# The psychologist told me i have to let him CIO



## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

I am soooo irritated right now, and just basically need someone to reassure me that i am not a lunatic.







: My ped, sent my son to a psychologist, because he said his seperation anxiety was over the top, and severe. (i cant even go to the bathroom , he FLIPS, but he has been in and out of the hospital, and has very severe reflux, his whole life, so i personally think it is completely normal) anyway so i went....ugh this lady is crazy. First she tells me, "if you ever want any time to yourself, you are going to have to let him CIO instead of giving in and taking him with you" and "if he doesnt learn to self soothe, it is going to cause major issues in a few years" MY SON IS ONE!!!!! no, he doesnt like to be away from his momma, and i NEVER leave him alone if he freaks, and YES i pick him up and comfort him when he cries. i am not getting what the problem is. She said "they can do nothing for me if i am not open to letting him CIO" also, she said i should stop nursing him for comfort, because he needs to learn how to comfort himself. every part of my parenting was picked apart, and i dont even know why i was there!!!! because my son absolutely flips out and the one time i DID leave him (w/ his dad) he cried the whole 2 hrs i was gone....well he is still a baby and has never been away from me! what do they expect!! needless to say, i wont be going back. i just was almost in tears when i left, doubting everything i am doing....i mean, i WANT to be able to get away from him every once in awhile...but he is still a baby...wont he grow out of this in time ? or there are other ways to deal with it???








: what is wrong with these people, and they call themselves DR"S and tell who knows how many people it is healthy to let their children scream their heads off....so they learn to be secure







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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

ugh. Respectfully disagree with this woman and move on with your life. DD is one and is in the throws of separation anxiety, too...just remember...this, too, shall pass.


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## CheapPearls (Aug 7, 2007)

: Everyone has their own oppinions on parenting but seriously, he's one! If he was 4 I could understand that she thinks you shouldn't give in but he is still a baby.

You keep doing what you think is right.







He'll outgrow it on his own time.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CheapPearls* 







: Everyone has their own oppinions on parenting but seriously, he's one! If he was 4 I could understand that she thinks you shouldn't give in but he is still a baby.

You keep doing what you think is right.







He'll outgrow it on his own time.

She's nuts, you're right, CIO at age 1 particularly for a child with a medical history is just mean and evil.

Don't do it.

My ds was like that. Seriously. He was that bad. He's much better now, he's 3.5 y.o., no CIO necessary, thank you.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Good grief. That is horrible. A one year old still thinks of his mama as an extension of himself. And, he may still unsure that things still exist when he can't see them. So, basically, when you are not there, there is a pretty good chance that he experiences it as if he has lost a limb and doesn't know whether he'll get it back or not.

There are plenty of gentle methods to try before resorting to CIO. She sounds really incompetent and uncreative -- argh.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

Follow your heart and don't let them instill doubt in you. I have very attached kids and at one they all needed me very much. As they get older they become independent at their own rate, pushing doesn't help. I am so sorry you had to endure that but know you are doing the best possible thing you can for your BABY! Just look how happy he is when he is with you, why wouldn't he want to sustain that?








Wendi


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

: Your story really hits home. I went though the EXACT SAME THING! My dd has reflux also, but despite that while we were in the hospital, the gi sent in a "social worker/psychologist" that told me that dd was NOT in pain, that she was SPOILED..and told me I HAD to let her CIO.. I've been told by almost every one of her docs that she is spoiled..

FUK THEM!!!!!!!!
Find a new doc

I'm so sorry, don't doubt yourself, YOU are doing the right thing


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

I would love to see someone walk away as the ped/pyscho were instructing them to CIO. When they questioned your actions I would say "Oh I was going to let you self soothe, I mean, obviously you were just spoiled by having me pay attention to your noise. You were obviously just talking for attention."


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

My son was the same way with separation, up until about age 3 or so. It was INTENSE! But now, at 5, he goes to preschool, to playdates, asks me to leave so he can be with my partner, etc.

Ignore her and know that you are a great mama for responding so wonderfuly and gently to the intense needs of your child. I know it is very, very hard and my only advice is to try to get some breaks when you can so you can take care of yourself. And, it will get better.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Gah. My ds was pretty much like that when he was one. I didn't go to the bathroom without him. Heck, I could barely go 15 minutes without him demanding to be held/nursed, even if I was in the same room.

He's 3 now, and though he does like to be held a lot, he's just fine if I'm not in the room, or even if I leave him with dp for a few hours.

It's a phase, and it seems very very normal.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

well her first statement was true. If you ever want time to yourself you have to let him cio. If you have a high needs baby, anyway.

I chose to have no time for myself for over two years... nearly went insane (thank god for antianxiety meds)... but now I have a once hn baby/toddler who is NOW a very bright, high spririted, independant 4 yr old. it was worth it.


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## captivatedlife (Aug 16, 2006)

My only thought is - what about less informed parents? Someone's going to follow that advice because it came from a "DR". Can you write a letter or something to let them know you are dissatified with the information you received? Maybe let your insurance know?

Not everyone has MDC







:


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

wow! - that would have been REALLY hard to sit through! hugs to you!
i think most children go through a similar stage...i know both of my kids went through it with me -- and well....honestly, they are still with me 24/7.







the only thing i would say is you and your dh may want to continue to work on your son being comfortable with just his daddy. when my children were babies, my dh and i made a point to let them know they were equally safe and secure with both of us. my children may still cry initally when i leave them with my dh (but NOT the whole time as you described) and i just leave anyway. my husband will comfort them and calm them down - not me. anyway, my dh was the only one i would have considered walking away and letting my child CIO with.....just because i think it's important that my children really understand that their daddy can and will meet their needs. hugs mama. sounds like you are following the right path!!


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
I am soooo irritated right now, and just basically need someone to reassure me that i am not a lunatic.







: My ped, sent my son to a psychologist, because he said his seperation anxiety was over the top, and severe. (i cant even go to the bathroom , he FLIPS, but he has been in and out of the hospital, and has very severe reflux, his whole life, so i personally think it is completely normal) anyway so i went....ugh this lady is crazy. First she tells me, "if you ever want any time to yourself, you are going to have to let him CIO instead of giving in and taking him with you" and "if he doesnt learn to self soothe, it is going to cause major issues in a few years" MY SON IS ONE!!!!! no, he doesnt like to be away from his momma, and i NEVER leave him alone if he freaks, and YES i pick him up and comfort him when he cries. i am not getting what the problem is. She said "they can do nothing for me if i am not open to letting him CIO" also, she said i should stop nursing him for comfort, because he needs to learn how to comfort himself. every part of my parenting was picked apart, and i dont even know why i was there!!!! because my son absolutely flips out and the one time i DID leave him (w/ his dad) he cried the whole 2 hrs i was gone....well he is still a baby and has never been away from me! what do they expect!! needless to say, i wont be going back. i just was almost in tears when i left, doubting everything i am doing....i mean, i WANT to be able to get away from him every once in awhile...but he is still a baby...wont he grow out of this in time ? or there are other ways to deal with it???







: what is wrong with these people, and they call themselves DR"S and tell who knows how many people it is healthy to let their children scream their heads off....so they learn to be secure







:







:







:

Find a new psychologist. Seriously.

I am in grad school for psychology and we are taught to work within the values of our clients. Not just cultural values but personal values, as well. Yes, there are some things that I would try to encourage as a psychologist but you have to find a way to work with your client and the personal values they have. If she is saying, either CIO or we can't work with you, then find another psychologist and tell her why. She needs to learn to respect her client's values.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

My first son used to have severe separation anxiety too. That's why we stopped using a sitter and I became a SAHM when he was a couple of months old. It's not a sign of anything other than a child who is more comfortable in the arms of his mom. Since then, I haven't had any issues of my children having separation anxiety because I keep them with me until they are past that stage. I realize that I'm lucky to be able to do that.

My son is 7 and hasn't had any separation anxiety since he was 3. He goes to sleepovers, he's attended preschool and school and lots of things without me and is completely securely attatched so he can be without me now. How you know that your child is ready is when they don't look at you for help when someone starts trying to pick them up or talking to involved with them.

My friends used to give me a hard time when I wouldn't leave my babies. I had one always complaining about my not leaving my child, but in the next sentence would talk about how her child would vomit repeatedly at her daycare until she got back to her. She used daycare to shop for groceries







: and to teach her child to not depend on her (her words not mine).
Listen to your instincts and I'd possibly look for a new ped. "can't help you?" I think I'd be glad they can't help you. You might look for some information about infant attachment. There are 4 main types, securely attached, attached, somewhat detatched and detatched. If I'm remembering right. It's interesting to read about the levels and what they mean, but it's been a few years since I have....or have needed to








Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

My kids are 3 and 6. They still often follow me to the bathroom. I guess I"ve warped them for life.







:

I remember ds at about 15 months pounding on the shower door while I took a shower. It's NORMAL. Some kids have severe separation anxiety, others don't. (Ds did, dd didn't.)

And yet, at age 6, ds happily goes to school, wants to know when he can spend the night at his best friend's house, and functions really well when I'm not there.

You can build up slowly to him accepting that you'll be gone - pop into another room, tell him where you're going and be back in 30 seconds. You can let him grow up more so he understands you'll come back. You can reassure him that you are there. As he gets older, you can give him short periods of time where dad takes care of him (I'd start with 15-20 minutes). But really, CIO is absurd.


