# White Anti-Racist Parents



## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Hi...I'm not excluding people of color from this discussion, I just think us white people have different parenting issues when it comes to raising our children in a racist culture.

Just wondering, how do you help your children NOT to learn racism. I happen to live in a pretty white area and it is a challenge for me to balance all the messages my children are getting in the media. How do you talk to really young children about racism? Anybody know any good books or have experience on this topic?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

The best way to combat racism is to teach your children that every person is a human being first and foremost.
Then to develop close relationships with people of color.
When you have good friends that are people of color, it is more difficult for a person to continue to be racist or ignorant of others.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I never thought about "teaching" about racism- I just teach that people come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. That's as much as my ds understands.

As my girls got older, and were exposed to racism/discrimination from reading a newspaper, or something they saw on TV, they asked questions and I answered them.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
I happen to live in a pretty white area and it is a challenge for me to balance all the messages my children are getting in the media. How do you talk to really young children about racism? Anybody know any good books or have experience on this topic?

Right now, it looks like your kids are young enough for you to avoid racist media or for you to discuss the biases you see together.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

My ds came home from the sitter's one day saying, "I like white people better than black people." Now, at that point we'd never really had conversations about race. He'd been exposed to people of many races since birth as our circle of friends, neighbors, family and his baby sitters all include several ppl of color. He is actually mixed-race but he isn't aware as he looks caucasion and the birth father is out of the picture. I was shocked and sad and well, didn't quite know what to do.

As he and I discussed his comment - including the fact that he is mixed-race (decided there was no time like the present) - I discovered that the event which triggered it was this....his sitter's daughters are black and he was mad at one of them because she disciplined him that day for hitting another child. It was pretty simple, pretty basic. I'm still rather amazed at how he took that and generalized it to "black people" instead of just "brittney".
We talked a lot about it, about this generalization he'd made and about his anger...and his behavior.

All in all it was just an interesting situation. One that, considering our circle of life, I never really thought we'd encounter.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

But isn't cultivating friends just because they are black just as bad as ignoring people just because they are black?


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## Patchfire (Dec 11, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
But isn't cultivating friends just because they are black just as bad as ignoring people just because they are black?









:

I've heard people say - to my face, mind - that all white people are racist, even those that think they aren't. It was a little more confrontational than necessary, but there's an element of truth in it - all people (white or not) have biases, often hidden. With that in mind, part of white I try to do with dd is ferret out and acknowledge that *I* have some prejudice, no matter how much I'd like to think otherwise.

I will admit to trying to vary the places we go, even for the grocery store or what have you. We live 'on the edge' of a very white enclave, but by making the decision to drive five minutes in the opposite direction, I can make sure that she sees more than one skin tone.

That said, it wasn't until she started watching Reading Rainbow that she realised there were 'black' people and 'white' people. Until then, dh & I were 'pink people'!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
But isn't cultivating friends just because they are black just as bad as ignoring people just because they are black?

Just want to gently point out that the issue is not just black and white. There are many different people in this world. Hundreds of different cultures, languages, and customs.

I, personally, have never 'cultivated' friendships or any kind of relationship. Nor have I made the conscious decision to 'ignore' people who are not the same as myself.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
And the fact that you would use the words "cultivate" and "ignore" show your thinking quite well.

Really? I'd love to hear your take on my opinions. Seriously.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Then to develop close relationships with people of color.

Develop, cultivate, what's the diff?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Claryfying my thinking - most 'white' people who are openly racist do not even try to get to know a person of color. They do not even take a moment to say, "Hi!" or acknowledge them as another human being. They do not attend cultural events. They continue to believe in their minds that everyone else is inferior to them, kwim?


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
But isn't cultivating friends just because they are black just as bad as ignoring people just because they are black?

i think that sort of attitude is only a problem if it is really as shallow as choosing your friends based on their skin color... to the point where you neglect to look deeply enough to appreciate that person (or people) for who they are.

at the same time, i don't think there is a problem with seeking a diverse community. i DON'T think that it is in the nature of ANYONE (white or otherwise) to be racist.


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

My 3yo has just started asking questions about race and culture. There are very few black people where I live, but there are lots of Mexicans and many local businesses where nobody speaks English. To be honest sometimes I don't shop in those stores because I'm embarassed that my Spanish is bad.

A few weeks ago dd heard kids on the playground speaking Spanish and wanted to know what they were saying. Then the other day waiting for the bus we heard a woman speaking Spanish so I told her my daugher was learning Spanish. She looked at dd and said "hola, nina", and my little girl hid underneath my skirt. So, that didn't go very well, but then I told dd that her Care Bears could speak Spanish too and switched the language on her DVD and she thought that was great.

Anyhow, I like Patchfire's advice about making an effort to go places that are more ethnically diverse. It is uncomfortable to suddenly be in the minority or unable to speak the language myself, and it wouldn't hurt for both me and dd to be a little more brave about crossing cultural boundaries.

--AmyB


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm glad these came up. I hope it comes to some good. I made a slightly infamous post in the "are you afraid of black people" thread last year. In it I acknowldged that I was aware that I was sometimes fearful of black men in situations where I was pretty sure I would not have been fearful if they were white. I also mentioned that I wasn't sure how to work on that since where I lived there simply are not very many blacks. Many Asians and Pacific Islanders but almost no blacks or Hispanics.

So... moved to Manhattan. My daughters kindergarten class (first day today!) is like a UN. Standing on the schoolyard waiting for her to come out I heard at least 7 different languages. So far she barely seems to notice racial differences. If a child she meets at the playground doesn't speak English she is curious what language they do speak and where they are from.

Sorry, I got a little blah blah blah for a minute there... what I guess I am getting at is that I think a lot can be gained by intentionaly seeking out situations of diversity for yourself and your young children, expose them to varied situations and various people. I think there is a lot to be gained by making sure you don't speak to or otherwise deal with people of other races differently than you deal with members of your own.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Claryfying my thinking - most 'white' people who are openly racist do not even try to get to know a person of color. They do not even take a moment to say, "Hi!" or acknowledge them as another human being. They do not attend cultural events. They continue to believe in their minds that everyone else is inferior to them, kwim?

That's clarifying your thinking, not clarifying your comments about my posts.

And here saying "people of colour" is not exactly common. It's not a phrase used here, so not one I am comfortable with. In fact, the one time I used it on this board, I got called on it.


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## I STIK M (Dec 12, 2004)

as a woman that looks asian- i feel like an americain, cant help how i look, i have to say that i would rather people NOT befriend me because i am asian, or my dh and i are interracial, than DO because they want the "im not rasist "quota. we can tell when people are just too excited to know the mixed couple, they will have us to mention in conversation to prove they are not rasist- ohh, were not rasist, we are friends with...us. many times it is not a problem for long because i am not asian enough for them so they dump us. strangley enough though, when see we other mixed couples of the same-white guy ,asain woman, young baby we almost always smile at each other, its like the long hair club, long hair guys nod at each other in passing, specially if they are harley or hotroders, dh is a long hair-more sensative ponytail man than harley guy but he does get and give the nod, i get it too when i drive the old 77 hotrod, but i am also longhaird. ohh and now a new one, people love to know the HOMEBIRTHERS! "yes,i know someone who homebirthed, my friend..." im sure lots of us know that one.....


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

Ok, just a funny story for comic relief. My 4yo ds goes to a preschool that is very diverse - his 3yo class had 3 black kids, 3 East Indians, 2 kids from Israel, 1 from Japan, etc. One day I went to pick him up, and there was a new little East Indian girl in his class. I said, "Oh! Who's your new friend? He pointed to the only other East Indian girl and said, "That's Aishu." "I know Aishu, but who's this little girl?" "Um. The OTHER Aishu." And here I was congratulating myself on how color-blind he was!


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Just my $0.02.....I never use the phrase "person of color"......I feel like its a "tippy-toe" phrase that indeed should stop being used.....I think sometimes it points to and I say sometimes it points to a level of discomfort....I mean I am caucasian I mean fair fair fair and I am still a "color" Its just cheesy.....OK enough about that....









I think one of the best ways to handle racism is to NOT make it a lesson until they ask......No one needs to tell a child to like someone or not.They are in fact some of the best examples of unconditional love towards one another. My parents never taught me one way or another and you simply grow up believing there is no difference.NOW should questions and issues arise surrounding race-which they are bound to do so as we are a VERY rascist country then it should be handled openly and honestly and compassionately-BUT not in a manor that would in ANY way give way to ANY sort of inferior thinking like "feeling sorry" for the black boy down the street or the hispanic kid who doesnt speak great english because I think that can backfire tof course we feel for any minority classified but our children may recieve that in a different way........Did that make sense?


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

One thing I do is not make it a black and white issue. Racism is not just against black people. It is like water that flows every way.
When we make it solely one color we ignore many others. We ignore issues that are intertwine on how to treat people.

We treat all people with respect. The same respect should go to all people in spite of looks, beliefs, age, or sexual orinations. It is a whole thing about being a good person and treating others well.

I have sat in shock when talking to an AA friend that uses the words "sp*c and d*go". I don't want my kids to be this way. I don't want the to say any of these words, not just the n word. I don't want them to think it is OK to say "I Jew'ed them down." I want them to see it all being wrong no matter whose mouth it comes from.


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## MamaNikki (Sep 7, 2005)

Unfortunately, my grandmother and older aunts and uncles are racist, I've heard each of them use the N word more than I'd like to admit, they even refer to Native Americans as Prairie N*****s...even though we are Native American.. so this will be an issue we'll have to deal with as the girls get older.

Our "plan" is to just teach our children that everyone is equal, and everyone deserves respect, and that treating someone differently because of race, religion, sexual orientation isnt something to do.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

If you are interested in learning childrens perception of race and culture, teaching for change is a wonderful resource. Go to catalog for items.

I grew up multi-cultural and was always amused how each culture percieved one another. Oh, and the jokes! I also gained insight that others probably don't understand. Multicultural people deal with things like what are you? or are you? Then the list of cultures. I am rambling, but my sister and I have a very open accepting view of all the world and my brother is the opposite. I agree with not "teaching it" or the push to go to other areas to learn culture, but some places like mine, race is a daily issue and I feel teaching tolerance can't hurt. But, its hard!! Like the slogan, "if you think education is expensive, try ignorance"


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

children naturally see differences in skin color as unique characteristics, not things to judge. Unless someone close to them tends to be critical of people's appearances in front of them, a child will naturally be accepting of everyone they meet as they are. That's not to say they don't have inquiries, though. But I do try not to point out differences between people my daughter and I see. If she questions "why does she have such curly hair and I don't?" (which she has of her friend prya), I ask "her mommy gave it to her, just like I gave you straight hair. isn't is beautiful?" We don't seek out "educational" ways to talk about racism. Thank heaven that in my daughter's 4 year old world there is no such thing yet.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

I agree with the pp who pointed out that it isn't just white people that have biases. All people do. This really isn't a "white" issue.

We happen to live in a very multi-cultural suburban town. I took my dd to the 'Y' yesterday and noticed how many different races and cultures were represented at the toddler gym.

We don't talk about race with any type of negativity - meaning, I don't talk about racism (my oldest is 5). I don't think it's appropriate, and we need to establish more positive feelings about racial differences, because as a culture, the whole thing is negative and adversarial from my view. But we do talk about skin color sometimes. And I'll say things like, "Isn't it wonderful that God made us in so many beautiful colors?"

I would also suggest checking out your local library. Ours happens to carry a surprising abundance of books about children of different colors, and people from all around the world. I think positive exposure in this form normalizes color differences, especially if you don't happen to have too much mulit-culturalism in your own town.

I also think it helps to expose your children to their own ancestry. We're not "just white" -- we're English, or Italian, or Eastern European, or Russian, or Austrian, or Nordic . . . Just like others aren't just "Asian" or just "Black". I think acknowledging the richness of culture and differences in ourselves helps our children learn to acknowledge and appreciate the diversity in others.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveMyLittles*
i think that sort of attitude is only a problem if it is really as shallow as choosing your friends based on their skin color... to the point where you neglect to look deeply enough to appreciate that person (or people) for who they are.

at the same time, i don't think there is a problem with seeking a diverse community. i DON'T think that it is in the nature of ANYONE (white or otherwise) to be racist.









:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

My sister and I were attending college together.
We are very social and have no problems making many friends.
There was one young man, I will call him Nick, that we had bonded with and had a lot of fun in his company. We would meet everyday for breaktime and talk and laugh, along with a few other friends. It was my favorite time of the day, as breaktime was sure to bring laughter. After breaktime, we would all hug each other and go our separate ways.

One day, we entered the breakroom to find Nick with his head down and looking upset. We asked what he needed from us, his friends. He then launched into a huge tirade about how the other guys made fun of him and threatened to beat him up. He started talking about how he hated *****, n-words, ******, ******, etc. and how the guys were saying they would beat him up if he continued to meet all of us at breaktime and how the guys didn't understand how great we all were and how much love and care he felt when he was with us.
I then gently asked him who he thought he was sitting with everyday. He replied, "My friends, the greatest people on earth!"
I said, well in light of the tirade you just went on, I would like to point out to you, Nick, that my sister and I are '******', Chris is a '****', Diane is a '*****', Charlie is a 'n-word', and Alison is Jewish.
Nick looked up and really looked at us, each of us. Then he said, 'Quit messin' with me, I'm already havin' a bad day, you guys."
When he realized we spoke the truth, he ran away and cried. We didn't see him for weeks. One day he came to the breakroom and said he was sorry and did we still care about him and still want to be friends with him. Of course, we all said, "Yes!" He told us about how he started hanging out with the other guys and how hateful and mean they were and he just couldn't stand it anymore. He talked about how they wanted to ride in the pick-up truck and throw full cans of beer at the black people sitting at the bus stop and how he, Nick, just could not bring himself to hurt any person, no matter what. He jumped out of the truck and ran home. He decided then and there that he would rather be friends with us, people who cared about other people, then those who wanted to hurt others.
Weeks went by and school was ending.
We all went over to Nick's house. There we learned that Nick came from a home of a single dad, who had been taught all his life to hate and be racist. Imagine Nick's father's surprise when we all showed up to be there for Nick. Nick knew what it meant to be loved, though, and I think that is what really crossed the border and put blinders on when he could not see us as different, kwim?
At graduation, we all cheered for Nick, along with his father. We all purposely hugged Nick's dad and congradulated him on such a wonderful job raising Nick and letting us be a part of Nick's life.















His father still gets drunk and spouts off all sorts of hate messages.
Nick married Alison, they even had a Jewish wedding.







He still says ignorant things, but when it is pointed out to him, he realizes he doesn't really feel that way, it is what he learned/heard all his growing up years.

What I believe the moral is? That a child who is raised with love, even if they are taught from birth to be racist, will still act out of love first and seek out others who know how to love and be loved.
Luckily for Nick, he also grew up without television and his father never pointed out exactly what or who the racist names were for, kwim?

I asked Nick once, what he thought those certain words would look like. He said, "I don't know. Something scary, I s'pose." :LOL


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

I have sat in shock when talking to an AA friend that uses the words "sp*c and d*go".

I'm wondering why you pointed out this person's race? I think this is the sort of thing we need to examine so we are not subconciously passing anything racist along to our children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *white_feather*
I agree with the pp who pointed out that it isn't just white people that have biases. All people do. This really isn't a "white" issue.

Of course everyone has biases and prejudices. This thread though is specifically aimed at white families and I think that's perfectly acceptable. White people are the ones who hold the power and have the privelege. You have to make especially sure that your children do not contribute to opressing others. This thread is focusing on the "white issue" part of it.

Also, I have to agree w/Irishmommy here. It is really wrong to try to befriend someone just because of their race. That's tokenizing (if their is such a word







). I have seen people try to do this to my dh and even to my kids and if feels really, really icky. DON'T do that. DO expose yourself and your children to people from all backgrounds. And please, what's w/the hatin' on Irishmommy? She knows there are all kinds of races and cultures. It seems you're just picking apart her posts.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *white_feather*
Just like others aren't just "Asian" or just "Black".

This is another good thing to teach your children. That most black Americans actually (and very unforunately) are just black/African. They sadly do not have the *priveledge" to even know what nationality they are or where exactly their ancestors came from. That priviledge was stolen from them.

I think at different ages children understand different things and are ready to learn different things. You know the best way to present it to them and you'll probably know the best time. I do think though that understanding white priviledge is necessary in combating racism.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

The best thing I have ever done was keep my kids away from my racist bigoted mother.

If you like to read, I highly recommend these two books:
Anti-Bias Curriculum
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...90357?v=glance
and you can read a bit about it here
http://www.education.tas.gov.au/ocll...models/abc.htm
http://www.freekidcrafts.com/Anti-Bias-Curriculum.html
http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-1/early.htm

and

Roots and Wings
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=UTF8&v=glance


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I'm a moron. Please move along


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I don't see anthing wrong with it. I think it's good she realizes there is a difference in white people being racist and non white people being racist. I think it shows that she is aware of white priviledge to some extent.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

They sadly do not have the *priveledge" to even know what nationality they are or where exactly their ancestors came from. That priviledge was stolen from them.
Do you, generic you, think it is important for a child to know their ancestry?


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

It has nothing to do with whether someone's ancestry is native to the US or anywhere. It also doesn't really matter what I think.

What's I'm saying is I *know* my ancestry. I am Icelandic,Chactaw, French, English, Scottish. It is a priviledge that I get to know this information. DH does not. He has no idea what nationalities he might have in him from Africa. That was *stolen* from Africans who were taken from their country. I think yes, it is important to a lot of people. That's not the point though. It should be everyone's right to know thier family's history if they want to. Now, *most* black Americans don't even have that priviledge.

Megan, you know I love ya, but I'm not getting what you're getting at or how it's positively contributing to anti-racism.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
Of course everyone has biases and prejudices. This thread though is specifically aimed at white families and I think that's perfectly acceptable. White people are the ones who hold the power and have the privelege. You have to make especially sure that your children do not contribute to opressing others. This thread is focusing on the "white issue" part of it.


Again, regardless of *********** -- ALL people are capable of bias, and ALL people are especially responsible in teaching others to live with tolerance. We have to acknowledge ALL people's responsibility in this matter if we're ever to achieve a truly integrated, multicultural society. I don't tolerate racism from my children, and I don't tolerate it from the African American children next door. And, for those of us who do live in multicultural communities, it is clear the damage that can be done when anyone engages in acts of bias. It hurts the whole community - regardless of the race of the oppressor.

No, I don't mind this thread being asked of white people. I think it's great, and I do think there are certain ways of handling the issue that are different based on race and power. Likewise, I also think it's important to remember that ending racism is everyone's responsibility.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*

Megan, you know I love ya, but I'm not getting what you're getting out or how it's positively contributing to anti-racism.










That is because I don't even understand myself







It isn't jsut you. I'm all of a sudden having a brain fart....

I had never thought about those that had their ancestry stolen. But I was wondering if there was an understanding that we are all from all over it may be beneficial. Does that make sense?

I can be such a moron sometimes..... (oh I was asking you as in generic you)

I'm gong to go edit and try to be clear


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

White Supremacy Culture

Quote:

Because we all live in a white supremacy culture, these characteristics show up in the attitudes and behaviors of all of us -- people of color and white people. Therefore, these attitudes and behaviors can show up in any group or organization, whether it is white-led or predominantly white or people of color-led or predominantly people of color.
I suggest checking out this article as it not only provides definitions, but antidotes to help dismantle racism and prejudice.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *white_feather*
Again, regardless of *********** -- ALL people are capable of bias, and ALL people are especially responsible in teaching others to live with tolerance. We have to acknowledge ALL people's responsibility in this matter if we're ever to achieve a truly integrated, multicultural society. I don't tolerate racism from my children, and I don't tolerate it from the African American children next door. And, for those of us who do live in multicultural communities, it is clear the damage that can be done when anyone engages in acts of bias. It hurts the whole community - regardless of the race of the oppressor.

Huh? I didn't say "***********." I said white priviledge. I'd give you a link on the concept but my computer is really screwy today. I'll try later. And I emphatically disagree w/you. There *is* a difference. A huge difference.

And also, excuse me? "Those of us." I live in a multicultural community too. I live in a multicultural household. I will never agree that the damage is the same. Are you familiar with institutionalized racism?

*ETA: link

www.whiteprivilege.com

and um...I always spell privilege wrong.







:


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Re: White Supreamacy Culture.

This sounds more like corporate American culture, rather than white supreamacy culture. Wish they'd use a less inflammatory term (this term only serves to stir the pot of negativity in regards to race relations). If the writers went to France, they'll find a very different culture and way of doing business, even though it's still predominanty white people in power.

Regardless, it still raising interesting talking points in regards to how 'multicultural' we really are in corporate America.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Everybody wants to pussy foot around the fact that there are different people, with different colors, different religions, foods, ways. The idea that people aren't naturally racist is to me ridiculous. Yes, it can be taught to be worse than what comes naturally, but the ability to notice that someone is different does come naturally. And haven't different cultures been fighting for ever and ever? On this board, I have noticed that people are flamed for having different parenting philosophies than others. This truly is not a safe forum to be honest. Even a woman who admitted that she nurses on a schedule because she follows, I believe it was Japanese parenting philosophies, was questioned about her choices. Why is that okay, but admitting that cultures and races do clash isn't?

Think about this, a white (yeah, whatever) child goes to her middle eastern (again shh) classmates house. They are having different food, they have different decorations, it smells different, it.is.different. Why deny it? It's not bad to be different. And getting a kid all hung up on labels is goofy. They just want to play. Let 'em play. Keep them away from overtly racist people, and let them decide who they want to like. It likely won't have anything to do with the color of someones skin, when they do decide to dislike someone, it will most likely be because that person is a jerk. There are jerks and nice people in myriads of colors. The same people, (myself included) that will pound people because they drive S.U.V's or formula feed or what ever, will decry any kind of comment that is about a persons skin tone. Even just remarking that someone is African american, will get someone flamed. But it's ok to make assumptions about someone based on the vehicle they drive. I do it too.
By the way, it's rude to point out a persons spelling errors, as a pp did. It's rude to point out grammatical errors. Political correctness isn't something to pick and choose what you want to be pc about.


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## termasan (Jul 1, 2005)

I am pleased to see the discussion of how white parents can take an active role in bringing up the next generation with less racism. Racism is a white problem. Just as you wouldn't tell an abused wife to teach her abusive husband why it is wrong, how to fix it, what makes him the way that he is, etc...it is not up to people of color to fix racism, it is up to white people, those who are in the majority.

Whether we acknowlege it or not, kids get racist messages from far subtler sources than the media. The simple notion of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is complicated...in many cases, non-whites in this country haven't even had access to "bootstraps" or have had them ripped from them (Jim Crow, Japanese internment, etc.). We like to teach our kids that if you work hard enough, then you can achieve anything you set your mind to. People of color, or people who are disenfranchised, have learned over generations that there are people in power (at school, banking institutions, etc.) who have control over their lives in ways that hard work doesn't combat. This country was not built by sheer hard work and enterprising men and women (white), but on the backs of slaves, Mexican laborers (who picks our produce in horrid conditions so we can pay $.89 for a head of lettuce to enjoy a healthy lifestyle?), Chinese railroad workers, etc. As our children are exposed to these ideas in books and educational TV, it is important for parents to be active in fostering a balanced view.

This is why I disagree that we shouldn't openly teach against racism. I don't think that waiting for a situation where it comes up is the best way, rather being proactive. I also think that we shouldn't teach that color doesn't matter (perhaps we can teach that color shouldn't matter, but that is very different), because color does matter, as our history (and some would say even present tragedies) has taught us.

Whether living in a predominately white area or a very diverse one, kids get a sense over time of who is in power, who we think are important people, what they can see themselves become, (and not just race, right? We want kids to see women doctors, for example.) etc. The sheer fact that whites can live and work and never have to experience the feeling of being in the minority (as some pps have pointed out can be very uncomfortable), this is a privilege that people of color do not have. Recognizing priveleges as a member of the majority group (in this case we're talking about race, but the same would hold true for sexism issues) is so important to understanding why it really doesn't matter that one isn't racist, it matters what benefits and priveleges you have because of racism and use that position for good.

We need to teach that stereotypes and hatred/bias/bigotry based on them have no place in a peaceful, nurturing family or world.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
Huh? I didn't say "***********." I said white priviledge. I'd give you a link on the concept but my computer is really screwy today. I'll try later. And I emphatically dissagree w/you. There *is* a difference. A huge difference.

Apologies for ascribing a term to you that you didn't use. To me, power and privledge are pretty similar, and off-hand, I don't see much difference. Those in power get privledge. What I'm disagreeing with is that only white people have a responsibility to end racism (and I'm not sure you said that, but since you took issue with my post that was making that point, I'm assuming you disagree with my point).

Quote:

And also, excuse me? "Those of us." I live in a multicultural community too. I live in a multicultural household. I will never agree that the damage is the same. Are you familiar with institutionalized racism?
I love to talk about this stuff, but love it more if we can keep it as civil as possible? I hope that with re-reading my statement, it will be clear to you that nothing personal was at all intended by my statement about "those of us" living in multicultural community. In my community, we have an active race relations council, and it's widely acknowledged that ending racism is the responsibility of all peoples. It's clear that if one group is being hurt, it hurts the entire community by causing divides, and disallowing individual talents to thrive, and keeping the schools from being safe, thriving environments. And to me, the fact that we all realise we're in this together, and we realise that if one suffers, we all suffers, it's what makes us a _community_, rather than simply muliticultural.

I am VERY familiar with institutionalized racism, and you won't get me to disagree that it's serious and needs to be addressed. But when the town black kids go head to head with the Koreans, in the park where it should be safe for everyone, it serves as a very clear wake-up call that eradicating racism is the responsibility of ALL parents.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

adensmom, I'm not sure why you seem so upset or are coming across so negative.







: I'm just confused about the attitude.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*

Think about this, *a white (yeah, whatever) chil*d goes to her middle eastern (again shh) classmates house. They are having different food, they have different decorations, it smells different, it.is.different. *Why deny it? It's not bad to be different.*

The same people, (myself included) that will pound people because they drive S.U.V's or formula feed or what ever, will decry any kind of comment that is about a persons skin tone. Even just remarking that someone is African american, will get someone flamed. .

Who ever said there is anything wrong with being different? I think differences are very important and I don't believe in being "color blind" at all. I've said it many times before. If you're referring to me questioning another poster pointing out someone's race that is different. Rather than describing someone it seemed she was possibly bringing up race when it wasn't relevant. I also wondered why she wanted to share that with us, that was shocked by what her "AA friend" said. I got the impression she expected different standards from a POC. I hope I just read it wrong though. That is racist when people think that POC should know even more than white people not to say racial slurs. I was just making a point. We need to exploore all avenues.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Okay, can everyone please, pretty please forgive all of my typos? I just cannot go back and edit them. Thecomputer I'm on is so screwy and slow and this keyboard is SO hard for me to type on so please forgive and pretend not to see okay? :LOL
















Also, I did edit one of my posts above to include the white privilege link.

White_feather, I can see what you're saying, and I think we are very close to being on the same wave length really. I think maybe we need different definitions for the different types of racism. I think your focus is individual and my focus is institutional. Does that make sense? I think both are important and both tie together but I think it has to start with the institution (which of course starts with individuals) and knocking down white privilege. I feel like I'm not explaining well at all.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

A Message to White America

Quote:

Strangely, we prefer to blame those who are the victims of our prevailing racism as if they were architects of their own victimization and not us. The insanity and hypocrisy of this is mind boggling.

Quote:

The problem of racism rests with those of us who are white - we are the racists, we are the architects of this dreadful disease...
The White Problem

Quote:

So often 'the race problem' is seen as black people's fault. But they didn't create racism - and they certainly don't benefit from it. *Chris Brazier* argues that white people should now accept that they are the problem.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Mama, I'm sorry if I came across as angry. It wasn't directed at you but at the topic.
I think getting hung up on descriptions of people is unhelpful. It hurts my feelings not a bit when people describe me as white. It's a lot faster than Irish, Scottish, and French American. I feel that it is a topic that is much too emotionally involved, with everybody trying to deny that they judge others.

I have spent a lot of time in states and countries and situations where I have been the only white person, or one of the only white people, and I can say that I know full well what racism directed right at me feels like. People just don't like people that are different. They just don't. Whether they have different political views, or are different races. As I think it was White Feather said, watch the black and asian kids go head to head in the park, it's a wake up call. They don't like each other, which is why they bash each other over the heads with pieces of iron.
Riots, been in them. They suck, and the ones I've been in have always been racially caused. Racism is. As a white person, I've been taught to feel particularly guilty about it, and to not retaliate when I'm called a honky. Not that I don't retaliate, I absolutely do. And I feel even angrier when my anger is met with disbelief and confusion, like I'm just supposed to take it, because I'm "privileged".
I feel the best people can hope for is to cohabitate in the same environment without hurting each other.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *termasan*
I am pleased to see the discussion of how white parents can take an active role in bringing up the next generation with less racism. Racism is a white problem. Just as you wouldn't tell an abused wife to teach her abusive husband why it is wrong, how to fix it, what makes him the way that he is, etc...it is not up to people of color to fix racism, it is up to white people, those who are in the majority.

This was an intelligent, interesting post. However, I just want to disagree with a couple points, if you don't mind.

I might agree with this analogy if I saw the world as just "black" and "white" but if that abused wife started abusing her kids, the dogs, or the neighbors, I would definitely hold her accountable (and wouldn't find much comfort in blaming the abusive husband for the abusive wife's behavior).

Quote:

This country was not built by sheer hard work and enterprising men and women (white), but on the backs of slaves, Mexican laborers (who picks our produce in horrid conditions so we can pay $.89 for a head of lettuce to enjoy a healthy lifestyle?), Chinese railroad workers, etc.
ITA about the questionable way this country was built and continues to thrive. But in the interest of historical accuracy, you might also add indentured servants to the list (largely a group of underprivileged, struggling white immigrants).

Quote:

This is why I disagree that we shouldn't openly teach against racism. I don't think that waiting for a situation where it comes up is the best way, rather being proactive. I also think that we shouldn't teach that color doesn't matter (perhaps we can teach that color shouldn't matter, but that is very different), because color does matter, as our history (and some would say even present tragedies) has taught us.
I don't know if you were referring to my post here - where I said I don't teach my own son about racisim, but I did want to clarify that I don't teach him this concept because he's only 5. There are many issues in the world that concern me deeply, but my goal with my son is exposing him to the good in the world now. When he's older and more developmentally ready to handle tougher issues, I believe addressing racism and other issues is critical in preparing him to successfully navigate the world.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I just wanted to add that the racist and sexist sterotypes on TV are one of the main reasons my kids don't watch it.

Well, it took me more than 20 minutes to get this response through so I don't think I'll be able to participate in this thread again until I get my computer problems figured out.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
Okay, can everyone please, pretty please forgive all of my typos?

Ha! Well, at least you TRIED to edit your typos. I just let my glaring typos hang out like dirty laundry. I can't be bothered to fix them. And I can't spell priviledge right either.

Quote:

White_feather, I can see what you're saying, and I think we are very close to being on the same wave length really. I think maybe we need different definitions for the different types of racism. I think your focus is individual and my focus is institutional. Does that make sense? I think both are important and both tie together but I think it has to start with the institution (which of course starts with individuals) and knocking down white privilege. I feel like I'm not explaining well at all.








I don't think we're far off either. The good news is that on this thread, we're all pretty much on the same side (ie. racism is bad). There's just differences in interpreting it, and how to handle it. It's such a mind-bogglingly huge issue that it's no wonder it stirs up so much disagreement and controvery -- but it helps to remember when we're all truly on the same side.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *white_feather*
I might agree with this analogy if I saw the world as just "black" and "white" but if that abused wife started abusing her kids, the dogs, or the neighbors, I would definitely hold her accountable (and wouldn't find much comfort in blaming the abusive husband for the abusive wife's behavior).

I don't think any 'problem' has ever been solved by starting at the bottom. I think most people would agree that if the abusive husband is removed from the scene and all abusive husbands were no longer allowed in society, then the problems of the wife were solved, everything else would work out.

Also, continually shifting blame is exactly that. Shifting blame is not looking nor trying to solve the problem.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Back to the OP...

One of the things I do is read really good books to my kids that contain characters of different ethnic backgrounds and who have lived at different times. A few that come to mind are:

Follow the Drinking Gourd by Jeanette Winter

Mrs. Katz and Tush by Patricia Polacco

Who Owns the Sun by Stacy Chbosky (which can be hard to find but VERY worth the effort).

Grandfather's Journey by Allen Say


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

Also, continually shifting blame is exactly that. Shifting blame is not looking nor trying to solve the problem.

I agree...and this is exactly what happens whenever we discuss white privilege. People start pointing the finger at every other race and saying "Well, they're doing it too." Let's just focus on white privilege and white racism...for once.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

I don't think any 'problem' has ever been solved by starting at the bottom. I think most people would agree that if the abusive husband is removed from the scene and all abusive husbands were no longer allowed in society, then the problems of the wife were solved, everything else would work out.
Really? You REALLY think that if all abusive husbands were kicked out, then all the wives would cease to be abusive, too? Is abuse so simplistic as that? Or is there something else to human nature that makes abuse and prejudice something a little more endemic - something that crosses all cultures throughout human history . . .

The problem ISN'T being solved by starting at the bottom, and no one has suggested it. Huge changes have taken place in the last 2 generations alone - mostly starting in the middle, and swelling up. Now big corporations and governments have tremendous pressures to make change just to continue to succeed in the world, and so they are. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot more work to be done - there is. There are considerable complex institutionalized issues that need to be addressed - such as scholastic achievement gaps, that require more than just "fix it, white man".

