# I see SO many people looking for the same advice on hitting...



## TheRationalCrunchy (Apr 6, 2008)

And it just makes me wonder if there's a different approach to be taken with GD, so I've mentioned it in a couple of threads, but now I'll start a new one to talk about it.

"Teeth are not for biting," "Hands are not for hitting," "Use gentle touches," all that, to me, ignores the core of what GD means to me. To me, GD is recognizing that a child's emotions are as valid as my own -- they may not be socially acceptable or even excusable, but they're valid in the internal structure of the child's mind. To say "no, your impulse is wrong and bad" seems to me to be exactly the kind of thing I dislike about parents NOT using GD.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of biting. Many people bite carrots. Many people chew pencils or pens. There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of hitting. Many people hit drums, or tambourines, or punching bags. There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of kicking. We kick soccer balls, hacky sacks, cans. We do these things with POWER and vigor, things that "gentle touch" doesn't satisfy!

If you really had a terrible day and just wanted to punch your boss in the face because he said something really terrible to you, which would help more? Gently touching your boss, or throwing a couple of good punches at a punching bag? If you're really angry, or even if you're just PMSing and want to start a fight, which makes you feel better? Being sweet and kind, or expressing your frustration by making some noise banging a drum or singing or something else?

Also, remember: our closest relatives are chimpanzees. Chimpanzee society is full of siblings jockeying for position in the clan. Sometimes kids have a distinct URGE to fight, and denying that urge completely instead of redirecting it into a safe and socially acceptable form is as bad as telling a little boy it's wrong to play with dolls.

For me, GD is all about recognizing children's emotions and allowing them to express them healthily. But children are NOT always happy. Are you always happy? No? So why do we think it's okay to tell an angry child (as I saw suggested in another thread) to jump up and down and clap their hands? That's something we do when we're happy. Children are not dolls. They're not there to keep us amused, and they're supposed to sometimes be sad or angry just like we are. I think in many ways it hurts parents and teachers and caretakers when they can't redirect a child's anger into jubilant happiness, but the truth is, sometimes, you feel like fighting. How many of us have never even ONCE picked a fight with a significant other just because we were in a bad mood? Remember that when you next get frustrated by your child, and remember that what helps isn't being told to be gentle and sweet, it's getting your anger off your chest.


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## OneBlessedMommy (Mar 10, 2008)

good point never thought that much into it but thanka, thats why i love reading all these posts, great insight


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## AidynElyMama (Dec 5, 2007)

Thank you for that, I have always been so confused with the theory behind all of the advice. You're right, just because it may not be convenient for me, or easier to try to sweep it under the rug, my kids have as much right to be angry as I do, and as much right to express it. I guess instead of redirecting to a "happy" activity, it might be more productive to find healthy ways to release the anger.

Thanks for the insight, you gave me a little "aha!" moment







.


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## ani'smommy (Nov 29, 2005)

Wow, very insightful post. Thanks! It does totally make sense, too. If I was really mad about something and hit something and someone told me to "touch gently" I would be pretty irritated.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

ITA with what you are saying to an extent. I think that kids need to learn to touch gently, and it is our job to teach that (gentle touch) with a very young child (2 or 3) but not an older child. The older child already knows that and definitely needs a different kind of guidance at that point, and a chance to express how they are feeling.

I really like the "Cry for Connection" sticky...It was what first made me think about this issue.


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## kapatasana (Apr 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheRationalCrunchy* 
And it just makes me wonder if there's a different approach to be taken with GD, so I've mentioned it in a couple of threads, but now I'll start a new one to talk about it.

"Teeth are not for biting," "Hands are not for hitting," "Use gentle touches," all that, to me, ignores the core of what GD means to me. To me, GD is recognizing that a child's emotions are as valid as my own -- they may not be socially acceptable or even excusable, but they're valid in the internal structure of the child's mind. To say "no, your impulse is wrong and bad" seems to me to be exactly the kind of thing I dislike about parents NOT using GD.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of biting. Many people bite carrots. Many people chew pencils or pens. There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of hitting. Many people hit drums, or tambourines, or punching bags. There is nothing inherently wrong with the action of kicking. We kick soccer balls, hacky sacks, cans. We do these things with POWER and vigor, things that "gentle touch" doesn't satisfy!

If you really had a terrible day and just wanted to punch your boss in the face because he said something really terrible to you, which would help more? Gently touching your boss, or throwing a couple of good punches at a punching bag? If you're really angry, or even if you're just PMSing and want to start a fight, which makes you feel better? Being sweet and kind, or expressing your frustration by making some noise banging a drum or singing or something else?

Also, remember: our closest relatives are chimpanzees. Chimpanzee society is full of siblings jockeying for position in the clan. Sometimes kids have a distinct URGE to fight, and denying that urge completely instead of redirecting it into a safe and socially acceptable form is as bad as telling a little boy it's wrong to play with dolls.

