# Which is worse - to be circ'ed or not breastfed?



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Discuss amongst yourselves.

If it were either/or - either the child is circumcised, but is breastfed, or he is intact, but not breastfed - which would be worse? This is not a real-life situation for me, but I am curious to see what people think. In a sense, which is the worse injury to the child?


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Circumcision is WAY worse. You're cutting off a healthy functioning piece of skin. I'm a huge breastfeeding activist and I don't think people should do anything but (unless medically needed), but if I could convince someone to not circ by telling them they didn't have to breastfeed, I would.


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## crunchyconmomma (Feb 6, 2003)

wow. that was atcually a shock to see the first answer. thought it would be the other way.
personally, cut and BF would be my option. no FF.
isn't it nice that we don't have to choose?


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

To me it would be worse to not circ and FF. I think the potential life long health risks to babies raised on Formula are FARRRRRRRR worse than the risks of circ'g ever could be. JMSHO


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## StrawHatBrat (Jan 5, 2005)

I'd choose to breastfeed!!


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## celestialdreamer (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79*
To me it would be worse to not circ and FF. I think the potential life long health risks to babies raised on Formula are FARRRRRRRR worse than the risks of circ'g ever could be. JMSHO

I agree. I'm glad I would never have to make a choice like that anyway!


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## kisagotami (Sep 18, 2005)

:


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## Jasmyn's Mum (May 24, 2004)

As much as I'd hate it, I would circ before I'd ff. In the long run, I think the child would be better off. Phew! Glad I don't have to choose, though.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I am really trying to decide what I'd do and I just can't. It would physically make me ill to mutilate my child, I can't even imagine my son having to go thru that. It also would break my heart not being able to breastfeed my child, I can't even really wrap my brain around it. These two things are things I feel so strongly about. I am thankful so thankful I don't have to choose.
What if my son was the one that died from being circed or had a full amputation or got gangreen (it happens and it's horrid)? What if my son was fed tainted formula and died? I would have to really research and figure out which really is more dangerous. Again though thank goodness I don't have to choose.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Circing is worse. It's permanent mutilation.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Well, I think you're trading known risks for unknown risks either way. The odds of dying from circ in this country are very, very low - as are the odds of dying from ff. But both happen. And both have lifelong impacts - but no one can tell you ahead of time what those are going to be for your individual child.

Yikes, I'm not going to choose on this one.


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

I can`t choose either, what a nightmare!

I think if it was a spur of the moment thing like if they were going to circ him right then against my will unless I ff, I would probably ff. All of my extended family except for my brothers and me were ff, and they are super healthy, so maybe if you`re not allergy prone and generally pretty healthy maybe ff wouldn`t be so bad as much as it pains me to say that. A foreskin can never be replaced and starting out life with excruciating, violating pain can`t be undone either.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Whew tough one is right....I feel really, really strongly about both but I have to say that I know lots of kids who were ff and are doing alright but every single baby boy who was circed is damaged sexually forever. So I think I would have to say I would ff before circ.

Take care,
Tara


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

tough call! i would have to choose intact and ff.


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## Medusa (Mar 25, 2004)

I've seen this question come up a few times on differant AP boards and everytime I see it I have to wonder why.
Has anyone ever really been put in this position? How could this question ever actually come up IRL?
Breastfeeding and gential integrity are both extremely important issues, and I can't see any value in weighing one against the other. What can this question do but cause division in the AP community?

Maybe one of you has some insight here that I'm lacking...but I just can't help but wonder what we're actually doing when we ask this question.


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## mahogny (Oct 16, 2003)

I'd wish for a girl!









I'd breastfeed.

Horrible things happen in both scenarios, and both have lifelong implications; I would do my child a disservice by either circ'ing or ff'ing. But I believe the bigger danger is to deny breastmilk.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

I'd rather see a baby formula fed than genitally mutilated. I am a huge breastfeeding advocate, but cutting on a baby is far worse than feeding him formula, IMHO. Breastmilk is ideal, keeping all of your body parts is a birthright.

Not breastfeeding is not a violation of human rights. Cutting a baby with little or no pain relief for cosmetic reasons is. Again, IMHO.


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## Shaunam (Oct 8, 2004)

I've thought about this before, believe it or not. If I had to choose one or the other (and thank goodness that isn't the case), I would definitely leave my son intact and formula feed.

Of course I think bf'ing is extremely important, but the consequences of ff'ing don't even come close to losing a functional part of the penis. A person MAY get asthma or allergies. He MAY have intestinal problems. He MAY even end up with something worse. But when a boy is circumcised, he ALWAYs loses his foreskin. He ALWAYS has a circ scar. He ALWAYS has diminished sexual pleasure. And the consequences can even get worse. Painful erections and so on.

That being said, I would bottle-nurse in a very AP way.


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## InnieTurnedOuttie (Sep 19, 2005)

I would breastfeed. I have 5 older brothers, 3 of which are circ, and they are all well adjusted and great brothers.
While I agree there are drawbacks from circ, I don't feel they are that critical in most cases. I have not read any of the horror stories yet though (trying to stay away from them until after baby is born so I am not agitated).
I've also been around a great deal of ff babies, all who were prone to sickness, generally unhealthy and had parents who were not very attached.

I think bfing is as important to parental bonding as it is to the childs health.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Medusa*
I've seen this question come up a few times on differant AP boards and everytime I see it I have to wonder why.
Has anyone ever really been put in this position? How could this question ever actually come up IRL?
Breastfeeding and gential integrity are both extremely important issues, and I can't see any value in weighing one against the other. What can this question do but cause division in the AP community?

Maybe one of you has some insight here that I'm lacking...but I just can't help but wonder what we're actually doing when we ask this question.










That's what I thought too. Since I can't possibly think of a situation where a person would have to make that choice, what do we gain by discussing it?

FTR, I'm deeply saddened when parents choose to circumcise, and I'm deeply saddened when parents choose to ff.


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## lise brit (Apr 8, 2003)

Interesting question! However, the fact remains that many people who call themselves AP or say they practice natural parenting, do in fact circ their sons. I have one neighbor who I have been talking to since she had her second baby about 6 months ago. She describes herself as AP and subscribes to natural parenting. No CIO, no VAX, BFon demand...but guess what? Yeah you are right, she circed her son! So, I guess some people find it less important.

Personally, I really enjoyed BF'ing and there is no doubt about the lifelong benefits. However, there are lifelong benefits to having a foreskin. So I would have to vote for no circ. I can barely watch the pictures let alone the videos. The thought of my son going through something like that would just break my heart, whereas the thought of my son with a bottle in his mouth isn't as heart wrenching.

Lise


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## bunniemunch (May 28, 2005)

would rather ff

btw i breastfeed and dont circ


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

Well I find myself in a unique situation with this question... probably.

My first DS, my first child, had a very rare and potentially fatal blood disorder, neutropenia. He was circ'd because we had NO idea that he had this blood disorder. Had we known we wouldn't have circ'd him because even a tiny little infection could have killed him becuase his immune system was all but nonexistent.

Thing is that same son ended up in the hospital at 7 weeks old with pneumonia. They told us he wouldn't survive because his immune system couldn't handle it. He did survive though. They told us he wouldn't live to see his first birthday because something as simple as strep throat could kill him. He did survive though. After his 1st b'day DH and I met with all his specialists together (4 in total) and they ALL agreed that BF saved DS's life. They said the ONLY immunities he got were from the breastmilk he drank and that it saved him when he had the pnuemonia and kept him healthy enough to survive his first year of life. As it turned out when he hit about 7 or 8 months his white cell counts started very slowly climbing. By the time he was 12 months they were just below what is considered normal (anything over 1200 is normal and his count was at about 900 - 1000).

