# Are you a "Devil" Customer?



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Store are starting to "fire" their trouble customers.

"When a purchase is made, the device records the consumer's name, address, age and transaction details and sends it to The Return Exchange's database. The company says the device is meant to stop shoplifters and other fraud-doers, but it doesn't stop there. Each store inputs certain criteria, such as a high number of returns or a dollar amount on returns, after which a customer's return can be denied."

"Already the Federal Trade Commission has been asked to investigate the legality of stores monitoring and denying customers' returns, and Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) proposed legislation to require stores that do limit returns to warn shoppers of the practice."

OK, granted, this is supposed to weed out people who engage is questionable (but legal!!!) practices, you can also be blacklisted for

*

Buying a product at a discount, such as from the store's selection of "loss leaders," (low-priced products stores lose money on that are designed to attract customers) then reselling it on eBay for a premium price.
*

Finding rock-bottom prices on Web sites, then challenging stores to pay up on their lowest price guarantees.

You can read more here
http://www.sixwise.com/index.asp?Pag...=Custom&ID=118
http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/a...gb_bestbuy.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...28returns.html
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...de/P103694.asp

Besides denying returns, companies have also subjected "devil customers" to longer holds on the phone and fewer perks (like frequent flier miles)


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

How unethical!!! (We make a lot of money on eBay buying undervalued items and reselling them.)


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Buying a product at a discount, such as from the store's selection of "loss leaders," (low-priced products stores lose money on that are designed to attract customers) then reselling it on eBay for a premium price.
That is REALLY disturbing. How are they tracking this!?!? Or are they just making assumptions?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

From the 1st Article:

Quote:

Buying a product, taking advantage of the product rebate, then returning the product for a refund.
If this is not illegal, it should be.

Quote:

Buying clothing or another item, wearing it (or using it) once, then returning it (the classic example is the evening gown that's worn with tags on for a night, then returned).
Once again, immoral at the very least.

Quote:

Buying an item and returning it with the intent of buying it at the reduced "open-box" price
Immoral

Quote:

Buying clothing or another item with the intent of returning it later and re-buying it at a markdown price.
Immoral



> Buying a product at a discount, such as from the store's selection of "loss leaders," (low-priced products stores lose money on that are designed to attract customers) then reselling it on eBay for a premium price.
> 
> 
> > If they don't want people to do this, have a limit per family/person and stick to it. Otherwise, isn't that what businesses *do*--- buy something for less and try to sell it for more?
> ...


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

From the 2nd article:

Quote:

To lure the high-spenders, it is stocking more merchandise and providing more appealing service. To deter the undesirables, it is cutting back on promotions and sales tactics that tend to draw them, and trimming them from marketing mailing lists.
*That* is a different matter altogether. If a store wants to stop selling certain items (they feel a certain "class" of people want) and increase other items (they feel are more profittable, I don't really understand the issue.

Once again, if they don't want people buying *all* of their damaged merchandise at once (presumably) for ebay--- deal with it. Sell it on ebay themselves. I think most people assume that the store WANTS to sell the items they are currently selling, not that one party (the buyer) is taking advantage of the other (the store) when that occurs.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

From the 3rd article:

Quote:

Orkin said she had her receipt, the tags were on the item, the item was undamaged and she was within the 60-day time period set for such transactions.

But after scanning her driver's license, the clerk at the Express clothing store told Orkin that her request to return was denied.

Quote:

"My issue is that there was nothing in the store to say this was their policy. You were simply denied," she said. "What's the number you can't return after? Is it three items? Is it four? Can you have 1,000 purchases and still be denied on the same number of returns as someone with five purchases?"
Now, *that* seems like it should be illegal to me. If a store has one return policy they should have to stick with it UNLESS they have proof of wrongdoing and are willing to involve the police. I, personally, would never shop at that store again and would attempt to get others to boycott as well (with letters to the editor & such).


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

The 4th article brings up a different issue to me.

One obvious issue in all of this is how much privacy to people have the right to in a consumer culture? For example, you can purchase an item with cash at Target , but you can't *return* it without giving them photo ID (even with the receipt). That does not seem "fair" to me, but it many ways it seems too late for people to do anything about this on an individual level--- is there anyplace left to go that doesn't have that policy?

The other concept, meanwhile, of providing bigger "perks" to customers who make you more money.







It seems like it is just being computerized now, but I think many stores have *always* had that policy (when they were able to track it). For example, large companies have customer service sections. If you are a particularily valuable customer, you may have your own customer representative just waiting til you need help. "regular" people just have to get in line. I don't see how you can legally/ethically expect companies to go against their best interests with issues like this.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

And yes, annettemarie, I am taking over your thread


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I am glad this is provoking so much thought!

