# What the @#$% is wrong with me?



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Tongiht, when I was in the bathroom switching the laundry, I heard the kids yelling. I come out and find DS bothering DD2, hitting random keys on the keyboard when she was on IM.

I totally lost control, and started yelling at DS and hitting him.







: Repeatedly, until he stopped bothering her. I'm not even sure if he was hurting her or not (well, he started hitting her after I lost control) but he was certainly in her personal space.

Why am I so damn irritable lately? Why do I keep on taking sides in their sibling rivalries? Specifically, why do I keep on taking HER side? I mean, when he's being rough or violent with her, I do need to intervene, but not by escalating the situation!

I'm just feeling tired and wiped out right now- and it's hard to be snuggly with him when he starts being mean on purpose and smiling when he hurts somebody. I feel like I haven't been getting enough personal space, like DD2 is taking advantage of me in terms of housework/chores, and in general I just feel like I'm barely holding myself together.

Today I had an extremely stressful morning- physically hard since I had to fast until after 11 AM for a medical test, and emotionally stressful since I got lost and couldn't have the test anyway and I'm broke and my ex owes me money and a "friend" owes me money and I just found out that this "friend"'s DD goes to the same camp as DD1 and I'll have to see her on Sunday.

It's just a whole lot of stressful stuff that has NOTHING to do with DS but is severly limiting my patience with him. I'm so sick of his constant chattering! And his normal talking voice seems to hurt my ears and trigger headaches.

I sooo wish I had my own room and I could go to bed without having to interact with him.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

s
no advice really, just totally understand the no personal space thing and the CONSTANT talk talk talk..enough to make you crazy..

how is everyone doin now?
more







s:


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I'm so sorry... I get the same way when I don't get enough time to myself and my DS is being annoying, too. And I seriously understand the need for silence!


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I think 5 yo's can be like that sometimes...Sorry about your stressful day! Do you drink wine?


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm so sorry it's been so hard. I think we can all relate to the overload at times.

You said you were wondering why his stuff and their sibling rivalry triggers you...do you think it's triggering old stuff for you? I often find that when my reactions are really overdetermined for the given situation, it's probably about something else. And parenting and sibling issues can really bring that old stuff out.

Hang in there...it'll get better. Sounds like a rough patch. And I second the wine suggestion if you drink!


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

I don't really have any advice, just wanted to commiserate









I have been having a difficult time being patient with my 7yr old dd lately. I find myself irritated with her most of the time. Personal space is crucial to me too, and with 3 kiddos, it's in short supply.

I hope you feel better soon, and I agree with pp's, that sometimes a glass of wine is in order


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## DanAbimytwomiracle (Nov 29, 2004)

I'm so sorry. I really recommend reading "Siblings Without Rivalry" to help you gain some perspective. As a mom of a very intense 5 y/o boy, I totally understand how you feel. Reading that book helped me back up a bit and put things in perspective.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Could you be pregnant? Seriously, when I got pregnant with this one. I couldn't believe who irritiable I got - I felt like I wasn't even myself. I found out about homeopathic Sepia that really helped me get it together (though I don't know if it is kosher to take it). DD is still alot for me to handle while pregnant - she's so noisey at this age! My MIL has been saving my life by taking her for a few days at a time, so I can rest and recharge. Is there anyway you can just get a break from DS? I hope you feel better soon!


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

It's the weather. I almost wrote a post with the same sentiment, involving a child, a dog, and yanking the kid away from the dog and just yelling at him for a few minutes before I could calm down. It was the final straw in a long afternoon, which also had such gems as tying his shorts' string to another customer's cart and circling his monster truck in the road (a no-no) while dad was trying to get home from work. Ugh.

Stress can do funny things to you, and the things tend to go way out of proportion. The saving grace, though, is a mistake isn't forever. There's always something you can do to help lessen it.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 







I think 5 yo's can be like that sometimes...Sorry about your stressful day! Do you drink wine?










If she doesnt I think she needs to start


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

Been where you are. There are days I wanna tape DS1's mouth shut, tie DS2's hands behind his back and Get a taxi service for the 16 year old DD. I want a maid, a cook, and an on call bartender. lol. We all freak out now and then, become over stressed and when your bucket is full its hard for it not to tip mama. Sleep on the couch tonight, after a long hot bath, and a bottle of wine, with some chocolate of course.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Please read Unconditional Parenting ASAP.

And hitting him doesn't teach him not to hit. Obviously. Is that a memory you want him to have of you?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Could you be pregnant?

This just had me cracking up. I haven't had sex in at least a year.

Wine doesn't really relax me- it makes me sleepy, and I get even more irritable when I'm overtired. It also lowers my inhibitions- which I can't imagine would be a good thing when I'm already having trouble controlling my temper. It's also not a good idea for me to drink with my liver problems- the medical test I missed yesterday (and still need to reschedual) was a liver/gallbladder ultrasound.

Last night I managed to calm down enough to snuggle with him a few minutes before bed, but not for as long as he normally likes to snuggle. I also didn't stay in the room with him until he fell asleep- I stayed with him for about 10 minutes and then left. Then I curled up on the couch with a good book, and whenever DD2 tried to talk to me I told her to leave me alone; that I just needed some kid-free time even if she was in the room with me, I didn't have the patience to interact with anybody.


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

BTDT - I always hate myself when I take out frustration for other things on my kids - but we ARE human. But it's always a wake-up call to me to take some time to myself. Baths are great - once the kids are asleep. After that relaxation, you can go watch them sleep and think about how cute they are when they're asleep!!!

By the way, if it's sibling issues you're struggling with, I LOVE "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me" (can't remember by who - but definitely GD).

But the best reading you could do now might be some bodice-bearing novel found at a local drugstore that you don't mind dropping in the aforementioned bath!!!!!

Hugs mama!!!


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
This just had me cracking up. I haven't had sex in at least a year.

Oh, yeah, oops, I forgot your whole life situation - too late at night for me I guess! I bet alone time will help - you probably aren't getting much of that?


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

When you are already stressed about Life in general...everything else is just *amplified* KWIM?

If I am stressing over something that could have an immediate negative impact on our family, I need to THINK...to PROCESS it...to PLAN my next step and if DS is just chattering away and invading my much-needed-personal-space...well, I snap too.









And yes you DO feel bad about it because you are human.

You have got to get some Me Time.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom22girls* 
Baths are great - once the kids are asleep.

Now, both kids being asleep at the same time never happens at my house- unless it's the middle of the night and I'm also asleep.

DD has been staying up past midnight lately- and as late as 2 or 3 if I'm not up with her making sure she gets to bed (like if I go to sleep with DS.) DS has been waking up around 9 AM.

Most days, I'm up with DD until I go to bed, and up with DS as soon as I wake up. Child-free time simply does not exist!!!


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I know it is so hard when you NEED me time and there isn't really much of a way to get it.

I've been in tough spots and really lost it with my kids. I've been fortunate enough to have never hit them, but I did walk out in the front yard in my socks in the dead of winter and left the two of them crying in the house (ages 1 and 5). My 1 yr old was so upset he puked all over himself. So I know about having those moments you regret, and also about those awful feelings of just wanting to get AWAY from your kids.

I hope things get better for you. I've been lucky, homeopathy has been helping me.








s

~Tracy


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Hi Ruthla,

Just wanted to offer you my support. I am having a hard time with one child and can't imagine dealing with sibling rivalries, so my hat goes out to you.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

for you, I have been in this position more times than I'd like to admit. And I've read Unconditional Parenting. And I bought Siblings without Rivalry and read most of it too. I've also started reading "Mother Nurture" by Rick Hanson et al. On page 81 (in the section on self-forgiveness) they outline it like this:

(please don't get scared away by the word 'incompetence' - it just means we all recognize that our overreactions are inappropriate)

"Stage 1: Unconcious Incompetence: You're not aware of the problem

Stage 2: Conscious Incompetence: You realize you shouldn't be doing it, but
you can't stop yourself. This is by far the most unconfortable stage.

Stage 3: Conscious Competence: The inclination to snap harshly still arises within your mind, but you catch it and do something different, like take a deep breath and speak more calmly.

Stage 4: Unconscious Competence: The tendency doesn't even arise. Sometimes it's even hard to remember that you used to act in a different way"

I'm guessing you're stuck at #2, trying to get to #3. That's about where I am. Things I am trying to remember to do are like couting in my head or deep breathing, or stepping back to view the situation from a distance. Once I pretended my kids were actually someone's kids on mdc, and I was reading a thread about the behaviour rather than seeing it firsthand from my own kids. I was much nicer in my response. I've also done some meditating and have discovered some interesting things about myself and why I react.
It's hard to remember to stop before reacting. I've actually got a reward chart for myself, of sorts. It's just a tally sheet to count the number of positive interactions I foster with my kids. Being nice to my kids in intrinsically motivating, but keeping track of it has helped me stop and think before acting.

hth!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail* 







for you, I have been in this position more times than I'd like to admit. And I've read Unconditional Parenting. And I bought Siblings without Rivalry and read most of it too. I've also started reading "Mother Nurture" by Rick Hanson et al. On page 81 (in the section on self-forgiveness) they outline it like this:

(please don't get scared away by the word 'incompetence' - it just means we all recognize that our overreactions are inappropriate)

"Stage 1: Unconcious Incompetence: You're not aware of the problem

Stage 2: Conscious Incompetence: You realize you shouldn't be doing it, but
you can't stop yourself. This is by far the most unconfortable stage.

Stage 3: Conscious Competence: The inclination to snap harshly still arises within your mind, but you catch it and do something different, like take a deep breath and speak more calmly.

Stage 4: Unconscious Competence: The tendency doesn't even arise. Sometimes it's even hard to remember that you used to act in a different way"

I'm guessing you're stuck at #2, trying to get to #3. That's about where I am. Things I am trying to remember to do are like couting in my head or deep breathing, or stepping back to view the situation from a distance. Once I pretended my kids were actually someone's kids on mdc, and I was reading a thread about the behaviour rather than seeing it firsthand from my own kids. I was much nicer in my response. I've also done some meditating and have discovered some interesting things about myself and why I react.
It's hard to remember to stop before reacting. I've actually got a reward chart for myself, of sorts. It's just a tally sheet to count the number of positive interactions I foster with my kids. Being nice to my kids in intrinsically motivating, but keeping track of it has helped me stop and think before acting.

hth!

Thanks! that's a great way to look at it.

I think, most of the time I'm at #3, with some things I'm even at #4, but I still get moments of #2 when I've had a particularly stressful day- like yesterday. I'm just, in general, feeling very "drained" lately.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I totally lost control, and started yelling at DS and hitting him.







: Repeatedly, until he stopped bothering her.

It sure sounds as if you're exceedingly drained on all fronts, but may I very gently tell you that *you need to get help. ASAP.* If you're not seeing a counselor then you probably need to start and if you already are seeing someone then you need to get additional therapy like anger management counseling. You _have_ to find a way to get time away from the kids _ASAP_ so that you don't take your frustrations out on DS again.

You were very out of control and _hitting your child_ and from your description it sounds to me like you had a hard time stopping.

