# What about kids who seem to just not be interested...



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

...in changing their bad habits??

I am all for AP methods. Emotion coaching, staying connected to your kid rather than punishing, etc etc. But it seems that all these methods assume that the kid really wants to behave appropriately and just doesn't know how to. What about a kid who seems to prefer to take the easy way out, even if that means hurting another?

DD feels her emotions very intensely. I get that. But at 6 YO I do not think it is okay for her to hit or yell when she is frustrated (over a math problem or because her friend isn't listening to her, etc). Or at least it is time for her to start working on strategies to deal with her frustration differently. I know these things take time, it's fine with me that she doesn't get it right every time if at least I saw her _working_ on it. But when I talk to her, she tells me that all my suggested strategies "won't work" and when I ask her what she thinks would be a good strategy she says she doesn't know.

I'm her mother, I love her more than anyone else in the world, but truly I think she just doesn't want to bother with learning how to deal with her frustrations in a way that doesn't hurt others. It's so much easier and more satisfying to just lash out, KWIM?

I should mention that from birth she has been the type that is not clued in to other's emotions. She's a really "good" kid, but I sense in her a lack of empathy. I try to talk to her alot about how people are feeling and how she is feeling. But I can't help but to wonder if that is a factor, because if she doesn't have much natural empathy it might be hard to get motivated to act kindly when you don't feel like being kind.

I've tried the natural consequence of removing myself when she hits or yells at me, but it freaks her out. It doesn't feel right to me, I fear it teaches her that mommy abandons her when she is bad. I want to be at her side, helping her learn how to deal with her emotions. But then it seems she takes advantage of that to just not try.

I believe she can control herself better, because when she is motivated she does just fine (like, she is a model student in class). I've heard people here say that kids act out at home because that is where they feel the most comfortable, but to me that is tantamount to saying it is okay to be disrespectful and mean to those who love you most.

Anyone got any ideas? I'm looking for 1) a natural consequence that will get her more motivated to deal with her emotions and 2) ideas about how to teach her empathy. Can that even be taught???


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
does just fine (like, she is a model student in class). I've heard people here say that kids act out at home because that is where they feel the most comfortable, but to me that is tantamount to saying it is okay to be disrespectful and mean to those who love you most.


I completely disagree.

A child yelling at you has NOTHING to do with being "mean." As her parent it is your job not to take her acting out personally. Your feelings should not be hurt by what she says.

Her acting out at home but not school is a good thing. It is about comfort, but it is comfort in the sense that *your child knows that you will love her no matter what she says or how you act.*

And personally I think you are asking way too much of her to want to "work" (ugh, I HATE that word it the psycholgical sense) on anything having to do with her emotions. Six year olds depend on us to do the work for them. They sometimes simply can't.

Some people especially some children are not very empathetic and how other people feel is simply not going to motivate them.

If this is only about her yelling at, and hitting you, I would really try to ignore the yelling and simply try to respond to her in the most calm manner possible.

As for hitting, I would make it clear that this is not Okay, but that you don't love her any less because of it. Gently take her hands and make it clear you wont' let her hit you but try to embrace her warmly and help her calm down. If she will not allow you to do this without more PHYSICAL lashing out, I would move away from her but stay in the same room with her.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

A child yelling at you has NOTHING to do with being "mean." As her parent it is your job not to take her acting out personally. Your feelings should not be hurt by what she says.
I guess "mean" isn't the right word, as it implies that she is intentionally trying to hurt the other person and I don't think she is, she is just lashing out. But it certainly is disrespectful and inconsiderate. I don't get my feelings hurt, that's not the problem. I know she loves me. But I worry that if she does not learn how to not lash out when she is feeling frustration/anger/whatever, it will cause a lot of problems for her later in life. Part of my job is to teach her to be a considerate, respectful, and kind human being; I don't see how allowing her to treat me or anyone else in ways that are inconsiderate, disrespectful, and unkind uphold that value.

Quote:

And personally I think you are asking way too much of her to want to "work" (ugh, I HATE that word it the psycholgical sense) on anything having to do with her emotions. Six year olds depend on us to do the work for them. They sometimes simply can't.
Hmm, I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. How can I do the "work" for her? If you mean to be with her while she is upset to comfort and soothe her, yeah I do that, that's why time-outs don't seem right for her because they just make her more upset. But beyond getting her calmed down, I want to teach her to be aware of her emotions and then have a plan of what to do when she feels like she can't control them and will lash out. Like go to a safe quiet spot, or sing a song, or come to me for a hug, whatever. My concern is that she just doesn't seem to want to try.

Part of the problem is that I am the opposite of her, I was the type of child that would generally melt with shame if I felt I'd hurt someone. So I'd really appreciate hearing from people who have a child like this (less empathetic) or were a child like this and their wisdom.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I totally agree with Maya.

6 years old is very young, and kids at this age often still need a lot of help with their emotions. They need a lot of empathy themselves, to help them name and articulate their emotions. They need people to model handling emotions calmly, who aren't frightened by strong emotion. They need help calming down, and help remaining calm enough to deal with a problem-this is how they learn to do it. Some kids seem to do it kind of naturally, other kids need a lot of help.

