# Important Safety info for flying with babies



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Cross posted from dying thread

Lap babies (under 2) do fly for free on domestic flights, but for me the price isn't worth the risk of my baby's life. Babies flying without a car seat are at risk of serious injury during turbulence or emergency landings. Did you know that in the instance of an emergency landing that a flight attendant will instruct you to put your baby on the floor at your feet? Yes, that is what you are required to do, as there is no possible way you can hold onto your child and he could become airborne and hurt someone else. Not to mention what would happen to him, of course. You could also crush him between you and the seat back in front of you.

Most airlines will sell you a half price seat for an infant under two, and you can bring your car seat because more than likely you will need it where you are going. A car seat can be put on a stroller, and the stroller checked at the gate. Babies are usually happier in a car seat anyway, mine was, he didn't beg to explore really, because he knows when he is in his car seat he doesn't get out until the ride is over. Besides, if you baby falls asleep on your lap and you need to use the bathroom, what then?

Think about it, you have to put your carry on under the seat or up in the storage above you, because why? Because in an emergency it will go flying, I wouldn't want to even think of that happening to a child. Turbulence can occur without warning.

With all the women on this board talking about car seats all the time and offering great help there, why would so many not use one when on an airplane? Do we use car seats because its the law? Or becaues its better for our children? Both the FAA, the NTSB, the AAP and National Association of Flight attendants all say say children under 2 should be put in child restraint seats during flights agreeing its MUCH safer for them, but just because the FAA doesn't require us to, we put them at risk? Babies have died as a direct result of not having their own seat. The FAA isn't even following its own policy recommendations, and our children suffer because of it.
'
CBS video and article on airplane Child restraints

The flight attendant in the CBS video (its a good video) is a suriviving flight attendant from the Sioux city crash, where an infant died after being wrenched from his mother's arms.

Article written by mom who has been there, on child safety restraints on airplanes

The information is out there, lets start following their advice and keep our babies safe. Will it cost extra money? Sure, but our children are priceless right?


----------



## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

your second link goes to microsoft.com.


----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

We flew last summer, an 11-hour flight, and had to buy a ticket for our 1yo DD#2 ... and then she had to sit on my lap. I was quite p-o'd, we'd thought she was getting a seat. Admittedly her ticket was a quarter the price, but we figured that was a size thing. But no, the ticket was to get her on the plane, and she was officially in my lap.

FWIW, I kept her in the sling and nursed for take-off and landing.

Aren't there lap-restraints for planes they sell now? (No, we didn't get one because we thought she had a seat.)

If I may just point one thing out, the "I am pretty sure this advice will go unheeded" comment at the start of the OP was pretty off-putting. And watch out for the generalizations. Am remembering a thread years back when someone called me neglectful and I got a PM threatening to tell the authorities about my neglect all because I don't use a car seat with my children in NYC public buses.









Am doing the







thing because anyone who is from NYC or has ever been on NYC public buses knows how funny that is.

So remember, we're on your side, we want safe & healthy kids ... and remember the rule ... you'll catch more flies with honey.


----------



## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

merpk, I took that starter piece out, it was in there from the other thread where more than ten people said that they took their infant on their lap in an airplane and had no problems. I sure hope people read this stuff and think carefully before ever considering NOT buying their infant a ticket on an airplane.

And yes, one does need to be careful for international flights, they do charge a reduce fare usually for lap babies, so if you want a seat, you need to specifically say that. I found the same to be true when buying seats for my own baby, they assume you are going to put the baby on your lap, and I had to state over and over again, NO, I need a seat for him. To get a reduced fare domestically you need to call, online reservations rarely give you the option of buying a seat for a child under 2. A lap restraint in an emergency or even turbulence can make your baby into a human air bag. It might keep your baby from getting tossed four seats ahead of you, but I don't think it would help otherwise. The force of your weight in an emergency landing could likely kill your baby.

And where did I make any generalizations? It is obvious from the other thread and my own witnessing at airports that most people do not put their under 2 yo's in car seats, though thankfully its getting to be more common. Even the FAA wants you to, but they don't change the rule, which bugs me. Take a look at their own stuff on this,

FAA-- Turbulence happens

So yes, I want to see babies be safe on planes, if my passion offends you, please just read the links and think about it.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

OP, your advice is well intended and correct. One thing I wanted to throw in is that ALL airlines and their employeess need to be correctly and uniformaly trained as to the ins and outs of safe airline travel with respect to car seat usage. I can't tell you how many times a flight attendant mistakenly forced a parent to check their car seat instead of allowing them to use it even WHILE the parent had purchased a ticket for their child. That is the battle most conscientious parents face and one which needs to be corrected immediately at the airline level.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
OP, your advice is well intended and correct. One thing I wanted to throw in is that ALL airlines and their employeess need to be correctly and uniformaly trained as to the ins and outs of safe airline travel with respect to car seat usage. I can't tell you how many times a flight attendant mistakenly forced a parent to check their car seat instead of allowing them to use it even WHILE the parent had purchased a ticket for their child. That is the battle most conscientious parents face and one which needs to be corrected immediately at the airline level.

thank you Dallaschildren, I take that as a compliment from you. I have had similiar experiences myself. Checked in on one flight with my car seat and baby, and the flight attendant tried telling me I couldn't put it rear facing, I told her check again, as her own airline people had told me it was okay. I had called ahead and made sure knowing that many times the people on the flights don't know their own airline regulations. She went and checked, and said yes I was right









the woman sitting in the seat in front of my baby was not pleased, she couldn't put her seat back with the car seat rear facing, but honestly my babys safety was more important than her two inches of putting that seat back.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh, and I forgot to add, we did have the FA bug us to check the seat, until I showed her the ticket for our baby. I wish it was the other way round really, that FA's assumed people HAD bought tickets for their babies, because their assumption shows me that most people don't put their babies in safety seats when they are under 2.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I'm not disagreeing with you, OP, but you have to realize that the FAA does not control the entire world's airlines. Some international airlines will not ALLOW you to purchase a seat for kids under 2.

And what about belt extensions? In the case of the seatbelt sign being on, lap children have to be in their belt extenstions too. This is the best option, I'd think for nursing babies. They get to nurse and they're safe.

ETA: BTW, where we travel, a carseat is not only not necessary, but next to impossible to deal with. Your generalization about carseats being necessary is not accurate.


----------



## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

ok, this is going to get me in lots of trouble I am sure....but...

How many kids die per year in plane accidents? How many children die specifically because of lack of restraints/carseats?

I am curious. We fly often, internationally, domestically and domestically in other countries. We very often do not have a carseat with us on the plane, we did not always bring a carseat when my child was a baby. To me it is risk assesment I just don't think the risk is that high, it could happen obviously, it has happened etc etc. It isn't one of those well it won't happen to me type things, I do know there is risk but frankly there is WAY more risk to my daughter in some of the countries we are flying to and we still choose to go.

I do use carseats with a mad passion in cars etc. I do believe in them. I even bring them with when I have to pay huge fees for them and we are using them in the car.

Personally I would like to see built-in child seats on planes but that is a long shot. I make a bigger deal out of not drinking plane water but that is just me.


----------



## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

If it practical, then yes a carseat should be used, but that is not always the case. We live in a very rural area and have to take 1h20m flight to get to a large airport where we can take a jet. These planes have roughly 16 seats, all the seats are single and seperated by the aisle, except for the last seat, but that is impossible to get. I should know, in the dozen times we have flown in the last 3 years, every time I have requested that seat and have never gotten it. There is absolutely no way my scared toddler is going to sit in a carseat all by herself, therefore she sits on my lap.


----------



## cedoreilly (May 21, 2005)

Just a word about reduced seats for those under 2 years. SOmetimes it is better to buy a seat at a promational fare. The half price is from the full price fare. We flew with a one year old in December and the reduced infant fare was twice the promational fare which was in effect at the time!!! When I called to ask about the infant fare I was told about 3 times he could ride on my lap for free. No way!!! I want him in a car seat. If I had it my way my two 2.5 year old would of been in car seats also (my DH won that agreement (he did not want to drag three car seats through the airport) and we rented car seats for them from Avis when we got there.).


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

Did you know that in the instance of an emergency landing that a flight attendant will instruct you to put your baby on the floor at your feet?
That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Why would that be a rule?


