# Fast Food Baby



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Has anyone watched Fast Food Baby? I'm shocked at what these little ones are eating - 3000+ calories a day in fast food and soda.









Is this a rare thing? Or are there a lot of children living like this?


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Mixed feelings here about all this. I work as a family advocate in the field of children's mental health - a fairly social worker-type role. But my education is as a Health Educator, and I have some pretty strong feelings about nutrition. But then, add to that that I have a son with autism and sensory issues - who had some pretty major food aversions for many years. That is a vague way of saying he ate mainly only popcorn. Then, after a perceived choking incident, he put himself on a clear liquid diet for about 9 months. Nothing but apple juice, white grape juice, and homemade veggie/chicken broth I strained through cheesecloth. Today, he eats a full, healthy diet, and is amazingly healthy, but we had some rough years. I have also lived in poverty, and know how expensive it can be to eat "right". All this is to say I know what a healthy diet is, and I know what some of the obstacles are in providing it.

I work with some families who truly don't know about nutrition. Even the most basic, mainstream info is news to them. Like one family, living in poverty, who I thought I had talked out of buying soda pop. I explained all about the unnecessary sugar, high cost, dental problems, diabetes risk, etc, and I thought they had understood that drinking water, milk, and juice would be better choices. Financially, nutritionally, and maybe even for the kid's behavior. Next time I saw them, Mom proudly showed me her fridge filled with Gatorade and energy drinks. Oh, my.

Then there is another group who simply don't know how or what to cook. They have totally bought into the advertising of prepared foods. I have gone shopping with a mom who filled her cart with frozen and boxed dinners. When we were in the produce section, (she was getting some bananas) I commented that they had a good price on broccoli. She admitted that she had no clue how to use it, cooked or raw. I spent a few weeks sharing recipes and cooking with her - I hope she is still occasionally cooking fresh meals for her kids.

Then there are the families with kids with sensory issues, or autistic rigidity. One family I work with has a child who only eats Burger King food. And to avoid major destructive meltdowns, Mom goes along with this. I don't blame her for wanting to avoid serious destruction of the home, and injury to her. I know it isn't sustainable, but I have no answers for her. And yes, she and her children are obese.

The issue of food is so complex. And I haven't even touched on parents' emotional issues around food, cultural traditions, and many other issues. But to answer your question, Cynthia, yes, there really are families like the ones in that story.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

My kids' best friend next door eats fast food every day and tons of freeze pops, poptarts, popcorn (hm, lotsa pops in this), cookies, cereal, sugar drinks, kraft mac and cheese, etc. When they do cook at home it's meat and corn. She eats limes and lemons, that's about the only produce. Some people don't have much free time or care much about food, so give the kids whatever they'll eat. Their kids are tall and thin and rarely sick, it's only the mom who's health suffers for it so far, she's had 2 surgeries on her intestines.

You can get grilled chicken salads from those places that are pretty good though, and leave off the white bread bun and some burgers aren't too bad either.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

mamarhu, what a wonderful post! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I guess I assume that everyone knows what good food is. It is really sad to see those little ones in that video eating such food every single meal.

You did mention juice as being a better choice. I know nutritional advice now to be to avoid juice because of the high calorie content and it being so easy for kids and adults to down those liquid calories and think it is part of a healthy diet. Has that changed?

JamieCathryn - add soda pop in there and you have another "pop". How odd!


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## CupOfJoe (May 20, 2013)

The the poorer areas of Britian, like the North where my husband is from, this is fairly common. However, the same is true in the US. I think it's less to do with raw earning power and more to do with class. We don't earn much at all -- I'm a graduate student and my husband is in manual labor -- but we eat very conscientiously mostly because we know how important it is and because we believe that you pay the grocer/farmer now or you pay the doctor later. That said, in the UK when we visit it's not unusual to see babies with tea, milk and sugar, in their bottles and chips and biscuits on their trays.I really feel for the parents though, 99.9% of them don't want to harm their children, they honestly either just don't know better or can't manage otherwise due to time constraints, financial constraints or just a general lack of support.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

How can someone not know that real food is better than fast food/boxed/frozen meals? I can't wrap my head around the fact that someone would not KNOW that. I understand the issues some kids have and will only eat this or that(and honestly I have a toddler who lost weight until I relaxed about her healthy eating and let her have some yummy junk! but I know which foods she eats is healthy and which is not), but you as the parent know what's healthy, I mean being proud of a fridge of gatorade and energy drinks? Really?

I do know MANY children who eat fast food literally everyday. My nephew at age 2 commonly has two cheeseburgers, fries and soda or juice from McD's. A neice had cheesesticks and corndogs EVERY DAY, for lunch and dinner. That neice will not eat anything homemade except pork chops. Nothing. When we'd have our huge family t-giving lunch together, there she was with her corndogs.

I hate babysitting those kids of parents who only feed junk/fast food, bc they just won't eat the whole time, even if it's 3 days! I will try to make the homemade version, such as pigs-in-a-blanket, but that doesn't work.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> How can someone not know that real food is better than fast food/boxed/frozen meals?


I don;t think that they don't know it's better. I think that they think the packaged stuff is "normal" and the real food is "the ideal." Like the formula companies mess up breastfeeding by marketing it as the ideal, families who see cooking recipes with ingredients as the ideal don't do it because, after all, who's perfect?


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## JenVose (Jun 17, 2013)

I, too, have unfortunately seen way too much of this type of behavior happening. As a major advocate of baby-led weaning, I think at least part of it may have to do with using baby-food as a transitional food for children. Many parents in this generation may use baby food and the first "real" food that baby gets is this highly-processed junk, as a treat they just don't want to withhold, and I can definitely see that when a child's first experiences with flavor/texture are these foods they may develop an obvious preference. Although I know that baby food has been used for years without these problems, it is more recent that our society has moved more and more toward the fast-food trend, so I think in the past it wasn't as much of a problem as babies were more frequently transitioned from baby foods to home-cooked meals vs. fast food.

We have at least one friend whose daughter refused to eat anything other than McDonald's chicken nuggets from the time she was around 2 until she was around 5. They bought them for her every single day!

