# Being told to spank



## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

This is makng me nuts. I am sick of some people advising me to spank ds. He is 25 months and very sweet over all. He even says please, bless you and thank you a lot! Sometimes he gets whiney and has meltdowns (don't we all?) especially when he get overly tired.

I was at my mom's for dinner and ds was having a 5 o'clock meltdown (no nap, and had been playing having fun, and not eaten much most of the day). I have a huge loud family, so when ds threw himself on the ground I just let him get it all out. That's what my mom did with us. She says it's normal 2 yo behavior to get frustrated. Then my grandpa start in on his "You should go swat him in the thigh" and "Your cousins are not spanked either and look how bad they are". When I told him that I have read about other ways to raise children he said, "those books are written by childless women who could not get another job".

The other people are ILs and they have quit when I told them I felt like the "rod" is a loving guide not a beating stick.

*What do I say when I get cornered by some pro-spanking person? I get so flustered/upset that I can't think!







*
Jennifer


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Just tell him you got your advice from Dr. Sears, who raised 8 kids!


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

I'd say, "when you're having a rough time, can I hit you too?"


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Hmmm...I didn't realize that spanking made children not tired


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

There are countless ways to respond, depending on the angle you want to use. If they are telling you that hitting is effective discipline, you could tell them that, while that used to be a prevailing viewpoint among experts, that has changed. Now, there is virtual consensus that hitting children is NOT effective discipline and that, it in facts harms them. I don't know how educational you wish to be, but you could cite statistics and studies up the wazoo.

If you dont want to go that route, you could simply say (if true for you): it violates my moral values to strike another human being. DS is, of course, a human being!

Or that many countries have had tremendous success with banning hitting of children altogether and that speaks volumes to you.

Or thanks for your opinion but that you prefer gentle/non-violent discipline and it's not up for debate.

Or that you'd rather address the root cause of his tantrum (tired, hungry, overwhelmed by emotion, etc.) rather than respond with violence -- like another poster said: "Will hitting him make him less tired?"

Oh boy, I could go on and on and on. I guess you have to find your comfort zone and identify your core reasons for not hitting. I tend to go with just telling people that, in our home we teach that people are NOT for hitting. And my children are without doubt people! (and tie in Snooter's snappy reply here too!!)

One more: when people say kids have to be hit to become law-abiding citizens, I like to point out that no one has ever laid a violent hand on my body (thank goodness!) and I am not only law-abiding and successful, but I am a criminal prosecutor! There is no proof that children learn best through physical pain.

ETA: Oh geez, I just can't shut up around this topic. But anyway, I also sometimes tell people that, in my line of work, I see the devastating results of "spankings" gone awry far too often -- mostly in the deaths of toddlers and most often around sleeping and potty-learning. In light of that, and in honor of all of those victims, I just cannot bring myself to incorporate violence into the treatment of my children or to condone it. There are far better ways to treat human beings.


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## Mrs_Hos (May 3, 2004)

You could be really mean and vengeful and say, "You're right...but remember that when you are older and can't fend for yourself, I'll be hitting you to get you to stop complaining about your mashed peas!"


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

***


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snooter* 
I'd say, "when you're having a rough time, can I hit you too?"

HAHAHA best response ever.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would just kind of look down my nose as if he said something oh-so-VERY-distasteful and say- "WE don't do THAT"

-Angela


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I would just kind of look down my nose as if he said something oh-so-VERY-distasteful and say- "WE don't do THAT"

-Angela

i love it!


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snooter* 
I'd say, "when you're having a rough time, can I hit you too?"











Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Hmmm...I didn't realize that spanking made children not tired









Me either!









I know that we're going to encounter this at some point. I feel like there's no point sometimes.. But I refuse to lay down and let someone else tell me that I'm not doing something right when I actually take the time to read about it and go with my instincts, instead of taking the easy way out and doing whatever my family thinks that I should do.

I'll have a ready-made response one day. Until then, I'll give them all the same crappy cop-out that I get when Circ, BF, CIO, or anything else comes up....