For me, GD is all about recognizing children's emotions and allowing them to express them healthily. But children are NOT always happy. Are you always happy? No? So why do we think it's okay to tell an angry child (as I saw suggested in another thread) to jump up and down and clap their hands? That's something we do when we're happy. Children are not dolls. They're not there to keep us amused, and they're supposed to sometimes be sad or angry just like we are. I think in many ways it hurts parents and teachers and caretakers when they can't redirect a child's anger into jubilant happiness, but the truth is, sometimes, you feel like fighting. How many of us have never even ONCE picked a fight with a significant other just because we were in a bad mood? Remember that when you next get frustrated by your child, and remember that what helps isn't being told to be gentle and sweet, it's getting your anger off your chest.

You make a very valid point.


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## the2amigos (Apr 27, 2005)

I LOVE your post! What wonderful insight and something I have thought a lot about. I don't have a problem with DS being angry or sad and I do need a physical outlet when I'm angry also. So how can I get DS to find a way that works for him, without me getting beat up in the process??

I get that his anger is ok, but hitting me hard with his hands or objects is NOT ok. I get that "gentle touch" is not the answer right now, but what is then?


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I like this point of view so much, that it's going into my 'permanent' subscriptions folder for future reference. Your insight has put it into words for me why I couldn't quite understand the GD concept. This makes it easier to understand the child, and find appropriate solutions. Thank you.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i totally get what you're saying.

personally, i've been completely floored that there are parents who do time out or punish for tantrums. i haven't witnessed too much happy-ing up but it all seems wrong on many levels...

for me GD is mostly about parents learning how to be more empathetic engaged listeners and not trying to quick fix their kids. but is that it??? i've read the CFC sticky too and totally think it's right on. but then what? what is the next step?

my question then is beyond listening to him what tools can i give my child now so he isn't stuffing feelings and/or raging out when he is an adult? my babe is still a little 'un so were a ways off.

i don't think punching things instead of people is really all that helpful. and i don't think i will be suggesting that to my ds when he's 3. i just don't see how it really teaches anything for the future. i mean- if someone pissed me off in the workplace and i walked away from the interaction and punched a pillow they'd think i was nuts! but what are age appropriate actions that do sink in and help kids learn healthy socially acceptable ways to emote?

i like to think i've started our GD journey in babyhood with being engaged and with controlling situations, not ds, so he doesn't get frustrated, overly tired, hungry, etc.. and with learning more about myself and how to handle myself. but as he gets older-then what? how does one GD an angry child?? how does a parent teach a child it's ok to be angry but not ok to hit another person or by being destructive? it's a thought i've been having more and more with observing different parents with their older kids. i've already read a bunch of books from the GD book list but they get a bit heavy on the theory and not so much on the practical.

OP - i completely appreciate your observation. i hope i didn't derail your thread with this long winded post. i think it is an extrapolation of the same thought.


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## shanna-cat (Jul 30, 2006)

I am so glad that this post is here! i agree that it is so much more helpfull to help a child learn appropriete ways to deal with there emotions than showing them a more 'socially acceptable' way to act. when my son is hitting/spitting/kicking i try and show him what is okay to hit/kick/spit - such as you can hit the couch, you can kick the ball, you can spit in the sink or outside, and so on. I hope that i am teaching him safe and appropriette ways to deal with his emotions. i use the 'gentle' approach when he is trying to be gentle but not quite there yet, like when petting the cat or giving his baby brother a hug.
i subscribe to a daily email called 'the daily groove' by scott noele that (when i read it) helps me focus my day with real GD.
here is the link and i encourage all you mama's to take a look- some of the advice is great!
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove


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## shanna-cat (Jul 30, 2006)

stickywicket67 said:


> i don't think punching things instead of people is really all that helpful. and i don't think i will be suggesting that to my ds when he's 3. i just don't see how it really teaches anything for the future. i mean- if someone pissed me off in the workplace and i walked away from the interaction and punched a pillow they'd think i was nuts! but what are age appropriate actions that do sink in and help kids learn healthy socially acceptable ways to emote?
> 
> i think that be observing their parents/caregivers that children will learn to express their emotions approprietly. when my husband and i get into an argument and the kids are around or hear us (which happens more than i would like) i hope that by seeing me get upset and scream into my pillow (ahem) that he is learning from me and seeing that when i am upset i don't hit but do yell sometimes and do clench my fists or stomp or yell into my pillow. i just think that giving him options of things to hit/kick at when he is so young that are around him is the beginning of him learning to cope with anger or unhappy emotions. i don't use the pillow example with him because that would involve me taking him out of the moment and i don't think a 2 or 3 year old is capable of that kind of thought yet...


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Thank you for this post!

I am struggling with many parts of GD with my 3 yo - mainly because in the heat of the moment, I go back to "what I know", and that is not GD. I really love how you explored this idea, and really explained it in a way that my brain could understand! I think this may be the piece that I was missing!


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

OH I wish that my sons school would understand this. I totaly know where you are comming from and when my son has a tempertantrum and NEEDS to get it out - I direct him to a valid outlet, jump on the tampoline as hard as he can, yell at the wall/picture/great outdoors (we live in the middle of nowhere so this work) as loud as he can. Punch as an old sheet hanging on the cloths line. He has to get it out and the more you stiffle that anger or coddle it the worse it is next time. When he has a full out temper as home I can genereally have it over in 10 minutes and have him calm enough to talk too. At school they have spent the entire day trying to keep him "down" and I get a call at the end of the day (if not before) that he is being bad- hitting, kicking generally not doing as he is told.
If your where angry at that person before they asked you to do something - would you do it?


