# I feel defeated...MIl rant and GD, UPDATE #64



## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

I posted yesterday about my MIL pulling ds's hair. Well, last night, she dropped by again unannounced and I was obviously perturbed, kept my conversation short with her, etc. (Again, getting kitchen cleaned before ds's bedtime).

Anyway, she brought ds some junk (popsicles, etc). He wasn't in the greatest mood (it had been a challenging evening with him hitting everything in sight). And, when she arrived the first thing he did was hit her.







She told ds that he should be nice to her because she bought him some things







: And, he tried to hit her again and said he didn't want them. I gently pulled him over to me, reminded him of our earlier conversation (no hitting) and then he tried to show off a little bit in front of MIL (stick out tongue) so I asked him if we needed to talk in another room. He said "no" and walked away - but first put his arm out like he was going to hit her (but didn't).

MIL then said she was leaving and promptly walked out the door without even a goodbye. Ds was left hysterically asking for "mamaw" and said he wanted to give her a kiss.







It was awful.absolutely awful. What could I say in that situation?

So, dh wasn't around - I gave him my account of the situation and asked him to talk to her. dh didn't think this was a big deal - but I was so hurt for ds. He didn't understand (he's 2.5yo) why she left, no did she even think about discussing it with him.

So, dh and I talked a long while about it. Dh said he'd handle it, but I wanted to know exactly HOW. Long story short, she told dh that I make her feel unwelcome and that she left because ds has been hitting her with more frequency, so she thought she'd teach him a lesson







:

I told dh that I thought it was important that we tell our families what is okay and what is never okay when it comes to disciplining ds. Pulling hair, hitting, spanking, etc, etc are NEVER okay. And, if dh or I are around - WE will handle the discipline, NO ONE else.

Dh got upset and asked if I should write a manual to give to everyone who ds comes in contact with and have them take a test before they are allowed to be alone with ds. It hurt my feelings because I'm the one researching the best decisions for ds - while dh has said he'll go with the flow. And, now all the sudden, the research doesn't matter? Because it's his mom?

As a side note, MIL and I have at best a tense relationship. She is a very overbearing, intrusive woman with no relationship boundaries. I've been seeking the help from a counselor who told me that I need to emotionally distance myself from her - which I feel I've been successful in doing. Dh says this is wrong and that I come off as cold and rude when she visits 5-6x per week. Could ds be picking up on some of my emotion? I really don't feel like I'm rude to her, but I simply don't really get too involved in conversation with her. I mostly just keep myself busy with housework while she's visiting (which requires me to be in the laundry room or kitchen). I had actually hoped this approach over time might help her realize that MY life will not stop just because she wants to drop by all the time. I still have a home to keep up with.

So, I just feel defeated overall. Like HOW I'm trying to raise my ds doesn't matter to dh when it involves his mom. His mom already thinks I'm nuts simply because I don't let ds eat crap all the time, drink soda and because I don't want pain meds during birth and I nurse for "too long". I just feel stomped on and I really have no idea where to go at this point.

1. I guess I'm looking for some information about books that show developmentally appropriate milestones (cause/effect, empathy, abandonment - which is what I felt MIL did when she left without saying goodbye and could clearly hear ds screaming for her to come back.)

2. Should I address the tension issue with MIL or leave that to dh? He said he'd talk to her about not stopping by all the time - but he's said that before and she still does.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

Ummm, is that my mil? except for the junk food part, she's actually really weird about food, it's all organic, but it's crazy, not normal. SHe has some serious eating issues, and she's a wreck as a result.
First of all, hello, stopping by 5-6x a week is NOT okay, especially if you don't enjoy those visits.
Confronting my MIL did not work, you could talk to that woman til your blue in the face, she'll still totally disrespect you. So yes, emotionally distancing is good. SHe is also being manipulative, not good. SO you need to get tough, centred and calm. If she comes over more than you are comfy with, just tell her when she comes that you are busy at the mo, and to please come at another time. SHe will give you a hard time about this, but you have to value yourself.
The hardest part for me was that I REALLY had this dream we could get along. I know my mil loves my children. But at some point, I had to put myself first in the relationship, for the sake of the children. I had to face reality of who she is, and to expect more is unrealistic. I know it's hard. Your dh needs to support you too. Maybe he doesn't understand your feelings, but regardless, he needs to be supportive of you.
It's all a good learning experience for you to learn to draw healthy boundaries and learn to really stand up for yourself, and your child. Good luck with this.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

No offense meant at all... but I've been trying to explain natural / logical consequences to Dh- and one example I used was if you hit someone they may not want to play with you.
She may be a big pain in the behind, but wasn't your MIL leaving as a result of being hit a logical consequence?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I certainly think that 5-6 visits a week is at least 5 too many. And coming over unannounced is totally unacceptable. My MIL used to do this when we first were married, and we finally got to the point where we just wouldn't answer the door. It was obvious from the cars in the driveway we were home, but eventually she got the point.

You need to come to some agreement with your dh before you start planning the line with your MIL. If he isn't on board, you are in a tough spot.

I also tend to agree with Madre. I don't think it's a bad lesson for your son to learn that when he hits people, they will not want to hang around with him.


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## Stephane (Jul 20, 2005)

I have no specific advice for you, just hugs.









I had serious MIL issues in my last relationship. I also had some boundary issues with my own mom that I had to work out when my oldest children were small. I'm happy that I've worked those things out with my mom now, but it was tough for quite awhile. Hang in there.

I also know that my dd is the same age as your ds, and if Grandma were to just leave in the middle of a visit, she'd be heartbroken, even if she had been snotty and even if it was a natural consequence. I'm not sure they're able to rationalize that sort of thing at this age.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Yikes. I kinda like my MIL, and if she dropped by 5-6x a week unannounced I'd probably hit her or pull her hair! Especially if she expected me to drop everything I'm doing and entertain her. Can you start with telling her that she MUST call before coming over to make sure it's a good time for you, and that you will not be answering the door unless she has done so? And then stick to that? Or will your DH throw a monkey wrench in that?

I think MP has a good point, but I also think that it's a poor example for her to set to not have a straightforward conversation with your son ("It hurts and makes me sad when you hit/pull hair, I think I should go home if you don't feel like being kind right now" or something like that) instead of just leaving and not explaining herself. If you're feeling bold, I might ask her "so what lesson were you trying to teach him, passive-aggression?"









I don't know of a book to suggest, but maybe print her an article or two to read (DH too!). One of my fave sites for short, quick to the point articles is http://www.naturalchild.com/articles/


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

I see what you mean, MAdre Piadosa, but I think it would have helped if MIL had said "DS, I am leaving beause it makes me sad when you hit me." Or something to that effect, so he understood why she left.


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## Mommy Piadosa (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ashleep*
I see what you mean, MAdre Piadosa, but I think it would have helped if MIL had said "DS, I am leaving beause it makes me sad when you hit me." Or something to that effect, so he understood why she left.