"Well, this works for our family."







:


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## Miajean (May 16, 2005)

Ahhhaaa Haa.

Thats what you say.
Ask how many times did the spanking work? did it acheive immediate quiet, did the child cry? what part of the bible referances spanking? I don't remember the spanking in proverbs or psalms..but I'm slow. While I'm thinking of it, does the fear work every tiome or do you need to hit harder as the child gets enured to it? when you hit harder are there places you reccomend? is it like torture, do you wait until they don't expect it? will just raiseing your hand work or do you need to scream also? will the child remember it later ?

Get grisley and keep asking until the person feels shamed enough to admit thier version did not/is not the "best way" or even a viable manner to raise a kid. One lady I know belts and she said to me it's the only way that works, I said funny, I've never had to, and neither did my family...seemed too animalistic or barbaric, & if I don't need to do it to my pets then kids are never going to feel my wrath. She didn't bring the subject up again and she also didn't call me for weeks. Sad but true she has never been stupid enough to rasie her hand or vioce to her child in my house or presence since her badly timed admission.

Make the situation uncomfy for the ill mannered old farts. I mean UNCOMFY. ask how many kids in jail had gentle childhoods? how many drug addicted kids were gently raised with good techniques? just keep a stream of batter at the heads of those who think a quick fix is the answer.


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## Miajean (May 16, 2005)

P.s. Meant the post as sarcastic.


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## damselfly41 (Sep 21, 2006)

My mother recently told me that I ought to spank my dd when she sits on/hits/claws/generally bugs my ds!!







: I told her, "So, I should hurt my child because she hurt her brother? No thanks. I'm trying to undo a legacy here!" My parents spanked me and my sister, my dh's parents spanked him and his sister......I get sick to my stomach when I think about hitting my child, no matter what she's doing.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miajean* 
Ahhhaaa Haa.

Thats what you say.
Ask how many times did the spanking work? did it acheive immediate quiet, did the child cry? what part of the bible referances spanking? I don't remember the spanking in proverbs or psalms..but I'm slow. While I'm thinking of it, does the fear work every tiome or do you need to hit harder as the child gets enured to it? when you hit harder are there places you reccomend? is it like torture, do you wait until they don't expect it? will just raiseing your hand work or do you need to scream also? will the child remember it later ?

Get grisley and keep asking until the person feels shamed enough to admit thier version did not/is not the "best way" or even a viable manner to raise a kid. One lady I know belts and she said to me it's the only way that works, I said funny, I've never had to, and neither did my family...seemed too animalistic or barbaric, & if I don't need to do it to my pets then kids are never going to feel my wrath. She didn't bring the subject up again and she also didn't call me for weeks. Sad but true she has never been stupid enough to rasie her hand or vioce to her child in my house or presence since her badly timed admission.

Make the situation uncomfy for the ill mannered old farts. I mean UNCOMFY. ask how many kids in jail had gentle childhoods? how many drug addicted kids were gently raised with good techniques? just keep a stream of batter at the heads of those who think a quick fix is the answer.

I love it!!! I'll have to try this.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *damselfly41* 
My mother recently told me that I ought to spank my dd when she sits on/hits/claws/generally bugs my ds!!







: I told her, "So, I should hurt my child because she hurt her brother? No thanks. I'm trying to undo a legacy here!" My parents spanked me and my sister, my dh's parents spanked him and his sister......I get sick to my stomach when I think about hitting my child, no matter what she's doing.

I understand and agree.


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## claras_mom (Apr 25, 2006)

But it's your grandpa you were talking to--and that's the hardest.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newcastlemama*
I was at my mom's for dinner and ds was having a 5 o'clock meltdown (no nap, and had been playing having fun, and not eaten much most of the day). I have a huge loud family, so when ds threw himself on the ground I just let him get it all out. That's what my mom did with us. She says it's normal 2 yo behavior to get frustrated. Then my grandpa start in on his "You should go swat him in the thigh" and "Your cousins are not spanked either and look how bad they are". When I told him that I have read about other ways to raise children he said, "those books are written by childless women who could not get another job".

