# LATCH Belts for Prevention of Carseat Tipping?



## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

I use the Graco ComfortSport for my 13 month old son, and I do like it a lot. Although it tipped over the other day on a sharp turn (tipped to the left). I was pretty upset but it, but thank goodness he was not hurt or anything. Now is that what the LATCH belts are for? To keep it from tipping? His seat still faces backwards because I don't feel he's heavy enough for it to be turned forwards yet. I know they say 20 pounds or more (he weighs 22 pounds), but I want to keep him safer for longer. My car does not have the bar (for the LATCH belts) behind the rear middle seat (which is where his carseat is). However the other two rear seats do have that bar. My car is a 2007 Toyota Camry with side impact (curtain) airbags on all four doors, so it's pretty safe. It also did very well on road crash tests, so I think he and I are pretty safe in it. I'm just not sure what the LATCH belts were invented for in the first place.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yikes! If your seat is tipping it is NOT installed correctly!

Find a safekids carseat check in your area.

You're right to keep him rf. It's SO much safer. I kept dd rf until 3.5yrs.

good luck!

-Angela


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

here is some info on LATCH: http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html

its not a belt but a method of attaching the car seat to the car using the LATCH method. i dont think its safer...but it is tons easier and for that reason, i tend to consider it safer, as it will lessen misuse.

as far as your son's seat tipping, that should not be able to happen.

it sounds like your son has a long way to go before he will be needing to face forward. my 3 yo is still RF'ing and that is safest (his seat goes to 35 lbs. and he's a bit over 30 lbs. so we probably have a few more months).

you may want to check this out re: the seat you have. im not sure if it applies to you or not: http://www.gracobaby.com/SafetyAndRe...ll&recallID=21


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Yeah, if it's tipping, you have a problem with the installation. There should be no way that can happen.

ETA:
If you can't get it installed correctly with your seatbelt in the center, it's much safer to install it on one of the sides with LATCH (assuming you get it installed correctly there). A correct install in the middle is slightly safer than a correct install on one of the sides, generally speaking, but a correct install will always be safer than an incorrect one, regardless of position.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Well it normally does not tip, but it did on that one sharp turn and it scared the crap out of me. I think it's also because the middle seat is raised slightly higher than the two side seats. The middle seat is almost like on a slight bump or a hill, while the two side seats are not. I installed it the exact way that the manual said to install it. I don't get it at all.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Right after it tipped I did notice that the LATCH belts were preventing the seatbelt from being pulled as tight as it should be pulled. There was some slack and the seatbelt was loose, and I tried to tighten it but the LATCH belts being there won't allow it to be tightened. It gets me so angry. I hate the LATCH belts!!!


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMacSanDiego* 
Well it normally does not tip, but it did on that one sharp turn and it scared the crap out of me. I think it's also because the middle seat is raised slightly higher than the two side seats. The middle seat is almost like on a slight bump or a hill, while the two side seats are not. I installed it the exact way that the manual said to install it. I don't get it at all.

I'd put it in a side seat, absolutely.

It's never supposed to tip like that...


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

I think I'll put it in one of the side seats, because the middle seat goes up, it's like it's a hill and the two side seats are low valleys. I remember a friend of mine had that problem with her son's carseat years ago. Her son is 12 now, but back when he was in his toddler carseat, it would tip when it was on/in her raised middle rear seat. So she switched it to the side seat and I don't think she had that problem anymore. And this was before the LATCH system was ever invented. What is the purpose of the LATCH system? To replace a missing or broken seatbelt?


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Sorry to keep rambling, but this question is not about the LATCH. I know those "locking clip" things are sometimes used on seatbelts. But after reading the carseat safety FAQ website, I'm so confused about them. Can they (or do they) prevent the tipping of the carseat? My car has lap/shoulder belts in all three rear seats. They're the kind that lock up on a braking or sudden stop, or if you suddenly yank hard on them. Is a locking clip for the prevention of tipping? I tried to find that answer on there and I couldn't. I'm just so confused and I can't find my carseat's manual because I bought the seat about 4 months ago, and I lost it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Okay- LATCH installs are one valid install method. That's it. It's an easier install.

