# For the first time i wonder if i should seek help from a child psycologist :(



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Maybe it's me and my problem, maybe i am not handling things properly. I am just as my end and i lost my temper in the middle of the night last night. this might get long.

I did all the baby b's of attachment parenting read many of the books recommended by mom's on this site. We have be co sleeping in the same bed since she was about two months old. For the first two months of her life she slept in an arm's reach cosleeper. We moved her into our bed around two months of age.

She transitioned of her own free will to her big girl bed at age two. I did some bed hopping, but i felt she was on her way to becoming fully independent in her own room.

The problem is that she has never been able to just lay down and fall asleep. We have always held her on our shoulder to for her to sleep.

I nursed her until nearly her third birthday.

Somewhere around two and a half i told her i couldn't rock her anymore because my shoulder and daddy's hurt too bad. It was the truth.

I laid in bed with her for two weeks. Every night she flipped and flopped for 2-3 hours unable to lay down and an go to sleep. I did not rock her for those two weeks. MAn that was a suffering for us both. I had a routine in place, but it didn't prepare her for relaxing to lay down. Then i tried sitting in a chair with her in bed. Nope.

HER PROBLEM IS THAT SHE WILL NOT LAY DOWN. I don't know if it is too much energy or what. I stopped purposely giving her naps so that she would fall a sleep at night. I had to rock her for her naps too. She is too heavy to hold anymore. Our shoulders hurt permanently.

So I began to think that *I* was too much stimulation and that if i wasn't around it would help. Daddy tried to do it, but he wasn't structured enough to keep a routine. That did not work at all.

So as a last ditch effort, I read Ferber's latest book. I don't think i am supposed to talk about it on this forum, so i don't know what to say. It was horrible. She did fall asleep quickly, but she had stressful poop every night, several times at bed time. Kind of like when you have to give a speech and it makes you go poop a lot. At dusk her belly would hurt and she would go poop several times. I did his method for 12 long days and at the end i had a child afraid of bugs and monsters. And she began biting her nails. I feel horrible about it.

So she came fully back to bed with us. I felt i needed to help her heal from that incident. It took about a month, but she is no longer afraid and she does not bite her nails.

When I refuse to rock her now, she flips and flops and gets up out of our bed. I started giving her timeouts for getting out of bed. It's just crazy. I lay there WITH her and she doesn't want to lay down. It is like she is afraid to lay down and close her eyes. I got a sesame street dvd about helping them sleep. Big bird gives a bunch of ways to help them relax and what they can do to help them selves go to sleep. She only watched it once and didn't want to watch it again. But i did implement some of the relaxation methods with her to no avail.

It's like she requires movement to fall asleep. She has always done this little scrunchy thing with her legs while we rock her.

If i get up before her in the AM she comes and tells me it hurts her feelings that i left her alone in the bed. I have no idea what to do next. I am 9 weeks pregnant and my husband thinks we need to help her get in her own room before # 2 arrives.

Do i need a professional to help me, like a child psycologist. I am just so distraught over it all. Thank you if you made it all the way through. I tried not to leave anything out so that you wouldn't suggest anything i have already done.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm no expert, so please take my advice with a grain of salt. Is there anyway you could get a big comfy glider to rock her to sleep in? My dd is a big 2 year old (33 lbs and 38" tall) and there is plenty of room in our glider for her to sort of snuggle up next to me. I don't have to hold her the whole time. We have a dutalier. I see them at thrift stores all the time. Other than that I don't know. This is hard! One other thing I would say is that you may want to get DH to do all the nighttime stuff now. I'm 15 weeks pregnant and DH has totally taken over nighttime. At first it was awful. DD would scream for her mommy. But now, she just whimpers a little and crawls onto DH's chest and passes out. He gets her to sleep in under ten minutes. It used to take me 45 minutes of nursing to get that kid to sleep. Also we aren't going to worry about getting DD in her own bed before the baby comes. It's just not a big priority for us. We have a king size bed so I figure we have the room. Is that an option for you? I know for us it has taken a lot of pressure off. I know your DD was sleeping independently so that may seem like major back tracking to you. I doubt that you need to see a child psychologist. I think a lot of kids have trouble sleeping. If it would make you feel better maybe you should see one, but your DD sounds pretty typical to me. Good luck!


