# blood and pus in cow milk



## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry about the gross title... I've read on some anti-milk sites that there's blood and/or pus in cow milk and I'm wondering how it gets there. Some say it's because the cows are so full of hormones that their udders are swollen and infected, but is the pus actually *in* the milk? Nursing mothers are encouraged to continue nursing through bouts of mastitis and are assured that no yucky stuff will get into their milk. What's different about cows w/ mastitis?

I'm not trying to make an argument for drinking animal milk. I agree that it's not nutritionally necessary for humans. I just want to understand the assertion that it's contaminated.


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## Fiona2 (Dec 21, 2003)

Yes, milk is allowed to contain a certain amount of pus, although there is a limit. The amount of pus present in milk is called the 'somatic cell count' - if you do a search for this you should find pro as well as anti milk sites which tell you about pus in milk. In the UK about 40% of cows have mastitis in any given year - the main cause of pus in milk, although other infections can contribute. Hope that helps.


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## mama2annabelle (Dec 29, 2002)

Any milk one can typically get at the grocery store is not going to be healthy, whether it's from blood and pus, antibiotics, pasturization, homogenation, etc.
I would image the horrible, inhumane dairy farming practices are the cause of the blood and pus in the milk. Those cows are given hormones to boost their milk production to an amount insanely unnatural and then pumped full of antibiotics to prevent infections.

I would definitely encourage anyone interested in dairy to find a small local organic farm. In my opinion that's the ONLY healthy milk you can get.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

I understand about the dirty, inhumane conditions on factory farms, and that the cows are pumped full of hormones to increase their supply. What I don't get is *how* the pus gets in the milk. If a lactating woman gets mastitis, there's no pus in her milk (at least that's what I've been led to believe). Also, some of the no milk sites make it sound like even organic milk is contaminated.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

I think the point is that this is an induced form of mastitis.

I had mastitis 3 times while bf my daughter.... and also had a cracked nipple (cracked entirely down the center) and when I would pump, it would flap open and shoot streams of PURE blood into my milk. However, I *knew* that my milk was still safe to drink, because my blood and my milk all come from MY body, KWIM? I had some white stuff on the cracks, but it was more milk build-up than pus.

NOW, if I had mastitis, and the cracked nipple (and trust me, if you're a dairy cow, those machines are waaaaaay stronger than my nice, comfy little pump, so I'm guessing cracked doesn't even begin to describe what it feels like!) is never given a chance to heal........ well, it might get truly all-out infected, to where contaminated pus is in the milk.

I treated my nipples with lansinoh and made sure they got fresh air and made sure I was treating my mastitis ASAP.... so it didn't abcess.....

I'm pretty sure those poor cows are not getting the same loving care.

Kimberly


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

Pus (white blood cells) gets into the milk mostly due to tiny tears in the inside of the udder. Most dairy cows are now injected with bovine growth hormone-BGH- which causes them to produce about 20 times the milk than they would naturally. Due to this, their udders grow huge-usually to the point where they drag on the ground. So, with an enlarged udder, the tears are not so tiny anymore, and white blood cells (pus) rush to the area to heal the tears and fight the infections they cause. This elevated amount of cells (and blood) goes right into the milk when the cow is milked. So, while all milk, even organic, antibiotic free milk contains pus (because all udders tear a little on the inside) it's the commercial, non organic milk that really contains alot of it. Hope this was helpful!


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kimberlylibby_
*
I treated my nipples with lansinoh and made sure they got fresh air and made sure I was treating my mastitis ASAP.... so it didn't abcess.....

I'm pretty sure those poor cows are not getting the same loving care.
*
I'm going to do my song and dance again, so here goes:

I used to work on a small dairy farm that was part of the Cabot collective.

Cows on huge factory dairy farms are probably not getting the same TLC that you (and I) give our boobs when we have plugged ducts or mastitis.

However, keep in mind that cows (just like us) will lose their milk, at least in the affected quarter, if the infection is allowed to continue. No one wants that, least of all the owner, as it means less milk and hence less money.

On our farm (with about 40 head actively milking at any given time), we jumped right on the first signs of mastitis. We stripped the heck out of the affected teat(s), applied ointment and, where indicated, gave antibiotics. We also never, EVER milked a cow with suspected or confirmed mastitis into the tank. Holy moly, we'd be goners if we did. The boss would've had our hides.

FYI, I have NO clue what PETA and other organizations of its ilk could possibly have in mind when they talk about blood in the milk. Huh? Like, maybe if there's some raging infection and someone milks into the tank, some blood platelets get in, but please refer to the above if you have any question about how much pus-infected milk gets into the milk supply.

