# "I do all that AND have a job!"



## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

I've heard this comment a couple times jokingly from a WOHM mom friend and it's been implied sometimes less jokingly from others. What am I supposed to say to that??? Is it TRUE? Do WOH/WAH moms do everything I do as a SAHM plus work a full time job? Having never worked another job since having kids, I really don't know and I really want to. If I were to get a job some day, would it be that much extra work?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I have a lot of thoughts on that because I get those comments, but I try to remind myself not to get sucked in. It's not a contest, there are no "winners" - just parents doing the best they can.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I just made the transition this past fall from being a long time SAHM to a working mom to help cover my eldest's college tuition. Yes, its more work to work. The shopping, the cleaning and the errands have to be squeezed into little packets of your evening and you are already tired. I did manage to shift my teens into taking over most of the cooking and doing their own laundry for the most part but the rest still falls on me. I definitely do a "second shift" when I get home.

When I SAH, I volunteered for several community organizations, the kid's schools and ran the household extremely well which included chauffeuring the kids to all their sports, classes and such. Now I have to cut back on volunteering and my kids have to find their own way around town. Hello bus passes and bikes!

I'm proud that I can earn money to launch my kids into adulthood but it is a different kind of mothering. More hands off for sure. I keep them in line by telling them, "I can't worry and work. Don't give me anything to worry about."


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

Since everyone's perception of their lives, and the lives of others, are so unique upon such a broad spectrum, it would be really hard to make any comparisons. I know that the way I've chosen to live as a SAHM is vastly different than others, and same would obviously go for those not in my position.

There's always the obvious grass is always greener perspective, when we choose to explore that. WOHMs don't spend their entire day in a child centered universe, but they do have to switch gears quickly from mom mode to employee/worker. I stay in mom mode all day and night, and find myself occasionally envious of those who get to spend hours a day in grown-up land. Sure, I see adults throughout our days, but I never get to finish a sentence, let alone have thoughtful or intellectual conversations with them.

On the other hands, my life of parks and play looks enviable to others who don't live it. I can see why, too. If I were out in a daily grind with so many hours between hugs from my kids, I would be jealous, too. But imagining another lifestyle and living it are such very different beasts, are they not?

The workload is immense for anyone without helping hands or hired assistance. That goes for all parents, whether they work at a job or not.


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> I have a lot of thoughts on that because I get those comments, but I try to remind myself not to get sucked in. It's not a contest, there are no "winners" - just parents doing the best they can.


You're so right. It's important for me to remember not to compare... but when other people do, it's really hard to not get defensive!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> I just made the transition this past fall from being a long time SAHM to a working mom to help cover my eldest's college tuition. Yes, its more work to work. The shopping, the cleaning and the errands have to be squeezed into little packets of your evening and you are already tired. I did manage to shift my teens into taking over most of the cooking and doing their own laundry for the most part but the rest still falls on me. I definitely do a "second shift" when I get home.


Yuck... that does sound really hard. Okay, so maybe WOH/WAM is more work. Generally, I do think I'm fortunate to be able to stay home... but when other people imply that I have it SO easy and yet it doesn't feel easy at all to me, I get a little annoyed. It's not like I'm sitting on the couch while the kids feed me bonbons all day! But I suppose I should just remind myself that WOHMs/WAHMs do have it rough and I should be more understanding.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Amie*
> 
> Since everyone's perception of their lives, and the lives of others, are so unique upon such a broad spectrum, it would be really hard to make any comparisons. I know that the way I've chosen to live as a SAHM is vastly different than others, and same would obviously go for those not in my position.
> 
> ...


Such good points and well said. So true about the "grass is always greener". I can sometimes be so envious of my DH when he "gets" to walk out the door after breakfast and just drive in his car listening to obnoxious heavy metal music full of non-kid-approved obscenities and then work a cool air-conditioned quiet office where people treat him with respect and not just complete sentences but entire projects and ... yada yada yada. I know for DH and many working moms that "gets" to is really a "has" to walk out that door. Must remember that the other grass will always look different, be thankful for my own grass, and be understanding of all the other moms who have different grass. Must learn to love what I do... chop wood, carry water, all that jazz, lol.

Thanks for the great, humbling reminders! Anybody else want to commiserate or shed light on the WOH/WAH world and any positive ways I can respond to that comment?


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

I think it depends on the family how much extra work it is for the mom to WOH. I've seen it where all the housework and all the childcare is still the wife's work, and I've seen it where the dad gets the kids off to school, makes supper and does the laundry or other housework, so the mom has extra support. The ages of the kids must have an impact, how many people are in the family, how many pets are there, what extracurriculars does everyone do? No family is the same, the needs of the individuals you are caring for might be higher than the needs of the people she is caring for or your own needs might be different. It's pointless to try and compare.

I think a good response to "I do all that AND have a job!" is to say "I'm glad that works for you."and drop it. But if it seems like they're really trying to drive the point home, I've been pretty blunt and said something like " Are you trying to tell me that I'm lazy?" or "Are you telling me that you're smarter than me?" When you put it in plain terms, they back off. It feels sort of aggressive, but they are being aggressive by hinting at things that are insulting. Don't let them play around with subtleties.


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## RRMum (Nov 7, 2010)

I work 3 days away from home and 4 days at home raising my toddler. Some things are harder about the mix, namely dinner, getting it on the table on days I work is a nightmare, I haven't seen my son all day, he wants my attention and I want to give it to him, but don't want him to break down because I don't feed him in time. Another hard thing is finding time with my partner. We do a lot of divide and conquer. I'll go to the store, while he does bath or I'll do swim lessons, while hubby works out, while I do bedtime. We find it hard to have leisure time as a family.

Some things are easier. Like when you think you are about to lose it because of whining on a tuesday morning, but you are saved by going to work. It is easier to engage with adults on subjects other than parenting.

I have wonderful friends on all parts of the spectrum of work. In general it seems that the full-time at home mom's have more calm and routine, while the full-time away from home moms have more chaos and business in life. Both are hard, in different ways. My friends who work raising their kids at home full time have my deepest respect and there are certainly days that I do not envy them and days that I do.

Everyone's life is different and we all do the best we can. But in general the quote that started the thread is really not fair, because while one is at work and away from their kids, their house isn't getting messier, they are not changing diapers and dealing with a kid who won't nap - but they also aren't having those wonderful moment's of time with their child.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm sure it is more work in a lot of ways. In fact, that's a big reason I'm a SAHM. Working moms in a way have two full time jobs, and I'm not going to do that if I don't have to.

OTOH, if the kids are at a day care, then they're messing up the daycare and not the house. And someone else is taking care of meal time. So working moms do have MORE work, but not everything we do and a job - some of the stuff we do is being done by a day care worker or a babysitter or nanny or something.


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## JollyGG (Oct 1, 2008)

Up until a week and a half ago I was a working mom. I'm now home. I can say being home is definitely easier, but no where near as easy at it seems it should be after working full time and trying to raise my kids. There really weren't as many hours in the day gained as I wish there were when work ended. Part of that is that I've moved activities around so that we can spend more family time in the evening, part of that is that it takes time to entertain the kids during the day. I honestly don't find that the house is any messier than it was when I worked. I have more time to tackle tasks when I'm home so it's in better shape. But short of one extra meal being prepared at home my kids do all the same mess making things they did while I worked in the house - getting dressed and up for the day, breakfast, supper, bedtime activities, bath, ect. I find it is easier to be at home, but not as easy as I thought it would be. I often wonder why I can't get so much more accomplished not that I'm home, but I didn't get to spend the whole afternoon at the pool with the kids like I will today when I was working. I may not get as much done as I think I should at home, but I have more fun with the kids and we are all less stressed than we were.


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## momasana (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't think it's more work or less work, it's just different work. The pace is different, the perks are different, the "co-workers" are different. Being a SAHM is fun some days and exhausting on others.

