# MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :)



## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

A friend of mine had a baby exactly 10 weeks ago. The baby was born 7lbs 2ozs via c-section after both a failed induction. She hired one of my other friends (they previously didnt know each other) to nanny for a few weeks for her while she tied up some loose ends before summer at work (shes a professor at a very prestigous public health school, im not kidding). Since my friend has been nannying for them she has witnessed some very sad and disturbing behavior.

The mother is giving the baby breastmilk, exclusively from a bottle. The mother will only allow my friend to feed the baby *2 ozs every 3-4 hours!!* The baby screams all the time. Before he eats, then keeps sucking and sucking on the empty bottle, but the mother insists that he is fine and doesnt need more. The just took the baby to the doctor last week, he only weighs 9lbs! The doctor is so concerned he told them they need to give the baby formula.

The mother also wont touch the baby at all. She wont even breastfeed or hold the baby at night. The husband is friends with mine and told mine he does all the nighttime feedings with a bottle. This week she left for two days for a business trip and literally didnt hug or kiss the baby at all when she left just said "mommys leaving, bye bye." Waved. And left. My friend was so put off.

The husband is just really weak and thinks because his wife has a doctorate that she must know everything. But I think she must have post partum depression or something, because she is literally starving her poor baby.

My husband and I are so upset we arent sure what to do. I sent her a text the other day asking her how things were going after she sent me one and she NEVER RESPONDED?!

Im at a loss. My husband thinks its child abuse and is livid. Im more from the "let people damage their own kids" mentality, but if something happened to this poor baby because she is mentally unstable and her stupid husband just trusts her judgement, I will never forgive myself...

PLEASE, someone give me some insight!! We are so concerned and would really like to hear everyones opinions. Have any of you experienced this with anyone you know?? Is this normal? Are we being over-concerned?

Thanks so much in advance!!!


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## swelldoula (Nov 10, 2010)

No. You are not being nosey or overly concerned... and this is not normal behavior. You need to get a hold of someone from CPS and let them know what you (or your friend) have witnessed. If they decide that nothing abnormal is going on, then fine. But, it really sounds to me like this mother needs some help. She obviously isn't treating her baby this way out of ignorance....there have to be some underlying issues. Don't let this baby suffer anymore- please tell someone what is going on!


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## canadiangranola (Oct 1, 2004)

Wow! I think I would have your husband talk to her husband about it. It sounds like she a) hasn't bonded with the baby at all and b) doesn't know the first thing about babies.

If I were your friend who is nannying, I would be very inclined to quit, as I couldn't stand by and watch such horrible treatment, but then what happens to the baby when the mother is supposed to be caring for her?

How close are you to this person? Could you talk to her about it in person ( I really don't think a text would cut it.)

Could be she's grieving her c-section and has post partum bad, and then someone needs to help them. If it were me I would most likely choose the baby over my relationship with the mother (as in if I offended her so badly she broke the friendship, at least I would know I had done my best for that baby.) But I tend to think that someone has to defend the ones that can't defend themselves.

Good luck, it sounds like a crappy situation all the way round.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks for responding so fast you guys!

So, I would totally sacrifice the friendship. In a heartbeat. But the husband is one of my DH's bestfriends. :/ And hes not too keen on turning them in to cps. The MIL is visiting and my DH wants to tell her and see what she says, but Im sure my friend is too smart to starve the baby in front of her MIL and that will just buy the baby sometime getting fed more for two weeks.... and then the mom will put the baby into day care (she cannot afford a full time nanny, so my other friends last day was today). my husband thinks at least the day care will feed the baby or tell the mom its not enough food... but if the mom really has PPD or worse post partum psychosis, then the baby is not much better off... just eating more during the day. but he still comes home to a mother that doesnt want to touch him or feed him what he needs.

i dont think she will talk to me about it. shes totally closed off emotionally even before the baby.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, if the friend is going to continue nannying, I think she should get some formula and feed the baby more. She can't sit by and watch the baby starve. If your friend knows who the pediatrician is, maybe she can document what she is seeing and bring it up with him. He might be willing and able to talk to the mother.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I'd make a last ditch effort to talk to the mother and father. Maybe they are just so stunned by depression that they can't think straight, maybe the father senses something is wrong but is second-guessing himself because no one is saying anything. Because surely if something was wrong, someone would say something??? At the very least, you could yourself get a feel for what's going on.

Does your friend know who the pediatrician is? He needs to know why this baby isn't gaining and there needs to be a documented history of behavior here from a witness.


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## MoonWillow (May 24, 2006)

Isn't it standard for a Dr. to ask how much a baby is eating and how often? I know some don't generally do this but I'd especially hope that they would in a "failure to thrive" type situation.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

So my friend (the nanny) had her last day on Friday. Now the baby will go into day care most of the time. And my friend the nanny literally just moved to America on a student visa just a few months ago. And is totally afraid of saying anything to anyone other than me, because she wasnt supposed to be nannying as a student visa doesnt permit "working." I tried to tell her that just a few weeks, every couple of days, for a few hours isnt working, its more like helping and that the regular police are so not interested in that. But foreigners can be very afraid!!

I talked to my husband again. We are going to invite them over for dinner this week and see whats going on. If we see anything odd, we will either say something to them, or just call cps. i hate to think of that baby crying through the night because his little belly is empty. its really sad. i wish she wasnt acting like this!!

I mean, does anyone not feed on demand?? do parents really setting a feeding schedule? Ive never heard of this. Where you let the baby cry until its "time" to eat? Its so counter intuitive.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

*There is no ethical dilemma*. This family needs help. Presumably, they don't want to be harming their baby, but they are.

You need to contact someone who can intervene. Not 'if something seems odd' at dinner. Now.


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## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi - I agree - there is no dilemma here - that baby clearly needs more food. I would confront both parents together - directly, and compassionately explain that 2 oz of breastmilk every 3-4 hours is clearly inadequate and then take it from there asking questions. I'd do it in person in as non-threatening an environment as possible. I'd also document everything that happens. This is truly serious. That baby must be starving, and needs an advocate if the father is being passive.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Ugh, this is so hard! I will have my husband call them today. The fathers parents just got in from out of the country and now the MIL will be caring for the baby while the mom is out of the country for a few days. so the baby will definitely be getting fed (likely overfed knowing the culture). So, when the mom gets back we will go over and talk to them.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I think this is one of those cases where day care is better than home. I am pretty sure day care worker will ignore the direction of feeding the baby 2 oz as they really do not like crying babies in day cares.

This sounds like something quiet a bit more serious than depression. You can file an anonymous report with CPS . Bad things happen not because everyone o bad thing but because one person does bad thing while others are silent. Sometime the best thing is to report a persona and home they get a referral to mental health professional.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> The MIL is visiting and my DH wants to tell her and see what she says, but Im sure my friend is too smart to starve the baby in front of her MIL and that will just buy the baby sometime getting fed more for two weeks....


OK if your friend will adjust her behavior for her MIL, then it sounds like what she is doing is intentional and outright abusive... rather than just clueless or careless. I'm sorry you're in this situation, but I think you need to report it to someone ASAP. If I calculate this generously (assuming the baby actually gets fed at night and minimum every 3 hours) then the baby is only getting about 16oz of milk at most. I never bottlefed but I'm pretty sure that is barely HALF of what he should be getting. Please don't stand by and watch that baby starve to death, just so your DH can keep his friend...







I just want to cry now, that poor baby.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Since you're friends, any chance you know her parents and her dh?

Is there any chance at all that there was some confusion? Like she told the nanny to only thaw 2oz at a time and not to leave it out for more than 3-4 hours? (Okay, that's a really long shot, but we can live in hope.)

Really, I'd start by talking to her, asking about the baby, asking how pumping is going, etc, etc. And be prepared to call CPS.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Man this is really getting to me.







I just had a mini-breakdown over this. Usually we hear about these things when it's too late... but it's not too late yet...

If you want to PM me info, I wonder if I could report to CPS for you??? Or could your other friend report it if you don't think you can? I've never dealt with CPS but if there is anything I can do I would be more than willing to.

This is going to haunt me....


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## MoonWillow (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


> OK if your friend will adjust her behavior for her MIL, then it sounds like what she is doing is intentional and outright abusive


I took this to mean that she doesn't agree with everyone telling her to feed the baby more formula but will do so in order to save an argument with her MIL.


