# Consequence for 10yo Stepson



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Ok, so what would you suggest. My Step son is 10. When he was here last we went to the library and I let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us. The night before he left he asked me if he could take them (he was going to his nana's house the next week) and I said no. I explained that I couldnt let him take them out of town because they have to be returned etc... I offered him some of my books (harry potter) to take.

The next am I saw him with them and reminded them that they have to stay. And, yup, you guessed it when I took the books back they were missing. Call up nana and yep, he had them. He came over today and I asked him if he brought the books back. Nope. He said Nana is supposed to be mailing them. Not true, I just got off the phone with Nana. I told him that I would talk to his dad about it when they got home because I didnt want to spoil their fishing trip but that he knows that I asked him to leave the books here. What gets me is he seems totally unconcerned, he lied, took what didnt belogn to him, lost it, and doesnt seem to care. He even came back later and said "I thought my dad said I could take them". Which is likely not true because his dad would i never let him take library books on a trip. So i doubt he asked or if he did he purposely misled his dad. In either case I had already been very clear about his not taking them.

This is one of a pattern of sneaky behaivior from him. I am not really angry but I want to make clear to him that we dont do things this way here.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Its hard to judge a pattern of behavior based on one incident. My inclination based on what you have said, is that for some reason having those books were _really_ important to him. I would try to get to the bottom of why it was so important, and process with him a better way to handle it next time. The _reason_ a kid does something like this is so important, and often provides you with the best way to approach solving the problem.

That said -- I think he should pay the fine, or pay to replace the books, and I wouldn't let him use my library card again.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My family is somewhat fanatical about reading. It wouldn't be a question about whether it was okay to take the book you were reading with you when you went to your grandparents. I'm curious about his needing to ask for your permission to do this. Was it checked out on your card?

Does he have his own library card? If not, it seems like the next time he's with you, you want to ask him to get his own card. That way, you won't be in the position of having to "let" him get some reading material. He'll just get some like the rest of the family.

Since he left the books at his grandparents, I'd suggest to him that he call his grandparents and ask them to mail them back so they can be returned to the library.

I wonder if acknowledging his growing independence might stop some of the sneakiness. If he doesn't have to ask permission to have reading material, he wouldn't need to sneak it with him, right?


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

He needs to pay for the missing books, and I agree some consequence needs to be set for lying. It isn't always about 'finding the reason'. A 10 year old is old enough to understand that lying is inherently wrong and causes a person to be distrusted.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Does he have his own library card? If not, it seems like the next time he's with you, you want to ask him to get his own card. That way, you won't be in the position of having to "let" him get some reading material. He'll just get some like the rest of the family.


I wouldn't let him get his own card, because he needs his parents to be responsible for the card and the books. Not too many 10 year olds have that much money. Those fines can be really steep.

Quote:

Since he left the books at his grandparents, I'd suggest to him that he call his grandparents and ask them to mail them back so they can be returned to the library.
This along with making him pay the fines is what I would do.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'll be able to formulate an opinion on lying and sneaking when I understand why a ten year old is asking his stepmother for permission to check out books and take them to his next destination to read them.

I can't imagine a 10 year old not having their own library card. My 6 year old has one.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

His reason, Im sure, was that he wanted to keep reading them. Its a series that he likes and they were books he hadnt read before.

I didnt let him take them specifically because of what did happen. He lost them. It was too much responsibility to think he could keep track of them when taking them home, to his Nana's, back home, then back here. Because of a careless attitude at his biomoms when it comes to "things" we keep things we provide here. For ex. Biomom has replaced gameboy 5x in one year. We do not have funds for that kind of thing.

Nana has not seen books since he left. I will ask biomom is she has seen but dont expect much.

Its not the losing of them. If I had given permission to take them and he lost them then I would say, oops, you can help pay for the books and forget it. It was the deception that I dislike. He has a habit of taking what he wants, despite being told not to, and then lying or trying to say DH said, or nana said, or whatever.... Ex. He borrowed gameboy from my nephew for the day. (they dont see each other very often) when I took him home that afternoon he asked if he could keep it longer. I asked him, well, what did XX say? "He said it was fine". That sounded odd since nephew has only one gameboy and couldnt be sure when he would see DSS next. I said, well let me call him and ask. "oh, never mind, I dont want to". I went ahead and called, was told "no way, i said he could use it today, I come over and get it later". I equate that to stealing, told biomom about it and was told "oh, well, see his is broken and Im sure he just wanted to play longer". And your point is?? that makes it ok to steal?


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

chfriend said:


> I'll be able to formulate an opinion on lying and sneaking when I understand why a ten year old is asking his stepmother for permission to check out books and take them to his next destination to read them."QUOTE]
> 
> My 3 yr old has a library card, and I did get DSS his own card on that last trip. But I am the signee on the card, responsible for paying. He is not under our supervision most of the time. When he is here he can check out as many books as he wants.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

What would have happened if you had said, "It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

His reason doesn't make it okay. His reason gives you the understanding necessary to coach him on _what he could have done instead._ So -- if the reason was that he was still reading them and enjoying them, you could suggest that next time he renew them and keep them at home until he returns, or whatever.

