# hitting at MOMS club



## RaRa7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Went to MOM"S club today and my ds has a thing w/ hitting.
There is one mom there who I really clash with. Ds decided it was HER ds's turn to be hit (unprovoked).
I felt like she gave me the "hairy eyeball" and she said "oh my".
But I said the same as I always do:"no hitting, Ari-hitting hurts"

I just want to scream there sometimes b/c I cannot stand the way these moms punish their children( I left early b/c I felt so unwelcome)
But at the same time doing what I am doing/saying is having NO effect (after more than 9 months!)

Any tips?







:


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

How old is Ari? I am taking it he's quite young? 2-3 maybe...from what you've described he sounds in that age range or a tad younger yet maybe









I really don't think your going to find a quick fix and it sounds like you are 'saying' the right thing...but what are you actually 'doing'? Does that make sense?

I am not coming down on your child, *I* know this is age normal behavior so please don't take it that way ok?







I am sure some of the other mothers are getting 'tired' of the same child hitting all the time...you did say he has a real problem with it.

I guess that after 9 months of the same thing and that you know it is a problem I would either 1) stop going until he grows out of the chronic hitting stage 2) always leave immediately when he starts hitting because to be totally honest if the same little boy who has been hitting over and over hit my child I would not come back. Now if it was an occasional instance that's one thing...but if the child really has a problem with it, I feel personally that more needs to be done so it doesn't happen as in either not going, or really watching him like a hawk and leaving the minute you 'think' he is going to hit or immediately when he does.

Best wishes! I know this can be reallllly hard! My 2nd child a boy, was a chronic hitter/biter at age 18 months - 3.5 yrs old so I HAVE been where you are and am not condeming you at all....just trying to see both sides and the realities..there is no quick fix therefore you as the mom need to do what you can to not allow him to hurt others because at this age he truly doesn't understand what hurting others is so the ball is in your court to protect other children since you KNOW that your child has continual problem.

ETA: I see your little one is a real young 2 in your sig line! :LOL


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

My 2+ year experience with MOMS club has taught me this:

It is only ok for the moms to hit.









Is there a more AP group that you could join?


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arismommy*
Went to MOM"S club today and my ds has a thing w/ hitting.
There is one mom there who I really clash with. Ds decided it was HER ds's turn to be hit (unprovoked).
I felt like she gave me the "hairy eyeball" and she said "oh my".
But I said the same as I always do:"no hitting, Ari-hitting hurts"

I just want to scream there sometimes b/c I cannot stand the way these moms punish their children( I left early b/c I felt so unwelcome)
But at the same time doing what I am doing/saying is having NO effect (after more than 9 months!)

Any tips?







:

I don't know anything about the MOMS Club but I sympathize. My very large, active, strong 2.3 year old has been doing this "big hug that turns into wrestling and sometimes a neckhold thing" for about a month now. He does it to kids he really likes or finds cute. It's not a mean thing..but it's inappropriate and I am really tired of it. I do the same thing you do..."No touching the neck, gentle, etc." Not working. Not the kind of thing you can ignore when someone else's kid is involved! I have to shadow him constantly. It is at the point where one of our close friends doesn't even want to watch my son for 1/2 hour on Mon. while I go to the OB office that is right across the street from her house. I don't blame her...I just feel awful that it is becoming such a problem and I wish I knew what to do to stop it.

I'm sorry you had a neg. experience at that group and I hope you find a better one. Also hope we get some advice and reassurance here!


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## RaRa7 (Feb 29, 2004)

just want to clarify that these weren't hits that hurt physically-- he barely swatted him-(not that this makes a difference to ds)
BUT- I am curious to know what the lot of you think--Should I take him out of the room?
Should I quit going to MOM'S til I know he's over it?
See-I was just treating it as a phase--say the words, hopefully he'd get it and that's that.
But it's been a long time and nothing's changed so, not really sure what action I should take?
Just to let you know, MOMS club is not my cup o'tea and I also belong to an AP playgroup but we rarely go, unfortunately, as these are the mammas I connect with, b/c they are at weird times............


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Well, I'm on the other side of the fence here. We have a hitter/pusher in our Mom's Group too. Thing is, it's not my dd. She's usually on the receiving end. I was just asking my dh tonight if he thought the other child's mom should be doing something more than just saying "No hitting. That hurts so-and-so." It just doesn't seem to be working.

Thing is, I don't know what you're supposed to do. But if it was my dd I think it be reading lots of books right now and trying to figure out some techniques that might be helpful.