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## dlm194 (Mar 23, 2005)

Hmmm.... I bet this is part of the problem. She is a smart woman. Everyone (including herself) assumes that she should know what to do and shouldn't suffer PPD, though hopefully most people know that Princeton-educated Brooke Shields suffered terrible PPD.

I have no idea how much my breastfed baby takes but I thought the rule of thumb was about 1oz per hour which means this baby is only getting about half of what he needs.

I wouldn't hesitate to call the pediatrician if you know who they go to. Doctors can only help if they have all the information and they often depend on other people to get it. I used to see the same NP as a friend of mine who was literally starving herself to death. I discussed the situation with other friends and we had no idea what we could actually do. i finally said the hell with it and told our mutual NP who was really appreciate because this friend was constantly coming to her with ailments and never admitted her food habits.

Perhaps some advice from a similarly educated professional will help this woman. I'd probably try that before CPS but the CPS in my state usually waits until children are eating drywall before they intervene. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> The husband is just really weak and thinks because his wife has a doctorate that she must know everything. But I think she must have post partum depression or something, because she is literally starving her poor baby.


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## Greenlea (Apr 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I mean, does anyone not feed on demand?? do parents really setting a feeding schedule? Ive never heard of this. Where you let the baby cry until its "time" to eat? Its so counter intuitive.


My sister's friend had her NB baby on a feeding schedule and WOULD NOT feed her unless it was time to do so, even if the baby was crying! They were two very educated people, but I guess were just mis-informed...? However, once they saw a doctor about her crying all the time, they fortunately listened to him and started feeding her on demand. What's bothering me the most is the mother is not listening to the advice of others and feeding her baby more. I understand babies eventually get on a schedule, but isn't it usually set by them, not the parents?

Something needs to be done here. You either need to get info to the husband ASAP and try to convince him his child is literally starving, especially if the mother won't listne to reason. OR call CPS. They can at least give her a referral for a mental health professional or have a record in case, GOD FORBID, something happens to the child. However, I agree with others. Daycare will be good for this baby.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I mean, does anyone not feed on demand?? do parents really setting a feeding schedule? Ive never heard of this. Where you let the baby cry until its "time" to eat? Its so counter intuitive.


Actually, yes, it still exists. I teach group fitness classes & on a forum for fitness instructors, someone was talking about scheduling her baby's feedings. I posted a TON of info about how awful this is, but she defended the practice! I wrote, "Surely, you didn't BF? That would be so detrimental to supply." She claims she not only BFed, but baby gained fine eating only every 3 hours. Of course, some babies just ARE fine eating only every 3 hours (the recommendation is BFing every 8-12 hours daily, so that's possible!) - I'm not sure if she left her babies cry until the 3 hour interval or it just happened to work out that way anyway.

As for weight, my DD was only 9#9oz at around 12 weeks, exactly 5th percentile. BUT - she was born 6# 4oz, and she has continued to stay on the same curves (15th % height, 5th% weight). *I* was the one paranoid, my pedi repeatedly told me not to worry at the 6 week check and the 12 week check when I went back ONLY because of my paranoia about weight. Of course, she BFs on demand & is held or worn nearly all the time but when I'm asleep.. but anyway, my point being, 9# at 10 weeks old doesn't necessarily equal a starving baby.

All that being said, yes, eating only 2 oz at a time, and only every 3-4 hours is awful! And failure to touch a baby, I"m pretty sure, is a standard sign of PPD, so I do think something is very wrong here. I'm inclined to think CPS isn't the way to go, but I agree with the others who say you should do something. Maybe rather than accuse, give a suggestion to the husband, like let him know how not picking up/hugging babies is a PPD sign. Just give him that FACT, so he can realize something isn't normal & try to act.


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

I would talk to them first, and make CPS a LAST RESORT. While I agree this child should be fed more, I have also seen CPS abuse their power under "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. In talking to them, find out more info- make sure the amount is accurate. "Are you really feeding her x amount of milk?", etc. Get the full story.

Also, is this a Babywise mom? It sure sounds a lot like Babywise to me. I have a friend who has her baby on a feeding schedule and it's a time limit. She doesn't nurse past a certain amount of time, even if the baby is still eating. The baby is growing, so that's good, but it still freaks me out. It's so unnatural.

Sorry you're in this situation! How awful!

But yes, definitely intervene, and also just beware of CPS and what they can do. I don't know if I would advocate them taking the baby away, especially if this mom has depression. The mom needs HELP. She needs a good friend to set her straight, and her depression will only worsen if the baby is taken away. Sorry to be coming from the other side like this, just cautioning, as I have personally seen CPS wrongfully ruin lives rather than help them. Just my two cents.

Maybe if you do call them, request that they just make visits? Request a more minor form of intervention before outright taking the child? Like a warning per se? I know if I were in this mom's situation, getting a knock on the door from CPS would FREAK ME OUT and I'd be willing to change almost anything to cooperate with them to prevent getting my baby taken away. But maybe that's just me...

However, I do realize this is serious! This is a toughy. And it's difficult to know what the wisest action is. I pray you will get wisdom and find good advice from people on this issue!

HUGS!


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Celticqueen*
> 
> Maybe if you do call them, request that they just make visits? Request a more minor form of intervention before outright taking the child? Like a warning per se? I know if I were in this mom's situation, getting a knock on the door from CPS would FREAK ME OUT and I'd be willing to change almost anything to cooperate with them to prevent getting my baby taken away. But maybe that's just me...
> 
> HUGS!


I just don't think this is feasible, as a matter of course. I don't think you can call CPS and "request" they do things a certain way, kwim? If OP calls them and explains the situation as she did here, they will be out there doing a full on investigation.

I would absolutely either call the pedi or CPS. The pedi si under obligation to report suspected abuse or neglect. If you don't want to do it, call him and report the underfeeding, or call CPS and if she is suspicious of you, you can blame the pedi. Or you could try talking to the husband first and seeing if you can get him to step in and get his wife help


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Just a quick reminder to the thread... I think everyone is being very gentle and aware, but do let's keep the focus on the OP and her situation and not get side tracked into a discussion of the personality or behavior of the mom or the role of individual members in that family. There's a lot of second hand/third hand information and it's impossible to tell what is actually going on.

It could be a mental health concern (I've had PPD and PTSD following an unplanned c/s and despite advanced degrees and a full "understanding" of PPD I wasn't the one to "turn myself in"... I was fortunate enough to have a DH and a family dr who saw the signs and got me the help I needed but most assuredly didn't "want" or feel was at all applicable "to me" at the time). Mothering Magazine has some wonderful articles about PPD and PPPsychosis, but even a gentle suggestion of a well known mental health disorder from a non-family member might not go over very well. 

And it could be this family is following one of the (sadly, many) parenting philosophies that include scheduled feedings. There have been infant deaths and court cases and much heartbreak surrounding some of these philosophies, but the books are still widely available at mainstream bookstores and are even the corner stone of some church based parenting programs. If this family is following a specific philosophy, and especially if it is one that is encouraged by their church, then again... a suggestion that the philosophy is doing more harm than good for their infant may be taken the wrong way. However, you might approach the minister of their congregation if that is applicable here.

It's a very difficult situation because things like scheduled feeding or a lack of socially displayed maternal affection aren't "crimes". A call to the family doctor (or minister) about possible PPD/underfeeding might be more helpful than a call to CPS since, again, scheduled feedings and a mother who travels for business aren't crimes and while CPS may open a file they probably don't have the staff/time/budget to investigate this sort of report in any detail.

And outside that... can you spend more time with this family so you have first hand information and can, perhaps, lighten some of this family's "new baby" load? Model other parenting philosophies in a non-confrontational way? Perhaps suggest a visit to a local ICAN or SOLACE group (these also have online support forums, ICAN specifically surrounding cesarean birth and SOLACE for all different sorts of birth trauma)? Offer to go with her to a LLL meeting so she can see other breastfeeding moms and perhaps adjust her expectations along those lines? Drop off a mother care package (c/s is major surgery, Earth Mama Angel Baby makes a c/s recovery kit, or you could make one yourself with some Milk Maid tea, lotion for scar massage, maybe a soothing eye pillow with lavender oil or some bach rescue remedy spray), offer to bring over a complete meal or two, that sort of thing? And have your partner "hang out" with his best friend a bit more with conversations along these lines?