Understanding the reason, from his point of view, also makes it easier to be connected to him and have a relationship with him. Doesn't mean there are not problems to solve and things to deal with. Does mean that you are able to walk in his shoes, see things from his perspective, and treat him with empathy and understanding.

So in approach him, I would absolutely start by acknowleging his POV. _"I understand you wanted to keep reading those books. I understand that you like those books a lot, and I'm so glad to see you enjoy reading so much. However, there is now a problem between you and me, because you were not honest with me. I need to know how you are going to deal with that problem. And there is also a problem of overdue books, and we need to figure out how you will solve that problem as well."_


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

He chose 2 books, if he had chosen 10 I would've said I let him check out 10. As far as the "let" yes, if he had wanted to check out 50, I woul've said that's too many. So to be technical, he can check out as many as he wants within reason.

"It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

He does not think of this as "home" so I dont call it home. I think it's offensive to try to MAKE him think of this as home or create equal feelings of devotion to his dad and this house when we've only been part of his life for 2 years. DSS is very clear about where he calls home and I respect that.

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?

Getting the follow thru on things like this is difficult with biomom, she has a lot on her mind and keeping track of his things is just not a priority. We prefer to not set up circumstances that will lead to conflict.


----------



## SkiMama36 (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

What would have happened if you had said, "It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?

Oh, give me a break.







: The child lied. Period. She is trying to figure out (with the dad) an appropriate consquence for LYING. Just because the child *really* wants an item, whether to borrow or what have you, does not give them free license to lie to a parent figure (and yes, we as step-parents are parental figures).

While you are trying to figure the "whys" of lying, make sure there are boundaries set as to the "when it happens". While you can make sure you discuss why the child felt the need to lie to you, make sure they understand that lying is not acceptable behavior regardless of who's house it happened at.

My experienced 2 cents worth.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

The consequence of lying (and being caught) is that people are mistrustful after that. Higher levels of supervision are likely to ensue.

I wouldn't argue that lying is inherently wrong or that lying to an authority figure is more hurtful than lying to anyone else. I wouldn't moralize it at all. I _would_ point out the hurt and distance it creates in situations like this. I _would_ point out that it is often counterproductive and often spirals out of control.

And I still assert that the reason is important. When I screw up, I want the people I hurt to understand my rational (even if I was wrong.) It helps the relationship to maintain that level of understanding.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I just want to comment on the *lying* aspect of it. Don't we confuse our kids all the time about lying and the truth? Don't tell Grandmom you didn't like her casserole, it isn't nice ---- encouraging lying... shhhhhhhh it is so RUDE to comment that someone is fat, or short, or whatever...even if they are .... it isn't nice... encouraging lying... oh santa is real... wait, no he isn't (when they get to a certain age) that was just something we told you so we could have a *magical* christmas... sorry you can't have a snack "the kitchen is closed" and other such lies that many parents feel completely and totally justified in telling their kids their whole lives with a bunch of excuses as to why it is okay...

I am not saying the OP has done this with her ss, just saying it is totally understandable why some children would feel totally fine with telling a lie to meet their needs or wants...

I don't think a child who lies should be labeled *sneaky* and all this -- it is undesirable of course, and something that should be addressed in a calm, reasonable manner, and I agree with the pp that mentioned telling him how lying affected *you* not put a label on whether it is inherently "good" or "bad" ---

Also, if ss has only been in your lives for two years, I imagine seeing as he is 10, there is a whole big old back story to that and though I am not placing any blame, big transitions and such should be taken into consideration.

As for the library incident, I would have avoided the whole thing and let the kid take the books. I would have given grandparents a head's up, would have offered to call the boy before he was set to leave to remind him, would have talked about maybe a central place to leave the books while he was at grandmom's (as in, let's agree you leave them on Grandmom's dining room table when you aren't reading them so you'll remember them or whatever) and if he *still* lost them after all that, I would probably brainstorm a way he could help pay the fees, and/or how he can remember them better next time.

The kid isn't out stealing cars and knockin' over 7-11s.... he forgot some books -- yes, the dishonesty causes a bit of concern and could be a great jumping board to strengthening your relationship depending on how it is handled, but I don't think it's all over because the kid took a library book to his grandmom's house.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I wonder if it would help to shift focus away from "How to teach him a lesson about lying," to _"How to teach him that it is safe and effective to be honest with us._"

The whole idea of imposing a consequence for sneaking/lying behaviors is counterproductive, IMO. It teaches that if you are going to sneak and lie, do it better and don't get caught.