On the first occasion when our little girl had a McDonald's chicken nugget, she really liked it and we were kind of laughing about it. But we both agreed that if she were to ever show a preference for fast-food options over "real" food, that we wouldn't be having fast food for a long while. As it was, our daughter likes broccoli just as much as she does McNuggets, and I can actually envision her choosing broccoli over the nugget if they were side-by-side.

We do include fast-food, and possibly more than we should, in our diets. Since our daughter eats what we do, sometimes I feel that it's more than what she should have. But it's something we are well aware of, and we have always made certain that it isn't enough to change her food preferences. I found myself laughing and proud the other day when I brought a TV dinner to work with us for lunch because we are often on the go. It was turkey/stuffing; mashed potatoes and green peas. My daughter spit out everything except the peas and ate the majority of the peas from my TV dinner!

In our household, we did a kind of modified baby-led weaning - we did use some baby cereal (oatmeal), when she showed an early interest around 4 months in sampling our foods and a hunger that didn't seem to be completely satisfied with nursing (we started by offering banana, but she doesn't like banana). So we used oatmeal and mashed avocado. And around 8 months, when she was regularly having samples of food and we started actual meals rather than just sharing when she showed interest, we did use baby food on some occasions for lunches. By that time, she was more accustomed to complex flavors and refused any other than mixed vegetables - she didn't like the bland meats at all, and refused single vegetables even when they were vegetables that she otherwise loved. I might note that many of her vegetables at home were either fresh from farmer's market or frozen with no additives with little or no seasoning, and after tasting the single baby food I can attest that it is still much more bland than the "real" food on its own.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh, my. Sadly, yes - this is more common than we'd like to believe. For the record, I NEVER buy soda, and 98% of the time I cook from scratch or very close to it. I went through a dark time when lived with my ex and his family in a teensy cornfield town in Ohio, where feeding your kids fast food and soda (or "pop" as they said) was very normal. When we moved there, my DS was 9 mos old...and my ex MIL wanted to feed him Coke and Cheetos!!! So she gave him some Cheetos and Coke in spite of my protests...and to my smug satisfaction, he promptly vomited them up, all over her bedspread. A few months later, MIL's sister told me she used to put Mtn Dew in her kids' baby bottles (?!!) and said through her dentures, as she waddled her 100lb overweight physique over to me, "Oh, let the baby have some - it ain't gonna hurt him none." REALLY?! Then my ex FIL would call on his way home every night, and ask if we wanted Arby's, KFC, or Long John Silvers for dinner. I finally had to start repeating a mantra to my ex-in-laws: "Real food doesn't come in a package. I feed my son real food."

Then one hot day, in this same little town, I was desperate to get a drink for myself & DS (by then about 18mos), and I stopped at KFC...when I asked the girl what kind of juice they had for the baby, she replied, "Uhh...Sunkist Orange Soda, Hawaiian Punch, Hi-C, Minute Maid Lemonade..." I stopped her right there, and said "So, you don't have any *juice*, then?" And she looked at me like I was the stupid one.

Come to find out, my kids and I have celiac and a slew of other food intolerances...so we eat healthy not just by choice, but necessity. About the time I discovered these food issues, we were destitute, in a bad place, and I was on WIC. For those who don't know about WIC, it's a nice idea in theory for people who can't afford groceries, but they basically give you crap foods that are marketed to be "healthy", like cheap canned tuna (full of mercury), non-organic carrots, non-organic milk, big-brand juice, big-brand cereals (full of chemicals), etc. And then you have to regularly go to appointments where they check up on your kids' "health" and make sure you're vaccinating them and feeding them the appropriate amounts of crap foods, as dictated by the Almighty Food Pyramid.

They hated me!







We don't vax, DS had major developmental problems and allergies and would certainly have been one of the autism cases (he's still borderline ASD); he reacted so severely to all kinds of foods, additives and salicylates that I couldn't give him WIC foods or juice anymore. When I told the WIC people about this, including the fact that he was getting OT and seeing a dietician at the Early Intervention clinic, they told me I should still be feeding him at least the rice Chex, and DO NOT give him lightly sweetened chamomile tea because it has "no nutritional value, just sugar...give him the juice instead, it has vitamin C." Imagine the sound of screeching brakes in my brain: "What?! So the 8g of sugar I put in his chamomile tea is bad, but the juice that has 28g of sugar and makes him break out in a blistered rash is better for him because of the vitamin C?! Are you people dumb, or just stupid?!" My point to all this is, even "health professionals" can be stupefyingly ignorant of what healthy foods really are. It's no wonder the general public gets duped into buying so much junk food.

"Real food doesn't come in a package."


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

Seems my hubby was discussing what solids our 7mo baby eats with someone and she was horrified. "Minced fruit, vegetables, and meat, usually a little of whatever is soft enough of what we are having" "nooo you have to give them jarred baby food and cereal!"


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## Danie Love (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't want to be mean but seriously? I grew up on boxed or canned food. I didn't know about nutrition or how to cook most veggies. Healthy food was very limited in my house. This WAS my parents fault. They simply did not prioritize eating well. In fact when I was about 25 years old I finally saw an unprocessed jar of pasta sauce at a friends house who worked a natural supermarket. I was shocked to see only 5 ingredients on the back. How could you even make food without all those ingredients I can't pronounce.

Well, from that point on I went to find out.

I decided to learn about health and how to cook. And low and behold ALL of the info is online. Now I can see if you are poor and don't have access to the internet but these people are not poor. Their priorities are messed up. One makes a clean house and guilt more important than eating right. The next makes guilt more important than eating right.

IF your kids get hungry enough they WILL eat what you put in front of them. When I was doing daycare I had parents tell me "oh my child will only eat noodles with nothing on them, yogurt, and peanut butter". Funny, when in my house they ate everything all the other children ate.

This is not the childrens fault by any means. The fact that the parents need someone to come in and tell them what to do seems insane to me. You know what you need to do. It's obvious to anyone - they just put other things first - as a priority.

In the end if you are of middle or upper class means, if your children are living like this it is entirely within your control and it's your responsibility.