The fact that you continue to separate/alienate from your DS after the incident makes me think that the problem continues and the likelihood of you behaving that way again in the near future is high. You hit your son and then:

Quote:

Last night I managed to calm down enough to snuggle with him a few minutes before bed, but not for as long as he normally likes to snuggle. I also didn't stay in the room with him until he fell asleep- I stayed with him for about 10 minutes and then left.

Even after losing control and hitting him you still felt angry with him. That's concerning, imho.

Here it almost sounds as if you're justifying your behavior:

Quote:

I'm just feeling tired and wiped out right now- and it's hard to be snuggly with him when he starts being mean on purpose and smiling when he hurts somebody. I feel like I haven't been getting enough personal space, like DD2 is taking advantage of me in terms of housework/chores, and in general I just feel like I'm barely holding myself together.

Today I had an extremely stressful morning- physically hard since I had to fast until after 11 AM for a medical test, and emotionally stressful since I got lost and couldn't have the test anyway and I'm broke and my ex owes me money and a "friend" owes me money and I just found out that this "friend"'s DD goes to the same camp as DD1 and I'll have to see her on Sunday.

It's just a whole lot of stressful stuff that has NOTHING to do with DS but is severly limiting my patience with him. I'm so sick of his constant chattering! And his normal talking voice seems to hurt my ears and trigger headaches.

Parenting is the hardest job in the world but hitting your DS is not a way to deal with it. I understand that he was irritating you greatly and you were losing your patience but that's still no excuse...that's exactly the time when people hit their kids- when they're irritated, mad and losing it, not when they're happy and relaxed.

You need more than a "glass of wine" or to "take a hot bath" to deal with this. This is beyond being "drained". A great many people that post here are drained, all the time or much of the time, but they don't hit their kids, no matter how highly irritatingly the dc's are behaving and how drained the moms and dads are.

Your post would worry me less if you had a plan to deal with your irritation at DS or if you seemed to actually _be_ less irritated at him after the incident, but he's still getting on your last nerve, so the problem with him remains and so do all the other problems listed in your post. And I doubt DS has changed in the last day, so he will be as irritating in his behavior to you tomorrow as he was today. So that all seems like a recipe for another occurance unless you change something inside yourself in some way- i.e., counseling.

I guess you know all this already, I'm just trying to make sure that you see the reality of the situation....because sometimes when we're stressed and irritated our minds can distort things in an unreal way and minimize a situation. _This should be a major wake up call to you that something big has to change_. Utilizing this icon --->







: doesn't accurately represent the way you should be dealing with this.

Honestly, I can't believe that I'm the only person in this thread to address this aspect of the issue. This whole thread is upsetting. Please do whatever you have to to get a break from the kids somehow tomorrow and please seek help.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk* 

Honestly, I can't believe that I'm the only person in this thread to address this aspect of the issue. This whole thread is upsetting. Please do whatever you have to to get a break from the kids somehow tomorrow and please seek help.


you aren't the only one who felt bothered. my big thought was, it's unbelievable how we start 5 page threads on the mom we saw yell at their child in walmart. we bash them & never give them the benefit of the doubt that we *may* have just caught them in a very bad moment....yet we all have such empathy on a thread like this. i certainly don't think we should bash ruthla by any means!! but for everyone to act like, "hey, no big deal" is a little hard for me to understand i guess.

believe me... i get upset too, so ruthla...i'm not coming down on you for losing your temper. but i completely agree with the other poster, that to "repeatedly" yell and hit your child is a real concern that is simply not okay and you should try to address this issue beyond posting about it here....if you aren't already. hugs to you mama.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If it were me, I would get someone in to help me with the kids for an hour or two every day so I had a break, and I'd get some kind of counseling or something ASAP to help me control the rage issue. Depending on how bad it was, I might even ask my mother-in-law to stay with us for a while to protect my kids from me, honestly.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I guess I thought the OP was posting because she knows things are out of control and could use some help. I didn't see it as her not being aware that there is a problem and just venting but I saw the post as a cry for help. I think that is why people are treading softly. Just my two cents.

Shay


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I was thinking along the same lines as Shay. Of course, hitting is not acceptable and Ruthla knows that, I'm sure. She's such a long time poster here. She did entitle her thread "What the @#$% is wrong with me?" after all! Ruthla, I haven't been keeping up with whatever is going on in your life, but I send you best wishes in order that you get a handle on things and feel better so that you can be the wonderful parent I know you want to be.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I guess I thought the OP was posting because she knows things are out of control and could use some help. I didn't see it as her not being aware that there is a problem and just venting but I saw the post as a cry for help. I think that is why people are treading softly. Just my two cents.

Shay









:


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

I know its hard to come back and post when it seems like some of the posters aren't understanding where you're coming from. As a mom (and used to be single mom of 4) I understand....I don't condone...but I understand. Its a tough place to be...no one to lean on....no one to take the load off of YOU for a while. sometimes you just blow......and I also understand how you felt afterwards , not feeling much like doing a long snuggle and such....
WE are above all....only human. Not super human...we have no super powers (well....making milk is pretty super...







)
We do the best we can at the time.....and to look back and beat yourself up is of no good. You love your kiddos , I can tell.....
mama....please , please , please.....find a way to get some YOU time. I haven't had any me time in over a year.....NONE.....and its really , really affecting the way I parent . If you want to pm me....I would be happy to chat with you ....and will never ever judge you at all.....
blessings to you and yours......let me know how things are going for you.
(((hugs))))


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I guess I thought the OP was posting because she knows things are out of control and could use some help.

Yes, and one of the best ways to prevent a person from getting help is to make them feel that they aren't safe in sharing.

I do highly reccomend homeopathy. I was in a situation where I didn't know myself - I felt so unable to cope with my kids. I started taking homeopathic Sepia - which I learned was my constitutional remedy - and things completely changed. I didn't need counseling - I knew what I was supposed to do - just something was off for me, and the Sepia fixed it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I didn't mean to be unsupportive. I've had a rage problem - luckily before I had a child, and it turned out to be caused by a medication - so I do understand how it feels. But I felt like I should be honest about what I would do in that situation. Because I have had a problem with it, I have put some thought into what I'd do if it happened again now that I'm a mom.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

(((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))) Ruthla, believe me I understand what it is like. For the mamas who don't get what it's like to be a single mom, please try to imagine it for a second. You are responsible 24/7. There is little to no help. If you are lucky enough to have an X that takes good care of the kids and has them for visitation then you are usually using the free time to do things like the cleaning the house uninterrupted or running errands and appointments that you can't or don't want to do while you have the kids. And there is no end in sight. There is no DH that will be coming home soon to distract the kids so you can have a few moments to yourself, that precious time does not exist for those of us without partners. Couple that with emotional stress from a breakup, financial issues, children who are also hurting and taking it out on you and on each other, and the constant juggling act that takes place while you are trying to balance parenting children alone and ekeing out survival for your family. Counseling really doesn't solve those issues and in turn it adds one more thing to the list that needs to be done. What she needs, what we all need, is some help and some free time. Unfortunately a lot of us don't have family near by or a support network that we can rely on regularly to give us consistent breaks, so we do the best we can until we are ready to run screaming off the edge of the earth. So what do we do aside from trying very hard not to lose our minds?


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I guess I thought the OP was posting because she knows things are out of control and could use some help. I didn't see it as her not being aware that there is a problem and just venting but I saw the post as a cry for help. *I think that is why people are treading softly*. Just my two cents.

Shay

Treading softly? _She hit her 5 year old child, repeatedly_. This is not the time to tread softly, IMO. I hope OP agrees.

Many people suggested a glass of wine. This is not an appropriate response to this post, IMO, whether people were commiserating or not.

I think we can all agree that parenting is very hard but this is the time for emergency, drastic action on the part of Ruthla... but then I'm merely repeating myself at this point, no need to beat a dead horse.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i don't disregard the difficulty of parenting, especially if you're going it alone. i am certain ruthla loves her children & i don't question her desire to be the best parent she can. my only point is how incredibly double-standard the advice on these boards can be. i have read posts of mother's yelling at their children at walmart threatening to spank them (which no one saw - it was only heard) and everyone post in total disgust & say CALL CPS! i have read post of a sister slapping her toddler's hand because the toddler repeatedly kept trying to touch a hot stove, & the replies are....CALL CPS! but when a MDC member is at her wits end (which we all get there, i agree!) and she repeatedly admits to yelling at & hitting her 5 year old....the advice is so sympathetic.

i am just baffled as to WHY?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

When you say "hitting repeatedly" what do you mean? Were you hitting in face or back or where? I also agree with the poster that said this is alarming. Oh my goodness you should see me - I know I am not a perfect parent. I have a major anger problem too. But the one time that I lost control really bad and starting hitting my son repeatedly (on the back, arms and I think maybe once in the head) I got help ASAP! That is just dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. I too am shocked that more people have not been really worried about this. Whether the mom knows it was wrong has little bearing on the situation. I thought this was the gentle discipline forum and I thought that the foremost thing was supposed to be the child. I'm sorry, but if I came on here saying I screamed at and hit my child repeatedly I sure hope someone would have to balls to tell me that I better get help right now!


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

Maybe I have a different perspective on this.

I grew up with a mother who had a difficult life. Much of it was of her own making, but some things were not. She was always stressed out, always on the brink of a breakdown. She did try to give us material things, take us places, give us lessons/opportunities and outwardly she may have looked like a perfect mom. She had lots of friends. She was pretty. She was smart, had a nice little part-time job and lots of activities.

We were high-strung kids with problems of our own. We did not get along. We fought bitterly and constantly. It made my mother furious. She reacted very poorly. Her personal stress was channeled into a blinding rage and our infractions gave her an opportunity to release it. I don't think she started out intending to do the things she did- but once she started hitting, she didn't stop until she exhausted her wrath.

It wasn't always that way. I remember her being nearly perfect when I was very young. I don't think I'd even been spanked once before my brother was born. Once she started hitting us though, it became a regular thing. I used to love my mom. I thought she was the best person alive. By the time I was 10, I dreaded coming home from school. Sometimes she was great, but you just never knew what would set her off.

Ruthla, I have always liked your posts. You seem like a great mom. Please get some help for yourself. Get some time away from your children. Find out what is really, really bothering you. I'd bet there is more to this than a frustrating little boy and his sister. I think my mom started out with the best of intentions. I don't think she ever anticipated that things would end up the way they did. Events can spiral out of control though. The trick is to stop them before that happens.

I really wish you and yours all the best.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Tongiht, when I was in the bathroom switching the laundry, I heard the kids yelling. I come out and find DS bothering DD2, hitting random keys on the keyboard when she was on IM.

I totally lost control, and started yelling at DS and hitting him.







: Repeatedly, until he stopped bothering her. I'm not even sure if he was hurting her or not (well, he started hitting her after I lost control) but he was certainly in her personal space.

Why am I so damn irritable lately? Why do I keep on taking sides in their sibling rivalries? Specifically, why do I keep on taking HER side? I mean, when he's being rough or violent with her, I do need to intervene, but not by escalating the situation!