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## wirewendy (Nov 19, 2005)

Oh my God! Your baby is 1 and they think it is bad to bring them with you into the bathroom? Oh My God! That is so nuts! Try to just block out everything that doc said.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Our son was never away from me until he was about 18 months, and then only for an hour or so. Nursed constantly (Gi issues/comfort) and co-slept, sling, slept being held, etc. Always on me. He now stays overnight with my sister for whole weekends, ever since he was about 4.5 y/o because he loves her. *Honoring their attachment needs fills them with love, it doesn't harm them.*









_With your thoughts you create your world_. Trust your heart, not experts about your child.

Pat


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

She is NUTS! Your baby is ONE and has been through a LOT, of course he needs his mama!!!

Follow your heart, follow your instincts. You are not crazy you are doing fine. How mean must that woman be to suggest that you leave the poor little guy to sob and scream without comfort? Kids learn to self-soothe just fine even if you run to them every time they cry. I have 3 kids, ages; 5, 10 and 13 and they are all doing great and do NOT cry over every little thing and can be away from me and all that jazz.

YOU ARE DOING FINE!!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We could do a PSA and spam the poor psychologist with research to bring her up to speed about attachment. Or you could just send her a gentle note helping her to become more informed. Here are some articles to share.

Responding to Baby's Cries and why you shouldn't let your baby "cry it out"

Science Says: Excessive Crying Could Be Harmful to Babies
Dr Sears
http://askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp

EARLY BRAIN DEVELOPMENT
What parents and caregivers need to know!
by Phyllis Porter, M.A.
http://www.educarer.com/brain.htm

Crying for comfort: distressed babies need to be held - Art of Mothering
Mothering, Jan-Feb, 2004 by Aletha Solter
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html

The Dangers of Leaving Your Baby to Cry
By Margaret Chuong-Kim, M.A.
http://drbenkim.com/articles-attachment-parenting.html

The Science of Attachment:
The Biological Roots of Love
by Lauren Lindsey Porter
http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/la...ey_porter.html

The Emotional Infant Brain
Part 1: The developing emotional subsystems of the brain process various information, including how to relate the state of the world with xpectations.
http://www.fresnofamily.com/articles/aa040100a.htm

Stress in Infancy
by Linda Folden Palmer, D.C.
http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/li...n_palmer2.html

The Science of Attachment
By Kelley Shirazi
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/5...-parenting.htm

Mistaken Approaches to Night Waking:
Excerpt from Sweet Dreams: A pediatrician's secrets for your child's good night sleep, Lowell House, 22-28 By Paul M. Fleiss, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.A.P., 2000
http://www.nospank.net/fleiss2.htm

8 INFANT SLEEP FACTS EVERY PARENT SHOULD KNOW
Dr Sears
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070200.asp

CONTROLLED CRYING:
AAIMHI POSITION PAPER
The Australian Association for Infant Mental Health:
http://www.gymealily.org/resources_paperva7.htm

Loving Responces to a baby's cries
Copyright (c) 2001 By Ingrid Bauer:
http://www.natural-wisdom.com/lovingresponse.htm

Fatherhood Basic Instinc
A dad can do so much more than defend the cave. New research shows that he too has the biological goods to nurture baby
By John Hoffman
http://www.todaysparent.com/lifeaspa...1225399&page=1

A MENTAL HEALTH EXPERT WARNS THAT POPULAR ADVICE TO IGNORE YOUR CHILD'S TEARS MAY CAUSE LIFE-LONG HARM
Amelia Hill
http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/con...ioarticle.html

Why babies should never sleep alone: A review
of the co-sleeping controversy in relation to SIDS,
bedsharing and breast feeding
James J. McKenna* and Thomas McDade
http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/arti...should%20n.pdf

Children Need Touching and Attention, Harvard Researchers Say
By Alvin Powell
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html

CIO? No! The case for not using "cry-it-out" with your children
By Gale E.Ward
http://www.storknet.com/cubbies/atta...enting/cio.htm


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## 3luvz (May 22, 2005)

I don't post often, but I wanted to let you know that I agree COMPLETELY with you and you have EVERY right to be upset!!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Seems like I timed out and my post was just lost...

I wanted to say that it seems really unusual to me that a pediatrician would refer a one year old for this kind of problem or that a psychologist would agree to take the appointment. It gets me wondering if there is more to this than we are hearing in a single post. What kinds of problems are you having? It sounds like there must be something you and the pediatrician are concerned about. What kind of help were you hoping to get? It sounds like you didn't get it so I'm wondering if there is still something going on that you could use help with.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

no, there is nothing else. he asked about how he deals w/ strangers etc at a well check visit, i said he doesnt like to be away from me ever, and so i dont leave him. he asked about how he reacts, i told him, and told him that he cried the one time i did leave him the whole time i was gone, and he said it was unusual that kids usually quiet down after the parents leave...and made the referral. nothing more to it. i wasnt looking for help from her, i only went to the appt so they could see he was "normal" and drop it.

thanks everyone, i was just really upset after that appt today. i know i am doing the right thing, and i shouldnt let it bother me. thanks for those links though, it would be nice to broaden her "techniques" and inform her a bit, i hate to know how many parents actually listen to her advice.







:


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## CrunchyParent (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm a psychologist and an AP mama. Only since having children myself have I come to appreciate the value of professionals who share and support one's own parenting choices. I wrote about this shift in perspective on my blog here. I realize that I am not the woman with whom you worked. Nevertheless, you might find it to be a source of some comfort.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

just off chance, her name isn't betty by any chance is it? I know a child psychologist on another board who sounds like this.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Just because this woman has a title doesn't mean she knows what she's talking about. Keep following your gut and listening to your ds.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

The OP and Kailey's moms stories are some of the worst thing I have ever heard! What kind of sicko psychologist would recommend that a parent not meet a child's need for love and reassurance!!!?? Sadists, both of them, go ahead and report me for name calling, it's the truth.







:


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Ye gods! At first I thought you were talking about your older child and I thought that was bad enough! but the baby!?!? Wow, sounds like that psych. is just looking for some repeat, continued business for the next 20 or 30 years. Gah.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

His separation anxiety is greater than my girls' was/is but his age is a normal age for that. I don't know what I would do, personally, because I NEED "me" time and if I couldn't leave my girls w/ their dad or grandparents I'd go nuts in a very short period of time. I started them on that pretty early, though, so they feel secure with them since they've been cared for by them since the beginning (not the VERY beginning but you know what I mean). I don't think you can just start cold turkey at age one, Perhaps part of his need to be with you WAS created by always being with you, but IMO that's neither here nor there. I think if you try to leave him now, or let him CIO, you're going to be damaging his ability to trust. You are the one person he feels safe with. I wouldn't want to be the one to show him that there's NOBODY who's safe anymore. Dump the shrink, keep the baby


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I have a high-needs dd and a lower-needs ds - and I can tell you, it's the luck of the draw, baby!

With DS I can leave him with just about anyone at 11 months and he cries a bit but settles right down.

With older DD she had bad separation anxiety until she was almost 3. But I was going crazy so I went ahead and got a sitter for 2 afternoons a week. She cried alot at first but then she got used to her and loved her. Then when we moved, I put her into a nutty-crunchy preschool/daycare when she was about 2 (they use slings there!). She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. i had to come and get her every time after a half-hour. But she eventually bonded with one particular teacher and the others caught on how to soother her and then she loved it.

Whenever I left her with DH, she cried. Until *he* learned to soothe her too.

So I would say, give your DH another chance. it may take several times but he will learn how to help your LO and they will eventually bond enough that you can get out some. And don't forget how much the baby cried right at first until you learned to read him...so give your DH the same time to figure out the different cries.

The other thing i learned from my DD is to just always tell the pediatrician "everything's fine" unless I had a specific worry! Any other answer gets them asking questions and giving you their opinion and it can just confuse things. So when they ask "how's he sleeping?" "oh fine", "how's he eating" "oh fine", "are your still breastfeeding" "it's going fine", etc LOL Just act real confident and they will leave you alone









anyway, hth from another mom whose btdt!
peace,
robyn


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Yes! Never talk to the ped about non-medical problems. "How's he sleeping?" "Great!" "How's he eating?" "Great!"

Also, you master the "smile and nod" technique. "Now that your baby is 6 months, you need to introduce cereal." Smile and nod. "Your baby is a year now, so wean him since there's no benefit to continuing nursing." Smile and nod. "Make sure your baby is sleeping in his own bed." Smile and nod.


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## wdube (Jul 19, 2005)

Big (((hugs))) to you, mama! This is so sad.









FWIW, DS1 is just starting to become more independent and social -- and he turned three last month! DS2 is about 14 months, and he's going through major separation anxiety. Being ill always makes the feelings so much more intense. In fact, I can tell when my kids are coming down with something, because days before they'll show any symptoms, they start clinging to me and wanting to nurse more. Imagine if I followed "professional" advice to push them away.

Just keep doing what you are doing. You are a strong mama for standing up for what you know is right for YOUR family.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

You know, I will be completely honest and say that until I had DD I didn't believe separation anxiety could really be so bad a mom would take her kid into the bathroom with her, and I thought those moms must be exaggerating a little. Well.......







boy did I ever have to eat my words. My DS had ZERO separation anxiety, ever. He was like the anti-AP-poster child







(not that I left him in containers all day, but he would have probably happily done that - he was happy to be on his own from the very beginning for periods of time that were always way longer than other similar aged babies and toddlers, and would happily spend time with any friends or family who wanted to hold or play with him). Then, DD made her appearance. Same parenting values and methods. She did not like being held by anyone but me or DH for the first 6 months of her life. She had severe separation anxiety from about 6-12 months (and I became that mom who pees with her child on her lap because they scream when you put them on the floor at your feet














She screamed when I went from the dining room to the kitchen to put a dish in the sink. She screamed when DH tried to occupy her while I showered. I was totally knocked for a loop. I would always talk to her and reassure her that I would be right back, but she just didn't get it. So I'd do things as quickly as possible, and bring her with me everywhere. At least she would sleep alone for a couple hours at night before I went to sleep with her, so I could have some time to myself; otherwise, I would have gone insane.

