# "Extreme" babywearing (pics I took in N. Thailand)



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Taken outside Chiang Rai:

going for a ride
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...11846/file.jpg

slinging and swinging
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...11867/file.jpg


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh I love it! I rode with my 13 month old in a sling in the Taxi in Mexico and I felt very nervous! My dh has done the bike riding with a ergo and baby before. Great pictures!


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

Hey
Ilaria!
How cool! Womyn...how do you guys manage to travel everywhere so much?
Whatever you guys's profession is...its great you can travel so much!
Um, what is your profession? It must be sooo great for your kids!


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

My profession is 'mama', it's pretty cool!









My dh is CFO for Intel Philippines, so that's why we live here...and we just love to travel all around SE Asia.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is _not_ cool.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Aww! Beautiful pics!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is _not_ cool.









Driving around in a car is pretty extreme when you think about it. Other countries see things differently, and I don't think our culture is any more right or righteous than theirs. Even on the storch site you can see (or used to be able to, I haven't looked in a bit) parents riding bicycles with babes on their backs. Try that here and people *die*. But driving 100km/h++ in a tin car and nobody bats an eye.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

I don't think anyone here is condoning anything. It is a fact that in SE Asia, a motorbike is a means of transport for the whole family (I have seen a family of 6 on one once: mom, dad, 3 kids, 1 infant) and no helmets either. I happen to think that a sling is safer than a baby who has to hold on to dad/mom on his own.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars

They can hardly afford food, they are happy they get a bowl of rice a day. In a developing country, 'safety' has a very different meaning...look at this toy this child was happily playing with..
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...38996/file.jpg

As for _"There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken."_...as parents we make choices for our kids everyday that others might consider 'uncool'. SOme might find homebirthing, non vaxing and EN extreme too.
It's all perspective.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't think riding a bike with a baby strapped to your back, no protection at all, is comparable to riding in a car with your baby in a carseat. Like I said, I understand the cultural differences and that they cannot afford much. In my perspective, it isn't safe or cool to have a bab on a motorbike at all. I don't need to be explained that others might see it differently, because the pictures are proof enough of that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I don't think riding a bike with a baby strapped to your back, no protection at all, is comparable to riding in a car with your baby in a carseat. Like I said, I understand the cultural differences and that they cannot afford much. In my perspective, it isn't safe or cool. I don't need to be explained that others might see it differently, because the pictures are proof enough of that.

It's a different world, mama...


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

The one on the swing is ok (but I wouldn't do it for fear of fallin on baby), but when I saw the one on the motor bike all I could think of was "No helmets!" Also if they did fall there is a chance of the man landing on top of the baby. Too scary for me, but then I don't ive there and my perspective is way differnt.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilaria* 
a developing country, 'safety' has a very different meaning...look at this toy this child was happily playing with..
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...38996/file.jpg

As for _"There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken."_...as parents we make choices for our kids everyday that others might consider 'uncool'. SOme might find homebirthing, non vaxing and EN extreme too.
It's all perspective.









Anyone else think of "The Continuum Concept" when looking at that pic?









Yes, perspective is what it boils down too. I love seeing the pics even if I wouldn't do what is in the pic.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
Anyone else think of "The Continuum Concept" when looking at that pic?










I did...but I basically live in TCC society!
He was running around full speed pantless (EC, of course!), having a ball with his big knife. The adults around got mad beacuse he was chasing chickens, not because of the knife. When my 6 year old saw the scene, he said: _That doesn't seem like such a good a idea..._


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

And to think that the people at Mesa Verde thought _I_ was extreme by taking the tour with my baby in a Mai Tei!!!


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

Ummm, I've done the swinging one. But with an Ergo. She was sitting on my lap. She loved it!


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## momazon4 (Dec 19, 2006)

Babywearing is such an engrained way of life there that they do not even consider the safety aspects. While risk to babes is not cool, having babywearing be second nature in a culture IS!!!!! I have a cleaning job and dd (5 months now) is the happiest sling babe ever. I am on the agenda of a meeting to be held Thursday because I clean while "carrying" a baby.







I'm on salary, not wage and my work cannot be critiqued, just that dd is worn on me.... I wish babywearing was "normal" here, too.


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is _not_ cool.