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## mandak78 (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh this drives me nuts. No, I'm not perfect, and yes, we do sometimes have frozen lasagna or fast-food, but I try hard to keep it to once a week or less. Our son was 2 years old before he'd EVER tasted fast food. Now he's nearly 3 and he knows what it is, likes French fries and corn dogs, but he knows those are special treats. But I know plenty of people who raise their kids on a diet consisting of less than half real, cooked food. When I was teaching, I had a student who routinely came running in late, McDonald's burrito in hand, then of course, she'd forgotten her lunch, so dad would bring her burger king, McDonald's or convenience store junk food for lunch. This happened probably 3 days per week. And you know what? That little third grader probably weighed 120 lbs. at just 4 feet tall. In fact, in kinder and first grade, she was so heavy and immobile that if she fell down, someone HAD to help her up, because she couldn't maneuver on her own. And running on the playground was out of the question. Really it boiled down to parents being irresponsible. Parents were split, would try to make nice with the girls by letting them stay up late, resulting in late wake up, rush to get ready, no time to make breakfast or pack lunch, then dad (or mom or gma) felt sorry for being late, so they'd mark up for it with more crap food for lunch. Our school district started a healthy food science program, providing fruits or vegetAbles for tasting once a month. The lesson plan included info on nutrients, servings, history of the food, along with a taste-test comparison. We sampled everything from blood oranges to beefsteak tomatoes to different salad greens. And you know what? She LOVED it! But her parents didn't like that stuff so they refused to buy it for her to eat. Luckily, I did have several kids who started bringing new fruits and veggies in their lunches and snacks. But of course, those were the kids who already had half-dozen eating habits to begin with.


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## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

JamieCatheryn-Lol, even though it's not a laughing matter, but I got a chuckle from that one. As I run into it all too often. Same for those feeding picky toddlers what the kid wants.

And, those kids may be tall and thin, but malnourished. We can't see what's going on inside.

My3beasties-we're food allergy too, and I wish we'd have known right away. It would have made making food changes so much easier to deal with if we'd been doing it all along. We were very rarely (like travelling) fast food people, and having food allergies takes away the quickness of stopping there. We have to pack snacks/lunches, or seek out healthier places to eat.

Cynthia-plenty of people eat like this. It's a wonder people know what real food is any longer.

I look at it this way-the parent is in control, not the child. If you don't buy it, you can't eat it, nor can your kids.

Dh and I, and some of my friends have been talking about this recently, not exactly about fast food, but caving to our kids wanting things that aren't the most ideal for meals, and making more than one meal to satisfy all in the family. We're probably all guilty of it at some point. But when I think of when we were kids-we ate what was in front of us or we didn't eat at all. Especially my grandparents time. Mostly whole food/cooked meals. It's something we are trying very hard to imprint on our family and how we want to eat. There are days my kids have skipped meals out of being stubborn. Their option if they don't want a meal we made is fruit, not cereal or anything else processed. If they're hungry, they'll eat the fruit or some of the meal.

I don't have exp with sensory issues and food. I'm not sure how I'd handle it, but only giving my child one or two things would be hard. When does it start? With the start of solids, as a toddler?


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## JenVose (Jun 17, 2013)

Quote:


> Dh and I, and some of my friends have been talking about this recently, not exactly about fast food, but caving to our kids wanting things that aren't the most ideal for meals, and making more than one meal to satisfy all in the family. We're probably all guilty of it at some point. But when I think of when we were kids-we ate what was in front of us or we didn't eat at all. Especially my grandparents time. Mostly whole food/cooked meals. It's something we are trying very hard to imprint on our family and how we want to eat. There are days my kids have skipped meals out of being stubborn. Their option if they don't want a meal we made is fruit, not cereal or anything else processed. If they're hungry, they'll eat the fruit or some of the meal.


Yes, I think a lot of it has to do with the behavior of parents "caving in" to their children. I can tell you if we had a meal that our daughter absolutely refused to eat - and I'm sure the day is coming (thus far, most foods she has ever refused have been of little nutritional value or at least not foods that I worry about her not eating), the alternative would definitely be something that I'm sure a lot of children would find distasteful - leafy greens (maybe turnip greens), broccoli, lima beans or another type of bean. Then again, these would probably be one of the things she'd ask for instead, so maybe I would be caving in!

Visiting my parents one time, my father forgot that she absolutely loves cake but isn't a big fan of icing. She was digging into a bowl of beans that my Mom was helping her with and Dad scooped up some extra icing on a spoon and offered her a bite. She spit it right back out and went back to the beans with a boisterous "Mmmmmm...." after each bite.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JamieCatheryn*
> 
> Seems my hubby was discussing what solids our 7mo baby eats with someone and she was horrified. "Minced fruit, vegetables, and meat, usually a little of whatever is soft enough of what we are having" "nooo you have to give them jarred baby food and cereal!"










Hahaha - Awesome!! Our kids were all the same way - they wanted whatever we were eating! On the rare occasions I tried jarred baby food, all 3 of them HATED it - spit it out immediately.

Hate to be "Captain Obvious" here, but if you deny them real food when they first "ask" for it as babies, and instead give them something processed in a jar, how can you expect them to eat the same thing you do later?! "









On the other hand, my kids' favorite foods now are things like homemade chicken & veggie soup, chicken marsala, salmon, black bean & avocado tacos, zucchini bread - and the 4yo loves baby kale salad with cucumber and radishes (like Peter Rabbit -







).


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hippy mum*
> 
> My3beasties-we're food allergy too, and I wish we'd have known right away. It would have made making food changes so much easier to deal with if we'd been doing it all along. We were very rarely (like travelling) fast food people, and having food allergies takes away the quickness of stopping there. We have to pack snacks/lunches, or seek out healthier places to eat.
> 
> ...


Yep, we have to pack snacks/lunches everywhere we go, too! DH finds it equally amusing and annoying - he has NO allergies, so when we take the kids to the water park for the day and I have to spend 1/2 an hour packing enough food for an army, he can get a little irritated. But he laughs, hugs me, and says that not many moms are great enough to spend 75% of their days either planning meals for their kids, cooking or cleaning up dishes. He's really great at making me feel good about the amount of work I put in!

We do the same thing you do with making one meal for the whole family, and if they don't want to eat what's in front of them, too bad. They can eat veggies or fruit instead. Most of the time, they'll at least try a bite of everything, and sometimes figure out they actually like it! I can't stand when kids are so spoiled, they think they can run the show and get whatever they want anytime they want it. Our kids are also taught to thank us for dinner before asking to be excused and clearing their plates...our grandparent's generation had the manners and respect thing right!