The good news is, I just left her for the first time with DH and DS to get my hair cut and colored, and she did fine, no tears (she's 14 months old). The same day, she played in her room happily while I showered (all fo 7 minutes), and played outside with big bro and grandma for an hour while I worked inside. Sooo, it's happening, finally. And I'm so glad it's on her terms. Sure, I could have forced us apart, but at what cost? Not worth it to me. So yeah, agreeing with everyone, and giving you a glimmer of hope!







:


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## zen_monster (May 4, 2006)

My son, who is now 2 1/2, also has severe seperation anxiety issues. Not until the past 6 months has he been able to leave me, and only with his dad.

The trick I used with him is to have him pack a backpack with some toys that he takes with him. Only then is he able to leave. Other than dad, tho, he will not stay with anyone else. He is also a huge comfort nurser and will only allow me to put him to sleep.

I tried CIO ONE time when he was 6 months old and will never do it again. He screamed for 45 minutes straight. It was horrible and I made the mistake of listening to other people's suggestions.

My advice is to listen to your mama instincts and forgot what the moronic psychologist told you. Also, pick up the book Raising Your Spirited Child. It was very helpful to me in gaining a better understanding of my son. One thing the author noted is that there are some children who WILL NOT eventually self soothe with CIO and that it can traumatize them, as can extended absences.

Hold your child close and listen to the cues you are given. This is a much better roadmap than some stupid regurgitated psycho babble.

Also, I have started using several homeopathic remedies that have helped with the anxiety. NAK'ing at the moment or I'd get off my butt so read the labels.. chamomile for one and several others. You may want to reearch this as an option as well.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

Thanks for posting those links! I've got some people to share them with, for sure


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

For me the take away message would be that people need to be in charge of their own health care. If you don't believe your kid has a problem, don't agree to the referral to get advice. It doesn't sound like there is any advice that a doctor could have given other than "it's normal hang in there" which isn't really something worth paying for.


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## pixiesmommy (Apr 19, 2007)

You have a ton of great replies, but I wanted to chime in and say that I have been there too. It's frustrating and it can make you insane, but it's normal in some kids.
It sounds like most of the kids outgrow it by 3 yrs old at least... well, my DD didn't just "outgrow" it. It took some tears (not CIO, but frustration on her part) and we had some other issues too (aggression from allergies that were undiagnosed at the time) but she was 5.5 yrs old before I could shower without her crying and screaming, "I love you Mommy, but I love you.... " at the bathroom door.
She'll be 7 in a couple of weeks and right now she is downstairs by herself (never would have been out of sight of me, much less on a different floor of the house!!) and has been down there all day playing doctor on a stuffed kitten. There are no tears at school, etc.

Contrast this with my nephew who was not raised with AP and had little to no attachment issues when he was younger, but is now almost 8 and has major issues about whether his mom will come back when she leaves, etc. It is coming out LATER rather than earlier. It's worse that way, IMO.

It takes time and patience, and just like anything else... every child is going to be different. Respect that and know that nurturing a child really does make them more secure.

Hugs!
Manda


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## justice'smom (Jun 5, 2007)

Both of my ds had reflux and it is extremely cruel to allow a baby who is in pain cio. Crying makes the reflux worse and they want you to do that to your baby? It is so aggrivating that so many people think they know everything about all babies, but reflux babies are so different. Yes, most babies have seperation anxiety at that age, but not the same as a reflux baby. I mean think about it, here they have been in so much pain and you are the only one that can truely soothe them. They are probably scared to death that if you leave their side they will continue to be in pain and with noone to make them feel better. I don't know about you, but when I'm sick I don't like being left alone. My first ds had severe reflux and never really got help for it. He outgrew it at 9 months and was the same way until he was two. He is still pretty clingy, but at this point will go with my husband. You have done nothing wrong. I hope things will get better soon. Something that worked for us was I would leave ds with someone for about 5 minutes and come back if he was crying. If it was really bad crying I didn't wait that long. Also, at church I would leave him, come back and then stay in the room with him. Eventually he did start staying in his two yr old class. Of course, he has now switched to his 3 yr class and we are back to square one, but at least now he can sit quietly in service with dh. My poor baby has all kind of problems now due to the drs. not helping him and telling me he would just outgrow it. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

There is also an excellent book that goes into great detail about what occurs neurologically when a child cries uncomforted. It's The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. Margot Sunderland is Director of Education and Training for the Centre for Child Mental Health in London. She's also a child psychotherapist with 20 years' experience. Here's a link on the book: http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.u...0.html?sym=QUE
The book has research materials listed for each section. It's the best book I've read supporting a nurturing, compassionate parenting style. I got it through interlibrary loan.
One great way to get a break is to incourage your LO to be just as attached to daddy. If your LO is clingy and just wants you, you can cuddle and play all three of you together. My DD is 21 months and sometimes actually wants just daddy now, and most of the time daddy or mommy will do unless she's wanting 'milkies'. Lately my DH can't take an uninterrupted shower either.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

i am a single parent, so having his dad watch him for a break isnt really an option...but thanks


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Write a letter about WHY you will not be seeing her again. That is loony!


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

OMG.







:







:







: I cannot believe this. I cannot believe what she said to you and that she is gonna be telling so many other moms the same crap and that some of them might actually believe her and will go against their mummy insincts to let their baby CIO.







:


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
I have a high-needs dd and a lower-needs ds - and I can tell you, it's the luck of the draw, baby!

With DS I can leave him with just about anyone at 11 months and he cries a bit but settles right down.

With older DD she had bad separation anxiety until she was almost 3. But I was going crazy so I went ahead and got a sitter for 2 afternoons a week. She cried alot at first but then she got used to her and loved her. Then when we moved, I put her into a nutty-crunchy preschool/daycare when she was about 2 (they use slings there!). She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. i had to come and get her every time after a half-hour. But she eventually bonded with one particular teacher and the others caught on how to soother her and then she loved it.

Whenever I left her with DH, she cried. Until *he* learned to soothe her too.

So I would say, give your DH another chance. it may take several times but he will learn how to help your LO and they will eventually bond enough that you can get out some. And don't forget how much the baby cried right at first until you learned to read him...so give your DH the same time to figure out the different cries.

The other thing i learned from my DD is to just always tell the pediatrician "everything's fine" unless I had a specific worry! Any other answer gets them asking questions and giving you their opinion and it can just confuse things. So when they ask "how's he sleeping?" "oh fine", "how's he eating" "oh fine", "are your still breastfeeding" "it's going fine", etc LOL Just act real confident and they will leave you alone









anyway, hth from another mom whose btdt!
peace,
robyn

I don't know about the OP but I would never feel comfortable forcing my child to get used to not being with me. I can't even begin to imagine leaving them somewhere where they cry for half an hour twice a week for a month! The fact that you put "LOL" in regards to that is really, really disturbing to me. This is an attachment parenting board right? I'm glad you feel that choice was good for you but for me that would just never happen.


----------



## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I just wanted to give the mama in the OP my support.

There is everything RIGHT about a 1 year-old babe nursing for comfort. This is totally normal and right, and good and beautiful.

Sounds like a weird ped.


----------



## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

thanks for the support and encouraging words mamas, it really means a lot. ii am so grateful for the support i get on these boards.

the more i think about this, the more i want to do SOMETHING about this lady...educate her, write a letter to someone about her..i dont know exactly, but it really upsets me to know she is telling people that they need to let their children CIO in order for them to be independant...i cant imagine how many people she has already told that to, that have LISTENED to her.


----------



## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Originally Posted by hippymomma69
I have a high-needs dd and a lower-needs ds - and I can tell you, it's the luck of the draw, baby!

With DS I can leave him with just about anyone at 11 months and he cries a bit but settles right down.

With older DD she had bad separation anxiety until she was almost 3. But I was going crazy so I went ahead and got a sitter for 2 afternoons a week. She cried alot at first but then she got used to her and loved her. Then when we moved, I put her into a nutty-crunchy preschool/daycare when she was about 2 (they use slings there!). She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. i had to come and get her every time after a half-hour. But she eventually bonded with one particular teacher and the others caught on how to soother her and then she loved it.

Whenever I left her with DH, she cried. Until *he* learned to soothe her too.

So I would say, give your DH another chance. it may take several times but he will learn how to help your LO and they will eventually bond enough that you can get out some. And don't forget how much the baby cried right at first until you learned to read him...so give your DH the same time to figure out the different cries.

The other thing i learned from my DD is to just always tell the pediatrician "everything's fine" unless I had a specific worry! Any other answer gets them asking questions and giving you their opinion and it can just confuse things. So when they ask "how's he sleeping?" "oh fine", "how's he eating" "oh fine", "are your still breastfeeding" "it's going fine", etc LOL Just act real confident and they will leave you alone

anyway, hth from another mom whose btdt!
peace,
robyn

thanks for the advice, but really IMO, you are practicing CIO, and that is what i am trying to avoid.


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

There remains a strong difference of opinions in the field of psychology over attachment theory (John Bowlby's work) vs. drive theory (Freud's work). To over-simplify a bit, Bowlby focused on attachment as foundational, Freud on humans as competing bundles of drives (essentially, conflict/competition). So when you hear a psychologist talking about your child as though his needs were in competition with your own (and so what you need to do is establish your dominance to have your needs met), you can be sure she's from the camp that derives it's basic child development orientation from Freudian drive theory.