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AMB8301*
If it practical, then yes a carseat should be used, but that is not always the case. We live in a very rural area and have to take 1h20m flight to get to a large airport where we can take a jet. These planes have roughly 16 seats, all the seats are single and seperated by the aisle, except for the last seat, but that is impossible to get. I should know, in the dozen times we have flown in the last 3 years, every time I have requested that seat and have never gotten it. There is absolutely no way my scared toddler is going to sit in a carseat all by herself, therefore she sits on my lap.

Yep, same here. We felt we needed to have her in lap for this reason.


----------



## ferretfan (Nov 13, 2005)

in the event of an accident/emergency landing, i'd like to see someone try and make me put my baby on the floor


----------



## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ferretfan*
in the event of an accident/emergency landing, i'd like to see someone try and make me put my baby on the floor









: They could tell me they were gonna chop off my head if I didn't put my baby on the floor and my baby wouldn't leave my arms. I don't think that ANY parent would put their child on the floor because someone told them to.


----------



## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

I admire any attempt to make babies safer! With that said, no child of mine would ever consent to be strapped into a carseat for 4.5 hours (the length of the flight to both sets of grandparents). Do people drug their babies? We make at least three round trips a year and I do half of the flights without dh because he can't take the whole time off work.

It's pretty hard to handle three kids under five on these endless trips (2 hour car ride on both ends). I would have to buy a special carseat/stroller contraption because our baby is seven months and his carseat doesn't go in a stroller. Plus, if he's in the Baby Bjorn, I have two hands free to hold onto the other children in the airport.

We've experienced a lot of turbulence, but nothing to make you let go of a baby--how rare is that? I don't care about the money--we get ds a seat just so we have extra room to nurse etc.

I guess I'll stick to being super fanatical about car seats in cars.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lula*
ok, this is going to get me in lots of trouble I am sure....but...

How many kids die per year in plane accidents? How many children die specifically because of lack of restraints/carseats?

I'm with you. This link http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-011.html suggests that no more than 0.6 lives per year would be saved if ticket purchases were required of all kids under 2.


----------



## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

I decided to go see how many babies exactly are killed each year because they wern't restrained. Less than 1 child per year is killed. It is actually 3 children for every 5 years. While the loss of 3 children in 5 years is very sad for those 3 children, I don't feel that is any number to be concerned about. You can't put your child in a bubble. You all choose to drive with your children and that is actually a very high risk even though they are in a car seat. I'm more concerned about driving to the grocery store with my daughter than I am to fly with her on my lap.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Wow, how do I even begin to respond? Well, lets start with this, so only a small number of babies are killed because they are not restrained on airplanes? And how many are injured every year? Even if its a small number, and your chances are low, what IF it is YOUR baby? It's someone's baby right?

You wear your seatbelt while on a plane right? But no seatbelt for your kid? I just don't get it. Look at the baby injured on the plane crash in Montreal just recently. Emergency landings happen all the time. Plane crashes might not be all that common, and survivability might not be all that high, but hard landings and turbulence happen all the time. As for how often does severe turbulence happen, and how bad is it? It's quite common, and I have been on some flights with very hard turbulence, I could not imagine having to deal with that and worry about the safety of my child and not be able to do anything.

And frankly in an emergency landing, your baby is probably safer on the floor at your feet, than in your arms. It is the rule because a baby in arms could be wrenched out of your arms and hit another passenger and seriously injuring BOTH.

As for restraints, I said it once, I will say it again, your child can be made a human airbag by those things.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Jwebbel - more kids are killed and injured each year from playing in their yards, taking baths, or eating than they are on airplanes. Are we to stop doing anything with kids, including eating because of the statistics.

What about the comment I made above... some airlines don't ALLOW you to buy a seat for kids under the age of 2. BTDT. You're thinking inside the box - a lot of us here are not American and/or don't fly within the U.S. I see that you are trying to raise a safety awareness, and I respect that. But it doesn't apply across the board.

How about this situation: We are living in Germany. We don't even OWN a carseat because we use public transportation. We are going to Turkey to see family. DD is about 2 years old. I can get a belt extender for her instead of paying 600 euros for a seat specifically for her. Do I buy a 300 euro car seat for her to be in during take off and landing whilst she pleads to nurse to relieve the pressure in her ears? Or do I just get the belt extender (not a seat for her) and keep her safe and happy on my lap? And the car seat is useless in Turkey because they usually don't have seat belts in the back seats.

Sorry, I just don't agree that your statements work for everyone.


----------



## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

I would love to know what the actual injury numbers are. We've always bought a seat for DS and injury was what we have been concerned with. I've never really thought he could die from turbulence, but fly out of my arms and be injured...yes. Not that it would change anything. Having his own seat is a lot less stressful for all of us when we fly.


----------



## KateMary (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
Wow, how do I even begin to respond? Well, lets start with this, so only a small number of babies are killed because they are not restrained on airplanes? And how many are injured every year? Even if its a small number, and your chances are low, what IF it is YOUR baby? It's someone's baby right?

You wear your seatbelt while on a plane right? But no seatbelt for your kid? I just don't get it. Look at the baby injured on the plane crash in Montreal just recently. Emergency landings happen all the time. Plane crashes might not be all that common, and survivability might not be all that high, but hard landings and turbulence happen all the time. As for how often does severe turbulence happen, and how bad is it? It's quite common, and I have been on some flights with very hard turbulence, I could not imagine having to deal with that and worry about the safety of my child and not be able to do anything.

And frankly in an emergency landing, your baby is probably safer on the floor at your feet, than in your arms. It is the rule because a baby in arms could be wrenched out of your arms and hit another passenger and seriously injuring BOTH.

As for restraints, I said it once, I will say it again, your child can be made a human airbag by those things.

Do you leave your child in the carseat for the entire flight? What if they need to nurse or get a diaper change? We take our seatbelts off and go to the bathroom and then sit back down. Because the risk of injury or death is very low in that case. But we never ever take our seatbelt off in the car, or take our child out of their seat in a moving vehicle to nurse, because the risk of injury or death is very high. In a plane, we don't have the option to pull over and stop. I am all for carseats in planes for everyone's comfort and added safety while the child is in the seat but to make it sound like parents are irresponsible for having a lap baby on a plane because 3 kids die every 5 years is a little overboard. Many parents are willing to take that very small risk for the comfort and conveinance of their child while flying.


----------



## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

How on earth could I get my baby to sit buckled into a car seat for 4.5 hours? Are drugs suggested?


----------



## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*

And frankly in an emergency landing, your baby is probably safer on the floor at your feet, than in your arms. It is the rule because a baby in arms could be wrenched out of your arms and hit another passenger and seriously injuring BOTH.


I am curious about this. So it is safer to put the baby on the floor so that the adults legs would keep the baby from flying through the air? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. If the jostling is so severe that it could wrench a baby from mama's arms then wouldn't baby also be freed from the floor?


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl3*
How on earth could I get my baby to sit buckled into a car seat for 4.5 hours? Are drugs suggested?

In our case it's often a flight that is around 15 hours, layover, 5 hour flight. Even if I tried to keep my kid buckled in that long, they'd probably throw us off of the plane when the temper tantrum drove them crazy.


----------



## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

As other PP have said, I very much believe in car seats for cars, but it does not seem practical on a plane ride. I also have the question of "what about when baby wants to nurse" - especially during takeoff and landing to help with ear pressure? And for those parents traveling alone with a young child - do you leave them in the car seat while you go to the bathroom? I know you are on a plane and no one can "kidnap" them while you are gone, but call me paranoid. I want my baby with me. And yes, I am quite adept at using the bathroom while holding baby in sling.
As for a FA telling me to put my baby on the floor during an emergency landing - what are they going to do, not land until I do it? Sorry, there is no way. I understand the issue, but I will continue to bring baby on planes and hold him in the sling. If I were to watch out for everything that "could" happen, I would not allow baby to breathe when we were in smog-filled Los Angeles - and that would not work too well


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Some of the PP's inquired as to data on injuries or deaths.
The FAA launched a national campaign "Turbulence happens" in Dec. 1996. During 1981 to Nov 1996, there were 252 reports of turbulence affecting major air carriers and 863 passengers received minor injuries, 63 received serious injuries and 2 passengers died. *Of the 63 passengers who received serious injuries, 61 were not wearing their safety belts.*
That is the latest data released. It does not breakdown those injured into age ranges though (as in infants, children, adults). But it stands to reason that since crash forces experienced by humans in an automobile are the same, so would the forces experienced in an aircraft. Is using a CSS always practical whether in an auto or airplane? No. But I absolutely recommend it, as does the FAA and the AAP. AAP has a policy "Restraint Use on Aircraft" at www.aap.org for your reference. Go to "car safety seats" and then click on "restraint use on aircraft" for the info.

