# Leashes for children...yeah or nay.



## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Do you believe that leashes are horrible devices of evil, necessary evil for safety, or a good thing for everyone?

quoting myself so I don't have to retype my view point

Quote:

A word in defense of leashes.

Getting a leash and using it was done out of respect for my dd's needs. I used the harness type (don't like to restrict hand movement) for quite a while to the enjoyment and freedom of both my dd and I.

Beyond the safety argument (which parents who must grocery shop, have two children, etc. should understand) there is the issue of child freedom. My dd did not want to hold my hand and stay 6 inches away from me all the time. It was insulting her personhood and she let me know about it in no uncertain terms. When she was wearing her harness she could be 3-4 feet away from me doing her own thing, talking to herself, being her own person. She really needed and enjoyed this freedom and it showed in her attititude and also in mine. The increased pleasantness gave me energy to be a more fun mama to her.

Nothing is ever right for all people but leashes are a great thing for some


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## AugustLia23 (Mar 18, 2004)

What, on children??

ETA my response. I personally think they look ridiculous, and wouldn't use one on my children. But I can't put myself in other parents places i suppose. So I shouldn't judge.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Good point- off to edit title. BTW this is a spin off from the- threads you would never see here- thread.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

yes on children.

I don't think they're evil, but as I said in the other thread I wouldn't use them. My dd doesn't like me holding her hand all the time either, but if she doesn't stay within an appropriate distance from me or come when called then she either has to hold my hand or be carried. She's actually pretty good about it now, she's had a few tantrums about it but learned quickly. My problem, as I stated in the other thread, with leashes is that they don't teach children boundaries. Once the leash comes off they could run off. To me that's like being extremely strict with your child, spanking them, being overcontrolling etc and then when they are out of your sight they rebel and do whatever they want. I think my goal as a parent is to guide my daughter so she can make the right choices whether I'm there or not. If I used tools like leashes or spanking(not that they're the same, spanking is much worse) she wouldn't learn self discipline and control.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

btw I can't vote on your poll. I don't think they're evil and I don't think they're wonderful either.


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

My mum used a harness for my younger sister, it was great in the sense that she was never out of sight but as soon as the harness was off so was she. It just looks so degrading to me. I used to work with mentally disabled adults who had the mental age of 2 year olds imagine if I had put one of them on a leash!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

DM- did you cover the electrical outlets in your house or did you leave them all exposed so you could physically teach her the boundries?


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

When I see children always being held or kept within a foot of parents it looks repressive and stifling to me. ((((shrug))))

To clarify AGAIN for any newcomers- I am referring to children who are being held against their will and are requesting freedom of movement and are not being given it.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

I can't be there watching her like a hawk 24/7 in the house, so yes I covered the outlets and did other baby proofing. When we're outside I am watching the entire time though

My child is not always within a foot of me. When we walk from the house to the car she is as much as 5-10 feet away from me sometimes in the yard, not far enough to be able to outrun me though. If we're crossing the street though she has to hold my hand. Carrying your child all the time is stifling? Do you really belong on this board if you believe that?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Never used one myself but I think they can be great. There are photos of my parents touring Europe with my brothers and me. 4 kids under 7 yrs. They have a harness on my toddler brother. He almost fell into the gondolla before they decided to buy it.
I think I would get one of those bracelets with a plastic coil. We could both wear a bracelet and it would be even. I see it as a safe thing to use if you expect to be in a large crowded, outdoor event.
Those with more than one child would probably have an easier time envisioning the use of a harness or wrist coil.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I just tie a long scarf around DD's wrist and around my belt loop. It's about five feet long. DD (two in august) simply refuses to hold my hand while walking. so, the "leash" it is.

The *only* comments I've gotten were from several little old ladies at the farmers' market who commented on some variation of "oh boy, you must have a runner, huh!" and commiserated with me about the joys of toddlerdom.


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## shaywyn (Jul 3, 2004)

I voted Horrible......

However, that was my rigid opinion for many years. I still am very uncomfortable with the idea, but I can see families with more than one very small child, twins, etc. using them. And if it makes a mama feel safer, then who am I to judge? I also don't flip out over someone's choice to use them, just seems horrible to me for _mine_


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
When I see children always being held or kept within a foot of parents it looks repressive and stifling to me. ((((shrug))))










I carry my dd most of the time we are out, and other times she usually stays close to me.
Funny that what I think is securely attached you see as being stifling.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I can't be there watching her like a hawk 24/7 in the house, so yes I covered the outlets and did other baby proofing. When we're outside I am watching the entire time though

My child is not always within a foot of me. When we walk from the house to the car she is as much as 5-10 feet away from me sometimes in the yard, not far enough to be able to outrun me though. If we're crossing the street though she has to hold my hand. Carrying your child all the time is stifling? Do you really belong on this board if you believe that?

Watching does not equal safe. On a sidewalk 5-10 feet is plenty of space for a child to get into the street. In a store 5-10 feet is enough for them to get in a crowd and be lost.

Different children are well...different. My dd was a freedom fighter from the very beginning. She was almost 2 1/2 when my ds was born and she loved to run and wanted space. There was no way for me to keep her safe without the leash. It grew from there though- she blossomed under that little bit of freedom. Her frustration level decreased dramaticaly and she became a happier child.

Yes I belong here. Not all children want to be held all the time. Some children don't like being held a lot, slings, strollers, high chairs, play pens, cribs, etc.- basically anything that restrains their free movement. My dd is one of them. My ds loved his sling, loved being held, liked strollers, no play pens or cribs for us though.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I used a leash on my ds2 after I had my third baby. He used to think it was hysterical to run and hide when we were out. After the second time that I almost had a heart attack, I put him on a leash. I actually only used it 2-3 times, because he started to relize if he didn't run, I would let him be a bit further away from me and the compromise worked! I guess it depends on how you use it, and your childs personality.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiahnsmum*








I carry my dd most of the time we are out, and other times she usually stays close to me.
Funny that what I think is securely attached you see as being stifling.


It looks stifling when the child is fighting and screaming to get down and have some freedom. Don't we have to balance love of a philosophy with respect for our children's needs?


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Not something that should be necessary for everyday use, but definitely has it's place for the very crowded/busy public place + very spirited, quick child.


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## melaniewb (Mar 14, 2003)

Well, if they work for others and the child is happy, then fine. I tried it with DS at the airport and it was a nightmare. He pulled too hard on it and fell on his chin.







Haven't used it since and never will again.


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## coopnwhitsmommy (Jan 13, 2005)

Hmmm I voted Cool...I always wanted another pet because none of the other options fit. I have seen some parents use them as substitutes for parenting. Hey the kids on a leash I don't have to watch them. And I've seen Other parents useing them responsibly. And I have used one on my high energy 3yr old and just about strangled him as he was spinning circles wrapping the leash around his neck in the process. For me using the Leash is not a good idea. For others if you use it correctly and not as a substitute for watching your children its okay.

On a related note. One of my Ex Step Brothers used to put a dog harness on his 4yr old hook her to the dog zip line and let her go because he didn't want to be outside with her playing/watching. Course all that stopped when he had to explain to the ER Doc how his four year old daughter ended up with fractured ribs after falling from her playset and dangling upside down by a zip line.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
Watching does not equal safe. On a sidewalk 5-10 feet is plenty of space for a child to get into the street. In a store 5-10 feet is enough for them to get in a crowd and be lost.

Different children are well...different. My dd was a freedom fighter from the very beginning. She was almost 2 1/2 when my ds was born and she loved to run and wanted space. There was no way for me to keep her safe without the leash. It grew from there though- she blossomed under that little bit of freedom. Her frustration level decreased dramaticaly and she became a happier child.

Yes I belong here. Not all children want to be held all the time. Some children don't like being held a lot, slings, strollers, high chairs, play pens, cribs, etc.- basically anything that restrains their free movement. My dd is one of them. My ds loved his sling, loved being held, liked strollers, no play pens or cribs for us though.


Like I said, if we're in a street she has to hold my hand or be held. If we're in the store she usually rides in the shopping cart. My daughter is the typical toddler, she tries to push the boundaries and see what she can get away with. She has always been what dr sears refers to as "high needs" ever since she was a newborn. She loves being held though and is generally a very cuddly baby. But sometimes she wants to explore and that's fine as long as it's a safe place to do so.

if you're a slinging mama I really don't understand how can you think that holding your child often is stifling them. I had to check the top of my browser, I thought I was on a mainstream board for a second! LOL


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
It looks stifling when the child is fighting and screaming to get down and have some freedom. Don't we have to balance love of a philosophy with respect for our children's needs?

Children cannot always have what they want. When my daughter throws a tantrum in the store because she want's a toy I don't just give into her cries because I'm worried that other people will think I'm not "respecting her needs". She has to understand that she cannot just run off whenever she wants to. Personally I think putting a leash on a child is what's stifling, you're sending them the message they can't be trusted to learn impulse control.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coopnwhitsmommy*
Hmmm I voted Cool...I always wanted another pet because none of the other options fit. I have seen some parents use them as substitutes for parenting. Hey the kids on a leash I don't have to watch them. And I've seen Other parents useing them responsibly. And I have used one on my high energy 3yr old and just about strangled him as he was spinning circles wrapping the leash around his neck in the process. For me using the Leash is not a good idea. For others if you use it correctly and not as a substitute for watching your children its okay.

On a related note. One of my Ex Step Brothers used to put a dog harness on his 4yr old hook her to the dog zip line and let her go because he didn't want to be outside with her playing/watching. Course all that stopped when he had to explain to the ER Doc how his four year old daughter ended up with fractured ribs after falling from her playset and dangling upside down by a zip line.


omg


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
Not something that should be necessary for everyday use, but definitely has it's place for the very crowded/busy public place + very spirited, quick child.

I agree, I can see the need in a place like Disneyland, personally I would rather use a stroller but obviously holding hands or keeping an eye on them within a few feet wouldn't work in that situation


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## scheelimama (Aug 2, 2003)

I'm actually off to order one right now.







I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately. I've never really liked the looks of them, but my dd is a runner and she has given me several near heart attacks in the recent weeks. I also have two small children and it's very difficult to keep my hands on her at all times. The other day she totally ran out into the road before I could get my hands on her and came within a few feet of getting hit. It scared me so bad. She also doesn't like to be held and doesn't like the stroller. We are going to be in an airport this next weekend and I have to have a way to keep track of her w/o stiffling her freedom. To the poster who said it doesn't teach them boundaries; I don't think at 2 they have the control to have boundaries. At 3 or 4, I could see it as more of a problem, when they are more verbal and should be learning more boundaries, but right now, it is something that we need.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
When I see children always being held or kept within a foot of parents it looks repressive and stifling to me. ((((shrug))))

:LOL

Oh wait, you're serious? What board am I on?







I'm confused!

I can't vote, because while I generally think they're horrible, I'm sure there are children or situations where they might be appropriate. I try not to judge, but it turns my stomach to see it. I think too many people give their children too little credit. It's one thing when they're too small to understand, but when we're talking about 4, 5, 6 year olds, I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous (in most cases).

Using the outlet covers example







, when she was small, I had them. Once she got around two and understood why she couldn't mess with them, I took them off. She's never touched them. But she understood that before I took them off, because I never let her mess with them, and I always explained why she couldn't touch them. Removing the covers was just me saying I trusted her.


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## shaywyn (Jul 3, 2004)

Just want to add that my older dd was the runner child of all time. Don't think that I didn't wistfully glance at the leash an unsuspecting friend gave me, once or twice. My younger baby seems to be less "run with the wind child", happily for mama







She still likes to explore and has plenty of personality but doesn't go flying toward the road at breakneck speed, delightedly chasing a leaf or a bird. At least not yet, hope I haven't jinxed myself







My oldest did this until she was like 5! A leash would look pretty odd at that age, eh? :LOL


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scheelimama*
I'm actually off to order one right now.







I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately. I've never really liked the looks of them, but my dd is a runner and she has given me several near heart attacks in the recent weeks. I also have two small children and it's very difficult to keep my hands on her at all times. The other day she totally ran out into the road before I could get my hands on her and came within a few feet of getting hit. It scared me so bad. She also doesn't like to be held and doesn't like the stroller. We are going to be in an airport this next weekend and I have to have a way to keep track of her w/o stiffling her freedom. To the poster who said it doesn't teach them boundaries; I don't think at 2 they have the control to have boundaries. At 3 or 4, I could see it as more of a problem, when they are more verbal and should be learning more boundaries, but right now, it is something that we need.

my daughter is two, she's learning boundaries. I think they're a lot smarter then we give them credit for. Of course I only have one child to keep an eye on, if I had a few it might be different.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

I think we as a society think of it as a "pet" device, which may make some people feel it demeans our children to use a "pet" thing on a child.

However, when you must be in a large crowd of people, and you may already have a baby in a sling or stroller, and you need to keep another child close at hand, why not? Better to keep them safe and close, imo...

And I don't know about anyone else's kids, but my girls always hit an age where sling or stroller just WOULD not work anymore, and they would wiggle and struggle and freak out, so I had to let them down... however, they all stayed close to me so I never used a leash... but my sil's son? Needs one!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
if you're a slinging mama I really don't understand how can you think that holding your child often is stifling them. I had to check the top of my browser, I thought I was on a mainstream board for a second! LOL


My dd did not enjoy being in the sling a lot of the time- my ds another story. My dd liked the feeling of walking and looking at things without anyone touching her.

Is respecting a child's individuality and needs more mainstream than AP?


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

if your child doesn't like to be stifled then by all means don't use a sling. But don't say that everyone else who holds their child or keeps them within a foot of them is stifling their child. My daughter likes to be close to me usually, loves to be held and cuddled. You said when you see other children being held all the time they look stifled. That is why your remark sounded mainstream. You weren't talking about individual children, you made a generalization.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
My dd did not enjoy being in the sling a lot of the time- my ds another story. My dd liked the feeling of walking and looking at things without anyone touching her.

Is respecting a child's individuality and needs more mainstream than AP?

There's nothing wrong with that. But you initially said:

Quote:

When I see children always being held or kept within a foot of parents it looks repressive and stifling to me.
If you didn't mean that there's something wrong with holding your children a lot, then fine, but that's the way it sounded, at least to me. :/


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I apologize for not being more specific. I was referring to the children who are crying in arms and twisting with handholding asking to do it for themselves.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

My daughter did learn boundries with the leash. I used it at 2 1/2 for about 6 months. Before the leash she was spending her energy trying to get away from me but after the leash she could feel like she had freedom without being in any danger. It fit around her chest and she rarely pulled it tight- I would follow her- keeping it loose- and then redirect her by touching her shoulder if we needed to turn. I only chose it in situations where safety was an issue but she would often ask for it when we went somewhere so she could look around on her own.