I agree that some of the customer tactics are what I would consider to be uthethical.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

I regularly buy 4 or more items in different sizes and colors when they are on sale and then let dd pick the one she likes. I don't shop with dd so if they won't let me return something that meets the return policy then I will stop shopping there and take my money elsewhere.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

annettemarie--where do you find all this info? your newspaper? a magazine? internet surfing?

just seems like your really current on world events and if you have a cheat sheet i want it.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I know why I always pay cash.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
annettemarie--where do you find all this info? your newspaper? a magazine? internet surfing?

just seems like your really current on world events and if you have a cheat sheet i want it.









Mostly from different email action alerts I have signed up for by clicking on links provided by mamas here on MDC!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I know why I always pay cash.
Are you going to *tell* us or are we just to assume...?


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Huh. Scary.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

ya'll don't want to know what women will return to Victoria's Secret. You really really don't.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
ya'll don't want to know what women will return to Victoria's Secret. You really really don't.


ewwwwww.......









I'm laughing and grossing out at the same time......


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

oooooo, a lab sighting!!!!!


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## Margaret1022 (Feb 14, 2005)

Orwell's Big Brother...

Well, how many is "too many"?

* What about people who get wedding/baby shower gifts who don't need or want them? That could probably put every bride-to-be over the "limit."

* What about the current problem with store employees/cleaning crew members stealing items, selling them on online auctions and the unsuspecting high bidder tries to exchange it NWT only to learn then it is a hot item? Does that "attempt" count against the unsuspecting product recipient?

* What about office managers for non-profit organizations that regularly receive new donated items they can not use? Do they forfeit the right to exchange them (or resell them) for something the organization can use or risk making the "list"?

By the time this is fully implemented, the scammers will have a new method of attack. Okay, jumping off soapbox.

Margaret


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
oooooo, a lab sighting!!!!!


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

I am kind of shocked that they would take anything back at Victoria's Secret. Usually you can't return swimsuits and underwear unless it still has the protective lining on it and they haven't been worn, only tried on.

Okay mama g, how do you know about Victoria's Secret returns? Did you work there or are you just a frequent custormer? A model perhaps?


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

I think unopened things with the tags still on and a receipt should be able to be returned no matter what. With other things, though, it gets sketchy. I worked in the customer service office of a grocery store for 3 years in college and saw people try to return:

- formula they had gotten with WIC vouchers, trying to get cash
-food they had already eaten (ie bringing back just the receipt, or just the stems of the grapes)
- one family would try to return *everything* they had in their house - including canned goods and nonperishables - before they went on vacation every year because they wanted "fresh" stuff when they got back

So,yes, there are definitely people who abuse the system. However, I think some of the crackdowns are ridiculous. One of my friends wanted to return some baby stuff to Target (unopened, with a gift receipt) and they wanted her to only be able to swap it for *other baby stuff*, so no returning the ugly expensive, too small outfit and getting a dvd or something instead. Ridiculous.


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

Haven't read the linked articles yet (I was too mad!) but I've heard talk on the bus that our local Target is doing this. My fellow bus riders also talked about being charged a "restocking fee" to return there (not getting the full refund). I think this is a despicable way to treat customers. Now off to read the articles...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't think the tracking happens only when you pay. When I returned some Christmas gifts, they wanted my name, my addy, my phone number, my drivers lisence number. That's a lot of personal information to give to a stranger.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
Okay mama g, how do you know about Victoria's Secret returns? Did you work there or are you just a frequent custormer? A model perhaps?









sigh. you got me. I'm a Victoria Secret's Angel (what they call their models). do you know we get our own special v.s. credit cards?


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## jlazx2 (Feb 5, 2003)

Every year, my mom gets me the wrong style underwear from VS and the same perfume gift set that I already have and only use occassionally. I take the gift receipt back and get what I wanted- but I dont try on the underwear so I dont feel bad.

I return food that is expired when i purchased or spoiled.


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I don't think the tracking happens only when you pay. When I returned some Christmas gifts, they wanted my name, my addy, my phone number, my drivers lisence number. That's a lot of personal information to give to a stranger.

I think I'm going to use an alias, and say I don't have a drivers license from now on.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I always say I don;t have my license with me, but I know the number, and then give them a fake number. I never give my phone number.

I know it's not nice to lie, but it's also not nice to force people to give out personal info.


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## jlazx2 (Feb 5, 2003)

Does anyone know if this is why they have the bar codes on your receipts now? To track your purchase? So to avoid it you would have to pay cash? Thanks


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I think this new policy is truly disturbing.

I woudn't mind if it were to track questionable returns. Opened, no tags, etc.

But regular returns...that just pisses me off! It is not unusual for me to buy a couple items, try them on in the privacy of my own home (private, kids are entertained, and I can see what the pieces go with out of my clothes), and then return the ones that doen't fit or look right with what I already have.

So now I will be flagged as a scammer?!? That makes me want to punch someone!!! I will definantly start avoiding stores with such a policy. It is just not good business. PERIOD!!!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whateverdidiwants*
I think unopened things with the tags still on and a receipt should be able to be returned no matter what. With other things, though, it gets sketchy. I worked in the customer service office of a grocery store for 3 years in college and saw people try to return:

This wont work. Were I work we have customers that try to do this. They have returned curtains that are suppose to be sage and are eggshell. Immoral/criminals are quite crafty in their trade. We have people retag rugs. You can buy guns quit easily.