Honestly, id rather see a baby strapped to a parents back on a bike than sitting on the parents lap.
In Iran-a country I go to regularly and have dual-citizenship, EVERYONE uses a bike and normally its mom, dad and 2-3 kids sitting on a tiny little bike! 1 up front on dads lap, 1 in the middle on moms lap and the eldest in the way back, holding on for dear life!
Frankly...its a fact of life there and in many countries that bikes are the normal way for a family to get from site A to site B...cars are too expensive...and from seeing many babies tottering on their moms lap, i'd much rather see them strapped onto their moms as its much safer.

So Id hafta disagree, but only because Ive seen similar situations in real life and while I refuse to "bike" it when in Iran...Its a VERY common occurance...


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is _not_ cool.

It's not for you to commend. It's not for you to applaud.

These folks are not "babywearing" to be cool or AP parents. It's the only way to get around. I can't tell you how grateful I was for my air-bag equipped car and car seat when I returned from Ghana where I think *1* car I rode in actually had seat belts. In Nigeria, very few folks wear helmets and it is common to see a mother wearing her baby on a motorbike--at least in the village.

If nothing else, these pictures can give us who are wealthier something to be grateful for--that we can afford safer ways of transporting our children--even if it's buses and trains.


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

Actually, after I wrote my post, I thought to myself...duh I should of added how we had no right to comment anyway as to what they are doing.

Who are we to deem what is appropriate or inappropriate in any culture but our own...and any attempts on our or anyone elses part is merely a sign of North American cultural imperialism...

Its like how Americans tend to think down on Iranian women wearing chadors...yet, Americans have no right to comment...if you dont know the culture nor are PART of the culture...what right does anyone have to make assumptions and deem what behaviurs or manners of dress are apprioriate or inappropriate.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilaria* 
...look at this toy this child was happily playing with..
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...38996/file.jpg









My heart dropped when I looked at that pic!


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Different strokes for different folks.

I thought it was pretty sweet.

As for the child playing with the knife -- well, maybe we'd have less anxiety if we took a different approach to things ourselves.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I used to swing with DD in my ring sling almost every night when she was first born. It was the only way she'd go to sleep without me having to stand and sway for hours on end.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'd rather not see a baby on a bike at all.

Others commended and applauded it, saying it's cool and whatnot. If they have that right, I certainly have the right to do the opposite. I understand that they are not doing it to be cool or AP; that still doesn't change the fact that I think it is unsafe and not ok. I am thankful that I can afford safer ways of transporting my babies, and as I have said REPEATEDLY, I understand that they cannot and that there are cultural differences. It still doesn't make me think that this is okay. I'm not deeming anything appropriate or inappropriate; I'm stating my own opinion, not creating law. Others here have responded saying they think it is appropriate and fine; I have every right to say it's not. So get off my not-crunchy-enough back k?







I think babywearing is great and that we could learn a lot from cultures for whom it is second nature; that doesn't mean I think any better of babies on bikes.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmIbrahim* 
Actually, after I wrote my post, I thought to myself...duh I should of added how we had no right to comment anyway as to what they are doing.

Who are we to deem what is appropriate or inappropriate in any culture but our own...and any attempts on our or anyone elses part is merely a sign of North American cultural imperialism...

Its like how Americans tend to think down on Iranian women wearing chadors...yet, Americans have no right to comment...if you dont know the culture nor are PART of the culture...what right does anyone have to make assumptions and deem what behaviurs or manners of dress are apprioriate or inappropriate.









:


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## jul511riv (Mar 16, 2006)

awesome pix!


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I don't think riding a bike with a baby strapped to your back, no protection at all, is comparable to riding in a car with your baby in a carseat. Like I said, I understand the cultural differences and that they cannot afford much. In my perspective, it isn't safe or cool to have a bab on a motorbike at all. I don't need to be explained that others might see it differently, because the pictures are proof enough of that.

i think this shows how little some people understand about how other cultures work.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmIbrahim* 
Honestly, id rather see a baby strapped to a parents back on a bike than sitting on the parents lap.
In Iran-a country I go to regularly and have dual-citizenship, EVERYONE uses a bike and normally its mom, dad and 2-3 kids sitting on a tiny little bike! 1 up front on dads lap, 1 in the middle on moms lap and the eldest in the way back, holding on for dear life!
Frankly...its a fact of life there and in many countries that bikes are the normal way for a family to get from site A to site B...cars are too expensive...and from seeing many babies tottering on their moms lap, i'd much rather see them strapped onto their moms as its much safer.

So Id hafta disagree, but only because Ive seen similar situations in real life and while I refuse to "bike" it when in Iran...Its a VERY common occurance...

I agree with you, as someone who regularly travels outside of the country i can tell you that while we are westerns would find this scary or even dangerous it is actually much better than their other options.