I also have a child that almost died on formula when we switched her over to it at 9 months. Really really really long story but the short of it is that at this point I consider formula to be "artificial baby POISON" and it will NEVER touch my babies lips.

So if given the choice I would cut and BF... because for my family and my children it could literally be a life and death decision. Circ has it's risks and dangers, and occasionally deaths, but in my case the risk would be considerably LESS than if I chose to FF my child.

Thank God we don't have to chose because I have two intact, BF, co-sleeping sons









~ Patti
mom of 5


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

to me it would being circ'd.

ETA- just wanted to clarify I would FF in a heartbeat over circ.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I saw this posted earlie today and skipped over it cuz I didn't know how to answer. I still can't choose. The idea of either is awful.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Medusa*
I've seen this question come up a few times on differant AP boards and everytime I see it I have to wonder why.
Has anyone ever really been put in this position? How could this question ever actually come up IRL?
Breastfeeding and gential integrity are both extremely important issues, and I can't see any value in weighing one against the other. What can this question do but cause division in the AP community?

Maybe one of you has some insight here that I'm lacking...but I just can't help but wonder what we're actually doing when we ask this question.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
That's what I thought too. Since I can't possibly think of a situation where a person would have to make that choice, what do we gain by discussing it?

I didn't mean to agitate people by asking this question. I was not trying to cause division within the community.

I recently read about a woman whose husband did not want her to breastfeed (she did want to), and he wanted to circ the baby, but she didn't want to. So I thought, would it be worth the trade? Should she give up breastfeeding to save the baby from being circumcised? So it does have real-life application.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221*
I saw this posted earlie today and skipped over it cuz I didn't know how to answer. I still can't choose. The idea of either is awful.









:


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

not a drop of formula touched my ds's lips, but i would ff before i would cut him.

btw, not a drop of breastmilk touched my lips... my mom was scared to breastfeed and only managed it with the last child. of course, i don't know any babies (or haven't heard any stories) who have died from formula or been permanently damaged so maybe that's why i am making this choice...


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Leave intact and formula feed.
And hope for the best when the breastfeeding benefits are needed most.


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

I'd cut my son before I'd formula feed him.

But, I come with the background knowledge that a single drink of formula _would_ have killed my son. Not "might have". WOULD have. His allergy to dairy is that severe.

So yeah, I'd rather see him have a part of his body cut off, yet him still be alive for me to hold and nurture and raise and love than to be visiting a gravesite.


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## No2Circ (Aug 10, 2005)

This question is a logical fallacy based on "false dichotomy" thinking --a forced "either, or" situation, when the dichotomy isn't really there (i.e. in real life, one is not forced to choose between the two.)

Therefore, I refuse to answer it on those grounds! (Just for the record, though, I left my son intact and breastfed him.)


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
I recently read about a woman whose husband did not want her to breastfeed (she did want to), and he wanted to circ the baby, but she didn't want to. So I thought, would it be worth the trade? Should she give up breastfeeding to save the baby from being circumcised? So it does have real-life application.

Yeah, that was the only kind of similar real-life situation I could imagine. But still, in that circumstance, I think that participating in such a trade is participating in an incredibly unhealthy marriage and parenting partnership. It's like negotiating with a terrorist, a very slippery slope. What's going to be next, "I'll agree not to teach him to hate blacks if you agree I can teach him to hate Jews," or, "We'll let him play with dolls if he wants to, but you have to agree I can beat him with a belt when he 'gets out of line'"? Compromise in marriage is one thing, but this sounds more like extortion, and to me, it calls for seeking help if the marriage is going to work.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

First, let me say that I am an absolute advocate of breast feeding. I have actually often walked up to total strangers and asked "Are you/are you planning to breast feed?" and tell them of the benefits.

But, let me turn this around a little bit. If the question were "Would you rather have a significant portion of your genitals cut off in a painful procedure and suffer the sexual consequences of it or would you rather breastfeed?" what would you choose" That makes it a little harder, doesn't it?

But you see, this is not a hypothetical question for me. I don't remember but I suspect I was formula fed because my younger brother was and we are both happy, well adjusted and in disgustingly good health our entire lives. This is a no brainer for me. I didn't have to consider it for even a micro second and I can't quite fathom that anyone else would either. Gimme that can o' formula!

I had to look several times to see if I had somehow mistakenly gotten into the breast feeding forum before I was convinced that I was in CAC.





















:

Frank


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

Leave intact and formula feed.
And hope for the best when the breastfeeding benefits are needed most.
Yep. That's my stance on it.


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## aidansmom05 (Jul 10, 2005)

My son is a happy healthy circumsized breastfed baby so I would say I would breastfeed, I was not aware of the horrible way they circ before he was born, but in resp, to the ?? this is my choice


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

My older ds was both - circ'd and FF'd - for reasons that are OT here. Anyway - to answer the OP's question - I'd circ before I'd FF again.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

If my mom had to make a choice between breastfeeding me or cutting off some of my vagina, I'd hope to god she would have shoved formula down my throat like there was no tomorrow.

So, I'd formula feed my son before cutting off part of his penis.

edit: PS....and I'm nak'ing as we speak....type....whateva.


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## Karry (Apr 10, 2002)

If I had to make the choice I would formula feed and leave my boys intact. I'm all for bf and nursed all of my kids, I just think circing is worse.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*

I recently read about a woman whose husband did not want her to breastfeed (she did want to), and he wanted to circ the baby, but she didn't want to. So I thought, would it be worth the trade? Should she give up breastfeeding to save the baby from being circumcised? So it does have real-life application.


This makes me SOOO thankful for my intactivist, lactivist husband!!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Okay, this is coming from an extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, natural birthing, anti-circumcision, cloth diapering--yes, I'm crunchy!--mom







who would definitely formula feed before I even thought about cutting my child.

I think I would look into Dr. Mercola's Raw Milk Homemade Formula recipe though, if I were making that decision!

http://www.mercola.com/2005/oct/11/h...ula_part_1.htm and http://www.mercola.com/2005/oct/18/h...ula_part_2.htm

~Nay


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *acp*
of course, i don't know any babies (or haven't heard any stories) who have died from formula or been permanently damaged so maybe that's why i am making this choice...

I think that's one of the problems with BF rates in this country. Most people believe that formula is not harmful and while not exactly equal to breastmilk is a reasonable substitution for it. However having had one child with a rare blood disorder that most likely would have died if he wasn't breastfed and another child that formula did harm and almost died I have to say it's not -not even close. My DD was in the hospital in renal failure in the PICU with Dr.'s telling me she wasn't going to make it. It all started with formula, with nobody to blame but myself. Thank God she did live but she has life long problems due to having been so critically ill as a baby. She's 7 y/o and weighs 38 lbs. and is about the size of your average 4 y/o. She will ALWAYS be small. She is also what my Ped. refers to as "medically fragile"... which means she catches every bug out there, she gets it worse and longer because her immune system isn't what it should be due to malnutrition and illness as an infant.

So, I know that my case isn't what you would call "typical" but it does happen and people need to know about it. I have had friends of mine, friends that saw what DD went through, tell me "formula is just as good." It's very upsetting to me personally to hear that.

Sorry just had to add that.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 cut


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## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

I cannot imagine ever circumcising, you might as well ask me if I'd prefer if my child was formula fed or raped and molested instead.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## Slingin'Momto4 (Oct 1, 2003)

If I had to choose I would FF and keep my son intact...

As much as it would hurt my heart to FF it would hurt my heart much more to genitally mutilate him


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

"I recently read about a woman whose husband did not want her to breastfeed (she did want to), and he wanted to circ the baby, but she didn't want to. So I thought, would it be worth the trade? Should she give up breastfeeding to save the baby from being circumcised? So it does have real-life application."