Like I said- different children are different. My ds only wore it twice and that was when we went to an amusement park and somewhere else really big and crowded.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb*
There's nothing wrong with that. But you initially said:

If you didn't mean that there's something wrong with holding your children a lot, then fine, but that's the way it sounded, at least to me. :/


She said LOOKS stifling. Poppy, I completely got what you are saying. Bummer other posters are too busy being a$$holes and wondering what board they are on...good grief!


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

I disagree with the person who said 2 year olds arent old enough to know about boundaries, my dd, who is exactly the high needs baby that dr sears talks about, is 18 months hates the stroller, doesnt like the highchair etc. I would never put a leash on her, she has learnt that if she wants to get down and walk she has to hold my hand, I also make sure that every day she gets the chance to roam freely mostly in a safe outdoor setting.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

My 2yo ds has never liked the sling. He also does not like the stroller. Until he could walk (at 18months) he wanted to be carried everywhere, which I did. Once he learned to walk, however, it was a different story. He wanted to run everywhere. Putting him in a stroller will not work. While he will finally sit in one for a period of time, he can and will get himself out when he wants. After my dd was born and I found myself slinging her, while running down the street after the 2yo because he dashed off while I was making sure the other kids were ok (at the park) I bought a leash. It's been a lifesaver, litterally.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
I apologize for not being more specific. I was referring to the children who are crying in arms and twisting with handholding asking to do it for themselves.

My son used to try to twist away from me when we were walking across streets because he was convinced he could cross the street all by himself. This was before he was 2. I don't like forcing my will on him, but I wasn't about to let him cross the street by himself. The rule was that he had to hold my hand or I would hold him. Whenever he started to twist, I'd squat down and gently explain to him why I had this rule: That he's much smaller than cars, that they won't see him, that they go very fast and hurt very badly, that it's my job to keep him safe so I need him to be close.

I suppose I could have put a leash on him but then we would never have had those talks and he wouldn't have learned much about road safety.

That's one of my major gripes with leashes - I think they don't help children learn anything about necessary boundaries. Now, I think you can do both (use a leash and help children learn) but I wonder how many leash-using parents actually do this. You're pretty much forced to when your child isn't attached by some sort of physical guideline.

Also, my son has been walking on his own in stores since he was about 2. We've had incidences, but he's learned the importance of staying close and I've honed my natural mama radar. I can't help but wonder if this, too, would have been less possible if I'd used a leash. It feels like it wouldn't help to foster attachment (ironically enough) as well as letting your child walk unencumbered.

In a nutshell: I don't think leashes are prime evil, but I do find them a little bizarre and I'm not certain they're the best option if your goal is to help your child learn how to navigate the world on their own and not just impose external restraints on them.


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## OwensMa (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:

other posters are too busy being a$$holes


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## skj474 (Jul 19, 2002)

I had to use one ocne when ds was 2. We were going from NH to WA by ourselves and I didnt want to lose him in the airports.

ETA: That I didnt keep him on the "child safety device" the whole time, I did use my ERGO too


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## WriterMama (Mar 27, 2002)

I haven't used one, but I can see that under some circumstances and with some children, they might be useful.

That said, I used to hate the idea of them until my good friend, who had a very strong, 3-yr-old ds with severe autism, told me about her horrible experience in the store. At the time, she also had a 1-yr-old baby. She had her older ds on a "leash" and several women in the store took it upon themselves to make rude, audible comments about her and her parenting. It really upset her that people could be so cruel when she was just trying to keep her ds safe.

I try to remember that when I start to get judgmental about any particular parenting topic. I remind myself that I don't know all the details and I certainly don't know all the answers.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
She said LOOKS stifling. Poppy, I completely got what you are saying. Bummer other posters are too busy being a$$holes and wondering what board they are on...good grief!


Thanks! I think if I didn't have the dd I have I probably wouldn't understand the fabulousness of the leash either. I love AP but believe it is more important to know my children well and make decisions based on their needs. I don't think her desire to be "hands free" was unreasonable- it is just a part of her personality. She is 8 now and obv. doesn't wear a leash but she still shows her personality in new ways all the time. She is very independant, strong willed, creative, articulate, and is not the type to like authority. I don't see this changing and I wouldn't want it to- she is a unique and wonderful individual.

I am not saying the leash is good for all children or even most- but I know there are more children like my daughter who blossom with the freedom a leash provides. I don't think a parenting ideal should get in the way of parenting an individual child.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
Bummer other posters are too busy being a$$holes and wondering what board they are on...good grief!











Damn! WTF crawled up your butt, Potty?? And look who's calling the kettle black! I really can't believe that you said that!!!! Try having some freaking respect here. And go check out that little User Agreement thingie. Ya think?










::sniff sniff:: What's that I smell? Is that a thread closing? Yes...Yes! It is. It's a thread closing and it's not very far!

Kelly


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
I am not saying the leash is good for all children or even most- but I know there are more children like my daughter who blossom with the freedom a leash provides. I don't think a parenting ideal should get in the way of parenting an individual child.


I'm very glad the leash worked for your child. I'm going to just stretch a little and say that there are many mamas here who don't use leashes who have children with personalities like your daughter's (me being one of them). Choosing not to use a leash was not me letting a parenting ideal get in the way of parenting my individual child - it was staying true to my parenting ideals while adjusting my methods so that I could parent my individual child in a way that allowed him to thrive and navigate the world in a healthy manner.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:

Damn! WTF crawled up your butt, Potty?? And look who's calling the kettle black! I really can't believe that you said that!!!! Try having some freaking respect here. And go check out that little User Agreement thingie. Ya think?
I was referring tot he snottiness of the posters who had to "check what boards they were on". Calling the kettle black? My one comment, and a truthful one at that does not a kettle make.

BTW, I haven't violated any part of the UA, thanks though. Perhaps others should read it.

Note how I have not, nor will I attack any individual


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:

Choosing not to use a leash was not me letting a parenting ideal get in the way of parenting my individual child - it was staying true to my parenting ideals while adjusting my methods so that I could parent my individual child in a way that allowed him to thrive and navigate the world in a healthy manner.
I agree.

My personal opinion is that the negatives created by leashes over-ride any positives.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
My son used to try to twist away from me when we were walking across streets because he was convinced he could cross the street all by himself. This was before he was 2. I don't like forcing my will on him, but I wasn't about to let him cross the street by himself. The rule was that he had to hold my hand or I would hold him. Whenever he started to twist, I'd squat down and gently explain to him why I had this rule: That he's much smaller than cars, that they won't see him, that they go very fast and hurt very badly, that it's my job to keep him safe so I need him to be close.

I suppose I could have put a leash on him but then we would never have had those talks and he wouldn't have learned much about road safety.

That's one of my major gripes with leashes - I think they don't help children learn anything about necessary boundaries. Now, I think you can do both (use a leash and help children learn) but I wonder how many leash-using parents actually do this. You're pretty much forced to when your child isn't attached by some sort of physical guideline.

Also, my son has been walking on his own in stores since he was about 2. We've had incidences, but he's learned the importance of staying close and I've honed my natural mama radar. I can't help but wonder if this, too, would have been less possible if I'd used a leash. It feels like it wouldn't help to foster attachment (ironically enough) as well as letting your child walk unencumbered.

In a nutshell: I don't think leashes are prime evil, but I do find them a little bizarre and I'm not certain they're the best option if your goal is to help your child learn how to navigate the world on their own and not just impose external restraints on them.


i totally agree, that's the same method I use as well.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

ok, so this thread looks like its getting ugly fast, maybe there's a reason we don't see this topic on MDC more often :LOL
I've never used a leash/harness, don't really like the idea of one, but I could totally see the usefulness in certain circumstances. Like so many other aspects of parenting they can easily be misused, but they can also be very helpful. As long as you're not using it to tie the kid outside the pub while you have a few....
(In other words, its just like the bouncy or the car seat carrier, they can be useful aides or they can be substitutes for parenting, if you're posting here in the first place you're probably in the first camp







)
A while ago I tried using my wrap as a harness on dd (at home) she thought it was the funnest thing ever. But so far the need for a harness has not come up with her.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
She said LOOKS stifling. Poppy, I completely got what you are saying. Bummer other posters are too busy being a$$holes and wondering what board they are on...good grief!

she might as well have said that people who pick up their babies all the time and don't let them cio LOOK like they're spoiling them. It's just not something I expected to read on an AP board.

Thank you for apologizing Poppy.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*









Damn! WTF crawled up your butt, Potty?? And look who's calling the kettle black! I really can't believe that you said that!!!! Try having some freaking respect here. And go check out that little User Agreement thingie. Ya think?










::sniff sniff:: What's that I smell? Is that a thread closing? Yes...Yes! It is. It's a thread closing and it's not very far!

Kelly


:LOL


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
I was referring tot he snottiness of the posters who had to "check what boards they were on". Calling the kettle black? My one comment, and a truthful one at that does not a kettle make.

BTW, I haven't violated any part of the UA, thanks though. Perhaps others should read it.

Note how I have not, nor will I attack any individual









Personal attacks are against the UA, you called me an a-hole, doesn't matter if you bleeped it out with *'s the message was the same. My wondering if I was on the same board isn't even in the same ballpark as what you did.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
Personal attacks are against the UA, you called me an a-hole, doesn't matter if you bleeped it out with *'s the message was the same. My wondering if I was on the same board isn't even in the same ballpark as what you did.

When did I call YOU an a44hole? yeah, I didn't. I havenot attacked anyone personally, THAT would be against the UA. Thanks again.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Potty, calling people A$$holes while being disrespectful and acting like a, well, you know--certainly is calling the kettle black.

It's really sad when people are so immature that they can't argue a point without name calling.









Kelly

PS-Perhaps you, Potty Mouth, should re-read the UA.

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:*Posting in a disrespectful*, *defamatory, adversarial*, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, *demeaning criticism*, *namecalling*, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law
You said "posters" All posters here are members. Your comment was most certainly directed toward a member.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

ah so you're arguing logistics? that you said I was BEING an a-hole rather then actually calling me an a-hole? Or maybe you think it doesn't count because you said "posters who are saying such and such" instead of referring to me by name? Either way I knew who the message was intended for. There were only a couple people on this thread who wondered what board they were on after reading that message.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Why would I want to wear myself out and frustrate my dd to find an alternative to the leash when she liked it so much?

I could have gone home everytime she tried to get away from me....that would have been everytime we stepped out the front door.

We wouldn't have had any food to eat because no one in the store including me would have been able to stand her screaming and flinging herself out of the cart- CIO?

We would have missed all the nice walks to the park with ds in a sling and dd on her leash.

She was completely verbal and capable of holding long, intricate conversations but she would not cooperate with strollers, hand-holding (except street)- basically on principle. She still has a couple of things that are non-negotiable for her and she will defend herself to the death :LOL .

BTW- I don't really expect moms of onlies or less independant kids to understand but I would like it if you could sympathize enough to drop the judgement and realize that not everyone's reality is the same.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Thank you again for your kind direction to the UA, and again, I have not attacked anyone specifically or individually. If you feel the need to attached yourself to my comment, so be it.

Perhaps you would like to take this to CM as i see we are not making any progress. Cheers.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Poppy, I'm a mom of an only, who is awesome about listening when it comes to holding hands and being safe in public, and I understand what you are saying. I don't think anyone could be anymore AP than listening to the cues your child gives you.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

As the parent of a runner I have to say the chest harness leash has worked well for us. Though sometimes I feel like that cartoon where that huge great dane is dragging the kid along the side walk. dd thinks its funny and loves wearing the thing because she can wander 3-4 feet away and look at stuff rather then be stuck holding mama's hand. I've never had a negative comment and usually have at least 1 mama ask me where they can get one as they chase there toddler down the isle.


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

I haven't read thru all the comments....

I used a leash on my kids when we went to a large city wide event. I was glad I did. We were holding their hands (the hand to wrist leashes) and my kids got jostled and bumped away from me several times. If it weren't for the leashes maintaining some contact , they would've been lost easily. We were there about an hour and over the loud speaker came the announcement they were temporarily closing the doors because of a lost child. ( I should add my kids were too big to be carried at that point... three and five... and strollers were not allowed at that particular event)

It is the only time I used leashes. Otherwise they held onto my belt , I used a sling , carried them or used a stroller.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Potty, please. Don't treat us as if we're kids here. DestinysMama (while I usually disagree with her 100% on opnion related matters) isn't an idiot. We all know who you were refering to.

The UA doesn't say anywhere that a specific person must be named in the "attack". You called a poster an a$$hole (ps-didja read the sticky about profanity, even cutely covered up profanity?), and a poster here must be a member

I'm not reporting anything to CM, she has bigger fish to fry. But you certainly are a disrespectful person who has lost a lot of respect today. Try maturity. Unlike Spandex, it looks good on _everyone_.

Kelly


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Are you saying Spandex DOESNT look good on me? Is that an attack? Are you saying because I'm fat I shouldn't where spandex? Well, I never.

And again, her post wasn't even the one I saw FIRST! Good grief!


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

So you're saying that passive aggressive attacks are ok? Now you think I'M stupid? Come on now. Making comments like "I have to check which board I'm on" are underhanded and cruel. It's inadvertantly saying someone isn't "AP" enough for this board. Now THAT is immature!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
BTW- I don't really expect moms of onlies or less independant kids to understand but I would like it if you could sympathize enough to drop the judgement and realize that not everyone's reality is the same.

Personally, I haven't been judging you. And I'd ask that you reciprocate. Implying that people who don't use leashes are choosing a parenting ideal over the ideal way to parent an individual child is a bit judgmental, don't you think?

As far as not expecting moms of onlies or less independent kids to understand? I'm a mom of an only - a handful only; terribly independent. So I guess I wouldn't understand. Of course, I also nannied for 2 - sometimes 3 - other children, all under age 3 while also being mama to my own son. So I guess I might just understand. Please don't assume that mamas of onlies only have experience caring for one child at a time.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Well, I used to hate the leash/harnesses before I had kids. I thought they looked horrible and I believed that they probably didn't have a good effect on the psyche of the child being harnessed.

Now I have 21 month old twins and I'm starting to re-think that. One of them is a big time runner. And she thinks it's funny when mama asks her to stay close. That's just an invitation to run. She ran into the street once and it nearly scared me to death, literally. Luckily there were no cars around, but what if there had been?

The problem is, she has a sister at the exact developmental stage who often runs in the opposite direction. They hate being held these days, and they often freak out when I tell them they have to hold my hand if they want to walk.

When I'm alone I can't take them out anywhere anymore because I can't handle both of them. So yeah, I'm seriously thinking about getting harnesses for them. I honestly think they'll be happier, they'll have more freedom, mama will be happier and we won't be so confined to the house.

So if you are in the PDX metro area any time soon and see a woman with identical twin toddlers on harnesses, that's me. Judge as you see fit. I honestly don't care.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Scary thread...







