# Ds dumped over laundry on purpose



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

This happens often in my house, and I dont know how to deal with it because it really makes me mad/sad/feel helpless.

Laundry is a really tough subject in my home-I am not very good at staying on top of that chore. So when I finally start to get caught up and have 2 full baskets of clean clothes in my living room, (THANK GOD it wasnt folded yet or I might have killed ds-age 4) but last night when we were hanging out before bedtime, my ds laughed, looked at me, and pulled the baskets down and dumped them over.







:

It made me and dh so mad (because it was so disprespectful!) that dh escorted ds immedietly to bed. It was completley mean spirited. (He has done it before-which is one reason I am scared to fold laundry)

What would you do?!?! I should have made him pick it up but I was way too mad-I would have possibly lost my temper really bad-it was a looooong day.

??????????????????

Jenny


----------



## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

:

We all have somthing that triggers our anger, I think.

What I would do... I hope I would have stayed calm. I hope I would have been able to see that my child, at age 4, is just a little boy. That he was trying to get attention, to make me react in some way and/or that he was trying to see what happened when he did that.

I hope I would have told him that to see the laundry dumped on the floor made me angry (if it infact made me angry). That I expected him to help picking it up.

But being human, I can`t garantee you that I would have been calm all the time. But I would try, and do my best.







:


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I did have him pick it up first thing this morning, he said he didnt want to-and we had to fight about it because he refused. (I am pretty sure, knowing my little boy, it would have been the same scenario or worse last night.)


----------



## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

He knows it gets your goat so he does it.


----------



## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Please forgive me if I am missing something here, but what is the big deal? And how is it mean spirited? I could understand you getting frustrated if all the laundry was folded, but you said it wasn't. I guess I just don't understand you and your partner's anger about it. The clothes were still clean and it takes very little time to pick it all up, right?


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Natural Mommy*J* 
Please forgive me if I am missing something here, but what is the big deal? And how is it mean spirited? I could understand you getting frustrated if all the laundry was folded, but you said it wasn't. I guess I just don't understand you and your partner's anger about it. The clothes were still clean and it takes very little time to pick it all up, right?









: I could see you getting a little annoyed if it was folded...but it wasn't. Even if it was he is 4...my ds 2.5 went through a brief stage a couple of months ago of dumping laundry out, my solution...get it put away. He gave me incentive to get the laundry done completely.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

This is a daily occurance at our house. And she only does it AFTER it's folded.







Eh, it doesn't bother me much. I would say he is definately picking up on your frustration and knows it gets to you. I wouldn't make it such a big deal. Easier said than done, I know.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I do think children can do this sort of thing in an intentional, mean way. I don't think the response is as simple as assuming only good intent, or not showing that we are bothered so they don't think they can get us by doing this stuff.

It's not okay and I would have told the child as much. I also agree with the OP getting him to pick it all back up in the morning.

It wouldn't be a big deal to me probably, but it is to the OP and that is fair enough. The child needs to do what they can do to make things right, IMO.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Why wouldnt it make me mad that my clean laundry is now on the floor? You wouldnt get mad? He looks at me, dumps it and laughs because he knows I am mad. It would be like me going up to dh, taking his soda, and dumping it out. That would piss me off!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Why wouldnt it make me mad that my clean laundry is now on the floor? You wouldnt get mad? He looks at me, dumps it and laughs because he knows I am mad. It would be like me going up to dh, taking his soda, and dumping it out. That would piss me off!

Well I am so careless that I would still consider it clean.







That's why I wouldn't care.

But you do care, and that is perfectly valid. I may care about something else you wouldn't mind a bit. Fact remains he knew what he was doing, and did it to get to you. That has to be addressed, IMO. Getting him to pick it all back up, after telling him how much it sucks that he did that, is exactly what I would do.

Kids pull this kind of thing, it's normal. But it's also normal for parents to get to have an *honest* (although still respectful, of course) reaction, and for the child to be made to do something to put things right again.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I wouldn't have saved it for him to pick up in the morning. I would have put it away immediately so it couldn't be knocked over again. But that's more of a "household organization tip" than a discipline issue. Toys dumped onto the floor I would leave for the child to deal with in the morning because I'm not so invested in having the toys washed, folded, and put away promptly.









There are two separate things going on here:

1) the OP and her feelings about the laundry (which can be helped by different household routines, etc)

and

2) The child being intentionally disrespectful in a deliberate attempt to anger his mother.

Children DO need to learn that certain behavior is completely unnacceptable. It might be age appropriate behavior, and understanding that can help keep your emotions under control when dealing with the child, but children still need to learn household rules and how to respect other people's feelings.

Some parents are so invested in being gentle that they forget to discipline! A 4yo needs to understand that his behaviors DO affect other people. He needs to learn that it's OK to be angry but it's not OK to hurt other people's bodies or feelings or break things when he's angry. He needs to learn that messing up people's stuff hurts their feelings.

I think it's good for kids to understand that Mom and Dad will react differently to accidents than to intentional messes. It's OK for kids to see their parents get angry- I don't think it's healthy for kids to think their parents are emotionless robots.

You'd be doing your child a great disservice to smile and say "that's OK sweetie, I'll pick that up now."


----------



## Danaoc (Jul 11, 2005)

It's perturbing to hear the view that kids are "intentionally" mean-spirited. I prefer to see it as intentionally testing. He probably wanted to see...how will Mom feel about this? How will she react? Will she get mad? Or will she teach me what she prefers me to do? And then snuggle with me to let me know that no matter what I do she still loves me?


----------



## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

:

We all have our little things that get us irritated, I do understand that. I guess what was bothering me about your post was the fact that he's only 4 and you and your partner were angry enough about it to immediately send him to his room to go to bed. But I probably feel like that because to me the situation wouldn't be that big of a deal. To you it is. Fair enough.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well I am so careless that I would still consider it clean.







That's why I wouldn't care.

Yeah, I would consider them clean too unless my floor was insanely dirty. I have all carpet though, so I wouldn't have that problem.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danaoc* 
It's perturbing to hear the view that kids are "intentionally" mean-spirited. I prefer to see it as intentionally testing. He probably wanted to see...how will Mom feel about this? How will she react? Will she get mad? Or will she teach me what she prefers me to do? And then snuggle with me to let me know that no matter what I do she still loves me?

Okay. Intentionally mean spirited, or intentionally testing. Either is true for me. I think it is true that some behaviours *are* very much mean spirited, AND they are about testing what the adult response will be.

However, I don't think the automatic response is to "not get mad," and simply teach the child what we prefer them to do, and then snuggle with them. They *know* what we prefer them to do, and are doing the opposite. That is the whole point of the behaviour.

I think the key is to communicate anger and/or upset respectfully but genuinely, direct the child in how to make it right, and let them know they are still loved regardless of their behaviour.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

It wasnt the cleaanest part of the floor (and our entire house is tile) but I am trying to put myself in the perspective of not caring if ds dumped out the laundry....having a hard time getting there.....could be a control issue. ??

I always feel like i am drowning in housework so thats part of it-I cant keep motivated to do dishes and laundry and cleaning all day long and I wish the house was cleaner. (Or I wish we at least had clean clothes to wear that we could find) I am trying to get better but totally tired and want to sleep all day.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

My 3.5 year old definitely can be mean-spirited. Not testing, but mean. She's not mean-spirited as a person but she has her moments. Kids are human.


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't think anyone was arguing that it isn't annoying...I just have a hard time grasping that a 4 year old is mean spirited and did it just to anger his parents. If my ds does it I just have him help me put it back, its fun for us, its not something that I think he is doing to be mean...its fun for them, kind of like playing with silks, KWIM? Do we need to express to them that you don't want them to do that, sure, but try to remember that he is young and I don't believe that at 4 he is being "mean".


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I don't think anyone was arguing that it isn't annoying...I just have a hard time grasping that a 4 year old is mean spirited and did it just to anger his parents. If my ds does it I just have him help me put it back, its fun for us, its not something that I think he is doing to be mean...its fun for them, kind of like playing with silks, KWIM? Do we need to express to them that you don't want them to do that, sure, but try to remember that he is young and I don't believe that at 4 he is being "mean".









Well, I disagree. I think 4 year old children can and do figure out what things may trigger parents, and they do those things, not for the fun of exploration, but for the express purpose of doing something contrary to the parent's wishes, something that will cause an emotional response in the parent.

I see a lot of children who do this, it is obvious from the glint in the eye and the lack of remorse upon seeing an upset adult. I also see parents who can't imagine their little darlings are doing said behaviour with intention to antagonize. And so the children continue on. A few of my daughter's friends, ages 4, 5, and 6, are really horrid to be around right now because parents are not addressing the fact that their more out of control behaviours are done with intention to create a rise.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

but do you reward them with positive attention ie: snuggling and telling them you still love them when they do something to get attention? (Not in my house-I do not reward negative behavior)

Usually when my ds does attention getting stuff like say words I dont like, I ignore him.

If I had ignored this though, he would have continued throwing the laundry around until i got mad.

I should have totally had him clean it up last night but considering my temper yesterday and the fact that I probably would have resorted to grabbing him or spanking him, it was definatly the best decision. (Since mommy has a hard time controlling herself too!)

