# What do you do when your kids call you names?



## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Im talking about the ages of 5-8 years old.
When ever my DD doesnt get her way she calls me names like:
You horrible
You ugly mom
Your the worst
You wretched (she got that from a story book and thinks its the worst thing you can call anyone- It would be equivalent to being called a piece of sh**!)
She has been doing this for over a year and what Im doing isnt helping.
Every time she does it (which is EVERY time she doesnt get her way, I say,
It's not ok to call names. I dont call you names, blah blah blah.
Doesnt work.
I even tried a mean words jar. Its full of all her money and she doesnt care.
Now my little boy is starting to do it. I dont know why this is such a problem. WHat the heck?


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

"I'm sorry you are so upset and feel that way. I love you."

I just try not to get into an argument or power struggle with them. If they want to say they hate me or I'm horrible, I try to validate their feelings, while letting them know I still love them. Sometimes I will say, "that's not a nice thing to say to someone" or the equivilant, but again, I don't want to be going back and forth with them about it. They are usually calling me something b/c they want a reaction out of me, yk?

So, for me, with four kids who don't always think life is fair, I take the more ignore and stay calm approach, and they usually sulk a bit b/c they didn't get to push my buttons as they hoped. My 3 yo will usually hug me and say he's sorry. His common thing is saying he hates me if he doesn't get his way. It's like he realizes he feels bad about it afterwards, though, which is neat to me b/c he still seems so little to me.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

I tell them those words hurt my feelings and I don't like that and I walk away. Usually I give them a warning: "If you call me a name again I'm going to move away from you". My 3yo calls me names and sometimes I will move her to a different spot and tell her when she's ready to be nice she can join us again. My 5yo doesn't do it as much as she does.

I don't think it's a bad thing to teach kids to not allow others to disrespect them- if they call another kid a name, the kid isn't going to want to play with them so that's kind of what I'm trying to teach them at home.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
I tell them those words hurt my feelings and I don't like that and I walk away. Usually I give them a warning: "If you call me a name again I'm going to move away from you". My 3yo calls me names and sometimes I will move her to a different spot and tell her when she's ready to be nice she can join us again. My 5yo doesn't do it as much as she does.

I don't think it's a bad thing to teach kids to not allow others to disrespect them- if they call another kid a name, the kid isn't going to want to play with them so that's kind of what I'm trying to teach them at home.

This worked for me too, till DD was about 5.


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## kindchen (Dec 8, 2008)

What do you do for other serious offenses? How strongly do you feel about the name calling?

My child talking to me like that would push my every button. You didn't say how old your children are, but if an eight-year-old spoke to me like that, I would use whatever discipline strategy I would choose if that child were violently hitting me. I would also ask myself what underlying issue is causing her to think she can treat other people like that.

But that's just me--we all have behaviors we cannot and will not tolerate, and being verbally berated is one of mine. I know that in some families, name-calling isn't that big a deal, and if my child were being silly and called me a stupid-head or something, I would laugh it off. But an older child berating me every time she does not get what she wants would be taken very seriously in my household. I am extremely respectful of my children, and I expect them to treat me with basic courtesy.

Does your DD know what she should do when she is angry and doesn't get what she wants? Is it okay for her to yell that she is really mad, or go beat a pillow with a tennis racket or something? I think in your situation I would give her some specific alternatives. If she chose to continue berating me, she would learn that very angry mom is not fun to be around.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
I tell them those words hurt my feelings and I don't like that and I walk away. Usually I give them a warning: "If you call me a name again I'm going to move away from you".

Yep, that's what we do to. "I see that you're mad, but those words are rude. They hurt my feelings. I don't want to be around you when you hurt me."

Sometimes we send dd to her room and sometimes we simply leave. The other thing is that the less power you give those words (i.e. the more calmly you react), the sooner they'll go by. You should do whatever discipline you feel is appropriate, but don't overreact.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

An 8yo would get sent to her room until she can behave with common decency, a 5yo and under I would tell that it wasn't ok and I'd move away from them.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I did all the "right" things when ds was younger. They just didn't work at all. Now, I just say "It runs in the family, kid."









Ds never really could relate to words hurting people's feelings. Maybe because they don't tend to hurt his. Most name calling isn't a trigger for me, either. So calmly stating he was hurting my feelings, or I didn't like that, never worked. What ds is really hoping for is a reaction. He would get more and more outrageous trying to get one. Sometimes, I'd humor him and give him an over the top one (pretend to be mad at him). He wants me to know he's angry and acknowledge it, but not in a calm "I see you are upset" sort of way. He finds my pretend outrage satisfying.

Other times, I resort to the old "I'm rubber and you're glue" rhyme. Sometimes, I say "Well, you're a son of a ____," inserting his insult word du jour. He finds those replies aggravating but we usually escalate it to something completely silly and end up laughing.

On one level, I think these sort of wise ass replies are really useful for modeling to kids how to handle being called names. I've even noticed ds use my other response, a chipper "thank you" as if it were really a compliment, on other kids. It makes them laugh and they don't get the reaction they are looking for by insulting ds. Consequently, they don't continue to do it.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Like another PP noted - just don't give power to the words. DH gets in a tizzy when DS1 he's 4.5 but wow knows how to pack a verbal punch.

Mostly I just respond with a "Ok, noted" and keep moving through whatever I am doing before outburst and tantrum. No reaction, no emotion. If it goes to further jabs - I simply say I'm walking away as I don't want to be around the name-calling.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

If my child(ren) ever did that it would push every button I have. I don't think there is any place for that kind of disrespect in a healthy relationship.

I think I would try a different tact than "those words aren't nice and they hurt my feelings" because most kids know they aren't nice and hurting your feelings is exactly what they are trying to do because they lack more appropriate and healthy ways to express what is going on for them. Ignoring the words or the power they hold doesn't teach our kids how to make better choices imo.

So I would probably try a three pronged approach.

One is I would (and do) tell my kids that their words do have power. Words used to intentionally hurt others are never an acceptable choice. Words used to hurt someone you love also hurt you - because it puts distance in your relationship and take us away from what we really want - connection and they take us away from being our best selves.

Second I would go over the specifics of the situation with them - what they were feeling, how they could have expressed their needs in order to get what they want, what the effect of making poor word choices were (disconnection, they didn't get what they wanted, they felt worse, they hurt someone they loved) and how they plan to repair the damage their words caused.

Lastly I would really work on identifying emotions, strategies for communicating them effectively and ways to diffuse situations where this kind of behaviour happens so they could learn how to manage their emotions better.

And then we would work on reconnecting - because I think if my kids were using that kind of language in their family, then they are feeling disconnected.

I would have these conversations when things are calm. I would probably come up with some kind of code word to stop the snowball of emotions. Perhaps if she says something unkind you could say: Rewind and try to say that in a more appropriate way and in a way that is more likely to get you want you want.

