# I'm so done.



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

I have a 2 year old that is highly 'spirited'. We are trying to not spank anymore, but it is difficult because that's the way both of us are raised and everyone (family) is yelling "Just swat his heiny!!" anytime we mention anything. He throws massive temper tantrums in public. Today we were at the bookstore playing with the trains and then it was time to go. I told him once, he said no and so I let him play a little bit more (trying to give in more often, I guess). Told him again, said no, let him play 10 more minutes. Well now we really did have to go and I told him again and he said no. I went up to him, took his hand and said "Noah, we are leaving now. Lets go." I even told him that I had a cookie in my bag that he could have when we got into the carseat (thinking distraction might work). He yelled no, and threw himself on the ground while yelling no. I tried to make him stand up but he had jelly legs. Again, I told him "Noah, it is time to go. We are leaving. Get up, Hold my hand, we are leaving now" Same thing, yelling no, practically thrashing on the floor. Now everyone is staring at me and I'm the bad mother with the kid who won't be quiet. So, I told him we were going to the bathroom where I was going to spank his bottom. He, of course, said No, but I did manage to get him to the bathroom and did spank his bottom. I feel like I've been put through a ringer several times. I just didn't know where else to go with this. I don't want to spank him, it makes me feel guilty, I know it's wrong, but I just don't know how else to deal with the situation. I gave in twice and let him play longer. I tried to distract him and offer a reward for leaving and getting in the carseat. I even asked him if he wanted to hold the books we were getting and carry them downstairs for me. Someone tell me what to do. Please don't flame me.







:

ETA: I also tried the "Bye! I'm leaving now. Bye Noah!" trick and hid behind a bookcase where I could see him but he couldn't see me. He didn't care at all. Tried this twice.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Usually when I "give in" I find it's helpful to do consistant "counting down" reminders... like "ok, you can play for 5 more minutes, and then it's time to go" and then "in just a few more minutes, it'll be time to go and pay for our [stuff] and then we'll get in the car and go home where you can play with your [favorite toy]" ... and continuing on in this fashion until it *really* is the length of time I said and then we leave, with constant reminders of what we'll be doing next... but, my dd is younger than your dc, so I don't know if maybe it won't work as well when she's a little older.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

In toddler-ese, the situation looks a lot different. Mom wanted to go, toddler said no, mom agreed. Mom said time to go, toddler said no, mom agreed. Mom said time to go, toddler said no.......WAIT A MINUTE! WHAT'S MOM DOING?? THAT'S NOT IN THE SCRIPT!

It's inconsistent. GD doesn't mean a lack of boundaries, or that they change constantly leading to nobody knowing what's going on.

Holding firm can be gentle, too. Say you need to leave at 1:00 to be home on time.
At 12:50, set up the situation. "We need to leave soon. What do you want to play with last?"
At 12:55: "5 minutes left! Let's pick up!"
12:57 - "3 minutes!"
12:59 "Say bye-bye to the trains!"
1:00: leave, empathising with upset (but realising limits) toddler.

It gets easier as they get older and more used to the leaving cues.


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

Have you read the book Playful Parenting? I have found it really helpful. When my kids don't want to go somewhere/do something, I try to implement something playful. I might have said something like "Oh good, Noah isn't going to the car so I'll get the cookie all to myself! Yay!" or I may have said "Noah, it's time to go. Do you think you can hop to the door in less than 20 hops?" or we play a game called Blast Off where instead of counting up to do something, I playfully count down and blast off at zero, although I've never actually gotten to that point. So I would say "Noah, I'll bet I can blast off before you're at the door! 20, 19, 18..."

Good for you for looking for another way!


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## Danaoc (Jul 11, 2005)

Dear Mama holly,
So sorry you are having a tough time with your little one. I hear your frustration and I appreciate you looking for support and other solutions. I hope you find something here that works for you 

Keep in mind 2 yo's have NO concept of time. Minutes mean nothing to them, so he's not really getting it when he's given time warnings. Try to give him something more substantial and qualitative. We used "we are going to say good-bye to 2 more toys and then we are leaving." Or "you can bounce the ball 2 more times and then we're leaving." I also used to ask him, "What do you need to do to be ready to leave now?" Also, we used an egg-timer and that worked because they could SEE time.