I'm just feeling tired and wiped out right now- and it's hard to be snuggly with him when he starts being mean on purpose and smiling when he hurts somebody. I feel like I haven't been getting enough personal space, like DD2 is taking advantage of me in terms of housework/chores, and in general I just feel like I'm barely holding myself together.

Today I had an extremely stressful morning- physically hard since I had to fast until after 11 AM for a medical test, and emotionally stressful since I got lost and couldn't have the test anyway and I'm broke and my ex owes me money and a "friend" owes me money and I just found out that this "friend"'s DD goes to the same camp as DD1 and I'll have to see her on Sunday.

It's just a whole lot of stressful stuff that has NOTHING to do with DS but is severly limiting my patience with him. I'm so sick of his constant chattering! And his normal talking voice seems to hurt my ears and trigger headaches.

I sooo wish I had my own room and I could go to bed without having to interact with him.

There is nothing wrong with you mama. You've listed reasons why a mama would be stressed out, and try as we may, we are human, and can only take so much stress. You DS's actions just sent you over the edge.

Why are you so irritable toward your DS when he gets violent on purpose? Because you are a mama who is against violence. And though you struck out at your DS when he was violating the personal space of your DD doesn't make you out of control, it means thast you did what any mama would do, no matter who was harrassing your child, you defended her. I am sure you would come to the defense of your DS had it been your dd who was the aggressor.

And we all "lose" it at times. Sometimes life gets over-whelming and our kids sense that and because stressed as well. It just turns into a little stressful cycle.

In times like this, I have to FORCE myself to drop everything, wipe out all negative thoughts from my mind, and take dd out. Either to the park, a walk down the street, the grocery store, or just outside the house. Sometimes four walls can be menacing to the mind.

All we can do is learn from what we consider mistakes, make a new plan of action should the situation arise again, and move on.

You are a kind and aware mama, dont let these little road bumps get you down


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Ruthla- please consider the posts of those who know you best. We love you mama.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"And though you struck out at your DS when he was violating the personal space of your DD doesn't make you out of control, it means thast you did what any mama would do, no matter who was harrassing your child, you defended her. I am sure you would come to the defense of your DS had it been your dd who was the aggressor."

You're kidding me right? He was pushing buttons on a computer keyboard. Hardly dangerous or aggressive behaviour. Sure he was being a pain in the posterior but you honestly don't think her reaction was over the top? She started screaming and hitting him REPEATEDLY. No that is not what any mother would do. I understand stress - like I said I have had major problems with temper too. It just blows my mind that you actually consider it an appropriate or normal response to scream at and hit a 5 year REPEATEDLY for irritating his sister. Pardon me, I'm going to go check the URL to see what website I am on.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
"And though you struck out at your DS when he was violating the personal space of your DD doesn't make you out of control, it means thast you did what any mama would do, no matter who was harrassing your child, you defended her. I am sure you would come to the defense of your DS had it been your dd who was the aggressor."

You're kidding me right? He was pushing buttons on a computer keyboard. Hardly dangerous or aggressive behaviour. Sure he was being a pain in the posterior but you honestly don't think her reaction was over the top? She started screaming and hitting him REPEATEDLY. No that is not what any mother would do. I understand stress - like I said I have had major problems with temper too. It just blows my mind that you actually consider it an appropriate or normal response to scream at and hit a 5 year REPEATEDLY for irritating his sister. Pardon me, I'm going to go check the URL to see what website I am on.

Yeah that was shocking, but I think I was more shocked about this being called "a little road bump". I'm sure the OP is a good parent or she wouldn't be looking for advice here. But sometimes the right advice isn't validation of what is happening. Sometimes the right advice is to go get some help.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I thought of a good example here. In this month's Mothering, there is an article about a mom who had PPS and who needed help. That was a much more severe situation than the OP, but still, it is someone who was out of control and needed help. The article didn't say she was a bad mother - it said she was a good mother who needed help. Then she got the help, and things were better. This is how I see this situation, on a smaller scale. The mother has a problem with rage, which is not uncommon. She is a good mother who needs help getting that problem under control. To tell her she doesn't have a problem isn't any more useful to her or her children than it would be to tell a mom with PPS that she is just suffering from "a little road bump" and she'll get over it with a glass of wine.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I thought of a good example here. In this month's Mothering, there is an article about a mom who had PPS and who needed help. That was a much more severe situation than the OP, but still, it is someone who was out of control and needed help. The article didn't say she was a bad mother - it said she was a good mother who needed help. Then she got the help, and things were better. This is how I see this situation, on a smaller scale. The mother has a problem with rage, which is not uncommon. She is a good mother who needs help getting that problem under control. To tell her she doesn't have a problem isn't any more useful to her or her children than it would be to tell a mom with PPS that she is just suffering from "a little road bump" and she'll get over it with a glass of wine.

Exactly!


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I didn't say it was normal, common, or ok.

But I know Ruthla an I know she doesn't hit her kids because of a violent temper. I know this isn't the norm for her household. This is the exception to the rule.

It's not acceptable, but telling her she is a poor parent because she reacted in a less than perfect way it not the answer.

I consider swatting a child's butt to be hitting. I consider a pop on the hand hitting. I consider pushing hitting.

Hitting is never ok. I am not condoning her behavior, but I will continue to support her so she feels comfortable coming to MDC for advice and support in getting past THIS ROAD BUMP.

This is not the end of her life as a parent. It's not the last problem she'll have as a parent. Ruthla will learn and make changes accordingly, I am sure. Arming herself with tools to better react to her son, to be more aware of her own emotions and to remove herself when she is feeling overwhelmed will go along way.

Ruthla is not a violent mother.

I think what posters lke to do, is to project their personal experiences on to others, and when they read about one incidence they use a broad brus hto paint this as a typical occurance in a mama's journey.

No, drinking a glass of wine, won't negate her actions, but it may help her to become more relaxed so she can think less emotionally. Yes, this is a bump in the road of parenting. But instead of throwing in the towel, how about learning to maneuver around and avoid future bumps?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Again, no one called her a bad mother. A bad mother wouldn't look for advice on a gentle parenting forum.

And how is looking for help "throwing in the towel"?


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Throwing in the towel: confusing one inappropriate act with a mental illness.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Again, no one called her a bad mother. A bad mother wouldn't look for advice on a gentle parenting forum.

And how is looking for help "throwing in the towel"?


I didn't say BAD, I said poor. There is a huge difference between being a bad mother and being a poor parent.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Throwing in the towel: confusing one inappropriate act with a mental illness.

Having problems controlling rage doesn't mean you have a mental illness. But it does mean you need help controlling your rage if you lose control around your children.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

How does losing control ONCE = having rage issues?


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I am kindly advising those who consider this a rage issue to take a step back and reflect on their motives for this. If this is an issue of projecting (which is a concern in and of itself) please refrain.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Ruthla, my mom had anger issues and I had anger issues before I had DD which have largely gone away but the last few weeks here have been stressful and I have found myself being snappish (verbally) in a way I just don't like. IME, when one just "loses it", there is a point where the person _can_ make the decision to not allow it to go further. It is the point where if one continues the interaction the situation will escalate. When your DS was pushing keys on the keyboard, you could have made the decision to leave the room and have a mommy-timeout but instead you went over there and hit your DS. What I started doing was picturing a time that my mom lost it on me at the critical juncture and that helped me say to myself, "is DD going to hurt herself? No? Ok, time to remove myself and count to 10." Maybe you could try picturing this last incident with your DS, not to make yourself feel guilty, but to stop yourself in your tracks at the moment that you are about to do something you will regret. Then remove yourself (unless someone is going to get hurt) for a few minutes and regain your composure.

In the long run though, try to make your life a little more peaceful if possible. People can only take so much stress. Try and eliminate some stressors, pray a little (you are religious, I believe) and talk to someone about all that is going on in your life.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
I am kindly advising those who consider this a rage issue to take a step back and reflect on their motives for this. If this is an issue of projecting (which is a concern in and of itself) please refrain.

It isn't projection. She said can't control her temper with her son, and that in this particular case she lost control and yelled at him and repeatedly hit him. She asked what she should do. We gave our opinions based on what we'd do if we had lost control with our kids and repeatedly hit them. I know what I would do - I'd go to a counselor to ask for help in controlling my rage. I have a couple of friends whom I greatly respect who have gone to counselors for that specific reason. I don't think less of them or their parenting for that - on the contrary I think it shows how caring and gentle they are that they don't gloss over it and they take care of the problem. I don't understand why you have such a negative opinion about going to a counselor when a mother has something she needs help with.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Megan,

That is great advice.

One of the reaons I am so serious about gentle parenting is because o the way my parents raised me. I wasn't spanked, but I was yelled at and belittled.

It really helps to keep the memory with you when you are working toward a gentle life with your own kids.

Another thing that helps me is to consider Kailey's feelings when it comes to how I react to her.

I've yelled before, but make efforts to change this reaction.

If I were to have read multiple posts by Ruth about her out of control behavior, hitting her babes repeatedly and consistantly, my posts her would be a different. But, thankfully, I know this is not a normal or common occurance.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It isn't projection. She said can't control her temper with her son, and that in this particular case she lost control and yelled at him and repeatedly hit him. She asked what she should do. We gave our opinions based on what we'd do if we had lost control with our kids and repeatedly hit them. I know what I would do - I'd go to a counselor to ask for help in controlling my rage. I have a couple of friends whom I greatly respect who have gone to counselors for that specific reason. I don't think less of them or their parenting for that - on the contrary I think it shows how caring and gentle they are that they don't gloss over it and they take care of the problem. I don't understand why you have such a negative opinion about going to a counselor when a mother has something she needs help with.


On the contrary, I find counseling to be very helpful when needed. My motto is if you don't have the skills then you need to acquire them. Counselors often have great suggestions and advice when it comes to learning new ways to deal with issues.

But, I don't consider this one of those occasions.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
I am kindly advising those who consider this a rage issue to take a step back and reflect on their motives for this. If this is an issue of projecting (which is a concern in and of itself) please refrain.

But it kind of is a rage issue. Not that Ruthla rages frequently but really once is enough. My mom was generally not a hitter but I remember distinctly a time when we were coming home from church (I was about 6) and all of a sudden she started screaming and hitting us. She was driving and she is as strong as a wet noodle so the hitting wasn't so hard but she did scare the cr** out of me. My brother and I were probably fighting in the backseat but I don't remember that, all I remember is my mom losing it on us. -Although she didn't hit, this was part of a verbal-rage pattern for her.

Maybe I am projecting but I do know that when someone _without the possibility of relief_ gets very irritable to the point where they start screaming and hitting, things can degenerate to where the parent is irritable as part of a pattern.

Ruthla, I also take Rescue Remedy and do some hardcore exercise when I get irritable. I also have DH take DD out for some me time. I know you are a single mama but do you have anyone who can take your DS for a few hours just so you can recharge? You need to refill yourself before you can be a good caretaker to your kids.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The very first time I lose control and hit my daughter will be the day I call someone for help. It will not have to be a repeated thing.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk* 
You need more than a "glass of wine" or to "take a hot bath" to deal with this. This is beyond being "drained". A great many people that post here are drained, all the time or much of the time, but they don't hit their kids, no matter how highly irritatingly the dc's are behaving and how drained the moms and dads are.
.

Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

But, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And, we all can't be as relaxed at gentle as people in glass houses now can we?


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The very first time I lose control and hit my daughter will be the day I call someone for help. It will not have to be a repeated thing.











Ruthla- you know where I stand.

Namaste,


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

yes, i think we all agree that spanking and yelling does occur with moms here. otherwise, this forum wouldn't exist....we wouldn't need it.

i am a recovering "yeller".


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't buy this at all. I don't buy that all or even most moms here lose control and hit their kids from time to time. Let's say it was the dad occasionally hitting the mom. Would we still be so understanding and saying the dad didn't need to get help controlling his temper?

It sounds like this mom has a particularly large amount of stress with a few kids and being a single mom, but that's an even better reason for her to find some help. She's dealing with more than most moms deal with, and therefore might be more likely to need help. And I read someone said she's religious - if so she very likely has resources available through her church.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
This just had me cracking up. I haven't had sex in at least a year..

Girl...you gotta get you some! Seriously I haven't read the whole thread but want to send you a hug. It is so hard to be a parent. I have ten year old twins that fight day and night about everything and at times I am so pulling my hair out. If I could get some really good sex I am sure that would help a lot but I am big as a cow right now and over the top with pregnancy hormones.

We all blow it sometimes, apologise and move on with a plan to react differently next time.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
And I read someone said she's religious - if so she very likely has resources available through her church.

Synagogue.

I just find it interesting that you are so confident you would call for help if you ever flipped. Do you have no fear of CPS? Would you be willing to risk getting CPS involved with your family because you lost your temper 1 time?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

No - you're right - to be honest I have no experience with CPS and that hadn't occurred to me. There isn't patient confidentiality? That would definitely impact what I would do.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't buy this at all. I don't buy that all or even most moms here lose control and hit their kids from time to time. Let's say it was the dad occasionally hitting the mom. Would we still be so understanding and saying the dad didn't need to get help controlling his temper?

It sounds like this mom has a particularly large amount of stress with a few kids and being a single mom, but that's an even better reason for her to find some help. She's dealing with more than most moms deal with, and therefore might be more likely to need help. And I read someone said she's religious - if so she very likely has resources available through her church.

i don't spank my children at all, but i have yelled in their faces, and afterward felt completely like the worst mom ever. i think screaming is so incredibly harmful to a child. i was yelled at growing up though....so when i had children, i reacted the same way i was taught. i would feel SO awful though, so like you suggested, i got help by reading books, finding this forum, confiding in friends, practicing through trial and error, etc. i have learned a better way to deal with it now, and my whole family has benefited from my change. my kids still act out of course, but the way i re-act is completely different. i don't know ruthla at all, but i have read many of her posts and i do believe she loves her children and wants to give them her best. like you posted earlier, she's not a bad mother, but she needs to find a better way to redirect her anger in that moment. i think there have been some good suggestions here for her. hopefully, we can all learn from each other's mistakes and help each other along the way. i know you just want help for ruthla and her children, and i think the other posters are saying the same thing. hopefully ruthla will return here soon....she's got a lot of catching up to do!!!


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
And, we all can't be as relaxed at gentle as people in glass houses now can we?









Since you quoted me I assume that was directed at me. That was uncalled for.

I haven't responded to any other posts because I've said all I have to say on the topic. I said nothing negative to or about Ruthla as a person or a parent and I don't understand why you are attacking me in this personal way.

Ruthla posted and I responded in a way that I felt would best help her _and her child_.

If I hit my child- even once..._especially_ once because there is always a first time- I would hope someone would say something similar to me, regardless of how well they knew me. If they were my close friend I would _expect them_ to call me on it.

I am not _against_ Ruthla; I am _for her getting help_. Period.

I'm only checking the thread to read Ruthla's post when she returns. I don't really understand what all the arguing is about. A person hits their child; therefore, they should get help of some sort. It's very simple, IMO







. But in her posts, Ruth didn't say anything about getting counseling or alleviating her situation and none of the other posters suggested it so I did. Ruthla hasn't responded yet and for all we know she agrees so you getting your ire up may be for nothing.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
No - you're right - to be honest I have no experience with CPS and that hadn't occurred to me. There isn't patient confidentiality? That would definitely impact what I would do.

From what I understand, if they feel the child was abused (as far as I know spanking lightly with the hand is not considered abuse in most states), they are required by law to report you. This is one of the best examples to me of why punishment is so often detrimental - the person who wants help may not feel they can get it.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

She is getting help, or at least attempted to get help by coming here, only to have the responses like yours thrown at her with no consideration as to what affect this mas have on her family. Think CPS.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
She is getting help, or at least attempted to get help by coming here, only to have the responses like yours thrown at her with no consideration as to what affect this mas have on her family. Think CPS.

I don't understand why you are taking my suggestion that she get help so personally. What's wrong with getting help? And I still don't undertsand why you attacked me. What have I done except try to help this poster and her DS?

Why do you think that the suggeston that she get help _isn't_ helpful to her? I felt I _was_ being helpful to her. I felt the suggestions that she drink some wine or take a hot bath fairly unhelpful and not very constructive, aside from the commiseration factor-which while very important doesn't do much to help her avoid the situation in the future. And what does CPS have to do with me? She's the one that posted, how can my response to her have anything to do with CPS? I'm really confused.


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

I am just assuming...but I am guessing there is no dp?
anyhow....everyone seems to be suggesting get some help....take a break....

sometimes YOU DON'T get a break.
sometimes....there is NO one to help.....sometimes....you come to the mamas at MDC and its all you have .....
please lets me kind.
ruthla, my gentle hugs to you.....pm me if you like....just to tell me you're ok.

just want to add.....I went to a woman to get "help ": once......she called cps on me.....so much for that...

when it comes to children and expressing even the thought of wanting to hurt them....in any way....or the frustration....of possibly hitting them....they are bound by law to report to cps. I then had a woman , unannounced , visit my home. All I said , in my only 2 weeks postpartum state was in response to her asking do i ever feel like hurting the baby....i said yes....
for that I was subjected to an hours worth of them coming into my home , checking my children....questioning my kids...and doing follow up
I felt violated and never ever got help from a professional again.
knowing this...I would understand why getting "professional " type help might not even be an option for some people....

.I understand where you're coming from mama.....if you ever need an ear....


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

April- I see that you are confused. I only mentioned you in a post once, yet you repeatedly wonder why I am attacking you?









By posts like yours I am referring to posts saying she should seek professional advice from a counselor and while I believe the information counselors may have to be helpful, I don't think it is warranted or wise for her to seek counseling.

CPS has nothing to do with you, why would you think that?

I said, "Think CPS." as the reason counseling isn't a good idea.

I didn't say you weren't trying to be helpful, just that you weren't helpful.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
April- I see that you are confused. I only mentioned you in a post once, yet you repeatedly wonder why I am attacking you?







.

Because I asked why you were attacking me you didn't answer me so I asked you again.

Quote:

CPS has nothing to do with you, why would you think that?
Because you posted this:

Quote:

She is getting help, or at least attempted to get help by coming here, only to have the responses like yours thrown at her with no consideration as to what affect this mas have on her family. Think CPS.
You responded to my post and mentioned CPS, so I asked what that had to do with me. Seems pretty clear.

This thread is getting more and more bizarre by the minute so I'm going to bow out of the discussion at this point.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 

I didn't say you weren't trying to be helpful, just that you weren't helpful.

What is helpful here at MDC is that there are a wide variety of opinions and responses. What the OP might find helpful, what lurkers might find helpful, and what you might be helpful aren't necessarily the same thing.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

I wonder if the OP will even feel comfortable posting in this thread again- what, with all the people who assume that they "know" her and her motivations well enough to post in her stead.

I hope that Ruthla and her family get whatever help they need, if any and in whatever form, to prevent this from ever happening again. I don't think a glass of wine is going to solve the problem (and she has, in fact, said so) but I don't think getting a free and clear pass (implying that it wasn't a big deal at all) is the answer either. That said, it isn't my place to speak for her with any suppositions.

This thread sure did become a p*ssing match between a few certain posters.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk* 
Treading softly? _She hit her 5 year old child, repeatedly_. This is not the time to tread softly, IMO. I hope OP agrees.

Many people suggested a glass of wine. This is not an appropriate response to this post, IMO, whether people were commiserating or not.

I think we can all agree that parenting is very hard but this is the time for emergency, drastic action on the part of Ruthla... but then I'm merely repeating myself at this point, no need to beat a dead horse.

I think you may be confusing the magnitude of the response with the effectiveness in implementing change. Not the same thing.

The goal is for Ruthla to understand and control her feelings and reactions better. Most likely, the necessary first step is for her to acknowlege and verbalize what is happening to a supportive, nonjudgemental audience. That's pretty much what she did and pretty much what her friends are trying to do here.

An excited, urgent response such as yours in NOT helpful at this stage. It causes the person to withdraw, seek to justify their actions, and shuts down further consideration and discussion of the issue.

If she should need to avail herself to outside help, that is a process of acceptance to which she'll need to evolve. Keeping the door open during the early stages of the process is critical. Treading softly is _exactly_ what's needed here.


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

Ruthla..I hope you will please feel that you have support here regardless of a few of the posts.







I am sorry you are going through this mama..


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I don't know if Ruth will respond here, but I doubt it.

So, thanks for pushing away a mama in need of friendship and understanding, that was *really* helpful.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 

If I were to have read multiple posts by Ruth about her out of control behavior, hitting her babes repeatedly and consistantly, my posts her would be a different. But, thankfully, I know this is not a normal or common occurance.

You are saying that others are projecting their feelings - well I think you are allowing your relationship with this poster to colour your advice. I know a lot of members who have been here for years (as have I) and I know they are great moms. If any one of them said they hit their 5 year old son repeatedly I would be very concerned.

Why does it matter if this isn't common for her? That does not change the fact that it happened, and the fact that it happened means she needs help. I am completely and utterly blown away by your attitude (potty diva). No one - not one person - has called Ruthla a bad parent. Nobody has said that this means she is a horrible person. What we are saying is that when a situation gets to the point where a parent is screaming at and beating on (sorry - but to me hitting repeatedly is beating) on their FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD - then yes that person needs to get some help. I honestly do not know what to say to the people that don't seem to consider this a big deal. I can damn well guarantee you that if I (not one of the "popular" people around here) came on and said that I flipped out at my son for pushing the buttons on the keyboard while my daughter was on it and that I HIT HIM REPEATEDLY you would all be saying, "GET HELP NOW!!!" I know that for a fact. It doesn't make one bit of difference WHO the parent is - if a parent has reached the point that they hit their child REPEATEDLY then THEY NEED HELP!!!