We have customers that exchange tags. They will go buy cheep dollar store stuff and peal (steal) a tag off something else then try to exchange it.

I have been yelled at when I have informed people about our return policy "Store Credit Only" (they can buy anything they want with it). I had one set of customers cuss me out when I informed them that they would not be able to return a $500 comforter set after their guest leave.

We have had customers buy jackets in September and try to exchange them in Feb. The lining is falling out, shedding, et. These are kids jackets also. The truth is their kids out grew them.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
This list makes it a bit harder. If they are really not just targeting people who make a lot of returns (which I tend to do because I do not shop w/DP & the kids usually so I often have the wrong size/color/item) but people who are attempting to commit fraud, that's another issue

Have a friend who got dumped from a dept store credit card for doing exactly this. She doesn't like to take kids shopping and also likes her dh to see the stuff she is getting, so would take the stuff home and return what didn't work out. She actually *paid off her credit card each month* (how many of us do that?) and was a large buyer at said store. She had no idea it was a problem and was always up front with the salespeople about what she was doing. Seems to me in this case the store is cutting off their nose to spite their face since she won't be shopping there anymore!


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## gothmommy (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

We have had customers buy jackets in September and try to exchange them in Feb. The lining is falling out, shedding, et. These are kids jackets also. The truth is their kids out grew them.

Oh gosh...I used to work at *gag*choke*sputter* WalMart when I was in college (I think I lasted all of 3 months there). In their infinite wisdom, they thought I was good with people and put me in the customer service area (I would have rather had a hot stick poked at me than do that). It was insane what people would try to bring back. But the one that takes the cake is this rude, smelly, guy who would come through the customer service line EVERY time I worked it (meaning he was there at least twice a week) trying to return something. He brought a pair of sandals that you could tell had been worn all to Hades and back...they were dirty and caked with smelly mud, the sole was worn completely through in some places and the footbed had a very prominent dirty, stinky foot print (like you get from a TON of wear) on it. He swore up and down he bought them "last weekend" and they just fell apart. I got seriously reprimanded by my boss for laughing at him and telling him that I wasn't born yesterday. I actually denied his return but then he threw a fit and the manager came over and informed me that WalMart has a "lifetime shoe return policy". Argh...IDIOTS!! Oh and needless to say smelly rude guy NEVER had a receipt to return his crap.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gothmommy*
I actually denied his return but then he threw a fit and the manager came over and informed me that WalMart has a "lifetime shoe return policy". Argh...IDIOTS!! Oh and needless to say smelly rude guy NEVER had a receipt to return his crap.

Truth be told, the little bit that WalMart is paying for Chinese child labor, it is no sweat off their back if they take it back. Better PR and no loss to them!

I find it really interesting that Lands' End says that they have very little abuse of their absolute guarantee.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

in regard to the drivers license issue because they may be violating something asking for it with your return

I have a state id for times when a photo id is truly needed ( and because I have a fraud alert out due to id theft)

My aunt works for a govt entity and has told us that in our state ONLY law enforcement and gov't personnel are allowed to ask for your DL

So that clerk in the grocery store who needs to see your id can ask for a photo id here BUT not demand or require your dl

When we first got our original cell phones I told the clerk he could NOT have nor could he xerox my dl that he would need to find something else that would meet his policy requirements
As he was arguing with me a Texas Ranger -the real deal not a ball player came in heard what was being said and told him
"she's right sonnyboy. *I* can ask her for her DL you cannot and you should not be copying anyones DL "


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I worked in retail a very long time before I got married. I know there are people who habitually buy something, use it, then return it for a full refund. We had one particular woman who would buy the most expensive jewelry just to wear to her husband's business dinner parties. We all knew she'd be back in a few days for a refund. This was legal, but highly unethical of her. BUT, stores do have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, and that's how it should be. no, we never refused to sell that woman the fancy diamonds and gold, but those of us in sales begged our manager to do so, because it was taking potential sales and commission out of our pockets while we spent hours helping her pick out the perfect jewelry, knowing the items would be returned.







:

Some people are habitual buyers, then return the items. Maybe they are addicted to shopping, I dunno. But they are wasting the store's time, and I have no problem keeping track of them and store owners refusing to sell to them. Lots more people are shoplifters, then return the items for a refund. These people should definitely be in some computer database (preferably the police's). To file charges of fraud, you need positive proof of that person's id, I am sure that's why they ask for it. They need proof that person is the one who did what they are claiming. A driver's license number is probably the easiest way of doing so.

The only issue I have with what is in the OP, is the bit about reselling items on ebay... Uh, if I purchase something, it is mine to do what I want with it, including selling it to someone else. I don't think it's any of their business.


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