Also if you can, combat tantrums by going to a sympathetic place with him. If you can try not to look at it as defiance but from his little world, he's really sad to have to leave a fun place. Validate those feelings for him. Let him know, "I know you are feeling upset that we have to go. Maybe we can come back later! How did you like playing with that toy? Do you have a toy like that at home? Which one?" Start making up a story. When I was playful like this and involved my ds, he grabs my hand and walks right out excitedly adding to my story. Your 2 yo might not have this language yet, but give him the language of what he is feeling. If he feels more frustrated because you are reacting in angry way, most likely the tantrums will just get worse.

HTH! Hang in there Mama!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Make a commitment to yourself that you will not spank anymore. You say that you feel guilty about it and it doesn't sound like it is working anyway, yk?

I have spanked my son before, and I felt terrible. It was all about control for me. And losing my temper. Getting so mad that I was going to FORCE him to be obedient







: Makes no sense, and does not work.
I believe that spanking is child abuse, and I have to tell myself that when I feel tempted. I haven't spanked for a long time now...

About what to do instead of spanking, threatening, bribing or being a doormat...You are in the right place!! There is a great Sticky at the top of this page with a wonderful list of Gentle Discipline books. I really like Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn!!! I think it is my favorite parenting book.

There are so many Moms (and Dads too) on this forum that have so much experience and wonderful advice.

In a situation like what you desribed you can give him a heads up that you will be leaving soon, and then when it is time get down on his level and help him transition out of the situation. Mentioning your next destination might help, like saying "Lets go home and read our new books!" or "Lets get home so we can make spaghetti for dinner!" (BIG HAPPY face!!) I am not suggesting bribing, just instead of saying "WE have to leave this fun place" You can say "Hey, lets go do this other really fun thing!"

Try to empathize with him "You really want to stay and play with the trains...don;t worry, we will come back again soon" and try explaining why you need to go. Have him pick out a special place to put the trains he is playing with. That seems to work wonders for kids when leaving also involves leaving a toy behind that they were enjoying.

Basically you have to work with him just like you would try to work with a friend or partner. Try not to use force or manipulation. Just try to see it from his point and work your best angles to get both of you moving toward a common goal. Use as much positive language as possible and try not to say no.

And don't worry what the heck some stranger at the bookstore thinks about your parenting!!!! They aren't going to see you again...you need to worry about what your SON thinks about your parenting. You will likely have this relationship for the rest of your life. And as an adult who was spanked daily as a child, I can say that I still remember it and it is VERY Hard to have a good relationship with my parents.

I hope none of this sounds snarky or like I think I am better than you. You are doing the right thing by trying to find a better way.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Tantrums are normal for toddlers and are not a discipline problem. They are a developmental stage. Don't worry about the tantrums - he'll outgrow them. The hard thing is surviving till then.

Sometimes, you might have to just carry him out to the car while he's having a tantrum. Be gentle and empathize with him, and give him words for how he's feeling. "You're angry that we had to leave." But my best advice is to simply relax about the tantrums. They aren't happening because of anything you've done. They aren't happening because he's bad or naughty. They're happening simply because he's a toddler and toddlers have tantrums. I am not a fan of punishing generally, but punishing for a tantrum will just confuse him. He's having all these new negative emotions he's never had before and they're very confusing to him - creating an event that will cause even more new emotions will be even scarier. Think about how anger feels to someone who doesn't understand it. "How can I have these feelings about mommy when I love her? Do I still love her? Does she still love me?" Kids that age are just learning about anger and it's very scary. Try reassuring him while he's going through it. "You're very angry right now, but we keep loving each other even when we're angry."

Another thing I found useful was rather than talking about what was ending, I'd talk about what was coming up. So rather than, "It's time to leave" I'd say "It's time to go home." Or better yet, if you know what you're likely to do when you get home, "It's time to go home and (do whatever)."


