# what is worse: cio or monster mama? help.



## landgyrl (Dec 12, 2009)

Getting our DS (26months) to sleep has almost always been a challenge, to say the least. While I joke that he is too curious to want to miss anything, I'm losing it on the inside and now too frequently on the outside.

I tried CIO when he was younger, but it never felt right and didn't pursue it. These days, I'm wondering if CIO or a yelling mother is worse. My son has been resisting naps for over a week, and taking between one to one and one half hours to fall asleep at night. I've been trying to bump up bedtime to try to get him caught up on needed sleep, but with the time change and bright evenings, this has not made things any easier. My son is not one who will sleep when he needs to. Trust me, he was falling asleep while eating dinner at 5pm tonight. When he skips his nap, or is overtired in general, he will also forget to potty (which he has been doing consistently without much effort on my part since he was about 19 months). He wet himself in his highchair while eating half asleep tonight and then denied it.

I don't know what to do. I'm a mess, as the constant resistance, twice a day, is wearing on me. DH does not put him to sleep. DS will wail for me if he tries to; probably because DH never made an effort to help until recently. DH has tried a handful of times to put him down for nap then given up. DH has also said if I left him alone to put DS down, he'd figure it out, in other words he would probably let him cry. I've yelled, I've threatened, I've said no this no that if he doesn't sleep. This is not the way I want to parent, but I'm crying while trying to put him down as he is smirking and constantly moving and playing while I'm singing or rocking or rubbing his back. I've tried yoga videos, i've tried baths, i've tried reading longer, i don't know what else to try. i don't want to yell anymore. i don't want to resent my DH anymore. i don't want to feel so defeated anymore and that i don't deserve to be a mother.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> I don't know what to do. I'm a mess, as the constant resistance, twice a day, is wearing on me. DH does not put him to sleep. DS will wail for me if he tries to; probably because DH never made an effort to help until recently. DH has tried a handful of times to put him down for nap then given up. DH has also said if I left him alone to put DS down, he'd figure it out, in other words he would probably let him cry. I've yelled, I've threatened, I've said no this no that if he doesn't sleep. This is not the way I want to parent, *but I'm crying while trying to put him down as he is smirking and constantly moving and playing while I'm singing or rocking or rubbing his back.* I've tried yoga videos, i've tried baths, i've tried reading longer, i don't know what else to try. i don't want to yell anymore. i don't want to resent my DH anymore. i don't want to feel so defeated anymore and that i don't deserve to be a mother.


My ds is the exact same age. We had a HUGE struggle over sleep - and then I just stopped playing the game. He was MAD for a few nights (not panicky, not scared - MAD). I told him one day that we were going to do something different for bed time, and told him what we were going to do, and then I did it. I tucked him in, with lots of kisses and "I love you!" about a 100x, and then I left the room. And shut the door. When he got really upset, I would poke my head in and say, "good night, I love you" and then shut the door. I made sure I was doing a quiet activity that he could kinda hear (I do dishes since we don't have a dishwasher, and its right across the hall so he can hear me which is comforting to him), and went in to tell him, "good night I love you" whenever he cried (but not when he whined or was talking), and after 2 nights he was going to bed.

If your ds is smirking at you, and playing with you at night, he knows whats going on well enough that he can probably do it himself. If rubbing his back and such isn't working, don't do it. Do something else.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> My ds is the exact same age. We had a HUGE struggle over sleep - and then I just stopped playing the game. He was MAD for a few nights (not panicky, not scared - MAD). I told him one day that we were going to do something different for bed time, and told him what we were going to do, and then I did it. I tucked him in, with lots of kisses and "I love you!" about a 100x, and then I left the room. And shut the door. When he got really upset, I would poke my head in and say, "good night, I love you" and then shut the door. I made sure I was doing a quiet activity that he could kinda hear (I do dishes since we don't have a dishwasher, and its right across the hall so he can hear me which is comforting to him), and went in to tell him, "good night I love you" whenever he cried (but not when he whined or was talking), and after 2 nights he was going to bed.
> 
> If your ds is smirking at you, and playing with you at night, he knows whats going on well enough that he can probably do it himself. If rubbing his back and such isn't working, don't do it. Do something else.


Well said! I wound up doing something similar with my DD b/c she wouldn't settle with me. And OMG I don't know how people lie with their kids for hours. I'd take a hostage. It's not CIO to leave a 2 year old to settle a bit while you go do the dishes or whatever. That's basically what I did with DD. Be confident that it's time for change.


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## landgyrl (Dec 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


It seems that every time I search for this issue, I read of these parents who will lie for hours with their kids. Thank you for posting this. Thank you both for your insight. We just changed his crib to a toddler bed, so he can now get out. And the latch on the door doesn't work...so. We'll have to figure out how to get him to stay in his room for the transition. But I'm ready for a change!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> It seems that every time I search for this issue, I read of these parents who will lie for hours with their kids. Thank you for posting this. Thank you both for your insight. We just changed his crib to a toddler bed, so he can now get out. And the latch on the door doesn't work...so. We'll have to figure out how to get him to stay in his room for the transition. But I'm ready for a change!