I have found that with my child who has intense emotional reactions and has a history of hitting and yelling when frustrated or otherwise upset, it is not at all helpful to focus on the hitting or the yelling. What does help (and it took me way too long to figure this out) is focusing on her feelings, her frustration, what's bugging her. This is how she's learning, finally, to express and handle her emotions in better ways, to solve problems in better ways. She needs us to be there, to remain calm, to listen, to model in our response to her strong emotions the words and actions we'd like her to learn, to help her and guide her, to help her understand how others feel. We find it's good to tell her we don't like being hit, we want everyone to be safe, and the like-that helps her see our perspective, and we want her to learn perspective taking because that is a skill required for empathy. We also learn or become able to give empathy by receiveing empathy, we've all likely had the experience of being in so much emotional pain that we need to be listened to and receive empathy before we can listen to others and give empathy. Developing empathy is a process, and I've heard that typically empathy in a child isn't fully developed until age 7 (probably earlier for some kids, later for some, and some kids just are more empathetic than others).

When my dd says "I don't know" when we ask what she thinks a good solution would be, I believe her. Some kids need help learning to generate ideas for solutions to problems. When she says "I can't" or "it's so hard" or "it won't work" I hear that she is discouraged, that it really is hard for her, that she's not confident she can. I have a hard time imagining that lashing out at others by yelling and hitting is something a child truly finds to be easier and more satisfying. Most kids want connection, feel better when getting along with others, want to be happy and not miserable and fighting with those they love. Most people who lash out are doing so not because they prefer to do so, and enjoy the pain they cause others, but because they simply do not know how else to get their needs met in a better way. For some people, learning better ways is harder than it is for others.

Kids that behave perfectly at school all day are not necessarily coping better with the frustrations they face or with their emotions, but often are keeping tight control over themselves to avoid rejection or embarrassment. At home, they do know their parents will love them no matter what and so they don't keep such a tight lid on. And keeping such tight control, without really coping better, is exhausting and just plain impossible to do all the time.

I would suggest, in addition to Maya's suggestions, spending some time reconnecting with your child, noticing and enjoying the wonderful aspects of her, nurturing your relationship with her, trying to see her from another perspective and with fresh eyes. I know from my own experience that this can be enormously helpful and healing.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

I have found that with my child who has intense emotional reactions and has a history of hitting and yelling when frustrated or otherwise upset, it is not at all helpful to focus on the hitting or the yelling. What does help (and it took me way too long to figure this out) is focusing on her feelings, her frustration, what's bugging her.
Thank you, this is something I want to think more about.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Thao -- I'm reading a lot of anxiety into your posts, and I can really relate to that. Raising healthy stable kids is a huge responsibility. We all worry about getting it right.

All the "expert" advice that I have read for myself and been taught (I'm training as a school counselor) has indicated that a general lack of empathy is not cause for concern until a child is past age 7, give or take a few months. (She is not hurting animals or anything that extreme, correct?) She has a little time.

Empathy is a hard concept -- certainly you can model it and work on it. But she needs to be able to think abstractly before she can really "get it." Empathy requires the ability to step out of yourself and look at things from another point of view. Thats tricky for anyone -- and she is just a little kid. She probably just isn't developmentally ready yet.

Is she only hitting you? Does she hit friends? I would be more concerned if she were hitting others.

The fact that kids act out their aggression toward their parents and at home is not a statement meant to say "its okay for her to do that." Its just meant to reassure you that she is normal. That all kids do it to some extent, and the fact that she is a "model student" is a really good sign. It means that she is "getting it" enough to apply the principles you are teaching her to the outside world.

When my kids have hit me, I hold their hands, tell them "no hitting," and I tell them what to do instead. I tell them to use their words, to tell me their feelings, to tell me the problem, and I comitt myself to listening.

Listening is important. More important than lecturing. If she needs to communicate her feelings, reinforce the use of WORDS by really actively listening.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Thao -- I want to say that I think you are doing well with her, based on what you've posted.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

No further advice on the lashing out, but as the mom of a "low empathy" kid, one thing that I've begun doing is pointing out the effect his behavior has on other people. So, not so much talk about emotions (though we do that), but more things like "When you don't say hello to your friends, they might think you don't like them/are angry at them." "When you rip the toys out of your sister's hands, it makes her scream. That means she's angry."

He's so much in his own head that he just doesn't detect some of the cues that other kids do.

The one thing that we use timeouts for is hitting/violence. It's not a "true" timeout because he won't stay in timeout without us being there enforcing it, but we do instantly remove him from the situation and take him to his room. Wailing generally follows, and then after he calms down, we will have him make amends with the person he hurt (usually we give him choices, "you can give them a hug, you can say you're sorry...").