Oh I totally agree








It just struck me because I happen to have used that same example last night








I should have also addressed the rest of the post and the questions.
1. No book recs- sorry, but even grownups get upset if someone leaves without saying goodbye. Maybe you could ask her how she would feel if you got upset for something she did- then while she was in the bathroom, dissappear without a goodbye.
2.I do think that its dh's issue- since its his mom. But if he is unable to get her to respect boundries... how would she respond to a sign on the door. "Mama and child are resting, please call us after X time to arrange a visit." Then don't answer your door. Or do you have a friend's house you could camp out at for a week so your not home? Maybe she'll get that message.. if dh talking doesn't help.
Dana


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
Oh I totally agree








It just struck me because I happen to have used that same example last night








I should have also addressed the rest of the post and the questions.
1. No book recs- sorry, but even grownups get upset if someone leaves without saying goodbye. Maybe you could ask her how she would feel if you got upset for something she did- then while she was in the bathroom, dissappear without a goodbye.
2.I do think that its dh's issue- since its his mom. But if he is unable to get her to respect boundries... how would she respond to a sign on the door. "Mama and child are resting, please call us after X time to arrange a visit." Then don't answer your door. Or do you have a friend's house you could camp out at for a week so your not home? Maybe she'll get that message.. if dh talking doesn't help.
Dana

MD - I do understand what you were saying - and had she discussed it with him prior to leaving, I would have been okay with it. Instead, she left (and not immediately after the hitting - so it even left me confused. Dh and I think it's very important to discuss before, during, and after a consequence.

No, my dh will not be on-board with just not answering the door. Because to him, it's perfectly acceptable for her to drop by this frequently. The only time it's bothered him is when MIl stopped by AT DINNER TIME 4 days in a row. Finally, dh made the comment to MIL - "you know, this is the 4th time this week that you've stopped by at dinner - and ds thinks it's time to play instead of eat when you're here." She totally didn't get it "because I didn't bring any food over."







:

Thank you all for your suggestions. Honestly, I know I really cannot talk to her about her visiting so frequently because she doesn't respond - not to me, not to dh - she really doesn't care.

But, maybe if dh can angle it this way "you know mom, I really think that ds has been hitting you more frequently because lately you've been coming over shortly before his bedtime (which is wind-down time for us) and maybe if you call first, Steph or I can let you know if he's in a good humor - so that the hitting is less likely. Because lately, ds has been getting tired earlier and I think it has to do with the fact he's waking earlier in the am and we're busy outside playing most evenings. He's just tired by the time you get here and isn't really in the mood to play." She may respond to that.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I have a similiar MIL







I can empathize with you. I think first of all, you and dh need to be on the same page when dealing with your mil and your son. Once you can agree on the basics of disciplining, then you can all sit down with mil and explain to her what you're trying to do. I also think it might be a good idea for you to attempt to have a conversation with her by yourself explaining that while you want her and ds to have a good solid bond, you are still the mother and she needs to respect YOUR boundaries. I know all of this is easier said than done. We've done all the above and have finally come to the conclusion that my mil is pretty much nuts







She just doesnt get it so we try and limit our time around her. She used to drop in ALL THE TIME but she got sick and we live farther so she cant just drop by anymore....
Anyway....good luck


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

Steph, that sounds like a good conversation. And, as far as dh not liking it if you don't answer the door, I'd tell him fine, when he's home he can visit her all he wants, when he's gone, too bad for her. Maybe in a nicer way. My FIL is in the habit of calling really late at night: 10:30 and later. Now, before kids, I wouldn't have cared AS MUCH, but I now really value any time after the kids are asleep, and don't want the phone ringing off the hook. Besides, in our families, it's just common curtesy to not call that late "just to talk", and he always has to talk for at least an hour. So, I just stopped answering. dh can answer if he wants, but when he's not home, I just don't answer (and he knew dh wasn't home, but called anyway). He got the point eventually and stopped calling so late. Well, until now, but that's because dh doesn't get home until 10, and FIL calls right when he walks in, only talks a couple of min., and then tries to wait till the weekend.


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## lauraheartslittle1 (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
But, maybe if dh can angle it this way "you know mom, I really think that ds has been hitting you more frequently because lately you've been coming over shortly before his bedtime (which is wind-down time for us) and maybe if you call first, Steph or I can let you know if he's in a good humor - so that the hitting is less likely. Because lately, ds has been getting tired earlier and I think it has to do with the fact he's waking earlier in the am and we're busy outside playing most evenings. He's just tired by the time you get here and isn't really in the mood to play." She may respond to that.

That's a wonderful way to put it. Hoping it will work for you.

I may be coming in a little late on this, but with your MIL pulling *his* hair, does she not consider that to be equally offensive as your ds hitting her? She is at least an adult who *should* be able to control herself. At age two, people have a little less impulse control than at oh say 52.

Anyways.







s to you


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

* Tell her to stop coming by unannounced. If she continues, meet her at the door, chat with her on the porch but refuse to let her in. We used to live a couple miles from my husband's parents. Now we live about a football field's distance away and she never comes by unannounced because she knows I won't let her in.

* Tell her under no circumstances is she to ever discipline your son. You have your beliefs on how it should be done and it's not up to her to enforce her beliefs, but rather respect your decisions. Pulling his hair, no matter how funny both of them thought it was, was totally inappropriate. I'd let her know that if she ever tried to physically hurt one of my children again, it would be the last time she had physical access to them.

* My blanket statement to anyone who questions what I do with my children is "you raise/raised yours the way you wanted and I'd appreciate if you let me do the same."

I don't like Dr. Phil but I watched a parenting show once. He made some remark about how consistency with your kids shouldn't just happen in your home. If your parents or in-laws are around all the time, they should treat your children like you do in regards to diet, discipline, rules and/or schedules. I told my husband his mother and sister can spoil the kids all they want when visits go down to once a month. If they want to come over all the time and be with the kids all the time, they need to respect my wishes in what they eat (I don't allow much junk, either), how they play (no killing games, no older-kid cartoons) and how they are disciplined (no spanking, "popping" hands, yelling at them, humiliating, belittling, etc.). Otherwise, the only thing you can do is limit contact.


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

...I don't have any words of wisdom at all, in fact I'm pretty much floored by the whole thing...but this has got to be very difficult for you and I really hope your DH can make your MIL understand how unreasonable she is being.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
No offense meant at all... but I've been trying to explain natural / logical consequences to Dh- and one example I used was if you hit someone they may not want to play with you.
She may be a big pain in the behind, but wasn't your MIL leaving as a result of being hit a logical consequence?

Yes, it's a logical consequence, but it would have been better for her to have told the little guy that she was leaving, why she was leaving and given him a proper goodbye. My dd is a lot like the OP's son, if there's no goodbye, no transition she will freak out. She doesn't understand why someone she loves didn't say bye and is suddenly gone. It can literally take hours for her to calm down after this happens to her. It got to the point where we told someone point blank that if they were going to be in our house they had to let dd know when they are leaving because of how poorly she handles change without transition.

To the OP: I agree, 5-6 x a week is rediculous. I see my MIL that often right now because we don't have a vehicle and it's driving me up the *&%&^%*^$ wall because she doesn't understand boundaries or respect me as a parent. But I'm too nervous to tell her off because she's our only transportation right now and she tends to throw pity parties and sulk ugh..


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Nevermind, just caught on to the fact that this was the next day. I hope the other solutions work for you.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Um, are you guys really calling love-withdrawl a logical or natural consequence?

And OP, are you leaving your child in the care of a woman who defends her right to pull his hair? Did I read correctly that you go to another room during her visits and leave him unsupervized with her?

I really hope not.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Um, are you guys really calling love-withdrawl a logical or natural consequence?

No, the withdrawal isn't the consequence, MIL leaving is the consequence. When we are not nice to people they don't want to be around us. Thus, MIL left because shewas being hit. I don't understand or condone the way she went about it (not saying anything to ds) but I understand the leaving.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I stand by my questions.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
...wasn't your MIL leaving as a result of being hit a logical consequence?

I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

Then, if that seemed to be sinking in and I felt like he was open to it, I'd say "would you like to phone grandma and let her know that you're sorry about hitting? I bet she'd be really happy to know that."

If instead you respond with something like "I can't _believe_ she left without saying good-bye! Look what it's doing to poor ds!" then ds continues to think only of himself, what he wants, how he is affected, and learns exactly the wrong message.

