# This is over the top



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

(ETA: I x-posted in TAO, because with the search broken I didn't think this would get any replies here.
ETA again: that thread was closed as being off topic)

We're in the midst of dh's family reunion which we are hosting at our home. His parents and two sisters are here, with their spouses and kids.

One sister has 3 boys, ages 1, 2 and 5. We've all known that her dh is far from a gentle parent, and no one in the family likes how he disciplines the boys. On the other hand, he's a stereotypical 'dad' to them - lots of roughhouse play and teasing. He seems to genuinely love them and they him.

Tonight everyone was outside on the patio and he was inside with the 2 yo. Constantly, every few minutes he would scream - literally scream, you could hear it right through the walls of the house - and the baby would cry. Dad would yell "Shut UP!" over and over, threaten, yell, etc.

I was in the bedroom putting dd down. The dad went into this tirade and started screaming nonstop, carrying on about how the baby had 'ruined' his older brother's picture (some crayon drawing he'd done). It went on until I couldn't bear it any longer.

I went to the living room and my other SIL (not his wife) was standing in the hallway outside, just wide eyed and speechless, not knowing what to do. I stood in the doorway and the dad didn't see me yet. He was standing over the baby who was sitting on the floor sobbing hysterically. He was screaming "Look what you did! You ruined it! SHUT UP! I SAID SHUT UP!"

One of the moms had bought the kids some sun visors and had their names printed on them. The dad grabbed the baby's plastic sun visor that was layng close by, wadded it up into a ball, breaking it, and then hurled it straight into the baby's face - with tremendous force and anger, shouting "How does it feel? How does it feel to have your things ruined?"

At that point I walked into the room. He saw me and sat on the couch. He was red faced, sweaty, and trembling with anger. I sat down next to him and said in a very quiet voice "BIL, we simply cannot have that kind of anger in this house. Dd is very sensitive and she is extremely upset. I'm very upset."

He abruptly stood up before I could say anything more, stormed out of the house and told his wife they were leaving. They went off and argued for a long time and then went to bed in their room

I'm just...stunned.

Everyone had overheard the screaming and knew something had happened. We briefly talked about it. Everyone is upset but also feeling hopeless that there is anything to do about it.

For me, I don't have any delusions about changing this guy into a gentle parent. But I do have strong feelings about not wanting my daughter to be exposed to that kind of emotional and physical violence. She's never heard or seen anything like that before, and I don't want her to see it now. But no one wants this family reunion to become derailed. It took us a long time to bring this together.

What to do, what to do...

Open to suggestions.


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

As I was trying to formulate a coherent response to this, I just kept imagining the look of horror my (almost) 1-year-old would have on his face if someone were screaming at him like that. I am no perfect parent, and I have yelled at my older kids lots of times (although not to that extent, of course), but I can't even imagine being that angry at a 1-year-old baby. Or angry at all. He needs professional help. I don't know what I would do, though, because someone that can be that cruel to a 1-year-old would scare me to the point that I don't think I would want to say anything negative to him.


----------



## co op mama (Feb 22, 2008)

I think you handled it exactly right for that moment. I can't imagine being in that situation and staying calm. He needs serious help and I can't imagine that this moment is going to be the moment that he realizes it. I would talk or work on the SIL to get there! Sorry you and your family had to witness this but hope that it spurs him to examine his behavior.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I think you handled it extremely well. I think it is perfectly reasonable to not allow certain kinds of behavior in your house. Clearly this is over the top.

I would have dh speak to his sister in the morning and let her know it is not acceptable.

good luck - sounds wretched...

-Angela


----------



## HoldensMama (Feb 25, 2007)

I would be a lot more worried about this man's children and what they're experiencing on a day to day basis. He sounds abusive and terrifying.
I would boot him out of my house immediately (not sil and kids, though) and do what I could to help them.


----------



## californiajenn (Mar 7, 2007)

If he would do this in front of everyone, he is probably worse when at home. I would be seriously concerned about abuse.


----------



## JoshuasMommy (Feb 19, 2004)

How sad! Tina~


----------



## mommyswenn (May 23, 2004)

He's 2??? OMG my heart is breaking for the little guy.









I started to write more, but coop mama said exactly what I was thinking. So I'll just quote her:

Quote:

I think you handled it exactly right for that moment. I can't imagine being in that situation and staying calm. He needs serious help and I can't imagine that this moment is going to be the moment that he realizes it. I would talk or work on the SIL to get there! Sorry you and your family had to witness this but hope that it spurs him to examine his behavior.
And add a







:

I hope that this IS the wakeup call moment for him and that he gets help. Barring that, I hope your sil finds the courage to break the cycle now and leave with those precious boys.

Many, many







for you all. I hope the rest of the weekend is peaceful.


----------



## jessemoon (May 31, 2004)

This guy needs to understand that a one year old is a baby...a little, helpless, baby! Wow!










I'm not sure what to do about the reunion, but that little one needs extra love tommorow if you can manage it.


----------



## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

You handled it in the best way you knew how.

Now it is time to brainstorm ways to help that family. You must do this for the welfare of the children. The father may love his kids but he needs help before he does more damage to them.

I feel so, so sorry for that little child.









It is *ABUSE*, no doubt about it. He is *abusing his children.* And it has to stop NOW.


----------



## fiorio (Aug 30, 2006)

That is terrible. I feel sick thinking of that poor baby.

I agree with PPs that you did handle it well. But the whole family needs to take action to protect those children. Someone needs to talk to BIL about his abusive behavior and to SIL to help her keep her children safe.


----------



## SheepNumber97245 (Apr 20, 2007)

wow. Yeah i wouldn't want someone like that around my son. And throwing his visor at the baby??? How childish is that! All i can say is i'm scared for that poor baby.








You can keep him away from your daughter but that poor baby has to go home with him!


----------



## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

I went through almost the exact same thing with my brother at Easter time. I think you handled it exactly how you should have, and that's how I handled it as well. I told my brother is no uncertain terms that in my house we treat everyone with respect and without violence, and we handle any kind of disagreement in a peaceful manner. He didn't like it so he left. He is well aware that if I ever witness violence toward children in my presence again that I won't hesitate to intervene.

Everyone's concern is on the welfare of the children, and I think that needs to be addressed through some kind of family sit-down. Can you pull the mother aside and speak with her about how abusive this kind of behavior is to the children and that you are worried for their welfare? Perhaps she can talk him into some kind of counseling? She needs to know that it is also her responsibility to ensure that her children are safe, and that means doing something about a father who is abusive to them. It sounds like he is in desperate need of some counseling for his anger.


----------



## infraread (Jun 3, 2003)

Oh man, I had to step away from the computer when I read this... of course, I'm pregnant and hormonal--but damn.

My first reaction would have been to throw something at your BIL (mention i'm preggo & hormonal??) and give him back his own words. But I know that's not feasible, I think you handled it the best way possible at the time. Perhaps in a calm moment you can introduce the concept of child development? Because truly, a child at one is capable--physically, mentally, and emotionally-- of less than a child at 2, and a two year old doesn't really have the capacity to act maliciously, and so forth. If someone he respects sits him down and explains how damaging his actions were to that baby, _not you_ in this case (unless you have a good enough relationship there that he won't take it as you being judgemental and therefore become defensive) maybe that would help?

Maybe you could get other family members to help with this idea, if they're willing?


----------



## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I would wait and see what happens in the morning- how he acts. It could be that a comment as gentle as yours is enough to get him looking inwardly- it could be that someone needs to reinforce the lesson you started- maybe your FIL?


----------



## macca333 (Jun 14, 2008)

I would have told him that I would not have that behaviour in my house whether my DD was there are not!!! I am truly shocked and me being me I would have waded in earlier with my size 6's and berated him(that's just me tho!).
It certainly does sound like he has anger management issues and needs professional help.
Talk to your SIL(his wife) as she probably feels exactly the same as the rest of you but can't tell him because of his anger.


----------



## cwoodard (Jun 10, 2008)

That's really frightening and incredibly childish. I think you handled it about as well as you can handle something like that! I might have been tempted to call 911 on him.


----------



## mumm (May 23, 2004)

*At that point I walked into the room. He saw me and sat on the couch. He was red faced, sweaty, and trembling with anger. I sat down next to him and said in a very quiet voice "BIL, we simply cannot have that kind of anger in this house. Dd is very sensitive and she is extremely upset. I'm very upset."*

*. And throwing his visor at the baby??? How childish is that!

I am truly shocked and me being me I would have waded in earlier with my size 6's and berated him(that's just me tho!).*

I think exactly the opposite. Here is a man who may be big and adult, but who doesn't seem to have coping skills any better or more mature than the child/baby he was berating. Clearly he too felt out of control and scared. Rather than embarass him further, since he seems to know that something is wrong, why not offer him some gentleness too? Why be so quick to attack a large person when I hear that we should be gentle with little people. Yes, he *should* know better. But it appears he doesn't know how. I think offering him some tools rather than a simple "get it together or get out you big meany" would be better.

When a toddler has a temper tantrum we understand that it doesn't feel good to him/her to feel that way and we offer alternative ways to show anger, frustration, sadness, etc. He is still in need of those alternatives.

Just my opinion. I know a mom's gut reaction is to protect the child but that big man is an out of control child on the inside and here is a chance to help him learn how to do better next time.


----------



## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Omg, are your sister and her kids ok with this man? I mean, really now. That's far, far too violent for the situation. I would worry about all of their safety. Who goes off on a baby like that?

I would get my kids away from him, one way or another. And have a quiet talk with your sister to make sure she or her babies aren't getting the snot beaten out of them at home.


----------



## cwoodard (Jun 10, 2008)

In my experience with big angry men, trying to reason with them or offer them a better way to handle it just results in them turning the anger on you. It comes across as condescending to them and gives them an "excuse" to continue their raging. It's fuel for the fire. I much prefer to do the reasoning afterward, when they aren't angry anymore and about an inch away from physical violence. If you can say or do something to get them to just go away until they are calmed down, like OP did, I think that's ideal. The alternative, imo, is to take yourself and anyone else in his path out of the way until he has cooled down.


----------



## menomena (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
It is *ABUSE*, no doubt about it. He is *abusing his children.* And it has to stop NOW.

ITA with this. (Incidentally, I frequently find myself ITA-ing with MilkTrance, hmmm.)

Legally, SIL is dealing with some "failure to protect" on her own head. He can't hide that level of abuse from her. If she "doesn't know" it's going on, she is either lying or in denial.









I think you handled the moment very well. What happened to the little one at that point?


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Blessed, the dad committed physical and emotional abuse against a baby. Within eye-and earshot of a group of people, lending to the idea that his self control is nil. You didn't say if there was any alcohol involved-just wondering?

You know that if he were to have been seen doing this anywhere else someone would have called the police or protective services. The baby had something thrown into his face--that's a huge deal. It sounds like your walking in on the scene broke the escalating anger/violence, thank goodness, and your calmness provided some stability to the situation.

Your sister's family needs help and support because the situation sounds explosive and dangerous to the children. What an awful experience.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I would probably try to talk to SIL. I grew up very close to 2 dom vio situations, and I know how futile that feels most of the time. At the same time, I would have loved to know there were adults in my family on my side - rather than just thinking there's nothing they can do. When you're in an abusive situation *not* of your own decision-making, it's incredibly empowering to know there are others fighting for your right not to be abused.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Someone asked about alcohol. We'd had wine with dinner but no one was close to being impaired at all.

My impression at the time was that he was verging on completely out of control. I definitely was being careful about engaging him, for my own safety.

I do worry about the safety of SIL and kids. I think we all wonder about that. There have been a couple of broken arms inthe boys, but never any obvious marks that would implicate hitting. I actually think they've been investigated by CPS based on some remarks SIL has made, but I don't think there has ever been anything substative.

BIL stayed locked in his room all morning and didn't come out for breakfast. He's out now, and sitting mostly off to the side. He's doing his constant correcting and punishing of his kids like he does, but absent the extreme yelling and threatening that occurred yesterday. I think he understands that this will not be tolerated here.

He's like a drill sargeant with them. You can tell he gets a kick out of yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do. Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Someone asked about alcohol. We'd had wine with dinner but no one was close to being impaired at all.

My impression at the time was that he was verging on completely out of control. I definitely was being careful about engaging him, for my own safety.

I do worry about the safety of SIL and kids. I think we all wonder about that. There have been a couple of broken arms inthe boys, but never any obvious marks that would implicate hitting. I actually think they've been investigated by CPS based on some remarks SIL has made, but I don't think there has ever been anything substative.

BIL stayed locked in his room all morning and didn't come out for breakfast. He's out now, and sitting mostly off to the side. He's doing his constant correcting and punishing of his kids like he does, but absent the extreme yelling and threatening that occurred yesterday. I think he understands that this will not be tolerated here.

He's like a drill sargeant with them. You can tell he gets a kick out of yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do. Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. *When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.*
I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.

This man is abusive. Did anyone say anything about the fact that he was basically using a form of water torture on his child?!


----------



## cwoodard (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

Holy cow, take those kids away from him! That's obscene!


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Have you tried talking to the mom? He needs some kind of counseling because a full grown adult with this much trouble controlling himself needs to learns some new skills.

I'm sorry you are having to watch this.


----------



## sdm1024 (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessed
. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

Holy cow, take those kids away from him! That's obscene!
__________________

OMG! I too am pregnant (due in two weeks) but just reading about this man is really scary to me. He sounds mean.

I hope that your sister will see how scary this person really is and that their family gets help.


----------



## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

OMG I'd have been crying right along with the one year old if I had been there.
He is being so abusive, yelling in their faces, throwing things at them, hold one of them under water. It's no wonder they tremble when he yells their name and makes them stand in front of him.
He's really in need of some counseling and anger management.
I fell so bad for the mom and kids.


----------



## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

cps needs an anonymous call to report his behavior. if he has had them called before tne this call would show them he needs more services. holding that child under water for splashing is torture. the fact that they are scared of him is abuse. emotiontal abuse. i would call cps. if i knew who he was or where he was at i would call them myself right now just for having read that he would do something so atrocious to a child. this kind of behavior is a habit with him and it is destroying those kids. i would confront the mother and tell her exactly what i think about her failure to protect her children. i would have directly confronted him as well. if i had been present when he held the kid under water until he gasped for breath i would have called the cops right then and there. i would have expected my dh to protect those kids from him (physically if neccessary) until the cops arrived. that could have killed the child. if he even got a little water in his lungs it could have caused "dry drowning". i am so mad right now i cant even see straight and i want to cry for those poor children.


----------



## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

OMGosh!!! Are you kidding?!







:

Why didn't anyone say anything??? It's obvious somebody needs to step in and help these kids. If their own family won't help them, who will?


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

The first incident you described could just have been him loosing his cool from being emotionally upset. After hearing that one I was just going to recomend that you suggest anger management classes to your SIL (that she insist he go not that she go.) However, this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

is something different.

This was not a heat of the moment loose of ones cool. Since the behavior was minor and could either have been left uncorrected (isn't the whole point of letting 5 yo into pools so that they can splash) or he could have simply yelled over "DN, stop spashing," the fact that he took such extreme measures makes me suspect that he had been looking for a chance to correct the kid. This is clearly a power trip for him, not just a lack of parenting skills.

As PP have pointed out this is also dangerous physical abuse. The chances of permanent harm from this are much higher than if he had taken off a belt and beaten the kid, and it was probably nearly as painful too. If they have been in vestigated by CPS in the past it may even have been a calculated punishment b/c it doesn't leave any incriminating bruises to show.


----------



## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.

This is abuse plain and simple, and I'd be making a call to CPS straight away. I know they're family, which to me is all the more reason why I would need to see those children protected. I will also say that no one would have gotten away with that in the presence of our family. I'm trying not to be harsh, but guys, your silence is condoning this, please seriously consider doing something.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It probably seemed like you didn't really Do much for them.. but, it left the dad thinking. He may never admit it, but he's thinking about it. Deep down, he probably knows he was out of line.

Hopefully this will open up a chance for a calm discussion about children, and perhaps some anger management classes. But, right now probably isn't the time for it.

Maybe soon, you can VERY cautiously, and with true concern ask Sister (or sister in law) if she is O.K and if they need anything.

I think you did exactly the right thing. I would have been scared to talk to BIL. I might have grabbed the little boy and run away. LOL. Talking to Mr Hothead, wouldn't have even occured to me.


----------



## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

If that isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Emotional (screaming, yelling, berating) & physical (holding a child under water). Please help these kids! I'm not one that usually says call CPS, but this is definitely abuse and those kids need an adult to help them. Please, please, please help them. It breaks my heart to think of children being treated like this.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I just read the part about the pool.

How come YOU are the only one in the family with enought guts to do anything? Even a calm "O.K Dadoftheyear, lets just chill out, howbout we go play pool *cards, darts.. whatever*"

The others in the house need to nut up a little.


----------



## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
This is abuse plain and simple, and I'd be making a call to CPS straight away. I know they're family, which to me is all the more reason why I would need to see those children protected. I will also say that no one would have gotten away with that in the presence of our family. I'm trying not to be harsh, but guys, *your silence is condoning this*, please seriously consider doing something.

I agree.

Your DH said if you had seen it you would have confronted him. I'm sorry, but why didn't your DH confront him????? For that matter, why didn't he call the police on the spot?

Why are you tolerating child abuse in your home???

Dealing with it privately by talking to his wife isn't going to work. For one thing, he almost certainly abuses her too, and she probably has all sorts of denial/"battered women's syndrome" type issues that keep her from taking the initiative in protecting herself and her kids. The only real solution is to get this guy out of the picture. And since SIL probably won't do it voluntarily, the only way to do that is to get the family into the social services system. Depending on how deeply brainwashed she is by his abuse, she may not do the right thing when forced to choose between him and the kids. In which case you or some other household in the extended family are going to have to step up and foster them.

You know what, f(#*% the family reunion. It SHOULD be derailed. Saving these kids is more important. By making nice and glossing it over you are letting him think it's acceptable. You don't want to ruin the reunion, but it's already ruined for SIL and her kids. BIL is relying on all the rest of you to do exactly what you're doing - not calling him on his behavior because of the reunion. If the family reunion did get completely derailed to intervene in this situation, maybe it would serve as a wakeup call to at least your SIL, if not to the abuser himself.

Ask yourself how you would handle it if they were the only guests in your home. You'd probably be a lot less tolerant, right? And the same is true of your other relatives, but put you all together, and...... this is the kind of group psychology that causes passive-bystander situations a la the Kitty Genovese case.

Please, act.


----------



## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

The second story is really an indication to me that this man could seriously harm or even kill one of his children. Compiled with all that you know about this situation, and that this isn't just a heat of the moment kind of thing, you should have called CPS yesterday and told them everything you know.

The fact that this man would destroy the belongings of a two year old in order to punish him is also really concerning to me. I grew up in an abusive home, and while I wasn't abused my brother was severely. My father would destroy his belongings in order to punish him if he didn't want anyone to witness him hitting my brother, but he did plenty of that as well. Abusers can be very good at hiding what they do and making up stories to cover their tracks. Now my brother is an abuser, and he is very much a drill sgt to his children. His DP is pretty much a prisoner in her own home because she relies on him for money and a place to live, and is compliant about what he does and won't listen to anyone when we try to convince her to leave.