As a parent I would try to make sure that she is getting opportunities for control in her life and also that she is getting some context for why she can't have her way. That has gone a long way in helping my kids understand and manage their disappointment when things don't always go their way.

good luck
Karen


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I make it into a joke... Really, that has been, in my experience, the best way to deal with name calling from a wide variety of people children included.

"You're ugly" would probably get "that's what you think now, wait until I take my mask off!"


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Well, the thing is, the people saying "IF my kid ever did that... " don't know what it's like to have a kid who DOES do it so I'm not sure how much they get it. I really recommend the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Name-calling is one type of explosive behavior and the answer is not punishment. That book helped us a lot.

I just asked my son what he thinks and he said if you want to have kids who are nice and polite you should never punish. He said you need to help them learn to control their temper. I think that's what that book really helps with and it's also important to control your own temper. If the name-calling is pushing your buttons (to quote some PPs) then that's part of the problem (not that anyone expects you to be OK with the name-calling, but to me, "pushing my buttons" indicates an upset reaction of some sort).


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

OP here
I just want to say that I agree with everything 100% that you say, but none of this comes close to stopping this problem.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> ...


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## NightOwlwithowlet (Jun 13, 2009)

Okay, this is what worked with my son when he was 6 to 7. DS has ADHD and at the time he was in kindergarten, he was being bullied. While we were aware of the bullying and were working with the school and the teacher to resolve it, we weren't aware of how bad it was. He recently mentioned the kid hit him and until now I had no idea there was any physical violence involved.

At that point in his life, DS overreacted to any stressors by crying, losing his temper, and calling his dad and I names. While I understood he did it because he felt safe with us, it wasn't okay.

The best thing that worked was to calmly say that was unacceptable and to have him sit down in a quiet place until he was calm. It sounds a lot like a time out, but it was really to give him a minute to get himself together. There were not warnings, or "if you do that again". If he did it, he went to sit down and take 10 deep breaths. Since he's very sweet and empathetic as well as quick tempered and impulsive, he was usually deeply remorseful by then.

We also worked with him and a therapist to help him learn to control his temper and self regulate. The therapist also worked with us to learn to model better behavior. DH and I don't call each other names, but we are both quick tempered and impulsive ourselves. Once the bullying was stopped and we found holistic ways to treat his ADHD, almost all that behavior has resolved over the last year or so.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

We've been through the explosive child stuff. Dd is much more even now, at 9.

Nasty names are much like a verbal smack, and I treat them as such. At 8, my response would be a short, stern "Unacceptable. You need to walk away." I'd enforce the walking away.

It doesn't have to be a formal "time out", but she needs to pick a different space, and "get it together" before coming back. It's just good practice for what to do when you feel like you are going to lose it.

A good book she might relate to is "When Sophie gets Angry, Really, Really Angry" by Molly Bang.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
Well, the thing is, the people saying "IF my kid ever did that... " don't know what it's like to have a kid who DOES do it so I'm not sure how much they get it. I really recommend the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Name-calling is one type of explosive behavior and the answer is not punishment. That book helped us a lot.









Seriously. My child would never just go to his room. He wouldn't care in the moment whether I threatened to take away his computer if he didn't comply. That would just escalate his outrage. I'd have to use physical force and have a lock on the door. And that does not take our relationship where I want it to go. It also turns name calling into such an out of proportion serious thing. Yeah, it's not nice but the adult has to keep it in perspective. It's not coming from a person in power. The child's feeling that they have little power is what makes using insults so attractive. They don't have physical power so they are experimenting with a verbal version. And it's only as powerful as you let it be.

Everybody tells kids who complain about other kids calling them names that it's just words. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Yet, if they do it to their parent, it's zero tolerance? I'm modeling that it _is_ just words. No, this doesn't make ds feel free to insult friends. Kids are smart. They know people won't play with them if they aren't nice. However, parents are still going to be parents if they aren't nice to them.

And it does teach ds how to handle being insulted in an appropriate way. He doesn't take it to heart and feel crushed. He doesn't feel horrified and give the other kids the reaction that would encourage them to continue. He doesn't go to the nearest adult and complain that so and so called him a such and such (which would be fine. I don't believe in telling kids not to tattle tale or to not go to adults for help. But it's nice when they don't need to.)

My ds does not have an explosive temperament but he does get angry when he feels something is unjust. Not taking it too seriously and keeping my humor goes a long way. I don't know if it would be quite as effective for an explosive child. Humor is a tricky thing that can make a child more angry if not handled right for the situation. But it sure works for us!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
:My ds does not have an explosive temperament but he does get angry when he feels something is unjust. Not taking it too seriously and keeping my humor goes a long way. I don't know if it would be quite as effective for an explosive child. Humor is a tricky thing that can make a child more angry if not handled right for the situation. But it sure works for us!

It is different with explosive kids. I have one of each, and it is SO different.

My son is only 3, but dd was already explosive at 3. When ds tries out names and insults, I respond with "Maybe YOU are a poopyhead, every think of that?!







" and he stops tantrumming and starts laughing. If I'd said that to dd at this age, she would have been completely enraged.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
It is different with explosive kids. I have one of each, and it is SO different.

I believe it! I know I'm not dealing with an explosive child and I know humor can make some kids angrier. I think there still a place for humor in there somewhere but not while an explosive child is angry...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
My son is only 3, but dd was already explosive at 3. When ds tries out names and insults, I respond with "Maybe YOU are a poopyhead, every think of that?!







" and he stops tantrumming and starts laughing. If I'd said that to dd at this age, she would have been completely enraged.

My ds doesn't necessarily switch to laughing, and he might initially act a little angrier. But he does not get enraged, either. He'll verbalize that I'm aggravating him. But then he'll stop with the insults. And I can tell he is not unamused. It's pretty much a game with us at this point. If I come up with a good reply, he'll say "Good one, Mom!"


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
We've been through the explosive child stuff. Dd is much more even now, at 9.

Quote:

Nasty names are much like a verbal smack, and I treat them as such. At 8, my response would be a short, stern "Unacceptable. You need to walk away." I'd enforce the walking away.
This is exactly how I feel (verbally smacked)
I do say unacceptable, or not okay and tell her go move away from me.
She still does it.

Quote:

It doesn't have to be a formal "time out", but she needs to pick a different space, and "get it together" before coming back. It's just good practice for what to do when you feel like you are going to lose it.
She will get it together every time and come back, but it still isnt resolving the next situation and there are many all day.

Quote:

A good book she might relate to is "When Sophie gets Angry, Really, Really Angry" by Molly Bang.