----------



## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

My DS is a few months younger and it takes him a while to stop flopping around and get comfy too. He sleeps in a toddler bed, sidecarred to our bed. He gets a few minutes to flop around while we lay next to him, then he needs to lay still and try to relax. If he keeps flopping around we move to the other side of the bed. We probably say "you need to lay still to fall asleep" a zillion times and if we didn't have DS2 in there too I'd probably leave the room for a bit if he continued to flop around. I would try just being really consistant, it's time to lay down and go to sleep. Over and OVER and OVER. And if you're getting really frustrated, step out of the room for a minute. At 3 I don't think you need to (or really could) do CIO like with a baby and they're certainly old enough to understand you can't rock them anymore and they need to lay in bed. I'd treat it like any other, boundary testing, 3 year old behavior and help her lay down as many times as necessary until she got it.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Friday,What do you mean by help her lay down? I tried the physical laying her down and it was horrible. She became combative and pinching and so angry. that's when she was 2 1/2 and i decided to just lay there with her, which was 2-3 hours long. ME laying there in the dark for 2-3 hours for 2 weeks straight. She never improved. I understand the testing of boundaries, but it seems like this is in a different ballpark. I mean that she almost seems incapable of just laying down and closing her eyes. She has to be moving at all time. She just keeps saying to me, I can't fall asleep. I say the same thing over and over. You have to lay down to fall asleep. YOU have to close your eyes to fall asleep. You have to learn how to fall asleep and mama will teach you. She just keeps moving, flipping, flopping, complaining, getting up...until i break down and rock her. The worst is when she wakes in the night and begins to cry to be rocked and i have NO strength to do it. The easiest and fastest is if i rock her to sleep. The recliner would be nice, but it keeps the problem going. I just think at 3 1/2 I should have been able to teach her how to get in HER bed and lay herself down for sleep. sigh. I feel like such a failure at this. Even if she stayed in MY bed, i think she should be able to lay herself down and stay there. For crying out loud, what ever bed it is, please LAY DOWN! What makes me so mad is that I thought cosleeping was the best way to get a child to develop a healthy trust and eventually a healthy independence to do it themselves. That's what attachment parenting method claims to do. I have a lot of friends and all did the crib and all kids just lay down and go to sleep. Still in my heart, i believe that biologically the best place for baby to be is right next to mama, but the outcome is not what i thought. NOW number 2 is coming and it is causing me to consider a crib, but still in my heart i don't think that is the best place especially to prevent SIDS. Basically to stop her need for rocking i just have to stop and never cave in no matter if it takes 3 hours for her to fall asleep. That is what i tried at 2 1/2 for two weeks of suffering, and i finally decided maybe she was too young. Now at 3 1/2 maybe i should try that again. I realize that when i try something i should do it for at least 2 weeks, but when it doesn't improve AT ALL i think it not right or she is too young. Maybe i need to give it 30 days? Thanks to both of your for responding, i don't want to seem like i don't appreciate it, but it just seems like i have done it all already with no improvement. I just want to think outside the box and i can't see the solution. The only solution to me is to let her sleep with us forever. Hubby has gone along so far, but he really would prefer that she goes to her own bed. I am in between and could go either way. Why is this so hard?


----------



## quantumleap (Apr 13, 2006)

You sound desperate, and believe me, I've been there! Completely irrationally, our dd started sleeping a LOT better AFTER the birth of her little brother. We also had to rock her every single time, but now dh can just rock for a minute or two and then lie down with her, and night time wakings only involve telling her to lie down, or her crawling on to dh's chest. Hang in there, it will get better, or you will adapt. Try to just deal with the problem at hand - there's time later to panic about how things will be with the new baby!

Re the motion thing - would you consider letting her sleep in a hammock? Would that be to radical of a departure from a bed for her to settle? You can get eye hooks that screw in to studs (corners are good places to anchor them) at the hardware store. The hooks rated to 250lbs are about 3$. I'm sure you can find a hammock yourself, and they're actually quite comfortable. It took me a good while to get used to beds again after I slept in a hammock in Central America for several months. Initially, you could rock it, but eventually, she'll be able to give a little kick or whatever and get it swinging herself. It might work.


----------



## SustainablParentng (Apr 15, 2008)

One idea that I can think of that helps my ds and dd is to make sure they get plenty of outdoor playtime during the day - like a good couple hours of running and active play (either at a playground with other kids or bike riding or kite flying or tag etc.) I know the weather hasn't been the most pleasant for this but it truly helps us.

Another line of thought that I wanted to throw out there (and let me apologize in advance if this is so what you do not want to hear right now) is the fact that we do not "teach" our children how to sleep. It's a requirement for life like breathing and does not need to be taught. Unfortunately our society has expectations for infant/child sleep that do not align with human biology. So what this makes us do is struggle and fight with our lo's until they finally "learn" how to sleep like adults. I am in no way trying to find fault with you or what you have done I simply feel that so many of us adults find fault with normal childhood behaviors because of some false expectation that we have. Sure you can "train" an infant to sleep on it's own through the night through different techniques of what basically amounts to baby torture - but you chose the more caring and biologically appropriate way of dealing with nighttime parenting. For me, whenever it feels like I'm just banging my head against the wall because of some behavior or situation that is not working with my children I find it helpful to just simply try to change my perspective. This is especially true with sleep because as we all know you simply cannot force or make someone sleep.