Oh, BTW, cows with mastitis can have the most disgusting, huge clots of pus I've ever seen. Nothing like what I experienced, myself, when I had plugged ducts. But even one little clot meant no tank for that cow's milk, and set the whole mastitis treatment machine in motion.

And as one more BTW, if you're concerned about this issue, then buy only organic or small collective dairy products.


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## Annie7 (Dec 29, 2003)

For it/against it.... Puss/no puss... blood/no blood.... It all comes down to this one *FACT* : it's breast milk from a cow. Most people wouldn't drink breast milk from a cat, dog, horse,rat, hippo, etc..... why is it looked upon so differently ?


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

Ha. So true.

In fact, I recall, when I was pumping for my daughter, a few NASTY remarks about how GROSS it was that I was joking about putting MY milk in our lasagna.

WHY? It's HUMAN milk? Why is HUMAN milk creepy? WHY is the milk of a cow's udder somehow "okay" and "normal" but another human's milk is "creepy"?

I don't get it. It is SO SO SO SO SO disgusting for me to think about nursing off of a cow (yes, just for a second, appease me, close your eyes and imagine how nice it would be to wrap your lips around the udder of a cow and slurp away).

I'm betting $10 you thought THAT was gross! OF COURSE IT IS!! It's a COW!!! We weren't MADE to drink off of a cow's udder or we would have been born as baby calves!!!

Gotta go, I think I see a goat coming down the street... maybe I can get it to stop so I can get a quick drink (that's a joke!).

Kimberly


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, it seems so unnatural to me too! Imagine a cat nursing off of a dog, or a rat nursing off of a pig.....the word weird comes to mind! That's how I feel about humans drinking the milk from a cow. Humans are the only species that not only consume the milk of another animal, but drinks it beyond the nursing phase. Besides, cows have three stomachs to digest their milk-we obviously only have one stomach, and also, the milk of a cow is meant to make the calf grow hundreds of pounds in a very short time- it seems completely unsuitable for humans to me. I think the only milk we where meant to drink is that of our mother's breast, not from another animal with completely different anatomy and needs!


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## NaturalMamma (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kimberlylibby_

WHY? It's HUMAN milk? Why is HUMAN milk creepy? WHY is the milk of a cow's udder somehow "okay" and "normal" but another human's milk is "creepy"?









I love this comment! What a good point! Now, if someone could give me some recipes for mamma's milk yogurt and cheese, I'll be all set.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

I don't get it. It is SO SO SO SO SO disgusting for me to think about nursing off of a cow (yes, just for a second, appease me, close your eyes and imagine how nice it would be to wrap your lips around the udder of a cow and slurp away).
Nah. Most of us at the source used a thumb and two fingers and shot a jet of warm, fresh milk into our mouth. Yum!

I wouldn't put my mouth on a cow's udder, either, even after it's been disinfected (you spray iodine solution on it before milking and wipe the teats down till they're clean), just because of the "ew, this is gross and kinda weird" factor.

...the same "ew, this is gross and kinda weird" factor that many folks cite in opposition to breastfeeding and in opposition to using human milk in cooking.

Think about that.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Yeah, It's all a case of conditioning. Like sushi---ewww, raw fish!? Um, yeah, its yummy.

I have had raw warm milk at a farm in Wisconson when I was a little kid. Not from the teat, but in a cup.

I have seen pix of inter-species nursing too. Cats/ dogs /rabbits. It works when there is no better alternative.

Of course, we almost always have the better alternative, it is hanging off our chests. Functioning mammary glands. For those whose mammary glands do not function properly (whether from primary lactation failure, severely inverted nipples, adoption, or etc), and we have several on this board, use the alternative--either another human mom's donated milk, if you can get it, or ABM.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

See, I buy your "conditioning" thing.... but I think we've just been societally conditioned to think of cow's milk as normal.

Very few people think about cow's milk as being a cow's milk, made for it's baby. In fact, when I tell my friends to think about it being a cow's breastmilk, they're like "ewwwwww, gross! just don't talk about it that way!!" What? Talk about it like it really is?

Sorry, I refuse to lie in ignorance and deny that the drinking the milk of a cow is abnormal for any species except our twisted "must dominate at all costs" human species.