I really don't want to see this Mom and her babe stop coming. It really upsets the Mom when her dd does this...but at the same time trying to diffuse the situation all the time is wearing a bit thin for all of us.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I'm on the other side too & fully AP, and honestly, I get very aggravated when aggressive toddlers hit/kick/push my kid when the mother/parent knows that their child is prone to doing these things & does nothing to prevent it. See, my Emma is totally not aggressive at all, and I am not in a hurry for her to learn these behaviors. I think that if you know your kid is a hitter, you do need to shadow them and try and predict when they are going to do it and then do your best to PREVENT it, rather than just telling them that's not the way to behave AFTER they've done it, sure it might sink in after awhile but this is at the expense of a bunch of other kids being treated aggressively. I guess it's easy to say what I'd do when I'm not in that situation, but what I think I'd do, is watch my kid very closely for warning signs that s/he is going to act this way and make it my mission to intercept before his/her swats landed on other kids, rather than reacting after it had happened.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
I'm on the other side too & fully AP, and honestly, I get very aggravated when aggressive toddlers hit/kick/push my kid when the mother/parent knows that their child is prone to doing these things & does nothing to prevent it. See, my Emma is totally not aggressive at all, and I am not in a hurry for her to learn these behaviors. I think that if you know your kid is a hitter, you do need to shadow them and try and predict when they are going to do it and then do your best to PREVENT it, rather than just telling them that's not the way to behave AFTER they've done it, sure it might sink in after awhile but this is at the expense of a bunch of other kids being treated aggressively. I guess it's easy to say what I'd do when I'm not in that situation, but what I think I'd do, is watch my kid very closely for warning signs that s/he is going to act this way and make it my mission to intercept before his/her swats landed on other kids, rather than reacting after it had happened.

My son is the wrestler, not the hitter, but it still is something that needs to stop. I have been reading and thinking and reading and thinking and yes, I shadow him constantly. The behavior lasts for about the first 20 min. of a playgroup. Then his excitement and exuberance at seeing his friends calms a bit. When it happens, he and his little friends run at top speed and the other moms and I have to run at warp speed to catch up. Or it starts on top of the playscape and I have to climb up there at 39 weeks pregnant and stop it! It's very hard to prevent the behavior but I try to stay right there whenever possible. I am not one to sit on the sidelines and chat and ignore things.

I almost feel like keeping him out of playgroups right now although that makes me very sad. It will deprive him of seeing his friends and limit his social skills. He really LOVES his friends. He isn't trying to be mean, he's just clueless about social skills and boundaries. But I don't know what to do. I know if he were the one on the receiving end, I'd feel annoyed too. But there was a time when he wasn't doing this, and sometimes a big boy would boss him or take toys away, etc. You never know when the shoe is going to be on the other foot!

If there are any other ideas out there, I'd love to hear them!


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## RaRa7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks, I'll have to try shadowing him--since it's unprovoked I wonder if I'll even know when he is about to do it???
I just finished and am now re-reading "Easy to Love, DIfficult to Discipline" and love it--any other suggestions on what I can read?
Thanks, mammas


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## robinkate (May 5, 2005)

I am starting to have this problem with my dd. It is so stressful to try to teach her what to do and worry about the other kids and what their moms think too! Usually the behavior just comes out of the blue. The one thing I've noticed is that some days she is fine with a group of kids, but when she's not, she'll probably hit or pull hair more than once. So it makes sense to leave after one incident. Also, I am trying to go late to playgroups and leave early so she doesn't have as much time to get overwhelmed. Have you tried making playdates with just one other kid? Maybe he would do better when not as much is going on?
Good luck, hope you find a solution that works for you,
Robin
mama to Alexandra 21 months


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

When I thought my child would hit, I would stay very close at all times and not let him hit. There is nothing wrong with physically restraining a child from hurting another (or touching another child who doesn't want to be touched). I also did things like leave if my ds was getting out of control. I would be annoyed if another mother didn't try to prevent a habitual hitter from hitting, though I don't get unduly upset at such behavior from a 2 year old either.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

But HOW are you saying it?

It is it a VERY SERIOUS (don't mean yelling, just deep) voice with you holding his shoulders or waist (gentl) and making eye contact?

Are you apologizing on his behalf (if he can't do this himself)?

This is the "standard" for dealing with this behavior in the mom's groups I have been in. These are not AP, though spanking is just "not done" in my circles.

If someone is just saying "no hitting" in a chipper or not super serious voice and/or not apologizing, THAT is when the moms get resentful. And if it happend more than maybe twice, around here that would be a sign you need to leave that particular day.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Speaking for myself and my own situation, I do ask my son to apologize. He is able to say sorry now even if he doesn't totally understand what it means. I do use a firm, serious tone of voice--not harsh or yelling. I usually lead him away from the group to talk to him. We discuss inappropriate touching. I have removed him from the group temporarily. I am thinking maybe we are going to have to start leaving the group altogether when this happens. That is such a PITA--you plan for a playgroup or playdate, the kids are all excited, and then you leave 5 min. later? If it would work, I guess it would be worth it.

What WOULD be the real AP way to deal with this? I get the sense that some very AP people, myself inc., suddenly become a little less AP in this type of situation.

