# Does saying something ever do any good? aka even my 6 year old recognized this as dangerous!



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

About a week ago, a neighbor of ours drove by our house to pick up her son on their way to run some errands. I went out to talk to her because I'd volunteered to babysit her 6 y.o. daughter and needed to know if she still needed me to do it.

When I reached the car, I saw that she had the 6 year old sitting in a backless booster in the front seat. This car is new enough to have air bags, but I don't think they can be turned off. I was stunned and didn't say anything. Her daughter is about 48" tall, and probably only weighs 40 lbs. (she's a really slender kid.)

The next day, dd said to me: "K's mom is crazy." "Oh?" I said, "why?" "Because she let K ride in the front seat!"

I have to agree, but I'm wondering if I'm just too much of a busybody for anyone to pay attention. The last time I said something to a neighbor (her 8 year old dd was barely 48" and riding without any booster), I was completely ignored. (Her daughter was ticked at me because I'd made her sit in a booster when I transported her. My ds was 8, 4'6" and still using a booster.)

Would you say anything? If my six year old can recognize how dangerous this is, why can't her mom?


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

I would probably say something like: "Cool! How did you turn the air bags off?'

Then smile pleasantly. But I am a little passive-aggressive at times.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

good for you for making the other child use a booster in your car! i do that too. an acquaintence with a just-about-to-turn-six yo ds rode with me and i asked her if she was going to use her booster or did she want to use the spare i carry in the trunk? her little one piped up that he was a big boy now and didnt need a car seat and i said straight out that he was no big enough to be safe and i wasnt willing to accept the risk to his life. then i put him in a booster and told his mom exactly how unsafe it was and she just laughed and said whatever.

no one ever listens to me either. i am the last booster hold-out in my group. the only one who listened to me is keeping her 18 mo in an outgrown bucket bc i told her he should RF as long as possible. grrr... (i have told her he should go to a convertible asap, but it fell on dead ears)

oh, my sis just put her dd back in a LBB after about 6 mos without one bc it took us a while to find one that fit her and the new car

so, yes, i would say something but i wouldnt get my hopes up for a big change.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

My car's seat bags don't work if there is not enough weight in the seat. I have a light that tells me if the air bag is turned on or not.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/saf...3/article.html

Advanced Airbags
As airbag technology progressed, automakers began to develop methods to reduce the deployment power of airbags based on the size of the occupant. By the early 2000s, some automakers introduced these new airbags, calling them "advanced," "smart," "dual-stage" or "multi-stage."

These airbags were created primarily to reduce the risk of airbag-related injury or death to children and small adults by either deploying with less force or not at all, depending on the situation. Sensors, usually located in the seat and seatbelts, sent signals to the vehicle's computer providing information such as the weight and seating position of the occupant and if he or she was wearing a seatbelt. In the event of a collision, the computer then made a split-second decision on whether to deploy the airbag at full force, reduced force or not at all.

Unfortunately, in the earliest versions of advanced airbags, the systems didn't always "sense" the occupant accurately, effectively fooling the computer. Some owners of Hyundai, Jaguar, Jeep, Lexus, Nissan and Toyota vehicles complained to NHTSA, that their vehicle's front-passenger "airbag off" warning light came on whenever a small adult was in the seat, or would intermittently turn off depending on the person's sitting position.

Other owners noted systems were so sensitive that the airbag sensors would deactivate the airbag if a seat cover was installed or a towel tossed over the seat. In addition, hard braking or swerving could throw the front passenger off balance and cause the airbag sensors chose to deactivate the airbag moments before an accident.

Fortunately, there were only a few reports of these issues and, in the years since automakers have continued to improve these advanced systems. Currently, NHTSA does not have a single investigation pending for any airbag-related issue.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Marsupialmom said:


> My car's seat bags don't work if there is not enough weight in the seat. I have a light that tells me if the air bag is turned on or not.
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/saf...3/article.html
> 
> Yeah, mine does too, but I wouldn't trust a sensor with my kid's life. Especially when it's just as easy to have him sit in the back seat.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Why was the child in the front seat? Were all backseat positions occupied?


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

My kids recognized that at that age, that all children should be in the back seat (when there is one).

My bil got fined because he put his (about that age) dd in the front. He was transporting a bike in the back seat (didn't have one of those frames mounted on the back for this purpose obviously). It's kind of handy to have a story of someone being fined. I actually thought it was enough of an excuse but the police thought otherwise!

