# Thoughts on SIDS and safety...



## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

I know carseats are the #1 issue described in this forum, and obviously they are very important for the safety of all young children. But SIDS is the #1 cause of death for babies between 1 month and 1 year old, and it occurs to me that I rarely see SIDS-related safety discussed here. So, I was curious to find out what perspectives are most common among safety-focused AP families.

What do you do about safe sleep practices? Where do you find the information you rely on in making sleep decisions for your baby?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Ah, this is a good topic of conversation!

With my first, I bought the "babies are safer in cribs" line of crud hook, line, and sinker. I thought co-sleeping was awful, unsafe, and something only very stupid, selfish people did







:

When I looked into it, I realized that governmental statistics compiled safe deliberate co-sleepers with accidental co-sleepers, or people who were drinking, doing drugs etc.

When it comes down to it, a baby is MORE likely to die of SIDS sleeping alone in a crib then die of a suffocation accident sleeping with his mother or parents in an adult bed. I truly believe that babies were NEVER meant to sleep in cribs and that they are deadly, especially when stuck in a room alone.

You follow safe co-sleeping techniques....don't cover the baby up with pillows or heavy comforters. Don't get drunk or take sleep inducing medications or use illegal drugs before getting in bed. Don't leave the baby unattended on the adult bed when the baby is mobile. (when my babies get mobile, if I'm not in the room, I lay them in the cosleeper, then pull them in with me when I get to bed).


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

For SIDS I think the *single* most important thing is for young infants to NEVER sleep alone. Not alone in a crib in a room. Not alone for a nap without someone in the room. I've read too many stories where mom was there and saved a baby that could have become a stat.

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm not doubting it's the #1 killer, but I also know in many states (mine included) they do not differentiate between suffocation and true SIDS (death of unknown origin basically). I think that does a disservice to the cause and helping people learn to be safe. We co-sleep which is known to reduce true SIDS, if they're not sleeping on me they sleep on their backs as babies, that's really about as far as we've done anything to help. They're not vaxed which seems to point to helping as well.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

It's hard to get good information, because most studies can't/don't differentiate between intentional cosleeping and non-intentional, and may not separate out other risk factors such as parental drug use/drinking/smoking.

But, I've heard fairly convincing arguments that western adult bedding is just not friendly to infant safety. That pillows, soft mattresses, comforters, high beds near walls or with headboards and footboards, were not part of our "environment of evolutionary adaptation," and that sleep surfaces specifically designed for baby safety actually more closely approximate a "normal" sleep environment - a very firm, flat surface (firmer and flatter than any adult mattress), with no blankets, pillows, cushions, or gaps. So it seems to me that it may be true that a baby on her back on a separate safe sleep surface in close proximity to parents may be safer than either bedsharing or a crib down the hall.

On the other hand, cosleeping is very important to our family and has saved our sleep and sanity and happiness, so maybe some middle ground on the continuum from "drunk cosleeping on a waterbed" to "crib/cosleeper only" is reasonable, and that's what we've tried to do - bedsharing, but with sober parents and conscious of issues with bedding to the extent that it's practical.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

We are very aware of safe co-sleeping, no pillows, blankets and bedding near baby, no cracks or gaps for baby to fall into, no one other momma sleeping near baby. No cosleeping on the couch. It bothers me that we just blanketly tell parents that co-sleeping is dangerous but don't tell them HOW to co-sleep safely. I have a friend who had a friend overlie on their baby and the baby suffocated, tragic, awful death. It scared her terribly and she would not co-sleep with her babies SO she co-slept with them ON THE COUCH until they were about 3 months and she transitioned them to a bassinett, then to a crib at 6 months when she sleep trained them. The mom that rolled on her baby was very obese, was prone to extremely heavy sleep (ie not waking when baby cried) and was taking prescription medications at the time of the incident (I am not remembering what, possibily anti-anxiety meds). This is my forever example of how parents WILL co-sleep and need to be educated HOW to do so safely rather than just be told not to.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
We are very aware of safe co-sleeping, no pillows, blankets and bedding near baby, no cracks or gaps for baby to fall into, no one other momma sleeping near baby. No cosleeping on the couch. It bothers me that we just blanketly tell parents that co-sleeping is dangerous but don't tell them HOW to co-sleep safely. I have a friend who had a friend overlie on their baby and the baby suffocated, tragic, awful death. It scared her terribly and she would not co-sleep with her babies SO she co-slept with them ON THE COUCH until they were about 3 months and she transitioned them to a bassinett, then to a crib at 6 months when she sleep trained them. The mom that rolled on her baby was very obese, was prone to extremely heavy sleep (ie not waking when baby cried) and was taking prescription medications at the time of the incident (I am not remembering what, possibily anti-anxiety meds). This is my forever example of how parents WILL co-sleep and need to be educated HOW to do so safely rather than just be told not to.