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## violet (Nov 19, 2001)

I like what I'm reading but I'm wondering....
I just finished reading "Emotional Intelligence" and just to play the other side a bit -- What is the long term goal we are trying to teach here?

Is it that all emotions are eqaually valuable and equally deserving of free and unfettered expression? Or that all feelings are natural and deserving of our attention to find a valid solution? Or that all feelings are real but we must find ways of expressing them that don't harm others? or something else.

The reason I wonder is because some of the suggestions for "getting the anger out" may in fact allow the child to "stew" in the feelings, which could set up the neural pathways in the brain to reinforce habits of angry feeling-->angry thoughts-->violent actions-->adrenaline rush etc. According to "Emotional Intelligence" and the studies sited in that book, that is a real danger. We are teaching these children how to respond to their emotions and the reactions they have are actually laying down foundations in their brain for how they will function later in life. So maybe "gentle touches" avoids the underlying issue that caused the anger. But maybe encouraging them to hit pillows or objects or be physical in an intense way doesn't help them to bring about a solution either.

Just a thought


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I absolutely love this OP. I feel exactly the same way. Of course, I am a hitter, a thrower, a physical-release of my emotions sort of a woman. And I'm teaching my DD that it's okay to be like that. Both of us get a lot out of hurling rolls of toilet paper around the garage or screaming into a pillow or whathaveyou. Thanks for the thread.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheRationalCrunchy* 
Also, remember: our closest relatives are chimpanzees. Chimpanzee society is full of siblings jockeying for position in the clan.

Not quite. We're just as close to bonobos, who are gentle and egalitarian.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

There are specific books about what you're talking about... Specifically what you're talking about it teaching children about Emotional Intelligence, something studied and written about relatively recently by Daniel Goleman.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheRationalCrunchy* 
"Teeth are not for biting," "Hands are not for hitting," "Use gentle touches," all that, to me, ignores the core of what GD means to me. To me, GD is recognizing that a child's emotions are as valid as my own -- they may not be socially acceptable or even excusable, but they're valid in the internal structure of the child's mind. To say "no, your impulse is wrong and bad" seems to me to be exactly the kind of thing I dislike about parents NOT using GD.

I was totally with you here. I'm not a fan of telling kids to use gentle touches when what they are REALLY trying to do is express something that simply can't be expressed through gentle touches.

But there are definitely ways to express anger, and ways to guide children to express anger, that don't involve allowing them to hit something when they are angry. I have honestly not ever that I remember wanted to hit someone to express my anger towards them. So if I'm angry at my boss- neither of the things you mentioned would help (punching something or touching him gently). What would help is complaining to someone who understands, maybe getting all riled up, perhaps saying "grrrrrrrr," fantisizing about telling my boss how I really feel about him, etc.

I think that redirecting angry hitting to hitting an inanimate object could sometimes be missing the point just as much as saying "gentle touches." It might not be helping the child understand that their impulses and feelings are perfectly legitimate, and it might not help them find better ways to express themselves. It might not help the child understand and embrace their feelings. If my ds seems angry, and goes to hit me, and I redirect him to hitting a pillow, it's still not giving him a way to tell me what's up. It's not giving him a way to express to me how he feels, and its not giving him a way to work with me to find a solution. And it might not even help him feel better about anything.

Quote:

For me, GD is all about recognizing children's emotions and allowing them to express them healthily. But children are NOT always happy. Are you always happy? No? So why do we think it's okay to tell an angry child (as I saw suggested in another thread) to jump up and down and clap their hands? That's something we do when we're happy.
I think that was me you are referring to. When my ds was younger, HE chose this way to express his anger. He wasn't an angry hitter at all- had never ever done angry hitting at that point. His jumping up and down and clapping (actually it was more like clasping his hands) did not look like a happy action at all- it most definitely conveyed how he was feeling at the time.
It seems that you read into that what you wanted to read. My post was about finding acceptable ways for kids to express their feelings. It was the opposite of "oh, just be nice and happy." It was "ok you're angry. There are better ways to express that anger than hitting me. Let's find one of those ways." It was finding some way for ds to express their anger that is agreeable to HIM and to me.
If a kid wants to do that through jumping up and down, why isn't that ok? You don't see that as angry enough? It could be anything- for me, it helps to say "grrrrr" for you it might be something else.


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## guestmama9944 (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks OP. I never got that you were trying to say we shouldn't try to teach (I hate that word - I'd rather "model") more appropriate behavior, just that expecting kids to *not* express strong emotions isn't necessarily a good way to go about discipline. I like how you pointed out that we shouldn't expect kids to switch gears from angry to happy because certainly we don't do that ourselves.