I can't envision what you mean about some LATCH component getting in the way.

Installing with the seatbelt, you should pull the seatbelt ALL the way out then feed it back in until the seat is tight. It should make a clicking noise as it goes back in. Then it shouldn't be able to be pulled back out. If your seatbelts don't lock like that THEN you might need the lockoffs.

What kind of seat is it?

What kind (and year) of car?

-Angela


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

you should be able to get your product manual here
http://www.gracobaby.com/CustomerSer...ry=16&Model=75


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Whether you use a seatbelt to install or LATCH (you can't use both) the seat shouldn't move more than an inch at the belt path.

A carseat check could definitly help you out.

RF'ing is much safer, good job!


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Well Alegna, I did pull the car's seatbelt as tight as I could when I first installed the carseat. But the LATCH system belts seemed to have slowly loosened it. I would have to show someone it in person for them to get the idea. The LATCH belts just get in the way period, they do not let the seat belt get as tight as it should. Maybe I'll try it again and see if I can make it tighter or something. The car is a 2007 Toyota Camry LE and the carseat is a Graco Comfortsport.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

I just went to my car and reinstalled the carseat and made the seatbelt go as tight as it can go. But I'm worried that the LATCH belts may loosen it again like they did last time. I hate the LATCH belts, what is the purpose of them? Are there cars nowadays that still don't have seatbelts? Is that why they were invented? I wish I could take a pair of scissors and cut through the ones on my carseat, but I don't think that's possible. I also think that my middle seat is a problem because it's raised up slightly higher than the side seats. Maybe I should just used the side seats, as long as they're just as safe.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

In searching for a picture to see what the problem might be, I found this recall-

http://www.gracobaby.com/SafetyAndRe...ll&recallID=21

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMacSanDiego* 
Well Alegna, I did pull the car's seatbelt as tight as I could when I first installed the carseat. But the LATCH system belts seemed to have slowly loosened it.

If it's locked, it shouldn't be able to loosen at all. Perhaps a tech can weigh in.

-Angela


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Thank you Angela, I was not aware of that recall. I've never received a recall notice in the mail from Graco. When I first went looking at carseats I wanted to buy him a Britax, but they're so expensive. I did not (and still don't) have the money for one. I went outside (about 2 hours ago) and I unhooked the LATCH belts and I'm back to just using the seatbelt. I also pulled the seatbelt as tight as it will go (like I did last time) and hopefully it will not loosen and tip. But I think the best thing to do would be to move it to one of the side rear seats. Because they're much more level, they're not raised up slightly like the middle rear seat is. I'm also going to see if I can afford a better carseat, does anyone have any suggestions?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Okey-doke... Couple things going on, I think... First, all the advice in the world online will not substitute getting the car seat checked. And if it tipped over, there is a problem! The ComfortSport is fine for now but if you want your DS to stay rear-facing as long as possible, you'll want to replace it, as the CS only has a 30lb rear facing limit. It has pretty low top slots and your child will probably out grow it before 3 anyway. So you will need to replace it but for now, it's probably fine!

First of all, you need to know if your seat belts are locked. Read your vehicle manual and find out how your belts lock. All newer cars have belts that lock in some way to install a car seat. I *think* Toyotas have switchable retractors, which means you pull your seat belt all the way and you often will hear a little click when you feed it back it will make a ratcheting noise and you can't pull it back out. This is the mode that 'traps' you if you are sitting in the back and lean over too far. You have to use this mode to install a car seat. This mode can (and often does) tighten up and will cause car seats to tip up on the side where the shoulder belt goes up into the car. However, you have LATCH, which should be easier to deal with. To use LATCH you need to make sure it is routed through the correct belt path (this is true also for the seat belt, but remember you can't use BOTH!!) you want the one labeled "rear facing." If you have to re-route the LATCH, be careful because it often tangles up on the harnessing straps. The LATCH then hooks onto the lower anchors in the vehicle pointing down to the ground. Make sure there are no twists in the strap and pull to tighten. It sometimes helps to pull back the fabric and tighten by pulling up through the belt path.