One thing I do, is NO night lights. I refuse. I can't sleep with them on, and I don't want my ds to get attached to having one. I also don't latch the door - but he can't turn the knob very well anyway. DS won't get out of bed when the room is dark (he's not scared of the dark, but, understandably,doesn't want to put his feet down if he can't see where he's going). The first few nights, it might be that you put him back in his bed every few minutes. Until he gets it. He will. I say try for 3-4 nights, maybe a week, and see how it goes.

I do give my ds a sippy cup with milk (its a spill proof one), and he has a special blanket that I tuck him in with (it says "I love mommy" and I just decided one night when I was desperate that it would be the "special" blanket so it is), and a small menagerie of stuffed animals - a bunny, a weedle, and a baby doll - that sleep with him.

I read about how mom's on this site lay with their kids for 2 hours per night too, and I get it when they're teeny tiny, or when they're sick, but all the time? NEVER. I was going insane when it was taking us 45 minutes on a good night, and things just had to change.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Instead of advocating CIO, I will offer a compassionate suggestion. Disclaimer: I am a former lay-with-the-child-for-hours mama and proud of it!

Both of my children are diagnosed with different sleep disorders. The disorders are NOT the result of my having parented them to sleep until they no longer needed it. One has a mood disorder and the other has narcolepsy. The disordered sleeping was present from birth. for both of them.

In addition, both have dealt with various sensory processing issues. What we found helpful was using a weighted blanket. This helped my kiddos to feel soothed and centered. I would highly recommend someone in your shoes look into trying a weighted blanket.

I will also offer my personal opinion that CIO is not okay just bc X-amount of calender pages have been turned. If it's wrong at 6 mos, it's wrong at 26 mos.

Oh, yeah, and melatonin is my BFF...1mg an hour or two before bedtime works wonders. GL!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
> 
> I will also offer my personal opinion that CIO is not okay just bc X-amount of calender pages have been turned. If it's wrong at 6 mos, it's wrong at 26 mos.


I just wanted to gently let you know that we are not advocating CIO. A child who is tantruming (like 2yo's do ALL DAY LONG - especially if you live with my 2yo) is NOT being left to CIO. CIO is when you leave your child alone in the dark to scream in order to teach them not to cry at bedtime. Allowing a child to have a tantrum is a whole nother story - my ds has never been left to scream when he was panicked or scared, only when he was having a legitimate tantrum. Yeah, he WANTED me to stay in the room so that he could distract himself from falling asleep and laugh at me when I got frustrated, but he certainly didn't NEED it. He NEEDED to go to sleep (you know, b/c he's 2yo and can't be up past 10 or 11pm each and every night when he has to get up at 7am to be to daycare by 8am), and the only way for it to happen was for me to remove the distracting force (aka, Me).

I hate it when people on this board try to make it sound like every child crying at bedtime is being left to CIO regardless of age, developmental stage or anything else. TODDLERS are NOT babies. They have NEEDS and then they have WANTS - they don't get everything, and sometimes things have to change so mama doesn't go insane.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I hate it when people on this board try to make it sound like every child crying at bedtime is being left to CIO regardless of age, developmental stage or anything else. TODDLERS are NOT babies. They have NEEDS and then they have WANTS - they don't get everything, and sometimes things have to change so mama doesn't go insane.


Exactly. I don't understand how families/marriages function with people up nursing 2, 3 y/o and older children multiple times a night because otherwise the child has a fit. Or if they don't nurse them every hour during the day. Or if they don't let them twiddle (for some reason it seems nursing related a LOT of the time). Why is there such a fear of toddlers having a fit? Is it that people really believe in 'on demand' as long as there is demand? I really would like to understand b/c I know my advice probably sounds dismissive a lot of the time.

If I gave into every fit my kids have I shudder to imagine the state of my house and marriage!


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## babydanielsmom (Jan 18, 2008)




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## mkksmom (Mar 24, 2008)

I remember that phase with my older dd. I think CIO vs. tantrum and just need to let them work it out depends on the child. For my older dd, I waited until I knew she knew how to fall asleep on her own. I prepped her for that by "forgetting" to brush my teeth and other "I'll be right back" kind of things. I would just come back later and later. Eventually, she'd fall asleep while I was gone. Then I waited less and less time before leaving. She was and still is to an extent a high-needs kind of kid. Very intelligent. Has a hard time winding down. Now at 6, she's getting much better at it, but she has to be absolutely exhausted to fall asleep with me in the room..

