# Brand New Info/Law on Child Seats in Aircraft



## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

DH and I were _just_ emailed a new FAA circular on the laws of child restraint seats in aircraft, both commercial and charter.

There are some EXCELLENT improvements to the rules and I will be glad to decipher any of the stuff that's confusing. (i.e. Part 121 is airliner operations, Part 135 is charter, stuff like that.)

Now, the trick is to get you the document. We were emailed it as a .PDF. The FAA's site is still showing the non-updated version. DH just uploaded it to a file site, so you can get it here:

http://www.4shared.com/file/87354954...nFO_09002.html
"InFO means Information for Operators."


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

So it sounds to me like what they're saying is that if you buy a seat for your child on the plane, you can use any FAA approved seat as long as the child fits by weight. And that if the car seat doesn't fit, it's up to the operator to find a seat that it will fit in.

I hope that this helps with the problem of flight attendants refusing to let parents use their car seat.


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## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

Yes, and this is much better clarity than before. I've never personally had any problems with a F.A. or other crew, and would just pull the pilot card, if I had to, but will carry a copy of this with me in case of trouble in the future, as you can bet most carriers will not trickle this down to crew...or they won't remember it.


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## emilysmama (Jun 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
So it sounds to me like what they're saying is that if you buy a seat for your child on the plane, you can use any FAA approved seat as long as the child fits by weight. And that if the car seat doesn't fit, it's up to the operator to find a seat that it will fit in.

I hope that this helps with the problem of flight attendants refusing to let parents use their car seat.









Could you please explain to me what used to happen before this new clarification of the rules? Why did flight attendants sometimes refuse to let parents use their car seat? I want to explain this new update to my husband, and if I understand the ramifications, it will be easier for him to understand. '

Thank you.


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## LuckyMommaToo (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Could you please explain to me what used to happen before this new clarification of the rules? Why did flight attendants sometimes refuse to let parents use their car seat?
Well, for instance, I had a flight attendant who really wanted me to install my infant's bucket forward facing b/c when I put it in rear facing, the man in front of me couldn't recline all the way. We almost came to blows, but in the end she moved the guy somewhere else.

Another time (I had really bad luck with flight crews when DS was little!), the FA refused to give me a seatbelt extender and told me I had to be able to install the seat without one. We were literally screaming at each other. The plane was ready to taxi away. He *almost* got the pilot, but then collected himself. Later on in the flight, another FA came to apologize to me for the first one's behavior.

Anyway, if I were still traveling with carseats on planes, I'd definitely print this out and bring it.

Thanks, PastVNE.
-e


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Thanks so much for this!

In addition to what other posters have mentioned, sometimes carriers would simply say "You can't install the seat" because the plane was "too small." All the specific details they mention in this update (movable vs. fixed armrests, pitch between seats, etc.) are issues that would cause FAs to deny parents the ability to install their carseat in their purchased seat.


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Whats the point of a carseat on an airplane? Just for comfort reason? Like a place to put your little one?
Car seats aren't designed for airplanes and the crash would be completely different than a car.. Am I missing something?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Yes... start with the Stickies in this forum. Then do a quick search. There's TONS of info available right here about the reasons for a carseat on an airplane.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
Whats the point of a carseat on an airplane? Just for comfort reason? Like a place to put your little one?
Car seats aren't designed for airplanes and the crash would be completely different than a car.. Am I missing something?

Turbulence. It's going to be a lot safer in bad turbulence for the child to be secured properly (especially if sleeping). I've been in some pretty bad turbulence where I was getting thrown around despite being secured by my plane-provided seatbelt. I would have hated to have a lap child or have a child flopping around in a too-big airplane seat during that.


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## marrymeflyfree (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilysmama* 
Could you please explain to me what used to happen before this new clarification of the rules? Why did flight attendants sometimes refuse to let parents use their car seat?

It basically boils down to misinformation combined with dealing with complaints from other passengers.

There isn't a great deal of information given to flight attendants in training regarding the use of car seats aside from general FAA regs and the airline's policies. There's a huge amount of information put forth in FA training in a very short amount of time, so they tend to focus on the bare bones of the rules and regs.

Now fast forward to a FA who has been in the skies for a few years...you're routinely putting out fires between passengers when one reclines their seat in the middle of the meal or hogs the arm rest or the spare seat between you...you even deal with those people who use those little doodads that lock the seat in front of them upright...etc, etc. Once you see that rear-facing car seat, you know what is likely coming. Now imagine that the FA has no kids, or had them before RF car seats were the way...they're just trying to keep the peace and accommodate *everyone* on board, and they don't know any better.