They are terrified of their father and have good reason to be, but they're not in any position to get help and be advocates for themselves. You are.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
It probably seemed like you didn't really Do much for them.. but, it left the dad thinking. He may never admit it, but he's thinking about it. Deep down, he probably knows he was out of line..

I think this is probably closer to the truth than anything.

He's been better behaved all day today. I'm pretty sure he feels the collective disapproval about his actions last night, and knows that it won't be tolerated. I think he stayed in his room so long this morning because he was ashamed and embarrassed.

We're not going to split this family. We don't have the power to and we wouldn't choose to. They are a devoted couple and he is a devoted family man. So that's just not going to happen. He is not going to leave his home. And, importantly, his family doesn't want him to.

CPS isn't going to remove children for being dunked in the pool or for being yelled at and hit with a thrown hat. So being confrontational and histrionic isn't going to benefit anyone. Least of all the children, who would probably be the most upset and injured of anyone by it.

We are all carefully modeling gentle parenting, both with our own kids and also with his kids, before he has a chance to jump in with his tyrannical methods. I'm certain that it's making an impression on him. He won't change overnight, but if it spares the children some drama and fear then it helps.

Dh commented that if I saw him dunk dd like that, he knew that he would be divorced before the week was up. And it's absolutely true - I could not be married to someone who would treat our child that way. But it's not my marriage and SIL is making her own way through this as best she can. Thankfully, she is just an outstanding mother.

So, we'll see how this goes. If he comes unglued again then there'll certainly be fireworks. Because I cannot tolerate that abuse in my home. But in the meantime we're all trying to be as supportive as we can in helping him learn that he can be a better father.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think this is probably closer to the truth than anything.

He's been better behaved all day today. I'm pretty sure he feels the collective disapproval about his actions last night, and knows that it won't be tolerated. I think he stayed in his room so long this morning because he was ashamed and embarrassed.

We're not going to split this family. We don't have the power to and we wouldn't choose to. They are a devoted couple and he is a devoted family man. So that's just not going to happen. He is not going to leave his home. And, importantly, his family doesn't want him to.

CPS isn't going to remove children for being dunked in the pool or for being yelled at and hit with a thrown hat. So being confrontational and histrionic isn't going to benefit anyone. Least of all the children, who would probably be the most upset and injured of anyone by it.

We are all carefully modeling gentle parenting, both with our own kids and also with his kids, before he has a chance to jump in with his tyrannical methods. I'm certain that it's making an impression on him. He won't change overnight, but if it spares the children some drama and fear then it helps.

Dh commented that if I saw him dunk dd like that, he knew that he would be divorced before the week was up. And it's absolutely true - I could not be married to someone who would treat our child that way. But it's not my marriage and SIL is making her own way through this as best she can. Thankfully, she is just an outstanding mother.

So, we'll see how this goes. If he comes unglued again then there'll certainly be fireworks. Because I cannot tolerate that abuse in my home. But in the meantime we're all trying to be as supportive as we can in helping him learn that he can be a better father.


She may be an oustanding mother, but she is watching her children be abused without defending them.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
... but she is watching her children be abused without defending them.









Not true at all. She spends the better part of her day protecting them, in a million different ways. If he has any sense of accountability and control, it is entirely due to her.


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Blessed, you quote nextcommercial as being somewhere closest to the truth, but nextcommercial wrote that part before reading about the pool incident, and changed her stance after she read the about the dunking part.

1) As everyone has said, some one needs to do something for these children. this man is abusive.
2) If this man can do this shamelessly after being corrected on his behavior like it's no big deal, bigger things are happenning behind closed doors.
3) I'm starting to get a bit suspicious of the broken arms you mentioned in the children that happenned in the past.

Edit: She may be a wonderful mother, but those children are still obviously not getting the protection from this man that they need. It's not about her, it's about the children. I wonder how he's treating her behind closed doors as well...


----------



## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
She may be an oustanding mother, but she is watching her children be abused without defending them.

















:

I grew up with a father who sounds very similar to this guy, and part of me still hates my mother for keeping us there. The children don't get a choice in the matter, especially if everyone in the family just lets it go on like this. I don't think the hurt of a divorce is anything compared to how they are suffering right now.

I think if it had happened in my house I would have phoned the police and had him taken away and would have given a very detailed report. Abusers rely on people keeping quiet.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
1) As everyone has said, some one needs to do something for these children. this man is abusive...

By my standards and by those of MDC parents, he is. Not in the eyes of law, however. Nor even in the eyes of many mainstream American parents, to be honest.

I'm open to suggestions which anyone thinks is helpful.

Magical thinking isn't very helpful. Commandments like 'this must be stopped!' aren't helpful. None of us can snap our fingers and make him dissapear or turn into a better father.

Calling the police? Calling CPS? And when they show up they find 3 happy, healthy looking little boys without a mark on them, playing in the backyard. Yes officer, I yelled at my son. He broke something and needed discipline. Yes sir, I'm sorry, I lost my temper and threw a hat at him. No sir, you can see that it didn't hurt him at all, it's just a made of paper and plastic. Yes officer, we were playing and I dunked my son in the pool. That's not against the law, is it, sir?

All done? Now BIL packs his family up and leaves, and we probably never see the boys again. Any chance we had to love the boys, parent them gently, be a part of their lives, to make a difference is gone.

So, since we are left with working within reality and dealing with real life consequences, the decisions about how to best approach this are complex and not at all straighforward.

If you've got a better plan, let me know.


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Personally, if several people witnessed it, I think the authorities may take it as more serious than what you're thinking they will, although I don't know. I mean, of course if they ask _him_ what happenned, he'd probably water it down. But if someone like you would call them and recap in as much detail as possible everything that happenned at your place today, and a few other witnesses back you up, I think they may take it seriously. Even if they don't _do_ anything, they have more records on this man combined with past records, and any future ones that others may file on him, I think that will count for something.

And if it were me, if in doubt about what he did as actually being causes for action on their part, I'd at least ask. Describe what you saw, and ask about it.

I hope something changes for these children's sake. It's not "magical" thinking, or whatever you call it to hope and beg somebody to do something for the sake of these children.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Not true at all. She spends the better part of her day protecting them, in a million different ways. If he has any sense of accountability and control, it is entirely due to her.

Passively watching him abuse her children is not protection. I'm sorry, but no matter how loving she is, if she doesn't intervene in the abuse, she is not protecting them.


----------



## JenMidwife (Oct 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Calling the police? Calling CPS? And when they show up they find 3 happy, healthy looking little boys without a mark on them, playing in the backyard.

*
These are happy children?????*







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
...yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do....

...the boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over...

...he came up choking and crying.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenMidwife* 
*
These are happy children?????*







:

Yes, they are. When not being yelled at they are joyful, playful, affectionate. They are wonderful cousins to dd and play well with her.

We spent a lovely morning at the state park together, and everyone had a good time. Right at this moment the 5 yo is sitting next to dd in a chair, looking at a book together. The 2 yo is napping in his father's arms in the bedroom. And the 1 yo is breastfeeding while his mother sits with the older children.

This isn't a movie. There aren't evil characters and good characters. There are just people who are struggling to be the best they can be.


----------



## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
By my standards and by those of MDC parents, he is. Not in the eyes of law, however. Nor even in the eyes of many mainstream American parents, to be honest.

I'm open to suggestions which anyone thinks is helpful.

Magical thinking isn't very helpful. Commandments like 'this must be stopped!' aren't helpful. None of us can snap our fingers and make him dissapear or turn into a better father.

Calling the police? Calling CPS? And when they show up they find 3 happy, healthy looking little boys without a mark on them, playing in the backyard. Yes officer, I yelled at my son. He broke something and needed discipline. Yes sir, I'm sorry, I lost my temper and threw a hat at him. No sir, you can see that it didn't hurt him at all, it's just a made of paper and plastic. Yes officer, we were playing and I dunked my son in the pool. That's not against the law, is it, sir?

All done? Now BIL packs his family up and leaves, and we probably never see the boys again. Any chance we had to love the boys, parent them gently, be a part of their lives, to make a difference is gone.

So, since we are left with working within reality and dealing with real life consequences, the decisions about how to best approach this are complex and not at all straighforward.

If you've got a better plan, let me know.

I don't know where you are, but angrily holding children under water would be considered abusive in many areas. Throwing things at a toddler would be considered abusive in many areas. Frankly, I've seen children removed for less, but at the very least reporting them would open up an investigation and make sure these children are protected. If you all stood up for these children when CPS came to do their interviews, you bet they would have something to investigate.

I'm not sure what is going on with your posts, one moment the children are trembling in fear, from a father who gets his kicks out of it and sobbing their hearts out as their father destroys their property, scares the life out of them and throws something at their face, someone who is capable of "emotional and physical violence". The next moment he's a devoted family man and they are happy children. I understand that having the authorities intervene with a family is a very scary thought, but not nearly as scary as even more children growing up with abuse while people who are supposed to protect them stand by, because even worse than their parents actions, they somehow think it's okay, and god forbid they do that with their own families when they grow up.

Modeling how to be a gentle parent generally doesn't work for these people. My mother was as gentle parent as they came, she did wonders to protect me, however it still didn't prevent myself from being beaten. And I can tell you it doesn't prevent most children from being abused.

Basically it's in your hands, but I can tell you that based on everything you've said that yes it is abuse and yes most CPS agencies in North America would likely launch an investigation if a whole bunch of people came forward saying that this is what they've witnessed. Especially if there was a case on them before.


----------



## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

I used to be happy too, when my dad wasn't in the midst of kicking the crap out of my mother/siblings. It doesn't mean for a second that he wasn't abusive, or that my mother should have stayed with him. People who abuse their children/wives don't do it 24/7. They generally have a freakout, and then calm down for awhile, days, sometimes even weeks, and then have a massive blowout again. Just because he acts like a decent person in between his episodes doesn't mean they're not damaging his children for life. And a lot of people tend to see the calm moments and think "Oh, it's not so bad..he's being really nice now" or "This will be the time that it doesn't happen again". It's a very normal pattern for family abuse situations.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I don't think CPS would do anything about the first incident you described, but there's a good chance they would do something about holding a child underwater as punishment. If they have investigated them in the past, there's a good chance they're waiting for solid evidence and eye witnesses to be willing to testify or at least write out a statement in order to be able to do something concrete about it. Even if they can't, this time - everytime a report is made, they are building evidence against them. If the time comes that they feel it prudent to act, they will have enough evidence to get the kids to safety. I am not someone who thinks CPS should be called at the drop of a hat. In fact, as someone who was unjustly removed from her home as a child, I am suspicious of them. Even I think you should call. Even I would call if I saw that. Holding a child underwater as punishment is in a whole different league than yelling or throwing something or even spanking.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I can tell you without reservation that a police report or CPS report would go absolutely nowhere aside from forever severing my relationship with my nephews.

They will see clean, polite, happy children who are obviously loved and well cared for, without any sign of abuse whatsoever. They will see a middle class, professional couple who look for all the world like Ward and June Cleaver.

They'll hear a story about everyone playing in pool, the child being rambunctious and not listening, and dad dunking him. Family members dunking each other are pretty ordinary. I was dunked plenty as a kid. I imagine so was the cop who would be here listening to some crazy lady (me) trying to convince him that this all American family man, this clean cut, handsome, polite and well spoken coach of his kid's soccer and softball teams, this boy scout leader, is an abuser and needs to go jail. Because he dunked his kid. The cops probably wouldn't make it back to the squad car before bursting into laughter.

So I could call. And I would be extremely short sighted and foolish to do so. Because it would wreck the relationships of this family - forever. And it would do nothing except solidify this family against me and any influence that I might have had with them.


----------



## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, they are. When not being yelled at they are joyful, playful, affectionate. They are wonderful cousins to dd and play well with her.

We spent a lovely morning at the state park together, and everyone had a good time. Right at this moment the 5 yo is sitting next to dd in a chair, looking at a book together. The 2 yo is napping in his father's arms in the bedroom. And the 1 yo is breastfeeding while his mother sits with the older children.

This isn't a movie. There aren't evil characters and good characters. There are just people who are struggling to be the best they can be.

People who are severely abused are rarely walking around depressed and crying all day. Just because he sometimes calms down long enough for his wife to not leave him and his kids to not cry and scream every time he approaches does not make it better. In fact, the very fact that things seem all back to normal means that the 5 yo does not find it out of the ordinary to be held under water. A child who is not abused would not apparently recover from that easily. A woman who is not abused would not go and spend the night with her husband after such incidents. If she has to spend most of her time protecting her kids, that is a more than obvious sign of a very bad situation.

Having his whole family sit there and barely say anything about his behaviour is a great reinforcement for him to stay in denial of how abusive he is. He might tone it down in public from now on, but the only consequence of that is to make him a more efficient abuser.

I get the fact that the likely outcome of a call to CPS is just you not being able to see your nephews again, but you need to do something about it. A family reunion seems like the perfect opportunity for a family talk on the subject. Everyone needs to come together and address the problem. Perhaps an ultimatum is in order at this point. He either gets some help or the whole family will make sure those kids are safe by whatever means necessary.


----------



## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Since you don't seem convinced the authorities will do anything about this, how about starting with a heart-to-heart w/ your sister? Does she KNOW how horrible his behavior is? Is she aware that you consider it abusive? If it were my sister, I would tell her, privately, with tears in my eyes and fear in my voice, that I'm worried her husband is going to KILL one of her kids with one of his temper tantrums. (I mean, it isn't too hard to imagine a dad who holds his kid underwater against his will might do so again, and this time wait a little bit too long... nor it is hard to imagine a man who would throw a hat might throw something else, like a heavier object, or a punch.) I would tell my sister that I think he needs anger management counseling and an ultimatum. Maybe he needs a "time out" from the family in the form of a time of separation. Unless she is being abused as well (and possibly even if she is) she should take action. Maybe she thinks it is acceptable, but she's not sure, and she needs to hear it from someone else that it is not.

I read these stories, and I fear for these kids, I really do.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Yes, having a family discussion...

Talking to SIL...

These are ideas that can possibly go somewhere meaningful. Let's focus on reasonable solutions that might actually help.

Calling CPS/cops makes about as much sense as telling me to get a pistol, walk out there and shoot dad down in front of the kids.


----------



## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
(I mean, it isn't too hard to imagine a dad who holds his kid underwater against his will might do so again, and this time wait a little bit too long... nor it is hard to imagine a man who would throw a hat might throw something else, like a heavier object, or a punch.)

I recall my dh telling me about a news article he read online a year or so ago about a father who killed their toddler by punching her in the face after she knocked over his xbox. I highly doubt that father, or most parents who end up killing their children in this way set out to do so, but it does happen fairly often. Serious injury or even death would be a very real fear of mine if the kids were my relatives.


----------



## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Have you discussed this with anyone else there besides your DH? I hope the other people in your family agree with you (it is hard to imagine anyone who would not, but I know how surprising people can be). If everyone agrees, then maybe doing intervention-style would work. An important thing to keep in mind is that his wife and kids will likely go home with him so make sure he does not see it as her fault and wants to 'punish' her for it later. Maybe sending his wife and the kids on an errand or activity would work.


----------



## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
I recall my dh telling me about a news article he read online a year or so ago about a father who killed their toddler by punching her in the face after she knocked over his xbox. I highly doubt that father, or most parents who end up killing their children in this way set out to do so, but it does happen fairly often. Serious injury or even death would be a very real fear of mine if the kids were my relatives.

It seems like there's a story like that on cnn.com every week or so.


----------



## Ziggysmama (Dec 26, 2007)

How about this plan for now...Please take SIL out for a coffee somewhere...Just you and her.. Have a heart to heart with her. Straight out ask her if she needs help...Sometimes all it takes is for someone else to put into words what you yourself have been thinking...
Let her know that your and the rest of your family will wholeheartedly support her and her children if she needs to get herself out of an abusive situation. Be honest and open... Let her know that you will listen and do whatever it takes to help her.
Your sisterinlaw maybe waiting for the help you need to provide....


----------



## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

I'm not following what the OP actually wants. I understand she came to vent, maybe ?, or because she had to tell someone, anyone, because she was overwhelmed by the situation. But what I don't understand is coming to MDC of all places, GD central, and telling this and not thinking people will be up in arms over it. On MDC I usually see a tend to shy away from CPS intervention, not encouragement to it. So for this many to say, hey I think there is a real problem and authorities need to be involved seems to be a key in the answer to the problem.

So I guess what I'm asking is to the OP what do you want everyone to say that will make this situation better for those little boys other than get them help outside of the family?


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I guess I just don't have a lot of faith that an intervention style meeting would do anything to improve these kids' situation. Did other family members at the pool see the episode the way your dh did? Because if there are multiple people telling CPS (not the police, but the social workers) that what they saw was not harmless playing, i don't know why the social worker woudl think it was just because that's what the dad says it was. All I know is that I would never be able to forgive myself if I saw/knew about something like this, and later the kids ended up dead in the bathtub.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz* 
So I guess what I'm asking is to the OP what do you want everyone to say that will make this situation better for those little boys other than get them help outside of the family?

And you believe that making an unsubstantiatable report to CPS will result in 'getting help'?

If this family went through a divorce there'd be a damn good chance the father would get full custodial rights. He looks good on paper. He's just a stern, loving father, by all outward appearances.

Do you honestly see no way to approach this problem aside from imploding the structure of this entire family? Quite frankly, this just seems like a very juvenile and immature thought process to me. Something that would seem sensible only to a person who was very young, very rash, and prone to make major mistakes with their life.


----------



## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Was this man abused or treated roughly as a kid? I'm NOT condoning his actions but maybe he doesn't know of any other way to discipline his kids? Could you have a serious talk with him about anger management or gentle discipline - stating facts about how kids learn better and are easier to raise with "these great parenting techniques (ie GD) that you and your dh have started using? All given to him in a non-accusatory manner so that he doesn't just turn you off right away and escalate his force on the kids?

What a situation! Sorry you have to be around it - maybe it was brought to you b'c you are strong enough to help. Just some thoughts. How awful.

Those boys walk around filled with anxiety and fear and insecurity every day of their young lives. And could very well repeat that with their own children if no one helps now.


----------



## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I have to say that if I had the kind of anger that your BIL has and I emotionally abused my 2 year old and held my 5 year old underwater (in anger, not playing), I would hope that someone would take my kids away from me until I got help for myself. That would be a wake-up call to me to get the help I needed.

He obviously needs some anger management classes and some therapy.

I know you are in a tough spot and it sounds like you want to try to do something to help. I agree with the comments about taking your SIL out just the two of you and have a heart to heart talk.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
Did other family members at the pool see the episode the way your dh did?

Yes, they saw a father dunk his kid because he was frustrated that he wouldn't listen while playing in the pool. It wasn't water torture. It wasn't child abuse. It was pushing his head underwater and holding him for a few seconds. That's called dunking and every swimmer I've ever known has been dunked.