And I do remove myself from him occasionally -- it has the same effect on him as it does on your daughter -- namely he goes ballistic. But when I'm losing it (I'm the spirited one in the family and the one who needs to cool down the most), it is the only thing I can do to keep from yelling/spanking.
And, I may get thrown out of the GD club for suggesting this







, but it does make more of an impression on him than staying with him does. Our relationship is strong enough that I think having mommy leave for a few minutes when nothing else is working is not sending a message that I'll only love you when you're good. He's never calm when I come back, so I"m there to help him calm down. My leaving is more a signal "I've had enough." I think kids do need this message sometimes that other people have limits of what they'll tolerate.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My child is only 4.5 but I think she has problems with empathy sometimes. When she is angry or upset she can say very hurtful things to her friends. Since I am one of those people who cringe at the thought of being hurtful to anyone (to the point where I avoid confrontation whenever possible) I have a really really hard time with this sort of behaviour. I feel awful for her friend and ashamed of her behaviour. I am constantly reminding myself that this isn't about ME. It's hard but I need to distance myself emotionally from the behaviour and you need to work on this as well, perhaps.

One thing I've been doing is talking to her about relationships and how important they are, and how lonely Life would be without them. I explain that, while her family will always love her no matter what, friends may not be so forgiving. But the more I do this the more I realize that she really just doesn't get it. So I'm glad you posted this thread, Thao as I need reminding of what has been said above:

She's too little to be expected to "get" empathy. Also, when your child says things like "they don't work" and "I don't know what to do" what I'm hearing is she really is frustrated and at a loss of what to do.

I honestly think you need to stop worrying that she is going to "have problems later in life" because of this. That's like worrying that she won't master calculus or driving skills because she can't do so now. Certainly you don't have to "take" being hit and you can tell her quite firmly and clearly that you won't let her hit you, but that is really all you need to do at this point, IMO.

You asked what natural consequences could motivate her to deal with her emtions. Well, you can't do anything because that motivation HAS to be internal. IN fact it is possible that your making an issue out of it is working against you in that respect. If she is around other kids, say, and her outbursts cause them to not want to play with her, you can listen to her talk about that and guide her that way, kwim? But she is going to have to find that motivation herself. And then that is where you come in to help her when she comes to you.

And I think the best way to teach empathy is to model it and point out how others feel in response to actions "you took your brother's toy away, he seems really sad about that". But honestly I think empathy can't really be taught; I believe it's an innate skill and it develops in it's own time.


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Piglet said: Also, when your child says things like "they don't work" and "I don't know what to do" what I'm hearing is she really is frustrated and at a loss of what to do.

ITA. I also hear that possibly she feels that your solutions won't work because they aren't addressing the real problem, or that they are variations on a theme, or that they don'tseem like something she can do. I think that if you are being disrespected or treated badly, you need to do something to stand up for yourself - both so that she sees how to act if she's in a similar bullying situation, and for your own self respect. Whether that is declaring that you refuse to be treated that way and walk away, or reminding her that if she doesn't want to be respectful she should find somewhere that is not a common area to hang out in for a while, or something else, it certainly sounds like you need to set a boundary for yourself and enforce it. -jen


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think it's okay to talk about and occasionally show your feelings, on a level she understands. I also think it's okay to walk out of the room if she's hitting you, *if* that is what you feel right doing. If not, I like Maya's advice on remaining present.

I think it's important to stay emotionally connected, keep talking, and working on the concept with her. Is she the youngest person around? It really helped ds to have small animals, like a pet, to care for at that age.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Thank you all for your suggestions. And thanks very much, Mamaduck, for your vote of confidence. You're right, I'm anxious about this. Partly because of input from family and friends that she is emotionally immature (non-AP people, yeah I know I shouldn't care but I do) and partly because of what Piglet said

Quote:

Since I am one of those people who cringe at the thought of being hurtful to anyone (to the point where I avoid confrontation whenever possible) I have a really really hard time with this sort of behaviour. I feel awful for her friend and ashamed of her behaviour. I am constantly reminding myself that this isn't about ME.
That really hit the nail on the head. That, and her daddy is a very intense person who also has problems expressing his emotions appropriately. He got absolutely no help with it as a child and is having to painfully (for him and for me) learn how to deal with his emotions as an adult. I know that our dd will be different because she is getting totally different parenting (he is on board with AP) but I still fear that if we don't "get it right" she will have the struggles he has as a grownup. Personality-wise, they are quite similar.

She hits both me and her friends, but it really doesn't happen very often. Mostly it other kinds of inappropriately acting out frustration: blaming, yelling, whining, screaming.

I agree with you, Piglet, that the motivation has to come from within, but do you think it sometimes needs to be helped out by external factors? Like: when she went through her phase of being a picky eater, I explained to her the importance of good nutrition etc etc, but I honestly think that if I left it at that she'd still be a picky eater because let's face it good nutrition is pretty abstract for a young child. So in addition, we made a rule that if she ate a little of each of the main food groups she'd get dessert; if she didn't she didn't. That extra motivation helped her create good eating habits for herself. Nowadays she doesn't even care about dessert but she still eats, without complaint, a little bit of each food group. So I wonder, if we see that our kid doesn't yet have the internal motivation in some important area (like a kid with naturally low empathy when it comes to being kind to others) isn't it a good idea to apply some gentle external measures (logical consequences or something of that type, I'm not talking punishment here) to help them along?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Another mom of a "not-so-empathetic" DD, who is also 6yo and who's mom was starting to worry that she would never develop empathy.

