# Is Wal-Mart Good for America?



## mirlow (Nov 20, 2001)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

edited to say I think this is on tonight. Check your local stations.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I watched that lat night ... kind of stumbled on it. Totally makes me rethink our Sam's membership







: and any shopping I've ever done at Walmart. Those poor people who have lost their jobs because of the price crud that walmart does.


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

I also watched it last night, and although I didn't learn anything I didn't already know it was upsetting.


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## tmommyfish1 (Feb 2, 2004)

I love Frontline. DH says it is the best show on television and I would have to agree. This just totally reaffirmed my dislike of wal-mart. I refuse to shop there and will not give my money to this company.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

I watched this show as well. I had no idea about the massive amounts of outsourcing. Maybe I'm naive. But wow. I'm not planning on getting a Sam's membership anymore and when DH's expires, he won't be renewing. I'm also not planning on shopping at WalMart anymore. They seem like big bullies. Did you see the very beginning with all those people at the big WalMart convention? uke

Of course, I'm sure this is how most of the big box retailers work, including Target. So now I'm conflicted. Where should I buy my toothbrushes, socks, toiletries, sponges, and kitty litter (to name a few)?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *be11ydancer*
Of course, I'm sure this is how most of the big box retailers work, including Target. So now I'm conflicted. Where should I buy my toothbrushes, socks, toiletries, sponges, and kitty litter (to name a few)?

IMO Target is somewhat less evil - as they give more back to the community and participate more in it -
For example, WalMart prints and distributes all of their own circulars. They don't employ any printing companies to do that.
Target, however, outsources the printing, and pays the local newspapers to distribute. This is very relevant to me as I work at a newspaper and I know that a significant chunk of our income is from distributing these ads. By paying us to distribute their ads, Target is actually keeping more money flowing in the local economy, as opposed to WalMart.

Target also is on the list of top 100 best companies for working mothers and has a relatively high score on the Human Rights Campaign 2003 Corporate Equality Index. They have a non-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation.

They give a certain percent (.5%? I forget) of purchases to area schools too.

Plus I am in







with Target's policy of marking things down on clearance.

http://www.responsibleshopper.org/ for more info on both.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

1) Does anyone besides Sam Walton and Fam actually think WalMart is *good* for America? Really?

2) I wish Target had a better return policy. I know a whole group of people who boycott Target for those reasons and more. I *wish* I had a Target in my town, I'd much rather shop there, personally. Cleaner.


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't shop at Walmart, primarily because it's an unpleasant place to be. I don't like standing in long lines, and a lot of their clientele are not the sort of people I want to spend time with. I do think they tend to give their employees the shaft, and are very punitive towards their competitors and suppliers.

Having said that, I am in favor of international trade, and I don't have a problem with outsourcing. A lot of consumers are able to get goods more cheaply at Walmart than they would elsewhere, which is a good thing. I suppose you have to look at the total picture: do more people benefit from their cheaper goods than are exploited by the company? I can't answer that.

On a side note, a recent column in Forbes magazine advised against buying shares in Walmart. Not because it was a bad company, but because they felt that its primary customer base, i.e., middle and low income folks, would have less money to spend there, as their economic prospects are increasingly unfavorable. Conversely, firms that provide luxury goods and services are doing incredibly well, since the top tier of society continues to do very well economically. The fairly obvious point, of course, was that the rich continue to get richer, while most everyone else gets poorer.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I missed the beginning but they showed the big "rah rah" walmart convention at the end ...







: I too had no idea of how underhanded their business seems to be. I much prefer Target anyway (though the prices at walmart are really low) and I didn't know that they were better for the local communities ... yay Target! At least I don't need to stop shopping there. But talking dh into stopping our Sam's club membership is going to be a tough sell ... does anyone know anything about Costco? Are they as bad as Sam's?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
...But talking dh into stopping our Sam's club membership is going to be a tough sell ... does anyone know anything about Costco? Are they as bad as Sam's?

http://www.responsibleshopper.org/ba...m?cusip=22160K

That's what I found at ResponsibleShopper. I don't know beyond that..


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hilary Briss*
A lot of consumers are able to get goods more cheaply at Walmart than they would elsewhere, which is a good thing. I suppose you have to look at the total picture: do more people benefit from their cheaper goods than are exploited by the company?

I'm curious. Exactly how much abuse are you willing to heap on other people in order to buy your own household supplies a little bit cheaper.

It's my understanding that some cheap imported goods are produced literally by slave labor. To me that crosses the line to ethically unacceptable.

So let's move up the scale to workers who aren't actually slaves. How abusive can the working conditions be and it's still OK as long as you save a dollar? What about if you only save a penny? Is it still worth abusing someone?

I don't know the answer either, but I do know that everything you buy cost someone's life energy to make and your own life energy to buy. I certainly understand why you would be more willing to sacrifice a stranger's life energy than your own, but ethically, shouldn't the trade be at least somewhat even?