So...I'm glad this new reg will provide some clarification on that for those who aren't in the know, and give parents some backup when they're asked to move the car seat. So thumbs up to the FAA on that!









If it helps anyone, what we do when traveling is turn the seat so that it is facing us after takeoff - and we let the person in front of the baby know that they'll be able to recline the seat without a problem then, and that we'll be turning it back RF for landing. It's not so critical that it be strapped in while in flight, and everyone's happy.


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## marrymeflyfree (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
Turbulence.


Actually, it is *extremely* rare to encounter turbulence so severe as to require something as secure as a car seat. On the rare occasion that it does occur, it's generally in the middle of the pacific. Every few years or so you will hear reports of turbulence over the pacific that is so severe that un-belted people come out of their seats - but virtually all turbulence-related injuries occur to those walking around in the cabin when it strikes. It's the so-called critical phases of flight where a car seat is most beneficial: taxi, takeoff, and landing. Crashes are rare, but there are other incidents that are more common that could cause injury to an unsecured infant...planes occasionally run into each other on the taxi ways (imagine two cars that are that heavy traveling at around 30 mph hitting each other...), take offs can be aborted at high rates of speed, tires blown on landing, that sort of thing. These are no every day events either, but they do happen. I personally had a lap child injured on a flight I was working many years ago during an incident during taxi. A mom and a large lap child were at the bulkhead row...the kid was squirmy and the mom kept putting him on the floor to crawl around during taxi. We asked her 4 times to hold him, but she kept ignoring us. We were being towed away from the gate, and the tow bar broke. When it did, it was like a bicycle hitting a brick wall. The plane is so heavy, and the dead weight just came to a complete and utter stop within an instant. The kid hit the wall, and had injuries so severe that we had to return to the gate to offload the family to the waiting paramedics. As large as he was, I'm not even sure he'd have been in much better shape had he been in his mother's arms.


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## marrymeflyfree (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
Car seats aren't designed for airplanes and the crash would be completely different than a car.. Am I missing something?

Car seats that are approved for use on aircraft have been built to comply with FAA specs.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Are we still allowed to tavel with lap babies and toddlers not in carseats? I hope so.


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## noahs.mom06 (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it safe to wear baby in a wrap or something to fly? I've never flown w/ my LO's but may be in a few months, and I'm not sure I can lug two car seats, and a 3 year old, and a baby...
My mom had a FA freak out at her when they were flying to Hawaii b/c my nephew's seat was "too big" for the seat of the plane and she didn't want her to use it... DS has the same seat, so I'm going to make sure I print this out before we fly anywhere!


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## marrymeflyfree (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noahs.mom06* 
Is it safe to wear baby in a wrap or something to fly?

Technically speaking, they're not approved for use as a restraint device....so while one might assume that a baby in-arms would be more secure in a wrap, there's no actual data on it. I should go pull my manual to see the exact wording (been on maternity leave for over a year - they are dusty!), but most FA's will ask that the baby be removed from the carrier because of this reason.

Personally, when I have seen babies in slings and other carriers on the plane, I just make a point to tell the parents that the carriers haven't been tested as restraint devices and they should still hold the baby close in arms for takeoff/landing rather than rely solely on the carrier. I think they could lend a false sense of security. And I always check to make sure the parent's seat belt is only around the parent and not also around the infant.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marrymeflyfree* 
Actually, it is *extremely* rare to encounter turbulence so severe as to require something as secure as a car seat. On the rare occasion that it does occur, it's generally in the middle of the pacific.

I guess I've been on some bad flights then.

I can think of a couple of different flights in the US where lap children and small kids secured by the lap belt probably would have been at danger of some sort of discomfort/injury: two different flights from LAX to SFO, and one from ORD to DFW during thunderstorm season on the plains. We were getting thrown around pretty hard on all three of those.

Also--outside the US--my one time into Melbourne in Australia. The last 30 minutes of that flight were actually the only time I ever got airsick.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marrymeflyfree* 
Technically speaking, they're not approved for use as a restraint device....so while one might assume that a baby in-arms would be more secure in a wrap, there's no actual data on it.

More specifically, the device has not been crash-tested. There's no way to know if baby is at the same risk, less risk, or more risk when in the carrier instead of in arms outside the carrier.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noahs.mom06* 
Is it safe to wear baby in a wrap or something to fly? I've never flown w/ my LO's but may be in a few months, and I'm not sure I can lug two car seats, and a 3 year old, and a baby...
My mom had a FA freak out at her when they were flying to Hawaii b/c my nephew's seat was "too big" for the seat of the plane and she didn't want her to use it... DS has the same seat, so I'm going to make sure I print this out before we fly anywhere!