What I am seeing (finally) that the modeling, the explaining, the listening is starting to "work". Or maybe it's not the modeling, the explaining, the listening, maybe it's just a natural progression and natural development of this rather complex ability.

And this again reminds the impatient me that GD *does* work, BUT it "works" wa-a-ay more subtle and slower than any other "methods" if you will, exactly because it is not a method per se (if this even makes sense, LOL). It's the guiding and the leading, but allowing all the development to happen at it's own speed. And sometimes this speed is not fast enough for us, parents









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
but do you think it sometimes needs to be helped out by external factors?

Just like Piglet said (BTW - hi Piglet, nice to see you again!), external factors (imposed external factors, not the ones that exist naturally) may actually slow down the development. Or sometimes what can happen with external prodding - the child will start "acting" empathetic (I've experienced it with DD several times when she was not ready to truly feel empathy, but wanted to please me







). It hit me how much I don't want that and made me back the *** off.

And another thing - often when we feel "that's it, it's been too long, there must be something wrong (like when we wait for kids to start talking or walking or reading), our kids are right about to reach that milestone and the anxiety that we, the parents feel it is an actual signal that it is about to happed.

So keep on modeling empathy, talking about empathy, reading about empathy - your girl is soaking it all in, even if it does not seem so.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

external factors (imposed external factors, not the ones that exist naturally) may actually slow down the development.
Irinam, can you tell me how it might slow down development? I want to be aware of that.

When I talk about an added external factor, I don't mean that external factors can make her _feel_ more empathy. That's going to develop at its own pace, I know. What I mean is external factors that will affect her _actions_. Like back when she was four and really didn't want to eat her veggies, the thought of dessert helped her do it. Now she "grown into" that habit and lectures her friends on the importance of eating a balanced diet LOL.

Another example: we have a rule in our house that if you hurt someone else, even accidentally, you say you're sorry. This rule is mostly in place because dd wants it, it is VERY important to her that her friends say sorry to her if they hurt her. So I said fine, we'll make it a rule but you have to do it too. I know a lot of GD practitioners frown on this kind of "forced" regret. But what I see happening amongst her friends is that the feeling is starting to follow the form. The kids say they're sorry because they know it is expected of them (and yes of course we have explained why) but then they see how much better it makes their friend feel, and how playtime goes more smoothly when one says they're sorry, and they are more and more willing and sincere in their apologies. Does that makes sense?

It seems to me that, as parents, we sometimes have to teach and mandate a certain form of behavior before the child is necessarily mature enough to have the inner motivation to do it. We all do it when we tell our 2 year olds they can't run in the street. Isn't applying external motivation (again, I don't know what kind) to a child who is being hurtful to her friends or family basically the same thing?

I'm not just playing devil's advocate here, this is something I've wondered about for a long time and I'd really like to hear your responses.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Just throwing this out there...

I am the mother of a recovering biter. She has a temper, and I honestly believe there's something about the tactile experience of biting that she finds satisfying. For the record, she's 4 1/2, not 6. The last time she bit her sister, I asked her if she could think of another thing to do when she was angry her answer "I like doing things my way"







: .

I told her that she _had_ to stop biting and that if a grown-up bites someone it's called assault and they go to jail. She knows that she's not a grown-up- I don't think I scared her, but I think it did finally let her know just how socially unacceptable biting is. She hasn't bitten anyone since (or even threatened to), and its been a month at least.

I'm not sure if it's GD-- I suppose some people might feel I was threatening or trying to scare her, but it did work, and she's still the same kid, minus biting. Perhaps your dd needs a rational reason not to hit?

As someone much further on the "thinking" end of the spectrum than the "feeling" end, sometimes GD seems to be a bit too reliant on getting inside other people's heads. Personally, I need some hard and fast guidelines-- how my actions affect others just isn't that apparent to me, particularly in the heat of the moment.









ZM


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
When I talk about an added external factor, I don't mean that external factors can make her _feel_ more empathy. That's going to develop at its own pace, I know. What I mean is external factors that will affect her _actions_.

It seems to me that, as parents, we sometimes have to teach and mandate a certain form of behavior before the child is necessarily mature enough to have the inner motivation to do it. We all do it when we tell our 2 year olds they can't run in the street. Isn't applying external motivation (again, I don't know what kind) to a child who is being hurtful to her friends or family basically the same thing?.