I never would have gotten the help I needed if it hadn't been for my DH basically telling my doctor at a PP visit that he was sure I had PPD. I could have killed him in that moment, and I was mortified that I wasn't "holding it all together"... that someone, anyone, could POSSIBLY think something was wrong. But I'm so thankful he did what he did. And he is under standing orders to turn me in again if I start down the PPD path again.

Good luck to you and your friend... no matter what, she is fortunate to have friends who care and worry about her!


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## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

Just a thought, maybe she is so strictly rationing the breastmilk because she isn't able to pump enough? And is determined that her baby not have formula? Either way the poor thing needs to eat as much as s/he wants, if I were in a situation exclusively pumping and not getting enough I would definitely supplement with formula. If she is a new mom she may not even realize how much a baby needs to eat (even if she is book-smart on health issues).

As far as the not holding the baby, I don't know, some people really prefer to have other people take care of their babies and see no problem with it. I know a lady who literally hands her babies off to female relatives as soon as she is back from the hospital and goes right back to work, sometimes the baby stays on many days (including overnights) with the relatives without the mom there-- they just don't see it as a big deal. So I wouldn't be as concerned about that as only giving a baby 2 oz at a time.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, that is nowhere near enough food. My boys were (are) bottlefed, and take around 40oz/day of formula (each). Scheduled feeding seems more common than demand feeding amongst the parents I know, but even so, I've never heard of a schedule that only allows 1/2-3/4oz an hour for any baby! The boys were preemies and ate about 2oz every 3hrs at birth.

At that age, most folks who do scheduled feedings offer 4-6oz every 3-4 hours. Most will give a baby a bigger feed if they want it, though unfortunately may not offer an "extra" feeding. A rule of thumb for newborn formula feeding is 2.5xbaby's weight in lbs = number of ounces the baby needs per day. For a 9lb baby that means at least 22oz a day....

At that age, the boys normally ate about 4-5 oz every 2-3 hours (we demand feed). Now, they usually eat about 6-8oz every 4-5 hours. Sometimes more, sometimes less.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

I haven't read the replies yet, but... what ethical dilemma? you know that someone is starving their child, you call CPS. it's that simple. also, from the original post, it sounds like this mother could have a psychotic break if she's left alone with the baby, the child is not safe in that situation.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wombatclay*
> 
> And it could be this family is following one of the (sadly, many) parenting philosophies that include scheduled feedings. There have been infant deaths and court cases and much heartbreak surrounding some of these philosophies, but the books are still widely available at mainstream bookstores and are even the corner stone of some church based parenting programs.


I guess I don't see the scheduling itself as the problem -- it's the fact that she's only allowing the baby 2oz. If she was offering 4-6oz every few hours, I still might inwardly groan at the scheduling aspect, but wouldn't be red-flagging the baby's immediate health. I don't agree with scheduled feeding but I know many people do that -- but I don't know of any program that recommends feeding a baby THAT little???


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

I understand... 2oz every 3 hours just isn't enough. But that information was provided by a temporary/part time nanny, to a friend of that nanny, then to this list. And the pediatrician's concerns about weight gain have a similar "telephone game" quality. Going to CPS with a "my friend told me that another friend isn't feeding her baby enough, and that new mom friend isn't returning my text messages" just isn't going to help anyone in this situation, and it may cause actually hurt. By offering to help out the OP can not only relieve some of the completely normal stress on the new family, but see for herself if her friend might be suffering from PPD (or perhaps having a difficult time adjusting to her surgical birth, or to new motherhood in general) or if the infant might be suffering from more than colic or a cultural/familial atmosphere in which mom is less involved in the baby care and more involved in the "out of home" side of supporting the family.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wombatclay*
> 
> It's a very difficult situation because things like scheduled feeding or a lack of socially displayed maternal affection aren't "crimes". A call to the family doctor (or minister) about possible PPD/underfeeding might be more helpful than a call to CPS since, again, scheduled feedings and a mother who travels for business aren't crimes and while CPS may open a file they probably don't have the staff/time/budget to investigate this sort of report in any detail.


Scheduled feeding is not a crime, however, basically starving your baby is considered neglect and CPS does and should intervene in cases like these. OP--I would also definitely call the pediatrician. Explain who you are and that you understand that they cannot provide you with any information, but that you want to provide them with some information. I would also call CPS. wombatclay is right and they will likely not investigate--and if they do, there is about a 99.999% chance that they will not remove this child from this home, but it might scare mom into feeding this baby enough. I work in child welfare, and sad to say, mom's education, etc., will likely be enough to convince CPS to back off but it is worth a shot. You don't have to give them your name, and I doubt they'll figure out it is you since baby is also in daycare. Also, stick to the fact that the baby is being way underfed--not that mom is lacking maternal affection for her child. Good luck.


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

My BF baby was fed 2 oz every 3 hours when I went back to work at 7 weeks. She was fed on demand, and that is what she preferred. She also reverse cycled and nursed a lot when I was home, like every hour and a half. So while i understand the concerns of the OP, I also feel that there is a huge chunk of the story we don't have. Maybe she doesn't hold baby before she goes because she is broken up about leaving. Maybe she is suffering from PPD or PTSD. Maybe DH is doing bottles all night because the wife is hooked to a pump because baby has latch issues. What that woman and her DH need is support and guidence from her friends, her family, and her doctor, not the threat of a state agency taking away their child. Before I went to CPS I would do what the OP said she is doing - have them over for dinner and figure out exactly what is going on and why. Offer to help. Assess the situation for myself rather than hearing everything second or third hand. If they are intentionally starving baby, then yes, it is time for CPS. But there is a lot of other possibilities that should be eliminated before one can say this couple is abusing their baby.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Hey All, wanted to post an update! The mom is still out of the country on business and the MIL is here and feeding the baby. The father told my DH that "its so weird how happy the baby is with my mother." DH and I just cringed. DH decided to go over and visit them this weekend and talk to the MIL. He thinks she will be a more powerful voice to her son than he will. The MIL hasnt seen the mother and baby interact yet, bu Im sure once mom is home, the MIL will be very concerned with the lack of emotional connection.

I am shocked that many of you know people who schedule infant feedings!! I do have a friend whose newborn ate (and still eats) every 3-4 hours, but it totally freaked her out!! I've never known anyone to schedule feedings.

I'll post another update once I know more.

Thank you all sooo much for your input! I have been so distraught over this.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner. The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby. But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him" and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?" "What, no. The opposite actually, but its fine." I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle. And she didnt pump at all either. And we were there for 5 hours. She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality. Not like she doesnt care about him though. She really does think she is doing whats best for him. I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight? That makes no sense.

So, I did give her a bit of advice in a round about way. Right when I got there she started complaining about the MIL overfeeding and wasting all her milk stash, so I asked her a bunch of questions, "oh is the baby spitting up a lot?" "Yeah!" "Is the spit up chunky or just milk?" "Just milk." "Hmm, well, Ive never heard of overfeeding an infant. I think its probably fine unless your pedi thinks hes gaining too much weight." "Too much? No, hes underweight." "Oh, well then its probably fine, you have to be careful with underweight, doctors are required to report cases of infants not gaining enough weight to CPS and they will put the baby into a mandatory feeding program where they weigh the baby and you have to supplement with formula." "seriously?" "Thats what I've heard, yes. They take it very seriously. I would just feed feed feed him." Later, when she was complaining about her MIL saying she "gives terrible advice" and I said that "mine did too except when I was trying to put my son on a feeding schedule she said never to do that and once I stopped DS started gaining weight!" I could tell her wheels were turning.

I hope that it helps, the only comfort I have is that she doesnt seem depressed (other than being trapped with inlaws) and she isnt doing it on purpose. Well, not maliciously at least. I will see her again this week. She invited us over to go swimming. And the baby will start day care the day after the MIL leaves. So, they will certainly not under feed him!!! But I have to tell you, the baby looks terrible. REALLY TINY. I mean, hes still wearing newborn clothes and hes 3 months old now. He can barely hold up his wobbly head. He literally hasnt changed since birth. And he has trouble following things with his eyes  Hes definitely behind developmentally. I'll post again once I see some weight gain on him. I know this story has upset a few of you! Im sorry, but really appreciate the support from you all!!!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Poor baby. Thanks for the update OP. I am glad MIL is on the same page as you and that you were able to gently offer some guidance. Hopefully that helps. If not, I'd call CPS.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you for the update. I hope mom has reached a bit of a turning point & will consider what you've said... but mostly I just hope someone helps this poor baby.







