# FIL might be a pedophile - WWYD?



## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

I have recently become suspect that my father in law may be a pedophile - or at least may be interested in my son "in that way". At first I thought it was weird that he showed so much interest in my son and ignored his other grandchildren (girls). He brings my son gifts, makes extended efforts to see him, is very physical with him, (hugs, kisses, touch my belly button, etc. etc.). It sounds "normal" in some ways, but if you knew him and how he is around all people (including his wife and his own grown children) and how he is with my son, it is just waaaaay too creepy and totally innapropriate.

All of the "checklist" items are there - he tries to make alone time with my son, (which I DON'T let happen), he creates opportunities (out of character and not appropriate to the time/place) to be touchy-feely with my son...it's hard to describe everything, but there are way too many warning signs that I cannot ignore.

I want to protect my son, but I don't feel I can "report" my FIL as I have no "evidence" of anything actually happening. But I don't want it to have to get to that. My husband says he really doesn't believe it's possible, but agrees that he'll "watch for it", but he's very "put your head in the sand". DH has told me recently that I'm imagining it. I am not. I am sure of that 100% I just don't trust that he'll ensure there is no alone time between my DS and his dad, (in fact, he was at his parents with DS before I suspected anything and I found out the two - DS and FIL - had gone for a "walk" together ). My son was 2 at the time. I was mad at the time b/c his dad is so careless etc. I didn't trust him to keep DS off the road, etc. I won't allow them to go for walks together now for other reasons! (This man is such a loser - I wouldn't let my children spend 5 seconds alone with him anywhere regardless of the pedophile suspicion - drinks all day, used to abuse his kids and wife, just a total *ss!).

Honestly, to protect my children (I now have 2 boys, 3yrs and 6 weeks) I want to completely separate any contact they have with my in laws. My MIL seems to "feed" the situation, always asking my DS to stay over (he WILL NEVER STAY THERE) or to go for walks with my FIL. She always calls us to arrange visits for them too - they never did that before, and brings my FIL. (History, FIL hit her once, he is a total jerk and she is probably scared of him so she helps faciliate the visits - just my opinion).

My dilemma is that DH just won't "buy" it enough for him to cut ties with his family. I am so stressed whenever they come over (they call every weekend asking to come over now - FIL always comes, he never ever came before, now he always offers to bring my MIL) and when we go there, (they invite us there every weekend now) I am so worried about keeping an eye on DS and feeling sick by the hugging, kissing, "playing horsey" or "touch my belly" etc. and trying to get my son away from the sicko. I just want to say that DS (both of them) will have no contact with my FIL, but I can't count on DH to ensure this happens.

I was thinking of saying that DS's will have no contact with FIL and that they can come, but without FIL, or we'll go there only when FIL is not there, but they will all want to know why (he "loves" his grandson sooo much, he'll want to see him, and unfortunately b/c of all the attention DS really likes FIL too...and they know that). I am not sure I want the whole family knowing I suspect FIL is a pedophile since I have no "evidence"; it will absolutely cause a huge rif in the family. I am also concerned that if I voice my concerns to FIL or MIL, FIL will just be more discreet and hide it, or they'll lie about whether he'll be home. MIL will deny it absolutely regardless of what she knows, (she's more "head in the sand" than my DH), and DH will tell his mom why if I say no contact. He is very trusting of his family - his mom at least - and very close to her and his brothers.

Any suggestions I haven't thought of?


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## mija (Sep 21, 2002)

The only thing I can think of you haven't mentioned is physically moving your family far away so visits are less frequent and more easily monitored.


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

First I always trust my gut instinct on these kind of situations. For me personally I know that because I was inapproiately touched by my grandfather on many occasions growing up that I am also more paranoid of older men in general.

Is there no history of abuse with your DH?Any of his siblings? I know my grandfather got worse too when the dementia started to set in as well. I'm not saying that excuses it btw....

Is your son scared of him, looks for ways not to be around him, cries etc? To me that would be a huge red flag...I am sorry that you are having to go through this anxiety and stress of having to deal with this...


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

i am so sorry that you're having to deal with this.

trust your instincts, and i hope that you can facilitate your husband in removing his head from the sands of denial.

have you read 'protecting the gift' by gavin debecker? i highly recommend this book.


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

There are no ifs, ands, or buts in my book when it comes to suspected abuse. If you think there's potential for abuse, you have to lay down the law that your son will NEVER go to his grandparents' home and that grandma only is allowed in yours. You'll let GP see GS once in a while in neutral territory -- at a restaurant, park, somewhere with both parents around to supervise. I don't care what excuse you give -- GP is a bad example, GP hit GM and you're not comfortable with his potential violence (if he says he loves GS, well, he should love GM too!), drunkenness is a problem (only if you're sure he won't sober up for GS, etc.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

I'm so sorry!!! I was also going to recommend "protecting the gift" i'm reading it now.... trust your gut!


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

Thanks Mammas.

I have Protecting the Gift and will re-read it; it's been a few years.

There is no "known" history in DH's family, DH actually says his dad was always careful about making sure they never saw him naked. DH has 3 brothers, DH says he would know if there was any abuse in his family as "they would have told him". I reminded him that only 5% of victims tell anyone, (I saw this stat on line) and wasn't it odd that his oldest brother has nothing to do with his dad? (He says it's for another reason, which is possible).

Arrrggg... I don't want to be dealing with this. I want to enjoy my new baby and my preschooler and watch them grow up and feel safe...it is sooo hard with it being a family member. Especially because I don't "know" anything for sure, (well, I think I do, but nothing I can conclusively use to explain to DH and MIL why there can't be a relationship with my children there).

DS is hesitant around FIL, (I think he senses my dislike) but he really likes him. I think it's b/c he hasn't hurt him and is trying so hard to win him over.

Should I just let my feelings be known and so what if FIL and MIL hate me, and the rest of the family thinks I'm nuts? It is a pretty big accusation.

Edited to add:
Dov'sMom - great suggestions. That would work - I could just say to MIL/FIL that I am not comfortable with the relationship they are establishing, I don't want DS to have FIL as a role model, I don't want him grabbing DS for hugs, sit on his lap etc. anymore. I could say that only MIL can come to our home. The supervised visits could also work, and i could be strict about FIL not touching DS in any way. That could achieve the same thing, without having to actually accuse FIL of being a child molester. I don't care if they think I'm being too strict or if they think I don't "like" FIL; I just want to be careful about the really big accusations and the implications on everyone.

Part of my frustration is that FIL doesn't speak english very well and he and MIL are always jabbering on in their native tongue; God only knows what they are saying. FIL was trying to get DS to take off his shirt to try on a new t shirt he bought him, I took DS away from FIL, and took the shirt and put it over DS's existing shirt and said, "there, it fits" to end the thing. FIL and MIL jabbered on for about 10 minutes. I can imagine what they were saying!


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

If you suspect even a little bit that he could be a pedophile, PLEASE continue to keep him away from your DS as much as you can!