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

It's pretty obvious that spanking isn't working. Aren't things getting worse? Toddlers are tough. If it were me I'd have picked him up and carried him out, kicking and screaming, very calmly. I always give warning "We have to leave in 10 minutes." Then we leave. If i have to carry someone, so be it. actually my 3.5 year old is over the toddler tantrums but it's only a matter of time for my 1 year old!


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## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks for all of the advice. I really appreciate it and will check out that book. Normally I would have just carried him out, but with my baby in a front carry in a wrap, it wasn't possible and really never is when I'm out with both of them (which is all the time). Good to know this is just what toddlers do. All of the other kids just seem to be so well-behaved. He has so much personality and he is so fun, but he's also very intense and dramatic. I know he's going to be an outspoken and opinionated adult, just like me







, I don't know maybe all kids are like that. My mom still tells stories about carrying me out of places, but she spanked, with wooden spoons and switches, so it always had a different ending. Thanks for the alternatives.







And for not flaming me. It's hard to admit sometimes the low points of your parenting.


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## CCChanel (Dec 13, 2006)

Holly try to take a stroller along...and when it's time to go he can be hooked into the seat without having to worry about dropping a squirming screaming child as you pay for your purchases and head (as fast as possible







) to the car.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Here's the thing. You told him twice that you were leaving, but you didn't. So of course all of a sudden when you decide you mean it this time, he flips out because you didn't the other two times. Do not say things you do not mean. I don't mean that you should just say "we're leaving" and swoop him up and leave. In this situation I would have said, "We need to leave soon, this is your chance to play with XYZ toys or say bye to your friends" and in a minute, "After I throw this trash away, we will be leaving" And when it's time, "Ok, say bye, here we go to eat a snack/cookie/ect." Of course, I try not to have too many things scheduled, so we can linger if she's having a good time.

I agree that you need to stop hitting him. For good. Do not entertain the thought of resorting to hitting. It will no longer be an option. If it's not an option, you will be forced to find other ways to work with him. You would not be ok with hitting or being hit by your husband, friends, neighbors, or siblings, it is no different with your son. The people he loves the most, who are his whole world are hurting him. Of course he is angry and confused.

Look at life through his POV. SOOOO many things are out of his control, no wonder he is frustrated! Sometimes I realize just how frustrating life can be for little kids, they aren't big enough, strong enough, smart enough, tall enough. They have to ask for help for virtually everything. They usually have very little say in what happens to them. Imagine living life like that, you would be incredibly frustrated too!

You will find tons of solutions and alternatives for hitting here. And tons of really great ideas for all types of situations. But it comes down to this: Is your son any different from any other human being, just because he is younger? No. He deserves the same amount of dignity and respect. He is worth just as much as you or your husband. His opinions, thoughts, feelings are just as real. And he has the added disadvantage of only being here on this planet for two short years. You are older, more experienced, and should show more patience, love, respect to him. Children learn what they live.


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## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Um, I never said that his opinions, thoughts and feelings weren't real. I never said that he's less of a person or not as worthy just because he's little either.

Besides, I remember reading on here once that instead of always setting absolute boundaries that you should give in sometimes and let them play for a bit longer, or whatever. I mean obviously I misread it, but it's not like I intentionally lied to him.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant that when you really really think about it from his POV, hitting will not even be on the spectrum. By hitting him, you are saying that he doesn't have equal rights as other people. You don't hit other people for not doing what you want, why is it ok for him? I know this is something you are looking to change, so I'm not saying this in a snarky way at all, just giving you something to think about the next time you are tempted to hit. If we remember to treat our children like we do our friends or spouses, we will remember to respect them.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

We cross posted. I dont think you were trying to intentionally lie, but your words and actions were confusing to him. If you say something, mean it. Otherwise when you decide to mean it, he will be confused. I change my mind all the time with dd. I'll say, "hey we need to go" and she protests, I see that it's really important to her to stay, so I say, "you know what, we can swing by the grocery store later. That way we can stay here a bit longer, would you like that?" or, "You seem to really like those toys and it's impotant to stay, so I've changed my mind, let's stay"


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
Look at life through his POV. SOOOO many things are out of his control, no wonder he is frustrated! Sometimes I realize just how frustrating life can be for little kids, they aren't big enough, strong enough, smart enough, tall enough. They have to ask for help for virtually everything. They usually have very little say in what happens to them. Imagine living life like that, you would be incredibly frustrated too!