Also, so much is going to change between now and the arrival of your new baby - try not to stress too much about it.

Again, I apologize if this is soooo not what you want to hear but sometimes we have to be reminded that the only thing we truly control is ourselves so if it is change we seek then maybe we need to change our selves (or our expectations &/or perspective)


----------



## dairy2dogs (May 1, 2006)

Is your dh handy? There is a rocking bed video on youtube. A man rigged up a regular twin size bed so it rocks back and forth. I think the hammock is a good idea too. My siblings and I slept in hammocks when camping as kids. I remember really loving it. My mom made them.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

What happens if you just let her stay up until she passes out? Maybe she gets tired and hysterical and demands to be rocked, I dunno, just figured I would ask. I would rather let my kid stay up really late than spend 2-3 hrs a night laying in the dark pleading with them to calm down, stay still and fall asleep. Maybe a quiet activity, or a DVD, even? Do you have a set bedtime? Or do you start this routine once she is ready to go to sleep? Or is she not really ready at that point?

Hope you get some helpful advice here. Hang in there; as rough as it is, at least you know it won't be forever. I, too, would be a bit stressed though with a new baby on the way. Night-time parenting with two can be challenging, even without sleep issues. There was a year when I was tandem nursing two and I swear I didn't sleep more than an hour at a time.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Selkat, interesting thought about the hammock. My dh will think it's crazy, but it's not him getting up with her and rocking her all the time. he helps when i am too tired, but it's usually me. I'll bring it up just to see his reaction. Dairy, dh is not handy at all, but if we had the money we could probably hire someone to do it. Interesting idea as well. I have tried to show her how to lay on her side and rock a little. I do this when i am fidgety and cannot calm down. Sustainable, no apology necessary. I understand the principle and i have always felt that there are some things you can't make a kid do, nor should you have to, that is, poop, eat and sleep. These three things i always felt were in the biological realm and it was my job to create a healthy atmosphere for pooping, eating, and sleeping and it would happen naturally. Well 2 outta 3 ain't bad, i guess. She's got the pooping and eating down pat. Now, sustainable, i am not so sure if there isn't some teaching involved. I teach her about food and what is healthy and even told her that sometimes pooping hurts, but it's all better as soon as it is out. sorry, tmi, but i think there is a lot of teaching going on in every area of a child's life, even sleeping. I have been teaching her by showing her how i lay down and close my eyes and think happy thoughts or count. Maybe we are thinking of different things. I was never comfortable with training in the sense of letting her cry. However, i have heard mom's say that their kiddo needs to flop and fuss for a few minutes before they settle in to sleep. Well, i never ever let her even fuss for a minute to see if that is what she needed. I always held and rocked and nursed. Wondering if i should have tried letting her flop and fuss a bit while being with her just to see if that is what she needed.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

oops in my last post i addressed three of you but it's not that clear because somehow there are no paragraphs. hope you all see it


----------



## bonamarq (Oct 18, 2006)

I have always been a 'mover' when falling asleep - my parents certainly didn't rock me so I rocked myself - I did this every single night and throughout the night when in light sleep - I did this until, as an adult I slept with my partner in bed and knew I couldn't - for a long time I would even 'revert' to it when ever I was alone in bed for a few nights

Now I find myself HAVING to rub my feet under the covers to get myself to sleep -

the point of all of this is maybe you dd is like me - and you need to teach her to use some sort of acceptable movement that will allow her to fall asleep - I would perhaps try this while you lay down next to her - and let her know you are not angry with her or impatient - I lay down with my dd and ANY time I am impatient and eager to get her to sleep 'quick' it's like she picks right up on that and takes twice as long....

and ditto to what pp said about lots of good physical activity during the day - I would also try a good massage after lights out and just before you lay down... teach dh to do this too so it doesn't always fall to you

good luck

OH and don't beat yourself up over how you have 'created' this - chances are she'd have been a really terrible sleeper no matter what...


----------



## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

It sounds like you're trying to make 2 transistions, getting her back in her room and getting her to sleep without rocking on your shoulder. Work on one at a time. I'd start putting her in her room first--and stay with her if you need to until she feels secure in there again. Then start on the rocking thing.

Someone asked above if you have a rocking chair big enough for her to sit next you--can you do that? That would start weaning her off of being ON you while she rocks. She'll still get the motion and the comfort of you being next to her, but it will start changing the routine.

Does she have a lovey or something? If not, I'd start letting her pick one doll/animal/blanket to snuggle with as she falls asleep. What you're looking for is a way for her to start learning to comfort herself without rocking, but if you're not giving her any alternatives it's really hard for her to learn.