I flew last year alone with my then 3 mos old and 3 yr old and both their car seats. It's do-able. Not exactly "fun" by any stretch of the imagination but I managed and I wasn't nearly as frazzled as I thought I would be. I did things a bit differently on the way back home then on the way out there and that set up worked the best: I put the baby in the infant seat, had my 3 yr old walking with me, backpack on with all our travel stuff, and a scenera 5 pt seat for my 3 yr old. The scenera is super light so I could carry it in one hand and the infant seat in my other hand.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noahs.mom06* 
Is it safe to wear baby in a wrap or something to fly? I've never flown w/ my LO's but may be in a few months, and I'm not sure I can lug two car seats, and a 3 year old, and a baby...
My mom had a FA freak out at her when they were flying to Hawaii b/c my nephew's seat was "too big" for the seat of the plane and she didn't want her to use it... DS has the same seat, so I'm going to make sure I print this out before we fly anywhere!

I would never bring carseats in that situation
i would check both the car seats, wear the baby and push 3yo in a stroler
gate check the stroller and then board the plane
it seems like a lot of hassle for very little possible benefit
good luck
nak


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I would never bring carseats in that situation
i would check both the car seats, wear the baby and push 3yo in a stroler
gate check the stroller and then board the plane
it seems like a lot of hassle for very little possible benefit
good luck
nak

adding
most countries don't even _allow_ carseats

it really doesn't add that much safety wise


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
it seems like a lot of hassle for very little possible benefit

I'd say it's more accurate to say that there's a very remote chance of a very great benefit.

Plus, many kids find airline travel far more comfortable with a familiar carseat, which is of some benefit even if the flight goes perfectly. A 3-year-old cannot sleep comfortably in an airplane seat without a CRS, and if you're flying by yourself, there will probably be times you'll want somewhere safe to put the baby down while you help the older child with something, or eat, or whatever.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I'd say it's more accurate to say that there's a very remote chance of a very great benefit.

Plus, many kids find airline travel far more comfortable with a familiar carseat, which is of some benefit even if the flight goes perfectly. A 3-year-old cannot sleep comfortably in an airplane seat without a CRS, and if you're flying by yourself, there will probably be times you'll want somewhere safe to put the baby down while you help the older child with something, or eat, or whatever.

Maybe, but I've flown several times alone with infants and toddlers, and I have never brought a car seat. My babies usually want to nurse during takeoff and landing (ears,e tc) and then the rest of the time I wear them. My babies are never happy in the carseat, even in the car, so that is coloring my opinion, I'm sure. Putting them in a carseat for a three hour flight would just mean a lot of crying.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
adding
most countries don't even _allow_ carseats

it really doesn't add that much safety wise

What countries are you talking about? We've flown on many many airlines and we've never had an issue with a car seat being installed on board. Sometime FAs want a RF infant seat FF, but other than that no arguements about having a car seat. Provided you have bought a seat and we do.


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech* 
What countries are you talking about? We've flown on many many airlines and we've never had an issue with a car seat being installed on board. Sometime FAs want a RF infant seat FF, but other than that no arguments about having a car seat. Provided you have bought a seat and we do.

Pretty positive RF or FF on an airplane wouldn't make a difference is respects to turbulence. right?


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech* 
What countries are you talking about? We've flown on many many airlines and we've never had an issue with a car seat being installed on board. Sometime FAs want a RF infant seat FF, but other than that no arguements about having a car seat. Provided you have bought a seat and we do.


Most of Europe. I have never ever, seen a carseat on a flight and we fly quite often. (Apart from an infant bucket, which is allowed). Even on flights to the US I have never ever seen a carseat for an over one. I think bringing carseats on planes is mostly an American thing...here (same as the rest of the world) we have belts that attach to the parents belt for take-off/landing/turbulence. They are banned in the US (I think because of $$$!). A child is *no* safer in a carseat than a lapbelt/parent belt. I think if I was in the US with a young baby I would (discreetly!)use a sling for takeoff/landing.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
Pretty positive RF or FF on an airplane wouldn't make a difference is respects to turbulence. right?