It IS good to hear from moms on both sides here. It's really hard to be in this position. One mother at the playscape called my son a "ruffian" the other day right within his earshot. He may not know what it means, but I'm sure he could catch her drift. What she doesn't know is that he is also the first child to say "Oh no" and rush over to help a child who falls, and he is also eager to share and doesn't snatch toys from others. I know people make judgements based on the current behaviors that they see, but I think they do it all too easily...


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

I like lots of the advice already given . . . using a serious voice, apologizing on his behalf if he can't/won't do it himself, shadowing . . . If I were you I would leave immediately if he hit. 9 months seems like a pretty long time and I think doing something sort of drastic like that might help the message to sink it for him. I'd apologize, remind him that hitting hurts, gather him up and say goodbye. On the way to the car/stroller/whatever I would let him know that you are leaving because he was hitting and that you can't allow him to be around other children if he is going to hit them.
I've never really had to deal with that, but it seems like I'd do something like that.
Good luck!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbowbird*
My son is the wrestler, not the hitter, but it still is something that needs to stop. I have been reading and thinking and reading and thinking and yes, I shadow him constantly. The behavior lasts for about the first 20 min. of a playgroup. Then his excitement and exuberance at seeing his friends calms a bit. When it happens, he and his little friends run at top speed and the other moms and I have to run at warp speed to catch up. Or it starts on top of the playscape and I have to climb up there at 39 weeks pregnant and stop it! It's very hard to prevent the behavior but I try to stay right there whenever possible. I am not one to sit on the sidelines and chat and ignore things.

And if I saw you doing all of this and your son still did his thing to Emma, I probably wouldn't be angry about it, I'd respect that you where trying and I'd probably try and help you prevent it by shadowing Emma. I understand that aggression is normal toddler behavior, but I also think they need to be taught better social skills as opposed to allowing them to continue the poor behavior.

I mean, once kids are older to a certain point the parents have to back off and let kids learn how to fend for themselves to a certain extent...but when we're talking about toddlers words alone just don't work and I think the parent should be watching to intercept the swing before it makes contact with other kids, if they are aware that a swing is likely to take place.

I know it's possible, when Emma has experimented with pinching me I've usually been able to intercept it, it's not perfect, but mostly very effective, and there's no drama and words happening, I just simply don't let her do it and it's a non-issue. When I'm around other parents who I feel are too lax about their toddler's physical aggression to my small toddler, I'm usually the one intercepting their swings/kicks/shoves at my kid, so again, I know it works but some parents don't seem to be proactive enough in preventing it, which I admit, makes my blood boil when it is my little girl, who is still imho, a baby being the recepient of uncalled for aggression. Emma is very affectionate and loves to hug other kids, often the kid doesn't want to be hugged, I watch her body language and can see when she is about to hug someone, if the someone looks like they don't want to be hugged I swoop in on Emma and hug her myself, get her giggling, then put her back down, interception of the space invading toddler complete, with no lecture/negativity required, either for her, or for a kid who didn't want to be hugged!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
My 2+ year experience with MOMS club has taught me this:

It is only ok for the moms to hit.









Is there a more AP group that you could join?

Hey now - not all MOMS clubs are the same!! I've just started one - we meet for the first time on Tuesday and I've invited all the Moms from LLL to join and hoping it will be a mix of AP and mainstream Mammas. Please don't go giving MOMS Clubs a bad name before I even get going!!


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
My 2+ year experience with MOMS club has taught me this:

It is only ok for the moms to hit.









Is there a more AP group that you could join?


you're funny! these are the 2 things that MOMS club tuaght me and i never joined! i went to my 2 free meetings to see if i wanted to join. snacks that were provided both times were cookies and kool aid. only thing the moms were discussing was husband bashing, and just recently while we at the park, a MOMS group was also meeting there. here is how my conversation went with one of the moms:

(i was discussing midwife stuff with another mom friend i was at the park with)

MOMS club mom asks "oh, are you having a natural birth?"

me: actually i am having a home birth.

her in a nasty tone: good luck with that one. if i dodn't have epidurals with both my boys i would have killed someone.

wow, thanks for sharing!

anyway, i got off topic...to op, my 2 yo ds went through a phase where he was hitting children and being mean to animals. i was so concerned but every mom told me that it's just a stage that most boys through and if i just stay consistent he will get over it. it was so hard to trust them! it was their children he was hitting. (i belong to an AP moms group that i met through yahoo groups). he has finally gotten over it! it took a few months. he still has spells where he and another child will get into a screaming match over a toy but we all jsut stay consistent with not allowing that behavior. it's nice that no one in the group spanks their kids, we all just take care of it verbally and redirect! redirect! redirect!

it does work, i swear! it just takes patience.

good luck!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

A nonAP friend of mine has told me that boys hit each other, this is to be expected, and that if Simon plays with her boys, he will be hit. Her take on it is that they need to toughen up and "deal with it." Nope. Ain't gonna happen. I take hitting VERY seriously. Simon does not deserve to be hit by anyone, ever, and has no right to do this to others. If he goes through a hitting phase, I will be within arm's reach whenever there is even the slightest hint that he might hit someone.