I would discourage my kids froming taking library books on a trip too (because I have a secret horror of loosing library books) but I do think that Chfriend is raising a good point about power. I think kids sometimes form a habit of lying when they feel powerless in general, and lying gives them a sense of control. It works for them. So my goal would be, "How can I empower him, and how can I help him learn that its possible to be powerful _and_ honest?"

I don't think there is a quick fix. I think this child probably has some hurt that will make this a long process for him. Trust is not an easy thing, especially when mistrust has become a habit.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

I certainly dont think its "all over". But I do think his coming back to take the books (which were in the library bag near the kitchen counter) when no one was looking is sneaky. Does that make him a terrible kid, of course not.

And, no, letting him take the books was NOT AN OPTION. They were virtually guaranteed to be lost. And thats not a self-fulfiling prophecy. It is a judgment call based on his history and the availability of the other adults in his life to help him. Had he gone straight from here to his grandmothers (DH's mom) I likely would've said yes. But he went home first, both before his grandmothers and here. Why would I set him up to fail? There are little siblings at home who by his description are always messing with his stuff and a mother with a lot more on her mind than library books.

I did like mamaducks suggestions for a dialogue. Letting him know that his decision created two problems and seeing if he can help come up with solutions.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm trying to understand. I'll give you that a step-parent is a parental figure if it's a place the child calls home. But AP says it is not his home. So, he feels like he's a visitor there. Then a visitor at his grandparents' house.

Maybe I'd understand better if AP can describe some of the other "sneaky" behavior she sees. If the child is spending the summer at a number of different people's houses, expected to follow the varying expectations and to leave behind books he's reading until the next time he visits, I guess I think it's a different situation than if I say, "Honey, I'd rather you not take the library book to church today."

Is the ss spending days at each house? weeks? Are these people he feels close to?

I agree with mamaduck that the response has to have something to do with the reason that he defied his instructions to leave behind the book he was reading.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

AP,

We cross posted. Given the situation you described where he is a few days here and a few days there for the summer, the consequence I would suggest is a trip to the bookstore to purchase him a big armload of books for him to keep as his.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Chfriend, if money grew on trees around here I would love to do just that. I did offer to let him borrow books that he had previously said he wanted to read, those belonged to me and I was willing to risk their loss.

I gave two examples of what I consider sneaky or deception. This incident, the game boy incident, and numerous incidents of, oh, dad said its ok, or my grandmother, or whatever adult is not in the room, said its ok for me to... watch an R movie, eat 3 desserts, not take a shower. When confronted with the possibility of that person being asked to confirm he decides against it. I think it works at biomoms house because they (she lives with her parents) are so busy that they never cross check with each other. But that doesnt fly here.

According to his therapist, and a counselor we consulted early on when we found out about him, we can and should define for him what is acceptable here vs at his mom's house. We cant make her raise her standards for him according to our values but we certainly arent going to lower ours. FYI, I am not a hard a$$ with him. I generally let a lot go because I know he is in a tough situation. But lying, cheating, dishonesty in general goes very much against our core values.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

AP,

I'm not saying not to communicate that you don't appreciate him making up stories. I think that's important to communicate.

I also think it's important to communicate to him that since you are a parental figure in his life, that you see it as your responsibility to make sure that he has what he needs. And he needs reading material that he can take with him as he is passed around from place to place.

I homeschool my kids and get a lot of books for not very much money at the thrift store, MDC trading post, vegsource and half.com.

It might be a lot of fun for you and him to go to the thrift store and look for books that interest him.

What kind of things is he interested in? I'd love to look through our books and send some to you/him so he can start to build a library of his own.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

I am not really angry but I want to make clear to him that we dont do things this way here.
AP, I commend you for not being furious and looking for a solution. Having been a step-child myself, I have a lot of empathy for what your step-son is going through and since you seem to be open to it, I will tell you what I think.

I think that being shuffled between two households is very upsetting. Instead of feeling like you have "two homes", you really feel like you don't have any one home. Like when people say "let's go home", that phrase just doesn't apply because you don't get a clear picture of what "home" is like.

I am particularly sensitive to issues when it involves bringing possessions from one place to another because, again, if you had one home then they would simply be there.

I am sure that your step-sons motives were not exactly pure but to me they are very understandable. When you are going from place to place then you want/need things that make the other place feel comfortable.

I like mamaduck's approach and I think that her gentle suggestions will encourage your step-son to feel safe with you. That is the best gift you can possibly give him.

FWIW, I have a step-mother that I adore and even though my father is dead, she is in my life. I have a special fondness for step-moms because of what she means to me.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

I guess our situation is unique in that it was just him and his mom for the first 8 yrs of his life. Her home is where he thinks of as home. Maybe in time we will all bond and become a true family but it hasnt happened yet. In his own words he likes to come visit his dad but he doesnt want to be away from home for more than a few days.