Of course, for many psychologists it's not black or white, and taking into account the client's own parenting orientation is not only helpful, it's key to helping the client.

Bowlby was trained in Freudian drive theory but had some formative experiences early in his career that really changed his outlook regarding children's attachment with their primary caregivers. One of these was participating in a study (with James Robertson) of young children who experience hospitalization and the corresponding separations from their caregiver (they didn't used to let parents stay or even visit). Their work resulted in the film "A Two Year Old Goes to the Hospital", which noted the sadness and anxiety these children experienced. It was the beginnings of his work on attachment theory.

Given your child's medical history and challenges it may be helpful to note that Bowlby's own work started with hospitalized children and the trauma of separation. Us AP-ers agree with Bowlby and those who further developed attachment theory (like Mary Ainsworth) that forming a secure attachment is one of the *most important* developmental tasks of early childhood (as important as learning to walk or talk). I'd be loathe to work with a psychologist who insisted, for example, that my baby needed to learn to walk or talk on his own! The work your baby is doing in creating a secure attachment will help orient him in the world later, and yes you will have additional challenges there because of his health issues (just as a parent whose child had recurring ear infections might have additional work helping that child to speak well).

In short, I'd point the psychologist to the work of Bowlby and Ainsworth, and then find another professional whose orientation is more compatible with your own.


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## EmsMom (Dec 13, 2001)

I received an e-mail this a.m from a list I belong to and it quoted this wonderful article from Harvard Psychiatrists on why babies should not cry it out: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

I thought of this thread immediately! I hope it helps Alexysmama and others to speak to doctors and psychologists in general. I also agree with the pp about using the Bowlby research on attachment to speak to mental health "professionals".


----------



## EmsMom (Dec 13, 2001)

I also wanted to add that I had a very high need child for my first and I followed my heart (with some help from LLL folks!) and just let her be with me as much as needed. Now, at 8-1/2 I often get comments on how independent and capable she is. Same with my son who is now 4 and still sticks close to mom and close to home. But now he is starting to venture out a bit, quite happily. I do feel that I allowed my first to be stressed by trying even for a brief time to follow the dictates of the CIO folks. I couldn't do it for very long because it broke my heart and I felt there was a REASON it was hurting me and that was because it was a wrong choice. Don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.


----------



## megadoula (Jul 3, 2007)

I just found this study, hope it helps.
What I can't figure out is why it takes science and studies to tell us
something that COMMON SENSE dictates!!! - Lasi
Harvard Researchers Say
Children Need Touching and Attention

by Alvin Powell, Contributing Writer,
Harvard Gazette

America's "let them cry" attitude toward children may lead to more fears and
tears among adults, according to two Harvard Medical School researchers.
Instead of letting infants cry, American parents should keep their babies
close, console them when they cry, and bring them to bed with
them, where they'll feel safe, according to Michael Commons and Patrice
******, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry.

The pair examined child-rearing practices here and in other cultures and say
the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds - even
separate rooms - and not responding to their cries may lead to more
incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders among American
adults.

The early stress due to separation causes changes in infant brains that
makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons
and ******.

"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently,the baby permanently," Commons said. "It cha
they're sensitive to future trauma."

Their work is unique because it takes a cross-disciplinary approach,
examining brain function, emotional learning in infants, and cultural
differences, according to Charles R. Figley, director of the Traumatology
Institute at Florida State University and editor of The Journal of
Traumatology.

"It is very unusual but extremely important to find this kind of
interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary research report," Figley said. "It
accounts for cross-cultural differences in children's emotional response and
their ability to cope with stress, including traumatic stress."

___________
"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently. It changes the nervous system so they're sensitive to
future trauma."
- Dr. Michael Commons, Dept of Psychiatry, Harvard
___________

Figley said their work illuminates a route of further study and could have
implications for everything from parents' efforts to intellectually
stimulate infants to painful practices such as circumcision. Commons has
been a lecturer and research associate at the Medical School's Department of
Psychiatry since 1987 and is a member of the Department's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law.

****** has been a research associate at Harvard Medical School's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law since 1994 and an assistant professor of psychology at
Salem State College since 1993. She received master's and doctorate degrees
in education from Harvard's Graduate School of Education.

The pair say that American child-rearing practices are influenced by fears
that children will grow up dependent. But parents are on the wrong track.
Physical contact and reassurance will make children more secure when they
finally head out on their own and make them better able to form their own
adult relationships.

"We've stressed independence so much that it's having some very negative
side effects," ****** said.

The two gained the spotlight in February when they presented their ideas at
the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting in
Philadelphia.

In a paper presented at the meeting, Commons and ****** contrasted American
child-rearing practices with those of other cultures, particularly the Gusii
tribe of Kenya. Gusii mothers sleep with their babies and respond rapidly
when the baby cries.

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it
took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and ****** said in
their paper on the subject.

The way we are brought up colors our entire society, Commons and ****** say.

Americans in general don't like to be touched and pride themselves on
independence to the point of isolation, even when undergoing a difficult or
stressful time.

Despite the conventional wisdom that babies should learn to be alone, ******
said she believes many parents "cheat," keeping the baby in the room with
them, at least initially. In addition, once the child can crawl around, she
believes many find their way into their parents' room on their own.

American parents shouldn't worry about this behavior or be afraid to baby
their babies, Commons and ****** said. Parents should feel free to sleep
with their infant children, to keep their toddlers nearby, perhaps on a
mattress in the same room, and to comfort a baby when it cries.

"There are ways to grow up and be independent without putting babies through
this trauma," Commons said. "My advice is to keep the kids secure so they
can grow up and take some risks."

Besides fears of dependence, other factors have helped form our childrearing
practices, including fears that children would interfere with sex if they
shared their parents' room and doctors' concerns that a baby would be
injured by a parent rolling on it if it shared their bed, the pair said. The
nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving
families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and ****** said, is a nation that doesn't like caring
for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical
relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children,
"Commons said. "Punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get
warm, caring, independent people."

Reprinted with permission of Dr. Commons.
_http://www.hno.http://www.hhttp://wwwhttp://www.hhttp_
(http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html)


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


thanks for the advice, but really IMO, you are practicing CIO, and that is what i am trying to avoid.
Okay I respect that. FWIW I *don't* consider it CIO since someone was with her continually, holding her and trying to soothe her. If she had been left alone I would have been appalled. But I knew that there was always someone with her to hold her and try to learn her cues. Which is exactly what happened. They learned what worked with her (with some coaching from me) and she eventually was happy to see them.

For me, it was important that she learn that other people could be counted on to take care of her and soothe her also. I'm sorry you all think that ANY crying is CIO but I really don't. In my book CIO is leaving a child alone to cry.

I guess I just come from a more Continuum Concept approach that sees an extended family/human group is needed to raise a child....

peace,
robyn


----------



## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
Okay I respect that. FWIW I *don't* consider it CIO since someone was with her continually, holding her and trying to soothe her. If she had been left alone I would have been appalled. But I knew that there was always someone with her to hold her and try to learn her cues. Which is exactly what happened. They learned what worked with her (with some coaching from me) and she eventually was happy to see them.

For me, it was important that she learn that other people could be counted on to take care of her and soothe her also. I'm sorry you all think that ANY crying is CIO but I really don't. In my book CIO is leaving a child alone to cry.

I guess I just come from a more Continuum Concept approach that sees an extended family/human group is needed to raise a child....

peace,
robyn

I agree wholeheartedly with you, hippymama!


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
Okay I respect that. FWIW I *don't* consider it CIO since someone was with her continually, holding her and trying to soothe her. If she had been left alone I would have been appalled. But I knew that there was always someone with her to hold her and try to learn her cues. Which is exactly what happened. They learned what worked with her (with some coaching from me) and she eventually was happy to see them.

For me, it was important that she learn that other people could be counted on to take care of her and soothe her also. I'm sorry you all think that ANY crying is CIO but I really don't. In my book CIO is leaving a child alone to cry.

I guess I just come from a more Continuum Concept approach that sees an extended family/human group is needed to raise a child....

peace,
robyn

Yes but you specifically left her with people she didn't know and you knew she was crying for at least 30 minutes twice a week for a month and you truly don't see anything wrong with that? Wow. Just...wow.

Oh and you shouldn't claim continuum concept as justification for your decision because CC does not say anything about forcing your child to separate from you. http://www.continuum-concept.org/cc_defined.html

Specifically - "constant physical contact with his mother (or another familiar caregiver as needed) from birth" (doesn't say the parents decide when that is finished)

"sleeping in his parents' bed, in constant physical contact, until he leaves of his own volition (often about two years)" (this to show that child changes attachment of their own volition)

"having caregivers immediately respond to his signals (squirming, crying, etc.), without judgment, displeasure, or invalidation of his needs" (she needed you and cried and you denied this need)

This is something listed as what you shouldn't do - "caregivers often ignoring, discouraging, belittling or even punishing him when he cries or otherwise signals his needs" (I'd call it ignoring when you walk out while she cries)

Those are just a few direct quotes. I am not trying to pick apart your decisions - that's your business - but don't try and claim CC as justification for a decision that IMO goes directly against AP and CC.


----------



## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
Okay I respect that. FWIW I *don't* consider it CIO since someone was with her continually, holding her and trying to soothe her. If she had been left alone I would have been appalled. But I knew that there was always someone with her to hold her and try to learn her cues. Which is exactly what happened. They learned what worked with her (with some coaching from me) and she eventually was happy to see them.