No way I would ever let someone like that come anywhere near my child. It's good that he is not allowed to be alone with your DS, and I would watch him like a hawk when he is around him. Good luck.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Trust your instincts.

Just say no. This is not a situtation that you should feel bad for not bending on. Your DH doesn't have to agree with you. I would make it clear to him that your FIL is just NOT going to have contact anymore. End of story.

Your DH KNOWS. He doesn't want to, but he does. Because nobody says about their Mom or Dad, "oh, I'll keep an eye on them being a pedophile." If someone told me that my Dad was I'd hit the friggin' roof or think that that person had lost their marbles. It doesn't make sense - if it doesn't make sense, it cannot be correct. He already suspects his father, and him putting his child in harm's way is unacceptable.

Stand your ground, do not feel bad. Be confident in your decisions. Your DH knows that his Dad is a pervert and he may not feed your son to his Daddy to pretend that he doesn't.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Also, even if FIL never abused anyone else, ever, that doesn't mean he won't abuse your son. Some sex offenders start early and offend throughout the lifespan, but others start later in life. Many have multiple victims, but some have just one. In late middle age and old age there's also the possibility of personality changes brought on by cardiovascular problems like mini-strokes or heart attacks. Also, retirement and being around the family all day brings on more opportunities to succumb to an inner inclination. It's certainly not unheard of for a man to never harm his kids but abuse his grandkids.

I agree with those who said just say no and stand your ground. This is worth fighting over.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Natural Mommy*J* 

No way I would ever let someone like that come anywhere near my child. It's good that he is not allowed to be alone with your DS, and I would watch him like a hawk when he is around him. Good luck.


Forget watching him like a hawk around your ds. Don't let him around him. Period. No way, no how would I allow anyone to be around my ds even supervised if I had suspicions like that. I wouldn't care who it offended, either.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

ITA with pps about ending or strictly limiting contact, neutral ground etc., but did want to offer an alternative explanation in the hope that it might make you at least feel a little better that there may be a more innocent explanation.

Some men are super-cautious around little girls out of fears of being suspected. He may be pouring alll his love and affection onto your son bc he is afraid of being at all affectionate with little girls.

Of course though, be as cautious as you need to me, which sounds to me like *very* cautious.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

You may want to look up "covert incest" or "emotional incest" too. Just to make yourself feel better about your decision. You have a valid point - knowing that the "pervy uncle's" problem has a name sometimes helps.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I agree with those who said just say no and stand your ground. This is worth fighting over.

Worth repeating.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Trust your instincts. And I second reading...Protecting the Gift.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

My "father" is a pedophile, and is in prison thank god!!! One thing I've learned through that is to TRUST YOUR GUT!!! I am sooooooo very sorry you are going through this! Personally I would have a private discussion with your MIL, as she may be suspecting this also but not saying anything out of pure fear. again trust your gut, those red flags came out for a reason.


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## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

i'd make sure all visits not personally supervised by me were on "neutral territory".


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

WOAH! An even maybe Pedophile & my kid = NO contact, NO way...I don't give a flip if it IS supervised...no way, no how! Anyone offended in the family can bite me!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Go you for being aware and addressing this.

I wanted to comment on the idea that our society promotes that we have to be fair or not to make accusations. It is true that the -legal- system has to operate this way. But there is no obligation to "be fair" on an individual, social level. You don't need any proof and you don't need to wait until something happens. You are completely within your rights to protect your son -even if- it were to turn out to be baseless.

I kind of echo people's thoughts that this seems to have gone far enough that I would want to severely limit, if not sever, contact. I might consult a therapist on how best to communicate that, and to work through my own feelings first so that I was ready to draw the line and keep it drawn.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I am going to echo everyone else.

The only, and I do mean only, responsibility you have, is to keep DS safe. You don't have to protect anyone's feelings, you don't have to answer anyone's questions. You just have to protect your child.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Devil's Advocate here. I get the impression that your fil is not from the US? I also get the impression that your son is his only grandson? Maybe there is nothing more going on than obsession over the boy who will carry on the family name. Is fil from a culture that favours boys over girls?

Just something to think about.


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Trust your instincts. They are screaming at you. If you don't feel you can trust dh not to let FIL come around, then you can't let those situations happen, ever. You are the mama bear. Trust yourself and don't let anyone talk you out of it by saying you're crazy or too suspicious or whatever.

You said in your OP that FIL is exhibiting "the red flag warning signs" so now it is up to you to stop.all.contact.immediately between him and your son. It only takes a few minutes to abuse someone and especially if dh is not concerned about it, you're going to have to be present all the time if you decide to let fil keep coming around. Honestly, it doesn't sound like you have anyone you can trust in this situation, _except yourself_. Everyone else will keep letting the status quo be.

There's no reason he would be touching him inappropriately, finding excuses to be alone and whatnot just because he's excited to have a grandson. Nationality and ethnicity aside, abusers are abusers and they are going to do the same sorts of things.

If it were me and I had the means to do so, I'd move hide and hair to try to get geographically as far away from him as possible. I know your dh's head is "in the sand" but yours isn't. How much does dh respect you-enough to listen to you even when he doesn't agree? I would just hate to be in your shoes feeling like something was going to happen if you ever for one moment let down your guard. That is not a nice way to feel.








I'm sorry mama.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

You are in a really tough situation; having to deal with your fears and the fact that they are directed toward a family member. With family it's very easy for people to think that something could never happen, and much easier to face reality and deal with the situation when it's a family friend etc. in question. It's hard to remove contact when it is a family member too, there's so much emotional baggage and social circumstances that make this kind of dynamic more challenging.

DH has a brother in his mid 30's, he's lived on the streets, doesn't work and moved back in with his parents with promises of getting his life in order right around the time our eldest was born. DH and his younger brother are like fire and water, they are complete opposites and DH has always had very little contact with him. When our DD was about 10 months old we had a family gathering at our house, lots of people, kids etc., the house was full. I was at the stove and asked DH where DD1 one was and he immediatly responded with "Where's my brother" and took off like a bulldozer. He found DD in another room (with said uncle), they were just sitting there playing with toys, innocent enough, but DH scooped her up and removed her from him. Nothing out of sorts was happening, but DH and I talked about his intial reaction later and his gut just told him that they shouldn't be alone. There was no history of sexual abuse or predatory behavior, DH's insticnts just shot through the roof.

My reaction: I had not had much contact with BIL at all, because of the lack of relationsip between he and DH so I did not know him. He definitly fits the mold of someone who is not willing take responsibility for his life or actions and tries to be quite the manipulator. He is a bit creepy, gave me that "I don't trust this person at all" feeling from the get go. DH's intial reaction was enough for me to go into a panic over it though. With nothing to go off of but gut feelings we opted to go for the "never will he be alone with her approach". Not a big deal since we only saw him less then 5 times a year as bil avoided most family gatherings and we had no relationship with him outside of a few family functions.