It's something that none of us would ever, ever do to our children. It was disgusting and sad to the people who saw it. But it would never fit the category of abuse in any court in this land.

Yes, if there were some pattern of using this as discipline. Yes, if there were strange circumstances, like making the child go outside and get into the pool to receive his punishment. But someone dunking their kid one time as they are all swimming in the pool together - just no way.

I'm sorry, but this is frustrating to me. Let's call a spade a spade. It doesn't help me to get all histrionic and hyperbolic. I have to work within the system. I can't have this guy arrested because he doesn't believe in gentle discipline.

Anyway, I'm thinking that a good starting point is to have a private conversation with SIL about his anger issues and how she perceives them. Maybe this is something they are already working on, for all I know.


----------



## uccellina (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm going to come down on the don't call CPS side here. This guy sounds a lot like my father (except that my father wasn't devoted or loving at ANY time). CPS was called on him when I was nine, they came, investigated, and despite the officer's misgivings they didn't have enough evidence to do anything. My dad didn't get nicer, he just got more careful. The next time he left marks he just kept me away from other people until it had faded - two weeks, if memory serves. And he never forgave me for CPS coming (my camp counselor called), and berated me about it for the next fifteen years.

I agree that you should talk to your SIL, but I also agree that calling CPS could sever your relationship with these kids - who clearly need you - while not benefitting them at all.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *number572* 
Was this man abused or treated roughly as a kid?(

Yes. His father is, and was, a complete tyrant. His mother is terrified of him, as were all the children.

This is normal parenting, from his perspective.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 
I have to say that if I had the kind of anger that your BIL has and I emotionally abused my 2 year old and held my 5 year old underwater (in anger, not playing), I would hope that someone would take my kids away from me until I got help for myself. That would be a wake-up call to me to get the help I needed.

He obviously needs some anger management classes and some therapy.

I know you are in a tough spot and it sounds like you want to try to do something to help. I agree with the comments about taking your SIL out just the two of you and have a heart to heart talk.

I agree. If I ever behave that way I hope my family intervenes and helps my children.

Are the other people in your family who viewed the swimming pool event willing to acknowledge it is abuse? If the whole family is willing to go talk to him and try and get him to get some type of anger management and parenting classes, that might be a big wake up call for him. If he continues with the abusive behavior, what is the family ready to do to protect these children? You need to sit down and have a family meeting and come up with a plan on how you are going to deal with this.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, they saw a father dunk his kid because he was frustrated that he wouldn't listen while playing in the pool. It wasn't water torture. It wasn't child abuse. It was pushing his head underwater and holding him for a few seconds. That's called dunking and every swimmer I've ever known has been dunked.

It's something that none of us would ever, ever do to our children. It was disgusting and sad to the people who saw it. But it would never fit the category of abuse in any court in this land.

Yes, if there were some pattern of using this as discipline. Yes, if there were strange circumstances, like making the child go outside and get into the pool to receive his punishment. But someone dunking their kid one time as they are all swimming in the pool together - just no way.

I'm sorry, but this is frustrating to me. Let's call a spade a spade. It doesn't help me to get all histrionic and hyperbolic. I have to work within the system. I can't have this guy arrested because he doesn't believe in gentle discipline.

Anyway, I'm thinking that a good starting point is to have a private conversation with SIL about his anger issues and how she perceives them. Maybe this is something they are already working on, for all I know.

Why are you making excuses for him? You said in your previous post that held the child under until he came up choking and crying. Being held underwater is the most horrible thing I can imagine. You said this child came to him crying, trembling and afraid, so he knew his dad was getting ready to do something horrible to him. Frustrated is yelling at your kid, not holding him underwater to punish them. And no matter what you call it, holding a child underwater to punish them is not dunking, it is abuse. Dunking is when you push a someones head down, but you don't hold it underwater.


----------



## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, they saw a father dunk his kid because he was frustrated that he wouldn't listen while playing in the pool. It wasn't water torture. It wasn't child abuse. It was pushing his head underwater and *holding him for a few seconds*. That's called dunking and every swimmer I've ever known has been dunked.

That is not at all how you portrayed it in your initial post about the incident, not even close. The coolness of your tone shocks me. A child who comes up sputtering, choking and is shaking with fear to come to their PARENT is not okay. I see your reluctance; I hope it is not at the price of these children. How you can discount the responses from members on this board who were those children growing up is beyond me.


----------



## cwoodard (Jun 10, 2008)

My DH grew up with an abusive father, so he had some anger issues too. He was a wonderful guy at heart who adored me, but he never learned how to deal with situations except to fight about them. And he got an anger "high" off it, it was self-rewarding and intoxicating to him. It was like living with Dr Jeckel and Mr Hyde. I tried sooo many nice, pleasant, gentle ways to deal with it and to try to teach him a better way. But they didn't sink in at ALL. Finally I told him either you go to anger management counseling and work on this or we're done because I can't spend the rest of my like like this. He believed I was serious, and he went to anger management counseling. He turned over a new stone, and he's been working hard at it ever since. To the point where I finally felt comfortable about having children with him; and he's been a wonderful father!

I guess my point is these angry men don't understand "nice". You need to do something strong enough to get their attention and to convince them you're serious. I don't know if calling CPS is the answer, quite possibly it's not. But trying to have nice little chats or teach by example is not going to work imo. I think your SIL needs to give him an ultimatum.

Anyway, hope something gets worked out so those poor kids don't have to live in fear of their dad! Good luck.


----------



## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

OP, I understand that this is a very complicated, highly emotional situation for all involved.

However, if I had to choose between never seeing my nephew again but *knowing* he was safe and protected from an abuser, or being in his life but knowing he was being abused, I'd learn how to deal with never seeing my nephew again. Because, seriously, it's not about my wants or my feelings. It's about making sure a child I love and care about is safe *all the time*, even if I'm not part of that child's life.

Tolerating even intermittent abuse in order to not rock the boat, is too close to being complicit with the abuser's actions for my comfort. A family that is kept together by tiptoeing around the truth and avoiding confrontation in order to "keep the peace" is not a good family for anyone.

And yes, I know from whence I speak. I confided in adult relatives about abusive behavior by my parents. Those relatives who did nothing to help me or my brother ... I'll never be able to completely forgive them, even though I've managed to forgive my parents. Those who did something, anything, even if it earned them the ire of one of my parents - them, I love and respect even more.

Please consider what is truly best for your nephews in the long-term.


----------



## 3kiddos (Jan 1, 2007)

I was told in a parenting class given by a former CPS worker that if you have concerns-to call CPS- not give them identifying info about the person- but describe your concerns and ASK them if that is something that should be reported, and go from there.

I would hope that if I treated my kids in the ways you've described, that someone would help them, and me.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes. His father is, and was, a complete tyrant. His mother is terrified of him, as were all the children.

This is normal parenting, from his perspective.

So why are you ...just... stunned?

From OP:

--He abruptly stood up before I could say anything more, stormed out of the house and told his wife they were leaving. They went off and argued for a long time and then went to bed in their room

I'm just...stunned.---


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Madonna* 
However, if I had to choose between never seeing my nephew again but *knowing* he was safe and protected from an abuser, or being in his life but knowing he was being abused, I'd learn how to deal with never seeing my nephew again..

Be specific.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

This thread is being returned to the board. I have removed posts that violated the MDC UA. Please refrain from taking direct issue with a poster in the thread and instead contact the member directly via PM for clarification or report the post in question and a moderator will handle it. Thank you.

DC


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

He sounds like he's a major jerk. But, I don't think calling CPS is the best idea in this situation.

I think what she did was fantastic, and I hope others in the family will follow suit.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, they saw a father dunk his kid because he was frustrated that he wouldn't listen while playing in the pool. It wasn't water torture. It wasn't child abuse. It was pushing his head underwater and holding him for a few seconds. That's called dunking and every swimmer I've ever known has been dunked.

That's not called dunking where I'm from. Dunking is something that people do to each other *IN PLAY*, not as a form of punishment or a knee-jerk angry reaction. Many swimmers I've known have been dunked, but no swimmer I've ever known has been shoved/held underwater because someone was angry at them. I'm sort of astounded that you don't differentiate between those two.


----------



## bczmama (Jan 30, 2006)

Do you think your BIL would respond better to "male" authority than "female" authority? Sounds like he might be pretty traditional.

Maybe your FIL pulling him aside and saying something along the lines of "this sort of thing didn't go on in the home I raised SIL in, and when you married, I believed and expected that both SIL and your future children would be in a safe, comfortable home, where they were respected and well-treated. You know your anger isn't normal, and I know your anger isn't normal. I know you love SIL and the kids, what can I do to help?


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, having a family discussion...

Talking to SIL...

These are ideas that can possibly go somewhere meaningful. Let's focus on reasonable solutions that might actually help.

Calling CPS/cops makes about as much sense as telling me to get a pistol, walk out there and shoot dad down in front of the kids.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I'm open to suggestions which anyone thinks is helpful.

Magical thinking isn't very helpful. Commandments like 'this must be stopped!' aren't helpful. None of us can snap our fingers and make him dissapear or turn into a better father.

[snip]

So, since we are left with working within reality and dealing with real life consequences, the decisions about how to best approach this are complex and not at all straighforward.

If you've got a better plan, let me know.


Condescending responses to suggestion you don't like make it difficult for me to think you really want help with this. If you want to model being gentle to your BIL I think that's great. But please remember to be gentle with those here at MDC who may think differently than you do as well.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I too think that this man is abusive to his children. And no, not everyone is "dunked" deliberately in the pool. And playful dunking does not involve force or crying. However, I also hear you on your reluctance to go to the authories on what could be explained away and while it would be really clear who (within a few people) had called.

I like Bczmama's idea of getting another man involved. Is BIL close to your DH? Maybe he would be willing to have a man-to-man conversation, in addition to FIL?

I can't tell - does this family live near by? Do you see them often or did they have to travel to get to you. If you see them often, I would definitely reach out to SIL and try to see them more often so you can keep tabs on what is happening.

If they live in a different community, could you reach out to someone else to keep tabs on things? I would suggest calling the principal of the boys school with a "listen, I'm not sure about anything but I think maybe these children are being abused and could you and teacher keep an eye out for problems?" All of the principals I know would be grateful for the heads up. That way, if they too see something, they make the call (as mandated reporters), you don't get connected, and you are then in a place to potentiall help pick up the pieces.


----------



## elisent (May 30, 2006)

This is so so awful! That is extremely abusive. If the dad feels comfortable treating his BABY like that in someone else's house then what does he do at his own???


----------



## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I don't think the OP is being condescending or ungentle. It seems to me that she's trying to figure out the most effective way to handle this, and everyone is *insisting* she do something that she doesn't think is a good idea. I would feel defensive too.

OP, have you spoken w/ SIL or FIL about this?


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 
Do you think your BIL would respond better to "male" authority than "female" authority? Sounds like he might be pretty traditional.

Maybe your FIL pulling him aside and saying something along the lines of "this sort of thing didn't go on in the home I raised SIL in, and when you married, I believed and expected that both SIL and your future children would be in a safe, comfortable home, where they were respected and well-treated. You know your anger isn't normal, and I know your anger isn't normal. I know you love SIL and the kids, what can I do to help?


I think this is a good idea. My dh was raised by an angry, abusive father who behaved a lot like your BIL. He still refuses to have anything to do with most of his relatives because they just sat by and watched. You don't have to call cps, but you do need to accept that this is abusive behavior and it needs to stop.


----------



## mean_jeannie (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Anyway, I'm thinking that a good starting point is to have a private conversation with SIL about his anger issues and how she perceives them. Maybe this is something they are already working on, for all I know.

I know that I am late to this thread. I think that this is an excellent place to start. Private conversations now are a must. No one wants to feel embarrassed or criticized in front of everyone. An Intervention-style conversation would be most negative. Show respect and you will be heard.

My sister and bil are not into GD at all. It breaks my heart to see how they discipline their children. When my mother tries to talk to my sister about it her response is, "Well you're not here 24/7 to see how they act. You don't have to listen to the whining and screaming." They just simply don't see the link from the way they treat their kids to the way their kids treat them and each other.

I also think that *bczmama* might be onto something. Like if you know of an older man who might be able to have a conversation with bil. Maybe a pastor?

FWIW, I understand your plea for reasoning, not "histrionics and hyperbole." This is an extremely delicate family situation that, IMO, requires baby steps, not stomping upon.

GD requires a lot of patience and self-control. Not everyone can just do it. Good parenting takes effort and consistency, two qualities that I see lacking lately in people in general and in our society where its easier to turn the tv on than connect with one's own children. Yelling is easier than modeling - "do as I say, not as I do."

Good luck, and I hope things can work out for your family.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
OP, have you spoken w/ SIL or FIL about this?

Not directly with SIL. We've exchanged glances and help run interference together at times when dad's coming down on one of the boys, so I'm sure she knows that I'm concerned.

FIL and pretty much everyone in the family thinks that BIL is 'too rough' and 'too strict' with the boys. But I don't think anyone thinks that he is physically abusing them. I've never seen him spank or hit, for instance, and I don't think that they incorporate spanking into their discipline typically, although I'd bet he's lost his temper and done it. I think that, for reasons like this, BIL considers himself a very gentle parent compared to his own upbringing, which did include lots of outright beatings.

He tends to yell, threaten, be physically intimidating and rough. For instance, grabbing a child roughly by the arm while yelling in his face. Dd cringes when he yells and all the nephews are leery of him. The other IL's are very permissive parents, and their two boys are just out of control. But when BIL yells at their kids, they immediately listen and obey. BIL knows better than to yell at dd -we've made it very clear that we don't discipline that way. And he probably wouldn't anyway because she's such a sweet girl.

Our neighbor is a local police officer and he parents nearly this exact same way, except that they do believe in spanking, and they do it daily. Dunking his kid to make a point would be right up his alley. In fact, they don't like to let their kids play at our house because they think that we 'spoil' the kids by not spanking, yelling and putting them in time out.

The brunt of BIL's anger seems directed at their 2 yo (the one he yelled at that first night). This poor little boy is just lost as a middle child. The five year old is independent, and the one year old is an adorable, happy baby that is a joy to have around, so he gets all the attention all the time. So 2 yo is this sullen, very, very anxious little boy who almost constantly whines. I think the only way he gets enough attention is by being negative, and he'd rather be dragged across the yard by his screaming father than be ignored.

SIL is a very sweet, very attentive and concerned mother. Two yo was upset coming home in the car today because he couldn't sit next to mom, and when they got home she took him off in a room alone, rocked him, talked to him and sang songs to him for over an hour.

So, I'm rambling. But bottom line for an update is that BIL hasn't done anything grossly inappropriate since that first night. I really do think he was very embarrassed knowing that I saw him treating his son that way, which I take as a good sign. He seems to know how wrong that was.

I need to get some time alone with SIL and talk. I did get a chance to ask more about the broken arms and both occurred while the boys were with nanny and mom, respectively. So I don't think there's anything to that concern.


----------



## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:

her dh is far from a gentle parent, and no one in the family likes how he disciplines the boys.

Quote:

Constantly, every few minutes he would scream - literally scream, you could hear it right through the walls of the house - and the baby would cry. Dad would yell "Shut UP!" over and over, threaten, yell, etc.

Quote:

The dad went into this tirade and started screaming nonstop, carrying on about how the baby had 'ruined' his older brother's picture (some crayon drawing he'd done). It went on until I couldn't bear it any longer
.

Quote:

He was standing over the baby who was sitting on the floor sobbing hysterically. He was screaming "Look what you did! You ruined it! SHUT UP! I SAID SHUT UP!"

Quote:

The dad grabbed the baby's plastic sun visor that was layng close by, wadded it up into a ball, breaking it, and then hurled it straight into the baby's face - with tremendous force and anger, shouting "How does it feel? How does it feel to have your things ruined?"

Quote:

He was red faced, sweaty, and trembling with anger
.

Quote:

But I do have strong feelings about not wanting my daughter to be exposed to that kind of emotional and physical violence

Quote:

My impression at the time was that he was verging on completely out of control. I definitely was being careful about engaging him, for my own safety.

Quote:

I do worry about the safety of SIL and kids

Quote:

You can tell he gets a kick out of yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do. Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.
OP these are your own words. Quoted back to you. Listen you what YOU are saying. If this wasn't your family what would you say to this person??? HONESTLY.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Not directly with SIL. We've exchanged glances and help run interference together at times when dad's coming down on one of the boys, so I'm sure she knows that I'm concerned.
I don't think that exchanging glances is enough to really communicate your concern. If it were my sister in law and my nephews, I would make sure to have a real talk about it ASAP, definately before they leave.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
CPS isn't going to remove children for being dunked in the pool or for being yelled at and hit with a thrown hat. So being confrontational and histrionic isn't going to benefit anyone. Least of all the children, who would probably be the most upset and injured of anyone by it.

Even if CPS doesn't remove the children (and I'm not sure they should) they can send him to counselling, and they can watch to make sure nothing worse than what went on this weekend is happening. Children are often only taken away in very extreme cases (though this deppends where you live the CPS in the pacific north west seems more prone to over reacting.)

Quote:

We are all carefully modeling gentle parenting, both with our own kids and also with his kids, before he has a chance to jump in with his tyrannical methods. I'm certain that it's making an impression on him. He won't change overnight, but if it spares the children some drama and fear then it helps.
Haven't you been modeling gentle parenting for years? If it hasn't worked yet why do you think it will suddenly start working.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
By my standards and by those of MDC parents, he is. Not in the eyes of law, however. Nor even in the eyes of many mainstream American parents, to be honest.

How do you know? A social worker is in a better position to judge this. You are also assuming that you have seen the worst he is capable of.

Quote:

Calling the police? Calling CPS? And when they show up they find 3 happy, healthy looking little boys without a mark on them, playing in the backyard. Yes officer, I yelled at my son. He broke something and needed discipline. Yes sir, I'm sorry, I lost my temper and threw a hat at him. No sir, you can see that it didn't hurt him at all, it's just a made of paper and plastic. Yes officer, we were playing and I dunked my son in the pool. That's not against the law, is it, sir?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
They will see clean, polite, happy children who are obviously loved and well cared for, without any sign of abuse whatsoever. They will see a middle class, professional couple who look for all the world like Ward and June Cleaver.

They'll hear a story about everyone playing in pool, the child being rambunctious and not listening, and dad dunking him. Family members dunking each other are pretty ordinary. I was dunked plenty as a kid. I imagine so was the cop who would be here listening to some crazy lady (me) trying to convince him that this all American family man, this clean cut, handsome, polite and well spoken coach of his kid's soccer and softball teams, this boy scout leader, is an abuser and needs to go jail. Because he dunked his kid. The cops probably wouldn't make it back to the squad car before bursting into laughter.

A SW is trained to see through this.