I still have these questions myself at times. With my child who has a difficult time with empathy and yelling and hitting, I have found that there aren't many external factors that affect her actions--if affecting her actions means preventing yelling and hitting consistently, "making" her refrain from yelling/hitting. Does that make any sense? We do teach that yelling and hitting are hurtful and that it's not okay to yell or hit, our expectation is that our kids will solve problems without yelling or hitting. But that alone doesn't solve the problem, and when we have tried external motivators like time out or rewards our experience has been that these things don't work to solve the problem either (these things do work for some people, certainly). The problem for my dd seems to be that it's taking her longer to learn to manage her emotions and problem solve, and empathy is slower in coming for some reason (maybe because she's unable to set her own feelings aside enough yet, and this really is a skill). So external factors, like our disapproval-alone-of hitting and clear stance that problems can and should be solved without hitting, teach something but they don't teach her what she needs to know to actually do better. Giving consequences, like time-out or rewards for not hitting, also didn't affect her actions because she first had to learn to do better--if one doesn't have the skills to manage conflict and frustration in better ways, having external "motivators" isn't going to change your behavior. This was our experience (and I recognize that it is not everyone's experience).

Writing this I now have this question: Isn't a parent's active listening, modeling, and guidance through problem solving and management of emotions itself an external factor that helps a child learn? Isn't that expectation that a child will and can learn to manage herself more effectively, though she may need some help, an external factor, a teaching, a "mandate"? Certainly a different kind of external factor than, say, a time-out or reward or punishment/logical consequence, but still an external factor?

We've found this process to really help our child: she hits/yells, we say "are you angry? what's up?" She wouldn't do what I want. She's bad! "You're angry, she didn't do what you wanted her to do" yes "I understand. I don't like to see hitting (that's not safe)/hear people yelling at each other/she doesn't like to be yelled at/hit. Let's figure out a better way to solve this problem." And then we can go on, with a calm(er) child, to solve the problem in a better way. Or at least, if that's not needed, we have modeled (and she has practiced) expressing emotions with words rather than yelling/hitting. And we have deepened trust, so that the next time she is more willing to let us help her calm down, more open to learning to calm herself. And each time it gets easier, she learns more, and she becomes more confident in her abilities too. This requires a lot of involvement, effort, guidance--we have to jump in to help just as we'd jump to scoop up a toddler about to run into the street, and it requires effort at prevention just as we'd work on prevention if we know our toddler is likely to try to run into the street when we go out. To be sure, we do still have problems, but she is making progress. And we trust that she will continue to make progress and will learn what she needs to learn, in time. Now that's just what my child needs, and what works for our family, but I don't think it's any less clear or has fewer guidelines for behavior than other approaches. It's just different.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

Writing this I now have this question: Isn't a parent's active listening, modeling, and guidance through problem solving and management of emotions itself an external factor that helps a child learn?
I wish! I am by nature a very calm person, and I know I've been modelling this for her all along. I could totally deal with this when she was four because it seemed so age-appropriate. When she's six and still doing it... yeah I get anxious.

But your post is very helpful. I do think that although I (mostly) talk to her calmly, I let disapproval -- judgement -- sneak in. In my tone of voice or the way I phrase things. I've been thinking of her preschool teacher today. The woman was a god, I don't think I've ever seen a better teacher. She was so firmly in control and yet never disaproved of or judged even the most difficult child. It's got to be a lot easier to be that way about someone else's kid though, KWIM?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, it is easier when its someone else's child. But there is a lesson to be learned in that. Sometimes we need to practice detachment. I don't mean detachment in the relationship --but we need to recognize that our kids are separate beings from ourselves, and not allow ourselves to be muddled by feelings of shame, embarassment, fear, and anxiety when we are addressing their behaviors. She is her own person.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
Irinam, can you tell me how it might slow down development? I want to be aware of that.

First thing that comes to mind is a child showing empathy to satisfy the "external factors" (whateer they might be. Like in my example - acting empathetic, but not really feeling it. By acting it out they might feel that that's all there is and the actual empathy may be slower to develop

Second thing that I can imagine (by trying to put myslef in their shoes) is trying too hard/feeling bad for myself when I don't really know how exactly is it to FEEL empathy. Then I would be too busy concentrating on my own "shortcoming" to care about anybody elses feelings, which is what empathy is - concentrating on somebody else feelings.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

My dd1, also 6 yo, is a "low-empathy" child in some ways. Especially, in comparison to her little sister, who at 4 (but then honestly since birth) has always shown a very mature understanding of emotions (her own and those of people surrounding her). The 6 yo is also a model student in her class, which the 4 yo is certainly not. What I find is that, the more I talk to dd1 about emotions, the more I stress how her actions affect other people's emotions, the less she _shows_ she cares. I am afraid that she actually interprets all this talk as shaming, and she resists the shaming. Also, she can very well see that this way of talking is directed at making her change the way she behaves in subtle and not too subtle ways. And she resists, resists, resists manipulation. With her, it is much better to "cut the crap" and focus on what needs to get done. A critique of what she's done wrong today is useless to her, makes her feel hopelessly "bad" and only contributes to make her behave worse.... I am not good at this, I get it wrong countless times because I did grow with a lot of manipulation, very hidden manipulation, my mom - whom I adore and who was very very gentle - was and still is also very manipulative. It is so difficult for me to untangle the gentleness and the manipulation, and I am grateful to dd1 for showing me the difference. I hope I improve - although I know I passed on already quite a lot of what I received, unfortunately.
Anyway, getting back to the hitting, what worked for dd1 was asking her when she became too upset if she would prefer a hug or going to her room (before things escalated to the level where she'd start hitting) She almost always chose to go to her room for awhile...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Another thread with wisdom of Sledg.