This didn't work for me for very long, we went to my IL's for a family function with this in mind, and it worked fine, but I did not feel right about it. We made no issue of him, and just ensured that DD was not around him. DH and I talked about it later that evening and I felt really uncomfortable with it, mainly because I felt as if we were giving DD a false sense of security about bil. If we acted as if we had no concerns, then she could build trust in him simply by default of his being present. We changed our ruling to no contact.

This worked unnoticed until DD was 3 and her younger sister was born. DD started going on outings with my dad and his wife alone and MIL wanted to do the same. She wanted to take DD to her house (where BIL still lived) and do all those wonderful things that gma's like to do with their granddaughters. We were backed into a corner and had to tell her. I asked DH to do it, just he and her. DH is pretty direct and to the point and told her he didn't trust BIL and that we didn't want to build a false sense of trust in DD by being around him. She was not allowed around him, and thus, not allowed in MIL's house as long as he was there. All based on our unfounded concern and mistrust of him, nothing more then a 'creepy vibe'. MIL was sad, but the subject never came up again. To her credit she never asked to bring either of our girls to her home. She would babysit our eldest at our home, or take her out to some neutral territory just the two of them.

Now for the follow-up. It has come to light more recently that during one of BIL's kicked out of his parents house and living on the street phases (before DD1 was born) that he lived with someone in exchane for watching their kids. Those people made accusations of sexual abuse against him, but it did not get to a legal capacity. We know no details other then that. I am so happy that we both listened to our instincts, even though we have nothing more then these things to back our feelings up. FWIW, BIL has since left his parents house (went missing and then not welcomed back). We sat down with MIL and had a long talk and in light of BIL's presence no longer being a threat we told her she could take the girls (now 6 and almost 3) to her house.

Just because they are family doesn't mean they have to be trusted (statistics can back that up), and even though there may be no know history, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The situation is so very uncomfortable and as I said before, can be difficult to maneuver through. I am in the 'trust your instincts camp', not even knowing all the details. Sorry my post is so long, but I really wanted to give you our experience and share the things that came to light after we went through the questioning without proof phase. You may never know. You and DH will go through pain in trying to deal with your fears and work out a solution that you are comfortable with to feel your DS is protected. That pain won't compare to the pain one might feel if they waited to be prooved right.

_Edited to add:_
BIL is much like his father, and DH much like his mother (they divorced when both kids were little). DH has also written off his dad for other reasons. Our girls have no contact with him mainly because DH feels he has nothing positive to offer to them at all. Even getting to know him as a their gpa, family etc. is not worth it to DH. He has many reasons, but I have to trust his instincts there. They have two loving gpa's (DH's step dad who he doesn't consider step and my dad). Long story there, but it can be done.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

You mean, Grandpa is asking to have his belly button touched by a little boy?

Or he wants to touch your son's bellly button???

Either way, it creeps me out.

My pediatrition told me "In my experience, Mom is right 99% of the time when it comes to intuition"


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## maxsmum (Nov 29, 2006)

I too have a creepy creepy FIL and an extremely passive MIL and a DH with his head in the sand. In DH's defense, they are his parents and I think it would be hard to really acknowledge how creepy and inappropriate they are...

We have been living far away and will be moving within closer proximity soon. I don't feel it is fair for my family not to know my son because of fear of freaky GP.
In my case I don't think confronting/discussing it would do a darn thing and I don't think so in your case either. This kind of behavior thrives on denial.

I plan to keep DS very safe and only allow them to see him supervised by me. If their feelings are hurt too bad. I plan to make continual excuses...although my SIL tried this with them for years and now they won't speak to her (here's hoping







) I am lucky in that my DH sees enough that he agrees that DS should NEVER be left alone with them (more because they don't supervise etc.)

I think I can relate to how scary and bizarre it is to be protecting your child from their family. I NEVER thought I would be in such a situation.

Sounds like you are doing a good job, just keep it up and hang in there!


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Forget watching him like a hawk around your ds. Don't let him around him. Period. No way, no how would I allow anyone to be around my ds even supervised if I had suspicions like that. I wouldn't care who it offended, either.


I said that because she said she didn't know for sure, but still, what do you do, wait for him to do something in front of you? You're absolutely right.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Trust your gut!!!


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I got molested by my grandfather, and I think you should keep your child away from this guy if you feel strange about him.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Devil's Advocate here. I get the impression that your fil is not from the US? I also get the impression that your son is his only grandson? Maybe there is nothing more going on than obsession over the boy who will carry on the family name. Is fil from a culture that favours boys over girls?

Just something to think about.

I was thinking the same thing!


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

My grandfather was a pedophile until the day he died. He molested my mom for seven years until she finally ran away at 16 and got married. My mom told her mother ( my gma) and she never did a damn thing about it. She also told her own brothers who refused to believe her and one of them even told her to shut up. Aside from molesting my mom, he molested me, my older sister, one of my older brothers, my twin brother and a little girl that my gma used to babysit all the time, and these are just the ones that we know about, and aside from my mom telling my gma, none of us ever admitted what had happened until we were adults.
My parents swore up and down that they never remember leaving me alone with my gpa, but I have very vivid memories of being alone with him. We lived in separate states so when we visited we stayed in their house, or they stayed in ours. He had very easy access to us kids at night after all the adults were asleep. One PP mentioned moving far away, that will work if you forbid all contact and never have any visits, but this will not work if anyone still plans on having any contact with FIL.
Incest is the biggest, most hideous elephant in the living room that ever was. it does not surprise me that your DH refuses to deal with it. No one wants to think about how their father or family member could be a pedophile. And the fact that they don't know of any victims means nothing more than no one has told.
Please, for the sake of your DC's think very long and hard about this. I am 35 and live with the ramifications of being a molest victim on an almost daily basis. I do fairly well, but it is something I will deal with until the day I die and I will carry very traumatic memories until I am dead. Being molested shatters your soul, you can always, with a lot of time and help, glue the pieces back together, but there will always be small pieces missing and it will never be the same as before. Your IL's may be angry and confused if you decide to cut ties, but at least your DC's will be whole and safe. Show these messages to your DH if you need to, but please do not make the same mistake my parents did and assume you can keep your sons safe. I wish you strength and clarity in your thoughts over this.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

This is one time on this board I might post something I heard on Dr Phil.

The mother who said to her MIL about the FIL who molested his GD, when MIL said that she was just going to make sure that he wasn't alone with her. The Mother said something to the effect of "in what world do you think you have that kind of power??!?"


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Devil's Advocate here. I get the impression that your fil is not from the US? I also get the impression that your son is his only grandson? Maybe there is nothing more going on than obsession over the boy who will carry on the family name. Is fil from a culture that favours boys over girls?

Just something to think about.

i am wondering this too....In some cultures too men can be way more touchy feely..my BF grandfather who was from italy was exactly the same way with her boy cousin...Plus he while he loved all his grandaughter he just doted on his grandson. He defintiely was much more affectionate with him.He was just thrilled with this person that will be carrying on the family name and traditions.I remember at the baptism he just couldn't stop touching the baby etc...