My oldest DS has some sensory issues, and he started with solid foods as a baby/toddler. The injuries from his birth trauma made it hard for him to use his tongue to clear certain foods from the mouth, like mashed potatoes...he still won't eat stuff like that. You basically have to find textures they like, and get creative with varieties of nutrient-dense foods that fit their sensory preferences. Every kid is different, our nutritionist was a Godsend in helping me with that one!


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## Monica S (Oct 31, 2012)

All your comments remind me of the documentary A Place at the Table. Has anyone here seen it?

A lot of people don't know about better nutrition. A lot of people know, but they're too poor to eat healthy. And other people would like to eat healthier, but can't find the good foods at the grocery stores in their area.


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## Sheepdoc (Dec 21, 2006)

I once caught a bit on TV where they were interviewing a family whose daughter was born with a heart defect and she had to be a certain weight to have surgery. Mom and Dad were both obese (link between bad nutrition and other maladies? ) and they showed a typical meal of cheeseburger and chicken nuggets and cola and them telling the four year old, "no more meat until you have a sip of soda." and the parents lamenting how hard it was for their daughter to gain weight. And how they were worried they'd have to postpone surgery.
Yes the parents should educate themselves more that a calorie is not a calorie but then again the doctors etc... Need to drive this point home as well and not just focus on weight.


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## fayebond (Jun 16, 2012)

Well, about once a week, my kids eat fast food. And the rest of the week I work to give each girl 1 peice of whole fruit a day. A whole pear is a messy PITA,and they get it because I love them and I want them to associate food with its whole, natural, created state. Not because its easy or gets them out of my way to finish the meal (french fries on the other hand are a dependable 10 minutes of peace). The pear is less expensive than the fries. just for the record, so its not a cost issue when we eat out, its a priorities issue. I suspect that is the problem with these parents, on a larger worldview kind of scale.


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## fayebond (Jun 16, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *my3beasties*
> Imagine the sound of screeching brakes in my brain: "What?! So the 8g of sugar I put in his chamomile tea is bad, but the juice that has 28g of sugar and makes him break out in a blistered rash is better for him because of the vitamin C?! Are you people dumb, or just stupid?!" My point to all this is, even "health professionals" can be stupefyingly ignorant of what healthy foods really are. It's no wonder the general public gets duped into buying so much junk food.
> 
> "Real food doesn't come in a package."


LOVE!


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *my3beasties*
> 
> Come to find out, my kids and I have celiac and a slew of other food intolerances...so we eat healthy not just by choice, but necessity. About the time I discovered these food issues, we were destitute, in a bad place, and I was on WIC. For those who don't know about WIC, it's a nice idea in theory for people who can't afford groceries, but they basically give you crap foods that are marketed to be "healthy", like cheap canned tuna (full of mercury), non-organic carrots, non-organic milk, big-brand juice, big-brand cereals (full of chemicals), etc. And then you have to regularly go to appointments where they check up on your kids' "health" and make sure you're vaccinating them and feeding them the appropriate amounts of crap foods, as dictated by the Almighty Food Pyramid.
> 
> ...


Just a thought that ran through my mind as I read this - does WIC provide nutritional supplements as part of their package?


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## Ragana (Oct 15, 2002)

What stood out to me about the families in the film was that there were other problems, not just food: very young teen mom (I know that's not always a "problem," but it seemed to be for her) and in poor health to boot (heart attack in her teens - must have been something going on!), mom with OCD spending 5 days a week cleaning her house, parents and baby who had been traumatized by baby's meningitis at 6 mos. The junk food thing seems like a symptom of larger dysfunction rather than just ignorance about what is healthy.


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## Monica S (Oct 31, 2012)

Here's another interesting random story... I was born in 1980 in Romania. At the time, the country was under the communist regime and considered to be part of the 3rd world countries. We didn't have any fast food, very little processed foods and everything was for the most part "organic" and farm-fresh because peasants were too poor to use fertilizers and chemicals for their crops. Because most food was rationalized (1kg of flour per family, and stuff like that), most of the food my family ate came from my grandparents' backyard. All the eggs, all the vegetables, most of the meat and grains too. In today's view, you would call that "organic" and "sustainable". Back then, it was the only way. After 1990 we received some aid from Western European countries and one of the boxes contained instant chicken noodle soup. I was probably 12 years old when I ate my first processed food. Until then, everything was cooked from scratch. To this day I remember the moment: that instant soup was so tasty - packed with sodium and MSG, my taste buds were experiencing an explosion of flavor I was not used to. 20 minutes after I ate that soup I got really, really sick. My stomach was not used to the chemicals and whatever else was in that heavily processed food.

I was one of those kids who loved every vegetable and knew what each and every one of them was. Sometimes my grandmother would send me to the backyard with a basket, a knife and a "shopping list" to procure the ingredients for that day's soup straight from the garden: a few carrots, a few onions (that I had to dig out myself), a few tomatoes (oh, the smell of those!!) etc. We were poor 3rd world country people, but in hindsight I feel very lucky and grateful now to have had that experience.

In any case, my point is that exposing your children to healthy foods and making them try out all vegetables and not be afraid of them from an early age will help them form good eating habits from early on. I now meet adults all the time who won't touch salads, tomatoes or some other vegetables or fruit just because they didn't grow up eating them and are not familiar with the taste or don't crave them.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
> 
> Just a thought that ran through my mind as I read this - does WIC provide nutritional supplements as part of their package?


Nope - just certain foods. They portray these foods as providing all the basic nutrition a child would need, and they do not allow substitutions, even in the case of severe allergies (such as, swapping out canned tuna for canned chicken). The nutritional "education" they provide parents with is pathetically incomplete and touts all the "benefits" of feeding your kids dairy products and processed foods like General Mills cereals and Juicy Juice. Their health advice revolves around regular vaccination schedules and growth percentile charts...if your child is otherwise healthy, but tall & slender (like mine), they advise you to feed him more cheese and fattening things. I guess because their percentile charts are skewed by all the obese kids they see??