Here is the FAA's latest on CSS:

http://www.faa.gov/apa/pr/pr.cfm?id=1966

and the actual FAA guidelines for airtravel with children who meet the criteria for CSS use.

http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats (in airplanes and automobiles







)


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Some of the PP's inquired as to data on injuries or deaths.
The FAA launched a national campaign "Turbulence happens" in Dec. 1996. During 1981 to Nov 1996, there were 252 reports of turbulence affecting major air carriers and 863 passengers received minor injuries, 63 received serious injuries and 2 passengers died. *Of the 63 passengers who received serious injuries, 61 were not wearing their safety belts.*/

Only 63 turbulence-related serious injuries among ALL passengers in 15 years? I'm even less worried now.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Jwebbal









Velochic- kids are hurt playing in their backyards, the tub, by food , etc. BUT- Don't you clean your fruits and veggies and do everything in your power to make sure your kids are eating properly cooked safe food?? Don't you check your backyard for possible hazards? Don't you stay in the bathroom with your young child while he/she is in the tub? Many accidents are preventable. A carseat in a car or plane is a way to prevent or minimize injury to your child during an emergency.

Of course you can't keep a child buckled in for hours at a time!!! Just like adults you get up, go to the bathroom etc. The seat is so they can be buckled in for take-off, landing , turbulance, or an emergency. JUST LIKE A PERSON OVER TWO.

It should be a law that children no matter what age are required to have a seat o an airplane. Everyone over the age of 2 needs to be in a seat with a seatbelt during take-off, landing and during turbulance. All carry-ons need to be secured. Even the coffee pot has to be secured during take-off and landing. Why are the lives of children under two worth less then a coffee pot or a 5 year old?

People go to great lengths to protect their children. Car seats, seat belts, helmets, knee pads, baby proofing the house, padding under playground equipment, life jackets at the lake. The list goes on and on....
All of that is relatively inexpensive when you consider the cost of an airline seat. I am guessing that is the major reason people don't get seats for their babies. I am not saying their are not other reasons.

A baby's safety is worth the price of an airline ticket!


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
Only 63 turbulence-related serious injuries among ALL passengers in 15 years? I'm even less worried now.









No. There were *863 turbulance related injuries*. Out of those 63 were serious injuries and there were 2 deaths. In comparison to automobile related injuries and deaths, yes, that is a small number if you are comparing those two. But why take the chance? I guess it all boils down to personal comfort level because it isn't "law".

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

When you're spending 15 hours on a plane, there is just simply NO way to keep a kid in a carseat the whole time without drugging them. Period.

I have to say that of the last, say, 100,000 miles I've traveled on an airplane, it hasn't been on a US-based carrier. And I think the foreign carriers have found the solution that US carriers ignore. Extension belts. I've always requested belt extenders and dd has always happily spent these long trans-atlantic hauls on my lap. Since she turned 2, we keep her strapped into her belt when she's seated, but keeping a 2.5 or 3 year old in their seat for a 15 hour flight is impossible. Who's to say the turbulence doesn't hit unexpectedly whilst in the bathroom. Yeah, you do what you can, but you have to weigh the statistics. So, yeah, I guess it's a risk I'm willing to take because we fly SOOOOO long VERY frequently.

Statistically, you're about as likely to get injured on a train. But do you carry a car seat on a train or give up a sleeping couchette for the night for this very small risk? Probably not.

ETA - these are not extenders that heavy people get. It doesn't carry the risk of the child being crushed inside the same belt as you.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
But why take the chance?

Because you are talking $500 extra for a statistically insignificant risk....especially when you factor in that many babies (mine included) need to be nursed during take off and landing (the most dangerous parts of the flight) to prevent ear pain.

You have to weight he risks. With that reasoning, what do we say about car travel? Do we demonize people that have older/less safe cars? What about smaller cars? Don't have the latest model year of the safest rated car? Well then you are taking a risk. A much bigger risk than plane travel without a car seat, I might add. Eating is risky business too. Choking kills lots of people.....more than turbulence.

Where do we draw the line?


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

When spending 15 hours on a plane there is no way to keep ANYONE in a seat the whole time. You have to get up and walk around and use the bathroom, etc. You do the same thing with with under two year old kids that you would do with any other person. When they are sitting in their seat you strap them in. During take-off and landing you strap them in. During turbulance or an emergency you strap them in.

yoopervegan- why draw the line at age two for lap children??? I know lots of older kids that are smaller and could sit in their parents laps. Heck, I am a smaller woman and I could sit on my DH's lap for a flight to save some money.

The safest place for anyone on a plane is strapped into their own seat. This is a fact. Even the FAA states that the safest place for a child is strapped into their own seat.

Velochic, can you please tell us more about the seatbelt extenders? I am in the US and the only ones we have are the ones for larger passengers.
Thanks!


----------



## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:

Velochic, can you please tell us more about the seatbelt extenders? I am in the US and the only ones we have are the ones for larger passengers.
I'm not Velochic but maybe I can help. This summer we flew to Sicily, through Amsterdam and Rome. On each leg of the flight we checked our carseat and let Parker sit on my lap. I was given a seatbelt extender to tether her to me. The belt looked just like the seatbelt they use to demonstrate proper seatbelt safety before takeoff, except that it had a loop which I threaded my seatbelt through before buckling. So it buckled around her waist and connected her to my belt. Was that completely confusing...? I'll try and find a picture.


----------



## MinnieMouse (Nov 19, 2001)

I didn't become a car seat tech until Bethany was 2yo. But I knew from day one that I wouldn't fly w/o her in her own seat and strapped into her car seat.

Here is the reason...

I know that it is statistically unlikely for her to get injured or die. But I did my research and also KNOW that it is safER for her to be buckled in her seat. So if I didn't buy that seat and buckle her in...and something god forbid happened..I wouldn't be able to live w/ myself for not having done EVERYTHING I could to protect her.

Am I crazy?? maybe... but I know myself and I know how I would feel.

For my family...unless we have the $$ for tickets for all of us to get seats, we just don't go. That is a decision that we have made and if our extended family has a problem w/ it...they can come here.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Statistically, I was (dd is 4 now, so a moot point) willing to risk it so that dd got to know dh's family. In our will, she will go to them in Turkey if luck would have it, dh and I both die at the same time. There was just no way to pay the $2000 for her ticket once or twice a year. (BTW- we also own property there, so we have to go for business reasons, too.)

The belt extenders are exactly as described above. The baby is fastened into a belt and able to nurse or play on your lap and the belt attaches to yours. So it's kind of in the shape of the number 8 where each loop is independent, but attached to each other. It prevents your child from being crushed between you and the belt because s/he has her OWN belt, attached to yours. In the case of turbulence, they wouldn't go anywhere, and assuming you have them strapped in properly, wouldn't even hit the seat in front of you.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Minnie Mouse, I am right there with you. As to the person paying $500, most domestic tickets don't cost that much, and remember, you can get a seat half price on domestic airlines. And of course no one expects you to keep your child in their seat the entire flight! An adult doesn't stay in theirs the entire time either. As for seat belt extenders, I am sure its safer than just having them on your lap, but how can you say they wouldn't hit the seat in front of you? You would in an emergency landing of any force.

I agree the rule needs to change, if flight attendants are fighting for the rule to change than I am with them, I am sure they more than anyone sees the negative results of the current rule, having to deal with those injured and so forth.

As for needing to nurse a baby during take off and landing, if a baby is rear facing in a restraint it is possible to nurse them without you unbuckling your belt (not everyone can do it I realize, but I always did). An older baby can do a sippy cup or cup with straw (mine always did), or even a bottle if your baby takes one.


----------



## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

My son doesn't stay in his carseat the whole flight either. We follow the same rules for him as we do for us. When the seat belt light is on, he's in his seat. If it's not, I will get him out if he needs to get out.

Quote:

why draw the line at age two for lap children??? I know lots of older kids that are smaller and could sit in their parents laps.
Legally, at 2, you HAVE to buy them a seat. I have seen them ask for a birth certificate.


----------



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Because you are talking $500 extra for a statistically insignificant risk....especially when you factor in that many babies (mine included) need to be nursed during take off and landing (the most dangerous parts of the flight) to prevent ear pain.

You have to weight he risks. With that reasoning, what do we say about car travel? Do we demonize people that have older/less safe cars? What about smaller cars? Don't have the latest model year of the safest rated car? Well then you are taking a risk. A much bigger risk than plane travel without a car seat, I might add
I'm with yoopervegan here. It's a risk/benefit analysis. I'm comfortable with it. I'm also comfortable with the fact that we own a subcompact car without side impact airbags.