But yeah- after I knew she could fall asleep on her own (around 3), she'd still have nights that were a battle. Sometimes I let her throw a fit up there all by herself. Sometimes I'd lay with her. Sometimes I'd tell her that I would lay with her if she would lay there with her eyes closed, hold still and not talk. She got 3 reminders and then I'd leave and explain that my presence was keeping her up. She'd throw a fit and then go to sleep. Sometimes she's be throwing a fit and just that time to blow off some steam was enough that when I went back to check on her, she would calm down and go to sleep.


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## Novus (Mar 16, 2010)

We had similar issues with DS, who is 22 mos, about a month ago. I would sit with him for 1-1.5 hours while he rolled and moved his legs and rearranged his blanket and just wouldn't. settle. down. So we decided that my presence was no longer helpful for him in the going to sleep process. However, DS goes from calm to hysterical screaming in about 3 seconds, so leaving him to cry wasn't an option for us.

What we did instead: we went through the bedtime routine--bath, pjs, 2 books, and then I tucked him in, turned off the light, and left the room. He's in a toddler bed & can open the door, so he came running out. I put him back in, said good-night and left. He came back out. Repeat x 127 times--seriously, he came out 127 times that first night. Each time, we put him back calmly, kissed him good night & left. Oh, and DH & I traded off as each of us got frustrated after about 50 times. That first night, it took us about 2 hours, BUT although he fussed for about 10 seconds before falling asleep, he never really cried, and it was the first time he'd ever fallen asleep by himself.

The second night took about 80 times...the third night was about 50, etc. We're now down to about 12 times and that's only because I put him back the first 10 times and he sees that as a game. As soon as DH takes over, he comes out once or twice and then falls asleep. I've just started to view the first 10 times as part of the bedtime routine--his last opportunity to let off some energy before settling for bed. This method does require a lot of patience during the first week, but for us, the payoff has been huge. Plus, it lets DH help with bedtime without having to sit in there for an hour and a half, which he was understandably reluctant to do.


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## landgyrl (Dec 12, 2009)

Thanks for all your replies. It makes me feel human again to have others relate to what I am experiencing. I have always put my son's sleep first (protect naps, consistent bedtime, consistent bedtime routine, etc.) to what seems like no avail 26 months later. I've lain with him for up to 1.5 hours when we are away from home until he falls asleep, but when we are home, that just doesn't slide well. It doesn't away either because I can't visit with friends or family since he won't go down with his dad. We live three days driving away from my friends and family so these are not weekly occurances. And as others have alluded to, my marriage is not exactly peachy (no future children for us on the horizon, which I am sad about) nor is my house in order when DS is going through these phases. And by house, I mean, my attempt to keep us healthy with good food plummets, my desire and ability to spend time with my son during the day drops, and my inability to comprehend why this all lies on me crashes because I don't have time to catch my breath at night after he is in bed. Sleep is our big challenge, yes, but the rest is just as important to me, and watching my son talk to his stuffed animals and thrash around in his bed is certainly not contributing to his or my wellbeing.

The reason I posted cio vs. monster mama is that well, I'm not sure where that ugly voice came from when I lost it the other day, but it seemed like cio might have been less scarry to me. Luckily my DS just laughs when it comes out, but I'm not laughing...

I'm not sure that I understand how melatonin is healthy in the long run?

BTW, my son NEEDS to sleep too. He has nightmares when he is overtired and this is night 3 with them as early as two hours after he is asleep. He has started to wet in the morning too...indicating when he gets up he is still tired. Over a week now of no naps...I'm working on getting him down at night asap before I go back to 2x a day of the struggle.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Melatonin is a hormone produced in our brains, although the type you buy OTC is synthesized from animal sources, so it's not suitable for vegans of course.

It can be used short-term, certainly. People use it when traveling across time zones. It doesn't have to be a forever deal.

However, in the case of my kiddos, it is a lifesaver and whatever risks there may be are minimal compared to the dangers of chronic insomnia. The sleep doctor has given us permission to take up to 6mg/day but I never give them more than 1mg. My older son, who is narcoleptic, takes a pretty heavy duty med each morning to help stave off sleepiness. Next to that, a synthetic hormone doesn't seem so bad at all.

But again, those who do not have pathologically disordered sleep can just use it for a week or two to reset their body clock.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> Sleep is our big challenge, yes, but the rest is just as important to me, and watching my son talk to his stuffed animals and thrash around in his bed is certainly not contributing to his or my wellbeing.
> 
> The reason I posted cio vs. monster mama is that well, I'm not sure where that ugly voice came from when I lost it the other day, but it seemed like cio might have been less scarry to me. Luckily my DS just laughs when it comes out, but I'm not laughing...


What's wrong with him talking to his animals and thrashing around the bed?

I don't think you even can CIO with a 26 month old. DD is about that age. But him running out laughing when you put him to bed is unacceptable behaviour. He needs to be marched back in there firmly. Door closed again. Reminded that it's bedtime and he is not to leave.