That is a different story - but equally irrelevant. As others have said, it's hard to put myself in the position of NOT having a supportive spouse, or raising a child with a partner who didn't put the needs of the baby first and foremost. Obviously this poor woman's husband is not terribly concerned about the baby's needs. I shudder to think what his discipline style is going to be like.


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## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

I come from a background of bf'ing, my mother bf'd all her 6 children, and my aunt is very much a lactivist, and I bf my children. All the relatives I know of personally are circumcised, including nephews. Still, if I *had* to make a choice, I would absolutely formula feed before circumcising...and I have only jumped on the anti-circ bandwagon within the last few months, shortly before the birth of my son. I just can't imagine being able to rationalize a food substitute being more life-altering than genital mutilation, especially when my son would have no say in it, and it happens in such a fragile point in their life...what a horrible welcome to the world! And it wouldn't only affect him, but also his future spouse. I don't want that kind of thing hanging over my head.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

I don't see the point of this discussion.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celrae*









I don't see the point of this discussion.









: It strongly reminds me of questions like, "If someone broke into your house and said he was going to kill either your husband or your child, and you had to choose which, who would you save?" It doesn't seem to produce anything but turmoil over an extremely unlikely scenario. Well, that and guilt, because no matter which you choose, it's not going to be an answer you can feel "good" about.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Well, I would never circ, and since I can't breastfeed, then my son would have a wetnurse!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

These types of questions are really designed to see how well you have been trained to stay inside the box, how well you are conditioned not to question authority.
It was in a psychology class of mine...religions use these a lot to make sure no one strays or questions the indoctrination.
Like, if your adopted child and your bio-child fell in the water, who would you save first?

It is designed to set you up to feel guilty and not question authority.


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## Sweetiemommy (Jul 19, 2005)

Hmmm, let's see, breastfed babies are smarter and healthier, have better jaw development,







- I could go on forever.

Let's see, I was formula fed and my husband was breastfed and circ'd. He has a fantastic immune system and is fantastically smart. He doesn't have any problems with his penis. He votes for breastfed.

Don't kill the messenger!


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
These types of questions are really designed to see how well you have been trained to stay inside the box, how well you are conditioned not to question authority.
It was in a psychology class of mine...religions use these a lot to make sure no one strays or questions the indoctrination.
Like, if your adopted child and your bio-child fell in the water, who would you save first?

It is designed to set you up to feel guilty and not question authority.

That's interesting. Is the idea that you would then turn to the religion to tell you the "right" answer, since if you're just following their precepts, then you wouldn't have to feel guilty?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
That's interesting. Is the idea that you would then turn to the religion to tell you the "right" answer, since if you're just following their precepts, then you wouldn't have to feel guilty?

Yes. Those who were able to see outside the box were asked to leave the church or they left on their own. But it is not just religion that uses these, it is also government....they use it for keeping the Death Penalty, anti-abortion, etc.
It helps create the Us vs Them arguments.

It has to do with the psychology of a few ppl controlling the masses and how it is accomplished. It's not just these types of questions used, but they are a tool to figure out who to keep and who to get rid of when you as a leader need to keep your forces strong to do your bidding, kwim?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

There is no "right" answer. These types of questions are used to get rid of ppl who actually think and question authority. If you are planning on using a group of ppl to cause harm to another group, you do not want anyone to question your authority or intentions. You want ppl who cannot think for themselves and who will blindly follow your directions.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
These types of questions are really designed to see how well you have been trained to stay inside the box, how well you are conditioned not to question authority.
It was in a psychology class of mine...religions use these a lot to make sure no one strays or questions the indoctrination.
Like, if your adopted child and your bio-child fell in the water, who would you save first?

It is designed to set you up to feel guilty and not question authority.

Well, I am not *The Man*! Last time I checked, at least...







That is interesting, though. My husband is a psych major... I will have to ask him.

FWIW, when I read about the woman who is having this problem, I also thought it was a false choice. My response would have been that my son would not be cut and would be breastfed, and he could leave if he couldn't deal with it - outside the box answer. But, within the bounds of the question, I would probably choose to breastfeed. Or what if you had a friend who was planning to circ and ff, and you knew she was not going to take too much lecturing from you... what would you advocate more strongly for? What battle would you pick?

This thread was not designed to piss people off or to out anyone for having the "wrong" answer. B/c there isn't a right or wrong answer, and as people pointed out, there are more than 2 choices. Your answer tells what is important to you, and that is all. Not what is the most important thing for everyone. Don't get too upset... I just wanted to think about it. Also, I meant to put the same thread in the bfing forum, but forgot. I wonder if the responses would be different?


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## My2Matthews (Aug 9, 2004)

Could I leave him intact and pump?







If not.... I would FF and not circ. I think it was actually an interesting question. Made me think.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
Or what if you had a friend who was planning to circ and ff, and you knew she was not going to take too much lecturing from you... what would you advocate more strongly for? What battle would you pick?

Personally, I think in general not circ'ing would be the more effective battle. Once you've gotten people to leave the hospital with an intact son, I think you have a good chance that they're not going to have him circ'd later on (especially since he'll seem more and more like a "real person" as time goes on). Leaving him intact becomes the course of least resistance. But there are lots of women who are talked into bf'ing and who aren't successful at it because bf'ing requires continuing effort. So you could talk her into it during pg, but have a high chance of her changing her mind later.

That being said, I also believe that there are cases in which you're not going to win on circ'ing, but you have a chance on bf'ing. It's a tough call to make at times.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
Oh, totally, I know what you are talking about. I remember being new and learning how to walk the walk and talk the (allowed) talk. Any criticism you get will be really much harsher than it would be IRL b/c when you can't see someone's face, you can be much meaner. So you learn not to say certain things, and you learn to jump on the bandwagon of criticism and flaming when the group decides someone is worthy of punishment. That is the part of MDC that disgusts me... someone says something, and everyone looks around and says, "What do we think? What do we think?" and then we decide, "Wrong speech! Wrong speech!" and then the villagers run to the castle with torches and pitchforks to stamp out the wrong speech. Every time I see this I feel I have to defend the wrong speech. If we don't challenge ourselves, we become ossified and worthy of ridicule.









:

I've had more than one post removed by a mod at the request of someone who seems to be able to say whatever they want? Often my comments taken completely out of context. I don't like that aspect of MDC - I was very surprised to see the outright "censoring" that goes on. Especially since I was drawn to the magazine and this group as it seems to be the only parenting lit out there for the "thinking mom" - so surprised to see this community censoring POVs - would expect that from the mainstream - but notice they don't really do that? But - that said, I find a lot of value here too - just get discouraged sometimes.


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## momof3sweeties (Oct 16, 2005)

_Oh, totally, I know what you are talking about. I remember being new and learning how to walk the walk and talk the (allowed) talk. Any criticism you get will be really much harsher than it would be IRL b/c when you can't see someone's face, you can be much meaner. So you learn not to say certain things, and you learn to jump on the bandwagon of criticism and flaming when the group decides someone is worthy of punishment. That is the part of MDC that disgusts me... someone says something, and everyone looks around and says, "What do we think? What do we think?" and then we decide, "Wrong speech! Wrong speech!" and then the villagers run to the castle with torches and pitchforks to stamp out the wrong speech. Every time I see this I feel I have to defend the wrong speech. If we don't challenge ourselves, we become ossified and worthy of ridicule._








:

I have only been at MDC a few weeks and I have seen alot of mean posters here.







It truly seems that you have to be careful of what you post because you can find your self being bashed in a new thread somewhere and people's feeling have got to be getting hurt.









Women are so critical of one another anyway it seems like and can be so defensive!

Moms aganozie over all sorts of decisions from the moment they are carrying the baby. It seems everyone has an opinion from how you are going to deliver your baby, what you feed it, how you diaper it, if you circumcise or not, if you stay at home or work, if you homeschool or not....everyone's situation is different. They make decisions from different life experiences and what they think is best or right for their family. Noone should be condemned for decisions they have made that are different from yours. Noone should be made to feel bad.