Pat


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
..... But what I see happening amongst her friends is that the feeling is starting to follow the form. The kids say they're sorry because they know it is expected of them (and yes of course we have explained why) but then they see how much better it makes their friend feel, and how playtime goes more smoothly when one says they're sorry, and they are more and more willing and sincere in their apologies. Does that makes sense?.

Makes a lot of sense to me, and I see the same dynamic around me, as well.

Otherwise, personally, I don't know what to think when people say your child shouldn't be expected to be able to do x or y by a certain age. What criteria are they using? And what about the mom's instincts? When is it ever "The mom thinks it's a problem...she knows her own kid...she might actually be right?" Sure, some moms expect too much. And some kids won't be doing x, or y, or z by a certain age. But when I look at my own DD, there are often times when I think-- "She has the capacity to do this, regardless of what others say is the appropriate age for this behavior." When I follow my own instincts, I'm not always far off the mark.

Also....recently I stopped playdates with a friend who's 4 year old son was often violent with my 2 year old.







: He's almost 5, and I felt he did have the capacity to learn not to hurt others. Now I read that his behavior is normal and okay, age appropriate. I dunno. I feel like that point of view would be underestimating the capacity of this particular kid. If it is underestimating what he can do, is that in his best interest????? And when do we say "You knew very well that kicking that child in the stomach was going to make her cry. It's not okay to kick other children, and I REALLY expect you to stop it, or else." Then put a consequence behind the "or else?"

xoe


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## Inci (Apr 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scoutycat* 
I think that if you are being disrespected or treated badly, you need to do something to stand up for yourself - both so that she sees how to act if she's in a similar bullying situation, and for your own self respect. Whether that is declaring that you refuse to be treated that way and walk away, or reminding her that if she doesn't want to be respectful she should find somewhere that is not a common area to hang out in for a while, or something else, it certainly sounds like you need to set a boundary for yourself and enforce it. -jen

I agree with this. If she hits you, and this bothers you/hurts you, it's appropriate to let her know that. Exclaim "OW!", allow your facial expression to show whatever displeasure you're actually feeling, follow your instinct to at least back up a few steps.
IMO, this _especially_ makes sense when one is trying to help a child learn empathy. When a child hits me and I try really hard to remain detached and neutral and calmly respond, "Hitting is not okay, hitting hurts," I'm sort of contradicting myself, because I'm not actually showing any signs that I'm feeling upset/hurt by being hit.
I find that it's more honest for me to say, e.g., "That hurts me, and I don't want to get hurt, so I'm going to take a break from coloring with you [or whatever]. If you need to hit, you can hit [the pillow, whatever's acceptable]. Let me know when you're done hitting, so I can come back."
I don't think it's awful to temporarily leave a 6-yr-old by going to the next room, or at least across the room, whether this upsets her or not... it's natural consequences. If you hurt/hit someone on purpose, it's likely that they'll want to get out of hitting range.

(Note: this strategy of mine is not fixed in stone, is always being revised, and is dependent on the context and the child's age.)


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow, how did this thread get resurrected after almost a year?









I'm kinda glad it did, though, because I had an interesting conversation with my husband the other day. Basically I expressed to him my concerns about dd's lack of empathy and he said well of course, he was the same way as a child. And that he could see that the way I was handling it wasn't very effective. Basically I've been trying to get her to see how her actions affect others by saying things like "that really hurt my feelings" or "I'm feeling angry" or "how would you feel if your friend did that to you". He said that none of these approaches would have worked on him as a child because he just didn't care enough. What DID work was his mom saying, "this is wrong, and it's my job to teach you what is right. I am doing this for you, not for me." In other words, the more authoritarian approach. But from his perspective as a child, it made more of an impression on him -- I guess because the focus was on him rather than someone else.

Which brings me back to thinking that the less structured forms of GD aren't most effective for some kids. And that we need to stay on the more structured end of things.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Thao, it is funny this got resurrected!

I wanted to recommend the book "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene and the associated website here -- http://www.thinkkids.org/parents/ .

My dd1 who is also 6, almost 7, has problems with empathy, too, but weirdly enough is super sensitive to any kind of drama or suspense or tension in a book or video. It's like she can totally feel it in that kind of media, but in real life it merits a big "so what". It's frustrating, but we keep working on it and try to model empathy for her by showing empathy to her feelings.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Beanma, my dd is exactly the same way. She doesn't watch any movies AT ALL outside of looney tunes cartoons. Any kind of feature film has to have dramatic tension in it and she simply can't handle it.