I took your advice from another post and did get this book.
I read it to her with her other books one night and didnt even say anything about it. SHe came to me and said when I get angry Im going to go outside and collect rocks to feel better. I told her I thought that was great. So, now she yells out the name or hits her brother and then goes out and collects rocks. She comes back in all brand new. I tried telling her the point of having a way to cool off is to avoid hurting someone elses feelings or body.
She just says she cant help it and thats the only way she gets rid of the anger. This has been going on for a year and it is so hard to deal with.
I love when her teachers say she is the model child.
I ask her why she can be so nice to everyone at school. She says because she is too shy and would be embarassed to act the way she does at home.
Sometimes I think she might have a problem and that its not her fault, but when I hear this all the time and see her around strangers Im not so sure.
So, doesnt that actually rule out impulse control problems?


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 







Seriously. My child would never just go to his room. He wouldn't care in the moment whether I threatened to take away his computer if he didn't comply. That would just escalate his outrage. I'd have to use physical force and have a lock on the door. And that does not take our relationship where I want it to go. It also turns name calling into such an out of proportion serious thing. Yeah, it's not nice but the adult has to keep it in perspective. It's not coming from a person in power. The child's feeling that they have little power is what makes using insults so attractive. They don't have physical power so they are experimenting with a verbal version. And it's only as powerful as you let it be.

Everybody tells kids who complain about other kids calling them names that it's just words. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Yet, if they do it to their parent, it's zero tolerance? I'm modeling that it _is_ just words. No, this doesn't make ds feel free to insult friends. Kids are smart. They know people won't play with them if they aren't nice. However, parents are still going to be parents if they aren't nice to them.

And it does teach ds how to handle being insulted in an appropriate way. He doesn't take it to heart and feel crushed. He doesn't feel horrified and give the other kids the reaction that would encourage them to continue. He doesn't go to the nearest adult and complain that so and so called him a such and such (which would be fine. I don't believe in telling kids not to tattle tale or to not go to adults for help. But it's nice when they don't need to.)

My ds does not have an explosive temperament but he does get angry when he feels something is unjust. Not taking it too seriously and keeping my humor goes a long way. I don't know if it would be quite as effective for an explosive child. Humor is a tricky thing that can make a child more angry if not handled right for the situation. But it sure works for us!









This my thoughts on the matter, either you can give these actions power or choose not to... I've seen my DH send DS1 to his room for being verbally aggressive and it backfires everytime. Both of them just get ratched up in terms of emotion and it comes down to a power struggle when it shouldn't. DS1 is then in tears for being in TO and DH is PO'd because he feels his son isn't respecting him when he uses those words


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I let DD experiment with language and with results. If she tells me she hates me because i'm so mean i say "oh, AM i?" and nothing more. Next time she wants help with something i tell her cheerfully "i could never help with that! I'm FAR too mean! I'm so mean you hate me, remember?" and then we talk about it all.

I don't appreciate being called names, but i'm sure my DD's don't appreciate my PMT when it happens. We're stuck with one another, sadly (and happily!







) so we cut slack in both directions.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
SHe came to me and said when I get angry Im going to go outside and collect rocks to feel better. So, now she yells out the name or hits her brother and then goes out and collects rocks. She comes back in all brand new.

Oh, I know it is so hard, but that made me laugh a little bit







Baby steps!

The difference between home and school could be explained by a number of things. One of them is simply habit.

I'm not a big advocate of reward charts, but forming new habits is the one area in which I believe they can be helpful. She needs to get out of the habit of using nasty names and hitting her brother. Her brother may or may not be in the habit of aggravating her. Maybe consider a "peaceful family" reward chart, that focuses on them working together toward a goal (rented movie and popcorn on the weekend?). Together, they could earn a star for each day (or half day, or whatever) in which problems are resolved peacefully, and they can reap the rewards together after a set number of stars.

Of course, as always, these behavior modification strategies need to be layered with addressing WHY she is anxious, stressed, etc.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> ...


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Oh, I know it is so hard, but that made me laugh a little bit







Baby steps!

The difference between home and school could be explained by a number of things. One of them is simply habit.

I'm not a big advocate of reward charts, but forming new habits is the one area in which I believe they can be helpful. She needs to get out of the habit of using nasty names and hitting her brother. Her brother may or may not be in the habit of aggravating her. Maybe consider a "peaceful family" reward chart, that focuses on them working together toward a goal (rented movie and popcorn on the weekend?). Together, they could earn a star for each day (or half day, or whatever) in which problems are resolved peacefully, and they can reap the rewards together after a set number of stars.

Of course, as always, these behavior modification strategies need to be layered with addressing WHY she is anxious, stressed, etc.

OOH, ya know that is a really cute idea. Peaceful family chart. I like it.
Ive never done a reward chart because I felt it would cause competition amoung siblings, but never thought of a group effort chart.
Ill try it tonight! YAY I think they will like it too and it might be fun.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Here is a tale, true but unbelievable for me (who was there).

My mother was very gentle with us. She could be stern but she never hit, rarely raised her voice and was firm but fair in all ways. My brother called names and hit. She tried a billion ways to help him handle his anger. She showed him things he could do to feel better, she named emotions, she did everything i've seen suggested here and more. But he called names, and, i think, figured out that she'd exhausted her ideas about it. She wasn't "letting it go" but nothing she did made any difference.

One day, when he was 13, he was on the phone. Dinner was ready, and my mother asked him, politely, to end the phonecall. He ignored her. She gave it a moment as i set the table, she asked him again, he ignored her. She put the food on the table and we all began to sit down to eat. She asked him a third time and he turned and squared up towards her (he was 6'2" already then) and said "in a minute you stupid bitch" and quick as a flash she slapped him! This knocked the phone from his hand and she caught it and hung up in one smooth movement. He stood holding his cheek gaping at her and she told him he was not welcome at her table. I would NEVER believe she could snap like that, but there, the camel's back broke and she slapped him.

I don't know what i learned from that except that no-one has endless patience and even mums are human (he never called her a name to her face again, he is still a mean-spirited waste of skin as far as i'm concerned). She told me years later that it wasn't so much the name as the attempt to use his physical size to show dominance over her. She'd had a violent husband for years before she married our dad and she took a very dim view of men threatening women in any way.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
OP here
I just want to say that I agree with everything 100% that you say, but none of this comes close to stopping this problem.

Yes, she is clear on this and still cant control herself.

We do this lovingly every single time.

This is my non stop job and Im exhuasted. Most of the time it works, but not when Im nursing the baby. I can identify and communicate, but cant interact enough to diffuse when the situation gets out of control- sibling fighting, not getting her way....

thing is, she is connected and just doesnt deal with not getting her way or her brother bothering her.

We did the code word. She came up with her own outlets for anger, but says nothing works as good as screaming names at me/ or brother or about us.
I even did the lets start over thing- she'll do it, but in the end she still got to say the bad things which really is how she wants to handle it.

Maybe I gave her too much control?
She basically has a hard time with a lot in life and Im very empathetic and understanding. She had a hard time seeing past herself. Im thinking she might have an impulse control problem.
All of your aproaches and the others that I agree with do nothing to help.
She will be ticking along perfectly fine until she gets upset.
I try my best to ease her anxiety, but when things like the sound of her brothers voice enrage her, there is only so much I can do.
We have good days where there arent so many flare ups, but those are the days when everything went comfortably for her.