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## kristinc (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmIbrahim* 
Honestly, id rather see a baby strapped to a parents back on a bike than sitting on the parents lap.
In Iran-a country I go to regularly and have dual-citizenship, EVERYONE uses a bike and normally its mom, dad and 2-3 kids sitting on a tiny little bike! 1 up front on dads lap, 1 in the middle on moms lap and the eldest in the way back, holding on for dear life!
Frankly...its a fact of life there and in many countries that bikes are the normal way for a family to get from site A to site B...cars are too expensive...and from seeing many babies tottering on their moms lap, i'd much rather see them strapped onto their moms as its much safer.
...

that is how it was in holland also. the babys are in a basket on the front of a bike and it seems very safe to me. They have cars there but people prefer bikes, that is just their way of life, neither right nor wrong. Persoanlly i think the photos are awesome and it reminds us that life goes on without all of the crap that we think we need to raise babies here in the US.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I think it shows that while I do understand how other cultures work, I am a part of a different culture and thus have a different perspective. Please don't insult my intelligence by implying that I must be ignorant because I have a different point of view.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I guess my objection is based on physics, not on culture.

Crash on motorbike with no helmet/restraint/padding = direct contact with road and potentially other vehicles involved in the crash or driving nearby = likely serious injury, especially head injury.

Crash in car with car seat/restraint/padding/crumple zones = likely no direct contact with road and some degree of shock absorption done by the car, which likely= less severe injury.

I know there are no absolutes and someone can probably come up with several scenarios where a car crash would be worse than a motorbike crash, but I still can't get over the basic mass+acceleration+no protection= BIG ouch.

I'm not saying families who do this are wrong or are bad people, it just makes me worry a lot.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I guess my objection is based on physics, not on culture.

Crash on motorbike with no helmet/restraint/padding = direct contact with road and potentially other vehicles involved in the crash or driving nearby = likely serious injury, especially head injury.

Crash in car with car seat/restraint/padding/crumple zones = likely no direct contact with road and some degree of shock absorption done by the car, which likely= less severe injury.

Have no car with alla that jazz and still need to get around = cultural differences.

Is that physics? Or something else?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Have no car with alla that jazz and still need to get around = cultural differences.

Is that physics? Or something else?









I know that it's often the only option for other cultures - I'm not judging that at all, I swear I'm not - I'm purely addressing the dynamics of a potential accident in both scenarios.

I have ZERO sentiment of "omg they are horrible!" or, "what are they thinking?" or, "how uneducated" because I have NO idea what their lives are like and the choices families in other areas of the world have to make on a daily basis.

I'm simply saying that the liklihood of being injured in an accident while unrestrained and unprotected while riding on an open motorized vehicle seems significantly more likely than while riding restrained in a closed motorized vehicle. And that is a concern that comes into my head.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, you are very right IMO. It is much more dangerous.







They don't have the luxuries we do, that is simple fact. But it's a bit... offensive... for us to sit around talking about how much more dangerous it is, and OMGZ!! etc, IMO. Reality is we have different/safer/cushier choices here so we are easily scandalized relatively speaking. It's rich people sitting around gabbing about how alarming are the choices of the poor, while sipping lattes on the terrace. Kwim?


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

awesome pics, mama! looks so beautiful and laid-back there!!!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, you are very right IMO. It is much more dangerous.







They don't have the luxuries we do, that is simple fact. But it's a bit... offensive... for us to sit around talking about how much more dangerous it is, and OMGZ!! etc, IMO. Reality is we have different/safer/cushier choices here so we are easily scandalized relatively speaking. It's rich people sitting around gabbing about how alarming are the choices of the poor, while sipping lattes on the terrace. Kwim?

Yeah, I guess there's no way around that, is there? Can you discuss the danger or merit of something without judging it? I mean, it's not really a "choice" is it, if it's the only way you have to get your family around...but that doesn't make it any less dangerous.

ETA: Thinking more, why can't we talk about something being dangerous without judging the people who are doing it? Perhaps not from an OMGZ way, but a "man, that sucks" way.


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## wildmama (Feb 23, 2002)

I am confused as to when human beings were denied the right to question or criticize something just because it's an integral part of a foreign culture or something necessitated by that culture? Apartheid was an integral part of South African culture, Sharia is an integral part of many Arab cultures. Female genital mutilation is an integral part of cultures around the world. We most certainly have the right to express dismay at those practices, as we do at riding on a motorcycle with a baby strapped to your back, if we, in our own unique (albeit western--gasp!- anything but that!) perspective feel dismay about it.