And go visit your family! Go for a weekend. Let them work it out. Seriously. I sense that you have lost perspective in all of this. BTDT and it's a rotten place to be


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Can you stand to read one more book? You probably won't have to read all of it - I didn't, I put the basics in place and the rest took care of itself (for instance, I have no clue what the book says to do about night wakings, which were HUGE for us...she just stopped having them and if she did, I could just go in and tell her to go back to sleep, or she could get in bed with us if she could be still and go to sleep)! Sleepless in America saved us when my daughter was slightly older than your son (but still under three). I think if you search under my old posts, you will probably find me singing it's praises. It helped us SO much. I thought we had nap and bedtime routines, but we really didn't. We had to get really protective of sleep and naps (and pretty much stay home) for about two weeks but once she figured out how to lie down and go to sleep, we could loosen up a lot. Full disclosure: we still rocked her to sleep for about six months but she would literally lie in my arms, say goodnight, and she was OUT. I liked doing it so we didn't stop till she got too heavy for me to carry down the hall (as it turns out, 55 pounds is my limit, I was also having to crab walk sideways because her legs were so long, her head and feet were hitting the walls...oops), and then I started lying down with her, singing her little songs, and saying goodnight.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


YES! Go see your family. TAKE A BREAK. You deserve one mama!!! I don't know what I would do if my ds's dad didn't use all the visitation he could possibly get - its AMAZING and gives me time to really miss my ds and get a break and some nights of not putting him to sleep. Your ds will be fine, and will have a great time with his dad. Take care of YOU for a weekend, or let your family do it (my parents pamper me when they visit, so I hope yours do to!), miss your ds, and come home refreshed and ready to start bedtimes over again.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Going to post here as it's the same thing!!

DD can put herself to sleep... that isn't the issue. She was going to sleep very nice for awhile, and for about the last 2 months or so EVERYNIGHT it's a HUGE struggle. Routine is the same. I'm consistent. Everytime she comes out of her room and downstairs, I take her right back up. Last night it took over 2 hours of taking her back to bed for her finally to stay and go to sleep. There is no crying, no screaming, she simply keeps getting up and coming back downstairs.

It's driving me insane, because then this also interrupts me trying to get DS to sleep, which used to be wicked easy until the recent time change now he wasnts to party til 10:30/11 at night, which is KILLING me as I get up at 4:30 for work!!! *cries* I'm losing it.

After 2 months of consistent put back to sleep.. why isn't DD getting it??!

((And yes, if you are able to get breaks take them! I wish I got more than I do. Work is NOT a break))


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## landgyrl (Dec 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with it at all, I just don't think it's sane for me to sit there and watch him (as he wants, he won't do it on his own) until he decides to calm down and finally give in to sleep. It's his way to resist sleeping.

I can't visit my family for a week-end, they are 22 hours away. I meant that when I am visiting family, I still don't get a break. The sleeping challenges get worse when we are away. As for going away on my own - that would be great, but not an option at the moment.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> *Can you stand to read one more book? * You probably won't have to read all of it - I didn't, I put the basics in place and the rest took care of itself (for instance, I have no clue what the book says to do about night wakings, which were HUGE for us...she just stopped having them and if she did, I could just go in and tell her to go back to sleep, or she could get in bed with us if she could be still and go to sleep)! *Sleepless in America* saved us when my daughter was slightly older than your son (but still under three). I think if you search under my old posts, you will probably find me singing it's praises. It helped us SO much. I thought we had nap and bedtime routines, but we really didn't. We had to get really protective of sleep and naps (and pretty much stay home) for about two weeks but once she figured out how to lie down and go to sleep, we could loosen up a lot. Full disclosure: we still rocked her to sleep for about six months but she would literally lie in my arms, say goodnight, and she was OUT. I liked doing it so we didn't stop till she got too heavy for me to carry down the hall (as it turns out, 55 pounds is my limit, I was also having to crab walk sideways because her legs were so long, her head and feet were hitting the walls...oops), and then I started lying down with her, singing her little songs, and saying goodnight.


Thanks, I am reading that very book at the moment. I have not done the charting yet but will.


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## Minalas (Feb 24, 2011)

Big hugs! You need some.
I don't know what your outdoors circumstances are like. But it might work to get him down for a nap by strapping him in a stroller and walking with him for an hour or more. For DD that was frequently the only way I could get her to nap.
At night I usually lay down with DD and DS until they are out, and that takes frequently up to an hour. Sometimes I wish I could just give them a kiss and close the door behind them. But I can't stand the crying...
But if I'm at the brink of getting physically agressive with my children, I prefer to walk away for a while and let them cry, rather than actually following up on my impulses. I guess, we only can be so sweet as our nerves endure and a bit of crying once in a while won't harm them that much.


