# We've been invited to a Bris...



## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

We've been invited to Bris by my husband's boss. I don't really feel comfortable going. We did not circumcise any of our sons and my husband is uncut as well. If we did go, what should we expect? I am not familiar with any of this so I need your help with what to do and how to handle it. My husband says that it is not that big of a deal and it is a long religious tradition. I am the one squirming at the idea. Sorry, now I am rambling. I just need some advice.


----------



## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Since DH is okay with it, send him








I personally couldn't go...


----------



## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I agree with Stevie, send DH if he is OK with it. I could not go. I just couldn't.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
I agree with Stevie, send DH if he is OK with it. I could not go. I just couldn't.

Ditto.


----------



## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

same here. I couldn't watch that. Especially since it's dh's boss, I'd probably end up getting dh in trouble because I wouldn't be able to handle it. It's bad enough just knowing that this happens, but to be there while it's happening is too much for me.


----------



## Mama2E&O (Sep 7, 2004)

I know it is a religious custom but I still would not go and watch. It would break my heart.


----------



## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

hi, burke-a-bee

yeah, your hubby could attend, and send your regards. Unless you're friendly with the boss's family, that is. Then I'd probably try to make an effort to attend. It's not an easy thing to be around--I empathize with you.

Speaking as one who has been to quite a few brisim, you could do what I do...eat the lox and bagels, make an appearance, give well wishes, mazal tov to the mother, hang out for the Hebrew prayers (there are lots) then step out of the building at the appropriate time if you need to. But it may not be as awful as you're expecting. Some babies hardly make a peep, and others, well, they do cry mightily. The trained hands of a _Mohel_ (who may do several _brisim_ per day) are much more skilled than most doctors. They apprentice with an older mohel for years. The actual preparation and slicing of the foreskin takes less than a minute, and the baby usually calms down in another 3 or 4 minutes.

It may not sound like it, but I'm conflicted about this, too. I'm speaking as someone raised AP, brother is uncut, etc. When I converted to Judaism (orthodox) I had to come to terms with the idea that circumcism, for Jews is a very special thing (I would never want a non-Jewish baby boy to have to be circumcised, of course). Even if most people on MDC don't believe this, to the Jews, the _bris_ is a meaningful and important _mitzvah_ (commandment) that they need to fulfill to be in keeping with Jewish tradition and Jewish law. It's the physical sign of the covenant between G-d and the Jews. Jewish men are reminded, their whole lives, that their whole selves, indeed their most private parts are consecrated to G-d: to goodness, procreation and to love (not to selfishness, or rape, or perversions or even to pure lust). Sorry to have expanded the topic a bit (a lot...) but I hope it's helpful to try to think of it from this point of view.


----------



## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lioralourie*
The trained hands of a _Mohel_ (who may do several _brisim_ per day) are much more skilled than most doctors.

And from what I gather, the circumcision they do during a Bris is much different from a medical circumcision. I don't think they remove the whole foreskin, but just sort of cut a small piece out of it? I'm not 100%, though.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

I can understand your internal conflict about this. You are strongly against circumcision but you also feel you must support your husband's career and maybe even feel some obligation to the boss if you know him well.

However, consider if the boss's daughter was having her genitals stripped and cut away, how would you feel and how would you react? I'm sure the same reaction would be detrimental to your husband's career and offensive to the boss. You should not compromise your ethics when the only difference is the sex of the victim. The best way to handle this is to just decline to attend. If your husband is not bothered by this or if he wants/feels he needs to attend, let him go. It may turn him into a rabid intactivist! :LOL

I have a Jewish woman friend who will not attend bris's. She has been to two and absolutely refuses to attend any more and she is not even an intactivist. I suspect she is not even aware of all of the controversy about this issue. She has a daughter who may bring this problem home. She is dating an Asian man and it appears they will eventually be married so it's a toss-up whose traditions will prevail but I have no doubt "M" will not be there should there be a bris. She gets a sour look on her face and kind of scrunches up her shoulders and a little shake every time the subject comes up.

If you don't want to go, just send your regrets with no other explanation. That's all that is required.

Frank


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles*
And from what I gather, the circumcision they do during a Bris is much different from a medical circumcision. I don't think they remove the whole foreskin, but just sort of cut a small piece out of it? I'm not 100%, though.