In an abusive relationship, if the couple wants to continue living together, they usually go to therapy. No responsible therapist will tell the wife not to work to contribute to the improvement of the relationship. No therapist will say, "oh well. You're a victim. You just sit here and look pretty and I'll make sure you're husband fixes everything." If it were that way, we'd call it paternalism. Which, if I remember right, is actually a form of racism. Which English poet was it that extolled the virtues of caring for our little black brothers? Learning to live together is a two way street, and both parties are responsible for contributing (usually in different ways, but still contributing). If they don't, the whole relationship crumbles.

So, if we want to live in a TRULY multicultural society, we all have to work at it.

Quote:

Also, continually shifting blame is exactly that. Shifting blame is not looking nor trying to solve the problem.

Quote:

I agree...and this is exactly what happens whenever we discuss white privilege. People start pointing the finger at every other race and saying "Well, they're doing it too." Let's just focus on white privilege and white racism...for once.
If you're reading my argument as "shifting the blame" then I'm either not conveying my message well, or you're assuming something I've not stated.

As I've said throughout this thread, talking about how white people can teach their kids to be open-minded is a good idea. There are different issues to address. However, I reeled with the comments that took the OP's question quite a bit further, suggesting that "racism' is only a white person's problem" in those words and in others. If someone gets to make such an inflammatory comment, then I get to disagree. My disagreement doesn't shift blame. It doesn't say I'm not responsible for making change. It doesn't mean white people shouldn't have a conversation about raising compassionate, open-minded children. But, it does mean that we're ALL in this world together, and we are ALL responsible for communicating, for talking it out, for raising GOOD kids. ALL of us. And to insist that only white people can be racist (in a personal as opposed to institutionalized sense) is anti-social and racist in and of itself. It contributes to the problem, to the resentments, to the negative energy between the races.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

1). No offense but the abusive husband analogy is just not a good one and is not working so let's let it go.

2). I wasn't specifically referring to you at all with my post that you quoted. However, I think your last post is doing exactly what I was saying.









3). Did you read the link I posted?









4). It's never good when I start responding with a list. :LOL







:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

Really? You REALLY think that if all abusive husbands were kicked out, then all the wives would cease to be abusive, too?
Obviously my post was read wrong. I said that the abusive wives should then be helped to no longer be abusive.
The point was to show that without the first problem there would not be continuous problems stemming from the first.

If white people had not created racism in the first place, it would not exist today.

Yes, it is up to white people to end racism.

Yes, non-whites need to be supportive of white people ending racism. That does not mean it is our problem to solve, though.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Wow! I have been super busy and have not had a chance to read this thread since I posted the question. I am SOOO happy to see so much good dialogue going on. I also feel like my brain is going to pop right open...I think we white people get so restimulated by the issue of racism. It is just LOADED with emotion.

Promise me that despite our conflicts we can keep talking?? I think that is the key to solving this whole issue.

One thing i think needs to be clarified is that racism is not an inherent human characteristic. Absolutely not. As our children demonstrate, to notice differences among us both physical and cultural, is not the same thing as using those differences to oppress those who do not look like us. I think, and there is much evidence of this, that human beings cooperate and love one another, regardless of skin color MUCH more regularly than we hurt one another. Despite what our history books and media show us, just look around you. COuntless examples of love and cooperation on a daily basis.

So where does this enigma come from? I think that the race issue is partly a diversion from the real issue which is classism. It divides poor people so that we are less able to unite and fight for our basic human rights. THere are lots of books out on this...look up Roedigger, his are good. My thinking is not real clear where class comes in so i would love to hear from you all.

There seems to be much discussion around the issue of "cultivating" friendships with people of color. This sounds icky, i know. I think what is important is that it is easy for us white people, especially those of us who live in mostly white communities, to just associate with exclusively white people, thus the images and stereotypes are children witness in the media are not counteracted with real, intimate, human relationships. Now, I am not suggesting we go out and grab the first asian person we see and exchange phone numbers. But i think we take a risk that we will look stupid and silly, speaking Spanish for example (been there) and see what that brings up for us. We are too used to being the comfortable ones. If in the process, and i think it is highly likely, we meet people with whom we feel a bond, then the friendship will naturally occur. Good for us, good for our little ones, right?

More and more i see it as key to my survival as a human being, to break down the walls that separate me from my fellow HUMANs. I simply feel rotten, and not alive when i feel segregated from whole groups of people.

One more thing and i will end this long post. We white people are not raised, do not live day to day, year to year, learning about how to live and survive with racism as most people of color do. Because we are the recipients of power and privilege (it took me a 75 pg paper on WHite privilege to spell it right), it is a non-issue for us until it is pushed in our faces. I was 25 by the time i learned about institutional racism and it was HARD. So here we are trying to figure it out and maybe try to give our kids a clue so they don't have to live their young lives without that closeness and love with all people. I guess what it comes down to for me is not whether or not, but how to talk about it to their developmental level? I know i need to address this with my 3 year old, but what are the actual words? What are the actions?Those of you that posted real examples helped me out alot and i would love to hear more from you.

Lets be patient with one another. LEt's keep talking.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

We haven't really talked about racism, we just teach by example. We don't surround ourselves with people of color, but when we meet POC, and all people, we are respectful and humble. Our sons knows the history of many ethnicities in the U.S. and abroad.

We have multicultural toys and our daughter has baby dolls that are various skin tones. They know that caucasian women give birth to babies of color, and women of color give birth to light skinned babies. They know this through seeing the world around them, and not necessarily their intimate world.

Isa came home from her grandmother's one day and later we started playing with her dollhouse. We have an African American father, a caucasian mother and three babies of veried skin tones. We also have other adults including a woman of color and a caucasion man. After months of playing with the first couple as a family, she suddenly decided black and white don't match. I wondered why. The reason, grandma said so. It has taken nearly a year for us to gently rid her of this notion. African Americans and caucasions may not match, but they COORDINATE









Anyway, I have ramble, but I hope I have made my point.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Way to go that you don't just buy barbie for your little one! I think it is really important that our toys are representative of the whole specturm thathumans come in.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
We haven't really talked about racism, we just teach by example. We don't surround ourselves with people of color, but when we meet POC, and all people, we are respectful and humble.

What i'm wondering though is, without real, intimate relationships with POC, how can we say that we are really countering racism and it's divisiveness at all? I don't think its enough to just be nice if we are still essentially isolated from one another. If we are teaching by example, isn't the example then that we behave respectfully and humbly around POC but we don't really deal with having a relationship? That it is not possible? THat there is a difference between us that precludes us being friends? Just wondering what you think.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *white_feather*
Again, regardless of *********** --


There *is* no regardless. You can not separate racism from ***********, if you attempt to then it is impossible to really be anti-racist.

Like being anti-violence etc. truly seeking to raise children who are not racist requires some real inner work as well. I would suggest that a parent begin him or herself by reading about racism and white privilege. Some good resources have already been given. I would include http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac...Unpacking.html this. I may include some books if anyone is interested.

America is a white supremacist society, teaching your children to be anti-racist means being truly able to see the myriad of subtle ways racism is enforced and reinforced throughout American culture. It is about so very much more than just teaching your children to see everyone as human beings, because from magazines to television, to simple playground or water cooler culture we are fed the superiority of white standards of beauty, culture etc.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
What i'm wondering though is, without real, intimate relationships with POC, how can we say that we are really countering racism and it's divisiveness at all? I don't think its enough to just be nice if we are still essentially isolated from one another. If we are teaching by example, isn't the example then that we behave respectfully and humbly around POC but we don't really deal with having a relationship? That it is not possible? THat there is a difference between us that precludes us being friends? Just wondering what you think.


I wish I knew the answers to your questions. We live in an area that just isn't very ethinically diverse. There is a major university here, so we do see lots of ethnic diversity in the student population. However, I just don't see many people my age and my children's age who aren't white. That makes it hard for us to have "real, inimate relationships with POC". As much as I'd sometimes like to, we can't just up and move to a more diverse area. For the record, I grew up in a town of 2000 white Christians. It was a very rural area, but I never encountered racism. I guess if there isn't any diversity, there can't be any blatent racism. My parents aren't the slightest bit racist and I always knew that racism was wrong.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
America is a white supremacist society, teaching your children to be anti-racist means being truly able to see the myriad of subtle ways racism is enforced and reinforced throughout American culture. It is about so very much more than just teaching your children to see everyone as human beings, because from magazines to television, to simple playground or water cooler culture we are fed the superiority of white standards of beauty, culture etc.

I am not white, but do think it does/would help by teaching children that all people are human beings and setting up certain standards of behavior that is extended to every and all human beings. But maybe that is because I am on the bottom, so to say.








I guess, for myself, I do turn a blind eye when we are hurt by racism. Like when we go to the playground and the mothers pull their children away from us and most times just leave. Or the time we went to the beach and within an hour, everyone was gone. Or when we go to the grocery and the baggers argue about who is going to bag our groceries and I usually end up doing it myself.
My children see all of this and worse. And yet I continue to teach them to treat everyone as human beings first and foremost.
Other people of color never react/act that way towards us.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
It was a very rural area, but I never encountered racism. I guess if there isn't any diversity, there can't be any blatent racism.

I think they were rhetorical questions so don't worry about it! Actually, I really disagree with the above. This country is highly diverse as a whole. THe fact that POC aren't more proportionately represented in our governemnts, universities, white collar workplaces, towns and neighboorhoods is a problem. The fact that there are places that seem to be w/o many POC living there is the result of very blatant racism. It is actually a symptom of racism when towns and locales are without POC. We Americans have such an extensive history of exclusion and segregation, for example, explicit legislation prohibiting POC from living in many areas. Most WHite people, are not familiar with this history to the point where it just seems the norm that we should live so separately.

A quick story i will never forget. Shortly after the birth of my first child, we moved from Portland,to a very rural, white area of oregon. I was having lunch with an AA acquaintance from school and in the process i started to feel very close to her. At the end of lunch i invited her out to our place. She shook her head and told me she didn't come out that way because people look at her funny. "They look at me suspicious," she said. I was totally rejected and heartbroken. At the time it felt she was saying we couldn't be friends. Since then, however, other friends of color have been open with me about why rural white areas make them feel uncomfortalbe. And to tell the truth, i don't blame them.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I am not white, but do think it does/would help by teaching children that all people are human beings and setting up certain standards of behavior that is extended to every and all human beings. But maybe that is because I am on the bottom, so to say.








I guess, for myself, I do turn a blind eye when we are hurt by racism. Like when we go to the playground and the mothers pull their children away from us and most times just leave. Or the time we went to the beach and within an hour, everyone was gone. Or when we go to the grocery and the baggers argue about who is going to bag our groceries and I usually end up doing it myself.
My children see all of this and worse. And yet I continue to teach them to treat everyone as human beings first and foremost.
Other people of color never react/act that way towards us.

Great post MITB. I teach my children the same thing. I just can't believe that other people act that way toward you. It makes me sad to think that people are actually like that. I'm lucky that I've never experienced people treating others like that. It would severely piss me off.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

(((MITB)))









That behaviour makes me shudder.







:


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*

Like being anti-violence etc. truly seeking to raise children who are not racist requires some real inner work as well. I would suggest that a parent begin him or herself by reading about racism and white privilege.

Thanks Mahdokht. This is so true. I think alot of what is going on on this thread is white people trying to sort everything out. I feel like i have been working on it for years and i am just scratching the surface. So i hope everybody sticks with the conversation, inner and intra.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Please understand people that that behavior is all too common. THat and many many other, more subtle behaviors that are truly abhorent. Racism is so much more that just those overt acts.

Joyful hands, i love that your babe has the same gorgeous head of hair that you do!


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*

A quick story i will never forget. Shortly after the birth of my first child, we moved from Portland,to a very rural, white area of oregon. I was having lunch with an AA acquaintance from school and in the process i started to feel very close to her. At the end of lunch i invited her out to our place. She shook her head and told me she didn't come out that way because people look at her funny. "They look at me suspicious," she said. I was totally rejected and heartbroken. At the time it felt she was saying we couldn't be friends. Since then, however, other friends of color have been open with me about why rural white areas make them feel uncomfortalbe. And to tell the truth, i don't blame them.

I don't blame them for feeling that way either. Although, in my hometown, I can't imagine anyone being anything less than hospitable to ANYONE who is passing through. That doesn't mean that people passing through shouldn't feel uncomfortable though. I can imagine that many city-dwellers of all colors would be freaked out by the whiteness/ruralness/big trucks in that town! This evening, my dh told me I am just so idealistic that I have a hard time understanding why and how people can be racist. I was watching an interview with Colin Powell and there was a question about the US being ready for a "black president". I was surprised by the question and just couldn't understand why race should make a difference in a presidential candidate. That's when dh swooped in with his "idealistic" comment. I just don't get it!


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
Great post MITB. I teach my children the same thing. I just can't believe that other people act that way toward you. It makes me sad to think that people are actually like that. I'm lucky that I've never experienced people treating others like that. It would severely piss me off.


I didn't say that we should refrain from teaching our children to see everyone as equally human, equally deserving of respect, kindness etc. That is a foundation of my own parenting practice, but when discussing racism that is just a start, it is not enough to stop there. Regardless of what we teach in the home, our children are bombarded with racist messages that we need to actively counteract. It's almost like trying to raise media savy kids by pointing out that everything you see on television can't be trusted, but not teaching them anything beyond that one point. We need to point out and discuss instances of racism and make it clear to our children exactly why they are wrong, how deeply they hurt etc.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
Please understand people that that behavior is all too common. THat and many many other, more subtle behaviors that are truly abhorent. Racism is so much more that just those overt acts.

Joyful hands, i love that your babe has the same gorgeous head of hair that you do!


So true.







&

Awww, shucks!







Thanks.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
I didn't say that we should refrain from teaching our children to see everyone as equally human, equally deserving of respect, kindness etc. That is a foundation of my own parenting practice, but when discussing racism that is just a start, it is not enough to stop there. Regardless of what we teach in the home, our children are bombarded with racist messages that we need to actively counteract. It's almost like trying to raise media savy kids by pointing out that everything you see on television can't be trusted, but not teaching them anything beyond that one point. We need to point out and discuss instances of racism and make it clear to our children exactly why they are wrong, how deeply they hurt etc.

You're absolutely right, Mahkdot, and that isn't the only thing I'm going to teach my children about racism. Dd is 3.5 and ds is 15mos. so right now, I try to keep it age appropriate. I have taken quite a few women's studies and sociology and anthro classes, so I am knowlegeable about white privlege and such.


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## AngelaB (Nov 20, 2001)

Hi,
I have been lurking and remembered a neighbor of my mom's who is a medium coffe colored black woman, who told my mom that she broke up with her boyfriend because he was too "dark". I dont even know what to call what she did. She didnt, as far as I know, have a problem with other races. She thought my mexican/white son was beautiful and she had a girlfriend from work that she talked about that was korean.
It was interesting to hear her talk and it sounded like her beleifs came directly from how she grew up.
I dont go out of my way to talk about racism with my son, however we talk alot about how he treats others and what he thinks of the behavior of the kids at school. We talk about the ways to stick up for others or how to help. We talk about being nervous in new situations including being around people who look strange to us.
We point out interesting looking people and talk about them. "Hey that woman has some really red hair what do you think" "that woman has a sari on do you know anyone from india?" " that kid speaks spanish, do you remember how to say hello in spanish" ect.ect ect.
Anyways !!!!


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
Way to go that you don't just buy barbie for your little one! I think it is really important that our toys are representative of the whole specturm thathumans come in.

What i'm wondering though is, without real, intimate relationships with POC, how can we say that we are really countering racism and it's divisiveness at all? I don't think its enough to just be nice if we are still essentially isolated from one another. If we are teaching by example, isn't the example then that we behave respectfully and humbly around POC but we don't really deal with having a relationship? That it is not possible? THat there is a difference between us that precludes us being friends? Just wondering what you think.

By my examples given. Treating all humans with respect and dignity, learning the history of oppression of POC in our country and in others. Leading by example.

I cannot in good conscience befriend someone, or seek them out because they are a POC. Is that true friendship? It sounds a little like using someone to prove a point, which really isn't proving anything.

My friends are my friends because we share similiar likes and dislikes, views on certains topics, etc, not because we share skin tone or do not share skin tone.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
1). No offense but the abusive husband analogy is just not a good one and is not working so let's let it go.

I'm not offended. I didn't come up with the analogy, but it kept being used to tell me why my argument was wrong. Frankly, I think I've done a good job showing why that analogy doesn't work, and in fact, lends support to my side of the discussion. So, I think it's working well! But by all means, I think it's served its' purpose.

Quote:

2). I wasn't specifically referring to you at all with my post that you quoted. However, I think your last post is doing exactly what I was saying.








Care to elaborate? Remember, you're talking about institutionalized racism, and I'm probably not. No, I don't think black people can easily climb out of the hole caused by white privledge without white people actively addressing it in regards to glass celings and educational gaps (with of course, partipation of minorities). But sure as taxes, we can all teach our children not to prejudiced. And, oh boy, do I not understand the world we live in that would argue otherwise.

Quote:

3). Did you read the link I posted?








I did, but to be honest, I didn't really 'get' why you were posting it. I really do 'get' the concept of institutionalized racism (and, in the case of Katrina, class discrimination). And as you aptly pointed out earlier, I think I'm talking about more personalised responsibility for teaching our kids to be tolerant (I hate that word, but I've run out of alternatives).

Remember that the OP asked how to teach our kids not to be racist, and was responded to with statements about racism solely being a white person's responsibility - to which I'm disagreeing. We ALL have a responsibility to raise our kids right. It's not a race thing. It's the moral thing to do. All major religions teach tolerance (although may not practice it). That doesn't absolve white people from talking about race, or dealing with institutionalized racism. So, I'm still sitting here pretty confused.

I'm asking you to tell me directly why only white people are responsible for teaching about diversity of colors (and races, sexes, and sexual orientations), in a world which is far more than just black and white?

Because even as white people continue to seek to create a more level playing field, if our goal is true multiculturalism, then EVERYONE has to learn to accept the wide variety of people who live in this beautiful world. Not just white people (as evidenced by issues highlighted by the AA vs. Korean gang thing).

Quote:

4). It's never good when I start responding with a list. :LOL







:
I love it. So easy to respond to!


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*

Quote:

Originally Posted by white_feather
Again, regardless of *********** --
There *is* no regardless. You can not separate racism from ***********, if you attempt to then it is impossible to really be anti-racist.

Way to take phrase WAY out of context and run away with it. I have never argued anything different from what you said in your post, except to respond to a few people that overtly and covertly stated that ONLY white people have a responsibility to teach thier kids to be tolerant.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I guess, for myself, I do turn a blind eye when we are hurt by racism. Like when we go to the playground and the mothers pull their children away from us and most times just leave. Or the time we went to the beach and within an hour, everyone was gone. Or when we go to the grocery and the baggers argue about who is going to bag our groceries and I usually end up doing it myself.
My children see all of this and worse. And yet I continue to teach them to treat everyone as human beings first and foremost.
Other people of color never react/act that way towards us.

Ugh. That's just plain awful.

Perhaps where we live has something to do with our world view. I happen to live in one of bluest areas of a blue state (meaning very democratic and liberal). Racism exists here, but it simply is not this overt. Most white people I know would never engage in such horrendous behavior -- in fact, most people in general I know wouldn't. But, we have a significant achievement gap in the schools, so much so that our local schools failed the No Child Left Behind Standards this year. And, I know that AA's do get pulled over for spurious reasons on our roads. But we do have true issues in regards to how everyone treats everyone -- and I'm not kidding about the black vs. korean thing. It's a big problem. So is tolerance of homosexuality -- which isn't racism, generally, but still an issue of acceptance.

So, I can see that because of your world view, racisim does look like a problem of solely white people. And, because of my experience where a whole hodgepodge of cultures are trying to live together, I can clearly see where this is an issue we all have to address, and where it doesn't make any sense at all to only leave it to white people (how would it address the gang fights between blacks and koreans?) that leave the city unsafe for everyone?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I am not white, but do think it does/would help by teaching children that all people are human beings and setting up certain standards of behavior that is extended to every and all human beings. But maybe that is because I am on the bottom,

I agree that teaching our children that all people are human beings worthy of dignity and respect is the place to start. That is what I strive to teach my kids. I'm anglo.

Quote:

Like when we go to the playground and the mothers pull their children away from us and most times just leave. Or the time we went to the beach and within an hour, everyone was gone. Or when we go to the grocery and the baggers argue about who is going to bag our groceries and I usually end up doing it myself.
I'm so sorry for your experiences. I know that things like this happen -- I've seen it happen first hand and I've heard stories from friends. I think that some white people really don't realize how much racism still exist in our society or how subtle it can be. I find it bizarre when white parents say that they don't talk to their young children about racism because they want them to only know about the good in the world until they are older. That is a luxury that only white people have -- children of color learn about racism when they are quite young.

One of the ways I try to combat racism is just to smile and say 'Hi.' I didn't mention before on this thread because I feared that I would get slammed -- it sounds so small and insignificant. It's one of my little ways of trying to override the the kind of experiences that MITB has had.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Choosing not to tell your child about racism is an exercise of white privilege.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Choosing not to tell your child about racism is an exercise of white privilege.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda On the Move*
I find it bizarre when white parents say that they don't talk to their young children about racism because they want them to only know about the good in the world until they are older. That is a luxury that only white people have -- children of color learn about racism when they are quite young.

Ok. It looks like I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation, because I'm starting to feel frustrated, and angry . . . and that's not going to be productive.

Look . . .

There are A LOT of things I don't tell my children about the lived experiences of other children.

I don't tell them of the countless children orphaned in Africa.

I don't tell them of the genocide of infant girls in China.

I don't tell them about the hundreds of thousands of children who are starving in our country and around the world.

I don't tell them of the children who lost their homes, parents, and siblings in the year's latest natural disasters.

I don't tell them of the many in our own area who don't have a home, or don't have their own toys, or clothes.

I don't tell them of children who are abused, beaten, neglected, or sexually assaulted.

I don't discuss child labor with my 5 year old.

I don't tell them about the horrors of infant circumcision or female genital mutilation.

We don't discuss the fact that our country is at war, or that we have family on the front lines.

We don't discuss the fact that there are children who are directly suffering because of the war in Iraq.

We don't talk about the fact that our planet is dying, our government causes suffering.

We don't talk about the fact that the animals we eat lived, short miserable lives on feedlots.

We don't talk about the children who are dying of diseases both acquired and genetic.

And . . . I defy either of you to find me a developmental psychologist that thinks it IS a good idea to talk about these things with a preschooler.

Does that mean I'm privledged? That I'm all about luxury? Perhaps, but I think it's more about basic human rights than privilege. Are basic human rights privileges? Or just rights that not all people have access to? Are basic human rights luxuries?

Just because countless children suffer in this world, doesn't mean that I have to make my children suffer by default. In fact, I believe that I can do a better service to this world by raising children with a foundation that makes them feel safe and secure, and discussing difficult topics at a time when they are more likely to handle it intellectually and emotionally, than they can now. Otherwise, I'd be instilling values of fear, anger, and a sense of unsafety that I don't believe gives kids a solid foundation. Yes, countless children are being raised without this solid foundation. But, I'd rather see them given a better foundation, then me equalize things by having my own children suffer unnecessarily.

And if that's makes me bizarre, then so be it.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

I would also find it EXTREMELY harmful for a parent of a preschooler or a child UNDER the age of 7 or 8 to discuss race and racism with their child. Most children start noticing differences in skin color and questioning it around 7 or 8 years old. THIS is when the discussion should start to become focused.

Just as I do not see murder to be a appropriate topic for a 4 or 5 year old.

White Feather, I agree with you on this one!


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Sometimes children deal with adults. Sometimes children hear things directed at them by adults. Comments, insults, racial epithets. If you have no concerns that someone is going to say any of these very ugly things to your child before you get a chance to reasonably discuss these concepts with them you are fortunate and should recognize that fact. If terminal illness, death, war, poverty, physical or mental disabilities have not touched your childs life in such a way that you get to choose when to address those issues with them... you are fortunate and you should simply recognize that fact.

As an aside... I recently moved to NY. I live about two blocks from the WTC site. When we walked by the site one day I struggled with what to tell my daughter. That was a luxury.... because the parents of thousands of children didn't get to decide when and how to tell their children about that terrible day. Their kids were in the middle of it and witnessed the whole thing.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
I would also find it EXTREMELY harmful for a parent of a preschooler or a child UNDER the age of 7 or 8 to discuss race and racism with their child. Most children start noticing differences in skin color and questioning it around 7 or 8 years old. THIS is when the discussion should start to become focused.

I guess, I could find some sense in that. When my children were 3 yrs old, we were walking and a pick-up truck drove by and four white boys threw rocks and beer cans at us and called us some very nasty names. My head was bleeding and was growing some ugly goose eggs. I did not tell my crying children that it was racism. I did tell them that it was a very cruel and inhumane action.
I guess my children, so far, have been lucky to not ask why those things do not happen to white children as often as they happen to non-white children.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
I would also find it EXTREMELY harmful for a parent of a preschooler or a child UNDER the age of 7 or 8 to discuss race and racism with their child. Most children start noticing differences in skin color and questioning it around 7 or 8 years old. THIS is when the discussion should start to become focused.

That's interesting. My dd is 3.5, and has recently started noticing different skin colors. At this point when she says, "Mommy, that person is a different color!", I just say, "That's right, people come in all sizes and colors, but we're all the same under our skin." I don't think anyone is arguing that discussions shouldn't be kept age-appropriate.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

My family is from the south, and there is, unfortunately, a lot of racism there. My dh's family is bad, also. I guess I was lucky, we moved around so much when I was growing up, I wasn't isolated. As a white girl, there were a few times that I found myself the minority in a classroom (this happened in San Diego, when there were mostly hispanic children). So, I grew up and became friends with all kinds of children. My mother was also careful about trying to teach me not to see people's outsides, but to judge them by what kind of person they were.

It was also taught that we didn't judge people if they were short/tall, skinny/fat so on and so forth. I think these lessons are just as important.

My husband's great-grandfather immigrated from Syria, and so he is very dark. He doesn't look middle-eastern, just extremely tan (and is sometimes mistaken as Hispanic, though we have a middle-eastern surname). One of my boys took after him and is also very dark. My stepson is tan-complected. My youngest is pale, pale, pale, toe-headed with blue eyes. I see it as a blessing. It can all start at home, to accept people no matter what their skin color!


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I guess, I could find some sense in that. When my children were 3 yrs old, we were walking and a pick-up truck drove by and four white boys threw rocks and beer cans at us and called us some very nasty names. My head was bleeding and was growing some ugly goose eggs. I did not tell my crying children that it was racism. I did tell them that it was a very cruel and inhumane action.
I guess my children, so far, have been lucky to not ask why those things do not happen to white children as often as they happen to non-white children.






























I can't imagine what something like that must feel like. I can't grasp that this stuff really happens. WTF is wrong with people? MamaInTheBoonies, I am so sorry that this happened to you and your dc. I'm sick in my stomach just thinking about it.

As far as telling ds about racism and such, I think that for any heavy, involved or emotionally loaded subject there is a time and a place for everything. Every child is different. When I was 3 or 4 my best friend Marjorie was AA. I knew there was something different about her, but I couldn't quite place it. Her mom would wave to me everyday when she met Marjorie at the bus stop







. It always made me feel special. And I loved them both in a very real and true way. I'm glad my mom didn't burden me with the idea of racism right then.

I DO agree that kids should learn about other's suffering as a way to step outside of themselves. I deeply believe that service to others is one of the most important things we can do to live life fully and move the world forward. I just think they need to be an age where they can act on the knowledge I give them. Instead of saying, there are people who don't like others based on their color and leave it at that - I want to be able to add to that - what can we do about it? and have a discussion.

That being said, ds is only 2. I'm not sure what age that will be. As I said every kid is diff. Maybe for my ds it will 4 or maybe 6 - I don't know. I do know that what I do now is incorporate books showing kids of different races into our reading repertoire - so that he sees images of AA, Asian, Latino etc. kids and it becomes his norm. There are some really cute, funny, touching books out there showing different people - other than white. Not a ton, but they do exist.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

White Feather, you are the only poster here on this thread who consistently makes me nod my head in agreement. I agree with everything you say, absolutely the most with the fact that a 4-5 year old doesn't even need to know about bad things. Why would parents who are responsible enough to turn off the t.v. during a rape or fight scene when dc wanders out of the play room, actively seek out real horrors to discuss with their kids? I was puzzled when people were asking how to discuss Katrina with their 3/4 year olds. I feel like, ds is 4 and he is totally oblivious to any world events. Who has these 3 year olds that actively seek out answers to questions about world tragedies?

And as for racism, my ds has played with african american kids, mexican kids, oriental kids, and never even seemed to notice there is a difference in skin tone between them. The only thing that even seemed to interest him was the mexican kids switching between spanish and english, which allowed ds to practice some of what he's picked up on Dora. I would say maybe my kid is just not inquisitive, I'm not the type to kid myself and think ds is a prodigy, but he is very curious, and seems as smart as a four year old should be. He asked me a couple weeks ago why a man was in a wheelchair, and I told him the chair was so he could move around, because for whatever reason he wasn't able to walk or was too uncomfortable to walk on his legs like us. I pointed out how there were wheelchair ramps and doors that opened automatically because there are a lot of people who use wheelchairs. I didn't tell him about crushed spines. He seemed to accept my answer. When he does ask me about why Timmy or whoever has curly black hair I will be just as straight forward. Kids just want a quick answer. They are a heck of alot smarter than people give them credit for.

And man does the notion that white people are solely responsible for racism make me steam. I have been discriminated against too many times to count. I have been ignored at the counter because of my blond hair, as people pushed me out of the way in Mexico City. I have feared for my life because of my glaring whiteness in riots in Orlando and Dallas. I have stepped onto a Greyhound bus in Alabama and had people throw things at me and yell at me to take the next bus, because I was white. My girlfriend lived in Kuwait, and she is also very white, and she was a victim of much racism. Everybody thought she was a Russian hooker. They threw things at her too.
Was there something I could have done in those situations to fix it? Was I responsible for the racism? No, I was simply trying to live my life, and was in fact a victim of racism. Everybody is responsible for it. For someone to say otherwise makes me suspect that person has never been in any of the above situations. Those situations didn't make me hate other races, I understand the anger behind their behavior, but it sure allowed me to let go of the guilt I carried around in my heart for the behaviors of my forefathers. I have nothing to do with what my forefathers did. But the people that shoved me and called me honky or skinny white ----- sure have everything to do with what they did.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Okay... Fine. You are protecting your children from the ugliness in the world. You are doing your best to raise your children free of racism. Good. But that is not anti-racist. It's just simply not-racist. It's not the same.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Do you turn off the tv when a rape scene comes on, or two men are beating up a woman, and your dc is in the room? I bet you do, even though violence to women is also a very real issue.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I mention about the AA saying "sp*c" simply because that is the most resent racism my children have seen. It was a mater of relevance. My kids didn't ever hear that term until they heard it from an AA mouth. I had to counter act that. My son (11 on the 16th) did question it! and with reference to the Civil rights movement. He did ask isn't that why we had the Civil rights movement? And how can someone that had to fight for rights feel that way towards another person.

I have had various things in my life that have made me question how I was taught about racism. My parents are racist. Not as racist as their parents. They did/do try to change their views, but the older I get I notice how they have done things it is only one color. They have held onto other prejudice.

My first memories were of being the only white family in a southern black neighborhood. Then I was "privilege" to move to a white neighborhood (we were the poorest in the neighborhood aka the trash in the neighborhood). Then I moved back to a majority AA neighborhood. I gratitude from a school that was approx. 95% black. So I got to see "privilege" and "underprivileged". I my high school there were issue and one of the most profound moments I had that made me see we need to change how we teach being good to each other was in speech class. We had an AA get up and say "I hate all white people." It really made me think about why she would say that. Then how my classmates reacted to her made me rethink the flow of racism. They were supportive of me and asker her how she would have felt if I got up and made that declaration and said her hateful words. They question and challenged her own prejudice.

My ex-bil is black. He could tell you some stories about how his family treated my sister, just because she was white. He jokes about his parents would rather him date and marry a heroine addict than a white girl. His family is now not happy that he is dating a Mexican with African roots. And his family has asked him why can he ever date a normal black. He is accused of being a "traitor" to his race.

My sil is Japanese. She uses the phrase "Jew'ed down". UGH!! I did challenge her on this.

My oldest child has see other issues and we approach them as they come. We use T.V. and Books as starting points for discussion. I tell my kids it is ok not to like people but if the only reason you do not like a person is because of how they look then it is wrong.

I don't disagree that whites are racist, but it only fixes a small part of the problem if we just tell/teach white people that have to treat AA nicely? It doesn't teach ALL people how to behave to others. Just addressing one issue doesn't address teaching respect for all the different "isms". It doesn't teach white people to teach other people right.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*









Okay... Fine. You are protecting your children from the ugliness in the world. You are doing your best to raise your children free of racism. Good. But that is not anti-racist. It's just simply not-racist. It's not the same.


This is like a deprogramming Kama. It takes a loooooooooot of work. I get angry too, especially since I don't have the luxury of pretending that just because my kids play with lots of different kids that I am teaching them to not be racist. I have experienced people leaving the playground many times when my children and I arrive. I even remember a little 4 year old white girl complaining (within earshot of my family and I) that she was afraid of my then 20 month old son who was nowhere near her. Her father said, "it's ok honey" and then eyed us like he would pounce on us if we dared to sneeze.

I doubt her father thought he was a racist. After all, when my white husband showed up he loosened up a bit....just a bit.