Once you have these things in place, I'd start putting her down in her bed just before she falls asleep. If that starts to wake her up and she can't relax again, I'd sing lullabies or put on white noise the next time to help the transition to bed from the rocker. Comforting sounds might help substitute for the comfort of the rocking. After she can make this transition, you can slowly start putting her to bed earlier & earlier in the rocking routine, until it feels right to you or you stop rocking.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Drummer's wife, I have let her stay up, but she just gets more and more wound. I thought she would pass out, but she WILL NOT LAY DOWN. I went all the way to midnight once. She had not had a nap and she was still going strong. She has never fallen asleep sitting in my lap or at the dinner table. You know how some kids fall asleep in their mashed potatoes, nope, she has never just gotten tired and fell asleep. We tried the dvd in bed to see if she would fall asleep. It is too exciting for her and anyway she won't lay down to watch it. The child does not lay down, ever. This is what i meant earlier by it seems like she's almost incapable of laying down. I am watching a friend's kids this weekend. She was so excited to sleep in the living room in her sleeping baq with the other two girls. She would not lay down. She wanted to sit in her sleeping bag. Finally i laid down on the floor and convinced her to lay down in it. She got in, and told me to go to my room. She would sleep with the two girls. I went to my room and i didn't even finish my sentence telling dh the plan, and she was crawling in my bed asking to be rocked. Thanks again for all the tips and understanding. It feels good to just be able to talk it out and see that others have been through similar things.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Spring lily, all great suggestions. Sounds like some ideas from no cry sleep solution book. I have never been able to put her down drowsy either. I forgot to say that i tried the music, eventually she said she didn't like it anymore. I tried telling her she can play, turn lights on, listen to music as long as she stayed in her room. She will not do it. She won't stay in her room. I tried sitting in the hallway while she falls asleep. Nope, she gets up. Yes, i do have a good routine in place. That is the first step, according to all the experts, that you have to have a routine for them to get ready for sleep. It didn't make a difference. She's is not going to just easily lay down and sleep. I am really not trying to be difficult here. I am absolutely at a loss. I knew you ladies would have great ideas. It's just that i have read these forums so much and read so many of the books you have read and i have tried it all, except the hammock and the rocking bed thing! LOL Now i am wondering if i tried these things too late in the game or too early or not long enough. I feel like now all i can do is go back and revisit some of these methods now that she is older. uhg. IF she gets tired she demands to be rocked and cries until it happens. I have waited her out before and it was anywhere from a half and hour to and hour of screaming. I don't have a rocking chair. I sit in my high back chair with arms and i rock her while she does her scrunchy leg thing. It usually takes anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes. Then i transfer her to my bed. If she wakes before i go to bed, she gets up to look for me and i start all over. I have asked her several times if she would like to try letting mama help her sleep in her big girl bed again. She says she wants to do it when she is 4! Part of me is thinking, wait, who's in charge here???


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Sping lily, i forgot to say that you are right. I do want to make two transitions. I had started with the rocking first which is when she flipped and flopped for two to three hours with me laying next to her. She was 2 1/2. Maybe i should try it again. It has been a year since then.

At first i thought to break the rocking first and let her keep sleeping in my bed and then once that is in place, work on her sleeping in her bed. OR i could do both at the same time. Go to bed with her in her room and slip out. I have done this. What happened is i got so tired of bed hopping. I was taking her back to her bed every time, but i have to lay down with her. That means i will fall asleep and be in her bed for awhile. Eventually this gets so tiring. it never ends. it seems all is impossible--i'm just buried under all the considerations of this way and that way of doing things.

Dh and i put a double bed and a twin bed together to make a huge bed on the floor. I believe this is bigger than a king. Technically we could all fit even with # 2 baby coming, but do we really want that? She already sleeps sideways and kicks us or burrows under us. I also feel there is some value in her getting comfy in her own room. The thing is that i didn't want to push it. I just thought it would occur naturally, yeah right!


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

i sound really pessimistic. i guess in this area, i am. you all are trying to help and i'm just a downer. just wanted you all to know that i appreciate the time and effort of you writing back to me.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

A couple of thoughts:

Another option -- what happens if you lie there with her but don't say anything? Dh and I spent a year or two lying on the floor while our kids fell asleep. I'd bring a book and get some reading done. Dh would bring his laptop. This was key in helping us not feel frustrated. It took them anywhere from 20-40 minutes to fall asleep and some days it was an hour. Yes, it was maddening at times. It still takes them that long to fall asleep, but now they're old enough to read to themselves. Then they get up (one last time) to say goodnight to us, and go to sleep. But they couldn't do that without our presence at age 3. When they were older (5 and 8), we implemented a plan where we gradually reduced the amount of time we spent with them, and then we set the timer to check on them. So, we'd set the timer for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20. As long as they were still in bed, we'd go in and check on them, give them a quick back rub and leave.

