# Could we have a very politically incorrect discussion about sexuality?



## Shakti (Nov 20, 2001)

Some background: I have been a member of mothering.com for about 14 years but have not posted in about 10 years. I am a single mom with a 14 year old girl. We co-slept, homeschooled, breast fed until she was 2 1/2, refused vacs, etc. I am 57 - an 'older' mom. I am straight. I know that because I have never had a desire to kiss another person of the same sex. I was absolutely a tomboy in an age when bisexuality was not discussed, nor was it even a part of my consciousness. I do not feel deprived or repressed about my own sexuality. I am not homophobic. My daughter and I are both very involved with a church that has a gay pastor. 

As a toddler and girl, my daughter insisted on wearing dresses, and was quite the girly girl. We moved to a new city, only a half hour drive from where we used to live, when she was 10. She just happened to fall in with a group of friends that are gay or bisexual or pansexual. She now says that she is bisexual. I am sort of OK with that. I will even use male pronouns if that is what she wants, but she is (right now) very clear that she prefers female pronouns. 

I understand that being bi-curious is 'normal,' though I don't remember ever going through that phase even though I was a tomboy. If she truly is bi or pan, to be honest, I could not say that I would not be disappointed, but I can say that I will still love her unconditionally. My disappointment would come from *my* expectation of having a son-in-law not being realized. I am aware that that is my issue to deal with, and not hers. But... I cannot help but think that if she had fallen in with a different group of friends that things would have been very different. What really bothers me is that it seems to be the 'in' thing to be something other than straight. I can't get the word 'phase' out of my internal vocabulary.

We do not have an adversarial relationship, and we talk pretty well. Today, I asked her if she is attracted to someone. She said no. I asked her, out of curiosity, how does she know if she is bisexual if she is not attracted to someone. That was apparently the wrong question to ask! I also (gently) suggested that she might not want to use the word bisexual to describe herself because that description might change with time. She rather angrily said, "Ok! Today I am bisexual!" Did I say something wrong?!? 

I did a search on this forum for 'bisexual' and was astounded to find NOTHING in the search results! Any thoughts or experiences or suggestions that you would like to share would be appreciated. Please no flaming - I am asking to have a very open discussion about sexuality for today's teens. I am turning to you, younger moms, for discussion and guidance. Sorry this is so long!


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## LTurtle (Aug 7, 2012)

I am a mom of a (straight) tween girl. I am married to a man. I am also bisexual (I prefer to identify as queer) and I came out at 14. I think you may be a little confused about some of the terms you are using, such as bisexual/pansexual/transgender. I say this not to be critical, but in the interest of helping you understand what your daughter is going through and what she is talking about.

Bisexual means attracted to or romantically interested in both males and females. It has nothing to do with gender identity (pronouns) or gender roles (tomboyishness). A bisexual girl could easily grow up to get married and have kids, and likely will.

Pansexual means attracted to or romantically interested in males, females and people who identify as both or neither. 

Transgender is someone who identifies as a different gender than their biological sex and may use non-conforming pronouns. This is very different from sexual orientation.

It is possible that your daughter is going through a phase of self exploration that has been influenced by her new friends. Possible, but very unlikely. Please don't tell your daughter that you think her identifying as bi is a phase. Even if you're right, SHE believes it's true right now and you will only alienate her. 

The best way to encourage your daughter's personal growth and continue having an open, positive relationship with her is to reassure her of your love and acceptance. Whether she continues to identify as bi in adulthood or not, this is a time of great turmoil for her. She needs to know that you are still her safe harbor, and also that you trust and respect her. She will only know that if you tell her/show her repeatedly and often. 

When I came out to my dad at 15 he denied what I was telling him, saying it was "not true" or "only a phase". It felt like rejection, not of my sexuality but of me. I see now that it wasn't that way at all for him, but at the time it hurt and it damaged our relationship for years.

I can tell you are an engaged and loving mother. I can also tell you only want the best for your child. I would be happy to answer any questions on this subject, either here or via pm.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Sorry, I'm not much younger than you (I'm 51), but my eldest (now 21) is bisexual. 

Sexual attraction is very different from gender identity. If your dd identifies as bisexual, that in itself is no reason to consider using male pronouns. Has she ever expressed feeling like she is actually a boy? One's gender identity is a separate issue from the gender one is attracted to.

I also don't think that just because she's bisexual is any reason to assume you'll never have a son-in-law. How do you know that if she is bisexual and chooses to marry, it won't be to a man? And if the subtext here is that you want grandchildren, that's possible in any scenario, regardless of sexual orientation, regardless of family composition. 