Dh could see the "I'm so done" look in my eyes the second he got home, so he instantly rescued me-at the expense of ds. I do my best but sometimes family members have to "do what they gotta do" and sometimes its at someone elses expense. not ideal, but life isnt perfect. I hope my ds could see that that wasnt the right choice to make because it was at Mommys expense that he was going to get attention. (its not ok for me and its not ok for him)

He pretty much knows I love him all the time. I remind him that I love him for who he is-and I love him when he makes bad choices, good choices, and all the time. My actions screw up sometimes....but I hope I can forgive myself and teach him that its ok to screw up sometimes.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
but do you reward them with positive attention ie: snuggling and telling them you still love them when they do something to get attention? (Not in my house-I do not reward negative behavior)

I tell my child no, and why the behaviour is not okay. "Mama worked hard to clean those clothes and you know that. You are undoing my hard work and that is not okay. You need to do xyz to get things back to the way you found them."

My child would usually burst into tears at this point, and I find any anger I feel pretty much dissipates. I hug her, explain in a loving but still serious tone that that mama is frustrated because







, and I would direct/help her to put the clothing away.

If it were a repetitive situation, or one where she did not show any remorse or upset at knowing I was angry about what she had done, I would probably continue to communicate my anger and/or distance myself from her. I'm not going to wrap a child in my arms who is gleeful at destroying something I've worked hard on. That would not be a genuine response. If asked, of course I would tell them I still love them. But it wouldn't be touchy-feely time at my house if my child was not interested in putting something right that they had done intentionally.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't consider love and affection a "reward". I consider it a birthright.

I say this respectfully.... if you know this is a place where your child isn't displaying the best of inpulse control (it has happened before) -- then put the laundry away before it gets dumped. Even if you didn't put it completely away, put the baskets on the top shelf of the closet or something.

What is happening here in my opinion is that you are setting up a situation where you know your child has displayed poor impulse control and then acting suprised and upset when he behaves exactly as he has in the past.

I see that you expect a four year old to have the self discipline to stay away from laundry, and yet you don't have the self discipline to put it away before he gets to it so what's the deal? I know on the 'net that comes across as a really snarky statement and I am not saying it in that spirit -- I am saying it because you need to give yourself and your kid a break (imo).

It's just laundry -- so the real issue is you don't feel respected. Then DON'T make it about the laundry, make it about everyone in the family respecting eachother and choosing to help eachother meet eachother's needs. Give him tools -- have you said to him "If you want mama's attention all you have to do is say 'mama, I want attention' " ? then ... give him attention. Sometimes that is all it takes. When he is certain that his needs will be met without acting out in a way that gets negative attention perhaps these instances will be fewer.

What would have happened if he turned over the laundry, you laughed and had a sock fight and then said "hey buddy, let's see how many you can toss in from the other side of the room" -- the laundry would have gotten picked up and you would have had a moment of connection with your child instead of a moment of adversity.

Just a few things to consider... good luck.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

See, and I think that as the person who DOES the laundry, it is my prerogative whether I get it all folded and put away. A four year old is plenty big enough to know better than to dump it on the floor. I don't think this behaviour is about impulse control, as the OP describes it, but about testing for parental responses to deliberately antagonistic actions. I think you can tell the difference by the degree of delight the child demonstrates.

If it is about testing, than if you go out of your way to conceal the laundry, the child will choose something else. And then will that thing be mama's fault too?

Children are not faberge eggs. We need to treat them with respect, but it is also okay to expect them to treat us with the same.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Laundry is a really tough subject in my home-I am not very good at staying on top of that chore.

And the OP gets a big AWWWW... which hey, I do feel for her, honestly. However, I feel for the four year old too:

"Getting punished when I act like a typical four year old is a tough subject in my home."

So...... the OP is "not very good at staying on top of laundry" ... fair enough...

The four year old is not "very good" at staying on top of parental expectations of his self control level....

So... put the baskets away. Simple solution imo. I don't mean OP should be putting all the clothing away at that moment but how can a four year old be expected to have the self discipline to stay out of the laundry when mama chooses not to take 30 seconds to put it out of reach?

Seems sort of like a do as I say not as I do situation here which I am not a fan of.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 

"Getting punished when I act like a typical four year old is a tough subject in my home."

I'm not advocating punishment. I'm advocating having the child put the situation right, if you want to call that punishment, that is up to you. I'm advocating expressing feelings honestly and respectfully, and not assuming a child is NEVER intending a behaviour specifically to get a rise.

Quote:

So... put the baskets away. Simple solution imo.
Easier said than done, in my world. And if it's not the laundry, it will be something else, if the root issue is that the child is seeking a way to test parental responses by deliberately behaving in ways that create some level of havoc.

I really dislike when all children's behaviours are labelled as innocent, and the parent is always responsible. I don't think it does the child any favours, or the parent.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Innocent or not innocent has nothing to do with it from where I stand. It is extremely logical to me - parent said she was "hanging out" in the living room. There was 10 seconds to put the laundry in a closet and close the door (the baskets). It isn't about dissecting who is "most at fault" or not or whatever. It is about a solution that would have avoided this whole post.

It is my opinion that OP is really saying she wants ways to show ds that she and her partner are boss and brainstorm ways that they can enforce that for behaviors of ds that they find "bad". Now, sending a kid to bed because he turned over a laundry basket of UNfolded (or even folded) clothes is not only punishment, it is not a logical or natural consequence and I believe most people on this board would agree.

Now it comes down to, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? I mean, if taking 30 seconds to put the laundry away in the basket (not putting it completely away) would have avoided the whole thing, why not??

... and if you know that this is a situation that occured before, to me it seems like it was intentionally setting up a situation for your child to "fail" and well... that seems mean spirited to me so back to the do as I say not as I do point I made before. I prefer to put my energy into situations where everyone can succeed.

It isn't about "they are innocent and I am totally responsible" I don't even think in that matrix. It is more about how can I do my part to create a situation where I am modeling my willingness to participate in and help facilitate situations where we ALL succeed as a family -- rather than, well... dd knows better so I will set up a situation where she has struggled before and expect that she won't struggle again then punish her if she does (struggle again).


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Innocent or not innocent has nothing to do with it from where I stand. It is extremely logical to me - parent said she was "hanging out" in the living room. There was 10 seconds to put the laundry in a closet and close the door (the baskets). It isn't about dissecting who is "most at fault" or not or whatever. It is about a solution that would have avoided this whole post.









IMO innocent or not innocent, or in other words whether the behaviour was about intending to upset the parent, has everything to do with it.

I like hanging out, myself.







I am not a workhorse martyr parent. I do some of a chore, I take a break. I expect my child to respect me enough not to ruin things I am working on intentionally. If she does she hears about it. That is the solution I have, and I can tell you my child rarely to never pulls things like that, so it works for us.

I am observing a lot of wild, intentionally antagonistic behaviours among some of my child's friends of late. Parents respond without acknowledging the intention of the behaviour, by offering silly explanations that 'hitting hurts people' or that pouring someone's whole bottle of handsoap down the drain wastes it.

Duh. The kids know this, the parents come off as ineffectual, and thirty seconds later they are off doing something else that is not appropriate, and it is absolutely on purpose.

My child is not my roommate. She is not an adult who can demonstrate adult-like empathy consistently. I am guiding her, and part of that guiding includes letting her know that others will respond when she does things that are mean or rude or destructive, and that it is her responsibility to make those things right.

YMMV, but I can tell you I have a child who is lovely to be around, while my friends who don't necessarily follow my philosophy on this issue are not so lucky.


----------



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

what if it was something else? Something that you couldn't put away out of reach.

Than what? I believe that a 4 year old knows that certain things they do may antagonize their parent.

She said she was having a rough day, there are many times that i have told a child to go to another room because i am very close to freaking out.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Thank you so much for all the wonderful advice and opinions! I love the diversity here.

I think what it boiled down to was that he was acting out because of our bad day. (which was totally my fault-when mommy starts yelling from the start in the morning and cant bring herself under control all day, she cant really expect model behavior from her babies, right?)

It was past his bedtime too because I was spent from being angry all day and I hadnt followed our routine for bed very well. So I'll have to cross this bridge when I come to it next time. I have been so good at changing anger into love latley, i dunno what happened this day-I couldnt seem to shake rage all friggin day. It sucked.










You guys rock.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I am glad you are feeling supported! This stuff is hard.

I think it is really great that you have the insight that he was acting out because of a bad day. This doesn't excuse the behaviour IMO, I would still address the behaviour, but work to change the underlying cause, the bad day.

I also think anger is a really important sign that something is out of balance, and needs to be fixed. So for me when I feel rage partly my task is to channel it appropriately, but also to look for and correct whatever it is that is causing it.

Good luck!


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I don't think anyone was arguing that it isn't annoying...I just have a hard time grasping that a 4 year old is mean spirited and did it just to anger his parents. If my ds does it I just have him help me put it back, its fun for us, its not something that I think he is doing to be mean...its fun for them, kind of like playing with silks, KWIM? Do we need to express to them that you don't want them to do that, sure, but try to remember that he is young and I don't believe that at 4 he is being "mean".

Maybe *your* son is never mean. My daughter sometimes is.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

Children are not faberge eggs. We need to treat them with respect, but it is also okay to expect them to treat us with the same.

I agree 120% with this statement.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







Well, I disagree. I think 4 year old children can and do figure out what things may trigger parents, and they do those things, not for the fun of exploration, but for the express purpose of doing something contrary to the parent's wishes, something that will cause an emotional response in the parent.