One thing that struck me in your post is that your dd is a sensory seeker. Does she get lots of activities during the day that involve her vestibular system? (swinging, spinning -- a sit 'n spin or dizzy disc (more expensive but works with older kids)). Another thing that really helps kids with a high need for sensory input is a weighted blanket. Something like this. You might want to read up on sensory issues to see if any of it applies to your dd -- Raising a Sensory Smart Child and Growing an In Sync Child have some good activities; The Out of Sync Child has a good overview.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> A couple of thoughts:
> 
> ...


I bet this will all be helpful to try, OP.

I was thinking when I posted that maybe an evaluation with an OT would be better than a psychologist.


----------



## syn_ack89 (Oct 1, 2007)

Can you see about getting a sleep study done?

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/slpst/slpst_whatis.html


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Yes, lynn and drummer...i didn't put this in my OP because i was already writing a novel. lol I have a friend who is an OT and she has given me some tips. My OT friend is a strong CIO believer and so i can't really talk to her about sleep. I do think she has mild sensory issues. When she was a toddler she didn't like other kids brushing up against her. She still isn't too keen on folks invading her space unless invited. And, she does this clenching thing with her hands and teeth. She squeezes me, my arm, or my hand especially when she gets tired. She does this over and over when she is tired or overstimulated. She'll run around and climb the furniture and then run into me hard and squeeze me. She likes to run into me or bang on me. She'll fall over and purposely bang her head on me. It hurts! She does not stop moving. I always assumed little girls were calm and boys were rowdy. So not true! She is an only child, but I go somewhere everyday for her to get interaction with others. In warm weather we go to a park everyday and most times we meet church friends with little kids. I have a lot of friends with kids her age so we go to each other's houses all the time. She asks to go see her friends too. On rainy days we head to the mall play area. I am a firm believer in lots of activity. I let her jump on my bed because it is low to the ground and old. My furniture is used and old and she can climb, slide all over it. My OT friend gave me exercises to do with her. Things like squeezing massage, wrestling and rough play, brushing her arms and legs. Funny i had forgotten about these things. Lynn, your kids would finally fall asleep and stay asleep all night? Mine won't stay asleep. She was a frequent night nurser and even when i weaned her a little before her third birthday, it didn't help her to stay asleep. She still will wake 3-4 times a night if i am not next to her. Having her sleep with us lets me get rest because i think she wakes, checks if i am there, and goes back to sleep. Anyway, it seems that maybe i should see an OT? I am a little skeptical of seeing a child psychologist because i have this concept that he/she will give me sleep training ideas such as Ferber. I am not interested in that. Thanks again. Lynn it's good to hear that at three they are a litttle young for such independence. I was wondering if i am expecting too much. it's hard to see my good friends put their kids in bed and they stay there...makes me think i did something wrong.


----------



## maryeb (Aug 8, 2005)

Oh, she sounds so much like my first boy! He really started to settle himself at about 4. He also started holding his pee all night then too....it's like a switch turned on and lots of stuff he previously wasn't doing started happening without us interfering. Before that he needed motion for sleep too. I love the idea of the hammock!

My first thought was, is she running around outside like crazy and getting all her energy out? I remember taking my first on at least 3 neighborhood walks a day, one or two if we went to a park that day. Even just a couple blocks up and down did the trick and really helped him work all that excess steam out. I agree with the couple of posters that mentioned sensory seeking-I would also check into that.

Some things that have helped me with my first are: Knowing that I can only control myself. Bedtime is consistent and after he has worn himself out running/jumping, etc. Bedtime snack of something like goat cheese-no fruit or anything super light. Giving him a really warm washcloth and washing his feet too-very relaxing. Words I use when he wakes up scared and won't fall back asleep: you are safe, I am nearby, tell your mind to be quiet and slow down (his mind never ever stops going), feel your body become heavy and sink into the bed...repeat...it works many times. Massaging his feet or back and using a lavendar scented oil or spray on his pillow. If I had to stay long in his room to help him sleep I would bring a book or something of the like so I didn't go crazy. Sometimes I bring in my mat and do some yoga. Anything to help!

Also know that to me it sounds normal! My second isn't like my first at all, so I would save energy and not think about what this baby will be like sleep wise. It's not totally in your control. We used a mattress on the floor for both boys to transition them and we all loved it. I don't think it made the process any longer for us. Good luck Mama!!!


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shami*
> 
> Yes, lynn and drummer...i didn't put this in my OP because i was already writing a novel. lol I have a friend who is an OT and she has given me some tips. My OT friend is a strong CIO believer and so i can't really talk to her about sleep. I do think she has mild sensory issues. When she was a toddler she didn't like other kids brushing up against her. S*he still isn't too keen on folks invading her space unless invited. And, she does this clenching thing with her hands and teeth. She squeezes me, my arm, or my hand especially when she gets tired. She does this over and over when she is tired or overstimulated. She'll run around and climb the furniture and then run into me hard and squeeze me. She likes to run into me or bang on me. She'll fall over and purposely bang her head on me. It hurts! She does not stop moving*.


