# Punishment-free parents: need help with a biggie



## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

How do you deal with things that are "major" transgressions in your house? Like significant destruction of household goods, things that the child really knows that they aren't supposed to do? In the past two days, dd has smashed two family heirlooms (that were in a location that we didn't think she could even access, let alone get to in the few minutes that I was in the kitchen starting the dishwasher) and scribbled on our kitchen table in marker that won't come off. Peter and I saved for that table for literally years; it is one of the only nice pieces of furniture in our house. She will be 4 in a few weeks, if that's at all useful.

I am totally beside myself. I feel like I do alot of forgiving dd and excusing her challenging behavior. She's a very spirited, difficult child and I love her so much and am parenting her as gently as I possibly can. I don't disguise my feelings from her, but I don't create consequences for her undesirable behavior, either. Yet she does stuff like this, and I'm so upset I can barely speak. I try hard to keep my eye on the prize, as it is, that she grows into a healthy, happy adult, but it's not okay with me that gets to include the all day destructo-fest that goes on here lately. (These are not isolated incidents, just the two most severe; I dread what's coming tomorrow.)

While I am racking my brain trying to understand the whys and how did I cause this behavior of the whole thing, a discussion on that really isn't too helpful to me right now. I'm really needing some bolstering on the parenting theory side of things, because I'm feeling totally lost.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

No advice, but I am anxious to see the responses to this.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I know it's hard when things with meaning to you are damaged. Particularly when you thought you had put them some place safe.

Now, from the parenting point of view:

Does she have any real idea of the value of the things? Think of what you would do if it had been a couple of Goodwill vases she broke and a Salvation army table she drew on.

Plus side, since it's a nice table you'll be able to sand it down and revarnish it. Might want to wait until your youngest child's like 12 though.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I've been going through similar issues, but it's not even the kids that are doing it







For instance, we stupidly put a humidifier on our $2000 dresser. It was fine there for MONTHS, but then, of course, murphy's law kicked in and the humidifier exploded and ruined the finish







: And then there's the vase that we were given for our wedding that was knocked off a table by a cat, and the wooden korean duck statue that we were given for our wedding (has specific marriage meaning) that I was cleaning, dropped and the head broke off







: So, yeah - even though it wasn't my kids, it totally SUCKS having your nice things ruined. I've started really believing that we just weren't *meant* to have anything nice.

That said, I'll be interested to see what the responses are to this, because I have an impish son who's recently learning how to get into everything - and I'm expecting it to continue


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## wdube (Jul 19, 2005)

It sounds like your DD is very active and needs an outlet for that energy. I agree with the PP who said at her age she doesn't understand the concept of value, so I'd be proactive and put away anything valuable. Then, I'd give her a basket of things she can throw (balls, balloons), break (crayons, hard-boiled eggs), draw on, etc. I'd model for her and focus on what she can do with these things rather than what she can't. I know my kids sometimes enjoy doing specifically what I requested they not do and the more upset I get the most interested they are.

I hope this helps. I also would not hesitate to express my disappointment, not at her but the loss of the item. In our house, people always come before possessions.


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## simplehome (Jul 13, 2004)

My son is nearly the exact same age. The past month or so, he has started sneaking around testing things out that I thought he understood were not to be done. I have had to put up all of the scissors, markers, glue, and anything that I don't want ruined. He isn't trying to damage things, but has gotten to an age where he wants to be independent, and doesn't think he needs to ask questions before he starts his experiments. Our table was also drawn upon with a permanent marker, but luckily it was one we bought off of craigslist when he was young to replace our nice table.







We've just done a lot of explaining about why we don't do certain things. We've also told him that if he feels like he needs to hide while he's doing something, then it probably isn't the best choice, and that maybe he can come talk to me about it first. This has actually worked in our case, so far. He was doing stuff like hiding behind the drapes doing things that we wouldn't e terribly happy about.

I know this isn't much help, but just that we're there with you, and I don't know that there's a lot that will make sense to her in terms of a consequence. She wasn't being malicious, I'm sure, just testing things out.







s


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

You know, we just don't buy expensive furniture right now. In fact, in our new house we have a "formal" living room that is sitting empty right now because I don't want to buy old crappy furniture, but no way am I paying for nice stuff while my kids are so young. I can't think of a single vase or glass object that is on display anywhere in our house. My kids aren't in the habit of destroying things on purpose, but there are certainly enough toys and balls that accidentally go flying through the air.

I know this is extreme, and doesn't work for some people, but for us the stress just isn't worth it. Plus, there is so much we can't put away. Our new kitchen cabinets, for instance. It makes dh crazy when the kids pull a chair up to the pantry and smack it against the lower door. But all we can do is ask them over and over again to please be careful (although I did recommend putting little clear bumper guard dots on the corner of the chairs). It also really helps my kids if we clearly explain exactly why we are asking them not to do it. We show them exactly how the corner of the chair hits the edge of the cabinet and makes a dent or chips the paint. We show them other ways of getting up the shelf without damaging the cabinet.

And all non washable pens are locked away from my younger son. He has "decorated" more items in this house than I care to think about. My older son never did, but every sharpie or other non washable pen is now stored in a box way up high in my office closet buried with other things - they don't even know it is there. It pisses me off when I need a sharpie and I have to go digging through there, but not as much as sharpie all over our carpet or couch.

This may be my own personal issue, and many here may not agree with me, but I consider seeing me burst into tears over the destruction of something that was important to me to be their natural consequence. I don't do it on purpose - I'm not talking about emotional manipulation. But I also don't try to hide my feelings about something that they did deliberately. If it was accidental, I'll be sure to reassure them that I am not mad at them and I completely understand they didn't mean to do it. But hey, you break someone's stuff, they're probably going to be upset. You smack someone, they might get angry. I don't think that's such an awful lesson to learn.

The only imposed consequence around here would be having them clean up the mess they made. If it was something really terrible, I might tell them that they need to go be somewhere else right now because I am too mad to be around anyone.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

ITA with all of what oceanbaby has said. I have Sharpie on my windowsills and floor, courtesy of my 2-1/2 yo; fortunately nothing irreplaceable has been destroyed, but they do their fair share of major mess, and I chalk it up to a casualty of nonpunitive parenting because they have to learn and mature with reinforcement (like everything else) instead of acting out of fear/avoidance of punishment. Not that I'm all singsongy happy when something gets messed up - I definitely let them know when I'm upset...but I also don't 'blame' them, they're still learning. I have them help me clean when they can, etc.etc. They're not deliberately destructive, they're just enthusiastic and well, a little spazzy sometimes...and I'll be honest that in my case, it's usually me that has dropped the ball on supervision when something really crazy happens (like the Sharpie incident).

I do like the advice that simplehome gave about if it's something they feel like they need to hide that they either shouldn't do it or should come to me first...thanks for that!

Edit: On my local board, a mom was just posting about how she can't leave her 4-yo alone for even a minute, and someone said something along the lines of that not being a bad idea, to make them shadow or velcro you for a little while, and let them know that it's because they haven't been making great choices recently (not shaming, but matter of fact) and you need to have a little time to regroup and talk about things.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I don't punish. Punishment is designed to make someone feel bad, to get revenge.

Instead, thanks to what I've learned from Pam Leo, I offer the suggestion of restitution. The goal of restitution is to make things right while maintaining dignity.

I also agree with letting them see your honest reaction to it - you don't have to hide your feelings, but let them see that you are sad. Then help them make it right in a way that is appropriate for their age/maturity level.