I'm glad she's not doing it maliciously, at least, since that's how it sounded to me at first. Keep us posted...


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Some mothers do not love their children. It is nice to assume this is just PPD, but seriously, it might never change. It might be PPD, but it might just be how she is, which either way, it is not ok. But to me, it does not sound like PPD. If you two are close to the husband enough to talk to him, go to him when the wife is not around and talk to him about it. Maybe also, put in a private call to the pediatrician and let him/her know what you know but to keep it private that you called. You are just giving them information so they can keep an eye on things. I actually had to do that before, but it was a case of an older person who was not understanding things. The doctor never told him I called but ordered extra tests on him the next time.


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## cwtmommy (Jun 14, 2011)

maybe talk to her and have your phone record the convo or something and use it as proof of her doing what she is doing? this is so not right


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## khaoskat (May 11, 2006)

I am going to throw out a few thoughts...

1) Yes it is very common to have babies on feeding schedules. I was hospitalized with a FTT baby (due to a combination of issues starting a few months before). They put him on a strict feeding schedule, regardless of him getting hungry between feedings. When we were discharged, and saw our Ped a few days later, she let us modify it to nursing on demand...

2) She said to you he spits up a lot. She should let her ped know and maybe try to see if he has GERD or reflux. That was one of our major problems. Reflux/GERD babies can do one of two things -- either not gain weight due to eating just enough to keep from starving but still scream because of the pain; or they can gain so much weight they are overweight for their age.

3) Try to encourage her to actually nurse...find out if there is a reason why she is pumping and feeding rather than direct nursing..


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## Fulhouse (Jan 21, 2011)

I would like to see an update on this poor starving baby! How's he doing now?

My SIL did the baby wise thing. Its such a freakish control thing for these moms. Their top priority is not to let the baby get the Better of them. Who would want a mom like that? My SiL would be crying and leaking milk outside the closed nursery door, with baby wailing in hunger in the crib inside, waiting for the "right time" on the schedule to feed. Hideous.

It's one way to teach a new resident of this planet that it is a rough world and no one is to be trusted. Great, we have to live with these heartless people for the rest of our lives. And people wonder why some people are just not good people.


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## lunabin (Feb 16, 2009)

I can't help but comment here... if she's experiencing any ppd or pp psychosis, then it's not that she is being malicious, but simply using poor judgement. It sounds like she is not intentionally hurting him, but I still think this is worth calling out and getting professional help involved.

If you happen to know who the pediatrician is, you can call him/her and tell them what the nanny told you about their feeding schedule and your concerns with the mother. Doctors are mandated reporters, so they would have to make the decision about whether or not to get cps involved. BUT, as a professional who's been there - cps is not an agency out to get parents in trouble. They simply want to protect kids. This poor baby may be in the hands of 2 new and overly stressed parents who are not in a rational mindset to see what is happening here. The baby very likely will not be taken away, but it could be a wake up call that could save this baby's life and get the parent's the help they need!

I feel so strongly about this, that if you pm me the info I will call myself!


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## lavatea (Aug 24, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner. The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby. But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him" and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?" "What, no. The opposite actually, but its fine." *I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle.* *And she didnt pump at all either. And we were there for 5 hours.* She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality. Not like she doesnt care about him though. She really does think she is doing whats best for him. I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight? That makes no sense.
> 
> ...


Just some things that jumped out at me.

Some women don't BF but only pump and bottlefeed. Nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. Better than formula at any rate. And perhaps she didn't want to pump while you were over b/c it embarrassed her or whatever. 5 hours without pumping isn't that extreme. She may have pumped right before you got there.
You alluded in another post that the MIL is from an overfeeding type culture, so I can see why this woman might be paranoid about MIL using up all of her hard-pumped milk stash.
I've seen a lot of new parents feed their tiny newborn babies (whose stomachs are about the size of a marble) an entire 60 ml of formula. Then the kid spits an insane amount of it back up all over itself. You can absolutely feed them too much. (Though it doesn't sound like this is the case in this situation.)
Someone else mentioned this baby might have GERD. I'm glad someone brought that up b/c it sounds like it _could_ fit.

Anyway, I wonder too about an update on this situation.


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## Beccadoula (Jan 7, 2008)

Someone probably already said this, but it sounds like trauma from the birth - and it is likely very serious. But, CPS should be a last resort...is there some other way to get through to this mom how off her behavior is? She is likely totally numb...she can't feel a whole lot or she'll be deeply emotional over what happened during the birth. Can you recommend ICAN? Put her in touch with someone who can walk her through the grieving process and show her what needs to happen to bond with her baby? I have personally encountered this situation and sometimes just seeing someone else interract with the baby helps a mom wake up to how cold and distant she's acting.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Maybe you could find a way to get this link to her?

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/milkcalc.html


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

i think it's important not to conflate the multiple issues in this particular situation:

mom is giving a lot of the day to day care of her infant to other people. this is NOT wrong. it's not attachment parenting, we may not agree with it, but it's NOT wrong. i have a couple of friends (both incidentally from the same culture, although i'm not sure if that's a factor) who are perfectly happy to have their MILs, other family members, nannies and daycare workers do a lot of the daily grunt work involved in caring for an infant. they were dropping off their infants at nana's house for weekly overnight visits and going on multiple day vacations without the baby from the beginning. obviously EBFing isn't possible in those situations, but they still started off giving their infants breastmilk. now, it's not how i would do things, and i worried and judged when i saw them doing this, but they are very bonded with their children as toddlers, and i don't worry at all any more.

mom isn't touching or "bonding" with her infant. this can be a serious sign OR it can be nothing. some people have a harder time than others with the infant stage, some people might have PPD, or there might be long term emotional issues. i think that the OP might be wise to mention the PPD thing to either the mom or the husband (find a checklist of signs of PPD and give it to him), but if it's not PPD, then it's too early to judge if the mom just doesn't really like the newborn stage, isn't finding the switch from professional woman to mother very easy or something else.

the baby looks "awful." this is another really sticky one. and again, it could be serious, or it could be nothing. the friend i mentioned before, i really worried about her and her baby because the baby was a really late bloomer, and coupled with her parenting style that i didn't really agree with, i wasn't sure if they were connected. a baby might be "small", "floppy" or otherwise appear to be behind because of underfeeding and no interaction, OR that could just be the way he is. my dd definitely appeared that way as a newborn... she was 5 weeks early and coupled with her natural inclination to be petite and slower on gross motor skills, it could definitely have appeared to others that there was something "wrong" with her as a newborn. the children that i was concerned about as infants (including my own!) are now all vibrant, vivacious and very mobile toddlers. so i think it's too early to make judgments about the appearance and development of an infant especially if we aren't medical professionals.

the mom isn't feeding enough and is using a schedule. sadly, a lot of people DO use scheduling and training on their infants. there are a lot of books out there that advocate it, and i am constantly surprised at the amount of people that i consider to be loving, attached parents who admit they used some kind of training for their kids. it really shocks me, but caring for an infant can be very overwhelming, and there is a lot of bad, "old wives" advice out there on both sides (attachment AND mainstream). it's really easy to understand how people could read or hear or be told some kind of crazy advice and really take it to heart. if you heard a friend was only feeding their baby 2oz and you had no other concerns about their behavior, what would you do? you'd call them or visit them and say, "hey, i think your baby is crying because he needs more milk" and she'd say "oh, but such and such a book told me," or "my grandmother said..." and you'd say, "that's terrible advice!" and that would be that.

anyway, i think we're jumping to conclusions because the very way this woman is parenting is counter to everything we think is important, and i think that might color our judgment a little bit. the only thing that's really wrong is that the baby is only getting 2oz per feeding and is crying a lot, and *might* be underweight. if the baby has GERD, he might be screaming all the time regardless of how often he's getting fed, and the weight issues might be due to that or just DNA. just focus on finding out why she's only feeding a small amount and go from there.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Last Update. Baby was put into day care right after my last post and gained over 2 lbs in less than 2 weeks. To me, clear case of the woman starving the crap out of the poor little guy. A rare instance where the baby was way better off not being cared for by his mother. He is still behind on milestones and gets sick all the time (longest lasting upper respiratory infection imaginable), but now that hes being fed I think he will start to catch up, hoping no permanent damage was done in the first 3 months.