Quote:

So I could call. And I would be extremely short sighted and foolish to do so. Because it would wreck the relationships of this family - forever. And it would do nothing except solidify this family against me and any influence that I might have had with them.
You can give it a couple of weeks and call anonimously and just say you're a neighbor and concered.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
But it would never fit the category of abuse in any court in this land.

Even if you decide what you saw him do doesn't qualify, what he does at home behind closed doors very well may.


----------



## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

blessed.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz* 
OP these are your own words. Quoted back to you. Listen you what YOU are saying. If this wasn't your family what would you say to this person??? HONESTLY.

Maybe I can have my neighbor, the cop come over and arrest him? For yelling at his kids and dunking his son one time in the swimming pool. CPS will take the kids (uh-huh), and everyone will now be so safe and happy. Maybe they can take my neighbor's kids too, while they're here.

Honestly, if you've got ideas on how to handle this that are based on reality, then spell them out. Be precise. Once again, this man hasn't broken the law. I can't have him arrested because he yells in his kids' faces or threw a hat at one. Or because he dunked his kid. It doesn't matter that he did it when he was frustrated. It doesn't matter that his kid came up sputtering and crying. He dunked his kid. That isn't against the law - anywhere. No one cares if I thought he looked scary or close to being out of control. They care if _he hurt his kid_. Period. To all of our knowlege, he never has.

So that's out. The kids stay with him. He stays married. He is the kids' dad. All of the righteous indignation you can muster in the whole world isn't going to be able to change that.

That being the case, what ideas might you have about ways that we can bring about a change in him or his family situation that will positively affect the kids? Spell them out. Be precise. I'd like to hear some ideas.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Haven't you been modeling gentle parenting for years? If it hasn't worked yet why do you think it will suddenly start working..

No, we haven't. That's likely part of the problem.

BIL and SIL have really been quite isolated from our side of the family. That's why this family reunion is so important, and why it is so critical that it go well.

This is the first time dh and I have met the two youngest boys. The family lives several states away, in the same small town as BIL's family. As I've said above, this family is extremely harsh on it's children. They are a 'children be seen and not heard' type group, who believe strongly in harsh punishments. Very religious. Very conservative. Very bigoted.

BIL stands out among his brothers for being less severe of a parent, less conservative, etc. For instance, I mentioned that they have essentially chosen not to spank, which is unheard of in his family.

I think the more BIL can be influenced by other people and ideas, the better parent he will be. Right now his wife sort of stands alone as this crazy soft hearted mother who gives her kids too much of a break. When he sees dh and I, and the other IL couple being gentle, tolerant, kind with our kids, that is normalizing that behavior in his mind.


----------



## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Blessed-once again what do you want us to say??? What would you say if you were reading your posts?? There is nothing left to say other than what has been said....everyone, including you, fears for these childrens safety, no one has truely stepped in and tried to help among the family (man to man as suggested), you don't want CPS involved, you want this reunion to go well so everyone is basically ignoring what is happening, and you now are downplaying what happened and getting mad at us who are responding to you. We aren't there...you are...what do you think is best for this family?


----------



## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisent* 
This is so so awful! That is extremely abusive. If the dad feels comfortable treating his BABY like that in someone else's house then what does he do at his own???

exactly







this is so disturbing. and unfortunately, I don't know that it can be stopped, legally, realistically, or otherwise. if that happened in my family I would be so horrified I think I would cry myself to sleep every night thinking about those kids. but I don't think cps is the answer at all, it's very unlikely they'd do much anyways and could make the situation worse. no one can stop it except him. an entire family intervention without kids present (ie, one person takes all the kids and the conversation is hosted at a different location) might at least wake their mother up. but even her power is limited, short of taking the children and disappearing (which is exactly what I would do, but she might be abused too). Clearly that's not going to happen, though.

My uncle was this "drill sergeant" type of parent, but I never saw him cross the line into pure rage. There is a difference and you know it when you see it. I think that's what your BIL doesn't get, the distinction between strictness (which I don't agree with, but isn't abusive) and pure control freak abusiveness. Knowing how he is viewed by other parents who are his peers might help him realize it's not okay, but it might also enrage him further... if this is all he knows because of the way he was raised, what really has to click is "I don't want my kids feeling the way about me that I feel about my father". Nothing's going to be fixed overnight. Maybe SIL who wants to protect the kids needs to be empowered to draw the line and I guess just talking with her and supporting her would be a start.


----------



## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

Ya know, I don't know what experience you have with CPS that makes you so sure that they wouldn't do anything about the underwater incident, which I am not going to call a dunking. A dunking is a quick push under the water, done playfully when two or more people are playing together in the water. What your BIL did was to hold a child under water for at least several seconds as a punishment.

I do have a lot of experience with CPS, as a foster parent and a former social worker. Any social worker worth a flip (and I'll be the first to admit that there are some who are not worth a flip) will consider that abuse and will do something about it.

Frankly, Blessed, after "knowing" you from your posts in the foster and adoptive parenting forum, I'm fairly baffled at your take on this whole situation.

So, you asked for what you should do. IMO, you really really should call CPS. But you have made it clear you aren't going to do that -- although, did you consider a pp's suggestion of calling in and describing the situation, without giving names? If it is not something that they will investigate, they can tell you that. If you do have a change of heart and decide to report, please talk to the other witnesses first and make sure they will back you up.

Next, I agree that a group intervention with BIL would probably just put him on the defensive. But how about w/ SIL? This family reunion is her family, right? And she is obviously a loving, caring mom? So talk to her. Let her know that many many people consider the type of "discipline" doled out by her dh to be abusive and reportable, and you don't want to see her end up losing her kids b/c of his behavior. Ask her what you can do to help.

Exchanging glances is not doing a damned thing to help her or the kids. Is she being abused as well? Is keeping her isolated from her family, and surrounded only by his abusive family part of his abuse pattern?

What if he held one of the other kids underwater as a punishment? One of the other "out of control" nephews? Or your dd? What would you do then? Please do the same for these little boys.


----------



## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

If it was me and my BIL I think the first thing I would do would be to hold a major intervetion with the people I think are most important to be there. And take it from there, but you simply cannot just go pn pretending like he did nothing wrong. Youre saying you do not want to involve CPS or cops or anything, well then you need to sit down with him and his wife and talk to him about it. He needs some help, he needs therapy, anger managment, whatever he can get. He is not going to change on his own and behavior like this NEEDS to be changed before something REALLY bad happeneds.


----------



## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz* 
Blessed-once again what do you want us to say??? What would you say if you were reading your posts?? There is nothing left to say other than what has been said....everyone, including you, fears for these childrens safety, no one has truely stepped in and tried to help among the family (man to man as suggested), you don't want CPS involved, you want this reunion to go well so everyone is basically ignoring what is happening, and you now are downplaying what happened and getting mad at us who are responding to you. We aren't there...you are...what do you think is best for this family?









:

Unsubscribing to this, blessed, because it is frustrating to see you post here for "advice" and then snarkily discount everyone as histrionic.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzannah* 







:

Unsubscribing to this, blessed, because it is frustrating to see you post here for "advice" and then snarkily discount everyone as histrionic.

Thanks for weighing in. But I do need to be selective about who I listen to here.

This is real life. This is my life. I love these people and will continue to have relationships with them. And I want what is best for them.

Getting excited and confrontational makes for good stories, but not for good familes. These children adore their father. For me to align myself against him is to align myself against them. There are other ways.

I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to you.


----------



## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

I have read this entire thread, and I'm honestly not trying to sound harsh, but blessed: If you do not do something to stop him from treating his children this way (which IS abusive from what you described) than *YOU are enabling your BIL to continue ABUSING his children.* What you describe is emotional abuse at the VERY least. I know that it is hard, but I am very surprised that you are defending your BIL's behaviour. You know that his behaviour is wrong, or you wouldn't have posted here.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaliMommie* 
I have read this entire thread, and I'm honestly not trying to sound harsh, but blessed: If you do not do something to stop him from treating his children this way (which IS abusive from what you described) than *YOU are enabling your BIL to continue ABUSING his children.*

Oh okay.

Tell me how.


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

I'm sorry blessed







I don't have any further advice.

I know from personal experience on this board that: It's so much easier for the outsiders looking in at a post to automatically know what to do do--to chastise others for not complying with what they think is acceptable. It happens all too often around here--not just to me or you...but a lot.

YOU know this situation far more than anyone reading your posts. People reading your posts can only form an opinion based on what you've posted--they don't know the full shabang, like YOU do. Follow YOUR heart and make the right decision. Don't let others make you feel rotten for not doing what _they_ find acceptable. FWIW, I know how it feels and it's not nice


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Well, to be honest, the only thing you can do is just make yourself as 'safe' a person as you can with him. That way he may consent to you having more contact with his kids. Maybe eventually visits. Some way where you can build up a good relationship with them.

Sometimes there is no way to get the kids from an immediate abusive situation. For all those that think there's some magic way, well, good on you, but it's not always so. especially if the parents fit a privledged race/religion/social/economic category...or better yet, more than one category. And if that's the case, then you walk a very fine line of pushing too far, getting no help, and getting yourself cut totally from the kids' lives.

Maybe the dad will see the error of his ways, maybe he won't. If you can't really intervene, then the most you can do is make yourself a safe person for the kids who's allowed to have a continuing close relationship with them. I'm sure that means you have to suck up a lot of crap on occasion.

But it's not an all or nothing proposition. Sometimes those safe people can be a lifeline. A kid who grows up with emotional abuse and/or physical threats is going to have to be tough to survive, but it's really nice if they can have someone they can be tender with. So I wouldn't discount being able to be that person in the future, even if you can't run in and wave your magic wand and make everything better now.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *infraread* 
handled it the best way possible at the time. Perhaps in a calm moment you can introduce the concept of child development? Because truly, a child at one is capable--physically, mentally, and emotionally-- of less than a child at 2, and a two year old doesn't really have the capacity to act maliciously, and so forth...

Yes, we've been doing this.

The 2 yo is quite large for his age, and also very verbal. He's larger than my 4.5 yo dd, for instance. It's very easy to assume that he has the capability to be quiet, sit still, help out, not get upset, etc, like an older child could. But of course he cannot. He's two.

I've brought this up repeatedly in front of BIL, talking about how the boy is acting just like dd did when she was two, and how he is just like his cousin who is also two. And talking about how tough it is with 2 yo's, how emotionally labile they are, how unreasonable. I noticed that when the child had a tantrum later on BIL was much more understanding, and commented that the child was simply tired.

I know I learned a tremendous amount from being here on MDC. I'm just so thankful that I stumbled on this site, I'm so much the better parent for it. Just seeing other mamas being patient, understanding, tolerant, forgiving, made such a difference in my own ability to parent well. I can't help but think that showing other parents these ways of thinking can help them too.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Do you honestly see no way to approach this problem aside from imploding the structure of this entire family? Quite frankly, this just seems like a very juvenile and immature thought process to me. Something that would seem sensible only to a person who was very young, very rash, and prone to make major mistakes with their life.

You're deluding yourself if you think an intervention is a good idea but calling CPS is not. I know. I was abused. Family members knew it happened. They did nothing. You can "model" all you want, but it's not going to matter. It's just a way for you to do nothing but tell yourself you're doing well.

An intervention has the very high likelihood of leading to the boys and/or their mother being beaten when they're home. A call to CPS *could* lead to that as well, but it also could lead to a case against the father and the children being protected. The chances of that happening with an intervention are slim.

You need to educate yourself on the psychology of domestic abuse because as someone who's survived it, what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. In reality, you'll probably do nothing regardless of any suggestions. I don't say that because I know you personally but because I know how abuse situations work. People cringe and wring their hands, but in the end few do anything about it. They go on about their lives and maybe say "poor kids" sometimes, but that's all. As a pp said, abusers rely on a culture of silence surrounding abuse. For adults to have seen the water-dunking incident and not said anything proves that point. Either my husband or I - and we generally are the most pacifist people you meet - would have stopped that with force if necessary. I couldn't look my husband in the eyes if he watched a child being held under water by an irate adult and stood by letting it happen. You're condoning abuse and adding to the terror these boys live with every single day.


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Blessed


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't think Blessed is unfamiliar with the psychology of childhood abuse.


----------



## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Oh okay.

Tell me how.

By knowing that he is abusing them and doing nothing.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaliMommie* 
By knowing that he is abusing them and doing nothing.

What would you like me to do?


----------



## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

As a mandated reporter I believe the right thing to do would be to call CPS. You can do this anonymously, and you can call them & describe the situation without actually reporting him to see what they say. That would be MUCH better than doing nothing. Doing nothing is protecting him. Abusers count on the culture of silence that surrounds abuse.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Blessed, I've watched this thread since inception. I believe and trust that you are making a difference. Talk with the mama. Write a note to the father, explain how you felt when your mother abandoned you. Help him to see the distance that the children are experiencing similarly. Explain the connection you have to your father who was always your recourse, your mentor and your *family*. Express how you want to create *family*, intact family, which nurtures from love.

You are doing it.

Pat


----------



## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Be specific.

Well, there have been many specific suggestions, most of which you've dismissed or discounted. I'm not sure how any specific suggestions I might make will be different, but ...

- Speak up *every time* BIL's behavior is abusive or unacceptable. The way you handled the incident in your original post was great - gentle, but straightforward.

- Get everyone else in the family on the same page. Exchanging glances is not enough. Get everyone to agree that whenever they witness BIL's actions cross the line, they will speak up and intervene.

- Make sure your nephews know that they can come to you anytime and that you WILL protect them. They're little now, but as they get older, they should know they can call you or another family member. Let them know that you will NOT betray their confidences.

- Stop diminishing what BIL does and stop thinking that it'd be OK in the "mainstream". I'm more mainstream than 90% of the people on this board, and I'm disgusted by his behavior. He didn't "dunk" his son in fun - he *held him underwater as a punishment*, after terrifying the child into coming to him. He didn't raise his voice at the baby - he screamed at him and *threw things at him*. Tell the truth to yourself and for your nephews.

I hope that's specific enough.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

If you go to talk to SIL alone, I would approach her with an offer of empathy and support, giving her the opportunity to talk. I would NOT ask her to take responsibility for her husband's actions. It seems very dysfunctional to me that she is in the position of "running interference," for these kids -- there are going to be consequences for the fact that she over-compensates for him. Maybe less severe than the consequences for letting him have his way would be, but its only the lesser of two evils.

In your shoes, I would talk directly to him. Or nominate a male family member to do so. Responsibility for his own behavior needs to be put at _his_ feet.

It might be helpful to start by acknowleging how much he has already overcome, what parts of his own upbringing he has already wrestled with and rejected. Its nothing to sneeze at.

I think you did a great job intervening when he was yelling at his son. One thing that stands out to me though, is that it should be okay to feel anger in your house -- just NOT okay to have an outburst like that, kwim? So in going back to process the incident again, I might try to empathize with the feelings he has rather than disallowing anger, but make it very clear that he is still responsible to behave in a right way toward his children regardless of what he feels.

I'm sorry that you have to deal with this at all. Its really unfair and unfortunate. I think that remaining a positive and supportive influence in the life of their family is an important role for the rest of you to play -- the modeling you do makes a real difference. As you say -- you are normalizing gentler methods.


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I am so late to the party. So what happened?

I think a good response would be to get the 2 year old away from Dad and give dad some space to cool off on his own, distract him, talk sports, whatever, give the guy a break and protect the 2 year old and keep them separate most of the rest of the day/evening.

Then, I think it's a matter of someone having a private one on one with Dad to ask him -- what's going on? To see what he's feeling and listen to where he's at emotionally with the 2 year old and life in general. I think it would be good to see if Dad can express his emotions and give him a safe place to get out whatever might be bugging him. I wouldn't lecture or anything at that point, just listen and see what he has to say about it all and his outlook on life, etc. It sounds like he has several frustrations and maybe just having someone listen to him would be a good start.

Lastly, then I'd leave it to the DH and wife to figure out. I think the Dad should get some counseling, maybe, or maybe he just needs that break and opportunity to vent out some of his feelings to get back on track.

How did it go?

ETA: I also think having a private conversation with your SIL to find out what she thinks about this is a must. Just giving her support and showing concern for her and the kids and then seeing what she says will be informative and possibly give you a better picture of the situation so you may be better prepared to help.


----------



## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

This sounds very much like my situation growing up. My father also didn't spank, he pushed and punched and broke my brother's things and slammed his head into walls and tables, but he didn't start doing that until he was older. The things you are describing with the 2yo are very similar to what my dad did, and he did it that way in order to hide what he was doing. I think you're doing a disservice to those children by not protecting them in order to make an attempt to keep their family together, but how do you think their family is fairing under the current conditions? How do you think things will go once they leave your house? How do you feel about the children staying around an abusive father and having them continue this cycle of violence with their own children when they're adults?

I, too, do not understand what you're looking for. I feel like your posts are back-peddling from your original post and it's really confusing to me.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

As you probably know blessed, you've described a classic abuse cycle...frustration build up, explosive, abusive behavior, then calm, occasionally contrite behavior. I am sure everyone looks like a happy, normal family right now, because that is how they've been trained to act during this phase of the cycle. As you watch, the cycle continues and the children will be abused again. The other classic piece is when the abuser identifies a "target" of anger, ie the two year old. It's textbook med school, psychiatry, social work, etc.

The admirable work of modeling different, gentle behavior is best done when the abused members of the family are safe. It's entirely possible that the children or wife will "pay" later for BIL feeling embarrased, put on the spot, what have you. It's why couple's counseling is ill advised in frankly abusive relationships. The person being abused is not safe and the threat becomes greater. My hope would be that someone in your group has the wherewithall to call the police if one of the kids is getting hurt and get BIL taken out of the scene. Enough already with hearing about him and how devoted a family man he is--he HURTS children. Try to bring the focus back to the ones who need it-the kids. The healing of the family unit can only be done when all members are safe, and obviously the children are in immediate danger.

As for real life suggestions-you assume too much knowledge when you say CPS wouldn't take the case. If they have been investigated before a second report will be that much more serious. But you're not doing that, so to move on. You could talk w/your SIL and offer support around domestic violence counseling. #'s are in the phone book, shelter's are available, information about restraining orders could be given. You might not think it would come to that, but you never know. Acknowledging abuse and getting out can be a long painful process, but sometimes what a woman can't do for herself, she can do for her child. You might encourage the mom to talk to the kids pedi for help and support, or a nurse practitioner. Major hospitals often have domestic violence trained personel. Offer to go with her, offer to help get resources, offer the gas $$$ if she needs it, just offer whatever she needs. She might not take you up on it now, but in 6 mos. she may. Be very careful with your discussions however-abusers are controlling and vigilent.

And, I say this with kindness blessed....I think you need some support as well. It must be awful to witness this. Trauma can be split a lot of ways and it is traumatic to see children be hurt. Our mind's natural reaction can be to shut down and not accept or downplay what we've seen. It can lead to fear, indecisiveness, you name it. Your inaction may be having the unintended consequence of keeping the cycle of violence subdued for the moment, but your gentleness won't stop it. Do you have someone to work this through with, IRL? Can you hand the knowledge to someone who is a bit more removed and can capably assess the danger to the kids--I am thinking colleague, mentor, friend? Just a thought.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

It sickens me to think of a baby being treated this way.