Also like oceanbaby (great post!) we keep things locked up. It's inconvenient sometimes, but if I'm not willing to clean it up, then I keep it put away or in a locked cabinet. We also don't have expensive furniture or breakables around. It's not worth my energy/stress to worry about it.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

how would you deal with your spouse if it was he who broke the vase (say in a fit of anger or frustration)? or if he wrote on the table?

my DS smashed the front of an antique console table that was very special to me. did have any clue that is was worth so much? nope. none what so ever. my DD wrote on my mom's dishwasher with sharpie. we tried everything to get it off. does she know how bad i feel about it? nope. no clue.

your DD didn't do these things to hurt you. she simply doesn't have clue. as far as "knowing not to do it" might very well know what she did was wrong. 4 yo lack the impulse control that adult and even older children have. the more they mature, the more control they get.

i would speak to her about it. ask her why she did it. ask her to tell you how she feels about what she did. tell her how sad you feel. but make sure she knows you value her more than material things.

and i would say.. get some pads on that table! put things away you don't want broken... i mean away in storage or at someone else's house. children, esp. children who don't live in fear of their parents are going to explore and express themselves. i blame myself for my table. it should not have been in living room.

and remember, discipline yourself first... meaning move through your personal feelings about what happened before you discipline you child.... think carefully about what you would like for her to take away from what happened and work with that.

my DS destroyed something at some one else's house and the mom ended the friendship. he didn't get to play with the kids anymore. while it wasn't the outcome i would have preferred or wanted... he did learn that some people value things more than relationships and he needs to be really careful to not destroy things at other people's houses anymore.

(sorry this go long, lots of experience here!)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that she doesn't understand the value.

The answer is to find a place that is really inaccessible for heirlooms - like maybe behind a door that can be kept closed and locked in some way. And keep permanent markers out of her reach. She doesn't know a cheap table from a nice table. Or an heirloom from a toy. Kids are still very impulsive at 3 (almost 4). And they still have no sense of the value of things.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

You say your DD knows not to do this stuff, but does she really understand exactly what you don't want her to do, and why? With the heirlooms, did she know that they were irreplaceable family heirlooms that were very important to you, and did she intentionally do something she knew would smash them? She may have known you didn't want her to draw on the table, but did she know how strongly you felt about it, and why? She may have thought drawing on the table was more like, say, screaming in the house - something you find annoying and would prefer she not do, but with no lasting consequences. She probably didn't realize how expensive the table was (or even exactly what "expensive" means), or that, to an adult, the pen marks would basically ruin the table.

I doubt she's doing this stuff because you don't punish her, and I doubt punishing would help much.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I didn't have markers accesable in my house for YEARS- from the time DD1 was born until DS was about 6. It drove me bonkers when a child needed washable markers for school, and then they got brought home at the end of the year and a younger sibling got into them (or even the child him/herself in the case of kindergarteners.) It actually feels quite strange to me that I no longer need to "babyproof" the houses, that my youngest is 7 and I really don't need to worry about anybody writing on the walls or the furniture anymore!

I simply didn't trust any of them with even washable markers unsupervised and I'm not capable of supervising them every second! I'm having a hard time understanding why a 3yo had access to permenant markers in the first place.

I don't really have any advice about breakable heirlooms, as I don't have any of those in my house. My Mom's even clumsier than I am, so nobody passed anything breakable along to her, and anything she's passed to me is durable (like handmade blankets.) I guess the best thing is to have them boxed up, carefully wrapped to cushion them, until she's old enough to understand their importance.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

There isn't anything you can do about heirlooms now, and that sucks. I know how that is. When my DD was just turning 2, she found something I didn't think she could find, and broke it. Its amazing what they can do!

Somebody mentioned having to sand and refinish the table. Perhaps a natural consequence to coloring on it could be taking part in this project. Obviously at 4 she is not capable of fixing it by herself. But she can do "chores" or other things around the house to help "earn" the money for the sander and finish. She can go to the store with you to get the items needed to fit, and she can take part in the process.

I feel like this is teaching her to take responsibility for her actions. She may have done what she did for a variety of reasons, and may have been lacking the impulse control, but when you see and experience first hand the consequences your actions have, you are better able, next time, to stop and think it through.


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

I really have not studied gentle discipline much, however I thought that there were consequences used; just logical, natural consequences. I don't see how a child can learn proper behavior without any conseqeunces. I also think that some children are also too small to understand a long conversation or reasoning discussion about most things.. it tends to go over their head.

I would first of all buy only washable markers.
I would discuss that we do not draw on furniture; only paper. I say this to my children all the time. I would tell her if she wants to use markers, she will have to ask you for them, and perhaps set up a mat under the paper for her, and provide her with paper. As soon as she is finished, put them up. Explain you will do this from now on, to make sure markers are only used on paper.

For the heirlooms I would explain to her that they were very special to you, perhaps compare them to one of her special things so she understands.. a favorite doll or toy or something, and then explain we must respect people's things, because people care about their things.

I think getting her to help refinish the table is a great idea. She will see how much work goes in to fixing her mistake, and perhaps will learn not to do it again. This is a natural consequence of her actions. Someone will have to fix what she did, she may as well learn a bit of responsiblity and accountability by joining in.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
I really have not studied gentle discipline much, however I thought that there were consequences used; just logical, natural consequences. I don't see how a child can learn proper behavior without any conseqeunces. I also think that some children are also too small to understand a long conversation or reasoning discussion about most things.. it tends to go over their head.

This is all true IMO; I *think* the OP (and please correct me if I'm wrong), was asking about using GD versus a punitive solution, like, "you wrote on the table so no dessert tonight" or, "you broke my heirloom lamp so no playdates this week". Those are arbitrary, unrelated consequences to the situation.

Natural and logical consequences do have a place in GD, for sure - but for the things she described, other than making amends and making sure the opportunities are reduced, there are not many other natural or logical consequences that I can think of...which I think was the point of the post, she wanted to know what people who don't arbitrarily punish would do about things like this.


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## Mom2lilpeeps (Aug 19, 2006)

I'm in the with Oceanbaby. We didn't buy really nice stuff yet ( except our kitchen table) In fact, we sold some of the 'pre-children' stuff(furniture) that WAS really nice. It's just not worth it to me to stress over 'stuff'. All of my expensive china etc is either packed away or way, way out of reach. I know this is not an option or even acceptable for many people but it works for us.


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## robin4kids (Jan 20, 2004)

I think sometimes we take something and swing it to the extreme. This being said I really don't understand why anyone has ANY coloring on the walls. I have a daycare and 5 kids and only a couple times have my kids or the daycare written on the wall. (By the way have you used the Magic Erase yet? It is truly magical!) If someone writes on the walls or furniture. I tell them that we write only on paper and I only allow the crayons or markers to be out when i am watching. Now with this said I leave crayons, markers and paper out 24/7. I have only put them up a couple times.

I also believe that there needs to be a room or two which a child can go and not be afraid of breaking something. I also believe that not everything need to be packed away. What will happen if you visit a friend or relative. Kids need to understand that we don't touch or play with some things period. So if you have a room which has some more expensive stuff, then let it be a rule that we don't play in that room. The consequence for breaking something on purpose is you need to be within my eye site and we can't go in the room with valuables.

You have to have consequences of some kind. Life is not without them .You speed=you get a ticket. You break something in a store=you buy it, you hurt someone=you may get sued.
Just my thoughts. Good luck.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 

You have to have consequences of some kind. Life is not without them .You speed=you get a ticket. You break something in a store=you buy it, you hurt someone=you may get sued.
Just my thoughts. Good luck.

i don't agree. a parent child relationship is not about tickets, paying for things or getting sued. that's like comparing apples and oranges.

this isn't about consequences, this about the OP feeling big feelings about how her child is acting. this isn't about "correcting" a child's behavior, this is about dealing with how you feel when your child doesn't act the you want her/him to. that could easily have been her spouse or friend that broke that vase or wrote on the table. would we be talking about consequences then?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

If a little one is breaking fragile things, drawing on walls etc....