My take anyway.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Um, are you guys really calling love-withdrawl a logical or natural consequence?

And OP, are you leaving your child in the care of a woman who defends her right to pull his hair? Did I read correctly that you go to another room during her visits and leave him unsupervized with her?

I really hope not.









Aira - I think everyone was trying to tell me that IF MIL had explained to ds WHY she was leaving - then it would have made more sense for this to be a consequence. But, with the way MIL handled it - I think she made it more about love withdrawal, at least that's how I took it from the WAY she left and WHEN she left (not immediately after the hitting took place.)

Also, I DID leave the room when MIL pulled ds's hair, but dh was in the same room and he immediately got up to handle the situation. I knew he'd do better handling it, because I would have just pulled her hair







And, that's not what I wanted to teach my ds.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."
Did DS get to leave when GM pulled his hair to teach him a lesson? Why is it only one way?

Quote:

Then, if that seemed to be sinking in and I felt like he was open to it, I'd say "would you like to phone grandma and let her know that you're sorry about hitting? I bet she'd be really happy to know that."
Was DS given the apology that he deserves? What does that say to him?

Why is there no discussion about MIL being left cold for her actions toward DS? Would that not be a natural consequence for her abuse of him?









OP, whether or not she said why she was leaving, it's love-withdrawl. I got their distinction - I just think it's a rediculous one to make. Does one really think that specifically telling a child that I'm leaving _because_ of you makes it better or gentler? WTH?

I can't really believe I'm reading this here.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

Then, if that seemed to be sinking in and I felt like he was open to it, I'd say "would you like to phone grandma and let her know that you're sorry about hitting? I bet she'd be really happy to know that."

If instead you respond with something like "I can't _believe_ she left without saying good-bye! Look what it's doing to poor ds!" then ds continues to think only of himself, what he wants, how he is affected, and learns exactly the wrong message.

My take anyway.

blessed - I understand your point, and had this been a one time occurrence, then I'd be more likely to handle the situation differently. (Though I didn't say to ds that I couldn't believe MIL did that, though I did to dh LATER.)

Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.

But, thank you for your input, you have definitely given me another take on the situation.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.

Why does an abusive person have access to you child? I'm not able to understand why there is a discussion about the particularities of how MIL should be allowed to mess with you son.

It's all messing with your son.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I just read your other thread as well. I think the bottom line is that she needs to stop dropping by unannounced and uninvited. If you could address and resolve this, it would solve a lot of the other issues. She needs to call before she comes over. And you need to be willing to say, _"Its not a good time_." It would be best if you DH told her, but if is unwilling to to that -- then you will have to. But he needs to understand that this *your* home and your family, and its time for her to back off and let your live your life and have your routines. She has become a disruption, and that is really sad. If your DH wants you to have a good relationship with his mom, then he needs to understand that the only way to do that is with clear boundries.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute...

Oh, ick. That's pathological. No wonder he feels so conflicted about her.

Sounds like probably the best bet is to do as some PPs have suggested and set some limits with grandma - her number, timing and length of visits, and how much of a role she has in disciplining. It would be mighty tough to pull off without destabilizing everything. The situation is so tenuous as it is. Maybe your counselor would have some good suggestions about how to approach this.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think your two year old is expressing the unspoken tension rife within the situation. While I agree that learning not to hit is perfectly appropriate, I think telling him that grandma left because he hit her is a half truth. The full truth seems to be something like "Grandma left because being hit was the last straw, and an easy scapegoat for the underlying tension between us~ she doesn't respect the way I raise you and I'm sick of her relentless intrusive overbearing visits. The only way I can even stand her is by remaining emotionally detached, but your father thinks she should have free reign to come over any time she pleases, and so you seem to be stuck with this awkward experience almost daily."

But I don't think a two year old can understand that.

While emotional detachment from your MIL is helpful, physical detachment is the key.

I guess I cannot relate with giving my dh a say over who I should have to visit me 6 times a week. If dh wanted to have his mother over in the evening when he came home from work, that is his choice. I can go out for coffee *LOL* He does not get to say whether I should visit her when he isn't here. That is for me to decide, not him. So I don't know what to advise you on this. Dh would never tell me I had to respond a certain way to his mother.

Having someone around you 5-6 times a week that is overbearing and critical of your parenting seems like a very unpleasant way to live. If for no other reason, I'd put up some limits so that my child wasn't confused and blamed for the underlying tension that affects him.

One visit a week, planned in advance, when ds is well rested and fed, would be generous and thoughtful on your part. If she wants more than that, she can earn it with respectful behavior.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*

Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.


Ya know, if my MIL did that, I'd lock the door the second time. Her behavior is really unacceptable. Poor ds shouldn't be manipulated like that


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

Seriously? Wow. I'd just wonder if I had come at a bad time, and politely (and sincerely) ask if it would be better for me to come back another time. We're talking about a 2.5 year old here. A toddler. When a toddler hits, they're trying to say something. It's not time to walk out as punishment, it's time to listen and respond (or gracefully take your leave so the parents can listen and respond).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

I totally disagree. I think it's ridiculous for a grown adult to be hurt by the actions of a 2.5 year old (a toddler), nevermind hurt to the point where they just can't bear to stay and talk it over. I really think a 2.5 year old is devastated when a person they love just walks out like that, and I think a 2.5 year old would be just as devastated if a person they love explains "I'm leaving b/c you hit me." We are talking about a toddler here. Someone who is just learning about getting along with others. Someone who has been hurt by this same adult grandmother. Someone who is stressed and who was tired to begin with, and who has the coping resources of, well, _a toddler_.

And anyway, I'm guessing that this MIL used the hitting merely as an excuse to be passively aggresssive and mean.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
One visit a week, planned in advance, when ds is well rested and fed, would be generous and thoughtful on your part. If she wants more than that, she can earn it with respectful behavior.

I agree with this. Your MIL's many unannounced visits and dreadful behavior are hurting your family.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Thank you Sledg, for saying what I'm just too frustrated to articulate. Well said!


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I think your two year old is expressing the unspoken tension rife within the situation. While I agree that learning not to hit is perfectly appropriate, I think telling him that grandma left because he hit her is a half truth. The full truth seems to be something like "Grandma left because being hit was the last straw, and an easy scapegoat for the underlying tension between us~ she doesn't respect the way I raise you and I'm sick of her relentless intrusive overbearing visits. The only way I can even stand her is by remaining emotionally detached, but your father thinks she should have free reign to come over any time she pleases, and so you seem to be stuck with this awkward experience almost daily."

But I don't think a two year old can understand that.

While emotional detachment from your MIL is helpful, physical detachment is the key.

heartmama - your post actually brought tears to my eyes, because it's the first time I've been forced to realize that my relationship (or lack thereof) is contributing to my ds's confusion about his own grandmother.

I have already scheduled an appt with my counselor to discuss HOW to handle MIL effectively. Dh has agreed that he will talk with her about the frequency of her visits (once she gets over being passive-aggressive about the whole walking out instance.)

Dh also told MIL that only dh and I should discipline ds and that we will handle it in the future. So, I hope that boundary was clearly set.

For now, that is where I'm going to start. I think this is a bigger issue to handle than "fixing" it all at once. So, baby steps.

And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Offtopic: I still think that the real problem here is that the OP's MIL has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Sledg - I agree with everything you said. Thank you for that.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.
I think everyone here knows that. My concern is that her issues are harming your son. That's abuse, by definition. You and DH are allowing that to happen. Perhaps your point is that he is not being harmed, and well, I just strongly disagree with that.