Are you against "playing horsey,kisses, hugs, alone time with grandfather etc" because you think he is a pediophile or if you thought he wasn't would you still be uncomfortable with those things?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
In late middle age and old age there's also the possibility of personality changes brought on by cardiovascular problems like mini-strokes or heart attacks.









:
My grandfather was a pedophile, and it happened when he had a massive brain hemorrhage when I was just a baby. The personality change was striking to those who knew him, but they didn't grasp the ramifications until years later (except grandma, who told us it wasn't his fault and bribed us with candy to keep out mouths shut so that we could still visit). There isn't always a previous pattern to base an assessment on.


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## kaPOW! (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Devil's Advocate here. I get the impression that your fil is not from the US? I also get the impression that your son is his only grandson? Maybe there is nothing more going on than obsession over the boy who will carry on the family name. Is fil from a culture that favours boys over girls?

Just something to think about.

I wonder about that as well.

And since he hasn't actually done anything, and since you're going to prevent him from ever doing anything, I personally would not air my fears to the family. It would be speculation at this point, and cruel if it turns out to be the .1% time when mama instinct was wrong (and I think that it's likely that our instincts are wrong more often than that, since we're designed to be protective and anticipatory.)

I think if I were you I'd still let GP see the grandson, but closely supervised by me and in public, like has been mentioned. I would not tell anyone but my husband about my suspicions, because that's just not cool in my book. If molestation had taken place, then I'd call the cops and warn the family, but not based on mama gut. I'm not really sure what the worry is, though, because if you're with your son at all the times that grandpa is there, then you'll be able to tell what's going on. Poking a bellybutton doesn't seem that weird to me, nor does horsy rides, or hugs, or things like that. I really wonder if there's some sort of cultural thing that's adding to the discomfort. Are you worried that he might break into your house or show up places where you don't expect him? Are you worried that he might try something inappropriate while you're there and that he'll overpower you or something? I guess I'm missing something....


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I agree with the rest on keeping your son away, at least for now. But I also wanted to say that my fil is much more partial to the grandsons, even though he is very loving to all of the grandchildren. He is Italian and I think this is part of it. He would never do anything wrong to the grandchildren (I have no doubt at all), it is just his way to be more affectionate and attentive to the boys. But I never got the creeps watching him with the grandsons, so maybe your gut is telling you something. It is so hard to tell unless you actually see or hear anything.


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## Fijo29 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Devil's Advocate here. I get the impression that your fil is not from the US? I also get the impression that your son is his only grandson? Maybe there is nothing more going on than obsession over the boy who will carry on the family name. Is fil from a culture that favours boys over girls?

Just something to think about.

I'm going back and forth on this... My DH is from Africa and has told me that in his culture, grandparents and other adults will often "goose" children's genitals in a playful way, and it's just a way of playing with them, the way we might tickle the underarms or blow raspberries on the tummy... I've told him to tell his mom not to do this to our kids because I find it kind of weird. However, it doesn't necessarily seem sexual or creepy.

So while I think there's definitely something to the argument that it might be cultural, if your gut instinct is telling you that it's more than just different, it's creepy and feels wrong, then there's something to that too.

I'm wondering if you could ask your DH if there's anything in his parents' culture that could explain his father's behavior? Although, he may not be helpful if, as you say, his head is in the sand, and if as a pp pointed out, he may already suspect his father in some way.

I agree with the pp who said you should use other problems (ie: hitting grandma) as a reason to restrict contact with grandpa, and avoid making accusations that you can't prove that could cause a rift in the family.

Good luck!


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

If it IS a cultural issue, it should be pretty easy to find out from talking to other people from the same culture, outside the family.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

wow that is tough. I cant imagine why a grown man would tell a child to "touch my belly"... that seems really odd.

My gut reaction is to not say anything to them. If your DH isnt willing to cut ties, then I wouldnt want them to realize I am watching, kwim? I would be afraid, like you said, that they would be more secretive about things. I definitely would not let DS around them alone ever and would try to avoid seeing them as much as humanly possible.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Trust your gut. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES, NONE, should grandpa be alone with your son. None, ever ever ever ever ever. I'd completly cut off contact, but if you don't want to do that, then if Grandpa ever comes over you never let your son out of your sight. If DH throws a fit, stand your ground, this is something to fight over.


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

Thank you, thank you, thank you mammas for all your replies and opinions.

I have decided that I want no more contact - at all - between FIL and my two sons. I am not going to justify it to anyone, (other than DH). FIL is not a nice man, my DH hated him until very recently. His brother doesn't speak to FIL b/c he was there when FIL hit MIL, stopped it, etc. (years ago). He drinks, (more than normal) he swears, he is loud and obnoxious, rude, has hit both his wife and children, and basically had nothing to do with anyone (any of the family) until my son turned 2 and now he suddenly wants to be part of our "big happy family", come to our house, come out to restaurants with us, have us over, etc. etc. saying he wants to see my son. For the first 6 years of my marriage, he had nothing to do with us, as far as I'm concerned it can go back to that.

I think I will not accuse FIL of being a child molester or voice those specific concerns at this point, I think I will say to MIL that I am not comfortable with the relationship FIL is trying to build with DS, that he is not someone I want my DS getting close to or having as a role model, and that we will not see her when he is around. She will get grief from him, and she will in turn give me and DH grief, but that's her problem. As I said, that was life before my son turned 2 so it shouldn't be a big adjustment. DH hated his father until his very recent attempts to now see us all the time, so I will be surprised if DH is resistant to this approach - biggest issue is that he can't stand up to his mom, who will pressure us / him hard as she will get pressure from FIL.

I have thought about the possibility of FIL just paying extra attention to DS because of their nationality, etc. He pretty much hates women. There is one other nephew, who got lots of attention between ages 2-3 as well, but it cut off suddenly - no idea why. Now FIL pretty much ignores him like he does the rest of the granddaughters. I've talked briefly to SIL, this is the family who now has nothing to do with MIL/FIL. She said she didn't suspect anything funny with her DS and FIL, (but honestly she is not that with it). Also, FIL does not even acknowledge or show any interest in my 7 week old boy. If he just "loved" his boy grandchildren, then my 5 yo nephew and my new DS would also get at least a "hello" and "goodbye". They don't exist, like the rest of the g/c to FIL.

The thing that gets me in the gut is that it's just not his personality. He has never once in his life bought any of his own children a gift - bday, xmas, etc. He is not even around for those occasions. He does not hug, kiss or play with anyone. He pretty much was a man who lived in the same house as MIL up until last year, when he suddenly started paying attention to my DS and asking to get together with us all the time. In the last 6 months, he has:

- brought DS silver bracelets, shirts, etc. (and tries to get DS to take his shirt off so FIL can put the new shirt on). These were gifts from when he travels, he does not bring any of the other grandkids gifts, boy or girls.
- played horsey - getting DS to ride on his back (I saw on Oprah that this gets some pedophiles off b/c they feel the child's genitals on their back uke )
- always asks DS to sit on his lap, give him hugs, give him kisses, kissed DS on the cheek and head, says he'll cry if DS doesn't kiss him.
- asked to see DS belly button, touched it, asked DS to touch his, (this I walked up on in the living room and immediately put a stop to. MIL and DH were sitting right there. DH says he didn't notice.