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby. Period.

This mother had given up breastfeeding her infant completely before 6 months. She once told me she hated it because they were meant for sex not for breastfeeding. And that breastfeeding ruined sex. So. I think that should shed some light onto where her head was.

At at party recently I was saying my four year old doesn't bother to throw fits when we are out because she knows she wont get what shes asking for if she does and she said, "i know right, its so annoying when they start to scream and embarrass you. Its like do you tell them no or just give them what they want until you get to the car." This woman has ONE BABY, he was 6 months old at the time. Shes clearly just deranged. The more I hear her talk about motherhood the more I realize how horribly damaged she must have been by her own parents to see being a mother the way she does. Like this annoying task that has to be done because her husband wanted kids.

So sad. I guess everyone doesn't have an affectionate mom  They are a cry-it-out family too, as it turns out.

Thanks for all your support and suggestions on this topic! Much appreciated. Glad we didn't have to call social services.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

oh my god. i cannot even imagine how twisted our society has become that a woman believes this is the right way to care for a baby. WHAT THE H***! Omg, it literally makes me want to scream! I cannot imagine watching this. I would have gone absolutely crazy. Why cant people TAKE A STEP BACK and use their intuition.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby. Period.


I'm not sure why you "disagree" with mom's pumping and bottle feeding. It is a huge trend I've seen. I wouldn't do it but I think this is bridging a gap for mom's who don't want to bf (or can't) but still want to give the baby breastmilk. I had to pump for my first baby for a few weeks (we syringe fed and tried to nurse) and it would have been more than enough for him. I have a huge oversupply.

I'm glad the baby is doing better. You seem really mad at this mother and I while I realize you're upset, you're getting mean about it. You have no idea what's going on in her head and how they want to run their family. I get where you're coming from but I don't think you can let it get to you so much.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

No no, I mean exclusively pumping. I.E. no breast time. I have spoken with multiple lactation consultants and LLL leaders about this issue. Everyone I spoke to said the same thing, unless you have an oversupply problem, the average mother cannot pump enough to completely bottle feed breastmilk for a newborn.

yeh, its really hard to watch. I think I am mad at her. I guess I need to let go of it. But my husband and I still feel, I dont know, upset by the whole thing.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

There are a lot of moms who EP (in fact, there are some right here on this forum) and their babies are just fine. A good friend of mine had a baby born at 28 weeks and he spent two months in the nicu, where she pumped constantly with a hospital pump and kept her supply going until the baby got to come home. After he came home, she tried to get him to latch and he never would. She saw LC's, she stopped the bottles, she did everything she could and he just wouldnt latch, and the crying at the breast stressed everyone out to the point where she decided to exclusively pump instead. He is two years old and has a brand new little sister and is still drinking breastmilk from a sippy cup and not nursing. Supply is all about how often the breasts are being drained, so it is possible to for an average mother to pump enough to be able to feed their baby, especially with a high quality pump.

While you might not agree with it, there are times when a mom has to do that and there is no point in saying its impossible to do it and have a healthy baby because that just stresses mom's out who are having a hard time.

Im glad the situation with your friend is being taken care of, and it does seem like she has some bonding issues. But, not all moms who EP have bonding issues.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I agree that exclusively pumping is not impossible as you seem to think it is... there are moms here who do it quite successfully. I think it's a disservice to them to put them in the same category as a mother who is starving her child. There are lots of different ways to feed a baby well -- and it doesn't matter what method you are using if you're starving your child.

I am glad the baby is finally getting fed but I think it's horrible that he had to wait so long because no one wanted to get involved or whatever.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

That is definitely an extra-ordinary situation. And not what Im talking about. There was clearly a medical reason for her to need to EP. Of course, that is totally fine. There will always be outliers to every rule. But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*  But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.


Can you please cite your source for this? I know that there's been a huge trend (not saying majority) towards pumping and bottle-feeding. While again, I wouldn't do it, where have you seen research on this not being enough?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

You know, the more I think about this, the more I feel like you havent really thought this through, women exclusively pumping that is. Have you thought about the fact that some women dont like the idea of having another human close to their breast because they :

a) were sexually abused
b) have issues with the body regarding weight or how their breasts look
c) have sensory issues related to the feeling of a baby being latched
d) are completely uneducated

I really dont think that women who are EPing for reasons that you dont know about/ understand are doing it because "breasts are for sex, not babies." Most women who have that kind of mentality just go ahead and formula feed their babies (at least the only two women Ive ever met with that mentality feed formula only). EPing is a LOT of work. It takes twice (at least) the amount of time that EBF does when you consider that you have to pump AND spend the time to bottle feed, along with all the time it takes to clean your breast pump, thaw milk, and keep bottles and nipples clean. Couple all that effort with a google search that results in a thread like this where someone is proclaiming that they are "underfeeding their baby" and that is a recipe for women who are busting their as* to just give up and buy formula that afternoon. It is a total PIA to EP , and most mothers are not doing because it is easier, by any means. Most women who EP have a good reason for it.

As far as you "okaying" (not that its really your place) mamas who EP for medical reasons, I would venture to say that my friend who had medical reasons is not in the minority. Most mama's who are EPing are doing all this extra work because they care that their baby get breastmilk instead of formula. I would say almost everyone who EP's either has a medical reason or one of the reasons I listed above. Either way, most moms who have to EP are sad that they cannot have the breastfeeding relationship that they want. People who just dont want a baby close to their breast are more than likely the minority here.

Personally, Im so lazy I barely ever pumped because it takes too much time to clean the tubes and I dont have to go to work, but, I have a lot of respect for women who go to all that effort so their kid can have breastmilk.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

I spoke with my own lactation consultant, who had heard of the "trend" and she asked her colleagues who agreed it would be very difficult and require constant pumping in the hours/days post birth to get a supply that could properly feed the baby without actually breastfeeding, based solely on the fact that a pump cannot get all the milk out like the baby can. So, you get less each time WHILE sending the message to your breasts that they are making too much. I also spoke with several LLL members and leaders. No one is totally against USING a bottle. But a mom who is trying to only pump and never put the baby to the breast is going to have a very hard time (unless she has over supply issues like you) making enough milk to feed a newborn. Not to mention take care of herself, and take care of the baby, etc. No one felt that promoting this as an option was a good idea, because of the risk it posed to the child for the exact reason my friend experienced.

She tried to bottle feed the baby solely by pumping as frequently as she thought the baby should eat... it didnt work. And by 6 months she said "my milk supply went down, so I just stopped." No doubt she had someone tell her some story about their friend who exclusively pumped and it was no big deal. Just like breastfeeding in general, people never say the truth about how much time is involved and new moms end up being totally overwhelmed when they realize its their whole life those first few weeks/months. Lets stop being devils advocate for a second and seriously talk about how much pumping would be involved in getting a normal new moms pumped supply to be enough without risking keeping calories from a baby whose brain is developing at such a rapid pace.

I think we are focusing way too much on the exceptions, instead of the rule. Is it physically possible, maybe. But lets be honest about the time commitment that would be involved if you want to still feed your baby as much as they need for development.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

> As far as you "okaying" (not that its really your place) mamas who EP for medical reasons, I would venture to say that my friend who had medical reasons is not in the minority. Most mama's who are EPing are *doing all this extra work* because they care that their baby get breastmilk instead of formula. I would say almost everyone who EP's either has a medical reason or one of the reasons I listed above. Either way, most moms who have to EP are sad that they cannot have the breastfeeding relationship that they want. People who just dont want a baby close to their breast are more than likely the minority here.


good lord. seriously? it feels like you are just disagreeing for fun. Im saying that I do not like the idea of promoting EP because it IS SO MUCH EXTRA WORK and no one tells moms this. And they might not realize BECAUSE THEY ARE UNEDUCATED about the subject, or have a myriad of other emotional reasons for not wanting to, that it will be very difficult and could lead to their baby not getting enough calories, just like it did with my friend. who cares the reason... bottom line is that moms should know the risks. and i dont think they do.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby. Period.