--AmyB


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## M2K (Sep 8, 2004)

my husband is a manager at walmart, so obviously we shop there, they pay our bills afterall







I know a lot of people don't like walmart, and I can't really say I like everything about walmart, but if I can get things cheaper, Im going to shop there, if targets got the sale, Im there, Im not really loyal to one store over another.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

We don't shop there anymore but its something I had to decide to do. I grew up in Missouri where any town that was anything had a Walmart. Its the lifeblood of small towns now. I know they have run a lot of small businesses out but now they serve a significant role in rural towns. Its a place that people without a lot of money can go and afford all the things they need and get it all in one place, which is nice when you have to drive an hour to get to the closest Walmart.
I have many relatives that live rurally and shop no where but Walmart and the Hardware/feed store for all their needs. I also have an aunt that has worked there nearly 20 years and loves the company.

We don't shop there any more because we are doing well enough (not great, but enough) that we can shop other places. Money is a concern for us but so is quality.


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## marisa (Apr 23, 2002)

I shop Kroger. We're broke, but I just can't in good conscience buy products there. I save money in other ways; buying most everything else nonconsumable second hand. Kroger got a pretty decent review on responsibleshopper.org which is good to know!


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

I used to swear I would never touch Walmart with a ten-foot pole... then I moved to a small town in the middle of nowhere.

Walmart is it. That's where I shop. If I can go elsewhere, I do, but mostly, socks and toothbrushes and dog biscuits and kitty litter come from Walmart now. I'd really rather not, and we do try to plan trips out of town to stock up on stuff at better retailers, but the reality is, it's a lot easier to boycott Walmart when you live in an urbar or suburban area than it is in a rural area.

On another note, I love Costco. They are based out of Seattle, treat their workers well (they are unionized) and have a great house brand - Kirkland's. That's where I try to do a lot of shopping so that I can stock up and buy less at Walmart, but the closest one is 65 miles away. That's a lot of gas, so we try to only go every other month or less.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

The Costco CEO has been told several times that he pays his employees too much. My kind of CEO! He has a resonable salary and actually has his office in a Costco store in Kirkland. They aren't a perfect company but they are way better than Sam's Club.


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## tmommyfish1 (Feb 2, 2004)

It is good to hear that Costco is a good company.







They are going to be building one very close to my house (Literally right across the street) and I know I will be doing some shopping there. Yay! Down with Wal-mart! Down with Wal-mart!


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

i live in the town that pushed back.

Walmart has been trying to get here in LA and the other store owners have pushed back.... NO Walmart here. They keep trying and trying...and the city councilman and the market owners have held the wall.

Inglewood is a city just south west of los angeles. It is primarily african american. Walmart came to them guns ablazing...made the biggest case in the world for why they should be in Inglewood. It was put before a vote...NO walmart. Everyone knew that all the small mom and pop stores would die and instant death if walmart arrived.

the closest walmart is far away in the san fernando valley. I did buy one item there but it was after I searched and searched everywhere, I mean everywhere for this one item. They were the only ones that had it. I have no desire to return. I predict it will be our only walmart purchase.

Having said that I did buy a few walmart gift cards for needy moms on last's year's needy christmas thread but that was because that was their choice and need and I just didn't want my opinion in the mix if you know what I mean.


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## mirlow (Nov 20, 2001)

Here's something else to ponder. This article was in our monthly church magazine.
Modern Slavery


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

The Costco CEO has been told several times that he pays his employees too much. My kind of CEO! He has a resonable salary and actually has his office in a Costco store in Kirkland. They aren't a perfect company but they are way better than Sam's Club.
Before the recent election, NPR had a "debate": "Red" Walmart vs "Blue" Costco. It was great to hear the founder of Costco talking about how it is important to provide an adequate living for those at the "bottom" etc...


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## mommytotj (Jun 29, 2004)

I shop at Costco and Target at least once a week so I'm glad to hear that they are good companies.


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## Isabello (Jul 15, 2004)

I'm another person who swore she would never shop at Wal-Mart until one arrived in our isolated island community and put other stores out of business. My family made a few trips a month to the store while my son was in diapers and I learned a few things during those years. One- almost every material item we bought from the store such as socks, bath mat, skirt hangers, broom, has since broken and been replaced by a more expensive, better made item. Two- those trips we made to "save money" actually cost us money because we would pick up a few cheap impulse items (new baby shirt, video, chocolates, etc.) that were not on our list. When looking at our budget, we were shocked to see how much we were spending at Wal-Mart in an effort to save a few bucks on kitty litter and toilet paper. We began pricing the same items at our local grocery stores and found they often meet or beat the Wal-Mart prices and did not have the same number of impulse items to tempt us. Now, we rarely go to Wal-Mart and our weekly grocery/sundries/household budget is lower by about $150 a month. Yes, I still go there for holiday decor stuff or whatever, but never just "to shop." My dad buys my son clothes from Target, another socially responsible retailer who treats its employees well and gives a much larger percentage of its profits to charity. I believe Wal-Mart is at the bottom of that list. In our community they take in some $60,000 a day and return about $10,000 a year to local non-profits. Again, our local grocery store is more generous than that....they give one percent of reciepts turned in to non-profits. I truly believe Wal-Mart is destroying America with its cheap labor practices and junky merchandise. Go to your library and check out "In Sam We Trust" by Bob Ortega and "How Wal-Mart is Destroying America" by Bill Quinn to learn more along the lines of the Frontline report.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