You're only allowed to get things like the cheapest brands of milk & eggs, cheese, peanut butter, juice, cereal, cheap baby formula, and only breastfeeding moms can get the cheap tuna and carrots...but only non-organic, nothing "DHA-added" or otherwise enhanced with healthy additives.

The only thing I found mildly helpful was the eggs, peanut butter, carrots and bags of dried beans...which I would boil down into soup with whatever meat I could afford, usually bone-in chicken thighs, and things like celery, onions, and frozen peas.

So it did help me a little when I really needed it, but I quickly realized their program was NOT designed to provide kids' developing brains and bodies with the best possible nutrition, but rather to keep them and their disadvantaged parents "dumbed down". The whole program, in my opinion, is unconscionable, Orwellian propaganda. Having been there myself, I know how heart-wrenching it is to be aware of what's healthy, but have no other choice than to accept what you're given...so I have a lot of empathy for parents who are in that situation. Words can't describe how thankful I am those days are over for us, and I have a wonderful DH now who works his butt off to provide for our family.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

I finally watched the video that started this. I suppose learning to cook at home was a huge step they aimed for, but I was startled to see the stuff they called healthy alternatives - cereal, yogurt raisins, pasta, and sad to see they still demonize sat fats. Also, interesting that they mentioned little Cuba "foraging", it's so great having good options (only) around when kids want to feed themselves. It might end up unbalanced (too much nuts and fruit in my kids' case) but at least they're eating and it's good stuff in general. But what the foraging brought up for me was when my kids go out and eat wood sorrel like candy, and snap peas and baby spinach from outside. And back in CA my DH as a child eating anise as candy and collecting mussels for dinner.


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## oliversmama212 (Aug 28, 2013)

This video made me so sad, seeing those little kids drinking soda and eating all that crap, my heart broke!!!


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

Yeah, I am from Germany - and though we do eat fast food and processed food (as a group) traditional food still has it's role. Cooking is a big thing here, and home baking and stuff. (it gets a little bit like in the u.s. but sloooowly)

I worked in the u.k. for a couple of years, and I was really stunned by the food the english people offer their babies (in general) there were so many kids in strollers with sugared drinks and cheesy sticks (I don't know what they are called) at an age were people in germany would not even think about giving that to their kids. I have never seen a stroller age child with crisp or salty snacks here (but with cookies, to be honest 

I think it has something to do with culture as well, but I am not sure ....


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## sierramtngirl (Jun 19, 2013)

I have to chime in about this and feel that I have an angle similar to mamarhu's. I am a nutritionist (& registered dietitian). The ignorance about basic nutrition info is unbelievable. The sad fact is that most people don't know how to cook and unfortunately our fast food/processed food society is enabling this to go on.....
With that said, there are programs (albeit small and way too few & far between) including the WIC program that can help. It's unfortunate that my3beasties had such a horrible experience with the program, as this was not my experience AT ALL. I grew up very poor (but with loving parents, mind you who did their very best) with younger sibs who were on the WIC program. Yes, there was a lot of juice- but my mom bought tomato juice to cook with. Yes, there was a lot of dairy, but dairy is a minimally processed food that does remain an affordable source of protein. My mom main homemade yogurt (which she learned how to do from a WIC nutrition workshop). Yes, there was processed cereal, but my mom bought old-fashioned oats that stretched much further than a box of Cheerios. And the beans were a mainstay in our diets. I remember tuna cakes, and at times, the carrots were the only fresh produce at the table. The nutritionist (who did have a nutrition degree but was not a registered dietitian) allowed me to shadow her when I expressed interest in becoming a nutrition professional. The program isn't perfect, but has improved greatly even today and participants can now get fresh produce- lots of fruits and veggies. As well as buy produce from the local farmers market (this was actually part of the program when my family participated, but our little community out in Hoo-hoo Holler did not have a farmers market).
I'm not saying that the program isn't without it's problems, but for my family it was very helpful- such a blessing during difficult times.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
> 
> You did mention juice as being a better choice. I know nutritional advice now to be to avoid juice because of the high calorie content and it being so easy for kids and adults to down those liquid calories and think it is part of a healthy diet. Has that changed?
> 
> I know juice is not an ideal, or even a neutral, addition to the diet. But for some of the families I work with, it is as close as they will get to fruit. Folks who live in an urban area without a car often have few shopping choices. It is called a food desert. The only store in walking distance might be a mini-market, primarily stocking beer and soda pop, chips and candy. In my area, 3 major supermarkets have closed in the last few years. No fresh produce or meats are available. So for these families, juice seems better than soda pop. What amazes me is the number of families, who really don't have enough to eat by the end of the month, yet they buy bottled water. My city has GREAT tap water, yet these folks buy individual size water bottles by the case. That is really a case of the corporations creating the need and then convincing the public they need a product. Even if our water wasn't so good, a one time purchase of a filter system would solve the problem.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

I see this all of time here. Were so insulated from it as a family that frankly I'm surprised when we see a fast food restaurant full of people, but I guess that's reality.

I have to stick up for WIC, though. We don't qualify for it anymore, blessedly, but I used it for years when we had less money. I'm no fan of juice, cereal, and so on, but this program was so helpful to us. We watered down the juice, or used it make things like jelly. We even used milk to make yogurt at times. So it wasn't organic... But we were nowhere near being able to afford organic. We bought dried beans and sometimes evaporated milk. The tuna was always no-albacore (less mercury). We bought cream of wheat instead of Cheerios and used it in baking as well. Make do with what you have, you know? In California they give farmers market coupons each month, too!

They gave out breast pumps and other bfing supplies!

We were oddballs with vaccines, extended breastfeeding, etc, and had one child who was not even on the charts for weight she was so slight. So we had our struggles, but overall WIC was such a great thing.


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## greenkri (Jun 10, 2013)

I have to agree that WIC can be extremely helpful for some families. As for the milk, most families on WIC couldn't afford organic milk anyways. There are plenty of alternatives to the processed cold cereals, such as cream of wheat or oatmeal. There are lots of veggie options, and frankly the non-organic thing isn't an issue for me because I can't afford to buy organic without WIC anyways. Sure it is tough if you make specific dietary choices that don't allow you to use certain vouchers because you won't eat the product, but how is that worse than not getting the voucher at all?