That is terriblly sad for the mama and baby







:

What's worse is that co-sleeping on a couch is pretty much a recipe for disaster.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

We co-sleep (with reasonable percautions), don't vax, and breastfeed. Those seem to be the biggies for me that make me feel better about SIDS. As for sleep decisions, when baby can roll themselves on their stomach, then baby can sleep that way. We transitioned my oldest out of our bed around 15 months (when SIDS was no longer and issue and his sleep movements were costing us all sleep).


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
We are very aware of safe co-sleeping, no pillows, blankets and bedding near baby, no cracks or gaps for baby to fall into, no one other momma sleeping near baby. No cosleeping on the couch. It bothers me that we just blanketly tell parents that co-sleeping is dangerous but don't tell them HOW to co-sleep safely. I have a friend who had a friend overlie on their baby and the baby suffocated, tragic, awful death. It scared her terribly and she would not co-sleep with her babies SO she co-slept with them ON THE COUCH until they were about 3 months and she transitioned them to a bassinett, then to a crib at 6 months when she sleep trained them. The mom that rolled on her baby was very obese, was prone to extremely heavy sleep (ie not waking when baby cried) and was taking prescription medications at the time of the incident (I am not remembering what, possibily anti-anxiety meds). This is my forever example of how parents WILL co-sleep and need to be educated HOW to do so safely rather than just be told not to.


Oh yeah, like sleeping on a couch is safe. I try to educate cosleeping parents on safe sleeping practices, but it gets difficult. Many simply aren't aware that there are serious recommendations on how to cosleep safely.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

I think the biggest risk factors for SIDS are letting a baby sleep alone in a crib; formula feeding them; and vaccinations. I think tummy sleeping is a big factor for babies who do not co-sleep. I think if you co-sleep tummy sleeping is fine though.


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

So far I have found nothing but good research that supports safe co-sleeping practices. Much of the anti co-sleeping info I found was or is produced by entities that are payed for or indirectly supporting the crib manufacturing industry.
When I co-slept with my DS it was on a low futon with an extemely firm mattress. I had a single pillow, and a thin sheet for myself.
While I think co-sleeping is the most ideal sleep situation for a mother and child it may not be the safest option.
For example my SIL who is very obese (300+lbs) was worried about co-sleeping. She seen how it worked for our fmaily and didn't think it would work for her because she was over weight. I told her not to co-sleep, she should at least share the room with her DC, but not to actually sleep in the same bed.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I think the biggest risk factors for SIDS are letting a baby sleep alone in a crib; formula feeding them; and vaccinations. I think tummy sleeping is a big factor for babies who do not co-sleep. I think if you co-sleep tummy sleeping is fine though.

So these are some ideas that I am curious about. I've read credible sources that showed some SIDS-avoidance benefit with breastfeeding, but why do you feel that tummy sleeping in an adult bed is safe?


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
So these are some ideas that I am curious about. I've read credible sources that showed some SIDS-avoidance benefit with breastfeeding, but why do you feel that tummy sleeping in an adult bed is safe?

Because by co-sleeping, you help regulate your babies' heartrate, temparature and breathing. Tummy sleeping causes infants to go into a "deeper" sleep, which, if they are not next to you, they may not wake from in SIDS cases. I really think young babies *need* to sleep with their mother next to them.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Because by co-sleeping, you help regulate your babies' heartrate, temparature and breathing. Tummy sleeping causes infants to go into a "deeper" sleep, which, if they are not next to you, they may not wake from in SIDS cases. I really think young babies *need* to sleep with their mother next to them.









:

I think that if SIDS safety tests were done next to mom the results would be markedly different from what is being promoted now.

I also think that the same time they started pushing some of these things (back to sleep etc) they got more particular about diagnosing a cause of death other than "we don't know"= SIDS.

-Angela


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't know...James McKenna (who did mother-baby sleep research and is generally supportive of safe cosleeping) says his research doesn't indicate that bedsharing is protective against SIDS. Are there other researchers working on this?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
I don't know...James McKenna (who did mother-baby sleep research and is generally supportive of safe cosleeping) says his research doesn't indicate that bedsharing is protective against SIDS. Are there other researchers working on this?