For me, it was important that she learn that other people could be counted on to take care of her and soothe her also. I'm sorry you all think that ANY crying is CIO but I really don't. In my book CIO is leaving a child alone to cry.

peace,
robyn

I agree. It bothers me when posters lump a baby being held by dad or grandma or a dear friend with putting a baby behind a closed door to cry alone. I'm one of I'm sure several people here who had a baby who cried for hours and could not be consoled. That included hours in the arms of his mother. I would rock him and hold him and speak gently to him while he cried. These were exactly the same things his dad, his grandma or a friend would do. I resent the suggestion that as I, his father or his grandma held him it was as though he'd been left in a crib to cry alone.

Attachment parenting isn't the same as mom martyrdom. There is a difference hopefully. ALL parents need to learn to take breaks and that especially applies to parents of high need babies because they are even more exhausting. It isn't doing the baby any favor for mom to never for a moment take a break and never to let the baby have the experience of settling in the arms of another loving person.


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:

I am not trying to pick apart your decisions
Which is exactly what you did so now I'm on the defensive. So here is my response....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Specifically - "constant physical contact with his mother (or another familiar caregiver as needed) from birth" (doesn't say the parents decide when that is finished)

She was in direct physical contact with someone who was going to become a regular caregiver - not some random person with whom she was "left". They may not have been with her from birth, but they were with her consistently 2-3 times a week until she was 4.

Quote:

"sleeping in his parents' bed, in constant physical contact, until he leaves of his own volition (often about two years)" (this to show that child changes attachment of their own volition)
what does this have to do with anything? DD still co-sleeps so I think you are getting at that she CHOOSES who to attach to. Only how is she supposed to do that without spending time one on one with the new caregiver? we tried having me spend time at the preschool with her but it only made things harder and more confusing for her....it was easier for her to get the bonding time she needed if I was not present.

Quote:

"having caregivers immediately respond to his signals (squirming, crying, etc.), without judgment, displeasure, or invalidation of his needs" (she needed you and cried and you denied this need)
a caregiver DID respond to her needs immediately! no one was acting as if her crying was a bother - we all understood that she needed to express her fears, etc. We were all respectful of her feelings and worked to adapt ourselves to her adjustment....

Quote:

This is something listed as what you shouldn't do - "caregivers often ignoring, discouraging, belittling or even punishing him when he cries or otherwise signals his needs" (I'd call it ignoring when you walk out while she cries)

even though she was held by ANOTHER caregiver?

Seriously, I think you have a very literalist interpretation of things that totally ignores the spirit of what she is talking about. A child needs to feel secure that the caregivers around him take him seriously and are there to comfort him. Whoever the caretaker is. No where does she say this can ONLY be done by momma.

I happen to think that I am a COMPLETELY AP momma and I hope that other mommas out there who have HN kids (or *any* kids LOL) don't feel like they are bad moms if their kids cry AT ALL when left with an alternative caregiver. Being AP is about being concerned with the quality of attachment that your child has to the caregiver - any caregiver. My DD's caregivers were chosen because they agreed with my worldview.

Look I know this is totally OT so maybe it deserves it's own thread. I was just trying to repond to the OP's statement that she couldn't even leave her LO with her DH....if she views her LO's crying when left with DH as an indication that she is injuring her attachment with her child, then fine. But I just view it very, very differently as the baby's way of communicating with a new caregiver until they come to some understanding. Both my kids cried my first few days with them and I just understood it to be their way of communicating with me.

If you took my post as flip, I'm sorry it bothered you. But a little sense of humor goes a long way in dealing with HN children, let me tell you! LOL

Anyway, that's my piece...
peace,
robyn


----------



## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Here's ammunition for you:

Harvard Researchers Say
Children Need Touching and Attention

by Alvin Powell, Contributing Writer,
Harvard Gazette

America's "let them cry" attitude toward children may lead to more fears and
tears among adults, according to two Harvard Medical School researchers.
Instead of letting infants cry, American parents should keep their babies
close, console them when they cry, and bring them to bed with
them, where they'll feel safe, according to Michael Commons and Patrice
******, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry.

The pair examined child-rearing practices here and in other cultures and say
the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds - even
separate rooms - and not responding to their cries may lead to more
incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders among American
adults.

The early stress due to separation causes changes in infant brains that
makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons
and ******.

"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently. It changes the nervous system so they're sensitive to
future trauma," Commons said.

Their work is unique because it takes a cross-disciplinary approach,
examining brain function, emotional learning in infants, and cultural
differences, according to Charles R. Figley, director of the Traumatology
Institute at Florida State University and editor of The Journal of
Traumatology.

"It is very unusual but extremely important to find this kind of
interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary research report," Figley said. "It
accounts for cross-cultural differences in children's emotional response and
their ability to cope with stress, including traumatic stress."

___________

Figley said their work illuminates a route of further study and could have
implications for everything from parents' efforts to intellectually
stimulate infants to painful practices such as circumcision. Commons has
been a lecturer and research associate at the Medical School's Department of
Psychiatry since 1987 and is a member of the Department's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law.

****** has been a research associate at Harvard Medical School's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law since 1994 and an assistant professor of psychology at
Salem State College since 1993. She received master's and doctorate degrees
in education from Harvard's Graduate School of Education.

The pair say that American child-rearing practices are influenced by fears
that children will grow up dependent. But parents are on the wrong track.
Physical contact and reassurance will make children more secure when they
finally head out on their own and make them better able to form their own
adult relationships.

"We've stressed independence so much that it's having some very negative
side effects," ****** said.

The two gained the spotlight in February when they presented their ideas at
the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting in
Philadelphia.

In a paper presented at the meeting, Commons and ****** contrasted American
child-rearing practices with those of other cultures, particularly the Gusii
tribe of Kenya. Gusii mothers sleep with their babies and respond rapidly
when the baby cries.

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it
took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and ****** said in
their paper on the subject.

The way we are brought up colors our entire society, Commons and ****** say.

Americans in general don't like to be touched and pride themselves on
independence to the point of isolation, even when undergoing a difficult or
stressful time.

Despite the conventional wisdom that babies should learn to be alone, ******
said she believes many parents "cheat," keeping the baby in the room with
them, at least initially. In addition, once the child can crawl around, she
believes many find their way into their parents' room on their own.

American parents shouldn't worry about this behavior or be afraid to baby
their babies, Commons and ****** said. Parents should feel free to sleep
with their infant children, to keep their toddlers nearby, perhaps on a
mattress in the same room, and to comfort a baby when it cries.

"There are ways to grow up and be independent without putting babies through
this trauma," Commons said. "My advice is to keep the kids secure so they
can grow up and take some risks."

Besides fears of dependence, other factors have helped form our childrearing
practices, including fears that children would interfere with sex if they
shared their parents' room and doctors' concerns that a baby would be
injured by a parent rolling on it if it shared their bed, the pair said. The
nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving
families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and ****** said, is a nation that doesn't like caring
for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical
relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children,
"Commons said. "Punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get
warm, caring, independent people."

Reprinted with permission of Dr. Commons.
_http://www.hno.http://www.hhttp://wwwhttp://www.hhttp_
(http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html)


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 

She was in direct physical contact with someone who was going to become a regular caregiver - not some random person with whom she was "left". They may not have been with her from birth, but they were with her consistently 2-3 times a week until she was 4.


That is completely my point though! It was someone who was GOING to be a constant caregiver. She didn't know the person at all when you left her crying with them. To her it was some random person with whom she was left. Yes after the fact she knew them but in that first initial time she didn't know them and probably felt very abandoned, hence the crying every time for a month. That is just not something I am willing to do to my child.


----------



## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
I would love to see someone walk away as the ped/pyscho were instructing them to CIO. When they questioned your actions I would say "Oh I was going to let you self soothe, I mean, obviously you were just spoiled by having me pay attention to your noise. You were obviously just talking for attention."


----------



## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
Originally Posted by hippymomma69
I have a high-needs dd and a lower-needs ds - and I can tell you, it's the luck of the draw, baby!

With DS I can leave him with just about anyone at 11 months and he cries a bit but settles right down.

With older DD she had bad separation anxiety until she was almost 3. But I was going crazy so I went ahead and got a sitter for 2 afternoons a week. She cried alot at first but then she got used to her and loved her. Then when we moved, I put her into a nutty-crunchy preschool/daycare when she was about 2 (they use slings there!). She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. i had to come and get her every time after a half-hour. But she eventually bonded with one particular teacher and the others caught on how to soother her and then she loved it.

Whenever I left her with DH, she cried. Until *he* learned to soothe her too.

So I would say, give your DH another chance. it may take several times but he will learn how to help your LO and they will eventually bond enough that you can get out some. And don't forget how much the baby cried right at first until you learned to read him...so give your DH the same time to figure out the different cries.

The other thing i learned from my DD is to just always tell the pediatrician "everything's fine" unless I had a specific worry! Any other answer gets them asking questions and giving you their opinion and it can just confuse things. So when they ask "how's he sleeping?" "oh fine", "how's he eating" "oh fine", "are your still breastfeeding" "it's going fine", etc LOL Just act real confident and they will leave you alone

anyway, hth from another mom whose btdt!
peace,
robyn

thanks for the advice, but really IMO, you are practicing CIO, and that is what i am trying to avoid.


Not to go too far off on a tangent, but I don't see this as CIO at all. The child is not being left alone and ignored--someone is providing comfort even if it's not mom. That is WAY different from CIO, imo. Sounds like a very typical daycare transition to me. It does take time and there are tears involved. The important thing is that the upset child is COMFORTED.