The pictures were beautifully shot and can and should be appreciated as art and as a view into the part of the world where the OP is living. Thanks for showing us, clearly they were of interest.

But to any of us who are saying somehow others don't have the right to be critical or question the safety or advisability of the practices depicted, I don't get that. I say critical thought is great and I applaud it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Yeah, I guess there's no way around that, is there? Can you discuss the danger or merit of something without judging it? I mean, it's not really a "choice" is it, if it's the only way you have to get your family around...but that doesn't make it any less dangerous.

ETA: Thinking more, why can't we talk about something being dangerous without judging the people who are doing it? Perhaps not from an OMGZ way, but a "man, that sucks" way.

Well to talk about how much more dangerous it is, is to me stating the obvious. And it's just the tip of the iceberg... our shock and horror at something as simple as how most people transport themselves and their children really just speaks to how sheltered we are here in the First World, yk? The OP said most ppl are happy to get a bowl of rice each day. It's a different life.

And when you look at how we hoard too many resources and how we have actively created the poverty that exists in the Third World to benefit ourselves, it makes it all the more ridiculous to talk about dangers there, yk? It would be like someone coming in and stealing all my stuff and then sitting around with their friends making observations about how I don't have this, don't have that, etc.







Absurd, kwim? I would find it wrong whether they were clucking in judgment or remarking about 'poor her, how sad.' Either way it's ironic in a very deeply twisted way, yk?


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Hm. I just thought it was supercool to see a man wearing a baby. (My - male - partner does most of the babywearing around here, but that seems to be an exception.)

And a *quick moderator reminder* to keep this very interesting discussion on the objective level. Please refrain from offering or taking personal offense, and if you wish to report a post, please PM me, as lilylove is on personal leave at the moment. Thanks.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I guess my objection is based on physics, not on culture.









:

Physics isn't a cultural phenomenon.


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## e.naomisandoval (Aug 30, 2005)

I just skimmed over the controversy.







I am not gonna judge. I just love the photos. And I was recently told a story by a friend who had to do some "emergency" babywearing. In her situation, what else could she have done? In a nutshell, she was ditched and all she had was a pouch. To get to where she would be picked up, she had to scale a 20' wall. She put the baby in the pouch. Not the ideal carrier for the job at all but in a situation like that, there are no other options and thank goodness she had that carrier.

When I see those photos, I am glad the baby is strapped on instead of just being held.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Physics isn't a cultural phenomenon.

No, but risk assessment is.







Is it risky? Dangerous, even? To be sure. But the options aren't that or being strapped in a secured carseat in a relatively safe modern car. The options aren't even that or someone spends all their time at home taking care of the baby. The options, generally, for a family like the one in the photos, are that or not working, not getting food, not being able to make or afford shelter, not being able to _live_. And that sucks, to be sure. But babywearing while motorbike-riding isn't the problem. Extreme poverty is. Given that they live in extreme poverty, extreme babywearing is a pretty neat way of going about life. In my opinion, anyway.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *EllenSandoval* 
When I see those photos, I am glad the baby is strapped on instead of just being held.









Yup! (Plus, again with the coolness of the mancarry.







)


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

You'd have a heart attack in Iran!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I guess my objection is based on physics, not on culture.

Crash on motorbike with no helmet/restraint/padding = direct contact with road and potentially other vehicles involved in the crash or driving nearby = likely serious injury, especially head injury.

Crash in car with car seat/restraint/padding/crumple zones = likely no direct contact with road and some degree of shock absorption done by the car, which likely= less severe injury.

I know there are no absolutes and someone can probably come up with several scenarios where a car crash would be worse than a motorbike crash, but I still can't get over the basic mass+acceleration+no protection= BIG ouch.

I'm not saying families who do this are wrong or are bad people, it just makes me worry a lot.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm not trying to be all zOMG!!!11 I'm just saying it seems dangerous, and while those pictures are interesting and neat, they still worry me. That's all.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmIbrahim* 
Actually, after I wrote my post, I thought to myself...duh I should of added how we had no right to comment anyway as to what they are doing.

*Who are we to deem what is appropriate or inappropriate in any culture but our own...and any attempts on our or anyone elses part is merely a sign of North American cultural imperialism...*

Its like how Americans tend to think down on Iranian women wearing chadors...yet, Americans have no right to comment...if you dont know the culture nor are PART of the culture...what right does anyone have to make assumptions and deem what behaviurs or manners of dress are apprioriate or inappropriate.