What will you say to your son when he's older and asks you why GM treated him so badly? Do you think the baby-steps philosophy will help him understand - much less feel better about - why she was allowed _*ever*_ to mistreat him, but that he was "disciplined" for expressing frustration about it?


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I think everyone here knows that. My concern is that her issues are harming your son. That's abuse, by definition. You and DH are allowing that to happen. Perhaps your point is that he is not being harmed, and well, I just strongly disagree with that.

What will you say to your son when he's older and asks you why GM treated him so badly? Do you think the baby-steps philosophy will help him understand - much less feel better about - why she was allowed _*ever*_ to mistreat him, but that he was "disciplined" for expressing frustration about it?

Aira - honestly, if being married to my dh wasn't important to me, then my MIL would have very little to do with my ds. She is not someone who I particularly like. But, overall, she adores ds. Do I think maybe the WAY she treats him may affect his relationship with her later in life? Absolutely, that's why I want to set some boundaries for her, with help from dh so he doesn't resent me, so that ds has a good relationship with her. But, at this point - I'm not willing to end up divorced because I tell my dh that his mom is the spawn of satan and will no longer be allowed in our lives.









I do think that when ds is older, he will have the advantage of constant, consistent GD from me, which I believe will establish a solid base for him. And, hopefully a new "visiting schedule" will help set some boundaries so ds can have a good relationship with her. And if that's not possible, because he doesn't like her, then at least I know I've tried to make the relationship successful.

I know personally, I resent that my parents didn't think have my grandparents involved in my life was important. So, to this day, I talk with them all limitedly - and the conversation is hard, because they really know nothing about me. So, it feels like a catch-22 here. Involved or not involved - niether sounds like a good situation.

I understand what many people are telling me with regard to not needing to be around when MIL visits. But, when she stops by nearly everynight at ds's bedtime - well, it's a bad time for me to leave. AND, I'm not willing to leave my own home because of her. I WOHM Full-time, so really the only time I get quality time with ds is in the am before work and after work in the evenings (in which MIL thinks she needs undivided attention from us all.) I;m not willing to give up that precious bit of time everyday from ds to make things more comfortable for MIL.

And, last point







, ds has been hitting everyone with more consistency, not just MIL. He's been doing it to dh and to me. It's really a phase that he's going through overall, I don't think he targets her (but she is over frequently enough that I"m sure it may seem like it to her.)


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Kids live up - or down - to whatever you expect of them.

A child who is 32 months would typically have a very good sense of conscience about hitting - that it is wrong because it hurts people and makes them feel bad. By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.

I can't even conjure up an image of my 26 month old purposefully pulling the hair of an adult - it would be unfathomable. To be fair, I can't imagine any adult acting so bizarrely with her as the OPs MIL has acted with her son, so clearly we're talking about an unusual situation here.

But in general, a child coming up on the age of 3 is entirely capable of demonstrating empathy for others, and factoring that into their own behaviors. I've always strongly favored this approach and steered completely clear of child centered approaches which teach 'I should not hit because I'm worried about what will happen to ME'. My girl doesn't hit or pull hair entirely because she feels badly about how it hurts the other person or animal, not because of anything to do with what will or won't happen to her. This is at least partly the result of my helping frame these circumstances for her "oh honey! That hurts puppy to pull his tail! Ooh, he's sad now. Do you want to pet him and tell him you're sorry?"

If she pulled grandma's hair instead of puppy's tail, my response would be the same. I'm not sure I understand this point about adults being impervious to hurt feelings. What would be the use in teaching a child that lesson?

I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

First, my relationship with my own MIL is strained, at best. We also have boundary issues which we are working on (they come out in different ways, but are still boundary issues, nonetheless). I appreciate the difficulty of what is happening here, and know how hard it is to change. I am still working on it, so this is as much for me as it is for you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
For now, that is where I'm going to start. I think this is a bigger issue to handle than "fixing" it all at once. So, baby steps.

I very much disagree with the baby steps thing. Sometimes you just need to say, "this far and no more", and be very firm about it. You may (probably will) hurt her feelings. You may (probably will) cause discord within the extended family. You may (probably will) be in the doghouse for quite awhile. However, for the sake of your family, you and your DH must get on the same page and set some clear boundaries around your family. It is the only way to have a good relationship with your MIL.

Second, and this is somewhat controversial, she IS NOT your family. When you and DH got married, you created a new family that includes you, your DH, and any children you bring into that union. Everyone else is now a RELATIVE. They are important, but not urgent. They are important, but not first place. They get the leftovers of your time and energy. If they don't like it, tough cookies, that's their problem. You don't have to be mean and rude about it, just be firm. You are not responsible for their reactions to your boundaries. You are responsible for keeping your family safe.

[/QUOTE]
And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.[/QUOTE]

Third, it doesn't matter if she was raised that way, knows what she is doing, does it subconsciously, etc. She is still doing it, therefore, she is not a safe person (emotionally, physically, etc.) to have around your child who is extremely vulnerable (emotionally, physically, etc.). Don't make excuses for her behavior. You aren't helping her or your child by allowing her to continue in this behavior pattern. Call a spade a spade, deal with it, and keep your family safe. Maybe the firm boundaries you and your DH create can be a catalyst for her to begin to choose healthier behaviors.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.
-----------
But in general, a child coming up on the age of 3 is entirely capable of demonstrating empathy for others
-----------------
I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.

WOW! Without knowing my ds, it's hard to know what exactly you mean by this? I thought it was much later before a child develops empathy for others. Here, I found a link:

http://www.sesameworkshop.org/parent...contentId=573&

"Being empathetic means being able to put yourself into another person's shoes and to experience something just as that other person would. I don't mean to suggest that preschoolers possess the cognitive skills that would let them do this consciously. *The capacity to truly understand what is going on in somebody else's heart and mind doesn't develop until a child is age six or seven.* "

And actually, this is the first phase of hitting my ds has entered. Where exactly is it coming from? I really don't know. Is it his home daycare? Maybe. There are children YOUNGER than him and OLDER than him and one little girl who is the same age. so, it's possible it sees it there and thats why? I don't know.

Dh and I have always taught him to be empathetic. We have 2 dogs and over the course of ds's life, many times he's pulled their tail or stepped on their foot, etc. And, we always explain that "that really hurts Gretchen when you pull her tail, it makes her sad, could you pet Gretchen and tell her your sorry." So, we're not trying to say no "because we said so." And, I've never eluded to that.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gardenmommy*
I very much disagree with the baby steps thing. Sometimes you just need to say, "this far and no more", and be very firm about it. You may (probably will) hurt her feelings. You may (probably will) cause discord within the extended family. You may (probably will) be in the doghouse for quite awhile. However, for the sake of your family, you and your DH must get on the same page and set some clear boundaries around your family. It is the only way to have a good relationship with your MIL.

You know, I agree with you. But, because my dh sees absolutely nothing wrong with the way MIL has handled these two situations - I really have no support from him. - Though I have to add that once I explained how ds probably felt about the situation, he was much more understanding and DID talk with her about how inappropriate her behavior was.

Dh thinks it's fine if anyone wants to stop by anytime and with any frequency they so desire. I, on the other hand, think it's appropriate to call first. Obviously, on occasion, I have no problem with a relative stopping by because they were nearby and wanted to say hi. But at bedtime? Please. She lives minutes away and could easily find out what works for us.