As others have mentioned, there really is not point in comparing.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Like others have noted, there are way too many variables to compare (number/ages of kids, need levels, personalities/temperaments of both adults & kids, etc.). If you are a SAHM who can drop your kids off at activities or a friend's house, so you can clean or run errands - awesome (likewise if your kids can entertain themselves, nap alone, or help out). If you have high needs (or special needs) children who demand your constant attention and engagement, very little

(if any) housework, cooking or errands are going to get done, until those same evening hours when your partner is home - when you are likely as tired as if you'd been at the office.

I look at it this way: no human being can literally do everything. Everyone must sacrifice or outsource some piece of the puzzle. Some use child care (instead of SAH) - some hire a cleaning company (instead of scrubbing everything) - some eat freezer meals/take out (instead of cooking from scratch) - some have their groceries delivered (instead of shopping) - some buy produce (instead of gardening) - some buy clothes (instead of sewing)...etc. etc. Some give up time with little ones (which is always a mixed bag of awesome and exhausting moments) to do more housework/cooking/cleaning themselves, because they feel the trade-off is best for their family. But *absolutely everything* is a trade-off.

So, as regards which is "harder" - that's an intensely personal question (other factors are how rewarding/stressful your job is, how blissful/nervewracking your commute, how well your personality type meshes with your children vs. coworkers, home environment vs. work environment...on and on). But the statement "I do all that AND have a job" is, quite frankly, impossible and absurd. Even if the difference comes down to "only" your hours of engagement with your kids.


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## Jefinner (Jun 8, 2004)

I can only speak of my experiences. When I was a working, single mom, it was work, but being a SAHM to 3 is way more work. I could run an errand or two, bg myself during a lunch break. We weren't home as much, so there wasn't near the amount of housework. So, for me, that was easier.


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## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

I'm sorry but first off, that is such an insulting thing to say to a SAHM.

Secondly, being a SAHM is a HARD job. Harder then getting up to go to an office, IMHO.

Thirdly, there is no way that a mom who has a job and "does all that" is physically/logistically able to really do all that. I bet you go to twice as many play dates and activities for your kids. I bet you play with them more. I am a work-at-home part-time freelancer and have found myself skipping many things to get an email written, put on the TV so I could have a conference call, been dropped off at Starbucks to work on weekends while daddy has all the fun taking DD to the park. All I do is work it seems. But we need the money. Once baby #2 comes we will reassess but living in CA, I don't see us not *needing* the money and I'd rather do this then go to an office and put kids in daycare. At least they are with me, for now at least.

I do not "do all that" at all!


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Actually , as far as one on one quality time, the different between SAHMs and WOHMs is not much.

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/counting-cuddles/

Maybe going to the office is easier but many moms have the kind of hard difficult jobs like mine that make coming home and doing laundry, cooking and hanging out with my awesome kids look easy peasy.

I do not have cook, housekeeper or driver. When I get home, I do all the things that parents do.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

That study makes zero sense to my life.







Really, I find it completely incomprehensible. I spend every hour DH is at work with a kid physically attached to me, engaging with him. So a difference of 83 minutes makes no sense to me - even with pee breaks, it's got to be at least 8-9 hours difference. The way they broke out the breastfeeding data is confusing - when they say an additional hour, does that mean on top of the 83 minutes? PLUS 27 minutes of reading, singing, etc. PLUS 32 minutes more of cuddles? Or are the latter two included?

Further, it begs the question - if SAHMs are only spending an extra hour and a half with their kids, what the heck are they DOING all day??? Because it must be something, which the WOHMs aren't - right? Or are we assuming they are at yoga, the spa, and eating bon-bons?









I assume everyone works their hardest and does their best wherever they are. Trade-offs - there are only 24 hours in a day (and yes, perhaps some sacrifice more sleep - but it's still a trade-off, and one that may hurt productivity, etc. etc. and on and on).


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Maybe going to the office is easier but many moms have the kind of hard difficult jobs like mine that make coming home and doing laundry, cooking and hanging out with my awesome kids look easy peasy.
> 
> I do not have cook, housekeeper or driver. When I get home, I do all the things that parents do.


This is why I said it depends on your job, and many, many personal factors - if you want to decide which is "harder" for a particular person. But that wasn't really the statement - the statement was "I do all that AND have a job" - well, nobody does that. One may come home and do chores, but you weren't there cleaning up spills, messes, trying to get kids to eat while feeding a baby, wiping butts, scrubbing marker, mediating toy disputes all day long. So, the person speaking didn't "do all that" - what they meant was, maybe, they do the grocery shopping and have a job. They do the laundry and have a job. They cook and clean and have a job. Or all of the above. Or however the duties break down in their house. But I would argue - a SAHM could, in many cases, make all those same statements, because childcare is their job. Chores are incidental.

Even that Australian study showed that dads make up the difference in cuddles if moms work. So all I'm saying is, nobody is actually doing everything.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

It depends on the job. I think it's insulting to make it seem like SAHMs don't do as much work as WOHMs. It's just different work. Would you say a daycare worker really has that much different of a job than a SAHM? Yet the daycare worker gets benefits and respect, while SAHMs are just said to be lazy. I have worked many difficult jobs-hospice, infertility, etc. Some of that working 70+ hour weeks mostly on night shift. It was harder in some ways-scheduling, stress, etc. But I didn't do the same amount of work in the home or with kids. Other people had to pick up that, and since they weren't home as much, there was less work to be done at home. I also was a less thorough house cleaner and cooked far less. Right now I'm a SAHM and full time student. It's more work mostly because I am trying to do both full time (classes are online) at the *same* time. Not harder, just more work. But if I wasn't in classes, I would be doing more work around the house.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

How many SAHMs are there in Australia. We have neighbors in Australia and they acted like it was mainly just the super wealthy who had SAHMs, which would make it more of a The Nanny Diaries thing than what we're talking about. But maybe my neighbor was just talking about her part of Australia.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

but kids grow up and go to school at 5 or maybe even to preschool at 3 in some cases. So, plenty of time to do everything with kid out of the house.I

I am at work while my kid is in school, so I get home to "all that" after work

And when my kids were small I ran a business from home.

Work is something additional in my day. I am not excused from making meal from scratch, teaching my kids things, filling out school paperwork etc.


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> I look at it this way: no human being can literally do everything. Everyone must sacrifice or outsource some piece of the puzzle. Some use child care (instead of SAH) - some hire a cleaning company (instead of scrubbing everything) - some eat freezer meals/take out (instead of cooking from scratch) - some have their groceries delivered (instead of shopping) - some buy produce (instead of gardening) - some buy clothes (instead of sewing)...etc. etc. Some give up time with little ones (which is always a mixed bag of awesome and exhausting moments) to do more housework/cooking/cleaning themselves, because they feel the trade-off is best for their family. But *absolutely everything* is a trade-off.
> 
> So, as regards which is "harder" - that's an intensely personal question (other factors are how rewarding/stressful your job is, how blissful/nervewracking your commute, how well your personality type meshes with your children vs. coworkers, home environment vs. work environment...on and on). But the statement "I do all that AND have a job" is, quite frankly, impossible and absurd. Even if the difference comes down to "only" your hours of engagement with your kids.


I like the trade-off way of looking at it. You're right, we all have to make choices. And everybody's situation is different, so different choices. Great points.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mummoth*
> I think a good response to "I do all that AND have a job!" is to say "I'm glad that works for you."and drop it. But if it seems like they're really trying to drive the point home, I've been pretty blunt and said something like " Are you trying to tell me that I'm lazy?" or "Are you telling me that you're smarter than me?" When you put it in plain terms, they back off. It feels sort of aggressive, but they are being aggressive by hinting at things that are insulting. Don't let them play around with subtleties.


I like this approach. If I want to dodge the topic I can do the "glad that works for you" reply. If I feel more assertive, I can call them on it to clarify what exactly they mean.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> I'm sorry but first off, that is such an insulting thing to say to a SAHM.