The books in question are comic type books. His mom has a bunch for him. He can and has easily read an entire book in a day so it wasnt unreasonable to ask him to read them while he is here.

I really want to thank MamaDuck especially for your help.


----------



## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I don't think you can make him care, and I don't think you can make him stop lying, and I don't think there is any consequence at all that will make him do these things.

Right now what he seems interested in learning is not, "how can I get along with other people; how can we be a family; how can I fit in; how can I earn their trust; how can I love them and accept love from them." Which is what YOU want him to be interested in learning. He's just not.

What he seems to be interested in is developing his skills in manipulating people, learning how to tell more believeable lies, getting "away" with things because this makes him feel powerful, etc. When you directly try to address these things, you're just providing him with a playing field right now. He wants to learn what he thinks he needs; you want him to learn something different - he's not interested. He thinks he NEEDS to learn to be a better manipulator, better con artist, better at being sneaky - probably because in his tumultous life right now, it is far better to be IN CONTROL than loved and loveable.

Give up the desire to teach him the things he is not interested in learning and in fact, is simply using to hone his skills. Don't expect him to tell you the truth. Don't ask him, "Why did you..." because you won't get the truth and he's just getting practice at lying. Don't remind him he can't take this or that with him - just check his bags and neutrally, without comment, remove what shouldn't be there. Above all, don't base your actions on what he has said - do what you need to do without relying on him, expecting him, or hoping he will be truthful. Take being truthful out of your interaction with him. Follow up ahead of him and behind him as though he were a toddler - neutrally, without judgement.

Instead of focusing on treating his deceit, throw your energy into making it easy for him to attach to you, cry on your shoulder when he is sad, rely on you to be on his side even when he's 100% wrong. I'm guessing his behavior is fueled by attachment issues, and nothing else is more important right now than working on attachment with him.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

If those are the books he likes, it seems like you'd want to get a store them at your house and grandparent's house to make him comfortable and at home there. What other things does he need at your house to make it his?


----------



## freerangemum (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I wonder if it would help to shift focus away from "How to teach him a lesson about lying," to _"How to teach him that it is safe and effective to be honest with us._"

The whole idea of imposing a consequence for sneaking/lying behaviors is counterproductive, IMO. It teaches that if you are going to sneak and lie, do it better and don't get caught.

I don't think there is a quick fix. I think this child probably has some hurt that will make this a long process for him. Trust is not an easy thing, especially when mistrust has become a habit.

Mamaduck, what a graceful response. There's a line drawn between parent and child in these situations - ME against YOU. If the parent can see her way to stepping OVER that line -- I know it's hard, I know it is a leap of faith -- to getting on the same side as the child where now it's US against the PROBLEM. WE have a problem, what should we do. He's the stepson, so it's possible that a stepmother might really not want to play this role for the child. There may be animosity between them or there might not be a natural bond which makes this possible. In that cast, Dad can be the perfect one to do it. Step over that line and get shoulder-to-shoulder with the child against the big bad problem. It's a mental image I've always tried to hold for my own children in times like this.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

...numerous incidents of, oh, dad said its ok, or my grandmother, or whatever adult is not in the room, said its ok for me to... watch an R movie, eat 3 desserts, not take a shower.
Yeah -- it sounds like he has learned that this works for him often enough to reinforce the behavior. I agree with the therapist that having your own set of expecations is fine --- and there should be no need to refer to what mom said, or what grandmom said, or whatever. You don't even really have to address the lying in these circumstances. Just a response indicating that the expectations are different in your home. "_Oh, well thats kind of cool that your mom lets you watch R rated movies. That must make you feel pretty grown up. Unfortunately, I'm still not comfortable allowing it when you are with me. I guess you'll have to tolerate my over-protective nature."_

I also think (being the mom of a 10 year old) that its time to defer some of these issues to his judgement. Some of the lying is probably his attempt to take control where control is due. A ten year old can begin to think about and process these questions (with lots of help.) _"What do you think about watching R rated movies? Do you feel you are ready? Have you ever watched something that upset you? How did you deal with that? What will you do if you are in a situation where you are seeing something that upsets you?"_ Or if this is not an area you feel comfortable relinquishing control, pick another issue that is a trigger for these kinds of fibs.

Honestly, if my 10 year old wanted to eat 3 desserts, I'd let him give that a go. I doubt it would happen more than once because he would not feel well! If my 10 year old wanted to skip a shower, I'd let him -- but I'd also let him know (privately and kindly) that he smelled kind of bad and other people might notice.

I guess I'm saying that trust is a two-way street, and he needs a little faith in order to give a little faith. And I know its a delicate balance to keep. Ten is a hard age in some ways, because they are still little kids, really -- but they are ready for some adult challenges too.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think that he needs to pay for the lost books and not be allowed to use the library near your house again for a while- or at the very least, don't bring him to the library when he's going to be leaving before finishing the books he's taken out.