The other people are ILs and they have quit when I told them I felt like the "rod" is a loving guide not a beating stick.

What do I say when I get cornered by some pro-spanking person? I get so flustered/upset that I can't think.

With older relatives, the best is maybe to smile sweetly and let it go. Keep doing what you're doing, because you know it's the right thing....and maybe get your mom to talk to your grandpa about backing off.

With other people--non-relatives, in particular--*you don't owe them any explanation*. A shrug--"well...that's not what we do"--and change the subject. Sure, if you have a day where you're feeling really powerful and articulate and able to debate the issue, that's fine too. But when we debate the issue, we're implying that it's open for debate, which it's not.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
There are countless ways to respond, depending on the angle you want to use. If they are telling you that hitting is effective discipline, you could tell them that, while that used to be a prevailing viewpoint among experts, that has changed. Now, there is virtual consensus that hitting children is NOT effective discipline and that, it in facts harms them. I don't know how educational you wish to be, but you could cite statistics and studies up the wazoo.

If you dont want to go that route, you could simply say (if true for you): it violates my moral values to strike another human being. DS is, of course, a human being!

Or that many countries have had tremendous success with banning hitting of children altogether and that speaks volumes to you.

Or thanks for your opinion but that you prefer gentle/non-violent discipline and it's not up for debate.

Or that you'd rather address the root cause of his tantrum (tired, hungry, overwhelmed by emotion, etc.) rather than respond with violence -- like another poster said: "Will hitting him make him less tired?"

Oh boy, I could go on and on and on. I guess you have to find your comfort zone and identify your core reasons for not hitting. I tend to go with just telling people that, in our home we teach that people are NOT for hitting. And my children are without doubt people! (and tie in Snooter's snappy reply here too!!)

One more: when people say kids have to be hit to become law-abiding citizens, I like to point out that no one has ever laid a violent hand on my body (thank goodness!) and I am not only law-abiding and successful, but I am a criminal prosecutor! There is no proof that children learn best through physical pain.

ETA: Oh geez, I just can't shut up around this topic. But anyway, I also sometimes tell people that, in my line of work, I see the devastating results of "spankings" gone awry far too often -- mostly in the deaths of toddlers and most often around sleeping and potty-learning. In light of that, and in honor of all of those victims, I just cannot bring myself to incorporate violence into the treatment of my children or to condone it. There are far better ways to treat human beings.









And *THIS* is why I am going to be president of her fan club!

Sometimes I want to print out her posts & just hand them to people cuz I am NOT that articulate! I tend to be a "Shut up & MYOB, Beotch" type person!


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## damyen's mommy (May 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







And *THIS* is why I am going to be president of her fan club!

Sometimes I want to print out her posts & just hand them to people cuz I am NOT that articulate! I tend to be a "Shut up & MYOB, Beotch" type person!

















: Can I be a vice-president







. I tend to just get angered an not really no what to say. I wish I could spout of stats and such, but I just say we don't hit people in our home, I usualy include furry people too ( and that is why I am the hippy freak of my little one horse town







)


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *damyen's mommy* 







: Can I be a vice-president







. I tend to just get angered an not really no what to say. I wish I could spout of stats and such, but I just say we don't hit people in our home, I usualy include furry people too ( and that is why I am the hippy freak of my little one horse town







)

DO y'all have a secretary? How about a treasurer?

I totally agree. I'm glad that I have MDC to read about these situations and think about them before they happen. I've had things happen that I read about here online, and I was prepared with a good, informed response.

I'm going to stick that list in my brain wallet.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Wow! Thanks for all the responses. Dh and I were talking last night about this issue. I thought of some other points I could bring up.

1. Spanking will teach him to hit others when they don't comply with him
2. It is not really teaching him how to behave in an adult world. He can't spank his empolyees/boss if they make him mad!

