# So Stupid, They DROVE my kid!



## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

My ds who just turned 5 yrs old (42 lbs) was playing at the next door neighbor's house. Well his friend's mom called me and said they were going down to the park and would it be OK if they took Jake with them? I said yes of course. We go down there often...it's a little bit of a hike but not bad. It did not even occur to me that they might drive there!

It actually didn't occur to me until after ds was home and suddenly the light bulb went off and I asked him. He said yes they drove and I asked if he was in a car seat and he said no. I asked if he just had the seat belt on and he said yes with a little thing on the bottom to make him sit higher. So it was just a backless booster









I'm a little disappointed that ds just went along with it and did not say anything. He's pretty well versed in car seat safety, he knows he needs to be in his 5 pt harness to be really safe, he knows he's supposed to tell grandma or grandpa if they put him in wrong or don't make it tight enough, etc. And now he's all excited saying he got to be like a big kid, he doesn't want to be in his seat anymore, etc, etc. Oh! And they told him that maybe he could ask for a big kid seat (aka a freaking booster seat) from Santa for Christmas!







:

These are nice people and I know they mean well. I'm really more annoyed with myself for not even realizing they were going to be in the car. I'm also sure this scenario will come up again and I'm not sure what to say? I mean obviously I will just drive him myself or he won't go but my neighbor is going to ask why.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Well, I wouldn't be disappointed in your son, he's only 5 after all. At least he was in a backless booster. he could have been in nothing at all. It's not the safeest option, but it could have been worse. I think your neighbor should have asked if she could drive your son over.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Yeah, I mean I think it should have occurred to me that they were driving. We walk a lot of places that most people drive to because we like to walk. I've never seen her walk anywhere at all so I'm sure in her mind it was a given they were driving.

And I didn't say anything to my son about it except that he still needed to be in a regular car seat. I was just surprised he didn't say anything at that moment since I've heard him tell his other friends they should be in car seats and such.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

You could do a number of things. you could always drive him. but, honestly, I'd probably start trying to get used to him going places with friends. You could buy a secondary seat to have for occasions when he will be riding in someones car. That could be a harnessed seat like a nautilus, or a booster seat(highback) like a turbo, monterey, etc. The new parkway coming out next month is technically a 4-point harness, since it has an anti-submarine clip, and might be a nice compromise between harness and booster.
At age 5 and 42 pounds,if he knows how to sit corrctly, a booster is actually a perfectly safe choice.

All that being said, I would have a chat with the parents, and let them know you would appreciate it if they would not make comments like "ask for a big kid seat" in front of your child, and let them know it upset you. And then a chat with your ds, explaining why his SAFETY seat is safer, and that he will continue to ride in his SAFETY seat for a while longer, etc. Is he going to kinder this fall, do you use institutional school? He's going to see a LOT of kids probably in boosters, backlesses, and nothing, so it's a good topic to broach with him.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

My dad and step-mom did that with my son we he was 4yo. I bawled like a baby when I found out and he had been put in a regular seat belt...no booster.
I would tell them why it's not safe and that you can't let him be driven around like that, plain and simple. They probably never even though about it















sorry you're having to feel that, mama.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

He is prob going to regular kindy next fall however the school is in our backyard. Like you walk out our back gate and you're in the school's yard and the building is about 12 feet away from our fence line. So obviously he'll just be walking over there.

Do you really trust other people to put your kid in a 5 pt harness correctly? I hardly see any kids ds's age in harnesses here and the few I do are in them improperly. Of course I would say how it needed to be but I also assume it probably goes in one ear and out the other, kwim?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I understand why you freaked out, but a 5 year old in a booster (even a backless one) is not super dangerous.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I bet the mom assumed a 5 year old could sit up properly for a drive short enough to be walkable.

Still weird that she wouldn't check with you about how she was driving your son...


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I understand why you freaked out, but a 5 year old in a booster (even a backless one) is not super dangerous.









I agree. He was in a legal and suitable seat, even though it wouldn't be my first choice and obviously wasn't yours.