It sickens me more to think of family members witnessing this and being bothered but then justifying it. There is never a good excuse to yell at a baby, period. Or holding a terrified 5 year old underwater.

When exactly to you plan on calling CPS? When the kids have bruises? You need to call them NOW. That's what they are there for.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Coming into this late, but my big question here is...

Where, in all this, is your dh? This is HIS sister, right? He is male... thus the abuser is more likely going to take anything he says as more valid than anything you say. Also, siblings can get away with saying more to their own siblings than an IL would. Has your dh taken his sister aside and told her up-front that he's concerned and worried about her and the kids?

Have you talked to any of the other ILs about this? What is their take? You are assuming they don't think there's abuse because they haven't said anything... but YOU haven't said anything to them, either. They may be privately spinning their wheels trying to figure out what to do, too. Better yet, get your dh to privately talk to his mom, dad, and siblings about the situation. You need to convince him to step up to the plate. He obviously can see the problem if he told you about the pool incident.

Your SIL has been surrounded by her dh's abusive/controlling family. She hasn't had a chance to see things happen more normally in a long while. So, being around her family may be the start of a wake-up call. ESPECIALLY if they say right out "I don't like how your dh is treating you and the kids. I'm worried about you all."

Helping your SIL with damage control... removing the kids from their father's presence, distracting the dad, intervening in situations before dad has a chance to blow up... may help prevent some problems at the moment while they are with you, but will do absolutely nothing long-term, once they are back in their normal (ie, toxic) environment. It is sooo easy to slip back into old patterns. And, really, which behavior do you think is more normal for them, what you witnessed in the first night/day they arrived, or the "covering" behavior you've seen since, once BIL knew everyone disapproved?

SIL needs to know in no uncertain terms that her family views BIL's behavior as inappropriate (even if they don't think it's abusive), and that they are willing to support her in any way. I would even consider giving her "hide-away" money that BIL knows nothing about, and she can save for an emergency.

Something that hasn't been addressed by pps in regards to the suggestion to call CPS... I've been a mandated reporter, and I'm usually in favor of calling when in doubt. But, I think the situation is made pretty sticky by the fact that SIL and the kids live in a different state. From what I've heard in our state, CPS reactions vary from county to county (let alone state to state), and there isn't a very cohesive system of following up. I've heard of abusers simply moving to a different county to avoid CPS. So... if she called her local CPS, I don't even know if the report would follow them back to their state to add to the "evidence" against him. So, would she need to call the state the family lives in? Can anyone who works in the system comment on that?

Blessed, you haven't addressed any of the suggestions to call CPS without giving identifying details to find out what they recommend, or see what services they could direct you to. You just flare up at the mere mention of CPS... I think you should call to ask them to direct you to some resources. Ask them what to look for. Ask them how they would handle a case like this. Ask them how things would be coordinated with CPS in another state. That is not acting "histrionically," it's just gathering more information on which to base a decision.

Maybe if you can show some concrete evidence to dh and his family that BIL is showing classic signs of abuse patterns, then they will be more willing to act. They should also be able to give you some references to resources in your SIL's area that you can give to her privately. I'm sure there must be a pamphlet somewhere that describes the warning signs of abuse and gives a list of things that family and friends can do to help protect children in cases of suspected abuse. Find it and show it to your ILs so you can all work together on this.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Blessed, would you mind clearing some space in your PM folder, please? I promise to be nice.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Sure.

Brief update:

I called our county CPS investigator and talked to their screener. I said that dad was rough with the kids - spanking, yelling, threatening - but no one had seen hitting that would leave marks or that extended beyone open handed swats on the bottom.

I said that I had seen dad dunk the 5 yo as punishment. Frighteningly, dad tried to do this again last night. I yelled across the pool 'No! Do NOT dunk him!' So he stopped and instead ordered him out of the pool for punishment.

I described to the screener how he had commanded the child to come to him. The child was shaking and crying with fear. When he got there dad pushed him under the water for a few seconds, and the boy was choking and crying when he came up. I told her that I had seen him do this on more than one occasion.

She had lots of questions about mom - how she reacted, was she protective, how did she discipline. Ultimately, she said that there wasn't grounds for an investigation. She said that as a general rule they were aggressive about investigating situations in which a protective parent was not in the home. So if mom wasn't in the picture, this might or might not warrant an investigation, based on other contributing factors (signs of neglect etc, none of which exist here). She said this appeared to be a case of well cared for children who were not abused, but who simply had one of two parents who lacked good parenting skills.

She recommended parenting classes, family discussions etc as primary intervention.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm glad you called to get some info. I agree that reporting them wouldn't do diddly.

I do think that both you and your dh and any other concerned family members need to be vocal about this. You all need to make it crystal clear that dad's behavior is in NO way appropriate or acceptable. Especially make sure that sil hears this.

Good luck. Family situations can be so difficult.

-Angela


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Since this family does not, as far as I can tell, live close to you, please at least reach out to give someone in their home community a heads up to watch the situation. If not CPS, a school principal, a pastor (that would be a good source if available), the children's pediatrician... Someone who sees them on a regular basis. You don't have to say "the kids are abused", you can say "I saw some things that caused me concern while they were visiting and I'd breath easier if I knew someone were watching the situation in case things escalate."

Can you get them to take a parenting class in their home community? DH and I (and our kid's guardians) all did this when DS was little and it really helped us all be on the same page. In this family's case, it might help him see that there are alternatives and provide some good info on child development. Even if you lie and say you took such a class as it was so helpful, yadda yadda, would they maybe consider it?


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Good for you blessed for calling! It is so frustrating that, as you predicted, the screener "screened out" the situation. Document, document, because the screener is the type of idiot who enables abusive situations to continue and ultimately end up in tragedy. I have personally gone over the head of the screeners to supervisors to press a case, and have been clear about documentation all around if I felt a kid was really in trouble. I almost always did this in conjunction with a kids pediatrician.

The abuse continues with a second potential "dunking"--mom seems unavailable to keep the kids safe. Please consider a call to the kids pedi for a heads up. It is far better to be safe than sorry, and you don't have to hold all of this knowledge yourself.

And again, the weight of this seems to be falling on you, which must just be so difficult.


----------



## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I'm glad you called. If for no other reason than you don't have to feel guilty that you never called.

And I'm really glad that you stood up to BIL and told him NOT to dunk that poor kid. If it were me (and thank goodness its not) I would confront him and his wife about dunking and explain that it is DANGEROUS and MEAN and he better never do it again. I would tell him that if he were my husband and he did that to one of my kids, he would never see that child again, ever. I'm not saying this is the way to go, but I do think the point needs to be made to him one way or another. That's just what I would do with my hot temper and big mouth.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
The abuse continues with a second potential "dunking"....

This is what jprompted me to call.

It was so disturbing. I didn't see the first dunking. On this occasion the boy purposefully tried to put pool water in his dad's drink, which was on the edge of the pool. Dad saw it, grabbed him and tried to push his head underwater. They were in shallow water that the boy could touch bottom on, so dad couldn't quite overcome the boy's push back, and he was able to slip out from under his hand. That's when I yelled to stop.

Dad grabbed the boy around the waist and held him tightly in anger. Everyone had stopped and all of us were staring at him. You could tell he was just fighting his anger and trying to keep control. The boy was trembling in fear and looking at his mother. He started saying 'Mama...mama...mama.." in this quivering, pleading voice. You could just see that this was a familiar situation for them.

Mom started talking to the boy, chiding him for what he'd done in this quiet, sensible voice that seemed like it was probably more for dad's benefit than anyones. Dad then shoved the boy out of the pool and told him to go sit in time out.

He went off and cried for several minutes. Then came over and stood very meekly in front of his dad. I was sitting nearby at this point or I couldn't have heard because he was talking so softly. He said that dad had hurt his feelings. Dad demanded loudly "Oh and how did I hurt YOUR feelings?" Boy said in this anguished voice 'because you tried to hurt me daddy'. Dad laughed and said 'you were mean to me, so I was mean to you.'

It's making me tearful to write this and I have company to tend to. More later.


----------



## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

Blessed I am so sorry you are having to bear witness to this abuse. I understand how hard it is to come to a decision to call CPS, only to have them tell you that if there is a protective parent in the home, they will do nothing.

I bet your SIL has played the scenario of leaving him out in her head and has also come away with the conclusion that noone would grant her custody over a husband that appears perfect in public. It's a hard, hard place to be and so very easy for people on the outside to say "just leave". I bet your SIL has weighed the risks of staying and being able to run interference for her children against the risk of leaving and possibly losing custody of her children and therefore being unable to protect them at all.

I think the best you can do is to take your SIL aside before she leaves and tell her that if she needs you, you are there. Any time, any place. Give her a key to your house. Tell her she is welcome to show up with kids in tow whenever, if ever, she needs to, no questions, no judgments. Then, I would write down notes about all the interactions you personally witnessed during the BIL stay with you. Put them in a safe place in case they are ever needed.


----------



## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

This is so sad. Maybe you could print out this thread and have your SIL read it.

I still think you need to talk about this and somehow let BIL know in no uncertain terms that everyone there thinks what he is doing is awful. Otherwise, he may just think that you are the weird one of the group and that everyone agrees with him and are just trying to be polite in your home.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Sorry, I don't agree with Blessed being responsible for telling the BIL that he is out of line. There are other adults present, and this kind of stress needs to be shared. On top of that, anything that feels confrontational to the dad may make the children less safe, as it may trigger in him a need for retaliation. He said it himself "You were mean to me, so I was mean to you". It's not a hidden agenda.

Blessed you are walking an exquisitely fine line here. I don't use the term vicarious traumatization lightly here-this is awful stuff, and you are managing, it seems, to be there for your family, advocate for for children at risk, and model your own values. Is anyone supporting you?


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
On top of that, anything that feels confrontational to the dad may make the children less safe, as it may trigger in him a need for retaliation..

I am worried about this.

Yesterday we had gone on a long steep hike, about a mile in and a mile back. Dad insisted that the 2 yo walk. Pretty soon he was exhausted, hungry, past his nap time, and was just melting down. Dad screamed in his face and threatened to spank him if he didn't go.

Other SIL (not his wife) and I went over and tried to pick him up. Dad wouldn't let us, saying that he was just 'trying to get his own way' and 'being stubborn'. Other SIL pointed out that her dh was carrying their 2 yo and said he would act the same way if they tried to make him walk. I told BIL that dd never could have made that hike at age 2, and in fact I was sure we'd be carrying her as well before too much longer.

Other SIL went over and tried to talk to SIL, who was on the verge of crying. She was agreeing that the baby was having a hard time because he'd missed his nap, etc, but stopped short of saying that it was wrong for her dh to expect him to walk (BIL was within hearing distance). At that point I just firmly said don't worry, I'll carry him, it's no big deal, he's upset, blah blah blah, picked up the 2 yo and walked away before BIL could really do anything. Of course the baby was exhausted and fell asleep in my arms before I'd gone 100 feet. All of the kids, including my 4.5 yo ended up needing to be carried by the time we finished.

Later on the trail BIL was criticizing everything that the 5 yo did, and ended up spanking him in front of a big crowd of people. Then when we stopped for lunch BIL got mad at 2 yo for getting out of his chair, swatted him, and dragged him over to a corner of the room. He made him stand in the corner with his nose pressed against the wall. Of course everyone in the restaurant was just horrifed.

I felt like he might have been being harder on the boys because of the way we had challenged his parenting earlier on. Like he was showing everyone that he was going to reinstate his role as dictator over the kids. It seemed almost like we'd actually made things worse for the kids.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm so sorry CPS was unwilling to help in this awful situation. I don't think they should have just taken the kids away, but court ordered anger management classes and such would be a good idea. Definitely let SIL know that if she is mostly staying for financial reasons, that she has a place in your home if she and the boys need it.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yesterday we had gone on a long steep hike, about a mile in and a mile back. Dad insisted that the 2 yo walk. Pretty soon he was exhausted, hungry, past his nap time, and was just melting down. Dad screamed in his face and threatened to spank him if he didn't go.

[snip]

Later on the trail BIL was criticizing everything that the 5 yo did, and ended up spanking him in front of a big crowd of people. Then when we stopped for lunch BIL got mad at 2 yo for getting out of his chair, swatted him, and dragged him over to a corner of the room. He made him stand in the corner with his nose pressed against the wall. Of course everyone in the restaurant was just horrifed.

So much for them not spanking...

This time though, I think everyone needs to take a little responsibility for the situation. I think everyone (MDC in general) here agrees that prevention is a large part of the battle with toddlers, yet your group took several small children on a strenous hike, during nap time, and then expected them to behave in a restaurant!?!?!?

One concrete, easy, non-confrontational thing you can do for the remainder of this event is to set up situations that the children can succeed in. This was bound to fail. Naps, meal schedules, healthy but child-friendly food, activities that are child-friendly (or two groups doing two activities) would seem key to everyone getting through your re-union with a minimum of problems.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

Later on the trail BIL was criticizing everything that the 5 yo did, and ended up spanking him in front of a big crowd of people. Then when we stopped for lunch BIL got mad at 2 yo for getting out of his chair, swatted him, and dragged him over to a corner of the room. He made him stand in the corner with his nose pressed against the wall. Of course everyone in the restaurant was just horrifed.

I felt like he might have been being harder on the boys because of the way we had challenged his parenting earlier on. Like he was showing everyone that he was going to reinstate his role as dictator over the kids. It seemed almost like we'd actually made things worse for the kids.

call CPS and pretend to be an anonymous person who saw a man hitting his child in a public place and then give them BIL's description and license plate number.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

None of this behavior is illegal, or abnormal in our society. It is condoned and conventional parenting.

I too was that child.

Change happens slowly, from within.

I would step in and say "Please do not hit that child. Hitting hurts." I have. It makes a difference, to the child. Confrontation leads to escalation, ime. Connection leads to compassion. I always have the choice to choose the peaceful path.

Pat


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Okay-trust your gut here. If you feel that BIL is feeling threatened, and showing his control by becoming increasingly abusive to the kids, get into safety mode. As pp said, activites that will be child-centered, low stress, etc. A routine that allows for periods of rest. It is sounding like BIL has the whole group terrorized, which is not surprising. Personally, I would watch the alcohol consumption-it could add fuel to the fire.

I don't know how long this get together is for, but you guys need a plan. The children are being abused in front of you. Mom is unable to prevent or stop the behavior. How many of you are there? You might think of getting your group together, getting really honest about what is happening, and together decide how you will manage the rest of the vacation together. Get together on the low stress piece, on the primary need for safety for the kids. It would be most helpful if everyone was together in their awarness of what is going on, and a plan for how to deal with it. Where are the men? Sorry to sound sexist, but where is another guy to say-hey buddy, you can't do that?

I get the sense that it would feel better if the family didn't end up leaving the gathering in crisis. I am not sure if you can prevent this, in fact I think it's beyond your control. Just like the 2 y/o being out of his element, stressed, etc., your BIL is in the same place. He may be slowly simmering to a boil because he is completely out of his element, he doesn't have total control and he is stressed. It's potentially dangerous. Know what you will do in advance when the situation reaches the boiling point-a plan is better than a reaction. For me, I would have called the police when the child was dunked under water. What is the end point for you and your family?

And know that someone needs to be told who is in a posistion to help these kids.

Oh, and be aware of how scary it is for children to see other children being abused, especially in a sadistic way, like standing in front of a group facing the wall. I don't know what the other children are seeing, but ptentially it's quite scary-adults are supposed to protect kids right? Are the children getting that mesasage?


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. We have non-gentle family members (who really like the nose in the corner thing...







:














but nothing to this extent.

Please, no matter what else you do, record all you've seen. Journal it. Write it down. Date it. Include as much detail as you can.

It may be needed in the future.

-Angela


----------



## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

blessed, OMG, I'm so sorry you're having to witness this. I wish I had some good advice but I have no clue what to tell you to do. I hope you are getting some support for yourself - having to watch all of what you described would absolutley traumatize me, I'm sure.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

The 2 yo was acting like a two year old - whiney, asking for things and then not wanting them. Dad took him off to bed and was yelling at him to 'shut up'. Then he slapped his face. Other SIL saw it happen (I was on the other side of the house putting dd down) and she went out to talk to SIL.

They had kind of a blow up, arguing in whispered voices. Other SIL was saying that it was inappropriate how BIL treated the boys and that she was concerned. SIL was saying how difficult the 2 yo is to cope with (he really is an exceptionally anxious and whiney child - gee, imagine that). SIL got kind of teary and said that she couldn't take care of him all the time, sometimes she had to turn him over to BIL because she just couldn't take any more.

The 2 yo was crying in the room (with dad), so SIL broke off to go get him at this point. She cuddled him and sang him to sleep.

Later I asked SIL if everything was okay. She was kind of defensive and said that when she went to get 2 yo he was snuggled in his dad's arms, and that of course everything was okay.

It's really hard. There's just never a good time to talk. There are always kids or spouses coming and going, lots of interruptions. And trying to get SIL alone is tough because that essentially leave the kids with dad. The ILs might be here too, but if dad is present, he's in charge.

But things seem to be slowly coming to a head of sorts.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Well, it turns out that I didn't quite have the story right last night.

It was actually 5 yo nephew that saw the incident with the 2 yo, not his mother. He then went and asked his mother, other SIL, about why BIL slapped the baby's face, which prompted her to go confront SIL. This morning SIL is saying that it never happened that way, and nephew isn't really mature or mentally with it enough that any of us are confident about what he says or what he saw. While none of us would doubt that BIL slapped the baby, nephew is sort of a fantastical thinker who likes to fabricate things, so if BIL/SIL are denying it we are probably stuck with that. Of course the baby doesn't have a mark on him.

I think that's unfortunate because it took some of wind out of the sails of the whole encounter between the SILs. BIL/SIL's stance is that nothing ever happened, so there's no issue. It's a lot harder to get them to step back and look at the broader picture now.


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Can you send the guys out to do some guy things, for a whole day, like I don't know, just get them off for a few hours to have fun, play golf, whatever...., keep the women and kids together, and then find some time to offer SIL support? Get one of your husbands to rally the men to some kind of activity that gives you at least a few hours if not a whole day.

I think your SIL needs a break from him and some safe space if she wants to share without feeling intimidated or afraid.


----------



## U2can (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
She may be an oustanding mother, but she is watching her children be abused without defending them.









This is not an outstanding mother, she's not protecting her children! Take it from someone who was that baby & 5 year old child, let me tell you that the kids already know that their mother doesn't care enough to keep them safe, and that no one else does either. Those children will spend their lives watching other children be loved and treated as if they are special & precious people, while they themselves will always question what is wrong with them, why NO ONE cares what happens to them.

I often wonder how much different our lives would have been had someone in the extended family stepped in to protect us.