They do remove the entire foreskin. As much is removed as possible and in fact, more is removed than in many hospital circumcisions. There have been so many problems in adult men due to their hospital circumcisions that many in the medical profession have started doing loose circumcisions in an effort to prevent those problems. In reality, all they have done is trade one set of problems for another whole set of different problems.

There is some historical evidence that at one time, the only part that was cut away was the part that extended beyond the tip of the glans so there was no separation of the foreskin and glans. There is also evidence that this practice was ended about 800 AD and replaced with the more aggressive style of complete removal including stripping away the foreskin and removal of the frenulum. I won't speculate whether those stories are true or not. However, there is very little difference in a hospital circumcision and a bris as far as how it is technically performed and the end results.

Frank


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You don't have to watch, and you don't have to go for the ceremony. You can go for the party. I've been to a few brit malah ceremonies and they can be pretty powerful. Many times the baby is held in the lap by the godfather or grandfather etc. Its not a naked baby being strapped down as it screams it's little head off. Usually there are other women gathered around the mother, as it can be difficult for some moms. Some babies cry, some don't. The cutting itself is very fast. I agree with whoever posted that you can step out, or even come later.

But ok, if you can't you can't. A lot of people have a difficult time, even those who embrace the tradition. However, send good wishes and maybe a gift to welcome the baby. If your dh goes alone, I would hope he would say why you aren't, yk? (I'm sure he wouldn't but just throwing that out). It's a special day for them. My boys are not circ'd but some of the most loving AP parents I know have had a Bris for their sons.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

frank, I know you are the king of circ questions,a nd I do appreciate that. But it's not true (not that it matters) that 'more is cut than in the hospital'. It just depends.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No way would I go.


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Not even if I was being chased by rabid dogs could you get me anywhere near that household. There is nothing "beautiful" to me about causing babies pain or harming them in this way. IMHO cutting the genitals of a baby is just wrong, no matter how you try to justify it.

Of course, it depends on how *you* feel about it whether you attend or not. Noone else can tell you how to feel, just consider your own convictions about it. Myself, I would feel hypocritical if I went based on my very strong feelings about cutting babies genitals.

Take care,
Tara


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh gosh, I coudln't go. I just couldn't "be invited" to see an innocent child suffer.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?

I'm not going to support someone that is hurting an innocent child and cutting off part of his penis. Anyone that does this is not worthy of my support. If I am present, I am saying that what she is doing to her child is ok. IMO it is not, and I will not witness a child screaming and agonizing because of this.


----------



## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I have both jewish and moslim friends(some of them are against circ, some are not).

For me there are two things involved.
1) I view any genital cutting of children as a violation of human rights. It doesn't matter if it is done by American doctor, religious person or mister X
2) I know that religious circumcision is a ceremony taken very seriously by those who believe in it. So I would also stay away out of respect. I know I would start to cry because of what is done to the baby and that would not be very respectful for those who believe in it.


----------



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I'm not going to support someone that is hurting an innocent child and cutting off part of his penis. Anyone that does this is not worthy of my support. If I am present, I am saying that what she is doing to her child is ok. IMO it is not, and I will not witness a child screaming and agonizing because of this.


----------



## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Hmm, I wonder if this thread is crossing the line already, but I just have to wonder... if religion is an appropriate reason to harm a little baby by cutting his penis, is it also an appropriate reason to do other violent things to other humans?







:


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I wouldn't go at all.
Even if you only go to the party you are supporting circumcision. I understand its something important to Jewish people but to the rest of us it doesn't carry that significance.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I would not go. I wouldn't go to a rite where female circ is performed, so I don't see how it is any different.


----------



## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

i was recently invited to a bris for a good friend's new son. i told her i was sorry but just didn't feel comfortable attending. I didn't elaborate, and i know she was disappointed but i couldn't do it. to me it would be like condoning it, and showing up late as she suggesed to miss the actual cutting, i would still be participating in the celebration of a ritual i see as a blood sacrifice (which in my mind makes it worse than those parents who circ out of misinformation: at least they believe they are doing the best for their son)

good luck


----------



## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

I just got into this very argument on a debate site and I got absolutely pounced on when I said I would`t attend a female circ ceremnoy either. I hate circumcision for any reason, especially on a child. If it was a 40 year old who had studied hard and wanted a bris, then I`m happy for him but I still don`t want to see a penis getting cut.