This was so good to read. It's a good reminder for me. Thank you.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested I write down all the things that are out of dd's control, that she tries but can't do, needs help with, ect for one day. I did it for a few hours and filled up two pages worth!







And we are pretty consentual in our parenting, so it's not like she was up against arbituary bounderies. It really opened my eyes to her world and made me MUCH more empathetic to her frustrations and protests.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm not a patient person, and I'm not patient enough to take time out of my day to spank a kid who won't listen to me. My 2 year old doesn't want to leave when its time to leave? I pick him up and carry his protesting, thrashing body to the car, put him in the carseat, and away we go. I used to do the waiting thing, but my life doesn't often allow for that now. "Come on Paddy, time to go." Paddy stands there, looking at me like he doesn't know what he's supposed to do. "Come on, time to leave." And this can go on and on for five minutes. I don't have 5 minutes. I've found that it's better to be direct with him, hold his hand and lead him towards the door. Since I've taken this "impatient" approach, I've noticed far less tantrums ( although admittedly Paddy never did have many of them ) You can also try non-cooperation, or just plain ignoring the tantrums. Once the kid figures out that screaming and throwing themselves on the ground doesn't get your attention, they'll stop doing it.
I think the best thing to keep in mind when the child is having a tantrum is "spanking will only make this WORSE". When you hit the child, you're just fueling an already heated situation, and its going to take even longer to cool off. In other words, spanking gets you nowhere fast, and all respect and ethical issues aside, I'd say that is the best argument for not doing it.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
just plain ignoring the tantrums. Once the kid figures out that screaming and throwing themselves on the ground doesn't get your attention, they'll stop doing it.

*shudders*

Sorry to derail, but I would NOT recommend this approach AT ALL.

It sounds eerily like the CIO advice from people for infants, only framed for a toddler.

Anytime a toddler is experiencing strong emotions, they are communicating a need. Even if we don't know what the need is, or it doesn't seem relevent to us, it is of great importance to them and that should be honored (imo) -- not ignored.

You're wanting to find ways to build more trust, connection, and attachment so you are more in sync with what your child is needing and he is more in sync with your cues and methods so you work together more fluidly. Ignoring a child's needs, or hitting them when you become frustrated is not the way to do that. I am not flaming you, just a gentle reminder









Make a commitment not to hit your son again. EVER. That is the first step. Things will be wonky for a while as you learn methods for coping with not only his behavior, but with yourself and your own emotions surrounding situations.

Stick around, read read read... post, ask questions. Be specific with situations you are dealing with (as you were in your post) -- you will get tons of ideas.

Please make a commitment to stop hitting your son. You feel badly about it for a reason. You're supposed to instinctually protect and nurture and you are going against your instincts when you hit him.

This is the beginning of a whole different pattern in your family and your life. Congratulations!! You will thank yourself and your child will thank you


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

No worked for him the first time so ... he expects it to keep working... I see howyou are trying to be someone he can reason with - but he may not know that.

I'm no expert so take it with a grain of salt but I'm thinking you need to let him hear your thoughts... "ok mommy hears you say you'd like to stay longer, is that what you mean by no..." wait for an answer "well I think maybe right now your request is ok for us because we are no tin a hurry - we can stay five more minutes, I'll let you know when you have two minutes left.:" Enter into count down mode.

also we have a relative who won't let the whole spanking thing just drop.... My side of it is this - they literally don't hear all the effort you put into talkig things out with child and husband - they don't get that you are trying to respect him as a person... trying to teach him to respect others....

another thing... there have been times that ds here has thrown a temper tantrum and right infront of dh and everything I throw a full on impersonation... not to be cruel and make fun... but it helps me release stress, ds thinks it's funny, he probably sees how weird it looks and it totally distracts him in the moment. MY husband says I get and oscar... I think it is the throwing myself on the floor and writhing that does it....