Kimberly


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

here is a link of on going documentation ( NOT FROM PETA) that follows trends in pus. pus allowed in milk

Quote:

Stress in general is thought to cause elevated somatic cell counts. University of Florida scientists2 suggest heat stress and high humidity as reasons for somatic cell counts to increase during the summer months. First, heat stress may amplify the cow's susceptibility to infection by decreasing her resistance to mastitis-causing pathogens. Secondly, warm, humid weather favors the growth of mastitis-causing pathogens which increases the chances of pathogens entering the cow's udder.
yep, just like humans.
Just do a search on dairy mastitis management and you will see it is a HUGE business-
I have also read in my travels that amount of pus is a direct influence of dairy shelf life. The lesser amounts means a longer shelf life for the product.pictures and study
Marlena- I have heard you praise Cabot before, and have read about Cabot too. I am glad they are committed to a family-oriented style of dairy production. Now if they can share that committment with the rest of the factory farms


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

The poor, poor cows







Thank you for all the info. on both sides of the issue. I, too, have had mastitis and was quite ill (104 temp, felt like I'd been hit by a truck), but I never could have imagined the scenario of the cows w/ huge pus clots and cracked, bleeding udders. Now it makes sense how the milk gets contaminated. I appreciate the info. about the sick cows that were treated kindly.

As far as our society's attitude toward human milk, yeah that's messed up. I grew up drinking tons of cow milk and so did almost everyone I know, so most people just accept it as normal. Only as an adult did I start to think about the source and get a little grossed out. I only buy organic, but recently have been thinking of issues beyond hormones/antibiotics/cruelty. I don't drink milk, but I use it in stuff and I sometimes eat yogurt and cheese. I've often thought about giving it all up, so I want to learn as much as I can whether pro or con. As far as I can see, the only pro is that ice-cream and cheese taste so yummy!

Any way, thanks everyone!


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

Mmmm, ice cream and cheese ARE yummy.

I love sorbet though! And a can of frozen peaches, thrown in the blender.... YUM!

For cheese, I make a gorgeous nutritional yeast sauce that is great for dipping tortilla chips in







YUM YUM









Kimberly


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## Erin Pavlina (Nov 11, 2001)

Non-dairy ice cream and cheese taste good too. I thought I would miss cheese and ice cream when I went vegan, but there are great subs now.

Soy Delicious purely decadent is a great ice cream line.

And Vegan Gourmet Cheese alternative is a great non-dairy cheese.

Go here to see a list of other great products to use instead.


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## jayayenay (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kimberlylibby_
*For cheese, I make a gorgeous nutritional yeast sauce that is great for dipping tortilla chips in*
That sounds great! Would you be willing to share the recipe?


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

Erin is right- the non dairy stuff also tasts great. When my husband went vegan for health reasons, he thought he would miss cheese and ice cream, but was pleasantly surprised by the great non dairy ice creams (soy delicious is our favorite- I served it at my dd's b-day party, and all of the dairy eaters said it was better than cow milk ice cream, and were scrambling for pens to write down where they could get it!) and the non dairy cheeses. I use them on pizzas (I even bring a bag of grated non dairy cheese to the pizza place, and they put it on for me instead of their stuff) and I make lasagna, casseroles, scalloped potatoes....all the same things, just non dairy.


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## Momma's Arms (Dec 1, 2003)

Arwen-

Would you mind sharing what type of cheese you have found to work well on pizzas? All I've found locally are Mellissa's and Veggie Slice. VS has no taste IMO and Mellissa's shreds don't really melt. The slices do, but they leave an odd coating on my teeth. Anyway- I'd love to start making pizzas again.

Thanks


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## Annie7 (Dec 29, 2003)

Cheese, cream cheese, sour cream, and definitely ice cream.... I have ONE word for all of you.....
Tofutti !


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

Tofutti !








I completely agree! I love the sour cream, ice cream sandwiches, cream cheese spread, all of it. Good product, never disappointed. And no pus that I am aware of


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## mama2annabelle (Dec 29, 2002)

I used to eat tofutto better than cream cheese all the time...that is until I read the label and realized that it has hydrogenated oil in it


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

I use vegan gourmet, by follow your heart. You can order it from their web site, which I don't remember what it is, but you can do a search for vegan gourmet cheese and will probably find it. It melts, a little thinner than cow cheese, but if you place it under the broiler for a couple minuts once it's melted, it helps alot!


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mama2annabelle_
*I used to eat tofutto better than cream cheese all the time...that is until I read the label and realized that it has hydrogenated oil in it














*
Yes, that's the problem w/ a lot of the meat/dairy substitutes. They're highly processed and/or full of unhealthy, unnatural ingredients. Cream cheese or Tofutti. Pus or plastic. What a choice!


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Sure, and your veggies are also potentially contaminated with bacteria that can cause food poisoning. The world is full of life forms, and a huge number of those life forms are bacteria. Get over it, already! Criminey, haven't most of us allowed our babies to nurse when we've had plugged ducts or mastitis? Or another type of infection? Not to get too graphic, but do any of you ever have oral sex? I mean, come on, folks!

/rant

FWIW, I think it's much healthier to eat minimally-processed foods, including foodstuffs that we've been eating for millennia, such as dairy products. I have no idea why anyone would think that a highly-processed soy product containing trans-fats would be a superior choice over, say, ice cream made with about 4 or 5 otherwise unprocessed or minimally-processed items, total.