I believe there are some good studies that suggest that up to 30-40% of women, even self-identified straight women, admit they have experienced sexual attraction to women. Women are more than twice as likely to be bisexual than lesbian. It's not confusion ... it's just how a lot of women are wired. Rather than worrying that your dd is just adopting the orientation-du-jour, I'd be grateful that she's found a group of friends who do not make her feel ashamed of her attractions. She may ultimately identify differently as she gets older, matures, enters into a relationship ... but that doesn't mean she's wrong about what she's experiencing now. She's right, she's "Bisexual today." 

And I highly doubt this:

"She just happened to fall in with a group of friends that are gay or bisexual or pansexual."

I expect that she chose to align herself with the LGBT social circle at her new school because she understood that they would accept her for who she is. Most gays and lesbians have at least a strong inkling of their homosexuality from the earliest stages of adolescence, if not before. 

I imagine that you have felt rather blind-sided by this and are having difficulty processing your new reality and the implications of it. I would urge you to accept your dd's declaration as fact and support her as best you can. You might find some good resources through PFLAG.org. I would wager that there are thousands of times as many LGBT people who were terribly hurt when their parents tried to suggest that their sexual orientation was "just a phase" than there are those who were hurt because their parents supported them when they went through some adolescent confusion surrounding their sexuality and ended up being straight. If you believe there's the possibility of a mistake, choose err on the side of acceptance and support. It's not going to turn your daughter lesbian if she isn't one already!

Miranda


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## Shakti (Nov 20, 2001)

Thank you both for your compassionate and thoughtful replies. This has helped tremendously. I will admit that I have been confused about the terms, and this has cleared up a lot for me. Thankfully, I instinctively did not use the word "phase" in any of my discussions with her. I am an attentive enough parent to know that the use of that word is seldom beneficial. 

LTurtle, thank you for your acknowledgement that I am an engaged and loving mother. I cried and cried when I read that. I needed that affirmation.

moominmamma, you are correct in that I have been blind-sided by this. Just one of the perils of being an 'older' Mom! And yes, I am grateful that she has friends who do not make her feel ashamed of her attractions. And I am grateful that I, as the parent, am able to see that if there are hang-ups or issues here, they are mostly with me. 

Thank you again for your compassionate and non-judgemental replies.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Hi Shakti! I actually remember you from back then The ladies above have given good advice and I'll 2nd the pflag suggestion. Hanging out with someone who is gay will not make you gay. It's quite possible that she felt drawn to these kids because they understood her. I know in jr/high school there were 4 of us that hung together, of that group only one ended up identifying as straight, none came out until after graduation. In our larger social circle I'd say 75% came out as something other then cis and straight after graduation. It's a birds of a feather kinda thing None of us admitted what we were until we'd gotten out of school and we'd all been friends and best friends since 5th grade! I would be more worried about coming out in high school is you live a homophobic area.


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## Skeamum (Mar 24, 2015)

It sounds like you are doing a great job. I think it's normal to be a bit 'blindsided' by a child's coming out. My daughter (now 15) told me she thought she might be bisexual when she was 13. We have absolutely no problem with anyone being LGBT, but I didn't expect it, it came out of the blue, and it definitely took me some time to process it. DD now (and for the past year) as identified as gay - which didnt' take as long to process, as we already knew she was at the very least bisexual. It doesn't make you a bad parent to be taken unaware by that particular declaration. It's how you respond and support your daughter now that matters.  


I do think it is very important for kids who identify as LGBT to find their own 'community' of people who really understand. As supportive as we may be as parents, there are things that we possibly don't really 'get' because we haven't experienced it. It can be very difficult for any teenager to feel 'different' about anything (they all desperately want to fit in, don't they?) - so finding other teens who have the same attractions has got to be so affirming - and don't we all need that? Hugs to you. :smile:


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

By the way, I don't think it's at all politically incorrect to say "my daughter is identifying as bisexual and I'm having trouble understanding and coping." It's honest, it's frank, and it's exactly the sort of open-minded questioning of one's own assumptions that the world needs in order to become a better place for all kinds of people.