And I don't think a (highbacked) booster seat would be bad for a 5.5yo (at Christmas). The fact is that most parents don't have extra higher-weight harnessing seats available, and a good highbacked booster would be suitable for trips to the park or carpools.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

My almost 5yo rides in a highbacked Britax booster. He meets the height and weight requirements, the seatbelt positions very well on him, and he stays upright even when asleep. He outgrew his 5 point carseat, and I just didn't feel like it made sense for us to invest in another huge carseat. Plus, he has an older brother who rides in a booster, and he definitely wanted to be "big." Our Volvo station wagon has built in boosters, basically like a backless booster, and one time dh did drive him in that because there was a mix up and he didn't have the booster seat. The seatbelt hit just fine on him, and while I much prefer he have the full back and head protection, I think it was fine.

I understand how you feel though. Last year, my SIL drove my older son, who at the time was 7yo, in just the seatbelt, no booster at all. She knows we use a booster for him, and I was very very upset. Dh had a talk with her to let me know how upset we were. (And, FWIW, ds DID tell my SIL that he wasn't supposed to ride without a booster.) Her justification was that he met the legal requirements to ride without a booster, so she thought it would be fine. I'm assuming that's what your neighbors thought.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I deffiently prefer to know if my child is in someone elses car. However I really don't see the huge thing with the booster. We officially made the "switch" from DD radian to a HBB (turbo) ahortly after she stated Kindergarden this year. She was 5.5 around 45lbs we'd had the turbo as our extra seat in DH car about a year at that point. She by this time fully met the weight she can sit up well and she lieks the ability to buckle her self in and out.
I actually carry an extra backless booster with me incase I might be transporting one of my DD friends (with there knowlege of course) I wanted something and of course I wont put a toddler in a booster ect but her fellow 5-6-7 year old friends I will.

Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Ohh santa brought DD the booster for Daddy car Christmas 07 (not really we jsut happened to place the order at the time but DD is still convinced







DD had turned 5 that past October.







We had to have another seat because of the way we worked out dropping off and picking up our child at shcool for the ups comming semester we had to have seperate seats for both cars but couldn't afford a $200 seat...

Deanna


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

I am absolutely not comfortable with him being in a booster right now. I don't care if he meets the minimum requirements or not. Just like I don't switch my kids forward facing when they meet those minimum requirements of 1 yr and 20 lbs. Why put him in a booster when he can be much safer in his 5 pt harness seat? That makes no sense to me at all.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

From a strict safety point of view walking is significantly more dangerous than riding the same distance in a legal carseat for which your child meets the weight requirements. I don't remember the exact statistics but I looked it up when we were carfree, and an unrestrained child in a car is still significantly safer than a walker.

Now, safety statistics aren't the only thing I consider when making decisions for my child, walking is a wonderful way to provide healthy exercise, build long term habits, and take care of the environment. It's what I'd choose if I had a choice, but I think you're overreacting.

Having said that, I wouldn't be buying a booster for Christmas if you have a perfectly good 5 point harness, but I also wouldn't prevent my child from riding properly buckled in a booster in other people's cars.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I wouldn't buy a booster to replace a harnessed seat for a child that age/size, but I'd consider buying one to use in other people's cars or for carpooling.


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
From a strict safety point of view walking is significantly more dangerous than riding the same distance in a legal carseat for which your child meets the weight requirements. I don't remember the exact statistics but I looked it up when we were carfree, and an unrestrained child in a car is still significantly safer than a walker.
.

I was going to post this too.

Your friend was completely safe and within the law. It would be more unsafe to haul around an extra 5 pt carseat and have it not installed properly in a friend's car than it would be to be in an appropriately-sized booster used correctly.

I can understand your disappointment, but I do think you're overreacting and I hope you don't damage your friendship by making this a bigger deal than it need be. I know my boys run out into the street at ages 5 and 7.5, so driving them to the park is WAY safer than walking with them. The fact that she even had an extra booster says a lot for her concern with safety. It's the minority of parents that still buckle their big kids into a 5 pt belt. I'm the ONLY one at my elem school with 2 carseats for my children (kindergarten and 2nd grade). Everyone else has moved on to boosters, mostly backless. Unless you always want to be the driver and you have enough 5 pt seats for all your kids friends, I'd try to make peace the fact that statistically, kids who meet the minimum size requirements for a booster will be safer in an accident than a child improperly restrained.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

There is far more research supporting erf than eh. AJ uses a booster in other people's car, never backless though. It's just not feasible for me to always harness him everywhere. He just turned 6, is 51#, and is almost out of his Nautilus height wise. He also uses a booster for field trips at school too (they don't use yellow buses). While I would be upset my friend wasn't clear they were driving, at least you're prepared for next time and you have some things to think about.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

I have to say I am shocked that people on the family SAFETY board are trying to convince me to lower my safety standards and let him ride in a booster.