Frank, I read a book called "Circumcision, a history of the world`s oldest surgery" I may be totally wrong on the title. Anyway, it talks about how the original Jewish circ (like in Jesus time and before) was a very small piece of skin. Then jump ahead a few hundred years and Jews wanted to be in the Olympics in Greece. (The Olympics were performed buck naked )The Greeks thought even a small circ was obscene, they considered intact penises covered up & more demure, if you will. So many Jewish men were pulling down what was left and weighting it so they would look intact and compete. The rabbis got wind of this and were mad that they were trying to pass as Gentiles so they made it mandatory to have the radical complete foreskin removal that you see today.

I hope I didn`t offend anyone, this is just what is in the book.


----------



## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I would not go.


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?

I have Jewish friends and they understand my feelings about the circumcision of babies so they have simply never expected me to come to a Birs. I have been to one naming ceremony though of a baby girl and that couple would have the same type of ceremony if they are blessed with a son(one without cutting) and I would of course both support them in that and attend that function.

Tara


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Don't go. You don't agree with it. You shouldn't have to watch it or be uncomfortable or fake happiness for them on that day. Of course you are happy for the birth of their baby - I assume you sent a nice card and/or gift already?

Your dh can make his own decision on his attendance. If I knew them well, I would say I can't attend as I'm not comfortable with it. If I didn't, then I would just decline without comment.

On the side discussion re: can you have Jewish friends if you don't believe in circ - well, of course! Why not? I have many friends who vary in many different ways. Thinking we will agree on each and every issue - and refusing friendships if not - well, that doesn't make sense to me. I think I can be a good friend - and be true to myself - and still not attend a friend's son's bris. I can appreciate that it is important and necessary in their eyes - but they also need to appreciate that I have a different view. As long as we are all respectful and try to understand the other viewpoint, we are ok.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
frank, I know you are the king of circ questions,a nd I do appreciate that. But it's not true (not that it matters) that 'more is cut than in the hospital'. It just depends.


The bris procedure calls for the complete baring of the glans so most (almost all) of the mucosal foreskin is cut away. In hospital procedures, there is the old style and the new style. (both still practiced) In the old style, the objective was to take off enough that the remaining skin would be stretched taught on erection. This is the same as the bris method that has been practiced for about the last 1,200 years. In the new style, often the final result looks like a circumcision hasn't even been done to the untrained eye. I've seen many Moms post about their dissatisfaction with this on other boards and there were even some that have had their sons circumcised the second time to get that tight look they wanted. I know of one that is trying to get it done a third time in her pursuit for what she thinks is perfection. (poor baby!)

So, yes, an equal amount is cut in the old style and the bris but compared to the new style hospital circumcision, the bris is more severe.

Frank


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I stand by my 'It just depends', because it does just depend. On the family, the mohel etc. etc. etc Not that it matters.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?


I have Jewish friends and I'm not going to end the friendship about this but a pack of rabid dogs couldn't chase me to a bris. I'd just have to become a mean mother of all pit bulls and stand them off.

I have a cousin that is addicted to drugs and apparently he feels they are important because he has gone to jail several times about them but I'm not going to go over and share them with him.

Frank


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liseux*
Frank, I read a book called "Circumcision, a history of the world`s oldest surgery"


I haven't read the book but I have read excerpts from it that is as you say. I have also read several other theories on it that also make some sense but to get into it would require getting pretty deeply into religion and of course, we can't do that here. If you would like some brief details, PM me.

Frank


----------



## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?

It has nothing to do with Jews or Jewish friends.

I personally would never, ever go to a "baby-genitals-cutting" party, no matter whether held for a specific religious purpose or not. I also would NOT go with a friend who was having their baby's ears pierced.

I am not going to support mutilation of nonconsenting childrens bodies, NO MATTER THE REASON IT'S DONE.

Way to try and make the thread into anti-semitism though.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Don't go. You don't agree with it. You shouldn't have to watch it or be uncomfortable or fake happiness for them on that day. Of course you are happy for the birth of their baby - I assume you sent a nice card and/or gift already?