I see a lot of children who do this, it is obvious from the glint in the eye and the lack of remorse upon seeing an upset adult. I also see parents who can't imagine their little darlings are doing said behaviour with intention to antagonize. And so the children continue on. A few of my daughter's friends, ages 4, 5, and 6, are really horrid to be around right now because parents are not addressing the fact that their more out of control behaviours are done with intention to create a rise.

There is a difference between a mean 4 year old who is doing things to be mean and a 4 year old who is doing something to test his limits or to see what kind of reaction he will get from his parents. I think a 4 year old is too young to do something to be mean.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
There is a difference between a mean 4 year old who is doing things to be mean and a 4 year old who is doing something to test his limits or to see what kind of reaction he will get from his parents. I think a 4 year old is too young to do something to be mean.

Well, then obviously you don't know the four year olds I know. They absolutely do things with the intention of hurting other people or stirring the pot, and frequently. That is reality.


----------



## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Next time I would not leave the laundry where he can get to it. I always put it up high. My kids love to dump clothes and play in them. It is fun.

They love to stuff they aren't supposed to in general when they are tired or I am tense...just to add comic relief to the situation I guess.

Like you said, the kid needed to go to bed, needed a loving routine. You needed to calm down. That is what I would do next time.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Maybe *your* son is never mean. My daughter sometimes is.

You're right, my son is never mean.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
You're right, my son is never mean.

That is good. But it's not the truth for all four year old children. Would be nice if it were!


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
There is a difference between a mean 4 year old who is doing things to be mean and a 4 year old who is doing something to test his limits or to see what kind of reaction he will get from his parents. I think a 4 year old is too young to do something to be mean.

I wonder what the 4 year olds that push other kids down are doing then? any insight?


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, then obviously you don't know the four year olds I know. They absolutely do things with the intention of hurting other people or stirring the pot, and frequently. That is reality.

I think you are not reading my posts - I said I know children do things to get a rise, stir the pot whatever, but I don't think that they are "mean", that is not where they are coming from.

When I had a child the whole paradigm through which I viewed children's behavior changed. I used to think babies needed to be sleep-trained, that people whose 18 month olds had tantrums in public were terrible parents because they couldn't control their child, and that when my friends' 4 year old pulled too hard on my dog's fur he did it to be mean. Well, clearly I was wrong and luckily my feelings changed before ds was born.

I know my son, he is a great kid, really wonderful, really easy, I think that I am really lucky and have it easier than some parents with more spirited children. He has his moments, days, of course, and there are times when he does things that make me crazy and I have to step back and think about what else could be going on and where this behavior is coming from. Tonight at dinner he started dropping his fork and spoon on the floor, most of the time he will tell me he is all done, tonight he didn't, instead he dropped his fork and spoon on the floor. I let him get down and asked him to pick up the silverware, he did and said, "Sorry Mom". When he was younger he dumped drinks out a lot and like to play with the liquid, someone suggested letting him play with water, I did and he stopped dumping water out because he got to explore it in another way. Or it just could be that he is tired and is acting out. The OP posted again and said that they had a bad day and she understood where the behavior came from.

My son has been known to pull clean laundry out of the basket, most of the time its to grab a towel to play hide and seek, does he know not to do it, yeah, do I explain to him that I just folded the clothes and he now needed to help me pick them up, yeah, but I know his intention was not mean-spirited, he wanted to play with the towel, even though I have told him over and over not to mess with the clothes while I'm folding them, the urge to play was stronger than the urge to not "do something wrong".

I am very firm with my son on some things, staying with me in public, not darting off, acceptable behavior when eating, knowing when its time to leave the park or wherever we are, etc. I just feel some things are way more important to really battle about, dumping clothes isn't a battle I really want to have.


----------



## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
That is good. But it's not the truth for all four year old children. Would be nice if it were!

If I'm reading her siggy correctly, her son is not yet 3.

There are many 4 year olds in my world who certainly have the ability and sometimes the desire to be mean. I love every one of them and also realize that they have the ability and frequently the desire to be kind. But a long day, change in routine, and stressed out mama could certainly be a recipe for the former.

I certainly had trouble keeping up with housework when I was pregnant, and had a much shorter fuse as well. One thing that makes laundry easier for me now is having fewer clothes. Really. I wash one load more frequently rather than several loads at once. It makes the task much less daunting.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
That is good. But it's not the truth for all four year old children. Would be nice if it were!

My son is only 2.5.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilovelife* 
If I'm reading her siggy correctly, her son is not yet 3.

Ah! I hadn't noticed that. My daughter is 3 years and 9 months. Maybe she is advanced.
















Quote:

There are many 4 year olds in my world who certainly have the ability and sometimes the desire to be mean. I love every one of them and also realize that they have the ability and frequently the desire to be kind.
ITA. I am not saying that the children are "mean kids." I think children are multi-faceted, but certainly they have the ability and sometimes the desire to be mean - that is to behave in a way so as to intentionally cause harm or pain to another person.

That doesn't mean they are horrible children, quite the contrary. But they are capable of much more than simply sweetness and light.

I don't see what is so wrong with acknowledging that.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole* 
Next time I would not leave the laundry where he can get to it. I always put it up high. My kids love to dump clothes and play in them. It is fun.

.

Great insight. We sometimes play "jump in the leaves" with dirty laundry. Its stinky but the kids love it, and since we dont have "fall" in florida I feel like I am providing seasons for them.









Mabye I sholdnt get mad about something that I sometimes encourage.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I wonder what the 4 year olds that push other kids down are doing then? any insight?

IMO - Saying that a four-year old is mean is like saying a 6 week old is manipulating you to hold her all the time. They don't have that in them yet -their motivation to do things is not out of meanness - just as a 6 week olds crying when you put them down is not being manipulative.

If they are mean then I would be looking at the parents.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Ah! I hadn't noticed that. My daughter is 3 years and 9 months. Maybe she is advanced.
















ITA. I am not saying that the children are "mean kids." I think children are multi-faceted, but certainly they have the ability and sometimes the desire to be mean - that is to behave in a way so as to intentionally cause harm or pain to another person.

That doesn't mean they are horrible children, quite the contrary. But they are capable of much more than simply sweetness and light.

I don't see what is so wrong with acknowledging that.

This I agree with, its different than saying a kid is mean.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
IMO - Saying that a four-year old is mean is like saying a 6 week old is manipulating you to hold her all the time. They don't have that in them yet -their motivation to do things is not out of meanness - just as a 6 week olds crying when you put them down is not being manipulative.

If they are mean then I would be looking at the parents.









My kid was playing with her 3 year old friend the other day. The mama pulled out snacks including a little bag of cookies. My daughter wanted a cookie and the friend kept saying no. Finally she negotiated that she would give my daughter *half* a cookie.









My daughter kept asking for more, the friend kept refusing, and finally the mama took the cookies and put them in her bag. The friend said, "Can I eat them when I get home?" The mom (not so brightly) said yes, much to my daughter's upset.

The friend looked at my daughter, noticed her sadness, and grinning, said, "As SOON as you go to your house I am going to eat ALL the cookies myself!"

Mean. She is not "a mean kid," but that was a mean thing to do. Intentionally to cause harm.

We're always looking to the parents, aren't we, to blame for everything negative. This child is loved and well cared for. I don't believe that all negative human interaction is unnatural, or non-essential, and blame-able upon some horrible condition of the child's life.

Sometimes kids just like to exert power in negative ways. Sometimes they are mean.

Three and four year olds are not helpless newborns with no idea that they are seperate entities who can affect those around them. Whole different world IMO.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
This I agree with, its different than saying a kid is mean.

x-posted. As I said already, I don't see anyone labelling this child or any child a "mean kid." Fact is children can behave in mean ways, that is all anyone is arguing as far as I can see.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
IMO - Saying that a four-year old is mean is like saying a 6 week old is manipulating you to hold her all the time. They don't have that in them yet -their motivation to do things is not out of meanness - just as a 6 week olds crying when you put them down is not being manipulative.

If they are mean then I would be looking at the parents.

When you have a 2.5 year old it is very hard to imagine a 4 year old being mean. Trust me they can be. But if you want to believe otherwise have at it.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
When you have a 2.5 year old it is very hard to imagine a 4 year old being mean. Trust me they can be. But if you want to believe otherwise have at it.

I have had significant exposure to children other than my own...including 4 year olds. Do they get frustrated and act out, yep...but again, I don't think a 4 year old is or should be labeled mean.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
We're always looking to the parents, aren't we, to blame for everything negative. This child is loved and well cared for. I don't believe that all negative human interaction is unnatural, or non-essential, and blame-able upon some horrible condition of the child's life.

.

Thanks for writing this. I think it is important that I understand what the impacts my behavior has on dc's behavior but also distancing myself from blame and shame. I think the more I focus on what a crappy job I did and how my child is acting poorly because of me (oh boo hoo, right?







) I acknowledge my actions, and his-and negativity sometimes enters our worlds and we should learn to react in human ways to it-and teach our children as such.

Was that a long run-on sentance.







It was in my head.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Jenny, it is wonderful to see you exploring how you can work with your children to create an environment where you are all helping to meet eachother's needs.

Quote:

Thank you so much for all the wonderful advice and opinions! I love the diversity here.

I think what it boiled down to was that he was acting out because of our bad day. (which was totally my fault-when mommy starts yelling from the start in the morning and cant bring herself under control all day, she cant really expect model behavior from her babies, right?)