Also that bit about children not seeing color till seven or eight is unbelievably incorrect. Maybe that is the case for children who don't see anyone who doesn't look like them, but in terms of development children actually start to notice these things around 3 or 4. That is what my textbooks say. I have noticed it to be true with my own work with children and in my own house as well.

Also, a white person experiencing discrimination because they have white skin is NOT anywhere near the same as being a person of color and experiencing racism on a daily basis REGARDLESS of where you go. You still have the option of retreating to the safety of white havens, you still have the entire power structure of this country built to benefit you as a member of the superior group. POC, especially black people who are at the very bottom of the American racial hierarchy, do not have that option, period. To try to compare occasional experiences of discrimination, to having to be a POC in a racist society is woefully ignorant and insensitive at best.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*
Do you turn off the tv when a rape scene comes on, or two men are beating up a woman, and your dc is in the room? I bet you do, even though violence to women is also a very real issue.

Unfortunately, we can't turn off racism in our society Aden's Mom. Not even white people have that luxury. It's everywhere.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

I don't disagree that whites are racist, but it only fixes a small part of the problem if we just tell/teach white people that have to treat AA nicely? It doesn't teach ALL people how to behave to others. Just addressing one issue doesn't address teaching respect for all the different "isms". It doesn't teach white people to teach other people right.


Racism is primarily about power. It is not just about having to hear bad things sometimes or even often. I think the main problem here is that many people are trying to address racism without actually understanding what it is.

Let me ask. Did you ever figure out why your friend made that comment about hating white people?

Kama I'm really wishing we had finished that anti-racism project we had started on eons ago.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
Kama I'm really wishing we had finished that anti-racism project we had started on eons ago.

My recollection is that it went about like this is going.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*
And man does the notion that white people are solely responsible for racism make me steam. I have been discriminated against too many times to count. I have been ignored at the counter because of my blond hair, as people pushed me out of the way in Mexico City. I have feared for my life because of my glaring whiteness in riots in Orlando and Dallas. I have stepped onto a Greyhound bus in Alabama and had people throw things at me and yell at me to take the next bus, because I was white. My girlfriend lived in Kuwait, and she is also very white, and she was a victim of much racism. Everybody thought she was a Russian hooker. They threw things at her too.

Your post reminded me of when we were studing Marco Polo. One of the books talked about how Asian/Chinese of the time were not always nice to travelers/traders because of the thought less of them because they did not believe or do things the way they did. It lead of to another discuss about how to treat each other and how because people did things differently didn't make them bad or (as in American Indians) savages.

I do think there is age appropriate on how to discuss these topic. When 9-11 happen we turned off our TV because it disturbed my children. I have don't it with Katrina. This doesn't mean we don't discuss it but in small chuncks to what the kids can understand.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

I think I understand what racism is. Do you only define racism as when white people screw with other races?
And you didn't answer my question, do you turn off the t.v. when something bad happens, or do you leave it on and turn to your four year old to discuss that sometimes men beat the crap out of women? I'm not trying to "turn off" racism. I am not your typical privileged white chick. I've been deep into the deep of the bad side of town, and third world areas. I understand racism full well because I've lived it. And the "not even white people" crack doesn't make sense to me.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
Racism is primarily about power. It is not just about having to hear bad things sometimes or even often. I think the main problem here is that many people are trying to address racism without actually understanding what it is.

Let me ask. Did you ever figure out why your friend made that comment about hating white people?

Kama I'm really wishing we had finished that anti-racism project we had started on eons ago.

First off she wasn't a friend. I don't let friends treat me badly.

It was not just one reason there was many. Yes, rasicm against her was a part of it. Being spiteful and vendictive was another part of it. She discovered that I am really talented in math (she assumed this was solely becasue of white privlage) and because of our Algerbra teacher putting me up at the board at the same time as her she got embarrassed about her math abilites (ignoring that she was an awsome at grammar type stuff). She swears that it was the white math teacher did this on purpose to embarrass the black kids. Well he always pulled people up like he had us and I was the only white kid in both classes so unless they never called on me it was going to happen. I can also sit here and wonder if in hind sight some of her issues were not related to PPD. I do wonder this know since I have had PPD (this was in 90-91 PPD wasn't recognized). Placing blame on other people when self responciblity plays a part. One of the things she said in her speach was that white men were the cause of her pregnancy. One of the people in the class point out that everyone in the room was just as poor as she was and they weren't dropping their pants and getting knocked up (It was not nice it was crass but the class at that point to very heated.)


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

adensmom... I don't know you so maybe you talk like this to people all the time. I find your tone toward me aggressive and meanspirited. I don't know why you are reacting negatively to me. Please watch your attacking tone. It does not help.

I use the widely accepted definition of racism=racial prejudice+power. So no, not just when "white people screw with other races" but when the dominant race creates an environment in which their values, culture and behavior are the only ones valued. Where they create an artificial 'norm' that is unattainable to members of other races.

I assumed your question about whether I let my five year old daughter watch violence for entertainment was rhetorical so I ignored it. The answer is: No, I do not. On the occasions that she has been unexpectedly exposed to things like that I change it away and then, yes... I do discuss with her that sometimes people are terrible and do violent things. I tend to avoid phrases like "beat the crap out of" in this conversations, however.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*
And you didn't answer my question, do you turn off the t.v. when something bad happens, or do you leave it on and turn to your four year old to discuss that sometimes men beat the crap out of women?

This is what I meant earlier about diversion. Men beating women has nothing to do with racism.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
Also, a white person experiencing discrimination because they have white skin is NOT anywhere near the same as being a person of color and experiencing racism on a daily basis REGARDLESS of where you go. You still have the option of retreating to the safety of white havens, you still have the entire power structure of this country built to benefit you as a member of the superior group. POC, especially black people who are at the very bottom of the American racial hierarchy, do not have that option, period. To try to compare occasional experiences of discrimination, to having to be a POC in a racist society is woefully ignorant and insensitive at best.

I will totally agree with that. I'm not comparing my situation to the reality of being of african american or middle eastern descent or whatever. I do realize that my life is easier simply because I was born a white person. I am only saying that in my situations, I was not the instigator of the racial conflict. Do I deserve to be treated that way because I have the audacity to be white? I think blaming problems on white people is a cop out. I don't see the huge mexican population in my area getting all worked up about how to teach their kids not to gang up on the white kids.
This was my original point, is that racism is natural, people don't like people that are different. They don't, they never will. If you think you're not racist it's because you've never been in a situation where you were a minority. The best we can do is not hurt each other, loving one another is an unrealistic fantasy.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

...is that racism is natural, people don't like people that are different. They don't, they never will. If you think you're not racist it's because you've never been in a situation where you were a minority.
Racism is not natural, it is taught.
I am a minority and have been in many aweful situations. I will never teach my children that it is okay to hurt other human beings. I will never teach my children to look away when something bad is happening, but to take the safest possible action to stop it.

I cannot be racist. I have no power. No authority.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:

Also that bit about children not seeing color till seven or eight is unbelievably incorrect. Maybe that is the case for children who don't see anyone who doesn't look like them, but in terms of development children actually start to notice these things around 3 or 4. That is what my textbooks say. I have noticed it to be true with my own work with children and in my own house as well.
Now, did I say COLOR? I meant RACE. There is a HUGE difference. Of course Isa sees COLOR for goodness sake, but, if is FACT that children do not notice RACE until 7 or 8. Of course they notice color. Good grief!


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Again, the way to combat racism is to teach our children to respect others, ALL others, not based on skin color, height, weight, intelligence, social class, but because they are fellow humans with thoughts, feelings, and emotions.

THIS is what we teach our children. If this is not racist instead of anti-racist, well, there ya go.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I had a huge reply typed out earlier and my computer froze up when I submitted it.










This conversation *is* getting really frustrating.

I can't recall all of major points now because it was an hour ago.

Anyway, white_feather, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that all families should be teaching their children to not be racist. I'm saying it is *different* when it comes to white families and it is more important/urgent that they teach this.

Also, I *have* taught my children about everything you listed. I don't say "It's the end of the world and we're gonna blow." I talk about global warming, what caused it, how the earth has been damaged/polluted. What we can do to help stop it and not contribute to it.

I don't tell them that children and being beaten and sexually assaulted as we speak. I talk to them about safety and tell them to be careful and even if someone seems nice sometimes there are people who want to hurt others, even children.

And absolutely we feel thankful that we have food to eat and we know there are people and children with little or no food to eat around the world. And we try to help when we can by donating money or canned food.

A long time ago I wanted to protect my children to the point that they'd never have to know about anything bad. They are going to know about it all eventually though so I feel that it's best if I can tell them in the most gentle way, what they're ready for and what won't be too hard for them to understand or accept. I also realized that...wow...imagine they are ten or twelve years old and then suddenly all at once find out all the horrors of the world. That could be quite a blow and really painful. So, tellling them things as they come up and what they are ready to here is what I feel works best for my family and feels right to us.

Just do realize that it is a privilege that you are so far removed from any of that that you can pretend w/them that it doesn't even exist. I don't mean that harshly...I just can't figure out how else to put it. There have been times over the years when we barely had anything to eat. We really never have to worry about that now but it kind of hurts to think of this mother pretending that that doesn't even exist because wow, what a horror for her children to have to even hear about people being poor enough to not have food.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I mention about the AA saying "sp*c" simply because that is the most resent racism my children have seen. It was a mater of relevance. My kids didn't ever hear that term until they heard it from an AA mouth. I had to counter act that. My son (11 on the 16th) did question it! and with reference to the Civil rights movement. He did ask isn't that why we had the Civil rights movement? And how can someone that had to fight for rights feel that way towards another person.

And how did you respond because that is a racist sentiment, that black people must be held to a higher standard because they had to fight discrimmination. That is how I read your post and I'm not sure if you're seeing how that is racist that you brought up the person's race and expect something different from them simply because of their race.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

This is the way racial discussions always go. There can be no rational discussion about it because emotion always outweighs rationality. I am not teaching my child to hurt other people, he won't even squish an ant because they are in his words "too small." I am also not going to instill in him a sense of guilt for being born a white male, which admittedly is a very easy thing to be. I am going to let him decide who he wants to like and dislike. And as I said before, the people he chooses to dislike will most likely just be jerks, no matter what color they are. I'm sorry if I come across as too aggressive, I am a very naturally aggressive person, and being in the situations that I've been in have only made it a more deep rooted part of my personality. I am thankful for my aggression, it makes my life as a woman much easier than if I were a passive person. I am, however, not trying to be mean spirited. But if I examine my personality I would probably find that I do care less about being "nice" than the average woman.
I am sorry that the inbred hillbillies that run amok and hurt you and your kids do those things. It is a disgusting thing to do. Nobody wants to see other human beings get hurt, unless they are psychopathic.
I'm done with this thread, obviously I'm only making people angry and hurting feelings, so I'll just let myself out.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Wait, adensmom, who are you responding to? I don't believe any of my post was directed at you at all.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Adensmom,
You have put nicely what my emotions are not permitting me to say. Thank you.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I did want to add...for those who say they haven't been exposed to racism at all I have a hard time believing that. I've actually found, as a white person, when I'm around all white people their little jewels of hate start showing the most. So, is everyone who thinks they haven't been exposed to it telling me they've never heard anyone talking about "those damn Mexicans" or "learn to speak English" or anything like that at all? Tell me how would your parents react if you had married a black man? How would your dp or dh react if your daughter married an Indian man (and I mean from India)? Or like Kama said do you feel fearful around certain races?

I don't believe that anyone has not been exposed to racism and hate. Just because it's subtle doesn't mean it's any less hurtful. Honestly I think the subtle is all the more dangerous.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

I didn't say that did I MAN?

I'm surrounded by racist remarks. My family, friends, previous co-workers, we all white, save but two. The remarks you commented on and many more were heard almost daily. It was enough to drive a person insane.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
I'm surrounded by racist remarks. My family, friends, previous co-workers, we all white, save but two. The remarks you commented on and many more were heard almost daily. It was enough to drive a person insane.

What do you do when you hear these kind of remarks?


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

I wasn't responding to you Mamaallnatural. Another poster felt I was too aggressive and somewhat mean spirited.
And also, Mama, I agree that everyone has been exposed to racism. At least in America. Theres just too many races to not have been exposed to some sort.
But I do have a funny story, when I was 19 I was asking my dad what he would do if I came home with an african american guy, and he said "long as he's not wearing a Raiders jacket, s' okay with me" (guess he didn't like the Raiders) so then I asked what about a mexican guy, and my dad looked at me and said "I wouldn't care if you came home with a girlfriend, as long as she was nice to you. You can date anybody you want, but they'd better be good people." I took that to heart, and when ds asks me the same questions, I will have the same answer.
And Mamafromtheboonies, my heart aches for you about your story. I would personally strangle those morons for you if I could. I can't imagine how awful it was for you to have that happen.
I know I said I'd let myself out but I didn't want Mamaallnatural to think I was leaving because of her.


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
What do you do when you hear these kind of remarks?

I stop it. I become the hated person in the room and I stop it. I call people on their bull, whether they think it is common (like the phrase "jewing down") or not. It is unacceptable and I am not satisfied with leaving the room, I am driven to stop the comment and educate the persons in the room. It disgists me to no end.

Have my children been around family who choose to make these comments, no, because I knew how these persons were and they are not allowed near my children.


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
I stop it. I become the hated person in the room and I stop it. I call people on their bull, whether they think it is common (like the phrase "jewing down") or not. It is unacceptable and I am not satisfied with leaving the room, I am driven to stop the comment and educate the persons in the room. It disgists me to no end.

Have my children been around family who choose to make these comments, no, because I knew how these persons were and they are not allowed near my children.

I do this too. I recently got in a huge argument with a good friend of mine because he was saying extremely stupid things about mexicans. "They should go home" and on and on. And I told him that if everybody in this country went "home" the only people left would be the native americans. I also told him "listen up Irish boy, wasn't too long ago that the Irish were the disliked ones in this country. It's called assimilation, every race has to do it, and it takes awhile for it to happen. Your comments are lame and narrow minded." It actually became a yelling match that dh had to break up. I am not one bit scared to speak up when someone, or even everyone in the room is saying something I disagree with. The worst they can do is kick me out.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Jumping back into the realm of the practical, here are some things that I did when I was teaching and have continued doing with my own children

- have books, puzzles, babies, music etc that represent all different colors. Make sure they are dressed in "normal" clothing, and not just "traditional" dress. If you eat foods from different cultures, include the empties in your play kitchen.

- beware of token multiculturalism- not all children from Holland wear wooden shoes, not all people in Hawaii wear leis and grass skirts, not all people in China ride in rickshaws, etc, etc. This especially seems to rear its ugly head when studying other countries. Instead of saying "People from China eat with chopsticks" you can say "Some people from China eat with chopsticks." Remember- all generalizations are bad. :LOL

- many art companies make "multicultural" paper, crayons, and clay in various people colors
http://www.ssww.com/store/product/sku=SC470/
for example. This is a really natural, easy way to let your child "soak in" the idea that there are many beautiful shades of skin out there. I especially like the differently colored people shapes kids can decorate

- be proactive about the colors brown and black. I know this sounds crazy, but try making some brown playdough and listen to what your kids might say- we did this is my classroom, and they said "it looks like poop" and "it's dirty". Think of how hurtful this can be. Talk about all the wonderful things in the world that are brown and black- chocolate and cinnamon and mud to squish in and people

- listen for teachable moments rather than creating lessons. For example, if your child makes a comment about someone with brown skin being dirty, you could have a discussion about whether or not washing changes the color of your skin. After 9-11 we realized our then 3 year old had been seeing too much TV when he pointed to someone with a beard and said "He's in the Taliban". So, we first ascertained that he had no clue what the Taliban was, and then talked about how not every one with a beard was from the Taliban.

- Seriously, check these books out
Roots & Wings Revised: Affirming Culture in Early Childhood Programs by Stacey York
http://www.redleafpress.org/productd...cfm?SKU=406701

Anti-Bias Curriculum by Louise Sparks Dermott

Here is a web site with tons of links
http://home.sprintmail.com/~peggyriehl/prmulti.htm

And here is one of my favorites, although I really do think we need to move beyond "tolerence"
http://www.tolerance.org/teach/

Honestly, for little kids (I'm talking toddler/preschool/kindergarten) I have found it best to be meet them where they are. In other words, rather than reading about Martin Luther King Jr and Cesar Chavez, read books that have pictures of kids of different races playing together in situations your child is likely to encounter. Its not that the other stuff isn't important, but small children are very egocentric and tend to learn from the inside out. Rather than creating a "lesson" expose them to all sorts of different people (through books, music, etc if you can't in real life) and deal with things as they come up. It's important that interactions are natural, through playgroups, preschool, playground experiences, etc, and not forced (the whole "I'm going to make friends with some African Americans scenario described before)

Anyway, that's my take as an early childhood person. For what it's worth.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I was one my way to becoming a neurosurgeon. What happened?
I went to college in a predominantly white town. everyone in power was white.
1. CPS called on me for breastfeeding my newborn
2. Charged with educational neglect because I had brought my dd to the hospital with me and had a cesarean against my will. I had no one to bring my dd to school. Yes, I called and told the school that I would be bringing my dd with me and that she would be missing school.
In the same school 18 white children had missed more days of school than my child did, and they had no medical reasons/excuses. they were never charged nor even investigated.
I went to trial.
3. My dd was sexually assaulted by a white girl in her classroom. When she called for help, the teacher told her to be quiet and quit disrupting the class. As soon as I found out, I brought my dd to the ER and had them call the police. Once, again, I was investigated by CPS, while the white girl who assaulted my child never even got talked to, nor was her family ever investigated.

I had to quit college because no one would hire me and I didn't have enough financial aid to get us through. Even though I qualified for a $50,000 grant, the college would not let me have it because I was Native American and they had a strict policy of cutting off the maximum aid at $9,600, no matter what.

Now, I am back in the city looking for work for over two years.
When I go to an interview, the white employers shrink back in fear. They never hire me.
My background check now shows 3 hits for CPS, so I will never be able to work with children or the elderly, as it is considered I might be a danger to them.

So, suggesting that ending racism is my responsibility is BS. That is the same as telling me it is my fault that ppl react in fear just upon sight of me, or purposely hurt me and my children because of our skin color.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

No, fishymama I was not referring to you. I heard one or two others in the thread express that they felt lucky that hadn't been exposed to racism.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
What do you do when you hear these kind of remarks?

But,







:


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

I don't get the argument about not wanting to teach your child about racism when they're small. This thread is getting so nitpicky and there are arguments against the extreme. What I mean by that is: Who really shows their 4 yo a picture of a lynching or tells them of the ugliness that happens because of racism? Not most people. Most mentally balanced mamas would not do that. To suggest that an anti racist mother would, is ridiculous and splitting hairs against an extreme stance. Please!









If you're a vegetarian and you'd like to impart animal rights ideals to your 8 yo child - do you bring them to the PETA website and download video of pigs being led from a trailer to the slaughterhouse, with the handler kicking and abusing them the whole way? NOOOO. You teach them compassion, understanding and empathy for all animals. That's where you start. That's anti animal cruelty.

No one's suggesting that we traumatize our children to teach them to be part of the solution (anti racism). I don't feel it's really worth arguing about. We're a nfl forum here. Most of us practice, in some form, gentle discipline. Why would anyone in their right mind suggest that you don't put your kid in time out - but we can tell them they are systematically raping and slaughtering women and children in Africa?.... and oh by the way honey, would you like carrots or raisins for snack?

What most people are talking about appears, at least to me, that you need to start young. Telling your children what you want them to do, not what you want them to avoid. By saying you think a child should be taught against racism at 3 - 4 - 5 -6 is NOT traumatizing them,
- it's reading the books with AA heroes,
-it's taking your child to the Chinese New Year Festival and celebrating their culture,
-it's modeling behavior that speaks to your child about how you REALLY feel,
-it's about giving them simple, but honest explanations when directly confronted with a racist situation.
It's not dwelling on the negative. Why even think that? Teaching children about a complicated issue doesn't have to be negative - if you don't come from that place yourself. If we can get our kids to sleep gently and nurse until they 4 then I think the mamas here at mdc can figure a way to teach their kids to value all people, without bringing them to the scene of a hate crime.

I can completely see the point of mamas getting upset at the thought of someone suggesting they tell their children the world can be a dark place. But that's not the vibe I'm getting from here. What the real essence of the argument for being "anti racism", rather than just "not a racist", is that you are PROACTIVE in teaching your child all aspects of embracing another's differences - instead of not addressing it all.

To suggest otherwise is using an extreme to justify doing nothing about a problem that exists....Racism.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you annettmarie! That reminds me that I want to make sure DD's kinder has the 'people-colored' crayons. (I am getting the name wrong, but that's close.)


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Jumping back into the realm of the practical, here are some things that I did when I was teaching and have continued doing with my own children

- have books, puzzles, babies, music etc that represent all different colors. Make sure they are dressed in "normal" clothing, and not just "traditional" dress. If you eat foods from different cultures, include the empties in your play kitchen.

- beware of token multiculturalism- not all children from Holland wear wooden shoes, not all people in Hawaii wear leis and grass skirts, not all people in China ride in rickshaws, etc, etc. This especially seems to rear its ugly head when studying other countries. Instead of saying "People from China eat with chopsticks" you can say "Some people from China eat with chopsticks." Remember- all generalizations are bad. :LOL

- many art companies make "multicultural" paper, crayons, and clay in various people colors
http://www.ssww.com/store/product/sku=SC470/
for example. This is a really natural, easy way to let your child "soak in" the idea that there are many beautiful shades of skin out there. I especially like the differently colored people shapes kids can decorate

- be proactive about the colors brown and black. I know this sounds crazy, but try making some brown playdough and listen to what your kids might say- we did this is my classroom, and they said "it looks like poop" and "it's dirty". Think of how hurtful this can be. Talk about all the wonderful things in the world that are brown and black- chocolate and cinnamon and mud to squish in and people

- listen for teachable moments rather than creating lessons. For example, if your child makes a comment about someone with brown skin being dirty, you could have a discussion about whether or not washing changes the color of your skin. After 9-11 we realized our then 3 year old had been seeing too much TV when he pointed to someone with a beard and said "He's in the Taliban". So, we first ascertained that he had no clue what the Taliban was, and then talked about how not every one with a beard was from the Taliban.

- Seriously, check these books out
Roots & Wings Revised: Affirming Culture in Early Childhood Programs by Stacey York
http://www.redleafpress.org/productd...cfm?SKU=406701

Anti-Bias Curriculum by Louise Sparks Dermott

Here is a web site with tons of links
http://home.sprintmail.com/~peggyriehl/prmulti.htm

And here is one of my favorites, although I really do think we need to move beyond "tolerence"
http://www.tolerance.org/teach/

Honestly, for little kids (I'm talking toddler/preschool/kindergarten) I have found it best to be meet them where they are. In other words, rather than reading about Martin Luther King Jr and Cesar Chavez, read books that have pictures of kids of different races playing together in situations your child is likely to encounter. Its not that the other stuff isn't important, but small children are very egocentric and tend to learn from the inside out. Rather than creating a "lesson" expose them to all sorts of different people (through books, music, etc if you can't in real life) and deal with things as they come up. It's important that interactions are natural, through playgroups, preschool, playground experiences, etc, and not forced (the whole "I'm going to make friends with some African Americans scenario described before)

Anyway, that's my take as an early childhood person. For what it's worth.


Mama, I love that your posts are always uplifting and inspiring, rather than argumentative. I wish I could be more like you







. Great post, loved the ideas and never thought about a lot of them!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Thank you annettmarie! That reminds me that I want to make sure DD's kinder has the 'people-colored' crayons. (I am getting the name wrong, but that's close.)

When I was teaching, one of the best teacher gifts I ever got was a huge box of people colored crayons, paper, markers, paint, clay, person-shapes, various hair-colored yarn, different colored googly eyes, and fabrics from various cultures. I was one happy teacher!

And I didn't sit them down and say "Now we will make people from Africa" or even "Make someone who looks exactly like you"- we just put them out and let them explore. If we were doing self-potraits, we would put them all out and let the kids choose.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Sorry for the X-posting.







: Fishmama already answered the question.









And a big








: to all of Jacksmama's post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
: Who really shows their 4 yo a picture of a lynching or tells them of the ugliness that happens because of racism? Not most people. Most mentally balanced mamas would not do that. To suggest that an anti racist mother would, is ridiculous and splitting hairs against an extreme stance. Please!

If you're a vegetarian and you'd like to impart animal rights ideals to your 8 yo child - do you bring them to the PETA website and download video of pigs being led from a trailer to the slaughterhouse, with the handler kicking and abusing them the whole way? NOOOO. You teach them compassion, understanding and empathy for all animals. That's where you start. That's anti animal cruelty.

No one's suggesting that we traumatize our children to teach them to be part of the solution (anti racism). I don't feel it's really worth arguing about. We're a nfl forum here. Most of us practice, in some form, gentle discipline. Why would anyone in their right mind suggest that you don't put your kid in time out - but we can tell them they are systematically raping and slaughtering women and children in Africa?.... and oh by the way honey, would you like carrots or raisins for snack?

What most people are talking about appears, at least to me, that you need to start young. Telling your children what you want them to do, not what you want them to avoid. By saying you think a child should be taught against racism at 3 - 4 - 5 -6 is NOT traumatizing them,
- it's reading the books with AA heroes,
-it's taking your child to the Chinese New Year Festival and celebrating their culture,
-it's modeling behavior that speaks to your child about how you REALLY feel,
-it's about giving them simple, but honest explanations when directly confronted with a racist situation.
It's not dwelling on the negative. Why even think that? Teaching children about a complicated issue doesn't have to be negative - if you don't come from that place yourself. If we can get our kids to sleep gently and nurse until they 4 then I think the mamas here at mdc can figure a way to teach their kids to value all people, without bringing them to the scene of a hate crime.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Totally OT, Annette where can I get those crayons?


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

offtopic:
The plural of lei is not leis. In the Hawai'ian language you do not add an 's' to words to create a plural. You say 'na' before the word. So more than one lei is "na lei" (Na sounds like nah, not nay.) Did you know they don't even sell lei in the grocery stores in NY?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*







T
The plural of lei is not leis. In the Hawai'ian language you do not add an 's' to words to create a plural. You say 'na' before the word. So more than one lei is "na lei" (Na sounds like nah, not nay.) Did you know they don't even sell lei in the grocery stores in NY?

See- that's cool- thanks for telling me!


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Crayola sells a box of 8 that they call the multi-cultural set. (They are the fat crayons.) I have found them online but haven't ever seen them in a store.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
Totally OT, Annette where can I get those crayons?

I like Discount School Supply
http://www.discountschoolsupply.com/...x=0&image1.y=0


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
I did want to add...for those who say they haven't been exposed to racism at all I have a hard time believing that. I've actually found, as a white person, when I'm around all white people their little jewels of hate start showing the most. So, is everyone who thinks they haven't been exposed to it telling me they've never heard anyone talking about "those damn Mexicans" or "learn to speak English" or anything like that at all? Tell me how would your parents react if you had married a black man? How would your dp or dh react if your daughter married an Indian man (and I mean from India)? Or like Kama said do you feel fearful around certain races?

MAN, I think I did say that I grew up in a very small, white, christian town and that I didn't experience racism there. I didn't ever hear anyone say anything about other races. I knew about racism because I saw it on TV and my parents talked about it with us. I have heard people make lots of horrible comments since moving from there. What I was trying to say was that I've never personally seen a person treating another person badly or making comments directly to a person of a race different from my own. Yeah, last time I heard someone say "those damn Mexicans", I didn't get a chance to say anything because my dh completely lost it and flipped on them. My parents wouldn't care who I married, and I certainly don't care who my children marry. I don't feel remotely fearful around any race.


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
offtopic:
The plural of lei is not leis. In the Hawai'ian language you do not add an 's' to words to create a plural. You say 'na' before the word. So more than one lei is "na lei" (Na sounds like nah, not nay.) Did you know they don't even sell lei in the grocery stores in NY?

cool! I love learning stuff like that. Thanks mama!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I like Discount School Supply
http://www.discountschoolsupply.com/...x=0&image1.y=0

Are you *trying* to make me go broke!







Gonna have fun there!

Doodlebugs, thanks for your response.







I wanted to put it out there in general as well because I have heard people say that before and also when people say they aren't racist they mean they don't use racial slurs and that's it, kwim? So I guess too I just felt like I needed to say that. There's always those a lurkin, yk?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Child care supply companies are GREAT places to get deals on toys- they even have wooden stuff!


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Adensmom your analogy isn't worth answering, because it doesn't work. You can't turn off racism in society, period.

I'm done. What could a person of color have to offer a group of white people in a discussion on racism?


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
Racism is primarily about power. It is not just about having to hear bad things sometimes or even often. I think the main problem here is that many people are trying to address racism without actually understanding what it is.

Kama I'm really wishing we had finished that anti-racism project we had started on eons ago.

mahdokht and kama, what was your project? if you are POC, it must be really frustrating to listen in on these discussions. please know that if you don't wanna do it, i will keep up the discussion here. If you do wanna keep educating, i am here to support you.

Here iare some definitions I work with. It comes from lots of research and personal and professional conversations:

Derman-Sparks and Phillips (1997) explain that racism is an "institutionalized system of economic, political, social and cultural relations that ensures that one racial group has and maintains power and privilege over all others in all aspects of life" (p. 2). This definition emphasizes that racism is not comprised of individual acts of hatred or discrimination. Instead, it is a systemic problem that is either reinforced or undermined by the behavior of individual participants. While there are obviously great differences within the White and of Color racial groupings, within each group, the individuals members are united by their particular positions in a racist system. In the current incarnation of racism, White people hold institutional power and receive privileges based on their skin color and, therefore, are the dominant group. The of Color group is united because they are denied institutional power in a racist system.

White Privilege:
Racism ensures social, political, and economic benefits for White people (Clark & O'Donnell, 1999; Derman-Sparks & Phillips, 1997). Peggy McIntosh (1989) calls these benefits, collectively, "White Privilege." Put simply, White Privilege is the pay-off White people receive for their participation in a racist system.
One of the most insidious privileges White people possess in a racist system is the privilege to choose to ignore, or escape, from racism. As long as we do not interrupt it, it will not be directed at us. When we choose to call attention to, or voice our opposition to the racism of others, we will be come the target of that racism. This aspect of White Privilege is crucial to our understanding of the White anti-racist's experience of conflict with other White people.

White Anti-racist:
A White anti-racist is a White person who has an acute awareness of how White privilege operates in his or her daily life, and who understands the role of White Privilege in supporting and maintaining racism. Additionally, and most importantly, a White anti-racist is someone who takes action to undermine racism within his or her own sphere of influence (Derman-Sparks & Phillips, 1997; Tatum, 1995). I use this term with the knowledge that the identity is dynamic. That is, a White person who embodies awareness and action with regard to racism will make mistakes, get tired, and will be a beneficiary of White Privilege regardless of his or her anti-racist intentions. For these reasons I add that, to be effectively anti-racist, a White person must demonstrate a commitment to doing the work of anti-racism in the face of exhaustion, criticism, fear and failure. The components of White anti-racist identity will be further explored in the literature review.

I know this is dense, but if you really want to understand and end racism, you HAVE to think deeply about this stuff.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*
I think I understand what racism is. Do you only define racism as when white people screw with other races?
I am not your typical privileged white chick. I've been deep into the deep of the bad side of town, and third world areas. I understand racism full well because I've lived it. And the "not even white people" crack doesn't make sense to me.

adensmom, you can see in my above definition that in this case, racism is indeed about white people screwing with other races. In this society, Whiteness carries power and privilege. When POC behave in discriminatory, hateful and judgemental ways, that is an unfortunate thing, but it is not racism becasue those groups do not hold institutional power. That is why ending racism is not just about being nice to everybody.

I just want to add that i know we are all good people. Nobody wants to be labeled racist and i will not do that in this discussion. We all learned the stuff when we were to young to have a say and now we are trying to do our best to unlearn it. So nobody needs to get defensive, or feel like we are attacking their knowledge or expereince, ok? Lets just honestly share our expereinces.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Thanks for your post Annette, it was really helpful. Can we have more of that...more storeis, activities, inspiring experiences.

Much love
Ellen


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
Adensmom your analogy isn't worth answering, because it doesn't work. You can't turn off racism in society, period.

I'm done. What could a person of color have to offer a group of white people in a discussion on racism?

I saw your reply before you changed it, and I must say, you don't know anything about my life or who I am. You don't know where I've been, nothing. I won't feel guilty about my "privilege" of being white. I am white. I am grateful that I don't have to put up with what poc do. I am only being honest here. I'm sure a lot of white people after they strip away the vague feelings of guilt and were honest would say that they would not want to walk in a poc's shoes.
If poc being horrible to white people isn't defined as racism, then okay. But I think that is splitting hairs. I left my white bread town at 18 thinking I was all politically correct with visions of myriads of different colored friends running through my head. What I encountered was something completely different, and hurtful, and yes, poc have to endure it every day, but those poc that treated me that way were completely 100% to blame for the way they behaved. If it can't be defined as racism, then how about hatred, or just plain evilness? Is that a better definition? I sure don't feel sorry for them, if that's what I'm supposed to feel. Not in the least. I'm not going to shove myself down so other people can crawl over me.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

adensmom-what stops you from calling it evilness, or meanness? Why is it racism?

The kind of statements you have made are ways for you as a white person to continue implanting racism in yourself and other white people, by proving to all, that poc are evil, bad people to be feared and hated.