: )
- he plays ball, does puzzles, etc. with DS. (DH and even MIL said they've never seen him play with a child in his life)
- put his arm around him while doing the puzzles, rub DS's back.
- asks DS to stay over, (DS has never slept away from home)
- asks DS to go for walks after dinner, but has no interest in any other grandchildren walking with him
- suddenly always comes for visits, spends most of the visit with DS,
- makes a point of driving MIL to see us or for outings that he has refused to be part of for the last 6 years
- asks MIL to phone us to get us to bring DS for a visit
- if DS won't hug him/sit on his lap, he grabs him and pulls him over (I HATE people who do this).

He does not show any kind of attention or affection to his own children, his wife, etc. It is just not his personality. He has always been absent, disinterested, now suddenly it's all about DS. I don't want any contact b/c as pp mentioned - I don't want to give DS a false sense that the affection is ok if he does it when we are around. I also don't know what is going on when he's on his lap. I also don't know that I can be in the same room every second, (trying to also care for our newborn). I also don't know that DH will pay enough attention when he's there if I'm not watching. I also don't want the stress and fear that something will happen if I let my guard down for a second or look away. It is easier to say no contact at all.

I feel sick b/c I recall a time before I noticed anything "funny" that DH took DS to FIL/MIL house, and we had agreed that DS would not go on walks with FIL because he's not responsible enough, but later DH told me DS had gone on a walk with MIL and FIL together. There was also a time around then that DS would not let us touch his bum, (i.e. to put diaper cream on) and he said it hurt every time he pooped. I honestly can't remember if the timing was related but they were both in the last 6 months. It makes me wonder if something happened. I don't trust MIL to be honest. I think she is scared of FIL and will do what he asks. It made me sick this past weekend when she called to say FIL asked her to call so DS could see his "favorite grandfather". DS has two other grandpas that he loves and sees waaaaaay more. It was like MIL was doing FIL's dirty work. FIL didn't even acknowledge DS existed until 6 months ago when the above suddenly started full force. It is just so out of character and so obviously directed at just DS, and it is way to physical IMO.

I really appreciate the support everyone. I feel good about my decision. Thank you for all the feedback and suggestions. It has made me realize I really do think there is a risk, and it is not a risk I am willing to take, and that I shouldn't care about ticking anyone off, my first priority is to protect my children!

Sometimes just "talking" about it makes it click, you know?


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

The part of me that gives everyone the benifit of the doubt says that he _might_ be trying to make up for what he missed out on with his own kids by pouring it all int your son but that's a stretch.

It's never a bad idea to error on the side of caution when protecting your children.


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

Sounds like you just dont like your in laws. Untill they break the law they do have some kind of right to see their grandkids. And its called having a favorite.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, Monkeybum, I read your post and I have to say that I'm very glad you made the decision to have absolutely no contact with this guy anymore. The things you described sounded sooo strange, the way he acts and everything around your DS.

I think you are doing the very best thing for your family by permanantly keeping away from him. Good luck with your DH, and stand strong behind your decision! Your "Mommy Radar" went off for a reason, and don't forget that!!!! Take care,

Michele


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

to OP and all the other's who shared they're stories about themselves and loved ones who were sexually abused.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

That is scary.

I have to be honest though, if nothing has ever happened, I wouldn't cut ties. I would, however, talk to FIL and tell him that you are not comfortable with how he is acting towards your son. Call him on the "favoritism" and tell him that that won't be allowed anymore, that the girls need attention too. I would tell him that your son is NEVER to be alone with him. EVER. Tell MIL the same. And that if it happens one time, even for 1 minute, that they will never see him again. He is to be with at least 2 adults at all times.

Honestly, I wouldn't ever let DS out of my sight around them. But... I just can't help but think of your husband too. It would be very hard to cut ties with his family if he has a good relationship with them. BUT, my son would be my #1 priority, no matter what, as yours is.

It's a hard hard situation mama. *hugs*


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## momofayden (Jan 8, 2007)

I would contact a children's abuse specialist about it and see what their take on it is. they would be able to give you some really good suggestions.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Also, even if FIL never abused anyone else, ever, that doesn't mean he won't abuse your son. Some sex offenders start early and offend throughout the lifespan, but others start later in life. Many have multiple victims, but some have just one. In late middle age and old age there's also the possibility of personality changes brought on by cardiovascular problems like mini-strokes or heart attacks. Also, retirement and being around the family all day brings on more opportunities to succumb to an inner inclination. It's certainly not unheard of for a man to never harm his kids but abuse his grandkids.

I agree with those who said just say no and stand your ground. This is worth fighting over.

Excellent post.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

"Also, even if FIL never abused anyone else, ever, that doesn't mean he won't abuse your son. Some sex offenders start early and offend throughout the lifespan, but others start later in life. Many have multiple victims, but some have just one. In late middle age and old age there's also the possibility of personality changes brought on by cardiovascular problems like mini-strokes or heart attacks. Also, retirement and being around the family all day brings on more opportunities to succumb to an inner inclination. It's certainly not unheard of for a man to never harm his kids but abuse his grandkids.

I agree with those who said just say no and stand your ground. This is worth fighting over."

Wise words.


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Thats so bad mama.







From what you have written and observed over time about the fil, there's just so much really, he sounds to me to be dodgy all right. Even if he wasn't, his behaviour still stinks bigtime towards your DS and you, you would be totally validated in doing something. So he's ruled his family with an iron fist and they just sit and allow him to do what he wants imo. They are scared of him,... nice. I've seen so much of this in families and often there has also been child abuse and incest I'm certain. It's not unusual just kept hidden I think. Yes protecting your DC from family, so sad and so







It's horrible that you are so nervous and could be getting on enjoying your ds and new baby and living in a safer environment. It more than sickens and disgusts me the amount of damage abusers do on so many levels to children and the people that love those children. Trust, so neccessary, destroyed/abused so efficiently, cruelly, such a can of worms. I wouldn't accuse him of it outright at present for a few reasons, but not cos it might offend him if it were untrue, he'll deny it all anyway and twist it, look he knows whats going on, it would easy for him to play the innocent hurt ole gramps, my father played that game too and I just left and broke contact. The fil is damaging enough just with the favouritism imo. But the constant touching, rubbing, grabbing even! my father has grabbed my DS very roughly to get 'affection' and we hardly ever saw him through the year and it was really grose and we were all glad to not return to visit him everuke , all could be signs of an inability/non willingness to leave a child alone, kinda predatory really, invasive for sure,no respect for a childs personal space, privacy, body is bad enough, but we all know to an extent how far pervs will go to get what they want. Buying gifts all the time Just for your DS,? grooming they call that. With not very many child abusers being charged and incarcerated,and an attitude more of protection/denial/desensitization shown towards them and the problem from the system, cops, courts, jail, also our society and right into the 'heart' of the family,covering up a really serious problem cos we can't/won't deal with this as a society, I guess the conspiracy of silence and collusion has probably forwarded the perverts ultimate mission. They don't have much to lose. It must be like a game to them.
You never have to justify protecting your child to anyone. Forget others' feelings on this one. You go to whatever lengths you see are needed. If your DH needs to see his parents your DC don't. You are not comfortable as mama bear and your instincts are telling you this man is not right and thats enough for most peeps who have you and your DC interests at heart. You owe no-one an explanation, even just say fil is not a perv, and everythings pointing the other way unfortunately from your posts, so what? He's not a sound person by the sounds of it. You owe him nothing, certainly not time with your child who he's likely kidding on to be the doting gramps. Culturally or any other way of intrinsically preferring boys over girls is so old and demeaning , sexist and patriarchal, we don't need to perpetuate and reinforce these behaviours with our DC. If he really loved and cared for his grandkids he would not be giving it all to just one and didn't you say your DH's sister and her family have cut contact too and suddenly and that their DS was the object of fil's attention prior to that? Phew, it's all there imo. You do what you gotta do, mama.Take some deep breaths , feel strength in your own conviction and get away from fil. Hoping you get some peace soon from all this.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
My dilemma is that DH just won't "buy" it enough for him to cut ties with his family..