I put away the breakables, lock up the markers, and supervise better.

Getting upset won't help, and doing nothing won't prevent it from happening again. So do something about this, but do it constructively, kwim?


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Thank you all for this wonderful discussion. I'm not actually considering using any kind of punishment or consequence. That just isn't a practice that we use in our household. I think I'm just more looking for where things are wrong, I guess. I think that my expectations of dd are too high and that's where we got off track. ooohhh, cryaing baby, gotta go, but thanks!!!!!!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Oceanbaby wrote:

Quote:

I consider seeing me burst into tears over the destruction of something that was important to me to be their natural consequence.








I was raised with GD, and one of my strongest motivators to avoid misbehavior was the knowledge that it might hurt my parents' feelings. Be sure to show your feelings. Just avoid blaming, angry, "You did this to me!" attitude--it isn't necessary.

My child is just a few months older than yours, and I disagree that he doesn't understand about value. Sure, he doesn't quite get MONETARY value, but he understands that people value things, and even if he personally does not value a thing, he can understand that the thing is valuable to another person if their words or actions indicate it.


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## SunKessed (Feb 20, 2009)

I think that the natural consequences would be as follows:

1) I would be upset. My DD would notice and probably ask why I was upset. I do moderate my feelings - but I don't hide them from her. So I would tell her that I was upset because the table was ruined.

- I think that it is VERY valuable to teach children how their actions impact other people.

2) She would lose freedom. I would reduce what she was allowed to do without me supervising. I think that's a very natural consequence. She broke something while you were unloading the dishwasher - so now she needs to help you unload the dishwasher. (My 2yo helps us every time she's awake and the dishwasher needs to be unloaded - so it's well within the reach of a 4yo). if you go into the basement to do laundry - she comes with and helps to unload the dryer. It might take longer to do things at first - but it will be worth it.

3) I would put away ALL craft supplies that could cause damage. The markers, scissors, glue, paints, stickers... They would all be put out of her reach. We currently have an easel with paints out for our 2yo. She has free access to them as long as she only paints on the paper and when she's done painting the brushes go in the kitchen sink and the lids go back on the paint pots. We've only had to put them up once since she got them because she painted on the wall.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

2 & 3 are not "natural," they are imposed by you. you have chosen to act this way towards her... they didn't naturally flow from what happened.

natural consequences are things that would happen no matter who did the breaking or writing. the spouse, a friend, or even the OP herself.

a natural consequence would be: you can't use that vase to put flowers in anymore.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Yes, those are logical consequences, and ones that I do think fall into the GD realm for sure, but they are not natural, they are parent imposed.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
You know, we just don't buy expensive furniture right now. .... My kids aren't in the habit of destroying things on purpose, but there are certainly enough toys and balls that accidentally go flying through the air.

The only imposed consequence around here would be having them clean up the mess they made. If it was something really terrible, I might tell them that they need to go be somewhere else right now because I am too mad to be around anyone.

i agree with this entire post but edited to highlight the parts that i agree with most.









i havent had very expensive furniture in a long time. i consider my furniture nice but not something that i have spent a ton of money on. i have a dining room table right now with marker marks on it (b/c i think it bled through the paper ds2 was writing on). it sucks but you cant see it alot and it was a mistake (i could have easily made).

we have a much more expensive dining room table that we just shipped off up north to a BIL b/c he loves it (its a family heirloom) and we KNOW that our kids are too young to appreciate the care needed around it (its teak so very very soft wood). it will be missed but we will get it back when kids are around 7ish or so (maybe).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 

my DS destroyed something at some one else's house and the mom ended the friendship. he didn't get to play with the kids anymore. while it wasn't the outcome i would have preferred or wanted... he did learn that some people value things more than relationships and he needs to be really careful to not destroy things at other people's houses anymore.

wow...what could have been more valuable than a friendship? i just cant imagine.

if one of my son's destroyed something at someone else's house, i would offer to pay for whatever it was....but wow! i just cant imagine ending a friendship over a possession.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I think sometimes we take something and swing it to the extreme.

what do you mean?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
This being said I really don't understand why anyone has ANY coloring on the walls. I have a daycare and 5 kids and only a couple times have my kids or the daycare written on the wall. (By the way have you used the Magic Erase yet? It is truly magical!) If someone writes on the walls or furniture. I tell them that we write only on paper and I only allow the crayons or markers to be out when i am watching. Now with this said I leave crayons, markers and paper out 24/7. I have only put them up a couple times.

thats incredible. like, seriously incredible to me. i only have 4 boys but i have had things written on for the last 18 years. i cant imagine a group of 5 kids plus day care and only rarely a wall written on. however, you are probably right there with them most of the time, giving little chance of writing. if you aren't, i guess you just got lucky.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I also believe that not everything need to be packed away. What will happen if you visit a friend or relative. Kids need to understand that we don't touch or play with some things period. The consequence for breaking something on purpose is you need to be within my eye site and we can't go in the room with valuables.

packing things away works best for us (or shipping it away, as the case may be).

if we visit friends/family that have lots of valuables out around the young kids, then i am super diligent and right on top of them...but thats no fun for me or them, so i would venture to say that those visits would be infrequent. no one i know has a house like that though. most of the ppl i know have homes that are very kid friendly b/c most of them have young kids and dont use punitive punishments (b/c i just cant be around parents who do..its not something that i am comfortable around).

young kids (i dont even know of an age limit really) dont really understand not to touch something...that makes it more attractive for my brood. its just beyond their understanding at this age (my youngest are nb and 3 but i would hold to that rule until around 5ish probably).

i do believe in explaining it but at 4 i dont think the comprehension is there.

i also cant imagine having a room where kids cant go in their own home. my parents had something like that (it wasnt attractive to us anyway) and i don't know...i hated being in that room and thought it was a waste of space..we dont have a small home but a room like that in our home would be a waste and as it is, we use every part of our home.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
You have to have consequences of some kind. Life is not without them .You speed=you get a ticket. You break something in a store=you buy it, you hurt someone=you may get sued.
Just my thoughts. Good luck.

there are natural consequences. i believe my kids are upset when they see that i am upset at something...but i dont feel they need to be "punished" b/c of a mistake or accident. incidents in the OP are mistakes or accidents. Sometimes relationships are more important. I hit my friend's car door a few weeks ago (well, the wind blew my car door into hers). She wasn't around when I did it. I still called and told her that my door hit hers. Her response was "accidents happen, don't worry about it". I couldn't leave it like that..I am paying for her repairs to teh car (not much, but still unbudgeted... b/c i caused an accident). I attempt to model behavior to my children that I want them to replicate...not simply punish them due to accidents or mistakes.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Regarding the whole "if you speed you get a ticket" thing. This is an example that has been floating around in my head for a long time. I would really be in agreement with GD, but then I would think to myself "But the only reason I don't speed is I might get a ticket. I know it's dangerous, but that's not what stops me. It's the punishment. So, maybe this whole no punishment thing is a big mistake?"

All of a sudden, it came to me why that's not a good reason to use punishment. Because the relationship I want with my children is a different relationship than I have with the police. The police officer's job is to enforce laws, not raise healthy, secure children.


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## SunKessed (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
2 & 3 are not "natural," they are imposed by you. you have chosen to act this way towards her... they didn't naturally flow from what happened.

natural consequences are things that would happen no matter who did the breaking or writing. the spouse, a friend, or even the OP herself.

a natural consequence would be: you can't use that vase to put flowers in anymore.

No - they are natural. They are ALSO logical.

There can be overlap between those.