Thank you for calling it exactly what it is. Regardless of any truth behind the statement, it is still insulting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Actually , as far as one on one quality time, the different between SAHMs and WOHMs is not much.
> 
> http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/counting-cuddles/


Interesting...I'm sure a lot of SAHMs would argue with this. Even if this were true, then what about the quality of the time that isn't necessarily one-on-one? But something sounds awfully fishy with the results/interpretation of that study... the time spent just doesn't add up to the number of hours in the day. Like how is it that on average a SAHM only spends 83 minutes more per day with their baby than a WAHM? What about the other 7 or so hours that a WOHM spends at work? What's skewing that average? Do Australian SAHMs send their babies to daycare/babysitter/grandparents/nanny/dad for many hours of the day most days? If so, then we need a third category... WOHM/WAHM, SAHM, and something else instead of lumping them in with moms who are at home and mothering most of the time. The study itself wasn't very readable for a layperson, but if I have time later I'll go back and read it through to see if I can figure out how they came up with that number.

Okay, nap time over. I love hearing everybody's thoughts!


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> That study makes zero sense to my life.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who couldn't understand those numbers, lol!


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> but kids grow up and go to school at 5 or maybe even to preschool at 3 in some cases. So, plenty of time to do everything with kid out of the house.I
> 
> ...


But that's another trade-off - outsourcing your children's education (which ends up also being childcare). So, you lose out on quality time with your kids. Losing out on time spend engaging and raising them. That is not a choice every mother makes.

I'm sure running your own business with small children at home was stressful - but you made trade-offs - you couldn't have been on calls and doing work WHILE engaging with your kids. You didn't do everything a SAHM does AND work then either.

Of course you aren't excused from those things, they are your chosen values and priorities as a parent. It's all choices we make and trade-offs to support what we think is best for our families. I think it is rude and insulting to assume that one could possibly do "everything a SAHM does plus more" in the same 24 hours. If we are doing one thing, we are, by default, not doing something else.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> I'm sorry but first off, that is such an insulting thing to say to a SAHM.
> 
> ...












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kittywitty*
> 
> It depends on the job. I think it's insulting to make it seem like SAHMs don't do as much work as WOHMs. It's just different work. Would you say a daycare worker really has that much different of a job than a SAHM? Yet the daycare worker gets benefits and respect, while SAHMs are just said to be lazy. I have worked many difficult jobs-hospice, infertility, etc. Some of that working 70+ hour weeks mostly on night shift. It was harder in some ways-scheduling, stress, etc. But I didn't do the same amount of work in the home or with kids. Other people had to pick up that, and since they weren't home as much, there was less work to be done at home. I also was a less thorough house cleaner and cooked far less. Right now I'm a SAHM and full time student. It's more work mostly because I am trying to do both full time (classes are online) at the *same* time. Not harder, just more work. But if I wasn't in classes, I would be doing more work around the house.


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> but kids grow up and go to school at 5 or maybe even to preschool at 3 in some cases. So, plenty of time to do everything with kid out of the house.I
> 
> ...


Good points... moms with older kids in school would be a whole different category. Certainly they would have different days than moms with two young children still in diapers... or with an older child who is homeschooled. Lots of variations.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I worked at home 20 hours a week and those were 20 hours that my kid had to watch tv and play alone or the house had to suffer or I lost sleep. You cannot do both. Its all work. Whether you are taing care of house and home or working form home the hours don't really change


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree, I can't imagine how WOHMs and SAHMs spend the same amount or near with their kids. No way. I used to work out of the home. Unless the SAHMs are sending their kids to daycare or school while they're home, I just can't see it. I spend every second until bedtime with my kids. Reading, teaching, cuddling, nursing (CONSTANTLY!), etc.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I can see if your kids are school aged and at school all day when you'd be at work anyway, it probably doesn't make much of a difference in how much time you spend one-on-one with your kids. Or if you are a SAHM and also have a nanny. But with a young child, either you're dealing with them one-on-one all the time, or someone else is. They don't sit there by themselves leaving you alone. You're reading to, feeding, doing stuff with, etc., a great deal of the time. And for babies, you're holding/wearing them and talking to them all the time.


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## lovemylab (Jan 7, 2013)

Being a SAHM is as much of a job as you make it. My mom stayed at home and nothing to interact with us. Seriously she just watched her "stories" and then complained the house was a mess. Which it was very disorganized. Oh and relied on take out a bunch, cause she was so stressed and tired.... I am the opposite, I make staying at home a full time thing. Spend time with my children, keep the house in order and take care of meals. It's what you make of it.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

lol...Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've said that before... I've stayed home with my babies when they were younger, and that is difficult, but quite frankly, being a mom of babies is hard for ANY mom! Now that my kids are in school though, I do think that I work a lot more than some of the SAHM's who have kids in school with mine. It gets irritating after a while to hear moms complain that there is 'so much to do at home' when their kids are in school all day. Some of us actually work all day, pick up the kids from school, take time off to volunteer, take kids to activities, then come home to cooking and housework. Definiately more work! I have to say, I do get jealous of the idea of relaxing every once in a while.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I do not consider public school my kids went to outsourcing their education.

I did not do it because I do not love my kids or do not want to spend quality time with them.

I did it because schools in my ares have good teachers who did better job than I ever would and because shoal have amazing resources and mentors.

What I did was right for my family. My son has an awesome job at 17 that many older people would kill for .

I am tired of public school portrayed as something bad. Some are and some are not. Homeschooling is not good thing for every child and every family.

So, yes, when we are talking about school age kids who are in school, "I do all that and my job".


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I do not consider public school my kids went to outsourcing their education.
> 
> ...


I must have missed where this way said. I glanced back, but did someone say that on here to you? My oldest went to Kindy for half a year. Terrible, terrible situation. Not all schools are bad, and it really depends on the child. Unfortunately, you will find most people who hs on here do so because of a negative school situation, so you should take that into consideration.


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## michelleepotter (Apr 8, 2013)

When I worked outside the home I did not do everything I do now plus a job. I had to pay someone else to do some of it, and some of it simply couldn't get done. But some of it, yeah, I did have to do a lot of work at home on top of work at work. And it's mostly the not fun parts. Sometimes I feel sorry for my husband, because he works all day and then comes home and takes over at least half the home stuff. But he appreciates all I do when he's not home.

Still, I do a lot more with my kids now than I could possibly do if I also had to work.


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee* But with a young child, either you're dealing with them one-on-one all the time, or someone else is. They don't sit there by themselves leaving you alone. You're reading to, feeding, doing stuff with, etc., a great deal of the time. And for babies, you're holding/wearing them and talking to them all the time.


Exactly.

The australian study was talking about babies. Breastfed and bottle fed infants. I don't get the two hours per day of cuddle time. When mine were infants they were in the sling against my skin 24/7. If I worked 8hours per day that would be 8 hours subtracted. Makes no sense.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serafina33*
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> The australian study was talking about babies. Breastfed and bottle fed infants. I don't get the two hours per day of cuddle time. When mine were infants they were in the sling against my skin 24/7. If I worked 8hours per day that would be 8 hours subtracted. Makes no sense.


Depends on the situation. Some moms don't sleep with their babies, so they could subtract a few hours... There might be a few moms who hold their little ones 24/7 for months or years, I've just never met any!


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I do not consider public school my kids went to outsourcing their education.
> 
> ...


Alenushka - I think you are misunderstanding me. By using the word "outsource" I simply meant that you are making a choice to have someone else take over that part, whether because you believe someone else can do a better job of it than you, offer more opportunities, and/or you are not in a position to be able to homeschool financially, etc. etc. Whatever the case may be, I'm not making a value judgment. I absolutely trust that you are making the best choices for your family.

I was just highlighting education as one more thing that we can choose to do ourselves or hire/allow someone else to take over if we choose (for any reason). Like cleaning, cooking, child care, etc.

I liked that you clarified that you are "talking about (moms of) school age kids who are in school" - that's a much more specific group you are comparing to, and that distinction is helpful. I'm still not sure there isn't a trade-off (if you can get the cleaning, cooking and errands done during the day, presumably you'd have more time to be involved in after-school activities or other things to benefit the family, etc. - or, if you do all that as well, you are potentially losing out on sleep, and so on...all variables







).