Yes, Yes, Yes....If you don't live there then you have no idea what life or culture is like. You would be surprised at all the people here who think that the "American/western way" of doing things is irresponsible and dangerous (even to the point of drinking cold water when your pregnant).

I could say so much more but......


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

How about istead of "appropriate vs. inappropriate" (which I agree is a cultural assessment),

looking at is as

"dangerous vs. not dangerous"

That's seriously all I was trying to convey - no superiority complex here, cause I get that the option is often do this, or don't survive (in the sense of working, getting food, etc.). It doesn't mean I still can't worry about a little kid riding a motorbike without a helmet.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EllenSandoval* 
When I see those photos, I am glad the baby is strapped on instead of just being held.









Yeah, that.

Seems safer to me, if you have go somewhere on bike with a baby.

I used to ride my dad's motorbike all the time - sitting on the gas tank. I had a helmet, but it was much too big - I still wear that helmet that I got when I was 4 - it's still a little big, still, as a Ladies SM.
He always wanted me to sit really still, b/c of the steering issues. Strapped on would have been safer.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
Ummm, I've done the swinging one. But with an Ergo. She was sitting on my lap. She loved it!

I do it pretty regularly, actually -- Ergo on back, or sling on front.

Regarding "extreme" babywearing, when I saw this subject, I was thinking of something totally different. Like the time a couple of weeks ago when I was wearing about 55 pounds of kids during a 10 minute walk. That seemed plenty "extreme" to me!


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
How about istead of "appropriate vs. inappropriate" (which I agree is a cultural assessment),

looking at is as

"dangerous vs. not dangerous"

That's seriously all I was trying to convey - no superiority complex here, cause I get that the option is often do this, or don't survive (in the sense of working, getting food, etc.). It doesn't mean I still can't worry about a little kid riding a motorbike without a helmet.









But dangerous vs. not dangerous is cultural too. Here, it is actually and truly considered "dangerous" to drink cold water - esp. when pregnant, to leave your house at all in your last month of pregnancy, to have your baby at home, etc. etc. etc. These are things I don't consider dangerous because I didn't grow up in this culture but they are very important "safety rules" within this culture.

I can disagree with them sure. I mean I still drink cold water, I'm in my ninth month and still go out, I am planning a home birth. And they can disagree with me. The people here worry about me - a lot (because my ways are soo different). I'm sure they sometimes think I'm crazy. But we shouldn't downplay the mode or role of certain behaviors within a culture because of our own cultural biases. We can disagree with each other without reproach or disrespect (I am in no way saying that your post was disrespectful or that you are biased btw).

I know there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere esp. when I think of things like FGM. But I think this line has more to do with things that tend to be universally looked down upon such as murder and bodily harm, rape and torture.

Carrying your baby on a motor-bike or drinking cold water don't even approach the tip of that line - at least for me. Culturally, your views may differ.


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## Astoria (May 27, 2004)

If you actually look at the statistics, I think you'd be surprised. Because of the volume of traffic here and the sheer number of incidents, car accidents are the leading cause of death for children in America. It is truly a fairly dangerous thing to have a baby in a car. For people who have driven motorbikes their whole lives and who are less likely to encounter traffic, it may actually be a safer situation than I put my child in here in the congestion of NJ. Now, Iran may be a different story because they have lots of people on motorbikes in bad traffic. How's the traffic/accident situation there gingerbane?


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

I really don't get the controversy...maybe I have been living in SE Asia too long to see anything weird about their 'extreme' parenting practices. Yes, some are dangerous, but their life cannot be compared to ours, it doesn't even occur to me that there is a 'better' , 'safer' way... I don't even think it's weird anymore that construction workers wear flip flops and welders have wear shades!









As I leave my walled-in village every day, my car is assaulted by dozens of barefoot kids banging on my car windows and zig zagging in between moving cars selling flowers and begging. I'm talking 4 year olds. THAT is the kind of stuff that makes me cringe...a family in an unsafe mode of transportation, not so much. (not saying it's safe or recommended, it's not)

Here is another pic, this one from Bali, Indonesia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...36686/file.jpg

This one from Bohol, Philippines - a family of 5
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...18908/file.jpg

This one is from Vang Vieng, Laos, outside a school, it's rusted barbed wire he's hanging on
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...34072/file.jpg

And here is extreme expat parenting







My son taking a nap on a tuk-tuk, going from temple to temple in Angkor Wat, Cambodia









http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...62445/file.jpg


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

No, Ilaria.
I actually understand where your coming from.
Im in Iran quite frequently and its like that there.
You just cant compare and I dont think you should. While urban Iran is much the same as any other city, the rural areas...yeah you see some stuff that would make the average North American cringe but it doesnt bother me becos im used to it.