We are all mothers and we should all respect each other and learn from each other.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

That's kind of like, "if you could only save one of your children which one would you save?" I could never decide and would find a way to save both.

There two really important issues!


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

interesting thread.

for me personally, I would ff and not cut. And I thank my lucky stars I never had to make the choice.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

What if the question were about our daughters?
Would you ff or have the surgery on your daughter's genitals as is done in some cultures?

Would that change your answer?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I haven't read all the responses, but I would never circ. Also, having gone through not being able to BF - and pumping, supplimenting, etc... If I ever find myself in the same boat again, I'd pump again, and/or make my own formula, and give herbs, mineral supp, pro-biotics, etc...

So my final answer is that I'd *not* breastfeed over circing, but I wouldn't use crap formula either.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I suspect that I may have inadvertantly sparked this discussion by bringing them up in comparison.







: I would absolutely rather ff than circ. I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.









It bothers me that people (not necessarily around here) take breastfeeding so much more seriously than genital integrity. I do believe that both are of almost equal importance.

I don't think there are many real-life scenarios where one has to choose. I think in the case of husbands saying pick one or the other, she should start packing his bags for him.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*







: It strongly reminds me of questions like, "If someone broke into your house and said he was going to kill either your husband or your child, and you had to choose which, who would you save?" It doesn't seem to produce anything but turmoil over an extremely unlikely scenario. Well, that and guilt, because no matter which you choose, it's not going to be an answer you can feel "good" about.


Lisa, this post made me realize something that I have never realized before.

In the animal kingdom, mothers will fight ferociously with every ounce of their strength for the survival of their offspring but before they will sacrifice their own lives, they will abandon their offspring. That does not mean that they will not recieve mortal wounds and die later. They will abandon their own offspring because the species must survive and they can go on to reproduce again insuring the survival of the species.

Humans are different. Humans will mutilate the genitals of their very own offspring, the very center and source of reproduction and survival of the species thus, threatening the survival of the species. No other animal in the animal kingdom will do this.

Frank


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

I think in the case of husbands saying pick one or the other, she should start packing his bags for him.
ITA!!


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.









Really?


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Formula, hands-down.

Leaving my son intact is the ONE parenting decision that I feel 100% positive about at all times. I can't even say THAT about breastfeeding.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
This thread was not designed to piss people off or to out anyone for having the "wrong" answer. B/c there isn't a right or wrong answer, and as people pointed out, there are more than 2 choices. Your answer tells what is important to you, and that is all. Not what is the most important thing for everyone. Don't get too upset... I just wanted to think about it. Also, I meant to put the same thread in the bfing forum, but forgot. I wonder if the responses would be different?

This thead has been an eye opener for me and shows just how much further we have to go to end the needless cosmetic modification of men's bodies simply to suit someone else's whim. We have a much longer way to go than I realized.

I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"

Frank


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I also want to say that, while formula carries real risks, circ is a guarantee of damage.

Gimme even a 75 percent chance of lifelong harm over a 100 percent one any day of the week.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

The more I think about it, the more I choose option three. Tell my dh that he has issues and needs help if he insists upon either mutilating our son, or denying him my breasts. If he refused, then I'd boot him out.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
Or what if you had a friend who was planning to circ and ff, and you knew she was not going to take too much lecturing from you... what would you advocate more strongly for? What battle would you pick?



Oh, the intactivism, definitely. There are plenty of people out there advocating breastfeeding, so it's likely she'd get that kind of info from someone else. But I may be the ONLY person she comes in contact with who says, "Leave your son intact."


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"

My original answer was to not circ and provide my baby with a wetnurse.
I also get upset that women do not care about male genitals. It is the one part of my male counterparts that is sacred and that makes them males and I could never even think of harming or letting someone else harm my son, father, husband, brother, or any male.

Women keep saying, "Well, my circ'd man has a member that works!"







if it didn't work, would ya be with him? And just because it "works" doesn't mean it is okay.

Yeah, you can cut your clit off and still have a working vagina, does that mean it's okay?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"
I didn't read the first post where you posed this question... Was it a question of would I get myself circed if it meant both BFing and keeping DC intact? Or if it came down to baby or me getting cut?

In the first, I'd pump and/or make homemade formula and leave us both whole.
In the second case, I'd get cut over baby anyday.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

Galatea- Thanks for explaining why you posted the ? I just found it to be very judgmental with no good answer either way.

mamaintheboonies- Thanks for your insight!


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

Ugh, I can't choose!! If I would have had to decide on an implulse decision, I think I would have ff and left my little boy intact. There was NO WAY IN HE** I would have let someone take a knife to him.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I would never do either-

To me and my DH a child has a human right to be safe, intact and breastfeed. Like my siggy says it is a human rights issue- but for some reason people (as in the media) try to make it a "hip" or "cool" issue and forget we are talking about a human who should have the right to only the best treatment.


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## momof3sweeties (Oct 16, 2005)

_Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.

Really?_

I wouldn't want my sons to have the health problems and a shorter life. If there had to be a choice it would be breastfeeding. I have seen kids from family members and friends totally formula fed, have tons of health problems, tubes in ears, severe diaper rashes, immune problems, etc. My oldest had never been to a Dr. for any illness untill he was 4 1/2. None of my kids ever had diaper rashes, except an occasionally pink bottom which would go away by next diaper change by putting a salve on it.

Males in general are pretty proud of their penis. Some even have names for them. If there are so many circumcised men out there having incomplete sex lives then why aren't they the ones advocating against circumcision? After all it's there sex life!!


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I've removed posts that were inappropriate and or taking the thread off topic. Let's please keep to the discussion posted by the OP. If you take issue with the question and cannot post appropriately then please refrain from posting.

This thread is reopened for discussion.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frank*
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"


Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I didn't read the first post where you posed this question... Was it a question of would I get myself circed if it meant both BFing and keeping DC intact? Or if it came down to baby or me getting cut?

In the first, I'd pump and/or make homemade formula and leave us both whole.
In the second case, I'd get cut over baby anyday.


Here's where I'm coming from on this:

I don't believe a baby cares where the milk/formula comes from or tastes like, they just want to be fed, so it's the mother who wants breast feeding. Forget about the health benefits for now.

There has never been a baby born that wanted painful cutting done anywhere on his body. This also falls into the category of a mother's wants.

If it's all about Mom's want, why shouldn't it be Mom who gets cut? If it were you that wanted to breast feed, would you give up your external genitalia and the corresponding sexuality plus endure excruiating pain during and after the procedure to breast feed?

Frank


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.

For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy).

So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again.

I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 cut


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatScarlett*
Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.

For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy).

So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again.

I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 cut










But Patti, baby boys die from circumcision complications as well. Just as you didn't know before hand that you would be risking their lives by ff, every time a circumcision is preformed on an infant, their lives are being put at risk, and you would never know before hand if your baby was going to be the unlucky one that would end up dead (or seriously injured or sick) from the circumcision that you chose for him.

Ultimately it is not about choosing life or death, it is one bad choice or another. One avenue to risk the health/life of your child or another. Like trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because what it boils down to is either choice (ff or circ) could end badly.

Take care,
Tara


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

easy- I'd rather FF than circ- I am just not physically capable of inflicting such awful pain on my son and I don't want his sexuality or his relationship with a future lover to be damaged. (My dp was FF and circ'd and I can tell you that the circ has caused him (and me) many more problems than him being FF many moons ago- I know his health might be better if he were BF but I look at it like this- I know lots of people who were FF, most of whom (including myself) are pretty healthy- I don't know one person who was circ'd who has full sexual function (although many aren't aware of it)- I guess it's like roulette with one bullet or roulette with a bullet in every chamber- FF might kill or make some people unhealthy but circ always harms their sexuality, can kill as well, and is extremely psychologically harmful.) JMO


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof3sweeties*
_Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.