The easiest way is to show children the seat belt going over the throat. "You can sit without a booster if the seat belt doesn't go near your throat. That would hurt even if I break hard to avoid hitting an animal!" Children relate to a trying to avoid killing an animal kind of scene rather than a gloomy death scenario. Of course, they put it on and it goes right over their neck... Get a booster!

My children are spiders. They are tall with long arms and legs and basically no torso. I'd say this when other parents would mention it, joking "They're really small when they sit down!" This gets them laughing and then I can insert something about the seat belt must not go near the neck for safety reasons without sounding judgemental.

I can turn off my air bag and by law, children only have to be 10 here in France to sit in front. My ds is still in the back lol! I do let him come up front if we are transporting another child, unless the child is bigger than he is.

We had a German exchange student and although they were the same age, this kid was huge! I didn't even turn off the airbag. Now I realize that I'm going to have to go back to my manual and double check the minimums for the air bag because my kids are getting old enough to have friends who don't need it turned off.

I had to lol about the pp's comment about turning it off. I used that exact line! Turned out her car was only slightly older than mine, the same model and it did not even have an airbag (and mine obviously did). Good thing I didn't open my trap about her infant seat up front!


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

I am wondering the same thing.....about saying something......
I have a facebook friend who keeps posting pictures of her son in the car.
3 years old, backless booster, belt tucked UNDER his armpit. I want to say something SO bad, but she is kind of a know it all and probably wouldn't react very well. I mean not everyone is a car seat expert but some COMMON SENSE?


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipworth* 
I would probably say something like: "Cool! How did you turn the air bags off?'

Then smile pleasantly. But I am a little passive-aggressive at times.









I would totally do something like that.



mama2soren said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
> ...


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

There is no reason (or excuse, IMO) to have a child under the age of 13 to be up front with an active air bag when the backseat is available.

http://www.aap.org/family/airbag.htm


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

oh man, I saw this JUST today! We were just getting back to our car in the parking lot when someone pulled in next to us. My jaw about hit the ground when I see a little girl, looked about 3 or 4, in the front seat. I stalled a little bit to watch them get out of the car, and saw she had a backless booster. She looked close in size to my 3 yo dd (who is big for her age, but still) I imagine a young 4, tops. I wanted to say something.. but approaching a stranger to criticize their parenting.. ugh.. is there any way to do that that and NOT come off as a nosy busy body know it all who really should mind their own business? The mom was talking to her dd in a different language, so she might not have even known english. I wish I had thought to leave a note on her car! That would be less confrontational.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
There is no reason (or excuse, IMO) to have a child under the age of 13 to be up front with an active air bag when the backseat is available.

http://www.aap.org/family/airbag.htm

Considering my 12 year old daughter is 5'3" and we have a friend's 11 year old son that is 5'7". My son at 12 was as tall as the average man and taller than many. My 12 year old is bigger than my mil and doesn't have osteoporosis. There comes a point when you can not use the argument you are not big enough.

It is always safer to sit in the back seat but when it is just my dh and I no body recommend I go in the back seat because it is safer.

Yes, a 6-7 year old should ride in the back but once your children turn adult size it is hard to say no, especially if you are toting around an adult that is more likely than them to be injured.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i wouldn't say anything, but then i am a bad parent. i let my 12 year old ride in the front and don't have my 8 year old in a booster or my 5 year old rear facing. so maybe i wouldn't be someone anyone would hang out with. lol

and i can't stand passive aggressive parenting tactics. if you are worried then speak up but don't be rude. it is her kid, her choice. sort of like all those other parenting choices we all make... some would say are risky but we see as perfectly normal.

h


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Keeping a child in back seat is always safer when airbag is active. Things are very different when airbag is deactivated by key or switch, the front seat is then an excellent place for a child and is at least as safe as rear seat.

Turning off an airbag with key or switch is perfectly safe, I would personally not trust a sensor as I feel there are more things which could go wrong.


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Keeping a child in back seat is always safer when airbag is active. Things are very different when airbag is deactivated by key or switch, the front seat is then an excellent place for a child and is at least as safe as rear seat.

Turning off an airbag with key or switch is perfectly safe, I would personally not trust a sensor as I feel there are more things which could go wrong.