I do understand that you are referring to some basics like cooking, chores, paperwork, etc. and I do respect that those things are hard to balance with working full-time.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> How many SAHMs are there in Australia. We have neighbors in Australia and they acted like it was mainly just the super wealthy who had SAHMs, which would make it more of a The Nanny Diaries thing than what we're talking about. But maybe my neighbor was just talking about her part of Australia.


About 30% of Australian mothers have a job outside the home according to 2010-11 data. I couldn't find a breakdown of age of children or hours worked though.


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Of course I exaggerate, I'd sometimes put them down somewhere to sleep during a really long, deep nap or I'd go to the gym and leave one of my kids with their father or grandparents for a couple of hours, etc....

But for the most part, I was sleeping next to them (or between two of them) at night, and carrying them in the sling in daytime, until they were running around and even then the amount of time during the days that they were on my person, in my lap, etc, was pretty high.

It can't be that unusual amongst AP parents.


----------



## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Quote:


> I liked that you clarified that you are "talking about (moms of) school age kids who are in school" - that's a much more specific group you are comparing to, and that distinction is helpful.


The australian study was about infants, either bottle or breastfeeding. Definitely kids not of school age. I'm getting confused.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serafina33*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I don't know how unusual it is but both our babies were on or beside someone (not always me but almost always a family member) unless they were in a carseat for the first few months. At about 4 months I would start sneaking away during some sleeps. And at about 5 months they both started sitting up and wanted some floor playtime. Actually with my second it was probably a bit earlier than that as I had more demands on my time so maybe 4 months for her.

Anyway, off topic. But no, not just you


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serafina33*
> 
> The australian study was about infants, either bottle or breastfeeding. Definitely kids not of school age. I'm getting confused.


I'm not sure why she posted that in support of her argument - other than perhaps to say, that even in arms babies don't get much more time with their mothers, so school age kids would get even less/the same as with a WOHM?


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes, once kids are in school I'd assume there wouldn't be a huge difference in skin contact/cuddle time.

Infants, on the other hand, would spend far less time against mother's skin if she is working out of the home and not taking/slinging her babe along with her. I just don't see how there is any way around that, it's so blatantly self apparent to me.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

If you are working outside the home, then you need someone else to take care of certain things regarding your children. For eg, are you picking them up from school, or are you paying someone else to do it? I see few moms or dads picking up their children from school. But i am always there.

As an SAHM, i see kids in the playground, but rarely their parents. I see the nannies. I get to know the kids, but not the parents. They have very little idea what their children are doing all day or the friends they make.

If you're delegating, you're not doing it. Its that simple.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

A lot of working parents pick up their kids from school and take them to the playground, etc... How do you know that people picking up their kids aren't employed (WAH, fexible hours, etc...)? I think the main thing working parents give up is leisure time (tv, sleep, time with friends, etc...). I'm guessing that's what sparks these kinds of comments. Not everyone is happy about giving that stuff up.


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## michelleepotter (Apr 8, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> If you are working outside the home, then you need someone else to take care of certain things regarding your children. For eg, are you picking them up from school, or are you paying someone else to do it? I see few moms or dads picking up their children from school. But i am always there.
> 
> ...


I agree that if you're paying someone else to do a thing while you work, you can't say you do both. When I worked, I recognized that a lot of other people helped me meet my kids' needs on a day-to-day basis. BUT...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A lot of working parents pick up their kids from school and take them to the playground, etc... How do you know that people picking up their kids aren't employed (WAH, fexible hours, etc...)? I think the main thing working parents give up is leisure time (tv, sleep, time with friends, etc...). I'm guessing that's what sparks these kinds of comments. Not everyone is happy about giving that stuff up.


This. My husband works, but he gets home at 3:30 in the afternoon, and spends time with our kids during the after-school hours. Plus, I'm a SAHM now, and I don't always accompany my kids to the park or pick them up from activities that are within walking distance. If my kids weren't homeschooled, they would walk themselves home from school just like all the other kids in my neighborhood. If you lived near me, maybe you'd see my kids and think I'm a working parent who can't spend time with my kids, when actually I just really value independence and self-reliance, and feel that my kids are happier and healthier when they get to do these things on their own.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A lot of working parents pick up their kids from school and take them to the playground, etc... How do you know that people picking up their kids aren't employed (WAH, fexible hours, etc...)? *I think the main thing working parents give up is leisure time (tv, sleep, time with friends, etc...). I'm guessing that's what sparks these kinds of comments. Not everyone is happy about giving that stuff up.*


But isn't this just a reality of being a parent? I can see how working parents could compare this to life pre-kids and feel that way (and it's a stark contrast, since the bulk of their day is the same at work, but only without the freedom at home they once enjoyed to relax, be social, whatever afterward).

I certainly don't think stay-at-home parents have more time for TV, friends, or sleep (at least not implicitly) than their WOH counterparts. You might get to see a friend at a playdate, but many workers socialize over lunch, or with co-workers, etc. It's all subjective and highly dependent on personal circumstances.

I think this is often said out of bitterness, as an insult - subtext "I'm so much better than you for all I juggle, you have no clue, your life is a piece of cake." It's damaging - it involves making blind assumptions about life on the other side of the fence.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I certainly dont have time for leisure as an SAHM. I dont get to sleep more either. We have to get up early to get son to the school bus. We go to bed early so noone is tired(but im still tired because the baby **** nurses at night). I never go out, and never do anything for myself other than drink a cup of coffee. I never see friends on my own....alays bring kids along...always on duty, 24/7.

For those who do manage to work and still perform most home duties (such as take a child to the playground) I would say that you might have more job flexibility that many others. Professionals who work for themselves-lets say a psychiatrist, or a dentist, get paid alot per hour, and can choose when to see their patients. So maybe some working mothers manage to spend more time with their children this way....

(i mean if the psychologist, who charged $400 to test my son as a precondition for applying to school saw 6 people a day, thats $2400. Lets say she works 2 days a week- then she has made almost $5000 in 2 days. The rest of the time, she can be a SAHM....so i guess its possible.....)

Also, a helpful husband can make a big difference.

So i guess a woman really can have it all?

Feminist battles have all been won?

Sounds like good news

(I should have become a dentist)


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

haha, I don't think so. There is such a small percentage of women who are able to work full time and still be present when their kids are done with school for the day, let alone get nearly as much time with their under-school-aged kids as they would have if they would be home. It's a beautiful goal to dream about when women can still pursue their careers with no penalties, whilst taking the first 1-3 years of their child's life off to be at home, and, after that, work a schedule that works around their being available to their kids at 2pm M-F. Other countries are a lot further ahead in that regards, than the US, but it's not perfect anywhere that I know of, given how important a) that a woman has options and doesn't feel like she has to choose between goals outside the home and motherhood is, and b) how important a mother's presence is to her LOs, especially in the first few years.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...










Exactly


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treehugz*
> 
> I've heard this comment a couple times jokingly from a WOHM mom friend and it's been implied sometimes less jokingly from others. What am I supposed to say to that???


Unless the person takes her child to work with her, someone else is caring for the child when she is gone. I assume she doesn't lock her child home along in a cage for hours. WOHMs and SAHMs are both mothers, fulfilling the responsibilities of mothers, but there are long hours of childcare that a mother entrusts to someone else. That is what your job is. You don't have to get into any complicated comparison, the simple fact is that someone must legally provide supervision and care for a child for 24 hours a day, and that is what you do for the 8+ hours a day that she is not home.


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## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

Who wants to work the most anyway? Stay away from the rat race. Enjoy life.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> Unless the person takes her child to work with her, someone else is caring for the child when she is gone. I assume she doesn't lock her child home along in a cage for hours.


This.

Btw, what are the the nannies and childcare providers doing all day? Isnt that work? They leave their own children in the care of someone else...


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## michelleepotter (Apr 8, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> This.
> 
> Btw, what are the the nannies and childcare providers doing all day? Isnt that work? They leave their own children in the care of someone else...