A lot of folks with "pervy" parents deny/normalize their parents' behavior for a reason. No one ever wants to admit it, because--and at the least--it will make them wonder if they were molested by their parents (nasty). At the worst, it opens up a hoard of repressed memories.

Those who make the difficult decisions to end relations with their family often find themselves dealing with guilt--as well as a grieving process. They also deal with the possibility of being estranged from unabusive relatives as not everyone will have the same view of (or be ready to admit there's a problem with) the abusive side of the family.

OP, you are doing a huge service to your kids by protecting them from your FIL. Hopefully, your husband will one day be able to open his eyes to what's going on.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Your decision to cut contact sounds like a good one from the kind of person he seems like and it's really great that you are protecting your son!!

I will say though, and this has nothing to do with the OP and her decision (I was molested by the dirty old man next door so I'm pretty aware of that kind of thing as well), just my own observations... it sucks that we all have to be so paranoid about touching. Not that as mothers we worry about our kids, but that we even have to. I remember as kids my three sisters and I were ALL OVER my grandfather and uncle, climbing on them, playing on them, poking them all over trying to smack or pinch their bums (they protested and tried to avoid this), we WANTED to poke their bellybuttons because as kids that is just funny....they were so much fun and really not in the least bit pervy even though innocent kids *can* put innocent adults into compromising positions if you're looking for it. Like at the pool the other day my husband was lying on his back relaxing in a shallow thingy of water and a huge air bubble was making a balloon in his swim shorts.. all air, my 19 month old snuck up to him and bit the shorts and pulled on them up into the air and wouldn't let go! My husband was exposed if you were in the right position to see down his shorts and like HEY!! My husband is super touchy with my son and I've noticed men around here (I'm in Europe) are in general with their kids, even in public, and it's a nice thing. It's unfortunate that in some places normal men have to miss out on the closeness of a lot of physical touch, playful and affectionate, because of their own hangups and discomfort or other peoples.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
You may want to look up "covert incest" or "emotional incest" too. Just to make yourself feel better about your decision. You have a valid point - knowing that the "pervy uncle's" problem has a name sometimes helps.

yeah, that. there are buttloads of pedophiles out there who don't 'do' the things people think of when they think of pedophiles.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I wondered about the cultural thing after reading your first post, but as you went into more detail in the second post, I really think there is something terribly wrong about this picture! You are doing a wise thing for not letting DS be with FIL: there are just too many red flags - truly creepy!!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
My husband says he really doesn't believe it's possible, but agrees that he'll "watch for it", but he's very "put your head in the sand". DH has told me recently that I'm imagining it. I am not. I am sure of that 100% I just don't trust that he'll ensure there is no alone time between my DS and his dad, (in fact, he was at his parents with DS before I suspected anything and I found out the two - DS and FIL - had gone for a "walk" together ). My son was 2 at the time. I was mad at the time b/c his dad is so careless etc. I didn't trust him to keep DS off the road, etc. I won't allow them to go for walks together now for other reasons! (This man is such a loser - I wouldn't let my children spend 5 seconds alone with him anywhere regardless of the pedophile suspicion - drinks all day, used to abuse his kids and wife, just a total *ss!).


I am not the type of person to advocate divorce particularly easily when there are children involved, but there are a few things that are dealbreakers for me.

THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

In your place, I would be very straightforward with my husband: our child would never be alone with FIL or I would leave and take the children with me, making known to the court my concerns about child molestation and describing what you have described here.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't know if I would advocate divorce. The scary thing is that divorce could make it far worse. If her dh got partial or full custody, he'd get to visit his folks with the kids whenever he felt like it, without the OP there to intervene and protect them. I think I would recommend some kind of mediation, though. Not necessarily by a therapist, maybe clergy or a professional conflict resolution person would work too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I would tell him that your son is NEVER to be alone with him. EVER. Tell MIL the same. And that if it happens one time, even for 1 minute, that they will never see him again. He is to be with at least 2 adults at all times.

The problem with this is determining who the second adult will be. The MIL may not be a good bet. My grandmother aided and abetted my grandfather in his abuse. It couldn't have happened at all without her help.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Also, even if FIL never abused anyone else, ever, that doesn't mean he won't abuse your son. Some sex offenders start early and offend throughout the lifespan, but others start later in life. Many have multiple victims, but some have just one. In late middle age and old age there's also the possibility of personality changes brought on by cardiovascular problems like mini-strokes or heart attacks. Also, retirement and being around the family all day brings on more opportunities to succumb to an inner inclination. It's certainly not unheard of for a man to never harm his kids but abuse his grandkids.

I agree with those who said just say no and stand your ground. This is worth fighting over.









Additionally, old age dementia and Alzheimer's may bring out inappropriate sexual behavior.

Would you feel comfortable looking into seeing a family counselor with your dh about this one thing, just to get an outside opinion? We moms can sound paranoid and jumpy to our dh's sometimes, and I find bringing in an "expert" opinion sometimes helps with hard issues for us. If the in-laws get huffy, you could always have a consultation with the counselor as a group if you needed to and they were open to it... something like, "This is an issue of great concern for me/us, and if there really is nothing to worry about, you won't mind easing my/our mind by talking with us in a formal setting about it to ensure everything is on the up and up..."

Hope you find a resolution...


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to finish reading the thread...but I wanted to share that YOU NEED TO TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS and you probably CAN'T protect your son just by supervision.

I was molested by my grandfather's cousin...his mother lived here, so he would come down to visit a few times a year. It started slowly, where he was inappropriate in ways that made me feel funny. Finally he got me alone, I was 11 at the time. He took years to build up to it, I felt bad about it the whole time, and of course, will have to deal with it for the rest of my life.

My mother's response when I told her (two years later)? "I know he's capable of it, his father was like that too, but I kept you safe and protected you, I was always watching, you must have just made it up."