Can someone explain this to me then? Something doesn't add up. I get that airbags aren't safe for children, but yet can save adult lives in a crash. What part of no airbags + a child in the front makes any safety sense? Can it be said that no airbags are best for adults then too? Why is a child any safer up front without an airbag, than an adult without an airbag?


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotus.blossom* 
Can someone explain this to me then? Something doesn't add up. I get that airbags aren't safe for children, but yet can save adult lives in a crash. What part of no airbags + a child in the front makes any safety sense? Can it be said that no airbags are best for adults then too? Why is a child any safer up front without an airbag, than an adult without an airbag?

This is my question too, but in reverse. Why is it safe for me (5 feet tall and normally about 90 pounds, although I am heavier than that now until I lose the post-partum weight) and not safe for children under 13? Because I have met 9 and 10 year olds who are bigger than me. This is a source of some contention between my husband and me. I'd rather have a car with no airbags (like that's possible), but he insists they're safer for me, even when I'm the driver. I don't believe it.

To answer the above question, size does matter when it comes to airbags because of the speed at which they deploy. They're pretty forceful things, and the smaller you are, the less force your frame is able to take. I think that's the reason anyway, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
The next day, dd said to me: "K's mom is crazy." "Oh?" I said, "why?" "Because she let K ride in the front seat!"

This tells me you might want to watch how you speak about other people in front of your dd.

I personally would not have my 6yo in the front seat or in a backless booster, but it is apparently fine with your neighbor so I think you should mind your own business. I think the no kids in the front seat thing has been publicized well enough that it's safe to assume she's heard about it. She's not asking you to transport her dd in the same fashion, I assume, and you certainly don't have to let her drive your kids anywhere.

I understand where you're coming from. My friend has her 2 1/2 year old in a booster seat. I was shocked when I saw it. But I have respect for her as a human being and a mother and that is her choice to make. If she asked why my 3 1/2yo is still rear-facing (and she has seen me buckle him into his seat) I would definitely tell her, in a non judgmental fashion, but I'm not going to jump into her business and tell her she's wrong because she made a different decision than I would.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think next time I'll probably ask about the airbags, "do your airbags turn off? I'd be worried about M in the front seat." Upon reflection, the car is probably new enough to have sensors. Not everyone's 'newer' car is 12 years old like ours.

(The backless booster thing isn't something I'm going to say anything about. I prefer a high backed booster for my 6 year old, but the belt fit her daughter properly, so it's OK.)

I probably am spitting into the wind, but it'll make me feel better.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
This tells me you might want to watch how you speak about other people in front of your dd.

Defending myself: Actually, she was not quoting me or anyone else. I didn't say a word about it at the time. My dd is quite a thinker and is perfectly capable of making these connections.

For example, dh does not eat vegetables and rarely eats fruit (due to sensory issues). We were having fruit salad one evening for dinner, and dd was setting the table. Dd asked dh if he wanted fruit salad (so she could get a bowl for him if necessary). He said no. She came back into the kitchen and said "Daddy doesn't want fruit salad." She paused and then said "Daddy doesn't eat much fruit. He'll probably die before you."

How'd she get there? She knows that we eat fruits and veggies to keep us healthy. She knows that if you're healthy, you live longer. Thus, she drew the inference that if you don't eat fruits and veggies, you won't live as long. This is never a connection I've made for her. I don't even bother talking to dh about fruits/veggies because we've been together for over 20 years, and I know that it's not something that he can change.

Ditto for the car seat thing. Dd knows that the backseat is the safest place for children. She knows that our kids won't be allowed to sit in the front seat until they are 13 and over 5'2" tall. (Luckily for us, that won't be an issue; for short people, it is a concern.) I didn't say anything to anyone about the carseat. Dd observed, noted, and commented.

While we probably do need to work on her tact, it's more of an issue of a highly verbal child who's able to make inferences than it is of her picking up stuff from us. I know how verbal she is. I know much she hears.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiLStar* 
I wish I had thought to leave a note on her car! That would be less confrontational.

I'm all for child safety, but have the nerve to say it to their face. Leaving notes is passive-aggressive, not less confrontational.

I'm with the second poster. Ask how they managed to get the airbags turned off, because your child also wants to sit in the front seat but you can't since you can't turn those pesky, lethal airbags off.

This is sneaky but it's also diplomatic. Like, you are assuming, or trying to assume, that that parent is knowledgeable and has the child's best interests in mind.

"This tells me you might want to watch how you speak about other people in front of your dd."