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

Yes, hydrogenated oil (trans fats) is a real problem. I refuse to eat it, so luckily, there are now non dairy products that are free of it. I use a non hydrogenated, trans fat free butter substitute, which is full of essential fatty acids that are still usable because they have not been destroyed by hydrogenation. But, I think the main issue for those of us that don't eat dairy is ethical. Alot of people would rather consume hydrogenated oil than contribute to the cruelty of the dairy industry, which also supports the veal trade, among other things. Pus or no pus, for me not eating dairy is about my morals, and it just happens to also gross me out, but the gross out is not the motivating factor for me.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

You know, humans are the only animals who eat soy-based dairy substitutes. Besides, the nutrients in soybeans were intended to nourish little soybean seedlings, not feed humans.


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marlena_
*And as one more BTW, if you're concerned about this issue, then buy only organic or small collective dairy products.*
Right you are, and that's exactly what I do.

Milk from a small dairy has a kind of nutty flavor, not that kind of off/sour flavor I don't like. Also, the small dairy sells cream that lists one ingrediant-- cream. No carageenan or geletin or whatever it is they use to thicken grocery store "cream".

I also get goat milk yogurt from a local goat dairy and it has a lovely sort of goat-cheese flavor to it.

I will not even buy grocery store milk any more because the quality is so inferior to milk from small dairies.

--AmyB


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## vein (Mar 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by KeysMama_

I have also read in my travels that amount of pus is a direct influence of dairy shelf life. The lesser amounts means a longer shelf life for the [/B]
!!! I am so happy I stumbled across this and I'm SO happy you posted this. I thought I was just going nuts or imagining things.

I was always finding that regular non-organic milk went nasty tasting usually WAY before the expiration date - opened or unopened. But, in the few years I've insisted on at least no growth hormone milk (before switching to organic, we'd only purchase hormone free milk sold by a local dairy) it seems that the milk doesn't get the "lipstick taste" (as I used to call it - it tasted like nasty old needing to be thrown out cheap lipstick) and tasted great well beyond the sell by date. Even the non ultra pasturized organic milk seems to be usable, even after opening it, well more than a week after sell by, which is good, because we use so little.

Even shelf life length issues aside, the taste of non organic is just gross IMO as opposed to organic.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Daffodil_
*You know, humans are the only animals who eat soy-based dairy substitutes. Besides, the nutrients in soybeans were intended to nourish little soybean seedlings, not feed humans.







*
Thanks!!! I have been reading along and *dying* to post this for a while. I repect the decision to be vegan or any other life choice. I think there are lots of great reasons to make such a choice. however, the "Humans are the only animals who drink the milk of another" reason is bogus. We are also the only animals that eat Marizipan, Tofu and Salad Dressing! in addition, the only reason other omnivourous animals dont drink the milk of others is that they cant get to it- illustrated by the dairy cat who will approach a cow and drink milk right from her teat! It happens a lot. If other omnivourous animals could get to the milk of others, they would drink it. would it be the best thing for them? depends on what their options were. do i think factory farms are evil? yes, i do.

because we are animals who are able to do as we please- be it inventing air conditioning or drinking cows milk, we bear the responsibility of making good choices. we shouldnt abuse our earth and fellow animals just because we can. but then, not everything we do that animals cannot is evil. other species dont post on discussion boards, either, should we?

tabitha


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## ChiknGirl (Apr 22, 2003)

Thank you for your post Tabitha. I completely agree.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Daffodil_
*You know, humans are the only animals who eat soy-based dairy substitutes. Besides, the nutrients in soybeans were intended to nourish little soybean seedlings, not feed humans.







*
:grin


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

*Tabitha:*


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tabitha_
*Thanks!!! I have been reading along and *dying* to post this for a while. I repect the decision to be vegan or any other life choice. I think there are lots of great reasons to make such a choice. however, the "Humans are the only animals who drink the milk of another" reason is bogus. We are also the only animals that eat Marizipan, Tofu and Salad Dressing! in addition, the only reason other omnivourous animals dont drink the milk of others is that they cant get to it- illustrated by the dairy cat who will approach a cow and drink milk right from her teat! It happens a lot. If other omnivourous animals could get to the milk of others, they would drink it. would it be the best thing for them? depends on what their options were. do i think factory farms are evil? yes, i do.

because we are animals who are able to do as we please- be it inventing air conditioning or drinking cows milk, we bear the responsibility of making good choices. we shouldnt abuse our earth and fellow animals just because we can. but then, not everything we do that animals cannot is evil. other species dont post on discussion boards, either, should we?

tabitha*










and thank you Marlena for your posts regarding organic dairy farming


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

...Tofutti have improved their product range and now also make non-hydrogenated versions.