Eh, I exclusively pumped for my daughter for more than a year. She had a persistent inability to transfer milk, despite twice-weekly visits to the LC...I pumped a lot with her, setting an alarm to wake up 2x nightly, and continued when I returned to work. In my situation, my breasts adapted, I suppose --- I was able to pump 14+ oz every three or four hours; not only did I have enough for my daughter, but ended up donating to a baby in Seattle (via FedEx) and a local foster baby. It *can* be done --- there is a whole EP'ing Mamas thread here! #2, same thing, this time my preference -- I was so used to pumping, it wasn't an issue. I EBF her by pumping til 8mo, along with another local baby for 50% of his needs; only pumped 5x a day for her. There are women out there who do it, for whatever reason. Six months of breastmilk is a lot better than most babies get.

I too am glad this baby is now gaining. Thanks for the update.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> good lord. seriously? it feels like you are just disagreeing for fun. Im saying that I do not like the idea of promoting EP because it IS SO MUCH EXTRA WORK and no one tells moms this. And they might not realize BECAUSE THEY ARE UNEDUCATED about the subject, or have a myriad of other emotional reasons for not wanting to, that it will be very difficult and could lead to their baby not getting enough calories, just like it did with my friend. who cares the reason... bottom line is that moms should know the risks. and i dont think they do.


Youve missed the entire point. My point is that what YOU believe to be the exception is typically, in fact, the rule. Most moms dont EP for fun or because its easier. The fact that you are suggesting that I am promoting it makes me think you havent read any of my posts. And the fact that you capitalized "IT IS SO MUCH MORE WORK" leads me to believe that you dont think it is, which is pretty insulting to moms who have to do it.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

jesus christ. i think its so much more work that its physically not possible for most woman which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women. hahaha. ahhhhhhhh.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement.


That's just not true. There are women who exclusively pump (usually because the baby won't latch, not because of preference) and don't need to supplement. Heck, there are women who exclusively pump and have enough left over to donate.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "unacceptable"?

Edited to add: Whoops. Late here. Carry on.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> jesus christ. i think its so much more work that *its physically not possible for most woman* which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women. hahaha. ahhhhhhhh.


I just do not think this is true. I disagree with you all around about this issue.I think it is totally possible for most women. I dont think it should be promoted, but my point stands that most moms who are EPing are NOT underfeeding their children. I just think you are wrong about it.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I spoke with my own lactation consultant, who had heard of the "trend" and she asked her colleagues who agreed it would be very difficult and require constant pumping in the hours/days post birth to get a supply that could properly feed the baby without actually breastfeeding, based solely on the fact that a pump cannot get all the milk out like the baby can. So, you get less each time WHILE sending the message to your breasts that they are making too much. I also spoke with several LLL members and leaders. No one is totally against USING a bottle. But a mom who is trying to only pump and never put the baby to the breast is going to have a very hard time (unless she has over supply issues like you) making enough milk to feed a newborn. Not to mention take care of herself, and take care of the baby, etc. No one felt that promoting this as an option was a good idea, because of the risk it posed to the child for the exact reason my friend experienced.


I'm not disagreeing that it isn't the first/best choice when it is a choice. I know personally moms who have done it totally for "no reason" and it seemed like a huge pain in the ass. I think the problem is that you are making blanket statements that are getting to some people; especially moms who have exclusively pumped and did a damn fine job of it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I just do not think this is true. I disagree with you all around about this issue.I think it is totally possible for most women. I dont think it should be promoted, but my point stands that most moms who are EPing are NOT underfeeding their children. I just think you are wrong about it.


A when you (OP) make these sweeping statements about it not being possible to nourish a baby by EPing because you asked a friend who asked a friend, it's not the same as facts.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> jesus christ. i think its so much more work that its physically not possible for most woman which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women. hahaha. ahhhhhhhh.


Most women won't go through all the effort once they realize how much work it is. Most will just switch to formula. That doesn't mean it's not physically possible, just that many moms simply won't feel it's worth the effort. I also have never heard of a LLL leader downplay EP'ing as much as you are implying. Obviously it's easiest to just nurse at the breast and there are so many benefits to directly nursing baby. But it's not just one or two random women who decide to EP, there are lots of moms who do it -- sometimes just for a week or two, sometimes months, and sometimes even years. I read a post recently about a mom who EP'ed for 2 full years. I think that's AMAZING. And I don't know any LLL leader that wouldn't support that... no matter why the mother chose that method.

The problem is not that your friend chose to EP. The problem is that she didn't know (or didn't acknowledge) the normal amount & frequency of feeding. When you first started this thread, you said she was feeding the baby 12-16oz of milk a day. It doesn't matter what kind of milk that is or how it was obtained -- that's simply not enough for a baby! She needed to either pump more often & feed more often, or supplement with formula/donor milk, or switch totally to formula, or hire someone to be her baby's caretaker & do all the feeding, or whatever other choice would ensure _someone_ could feed the child as much as he required. I just don't understand why you feel the problem is that she EP'ed, when in fact the problem is that she was starving her baby, not taking care of him properly, not bonding with her baby, etc. It has nothing to do with what she chose to feed her baby -- she either had severe PPD or complete lack of knowledge about infant nutrition or followed really really bad advice or had some kind of mental issue or something. This thread really upsets me. I'm just relieved the baby is getting fed properly now.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

gotcha. okay. im not downplaying the incredibleness of mothers who have accomplished EP. Definitely not. I am constantly in awe of my working friends ability to pump constantly at work, etc. I guess my issue is that somewhere along the road my friend who was already not educated about breastfeeding, except for the it was good for babies, was really poorly educated about how often she would really need to pump to keep up a supply for a newborn. And maybe in my head I wanted to blame EP because its so incredibly difficult.

No one is being negative for moms who EP successfully, who research and are doing it knowing how hard it will be. Im just worried that people who hear about it will think its an easy option and then will end up with FTT baby. I guess thats my biggest concern. But I see there are at least 3 people on here who really believe its a totally feasible option and that my friend just didnt do it well. Cant agree more.

Here's what I mean, I was at the grocery recently with my baby and the woman checking me out said that her daughter in law was pregnant and asked if i was breastfeeding. "yes" "yeah, mine isnt sure about it. she doesnt want a baby stuck to her boobs all the time. she wants a personal life, you know. so she think she might just pump and bottle feed instead." I just say, "oh, good for her." but all i can think about it is that woman should definitely be taking that decision really seriously. And it really reminded me of my friend.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Ease up already BB. I am really glad that baby is being fed. Your totally condescending attitude regarding not only EPing but the absolute requirement that all babies get breast milk is going to prevent this woman and everyone else you try to educate from learning anything about the benefits of breastfeeding and instead focus on how unreasonable and judgemental you are.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

no no, in real life im incredibly gentle and do not "educate" in general. I just vent on here. my method of sharing is just to parent the best way I can so others can see. they can take it or leave it. but in this situation i felt like i had to do something, i couldnt just watch this baby wither away for no good reason. which is why i came here in the first place. for ideas of how to proceed.

but since then ive really become even more irritated with my friend and her comments about parenting. i dont complain to her, I come here instead!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> gotcha. okay. im not downplaying the incredibleness of mothers who have accomplished EP. Definitely not. I am constantly in awe of my working friends ability to pump constantly at work, etc. I guess my issue is that somewhere along the road my friend who was already not educated about breastfeeding, except for the it was good for babies, was really poorly educated about how often she would really need to pump to keep up a supply for a newborn. And maybe in my head I wanted to blame EP because its so incredibly difficult.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying, but the same could be true for any feeding choice. A mom who is straight-up BF'ing might not understand the frequency a baby needs to eat, and put the kiddo on a 4x/day schedule or something, which could lead to FTT. A mom who hasn't done her research might only give half of the recommended amount of formula, or try to save on formula by diluting it. And there was that news story about the vegan couple who fed their baby apple juice and soy milk... that doesn't mean that most vegan families are putting their kids in danger, you know? (Speaking as the mom of a vegan baby!) So it's not really about how someone chooses to feed their child, but whether or not they are educated about it and receiving proper advice.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated. Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com. We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.