I don't do the really mean voice thing, er, I mean really strict voice thing. As my wording suggests, it comes off as mean to me -- especially since the child isn't really misbehaving, but is instead learning what is right and what is wrong. I don't feel right using it. To me, it's the verbal equivalent of holding a child with an almost uncomfortably tight grip. It comes off as a fear tactic and use of power. We'll see how this works over time. I've had no need to use a stern voice so far. Note: there is also a serious voice, which need not be stern, and can be more appropriate to the situation described. In this situation, I imagine my voice would have a mixture of surprise and sadness in it. By contrast, the stern voice seems to convey anger and intense disapproval; I hear it as a "you are bad" tone. Perhaps some variant of a serious, but not stern voice is what the others have meant all along and the type of talking that is coming to mind isn't anything people here advocate. (I am very sensitive and analytical, hence my attention to these nuances.)


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Hey now - not all MOMS clubs are the same!! I've just started one - we meet for the first time on Tuesday and I've invited all the Moms from LLL to join and hoping it will be a mix of AP and mainstream Mammas. Please don't go giving MOMS Clubs a bad name before I even get going!!









I just joined one! And although I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find a soulmate / best friend type of person there, for the most part most of the moms are alright.

No one has batted an eye at my BFing my one year old.

Although I did laugh quite a bit at the advice the "experienced" moms gave the new mom of a 5 month old last week. Her son is going through the attachment phase to his mother and evidently, the father works out of the home for many hours a day. The mom is tired and touched out. So she asked for advice.

The majority of moms there said to just, "Give the baby to your DH as soon as he walks in the door and go for a massage or something. Take back some ME time."

Alright now. First of all, an attachment to mom is a GOOD thing. Draining at times, yes. But if I didn't want the challenge of being a good mother, I'd just have gotten another cat.

And second of all, it's normal for my DH to work 16 hour days too. I cannot imagine handing him a baby and saying, "Massage time for me! I'll be back in a few hours!" upon his walking through the door. Half the time, I just make him some soup and remind him where the bedroom is so he can take a nap.







Hand him my BABY? Um, no. I couldn't be sure he wouldn't drop her out of exhaustion!!

I did look carefully around the room and saw other people looking slightly horrified at the advice though.

Jen


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

i think the "ap" thing to do, if i may be so bold as to speak for ap, is to use a firm but calm voice to say "you may not hit" BUT this has to occur in concert with very close shadowing. think of your child as "blind" (socially blind) and you have to be right there. "saying "go this way!" really doesn't help unless you steer them that way, kwim? words themselves cannot do it. the words are simply there to teach your kid "this is a limit/boundary" - however, they are incapable of stopping based solely on that information. you must follow through with modelling. AND...you owe it to them to not place them in situations where you/they are bound to fail. go to smaller playgroups, or areas without climby things you can't get to. start out small, work on these skills then move up to bigger "challenges". yes, i very much beleive the answer is....stop going. its not fair to anybody right now.

baby steps...that's how we get there...


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
i think the "ap" thing to do, if i may be so bold as to speak for ap, is to use a firm but calm voice to say "you may not hit" BUT this has to occur in concert with very close shadowing. think of your child as "blind" (socially blind) and you have to be right there. "saying "go this way!" really doesn't help unless you steer them that way, kwim? words themselves cannot do it. the words are simply there to teach your kid "this is a limit/boundary" - however, they are incapable of stopping based solely on that information. you must follow through with modelling. AND...you owe it to them to not place them in situations where you/they are bound to fail. go to smaller playgroups, or areas without climby things you can't get to. start out small, work on these skills then move up to bigger "challenges". yes, i very much beleive the answer is....stop going. its not fair to anybody right now.

baby steps...that's how we get there...









Well, according to your definitions, I'm doing it the AP way. What discourages me is that it is happening even with one other child on a playdate.

He treats our cat the same way. "Kitty, kitty, kitty! Cuddle! Cuddle! Kitty! (Cat gets a huge hug and gets mauled inthe process). It's overzealous affection, not aggression, thank God, but still, it is unwanted. He just gets so excited when he sees his pals...hug hug hug....squeeze...both boys fall to floor...DS keeps hugging...etc.

I have to be RIGHT there to either intercept the hug or pry him off the child after an appropriate length of time. It doesn't help that he is bigger than every kid his age, and some that are a lot older. At 27mos. he is 36 inches tall, 35 lbs., and very strong. So it is very easy for him to knock someone over. But still, not making excuses here, I am obviously going to keep trying to teach him the appropriate skills. He has a GOOD heart and is so affectionate. I don't want to squelch that. I just need to find a way to teach him how to show his feelings appropriately.

But if it's happening even in a one-on-one, where do we practice? Take a break from socializing for awhile and hope it improves in a month? I think he'll go batty without seeing his friends. As will I!