I also want to say that all of these methods work with DS (5 yrs old), but now that he has been seeing DD do this for so long, he is picking up on it and its really not fair for him.

Hmm I don't know what to say then.
To be honest I haven't encountered this particular behaviour with my own kids. They get frustrated and even angry at me but none of them lash out hurtfully like that. Maybe I have compliant kids.

I do have a kid (my oldest) who experiences sensory overload, who struggles with just "rolling with it" and whose frustration when combined with sensory overload can really spiral into anger that he struggles to recover from. We do a lot of work around "turning down the heat" so his emotions don't boil over when he feels things starting to overwhelm him. We also do/did a lot of work on empathy and sibling connections.

I might suggest that a too-gentle approach may not make it clear to her the real effects on her relationships. Perhaps a more clearly articulated "this is unacceptable in this family" and more natural consequences may help. I think for some kids they need it to be more clear. (and just to be clear I am not advocating harsh punishment - I just think that sometimes kids can misunderstand the gravity of a situation when it is only met with a gentle "that's not nice").

I hope you can find something to help you and your daughter work through this peacefully.
best wishes
Karen


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I do have a kid (my oldest) who experiences sensory overload, who struggles with just "rolling with it" and whose frustration when combined with sensory overload can really spiral into anger that he struggles to recover from. We do a lot of work around "turning down the heat" so his emotions don't boil over when he feels things starting to overwhelm him. We also do/did a lot of work on empathy and sibling connections.

She definitely has sensory issues and gets extremely overwhelmed with emotions when there are certain sights, sounds, and smells.
I have the same sensitivities and try so hard to prevent certain things. There is only so much I can do to control the environment though.
I totally understand the sensory stuff. Its the lack if impulse control when I cant plan accordingly or stop something from making her uncomfortable that I cant figure out.
What kind of work on empathy and sibling connections can you recommend?
We usually just talk and she's receptive and has ideas, but when we get to the next situation she just erupts.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
She definitely has sensory issues and gets extremely overwhelmed with emotions when there are certain sights, sounds, and smells.
I have the same sensitivities and try so hard to prevent certain things. There is only so much I can do to control the environment though.
I totally understand the sensory stuff. Its the lack if impulse control when I cant plan accordingly or stop something from making her uncomfortable that I cant figure out.
What kind of work on empathy and sibling connections can you recommend?
We usually just talk and she's receptive and has ideas, but when we get to the next situation she just erupts.

It would help I knew how old your children are.

In the meantime I can suggest some books that really helped us

Hold on to your kids by Gordon Neufeld - it really helped me see how important mainting and building on the relationship connection was for parenting my kids - particularly my oldest who needs me to help him center himself more than my other kids do. If we aren't well connected I have a very hard time helping him and he doesn't receive it well from me.

Roots of empathy by Mary Gordon- it's a school based initiative but I found nuggets to help at home.

Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child by John Gottman and Building Emotional Intelligence: Techniques to Cultivate Inner Strength in Children by
Linda Lantieri - both excellent

I've written a bit about how we try to foster positive relationships here.
hth

Karen


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I did all the "right" things when ds was younger. They just didn't work at all. Now, I just say "It runs in the family, kid."









Ds never really could relate to words hurting people's feelings. Maybe because they don't tend to hurt his. Most name calling isn't a trigger for me, either. So calmly stating he was hurting my feelings, or I didn't like that, never worked. What ds is really hoping for is a reaction. He would get more and more outrageous trying to get one. Sometimes, I'd humor him and give him an over the top one (pretend to be mad at him). He wants me to know he's angry and acknowledge it, but not in a calm "I see you are upset" sort of way. He finds my pretend outrage satisfying.

Other times, I resort to the old "I'm rubber and you're glue" rhyme. Sometimes, I say "Well, you're a son of a ____," inserting his insult word du jour. He finds those replies aggravating but we usually escalate it to something completely silly and end up laughing.

On one level, I think these sort of wise ass replies are really useful for modeling to kids how to handle being called names. I've even noticed ds use my other response, a chipper "thank you" as if it were really a compliment, on other kids. It makes them laugh and they don't get the reaction they are looking for by insulting ds. Consequently, they don't continue to do it.

omg that SO sounds like me as a kid. and even in jr high/hs, and now names really don't hurt or bother me!


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
I love when her teachers say she is the model child.
I ask her why she can be so nice to everyone at school. She says because she is too shy and would be embarassed to act the way she does at home.
Sometimes I think she might have a problem and that its not her fault, but when I hear this all the time and see her around strangers Im not so sure.
So, doesnt that actually rule out impulse control problems?

No, it doesn't. The book I recommended (The Explosive Child by Ross Greene) addresses this issue. She can keep it together at school--thankfully, huh? Could you imagine having to deal with her calling her teachers names too?-- but not all the time. I agree it's not her fault and she needs help learning better self-control (in that book the author asks you to think of it as you would any learning disability). As a PP said, it's mostly baby steps and expect some setbacks too.


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## MulchyToes (Sep 29, 2010)

I would say something to make them feel bad for hurting you- like "your hurting my feelings a lot- A LOT- and your really getting to me! STOP! I'm not ugly, I'm just the way G-D made me!"


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

If my 9yo or 7yo were calling anyone names, they would have to sit down and write an apology letter.

For my 5yo, I would talk to him about it once or twice and then put him in time-out every time he did it.

With the 3yo, I would probably just ignore it.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

I know it's been a while since posting.
I want to thank everyone for their advice.
It's so interesting to see how many different ways people deal with this and such completely different things work for some kids, but will only make things worse for another.

Im going to try to be less affected by it and try a little humor. Thats tricky with DD though, because sometimes that can backfire.
I think if I can maintain not taking it to heart it might settle down.
My natural feeling is just to be upset because saying hurtful words is a biggie for me. Im going to have to a lot of deep breathing for this because being so unaccepting of it is just NOT working for this one.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
No, it doesn't. The book I recommended (The Explosive Child by Ross Greene) addresses this issue. She can keep it together at school--thankfully, huh? Could you imagine having to deal with her calling her teachers names too?-- but not all the time. I agree it's not her fault and she needs help learning better self-control (in that book the author asks you to think of it as you would any learning disability). As a PP said, it's mostly baby steps and expect some setbacks too.

I actually am treating it as a disability. I did read that book along with about 15 others. We tried therapy but it was a waste of time. SHe is the coolest kid and knows her problem and ways to handle it, until she is in the heat of the moment.
Im hopeful that since she can control it in school that she will learn at home.
She is completely comfortable and uninhibited with me (which is good), but the extreme anger is so upsetting to me because I dont know where the heck it comes from.
Well- I guess it could be hereditary. We have certain family members who are very angry pessimistic people, but we dont see them often.
Im sure this is something in her and not a result of modeling this behavior.
Another problem is that DS is not this way at all and is starting to act this way because of her constant lead.
Anyway, rambling on.....
It's just so hard. We had a good day yesterday.
She only grabbed her brother once and didnt have any outbursts at me.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
She definitely has sensory issues and gets extremely overwhelmed with emotions when there are certain sights, sounds, and smells.