Arent you judging me by calling me judgmental?

I have my opinion you can have yours. There is nothing unreasonable about me noticing that my friend starved her baby by trying to EP. She did. I watched it. And I suspect there are several of other women out there who think they are doing a great job and are underfeeding their babies. Not all of them, clearly no one on here because there are so many amazing EP moms, but in a less educated crowd, I'm sure there are other babies right now needlessly suffering because their mother is trying to EP without an support or help and knowing nothing about it, just because she heard of someone else who did it.

Its like no one bothers reading all the posts. If you havent been involved since the beginning, you shouldn't comment now unless you take the time to actually read every single comment. Because you're clearly out of the loop.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Thats true. I just think the risk is pretty high with pumping. Only because the pump doesnt get as much as a baby would in the same amount of time. So you end up having to pump so much more... and a new mom is much more likely to not know that then say, not be able to read a formula label. you know what i mean?


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Thats true. I just think the risk is pretty high with pumping. Only because the pump doesnt get as much as a baby would in the same amount of time. So you end up having to pump so much more... and a new mom is much more likely to not know that then say, not be able to read a formula label. you know what i mean?


Yeah, I think I see what you're getting at. I don't agree, I think people make all sorts of uneducated decisions & my gut says that most people who EP would be very educated about it due to the level of commitment it takes. But I see your point of view too. And I'm sure it's been really hard watching your friend handle motherhood like this.


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## Tear78 (Nov 28, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated. Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com.


I came to MDC out of a need for a supportive and caring community as I struggled through a personal journey to motherhood. I know that this is a place where we need to be able to disagree, but I always try to do so in a supportive and caring way. I have noticed that people are much more likely to listen to a different point of view when it is presented in a respectful manner, and when they are not given the feeling of being judged by someone who is "right" and they are "wrong." It sounds like different points of view are being successfully considered on this thread, but I am saddened by the tone of the some of the posts.







I venture that we all post because we care, so maybe it's possible to steer the thread back toward a community feel?


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> Im just worried that people who hear about it will think its an easy option and then will end up with FTT baby. I guess thats my biggest concern. But I see there are at least 3 people on here who really believe its a totally feasible option and that my friend just didnt do it well. Cant agree more.


I really do share this concern with you. I think now you understand where some of us are coming from. It rubs me the wrong way when someone says something isn't possible for "most people" when it clearly is.

I this this trend isn't great. I agree that breastmilk is better than no breastmilk but I think the trend is blooming beyond any "usual" reason for not just breastfeeding. I know a mom who EPed for twins and it didn't last long because they didn't get breast time and she couldn't keep up with the demand. I felt bad because I think they got off to a rough start and rough birth and I think she was just to wiped out to consider trying to nurse them both. Her next baby was a singleton and she nursed him for awhile.


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes! You totally get me! Thank you, thank you! OKay, phew. That was my exact worry. That lots of women, instead of trying to understand breastfeeding or get comfortable with it, will believe that they can just avoid it and EP and will end up underfeeding their babies and giving up, just like my friend did. Thats exactly my concern. No comment on the moms who are doing it because they have to. Certainly not. More power to them. I think pumping is incredibly taxing and I hated when I had to do it with my newborn because of low supply and trouble with latching. The other thing that worries me if moms dont know how hard EP is, is that they wont work on latching with their newborn and later if constant pumping becomes tiresome or they realize how much time is involved (they have to go back to work etc.) they wont be able to get the baby back to the breast with out a lot of pain and stress.


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## lunabin (Feb 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> No no, I mean exclusively pumping. I.E. no breast time. I have spoken with multiple lactation consultants and LLL leaders about this issue. Everyone I spoke to said the same thing, unless you have an oversupply problem, the average mother cannot pump enough to completely bottle feed breastmilk for a newborn.
> 
> yeh, its really hard to watch. I think I am mad at her. I guess I need to let go of it. But my husband and I still feel, I dont know, upset by the whole thing.


I'm going to completely disagree. I had HUGE cracks in both nipples, saw 3 lactation consultants (4 if you include the one in the hospital), and started exclusively pumping by 5 weeks simply because I would cry in pain at every single feeding otherwise. It took over 3months to heal and I'm left with a lot of scar tissue now anticipating DC#2. But, by 4 or 5 months old, I had over 100oz of frozen milk and was pumping a solid 35+ oz a day! It can be done, it's not impossible, and if you pump at every single feeding (at least for the first few weeks) your supply should hopefully keep up no problem.


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## lunabin (Feb 16, 2009)

Clearly this discussion has taken a mild detour... But I think we can all agree that it's great that you noticed what was obviously a problem with your friend and are all relieved to see that things have improved. I still disagree with your attitude on EPing.

For some mothers, EPing IS the easier choice. I don't think I was well educated on it at all, only because despite feverishly hunting the internet, there were virtually NO resources for it online and my lactation consultants didn't have any advice to give on it other than pump every time the baby feeds. Even kellymom.com didn't have articles up at the time... And it was very discouraging. Not because it was difficult, but because of the attitude that I've seen on here where it's generally misunderstood and judged (mostly by mother's who never did it and know nothing about it).

I was surrounded by midwives, lactation consultants, and stay at home mom's who all supported "natural" bf'ing... and they never knew what to say about it. Most just dished out unwanted and unhelpful advice, instead of support and empathy.

BenimBebek, I do feel for you. It must have been horrible (maybe still is) to see this friend make such choices. I have a coworker now who is in many ways very similar - cries it out with a 4month old, already feeds solids, etc. and because I (in many ways) disagree with her priorities, have generally distanced myself from our relationship. It's hard to witness these kinds of people, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by pretending to be supportive. And certainly, your friend seems closed to parenting advice at this point. You may want to take some emotional distance, maybe try to not talk about the kids in such depth, or just take some space.


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## AlexisT (May 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> I really do share this concern with you. I think now you understand where some of us are coming from. It rubs me the wrong way when someone says something isn't possible for "most people" when it clearly is.
> 
> I this this trend isn't great. I agree that breastmilk is better than no breastmilk but I think the trend is blooming beyond any "usual" reason for not just breastfeeding. I know a mom who EPed for twins and it didn't last long because they didn't get breast time and she couldn't keep up with the demand. I felt bad because I think they got off to a rough start and rough birth and I think she was just to wiped out to consider trying to nurse them both. Her next baby was a singleton and she nursed him for awhile.


I'm not sure it is possible for "most people"... the majority of people who start out pumping give up. The long term EPers are a minority, IME. For the record: I tried pumping for my dd when she wouldn't latch. I gave up because I got so little it didn't justify the result. I read some pumping groups and the attrition rate seemed high, though that rate may be overinflated by women like me who have multiple challenges and/or low supply. I do sometimes see people saying "You can just pump!" and it seems to me like anyone who would say that has never done it. It's a lot of dedication and in some ways, the worst of both worlds--you get the downsides of both and few of the positives, PLUS the stress of pumping. Obviously, baby gets the benefits of breastmilk, but from a logistical perspective, it's really hard and I think you need to be dedicated to manage it--not think that it's an easy way out. And the OP is right that a lot of women don't respond to the pump as well as to a baby.


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## maztec (Oct 17, 2011)

I know this is an off topic response, but as someone who helps immigrants with Immigration and Customs Enforcement issues daily I have to speak up.

Quote:


> [M]y friend the nanny literally just moved to America on a student visa just a few months ago. And is totally afraid of saying anything to anyone other than me, because she wasnt supposed to be nannying as a student visa doesnt permit "working." I tried to tell her that just a few weeks, every couple of days, for a few hours isnt working, its more like helping and that the regular police are so not interested in that. But foreigners can be very afraid!!


Student's are randomly investigated while on an F-1 visa. While very few will ever get caught working, it is possible to be caught. Getting caught has several horrible results that are not worth it: fine to the employer (including criminal charges), deportation, bans from returning to the United States, and possibly more. There is no such thing as "just a little" employment that is more like "helping". Advising your friend of this puts her at even greater risk. She has every right to be very afraid, as she has probably had the consequences drilled home to her. If she wants to work as a nanny in the U.S., she should have entered as an Au Pair J-1, not as a student F-1.

