. There really isn't a better solution. You could have offered less than the full half, but if he insisted, what else could you do?


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## maria423 (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:

I would NOT make him eat it.

Nothing good can come from forcing food on a child.

But it seems like there is a VERY simple solution:

I would only allow smaller amounts on his plate (1/4 of a sandwich for example) letting him know he is welcome to more once that is done.
This is exactly how I feel about it. If I have a good feeling that my dd won't eat something she asks for, I give her a small portion and let her have more if she finishes it.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I figure, a person should never be forced to eat anything. And kids are still learning how to read their hunger cues, judge how much food they need, and what foods they like. So many of us adults that were forced to clean our plate as children now dutifully clean our plates whether we're hungry or not, and then complain about the extra weight we carry around.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

Right now we are going through a thing about "trust" because DS have been teeling some fibs (totally age appropriate). So I would chalk this up to an experience (I WOULD tell him that I was upset/disappointed that he did what he did). But the NEXT time he wanted half of daddy's sandwich I would tell him that I was sorry but that since he destroyed it (AFTER I ASKED HIM NOT TO - that's the issue here IMO) I couldn't trust him not to do the same thing. I would give him a bite at a time but not the entire thing.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Daddy gave it to him, so I guess I feel it was his to mangle! Daddy does not have to give him food that he would like to eat himself. DS can mangle his own food next time.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Feed it to the dog or the cat or the neighbor's dog or cat? Or take the bread and feed ducks and eat the turkey? Or feed the turkey to a stray cat?

We don't waste food here as a matter of course, but find creative solutions for food wastage that might occur. Like composting. It's another way to recycle.

My littlest always eats the crusts from my biggests sandwhiches. And the cat will eat whatever fish we don't want but don't want to save.

Now throwing what you don't want on the floor: that makes me crazy.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

We have had similar issues at our house. Kitchen rules are that if you ask for it, you eat it. If you don't eat it you don't get any snacks, treats, other food until you do eat it. If you still don't eat it, then you will not get served that food again. None of my children now are allowed food from "us", the adults in our home. Often times they will beg for something we are eating only to waste it. Often at times this was the last thing of that sort to eat, which really makes me upset because to me its like a form of stealing.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I'd try getting him to help prepare lunch for everyone (including his little brother.) Seeing that there is effort involved in preparing food might make the point more clearly than any rules.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
]You could have offered less than the full half, but if he insisted, what else could you do?

Tell him, "I'm sorry, but this is mine and I don't want to share an entire half of the sandwich. You have a sandwich too."

Namaste!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Boy, I know exactly where you are coming from. Wasted food is a real touch-point for me. I've lived in and visited countries where people have no options about what they will eat that day. Not to start a debate, but food seems to follow the same mentality of the other excessive abundances in the US. I want to teach my dd conservation in all aspects of life and that DEFINITELY extends to not wasting food.

So many people say that they don't want to FORCE their kids to eat, but I think it's important to teach kids to really think things through before requesting something or discarding food. It can easily be refrigerated and heated later as a snack. About 100 billion pounds of food is wasted in the US each year. That's staggering!! And, hopefully it makes people think.

<Stepping off of my soapbox>









We try to do small portions. When that doesn't work, if someone else won't eat the food, we put it in the fridge and dd must finish it when she's hungry. We talk a lot about conservation, recycling, reusing what we can and not wasting. She's only 4 (next month), but I can see it getting through. She will often ask to finish her lunch on the way home from school so that her lunch isn't wasted. (Her lunch time is short and she usually can't finish her food in time.)


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
Boy, I know exactly where you are coming from. Wasted food is a real touch-point for me. I've lived in and visited countries where people have no options about what they will eat that day. Not to start a debate, but food seems to follow the same mentality of the other excessive abundances in the US. I want to teach my dd conservation in all aspects of life and that DEFINITELY extends to not wasting food.









:

I'm glad someone else brought this up. I wanted to but I didn't feel comfortable doing it. Americans have this idea that we are entitled by our comparative wealth and privilege to be finicky and fickle. My Ethiopian son and daughter either ate what was served or didn't eat, and personally, I see NOTHING wrong with this. "Needing" to have lots of food choices and saying it's not healthy to eat food that isn't totally appealing "right now" are products of extravagence. Wasting food is a a cultural artefact that I don't wish to pass on to my kids.

Namaste!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Wasting food is a a cultural artefact that I don't wish to pass on to my kids.Namaste!

Well said!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*







:

I'm glad someone else brought this up. I wanted to but I didn't feel comfortable doing it. Americans have this idea that we are entitled by our comparative wealth and privilege to be finicky and fickle. My Ethiopian son and daughter either ate what was served or didn't eat, and personally, I see NOTHING wrong with this. "Needing" to have lots of food choices and saying it's not healthy to eat food that isn't totally appealing "right now" are products of extravagence. Wasting food is a a cultural artefact that I don't wish to pass on to my kids.

Namaste!


I totally agree with you. In our house, they have to at least TRY what is served. I am not a short order cook. My oldest will try to get sweets (we keep very little of that around) for a snack, claiming he is SOOOOO hungry. I tell him that there are apples on the table and bananas, and if he is that hungry he can have one. But OH NO. My thing is, if you are really hungry, you will eat the apple if it is there and he DOES like apples. The only time I make an alternate meal for the kids, if it is something I KNOW they do not like and me and DH just want to have it, like fajitas or something extra spicy. But most nights, it is "eat it or leave it". Even our 1 yr old is getting adventurous and loves most things I cook, cut up small of course. He makes the most of those 6 teeth, LOL.

About the sandwich. Next time, I would tell DS that he can have his own sandwich, and that is it. If he refuses, well, he will eat at the next meal. A refused meal or two is NOT going to hurt a child.


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## Bufomander (Feb 6, 2005)

i, too, really want to teach dd good things about food use.

she's nearly 22 months. i really like the rule about if you ask for it, you have to eat it before you get something else. (in addition to the issue of wasting food, i think it's tied to learning the importance of words.. i don't know how to explain what i mean, so i'll move on.)

but i find it difficult to do that at this exact stage (i try to do lots of small portions, though), simply because i'm not confident that she always understands what i'm saying (ie, "you asked for that pita bread with cheese, so i don't want to warm up the pasta for you, i'd like you to eat what you asked for...)

my question is: for those of you that implement some form of this rule in your house, at what age did you start being firm about it?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
We've talked about food, and how food costs money, and if we waste money on food then we don't have money for fun things like toys and the like, but ds either doesn't get it or doesn't care.

I went back and re-read your post and I had another comment. I'm not being critical here, but as a conservation advocate, I wanted to say that perhaps you can teach him to not waste because it's simply wasteful. Not because there won't be money for toys (although I realize that seems to be a natural motivator), but because it's our responsibility to not be wasteful. Just a thought.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bufomander*
my question is: for those of you that implement some form of this rule in your house, at what age did you start being firm about it?

Dd will be 4 in a few weeks. It is a hard and fast RULE that we do not waste in general, but it's not perfect in practice. Dd and I frequently put things in the recycling bin together, explaining all along about what we are doing. She has been to a "reduce, reuse, recycle" program at the library. I think she really understands what we are doing, but not yet WHY. The other thing we do is to talk about how we can recycle her food if she doesn't want to eat it. For example... a turkey sandwich... you can toast the bread in the oven, turn it into breadcrumbs, and make (from scratch, of course), turkey with mac and cheese, baked off with the breadcrumbs on top. I've never actually done that, but this would be something we'd at least TALK about. So, we're not yet FIRM about it, but we try in every way we can.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

ITA with OTF. I won't force my child to eat the sandwich now, but if he wants a snack or something different to eat he has to finish what's in front of him first. There have been many times where he has said my belly's full from dinner (and only eaten a small scoop of pasta) but then he'll eat three bowls of ice cream. We don't waste food in this house.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do think it is appropriate to teach children that wasting food is not very responsible. We discuss this with dd on very simple terms. But I do not think forcing a child to eat anything is OK. Kids can learn the message without being forced to eat something. I like the idea of finding other ways to make the food useful....composting, feeding to cat/dog, etc.....


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I serve very small portions to little ones. I also don't have a prblem with wrapping it up and taking it in the car with us, or using it for a snack later. There is a whole lot of room inbetween "eat this or you get nothing else" and "Let's throw this entire sandwich in the trash, because who cares"

Storage/freezing aren't dirty words, afer all. You would also be surprised at what leftovers a hungry child stuck in traffic, or waiting for a sibling to finish gymnastics class , will eat.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
There is a whole lot of room inbetween "eat this or you get nothing else" and "Let's throw this entire sandwich in the trash, because who cares"









I think it takes lots of time and patients to teach values. They are not learned by being forced to do something, but by example-- through the messages we give every day in the way we live. I give small children small portions. We save leftovers for later and talk about not being wasteful (not just with food). But I would never say a child _had_ to eat everything they requested. I just don't think forcing an issue is the best way to learn. The child is likely to focus on the unpleasantness of being forced, rather than the value you are trying to pass along.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
I went back and re-read your post and I had another comment. I'm not being critical here, but as a conservation advocate, I wanted to say that perhaps you can teach him to not waste because it's simply wasteful. Not because there won't be money for toys (although I realize that seems to be a natural motivator), but because it's our responsibility to not be wasteful. Just a thought.









Oh, we most definitely have talked about the responsibility of not wasting food. It just didn't seem to be sinking in for ds - after all, all he sees is an overabundance of food all around him. And I haven't wanted to get too heavy about the whole "other people don't have enough food" issue because it feels a little too deep for him right now. He gets very upset about people being hurt or sick, so I don't want to introduce confused hurt feelings into the picture. So I tried to go the route of wasted food=wasted opportunity to do fun stuff.

And I guess I wasn't totally clear in my OP - when I said "force" I don't mean physically forcing it into his mouth or making him sit at the table until he ate it. I meant not fixing him any other food until that was eaten. But I got off easy, as here is what happened: About 15 minutes after I wrote this post, he asked for some oatmeal. I explained to him that he still had the turkey sandwich from earlier, and that I was disappointed that he tore it up instead of eating it. He went ahead and ate it without complaint, and then I made him some oatmeal.