(Well, I did get her hooked on Red Dwarf, but we don't watch the ones with monsters







).

I'll check out the book when I get back to the US. I've read their website and I'm not sure if it will be useful or not.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

well, I haven't read the whole website, but I got some interesting ideas from the book.

I think with my dd1 she uses denial a lot to cope with her strong feelings and when the feelings are too strong for that to work, she has a freak out. I see the denial with things like being sick. She has a lot of anxiety around the dr's office and the thought of being sick initiates a lot of that anxiety so she'll just deny it. She refuses to let me take her temp or anything. So with developing empathy denial is not particularly helpful. For example, she might feel a bit bad (empathetic) that she hit her sister and made her cry, but in an effort to not feel those bad feelings she will deny her own empathetic feelings. That's my theory of the moment at least.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Hm, that could apply to my dd. Like, she rarely apologizes to me when she has been rude. One time I asked her why and she said because she feels embarrassed by it. She is a very proud kid. That part I understand, I remember feeling the same way when I was little.

May I ask for an example of how the book you recommended helped? What was one of the interesting ideas it gave you?

'Cause like I said, I've read the website and the conflict resolution stuff is great but I do that ad naseum and quite frankly at this point I think I need to talk less, not more







.


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## chrysalis (May 8, 2007)

i am so grateful for this thread! my dd is empathetic in other emotions but certainly NOT when she is fired up and angry or disappointed or whatever it is about she decides to be unruly about. or maybe she isn't even deciding anything...she's just feeling it and expressing it. she is now 5. she has kicked me, hit me, scratched me...sticks her tongue out at my mom sometimes and says mean things. i tell my mother not to take it personally and let it ride...not to necessarily ignore it but not to argue w/ megh when she is like this...just let her know you love her and don't leave. i am not always that great taking my own advice. i get bent out of shape...or i'll cry my eyes out and retreat if i was kicked hard enough. i've even pulled the car over like the other night she was making a big fuss about the radio station and i kept trying to find a song on that we both could agree upon...she wound up kicking my cheekbone and it hurt and surprised me so much i pulled the car over and said i'm going to the cops so they can talk w/ you about hurting people. its NOT ok, i've told you this before. she gets freaked out and thinks she will go to kid jail...even though i've told her no, i just need someone to tell you it isn't OK to hurt people, megh. i need help sometimes if you won't listen to me. of course i never bring her to the police station.......but sometimes as a single mama i feel like i need that. at least i say it. i don't mean it. i know that was horrible of me. so yeah...it isn't easy when our kids act like this....the only thing i can say is they are expressing and don't always have the words or ability to chill themselves out. i can say chill out or calm down or why don't you hit this pillow or sing a song or whatever but she will resist and keep on yelling at me or saying really nasty things like i hate you or whatever. i think she feels very safe and comfortable w/ me and so she expresses this way w/ me/around me. my mom i think she feels semi- comfortable w/ as well so she does it w/ her too. this is a great thread and i'm enjoying reading all of your input/shared experiences. thank you. its good to know we are not alone in this.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
I think with my dd1 she uses denial a lot to cope with her strong feelings and when the feelings are too strong for that to work, she has a freak out. I see the denial with things like being sick. She has a lot of anxiety around the dr's office and the thought of being sick initiates a lot of that anxiety so she'll just deny it. She refuses to let me take her temp or anything. So with developing empathy denial is not particularly helpful. For example, she might feel a bit bad (empathetic) that she hit her sister and made her cry, but in an effort to not feel those bad feelings she will deny her own empathetic feelings. That's my theory of the moment at least.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
Like, she rarely apologizes to me when she has been rude. One time I asked her why and she said because she feels embarrassed by it.

Well, since this thread has been revived, I want to ask...don't you think the above examples are pretty universal? I mean, I have those exact same reactions, and I'm a grown woman. I think everyone does. Who isn't a little embarrassed at having to apologize? It's admitting you made a mistake. The same with feeling bad about something you did (especially to a sibling), and consequently trying to replace the guilt with anger. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I'm wondering if we occasionally get so caught up in being good at GD that we forget to let our kids be human?


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## Shirada (Jul 29, 2002)

I am glad that this thread got resurected! My dd1 is very much like the descriptions of others children in this thread. She is now 7.5 and I do not feel I handle her very well. Lots of food for thought here.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I want to come back to talk about this, but I just wanted to pop in and say that my dd1 has a much harder time with this stuff than dd2 who will readily say "sorry" w/o prompting when she bumps you. I don't think dd1 is way out of the norm, but I do think she has a harder time with her emotions in general.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Well, since this thread has been revived, I want to ask...don't you think the above examples are pretty universal? I mean, I have those exact same reactions, and I'm a grown woman. I think everyone does. Who isn't a little embarrassed at having to apologize? It's admitting you made a mistake. The same with feeling bad about something you did (especially to a sibling), and consequently trying to replace the guilt with anger. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I'm wondering if we occasionally get so caught up in being good at GD that we forget to let our kids be human?