Blessed - you are showing your nephews that you care each time you step in. Letting them know they do matter. Please continue to protect those children, and understand that living in a household of fear, is no family life. Trust me when I tell you that even on days that everything seems to be going well, they're wondering when the ugly will start again & who/what will be the trigger


----------



## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Can you send the guys out to do some guy things, for a whole day, like I don't know, just get them off for a few hours to have fun, play golf, whatever...., keep the women and kids together, and then find some time to offer SIL support? Get one of your husbands to rally the men to some kind of activity that gives you at least a few hours if not a whole day.

I think your SIL needs a break from him and some safe space if she wants to share without feeling intimidated or afraid.


I think this is a great idea.

Blessed, I am sorry if I seemed harsh in my last response. Good for you for intervening. That is really incredibly brave.

And thank you for calling the screener. That really just sucks that they screened it out. I really didn't think they would. I really don't think they would here.

But now you know, and you know you tried that route.

I want to echo everything that has been said wrt being a strong supportive witness for the nephews and for SIL. There has been much documentation of how that can help children living in traumatic environments.

I'm so sorry your family is witnessing this. How is your dd holding up? I know how sensitive she is.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Blessed, how is the day going?


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *U2can* 
Those children will spend their lives watching other children be loved and treated as if they are special & precious people, while they themselves will always question what is wrong with them, why NO ONE cares what happens to them..

fNo this is really not accurate at all. I think you're describing your own home life, but that's not how this home is.

These children are all cuddled, snuggled sung to, played with throughout every day. By BOTH parents. BIL is really exceptionally affectionate and loving with the boys - more than most other fathers I've seen. More than my own dh is with our daughter. Yet, it's interlaced with this very strict discipline and constant intimidation.

It really does make me think of the dynamics between an abusive male and his female partner, which are often some of the most passionate and romantic that there are. During the good times, there are the highest of the highs - with everyone full of excitement and love for each other. And then there are the lowest of the lows, where there are depths of shame and cruelty that are difficult to comprehend. And it's a cycle that just continually repeats itself until some tragedy occurs.

I'm really formulating this theory that all of this is a bizarre pattern that BIL probably learned within the dynamics of his own family growing up. As I mentioned, his father was exceptionally cruel, yet his family is very, very close - all living near each other and spending lots of time together.

So typical to how it's been, this morning is fine, full of laughing, playing children and affectionate parents. Until BIL starts to hone in on one of the boys and everything turns to crap. Cycle, rinse, repeat.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
No this is really not accurate at all. I think you're describing your own home life, but that's not how this home is.

These children are all cuddled, snuggled sung to, played with throughout every day. By BOTH parents. BIL is really exceptionally affectionate and loving with the boys - more than most other fathers I've seen. More than my own dh is with our daughter. Yet, it's interlaced with this very strict discipline and constant intimidation.

This is how our home was as well, and we still felt like the poster you quoted. Being treated well between bouts of abused doesn't make you any less abused. The children eventually realize the "kindness" is to make up for the abuse, and that taints it.


----------



## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
This is how our home was as well, and we still felt like the poster you quoted. Being treated well between bouts of abused doesn't make you any less abused. The children eventually realize the "kindness" is to make up for the abuse, and that taints it.

Not only that, when you live with an explosive parent, you are always waiting for them to go off. You cannot relax and enjoy the affection fully, you must keep one eye on everything to make sure that it is perfect, and that nothing is going wrong. You cannot let your defenses down.


----------



## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
This is how our home was as well, and we still felt like the poster you quoted. Being treated well between bouts of abused doesn't make you any less abused. The children eventually realize the "kindness" is to make up for the abuse, and that taints it.

And then for the rest of their lives have major trust issues, anxiety, and a feeling of displacement and instability.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

There's definitely a weirdness. Like the incident I described in which the 5yo put pool water in his dad's drink. It wasn't done as a joke, or in play. He was quietly sneeking and doing it, and just happened to be caught. For all I know, he'd been doing it all along. Very strange. Or not so strange given the circumstances, I guess. But I could never imagine dd doing something like that.

Or like BIL asked - no, told - the 5 yo to hand him his hat. 5 yo kind of tossed it at him and it didn't land anywhere near, then he turned his back and walked away, almost contemptuously. BIL kind of sucked in his breath and was obviously pissed, but let it go and walked over to get his hat. Again, I just couldn't imagine dd acting that way to me. There was so much anger and so much desire to hurt or insult. Just such a strange dynamic between parent and child.


----------



## U2can (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
This is how our home was as well, and we still felt like the poster you quoted. Being treated well between bouts of abused doesn't make you any less abused. The children eventually realize the "kindness" is to make up for the abuse, and that taints it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
Not only that, when you live with an explosive parent, you are always waiting for them to go off. You cannot relax and enjoy the affection fully, you must keep one eye on everything to make sure that it is perfect, and that nothing is going wrong. You cannot let your defenses down.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *brenda003* 
And then for the rest of their lives have major trust issues, anxiety, and a feeling of displacement and instability.









:

The worst? Many of the children disregarded in this way will grow to treat their own children the same way. For those of us that hope for something better, the struggle is indescribable. Someone needs to break that cycle ASAP not 3 generations from now.

The child acting out? Understandable given the situation as it's been presented, I'm just surprised that he's not hurting the little one in his frustration as that's what's being modeled to him.


----------



## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

And thank you for calling the screener. That really just sucks that they screened it out. I really didn't think they would. I really don't think they would here.
I'm not picking on you, but see, my experience has been the polar opposite and I'm always stunned by the amount of people who believe CPS is The Answer. They are frequently understaffed, overworked, and dealing with HORRIFIC cases that truly skew the perception of what is/is not abuse. I'm also not sure what people think CPS is going to do- remove all of the children, very likely separate them and place them in foster care? Is that a good goal?

I've watched police officers come into a home with two parents spun completely out of control on meth, hallucinating, making paranoid accusations, screaming and slamming doors, and say to the child who was SAFE in her adult brother's house next door, "Don't you want to go back next door with your mom and dad?" and walk her back into the lion's den and leave her. Then when CPS finally got around to showing up three days later, all they did is ask a few smiling questions and happily left. After a police report and two calls from concerned friends/family members.

There is no magic bullet. I'm not ragging on CPS or foster care in general. Lots of times it truly is the only solution in an abusive situation. I just don't know what the answer is here but I wanted to address that what happened with the screener is neither unusual nor surprising, and the frustration towards the OP for not insisting on police/CPS intervention is a little misplaced.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
I'm always stunned by the amount of people who believe CPS is The Answer. They are frequently understaffed, overworked, and dealing with HORRIFIC cases that truly skew the perception of what is/is not abuse..

Yes, exactly.

It's not that any of us feel that these kids aren't suffering from certain types of abuse. We all agree that they are. But it was patently obvious to me that CPS would never consider this type of stuff as worthy of their attention.

These kids are well fed, well dressed, in good schools, going to church on sunday, living in a two parent home, and without a mark on them. Form their perception, what's to complain about?


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I am sorry you are dealing with this, it must be hard to watch. I wish there really was a magic way to make it better, but I must say you are doing much better than most of us would if we were in this situation. It is easy to have all the answers from behind a keyboard then it is when you are IN the situation.

I hope someone can get through to the dad before it is too late.


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)




----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
There's definitely a weirdness. Like the incident I described in which the 5yo put pool water in his dad's drink. It wasn't done as a joke, or in play. He was quietly sneeking and doing it, and just happened to be caught. For all I know, he'd been doing it all along. Very strange. Or not so strange given the circumstances, I guess. But I could never imagine dd doing something like that.

Or like BIL asked - no, told - the 5 yo to hand him his hat. 5 yo kind of tossed it at him and it didn't land anywhere near, then he turned his back and walked away, almost contemptuously. BIL kind of sucked in his breath and was obviously pissed, but let it go and walked over to get his hat. Again, I just couldn't imagine dd acting that way to me. There was so much anger and so much desire to hurt or insult. Just such a strange dynamic between parent and child.

Oldest brother is playing the role of protector. By doing things that brings the anger on him he defuses and distracts dad slightly for next time middle brother gets in trouble.


----------



## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

What a situation. What's not clear to me though, is the mentality of the rest of the extended family here. Has there even been a discussion among the wider group? Is everyone in accord that what BIL is doing is wrong and must stop? Or are there some in the extended family who are looking the other way because they think it's his right as a parent.

It seems to me that if everyone is on the same page about this, it really is time for the menfolk to take BIL aside for a come to Jesus talk. And if they're not in agreement, it's time for you, Blessed, to have a talk with the rest of the family. Maybe this happened and I missed it - long thread!


----------



## sapientia (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Oldest brother is playing the role of protector. By doing things that brings the anger on him he defuses and distracts dad slightly for next time middle brother gets in trouble.

This is exactly what I did to keep the heat off my younger brother. Also, it doesn't surprise me for the older brother to 'act out' a bit as I did as well(lack of respect and pool water in the drink)-to get some measure of...I don't know...strange idea of revenge out of disrespect and suppressed anger. It sucks to feel powerless and most people will react to that.

What's funny is that there will be shock at why a child with a childhood like this will have anger problems or be a 'problem teen' who dresses funny/uses drugs/acts out-god forbid that be the way it happens but all too often it does. I know. many of us on this board know from our own lives and we all want to make sure it doesn't happen to others. That's why the emotion. Reading this thread is like watching my childhood-down to the pool dunking...it just plain hurts to remember.

This reminds me too much of my childhood-when dad was fine, the world was thrilled cause dad wasn't screeching and hitting...we seemed picture perfect, but let something set him or mom off and it was horrible and to this day I have trust and anxiety issues and after someone is kind to me I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Just cause there is a moment without the abuse doesn't mean it's not abuse with long term effects. Abusers aren't always 24/7, and abusers can be great monetary providers and seem to love their family, and yes, there were times I smiled at my dad and acted like everything was great-cause lord knows I wanted it to be...and when I was so powerless I had some measure of power in small revenges and always protecting my brother.
From a childhood OH SO like the one being described here, I am blessed with anxiety, distrust and anger in me that is unreal.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Yeah, I think it's multifactorial.

All their kids are almost compulsive misbehavors. You could tell them not to pick up a turd and eat it, and the first thing they would do is dive for it and fight to put it in their mouths. It's really weird.

I thought maybe they've just been so conditioned to think of themselves as 'bad' that they just presume that it's the way they're supposed to act. Or maybe it's that the constant pattern in their world is to do as much as you can right up to the point of being smacked. I don't know.


----------



## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

sapientia


----------



## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Being discipline in extreme ways for any little thing like this, they probably have no concept of what is a little bit wrong, a lot wrong and what is acceptable. Plus, no matter how much they might hate their lives, that is what they know and will strive to emulate. If their dad is seen by other people as a good dad and is constantly trying to provoke fights, the kids will do the same.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
Being discipline in extreme ways for any little thing like this, they probably have no concept of what is a little bit wrong, a lot wrong and what is acceptable..

Yes. They get screamed at and physically assaulted for things that wouldn't even warrant a raised eyebrow if dh or I saw dd doing the same thing. Like accidentally spilling a drink, for instance.


----------



## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Given the cycling (abuse cycle, as you already were able to articulate), there may also be a level of misbehaving to trigger the abuse. It is a lot harder waiting for it, never knowing when it is going to come...especially when you know there is the calm that comes afterward.

I was so relieved when you finally called CPS. Not that it resulted in anything, but before that point in time, it seemed like you were continually in denial that he was abusing the children. Yes, bad parenting, no not gentle discipline...but he is a loving father, etc. etc. Heck, you were calling a child having his head held under water as punishment, "dunking." WOW! Denial like that isn't uncommon in abuse situations, and I am really relieved you are past that.

By the way, did you call CPS in his county or yours? If you called in yours, I think you need to go back and call in his. Even though the abuse is taking place apparently out of his county at this moment, his home CPS will have a record of previous investigations and will have better information about whether this call should be screened in or out. You know I am sure from our discussions over on the Foster and Adoptive parenting board that I am a mandatory reporter. I can tell you from experience that it does make a difference to call the parent's own county's reporting system. I know it was hard for you to call in the first place, and I can't imagine what your reaction will be to me saying you may need to go back and do it again (if you called your own CPS, not his). But there you have it.

Once you've done that, _then_ you can know that you have done all you could on that end-- that you did your best to stop the abuse legally. At that point, I would agree that your best bet is to talk with your SIL, offering support and letting her know that you are concerned but also giving her space to come out of her own degree of denial. Google recommendations for supporting a woman who is being abused by her husband (domestic violence). Sounds like you may have to treat your relationship with the SIL similarly.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I was so relieved when you finally called CPS. Not that it resulted in anything, but before that point in time, it seemed like you were continually in denial that he was abusing the children. Yes, bad parenting, no not gentle discipline...but he is a loving father, etc. etc. Heck, you were calling a child having his head held under water as punishment, "dunking." WOW! Denial like that isn't uncommon in abuse situations, and I am really relieved you are past that..

Oh good god.

I've been completely consistent throughout the entire thread. I said that the children were being abused "by my standard and everyone else's on MDC, but not under the eyes of the law" before the CPS call. I said "It's not that any of us feel that these kids aren't suffering from certain types of abuse. We all agree that they are. But it was patently obvious to me that CPS would never consider this type of stuff as worthy of their attention" after the CPS call.

I still say that (and the CPS worker confirmed) dunking for punishment is called IN THE EYES OF THE LAW 'dunking', and is not against the law unless the child's life is in danger.

I never said, and still don't say, that it is right, tolerable, justifiable or anything else. I just don't have my head in magical thinking land where I believe I have powers that I don't really possess.

Quote:

By the way, did you call CPS in his county or yours? If you called in yours, I think you need to go back and call in his...I can tell you from experience that it does make a difference to call the parent's own county's reporting system..
The CPS screener didn't know what county this guys lives in when she decided not to investigate. You're the one that's in denial, sierra. This guy is simply not breaking the law.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Oh good god.

I've been completely consistent throughout the entire thread. I said that the children were being abused "by my standard and everyone else's on MDC, but not under the eyes of the law" before the CPS call. I said "It's not that any of us feel that these kids aren't suffering from certain types of abuse. We all agree that they are. But it was patently obvious to me that CPS would never consider this type of stuff as worthy of their attention" after the CPS call.

I still say that (and the CPS worker confirmed) dunking for punishment is called IN THE EYES OF THE LAW 'dunking', and is not against the law unless the child's life is in danger.

I never said, and still don't say, that it is right, tolerable, justifiable or anything else. I just don't have my head in magical thinking land where I believe I have powers that I don't really possess.The CPS screener didn't know what county this guys lives in when she decided not to investigate. You're the one that's in denial, sierra. This guy is simply not breaking the law.


When you originally posted the pool incident you did not make it seem like a dunking, you said he held him under the water until he came up choking and crying. Of course cps isn't going to do anything if you said he was dunked, but if you tell them that twice he has attempted to punish the child by holding his head under the water, I'm would be surprised if they didn't consider that abuse. When you called did you mention that they have already been investigated by cps before?


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
When you originally posted the pool incident you did not make it seem like a dunking, you said he held him under the water until he came up choking and crying. Of course cps isn't going to do anything if you said he was dunked, but if you tell them that twice he has attempted to punish the child by holding his head under the water, I'm would be surprised if they didn't consider that abuse. When you called did you mention that they have already been investigated by cps before?

Here's my original description of the incident:
_Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool._
Here's my description to the CPS worker:
_I described to the screener how he had commanded the child to come to him. The child was shaking and crying with fear. When he got there dad pushed him under the water for a few seconds, and the boy was choking and crying when he came up. I told her that I had seen him do this on more than one occasion._
Trust me, I left nothing out.

Also, you can see for yourself that my description of the event never changed from the beginning of the thread to the end. So you are wrong that I 'didn't make it seem' like what it was. I've been completely consistent.


----------



## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Oh good god.

I've been completely consistent throughout the entire thread. I said that the children were being abused "by my standard and everyone else's on MDC, but not under the eyes of the law" before the CPS call. I said "It's not that any of us feel that these kids aren't suffering from certain types of abuse. We all agree that they are. But it was patently obvious to me that CPS would never consider this type of stuff as worthy of their attention" after the CPS call.

Blessed, you have been less consistent than that. You would say things about what a wonderful father he is, and that he just is not into gentle discipline. Those were your words. They take abuse and frame it in the context of discipline style. Abuse isn't discipline. It is just abuse. You seemed on one hand to be in agreement that it was abuse, but on the other hand-- as would be the case with denial-- you seemed on some level not to be able to face that (that's where all the "he's a great dad, just a little rough and strict" type talk came in).

Whatever the case, if you treat abuse as a family dynamic that simply needs to be dealt with as such, I do think that is one sign of denial. Usually abuse can't be treated as just one more family dynamic. It has a very unique cycle and pattern and generally requires a greater level and different kind of intervention, not always-- but often-- outside help.

Quote:

I still say that (and the CPS worker confirmed) dunking for punishment is called IN THE EYES OF THE LAW 'dunking', and is not against the law unless the child's life is in danger.
Generally there are state specific regulations that determine what will be identified as abuse. As you mention, for example, many states require that marks are left after 30 minutes if a child has been beaten or hit. However, most states do take into account cumulative information, and also, sometimes screeners upon request will take into account detrimental emotional effects and will be willing to start a lower level intervention for an ongoing pattern such as mentioned here. I still think you need to make sure his own county is aware of the things going on in the home, if you have not already. I stick by my recommendation.

Quote:

I never said, and still don't say, that it is right, tolerable, justifiable or anything else. I just don't have my head in magical thinking land where I believe I have powers that I don't really possess.
Nor do I. Look, I am a reasonable person who has reported very real abuse. Some of that was screened in, some screened out, but I was always thanked for reporting, especially when there had been prior investigations but more information was needed.

I have had enough foster children in my home to know the horrors some of them endured before a CPS worker began to even investigate (let alone provide family supports, anger mangagement classes, etc....and then finally, when all else failed, remove the child from the abusive parents care while the parent was given opportunity and additional resources to correct the situation).

Quote:

The CPS screener didn't know what county this guys lives in when she decided not to investigate.
That's really my point. If you are calling your BIL's home county, and they know it is his home county, and they know there is a possibility of prior CPS involvement, they will most likely look for prior investigations before making a decision.

Without that information they are more likely to screen the call out.

Quote:

If you You're the one that's in denial, sierra.
Okay.

You can hurl that at me like it is an insult, Blessed, but it isn't insulting. Denial is a normal and necessary human response to witnessing something abhorent.

The neurological system can't take in lots of overwhelming stimuli at once, so it has to process it slowly. Denial is a function of that. It isn't bad. It just is. It would be surprising if you had witnessed the things you witnessed without any denial.

And likewise, watching this thread develop has been difficult for reasons similar/related (though clearly diffused) to reasons it is hard for you to watch what is going on in your family. It is hard to watch something abhorent going on and to feel so powerless and desperate. Not being able to help, at times because you push us away and even retaliate against/fight our best suggestions is hard work.

We do it because we care. All of us, you because you care about your family-- your precious nephews in particular-- and us because we care about children in general and can't stand the thought of any child suffering.