Warmly,
Michelle in NY


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## Annie7 (Dec 29, 2003)

Holy Cow Boobs, Batman!!! Some people still don't get it!!!


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## village idiot (Feb 19, 2003)

So I guess it really goes without saying that cheese and yogurt made from non organic cow's milk probably has pus and/or blood in it.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marlena_
*Sure, and your veggies are also potentially contaminated with bacteria that can cause food poisoning. The world is full of life forms, and a huge number of those life forms are bacteria. Get over it, already!*
Yes, but you can wash your veggies! I do agree w/ you that it's better to eat real dairy products from a small organic farm than processed substitutes. If my only choices were factory-farm dairy and hydrogenated chemical crap, I'd do without! Luckily, we do have choices, whether they include eating animal products or not.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Exactly- we have a choice to be vegan or not, and its a personal choice. I grew up on a small dairy farm and drank fresh warm milk- not from the teat- but dipped out of the tank. I also don't always eat peas out of the pod with my teeth- but shell them and have a nice big bowl.

The cattle I grew up with were on a nice pasture in the WI hills- and each had a name, which they knew and often came to when called. We had a lot of older cows- including more than one who lived past the age of twenty- milking half the year and spending half in the resting dry cow pasture.

We do a lot of weird stuff as a species- and drinking cow's milk or eating cheese is not the worst of it, in my opinion. I won't buy factory farmed milk or milk products- but I do think there are worse violences in the world than supporting small, organic farms.

On the mastistis- I washed the cows (on my folk's farm) and helped milk them and any cow treated for mastitis needed to milked into a hand bucket and the milk dumped. The milk was tested and if a trace of antibiotic or if the cell counts or bacteria were over a certain level, we would get cited or shut down.

Like another person said, the "ew" factor is often present about breastfeeding mothers as well. Some people are uncomfortable with natural processes- thinking they are unclean.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by nomadmom_
*Yes, but you can wash your veggies!*
And you can pasteurize your milk! In fact, all of the milk in your local grocery store has likely been pasteurized!


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Annie7_
*For it/against it.... Puss/no puss... blood/no blood.... It all comes down to this one FACT : it's breast milk from a cow. Most people wouldn't drink breast milk from a cat, dog, horse,rat, hippo, etc..... why is it looked upon so differently ?







*
...

Quote:

*Holy Cow Boobs, Batman!!! Some people still don't get it!!!*

Annie7, I really do respect your opinion and life choices. But i dont see why you are so incredulous that not everyone will _recoil in horror_ at the thought of milk in the way that you do.

as others have pointed out, breastfeeding is not disgusting. milk from any mammal is decidedly a nourishing substance, and meant to nourish, meant to leave the mother's body and be consumed. this is true of little soybeans and the fruit of a peach- these substances are meant to leave the 'mother' and nourish the young. they are by defintition fit for consumption- that does not mean that humans should consume them all, many fruit are poisonous or downright nasty to taste. also, each individual person has the right to choose what they want to consume. do i want to consume fungi? do i want to consume the milk of another species? should i eat peaches? some are moral choices for some people. some are personal preference. and it gets more complicated- should i eat organic peaches only? organic dairy? and so on.

i can say firmly, Annie7, i am not disgusted by thinking of cow's milk as breastmilk from a cow,any more than i am disgusted by thinking of my son's nursing as 'consuming my bodily fluids'. i dont sit around and think of how the (organic) mushrooms i eat are nourished by cow shite. even if i did,it would not disgust me, as my body as an inhabitant of earth is made of some of the very same components as cow shite.

we all should make our own informed decisions. and not rely on loaded phrases to make them. "breastmilk from a cow" may disgust some, but to me it is just words.

on a diffferent note,what Arwen posted earlier had me emailing my local dairy.

Quote:

*But, I think the main issue for those of us that don't eat dairy is ethical. Alot of people would rather consume hydrogenated oil than contribute to the cruelty of the dairy industry, which also supports the veal trade, among other things.*
I emailed immediatley my local organic dairy, Strauss Creamery, and received such a great answer. No, my milk *does not* support the veal trade!! The female calves are kept to be raised as organic milking cows. The male calves are sold to be raised as organic beef cattle. If the veal trade is of concern to you i suggest anyone also email or call their organic milk source. Mine was quick to reply and ease my mind.









we have a very strict diet in our home. it has developed over time as we adhere to new causes and discover new ways to live. we feel good about our choices and the most i can hope for anyone else is that they feel good about thier choices, too.

tabitha


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

Wow, it's great that the dairy you use does not sell their calves to be raised as veal, as so many do. I wish everyone who drank milk would actually take the initiative to contact their dairy to find out as you did, and only buy from the ones that don't support that. I was mainly refering to larger farms in reference to the veal trade and cruelty I mentioned, which unfortunatly can also be present at the smaller, organic farms. If all farms where like Monnie's, which she mentiontioned above, I would definitly be much happier!