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## tavamom (Mar 11, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> These days, I'm wondering if CIO or a yelling mother is worse. My son has been resisting naps for over a week, and taking between one to one and one half hours to fall asleep at night. I've been trying to bump up bedtime to try to get him caught up on needed sleep, but with the time change and bright evenings, this has not made things any easier. My son is not one who will sleep when he needs to. Trust me, he was falling asleep while eating dinner at 5pm tonight. When he skips his nap, or is overtired in general, he will also forget to potty (which he has been doing consistently without much effort on my part since he was about 19 months). He wet himself in his highchair while eating half asleep tonight and then denied it.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I'm a mess, as the constant resistance, twice a day, is wearing on me. DH does not put him to sleep. DS will wail for me if he tries to; probably because DH never made an effort to help until recently. DH has tried a handful of times to put him down for nap then given up. DH has also said if I left him alone to put DS down, he'd figure it out, in other words he would probably let him cry. I've yelled, I've threatened, I've said no this no that if he doesn't sleep. This is not the way I want to parent, but I'm crying while trying to put him down as he is smirking and constantly moving and playing while I'm singing or rocking or rubbing his back. I've tried yoga videos, i've tried baths, i've tried reading longer, i don't know what else to try. i don't want to yell anymore. i don't want to resent my DH anymore. i don't want to feel so defeated anymore and that i don't deserve to be a mother.


My DS1 was that age when he started resisting naps. I took it as a sign that he was really moving away from them, not that I needed to enforce them. And mind you, my son was taking 3-4 hour naps (he would literally sleep for 3 or 4 hours every day), so it was odd when he seemed to be stopping his naps. I felt like he "needed" them if he was sleeping so long, but really he was ready to transition. Yes, it meant grumpy kid falling asleep mid-evening for a week or so, but really he was ready to stop taking regular naps. I wished so badly that he would take his naps again, but he kept resisting. We tried "quiet time" at his naptime, I tried to take a "nap" to encourage him to do it too, we would lie down together and try to sleep, but he would just toss and turn (even when I could on rare occasion get him to be quiet). We tried meditation at naptime. Really, I think it helped to create a quiet time during the day, to give us both a rest, but he still stopped napping at 28 months.

Yelling, threatening, repeatedly saying no, etc really isn't going to help things. He probably needs a shorter bedtime routine instead of a longer one and a firm set of parents who follow the new "bedtime rules." If you're getting so frustrated and he's seeing it as a game, it's a game and he's winning. Like others have said, your presence and "help" is actually making him stay up longer. He sees it as playtime with mommy. Maybe you could have a nighttime activity with just him and you, that isn't necessarily the same thing every night except that you're doing something together. It could be right before going into the bedtime routine or it could be separated by some other activity (you go do the dishes or something that doesn't involve him) while he picks his bedtime books, gets his PJ's, or something else that reminds him it's almost time for bed.

I like to go at things like this trying to figure out what it is the child really needs. Does he need more sleep? Does he need more structure or rules? Does he need more playtime with mommy? Why is he acting the way he is? Then I look at what I need. If I were you, I would need a shorter bedtime routine and a group of people (me, DS, DH, anyone else involved) who gladly follows it without any of us feeling tortured. One thing I do, that I don't remember anyone else mentioning, is that I tell them my own needs and why I can't come back in too often. I tell them I'm tired, I tell them when I've gotten in my bed that I can't get up again. I tell them that I have to do such-and-such thing now because I want to go to bed soon and I need to do it before I go to bed. Reminding them that YOU want to go to bed soon (even if you don't do so for a few hours) lets them know that you're really not doing anything extremely fun and exciting after they go to sleep.

One of my favorite stories such as this involved a little girl who would literally stay up for hours and hours, into the wee hours of the morning every night despite being exhausted every day from doing so. When her parents finally asked her why she was staying up, they told her that she wanted to see what they did after she went to sleep. They told her that THEY went to sleep after she went to sleep. She was surprised, but was convinced that staying up wasn't worth it and she gladly went to bed at bedtime after that. She would wish everyone else good night, for she felt that she wasn't missing anything and she was glad to be going to bed when others were, helping them to have a good night's sleep.

When my kids were going through these types of things, I ended up putting them to bed when I was willing to go to bed, which was around 9. Sure, I could have stayed up longer, but when the kids don't think they're missing anything, it helps them go to sleep. When they get used to going to sleep with the routine, you can start doing the "oh I forgot to..." bit until you're able to stay up later and they go to sleep by themselves. First set a routine that you can handle, that meets all of your real needs, and once that is in place, you can start transitioning in things that will help little by little.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

So he just wants an audience? That's your cue to leave, IMO (and IME). If (when) he freaks out be reassuring. You'll be back in 5 minutes. And then leave for 5 minutes. And come back like you said you would. Show him that you know he'll be fine. He'll take his cues from you! If you react to his tantrum you're sending the wrong messages, I think. That you don't believe he's capable of spending 5 minutes by himself AND that all it takes to get his way is a tantrum.