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

And Ruthla - I'm sorry your post turned into a debate. I do NOT in any way shape or form think you are a bad mother. Not one for one teeny tiny second. That thought NEVER crossed my mind. But I do think that you are on the edge and you need to talk to someone to get a grip on your anger. That is not something to be ashamed of in the slightest. Like I said in a previous post I completely flipped out on my son once - sounds similar to the situation you described - and I DID get help. I went to counselling to work through some of these issues. Am I perfect parent now? No and I never will be. I will always have anger issues because of my upbringing. But I do have the tools now and the strength to fight those feelings and I do not hit my kids anymore. I am proud of that and if you take the first step towards getting help I know you will be proud of yourself too. And you will be able to look your son in the eye and tell him that you were wrong and that you are getting help because he is the most important thing in the world to you.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

But, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And, we all can't be as relaxed at gentle as people in glass houses now can we?

I have posted MANY times about my struggles with spanking and yelling at my kids. Many times. And I had MANY people tell me in no uncertain terms to get help. And thank God I did.


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 

So, thanks for pushing away a mama in need of friendship and understanding, that was *really* helpful.

I agree. I think this fact is the reason why so many dont come forward. I completely agree with treading gently. This IS a gentle parenting community no?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey Ruthla,

I'm someone who has lost it, too. There have been times when our finances were so incredibly tight and dh was working seven days a week and I've just found myself going from 0 to out of control in 2.2 seconds. It's so tough. I knew I needed a break, but couldn't figure out how to get one, especially when ds2 was a brand-new babe.

Locking myself in the bathroom and washing my face with cold water helped, videos/DVDs helped, chocolate helped.

And I tried to imagine a "nanny-cam" watching me, or my children as adults looking back at me, or all of my friends sitting in an audience evaluating my parenting. That would sometimes help.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
From what I understand, if they feel the child was abused (as far as I know spanking lightly with the hand is not considered abuse in most states), they are required by law to report you. This is one of the best examples to me of why punishment is so often detrimental - the person who wants help may not feel they can get it.

Where did Ruthla say she spanked lightly with her hand? It sounds to me like she was waling on him. She said she hit him repeatedly.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Shawna- you may have felt comfortable talking about it, but you, my dear are in the minority here.

She doesn't hit her son REPEATEDLY. She had ONE occasion where she felt stressed out and hit him repeatedly in one instance. It was wrong, we all know this, hitting is wrong, we all believe it. Now give it a rest and let this mama be.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Shawna- here is another thought for you.

Who is going to pay for this counseling? You?

It is a reason for me to dislike this suggestion. It's assumed that we can all afford such a thing and I know right now paying for counseling is not an option for Ruth.

Chew on that for a bit.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Potty Diva - you don't know anything about me or my situation. Let's see when I sought help we were living on $30000 a year and almost bankrupt. Now we are living in my DH's parents basement so we can pay off debt and he has gone back to school so our only income is student funding. Don't for one second assume that I don't know financial hardship. There are free resources - churches are a great choice. I see you said she is Jewish so I'm sure a synagogue would have free counselling options. And if from talking to someone at her synagogue she gets reported to CPS then I think she needs to seek a different church. I don't know any church that would do that. There are definately free resources. And I did not say she has hit her son repeatedly as in many times over a period of time - when I said repeatedly I meant the one incident and I stand by my opinion that losing it to that magnitude means that a person needs some help.


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

hi ruthla...if you're reading this...i'm sorry you're having a hard time....I know what its like to be where you are....even though i don't know you personally.
I hope my loving thoughts will come through to you....loving gentle thoughts.....


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## mothertoall (Dec 30, 2005)

by the way....my first thought when I see the threads others have spoken of...or see a mom or dad at a store lose it with their kid...you know what it is?
not " they need counseling..." or call cps.....its "dang.....they could sure use a friend to help them through what must really be a tough time...."
you can almost tell the ones that are just freaking out because the day has been long...or life sucks right now.....and the ones who regularly do that type of thing just to have someone to beat on..........(i'm sure i will get flamed now....







)


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Potty Diva - you don't know anything about me or my situation. Let's see when I sought help we were living on $30000 a year and almost bankrupt. Now we are living in my DH's parents basement so we can pay off debt and he has gone back to school so our only income is student funding. Don't for one second assume that I don't know financial hardship. There are free resources - churches are a great choice. I see you said she is Jewish so I'm sure a synagogue would have free counselling options. And if from talking to someone at her synagogue she gets reported to CPS then I think she needs to seek a different church. I don't know any church that would do that. There are definately free resources. And I did not say she has hit her son repeatedly as in many times over a period of time - when I said repeatedly I meant the one incident and I stand by my opinion that losing it to that magnitude means that a person needs some help.

Don't pretend to know what someone else's finances can afford them, ok?

And PLEASE stop calling her shul a church- talk about insulting (and not because other religions who use churches are less than, but because it is NOT the same).

Who says her shul offers these services?

I'm actually going to unsub as this discussion helps no one, specifically not Ruth.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I wanted to add the Ruth does not come online Friday-Saturday for Shabbot observance.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothertoall* 
by the way....my first thought when I see the threads others have spoken of...or see a mom or dad at a store lose it with their kid...you know what it is?
not " they need counseling..." or call cps.....its "dang.....they could sure use a friend to help them through what must really be a tough time...."
you can almost tell the ones that are just freaking out because the day has been long...or life sucks right now.....and the ones who regularly do that type of thing just to have someone to beat on..........(i'm sure i will get flamed now....







)

I understand completely what you are saying. The only point on which we disagree is that I think that life has gotten that hard that it has escalated to this that it wouldn't hurt to just sit down talk with someone. Someone to help you with accountability and some coping mechanisms. There is no shame in needing help - none at all.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Oh get off your high horse! I did not call her shul a church. I was talking about MY church.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:

CPS then I think she needs to seek a different church
I'm not the one on the moral high horse.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

OMG so I accidentally said church. You know what I meant. You are just nitpicking. I'm not on a moral high horse - I'm just as much of a screw up as the next person.


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## christyc (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail* 
I've also started reading "Mother Nurture" by Rick Hanson et al. On page 81 (in the section on self-forgiveness) they outline it like this:

(please don't get scared away by the word 'incompetence' - it just means we all recognize that our overreactions are inappropriate)

"Stage 1: Unconcious Incompetence: You're not aware of the problem

Stage 2: Conscious Incompetence: You realize you shouldn't be doing it, but
you can't stop yourself. This is by far the most unconfortable stage.

Stage 3: Conscious Competence: The inclination to snap harshly still arises within your mind, but you catch it and do something different, like take a deep breath and speak more calmly.

Stage 4: Unconscious Competence: The tendency doesn't even arise. Sometimes it's even hard to remember that you used to act in a different way"

Oh wow, this is good stuff for me! I need to get that book. I think I'm stuck in stage 2 right now, trying to get to stage 3.

Secondly, I have read this forum from time to time, but never post for support because I've always been paranoid of being judged by other moms as I'm on my way to becoming the parent I want to be. I am a former spanking mom who is now working on cutting out the yelling parts, too, and REALLY wish I had some folks I could check in with regularly, kind of like an online AA kind of thing for mamas who want to have regular support for gentle discipline, particularly when it doesn't come naturally. But I've been scared to post here because of fearing the judgmental reactions from other moms who may not understand (particularly from those who have only young children, or only one child, and have never been in the shoes of those of us who only in the past few years came around to GD after doing something else for a while).

I started this response after reading the first page of responses. I was inspired by Ruthla's honesty and courage in posting, and BLOWN AWAY by the kindness and encouragement Ruthla received-- that is exactly what I would need in moments I feel I've failed to get me back on the right track. But in the middle of writing this reply, I clicked to read the rest of the responses, and was horrified at how judgmental people are. Adding smilies and saying, "I'm not judging you, BUT" do not make it any less hurtful or judgmental. And responses like that are the reason that mothers like me, who struggle daily to go against the grain of everything I've ever experienced from my own parents, will not post here seeking support. Ever.

Ruthla-- you are not alone it wanting to be more, do more, and grow as a person for your children. We do not all have similar backgrounds and experiences, so none of us here can ever fully understand or offer sound advice to another, but know that there are some of us here who, while we don't condone or encourage what you have done, know what it feels like to fall short and try harder.


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## christyc (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Yes, and one of the best ways to prevent a person from getting help is to make them feel that they aren't safe in sharing.









:


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## christyc (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

But, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

wow, this thread is really out of sorts. indaphunk, your advice is very welcome at MDC, as is everyone's. even if it doesn't speak directly to ruthla, it will benefit someone. this whole thread is a little silly to insinuate that everyone at MDC is so kind and non-judgmental....come on, please. i'm on here everyday and i read these threads, and most of the time people feel free to speak their mind as they see fit. most of us are passionate about our beliefs and our practice in gentle discipline, and we constantly express our outrage at the thought of a child being hurt.

this is a message board, and advice can only be given based upon the information a poster shares. the original poster said she repeatedly hit and yelled at her son, and the title of this thread is "what the %$#% is wrong with me?" i think indaphunk & others are getting short-changed in their advice. maybe they haven't read ruthla's 20,000,000 posts and are speaking directly to THIS one. you should welcome advice that speaks up against hitting a child. i think it is awesome that everyone is coming to ruthla's aid, as good friends should do that. but you are only being non-judgmental to ruthla, and you are being quite judgmental and aggressive to posters who share different opinions. i could go on, but i won't. i'm just baffled at this thread's reaction, but if it had been ruthla posting about her SIL and saying the same situation occurred....everyone would be singing a different tune probably, and more people would be defending this 5 year old.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *christyc* 
Oh wow, this is good stuff for me! I need to get that book. I think I'm stuck in stage 2 right now, trying to get to stage 3.

Secondly, I have read this forum from time to time, but never post for support because I've always been paranoid of being judged by other moms as I'm on my way to becoming the parent I want to be. I am a former spanking mom who is now working on cutting out the yelling parts, too, and REALLY wish I had some folks I could check in with regularly, kind of like an online AA kind of thing for mamas who want to have regular support for gentle discipline, particularly when it doesn't come naturally. But I've been scared to post here because of fearing the judgmental reactions from other moms who may not understand (particularly from those who have only young children, or only one child, and have never been in the shoes of those of us who only in the past few years came around to GD after doing something else for a while).

I started this response after reading the first page of responses. I was inspired by Ruthla's honesty and courage in posting, and BLOWN AWAY by the kindness and encouragement Ruthla received-- that is exactly what I would need in moments I feel I've failed to get me back on the right track. But in the middle of writing this reply, I clicked to read the rest of the responses, and was horrified at how judgmental people are. Adding smilies and saying, "I'm not judging you, BUT" do not make it any less hurtful or judgmental. And responses like that are the reason that mothers like me, who struggle daily to go against the grain of everything I've ever experienced from my own parents, will not post here seeking support. Ever.

Ruthla-- you are not alone it wanting to be more, do more, and grow as a person for your children. We do not all have similar backgrounds and experiences, so none of us here can ever fully understand or offer sound advice to another, but know that there are some of us here who, while we don't condone or encourage what you have done, know what it feels like to fall short and try harder.