If you do inappropriate things with art supplies while not being supervised - then it's perfectly natural (since it's following human nature) to not be allowed to be unsupervised with the art supplies.

Watch adults and children interact. That "consequence" is VERY natural. It's one that transcends different discipline models. I've seen parents who spank do it - and I've also seen parents who wax eloquently about consensual living non coercive parenting reach up and take from their child the thing that's being used inappropriately.

In fact one time I was at my local AP group meet up. One kid was hitting his mother with a toy while she was telling the group about her recent breakthrough WRT unconditional parenting. And yet - she still (and I think she wasn't fully aware she was doing it - it was just a natural reaction) reached up and took that toy from her son to protect herself and then had a very nice interaction with him about how it hurt her and she didn't like it.

Parent imposed does not mean it's not a natural consequence. It just means that the force of nature is the parent.

Would you consider being scratched by a cat a "natural" consequence for bugging the cat? What about other kids not wanting to play with a kid who isn't nice to them? I would - but by your reasoning those are consequences "imposed" by someone/something else. And that seems like a very limited definition for the term.


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
This is all true IMO; I *think* the OP (and please correct me if I'm wrong), was asking about using GD versus a punitive solution, like, "you wrote on the table so no dessert tonight" or, "you broke my heirloom lamp so no playdates this week". Those are arbitrary, unrelated consequences to the situation.

Natural and logical consequences do have a place in GD, for sure - but for the things she described, other than making amends and making sure the opportunities are reduced, there are not many other natural or logical consequences that I can think of...which I think was the point of the post, she wanted to know what people who don't arbitrarily punish would do about things like this.

Oh, well from the original post and this-

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RootBeerFloat* 
Thank you all for this wonderful discussion. I'm not actually considering using any kind of punishment or consequence. That just isn't a practice that we use in our household. I think I'm just more looking for where things are wrong, I guess. I think that my expectations of dd are too high and that's where we got off track. ooohhh, cryaing baby, gotta go, but thanks!!!!!!

I got that she does not use consequences at all.
I just don't see how that works..
child destroys something, and we just go on about our day..
how do they learn not to do that, then?


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RootBeerFloat* 
I don't create consequences for her undesirable behavior ...

I am very interested to see what responses you receive to this (I haven't had chance to read them) but honestly, I think the comments you've already made might give you a clue as to what you need to change.

Why don't you create consequences for her undesirable behaviour? You've described her as a destructive, difficult child, and yet you admit that you are doing very little to change it. Children need - crave, in fact - boundaries from their parents. What is acceptable, what is not. You can discipline without shame (discpline does in fact mean teach, and not punish.) Although in the interests of full disclosure, I also think there are times when a quick dose of punishment is in order, too.

Bottom line is, it won't be very long before her peers start showing her certain boundaries. Such as when they don't want to have playdates with her because she broke a toy, or when they have a party and don't invite her along. (I see this with a friend's child who genuinely doesn't understand why the behaviours that are tolerated at home are causing him to be very unpopular at pre-school). Do your child a favour, and teach her what is acceptable. And if you are angered by her actions, it's quite alright to show her. (That doesn't mean being physical with her, of course, but I don't think the occasional raised voice does any harm whatsoever.)

Good luck with your daughter - I know it's not going to be easy, changing the way you interact with her, but she really needs for you to do that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
Oh, well from the original post and this-

I got that she does not use consequences at all.
I just don't see how that works..
child destroys something, and we just go on about our day..
how do they learn not to do that, then?

They get old enough to understand. DD #1 wrote on walls and furniture when she was that age. I didn't punish. She doesn't do it anymore. Why? Because she's 7 now. I don't understand the urge to punish for something that will improve regardless as kids get older.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
I got that she does not use consequences at all.
I just don't see how that works..
child destroys something, and we just go on about our day..
how do they learn not to do that, then?

Not punishing doesn't mean just going on about your day as if nothing had happened, at least not in my house. If my kid destroys something, I'm certainly going to let him know I'm unhappy, and make sure he understands how his behavior caused the damage, and what he could have done differently to prevent it. But I don't see any need to go beyond that. I wouldn't give him a timeout, or take away a privilege, or make him help me clean up.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams;reak a13263159*
that could easily have been her spouse or friend that broke that vase or wrote on the table. would we be talking about consequences then?

If my DH wrote all over the kitchen table, he'd be paying for a new one. That would be his logical consequence. I'm all for gentle discipline, but kids need to know that if they ruin things, there are consequences. Like have to stick to mommy like velcro for a while (I like that idea).

As for speeding and tickets, I am willing to take the chance of getting a ticket, so therefore I speed. That punishment isn't harsh enough for me. I weigh the risks and benefits and figure I'm willing to take the risk. Same thing can happen with kids and punishment. So, Im' not saying you need to use punishment, but she still needs to understand that no matter what thevlaue of the table was, it wasn't the right place to draw.


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## SunKessed (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Not punishing doesn't mean just going on about your day as if nothing had happened, at least not in my house. If my kid destroys something, I'm certainly going to let him know I'm unhappy, and make sure he understands how his behavior caused the damage, and what he could have done differently to prevent it. But I don't see any need to go beyond that. I wouldn't give him a timeout, or take away a privilege, or make him help me clean up.

Why not make him help clean up???????

I agree with no time-outs.

But when we make a mess - we have to clean it up. That seems really basic and fundamental to how adult society works.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
Oh, well from the original post and this-

I got that she does not use consequences at all.
I just don't see how that works..
child destroys something, and we just go on about our day..
how do they learn not to do that, then?


hmmm... we have never ever used consequences in our home. my son knows not to write on walls or tables, he knows not to drop the cat out the window or flush things down the toilet, he handles DVDs and CDs carefully, is gentle (usually) with his baby sister, and mostly always uses scissors on paper! (LOL) ... sometimes he does stuff because he is impulsive, but he knows they are wrong and that he shouldn't do them.

how do you think he learned these things?

my bro and i had lots of punishment and consequences, we were horribly behaved children who did everything and i mean everything we shouldn't have done. including some pretty antisocial stuff when we were in our teens like robbing houses, dealing drugs and other stuff. how come we didn't learn not to do those things from our parents?

and "destroy" is a value judgement. if my son dismantles a broken radio, is that destroying? how does a 4 yo know the difference between that and the VCR? how about a child who takes things apart to see how they work? is that "destroying?" is it different if a parent supervises and then helps the child put it back together? a young child doesn't understand that exploration isn't always consensual!

and who ever said we just "go about our business?" if i spend time connecting with my child and discussing why he did something and what he learned from it, it that "nothing?"

punishment free parenting, esp consensual parenting doesn't seek to "teach children a lesson," it seeks to connect, grow and learn (on both sides).

the most important things the OP will learn about this episode isn't about discipline, but about herself, her child, and their relationship.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
They get old enough to understand. DD #1 wrote on walls and furniture when she was that age. I didn't punish. She doesn't do it anymore. Why? Because she's 7 now. I don't understand the urge to punish for something that will improve regardless as kids get older.

When my dd wrote on the walls, after we admired her work, we worked together to clean it up. It wasn't a punishment, but it is a natural consequence. You make a mess, you are responsible for it. I know that a 2 year old is not capable of cleaning her room by herself, or washing all of the walls by herself, so we do it together. No big production made of it. No shaming. It is just what has to happen.

At almost 3, she doesn't write on the walls. She writes on herself, though!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunKessed* 
Why not make him help clean up???????

I agree with no time-outs.

But when we make a mess - we have to clean it up. That seems really basic and fundamental to how adult society works.