I'd definitely pursue an evaluation by an occupational therapist before I'd seek an evaluation by a psychologist. My son was in OT for several years, and while he doesn't have sleep issues (other than he simply needs less sleep than other children his age), it made a huge difference. It's really working with the body to train the brain pathways to process sensory input better.

Quote:


> Lynn, your kids would finally fall asleep and stay asleep all night? Mine won't stay asleep. She was a frequent night nurser and even when i weaned her a little before her third birthday, it didn't help her to stay asleep. She still will wake 3-4 times a night if i am not next to her. Having her sleep with us lets me get rest because i think she wakes, checks if i am there, and goes back to sleep. Anyway, it seems that maybe i should see an OT? I am a little skeptical of seeing a child psychologist because i have this concept that he/she will give me sleep training ideas such as Ferber. I am not interested in that. Thanks again. Lynn it's good to hear that at three they are a litttle young for such independence. I was wondering if i am expecting too much. it's hard to see my good friends put their kids in bed and they stay there...makes me think i did something wrong.


Um... I'll confess, no. So, we've created a little space on each side of the bed for the kids. Dd has a permanent nest with a pillow and a blanket right next to my side of the bed. Like your dd, she was a frequent night nurser. We night weaned her at 3, but she'd still wake up and climb over me and into bed. At 4 we had to move her out of our bed because she was too big and was getting too hot. And when she's hot, she kicks the covers off. OK if she's by herself. Not OK if she's sleeping next to us. So, we spent a lousy couple of months trying to get her to sleep all night in her own bed -- taking her back, staying with her and falling asleep on her floor so she'd go back to sleep. After a few weeks I thought "why the heck am I sleeping on the floor? If my kids need to be close to me, they can sleep on the floor." So, we taught them to come in to our room, and simply find their spot on the floor. Ds does this about once every 2 weeks, usually when he has a bad dream.. Dd does this every night. As long as she doesn't wake me up, I don't care. Ds went through a period where he needed to come into our room every night, and it's drastically decreased after age 8. I'm hoping for the same change with dd.

One thing to know is that nearly everyone wakes 3-4 times a night. We just don't notice it, or we train ourselves to simply roll over and go back to sleep. Her behavior isn't unusual. The hard part is that she's waking you. If you can find a way around the waking you up part, and a way for her to go to sleep without major drama, then I wouldn't worry that you can't put her in bed and walk away, or that she doesn't sleep all on her own at night. In much of the world, that's not even an option, let alone an expectation. So, I do think some teaching is in order. You're not teaching her how to sleep, but how to let YOU sleep even though she wakes. That's a matter of manners/living with other people.

I suspect, FWIW, that dd may have mild sleep apnea, and if she continues to wake frequently I'm going to have a sleep study done. Dh has very severe sleep apnea (he was waking something like 150 times an hour when they did his sleep study), and a CPAP machine has made a huge difference to him. If the sensory stuff doesn't work, and if she can't learn to not wake you up, then I'd consider a sleep study.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Lynn it was so good to hear about your experience. Sounds so logical. So, I have to teach her how to not wake me up. I have to figure out how to help her feel safe and comfy without waking me up. And on a side note: her dad has sleep apnea and uses a cpap machine. I have noticed her grinding her teeth while she sleeps. Gives me the shivers just typing it! lol So i guess i should not expect her to not wake up. I have to figure out how to help her wake up and go back to sleep without me. hmm. Sounds like a long road ahead. Well, as long as i feel like i am doing something to help the situation. Thank you so much. starting to feel a twinge of hope again. I am assuming i have to have a referral from my pediatrician for an ot eval? I think we will have her help pick out some new bedding and start laying down in her room with her. Still not sure if i should focus only on no rocking while she is in my bed or do the whole sha-bang. No rocking and falling asleep in her room at the same time. Any opinions on that? Did you say that you were sleeping on the floor? Was that so they would not be used to you sleeping in their bed? A previous poster said they read or were on the laptop in their child's room while they fell asleep. When i tried that she practically attacked me, climbed all over me, choking me, trying to get me to hold her/rock her. Yeah i can be totally quiet, but she will accost me until i respond. I can't let her beat me up. lol ...can't believe i am typing this.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

uhg! my post is all one big paragraph...what's up with that?? sorry, it's harder to read like that in my opinion


----------



## mtnlisa (Dec 2, 2009)

Shami, re: OT evaluation--you can always have this done privately, but the school district should provide evaluations through Childfind--I believe you mentioned you have a friend who is an OT and she would better know how things work in your community. Typically, a parent can make a referral to the school district (if your dd is now over 3 y--if not yet 3 then there may be another agency that handles evaluations) They are designed to evaluate whether a child has special needs that will necessitate support in a school setting. I don't think your child has needs like this, however, I do think that an evaluation (which is free through childfind) would give you information about her sensory system and hopefully the OT can provide ideas for you to help her (if it turns out that she does have some sensory needs that aren't being met during the day). If you decide to have a childfind evaluation, you do have the right as a parent to request/ensure that there is an OT on the evaluation team. As a special educator I have worked with a lot of children with all different kinds of sensory needs. You probably meet a lot of them during the day ( and probably this is why you began rocking her in the first place--parents just know what their children need) but additional ideas might be really helpful.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shami*  Any opinions on that? Did you say that you were sleeping on the floor? Was that so they would not be used to you sleeping in their bed?