As has been stated before, car travel is orders of magnitude more dangerous than air travel, but I have never in my life seen anyone berating people who take their DCs in the car a lot. And you could, if you wanted to. ("What's more important to you?? That playgroup 20 minutes away, that unnecessary shopping trip, that outing to the park, or your DC's LIFE???")


----------



## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Because you are talking $500 extra for a statistically insignificant risk....

Exactly so. Air travel and bus travel are extremely safe compared to car travel, and that's why car seats are optional on planes and busses. In 10 years about 4 infants died in plane accidents. That means the cost of saving one infant life from a plane crash by requiring a car seat is about $1.3 billion per life saved.

Interestingly, if safety regulations required infants to be in car seats on planes and busses it would predictably result in more infant deaths, not fewer. The reason is economic: the extra expense would cause more people to choose automible travel over airplane travel, and the risk of death and injury is extremely high in a car compared to air travel.

http://pub.ucsf.edu/newsservices/releases/2003101312/

--AmyB


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
You have to weight he risks.

That's exactly what I said. And if you deem the risk as insignificant, then you have "weighed" your risk and will act accordingly. Bringing up other risks and comparing them to car seat use is like comparing apples and oranges. I'm not here to condemn anyone if they choose not to use a CSS during a flight and my posts on this issue, in this thread, reflect that.
But as a CPS tech I am obligated to provide recommendations that fully support correct car seat use and their applicable laws, no matter what the method of travel.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Wow--fascinating article, AmyB!


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

AmyB.

Interesting article...a bit dated but the premise behind their hypothesis is common sense and I tend to agree. However the results were based mostly on likelihoods and probabilities which doesn't appear to be very scientific. In addition, this thread was discussing turbulance and not outright airplane crashes.
"They estimated the number of flights by young children each year -- about 6.5 million -- and the number of young children who might be passengers on *survivable airplane crashes*." Airplane crashes are even more of a rarity than turbulance.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Like Minnie Mouse, the guilt that I would feel if my child happened to be one of the kids injured or killed on an airplane is too much a price to pay for me. I figure it worth the cost to just avoid that guilt if it were to happen, and I also find managing a infant/toddler on a plane MUCH easier if they have their own seat with their very own car seat that they are familiar with. Eating with a baby on my lap during a flight is NOT fun, worrying about the maybes that might happen is also more than I would want to think about when I am dealing with the regular stuff during a flight.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
I also find managing a infant/toddler on a plane MUCH easier if they have their own seat with their very own car seat that they are familiar with. Eating with a baby on my lap during a flight is NOT fun, worrying about the maybes that might happen is also more than I would want to think about when I am dealing with the regular stuff during a flight.

I'm truly not trying to bait you in this thread.







I really do agree that each parent must weigh dozens of decisions EVERY DAY about a child's safety. It's not always an easy decision. But I wanted to address THIS comment. My dd, as an infant, cried from the minute we put her into a car seat until we got her out. She was a constant complainer about the carseat. Then we moved to Germany, it became a moot point and when we came back (she was almost 3) she gladly sat in her carseat. Don't tell me what happened developmentally, but it clicked... if she wanted to go anywhere, she had to be in her car seat. In fact she FREAKS if she's not buckled in immediately now. So, for some kids, the car seat is torture and add 1). Not getting to nurse 2). Not getting ear pressure relief 3). Not getting comfort in unfamiliar surroundings... and you get disaster.

For those of you who do not buy seats for your kids and have a travel partner, the eating issue isn't a problem at all. That's an easy one. One of you order a special meal (they usually taste better, anyway, especially the vegetarian ones). You get it first and by the time the actual food cart comes around, you're finished eating and the other person can eat while you hold baby. Actually, we do this anyway... even when dd has her own seat.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
As has been stated before, car travel is orders of magnitude more dangerous than air travel, but I have never in my life seen anyone berating people who take their DCs in the car a lot. And you could, if you wanted to. ("What's more important to you?? That playgroup 20 minutes away, that unnecessary shopping trip, that outing to the park, or your DC's LIFE???")

ITA! Soooo many people seem to think driving is completely safe, as long as their seven-year-old is harnessed in a Britax.


----------



## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

I totally DISAGREE with the notion of strapping your under-2 year olds into their own carseats on a plane. it strikes me as such a myopic view of parents of singletons.

In the post 9/11 era in the US, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get help to the gate. Non-ticketed passenger, sorry. You can't help your pregnant wife and twin 18 month olds to the gate. Yeah, you moms of one think brining a car seat is no big deal. Try struggling with carseats, twins, backpacks, and strollers through the rediculous "security" measures by yourself. Airlines help? Uh, no they don't. Service people? No way. And, they can't bring you onto the plane. Ever try to corral toddlers and Britax carseats by yourself? With flight attendants who just look at you? The world is not a perfect place. And airline tickets for less than $500? I don't think you've flown in a while. I've never paid LESS than $600 a ticket. I alone am keeping several bankrupt airlines in business.

God forbid we be one of the 868 people injured in a 15 year period (what's that break out to? one a day???) or one of 3 in a 5 year period who are killed. You know what? If my children, god forbid were killed in a plane crash, I'm a believer, and believe that it was their time to go.

In the meantime, keep your obsessions to yourself. Buy a carseat for your own kid, and leave the rest of us alone.

Sorry - this really strikes a nerve with me.


----------



## MinnieMouse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
I totally DISAGREE with the notion of strapping your under-2 year olds into their own carseats on a plane. it strikes me as such a myopic view of parents of singletons.

In the post 9/11 era in the US, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get help to the gate. Non-ticketed passenger, sorry. You can't help your pregnant wife and twin 18 month olds to the gate. Yeah, you moms of one think brining a car seat is no big deal. Try struggling with carseats, twins, backpacks, and strollers through the rediculous "security" measures by yourself. Airlines help? Uh, no they don't. Service people? No way. And, they can't bring you onto the plane. Ever try to corral toddlers and Britax carseats by yourself? With flight attendants who just look at you? The world is not a perfect place. And airline tickets for less than $500? I don't think you've flown in a while. I've never paid LESS than $600 a ticket. I alone am keeping several bankrupt airlines in business.

God forbid we be one of the 868 people injured in a 15 year period (what's that break out to? one a day???) or one of 3 in a 5 year period who are killed. You know what? If my children, god forbid were killed in a plane crash, I'm a believer, and believe that it was their time to go.

In the meantime, keep your obsessions to yourself. Buy a carseat for your own kid, and leave the rest of us alone.

Sorry - this really strikes a nerve with me.

I'm sorry you've had such difficulty flying...fortunately for me, my immediate family, my extended family and my friends...this isn't the case.

I've flown FIVE round trips in the last 4yrs w/ my 4.5yo and have never paid more than $200 per ticket...more likely $150ish..and that is round trip. I did fly coast to coast by myself when 7mo pregnant, but that was paid for by my work AND the ticket was only $300.

All the flight attendants I've come in contact w/ were OVERLY helpful and did everything possible to accomodate me, my dd and my dh.

I've heard a number of people say it was quite easy to have an unticketed passenger come to the gate w/ them to help when traveling alone w/ kids. I'm sorry that weren't able to do this.

When traveling w/ dd I put her in her stroller (she LOVES her stroller) and I have her carseat (all but one trip was in a Britax, the last one was in a Graco) strapped to a collapsible luggage cart that I can fold up and place in my backpack diaper bag once we are on the plane. Dd has a small kids backpack w/ her small toys and I have the diaper bag backpack w/ snacks, diapers (when she was younger) and my personal stuff.

As I stated in a previous post..."I" am not comfortable flying w/o my children in car seats (when applicable...dd is no longer able to fly in a car seat) because I have done my research and KNOW it's safER for them to fly that way. I don't see a problem w/ sharing the research and letting each parent decide the risks for themselves. You are aware of the info and you choose differently...which is fine. There was an interview w/ a mom of one of the infants that died in the Souix City crash years ago and she was distraught because she was told that flying w/ her baby on her lap was perfectly safe. Well it's not in every case.

I make sure my car seats are installed and used correctly, I have cabinet locks in my kitchen, I hold my child's hand crossing the street and in parking lots and we selectively vaccinate.... sure the stats for all of these things are pretty low for my child to be injured or hurt but when it's YOUR child... the statistics don't really make a difference.