Dang, I WISH I had some pictures of all the families on motobikes while mom has on a flapping chador (okay that DOES worry me becos they get caught in the wheels easily...)

Its good your kids are experiencing other ways of living, I know i'll be glad my son will be as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilaria* 
I really don't get the controversy...maybe I have been living in SE Asia too long to see anything weird about their 'extreme' parenting practices. Yes, some are dangerous, but their life cannot be compared to ours, it doesn't even occur to me that there is a 'better' , 'safer' way... I don't even think it's weird anymore that construction workers wear flip flops and welders have wear shades!









As I leave my walled-in village every day, my car is assaulted by dozens of barefoot kids banging on my car windows and zig zagging in between moving cars selling flowers and begging. I'm talking 4 year olds. THAT is the kind of stuff that makes me cringe...a family in an unsafe mode of transportation, not so much. (not saying it's safe or recommended, it's not)

Here is another pic, this one from Bali, Indonesia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...36686/file.jpg

This one from Bohol, Philippines - a family of 5
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...18908/file.jpg

This one is from Vang Vieng, Laos, outside a school, it's rusted barbed wire he's hanging on
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...34072/file.jpg

And here is extreme expat parenting







My son taking a nap on a tuk-tuk, going from temple to temple in Angkor Wat, Cambodia








http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...62445/file.jpg


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## UmmIbrahim (Feb 16, 2007)

Here is a picture online taken in Dubai.
While Dubai is not Iran, you see the same things in Iran.

Frankly...I WISH Iranians did babywear becos id rather see the baby in a sling on mamas back or front verses her holding baby in her arms side saddle and YES this is VERY common in the Middle East.

http://www.7days.ae/cj2_photo.php?id=153


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

thanks ladies for sharing- i really enjoy seeing the pictures --
even in this country car seats are relatively new- my oldest daughter rode in a simple baby seat and later what we now consider standard fare--


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## simonboy'smommy (Jan 22, 2007)

Neat pictures. It's interesting to see how people travel in other parts of the world (other than USA i mean.) Yikes. The lady in Iran needs a sling!!That looks scary.

It really hasn't been that long since we've had car seats for babies or seat belts for anyone in the US. My dh didn't have a carseat as a babe and they didn't wear seat belts either. By the time I was born that was more standard.

There are some things we do on a farm that would really freak people out. Of course we do our best to be safe, but if you are not used to being on a farm, some things would really startle you. (Example: climbing on top of a huge hay stack piled on the top of a moving truck/wagon. And occasionally finding a wiggling snake compacted into a bale. "Is it a copper head?!?" We did that as kids.) The ways we live can be soooo different and one way can be a shock from another


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is _not_ cool.

Things are done a lot differently in other countries. I've seen babies in a little basket on the front of a bike, or just held in arms on a bike. I understand how you must feel. It's just a different way of life.


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## maymorales (Dec 9, 2006)

Controversy or not, judgment or not...
I was one of those babies in the back of the motor scooter. And if I was old enough to remember, well, I must have been a lot bigger / older than the baby in the pic. And to confirm, my mom has no shame to admit that's EXACTLY how she carried us around. for what it's worth, i recall asking for rides all the time.

Lots of countries are influenced by the western country. I hope bwing becomes more and more mainstream and prevalent here so other cultures will see the alternative to bwing in various life circumstances.

I don't want to get into the "danger" argument but want to share that I've seen TWO babies fall out of a shopping cart. Infant car seats in the passenger seat! A toddler in a booster seat, etc. oh yeah, those were accounts of accidents from the U.S.


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## maymorales (Dec 9, 2006)

Okay. I have to say this though...if the family has a scooter, they are not living in extreme poverty, I'd assume. We certainly were not impoverished. Just my mom had to work to keep up with the Jones (or the Chens







) in a country that was quickly becoming industrialized. The scooter was an efficient method of transportation. If you were poor, you ride the bus (probably with the baby on your back too) sandwiched between strangers. And if you were rich enough to have a car, then your baby lays on a blanket in the back seat. But then, you'd have to worry about where to park that big thing and maybe you can't get through small streets, etc.

rambling now...bed time.

eta: my memories are almost 40 years old...if it no longer holds contemporary relevance, my bad!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I *loved* the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...