This is a good point. Yes, there is an element in this that I don't want to be "embarrassed" by my dd. Got the whole dynamic going on where the extended family think she is spoiled and just needs a good spanking







:. And we are moving back to the US soon, so while we are looking for a house we will be living with Grandma!







But I am trying to be aware of that and not let it influence my choices.

But the larger issue is, how to help her get past the embarrassment and do the right thing? I do not know that she will just "grow out of it naturally" because she has been this way from day 1.

I think it was on this very board that I read a post about the difference between "reasons" for behavior and "excuses" for behavior. A reason simply explains why the behavior happened. An excuse relieves the person from responsibility for the behavior. Dd's embarrassment is a reason, an eminently understandable one. But it is cannot be an excuse, YK?


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chrysalis* 
i am so grateful for this thread! my dd is empathetic in other emotions but certainly NOT when she is fired up and angry or disappointed or whatever it is about she decides to be unruly about. or maybe she isn't even deciding anything...she's just feeling it and expressing it. she is now 5. she has kicked me, hit me, scratched me...sticks her tongue out at my mom sometimes and says mean things. i tell my mother not to take it personally and let it ride...not to necessarily ignore it but not to argue w/ megh when she is like this...just let her know you love her and don't leave. i am not always that great taking my own advice. i get bent out of shape...or i'll cry my eyes out and retreat if i was kicked hard enough. i've even pulled the car over like the other night she was making a big fuss about the radio station and i kept trying to find a song on that we both could agree upon...she wound up kicking my cheekbone and it hurt and surprised me so much i pulled the car over and said i'm going to the cops so they can talk w/ you about hurting people. its NOT ok, i've told you this before. she gets freaked out and thinks she will go to kid jail...even though i've told her no, i just need someone to tell you it isn't OK to hurt people, megh. i need help sometimes if you won't listen to me. of course i never bring her to the police station.......but sometimes as a single mama i feel like i need that. at least i say it. i don't mean it. i know that was horrible of me. so yeah...it isn't easy when our kids act like this....the only thing i can say is they are expressing and don't always have the words or ability to chill themselves out. i can say chill out or calm down or why don't you hit this pillow or sing a song or whatever but she will resist and keep on yelling at me or saying really nasty things like i hate you or whatever. i think she feels very safe and comfortable w/ me and so she expresses this way w/ me/around me. my mom i think she feels semi- comfortable w/ as well so she does it w/ her too. this is a great thread and i'm enjoying reading all of your input/shared experiences. thank you. its good to know we are not alone in this.









I think it is especially hard to do this as a single parent. I've never been one, but when dd was small my husband was so completely checked out with depression and medical issues I felt like one. I do think it contributed to some of the mistakes I made. Not making any generalizations about single parents, because there are awesome single parents -- but for me, I just don't think I am personally strong enough to do it well.

You know your dd best. If you think this is something she will grow out of, it's just a stage, cool. If something inside is telling you it is more permanent than that, then maybe you need to move to the more structured side of GD. Imposing consequences and whatnot. I honestly think some kids need it.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Thao, the main thing I got from that book was to empathize first. Too often my first impulse is to correct (like if dd1 sticks her tongue out at somebody at the grocery store) rather than to empathize. That's hard. The author's point is if you can connect with empathy then your other words can be heard, but if you can't make that initial connection the other words often fall on deaf ears. I think it does work with my dd1 and then she can listen to what I tell her about empathy. "Do you not feel like talking right now? (empathy) Sticking your tongue out at people can be really rude and they might feel sad or mad. (the problem) Can you think of another way to show that you don't feel like talking that won't hurt feelings? (invitation to solve the problem)" That kinda thing -- if I ever have my wits about me enough to do it.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

I just finished reading Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, by Naomi Aldort (can everyone tell???!!) and found it to be just...wonderful. I like that she not only models GD, but also respects children enough to teach parents not to indulge their sensitivities. So, no shaming, but no rescuing either. It's slightly confusing, I will admit, and I am seriously considering calling her to ask some advice (about dealing with DH, not so much DCs.) I LOVE love love her acronym SALVE- Separate (emotionally; IOW, separate your inner dialogue about DC's putrid behavior from her self) Attend (give her ALL your attention), Listen (SHHHHH), Validate (without adding drama) and Empower (get out of her way and trust her to find solutions.) I highly recommend this book! My two are 20 and 16, and I have found this approach to be so freeing for all of us. It's so about letting go of power and control. A PP said something about delaying development, and ITA. When we take responsibility for our children's behavior through control and punishment, we rob them of the opportunity to internalize the lessons. Usually when a family comes to me with kids that "don't care" it is because the parents are taking on too much responsibility for the child's behavior. It really is almost miraculous to see what happens when a parent sees their child as competent and capable. Kids will certainly rebel for a minute, because it's so much easier to let mama or daddy "fix" it. But when they come to realize that no one will bail them out, and yet, will stand with them in support, they start on their journey to adulthood with a much better attitude.


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