Dh was spanked a lot when he was younger. He said it just made him hate his parents and rebel. He feels like natural consequences or the taking away of a priveledge worked best when he was older. Not being able to go see his friends and such.

I really do need to read more on this topic. I feel very confident about homebirth and some of our other choices because I was really informed. Right now I don't spank for spiritual and instictual reasons. I just could not picture Jesus hitting kids.

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Morloth (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs_Hos* 
You could be really mean and vengeful and say, "You're right...but remember that when you are older and can't fend for yourself, I'll be hitting you to get you to stop complaining about your mashed peas!"









Hee hee, I said something very similar to my FIL recently. We were on a train and DS _really_ needed a nappy change, so I said we were getting out at the next stop and we could meet them at home if they wanted to continue (they being FIL & MIL), it was a good 45mins (at least) before we would be home. FIL said "why can't he just wait, it won't hurt him to sit in it for an hour or so". To which I replied "I will remember that for the nursing home". Shut him right up, but made pretty much everyone else on the crowded train (who I am sure REALLY wanted us to get off and change him!) snicker.

And yeah smacking a kid is definately the way to make them stop crying, well duh.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I really don't think there's much point in trying to defend or explain your position. Esp to an older person, and esp when your child is mid-meltdown. It's just pointless. There are no perfect or right words that will magically make them get it.

I have perfected the "oh really? Um hmmm...do you think so?" distracted/ignoring technique. Most of the time these people are spoiling for a fight and I refuse to play.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I've gotten the same pressure from my relatives, and discussion doesn't really accomplish anything -- maybe because they've all spanked their kids so if they really listened they might have to admit they were wrong. To me there's nothing wrong with admitting I've been wrong about something -- it's a great springboard into growth and healing ... but many of my relatives seem unwilling to take this invigorating plunge. So I just try to let their criticism go in one ear and out the other.

I recall myself throwning lots of tantrums as a child -- and my brother and I had some knock-down, drag-out fights (including the drama of throwing canned goods at each other!); I also recall my siblings' children throwing some huge fits when they were little like my kids (mine are six and one-and-a-half), but their kids are older now and no one seems to remember any of that ... it's like my kids invented the tantrum.

When people disagree with our parenting style, they tend to look for evidence in our kids' behavior to support their own theories.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
... it's like my kids invented the tantrum.

*When people disagree with our parenting style, they tend to look for evidence in our kids' behavior to support their own theories.*

Yep. The thing is, these people don't live in your home, and they don't know what happens 24/7.

My mom used to tell me that I was going to "spoil" DS.. Now she's been staying with us for a few weeks (







:







:







: ) and finally sees that he's a bright, loving, wonderful child who is very attached to his family.


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## uberwench (Jul 25, 2003)

hmmm...i'm not sure what i'd do if it were a close relative - i guess i've been lucky in that regard. or possibly my DH has warned his family in advance that we are not at home to discussions of spanking.









The one time something similar DID occur (my SIL was telling me how to "get him to nap" - "if he's crying, just go out into your garden so you can't hear him"







: ) my response was just "whaaaa? you're kidding, right?" laughed, and changed the subject.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I tell people I'm *ANTI-punishment* With no hesitation, and with pride. (I LOVE Alegna's idea though!) It seems to make a big impact. lol (The truth would be anti-behaviorism, but I have a feeling that would go way over many heads)

Doesn't the verse "spare the rod..." have a lot more meaning to it? As in, isn't that phrase attributed to Solomon? Here's an article on how one of his sons turned out http://www.nospank.net/maurer10.htm
Another article with a response to the "spare the rod..." quote. http://www.nospank.net/solomon.htm


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## muppet729 (Feb 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newcastlemama* 
Right now I don't spank for spiritual and instictual reasons. I just could not picture Jesus hitting kids.

Thanks,
Jennifer

Yeah, and when He was lost in the temple, I don't think that's what Mary and Joseph did either...