I'm still not sure entirely how I feel about this. I agree with both sides - I agree that it's important to teach respect for food and instill responsibility to not waste it unnecessarily, but I also firmly believe in following a body's hunger cues. We do have an overabundance of food, and we do have those choices - that is a luxury that he is growing up with. I just want him to understand that it is a privilege and a luxury.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Oh, we most definitely have talked about the responsibility of not wasting food. It just didn't seem to be sinking in for ds - after all, all he sees is an overabundance of food all around him. And I haven't wanted to get too heavy about the whole "other people don't have enough food" issue because it feels a little too deep for him right now. He gets very upset about people being hurt or sick, so I don't want to introduce confused hurt feelings into the picture. So I tried to go the route of wasted food=wasted opportunity to do fun stuff.

And I guess I wasn't totally clear in my OP - when I said "force" I don't mean physically forcing it into his mouth or making him sit at the table until he ate it. I meant not fixing him any other food until that was eaten. But I got off easy, as here is what happened: About 15 minutes after I wrote this post, he asked for some oatmeal. I explained to him that he still had the turkey sandwich from earlier, and that I was disappointed that he tore it up instead of eating it. He went ahead and ate it without complaint, and then I made him some oatmeal.

I'm still not sure entirely how I feel about this. I agree with both sides - I agree that it's important to teach respect for food and instill responsibility to not waste it unnecessarily, but I also firmly believe in following a body's hunger cues. We do have an overabundance of food, and we do have those choices - that is a luxury that he is growing up with. I just want him to understand that it is a privilege and a luxury.


Not sure why you are not discussing the many pp's who suggested just giving him VERY tiny portions at a time. (like 1/6 of a sandwhich).

Why would this not give you the best of both worlds. Very little waste if he did not eat it. Un-messed with food left over. No having to tell him that he must eat it to get someithing else???????????????????


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

just wanted to chime in, I also really hate wasting food. I state this all the time to my kids "We dont waste food"...lol... What I do is #1, the kids are asked to try everything... ds (4) has been really good about this, but recently is trying to tell us he no longer "likes" this, that and everything else







, at preschool he eats everything they serve (many things he wont eat for me).. so my rule is, you eat some of dinner, or nothing else. The kids pick their breakfast and lunch, and generally eat whatever they ask for, dd (2) will often try to pick something else bc ds picked it after having started eating her food.. and I stand fast at eating what she picked first, hten she can have it... it took once or twice and she is really good about that now. If my kids dont eat, I assume they arent hungry (which they arent, sometimes), and make sure htey know when they leave the table, no snacks. They are really good about this bc its a hard rule (never changes) and they dont often bring up hunger after dinner, though they are quite hungry for breakfast







.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Not sure why you are not discussing the many pp's who suggested just giving him VERY tiny portions at a time. (like 1/6 of a sandwhich).

Why would this not give you the best of both worlds. Very little waste if he did not eat it. Un-messed with food left over. No having to tell him that he must eat it to get someithing else???????????????????

Cuz I already said in one of my other posts that I was going to chalk this up to a learning experience, and that next time he asks we will tell him he can't have the whole sandwich. But it's not really the best of the best because he WANTS the whole sandwich, and then I'm feeling stupid denying him food that he is asking for. But now I know that that's what needs to happen for a little while.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
If you don't eat it you don't get any snacks, treats, other food until you do eat it. .....Often at times this was the last thing of that sort to eat, which really makes me upset because to me its like a form of stealing.

Are you serious??

I can't get down with the idea of withholding food from my children or forcing them to eat something they don't like. And the stealing thing doesn't make sense to me. How is it like stealing?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi*
Feed it to the dog or the cat or the neighbor's dog or cat? Or take the bread and feed ducks and eat the turkey? Or feed the turkey to a stray cat?

We don't waste food here as a matter of course, but find creative solutions for food wastage that might occur. Like composting. It's another way to recycle.


This is good stuff right here!







Creative solutions, thinking together about it...etc.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
We have had similar issues at our house. Kitchen rules are that if you ask for it, you eat it. If you don't eat it you don't get any snacks, treats, other food until you do eat it. If you still don't eat it, then you will not get served that food again. None of my children now are allowed food from "us", the adults in our home. Often times they will beg for something we are eating only to waste it. Often at times this was the last thing of that sort to eat, which really makes me upset because to me its like a form of stealing.


You think your children are stealing from you when they ask for something and do not eat all of it? Just so I can understand what you are saying...

If your child asks for some crackers from you, and you give them to him, and he eats two but crushes a couple of them on the table he is never allowed to have crackers again?







I have searched my brain for a respectful way to say that this post freaks me out and makes me said... this is it.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*
ITA with OTF. I won't force my child to eat the sandwich now, but if he wants a snack or something different to eat he has to finish what's in front of him first. There have been many times where he has said my belly's full from dinner (and only eaten a small scoop of pasta) but then he'll eat three bowls of ice cream.


In this case I would just save whatever he didn't eat of his dinner in a tupperware or other similiar container, and let him eat his ice cream.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Cuz I already said in one of my other posts that I was going to chalk this up to a learning experience, and that next time he asks we will tell him he can't have the whole sandwich. But it's not really the best of the best because he WANTS the whole sandwich, and then I'm feeling stupid denying him food that he is asking for. But now I know that that's what needs to happen for a little while.

I reframe it in a positive way. Make the kid a little wee sandwitch. If the kid wants a bigger one, say "Sure!! You can have a bigger one when you're finished that one







".


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Cuz I already said in one of my other posts that I was going to chalk this up to a learning experience, and that next time he asks we will tell him he can't have the whole sandwich. But it's not really the best of the best because he WANTS the whole sandwich, and then I'm feeling stupid denying him food that he is asking for. But now I know that that's what needs to happen for a little while.


I do not understand how you are "denying him food" when you WOULD under the suggested plan give the whole sandwich, just in 1/6-1/4 segments.

Why in the world is this "denying him food"????????????????????????


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

One more quick thought. Eating food when you're not hungry for it, is more of a waste than composting it or throwing it away. If you eat food you don't want/need it comes out as poo. Which is polution.

Also, eating is a sensory experience. Which is more of a waste, for a child to tear up a bun, or make crafts with homemade playdough or macaroni, or tear up paper?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
I reframe it in a positive way. Make the kid a little wee sandwitch. If the kid wants a bigger one, say "Sure!! You can have a bigger one when you're finished that one







".

I agree. I think making eating and food such negative things is sad and rather controlling. Eating and preparing food is a social aspect of a family. Children need to be able to say when they have finished and not be punished for it (by witholding food).


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Those of you who insist that children eat all of what they're given: What about restaurants? Many restaurants serve portions that are waaay larger than serving size for an ADULT, much less a child's smaller stomach.

What if your child thinks something sounds good, then after tasting it, realizes they don't like it? I can. not. stand. cucumbers. If I order something, and it comes with cucumber that I can't pick out, I won't eat it. It makes me nauseous, and gives me cucumber-flavored burps for HOURS after. I would hate to force that experience on anyone else, especially a child.

WHile I understand the desire to not have food wasted, we DON"T live in a country with scarcity of food. Our children are far more likely to face obesity and eating disorders than starvation. How can they learn to listen to their bodies' cues if they are never allowed to leave something unfinished?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
One more quick thought. Eating food when you're not hungry for it, is more of a waste than composting it or throwing it away. If you eat food you don't want/need it comes out as poo. Which is polution.

Also, eating is a sensory experience. Which is more of a waste, for a child to tear up a bun, or make crafts with homemade playdough or macaroni, or tear up paper?

ITA.

How is it wasted if its thrown in the compost, but not wasted if it's eaten by someone who doesn't want it?









I think we need to be very wary of setting up kids for eating disorders by controlling their food too strictly. I'd rather see my kids mush up an unwanted sandwich than eat it.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
Those of you who insist that children eat all of what they're given: What about restaurants? Many restaurants serve portions that are waaay larger than serving size for an ADULT, much less a child's smaller stomach.

What if your child thinks something sounds good, then after tasting it, realizes they don't like it? I can. not. stand. cucumbers. If I order something, and it comes with cucumber that I can't pick out, I won't eat it. It makes me nauseous, and gives me cucumber-flavored burps for HOURS after. I would hate to force that experience on anyone else, especially a child.

WHile I understand the desire to not have food wasted, we DON"T live in a country with scarcity of food. Our children are far more likely to face obesity and eating disorders than starvation. How can they learn to listen to their bodies' cues if they are never allowed to leave something unfinished?


In a restaurant, you can have the food packed up and taken home. I have no problem there. Of course if the child tries it and then just does not like it, that is also not a problem IMO. But sometimes MY kids just won't even try something and will be stubborn about it. I am not going to give in and just fix them whatever they want simply because they did not get what they want. If I did that, I would be cooking 3 different meals at dinnertime constantly.

One more thing.Who here said that a child has to eat every single solitary drop of food and NEVER leave anything? I think most points here were about kids who do this kind of thing regularly~take food and then destroy/play with it and do not eat it.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:

I'd rather see my kids mush up an unwanted sandwich than eat it.
I see what you are trying to say. However,what about taking the food away instead of allowing them to just play and mush it up? I mean, small kids will mush AND EAT the food, of course. But an older child, like my 8 and 6 yr old are too old to be mushing up and playing in food.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
What if your child thinks something sounds good, then after tasting it, realizes they don't like it? I can. not. stand. cucumbers. If I order something, and it comes with cucumber that I can't pick out, I won't eat it. It makes me nauseous, and gives me cucumber-flavored burps for HOURS after. I would hate to force that experience on anyone else, especially a child.

Well, this doesn't really happen because my kids don't request exotic or untried things for lunches and snacks. They request the old standbys, like peanut butter or carrots or oranges or whatever. If I were giving my child something new, I wouldn't expect the child to eat it if it turned out he/she didn't like it. But at least in my case, I am not talking about out-of-the-ordinary situations. I am talking about plain old everyday situations where the child knows what is available to choose from, chooses something, takes two bites, and decides not to eat it or that he/she wants something different. That is finicky behavior and I don't indulge it. I don't indulge it in myself, either.

Also, I don't force my kids to eat everything they are served in one sitting. I do, however, store the leftovers for the next time they are hungry.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Oceanbaby, I was thinking about this thread more this morning, specifically about how you would feel bad if your son wanted all of a half of sandwich and you just gave him, say, an eighth of a sandwich to start. You felt that you would be denying him food.