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## maymorales (Dec 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I *loved* the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...

hey, similar fond memories but from a different country!


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I *loved* the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...

I used to ride around town on my uncle's Harley wearing his helmet. I was about 7 yrs old. Oh, I also vividly remember being disobedient and climbing on the bike when I was told not to and getting a nasty burn on my ankle from the exhaust pipe as a result.

I also remember being small enough that I had to ride in front of him.

Good times. Truly.


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

you know we do have some places that still have different standards- school buses don't have belts or car seats actually most public transportation does not have safety belts or infant seats--


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

My kids school bus actually DOES have seatbelts in the first seat. My dd sits there. Guess because she's in kinder??


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## HybridVigor (Jan 14, 2008)

What a lot of us don't realize about our own perspectives is that we take a lot for granted. We accept quite a lot of information without doing research. Many car seats don't even pass certain codes for safety. Read consumer reports. Look at how many signs there are up in the stores about recalls. We can strap our children into car seats that might very well hurt them more than help them if it came to a crash!

We must realize that it is from a privileged point of view that we look upon these pictures of those we label 'other'. We have so much. Along with our wealth and supposed education come our assumptions.

It's totally OK to have that frisson of fear when we see something we've been taught is dangerous. But what many have brought up is that this is a different culture. They don't have the options we have, cannot afford to have the even the illusion of safety attached to hundreds of dollars worth of plastic to wrap around their children.

Do you wear shoes in your house? In Church? That would seem ridiculously appalling to most asian cultures. Different values. Different country. Different. The exercise is to take a moment and step into another view point. That is ALSO your privilege.

The child playing with the knife . . . I just think that he will know that knives are just tools, and be safe with one for the rest of his life. And he will need that knife and use it more than my child will EVER have to even open a tiny multi-tool blade.

Let's not get too caught up in pure emotional responses. That is my request. Not 'AWESOME!' and not "HORRIBLE!". Enlightening.


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## AngelaB (Nov 20, 2001)

I thought the pictures were great and I didnt even flinch. They seemed calm and happy. I would rather see dad carrying baby on his back then leaving baby crying somewhere while he and the others go off to do whatever.

The pictures of the little boy and the knife. Its probably not the first time he has played with it and what are the odds really. I wouldnt want him running with it or chasing the chickens though.

The pictures of the whole family on the scooter....it looked fun









Angela

I have read books that talk about busy east asian traffic and how westerners are so scared of the chaos but how everyone else is so alert and calm that the westerner soon learns to let go and go with the flow.

We did some crazy stuff as kids on the farm and looking back I cringe but it sure was fun and we never go hurt.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Beautiful pictures! Thanks for sharing.









I didn't find anything shocking or worrisome either... but then I've done hiking, tidepooling, swinging, etc. while wearing my babies. When you know your body and your baby and they're secure in there it feels very safe. I also feel that we are more careful when we don't have things like helmets and seatbelts. Probably the slinging dad on the motorbike will not take the same chances a guy alone wearing leather and a helmet on a motorcycle would, kwim?


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HybridVigor* 
What a lot of us don't realize about our own perspectives is that we take a lot for granted. We accept quite a lot of information without doing research. Many car seats don't even pass certain codes for safety. Read consumer reports. Look at how many signs there are up in the stores about recalls. We can strap our children into car seats that might very well hurt them more than help them if it came to a crash!

We must realize that it is from a privileged point of view that we look upon these pictures of those we label 'other'. We have so much. Along with our wealth and supposed education come our assumptions.

It's totally OK to have that frisson of fear when we see something we've been taught is dangerous. But what many have brought up is that this is a different culture. They don't have the options we have, cannot afford to have the even the illusion of safety attached to hundreds of dollars worth of plastic to wrap around their children.

Do you wear shoes in your house? In Church? That would seem ridiculously appalling to most asian cultures. Different values. Different country. Different. The exercise is to take a moment and step into another view point. That is ALSO your privilege.

The child playing with the knife . . . I just think that he will know that knives are just tools, and be safe with one for the rest of his life. And he will need that knife and use it more than my child will EVER have to even open a tiny multi-tool blade.

Let's not get too caught up in pure emotional responses. That is my request. Not 'AWESOME!' and not "HORRIBLE!". Enlightening.


















Great post!!!


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

In terms of safety, I think you also have to consider the speed. A scooter like that is only capable of about 30 mph at the best of times, never mind with 3 people on it.