Well, they don't necessarily leave their kids with someone else. Lots of childcare providers (including nannies, and moms who run in-home daycares) watch their own kids at the same time. But you still bring up a good point. If a mom goes to work and hires someone to watch her kids while she's gone, and then says that she does all the same things as a SAHM plus goes to work, isn't that kind of devaluing the work done by the childcare provider? That's kind of like saying, "The work my child's nanny, teacher, babysitter does all day doesn't count for anything, because my kids get everything they need from me." I don't think that's fair.

There's a lot of work to be done in this world. Some of it is at home with kids, some is at daycare with kids, some of it is out in the workforce. Nobody can do all the jobs at the same time. We should appreciate the different roles that each person takes. When I worked, I appreciated the people who helped care for my kids. As a SAHM, I appreciate the work my husband does that pays for our house, clothes, and food. I think that's better than fighting and arguing over who does what.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

BTW, I'm not saying I do as much as a WOHM, WAHM or homeschooling SAHMs because I really don't, I'm just specifically talking about the time element involved. It's hard to know how much work any person does, we can't really get into those comparisons. I find child rearing taxing in a different ways, and I have a hard time switching gears. I guess I have a lot of inertia, but when I was at home, I tended to want to stay at home and I dreaded work. When I was at work, I tended to want to stay at work. I think working full time and then having to come home and take care of children would be exhausting especially if the paid work was not emotionally and intellectually satisfying. I have know people who loved their jobs who couldn't wait to get back, but I was not so blessed, so I became a SAHM.

Quote:


> That's kind of like saying, "The work my child's nanny, teacher, babysitter does all day doesn't count for anything, because my kids get everything they need from me." I don't think that's fair.


Yes, that's what I was thinking. And later on, it's teachers, because some parents still stay home and home educate instead of sending kids to school, so a SAHM wears many hats that you might otherwise have to pay others to do for you.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FarmerMomma*
> 
> Who wants to work the most anyway? Stay away from the rat race. Enjoy life.


Exactly!

"I do all that and have a job!" Have fun with that.

I quit working precisely because I hated that my child was being raised by someone else, and because I was totally stressed out trying to do 'all that', and do it well. We're fortunate that dh's job paid enough to allow me to quit my job. If we needed me to work, fine, I would have got on with it. But it wouldn't have been how I think parenting/married life/running a home should be.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I have to say, I'd really like to see moms in the US come together and demand better options for ourselves and our children. I would LOVE to see paid maternaty leave, options for a year or two off with a newborn, jobs with flexible schedules, or jobshares. Add to that list women who are leaders in the coorporate world, high quality/subisidized/on-site child care, and supportive spouses and extended family. I really wish women didn't have to think that is has to be career OR SAHM. I really think it is possible to have it all. That's the legacy I would like to leave for my daughters.


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serafina33*
> But for the most part, I was sleeping next to them (or between two of them) at night, and carrying them in the sling in daytime, until they were running around and even then the amount of time during the days that they were on my person, in my lap, etc, was pretty high.
> 
> It can't be that unusual amongst AP parents.


I will ditto all that... 24/7 or very close to it. It's not just you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> I have to say, I'd really like to see moms in the US come together and demand better options for ourselves and our children. I would LOVE to see paid maternaty leave, options for a year or two off with a newborn, jobs with flexible schedules, or jobshares. Add to that list women who are leaders in the coorporate world, high quality/subisidized/on-site child care, and supportive spouses and extended family. I really wish women didn't have to think that is has to be career OR SAHM. I really think it is possible to have it all. That's the legacy I would like to leave for my daughters.


I think I agree with what you're saying here, but I want to add a question that I've been wondering about... is it really in fact possible to have it all? Maybe sometimes you can't have everything you want, at least not all at the same time. Sometimes having everything means not having enough time for any one thing. Sometimes you have to make tough choices and then live with the choices we've made. And I wonder if our kids are getting this message. Moms (and dads) already have so much pressure, and most of us are already trying to juggle too many things. Kids are filled with "you can do anything you want" and "you can be anything you want" mumbo jumbo. But I wonder if we're not setting our kids up for failure, always worked to the limit and always wondering why they can't do it all and can't have it all.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't push for more understanding for mothers and families in the workplace, but the idea of "having it all" made me think. Okay, enough of my nattering naybobbing... nak, nak.


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Got another comment this week to add... I was talking with a working dad who is married to a working mom. We were talking about our gardens, and I said how I just don't have enough time to keep up with the weeds. He says "tell me about it... and you're home all day!" Grrr. The extra irritating thing is that I wasn't even really making the point about being so busy that I don't have time. I was just trying to say how we've had so much rain and the weeds have grown so fast and it's been so muddy that there hasn't been an ideal time to get into the garden to knock the weeds back.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/after-the-opt-out-revolution-asking-hows-that-working-for-you/

This is a very interesting read on the subject of working/mothering and in between.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

I haven't read all of the comments, but I own a business and work and bring DD to work with me...it's like working two jobs and then some. Very exhausting.


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/after-the-opt-out-revolution-asking-hows-that-working-for-you/
> 
> This is a very interesting read on the subject of working/mothering and in between.


What a great article. Really gave a lot of food for thought to chew on.


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## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

Working- a very normal thing to complain about.
Spending time with kids- not so socially acceptable to complain about.


----------



## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FarmerMomma*
> 
> Working- a very normal thing to complain about.
> Spending time with kids- not so socially acceptable to complain about.


So true... why is that, I wonder? People who have out of the home jobs spending time with kids still get to complain... like teachers and day care workers... and they only have to (get to?) spend time with kids for around 40 hours a week, and I think everyone agrees that kids save their worst behavior for their parents. (And here I am in NO WAY saying that teachers and day care workers shouldn't complain.  ) But people whose job it is to stay home with their own kids work 24/7 and are not allowed to complain. It's like we're SO LUCKY to get to stay home that we shouldn't talk about it lest we offend someone. It's not just complaining either... I can't say anything positive about my life without offending someone... like simply telling people that we had a nice morning walk and it was sunny... without getting the eyeroll that says oh, it must be so nice to be able to do that while I had to slave away at work... or worse, they think I'm gloating. And I wouldn't even dare to say anything about the things I've given up to be able to stay home with my kids... like mentioning it would be nice for me and dh to have the money to go out to dinner for our anniversary without getting the response of well, you made your choice to stay home, didn't you?

I've seen the other side of this too, where people assume that I'm SO UNLUCKY (or pathetic or something?) to not have an education or ambition (neither true) and that I should be doing something to better myself and my family and at least want to get a job. And of course you'd best not waste your time complaining then because instead you should be doing something about your situation.

But I'm rambling... it sure would be nice to be able to talk about what I do with other people without the constant scrutiny. Do working moms generally feel scrutinized when they talk about what they do, I wonder?


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

ALL mothers feel scrutinized!! Its really not fair and we shouldn't let people treat us like we don't do enough/don't do it right. Mothers, in general (working or not) work harder than any other class of human beings. Seriously, I know plenty of single men who complain constantly and it seems totally socially acceptable.


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## lovemylab (Jan 7, 2013)

Treehugz- you make some really good points. I think that moms who work outside of the house and SAHMs shouldn't compare their days. Both jobs are tough and their are pros and cons to any job. Besides the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.


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## DaisyMae08 (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm a high school teacher and am currently on maternity leave with my second child. I stayed home for eight months with my first, and of course am home all summer. When I'm working I feel like it's harder than staying home and when I'm home I feel like it's harder than working. Not sure what that says about me except that it sure validates the idea that there are pros and cons to both!


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> ALL mothers feel scrutinized!!


This stinks! I don't think I even knew what scrutiny meant until I became a mom. I certainly never felt scrutinized for my choices when I was in the working world before kids.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovemylab*
> 
> I think that moms who work outside of the house and SAHMs shouldn't compare their days. Both jobs are tough and their are pros and cons to any job.


I think you must be right... sounds like it's like apples and oranges.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaisyMae08*
> 
> When I'm working I feel like it's harder than staying home and when I'm home I feel like it's harder than working. Not sure what that says about me except that it sure validates the idea that there are pros and cons to both!


