# SOS! spanking debate,



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

This is a quote from a current spanking debate (somewhere else)Anyone have a nice read to help me out with? I find this just sickening. I am just about exhausted with the whole scene and could use something inspirational.









"They wave research that "clearly proves" that spanking destroys self-esteem, promotes violent behavior, and so on. The research stinks. All of it. There is not one study into the effects of spanking on children that's worth the paper it's written on. Every single one of them (I've reviewed them all, I think) is rife with design problems. This so-called research would be ridiculed in a sophomore course in experimental psychology.

In the first place, there is no research that tracks children who were spanked properly as opposed to improperly. To my knowledge, that distinction has never been made by any researcher. That reveals something important about many, if not most, of them so-called researchers. They're not doing research at all. They're trying to promote their own personal agendas. And they cloak this promotion, this shameless propaganda effort, in the guise of "science.""

thanks,
Lori


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Honestly this person is clearly going to regect any common sense and as hard as it pains me to know her children are suffering because of it I wouldn't waste an argument with her. How frustrating.

Deanna


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

whoo wait a second is someone on a current debate board wrtting this? Like its a mothers response written today or recently??

Deanna


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

The first thing that came to my mind was wondering if there are studies that prove that spanking has NO emotional effects, and if THEY are completely unflawed.
Let me think on this some more...

Quote:

In the first place, there is no research that tracks children who were spanked properly as opposed to improperly.
ewwww..... spanked properly???? Ugh. What exactly is the "proper" way to hit a child that looks to you for love and support? How do you hit a child without causing, at the very least, confusion as to how the person who is supposed to love them the most is causing them pain?

Yuck. But them I'm pretty sure none of that would make any sense to that, um, mom.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm

Quote:

1995: Corporal punishment and adult addiction and psychiatric problemssychiatric and addiction: Dr. Harriet McMillan of McMaster University in Hamilton, ON Canada led a six-person team which studied the possible association between childhood spanking and subsequent behavior problems in adulthood. 3 They based their study on data collected as part of a 1990 population health survey by the Ontario Ministry of Health of 10,000 adults in the province. Five thousand of the subjects had been asked questions about spanking during childhood. Unlike many previous studies, *the researchers deleted from the sample group anyone who recalled being physically or sexually abused. This left adults who had only been spanked and/or slapped during childhood*.

Quote:

Their results were published in the Canadian Medical Journal for 1995-OCT. 2 They reported that "there appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems."

Quote:

Robert E. Larzelere is the director of research at Boys Town, NE, and a skeptic of the anti-spanking position. He analyzed what he considered to be the eight strongest studies of corporal punishment (CP). 8 He found that they showed that spanking and other forms of violence short of actual abuse had "beneficial outcomes." However, the study seems almost without value when closely examined:
Seven of the eight studies measured only the child's short term compliance to the parent's request. There is probably a consensus among therapists, child psychologists, researchers and parents that spanking does make the child behave, at least for a little while. What these studies did not examine are the long-term effects of spanking observed by other studies: increasing non-compliance by the child, increased anti-social behavior with other children, and long range emotional and addictive problems as an adult. It is worth noting that in five of the seven cases, the effectiveness of spanking was compared to alternative methods of discipline. Spanking offered no advantages.
The eighth study did show long-term beneficial results from spanking. However it dealt only with a single child who had a severe conduct disorder, and who might be suffering from schizophrenia. Thus, one cannot extrapolate the study's results to the general population of children. In addition, most of the study dealt with training the mother to reinforce the child's positive behaviors and to be more confident and consistent in issuing commands to the child. One might speculate that an equivalent or even better beneficial result might have been observed if the spanking were replaced by an alternative form of discipline.
Also, if she believes that spanking is ok, why is she studying the possible effects?
Anyways, my position on spanking has nothing to do with studies or long term effects. It's a human rights issue. It's just wrong to hit kids (anybody, really). Period.

eta:

Quote:

Opponents of spanking point out that what has traditionally been regarded as reasonable chastisement would be regarded as assault if carried out on an adult. Many years ago, it was legal for a man to use physical force to "chastise" his wife, an act now regarded as domestic violence and illegal.
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en.../spanking.html