I think those are consequences enough- there's no need to "punish" him beyond that.

ITA with the others about speaking to him in more positive ways. You told him "don't take the books, you're going to lose them" and guess what? He lost them! Maybe, just maybe, if things were phrased a little differently "Let's think of ways to help you remember the books. Maybe it would be better to leave them here? Or should we ask Nana to remind you to take them with you? Should we ask Nana to mail them to us if you finish them at her house?" etc. etc.

ETA: after reading the later posts in this thread, I no longer think there was any way to prevent those books from being lost if he took them from the house. I would simply avoid taking him to the library for a while, if he can't be trusted with library books.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
You told him "don't take the books, you're going to lose them" and guess what? He lost them!

I said what? It was more along the lines of "You know what, we better keep those here, you have a lot of stuff going on next week and its going to be hard to keep track of them." The next day I just said "Sorry, we already talked about this. Please leave them in the library bag."

It is a big jump to go from me against you to us against the problem. That gave me a lot to thing about.

As far as building a store of things for him here, we do struggle with that. He doesnt have his own room here but he does have his own dresser. He really seems to prefer to keep all his recreational stuff with him. We do insist that he keep some things here but it's mostly big outdoor things. Even though it pains me to let him take things home because they rarely come back, I try to just get over it. After all they are his. His mom really does buy him plenty of "stuff". He gets lots of new DVDs, CDs, books, etc. And frankly, after we pay his child support, I dont feel like it's up to us to buy a steady stream of new stuff. That's why I like the library.

For now DH decided not to make a big deal out of this. So we had him call his grandmother and ask her to look for the book. He thinks he left the other one at home. Depending on wether she finds it we will let it go or have him help replace it.

I do plan to talk with him along the lines of what MamaDuck suggested, just letting him know that when he lies it makes it hard for me to build trust and that I hope we can work on that in the future. And yes, for now, I'll make sure I time our library visits for early in his week here and only as many books/length of book as he can read in 4 days.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I also think (being the mom of a 10 year old) that its time to defer some of these issues to his judgement. Some of the lying is probably his attempt to take control where control is due. A ten year old can begin to think about and process these questions (with lots of help.) _"What do you think about watching R rated movies? Do you feel you are ready? Have you ever watched something that upset you? How did you deal with that? What will you do if you are in a situation where you are seeing something that upsets you?"_ Or if this is not an area you feel comfortable relinquishing control, pick another issue that is a trigger for these kinds of fibs.

Honestly, if my 10 year old wanted to eat 3 desserts, I'd let him give that a go. I doubt it would happen more than once because he would not feel well! If my 10 year old wanted to skip a shower, I'd let him -- but I'd also let him know (privately and kindly) that he smelled kind of bad and other people might notice.


Gosh that is SOOO hard. His mom lets him watch all sorts of movies that I are morally unacceptable in our house. So if I asked him he would say, sure, I watch them all the time. He is perfectly happy to stink it up. In the past he's gone his ENTIRE 5 days without showering because I didnt want to push it. I did finally force it the day before he went home.

Its hard to suddenly be the parent of an older child.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Yeah -- occasionally I will suggest a trip to the pool. You know, real casual --- like I have no hidden agenda or anything.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Maybe also since no one is really following up on any of the stuff he's saying, he's just getting more and more into the habit of telling these half-truths whenever they're convenient. Maybe next time he says, "Dad said it's okay," or whatever, you should go together to Dad and ask him. Maybe knowing that you will hold him to it will help him think more about it before he blurts it out. It doesn't sound like he wants to out-right lie, or is really THAT sneaky, but just like the PP said, he's figured out he can get what he wants this way.

Good luck! It would be hard to parent an older child all of a sudden!


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Does he have an allowance or money that he was saving to buy a toy for himself with? Maybe you can request that he pay for the postage of the book to be mailed back and the late fees with his own money.


----------



## Terrilein (Jan 9, 2007)

This is really tough! I agree that it sounds like he's having attachment issues, power/control issues, learning to manipulate and lie. If he's determined to lie, then he's not interested in building trust. If he wants your trust, then he has to earn it working from the bottom up. I would want to work on all these issues since they seem so intertwined, but I would definitely pick battles with him. I'd be so tempted to strip him of all privileges and responsibilities and treat him like a baby, but that would be too harsh and too draining, not too mention too difficult to pull off since he's not living 100% in your home. So start with the lying. Get your DH and SS's grandmother to work with you on this. Show him that you don't believe a word he says by double checking everthing he says as recommended by pp's until he consistently tells the truth (which may take months).
And then work from there - checking bags/room for other people's things, not letting him borrow items to curb stealing and make him respect other people's property.
Then maybe work on the "nana/dad/mom said I could do XYZ". What you have to say about something counts, too. It's the two of you together at that moment and YOU have to make the judgement calls. Your word is final in that moment and he has to accept and respect it.
As for personal hygiene - that may be a power thing, but it might also be a simple lack of routine at his mom's home. Work on getting him a routine drilled into him. No breakfast until he's showered, hair combed and dressed. No outings/activities until he's brushed his teeth.
Well, those are just my thoughts. No clue if they really work on a 10 year old, especially one that's only around for visits and has so much emotional luggage to deal with. Good luck!