My dd went to an all white Catholic school. Rather than telling me to my face that they did not want their children around my savage, they did what they could with the power they had. They 'lost' all my written notes to them explaining my daughter would be missing school because of the upcoming birth of her sister. The white Principal charged me with Educational Neglect according to the No Child Left Behind Act. My case went to trial, where the Judge dismissed it because the Principal was wrong. But, it is still on my background check, therefore making it close to impossible that I will ever find work again.

Racism is not always being called names, being beaten, or shot becuase of skin color. It works in much more powerful ways than just that.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

No one is asking white people to feel guilty. No one is asking them to feel ashamed. We are asking that you stop hurting us.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
No one is asking white people to feel guilty. No one is asking them to feel ashamed. We are asking that you stop hurting us.


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

I think a lot of people "out there" would agree with Adensmom. I hear those sentiments a lot. I don't feel that there is real understanding on a deeper, day to day level of what it feels like to walk around being a poc in the US, I'm not sure she's understanding the inherited heartbreak and the current bruises poc receive - in everything from the media, to toys, to everytime you walk anywhere in public, to comments from the well meaning to the ********, to letting people in New O stay in a filthy hell hole for 6 days. If there were white babies being gang raped in Connecticut, I assure you, more would have been done. How can this type of daily onslaught of messages that you are not valued or cherished, how can that not speak to the core of your spirit as a poc? How can that not teach your child their worth in the eyes of their country? How can that not break your heart? I understand not apologizing for your color. It's not your "fault" your white. Personally, however, I do think poc are owed a big freaking apology. We could start with getting the dead bodies, floating like trash, out of the water in New Orleans.
















And furthermore, because I can't seem to shut my mouth today







,...I would like to add that you cannot treat an entire people inhumanely and expect them to be happy for you that you're white. I know there are some that will absolutely not agree with me, but I think the guilt of our forefathers DOES rest on our heads. Because we haven't made amends. New Orleans isn't an incident in itself. It's just one of many in a succession of white America turning a blind eye to problems that affect poc in this country. Racism is everywhere. The lure of privilege and power is so strong and to be honest I have to direct my mind to stay open, focused and committed to not being a hypocrite. I find racism in my own heart on all levels. However, I am committed to eradicating it, because I truly believe we are all just spirits in a body. And spirit has no color. We are all beautiful and valued in the eyes of the Universe. I want that sentiment to be my path as well.

I'm going to shut up now and take a nap. I just can't stop getting into these threads today, and I'm starting to annoy even myself.......maybe I need more drama IRL???


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
I don't feel that there is real understanding on a deeper, day to day level of what it feels like to walk around being a poc in the US, I'm not sure she's understanding the inherited heartbreak and the current bruises poc receive - in everything from the media, to toys, to everytime you walk anywhere in public, to comments from the well meaning to the ********, to letting people in New O stay in a filthy hell hole for 6 days. If there were white babies being gang raped in Connecticut, I assure you, more would have been done. How can this type of daily onslaught of messages that you are not valued or cherished, how can that not speak to the core of your spirit as a poc? How can that not teach your child their worth in the eyes of their country? How can that not break your heart? I understand not apologizing for your color. It's not your "fault" your white. Personally, however, I do think poc are owed a big freaking apology. We could start with getting the dead bodies, floating like trash, out of the water in New Orleans.
















And furthermore, because I can't seem to shut my mouth today







,...I would like to add that you cannot treat an entire people inhumanely and expect them to be happy for you that you're white. I know there are some that will absolutely not agree with me, but I think the guilt of our forefathers DOES rest on our heads. Because we haven't made amends. New Orleans isn't an incident in itself. It's just one of many in a succession of white America turning a blind eye to problems that affect poc in this country. Racism is everywhere.


Wow-yes mama.......as much as I try to understand the trials and pains of my MIL and FIL or my dh or any of his other family-I CAN NOT.It is not the same IMO.....I hope everyone takes from this thread HOW REAL IT IS INDEED, and how much needs to be done to free ourselves STILL.I see people stare at my children with sympathy and have even heard on my side of the family that they could "never fit in with either side" and it breaks my soul,spirit heart everything I have and am is in both my daughters eyes and everything they are is both my husband and I-what a complicated vision.White IS power-it IS privelege-it IS easy-it is JOBS-it is HOUSING-it is CARE-it is all of these things most of us mamas wish for EVERYONE though that is not reality.Reality is racism and judgement of those different than caucasions.We today ARE responsible for our yesterday-those days ARE NOT over-just modernized.Just as our children will be responsible- I just pray their load is a bit lighter.







Sorry if this was choppy-I get so worked up I can hardly type for my brains rapid thinking on this.It is such an epidemic......among AMericas MANY others.


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## termasan (Jul 1, 2005)

It has taken me a day to catch up with this great discussion. I wanted to hop back in to say that I was using the definition of racism as prejudice+power, just as has been cited before. That is why I have said that it is up to the white majority here in the US (not talking about other countries) to fix the issue. And why I said it really doesn't matter that one isn't racist, it matters what benefits and priveleges you have because of racism and that you use that position for good. That, I believe, is the price of privilege...responsibility. I think that is true beyond race, for things like living in the first world, living above the poverty line, etc. Just because I am a Chicana, doesn't mean that I don't have privileges that I am accountable for, including achieving a first-rate education, living in a middle-class neighborhood, etc. I know that that was built on the back of my farm-working father who, among other things, had to use separate restrooms in segregated CA, of all places.

Sure, people of color can be prejudiced against other races/ethnicities/religions, it just isn't called racism. They can have biases, be mean, make generalizations, base things on stereotypes, etc. But they can't be racist. Some say that is splitting hairs. I say that saying it's splitting hairs ignores the reality of the power structure in the country, who benefits from it, who is hurt by it, and what we can all do, working together to make our society a better place. It isn't splitting hairs to say racism is a white issue because it recognized white privilege for what it is. But I don't give up in working against racism just because I'm not white. Heck, if that was the attitude of POC, I don't even want to think of where this country would be. I don't think anyone would suggest that all of us need to contribute to solutions.

I don't think anyone here would condone hateful, damaging behavior between two people/two groups regardless of color or other factors. So, what we're really talking about is how to teach children to be anti-racist, and how to do that at different age levels.

I especially liked the pp who said to be careful of utilizing stereotypical images of other cultures (i.e. a Mexican in a sombrero), as those are probably not applicable for most American kids. Introducing clay, dolls, books, etc. and talking about differences is great. I liked the Dr. Seuss Starbellied Sneeches (sp?). It is a great way to invite inquiries and discussion.

And another anti-racist effort can be to learn about terminology (like why it is offensive to many to say Oriental, instead of Asian, for example, or why some use Black while some prefer African American), and use that as a teaching tool. Words are very powerful. I personally identify as a Chicana, as opposed to Hispanic (many have pointed out that the word came into being when white wanted to start counting in the census= "His*Panic"), although I am also comfortable with Mexican American (not Mexican, as I was not born there). This just highlights for kids the variety of cultures, countries, ethnicities, etc. that exist in the US, and opens lots of avenues for discussion and exploration.

I'm sure it will take me another day or two to catch up with this thread, but I will definitely come back to get more of those websites where I can find diverse toys for my baby to play with. Can't get much in the stores that look like him.

Keep it comin' mamas!

Teresa


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
Derman-Sparks and Phillips (1997) explain that racism is an "institutionalized system of economic, political, social and cultural relations that ensures that one racial group has and maintains power and privilege over all others in all aspects of life" (p. 2). This definition emphasizes that racism is not comprised of individual acts of hatred or discrimination. Instead, it is a systemic problem that is either reinforced or undermined by the behavior of individual participants. While there are obviously great differences within the White and of Color racial groupings, within each group, the individuals members are united by their particular positions in a racist system.


I gotta love anyone who quotes Louise Derman-Sparks.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
mahdokht and kama, what was your project? if you are POC, it must be really frustrating to listen in on these discussions. please know that if you don't wanna do it, i will keep up the discussion here. If you do wanna keep educating, i am here to support you.

There were a handful of people inspired by mahdokht, who tried to start an anti-racist tribe here... maybe about a year ago?? I will see if I can find the thread. I am not a woman of color. I have just read what I can, learned what I can from the great mamas here who keep fighting the good fight and educating others. I sometimes get frustrated... but I try to remember two important things: That I still have the luxury of choosing which days I will think about and discuss racism, which is something my sisters of color do not have. Also, I still recall the first time I heard about institutional racism, the first time someone explained white privilege to me.... and that my mind rejected it. That I have the opinion I have now because several people took the time and energy to talk to me.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Also, I still recall the first time I heard about institutional racism, the first time someone explained white privilege to me.... and that my mind rejected it. That I have the opinion I have now because several people took the time and energy to talk to me.

I hear you. The first time I was exposed to the idea was in graduate school- I was working on my masters in early childhood, and we had teachers of all races. The class was called "The Child in Community" and one of the African American teachers began speaking her truth, very calmly, about what it was like to be suspect in stores for no other reason than the color of her skin. What it was like to have people cross the street because you were walking by. What it was like to be spoken to as if you were stupid, as if you were low-class, as if you were nothing, for no other reason than your skin color. That was her truth, and it hit me hard. I had never thought about it. I wanted with all my heart to reject it, not out of guilt of who I am, but because it was unimaginable to me that there were people on God's earth who were treated like crap just because of the color of their skin, and that there were other people who were given special blessings, again, just because of the color of their skin. It sucks. It's a truth I don't want to own, but that doesn't make it any less true. It doesn't cost me anything but a little discomfort to honor that truth that other mamas live every day of their lives, and it hurts those women to deny their truth. No one is asking me to feel guilty. Hell, no one is even asking me to take action. Just to acknowledge it, which I do.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
I'm done. What could a person of color have to offer a group of white people in a discussion on racism?

I truly wish you would stay for the sake of those of us willing to listen.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*

I'm done. What could a person of color have to offer a group of white people in a discussion on racism?

LOTS!


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=144080

Our previous discussion about "isms"


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
LOTS!









It was actually a rhetorical question in response to everything she's said being rejected and disputed. It was really kind of her (and *a lot* to put up with) to come onto this thread and give her perspective and knowledge. This is coming from a POC...what more could you ask for, kwim? She knows how much she has to bring to this discussion and how valuable her perspective is for us...just others were somehow unable to see that.

How will we ever get anywhere when people chose to remain so closed off to something coming from ...um the source!?


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
It was actually a rhetorical question in response to everything she's said being rejected and disputed. It was really kind of her (and *a lot* to put up with) to come onto this thread and give her perspective and knowledge. This is coming from a POC...what more could you ask for, kwim? She knows how much she has to bring to this discussion and how valuable her perspective is for us...just others were somehow unable to see that.

How will we ever get anywhere when people chose to remain so closed off to something coming from ...um the source!?

















I get it!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I just had to make sure everyone did.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but dp and dd are on my back to get off the 'puter and go get a burrito so...

I'm glad to see this discussion. I'm a white mom with a white partner and a white kid....we are actively anti-racist in our political lives, but sometimes I'm not totaly sure how to bring active anti-racism into my parenting. Most of my anti-racist white friends don't have kids, right, and most of the work I do ends up beig with other white folks around reconizing and chalenign whte supremacy.

annettemarie, i really appreciate the links you're putting out, and I'm looking forward to following them.

I just want to say, the reason why it's important to teach our white childrn (for those of us who have white children) about institutional racism (as opposed to just trying to teach them to be not racist) is that, as white peple in this country (I speak of the US b/c we have a special situation wrt white supremacy here...), even if they aren't raised to be racist, unless they are aware of and acively opposing white supremacy,. they'll be benefitting from it. It doesn't mean they're bad, its just the way this cuntry is. My parents were not racist, and i still grew up with an amazing amount of crap thanks to media and other people around me.

I want my kid to not only grow up to not use racial slurs, but to actively oppose the structures that support racism.

more later, thanks to the op for starting this hread!


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## adensmom (Aug 6, 2005)

I just looked up the definition of racism in a couple different dictionaries, and nowhere in any of them is there a mention of what race someone has to be to indulge in racism. It is defined as abusive or harassing behavior toward someone of another race. So unless someone has rewritten the english language, yes anyone can indulge in racism. Sorry, but "unfortunate behavior" just doesn't have the same sort of ring to it.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

A very beautiful childrens story: Nina Bonita!


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

I'm reading along as well although I don't have a lot to add at this point. For those that want to hold off on teaching about racism, well, I think proactively preparing to deal with this topic is a really good idea. It's not that your child is going to actively participate in racist behavior necessarily but the things he/she does may make your own race issues come up.

Embarassing story from me...

Last year at the pool my son said "Hi, brown face" to an African American man. I completely freaked (well, not outwardly). I didn't know what the heck to say or how to handle it. I'm still not sure what I should have done. I'm embarassed to say that what I said to my son was "Don't say things like that!" It was so awful, I'm so embarassed to even write about it.

So, yes, some practical advice on how to deal with this issue is most definitely welcome.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adensmom*
I just looked up the definition of racism in a couple different dictionaries, and nowhere in any of them is there a mention of what race someone has to be to indulge in racism. It is defined as abusive or harassing behavior toward someone of another race. So unless someone has rewritten the english language, yes anyone can indulge in racism. Sorry, but "unfortunate behavior" just doesn't have the same sort of ring to it.

We are having a discussion about a sociological phenomenon. That is why we are using a sociological defenition.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Cielle, I actually laughed really hard when I read that.







: It sounds like your ds was just trying to use an accurate description since he didn't have a name and wanted to say "hi." I probably would've just said "Yes, that man has brown skin (or if ds is really young I'd just say "brown face") but it's better to call someone by their name or say sir (or mister or something.

I don't think it's a big deal at all really, and the man probably didn't think it was such a big deal but it probably showed you where you're at comfort-wise w/race issues, kwim? For me I just try to notice how I react to things and then I know what I need to work on.

(sorry, now my keyboard is screwed up! It's putting everything in the wrong place.







)


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Thanks for the feedback, MAN. I was really scared to post that!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

As for suggestions-teach your children that every person is a human being and every person has a name. It is not impolite to have a child come up to me and ask my name first and then communicate/conversate with me as a human being. I don't like when kids nor adults talk at me because I am an 'Indian', kwim?
When my children see someone they would like to meet, they always introduce themselves and then ask the other's name.
That is just simple respect.
Have you ever had someone yell or say, "Hey! Hey you!"
It is just rude.
There is nothing wrong with walking up to a person and introducing yourself, and it teaches/reinforces that in your child(ren).
Especially if it is someone you see more than once. All the store clerks, librarians, etc. know my children and myself. They are human beings, also, and also like to be greeted and told to have a nice day or asked how their day is going. It doesn't take much time out of your day to connect with another human being.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

One more funny story? I used to work in a children's bookstore in NYC. One February a new pop-up version of the song "The Wheels on the Bus" came out (by Paul Zelinsky - a very cool book). A mom and her 9 or 10 yo dd were browsing near the new books, and the mom picked up this one and said, "Oh look! You loved this song when you were a baby!" The girl didn't pay a whole lot of attention, and wandered over to another display, but the mom went through the book page by page, getting more and more animated with each verse. By the time she got to "The driver on the bus says, 'Move on back! Move on back! Move on back!'" she was singing out loud, which got her dd's attention. The girl came over to the mom, looked over her shoulder, and said, disbelievingly, "A pop-up book?? About Rosa Parks???"

I hope posting this doesn't seem flippant. I'm actually really learning SO much by reading this discussion. Just seemed like time for a little comic relief.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

I really, really tried to stay away from this thread but it kept popping back up and I finally had to read it and y'know, it must be soooo nice to be able to decide _when_ you get to tell your child about racism. I can't even imagine thinking, "hmmm...seven is a nice age. Or, ten. Yeah, ten or twelve. That gives me plenty of time to hunt down just the right resources and we could just sit down with a plate of cookies and some hot cocoa and chat."







That's just surreal. It's a luxury.

When my daughter was two, she started noticing that certain people in the neighborhood--adults--wouldn't speak to her, even while they fussed over other children. She noticed when other moms, about my age, gave her openly nasty looks when she enthusiastically said hello. She noticed when the father at the playground physically removed his own daughter when the two little girls started playing. We had no choice about when to introduce racism. Because other parents had that choice, my daughter fielded questions from her peers about her race and why she looked different. By the time she was three, she knew about Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks and Malcolm X. She knew about the dogs and the fire hoses. She knew her grandparents went to segregated schools and what segregated meant and she knew why some people didn't like her simply because her skin was darker. And she knew that those people were wrong. The knowledge gave her the tools she needed to face racism and deal with it, without questioning herself.

We live in Virginia, not far from DC, in a more progressive, diverse area. I've seen worse, but even in Northern Virginia you have to be in serious denial to assert that racism isn't a problem.

I can't turn off life like I can turn off the television.

Nina Bonita is a beautiful book. I also love Black is Brown is Tan. We read poetry; my sons are named for poets from the Harlem Renaissance and my older son's favorite color is brown.

Missy


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
MAN, I think I did say that I grew up in a very small, white, christian town and that I didn't experience racism there. I didn't ever hear anyone say anything about other races.

Apologies if someone already posted this, it's taking me awhile to catch up on this thread!!!

I wanted to say that ne of the more subtle ways racism/white supremacy manifests is with the ways that white is normalized and people who are not white are "otehrized". I grew up in a town of about 1000 people, and at the time I was a child, they were *all* white people. So, I didn't see lots of racial tension or anything, but I sure did learn that white people were normal and everyone else was "different."

(oh and that's not directed at you doodlebusmom, that phrase I quoted made me think of it.)


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

So...what do I do regarding racism with my kid, who will be three in November.

She does not watch any tv or movies, none whatsoever. And that's not only because of the problem of racism....there is nothing on tv or in movies (movies appropriate for a chld, anyway) that supports the vaues I hold and wish to instill in my child.

We do keep our eyes open for books with characters who are of a variety of types, although I have noticed a tendency for there to be lots of picture books that have a white male protagonist and then some girls and children of color in the background. I try to find books with girls and with chidren of color front and center.

Only very recently, I've started trying out the phrase "there's all sorts of different people/ eople come in all kinds of shapes/types of bodies/etc". My kid has not ever asked me any race related questions...but in such a race obsesed cultur, have no doubt it will come up someday.

I wish she were surrounded by a broader variety of people. I know a lot of people who are not white, but the people we see on a daily or weekly basis are mostly white. She just started a new preschool, one that just got started, and so there's only five kids enrolled so far, and so far there are three white kids...I am hoping that the make up of the kids there will be similar when it's full.

I have done a lo of anti-racist training, and I do anti-racist work, but mainly with other white people, oter white activists. I feel as though I have learned so much, but still, my 25 or so years of learning white supremacy (which is what every white person in the usa learns unless they are encountering active anti-racism) is very present in my head.

I really appreciate this thread being started. I hope to find a way that my child doesn't grow up with a huge amount of internalized white superiority, so sh doesn't have to spend years learning something different like I have.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
I really, really tried to stay away from this thread but it kept popping back up and I finally had to read it and y'know, it must be soooo nice to be able to decide _when_ you get to tell your child about racism. I can't even imagine thinking, "hmmm...seven is a nice age. Or, ten. Yeah, ten or twelve. That gives me plenty of time to hunt down just the right resources and we could just sit down with a plate of cookies and some hot cocoa and chat."







That's just surreal. It's a luxury.

When my daughter was two, she started noticing that certain people in the neighborhood--adults--wouldn't speak to her, even while they fussed over other children. She noticed when other moms, about my age, gave her openly nasty looks when she enthusiastically said hello. She noticed when the father at the playground physically removed his own daughter when the two little girls started playing. We had no choice about when to introduce racism. Because other parents had that choice, my daughter fielded questions from her peers about her race and why she looked different. By the time she was three, she knew about Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks and Malcolm X. She knew about the dogs and the fire hoses. She knew her grandparents went to segregated schools and what segregated meant and she knew why some people didn't like her simply because her skin was darker. And she knew that those people were wrong. The knowledge gave her the tools she needed to face racism and deal with it, without questioning herself.

We live in Virginia, not far from DC, in a more progressive, diverse area. I've seen worse, but even in Northern Virginia you have to be in serious denial to assert that racism isn't a problem.

I can't turn off life like I can turn off the television.

Nina Bonita is a beautiful book. I also love Black is Brown is Tan. We read poetry; my sons are named for poets from the Harlem Renaissance and my older son's favorite color is brown.

Missy

I haven't read all 8 pages yet but I will in the morning. I wanted to say thanks for contributing to this thread - and for pointing out the privilege that white people have getting to decide when (or if!) to discuss racism with our children.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Missy and Sadie Sabot, thanks for your posts. They are so beautiful and inspiring.

Hey, which poets do your kids like? Geez, we should have a thread about that!


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaye*
I haven't read all 8 pages yet but I will in the morning. I wanted to say thanks for contributing to this thread - and for pointing out the privilege that white people have getting to decide when (or if!) to discuss racism with our children.

I want to clarify: I am white. My husband is black. We started dating over 20 years ago, when we were in high school. Unlike other couples at the time, we didn't sneak around. I went out with him because I truly liked him, not because it was "forbidden". But a lot of my friends were black...so no one in the black community ever gave me a hard time...but I very quickly learned who my real friends were within the white community.

That's one reason why threads like this anger me so much...I have to see other white women ignoring what, to me, is so clear. I've seen my children hurt. I've also (in my "past" life) been in the teachers' lounge and heard white teachers make inexcusable comments, assuming they were "safe"....

Missy


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:

That's one reason why threads like this anger me so much...I have to see other white women ignoring what, to me, is so clear. I've seen my children hurt. I've also (in my "past" life) been in the teachers' lounge and heard white teachers make inexcusable comments, assuming they were "safe"....
And what did YOU say or do? Or did you just let it slide?

I truly believe:
That knowing something is wrong and not doing anything about it, is just as wrong doing the something that was wrong.

I want to comment on white privilege. It's alive and rampant. It exists, and shouldn't.

With that, yes I am VERY thankful that I can choose when to introduce racism and sensitive topics to my children. I know of the inequality POC are faced with, but does that mean I should expose my children to something vicious at an early age because someone else was forced to? Is this something you would wish on anyone? Just for the sake of "understanding"? Especially when I 2 or 3 year old has very little controll over an older child or adults actions. Why burden them so?


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Thanks for your comments, MITB. I appreciate them. I have a hard time because ds is very outgoing and I am extremely shy. He's constantly wanting to talk to people and my reaction is often to feel like he's bothering people







It's hard to realize crappy things about yourself.

Fishy, I don't get what you're saying about holding off on teaching about racism. I haven't seen any suggestions here that couldn't be modified for age. What's wrong with poetry, story books, age appropriate conversations, etc.?

Kids observe the world very closely and I think if we don't teach them our values right away, they will learn things we wish they hadn't.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*
And what did YOU say or do? Or did you just let it slide?

Oh, yes. I totally ignored my family and the community that has embraced me and my students and I let those teachers undermine everything I believe in, because I figured their racism was pretty harmless in the classroom. That is, in case you can't tell from my posts, exactly my style.







:







I'm very passive.

Quote:

With that, yes I am VERY thankful that I can choose when to introduce racism and sensitive topics to my children. I know of the inequality POC are faced with, but does that mean I should expose my children to something vicious at an early age because someone else was forced to? Is this something you would wish on anyone? Just for the sake of "understanding"? Especially when I 2 or 3 year old has very little controll over an older child or adults actions. Why burden them so?
That doesn't mean you shouldn't gradually introduce your child to race and racism. If you don't teach your child, you perpetuate the cycle. I'm very familar with Alexandria and the racism there is pretty bad, even if it's something that you haven't noticed.

Missy


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fishygirlsmom*

With that, yes I am VERY thankful that I can choose when to introduce racism and sensitive topics to my children. I know of the inequality POC are faced with, but does that mean I should expose my children to something vicious at an early age because someone else was forced to? Is this something you would wish on anyone? Just for the sake of "understanding"? Especially when I 2 or 3 year old has very little controll over an older child or adults actions. Why burden them so?

POC have to introduce their children to what WP is all about for their protection and survival. Racism is a very dangerous and vicious thing if you are a person of color. It sucks too if you are white but for different reasons. There is nothing vicious about preventing your child from learning racism or teaching them to their developmental level about white privilege. Infact, all of the suggestions we have heard so far are pretty appropriate, right? Yes, we should live in a world where we don't have to do this, but for now it is the only solution we have.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

I just wanted to point out that Missy's post on how most of you can "choose" when to discuss racism and the luxury in that.....is BRILLANTLY accurate and something I can not imagine.My dd#1 is only 21 mos but I can see questions coming and feelings hurt.It makes me sick to my stomach even as I type it.

Being able to "time" your discussions on race issues is just another "privilege" IMHO.....

BTW Missy-I just bought Black is Brown is Tan.....anyone have any other recommendations?


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Here is a link to a search for childrens books with multi-cultural flavor







. My disclaimer is that I have only read a selct bunch of these titles so the others may not appeal to some of you but I think its a great place to start and do some of yoru own research for some books for your babies!! Any excuse to buy books is a good one for me......I







BOOKS!

Reading List


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

My post posted twice for some reason-sorry!







:


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks for the list! We have a lot of those books, we've read others...but I can feel a trip to Border's coming on tonight...

Another good one is _The Black Snowman_.

Missy


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Native American Authors
I have found this website very valuable. Not only can you search by Author or Title, but also by Tribe. So, if you want a book that is specific to the Tribes in your region, you can find it there. These books are written by Natives, so it is more accurate information.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Some of my favorite books, I hope you would borrow them from your library or get your hands on them, they are great reads...most of the ones I am listing were ones I read to my children or they read themselves.
Two Old Women Powwow Summer
Jim Northrup Jim is an author and I find his books and stories invaluable. No, I do not read all of them to my children, so, as an adult, I suggest you read first to yourself and choose the stories that are age appropriate. He has many really funny stories that have my children laughing. And many for adults, but that are not for children, IMO.
Night Flying Woman
I knew Oona and miss her. She had many wonderful stories she told.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

MITB--Thank you so much for these titles. I will definitely seek them out!

Missy


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cielle*
Kids observe the world very closely and I think if we don't teach them our values right away, they will learn things we wish they hadn't.

I agree. I also think that by the time kids are school aged (5) we need to actively be teaching them because they are starting to learn history and they will learn it with a white bias if we are not vigilant. An excellant book for your reading is "Lies My Teacher Told Me" which is about american history high school text. If you kid is old enough to hear the story of the first thanksgiving, it's time that you start teaching them about racism.

As our kids' circle of peer expands (which is going to happen regardless of if you homeschool or send your child to school) they will be exposed to children who have been taught different things. Although when children are very young we can shield them from racism in media, the older they get the more difficult this becomes (they watch TV at friends houses, for example).

In our home we approach this difficult subject the same we do all difficult subjects -- in age appropriate ways as things come up. One thing I don't understand is how someone can have a life where issues don't come up. Stuff just comes up -- you can either try to shield your child from it when it does or you can use it as an opportunity to instill your values.

I also don't understand how a child can be part of the solution if they aren't aware that there is a problem. My DDs' girls scout troop wants to do something to help the Katrina evacuues (the youngest girls in the troup are 5). If they didn't know that a bunch of people lost their homes, they couldn't do that. I don't see any of this as being about guilt (I don't feel guilty and I'm not teaching my kids guilt) but about the real work we can do to treat others as human beings worthy of dignity, and about teaching our kids the importance of doing that work.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
MITB--Thank you so much for these titles. I will definitely seek them out!

Missy

You are welcome. If anyone sees a particulr title and it does not have a review, feel free to PM me, and if I have read it, I will let you know if it is appropriate. There are many books that I have read to my children, but they pertained to their specific culture/traditions, so I was not sure they would be appropriate for this topic, kwim?
I, myself, do not always share our stories with my children as I feel some are inappropriate, like the stories about Owl and how he takes bad children. That is not a good story, IMO, for my children. I had nightmares from those stories, and they do not teach personal responsibilty for our actions. And, it is unrealistic to think of a Giant owl swooping down and grabbing you.
Although,a scary moment did happen once that involved a Hawk! My then 1 yr old dd was running across an open field and a hawk was sitting in the tree, it flew out and swooped down. We all screamed because it looked like it was going to grab our baby, but it grabbed a squirrel that was about ten feet from our baby, and flew up into another tree and began eating it. I never in my life thought I would see something like that! wwe have pictures of the hawk eating the squirrel. But, man, there were probably a dozen of us bbq'ing and we all screamed when that hawk flew down. It had its talons out and everything and it was HUGE! It's wing span had to have been almost five feet, and our baby was only 24 inches big. I am sure if it had been hungry enough, it could have attacked our baby.
I still find myself looking in the trees and sky since that moment. Crazy or what?
Talk about feeling helpless as a parent! My heart was in my throat for quite awhile. I just held my baby close and of course, she didn't understand any of it. :LOL


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

I too thank you MITB for the titles-I am on my way to Barnes N Noble today so hopefully I might come across a couple today.

This is def. a good turn for this thread-TOOLS we can use to save our childrens generation......


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

One thing I don't understand is how someone can have a life where issues don't come up.
I think the issues come up in everyone's life; I just think some people choose not to see them. A few years ago, my husband and I taught a workshop to aid teachers in identifying their prejudices and then using that knowledge to eliminate bias within their classroom and we used a single random issue of The Washington Post to demonstrate how many stories featured racism at some level. We also looked at one night of television on a major network and noted how many minorities were featured (both in commercials and on shows) and in what roles. It was very easy to see how our prejudices are fed. Most of the participants went into the workshop with the belief they were open-minded and largely unbiased and were shocked by how much institutional racism has impacted them and, thus, their teaching. oh, I love homeschooling!!!

Quote:

I also don't understand how a child can be part of the solution if they aren't aware that there is a problem.
So true!!


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

You know, we all are saying pretty much the same thing, I just saw that now.

At first I was thinking teach about adult racism, and you were all saying yes teach young children about racism, and I was saying no way. Then you started giving examples, and we ARE doing that. Stories, poetry, games, toys that are multicultural, teaching and showing our children to respect all people regardless of color, ethnicity, social class. But, I have said these things throughout this thread.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

A couple of other good kids books-

More, More, More Said the Baby
Just beautifully unobtrusively multicultural
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
Anything by Vera B Williams, really

anything by Eloise Greenfield
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...003161-8990357
especially "Honey I Love"

all of Ann Morris's books- she takes a common theme, like bread, and shows it
all around the world

Elisa Klevan has great stuff- we especially like "Hooray, a Pinata!"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...003161-8990357

Grace Lin has two nice ones we like
Dim Sum for Everyone
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...003161-8990357
and
Round Is a Mooncake
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
There are many books that I have read to my children, but they pertained to their specific culture/traditions, so I was not sure they would be appropriate for this topic, kwim?
I, myself, do not always share our stories with my children as I feel some are inappropriate,

I like to read my kids books from other cultures and I like to enjoy music from other cultures with them as well.

We really like Paul Goble's writing. He has done several books for kids based on Native American legends and the illustrations are super. _The Girl Who Loved Wild Horses_ is my DDs' all time favorite (and it is a Caldecott winner) but all his books are super.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

These books by Jack Ezra Keats

Quote:

Peter, were especially important to Keats. During his many years of creating illustrations for other authors, he had never seen an African American child as the hero. He determined that when he wrote his own books, a black child would be the hero.

"The Snowy Day" is the tale of a little boy who lives in the city and his delight in the first snow of the winter. The story is a simple one, told effectively in a few words. The illustrations are striking, featuring strong colors, varied textures, and simple shapes. Keats wrote a total of seven books featuring Peter between 1962 and 1972:

"The Snowy Day" (compare prices),
"Whistle for Willie" (compare prices),
"Peter's Chair" (compare prices),
"A Letter to Amy" (compare prices),
"Goggles!" (compare prices),
"Hi Cat!" (compare prices), and
"Pet Show" (compare prices).
I also wanted to second "More, More, More said the Baby" I loved that books so much!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I just wanted to add that by purchasing books about other cultures that are written by white authors, makes it that much more difficult for non-whites to get their books published. Purchasing or reading or demanding books about certain cultures, religions, peoples that are written by those same people helps the fight against racism.
Does that make sense?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I just wanted to add that by purchasing books about other cultures that are written by white authors, makes it that much more difficult for non-whites to get their books published. Purchasing or reading or demanding books about certain cultures, religions, peoples that are written by those same people helps the fight against racism.
Does that make sense?

Which books exactly are you referring to?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Which books exactly are you referring to?

When I wrote the pp, I did not have any particular books in mind.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Jack Ezra Keats is actually white. I still love his books, but I understand what MITB is saying.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
When I wrote the pp, I did not have any particular books in mind.

I don't know, MITB- you may have just lost me here. While I would certainly agree that a book about a certain race, written by a person of that race might have more... I don't know, authenticity? I'm not willing to throw out all the works of other authors just because their skin tone doesn;t match up to their illustrations. Which is another point- often children's books have difference authors and illustrators- which has to line up with the content of the book? Both? Does just one count? What if the book is about more than one culture? Does the author and/or illustrator have to represent all the viewpoints found in the book?

I think one can encourage the publication of books by people who are indigenous to the culture, and recognize the inherent value and beauty of those books, while at the same time recognizing the beauty and value of books by other authors as well.

Although maybe I am misunderstanding you.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

A Catholic who writes a book about Jewish culture and traditions. How 'correct' do you think he would be? Is it fair to the Jewish people? Why does the Catholic get to profit from the Jewish people?


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

But MITB,

I see what annette is talking about. What about book that are about multiple cultures and the author is only from one of them? Or religions, enthicities, etc...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
A Catholic who writes a book about Jewish culture and traditions. How 'correct' do you think he would be? Is it fair to the Jewish people? Why does the Catholic get to profit from the Jewish people?