:

Okay, anyhoo....as the mother of a special needs child and the classic "fussy baby" (Dr. Sears' Fussy Baby Book is my personal bible) I just have to say, there is a time and a place for them, IMO, if needed. I don't use one, but I won't rule out ever using one, either. Lots of other moms I know with autistic children say they use them because their children are fearless, run away, won't hold hands, and to top it all off are nonverbal. Slings are not always an option for these kids.

My ds still loves to be carried all over the place, thank goodness, and I love my Ergo and my sling. The time will come, however, when he WON'T want to be carried. And he doesn't hold hands, he has sensory issues with his hands. A leash may very well be in my future. It may not. Until then, though, I'm in the camp that says that every situation and child is different, and there are some very valid reasons to use one.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
Why would I want to wear myself out and frustrate my dd to find an alternative to the leash when she liked it so much?

I could have gone home everytime she tried to get away from me....that would have been everytime we stepped out the front door.

We wouldn't have had any food to eat because no one in the store including me would have been able to stand her screaming and flinging herself out of the cart- CIO?

We would have missed all the nice walks to the park with ds in a sling and dd on her leash.

She was completely verbal and capable of holding long, intricate conversations but she would not cooperate with strollers, hand-holding (except street)- basically on principle. She still has a couple of things that are non-negotiable for her and she will defend herself to the death :LOL .

BTW- I don't really expect moms of onlies or less independant kids to understand but I would like it if you could sympathize enough to drop the judgement and realize that not everyone's reality is the same.


It is not that my daughter is completely dependant and compliant, I wish! She has tantrums and tries to throw herself on the floor and cry to get something she wants too. But she's figuring out that doesn't work and I don't give into her demands.She's 2 years old, she's not the boss. If you give in every time a child has a tantrum they will just keep on having tantrums, I have neices who are 4 and 5 years old who still have tantrums because their parents give in every time. Honestly I don't think it's just that they are free spirits or have different personalities from my dd. Different parenting styles produce different results.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
So you're saying that passive aggressive attacks are ok? Now you think I'M stupid? Come on now. Making comments like "I have to check which board I'm on" are underhanded and cruel. It's inadvertantly saying someone isn't "AP" enough for this board. Now THAT is immature!

I did not say that she wasn't AP because she doesn't hold her child all the time, SHE insinuated that I stifle my child because I hold her all the time or keep her close to me. That would be just like someone coming on here and telling me I spoiled her as a newborn because I picked her up every time she cried. That was the whole point of the thread this one sprung from I think, these are things you wouldn't expect to read on an AP board. I expect to hear that crap from my MIL, not a fellow AP'ing mama.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
It is not that my daughter is completely dependant and compliant, I wish! She has tantrums and tries to throw herself on the floor and cry to get something she wants too. But she's figuring out that doesn't work and I don't give into her demands.She's 2 years old, she's not the boss. If you give in every time a child has a tantrum they will just keep on having tantrums, I have neices who are 4 and 5 years old who still have tantrums because their parents give in every time. Honestly I don't think it's just that they are free spirits or have different personalities from my dd. Different parenting styles produce different results.

With all due respect, my son's sensory issues and possible autism are not the result of my parenting. He literally cannot tolerate hand holding. He also can't tolerate the feel of wet sand. Or having his hair cut. Or eating anything green. Or looking at flourescent colors. And just last week he finally was willing to walk in the grass barefoot. He tantrums when he is on sensory overload or when something is terrifying/overwhelming to him. None of which are the result of parenting. Things are not always what they seem, they are not always black and white.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Yeah, the leash is great b/c I get so much flack in public about the duct tape.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
With all due respect, my son's sensory issues and possible autism are not the result of my parenting. He literally cannot tolerate hand holding. He also can't tolerate the feel of wet sand. Or having his hair cut. Or eating anything green. Or looking at flourescent colors. And just last week he finally was willing to walk in the grass barefoot. He tantrums when he is on sensory overload or when something is terrifying/overwhelming to him. None of which are the result of parenting. Things are not always what they seem, they are not always black and white.

I was not referring to autism.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i think they are bizarre and kids look bizarre with the leash


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Personally, I haven't been judging you. And I'd ask that you reciprocate. Implying that people who don't use leashes are choosing a parenting ideal over the ideal way to parent an individual child is a bit judgmental, don't you think?

As far as not expecting moms of onlies or less independent kids to understand? I'm a mom of an only - a handful only; terribly independent. So I guess I wouldn't understand. Of course, I also nannied for 2 - sometimes 3 - other children, all under age 3 while also being mama to my own son. So I guess I might just understand. Please don't assume that mamas of onlies only have experience caring for one child at a time.


I was not saying that parents who don't use the leash are choosing an ideal over a child....but it would have been that way for me. I never suggested that people grab a leash....just that they don't have to be horrible or cruel. My point about the "onlies" is that, although, my dd was independant before my son I could make a lot more allowances for her. I had more arms and time and patience. Most nannies are not responsible for the same out of house chores as moms are (especially WOHM's- which I was) and yes I nannies also and never used a leash but I didn't need to take them all the places their parents did and if we never left the house it was OK. It really is different.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tracymom*







Yeah, the leash is great b/c I get so much flack in public about the duct tape.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
It really is different.


For you, it was. For me, it wasn't. I guess what I'm trying to get you to understand is that you're asking for other people to make allowances for individualized circumstances and, yet, you are making generalizations about other people's circumstances.


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

The only time I think twice about a child on a leash is when I see the parent either a) dragging them behind as they walk at a fast clip or b) yanking the child back from what they should be touching.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Potty, calling people A$$holes while being disrespectful and acting like a, well, you know--certainly is calling the kettle black.

It's really sad when people are so immature that they can't argue a point without name calling.









Kelly

PS-Perhaps you, Potty Mouth, should re-read the UA.
You said "posters" All posters here are members. Your comment was most certainly directed toward a member.


Semantics? I'm always up for some antics.


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## kunama (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't like the look of leashes, but I think they can be usefull. We bought a little backpack thing today that has a strap on the top for an adult to hold onto for DS. It gives him more freedom than handholding with the safety of never being too far away.

He is 14m and 35lbs and it's hard to sling or carry him for any length of time atm (hoping that changes when my toddler patapum arrives though!) and he loves walking. But being only 14m he has no sense of danger at all so we figured the backpack would be a good compromise for us. Also, I can't run after him due to still having SPD pain so letting him run free in a crowded area or near a road isn't an option for me. He just loves to run straight to the road aswell!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
For you, it was. For me, it wasn't. I guess what I'm trying to get you to understand is that you're asking for other people to make allowances for individualized circumstances and, yet, you are making generalizations about other people's circumstances.


This is silly. You have no way of knowing if being a nanny of many is the same as being the parent.

I apologize for any generalizations that I made. I did not mean to make them and I really don't like generalizations.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I thought they were horrendous....until I had a second child. DS is not quite 2 and DD is 2 1/2 months. I sling her, but for those who say "Oh, just pick up your toddler"..try doing that with a newborn in the sling and a fully tantruming big toddler..it's TOUGH (if not downright impossible to do) without the toddler hurting the baby! I have yet to go the "leash" route, but am seriously considering using one for select times - ie crossing the parking lot from the playground (when my toddler never wants to go home and will take off sprinting as soon as he frees himself from my hand.)

It's easy to condemn those who use one when you have only one child....as I said, I did. Just wait, you'll see


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I didn't read all the replies (I know we all love that!)

But I'm with the they're okay camp. We had one that we never used because I never put it in mybag but my dd loved it. She would make me walk her around the neighborhood on it!









I think they are more humane than a stroller and iat is probably a releif to know that no one can take your child.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
It is not that my daughter is completely dependant and compliant, I wish! She has tantrums and tries to throw herself on the floor and cry to get something she wants too. But she's figuring out that doesn't work and I don't give into her demands.She's 2 years old, she's not the boss. If you give in every time a child has a tantrum they will just keep on having tantrums, I have neices who are 4 and 5 years old who still have tantrums because their parents give in every time. Honestly I don't think it's just that they are free spirits or have different personalities from my dd. Different parenting styles produce different results.


My dd is independant but she did not throw constant temper tantrums and was generally a load of fun to be around. There were a couple of issues that were very important to her. I listened and if it was something that I could do for her (safety, health, all OK) I did and do.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
This is silly. You have no way of knowing if being a nanny of many is the same as being the parent.

I know it has its differences but in the context of this thread, being a nanny to many outside of the confines of a safe house is very similar. The point is trying to keep up with more than one child and help them learn life lessons at the same time, right? That concern is there when you're the caretaker, whether you're the parent or not.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Poppy, I think you must have the female version of my son. He learned to walk the morning of the day he turned 10 months old, and was running by evening. Once he learned to be mobile, he hated the sling unless he wanted to nurse and/or sleep (and he had always hated strollers, though he didn't mind the shopping cart). It was uncomfortable for both he and I to hold hands constantly (I wouldn't want my hand stretched up above my head all the time either), and if he wasn't somehow attached to me, he would sprint in whatever direction he happened to be facing. I did what I could to keep up with him, and only used a harness (actually, his sling wrapped around his waist/chest area) when we were in crowds, until I was pregnant with dd - then I just couldn't catch him, and he would get into dangerous situations. My choices were to force him into a stroller he hated, hold his hand (which he hated) or use the harnes more frequently and give him the freedom to explore on his own. he's 4.5 now, and I don't think we've used it in at least a year, probably more like a year and a half. I understand the point about teaching boundaries, but I don't think the harness has stifled that in him. He's 4.5 now and knows not to dart into the street and comes back when I call him. The harness just made about a year and a half of both of our lives a hell of a lot easier, with no negative affects. FTR, my DD who just turned 2 has never used one, and I would be suprised if I ever feel the need to. She's a totally different child.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
My dd is independant but she did not throw constant temper tantrums and was generally a load of fun to be around. There were a couple of issues that were very important to her. I listened and if it was something that I could do for her (safety, health, all OK) I did and do.









:


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

i voted evil, but simply because of the connotations a leash has for me. they might be very useful and the least restrictive option for some parents (no judgment implied), but i cannot get over the likeness to a puppy that rises in my brain when i see them.

i have never had the need to use them, try not to think anything negative about parents i see using them, but do have a negative impression of the leash itself.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
I thought they were horrendous....until I had a second child. DS is not quite 2 and DD is 2 1/2 months. I sling her, but for those who say "Oh, just pick up your toddler"..try doing that with a newborn in the sling and a fully tantruming big toddler..it's TOUGH (if not downright impossible to do) without the toddler hurting the baby! I have yet to go the "leash" route, but am seriously considering using one for select times - ie crossing the parking lot from the playground (when my toddler never wants to go home and will take off sprinting as soon as he frees himself from my hand.)

That's what I was going to post. Well, mine are 21 months and 5.5 months, but still the same issues. I would absolutely love it if anyone had some suggestions. Rather than hearing what a bad idea it would be to use one, I'd appreciate alternate ideas that will keep BOTH of my children safe. The best solutions I've come up with for stuff like the zoo are a)dd sling, ds leash or b)dd stroller, ds attempt hand holding mixed with carrying. I'm not crazy about either idea, so basically we stay home unless I'm with dh or my MDC friends.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I think they can be good when you are in public in large crowds. It gives the child room to move around and explore while the parent (or me as the aunt) the peace of mind that I am in contact.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

My mom used harnesses on my brothers (she had four kids five and under). I used to think I would never use them, I thought it was barbaric.

When my dd was five and going to kindergarten, I was waiting for her school bus, on the sidewalk, with her and 2yo ds (and the other kids and moms at the bus stop). I was holding ds's hand. Suddenly he made his hand go limp so he could pull it out from my hand, and darted into the road right in front of the bus. I got him just in time. I was shaking and all the other moms and the kids were terrified too. It was hard to find a harness (I didn't want a wrist type because I feared he could do the same with it) but I ended up making one for him. No way I was going to risk that again. Even as recently as last year, at eleven years old, I saw him dart across the street *without looking*. He's just that kind of guy.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

eclipse- lots of similarities. My ds loved to be in the sling or held and then loved walking holding hands. He still loves to be carried but I have to give him piggybacks because he is almost 6. I have carried him more than a mile recently :LOL .

I wish leashes looked less icky but I don't know how that would be possible. There were lots of parenting decisions I made that others thought looked icky (CD, EBF, Co-sleeping) but that I knew were best for my family.

My whole point with this thread is to say that people are different and have their own issues and needs- including children. There is not only one path to attachment and for my dd and I attachment was better preserved with a leash- letting her have that couple of feet built respect between the two of us. My ds felt the most attached in my arms- just different people.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I was not referring to autism.

I realize that. What I was trying to convey is that you cannot always "tell" a child is autistic by looks alone. Therefore it is unwise to judge another parent's use of a leash without knowing the circumstances. I'm sure I've gotten some funny looks when dh and I do our rotate-the-baby-dance at restaurants....give screaming child to one parent, said parent goes outside with screaming child and calms child while other parent eats. Inhale food. Swap baby. Other parent eats. People could look at that situation and say we're "indulgent" with our child or whatever for "tolerating" his tantrums and not setting limits. The thing is....the kid CAN'T sit still for more than a few minutes. He just can't. Part of the whole SPD thing. He will sit for part of the meal but when he's reached his limit, that's it...he NEEDS to get out of that high chair and run around. From the outside, I'm sure it appears he is a spoiled brat and we are lax parents.

I'm going way OT here. Just trying to convey that things are not always so clear cut.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

I have used my maya wrap as a leash several times. Mostly in airports or other crowded places where my toddlers HAD to walk or else a temper tantrum would ensue. We must have looked pretty funny with the child on the leash and our bags being pushed in the stroller. Nobody's ever commented or looked sideways at me for it.

I really don't see how a leash is any different from a stroller, bucket infant seat, bouncy seat, swing, or any other device that has the potential to both save a parent's sanity and be overused. The only thing I don't like about them are the wrist style leashes. I wish they didn't make those and only used the chest models or slings. It always looks like the poor kid could yank his/her arm off.

Anyway, I completely respect other people's decisions not to use them. I do think a harness is a valid and perfectly acceptable option for parents who do want to use them. Heck, I never bought a exersaucer. Never felt it necessary. However my friend would have had a tough time getting a shower without theirs. Her dd loved to sit in it and watch her mom shower through the clear curtain. Not for everyone but it worked great for them, and the saucer was hardly ever used for any other purpose, they kept it in the bathroom. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I did not say that she wasn't AP because she doesn't hold her child all the time, SHE insinuated that I stifle my child because I hold her all the time or keep her close to me. That would be just like someone coming on here and telling me I spoiled her as a newborn because I picked her up every time she cried. That was the whole point of the thread this one sprung from I think, these are things you wouldn't expect to read on an AP board. I expect to hear that crap from my MIL, not a fellow AP'ing mama.

Then this thread was started out of a misunderstanding.
If I were to see the example Poppy used I would think, dag, putthat kid down it's obvious she doesn't want to be held! Holding your child against her will is not AP.