Sorry to drag this up months later, but do you really want to be responsible for your friend being removed from the United States, her education interrupted, and her ability to return severely disrupted?


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

she isnt working as an au pair. just for a few weeks to help that family who could find a day care that would take their baby. but luckily the whole thing was resolved, ironically, as a result of day care.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated. * Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com. We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.*
> 
> Arent you judging me by calling me judgmental?


Speak for yourself. I would say most women at MDC were just looking for like-minded people to share ideas with. If you came to MDC as some sort of protective club where you can judge and be condescending, then I think you've come to the wrong place. A few vocal people do it here, but its not received that kindly.

As for people calling you judgemental 1) I dont think they judged you, they were saying that the words you've been using are judgemental and 2) theres a difference between scorning other women because of their choices (that you may not know all the details of) and judging someone whos acting like a nasty asshole by name calling.


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## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

Well, anyhow - I'm glad to read this poor baby is gaining weight. Do you know if they're stepped up feeding him at home?

What I can't understand is how this baby's father just sat around scratching his butt while his child starved!! If they're still starving him at home - even if it's a "risk" to their friendship, is your husband willing to talk to this guy plainly?


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## starrlamia (Dec 28, 2010)

actually judgement isnt how humans grow, learning and being open minded are. Being judgemental denotes bias and arrogance. Having an opinion is not being judgemental, being judgemental is about looking down on others who do not share your opinion or do things you disagree with. It denotes a negativity.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated. Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com. We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.
> 
> ...


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

I think if you read the whole thread you would realize you are coming very late to the discussion and we've moved way past such comments.

But I agree with you, which is why I was not being judgmental. I was stating my opinion based off of what I witnessed. I never once said, moms who EP are bad... or anything like that. I said that I didnt think promoting it as an alternative to breastfeeding was safe, because it runs the risk of having something just like what I witnessed occurring. A first time mom who instead of learning about breastfeeding decides she will just avoid it and pump and then she will experience many of the things my friend went through.

Please, if people are going to post, READ THE WHOLE THREAD. Don't just jump in and attempt to make controversial comments. It feels less like you care about addressing the purpose of the post and more like you enjoying fighting and making inflammatory posts.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> I think if you read the whole thread you would realize you are coming very late to the discussion and we've moved way past such comments.
> 
> ...


I think you have some wrong ideas about how this process works. Just because you start a thread doesnt mean you get to have control over where it goes. I have seen you mention on multiple occasions that people need not comment unless they read the whole thread. I have seen you say OVER and OVER again to not address anything except for the purpose of the post, even though you were the one who CLEARLY started talking about EP. You dont get to start posting crappy, judgmental, inflamatory comments about groups of people and then pull the "Umm, unless youve read all the comments about and entirely different topic then you dont need to comment." Making huge generalizations about things like how people who are eping are underfeeding and how most mamas came to MDC through being judgmental is going to get you some controversial comments because what you said *is controversial.*.

Got it. Your friend was underfeeding and is all screwed up. You gave updates and it seems like things are going to be way better now. Great. BUT, there are a whole bunch of things that you have said in the process that other people dont agree with and those people (including myself) are allowed to comment on them. I can go all the way back to your very first post and say how asinine I think it is that you called her husband weak because he believes whatever she says because she has a PHD if I want to. You have no control over what other people want to say about your posts. If you dont like how the thread is going, you can PM a mod and ask for it to be removed, but you cant just keep telling people what they are/are not allowed to post in your thread. You dont make the rules of how a forum works.

You came on to a forum full of moms being judgmental. You have assumed why we are all here (because we are all judgmental). You have ordered people around and told people how and when to post on this thread. You have not addressed about half of the comments about EP and instead accused people of "being inflammatory".

Rule number one: just because you post on a forum doesnt mean you get to make the rules about how other people post.
Rule number two: Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnt mean they are picking a fight or being inflammatory. (but now I am, because Im tired of you bossing people around.)


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## BenimBebek (Jan 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Rule number one: just because you post on a forum doesnt mean you get to make the rules about how other people post.
> Rule number two: Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnt mean they are picking a fight or being inflammatory. (but now I am, because Im tired of you bossing people around.)


Thank god MDC has you to police other peoples threads for them and let everyone know what the rules are! You should be getting paid for the job you're doing.

Labeling me judgmental because of my differing opinion of the risk/benefits of EP is the height of hypocrisy.

I never judged anyone, I only ever said that I thought EPing ran the risk of underfeeding your baby, as well as numerous other potential problems.

Just because I don't start every post "IMO" like you, doesn't mean that it isn't implied.

So...

IMO... Exclusively pumping and bottle feeding a baby runs the risk of underfeeding the baby. And I don't think it should be promoted as a breastfeeding alternative because of that and the fact that should the mother tire of pumping, going back to breastfeeding could be very difficult or impossible and she may be more inclined to give up. Which will hurt her and the baby.

is that good enough for you? not sure what kind of response you wanted? just let me know so I can do exactly what you want.


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## lavatea (Aug 24, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> Thank god MDC has you to police other peoples threads for them and let everyone know what the rules are! You should be getting paid for the job you're doing.
> 
> ...


So does exclusive breastfeeding if the mother is uneducated and doesn't know to watch for hunger cues or decides to put the baby on a strict schedule. As has been stated before, ANY feeding method has the risk for underfeeding the baby if the mom doesn't get educated on the ins and outs of that particular method.

While you're not wrong about pumps being less effective than babies at emptying breasts, a true hospital grade pump will do fine if a mom is dedicated to it and pumps often enough - over supply or not. And I think a lot of the moms that would give up on pumping for being time consuming would also give up on BF'ing for the same reason. With EP'ing, you can at least hand the baby over to dad, sibling, whoever for the actual feeding. And sometimes babies BF for a lot longer at a time than you would spend pumping.

Just my 2 cents, and I have read this thread from the beginning, FWIW.


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## maztec (Oct 17, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> she isnt working as an au pair. just for a few weeks to help that family who could find a day care that would take their baby. but luckily the whole thing was resolved, ironically, as a result of day care.


I realize that. I am saying that if she wanted to come to the U.S. and work in a nanny-like position, she should have came as an au pair, not a student. However, we're not here to debate what people should and should not do as immigrants. My warning is that you should not be advising an immigrant as to what should and should not be legal. Anything that results in them receiving money in trade for an activity they do is considered work, if the immigrant is not authorized to work it is a deportable offense, can make them out of status, and can result in their not being able to return to the U.S. in the future. Helping out with the family for free is fine, but as soon as money or an exchange occurs, it is work. I realize it has been resolved, but I am wanting to make sure that you understand this for the future.


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## lunabin (Feb 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BenimBebek*
> 
> IMO... Exclusively pumping and bottle feeding a baby runs the risk of underfeeding the baby. And I don't think it should be promoted as a breastfeeding alternative because of that and the fact that should the mother tire of pumping, going back to breastfeeding could be very difficult or impossible and she may be more inclined to give up. Which will hurt her and the baby.
> 
> is that good enough for you? not sure what kind of response you wanted? just let me know so I can do exactly what you want.


I think the point of myself, and obviously other posters here - is that you seem to inadvertently come across as judgmental, harsh, or insensitive perhaps. To me, it seems that is NOT your intention, but due more so to poor phrasing and perhaps some bias in your parenting methods.

For example to say giving up bf'ing or EPing "will hurt her and the baby..." is showing a clear judgment and bias! While there are scientifically demonstrated benefits to bf'ing, they have not been clearly linked to bf'ing versus simply to breastmilk itself, so no telling if EPing provides the same benefits or not... it's not been studied. And, some women's experiences with bf'ing/EPing are SO bad, that switching to formula is physically and emotionally the better choice and may improve their situation and health.

IMO... I don't think any mother who starts off bf'ing quits unless they are finding something about it troublesome. It hopefully is a decision being made in the best interest of the child, but sometimes that includes being more convenient for mom. I accept that there are parents out there with different priorities/beliefs than myself, and I may judge them when it is at odds with my own moral compass. But, I also choose to not complain about their lives or get into their business (unless I see a child in danger), but simply do not affiliate myself with them.

Just a note about the immigrant worker thing... any exchange of services/money can be considered work. This girl had a very valid reason to worry (and hopefully she was paid in cash to cover her tracks).


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