I have read writings of his that says that it IS.

-Angela


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## saimeiyu (Aug 13, 2007)

To be honest, I'm not at all worried about SIDS.
We co-sleep, BF, and we don't vax. We don't particularly follow all the safe co-sleeping rules, because I don't believe all of them are necessary.

For example, I *highly* doubt that throughout human evolution, mothers slept with their babies on hard surfaces without pillows or blankets. Are you SERIOUS?? Babies slept with their mothers, who slept with their fathers, brothers, and sisters. All in the same bed, and I'm SURE they had blankets, because what else are they going to do in the freezing winter? Get up all night long to stoke the fire to roaring? They bundled up with each other, and had blankets/furs to keep warm.

I also don't think tummy-sleeping is that big of a deal when you're with your baby.

I personally think SIDS is a phenomenon known only to the modern, mostly western world, because we are the only ones who need to be told by "experts" who don't have kids, or who only had one or two (obviously I"m not exactly including Dr. Sears in this) how to raise our kids, because we're so far removed from the ability to listen to our instincts as a society.

Also, I've read an awful lot about how closely SIDS is related to vaccines like DPT and DTaP. I think it's telling that over half of them occur w/in 48 hours of administration of one of those vaccines. So I guess I'd be worried about SIDS if I was vaxing. But we're not.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

The biggest risk factor for SIDS is smoking and not breastfeeding, in that order. In fact the research I have seen states that if you smoke you should not bed share. As for tummy sleeping and blankets, a room with some air movement is more helpful for babies, as it gets the rebreathed air away from the babies face.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

I told her not to co-sleep, she should at least share the room with her DC, but not to actually sleep in the same bed.
Wow. Hmmm. Why?

Do you think fat moms are more likely to roll onto their babies than thin ones? Or just that the thin moms' babies will survive??







:

Really. Dude. Fat moms can cosleep. I know. I do it. Never in a million years did i think that cosleeping didnt apply to me because i was overweight. I took all the same precautions as everyone else (not alot of bedding, no pillows around the baby)...but honestly, past those first weeks when the baby is really small and fragile and can barely move....those precautions (IMO) arent that important. I think i'd have to be REALLY out of it (completely passed out from a sleeping pill or something?? which has never happened!) to not notice that i had rolled over or near my baby. My older son spent the better part of his young life with my huge boob pressed up against his face while we slept.

I guess i just find it sad that you'd encourage that mother NOT to cosleep, with all its benefits, simply because she is overweight. I guess i could possibly see it if she was like 1200 pounds and had a hard time moving around. 300 pounds, not so much.

Katherine


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I think the key with the story of the obese SIL is that *she* was not comfortable cosleeping. I trust moms instincts on what's going to be safe for them.


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

I worried about SIDS for the first couple weeks with my twins (I mean, it was just so shocking to me that they were here and alive, and for some reason it seemed entirely possible that they could stop breathing at any moment), and then I got over it. I saw how they instinctively gravitated toward me in the bed, so that they were each sleeping right alongside me. I saw how they squirmed and kicked to get blankets off of their faces, and I realized how quickly I woke up to any signal they gave. Letting them sleep OFF of my body was harder for me, but after realizing that we really didn't have any risk factors in our family for SIDS (no vax, no smoke, no formula), I stopped worrying. I even had them nap on their tummies without me during the day (they wouldn't sleep on their backs at all).

With my third baby, I didn't worry about SIDS for a minute.

A friend of dw's lost her baby to a bad co-sleeping situation at 6 weeks. The mama's boyfriend was stoned and rolled over on the baby.







I think it makes sense for babies to sleep with the breastfeeding mom (if possible), for everyone in the family bed to be sober, and for the bedding to be safe (no water beds, no pillow top fluffy mattresses).

Crib sleeping at night makes no sense to me at all. I would never feel safe with my baby out of my reach while I was sleeping. But I am a particularly paranoid person, lol.

Lex


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## violet_ (Nov 16, 2007)

I think I'd be really uncomfortable to sleep with an infant, since I'm such a heavy sleeper. DH and I both are really heavy sleepers, actually. One night DSD was cold in her room and needed another blanket and knocked on our door and asked for us, and neither of us woke up! We were at my parents' house at the time, and my mother (thankfully) woke up and helped her, and we felt awful when she told us about it! One time when I was younger the house across the street burned to the ground, and I slept through the whole thing, firetrucks and all. And my window was to the street! I would hope to be more aware of my own infant, I think, but part of me would worry I'd sleep through anything.