Do you understand the point poppy was attempting to make?

I agree with her.


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## elyice (Apr 7, 2003)

Great! WONDERFUL modern invention that saves lives.









I have many many times strapped my daughter up good and tight- happily-
and dared any other mother of a "typical child" to glare at me and my vaccine damaged daughter.I love to educate strangers







I do not even argue this anymore it's stupid. Until MOTHERS LEARN that all children are different, all mothers are different and we all have to do our darndest to keep our children SAFE, there is no point in arguing.

I LOVE THE LEASH! I call it a tether and I have several colors- it is WONDEFUL!
an yes, my daughter looks like a puppy on it. In comparrison, my puppy has enough where with all that he doesn't need a leash. I WISH my daughter had that same sense of danger.







:novax

eta--- ugh why did I even go back and read the other posts?

Edited again b/c I am tuning out the ignorance here.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
I realize that. What I was trying to convey is that you cannot always "tell" a child is autistic by looks alone. Therefore it is unwise to judge another parent's use of a leash without knowing the circumstances. I'm sure I've gotten some funny looks when dh and I do our rotate-the-baby-dance at restaurants....give screaming child to one parent, said parent goes outside with screaming child and calms child while other parent eats. Inhale food. Swap baby. Other parent eats. People could look at that situation and say we're "indulgent" with our child or whatever for "tolerating" his tantrums and not setting limits. The thing is....the kid CAN'T sit still for more than a few minutes. He just can't. Part of the whole SPD thing. He will sit for part of the meal but when he's reached his limit, that's it...he NEEDS to get out of that high chair and run around. From the outside, I'm sure it appears he is a spoiled brat and we are lax parents.

I'm going way OT here. Just trying to convey that things are not always so clear cut.

In my example I was referring to my neices, I know they're not autistic. I don't know enough about autism to even comment but like I said, I can see how there are certain situations where a harness might be needed, in a crowded place, a mom with a lot of kids, maybe autism would fall in there too, but I don't think that they are needed all of the time, every time you leave the house, a normal child, whether free spirited or not should be able to learn boundaries and how to listen to the adults who say no, look both ways before you cross the street, etc.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
Then this thread was started out of a misunderstanding.
If I were to see the example Poppy used I would think, dag, putthat kid down it's obvious she doesn't want to be held! Holding your child against her will is not AP.

Do you understand the point poppy was attempting to make?

I agree with her.

i thanked her for apologizing and clearing that up, yes. you still haven't retracted your a-hole comment though....


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
My dd is independant but she did not throw constant temper tantrums and was generally a load of fun to be around. There were a couple of issues that were very important to her. I listened and if it was something that I could do for her (safety, health, all OK) I did and do.

there are just some things that are not negotiable. my dd sometimes throws a tantrum when she's strapped in her car seat. but it's for her safety so there's nothing i can do, it's not up for debate. i consider the walking thing the same, she has three choices, either be held, hold my hand or walk nearby, it's for her safety and it's not negotiable. I won't let her ride in the car without being strapped in the carseat and I won't let her walk across the street without holding my hand.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Until MOTHERS LEARN that all children are different, all mothers are different and we all have to do our darndest to keep our children SAFE, there is no point in arguing.
Amen to that.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

and I said this on the other thread but just in case anyone missed it. for the moms who use the leashes that go around the wrist, do you realize if your child jerks away from you they can pull their arm out of it's socket? it's called nurse's elbow and it's extremely painful.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

There's no neutral option.

"I don't use them but I don't care if you want to."


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

I know, don't you just love the way the pole was set up? three choices for yay, one choice for nay :LOL


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
i thanked her for apologizing and clearing that up, yes. you still haven't retracted your a-hole comment though....

I'm not sure I will either. I think the comments were a-holish.

Also the Potty-Mouth remark? really cute. So how is it that when someone perceives themselves as being attacked they can call the presumed attacker an attacker and then go on to use insults. What does THAT mean


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
and I said this on the other thread but just in case anyone missed it. for the moms who use the leashes that go around the wrist, do you realize if your child jerks away from you they can pull their arm out of it's socket? it's called nurse's elbow and it's extremely painful.

I don't use a leash, but couldn't this happen just as easily when a toddler decides he (or she) doesn't want to hold hands anymore and throws himself (or herself) to the ground? My ds does this. I used to just lean down with him, but then my infant almost toppled out of the sling.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

yup, like I said I only have one to worry about right now, at the rate we're going she'll be 5+ years old before we have another. With the leash I think the danger is greater though because they're further away so you can't grab them like you described.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

To the OP, I have never used them and they aren't something that would work for my family. But, I don't judge when I see them on others, and figure there is a good reason for there use. For us, when it is a safe space to explore, my kids explore unhindered.The rare occassion when it isn't safe, they are in arms, holding hands or old enough that I can trust them to stick with me. A lot of this has to do with how we have spaced our kids (by the time one is walking, the older child is able to stick with me), the temperment of my kids, where we live and where we choose to go. I don't go to huge malls or grocery stores for many reasons, but a huge one is that I choose smaller places like our co-op where everyone knows my kids and it is small enough and not crowded so my children can safely have free-reign. If we are going to a busy fair, we plan accordingly, dh comes along, and one of us carries our little one on his shoulders until it is safe to roam. If we had a leash, he could easily be stumbled over or stepped on in a crowd. To me this isn't a safe place to explore. In a parking lot it is the same thing. I don't feel it would be safe to let my child roam a few feet from me when there are cars around. My children have ample oppurtunity to explore their world, and the few times it isn't safe to explore away from me doesn't phase them.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

that's what I was thinking with the spacing, but for us it's not a choice, infertility has a great way of spacing kids


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I've used one when necessary for safety. And I never think twice if I see someone else using one... like a pp said - what works for each person is their choice.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Are there any other mamas of twins or other multiples that have weighed in on this issue??

If so, I missed it.

Just curious.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Chiming in way late...I might have thought they were horrible until I met my friend's dd. She wasn't just a runner, she was a sprinter. Seriously, she would be gone before you realized she let go of your hand. My ds has always been this mellow, easy going guy. Always listened, always held hands, never went to far away. Not this girl! She would have done better with a leash I think. Enough room to be on her own, but still anchored safely to mom or dad.


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## Zaxmama (Mar 2, 2004)

well seeing how I feel this thread is a spinoff of me defending myself in the other thread..I guess its time to weigh in.
First of all I voted a necassary evil. but I would like to change my vote to a wonderful device for freedom and safety. I have been programmed to think it was a necassary evil and be somewhat ashamed when I use it... but I will not be ashamed ever again..so many brilliant loving mamas make wonderful points in here for the good use and appropriate safety features a leash has to offer.. and I also understand the people that do not like them ..thats fine..but please do not judge me until you have walked in my shoes..and by no means is a leash a substitute for good parenting..I think of it more as an extension of my arm..but I don't jerk my ds around on the leash..but too many times his sweaty lil slick hands have slipped out or pulled out of my hand and he has gone a running..I also purposely put him in sandals and me in running shoes to even out the odds at picinics and such..I generally do the 100 yard dash about 7-8 times an outing..this is not an option when we go to the zoo and he needs to stay near me. he is a big boy nearly 40lbs at 2.5yo, ( too heavy to carry with a bad back) and detests the stroller and the sling..times are a changing for us and maybe one day he will be fine with holding mommy's hand but as of now..he does not want any parts of that at least not for more then 15mins..so if I "force" him to hold my hand I will be judged as the evil mom that is "dragging" her poor child around by his wrist..I cannot seem to win. so you can sit on any horse you please..but I am ok with my decision and my sons safety harness..which btw he adores..he will actually pull it out of the diaperbag and say "now mama"..when he is tired of holding my hand.. and lift his arms up for me to slip it on..yeah I must be a bad mom.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
my dd sometimes throws a tantrum when she's strapped in her car seat.

this is true in my house too. my ds would scream in the carseat, but if we had to go somewhere, he went in it. HOWEVER, if there were another option available that was less distressing for him and just as safe, I would certainly have gone for that. That's why we used the sling as a "leash" - less distressing for him than handholding, stroller, or being carried, and just as safe.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I have one, use it when necessary, and have no problems when people use them. My DD will only hold my hand sometimes, but it makes her little arms tired after awhile, so the harness is a good option for her. She also prefers to walk/run to being held or in the stroller. If we're in an everyday place, I don't use the harness, but in really crowded places, or in situations where I have my hands full (like unloading groceries -- DD loves to run out into the street and it's too hot to leave her in the car, and there's NO way I'm letting her roam free in the house while I onload!), it's a really helpful tool.

If DD protested against it in any way ever, then we wouldn't use it.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadawg*
Are there any other mamas of twins or other multiples that have weighed in on this issue??

If so, I missed it.

Just curious.

I saw at least one. if I remember right she had either used one or was thinking about it.


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## DebraStorm (Aug 18, 2004)

I have a high needs daughter & have never thought about using one on her or my son. No way, no how!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I suppose I always used a backpack as our leash.

I don't like the idea at all but understand how they can be useful in crowded & chaotic areas.

What sticks in my head is the time, last year, I saw a woman dragging her toddler through the store by a leash. She had 3 kids. 2 walked and she literally dragged the other one, a little girl, down the aisle while speaking harshly to her.


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## loveharps (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiahnsmum*
My mum used a harness for my younger sister, it was great in the sense that she was never out of sight but as soon as the harness was off so was she. It just looks so degrading to me. I used to work with mentally disabled adults who had the mental age of 2 year olds imagine if I had put one of them on a leash!

Thought I'd join in on this discussion (me being the younger sister on whom the leash was used)

As a former 'leashee' I would not put my ds in a leash. Like a previous poster said (sorry, can't remember who) he needs to learn boundries on his own, and I don't think putting him on a leash would do that. It also just looks weird to me.
That being said, if somebody is seriously concerned about thier childs safety, and a harness will give them piece of mind, then I could understand why they would use one.

What I can't stand is seeing people use them in places where it is unneccesary - eg. A woman had her ds on a leash in a church hall, where there was no possible way he could run off, nowhere he could harm himself. She just was sitting down talking and the poor kid had to stand 2 feet away from her and watch all the other kids playing.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

What I can't stand is seeing people use them in places where it is unneccesary - eg. A woman had her ds on a leash in a church hall, where there was no possible way he could run off, nowhere he could harm himself. She just was sitting down talking and the poor kid had to stand 2 feet away from her and watch all the other kids playing.
ITA. As someone who weighed in earlier considering using one during certain times for safety (baby and young toddler, "leash" toddler across things like parking lots, etc with baby in sling.) I too have my my views tainted by the misuse I have seen of these. Bottom line, I think (as PP have mentioned) they can be a useful safety device that can be helpful, but they have a great potential for abuse. I remember seeing one woman in an airport with an approx. 2 year old on a leash. She was sitting there, chatting with her friend, not looking at her toddler while he walked to and fro on his tether..that irked me. Maybe she did need it earlier (ie perhaps he was a "runner" like PP described and she had lots of stuff to lug) when she was negotiating through the airport or something, but once the safety use portion has ended, it's time to take the poor kid off! KWIM?


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I have a harness for Talia, though I've only ever used it twice, in airports. Honestly, she got such a big kick out of it. It's a leather harness with bells - I think it was intended as a toy, but I loved it when I saw it at a toystore so I bought it.

I very rarely see anybody using leashes, either the wrist kind or the harness kind. So, maybe they're not so appalling to me because I haven't seen them abused.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
If we're crossing the street though she has to hold my hand. Carrying your child all the time is stifling? Do you really belong on this board if you believe that?

Oh, please, did this really have to degenerate into insults?

Yes, carrying a child who doesn't want to be carried all the time can be stifling. How is it AP to force a toddler who wants to be down exploring to be carried? Sometimes that may be neccisary, but in what way is it respectful of the child's needs and desires? AP is about respecting a child's needs. For a baby, that means keeping baby close as much as possible. Thus, slinging instead of using strollers and other devices. But, a 2 or 3 year old doesn't *want* or *need* to be attached to Mom's body 100% of the time, and it's hardly respectful to force that.

And, in the case of many toddlers, how is it reasonably comfortable? I occasionally sling my 35 pound three year old to keep her from running off on me. She sometimes enjoys it... and other times she fights the idea of being carried. It's hard enough on my back to carry/sling her when she's complacent. When she doesn't want to be up, there's little chance of my keeping her up there. And most of my friends consider me to be a workhorse for slinging her in the first place. I don't think most people could sling/carry a 35 pound toddler for, say, 1/2 mile from the ticket counter to the gate at an airport, or four blocks from the car to the museum, or all the way through the grocery store. I certainly don't think most of us could keep up a 45 pound 4 year old like that.

If your toddler is happy being carried all the time, lucky you. Mine isn't. She is too free spirited. And it's awfully difficult to carry a baby in a sling and a diaper bag on my back while carrying a 3 year old. Add in a car seat and another carry on bag loaded onto a luggage dolly in an airport, and the fact that the 3 year old wants to check out every giift shop in the concourse and go rip open the sugar packets at the tables in the Starbucks, and suddenly travelling with that three year old is vaguely reminiscent of many old Hollywood farces.

Talia was happy with the harness - she loved making the bells jingle. She liked that she could explore, and I liked that I could keep her within a few feet of me. I liked that I didn't have to literally chase her and pray that eventually we'd make it to our gate, or take her by the wrist and drag her crying to get there. I liked not having to worry that if I looked up from her to keep from bumping into somebody or to adjust her sister in the sling, she wouldn't disappear into the crowd just that fast. It's simply not possible to literally keep my eyes on her 100% of the time in a situation like that, and she is a bolter. In the three seconds it would take me to apologize for running into somebody because I was busy watching her... she'd be gone. Heck, even if I *do* keep my eyes on her 100% of the time, there've been times when she's decided to take off through a crowd that I couldn't navigate quickly because I'm much bigger than her, especially with a baby slung on front of me and a diaper bag strapped on back, and I lost track of her quickly.

Boundaries? What kind of boundaries can you expect a three year old to have learned? Go read the GD forum some time. Kid's don't develop impulse control until somewhere between 4-5 years of age. Yes, all that while, we're busy teaching them the rules that we hope they will apply readily some day. But, we can't count on them applying those rules until they're a bit older. Sure, Talia knows she's not supposed to run from me in a crowd. Sometimes she'll even be in a mood to stay close to me. But, do I really want to count on her being in a complacent mood when we're in such a crowd? Sometimes I do. Even though I know it'll be stressful for me, I let her run freely in most places because, as was said above, I do need to teach her those boundaries. But there are certain places where it is simply too dangerous to be working on those lessons. And in those places and with my particular child, a harness leash is a very reasonable option.

I do not disagree that leashes can be abused. So can anything. Honestly, so can a sling, when you consider that sometimes a toddler doesn't want to be carried. Just because some people could and probably do use leashes inappropriately doesn't mean that it's not a great tool in appropriate situations.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Some great posts on here!