Denial makes sense. It isn't an insult.


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Blessed.

I believe you have been consistent, and your really trying to do good with a bad situation. Just keep doing your best.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
You would say things about what a wonderful father he is, and that he just is not into gentle discipline..

Show me where I contradict this. He is a wonderful father. His kids adore him. He spends more direct, one on one time with his kids than any father I've ever seen. He has way more interest in spending time with his kids than dh ever has.

He cuddles them, sings to them, plays with them, teaches them, feeds them, bathes them, laughs with them. He spends virtually every moment of his free time with his kids. He's a great dad.

A great dad who's dealing with anger problem.

Those things are not mutually exclusive.

And I never once said "he just is not into gentle discipline". I said that he was abusive by my standards and yours. But not by the justice systems. And that I could not have the man arrested for not believing in gentle discipline.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Things are winding down; tomorrow is departure day. There haven't been any major blow ups, but just the more minor yells, arm jerks, mean tempered time outs.

Interestingly, and disturbingly, I've noticed a counter effect in which BILs modeling of his aggressive parenting actually seems to be affecting how the rest of us parent. For instance, grandfather has always been a gentle parent - he was beaten as a child and vowed never to raise his children with the kind of abuse he saw. Yet, yesterday he angrily yelled at 5 yo nephew and pulled him roughly toward him. None of us had seen him act that way before. Dh took him aside and talked to him. He was very contrite, very apologetic, almost surprised at his own behavior.

The gentle ILs also have been raising their voices, speaking with impatience and exasperation. Not a big thing, but different than their usual.

Dh made dd cry by telling her that she was acting like a baby. Not his style, usually. She spent the rest of the afternoon in a crying jag, such as she hasn't done since she was a toddler. Nothing would soothe her. She kept saying "I want to go home", but of course she was home. I asked her 'do you mean our quiet home with just you and me and daddy?' and she sobbed 'yes'.

I'm ready to have our house back.


----------



## CupcakeMagee (Jun 21, 2007)

Quote:

His kids adore him.
Except when they're acting out their anger towards him for the way he treats them in a passive-aggressive manner such as this...

Quote:

the 5yo put pool water in his dad's drink. It wasn't done as a joke, or in play. He was quietly sneeking and doing it, and just happened to be caught.
It's all well and good to say this is a father who is struggling with anger _(in fact I'm sure there are many people who would find your caring level of forgiveness towards him noble)_ and that these kids are acting "weird," but what's going on there isn't weird, it's a wounded child acting out his anger with what little resources he has... And it's heartbreaking to read about...

It's such a shame that no one in the family, besides the OP, is willing to "rock the boat" and maybe step on some toes and call "Father Knows Best" out on his clearly abusive behavior...


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:

Show me where I contradict this. He is a wonderful father. His kids adore him. He spends more direct, one on one time with his kids than any father I've ever seen. He has way more interest in spending time with his kids than dh ever has.

He cuddles them, sings to them, plays with them, teaches them, feeds them, bathes them, laughs with them. He spends virtually every moment of his free time with his kids. He's a great dad.

A great dad who's dealing with anger problem.

Those things are not mutually exclusive
.

Blessed, I have been following this thread and I have a lot of respect for how you have handled the situation. I disagree with you that he is a wonderful father. Maybe a "good enough" father, maybe not even that. He is consistently being abusive to his kids. It's this consistency, and the effect this must inevitably have on his children, that puts him out of the running for "wonderful father" category, imo.

If I was in your shoes, I would find it extremely hard to remember the awfulness of the moments of abuse when faced with the abundance of "happy" times.

I'm so glad the house will be yours again soon.


----------



## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, they saw a father dunk his kid because he was frustrated that he wouldn't listen while playing in the pool. It wasn't water torture. It wasn't child abuse. It was pushing his head underwater and holding him for a few seconds. That's called dunking and every swimmer I've ever known has been dunked.

.

No it's not dunking, it's not play, it's horrendous. That was inexcusable. That was a father who is holding his child's head under water to teach him a lesson. I truly do not understand why you are defending this man. I feel so badly for those poor kids. That dad needs help. And if he won't seek it voluntarily then it is up to a family member to contact CPS so that he can at least get some anger management counseling and parenting classes. You speak of CPS as if it's certain that the children will be removed. You don't know that for sure. CPS in a lot of states is centered around family preservation and they utilize counseling as a first approach. In the end, your BIL has a serious problem and he needs to seek help. Voluntarily or otherwise it has got to happen before he kills one of those kids.

PS wanted to add that I just read that you called CPS and they refused the case. Unbelievable. Bad. Bad. Bad. I'm in shock. truly. I so hope that somehow someday that man gets help.


----------



## SheepNumber97245 (Apr 20, 2007)

Blessed,

I'm not going through the whole thread.... But please PLEASE explain to me how it is possible to be "a great dad" and do things like dunk your child under water out of anger (not out of play). And how you can be a "great dad" but.... ya know occasionally throw things at your infant. This is not a rhetorical question. I would really like you to explain this to me.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

We had a really great night last night.

BIL and I were talking on the back patio while the kids played in the yard. It was nonstop gentle modeling because both dd and his kids kept coming up to me, wanting to share some story, or asking me to watch something, the way kids do when they play.

At one point 5 yo nephew was at our table talking to me, then turned to run over and 'rescue' dd, calling out "There's no need to fear! Underdog is...". Just then his foot got caught in the cord to the sun umbrella and he pulled the entire table over - wine glasses, empty food plates, everything.

This was clearly the type of thing that would inspire BIL to go completely nutso. Whether it was a complete accident or not would have nothing to do with it. Poor nephew got up and turned to face us, his expression just wretched, just terrified. He moaned "I didn't mean to! I didn't mean to..."

Before BIL could react I laughed out loud and said "Of COURSE you didn't mean to, sweetheart!" I jumped up laughing and started picking up the mess, saying "I think we do have need to fear. Are you sure you're Underdog? Maybe we ought to be rescuing you!" Everyone just started laughing, including BIL and nephew. We cleaned up and the kids went back to playing, with nephew practically euphoric with relief.

Then later we all went swimming in the pool. We just got the pool last week. But because dd trusts me and dh, she lets us teach her things, and she has made huge gains in her swimming. So while all the kids started out at about the same level at the first of the week, dd can now swim long distances underwater, do flips underwater, and dive to the bottom of the pool for objects.

Nephew is still afraid to put his head underwater and so hasn't gained much this week. BIL had been working with him all week, but military style, forcing him, scaring him, shaming him, so forth, so it hadn't really worked. Last night I worked with nephew while BIL just watched. Once nephew figured out that I was good to my word - when I tell him we'll only go under for one second, I mean it; when I tell him I'll come up as soon as he tugs my arm, I do - then he just started to blossom.

Pretty soon nephew was proudly showing his new skills off for his parents, and SIL was out there with the camcorder. I elicited BIL to join us, making him the official 'counter' and 'referee' as we played a game about staying under the water to a certain time, or seeing who could go with me to the bottom of the pool.

Then BIL wanted nephew to do some of the games with him. I really think he was envious. He could see how much fun nephew was having with me, and also how much dd florished under our gentle guidance. He wanted to be a part of that. At first nephew refused, and I think that struck a chord with BIL. All of the kids loved working with their parents above all else, and he couldn't get his oldest son to even come over to him.

I just kept including BIL in our games until he was more or less a part of the action. For instance, I made a rule that the kids had to hold onto their parents' elbows to stay under water while they played Rock, Paper, Scissors tournaments. BIL was careful to not betray nephews trust. It grew from there and pretty soon we were all diving together, with the kids holding onto the parents shoulders.

So we went through the entire evening without any yelling or shaming or time outs or hitting. We had so much fun, BIL most of all, I think.

In a way I wish they lived closer so we could continue modeling for them. In a way I'm relieved that they live far enough away that we aren't regularly exposed to their parenting.


----------



## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
In a way I'm relieved that they live far enough away that we aren't regularly exposed to their parenting.

So, you and your family have basically chickened out and failed to have a direct, frank discussion with both BIL and SIL?

I really, really think someone needs to say, "BIL, you are abusive to your kids, and your water punishments could end up killing one of them. It's not OK to continually terrorize and shame children the way you do." And it's essential that someone take SIL aside and say, "SIL, we are all very worried about your children's safety. BIL is abusive to them. We've got to find a way to stop him from abusing them. We are here to help you."

WHY aren't you (or someone else in the family) doing this???

You need to be strong for those poor children. Someone has to be courageous and risk raising hackles in order to have a much-needed confrontation with BIL and SIL.

Please intervene. Please do something more than just modeling gentle parenting. That's not going to be enough to help these children. One good day at your pool is not going to be enough to erase a lifetime of abuse.


----------



## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Rayo de sol-Ouch! How about a little gentleness here too?

I haven't followed every step of this thread/argument but I really think that relocating the children and bullying an adult is not the way to increase gentleness. It seems to me that he's had a couple frank conversations, some examples to follow and that he was already aware that he wasn't doing things the way he wanted to. I imagine back on his own turf he will either work more freely to change things or simply revert to his old ways. Time will tell.

Blessed- Sorry you got so beat up trying to talk about your situation. Hope he is able to work things out for himself so that it doesn't get worse.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
WHY aren't you (or someone else in the family) doing this???

Pretty simple, really. Because we choose to do things which help rather than make everything worse.

I imagine you think that BIL's reaction to telling him he's abusing and killing his children would be to pause thoughtfully and say "By god, I hadn't thought of it that way! Thanks for your honesty. Come children, let us bond!"

Yeah.

No.

We'd just never see the kids again. He'd feel isolated, angry and persecuted. Since he never practices physical abuse which meets legal criteria, our hands would remain tied and the children would simply be more alone in their sadness.

Gosh, if only life were a 30 minute sitcom. Then we'd all know what to do.


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 

I really, really think someone needs to say, "BIL, you are abusive to your kids, and your water punishments could end up killing one of them. It's not OK to continually terrorize and shame children the way you do." And it's essential that someone take SIL aside and say, "SIL, we are all very worried about your children's safety. BIL is abusive to them. We've got to find a way to stop him from abusing them. We are here to help you."

WHY aren't you (or someone else in the family) doing this???

Do you honestly think that would work? Or would that just make the BIL defensive, MORE strict with his kids to prove he is right, and just completely resistant to change?

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know if much CAN make this family change their ways but I think we need to refrain from judging the OP harshly. NONE of us are in her situation. We can only react to the small pictures of a whole family's life. We hear the frustrated (rightfully so) description of a few minutes of a whole day. How is that enough for us to decide that kids need to be taken away, or to call the OP a chicken?

The OP HAS done something, she has done lots of things. In fact she has done more than most people would. She called CPS for advice and they said it didn't warrant an investigation. So she is working with the situation. She is practicing gentleness with the dad AND the kids.

I DO believe that harsh methods of discipline are abusive, but they are much closer to the norm for a lot of people than gentle discipline. Maybe seeing that other ways can work (and work well) will help BIL see there are better ways to do things, or maybe it won't help at all. At least the OP tried.


----------



## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Your day at the pool sounds really wonderful and I hope that bil reflects on it often.


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I'm so glad your last day went better and that you're getting a break. I do think your BIL is a case of -- when you know better you do better, and he just doesn't know any other way of working with his kids.

I do think that it's possible to address him about him and let him know it doesn't have to be so stressful and he doesn't have to be so hard on the kids to make things work. I do think that saying that in private and not embarassing him is a good approach. It's too bad that didn't happen at the reunion, but I'm so glad you had a successful day.

Anyway, I'll keep you and your BIL's family in my thoughts.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Gosh, if only life were a 30 minute sitcom. Then we'd all know what to do.

This is where I have a huge problem with the way you're handling everything and frankly can't understand why I keep re-opening the thread. You're condescending to everyone who suggests something with which you disagree. If you'll read closely, most of the people who are suggesting something active in trying to deal with the problem either were abuse victims or are involved in the foster care system in some way. They're not "magical thinkers" or people who "live in a sitcom." You're using that language to justify inaction.

I talked about being abused without any adults - including mandated reporters - to stand up for me although they knew what was happening. (Just for the record, I absolutely despise those people now as an adult with distance from the situation. I've never once said, "Mrs. K was nice to me to make up for it." That's true, but it doesn't excuse her decision.) Here's a closer story to what you've described:

My uncle looked to all the world like a wonderful father. He, like your BIL, spent an abnormal amount of time playing with his children for the culture where I grew up. He would play games with them, go to their events, sit and snuggle in the recliner with them. He also had a horrendous "mean streak." He would explode at the drop of a hat. Also like your BIL, these explosions came because of nothing. One of the kids said something the wrong way, stepped on his toe, just annoyed him for no real reason.

And he would abuse them. He did a lot of the arm-jerking and throwing things at him. Eventually the abuse got so bad that he beat my cousin with a PVC pipe because my cousin got the wrong size from a pile of building supplies. He was 7. My cousin once fell and got hurt at my grandparents' house, but because his father had beaten him so severly, they couldn't take him to the hospital for fear of being called on the abuse. When my cousin was 11, his dad hit his arm with a hammer and broke it. My aunt took him to the hospital and said it was a bike accident. Clearly it wasn't (the breaks aren't the same), but the doctors didn't report it. No one reported it. The teachers who suspected strongly it was happening. My mother, my aunts & uncles, my grandparents didn't. They tried to make my cousin feel better by being overly loving to him. They made excuses because Dad and cousin are so close that it would be tragic to have them apart. Dad's really a good guy deep down.

While it would be more climatic to tell you my cousin eventually killed his dad or had a physical confrontation, it's not what happened. It rarely does. My cousin's 24 now and has worked really hard as an adult to process the abuse. He's all but cut off ties to our family - including his own mother who, like your SIL permitted the abuse to happen by running interference when possible (she wasn't home when any of the above incidents happened). He's pissed off at our family because no one had the courage to stand up for him when he was a defenseless child. His father was permanently injured in an accident last year, and Cousin told him he was tired of him and doesn't help care for him.

I know you're in the throes of this situation now, and it's clouding your judgment. Of course it is, and that's normal. I just hope you'll take time later to think about so that if you're in this situation again you're prepared. It's great to involve BIL, but I don't think it has any lasting effects. You said you barely see them and that he's already an involved father. So really you're just pushing him to be the "good guy" of the cycle when he's at your house, but that doesn't change the overall pattern. Situations like this one make me sad because my heart aches for those boys who are surrounded by generally loving adults who aren't doing anything to protect them.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
This is where I have a huge problem with the way you're handling everything and frankly can't understand why I keep re-opening the thread. You're condescending to everyone who suggests something with which you disagree.

My uncle looked to all the world like a wonderful father...
And he would abuse them. He did a lot of the arm-jerking and throwing things at him. Eventually the abuse got so bad that *he beat my cousin with a PVC* pipe because my cousin got the wrong size from a pile of building supplies. He was 7. My cousin once fell and got hurt at my grandparents' house, but *because his father had beaten him so severly, they couldn't take him to the hospital for fear of being called on the abuse*. When my cousin was 11, *his dad hit his arm with a hammer and broke it*. My aunt took him to the hospital and said it was a bike accident. Clearly it wasn't (the breaks aren't the same), but the doctors didn't report it. No one reported it. *The teachers who suspected strongly it was happening.* My mother, my aunts & uncles, my grandparents didn't. They tried to make my cousin feel better by being overly loving to him. They made excuses because Dad and cousin are so close that it would be tragic to have them apart. Dad's really a good guy deep down..

I've wasted enormous and valuable time and effort countering again, and again, and again people who pop in and histrionically crow "Do something! Stop him!" Usually with an added slur thrown in about being chicken, or in denial, or selfish. The fact that their ideas (if indeed they even bother to offer any) about what to do are worse than useless, they are inflammatory and will make the situation worse, seems not to make any impression on you.

I tried explaining, I tried asking people not to keep interrupting and derailing my attempts to work reasonably on the problem, I thanked people for weighing in when they said they disagreed and were moving on. When people kept perseverating with the accusations and simple minded ideas that I had some other worldly ability to spout some indignant words, point my finger and change everything, it got pretty old.

My BIL's situation is not that of your uncle. No one is being beaten. Ever. That is a key point here.

If they were being beaten, the answers would actually be much, much simpler.


----------



## ShannonT (Dec 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Show me where I contradict this. He is a wonderful father. His kids adore him. He spends more direct, one on one time with his kids than any father I've ever seen. He has way more interest in spending time with his kids than dh ever has.

He cuddles them, sings to them, plays with them, teaches them, feeds them, bathes them, laughs with them. He spends virtually every moment of his free time with his kids. He's a great dad.

A great dad who's dealing with anger problem.

Those things are not mutually exclusive.

And I never once said "he just is not into gentle discipline". I said that he was abusive by my standards and yours. But not by the justice systems. And that I could not have the man arrested for not believing in gentle discipline.

It looked like my father adored us as well. Everyone thought he was a great dad. But great dads aren't verbally and emotionally abusive bullies who have an unpredictable violent streak. And we didn't dare to not adore him.

Sure, we had fun together, and those times were really great. But we never knew when that would all come to a screeching halt and he would twist your arm or yank you around and scowl and growl at you. God forbid you actually rough-house too hard with *him* after he did the same with you.

Only once did my mother defend me, though she did try to run interference sometimes. And that was only after he threw me into the wall and I almost punched him. He jumped at her next.

She still excuses him to this say, saying he lacks "patience". She babysits my niece and nephew, and will not leave either or both of them alone with him. That's pretty telling to me that she doesn't trust him with his grandchildren. He's still a giant baby who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way.

Would being removed from the home been the answer? Probably not, but running away was always in the back of my mind. It would have been nice for someone to step in and say anything.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShannonT* 
It looked like my father adored us as well. Everyone thought he was a great dad. But great dads aren't verbally and emotionally abusive bullies who have an unpredictable violent streak. And we didn't dare to not adore him.

Sure, we had fun together, and those times were really great. But we never knew when that would all come to a screeching halt and he would twist your arm or yank you around and scowl and growl at you. God forbid you actually rough-house too hard with *him* after he did the same with you..

Yes. These kids, especially the 5 yo, are clearly very angry at him and feel similarly trapped and manipulated in the ways you describe, I believe.

We were watching some kids movie and a scene came on in which the character, a little boy, is sad over something. His dad comes along, sits down with him and has a nice encouraging talk, leaving the boy feeling better. At the end of the scene the 5 yo said wistfully "I wish I had a dad like that."

I wish he did too.


----------



## fiorio (Aug 30, 2006)

I've been following this thread because like everyone else I'm concerned about your nephews, and also because I have a feeling I will be dealing with a similar situation if/when my sister and her boyfriend have kids.









Blessed, maybe you could send your SIL a book on discipline. Something gentle but also something that isn't too extreme, maybe the Elizabeth Pantley discipline book? I do go back and reread that book when I am feeling stressed out and frustrated by my 3 yo. I come away refreshed and more confident about dealing with my son's behavior. Maybe you could send her a book with a note about how hard the "terrible 2s" (or whatever age) are and you found this book helpful to get through that time.