I guess it would depend on the book and on the author. I would't write off every single book ever written by a Catholic about the Jewish culture. I don't see how it would be fair or unfair, without reading the book. The Catholic would be profiting from her work, not from the Jewish people.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Wouldnt that in itself be a subtle form of prejudice by avoiding books on certain topics,religions,ethnicities etc because of the authors background?


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I am a white mama with one white child (4) and one black child (1). We discuss racism with our son in a way that he can understand, probably starting at age three. We have never had real negativity acted out against our family, but we have had looks (double-takes), and my son gets questions like, "Is that really your sister?"

We had a pretty long discussion about Martin Luther King Jr. in the wax museum. He was standing right there in front of us.......why not? Again, it was on a basic level, but it is a necessary introduction.

I like the Ezra Jack Keats books because they are very simple for a toddler (I find that most other books with AA protagonists are for older kids), and just about being, not being black (not that that won't be appropriate down the line).

A toddler board book that I love is "To Be a Kid", by Maya Amjera and John D. Ivanko. There are all kinds of kids being kids in it. A good book about being a family that doesn't look like all the other families is Todd Parr's "The Family Book". It is about differences being okay and good. At this point, I actually prefer the real discussions about race and racism to be with me, and not come from books. It is just too abstract for kids when they are small.

I discuss death, war, politics and racism with my son. He is interested in all of it. Kids can handle more than we think. I am not saying "load them up with all kinds of heavy stuff", but keep it relevant (with examples from their own lives) and at their level.

L.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I don't see how it would be fair or unfair, without reading the book. The Catholic would be profiting from her work, not from the Jewish people.

But it is taking away from the Jewish people a profit they could be making. Does that make more sense?
The white person that profits from books about other cultures is in a way stealing from them.
It is another way for the white people to have power, authority, and money.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I can see your point Boonie Mama... but at the same time books are not... well they aren't like anything else. If a book works.... the language is good, it reads aloud well, it has illustrations that fit.. are touching, lovely... there is a large part of me that says "Buy the best product to educate my kid." Jack Ezra Keats wrote classics. He used his experience and credibility in childrens publishing to write books the likes of which simply didn't exist 30 years ago. He's dead now.. I wonder who gets the money for his books? (Sorry... I digress...)

Oh... and at the risk of sounding arguementative... which is not my intention... in all fairness... it's not like "black people" or "white people" or "Jewish people" or whatever, get the money. A single person gets the money. Well, in case of choosing by author. I would be more likely to get excited about finding publishing houses run by people of color.. no matter whose writting they are printing.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
But it is taking away from the Jewish people a profit they could be making. Does that make more sense?
The white person that profits from books about other cultures is in a way stealing from them.
It is another way for the white people to have power, authority, and money.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I completely disagree. I was with you up until now, though.

ETA: If the only people "allowed" to write books were people who actually experienced the culture, lifestyle, religion, etc of said book, the world of literature would be a pretty sad place.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*

Oh... and at the risk of sounding arguementative... which is not my intention... in all fairness... it's not like "black people" or "white people" or "Jewish people" or whatever, get the money. A single person gets the money. Well, in case of choosing by author. I would be more likely to get excited about finding publishing houses run by people of color.. no matter whose writting they are printing.


This is one of the reasons I really like Barefoot Books
http://www.barefoot-books.com/us/site/pages/home.php

Quote:

Our Mission
At Barefoot Books, we celebrate art and story that opens the hearts and minds of children from all walks of life, inspiring them to read deeper, search further, and explore their own creative gifts. Taking our inspiration from many different cultures, we focus on themes that encourage independence of spirit, enthusiasm for learning, and sharing of the world's diversity. Interactive, playful and beautiful, our products combine the best of the present with the best of the past to educate our children as the caretakers of tomorrow.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
But it is taking away from the Jewish people a profit they could be making. Does that make more sense?
The white person that profits from books about other cultures is in a way stealing from them.
It is another way for the white people to have power, authority, and money.

I can see what you are saying, but that would mean that white people should only ever write about white people, and that no one should ever write a story that contains characters with diverse backgrounds.

I really don't know the color of most of the authors on our shelves. I do know that _Who Owns the Sun?_ was written by a white teenage girl and that it is a powerful and moving story of a black slave trying to explain slavery to his son. Saying that people shouldn't read this book because the author is a white chick just doesn't feel right to me.

Since it is a creative work, no one else could write the same book. If the author a _Who Owns the Sun_ hadn't written it because she was white, no one else _could_ have written it. She was the only one who could because it came out of her heart. She wasn't taking away something from African Americans, she was giving something to all of us.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Okay: Different topic: (Not that the current one shouldn't continue... just loo king for a parallel discussion.

I'm not sure how to discuss with my DD racial humour from people of color. As an example... there are street performers... we pass them in the subway and in the parks. A couple of the groups she loves to stop and watch are young black men... anywhere between 3 and 9ish... and a part of their 'patter' as they alternate performing and reminding onlookers that they are performing for donations, are jokes, some of them of a racial nature. "Gather round folks, there's nothing to be afraid of... we're just two black men. We can't hurt you.... Well, not ALL of you." I honestly can't tell how much of this is over her head... how much she pays attention to them talking or if she is just enjoying the music, dancing, gymnastics, etc....


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I completely disagree. I was with you up until now, though.

ETA: If the only people "allowed" to write books were people who actually experienced the culture, lifestyle, religion, etc of said book, the world of literature would be a pretty sad place.


But she isn't talking about disallowing those authors to publish, she's saying purchase books thoughtfully.

Think of how much harder it must be for a person of color to negotiate the publishing world than it is for a white person. Many books written by poc may also be published by small presses so by seeking out their books you can also support small businesses rather than giant media corporations.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Okay, from the perspective of a Native American who has written children's books about and for Native children. I take them to the publisher (not really, but I am trying to make this simple) and the publisher says, 'we already published a story written by a non-native, so, no we will not publish your story."

This is the reason Louise Erdrich created her own publishing company, because time after time this is the response authors were getting. She also has her own bookstore in Minneapolis.

Same with the music and movie industry. My own mother has written several screenplays, and after many years has had to join with other Native American women and they are now creating their own ....I lost the word for it...place to create their movies.
My uncle was the manager for Indigenous. He ended up creating his own company to promote Indigenous and get them to where they are today.

You also see this in the AA communities. Snoop-Dogg record and labeling Co. (I'm not googling, so not sure if I have that right, but hopefully you see my point) and Nasir Jones has his own company now, too. Okay, I'll shut up now because I am not completely familiar with music companies, just the musicians. :LOL


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cielle*
But she isn't talking about disallowing those authors to publish, she's saying purchase books thoughtfully.

Think of how much harder it must be for a person of color to negotiate the publishing world than it is for a white person. Many books written by poc may also be published by small presses so by seeking out their books you can also support small businesses rather than giant media corporations.

Well, of course I purchase books thoughtfully. I think the intent of the author has a lot to do with it as well. But I also am not going to discount a book because of the color of the author's skin.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cielle*
But she isn't talking about disallowing those authors to publish, she's saying purchase books thoughtfully.

Think of how much harder it must be for a person of color to negotiate the publishing world than it is for a white person. Many books written by poc may also be published by small presses so by seeking out their books you can also support small businesses rather than giant media corporations.

Thank you cielle for 'getting' my point.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Reading your posts more carefully MamaBoonie... it makes more sense. You aren't saying "Don't" Just saying "Notice and think about it"

It's almost impossible to argue with that. In any case, I'm not gonna.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Okay, from the perspective of a Native American who has written children's books about and for Native children. I take them to the publisher (not really, but I am trying to make this simple) and the publisher says, 'we already published a story written by a non-native, so, no we will not publish your story."

So are you saying that people should not write outside of their experience out of respect to people of color who may or may not want to write a book on the same topic? I'm having a hard time grasping what exactly you are saying.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Reading your posts more carefully MamaBoonie... it makes more sense. You aren't saying "Don't" Just saying "Notice and think about it"

It's almost impossible to argue with that. In any case, I'm not gonna.

:LOL I agree- of course I think we should purchase books thoughtfully, and not just mindlessly buy whatever the children's book of the month club says we should.

Speaking of which, I thought of another great children's book
Please, Baby, Please by Spike Lee
It has great rhythm!


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

I really can understand both sides.....Think of how many authors of different races though mostly go thru white publishing houses, I am not going to NOT buy from them even though it is no GAIN for authors of another ethnicity.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Childrens book of the month clubs never have good books........









Let me just say AGAIN because my last post may have seemed a touch vague that I understand comepletely-its like shopping at a black owned music store concious of the fact this is minority business instead of going to Tower or Sam Goody.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eemamahob*
Childrens book of the month clubs never have good books........









Let me just say AGAIN because my last post may have seemed a touch vague that I understand comepletely-its like shopping at a black owned music store concious of the fact this is minority business instead of going to Tower or Sam Goody.










Please Baby Please was a good selection- my kids love that book!

I just realized why I'm having a bit of a tough time wrapping my brain around this- I rarely buy books new. I get them at thrift stores and yard sales, and ebay, and half.com. Usually I am not in a position of being that choosey. :LOL


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

As an adolescent, two of my favorite books were ones that dealt with racism. Thanks for the book discussion that jogged my memory! Strangely, they were both written by Judy Blume. One was "Iggie's House" which was about a caucasian girl who befriended some new AA neighbors. Others in the neigborhood weren't so welcoming. It was about her realizing that racism did occur, and in her neighborhood nonetheless. The other was "Starring Sally J. Friedman as Herself". It was my absolute favorite. I bet I read it 10 times. She was a Jewish girl living in Florida post WWII. It was where I learned about the holocaust. I remember asking my mom who Adolf Hitler was when I was reading it. That's when my mom explained what had happened during WWII. I was probably 9 years old. I know that Judy Blume is a white author, but these two books definitely educated me and touched my heart when I was very young.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Please Baby Please was a good selection- my kids love that book!

I just realized why I'm having a bit of a tough time wrapping my brain around this- I rarely buy books new. I get them at thrift stores and yard sales, and ebay, and half.com. Usually I am not in a position of being that choosey. :LOL


I hear you mama-I am all about everything second hand........


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## Fishygirlsmom (Aug 26, 2005)

Another great book :Girls Rule the World, by Jada Pinkett "Hotty" Smith. There is one by Will Smith but I can't think of the title.

Oh gosh and another one, it's about a girl with long legs who wants to be a prima ballerina. UGH! It's really adorable though.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Reading your posts more carefully MamaBoonie... it makes more sense. You aren't saying "Don't" Just saying "Notice and think about it"

It's almost impossible to argue with that. In any case, I'm not gonna.

Thank you.
I am not saying that white people shouldn't write books that are not about white people. That is just wrong. For a true writer, that is their lifeblood. There are white people who purposely corner the market on other cultures for the sole purpose of profiting from them. IMO, that is wrong.
Again, I am not saying they aren't good reads, but it is not okay what they have done.
I can't remember the guys name...George something, all his books are about 'Indians' and yet are for the sole purpose of painting the Indian as a noble, savage.

I have read Anne Rice and I would not consider her writing about black people to be perpetuating the racism, as her books are fiction and hopefully readers do not accept them as truth.
However, a non-fiction book, like my example about the Catholic who writes about Jewish customs/traditions, yet only attended one or two, is wrong to do so. It cannot be a truthful account about Jewish customs/traditions.
Arghh. I'm getting frustrated as I am not sure how to put into words my thoughts about such a subject.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I just wanted to add that by purchasing books about other cultures that are written by white authors, makes it that much more difficult for non-whites to get their books published. Purchasing or reading or demanding books about certain cultures, religions, peoples that are written by those same people helps the fight against racism.
Does that make sense?

I think you're on to something if you look at the total of what gets published. It is probably a whole lot more by white people than POC. It is probably a good idea to support writers of color by checking out their work. But i think it is also important to buy and read and experience books written by all kinds of people.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Thank you.
I am not saying that white people shouldn't write books that are not about white people. That is just wrong. For a true writer, that is their lifeblood. There are white people who purposely corner the market on other cultures for the sole purpose of profiting from them. IMO, that is wrong.
Again, I am not saying they aren't good reads, but it is not okay what they have done.
I can't remember the guys name...George something, all his books are about 'Indians' and yet are for the sole purpose of painting the Indian as a noble, savage.


Please don't get frustrated! I really am trying to understand. I think I actually may even agree with you. :LOL

One reason I was confused is we were talking about children's books, and somehow transitioned into adult books, and I think I missed the turn.

One thing that has always gotten on my nerves are "Christian" authors like Bodie and Brock Thoene (?) who write about Jewish people and always end up converting them by the end of the novel. Is that the sort of thing you mean?

And I agree that for non-fiction (which is what I was thinking of when I said it was about purpose) is going to be more "authentic" for lack of a better word when the author has actually experienced what she writes about.

Are we on the same page? I don't want to misread what you are saying.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Reading your posts more carefully MamaBoonie... it makes more sense. You aren't saying "Don't" Just saying "Notice and think about it"

It's almost impossible to argue with that. In any case, I'm not gonna.

Isn't it amazing how carefully you have to read and think about every word when you are discussing this stuff?? I think about that alot..how loaded with meaning words are.

Hey, I think I'm on to something. I was getting a little frustrated by all the book talk...it seems so abstract sometimes, just to read books about a subject. Maybe if we can give our little ones a real appreciation for words...give them lots to choose from and then help them choose carefully....I know our language is only part of the problem of systemic racism. But i get so sick of hearing people complain about having to be "PC." They are just words, they say. But words are so powerful!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
They are just words, they say. But words are so powerful!

Whenever I catch myself thinking "just words" I remind myself that according to my own beliefs, God spoke the entire universe into existance. Words have power!


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

This discussion on writers made me think about who my favorites are. Maya Angelou is probably one of the biggest. She came to the town I live in when I was in high school, and I went and listened to her.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilsishomemade*
This discussion on writers made me think about who my favorites are. Maya Angelou is probably one of the biggest. She came to the town I live in when I was in high school, and I went and listened to her.









Loooove her.









What an awesome experience.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Whenever I catch myself thinking "just words" I remind myself that according to my own beliefs, God spoke the entire universe into existance. Words have power!


I think I







you AM! :LOL


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Thank you.
I am not saying that white people shouldn't write books that are not about white people. That is just wrong. For a true writer, that is their lifeblood. There are white people who purposely corner the market on other cultures for the sole purpose of profiting from them. IMO, that is wrong.
Again, I am not saying they aren't good reads, but it is not okay what they have done.
I can't remember the guys name...George something, all his books are about 'Indians' and yet are for the sole purpose of painting the Indian as a noble, savage.

I have read Anne Rice and I would not consider her writing about black people to be perpetuating the racism, as her books are fiction and hopefully readers do not accept them as truth.
However, a non-fiction book, like my example about the Catholic who writes about Jewish customs/traditions, yet only attended one or two, is wrong to do so. It cannot be a truthful account about Jewish customs/traditions.
Arghh. I'm getting frustrated as I am not sure how to put into words my thoughts about such a subject.


Don't get frustrated! I'm totally getting what you're saying!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eemamahob*
I think I







you AM! :LOL

I'm finding myself to be quite a fan of yours lately as well. And your babies are soooooooo sweet.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Well---I love you BOTH eemamahob and AM! So there!


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

I just thought of a story from my childhood that i think would help us. It is pretty painful and harsh just to prepare you:

As a freshman in highschool, I was in charge of organizing the homecoming parade. On the afternoon of the parade, I was in the parking lot of the school trying to line up the floats in order so that they could be introduced in the stadium. I was doing it for some reason, with no bull horn and no help from any adults. No one was listening! At some point, the Black Student Union truck pulled up and their advisor, who was a loud, big-boned, female AA teacher whom i had only seen in the hall outside her classroom, yelled out the window something like,"GET OUT THE WAY YOU WHITE BITCH. You think you're in charge. You're not incharge." This woman was angry. I was mortified and would have broken down if i hadn't had a big job to continue with. Nothing came of the situation except that because of it, and because of one other situation where i was bullied by some AA girls on a bus, I have had to deal alot with a fear of black women in my adult life.

One thing that really stands out when i think back is that i didn't have any adults whom it was safe to talk to about this. I know if i told my parents they would march down to the school and make a huge issue of it with the principal or somethin. And they prided themselves on being "tolerant, liberal, and open-minded"! Intuitively, I knoew that wasn't right. I knew she was letting her anger out about something much bigger than me and that parade. I didn't have a grasp at what it was, but i didn't think it would get solved by my white parents going down there and trying to nail this woman.

I think alot about how different things might have been if i could have counted on my folks to be level headed and introspective about the event. If they had only been aware of their own racism, they could have helped me find the words to go back to that teacher and let her know personally that it wasn't ok how she treated me. Or maybe they would have done so. Maybe in the process we could have told her we were sorry for the hurt she has suffered to make her so mad at white people. I dunno.

What do you all think?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Are we on the same page? I don't want to misread what you are saying.

I hope so! It sounds like it!








I think it is difficult to 'see' the whole big picture with all the itty-bitty pieces that hold it in place.
I, too, am sure that I do not see all of it, either. It has only been recently in our shared histories that we as human beings have begun discussing such issues.
I, nor anyone, I think believes this is an issue that will be solved over night or even next year. Hopefully, our children will co-exist without fear of each other and without the power struggles, kwim?
I think that is an important goal to strive for, even if we don't make it, at least our children will be one step closer.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Hopefully, our children will co-exist without fear of each other and without the power struggles, kwim?
I think that is an important goal to strive for, even if we don't make it, at least our children will be one step closer.

























You said it, dear mamma.


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Ellen--

I think that I'm sorry that happened to you!

I also think you sound like you were then/are now very mature--knowing even at that time that it really wasn't about you--that it was really much bigger than that.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Hopefully, our children will co-exist without fear of each other and without the power struggles, kwim?
I think that is an important goal to strive for, even if we don't make it, at least our children will be one step closer.

That is my greatest hope for my children, Mama. That's why this topic is so important to me. You brought tears to my eyes with that!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Ellen- that was a very powerful story. I can see where you are coming from and you have me thinking. You are right that the woman had no right to be mean to you. No child, no adult, no human being should be hurt in any way, shape, or form.
It happens and has happened and will happen again. As parents how do we be there for our children when something like this occurs?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

so, jumping in late on the book discussion, if i was going to get a book explaining jewish traditions for my daughter, i would want it to have been written by someone who is jewish. We thrift most of our books, and we have a few that are marketed as native american myths. i try to see if they are written by native americans, because i definitely see an element of cultural appropriation for a white person to study, say, hopi traditions, and then write a kids book based on what she learned and make a bunch of money off of it.

so, what do you all think of "skin again" by bell hooks? it's very poetic, with neat pictures.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It happens and has happened and will happen again. As parents how do we be there for our children when something like this occurs?

I think it has to do with them trusting us to be kind and calm when we are feeling wildly emotional! It is a tall order to stay open and remember the good of all people when someone hurts your child..but i think it is essential. I don't think i could always trust my parents to NOT be arrogant. They embarrased me many times with their classism and racism. I think that just goes to show that children have such an incredible ability to know what is fair and just.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

This is probably not so helpful to add but...

Writing children's books is basically a no money business. You get practically nothing. Most people who write children's books *have to* have other jobs. I know because I've been looking into it for a long time. I have a children's book written but I'm just still too much of a wimp to actually submit it to a publisher.







:

So, I think, while what everyone's saying is really valid and is something to be aware of, it's not as extreme as people seeking out to write these children's books and do some appropriating just for money. No one writes children's books to make a bunch of money as far as I know.

Just thought I'd add that.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

That's why Spike Lee has a second job, other than writing Please Baby Please. :LOL


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

AM I love that book!


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

I just wanted to subscribe and say that I hear you all.... it is so very hard. I just try to be very inclusive with my kids. We have many books with stories of different cultures and people of different skin colors. We too live in a predominantly white area, and though we see different cultures and skin colors, it just isnt enough. Maybe it is... I grew up here and am not racist.. i dunno.... but to aid my children, like I said, I just try to be very inclusive and aware of the kinds of books we read. Also, I have to say I was so proud when I took my son out to buy my daughter a xmas gift and he picked out a brown baby for her. It is one of her favorites and she takes it with her a lot when we go out. I love this







.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Other than books, as a mother, I have made the conscious(?) decision to not exclude people from my children's lives. Let's see...I do exclude active alcoholics, drug abusers, people who are unhealthy, but that is not what I meant.

I have taken my children to any cultural events open to the public and even some that we were personally invited to. My children and I have friends who have come from all over the world, speak several other languages, etc.

I am not sure if I am making sense. :LOL
I guess I am trying to point out that there are other avenues besides books that are more valuable in teaching children about other cultures.

At a kiddie swimming pool, we saw a Hmoung family. Immediately, the eldest woman came over and gently took my baby and talked to her in Hmoung and was dipping her feet in the water. rather than freak out and yank my baby back, I just sat down next to her and let her teach my baby how not to be afraid of the water. I think because of my openness and the way I was raised I saw that she had only good intentions and wanted to share. Even though we had a language barrier, we still 'understood' each other. It was a good experience for me. Yes, I did have a twinge of fear at first, as I think any mother does when a stranger approaches and holds their arms out wanting your baby. With the language barrier, it wasn't like she could introduce herself, kwim? Nor could I introduce myself. Or at least not in the conventional sense of how introductions should work.








I continued to visit the pool and every time she was there we sat next to each other and I listened to her sing her songs and watched and learned.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

At a kiddie swimming pool, we saw a Hmoung family. Immediately, the eldest woman came over and gently took my baby and talked to her in Hmoung and was dipping her feet in the water. rather than freak out and yank my baby back, I just sat down next to her and let her teach my baby how not to be afraid of the water. I think because of my openness and the way I was raised I saw that she had only good intentions and wanted to share. Even though we had a language barrier, we still 'understood' each other. It was a good experience for me. Yes, I did have a twinge of fear at first, as I think any mother does when a stranger approaches and holds their arms out wanting your baby. With the language barrier, it wasn't like she could introduce herself, kwim? Nor could I introduce myself. Or at least not in the conventional sense of how introductions should work.








I continued to visit the pool and every time she was there we sat next to each other and I listened to her sing her songs and watched and learned.


whew. that is something I struggle with. I live in a big city, all sorts of different types of people here, and it does seem like peoplefrom different cultures have different bondaries about children. I freak out--internally at least--when people touch or try to hold my kid. But it's almost always people of colro, specifically latino/a, and asian (sorry to use such a broad term...) I struggle internally, between on the one hand, wanting to live in a culture where all adults are responisible for and care for all children, regardles sof anything,, and then on the other hand, working to teach my daughter that she is in charge of her body, and it's up to her who touches her or not.

the thing I've been doing is trying to talk to my kid about it. Because often things happen before I can even react, ie, the old white guy who patted her head while talking about her curls, or the latino bus driver who picked her up to get onto the bus. I hate to admit it, too, but sometimes I don't want to make a scene when I know someone means no harm. ( I hate to admit it because I feellike I shouldnever be afraid of making a scene when it comes to my kid, you know?) In these instances, she said she didn't like the guy touching her head, and would like me to tell people not to do that (and we talkedabout how she can also say No, don't touch me) and with the bus driver, she said afterwards that it was fine (we'd just been hanging out and chatting with him, so she was somewhat comfortable).


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Sadie, I know what you mean. I have had my babies taken from me and probably the first time or two it happened I was a little weirded out and had to hold back from starting a fight! :LOL But I just tried to stay in touch with how me and my child are feeling and I almost always get a good feeling about the person and their intentions and if I don't or my kid doesn't I just keep it short and simple "Nope" or "No thanks" and take my kid back and move on.

On the other hand when my oldest was younger we did have quite a problem with white people touching his afro. It was blonde and they just seemed to be really facinated with it. It actually annoyed me *a lot* and this was definitely not normal behavior for them culturally. It felt disprespectful to me and _especially_ to ds (not to mention the fact that they were totally messing it up too!). He told me he didn't like it (which I could tell b/c he'd get a mad face everytime they did it). I told him "If you ever don't like what someone's doing to you _tell_ them!" So...he would say very sternly w/a look that could kill "DON'T touch my hair!" I tried to look neutral but I was cracking up and very proud of him inside. I felt like it empowered him too. He's never afraid now to tell people when he doesn't like something they're doing. Oh, and their hand would move away from his hair so quick!

So, I know some kids are just too shy to say anything but perhaps you can try that with her, to speak out if she doesn't like what someone's doing.

Oh, and now that he's older, ds's afro is light brown and no one even tries to touch it anymore.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Thank you for your stories. I do understand about the difference between having personal boundaries regarding our bodies and do not want people to get confused about the difference between boundaries and interacting with people who are not the same as you or your child.
I, too, have taught my children about personal boundaries and if they do not want to hug someone, shake their hand, etc. to trust that inner instinct as a sign that the person may not have good intentions.

But to also be aware that people who are different do not necessarily mean they are bad or are going to hurt you.
I guess I am happy that I have never had television. The few times I watched it, the subtle messages it sends is just horrifying. How can a child of color learn to love themselves when in the media people of color are almost always shown as perpetrators of horrendous crimes, kwim?

Okay, the water is boiling for our lunch, I'll be back later...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I wanted to come back and add to the part about people who touch our children...I should say it is more like petting them. In those instances, I feel they are not trying to make a human connection with our children, but are coming from a place that sees our children as novelties...does that make sense?

My ds, his mom is Native American, his father is black and Native. He, also, was born with an almost blond little afro. I hated when people would come and pet his head. I would tell them that my son had a name, was in fact, a human being with feelings. I would ask them to please look him in the eyes and see him as a human being before they continued touching his hair. They always stopped themselves and would look him in the eyes. They would then apologize and most would then engage in some type of conversation that allowed all of us to interact as human beings, rather than being seen as less than human.

I know it probably sounds mean of me to direct someone to look my child in the eye, but I have learned that giving precise directions gets people to do so, without thought and then allows them to 'see' where they have gone wrong.

And, yes, there were a few times where the person got all mad and in most cases called us derogatory names. They obviously reacted out of fear as they had been probably taught to do their entire lives. In those cases I just smiled at them and walked away.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I wanted to come back and add to the part about people who touch our children...I should say it is more like petting them. In those instances, I feel they are not trying to make a human connection with our children, but are coming from a place that sees our children as novelties...does that make sense?

Yes!!! That is exactly it and exactly why it pissed me off. I also got the impression that they felt it was safe to "experiment" or some crap b/c I am white. They never did it when dh was around. You hit the nail on the head there. That is the difference.

Quote:

I know it probably sounds mean of me to direct someone to look my child in the eye, but I have learned that giving precise directions gets people to do so, without thought and then allows them to 'see' where they have gone wrong.
Very intriguing. I wish I had tried that.


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## Sistah_Mama_Friend (Sep 13, 2005)

It is uncomfortable to suddenly be in the minority or unable to speak the language myself, and it wouldn't hurt for both me and dd to be a little more brave about crossing cultural boundaries.

--AmyB[/QUOTE]

I know that the first message in this string gently requested that we people of color stay out of this one, but I can't help letting you all know that it is uncomfortable to ALWAYS be in the minority. My husband and I are pregnant with our first child, and I am finding it truly distressing to know that my child won't EVER have the option of stepping out of the role of "minority" in this country. Sure, we could live in black neighborhoods and send my child to black schools, but I can NEVER truly escape to the safety of being around people like me. We have no choice but to be brave in a country that has persecuted us for hundred of years for no reason but the color of our skin. It still happens today - in more subtle ways - but it happens EVERY DAY. That is what my child has to look forward to throughout her/his life.

I AM heartened to see that this discussion is taking place, but I must honestly say that I cannot identify with the struggle that you face. It is an example of white privilege to be in a position to even think of addressing this issue as an option. Some of us have no choice.


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## Sistah_Mama_Friend (Sep 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNikki*
Unfortunately, my grandmother and older aunts and uncles are racist, I've heard each of them use the N word more than I'd like to admit, they even refer to Native Americans as Prairie N*****s...even though we are Native American.. so this will be an issue we'll have to deal with as the girls get older.

Our "plan" is to just teach our children that everyone is equal, and everyone deserves respect, and that treating someone differently because of race, religion, sexual orientation isnt something to do.

I'm curious to know what you say or do when your family uses that kind of language - especially in front of your children.


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

This is really just a non-issue for me. I don't make a point of pointing out or commenting on people that are different. I refer to people as people, nothing more. I believe that the more of an issue you make of something, the more of an issue it becomes.

Of course, kids notice different things and if my son were to ask questions about people of different ethnicity, I would just say that they are a different race of people who originated from such and such.

My mom, however, makes a point of pointing out different races and my son picked up on this [sigh], and so for a while he referred to everyone with a darker skin tone as Chinese. One day we were in line at the grocery store and there was an African family in front of us and my son said that the boy was Chinese. I said he is not Chinese. My son asked what was he then. I said "He is a boy just like you." Thankfully the Chinese references ended after that.


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Hi - white mama of a Latina daughter checking into this thread. i haven't read every last word, but I just want to say to those of you trying to raise your white children up right: THANK YOU! My daughter will be at the playground, in school, etc. with your kids and we all have to be in this together. I am trying hard as a white parent to be up to speed on these issues and to be an advocate for my daughter. I appreciate there are other families out there who also care about racism and diversity issues.

Please don't wait until a certain age to let your child know about injustice in the world, including racism. My daughter can't wait until she's 10 or 12 to be prepared for what she will encounter, and it would be nice if she can be around other kids who are prepared to be allies to her. I have noticed that several times, very young white children have said (about my daughter): "She looks just like Dora!" This tells me that even very little children are able to generalize about race and skin color and hair and facial features. It would be nice to know that conversations at home are going farther than that.

Thanks also for all the great book suggestions. It seems like a lot of books I see have "diversity" in the background (i.e. one or two kids of color in a clump of white kids.)


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Warning-this will be off the top of my head from what I remember, so if I get something wrong, feel free to correct it.









Not too long ago Mexico was filled with 'Indians" The tribes there numbered more than 60 million people. They were used to being taken over and assimilated, so when the Spaniards and Church came, they were easily assimilated, since it was found more difficult to just kill them off like has been done in the U.S.

The dark-skinned people you see are in fact what you call 'Indians'.

Mexico government implemented what is called Paper Genocide. That is how the Census now asks for Hispanic (of Spanish origin/descent) or Non-Hispanic (no Spanish origin/descent). because of the assimilation and fear of death, many of the 'Indians' say they are Hispanic, Mexicano/a, Latino/a, Chicano/a (chicanos know they are indian and so have given themselves that name to identify with their indian people).

the U.S. picked up on this idea of Paper Genocide about ten years ago...more than that, sorry. Was it 96 census...or something when that occured. I remember when the Census people came to the house and the first time I had heard of the Hispanic vs Non-hispanic. The Census person told me since I was Native American to mark the Hispanic box...at first I was going to but something in my mind kept setting off a little warning bell...thankfully I had my Handy-dandy (too much Blue's Clue's :LOL ) Webster Dictionary and looked the meaning up.

i was pissed and wondered how many Native Americans had wrongly checked that box, there fore giving the Census misinformation.

The Census is used by the Government to determine how much funding certain things get. So, if they show less than 1% of the population as being 'Indian' then that is what they base their funding on, kwim? While in reality we make up way more than less than 1% of the population.

Okay, my point is that if you are the mother of a dark skinned child it is more prudent for you to find what their Tribe is. Unfortunately, for white parents, the grandmothers/grandfathers have learned out of fear not to divulge this information.

My own biological father was adopted and raised Lakota....my biological grandfather died the day before we arrived when he promised to tell us where we were really from. My biological grandmother is still very tightlipped and will only speak Spanish when we visit. After much digging and asking, we traced our bio-grandpa's village. his mother is Dine and his father is unknown...but most likely not 'Indian' because we do have a streak of blond hair that pops up every once in a while.
ie-all my children but one were born with almost black hair. My Sami was born with white hair, the kids made fun of her and called her the bald baby with no eyebrows. :LOL
I have a bio-aunt that was born the same way, white hair and now she has beautiful red/auborn type hair. Not strawberry blond, but that deep rich red, kwim?

okay, I have to go...I'll check back, later!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Hey, MITB- we were checking out some books about Native Americans today, and I thought of this thread, and looked at the author's biography to be sure the books we checked out were actually written by Native Americans- thanks for giving me something new to think about!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karinasuzy*
This is really just a non-issue for me.

Well, lucky you!
















Did you even read the thread?


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Hey, MITB- we were checking out some books about Native Americans today, and I thought of this thread, and looked at the author's biography to be sure the books we checked out were actually written by Native Americans- thanks for giving me something new to think about!










I did the same thing last night at our library-def. something I will look into everytime.


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## elmama (Oct 2, 2004)

Quote by sistah-mama-friend:
I know that the first message in this string gently requested that we people of color stay out of this one, but I can't help letting you all know that it is uncomfortable to ALWAYS be in the minority. My husband and I are pregnant with our first child, and I am finding it truly distressing to know that my child won't EVER have the option of stepping out of the role of "minority" in this country. Sure, we could live in black neighborhoods and send my child to black schools, but I can NEVER truly escape to the safety of being around people like me. We have no choice but to be brave in a country that has persecuted us for hundred of years for no reason but the color of our skin. It still happens today - in more subtle ways - but it happens EVERY DAY. That is what my child has to look forward to throughout her/his life.