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## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, I definitely feel for the cows and I can see the point about interspecies nursing.

But I really enjoy cow's milk. It's yummy and creamy. I also like rice milk and soy milk and almond milk and all that.

But really, is it so evil to drink cow's milk?

Because this thread is getting a little hot under the collar.


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## Annie7 (Dec 29, 2003)

Of course it's not evil, and is certainly is a personal choice. I also agree that breast feeding is completely natural. For babies. Mommy dog/baby dog... Mommy rabbit/baby rabbit... Mommy cow/grown up human? That's all I'm getting at. Just when (literally) did that become "natural"?


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

When is it natural for us to eat fish eggs? Or artichokes? Or cocoa?

We're omnivores. Our food choices are enormously diverse. The only thing that naturally limits our consumption of something that some other animals eat - say, alfalfa hay - is our inability to digest it reasonably, or its toxicity to our system. What we choose to eat or not eat on ethical or health or other grounds is another matter.

I just don't understand some of the arguments made here; they appear to have little rational basis.

On a different note, does anyone have any info right on hand on the breeds of cattle used in the veal industry? (Otherwise, I'll just do a web search). Holsteins are not wonderful for eating (though of course they're used - just usually not for prime or even choice meat). It would surprise me - a little, at least - to find that they were used to produce meat for a premium meat industry such as veal.


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

It is usually holstein calves that are used, as it is the process the calves go through (forced anemia and extreme conefinement), rather than their breed that makes them premium. The dairy industry is so strongly tied with the veal industry due to the fact that cows, like humans, only produce milk when expecting a baby. Farmers have to impregnate dairy cows when their milk runs dry. If they have a female, it is usually raised to produce milk, but the males are sent to veal companies, or to meat suppliers to be raised for meat. Some veal companies may use other breeds as well, but I don't know much about that particular subject other than holsteins are commonly used. Hope that helped.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Arwen is right about the Holstein calves going to veal. This is the most common practice for the males- the female calves go back into the herd. There is the problem of what to do with so many male calves. A more humane- which I know is debatable- practice is sending them to an organic beef farm where they can grow up on pasture, hopefully.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Quote:

The dairy industry is so strongly tied with the veal industry due to the fact that cows, like humans, only produce milk when expecting a baby.
Just to clarify, I presume that cows, like humans, continue to produce milk after the calf is born as long as their udders are stimulated by milking. I've heard it said that humans can breastfeed for up to 6 years (maybe more?).

Anyone know how long a cow produces milk if milked daily before it dries up?


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marlena_
*And you can pasteurize your milk! In fact, all of the milk in your local grocery store has likely been pasteurized!*
That's not the same as washing, whereby the offensive substance is actually removed. Pasteurized milk still contains bacteria; it's just dead. Same as cooking meat will kill any e coli it might contain, but won't change the fact that it has poop in it.

I've been able to get raw and/or organic dairy right from the farm. I didn't understand how, in a clean and caring situation, a healthy cow's milk could contain blood/pus. This discussion has grown far beyond what I intended, but I'm not sorry because it's all very interesting. So, I'll keep on reading even though my original question was answered a long time ago.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Island Mommy_
*Just to clarify, I presume that cows, like humans, continue to produce milk after the calf is born as long as their udders are stimulated by milking. I've heard it said that humans can breastfeed for up to 6 years (maybe more?).

Anyone know how long a cow produces milk if milked daily before it dries up?*
Cows don't milk that long producing cost-effective amounts of milk. Back when I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, milk was prized for its butterfat content, and butterfat content increases as milk production declines. That also meant a sturdy, long-milking cow that stayed in the herd was prized. Even the cows disposition was a factor in breeding! The cows might be kept milking along even if they weren't rebred right away.

There is a different type of cow now valued- an almost disposable cow- one that calves young, produces volumes of milk and her lifespan is of secondary importance. Even so, I doubt any cow can go a year milking at an economically fesable level.

Her production will taper off if she doesn't have another calf. The cow is rebred soon- often shot full of hormones to bring her into heat with the rest of the herd and produce another calf so she is at optimum production again. This is so far from anything natural. Quite horrible.