It was past his bedtime too because I was spent from being angry all day and I hadnt followed our routine for bed very well. So I'll have to cross this bridge when I come to it next time. I have been so good at changing anger into love latley, i dunno what happened this day-I couldnt seem to shake rage all friggin day. It sucked

Quote:

Great insight. We sometimes play "jump in the leaves" with dirty laundry. Its stinky but the kids love it, and since we dont have "fall" in florida I feel like I am providing seasons for them.

Mabye I sholdnt get mad about something that I sometimes encourage.

I think it is wonderful that you acknowledge the underying needs or issues that may be going on beyond just "he was being mean".

It isn't about *blaming* the parents and I apologize if I came across harsh. To me, it is about seeing in _ourselves_ what we can do and how we can modify _our own behavior_ to help meet the needs of everyone involved (including meeting our own needs!) -- because only we can change and control ourselves.

Shifting the energy from "how can I control my child so they don't do X or Y" to "how can I control myself so that I can get my need of not having the laundry poured out" feels so much more empowering to me - hence the suggestion of putting it up somewhere until you were able to fold it. *It empowers us because then we know that what happens or doesn't happen doesn't hinge on what someone else does or doesn't do. Our happiness or satisfaction doesn't hinge on our expectations of someone else's behavior.*

ETA: I am in Florida as well... central Florida.... are you anywhere close?


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I remember being 4 and 5 years old. Some of the things I did were definitely not just out of wide-eyed curiosity to see what would happen; I was being mean. On purpose. And my mom (gently but with certainty) let me know that wasn't okay.


----------



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I wanted to add that I agree with everything Captain Crunchy has been saying here. Her posts reflect the ideal that I strive for in our home. It is so much easier in the long run, and definitely more empowering, to structure things in away that help everyone get there needs met. I can't control my DD. But I can control my actions.

But...as a very tiered pregnant Momma with an almost 4 year old who is very into all of the testing behaviors that have been described here I completely understand the OP's anger. I have been so disappointed in myself these past 8 months. My fuse is so short and it's hard to be as thoughtful in my reactions to DD. We were doing so well pre pregnancy.

I'm looking forward to a new infusion of those lovely mellowing nursing hormones to get me back on track!

What I want to know is: Captain Crunchy, are you always this calm and wise in the heat of the moment?


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I always feel like i am drowning in housework so thats part of it-I cant keep motivated to do dishes and laundry and cleaning all day long and I wish the house was cleaner. (Or I wish we at least had clean clothes to wear that we could find) *I am trying to get better but totally tired and want to sleep all day.*

and

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I think what it boiled down to was that he was acting out because of our bad day. (which was totally my fault-*when mommy starts yelling from the start in the morning and cant bring herself under control all day,* she cant really expect model behavior from her babies, right?)

It was past his bedtime too because I was spent from being angry all day and I hadnt followed our routine for bed very well. So I'll have to cross this bridge when I come to it next time. I have been so good at changing anger into love latley, i dunno what happened this day-*I couldnt seem to shake rage all friggin day.* It sucked.

My first thought when I read these is "depression" -- pre- and postpartum depression sometimes comes out as anger, and older children seem to be a common 'target' (along with spouses!) - perhaps because they are so needy at a time when your resources are used up.

So, please keep an eye on your own mental health and make sure that you have some time for self care. If you are becoming depressed, please seek help. Untreated depression is bad for you, your son AND the new baby (not to mention your relationship with your dh).

Take care of yourself, and you will have resources left to care for your son.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I would like to remind everyone of the basic philosophy within this forum:

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.
In relation to the OP I see a few things to point out:

You said you realize that right now you feel vulnerable concerning housework, and you aren't secure in being able to get done what needs done. So when your ds tips over the basket you react with emotions that have nothing to do with the actual crisis of the moment--there is a lot more anger rushing into the moment than is really proportionate to the event.

I can empathize that this is your trigger. But it is still a trigger and it isn't okay to assign motivations to a 4 year old which make him responsible for protecting us from our own trigger points. If we can't react calmly in the face of tipped laundry, we can't possible expect our child to resist tipping laundry in the first place--and personally this was an encouraging realization for me as a parent!

Wouldn't it be upsetting if your son believed you were reacting with excessive anger like you did on purpose, just to be mean and hurt him? It wouldn't be true, and if he saw your anger that way, it would be very difficult to reach any kind of solution. Your anger wasn't about you trying to hurt him, it was your reaction to a situation you found overwhelming on some level. Conversely, it's very doubtful that he tips the basket for the express purpose of being mean or _hurting_ you. He tips it because it is there, and now he has learned you over react to it. The behavior represents quick access to more power than he can handle--the situation quickly overwhelms him just as it overwhelms you--yet he goes back to it again and again in much the same way you go back to anger in response to him. You've both found a little cycle of going round and round in a way that doesn't bring out the best in either of you in that moment.

Are some parents awful and mean and hurtful? Yes. Is it possible that a child could be capable of really mean behavior? Yes. But that looks a whole lot different than a tipped basket--just as really mean parenting looks far different than over reacting to the tipped basket. You aren't trying to be mean, and neither is he. You are both human--nobody is perfect!

You are the parent so you have to get control first. He shouldn't stop tipping the basket to avoid _anger_. I do agree that children should be exposed to parental emotions and that our feelings can be a natural reason to change behavior--but there is a difference between sharing our emotions in a proportionate way that builds mutual awareness, and simply punishing our children with emotions. It wouldn't be wrong to react with a genuinely felt "Hey, I just washed that, I don't like that you tipped it over, because it makes more work for everyone". If they are experienced enough with self discipline, proportionate levels of emotion that help them understand what we are feeling can be enough to change behavior. But if they seem to be repeating a behavior again and again, more is needed--not more anger or louder, stronger expressions of our emotional state--but more engagement to understand why this is happening. Maybe they are tired, or bored, or want attention. Personally I don't think a 4 year old can always make better choices just because they know what they do upsets us. 4 is old enough that _sometimes_ sharing how we feel may be enough to engage them in problem solving--but 4 year olds still have a legitimate need for creativity, prevention, patience and ongoing engagement in order consistently make good choices.

In this situation, I would really focus on the need for some balance within yourself here, concerning housework. If a tipped basket sends you over the edge, that should be a cue that you are way to close to the edge, right? How can you regain some balance? What can you change in order to take care of _you_ right now? Are you sleeping enough? Can you get some help with housework? Do you need help with organizing a routine? Instead of focusing much on how to stop your son from tipping the basket right now, focus on how to get yourself to a place where you can discipline without feeling angry and overwhelmed. There are lots of ways to handle the basket tipping behavior, but the most important step is getting that balance back first, working on yourself, before addressing this situation with him.


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

This may have been said already but I feel compelled to add my experience:

Dumping laundry is fun! And the bigger the response from the adult, the more fun it is!!

Dd and Grandma used to go through this all the time! My mother would get so exasperated, which involved dramatics that were just so much fun for Dd to witness, much less know she could bring on. It was all entirely innnocent - just age appropriate play - at least for the child if not for the adult.

If I don't want to deal with dumped laundry, I did not leave it in Dd's reach. I don't remember how old she was when she became helpful, but it did happen.

In the context of the child who is disruptive because they are tired, stressed, etc, I would tell Dd that even though she was tired (or whatever word I chose to put to it to fit the situation), such and such (destructive) behavior was not OK. For instance, if we were out late, she would come in and stop by the bookshelf by our door, and pull the books down. I would remove her from the bookshelf and say, "Even though you are sleepy, the books have to stay on the shelf." Over time, she grew more controlled under stress.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
and

My first thought when I read these is "depression" -- pre- and postpartum .


Its highly probable. The only reason I am not on meds is because I am scared-I dont know if it is bi-polar and my psych assured me that if it is bi-polar, and I take the meds, they will make me psychotic. (And then we'll know!)

Thats reassuring, LOL


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

heartmama -







what a wonderful post.


----------



## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Laundry is a really tough subject in my home-I am not very good at staying on top of that chore. So when I finally start to get caught up and have 2 full baskets of clean clothes in my living room, (THANK GOD it wasnt folded yet or I might have killed ds-age 4) but last night when we were hanging out before bedtime, my ds laughed, looked at me, and pulled the baskets down and dumped them over.







:

It made me and dh so mad (because it was so disprespectful!) that dh escorted ds immedietly to bed. It was completley mean spirited. (He has done it before-which is one reason I am scared to fold laundry)

What would you do?!?! I should have made him pick it up but I was way too mad-I would have possibly lost my temper really bad-it was a looooong day.

??????????????????

Jenny

The anger you seem to feel over this is way out of proportion, imo. It is kind of frightening. It seems like you were having a bad day to begin with, & when he acted like a little kid (which he IS!) you got angry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I say this respectfully.... if you know this is a place where your child isn't displaying the best of inpulse control (it has happened before) -- then put the laundry away before it gets dumped. Even if you didn't put it completely away, put the baskets on the top shelf of the closet or something.

What is happening here in my opinion is that you are setting up a situation where you know your child has displayed poor impulse control and then acting suprised and upset when he behaves exactly as he has in the past.

I see that you expect a four year old to have the self discipline to stay away from laundry, and yet you don't have the self discipline to put it away before he gets to it so what's the deal? I know on the 'net that comes across as a really snarky statement and I am not saying it in that spirit -- I am saying it because you need to give yourself and your kid a break (imo).