Miranda


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I have always been jealous of people who are bisexual, they have the best of both worlds. And certainly, if she is bisexual, she is into men too, so there's a good chance of a son in law down the line, and every chance of grandchildren. (Btw, why do you care if you have a son in law or not?) 
I know what you mean about being a tomboy, i was one too. People would often assume i might be bi myself, because of my somewhat alternative ways, and sexually positive nature. i have to say, that the most sexually positive people i have met, are bi. But I am not. Im definitely into men, not women. ( the majority of people i met in the polyamory world are bi, much to my surprise, but you could see the logic)

I say, let her explore her world in a sexually positive way, and if she is bi, then all the more interesting for her. As long as she is practising safe and consensual sex, then the best thing to do is the keep the doors of communication open.


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## Shakti (Nov 20, 2001)

Thank you again for your comments and support! (And a wave to Satori. Yes, I remember you, too! It seems I come here at times of stress - birth, divorce and teenager.:wink It actually does help to know that I am not a bad person for needing time to process this. 

Note to self: hang out at mothering.com more often!


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

It might be a phase. So what? As long as she's not making any permanent, life-changing decisions- there isn't much danger in it. Just make sure your sex talk includes emphasizing that safe sex isn't just "pregnancy prevention" and that STDs can be spread between women.

She may get her heart broken. She may break a few hearts. But that's part of life. Especially of being a teenager. Teenagers naturally try on different identities, it's a GOOD thing that that includes sexual identities. Your daughter feels safe to explore the idea that she might be attracted to women without fear of repercussion. And, yes, she gets a little sensitive when her current identity is questioned. Again- most teenagers do. DP has a teenage niece who's in a major vegan anti-meat phase. She may not even be vegetarian in 5 years, but don't you dare suggest that to her now!

Trying on different identities is entirely developmentally normal.


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## DungeonQueen (May 2, 2014)

Thank you for the wonderful thread ladies, I have a 15yo daughter who is identifying as Pan at the moment and possibly leaning towards Tran so I found your discussions very supportive and informative. I'm a young mother so I've stayed pretty open about sexuality with my kids but I find it helpful to know that there are other moms here on MDC that are going/gone through these things so I feel like I have support when I need it.


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## robin3 (May 5, 2007)

Wow, I haven't been on here in FOREVER and I came right to what I needed! I am 56, have two adult kids and a 15 year old. My child came out to us at the beginning of this year as pansexual, then gender fluid and is now identifying as trans-female. Still pansexual. Been quite a roller coaster ride! We are very accepting of who and whatever our child is but I do worry about the rest of society. I know it's becoming more accepted but there is still an incredible amount of stigma. We are fortunate that the school she attends is a performing arts and technology magnet and no one has batted an eye so far. She is fearless! Mom and dad, not so much!
My husband and I are both trained Our Whole Lives instructors so we are very open in our household about sexuality. It's still scary, though, when your child is going SO against the perceived "norm". 
An organization that has been very helpful for us is genderspectrum.org. We attended their family conference in July and found it very helpful and comforting. 
Anyway, thanks for a great topic!:grin:


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## Mylie (Mar 15, 2004)

I wouldn't question her reasons...it will just make her feel like you dissaprove and upset her...I would just listen when she wants to talk and continue parenting...parenting a straight teen comes with the same rules as a bisexual one..my son came out as bisexual at 14...I had no issues and never batted an eye...at the time I actually had other things going on..lol...he is 26 now and still identifies as bi...while he has been in many more relationships with females there has been a few males...

I still don't bat an eye...Love is love...


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I'm another mothering oldster. Haven't posted in a few years, but this topic has been weighing on my mind. 

Puberty can be tough with your body changing and getting hairy in places where there wasn't hair before. I am totally supportive of queer kids and straight kids and kids who haven't figured it out yet as they navigate being teenagers and transitioning toward adulthood. It's a hard time for so many.

One thing I wanted to bring up is that I think teens today, especially in progressive communities IRL or online, have a whole lot more permissible choices than we used to in a more repressive era. I think overall this is a great thing, but individually it can be difficult for teens who aren't confident in themselves. Here in our progressive town, I know sooooo many kids today who don't identify as straight. It's almost like it seems unenlightened to be just ordinary and straight. Although I i.d. as straight, I'm definitely open to the idea that sexual orientation can be a spectrum instead of a set of boxes (straight/gay). No reason someone can't be romantically attracted to people of all genders.

I think it's very typical for many teens to feel uncomfortable in their own skin. I do think that some teens may be drawn to a QSA club or a queer-identifying group of friends because they too feel different and don't fit the advertisers' ideal of a model teen (who does?!), so they gravitate away from that, flounder around trying to "find their tribe", and toward something that seems more welcoming and less threatening. Obviously firmly queer kids are there, too, but I do think some kids who are exploring and trying to figure themselves out may latch onto being queer or transgender as "maybe that's why I'm different". I don't think these floundering kids would have identified as readily as queer or trans back in the old repressive days. I know kids who have self-diagnosed themselves with the help of the internet with various physical and mental ailments, too, and I think in some cases kids are diagnosing themselves as being queer or trans as part of trying to figure themselves out.