Now, I'm sure that you wouldn't react in the same way...but because she felt like she'd dealt with the fears in the only way she could...by ignoring them, or placating them...she couldn't admit the truth...that she had knowingly put me in harms way. Only once in the 16 years since I told her have I gotton her to at least accept that it happened...and even then, she waffles on it. She's too scared of the truth of what that meant. And it's harmed our relationship on so many levels (and relationships with other families, who side with her, say I'm being unreasonable, etc.)

Listen to your gut. Find whatever excuses you need to...but don't let your child become a statistic. If your DH doesn't want to face it, make HIM read Protecting the Gift. And he may be in denial about it too...may even know more than he wants to admit to himself. Though it's fallen out of favor, the whole "repressed memories" thing is real, it happened to me, I just couldn't face what happened at the time, but when it came back, I had to deal with it alone.








no mama should ever be faced with this...so sorry that you are, but so glad you are seeing the signs and trusting your instincts BEFORE something bad happens.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Yeah. I've seen people do that. I mean literally been looking in their eyes when the moment hit them of their complicity, their mind's rejection of the horror of it, and then reform it so it couldn't be possible it has to be a lie. Twice with two different people. It was literally like the lights in their mind went out for a minute, and when the power came back on the mind had thrown up a buffer to prevent further outages.

As a child, I actually got to see it another time on a personal level. Where the knowledge of it hit my mother in the face, when it was right in front of her. Literally. How her mind saw it, and then completely rejected it in a matter of seconds. It "could not" be. The story in her eyes was absolutely apparent. And the same thing happened to HER with her father, and she STILL could not bring herself to SEE it.

It is an amazing sight to see. The human mind balks at horror and particularly when we ourselves somehow end up by accident or stupidity, "in" on the problem. So because "I" could not be aparty to that, it didn't happen.

Nobody has that kind of power - the power to remain ever vigilant. They are expert, they are driven, they are manipulative. They choose their prey and their accomplices with care. It isn't possible one can be THAT vigilant, let alone expect people who are ALREADY complicit in their bad behaviour to do so on your and your child's behalf.

You don't want to be that person. The one who THOUGHT they had it covered, and then when it turns out you didn't your mind goes into survival mode and the only way that you can survive the moment is to reject it. You don't want that to be you.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Yeah. I've seen people do that. I mean literally been looking in their eyes when the moment hit them of their complicity, their mind's rejection of the horror of it, and then reform it so it couldn't be possible it has to be a lie. Twice with two different people. It was literally like the lights in their mind went out for a minute, and when the power came back on the mind had thrown up a buffer to prevent further outages.

That is an amazing analogy. I've seen it too. And I agree with the rest of your post.


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## Kindermama (Nov 29, 2004)

Absolutely positively trust your instincts Mama. The only thing I can think of is to schedule a visit with a marriage counselor to help facilitate a discussion between you & DH about stopping contact with your in-laws. I honestly would chose my child over my DH at this point...this is worth fighting for!

Hugs to you. You must feel so stressed.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I don't know if I would advocate divorce. The scary thing is that divorce could make it far worse. If her dh got partial or full custody, he'd get to visit his folks with the kids whenever he felt like it, without the OP there to intervene and protect them. I think I would recommend some kind of mediation, though. Not necessarily by a therapist, maybe clergy or a professional conflict resolution person would work too.

This is unfortunately true. At least during the marriage, the concerned partner still has some degree of control over the situation. If the husband is denying the problem, or doesn't think it's a big deal, he might very well leave the dc unsupervised with the FIL.


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## twinalicious (Jan 10, 2007)

I am probably coming into this way to late, but what if you used his drinking as an excuse for not wanting him around? That way you don't have to open the whole pedophile bag and he still goes away?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
WOAH! An even maybe Pedophile & my kid = NO contact, NO way...I don't give a flip if it IS supervised...no way, no how! Anyone offended in the family can bite me!

















:

I'm a little surprised that the "horsey" and "touch my bellybutton" etc. are allowed to continue. Pedophiles are very VERY crafty and believe me they will get that touch in even with you standing right there. And don't you realize he is courting him? You are letting him court your son. I just, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you are allowing a pedophile to touch your son's belly button? WHAT am I missing?????


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## michellyn (Nov 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 







:

I'm a little surprised that the "horsey" and "touch my bellybutton" etc. are allowed to continue. Pedophiles are very VERY crafty and believe me they will get that touch in even with you standing right there. And don't you realize he is courting him? You are letting him court your son. I just, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you are allowing a pedophile to touch your son's belly button? WHAT am I missing?????

Two things:

1. The moment she saw the bellybutton game, she immediately stopped it.

2. He hasn't been proven a pedophile.

His odd behavior has made her believe he may be, and with that knowledge, she is doing everything she can to protect her children.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michellyn* 
Two things:

1. The moment she saw the bellybutton game, she immediately stopped it.

2. He hasn't been proven a pedophile.

His odd behavior has made her believe he may be, and with that knowledge, she is doing everything she can to protect her children.









:
What michellyn said!
Please read all posts before making a judgement on the OP.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michellyn* 
Two things:

1. The moment she saw the bellybutton game, she immediately stopped it.

2. He hasn't been proven a pedophile.

His odd behavior has made her believe he may be, and with that knowledge, she is doing everything she can to protect her children.

Look, I'm not trying to jump on the case of the OP. I'm just saying, her son is in FREQUENT contact with someone she suspects is a pedophile. Most pedophiles are never "proven pedophiles" which is why we need to rely on our gut instincts and her gut instinct is saying, no SCREAMING at her that this man is a sexual predator and is specifically targeting HER SON! And yet.... it continues. The contact, the games, the visits... the COURTING/SEDUCTION. And I'm just trying to say to the OP, honey, trust your gut here and prohibit contact and cut off the games/seduction b.s.. PERIOD! End of story. I don't care how hard it is or whatever, you think you're vigilant but obviously pedophiles have way more tricks up their sleeves than you've ever dreamed of and the man has already succeeded in being with her son alone before and the bottom line is her dh isn't really on board with this from the sound of it so the responsibility rests on HER shoulders and hers alone. And I'd just step it up a notch or two and cut to the chase and stop it right this minute.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 







:
What michellyn said!
Please read all posts before making a judgement on the OP.

I have read every single post and I stand by what I wrote above.


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## Meikos (May 18, 2007)

As a survivior of horrible incest---I am *hyper* sensitive to these issues and your post was very well written with lots of good points--so print it out to take with you and confront the man....all I can say is use your instinct and shout it from the roof, better to tear a hundred families apart then to risk your son being damaged, and by all means start talking to your son about no touching etc....
Just lay it out for them: "Hey I feel really sickened and uncomfortable with all the inappropiate touching of my son, and I don't trust your judgement with all your drinking and feel you may have pedisickophile leanings, and until this feeling changes you cannot be alone with ....(insert name) and this I'm sure is upsetting for you to hear but believe me it's upsetting for me to feel this way too, but I have to trust my motherly instinct--and I would rather risk this relationship than my sons' wellbeing"

but like I said I was abused...no one wanted to rock the boat in my family either....and no one ever did, and I paid the price....
so I am pretty vehement about these issues

good luck ....