On the side discussion re: can you have Jewish friends if you don't believe in circ - well, of course! Why not? I have many friends who vary in many different ways. Thinking we will agree on each and every issue - and refusing friendships if not - well, that doesn't make sense to me. I think I can be a good friend - and be true to myself - and still not attend a friend's son's bris. I can appreciate that it is important and necessary in their eyes - but they also need to appreciate that I have a different view. As long as we are all respectful and try to understand the other viewpoint, we are ok.

I totally agree with this. Thanks for putting it so well!

I also agree with Emily - I am sad that there has been an attempt to turn this into an anti-semitic issue when it is NOT.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.


I wouldn't just bring it up but if I were pushed, I would tell them that I just don't agree with circumcision from an ethical standpoint and try to leave it at that. However, if I were pushed, I would give them a respectful description of why I don't think it is ethical to the degree that they wanted to discuss it. From experience, I've found that most people who want to circumcise really want to end the discussion very early so it's not a problem.

I did get into this discussion very lightly with a Jewish friend. My ex-GF actually brought it up thinking she would change my mind about the issue. She mentioned it to the Jewish friend who said she had witnessed two bris's and would never go to another and that it was a decisive reason that she had left Judiasm and started attending a non-denominational church. We had a very short discussion since we were on the same page. Ex-GF sat there with her mouth hanging open. Not what she expected! The snake she brought to the party turned around and bit her.

Frank


----------



## gothmommy (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liseux*
I just got into this very argument on a debate site and I got absolutely pounced on when I said I would`t attend a female circ ceremnoy either. I hate circumcision for any reason, especially on a child. If it was a 40 year old who had studied hard and wanted a bris, then I`m happy for him but I still don`t want to see a penis getting cut.

Interesting point. I would participate in the celebration of an ADULT making an informed choice to have a circumcision (like you, I wouldn't really care to watch it though, lol!), male OR female. Now, that might sound absolutely NUTTY but I have known a woman who CHOSE of her own free will to have a ritualistic removal of her clitoral hood not related to religion, but related to her own personal choices...she was very heavy into the body modification culture and chose that as an expression of herself. She did have a small celebration type thing and then quietly excused herself and her attendants to go have it done. It was something very special to her.


----------



## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

I would have no problem declining the invite.

Same answer if someone invited me to a circumcision for their daughter.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

momma4, some people here *are* jewish & didn't cease being so because they are intactivists. do you think we don't go visit grandma because she is disappointed about no bris?

your sarcasm seems more disrespectful than any hyperbole about rabid dogs, and implicates people (whose only concern is protecting babies) of anti-semitism. it's an old tactic; we see it every so often here. doesn't work so well on actual jews, though.

suse


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Suse- while you might not like that I asked to have hyperbole clarified, I have every right to ask.

You might also think I asked the question in sarcasm, but you would be incorrect. I asked as I straightforward as I could, given the comment was about about rabid dogs. There were no little emoticons in my post-- just a totally straightforward question.

You might further think I was bringing anti-semitism into this, but that would also be a wrong assumption. I plain was not. Was I concerend that people might not be sensitive in rejecting an invitation? Yes. I can't know that would offend you or others, Jewish or not. Your commentary about whether you visit grandma as a Jewish family is one I didn't ask (??) so I am not sure where that fits in with my particular question. Lots of intactivists are Jews.

Whatever your history is in dealing with people focusing on anti-semitism in the anti- circ movement has nothing to do with me or my questions regadring hyperbolic postings. Because others don't appreciate a particular question, doesn't mean it cannot be posed.


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.

It depends on the friend. I am a highly sarcastic and very emotional person. Very strong in my convictions. Some friends of mine know it is in my nature to be on the dramatic side and truely would not take offence to me saying something like that. Others however might so I guess the tactic would vary from person to person.

This forum however is a safe place for me to spout off about circumcision with all the pasion that I feel this issue deserves. If that means using a colourful description to illustrate my feelings about it then it might come out that way, depending on my level of emotion that day. I mean no disrespect to *people*, only disrespect for the *act* itself.

And to bring the question of respect into an issue that I find to be the utmost breech of respect is just hypocritical IMO.