It was more a practical matter. They were both in the same room -- ds in a twin bed and dd in a toddler bed. We obviously were too large for the toddler bed, and all 3 of us wouldn't fit in the twin bed, and so it was more practical to lie on the floor between them. Then, when they moved to separate rooms, ds got a loft bed, and dd got a low loft bed. Again, not very conducive to sleeping together.

I will say that having the separation physically also helped. I was the one with the laptop/book and it was clear that my being 'occupied' helped my kids fall asleep eventually. We actually had some really nice chats sometimes, and I didn't mind. But since I wasn't in bed with them, they didn't get freaked out when I left after they fell asleep.

FWIW, any time dh is out of town, the kids want to share our queen-sized bed with me, and I usually let them. It may be coming to an end though, as ds is closing in on 5' and dd is still kicking the covers off everyone when she's hot. So, I'm not opposed to co-sleeping, but I do know that I, as a parent, need a full night's sleep to function. When my kids' sleeping is interfering with mine, something's got to change for the health of the family.

Quote:


> A previous poster said they read or were on the laptop in their child's room while they fell asleep. When i tried that she practically attacked me, climbed all over me, choking me, trying to get me to hold her/rock her. Yeah i can be totally quiet, but she will accost me until i respond. I can't let her beat me up. lol ...can't believe i am typing this.


This is where I used Anthony Wolf's 'waiting for the bus' technique. When they got out of bed (and yes, it did also help that I was not in bed with them), I'd silently walk them back. Pretend you're waiting for the bus and really don't have anything invested in how long it takes for her to get to sleep. If it doesn't get them anywhere, the behavior will eventually disappear. Unfortunately, there's usually an increase in the behavior before it disappears as she goes through the stages of "wait, this worked before! I've got to try harder to make it work". Once she realizes it really won't work, it will disappear.

Since your dd is used to you rocking her and being right next to her, it's quite a change for her to have you not in bed with her. I'd be tempted to spend 3-4 weeks weaning yourself off the bed. So, the first few nights, rub her back while she falls asleep. The next few, lie quietly with her. The next few, sit in a chair next to the bed and hold her hand, the next few touch her occasionally. She may need a hand hold or a shirt of yours to sleep with or something for quite some time. You might think about some soft music or white noise too. If she's sensory seeking, that might help her.

I also think she's old enough that you need to tell her the plan. I would figure out your plan and present it as how it's going to be and why. "Mommy's arms hurt too much to rock you, but I'll be happy to sit next to you while you fall asleep. I can't be in bed with you because you flop too much and that hurts me, and I think it keeps you from getting to sleep."

And I'll confess there are days when then "waiting for the bus" did not work and I lost it. (Bedtime parenting is really hard because everyone is tired!). Usually then I'd leave the room until they were back in bed, or at least until I was calm enough to handle it again. The 'rule' was that I'd stay if you stayed in bed.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Mtnlisa, thank you for the tips. I never realized that me rocking her was meeting a need related to the sensory issues. Even though i was a teacher for a while, i don't remember studying this at all. Maybe my education was before sensory issues actually had a name. Anyway this is so interesting and thanks again. I talked to the my OT friend on Sunday and she is going to give me a book which has a form with questions that will help me pin point. She said my dd def. has tactile needs and something else...i've already forgotten the term! I had no idea that this could have anything to do with sleep.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Lynn, i really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. I feel like i am ready now to start afresh with a gentle way to help her sleep in her bed. I think i can implement all the tips you gave. I know my hubby will be happy if we have another attempt. He is really supportive and he knows that it will be me doing it, so he doesn't pressure me at all. I think this will help my dd to grow emotionally. I think i may add one step in beginning. It might help to first let her stay in our bed while i get her over the rocking. Once she is able to fall asleep in a decent amount of time by just laying with me, then I will move us to her bed and lay with her there for a few nights. Then proceed with the slow progression you laid out for me. Thanks again.


----------



## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

this may be a totally naive suggestion, but would your DD be able/willing to rock herSELF in a nice glider? I know my 5 yo DD loves to sit in the one in her little sisters' room while I'm putting them to bed, and rock. if she's small, she may even be able to curl up in a large one and fall asleep--and you could transfer her later in the night?