All of this said PLEASE GO GET YOUR SEAT CHECKED!!! I see a misuse rate around 97% at my events. I strongly encourage you to worry less about getting a new seat and more about getting it installed correctly!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

It sounds like you have the same kind of seat belts as I do, which are a PITA. The ones that lock only when you stop short? And the auto release without feeding the belt back in? They technically lock at the latchplate when the seatbelt is flat, because in that position you can't adjust the lap portion. My experience, though, is that when rearfacing, the lack of a lock on the shoulder belt portion makes it hard for the carseat to feel secure and sturdy. I use a locking clip, which really helps. Britax (which I have)has built in locking clips, but they don't work well in my van (they work fine in dh's wagon, where we don't really need them, because he has seatbelts that stay put at the shoulder!) Anyhow, even though the problem comes from slackness at the shoulder, the clip goes on the belt near the seat.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Please don't venture into using locking clips without seeing a tech. I've NEVER seen one used correctly when someone just tries to do it! They are used on lap and shoulder belts with an emergency locking retractor, and generally should not be used on a locking latchplate (where a piece moves on the part you buckle that pinches the belt and holds it tight). They literally work like a paper clip and hold our belt together until the emergency locking part kicks in. They will often spring off in a crash. Check your vehicle owners manual to see what kind of belts you have, it should indicate if a locking clip can be used. Improperly used locking clips can cause serious problems in a crash.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
It sounds like you have the same kind of seat belts as I do, which are a PITA. The ones that lock only when you stop short? And the auto release without feeding the belt back in? They technically lock at the latchplate when the seatbelt is flat, because in that position you can't adjust the lap portion. My experience, though, is that when rearfacing, the lack of a lock on the shoulder belt portion makes it hard for the carseat to feel secure and sturdy. I use a locking clip, which really helps. Britax (which I have)has built in locking clips, but they don't work well in my van (they work fine in dh's wagon, where we don't really need them, because he has seatbelts that stay put at the shoulder!) Anyhow, even though the problem comes from slackness at the shoulder, the clip goes on the belt near the seat.

Yes my seatbelts are a PITA. They do lock when you stop (or brake) suddenly, or if you yank on them. Your seatbelts do sound exactly like mine. I'll just buy him a new carseat since the one he has (Graco CS), has been recalled. I would love to get him a Britax, but they're so expensive. I'll also go to my CHP place and have them check the installation since they do that for free.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMacSanDiego* 
I just went to my car and reinstalled the carseat and made the seatbelt go as tight as it can go. But I'm worried that the LATCH belts may loosen it again like they did last time. I hate the LATCH belts, what is the purpose of them? Are there cars nowadays that still don't have seatbelts? Is that why they were invented? I wish I could take a pair of scissors and cut through the ones on my carseat, but I don't think that's possible. I also think that my middle seat is a problem because it's raised up slightly higher than the side seats. Maybe I should just used the side seats, as long as they're just as safe.

if you get to a check and are able to get the seat checked, you may find that using the LATCH is much easier.

i posted the recall notice earlier. i guess you didnt see my post.

good luck!


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

No I can't use the LATCH because it's not in the middle seat. He has to stay in the middle seat because the side door airbags can hurt him if they open too fast. There's even a warning on the car door frame that says so. So he's going to stay in the middle seat without the LATCH being used. I'm in a Catch 22 right now with this whole situation.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

That's odd that a car would have LATCH in a position unsafe to put a carseat. A 2007 should have safe airbags too.

A less expensive than a britax, yet fabulous carseat choice is the truefit.









-Angela


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## abomgardner417 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
Whether you use a seatbelt to install or LATCH (you can't use both) the seat shouldn't move more than an inch at the belt path.

Ok, at the risk of sounding really, really stupid...