We use the word crazy to mean, "not thinking right now" or "doing something irrational right now." As in: "You're wearing socks and sandles in the snow??? Are you ca-ray-zy?" We also use the word "fool": "What are you doing running with that fork? I don't care if it's from the toy kitchen. Don't be a fool." "What a fool I am, I forgot to bring my keys--back up three flights of stairs, kiddos!"

So my child could easily have something like that come out of her mouth. Sorry if you think I'm rude.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Years ago, I drove from NC to OH, then from OH to RI, and my 2yo rode in the front seat the whole way. There were no airbags in the vehicle. Yep, I knew that the backseat was "safer," but I felt that trying to parent a toddler for multiple hours while driving was more safely accomplished without my having to constantly look in the backseat or trying to pass toys/food/drink back there.

Your neighbor might have had her own reasons for her child being up front. Her airbag might automatically turn on and off (like mine currently do) for the passenger seat. If you (general "you") feel the need to give unsolicited advice, be adult enough to be direct about it.

FWIW, neither of my kids were in booster seats at age six. I wonder how many kids would be if it wasn't mandated.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Dd knows that the backseat is the safest place for children. She knows that our kids won't be allowed to sit in the front seat until they are 13 and over 5'2" tall.

I guess you won't be carpooling any time soon, eh? Either that or you own a monstrous vehicle. If I wanted to take my kids and a couple of their friends anywhere, _someone_ had to sit in the front seat.

Two of their present-day friends are girls who are 15 and 17, and neither of them are over 5'2". Heck, I'm only 5'2". Should I sit in a booster while driving?


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipworth* 
I would probably say something like: "Cool! How did you turn the air bags off?'

Then smile pleasantly. But I am a little passive-aggressive at times.


This seems perfect to me. I'm passive-aggressive, too, though.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i am not a huge fan of the passive aggressiveness. like a few others have said, mind your own business. how many parenting choices do you make that others might question and how would you like a note stuck some place telling you how to parent? or someone coming up to you, for no other reason then to tell you how to raise your kid cuz they don't like the way you do it. it is her child, her choice. maybe her air bag is off, maybe it isn't, it really isn't your place to question her. IF she is taking your child someplace you can say "dd needs to be in the back, in the middle, in a rear facing carseat." she can how ever do what she wants with her kid. just as it is totally cool for you to have your child in any spot in the car any way you see fit.
how many of use come on to mothering to complain about family or friends being passive aggressive with us about how we parent, why would you want to sow those seeds?

h


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I guess you won't be carpooling any time soon, eh? Either that or you own a monstrous vehicle. If I wanted to take my kids and a couple of their friends anywhere, _someone_ had to sit in the front seat.

No, we won't, unfortunately until we can afford to buy a minivan (probably a year from now). Right now we have a 1998 Subaru station wagon and the airbags in the front seat do not turn off. I wouldn't put my kids in the front seat and I sure as heck wouldn't endanger someone else's kid by doing that. It's our only car (as the 1991 Mazda's in the shop and doesn't look to be fixable). So, we're doing a lot on foot, on bikes and with public transit for the foreseeable future.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Two of their present-day friends are girls who are 15 and 17, and neither of them are over 5'2". Heck, I'm only 5'2". Should I sit in a booster while driving?









It reminds me of the Weird Al Yankovic song.... Short people... (sorry)

Seriously though, short women are more at risk, especially with older airbags like we've got. While I wouldn't force a 5' 17 year old to sit in the backseat, I might encourage it. And if they were in the front seat of our car (with older airbags that don't decelerate), I'd make them push the seat all the way back so they're further back from the airbag.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annie Mac* 
This is my question too, but in reverse. Why is it safe for me (5 feet tall and normally about 90 pounds, although I am heavier than that now until I lose the post-partum weight) and not safe for children under 13? Because I have met 9 and 10 year olds who are bigger than me. This is a source of some contention between my husband and me. I'd rather have a car with no airbags (like that's possible), but he insists they're safer for me, even when I'm the driver. I don't believe it.

I believe that your bones are stronger. But you're still at risk. The question of whether you're more at risk with or without airbags is one that I can't answer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Your neighbor might have had her own reasons for her child being up front. Her airbag might automatically turn on and off (like mine currently do) for the passenger seat. If you (general "you") feel the need to give unsolicited advice, be adult enough to be direct about it.