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I just want to comment on the *lying* aspect of it. Don't we confuse our kids all the time about lying and the truth? Don't tell Grandmom you didn't like her casserole, it isn't nice ---- encouraging lying... shhhhhhhh it is so RUDE to comment that someone is fat, or short, or whatever...even if they are .... it isn't nice... encouraging lying... oh santa is real... wait, no he isn't (when they get to a certain age) that was just something we told you so we could have a *magical* christmas... sorry you can't have a snack "the kitchen is closed" and other such lies that many parents feel completely and totally justified in telling their kids their whole lives with a bunch of excuses as to why it is okay...

.

Oy.

This child is TEN. He is not four, or even six. He is TEN. He is more than old enough to understand the difference between being gentle with people's feelings and being deliberately deceitful.

I love the concept of gentle discipline, but I feel like a lot of parents on this board seem to forget that one of the words is DISCIPLINE. By discipline, we mean teaching the child to understand right from wrong, and as authority figures, applying logical consequences where necessary.

There's no need to drag this woman over the coals. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and in this case, the cigar is a lie. It needs to be dealt with.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

By discipline, we mean teaching the child to understand right from wrong, and as authority figures, applying logical consequences where necessary.
Nope. A lot of us don't mean this when we say "discipline." That is your basic belief -- and its fine to own it - but don't assume that its everyone's.

Quote:

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and in this case, the cigar is a lie.
I don't know how it can possibly be that simple, especially in this situation, where a ten year old child has just been introduced in the family 2 years ago, where he has a history/pattern of fibbing and mistrust, and where everyone is struggling to adjust to a challenging situation. Its anything but simple -- there are a lot of complicated underlying issues and feelings, and disregarding them will only leave them to fester and grow.

Quote:

This child is TEN. He is not four, or even six. He is TEN. He is more than old enough to understand the difference between being gentle with people's feelings and being deliberately deceitful.
Captain Crunchy was not off the wall, in her observations. Ten is on the verge of abstract thinking. This boy is smart enough to know that even good decent people do not always "tell the truth." And that there are situations where fibbing sometimes gets people through tough spots unscathed. He's misapplying it grossly, granted, but it still by no means a simple problem to untangle. The point is -- asserting that accross the board, lying is an "inherent wrong," and punishing for it, is not going to fly. He's not going to buy it. Neither would I.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I have not read all the replies (with a toddler climbing on the desk sometimes it's just not realistic!







) but here's my take on it.
I've not been a step child or step parent, so I can not say I know how it feels. However, I can imagine the dynamic (especially with an older child) can have the potential to be volatile, and at best, tense. I can try to see it from both sides, stepmom trying to not be the "evil step mother" while still maintaining some sort of order and peace in the home. And the child feeling displaced and angry at the step mother who 'invaded' his life.
Given that this is a unique circumstance (in that it isnt the OP bio child, but a step child) I may handle this a bit differently than I would with my own children.
I think this can be a lesson learned for both parties, and that he should get his own library card to use from now on. Even if an adult has to sign for it or whatever, it will still make him feel like it is more HIS responsibility. He should be responsible to keep his card and not lose it. All that being said, if he DOES lose it, no biggie. I 've lost mine more times than I care to admit.







And I've also accumulated fines and lost books on more than one (or two or three) occassions.







We aren't made of money either, and I have to sacrifice to pay the fine. That is a lesson learned. No one had to impose a consequence or punish me (not saying the OP wanted to punish). He should be responsible for his books, and if he is late or looses them, he can do chores or whatever for extra cash.
In *this* situation when he asked to keep the books, I would have just re-checked them out again online. That way we have 4 weeks to return them instead of just 2 weeks. And I would have shown him how much they cost (on the back of the book) and told him if they got lost, he would be responsible to pay for them. That takes you out of the 'bad guy' postion and puts him in charge.
I'm an avid reader, and I know it's close to impossible to put down a book once I've started, so I really empathize with you dss. However, he IS old enough to be responsible (to an extent) for his things, and maybe just needs to be given the opportunity to do so. I agree that making him feel comfortable with telling the truth is really important, so I'd try to keep the lines of communication open with him. HTH


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Maybe he could have a special piece of luggage with stuff he is carting from house to house. You could put a list of the contents that need to come back to your house in it and ask the grandparents and his mother to check it when he comes back.