I might encourage my kid to help clean up, but I wouldn't make him do it if he didn't want to, because he would see it as a punishment, and he would resent it and get angry at me. And then instead of (hopefully) thinking about what a shame it was he broke this thing I liked so much, he'd probably end up just thinking about how mean I was and how angry he was. Even if he ended up thinking, "Wow, cleaning up is a lot of work, I'd better try not to break things anymore," that wouldn't necessarily be the result I wanted. I don't want him to avoid breaking things simply out of self-interest.

Sure, adults normally clean up messes they make. But they don't do it because someone else forces them to; they do it out of consideration for others. So if I want my kid eventually to clean up his own messes, I need to encourage him to develop consideration for others. I think punishment discourages, rather than encourages, the development of consideration.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
If my DH wrote all over the kitchen table, he'd be paying for a new one. That would be his logical consequence. I'm all for gentle discipline, but kids need to know that if they ruin things, there are consequences. Like have to stick to mommy like velcro for a while (I like that idea).

As for speeding and tickets, I am willing to take the chance of getting a ticket, so therefore I speed. That punishment isn't harsh enough for me. I weigh the risks and benefits and figure I'm willing to take the risk. Same thing can happen with kids and punishment. So, Im' not saying you need to use punishment, but she still needs to understand that no matter what thevlaue of the table was, it wasn't the right place to draw.

If dh wrote on the table, he'd be going to see a psychologist, because that's not really age appropriate behavior. And him buying a table would be the same as me buying the table since we share our money.

Your second paragraph pretty much proves that punishments don't work. You're going to do what you want to do no matter what the punishment. You'll try not to get caught, but if you do, you'll deal with it. That's not the relationship I'm trying to establish with my kids.


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## SunKessed (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 

Sure, adults normally clean up messes they make. But they don't do it because someone else forces them to; they do it out of consideration for others.

Many adults are forced to do things like pay restitution for minor crimes.

I think there's great value to a child repairing the damage they did. I really cannot imagine not having the expectation that my child always at least try to make things better.

We don't punish.

But that doesn't mean my DD is allowed to make a mess or damage something without being the one responsible for making things right.

And even at the age of 2 - she takes great delight in this. Because, you know what? I could care less if she dumps her snack on the ground as long as I'm not the one who has to pick it up. And I've seen her dump her raisins on the floor on purpose and exclaim "oh no - they are on the floor. I need to pick them up" and then put them back in her bowl. I really only draw the line at permanent damage.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dd always helped me clean it up, but she LIKED cleaning it up so it certainly wasn't a way to keep her from doing it again. She liked cleaning it up almost more than doing it in the first place.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I might encourage my kid to help clean up, but I wouldn't make him do it if he didn't want to, because he would see it as a punishment, and he would resent it and get angry at me.

Seriously, who's the parent here? I know I sound snarky, but I'm rushing out of the door and don't have the time to respond more fully. This just seems like a ridiculous way to raise your children. I won't discipline him because he will be mad with me....ooookaaaayyyyy.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
If my DH wrote all over the kitchen table, he'd be paying for a new one. That would be his logical consequence.

really? if it was a mistake and an expensive table, you wouldnt try to fix it but make him buy you a new one?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 

Your second paragraph pretty much proves that punishments don't work. You're going to do what you want to do no matter what the punishment. You'll try not to get caught, but if you do, you'll deal with it. That's not the relationship I'm trying to establish with my kids.


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## SunKessed (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My dd always helped me clean it up, but she LIKED cleaning it up so it certainly wasn't a way to keep her from doing it again. She liked cleaning it up almost more than doing it in the first place.

Then there's no problem.

If the kid cleans up what they do - then that's fine. I used to love dumping my legos out all over the floor. I HATED picking them all back up. So I stopped dumping them. My DH LOVES to organize DD's Duplo and so he will, even after she's asleep for the night, dump them out on the floor to put them back the way he likes them (we have a couple of different containers).

I'm not looking for a way to prevent my child from doing something in the first place. I'm looking for a way to make sure that I am not negatively impacted by what she chooses to do.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slylives* 
Seriously, who's the parent here? I know I sound snarky, but I'm rushing out of the door and don't have the time to respond more fully. This just seems like a ridiculous way to raise your children. I won't discipline him because he will be mad with me....ooookaaaayyyyy.

Yeah, yeah, I know how it sounds, but it's not that I'm afraid to do anything that might make my kid mad, even if it would help him in the long run. Believe me, I make him mad every day by telling him he can't have something he wants, or has to do something he doesn't want to.

The thing is, in this case, making him mad pretty much cancels out any beneficial effect making him clean up could have had. If he breaks something, I don't want the whole incident to turn into a power struggle about cleaning up. I don't want him so mad at me that he no longer cares that he broke my thing and made me sad. I'm not worried that he'll never learn he should clean up his messes. As long as he learns to think about other people and not just himself, he'll naturally learn to act considerately as he gets older.

I'm not against requiring kids to clean up their messes, as long as the kid is basically willing to go along with it. But if the kid really doesn't want to, I think it's counterproductive to turn it into a fight by forcing him. (I should add that the kid I'm envisioning here is my 3 year old. If he were 15, I probably would insist that he ought to be the one to clean up after he broke something. But if he absolutely refused in the end, I still don't think I'd try to force him or punish him for his refusal.)


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
They get old enough to understand. DD #1 wrote on walls and furniture when she was that age. I didn't punish. She doesn't do it anymore. Why? Because she's 7 now. I don't understand the urge to punish for something that will improve regardless as kids get older.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Not punishing doesn't mean just going on about your day as if nothing had happened, at least not in my house. If my kid destroys something, I'm certainly going to let him know I'm unhappy, and make sure he understands how his behavior caused the damage, and what he could have done differently to prevent it. But I don't see any need to go beyond that. I wouldn't give him a timeout, or take away a privilege, or make him help me clean up.

First of all, I'd like to say, I never once typed the word punishment at all. I heard "no consequences" ever.
As to mamazee's wait till there older... that's a few years of written on tables and broken family heirlooms, when the child could learn alot earlier than that.
And to Daffodil's comment, you explained your "consequence"; talking to them and teaching alternatives to the behavior. That would at least be some kind of parenting and dicipline.

Why does the word consequence atomatically mean "punishment"? It doesn't to me. Maybe I have the wrong definition of consequence.


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
hmmm... we have never ever used consequences in our home. my son knows not to write on walls or tables, he knows not to drop the cat out the window or flush things down the toilet, he handles DVDs and CDs carefully, is gentle (usually) with his baby sister, and mostly always uses scissors on paper! (LOL) ... sometimes he does stuff because he is impulsive, but he knows they are wrong and that he shouldn't do them.

how do you think he learned these things?

my bro and i had lots of punishment and consequences, we were horribly behaved children who did everything and i mean everything we shouldn't have done. including some pretty antisocial stuff when we were in our teens like robbing houses, dealing drugs and other stuff. how come we didn't learn not to do those things from our parents?

and "destroy" is a value judgement. if my son dismantles a broken radio, is that destroying? how does a 4 yo know the difference between that and the VCR? how about a child who takes things apart to see how they work? is that "destroying?" is it different if a parent supervises and then helps the child put it back together? a young child doesn't understand that exploration isn't always consensual!

and who ever said we just "go about our business?" if i spend time connecting with my child and discussing why he did something and what he learned from it, it that "nothing?"

punishment free parenting, esp consensual parenting doesn't seek to "teach children a lesson," it seeks to connect, grow and learn (on both sides).

the most important things the OP will learn about this episode isn't about discipline, but about herself, her child, and their relationship.

Destroys is not a value judgement. She said her daughter broke 2 things in 2 days that were precious to her. And no, a discussion is not nothing, it is a consequence.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunKessed* 
But when we make a mess - we have to clean it up. That seems really basic and fundamental to how adult society works.

obviously you haven't seen my house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







:


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
I'm all for gentle discipline, but kids need to know that if they ruin things, there are consequences. Like have to stick to mommy like velcro for a while (I like that idea).