Really?_

I wouldn't want my sons to have the health problems and a shorter life. If there had to be a choice it would be breastfeeding. I have seen kids from family members and friends totally formula fed, have tons of health problems, tubes in ears, severe diaper rashes, immune problems, etc. My oldest had never been to a Dr. for any illness untill he was 4 1/2. None of my kids ever had diaper rashes, except an occasionally pink bottom which would go away by next diaper change by putting a salve on it.

Males in general are pretty proud of their penis. Some even have names for them. If there are so many circumcised men out there having incomplete sex lives then why aren't they the ones advocating against circumcision? After all it's there sex life!!

Go to this website: www.**************************. This will tell you all you want to know about how circumcision changes the act of intercourse so that it is less satisfying for both men and women. Warning: don't access it when your kids are around, because parts of it are pretty explicit. You will, however, get quite an education. That site and this very forum turned me from being vaguely anti-circ. to very anti-circ. Circumcision hurts both men and women for life.


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
But Patti, baby boys die from circumcision complications as well. Just as you didn't know before hand that you would be risking their lives by ff, every time a circumcision is preformed on an infant, their lives are being put at risk, and you would never know before hand if your baby was going to be the unlucky one that would end up dead (or seriously injured or sick) from the circumcision that you chose for him.

Ultimately it is not about choosing life or death, it is one bad choice or another. One avenue to risk the health/life of your child or another. Like trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because what it boils down to is either choice (ff or circ) could end badly.

Take care,
Tara

Tara, I totally understand and accept that. Circ DOES have inherint risks, it's SURGERY for crying out loud! That's why I learned more and didn't do it to my other children after having made a bad and misinformed decision (on advice from my Dr.'s) the first time. There are risks, baby boys DO die from it. It's horrible and wrong and IMO should be illegal in the same way that FGM is. Trust me, I get it. It is not something I could ever do again and that I regret horribly having done at all. Like others have said, thank God we don't HAVE to chose. I am a breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, non-cutting parent and will always be that way... to however many children we have.

What I'm saying is that for ME in MY case alone I would risk cutting off a part of myself or my child because of the known and extremely high risks of not BF in my particular family. My family is a somewhat unique case. I know there are children that die every single year because they were not BF but it's not common. Heck, I was FF and I did okay. I have health issue's now but that's just life. However going into a situation where you know that the very possible outcome is death you have to do as you said, chose the lesser of two evils. In my case it would be to chose to go ahead and cut myself or my child, just let him/her live.

I just feel like when people say things like "I know FF people that turned out just fine" they don't understand that in the big picture that's NOT ALWAYS the case. It's something near and dear to me because of my experiences. I hope others can respect that.

~ Patti
mom of 5


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatScarlett*
Tara, I totally understand and accept that. Circ DOES have inherint risks, it's SURGERY for crying out loud! That's why I learned more and didn't do it to my other children after having made a bad and misinformed decision (on advice from my Dr.'s) the first time. There are risks, baby boys DO die from it. It's horrible and wrong and IMO should be illegal in the same way that FGM is. Trust me, I get it. It is not something I could ever do again and that I regret horribly having done at all. Like others have said, thank God we don't HAVE to chose. I am a breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, non-cutting parent and will always be that way... to however many children we have.

What I'm saying is that for ME in MY case alone I would risk cutting off a part of myself or my child because of the known and extremely high risks of not BF in my particular family. My family is a somewhat unique case. I know there are children that die every single year because they were not BF but it's not common. Heck, I was FF and I did okay. I have health issue's now but that's just life. However going into a situation where you know that the very possible outcome is death you have to do as you said, chose the lesser of two evils. In my case it would be to chose to go ahead and cut myself or my child, just let him/her live.

I just feel like when people say things like "I know FF people that turned out just fine" they don't understand that in the big picture that's NOT ALWAYS the case. It's something near and dear to me because of my experiences. I hope others can respect that.

~ Patti
mom of 5

Patti, I totally respect that, I was only trying to understand,(in my own head) because as I see it, just as your dd(or anyones dd could have) had an unknown condition that made ff dangerous for her, you(or anyone) could have a son who could have had an unknown condition(like a blood disorder) that made circumcision even more dangerous (than it usually is) for him.

I was not trying to minimize your situation or really even question your response at all, just hoping to understand you POV better. Sorry if I put you on the spot.

Take care,
Tara


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
Patti, I totally respect that, I was only trying to understand,(in my own head) because as I see it, just as your dd(or anyones dd could have) had an unknown condition that made ff dangerous for her, you(or anyone) could have a son who could have had an unknown condition(like a blood disorder) that made circumcision even more dangerous (than it usually is) for him.

I was not trying to minimize your situation or really even question your response at all, just hoping to understand you POV better. Sorry if I put you on the spot.

Take care,
Tara

Tara, thanks for that.

Also just so you know I did circ my oldest son and as it turned out he did have a condition that could have easily made having been cut life-threatening for him. He had a rare blood disorder called neutropenia, which means that he didn't have enough white blood cells to fight off infection. If his circ had became even the tiniest little bit infected or there was any kind of complication what-so-ever it could have easily been disastrous for my DS! Unfortunately we had no idea his white cell count was compromised until well after his circ. We actually found out when he was 7 weeks old and admitted to the hospital with a severe pneumonia. They did a routine blood test and were stunned at what they saw, they did it again and his numbers were even worse. He had almost no immune system (thank GOD that I had chosen to BF him!).

Because of my experience with that I have actually been working for YEARS to get the hospitals in our area to run routine CBC's before performing circ's. It's a simple blood test that can be done quickly and cheaply to check for any kind of anomoly before putting a newborn under the knife. As I tell the local hospitals here all the time the ONLY surgery a hospital would even consider doing without one iota of medical background on the patient on which they intent to operate is circ, and that's just WRONG! I am adamently opposed to circ at all but if they HAVE to do them I think the only responsible way to even consider surgery on a newborn is with the most preliminary and basic of blood work ups to get some kind of idea of the general health and well being of the child beforehand. If I had any idea that circ could have been even the slightest danger to DS1 I would have never for one moment have considered it. I think hospital's owe it to parents to first and foremost impress upon them that circ is in no way medically necessary or beneficial and then secondly, if the parents insist upon it, they should insist on routine blood work to establish some kind of medical awareness about the child and his well being.

Like I said, I still think it should be illegal but we're not there yet.

~ Patti
mom of 5


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## melissa_honeybee (May 20, 2005)

First off, there is no point to this question. I would neither circ or FF. If I lived in some kind of society where it was a law to do one or the other, or I had a SO who insisted on one, I would choose not to have children.


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

I've actually thought about this question before. The reason is because:

I was never breastfed. My mom told me she was uncomfortable with having a baby suck on her breasts.








I wound up being allergic to the formula and spent the first 3 weeks of my life crying for hours on end until I was switched to soy formula. I have to wonder what kind of effect that had on me. At least she learned from that experience and partially breastfed her next 2 children. Both my brother and sister's IQ's are higher than mine (just a few points higher) and neither have as bad as allergies as I do so I'm disappointed she didn't at least try it. But at least I have the genitals I was born with.

My dh was circed and breastfed. So it was the other way around for him. He has asthma and allergies that frequently cause him problems so they may have been even worse if he hadn't been breastfed. Yet he is missing an important part of his genitals and that really makes me sad.

Since something like this wouldn't realistically happen I'm glad I don't have to worry about making a choice. I just don't think I could cut my child no matter the reason though. But on the other hand my oldest child is my only one who wasn't breastfed at least a year (5 mo only) and she was constantly sick and on medication many times. All 3 of my other children (including the twins who were 2 months early) never got anything more than a slight cold while being breastfed. None of them have been on antibiotics ever while breastfed.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
I've removed posts that were inappropriate and or taking the thread off topic. Let's please keep to the discussion posted by the OP. If you take issue with the question and cannot post appropriately then please refrain from posting.