Your choice is to forego car seats, mine is to use them...fine. But don't slam people for sharing info about WHY we are choosing to use them. Let everyone make their own decisions.


----------



## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

where are all these helpful airline people? where? cheap tickets? please if you seriously had this happen I want to know! where these all domestic US flights? did everyone speak the same language fluently?

Ok, in fairness I know that very wonderful and helpful airline people do exist but they sure aren't everywhere. Also, I have on every occasion I have flown NOT been able to have anyone accompany me in the security line much less to the gate. I guess it must really depend on where you are flying from or where you are flying to.

I think the problem of flying alone with 2+ children who all need carseats is a valid concern. What do you guys who bring them with do? I am honestly curious. I can't imagine the dilemmas that would ensue but I am a huge freak about "stuff" when I travel so...


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

Think about it, you have to put your carry on under the seat or up in the storage above you, because why? Because in an emergency it will go flying, I wouldn't want to even think of that happening to a child. Turbulence can occur without warning.
Yes, that's why they have seatbelts for the babies, bring them to you, show you how to use them, and ask ALL passengers, including babies, to wear their seat belts at all times even when the light isn't on. It's also why the bassinettes have those straps over the top - to restrain the baby in the event of turbulence.


----------



## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

i've found i get more help from airline employees if i'm flying alone with my kids. if my dp is with us, forget it...

anyways. i flew with mine alone a few times, and i had a rolling suitcase. i hung my bags on the handle and put the carseats on it. pulled that w one hand, held dd's hand with the other and had ds in the sling. when stopping at the ticket counter or in line, i would just lay the whole suitcase down and keep holding dd's hand (i am totally paranoid about someone grabbing her.)

it IS doable. i can understand why some people would choose not to, though. i'm just saying!


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

Yes, that's why they have seatbelts for the babies, bring them to you, show you how to use them, and ask ALL passengers, including babies, to wear their seat belts at all times even when the light isn't on. It's also why the bassinettes have those straps over the top - to restrain the baby in the event of turbulence.
This is true on most international flights but not true on domestic flights in the US. There are no bassinets and no seat belts for lap babies.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

momof4peppers said:


> I totally DISAGREE with the notion of strapping your under-2 year olds into their own carseats on a plane. it strikes me as such a myopic view of parents of singletons.
> 
> And airline tickets for less than $500? I don't think you've flown in a while. I've never paid LESS than $600 a ticket. I alone am keeping several bankrupt airlines in business.
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
I totally DISAGREE with the notion of strapping your under-2 year olds into their own carseats on a plane. it strikes me as such a myopic view of parents of singletons.

In the post 9/11 era in the US, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get help to the gate. Non-ticketed passenger, sorry. You can't help your pregnant wife and twin 18 month olds to the gate. Yeah, you moms of one think brining a car seat is no big deal. Try struggling with carseats, twins, backpacks, and strollers through the rediculous "security" measures by yourself. Airlines help? Uh, no they don't. Service people? No way. And, they can't bring you onto the plane. Ever try to corral toddlers and Britax carseats by yourself? With flight attendants who just look at you? The world is not a perfect place. And airline tickets for less than $500? I don't think you've flown in a while. I've never paid LESS than $600 a ticket. I alone am keeping several bankrupt airlines in business.

God forbid we be one of the 868 people injured in a 15 year period (what's that break out to? one a day???) or one of 3 in a 5 year period who are killed. You know what? If my children, god forbid were killed in a plane crash, I'm a believer, and believe that it was their time to go.

In the meantime, keep your obsessions to yourself. Buy a carseat for your own kid, and leave the rest of us alone.

Sorry - this really strikes a nerve with me.

If you consider the issue of safety an "obsession", so be it. This thread was posted with the attempt at educating and sharing information. IMO, your anger issues aren't with the OP, but with the fact that you have to fly so often with kids and with the poor customer service you receive from the airlines. Hell, if I was paying as much as you allude to paying (by keeping "bankrupt airlines in business") I'd be firing off a letter or phone call to said airlines to complain. It appears you have taken personal offense to the OP's thread where none exists. In the meantime, keep your frustrations to yourself and don't take it so personally. Your obvious contempt for those that can and choose to use a car seat while flying, is really misguided IMO. You choose not to use one, someone else does...so what's the problem? Why cop an attitude on this thread and speak to some as if they are crazy or "obsessive" or something if they chose to use one? MANY parents have no idea that CRS use is acceptable while flying and even encouraged. If a parent doesn't know, then they don't have a choice.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Mom of 4 peppers- The need for under 2 year old people to be properly restrained while flying is NOT a miopic view of parents of singletons. It is what the FAA recommends. It is a FACT that the safest way for a person under 2 to fly is properly buckled into a properly installed carseat. It is a FACT that the safest place for a person over 2 is properly buckled into an airplane seat. I will not argue that it is a pain in the butt to haul car seats and kids and all their stuff. I know lots of people with multiple children that lug carseats through airports. I also have a friend that regularly travels with her 4 kids and 2 of them are in car seats. It is a major thing to get through the airport, but she manages.

My question is why is the safety of a person under 2 worth less then a person over 2. Everything else on that plane has to be strapped down for take-off and landing. Why not the most precious thing of all? Our children.

It seems that the cost of plane tickets is a factor here. How much is your childs safety worth?? If your kid isn't worth $500 - how about $200 or maybe $50???????


----------



## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MinnieMouse*
I've heard a number of people say it was quite easy to have an unticketed passenger come to the gate w/ them to help when traveling alone w/ kids. I'm sorry that weren't able to do this.

Sure, before Sept 11th you could accompany people to the gate. After though NO ONE for ANY REASON may come through security without a ticket. Just ask one of the sheeple that work there if they would allow it.

I don't think mom4peppers is entirely concerned wether or not YOU put your child in a carseat, it is that the tone of the op looked down on those of us don't use carseats. Also those that are advocating making yet ANOTHER law against the freedom to raise kids as we wish. Wether or not I put my child in a carseat is of no consequence to anyone but myself. If my child dies because of my choice, that's something I have to deal with. The government should have no say in what I do with my kids.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bailey228*
Wether or not I put my child in a carseat is of no consequence to anyone but myself. If my child dies because of my choice, that's something I have to deal with. The government should have no say in what I do with my kids.

That's actually not true.

~~~ may be disturbing ~~~

In the event of severe turbulence or a crash, your unbuckled child becomes a projectile that could severely injure other passengers. There are legitimate public interest reasons for requiring all passengers, even children, to have a seat with a belt or other restraint.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zach'smom*

It seems that the cost of plane tickets is a factor here. How much is your childs safety worth?? If your kid isn't worth $500 - how about $200 or maybe $50???????

Would you say the same to a person that saved $50 on a carseat by buying a lower rated seat? Or how about someone that could not afford the very safest car? Or what about someone that could only afford a very old, small car that is known to be significantly less safe than the currently made, highest rated car? The latter being a much riskier choice than any sort of air travel. If my choice is to get to go somewhere fun and exciting for the entire family or stay home because I did not have $500 extra to buy an under 2 yo their own seat in order to prevent a miniscule risk, I am going on the trip. We weigh our risks. I have no problem with people that do/can buy he seat. And I have no problem with people that cannot. I do have a problem with people inferring that I am an uncaring money-pinching jerk of a parent if I choose not to buy the seat for whatever reason. My guess is that if this were really a significant risk, the FAA would mandate that people buy seats for babies of all ages. I do not think it is not a significant risk. I personally have done both....bought the seat when I could afford it, and not other times.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

If it is so safe for people under the age of two to be unrestrained why are the rest of the passengers, baggage and coffee pot required to be restrained???????







:


----------



## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
Yeah, you moms of one think brining a car seat is no big deal. .

right...us fake moms









sorry that just was funny to me. yes, I realize it's about 234389439 times harder to do it with twins (my best friend had twins when she was 17 and I spent a lot of time with them so I'm not naive).

but I still would bring a carseat for dd. I agree, minimal risk, but I'd just prefer to have her in it.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zach'smom*
If it is so safe for people under the age of two to be unrestrained why are the rest of the passengers, baggage and coffee pot required to be restrained???????







:


They're not... the coffee pot and all, that is. Only when the seatbelt sign is on.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy*
That's actually not true.

~~~ may be disturbing ~~~

In the event of severe turbulence or a crash, your unbuckled child becomes a projectile that could severely injure other passengers. There are legitimate public interest reasons for requiring all passengers, even children, to have a seat with a belt or other restraint.