I'm having a hard time with this right now, actually. One of my dd's has taken to whining day and night. At first it's not so bad. And then I had to start thinking "What is it that is making her so upset?" I tried to fix those things, tried to change the environment, spent more time with her, and the whining continues. One night I was thinking, there *is* a point whenever her emotional expression encroaches on my need for emotional sanity! On one hand I feel bad for feeling that way because it is my job as a parent to help her deal with these emotions. On the other hand - aren't my feelings as important as hers? There's a line somewhere.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:

ITA with what you are saying to an extent. I think that kids need to learn to touch gently, and it is our job to teach that (gentle touch) with a very young child (2 or 3) but not an older child. The older child already knows that and definitely needs a different kind of guidance at that point, and a chance to express how they are feeling.

I really like the "Cry for Connection" sticky...It was what first made me think about this issue.








:

This above post and also I think redirecting the strong emotions (anger or what have you) to a more appropriate receptor than whatever/whomever the child is hitting.








I obviously don't want my child to hit, but I want them to express feelings, all feelings, including anger and to have an appropriate understanding of how to do that.


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## grantskismom+1 (Mar 8, 2008)

I get what you're saying but I can't say that I completely agree. My kids are allowed to be upset and feel any emotion that they feel the need to feel. That said, they don't get to violate me or anyone else to release those emotions. The ONLY way I am to be touched and the ONLY way my children can touch me is gently. When I show my child "gentle touches" I am showing him that that is the appropriate way to touch me.

I don't think reacting violently to anger or frustration is healthy. I think it's destructive. I don't "teach" my children how to deal with their anger. They have to find their own method for that. I believe my job is to create boundaries for him to operate in. Hitting is outside of those boundaries.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

This is exactly the dialogue I've been craving, but I couldn't put it into words.

When I get angry I think about the situation over and over. I consider how am I going to deal with this person. Sometimes I tell them how I feel and sometimes I let it go. At most I can be snippy or sarcastic in the heat of the moment, and I always regret it.
Anyway my point is that throwing things or hitting objects doesn't really take care of the issue. It does release tension, but so does jogging. Kids need to use their intellect and reasoning to solve their problems. Teaching them to articulate their feelings will give them the social skills they need to function in all situations. Whatever age they are, parents can help them use their words. When they are two or three we can speak about the situation for them. For example, 'Boy you are really angry because we have to leave the park'. As they mature we can change our speaking/listening (we should do more listening than speaking in most circumstances) to meet their needs, always keeping the goal in view: using words to express their feelings rather than physical violence or stuffing their emotions.

As for hitting...it's ok for you to be angry because we are leaving the park, but you cannot hit mamma.


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## aschmied (Apr 22, 2007)

I've been having some good success with having my 3 yo YELL when she wants to hit. That seems to release some of the angry energy, and she can be a bit more rational about what's making her so mad. If she's to the hitting point, talking is not going to work. The yelling is LOUD and hurts my ears, but it's WAY better than hitting me or the baby. Yelling for her is actually pretty natural. I saw her start that as early as 15 months or so, when things weren't going her way to just scream with clenched fists. Then she was fine. It's only since about 3 that the hitting started.


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## mom_of_boys (Apr 29, 2008)

Quote:

"Teeth are not for biting," "Hands are not for hitting,"
That's why you'd say "teeth are not for biting others" Hands are not for hitting others"

or just plain and simple

"treat other people the way you wish to be treated"


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## rachellanigh (Aug 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet* 
I like what I'm reading but I'm wondering....
I just finished reading "Emotional Intelligence" and just to play the other side a bit -- What is the long term goal we are trying to teach here?

Is it that all emotions are eqaually valuable and equally deserving of free and unfettered expression? Or that all feelings are natural and deserving of our attention to find a valid solution? Or that all feelings are real but we must find ways of expressing them that don't harm others? or something else.

The reason I wonder is because some of the suggestions for "getting the anger out" may in fact allow the child to "stew" in the feelings, which could set up the neural pathways in the brain to reinforce habits of angry feeling-->angry thoughts-->violent actions-->adrenaline rush etc. According to "Emotional Intelligence" and the studies sited in that book, that is a real danger. We are teaching these children how to respond to their emotions and the reactions they have are actually laying down foundations in their brain for how they will function later in life. So maybe "gentle touches" avoids the underlying issue that caused the anger. But maybe encouraging them to hit pillows or objects or be physical in an intense way doesn't help them to bring about a solution either.

Just a thought

I really resonate with this post. How about trying to talk about anger...."you seem mad". "Hitting hurts...if you are mad then tell your brother you don't want to share your toys right now"

I try this and have seen it work a couple times. Although I must admit I've received so much pressure to instill time outs that I have tried that too. It only seems to freak out my son even more and just make him more mad.

Its sad because I really want him to do something else besides push his brother around....

I'll keep reading!


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

Hmmmm. I really WANT to agree, and I definitely agree with the impotence of telling a kid who wants to hit angrily to touch gently (though that is not always it- sometimes they are hitting to see how it feels. Gentle touches is intended to be advice for 15 month olds who are experimenting more than 3 year olds who are frustrated), but...