Why can't you use both?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

The recall has to do with misrouted LATCH belts during the manufacture process. A tech can make sure they are now routed correctly. It's not a recall in the sense of "you now can't use it, it's recalled" like many car seat recalls, it's a relatively easily fixed thing. If you are using seat belts anyway, it doesn't matter. As far as the airbags, I am pretty certain that it is OK. Why would they put LATCH outboard that you couldn't use because of the airbags. They use to have door mounted bags that could pose a car seat problem, but now they are side curtain or pillars that are OK. Check your owner's manual to be sure. But I've never seen a newer car with side airbags that were NOT okay for car seats.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abomgardner417* 
Ok, at the risk of sounding really, really stupid...

Why can't you use both?

No stupid questions! It's good to know why! The short answer is because they aren't crash tested that way. The longer answer is that they belts can cause each other to not perform correctly and that they often mask install issues when used together, for instance, neither is correct but the seat feels tight.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

here is a recent thread about side air bags and carseats http://www.mothering.com/discussions...php?p=12825415


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
That's odd that a car would have LATCH in a position unsafe to put a carseat. A 2007 should have safe airbags too.

A less expensive than a britax, yet fabulous carseat choice is the truefit.









-Angela

I agree that a 2007 should have safer side airbags (and maybe it does). However there is a warning on the door frame. A warning saying not to sit too close to the door just in case the airbags open in the event of an accident. I know that side airbags are safer than the front seat airbags, but I'm not sure if I trust them with my little guy's safety.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Curtain airbags are fine







No worries.

-Angela


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

they dont install LATCH in places where you cant put a car seat. thats the ONLY reason for a LATCH in that position.
i used to be uncomfortable with ds3 in a seat other than the middle seat but we dont have a middle seat in my car now (had to get an SUV b/c of ds4) and so there is really no choice. and i do feel very safe (we have a very safe car but i also feel safe w/ teh air bag issues..and i think my car has as many air bags as any on the market).

it is much safer for him to be in an outboard seat with a proper install than for his seat to be moving around when you turn a corner.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Ok, well I'll put him in an outboard seat if I can't resolve the tipping issue. And yes I saw the link for the safety recall. Thank you PassionateWriter for posting that. I'm bringing the seat and the car (and Ryan, lol) to the Police Department tomorrow, they do the carseat safety checks there.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMacSanDiego* 
Ok, well I'll put him in an outboard seat if I can't resolve the tipping issue. And yes I saw the link for the safety recall. Thank you PassionateWriter for posting that. I'm bringing the seat and the car (and Ryan, lol) to the Police Department tomorrow, they do the carseat safety checks there.

I'm so glad you are going to get your seat checked. Let us know what you find out, okay? And you don't need to buy a new seat as the recall doesn't render your seat un-usable, you just need to re-route the LATCH belts if you do for some reason decide to do a LATCH install.


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## JenMacSanDiego (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyactsofcharity* 
I'm so glad you are going to get your seat checked. Let us know what you find out, okay? And you don't need to buy a new seat as the recall doesn't render your seat un-usable, you just need to re-route the LATCH belts if you do for some reason decide to do a LATCH install.









Ok thank you. I'll let everyone know what I find out. I might get in tomorrow, but I think I may need an appointment.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMacSanDiego* 
Ok, well I'll put him in an outboard seat if I can't resolve the tipping issue. And yes I saw the link for the safety recall. Thank you PassionateWriter for posting that. I'm bringing the seat and the car (and Ryan, lol) to the Police Department tomorrow, they do the carseat safety checks there.

oh great...my best friend's son's name is Ryan. its one of my favs! good luck!


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## abomgardner417 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
No stupid questions! It's good to know why! The short answer is because they aren't crash tested that way. The longer answer is that they belts can cause each other to not perform correctly and that they often mask install issues when used together, for instance, neither is correct but the seat feels tight.

Thank you...good to know. We got a new car and as I was putting the seats in I thought I should use both just to be safer, but I got lazy after struggling w/ the Latch stuff and didn't use the shoulder belts. Good thing!


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