I AM heartened to see that this discussion is taking place, but I must honestly say that I cannot identify with the struggle that you face. It is an example of white privilege to be in a position to even think of addressing this issue as an option. Some of us have no choice.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that reminder sistah-mama. We need to always remember that it is a privilege to "decide" whether or not to discuss this with our little ones. I hope it is a privilege EVERYONE can have some day. As the OP, I also wanted to clarify that I wasn't asking POC to stay out of the thread. It was more of a warning...like "Attention, Attention---WHITE PEOPLE DOING THEIR WHITE PEOPLE THING IN HERE. iT MIGHT BE ANNOYING AND PAINFUL SO ENTER AT YOUR own RISK!" But your presence and contributions are so welcome here!


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## Messed_Up_Mama (May 24, 2005)

I'm not sure how it happened, I don't recall my parents "teaching" us not to be racist, but we all grew up not judging people by the color of their skin. I knew I'd been able to pass that on to my own kids, when the two oldest each came to me at around 6 or 7 and asked why someone treated someone else badly. I recall the middle one the best. We were watching some talk show, this was back in 1988 or 89 I think. Some racist sexist man told a black woman that she was not qualified to do something BECAUSE she was a woman and black. My son looked at me and asked "Does he know her?" I had to tell him that I didn't know, but I didn't think so. "So how can he say that to her?" He just could not understand what difference her skin color or gender could possibly make. My oldest at about the same age said something along the same lines. My youngest is only 2, but I'm hoping that he will grow up like his big brothers. Of course the notice the color of a persons skin, the color of their hair, how tall they are, if they are male or female etc. but none of that really matters until they have actually met and gotten to know a person. KWIM?


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks for de-lurking to share! It sounds like your parents got it right. If you can think of what they did right... ask them maybe? and share here.... that would be great!


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## CindyC (Mar 22, 2002)

Not sure why you would exclude mamas of color from this discussion. Some of us live in Anglo neighborhoods and worry about the messages our babies are getting. In this case, I really think TV has helped immensely. I'm really grateful to various PBS shows that depict all kinds of nationalities.

One thing I've made sure to do is to gush over babies of all colors. I'm always saying, "What a cute baby!" or "What a pretty girl!" So far, I have not pointed out differences. Rachel is only 3, so she may have questions later. But I would like to think that my reaction (or non-reaction) shows that people of different colors is the norm. We were sending her to a mostly Anglo preschool and we kinda worried about it, but our public schools are very integrated.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

We've never broached it. I think watching certain programs on TV taught him that, he started playing with the AA neighbor kids when we moved here and the fact that they are a different race never came up.


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## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Patchfire*







:

That said, it wasn't until she started watching Reading Rainbow that she realised there were 'black' people and 'white' people. Until then, dh & I were 'pink people'!

My now 9 year old said that for years! We used to live in an area that was mostly white and hispanic. He didn't realize that it was a race issue, to him it was no different that being blond or brunette. He was pink, his 'aunt' Christa wasn't, not a big deal. But when we moved to another area, there are more skin tones here, lots of cultures and races. He really didn't understand why it was wrong to call dad's friend from work brown, or why 'brown' people would be called black, and why it would be rude compared to 'blond' or 'brunette'. It was hard to explain to a then 5 year old some of the history and reasons for it, and he still doesn't really get why anyone would think that someone was bad-different for just looking different. He just says 'but we all look different anyway, so what's the differnce?', and since I agree, I've just explained that sadly others haven't always seen it that way.

That said, I think living in a more multicultural area now is really a great learning experience. I grew up knowing little about other countries or cultures except for Mexico. Here, there are people from all over, and so much to learn about. That friend that brought all of this up, he was from a small island country, and really, what I found unique about him wasn't his color, it was his personality and the huge life differences of growing up so differently.


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## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Okay, my point is that if you are the mother of a dark skinned child it is more prudent for you to find what their Tribe is. Unfortunately, for white parents, the grandmothers/grandfathers have learned out of fear not to divulge this information.

Also, many times having a child with an Native American was looked down on by white communities, so it was safer to just lie about it. My mom has been trying for years to document and dig back into our family over this. My great grandmother seperated from her husband at one point and had a relationship with an Cherokee man. Some one on the reservation in I believe OK, but that is all we know. When she became pregnant, she went back to her husband and wouldn't ever discuss it again. So of course, we have little information to try and track who the father was, but at the time it was just to hard to socially have an 'Indian' child, a nice little white baby would be accepted much better.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apryl Srissa*
But when we moved to another area, there are more skin tones here, lots of cultures and races. He really didn't understand why it was wrong to call dad's friend from work brown, or why 'brown' people would be called black, and why it would be rude compared to 'blond' or 'brunette'.

When my children entered school and the kids asked them if they were half black or whatever, my kids of course, couldn't understand how someone was black or half-black, or white, or yellow. I made sure to tell them that people were not to be differentiated by supposed color of skin, but that everyone had a name and to ask them their name. I always let my children introduce themselves and conversate with people. Obviously, I was right there, so if the other person started talking about something inappropriate(never happened, yet) I could end the conversation, kwim?

I, also, think it helped that their Grandfather is African American and speaks Swahili to them. We also have Somalian, Ethiopian, and Nigerian friends that speak their different languages.
Hmong, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese friends that all speak their different languages.
My children have met and heard so many different languages, people, traditions, etc.

They have been victims of racism/prejudice, but have chalked it up to mean, cruel people, not that a certain race of people was responsible. I, truly hope they never do, but they will face many more incidences of racism/prejudice.
This last week my dd and ds were told that their Grandpa is not their grandpa, because they do not look black like he does. What is that? Stereotyping?
They are both 9 yo. Just sad that other children feel the need to say sh!t like that to other children.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Hi, folks...anti-racist parents...

I wanted to let you know about a new board has recently been formed at www.hellakittens.com. It is a private board for the time being with a unique purpose, so please come over and check out our statement of purpose, Mission Statement, and User Agreement, and, if it appeals to you and you think you'd be a good fit, submit an application. We have an application process in place because we are building the board membership in a careful and intentiional way.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CindyC*
One thing I've made sure to do is to gush over babies of all colors. I'm always saying, "What a cute baby!" or "What a pretty girl!"

That's probably helpful with a 3-year-old...and it's soooo easy. How can you not gush over babies? They're all so adorable.

This has been an interesting thread to read. It gives me a lot to think about. DS1 has always noticed skin colour just the way he notices eye colour or hair colour. Aside from my sister, he doesn't have anyone around who would make racial slurs or hateful comments - and she's quit doing so in my presence, at least (my sister is extremely self-centered and irrational, so I don't know if she's quit thinking that way completely or not). But, we really haven't talked about it in a long time. I used to when he was really young, but I think I subconsciously figured "the job was done" because he's always had friends from different cultural groups. Maybe he and I should have some more talks about this.

I've never taken him to any cultural events, because I don't really go to anything like that myself. And, that includes events that are derived from my own cultural background (whatever that might be - I'm part Cree, and 8th generation Canadian on the "white" side). I don't like crowds. Maybe I should attend a few events - we have lots of opportunities here...Chinese New Year, Caribbean Days, the local potlatch. I think it would be good for him.

And, thanks for the links to the supplies. I think I'll get dd some multicultural dolls. She doesn't need to form the equation that "white=normal".


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

bumping


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Thank yoy Mitb.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

OK DS is still too young for me to be on this board--I was trying to get to Toddlers and accidentally ended up here....but it is just the right place for me to be today!









DS (click links in bottom you'll see the whole family







) is half-black, half-white. I HOPE I'm already teaching him about racism by the fact that we attend a mosque where he plays with black kids, white kids, Egyptian kids, Saudi kids, etc. etc. etc. In my close circle of friends, there are white and black people. (duh, lol look at dh too) His best friends are 2 kids who are half Native-American. And there's the teeny little fact that he's being raised Muslim in a VERY Christian area....

I've already gotten questions and comments about DS like a friends little girl just flat out asked me one day "Is he black?" and I said "yes he is, he's white too" because I could just see that coming....she looked at him and said "I don't see any whiteness..."
Said best-friend, aged 3, commented one day that ZZ had "hair like Pop-Pop's" and I just said "Yes he does"







(It's true...their "Pop-Pop' is their African step-grandad really, but he's Pop-Pop just the same. To ALL of them, even MY son, LOL)

Now here is a question I have. I havent' come across it myself yet, but I can see it coming....with a half-black, half-white child, when they ask you what race they are, what do you say? I just had someone tell me today they got asked that about their kid, and they went with 'black'. But I kind of feel that denies half of who he is just as much as saying he's white. WHY do they have to just check ONE box???????


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
Hi...I'm not excluding people of color from this discussion, I just think us white people have different parenting issues when it comes to raising our children in a racist culture.

Just wondering, how do you help your children NOT to learn racism. I happen to live in a pretty white area and it is a challenge for me to balance all the messages my children are getting in the media. How do you talk to really young children about racism? Anybody know any good books or have experience on this topic?

Well, we're Quaker, and we believe that the light of God is in everyone, male and female, black and white, straight and gay. There are lots of children's stories about Quakers and the Underground Railroad, which gave us opportunity to talk about slavery, about why it was wrong to treat another person with the light in them as if they were inferior.

We also stress that we're all related to every other living thing on the planet, and I'll point to people of all types when we're driving just to emphasize the point: "Are you related to that person? How about to that one?"

Until she was about 2.5-3, she didn't appear to "notice" racial differences among people, so I didn't point them out. When she did, I would try to respond in very positive terms, like, "Yes, that woman has brown skin. Isn't she pretty -- like dark chocolate!" or "Yes, those are called 'dreadlocks.' Doesn't his hair look cool!" In answers to why people look different, I've given the basic Evolution and Environment 101 -- more sun=more melanin=survival.

We've also tried to pick out children's books that postively depict children of color, like the absolutely wonderful The Boy and the Ghost, by Robert D. San Souci. We also try to see movies depicting POC in positive lights, like _Akeelah and the Bee_.

Overall, I know that there's a great deal of racism and I know that there's a great deal I don't know about the social inequity and culture of people who have been historically discriminated against, but at least I'm trying to do what I can. Any suggestions for anything else??


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
Do you, generic you, think it is important for a child to know their ancestry?

A strong "yes" to this one, but by "ancestry," I'm digging a little further back than the norm. National Geographic is sponsoring a genographic project to trace the genetic lineage of all living humans worldwide, and to that end, they're collecting gene samples from around the world. Basically, if you submit a sample, you can trace your "deep ancestry," that is, where your folks went after they left Africa (or where in Africa they went if they stayed in Africa).

We did this as part of a way to study genetics and evolution, but also to show that yeah, we're all branches on the same tree; we ALL came from Africa; we're all related.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If white people had not created racism in the first place, it would not exist today.
.

Mama, with all due respect, I've got to contend that racism probably existed long before there were white or black people. Given the fact that people in a given group tend to think that they're better than or superior to other people in visibly different groups (or even not that visibly different), I have a feeling that racism has been with us since the days when the Cro-Magnons wiped out the Neanderthals.

Oh, and FWIW, the Neanderthals were blonde and white, as recent science has persuasively argued, basing their arguments on the fact that this group almost exclusively inhabited the periglacial areas of Europe and Asia.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

My parents were extremely liberal (ex-hippies turned professionals) and we were raised with this utopian ideal of 'all people are the same, only the color of their skin is different'







.

That was great. Only problem was, I never knew anybody who wasn't middle class white (smallish midwestern city). When I was in my early 20s, I moved to Cincinnati, which is 40% african american. I remember when the realtor was driving me around to look at houses and I asked 'what holiday is it?'
'What holiday? What do you mean?'
'Yeah. Why is everyone off of work today?'

I had never seen groups of adults just hanging out on their porches or on street corners in the middle of a work day!

There are a lot of different cultures in America. Sometimes these cultures fall along racial lines, sometimes not. I'd only been exposed to one: middle class midwestern. There are many others.

It took me a painful transition to come to terms with this. For instance, black culture can be much _louder_ than WASP. "HEY GIRL! What you doin'??" It seemed uncivilized to me. It irritated me, and I found myself attributing characteristics to individuals based on my prior experiences of people of similar appearance. I was _racist_, even though I didn't want and tried hard not to be.

It''s tough. Really the only way to keep your kids truly open to other cultures is to expose them to them. It's not easy, but it's well worth it







.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I found myself attributing characteristics to individuals based on my prior experiences of people of similar appearance. I was _racist_, even though I didn't want and tried hard not to be.
.

Wow. Thank you for saying that so well. Not easy to admit. I am also a person struggling with my own racism. I sometimes catch myself and remind myself.... different does not need to be better or worse, it can simply be different. I can celebrate the difference without judging it. And if I trry hard I can teach that to my daughter.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

I had a simular upbringing - I seriously in all reality thought that the "n word" was an old term used in Huck Finn and that no one would be stupid enough today to judge another person based on the color of their skin. Boy when I went to college was I in for a rude awakening. To this day I cannot wrap my head around racism. I know it exists, I know how awful it is- I just cannot understand it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Mama, with all due respect, I've got to contend that racism probably existed long before there were white or black people. Given the fact that people in a given group tend to think that they're better than or superior to other people in visibly different groups (or even not that visibly different), I have a feeling that racism has been with us since the days when the Cro-Magnons wiped out the Neanderthals.

Oh, and FWIW, the Neanderthals were blonde and white, as recent science has persuasively argued, basing their arguments on the fact that this group almost exclusively inhabited the periglacial areas of Europe and Asia.

I don't buy that. It is easy to absolve present day racism by saying stuff like that. Trying to say racism has existed forever only plays into the belief that it is okay. It has not existed, it was studied, given a term, and used as a tool to dominate, enslave, and commit genocide.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

While I respect the spirit and the science behind "we're all one race" and "we're all connected", in real life those sentiments don't work. To me, living in Virginia, they still exude that air of privilege. My children cannot avoid acknowledging the impact of race. They can't afford to. They have to be grounded in the reality in order to effectively confront it.

It would be so much more powerful if, instead of denying the social definitions of race, we taught this generation to actively oppose racism, to recognize it even in the most subtle form, and to say simply and firmly that it's not acceptable.

Ultimately, someday, we might be able to live as one race, but as long as people are denied equal rights because of their skin color (and they are, regardless of laws) we have to recognize racism and teach our children how to take a stand and push back, even if it doesn't seem to directly affect them.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I don't buy that. It is easy to absolve present day racism by saying stuff like that. Trying to say racism has existed forever only plays into the belief that it is okay. It has not existed, it was studied, given a term, and used as a tool to dominate, enslave, and commit genocide.

I by no means absolve _any_ racism, past or present, by saying it's always existed -- but I think it always has. If you want further proof, look to the behavior of primates toward other primates who aren't part of their tribe. I don't see that as far different from racist behavior, which, to my mind, really doesn't rise above the level of the snarling piss-contesting animal in the first place.

I honestly believe that racism is an outgrowth of animal behavior, but I also believe it is incumbent upon us as _humans_, and in some ways (I hope) able to think with an ethical and moral clarity that other animals don't (to the best of our knowledge) possess, to treat others with the same kindness and respect we would treat our own children. In other words, I think we can act with more kindness to our human kindred than our primate relatives do to theirs; I think that's what _makes_ us human and the failure to do so makes us less so.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I by no means absolve _any_ racism, past or present, by saying it's always existed -- but I think it always has. If you want further proof, look to the behavior of primates toward other primates who aren't part of their tribe.

That is not racism. And I am appalled that you would even suggest that any animal is able to be racist. Race was 'created' by a person, it is not an inherent behavior. Human beings are not born racist, it is taught/learned.

Scientifically, there is no such thing as different races between human beings.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
While I respect the spirit and the science behind "we're all one race" and "we're all connected", in real life those sentiments don't work. To me, living in Virginia, they still exude that air of privilege. My children cannot avoid acknowledging the impact of race. They can't afford to. They have to be grounded in the reality in order to effectively confront it.

It would be so much more powerful if, instead of denying the social definitions of race, we taught this generation to actively oppose racism, to recognize it even in the most subtle form, and to say simply and firmly that it's not acceptable.

Ultimately, someday, we might be able to live as one race, but as long as people are denied equal rights because of their skin color (and they are, regardless of laws) we have to recognize racism and teach our children how to take a stand and push back, even if it doesn't seem to directly affect them.

hear, hear.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

We live in the country around mostly whites but the kids are in a private school with mixed races and I've never had a problem with this.

My kids are just taught to respect ALL people (including handicapped) from the time they are very young. Plus, since they both went to daycares, preschools, our church mainly that also had people and friends of ours of varying races they are just used to it anyway I guess.







It's just never been an issue with us.

FWIW, I don't feel that racism was started by white people or any other race. How can anyone know for sure? We don't know what it was like ions ago so no one can comment on that correctly.








Even if racism didn't start back when white people had black slaves, it would have started at some point, that's a given.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
We live in the country around mostly whites but the kids are in a private school with mixed races and I've never had a problem with this.

My kids are just taught to respect ALL people (including handicapped) from the time they are very young. Plus, since they both went to daycares, preschools, our church mainly that also had people and friends of ours of varying races they are just used to it anyway I guess.







It's just never been an issue with us.
.

So, your kids are bi- or multiracial? I think that's wonderful if they've never experienced racism or if you've never noticed it directed towards them.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
So, your kids are bi- or multiracial? I think that's wonderful if they've never experienced racism or if you've never noticed it directed towards them.

We are a white family. But I've never really thought of it at all but I guess they just see past skin color. They have both always attended our church since birth and that includes white, hispanic, black, any race you can think of. They just don't see "color" I guess is what I should say, because they don't. They see people.

I do remember when my daughter was 3 yrs old she did (one time) refer to a kid in class as "the" brown girl when she was trying to tell me who the kid was she was talking about and I instructed her that it was wrong. She never brought that type of thing up again. My son, however, can talk about a kid in his class or that he met at a camp and refer to the kid by name and I won't know their race until I actually meet them one day myself. I like that. It wasn't that way at all when I was a kid, sadly enough. We all just referred to people as black or white. Did you see that "black girl" or look at that "white girl" over there. I think that's just uncalled for.


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## Cajunmomma (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm coming into this late, and I'll admit I haven't had time to read the whole thread (I will as soon as I can), and I don't mean to hijack the whole thing....But what can you do when you don't have much opportunity to meet people of other races/ethnic groups/etc? We homeschool here, and there are very few homeschoolers here who aren't white. Actually, it's kind of funny, because my husband is Hispanic but nobody ever thinks of him that as a member of a minority (including me). We have a very diverse population in the city we live in--we have a university with people from many different countries here--but I'm stumped as to how to meet them.

Whenever we talk about it, my kids seem genuinely bemused about why people would judge others by their races. They seem pretty colorblind--but who am I to be able to tell? They're good kids, but are pretty priviledged in the lives they lead.

Can someone help? You can pm me if I'm way too OT.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
FWIW, I don't feel that racism was started by white people or any other race. How can anyone know for sure?

Yes, it was. There are plenty of threads on MDC that detail the history of racism/origin of racism. It was created by a white man...I would suggest doing some searches if you would like to know more, as I am not interested in getting into it on this thread, as this thread was created to help 'white' parents actively be anti-racist.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

We are a white family. But I've never really thought of it at all but I guess they just see past skin color. ...They just don't see "color" I guess is what I should say, because they don't. They see people.
I guess I was confused...growing up in a white family myself, in a racially diverse community, with friends of all races, I never recognized racism or the impact it had, either.

I think your perspective changes when you lose the luxury of "seeing past skin color."

Quote:

I do remember when my daughter was 3 yrs old she did (one time) refer to a kid in class as "the" brown girl when she was trying to tell me who the kid was she was talking about and I instructed her that it was wrong.
There's really nothing wrong with your children using skin color as a descriptive attribute. There's nothing racist in saying that a child is brown or in recognizing that someone's skin is different--it's what you do with that recognition that matters. My children are brown; they describe themselves that way. They use a brown crayon when they draw themselves or their father or their grandparents.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cajunmomma*
But what can you do when you don't have much opportunity to meet people of other races/ethnic groups/etc?
We have a very diverse population in the city we live in--we have a university with people from many different countries here--but I'm stumped as to how to meet them.

Can someone help? You can pm me if I'm way too OT.

You stated the answer right in your post. There is plenty of opportunity for you to meet other people, you have actively chosen not to.
Attend the cultural events in your area, say Hi to a person, they are human beings afterall.
It involves actively putting aside your fears and speaking to others. Introduce yourself, ie-"Hi, my name is....what is yours?"
I am sure you have experience meeting a white person who had different religion/thoughts/ideas than you and yet, you were still able to actively engage in conversation, kwim?


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cajunmomma*
But what can you do when you don't have much opportunity to meet people of other races/ethnic groups/etc? We homeschool here, and there are very few homeschoolers here who aren't white. Actually, it's kind of funny, because my husband is Hispanic but nobody ever thinks of him that as a member of a minority (including me). We have a very diverse population in the city we live in--we have a university with people from many different countries here--but I'm stumped as to how to meet them.

Can someone help? You can pm me if I'm way too OT.

I am white, with a 3 y.o. white DD. I agree that it can be very difficult to expose your DC to a range of different people if you live in an isolated or homogeneous area. If you live in an area that is diverse, however, you are lucky! There are opportunities galore for you if you will only stretch beyond your comfort zones.

Can you look beyond your home schooling social group for social/educational opportunities? I have arranged an exchange with a Latina woman so we can teach one another English/Spanish. I don't really have the $$ for Spanish lessons and have looked high and low for someone (and happily, have finally found her) with whom I can trade language lessons. The best part is (which is what I was looking for) she has a 10 year old daughter who loves little ones, so I can bring along my 3 y.o. DD and we can all interact in eachother's languages.

If your city is diverse, I am certain there are playgrounds full of families of all skin tones. Go find 'em! You may not meet close friends, but your DC will have the opportunity to interact and play with kids of different cultures/races. Do your local kids museums or zoos have classes? I find these types of urban kid-focused classes are full of a diverse array of children.

If your city is diverse, I bet there are all kinds of festivals and celebrations. My city has, among other things, a Cape Verdean independence day festival, an African heritage festival, a Dominican Republic Pride day, a Chinese new year celebration, and on and on.

Ditto with interesting ethnic restaurants and markets. We go to a Cambodian restaurant where much to the delight of the Cambodian waitstaff DD shovels in nime chow and knocks back a soup full of cilantro, red pepper flakes, mushrooms and garlic. She is curious about the shrine they have there and the waiters are very eager to share information with us/her. Through our casual conversations with one friendly waiter, we got invited to see his daughter perform a traditional Cambodian dance with her dance troupe and to a celebratory feast afterwards.

These are not forced, "let's go out and meet the non-white people!" excursions, but rather wonderful adventures and opportunities to explore the rich diversity of cultures around us. Although I dislike living in an urban setting and long for several acres of a self-sustaining garden, I love the diversity of our area. DD is in a pre-school which is roughly about half white. She has friends of all different races and it offers great opportunities for discussion. I absolutely think kids notice color as soon as they can SEE. (DD was verbal from a young age and at 20 months asked me if a very dark-skinned friend of mine had a 'skin boo-boo.') I think it's important not to shy away from kids' use of skin colors as descriptors or to treat that as somehow "bad."

Absolutely agree with many PP who have pointed out that as white parents we get to CHOOSE when and how we will expose our kids to the notions of race/racism - and what a luxury that is. It is a privilege I am painfully aware of and and a responsibility I do not take lightly. We have had a few conversations about who MLK was, and how some people don't like others simply because of the color of their skin, and how sad and terrible that is. I'm not content to teach tolerance - I work very hard at trying to raise a child who is more understanding, more open, more loving, more embracing of differences than I was raised to be.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Mommy68- I really think you need to think about the priviledge you have to "see past" skin color, as a white person.

Going back to reading....


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That is not racism. And I am appalled that you would even suggest that any animal is able to be racist. Race was 'created' by a person, it is not an inherent behavior. Human beings are not born racist, it is taught/learned.

Scientifically, there is no such thing as different races between human beings.

Mama, you're way too smart to have misunderstood me, so let's do each other a favor and play straight with each other. To clarify for anyone who might genuinely have misunderstood, I didn't say "animals were racist." I said, using the example of primates, that racism probably originated in primate behavior. All-out "racism," like other complex and abstract ideas such as "love" or "duty" or "morality" probably evolved from animal behaviors as well, but as with racism, I don't believe animals "love" or feel "duty" or a sense of "morality" in the fullest sense that humans experience or think of those concepts, but we can see the roots or origins of all of them in the way that animals act.

Going back to my example of early humans, I still stand by my original contention that even as early as the overlapping time in which we have both Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals competing for largely the same territory and prey (and probably earlier), we have an example of one group wiping out the other group. I obviously wasn't there, but in what way _wasn't_ this one example of "racism"?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I said, using the example of primates, that racism probably originated in primate behavior.

How, when they have no understanding of race nor racism?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
All-out "racism," like other complex and abstract ideas such as "love" or "duty" or "morality" probably evolved from animal behaviors as well, but as with racism, I don't believe animals "love" or feel "duty" or a sense of "morality" in the fullest sense that humans experience or think of those concepts, but we can see the roots or origins of all of them in the way that animals act.

Again, racism cannot be found in our bodies as a chemical reaction, such as love. Studies have proven that all mammals do feel love. Ever see the primate mother who carries her dead baby for weeks?? How about the lioness mourning the death of her cubs?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Going back to my example of early humans, I still stand by my original contention that even as early as the overlapping time in which we have both Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals competing for largely the same territory and prey (and probably earlier), we have an example of one group wiping out the other group. I obviously wasn't there, but in what way _wasn't_ this one example of "racism"?

They did not wipe out the other group based upon erroneous studies to prove they were superior. They did not practice racism, as it did not exist then. They wiped out the other group for many reasons, but none of which were racism.
Please, read the other threads, as I do not want to take away from parents who actively want to end racism. Or we can start a new thread, if you want.


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## DoulaClara (Jan 3, 2006)

MamaInTheBoonies and Charles Baudelsire, I would also be interested in another thread (or Mama, please direct me to the thread you are talking about).

This is a subject I have been studying for a while- something I've found compelling are the sources sited in the book Eve's Seed by Robert S. McElvaine. While the book is mostly about women and their evolving roles throughout prehistory and history, it remarks several times about how early tribes automatically resorted to an "us vs. them" mentality, something McElvaine calls "Otherness." In other words, the family ties and bonds within their own tribe sort of bred a feeling of fear/mistrust towards other tribes first nearby, and later extending outward, based on differences. This to me seems to show that racism was originated out of fierce tribalism of early mankind, ans sort of shows no race. I feel that a statement of "white people started racism" would be at best difficult to prove.

Clara


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
How, when they have no understanding of race nor racism?

Because the basis of racism is difference -- difference between skin colors, difference between hair colors, difference between smells, heights, appearance. In modern culture, racism uses difference as a reason or justification for one group to "prove" its superiority to the other group and justify that group's economic exploitation, social ostracism, or outright genocide. Primates distinguish between "us" and "them," and that in a nutshell is the seed of the more complex racism humans practice.

Quote:

Again, racism cannot be found in our bodies as a chemical reaction, such as love. Studies have proven that all mammals do feel love. Ever see the primate mother who carries her dead baby for weeks?? How about the lioness mourning the death of her cubs?
Duty can't be found in our bodies as a chemical reaction. As far as love, I'm not arguing animals don't feel it. I'm saying we have a more complex understanding of it, at least to the best of our knowledge. Maybe if or when we can communicate more effectively with animals, we'll find out that their emotions are as complex as ours, but until we have that data, we have to base our conclusions on the data we _do_ have. I think our written and spoken language allows us to experience a greater and more complex emotional range, but that's another topic.

Quote:

They did not wipe out the other group based upon erroneous studies to prove they were superior. They did not practice racism, as it did not exist then. They wiped out the other group for many reasons, but none of which were racism.
I am not convinced of this, MITB. Each group was capable of complex thought and societal organization (which almost always involves some degree of hierarchy, or at least of specialization within a group), as the artwork left by the Cro-Magnons suggests and the burial rituals of the Neanderthals hints at. In short, they could certainly think in terms of "us" and "them" and very probably in terms of "lower" and "higher," "better" and "worse."

We have no genetic record of genetic union of Neanderthals with Cro-Magnons -- if they did interbreed, their offspring did not contribute to us. They lived in overlapping territory for a long time -- it is highly unlikely that each was unaware of the other. One reason why they didn't mate is pretty obvious: they looked very, very different to each other, and almost always, different=bad. Probably, each thought the other was hideous -- Neanderthals probably were disgusted by the bubble-head craniums and chin knobs of Cro-Magnons, who were probably disgusted by the flat foreheads and projecting jaws of their Neanderthal cousins.

Okay - so they were complex thinkers, they were likely aware of each other, they didn't mate (or trade, or have social interactions) ...and one species wiped out the other. Racism would be very consistent, in my opinion, with this event. I'm sure each group thought that they were superior to the other, and each group had good reasons for thinking so. Environment and changing climate favored the newcomers over the ancient ones and the ancient ones died and the newcomers became you and me.

Quote:

Please, read the other threads, as I do not want to take away from parents who actively want to end racism. Or we can start a new thread, if you want.








I want to end racism. To me, that starts by acknowledging the degree to which I'm privileged by my race, even in small and seemingly insignificant ways, but it also includes recognizing that racism in some form is an ancient human reaction to others like us. That is by NO means to excuse it, only to explain it and understand it...and by doing so, be able to step away from it and say, "I am not limited like my primate ancestors to valuing only the people in my immediate tribe. I can acknowledge kinship with many different people. I can value those who look differently, who think differently, and recognize that we are all kin."

Hope that helps.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I've been reading since my first post on this thread...(I know, but I don't have TIME to go back and read 6 other pages!)

and as someone who will, I'm sure, someday, be dealing with people being racist toward my child, or my child may someday witness and ask about somebody being racist toward his daddy and I (I would HOPE we've evolved beyond the days of prejudice toward inter-racial marriages, but...)

I've thought about it....and I'm taking each thing as it comes. So far, the kids who've said anything about him were first off--only 3 years old, and second, just pointing out the obvious or asking a simple question. (Look, they're the same color! (







yeah, they are!) Is he black? (yes. His daddy is too.) His hair is just like Pop-Pop's!)

So far, I just answer the question or go along with the statement--it's not WRONG for them to ask or to notice things like 2 children with the same color skin and point it out. Would you say it's 'wrong' for your child to say 'look Susie has brown hair like me?" Most people wouldn't. I really don't see why it's any different for kids to ask about skin color--it's just another attribute, some people have the same color skin as you, others do not.

Kids are naturally curious. The beautiful thing about young children is, when they're asking, they *don't* know yet--about races, racism, discrimination. I'm a firm believer in answering questions honestly, but simply, or talking about what they point out--as long as it's not inappropriate. ("Mommy, I don't like xxx-colored people" might need a discussion about why that's not a good thing to think. "Look, they're the same color" is just an observation. Child probably just wants you to acknowledge you see what they see.)

I think if I were to come across a situation where someone was saying it was 'wrong' for their child to ask or comment on my child's looks because he's bi-racial, I'd probably step in and answer the question myself. Especially if he was really watching the whole interchange. Why? Because it's my job to teach him that there is nothing wrong with being who he is, and that starts by NOT ignoring what makes him different from probably 95% of the population where we live.

I think that ignoring comments like that or telling kids it's 'wrong' to notice skin color is where we start to teach that there's something 'wrong' with being the color you are. Honestly, think about it...if it was eye color or hair color the child was commenting on, would anyone say it's wrong to notice that? Probably not. Skin, we have some sort of hang-up with. WHY? It's just another thing that makes us unique...some people are darker, some are lighter.
I believe that if we don't make a big deal out of it or put any 'taboos' on questions related to skin color, our kids won't make it an issue either.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
There's really nothing wrong with your children using skin color as a descriptive attribute. There's nothing racist in saying that a child is brown or in recognizing that someone's skin is different--it's what you do with that recognition that matters. My children are brown; they describe themselves that way. They use a brown crayon when they draw themselves or their father or their grandparents.

But, let's admit it now, if a white kid goes around calling black kids "black or brown" then they are going to be labeled as kids who will most likely grow up racist OR other adults will say "well we know what that kid is being taught at home" solely because they point out people of color. I know this can happen because I was a kid once and I remember.

So I WILL, in fact, tell my daughter that calling someone brown or black (or even white for that matter) is inappropriate until she begins to understand it. I just don't know like the way it sounds. We all have names for a reason and she will be taught to refer to people by their names.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zakers_mama*
I think if I were to come across a situation where someone was saying it was 'wrong' for their child to ask or comment on my child's looks because he's bi-racial, I'd probably step in and answer the question myself. Especially if he was really watching the whole interchange. Why? Because it's my job to teach him that there is nothing wrong with being who he is, and that starts by NOT ignoring what makes him different from probably 95% of the population where we live.

I think that ignoring comments like that or telling kids it's 'wrong' to notice skin color is where we start to teach that there's something 'wrong' with being the color you are. er.

I totally disagree with you on that! The reason being is that people of other races already think white people are racist if they refer to them by color or attributes, cultural likes/dislikes, etc. So now I guess because I'm a white person I have to deal with the fact that children of mixed races are going to think I'm a bad person for telling my white child NOT to refer to them as a brown child or mixed raced child.

I tell you what, white people just can't win in this situation.







: If it's not one thing it's another. It's absolutely silly to assume that a white person is ignoring your child solely because he is a mix of two races. Have you ever stopped to think that they may be afraid to look or notice or say anything simply because they are afraid of how YOU, the parent will take their look or comment. They can mean it in a nice way and the parent will somehow twist it to mean something else (judging by what you are saying in your post). I mean come on, where does this end?? Now people are offended if people say nothing to them about their skin color or try NOT to notice them or ignore them and not make a big deal out of it? You can't have it both ways. Give me a break. Just live life and stop being so worried about what people think anyway.