I was thinking about my daughter (who is extremely picky) and how she's very particular about how her food is presented. For example, she likes for me to cut what she calls "little tiny cheese sticks" (like I do to top dh's salad) for her. Other times she wants "sheets" (slices) of cheese. Sometimes I forget to ask her how she wants her cheese, and she ends up with LTCS instead of sheets. She gets very upset like this, but I see this as an aesthetic issue and not a food issue. The food is the same whether it's in tiny sticks or slices, and I tell her this. The same for your son. The sandwich is the same whether it comes in small pieces or all together in a half. I really find that I have to draw a line somewhere as to how far I am willing to go in accomodating my daughter's whims.

Don't know whether that helps, but that's how I see it.

Namaste!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
But sometimes MY kids just won't even try something and will be stubborn about it. I am not going to give in and just fix them whatever they want simply because they did not get what they want. If I did that, I would be cooking 3 different meals at dinnertime constantly.

I do understand this concern completely and that's why my kids do need to TRY what I've made before moving on to something else. If they don't like it, that's fine, they can have a sandwich or something instead but they do need to TRY it.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
WHile I understand the desire to not have food wasted, we DON"T live in a country with scarcity of food. Our children are far more likely to face obesity and eating disorders than starvation. How can they learn to listen to their bodies' cues if they are never allowed to leave something unfinished?

No, we don't have a scarcity of food, but poverty is very real and many mothers go hungry so that their kids have food to eat. Wasting food is ultimately wasting money. I agree that FORCING your kids to eat food they do not want is not healthy. But obesity is the result of not making healthy food CHOICES. I would hope that everyone here can agree that it's important to teach kids how to FUEL their body, and not subsist on foods that have no nutritional value.

My bottom line to dd, and I don't believe this will cause her permanent psychological damage, is that if she requests a food, or if I make something for dinner I know she likes, she cannot throw that food away to go fill her belly up with candy. We simply don't waste the food. We do not have a dog. We do not compost. We save it and eat it later or let someone else eat it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Oceanbaby, I was thinking about this thread more this morning, specifically about how you would feel bad if your son wanted all of a half of sandwich and you just gave him, say, an eighth of a sandwich to start. You felt that you would be denying him food.

I was thinking about my daughter (who is extremely picky) and how she's very particular about how her food is presented. For example, she likes for me to cut what she calls "little tiny cheese sticks" (like I do to top dh's salad) for her. Other times she wants "sheets" (slices) of cheese. Sometimes I forget to ask her how she wants her cheese, and she ends up with LTCS instead of sheets. She gets very upset like this, but I see this as an aesthetic issue and not a food issue. The food is the same whether it's in tiny sticks or slices, and I tell her this. The same for your son. The sandwich is the same whether it comes in small pieces or all together in a half. I really find that I have to draw a line somewhere as to how far I am willing to go in accomodating my daughter's whims.

Don't know whether that helps, but that's how I see it.

Namaste!


Exactly for some reason Oceanbaby has in her mind that limiting the portion at a time is limiting food. That is illogical. It may be denying a "whim" but it is NOT denying food.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

In India and a lot of other places in the world, they hand feed their children until around age 3-4 because they simply can't afford to have wasted food. I saw this on my visits to India and it was normal and healthy to do that in that culture. It did not lead to any eating problems in later life. (Obviously, or else the whole country would have eating problems.)

My kids are/were hand fed because they were difficult eaters and had sensory issues/food aversions. It was easier to pop food in their mouths than expect them to sit for a whole meal. Takes longer but gets the job done with no waste.

My dd1 is now 5 and in spite of being hand-fed for 3 years, she's a terrific eater today (most of the time). If you are going to give the food to the child as his own, you need to let him do what he wants with it. Food exploration is normal and healthy. My 5yo still will pull apart a sub sandwich and eat each veggie/cheese/bread separately. If you don't want the mess, then maybe give him a small part of the sandwich to own and do what he wants with, and hand-feed him the majority of it.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
I agree. I think making eating and food such negative things is sad and rather controlling. Eating and preparing food is a social aspect of a family. Children need to be able to say when they have finished and not be punished for it (by witholding food).

Yes, and to do so is just so--freakishly controlling. As in, your child may some day be talking to a therapist about it. Even the notion of having someone else eat a sandwich that someone has been holding and biting into skeeves me out and is going to an ridiculous extreme.

To me, once you present a child with their plate of food it is theirs--and you really need to give up some of that control-- it is their decision what to fuel their body with. There may be trial and error along the way (meaning they did not eat enough, and are hungry before dinner--a good way to know that you need to eat a little more lunch so that won't happen again). But adding guilt into the situation--we don't waste food! There may be starving children elsewhere (very 1950's metality--even my uber controlling mom did not use that oldie but goodie) is just begging to set your child up with eating disorders later.

I think people buy into this "wasting food" mentality because it was what was forced into them as children, and they don't really think about what the ultimate outcome will be in their children. In any normal life there is going to be food that goes uneaten (thank God--if I ate everything on my plate I would be in trouble weight wise) but honestly, that is okay. I like it when I stop eating when I know I am full and don't force myself to eat what I don't need. I would never want to "stuff" my kids with food they don't want either.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia*
Yes, and to do so is just so--freakishly controlling. As in, your child may some day be talking to a therapist about it. Even the notion of having someone else eat a sandwich that someone has been holding and biting into skeeves me out and is going to an ridiculous extreme.

Well, we don't consider it ridiculously extreme. To double your grocery bill just so your child can change his/her mind and throw away what they just asked for is extreme in my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia*
To me, once you present a child with their plate of food it is theirs--and you really need to give up some of that control-- it is their decision what to fuel their body with.

Well, until she is old enough to fix her own food, yes, it is in my control. I don't use it to control her, though. But I don't see this as a control issue. I see it as both a time issue and a money issue. I NEVER fix packaged processed food for dinner. It's always from scratch and takes up quite a lot of time. If I had to prepare two meals, one for us, one for her, it would take away from the time we get to SPEND TOGETHER. I'd be in the kitchen until her bedtime (we eat quite late for dinner by American standards... heldover from living in Europe).

I always see these posts where people say, "Oh, you have to respect children as people." Yes, I totally agree. But it's a two-way street... they also need to respect us parents as breadwinners, billpayers and cooks. To say, "Oh I want a cheese sandwich", then after one bite, say "No, peanut butter" is very disrespectful and wasteful of the time and money lovingly invested. If it happens every so often, no biggie, but some kids do it many times a day. And also, yeah, I think it's part of PARENTING to teach a child how to fuel their bodies. How are kids to know if we don't teach?

Oh, and I don't have the quote handy, but I actually was never forced to "clean my plate". This is not a hold-over from my childhood.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
And also, yeah, I think it's part of PARENTING to teach a child how to fuel their bodies. How are kids to know if we don't teach?


Kids know how to fuel their body. They do not need to be taught. There is a popular theory of how bottlefed infants unlearn this ability from being gently forced to finish their bottle all the time. They then forget how to eat to their body's cues. That is why breastfeeding on demand is so important. Children probably know how to fuel their body better than most adults.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
ITA.

How is it wasted if its thrown in the compost, but not wasted if it's eaten by someone who doesn't want it?










I think we need to be very wary of setting up kids for eating disorders by controlling their food too strictly. I'd rather see my kids mush up an unwanted sandwich than eat it.









I'd rather see my kid not ask for an unwanted sandwich than either of the above options. It sounds like the kid knew when he asked for it that he only wanted the cheese, and he was offered cheese, but still insisted he wanted the whole sandwich. I can understand how annoying that would be. It feels like DELIBERATE waste, as opposed to acidental waste, if that makes any sense.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Kids know how to fuel their body. They do not need to be taught. There is a popular theory of how bottlefed infants unlearn this ability from being gently forced to finish their bottle all the time. They then forget how to eat to their body's cues. That is why breastfeeding on demand is so important. Children probably know how to fuel their body better than most adults.

I agree that kids know better than adults WHEN TO STOP. But I have two nieces who was left to fuel their bodies however they wanted and one is about 350 lbs. and the older one, who is an adult, just had bariatric surgery when she topped close to 500lbs. Their mother had the same mentality.

I agree to respectfully disagree with you and will continue to tell my dd that we fuel our bodies with nutritious food and not empty calories and that the empty calories are nice to eat once in a while, but not all the time. She is 4 and only recently weaned, btw. I always fed her on demand, but if I fed her CHOCOLATE on demand... it'd pretty much be for every meal.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Kids know how to fuel their body. They do not need to be taught.

I don't even see this as an issue of kids learning or knowing how to fuel their bodies. I see it as an issue of kids learning that they need to take responsibility for what they ask for, that wasting is not ok, that being finicky and fickle is not ok, and that Mom and Dad are not short-order cooks.

How is my child not learning to fuel her body if I say, "Dear sweet daughter of mine, what would you like for me to make you for lunch?" and she replies, "Oh, most beloved Momma, I'd really like some squash ravioli," and then, after I have cooked it and lovelying arranged it on the plate with a garnish of parsley, she looks at it and says, "No, I changed my mind, make me oatmeal" and I say, with a huge smile and lots of love, "Revered child, this is what you asked for, so this is what you get"?

Namaste!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I do not understand how you are "denying him food" when you WOULD under the suggested plan give the whole sandwich, just in 1/6-1/4 segments.

Why in the world is this "denying him food"????????????????????????


Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Exactly for some reason Oceanbaby has in her mind that limiting the portion at a time is limiting food. That is illogical. It may be denying a "shim" but it is NOT denying food.

Maya44 - please read what I have actually written. I wrote denying him food THAT HE WANTS, not simply denying him food. I'm not sure why you have gotten your panties in a twist about this - I have already said two times that I will in the future give him smaller portions, and that that is what I learned by this experience. And even though I will need to do this in the future, I still don't think it's such a fantastic solution. He got really upset the other day because my mom made him half of a pb&j sandwich - he wanted a whole one. Since I prefer to let kids make their own decisions about food, I don't like setting ourselves up for a power struggle about how much he can have, with me being the master doling it out bite by bite. I never said that this was denying him food. I said that this was denying him what he wants.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

There aren't many better ways to create eating disorders than forcing people to eat when/what they don't want to, outside of their bodies' cues. I feel as strongly about this as I do about spanking, cio, etc. It's unhealthy at best, damaging at worst.