I do know kids who as teens, though, are exploring the idea of being transgender when they did not have any affinity at all for the other gender earlier in their lives. And I have a little more trouble with this exploring because it does seem more like a phase and it's tricky to find a middle ground. Obviously the kids are having a rough time figuring themselves out, but at the same time if you're just sort of playing around with the idea of being transgender it seems almost disrespectful to kids who really do feel stuck in the wrong body. Being "bi-curious" doesn't seem a very big deal any more, but being "trans-curious" is a lot trickier. It's harder to leave yourself an escape hatch if you change your mind. I'm not really sure what the best way to go about that is. Anyone have any thoughts on that?


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

It can be hard to identify gender affinity earlier. Kids pick up on gender stereotypes before they can talk, a LOT of trans people report their earliest memories being knowing their gender AND knowing they're bad for it.

Kids born with a penis face stronger gender correction, so they're less likely to feel safe expressing their gender. And it's not just physical, kids pick up on things. Offhand, thoughtless comments that we think don't matter tend to stick ("oh no, that's for girls" while trying to rush a fussy toddler out of the toy aisle). 

Kids born with a vulva get more freedom, usually, so they can feel less disconnect. I've seen a LOT of trans guys who assumed they'd grow a penis during puberty. They were allowed to express their gender however they wanted, so it wasn't a big deal until puberty happened.

Most people would look at me from the outside and say I was an example of a teen who "suddenly" became trans. I love dressing up in pretty, flamboyant dresses. I didn't really have the words to express my discontent with gender so I just pretended it didn't exist. Then puberty happened and I went into a horrible spiral because of all the WRONG going on. Almost a decade after coming out and I still don't know what to do about transition, and my gender hasn't changed.

A lot of trans people are still trans, but they aren't out about it, they dont transition. They have a circle of confidantes that know, but can live pretending to be their birth sex. To an outsider, that looks like "changed their mind" when it's actually more like "our society isn't safe so if you can stand pretending to be cis you'll be safer". Even if they end up retreating back into the closet, being able to spend their teen years authentically is less traumatic.

Transgender is complex. It's not just "man trapped in a woman's body". It's also "I'm not a man or a woman", "sometimes I'm one sometimes I'm another", "I'm really both", "I'm a man with a vulva and damn proud of it and my skirts". I know someone whose official description of their gender is "confused shrug". They've been slowly coming to terms with their gender over the last decade and still aren't really sure what they are, they just know that they aren't a man and they're really uncomfortable with themself.

How do you recognize that in a 5 year old, exactly? And how do you recognize the 5 year olds who've already carefully constructed masks out of fear? 

I'm sure there are some people who try it when it isn't right. And I don't think that's a problem. It's no different from going through a goth or vegan phase, trying on different religions. With luck, it'll expand their empathy and worldview.
And if they want to move to physically changing, puberty blockers let kids delay decisions without serious long term repercussions, there are trained specialists who generally are quite good at recognizing the legitimate from the people just trying on a new look. 

And at some point, teens are responsible for their own life and choices. Starting medical treatment under trained specialists isn't worse than a lot of the other short sighted choices teens make.

Plenty of teenagers get into illegal drugs, unprotected sex, drinking and driving. I had a friend who, at 11, pierced her own belly button and know someone who gave her friends tattoos with a needle and ink. Teenagers do dangerous, foolhardy things. Gender is the new area of rebellion. There are many worse things than having a daughter with a buzz cut or son in a dress.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I've been thinking about this thread more.

Not to get too into specifics, but I have a friend who's daughter recently came out as transgender, but my friend (and I) really think it's more experimentation. Her daughter (now starting to identify as male, but still female at school, so I think it's okay to use the female here) was never a tomboy and always into girly play (ballet, princesses, etc). She has gotten really sucked into the internet in the past few years and Tumblr in particular and I think she found a friendly trans crowd there.