*So, how then, can I approach this in a way to set a "this far and no more" boundary when dh isn't in agreement? He's willing to ask her to cut back on the frequency of visits, but even this is only to appease me.*


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## lissabob (Dec 18, 2005)

I say this from a position of concern and love-

She does all this- the PA behavior (torture) of your child, the unannounced visits... all of it, because YOU let her. You are allowing her to hurt your child and rule your life. In order to stop this you need to get your dh behind you and to support you- otherwise he will go behind your back. Have you considered counselling? If my MIL was bugging me pretty much every single day I would completely and utterly lose it. Boundaries are a GOOD thing. I know Dr Phil is full of it on a lot of things, but I completely agree with what he has to say about IL's-

http://drphil.com/articles/article/28

If you would like I know a great board that will help you steel yourself to deal with this and hopefully get your dh on your side.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
*So, how then, can I approach this in a way to set a "this far and no more" boundary when dh isn't in agreement? He's willing to ask her to cut back on the frequency of visits, but even this is only to appease me.*

Here's what I've done that has really helped my dh and I. My dh cannot see the problem that his MIL causes in our family and our marriage. However, he does acknowlege that there could be one, and he just doesn't get it, so he is willing to listen to me on that topic.

I don't approach him about that subject when we are around our children, because I think that it is inappropriate for them to see us disagreeing on something so fundamental to the stability of our marriage. I wait until we are alone, usually on a date; for me, the important thing is that there isn't any tension between us in other areas. I stick to one thing, the relationship with MIL. I am very respectful of both DH and his mother.

I tell him WHAT I see, HOW I am feeling about it, and WHAT I would like to see happen differently. I try very hard to not get emotional, as that closes the discussion (at least for us), and try to give specific examples of what I am seeing. I tell him how what I am seeing is affecting the children, and what I feel about that.

I seek his input on the subject, and let him know that I really DESIRE to hear his opinion and thoughts. I ask him if he needs some time to think about it, and if we need to "table the discussion" until our next date. I also let him know that if he feels that he cannot take appropriate action, for whatever reason, I will.

For example, we recently had an incident where FIL completely disrespected my authority with my Ds. Dh wasn't around, so I became very firm and stood my ground. FIL was not happy, but too bad. I discussed it with DH, and told him that if we could not resolve it to where it would not happen again, I didn't feel comfortable having our children visit his parents, as I could see the long-term consequences of such incidents snowballing. After we talked about it, Dh saw the truth of what I was saying and agreed that HE needed to set the boundaries, and that he would indeed do so.

Now, we don't always come to such a nice resolution so easily, but the important part is that we try to remember that we are on the same team, try to be respectful of each other, and try to keep working at it until the problem is solved.

Mainly, I would say, just keep reiterating to you Dh that this is a real problem, and don't let it go until you get the results that you need.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
*So, how then, can I approach this in a way to set a "this far and no more" boundary when dh isn't in agreement? He's willing to ask her to cut back on the frequency of visits, but even this is only to appease me.*

Maybe it would be helpful to approach the whole situation with your dh in terms of how you are feeling and what you are needing, without really getting into the appropriateness or lack thereof of your MIL's behavior. Take the time to fully listen to his concerns as well, and to express compassion for and a willingness to try to understand your MIL. My dh and I find that when we are both fully communicating our own feelings, and take the time to really listen to each other, we are able to come to resolutions. This really is about your needs, as you have no control over what kind of person your MIL is. I think it's fine to say, essentially, "this is what I really need in order to feel safe and to find a way to get along with your mother better. I'd really like to improve my relationship with her."


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## Violetmama (Jun 22, 2005)

s momma! It is hard to deal w/ other people's parents - especially in cases like this. I agree w/ lots of advice given above. I just wanted to add that your MIL seems to have the mentality of a 2YO - take comfort in the fact that you will do a good job raising your DS and that someday (probably soon!) his emotional maturity will surpass hers.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I mean this with all due respect, but do you honestly feel your husband would divorce you for setting boundries with what is (imo) abusive behavior towards your son by your mil? I mean, yeah, family is family and I get that, but the family who should come first here is YOUR family -- your dh, the woman he married and pledged his life too, to honor, cherish, put ABOVE ALL OTHERS (that would be you lol) and his son.

I mean, I really don't care for ultimatums and I wouldn't pose one to your husband by all means, but seriously, something has to give. No one can or should be able to force you to have a relationship with someone who obviously upsets you, undermines you and your parenting, and doesn't respect you or the way you parent your son. I would severely cut down on the visits from mil. I would gently but firmly say to my husband that I realize she is his mother and he loves her, that she continuously undermines me as a wife, mother, and woman and I cannot have frequent visits with her, but he is more than welcome to see her whenever he pleases.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I mean this with all due respect, but do you honestly feel your husband would divorce you for setting boundries with what is (imo) abusive behavior towards your son by your mil? I mean, yeah, family is family and I get that, but the family who should come first here is YOUR family -- your dh, the woman he married and pledged his life too, to honor, cherish, put ABOVE ALL OTHERS (that would be you lol) and his son.

Umm, my dh's family is strange at best. They don't have boundaries at all, all are passive aggressive and refuse to communicate any feelings at all. Sometimes, I have no idea how dh managed to grow up in this household. BUT, he does have loyalty to her. He does to me too, but obviously there is friction here and he is always in the middle of it.

Do I think he'd divorce me? No, but do I think that if he's not on board with it, it will damage our marriage? Absolutely. That's what I'm not willing to risk at this point.

I think this will definitely require us to sit down and talk and be ready to hear things we may not want to hear. Which is always difficult







Esp when someone's talking about your own mother


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
...Dh and I have always taught him to be empathetic...So, we're not trying to say no "because we said so." And, I've never eluded to that.

Oops, I should have quoted the remarks I was responding to, which came from sledg, not from you.

I was trying to respond to her comment to me that "it's ridiculous for an adult to be hurt by the actions of a 2.5 yo..." which seemed contrary to teaching a child empathy.

Sorry for the distraction. Please, move on! Sounds like you're getting a lot of good counsel here!


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

GROAN...IL's are so tough.

My IL's used to drop by unannounced ALL the time. They felt they could b/c I was at home during the day AND renting their house. I guess they felt it was their right.

Anyway, once, I came to the door in my robe and looked very irritated. They asked if I was sleeping (2:30 in the afternoon) WTH?? and I said I was back from the gym and getting into the shower. They left.

Another time I said I'm sorry, I can't visit now, I'm on my way out to the grocery store. If you had called first to let me know you were coming over I would have had you in for coffee.

I'm horrendous with avoiding situations that make me feel uncomfortable. But this "Nova Scotian" habit of just dropping in HAD to stop.

I told DH to talk to them. (Which just happened to be at dinner one night) and made everyone uncomfortable. And they knew who was the force behind it.

Remember that it is your house and if it's not a good time, be sure to say that.
You didn't mention if DH is at home when MIL drops by. If he isn't, make up a reason why she can't come in. (it worked for me)
And I agree: if she comes by past 6:30/7:00 at night: it's wind down time. FULL STOP!
This should not be an issue for your DH as it causes issues for your son.
And if it is during the day, explain to DH that YOU are the one who is busy with the house and DS and MIL's frequent unannounced visits disrupt your day, which is frustrating-especially when you have plans that need to be altered/cancelled.

WHY is it so hard for her to call first?? This is a good question for your DH to answer.

What it all comes down to is this: the failure to call demonstrates a clear disregard for you. She is basically saying that your time is not important to her.
This attitude is also evidenced by her treatment of your son. (lack of physical boundaries)
AND (as is the case with my DH) he didn't see any issues with his parents b/c he grew up with them and was used to their non-existant boundaries and smother-love style.
I wasn't and it freaked me out (coming from the other end of the family style spectrum)

This needs to be dealt with soon. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to stop. It's setting a precident.