At his age there is nothing wrong with him being in his bed alone for 5 minutes. He doesn't have to like it at the start but he has to do it. Just like you don't like sitting there for ages, you did it anyway. Well now things are changing and that's a great thing. Be positive!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> So he just wants an audience? That's your cue to leave, IMO (and IME). If (when) he freaks out be reassuring. You'll be back in 5 minutes. And then leave for 5 minutes. And come back like you said you would. Show him that you know he'll be fine. He'll take his cues from you! If you react to his tantrum you're sending the wrong messages, I think. That you don't believe he's capable of spending 5 minutes by himself AND that all it takes to get his way is a tantrum.
> 
> At his age there is nothing wrong with him being in his bed alone for 5 minutes. He doesn't have to like it at the start but he has to do it. Just like you don't like sitting there for ages, you did it anyway. Well now things are changing and that's a great thing. Be positive!










I've also found it very helpful to turn off the lights that are outside ds's room so that there is very little light (we're in NYC so there is a city glow even though the shades are closed). It seems to help him fall asleep.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Not wanting go to sleep at naptime and then up later at bedtime really sounds like your DC is ready to drop a nap. Sure he'll be grumpy in the evening during the transition period, but he'll go to sleep easily at night.

And to answer your title question, being a monster (grumpy) mom doesn't cause permanent neurological damage and adult stress related diseases like CIO does. So I'd have to pick be a monster mom temporarily. Here's a link http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_folden_palmer2.html . Yelling just teaches your DS that yelling is appropriate behavior. You can probably counteract that if you stop yelling once his sleep patterns settle down again.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tavamom*
> 
> My DS1 was that age when he started resisting naps. I took it as a sign that he was really moving away from them, not that I needed to enforce them. And mind you, my son was taking 3-4 hour naps (he would literally sleep for 3 or 4 hours every day), so it was odd when he seemed to be stopping his naps. I felt like he "needed" them if he was sleeping so long, but really he was ready to transition. Yes, it meant grumpy kid falling asleep mid-evening for a week or so, but really he was ready to stop taking regular naps. I wished so badly that he would take his naps again, but he kept resisting. We tried "quiet time" at his naptime, I tried to take a "nap" to encourage him to do it too, we would lie down together and try to sleep, but he would just toss and turn (even when I could on rare occasion get him to be quiet). We tried meditation at naptime. Really, I think it helped to create a quiet time during the day, to give us both a rest, but he still stopped napping at 28 months.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

i agree he is probably ready to drop his nap. DS1 dropped his around age 2 and began going to bed much earlier, and much easier. and you dont have to "cio" to teach a toddler to fall asleep.. the pp's have good suggestions


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## lotsofcloth (Feb 9, 2011)

My two older kids (both boys) also quit napping by two. With the oldest I felt just like you're describing -- I was so tired, and so angry, and so confused, and felt like half my day was spent trying to get this child to sleep. If he napped - which could take 2 hours to get him to nap - he'd be up very, very late. I finally cut out his nap, and all of a sudden bedtime got easier. It still wasn't easy, but it was better. BUT, that involved moving bedtime much earlier to make up the difference. For him, that meant 7pm -- so in bed by 6 with a goal of falling asleep by 7. As crazy early as that sounds, I was at the point where sleep was what mattered.

My second son showed signs of dropping his nap around 21 months, but that time round I recognized the signs and just went with it. Likewise, we moved his bedtime back to 6:30 and bedtimes went from hours long battles to quick and really pretty peaceful.

I'll add that my first is really not a sleeper. While he gets really grumpy if he doesn't get enough sleep, he doesn't need as much as his peers (he's almost 10 now) and he still doesn't recognize when he's tired. It also takes him ages to settle down to a state where he can rest. So for 4 hours before I want him to fall asleep, we keep things calm and quiet. As a toddler and preschooler, that meant parks & activities and playdates were morning only. By dinnertime, and for the hour before, we were on to quiet activities. Now, he needs an hour of downtime after dinner, an hour of reading, and he still lays in bed for an hour before he falls asleep. It's no longer stressful -- I've learned to build it into our day.

My youngest - in preschool now - climbs into bed when she's tired and gets her own pj's on, and tells us good night. It's not you, mama. They really are wired differently.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

OP - what is your bedtime right now? (for your DS).

I am like the PP's that when we cut the nap bedtime became as early as 6. Definitely by 7.


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## landgyrl (Dec 12, 2009)

DS's bedtime is 6 but he usually isn't asleep until after 7pm, the earlier, the better. We start eating dinner at 445, but sometimes he eats for an hour, so it pushes things back.

I've tried to drop the nap, and as previously mentioned, he starts to wet, get cranky (it hit at 11am on Friday, for example) and become violent (kicking, hitting, etc.). He's like me, his body can go forever without enough sleep, but he becomes sensitive and oh-so-grouchy.

Update: I turned the converted crib around so he couldn't get out on Friday and he talked himself/ stuffed animals to sleep after a brief period of whining and anger. DH has taken over nighttimes for the past two nights (alas!) as well as naps this week-end. Hopefully things will fall into place when I get back to it tomorrow. As with previous experience of missing naps and then having naps, it is much easier to get him to sleep when he is well rested. He also has less nightmares. No wetting and no nightmares since Friday.