My father has always hated Wal-Mart (union man). I never really understood why though. A few years ago, my husband and I stopped shopping at Wal-Mart initially because the one in our area attracted some very undesirable people. The store was dirty, the parking lot was darn near a death trap and the people, customers and employees alike, were all foul mouthed, rude and pushy (literally pushy). I had found that I could shop in peace at many other stores for only a few pennies more or even the same amount as at Wal-Mart. Since then, my husband has become a die hard union man too. Now our decision not to shop at Wal-Mart is way more serious than not liking the atmosphere. The sad part is that many people around here simply do not care. But, fortunately there were just enough who did care to keep out a Super Wal-Mart!!! Yeah! Unfortunately, I think that many more people in America will have to be hurt by or forced to completely rely on Wal-mart before they care about what is going on. All to often I find that many people simply do not care about others. They probably won't even admit it to themselves, but we do live in very selfish times.







:


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
The Costco CEO has been told several times that he pays his employees too much. My kind of CEO! He has a resonable salary and actually has his office in a Costco store in Kirkland. They aren't a perfect company but they are way better than Sam's Club.

It's true they pay decent wages. They *started* employees at $10/hr here when they opened. And where I live you will have people with degrees fighting for $8/hr.


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## H&HMom (Jul 9, 2004)

I, too, am glad to hear that Target and Costco and good companies. Those are the two stores we frequent for toilet paper and other odds and ends that are too expensive to buy at the grocery store. The nearest Wal-Mart is about 30 minutes away, and is always overcrowded and just a nightmare place to go. I've only been there twice, but after reading all this, I don't think I'll be back!

Laura


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm in a small, rural town. Before I lived here, I didn't shop at WalMart much......shopped Target, Costco, Trader Joes, the local hfs. I still do shop our local hfs, and our Safeway, but I do go to WalMart an awful lot, too. It is really the only place to get the basics. If it wasn't for WalMart, we wouldn't eat as well as we do, we couldn't afford to.

It's very easy to boycott walmart in areas with choice- most urban/suburban areas have tons of alternatives- discount grocery stores (food4less, aldis, etc), 99 cent stores.......and that's where I shopped when I had those options.

I'd shop elsewhere if there were other discount stores around.........but there aren't........and I'm not going to pay 3x's as much for a box of cereal at Safeway than Walmart.......and Safeway isn't such a great place, either.

Lately, I feel that my life has become all about choosing the lesser of the evils, instead of choosing the good.

Kristi


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Target isn't that great according to the responsible shopper site http://www.responsibleshopper.org/ba...m?cusip=239753 Not as bad as Wally world, but not great.

All I have here are Kmart and WalMart. Sigh.

Kristi


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## MoMommy (Oct 8, 2004)

My dh sent me this link today. I'm not crazy about Wal-Mart either, and I didn't see the show, but I just wanted to present another opinion. Please don't flame me! I don't necessarily agree with everything in this column!

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/b...20041119.shtml


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## paddyfinnsmom (Sep 18, 2003)

Ditto to MoMommy. My dh sent me this today as well.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/10218220.htm


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## mirlow (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

A new study from the prestigious National Bureau of Economic Research found that Wal-Mart has a substantial effect on reducing the rate of inflation. For example, it typically sells food for 15 percent to 25 percent less than competing supermarkets. Interestingly, this effect is not captured in official government data. Fully accounting for it would reduce the published inflation rate by as much as 0.42 percentage points, or 15 percent per year.
This is an example of how they get away with selling goods at a lower cost.
Wal-Mart Wants Ten Dollar CD's
Wal-Mart Prices Puts Onus on Suppliers


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mirlow*
This is an example of how they get away with selling goods at a lower cost.
Wal-Mart Wants Ten Dollar CD's
Wal-Mart Prices Puts Onus on Suppliers

The suppliers either go out of business or ship the work overseas so inflation may be decreased but there are also less jobs at decent wages. Eventually, most people will only be able to afford to shop at WalMart because they won't make enough to shop elsewhere. Also, look at what this doing to our trade decifit and our gasoline prices will increase as China demands more and more.

If WalMart is the only game in town, I have no problem with people shopping there, but those of us who do have a choice should take a hard look at things before we shop there.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *be11ydancer*
Where should I buy my toothbrushes, socks, toiletries, sponges, and kitty litter (to name a few)?

Lately I've been buying all that stuff through Wild Oats, Trader Joe's or my food co-op (basically a group of us order from United Natural Foods). I did just buy socks for my baby at Target, though. Maybe greenguide.org has some suggestions. I've never been able to figure it out.