We also don't waste food. We save most leftovers; some go on the compost pile. But mainly we just try to anticipate (or encourage the child to anticipate) how much they will eat, and explain (as many times as necessary) that the small first portions are so that food doesn't get wasted, while making clear that if that is eaten more is always available. If I anticipate wrong, that's not the child's fault, and I'll eat the remaining. If they anticipate wrong, we point it out and chalk it up as a learning experience -- next time they'll remember (or we'll remind) and take less. We rarely see food remaining on plates.

If it's an issue of the child simply wanting something else, that's fine. We don't get in a tizzy about people not eating what others have made around here. If I make something and no one else wants it, fine, I'll just put it in the fridge and eat the leftovers myself, and next time I want to make it, I will know that I have to make the decision of whether it's worth it to me to go to all that work just for myself. We try to model taking responsibility for one's own choices, and not putting guilt on others if our expectations are not met, when it wasn't their choice in the first place. In this particular situation, the result has been that we don't often do the traditional mealtimes, but prepare food throughout the day when we, as individuals, are hungry. Just like babies breastfeeding on cue. This idea that it's best for babies to eat when they're hungry and how much they're hungry for but for children and adults it's best to eat only at certain times appointed by others and the type and amount of food dictated by others just makes absolutely no sense to me.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
"No, I changed my mind, make me oatmeal" and I say, with a huge smile and lots of love, "Revered child, this is what you asked for, so this is what you get"?

Namaste!
















:







:


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
There aren't many better ways to create eating disorders than forcing people to eat when/what they don't want to, outside of their bodies' cues.

If my kid's body told her to request squash ravioli, and seven minutes later, when it's set in front of her, she has changed her mind, well, frankly, I am not concerned that this will create an eating disorder in her. I am not forcing her to eat outside her body's cues (which just cued her to request squash ravioli), I'm not forcing her to eat at all. I'm just not running back to the kitchen to create another culinary masterpiece for her.

Seriously, I think that we would be hard-pressed to find a pyschologist who claimed that being told, "This is what you asked for, this is what you need to eat" causes eating disorders.

Namaste!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
There aren't many better ways to create eating disorders than forcing people to eat when/what they don't want to, outside of their bodies' cues. I feel as strongly about this as I do about spanking, cio, etc. It's unhealthy at best, damaging at worst.

Very, very true in most cases. There is no need at all to force a normal, healthy child to eat or to finish their plate. And yes it can lead to all kinds of eating problems down the road.

However . . . .

There is a fine balance between letting your child take full control of their eating, and needing to recognize and manage the feeding of a child who has some health or behavioral issues. Because ultimately it's my responsibility to feed my child and make sure she gets proper nutrition one way or another. I do NOT believe in force feeding, but I do believe in getting help if a child is not eating well.

There are an unfortunately high number of kids who don't have normal hunger cues. If the child is consistenly not hungry, or not eating certain textures of food, it's time to get to the root of the problem. It could be allergies, constipation, reflux, sensory issues, just to name a few (in my dd it was all of the above). If a child is not feeling well, the will be unable to recognize hunger, or will make the child have gas or a hurting tummy so they don't feel hungry. It is because some children have problems that are unrecognized, that they are force-fed by worried parents who don't have the experience or resources to get help for them.

My oldest dd has issues that went undiagnosed for years. Worried about her as I was, I gave her liquid nutrition and we followed her around with bites of food a few times a day to make sure she got a healthy balanced diet. As it was, she was very small and thin *because* she did not feel like eating because she had problems. She is now a *great* eater and can follow her own cues, because we have found the source of her problems and addressed them. As a first time mother I was not aware of the possible health issues. I just knew she was not eating, her ribs were showing, and she had some major behavioral problems.

My dd2, unfortunately, turned off her hunger cues because of severe pain associated with silent reflux. I was told over and over she had colic. The whole "she'll eat when she's hungry enough" thing has never applied to her. To make a long story short, we are slowly trying to wean her from her feeding tube. She is capable of eating about 50% of her diet by mouth but if it was up to her she'd eat about 10% and it would all be in the form of crackers or bread. I measure out how many calories she needs for a meal, make sure it's balanced, and I feed it to her bite by bite until it's gone, even if that's 2 hours later and I have to just follow her around and give her a bite during play. If she is not interested, I take her onto my lap and tell her she can play again after she takes the bite.

Believe me, I would rather not have to go to these measures to feed my child but it's either that or have her so dependant on her feeding tube that she will not ever experience what it's like to taste, chew, and swallow. Which stimulates the brain in more ways than I can list here and is necessary for development (just like babies who explore their world through chewing toys and their fingers, etc).

I know that my children are not typical and this post is off topic in some ways. I just wanted to put it out there that if your child is having feeding difficulties, please do try to see if there is an underlying cause.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

Seriously, I think that we would be hard-pressed to find a pyschologist who claimed that being told, "This is what you asked for, this is what you need to eat" causes eating disorders.

Namaste!

Not if it is left at that, for that particular mealtime. BUt we are talking about when the child doesn't get to eat ANYTHING again, until finishing what wasn't eaten, or never again allowed to have a particular food because THAT TIME he/she decided it wasn't really wanted.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
Not if it is left at that, for that particular mealtime. BUt we are talking about when the child doesn't get to eat ANYTHING again, until finishing what wasn't eaten, or never again allowed to have a particular food because THAT TIME he/she decided it wasn't really wanted.

That's certainly not what _I'm_ talking about. I'm talking about a child saying "I want X, takes ONE BITE of X, then says, I want Z." Or says "I'm full" at dinner, then 15 minutes later is there asking for cake and ice cream.

I think dharmamama hit it on the nail. I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tell dd... "I don't care if you're full, you clean your plate!". THAT is what leads to eating disorders. I let dd follow her tummy cues... but if she tells me she's full and doesn't want to finish her meal one minute, I'm not going to let her come back minutes later, get something else and throw her food away.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I think there are twoi different conversations here.

I think it is completely wrong to force a child to finish what is on her plate or not allow her to have any food again until she finishes what she wanted for lunch, etc.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

[It sure appeared that you were saying that you were denying him food:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Cuz I already said in one of my other posts that I was going to chalk this up to a learning experience, and that next time he asks we will tell him he can't have the whole sandwich. But it's not really the best of the best because he WANTS the whole sandwich, and then *I'm feeling stupid denying him food that he is asking for.* But now I know that that's what needs to happen for a little while.


In any event, I guess I don't understand why you "feel stupid" denying him not food that he wants, but rather only denying him the ability to waste it.

Saying to someone, "I don't want to waste the food, so I will only put a small portion on your plate right now, but feel free to have as many of those portions as you like" is to me a very perfectly nice and gentle way to deal with this.

He is still IN FULL control this way of how much he eats. The only thing he is not controlling is how much sits on his plate at any one time.

If he is upset about it, then it is defintitely not about food in any way.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Seriously, I think that we would be hard-pressed to find a pyschologist who claimed that being told, "This is what you asked for, this is what you need to eat" causes eating disorders.

Namaste!











Seriously, I think all most of us are saying is we're not playing 10 rounds of "I want this - 1 bite - No, now I want this- 2 bites - I changed my mind I want this" all day long. I'm sorry but it ain't happening. I'll let my 2 year old change her mind once or twice, but my 7 year old knows that when he _asks for something_ he needs to eat it or wait for the next meal to get something else. He also knows that when he serves himself something like peanut butter, cereal with milk, or other food not easily returned to it's original container he has to eat what he takes or wait until the next meal.

I don't think a single person in this thread advocates "you will eat what I give you and like it or else sit until you do eat it." If you are against portion control and not allowing your child to run through 3 or 4 foods a bite apiece before settling on what they want then this is your thread. Otherwise I think you're preaching to the choir.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo*

I don't think a single person in this thread advocates "you will eat what I give you and like it or else sit until you do eat it." If you are against portion control and not allowing your child to run through 3 or 4 foods a bite apiece before settling on what they want then this is your thread. Otherwise I think you're preaching to the choir.










Sadly, this is not true. A pp said this:

Quote:

Kitchen rules are that if you ask for it, you eat it. If you don't eat it you don't get any snacks, treats, other food until you do eat it. If you still don't eat it, then you will not get served that food again.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
not allow her to have any food again until she finishes what she wanted for lunch, etc.

Well, where do we draw the line on this? My daughter will turn her nose up at the ravioli she requested not ten minutes ago, and I will say, "This is what you asked for, if you want to eat, this is what you get." She will say, "I'm not hungry." I will say, "Ok, put your plate in the refrigerator," which she does.

Guess what? Ten minutes later she comes to me and says, "I'm hungry! I want lunch!" And I will direct her to the ravioli that is at this point less than 20 minutes old.

So yes, I am saying that she can't have something else until she eats what she asked for. And I am fine with that.

At dinner, she can have what's for dinner. I won't force her to eat the ravioli. I'll probably eat it for lunch the next day (unless she beats me to it).

But I'm certainly not going to cook an entirely new lunch just because she's decided to snub the one she just asked for, and I'm not going to let her run into the kitchen and choose something else on her own, either.

And I am confident that I will not be creating an eating disorder in her. I don't control what my daughter eats or how much she eats. She makes her own choices, but I do require that she be responsible for those choices.

I'm more worried about my son, who will eat anything at any time, whether he's hungry or not, just so he can have whatever anyone else has.

Namaste!


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Sadly, this is not true. A pp said this:









I knew as soon as I posted that someone was going to find a quote and prove me wrong. Conceded. Most, not all.









My point was it seems that most of us are, generally, on the same side.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)




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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

If eating disorders were caused by
(a) not being able to eat exactly whatever you feel like eating at the moment
(b) being pressured not to waste food
(c) being expected to eat particular foods at particular times and places
(d) having limited food choices
(e) perceiving desirable food as scarce and/or not always under one's own control

...then the majority of people throughout the world and throughout history would have had eating disorders. Instead, with a few rare exceptions, eating disorders are pretty much limited to wealthy modern societies, where people have more food choices, more access to more food, and more control over what they eat than just about anyone else in history.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

oops


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Well, where do we draw the line on this? My daughter will turn her nose up at the ravioli she requested not ten minutes ago, and I will say, "This is what you asked for, if you want to eat, this is what you get." She will say, "I'm not hungry." I will say, "Ok, put your plate in the refrigerator," which she does.