I don't understand how it is considered wrong or rude for a person to say "I've been there, I've done exactly the same thing, this is what I did and I don't think it would be a bad idea to do the same." How is that rude? How is that condescending? How is that wrong? I have been in the same boat (losing it on my kids) and I know the damage it did to them. My son still talks about the one incident now and its been over 2 years! And he thanked me for changing for him. He thanked me that he doesn't have to worry about me hitting him ever again because I have kept my promise not to and I sought help. Saying a person needs to talk to someone is not an insult and I don't see how it can be seen as one. It would be wrong and rude to that little boy involved in this situation to just say "Have a glass of wine and talk a breather." From the really in-depth discussions I've had with my son since this incident and since he is no longer afraid to tell me bluntly how he feels I know that it affected him so, so deeply. And I apologized over and over again and cried with him. Ruthla has said she couldn't even force herself to stay for the length of snuggles he wanted.







: I am just so confused by this thread.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
OMG so I accidentally said church. You know what I meant. You are just nitpicking. I'm not on a moral high horse - I'm just as much of a screw up as the next person.


Wow, why would you think this of yourself?

I highly doubt you are a screw up.

Just as I know I am not a screw up, even though I make mistakes in parenting. What I am, is human.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

It was said tongue in cheek. I meant that I make mistakes and have never claimed to be perfect. I notice you are only responding to little nitpicky things in my posts, why is that?


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

So you haven't read my posts that address the main issues in them?

Why do you think I am being nitpicky? It's not my intention.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
From what I understand, if they feel the child was abused (as far as I know spanking lightly with the hand is not considered abuse in most states), they are required by law to report you. This is one of the best examples to me of why punishment is so often detrimental - the person who wants help may not feel they can get it.

I just wanted to add although I'm not sure what is U.S. law, I do now know that in Ontario, Canada, this is exactly the case. I think the OP is very brave for honestly posting and asking for help. To make a long story short, I'm very burnt out from dealing with my 4 year old - an explosive boy who has been stressing me out since he was born. I am at my wit's end trying to deal with him and have sought out, repeatedly, help for him and for the rest of the family (DH, DS#2 is 12 months old). Finally, he is getting some mental health assessments by specialists and a child&youth worker is starting to work with us TOMORROW. The first thing this worker told me is that IF I told him (the worker) or he noticed any evidence of abuse (and he defined that to me as spanking or my child listening to my husband and I have a loud, verbal argument), he'd have to report us. I was sick because, yes, my DH and I both have anger issues and yes we have argued in front of our child. Not a lot but more than once. I know it's not right to argue or "lose it" in front of my child but we try so hard every day and night to be the best parents we can. I felt sick when I realized a professional would report me for yelling with DH! The thing is ... as 2bluefish said - I'm asking for help - our family wants help - and he is basically telling us not to be honest and tell him we've had arguments in front of our son. I told my girlfriend this and she said it seemed ridiculous because obviously if we had no issues, we'd not be asking for help. And the people that are in desperate chronic abusive states - what will they do? Certainly not invite mental health workers into their homes. Anyway, I am looking forward to getting some parenting strategies and some assistance but it's been an eye opener to realize the issues at stake when someone decides to "get help". It's not as straightforward as one would think. And the thing is too, I grew up with parents who yelled, had fights, lost it occasionally and I love my parents more than anything else. My brother and I both love our parents and we're all very close. Not sure what I'm getting at but I think at some level we're all imperfect humans trying to love each other and raise good people. I think seeking help is important but I wanted to point out it isn't quite as simple as it seems.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

You know, when you post a thread on internet forums asking for opinions and advice, you tend to get opinions and advice. Not everyone is going to be in agreement about what the advice _should_ be. The OP is free to take what she thinks is helpful and leave the rest.

It's a little obnoxious that someone who is not even the OP believes that they can dictate what sort of advice/opinions the OP should or should not receive. I sure hope none of my friends feels so free to filter things for me.

I'm sure the OP knows where she posted and was prepared for the sorts of replies that she got. She's a long-time poster. She appears, by all other evidence, to be a really great mom. Nobody here has disputed that. Nobody that I have noticed has called her a bad mother. Many people have suggested that she get some help, many in the form of just some time away from her kids. I don't see a thing wrong with that suggestion. Even the suggestion of professional help is just a suggestion. Nobody is going to drag her off to therapy.

And you know, she wouldn't even have to mention that she actually hit her child to anyone, if CPS is a big fear. (Though, between what is accepted corporal punishment in most states and doctor/patient confidentiality, I doubt it is too much of a worry.) She could easily just talk about how she has been feeling stressed-out and having difficulty with feeling angry over somewhat minor things. I am sure she would still get excellent and helpful tools to get through those moments.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

But, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And, we all can't be as relaxed at gentle as people in glass houses now can we?

a big







:


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish*
From what I understand, if they feel the child was abused (as far as I know spanking lightly with the hand is not considered abuse in most states), they are required by law to report you.

Where did Ruthla say she spanked lightly with her hand? It sounds to me like she was waling on him. She said she hit him repeatedly.

You took my post out of context. I made no comment interpreting what Ruthla did. I was explaining that if you go to someone for counseling and admit to something that could be interpreted as abuse *the counselor* is required by law to report you to CPS. (To my understanding in the states spanking with the hand without damaging the body is legal?) That really makes a difference in how someone is supposed to go about getting help.

Thank you Tuesday for telling your story - I think that helps clarify as well!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

For those of us who know Ruth, we know that this behavior is not at all typical for her, and that she is struggling with multiple health issues and is sometimes in a lot of pain. You add to that squabbling siblings, being tired, not having any child-free time, and a child who is going through a hard stage, and it's set up to not turn out well.

I'm so sorry that happened, Ruth. You've got to get some time without kiddos - can you institute a bedtime for your DDs so that you get some? They are old enough to understand that you are not feeling so well and need some time on your own. Even if bedtime for them means being in another room with the door closed.

Do you have anyone who could do some babysitting for you? I wish we could help you more!

Sending you a PM,








Pikku


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

an OT post for knitting


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## Eaglevoice (Nov 30, 2004)

I think people on this thread need to stop reacting to each other so much and just focus on the main purpose...helping Ruthla. Wether we offer her words of encouragement and understanding, or constructive criticism... let's just leave it at that and stop the back and forth nitpicking.







Ruthla


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## Eaglevoice (Nov 30, 2004)

I think it's really harding growing up in our society to go against the norm and discipline gently. So many of us grew up in houses where yelling and occasional swats where common occurances. I know my parents yelled all the time, and I remember a time when my mom chased me halfway up the stairs trying to swat my bum. It's hard to always be gentle with my children being brought up in such a manner. I've caught myself yelling and acting in ways that I know are not the "gentle discipline" that I am striving for. That's why I come to this forum. I look for advice from other mama's that have struggled. I want to see what has worked for them, how did they over come the urge to scream when they've just had enough?? I think we all strive to be the perfect AP mama...but it's just so hard, especially when you're faced with tough family situations, such as single parenting. I do think that we should "tread lightly" when a mama comes forth with an issue such as this. We need to tread lightly because this mama is being brave for asking for help and seeking advice. She obviously is in need of sisterhood right now. It is important that we be honest with her, yes, but not in such a way that would make her and other mama's on the board afraid to ever post in the GD forum with problems and frustrations of their own. Be gentle, for obviously this mama (and so many other mamas here) is fragile at the moment.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eaglevoice* 
I think it's really harding growing up in our society to go against the norm and discipline gently. So many of us grew up in houses where yelling and occasional swats where common occurances. I know my parents yelled all the time, and I remember a time when my mom chased me halfway up the stairs trying to swat my bum. It's hard to always be gentle with my children being brought up in such a manner. I've caught myself yelling and acting in ways that I know are not the "gentle discipline" that I am striving for. That's why I come to this forum. I look for advice from other mama's that have struggled. I want to see what has worked for them, how did they over come the urge to scream when they've just had enough?? I think we all strive to be the perfect AP mama...but it's just so hard, especially when you're faced with tough family situations, such as single parenting. I do think that we should "tread lightly" when a mama comes forth with an issue such as this. We need to tread lightly because this mama is being brave for asking for help and seeking advice. She obviously is in need of sisterhood right now. It is important that we be honest with her, yes, but not in such a way that would make her and other mama's on the board afraid to ever post in the GD forum with problems and frustrations of their own. Be gentle, for obviously this mama (and so many other mamas here) is fragile at the moment.


Yes.. this is what I meant earlier about threading lightly. ITA w/what you said.

Shay


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
For those of us who know Ruth, we know that this behavior is not at all typical for her,

I wanted to make sure that I was not totally misjudging the situation so I did a search for the OP's posts on this forum. She has had problems with hitting and yelling at this child since 2005. I do not post that to judge her just to say this is NOT an isolated incident and the anger seems to be escalating. Like I said - I understand. You could go back and search for my posts in this forum too and see how many times I've messed up and spanked or yelled at my children. We all make mistakes and I am not judging her. I just think she needs to be honest with herself and for her son's sake she needs to seek help.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Counseling really doesn't solve those issues and in turn it adds one more thing to the list that needs to be done.

That's been my exact experience with counseling in the past. It's not an issue of paying for the counseling itself (Medicaid will cover it) but there's the time and energy of getting there, transportation costs to and from counseling, stress from arranging childcare while I go... to have the counselor tell me to pace myself, respect my limits, establish routines- when I had to push myself out the door, ignore my limits, and mess up the day's routine to get to counseling in the first place.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
No - you're right - to be honest I have no experience with CPS and that hadn't occurred to me. There isn't patient confidentiality? That would definitely impact what I would do.

Nope, there isnt' patient confidentiality when they suspect somebody's getting hurt. Once, when DS was about a year and a half old, I took him with me to my counseling sessions because I had no childcare and the counselor assured me it wouldn't be a problem. Well, she called CPS because DS had a bruise on his face- from a normal, "clumsy toddler" accident. He'd fallen down and bumped his face on something while my Mom was watching him.

So, no, I wouldn't feel comfortable really opening up to a counselor about parenting issues- especially with a counselor who's completely unfamiliar with AP or GD- the last thing I need when I'm overwhelmed is to start defending co-sleeping or unschooling. I had a counselor try to talk me out of keeping DD2 on the Feingold Program because it was "causing me too much stress" and she thought it would be much easier on everybody to put DD on medication instead.

I have absolutely no desire to stress myself out getting to see somebody who's values probably don't match my own, and who's likely to push medication for one or more family members, even if my insurance will pay for it.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Oh, I was so busy being defensive in the last post that I forgot to post an update.

On Friday nights and Saturdays I don't post because it's Shabbat. I wasn't able to get online Saturday night after Shabbat this week. Sunday we spent the day visiting DD1 at camp- it took us 2.5 hours to drive there, we visited for over 6 hours, and then it took us 4 hours to drive back due to the traffic. We were gone over 13 hours, and I didn't get to MDC at all yesterday either.

Whoa, this thread exploded in my abscence!!

I wonder if my post would have sounded less violent if I'd posted about "swatting", "spanking" or "popping him one." No, I called a spade a spade and said I hit him, which is exactly what happened. I didn't leave any marks, and my outburst only lasted a few minutes. Yes, I still felt angry after it was over, because I managed to stop myself before I "released all my vent up frustration" on him. Nor were any of the underlying problems addressed at that point. Plus I felt like absolute chit for having lost my temper.