As to the ignorance issue, unfortunately not everyone is curious and interested in educating themselves. Information has to be presented to them in an accessible way, or they just don't know it and won't seek it out. It's hard not to judge people making these decisions, but we all have our personality strengths and weaknesses, and challenges in life. What bothers me isn't the individuals, but our whole society that doesn't try to better itself to educate the whole. Those who do know better, but don't make good choices that affect their children and families are the people that bother me. If it was more "cool" to actually care about nutrition and the types of food that we are given access to, then I think things would be much better.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Some people truly don't get it and some do but don't care. I have a friend who is a mix of both. She just doesn't care enough to learn so she remains ignorant.

When her oldest was in kindy she would throw a Lunchables in his backpack every day. After a few weeks, the teacher pointed out to her that they weren't really very healthy due in part to the high sodium content. So instead she made a sandwich of cheap deli ham on white bread and added a Capri Sun and bag of Doritos. And was proud of it, like she had actually made an improvement!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *greenkri*
> As to the ignorance issue, unfortunately not everyone is curious and interested in educating themselves. Information has to be presented to them in an accessible way, or they just don't know it and won't seek it out. It's hard not to judge people making these decisions, but we all have our personality strengths and weaknesses, and challenges in life. What bothers me isn't the individuals, but our whole society that doesn't try to better itself to educate the whole. Those who do know better, but don't make good choices that affect their children and families are the people that bother me. If it was more "cool" to actually care about nutrition and the types of food that we are given access to, then I think things would be much better.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
> Some people truly don't get it and some do but don't care. I have a friend who is a mix of both. She just doesn't care enough to learn so she remains ignorant.
> 
> When her oldest was in kindy she would throw a Lunchables in his backpack every day. After a few weeks, the teacher pointed out to her that they weren't really very healthy due in part to the high sodium content. So instead she made a sandwich of cheap deli ham on white bread and added a Capri Sun and bag of Doritos. And was proud of it, like she had actually made an improvement!


I was having a conversation w/ a friend today. She's gluten intolerant & has issues w/ dairy. She recently was at a frineds to celebrate both their birthdays, with a lot of food that she hasn't eaten in a long time. She ate a bunch of it which had gluten & dairy in it. The next day she was lethargic, foggy, felt like sitting on the couch, doing nothing all day. She had no motivation. As we were talking, I said that listening to how she felt afterwards, I had to wonder how many people out in the general public, feel like this on a regular basis because of what they eat. How many people look like lazy couch potatoes, but wouldn't be if they weren't eating things that actually turned them into couch potatoes because of what it did to their minds & bodies? So, reading these replies reminded me of that. I wonder how many people are truly paralyzed?

Sus


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

I didn't really understand how bad the majority of peoples food habits were and just how many people are obese until our county fair two weeks ago. I mean everyone eats crapat the fair but I was way shocked at the number of familes where every single person no matter what age in the famuly was obese. Its sad.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Even if people do have an interest in feeding their family better, the stress of poverty can be a overwhelming. We had the opportunity to help a family that was living on the edge (as in no money food, zero, on a regular basis). The mother did an amazing job with what she had but after working full-time and caring for the children, there wasn't enough physical and emotional energy at the end of the day to expand her cooking skills. We stocked their freezer with meat (beef and pork) that she had no idea how to cook. I could see the stress on her face as I was explaining how easy it was to put a roast in the crock pot.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sierramtngirl*
> 
> I have to chime in about this and feel that I have an angle similar to mamarhu's. I am a nutritionist (& registered dietitian). The ignorance about basic nutrition info is unbelievable. The sad fact is that most people don't know how to cook and unfortunately our fast food/processed food society is enabling this to go on.....
> With that said, there are programs (albeit small and way too few & far between) including the WIC program that can help. It's unfortunate that my3beasties had such a horrible experience with the program, as this was not my experience AT ALL. I grew up very poor (but with loving parents, mind you who did their very best) with younger sibs who were on the WIC program. Yes, there was a lot of juice- but my mom bought tomato juice to cook with. Yes, there was a lot of dairy, but dairy is a minimally processed food that does remain an affordable source of protein. My mom main homemade yogurt (which she learned how to do from a WIC nutrition workshop). Yes, there was processed cereal, but my mom bought old-fashioned oats that stretched much further than a box of Cheerios. And the beans were a mainstay in our diets. I remember tuna cakes, and at times, the carrots were the only fresh produce at the table. The nutritionist (who did have a nutrition degree but was not a registered dietitian) allowed me to shadow her when I expressed interest in becoming a nutrition professional. The program isn't perfect, but has improved greatly even today and participants can now get fresh produce- lots of fruits and veggies. As well as buy produce from the local farmers market (this was actually part of the program when my family participated, but our little community out in Hoo-hoo Holler did not have a farmers market).
> I'm not saying that the program isn't without it's problems, but for my family it was very helpful- such a blessing during difficult times.


Sierramtngirl, I'm so glad you had a mom who was able to make good choices with the WIC foods!! It is definitely a blessing during difficult times, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was ungrateful at all for the help it provided. I guess I was being critical of the way our WIC program was - they did not provide the kind of education workshops that would help people make healthier choices with the foods given, and instead steered us toward processed foods. At the time, there was no option for farmer's markets or other fresh produce...seems they have expanded the program over the last few years, which is great!

I did a lot of creative cooking with the WIC foods we could eat, and when it came to the point that we could hardly get anything on the list because of our allergies and intolerances, I felt it wasn't worthwhile continuing with the program, especially with how condescending these individuals were about our different needs and unwilling to provide alternatives for us. It would have been easy enough to say "Oh, you can't drink milk, so try rice milk instead", or "If you can't eat tuna, how about canned salmon" but they wouldn't allow any substitutions or even offer suggestions. I couldn't afford much, so our fridge was usually very empty, but even still, we wound up being healthier in the long run. I am very glad to see they have improved WIC so much...even though it didn't work for us, I know first-hand it can be such a help to those in need.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
> 
> I was having a conversation w/ a friend today. She's gluten intolerant & has issues w/ dairy. She recently was at a frineds to celebrate both their birthdays, with a lot of food that she hasn't eaten in a long time. She ate a bunch of it which had gluten & dairy in it. The next day she was lethargic, foggy, felt like sitting on the couch, doing nothing all day. She had no motivation. As we were talking, I said that listening to how she felt afterwards, I had to wonder how many people out in the general public, feel like this on a regular basis because of what they eat. How many people look like lazy couch potatoes, but wouldn't be if they weren't eating things that actually turned them into couch potatoes because of what it did to their minds & bodies? So, reading these replies reminded me of that. I wonder how many people are truly paralyzed?
> 
> Sus


I felt like this the first 28 years of my life, and couldn't figure out why! It wasn't until my DS was 2 that I found out he has celiac and a ton of food intolerances, and so do I. Once we changed our diet, I felt like a different person! For the first time in my life, I had energy, no digestive problems, and wasn't in pain. DS was all of a sudden a healthy child, where before, he was so sickly it broke my heart.