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Quote:

He has a GOOD heart and is so affectionate. I don't want to squelch that. I just need to find a way to teach him how to show his feelings appropriately.
Yes, this is very important. I do agree that the playgroup meetings should cease for a time, but during that time, you have a great opportunity to teach him the social skills he needs to succeed in these situations. I would work intensively to teach him appropriate ways of expressing affection. You can do lots of exercises with him. Examples are going through good touch/bad touch, teaching him to give high-fives, shake hands, express affection verbally, etc. Those are just a few ideas I could think of right now. I would definitely focus on what TO do, to teach him good social skills.

Regarding the cat, or pets in general, this is a topic very close to my heart. In my home, children who have not learned basic gentle touch skills do not come within two feet of an animal. As innocent as the children are, and as unaware as they are of their actions causing harm, I simply cannot allow an animal to be hurt while they learn. Even when I determine that the child is well versed on gentle touch, and has developed decent impulse control, I still do not allow unsupervised play with animals for at least a few more years. Children have the right to be guided gently and lovingly....and animals have the right to be safe from harm during the process.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

mamasadie said:


> Yes, this is very important. I do agree that the playgroup meetings should cease for a time, but during that time, you have a great opportunity to teach him the social skills he needs to succeed in these situations.
> 
> 
> mamasadie said:
> ...


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## tinawoman (Feb 28, 2003)

shadow shadow shadow...its exhausting but often necessary. and follow through with consequences in a matter of fact (vs angry) way...easier said then done, believe me i know! but i've found that the times that i AM able to do this, it really works tremendously...oh and tell the child ahead of time what you expect at the playdate...and what the consequence is if he chooses to hit...and practicing it...do a role play and try out a few situations at home when no one else is around...modelling and walking him through the appropriate behavior...and then going to the playdate, remind him of the expected behavior, consequences, etc...and follow follow through (very important!)...i would probably give one warning, coupled with actually modelling the behavior either yourself or showing him "gentle touches" with his own hand...but then scoop him up and leave if he chooses to still engage in the unacceptable behavior, despite a warning. this would be for any undesirable behavior. some children will get it right away...some will require more than one or 2 occasions to figure it out and i would imagine there are some children that this might not work with cuz they are all different, of course...but i think if it works, it works quite well. i've had to do this with my daughter and even when she was quite little she got it pretty quick.

but all children are different, i've learned!







like the sharp, firm voice that works on some kids does NOT work with mine AT ALL...just upsets her and gets her to do just what i DON'T want her to do, out of defiance...which of course, those of the mind that this should work with all kids think i'm just leniant with her..uh, no, i just know my child...modelling, consequences and playful parenting work WAAAAAAAAAAAY better with mine than strict, harsh tones....

speaking of playful parenting, check out my sig!! he's coming to chat with us again!!! WOOHOO!!!!

your question would be a good one for dr cohen! i'd love to hear what he has to say about a possible solution!


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## laurenalanna (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for all your thoughts on this subject. My little one is just starting to hit and bite, so I'm taking notes for the future.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Quote:

he appears to ENJOY some of the rough and tumble abuse my son hands out before I can catch up to them. The cat is really not helping me out in this case! He never seems to get mad!
:LOL :LOL :LOL

Well, it's better than having an ornery kitty.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

*Tina - Of mommychats*....your siggy says Wednesday May 16th, but today is Monday and the 16th, is the chat today (looks like it's in progress,in my time zone?) or on Wednesday? You might want to fix your siggy! (I'll go check your site)


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
I'm on the other side too & fully AP, and honestly, I get very aggravated when aggressive toddlers hit/kick/push my kid when the mother/parent knows that their child is prone to doing these things & does nothing to prevent it. See, my Emma is totally not aggressive at all, and I am not in a hurry for her to learn these behaviors. I think that if you know your kid is a hitter, you do need to shadow them and try and predict when they are going to do it and then do your best to PREVENT it, rather than just telling them that's not the way to behave AFTER they've done it, sure it might sink in after awhile but this is at the expense of a bunch of other kids being treated aggressively. I guess it's easy to say what I'd do when I'm not in that situation, but what I think I'd do, is watch my kid very closely for warning signs that s/he is going to act this way and make it my mission to intercept before his/her swats landed on other kids, rather than reacting after it had happened.

I'm glad I read this post and do not intend to hijack it, but feel hopeless.

DD has been in a childcare setting (where I work) for the past year. She is a hitter and a hair puller, and..she is 4 yrs old (turned in February). I have taken away toys, movies, did the "hitting-hurts" routine- which we still do, but nothing has changed. Well, yes, things have changed. She started to improve, and was doing really well with her teachers (2 of them and they are always in the classroom- no trading or bumping kids to different rooms) until about a month ago when my replacement came in. Kailey has started being more aggressive and more easily frustrated with her classmates. She now throws incredible tantrums at home which thenk goodness we are dealing with and working through quite well, using consistency and calmness.