Anyway, I don't know what will happen there - if she will do a full transition or if it's just some exploring and figuring things out, but her parents while being supportive are pretty messed up about it. I've been trying to research stuff online to see if I can offer any support and found a couple of sites I wanted to put out here for anyone else who might stumble on this thread. They are from folks who detransitioned (transitioned and then changed their minds).

http://4thwavenow.com/
http://thissoftspace.tumblr.com
http://thirdwaytrans.com/2015/12/03/where-did-i-go/#comments

hth


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I think that beanma touched on something that again, is not politically correct to say necessarily, but....I have college age kids. In our local very progressive university, the way that both gender issues and issues of sexual identity have played out, is that 'ordinary' straight, cis-gender kids definitely don't feel "hip." It can feel sometimes to them that you are not progressive enough if you are comfortable in your gender and sexual identity. I think this is a cultural phenomenon that is sort of like a pendulum swinging too far before coming to rest---in that it is good for young people who are questioning or feeling a different emerging identity to know that they are comfortable, accepted, "home," but it can be even somewhat alienating for those who are not questioning. Even the term "gender-conforming" makes some people feel like a loser. What teenager or young adult wants to be told they are a conformist!! I just wanted to throw this into the mix. I am learning. I have loved ones outside immediate family that are questioning/nonconforming, so to some extent this is personal, and I have been paying attention to the varied cultural messages that are present right now on this issue. 

Sorry some of those sentences are very poorly constructed, but it is early!!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Thanks for continuing the conversation, lauren. I think Mothering is an important place to host this discussion since it's the place so many of us came as new parents and a comfortable place for folks to turn during the troubling teen years.

I think what you say is very appropriate. Who wants to be a conformist?! Let's all be nonconformists together! Who wants to be normal!

Sillysapling, thanks for sharing your thoughts, so much, too.

To clarify my earlier links, http://4thwavenow.com is a blog started by "a self proclaimed left-leaning parent who is critical of the dominant paradigm regarding transgender politics and treatment. 4thWaveNow was started by the mother of a teenage girl who suddenly announced she was a "trans man" after a few weeks of total immersion in YouTube transition vlogs. (The daughter has since desisted from identifying as transgender.) After much research and fruitless searching for an alternative online viewpoint, this mom began writing about her deepening skepticism of the ever-accelerating medical and media fascination with the phenomenon of "transgender children.""

To be clear, 4thwave mom is not totally against trans, just wary of the current trend and particularly the influence that social media sites like Tumblr have on young teenage girls, especially (but also boys) who are struggling with their feelings regarding the physical changes of puberty and their confusion around sexuality and gender roles. Basically, the site comes down on the side of it's not a good idea for kids to make life altering decisions based on what anonymous people on Tumblr and YouTube tell them and how parents can help them through this struggle.

The other two sites I linked are folks who changed their minds about being trans, one FTM and back to F (http://thissoftspace.tumblr.com) and one MTF and back to M (http://thirdwaytrans.com/about-the-author/). They are personal narratives with comments from mostly sympathetic readers.

Here's a another one from professionals who question the trend (mostly progressive and not right wing conservatives): http://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-transgender-diagnosis/

What I appreciated about all of these sites is that they offer an alternative to the very conservative "all gays and transpeople are bad" side and also to the other side of "if they say they are trans you have to affirm that; they can't be confused".

I do think that Tumblr in particular is very influential on a lot of kids coming to terms with their bodies and themselves. I think it's dangerous for kids to put themselves in too many boxes (gay, straight, trans, butch, femme, jock, nerd, etc) and am actually much more in favor of leaving the options open. Gender and sexual orientation are only a small part of who we are as people. It's more important to concentrate on kindness, compassion, helping others, etc. I do think that puberty blockers and hormones are very dangerous, though. They have long term health consequences and may cause sterility and are unstudied for long term use in this population.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

safi71 said:


> I know what you mean about being a tomboy, i was one too. People would often assume i might be bi myself, because of my somewhat alternative ways, and sexually positive nature. i have to say, that the most sexually positive people i have met, are bi. But I am not. Im definitely into men, not women....:serious:


I thought that sounded familiar. Why did this poster quote me word for word as though it was her/his words? Was this automated or something? Mods-it might be something to look into....


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

20 years ago you had exactly the same thing at college level. It was awefully unhip not to be gay or lesbien or queer in non mainstream circles. There was less talk of bi or trans, but 'queer' became the popular term, and LGBT shortly thereafter. I remember the looks of disapproval when I went out with a man, while all my friends went to the lesbian club. I remember one domineering personality looking at me disapprovingly because i wasn't attractive enough for her as if it was somehow an improvement on a man doing the same thing. (she was like the lesbien mean girl straight out of high school-yawn)
Even in some polyamory circles (the belief that monogamy is not the only legitimate form of love commitment), there's a contingent of bi's that dont believe you can be polyamorous, unless you're bi. 