Two book suggestions for you:
Sensational Kids -- it talks about sensory processing disorder (SPD) and things that you can do to help your child cope. I've got one child with SPD and just plain 'sensitive' kid (but not disordered), and the ideas work equally well for both of them. So, I have no idea if your daughter needs to be evaluated for SPD or not, but you might find these ideas helpful. It might, for example, give you ideas of things to do when she gets home from school. You know that she's had to work hard to hold it together all day, so how can you meet her needs when she gets home?

The other thing is that if she's got sensory issues, these are largely self-regulation issues. Once her body/mind gets wound up, she may not be able to unwind without a lot of time/help. (That's why we got our ds occupational therapy. Once he was overstimulated, he kept going and could not relax or 'get used to' something. Dd, on the other hand, can learn to get used to stimuli.)

It might help to view her ability to self-regulate as 'delayed' and so view her (in this respect) as if she's 5, rather than 8, for example. I know that helps with our son. Not so much in his behavior, but in my responses to his behavior and my expectations. If I can keep me under control, it's easier.

The other book that might help is:
The Challenging Child. I like this book because it's got a concrete 'plan' for dealing with challenging behaviors, yet it focuses on connection. So, first it focuses on building connection first (which is sounds like you're already doing), then problem solving, and finally consequences for actions. It's very practical, and it's got a chapter on "The Active/Aggressive Child" and one on the "Defiant Child" (my child was the "Sensitive Child").


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I have a temper too. I don't call names (only because I have the maturity to understand that words can't be taken back and can have a big effect) but I can yell. And yell. And yell. I feel the same way your DD does, that nothing feels as good as just letting the anger out in an explosion. Once I've done that I can move on. Calmly saying that I'm feeling very angry because you did XYZ does absolutely nothing for me.

Time alone is good for me. It gives me time to calm down and relax. I personally would send her to her room and let her rage and scream and cry and then let her join the family again when she feels ready. BUT don't ask when she comes out of her room if she's feeling better. Just carry on as if nothing has happened. My parents would always make a comment when I calmed down and it would always make me feel angry again.

Also, if it makes you feel better, when I put myself in a time out now I don't stand in the room yelling and screaming anymore! She won't be like this as an adult!

I would also say that she could do whatever she wanted to do in her room to calm down, so long as it didn't hurt her, damage anything or hurt anyone else. Having her scream at the top of her lungs might be annoying but at least it's a start.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
I have a temper too. I don't call names (only because I have the maturity to understand that words can't be taken back and can have a big effect) but I can yell. And yell. And yell. I feel the same way your DD does, that nothing feels as good as just letting the anger out in an explosion. Once I've done that I can move on. Calmly saying that I'm feeling very angry because you did XYZ does absolutely nothing for me.

Time alone is good for me. It gives me time to calm down and relax. I personally would send her to her room and let her rage and scream and cry and then let her join the family again when she feels ready. BUT don't ask when she comes out of her room if she's feeling better. Just carry on as if nothing has happened. My parents would always make a comment when I calmed down and it would always make me feel angry again.

Also, if it makes you feel better, when I put myself in a time out now I don't stand in the room yelling and screaming anymore! She won't be like this as an adult!

I would also say that she could do whatever she wanted to do in her room to calm down, so long as it didn't hurt her, damage anything or hurt anyone else. Having her scream at the top of her lungs might be annoying but at least it's a start.

Thanks for telling me this.
I must say that DD is always fine after she spurts out her terrible words in a screaming voice and then goes off the be alone for a while. She comes back cool as a cucumber asking me all kinds of scientific questions or drawing me pictures.
BUT...
How can that be okay?
She does it to her 5 yr old brother too.
SHe has a temper problem that does go away if she can "pay us back" for what ever ticked her off. SHe always has to have the last word or I think her head would explode off her neck.

Here is an example. We went out for dinner tonight. She was disappointed because she wanted to go somewhere else that was too far away for a weeknight. She had an attitude and was being sulky (so what). Then she pushed her brother when he was holding the door for me to push the stroller through. She was taking her frustration out on him. I would have left the restaurant but DS really wanted to go out and why should he suffer any more than he already does because of her?
We sat down and she put her hand around my wrist and kind of pinched it.
I told her to keep her hands to herself and she just said STOP!
SHe always yells stop, and will do something to me physically so that I have to say something and she can have the last word yelling at me telling me to "Stop". I tell her she can not do that to me and she just makes this nasty face and yells "Stop". From then on if I choose to say or do anything she becomes explosively mad. I wind up telling her she cant be near me all the while she either calls me names or yells stop. Then she winds up crying because I get angry at her and tell her if she cant be nice I dont want to be close to her (she always wants to be close to me).
Its so upsetting and makes me feel insane.

You say you just yell, but as a child did you do these things?
See, I think there is a difference from yelling to blow off steam then from trying to hurt people because you are angry.
My fear in just letting her blow off steam is that she will not learn how to act the right way and that she will ruin her relationships and her own life when she is older.

As for letting her go in her room to yell and sream- that would be fine, but our house is small and I cant let her scream about how she wishes her brother was dead because he was talking to me at the same time she was.
Fortunately my DS bounces back fast and he knows she doesnt really mean it, but hearing that cant be ok for a 5 yr old.
I dont and never did have a hot temper and Im totally non confrontational.
She is both of these things, so I cant relate. Maybe if I could it woulnt be so upsetting to me.
The sad part is every day at least once she tells me how much she loves me and that she wishes she knew what to do when she was mad, but that it happens too fast before she can use her plan.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
The sad part is every day at least once she tells me how much she loves me and that she wishes she knew what to do when she was mad, but that it happens too fast before she can use her plan.

I think therapy can help a lot with this. You said you went, but it wasn't helping? Maybe you needed more time, or maybe a different therapist. Dd was in counseling for a year, and things got worse until about the 5th month







We/she had a crisis--and breakthrough--at that point, and it was a very productive experience thereafter.

She needs to learn to recognize the earlier warning signals, and have coping tools to put in place then. Your restaurant story is familiar to me--reminds me of my dd's behavior when she was struggling. I always thought of it as "fractious" behavior (I used to work for a vet, and when we'd get a stray cat that was completely not abled to be handled, it would get a sign on the cage that said "FRACTIOUS" meaning: this cat will bite and scratch the heck out of you if you touch it). Dd seemed like a fractious cat to me--anything I did might get me attacked. But, at the same time, she wouldn't stop demanding my attention! Very frustrating.