Guess what? Ten minutes later she comes to me and says, "I'm hungry! I want lunch!" And I will direct her to the ravioli that is at this point less than 20 minutes old.

So yes, I am saying that she can't have something else until she eats what she asked for. And I am fine with that.

At dinner, she can have what's for dinner. I won't force her to eat the ravioli. I'll probably eat it for lunch the next day (unless she beats me to it).

But I'm certainly not going to cook an entirely new lunch just because she's decided to snub the one she just asked for, and I'm not going to let her run into the kitchen and choose something else on her own, either.

And I am confident that I will not be creating an eating disorder in her. I don't control what my daughter eats or how much she eats. She makes her own choices, but I do require that she be responsible for those choices.

I'm more worried about my son, who will eat anything at any time, whether he's hungry or not, just so he can have whatever anyone else has.

Namaste!

jsut wanted chime in, i have done this too, i will save a meal for the oppurtinity in the next hour to eat it, but i wont serve it at our next meal, and also dont see a problem with this.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

Perhaps I should start another thread, but this is what happens in my house. DS #1 gets up in the morning and wants cereal for breakfast. I put the bowl on the table, I don't make him sit down and eat his breakfast, he can take one bite, go play and come back 30 minutes later for bite #2. He may take bite #2 and decide he no longer wants cereal and asks for a different snack. Cereal cannot be saved for later. Do I give him a smaller portion of cereal? As it is he is getting probably 1/8th of a cup. Do I prepare only one bite at a time? I give him the choices for breakfast and he has chosen cereal, he wants the cereal, but decides he wants something else, something different than what he has. I have to balance the needs of everyone in our family, ds is not an only child and there are others, including myself, that have needs that need to be met, and I cannot simply stand on-call in the kitchen for the moment he may be ready for one bite of cereal and then one bite of toast.

On some rare occasions, I like to leave my house. Making sure ds has eaten before we go is imperative- otherwise he'll be grumpy, crabby, cranky, uncooperative. Ds does not realize "I need to eat now because a meal is not going to be available while we're waiting in line at the bank" Yes, I bring snacks. A source of frustration for me is that I have to be a walking vending machine whenever we leave the house, even if he has had an entire meal; god help me if I have to run out on short-notice and only have one snack available. DS will meltdown, cause a scene, make whatever it is I need to accomplish IMPOSSIBLE (this is not a rare thing, it is just how he IS, and he's 4) because I only have a banana and he wants something else, something different than what is available. So essentially, I am trapped at home unless we are going to the grocery store, but even then he'll melt down because I can't feed him a yogurt we are buying or pop the popcorn in the store.

Mealtimes. We do not force him to sit down and eat with the rest of the family. We provide a small portion (I'm talking the bare minimum to be considered a meal vs. just a bite). If we didn't parent him, he would take one bite and then want something different. The only time he doesn't want something different is if he's eating junk (ice cream, cookies, etc), which is pretty much limited to dessert each night, and even then we try to have healthier options (no candy, no oreos, etc). We have dessert, a small scoop of ice cream, following dinner because my husband and I enjoy having a small scoop of ice cream. If I followed DS's cues, he would have one bite of dinner, eat ice cream, and then complain that he is hungry. At this point, dinner has been cleaned up, leftovers put away, and I am ready to wind my day down, get children ready for bed, and, if I'm lucky, sit for 5 minutes without someone placing any demands on me. If I could just take out his bowl and put it on the table and he'd eat it, it would be fine, but no, he wants me to help him eat. Helping him eat goes like this- he'll take a bite, leave the table, run around, keep the bite of food in his mouth for 5 or 10 minutes as I strongly encourage him to chew (it's not safe to run around with food in his mouth). Meanwhile I'm sitting at the dinner table by MYSELF, ready to give him his next bite, which could be immediately following the 1st or 15 minutes later. At this point I am wondering why I am sitting at the table helping him eat, when he's not even there. But, if I put the food away, he'll want me to help him eat because he's hungry. I don't want my child to go hungry, but I am not his butler either. He will melt down if I don't help him (BECAUSE HE IS HUNGRY!!!) and make everyone miserable.

Add to this equation severe tooth decay- for a variety of reasons unrelated to the types of food he eats, due to most likely how he eats. He has had 9 fillings- he doesn't drink soda or juice, candy is for Christmas and Easter only, etc. The dentist had said the fact that he grazes means there is always food for the bacteria that causes tooth decay available on his teeth, and for genetic/unknown reasons he is predisposed to having this bacteria present in his mouth. This makes sense to me- it's the same as walking around with a mouthful of juice at all times. So to protect his health, he needs some parameters around eating.

I would love some suggestions on how to handle this. I feel that some boundaries need to be in place for DS's wellbeing, my sanity, and for a balanced family life.

I feel like this is where DS needs me to be his parent. I try to follow his lead, but just like having to "make" him use the toilet before we leave the house to avoid him peeing in his pants, I have to create some boundaries regarding food and wasting. And as the parent, I also need to teach him that there are other people in his life and their needs need to be respected and met as well.

Is he the poor soul who is eternally longing for something different than what he has, the poor soul who is never satisfied with what he has, who always sees the grass-greener on the other side? Or have I failed as a parent in instilling him the ability to be happy with what he has? Has my offering of choices throughout his childhood created a sense of entitlement to whatever he wants whenever he wants without any regard to the impacts his changing decisions have upon others? Perhaps he is acutely aware of how his quickly changing decisions impact others and revels in the control and power he is able to influence? Maybe he finds it invigorating to fuel his ego by making the way our entire family works 24/7 revolve around his unconventional eating habits? I don't know, but I'm struggling to find a balance and any suggestions are appreciated.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

pjs -









I don't have much advice, but I will say that your situation is EXACTLY why we started establishing boundaries about (while still respecting dd and not limiting) food choices. This is exactly what I was saying before about how along the way, I feel a parent should be TEACHING children that respect goes both ways and they need to respect you as the one who prepares the food.

The only suggestion I really have is for snacks... I always have an assortment of healthy snacks for dd to chose from the fridge for eating at home or on the road: sliced cucumbers, olives, carrots, grapes, sliced cheeses, cut-up pears, peanuts, yogurt, hummus, strawberries are staples here... I could go on. Anyway, I let dd have her choice of these snacks. She gets to make the decision, but once it's made, I don't let her take one bite and throw it away (an unpopular concept here, it seems).

This morning I had to stick to my guns (kind of). Dd wanted 10 more minutes to sleep-in before school, so we had little time to get her into her uniform and get her ready. She eats breakfast only about 50% of the time, but wants a cup of milk almost every morning (she recently weaned and morning nursings were her favorite). I respect that and don't MAKE her eat breakfast. This morning I asked her if she wanted something to go with her milk. "Yes, mommy, can you cut up an apple for me to eat in the car?" I did so, but 10 minutes later when she got in the car she said that she didn't want an apple, she wanted... I can't remember... an orange I think. Anyway, I told her that she had just requested an apple, which I had cleaned and cut for her and that's what she had to eat. But I did give her a small choice... told her that about the only other thing I had time (in the next 30 seconds before she left with dh to school) to get her was a hunk of cheese. She opted for the apple.

Even though it seems like I'm in the minority here, I have to say... stick to your guns. That's my opinion and I stand by it.

ETA: Read my other posts, too, because I don't feel like this post TRULY reflects my personal opinions.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Pjs, does your four year old actually require that you feed him? Like spoon the food into his mouth? Because if so, that is the first thing I would cut out.

After that, I would move on to setting a timer for how long your meal will last. Tell your son honestly that you do not enjoy sitting alone at the table while he runs arund the house. Tell him that your meal will last 20 (10, 30, however many) minutes and that when you are done, you will be getting up from the table and cleaning up dinner and you will no longer be available to "help" him eat.

Also, and this is just me, I would require that your son sit at the table if he is going to eat. In his case, it is clearly unhealthy for him to be eating the way he is, as it is affecting his teeth. Ask your dentist for some guidelines and see if he can talk to your son about his teeth and the effects of his eating habits.

Is it possible that your son has some sensory issues around eating? My best friend is an OT and I remember her saying that holding food in the mouth often indicates a sensory issue. Could you get this checked out?

I am of the opinion that family members have to work together to find ways to peacefully co-exist. The way your son has chosen to structure his mealtimes is not working for you; therefore, it is not working for the family as a whole. There needs to be some give and take on both sides to find an acceptable solution.

I don't think that requiring your son to sit at the table while he eats and feed himself are unduly controlling. You're not forcing him to eat food he doesn't want, you're merely requiring that he eat it himself and remain seated while he does so. How much he eats is entirely in his control, and he doesn't need you to be sitting right there so that he can eat.

Maybe he has some sensory issues that need to be dealt with or maybe he's just picked a quirky way of eating. Either way, things need to get on a better track for you both.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia*
But adding guilt into the situation--we don't waste food! There may be starving children elsewhere (very 1950's metality--even my uber controlling mom did not use that oldie but goodie)

I was thinking more about this. Of course my kids eating what they have requested does not directly help a specific child in another country who doesn't have enough to eat. But I see it as one part of a much larger issue: as Americans, we tend to feel that since we have so much readily available to us, we might as well use it. This leads to an overuse of resources that does directly affect the rest of the world. I view the eating thing as just one way that we can teach our kids that we need to be careful of our resources because they are ultimately global resources and, if we are frivolous with them, there is an impact on other people. If I can teach my kids that food is nourishment, not a toy, and that we should only buy what we are going to eat and eat what we have prepared so it doesn't go to waste while we consume still more of the earth's resources just because we "want" to, then maybe there is some hope that Americans as a whole will stop being so greedy and selfish.

Just a thought.

Namaste!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Pjs, does your four year old actually require that you feed him? Like spoon the food into his mouth? Because if so, that is the first thing I would cut out.

After that, I would move on to setting a timer for how long your meal will last. Tell your son honestly that you do not enjoy sitting alone at the table while he runs arund the house. Tell him that your meal will last 20 (10, 30, however many) minutes and that when you are done, you will be getting up from the table and cleaning up dinner and you will no longer be available to "help" him eat.

Also, and this is just me, I would require that your son sit at the table if he is going to eat. In his case, it is clearly unhealthy for him to be eating the way he is, as it is affecting his teeth. Ask your dentist for some guidelines and see if he can talk to your son about his teeth and the effects of his eating habits.