----------



## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

I stand by my previous post.

To those posters who are dumping on me for what I said, I have a right to disagree with how the OP is handling the situation. And I disagree very strongly with her attitude. And I thought she came here to ask advice? Or is this just a very long rant?

To the OP, fine, do nothing, go ahead and think that one good day means that everything is all better, but don't be surprised if these boys grow up to hate you for being too afraid to confront their parents.

Confrontation isn't pleasant, but it's what's called for when someone is abusing or mistreating defenseless, helpless children. The parents need to know that their peers are not in agreement with how they're treating their boys. They need to know that times and attitudes are changing, and it's not the 19th century anymore. They need to know that a lot of people don't find it acceptable to sadistically terrorize and constantly belittle children anymore.


----------



## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

And I still don’t understand why can’t the wife’s sister or brother (your DH) at least say to their sis: “We’re really worried about you and the children”???


----------



## flyabuv (Jun 23, 2008)

I agree with the poster who suggested sending a disciplining book; or perhaps a personal letter just to the dad explaining that you hope he found the time there a learning experience and that if he feels overwhelmed by his anger that perhaps he should seek professional help and that you are always there for him and his family. It would be non-confrontational and hopefully would not embarass him


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I've wasted enormous and valuable time and effort countering again, and again, and again people who pop in and histrionically crow "Do something! Stop him!" Usually with an added slur thrown in about being chicken, or in denial, or selfish. The fact that their ideas (if indeed they even bother to offer any) about what to do are worse than useless, they are inflammatory and will make the situation worse, seems not to make any impression on you.

I tried explaining, I tried asking people not to keep interrupting and derailing my attempts to work reasonably on the problem, I thanked people for weighing in when they said they disagreed and were moving on. When people kept perseverating with the accusations and simple minded ideas that I had some other worldly ability to spout some indignant words, point my finger and change everything, it got pretty old.

My BIL's situation is not that of your uncle. No one is being beaten. Ever. That is a key point here.

If they were being beaten, the answers would actually be much, much simpler.


Blessed I wonder what you hoped for when you started this thread, and if any way what you wished for was met? I am hard pressed to understand what would have felt like a good outcome here for you? I wonder if that was the problem with the thread? You had particular expectations or needs for yourself, but many of us went directly to the place of the children being abused and need to protect them via some sort of intervention. You have complained that there wern't concrete enough answers for you to work with, and seemed to be frustrated that posters haven't seen the shades of gray or subtleties in this situation. I will stand by my concrete answers 1. Notify a teacher or the children's doctor of what you have witnessed, 2. Document all that you have seen, including the call to CPS, 3. Recognize when you are in over your head and ask for help, ie a colleague, a mental health professional, you family pedi.

The reason you see such a concerted response by posters to your thread is that the issue here is not subtle, it's clear. The children need help, and you seemed to ask for help with the situation. There may be embedded shades of gray here, but that's life-there are always nuances. You work through those once safety has been achieved, and that's not seeming to be the case here.

I also stand by saying that approaching the BIL may put the kids more at risk. Especially if no one is going to follow up on the needs of the children.

Oh, and I don't know about wasting time here--I think posters, myself included, have really tried to be thoughtful, supportive and reasoned. It may not have felt that way because the suggestions didn't meet your needs, but again, I think the plight of the children has trumped all.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
The fact that their ideas (if indeed they even bother to offer any) about what to do are worse than useless, they are inflammatory and will make the situation worse, seems not to make any impression on you.

FTR, I suggested that you not have an intervention when you were leaning that way. It only makes things worse in most situations. I did suggest you call CPS because there was a slight possibility they would investigate. You called, said it was a "dunking," and then said Mom is there to protect the kids. So they said they'd do nothing, which made you feel better. I think you've gotten excellent suggestions from people with first-hand experience of abuse, but you've ignored everything and think because you had one good day with him that it's all better now. They don't seem to make an impression because having experience what you're doing, I understand how futile the effort is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I tried explaining, I tried asking people not to keep interrupting and derailing my attempts to work reasonably on the problem, I thanked people for weighing in when they said they disagreed and were moving on. When people kept perseverating with the accusations and simple minded ideas that I had some other worldly ability to spout some indignant words, point my finger and change everything, it got pretty old.

Simple-minded ideas? I have little to say that wouldn't violate MDC's UA. You can call other people and/or their ideas names all you want. It just serves to reinforce the claims of several posters that you're being selfish, and condescending.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
My BIL's situation is not that of your uncle. No one is being beaten. Ever. That is a key point here.

You said earlier that there were questionable broken arms, which made me think of the issue with my cousin.

You actually have no idea whether he's hitting the kids. You don't live close enough to them, and judging from the behavior you've described, it wouldn't be surprising. You're assuming he doesn't hit them because you didn't see it at your house.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
And I still don't understand why can't the wife's sister or brother (your DH) at least say to their sis: "We're really worried about you and the children"???









:

Since you haven't mentioned how everyone else in the family feels about this, including your dh, I'm guessing they're not owning up to the problem, which is really sad. I'm sorry you're dealing with this all on your own. It's not a problem any one outsider can solve by themselves, especially since they do live so far away and you don't have very much contact with them.

I think I would still reach out to SIL and make sure she knows you will be there for her if she ever needs anything: money, a place to stay, or whatever.


----------



## Apple Girl (Nov 2, 2007)

I've joined this thread rather late, but read the whole thing.

I am sorry that you have to deal with this. I understand your hesitation to do anything more than you've done. Abuse situations are difficult, especially when you are not close enough to the abusers to feel like you can make a difference.

I just wanted to ask if you've ever been held underwater by someone as a punishment? It is the most terrifying experience in the world. I would have reported the incident to CPS without sugar-coating it as a mere "dunking", but called it what it is - a cruel form of physical and psychological torture.

This whole thing makes me ill.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

And we end on the cacophony of replies from people who haven't bothered to actually read the thread.

'...you haven't mention how everyone else in the family feels...I'm _guessing..._'

'...you said earlier there were questionable broken arms...'

All answers that are found in the text.

karne, your reply was actually quite eloquent. I'm not being sarcastic at all. It was very well written. You got my attention.


----------



## oursweetboys (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
My BIL's situation is not that of your uncle. No one is being beaten. Ever. That is a key point here.

If they were being beaten, the answers would actually be much, much simpler.

I just have to wonder how you know this. You don't live near them, you rarely see them. How can you say no one is being beaten ever?? Do you think BIL would tell you? Do you think SIL would tell you? Doubtful. I actually find the fact that two of his children have had broken arms and they're only 1,2, and 5 to be alarming based on the info you've provided about BIL's behavior. Yes, I'm aware that stuff happens and kids break bones etc. I know SIL said both incidents happened when he wasn't there but I don't think she'd tell you if her husband broke her son's arm. Maybe he didn't, but it definitely raises red flags for me. The fact the CPS investigated them at all also signifies something isn't right there. I know you called your local CPS, but I would definitely call and report the incidents you witnessed to THEIR local CPS office so that it might be placed in their file. I doubt they'll do much at this point about your claims, but if something does cause this family to be investigated in the future it may be useful info.

You said that your SIL and her family have been quite isolated from your DH's side of the family. Why? I'm just curious. Is there a reason that your husband's sister is avoiding her family? You seemed receptive to talking privately with your SIL to see if she's O.K. but that didn't happen. Would you consider doing this still or seeing if your DH would do it? It's his sister after all. I know that my brother would be very upset if he thought my husband wasn't treating me or my children well.

I hope that you are able to make some difference in the lives of this family. Please try to keep more of an open mind to the advice that all of these wise mamas are trying to give. Take care,

Leslie


----------



## MtnLivinMama (May 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
I think I would still reach out to SIL and make sure she knows you will be there for her if she ever needs anything: money, a place to stay, or whatever.

Ditto that. I understand that you don't want to split the family apart, but I do not think you have anything to lose (and SIL and her kids might have much to gain) if you say something along the lines of "I really enjoyed spending time with you this past week, and getting to know your ds's - they are sweet boys. I have to mention, though, that at times I was concerned about BIL's discipline style. I know everyone and every family is different, and I certainly fall more on the gentle discipline side of things myself. But his anger seemed like more than just a discipline issue at times. If you ever need any support or just want to talk about things I will always be here.... I can see that he is a great dad a lot of the time, but I was upset when I saw how he acts with the kids when he is angry about something...."

I think you did a great job of modeling, probably better than most of us would have in the circumstances. I am glad for you that you have your home and your family back. Once you have some time to recover and reflect further, I would encourage you to read through this thread again with an honest attempt to be open to what people have to say. Again, I respect that you don't want to tear the family apart, and I know that CPS is not the easy answer. But I think many posters had other valid and thoughtful things to offer - you may find, with time and some peace behind you, that there are things that may be helpful to you. I remain concerned about what I see as red flags in your BIL's behavior. You say he has never, ever beaten anyone, but I wonder how you know this with any certainty? You didn't think he spanked his kids until you saw it happen right in front of you. I think you owe it to SIL to talk with her about it - and her brother does, too. If I were in a dynamic like your SIL, and these things happened right under my own brother's nose, I would feel pretty lost and abandoned if he didn't say something to me - and it would probably make me question the validity of my own feelings (ie, "If brother, FIL, all my relatives don't think its a problem, maybe it really isn't a big deal. I just have to live with it....")


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtnLivinMama* 
Ditto that. I understand that you don't want to split the family apart, but I do not think you have anything to lose (and SIL and her kids might have much to gain) if you say something along the lines of "I really enjoyed spending time with you this past week, and getting to know your ds's - they are sweet boys. I have to mention, though, that at times I was concerned about BIL's discipline style. I know everyone and every family is different, and I certainly fall more on the gentle discipline side of things myself. But his anger seemed like more than just a discipline issue at times. If you ever need any support or just want to talk about things I will always be here.... I can see that he is a great dad a lot of the time, but I was upset when I saw how he acts with the kids when he is angry about something...."

Yes, this sounds like along the lines of what I'm thinking as well.

I think the first and most necessary step is simply to establish a base of trust with this family. Having them here in our home, as part of this family, welcome, loved, appreciated, is the basis for all future intervention.

Approaching SIL would take a lot of groundwork, I think. Right now we live totally separate lives and have no communication. We'd have to establish common ground and a pattern of interaction before broaching such a sensitive topic would even begin to make sense.

I'm not sure if it's even doable.


----------



## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

I know how hard it can be to establish a closer relationship with people who are only known to you because they happen to be family. Perhaps this is where your DH should step in and call up his sister saying how great it was to have her there, how, now that they both are parents he feels they should talk more or whatever. He can also throw in that you really like her too and would love to have that extended family closer bond with them. After that, you can call her up a few times for random things like recipes or pictures of the reunion, etc. If you can get a conversation going, it might be that easy. If possible, try to call when BIL is not around as he is likely the source of their isolation from the family. Maybe you can get other people in the family to do the same.

As for him not beating the kids, you should say he is not beating them yet. The kids are still quite young and can be easily terrorized in the ways you mentioned before. As they grow older, things will almost certainly escalate. Holding under water at 5 (and in front of people) already sounds pretty high on that scale. It would be really surprising if he was not doing the same things the other poster's (sorry did not notice the name) uncle was doing by the time they are 7.


----------



## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

to you blessed. i know this ha been a hard thread to stick with.

as you've said they live in another state so contacting someone there may be difficult. i don't know how easy it would be to contact their pediatrition for instance and is the 5 year old even in school? you might conatc the school if he is, the school board for their county if you don't know which school hed be going to. maybe you could call cps in their county to see if they would want to add something to a similar profile, just to see if maybe the response would be any different from what you heARD in your location.

beyond that maybe just kkeeping in touch, start sending cards, letters the occaisional article, etc. just as a bridge to greater communication later if needed.

hth....


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
And we end on the cacophony of replies from people who haven't bothered to actually read the thread.

'...you haven't mention how everyone else in the family feels...I'm _guessing..._'

Well, since that's my quote, I'll address it.

I have read the entire thread. You've made some comments about how the family isn't comfortable with his actions, but you don't believe they think it's abuse. But that was pretty early on, before there were other situations. I can't recall you actually saying you expressed open concern to any of the ILs privately... it was more an assumption about what their attitudes would be. But, I don't have a photographic memory so I may have missed something over the course of the thread, as I don't go back and reread every post before responding.

You've also never mentioned anyone else stepping in to do things to protect the kids, except perhaps when the 2 yo didn't want to walk on the hike, and then it was more cajoling BIL, and you are the one who finally took action and just carried the 2 yo. You've mentioned the other family members having shocked looks but never DOING anything. You also never answered the question about what your dh thinks about all this and I don't recall a mention where he confronted BIL (during an incident, to protect a child or defuse a situation) or what he says about talking to his sister.

Personally, if it was my family I would be riding Dh's a** to stand up for his nephews and show some concern for his sister, and he wouldn't have a moment's peace from me (in private) until he did. But then, I can't imagine him standing aside and watching this without doing something... and he's not all that fond of/close to his sister. Honestly, the saddest part of this whole post is the silence of your dh's entire family.

I was just trying to offer support about how difficult this must be for you to be the only one taking action in this situation. If I missed a mention of others in the family taking action, please point it out. I think you handled incidents dealing with your BIL with grace, and did a better job than I would have, as I probably would have been pretty abrasive or even kicked BIL out of my house (which I don't think would help anyone longterm).


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Blessed, was any of this helpful to you? I think I understand what didn't work, but I am wondering if there were any pieces that felt helpful at all? Thanks.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Very helpful.

It would have been a much harder week to get through without a forum to voice my dispair and concern. Especially to an audience whom I knew would feel equally outraged.

I think if you poll an internet audience about any given subject you'll get a wide range of answers. Some people seemed to grasp the complexities and were able to follow out proposed actions to their likely conclusions. Others didn't, and couldn't. No matter.

As a _collective_ group, while I often admire MDC members parenting outlooks and abilities, I've never felt that same way about their management of interpersonal relationships. If someone posts about a MIL who is a bit intrusive, there is a hail of mean spirited replies about telling her off and putting her in her place. I remember watching one member's entire family come unraveled over her IL's discomfort with her breastfeeding in their presence. The entire thread was peppered with advice for her to break off her relationship with them, refuse to allow them to see their grandchild, encouragement to draw unyeilding ultimatums. It seemed like I was the sole voice calling for restraint, caution and kindess.

It wasn't entirely like that here. There were many people weighing in whose judgments seemed mature and thought out. And many more PM's to that same effect. But of course there were the usual lit torches and calls for people's heads, which I probably would have been better off to just ignore.


----------



## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I've read through about 5 pages of this thread, and one thing that hasn't ever come up is that this man, this angry, angry man, is probably hurting inside about something. Instead of only pointing the finger and yelling, "Abuser!", is is possible to look at him with a little compassion for a minute? Yelling at your kids probably feels pretty crummy, and it's probably arising from tension/anxiety/anger about something else. Maybe he thinks he's doing them a favor, toughening them up to face the cruelties of the real world. Is there other stuff in this family's life or past that is putting pressure on this man? Instead of trying to take the kids away, which will just make him feel worse/more attacked/threatened, how about looking for root causes of the anger and trying to find a way to help him address it or deal with it? Does he go to church? Is there a men's group that could reach out to him (either a formal one, or maybe all the men in the family could go on a fishing trip or something)? Has somebody else in the family overcome a similiar problem?

Anger is really toxic, not just to the family, but to the person holding it. It hurts terribly to be angry, but sometimes people don't know how to be any other way. Getting angry back at them doesn't show them an alternative.


----------



## j924 (May 17, 2005)

Every day I open this thread and every day I wish I hadn't. I feel so deeply for your poor nephews. I have lost sleep and feel almost a little silly for having these intense feelings for children I have never met or even know exist. What helps is knowing I have made it out of this type of abuse and went on to have very gentle relationships with my kids. So when I think of your nephews, I pray, send out thoughts, give a little light whatever you want to call it. I'm hoping that your thoughts on a message board stirred people so much that our collective prayers/lights/thoughts will be heard by the universe and your nephews will feel it. Please tell your nephews some crazy lady surfing the net is pulling for them.


----------



## U2can (Sep 4, 2006)

disregard...

I was just trying to bring to light the consequences of not advocating for the children...

apparently my own experiences have warped me and the kids really will be fine!


----------



## mean_jeannie (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, this sounds like along the lines of what I'm thinking as well.

I think the first and most necessary step is simply to establish a base of trust with this family. Having them here in our home, as part of this family, welcome, loved, appreciated, is the basis for all future intervention.

Approaching SIL would take a lot of groundwork, I think. Right now we live totally separate lives and have no communication. We'd have to establish common ground and a pattern of interaction before broaching such a sensitive topic would even begin to make sense.

I'm not sure if it's even doable.

Do you have a plan for maintaining open communication with SIL? I think it is an important step.


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *U2can* 
From my own journal -written a year ago...

So, defend the man, if you will, you aren't the first to do so. Just be aware of the long term damage that is happening to these children.

What do you want her to do. Blessed is not responsible for these children first of all, your anger is better directed at their mother, not their aunt who is concerned and said something directly to this father about his actions on that first night.

Believe it or not there are loving and well intentioned parents in the world who <gasp> also have anger issues. I trust that Blessed being in the same home with this family has a lot more equip to describe this father than any of us hearing about the situation.

I don't know what kind of help we are supplying Blessed by telling her she isn't doing enough.

My BIL is very much like the Father discussed in this thread. My Mom did everything that is being suggested Blessed do, and we didn't see my niece for 4 years and I didn't know my sister had my nephew until he was 5 months old (threw gossip, my sister didn't tell us).

I patched up that relationship with my sister, and we're very close now. She divorced her husband, and despite that fact that his anger is not healthy for anybody, he is also a loving dad.

My ex-BIL was raised in a bone chilling abusive home, way beyond abusive and into the area of sadistic. In his mind he is not abusive, because his kids aren't subjected to the same life and his kids have never been hit.

I learned in my experience with my sister (who cut off contact with us, not her husband. Her husband actually encouraged her to try to get back in contact with us). If you push on a person they usually push away, if you are a good example (which is the relationship I have now with my sister) they come to you.

When the person is doing nothing legally wrong, and we all know your not going to get anywhere with an intervention, I think modeling a better way of life, AND starting better contact with this family is the way to go.

Blessed I truly do believe your doing the best you can.

I know we all want to protect kids, but it's a process, it's not a ambush.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

U2can,









Btdt.

Pat


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *U2can* 
disregard...

I was just trying to bring to light the consequences of not advocating for the children...

apparently my own experiences have warped me and the kids really will be fine!


I hope the deletion of your post isn't because of what I said, I'm assuming that it is, because I'm the only one who replied. I am not disregarding your feelings, you feelings on this issue are extremely valid on this subject.

I do not believe that the kids will be just fine. But what can be done for them to make this situation better, not worse, that's the question.

Don't you think that if Blessed had a solid answer to how to make this family function better, the father calmer, and the children happy and safe she would do it?


----------