I say, live and let live. You're going to get those kind of politics every generation and in many groups.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

contactmaya said:


> I thought that sounded familiar. Why did this poster quote me word for word as though it was her/his words? Was this automated or something? Mods-it might be something to look into....


Looking into it with technical support. Thank you.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

contactmaya said:


> I thought that sounded familiar. Why did this poster quote me word for word as though it was her/his words? Was this automated or something? Mods-it might be something to look into....


Contactmaya, 'bot' was removed. Thanks for letting us know.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Bizarre. The questions that come to mind are-how many more of these are there? Why did they choose mine, was it random? How did they know it was a 'bot'? No need to answer really, unless its possible to do so....


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

I remember a similar post maybe 2-3 years ago. So ... not just you, but as far as it seems not very frequent. 

Miranda


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

contactmaya said:


> Bizarre. The questions that come to mind are-how many more of these are there? Why did they choose mine, was it random? How did they know it was a 'bot'? No need to answer really, unless its possible to do so....


I don't understand bots, but this "member" had 10 or so posts, that were all similar to what happened here on this thread--copied somebody's words without using the quote function. So you weren't the only 'target.' I don't know what drives bots or what the point of doing that is......


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## WallaWallaMamma (Dec 14, 2013)

contactmaya said:


> I say, live and let live. You're going to get those kind of politics every generation and in many groups.


Yeah, I agree. I can see why parents feel uncomfortable with their young children making potentially wrong decisions, or decisions with long term medical consequences. But the politics of rebellion are ever present. If it's not a gender thing, maybe drugs are the mode of rebellion (remember when only the uncool kids wouldn't try drugs?). Or fill in the blank method of rebellion. I applaud all you parents navigating these murky waters with open hearts. Courage and strength to you all.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

WallaWallaMamma said:


> But the politics of rebellion are ever present. If it's not a gender thing, maybe drugs are the mode of rebellion (remember when only the uncool kids wouldn't try drugs?). Or fill in the blank method of rebellion.


I don't think seeing a teen's expression of sexual orientation or gender as a form of rebellion makes sense. For one thing, it places one above the teen, judging their reality as less than authentic and simply as a function of their lack of power. That's really quite demeaning. Second, in many communities it isn't the least bit rebellious. It's really quite normal and parents and schools are accepting, so how is that rebellious?


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## WallaWallaMamma (Dec 14, 2013)

Linda on the move said:


> I don't think seeing a teen's expression of sexual orientation or gender as a form of rebellion makes sense. For one thing, it places one above the teen, judging their reality as less than authentic and simply as a function of their lack of power. That's really quite demeaning. Second, in many communities it isn't the least bit rebellious. It's really quite normal and parents and schools are accepting, so how is that rebellious?


I'm sorry, I did not give my comment the proper context, I can see why you think the above. I was trying to add onto someone's mention that some (probably very few) kids are exploring sexuality as more of a political, not personal, choice. I did not intend to blanket comment on every teen's experience. I don't see sexuality as rebellious per se, but it is in the media so much these days. I hope that makes more sense. Thanks for pointing out my error!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I think WallaWallaMama is right on with respect to what I have seen with my teen's peers. It's definitely kind of uncool to be straight for a lot of the kids and viewed as pretty unenlightened. I'm all for kids exploring (in a healthy way) and keeping things open w/ regard to who you might want to have a relationship with, but I don't think it's healthy for the kids to box themselves in and label themselves at this age.

If you're at least in the QSA then you're somewhat cool. But it's much more progressive with a certain group at my kid's school to be gay or trans. Regarding the kids I know I don't think they know what they are just yet. They're pretty typical mixed up teens, but with so many more options open to them. Good grief, when I was coming up back in the dark ages, who knew it was an option to be trans?! Being gay was very much in the closet then. I think as parents this is a tough one because teens don't really want to talk about their sexuality with their parents very much, but I think it's important for parents to be there to guide them.

I know folks say that kids would never claim to be gay or trans if they weren't, but I think the folks saying that are basing that at least partially on their experience as a teen. It's so different now. I'm really not seeing that with the teens I know. So many kids are coming out and making "bold statements" about being LGBTQ. I think it's really important to *move past the labels* and just let people love who they love and find ways to be happy in the body that they are in.