My kid is always the one who gets hit. She's never hit. It's not just that hitting is not "socially acceptable." It's violence perpetrated on my kid, you know? And that's got to be stopped, as soon as it gets started, and as the "victim," I think she deserves to see that this isn't right, the people she think she can trust don't think it is ok this happened to her, and we are going to try to keep it from happening again. Is there any culpability here? Do you not agree there should be some at appropriate ages? How does this model take the hittee into account? Because the image I have in my head is not super hot.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Great post! I agree - too many kids equate being mad with being bad/naughty/etc. I find that hitting/aggressive behavior happens in our house when there hasn't been enough physical outlet time. (i.e. there's been too much tv, we've been cooped up do to the weather, etc.)

When the kids have plenty of loud rambunctious (and I mean this as a GOOD thing







) playtime - they still argue over toys, they still have frustrations, but there is much less hitting/screaming at each other.

When I taught PreK, I used the Second Step curriculum with my class. It is an anger managment/anti-bullying curriculum. I was amazed at how many of the kids - who were from very "crunchy" households too - said that being angry was NOT ok. I'm sure it was never spelled out to them - but they learned it none the less. We try at home to talk about what you can do when you are mad (stomp, growl up in the air, kick the soccer ball, etc) and what we can't do (hurt each other's bodies or feelings). I think it helps all of us (parents too!) to be reminded of this stuff.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm not trying to be snarky here and I totally get what you say and I can agree with much of it -- but you are only discussing half the issue.

So what DO you do with a child who hits or bites others. I don't know about you but I don't want to be hit or bit and I don't want my child to be hit or bit by another child. I will accept that their anger is valid but I have a hard time accepting that hitting and biting are valid.

I understand that you want a discussion but I don't understand where you want to go with this discussion. Are you suggesting we let children hit and bite whenever they feel like it?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet* 
I like what I'm reading but I'm wondering....
I just finished reading "Emotional Intelligence" and just to play the other side a bit -- What is the long term goal we are trying to teach here?

Is it that all emotions are eqaually valuable and equally deserving of free and unfettered expression? Or that all feelings are natural and deserving of our attention to find a valid solution? Or that all feelings are real but we must find ways of expressing them that don't harm others? or something else.

The reason I wonder is because some of the suggestions for "getting the anger out" may in fact allow the child to "stew" in the feelings, which could set up the neural pathways in the brain to reinforce habits of angry feeling-->angry thoughts-->violent actions-->adrenaline rush etc. According to "Emotional Intelligence" and the studies sited in that book, that is a real danger. We are teaching these children how to respond to their emotions and the reactions they have are actually laying down foundations in their brain for how they will function later in life. So maybe "gentle touches" avoids the underlying issue that caused the anger. But maybe encouraging them to hit pillows or objects or be physical in an intense way doesn't help them to bring about a solution either.

Just a thought

I don't know how I missed this post the first time, but ITA with it.


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## TheRationalCrunchy (Apr 6, 2008)

I don't know why people who are replying aren't reading the entirety of the post. I said it's unacceptable to hit/bite other people or animals -- the point isn't to say "oh, it's valid to do exactly that," it's to say "we can hit and bite -- SOMETHING ELSE that won't be hurt by it."


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheRationalCrunchy* 
I said it's unacceptable to hit/bite other people or animals -- the point isn't to say "oh, it's valid to do exactly that," it's to say "we can hit and bite -- SOMETHING ELSE that won't be hurt by it."

I know what you were saying...I agree.

I posted earlier about finding a more appropriate outlet, but acknowleging the anger.

I do say things like "gentle please." (Let's face it, I'm one of those moms who probably sounds like a broken record I say "Gentle!" so gently so many times a day to a kid who isn't going to be gentle!)

I think "gentle, please" can work. That's because a kid probably isn't hitting...or biting or kicking or whatever out of anger most of the time. There are many reasons kids hit, kick, bite.

When a child is angry, hearing gentle probably won't dissipate the anger and it doesn't acknowledge the anger or even address the issue causing the anger. I'm all for acknowleging the anger, honoring the reason, and letting the emotion out so we can let it go and move on with our day.

I don't advocate hitting or biting anything, but if it takes physical exertion or yelling to get the anger out, I'm all for directing it appropriately.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I read the whole post. What I was saying is that hitting differs from many other socially unacceptable behaviors that we deal with by redirecting or validating (which is what you are proffering as a solution) in that there is a victim. Unlike, say, spitting on the rug, which I would deal with exactly the way you would hitting, another kid is hurt, and the ramifications of that need to be dealt with. I think you have to take that more into account.

And I also agree with whoever said overly validating anger helps kids stew- I read that the brain processes on both anger and hopelessness are really similar, and are self reinforcing.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
And I also agree with whoever said overly validating anger helps kids stew.









:

I do agree that you shouldn't over-validate. You shouldn't over-anything when it comes to parenting.

I think a quick acknowlegement of the reason for the anger is sufficient, then work on an appropriate way to get it out of their system, and move on with the day.

I would never dwell on acknowleging the anger...I'm just thinking in mind of parents who kind of gloss over the fact and maybe say gentle or nevermind to a kid who clearly needs to tell the parent why something happened.

I think acknowledging the emotion is valid, but keeping it in perspective is equally important.