Maybe in safe company you could pull this one out on your dc - suddenly it is not about the object or event... it becomes all about who is being more rediculous and everyone seems to win if mom can win that...


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

oh mama - i've SOOO been there! sometimes you just need to scoop your toddler up and walk out while they are upset. people may look at ya, but most of them aren't judging you.
.....and for the few who are judging - who cares! they can look at this









just remember - you need to stay calm even though your child isn't. when my son has had tantrums, he is completely unreasonable....so trying to reason with someone who's unreasonable just causes my blood to BOIL! i learned quickly a new method. i give a 5 minute warning and then a 1 minute warning. another mom here had a great idea about a timer that the child could visually see when the time was up (like a sand timer thing). then instead of saying - it's time to go now....try saying something like, "who wants to make a choo choo train out to the car??" you can pick him up and make train sounds the whole way out of the store or something. if he's having a tantrum and you know he's not going to calm down, just gently scoop him up and calmly tell him you love him and understand he's upset as you leave the store. he WILL outgrow it - honest. my son is 3 1/2 now and never (KNOCK ON WOOD!) has tantrums like that anymore. even though you can't physically separate from your son at that moment to calm yourself down - try to mentally remove yourself a little to keep from getting really upset with him







big hugs mama!

__________________________________________________ _____

i just saw that you have a baby in a sling too - so i understand scooping him up isn't a real option. maybe giving him something to "help" you with as you leave the store. my son loves to be my big helper, and would gladly carry something for me or wave by to people for me, etc. is this an option for you perhaps?


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
Besides, I remember reading on here once that instead of always setting absolute boundaries that you should give in sometimes and let them play for a bit longer, or whatever. I mean obviously I misread it, but it's not like I intentionally lied to him.

you probably did read that on MDC mama, and the way you interpreted it was probably just the way it was meant. even though most of the mamas here are GD, we all implement it differently....thus all the wonderful "discussions" and debates you read here daily


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

One thing that helps my DS transition between events or objects is to say goodbye to them and discuss how we'll interact with them tomorrow, next week, later, whatever. He doesn't always like it but it seems to help him move on, and at the very least does a *lot* to avoid TTs. I keep it very simple "we'll play with the trains next week, can you say goodbye? We'll see them next week". YMMV.


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## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant that when you really really think about it from his POV, hitting will not even be on the spectrum. By hitting him, you are saying that he doesn't have equal rights as other people. You don't hit other people for not doing what you want, why is it ok for him? I know this is something you are looking to change, so I'm not saying this in a snarky way at all, just giving you something to think about the next time you are tempted to hit. If we remember to treat our children like we do our friends or spouses, we will remember to respect them.

OK, I understand what you're saying. I appreciate your comments. I don't look at it from his point of view enough at all. Writing down everything he doesn't have control over sounds like a good exercise. Thanks everyone!


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I've been tempted to spank, and also have family members telling me I should, and in fact I have given in and slapped DS's bottom once or twice--and you know what--it DIDN'T HELP. It didn't change anything. like in the situation you describe, how did spanking help get you out of the store in a calm quiet manner? It didn't, right? for that reason, if no other, spanking is completely useless.

DS has been there, done that. At times I have had to carry him out, writhing and noodly and kicking and screaming.

Here's some things that help us.
1. Give him warnings before it's time to go, like at the park last night I told him we needed to go soon, he wanted to swing, so I said, we'll leave after you're done swinging. At the store you could have said he could look at one more book. And then follow through. Or if you're going to give it make it time specific--okay, another book and that's that.

2. Programming helps, all last night i told DS, first we'll have dinner, then we'll make cookies, then we'll watch a movie. Well he wanted to watch TV first, so I just repeated, FIRST dinner, then cookies, then tv. He got it.

3. Make leaving fun, talk about the things you're going to do as you're leaving or when you get home "when we go home you can take a bath with LOTS of bubbles" Leaving the park I tell DS "on the way home let's look and see if there are any squirrels around". Or leave in a silly way, like by hopping or walking backwards.