Is it possible that your son has some sensory issues around eating? My best friend is an OT and I remember her saying that holding food in the mouth often indicates a sensory issue. Could you get this checked out?

I am of the opinion that family members have to work together to find ways to peacefully co-exist. The way your son has chosen to structure his mealtimes is not working for you; therefore, it is not working for the family as a whole. There needs to be some give and take on both sides to find an acceptable solution.

I don't think that requiring your son to sit at the table while he eats and feed himself are unduly controlling. You're not forcing him to eat food he doesn't want, you're merely requiring that he eat it himself and remain seated while he does so. How much he eats is entirely in his control, and he doesn't need you to be sitting right there so that he can eat.

Maybe he has some sensory issues that need to be dealt with or maybe he's just picked a quirky way of eating. Either way, things need to get on a better track for you both.

Namaste!


I think those are great ideas. I cannot fathom not having the child sit with the family during mealtimes. Dinner is the only meal of the day where we are all together as a family.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I was thinking more about this. Of course my kids eating what they have requested does not directly help a specific child in another country who doesn't have enough to eat. But I see it as one part of a much larger issue: as Americans, we tend to feel that since we have so much readily available to us, we might as well use it. This leads to an overuse of resources that does directly affect the rest of the world. I view the eating thing as just one way that we can teach our kids that we need to be careful of our resources because they are ultimately global resources and, if we are frivolous with them, there is an impact on other people. If I can teach my kids that food is nourishment, not a toy, and that we should only buy what we are going to eat and eat what we have prepared so it doesn't go to waste while we consume still more of the earth's resources just because we "want" to, then maybe there is some hope that Americans as a whole will stop being so greedy and selfish.

Just a thought.

Namaste!

A couple of years ago I read a conversation on a message board (pretty sure not this one) about McDonalds Happy Meal toys. Much whining about how they "had" to get them for their kids, as kids insisted etc. Then one mother posted about how she felt that the meals were unhealthy, so she would take the kids to McD's, buy the happy meals, throw away the food and keep the toys. All because her kids "had" to have a piece of plastic worth about 10 cents.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
I cannot fathom not having the child sit with the family during mealtimes.

I too think that sitting together as a familly avoids many of the problems in these posts. No, the child is not required to eat anything but they must sit with the family where (hopefully) there are lively discussions and conversation.

I also avoid the "what if they keep asking for something else" by having our meals on the table and that being IT. You don't get something else. You pick from the choices on the table. My children have never complained about this. They know they will always find something they like on the table.

[When they were younger there were Snacks are placed on a table also before bed. Each child chose one item, or I chose three of four. A typical snack table might have been cheese cubes, sliced red peppers and rice cakes]

There is always something on the table that everyone likes.

So a dinner might be (it was last night







) Chicken, Mushrooms, Noodles, Fresh Asparagus, Sliced Cucumber and Tomato, Rasberries and Oranges.

Each item was served in bowls. If one of my kids had a huge problem with wasting I might dole out small portions, but assure them they could have as many of these as they like.

Some of us had Chicken, Mushrooms Noodles and Oranges. Some had Asparagus Tomatoes Rasberries and Oranges.

I know that over time, everyone eats a well balanced dietl.

We discuss what happened to us that day and have a topic of the day. Last night's was Which American Idol contestant do you think might make it the top 12? The night before was Do you like this winter being so mild, or do you miss the snow?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I too think that sitting together as a familly avoids many of the problems in these posts. No, the child is not required to eat anything but they must sit with the family where (hopefully) there are lively discussions and conversation.

Have you ever had a wiggly high needs kid before? Because it's impossible to have them sit for dinner until they are ready to sit for dinner. For our dd it was around age 4.5. Short of securing her to the chair with straps or something, I can't see how we could make her sit. It's one of those battles I won't force. I see it in the same light as many people force-feeding their kids. If I force my kids to sit at the table before they are ready to, they will learn to hate dinner time. It will become an endless power struggle.

My 5yo will sit and eat dinner most of the time now. My almost 2yo will climb up into her chair, take a bite, and get down again, do a circle around the room and come back for another bite.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Have you ever had a wiggly high needs kid before? Because it's impossible to have them sit for dinner until they are ready to sit for dinner. For our dd it was around age 4.5. Short of securing her to the chair with straps or something, I can't see how we could make her sit. It's one of those battles I won't force. I see it in the same light as many people force-feeding their kids. If I force my kids to sit at the table before they are ready to, they will learn to hate dinner time. It will become an endless power struggle.

My 5yo will sit and eat dinner most of the time now. My almost 2yo will climb up into her chair, take a bite, and get down again, do a circle around the room and come back for another bite.


Yes, my 2nd DD fit these desriptions. But "sitting" did not require sitting quietly. Dinners were at a young age "raucous" singing, clapping affairs. We have a bench in our dining area so she could drape her body over it, kneel, etc...Sometimes she would "help" another family member get another napkin or some spices, which gave her an opportunity to get up, but the expecation to remain with the family and not go off and do something else was always met.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

No way my two year old can sit through an entire meal, and I wouldn't dream of forcing her.

Also, she has several small meals and snacks throughout the day and I am not going to not feed her if I am not hungry.

We do eat all the main meals together.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

Thanks for all of the ideas. We have been slowly and gently trying to establish some boundaries around eating. I don't want eating to become a power struggle, but it obviously hasn't been working leaving it up to our child either.

We definitely do the snack assortment. Unfortunately since our dentist visit, the only snacks DS can have without brushing his teeth immediately after are veggies. I do put out a veggie tray, but his willingness to eat from it wanes after an hour or two. Anything else has to be "monitored" by me so I can make sure his teeth aren't bathing in bacteria (even from eating crackers, cheese, bananas, yogurt, etc), which means I need to prepare/get it, make sure he eats it within a certain time, brush his teeth , and make sure he doesn't consume anything for 30 minutes after brushing (to achieve the full benefit of the toothpaste our dentist has recommended).

As for feeding him with a spoon or fork, if I leave him to feed himself, he'll take 2 or 3 bites over the course of an hour. After an hour, his interest in whatever food he's been eating is gone, and thus wanting a different snack and wasting the food I have prepared for him. The only "efficient" way to get him to eat within a reasonable time frame (meaning less than an hour) is for me to feed it to him. Last week for example, I wanted to go to Target, so I started lunch at 11:00 am. Just trying to get ½ a sandwich into him so he will cooperate while we're at Target. Well at 2 o'clock I had had it. I was trying to help him eat so we could go, and lunch took 3 HOURS!!! That is so unacceptable in my book, but the alternative would have been to bring the sandwich and give it to him when he wanted a snack (and he would have then thrown a tantrum because he wants a DIFFERENT snack) or let him go hungry and throw a tantrum because he wants a snack! So my choices are suffer through a 3 hour lunch or suffer through running an errand. It seems like no matter what I do we're asking for some type of issue related to food.

I have started telling him that I will help him eat during lunch/dinner but once I am done eating, he's on his own. But it is hard to let him go to bed hungry because he can't focus on eating for 5 minutes, and then even if I let him suffer the consequences of being hungry, I'm the one getting dragged out of bed at 5:30 because his belly is telling him he's hungry to make him a bowl of cereal that he'll eat two bites of and then want something else.

As for requiring him to sit at the table, this is something DH and I go back in forth on. I don't think it's unreasonable to just have him sit with the family during dinner, but he is a high-spirited energetic child. If he's "forced" to sit at the table, he responds by interfering with his baby brother's dinner. He'll go out of his way to distract, interfere and just plain bother his baby brother and then we have two kids who haven't eaten dinner. We've also tried bribery- just sit and eat then you can have dessert. It seems to help to give him something to work towards, but even then he doesn't really have the focus or the attention span to just eat 4 bites of pasta. I'm almost thinking in some way he is using food to get my attention. As we are a family of 4, one on one time, while not rare, is not a daily occurrence.

We have talked many, many times about eating habits, sugar bugs, and brushing both with and without the dentist. He does get it, but for whatever reason there is a block between hearing what is said and being agreeable to me helping him take care of his teeth.

As far as sensory issues around eating, I'm not inclined to think it's a sensory thing because it seems like it is the typical thing any child does. Meat always hangs out in his mouth for awhile, which I remember doing as a child. Other times, it really seems like a procrastination or even civil disobedience, unwillingness to cooperate type of thing. It's almost like he can't he focus long enough to chew and swallow, he wants to be doing other things, anything other than sitting or standing at the table and eating. He doesn't do it the majority of the time, but it is frequent enough for me to notice.

I guess what my problem comes back to is if I leave him sitting at the table for 20 minutes to eat however much he wants, he will eat a bite or two and then complain as soon as he gets up from the table that he's hungry and he wants something different to eat. And as his mom, I know that if he doesn't eat X amount, he is miserable to be around and everyone, including him, suffers. So my goal is to make sure he eats X amount within a certain time without causing a power struggle, without creating food issues and without wasting food (because like velochic, I would double my grocery bill if I let all of the foods he is given go uneaten by him). Unfortunately, I don't know how to achieve that goal. I let him listen to his body, but now his teeth are literally rotting out of his head (which I went through as a child and I vowed I would never let my child go through that same horrible experience, it impacted my self-worth, my confidence, my thoughts regarding dental health and dentists, etc) even though we don't buy/consume juice, soda, cookies, dried fruit, candy, and all of the other cavity culprits!

Maya44, I originally chimed in on this post because what is put out for lunch or dinner is it, but of course, if he does eat all of his dinner and wants a banana for dessert, I'm going to give him the banana. I guess I thought my problem was with wasting food, but after having posted about my struggles, it now appears that the wasting food was only a symptom of the greater problem I am facing. I don't mind if we're having salad, pasta, meatballs and bread for dinner and ds only eats bread or eats salad and bread (amazingly enough when he actually does eat, it is very varied, he doesn't ever say "I don't like X", but rather indicates he wants something else) and fruit; it's the getting him to eat X amount within a certain time that I struggle with. It's clear that's what needs to be done for his and for the family's benefit, but even reading now as I type, it seems like if there's anyway to guarantee food issues this is it. But as a family we can't live with him constantly nibbling, brushing, still being hungry five minutes later and wanting something different (on many occasions he's been actually at the dinner table with some food in front of him and complaining that he's hungry!) and we can't live with him being miserable because he's hungry either? Maybe it is a sensory issue?