I don't ever want to be the parent who looks at my kid and says either directly or implied "forget it" or "suck it up."


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

Hmmm, I'm not really sure I agree that all emotions should be "expressed." Especially anger. I think that when we act out in anger towards anything (including a drum or punching bag) it creates the impulse to act out physically in the future with our anger. I do think anger is a valid emotion and isn't "bad" but that maybe by simply feeling the emotion and allowing it to dissipate we could learn to not have to act on the emotion.
So then it becomes a question of whether or not a child can do that. As an adult, that is the approach I take and the approach that I would eventually love to see my children model. I think my son would be pretty scared if when I got mad I started hitting pillows or punching bags or making loud sounds, even if I wasn't "hurting" anything.
I just don't buy that we need to act on every emotion. Emotions are very fleeting and if we can learn to wait and be still, they will pass and another one will come up. Again, I'm not sure how to teach this to a child and certainly hitting a drum would be better than hitting me but does it really accomplish what I'm hoping to teach in the long run?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoginisarah* 
I just don't buy that we need to act on every emotion.









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I don't think they need to be acted upon, but I do think they should be acknowledged and something should take place to let them go and move on. I'm not advocating hitting or punching anything. I don't like physical agression of any kind, whether it's directed at a person, an animal, or a pillow.

I just think the reasons for feeling an emotion need to honored, or acknowledged is a better word I think.

If I were super upset about something unjust that happened to me, and I didn't have adult capabilities but instead toddler capabilities, I don't know if I would want someone to say "gentle, gentle" to me. That might make me more upset. And some kids do get more upset by this.

It's very situational. Sometimes "gentle, please" works and sometimes something else is needed.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
I'm not trying to be snarky here and I totally get what you say and I can agree with much of it -- but you are only discussing half the issue.

So what DO you do with a child who hits or bites others. I don't know about you but I don't want to be hit or bit and I don't want my child to be hit or bit by another child. I will accept that their anger is valid but I have a hard time accepting that hitting and biting are valid.

I understand that you want a discussion but I don't understand where you want to go with this discussion. Are you suggesting we let children hit and bite whenever they feel like it?

I am not sure what the OP intended but I would never suggest that we let children hit and bite when they feel like it. I think it's more about telling them that hands are not for hitting when actually they are and can be used for hitting etc.

I do not say "hands are not for hitting" rather I say "we don't hit people" and another one I say is "I don't hit you, you don't hit me".

Depending on the age of the child I would then follow it up with a naming of the emotion "you are mad aren't you" and for the older child "I know it's frustrating when your sister...."

Our home is non-violent. There is never hitting or biting allowed. We try to prevent it from happening in the first place by making sure their needs for food, sleep, quiet, stimulation are met, setting them up for success whenever possible and then validating their feelings and suggesting more appropriate, non-violent ways to vent their anger like punching a pillow. They get to be angry..they don't get to hurt people.

That's how it works in our house

eta...what I have found is that the more you validate and tell the child you understand the quicker the anger fizzles and the less need there is to vent it. The anger is understood and validated. It just takes the intensity out of it somehow.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I think it's more about telling them that hands are not for hitting when actually they are and can be used for hitting etc.

I do not say "hands are not for hitting" rather I say "we don't hit people" and another one I say is "I don't hit you, you don't hit me".

Depending on the age of the child I would then follow it up with a naming of the emotion "you are mad aren't you" and for the older child "I know it's frustrating when your sister....".

Oh, good point!









I've often thought this, especially about "teeth are not for biting." I mean, technically, teeth are for biting, right? ...just not other people!

I think it's good to be clear and simple with children and I think you illustrated this beautifully with the things you say to kids.


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## aschmied (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spring Flower* 
Oh, good point!









I've often thought this, especially about "teeth are not for biting." I mean, technically, teeth are for biting, right? ...just not other people!

I think it's good to be clear and simple with children and I think you illustrated this beautifully with the things you say to kids.










DD actually corrected me on this. I had said something like Teeth are not for biting: and she said, "but Mommy, they ARE for biting, that's how we eat!" This lo keeps me on my toes! We then had to list, in detail, all the things we could think of that were, and were not, for biting. It may not work for every kid, but it helped DD a lot. She still hits when frustrated and angry frequently though.


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## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

I'm sort of scratching my head at some of these responses because I'm thinking that it is nearly impossible to expect a child to deal with anger like we expect most adults to deal with it (in a "socially acceptable" manner). Then I realized that I have a 2 year old and some of you might have much older children.
So having said that, I would never expect my child to be good at handling his anger. I believe that if they are hurting someone else, then redirecting that physical aggression is VERY appropriate and would make sense instead of telling them they have to find other, non-physical ways of expressing their anger. I have been observing my anger on a daily basis (we are getting 2 year molars) and I am noticing that no matter how much I try to sit with my anger and let it pass (rationalization, looking at it from a different perspective), I really do not feel better until I go in another room and beat the crap out of my pillow while uttering some obscene words under my breath. Would I ever want my son to see this? Of course not, it would very well scare the crap out of him. I am 35 years old and can fully admit that I have a very BIG temper and I am not ashamed to get out my anger however I need to AS LONG as I am not crossing anyone else's boundaries. It has taken me many years to get to this point to learn how to BE angry and not hurt anyone (verbally) in the process. If my pillow gets hurt occasionally, then so be it. I could never expect my 2 year old to have a better handle on it than me.