Lol, sounds about right. It's nice to hear that from someone who knows both sides.


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## patience7 (Jul 31, 2009)

This is totally what my sister would say..... she is a work in the home mom. But my other sister is her "nanny", cleans her house, does her dishes and her laundry. She doesn't see how much assistance she gets during the day and now, her son is in school for part of the day so my other sister is there less, but she has more consistent time to work without the distraction of her son.

I think we all work hard. We may work in different ways or at different times but I think we all love our kids and we all do the best we can and I hate when people who work and choose a different lifestyle than me try to make me feel like I am not working hard enough.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

No, moms who work do NOT do the same work as a stay at home mom and their job. I don't care what their job is. Their nanny or their babysitter cares for the children. That's why they pay them--because it's a job.

And, as for the shopping, as I'm towing my two around Trader Joes during the middle of the day I almost always see a working mom friend who says, "Oh, it's so hard. I have to do this during my lunch break." And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
> 
> No, moms who work do NOT do the same work as a stay at home mom and their job. I don't care what their job is. Their nanny or their babysitter cares for the children. That's why they pay them--because it's a job.
> 
> And, as for the shopping, as I'm towing my two around Trader Joes during the middle of the day I almost always see a working mom friend who says, "Oh, it's so hard. I have to do this during my lunch break." And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


Way to perpetuate the on going mommy wars. Pat on the back for you.


----------



## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
> 
> No, moms who work do NOT do the same work as a stay at home mom and their job. I don't care what their job is. Their nanny or their babysitter cares for the children. That's why they pay them--because it's a job.
> 
> And, as for the shopping, as I'm towing my two around Trader Joes during the middle of the day I almost always see a working mom friend who says, "Oh, it's so hard. I have to do this during my lunch break." And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


Wait what if they are a preschool teacher? Or go home and nurse their baby on their lunch break. I do agree though. The idea of getting a job right now seems like a vacation in comparison some days.


----------



## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
> 
> No, moms who work do NOT do the same work as a stay at home mom and their job. I don't care what their job is. Their nanny or their babysitter cares for the children. That's why they pay them--because it's a job.
> 
> And, as for the shopping, as I'm towing my two around Trader Joes during the middle of the day I almost always see a working mom friend who says, "Oh, it's so hard. I have to do this during my lunch break." And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


I did want to point out that you don't actually know. You don't know if someone has a nanny or what they're babysitting situation is. Not everyone can stay at home and some of it has to do with liking heat and running water oh and food. Some single mothers work and raise their children without a break. Without another adult stepping in. And some working mothers with working partners still do a lot more than you can imagine. While school and daycare cover day time babysitting of your child, they're not washing your kids clothes, bathing your child, running your kid to all their activities, holding them at night when they're not well, or doing the millions of other things that need to be done just to keep the household running. I work half the month and stay home the other half. I get a break from both. And they're both equally as hard. I work 12 hour days when I do work, come home and feed my kids, bathe my kids and help them with homework. I make sure they have clean clothes for the next day and sit beside them at night while they drift off to sleep with a million things running through my head. ON the days I'm off, I try to get ALL THE THINGS done so that I can enjoy a few hours a day with my kids. And it can be draining. Both of them are draining but they both have good parts and bad parts. On my days at work I can eat my lunch in peace, on my days at home I can lounge on the couch an hour or so with my kids watching a movie. But I still have things to get done regardless.

But I will tell you one thing, YOU as a parent do not have it harder than single working mother. There is no way you can ever convince me otherwise. Oh and I'm partnered.


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## sandra063 (Jul 11, 2013)

I can only speak of my experiences. When I was a working, single mom, it was work, but being a SAHM to 3 is way more work. I could run an errand or two, bg myself during a lunch break. We weren't home as much, so there wasn't near the amount of housework. So, for me, that was easier.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
> And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


Yuuup.

Getting to finish a conversation? Not the privilege of a SAHM.

Getting to wait in line so you are actually served when its your turn?

Not the privilege of a SAHM.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Have fun hating on each other.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

So far my life as a single student mother is easier than being a sahm. Going to the school is a break..moments alone in a car are silent and I can finish a thought. Speaking to other adults on a daily basis is amazing! I love my kids but 24 hours a day is grueling, especially since my ex didn't help. When I graduate I will be a WAH, single, home schooling mom. Now that is going to be tough.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
> 
> No, moms who work do NOT do the same work as a stay at home mom and their job. I don't care what their job is. Their nanny or their babysitter cares for the children. That's why they pay them--because it's a job.
> 
> And, as for the shopping, as I'm towing my two around Trader Joes during the middle of the day I almost always see a working mom friend who says, "Oh, it's so hard. I have to do this during my lunch break." And I always think, "Wow. You get a lunch BREAK?????" But I can't say it because I have to grab my toddler before she knocks that stand of crackers down


Only true for moms who work OUT of the home AND/OR who have a nanny/babysitter. I know WAHP of infants/toddlers who don't have any daycare/babysitter/nanny/etc. They DO have to do everything a SAHP does AND work. I know one WAHM whose baby JUST turned 2, she JUST had a baby, and her "maternity leave" is just cutting slighly back on her work- she still has to keep up with her business and such, and she's only taking 6 weeks of that "maternity leave". And people are still complaining that she isn't doing enough and grumbling about why she doesn't put her kids in daycare so that she can do more work.

I'm sure her fully employed husband helps around the house sometimes- but I also know plenty of SAHP whose spouse/partner helps around the house after work as well. I know there are also WOH partners/spouses to SAHP who have no sympathy and will refuse to lift a finger with housework or childcare, but that's not true for everyone and I've seen it be true for WAHP as well as SAHP. As has been repeatedly stated- it varies wildly by situation.

I'm not saying that WAHP always have it worse or always do exactly the same thing SAHP do AND a job. I'm not saying all SAHP are lazy and could do a full time job if they just applied themselves. As has been repeatedly stated, it varies so wildly that htis conversation is pointless and the working parents who deride SAHP are ignoring a lot of realities and usually being unfair. But so are the people who are making disparaging remarks of working parents. The OP specifically said "Do WOH/WAH moms do everything I do as a SAHM plus work a full time job?"- not specifying WOHP ONLY, including WAHP in it. A lot of the comments on this topic seem to be ignoring that many WAHP don't have nannies/daycare/etc and have to take care of very young children and the household while doing a full time WAH job.


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## IngaAnne (Nov 19, 2009)

To answer the original question: Do WOH/WAH moms do everything I do as a SAHM plus work a full time job? ... I've been both and the answer is no, when I worked full time I didn't do everything I do everything I do now, plus work. I didn't have all this wonderful time to be with my child! I still had to cook and clean, run errands and was constantly attached to a breast pump trying to get enough milk for daycare. My work breaks consisted of being attached to a pump, as well, stressing about the fact that I wasn't at my desk getting work done. My absolute favorite part of the day, was visiting my son at my abbreviated lunchtime (the one hour minus my two pump breaks) so he could breastfeed and I could be in his sweet presence. When I was at work, I was miserable and wanted to be with my child. Outside of work, I was getting everything ready to go to work again and still wishing I could just be with my child. It was the worst time in my life. I love being a SAHM. I have my moments when I feel I might go crazy from dealing with unreasonable childhood phases some days, painful boredom other days, and always worrying about lack of money, but I know this is what I want and where I'll be happiest and that I'm so lucky to have this opportunity. Obviously, my day would be more stressful if I had a whole bunch of little ones, but trying to WOH on top of that would be an absolute nightmare. Being a mom is never easy, but being a SAHM definitely makes life more enjoyable for me (and hopefully my child!).