The first step in being happy in your body and with your gender is not exploring being trans. That's the very last step. The kids need to know that they can be who they were born as and do anything. Women can be super macho whether they're lesbian or straight. Men can be fabulous whether they're gay or straight. We all have many different sides and just because some teens are not feeling comfortable being girly or macho doesn't mean that they're trans. It could come to that, but that's the least likely cause of the way they're feeling, just like a brain tumor is one of the least likely causes for my headache.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

:clap

That response really resonates with me. I think you captured it perfectly. 

THe disconnect is when young people, who would otherwise be fairly content with their gender and/or sexual orientation, but who are just going through a difficult time overall, or who are challenged by the best expression of themselves, feel led (by culture/youth example) to change to a very different expression of themselves without enough thought and reflection. The overall trendiness of this right now is contributing---this is not to discount those for whom it has been a lifelong thought process or consideration.


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## AuntNi (Feb 26, 2003)

beanma said:


> The first step in being happy in your body and with your gender is not exploring being trans. That's the very last step. The kids need to know that they can be who they were born as and do anything. Women can be super macho whether they're lesbian or straight. Men can be fabulous whether they're gay or straight. We all have many different sides and just because some teens are not feeling comfortable being girly or macho doesn't mean that they're trans. It could come to that, but that's the least likely cause of the way they're feeling, just like a brain tumor is one of the least likely causes for my headache.


I agree with all of this. When our DD started questioning last summer, I told my DH, "Mathematically, it's unlikely that 1.5% of the US population identifies as trans, yet 100% of the white females in DD's HS drama dept do!" In my DD's school and her artistic social circles, it is quite the fad. I completely applaud the kids exploring identities outside the cultural norm. But there are a million ways to express yourself outside of putting yourself in a tiny little box at 13 years old!

My real problem is all the emotional trauma this has been causing our DD. She struggles with boundaries, and copies her friends' behaviors. The social contagion factor is so real. All last summer, I couldn't get The Crucible out of my head, and laughed a little bitterly when DD's friend was cast in the new Ivo Van Howe production - that girl must have LOTS of source material from their Jr. High! DD has been in therapy for almost two years, and just agonizes in therapy about her gender issues. She has a boyfriend, and they seem crazy about each other, but she agonizes over whether she should be with him, since she's actually gay. Or bi. Or gender neutral. Or whichever box she has put herself in that day. I am devoted to the idea of "love who you love," so this particular manufactured struggle really saddens me.

I'm not putting myself "above" my child, but I do have a good sense of when she's being authentic. DH and I are great with her questioning - it's when she gets belligerent with her insistence on such completely fake personas that I lose my mind. The PP was right - every generation has their trendy teen personas: mine was punk rock, drugs, and vegetarianism. Maybe it's the sexual identity nature of this trend that has me all upset. It's an uncomfortable topic. For the past year, we have been focusing on helping our DD express herself in all the arts/drama/music/dance activities she desires, and excelling (and frankly, getting lots of positive attention) in those artistic endeavors have calmed down her belligerence around gender. We love her unconditionally, and feel sure this too will pass.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

WallaWallaMamma said:


> I'm sorry, I did not give my comment the proper context, I can see why you think the above. I was trying to add onto someone's mention that some (probably very few) kids are exploring sexuality as more of a political, not personal, choice. I did not intend to blanket comment on every teen's experience. I don't see sexuality as rebellious per se, but it is in the media so much these days. I hope that makes more sense. Thanks for pointing out my error!


I'm not sure if you are referring to my post or someone else's, but I just wanted to clarify that my use of the word 'politics' was not in reference to rebellion, so much as the kind of branding and judgment that goes on within non mainstream/resistance type groups at a college level- ie you can be judged for *not* being bi, the idea that you must be sexually repressed if you're a woman and not into other women, or that you're too right wing if you dont want a revolution, ....you name the cause, and there will be judgment within groups going on. This is not to say it doesn't happen everywhere, but rather that it happens here too.

I dont know, whenever there is 'cool' there has to be 'uncool'.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

AuntNi said:


> She has a boyfriend, and they seem crazy about each other, but she agonizes over whether she should be with him, since she's actually gay. Or bi. Or gender neutral. Or whichever box she has put herself in that day. I am devoted to the idea of "love who you love," so this particular manufactured struggle really saddens me.


Why not polyamory? Anyone can love more than one person at a time.

I dont know-my 10yo recently started commenting on how sexy all these male rock stars looked. I asked him what he thought of the women, he just said he felt weird saying they were sexy since he was only a child, and they were grown ups....

I hope he can be open about who he loves, whether its with me, or with his peers.