I'm overweight and if I went out of the house wondering what every single person thought of me on the streets I'd be a depressed, sad and angry person.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

But, let's admit it now, if a white kid goes around calling black kids "black or brown" then they are going to be labeled as kids who will most likely grow up racist OR other adults will say "well we know what that kid is being taught at home" solely because they point out people of color.
No, I will know what that child is being taught at home if 1. there's a mom hissing, "shhh. We don't call people _brown_. That's not nice." or 2. the child goes round Robin Hood's barn trying to describe a child without mentioning color.

When I was teaching, the most racist teachers were the ones who, when trying to describe a child, would glance around furtively and whisper "black" in the middle of the sentence.

A person's color is not a stereotype. It's part of who they are. Describing a person as brown is not the same as proclaiming that "all black people like fried chicken."


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
But, let's admit it now, if a white kid goes around calling black kids "black or brown" then they are going to be labeled as kids who will most likely grow up racist OR other adults will say "well we know what that kid is being taught at home" solely because they point out people of color. I know this can happen because I was a kid once and I remember.

So I WILL, in fact, tell my daughter that calling someone brown or black (or even white for that matter) is inappropriate until she begins to understand it. I just don't know like the way it sounds. We all have names for a reason and she will be taught to refer to people by their names.









I don't agree. I am raising my kid's anti racist, they have biracial family as well. Someone "having brown skin" when coming from a child is like having brown hair. I have never heard POC complain or judge when a small child mentions theier brown skin, in a descriptive or positive way.

I would never hisss at my child "we don't call people brown". I might say its nicer to pint out things that make us similar instead of things that make us different, etc." But once its heard by others how does _hissing_ help?


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

I tried, really tried, to step away, take a few deep breaths and let it go. But I can't. This is about my children and I tend to get a bit defensive (read: angry) when someone sugarcoats or twists reality beyond recognition because, in the end, it perpetuates ignorance.

Describing an individual by skin color is not the same as gawking or pointing out every person of color. To a small child, using the range of skin colors is simply descriptive. It is no different than describing another person's hair. For an older person, being able to easily refer to another individual as black or white in the context of a casual conversation and in the absence of racial stereotyping, can frequently demonstrate how comfortable that person is with others. In deliberately stepping around color, a person only proves their discomfort.

And the constant presentation of the "poor pitiful white folk" card serves as an attempt to deflect attention away from the problem; instead, it shows that an individual isn't ready or willing to recognize the true impact racism continues to have on this country and on our children. This has nothing to do with "caring what other people think." If that was an issue, I wouldn't have even started dating my husband over 20 years ago, in an area of Virginia that was far from comfortable seeing us together. This has to do with confronting the bigotry that has gotten firmly under our country's skin, acknowledging its presence and its impact, and working to push it out. It's about making this country safer for our children. "Just live life"







: is, again, a luxury.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Excellent post Melanie, ITA.

Mommy68, I so don't like and don't agree with your attitude!


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Missy, yet another excellent post. So sad when some women don't get it.

Mommy68- your luxury to "just live life" is called PRIVILEDGE. Read up on it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
A person's color is not a stereotype. It's part of who they are. Describing a person as brown is not the same as proclaiming that "all black people like fried chicken."









: My best friend, who is cauacsion and has beautiful pale skin, teaches at a school for Native children. Many of the other Teachers would say things like, "Girl, you need to get a tan!", or, "Woman, don't you ever get out into the sun?"
My friend was starting to feel quite uncomfortable. So, with the next onslaught, she told them, "You can spend years hiding from the sun and you will never have beautiful pale skin like me."

My point is, skin color does not constitute who we are as a human being.
There is nothing wrong or bad about having differing shades of colors of our skin.

I know 'white' people who are darker than me, and yet, they never feel the brunt of racism directed at them.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

Well I haven't read all the replies.

BUT - My grandfather was a racist - this was not something I knew until I was an adult.

I grew up in a small, predominantly white town. but there was never even a mention of race or skin colors or differences in people. I never heard a racist thing in our house - not a slur and not a joke.

It wasn't until I moved to Texas that I realized that racism was alive and well - until I was 23 years old it never even dawned on me that people see people as skin colors and not as people. Prior to that I had a boyfriend who was black, a best friend who was hispanic - and it literally never - NEVER occured to me to think about their skin color.

I think it's the way kids are raised. I think for children race, truly, is not an issue - unless it's made to be one in the home.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I think it's the way kids are raised. I think for *children* race, truly, is not an issue - unless it's made to be one in the home.
Cheryl--

Please keep in mind that, for *children of color*, race is frequently an unavoidable issue, regardless of what happens in the home.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
I would never hisss at my child "we don't call people brown". I might say its nicer to pint out things that make us similar instead of things that make us different, etc." But once its heard by others how does _hissing_ help?

I never said I personally hissed at anyone. I'm not sure why you are even pointing that comment at me.







Maybe you should just let go of that and get over the grudge you have with whoever has done this in the past to you or someone you know?? Stop assuming perfect strangers such as myself would do something like that, because ummm...I wouldn't.









I talk to my children in the home later when they have said something "I" feel is out of line (only my daughter has ever done this actually). My daughter has never called another child by their color in public or to their face ANYWAY. She did it in the car on the way home from preschool one time when she was referring to a kid in class. You should ask for complete details before just "assuming" that someone who comments on a topic like this is making such comments in person. I would never, EVER go out of my way to tell my child not to say something like that "in front" of the person in question. You are right, THAT would be absolutely wrong!! I'm talking about what we discuss in the privacy of our own family unit.

And I am NOT racist because I try to teach my children to be polite and not rude whether they are talking to another child or an adult. If I didn't tell her when she is 3 that saying "brown" when referring to another person is incorrect, then she WILL be branded a racist in grade 2 or whatever grade if she is *still* doing it then because I didn't correct her when she was younger. Give me a break!

I stand my ground on what I said earlier. If in fact a teacher or whoever is whispering "black" when referring to another child or person then it's most likely because she is afraid she will be branded a racist if she is politically incorrect on the words she uses. Lordy!









It's useless for me to even comment on this topic anymore. Someone who feels that people around them are racist won't change. They will continuously think of things that people say or do that somehow must mean they are racist. If people would stop going around "looking" for racists comments just so they can be mad at the world......then the world could actually get somewhere in this situation.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

I just wanted to pipe up







I wanted to add that for me, racism is a about not liking someone's differences, and it can be about things other than color. People hate those of other religions, countries, etc. This HAS been going on for ever, and I do believe that it started with early man. Just as an example, Jews have throughout history had to endure racism. If we want to go back to ancient history, they were enslaved by the Egyptians. Early Christians were also persecuted because of their religion. I know of people here who don't like anyone from France. Especially since 9/11, the Muslim community has been the center for hateful remarks/feelings. I'm not mentioning any of this to excuse it in any way. It's NOT okay at all. I do agree, though, I feel that the only way to end racism is to fully understand it and it's history. I feel I have to agree with Charles Baudelaire's assertion that, unfortunately, racism is a complex issue that springs from a human's tendency to feel "better than". That belief is not meant to cheapen the experiences that those who have experienced racism have gone through, though.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

It never fails to amaze me that people who don't have to deal with racism and who actively choose to ignore it and who belittle those who do live with it always seem to have all the answers and it never, never involves them. Good for you for defining an experience that you clearly know nothing about and obviously have no interest in learning about.









This thread was started, I believe, in an effort to move forward and to avoid perpetuating racism. Ignoring the impact of racism and invalidating our experiences only makes you part of the cycle. Sorry you refuse to listen.







:


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

lilsis, the above was not directed at you.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
Mommy68- your luxury to "just live life" is called PRIVILEDGE. Read up on it.

(beloved-bird) Why don't you step up to the plate and stop allowing something like racism get you so angry? Just do something about it if you are so upset over it. It seems to really make you upset just in this little thread. You obviously have children and a husband, so why not focus on the wonderful things you have in life and stop harbouring so much anger about something you can NOT control like racism. Life DOES go on.

I get treated badly by people at times out in real life and you know what? I go on. It may be racists type things and maybe other types of things, but I don't let it get me down. I go on with life. If more people did that then it would be a better country for us to live in. When you let what other people say bother you so much then you admit defeat in that area. Why do that.

AND, fwiw I'm a green-eyed white woman and "I felt that" you were VERY, VERY racist by assuming I am privileged just because I'm white (you said it). So who's commenting in a racist manner in THIS thread? I never said anything towards any other race besides my own, not like you did when you said I was privileged just because I'm white.







: You don't know me. I just didn't comment the way you think I should in this thread and you called me privileged right after I posted that I was white, coincidence, I don't think so.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
It never fails to amaze me that people who don't have to deal with racism and who actively choose to ignore it and who belittle those who do live with it always seem to have all the answers and it never, never involves them. Good for you for defining an experience that you clearly know nothing about and obviously have no interest in learning about.










So what if I haven't experienced racism? Why does that make you somehow better than me or better able to comment on this subject? And I'm obviously not ignoring racism (or any other bad things I personally experience in life) since I came to this thread on my own will and posted the first time.







And guess what, a person who has in fact experienced racism does not have to live with it. Not in this day and time. This isn't the 50's. We are all in control of our feelings and what we will allow to get us down in life. The constant bickering about such a topic is useless IMO.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
So what if I haven't experienced racism? Why does that make you somehow better than me or better able to comment on this subject? And I'm obviously not ignoring racism (or any other bad things I personally experience in life) since I came to this thread on my own will and posted the first time.







And guess what, a person who has in fact experienced racism does not have to live with it. Not in this day and time. This isn't the 50's. We are all in control of our feelings and what we will allow to get us down in life. The constant bickering about such a topic is useless IMO.

Do you really not understand why someone who has experienced racism first-hand would not be better qualified to comment on the subject? I am amazed at the women who have come here and shared their own experiences with those of us who haven't had to live it. I can't imagine the courage that takes. Thank you.

Just because something like discussing skin color makes you a little uncomfortable is no reason to censor conversation. Obviously, your kids, your house, your rules, but it seems to me that making a subject taboo isn't the answer. The whole "nice little boys and girls don't talk about skin color!" attitude just strikes me as singularly unproductive.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
...you called me privileged right after I posted that I was white, coincidence, I don't think so.

No, just fact. White does equal privileged in the United States. She may not have meant financially privileged.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
So what if I haven't experienced racism? Why does that make you somehow better than me or better able to comment on this subject? And I'm obviously not ignoring racism (or any other bad things I personally experience in life) since I came to this thread on my own will and posted the first time.







And guess what, a person who has in fact experienced racism does not have to live with it. Not in this day and time. This isn't the 50's. We are all in control of our feelings and what we will allow to get us down in life. The constant bickering about such a topic is useless IMO.

Where exactly are you hiding?!?!? How *dare* you invalidate the bigotry and hatred my children have seen and felt?! You just dismissed the pain of every mama who has watched that bigotry and hatred directed at our babies. That is the PRIVILEGE of being white; you can choose to do that. We can't. If we ignore the reality, it will destroy our children. Just because I acknowledge it and fight against it, doesn't mean it controls my life. It means I won't let it control my life. This thread is about making things better. I'm glad you realize that your input isn't helping and is only leading to conflict.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I never said I personally hissed at anyone. I'm not sure why you are even pointing that comment at me.







Maybe you should just let go of that and get over the grudge you have with whoever has done this in the past to you or someone you know?? Stop assuming perfect strangers such as myself would do something like that, because ummm...I wouldn't.









The hissing thing was directed at whoever said a parent should hiss at the child. Just because somone quotes you and responds to you does not mean the whole post is directed at you. I'm sorry for not being clear about that. As far as my grudge and whatever you are claiming about me. Whatever, what a way to deflect the comments on your priviledge and racial issues.
Please, learn, or go join a different thread.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
It never fails to amaze me that people who don't have to deal with racism and who actively choose to ignore it and who belittle those who do live with it always seem to have all the answers and it never, never involves them. Good for you for defining an experience that you clearly know nothing about and obviously have no interest in learning about.









This thread was started, I believe, in an effort to move forward and to avoid perpetuating racism. Ignoring the impact of racism and invalidating our experiences only makes you part of the cycle. Sorry you refuse to listen.







:


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
(beloved-bird) Why don't you step up to the plate and stop allowing something like racism get you so angry? Just do something about it if you are so upset over it. It seems to really make you upset just in this little thread. You obviously have children and a husband, so why not focus on the wonderful things you have in life and stop harbouring so much anger about something you can NOT control like racism. Life DOES go on.

I get treated badly by people at times out in real life and you know what? I go on. It may be racists type things and maybe other types of things, but I don't let it get me down. I go on with life. If more people did that then it would be a better country for us to live in. When you let what other people say bother you so much then you admit defeat in that area. Why do that.

AND, fwiw I'm a green-eyed white woman and "I felt that" you were VERY, VERY racist by assuming I am privileged just because I'm white (you said it). So who's commenting in a racist manner in THIS thread? I never said anything towards any other race besides my own, not like you did when you said I was privileged just because I'm white.







: You don't know me. I just didn't comment the way you think I should in this thread and you called me privileged right after I posted that I was white, coincidence, I don't think so.

Did you miss the title of this thread???

It is

WHITE ANTI RACIST PARENTS
If racism doesn't make you angry and you are not willing to confront your own privilege go SOMEWHERE ELSE to talk about what a nice, non privileged white person you are.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
No, just fact. White does equal privileged in the United States. She may not have meant financially privileged.

Exactly. White priviledge. Read up on it.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

One more thing mommy68
Ignoring race is not being anti racist it is you making use of your white priviledge.

Defining white priviledge

Anti racism faq from hipmama. Please read if you are on this thread.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*

I tell you what, white people just can't win in this situation.









Um, we win in EVERY situation.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
Did you miss the title of this thread???

It is

WHITE ANTI RACIST PARENTS
If racism doesn't make you angry and you are not willing to confront your own privilege go SOMEWHERE ELSE to talk about what a nice, non privileged white person you are.

yeah that!!!


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

It's a luxury to be able to choose to ignore racism. This is not the place to enjoy that particular luxury.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

subbing- very interested in this thread


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
And guess what, a person who has in fact experienced racism does not have to live with it. Not in this day and time. This isn't the 50's. We are all in control of our feelings and what we will allow to get us down in life. The constant bickering about such a topic is useless IMO.

Uhhh...Mommy68, with all due respect, "a person who has...experienced racism" DOES have to "live with it in this day and time."

No, it's not the Fifties. It's not okay anymore to be overtly racist (in public). It's not okay to have fountains for "********."

But to suggest that there simply isn't racism any more "in this day and time" is...well, hey, I just have to wonder where you're living.

It sure isn't New Orleans.


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## somasoul (Mar 30, 2003)

This thread takes on a new kind of silliness.

I mean, the entire idea behind the thread is that whites are racist and what whites can do to curb racism.

Now, I know I'm some boonhuckle from a priviliged white neighborhood and all but as far as I know black people are some of the most racist people I've met, read or otherwise heard.

And speaking in terrifically huge generalities: One can't listen to black talk radio without hearing listeners call in to complain about the white devil or some other such non-sense. And one can't work alongside blacks without hearing some gibberish about how light skinned blacks are better than brown skinned blacks better than dark skinned blacks better than purple skinned blacks (Yeah, purple skinned blacks exist. Ask around)

But when I work around whites I never hear how the Irish are better than the germans or any other such inflamatory speak. And I rarely hear how blacks are some inferior race dead set upon creating some inevitable race war or bringing about armegeddon.

Now, if any of ya white folks actually meet a black person in a hallway or at a bus stop stop or see one in a mall or other such public area, maybe you can ask 'em about it. While you're at it, why don't ya ask about white privilige or the last time a white guy threw some inflammatory statement their way. While I've never heard a white person in my entire life openly call a black the infamous "N" word or any other silly and offensive comment, I've heard blacks openly spout racist epithets at complete strangers and, more often than not, single women walking around in the mall.

Racism exists outside the white realm of things. It is ugly and hideous and often-times extremely violent. And guess what? White people don't have a monopoly on it.


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## maatmama (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:

But when I work around whites I never hear how the Irish are better than the germans or any other such inflamatory speak.
Probably because both groups bond in this country under the guise of "whiteness" ....and I put in parenthesis because the label is a political one not a biological one...

Quote:

Now, if any of ya white folks actually meet a black person in a hallway or at a bus stop stop or see one in a mall or other such public area, maybe you can ask 'em about it. While you're at it, why don't ya ask about white privilige or the last time a white guy threw some inflammatory statement their way. While I've never heard a white person in my entire life openly call a black the infamous "N" word or any other silly and offensive comment, I've heard blacks openly spout racist epithets at complete strangers and, more often than not, single women walking around in the mall.
*I am raising my hand*....I am a 36 year old "black" woman and could tell you of YEARS of these inflammatory statements growing up in the "liberal" diverse town in the North East, at the Catholic College I first attended and then later at the Ivy League institution that is supposed to be SO progressive and recently in the town that I teach in.......but don't worry I am not "complaining" just providing a real life "black" person example for your statements....


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I thought part of the point here is for white parents who are working to be anti-racist to be able to talk about that with other white parents, with some input from people of color.

It bums me out how there's alla these white people coming on ehre questioning the existence of racism or, in the case of the above self described "boonhuckle" claim that racism exists but not in the white community.

i wonder if alla y'all who don't think whites are racist could take it elsewhere? Because you're not only taking the thread far from where it wants to be, but you are stepping all over the people of color here who are sharing their experiences, invalidating them, not listening and in some cases trying to make claims about their experiences, and it really sucks.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Boonhuckle apparently never met my stepgrandfather, for whom everyone except Danes were blinking idiots. My grandmother, who was from Norway, he frequently called a "dumb Swede." Don't even get him started on Polish people or Italians.

Real enlightened guy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadie_sabot*









I thought part of the point here is for white parents who are working to be anti-racist to be able to talk about that with other white parents, with some input from people of color.

It bums me out how there's alla these white people coming on ehre questioning the existence of racism or, in the case of the above self described "boonhuckle" claim that racism exists but not in the white community.

i wonder if alla y'all who don't think whites are racist could take it elsewhere? Because you're not only taking the thread far from where it wants to be, but you are stepping all over the people of color here who are sharing their experiences, invalidating them, not listening and in some cases trying to make claims about their experiences, and it really sucks.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I fear that some of you got lost on your way to this thread.

Happy Folks

Sorry for the mix up. Have a Pleasant day.

Now, for the rest of you.... One of my latest finds, which may have been mentioned upthread... is a book about Ruby Bridges. She was one of the less famous (at the time) first black child in a white school. I have read it to my DD (5 1/2, in kindergarten) and she likes the story. We have had some good discussions based on the book. We talk about about friends she would not have met if schools were seperated by race. We talk about differences and commonalities. We notice that the differences are smaller, by far. We also sometimes talk about issues that are non-race related.... bravery, fairness, kindness.... it's a pretty good book. the Christian-centric take may be a challenge for some.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
Now, for the rest of you.... One of my latest finds, which may have been mentioned upthread... is a book about Ruby Bridges. She was one of the less famous (at the time) first black child in a white school. I have read it to my DD (5 1/2, in kindergarten) and she likes the story. We have had some good discussions based on the book. We talk about about friends she would not have met if schools were seperated by race. We talk about differences and commonalities. We notice that the differences are smaller, by far. We also sometimes talk about issues that are non-race related.... bravery, fairness, kindness.... it's a pretty good book. the Christian-centric take may be a challenge for some.

Do you have the title?

Along the same lines, have you read last years Caldecott Honor Book was Rosa (Rosa Parks)?


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

The Story of Ruby Bridges


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Rosa looks good. The sample page at Amazon has a, what? A texture to it that I like.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
I mean, the entire idea behind the thread is that whites are racist and what whites can do to curb racism.

No, it is that whites are the beneficiaries of racism and they are the ones to change matters.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
Now, I now I'm some boonhuckle from a priviliged white neighborhood and all but as far as I know black people are some of the most racist people I've met, read or otherwise heard.

And speaking in terrifically huge generalities: One can't listen to black talk radio without hearing listeners call in to complain about the white devil or some other such non-sense. And one can't work alongside blacks without hearing some gibberish about how light skinned blacks are better than brown skinned blacks better than dark skinned blacks better than purple skinned blacks (Yeah, purple skinned blacks exist. Ask around)

Oh, yes, there is internal prejudice, but there isn't usually the power to go along with it to extend its influence into things like allocation of funds for schools, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
But when I work around whites I never hear how the Irish are better than the germans or any other such inflamatory speak.

No? Really? I hate to tell you this, but this stuff is still said. Lots of times.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
And I rarely hear how blacks are some inferior race dead set upon creating some inevitable race war or bringing about armegeddon.

Again, really? As a white person who just seems to have the kind of face that wackos like talking to, I've often heard this...including from white people who are or have been actually in a position of power. (I'm a privileged white woman who has even been fairly privileged compared to other whites. Meeting people like that has always been a useful reminder.) Go to a gun show and listen carefully to the sales patter of someone pitching a firearm to a suburban dweller or some-white-one who lives in a city.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
Now, if any of ya white folks actually meet a black person in a hallway or at a bus stop stop or see one in a mall or other such public area, maybe you can ask 'em about it. While you're at it, why don't ya ask about white privilige or the last time a white guy threw some inflammatory statement their way. While I've never heard a white person in my entire life openly call a black the infamous "N" word or any other silly and offensive comment, I've heard blacks openly spout racist epithets at complete strangers and, more often than not, single women walking around in the mall.

As a matter of fact, I've heard an awful lot of racist epithets directed at someone of a non-white backround by someone of what appears to be pure european background.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *somasoul*
Racism exists outside the white realm of things. It is ugly and hideous and often-times extremely violent. And guess what? White people don't have a monopoly on it.

I think you've got racism and prejudice confused. They are not exactly synonomous.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

I'm sure all you regulars on this thread have already seen, this but for the "what racism?" folks, try this out:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Instructions


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm sorry to have to do this, but, since the message seems to be getting lost otherwise:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadie_sabot*









*I thought part of the point here is for white parents who are working to be anti-racist to be able to talk about that with other white parents, with some input from people of color.

It bums me out how there's alla these white people coming on ehre questioning the existence of racism or, in the case of the above self described "boonhuckle" claim that racism exists but not in the white community.

i wonder if alla y'all who don't think whites are racist could take it elsewhere? Because you're not only taking the thread far from where it wants to be, but you are stepping all over the people of color here who are sharing their experiences, invalidating them, not listening and in some cases trying to make claims about their experiences, and it really sucks.*

And notice the link for the non racist, non angered white folks for another thread to go to in Kama's post.

For the rest of us working on our internalized racism and our priviledge And trying to make the whole world a happier and safer place for all people by educating our children and ourselves, instead of "ignoring race" and making sure we are happy in our own priviledge- on with the discussion.









Kama- I didn't read that book about Ruby Bridges but I did read another on, a collection of heroes. And Ruby was one of them. It was very nice how it told the story with alot of detail in simple language for the kids and even had a pic of Ruby and her teacher 30 years later or something like that. It was a good opener for a good discussion on racism with the kids.

Have a good weekend everyone.









edited to make Sadie's quote more noticable.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quoting myself, so those who missed the links can visit them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*

Ignoring race is not being anti racist it is you making use of your white priviledge.

Defining white priviledge

Anti racism faq from hipmama. Please read if you are on this thread.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Subbing and hoping the thread gets back on track, because I was really learning a lot from the first 13 pages or so









(Says this privileged white woman raising privileged white children living in a privileged white world.)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Ok, having made it through all 17 (!) pages of the discussion, I just wanted to reiterate a point several people have made, but that is worth remembering:

Not talking about differences or teaching your child to ignore differences is not anti-racism. In fact, I'd argue that it teaches covert racism. If something is so taboo that you can't talk about it, what kind of message does that send your child? (Race is "SCARY" we don't talk about it.) We don't call people "brown" because it's not nice (i.e. brown is not nice.)

All of the good anti-bias curricula that I know focus on teaching children about similarities AND differences. "Jamil & I are alike because we both like to play trucks. Jesse and I are different because he likes to draw and I prefer to work with clay." and then yes, "Jamil and I are different because my skin is brown and his skin is light brown. Jesse and Jamil are different because Jesse has dark brown eyes and Jamil has green eyes." This brings up the issues in an age appropriate way, so that children can talk about and discuss differences that matter and ones that don't.

Race is a construct, created by humans, that shouldn't matter, but still does in today's world. If you ignore it, you can't combat it. One small way of combatting this is to raise thinking kids who can stop and think about what differences matter, and what it means to be rotten/rude to someone based on superficial differences. And to raise kids who are taught to value the humanity in us all.

And this is easier said than done. My husband and I were confronted by this with schooling decisions for our kids. Our local public school is 67% non-English speaking (all Spanish-speaking) and 70% poor. I admit it, my first reaction was "How in the heck is my quiet, shy son who will not participate in groups and won't talk above a whisper to strange adults going to get what he needs in a school where there are so many other children with such obvious needs (like needing to learn English, needing a decent meal in the morning)?" My own reaction strikes me (very light pink) as being racist (or at very least elitist). It was a struggle to weigh my wish for an 'easy' transition to school for him with my desire for him to go to school in the 'real world' and learn first hand that kids who are different are well worth knowing. It's easy to say you're not racist, it's harder to put your values into action.

My parents sent me to the first ever integrated elementary school in my home city. And despite my initial qualms, our son will go to the local public school for first grade (they don't have an all day K or he'd go there for that too.) To do less would be to not honor the committment my parents made 30 years ago to anti-racisim. I'm just sad that the country hasn't come any further, that I'm still so susceptible to racist thoughts, and that racism is still something that POC experience on a daily basis.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Something that boobgirls post made me think of...my kid rides the bus with me or her dad on her way to school almost everyday (sometimes we borrow a car, like if it's raining). And she sees much more of the broad diversity of the city we live in that ay than she does through my social circles or through ehr 80% white preschool.

I think anyone living in a city can do this, and it's just a low key thing to do that normalizis how many sorts of people there are...we don't talk about it because it's unremarkable, so far, we've been riding the bus since she was born.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

My experience on dealing with race with my Amerasian child, who looks 100% Asian: when dd was about 3 she started saying that she didn't like her brown skin. This floored me as she had NEVER heard anything but positive comments about her skin color (we lived in rainy Seattle at the time so all the pasty-white, sun-deprived Seattleites thought her skin color was particularly beautiful







). The only thing I could think of is that she didn't like it because it was so obviously different from mommy's skin (I'm white) but who knows maybe she was getting it from the prevalence of whites on TV or in books?. Anyway, I talked to her about melanin. About how her skin is darker because she got lucky and got a lot of melanin in her skin like daddy's, and melanin protects the skin from the sun, and isn't it nice that she doesn't burn as easily as her best (white) friend when they go to the beach? At that age just talking to her about the biology of it seemed the best route to go. After that, she has been proud of her skin and I've noticed that she always picks the brown crayon to color skin now (I've got a little statue of Snow White that she painted with dark brown skin, I love it!).

Since then, we have talked about racism quite a lot. I don't agree that one can't talk to small children about racism; it can be done, just don't go into all the gory details at this age. A great story to use is Dr. Suess' The Sneetches. It introduces racism by talking about Sneetches, some of whom have stars on their tummies and some of whom don't. So after reading that, you can ask questions like, "do you think the Sneetches with stars were really better than the ones without stars?" "why do you think they acted like that?" "did you know some people in our world really act like that? isn't that silly?" etc etc. I love the book The Drinking Gourd too; after reading that we talked a lot about slavery and what it was. This was when she was 4 and 5. I didn't tell her the details like slaves got hanged, etc, but did tell her that at that time a whole group of people were considered property just because of the color of their skin. That's not too much for a little kid to handle.


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## mags (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
I really, really tried to stay away from this thread but it kept popping back up and I finally had to read it and y'know, it must be soooo nice to be able to decide _when_ you get to tell your child about racism. I can't even imagine thinking, "hmmm...seven is a nice age. Or, ten. Yeah, ten or twelve. That gives me plenty of time to hunt down just the right resources and we could just sit down with a plate of cookies and some hot cocoa and chat."







That's just surreal. It's a luxury.

When my daughter was two, she started noticing that certain people in the neighborhood--adults--wouldn't speak to her, even while they fussed over other children. She noticed when other moms, about my age, gave her openly nasty looks when she enthusiastically said hello. She noticed when the father at the playground physically removed his own daughter when the two little girls started playing. We had no choice about when to introduce racism. Because other parents had that choice, my daughter fielded questions from her peers about her race and why she looked different. By the time she was three, she knew about Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks and Malcolm X. She knew about the dogs and the fire hoses. She knew her grandparents went to segregated schools and what segregated meant and she knew why some people didn't like her simply because her skin was darker. And she knew that those people were wrong. The knowledge gave her the tools she needed to face racism and deal with it, without questioning herself.

We live in Virginia, not far from DC, in a more progressive, diverse area. I've seen worse, but even in Northern Virginia you have to be in serious denial to assert that racism isn't a problem.

I can't turn off life like I can turn off the television.

Nina Bonita is a beautiful book. I also love Black is Brown is Tan. We read poetry; my sons are named for poets from the Harlem Renaissance and my older son's favorite color is brown.

Missy

Missy-

Thank you for posting on this thread. I have read all of your posts so far on this very longgggg thread and I have found myself identifying with what you have said. Both my DH and I are asian american. So, our kids look 100% asian. Even before my kids were born, I have been dreading the day I will have to have the racism talk with them. I was one of two non-whites in my graduating class in high school. The town I grew up in was extremely racist and I remember as a small child vowing to get away from that place as soon as possible. I dealt with a lot of racism, esp at school, involving TEACHERS and students. My parents were (and still are), very passive, telling me not to cause trouble, just to, "ignore it." It was probably the worst thing they could have done, b/c it just established the idea that it was ok to feel like a second class citizen and let ppl step all over you for no good reason. It wasn't until I went to college, that I accepted the fact that racism exists and I didn't just have to just, "ignore it." My parents' property was often vandalized, and whenever my parents called the police, the police always just shrugged their shoulders and never really did anything about it. I think after a while, my parents just stopped calling the police to report the vandalism. Meanwhile they would tell us that since my brothers and I were born in the united states and did not have an accent that we could even become president of the united states someday. They totally believed in the american dream. My brothers and I learned early on that my parents didn't know what they were talking about or else they were in denial.

My oldest is only 2 yrs old. Unfortunately, to my dismay we ended up in a town that is 99.9% white and would qualify as semi-rural (my DH's profession is very specialized, and jobs are hard to come by). I had hoped that we would live in a more diverse area, so our kids would have more exposure to all types of ppl, foods, communities, etc.. However, now I freak out that my kids are going to grow up with the same horrible experiences I grew up experiencing. At the playground, we get stared at. Kids come up to us and ask us if we are from china, and when we tell them, "no," they don't believe us (meanwhile their mother stands nearby w/o stepping in to explain things to her own child), and insist we MUST be from china. My son is very sweet and friendly, he goes up to everyone and says, "hi." Well, many times he gets totally ignored, and I KNOW the other person/kid heard him. They are being rude to him on purpose. Whenever little kids say, "hi" to me, I always say, "hi" back, I think it's cute when kids are friendly and I would feel badly for ignoring a child trying to be friendly. We always notice that within about 10 min of us arriving at the playground, 75% of the ppl there leave! Most of the racism we have encountered has been very subtle, but having grown up with it, it is always very obvious to me, the message is loud and clear. We have lived in the same middle-class neighborhood for three yrs and when we moved here only ONE neighbor came to welcome us, and she was the only one who introduced herself to us for the first YEAR that we lived here! Meanwhile, I found out while talking to another neighbor (who is now a friend, but she moved to the neighborhood a few months before we did), that just about everyone in the neighborhood came over to welcome them on move-in day. On top of that, while we have met and are friendly with a few other neighbors now, we still do not know about 90% of our neighbors. They totally ignore us when we are out with the kids taking a walk or they are playing outside. Some of them even snub us off when we wave or say, "hello" when we see them. It's obvious what they are thinking. There is another asian family in the next street over and they have three kids who school aged and there are also two black families too with school aged children. All of the other kids in the neighborhood play together, EXCEPT for the asian and black kids, they just stay to themselves. It's like they have been excluded from it, and it seems like nobody in the neighborhood talks to these families either.

My DH and I keep hoping that maybe a job opening in a larger city will come up in the next five yrs (basically someone has to die or retire for a job opening to come up). I know there will never be a place that is totally void of racism. However, I would like to improve our situation by moving somewhere with a little more diversity with ppl who are a little bit more open minded and there are more opportunities for our kids to meet and learn about different types of ppl. I just feel bad for my kids, b/c I would like them to grow up feeling like a normal kid w/o having the burden of dealing with the racism that they will have to encounter every day which chisels away at you everytime you encounter it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
I'm sure all you regulars on this thread have already seen, this but for the "what racism?" folks, try this out:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Instructions









Now, that was an eye-opener.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama*
The Story of Ruby Bridges

Thanks. We've read that one before


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh*
I'm sure all you regulars on this thread have already seen, this but for the "what racism?" folks, try this out:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Instructions

I hadn't seen that particular one before, but I got the same results that I do on any of those type of tests:

Quote:

Your data suggest a slight automatic preference for Dark Skin compared to Light Skin.
At least it's only slight


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao*
My experience on dealing with race with my Amerasian child, who looks 100% Asian: when dd was about 3 she started saying that she didn't like her brown skin. This floored me as she had NEVER heard anything but positive comments about her skin color (we lived in rainy Seattle at the time so all the pasty-white, sun-deprived Seattleites thought her skin color was particularly beautiful







). The only thing I could think of is that she didn't like it because it was so obviously different from mommy's skin (I'm white) but who knows maybe she was getting it from the prevalence of whites on TV or in books?. Anyway, I talked to her about melanin. About how her skin is darker because she got lucky and got a lot of melanin in her skin like daddy's, and melanin protects the skin from the sun, and isn't it nice that she doesn't burn as easily as her best (white) friend when they go to the beach? At that age just talking to her about the biology of it seemed the best route to go. After that, she has been proud of her skin and I've noticed that she always picks the brown crayon to color skin now (I've got a little statue of Snow White that she painted with dark brown skin, I love it!).