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## NaturalMomie (Sep 2, 2004)

I work in 1hour photo at Kmart and it sucks just as bad. Their return policy sucks, they even hassel me and I work there. All big companies are like this it's just that walmart is so huge that everyone sees it as just them. Kmart wages suck big time. I make $5.70 an hour that is their starting wage for ALL cashiers, I was then moved to photo where I found out that Photo lab actually starts at $5.50, and I was lucky to have started at 5.70. In photo we have to handle dangerous chemicals and handle lottery and western union which if they acount for handling money as their reason that cashiers make more, we can do over $3000 in lottery in a shift, so that's BS!

I know people who worked and work for walmart. They start most cashiers at atleast $6.50, that may not seem like a lot but it's way more then 5.70. I was a book keeper at my last job, a grocery store, making $7.50 an hour. Did Kmart want to hear about my experiance? No, she completly ignored everything I said and told me that hire at 5.70. Hmm, can you tell I'm a bit bitter on the subject.

I am not saying that walmart is great by any means but Kmart and Target both import many goods from china and other countries as well, they just are not as huge as walmart.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Also, Walmart does sell a bunch of "made in usa" stuff.....not all their stuff is from China. They also carry organics.

Kristi


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hilary Briss*
I suppose you have to look at the total picture: do more people benefit from their cheaper goods than are exploited by the company? I can't answer that.

I personally feel that even when people are able to obtain goods more cheaply, that isn't necessarily a benefit to those people in the long run. I think people just end up buying more stuff because they think of everything as disposable or replaceable. There is no sense of needing to conserve. I am just speaking from the perspective of me and my extended family.

When my 10 and 11 year old nieces were visiting, they wanted to go to Wal-Mart all the time. I ended up going 3 times in 2 months although I had avoided it for almost a year before that. Then I ended up spending a lot of money there on things I didn't really need, well, because I am a spender, I guess. So for me it was bad, but it was also bad for my nieces because it creates this expectation that things *should* be cheap, that you are stupid for saving more in other places and buying organic foods or goods locally produced when they cost more. I don't feel that a person's right to cheap stuff ever trumps another person's right to decent treatment, and I feel that is the attitude that we have.

ETA: I first avoided Wal-Mart for the reasons you listed. The aisles were narrow and were laid out in cross sections that were perpendicular to each other instead of in nice, long parallel rows. The diapers were all the way in the back of the store while the wipes were up front in the health and beauty section. The lines always took forever, no matter how many people were in them. I have noticed that a lot of the Wal-Marts are much better, nice wide aisles, lots of cashiers or the self checkout kiosks. And they do give money to the community in certain ways. I still end up shopping other places. I don't want other stores to close and end up with Wal-Mart the only game in town.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

I saw this Frontline and was quite impressed--although most of it I already knew. As I was watching it, I was envisioning a society where we all worked at Wal-Mart, because that's where all the jobs were, and all of us could afford to shop only there. I wonder if that's in their business model somewhere. One thing I thought was interesting was how they treat their suppliers and how the business practices have changed with Wal-Mart calling the shots rather than the suppliers. Interesting stuff. I think Wal-Mart is evil. I've only been there twice in my life and I'm never going back.

Wal-Mart proposed opening a super store in my neck of the woods last year and the community organized heavily against it. Mainly it was because Wal-Mart proposed building this HUGE store in a really bad location (residential, no good roads getting in & out of it). The city council had Wal-Mart present studies & evidence showing that it wouldn't hurt the community & they had a series of hearings about it. I was pregnant at the time & on bed rest, so I watched every hearing in its entirety on cable access. It turns out Wal-Mart used really deceitful tactics and just assumed the people of the city were stupid and would believe everything they said. They didn't, and the city defeated them. It was good to watch the Wal-Mart exec & attorney get chewed out by the mayor and city commissioners. They were so arrogant.

Btw, Costco isn't completely unionized. I think I read somewhere they're 20% unionized. I could find the exact figure, but I'm not at work now, so don't have it. But they do pay their employees well and have decent benefits.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

From the link Paddyfinnsmom posted:

Quote:

To accept the premise that Wal-Mart is somehow not good for America is to accept the premise that people harm themselves by seeking the best value in the marketplace at the best price.
Yep, I guess I was making that point and the author obviously thinks it is a ridiculous one. He just assumes that the marketplace is really free and open, and I guess you have to accept his premise in order to agree with him.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amywillo*
I personally feel that even when people are able to obtain goods more cheaply, that isn't necessarily a benefit to those people in the long run. I think people just end up buying more stuff because they think of everything as disposable or replaceable. There is no sense of needing to conserve. I am just speaking from the perspective of me and my extended family.