:
I would be a REALLY pissed off and hurt mama if YOUR child who was not restrained, flew through the air and injured or killed my child.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Let me rephrase...

If it is so safe for people under 2 to fly unrestrained DURING TAKE-OFF, LANDING, DURING TURBULANCE, OR AN EMERGENCY SUCH AS ABORTED TAKE-OFF OR A BELLY LANDING OR ANY OTHER REASON WHEN THE SEATBELT SIGN IS ON, why are the rest of the passengers, baggage and coffee pot required to be restrained properly???







:


----------



## MinnieMouse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bailey228*
Sure, before Sept 11th you could accompany people to the gate. After though NO ONE for ANY REASON may come through security without a ticket. Just ask one of the sheeple that work there if they would allow it.

I don't think mom4peppers is entirely concerned wether or not YOU put your child in a carseat, it is that the tone of the op looked down on those of us don't use carseats. Also those that are advocating making yet ANOTHER law against the freedom to raise kids as we wish. Wether or not I put my child in a carseat is of no consequence to anyone but myself. If my child dies because of my choice, that's something I have to deal with. The government should have no say in what I do with my kids.

Actually, I am talking about AFTER 9/11. I know a number of people that have requested, and received, permission for an unticketed passenger to accompany them to the gate.

And I agree w/ a previous poster...YOUR unsecured child can fly through the air and injure other passengers so it isn't "of no consequence" to everyone else flying w/ you.

My response was directed at someone that specifically told me (us) to "keep our obsessions to ourselves" so no she wasn't concerned that we use a car seat on airplanes but that I posted that we do so!

It boils down to this... "I" will do everything in my power to ensure that my children are safe...within reason. If "I" feel that "within reason" means that we as a family don't fly somewhere unless we ALL have seats on the airplane..then that is MY "within reason." YOU may not think it's reasonable and that is YOUR opinion. I'm fine w/ that as you seem to have all the info to make your decision. I believe this thread was started so that ALL that read it would have the info... what someone does w/ the info from there..is up to them.

'nuf said


----------



## shell024 (May 21, 2005)

this is a really interesting thread, as I will be traveling domestically and internationally soon with ds (he will be about 6 months old) and have been debating this issue with myself.

I *think* I will be trying to get him a seat (originally wasn't going to...but I will double check what the price will be...my ticket alone will be near $1800, plus dp's!!







).

For me, if I end up flying by myself with ds (dp might leave 2 weeks later), the thing that really concerns me is feeding during takeoff and landing. I can't stand the thought of his ears and the pressure/pain! Someone suggested a bottle or trying to feed while they are in the seat (I wouldn't be able to do this)...I might think about this.

Curious to hear more thoughts on this!


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

As to feeding an infant while in a car seat. I think some people might be forgetting that with a baby under a year you can rear face the car seat (and its better to anyway) and since you will only have a lap belt it is somewhat possible to nurse during take off and landing. My son did take a bottle when he was younger, so I think I did a bottle on the outgoing flight, but on the return flight I did not have a breast pump so I would either give him water in a bottle (he was older than six months his first flight) or reach over and nurse him. Not always easy, and I am sure some would not be able to do it perhaps, but its worth seeing if you can. I didn't have the arm rest down either, that made it easier. Imagine nursing your child in a rear facing car seat while in the back of the car, with just a lap belt and no shoulder restraint. If you are opposed to bottles, or your kid won't take one, you can try either cup feeding, straw feeding, or if your baby actually eats food, just giving them a snack. Its the swallowing, not nursing that is required to help with pressurization. My boy was an early straw feeder, definitely under a year, can't remember how young though he had to be over six months as I didn't start giving him water until then.

Anyway, hopefully that gives you some helpful tips. As for the prices, be sure to ask for discounts for children in their own seat who are under 2. International flights you might end up with a bassinet, but domestic flights there are no such animals.


----------



## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

you can ask to get some kind of special pass for someone to help you to the gate. i have not done it but the flight attendants (that actually walked me all the way out past security to find my dp when we were getting home from a trip!) told me that i could call ahead the next time and get him back there to help us!

not sure how that works internationally, but on domestic flights, it could be helpful.


----------



## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

I'm a little confused. . .

So people here are advocating that a child should be restrained so that he isn't injured or injures anyone else because of severe turbulence that my happen during take off and landing. Okay, I get that.

But then it's perfectly okay to lean over and put your breast in said child's mouth so that said severe turbulence can thurst your [much] heavier body against your child's, possibly injurying or killing him/her?

Seems quite contradictory if you ask me.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
As to feeding an infant while in a car seat. I think some people might be forgetting that with a baby under a year you can rear face the car seat (and its better to anyway) and since you will only have a lap belt it is somewhat possible to nurse during take off and landing.

Okay... this is just ridiculous. There is NO way to nurse while being buckled in tightly, with or without shoulder belt. I have a high-needs baby that I tried nursing a million times while being buckled in beside her (rear-facing) because she screamed her head off the minute she went into the car seat. I used to think that at least we could go SOMEWHERE if I nursed her in her carseat. It's IMPOSSIBLE without loosening your restraints enough to be on your knees and leaning over precariously. During turbulence... no, your child won't be the human projectile that might hurt other passengers... YOU are the human projectile instead.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

This is a bit of a tangent, but I have nursed a rear-facing baby while buckled into a lap and shoulder belt with my back against the seat and my feet on the floor. I have huge floppy boobs. I don't know if I would actually *do* this on an airplane, but it is possible for some of us.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

crazydiamond- I wouldn't recommend bfing your baby during severe turbulance!!! Baby needsto be buckled in during take-off, landing, AND turbulance. The reason everyone and everything needs to be buckled in during take-off and landing is that is the time an emergency is most likely to happen.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

Okay... this is just ridiculous. There is NO way to nurse while being buckled in tightly, with or without shoulder belt.
Please don't tell me that I can't do something that I have done! Yes, it is possible for some of us, and no I did not loosen my restraint in any way. I was not on my knees, nor leaning precariously. I cannot do it in a car, nor would I try, but I did do it once while in an airplane. I find it interesting that you are suddenly worried about the baby getting hurt? I will wait to hear from one of the CPS techs on the board, and if they say it shouldn't be done, I will listen to their wisdom. That's the wonderful thing about this place, you can actually learn something and change your behavior because of it! I never started out thinking child restraints for under 2's on planes were safer, but after listening to my CPS friend on another list, I made up my mind to always get a seat for my babies.

The actual point was that you can equal the pressurization in a baby riding in a car seat on a plane in various ways other than having them sitting in your lap and nursing. If you are concerned about the child's safety with its mother's boob in its mouth, while strapped in a car seat, then give it something else.

ETA, no I would not breastfeed my child during any turbulence or emergency!


----------



## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zach'smom*
crazydiamond- I wouldn't recommend bfing your baby during severe turbulance!!! Baby needsto be buckled in during take-off, landing, AND turbulance. The reason everyone and everything needs to be buckled in during take-off and landing is that is the time an emergency is most likely to happen.

Sure, but Jwebbal made the point that turbulence can happen at any time and can be completely unexpected. So you might be smooth sailing, leaning over and nursing your baby when it suddenly hits. Still doesn't seem all that safe to me. But then again I'm one of those people that cannot nurse across seats like that. I'm only 5'0" and even with my big floppy breasts, am much too short to lean over that far. I know some mamas can, but I'd still question whether doing so is safe.

In any case, I can definitely see the case being made for using the carseat for takeoff, landing, and turbulence, but I'd probably opt to give a pacifier, bottle, clean finger, or something else instead of BFing.

But I also agree with the other ladies that the risk is incredibly small and if I had multiple children I'd probably reconsider bringing carseats for all of them. As it stands, though, I only have one child so it's not terribly inconvenient to bring one for her and I probably will when it comes time to fly.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

My 5'9" best friend can't do it without loosening the straps on the carseat. You must be very tall.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Nope, average 5'4'' but with large and floppy breasts. Like I said, only did it once in a pinch (baby was not eating food fulltime) and no breast pump with me. I did not need to loosen either his straps nor my seat belt. His seat was rear facing though. I would fully recommend using a bottle with either EBM or water over what I did, totally.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

5'5", and I was a 42H when I did it (baby was about three months old and my boobs were at their absolute biggest). Baby was in the center back seat and I was back seat, passenger side.

It wasn't comfortable and I also only did it once when I felt I had no other option, but I do think it was safe -- as I wrote earlier, baby was in a 5-point harness and I was in lap and shoulder belt (neither loosened at all) with my back against the seat and my feet on the floor.