Nope but, having been an FA and having been in a spin out on the runway and then having the plane subsequently slam into a concrete retaining wall... a car seat does come in very handy in survivable crashes during take off and landing. Is it likely to occur, nope... but my experience jades me. Same with turbulance. I've seen it happen where stuff is slammed to the ceiling and people are injured. Not just over the Pacific either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Most of Europe. I have never ever, seen a carseat on a flight and we fly quite often. (Apart from an infant bucket, which is allowed). Even on flights to the US I have never ever seen a carseat for an over one. I think bringing carseats on planes is mostly an American thing...here (same as the rest of the world) we have belts that attach to the parents belt for take-off/landing/turbulence. They are banned in the US (I think because of $$$!). A child is *no* safer in a carseat than a lapbelt/parent belt. I think if I was in the US with a young baby I would (discreetly!)use a sling for takeoff/landing.

I bring my seats because I need it on arrival, I don't trust them to have arrive undamaged if I check it, and my son with cerebral palsy needs it to sit comfortably on the plane seat. In additon when my kids are in car seats they know they can't be running around and they tend to actually sleep.

I live in Switzerland and I've seen plenty of people lugging car seats,, through out Europe and I am not American. I do like the lap beat attachment they give you, though.

I would say in a survivable runway crash, the car seat would be far superior in protecting your child than the belt attachment.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuckyMommaToo* 
Another time (I had really bad luck with flight crews when DS was little!), the FA refused to give me a seatbelt extender and told me I had to be able to install the seat without one.

..they have those?! Sure wish I would have known to ask for one on several previous flights. Installing a carseat on a plane is a pita.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I think bringing carseats on planes is mostly an American thing...here (same as the rest of the world) we have belts that attach to the parents belt for take-off/landing/turbulence. They are banned in the US (I think because of $$$!).

What's the money motivator you're speculating here? The airlines don't want to buy the belts?

According to the FAA, it's because in the crash tests they've done, the dummies' motion shows that actual children would suffer GREATER injuries in such belts than in the parents' arms without the belt. I guess it's like Red Dye #2 vs. Red Dye #40... the former is banned in the US and used in Europe; the latter, banned in Europe and used in the US. Different agencies weight different information differently.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Just saw this. That's great info, thanks a lot! We will definitely print it out for when we fly next.


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## jwoodbri (Aug 26, 2008)

Thank you so much for posting this info. We always bring our children's car seats on the plane despite the hassle that it entails. In my mind the added safety and comfort for myself and our children is more important than the car seat lugging. Having the kids sleep and not try to get down and run around is such a bonus!

Would it be ok to post the link to the article on my local mothers group? We just recently had a mother asking about the size of a carseat on a plane and I think this would be helpful.

Thank you!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Most of Europe. I have never ever, seen a carseat on a flight and we fly quite often. (Apart from an infant bucket, which is allowed). Even on flights to the US I have never ever seen a carseat for an over one. I think bringing carseats on planes is mostly an American thing...here (same as the rest of the world) we have belts that attach to the parents belt for take-off/landing/turbulence. They are banned in the US (I think because of $$$!). A child is *no* safer in a carseat than a lapbelt/parent belt. I think if I was in the US with a young baby I would (discreetly!)use a sling for takeoff/landing.

Please don't use any sort of gizmo that attaches you to your baby. A lap-held baby will be crushed on forward impact. They have a better chance of surviving if loose in your lap. These double seatbelts are banned in German, the U.S. and Canada for this reason, not because of the money. Do not use any sort of baby carrier during take-off and landing. I used to loosen the straps on the parent and just have them hold the baby in it as a blanket. Just don't have it attached!

I've been in Europe almost 20 years and have seen many car seats brought on board both U.S. and European companies. The laws about child safety, especially pertaining to car seats are much more LAX over here. No extrended harnessing. Ffing at 7 months, three point car seats (still!) I could go on. The FAA protects parents' rights to use car seats while the European authorities don't (experience speaking).

A child is much, much safer in a car seat. There is a mountain of evidence to support this. The fact is that air travel itself is very safe but that's what you're banking on when you fly with a lap baby.

To the OP, THANKS!!! Is it only one page? Now U.S. Aiways better change their website. No more limit at 40lbs. Yeah! Can't wait to look at it! I'll add it to my article;

http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Thank you so much for that, eclipsepearl. I get so tired of looking up the links again and again and that website is great. But I may bookmark it for future use. It is sad that they are not required just so that parents can put off paying full price for two years. We are not rich but we make the sacrifice, just like we did to buy the carseat in the first place.

Incidentally, we have the sit-n-stroll and there are a number of other affordable options that allow you to stroll a carseat right up to the gate. It need not be a burden. Certainly never was for us.


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