When my 10 and 11 year old nieces were visiting, they wanted to go to Wal-Mart all the time. I ended up going 3 times in 2 months although I had avoided it for almost a year before that. Then I ended up spending a lot of money there on things I didn't really need, well, because I am a spender, I guess. So for me it was bad, but it was also bad for my nieces because it creates this expectation that things *should* be cheap, that you are stupid for saving more in other places and buying organic foods or goods locally produced when they cost more. I don't feel that a person's right to cheap stuff ever trumps another person's right to decent treatment, and I feel that is the attitude that we have.

I agree with this. However, on the flip side, stores shouldn't overcharge because they can.....I'm thinking of some hfs, Whole Foods, and mom/pop stores in rural ares. Now, not ALL mom/pop stores in rural areas do this, but many (at least in the neighboring towns where I live) overcharge for the products they sell because they CAN. They are the ONLY store within 45 miles, so they know that people have to pay what they charge, or drive for 45 minutes.......which many people can't. Whole foods markets are usually in upscale areas, and overcharge imo. Because they can. Trader Joe's sells much of the same stuff for much less.

It seems like we live in a time of extremes- do any chains sell things for a reasonable cost?

This even happens in WAHM-land. There are WAHMs who retail diapers and other products, and charge (imo) way too much above retail. WHY? I'm a WAHM and know the wholesale costs of many products, and it amazes me to see some wahms sell them for a few dollars more than other wahms and the msrp.

The link about the music industry was interesting to me- the breakdown of where the CD money goes was very informative. Not much goes to the artist. If the record co. took less, then the artist would get more and CD's would cost less, which I think they should.

It's all about greed and the money.

I don't think most poor/low income folks go to walmart and load up on all the cheap "fancy extras" like tvs and such. They are simply able to afford food and clothes.

We can only afford Safeway if we use coupons during a sale; and we go to get their marked-down meat. Safeway charges alot more than Wal-mart.....alot.

I'm not sure if WalMart is the cause or the symptom. But I'm glad to have somewhere reasonable to shop. I shouldn't have to pay 4.00 for a box of cereal; or 1.00/lb for pinto beans......those aren't reasonable prices imo. That's a huge markup to provide the comany CEO's more money.

Sorry if this isn't clear. I just don't think WalMart is THE evil corporation in America. I think Nike is way more evil......and Disney. Disney spends about 80 cents to manufacture (in China) a stuffed animal that they then sell for 20.00. That is just disgusting. Even more disgusting is that people pay for that stuff. That infuriates me way more than Wal-Mart LOWERING prices.

Kristi


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole*
I agree with this. However, on the flip side, stores shouldn't overcharge because they can.....

I agree, and I think it is ultimately all part of the same phenomenon.

Quote:

This even happens in WAHM-land. There are WAHMs who retail diapers and other products, and charge (imo) way too much above retail. WHY? I'm a WAHM and know the wholesale costs of many products, and it amazes me to see some wahms sell them for a few dollars more than other wahms and the msrp.
Well, then there are WAHMS who make their own product, and if there is a huge demand, people will pay. I've seen this discussed through the years and the prevailing attitude is that a diaper is a work of art and a wahm should get what she can out of it.

OK, I can buy that, but not the diapers that are resold on auction. I have no interest in paying more than half of what a used diaper sold for as new. I've seen complaints at various times where sellers that their diapers aren't bringing in as much money as they had hoped, probably because they've heard stories of people selling their diapers for more than they paid. I actually like Kushies Classics and use them, but I'm not buying them used for anymore than $3 or $4 a diaper. My hard to get wahm dipes that I paid through the nose for are now so old that no one even knows who the wahms are anymore, so I plan to freecycle my diapers when I'm done. Oops, I'm off topic, huh?

Quote:

I don't think most poor/low income folks go to walmart and load up on all the cheap "fancy extras" like tvs and such. They are simply able to afford food and clothes.
I wasn't thinking of tvs and fancy extras, I was thinking more along the lines of buying clothing, toys, CDs, makeup, stuff like that. It is very easy to spend money and people may end up buying more than they need. At least this is what I have seen in my family.

Now my sister is at the point where she knows she doesn't have money, she pays all her bills first and she is seriously lucky if she has $20 left over for food. So they do end up buying the cheapest food they can. I think Wal-Mart is good for that. I buy brands and items that aren't available at Wal-Mart, but if I ever had to buy a bunch of Lunchables or something, I'd either find a sale at the grocery store, go to Winco which is also has low prices, or brave the parking lot and crowds and go to Wal-Mart. Back when I used to regularly shop at Wal-Mart, however, they didn't have a grocery part. Now it seems that every Wal-Mart in town sells groceries too.

Quote:

I just don't think WalMart is THE evil corporation in America. I think Nike is way more evil......and Disney. Disney spends about 80 cents to manufacture (in China) a stuffed animal that they then sell for 20.00. That is just disgusting. Even more disgusting is that people pay for that stuff. That infuriates me way more than Wal-Mart LOWERING prices.
I don't think you can pick Wal-Mart as your sole target and then feel like you are doing well if you only avoid that place and don't look into what other companies are doing. So I try not to do that. I do try to buy as inexpensively as I can, which is why I end up shopping at Trader Joe's. I know that TJ's will be even cheaper on some items than what I can find through the food co-op, and I assume that is because they negotiate those prices and buy on scale which are things that Wal-Mart does too, although I have heard some negatives in regards to how they negotiate. I didn't see the Frontline program and I'm not up on everything about Wal-Mart. I did read Nickel and Dimed, but I had a lot of issues with that book.