These things actually work. Spanking just doesn't!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemyfamily6* 
Have you read the book Playful Parenting? I have found it really helpful. When my kids don't want to go somewhere/do something, I try to implement something playful

I also recommend "Playful parenting". I think in the situation, it is useful to use play to really and deeply connect to your child. Like, when it is a good half an hour before it is time to go, play with him. And then the game gets into good motion and you can use the game scenario as an exit strategy, as well. Like, my almost 5 yo dd really dislikes the transition to bed in the evening. I know this, and I anticipate it. I play a fantasy game with her, where she is a princess or a lioness or whatever and I wholeheartedly play with her for a while but then the princess suddenly has swallowed some bugs and we need to wash her teeth asap and gosh what happened to your princely feet how did they become black and without noticing it we'e in bed already. I both like and dislike this approach, because at age 5 I would like her to be more responsible for some things, but I am trying to build her responsibilities more in areas that are less conflictual and less touchy for her than going to bed. Now with a two year old, fantasy play has not yet developed but if he is playing with a train, the train can suddenly leave with him on board to go to... the car!


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## astrophe27 (Aug 27, 2007)

Does he get enough run around time? Because that is when mine flips out.

I know she has a 2 place limit. After that she MUST have run around time, and I have to fit in a playground stop (15 - 20 min) for her to run around and blow some steam before I try to hit the third errand. And I limit us to three, though I prefer two. Form her POV it's been sit in the car seat, sit in the bank, sit in the grocery, sit and sit and sit. It's boring to them. If I have to hit more than three places, I try to get a sitter.

We started using a beeper with ours too. It keeps her honest and it keeps US honest. Because when you tell a kid "Ok, in just a minute!" is it really 60 seconds later that you go see what the wanted or do you fob her off? If you fob, then you can't blame her for doing it to you. So we started setting the timer on our watches and when it beeps, that is it. We do the thing agreed upon. There's no need for discussion.

You have to be careful handling tantrums because you don't want to accidentally teach them that to get their own way they can just kick up a big ol' fuss. I used to just sit down where we were and just offer support by BEING there and she got through the tantrum. Or if violent/destructive, I'd have to hold her. We started teaching her feeling words ASAP so we could ask her how she was feeling and she could talk her way through it. That helped too.

GL!
A.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Sometimes, you might have to just carry him out to the car while he's having a tantrum.

I agree. OP, DS is *4* and we recently went to Barnes and Nobles (Jr. for him) where he immediately went towards the train table.

When it was time to leave, I had to do the above. He cried all the way home. Distraction did.not.work.

I called DH from my cell and told him to meet me outside because I was about to snap







and "come and get your son"

So, I'm not going back to B&N for awhile. DS cannot handle leaving.

If I were you, I'd withhold visits as well.


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## purposefulmother (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm sorry your little one is giving you stress!

You've gotten lots of good advice, and I'll chime in with a couple of things...
1: You're not parenting the people in the store. At that moment, they don't count.

2: Toddlers are great little scientists. They need to gather LOTS of data. So, the data gathering can be frustrating. Mama said it's time to go... does she mean it's time to go when I'm still playing with trains? She doesn't? What about when I'm finishing eating? No? Ok... wait a minute... NOW she means it!!! What's going on?? They are trying to make sense of everything and they need MANY opportunities to experience something before they can categorize it. They are great at finding loopholes and testing -- that's their job.

3: About spanking: Please, when you feel the urge to do that, STOP. Remind yourself you are the adult. Remind yourself the tantrum won't last. Think of how you would feel if someone else were to hit your child. When a parent feels angry and out of control, things can escalate, and once you act, you can never undo things.

4: Would it help if you can change how you are thinking about him? It seems like you are thinking, I can't control him...everyone thinks I'm a bad mama. This may sound radical, but I tell other parents to stop trying to control their children. You can't, and you'll end up in a battle of wills. Instead, when he is nearing meltdown, or already there, try to let go of the sense that he is defying you/being disobedient. Instead, think of how awful it must feel to be that out - of - control. If you were that angry, what would help you? Not someone spanking you, or yelling. Maybe you need someone to hold you and talk gently; maybe you need someone to take you to a private place where you can let out your anger; maybe you need someone to distract you with tickles and kisses; maybe you just need someone to say, "it's ok, I know you're mad; it's ok to be mad, but we are going home."