Zaxmama- yes, you were my inspiration. I wanted to point out that different tools are AP- what is more AP than knowing your child, listening to their needs, and making decisions based on what can be (safely) done to fulfill those needs.

To the PP's who said they think they are bad because they don't like the way it looks....I can think of some AP practices that lots of people don't like because of the way they look.

To the PP's who are supporting their dislike of leashes with horrifying tales of abuse and neglect....please try to bring something well thought out to the table. I could go to a mainstream board and post a "co-sleeping yeah or nay" and I would get lots of stories of dead babies. When we discuss co-sleeping here we are not talking about ignorant parents who puts tons of blankets/pillows on the bed, drink/take certain meds before co-sleeping, leave space between bed and wall and place baby on that side, etc. I think it is pretty obvious that none of the people who posted that they use a leash are yanking their dc around, using it to keep them from playing, or lazily neglecting their childs development.

I will not impose my will on my dc any more than is necessary and when there is a tool that gives them the space they need I will use it.

It is not safe to carry a flailing toddler while slinging an infant.

It is impossible to grocery shop while slinging an infant and holding a toddler. It is also unsafe (and impossible to shop) to keep a child in the cart when they are trying to climb out. If you need food you can't go home without it. Before suggesting a family member or dp assist...remember that many of us do not have that option.


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## shanleysmama (Mar 9, 2002)

I voted cool tool. I said I'd never use one, then I had my DD. HA! She was practically born walking - FAST - and there was no way I could keep up with her. We had to fly to Atlanta once and I was taking no chances on her getting lost in the Atlanta airport, since I had to keep track of her, her stroller, her car seat, and our luggage. I got PG with my DS when DD was under a year old, and the leash was really handy, since I totally couldn't chase her when I was super-preggo.

I used a harness, not a hand leash, since I heard that kids can hurt themselves if they fall with a hand leash. I got a few dirty looks but I couldn't care less. I kept my DD safe and kept my sanity, and that's all that matters to me.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I never thought I'd use one neither, hated the way it looked on a child...and then I had my DD. She was a runner and came up missing a couple of times. There is nothing more frightening in your life than to have your toddler come up missing.

So I voted a necessary evil.

BUT...I didn't have to use on on my older DS. He stuck right to me (when I wasn't carrying him) and I never had a problem.

We shall see with the babe. It helps to have older "helpers" who help out with him in stores.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

When my older dd was a toddler, she was lightning fast and started walking early. I was in a knitting store once, she was happily playing in the corner with the toys. I looked at a tube of buttons for a split seconds and she was out the door, heading for the [very busy] street. Someone caught her before i got to her. We had similar scares. She had moments where she didn't want to be in a stroller, didn't want to be in a back pack, just wanted to be on the ground walking.
I never actually got a leash or a harness, but I would have. I cut my trips short, and went to the high risk places without her. It was an acceptable solution for us, but I did bring a sling with us with the idea that I would tie it around her chest if I needed. I think slings and wraps are a nice alternative.

Poopy diaper, gotta go.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My oldest dd was very active and did not like to stay by me. Her choice was the leash, sling, or stroller. She usually chose the leash. It was especially useful when traveling to/from and in India where there were huge crowds and she wanted to walk. Once we were walking on a sidewalk next to a beach (that one that got hit by the tsunami) and this family ahead of us had a toddler walking with them, too. Their ds dashed into the street (which included bicycle and motor traffic) and he was nearly hit. I felt even better about the leash then, because Abi started to run after him but was stopped by her leash.

I have only used it on Nitara once, but she's also a runner and I might be using it more often soon.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
Boundaries? What kind of boundaries can you expect a three year old to have learned? Go read the GD forum some time. Kid's don't develop impulse control until somewhere between 4-5 years of age. Yes, all that while, we're busy teaching them the rules that we hope they will apply readily some day. But, we can't count on them applying those rules until they're a bit older.

Right. You can't rely on them to adhere to boundaries until a later age. But if you're just walking them around on a leash, then they're not learning anything about boundaries and, at 5 or so, when impulse control is a little better, they still won't know much about boundaries if you don't work with them from an early age. Take dogs, for example - dogs don't learn to stay close when off-leash by being walked on-leash. It's an entirely separate learning process.

I think that you *can* teach boundaries while you're using a leash, but I also think it's harder because your child doesn't have any need to practice exercising impulse control and you don't really have much of a need to teach when you can just steer them with the leash.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Right. You can't rely on them to adhere to boundaries until a later age. But if you're just walking them around on a leash, then they're not learning anything about boundaries and, at 5 or so, when impulse control is a little better, they still won't know much about boundaries if you don't work with them from an early age. Take dogs, for example - dogs don't learn to stay close when off-leash by being walked on-leash. It's an entirely separate learning process.

I think that you *can* teach boundaries while you're using a leash, but I also think it's harder because your child doesn't have any need to practice exercising impulse control and you don't really have much of a need to teach when you can just steer them with the leash.

First of all, a child doesn't learn *any* boundaries... if she'd dead. I'd rather my child be a little delayed in learning "boundaries" than flat on a road.

Second, a dog certainly can learn to behave off-leash while being walked on-leash. The objective of on-leash training is to teach the dog to walk at heel with a slack leash, the leash is theoretically only there in case something startles the dog and he bolts. A sight hound can be taught to walk beautifully at heel for hours... but released from heel might still bolt after something it perceives as prey. Conversely, a very social dog like a retriever may never learn to walk on a slack leash, but will never get more than a hundred yards from it's master because that's the dog's natural inclination. Similarly, children have natural inclinations that need to be worked with individually.

Third, how do you teach "boundaries" when you're carrying a child, in arms or a sling, or have him in a stroller? The only way a child can experiment and learn boundaries is by exploring and being corrected eight million times. Sometimes that's appropriate. Other times that's clearly very dangerous. I don't want to be educating my child in an airport or on Times Square. I want to be protecting her. I'll teach her boundaries at the local park, or in a small town, quiet mall on a slow business day.

Fourth, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to teach a child boundaries while on a leash. An appropriate radius for exporation in a park is several hundred yards. An appropriate radius while in a chaotic crowd is about two feet. If my daughter doesn't have the impulse control to stay that close in a crowd, my options are either to restrain her or don't take her into the crowd in the first place. Now, how am I teaching her appropriate boundaries for a crowd if I never take her into a crowd in the first place? Therefore, if I'm trying to teach her by taking her in, I have to restrain her. I have tried to chase her through a very crowded place, and she slips quite easily between people's legs and gets away while I'm busy bowling people over and failing to keep up. If I can teach her to stay close by keeping her on a harness and calling to her every time she pulls against it, it's obviously a lot safer and more effective than trying to teach her by chasing her and praying that I keep up well enough to prevent her from ducking into the street. Chasing her doesn't teach her "boundaries", it teaches her that it's a lot of fun to make Mommy run after her.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I would use them if they work, but I found they don't. If a child is so wayward and fearless that they need a tether, a tether isn't going to stop them. I have a 3 y.o. who runs into traffic, bodies of water, off with other families, etc. I have lost her twice at small, enclosed playgrounds. But the "leash" did nothing but make her get tangled up in her escape efforts and make people give me dirty looks.

We play in the backyard now.


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
It looks stifling when the child is fighting and screaming to get down and have some freedom.

Yes, I agree - my ds is an 'explorer' and doesn't always want to be held 100% of the time. He is very securely attached but sometimes just wants down to go look, examine, feel, touch, etc, yk? Sometimes he wants to be held, sometimes not. I don't see that this means someone 'doesn't belong here' just b/c their child doesn't want to be held all the time.

That said, I wouldn't use a leash on him. However, I know a father of twin girls who uses them to walk the twins to the park. They walk several blocks to get there and for them, it is a safety measure. When they get to the park, the leashes comes off. I can understand why he chooses to use it.

I think it is an item that could be overused/abused but I do think there are circumstanses where they have a legitimate use.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

tboroson- nice post addressing the boundaries issue!

I would like to add from BTDT exp- my dd learned boundaries better with the leash because we took a lot of the control issues out of it. She knew she had a certain amount of freedom that she could do what she wanted with but I wasn't saying anything to her or putting my hands on her body to stop her so she didn't get so defensive. If she got a little far she would feel the chest harness gently stopping her without a word from me- some of us really hate being told what to do and feel the need to rebel even to our own detriment. When she got a little old and her brother could be carried easier while I moved quickly I stopped using the leash unless she asked for it- she still tended to stay within 3-4 ft of me except in big open areas. She did this without constant redirection (verbal or physical). Now that my dc are 5 and 8 they have more freedom and a greater wandering range. They both do very well with their wandering room and rarely need to reigned in (although my ds did go through a brief but difficult "hiding" phase) and can be trusted to go to a safe place (usually the front of the store by the cash registers) if they get away from me. So- yeah, my dc understand boundaries.


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

I use them when I have to. Mostly when we go to the children's museum or the zoo, sometimes at the mall depending on which stores I'm going to and if I have any help. When we go on vacation this fall I plan to use them as well. The thought of my sensory sensitive dd getting lost in a busy amusement park on a holiday weekend gives me more blood pressure issues than my doctor would like even if I weren't pregnant...

The reason I use them is simple, I lost my then-four-year-old niece in a Kmart on Christmas Eve once. Only took my eyes off her long enough to click the off button on my cell {before hands free devices hit wal-mart} I looked back up and she was GONE. ended up having the whole store locked down. she finally turned up, and let me assure you, she was corrected. Not in an AP manner, but my eighteen year old self was not aware of any other way of correcting a child than the way my sibs and I were corrected... Went straight to the pet department and got a cat leash, hooked it on her belt loops, and she wore it every time we left her house until I quit babysitting. I had nightmares for years, especially after I got pg with my six year old, and when I finally saw the safety leashes at wal mart I was thrilled. still have the cat leash too, mostly to harass my niece when she gets the whole miss perfect thing going on....


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I saw at least one. if I remember right she had either used one or was thinking about it.


Er, yeah. That was me.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
there are just some things that are not negotiable. my dd sometimes throws a tantrum when she's strapped in her car seat. but it's for her safety so there's nothing i can do, it's not up for debate.

Where is Daisy Rose when you need her?


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm another vote for "cool tool."

I think tboroson did a beautiful job addressing the issue.

I have a chest harness, although I haven't used it yet. Why? Because I hate the color. :LOL

My dd is 20 months old and a runner. When she wants down, she wants DOWN. Consequently, I spend a lot of time running after her. I pad extra time into errands so that she can have her time to explore. She needs floor time, and I respect that.

Because I have one child, and because (so far) she's been good about not darting into the street, I've been able to get by without the harness. On the other hand, I spend a good deal of time holding onto her clothes. She also has no fear of heights, and is physically reckless. I stay hyper vigilant when I'm out witrh her. Friends always laugh about how quick I am when I need to be. I've developed lightening fast reflexes. I make no apologies for the day we bust the harness out.

All kids are different. Even within the label "spirited," all kids are different. I would rather use a harness than fight with my dd every day about getting down. The fight would not end. Walking and running *are* that important to her. She isn't "testing boundaries." She is exploring the world.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

I always thought they were horrible when I only had my first, a child who never ran off and always immediately complied with requests. Then, my second child took us by surprise by just running off in public from the moment he was physically able, pulling everything off shelves and freaking out if we tried to keep him in arms or hold his hand. Now for him, I seriously contemplated one of those leash things. I ultimately did not get one, but I stopped taking him out in public for months. Now, he's manageable in public. He doesn't just bolt anymore, although he does wrench his little hand out of ours. He's able to be reasoned with now, in terms of choosing being in arms or holding hands.

Now, when we went to a science museum when he was 17 months old, I did use my Maya Wrap as a leash around his chest. He's insatiably curious, very exciteable and high energy. There's no way he would have held my hand at the crowded museum. If I let go of him, he'd be gone in no time at all. With the Maya Wrap leash, he was able to freely explore and run around, without me totally losing him in the crowd. It seemed like the kindest thing to do. Some woman there kept giving me sideways, smug looks and it took everything I had not to confront her. At least my kid was able to safely explore.

I think people should generally refrain from judging others or making universal statements. Boy was I ever smug when I had my one mellow child and all of my energy to devote solely on him. I took a lot of credit for his basic personality. People should do this less. Who cares if other people use leashes? Really...


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
I apologize for not being more specific. I was referring to the children who are crying in arms and twisting with handholding asking to do it for themselves.


Well that makes more sense. I'm not sure if I agree completely, though. (And you know I wasn't trying to be rude! But case in point, how you think you sound on the net isn't always how you come across







)

I did buy one of those leash/harness things to use at the feast one year, but I never even used it. I just hated it! I couldn't bring myself to put it on her I had an early walker (10 months and 2 days) and she's fiercely independent, so I understand that. But her choices have always been: hold my hand or be held (or ride in the cart if we're at the store). It's not like she's never objected to that, but her safety is more important. Which I see is where the leash comes in, but really, how is it "better" than letting them walk while holding your hand? If anything, for us at least, she explores and learns more because I'm right there with her interacting instead of five or ten feet behind doing my own thing (of course you can do the same thing on a leash, but it seems like it would be easier to pay less attention to them and what they're doing that way. And of course you can still ignore them while holding their hand).


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I found a harness useful for a few months- when my baby was first walking, but before she/he could reliably hold my hand in a public place/ listen when I said 'Stay near Mommy." Basically, age 1-1.5 or so.

Before my oldest was walking, I swore I'd never use one :LOL


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Cherrybomb- I was not really offended although I did think the "are you sure you should be here" comments were a little snide. I think that about people all the time but luckily I am not in charge :LOL . Few people have the proper personality traits to be in charge of others. I apologized because, although, I knew what I meant and other who I post with often know what I meant.....you know where I'm going with this







.

On your other comments- I go back to it being different for different children. My dd did not like to hold hands at all- they get sweaty, her arm had to be up in the air, it kept her to reigned in.... Not all children like direction or lots of parental participation in everything. Some thrive when left to their own thoughts- with someone close by of course. Case- She was an early verbal developer but struggled with letter sounds, etc. in Kindergarten (even though she had been in PK for years). I talked to her for a while an figured out that she just doesn't respond well to much direction. I got her some cool cards that had a combo of pictures, words, parts, sounds like, etc. and she was reading within two weeks (from not knowing the letter sounds. Remembering this...the next two school years I leave her alone about her work and only participated when asked (she also missed a couple of months of school due to a move). Now going to into the 3rd grade she is on the honor roll, got the Presidential Honor (whatever that is), and reads at least 3 grades ahead of herself. If I start budding in or directing she shuts down and loses all interest and basically rebels. She is unique but I know she is not the only one with this type of personality. So....again I think that for some children the leash is the kindest and most respectful option.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:

Which I see is where the leash comes in, but really, how is it "better" than letting them walk while holding your hand?
For one they have both hands free. For another, you try walking around with your hand above your head for more than a few minutes. Yes, a child is holding on to something, but even then it's got to tire out your arm and neck after a bit. Just my opinion.