HUGS-BTDT!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

A child who is 32 months would typically have a very good sense of conscience about hitting - that it is wrong because it hurts people and makes them feel bad. By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.

I am sorry for any normal healthy 32 month old sent to a preschool that viewed hitting this way.

Between the hundreds of posts to ap boards, including this one, homeschool boards, and the real life children I've met, the "normal" hitting window is somewhere between 12 months and 6 years. Easily! Some children begin hitting as early as 9 or 10 months, and some don't give it up completely until closer to 7 or 8.

Adults have such rigid and reactive ideas about hitting. It's important to learn not to hit, and children will learn that, if you don't hit them, and develop an ongoing dialogue in response to the times they do hit. Some children understand this early, while others don't have the impulse control to stop until they are a little older. If your 12 year old is getting into bar fights then maybe you can start worrying about "behavior problems".


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Oops, I should have quoted the remarks I was responding to, which came from sledg, not from you.

I was trying to respond to her comment to me that "it's ridiculous for an adult to be hurt by the actions of a 2.5 yo..." which seemed contrary to teaching a child empathy.

Sorry for the distraction. Please, move on! Sounds like you're getting a lot of good counsel here!









Blessed - I realize you weren't talking to me now, but I have to say that while telling a child that it hurts when they hit you can teach them to be empathetic, I don't believe that an adult should be hurt or upset when a 2.5yo hits them, or says something hurtful. Sure, they can express that it's hurtful - but I really don't think it should be taken personally when it comes from a child this age. My MIL pouts when ds doesn't give her enough attention and tells dh that ds doesn't like her when he tells her to leave (which usually is around bedtime.) And, I really don't think under these circumstances she should take it personally.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

heartmama - your post actually brought tears to my eyes, because it's the first time I've been forced to realize that my relationship (or lack thereof) is contributing to my ds's confusion about his own grandmother.

I am so glad it helped. I cannot count the times that I, or someone here, have noticed children act the worst when the adults are feeling their worst.

And while I agree your own feelings are part of this, remember that his grandmother herself is sending mixed signals. So is daddy. It's all very confusing to him. Which is why if you and dh and the counselor can agree to a set routine with grandma, it will be easier for everyone to start improving their behavior. It's impossible to make progress when her visits are unpredictable. For your sake, one weekly visit means no more surprises. For dh, it means his mother is still involved. For ds, same thing, he gets to know his grandma. For grandma, most of all, one planned visit a week means that visiting isn't an extension of her impulsive need to control. She has to accept this boundary, and in facing that, other things are likely to fall into place. It's just human nature. When she stops associating you with getting her daily "Fix" of unwanted attention, she will have to direct that elsewhere, which leaves room for another side of her to develop in your home.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.

I may not have been clear. I will address this briefly, b/c I think it's off topic in this thread. I don't expect my kids (or teach my kids) to do or not do anything "because I said so." I do teach my toddler (and my older children) empathy. A huge part of teaching my kids empathy is extending empathy to them. Another part is communicating to them how their actions affect others, how others feel about the actions. _But I do not believe that it is normal or appropriate for an adult to feel emotionally hurt by the actions of a child, especially not by the actions of a toddler._ Sometimes a toddler does do something that causes some physical pain and/or something that adults dislike/disapprove of. So I do not tell my children that what they've done hurts the feelings of adults, but I do tell them the following regarding hitting or otherwise exhibiting disrespectful behavior toward adults (among other ways of saying it): "so-and-so doesn't like being hit, she needs to be touched gently."; "Hitting can hurt people's bodies, please touch gently. Use your words to tell us what you need/feel."; "so-and-so doesn't like seeing you stick her tongue out at her, she wants to be treated with respect. Use your words instead."; "I will not let you hit, because hitting hurts." All of that has to also include actually addressing the needs and feelings of the child which led to hitting, and helping them learn to communicate those needs and feelings-and I don't think that leaving in response to being hit teaches either of those things very well, and it doesn't (IMHO) show empathy to the child.

I will tell my children when their actions or words have resulted in another _child's_ feelings (and body) being hurt, b/c children frequently _do_ feel hurt by what other children do and say and this is normal: "ds didn't like it when you yelled at him, being yelled at hurts his feelings and scares him"; "hitting hurts his body and scares him, he needs to feel safe, touch gently."

I do think hitting is normal, age-appropriate (though undesirable) behavior in children of such a young age. It takes time for children to develop empathy-as someone said previously, true empathy doesn't develop until age 6 or 7. I don't expect it from my toddler, though I do communicate how her actions affect others. I am confident that all my kids will develop into empathetic, caring individuals. They show me every day that they are developing these capacities quite nicely.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
Blessed - I realize you weren't talking to me now, but I have to say that while telling a child that it hurts when they hit you can teach them to be empathetic, I don't believe that an adult should be hurt or upset when a 2.5yo hits them, or says something hurtful.

Well, start to teach them. I agree with your link to the Sesame Workshop that this is a brain development issue, and that true empathy doesn't come until older.

Blessed, there may, just possibly, be other reasons your child hasn't hit yet. And I have never in my life heard of a 32 month old being labeled as a problem child because they hit. Based solely on my own experience with young children, 32 months is often nearing the peak of hitting.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
Sure, they can express that it's hurtful - but I really don't think it should be taken personally when it comes from a child this age. My MIL pouts when ds doesn't give her enough attention and tells dh that ds doesn't like her when he tells her to leave (which usually is around bedtime.) And, I really don't think under these circumstances she should take it personally.

This is very strange behavior, it seems very inappropriate for an adult. How do you react when she says something like that?

Heartmama, I







your posts!


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

I was in a similar rut regarding the communication triad with my DH and MIL - she being an intrusive, nosy, opinionated, dominating, overindulgent grandma and showing up at my house far too often. My dd, like your son, also felt the tension in the relationship and began to act out against both of us actually. I have to say that talking too much about it to DH and constantly asking him to mediate really damaged our marriage. He saw me as a judgmental nag and felt torn between the two women he loves most and to whom he feels the most loyalty. Mostly, he felt he had to placate us both, and that did not improve anything because it kept all discussion about it at a superficial level.

So I understood that if I wanted to win the respect of MIL (or at least her willingness to abide by my basic principles), I had to take the responsibility to open communication with her. I had to assert my position as the natural authority in my house, and with my children. Without demonizing her, I told MIL clearly and directly my expectations for her behavior regarding visiting, how she treated my children, and so forth. I shared the principles of my parenting in a positive way and showed her how I wanted her to respond to specific situations. I refused to discuss the relative validity or quality of my methods with her. I then reminded her relentlessly whenever she "forgot" our guiding principles, and after a good struggle she finally accepted it and, though she is still sometimes confused or may even disagree, she is now very respectful of my wishes. She ALWAYS defers to me when she is not sure if I would approve of something or how I would go about it. This took about 6 years of frustration to achieve, but we got here. It would have taken less time if I had just spoken up sooner. We actually almost like each other now! We see her 4-5 times a week, she helps immensely with the childcare, and knows when to leave.

And you know what? Not only have all the relationships between MIL, DH, me and DC improved dramatically on this point, but MIL is actually more open and clear now in her communication with everyone. She is a better listener (used to dominate by talking nonstop) and we are both much more humble with each other. My DH's whole family tiptoed around her for years because she would burst into tears at the slightest hint of criticism. I was the first one to tell her that was unfair and unnecessary. I think that by saying my feelings straight up, I really showed her that I wanted to be on the same team and that I would value her needs too, so she felt safer to be able to express them. All this at the age of 64! It sounds like a lot of your MIL's actions and reactions come from fear, and so helping her feel safe and wanted in the family could help diminish her absurd and immature reactions to your ds's behavior.