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## BirdieC (Nov 29, 2010)

I've been both the monster mama and tried CIO. Both are devastating. There is no easy solution is my conclusion. I have read every baby sleep book out there.

Good night, Sleep tight has some very good bits, but the sleep lady also makes me want to punch her in the face a couple times. Her sleep lady shuffle, though, is a good system that I know works. Especially with older kids, like 2 year olds. You just have to be very consistent every single day for 2 weeks or more to get the results. I can give you more details on sleep shuffle if you'd like. Some people consider it a softer version of CIO. But even Dr. Sears says that if you resent it, change it. I don't believe in CIO (even though I let my DD cry for an hour when I was in midst of mental breakdown) and I don't think it works. But it doesn't mean there won't be tears involved at bedtime, especially when they are tired and have difficulty adjusting to new expectations.

Also, Sleepless in America is a good book. It talks about why naps are important and how to achieve them, and some other pointers about why it might be hard getting kids to sleep. What you might take away from this book: don't drop the nap!!

Lastly, you are not alone. As the other posts suggest, and my own experience, bedtime can be difficult especially when you are so closely attached to your children.

I hope you find some relief soon!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> DS's bedtime is 6 but he usually isn't asleep until after 7pm, the earlier, the better. We start eating dinner at 445, but sometimes he eats for an hour, so it pushes things back.
> 
> ...


why 'alas' that your DH took over bedtimes? Sounds to me like things have turned a corner, no?


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *landgyrl*
> 
> DS's bedtime is 6 but he usually isn't asleep until after 7pm, the earlier, the better. We start eating dinner at 445, but sometimes he eats for an hour, so it pushes things back.
> 
> ...


Great update. So glad that your dh took over. It sounds like the sleep game was something that your son was playing with you...much like my son does with my husband and food.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi! First, a hug:







The myriad sleep issues of the preschool set is just... there are no words. That anyone makes it to age five without losing it at their kids is amazing.

I have one rule in my family and it's not negotiable, and kept me on track during the tough times. It is: no one in my family cries alone; I stay and I listen and I always offer affection to an emotional child or adult, even if they're angry/tantruming.

As simple as that sounds, that rule gave me a solution to most issues that came up with my marriage *and* kids, including the sleep issues - which obviously meant that CIO was not an option for me, at any age. My first child is now 9 and I still wouldn't walk away from her if she was upset.

Both my kids went through that awful stage of one nap was too much, but no nap was too little. If my son napped, bedtime was a drawn out, frustrating nightmare. Without the nap, he was cranky, demanding and having tantrums by midday. By September last year, I cut the nap out altogether, he was 2yrs 5mths, and it was about 6 months overdue, in hindsight. I decided to deal with the day meltdowns instead of sapping of my time and energy each night trying to get an un-tired, fidgety, playful boy to sleep. It had taken me 1 to 2 hours to get him to sleep, no matter what I did, or how wonderful the routine or how early or how late bedtime was... I tried everything, in the end I realised the nap had to go.

Then I had to deal with his emotions during the day, and to help this I welcomed the wise words of a child psychologist friend who specialises in attachment parenting. She said, "No one gets emotional because they are tired. Fatigue does not *cause* emotions, it simply weakens the defenses enough that emotions can no longer be suppressed." She explained how those times were wonderful opportunities for parents to help their child heal old (and new) traumas and stresses.

This also fit with how my son was behaving, or what pop culture calls "over-tired signs". His emotions built up from frustrations or whatever until he needed to let them out. Then he'd do things that would eventually lead to him falling apart. Or he'd demand things until he found one I couldn't deliver then he'd turn that into his releasing excuse.

I'd hold him while he cried. If it was a tantrum, I'd give him my full attention like I do my daughter and husband when they're expressing, and offer to hold him if he was rejecting affection until he came to me and fell apart in tears on my shoulder. After a supported, validated emotional expression, it was like a switch... the crap was emptied, and now my real boy who was underneath all that was able to shine. For several hours, or even the rest of the day, he would be sweet, self-occupying, attentive and happy. It was like a freakin' miracle.

Sometimes a meltdown is poorly timed, and I try to suppress it as only a mother knows how. But I knew it was just on hold, so when I got home I'd keep a look out for signs and be ready to dedicate up to 20 minutes hugging or calmly listening to a crying child. Time investment well worthwhile. A child without stored up emotions sleeps easily and deeply, whereever they are, no fussy routine or dark or quiet required.

If my son gets aggressive with his sister, moody, or in any way starts THAT spiral (we all know the spiral I'm talking about), then I say, "Do you need to get some feelings out?" and he will often immediately ask for something he knows we don't have and then bam, fall apart. The causes for his upset would be gone, but the need to release them remained.