Statistically he's also much safer in a 5 pt harness than a backless booster and that is where he will be. Yes, I would have driven him there or walked him there if I'd know she was going to drive. No, I do not want some stranger driving him around. She's not my friend. She just lives next door and I say hi to her when my kid goes over there to play or her kids come over here to play. I have no idea what kind of driver she is. And I highly doubt that walking through a quiet neighborhood with side walks is less safe than some random person who may or may not be a terrible driver driving my kid around. My 5 yr old never runs into the street. Never. He's been walking alongside me since he learned to walk. He knows the rules, I've seen him want to break them (cool things he sees in the street, cute dog across the street, drops treasured ball into street, etc) and stop himself.

Honestly I just can't believe I came here to vent and am instead having to defend myself for doing what is statistically safer for my child. I mean geez, if I posted about my 21 lb 2 yr old riding forward facing everyone would be falling all over themselves to convince me to turn her rear facing again and how the 1 and 20 lb rule is just the minimum. So which is it? Why are minimums OK in some situations but then not in others? That makes no sense to me at all.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm a CPST, and so are others who are okay with occasional booster use. I think we're concerned about safety.

There is clear and convincing evidence that rear-facing well past 1 year and 20 pounds is significantly safer. There is not such clear and convincing evidence that booster usage for kids of appropriate size and development (which is NOT 3 years/30 pounds, but could very well be 5 years/40+ pounds) is significantly less safer than harnessing.

And I'm certainly not trying to persuade you to do anything. There's nothing wrong with keeping him harnessed. But there's also nothing wrong, IMO, with another parent, with your consent to travel with your child and the absence of specific instructions, to put your child in a seat that is legal and appropriate even if it isn't the seat you would choose yourself.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Nobody is trying to convince you to lower your standards. If anything, people are trying to make you feel better about your DS riding in a booster for one trip.

FWIW, like Jennifer said there is MUCH more data supporting ERF than there is supporting EH. I can't think of any compelling study showing that a 5 pt harness is safer than a booster for a developmentally average kiddo over 4 years/40 pounds.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Nobody is trying to convince you to lower your standards. If anything, people are trying to make you feel better about your DS riding in a booster for one trip.

FWIW, like Jennifer said there is MUCH more data supporting ERF than there is supporting EH. I can't think of any compelling study showing that a 5 pt harness is safer than a booster for a developmentally average kiddo over 4 years/40 pounds.

Do you have a link to studies that have been done?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
Do you have a link to studies that have been done?

On ERFing or EH?


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
On ERFing or EH?

comparing EH to boosters


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I only have a sec (getting dinner on the table) but real quick, here's a couple links:

NHTSA publications (there are TONS of different reports/presentations etc)

This is the most compelling thing I've ever seen of EH vs boosters (youtube video).


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## Conifer (May 4, 2009)

Sorry but I think that the parents acted pretty responsibly...may not be a popular answer here. They asked for permission if your child could come with them to the park. They put him in a safety approved booster seat that is appropriate for his age and they made sure he was buckled in. They supervised him at the park and returned him unharmed. I think they did pretty much everything right. My 5 year old is in a low back booster and she fits very well in it. I have several boosters that her little friends ride in when we go places. I always make sure that they are the proper size and make sure they are buckled in very well. I'm not at all trying to tell you to lower your standards. We all set those for our children. I am much more picky about other things that others would think I was a little paranoid. But please don't be mad or insinuate that a parent is "stupid" for putting your child in a booster seat. She obviously thought she had your permission and did her best to keep your little one safe


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Actually, Conifer, I think most of us agree with you.