It's just laundry -- so the real issue is you don't feel respected. Then DON'T make it about the laundry, make it about everyone in the family respecting eachother and choosing to help eachother meet eachother's needs. Give him tools -- have you said to him "If you want mama's attention all you have to do is say 'mama, I want attention' " ? then ... give him attention. Sometimes that is all it takes. When he is certain that his needs will be met without acting out in a way that gets negative attention perhaps these instances will be fewer.

What would have happened if he turned over the laundry, you laughed and had a sock fight and then said "hey buddy, let's see how many you can toss in from the other side of the room" -- the laundry would have gotten picked up and you would have had a moment of connection with your child instead of a moment of adversity.

Just a few things to consider... good luck.









I agree with this whole post, & especially- if you have a hard time getting laundry done & put away, if you can't "stay on top of" that chore, & you are a grown woman, can't you see how your son simply might not be able to control the impulse to dump the laundry? I cannot think of any situation where you could not find an out of the way spot to put those baskets. That would have alleviated the whole situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I think what it boiled down to was that he was acting out because of our bad day. (which was totally my fault-when mommy starts yelling from the start in the morning and cant bring herself under control all day, she cant really expect model behavior from her babies, right?)

It was past his bedtime too because I was spent from being angry all day and I hadnt followed our routine for bed very well. So I'll have to cross this bridge when I come to it next time. I have been so good at changing anger into love latley, i dunno what happened this day-I couldnt seem to shake rage all friggin day. It sucked.










You guys rock.

So he had a bad day, you yelled & were out of control the whole day, AND it was past his bedtime? Poor kid. I'd say you are lucky it was just updumped laundry.







(NOT being snarky here, I can tell you are overwhelmed, & I feel bad for you, but I feel worse for your son, because he cannot be responsible for your moods & reactions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Great insight. We sometimes play "jump in the leaves" with dirty laundry. Its stinky but the kids love it, and since we dont have "fall" in florida I feel like I am providing seasons for them.









Mabye I sholdnt get mad about something that I sometimes encourage.









Wait- so sometimes you LET him dump the laundry & play in it?? & sometimes it infuriates you? It isn't fair to expect him to know when it is ok to play in the laundry. IMO your son was blameless in this situation.

You sound like you are having a very hard time with 2 little kids & being pregnant.

I am sorry, too, that you are dealing with possible bi polar. I have friends & family who know what that is like... very very hard... however, you cannot let it affect your babies.

Good luck to you. I hope you take this post in the spirit it is intended. I remember when Joe was four







It CAN be a trying time!


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Its highly probable. The only reason I am not on meds is because I am scared-I dont know if it is bi-polar and my psych assured me that if it is bi-polar, and I take the meds, they will make me psychotic. (And then we'll know!)

Thats reassuring, LOL











find a new psych! I know that the bipolar meds are scarier to be on during pregnancy, but you should have a GOOD plan in effect for after the baby is born. Why won't your psychiatrist prescribe bipolar meds FIRST? If you show symptoms of bipolar, then you can be diagnosed and treated as such. There is no need to try the SSRIs and see how you react to them first if they think it's bipolar.

A really good book for you to read is: Women's Moods. It describes the effect hormones have on your moods, has a good self-care plan in there, and things to suggest if self-care isn't helping.

I'll repeat: Take care of yourself, and you'll find that the laundry doesn't upset you so much.


----------



## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

hey transformed - your prego right? I think your high expectations of yourself to et all this stuff done is kinda spilling into high exp of ds. (even if you aren't prego)
Like you I have flash points and I know for sure that when I'm feeling sensitive about cleaning , like laundry and it feels like all ds (1yr) does is drag it around after it has been washed I get really worked up... but I also know it is a piece of clothing and he doesn't see all the importance i feel towards that peice of clothing.

Instead of looking at is as mean spirited - see it as mischevious - looking for a laugh, looking to get some attention and maybe get chased through the house. Turn it on it ear someday - help ds dump it on the floor and get really irreverent about it, take off your shoes and stomp on it chanting - it is only fabric at the top of your lungs - I think your anger at him is more anger at yourself - release it "out there" and then when ds is looking at you like you are totaly crazy you will know you have solved the problem... say something to him like "this isn't working, the laundry still isn't folded" laugh about it... talk about how it needs to get done talk with him about how you feel about laundry.... include him in that part of yourself.... see where I am going....

you are human


----------



## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I would like to remind everyone of the basic philosophy within this forum:

In relation to the OP I see a few things to point out:

You said you realize that right now you feel vulnerable concerning housework, and you aren't secure in being able to get done what needs done. So when your ds tips over the basket you react with emotions that have nothing to do with the actual crisis of the moment--there is a lot more anger rushing into the moment than is really proportionate to the event.

I can empathize that this is your trigger. But it is still a trigger and it isn't okay to assign motivations to a 4 year old which make him responsible for protecting us from our own trigger points. If we can't react calmly in the face of tipped laundry, we can't possible expect our child to resist tipping laundry in the first place--and personally this was an encouraging realization for me as a parent!

Wouldn't it be upsetting if your son believed you were reacting with excessive anger like you did on purpose, just to be mean and hurt him? It wouldn't be true, and if he saw your anger that way, it would be very difficult to reach any kind of solution. Your anger wasn't about you trying to hurt him, it was your reaction to a situation you found overwhelming on some level. Conversely, it's very doubtful that he tips the basket for the express purpose of being mean or _hurting_ you. He tips it because it is there, and now he has learned you over react to it. The behavior represents quick access to more power than he can handle--the situation quickly overwhelms him just as it overwhelms you--yet he goes back to it again and again in much the same way you go back to anger in response to him. You've both found a little cycle of going round and round in a way that doesn't bring out the best in either of you in that moment.

Are some parents awful and mean and hurtful? Yes. Is it possible that a child could be capable of really mean behavior? Yes. But that looks a whole lot different than a tipped basket--just as really mean parenting looks far different than over reacting to the tipped basket. You aren't trying to be mean, and neither is he. You are both human--nobody is perfect!

You are the parent so you have to get control first. He shouldn't stop tipping the basket to avoid _anger_. I do agree that children should be exposed to parental emotions and that our feelings can be a natural reason to change behavior--but there is a difference between sharing our emotions in a proportionate way that builds mutual awareness, and simply punishing our children with emotions. It wouldn't be wrong to react with a genuinely felt "Hey, I just washed that, I don't like that you tipped it over, because it makes more work for everyone". If they are experienced enough with self discipline, proportionate levels of emotion that help them understand what we are feeling can be enough to change behavior. But if they seem to be repeating a behavior again and again, more is needed--not more anger or louder, stronger expressions of our emotional state--but more engagement to understand why this is happening. Maybe they are tired, or bored, or want attention. Personally I don't think a 4 year old can always make better choices just because they know what they do upsets us. 4 is old enough that _sometimes_ sharing how we feel may be enough to engage them in problem solving--but 4 year olds still have a legitimate need for creativity, prevention, patience and ongoing engagement in order consistently make good choices.

In this situation, I would really focus on the need for some balance within yourself here, concerning housework. If a tipped basket sends you over the edge, that should be a cue that you are way to close to the edge, right? How can you regain some balance? What can you change in order to take care of _you_ right now? Are you sleeping enough? Can you get some help with housework? Do you need help with organizing a routine? Instead of focusing much on how to stop your son from tipping the basket right now, focus on how to get yourself to a place where you can discipline without feeling angry and overwhelmed. There are lots of ways to handle the basket tipping behavior, but the most important step is getting that balance back first, working on yourself, before addressing this situation with him.


What an excellent post!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I would like to remind everyone of the basic philosophy within this forum:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good

I agree that children are innately good. This does not preclude the fact that sometimes they do things especially to create drama or turmoil. I think behaviours with this motivation need to be addressed as such.

This is an issue right now in my life as I am noticing these kinds of behaviours emerging in my own child, and (to a much greater degree) in some of the children in her peer group.

What I am observing is that among children whose parents address the fact that the behaviour is intentional in causing harm or upset, (like my child!) these behaviours are much less of an issue.

Among children whose parents do the "La la la assume the best intent" where it is CLEAR what the intent is, intentionally negative behaviours are common enough that the children are no longer fun to be around.

Quote:

In this situation, I would really focus on the need for some balance within yourself here, concerning housework. If a tipped basket sends you over the edge, that should be a cue that you are way to close to the edge, right?
ITA that the OP overreacted and was too harsh with the child. For me though, I find I get that way when my child is behaving in intentionally crappy ways, and I feel invalidated in my observation of that, kwim? Here in this thread many posters are saying it's the mama's fault, that she should be more on top of housework and this wouldn't happen.

Well, you know what, in my house I am already as on top of housework as I can be. Having a child intentionally sabotaging that, and feeling it's not okay to call them on that, would be what sends me over the edge. Acknowledging that intentionally doing xyz intentionally negative behaviour is my *child's* responsibility, and directing them about what is and is not okay, has been what has worked in my house.

When I used to take a lot of the more extreme GD advice seriously, and I felt like everything was my fault and I would harm my child by asserting boundaries and imposing consequences even where they were very much warranted... that is as close as I have ever come to my own personal edge. Once I stopped doing that, things calmed right down around here and my harmonious relationship with my child was able to re-establish itself.