As a foster parent, I hear this one a lot. And how exactly do you make a child do this?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slylives* 
Seriously, who's the parent here? I know I sound snarky, but I'm rushing out of the door and don't have the time to respond more fully. This just seems like a ridiculous way to raise your children. I won't discipline him because he will be mad with me....ooookaaaayyyyy.

'

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Yeah, yeah, I know how it sounds, but it's not that I'm afraid to do anything that might make my kid mad, even if it would help him in the long run. Believe me, I make him mad every day by telling him he can't have something he wants, or has to do something he doesn't want to.

The thing is, in this case, making him mad pretty much cancels out any beneficial effect making him clean up could have had. If he breaks something, I don't want the whole incident to turn into a power struggle about cleaning up. I don't want him so mad at me that he no longer cares that he broke my thing and made me sad. I'm not worried that he'll never learn he should clean up his messes. As long as he learns to think about other people and not just himself, he'll naturally learn to act considerately as he gets older.

I'm not against requiring kids to clean up their messes, as long as the kid is basically willing to go along with it. But if the kid really doesn't want to, I think it's counterproductive to turn it into a fight by forcing him. (I should add that the kid I'm envisioning here is my 3 year old. If he were 15, I probably would insist that he ought to be the one to clean up after he broke something. But if he absolutely refused in the end, I still don't think I'd try to force him or punish him for his refusal.)

I agree. Making someone feel bad doesn't make them feel (or do better.) That's why most time outs suck. People expect young children to sit and think about what they did. For the most part, young children don't have internal speech and aren't able to do this. But when they can, they aren't usually thinking about how to right a wrong. They are thinking about how mean you are...and how long do they have to sit there before they can get up...and ...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
Why does the word consequence atomatically mean "punishment"? It doesn't to me. Maybe I have the wrong definition of consequence.

A punishment is a negative consequence created in an attempt to alter behavior.

Oh - and I almost forgot - my it isn't like my dd was writing on the walls at 6 and just stopped. She stopped around the age of the OP's child. Maybe a little older? I just don't remember the specifics.


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

yes, that is true, but where did we wind up focusing on negative consequences?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
yes, that is true, but where did we wind up focusing on negative consequences?

Well a positive consequence would be a reward. I don't know what neutral consequences there are - if there's one then it wouldn't really be expected to have any effect on behavior because that's not how behaviorism works.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

No advice, but man... my oldest kid destroys things on purpose all of the time. It's getting old.


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## sunanthem (Jan 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Well a positive consequence would be a reward. I don't know what neutral consequences there are - if there's one then it wouldn't really be expected to have any effect on behavior because that's not how behaviorism works.

I think a "neutral" natural consequence would be to discuss what happened, how it makes the parent feel, alternatives for what the child could have done instead, and then asking her to help clean up her mess. HOW is that negative or positive?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
I think a "neutral" natural consequence would be to discuss what happened, how it makes the parent feel, alternatives for what the child could have done instead, and then asking her to help clean up her mess. HOW is that negative or positive?

I don't personally think of that as a consequence or punishment or anything, just family communication. But there are people who think any discussion is a punishment because there's some level of coercion or making the child feel bad potentially. The only part that, as far as my point of view goes, could potentially be a punishment would be the asking to clean up, depending on how it was handled. Like I'd just say, "Well this is going to have to be cleaned up now. Here's a rag for each of us, and here's some cleaner. Let's get to it." I don't think of that as punishment. But I could see if it were done like, "There won't be any (whatever the child wants) until after you clean this." Or "If you don't clean this up, then (something bad)." I would consider those scenarios to be punishment. So maybe you're talking about just a discussion and asking for help, and other moms are interpreting it as one of those other scenarios?

The thing is, I'd ask my dd for help, but if she didn't help I'd just do it on my own and hope that I'd be modeling how to handle a situation like that. As it turns out, my dd thinks cleaning the walls is one of the more fun activities in the world (she's weird like that) so forcing it has never even been an issue. But a lot of parents wouldn't be comfortable discussing and asking for help, but then not forcing the child to help. If you're going to force a child to help, you have to have some way to force it, and that would generally be the threat of a punishment.

I feel like I've talked in circles but hopefully I've said something that's made sense here.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Well a positive consequence would be a reward. I don't know what neutral consequences there are - if there's one then it wouldn't really be expected to have any effect on behavior because that's not how behaviorism works.

What is so negative about having a polite, non-condescending conversation about respect for other people's belongings? Because if my daughter intentionally broke something that she knew she should not touch that is just the kind of conversation we'd have, and I in no way consider that to be negative. I would consider it negative parenting to let her destroy something precious on purpose and then not give any feedback whatsoever.

Nor would I consider helping to clean up the mess a punishment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that cleaning up the mess myself could be seen as a self-punishment, and would show my child that other people will always be on hand to clean up their messes if they don't want to do it. What happens if my child then breaks something at a friends house? She would run off and let the hosting parent deal with it. Not exactly a message I want to pass on.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

I think sometimes we forget how in tune kids are. We need them to instantly "learn their lesson" and we want them to act/feel like they know they have done something wrong.

I have two young boys (4.5 & 1.5) and we live in a very small space. Sometimes I feel like I can never have nice stuff, but then I remember my mom crying when my lil bro broke an heirloom lamp and remember her advice of waiting to buy anything nice until the kids grow up. I know they are being curious and playing normal. I also know it is important that they learn how to respect other community member's feelings and belongings.

For my one year old I do not expect him to not do anything. We keep markers up high etc. When he does do something we do not like we tell him, but I am not mad (sometimes frustrated). For my 4 year old I discuss things with him. He has recently broken a few nice things and I reacted exactly how I felt. I showed my frustration by throwing my hands up in the air and making a gutteral sound of frustration. I try not to direct my anger at my child but I do allow myself to be angry. I act authentically. I might cry.

The thing I have noted is that the times when I have gotten angry at him and tried to force him to be sorry (b/c I'm by no means perfect) he was smug and rude and distant. The times where I have just allowed myself to be and shared how I was feeling authentically, he usually comes over and says sorry and hugs. Then later in the day he randomly tells me why he wouldn't do it again. It's like night and day.

To the OP- nothing "went wrong" your family is just navigating life together and this is part of it. I'm sure every mother has a story to tell along similar lines. I think it would be much more effective if you earnestly shared just how upset you are and why.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
This may be my own personal issue, and many here may not agree with me, *but I consider seeing me burst into tears over the destruction of something that was important to me to be their natural consequence.* I don't do it on purpose - I'm not talking about emotional manipulation. But I also don't try to hide my feelings about something that they did deliberately. If it was accidental, I'll be sure to reassure them that I am not mad at them and I completely understand they didn't mean to do it. But hey, you break someone's stuff, they're probably going to be upset. You smack someone, they might get angry. I don't think that's such an awful lesson to learn.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! in hindsight as i look back on my parenting the things that stand out were the times when i WASNT parenting but expressing true honest feelings. almost reacting. many, many times. fear, anger, frustration, apathy, tiredness.

i remember dd was under 2. and she ran out on the street. i had taken my eyes off of her for just a second and she took off. thankfully it was an empty street. i dont even remember what i did. screamed? or got angry? all i remember was her reaction. she was in shock. she just stared at me.

and to date at 6 she has never EVER run out on the street. i have seen her wanted to and control herself on the sidewalk but she has NEVER ever run out on the street again.

i dont punish. i dont believe in it. neither do i look at my dd as a child - even worse my child. i look upon her as a 'martian' who is trying to figure out how to live in this world. we talk, talk, talk all the time - even as a one year old. we make decisions together. i have a say in her life, the way she has a say in mine.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
This may be my own personal issue, and many here may not agree with me, but I consider seeing me burst into tears over the destruction of something that was important to me to be their natural consequence. I don't do it on purpose - I'm not talking about emotional manipulation. But I also don't try to hide my feelings about something that they did deliberately. If it was accidental, I'll be sure to reassure them that I am not mad at them and I completely understand they didn't mean to do it. But hey, you break someone's stuff, they're probably going to be upset. You smack someone, they might get angry. I don't think that's such an awful lesson to learn.