I do not want her hitting other children. It happens when she perceives them as taking something she feels is hers or that she was using. She likes to play alone and when her space is invades she gets defensive. I have shadowed her and see this as a pattern.

This afternoon while I was in another room, her new teacher brought her to me and said, "she was kicking tables and it was waking other children up." So...how would she hadnle it if I were not an employee who she could just drop my child off with? I don't think what she did was appropriate. Why not offer Kailey something quite to do, such as coloring, or puzzles? I was really infuriated.

Anyway, how do we stop the hitting...it's been a year?

BTW she is in speach therap and has trouble expressing herself, her therapist says the agreesion is part of that frustration, her other teachers understood that.

HELP!! ok, this is sincere hijack. Sorry.


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## RaRa7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Oh-I don't mind if you hijacked the thread, Potty Diva--I posted to learn from you all


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Emma is very affectionate and loves to hug other kids, often the kid doesn't want to be hugged, I watch her body language and can see when she is about to hug someone, if the someone looks like they don't want to be hugged I swoop in on Emma and hug her myself, get her giggling, then put her back down, interception of the space invading toddler complete, with no lecture/negativity required, either for her, or for a kid who didn't want to be hugged!

This is my dd too! She is 15 mo old. I usually say "Sara doesn't want a hug right now" and redirect her but I love the idea of giving her a hug instead...thanks.

My dd is also on the receiving end. In fact the other day she tried hugging a little boy who was upset but didn't want a hug and he pushed her down hard...I didn't get to them in time to intervene







It broke my heart. I don't want her to think that this behavior is ok. I feel so bad for her and don't really know what to say to either party as this is all new to me. I know I need to overshadow her more closely to intervene.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbowbird*
It's overzealous affection, not aggression, thank God, but still, it is unwanted. He just gets so excited when he sees his pals...hug hug hug....squeeze...both boys fall to floor...DS keeps hugging...etc.

Ahhh, I was of the impression at first that this was more an agression thing. I think I understand now. In fact, a very good friend of mine just brought this up at a recent LLL meeting: her 2.5 year old is almost 50 lbs, a very big boy since birth, and his affections can really bowl over most kids...

I have not had to deal with this situation. I do know that I'm a punishment-free parent, so giving my child warnings and then leaving would not be in the repertoire. I prefer to think that the child is unable to control himself, than to consider it some kind of wilful disobedience that can be changed with a punishment. I would view the situation as your child being unable to control himself "in the moment" because his emotions take over. His joy, excitement, energy, affection....all wonderful qualities that, as the OP says, one doesn't want to squelch. My course of action would be alot of role-playing, alot of discussing emotions, how to recognize what we are feeling, things to do. I know that, in my own experience, visualizing has helped me parent better "in the moment" when my emotions take over...I don't see why it can't work with a four year old.

Good luck with this, it must be particularly hard when your son is obviously so full of good intentions.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I do know that I'm a punishment-free parent, so giving my child warnings and then leaving would not be in the repertoire.
I'm a little confused by that.

It isn't a punishment to realize your child isn't responding to redirection, and leave for everyone's sake.


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## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I'm a little confused by that.

It isn't a punishment to realize your child isn't responding to redirection, and leave for everyone's sake.


I was kind of thinking the same thing. Can you elaborate more on how that can be so damaging? I mean, if the parent was mean about it, it would definetly be a punishment. But I'm thinking more along the lines of kindly saying "We need to leave because we cannot stay here and harm other children." Basically, understanding that the child is not ready/able/in the mood to control himself so you take him out of the situation. It seems like the respectful thing to do so that other kids aren't hurt (or taught how to be aggressive, since that happens even if the child isn't hitting hard.)

Obviously, if the mother yanked her child up and said in a really mean tone, "That's it, we have to go home now because you hit and hitting is bad," that would be a punishment. I see it more as a natural consequence if done politely--it's something that needs to happen--you can't allow your child to stay there and keep hitting.

What do you think, Piglet? I'm just trying to understand


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

My first advice to the OP would be to try and arrange playdates that are smaller groups. At two years old, your child must be very overwhelmed being in a room with so many children. My dd is almost two, and so far I keep her playdates rotating so that she only has one friend over at a time. It is much easier to keep an eye on the situation.

Another advantage to keeping the number of kids per session smaller is that it give the adults a chance to form a relationship, and discuss the situations that occur. In this way, we can keep the lines of communication open and deal with our children in a positive manner.

As a classroom teacher, I have come to the conclusion that the adults in a room will make or break the situation. When children are in an environment with structure, order and attentive adults, they will thrive. However, if the adults are on the sidelines chatting, the kids (even the best kids) will get out of control and negative behavior happens.

My dd has a certain friend who is extremely quiet and not very out going at all. My dd, however, is very rambunctious. She likes to chase, run, tag and do all those types of things. She tries to engage her friend in these games, and the misunderstandings start. However, we keep a watchful eye on the situation, and work together to keep them playing nice.