Anyway, this is what we as a family have been struggling with for about the past year, even just putting this out there makes me feel a little bit better. It's clear there's no easy solution.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*
I guess what my problem comes back to is if I leave him sitting at the table for 20 minutes to eat however much he wants, he will eat a bite or two and then complain as soon as he gets up from the table that he's hungry and he wants something different to eat.

Let him take responsibility for his choices. If he's hungry because he only ate a bite or two, well, you know what? That's what happens when you only eat a bite or two.

If he won't eat his sandwich before you go out the door, well, then he'll be hungry and miserable. It will be a miserable trip for you, but maybe after a few times of that, he will learn what the consequences of his actions are. It's not your responsiblity to make him eat. All you are responsible for his providing him with noursihing food.

This whole scenario reminds me of my nephew, who is 2 1/2 and tiny. My sister's entire life revolves around making this kid eat. Personally, I think that my nephew is secretly laughing at them all: Look how much I can control my entire family! All I have to do is close my mouth when they send a chicken nugget my way, and an entire circus ensues to entertain me!

Ok, I don't really think he's laughing at them, but I do think that he's learned that he wields a lot of power and can make his parents dance anytime he wants.

Perhaps your son enjoys all the attention his eating habits bring him?

Could you just tell him that from now on, eating is his job and you're not going to nag him anymore?

Namaste!


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm going to give it a try.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

pjs...









I don't know "the norm" and I'd never want my kid to be that anyway, probably







, but it sounds like what you are going through is particularly tiresome and frustrating.

And for what it's worth, deep in my heart I disagree with a recurring opinon here about these issues leading to eating disorders. Not that my opinion matters much, but I think it's about self-esteem and self-image - and I'm American, so I can say this, but it seems to be more an issue with media portrayal of beauty rather that seeing our own beautiful self worth inside. You're just trying to establish healthy eating habits that respects the family as a whole and you, in particular, as the one who prepares the meals. I don't see this struggle naturally leading to psychological problems.

Best of luck and let us know if you find a good solution.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*
I don't want my child to go hungry, but I am not his butler either. He will melt down if I don't help him (BECAUSE HE IS HUNGRY!!!) and make everyone miserable.

Yes - yes, you do want him to go hungry at this point! And to not get his way 100% of the time. It is the hard job as the parent to NOT give the little darlings what they want all the time. That creates absolute monsters for us, and eventually for their teachers and then spouses.

It is not our jobs - we shouldn't even strive for it! - to provide them their every whim. The world doesn't revolve around them (well, the firstborns for a few years - I guess it does) and it does them a disservice to let them think it does. There are other people, and like you mentioned, their needs are important too.

In a Love and Logic class, we heard that dinner is prepared and put on the table for 30 minutes. Eat whatever you need to keep you satisfied til breakfast. At my house, they eat or don't eat - I don't nag or ask them to have four more bites or any such thing. Dinner is dinner. Please sit at the table during that time. Some of my kids eat up and ask for more. Some graze and chat. Some barely touch a thing. Can you guess which ones are sitting at the table first thing when breakfast is served? Hunger is a better motivator than mom begging/pleading/hand feeding one more bite each 15 minutes. That is insanity IMO. With the exception of the example given about the child with the feeding tube - I am talking about the 99.5% of kids who will learn to eat normally given a parent who won't be manipulated about food.

I think it is only fair to have at least one or two things on the table that you know each child likes. I like the kids to try each thing but I don't force it at all - as I was a picky eater and still remember throwing up that brussel sprout (I was a teenager).

Kids go through phases of growth where they eat as much as a grown man - and other phases where they eat barely enough to keep a bird alive. You know what? My kids have gone through both types of phases many times and are neither overweight nor malnourished.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*
Is he the poor soul who is eternally longing for something different than what he has, the poor soul who is never satisfied with what he has, who always sees the grass-greener on the other side? Or have I failed as a parent in instilling him the ability to be happy with what he has? Has my offering of choices throughout his childhood created a sense of entitlement to whatever he wants whenever he wants without any regard to the impacts his changing decisions have upon others? Perhaps he is acutely aware of how his quickly changing decisions impact others and revels in the control and power he is able to influence? Maybe he finds it invigorating to fuel his ego by making the way our entire family works 24/7 revolve around his unconventional eating habits?

I think you are WAY overthinking this. It is the power trip/control one. He does it because he can; you let him. Keep it really simple - food out, tell him it will be out for 30 minutes and to eat what he needs to be full til breakfast. You eat yours. NO comments to him about how much time left or doesn't he think he'll be hungry if he doesn't eat now or anything. NO COMMENTS. 30 minutes up, food put away. Yes, of course you will be dealing with a whiny, hungry child that night. You will both survive it. Still no mention of "if you'd only eaten" or making him something else. Be loving and sympathetic and remind him that you'll make breakfast at 7:30. It will not take more than a day or two of this for him to decide to eat or be hungry. You take your control issues out of it and he'll not be able to manipulate you anymore. He will not starve missing one dinner (which HE chose to miss - you didn't withhold food!)

Oh, and to the OP's situation - was your dh planning to eat the other half of his sandwich? If so, it shouldn't have been given to ds in the first place - it is someone else's meal. If there was more, and ds's meal was eaten, I'd have made him another half a sandwich. I think his wasting food is a shame - but I think with little kids, there is a certain amount of that. It is hard to guess how much more they'll need to be full. If him playing with food is upsetting to you, I'd just take it away as soon as he starts. If he fusses, he fusses.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Have you ever had a wiggly high needs kid before? Because it's impossible to have them sit for dinner until they are ready to sit for dinner. For our dd it was around age 4.5. Short of securing her to the chair with straps or something, I can't see how we could make her sit. It's one of those battles I won't force. I see it in the same light as many people force-feeding their kids. If I force my kids to sit at the table before they are ready to, they will learn to hate dinner time. It will become an endless power struggle.

My 5yo will sit and eat dinner most of the time now. My almost 2yo will climb up into her chair, take a bite, and get down again, do a circle around the room and come back for another bite.


Yes, I have a very wiggly 6 yr old son with Autism. If you want to talk about "high needs", I think he more than qualifies, LOL. But, since he and his 8 yr old brother were small, I have taught them that dinnertime is family time. I did not allow the running around the table and "fly by" eating and still do not. We teach them that when it is mealtime, it is time to eat our food, even if we do not eat it all. (I am not a fan of the "clean plate" club) We have even had them there with books and crayons or small toys until they learned. Our mealtime is not a long period of time, so I see nothing unreasonable about children being taught to sit with their parents for a meal. Heck, my boys even help set the table and clear it now.

When you go to restaurants, do you allow the kids to run around the restaurant? I would hope not, for their safety and the sake of the peace of other diners.

I am sure you will not agree and that is okay. I just wanted you to hear from the "other side".


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Kirsten said:


> Yes - yes, you do want him to go hungry at this point! And to not get his way 100% of the time. It is the hard job as the parent to NOT give the little darlings what they want all the time. That creates absolute monsters for us, and eventually for their teachers and then spouses.
> 
> It is not our jobs - we shouldn't even strive for it! - to provide them their every whim. The world doesn't revolve around them (well, the firstborns for a few years - I guess it does) and it does them a disservice to let them think it does. There are other people, and like you mentioned, their needs are important too.
> 
> ...


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

the_lissa said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
> ...


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I still stick by my original comment that the OP did the right thing. We are talking about 1/2 sandwich. What is that, fifty cents at the most?!?! Doling it out in tiny bites when the child has asked for the whole thing just sets you up for an argument about "how much" every time. So he misjudged. I have done it. Maybe he thought it would taste, feel, smell different. Giving him the chance to find out is fine. I very seriously doubt he would ask then rip up every sandwich for eternity. Probably not more than 3 sandwiches. I do not think it sets up a lifetime of food wasting craziness.

Having a child go hungry or forcing a child to eat something before they can have anything else is not a good idea in my book. Neither is forcing a child to sit through a meal if they are not ready. Helping them to do so, OK. My dd sits through meals. Always has from day one. It means breaking out playdough sometimes or whatever, fine. But if she still was not capable of sitting, then that is her choice. Cannot sit in a restaurant? Then we leave and do not try again until she is OK sitting through meals at home. Really not a big deal.

I have had to bite my tounge when dd asks for something then doesn't eat it. It does bother me. In the big scheme? Introducing controversy involving food is just not good IMO. She eats most of what she asks for. She has gone through phases where she doesn't. I have no idea why. But I refuse to make conflict over it. I also do not buy the "you will eat what is on the table or go hungry" plan. There are days when my favorite meal does not seem appetizing to me. Luckily I get to choose what is for dinner so usually I get what I want. Dh is also articulate enough to say "honey, I love your chili but I just don't feel like it tonight, can we have spaghetti instead?". Dd cannot do that. So if I serve what I think is a variety including things I "know" she likes and she still asks for something different? NO BIG DEAL. She is big enough to open the fridge or cabinet and get one of the many easy to grab foods that are available. I really just do not get why this is a problem for people. It is not "disrespecting" me. As long as everyone is fed and happy, I am happy.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Let him take responsibility for his choices. If he's hungry because he only ate a bite or two, well, you know what? That's what happens when you only eat a bite or two.

If he won't eat his sandwich before you go out the door, well, then he'll be hungry and miserable. It will be a miserable trip for you, but maybe after a few times of that, he will learn what the consequences of his actions are. It's not your responsiblity to make him eat. All you are responsible for his providing him with noursihing food.


if i only eat a little bit of my dinner and get hungry later i get something to EAT. if i get hungry while i'm out i EAT something while i'm out. if i don't like something i get up and get something else to EAT. my child gets that same option. they get to EAT when they are hungry. and i agree--it is not my responsibility to make him eat (even if i knew how). i provide nourishing food for my child when he needs to EAT.

if i'm in the middle of something it is simple. they can help themselves to anything. if i'm not busy, i'll make something.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Exactly wolfmama.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

the_lissa said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
> ...


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Don't have much time, but I acknowledge there is a world of difference between a 2 year old and an older child. I have a 7 year old sister, and my mom would never let her go hungry either. I just don't think letting a child go hungry is acceptable, and that there are other ways to deal with it.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*

As far as sensory issues around eating, I'm not inclined to think it's a sensory thing because it seems like it is the typical thing any child does. Meat always hangs out in his mouth for awhile, which I remember doing as a child. Other times, it really seems like a procrastination or even civil disobedience, unwillingness to cooperate type of thing. It's almost like he can't he focus long enough to chew and swallow, he wants to be doing other things, anything other than sitting or standing at the table and eating. He doesn't do it the majority of the time, but it is frequent enough for me to notice.