So... you may be the person your MIL has been waiting for, to help free her from her own passive-aggressiveness! I hope it all works out for you!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
I think that by saying my feelings straight up, _I really showed her that I wanted to be on the same team and that I would value her needs too, so she felt safer to be able to express them._ All this at the age of 64!

I think this is really important. I truly believe that when people are behaving in ways that hurt others it's because they have unmet needs-they don't really know how to effectively express those needs and arrange for those needs to be met so they express those unmet needs in these ways that others find hurtful/obnoxious/rude/whatever. A hurting animal tends to either hide or lash out, and hurting people are not all that different. I think when people know we're not out to get them and that we really want to work _with_ them and that we do value their needs, and that we are going to be open about our own needs in a compassionate way, relationships can be healed.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

And I have never in my life heard of a 32 month old being labeled as a problem child because they hit. Based solely on my own experience with young children, 32 months is often nearing the peak of hitting.


Completely agree. In fact I nearly used this exact phrase. I think 32 months is a 'peak age', certainly not the final curtain call for hitters!

Ds was at his worst hitting behavior at 32-33 months. He will be ten years old tomorrow. He doesn't remember hitting anyone in his life. Sometime about 3 and a half he calmed down dramatically and I think he was past it all by 4 and half. I've met, oh, hundreds of parents who thought I was lucky he stopped so early.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:



Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.
I may not have been clear. I will address this briefly, b/c I think it's off topic in this thread. I don't expect my kids (or teach my kids) to do or not do anything "because I said so." I do teach my toddler (and my older children) empathy. A huge part of teaching my kids empathy is extending empathy to them. Another part is communicating to them how their actions affect others, how others feel about the actions. But I do not believe that it is normal or appropriate for an adult to feel emotionally hurt by the actions of a child, especially not by the actions of a toddler. Sometimes a toddler does do something that causes some physical pain and/or something that adults dislike/disapprove of. So I do not tell my children that what they've done hurts the feelings of adults, but I do tell them the following regarding hitting or otherwise exhibiting disrespectful behavior toward adults (among other ways of saying it): "so-and-so doesn't like being hit, she needs to be touched gently."; "Hitting can hurt people's bodies, please touch gently. Use your words to tell us what you need/feel."; "so-and-so doesn't like seeing you stick her tongue out at her, she wants to be treated with respect. Use your words instead."; "I will not let you hit, because hitting hurts." All of that has to also include actually addressing the needs and feelings of the child which led to hitting, and helping them learn to communicate those needs and feelings-and I don't think that leaving in response to being hit teaches either of those things very well, and it doesn't (IMHO) show empathy to the child.

I will tell my children when their actions or words have resulted in another child's feelings (and body) being hurt, b/c children frequently do feel hurt by what other children do and say and this is normal: "ds didn't like it when you yelled at him, being yelled at hurts his feelings and scares him"; "hitting hurts his body and scares him, he needs to feel safe, touch gently."

I do think hitting is normal, age-appropriate (though undesirable) behavior in children of such a young age. It takes time for children to develop empathy-as someone said previously, true empathy doesn't develop until age 6 or 7. I don't expect it from my toddler, though I do communicate how her actions affect others. I am confident that all my kids will develop into empathetic, caring individuals. They show me every day that they are developing these capacities quite nicely
OT, but brilliant post sledg, just brilliant *applause* I totally agree. I too, think it is very odd when grown adults claim to be emotionally hurt by the words or actions of toddlers.

Please continue the regularly scheduled discussion....


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

wow. well, my first reaction is that i don't think you need DH's permission or blessing to react to a situation that YOU are in daily. i understand that this is his mother, but you are your son's mother. is that relationship less sacred? i know you don't think it is. i am the most non-confrontational person in my "real life" (not on here though...as you'll see in a minute. LOL), but MIL's behavior is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable. try to get DH on board, sure...but sharing genes with his mother doesn't make him the only person who gets to make the call here. you are YOUR son's MOTHER. you are his advocate. it's gonna suck, it's gonna make things tense, your DH will probably be pissed at you, as will MIL for sure...but this is your little boy. and she's treating him like crap. if for nothing else than for him to see that you will not let someone (no matter WHO they are, or how entrenched in his and his family's life they are) disrespect him like that. but yes, it's gonna suck. it's gonna suck a LOT. and i'm so sorry that she's put you in this position and that your DH can't see past his mommy-goggles to see what she's doing to his son.

and now for my next series of points.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

really? you wouldn't just chalk it up to him being a toddler? having a rough day? what if you had repeatedly made physical roughness a game with him, as her MIL has done? would you really just up and leave? i hope not.

Quote:

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."
eek. that just sounds creepy and manipulative to me. i don't want my 3yo to feel responsible for his grandmother's emotions to that extreme degree. that's a lot of power to give to a toddler who is just trying to figure things out. if it were me, i'd be focusing on the fact that his grandmother left without saying goodbye and how hurtful THAT can be to HIM. not this "see what you get for hitting?" attitude...

Quote:

If instead you respond with something like "I can't _believe_ she left without saying good-bye! Look what it's doing to poor ds!" then ds continues to think only of himself, what he wants, how he is affected, and learns exactly the wrong message.
so it's better to teach him to focus on his grandmother who has repeatedly made him suffer small, snowballing abuses of her power over him? it's better to guide a 2.5yo through a conversation on how his middle aged grandmother needs to be validated and emotionally supported by a person who has been on the planet less time than her undergarments??


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

oi.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
A child who is 32 months would typically have a very good sense of conscience about hitting - that it is wrong because it hurts people and makes them feel bad. By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.

I can't even conjure up an image of my 26 month old purposefully pulling the hair of an adult - it would be unfathomable. To be fair, I can't imagine any adult acting so bizarrely with her as the OPs MIL has acted with her son, so clearly we're talking about an unusual situation here.

ok...so this last part of your post...about how he has been subjected to this ridiculous behavior (in which his own GRANDMOTHER pulled HIS HAIR!) - doesn't that negate everything you said in the beginning? please say that it does. because really, why does it matter what your 26mo would do? i mean really...how is your younger child's behavior have ANY bearing on this matter *whatsoever*? your child doesn't pull someone's hair. ok. great. thanks for sharing. but THIS boy DID do that to his grandmother and SHE PULLED HIS HAIR BACK! IMMEDIATELY this puts him in an ENTIRELY different category. and even if it didn't, i'm sorry, gotta say...what your child does or doesn't do is just plain old irrelevant and only makes this seem like you're comparing your child's magnificence to another's shortcoming. i hope that wasn't your intention.

Quote:

But in general, a child coming up on the age of 3 is entirely capable of demonstrating empathy for others, and factoring that into their own behaviors. I've always strongly favored this approach and steered completely clear of child centered approaches which teach 'I should not hit because I'm worried about what will happen to ME'. My girl doesn't hit or pull hair entirely because she feels badly about how it hurts the other person or animal, not because of anything to do with what will or won't happen to her. This is at least partly the result of my helping frame these circumstances for her "oh honey! That hurts puppy to pull his tail! Ooh, he's sad now. Do you want to pet him and tell him you're sorry?"
well, let's be honest here. you don't actually know why your child doesn't do it. none of us are mind readers. you've used only those words, so you think that's what she's thinking. but she could be doing it to avoid you making a disappointed face because that makes HER feel bad. you really don't know. and can we steer clear of generalizations about what 3yos are "entirely capable" of? generalizations about children are misleading AT BEST. this mama does not need to know what "most 3yos" are capable of, even if you *were* correct about this aspect of child socioemotional development (which, incidentally, you're not).