Wendi


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## MamaRBH (Feb 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
I like this point of view so much, that it's going into my 'permanent' subscriptions folder for future reference. Your insight has put it into words for me why I couldn't quite understand the GD concept. This makes it easier to understand the child, and find appropriate solutions. Thank you.









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I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful post, OP. I found it to be both comforting and inspirational. I've been lurking here in the GD board and found myself confused.... your post has brought some of my questions to light.


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

Personally I think it is important to first acknowledge the child's feelings. "You are angry...." THEN address the hitting "I understand you are angry, but I want to be touched gently" "Tell Mommy what is making you mad" "Let's work this out" "I want to help you. It is not okay to hit/bite, but I can help you when you tell me about how you are feeling" For younger kids who may not yet havae the appropriate language abilities verbalize for them the feelings they most likely have.
If we focus so much on the fact that the child is hitting I think it may reinforce the idea to hit. It also avoids the real issue: the fact that they are overcome with feelings they don't know how to express appropriately. When they feel their feelings are heard and understood they lose the desire to express their feelings physically.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suprgrl* 
Personally I think it is important to first acknowledge the child's feelings. "You are angry...." THEN address the hitting "I understand you are angry, but I want to be touched gently" "Tell Mommy what is making you mad" "Let's work this out" "I want to help you. It is not okay to hit/bite, but I can help you when you tell me about how you are feeling" For younger kids who may not yet havae the appropriate language abilities verbalize for them the feelings they most likely have.
If we focus so much on the fact that the child is hitting I think it may reinforce the idea to hit. It also avoids the real issue: the fact that they are overcome with feelings they don't know how to express appropriately. When they feel their feelings are heard and understood they lose the desire to express their feelings physically.
































I think this is a great post! I wholeheartedly agree.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I read the whole post. What I was saying is that hitting differs from many other socially unacceptable behaviors that we deal with by redirecting or validating (which is what you are proffering as a solution) in that there is a victim. Unlike, say, spitting on the rug, which I would deal with exactly the way you would hitting, another kid is hurt, and the ramifications of that need to be dealt with. I think you have to take that more into account.

And I also agree with whoever said overly validating anger helps kids stew- I read that the brain processes on both anger and hopelessness are really similar, and are self reinforcing.

I think the point of the post is that telling them to be happy instead of angry and give hugs or something is just not validating at all wheras telling a child to stomp their feet or say they are angry or some other form of expression is validating the emotion and giving an appropriate outlet that a child who is relying on hitting doesn't have and starting that at a young age. Overvalidating is definitely not good but not even acknowledging is just as bad because the child learns that they are not okay and they have to internalize their anger at themselves.


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## TheRationalCrunchy (Apr 6, 2008)

Exactly. See, the big problem with ONLY talking to the child is that they then become totally dependent on you, or someone as committed to GD as you, when they get upset or angry.

If, on the other hand, they have some sort of healthy way of unleashing aggression/anger that doesn't involve harming another being, they can do it whether or not you're right there in the room. I don't believe in making MYSELF so much a part of the solution to a child's every problem that they literally need me for every interaction. I understand it's important to help kids verbalize things, but at 3 and 4 they need to be talked through and they need something more than talk unless mom and dad are literally always around.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think the point of the post is that telling them to be happy instead of angry and give hugs or something is just not validating at all wheras telling a child to stomp their feet or say they are angry or some other form of expression is validating the emotion and giving an appropriate outlet that a child who is relying on hitting doesn't have and starting that at a young age. Overvalidating is definitely not good but not even acknowledging is just as bad because the child learns that they are not okay and they have to internalize their anger at themselves.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I think it's often hard to remember to validate anger when it's the root cause of violence being directed at you or someone you love. My first, primary, instinctual desire when someone causes me pain is not to respond with "I can see that you're upset...when you're upset, you can do _____". I certainly agree that it's probably the most effective response, but it's definitely not the easiest. I can only do that when the hitting/hair pulling/biting/pinching doesn't *really* hurt.

When it does hurt badly, my first impulse is either to protect myself, or to fight back, or to need some kind of apology/gentle action from my son in order to get back on his side (which impulse is strongest depends largely how much pain I'm in). I know other parents who I think are, on some level, afraid of that anger (and the violence that came with it), and that's where the desire to encourage the child to turn it into something else comes from.

For me it boils down to the fact that when I'm in pain, in that moment, I simply do not care that my son is angry because of ____, or that he needs me to connect with him and pay more attention. All I care about is that it's not okay for someone to hurt me. Perfect parenting? Not even close. Very human, and a natural consequence that holds true even as kids grow up? (what are the chances of getting someone to care about your feelings and want to help you after you smack them?) Most definitely.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

And it varies so much from child to child, and age to age. My two year old gets the "Hands are not for hitting."