The only imposed consequence around here would be having them clean up the mess they made. If it was something really terrible, I might tell them that they need to go be somewhere else right now because I am too mad to be around anyone.











Great answer, and exactly how I would handle it. I would also tell her WHY I was upset (i.e. what makes an heirloom an heirloom & why that is important to me).

Also, DS is too young to do this, but DD has often thought, after an issue/problem, about ways that SHE can make something right. I don't prod, but I have suggested that "perhaps you could think of a way to help ___ feel better" or "I wonder what would make you feel better if ___ had happened to you".


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

my ds who is nearly 6 just smashed a sliding glass door even though I remind him constantly not to hit it.







This is severly financially constraining. We dont have the money. Well, unless we want to give our car back.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Oh man. Did y'all see my thread about our five year old who cut a huge hole in the sofa with scissors?

I feel for all of you!


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## Gentle~Mommy :) (Apr 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
my ds who is nearly 6 just smashed a sliding glass door even though I remind him constantly not to hit it.







This is severly financially constraining. We dont have the money. Well, unless we want to give our car back.

What on earth are you going to do? how do you close the door now and keep your family safe? That is horrible.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Its nice outside now so not a big deal for tonight. I dont know what we are going to do yet.

My problem with "punishment free" is that my kids act so badly and even though I see it as consequences of their enviornment, I am seen as neglectful by my dh and my parents (or aka-support system) want nothing to do with the kids if they dont say "how high" when asked to jump.

Its a situation that I dont really get how to handle because I really REALLY need help.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Its nice outside now so not a big deal for tonight. I dont know what we are going to do yet.

My problem with "punishment free" is that my kids act so badly and even though I see it as consequences of their enviornment, I am seen as neglectful by my dh and my parents (or aka-support system) want nothing to do with the kids if they dont say "how high" when asked to jump.

Its a situation that I dont really get how to handle because I really REALLY need help.


That is such a popular refrain "no one likes my kids because they don''t say 'how high' when asked to jump". I think I've heard you say that more than once before. I think this goes well beyond your kids refusing to ask "how high". Your son just destroyed a sliding glass door which had the potential to actually *kill* him in his effort to destroy it. I too would likely consider that neglectful because in clinging to this punishment free philosophy, you are not finding anything else that seems to be working to keep at least your son out of danger.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

((hugs transformed)) My mom was severly punished groing up and she one purposely smashed her hand through a window cutting her arm open. Your lack of punishment is not the cause for your 6yo acting like a 6yo.

That being said, and also in regards to the OP, I agree with the posters who said to put away the things you don't want ruined and increase supervision. Reality is we can't watch our children every second of the day, but I find the real damage is done when I have been looking the other way for too long. In the moment when I stop to evaluate my anger I realize the person I am most upset with it myself.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
((hugs transformed)) My mom was severly punished groing up and she one purposely smashed her hand through a window cutting her arm open. Your lack of punishment is not the cause for *your 6yo acting like a 6yo.*
That being said, and also in regards to the OP, I agree with the posters who said to put away the things you don't want ruined and increase supervision. Reality is we can't watch our children every second of the day, but I find the real damage is done when I have been looking the other way for too long. In the moment when I stop to evaluate my anger I realize the person I am most upset with it myself.

Shattering a sliding glass door after being told numerous times not to hit it is a "six year old acting like a six year old"?
I feel that it absolutely is not!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)




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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
Shattering a sliding glass door after being told numerous times not to hit it is a "six year old acting like a six year old"?

It is a dysregulated 6 year old who needs help regulating, not punishment.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it's not you transformed. PM me if you need.

Do you think (or know) if your son has any sensory issues? The thing with my mom happened well after the age of 6. It's a terrible situation and I understand you want to find a solution, and I am sure with support you can (and I'd love to be part of that support for you) but what you describe could happen to anyone, from those who are gentle disciplined to those who are harshly punished (such as my mom)...

I have seen grown adults do these things. Heck, there are even some posters who have been numerous time to have some compassion and can't even manage to pull that off! And they are adults who are perfectly regulated! It's not you, please try to take to heart the things people are telling you from the heart, and leave the rest.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
It is a dysregulated 6 year old who needs help regulating, not punishment.

I didn't ever say he needed punishment. I only really said that she needs to figure out something that might actually work to help her children. It may be a shift in her philosophy that is the key.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

This is a very subjective topic.

Sometimes a child in a healthy discipline situation will do an innocent childish thing that has disastrous results. In that type of situation nothing will be gained by changing discipline tactics in response to what happened. Additionally, nothing can be artificially imposed by parents after-the-fact that will be more shocking and memorable to the child than *what happened*. If the child's behavior wasn't the result of the discipline situation in the home the best response is to be supportive of the child emotionally because typically such a child will be harboring a great deal of inner stress and upset over the unexpected result of their behavior.

There is a wonderful example of this in the book Mindful Parenting. Several adolescent boys who met during family vacation at a resort, got carried away with some horseplay and 'one upmanship' behavior. They ended up destroying the exterior of the recreation room wall. The patrons were horrified. They gathered around and waited for the parents of the boys to pick them up. Two of the boys were picked up. The dads screamed at them, shamed them, and took them back to their cabins under threat of a beating/grounding from all other vacation activities. The man telling the story (one of the boys himself at the time), recalls that when his father arrives, he stares at the damage, stares at the crowd, looks at his son, then gets in his car and leaves without a word. He returns with wallboard, nails, and tools, and stays up all night in the rec room repairing the wall. The next day he did not say a single word about it, and the family proceeded to enjoy their vacation. The boy in this situation was moved in a profound way by this reaction. It was the perfect response for that particular family. The boy never did anything like that ever again, and was deeply influenced by the lessons in wisdom, compassion, and forgiveness from his father.

My point is that yes, you can have a family dynamic, such that this kind of reaction, even for *big stuff* is powerful, wise, and effective.

But this is a real and subtle difference from a situation in which a child has a pattern of destructive behavior, and there is not an effective discipline dynamic in the home. In that situation, you have layers of issues that need to be addressed. It can sometimes be the case that it doesn't matter how you response to a big act of destruction--the child has emotionally detached from their behavior in that moment. The repair work there is going to happen between the destructive acts. Reconnecting the child emotionally to their behavior, and to discipline in the home, etc. is going to be found in all the smaller moments through the day. You have to lay the groundwork of success over small conflicts, in order to stay connected during an instance that is 'a biggie'.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I am finally getting him tested for some things (not sure what yet-at the very beginning of the journey) I think maybe autism (PDD-NOS) But I dont really know. He has SOMETHING going on.

I have always "known" in my heart. But I have had untreated mental illness until recently and am just now getting the help I need. I am ready to transfer that "oxygen mask" over to my son now.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

that was so well put heartmama. I agree, some times people feel like their discipline has "failed" and so they need to do "more". Nope, you need to just keep doing what is right. Yes, sometimes new solutions need to be found, but a child doing a normal child thing does not mean you need to change your discipline tactics every 5 minutes. In fact, I would see _that_ as more of a mistake in this case.