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

wow, this topic was just brought up in my local mom's group. and boy, did it get nasty! i have noticed that with the majority of moms here and in my local group, even if you personally do not agree with the harness (or other safety devices such as safety plugs, etc) that most are accepting of others choices. the thing about being AP, is there is no checklist. is simply responding to your child's needs. and for some children, the harness works.

back to my local group, one mom, whom no one had met in person yet, told another mom in our discussion board that she was being abusive for using the harness. it heated from there when she pulled the racist card. accusing "us white women" of being racist, disrespectful, and insensitive to the african american community by using a harness or supporting other parents who do. i swear. the funny part is, this playgroup is pretty multicultural. heck, we even have same sex partners in the group. this one woman just never took the time to get to know anyone before she started mouthing off wth her agenda.

i feel that most "devices" we use for our children can be used in a loving responsible way. the use of any of these "devices" can also be abused. i think you can say about anything we use for our children. some families use a crib. it's the best choice for their family. but it can also be abused by throwing the baby in and CIO. or using it as a babtsitter.

we personally used the harness for a while after ds started walking but only when we would go to places that were crowded, such as disneyland. i just don't think is is fair to expect a toddler to either sit in their stroller all day or to hold their hand above their head all day so that you can hold their hand. and in some places, i refuse to allow my child to not be attached to me for safety purposes. i would rather get ugly looks from people than to have my precious son be lost or taken.

anyway, i guess that was more than my 2 cents worth.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

This is not a baiting question. I really want to know. For those of you who have a toddler who refuses to hold your hand, does not want to be carried or put in a stroller, and runs around like nut in a public place and will not respond to you calling him/her back, what do you do that makes everyone happy and keeps your child safe? Say you are walking to/from a store across a busy parking lot, or you are in the mall on a Saturday afternoon, or on a trail at the desert botanical garden with cacti on both sides. What do you do?


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spsmom*
wow, this topic was just brought up in my local mom's group. and boy, did it get nasty!


I was going to post a topic about this right after that blow up on the list. I was wondering if anyone else thought it was an insult to Af. Am. mothers. I had NEVER before heard that it was until the list blow up. Then when I saw this topic started I wondered if anyone from 'the list' would talk about it.

I thought about it for days.

So do any of you that are against it think that using it is being disrespectful to Af. Americans?

I have used my maya as a few others have mentioned. Only once at Sea World. It didn't really work for us. Sage thought it was a blast for a few minutes but then she took to falling down until I took it off.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I voted that they can be a cool tool. I never used one, but I have two somewhat cautious children who are three years apart, so by the time my daughter was walking, my son was 4 and pretty knowledgeable about safety. If I had a bunch of littles and felt that they would be at risk of danger, I would use one. No question. Safety is more important to me than a philosophical issue with "harnesses" for children.

L.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

For those of you who have a toddler who refuses to hold your hand, does not want to be carried or put in a stroller, and runs around like nut in a public place and will not respond to you calling him/her back, what do you do that makes everyone happy and keeps your child safe? *Say you are walking to/from a store across a busy parking lot*, or you are in the mall on a Saturday afternoon, or on a trail at the desert botanical garden with cacti on both sides. What do you do?
In the parking lot scenerio? If it's a safety issue, and he's doing something dangerous, I pick him up, kicking and screaming if I have to. In other, non-threatening situations, I distract, redirect, cajole, etc. I usually carry certain toys he loves (an Elmo phone







: ) and bring them out in dire situations.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
In the parking lot scenerio? If it's a safety issue, and he's doing something dangerous, I pick him up, kicking and screaming if I have to. In other, non-threatening situations, I distract, redirect, cajole, etc. I usually carry certain toys he loves (an Elmo phone







: ) and bring them out in dire situations.

That would never work with my youngest. He's not very distractable. He knows what he wants and he pursues it. He's on a single-minded mission to explore the world and an Elmo toy wouldn't move him off track. My oldest, now, was very easy to redirect. But the youngest is not. I figure it will be a good personality trait when he's older, but it's very difficult now. For us, every situation was a kicking and screaming one, because he was hell-bent on going where he wanted. Luckily, he's starting to outgrow this.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:

but really, how is it "better" than letting them walk while holding your hand?
My ds (2) will pull out of my hand and bolt. I've got to tell you, as I mentioned before, that when he does that when I'm trying to nurse the baby in the sling, it is DAMN hard to chase him down. I have to readjust the baby first so that I'm not throwing her neck around, hold onto her still while running, and then grab him again. If he doesn't want to come with me, he's dead weight and picking him up, again while the baby is in the sling, is hard.

Do I think the harness should be used all the time? No, but I certainly think that there are instances where they come in handy for certain kids. Mine is one of them. If I put the harness on him and let him free, our days outs are much more peaceful. I'd totally forgotten that we even had a harness until I saw this thread. I may have to dig it out and stick it in my car for those crazy days.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Well, I sure wish I had one at the airport when our flight was delayed past ds's naptime. He took off after one of those motor carts like a dog. He disappeared completely in 5 seconds while the person at the desk was demanding a decision from me whether I wanted to get on a flight that would leave me stranded overnight in Cleveland or whether I wanted to leave at 6AM the next day. At 2, he would have been fine staying close. At 3 3/4 and tired, he was fearless and senseless.


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## bizarrogirl (Jul 12, 2003)

I was always anti-leash. Then I birthed a high need, independent, early walker/runner. At 12 months, she didn't understand boundaries or danger ... she only knew she wanted to explore. And she was far happier to have a wide radius around Mommy than to be forcibly held by the hand or in the sling, screaming herself blue while Mommy tries to do a bank transaction or pay a library fine in a crowded place.

In my opinion, it was the most AP way to meet her needs at that age. Now, at 2, she's cognizant enough to stay with me and follow directions. At 12-20 months, despite her precocity, she wasn't. We only used it about 12 times in that second year, but it was what made her happiest when I needed her to stay in a safe range.

I don't give a second thought to anyone that thinks it's awful or nasty, because they don't know my DD and are not responsible for her safety. I am.

No tool is inherently evil. It's in how you use it. You can use a pen to write a sonnet or poke someone's eye out. Doesn't make the pen bad or good, yk?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh*
I was going to post a topic about this right after that blow up on the list. I was wondering if anyone else thought it was an insult to Af. Am. mothers.


I have never in my life heard that one. Wow. Actually I was using it in the mall once and an African-American couple approached me to ask where I got it because they wanted one for their toddler, who was struggling to get out of dad's grip as we were talking.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

We use them when we go to the mall, or places like that. It gives my 3 year old a sense of freedom (without actually being free to run - which she does every chance she gets). I can see where some might think it's "degrading" to her, but she likes it a lot better than being strapped in a stoller or shopping cart.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Why is using a harness any less AP than forcing them to hold your hand or to be in your arms when they want down?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

We have one, we use it regularly, and DD (17 months) and I love it. She is just like all the other kids here with leash-liking mamas: incredibly fearless and independent, with zero stranger anxiety. I could never, ever keep her with me in a crowd. It was a nightmare! She will NOT hold hands (and I have TRIED...there was a special song I'd sing...), she will NOT tolerate the Sutemi (how I wish!), she will NOT be carried (want to see a megatantrum?) and the stroller is only okay if we are in constant motion, if then.

I hear mamas saying, essentially, "Well, if your kid was disciplined correctly, you wouldn't need it." You know, I am not a softie or a laissez-faire parent about discipline. But there are some discipline battles that can wait, IMO, and some requirements, at some ages, are too much for some kids. I personally think a general tenet of AP and GD is that when it becomes clear that you are asking too much of your child (and most parents know where that line is) you rethink the situation to meet your child's needs, rather than focusing single-mindedly on having the child "obey."

Anyway, where's all the ire about how awful and disgusting and terrible strollers look? I know MDC mamas often aren't super pro-stroller, but how many of you don't even own one? Not too many, I'd wager. You probably use it judiciously in certain situations, as I do with my leash.

The first time we used it I could not get the smile off my face. It was that freeing, for both of us. She was so happy. She will now ASK to have it put on.

Obviously we don't use it all the time. It is not a substitute for teaching about safety. I don't worry about that--truly. I am doing plenty to teach her about those things, but a) she's still very young and b) god, so much better safe than sorry.

I have gotten plenty of looks, a few snide giggles, but many words of support. No negative comments, and I just dare ya to make one.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb*
how is it "better" than letting them walk while holding your hand?

Well, it's always bothered me to walk around with my hand up in the air with pressure put on it. Bothers my shoulder, especially when I'm trying to pull away from the person whose got me. One of the reasons my mother used one. I told her I appreciated her not separating my shoulder for me before I was 5.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb*
five or ten feet behind doing my own thing (of course you can do the same thing on a leash, but it seems like it would be easier to pay less attention to them and what they're doing that way. And of course you can still ignore them while holding their hand).









I want to know where I can get a leash that long! I enjoy looking like I'm not with my kid when they act all embarrassing and stuff, you know? I gotta stay lookin'







My 2-footer just ain't long enough.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think they are simply a tool. They are not bad or good but like any tool they can be use in a good way or not.

I'm sure using a leash (wish it had a different name) isn't the first choice of the majority of parents using them. If I see someone using one I don't think they are bad. I just think that they are being concerned about their child's safety. I've never seen anyone dragging their child with one.

We bought a harness style leash when my dd was younger. She was refusing to be carried, running away, etc. We never really used it after we bought it but would have if we judged it necessary to keep her safe in a situation.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb*
Which I see is where the leash comes in, but really, how is it "better" than letting them walk while holding your hand?

Well, in addition to all the other points made by PPs, here's another. Many, many times has Talia slipped her hand out of mine. Unless I'm holding her hand hard enough to crush her fingers, well, there's no way to prevent that. If I hold her wrist... three times already, she's decided to drop to the ground to throw a fit over having her hand held and damaged soft tissue in her elbow. The third time, it was bad enough that I considered taking her to the hospital, and I was truely terrified that they'd see it as a sign of child abuse. Never mind that it happened in the blink of an eye in the middle of a museum gift shop - how could I have known when I took her hand that that was the time she'd decide to cast herself dramatically to the ground to let me know in no uncertain terms that she was *not* coming with me?


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loveharps*
Thought I'd join in on this discussion (me being the younger sister on whom the leash was used)

As a former 'leashee' I would not put my ds in a leash. Like a previous poster said (sorry, can't remember who) he needs to learn boundries on his own, and I don't think putting him on a leash would do that. It also just looks weird to me.

Stop following me around the boards sis' or I'll never get the chance to tarnish your reputation.
yeah my sister was leashed and she is seriously screwed up!


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

loraxc said:


> Anyway, where's all the ire about how awful and disgusting and terrible strollers look? I know MDC mamas often aren't super pro-stroller, but how many of you don't even own one? Not too many, I'd wager. You probably use it judiciously in certain situations, as I do with my leash.
> 
> QUOTE]
> This is a good point, I have posted on here how much I dislike leashes, but I have to admit recently I have been a closet stroller-user


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Anyway, where's all the ire about how awful and disgusting and terrible strollers look? I know MDC mamas often aren't super pro-stroller, but how many of you don't even own one? Not too many, I'd wager. You probably use it judiciously in certain situations, as I do with my leash.

I have three of them, different sizes for different occasions. She enjoys riding in it most of the time, and when she's not riding I still like having a place to put all the stuff. I also have 2 frame backpacks, a sling, and a leash. I try my best to see what kind of mood she's in that day, how far we have to walk, the crowd or safety factors.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

I have nothing against them. I could see it as a great tool under certain circumstances.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
The only time I think twice about a child on a leash is when I see the parent either a) dragging them behind as they walk at a fast clip or b) yanking the child back from what they should be touching.

I agree. And I remember why I love using my scarf or my maya with my 20 month DD everytime I see a parent holding a child by the hand and a)dragging them behind or b)yanking the child back.

I think that the parents that would drag/yank are gonna do it whether the kid is on a leash or being held. I won't drag/yank either way, but the leash sure helps me not have to run after/search for my daughter as much as I would have to otherwise.


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

Personally, I don't really care for the idea of leashes, but I can totally see why some people would find them useful and kind. I have a very high-energy 24-month-old and a 10-week baby. I was able to keep up with DD and keep her from bolting away in dangerous situations before DS was born, but now it is nearly impossible. I can basically strap her into a stroller or I suppose, use a leash. It is just impossible to chase her carrying a newborn, sling or not. She bolts straight for the street/parking lot every chance she gets. You end up either running full-speed carrying a floppy-headed infant, or leaving the infant sitting somewhere alone while you run down DC1. Neither are at all desireable. This thread reminded me that I need to pick up a leash for DD for use on my solo air travel with both children in a few weeks. I am too afraid of losing her in the airport. She's nicknamed "The Flash".


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## Willowrose (Jan 24, 2005)

I voted good tool.
Before kids I thought they were awful and degrading. I now have a very spirited son who would run off in a heartbeat. That being said, I have never used one. It would have been easy to, believe me. However, I just could not do it when it came down to it. I just felt bad putting a harness on my son. There are so many times I see them being used the wrong way. Kids twisting to get off of them, moms being very forceful and practically dragging the child. I admit, I didn't want to be lumped in with those kind of parents, they really sickened me. So, I never bought one. Instead, we have slings, backpacks, a double stroller, hold DS's hand at all times, or carry him. We also give him opportunities to learn to stay by our sides, while never letting him out of our sight. We want to teach him the dangers of wandering off(strangers, getting lost, etc...)so we talk about it before entering a store.

I have nothing against the harness and think if used properly, it is a wonderful tool.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

They are degrading and dehumanizing, IMO. A child does not learn safety from the use of a leash. There are many healthier and more beneficial ways to teach your child safety and not to run away from a parent.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

MITB ~ I want to try and gently point out to you that the manner in which you are posting is not very condusive to getting your point across. I have come to learn through my experiences as a mother, doula, friend and woman, that trying to place EVERYONE in the same box just doesn't work. Your way may work for you but that does not mean that it works for all. Please try and open your heart and mind and let yourself know that the REAL essense of Attachment Parenting is not about racking up credentials but rather about doing what is best for the child (and again - what is best for you may not be best for everyone). Yes there are certain guidelines and principles, but I think you are overstepping the mark here.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

I think it truly depends on the child and especially the situation.

My DD, who is actually quite spirited, was fine from an early age to walk with us and hold our hand if necessary. But on the other hand, we really avoided situations where she would have to either be in a stroller or on a leash/tether (ie the fairgrounds in the summer, the zoo when it is jam packed full of people etc.) She hated being slinged and hated being in a stroller, she wanted to walk but she would stay close and hold on for the most part.