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## Fiona2 (Dec 21, 2003)

Quote:

The only thing that naturally limits our consumption of something that some other animals eat - say, alfafa hay - is our inability to digest it reasonably, or its toxicity to our system.
Exactly. Most people do have problems digesting milk - globally, lactose intolerance is the norm.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Fiona2_
*Exactly. Most people do have problems digesting milk - globally, lactose intolerance is the norm.*
Even if this were true- there is much disagreement about lactose and lactase and how 'lactose intolerance' occurs-

many poeple are also allergic to soy. yet is is not then 'unnatural' for all hunmankind to eat soy- just a bad idea for those allergic to it. peanuts, strawberries, wheat- all high allergen occurance yet it makes no sense to say, 'so many are intolerant of such and such, must be unnatural to eat it'

as omnivores it is our *nature* to eat whatever sustains us and does us no harm. there are today plenty of things that are unnaturally consumed by humans- hydrogentated oils that would not exist in nature, Olean, splenda... and i also believe that the milk of cows unnaturally tainted with genetically engineered hormones is unfit for consumption.

monnie- i have also just emailed my dairy to ask about this. all i could learn from their FAQ was the general lifespan of their cattle. i will post when i know. i asjed how long the interval between births is and whether or not they use artificial means like hormones to impregnate them.

nomadmom- thanks for the cool thread, however off topic it is now. i also find it interesting.

and just a note, Marlena, i do live in a health concious part of the world but i have several stores here where i can easily buy organic unpasteurized cream and milk. i love living here









tabitha


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I don't know if lactose intolerance is the norm- I don't have it and neither do a lot of people I know. I do have a soy allergy and so does my ds, so do my sister, nephews, mom and brother. Soy intolerance is widespread- it is right up there with wheat, eggs, citrus-- I think eating wheat and soy might be as unnatural as eating dairy, if you go by what people can't tolerate. My doctor suspected dairy was the cause of my ds's eczema- but I removed it from his diet for 2 months and it turned out that soy, tomatoes, citrus, nuts and gluten were the problems- these are all plant foods. There goes the argument that plant foods are good- animal products bad.

Tabitha, I'm pretty sure organic farms can't use hormone inhjections to bring the cows into heat- I'd be interested in knowing that for sure. I buy all my milk organic hoping this is the case.


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## Arwen (Dec 23, 2003)

I am pretty sure that if it's certified organic, they cannot by law use hormones. They inject the cows with sperm usually, a process alot of farmers call 'the rape rack' (gross name....), so I don't think the cows have to be forced into heat with hormones. This artificial insemination is legal for organic farms and non organic farms, but hormones are not. Unfortunatly, with dairy, unlike veggies and meat, the organic rules are not strictly enforced- I think it really varies from farm to farm, so it's just a matter of knowing your farm and how strongly they adhere to the guidlines.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Annie7_
*Of course it's not evil, and is certainly is a personal choice. I also agree that breast feeding is completely natural. For babies. Mommy dog/baby dog... Mommy rabbit/baby rabbit... Mommy cow/grown up human? That's all I'm getting at. Just when (literally) did that become "natural"?*
I don't have any accurate historical info., but I'm sure that at some point in time a human somewhere was in need of food and animal milk (not just cow--sheep, goat and even horse milk are comsumed by humans in many cultures) offered needed nourishment. Or maybe someone just decided to try it and found that they liked the taste. I think it's probably a combination of necessity and our natural curiosity.


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## Annie7 (Dec 29, 2003)

That must have been one MIGHTY surprised cow!!


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

People have been drinking the milk of other species for centuries! Maybe even thousands of years - probably thousands. The mongolians used to drink sour mare's milk! How gross is that!


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

That's not the same as washing, whereby the offensive substance is actually removed. Pasteurized milk still contains bacteria; it's just dead.
So what?

Quote:

and just a note, Marlena, i do live in a health concious part of the world but i have several stores here where i can easily buy organic unpasteurized cream and milk. i love living here
Cool!







Here in Houston, I don't think it's available, but we can at least get some raw milk cheeses here.

Quote:

The mongolians used to drink sour mare's milk! How gross is that!
They still do - in fact, it forms the backbone of their diet, as I understand.

Again, what may seem disgusting to you may be delicious to someone else. Please don't make global judgments on the basis of taste.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Thanks for the info re veal calves, Arwen!









http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/...IRING%20CALVES

Quote:

The majority of calves (mostly Holstein males) destined to become grain fed veal are purchased at community auction barns or from commissioned buyers. ... The purchase of 3 to 7 day old calves from local dairy farms, although a sound practice, does not lend itself to filling a room or barn quickly. It may, however, be an ideal situation for growers who have ample time to supervise individual feeding programs for several calves, or for calves being started in a hutch housing system. Growers purchasing calves directly from dairy farms can make special arrangements to ensure that calves receive adequate colostrum and injections of vitamins and selenium at birth.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Marlena - Drinking sour mare's milk sounds gross to me..... I'm not trying to offend anyone on a global basis.