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet_* 
I think I'd be really uncomfortable to sleep with an infant, since I'm such a heavy sleeper. DH and I both are really heavy sleepers, actually. One night DSD was cold in her room and needed another blanket and knocked on our door and asked for us, and neither of us woke up! We were at my parent's house at the time, and my mother (thankfully) woke up and helped her, and we felt awful when she told us about it! One time when I was younger the house across the street burned to the ground, and I slept through the whole thing, firetrucks and all. And my window was to the street! I would hope to be more aware of my own infant, I think, but part of me would worry I'd sleep through anything.

I'm a very deep sleeper too, actually. But I've never had trouble waking up for my babies. I sleep through my five-year-olds coming into my bed or asking me questions (I wake up if they're crying), but I always woke up as soon as my babies did, before they had to cry. At a certain point, babies are able to latch themselves on in the night, and then they don't even need to wake you. I think that's about when I become less sensitive to their wakings and go back to my deep sleeper status.

I think being a deep sleeper is actually to my benefit in cosleeping because I am able to sleep through the night nursing so well. I never really know how much my LO has nursed in the night, and I always feel well rested in the morning. Lighter sleepers are more likely to get sleep deprived while cosleeping and to feel a need to nightwean or move their kids out of their bed in order to get better sleep.

Lex


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## violet_ (Nov 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lexbeach* 
I'm a very deep sleeper too, actually. But I've never had trouble waking up for my babies. I sleep through my five-year-olds coming into my bed or asking me questions (I wake up if they're crying), but I always woke up as soon as my babies did, before they had to cry. At a certain point, babies are able to latch themselves on in the night, and then they don't even need to wake you. I think that's about when I become less sensitive to their wakings and go back to my deep sleeper status.

I think being a deep sleeper is actually to my benefit in cosleeping because I am able to sleep through the night nursing so well. I never really know how much my LO has nursed in the night, and I always feel well rested in the morning. Lighter sleepers are more likely to get sleep deprived while cosleeping and to feel a need to nightwean or move their kids out of their bed in order to get better sleep.

Lex

Thanks! I would hope I respond that way too. Will wait and see.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I think the key with the story of the obese SIL is that *she* was not comfortable cosleeping. I trust moms instincts on what's going to be safe for them.

Thats not how i read her post at all...she said her SIL was worried since she is heavy, but saw that it worked for the poster's family. The poster said that *she* (the poster) told her to NOT cosleep with her baby. If it had been ME, i would have found out exactly what her fear was (was it rolling over on the baby?), and helped her to overcome that fear (if she was truly worried, maybe a bigger bed? maybe one of those cosleeping "boxes"/beds that you place in the bed with you....lots of options other than "you're too fat to cosleep" i realize she didnt say exactly but thats how i took it)

But whatever...there's lots of misinformation about overweight people. I had this exact conversation on an email list once. I dont get it.









Katherine


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have read writings of his that says that it IS.

The PP specifically said "bedsharing" and I think Dr. McKenna's research has shown that, while proximity is helpful in regulating an infant's breathing, it's not significant whether the baby is in the same bed or in a separate bed or crib adjacent to the mother. His research doesn't indicate that bedsharing is harmful, and does indicate that proximity is protective, though... so it is generally supportive of bedsharing.


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## la.arbonne.08 (May 23, 2008)

I just joined this forum to see if anyone new anything about the military and vaccine exemptions. It would be very helpful.

Also, I have done a lot of reading on the subject of vaccines, and it seems that when infants die from vaccine related causes and when they die from SIDS the doctors/coroners cannot tell the difference between the two. This really concerns me b/c how then can they tell if they are not all vaccine related?
Has anyone else read anything on this?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

You should go check out the vaccine forum: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=47


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cutekid* 
For example my SIL who is very obese (300+lbs) was worried about co-sleeping. She seen how it worked for our fmaily and didn't think it would work for her because she was over weight. I told her not to co-sleep, she should at least share the room with her DC, but not to actually sleep in the same bed.

wtf?? My highest weight was 304 and I've always coslept. I also FF (and BF) because I have IGT. I don't vax though. But I can guarantee you that despite my layers of fat, I can still feel things. I'd know if I'd rolled over on my baby. Even though I have to FF and I'm fat, I still don't think my baby should have to sleep all alone somewhere.


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