I felt gentle and feel I've still lived up to my philosophy, yet I was not living in fear of my children's emotions.

The current situation with my 3 yo son (his third b'day in a week) is that if he is relaxed yet tired, he'll sleep, whereever we are. If he needs to release, he'll get irritable and clingy and come looking for me if I'm inside or whatever and whine and find ways to tantrum. It is at this point that it is up to me to find some selfless compassion and be there for him - and if I'm elbow deep in a project, that isn't easy. After the release, he'll occasionally fall asleep on me, but mostly he just goes about his day because he only naps about once a month. Then at about 5.30 the four of us crowd on the couch and watch Brady Bunch and he's usually out by 6pm with his head on my lap. If he's still awake at 6.15, I take him to the bedroom and lay with him while he falls asleep... 10 minutes tops.

So I really recommend not pushing the nap or even setting one up, and just seeing where the fatigue takes him. If he is "misbehaving" or pushing boundaries, see if there is a phrase you can use to trigger the tears or rage (tantrum), setting the stage of safety, that he is safe to express. I use "do you need to get feelings out?" but sometimes what it takes is following his lead to see what he's doing to make himself cry or rage or if he keeps hurting himself - some kids only feel safe to cry when they're hurt because that's the only time someone meets their emotions with empathy, and needless to say, those kids are known as "accident prone".

I watch sad movies, I love a good sob and feel great for weeks afterwards.

A note of warning... this becomes second nature and just part of the routine of being around emotionally sane people who express themselves, adults or children... but the first few times can be overwhelming. Be prepared if you decide to stay-listen to emotions, as they can run deep and can trigger your own unheard pain, causing bad reactions. The other thing is, if you try this... stay-listen. It is not healing, and could be counterproductive to healing, to leave them to cry or rage alone... tender ages need a validating ear, and preferably some words to their feelings (you sound angry... you seem very sad... it can be frustrating when we want something we can't have... etc).

Hope there's something in there for you. Good luck. Family sure is one helluva ride.


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## blackannis (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm a bit puzzled at all of the talk here that seems to be looking at the bedtime parenting as the either-or of "good mama staying with child" or CIO . . . it sounds like you and your son have a middle ground, much as my son and I do. My DS is 18 months old, and likes to play games with Mommy as well--he has for quite a while, actually, and we've had to institute a caregiver switch-off for whenever Mommy's getting angry and frustrated. Frankly, I'm not a good mother when I get frustrated. It makes me angry with my son, angry with myself, and I can't be patient and loving. So, when I get to that point, DH takes over and gives me a break. We've also, over the past six months, started drawing a very firm line and reacting differently to DS angry vs. DS upset. When he's angry and throwing a temper tantrum, we just let it run its course. We don't respond to it (except to give a hug if he seems to want it and if wanting a hug at a bad time wasn't what set it off!), don't try to stop it, and above all, don't give in to it. Temper tantrums still happen with relative frequency (saying "no" to anything is the simplest way to get them going!







), but they tend to be fairly short in duration and very easily ended with re-direction. When DS is actually upset, he gets held and loved. We use this distinction at bedtime too, and it's helping to cut back on the unwanted games. Most important for me, though, has been DH's willingness to take over when DS starts playing games that get me frustrated. When you get frustrated and start feeling like "monster mommy," let your husband take over completely for a while so you can take a sanity breather. Some of us just need that--we don't have endless reserves of patience, and we need a mental break to refill our reserve of patience.

Anyways, it sounds to me like you may have something going on that's similar to what I've been dealing with with my son, and honestly, the only way to reshape it into healthy habits is to get your partner to help. Get a tall enough gate to put over the door that your son can't leave the room, and switch off turns soothing him with your husband. The gate is necessary IMO because the rule that's worked for us at bedtime is that above all, when the bedtime routine starts, DS does not leave the room where he sleeps, and he preferably only gets to come out of his bed if he's being held/snuggled. We don't let his feet hit the floor--just crib-arms-crib-arms. And we switch off; I start, since DS nurses before bed, put DS in his bed when he's done nursing, and leave the room. When he decides he's unhappy about being left alone, DH goes in and hugs him for a few minutes, then puts him down, pats his back to get him settled, and leaves the room. If he gets up again, I go in, then the next time DH, wash-rinse-repeat. Since we've been doing this (about two months now), the number of times we've gone back in has been steadily decreasing, and he's started sleeping for longer stretches. It's kinda cool. It does, however, involve letting him fuss a bit, especially if he's trying to break the rules and get down from the crib or our arms. In my view, however, that is not in any way CIO, and anyone who tries to tell me it is needs to butt out of my family dynamic.


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## kkfum (Aug 14, 2005)

Calm---thank you so much for your post. I am struggling with DD2's sleep--as I did with DD1's--and your comments about children needing a safe opportunity to vent their feelings and frustrations was just the reminder I need for both my daughters, as well as for myself.


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