There are lots of solutions. Posting in the Giving area of the Trading Post for the things to have at your house (what specific comic type books?). Making a private space for him away from the toddlers. Setting up special time with just you and dh when he comes to visit so he feels cherished.

This situation is not even a "regular" stepparent situation. This child did not know his father for the first 8 years of his life because his father denied him. It's great that since the law required him to, dh trying to make up for it, but this is not just a simple "my stepkid doesn't like that I took his beloved father away so he's acting out."

If you want him to trust you, you are going to need to make it very very plain that you love him and want him and cherish him and are thrilled that he is part of your family. If those things are not true, then learning what there is about him to love and want and cherish and be thrilled about are the place to start.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
This child did not know his father for the first 8 years of his life because his father denied him.


You act as though you know exactly what happened. You dont. Both DH and biomom slept around A LOT when this child was conceived. When she told DH that it was his he didnt believe her. She dropped it completely. Confirming to him that she didnt really think it was his. Fast forward EIGHT YEARS. By her own admission she never would've contacted DH if her now boyfriend hadnt pressured her because, as he put it, why does he, he have to pay child support when DH didnt. She only put in the paperwork to keep her BFriend happy. There was no tracking down involved. She submitted the paperwork, we got notified, we contacted her. We even paid to have an independent DNA test done as she had let "slip" to her son that she had found his dad. We didnt think it was fair to him to have him a)meet a man who might not be his dad or b) have to wait weeks while we wait for the AG to set up tests.

I am trying to get the nuggets of wisdom from your post but its difficult when you are making offensive comments like that above. We DID NOT KNOW about this child. He was not denied. There are just as many selfish women out there as men. Please keep assumptions that men are the sole cause of fatherless children to yourself.


----------



## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

I would definitely have him pay for...

1. The books
2. The fines
3. The postage (if Nana finds them)

and have him get his OWN library card.


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Does he have an allowance or money that he was saving to buy a toy for himself with?

He gets an allowance from biomom but I dont feel right asking him to use that money. Most likely it will just be taken from the fund we'd use to pay for fun stuff while he's here. So, instead of being able to go get fast food once like we usually do we'll have to skip it. I am still hoping the books can be found but we havent heard

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Terrilein* 
This is really tough! I agree that it sounds like he's having attachment issues, power/control issues, learning to manipulate and lie. If he's determined to lie, then he's not interested in building trust. If he wants your trust, then he has to earn it working from the bottom up........Show him that you don't believe a word he says by double checking everthing he says as recommended by pp's until he consistently tells the truth (which may take months).
And then work from there - checking bags/room for other people's things, not letting him borrow items to curb stealing and make him respect other people's property.

I just dont want to create a police state over here, ya know. I want him to be very clear that we dont play those kinds of games but I realize that he needs time to build new habits.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Maybe next time he says, "Dad said it's okay," or whatever, you should go together to Dad and ask him. .

Good luck! It would be hard to parent an older child all of a sudden!

Yeah, this usually works for us. In this case he just snuck back in to get them. But I dont want anyone to think I think this is the end of the world and he's a lost cause. I just want ideas on how to get across to him that its no ok to defy an adult decision (at least not in our house, adults get the last say here).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Maybe he could have a special piece of luggage with stuff he is carting from house to house. You could put a list of the contents that need to come back to your house in it and ask the grandparents and his mother to check it when he comes back.....

If you want him to trust you, you are going to need to make it very very plain that you love him and want him and cherish him and are thrilled that he is part of your family. If those things are not true, then learning what there is about him to love and want and cherish and be thrilled about are the place to start.

That just seems like it would make a greater point that he has split homes. Lugging around a big box like a hobo. (what's a more PC term) He usually is not here more than a few days and packs up what he thinks he'll want. We do keep a toiletries, some clothes, etc, and we do have some books, games. But his personal recreation stuff he keeps at his moms and brings over whatever he felt like packing.

On the second point, that is obvious, and we are working on it. He came to us as an 8 yr. old with a set of family values very different from our own. There was no instant surge of affection like you have when you set eyes on your newborn. Its building, getting better as time goes on.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlmostAPpropriate* 
You act as though you know exactly what happened. You dont. Both DH and biomom slept around A LOT when this child was conceived. When she told DH that it was his he didnt believe her. She dropped it completely. Confirming to him that she didnt really think it was his. Fast forward EIGHT YEARS. By her own admission she never would've contacted DH if her now boyfriend hadnt pressured her because, as he put it, why does he, he have to pay child support when DH didnt. She only put in the paperwork to keep her BFriend happy. There was no tracking down involved. She submitted the paperwork, we got notified, we contacted her. We even paid to have an independent DNA test done as she had let "slip" to her son that she had found his dad. We didnt think it was fair to him to have him a)meet a man who might not be his dad or b) have to wait weeks while we wait for the AG to set up tests.