But the "early warning" emotion was disappointment, and maybe frustration. If she isn't handling disappointment and frustration effectively, it gets multiplied to anger, rage.

When my dd was in counseling, she had this same assignment every week:

Think of 3 things that happened this week.

What happened?
How did you feel? (mad/sad/glad/etc)
What did you do?
What else could you have done?

In the beginning, her story would look much like your dd's. What did I do? Shoved my brother. What could I have done? Screamed and thrown stuff.

By the end, her story looked more like: What did I do? Brought my new silly putty to make the restaurant more fun. (dd manipulates textured things to calm herself--sensory stuff). What could I have done? Shoved my brother


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
You say you just yell, but as a child did you do these things?
See, I think there is a difference from yelling to blow off steam then from trying to hurt people because you are angry.
My fear in just letting her blow off steam is that she will not learn how to act the right way and that she will ruin her relationships and her own life when she is older.

Oh my yes! I used to scream that I hated my parents. I remember one time my brother was watching me (he's 12 years older). I don't remember what happened but I remember standing in the hallway SCREAMING at the top of my lungs so loud that I actually couldn't hear anything but my scream.









I agree with the PP that coping strategies need to be taught to your DD but the problem is that in the moment she's not going to remember and it takes emotionally maturity and self control to choose another path.

I have to admit though that your DD does sound worse than I was. Despite what I've said here my outbursts weren't a daily occurrance.

I think in some ways she will always have a temper, but with help she will learn to control it. I'm definitely not a raving lunatic. I am quick tempered and quick to cool off and one of the good things is that I don't hold a grudge. Usually when I get over something, I am completely over it and that's always a benefit in life because I don't carry around unneccesary baggage.

Also, I'd let her just have the last word alot of the time. Hurting someone else is not OK but if she wants to yell stop and it makes her feel better, just let her and then let it go.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Honestly, based on your last post, it sounds as though there is a lot more going on. I don't think that just humouring the name calling in the hopes it doesn't backfire and she doesn't get more explosively angry is in her best interest, or that of your other children. I am assuming that she's somewhere in the 7-9 age range, based on her brother's age and that is definitely old enough to be exhibiting some self control particularly around physically harming family members in anger. I'd second the PP to try some therapy, and I'd suggest a talk with your doctor and maybe enrolling in some classes to give you more tools in your parenting tool box specifically to help her move through this in a healthy way. It sounds like she is really asking for more help in dealing with this.

good luck to both of you
Karen


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## melisssaparker46 (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm shocked. 5-8 years old kids can say that? Well, of course you should ask the kid why he/she said those things to you. And if you did something wrong you should say sorry. Afterwards, tell him/her that what he/she said is not nice and can hurt someone's feelings.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

DD is 7 yrs old. Sorry I keep forgetting to mention that.

After last nights restaurant situation I told DD I needed some time by myself because of the way she treated me. She went in her room and drew pictures and then came out and told me how much she loves me. We had a long talk, like we always do. She sits on my lap and we cuddle and she is the sweetest thing in the whole world. I tell her in a million ways how much I love her and we totally connect.
This is what always happens.
This morning I had to wake her up for school and it looked like she might be in rare form. She was lieing on the floor saying she was too tired. I just tended to my housework knowing that no matter what I say or do when she says that it could cause her to flip.
She came out all dressed and was an angel all morning. Even when her brother brushed past her in an annoying way she was able to calmly tell him to stop and ask me why he was being so annoying.
Then he told her she doesnt know anything about babies. This could have flipped her out, but she just asked him why he was being that way and I helped her to ignore it and asked him to stop being unkind.
So it looks like today she is very well balanced and in complete control.
Maybe she is entering into an equilibrium or something.
Maybe she really just has a HOT hot temper and is too immature to know how to deal with it combined by me not being able to accept that?
The thing is the same morning scenario could have played out when she is in that frame of mind and it would have been a disaster.

I am and have been for years trying to figure out what it could be.
1. I know for sure that she has a hot temper (inherited from DH)
2. I know she is extremely senstive to her surroundings and is uncomfortable with a lot of sounds, smells, stimulation (Im going to start another post to see if I get feedback from moms with kids with SPD.
3. I know she is very connected with me.
4. I know that this isnt her fault, its a problem that she is trying to work on. She knows that she is the one who suffers by having the natural consequence of having a mom who sometimes needs to be away from her (in my room for 5 minutes) and a little brother who always feels like he needs to retaliate and doesnt trust her.
5. Ive done elimination diets for 4 months straight and saw no improvement. We went completely dairy, gluten, soy, and egg free.

So, those are the things I know. The rest I just dont and Im trying to figure it out. I am trying to do the right job in raising her to know how to take care of herself, be happy, and treat other people kindly.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melisssaparker46* 
I'm shocked. 5-8 years old kids can say that? Well, of course you should ask the kid why he/she said those things to you. And if you did something wrong you should say sorry. Afterwards, tell him/her that what he/she said is not nice and can hurt someone's feelings.









That sounds so simple.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
What happened?
How did you feel? (mad/sad/glad/etc)
What did you do?
What else could you have done?

In the beginning, her story would look much like your dd's. What did I do? Shoved my brother. What could I have done? Screamed and thrown stuff.

By the end, her story looked more like: What did I do? Brought my new silly putty to make the restaurant more fun. (dd manipulates textured things to calm herself--sensory stuff). What could I have done? Shoved my brother
















I do exactly this with DD and every time she has great answers and ideas. How can talk therapy help her when she is the most rational person in the world when she's calm. We talk about it constantly and has the best intentions until the anger strikes.
Do you think it would hold her more accountable because it would be a stranger? I dont know if that would help or make it worse.
It sounds like your DD has a similar personality and I really appreciate your input.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Also, I'd let her just have the last word alot of the time. Hurting someone else is not OK but if she wants to yell stop and it makes her feel better, just let her and then let it go.

But...
What she does is says something like "Your horrible....... STOP!"
So thats making it ok for her to call me a name.
I cant even open my mouth to tell her thats not ok with out her saying stop.
It just so bratty and I dont want her to think she can treat people that way.

Okay, so if I do let her have that jab and say stop, she will be back by my side asking me to get something for her or telling me that leaves loose their chlorophyll in the fall- lol. Then I will say "you were rude to me before", then she will say "Im sorry mommy", and put her eyebrows down and make a remorseful face- while quickly resuming her question or information.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
Okay, so if I do let her have that jab and say stop, she will be back by my side asking me to get something for her or telling me that leaves loose their chlorophyll in the fall- lol. Then I will say "you were rude to me before", then she will say "Im sorry mommy", and put her eyebrows down and make a remorseful face- while quickly resuming her question or information.


Honestly, I would withdraw from her. I see nothing wrong with saying something like "I'm not ready to talk to you right now after the way you spoke to me". Don't give her the closeness/cuddles/talking - that's all positive attention for a negative action. And stay withdrawn until she behaves (or until bedtime, whichever comes first, no kid should go to bed with a parent mad).