How did he react to what happened? I think its great you didnt shame him or punish him or use love withdrawal. what happened was probably lesson enough for him. And perhaps also a sign for you that there are some underlying issues that needs addressed.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

So glad you are starting the process! We are here for you and your son!


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
This is a very subjective topic.

Sometimes a child in a healthy discipline situation will do an innocent childish thing that has disastrous results. In that type of situation nothing will be gained by changing discipline tactics in response to what happened. Additionally, nothing can be artificially imposed by parents after-the-fact that will be more shocking and memorable to the child than *what happened*. If the child's behavior wasn't the result of the discipline situation in the home the best response is to be supportive of the child emotionally because typically such a child will be harboring a great deal of inner stress and upset over the unexpected result of their behavior.

There is a wonderful example of this in the book Mindful Parenting. Several adolescent boys who met during family vacation at a resort, got carried away with some horseplay and 'one upmanship' behavior. They ended up destroying the exterior of the recreation room wall. The patrons were horrified. They gathered around and waited for the parents of the boys to pick them up. Two of the boys were picked up. The dads screamed at them, shamed them, and took them back to their cabins under threat of a beating/grounding from all other vacation activities. The man telling the story (one of the boys himself at the time), recalls that when his father arrives, he stares at the damage, stares at the crowd, looks at his son, then gets in his car and leaves without a word. He returns with wallboard, nails, and tools, and stays up all night in the rec room repairing the wall. The next day he did not say a single word about it, and the family proceeded to enjoy their vacation. The boy in this situation was moved in a profound way by this reaction. It was the perfect response for that particular family. The boy never did anything like that ever again, and was deeply influenced by the lessons in wisdom, compassion, and forgiveness from his father.

My point is that yes, you can have a family dynamic, such that this kind of reaction, even for *big stuff* is powerful, wise, and effective.

*But this is a real and subtle difference from a situation in which a child has a pattern of destructive behavior, and there is not an effective discipline dynamic in the home. In that situation, you have layers of issues that need to be addressed. It can sometimes be the case that it doesn't matter how you response to a big act of destruction--the child has emotionally detached from their behavior in that moment. The repair work there is going to happen between the destructive acts. Reconnecting the child emotionally to their behavior, and to discipline in the home, etc. is going to be found in all the smaller moments through the day. You have to lay the groundwork of success over small conflicts, in order to stay connected during an instance that is 'a biggie'*.


That was really what I was asking her to consider. There are potentially many underlying issues that likely need to be addressed before anything changes. It is unfair to a child who cannot regulate his behavior to be stuck in this dynamic.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

transformed I think your dynamic of unconditional love is excellent, and your son is lucky to have you! I am glad to hear you are also taking the steps necessary to learn what additional support he needs to be more regulated. You may need to incorporate more to meet your child needs, but you don't need to shift your philosophy









ETA: I am glad you pm'd! talk more soon, I hope!


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
it's not you transformed. PM me if you need.

Do you think (or know) if your son has any sensory issues? The thing with my mom happened well after the age of 6. It's a terrible situation and I understand you want to find a solution, and I am sure with support you can (and I'd love to be part of that support for you) but what you describe could happen to anyone, from those who are gentle disciplined to those who are harshly punished (such as my mom)...

I have seen grown adults do these things. Heck, there are even some posters who have been numerous time to have some compassion and can't even manage to pull that off! And they are adults who are perfectly regulated! It's not you, please try to take to heart the things people are telling you from the heart, and leave the rest.

I don't think it's lack of compassion that made me inclined to ask if there may need to be a shift in her philosophy.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunanthem* 
I think a "neutral" natural consequence would be to discuss what happened, how it makes the parent feel, alternatives for what the child could have done instead, and then asking her to help clean up her mess. HOW is that negative or positive?

For a well attached child, making someone they love sad is definitely a negative consequence.

I'm not one who thinks all negative consequences are bad, and I definitely think that seeing that your actions hurt someone is often an appropriate consequence, but yes, most young kids will avoid hurting the people they love.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

gsd - i am not talking to you. anything you internalize is on your own terms.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't spank, I don't do time outs, I don't do conventional "punishments" but I do think children do have to occasinally be told no, you cannot do that. You cannot destroy property. You cannot hurt other people. This behavior is unacceptable.

When my children do something wrong, I tell them "that behavior is not acceptable because..." and if their behavior made me upset or sad or even angry, I let them know that too.

I have no problem with my children feeling guilty. In fact, if they have done something wrong they should feel guilty. That is what I call "having a conscience."

And when they do show remorse for what they have done, I forgive them, and we move on, and they very rarely do the same (or similar) thing again.


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## wecandoit (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 

Sure, adults normally clean up messes they make. But they don't do it because someone else forces them to; they do it out of consideration for others. So if I want my kid eventually to clean up his own messes, I need to encourage him to develop consideration for others. I think punishment discourages, rather than encourages, the development of consideration.

I agree. The point of unconditional parenting or GD or whatever particular strain of non-punitive parenting you subscribe to is to invest in the relationship. I want my son to say "please" and "thank you" and "I'm sorry" because he feels those emotions, not because I told him those are the appropriate things to say in certain circumstances. I want him to abstain from writing on the walls (we haven't actually faced that problem yet) because he knows that there are more appropriate places to write. I want him to not touch certain things that are delicate or dangerous to him, because he recognizes that it isn't a good idea. Until he's capable of doing all the deep reflecting necessary to make these sorts of choices, I try to create an environment where he'll succeed (along the lines of not expecting him to do things that aren't developmentally appropriate for a 3.5 year old--no breakables, valuable furniture, we go out to eat when he's hungry and in a good mood, we have play dates when he's exhibiting communicative and sharing behavior--when he's having a hard time, we do something just the three or two of us, like yesterday we hiked a huge mountain and he was so focused on it the entire day that the only "incident" we had was over a lost walking stick that he wanted to turn around and go back for). And I try try try to always put the relationship first, not objects or formalities. Certainly he acts out, does things I don't like, and can be rude or inappropriate, but my response is to express my feelings about his behavior while simultaneously communicating that I love him no matter what. Often I request different behaviors, but I don't ever force him to do anything (like cleaning up a mess he made). It's my goal to put our relationship and his emotional well being first. Sure, it may be hard sometimes, but as Alfie Kohn says, getting your children to be compliant is a short term result. I want long term results: happy, emotionally strong and centered child, trusting relationship, etc.

One more thing, which I can't resist saying. If you must speed (and DH does, which I can't stand), please be careful. It's not just yourself that you're endangering. My sister was seriously injured in a car crash. Cars are such dangerous things!!! Please don't ever forget that when behind a wheel. It shouldn't be just the fear of a ticket that compels us to drive safely. Life is really fragile.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I don't spank, I don't do time outs, I don't do conventional "punishments" but I do think children do have to occasinally be told no, you cannot do that. You cannot destroy property. You cannot hurt other people. This behavior is unacceptable.

When my children do something wrong, I tell them "that behavior is not acceptable because..." and if their behavior made me upset or sad or even angry, I let them know that too.

I have no problem with my children feeling guilty. In fact, if they have done something wrong they should feel guilty. That is what I call "having a conscience."

And when they do show remorse for what they have done, I forgive them, and we move on, and they very rarely do the same (or similar) thing again.

you can tell them until you are blue in the face but that doesnt make them observe a rule.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
I don't think it's lack of compassion that made me inclined to ask if there may need to be a shift in her philosophy.

Can you elaborate on your comments? I don't feel like they are making any sense.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
really? if it was a mistake and an expensive table, you wouldnt try to fix it but make him buy you a new one?










The OP said the marker wouldn't come off and if my husband did it, yes, he'd buy a new table or a lot of table cloths to cover it up!


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