This thread is reopened for discussion.











Ooooh, I was really busy and didn't see the flames. Anyone care to share them with me by PM?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FranklySpeaking*
I don't believe a baby cares where the milk/formula comes from or tastes like, they just want to be fed, so it's the mother who wants breast feeding. Forget about the health benefits for now.

There has never been a baby born that wanted painful cutting done anywhere on his body. This also falls into the category of a mother's wants.

If it's all about Mom's want, why shouldn't it be Mom who gets cut? If it were you that wanted to breast feed, would you give up your external genitalia and the corresponding sexuality plus endure excruiating pain during and after the procedure to breast feed?

This is a good point. I like the breastfeeding for selfish reasons as well as the health benefits for baby.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
Oh, the intactivism, definitely. There are plenty of people out there advocating breastfeeding, so it's likely she'd get that kind of info from someone else. But I may be the ONLY person she comes in contact with who says, "Leave your son intact."

Excellent point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
Personally, I think in general not circ'ing would be the more effective battle. Once you've gotten people to leave the hospital with an intact son, I think you have a good chance that they're not going to have him circ'd later on (especially since he'll seem more and more like a "real person" as time goes on). Leaving him intact becomes the course of least resistance. But there are lots of women who are talked into bf'ing and who aren't successful at it because bf'ing requires continuing effort. So you could talk her into it during pg, but have a high chance of her changing her mind later.


Good point. If you fight to get them to breastfeed, they'll probably still wean at 3 months or something.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatScarlett*
Tara, thanks for that.

Also just so you know I did circ my oldest son and as it turned out he did have a condition that could have easily made having been cut life-threatening for him. He had a rare blood disorder called neutropenia, which means that he didn't have enough white blood cells to fight off infection. If his circ had became even the tiniest little bit infected or there was any kind of complication what-so-ever it could have easily been disastrous for my DS! Unfortunately we had no idea his white cell count was compromised until well after his circ. We actually found out when he was 7 weeks old and admitted to the hospital with a severe pneumonia. They did a routine blood test and were stunned at what they saw, they did it again and his numbers were even worse. He had almost no immune system (thank GOD that I had chosen to BF him!).

Because of my experience with that I have actually been working for YEARS to get the hospitals in our area to run routine CBC's before performing circ's. It's a simple blood test that can be done quickly and cheaply to check for any kind of anomoly before putting a newborn under the knife. As I tell the local hospitals here all the time the ONLY surgery a hospital would even consider doing without one iota of medical background on the patient on which they intent to operate is circ, and that's just WRONG! I am adamently opposed to circ at all but if they HAVE to do them I think the only responsible way to even consider surgery on a newborn is with the most preliminary and basic of blood work ups to get some kind of idea of the general health and well being of the child beforehand. If I had any idea that circ could have been even the slightest danger to DS1 I would have never for one moment have considered it. I think hospital's owe it to parents to first and foremost impress upon them that circ is in no way medically necessary or beneficial and then secondly, if the parents insist upon it, they should insist on routine blood work to establish some kind of medical awareness about the child and his well being.

Like I said, I still think it should be illegal but we're not there yet.

~ Patti
mom of 5


Wow, I learn something new every day.







I had never thought about the CBC thing and blood disorders....I am so glad your son didn't get an infection from his circ!

Just when you think the whole circ thing couldn't put the entire medical profession in any worse of a light....it does.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"

But this happens all the time in the US: EPISIOTOMY.

(And women have their internal genitals/reproductive organs cut too via c-section. These rates are incredibly high as well.)

mv


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi*
But this happens all the time in the US: EPISIOTOMY.

(And women have their internal genitals/reproductive organs cut too via c-section. These rates are incredibly high as well.)

mv

Much as I abhor the outrageously high rate of c-sections and episiotomies in this country, I do think there's a difference between infant circ and c-sections/episiotomies. Infant circ is 100% unnecessary and removes half of a baby's erogenous tissue, thereby permanently damaging his sexual capability. As damaging as episiotomies/c-sections can be, they're not deliberately designed to remove necessary and functional tissue. Also, in many instances (at least for c-sections, and even sometimes for episiotomies) these surgeries are necessary.

As educated as I was about episiotomy and as determined as I was to avoid one, I still ended up with one - that I consented to, because it was necessary. Although healing from it was unpleasant and it definitely affected my sex life, it didn't remove half of the nerve endings in my genitals.

Also, I think the consent issues are different. Although too many women are ignorant of the risks of these surgeries (and their doctors don't do nearly enough to inform them) at least in theory they are adults capable of giving informed consent. Babies can never give informed consent (and parents should not legally or ethically be able to give informed consent for a medically unnecessary procedure).


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatScarlett*
Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.

For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy).

So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again.

I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 cut









Patti, I understand your situation and the conundrum was not aimed at you or intended to offend anyone. I understand that FF is not possible for you and that you must BF.

Frank


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank

Can I answer? I'd breastfeed. Heck, I'd BREASTFEED *hint hint slurp slurp* and I'm a grown woman!









~Nay


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I wouldn't want to make the choice. So I can't answer directly the OP's question. BUT...
I feel very differently about people who choose to FF and people who choose to circ after knowing all of the facts. Even though it's sad when a baby won't get breastfed, I don't feel angry or upset about it. I am, however, getting upset and angry about people who have been informed of the facts about circing, and who still do it.
I'd be more likely to find a way to stay away from someone who knowingly circ'ed, than someone who chose to ff. I guess the thing with bf'ing is that it involves a part of the mother's body too, so she has a right to have a say in it (I have a friend who didn't continue bf because it felt sexual and made her feel icky. she has issues, but I respect her decision, kwim?). No one has a right to choose to have cosmetic surgery on someone else.

So...I guess that doesn't answer anything, but that's my viewpoint.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:
If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

If this question isn't straight out of the Inquisition, I don't know what is.

I'd breastfeed, and have a portion of my genitals removed....like can happen in an episiotomy where no pain relief is given and portions of the clitoris as well as the bowel can be so badly damaged as to require surgery later, infection, or even death for mother or baby during future pregnancies. And don't think that most women get informed consent for episiotomy.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

My DH was circed and formula-fed. I grieve his circumcision every day, 36 years later, knowing that we shouldn't be struggling the way we do.

I never give his formula-fed status a second thought.

For me, the choice is so obvious.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank

Don't you mean, if it were YOUR genitals which were to be left intact and you ff your baby, or YOUR genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management AND breastfeeding, which would you choose?









Yikes! In that case, I would choose to have no children. I personally think that this whole question is a false dichotomy, since it seems most mainstream people ff and circ., whereas most "alternative" people bf and leave intact. But that's just my experience.
I would have to choose leaving myself intact and ff.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank

Frank, this is just silly. I think both the conscious choice to FF for no good reason (i.e. adoption, breast cancer, a metabolic disorder or disease that means BF is contraindicated) and infant circumcision are human rights violations.

Circ is certainly way more painful than not BF done without anesthesia but both have lifelong health implications and can lead to death. 720 babies under 1 DIE in the US every year because they were not BF - I can post the link to the Journal of Pediatrics if you want. Then there's the increased lifelong risk of childhood leukemia, other cancers, Type I diabetes, asthma/allergies, obesity - all of these conditions can be life-threatening. I think most people would choose life over the risk of death, which is why babies should be BF if at all possible and not circed, because you never know which baby is going to suffer the fatal consequences of either FF or circ.

Both circ and FF (without necessity) are bad. I refuse to choose which is worse, because I don't believe there's a general rule that can be established that applies in all circumstances.