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## mtm (Dec 4, 2003)

My 5 year old is the name caller in our house so I feel for you OP. We had an example yesterday where his older brother was helping him with something and the 5 year old got mad and said brother was too slow, dumb etc. I withdrew the eldest and reminded the 5 year old eldest won't want to help if he talks to him that way. Sometimes that's enough, other times that will send the 5 year old yelling at me (adults are so stupid is a frequent line). We've tried time-ins (lets sit and read together to help you calm down), lots of compassion (sounds like your frustrated, how can we deal with it), code words for him to use when he needs space, time-outs where he's sent to another room, everything I can think of. I'm going to check out some of the books posted here.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Honestly, I would withdraw from her. I see nothing wrong with saying something like "I'm not ready to talk to you right now after the way you spoke to me". Don't give her the closeness/cuddles/talking - that's all positive attention for a negative action. And stay withdrawn until she behaves (or until bedtime, whichever comes first, no kid should go to bed with a parent mad).

Thats how I feel and sometimes I do withdraw and say exactly that, but then I feel like Im the adult here, and maybe thats passive aggressive.
If she were an adult and talked to me like that I'd have no problem giving her the cold shoulder till bedtime, but she is only 7 and Im trying to be loving about this.

I dont hug and cuddle her when she is treating me that way, only when she is behaving kindly again.

I totally hear what your saying and if this continues until she is older, I probably will have to do just that to keep myself sane.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mama i have read some of the replies but not all of them so forgive me if i am repeating them.

from my experience 5 to 8 is a huge difference.

this is what i did during all those times

5 - dd was going thru hormonal changes and thus was going thru deep angst. i ignored it. she needed a place to vent. she was incapable of being logical. so i gave her the space to vent.

at 6 and 7 - it depended on her mood. if she was deeply deeply angry then i told her 'that is fine with me. you are an individual and you have a right to your opinion. but that doesnt mean that is who i am.' if it wasnt that deep then i'd revert to pantomime or joking and that would clear the air.

at 8 - i do nothing. dd 'punishes' her own self. she is going thru a realisation of conscience and so she is extremely regretful afterwards.

however her name calling has NEVER affected me. its her way of hitting out. it was either she was mad at something and taking it out on me... or she was mad at me.

the 'that's your opinion...' has really worked for dd. she uses that to not get hurt when someone teases her. she is a round peg in a square hole so she has been able to see just coz someone calls her something doesnt mean that is WHO she is.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Quote:

She basically has a hard time with a lot in life and Im very empathetic and understanding. She had a hard time seeing past herself. Im thinking she might have an impulse control problem.
All of your aproaches and the others that I agree with do nothing to help.
She will be ticking along perfectly fine until she gets upset.
I try my best to ease her anxiety, but when things like the sound of her brothers voice enrage her, there is only so much I can do.
We have good days where there arent so many flare ups, but those are the days when everything went comfortably for her.
It sounds like this goes deeper than name-calling, like the yelling is a symptom of something else going on with her. Have you done all the food and lifestyle stuff - eliminate dyes, refined sugar, other common problem foods, make sure she isn't watching much if any TV, getting adequate exercise? Are there sensory or emotional factors in her life right now that might be irritating her that you can address - scratchy clothing, feeling neglected because of the new baby?

I feel for her, and you also. I had a horrible temper as a child. It was really overwhelming because it was so intense, and nobody ever helped me deal constructively with it. In retrospect, I was a sensitive eldest child of a single mom, and I never felt like anybody listened to me or let me be 'a baby,' so I acted out when the pressure to be a mini-grown-up got too much.

Maybe this would not work at all for your daughter, but the thing that got me to start controlling my temper on my own was horseback riding. You cannot get angry when you are riding - the horse will either be frightened or will ignore you. You have to learn how to stay calm so you can work with the horse, not against it. Horses are very sensitive, very in tune with people's emotional states, and also very forgiving animals. You can learn to be gentle with them, and that can transfer to interactions with humans. I think the same can be true of dog-training. Maybe this is totally unfeasible for your life situation and/or she'd have zero interest, but is there any way you can get her involved in some kind of animal training, where she has to be responsible for regulating her emotions in order to work with the animal successfully? If she works with the animal for awhile, they can also develop a bond that will be very rewarding for her.

Maybe if that doesn't work, karate classes, or kendo - something where she can go beat on people with a stick for an hour twice a week, but where self-control, precision, and good sportsmanship are also emphasized as part of the training.

I think sometimes parents have to outsource some things, and maybe if she has a "self-control mentor" who is outside the family - a coach or teacher - she will have a different set of motivations for pleasing that person and comporting herself appropriately than she has for changing her behavior at home, where she knows she is loved unconditionally, and where she doesn't suffer public humiliation if she is being a name-calling pill.

Have you tried doing some sort of mindfulness-based meditation with her? She might need a few more years yet to do sitting meditation, but even doing a one or two-minute check-ins with her body to identify tension spots and release them, consider if she is hungry or thirsty and needs to attend to bodily needs, to focus in on her breath, and/or to do an emotional check-in would be a good training for her to start. It really is a long process to train yourself to notice when you are in the yellow or orange, rather than the red zone, and then not only to notice, but to DO something about it.

One more thought is that maybe you can give her a silent visual warning if you think she's moving into yelling territory from disappointment or resentment - hold up a red stop sign, a picture of a volcano, a paper that says, "Think twice!", something to cue her without you yelling that acts as a mirror for what she is doing. For that matter, maybe holding up a mirror would help. I am sort of horrified by how I look when I am angry or I've been crying for awhile. Maybe she doesn't fully realize what she is unleashing on everybody else. And even if brother can hear it, I would prefer her to go scream in another room with the door shut than into somebody's face. It is at least a symbolic acknowledgment that yelling AT people is not okay. Even if we get angry, we have to be able to direct the anger in a direction that won't hurt anybody.

Bless you for helping her learn to deal with this constructively. I wish I had gotten those lessons earlier in life so that they would be more automatic as an adult.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Well, my child is three (almost four) and I tell her, "However you feel, I'm still your mom. But I don't let people call me names." And I walk away.

I tried the closeness thing and it was a disaster. But that's her personality--she loves the attention and she is highly sensitive to that positive reaction or any reaction, so anything that draws me towards her is going to encourage her.

However, when she is having a super bad day I do try (after we've calmed down) to start off on a more positive foot with more positive attention and get into a good groove.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
I do exactly this with DD and every time she has great answers and ideas. How can talk therapy help her when she is the most rational person in the world when she's calm. We talk about it constantly and has the best intentions until the anger strikes.
Do you think it would hold her more accountable because it would be a stranger? I dont know if that would help or make it worse.
It sounds like your DD has a similar personality and I really appreciate your input.