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

When my DD was 3 she was still co-sleeping and nursing some at night. If we weren't in bed with her she waked every hour or so, but if we were in bed with her she slept. Right before age 4 she weaned herself and then decided she wanted to sleep in her own bed with her nightlights. When she first weaned herself she'd roll around and kinda wiggle herself asleep for a few weeks. After deciding to go to her own room she'd go to sleep with stories and stay asleep 10 hours. I think part of the appeal was the two new night lights that change color and the water bed mattress (the kind with waterfilled coils) my ILs gave her. The point is that having a 3 year old who can't seem to sleep well alone or has to nurse or wiggle to sleep doesn't mean she won't go to sleep on her own and stay asleep when she's a little older. The summer my DD was 3.5, I would have guessed she'd still be co-sleeping and nursing at 5, she was still so needy. So they can surprise you by becoming more independent. It does sound like she needs to co-sleep for now. Have you tried moving a twin bed next to yours? That way it would feel like she's sleeping by mommy, but you'd have all the space of your own bed.

I always found sites like this http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html encouraging when I felt like co-sleeping wasn't working or felt sleep deprived. Hope you find something that works soon.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Chief, sounds like a great idea. I don't have a glider. HAd to get rid of it because it was not comfy and falling apart. I think that part of the rocking that is so appealing to her is that i am holding her "up". She likes to be "up" on the shoulder, the SAME shoulder...no switching shoulders. She doesn't like to be rocked while sitting on my lap. I have tried and tried to get her to be okay with me holding her like a baby on my lap, with pillows, without pillows, but she cries until we hold her up on our shoulder. There was one week that my shoulder was just in so much pain that i told her i could not do it and she cried every night that week. Sometimes she cries until she throws up. After my shoulder healed i started holding her up again. It's the combo of mama/daddy being up on shoulder and rocking. She does this scrunchy thing with her legs and i don't think she can do it without being up. I've been trying to teach her how to rock herself laying down or move her legs and feet to help her sleep. So far, she's not getting it.


----------



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Shh, well that is pretty encouraging. I have tried to convince myself to just hang in there and she'll out grow rocking and/or cosleeping. My problem with waiting isn't so much ME. I like cosleeping and i feel safer knowing she is in my room. Actually, I think i sleep better when she is in my room.

MY issue:

What if I keep waiting for her to do it and she doesn't... and she is in the 6th grade and unable to ever stay at grandma's or church camp or sleep overs due to INSECURITY. I know children like this and they are not happy that they cannot do a sleepover. They feel very sad and one girl cried for hours because she couldn't stay at church camp. Even when one of the mothers offered to stay with her until she fell asleep, she could not do it.

I don't want dd to feel so insecure when i am not around. And what about emergencies or when she is a little older and mom and dad go on a weekend holiday...i want her to be well adjusted and secure in sleeping any where without me.

Right now we have a double and a twin pushed up next to each other. It's just like having a king, so space isn't the issue. Hubby sleeps on the twin and dd is in the middle. When baby #2 comes i will cosleep again because i believe in the biological/emotional benefits of cosleeping. But, i also believe that part of my job as a parent is to help her become more and more independent in every aspect of life.

Deciding when she is 'ready' for this kind of independence has been hard and figuring out the most gentle ways to facilitate this independence has been trial and error. I have backed off of attempts many times feeling that she wasn't ready. I don't feel 'waiting' for her to do it herself is the best option. What if she never does it? It's encouraging to hear that your daughter did it, but what if mine doesn't? That is a possibility.


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Did you look at the link, http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html ? Research has shown that people who co-slept are more secure and less anxious. My DD has a normal amount of anxiety and fears for her age, but none about sleeping, being in the dark or being alone in her room. The problem with you trying to decide when your DDs ready is that there's no way for you to really know. Your DD on the other hand can tell when she's ready to try things. There aren't any kids who started out co-sleeping and keep doing it forever. Just like the fear that a child will nurse forever if you let them decide when to wean, it just doesn't happen. If a child feels secure, which co-sleeping helps happen, they develop a desire for privacy and independence as a part of natural development. It happens a different ages and can happen suddenly, like with my DD, but it does happen. That's kinda the whole idea behind AP parenting. All the closeness and physical contact help the child feel secure so they can become independent when they are ready. In cultures where co-sleeping is the norm it's common to be still co-sleeping at age 5. The children who have anxiety about sleep or sleeping at grandmas probably didn't co-sleep or may have stopped too young. I have always had issues with insomnia so I didn't want my DD to have any anxiety associated with sleep. We were prepared for her to co-sleep until she was 6 or so. She had a surge of independence right around turning 4. It could have happened at 6 instead.


----------



## 1blueheron (Aug 22, 2009)

just a quick thought - possibly restless leg issues?? http://www.denibell.com/2010/09/06/restless-leg-a-very-real-syndrome/


----------