When you eat gluten and all these allergens every meal of your life, you get used to it and feeling like crap all the time seems "normal". I've often wondered the same thing: how many people are out there who are overweight couch potatoes, and in chronic pain with all kinds of health problems, because they have undiagnosed celiac or food allergies?? I bet the number is staggering. The problem is, you become addicted to these junk foods, and getting your body on a clean diet is just as hard as getting clean from some kind of drug...so I think many people, even if they realize it, don't have the willpower to kick the junk food habit.


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## skinnyloveBC (Jan 12, 2012)

I didn't read all of the posts... I scanned but couldn't bring myself to indulge in all of the criticism--open and veiled. My heart aches for the countless moms who are doing their best but are having their choices strewn on a forum without their permission for strangers to "tisk-tisk" at, or worse. And I feel saddened not so much for the "obese kids at the fair" who were enjoying their corn dogs, but for the mamas posting here who were more concerned about what other families looked like and were eating than enjoying the outing with her own family.

Instead of openly criticizing others, I hope that I can teach my infant daughter to love people and reach out to them from a sincere place to help them where they're at. For example, sharing healthy snacks with the "obese" kids at school, or inviting the obese kids to play fun games at recess. Isn't that a better legacy than putting up one's nose in disgust or veiling that disgust with pity??

And for the record, my mom is overweight and we've always eaten phenomenally (read: wild game, fresh veggies, and almost no fast food). It tears her heart out to be glared at and judged by strangers. And my husband is extremely fit and healthy and was fed almost entirely junk food just about from birth. Just a reminder that no one can accurately judge a book by its cover.

Well, that's my two cents. The post that stuck out to me the most on this topic was the first poster's (*mamahru*). She spoke from actual experience--not as the critical neighbor or judgmental stranger--as the person genuinely seeking to educate and empathize with mamas. I appreciate her sharing her experience and insight into such a complex topic!


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *my3beasties*
> 
> Sierramtngirl, I'm so glad you had a mom who was able to make good choices with the WIC foods!! It is definitely a blessing during difficult times, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was ungrateful at all for the help it provided. I guess I was being critical of the way our WIC program was - they did not provide the kind of education workshops that would help people make healthier choices with the foods given, and instead steered us toward processed foods. At the time, there was no option for farmer's markets or other fresh produce...seems they have expanded the program over the last few years, which is great!
> 
> I did a lot of creative cooking with the WIC foods we could eat, and when it came to the point that we could hardly get anything on the list because of our allergies and intolerances, I felt it wasn't worthwhile continuing with the program, especially with how condescending these individuals were about our different needs and unwilling to provide alternatives for us. *It would have been easy enough to say "Oh, you can't drink milk, so try rice milk instead", or "If you can't eat tuna, how about canned salmon" but they wouldn't allow any substitutions* or even offer suggestions. I couldn't afford much, so our fridge was usually very empty, but even still, we wound up being healthier in the long run. I am very glad to see they have improved WIC so much...even though it didn't work for us, I know first-hand it can be such a help to those in need.


Concerning what I bolded, WIC was started as a farm subsidy program. In the simplest sense, it was used to keep the dairy prices up first, providing food aid second which is probably why alternative foods (rice milk as an example) aren't offered/permitted, it doesn't help the dairy industry. Someone correct me please if I am wrong, I volunteered with the program but that was 20+ years ago.


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm not sure anyone was sticking their nose up in the air or anything. I think most or all of us are legitimately shocked that people feed their kids this way, ie: giving a 19 month old up to 6 cans of coke a day. Giving him that much pop has nothing to do with being poor (which they are not) or not knowing that that is bad for him. And I wasn't saying that people were wrong for letting their kids have corn dogs at the fair, I was saying that I was surprised at the number of families where all the people were obese. I'm not talking about heavier person who is healthy, I'm talking about obesity. I don't think sharing a healthy snack with an overweight kid at school is going to make their parents wake up and stop giving them junk food, for whatever reason they have, for every meal. The 'everybody just needs a hug, and everything will be better' attitude just doesn't work and having a greater and greater number of people raising kids with terrible eating habits is going to effect everybody.

I think not watching the video, skimming posts, and then saying that we are all bashing fat people and being snobs is a little bit judgemental.


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## jabs (Mar 11, 2010)

I grew up in the 70's in an upper-middle class suburb of NYC. My parents were both Irish immigrants who grew up on rural farms. My mother knew how to cook, understood nutrition basics, but just didn't care enough to provide us with homecooked meals. She was usually drunk when we came home from school. If she was half in the bag , we'd actually drive to get Chinese take-out, pizza, McDonald's or on Wednesdays she would take advantage of the "Wednesday is Sundae " at Carvel. Sure, we thought it was great. If she was too drunk to drive she'd open a bag of frozen chicken and veggies , put it in a pot and add water. If she was passed out, my older brother would make pasta and add a can of sauce. We ate homeooked meals on the weekends when my dad was home. Meat and potatoes, Irish stew, good, hearty farm food. Nevertheless, when I went to college and lived with a few women in a rented house off campus I discovered many fruits and vegetables I never knew existed. I borrowed their Moosewood Cookbooks and taught myself basic nutrition and how to cook nutritious meals. I started eating correctly for the first time in my life and I was furious at my mother for her neglect.

Sometimes you just have to face the facts that certain parents don't give a crap about their children's welfare.