----------



## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

Wow. Interesting thread.

We travel by air about four or five times a year and have so for nearly five years. We live in Europe now and travel in Europe so our flights are not as long as some mentioned here. However, when we moved from Colorado to Czech Republic, that was a long flight indeed. My daughter was 13 months old at the time. We bought a ticket for her so she had her own seat and yes, we had her carseat. But during takeoff and landing or when she was bored in her seat (which was most of the time LOL), I held her on my lap to nurse or play and used the secondary lapbelt looped to my own mentioned above (can't remember who posted that). My daughter hated her car seat and screamed bloody murder when put in it. Now as she is older, I realize that was most likely due to car sickness and nausea that wasn't able to express verbally, unless in a scream <wink>.

I would like to say something and I'm going to try to say this as gently as possible: you do not have to fly with your children. No one is forcing you to travel. Yes, we all wish there were so many options that every parent felt comfortable with the level of safety. But there aren't. We can write letters to airlines and such and try to change things for the better. But right now, at this moment, we only have what is available to us. And we, as parents, can decide to deal with those options and travel. Or we can choose not to travel.

Also, yes, it's true. You can call ahead and try to get help with all your luggage (carseats, bags, etc). You can use carts up to certain points in an airport. In some countries, I've had many helpful people offer to carry something for me. In some countries, I've gotten a blank stare and maybe even a roll of the eyes when I asked for help. As travellers, we must all be prepared to go it alone and if we feel we can't, we can opt to not travel. Choices, people. It's all about the choices we make.


----------



## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

What about lap babies in slings? When dd was a nursling, I always took her in a sling. I could see that the rings of the ring sling may not have stood up to a crash, but it was surely better than nothing. Maybe that's what they need for small babies: Safety Slings that have buckles like the seat belts.


----------



## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Thank you Bailey for more eloquently stating what I was trying to. I read the OP as a "call to arms" so to speak to make legislation for carseats on planes. Which is why I responded as strongly as I did. I HAVE flown with my singleton in her carseat (which did NOT fit through the aisles - I had to carry it over my head with her in it) so it's not a matter of me being opposed to carseats per se, it's the logistics of two 2-year-olds plus newborn, (three carseats) only three seats across an aisle. And two arms. When I gave birth to twins, unfortunately I didn't sprout two additional pairs of arms to carry their carseats. Ok, which of you awesome mommas is willing to fly with a completely strange 2 year old so everyone can sit securely in their own carseat? Or should all three kids be forced to sit by themselves? (wish I had a way to indicate just how dreamy that actually sounds to me!)

It does strike me as a little odd that mommas on this forum are so willing to not take the risk with their babies on an airline based on government statistics (FAA) but are incredibly willing to disregard the recommendations when it comes to co-sleeping. Didn't anyone read the "latest study" that confirms that babies die sleeping in their parent's bed?

I don't personally care what you chose or don't choose to do regarding the safety of your kids. Just don't legislate what YOU think I should do.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollykatsmom*
What about lap babies in slings? When dd was a nursling, I always took her in a sling. I could see that the rings of the ring sling may not have stood up to a crash, but it was surely better than nothing. Maybe that's what they need for small babies: Safety Slings that have buckles like the seat belts.

European carriers DO have what you are describing. The "call to arms" that people are talking about shouldn't be about making babies ride in carseats on airplanes. It should be to make US carriers provide the same extension baby belts that loop onto momma's belt that European carriers do. They are safe, convenient, and solve the problem brilliantly!!


----------



## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Can anybody tell me what issue american airlines (in general, not the specific company) have with lap-seat belts for the under two's?? Seriously, with my little people, on all of our flights in various versions of hell, we always had a lap-seat belt given to us for the baby. Over two, & they are strapped into a big seat, kwim?

But not on US domestic flights. Pre-9/11, with a baby, I asked a flight attendant why JAL (Japanese AIrlines) had baby-belts, & why her domestic airline did not......

She got cranky with me, & said they (the lap-seat belt) were actually more unsafe than an unrestrained child.

........................

I reckon she was full of shit, tbh.

She still wouldn't give me a belt, tho, so I had to ride out that landing with an unrestrained 7 month old in my arms. Bucketloads of fun.







:

.........................

But on an Australian note, Qantas has lap-seat belts for the under twos, that or you stick them in a regular belt if the seat next to you is empty. Bigger kids must have their own seat, of course.
..............................
Maybe everyone should come to AUstralia for their next overseas holiday....


----------



## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bailey228*
Sure, before Sept 11th you could accompany people to the gate. After though NO ONE for ANY REASON may come through security without a ticket. Just ask one of the sheeple that work there if they would allow it.

I Wether or not I put my child in a carseat is of no consequence to anyone but myself. If my child dies because of my choice, that's something I have to deal with. The government should have no say in what I do with my kids.


1. I know from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that you are WRONG regarding non-ticketed people not being allowed to accompany a ticketed passenger to the gate. There ARE exceptions.

2. If your child becomes a projectile that harms another passenger, I fail to see how that is 'of no consequence' to anyone else on the plane.


----------



## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
I totally DISAGREE with the notion of strapping your under-2 year olds into their own carseats on a plane. it strikes me as such a myopic view of parents of singletons.

In the post 9/11 era in the US, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get help to the gate. Non-ticketed passenger, sorry. You can't help your pregnant wife and twin 18 month olds to the gate. Yeah, you moms of one think brining a car seat is no big deal. Try struggling with carseats, twins, backpacks, and strollers through the rediculous "security" measures by yourself. Airlines help? Uh, no they don't. Service people? No way. And, they can't bring you onto the plane. Ever try to corral toddlers and Britax carseats by yourself? With flight attendants who just look at you? The world is not a perfect place. And airline tickets for less than $500? I don't think you've flown in a while. I've never paid LESS than $600 a ticket. I alone am keeping several bankrupt airlines in business.

.


1. I have three children, a set of twins followed by a singleton 13 months later. It was never an option to travel with my children on an airplane if they were NOT restrained in their car seats. Period.

2. Your argument strikes me as lazy to be honest. If I couldn't manage to get my children AND their car seats on the plane, we wouldn't fly. The end. Actually, we DIDN'T fly until my youngest was over 3 years old. We lived on an island for over 3 years, so driving wasn't exactly an option either. But their safety came first.

3. When we DID finally leave the island we were living on, it was my husband, myself, our three children (4 year old twins and a 3 year old), 3 Britax Marathons (not the smallest car seats on the planet), 10 suitcases, 5 carry on suitcases, 3 backpacks, one messenger bag, one computer bag and a single stroller.

We MADE IT WORK. None of my three were under 2 at the time, but we STILL put them in their car seats. They are SAFER in their car seats, and what possible EXCUSE could we have to NOT use their car seats? Because we didn't want to deal with lugging them through the airport? That just seems so lame to me.

As for buying tickets for the under 2 age group, IMO if you cannot afford to buy the baby a ticket, you need to travel by some other means of transportation. I can't imagine the horror of looking myself in the mirror every day if I knew my child was dead or injured because I didn't fork out the extra $200+ for their own ticket.

A comment on the airline ticket prices...we purchased over a dozen tickets from several different locations in the continental United States for friends/relatives to visit while we were living in our little tropical paradise. I NEVER paid more than $750 for a ticket, and that was from an itty bitty airport in the South with less than 7 days notice, travelling from Saturday to Saturday (the most expensive days to fly to where we lived). I cannot fathom routinely paying $600+ for airline tickets within the continental US.

I was THRILLED when we moved, as ticket prices to where we are now are around $200 within a week of travel.


----------



## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

I've been reading this thread with interest as I have always bought a seat for DC#1. Our first flight with the baby will be this March to Australia (coming to see you Aussiemum!) and we simply can't afford a seat for all four of us so she will be a lap baby. We've reserved bassinets for the baby both directions on the overseas flights and I'm going to get one of those new lap harnesses.

My question for anyone who has used the bassinets is: are they attached to the plane so they won't fly around during turbulence? On the way over we're in a bulkhead and on the way back they've got a "floor bassinet" reserved for us.

Has anyone every used one of the lap harnesses? I'm talking about the red ones that are like a vest for the baby and that clip into my seatbelt.

TIA!!


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Moochie Mama- Are you talking about the lap harnesses you see in a lot of baby product magazines? They are not approved for use during take off and landing. All they are good for is to keep baby from bouncing away from you in case of turbulance.