In any event, I've been trying to avoid places like Wal-Mart and Target for awhile now, just so I won't spend money. I hear that Costco and the Grocery Outlet have some good deals on organic products, but I don't use Costco enough to justify the yearly fee, and Grocery Outlet is kind of hit or miss, so I never think about it.

I used to specifically shop at Wal-Mart because they advertised stuff made in the USA. They still have stuff made in the USA. I don't know if I'm fooling myself that people are better paid, but when I bought picture frames at Wal-Mart, I made myself buy the ones made in Maine as opposed to the ones from China even though they were more expensive and I liked the Chinese ones better. LOL


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Amywillo, we're on the same page







I rarely shopped Walmart when I lived other places. I LOVED Trader Joes, and did a huge part of my shopping there.....then would supplement with discount groceries for the rest....and the hfs for some hard to find items.

I really miss being able to eat healthy for a reasonable price. No way can I afford the local hfs for everything, their prices are too high. Our Safeway has recently started carrying some organic beef and chicken, and I go snatch it all up when it's on sale









I guess I'm getting off-topic; but my point is that WalMart isn't the ONLY evil out there, it's a problem far larger.........

Kristi


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I personally HATE Walmart, in fact I despise them in a way I used to despise Kmart, but they have surpased even them.

While I accept that Costco is not perfect by any means, it's a heck of a lot better than Walmart or Sams. I really like Costco for what they are, I still shop at Whole Foods also.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Kinda OT, but I was browsing our strip mall yesterday (had to GET OUT OF THE HOUSE NOW!) and wandered into a store we just got called Susie's Deals. http://www.susiesdeals.com/
It is a new-clothes store and everything there is $5 or cheaper. Yes really. The fabrics are really low-quality and stupid me never stopped to consider HOW they could possibly sell jeans for $5. Duh. The whole place is full of sweatshop clothes. I left that place in a hurry.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I love discount stores, but always HATED Susies Deals (they've had them in CA for a while). It just reeked of cheapo quality.

Kristi


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

We used to have susie's deals in our town, & I'd get irregular levi's there for five bucks...so I think they buy odd lots too...but they most likely do the sweatshop thing. Pretty much, that's capitalism for you. It's a system that degrades the worker and promotes the already rich. Until we overthrow the government & become commies that what we're in for!

Seriously, I'm trying to be a better consumer. Walmart is the largest store in town...any Target or Costco is an hour drive & then I'm paying into gasoline evils...I'm trying to avoid by making my own dogfood, shopping thrift stores, etc.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tmommyfish1*
I love Frontline. DH says it is the best show on television and I would have to agree. This just totally reaffirmed my dislike of wal-mart. I refuse to shop there and will not give my money to this company.

This is what I would have said too. I also think its the best show on TV. And I also refuse to shop there or give my $$ to this company.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole*
Also, Walmart does sell a bunch of "made in usa" stuff.....not all their stuff is from China. They also carry organics.

Kristi

I have NEVER seen any of this at Walmart- if anything they drive the MAde in USA to China.

Also, I live in an area where you can choose Target, Kamrt, Walmart, Sam's Costco and all the any others you can think of. Its all with a 10 minute drive. We have Dominicks (Safeway) and Jewel (Albertsons). I personally do not like what Safeway did to Dominicks so I have not shopped there in years. The Jewel is 2 minutes away but I drive another 8 minutes to Trader Joes since we prefer more natural products (Organic milk, veggies etc). We also have a local Mom and Pop who have the best meat in town and good sales. But if I do shop at Jewel, its usually on the perimeter of the store to avoid the processed garbage in the inner aisles. Jewel is also going downhill since Albertsons took over. But they are comparable on a lot of things w Target.

We try to avoid Target as much as possible only because as stated earlier- impulse buys. We go with a list and only if we are on the way somewhere else after to move things along. For example we went yesterday (Sunday) 20 minutes before church. We got out of there quickly but still managd to spend $35. But it was on things we needed and we will avoid that place for a while until we need something else.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Everything has a price. You pay it now or you pay it later. And if you don't pay it, someone else does. Those nice cheap products you buy are Walmart are essentially subsidized by someone else's pain and pocketbook. It's not worth it. I have never bought anything there, never will.

Read the book, Nickel and Dimed and you'll get a nice first-hand account of what it's like to work there, and try to earn a living.

Here's what's going on right now with Walmart in terms of health insurance:

http://www.globalexchange.org/campai...hops/2665.html


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I'm glad this discussion came up- great thread!