----------



## onesofar (Jun 18, 2007)

I know many have already said this, but I just had to chime in that YES, you are correct. He is a baby and needs his mama right now. Our LLL group has done an activity with a string that basically shows how short the period of time is that you will have young children when compared with the rest of your life. It may seem REALLY long right now in the midst of it, but 'this too shall pass'. In the course of your lifetime, this is just a drop in the bucket, for your DC, this is the whole of his existence. Keep up the good work! What a lucky child to have a mama who cares like you do.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

i can totally respect the fact that we all have different views on CIO , i am just stating that MY opinion is,i will not leave my baby with someone who he doesnt feel comfortable with (regardless of who that is) until he is older and can communicate a bit better. i do not see that my baby clawing at the door, whimpering "mama" over and over again, his way of communicating... of course i know i cant keep him from crying all the time. But i do feel that leaving a child with someone, who he doesnt feel secure with, and letting him cry is not the answer for us. When the time comes, i will stay with him while he is adjusting to that other person, until he feels confident enough with them that i can leave and not have to worry about him screaming for an hour after i am gone. Like i already said, I tried it once, he cried the whole time i was gone, and that is it, im not doing it again, because it made me feel like i was abandoning him, i can imagine how he percieved it at only a year old.

Yes , we all as moms need that time to ourselves every once in awhile, but i think after i had kids, i realized that it is important to just take advantage of that time when it comes (baby sleeping, playing nicely/occupied, etc) instead of planning on it. at least not until they are a little older.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

thank you for all the articles and info mamas. i am going to read through everything, and drop a letter off to her next week when i go back. even if she doesnt take it seriously, at least i will know that i tried.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

I was told by my sil that I had to let my 6mo cio in order to strengthen his back muscles. Seriously. I ignored her, as well. My DS had severe reflux to the point that, when he did cry, he vomited, as many as 6 times a day, so CIO was not an option. I changed his diet and made huge strides in his attachment to me. I came to realize that he cried because he was scared of throwing up and seeing me leave made him cry, which made him throw up. Of course, this may not be the case with you, but it might be. Also, because he went to the bathroom with me all the time, he understood how to use the potty very quickly. Hang in there.


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## EmsMom (Dec 13, 2001)

Alexysmommy -- For what it's worth, I used a neighbor as a mother's helper when my high-need dd was a babe (8 months old, maybe?). I have this distinct memory of sitting with my dd on my lap for the entire two hours I was paying the mother's helper for. I did that for two or three weeks. Luckily this young girl was wonderful and really tried to engage my dd. After 3 or 4 weeks, things got much, much better because the attachment had started to the mother's helper. It was totally worth the time I put in because I used that mothers' helper for 4 years and now she can sometimes babysit for us because she is older. My dd learned to ADORE the time with the helper. There are definitely gentle ways to desensitize a child to strangers and other issues. (don't ask me how long it took me to get my child from being terrified of a bath...)


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EmsMom* 
I have this distinct memory of sitting with my dd on my lap for the entire two hours I was paying the mother's helper for. I did that for two or three weeks.

There are definitely gentle ways to desensitize a child to strangers and other issues.

that sort of thing is exactly what i will be trying, thank you!!!!


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I don't know about the OP but I would never feel comfortable forcing my child to get used to not being with me. I can't even begin to imagine leaving them somewhere where they cry for half an hour twice a week for a month! The fact that you put "LOL" in regards to that is really, really disturbing to me. This is an attachment parenting board right? I'm glad you feel that choice was good for you but for me that would just never happen.

My older daughter didn't like to be away from me when she was little. I still left her with her dad, and with her grandparents, for short periods of time, starting around 6 months when she was reliably going a couple of hours between nursing. I don't believe AP has to mean that MOM has to do everything. To me, it means a loving adult responding to a child's needs. My daughter learned that there are other adults she can trust, her grandparents, her daddy. This is a positive thing, IMO.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 

thanks for the advice, but really IMO, you are practicing CIO, and that is what i am trying to avoid.

I think a baby crying in daddy's loving arms is VERY far from CIO.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Yes! Never talk to the ped about non-medical problems. "How's he sleeping?" "Great!" "How's he eating?" "Great!"

Also, you master the "smile and nod" technique. "Now that your baby is 6 months, you need to introduce cereal." Smile and nod. "Your baby is a year now, so wean him since there's no benefit to continuing nursing." Smile and nod. "Make sure your baby is sleeping in his own bed." Smile and nod.

A corollary to the "bean dip" technique


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
My older daughter didn't like to be away from me when she was little. I still left her with her dad, and with her grandparents, for short periods of time, starting around 6 months when she was reliably going a couple of hours between nursing. I don't believe AP has to mean that MOM has to do everything. To me, it means a loving adult responding to a child's needs. My daughter learned that there are other adults she can trust, her grandparents, her daddy. This is a positive thing, IMO.

Yes but you are talking about daddy and grandparents - that is different. The poster I was referencing left her with complete strangers.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I think a baby crying in daddy's loving arms is VERY far from CIO.

thats great, but i wasnt talking about "daddys loving arms" . This post wasnt really for advice on what you all consider CIO....


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm so glad that you are wise enough to fall for that. I cant understand where they get their info from? And just to think that they're telling everyone this. How many people do you think change what they do just because they think that doc knows best?







I hate hearing things like this.







: What about finding a bunch of great books and articles on how CIO is harmful and give them to her.







Who knows...maybe she'll change her tune?

As far as the going to the bathroom yourself thing...I used to put ds in the sling to go to the bathroom. hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
thats great, but i wasnt talking about "daddys loving arms" . This post wasnt really for advice on what you all consider CIO....

First of all, the thread went off on a tangent and i was responding to other posters.

Second of all, SURE it was about that. You said you can't leave your baby with dad because he cries the whole time. I said, he's being attended to by a loving parent so that's not CIO and for me, not unreasonable. My daughter learned that daddy was fun in his own way, and she's a total daddy's girl now. I think letting babies and dads figure out their own rhythm together is *healthy*. It's popular to want dads to be more involved, to complain when they're not, but also to never give them a chance to get close when the babies are little. Makes no sense to me.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
First of all, the thread went off on a tangent and i was responding to other posters.

Second of all, SURE it was about that. You said you can't leave your baby with dad because he cries the whole time. I said, he's being attended to by a loving parent so that's not CIO and for me, not unreasonable. My daughter learned that daddy was fun in his own way, and she's a total daddy's girl now. I think letting babies and dads figure out their own rhythm together is *healthy*. It's popular to want dads to be more involved, to complain when they're not, but also to never give them a chance to get close when the babies are little. Makes no sense to me.

that is your opinion, but it is not going to change how i feel and what I consider CIO. In MY opinion, letting baby cry with ANYONE is uneccesary, and their are other ways for baby to form an attatchment to other family members/caregivers than to just hand baby over to them, and say " oh well, you may scream your head off, but it is okay, since you are supposed to feel secure with this person eventually". and of course it is healthy to let dads and babies figure out their own rythym, but it doesnt have to involve hours of crying either.







: and NO that is not what this post was about ( i think i might have an idea, since i did start it ) it was about a professional, telling me the only way my baby will ever get over his seperation anxiety , and the only way he will become independant and secure, is by using CIO..with ANYONE. the point of the post had nothing to do with dads and babies attatchments.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

A couple of things have helped us:

1. A "good-bye" ritual. DS gets very upset if I, hubby or his grandma leave him. Also certain friends when they visit. So now we take him to the door and he waves good-bye to whoever is leaving the house. It took a while but that is really helping.

2. Have dad take over some soothing while you are right there. He'll start to bond with dad more. Slowly but he will.

3. Have a basket of toys is all bathrooms.









My little guy just had his one year WBV and our very-mainstream ped suggested that separation anxiety is bad now through I think 18 months? Just a phase. You will all get through it together.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
that is your opinion, but it is not going to change how i feel and what I consider CIO. *In MY opinion, letting baby cry with ANYONE is uneccesary,* and their are other ways for baby to form an attatchment to other family members/caregivers than to just hand baby over to them, and say " oh well, you may scream your head off, but it is okay, since you are supposed to feel secure with this person eventually".

For what it's worth, you might be wrong that ALL forms of crying (particularly in someone's loving arms) is a bad thing.

Have you read any of Aletha Solter's writings (click on Articles) on crying and stress release? She's got a really good book







called THE AWARE BABY
http://www.awareparenting.com/

She is a pyschologist, AP and published in Mothering. She is anti-CIO. My first born was HN also. She believes that HN babies have stress/trauma (from birth, mine sure did) and by preventing the crying (as a form of normal stress release ~ everyone needs to have a good cry sometimes) that is not helping the child.

I was like you in the beginning. I NEVER let my son cry (I would distract or pop the boob in his mouth), no way no how. Later I read that cortisol (stress hormones) measured in saliva were FAR LOWER when a baby/child screamed loudly IF held. If they were not held (and screamed just as loud) the cortisol levels were threw the roof. Fascinating isn't it? But that helped me "get over" my fear of crying.

But I have used one sitter from the beginning (a couple of hours one day a week.) There were tears, but he was always comforted and was never left to self-soothe.

Aside from that, yes the psychologist was WRONG and completely out-of-line with promoting CIO for your and your little ones as a way to "help" break the attachment. Pure garbage.