Good luck -- I applaud you for trying to find a different solution.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I agree. OP, DS is *4* and we recently went to Barnes and Nobles (Jr. for him) where he immediately went towards the train table.

When it was time to leave, I had to do the above. He cried all the way home. Distraction did.not.work.

I called DH from my cell and told him to meet me outside because I was about to snap







and "come and get your son"

So, I'm not going back to B&N for awhile. DS cannot handle leaving.

If I were you, I'd withhold visits as well.

OMG, I am not going to a certain mall for that very reason as well. It is not on my list of stops (and will not be for a LONG time). DD had the biggest meltdown in the history of man when I tried to leave. NOTHING WORKED. I had to strap a stiff-as-a-board toddler screaming and crying in the car seat and leave (after 30 minutes of trying EVERYTHING to get her to sit down so I could buckle up).

After that meltdown, I told DH I was not leaving the house with her again until she was a teenager. I was almost serious.

But in retrospect, I realize her meltdown was completely my fault.

Here is why:

It was 2 pm and she naps at 12noon. She was way overtired.

She was hungry. We have lunch between 1p and 2p.

She was in the stroller most of the time we were there (she asked to be in it) but she needed to run around more. She had zero play time all day. She needs physical activity (as others mentioned).

So now, I am more aware when I could have a possible eruption on my hands and try to avoid missing the cues if possible. That does not always work but it lessens some of it a bit.

Tantrums are infrequent with my DD but I can see them increasing over time. She is 22 months.


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

Quote:

Besides, I remember reading on here once that instead of always setting absolute boundaries that you should give in sometimes and let them play for a bit longer, or whatever.
Wow. That's about the worst advice I ever heard for the parent of a two year old! Maybe when a child is old enough to reason and negotiate and can say "hey, can I have ten more minutes, then I'll help with dinner when we get home?" But at two? Disaster.

Two year olds are figuring things out. Does "time to go" really mean "time to go"? Can a temper tantrum or protest keep us here for hours? What happens when I stick a pin in an electrical socket? (this is why we childproof for little ones, right?)

When you tell him "it's time to go" or "don't hit your sister" or "you can't play in the street" you aren't done. You *also* have to tell him through your actions what it means when you say that. He is two - he doesn't know this yet.

There are many other ways you can be respectful of his needs and desires and immaturity, as other posted upthread. Give him some notice before you go. Tell him what the schedule is ahead of time. But don't confuse with giving in and then NOT giving in. Not before he's 8 or 9 anyway!


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## Danaoc (Jul 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adastra* 
Wow. That's about the worst advice I ever heard for the parent of a two year old! Maybe when a child is old enough to reason and negotiate and can say "hey, can I have ten more minutes, then I'll help with dinner when we get home?" But at two? Disaster.

Yes, this advice was probably brought relatedly into this discussion but specifically referred to in another discussion when kids are older and their concepts of time & reason more mature. I agree that for two year olds this would not really work all the time - they need more qualitative and concrete guidance. Instead of using "We can stay five more minutes" at 2, we used a lot of "Say good-bye to 2 more toys." But the give & take is starting to work for my 3.5 yo. All his requests are very reasonable, and it is nice to have a family dynamic that flows super easy since we're not rigid parents and he knows we respect his wishes too. It's not about giving in for us - it's about working with him. This does not have to happen as late as 8 or 9 years.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I disagree that ignoring a tantruming 2 year old is like CIO. This is an example of "know your child." My 1st didn't want to be comforted, or have her feelings validated, during a tantrum. She didn't want reasoning or empathy. She wanted to sit in a corner and screech out her frustration. Trying to comfort her prolonged things and made her angrier. So I told her to get it out, and come sit with me when she felt better. This worked for us. It was what she needed.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

You've gotten some great suggestion, I just wanted to add a couple thoughts.