I wanted to chime in on this point to say that I DON'T think what you are describing sounds like typical child behavior. I am completely unqualified to know whether your son has any sensory issues or not (although it sounds like he could???), but I haven't experienced anything like this, from my kids or any others.

Aside from figuring out if there are indeed any other issues around food, I would also think that making dinner time (or lunch or whatever) a follow a more regimented schedule would be helpful. I would not describe either one of my kids as being highly spirited, but we have had very little problem in having them sit with us for meals. DD2 is probably doing it earlier than DD1 did, but DD2 has been easily sitting with us for meals w/o issue for the last 6 months or so. Many partly due to just the expectation that this is what we do.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
I just don't think letting a child go hungry is acceptable, and that there are other ways to deal with it.

I always thought that if a parent made food available and the kid decided not to eat it, the child was CHOOSING to go hungry. It's not this mom's responsibility to shoehorn food into this kid's mouth. At some point he has to take responsibility for his own hunger.

But then again, I agree with Moonshine that this kid's behavior does NOT sound like normal child behavior, which is why I suggested checking for senory issues.

Namaste!


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

Velochic- thanks for the support. I think my reluctance to create some boundaries in dealing with this issue has been largely due to my fear of creating food issues. I think now, as I'm suffering the consequences of inaction, the fact that I am not withholding food or using food as a reward, but simply it is what it is, food, and it is available at structured times (just like we sleep at structured times) I've been overinflating the whole food issues thing in my mind. Even when I read raising your spirited child, she said not to make them sit, to avoid creating issues later on, etc. As I reflect, I think instilling some narcissitic ideas in DS (that his needs come before everyone else's all the time when it comes to food) is probably worse than getting him acclimated to some structure around eating. I guess too I wanted DS to listen to his body for hunger cues, but clearly we have gotten to an extreme (being hungry only right after dinner is cleaned up and put away).

Kirsten- it is insanity begging/pleading/manipulating just to take another bite. I do need to let go of my control issues. It is a natural consequence, if you don't eat, you're hungry, and if you're hungry, you can finish whatever the last meal/snack was that went unfinished. I have noticed over the past 24 hours, is that I start getting worked up having to remind him to eat or to hurry and finish, or if I'm sitting at the table by myself. Just now I served breakfast and it was available for 30 minutes. I set the timer and told him breakfast is available for 30 minutes then we'll have a snack at 9. I had to stop myself from reminding him the time was going to go off. He probably ate one or two bites (although he's been demanding breakfast since he got up an hour ago) and had a sip or two of juice. This morning should be fun. One of my biggest stumbling blocks to letting him not eat breakfast, is my reluctance to have to be the one to suffer the consequences of his misery from being hungry. But I wholeheartedly agree that parenting means being doing the stuff kids don't appreciate, and I can only hope it won't be months before ds figures it out. And I do agree with you that I know ds and the rest of the family will be better for it, it has been reluctance on my part because the limits involve food, but I have had success in setting limits on other areas so food really shouldn't be any different. I am meeting his needs by providing food and that's all I can really do.

The lissa- if ds is hungry after dinner, but before bed, I have no problem giving him the dinner that he didn't eat. Things have spiralled out of control here because ds will not eat dinner (even if I gave him 50 choices of his favorite foods) and want something different. it doesn't matter what it is, as long as it is different. I'm thinking that always offering him choices has led him to always want something else when he isn't given a choice. I decide what's for dinner, so even if I put 5 foods on the table, I'm thinking he wants something different because he has not been in the driver's seat as far as determining what's for dinner (I make that decision based on a variety of factors, my energy level at that point in the day, what I have planned for the week, what our schedule is) and I feel like ds has ample opportunity to be in charge of his eating, but at some point he needs to realize he doesn't get to make all of the decisions all of the time.

yoopervegan- this isn't happening occasionally, this is happening every meal, every day. He wants cereal, the first words out of his mouth this morning were make me cereal for breakfast- now an hour later the cereal is sitting virtually untouched. Why did I have to stop what I'm doing and prepare breakfast so urgently just for it to sit uneaten? Now because he hasn't eaten (although he clearly told me he wanted breakfast) I am essentially "on-call" because he will be hungry and he'll want a snack, and knowing ds, he will be dying of starvation as soon as I sit down to nurse ds #2. So now I'll throw away his soggy cereal that he had to have but has only eaten a bite or two (and I am not interested in preparing foods in bite portions). I switched from organic cereal to cheerios, because I'm throwing it out anyway. What's the point of even preparing breakfast (and I have rotated breakfast items- bagels, waffles, pancakes, oatmeal, eggs, it doesn't matter, it all sits uneaten, until I "help" him eat it the next time he is hungry)? And this happens with the snack he wants, and then lunch, and then another snack or two, and dinner, and so on. I joined this thread because I am tired of wasting this much food and I won't do it anymore.

wolfmama- I am not withholding food from ds. But as I stated above, he said he was hungry, wanted cereal, I made cereal, and now it sits uneaten and soggy. We go through this exercise everytime he's hungry. I used to let him have access to all of the snacks, but that got to an extreme, he would not eat ANY meals, just snacks. Maybe this is my problem, but I do have a problem with him only eating snacks, because in light of his dental issues it means more work for me. I have to brush his teeth after he eats every time. He is 4 and has just had 9 fillings! He hasn't been eating candy and junk, but his dentist agrees that being a constant snacker allows his teeth to bathe in the bacteria that causes tooth decay all day.

Moonshine- I'll have to do some reading about typical child behaviors, sensory issues and eating. Ds has always been a "good" eater when he actually eats, it's just recently that he's started delaying chewing and keeping meat in his mouth. I have a friend whose DS (same age as my ds) would only eat chicken nuggets, nothing else. One day I had a peach and he wanted to try it. His mom said ok so I shared (we all thought him branching out was a good thing) and 5 minutes later he had eaten my entire peach and then he threw it right back up- I think the texture (peaches are kind of stringy) overwhelmed him. This is what I think of when I think of sensory issues with food, but I guess I'll need to do some reading to see where my ds falls on the spectrum. I agree with you in thinking that having more of a schedule/regiment will help ds. I mean, it can't be much worse than what it is already, and he definitely has a tendency to enforce rules, put things in there exact place, not deviate from the standard, etc, so maybe my laissez-faire attitude is really what's causing the problem- he doesn't function well without a lot of structure and knowing what to expect.

This discussion has been very helpful- I'll let you know how my day progresses.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Pj's

Have you read "How to get you kid to eat, but not too much" by Ellyn Satter?

I think you would find it very helpful!!!!!

It believes strongly in having structured meals and snacks and a division of reponisbility in feeding.

The parent is responsible for when meals and snacks are served and what foods are offered at those meals. The child is responsible for whether he eats any food and how much of it he eats.

It is well reserached and well respected in the nutrition field. I HIGHLY reccomend it.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Okay...I have not read all the posts, so forgive me if I repeat something.

To answer the original question, I don't think a young child will understand about wasting food. They're just not old enough to get it yet. My DD loves to play in the kitchen sink and leave the water running full blast. She doesn't understand that she's "wasting" water. Heck, I didn't understand where water came from (or that you have to pay for it somehow, either by drilling a well or buying town/city water) or that it was of limited supply until I was in high school, probably.

I think if you push the wasting food issue now, you may wind up with a child who eats when he isn't hungry, just so he doesn't waste food. My Dh and I are both like this because we had parents who insisted we clean our plates.

Now yes, if a child asks for a snack (ie., yogurt) and then eats 1/32 of it, you could save it for later and say "You aren't getting other snacks until you eat this." But wow is that controlling. I don't tell my DH what to eat, or vice versa. If I want my DD to grow into an adult who makes wise food choices and doesn't overeat for emotional reasons, I think I need to a) leave her alone where food is concerned and b) try to model the behavior I would like to see.

I will accommodate her wishes as much as I can, and if I can't, I will explain why. She is now old enough to get her own snacks out of the refrigerator or pantry, and pour her own drinks. I let her do as much as possible on her own, even if it makes me cringe AND wastes food. (There is always composting.) I would rather have wasted food than an overweight child who feels like she "has" to eat things.

Just my 2 cents.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:

So if I serve what I think is a variety including things I "know" she likes and she still asks for something different? NO BIG DEAL. She is big enough to open the fridge or cabinet and get one of the many easy to grab foods that are available. I really just do not get why this is a problem for people. It is not "disrespecting" me. As long as everyone is fed and happy, I am happy.
I don't have a problem with it. Just like I don't have a problem with unschooling, public schooling, vaxing or no vaxing. It's just not what going to happen with our family.

I don't agree with "you will eat what I've made or not eat at all until you do" nor with "you can eat whatever you want whenever you want". Like a lot of parents here I'm trying to find the middle ground that's works the best for us. I've decided on, "You always get to choose if and how much you eat and when, you don't always get to choose exactly what." I don't get why this is a problem either.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

maya44 thanks for the book recommendation. I'll definitely check it out.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs*
Now because he hasn't eaten (although he clearly told me he wanted breakfast) I am essentially "on-call" because he will be hungry and he'll want a snack, and knowing ds, he will be dying of starvation as soon as I sit down to nurse ds #2.

This just clicked with me.... Has he always been this way about food or just since ds2 arrived? Since your time is divided? Maybe he is controlling the one thing that he can control, and smart kid that he is, has figured out that it is easier to manipulate parents when it surrounds food simply because we feel terrible if we think they're hungry.

So with his food issues, he gets a LOT of your time and attention, basically dragging it out for hours around each mealtime.

Sounds like (from other parts of your post) that you are ready to try some changes regarding meals for him. I really think you're going to see a quick change. No way will it be months! Kids are stubborn but once he sees you are being consistent and not too involved in it, he will decide to eat on his own. I'd bet a week at the very outside. Just try not to plan much this week. It will be hell but it will be done after that.

I am so curious to hear how it works out for your family! I hope it all resolves quickly and you are on to a fun new problem next month!







It is always like that with parenting I think - whatever I'm stressed about right now will be fixed and something new will come along to worry about.


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