Today- the Chicago Tribune reported sales for the holiday weekend/black Friday whatever you want to call it-

Since the link didn't work, here it is...
By Becky Yerak
Tribune staff reporter
Published November 30, 2004
A lack of bargains was blamed for disappointing sales at discount giant Wal-Mart Stores Inc. during the key Thanksgiving weekend. But problems at the world's biggest retailer may be deeper than this year's holiday game plan.
"Wal-Mart's weak November sales growth shows their exposure to a mix of vulnerabilities," said Richard Hastings, retail analyst with Bernard Sands LLC. For one thing, he said, gains in the job market are giving some traditionally low-income consumers the wherewithal to shop elsewhere.
"It's great if you attract lower-income shoppers looking for low prices, but what if those shoppers who were struggling during 2000-03 now have jobs?" Hastings said. "They might be spending more, looking for different merchandise, maybe something Wal-Mart doesn't have."
Wal-Mart said over the weekend that its November sales will be up only 0.7 percent, far short of the 2 percent to 4 percent rise it had projected. The news caused Wal-Mart's stock to close down nearly 4 percent Monday.
But the stumbles at Wal-Mart have drawn much of the attention of retail professionals examining the weekend results.
The conventional wisdom was that Wal-Mart fell out of favor with shoppers--particularly those concerned about high gas prices--because it offered fewer bargains than last year.
But Hastings also believes two recent TV documentaries about Wal-Mart--one on CNBC and the other on PBS--could be eroding the retailer's fan base.
One show posed the question of whether Wal-Mart is a "predatory monster" and talked to critics who said the company's wages were low, its benefits were inadequate and it harmed independent retailers. The other talked to former workers at an electronics plant that was closed because Wal-Mart, its chief customer, found a cheaper Chinese supplier.
"Publicity is not always a good thing," Hastings said. "It's more likely that over time sales are being lost to negative psychological associations."

Electronics dominate
Another problem is that consumers are hot for electronics this year--a category that Wal-Mart does not dominate.
During the Thanksgiving weekend, only 30.4 percent of consumers shopped first for presents at a discount store, including Wal-Mart. That's down from 41.3 percent who scoured the format first in 2003, said Britt Beemer, chairman of America's Research Group.
Electronics stores, meanwhile, were the biggest gainers, getting 20.9 percent of consumers to shop there first, compared with 7.3 percent a year ago.
Hastings points to Wal-Mart's promotion of a $4,935 50-inch wide-screen plasma television with the brand name Tatung.
"Market share is a nice thing if you have the same merchandise as the competition," Hastings said. "But there's a big difference between a Sony plasma TV for $5,000--a slam-dunk brand" and no-name brands.

Wal-Mart's expected 0.7 percent November sales increase is a major slowdown from November 2003, when sales at stores open at least a year rose 3.9 percent, as well as October 2004, when comparable sales were up 2.4 percent.
"It's clear that Wal-Mart's comparables for general merchandise were negative for the month, and food helped pull the total into positive territory," Deutsche Bank analyst Bill Dreher said.
Wal-Mart was "on plan for the first three weeks of the month," he said. But the weekend's development implies "we saw negative comparables for the total company in the final week. It's clearly a slowdown among the lower-end consumer."
Energy costs still a factor
The sales outlook could get gloomier.
"Home heating oil prices are going to be a factor going forward," Dreher said. "It costs only $20 more to fill up a gas tank. It could be like $500 more to fill up a home heating oil tank."
Another Deutsche Bank analyst attributed Wal-Mart's news to its "decision not to promote as much on Black Friday as they had in the past."
But "with Wal-Mart advertising and promoting less, that could be good for the competition," Michael Baker said.
The day after Thanksgiving is called Black Friday because it's typically the period when retailers go from being in the red to being in the black, or profitable.
Indeed, the usually maligned department store sector saw their share of first visits by shoppers rise from 20 percent to 22.2 percent, America's Research Group said.
Retail consultant Howard Davidowitz also sees lower-end retailers having a tougher time.
"You have the masses and the classes," Davidowitz said. "The classes are doing great. Luxury is on fire."

I'm glad the documentries are coming to light. None of this info presented is new, but hopefully it will help get the word out how this type of company is killing America.


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

I have been telling my parents about the evils of wal-mart for years...now that they've seen the pbs documentary they aren't going to shop there anymore. I'm happy that they are not gonna go to wal-mart but why the hell is nothing true or real unless they saw it on tv?







:

Allison


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

Okay. You all convinced me. I'm never going to Walmart again if I can help it. But I want you all to know, I went somewhere else last week to do my grocery shopping, and got what I normally get, and it cost me double, so this ain't easy. Gonna have to make some changes...


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiceMomma*
Okay. You all convinced me. I'm never going to Walmart again if I can help it. But I want you all to know, I went somewhere else last week to do my grocery shopping, and got what I normally get, and it cost me double, so this ain't easy. Gonna have to make some changes...