I think of tantrums as a pressure-relief valve. When the child becomes so overwhelmed by their feelings that they just cannot function anymore, they have to let it out! And once it is *all* let out, it's like they hit the reset button and they can handle stuff again. Eventually they will develop the skills to deal with their feelings so they don't reach the meltdown point, but that comes with time, understanding, and maturity.

We do the "five minutes left" thing with my 4 yo and 2 yo. I think I may have started when ds was 2 though. I count down- "four minutes left", "two minutes left", and then "One minute left. What song would you like to sing?" Currently our choices are twinkle, twinkle little star or Bob the Builder. When we first started though, I'd just say "One minute left! We'll sing twinkle, twinkle little star and then we'll leave." This has worked REALLY well for us- the singing as we pack up to go seems to add another dimension that we really needed. Sure I feel dumb singing Bob the Builder at the bookstore, or the park, or the toystore, but in general I then have two cheerful children who walk out the door with me instead of screaming about how they don't want to go. And that is well worth it!

Good luck! You'll figure it all out and be a pro before you know it!


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetw&e* 

I think of tantrums as a pressure-relief valve. When the child becomes so overwhelmed by their feelings that they just cannot function anymore, they have to let it out! And once it is *all* let out, it's like they hit the reset button and they can handle stuff again. Eventually they will develop the skills to deal with their feelings so they don't reach the meltdown point, but that comes with time, understanding, and maturity.


ITA!

there's a great article on MDC that discusses this very thing


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

Quote:

All his requests are very reasonable, and it is nice to have a family dynamic that flows super easy since we're not rigid parents and he knows we respect his wishes too. It's not about giving in for us - it's about working with him.
I'm completely and absolutely on board with this.

But it's very different from telling a child "it's time to go" or "don't throw your food on the floor" or "no hitting".....and then giving in if the child want to stay or toss food or clock his playmate with a toy.

If there is something you need your child to do, present it as such and don't "give in".

If it's not an absolute, if your child has choices, if your course of action is going to be determined by their preferences, that's great, but you should communicate that to your child very differently.

It's just a courtesy to your child, really. Unless everything is negotiable - and I realize it is for some parents, but not for all of us - it's only fair to indicate what's up for negotiation and what's not.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
ITA!

there's a great article on MDC that discusses this very thing









LOL, I knew I hadn't come up with it myself, just couldn't remember where I read it (and therefore couldn't say where it came from). But keeping that thought in my mind does really help!









ETA after re-reading the article to make sure I wasn't plagarizing- it's actually the pressure-relief valve analogy that's helpful to me. Or thinking of them as a windows program that finally gets so confused and worked up that it has to stop, debug, and reset before you can even think about using it in a logical manner.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

Tantrums suck! I think we have all had this experience at least once. What I recomend is next time let him know you are leaving "Noah we are leaving in 10 mins, you can keep playing but we are leaving soon" then again "Noah its almost time to go, when we leave you can have your cookie in the car, but there is only 5 mins left." and then finally "Ok, wasnt that fun? Lets go get that cookie in the car."

Warnings help so much for spirited kids. It prepares them for the change. All swatting him does is make you upset that you hit him, he isnt effected by it at all, and it doesnt teach him anything.

Good Luck mama! And remember this too shall pass someday he will be 5 and things will be easier lol.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey Holly,

Just one more book suggestion, I think there's actually a thread going on about it right now -- Elizabeth Pantley's "Kid Cooperation". It's a fast read w/lots of concrete examples of what to do in XYZ situation, and why.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

When it is time to go, we go. Tantrum or not. The tantrum is what it is...just part of my day, I just work around it and go on. I verbally acknowledge the feelings....oh, it's hard to leave something that is fun..we will come back here and play again another time......but I just go. I don't feel there is any reason to get mad or work up to a tantrum of my own. I don't get upset about the tantrum. It's just something kids do, and it's not a reflection on me or on them and I really don't care what other people think about my child's tantrum. It's just kind of there. I think maybe not giving a tantrum any special emotional response (like me getting angry, embarrassed, frustrated) kind of defuses it. To me it's just steam my child needs to blow off. It's not something I need to get upset about. I just accept it for what it is and go on....while speaking softly and hanging on to a kicking and screaming child over my shoulder if necessary.


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