Then I got him to bed, told DD that I was in no mood to interact with her, and curled up on the couch with a book for several hours. The next few days I've been doing the same- letting DD know that I expect and need her help with chores, and being firmer with DS when he's being annoying, before I get fully angry.

The last time DS got into DD's space, pushing buttons on her computer, I stayed out of it. I tried to redirect him by letting him use my computer (here, sign onto my AIM account and IM her annoying messages without actually touching her and getting into her personal space.) I didn't physically intervene until he threw a hard toy at DD, at which point I scooped him up with a big hug and took him away from her, firmly explaining that throwing hard toys can really hurt somebody and that's not allowed. Had he thrown a soft toy, I would have continued to let DD handle it on her own.

Coming to MDC *IS* helping me put things into perspective and react more calmly.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

to you Ruthla.

I have two things I want to comment on:

First, I have found that not expressing anger when it is called for, feeling like I need to be *too* GD to the point of not setting firm boundaries or doing any parent imposed consequences, and always having to be 'happy happy joy joy' in dealing with my child, even when her behaviour is outrageous, has caused me to feel helpless in dealing with my child. From that helplessness, and from the repressed unexpressed anger, comes rage, for me.

When you speak about having not intervened in situations previously, and then in intervening you don't express anger or tell your son outright that his behaviour is not acceptable (ie. scooping him up in a hug when he is being a little sh!t), that reminds me of how I used to think I have to deal with my daughter.

I switched it up a little bit, got a little firmer and more direct, and things improved dramatically.

I think as women we get taught that our anger is not okay, that we must not express it, and so it comes out sideways, passive aggressively, or it builds inside us until it explodes in uncontrolled rage, or rage completely out of proportion to the situation.

Secondly, I have found therapy to be extremely important to me in my parenting journey. It is all in the therapist. You have to find a good one, like a really good one. Seasoned, and a *real* person, with real wisdom, not just someone who can regurgitate what they learned from a textbook.

If you do therapy with such a person, they can take you way beyond "respect your limits, get into a routine" type of advice. ITA that this type of advice would be beyond useless, since you already know it and you are making room in a tight, busy schedule to do therapy.

A decent therapist can help you explore your anger, figure out where it is coming from (is it directly about your ds, what in his behaviour triggers other stuff for you, what is going on for you to cause such an intense response, etc). Often stuff from our childhoods directly affects how we interact with our children, and a good therapist can help dig this stuff out and examine it.

Also, if you find a good therapist, they 'get it' about how stupid the CPS reporting laws can be, and over time may be willing to work on direct situations in the hypothetical. You can also talk about anger etc without disclosing anything they may be required to act upon, and a good therapist will work with you to create a situation where you get to figure out your stuff but they do not get placed in a situation where they are mandated to report.

Good luck Ruthla!!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I am very intrigued with Internal Family Systems Theory at the present moment. My daughter's father is a therapist and has gotten really involved with it, and I've done some reading and some work with it myself and am finding it really, really rich.

http://www.selfleadership.org/

I would say that if you could find a therapist who works within this model, this is one type of therapy that would be guaranteed to take you far beyond "get a routine" type of advice. There is probably a listing on the site, and people work by phone if there is nobody in your area.

Finding a model of therapy that speaks to you would be a really good way to look for a therapist who will be helpful in a deep way.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Wait, there's actually debate on whether a person should be addressed kindly and with respect even when they've made a mistake? This is exactly the sort of stuff that keeps people from seeking help. It's amazing that just explaining just what events and feelings lead to this situation is considered "justifying". 'Cause, you know, it's much more useful to just villanise someone rather than try to figure out what the triggers were so that they could be avoided.

As far as I'm aware, Ruthla has many friends in this community. If you can't go to friends for help, who can you go to? It boggles my mind that in a thread where the OP is asking for help, someone posts "get help". That makes just about as much sense as seeing someone being mugged, going "you better call the police, mate" and walking away. I'm not religious but really, people, be the good Samaritan for a change. Be the help, don't just sit and judge. And if you can't provide help, for goodness' sake, stay out of it. That's something I'm slowly but surely learning here.

Ruthla, I've behaved violently myself. I'm not comfortable going into a whole lot of detail here for a multitude of reasons, but if you want to talk, just PM me. I don't have kids yet, so I don't know if I can be of much help that way, but I do know what stress can do to a person.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anubis* 
Wait, there's actually debate on whether a person should be addressed kindly and with respect even when they've made a mistake? This is exactly the sort of stuff that keeps people from seeking help. It's amazing that just explaining just what events and feelings lead to this situation is considered "justifying". 'Cause, you know, it's much more useful to just villanise someone rather than try to figure out what the triggers were so that they could be avoided.

As far as I'm aware, Ruthla has many friends in this community. If you can't go to friends for help, who can you go to? It boggles my mind that in a thread where the OP is asking for help, someone posts "get help". That makes just about as much sense as seeing someone being mugged, going "you better call the police, mate" and walking away. I'm not religious but really, people, be the good Samaritan for a change. Be the help, don't just sit and judge. And if you can't provide help, for goodness' sake, stay out of it. That's something I'm slowly but surely learning here.

Ruthla, I've behaved violently myself. I'm not comfortable going into a whole lot of detail here for a multitude of reasons, but if you want to talk, just PM me. I don't have kids yet, so I don't know if I can be of much help that way, but I do know what stress can do to a person.

i don't recall any posts where someone was unkind or disrespectful to ruthla. people were downright rude to each other, i agree. but no one posted an original message to ruthla that was unkind or disrespectful imo.

as for posters who suggested she get help, why is that so terrible? ruthla is a long time member, and she has over 20,000 posts. we all come to this forum for support and guidance, but there is nothing wrong with seeking help when you are overloaded & MDC forums obviously aren't enough to help you maintain balance in your personal life. i don't think posters were out of line to say seeking help beyond this message board could be beneficial.

i think this whole thread has gotten out of sorts. i don't think anyone meant to attack ruthla, ....and ruthla, i hope you can see through all of this chaos that no one meant you harm. i hope you will continue to come here to get the support you need, and that you continue to feel free to vent.

each post opens you up for lots of advice -- good and bad. but i suppose you have been exposed to that in many threads already with your history here. just take what is useful and ignore what is not (which it seems like you do that already







)

plus, even if a post is not beneficial to the original poster, it may in fact be very beneficial to other moms reading here....so i think we should all continue to respect each other and acknowledge that having advice that is not uniformed is perfectly expected here.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Oh, I wasn't hurt by anything said on this message. I didn't even read it until AFTER getting an email full of cyber hugs telling me not to take this thread too personally. So I didn't read most of this thread until I had time to deal with it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This isn't a playgroup, and the OP is perfectly capable of reading through the responses and figuring out which ones are relevant to her situation. We don't need a bunch of self-proclaimed MDC censors deciding what advice can and can't be given out. No one called the OP a bad mother. I didn't see any mean or hostile posts to her. I hope if anyone did see something that was attacking the OP they would have hit the alert button so it could be deleted by the moderators.

Saying she needs to consider outside help means it might be something that's more than a mom can handle by herself or just by talking through. That isn't mean or bad. If I were a single mom of three (did I get that right?) I'd have much more trouble than I have as a married SAHM of one, and I might very well be in a position where I had to seek help elsewhere. I can't imagine that I'd be offended by that. Although the potential of CPS certainly throws a wrench in it. That certainly wouldn't help her kids. I come out of this thread being sad that a mother can have a very understandable amount of trouble and not have counseling options available without having to worry about her kids ending up in foster care.


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## christyc (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I come out of this thread being sad that a mother can have a very understandable amount of trouble and not have counseling options available without having to worry about her kids ending up in foster care.









:

God bless social workers and CPS for the good work that they do, but you always worry about what one overzealous, uninformed government worker could do that could forever damage your family and your children. Especially considering some of the horror stories coming from our foster care system right now. I know many foster parents are WONDERFUL people, but not all are, KWIM?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Mama,

It sounds like you need some self-care and self-empathy for all that you are juggling. There is an old thread "Parenting and Rage" which has a lot of suggestions on taking care of yourself, so as to be emotionally centered for your children. The first step is observing your triggers and recognizing these as indication of your priorities and values. Learning to honor and address these needs proactively helps, ime. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=394579

Pat


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

I thought you were very brave posting this because I agree, there are probably others here that have these moments and we just don't hear bout them because they're not quite courageous enough to post about it.

I can understand how you're feeling and I hope you're able to find a solution quickly.


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## mamabear&babybear (Dec 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail* 







for you, I have been in this position more times than I'd like to admit. And I've read Unconditional Parenting. And I bought Siblings without Rivalry and read most of it too. I've also started reading "Mother Nurture" by Rick Hanson et al. On page 81 (in the section on self-forgiveness) they outline it like this:

(please don't get scared away by the word 'incompetence' - it just means we all recognize that our overreactions are inappropriate)

"Stage 1: Unconcious Incompetence: You're not aware of the problem

Stage 2: Conscious Incompetence: You realize you shouldn't be doing it, but
you can't stop yourself. This is by far the most unconfortable stage.

Stage 3: Conscious Competence: The inclination to snap harshly still arises within your mind, but you catch it and do something different, like take a deep breath and speak more calmly.

Stage 4: Unconscious Competence: The tendency doesn't even arise. Sometimes it's even hard to remember that you used to act in a different way"

I'm guessing you're stuck at #2, trying to get to #3. That's about where I am. Things I am trying to remember to do are like couting in my head or deep breathing, or stepping back to view the situation from a distance. Once I pretended my kids were actually someone's kids on mdc, and I was reading a thread about the behaviour rather than seeing it firsthand from my own kids. I was much nicer in my response. I've also done some meditating and have discovered some interesting things about myself and why I react.
It's hard to remember to stop before reacting. I've actually got a reward chart for myself, of sorts. It's just a tally sheet to count the number of positive interactions I foster with my kids. Being nice to my kids in intrinsically motivating, but keeping track of it has helped me stop and think before acting.

hth!

If I were posting something similiar to the OP this would be exactly what I would be hoping for in the responses. I have hit J 3 times and all 3 times happened before she turned 1 years old. I remember all 3 incidences and they still haunt me. However, had I come on here and read that I should seek counseling I would have tuned out. I don't know why but just the thought of counseling shuts me off. Anyway, I did find help ... here. I haven't hit her for over 2 years now and it wasn't due to counselling. Not that counselling is bad advice; it just wouldn't work for me. I do think that attacking each other is counterproductive. If you see something inappropriate that's what the moderators are for. Our main concern should be providing support.

Ruthla, you are in my thoughts, and I sincerely hope that you find the answers you need.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I struggled to read through the first page, and got to the end and realized there were 7 pages of replies.







: I can't read them all, but here are some idea's...

1) Sounds like you need some you-time. I gather that you're a single mom, so that's a bit harder. A few things to take advantage of: your dd's are older which means you could arrange a sleepover weekend exchange with some of their friend's parents. That would leave you with only your DS to take care of, and then you could hire a babysitter or catch some quiet time after he's asleep.