Check out the book Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastle Way There might be good tips/insight for you there. There is a chapter for dealing with when it happens for each age and how each child views the separation/divorce (from infancy onwards.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
There is also an excellent book that goes into great detail about what occurs neurologically when a child cries uncomforted. It's The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. Margot Sunderland is Director of Education and Training for the Centre for Child Mental Health in London. She's also a child psychotherapist with 20 years' experience. Here's a link on the book: http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.u...0.html?sym=QUE
The book has research materials listed for each section. It's the best book I've read supporting a nurturing, compassionate parenting style. I got it through interlibrary loan.









Thank you so much for that link! I can't wait to read it.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

you know, this is why i hesitate before even posting on these boards most of the time. Everyone is so quick to question everyone else parenting values/ ideas if they are not the same as their own. Do i percieve CIO differently then others? i am sure of it, but does that make it wrong? no, we all parent differently and no one is going to change that. i posted this for support, because this psychologist was doing exactly the same thing as some of you, trying to get me to change my thinking. the posters who posted nothing except their opinion about what constitues CIO, do you feel better now that you got to throw your 2 cents in? i didnt ask for advice ABOUT CIO, and i didnt need it.

And also, i am a single mom (as i have already said) and dh only has supervised visits. so it is understandable that ds is not totally comfortable just being left alone with him, the time will come when he is, but i am not going to push it, it will happen when he is ready.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
you know, this is why i hesitate before even posting on these boards most of the time.

I know... I'm sorry. I get it. It opens a can of worms and everybody get to throw their 2 cents in and things go off-topic. Happens all da' time.

You are free to ignore the stuff that is OT. But I'm didn't post to give my ".02 cents" to make myself "feel better" and make you feel worse.

I posted to share an alternative view that * I * found very helpful and illuminating on this parenting journey, and thus might help you (or not, fine) but at least ONE person of the 100+ others reading this thread.

So you, dear OP, are free to ignore all. No judgement. You are on your own parenting path and you are fine.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Tanibani, thanks for posting that. It makes a lot of sense to me. Sometimes a good cry is just what a person needs to feel better. You release the tension, pain, anxiety, and you feel better. I also don't want to teach my kids that they *shouldn't* cry. I grew up in a family where emotions were rarely shown, and it's not healthy.

OP, I don't think anyone here cares how you define CIO. You wanted input. If you just wanted people to agree with you, you should have posted that. Obviously in so diverse a forum you're going to get varying opinions. Take what you like and leave the rest, simple enough. A good number of the replies on this thread aren't even to you, since the thread went off in several other directions. Try not to take things so personally. I don't think anybody thinks you need to change if you feel you're doing the right thing, and I also think we unanimously agree that your shrink needs to go.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Tanibani sorry that really wasnt directed towards you, or really anyone who actually had some info to back up what they were talking about. a few of these posts just struck a nerve, sorry about that.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
Tanibani sorry that really wasnt directed towards you, or really anyone who actually had some info to back up what they were talking about. a few of these posts just struck a nerve, sorry about that.

See, I think the issue was that YOUR post struck a nerve in calling something CIO that clearly wasn't CIO. CIO is a VERY emotionally loaded term and I think EVERYONE on this board agrees that it's wrong. Period. So when you labelled someone else's parenting "CIO" it does strike a nerve and feels like YOU are the one saying that others aren't "AP enough". It's perfectly fine if others' methods are not right for you and your family. Great. But please don't misuse terms that you know are very emotionally loaded for people and that make it sound like someone else's parenting in "wrong" or "damaging", as using real CIO would be.

OK, WAY off topic now, but just explaining how we ended up in this unintentional debate....


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
See, I think the issue was that YOUR post struck a nerve in calling something CIO that clearly wasn't CIO.

and to me, it IS CIO, those daycare people were STRANGERS to that baby, regardless of what they would eventually be. and leaving a baby to cry a few times a week, until they "get used to them" is not acceptable to me. it has nothing to do with if it was "ap enough", so you think its not CIO, i think it is, i am entitled to my opinion, just as youve stated yours.

and since this is MY post, if someone is going to give ME advice, saying that is what they did with their baby, i am going to tell them what i think about that said advice. period.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
and to me, it IS CIO, those daycare people were STRANGERS to that baby, regardless of what they would eventually be. and leaving a baby to cry a few times a week, until they "get used to them" is not acceptable to me. it has nothing to do with if it was "ap enough", so you think its not CIO, i think it is, i am entitled to my opinion, just as youve stated yours.

and since this is MY post, if someone is going to give ME advice, saying that is what they did with their baby, i am going to tell them what i think about that said advice. period.

Um..CIO is specifically when a crying baby is not comforted , is left alone and whose cries are intentionally ignored. This baby WAS being comforted, was not alone, and his cries were not being ignored.

Again, if the situation described and advice given are not right for you and your family, great. Power to you. Decline it. Ignore it. Move on. But tossing around judgmental and erroneous labels isn't very productive. Especially when people are trying to HELP you by providing advice. If you don't like the advice and it won't work in your situation, no problem. Don't take it. But these is no need to criticize others by using hurtful labels just because they do things differently and you don't feel that their advice is right for you.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

okay i can see your point about calling it "cio" , but IMO it was still very wrong, and since the advice was in regards to the topic OF cio, that is why i made that remark. i should have reworded it.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
okay i can see your point about calling it "cio" , but IMO it was still very wrong, and since the advice was in regards to the topic OF cio, that is why i made that remark. i should have reworded it.

Fair enough if you disagree with someone's advice or way of doing things. We all do things in our own way







It's just that calling it CIO seemed a little hurtful to me.

Well, we've gotten far off topic now....


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

So Alexysmom let's take this scenario.

You have a baby with colic who cries for hours a day. You are exhausted to the point where it is frankly getting dangerous (this may be hard for people who have not had a baby with colic to understand - but those who have will probably get it). Your sister comes for a visit. It is the first time she's met the baby. Your sister is concerned that you look inches from death and suggests she'd love to hold and rock the baby for an hour while you shower, eat or nap. She's had babies and you trust her. Would you allow that? Would that be CIO in your book?


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
and to me, it IS CIO, those daycare people were STRANGERS to that baby, regardless of what they would eventually be. and leaving a baby to cry a few times a week, until they "get used to them" is not acceptable to me. it has nothing to do with if it was "ap enough", so you think its not CIO, i think it is, i am entitled to my opinion, just as youve stated yours.

and since this is MY post, if someone is going to give ME advice, saying that is what they did with their baby, i am going to tell them what i think about that said advice. period.

You're entitled to your opinion, others are entitled to be annoyed by it. Works both ways.


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## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

Ughhh...sorry your psychologist and, from the sound of it, your ped as well, is so ignorant about childrens' needs. Anecdotally, my older daughter did not spend any time away from me (other than some attempts to get her to bunk in with dh right after dd2 was born, which ended after a few hours as soon as she asked for me). When she was two (-ish, don't remember exactly) she went with dh to the grocery store for 1.5 hours happily (I cried when they left!). Dd2 is 20 months old and is not yet ready to be away from me (was considering taking a class one Saturday a month and decided not to because of this). I can see making other decisions, but this way feels right to me.

Best of luck getting help for your baby!


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
You're entitled to your opinion, others are entitled to be annoyed by it. Works both ways.

then why read it, and why post? just move along on your way then....


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I think a baby crying in daddy's loving arms is VERY far from CIO.

i'm reading through here and catching up on this thread....and i just wanted to say i really agree with this comment. i know my dh is more than capable of dealing with a crying baby, and he equally needed opportunities to soothe and comfort his children. plus, i mentally needed that so much - especially with my second child. my dh is as much a parent as i am, and for us anyway, i think my dh would be offended if i took our baby from him everytime they cried for me.

OP - i'm not saying that's at all what you do--i just wanted to reply to this comment as i agreed with it.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

you know, i dont even know why someone felt the need to post that BECAUSE I NEVER SAID HER LEAVING HER LITTLE ONE WITH THE DAD IS CIO. i was referring to THIS statement

"She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. "

i am done with this thread, thank you for all who have given me the support i was looking for







it truly is hard with a baby who has severe seperation anxiety, but if he needs his momma by his side to feel secure, i am okay with that, for as long as it takes. its too bad that shrink needs a shrink herself.








:


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Seems like I timed out and my post was just lost...

I wanted to say that it seems really unusual to me that a pediatrician would refer a one year old for this kind of problem or that a psychologist would agree to take the appointment. It gets me wondering if there is more to this than we are hearing in a single post. What kinds of problems are you having? It sounds like there must be something you and the pediatrician are concerned about. What kind of help were you hoping to get? It sounds like you didn't get it so I'm wondering if there is still something going on that you could use help with.

I've never heard of a ped doing such a thing...and if it were me, I would never have gone to the psychologist--I would simply change peds! I know it's hard though when you feel like people around you are 'doctors' and you think that they might know something that you don't. Most of the time your instincts as a mom are a million times better than the opinion of a doctor who has seen your child for three minutes. My rule of thumb with peds is this: they can give me medical advice all they want, but I don't take parenting advice from them.
If I were you--I would
1) change peds
2) ask future peds what their thoughts are on separation anxiety.
I agree with the posters who mentioned reflux babies screaming because they are in pain--my reflux, tube fed, SID baby was this way and I NEVER left her--this continued until she was four. She went to preschool this last year and it was very difficult but eventually she was fine.
I didn't read all replies so I'm sorry if my comments are repeats.


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## sdm1024 (Sep 4, 2006)

that I haven't read the entire thread (NAK)
but your son is only one. Alot of kids flip when sepearated from their parent without the expiriences that your son has had.








s:


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
and to me, it IS CIO, those daycare people were STRANGERS to that baby, regardless of what they would eventually be. and leaving a baby to cry a few times a week, until they "get used to them" is not acceptable to me. it has nothing to do with if it was "ap enough", so you think its not CIO, i think it is, i am entitled to my opinion, just as youve stated yours.

and since this is MY post, if someone is going to give ME advice, saying that is what they did with their baby, i am going to tell them what i think about that said advice. period.