I do think it helps that it is someone other than mom or dad. Toward the middle of our year in counseling (the point when we all sort of accepted the advice and made some breakthroughs), dd started focusing on learning to control herself so that she could graduate from counseling









Also, it is a structure very different from discussing these things at home, after an incident. The homework was done by herself, and she could choose what events to write about. She didn't have to always write about *bad* stuff. And then she and her counselor went over it together privately, without us there (otherwise, we were mostly together in counseling). But it was consistent reflection on her behavior that, over the months, helped her to see patterns and make better choices _earlier_ in the process.

There was also the component of teaching her to reduce her stress, and some coaching for us (the parents) to help eliminate mixed messages and set firmer boundaries.

Lastly, a third party can just SEE things much more clearly than the people in the family. Sometimes a trained eye, and an outside perspective, can make a world of difference.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
It sounds like this goes deeper than name-calling, like the yelling is a symptom of something else going on with her. Have you done all the food and lifestyle stuff - eliminate dyes, refined sugar, other common problem foods, make sure she isn't watching much if any TV, getting adequate exercise? Are there sensory or emotional factors in her life right now that might be irritating her that you can address - scratchy clothing, feeling neglected because of the new baby?

Yes, tried elimination diets. The tv is only on for about 40 min 2-3 times a week as a treat.
Yes, definitely sensory stuff. Im getting ready to post about that.
She feels very jealous of the baby and of her brother and even a little bit of DH who is barely ever around. She has no problem saying she wants me all to herself even though she gets the most attention. I know she is the neediest and give her as much as humanly possible

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I feel for her, and you also. I had a horrible temper as a child. It was really overwhelming because it was so intense, and nobody ever helped me deal constructively with it. In retrospect, I was a sensitive eldest child of a single mom, and I never felt like anybody listened to me or let me be 'a baby,' so I acted out when the pressure to be a mini-grown-up got too much.
I can totally relate to this. I was the oldest of 4 kids and had a brother with cp when I was 7, so my entire childhood was spent sitting around in hospitals and having to be an adult. I never had a choice, so didnt know that life could be different and that other kids actually got attention.
I am so empathetic to the fact that she is the oldest and aware of how unfair it can seem. It still doesnt help her anger though.

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Maybe this would not work at all for your daughter, but the thing that got me to start controlling my temper on my own was horseback riding. You cannot get angry when you are riding - the horse will either be frightened or will ignore you. You have to learn how to stay calm so you can work with the horse, not against it. Horses are very sensitive, very in tune with people's emotional states, and also very forgiving animals. You can learn to be gentle with them, and that can transfer to interactions with humans. I think the same can be true of dog-training. Maybe this is totally unfeasible for your life situation and/or she'd have zero interest, but is there any way you can get her involved in some kind of animal training, where she has to be responsible for regulating her emotions in order to work with the animal successfully? If she works with the animal for awhile, they can also develop a bond that will be very rewarding for her.
I would love to get her into horseback riding. Ive always loved horses and so does she, but its a money issue.
When she is older I have a lot of plans to get her involved with the animal shelter.
We actually have a cat that she was pretty angry at for about a year. She didnt like that she couldnt coltrol her and would act aggressively toward the cat. The cat started to bite her every time she went by. It was a natural consequence. The cat didnt do that to anyone else in the family.
It took her about 6 months of getting bitten (the cat doesnt bite hard, but gives scratch marks with her teeth) to realize this cat was NEVER going to let her control it. Now they have a peaceful relationship and the cat never attacks her. It took her so long for that to sink in and for the anger to go away. Now it's been two years since we got the cat and things are great.
Thats a LONG time though- to learn that she must have respect.

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Maybe if that doesn't work, karate classes, or kendo - something where she can go beat on people with a stick for an hour twice a week, but where self-control, precision, and good sportsmanship are also emphasized as part of the training.
NO interest whatsoever. She only wants to do ballet and her major outlet is art. She is working on something really amazing in her room right now. That is really her outlet.

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I think sometimes parents have to outsource some things, and maybe if she has a "self-control mentor" who is outside the family - a coach or teacher - she will have a different set of motivations for pleasing that person and comporting herself appropriately than she has for changing her behavior at home, where she knows she is loved unconditionally, and where she doesn't suffer public humiliation if she is being a name-calling pill.
Im thinkin maybe you are right.

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Have you tried doing some sort of mindfulness-based meditation with her? She might need a few more years yet to do sitting meditation, but even doing a one or two-minute check-ins with her body to identify tension spots and release them, consider if she is hungry or thirsty and needs to attend to bodily needs, to focus in on her breath, and/or to do an emotional check-in would be a good training for her to start. It really is a long process to train yourself to notice when you are in the yellow or orange, rather than the red zone, and then not only to notice, but to DO something about it.
She does a kids yoga video every once in a while and that helps.
Walking around in the yard alone and humming seems to chill her out too.

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One more thought is that maybe you can give her a silent visual warning if you think she's moving into yelling territory from disappointment or resentment - hold up a red stop sign, a picture of a volcano, a paper that says, "Think twice!", something to cue her without you yelling that acts as a mirror for what she is doing. For that matter, maybe holding up a mirror would help. I am sort of horrified by how I look when I am angry or I've been crying for awhile. Maybe she doesn't fully realize what she is unleashing on everybody else. And even if brother can hear it, I would prefer her to go scream in another room with the door shut than into somebody's face. It is at least a symbolic acknowledgment that yelling AT people is not okay. Even if we get angry, we have to be able to direct the anger in a direction that won't hurt anybody.
Tried that - WHoah it pi$$ed her off

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Bless you for helping her learn to deal with this constructively. I wish I had gotten those lessons earlier in life so that they would be more automatic as an adult.

Thank you so much- I am trying with all of my soul


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I have to sort of laugh about the cat - it sounds like the cat is one of your daughter's teachers. Felines are controlled by nobody but themselves. Dogs, horses, they will work with you if you ask nicely, but cats, they just don't care.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

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Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
I have to sort of laugh about the cat - it sounds like the cat is one of your daughter's teachers. Felines are controlled by nobody but themselves. Dogs, horses, they will work with you if you ask nicely, but cats, they just don't care.

It is kind of funny. It took a really long time and so many bite marks, but she really learned.
Maybe I should bite her lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

So let me say straight off the bat that I have no experience with this, my DD is only 2, and so far we haven't had much trouble with this sort of thing. BUT, another poster put this link in a post in the main parenting forum about bullying, and I read through a lot of the site. Here is a section about situations like yours: Guide to Aggression in Children

I have no idea if it is something that you would be willing to try, but it might be worth looking at, anyway. Not sure how I feel about some of his points, but it is an interesting perspective.

Hope you find something that will help! If nothing else, maybe time will. One of my brothers could be a real UAV when he was a kid/teen, but now he's one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. I really don't think it was anything my parents did or didn't do, I think he just grew up, KWIM? Though I guess that doesn't really help now.


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