Women in this country aren't faced with the choice of having their own genitals *removed* vs. breastfeeding, although I did have my own vagina cut to get my son out (and then tore along the scar tissue while birthing my dd and have to have stitches, and later cautery). So it's a false dichotomy, and I refuse to choose.

And please let's not start an FGM vs. MGM debate. All unnecessary genital surgeries performed on unconsenting people for cultural reasons are equally wrong, no matter the degree of severity.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi*
I'd breastfeed, and have a portion of my genitals removed....like can happen in an episiotomy where no pain relief is given and portions of the clitoris as well as the bowel can be so badly damaged as to require surgery later, infection, or even death for mother or baby during future pregnancies. And don't think that most women get informed consent for episiotomy.

Although I will be the last person to minimize the harms of episiotomy, having undergone them myself, the complications you describe are not routine. Unlike infant circumcision, which invariably removes half of the erogenous tissue of the penis - on purpose. It's a 100% complication rate.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank

Breastfeed Frank. With the birth of my first son, I had an episiotomy(skin crawling as I write this), very painful(unmedicated), that wasn't properly sutured. For the next three years, everytime sex was initiated, it was very painful for me. This problem wasn't corrected until the scar line was recut during the birth of my second son(this time with pain relief) and sutured properly. I was under the impression that this was "normal". That that was just what happened after giving birth and having an episiotomy(painful sex)

Even after that experience, I would still bf and be cut(myself) before I would ff my baby. Having said that though, I put my childs bodily integrity before all else. Circumcision, to me, is the absolute worst thing you could do to a baby. So to answer the OP, ff before circ. And to answer you, cut myself before ff.

Take care,
Tara


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Both circ and FF (without necessity) are bad. I refuse to choose which is worse, because I don't believe there's a general rule that can be established that applies in all circumstances.

So it's a false dichotomy, and I refuse to choose.


thanks for stating it so succinctly, j. (but then i've thought you fabulous ever since the great native plant debate of 2002







)

susan


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## Terpatude (Nov 19, 2004)

We have been in this situation..DS was adopted at a very young age..His wonderful Birthparents left him intact (THANK YOU!!) but due to a pituitary tumor , I was unable to nurse him..the tumor would have probably killed me if I did not take the medicine.. It was physically impossible to nurse him...He was placed in foster care for three weeks..(Birthparent's decision)...The 53 year old foster mother didn't nurse him so he was already on formula when he arrived home....IF I had had the opportuniyt to chose between nursing him and cutting off part of his gentials, I wouldhave chosen the Formula any day...

BTW IF I could have had the chance in some magical world to breast feed him IF I myself was cut, then I would have done it in a flash...


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I seem to be in the minority regarding Frank's question. I wonder if you who would get cut in order to BF are making any distinction between regular formula and homemade organic varieties... I ask b/c I really do.

For me, I'd keep the entire family whole b/c it is important for child that mom is able to be freely giving and genuinely happy. Mom's getting cut would definitely adversly affect baby.

But I do draw a line at the type of artificial feeding - relative to how harmful I see it. I would get cut before feeding standard poisionous formula. That's true even though I did supp my EBM with that poison crap at first. It tore me to pieces to put that bottle in his mouth. Once I was recovered enough to have the strength to feed him cleaner, organic and homemade milk, I did that - and kept pumping. And I'd choose that over getting cut, for the reasons mentioned above.

But even still it's a perceived risk vs perceived reward ratio. I think we all here would put baby's highest good first, as we interpret that. If we somehow were given this situation of figuring out the lesser of two (or least of several) evils, we'd all do what we thought best for the child, and we take issue with those we meet who do not think that way.

Somewhat pointless exercise, but interesting perspective about my priorities has come out. Hope this has made at least a little sense - I'm tired and have been interrupted 100 times while typing...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
720 babies under 1 DIE in the US every year because they were not BF - I can post the link to the Journal of Pediatrics if you want.

I would love the link. (do I count? hehehe) I know lots of people who think ff is perfectly fine, but are hoorified that some of the things that *I* do are dangerous to my ds (extended bf'ing, co-sleeping, selective/delayed/no vaxes, not punishing- yes, I've been told how dangerous that is for him. lol).
Youur info seems like good info to have!!!

Thanks


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## momof3sweeties (Oct 16, 2005)

_And don't think that most women get informed consent for episiotomy._

I sure didn't.









When I was to deliver my first son it was planned at the birthing center with my midwives. Totally natural planned birth. When I was laboring in the jacuzzi tub I suddenly had an abnormal amount of bleeding. I was taken to the hospital as a precaution the midwives was worried about my placenta and the baby, everything ended up being fine but I had to deliver at the hospital. The Dr. decided to cut me without my consent. I had never wanted an episiotomy. My midwife was there and was shocked because it all happened so fast, she said it was completely unnecessary.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I would love the link. (do I count? hehehe) I know lots of people who think ff is perfectly fine, but are hoorified that some of the things that *I* do are dangerous to my ds (extended bf'ing, co-sleeping, selective/delayed/no vaxes, not punishing- yes, I've been told how dangerous that is for him. lol).
Youur info seems like good info to have!!!

Thanks


Quote:

Objective. Breastfed infants in the United States have lower rates of morbidity, especially from infectious disease, but there are few contemporary studies in the developed world of the effect of breastfeeding on postneonatal mortality. We evaluated the effect of breastfeeding on postneonatal mortality in United States using 1988 National Maternal and Infant Health Survey (NMIHS) data.

Methods. Nationally representative samples of 1204 infants who died between 28 days and 1 year from causes other than congenital anomaly or malignant tumor (cases of postneonatal death) and 7740 children who were still alive at 1 year (controls) were included. We calculated overall and cause-specific odds ratios for ever/never breastfeeding among all children, conducted race and birth weight-specific analyses, and looked for duration-response effects.

Results. Overall, children who were ever breastfed had 0.79 (95% confidence interval [CI]: 0.67-0.93) times the risk of never breastfed children for dying in the postneonatal period. Longer breastfeeding was associated with lower risk. Odds ratios by cause of death varied from 0.59 (95% CI: 0.38-0.94) for injuries to 0.84 (95% CI: 0.67-1.05) for sudden infant death syndrome.

Conclusions. Breastfeeding is associated with a reduction in risk for postneonatal death. This large data set allowed robust estimates and control of confounding, but the effects of breast milk and breastfeeding cannot be separated completely from other characteristics of the mother and child. Assuming causality, however, promoting breastfeeding has the potential to save or delay ~720 postneonatal deaths in the United States each year.
link


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof3sweeties*
_And don't think that most women get informed consent for episiotomy._

I sure didn't.









When I was to deliver my first son it was planned at the birthing center with my midwives. Totally natural planned birth. When I was laboring in the jacuzzi tub I suddenly had an abnormal amount of bleeding. I was taken to the hospital as a precaution the midwives was worried about my placenta and the baby, everything ended up being fine but I had to deliver at the hospital. The Dr. decided to cut me without my consent. I had never wanted an episiotomy. My midwife was there and was shocked because it all happened so fast, she said it was completely unnecessary.

I had in writing to not give me one! My first and 3rd babies both had 36.5cm heads--on the large side. Ds2 had a 33.5cm head (on the small side--he was 2 weeks early, ds1 & 3 were 40 weekers.) I wasn't cut and didn't tear w/ the 2 bigger ones and my sOB cut me unnecessarily w/ ds2.







: I still feel violated.

The worst part is, I was pushing before she got there and the nurse screamed at me to stop pushing when the baby started crowning and I got scared and tried not to push (and any woman who's had that happen to them knows how that feels!) So I waited for my doc to come and cut me for no reason! I should have pushed that baby out and either caught him mysef (like I did w/ ds1, w/ my wonderful first OB's help) or had dh catch him.