----------



## Cyndi33 (May 27, 2005)

I dont know if this would help, but my dd loves to dump out laundry. So I wait to fold it, take it up to my bed and let her dump it on the bed. Then i make a game out of making piles for everyone and taking it to the right room.
She thinks its fun and i can sort it and fold as she plays in it a bit and helps me sort it.


----------



## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Thank you Heartmama - you expressed much of what I was trying to say but obviously not articulating well.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Here in this thread many posters are saying it's the mama's fault, that she should be more on top of housework and this wouldn't happen.

Though I think this may be true in a couple of the less gentle posts to the OP, I also believe that actually several of the posts aren't saying it's the mom's *fault*, per se, but that the solution rests in the mom figuring out how to set the situation up for success - instead of figuring out what to do about or to the child who repeatedly upsets the laundry. I see a difference between the two.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'children always have good intentions' theory, because I have seen children do things deliberately to upset others...but as you and others have said, I don't think that makes them "bad" kids anymore than I think I'm a "bad" parent because sometiems I lose my cool.

HOWEVER...I believe as the adult in the relationship, that even when a child seems to do something for no reason other than to get a rise out of me, that the onus is on me to realize in situations where behaviors like this are repeated, that my child is telling me that for whatever reason they're not able to 'get' the situation the way it's being presented, and as the parent *I* need to figure out a more effective way of addressing it so that they do get it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Acknowledging that intentionally doing xyz intentionally negative behaviour is my *child's* responsibility, and directing them about what is and is not okay, has been what has worked in my house.

And really, I don't think anyone is saying to NOT address the situation with the child - they're just recommending to take the focus off the laundry itself and look at the bigger issue. I've said plenty of the times, "heyy kiddo, that's not OK, that bugs me, I spent a lot of time on that" or whatever. What I don't do is focus exclusively on what I need to do *to him* to get whatever it is to stop, but look at the situation to see what can be done to help him really understand what's going on in the situation.

I hope this makes sense...it makes sense in my brain, but I'm not sure if it's translating to the typed words.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Though I think this may be true in a couple of the less gentle posts to the OP, I also believe that actually several of the posts aren't saying it's the mom's *fault*, per se, but that the solution rests in the mom figuring out how to set the situation up for success - instead of figuring out what to do about or to the child who repeatedly upsets the laundry. I see a difference between the two.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'children always have good intentions' theory, because I have seen children do things deliberately to upset others...but as you and others have said, I don't think that makes them "bad" kids anymore than I think I'm a "bad" parent because sometiems I lose my cool.

I don't see anyone saying this makes them bad kids.

ITA that the solution rests on the mama to fix the situation. But it doesn't have to be "Make sure you never leave laundry around or it's your fault!" Kwim? I outlined in a post previously exactly what I would do, and I think that is an equal or better solution than walking on eggshells around a four year old.

Quote:

HOWEVER...I believe as the adult in the relationship, that even when a child seems to do something for no reason other than to get a rise out of me, that the onus is on me to realize in situations where behaviors like this are repeated, that my child is telling me that for whatever reason they're not able to 'get' the situation the way it's being presented, and as the parent *I* need to figure out a more effective way of addressing it so that they do get it.
I don't think it's always about not 'getting' something, or about impulse control. Sometimes yes, but from the OP's description the child did it intentionally and with some delight at causing upset. I think it is really *ineffective* to ignore that reality.

This issue is really relevant to my life right now as I am noticing with one or two of my daughter's friends, they are engaging in deliberately negative behaviours toward their parents, other children, and other children's parents. The parents don't seem to pick up on or address this intention, although it is *clearly* there. They just make silly little explanations about how xyz hurts or upsets somebody, which the child already knows and in fact that is the whole point of their behaviour.

In the absence of any sort of negative consequence to themselves personally, or even an adult saying "I see you doing this and it is not okay," I am noticing these intentionally negative behaviours spiralling out of control. And these are not kids in crappy family situations, quite the contrary they are loved and AP'ed children who are not coming up against any respectable boundaries with this behaviour. And so it continues and I must say children I used to enjoy I am now avoiding.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

What I want to know is: Captain Crunchy, are you always this calm and wise in the heat of the moment?
Wise, I dunno







Calm, definitely not always in the heat of the moment. I am proud that I have never lost it on dd -- but I have on occasion raised my voice in a way that definitely would not be considered a respectful tone "STOP!!!" and such here and there -- but I do apologize to her and tell her she always deserves to be treated in a respectful way and ask her to forgive me for my lack of self control.

People are in very different places in their journey though -- I have been working on myself for over 10 years -- ever since I came to terms with my childhood and the things I believe affected me deeply in a negative way -- I didn't just fall out of the sky as some zen mama (who, by the way, still has a long way to go!) -- I worked my @ss off in a deliberate effort every.single.day to not repeat the past -- I am SO blessed and fortunate (my daughter benefits too I truly believe!) that I didn't have her until I was 28 because I got years and years of *stuff* worked through before that (still a process!).

I think it is always a good thing when people share and learn and I especially commend the OP for recognizing patterns, for having a desire to grow, to learn, to recognize where she can improve and seeking a more connected and gentle relationship with her child (from this post and others).

We can only change and control ourselves (imo) which is why I focus (mainly) on the parents' behaviors and thought processes in my replies rather than telling them how they can change or control their children which is not a belief system I advocate.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 

We can only change and control ourselves (imo) which is why I focus (mainly) on the parents' behaviors and thought processes in my replies rather than telling them how they can change or control their children which is not a belief system I advocate.

It is not about changing or controlling, but guiding and asserting boundaries.

Some posters on this forum would have parents walking on eggshells in our own homes, lest we leave something imperfect that a child could topple or use to make havoc.

We are the *parents,* people. And that is okay. Yes we need to be gentle and respectful with our children. But we don't need to let them be little tyrants, lest we ruin their psyches by asserting ourselves every now and again.

This is where this forum falls down for me. It seems that non-assertive, push-down-your-feelings, it's-your-fault-anyway socialization that we so frequently receive as women gets translated into a parenting style.

Does nobody a service, least of all our children.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

: I am trying to catch up here, 2 minutes ago, I walked in to play with my ds in his room, and he was taking things out of the bins and throwing them across the room saying "Its fun to make a mess"







:

So.....ok. He said "Making a mess is fun." and I said "oh!." and walked out of the room.









I really can figure out the laundry now but do you care to share your views on this one?

Jenny


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

How much fun is cleaning up a mess....

That is where I would be going with that one! I get that it is fun to make a mess. I would love to make messes, but unfortunately I have to then clean them up. If he is willing to clean up messes, well I wouldn't mind a bit if he wants to make them all day long. But I wouldn't be cool with my kid making messes and not understanding that messes must be cleaned up.

Good luck! Sounds like you've got a live one there...


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Good luck! Sounds like you've got a live one there...









Yep. sure do. He's probably just mad becauses I am his mama and I havent figured out what to give him to play with in 4 years. (He doesnt "do" toys.







)

Mabye someday.







:


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, your post is your stuff to work through. I am a parent yes, and I assert my own boundaries. However, I make sure my boundaries are taken care of by ME, I don't expect other people to advocate for my boundaries. It is nice and appreciated when they do, but not expected. If I had a need to have laundry that wasn't touched and I had good reason to believe leaving it in a common room had the potential of it spilling -- I would have put it in a closet or on a shelf. I am sorry, that takes 5 seconds to do so I reject the whole "no one has time to put a basket on a shelf" assertion.

It is not about blame. It is about meeting our own needs and being content and happy in meeting our own needs without controlling anyone or requiring that they change their behavior. The only caveat I would have to that is being physically hit. Even then though, I meet my own needs. If my child hit me, I wouldn't sit there saying "stop stop stop stop stop stop" as they hit me, feeling that they shoud meet my needs above their own reason for doing it. However, not being hit is a personal boundary so I would meet my own need by going to another room.

I see the point you are trying to make in the sort of *we are women, hear us roar* sense. We DESERVE to be respected! We DESERVE to not push down our feelings!! We DESERVE to be blameless!! Hey, I agree with you.

However, we seem to have different styles in going about meeting those needs. You assert that someone else meet those needs for us (in your examples) and I assert in my examples that we meet them for _*ourselves*_.

To me, that is what is empowering.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

his room
I suppose my question is, who's room is it? If it is, in fact, truly his room -- why do you care that he is making a mess?

Making a mess is super duper lots of fun and I love doing it myself when the situation calls for it (baking up a storm in the kitchen, rearranging furniture, painting etc).

Model an orderly home in the "common" spaces and show him how much peace you get from it -- work together for the good of the whole family to keep common spaces tidy (it belongs to everyone after all) but if it is his room truly... leave it be imo -- It clearly doesn't bother him, so if it bothers you....then clean it -- but you would be cleaning _your_ room...because again, if it is his room and he is happy...well... I digress...


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Well, your post is your stuff to work through. I am a parent yes, and I assert my own boundaries. However, I make sure my boundaries are taken care of by ME, I don't expect other people to advocate for my boundaries. It is nice and appreciated when they do, but not expected. If I had a need to have laundry that wasn't touched and I had good reason to believe leaving it in a common room had the potential of it spilling -- I would have put it in a closet or on a shelf. I am sorry, that takes 5 seconds to do so I reject the whole "no one has time to put a basket on a shelf" assertion.