Actually I was trying to be funny! And it was my opinion, not a global opinion. There are things that I do that would sound gross to the Mongols. If I ever happen to have a conversation with someone from Mongolia and they said "Gross, how do you eat that?" I would not be offended.

Please don't make judgements on the basis of what you read....

Just read it. The comment was made in a humorous vien.... Sometimes it is hard to get that in text.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marlena_
*So what?
*
My point was that if there's something on your veggies that bothers you, you can wash it off. You can't wash pus out of milk. Maybe that doesn't bother some people. Maybe it doesn't bother me. I got the information I was looking for and now I am better able to make decisions about what I want to eat.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Annie7_
*That must have been one MIGHTY surprised cow!!







*
I suppose so, but if the person took the milk gently maybe the cow wouldn't have minded. Maybe, if the person treated it well, it would grow fond of the person and gladly share its milk. I know that's a far cry from the experience of most cows today, but it doesn't mean that the original "cow-milk-drinking person" was wrong. Humans today certainly don't drink animal milk out of necessity, but I was answering a question about how people began to look upon it as a suitable food in the first place.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lab_
*Actually I was trying to be funny!*










Sorry about the misunderstanding!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

The cow might not have been very surprised. As anyone who has been on a small farm or had a "backyard cow" knows, they develop a very close relationship with their humans and can be quite loving and protective of their "family." Maybe long ago someone raised an orphan calf and it bonded to them and when it grew and joined a herd, she allowed someone to milk it- maybe first as food for an orphaned baby or something... then people discovered it tasted good and maybe was a way to avoid killing for meat and still getting food in tough times or when only grass was available (fit food for cattle not humans).

I remember as a child, the cattle licking me off and me laying against the side of my pet cow in the pasture-- they can develop a close realtionship with humans, and vice versa.


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## TingTing (Jan 12, 2004)

I've heard of pussy milk, yes, but bloody milk? Mmmkay&#8230;

My perception of milk/dairy consumption is somewhat similar to my perception of infant formula. I don't believe cow's milk (or the milk of any other species) is "natural" for humans anymore than formula is for infants. However, when foods more naturally suited to humans (those which provide the kinds of nutrients also found in cow's milk) are not available, it's an alternative just as formula is when breast milk is absolutely not an option. Though the name escapes me now, I know there's a traditional semi-nomadic tribal group in sub-saharan Africa who depends on its cows' milk for nourishment because the land it inhabits is largely unsuitable for farming. That makes sense to me. Otherwise, though, while I've never and would never criticize anyone for choosing to eat/drink dairy, I don't think there's much of an argument for it being "natural" for humans the way edible plants are (and yes, I loathe to say, the same goes for Tofutti! :LOL ).

I've heard about the Mongolians as well. It's interesting that a population whose traditionally consumed dairy so heavily borders one who generally views dairy consumption as revolting. I spent a part of my childhood in mainland China while my parents worked there and for my dairy lovin' family (my folks are British, after all, and obviously enough this was loooong before I went vegan) it was quite a chore to get our hands on cow's milk, and our friends/neighbors there found the whole matter obnoxious and gross. For an interesting cultural comparison - and at the risk of crassness, I know - you know how Westerners often think Chinese people smell of fish/seafood? Well, Chinese people think we all smell of sour milk (of course, both have valid points since body odors come partly from food). At my current workplace all but a couple of my co-workers are Chinese and the attitudes are the same - not a single one of them likes dairy products. One of my co-workers will actually gag at the smell if anyone brings cheese anywhere on the premises, lol. They're not above pushing meat on me sometimes, though


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## mom2noah (Oct 12, 2003)

For cheese, I make a gorgeous nutritional yeast sauce that is great for dipping tortilla chips in







YUM YUM









Ooh, can you post the recipe?


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## Melissa S (Dec 30, 2003)

My husband used to be a foreman on a dairy farm so I can speak to this. When the owners were on holidays we took all the kids out and did the milking together. The cows are stripped first. This means their teats are disinfected and milk samples are taken from each quarter. A cow has four quarters, one for each teat, and if the cow has mastitis it is usually only in only one quarter. If any blood/pus shows up during stripping it is logged and noted that the cow should not be milked on that quarter. instead, the machine is hooked up but the milk drains into a pan instead of going into the milk line. When it appears the cow's milk is clear she is hooked up again. We had to be very meticulous and check and double check the logs. It was stressed that we needed to avoid mistakes but I suppose mistakes can be made. This private farm sold their milk to Dairy Producers (in Canada) but I think it was very bad for business if it was discovered the milk was tainted.

What I don't like about dairies is that the calves are taken away from the moms as soon as their milk comes in so the calves get colustrum but after that nothing. The calves are put in a separate pen by the milking cows and they get the first portion from the milked cows. It comes out of the lines and they drink it out of pails, so unnatural, poor little things.


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