I am trying to get the nuggets of wisdom from your post but its difficult when you are making offensive comments like that above. We DID NOT KNOW about this child. He was not denied. There are just as many selfish women out there as men. Please keep assumptions that men are the sole cause of fatherless children to yourself.


AP,

I'm not making an assumption that men are the sole cause of anything. Dh denied being the father, no? Am I misunderstanding that? And assumed that he was not because he didn't get sued? I'm not sure where you are getting that I think something was his fault. Children are a blessing, so I can't see anything about fault in there. I wonder if we are coming at this from very different places.

He knew that someone he had slept with became pregnant and had a child. He denied that it was his. That's what I'm saying. Or am I missing something?

Now he has acknowledged his child. So you have 3 children, not 2. But it doesn't sound like you have made room in your house for the third child. You wonder if a cs only arrangement would be better.

I guess the part I can't figure out is if you and your dh love and cherish this child? Because so much of my discipline with my own children grows out of my love and treasuring of them. If you do, it seems like working out how to relate will be easier. If you don't, do you think it's possible you could? Or will it be more like taking a friend's child to give the mom a break for a while?

How you respond to the situation seems really hinged on that.

And my offer to find some books stands if I could get some more details on the kinds of comic-type books he likes. It seems like if money is one of the big problems in welcoming him, lots of people (including me) would be happy to help make that part easier for you.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

One further thought, which is hopefully helpful. Have you talked to your stepson about how he would like to keep track of his stuff as he moves from house to house? Does he want a stash at each house or some way to keep track as he moves from house to house? What would make him feel most at home?


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but was interested because we don't see that many posters here talking about stepchildren, and there are a lot of divorces and remarries and step children in my family, and my best friend married last year and now has a 12 yr old step dd.

First, welcome to this forum (sorry if you are not new, just don't recall seeing you post here before!)









I wanted to point out that although it is not true for everyone that posts here, many of us do not see the need for there to be a consequence/punishment for everything, and there is at least one sticky above that may be of interest to you as you look for new ways to interact with your step son and maybe even your bio kids.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=454664

Also, I wanted to tell you about two families I know with step children that have had the best outcomes - ie the children are now grown, but there were minimal problems between the step children and step parent (as to many other families I know where the tension runs high). In both of these families, the bio parent was fully involved, as in your case. In both families, the step parent was free NOT to parent, but just to be a friend and housemate basically. They did not have to discipline - that was left up to the two parents.

I can't imagine the complexities of a step family. My dh was part of one (his mother remarried and had more children when he was still small) and I see the emotional scars he still carries today.

I hope your family is able to find a way to live in harmony, peace and love. Every child (as well as the adults) deserves that!

Best wishes,
Tracy


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlmostAPpropriate
Its hard to suddenly be the parent of an older child.








to you, I'm sure it is terribly hard, I can't imagine being in your position.

~Tracy


----------



## towsonmama (May 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlmostAPpropriate* 
He came to us as an 8 yr. old with a set of family values very different from our own. There was no instant surge of affection like you have when you set eyes on your newborn. Its building, getting better as time goes on.

This struck me when I read it. No matter what comes of this library book incident, I think he's lucky to have someone in his life who cares enough about raising him gently that she turns to message boards (which can turn aggressive) for guidance. Good luck!


----------



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

I talk to DSS today. I told him basically that I had been able to renew his books until 08/13/07 and that I was leaving it to him to follow up with his grandmother and his mom and get help to track down the books. If he doesnt find them by then we are going to talk about how he can help pay for them. More importantly I think he really understood the problem he created was bigger than the books. I explained to him that because of that it hurt my feelings for him to have ignored what I asked. Also that he made it hard for me to trust him in the future. I said, You know, "next time I ask you not to take something, if that thing goes missing, even if you never touched it - do you know what the first thing I will think is?" He got that he can created distrust and I could see that the idea of that upset him. The flip side is that I apologized for not really trying to understand his side of the request, that I said no and that was it. I told him that we were going to have a clean slate from here. I would expect him to be honest with me and accept my "no" if it comes but at the same time I would really try to talk with him and figure out ways to say yes. So we finished making dinner together and I feel good - I think he does too.

Thanks all you mamas for your wisdom. Talking to you really helped me see his side and make it more of a dialogue than a sentencing.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm so glad that worked out!!


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I apologized for not really trying to understand his side of the request, that I said no and that was it. I told him that we were going to have a clean slate from here. I would expect him to be honest with me and accept my "no" if it comes but at the same time I would really try to talk with him and figure out ways to say yes. So we finished making dinner together and I feel good - I think he does too.
Gosh -- you are wonderful! Seriously -- this was a beautiful thing for you to say to him. I got choked up reading it. He's a lucky kid!


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

AlmostAP-Your dss is very fortunate to have such a caring step mom. Really. I think you handled it beautifully. Props to you mama!


----------