2) Your original post said you felt that you had to intervene when a 5 year old was being violent with a 12 year old. Why not teach the 12 year old how to handle him, situation by situation. Teach her how to re-direct him. Teach her that if she takes 5-10 minutes to play computer WITH him, he'll tire of it and leave her alone when she's on there. There are tons of games for his age, email me if you want me to send you some links.

3) Get a timer and offer up some sort of reward to your dd's to keep ds busy until the timer goes off. Set the timer to 10 minutes at first, and gradually increase it until you can turn DS over to them for a half hour here and there.

4) Always use Mapquest or Google Maps before going anywhere you've never been before.







(I'm sorry you missed your appointment...I know how stressful that can be)

5) **This is most important** take on more kids.







: Seriously. It sounds as though DD1 is self-entertaining, but DD2 and DS have a harder time without your attention. Invite their friends over. I can't tell you how much of a salvation it was to move to a place where there's a little girl down the hall who's my ds's age. She comes over and they play in his room so I can work and then he has someone else to chatter to. The only downfall when they first started hanging out, was the incredible mess two little people somehow manage to make. But I made them clean it up themselves (her mother was on the same page and they were made to clean their mess when he was over there too), and they've learned not to just dump everything on the floor now. I get some very solid uninterrupted time, it's wonderful.

Good luck finding your goove.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

DD1 is "self entertaining" because she's at sleepaway camp right now!









My kids do spend a lot of time with their friends- the problem we had the other day was in the evening after DD's friends went home and DS came in from playing outside with the neighbors.

Things really are better now than they were a few days ago. Physically, I don't feel well- I have Fibromyalgia and I'm currently in a flare, but mentally I'm in a much better place.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
She is getting help, or at least attempted to get help by coming here, only to have the responses like yours thrown at her with no consideration as to what affect this mas have on her family. Think CPS.

I'm sorry, I have to chime in here. I haven't seen this thread in awhile and am shocked at the turn it has taken. Gently suggesting that someone seek counseling is not a bad thing...I'm a therapist and I get therapy and honestly, I think most people would benefit tremendously from it. Coming to an online bullentin board is NOT the same thing or remotely close. Therapy with a good therapist is a healing relationship that can work wonders in people's lives. There are plenty of places to receive free therapy...I provided therapy for organizations during my internship and beyond that provide it free to the community.

I think it is a loving suggestion and I really hate the fact that getting therapy in still so stigmatized in this society...it is the profound work of our lives and we are all entitled to it, IMO. (Obvioulsy that isn't the case because our healthcare system is pathetic, but I do believe that therapy would help 99.99% of the population).

It sounds to me like the OP could use support...and therapy can be that and much, much more.

Oh, and CPS wouldn't touch this one. These kids aren't being abused from the OP's story. It kinds of annoys me that folks think that CPS is all about snatching children out of their homes. Most CPS agencies are very interested in family preservation. I've had loads of friends working for CPS and kids are taken out of homes when it is dangerous for them to stay.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Swamp- Not once did i say therapy is a bad thing, and I agree it can be a very healing relationship. My mother has had a therapist for some years now and it has done wonders for her self esteem and overall image of herself. She has become a strong and independant woman in part thanks to her therapist. So who is stigmatizing therapy?

What I have been saying is that I don't believe this situation warrants the cost and added stress of therapy for Ruth.

As for CPS "snatching children" I too have acquiantances who are social and intake workers who admit that taking children is a common occurance at our county's office.

And what is deemed dangerous is all in the eyes of the caseworker. There are workers who strongly feel breastfeeding past infancy, co-sleeping, and a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle are dangerous and warrant removal of children.

So yes, to paint CPS with a broad brush, they pay lipservice to "keeping the family intact" but in reality keeping the family intact does not bring in revenue. Now, foster care and court costs, now THAT brings in some chump change.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm not sure where you live but there are quite stringent guidelines for removing children from homes where I live. I'm sorry and quite shocked that it is not the case in your county. It actually costs quite a lot to do an investigation and most social service agencies aren't in the business of making money, believe it or not. There are plenty of other gov't agencies that might but social services usually gets the lowest budgets.

Anyway, therapy shouldn't be viewed as an added stress. It is more commonly used as a way of addressing stress in one's life. Everyone has a different take on this, but IMO, it is a way to get support and help and someone to lean on when times are rough. Personally, I don't see it as an added stress.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 

Why am I so damn irritable lately? Why do I keep on taking sides in their sibling rivalries?
I sooo wish I had my own room and I could go to bed without having to interact with him.

We're going through a tough time now and dh asked me what would help and not to consider $. I have a sitter coming 9-1 everyday. I go bike, etc for 2 hours and then take one kid out to lunch and a special treat for 2 hours. We all need & deserve some special time.

sometimes, it just happens. You can't explain it. You can't control it. Just look to how to resolve it.
My dh is out of town 5 days/week and my son has health issues which make him CRABBY. BUT, this week has been lovely so far.
GOOD LUCK


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

*


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Physically, I don't feel well- I have Fibromyalgia and I'm currently in a flare, but mentally I'm in a much better place.


hey, OT, but ds' issue is candida/yeast. And, in my studies







, i have learned that it often complicates fibromyalgia. have you ever looked into this? I talked to a lady who had fibromyalgia horribly and she has since resolved it. anyhow, OT and no offense I hope


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Even if CPS investigates and closes the case as "unfounded", it still causes added stress and weakens my trust in the therapist. I recently went through this when my mother's therapist reported me to CPS for homeschooling (the case was closed as soon as the caseworker saw that I had all the NYS required paperwork in order.)

But this isn't about fear of CPS- it's mostly about the fact that I'm already running around to a million different appointments and errands and I'm not doing well physically with all this running around. Adding in another appointment is NOT going to help things.

The Bach Flower Remedies I put together and started taking again, however, have been hugely helpful.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I forgot about this Ruth, but I had some sessions with an Emotional Freedom Technique therapist on the telephone when dd was an infant. She worked at the Optimal Wellness Center in Chicago (www.mercola.com). That was really helpful to me to help me diffuse alot of the emotional stuff I had going on after dd's birth. That 30 minutes of "me" time was really helpful while I was handling a colicky high need infant and dealing with Post Traumatic Stress. (talk about








) After you learn the technique you can do it by yourself, but I have to be honest, I'm not very good about setting aside time to do it myself.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Actually, what really happens is that it is rarely posted about here at MDC, except by the really honest and brave.

But, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And, we all can't be as relaxed at gentle as people in glass houses now can we?











I have been where Ruthla is. No judgment from me. I know from experience she is most likely judging herself more harshly than any of us ever could.










I firmly believe that there are many people on MDC who do *MANY* things that MDC members at large wouldn't condone. They don't speak up because of *this.* Which really is a shame, because people can't be honest with their feelings, get support.. and in effect, cannot be online who they really are in RL out of fear of being ostracized from their favorite mothering forum.

Ruthla, you have my support. Thank you for being so brave and honest.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
hey, OT, but ds' issue is candida/yeast. And, in my studies







, i have learned that it often complicates fibromyalgia. have you ever looked into this? I talked to a lady who had fibromyalgia horribly and she has since resolved it. anyhow, OT and no offense I hope









Yup. Another thing to look into is celiac disease/leaky gut syndrome. I have done a gluten free diet before and had almost completel resolution of my symptoms, but it is an unbelievably expensive and sucky diet to stick to. Very difficult to pledge a lifetime of GF, especially in the US where everything has gluten in it.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

My sympathy is with you, Ruthla.
I know what it is like to never get alone time.
And I know how it feels dealing with sibling rivalry.
My stepson (J) is 10 yrs old, my oldest daughter is 2 and my youngest daughter is 10 months.
J has always been out of control with his temper and with not sharing.
J gets violent and aggressive to my daughters.
I get so angry at J.
J has kicked, hit, shoved, arm twisted, and even bitten so hard he left a mark on A for over two weeks!
J's excuses always begin with "she" did.... to validate his actions.
*She's TWO!!! He's 10!!*

We're in the middle of my husbands 3 week visitation.
Can you tell?
Right now J is at his weekly counseling session with his dad.
J has been seeing a counselor for his anger/aggression issues for nearly two years.
I wish it would work.
We discipline J in the ways his mom and counselor suggest: Timeouts and discussing what would have been a better choice.

I also get so frustrated with A being too rough with her little sister.
There have been times I've been so angry at A I've yelled at her and I have spanked and felt sooooo bad about it because I don't believe in spanking.
When I've told her the umpteenth time to be gentle, that kicking is not a good choice, that biting gives owies (btw, A never bit until J bit _her_ over christmas break when she was only 18 mos old), etc.
and S is screaming in pain or discomfort.
That is when I sometimes lose it.
I try to keep my calm and for the most part I discipline A appropriately.
But those rare moments that I don't, have me feeling ashamed of myself and regretting it and wanting to turn back the clock.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 

Most days, I'm up with DD until I go to bed, and up with DS as soon as I wake up. Child-free time simply does not exist!!!

I'm responding late here, sorry, but I've just started rereading this thread.

I can relate to the lack of child-free time. One of my kids has trouble sleeping and is up late and one of the others is up bright and early. It's hard.

On a parenting list I'm on we were talking about how to deal with night owl kids who won't go to bed early enough to give their parent(s) alone time. What works for some is to set limits on the night owl. The child can be awake but should not be doing anything to disturb the parent(s). The parent(s) only interact with the child to the extent that they can stand it without going nuts









FE: Okay mom is going to stay up and read her book/watch tv and you can sit on the couch with me but please sit still and don't climb on me or whatever. Would something like this work for you?


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 

You said you were wondering why his stuff and their sibling rivalry triggers you...do you think it's triggering old stuff for you? I often find that when my reactions are really overdetermined for the given situation, it's probably about something else. And parenting and sibling issues can really bring that old stuff out.


I was wondering about this too. The times when I have to struggle the most to be logical and calm, when I just snap and have severe reactions without knowing why- are normally linked to an event from childhood involving a sibling or myself at the same age. Do you have a brother? A younger sibling? Were YOU a younger sibling who maybe got punished too harshly for doing things to older siblings? I've realized that I've gotten these stupid core beliefs in my head because of things back then- like children are an inconvenience, or 4 yo don't get snuggles or patience anymore because they're too old. Just realizing that they're there helps some.

I really hope you can get the time, support, and understanding that you need to help you be the mama you want to be. I'm still working on it too.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I forgot about this Ruth, but I had some sessions with an Emotional Freedom Technique therapist on the telephone when dd was an infant. She worked at the Optimal Wellness Center in Chicago (www.mercola.com). .

I just read through the entire thread, and wanted to add my support for EFT as well. In fact, you can learn to do it yourself for free on their website. I have trouble talking to therapists because I always feel on the defensive, but this has worked WONDERS for me. Not that I don't have issues anymore







but it has really helped so much. I have also started working with someone over the phone to help me with my "big" issues that I was having a hard time resolving on my own, but I did most of the work the first year on my own. Definately worth trying and keeping in your bag of tricks! In fact, if you search fibromyalgia on the website there are quite a few articles about using EFT to help the pain.

Good luck.


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