It is not about blame. It is about meeting our own needs and being content and happy in meeting our own needs without controlling anyone or requiring that they change their behavior. The only caveat I would have to that is being physically hit. Even then though, I meet my own needs. If my child hit me, I wouldn't sit there saying "stop stop stop stop stop stop" as they hit me, feeling that they shoud meet my needs above their own reason for doing it. However, not being hit is a personal boundary so I would meet my own need by going to another room.

I see the point you are trying to make in the sort of *we are women, hear us roar* sense. We DESERVE to be respected! We DESERVE to not push down our feelings!! We DESERVE to be blameless!! Hey, I agree with you.

However, we seem to have different styles in going about meeting those needs. You assert that someone else meet those needs for us (in your examples) and I assert in my examples that we meet them for _*ourselves*_.

To me, that is what is empowering.

Is this directed at me?


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Is this directed at me?

No! response to thismama, sorry X posted!


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I suppose my question is, who's room is it? If it is, in fact, truly his room -- why do you care that he is making a mess?

...

Its a shared space for him and his sister to play in. And his sister sleeps in there.

I suppose I dont care.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Well, your post is your stuff to work through.

I find that a bit condescending and a lot inaccurate. My post is no more my stuff to work thru than yours is your stuff to work through. I am contributing to a discussion and that is valid.

Quote:

I am a parent yes, and I assert my own boundaries. However, I make sure my boundaries are taken care of by ME, I don't expect other people to advocate for my boundaries. It is nice and appreciated when they do, but not expected. If I had a need to have laundry that wasn't touched and I had good reason to believe leaving it in a common room had the potential of it spilling -- I would have put it in a closet or on a shelf. I am sorry, that takes 5 seconds to do so I reject the whole "no one has time to put a basket on a shelf" assertion.
Nobody is talking about time. But you are saying in your posts that the mama had no business 'hanging out' when there was something the child could get into or things were left imperfect. I reject that notion.

I also think nobody is asking the child to take care of her boundaries for her. It is not okay to treat people in disrespectful ways, or to do things to them that cause harm. It would certainly not be okay if an adult was sabotaging something important to the OP, and likewise children need to learn the lesson that deliberately causing harm is not okay, and people will respond if you do mean things to them.

Quote:

I see the point you are trying to make in the sort of *we are women, hear us roar* sense. We DESERVE to be respected! We DESERVE to not push down our feelings!! We DESERVE to be blameless!! Hey, I agree with you.

However, we seem to have different styles in going about meeting those needs. You assert that someone else meet those needs for us (in your examples) and I assert in my examples that we meet them for _*ourselves*_.

To me, that is what is empowering.
I am not saying we deserve to be blameless because we are women.







: I am saying it is not my fault if my child ruins something they know better than to ruin, deliberately to cause harm. It is not up to me to make sure there is no opportunity for that, that notion is crazymaking. I am the parent and I get to let my child know that that sort of behaviour is not going to be accepted.

If you want to chase around making sure there is never a place for your child to do something harmful on purpose, have at it. As for me I like to put my feet up once in awhile.

My style works for me. I have a child who is loved and secure, and treats others with respect. I cannot say the same for my friends whose children never get held responsible for intentionally damaging behaviour.

YMMV.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Its a shared space for him and his sister to play in. And his sister sleeps in there.

I suppose I dont care.

Who cleans it.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I suppose thismama, as always







we can agree to disagree -- I don't follow dd around making sure she doesn't "doing harmful things on purpose" because I don't believe she does harmful things on purpose. That is the difference. I believe she is capable of doing things with a purpose that are not well thought through -- but I reject the whole "little tyrant" opinion you have (your quote). I don't see things that way.

Many times my husband comes home after I have been baking and there is a royal mess in the kitchen that we both help clean up (cuz he loves me and the baking benefits him too). Sometimes pans are scattered from hell to breakfast (love that expression) so much so that he can hardly get in there to get a glass of water. Wow, if he went all off the wall yelling and losing it and punished me for it, well... we wouldn't be marred because that is not the type of person I am going to spend my life with... my mess is no less or more valid than anyone else's. It was a mess I made on purpose.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Who cleans it.

No one!









Eventually, me, with a trashbag to give 75% of the toys to charity because I would rather give them away than clean up. He learned his cleaning skills from mommy and daddy.







:


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
No one!









Eventually, me, with a trashbag to give 75% of the toys to charity because I would rather give them away than clean up. He learned his cleaning skills from mommy and daddy.







:

Ha! Sounds like my house.









Personally if it were me, nobody would be having fun making messes unless they were the ones cleaning said messes. You have to find the balance that works for you, but being a little assertive is not the same thing as being mean or disrespectful to your child.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

...according to you thismama.

I don't think a child can be expected to clean up when it isn't being modeled for them! Doesn't that sound a bit um... I dunno.. hypocritical?

OP I am so not trying to condemn you or speak disrespectfully. You do seem like you genuinely are looking for ways for everyone to work together in a way that leaves everyone feeling good and respected and that is awesome.

However, I do think it is unfair to expect a four year old to be tidy when you admit to not being too tidy (and I am not condemning you for that! It is not a value judgment it is a fact you provided). I think that children learn what they live, not what we tell them.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
...according to you thismama.

I don't think a child can be expected to clean up when it isn't being modeled for them! Doesn't that sound a bit um... I dunno.. hypocritical?

OP I am so not trying to condemn you or speak disrespectfully. You do seem like you genuinely are looking for ways for everyone to work together in a way that leaves everyone feeling good and respected and that is awesome.

However, I do think it is unfair to expect a four year old to be tidy when you admit to not being too tidy (and I am not condemning you for that! It is not a value judgment it is a fact you provided). I think that children learn what they live, not what we tell them.

I agree.

Is there a difference between a 4 year old throwing things to make a mess on purpose and mom and dad getting things out, using them, and not putting them away?

(seriously)


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Anyway Jenny, here is something that might help and is something I do with dd (she is 26 months but extremely verbal).

Your son has expressed a need. He thinks making messes are fun and enjoys mmaking messes.

You have a need. You don't want your house trashed.

Both are valid needs and can both be addressed imo -- I am assuming your son is verbal so why don't you tell him "I hear that you like making messes (state his need), but I like a to keep the house clean (your need). Let's work together to help eachother! Can you tell me when you want to make a mess and I will help you make one together!" Or some variation.

Set him up in the kitchen or bathroom with tons of stuff to go nuts with -- dd loves to paint and when I am feeling lazy







she paints in the bathtub sans water -- all over the walls, standing in the bath -- then I can hose everything down really easily. We have bins of different textures and whatnot to make messes with --- shaving cream, sand, cormeal mixed with water that makes a goo, paint, things like that. I throw down an old, cheap shower curtain in the kitchen and she goes to town --- she (almost) always tells me now "I want to make a mess!!!" because she knows I don't see it as a *bad* thing or as something she can't do -- she knows she is totally *allowed* to make a mess and by telling me beforehand, I can get out the good stuff









Maybe that would work... maybe setting up situations where he is free to go to town (in the bathtub without water is a good containment for messes







) or outside or wherever, in a situation where he feels free to tell you messes are awesome (cuz they are, and to a four year old they are heaven on earth), and where he knows you will meet that need in a way that is agreeable to you -- it may avoid a lot of this.

Worth a try right?


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
If you want to chase around making sure there is never a place for your child to do something harmful on purpose, have at it. As for me I like to put my feet up once in awhile.

My style works for me. I have a child who is loved and secure, and treats others with respect. I cannot say the same for my friends whose children never get held responsible for intentionally damaging behaviour.

YMMV.

I guess I'm just not seeing responses the same way, because the ideas here I'm seeing don't feel to me like chasing around, or not holding your child responsible. There's a wide range of responses to a situation like this in between the two ideas above, and involve both addressing your child's issues, and figuring out ways you can adjust a situation to make it more successful for everyone. That seems pretty win/win to me.

Who ever thought *I'd* be advocating for more consensual solutions!







What a journey I've taken in the past couple years! Believe me, I'm still way less consensual than many mamas here, and I have high expectations for my children when they are out and about in the world...but issues like this particular one seem to be much more productively and easily resolved when working together to find a way to make it work for everyone involved. So it's not mom walking on eggshells bubblewrapping everything, but it's also small child being sent to his room for the night when he's doing something that can easily be avoided, and in all honesty is a somewhat confusing situation (sometimes they dump piles of laundry together and jump on them, sometimes they don't) - I'm NOT bashing the OP, I have had many times where I've overreacted to situations and made them more complicated than they needed to be. I'm human. I just don't see this as a situation that's all or nothing, that it's either mom completely having to be on top of the laundry or kiddo having to be reprimanded or forced to handle the laundry the next day...

I dunno....just seems like we're likely not all that far apart in what we're saying, just seeing things a bit differently. I dont' think anyone here is advocating for mom to be slave to their kid and kid to be catered to all the time. At least, that's not what I'm getting here...

OK, gotta go do dinner. Maybe I'll check back later this evening.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I dont' think anyone here is advocating for mom to be slave to their kid and kid to be catered to all the time. At least, that's not what I'm getting here...