My DS on the other hand is completely different in that he bolts, runs and will not at all hold our hand, won't sit in a stroller and only likes a sling when he is sleepy. He's not even 18 months and he just doesn't get it yet, that he has to stay close or hold our hand. So same thing, we only take him to places where it is safe for him to roam about freely and will get him to that place safely (whether it be holding him, in a stroller for a short time no matter what his reaction, safety comes first).

Quote:

They are degrading and dehumanizing, IMO. A child does not learn safety from the use of a leash. There are many healthier and more beneficial ways to teach your child safety and not to run away from a parent.
I don't think they are dehumanizing or degrading, I think they are a tool that should be used sparingly and only when truly needed.

When we moved back from the north end of Vancouver Island last spring and my kids were in the car for 3 hours to Comox, and then on the plane from Comox to Vancouver, you bet I used a leash/tether for my DD who was 2.5 yrs when we got to the Vancouver International Airport.

It was insanely busy, and I wasn't going to use a jam packed international airport as a tool to create, or for her, continue a learning opportunity about safety. Considering that she had to be seated for almost 5 hours, she wanted to walk and see everything (and who could blame her) during our 2 hour lay over before our flight to Calgary, and there is no way I could have held her hand that long while pushing a huge stroller with a 6 month old in a sling and our carry on luggage all by myself.

So that is an example of when I think they are perfectly fine to use, when you don't have a choice about the environment you and your children are going to be in and it is truly a matter of safety while meeting the needs of your child (ie a 2 year old that has been sitting for 5 hours and needs to burn off some energy). I think that is one of very few times I have ever used it and it was always a matter of safely being able to give my child what they needed in a time when I wasn't in control of the environment we would be in.

And MITB, I'm not being snippy at all.







I read a lot of your posts and truly admire and respect your thoughts and opinions.







I just felt compelled to point out a situation like mine at the airport, when they are beneficial for both the parent and the child.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

I used to think the parents who used leashes were either lazy or bad parents. Now I know. they have darting toddlers and it's scary as heck!!

My Dad likes to tell the story of how I at 2 turned to him in O'Hare airport and said, "Catch me, Daddy!" and took off running. He said probably 100 people could have grabbed me at any time and that I was out of his sight for several minutes. I was running between people's legs! This was 34 years ago. Can you imagine the outright TERROR a parent would feel about that in today's world? If 100 people could have grabbed me then, it's probably 300 people now and there are probably a good 5 pedophiles in that group.









So we don't have a leash for DD. I can't put my infant DS down someplace to chase her and running with a bobblehead is just plain dangerous. Right now, DD likes her stroller as long as she gets adequate running time. And I usually don't go anywhere like the mall alone. Grocery shopping is mainly quick trips unless DH or a friend is with me.

We are traveling internationally in the spring. I'll probably get a leash then. I'll be darned if I'm going to lose a child in O'Hare or Columbia.

You can definately abuse a leash. But you can abuse junk food and TV too. Good parenting requires a lot of thoughtfulness.


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## scheelimama (Aug 2, 2003)

Well, we just went to Disney for 4 days and the first day I did not use a harness on my dd, and I was frieking out all day, she would walk 2 steps away from me and couldn't see her because there was so many people. She wore a harness for the next 3 days and she actually liked it because she didn't have to stay right at my side and hold my hand or stay in a stroller. She is easily distractable and doesn't always mean to walk away from me. And sometimes she does mean to bolt. She's impulsive. Anyway, it was a great tool for us during our Disney trip, not something I would use everyday though, by any means.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

yes for busy places, amusement parks, flea markets, crowded cities, etc. I was at the almighty Walmart and they have some that are actually backpacks it looks like, the back pack is a monkey and there is a dog one, I wanted to get one b/c it was sooo cute but my daughter isn't of age yet. I would love to see her running around with a monkey on her back - how cute!


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeThinkinMama*
I agree, I can see the need in a place like Disneyland, personally I would rather use a stroller but obviously holding hands or keeping an eye on them within a few feet wouldn't work in that situation


Disneyland?

Try outside my home.

Other big-city mama here will agree ... they may not look great, and the first time you use it you're probably horrified at yourself ... but in Manhattan, they're a wonderful thing.

The sidewalks my children have always known are filled with humanity. That's the only way to put it. My child is three feet ahead of me, and there might be three people between us. So that is just not going to happen. Plain and simple.

And I hated those things when I had no children, was appalled at the thought that anyone could do that to a child ... and then I had my own children.

FWIW, a Maya Wrap works wonderfully as a "leash," if you just put it under the child's arms and pull it comfortably secure ...

Am amazed that so many mothers here are so horrified by it.

Now to finish the rest of the thread ...


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

I haven't voted yet because I'm still thinking about the choices. I didn't use a tether on my children, but I would not judge someone else solely because they were using one. What I want to know is why is it o.k. to use a sling to keep safe a child who does not want to walk, but not o.k. (by some) to use a sling as a harness to keep safe a child who does not want to be carried?

If the issue is that the harness is "unnatural", then how is a sling any more natural? People say that leashes are for dogs, but people also say that pouches (ie slings) are for marsupials. Humans aren't born w/ pouches, they're born w/ arms. If we should use our arms to keep our walking children near us, then we should also use them (instead of slings)to carry our children.

Please understand that I'm not arguing against the use of slings! These are just questions that didn't get answered on "the other thread" and I'm curious to know what people have to say. Is there something obvious that I'm just not gettting?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nomadmom*

If the issue is that the harness is "unnatural", then how is a sling any more natural?

Okay, when I got my sling and read about using it as a Harness, I did not take that as meaning a leash or tether, but using it as a harness to your body....your child is harnessed to the adults body, it is not like a sling, but the child is upright and able to see and interact....like how those Snugli backpacks are, I would criss-cross the sling so that my child was piggy-back, but could not fall off my back and onto their head, kwim?


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

It is like anything else-- can be a wonderful tool under the right circumstances and degrading under the wrong. If a parent uses the leash so they don't have to pay attention to their child and pulls them around against their will, that is abuse of a benign tool, just like a knife can be a great tool or a horrid weapon depending upon how its used. But if a child is prone to running away and you have to be in a crowded place, and you have other children to watch, then boy a leash can be a lifesaver. Out of my mothers five children, including one who was mentally handicapped, I was the one who needed a leash. She simply could not watch me like a hawk because that meant she couldn't watch the others as well. I loved the leash. It was pink and after having gotten lost twice, I was happy to know that if I had it on, it wouldn't happen again. I was very prone to walking/running toward things that caught my attention and could suddenly find myself separated from my family. I STILL remember THAT feeling.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

I use a tether for my 2 yo. It connects her wrist to my wrist, and gives her much more freedom than holding my hand would. I notice that many of the posts for being against them are from parents of one child, children spaced farther apart or milder mannered children. I used to think they were not necessary as well, until baby #2 arrived. A busy, energetic toddler is enough to keep track of...but add a baby to the mix, and you will know what stress is. My toddler loves to walk, hates riding in the cart/stroller, and doesn't want to always hold my hand. In busy places or if I am grocery shopping, I will put the baby in the cart, and the toddler gets the tether. I am a label reader, so my eyes can't be everywhere at all times. If she goes too far away, I feel that little tug and focus my attention on her. I never use it to reel her in, nor do I use at as punishment or in a negative way.

What would I do if she did run away, in the busy grocery store? I would have to choose between following her and the baby in the cart. How crazy is that? My dh and I took both her and the baby on a field trip recently, and she decided to run off into the grass. I had to run full force to catch her. There was no way the stroller would have made it through the terrain.

I have had so many people tell me what a wonderful idea it is. I have also had my share of snub-nosed judgemental looks. I just smile at them and go on my way.

The other day I was at the mall, and saw a parent screaming at her harnessed child, and yanking on it to get him to comply. In that case, I was sickened. In this case, the harness wasn't the problem...the parent was. Any tool of punishment or reward is only as effective as the attitude in which it is presented. Many of you are debating on slings, for example. My dd used to love being carried in the sling. Then, one day, it became the worst torture you could imagine for her.

I also want to add that I despise the terminology "leash". I would never call it that, as it puts the child in the class of a pet. I get really mad when folks I bump into call it that, as well. Really, when you think of it, though, why do you put a "leash" on your pet? Because you love them and don't want to lose them. Doesn't it make sense to protect your child, too?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzetta*
I use a tether for my 2 yo. It connects her wrist to my wrist, and gives her much more freedom than holding my hand would. I notice that many of the posts for being against them are from parents of one child, children spaced farther apart or milder mannered children.

I am against them and have six children.

Quote:

In busy places or if I am grocery shopping, I will put the baby in the cart, and the toddler gets the tether. I am a label reader, so my eyes can't be everywhere at all times. If she goes too far away, I feel that little tug and focus my attention on her. I never use it to reel her in, nor do I use at as punishment or in a negative way.
Why not find alternatives that are healthier and more beneficial to her devlopment than a tether?

Quote:

What would I do if she did run away, in the busy grocery store?
Teach her that it is never okay to run away?

Quote:

My dh and I took both her and the baby on a field trip recently, and she decided to run off into the grass. I had to run full force to catch her. There was no way the stroller would have made it through the terrain.
Why couldn't your DH run after her, or watch the baby while you ran after her?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzetta*
Really, when you think of it, though, why do you put a "leash" on your pet? Because you love them and don't want to lose them. Doesn't it make sense to protect your child, too?

No, a leash on a dog is required by law to keep the dog from attacking people, children, and other pets/animals.
Most dogs are capable of being trained. The ones that are not, might be better off not being a pet, as they could pose a serious danger to a family.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Granola Girl*
I think it truly depends on the child and especially the situation.

I don't think they are dehumanizing or degrading, I think they are a tool that should be used sparingly and only when truly needed.

ITA, and, maybe I would think about using one if I were in a situation that it became a sort of lifeline.
But for just everyday, I do the same as you do. I do not take my children to places that are unsafe for them to roam or run.
To everyone else:
There is nothing wrong with picking a child up and removing them from danger, even if they are screaming and crying. You are literally saving their life sometimes. IMO, it is healthier to pick a toddler up and hold them, than put them on a tether/leash that does not truly teach them about danger or how to stay safe.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that a leash is not a necessary evil. I found that teaching my daughter to hold my hand kept her closer than a leash would have. I have seen kids get into things at stores while their parents attention was off of them because they were trusting in the leash to keep the kid out of trouble and forgetting that they had hands and that really turned me off of them. I know that some kids want to be able to walk around, so did mine and so I used that as an incentive for letting her hold my hand, she got to walk and see things as long as she held my hand and when she didn't I carried her, she learned very quickly. I don't think that carrying a child is stifling to either them or the parent, I love to carry her and she loves to be carried. When she wants to walk she holds my hand and is still able to stop and look at things and explore like any normal child and I think it is silly to say that it is only the people who's children are mild mannered who object to a leash, my child is very excitable and into a lot of things and I still object to a leash because they still allow kids to get into things they just prevent them from running away which is something a close eye and carrying them or holding their hand to keep them out of danger can also do without an insturment meant for a dog.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I don't think that carrying a child is stifling to either them or the parent, I love to carry her and she loves to be carried.
Well, see, that works for you, but my DD does not "love to be carried" at all. I often wish she did, but since she learned to walk she has been loath to be carried for more than a few minutes. It WOULD be stifling (not to mention loud...my kid has some lungs!) to *her* to be carried all the time.

I can only imagine the power struggle if I'd tried "You hold my hand or I carry you." Also, truly, hand-holding is not comfortable for long periods.

We have worked *hard* on teaching DD to stay close...at 21 months, she listens more, is less impulsive, and needs the harness a lot less. At 15 months, though, it was a different story.

Quote:

I have seen kids get into things at stores while their parents attention was off of them because they were trusting in the leash to keep the kid out of trouble and forgetting that they had hands and that really turned me off of them.
As others have pointed out, it is a tool, and can be used well or used poorly. Have you ever seen a kid sitting in a stroller, being ignored, looking glazed out and bored? I have, but does this mean I think strollers are evil? Nah. They can be used or misused, just like a leash.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I can only imagine the power struggle if I'd tried "You hold my hand or I carry you." Also, truly, hand-holding is not comfortable for long periods.

That is why it is not an either/or, only in certain situations when it is warranted. Not all the time, like you seem to be saying.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
We have worked *hard* on teaching DD to stay close...at 21 months, she listens more, is less impulsive, and needs the harness a lot less. At *15 months*, though, it was a different story.

I just can't believe what you are saying. A 15 mo is still a baby and I cannot believe that someone would put a leash on a baby.
Here I am arguing for 2, 3, and 4 yo, I never thought ppl would put a leash on a baby.


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## RoxyMahma (Nov 1, 2005)

My dd loves her harness. It has elmo on it. I only use it when we are going to a crowded or busy place or traveling by air. It just makes me feel a bit more secure knowing if I am distracted, she cannot take off running by one of her distractions. Example: I loved it when we were at the airport. She felt like a big girl pulling her backpack on wheels and I felt secure when I got to the check in desk and had to talk with them and present id etc.

Rox


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Deja Vu

Wasn't that 30 page post in GD enough?


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *archaeomom*
Deja Vu

Wasn't that 30 page post in GD enough?


Obviously not. We have to hear more belittling by some people I guess.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I seriously have to question the motives behind reviving this thread.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have one and am not afraid to use it. My dd oves it and loves being able to not hold my hand. she prefers teh stroller but we can't always use it. Sometimes it is more practical for her to walk but not practical for her to suddenly dart into traffic.

In a moment of desperation I asked my 5 year old if she needed a leash like her sister (we were at the bus stop, she was playing with a toy, dropped it in the street and hopped up and grabbed it from one of the busiest streets in town) anyway she got a big smile on her face and said YES! guess we know what she kids think of them.

anyway it is a saftey device similar to a life jacket, seat belt or bike helmet. it looks kind of goofy but serves a purpose.

It isn't like people leave thier kids tied up somewhere on these things.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I can only imagine the power struggle if I'd tried "You hold my hand or I carry you." Also, truly, hand-holding is not comfortable for long periods.

So true. I can STILL remember from my own small-childhood just how uncomfortable that hand-holding was. My mom had another method - smallest in stroller, my sister and I holding the side bars of the stroller. Brother big enough not to hold on (5 or 6). It was better than the hand-holding, anyway, but I think I would have preferred a leash.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
MITB ~ I want to try and gently point out to you that the manner in which you are posting is not very condusive to getting your point across. I have come to learn through my experiences as a mother, doula, friend and woman, that trying to place EVERYONE in the same box just doesn't work. Your way may work for you but that does not mean that it works for all. Please try and open your heart and mind and let yourself know that the REAL essense of Attachment Parenting is not about racking up credentials but rather about doing what is best for the child (and again - what is best for you may not be best for everyone). Yes there are certain guidelines and principles, but I think you are overstepping the mark here.


