I have noticed something in my daughter. Since her baby sister was born, she will become more aggressive at playdates when I am nursing her sister, or otherwise distracted with the baby. I am sad to report that she has hit and pushed her friend on a few occasions. The first thing I do is gently remove her from the play area, and carry her to the side. Then I hold her in my lap until she settles, and I speak softly to her about being nice, not hitting, etc. Then, I give her hand a soft kiss, and say "hands are for nice, loving touches". She usually gets down, and gives her friend a hug, as if to say she is sorry.

I believe that removing her from the situation makes more of an impact, than just reciting the words. Also, I think that responding to her in a loving rather than punitive manner diffuses the situation more so than just tossing her in a timeout or something.

Also, at these playdates, are the children involved in organized activities, or are they just free-playing on the playground. I think that kids who are more rambunctious need less time for free playing. Many of our playdate dilemmas were solved by starting the time out seated with crayons, moving on to a small snack or a game seated on the floor, then moving to the basement where they have the climbing toys. Structuring the time like this has really helped keep the kids from getting bored enough to cause trouble.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Ahhh, I was of the impression at first that this was more an agression thing. I think I understand now. In fact, a very good friend of mine just brought this up at a recent LLL meeting: her 2.5 year old is almost 50 lbs, a very big boy since birth, and his affections can really bowl over most kids...

Good luck with this, it must be particularly hard when your son is obviously so full of good intentions.









Thanks, Piglet68! It gets confusing in these long threads...I'm not the OP but maybe some people mixed us up. Anyway, you're right, it's hard b/c he means well. But good news...today I took him to the library and playground and he was good. I mean he didn't exhibit many of those behaviors. I did of course continue to shadow him and remind him "just look at the baby, don't touch" etc. Of course his good buddy wasn't there and that child is one that he always wants to hug too hard. But I was pleased I could take him out at 39 1/2 weeks preggo here and have a successful time!

Under the "Playfully Parenting DD When She Hits Me" thread I posted about an incident last night when DS unexpectedly hit me. It really helped us, I think, with the whole physical boundaries issue...I won't repeat it here but suffice to say it was a very dramatic but personal moment for us!

I also have problems with removing him unless things are wayyy out of hand...yet I don't want to put him in situations where he really cannot succeed. We are going to a large library playgroup tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. If it is over crowded or he seems overstimmed by it all we will go out to he playscape instead so he can burn off some of the energy. He's not being vicious, not biting or hitting other kids so I am not as motivated to remove him outright from the situation unless it's really a problem for us and others, knwim?

Thanks again!


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## lupineperriwinkle (May 15, 2004)

I didn't read the other responses so I may be repeating things here. Honestly, I belong to MOMS club and had a little boy hit Maya when she was about 6 months old on the top of her head while I was feeding her a bottle. He did it again in a few minutes and his mom did nothing but say no hitting. It wasn't a light swat like your little one though. I ended up leaving the playgroup.
We had another boy join last year who throws things and has no discipline and we ended up splitting playgroup in to 2 groups of less active/more agressive toddlers.
MOMS club can be very catty and even though you may be a wonderful mom, person, etc "they" will use your hitting son as a reason to not like you as petty as that sounds.
Maya has just started to hit me (her little sister was recently born and this is her way to act out). I tell her that Mommy and Daddy don't hit her, that hitting is not nice, hurts, etc. If I were in a social situation I would remove her to another space or room for a moment as the discipline. She would have to learn that her hitting has a consequence. I would not quit going to MOMS club events over this - your little one needs to be around others to learn what is right from wrong.

*I hope I don't sound horrid to anyone. I am AP, plan to homeschool and am fairly crunchy so I have had a few issues with MOMS club members on my own. However, I have made a few good friends and enjoy the company so I am not intending to completely turn anyone off of MOMS club!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

nak...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
It isn't a punishment to realize your child isn't responding to redirection, and leave for everyone's sake.

ITA. I was referring to a parent saying to their child something like "if you can't stop hitting, we're going to leave", then keep going back to the same situation...to me that is punishing the child and setting him up for failure (btw, I'm just being philosophical here, not trying to address any posts in particular).


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## tryinghardmomma (Oct 30, 2004)

I am sorry, I haven't read all the responses (flying through the forums today)... has anyone mentioned the way you respond to him? You said you tell him "No hitting, hitting hurts." I once read that if you tell your child what NOT to do, then you set them up for failure in 2 ways... one, they are only hearing the thing they aren't supposed to be doing. You say "No hitting" and he hears "hitting." You say "Don't run" and he hears "run." The other way is that you aren't giving him appropriate alternatives to try out.

Try this one.
"Oh! Ari hurt a friend. Ari, touch gently." or "Ari, use words." or "Ari, play over here a little further away from that child."

Give him something he can respond to. "No hitting" doesn't give him any room to respond or make a positive change. "touch gently" and "Come hit this drum" do.