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## liz111 (Jun 2, 2016)

I am enjoying this thread. My kids are younger and not yet expressing themselves regarding sexual orientation. But I wanted to say that as a public health nurse I noticed in my practice that girls (even young teens) who had open and frank relationships with their moms about sexuality/bodies/etc were in general much more educated and confident about their sexual health and much more likely to be leaders amongst their peers in this regard. What I'm trying to say is that even though nobody is perfect as a parent, it is obvious that you are putting in the effort to listen to your daughter and be there for her in regards to the topic of sexuality. I think that will help volumes in her confidence about herself/her body/her choices/etc.

[now I just have to take my own advice regarding my own kids, because even though I am super open about sexuality/sexual health at work, at home the way I was raised in a super closed communication household kicks in, lol!]


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## wild1forever (Aug 26, 2004)

Count me as another member who, until this week, had not posted in 12 years.

I don't care to share my personal experience in this area at this point, but I greatly appreciate everyone's comments on this thread! I need to come here more often. :smile:


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Here is another MDC user that hasn't been on in months, if not years! I'm so glad this is here! I have been struggling mightily with this same issue! My 13 year old told me over a year ago that she is bi. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with the way society is going to treat her for it and I struggle to NOT tell her to hide it. I don't want her to think it's anything to hide. It's not. But I see the hate posted on my facebook feed. It scares me, frankly.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Yet another member who hasn't posted in ages. I also miss the culture here. 

As far as following the crowd, I think it depends on the person and if they are prone to doing that or not. Not everyone is, even as teens. I think we discount our kids ( I have a 20 something daughter) by assuming that it's peer influenced. Haven't most of us been in situations where our own parents blamed our interests on our peers and knew that wasn't actually true? It's always the friends, right? Not really. Also being a tomboy has nothing to do with liking girls. You can like makeup and dresses and still be attracted to other women.


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## Cheeky-One (Jan 27, 2015)

I am betting she is not bisexual.

There is a HUGE push these days to get kids to "admit" to being gender alternative. I, myself, would have called myself bisexual if I had to declare it at 12 yrs old. I definitely did "stuff" with my best female friend. 

My own son LOVES ballet. When he was younger, the presents he would ask for would be kitchen sets and Legos, but he happily played with dolls and loved babies. And we have gay family members. So it would have completely make sense for him to be gay. BUT, people just do not have the sex hormones until they are older. However, stupid adults often want to push young children in to deciding or in to showing their alternative side. What is wrong with a child being a child? Anyway, this child got labeled Gay at school. He even came home after months of being harassed (the only bullies were the other parents and the kids would repeat what the other parents said) and told me that maybe he was a girl stuck in a boys body. Turns out, he completely got that from school. My reaction was to not flinch and say "that is fine." I wouldn't flinch if it were true also. I just knew he was too young to really know. A study of 10 yr olds on their sexual identity (in groups where parents are accepting of gender identity) and then again at 21, showed that 10 yr olds really just do not know yet.

Anyway, I had those parents who were very in to the gender identity thing telling me I needed to get him hormones and have him pick his new girl name and so on. It was so dumb! I am not going to push him in to a gender identity! If he wants to do this, fine. But heck, maybe it will be his brutish older brother who ends up gay or transgendered. You cannot tell who is gay, trans, bi, whatever else, by what toys they play with or their favorite color. Even real boys can like dolls and even real girls can like Legos. 

Those who are in my own circle, people who have always known and accepted gay people and such for their entire lives (I am 46 yrs old), we do not bat an eye at a girl wanting to do math or play with Legos, or a boy with dolls. But, a lot of the younger generation seems to be on some sort of "trans wagon" of wanting to look for any signs of transgender in a child and label that child as young as possible. It really does a disservice. I cannot believe that I have stepped in to a time where boys can no longer do "girl things" without being labeled as not a real boy. I thought we left that time in the 50's. But apparently, it is back. The only difference is, LGBTQ is more accepted. 

Don't worry about what she says. It is fine for her to spread her wings. I doubt she is bi, but, who knows, maybe she will be. She should know that it is ok for her to be what she wants to be and just wanting to fit in does not make her bi. 

In the end, my son, the one I mentioned, it not anything LGBTQ. None of it. He still adores babies and he still does ballet. And he is great at ballet. But, he essentially came out of the closet as not gay. I love him anyway. I would love him regardless. And maybe he will change his mind again some day. I do have a few friends that do not believe that he is not gay, but whatever. We don't have to know his thoughts or predict his future. His future is wide open for him.


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