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jabs*
> 
> I grew up in the 70's in an upper-middle class suburb of NYC. My parents were both Irish immigrants who grew up on rural farms. My mother knew how to cook, understood nutrition basics, but just didn't care enough to provide us with homecooked meals. She was usually drunk when we came home from school. If she was half in the bag , we'd actually drive to get Chinese take-out, pizza, McDonald's or on Wednesdays she would take advantage of the "Wednesday is Sundae " at Carvel. Sure, we thought it was great. If she was too drunk to drive she'd open a bag of frozen chicken and veggies , put it in a pot and add water. If she was passed out, my older brother would make pasta and add a can of sauce. We ate homeooked meals on the weekends when my dad was home. Meat and potatoes, Irish stew, good, hearty farm food. Nevertheless, when I went to college and lived with a few women in a rented house off campus I discovered many fruits and vegetables I never knew existed. I borrowed their Moosewood Cookbooks and taught myself basic nutrition and how to cook nutritious meals. I started eating correctly for the first time in my life and I was furious at my mother for her neglect.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to face the facts that certain parents don't give a crap about their children's welfare.


Sorry that happened to you. It's great you were able to learn nutrition at a later time. That's how I was. We ate fruits and vegetables and home cooked meals but they were still mostly part of the SADiet. I was "healthy" but had some health problems come to light after graduating high school and needed to kind of "reboot" my diet to solve a lot of health issues. I only recently learned about real nutrition and am greatful I don't have have picky eaters.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BaileyB*
> 
> I'm not sure anyone was sticking their nose up in the air or anything. I think most or all of us are legitimately shocked that people feed their kids this way, ie: giving a 19 month old up to 6 cans of coke a day. Giving him that much pop has nothing to do with being poor (which they are not) or not knowing that that is bad for him. And I wasn't saying that people were wrong for letting their kids have corn dogs at the fair, I was saying that I was surprised at the number of families where all the people were obese. I'm not talking about heavier person who is healthy, I'm talking about _obesity._ I don't think sharing a healthy snack with an overweight kid at school is going to make their parents wake up and stop giving them junk food, for whatever reason they have, for every meal. The 'everybody just needs a hug, and everything will be better' attitude just doesn't work and having a greater and greater number of people raising kids with terrible eating habits is going to effect everybody.
> 
> I think not watching the video, skimming posts, and then saying that we are all bashing fat people and being snobs is a little bit judgemental.


I read all the posts here and yes, there is some thick, heavy judgement being passed. But sadly, that doesn't surprise me in the least because the mommy wars have proven to be quite prevalent here in recent years.

As to your example of the 18 month old who drinks 6 cans of Coke a day - first could you point out to me where that was mentioned (I seemed to have missed that) and second please tell me that no one here really thinks that is a true tale. A young child consuming 72 ounces of carbonated beverage would have a difficult time having enough room in their stomach to consume much else. Sadly overdramatizing situations like this only polarize people even more.


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## JenVose (Jun 17, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TCMoulton*
> 
> As to your example of the 18 month old who drinks 6 cans of Coke a day - first could you point out to me where that was mentioned (I seemed to have missed that) and second please tell me that no one here really thinks that is a true tale. A young child consuming 72 ounces of carbonated beverage would have a difficult time having enough room in their stomach to consume much else. Sadly overdramatizing situations like this only polarize people even more.


The 18 month old who drinks up to six cans of Coke a day was a direct reference to the video in the first post. He didn't consume much else (and when he did, it was fast food or junk and he obviously had major sleep issues from the caffeine/sugar that he was bombarded with daily).


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## Sheepdoc (Dec 21, 2006)

Why does this always come up that discussing something is judgmental? I thought these posts have been quite fair.

As for the whole "not my problem" part, it is everyone's problem. These children can't speak for themselves so they need someone to advocate for them. Obesity/bad eating causes diseases that have a financial cost born by all society. The sick use limited resources that could be used elsewhere. For an example a diabetic will have more infections, they'll take more antibiotics, speeding up how fast bacteria become resistant. So when I have an infection maybe the antibiotics won't work for me.
Yes carrots and honey are nicer and its great to share those ideas. However research shows in general people are more motivated by the stick. Hence anti-smoking adds showing bad consequences.

The
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skinnyloveBC*
> 
> I didn't read all of the posts... I scanned but couldn't bring myself to indulge in all of the criticism--open and veiled. My heart aches for the countless moms who are doing their best but are having


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

We grew up poor- I suppose it is fortunate that we were so poor we grew turnips and beets and my dad shot squirrel and deer for meat. Seems like most were poor where I grew up and all of them knew how to grow a handful of turnip seeds or some pole beans. We weren't urban, obviously. We also foraged, picking mushrooms and wild greens and even stealing cover crops from the army corps of engineers land. Catching fish. We survived. In time, we were less poor, and didn't have rely on these things so much, but we still did them.

So I did grow up eating actual food, seeing It cooked and canned and preserved.

Present day in my hometown it is totally different. The families living there for the most part depend upon fast food and processed meals from the store. I'm not being judgemental when I say that, it's just the truth. The old timers are dying off and the old way of surviving while poor is being lost.

I don't hear a lot of judgement in this thread, the video is sad. It is sad that whole generations are sick from fast food and processed crap. Is it happy? No. It's not even neutral. It's sad. The addictive ( and purposefully so) qualities of these foods is only creating a worse habit, so that it is nearly impossible for people to change their diets.

I dont see how saying this is sad or expressing a sense of helplessness when it comes to it is offensive.

What I learned as a kid was about survival. In the past, poor people of all races knew these basic skills. I wish there were an easy fix.


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## sierramtngirl (Jun 19, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tabitha*
> 
> We grew up poor- I suppose it is fortunate that we were so poor we grew turnips and beets and my dad shot squirrel and deer for meat. Seems like most were poor where I grew up and all of them knew how to grow a handful of turnip seeds or some pole beans. We weren't urban, obviously. We also foraged, picking mushrooms and wild greens and even stealing cover crops from the army corps of engineers land. Catching fish. We survived. In time, we were less poor, and didn't have rely on these things so much, but we still did them.
> 
> ...


Omg tabitha! Where did you grow up? Sounds like where I'm from- i could have written your post, word for word! Everyone was poor- even the "rich" kids. But I'm very proud of my upbringing & the fact that I have those skills & hope to pass them on to my kiddo.


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