Hope this helps.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tryinghardmomma*
I am sorry, I haven't read all the responses (flying through the forums today)... has anyone mentioned the way you respond to him? You said you tell him "No hitting, hitting hurts." I once read that if you tell your child what NOT to do, then you set them up for failure in 2 ways... one, they are only hearing the thing they aren't supposed to be doing. You say "No hitting" and he hears "hitting." You say "Don't run" and he hears "run." The other way is that you aren't giving him appropriate alternatives to try out.

Try this one.
"Oh! Ari hurt a friend. Ari, touch gently." or "Ari, use words." or "Ari, play over here a little further away from that child."

Give him something he can respond to. "No hitting" doesn't give him any room to respond or make a positive change. "touch gently" and "Come hit this drum" do.

Hope this helps.

That's a good point and one I always used while teaching--frame things in the positive. I'm not the OP and my child isn't the hitter---he's the "hugger" so I tend to say "gentle, soft, etc." a lot. If he does grab someones neck in a bear hug I do say 'no neck" sometimes or "no push" but I also say "pat pat on arm" or something to that effect

I think your point is good though--not to overuse the negative directions. But there is probably a time when a child DOES hit that saying "We may not hit" etc. is appropriate.


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## RaRa7 (Feb 29, 2004)

tryinghardmomma-
You're right--I'll have to try your suggestions! We're off to MOM"S club today_it's voting day and they really want me there. I guess this will determine if I go back in the future.
It's a good excuse for me to quit going to playdates anyway-never REALLY liked them-just did it for ds........








Thanks EVERYONE for your suggestions and I plan on reading them all through AGAIN!







My dh even reads them which makes me sooooo happy.


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Hmmm. I've been doing a bit of research on this lately. I'm currently reading a book on peaceful classrooms that I picked up at the education resource centre at my university. (Love that place!) Anyhow, one of the tidbits that stood out is that with young children, you can say, "oh don't hit, hitting hurts, etc" all you like, and its not going to impact. And if you chase them around and YOU are their conscience, then they will never internalize that it is WRONG to hurt someone. So, how do you help them internalize this without letting them run rampant?

Her suggestion was to 1) make the explanation that every reasonable parent uses, but to 2) couple this with an expression of the moral feeling behind this. So an amended version would be, *with great vocal and body expression* "Oh! Sweetheart! We don't hit people! Hitting hurts people and we dont' want to hurt them! See how he feels? He's hurting right now." Then find a way to offer restitution. With my little son, we encourage him to touch gently and give hugs, which seems to work well. The author gave examples of holding an ice pack, or helping to rebuild a block tower, etc. The focus is away from punishment, and towards making things right. The focus is also away from "the law", aka Mommy, and towards the person's own behavior. Hopefully, when backs are turned the lesson will be remembered. Kids who are punished, even by being grumped at, tend to just wait until no one's looking then do it again.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

These are all great ideas and I don't want to discourage anyone from trying any of them. Even when you are doing everything "right" you still can use the reminders from time to time. Because most likely, no one strategy is going to work. They will certainly go tone-deaf to the same old reminders. It's likely going to take a combination of things as well as time to work it out.

I do have to say, though, that I thought that all these strategies worked wonderfully--obviously I was doing everything RIGHT (LOL )because MY child didn't have this problem! And any minor incidents we quickly addressed without issue. I have been one of the people posting saying all the same things, until my own child started having issues with overzealous affection and hugging/wrestling (not hitting). Then you realize all those things you are doing aren't working after all. Which is why you end up posting here.....

In my child's case I really think it is developmental as well as stress related to his recent illness/hospitalization and our new baby who is literally on the way, like, any minute!

Not to be negative, but to the OP--hang in there and try a bunch of different things. Nothing is going to work all the time or any every child. They are all so different and have their own motivations for their behavior. Good luck and I sincerely hope I haven't hijacked your thread with my own issues!


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## twostraightlines (Aug 28, 2004)

Hi, I feel your pain, my son is going through a stage where he throws things and hits me, dh, and the playmate he sees most often. He hasn't done it yet in playgroups, so we'll see.

There are many great suggestions here. I have been correcting him in a angry tone, which is wrong. I just started thinking, if he is completely ignoring my matter-of-fact tone, maybe this will work better. It really doesn't. I've noticed it causes a sort of downward spiral where ds gets very angry and starts running to find things to throw at me. Often when he starts throwing things he doesn't seem angry at all, just seems like he is looking to see what kind of reaction he will get. He has this sort of half-smile like he thinks it's funny.

Anyway, tonight I was doing something a little different, and it seemed pretty effective. I was reading him bedtime stories and when I asked him which book I should read next, he would throw one at me. I would try to intercept the throw as if he was handing it to me, and reinforce with playing and giggling. He would melt into a hug and even offer a kiss. I thought it was very interesting. I just wish I knew why he was hitting. Any ideas from all of you wise Mamas? I wonder what this "playful parenting" is all about...

Thanks for this great thread, and I'd love to hear any advice specific to my situation.


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