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## J's Mombee (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
and wasn't it odd that his oldest brother has nothing to do with his dad? (He says it's for another reason, which is possible).


I say keep your son safe... you had those instincts for a reason. Also, maybe you could talk to the brother privately about your concerns, and see if he has anything to share.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I am going to echo everyone else.

The only, and I do mean only, responsibility you have, is to keep DS safe. You don't have to protect anyone's feelings, you don't have to answer anyone's questions. You just have to protect your child.

Yup


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## J's Mombee (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meikos* 
As a survivior of horrible incest---I am *hyper* sensitive to these issues and your post was very well written with lots of good points--so print it out to take with you and confront the man....all I can say is use your instinct and shout it from the roof, better to tear a hundred families apart then to risk your son being damaged, and by all means start talking to your son about no touching etc....
Just lay it out for them: "Hey I feel really sickened and uncomfortable with all the inappropiate touching of my son, and I don't trust your judgement with all your drinking and feel you may have pedisickophile leanings, and until this feeling changes you cannot be alone with ....(insert name) and this I'm sure is upsetting for you to hear but believe me it's upsetting for me to feel this way too, but I have to trust my motherly instinct--and I would rather risk this relationship than my sons' wellbeing"

but like I said I was abused...no one wanted to rock the boat in my family either....and no one ever did, and I paid the price....
so I am pretty vehement about these issues

good luck ....

Yes... and the fact that so many mammas here are talking about their experiences shows that trying to preserve other people's feelings doesn't help. I agree with the poster above for similar reasons, and I say heck noooo... God forbid something were to happen, no amount of apologies in the world would take away the hurt and harm your kid will feel. Also, I say trusting your gut and being wrong is not all bad. Not trusting your gut and realizing that it was right could be horrible. In situations like this, some times your feelings and that prickly feeling on the back of your neck is stronger than we can put into words, and I say just keep your kid safe if your senses are saying that it is not safe. So if it is not safe... RUN away from that man.


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## mummyto3girls (May 13, 2007)

This list:
-brought DS silver bracelets, shirts, etc. (and tries to get DS to take his shirt off so FIL can put the new shirt on). These were gifts from when he travels, he does not bring any of the other grandkids gifts, boy or girls.
- played horsey - getting DS to ride on his back (I saw on Oprah that this gets some pedophiles off b/c they feel the child's genitals on their back )
- always asks DS to sit on his lap, give him hugs, give him kisses, kissed DS on the cheek and head, says he'll cry if DS doesn't kiss him.
- asked to see DS belly button, touched it, asked DS to touch his, (this I walked up on in the living room and immediately put a stop to. MIL and DH were sitting right there. DH says he didn't notice. )
- he plays ball, does puzzles, etc. with DS. (DH and even MIL said they've never seen him play with a child in his life)
- put his arm around him while doing the puzzles, rub DS's back.
- asks DS to stay over, (DS has never slept away from home)
- asks DS to go for walks after dinner, but has no interest in any other grandchildren walking with him
- suddenly always comes for visits, spends most of the visit with DS,
- makes a point of driving MIL to see us or for outings that he has refused to be part of for the last 6 years
- asks MIL to phone us to get us to bring DS for a visit
- if DS won't hug him/sit on his lap, he grabs him and pulls him over (I HATE people who do this).

My dad does the samething, but to all his grandchildren, not only with my babies, he doesn't do horsey rides though(back problems) he doesn't rub our children's nexk or back or anything, he's just he typical loving and cuggly grandpa to all his grandchildren, that is what a normal grandparent do, you get what I mean???

I will never let my child with him if I where you, trust your instincts I do think he's a pedophile, I will don't even let my kid put a foot in that house.

BTW: I was searching google, I typed "how to recognize a pedophile" and in the 3rd link(I'm not posting it here) the page was made by a pedophile and their way of thinking, honestly I didn't even finish page 1, it was too gross.


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

OP here....Only 2 seconds to reply for now - babe is waking. Thank you mammas for all your words and support and sharing. No offense at all taken by anyone's passion/strong feelings on staying far away from this man...but FYI it only just "clicked" at our second last visit that I should be concerned, (then I started to think back to all the scenarios that on some level had made me uncomfortable, but that I hadn't connected until then). At our last visit my concerns were confirmed, which is when I really realized what I thought was going on, (that FIL was grooming DS and that there was a real risk that FIL is a pedophile). Since then I've allowed no contact.

I'm sharing this b/c I didn't want it to seem like I allowed this all to continue while I thought there was something fishy going on. Honestly, I didn't really tie it to anything other than "that's weird". Then the last two visits were more "touchy feely" than normal and something in me clicked and I wanted DS as far away from this man as possible, which is how it will stay. (Actually, it was while watching the Pedophile episode of Oprah that when they went through the checklist, it really clicked in my brain that FIL had all the signs - thank you Oprah for opening my eyes!).

DH and I have decided to go with the approach of "this is not the kind of man we want spending time with our children, as a role model etc. because he is abusive, drinker, etc." rather than an outright accusation of pedophilia. Everyone in the family agrees that he is abusive, a drinker, etc. so there should be no trouble with them accepting this. I think this can accomplish the same thing - no relationship w FIL and my boys, (however DH is still not 100% convinced on how this will work - may go to counseling to discuss - he thinks supervised visits and telling FIL no touching our sons will work; I know he will not say that to his dad when it comes down to it, instead he'll be wishy washy, kind of pull DS away, etc., but he DOES agree that it will be very hard to always supervise every second, that abuse can happen even when we're there and I think he's almost at the point to agree to "no contact at all" - meaning FIL is not welcome in our home and we will only visit MIL when FIL is not there. I can see in DH's eyes that he believes it is true, but that he doesn't want to so he is still hesitant to cause a "rift" in the family. But I will fight for my boys safety and will ensure there is no contact, with DH's support or not. I can't see him fighting me so our boys can have a relationship with a man he hates.







:

Wish me luck mammas, and thank you all for your support. I really appreciate the opinions, it helps keep my determination!!! I was "abused" by my cousin when I was a young girl, but I had repressed these memories until recently, (I had always thought "something" had happened to me as a girl, but didn't know what. Long story for another time...the memories did come back recently, but I don't feel "bad" about it, he didn't do anything that physically hurt, my only memories are of it feeling good and actually wanting it to happen b/c it felt good, but knowing it was wrong so feeling guilty). So it's good for me to hear that it IS A VERY BAD THING, b/c on some level - just b/c of my personal experience - I wasn't seeing the need to cut off contact as so urgent. I almost thought I should watch more and make sure there is really a risk before causing a "rukus". However, I have learned more and I know that for many, it is terrible and I don't ever want my boys hurt even in a tiny way.

So thank you for sharing your experiences and remining me that even if we are not sure there is a problem, it is not worth taking that risk!


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