:


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That is why it is not an either/or, only in certain situations when it is warranted. Not all the time, like you seem to be saying.

I just can't believe what you are saying. A 15 mo is still a baby and I cannot believe that someone would put a leash on a baby.
Here I am arguing for 2, 3, and 4 yo, I never thought ppl would put a leash on a baby.









It is the smallest that have the most difficulty with impulse control. I have used a harness on my now 2 year old once. But there woudl simply be no need for my 3 year old.
But now it is easy to understand why you keep arguing that a child should be taught to stay closeby, and understand some safety rules like not darting into the street. Certainly that is very very true for a 3 or 4 year old.
Not at all true of many children under the age of 2 1/2 or so.
I think almost all of us who are saying a leash could be a good tool are referring to young toddlers and not preschoolers.
Joline


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

So why is it worse to put a 15 mo on a harness than a 3 year old? I thought your argument was that my child was going to feel dehumanized and compare herself to a dog...who's more likely to do that, a 15mo or a 3 year old? (Not that I think either is likely, mind you.) And I thought your *other* argument was that I should be teaching my DD to stay close and stay safe--who is that easier to do with, a 15mo or a three-year-old?

So where did my "baby" belong? She was an awfully good runner for a 15mo. She had no impulse control, as johub points out. She wouldn't go in the sling after she could walk, baby or not. But wait, that would have been bad, too....right?

Oh, just never mind. (I was actually talking to another poster...)


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## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

My child's safety totally trumps someone else's hangups about what the tether/harness/leash looks like or reminds them of. Don't use it if you don't like it but don't tell me (or other tether-using parents) that we are treating our children like dogs. That's just confrontational and judgemental. My middle child NEVER learned as a toddler not to run off. He just found it far too much fun. Very impulsive child and with 4 other kids (I had a daycare) I did whatever I needed to to keep him safe and comfortable. And I'm not going to apologize or feel guilty about that.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
MITB ~ I want to try and gently point out to you that the manner in which you are posting is not very condusive to getting your point across. Yes there are certain guidelines and principles, but I think you are overstepping the mark here.

For stating my opinion? I was answering the OP, not trying to "get my point across" to anyone in that particular post.
Funny that everyone is trying to justify the use of a leash to me. Is my opinion really that important?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

A good tool that gives greater freedom to child and parent.
Greater freedom from what? Watching and teaching your child? Freedom from holding their hand?
I thought part of Attachment parenting is being close to your child, not physically attached to your child.

Holding hands, carrying your child are ways of creating a human to human bond.
Communicating with your child is a wonderful way of creating a stronger bond, than using a leash.

Communication is more important to a child's development than learning how to be connected to a leash.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Okay, when I got my sling and read about using it as a Harness, I did not take that as meaning a leash or tether, but using it as a harness to your body....your child is harnessed to the adults body, it is not like a sling, but the child is upright and able to see and interact....like how those Snugli backpacks are, I would criss-cross the sling so that my child was piggy-back, but could not fall off my back and onto their head, kwim?

O.k. This at least explains some of the confusion. I have (in this and the other thread) been using the term "sling" to mean *any* type of carrying device worn by the mother. I know there are many different styles, but I was just lumping them all together. Is that why you said that slings are for infants, thinking I was going around w/ my 3 y.o. cradled in the sling like a newborn?(







) Sorry for not being clear.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nomadmom*
Is that why you said that slings are for infants, thinking I was going around w/ my 3 y.o. cradled in the sling like a newborn?(







) Sorry for not being clear.

Yeah, which is why I was confused, because it would seem to be quite uncomfortable for mom and 40lb+ child to be like that.







Not that I couldn't see someone trying.
Yeah, I just couldn't wrap my mind around that one, didn't even occur to me that's not what ppl meant.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

My child's safety totally trumps someone else's hangups about what the tether/harness/leash looks like or reminds them of. Don't use it if you don't like it but don't tell me (or other tether-using parents) that we are treating our children like dogs. That's just confrontational and judgemental.
Yup! That pretty much sums it up for me.

We just came back from a trip to Memphis and Houston. We purchased a harness ahead of time. Our 16 mos old does not like the stroller and is sometimes happy in the sling.

We used the harness as little as possible, but there were times when ALL he wanted to do is walk. And walk. And walk. We just felt like the harness would keep him safer.

Soo, having said that....I still don't like the way they look and I hated using one, but I really did feel like it was for the best.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Greater freedom from what? Watching and teaching your child? Freedom from holding their hand?
I thought part of Attachment parenting is being close to your child, not physically attached to your child.

Holding hands, carrying your child are ways of creating a human to human bond.
Communicating with your child is a wonderful way of creating a stronger bond, than using a leash.

Communication is more important to a child's development than learning how to be connected to a leash.

Okay I noticed that your title is "mama in the boonies" which I assume means you live in the "boonies", for you it would seem that allowing your children more freedom would be a safe option as you walk along the road or in the stores of your neighborhood, but what about mamas that live in very large cities?? Holding hand is an option sometimes but there are various situations where that wouldn't be an option (having 3 youngins or a hands full already or a very strong child that wants to get away) its just not safe to chance it! What if someone takes the child that is only 3 feet away in a crowded street or store? Its not always an option to avoid crowded places.
Of course it shouldn't be a babysitter for the child, if the child made it that far then any mother would know, they get into everything, but atleast I know that she wouldn't run off and be kidnapped before I could find her again.

You can't expect a toddler to comprehend that if he/she runs away that horrible things can happen. Sure you can say it isn't safe but most toddlers test their limits, its not like using a leash is a permanent thing, its a safety measure that will be unnecessary once the toddler is mature enough to understand the importance of staying close to her guardian. Just like co-sleeping, just because your child does it longer then what society expects them to, doesn't mean that one day they wont mature enough to sleep in their own room.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I bought a tether, and when ds is a confident walker I intend to offer it as a choice (the other choices being the stroller and holding my hand without pulling). We have a repetoire of places we go where free roaming is OK, but I live in a heavily settled suburban area and our neighborhood streets are just not safe for a kid who doesn't have a strong inhibition about running in the road. And don't even get me STARTED on parking lots and store aisles.

I can't be sure, but I suspect that he will often choose the tether as a way to have a sense of freedom with being truly separated. He is sort of a clingy little guy, but adventurous too. And, in all honesty, if he equates his tether with the dog's leash he will be thrilled. He loves our dogs and emulates their behaviors all the time. Even though he has never been on a tether, I would not be surprised if he thinks of himself as our smallest, most favorite dog


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

here we go again







(I was the OP on the long thread locked over in GD)









it's funny I originally DID vote on this poll that they were evil. boy my tune has changed!!!!! my decision is even more solidified after an incident with DS this weekend with him trying to run in a busy street while we were waiting to be seated at a restaraunt.









still waiting for ours to arrive through the mail, and you can bet your bottom I will be using it!


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

We didn't use them. I did try because my twins walked at 9mos and refused to be carried or ride in a stroller when in public. But when we put the harnesses on, they lay down and cried, so I took them off and returned them. I made do, but not without sacrifices (ie 3 Amber alerts called at the grocery- I can't run two different directions at the same time). Thankfully we are through with the run and hide phase. I would never judge someone for using one. It is a child safety restraint and imo no different from a car seat.

Now this weekend I was at a really large aquarium and saw 3 different couples using harnesses on their children. The only one that bothered me was the woman that kept tugging on the leash to direct her child. So it is also a case of _how_ you use it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrayn*
Okay I noticed that your title is "mama in the boonies" which I assume means you live in the "boonies", for you it would seem that allowing your children more freedom would be a safe option as you walk along the road or in the stores of your neighborhood, but what about mamas that live in very large cities??

When I lived in the boonies I had two children. I now live in the cities and have 6 children.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
When I lived in the boonies I had two children. I now live in the cities and have 6 children.


More POWER to you! I couldnt imagine doing everyday tasks by myself w/ 6 little 1s!!!!!!


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't understand why MITB gets a lecture on responding with her opinion, and a mini-lesson on how to express herself, when others in this thread have said worse things that have nothing to do with the topic and been ignored. Lecture one, lecture all.

And, based only on her user name, assumptions are made about MITB's situation, but others would have posters who disagree with leashes castigated for making assumptions about them. Hmmmm. How does that work, I wonder?


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## mama2monkeys (Oct 3, 2005)

I think leashes are ok.. I use one, i have on all my 3kids & i have 2 now that i use them. I think it all depends on child safety issues & how the individual parents feel.

My oldest was a great walker, i got a harness for her & used it only a handful of times & she learned & liked to walk right next to me. Usually she would hold the cart etc. So she was easy. My middle.. well he is always on it. He runs like the wind & wowowo he is out of sight. I very seldom let him walk even with the harness as my youngest is usually the one who wants to walk. She loves her harness. She will ask me,,, walk mommy harne....


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I have seen them miss used -- haven't we all.

But -- intheory -- I can't totally write them off.

I do something with my DN that works as well, but gets us looks







I hook the "leash" to my belt and he has to hold the handle . if he doesn't hold the handle then he has to hold my hand. he always chooses the 3 feet more freedom on the handle. and my hands are free cuz he is hooked to my belt.









I think there are a lot of things out there are the in an of themselves nertural. it is how they are used, and how the child is treated, that matters.

Aimee


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzannah*
I don't understand why MITB gets a lecture on responding with her opinion, and a mini-lesson on how to express herself, when others in this thread have said worse things that have nothing to do with the topic and been ignored. Lecture one, lecture all.

And, based only on her user name, assumptions are made about MITB's situation, but others would have posters who disagree with leashes castigated for making assumptions about them. Hmmmm. How does that work, I wonder?


I didn't realize when I posted but look at the post dates. This is a thread that was resurrected from an old June thread. I suspect that MITB, as the resurrector, was addressed because this appears to be an attempt to continue a debate that got a recent thread on leashes closed and removed.


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

Ah. Thanks, laralou. I was looking at the dates but then stopped, so that must be it. Thanks.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzannah*
I don't understand why MITB gets a lecture on responding with her opinion, and a mini-lesson on how to express herself, when others in this thread have said worse things that have nothing to do with the topic and been ignored. Lecture one, lecture all.

And, based only on her user name, assumptions are made about MITB's situation, but others would have posters who disagree with leashes castigated for making assumptions about them. Hmmmm. How does that work, I wonder?

Actuall a lot of that person's comments seemed to be not well thought out, I thought that was b/c she didn't understand what it is like to live in a crowded city. I did assume that she lived in the boonies b/c of her title, like my title is jrayn b/c my name is jennifer rayn. Appearantly she no longer lives there but that is not the sole reason that I responded with my opinion on the issue, I guess for subjects like this its best to keep the mouth shut, I just hate the fact that when I have to use one that there will be people out there giving me dirty looks and saying bad things about me when all I care about is the safety of my daughter.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

Anyway, back to the point of maintaing dignity: While it is perfectly
clear that the use of leashes effects even the behaviour of pet dogs, it
may also be concludable that this has a simmilar (and simmilarly subtle)
effect on human kids.

Yes? No? Possibly? Unlikely? Never thought of it?

I see the leash, while perfectly suitable for *maintaining control* that
would otherwise have to be done psychologically, an excelent tool to aid
parental arrogance. That is, you no longer deal with various ways to
make your child understand why it should keep safe, instead *you simply
phyiscally prevent it from doing anything wrong*.

A "leash" or a "harness", in my dictionary, is something used to
restrain a dog. Will the child seeing himself being treated the same way
as cannines give him a sort of special view of the world. Will it affect
his *sense of self-worth*?
This lady said it best. Leashes and a child's dignity


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Holding hands, carrying your child are ways of creating a human to human bond.

Holding hands gets painful after a while. How long can you keep your arm straight up in the air?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
Holding hands gets painful after a while. How long can you keep your arm straight up in the air?

Biologically, children are different than adults. And when I hold my child's hand, their arm is not straight up in the air.
If holding hands causes you or your child pain, then you are doing something wrong.
IMO, it is not okay to cause a child pain, hurt, or confusion.

ETA: Positive reinforcement is something to think about as to why hand-holding is used as an either/or.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Biologically, children are different than adults. And when I hold my child's hand, their arm is not straight up in the air.

DD's is, unless I'm bent over partway at the waist. I have very short arms, and I think dd does, too. I can't walk very far bent over sideways...especially if I have the baby in the Snugli.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

MITB, I can understand why you don't want kids to be _forced_ to wear a thether, but I don't understand why you are so 110% opposed to offering it as an option. We restrain our kids in everything from car seats to strollers to slings, after all, in situations where free roaming is not feasible.

As I said before, my ds is not a confident walker yet, but I am expecting him to choose the tether quite often, even over holding my hand, just so he can be out in front of me playing James the Explorer and having both his hands free to investigate stuff. It seems like many mamas have posted to this thread reporting similar experiences with their dc, and I don't get why that possibility doesn't have any credence to you...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
MITB, I can understand why you don't want kids to be _forced_ to wear a thether, but I don't understand why you are so 110% opposed to offering it as an option. We restrain our kids in everything from car seats to strollers to slings, after all, in situations where free roaming is not feasible.

I don't think it's okay to restrain children. It sends the wrong message, that you can't trust them, so why should they trust you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
As I said before, my ds is not a confident walker yet, but I am expecting him to choose the tether quite often, even over holding my hand, just so he can be out in front of me playing James the Explorer and having both his hands free to investigate stuff. It seems like many mamas have posted to this thread reporting similar experiences with their dc, and I don't get why that possibility doesn't have any credence to you...

Children deserve to play without restraint.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

If you have ever slung or held a child who was squirming to get down or asking to get down or arching their back or fussing, then you have restrained a child. Even if you were in the middle of a busy street and you turned them loose the second you reached the other side, you kept ahold of them to keep them safe because your own good sense told you they couldn't cross the street safely without your help. It's not so much that you don't trust your kid - it's that you don't trust the rest of the world to make way for him/her.

We ALL restrain our children for their safety, in the way and to the degree that we deem necessary.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
If you have ever slung or held a child who was squirming to get down or asking to get down or arching their back or fussing, then you have restrained a child. Even if you were in the middle of a busy street and you turned them loose the second you reached the other side, you kept ahold of them to keep them safe because your own good sense told you they couldn't cross the street safely without your help. It's not so much that you don't trust your kid - it's that you don't trust the rest of the world to make way for him/her.

We ALL restrain our children for their safety, in the way and to the degree that we deem necessary.

Smithie, I would not even bother to debate this anymore. Others cannot seem to be civil and respectful of other mamas and this thread is one that was resurrected because of the rudeness by someone causing the other one to be closed and deleted.

Use a leash if you need to. We all do what we think is best for our kids, not what someone else thinks is best.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Yeah, but we usually do a better job of respecting each others' judgement than this.







:

But you're right, I'm out.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

On that note, this thread is closed. Let's not resurrect any more threads just to start arguments, please.


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