:







:

As for the question posed, I still won't answer it b/c I think it's dumb to try and choose between 2 horrible things when the choice will surely never really have to be made irl. But I will say that like a lot of mothers, I put my child's safty/well-being ahead of my own. Isn't that what mothers do?


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Speaking of cutting, I didn't have an episiotomy with my son, but I did tear pretty bad, mainly because the OB on call wouldn't let me push squatting, and also because once his head was out she literally yanked him out of me. So much for gentle, eh? It was a natural birth, I didn't want any drugs and at the time I had no idea I'd tore. So when she looked at me and said, "You want drugs?" I thought she was talking about for the baby, so I told her no. So she proceded to stitch me without any painkiller. It was very painful and I let her get half done before asking the nurse "What the ((bleep)) is she doing!!?" I then got a shot of lidocaine (I think).









Next time will be a homebirth/waterbirth! Yay!!

~Nay


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:

If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you've already answered this, please forgive me. I didn't go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again.

Frank

Like you noted before and I agreed, breastfeeding can be partially selfish; it is pleasurable physically and emotionally. Not circing your child has no selfish component.

I am having a hard time with the pronouns or lack thereof in your question. I guess you mean, would I get circumcised if that were required to be able to breastfeed my baby? Well, if it were just the clitoral hood, maybe. Is that the analogue to current circumcision styles? If it were everything on the outside, then probably not.

But, like I said before, for my original question, gun to my head, ridiculous fantasy world, I would choose breastfeeding. My experience is my husband, who is circumcised but terrible hearing and ear problems from being fed formula - he says he wishes for breastfed health more than he wishes he had a foreskin. Now you will say, Frank, that he doesn't know what he is missing, and that is true. But you know how I have mourned his circumcision, and he has too. But I still pick the lifetime of good health for my hypothetical family over the foreskin.

Now, having said all that, I would choose to advocate for not circing over bfing, b/c as someone pointed out, once they leave that kid intact, it is likely he will stay that way, whereas lots of women give up bfing quickly. Also, you know how much of an intactivist I am; when women come to this forum saying their husbands want to circ, my advice is tell them it is the foreskin or them, no compromise, no concern for the marriage, no nothing, so I don't think you get to cast me as some sort of a villain here. I do think you make a good point that it is easy to cause pain when it is not your own, and that may make people think. But remember this was all for discussion, and not for persecution.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I asked my dh which one he would choose. He said ff and keep his son intact. Now of course he has never been a bf'ing mom but he does have two beautiful bf'ed and intact (girl/boy) children. My dh was circed and ff'ed.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

heck I would cut thier hand off before I gave them formula. definitely breastfeed. the health and brain benifits of breastmilk far exceed the benifits of a foreskin.

but I agree. i can't imagine having to make that choice. but some women have to fight for every inch of natrual parenting and this might be a choice thier dh would have them make. kinda we each get to choose one thing important to us. so I can see this being a real choice (although far fetched) for some women.


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## birthdancedoula (Nov 13, 2002)

I'd never in a million years circ a child or FF. I'f I was unable to BF I'd either gather all of my lactating mama friends or be on the steps of a milk bank. At first I thought FF would be worse than circ b/c of all the restoration procedures, etc, but then I had a flashback to the baby I saw being strapped down. I also think about the stories I've heard about babies dying b/c they couldn't tolerate non-human milk. A foreskin and breastmilk are a baby boy's birthright. I don't think there's a lesser evil here.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
My DH was circed and formula-fed. I grieve his circumcision every day, 36 years later, knowing that we shouldn't be struggling the way we do.

I never give his formula-fed status a second thought.

For me, the choice is so obvious.

Ditto!!! (Except it is 28 years later in the case of my dh). I also asked my dh (who was both circed and ff) if he could have been either breastfed or left intact which he'd choose... and he said he'd rather be left intact, no question.

I think choosing not to mutilate your newborn baby is hands down the most important new parenting decision you can make. IMO it makes the benefits of bf look minor in comparison. I don't know if I would have been able to fully understand the importance of not circing if I didn't have a son of my own. I'm not sure if I ever would have watched a circ video, found these boards, or taken up this cause if I had had a daughter. I probably wouldn't have emphasized with a dd how we all should have the right to genital integrity... but I'm sure I would have talked about how important it is to bf. Then maybe I would have ended up one day with a bf grandson who got circed. I find this potential scenario completely horrifying, and it makes me extremely thankful to have my boy


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## Piratemomma (Jun 16, 2004)

Intact and FF. In fact my son was left intact, but FF (DD was BF).

For me it comes down to the fact that circ is permanent in every possible way. If you FF you can do other things to boost your childs immunities. Are they perfect, no, but at least you have more options to do so. You can't do that with circ.


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## Girl Named Sandoz (Jul 16, 2002)

Well, I'm an intactivist as well as a lactivist. I'm still nursing my 3-year-old and strongly believe in child-led weaning.

All that said, I'd still choose leaving him intact over breastfeeding him. I see circumcision as genital mutilation (on boys and girls) and I could never knowingly consent to having my sweet son permanently mutilated.

There are drawbacks to being formula fed but they aren't AS severe as permanent mutilation. My DH is intact and was FF, and he'd tell you he'd choose being intact over being breastfed any day (and he is a HUGE supporter of breastfeeding).


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Count me as one of those who really doesn't understand what is to be gained by posing this question. It always bothers me when people want to create a hierarchy of wrongs; too often it leads to petty arguing. I guess it's useful if it helps people define what is important to them--which I think has happened to some degree here-- but mosly I just cringe when I see questions like this.

FWIW, I would do everything I could to keep my baby healthy and to treat him or her respectfully. I cannot imagine a situation in which I would be forced to choose.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Circumcision is far far worse than formula... I don't understand the point of the original question?


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## ScotchIrishMommy (Oct 16, 2004)

I think circ is far worse than ff. One diff b/t the two - there is no imposition on the mother's body whatsover to not circ.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

I don't have a problem with the question. I think it is just an interesting intellectual exercise, helps us think about our reasons for our positions. Of course there is no "right" answer, it's just to make you think.
I would choose intact. At least FF babies are FED.
Here's another perspective I thought of: on the one hand, circ'd babies are actively assaulted and harmed outright so maybe that is worse than passively being denied the benefits of BF. BUT otoh, parents who circ for "health reasons" do so because they really believe it is for the child's best interest, while those who can't be bothered to breastfeed make that choice knowing they are NOT doing the best for the child. So when viewed by the end results you could say the permanent loss of a body part is worse than potentially worse health, but when viewed by the intent of the parents it is`worse to choose to do something you KNOW is not good for the child than to do something your trusted doctors and family told you is really good for the child.
I breastfeed because it is a child's birthright. I don't believe I do it for any selfish reasons. There are benefits I get such as convenience and reduced breast cancer risk (but unfortunately NOT weight loss like everyone said would happen







) but I view those as side benefits and not reasons to bf in the first place. I would still bf even if it were more inconvenient, costly, painful for me and harder than ff. Because the child deserves it whether or not it is easy or beneficial for me.
But I would cut off my own breasts (and find another way to feed the babe) before I would cut off part of my baby's body.

Jen


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I am a huge bfing advocate and so is my (intact) dh, but as he just said, ff doesn't involve mutilation so we would have to go with not circing and not bfing.

I wouldn't ff though. I would get fresh goat milk instead









love and peace.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The more I have thought about this question the more I realize there is no way I could watch my son being circed and since I'd never let my baby have a procedure like that done w/o me it just wouldn't happen. So I would have to ff and not circ, really I'd hope I had a very cool mama friend who would donate bm to me.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I would not cut my childrens hands off to breastfeed. I would not cut their clitoris. I would not cut their penis.

I am not a cutter. Knifes and babies don't mix.


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