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> Whatever have fun hating on each other, Martyrs.


i am not sure they are "hating on each other" or being "martyrs" i think they are voicing their feelings. the OP stated a comment she has been told, and it is not ture. there is NO WAY any one person can do all the things all the time. you may have a job outside the home or even in the home but you still can not do EVERYTHING and work. someone some where is helping you. whether it is a daycare, a nanny, the dad, grandma, sister... someone is watching the kid(s) OR you are working your butt off all night so you can be there during the day, but even then you are giving up something.

and honestly sometimes it stings when the idea of "out of the home work" is viewed so much higher than being home with the kids. so when you are at Trader Joe's and the kids are being nutty and you run in to a friend who is on her lunch break, yeah it feels a bit like a slap when you hear "oh i do what you do AND have a job". NO you went to trader joe's on your own. LOL while you were at work SOMEONE was watching your kids, NOT YOU. which is fine. for goodness sake. it is ok if you work outside the home because you have to, or because you want to. it is ok to love your job. it is ok. what is not ok is devaluing someone else (by acting as if they are somehow lazy for not working outside the home AND doing A,B,C). and sometimes as a SAHm it gets under your skin.

my oldest turned 19 this year. i have been parenting for almost 2 decades. and most of that i have worked at least part time, at nights, weekends, holidays, to make ends meet. recently, the last three years, i have been blessed to be able to stay home. and i can tell you... i NEVER did as much at home as i do now. and my husband and i worked opposite shifts so at least he was home with the kids. we do homeschool, so most of the kids are home with me ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. and yes, when someone says they have a lunch break some days i don't know whether to laugh or cry. BUT i know that my other choice just is no longer workable for us. and i have bad days and good days, just like when i worked outside the home.

i think being able to VOICE feelings, frustrations, guilt, anger, hurt feelings.. doesn't make someone a martyr. it makes them a human. when our society says how important mothering is, and yet does nothing to help mothers and then you have people posting studies that say we really don't spend more time with your kids and people tell you they do so much more than you and all you can see is you are up to your eyeballs in your life... yeah, you do think... LUNCH BREAK??? must be nice.

and this is in no way devaluing WOHM. because that is a tough job too. mothering in general is a tough job. and you have to make choices. do you work the night shift to be with the kids and not get enough sleep?? do you work 3 12 hour days so you have 4 off? do you work early (and not get to be there in the morning) so you can pick them up? what if you have an office job and have to work 8-5?

in the end the WOHM is not in fact doing all the things and the stuffs AND working outside the home. it just isn't possible. that doesn't mean she isn't busting her butt. unless she has a time turner, she is not doing it all and working.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I just want to remind responders on this thread not to engage in name calling or personal attacks. I understand this is a sensitive topic, but I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I don't think the point of this thread was to debate the question of who has it harder, and I agree that just perpetrates the whole "mommy wars" thing, but I can't help but think that this battle is manipulated and inflamed by people who are not the actual participants in the motherhood experience, generally for the purpose of creating controversy in order to gain financially.

From personal experience, I have generally seen the sentiment "I do all that AND have a job" expressed towards women who chose to stay home with their babies in the early years. When I first stayed home with my daughter about 14 years ago, there were a few people who had no qualms expressing the opinion that it was laziness on the part of the mother to not have a job, sometimes along with the old-fashioned idea that breastfeeding is anti-feminist and women shouldn't be giving up their power in the workplace on the basis of biology when technology is available to circumvent that. But the bottom line is someone has to care for children when they are infants, and whether you choose to do the work yourself, or pay someone else to do it, it is clearly a job. It's one thing to say that you're not a full-time mother when you have a job, which of course you are. I don't define motherhood in one particular way. But it's quite another to say, "I do everything you do and I work too" because it devalues the work that caretakers of children have to do.

But none of this has to do with who has it harder, and that is a completely ridiculous argument to get into, in my opinion.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> I can't help but think that this battle is manipulated and inflamed by people who are not the actual participants in the motherhood experience, generally for the purpose of creating controversy in order to gain financially.
> 
> ...


This makes a lot of asumptions. What would a comparison look like of a nursing/co-sleeping/pumping WOHM to a SAHM whose children go to bed in a separate room for 12 hours every night.... Hmmm... With regard to parenting, yeah, I think there really are parents who 'do all that AND have a job'. The 'all that' refers to the actual parenting and active engagement time with children. I think the main thing WOHM miss out on is sleep. Its just very hard. I don't think caretakers shoud ever be devalued, but I think WOHM's feel devalued when people claim that the 40 hours a week that they are outside of the home are WAY more critical than the 128 hours a week that they are actually in the home. Many babies with working moms end up reverse-cycling, so they are asleep for most of the time mom is out of the house. Pretty comparable to a mom who puts baby/toddler in a crib every night... Just food for thought...


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> I think the main thing WOHM miss out on is sleep. .... Many babies with working moms end up reverse-cycling, so they are asleep for most of the time mom is out of the house.


That's an interesting perspective and I'd never heard that before, this reverse-cycling thing of becoming nocturnal and sleeping most of the time from 8:30am-5:30pm when mom isn't available. That certainly would create a temporary situation of 'doing all that AND having a job' for the period when the infant is in that mode. In a matter of months, I would think that as the baby becomes a toddler and active, that it would be natural for them to want to explore the world while it's daylight and that would come to an end. THEN the WOH mom is *not* just missing out on sleep, but *also* on those moments during the 9 hours per day her walking little one is exploring the world and learning new things in the presence of whoever is caring for him/her. Probably those are more than half of her child's waking hours, so quite a large chunk --the majority-- of the experience of watching her awake little one grow up.

I'm not trying to be judgy or snarky, just realistic. Women have crap options, if you ask me. I'm about to have my first daughter and I really hope when she's making motherhood choices that the options are a bit better, and include more options to bring your baby to work, and/or more societies have made longer full paid maternity leave (1-3 years with their job security 100% intact to return to) a normal thing and women don't need to feel like they are taking a step off their career path if they want to stay with their little ones even for the first 3 years.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I dont want a start a debate, but i dont agree that the main thing that WOHMs miss out on is sleep. Come on...

On the issue of lunchbreaks, or waiting in line,the other day, i bought tickets to go on a ferry/watertaxi. I was first in line to buy the tickets. But, since i have an active toddler to look after, i had to follow her around, along with my two older boys, and could not wait in line, In the meantime, the line filled up. I put myself at the front of the line in order to get on the boat once the boat arrived. Some people (without children), hissed and grumbled, like they had a better sense of ethics than i did. I told them i had bought the tickets before them, but that unlike them, i didnt have the privilege of waiting in line. (i did not mention, that because unlike them, i was an active duty taking care of 3 children right then)

See, thats a job in itself. Thats what i am referring to. Thats not being a martyr, thats saying it how it is and sticking up for myself in a non child friendly world where everything revolves around the single adult.

Being a WOHM i imagine would be difficult. Noone said it wasnt. But it has certain advantages, depending on the type of job, for eg, getting some time to just focus on an activity without interruption(maybe you get to go on facebook?), maybe some credit for the work you do, some respect (the paycheck as well of course). But it isnt logistically possible to be the same as someone who is at home with their children. In my opinion, PRESENCE, is part of parenting in itself.

Everyone has their challenges. I would like mothering to be valued for what it is, hardwork, but a labor of joy.

The truth is, i feel a bit sorry for someone who has to be away from their young/or even older children for large segments of the day. Thats really why i dont want to debate the subject too much. Even as finacnially strapped as i am, and with all the difficulties of sahm'ing, and with all the work i do that noone helps me with, i feel more privileged. No Martyr here, i feel completely blessed, dishevelledly blessed perhaps. I like that our family stays together. I dislike how the norm in our society that values money before all else separates families on a constant basis.

Thankyou for your interesting comments voila and mamaofthree.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm confused, do ya'll really think WOHP have it easier? Less stress? None of the same problems as any of the stay at homes have?


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I'm confused, do ya'll really think WOHP have it easier? Less stress? None of the same problems as any of the stay at homes have?


Sorry to barge in on this thread - haven't posted on MDC in while but this one caught my eye because I've seen the thread title quoted by various people on the internet and it often irritates me that these little underhanded comments are the best we can do in supporting our positions.