Baby on a scooter at 20 - 30 mph, vs. baby in car at 80 mph? The difference in the physics is actually enormous. I'm not saying it's *safe* but it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

I would be very interested to see the statistics on traffic fatalities - unfortunately I doubt there are any for developing countries.

Aside from that, I think the photos are cute.


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

Safety is totally a cultural thing. Here (bush Alaska), entire families come to school (or go to the store, or whatever) by 4-wheeler... one parent driving, holding the smallest of the children, or with them seated between their legs, maybe another small kid behind that parent on the seat, older children or adult passengers sitting on the back or front "cargo" areas. When a 4-wheeler is the family car, that's just what you do.

If this baby weren't to be born in May, he'd be getting his first snowmobile ride at the tender age of two weeks. As it stands, he probably won't get it until six months or so (depending on the weather next fall), and will instead get a fun boat ride that may involve chopping through some ice (our airport is on the other side of the river, and we have to come into the village by air). It's just the way it is. In the winter, unless I felt like walking two miles, post-partum and carrying my new babe, in -40 degree weather, we'll hop on a snowmobile and I'll instruct the driver (probably DH) to drive like a granny. None of this makes me a bad parent. It makes me a parent in a place where there are no roads... a place where all non-walking transportation is by boat, snowmobile, or 4-wheeler. Some places, it's motorbike. Some places, it's bicycle. Certainly, it's not perfect. But what is? We do our best to minimize risk to our babies... but those risks (and what we can afford to do to minimize them) vary greatly based on location.


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## nigellas (Jun 18, 2006)

Reminds me of when I was in Mexico - Saw lots of families on bikes - The best was a dad driving while the mom breastfed a baby on the back.


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

I don't think that posting the pics is condoning them, it's just an interesting account of the babywearing culture. I would never ride a motorcyclew/ a baby, but i found thepic adorable none the less.


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## calynde (Feb 11, 2005)

I love these photos.

They bring back so many memories of life in Kenya, and women tilling their fields with their babies/small children bouncing up and down on their backs. Most just tied them on with wrap-style skirts.

They also cloth diapered...with old dish towels.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

Thanks for posting those! I loved the motorbike one and reminded me of being in different countries. Though as a child in the US my sister and I took motorcycle rides with my dad (one on front one behind and dsister was probably 2-3







), I believe we wore helmuts though.
The knife one too was funny. Once I was holding my ds when he was about 1 y/o and he reached for a sharp knife and sister in law grabbed it away and was like "omg, that was so close!" Like close to what? him grabbing the knife and instantly stabbing himself in the heart? Ok, I guess I understand her concern...but they have to learn about things somehow









I think if you spend time in a country not obsessed with safety and rules you begin to understand how little we really live here. It is a wonderful thing to free yourself from worry and trust a little more in what will be will be.


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## Cello (Feb 15, 2007)

How many times do I hear that 75%+ of car seats are not installed right? And of course the more safety we have, the better we are, right? That means we can speed to 80 mph, b/c our child is 'safe' in the car seat?

I would love to know what the average speed limit is on those bikes? My husband recently went to India for work, and said that everyone was on bikes, and no one drive anywhere the speed limits that we do here. I wish we could get statistics on if our kids are safer here or where we see the 'extreme' babywearing pics. I just keep thinking of how great our system of heath is, yet we seem to have a worse maternal/infant mortality rate than man other 1st world nations. That same kind of flawed mentality can easily be applied here to baby wearing. more is NOT always better IMHO.

I just find it so frustrating when we compare apples and oranges and throw in a sprinkle of judgment to ruin the meal.

And for what it is worth, the first thing I thought of was CC parenting with the kid playing with the knife. I am not going to go get a knife and hand it to DS, but I am trying very hard to remove all these fears and doubts that I, as a naive and brainwashed parent, have imparted to him about his safety. Off my soapbox now....back to pumping....


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cello* 
I would love to know what the average speed limit is on those bikes?

Here in Okinawa the top speed limit (not including the expressway(80kph=50mph)(and I don't think I've ever seen a bike on the expressway)) is 60kph that is equivalent to 37mph and you rarely go faster than 40kph(24mph) if there is traffic(when was the last time you drove 25mph even through your neighborhood). I rarely see accidents and when I do Americans are normally involved..... here there are no car seat laws and you regularly see kids on moms lap or running around the back seat so even in developed countries were many people drive cars and can afford car seats they choose not to because they see no risk. I can't imagine trying to fit 5 people on a motorbike but can't imagine being shocked and thinking its horrible either... its truly amazing getting out and about in the world and seeing things from a different light.


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