If I invite your child over for lunch, and you don't give me any heads-up about your family's dietary preferences, I'll feed your child what I feed the rest of my family. This might mean a grilled cheese sandwich on storebought "whitewheat" bread and non-certified-organic strawberries. That is a reasonable and appropriate lunch for a school-age child. I can understand another mother having stricter standards than I do, and if she told me about those standards I would do my very best to respect them, but if she didn't tell me what she wanted I'd be upset and hurt if she thought I was SO STUPID for preparing that lunch.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
And I'm certainly not trying to persuade you to do anything. There's nothing wrong with keeping him harnessed. But there's also nothing wrong, IMO, with another parent, with your consent to travel with your child and the absence of specific instructions, to put your child in a seat that is legal and appropriate even if it isn't the seat you would choose yourself.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Nobody is trying to convince you to lower your standards. If anything, people are trying to make you feel better about your DS riding in a booster for one trip.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I can understand another mother having stricter standards than I do, and if she told me about those standards I would do my very best to respect them, but if she didn't tell me what she wanted I'd be upset and hurt if she thought I was SO STUPID for preparing that lunch.


Yes, to all of this.

At least he wasn't a 23 mo old in a backless booster, like another poster! It could have been worse.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I also don't think the other parent did anything wrong. If you do feel strongly about him not riding in a booster, there's nothing wrong with letting her know. Just tell her you prefer he ride in a harness and next time they should walk or you should drive him/them. But there's really no reason to be angry.

My son is 4 years and 40 lbs and he primarily rides in a harnessed seat, but he does have a highback booster for occasional use and I will be buying a backless for emergencies. It's not an ideal seat, but it's not *unsafe* at this age and weight. Oh and I'm a CPST and certainly not lenient about car seat rules.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Is that what all this is about? Everyone thinks I'm calling the neighbor stupid??

I meant I was SO STUPID for not realizing she was driving him and not walking. I said in my 2nd or 3rd post that she was a nice lady and just doing what she thought was normal and acceptable. I don't think she was stupid at all. I think I was stupid for not realizing she was driving.

Obviously my posts have been taken the wrong way so I think I'm done with this thread now.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
Is that what all this is about? Everyone thinks I'm calling the neighbor stupid??

I meant I was SO STUPID for not realizing she was driving him and not walking. I said in my 2nd or 3rd post that she was a nice lady and just doing what she thought was normal and acceptable. I don't think she was stupid at all. I think I was stupid for not realizing she was driving.

Obviously my posts have been taken the wrong way so I think I'm done with this thread now.

Well, yeah your posts did come across that way. I'm sorry you meant something else, but stalking off because we didn't "get it" is a little immature.

You said that you think SHE thinks what she did is normal and acceptable, which implies that you DON'T think it's normal and acceptable. And you sound angry about it. How are we supposed to take it?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Yes -- and the arguments that it is "statistically safer" to have a 5yo in a harness than a booster, or that it is unacceptable to booster a 5yo. I haven't seen anything to prove that it is "statistically safer", and current best practice standards (not legal or manufacturers' minimums) as taught by NHTSA/SafeKids do allow for booster usage by a 5yo/45# child.


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## Julia24 (Jun 28, 2004)

I just wanted to say that I totally understand how you feel, but with a 5 year old (we now have a 7 year old) we just talked to HER about it, yk? I think it's perfectly appropriate to tell your son that he's not allowed to ride in a car without a harness....that if he wants to go somewhere with someone, you would be happy to install his seat for him, or whatever.

We have laxed our rules for her a bit, but when my 7 yo calls and asks if she can go with someone in a car (like a parent of one of her friends), I immediately just ask if they have a seat for her, and if the answer is no - then the answer is no. It's really pretty simple. I don't judge them for having a different standard than I do (although, of course I think mine is better or I wouldn't be doing it - that's why parenting is so subjective), but I do reserve the right to have my child transported the way I'd like.

Also - we have different rules for IN our subdivision as opposed to out on main roads. She can go without any seat at all from school (a block away) to our house, but I see lots of parents putting kids in FRONT seats for that short drive, and that is SO NOT HAPPENING. Or without a seatbelt in the backseat. I have been crystal clear with her that she MUST wear a seatbelt AND sit in the backseat of any car she is in. And she knows it and isn't afraid to tell parents that (in a not rude fashion). We always use the canned phrase "Different families have different rules". Pretty much covers everything from ear piercing to coke drinking to sleep overs, etc.


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