I agree with a prior poster(s) that it is silly and non-productive to argue about who has it harder or easier. It is all so subjective. One is not easier or harder than the other, they are simply different. One of my difficulties as a WOHM is that I'm constantly switching gears. My particular profession (lawyer) requires me to spend a lot of time thinking of and evaluating issues and there are times of the week that I feel totally drained from a mental standpoint. Spending time with DD and DH actually rejuvenates me, so I don't see home life as "hard" at all. On the other hand, I have a good friend/neighbor who is a SAHM and she often looks frazzled and I know she needs a break. Neither of us have it harder or easier, we just deal with separate issues. She has zero spousal support (her DH rarely helps her at all) and I have great support with DH.

I think part of the reason that we see or hear statements like "I do all that and have a job" is that many working moms lack support from their partners. I can't imagine having to be in charge of all things at home as well as handle an intense work situation. DH participates fully in household managment and DD's school-related activities. I'm not doing it all because I have a partner who is right there beside me. Our family couldn't function any other way and I feel extremely fortunate for that.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Cats that's where I'm at. My partner and I are on equal footing because they're his kids too. We work together to get things done. I'm the one that works and he stays home, yet I come home and pitch in immediately. I couldn't imagine doing it any other way.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I'm confused, do ya'll really think WOHP have it easier? Less stress? None of the same problems as any of the stay at homes have?


No, I don't think that. If I thought that, I'd have gone back to work right after I had a baby. It's much easier to successfully breastfeed, I feel, if you don't have to return to work right away.

What I am taking away from all of this is not the who has it easier, because I know I have it easier than a lot of people, probably the majority of people in the world. I know that the parents in Syria have it harder than most of the rest of us. I don't see the benefit in having the who has it harder argument, because, frankly, I don't want to have it harder. But then that comes down to the question of understanding that you have a privilege. I was privileged to be able to stay home with my children. I've known people who were privileged enough not to have to, to have a rewarding career to return to. Then I've know people who would have loved to have stayed home with their children, but they couldn't. I didn't make enough at my job that I could justify paying for a babysitter. It made sense for me to quit. I didn't have what I would consider a career. I knew another mom who decided to take an extended leave from her job, like for a year or so...actually, I think she tried to resign, but after a few months, she realized she was done being at home. Her job really valued her and they gave her even more money to come back. She was very happy with that. I never had a job like that. Many of the people I've known have worked right up until the day they go into labor, and then go back after a few weeks. One poor mama I knew returned to work 2 days after giving birth. She had no choice.

I think it's good to understand your privilege and that you have things in the world others don't, while others have things you don't. It's always going to be this way, but understanding it can help us not to be as critical of others.

The thing that resonated with me when I saw the original post was the idea that I have encountered, that some people insist on proclaiming which is that women shouldn't stay home with their children, that you can be a full time mother and a full time employee, and do both well, but if you stay home with your children, you are just wasting your time, you are lazy, you are not living up to your full potential. As if, somehow, during the time you are alone with your children, they require nothing of you, you both just turn off your switches and get stored in a closet while the others are at work.

Sure you can be a full time mother and work full time, because you are always a mother; but the caring and raising of children is something that always has to be done, no matter who is doing it. There is a benefit to children, I feel, in having experiences with other adults as caretakers, but those people are doing some of the work and you have a different experience when you are doing all the mental and physical work of caring for a child during a significant portion of your day. If you have to pay for childcare or for school, you realize that good childrearing has a cost. Someone is doing that work even if it's not the parents.

Of course, the other thing I used to see before I had kids was, "You don't have kids, so you obviously have plenty of time." And now that my kids are in school and I've taken on a lot more volunteer activities I hear, "I can't do that, I work fulltime! You'll have to do it." It still feels the same way, people are telling me my time isn't valuable because I don't have a life as they see it. I will say, though, that if I do get a job, I will stop doing the other things people expect of me because I won't have time. I feel like it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round, but I really need to have a paycheck now.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Viola I successfully breastfed two kids while being full time military. It can be done. Though you end up spending a lot of time hooked up to a breast pump. What I want to get across is that I don't think either one is harder than the other and yes they are really two different ways of life. The I do all that and have a job is probably based on guilt. Wanting to feel like they're giving their children as much of them as possible but still keeping up with their other responsibilities. And the stay at homes may feel looked down upon. Nobody is walking out of this 100% there will be something to make it harder.

As far as staying home ruining your worth... it only ruins your worth in the work place. It doesn't ruin your worth in life or your family.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed (skipped a couple of pages), but I also wonder if there is a generational difference in the focus of the SAHM, as well as just a shift in general in mothering practices. Here's what I mean: my mom was a SAHM, most moms were in the 1960's. There were a few working moms in our neighborhood but SAHM was the prevalent thing. So my mom didn't spend her day with me. She didn't entertain me or try to enrich me or take me on play dates. We were expected to 'go out and play.' We found our friends and played. I'm not sure exactly what my mom did ALL day, but I think she cleaned a bit in the morning, watched soap operas in the afternoon (sometimes while ironing), and eventually she made dinner, cleaned up, etc. In the summer we went to the beach all morning, did swimming lessons, then ditto on the afternoon.

When women began entering the workforce in great numbers, suddenly the balance shifted. SAHM's became the minority, due to economics, and a lot of other societal factors (increase in divorce rate, equal pay for equal work, etc.) And women did begin to believe in themselves more. When that happened, the moms who could SAHM showed a greater focus on the kids, leaning toward homeschooling, enrichment, etc. Not so much "go out and play." I am not judging any of these things, I am just reflecting on societal changes and forces. A hypothesis that I have heard spoken of is that SAHM suddenly felt more of a need to justify their staying home by doing more to improve their kids lives. It was natural to get defensive when so many other moms were working, and natural to claim that they were taking the high road, and doing better for their kids. I have had these conversations with my siblings and with many other women.

I just get perplexed about why women can't just accept differences in each other's paths--why the comparing always has to go on......


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## treehugz (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> The thing that resonated with me when I saw the original post was the idea that I have encountered, that some people insist on proclaiming which is that women shouldn't stay home with their children, that you can be a full time mother and a full time employee, and do both well, but if you stay home with your children, you are just wasting your time, you are lazy, you are not living up to your full potential. As if, somehow, during the time you are alone with your children, they require nothing of you, you both just turn off your switches and get stored in a closet while the others are at work.


Yes, Viola. This is exactly the attitude that I'm talking about and why I started the thread.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lauren*  . *A hypothesis that I have heard spoken of is that SAHM suddenly felt more of a need to justify their staying home by doing more to improve their kids lives*. It was natural to get defensive when so many other moms were working, and natural to claim that they were taking the high road, and doing better for their kids. I have had these conversations with my siblings and with many other women.
> 
> I just get perplexed about why women can't just accept differences in each other's paths--why the comparing always has to go on......


 Interesting hypothesis although I havent personally observed that pattern. I dont think SAHMS today want or need to justify themselves. I dont. If i had a back yard, i would be that hands off SAHM. But i like to be present.


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## crazyms (Jan 8, 2010)

I've almost always worked part time and sometimes even fulltime or 2-3 jobs at once with kids. I did get the opportunity to stay at home full time and homeschool for a year or so but am currently WOH PT but aiming to get make home full time again so I've done all the ends of this spectrum depending on what I needed at the time. Everyone's situation is different and we each do what's best for our own families, in my case constantly changing to suit what we need at the current time lol. It is hard to be a WOH mom and still have to do everything I would even if I stayed at home. It's harder on me than some moms since DH works off so I get the single mama fun 3 weeks out of the month with him not here at all to help me. My job is also a job where I'm the only one at work and that's fine when it's slow and I can kind of relax at work but if it's not slow there isn't a break at all. I don't have scheduled 'breaks' or lunch break at work with that time to decompress. I choose to involve my kids in activities for them so that adds more to my plate. Thing is though it's all a choice. We each do what we need to and what we can. I do work AND still do all the things I'd do at home but here's the deal... as a WOHM even part time I do more convenient meals and use a dryer. Just two things that if I stayed home would mostly end. I'd be making even more from scratch and line drying more so I could save money thus making more 'work' for me. It's a trade off.


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