Quote:

I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.
just when i thought it couldn't get worse. do you read your posts after you hit submit?? were you INTENDING to be so judgmental?? what a grand assumption you've made. suddenly this mama has not ever worked on empathy or conscience?? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE re-read her OP. PLEASE come back and tell me that you REALIZE that this poor child has been subjected to a TON of emotionally and physically damaging behavior by the grandmother you so desperately want him to apologize to. This last part of your post is the most insulting thing i've read on here in a long time. Wow.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:

I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.
In fairness to blessed, the above comment was addressed to me-not to the OP. She was unclear about to whom she was responding, and specified in a later post.


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## lucyem (Apr 30, 2005)

1. A MIL who stops by waaay too much
2. Working on dealing with normal 2 yr old behavior/discipline
3. A husband who is not on the same page as you when it comes to either of the above.

IMO number 3 is the real issue and until you have that resolved 1 and 2 will never be resolved. Take DH to the counselor if you have to. Because until you and he are on the same page so to speak number 1 and number 2 will continue to cause serious issues. And number 3 can really hurt a relationship in the long run. Maybe I am reading this wrong but the way you describe your DH speaking to MIL about her coming over too much, it just seems like he
is either not handling this right with his mother or not supporting you enough to help you deal with her. I know if my MIL walked in the door that much and I felt like my husband was not on my side that it would be way worse as I would feel very much alone.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

yeah, i agree that #3 is a huge deal. but i also really feel that #1 can be taken care of in a few well constructed, very difficult to say, awkward feeling sentences. this parenting thang ain't easy. if it were we wouldn't need MDC except to go on and on about how great and easy it is. and most of us don't do that. LOL!


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
I was in a similar rut regarding the communication triad with my DH and MIL - she being an intrusive, nosy, opinionated, dominating, overindulgent grandma and showing up at my house far too often. My dd, like your son, also felt the tension in the relationship and began to act out against both of us actually. I have to say that talking too much about it to DH and constantly asking him to mediate really damaged our marriage. He saw me as a judgmental nag and felt torn between the two women he loves most and to whom he feels the most loyalty. Mostly, he felt he had to placate us both, and that did not improve anything because it kept all discussion about it at a superficial level.

So I understood that if I wanted to win the respect of MIL (or at least her willingness to abide by my basic principles), I had to take the responsibility to open communication with her. I had to assert my position as the natural authority in my house, and with my children. Without demonizing her, I told MIL clearly and directly my expectations for her behavior regarding visiting, how she treated my children, and so forth. I shared the principles of my parenting in a positive way and showed her how I wanted her to respond to specific situations. I refused to discuss the relative validity or quality of my methods with her. I then reminded her relentlessly whenever she "forgot" our guiding principles, and after a good struggle she finally accepted it and, though she is still sometimes confused or may even disagree, she is now very respectful of my wishes. She ALWAYS defers to me when she is not sure if I would approve of something or how I would go about it. This took about 6 years of frustration to achieve, but we got here. It would have taken less time if I had just spoken up sooner. We actually almost like each other now! We see her 4-5 times a week, she helps immensely with the childcare, and knows when to leave.

And you know what? Not only have all the relationships between MIL, DH, me and DC improved dramatically on this point, but MIL is actually more open and clear now in her communication with everyone. She is a better listener (used to dominate by talking nonstop) and we are both much more humble with each other. My DH's whole family tiptoed around her for years because she would burst into tears at the slightest hint of criticism. I was the first one to tell her that was unfair and unnecessary. I think that by saying my feelings straight up, I really showed her that I wanted to be on the same team and that I would value her needs too, so she felt safer to be able to express them. All this at the age of 64! It sounds like a lot of your MIL's actions and reactions come from fear, and so helping her feel safe and wanted in the family could help diminish her absurd and immature reactions to your ds's behavior.

So... you may be the person your MIL has been waiting for, to help free her from her own passive-aggressiveness! I hope it all works out for you!

sphinx - I loved how you handled the situation - and that's what I keep dreaming will happen. I've actually discussed with dh taking him completely out of this situation and letting me have a heart-to-heart conversation about our parenting philosophy, the importance of "family" time to me (the 3 of us) and discussing the dropping by, my attitude toward it and how I think our relationship - or lack thereof, is contributing to ds's lashing out - he's confused and feels stuck in the middle. That is exactly what I would love to do.

But, this woman is so stoic, judgemental, passive-aggressive, etc that it seems a daunting task. But, I have an appointment with my counselor on Tuesday, and hopefully he can help me set up a good game-plan.

Thanks everyone - I really have enjoyed reading your advice.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peilover010202*
But, this woman is so stoic, judgemental, passive-aggressive, etc that it seems a daunting task. But, I have an appointment with my counselor on Tuesday, and hopefully he can help me set up a good game-plan.

Thanks everyone - I really have enjoyed reading your advice.

Good luck! I just want to add that I've gotten along a lot better with my in-laws since the birth of my first child. I think it propelled us into our own relationships, as the mother of the grandchild, as the grandmother of my child, etc., instead of just as a peripheral relationship that focused mainly on my dh. I remember feeling a lot more ownership, if that makes any sense at all.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

I just wanted to thank everyone here because I finally got up enough courage to talk to my MIL myself. No more waiting for dh to understand my need for boundaries with his mother.

So, last night, I told MIL that we needed to talk and I told her that for me as a person, to be happy in my life, there are certain things that are important and that I need. And, one of those things was time with the family I created with dh. That, because I work WOHM FT, I have very little time to reconnect with my ds and dh each day and so the time I have is very important to me.

I explained that unannounced visits make that time difficult to come by and when she drops by, there are times that it's NOT a good time, for whatever reason.

I told her I want her to feel welcome in my home, but that I need time with my family too. I stressed the importance of her relationship with ds and that I hoped to develop a better relationship with her over time.

Then, I asked for 2 things:

1. for her to always call before coming by
2. for her to understand that when she calls, there may be times that it's a BAD time

She tried really hard to understand and at the end, she said she understands my need to spend time with my family, but she said she was lonely (she lost her mother in December.)

I told her my goal was not to alienate her or contribute to her loneliness, but that I needed certain things in my life to be happy and time with my family is at the top of that list.

I left it at that and she said she'd do her best. So, now I just have to be strong enough to make her hold to her word


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

yay for you! maybe this will help heal her treatment of your son, if not, then you can tackle that issue!
just keep deep breathing!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Well done!


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

wow, that's fantastic!!! i'm sure it was an awkward, difficult conversation...i hope she's able to keep it up!!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Something that could help her keep her promise and would be a nice gesture from you, would be if you could make some sort of regular visting time for her each week. Like, even if life is busy and you haven't had time for her all week, she'll know she can come over to your house for lunch on Saturday or something. Knowing she'll get at least that time should make it easier for her not to be pushy at other times, y'know?


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

Phew, good job! I bet you are relieved that it went so well! I agree with sapphire, maybe if you make an effort to "reward" her if she sticks to her word, she will keep sticking with it!

Congratulations!


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

You did what I couldn't do. Well done!
And because you said "this is what I NEED" it didn't come across as nasty or I don't want you here.
It was honest and didn't place any blame on her.
SUPER JOB!


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

sapphire - You bring up a good point, and I am even contemplating asking her to go on a trip to the Children's Museum this weekend. But, if I get a little too selfish for that - then we'll make plans to do something with her on Saturday. Thanks


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Well done! I should do the same with my own MIL!


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

you were amazing!!!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

To the OP - way to go!!

To aira, heartmama, sledg...you mamas rock. Awesome posts!

To sphinx: wonderful story and excellent advice.


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