This is not to bully by any means. I myself went to Walmart Summer of 2003 since a lot of people talked about how much better their prices were etc. I bought a package of diapers that I would have normally bought at Target or Babiesrus. Same package, same quanitity. They were $1 cheaper. There ended up being 4 diapers I could not use. I find that usually there is a diaper every once in a while that I cannot use. So 4 diapers I am not saving any $$. Also to get back in the car with a tot and try to return them would be even more trouble than savings. I also noticed the ounces on several products were lower than what other stores had so you were paying the same price.
So, before going cold turkey, please compare what you are spending on WHAT at Walmart and do the same at the grocery. You might be pleasantly surprised that there are no major changes.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Oprah (I think) did a show once on a lady that wrote a book about WalMart. The author had gone "undercover" by getting a job at Walmart as a cashier. She made friends with the other employees there and wrote a book about them. One poor lady didn't even make enough money for rent. She slept in her car at night, even though she had a job! I've never forgotten that show, I think about it all the time.







Evil Walmart!


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Benji's Mom, I believe you're talking about Barbara Ehrenreich. Her book was called "Nickled and Dimed: On (not) Getting by in America." It was very interesting. More info on the book can be found here .


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I actually heard someone in this thread mention the book and I went to the library and checked it out. Interesting and quick read.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I read that book and was not impressed. I think it had a lot of promise but the author didn't do a very good job with it.

I found the book Growing Up Empty: The Hunger Epidemic In America more eye-opening.

Wal-Mart has a new commercial out--at least it was new to me. It shows a family and the children would rather buy gifts for each other than buy stuff for themselves. They get to go and shop at Wal-Mart, thankfully, because otherwise there is no way they'd be able to buy gifts for everyone in the family. I found that ad disturbing on several levels.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amywillo*
I read that book and was not impressed. I think it had a lot of promise but the author didn't do a very good job with it.

I found the book Growing Up Empty: The Hunger Epidemic In America more eye-opening.

.

I'm going to check the book you mentioned out as well. As far as the Nickol and Dimed- I skipped over a bunch of her reptitive things but the walmart part and table waiting was good. It was a quick read and she really did not uncover anything we already do not know.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Interjecting some humor into the thread..
From this week's Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4049


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

:







:
I love the onion- that was a good one. :LOL


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

even though I hate it. I have a target right down the road. But I can't afford the $8.00 cat litter at target as opposed to the $2.00 cat litter at walmart. Because that $6.00 difference could mean I an put $6.00 towards my phone bill.

I don't buy cds, clothes, tv's, or anything like that there...

I buy hylands teething tablets, cat food, cat litter, before I switched to cloth I bought the Walmart brand disposies because they WORKED and didn't cause a rash on DD. Only one dipe broke on me and it's because I wasn't paying attention on opening it and I tore the strap clean off while arguing about a bill with DH.

I'll get shampoo for DH (he refuses to try apple vinegear), and I'll get the sportwash for my daughters diaper laundry there.

Everything else, I do my best to get at other places like Target. But honestly... for people who have hardly any money. I can't AFFORD to ALWAYS shop at target. I really can't. I'd LIKE to, but financially we are not in the position right now.

I hate to confess this, but my mother bought us a Sam's Club membership and that is where we buy our toliet paper and trash bags because for a family of three (one of whom is in dipes) TP and TB's last about 4 months for us. It's cheaper for us to do it this way and until we get ourselves out of our "poor" situation, it'll just have to do.

I understand Walmart is the big bad evil, but I have to cave to it sometimes if I'm gonna pay my phone bill.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasiuslightning*
even though I hate it. I have a target right down the road. But I can't afford the $8.00 cat litter at target as opposed to the $2.00 cat litter at walmart. Because that $6.00 difference could mean I an put $6.00 towards my phone bill.

I don't buy cds, clothes, tv's, or anything like that there...

I buy hylands teething tablets, cat food, cat litter, before I switched to cloth I bought the Walmart brand disposies because they WORKED and didn't cause a rash on DD. Only one dipe broke on me and it's because I wasn't paying attention on opening it and I tore the strap clean off while arguing about a bill with DH.

I'll get shampoo for DH (he refuses to try apple vinegear), and I'll get the sportwash for my daughters diaper laundry there.

Everything else, I do my best to get at other places like Target. But honestly... for people who have hardly any money. I can't AFFORD to ALWAYS shop at target. I really can't. I'd LIKE to, but financially we are not in the position right now.

I hate to confess this, but my mother bought us a Sam's Club membership and that is where we buy our toliet paper and trash bags because for a family of three (one of whom is in dipes) TP and TB's last about 4 months for us. It's cheaper for us to do it this way and until we get ourselves out of our "poor" situation, it'll just have to do.

I understand Walmart is the big bad evil, but I have to cave to it sometimes if I'm gonna pay my phone bill.

Nobody's faulting you for doing your best with what you have. For those of us who are in better financial standing, it makes sense to put our money where our mouth is and stand up for what we believe in.







We all do the best that we can.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Thank you.


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