I would be -- I don't do passive aggression. I'm not even sure I can. I would be pretty direct. But so far I haven't said anything, and I probably won't at this point in time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
FWIW, neither of my kids were in booster seats at age six. I wonder how many kids would be if it wasn't mandated.

A heck of a lot aren't even though it's mandated!


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## karika (Nov 4, 2005)

It is a law here to have children in the back seat. There was recently a sting op by the police near a school. There were people with the children in the front and they said they did not know it was illegal. I believe you should find out if she can be fined for this in your state and if so, tell her you want to give her a heads up that it is illegal if you see it again. I personally have no problem with children riding up front once they are tall enough for the seat belt to fit properly (not at 6), with or without one of those devices made for smaller people. This would mean automatically that they are at the right height for an airbag. However, I do have a problem with breaking the law about it. If I saw a friend doing it, I would assume (perhaps foolishly) that they were unaware that it was against the law and tell her. Heck me and my best friend used to ride standing up in the front seat eating hershey bars, but that was when half the streets were dirt, there was one grocery store in the town, and hershey bars didn't have GMO ingredients. We may have passed one car on the way to her house... not the case today...


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

http://www.iihs.org/laws/ChildRestraint.aspx

Karika, not all states have laws about front seat and your state has "if practical" so if someone has four 6 year olds practicality means one sits up front (not saying that I would want that but we do swim with someone that has 2 sets of twins).


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## Mommybree (Jul 27, 2007)

Just trying to address some of the issues I saw raised in this thread.

Air bag sensors do not disable an airbag with the reliability needed to rely on them to keep a child or teen safe, even if the airbag sensor says it's off.

Children under 15 are at risk from the airbag: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ags_teens.html
"The study found that children 14 and younger were at high risk for serious injury from air bags when they sat in the front passenger seat during car crashes.

In contrast, air bags had a protective effect for teens aged 15-18. And the study showed that age may be a better indicator of risk from air-bag injury than height or weight.

Newgard and co-author Dr. Roger Lewis, an emergency-medicine researcher at the University of California-Los Angeles, said several body changes that take place during puberty, including muscle mass, bone density and bone-mineral content, may help explain why body size alone isn't a good measurement of risk from the air bags in children."

That's why airbags provide a safety benefit for adults, but don't for children, preteens, and young teens. Height and weight and looking adult-sized aren't enough.

There is supposed evidence that in Sweden, where airbags can be completely disabled by a switch, that rear-facing children are safe in front. That's not particularly relevant in North America, because very few vehicles allow for the airbag to be disabled by a switch (airbag sensors are not the same thing), and it doesn't apply to children in forward-facing seats, children and preteens in boosters, or young teens that fit in a seatbelt anyway. Also, North American research shows the backseat is safer for children, so while the info about Sweden is interesting, I've never seen the actual studies or information showing that it's as safe for rear-facing children to be in front with a disabled airbag (by switch) as it is for them to be in the backseat.


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

Just wanted to chime and and say that it is illegal in my state for a child to ride up front if the backseat is unoccupied.

My understanding of why airbags are unsafe for children has to do with the force with which they deploy combined with the area they cover. An airbag going off full force at an adult chest can break ribs (picture you leaning close to the stearing wheel looking to make a turn). I shutter to think what that would look like going off in a child's face. Short people (under 5') are also at risk for facial injury due to airbags going off, but are at less risk if they are the driver due to the ability of most driver's seats to raise and the stearing wheel (with airbag) to lower.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i wouldn't say anything, but then i am a bad parent. i let my 12 year old ride in the front and don't have my 8 year old in a booster or my 5 year old rear facing. so maybe i wouldn't be someone anyone would hang out with. lol

and i can't stand passive aggressive parenting tactics. if you are worried then speak up but don't be rude. it is her kid, her choice. sort of like all those other parenting choices we all make... some would say are risky but we see as perfectly normal.

h

Eh, we can hang out.









I think there's a line somewhere between really objectionable (for example, toddlers not buckled in at all; grossly improper carseat use--like an infant in a FF convertible in the front seat or something) and just "not what I would choose." I'm not sure where the OP's situation falls. If you felt compelled to say something, go for it. Can't hurt.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Where did this 5'2 thing come from? I though over 4'10 was OK to sit in the front (maybe I'm remembering wrong though?) All of the adult women in my family are 5'-5'3 so are we not supposed to be driving or sitting in the front? Or are you just referring to kids due to height/weight ratios or something??


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