----------



## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

: moochie mamma

March is a great time to visit Australia. You'll have a blast!







Sorry, it's a bit OT , but how long do you have here, & where are you planning to go?

re: airplane bassinets. From memory, it's a little box that straps onto a plastic tray that folds out of the bulkhead. I've never seen one with straps to actually hold the baby in the bassinet, altho surely that would be easy enough for the engineers to devise, & for the airline to install....

I don't know what a floor bassinet is, & I haven't used a lap harness other than those given to me by the airlines.

..................

wifeandmom. It sounds to me like you have made the best possible choices _for you & yours_ when it comes to travelling by plane. I can certainly sympathise with living on an island where there's no way off except to fly. Drive is definitely not an option if I want to visit my family.









However, just because I decided to fly without carseats (based on practicality, tbh) for my young children..... well, I don't think that makes me lame. I reckon it makes me more sane at the end of a two day epic journey involving 5 different flights through 6 different airports..... On my own, with the two kids...... Anyway, I'm not picking a fight.







Just pointing out the view from my universe.


----------



## astra (Jan 21, 2006)

We've flown many times with a lap child. We bought a Baby B'Air, which is a vest that the child can wear, which helps protect the infant during unexpected turbluance. It is not approved for take off and landings. Even if we had brought a carseat, there would be times when he would be out of it, for changing, and stuff like that, which could lead to injuries. (in our case my son spent the first months of his life in a carseat free environment, and he now has carseat issues, and it would be a long flight with him screaming nonstop strapped in his carseat)

I read that the JetBlue flight that had the crash landing, with no landing gear, had four lap infants, all of which were uninjured. I would think if many children are getting injured each year, we'd hear about it on TV.









Yes, without a doubt it is safest in the carseat. But we seriously spend a lot of time researching it, and feel like the chance of injury happening are slim. There is a slim chance for him to get injured every day.

I feel that once a child can stand up, it is a good idea to try to get them their own seat. Because if we had to place him on the floor during a crash landing, it would be more difficult to keep him in the laying down crash landing position. ANd I am hoping by then my son will be more adjusted to carseat travel









And in the case of a crash landing, I do think the floor is safer, than in the mother's arms. The child is more apt to become an air bag, or thrown from the parent's arm.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

The Baby B'air is the one I was thinking of. I realize it's not approved for takeoff and landing but I would just use it or a sling during those times anyway. Other people have told me that they do the same









Aussiemum: We're coming for 3 weeks and will spend one week in Cabarita and 2 weeks in Byron Bay. Are you near these spots? We lived in Oz from Dec 03- June 04 and spent a month in Sydney (Manly Beach) and the other 5 months in Byron. I loooooved it there and didn't want to come home. We'd love to relocate there- just not sure how to do it. I'm an RN and I've heard you are needing nurses so I could probably get in on a work visa if I wanted to work full-time and have DH be the SAHP. That wouldn't work for a while though since our baby is only 6 months and won't take a bottle- I'm also not ready to leave her. Maybe after both kids are in school all day.


----------



## changa (Jun 22, 2005)

I don't want to be too harsh here, but if the plane crashes, we're all gonna die. It's like being struck by lightening (and just as likely). I don't plan for it because there isn't much you could do, and it probably won't happen.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Actually I was just reading about how in plane crashes, the people who are more likely to survive are those who prepare and listen to all safety instructions etc. It was really interesting actually and had interviews with people who have survived plane crashes, etc. So, it isn't necessarily plane crash=death.


----------



## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

There are two issues here: a plane crash and plane turbulance.

Crashes occur 90% of the time during takeoffs and landings. The FAA mandates everyone be belted in, coffee pots tied down, etc. during these times because post-crash studies demonstrated that common items like cups were imbedded into the walls of the plane from the force of the crash, not to mention if you need to evacuate, it goes much faster if the aisles are clear of take-on items. Provided the crash is survivable, if it is necessary to evacuate the plane, flight attendants have 90 seconds to clear all passengers as that is about the length of time you'll have to get out before toxic fumes build up and have the possibility of igniting. (which is why you're always reminded to check to see if your nearest exit is behind you). Children under 2 are recommended to be placed on the floor during a crash to minimize their liklihood of becoming airborne (and thus a danger more to themselves rather than other passengers). So if your child is strapped into a carseat, and there is a crash, you'll have 90 seconds to unbuckle yourself, your child(ren) AND climb over the seats to the nearest exit. I guess you could always HOPE that some stranger will help you, but in the adreneline-fueled atmosphere of a crash, that's taking a pretty big risk. Not to mention, the statistics just don't bear out that keeping your kids in a carseat will actually protect them. Or as a pp stated, we'd be hearing about kids being killed in crashes. But if it makes you feel better to have your kids strapped in, by all means take your carseats.

The second issue is turbulance. Sometimes turbulance is anticipated, sometimes not. As the pp stated, 863 passengers were hurt as a result of turbulance, 861 of them were unrestrained. One inference from these statistics could be that the turbulance was UNEXPECTED. ("ladies and gentlemen this is the captain speaking. I'm turning off the fasten-seatbelt sign, but we do recommend for your safety that you keep it fastened whenever you are in your seat"). And as many of you who are proponents of carseats on airplanes have stated, you would anticipate times when your child would be unrestrained. So it would be reasonable to assume that you could find yourself with your child unrestrained, and you could hit unexpected turbulance. In that instance, bringing a carseat would do no good.

I understand the primal desire to keep our kids safe and "do everything possible" to make sure that happens. The reality just doesn't support making any changes to the current system regarding children and carseats in airplanes.


----------



## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Just wanted to add that when we flew twice to DC with dd when she was under two and didn't have her own seat we had to remove her from the sling during takeoff and landing. Never happened when flying to Chicago. So I think flying into DC has different rules. If I had it to do all over again I still wouldn't buy dd a seat on an airplane as an infant. All she ever wanted to do during a flight was nurse or sleep in my arms. Bringing a carseat would have been pointless.

Also, if you do bring your carseat you had better be sure that you know how to properly install it. I've seen at least 3 mothers turned down by FA when they requested help attaching their carseat b/c the FAs don't want to be liable if it's not installed correctly. Given that what 70% or more of self-installed carseats are done incorrectly, I can't help but wonder how much safer is the average infant in a carseat on an airplane than in their mother's arms.


----------



## changa (Jun 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Actually I was just reading about how in plane crashes, the people who are more likely to survive are those who prepare and listen to all safety instructions etc. It was really interesting actually and had interviews with people who have survived plane crashes, etc. So, it isn't necessarily plane crash=death.

People have survived being hit by lightning too. Most people on planes listen to the safety info, so the fact that most survivors paid attention just shows that it didn't help the other people, not that it did help the survivors.

I suspect that a sling is just as secure as a carseat, and in an airplane or even a bus I would just use the sling. It's just not going to make that much of a difference.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Actually, the article went very in depth, and it was a lot more complex than that. I am pretty sure it was a macleans.ca article if anyone wants to search their archives for more info. I can't be bothered.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changa*
I suspect that a sling is just as secure as a carseat, and in an airplane or even a bus I would just use the sling. It's just not going to make that much of a difference.

A sling is NOT just as secure as a car seat. That statement is blatantly incorrect. Period.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks for starting this thread, Jwebbal. I've been following this discussion with great interest. Your timing couldn't be better. We're planning to fly with DD to Asia in the summer and I've been wondering about this issue. The more I think about it the more inclined I am to have DD in a safety seat. Sure it will be inconvenient but I'm with those who weigh the risks/benefits and end up on the side of having my baby in her safety seat. For me it comes down to "Could I live with myself if something happened to my child that could have been prevented had I bought them a ticket/car seat?'

I may not have to lug my car seat on board the plane after all. The airline we plan to fly on (Japan Airlines) rents Britax Roundabout safety seats if you give at least 96 hours notice. Of course the earlier you tell them the better because they may not have enough Roundabouts available.

I wish driving was an option for me. No matter where I visit the world even if it's just to another US State I have to fly. A 9 hour plane ride with my baby on my lap means little time for me to eat or relax. A safety seat while cumbersome would make my life easier.

Of course if the plane crashes many people, including babies, may die. But I thought this discussion wasn't so much about plane crashes as it is of informing interested parents about a way to keep their baby safer on board a plane.


----------



## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I want to find out where all the airports are where it's so easy for a nonticketed person to go to the gate. In SFO, it's impossible. There's an official protocol for it in certain cases - like parents picking up children flying alone - but actually using it is a whole nother story.


----------