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

I'll spare us the bs. We are in a current debate where some mothers understand why alternatives to spanking is the only way to parent. And other mothers feel that spanking "works for their family" and they have the right to decide their parenting choices. Others feel they don't spank, but do/has popped, swat, smack, tapped, their (I hate to say it) babies. It is so typical for all the hitters to justify their right/ decision and are so defensive that the nonspankers consider it irresponsible. The quote I gave above is to give you all, a taste of what we are up against. I don't want any on-the-fencers to have that kind of lasting impression. (spanking doesn't hurt, and nonspankers have swollen egos---it actually said that, too) A mother from the debate brought in that quote as she found it and thought it was interesting to share with us, in an effort to convince us all that no one is right and from what it sounds, we shouldn't care about what others do to their children. My immediate response IRL was far louder than what I wrote: I didn't research scientific evidence on the effects of spanking....I listened to my very own heart. And really, that is ALL it takes. The alternatives to spanking then comes through support, like here, and a will to want to. It is all so simple to me, but there really are parents still out there that don't know better/ have never heard of anything else. Communication is so rewarding and easy once we practice. The more we practice, the more we show respect and love, foster confidence and independence, and the more children can think wisely for themselves. How do we get through to people???? Like I said, I can't let that post leave a lasting negative impression on the potentially changing moms. It all just totally grosses me out!

Thank you very much for the quotes, I'll get right into them! Would it be breaking an internet law to tell you where the battleground is? lol. You all are so experienced. I am fairly new to this.

Sincerely,
Lori


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Yea it grossed me out also, while I won't waste much breath with that lady I would speak up for others reading. I questioned the ladies response because that was part of an article written a few years back I'll give you a link if needed and some to some non spanking arguments.

Deanna


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
Would it be breaking an internet law to tell you where the battleground is? lol. You all are so experienced. I am fairly new to this.

Sincerely,
Lori

Yes it would!

The MDC User Agreement states:

Quote:

5. Posting to invite members to other boards for *debate purposes* or *posting about discussions at other boards.* This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities.
The reason for this is to prevent members from going to other boards to debate a specific issue. Picture this, someone finds MDC who is a pro spanker and has pro spanking friends. They talk and decide to come here and post research claiming that spanking is the way to raise kids, that is stops bad behavior and teaches kids how to function in the world. Members here post back, defending Gentle Discipline and an arguement ensues. The pro spankers are only here to debate spanking and not here to become members of the community. This is trolling behavior and we don't allow it as it disrespects the integrity of our board. Likewise, we want to respect the integrity of other boards too.

If you know of an online situation you would like to discuss or get input on further information you can communicate, please pose your situation in a general fashion. You will still get good feedback I am sure. It is not necessary to state that it is at another website. It is actually against the user agreement to do so - see the bold text quoted above.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Yeah, I didn't want to start any trouble. I wanted to make it clear that the problem is somewhere else, so no need to go looking around MDC. No matter where the people come from to discuss this topic, it creates the largest threads and heated discussions. I think heated discussions are a bit healthy, because usually when we let out some emotions, it leads to new thoughts and hopefully, eventually anyways, a change of heart. It is kinda like when a child has a fit, but when they are all done, they have a new thought or understanding of what frustrated them.

Vice-versa, it wouldn't cause any trouble on the other end for MDC'rs to show up, because it's goal isn't discipline. It is just the topic. KWIM? And, definitely, if the wrong minds showed up here, they would be in for an "awakening". Not such a bad thing. IMO.














:LOL

Still though....no law breaking here. I was half-way kidding.

Thanks again Moms/ dads for your input.
Lori


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

The END. I am happy to announce that a prospanker wants to agree to post as many other alternatives to spanking. WOO HOO. Good thing.

I shared some quotes and other links and well, that was too much factual information I think. So, good thing...MDC helped to open some minds!

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!








Lori


----------



## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer*
Yes it would!

The MDC User Agreement states: .....

Oh ooops! I am new too and I did this in another discussion before... No one called me on it though, but I will try not to do it again!


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
MDC helped to open some minds!










Good deal. Ya gotta love it when that happens


----------



## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

As far as I'm concerned, "research" no matter what it stands for is always, always biases somehow.
IMO, Instinct is not.
I only follow my instincts, never research.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Woo-hoo Lori! Way to go mama







I never had even that much luck


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

I was curious about the quote in your OP, which you said came from someone else. Apparently it comes from an organized debate among 'profesionals' about 'Should spanking be considered child abuse?' which appeared in a book called Debating Children's Lives (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...3335?v=glance).