Since then, we have talked about racism quite a lot. I don't agree that one can't talk to small children about racism; it can be done, just don't go into all the gory details at this age. A great story to use is Dr. Suess' The Sneetches. It introduces racism by talking about Sneetches, some of whom have stars on their tummies and some of whom don't. So after reading that, you can ask questions like, "do you think the Sneetches with stars were really better than the ones without stars?" "why do you think they acted like that?" "did you know some people in our world really act like that? isn't that silly?" etc etc. I love the book The Drinking Gourd too; after reading that we talked a lot about slavery and what it was. This was when she was 4 and 5. I didn't tell her the details like slaves got hanged, etc, but did tell her that at that time a whole group of people were considered property just because of the color of their skin. That's not too much for a little kid to handle.

Are you living my life?









We're in Seattle and seem to take many of the same tactics.

Have you all read the book Jack and Jim?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078...lance&n=283155

It is *supposed* to be an anti-gay bigotry book, but I always saw it as much more obviously an anti-racism book


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

The IAT test was good. We've made a conscious effort to be anti-racist at our house, so I was pleased with my results:

Quote:

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between Black People and White People.
We tell our kids that everybody is equal, so I guess I'm practising what I preach.


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## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

I'm so glad I found this and so glad for this conversation. And the booklists! YAY!







I've been struggling with many of the issues presented by the OP and other parents, although I am not white. I am Hispanic, DH is Caucasion. I've lived in the US most of my life, though, and feel *very* separated from my culture. Having DS has made me realize that I do want him to know about his heritage, and I also want to make a *REAL* effort to combat racism and strive for acceptance and honoring (not just tolerance) of other cultures.

LynnS6 said:

Quote:

And this is easier said than done. My husband and I were confronted by this with schooling decisions for our kids. Our local public school is 67% non-English speaking (all Spanish-speaking) and 70% poor. I admit it, my first reaction was "How in the heck is my quiet, shy son who will not participate in groups and won't talk above a whisper to strange adults going to get what he needs in a school where there are so many other children with such obvious needs (like needing to learn English, needing a decent meal in the morning)?" My own reaction strikes me (very light pink) as being racist (or at very least elitist). It was a struggle to weigh my wish for an 'easy' transition to school for him with my desire for him to go to school in the 'real world' and learn first hand that kids who are different are well worth knowing. It's easy to say you're not racist, it's harder to put your values into action.

My parents sent me to the first ever integrated elementary school in my home city. And despite my initial qualms, our son will go to the local public school for first grade (they don't have an all day K or he'd go there for that too.) To do less would be to not honor the committment my parents made 30 years ago to anti-racisim. I'm just sad that the country hasn't come any further, that I'm still so susceptible to racist thoughts, and that racism is still something that POC experience on a daily basis.
YES! This issue is at the very forefront of my mind right now. I am seriously considering HSing, but one of the huge drawbacks to it for me is that in this city, the HSing community is overwhelmingly white.

Which kinda flows into what boongirl said:

Quote:

My point - I am trying to expose my child to a world that is more than just white. When I was growing up in an upper middle class, nearly all white neighborhood, going to a nearly all white public school, I was raised to believe that race did not matter, that as long as you treat everyone with respect we were doing all right. But, reading Race Matters made me realize that I was living in a privileged bubble and that respect is not accorded to a great many people in the way that it is accorded to me.

So, we get out of our neighborhood and expose ourselves to more people. I can also talk to her about how people have many ways of acting and talking and I can encourage her to ask questions rather than make assumptions. There are many ways of living in the world and the way in which we filter information makes us assume that our way is the only way. That is not true. I think this is the most important thing I learned from Race Matters, that it is important to realize that race really does matter and impart that belief to my child in a way so that she knows that it matters.
One resource that I want to share: www.facinghistory.org/

Blessings, mamas.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

So, antiracist parents, how do you handle it when people in your group or who are your friends are racist?
It is easier for me to be forward and insistant with non peers (students, etc) then my actual peers. One thing with peers, if I know they are racist, or even not non racist (ambivalent toward racism) it speaks to me about what type of person they are and how much I can trust them as a friend, or even if I can continue to be their friend.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

When I say "are racist" I mean in subtle ways.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I've been hesitating to post this because everything on this thread seems to require treading lightly and sometimes I feel like I only stomp with heavy footsteps









BUT

One thing I am realizing is that is was a lot easier to implement anti-bias techniques when we were homeschooling and in charge of the experiences. At home, we could read books or rent DVDs and control the conversation. We didn't meet many people who didn't look just like us. There were a few adopted children in co-op with different skin colors, but the kids never really commented on it and I think I sort of mentally patted myself on the back thinking, see, I'm a good anti-bias mama. We went to Diversity Day at the park and had a rolicking good time discussing token multiculturalism (do all people from Holland wear wooden shoes do you think? wouldn''t it be silly to say ALL people in Williamsport played Little League baseball just because it's something our town is known for? Do you think the Native Americans _liked_ it when the explorers took over their land) and ate some yummy Korean food.

But now that Michael is in public school, it comes up a lot. And he says things like
"People with dark skin don't believe in Jesus"
and
"Naiah doesn't like me because my skin in lighter than hers"

And in the face of these real-life conversations, I find myself overwhelmed with sadness and with responsibility. Anti-racist parenting is _hard work_. And it's much harder in reality than in theory. And, for me at least, it's much harder with my own kids than it was when I was teaching, because when he says these things my first instinct _is_ to "hiss" at him and say, "Why on earth would you say such a thing? That's awful."

I don't know what I'm looking for here. I just wanted to share an _a ha!_ moment I'm having.

Peace, mamas.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
So, antiracist parents, how do you handle it when people in your group or who are your friends are racist?
It is easier for me to be forward and insistant with non peers (students, etc) then my actual peers. One thing with peers, if I know they are racist, or even not non racist (ambivalent toward racism) it speaks to me about what type of person they are and how much I can trust them as a friend, or even if I can continue to be their friend.

One thing I've done is to talk to them as though not only have I not noticed their subtle racism, but that I am just positive that really they are anti-racist....

here's an example. i was talking with one of my aprtner's colleague's, a white woman with twin toddlers. We were talking about school closures and how the poulation of parents in this city is dropping, somethng she should be well informed about because she is a parent and a teacher. (for background, the numbe rof families in this city is dwindling alarmingly fast, as the working class is forced out by rising housing costs, and the city has been closing schools in the african amaerican commuity...basically, poor families of color are being driven out by economic pressure which is always tied up with racism).

Anyway, she says to me, "but then there are parents like us, we're staying. " I said, (brilliantly) "Huh?" and she said, people like you and me, we're staying, there's a lot of families in my neighborhood, caucasian families, and we're not leaving."

So I realize she is talkig about how white families are staying, so it's all ok, and has totally missed the point of how all of ths is really impacting communities of color. Which suck as she teaches in a school with a student body that is 90% kids of color.

So in my head I was all, ewwwwww, I am NOT like you, yuck...but the truth is, when she said "people like us," she meant "white people", and so I am like her.

Anyhow so what I did was kept talking about how the poor families of color were being forced out, and wasn't it a shame, and how messed up that the city was closing the schools in the black community, and how the city would lose so much and be so much less as the communities of color are forcedout....right, I kida rattled on and she gave me a lot of weird looks.

did it do anygood? who knows. But it didn't seem like a confrontational approach would get us anywhere.

I've heard people suggest also saying things (when someonesays something racist) "oh, I just need to tell you, I'm so sure you didn't mean it thsi way, but that sounded so racist. I'm sure you wouldn't want tobe saying racist things..." etc.

but it's a really good question...because when we who are white encounter racism, our kids will learn a lot from how we deal with it...they will learn to challenge it, to cofront it, to be complicit...how we deal is so important.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

I'm SO glad this thread got productive again. I'm not really participating, but I AM learning.

I did the IAT test for skin-tone, and got this result, which I find curious:

_Your data suggest a slight automatic preference for Dark Skin compared to Light Skin_

I'm in a weird place right now. The kids are young (5 & 2) and homeschooled, and we live in an incredibly white place (and DH and I and the kids are white). As a result, the conversations that would naturally happen, generally haven't. And I am incredibly conscious that that lack of conversation is a privilege. I'm searching this thread for the book recommendations - it will be a start, anyhow.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

check out the books on this web site

http://www.syrculturalworkers.com/

even if you and your kids are surounded by white folks, you can have your picture books show a more accurate picture of the world, normalize various ways people look.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Thanks for that link - I'll check it out.

I also have some books waiting for me to check out at Amazon. I think all 3 will be good conversation starters for discussions with my 5 year old, and will address color, culture, and economics as a whole.

Hungry Planet

Material World: A Global Family Portrait

If the World Were a Village: A Book About the World's People


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## K's Mom! (Jul 22, 2004)

I also am working towards raising 2 little ones to be anti-racist and anti those that are. To me racism is inexcusable and will not be tolerated







( I do not tolerate anyone of any race to make racial slures about their race or any other race around me). I am a white woman who is married to a native Alaskan man (children look very European though). My DH's family is also bi-racial, mil is AK native and fil is white, mil's mom is also native and her dh was russian and ak native.

I feel that because we have and love others that look differently than us in our immediate family, will encourage my children to not see skin color as much as _seeing_ the person. I do know that my dd has noticed it, she asked what color we were and I told her pink. But, I feel that I "normalize "the "color of skin" by also making a point of talking about others differences (i.e. different colors of eyes, hair, height, etc of everyone) she is learning what is different among everyone in all cultures. I also make a point of discussing (in the same conversation) what is similar. I am trying to raise them to think no differently of peoples' colors than I think of the different colors of flowers. I don't feel that I am avoiding the subject, so it comes off as a hush-hush thing or something, I feel that through addressing all differences and similarities, they will just to see people, not skin.









I personally feel that racisism stems from fear; and the fear stems from the unknown. The more time you spend in the dark; the less afraid you are of it. (no pun intended here)


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Subbing. This thread is very, very long; have you considered starting a new one, so that those of us who have lots of other things to do might be able to get the salient points of this thread, and maybe even contribute to the discussion?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

e- I definitely see your point, but it can be really useful to keep this particular thread active because so much ground has been covered here.

what do other folks think?


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

I vote for keeping this thread open at least till a few more of address my question.









We had a pretty busy house this shabbos (jewish sabbath) and one guy was talking started describing something and said something about "blacks" it looked like it was heading (besides the term "blacks" all by itself, in a racist direction, and I just announced, in front of all the guests, that "I don't know where you're going with this story, but I just want to say this in anti racist home and racial slurs and the like are not tolerated here". The guy took a second to digest and then said "wow, really? OK". And then continued his point leaving out any racial elements. Some other people at the table started discussing the term "blacks" and I gave my two cents and that was that. Don't know if it changed anyone's ideas but I think I at least adressed it well, head on.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

So weird, I double posted by accident but at first the post showed up on my screen like 8 times.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
I vote for keeping this thread open at least till a few more of address my question.









We had a pretty busy house this shabbos (jewish sabbath) and one guy was talking started describing something and said something about "blacks" it looked like it was heading (besides the term "blacks" all by itself, in a racist direction, and I just announced, in front of all the guests, that "I don't know where you're going with this story, but I just want to say this in anti racist home and racial slurs and the like are not tolerated here". The guy took a second to digest and then said "wow, really? OK". And then continued his point leaving out any racial elements. Some other people at the table started discussing the term "blacks" and I gave my two cents and that was that. Don't know if it changed anyone's ideas but I think I at least adressed it well, head on.

awesome.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
But now that Michael is in public school, it comes up a lot. And he says things like
"People with dark skin don't believe in Jesus"
and
"Naiah doesn't like me because my skin in lighter than hers"

And in the face of these real-life conversations, I find myself overwhelmed with sadness and with responsibility. Anti-racist parenting is _hard work_. And it's much harder in reality than in theory. And, for me at least, it's much harder with my own kids than it was when I was teaching, because when he says these things my first instinct _is_ to "hiss" at him and say, "Why on earth would you say such a thing? That's awful."

I don't know what I'm looking for here. I just wanted to share an _a ha!_ moment I'm having.

Peace, mamas.

Yeah.... those are the hard moments... and the important ones. And it is tricky because you don't want, as someone else has commented, to give kids... who say so much of what they think... to get the message that ethnic differences are "bad" because we "don't speak of them" ... that's ... ew! When this kind of thing happens with my DD I try first to hear everything she has to say... "Why do you thnk that?" "What brings this up?" "Did someone tell you that?" and not in an interrogating fashion, but the same way I ask her follow up questions when she wants to explain to me about a crysylis turning into a butterfly. Once I know her reasoning, her sources of information I can gently explain to her where she may have made some errors in constructing her thesis. "Well, it's true that Michael and his family have dark skin and they don't believe in Jesus the same way some people do... but Latasha and her father have dark skin and they do believe in Jesus a lot. Do you think that maybe people who look many different ways can have lots of different ideas? It's tricky. Like anything else it can be hard finding the tone for these teaching conversations, but the opportunities are there.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Thanks *kama'aina mama*! I think my post got lost at the bottom of the last page. Those are some really good conversation starters.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

Well dang! I can't believe I've missed this whooooole thread.

Subbing, in the hopes of reading the backlog some day and contributing in the future.









Kim


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

hi skim!

annettttemarie, I saw your post, and had too much to say to res[ond, i that makes any sense at all. I am awaiting with dread when my kid starts participating in racial stereotyping, but I really doubt we'll avoid it. blah.


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## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
So, antiracist parents, how do you handle it when people in your group or who are your friends are racist?

I would really, really, really like to see this addressed as its own separate thread! For selfish reasons, lol! I need help!

I don't struggle with this with my social circle, but whoo-boy do we struggled with it with the ILs, especially my MIL and DH's grandmother. Ugh. It just makes me feel dirty when they make comments- and the thing is, they make those "socially acceptable", subtle comments. No racial slurs, but lots of "us" and "them". At times I want to get a frying pan and whack them on the head, like, you doofuses! Don't you even friggin' realize that *I* am a person of color? GEEZ.

To date, I have "handled" it by NOT handling it, like I've done with virtually all other aspects of my life and parenting that they do not agree with. I basically ignore whatever comes out of their mouths; I refuse to engage, period. I've been in survival mode with them these past 3 years, and I think this ignore strategy was the best that I could have managed at the time, but I'm not happy with it as a long-term solution and I want to do something different. ESPECIALLY with DS getting older, he will start to *understand* what they are saying and I want him to know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that what they are saying and the belief systems behind it are completely and utterly unacceptable. I guess I just have to find my "cojones" and stand up to them.

Easier said than done, huh?


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## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

annettemarie, this is way tangental to your post, but your post about comments your son has made ("People with dark skin don't believe in Jesus") made me think about some choices I've made to counter the "white washing" of history. DH and I are very liberal Christians, and we want to share the history and teachings of Christ with our children, but are frankly *appalled* at how WHITE all of the children's Bible/story books are. I mean, we're talking about the Middle East. Why aren't there people with dark skin in these books?





















:


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qtopia*

To date, I have "handled" it by NOT handling it, like I've done with virtually all other aspects of my life and parenting that they do not agree with. I basically ignore whatever comes out of their mouths; I refuse to engage, period. I've been in survival mode with them these past 3 years, and I think this ignore strategy was the best that I could have managed at the time, but I'm not happy with it as a long-term solution and I want to do something different. _*ESPECIALLY with DS getting older, he will start to *understand* what they are saying*_ and I want him to know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that what they are saying and the belief systems behind it are completely and utterly unacceptable. I guess I just have to find my "cojones" and stand up to them.

RE: part in bold

This is why it is so important to speak up now. Even if your ds is too young to grasp the meaning now, he is soaking it up. You don't know how his mind will ultimately internalize those comments. It is harmful for any child to hear derogatory beliefs, but, particularly if they are even indirectly referring to people of color, they are encompassing you and your son in those views and you don't know how that will impact his own identity.

Personally, I think you ought to enlist the help of your husband. It's his mother and grandmother, right? He shouldn't be tolerating those words around his family. Period. I don't care how subtle the comments are, if they're hurtful or even slightly suggestive, they're unacceptable. I remember my father firmly and calmly explaining to his father that he would not tolerate any derogatory comments in our presence. He told him that we would not hesitate to leave immediately the next time it happened and, if that meant that he would not be a part of our lives, that was simply the way it would be. His words didn't change my grandfather's views, but it did change how he talked around us and let him know that my father would not raise us in that kind of environment. He had a very similar conversation with my maternal grandmother. Difference was, my grandmother had never considered that she was bigoted. It made her think and revise her views. It was a long and slow process, but absolutely amazing.

My father made it clear both times that, as much as he loved them, he was not willing to have his children exposed to those views.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qtopia*
I don't struggle with this with my social circle, but whoo-boy do we struggled with it with the ILs, especially my MIL and DH's grandmother. Ugh. It just makes me feel dirty when they make comments- and the thing is, they make those "socially acceptable", subtle comments. No racial slurs, but lots of "us" and "them". At times I want to get a frying pan and whack them on the head, like, you doofuses! Don't you even friggin' realize that *I* am a person of color? GEEZ.

One place to start might simply be to begin to question what they say. So ask for 'clarification' when the 'us and them' stuff starts. "Them? Who are 'they'?" (response: "well, you know.") "No, I don't know, please tell me." If you're really feeling brave, something like "Them? you mean people like me?" is a possible follow up question too.

I took this tack when some of dh's extended relatives were about to go into a diatribe against gays/lesbians. "You know how THEY are," he began. "No, I don't, what are they like?" I've never seen 4 other family members rush to change the topic of conversation so quickly!

That may prevent all out war for now, get you used to not ignoring it and let them know that you are listening, and maybe (unlikely, but maybe) get them to question their own thinking. Letting it go unquestioned is harmful for your son and YOU. And I agree that your son is understanding far more than is being said. Like "Mommy feels uncomfortable around these people and doesn't do anything." (and thus not saying something when you're uncomfortable must be OK). I KNEW that my mom didn't like my dad's family, even though she never, ever said anything. What does your son KNOW about his dad's family? What is he learning to tolerate?


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## ibex67 (Feb 24, 2006)

I confess to not having read this whole thread [It is very, very long!] but I just wanted to say a few things.

Being anti-racist is one of the few values that I made a conscious choice to "brainwash" ds about from a fairly young age. When it comes to g-d and politics he is free to make up his own mind. But living in a culture so saturated with racism in so many subtle ways, it was important to me that we take an aggressive, overtly ideological stance at home. This became especially important as we began a foster-to-adopt situation with our AA daughter. In general I am uncomfortable supplying children with over-simplified propoganda but when it comes to a pro-people of color, anti-racist ideology -- I definitely do it.

I do it with books, with music, with the way we discuss history, geography, current events, everything.

I think unless white parents take a very proactive role in providing their children with alternative experiences, explanations, and a conscious framework for thinking about race -- our children are bound to grow up racist to some degree. It's inevitable -- even if they never hear you, or your friends or your family make a racist remark their whole lives.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

ibex, i agree with you.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

This thread has been rattling around in my brain - and that's a GOOD thing. What I've noticed is that I'm taking more opportunities to talk about differences among people with my DS - regarding race or otherwise. For example, I've been talking with my DS about getting him a rash-guard type swimsuit with SPF 50 so he doesn't get a sunburn when we're at the lake. So we talked about how DH's ancestors came from a place where the sun wasn't very strong and so his ancestors didn't develop much skin pigment and so he sunburns really easily. Then we talked about how there are people whose ancestors came from places with really strong sun and they developed more pigment to protect their skin. And we discussed it as if it were just a really interesting difference among people. Yesterday our part-time neighbor came by, and DS mentioned that he had a "funny" accent. So we talked about how our neighbor is from Boston and has a Boston accent and different people from different places sound different and isn't that interesting. I know, it's over simplified, but our opportunities are limited, so I feel that talking about whatever we can when we get the chance is what I can do right now.


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## ibex67 (Feb 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
SNIP I know, it's over simplified, but our opportunities are limited, so I feel that talking about whatever we can when we get the chance is what I can do right now.

Yes, it's oversimplified but I agree that it is vitally important. No where else in our culture is he going to get the message that difference [of any kind] is okay and to be respected.

I'm with you and try to be matter-of-fact and explanatory of all difference and diversity. These kind of simple, everyday conversations come up in all kinds of circumstances. In noticing people with disabilities, with different body shapes, different colors, and folks who challenge gender stereotypes. I beleive my children need to keep hearing the message "differences are okay. they are not scary or wierd."


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

yes, and yes to all these ideas about talking about variances among people. I think part of my goal is to normalize difference, so that whe people are different from, say, me or my kid, she won' feel as though anything is *wrong* just that they're diffrent, we;re different, etc.

part of it too is trying to help her to see that it isn't always THEM being different from US, but maybe WE are the different ones, at least some of the time.


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## eastcoastmomof2 (Jun 6, 2006)

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but what about taking your child to different cultural festivites in your area? Or reading up on different religions and cultures? Exposure to different cultures and religions is usually the best way to come to understand them. We take our children to the different cultural festivals (Greek-Fest, Black history month celebrations, Chineese New Year celebrations/parade, etc) as much as possible to share with them all of the wonderful traditions and contributions of other nationalities and religions all over the world. Possibly acknowledging religions outside of your own during their holy days (Chineese New Year, Kwanzaa, Rosh Hoshanna, etc) by renting a video, or getting a library book about it?

These things greatly help my daughters understand and place value on all people, and all religions and cultures. it's a small step, but if you don't live in a verry culturally diverse, or racially mixed area, it is sometimes necesarry to put a bit more effort into exposing them.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

http://trainingforchange.org/
Not sure if this link has been posted before.
I am kind of shocked that they would make money from it, but, I guess.

I liked this article from the website
http://trainingforchange.org/content/view/78/33/ Understanding Power-Over and Power-Within.

I like how it explains how when you stop supporting something, it is easier to get it to stop. But if you are silent, it is the same as being a supporter.


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## ibex67 (Feb 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
http://trainingforchange.org/
Not sure if this link has been posted before.
I am kind of shocked that they would make money from it, but, I guess.

I would love to attend this!!! I wonder if they would be cool with a nursing infant there the whole time?

Why are you shocked that they would make money? Are you shocked that people would pay or are you shocked that they would charge money?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ibex67*
Why are you shocked that they would make money? Are you shocked that people would pay or are you shocked that they would charge money?

Sorry! That they would charge money, but I know they deserve to be paid for their work, kwim?
It makes sense. I do hope that one day, anti-racism will be a mandatory class in schools for ALL students.


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *termasan*
Racism is a white problem.

Huh? Wha? Please do not be so naive as to think that racism is only a white problem. There are racist clashes between blacks and latinos in the U.S. There are racist clashes between indigenous and "European" descent people in Latin America. There is racism between Chinese and Korean. There is racism between Arabs and Kurds. Between dark-skinned Africans and lighter-skinned Africans.

Racism is unfortunately a HUMAN condition, not one confined to nor perpetuated by one race in particular. It appears to be universal.

The way we deal with these issues in our lives (my family, I mean) is that we make friends with people that we have a good rapport with. Makes not a single bit of difference what their politics, religion, race, creed or favorite soccer team are. Our friends are Persian, our friends are black, our friends are white, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, Republican. We don't teach our daughter that these are criteria for selecting friends, rather they are just the parts that make up the whole of who your friend is. She is comfortable with differences. Because my husband and I have always been of a mind that differences are what make us unique, and what make us interesting.

We also happen to live in a country where we are the minority. We are white, fair skinned and light eyed, living in Central America. Judgements are made about us every day based on the color of our skin and the color of our eyes.

We consider ourselves pretty much color blind (and religion blind, language deaf, political blind--although not as much there, this one is much harder!). That said, to give you an idea how pervasive racism can be, I'll share an anecdote from last night. We are planning on buying an old Toyota Land Cruiser. We just looked at one last night, great shape, good price, etc. We go inside the person's house, and they happen to have the same Persian rug we have at home. The woman says, "my husband is Iranian." (Mind you, one of dh's best lifelong friends is Iranian). Later, when we get home, we confide in each other that both of us had the same thought when she said that, which was, "you have to be careful buying from Iranians."

Part of human nature is also to learn from experiences. We had a bad experience with an Iranian businessman in Costa Rica, and also had a friend who had a bad experience with another Iranian in Costa Rica. And that was enough to create this doubt in our minds about Iranians. Isn't that terrible? It's that easy, though.

Anyhoo, people are people. Some of us will love each other for our differences, and others will judge each other for our differences. With any luck, our children will be the ones to love, and maybe a better world will come of it.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I understand racism to mean "race prejudice PLUS power." so while it may be true that lots and lots of people have race prejudice, the question of power complicates things. People of color in the US may have prejudices toward other groups of people of color, but here in the US the only racial group that holds power with regard to race is white people. so my understanding, which I know is shared by a lot of folks who spend a lot of time thinking aobut and challenging racism, is that in the US only white people are RACIST.

I am also not sure that I believe it is human nature to be prejudiced. I think that explaining that way kind of makes it seem on some level ok, excusable, and also presents it as an inevitablitiy. I do not believe racism and prejudice (and all other systems of oppression) are *inevitable;* I think they happen a lot, and that they can be challenged, opposed, and overcome.

the other thing I have to say, and I'm sory, I'm not trying to pick on you exactly, is that the concept of "color blind" is not compatible with anti-racism. You are not colorblind, clearly. No one shuld be. We should see and appreciate and celebrate all of our differences; pretending that you don't notice racial differences is dishonest. And, at least in the US, only white pople can pretend to color blindness. For people of color, seeing color is a survival skill.


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## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadie_sabot*
<snip> the concept of "color blind" is not compatible with anti-racism. You are not colorblind, clearly. No one shuld be. We should see and appreciate and celebrate all of our differences; pretending that you don't notice racial differences is dishonest. And, at least in the US, only white pople can pretend to color blindness. For people of color, seeing color is a survival skill.
















:


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## eastcoastmomof2 (Jun 6, 2006)

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
racist adj. & n.

I'm not convinced racism is a "white " issue", based on the dictionary definition.
I would think a person of any nationality or race could think that their own race is superior. Not everyone considers white to be the 'ideal', although, many probablky do.
I have known African American friends who's parents did not want them dating white people...as well s good friend of mine who is Greek; she HAD to marry Greek man, there was no choice. Her parents did not feel it was a "step-up" to be married to a white, or non-Greek man...her father considered Greek people to be the best thing going. I don't know that he felt "better' than non-Greeks, but would that not be considered racism if he did?

ETA: Isn't "class-ism" just a bad? considering oneself to be superior based on one's "class"?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

1) In trying to figure out, oppose, deconstruct racism, in working to have an accurate understanding of systems in order to have effective resistance to them, sometimes the dictionary definition isn't the best starting point. anti-racists all over the country use the "racism + race prejudice plus power" definition. This isn't about what definition is correct according to dictionary writers, it's about what definition reflects reality.

2) the examples you cite sound like race prejudice to me, not systemic oppression based on race. There is a difference.

3) class is a Huge issue in this country. At the same time, it is a common tactic of predominantly white folks to attempt to derail any conversation about racism by bringng up class. clas sis an issue, and certainly the two systems of oppression do intersect. but this thread is about anti-racism, not class war. If you start a class war thread, I'll be hapy to join you there.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Sadie









Twilight- I think it is quite disrespectful to be BLIND to others' differences. You prefer to imgine that everyone is just like you?? Why is that okay?


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
Twilight- I think it is quite disrespectful to be BLIND to others' differences. You prefer to imgine that everyone is just like you?? Why is that okay?

I think you misunderstand my meaning about being blind. I absolutely did not say that we are blind to people's differences. In fact, I think I said that we celebrate difference, as differences are what make us all unique, interesting and special.

What I mean by being "blind" is that we don't choose or reject friends based on color, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, etc. I don't seek out a person and try to make a friendship just because is, say, Japanese. Nor would I reject striking up a friendship because someone is christian and I am atheist.

Being blind (in my usage) only means that. You either hit it off with a person or you don't, and I don't try to stack my friendship deck with certain people just for the sake of a diverse portfolio of friends. If my friends are black, gay, Arab, Lutheran, Japanese, etc., it's because of who they are as people, not BECAUSE they are black, gay, Arab, Lutheran, Japanese. Of course, cultural, religious, political, sexual differences are all part of who we are, and part of what makes us interesting as people. Therefore it is a big part of what makes people interesting to us, and therefore why we develop a good rapport.

All I mean, is that it doesn't matter to me if you are mostly like me, or not at all like me. If we get along well, and have a good rapport, then we will become friends. If we don't, we won't. And your color, religion, nationality, etc., really don't come to bear.

Don't know if I explained that well or not. Yesterday was a fine example. Met a christian woman, with whom I had a lot in common. She was very sweet, and we got along nicely (except for the constant suggestion that I should find a good church, and seek out Jesus through Bible study). Now, I feel that she and I could actually be friends, despite this difference. I don't try to talk her away from Jesus, and as long as she agrees to stop trying to talk me into Jesus, I think we'll be fine. But I wouldn't reject a friendship with her just because she is christian. I am blind to that (in my meaning of blind).

Judi


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

Way back on page 11, there was discussion of whether or not to buy media materials produced by a white person about another race/culture/ehnicity.

I will only speak to Indigenous peoples' literature here. Many think Barbara Kingsolver and Tony Hillerman are wonderful examples of white folks "getting" American Indians. But they're not. White people in America know Indians in one way - as colonized peoples. So, even if it seems so anti-racist, it is still a colonial tale.

Some people are okay, with that, and eh, read/buy what you wish, but Indigenous people have been saying this for quite a while, Sherman Alexie the most prominent of us.


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## lucyem (Apr 30, 2005)

I have 4 instances in my life that stand out. The first was in college. I asked my boyfriend what he did for Christmas. He laughed and said he was Jewish. We had been dating for over 4 months and he just assumed I knew because he had a very Jewish name. I having never been exposed to anything but "everyone is created equal" was clueless. I have since come to discover some people think my cluelessness is racist.

My second exposure to racism was also in college. I had 2 friends who were african american. I would sit with them at meals. I was the only white person at the only african american table in the cafeteria. I was shuned by some people at that table because I was white. I was shuned by some white students because I sat at that table.

A couple of years ago I watched a show on tv about a hospital in inner city LA. They got on the racist subject as most patients were not white and the lack of funding issue. What was interesting was listening to the people being interviewed. A white woman was saying it did not matter who you were or your background it did not matter to her. Then an african american man very angry that these white people would discredit his heritage as it was part of himself. I realized there was a lack of communication going on. In an attempt to not be labeled racist we so often say "it does not matter". Yet to the person in question their heritage "does matter" as it makes them who they are. I started paying attention to this and I realized it does not matter the race/heritage/sexual orientation etc but that people want to be liked for who they are. And yet so many "WASPs" for want of a better way to say it say things like "it does not matter to me if you are........" I do not believe they are discrediting the heritage, I used to say this the same way myself, yet it sounds like they are. I think we all need a better way to say we do not make prejudgements about you because of your race/heritage/sexual orientation. Does that sound right? What about a better way?

I am presently in a new experience with racism. One I am not sure how to handle. Our babysitter is German and should go home next month. Only she fell in love with a young man here. They are planning on getting married so she can stay. He has no money, no job, no apartment etc. He is on a full college football scholarship. They want us to sponser them and put them up in our guest cottage. We have serious issues with him. We had no issues at first, had him over to dinner etc. But a year ago after they became engaged he cheated on her. Not just with one woman, but several. She showed me his email and he is a member of every match.com type site I can think of and the emails he was sending to women....well I was more then shocked. In the process he also gave her herpes. Of course it ended up being "her fault" and now they are together again. She does not trust him, he calls her at least 5 times a day while she is working, telling her where he is. We have tried repeatedly to discuss this with her and we get no where. What concerns me is that in a 5 minute conversation he can drop the word racist about 2-4 times per minute. He is african american. "they will not give me a job at Wendy's because they are racist. They will not give me a job at the shoe store because they are racist. I cannot pass english class because the professor is racist. So and so hates me because he is racist." His comments are now coming out of her mouth. She is accusing everyone of being racist and to blame in all his problems. This has got my husband and I a little bit concerned. IMO this is racist. I am not denying this young man has run into racism. But to spend your life accusing everyone of racism seems horribly negative and just as racist. And then the fact that I do not think he is the smartest guy around and I do believe that may be more of the issue with his jobs and professors. Argh. I am afraid as soon as we refuse to help her we will be considered racists. No we have serious issues about the herpes, the very good chances of future cheating, the fact she is constantly paying for everything, he calls her up and she ends up sending him western union payments.

My mother has an african american boy in her art class. One of many. A wild out of control child with many many detentions and behavior issues that come up. Every time the father storms into the school saying the school is racist and that he will sue. And the child learns his behavior is not wrong but the problem of the "racist" teachers. But anyway I digress.

You know at first reading comments about authors writing about other ethnic groups as being able to totally understand the ethnic group my first thought was well why not. But then I thought about it from another angle. I am a woman and I often have a hard time reading books about women written by men. (kind of like seeing a male gynechologist) Maybe they do a great job, but until they live the experience they cannot fully understand. Coming in at page 19 here I apologize if this has already been said.


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