Take care,
Tara


----------



## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

Nope, there's no chance in hell of me going to a Bris, unless it was a Bris Shalom, where there isn't any genital cutting.

I'm so sorry for that poor baby


----------



## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

A friend of ours invited DH (Jewish) & me. They knew how I felt. But it was a special occassion to them and wanted us there.








I didn't go. No way in heck. They understood and were fine with it.

DH went.







Fine by me.

As far as them needing "me" to be there supporting them, tish tosh... they had 10-20 people there already doing that.

If it was my best friend or sister, nope, not going. To turn it into a whiney "you aren't supporting me" thing is a manipulation.

If I were the OP, I would not attend. DH could still go alone if he wanted to. Hopefully DH's attendance (or lack of) won't affect his employment.


----------



## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I'm not going to support someone that is hurting an innocent child and cutting off part of his penis. Anyone that does this is not worthy of my support. If I am present, I am saying that what she is doing to her child is ok. IMO it is not, and I will not witness a child screaming and agonizing because of this.

Ditto this. And I am technically Jewish, but am pagan/Xtian scientist by choice.

I would never attend a bris. Ever. IMO it's cruel, and honestly I wouldn't associate with people who think it's okay to mutilate a child.

Kristi


----------



## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma4*
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.

I absolutely would say this. Not necessarily the rabid dogs part, but I would make my opinion on circ totally clear. I'd probably say something along the lines of "I will not attend the genital mutilation of a child, and I'm horrified that you are doing that"

Kristi


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *callumsmom2001*
Not even if I was being chased by rabid dogs could you get me anywhere near that household. There is nothing "beautiful" to me about causing babies pain or harming them in this way. IMHO cutting the genitals of a baby is just wrong, no matter how you try to justify it.


Ditto!


----------



## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

I would definately DECLINE the invite and I would not feel the least bit guilty in doing so. It has nothing to do with anyone's religion, it has to do with the fact that by attending I would be supporting the harm of the baby boy. I would also not drive a friend (of any religion) to the dr or go to support a parent of a baby undergoing a circ, EVER.


----------



## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Well just to wrap this up..we did not go to the Bris. My husband was suggesting that we go afterwards, etc. He honestly thought it happended at a church and that we could skip that part and go to the house for the "reception". He cracks me up. I had to give him a breakdown of the little info that I knew. I had finally told him I wasn't going and neither were the children. I told him that he could go if he wanted to. When his "boss" called to tell him about a future job, my husband asked if the Bris was that evening (yeah we waited to the last minute). Well, I guess we had missed it. They had originally scheduled it for that evening but had moved it. At her last OB appointment the doctor told her that her baby was too big to have vaginally so they scheduled a C-section a week before her due date. Therefore they moved the Bris date up by a week but didn't tell some friends. Very strange situation. (By the way, her baby was 7lbs.)
Thanks for all of your input. I really knew that I didn't want to go but needed a little nudge. Thanks.
Really hot topic!


----------



## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
...At her last OB appointment the doctor told her that her baby was too big to have vaginally so they scheduled a C-section a week before her due date. ... . (By the way, her baby was 7lbs.)...

GRR> Stupid OBs. I thought everyone knew they can't accurately predict the weight.







: Lucky for them they did not try that with me and my 9.5 lb naturally birthed babe.


----------



## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

My first was 9lbs 1 oz and third was 8lbs 14oz. I was so upset when my husband said that her baby was 7lbs.


----------



## Teresa (Jan 25, 2002)

I realize that I'm coming to this late and it's done-and-over now, but the correct, polite thing to do is simply send your regrets.
"Dear John, We will not be able to accept your invitation to the Bris. We hope to see you soon, Jack & Jill."
It is rude to ask someone why they have declined an invitation, but if really pressed one could say, "We aren't comfortable with the practice of circumcision" and leave it at that.

I don't think anyone would make outrageous 'rabid dog' comments to anyone but the closest of friends/family who already knew how they felt.
Readers should bear in mind that this is 'The Case Against Circumcision' and one could hardly expect posters to pretend to be neutral on the topic!


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ofcourse, I agree with teresa, and I think that is a very polite way to decline!!!


----------