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

For an easy answer. Most mainstream people are happy enough to know that Dr. Phil and the supper nanny's advise against hitting. Because you know Dr. Phil knows everything.







So they'll usually leave you alone if you mention that. However for way better educational or sassy answers, you've already gotten some great ones.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

My IL's know not to say anything like that to me, but mostly that's cause I think they're a little scared of me...







: But if they did say that, I'd probably say "You know, I used to believe that hitting a defenseless human being was an effective way of teaching them. But I know better now, and when you know better, you do better." I usually DONT defend my parenting choices. I think alot of times, since we (meaning AP, GD folk) are in the minority, we feel the need to constantly defend our chices, and that gives our power away. Just like when you KNOW you are doing something right, you dont feel the need to tell people about why you are doing it, but when you are doing something you feel is not right, you feel the need to explain or give excuses or what have you. JMHO...


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Lots of great ideas on this thread! Just wanted to add for Christian parents out there I found this previous discussion really helpful:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=521816

It also has links to some really good looking Christian GD sites.

The whole "rod" thing is interesting actually to me. I recently read a discussion (think it was here at MDC?) about Proverbs 13:24 -- the infamous spare the rod spoil the child verse. It pointed out that throughout Proverbs 13 the "child" being spoken of is really a young man. It is only this one particular part where it's generally considered to be a small child being spoken of.

The rod is also mentioned in Psalm 23 as "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me". Um...kind of hard to picture someone beating a child with a rod a comforting you know? Plus, Jesus is referred to as the Good Shepard. Shepards do NOT beat their flocks with the rod. They are used as a weapon against predators attacking the sheep & as a way to gently prod the flock along, encourage stragglers, and such.

When I get the whole "spare the rod" speech from someone I don't hesitate to point out that, as previous posters have said, it's ridiculous to picture Jesus beating a child.

Also, as Christians, although we study and follow the Old Testament or Old Covenant, *we* are bound to follow the New Covenant or Jesus or the Law of Love or whatever you want to all it. Most of the verses I've come across advocating (or being taken to advocate) corporal punishment in the Bible have been in the Old Testament.

Anyway, the links in the above discussion can probably do a much better job of explaining all this than I can.

Honestly, this is just my own personal research & something I find interesting as a Christian. ITA with the pp that say simply NOT engaging in the discussion is usually the best course to follow.


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## NaturalMamma (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janerose* 
When I get the whole "spare the rod" speech from someone I don't hesitate to point out that, as previous posters have said, it's ridiculous to picture Jesus beating a child.

I like to think that God is beating off satan (the wolf) to protect me.









It's hard being an attchment parenting Christian, isn't it?







:

BTW, here is a little piece I've seen floating around in some discipline circles:
"When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call it assult.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline."








--Haim Ginott


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## KA29 (Jan 8, 2006)

Honestly, my response is always:

"I don't hit people."

That usually gets me an odd look and the comment about spanking repeated.

And I just keep saying it. Over. And. Over.

"I don't hit people."

I've gotten to the point where I refuse to argue my stand. I'm just going to keep repeating it. And I won't call spanking anything other than hitting. People like to think it's different, but it's not.







:


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

those books are written by childless women who could not get another job".
I'm big on dragging people the wrong way ...so in this circumstance I might say, "Childless women?" try again all the books are writen by men. the women are too busy" To which hopefullly all the women will chuckle and the subject will move on to..."Yeah we're too busy"


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i woudl just ask them if they believe they shoudl be hit when acting inappropriately (and by that, i include telling mamas to hit their babies).








s


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

You know, the phrase "spare the rod spoil the child" DOES NOT appear on the Bible? I LOVE to shock people with that fact. Crystal Lutton has a lot of good info on the subject on her site: http://www.aolff.org/sparetherod.html


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KA29* 
Honestly, my response is always:

"I don't hit people."

That usually gets me an odd look and the comment about spanking repeated.

And I just keep saying it. Over. And. Over.