This particular debate (or at least part of it) appears with this quote on a website. The specific quote above came from a psychologist named John K. Rosemond, whose bio is listed.

http://146.186.181.213/213/resourcepages/Spanking.htm

Thought you might find it interesting. Here is what this same author says earlier in the article:

Quote:

So, what do I believe? I believe that spankings are a lousy form of discipline. In fact, I believe they do not warrant being classed as discipline at all. At best, a spanking is nothing more, nothing less, than a dramatic form of nonverbal communication. It is a means of getting the attention of a child who needs to give that attention quickly; of terminating a behavior that is rapidly escalating out of control; of putting an exclamation point in front of a message the child needs to hear.
Basically in this article he tries to re-define what he thinks of as acceptable spanking as not punishment or discipline, but (when done 'right', according to his definition) as simply a means of getting someone's attention. It's merely 'dramatic', rather than 'abusive' in his words.

This is typical of the pro-spank defenders - they re-define spanking to include *only their* definition (one spank only, rarely done, done immediately, with the hand only, etc. etc.) and then attack the large body of evidence that clearly shows the harmful effects of spanking based on this re-definition by saying the study's definition of spanking wasn't narrow enough.

I do find it interesting, though, that in the end his article turns the whole question about spanking into a political debate. Those darned do-gooder, commie liberals just want to tell everyone else what to do. He makes it out to be a question of personal liberty (I'll decide what to do with my children, thank you very much). Just as it was when women were property and husbands could feel free to beat them.


----------



## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

Sadly Its true Its almost imposable to find an unbiased spanking study everyone seems to have there agenda and gather the information that suports there side. Its interesting that people say childhood spanking can lead to adult depression and alcahol abuse, there was a russean study done that showed whipping adults has been proven to cure just those things.


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)




----------



## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
This particular debate (or at least part of it) appears with this quote on a website. The specific quote above came from a psychologist named John K. Rosemond, whose bio is listed.

http://146.186.181.213/213/resourcepages/Spanking.htm

I HATE HIM! His column runs on our paper each Monday. It makes me want to uke The first sentence almost always talks about respecting kids and working with them to promote life skills. Then he goes on to talk about why we should banish our kids to their rooms for a whole day to teach them a lesson. Yeah, that is going to give them internal controls.

This discussion mentions a book that would be nice to recommend to your other board.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=344150


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I too am not a Rosemund fan, as I've said in other places on this board. Unfortunately, I have to (mostly) agree with the actual quote in the OP. But then, its not just true of spanking vs. not research. Vast amounts of research, especially into children's behaviour, is deeply flawed. You can find it in both anti- and pro-spanking studies, as well as a host of other such topics. Really good research is really hard to do. And when looking at the impact something (anything) has on children, it really needs to go for many years. Needless to say, it doesn't happen very often.

But, since when was social science research "THE answer" to how we should raise our kids. I mean, if some study came out tomorrow that suggested that organic food caused brain damage (just a wild example), would we change the way we shopped? I know that I wouldn't because the conclusion doesn't square with my knowledge of the world. Likewise, if someone came out with a good study that said that spanking was the answer, I still wouldn't do it. It doesn't feel right, it doesn't pass the "common sense" test for me. And I have just enough ego (OK, maybe too much, but that's a different post) to trust myself and my own conclusions more than "research". Too bad more people don't listen to their hearts instead of some agenda-driven "expert".


----------



## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

When I was preg, I read the book Tomorrow's Baby by Thomas Kearny, newer title by the author of Secret Life of the Unborn Child ... and, while I have never been pro-spanking (I was one of the kids IN that study about errant behavior being linked to corporal punishment), one quote in the book was enough for me....

"Spanking is the seed of war..."

The quote was from, I believe, Sophaclese (help, dunno the spelling, but sound it out! :LOL )

The chapter went on tho discuss how OTHER societies manage to parent without corporal punishment, and do not have incidents of rape, assault, nor violent interactions with neighboring societies. If others can function as a society, without hitting their children, the very foundation of culture at large, why is it so difficult for westerners??

I REMEMBER being about 8, and yelling at my mom that it's WRONG to use the body in anger.... she looked at me like I had 10 heads, and promptly gave me sound thump with the back of her hand. Today, she is a lovely woman, a wonderful Nana, and full of regret. She sees, now, how it ought to have been.


----------