It is called _*mutually*_ agreeable solutions for a reason folks


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Sounds like you have a bored 4 year old that really wants to interact with you. With everything going on right now you're overwhelmed. It's probably harder for him to find positive ways to get your attention. I'd probably try a playful approach and say something like "hey do you think you could throw the stuff back into the right bins from over here?". Then I'd try to throw an object back where it went. It couldn't hurt to try. He might toss everything back, but more importantly he'd get some pleasant interaction and you wouldn't be upset. As for the laundry issue my DD, 21 months, always "helps" me with laundry by first dumping it out then handing me individual hangers and pieces of clothing, while playing with the rest of the unfolded part. I always put the hung up and folded pieces where she can't reach them.
But then I only have one child, and for several reasons can't have any more. So DH and I are determined to for the three of us to enjoy these toddler and preschool years as much as we can. Sort of a 'savor the wild chaos' of DD's discovering the world around her. I couldn't imagine trying to give two LO's my complete attention while I was pregnant and feeling ill.


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
To me, one difference is that when I make a mess, I know that I'm eventually going to clean it up. I don't get things out, use them, and then assume that the rest is someone else's problem - I understand that I'm simply deferring the work that I'll need to do at some point or another.

Likewise, I don't view a 4 year old's angry-laundry-dumping as the same thing as my leaving the dinner dishes on the counter for a few hours. I see the former as more comparable to my deliberately knocking over the stack of CD-ROMs on my husband's desk (in order get his attention, anger him, provoke a reaction, whatever), and I see the latter as along the same lines as my child leaving her markers and crayons scattered around the table after she's done making pictures.

Yep.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Four-year-olds don't have great impulse control. It might feel like your son is being mean and doing it to hurt you, but look at it from the point of view of a 4-year-old. A big pile of laundry is a lot of fun. Laundry baskets that are empty are a lot of fun. My daughter likes to pretend she's in a cage. I think it's about impulse control and not meanness.

Personally, I put the laundry somewhere my daughter can't get at it, sometimes even now that she's 5. We're just getting to a point where I can ask her if she wants to help me with the laundry and she'll sometimes help. But she can't look at a big pile of laundry without doing *something*. I can steer that need to touch toward folding (imperfect but still folded) but she has a hard time not doing something with that big pile of clothes.

As for room cleaning, I don't expect my daughter to keep her room particularly clean. She sometimes gets frustrated if she can't find something, or part of something, and I'll suggest it might be easier to find her things if her room was clean. I do help her clean if I see her in there tidying up. Or sometimes she'll say it's too messy and she doesn't know what to do, and I'll suggest two or three things at a time (put all the books in the bins, put all your dress-up clothes in the dress-up clothes hamper) and she'll work on those few things and ask for suggestions of other things to do. "Clean up" is a big vague for small children.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Funny, I was just dealing with this an hour ago.

Ds is almost three, and loves to throw piles of clothes on the floor. I was just folding clothes and he threw one folded pile on the floor. I suppose the simple thing to do would be keep the piles high up, but I really believe that it is more productive to help him learn. I explained to him that he can't throw the clothes on the floor, Mommy just spent time folding them, and also they would get dirty again (major dog hair). He can "help" me fold or pick things up and hand them to me. I asked him to tell me the colors of the shirts he saw. He went to push over another pile, and I gently but firmly told him that it was not helping, and to please help me or go play with his toys.

However, I would not leave the piles out long-term and expect them to stay there folded. Tempation is too strong, and it would be my fault if they ended up on the floor.

Lately, I have started to resist the urge to take things away, keep them high up, etc, to keep him out of things. I made this change when I realized we were putting the dog outside so ds doesn't bother him, instead of teaching ds not to bother the dog. I believe an almost three year old can understand that certain behaviors are expected of him, I address it when he does something he shouldn't, but I try not to get mad. Sometimes I fail.

As far as cleaning up messes, I participate in the clean up, but insist he helps since it is his mess. Even if it only means he does a small portion of it.

I really think children of that age can start to understand that certain behavior isn't acceptable, including pulling the dog's tail, or being purposefully destructive with things.

And I have seen kids on the playground do mean things. I'm sure they are lovely children usually, but I've seen mean come out of a 5 year old.


----------



## rachellanigh (Aug 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
He knows it gets your goat so he does it.

And the less it "gets your goat" the less frequently he'll do it. That which you focus your attention on, he will as well.

Parenting is hard!!! Hang in there and enjoy your precious one while you can.


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
This happens often in my house, and I dont know how to deal with it because it really makes me mad/sad/feel helpless.

Laundry is a really tough subject in my home-I am not very good at staying on top of that chore. So when I finally start to get caught up and have 2 full baskets of clean clothes in my living room, (THANK GOD it wasnt folded yet or I might have killed ds-age 4) but last night when we were hanging out before bedtime, my ds laughed, looked at me, and pulled the baskets down and dumped them over.







:

It made me and dh so mad (because it was so disprespectful!) that dh escorted ds immedietly to bed. It was completley mean spirited. (He has done it before-which is one reason I am scared to fold laundry)

What would you do?!?! I should have made him pick it up but I was way too mad-I would have possibly lost my temper really bad-it was a looooong day.

??????????????????

Jenny

hi jenny -

i started to read this thread a little.... but decided i'd rather just respond directly to you then read it all and sift through the debates. i openly admit that i would probably get ticked off about that too. i am really laid back in many areas, but a tidy home is my weak spot. if your son was a toddler, i would say his behavior is very age appropriate. but since your son is 4 years old, and you have stated this is a common occurrence and have already talked with him about it -- well that's not okay imo. i would have asked my child to pick up the clothes he had knocked over and put them back in the basket. i would have tried to react calmly. however, i fully understand that you were too angry to follow that route, and i think it's really good that you knew your limits. imo - the fact that he went to bed immediately was more than enough consequence. in the future though, i would give him the logical consequence of picking up the clothes. if it happens again and everything is folded - then i would ask him to help me fold them and put them up. hugs mama.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Oh, I forgot to add...

I think you should ask him to help pick up the clothes he dumped over. Be persistant about it.

And then perhaps sit down and read a book, or give him some attention.

I always tell ds that I appreciate his efforts. He may not understand the word, but I'm sure he understands the tone.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
I see the former as more comparable to my deliberately knocking over the stack of CD-ROMs on my husband's desk (in order get his attention, anger him, provoke a reaction, whatever

To play devil's advocate...suppose that for whatever reason you did knock over your husband's CDs even though you knew it would irritate him....how would you most appreciate him responding? By scolding you and telling you you must pick them up NOW and if you didn't sending you to your room, or by saying, "Um...that was uncool. I had those there for a reason. What's going on?"


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
But with each of them, I know there's a point at which they're going to just know that I consider the action unacceptable - and that's when I don't have as much interest in/hope for the approach of talking it through yet again, rather than giving a short reminder and expecting some sort of reparative action.

You know what? Point taken...gotta ruminate on this a little.


----------



## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

What is it with the laundry anyway?

My son loves to dump it out too, and we have been dealing with this for years now.
We switched to using laundry bags that cinch closed instead of hampers. He can't get them open, and the clothes don't dump as easily even if he does get it open. I find that the laundry has much better chances of staying clean until I get it put away if ti is in the bags.

Good luck!


----------



## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

Wow. There's a lot in this thread, and a lot I could say. I also have a just turned 4 year old, and we've had some trying times lately. For us, I think part of it is that she's just started a new school, and we're not settled into our new routine yet. And she is needing more attention (I think) from me at home because she doesn't yet feel comfortable at her new school (she likes it, it's just still new and that can be exhausting --I'm still that way at 32!). But I've found myself still thinking of these little "encounters" we have in a me vs her mentality. So, the other day I challenged myself to think about it as a knot. Is it going to come unloose if I just pull tighter? No. I need to back up, pull it out a different way, or try another approach. And this has helped me so much mentally. I still aim for the same outcome (laundry put back in the basket, toys put up, etc), but when I hit a roadblock with her, I just think "ok, come up with a new trick." And then, when it's all said and done (after the emotions are back together) I say "hey, you know what. I had worked hard to fold that laundry, and it upset me when you dumped it all out." And one time she even likened it to her art project that her sister had knocked over.

But you know what, sometimes I think we overlook the fact that, at 4 years old, they are starting to really understand their world and to realize how many (to them) things are imposed on them. Sometimes I think they just want to assert some control. And as a borderline control freak myself, I get that. Sometimes I draw a line with my husband over something completely stupid just because everything else in my world feels out of my control at that moment. I think it's perfectly fine to still make sure they have a part in getting the laundry back together or the toys picked up, but sometimes that may just be worth it to have the satisfaction of being in control.

And I also think that, at 4 years old, it is fun to just be crazy and dump things all over the place. We just sometimes have forgotten that 20 or 30 years later when we're the parent because we aren't willing to take on the fun knowing the price of the cleanup!


----------



## Seannamama (Dec 3, 2004)

I just want to say that you are in no way alone in getting angry at a "little thing". There are things for each of us that push our buttons and as our kiddos get older...they begin to do things that they know will push them.
There's definitely something infuriating about that mischievous glint in their eye...even if it is just testing (I'm not sure what I think about the mean spirited/testing issue).
I personally find myself getting really mad a lot these days..since I had my new little one...
I often feel really sad about this and I'm working on it daily...but it is still a reality that (particularly when we are tired) it happens.
I believe that kids shouldn't be sheltered from the full range of emotions, as long as they understand that our love is unconditional.
Good luck...I am told that this will pass








peace,Renee


----------