"I don't hit people."

I've gotten to the point where I refuse to argue my stand. I'm just going to keep repeating it. And I won't call spanking anything other than hitting. People like to think it's different, but it's not.







:


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I used to say when DS was younger, "You know, people are always telling me I need to spank him, but then those same people tell me how well-behaved and pleasant he is."


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

For certain kinds of Christian parents - the phrase "grace based discipline" may be helpful. You can google it. We are Christian but there isn't a hitting tradition in my church so it's not an issue.


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## PMolly (Dec 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie* 
I'm going to stick that list in my brain wallet.









Ooo...Where can I get one of these brain wallets?









I love lurking here. I'll be ready when I have to face the ILs and parents who will say, "but we spanked, and you (or DH) turned out okay"

Just imagine how much "better" we could be.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I'm another one that uses the word "hitting" to make a point about spanking.

If somebody truly wants to know my stance on spanking, I usually say something like "I got hit a lot when I was a kid, and I always remember swearing to myself, even at a very young age, that I would never ever hit my own kids. I can still clearly recall the shame and fear I felt when I was hit by my parents, and I would never want my own child to experience what I went through."

That usually shuts them up, it's pretty tough to argue with.


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## familylove (Mar 14, 2006)

I'm weighing in really late on this subject and you've gotten great suggestions. I wanted to agree with NiteNicole and Mammal Mama on the subject of disagreeing with grandparents. They are simply of a generation where spanking was accepted practice, no "ifs, ands or buts". When my grandparents are brave enough to mention spanking, I just laugh like "Oh my, that's quite an idea." and move on. I don't want to get into a full on argueing match with them b/c I respect them in general.

As for other folks closer to our age, I love to say, "Well, DH and I were both spanked as children and didn't feel it was an effective discipline tool." Its amazing how fast that stops the conversation.

Finally, my brother (whose 5 yrs younger than me with one child of 9 mos.) loves to point out my disciplining foibles and say, "You know, you really should be spanking him." I just give him a withering look and say, "You know that's not the way we are doing things."

You'll find something you're comfortable saying. You believe in your methods...just try to convey that confidence in your knowledge to others.


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## sandy'smama (Oct 16, 2005)

Another late posting here! I love some of the suggestions and I must say that all those hours spent on MDC must have rubbed off on me as I managed to come up with quite a good reply to a little old lady at the swimming pool recently.
DS was really excited and wanted to run straight to the pool area, it was our first time at that particular one so I was not happy to let him go soooo a mega tantrum followed... This woman started to suggest to get the super nanny onto him as he is a spoiled brat (no suggestion of spanking as it is illegal here to hit a child







) quick as a flash and so surprised with myself I said: "He is acting his age and it is high time you started to act yours. If you cannot help me do not make things more difficult please", she was quite amabarassed and speacheless. I guess she thought I was a spoiled brat too







.
It is more difficult with family and friends though but just stick to your principles!

Ania


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snooter* 
I'd say, "when you're having a rough time, can I hit you too?"

exactly my thoughts!


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sandy'smama* 
"He is acting his age and it is high time you started to act yours. If you cannot help me do not make things more difficult please"











There are so many situations this response can apply to IRL. I'm definitly going to remember this one. Thanks!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Gosh, I think my reponses depend entirely on who I am talking with. If its an older person who is done raising kids, then I don't see any reason to press the point and possibly make them feel guilty and sad (or more likely, defensive) about the way they did things. I just respond that I'd really rather not resort to spanking, and move on.

I'm at a place in my life where the former nay-sayers have been proved wrong -- my grandparents spend time with my children and can see for themselves that they are turning out beautifully. I haven't really had to say much of anything. Just be patient and bide your time. Stick to your guns. If your actions toward your child are good, kind and fair -- then they will justify themselves in the end.


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## traceface (Feb 17, 2003)

Quote:

you could simply say (if true for you): it violates my moral values to strike another human being.
I love this - I think it gets to the heart of the matter for me.


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