There was a phase where I let my sons duke it out, because my mediation and cool down atempts, were actually making things worse. Some weird boyhood thing,THEY came out of it better if I let them just get physical, and became closer for it. It amazes me to this day, I don't get it, and I really hope my girls don't ever do it.

Now, at ages nine and ten, when they rarely get physical with each other, I stop them, validate their feelings, and yet point out that hitting is accomplishing NOTHING. And they of their own accord apologize, and go back to what they were doing side by side like nothing just happened. I swear the male animal makes me dizzy trying to figure it out sometimes.

Also, my boys being this age, I have begun to explain to them that there IS a time for hitting. For I've embarked on explaining self defense to them.

And I'm going yet down an entire new road again, with a two year old girl, and another on the way. They are 1: girls not boys, 2: three years apart, not 15 mos. and 4: completely different people. I have no doubt that I will have to learn to handle everything differently. I'm amazed that people actually manage to write books, because child-rearing is an everchanging and always evolving animal.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendizbaby* 
I'm sort of scratching my head at some of these responses because I'm thinking that it is nearly impossible to expect a child to deal with anger like we expect most adults to deal with it (in a "socially acceptable" manner). Then I realized that I have a 2 year old and some of you might have much older children.
Wendi

I agree.....it is a process..they don't start out knowing..I'm in the fortunate position of having children who are older and younger amost 18, almost 14,almost 5 and 2.5. I am not raising the youngers the way I raised the older ones simply because I have honed my skills as a parent. I have talked about this to my oldest because I was particulary hard on her as a kid. One thing though, relationship building can start anywhere and I have focused on rebuilding where I fell short when she had her most difficult years. Without GD I think I would have lost her a few years back.

And my younger children and my almost 14 year old is not having the same problems that her older sister has..she handles things much better emotionally because I have built a stronger relationship earlier with her..and with the little ones it's even earlier.

What was I trying to say? Oh yeah, having older children has allowed me to watch the process. It has also allowed me to say to other adults in their lives, particularly teachers when the behaviour has been less than expected "you get paid stress leave, you get personal time, you get support from your peers when things go bad. If your husband suddenly left you you would be devastated and likely would be angry and not exempliary in your behaviour yet you expect a 14 year old whose father has abandoned her for drugs and is in prison to behave herself and handle it better than is expected of you" It really puts thing in perspective for them. I am always surprised when educators who work with teens give me the "I never thought of that" look.









and having that experience has helped me trust in the process which is HUGE because a lot of parenting revolves around "nipping things in the bud now" so they are not doing that when they are adults when the natural progression is for people to stop doing things they did as a child when they are adults if they are guided along the path to that growth by loving parents.

As to anger...I absolutely believe anger needs to be felt and validated. Expressed...well appropriately...as an adult for me that is simply say "I am angry about..." whatever it is and accepting that that's the emotion I'm feeling. It fizzles faster when I acknowledge it, feel it, express and move on from it. And that is what I am trying to teach my children. I'm getting pretty good at it now at 42..I am hoping they learn it earlier because it was never really taught to me that way. I didn't get to express it in anyway and even saying it was invalidated "oh, you don't hate her" etc. When in that moment, yeah, I probably did.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

I have watched my son start to learn self control bit by bit in the past few weeks about this. He just turned 2 and for a while if he was frusterated, tired, excited, anything, he'd raise his right arm and hit. Every time if he was about to hit us we'd grab that arm and tell him no that hurts us, I know you're feeling ___ about what's going on but let's do this instead. He learned mostly not to hit in a matter of a week. He switched to grabbing up anything nearby and throwing it. Again, if it was dangerous, breakable, or aimed at us we'd stop him, same deal. No doubt we'll have a ton of such phases but this one seemed to have gone well.

I think I got 3 things out of this phase.
1. His behavoir he started with wasn't wrong or bad, it was instinct
2. We stopped it and said it wasn't ok
3. We changed what was going on entirely and met any needs he had, not to dwell on the feeling but not to call it bad.


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## joeymama (Nov 6, 2005)

Most of the time I have had issues with hitting from my ds2 weren't related to anger at all, in fact he was very happy to hit his baby sister in the head with that wooden block or to hit his big brother. And would giggle gleefully while doing so. I think that in the younger child (under 2) hitting has alot to do about having power, power to get a reaction, power to get what they want from their sibling, power to change the situation.etc. Pretty much up until he had the ability to verbalize what he wanted he used hitting as his main source of communication. We used the "gentle baby" phrase and then would move away from him to his "victim" (for lack of a better word) comforting them, expressing that his action had caused another pain/sadness. IMO, that action helped to build compassion and empathy in him. He still hits sometimes, but he feels bad for it and will try to comfort the person he hit weather it be me or his siblings I agree that children need to be able to express anger and shown that is is ok to feel ALL feelings, but they need our guidance and example to learn what to do with them, and what is appropriate in our society, it is not appropriate to hit another person because they are doing something that makes you angry, on the other hand as an adult it is not acceptable to punch the wall next to that person either, that is concidered violence. I really think that it is important to teach them to feel their anger and control it at the same time.

mommy to joey 1/14/05, kai 11/01/06 and Alexis 8/25/07 friend and wofe to harmony







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