:


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
Um..CIO is specifically when a crying baby is not comforted , is left alone and whose cries are intentionally ignored. This baby WAS being comforted, was not alone, and his cries were not being ignored.


That's YOUR definition of CIO. Why do you get to have the final say in what is and what is not CIO? I think CIO is any time a parent knows what their child needs and denies them it to teach them some type of lesson (ie. leaving your child crying at daycare to teach them to get used to the person). IMO denying my child the very thing that is the core of their existence - me, their mother! - is wrong. Obviously the OP is of this mindset as well. So why is your definition supposed to be the universally accepted one?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So Alexysmom let's take this scenario.

You have a baby with colic who cries for hours a day. You are exhausted to the point where it is frankly getting dangerous (this may be hard for people who have not had a baby with colic to understand - but those who have will probably get it). Your sister comes for a visit. It is the first time she's met the baby. Your sister is concerned that you look inches from death and suggests she'd love to hold and rock the baby for an hour while you shower, eat or nap. She's had babies and you trust her. Would you allow that? Would that be CIO in your book?

That is obviously a completely different situation. If you are in danger of hurting your baby them crying with someone or alone - for a short period of time - is better than you hurting them. But just wanting time alone - even if you feel totally frazzled - is not a good enough reason IMO. And before you think I must be someone who just has an easy baby I have 3 children - first baby was a preemie with health problems, second was incredibly high needs and only slept in my arms for 11 months and didn't sleep through the night until over 3 years and my youngest has health problems and still gets up 4-10 times a night at 19 months of age. Yeah, I know stress. But unless I am TRULY going to snap I am not going to leave my baby to cry with anyone or alone (and yes there have been a few times I've been at that point but I put her in her room and left for a couple of minutes to regain my cool and then went back again).


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm glad there are so many saintly moms on this board! Something to aspire to, perhaps. I'm just not that cool.

Quote:

then why read it, and why post? just move along on your way then....
I could ask you the same thing.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it
took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and ****** said in
their paper on the subject.
I read this months ago and it is one of those quotes that has always stuck in my mind. how awful that we are so far detached from reality that women intentionally restrain themselves from comforting their crying baby.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I'm glad there are so many saintly moms on this board! Something to aspire to, perhaps. I'm just not that cool.

I could ask you the same thing.

BECAUSE ITS MY POST!!!!!!! LOL wow ...just wow.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

sublimebirthgirl, it is obvious from reading your other posts, that you arnt exactly anti CIO anyway, so why are you even posting to this???

from a thread you just posted to about a mom wanting to know if she was letting her babe CIO or not.
YOU SAID
"1-3 minutes in a toddler doesn't bother me a bit. It may technically be CIO, but IMO it's not even close to the same as a baby crying for an hour. He can understand that it's naptime, and he's not scared or confused, and he doesn't scream for 15 minutes or an hour or whatever. "

who said CIO has to be for an hour? or 15 min? its okay to let your baby just cry for any length of time alone, and just ignore his needs? whether it be a min or 10? um yeah, i dont think you are the best to be giving CIO advice.







:


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

It's not YOUR thread just because you started it. It's gone off in about 40 different directions. You don't own it. It's a public forum.

I am anti-CIO. I don't believe in letting babies cry for sleep training purposes. I do believe that there are degrees of things, and that parenting isn't black and white. If it takes a TODDLER (NOT a baby) 3 minutes to settle down and go to sleep, I don't see that as the end of the world. So what? I agreed with everyone else that your shrink was nuts and there's no reason to let your baby cry.

You called it "crying it out" even if the baby's DAD is holding and loving the baby. You seem to think that no child should ever shed a tear of any kind. That's fine if that's the way you do things, though I hope your children don't grow up thinking there's something wrong with crying, like I did. It's pretty unpleasant to feel like anyone seeing you cry is the worst thing in the world. To each her own; it's your baby, you know him, I don't, *just as you don't know mine or anyone else's on this board.*

One thing I have learned through my adventures in attachment parenting is that every child is different, and it is rarely wise to make blanket statements about what is acceptable in parenting and what isn't. For example, is it better for a toddler to not take a nap and spend the day cranky and exhausted because his mother's presence stimulates him and keeps him awake, than it is for said toddler to cry for 1-3 minutes before settling down and taking a decent nap? Sleep deprivation is a serious thing. This isn't like a mom of a 3-month old "sleep training" her baby so she doesn't have to wake up 10 times a night.

All I'm saying is, we're all different. We're all attached parents or else we wouldn't be on this board. AP is driven by intuition, and knowing our babies. Though Dr. Sears has his baby B guidelines (I admit he lost credibility with me when his son started advertising cord blood banking on their site), there are no hard and fast RULES to AP. It's about knowing our babies and doing our best by them.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
You called it "crying it out" even if the baby's DAD is holding and loving the baby. You seem to think that no child should ever shed a tear of any kind. .

show me where i said either one of these things. seriously, everyone keeps going back to that dad thing, SHOW me where i said anything about that. and trust me, my kids cry, a lot, but not because i am leaving them with people they dont feel secure with, or not because i am not making every effort to meet their needs.


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## apple_dumpling (Oct 20, 2004)

I haven't read all of the replies, but I have a 2.5 year old who still 'flips' out when I go to the bathroom... so I don't really think it's all that odd or anything - it's just her. She's been that way since birth. She has extreme seperation anxiety I suppose, but we just work with it (and she comes into the bathroom with me







)

Obviously there are times when she just has to be with DH or my mom - someone I trust and she trusts, despite the fact that she wants me and only me. Yes she cries when this happens... but there are times I have to go to the doctor, or just need 5 minutes to regroup.

Don't let someone tell you that you 'have' to CIO - that's bunk. Do what is right for your kids and for you. There is going to be some crying at bedtime, that's usually par for the course with a little one at some point... but make it a loving environment, not one of fear and control like CIO does.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apple_dumpling* 
There is going to be some crying at bedtime, that's usually par for the course with a little one at some point... but make it a loving environment, not one of fear and control like CIO does.

I don't understand this comment. Do you mean that all children cry at bedtime? None of mine ever have - I nursed/rocked them to sleep until they were ready to fall asleep on their own (usually between 2-3 years of age).


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I don't understand this comment. Do you mean that all children cry at bedtime? None of mine ever have - I nursed/rocked them to sleep until they were ready to fall asleep on their own (usually between 2-3 years of age).

Both of my girls, around 9-10 months, began phases of fighting sleep hard, crying no matter how much rocking and nursing is involved and just refusing to go to sleep. My 2nd is in the phase now, my 1st well beyond it and sleeping all night in her own room. I tell myself it's an expression of their brilliance, not wanting to say goodnight to the world. Otherwise I might cry every night.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

my sweet little son is 3 1/2 and was bawling his head off tonight at bedtime. he was completely overtired and just needed sleep. his tears weren't someting for me to stress about -- i just put him in bed and rubbed his little back and helped him calm down and go night-night.

i know this is way off topic - but sometimes tears aren't terrible, yk? haven't you ever cried and felt better? i know i have


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## ggs (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
my sweet little son is 3 1/2 and was bawling his head off tonight at bedtime. he was completely overtired and just needed sleep. his tears weren't someting for me to stress about -- i just put him in bed and rubbed his little back and helped him calm down and go night-night.

i know this is way off topic - but sometimes tears aren't terrible, yk? haven't you ever cried and felt better? i know i have

















:

We are vehemently anti-CIO, but my 19 month old DD went through a phase (around 12-14 months) where she would always cry at bedtime (she still does it on occasion). Rocking and back rubbing (or a scalp massage







) usually helped her fall asleep, but she still cried through the process. I don't consider this CIO. In fact, DH and I have both noticed that her crying seems more like a release of excess energy or stress, rather than crying out of anguish or sadness.

CIO, in my book, is leaving your child to cry alone, and knowing that your child is crying in need of your comfort. The above-described scenario, and the scenario where a child is crying in the loving arms of mom, dad, or grandparent, is not, IMO, CIO.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

imo, if a little one wants his/her mama, and is crying in another caregivers arms, however loving they might be...it's cio.

alexysmom...







. i am sorry that you had to listen to this psychologist spew what she did. do you have to go back to this person, or was it a one-time appointment?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
Not to go too far off on a tangent, but I don't see this as CIO at all. The child is not being left alone and ignored--someone is providing comfort even if it's not mom. That is WAY different from CIO, imo. Sounds like a very typical daycare transition to me. It does take time and there are tears involved. The important thing is that the upset child is COMFORTED.


But what if what is upsetting the baby is the person doing the conforting, ie..a 'stranger'? I don't think all that matters is the baby is comforted. I think it matters greatly who is doing the comforting. Would you want a stranger , for example, kissing you? In a lot of cases, it is even _more_ distressing to be comforted by someone with whom the baby is not familiar and/or comfortable with.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
Um..CIO is specifically when a crying baby is not comforted , is left alone and whose cries are intentionally ignored. This baby WAS being comforted, was not alone, and his cries were not being ignored.

.

But his cries _were_ being ignored by teh person he was trying to communicate with - his mother.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
But his cries _were_ being ignored by teh person he was trying to communicate with - his mother.

What should she have done? Quit her job and moved into a box because her child was slow adjusting to a childcare situation? What would YOU have done in this case? I'm lucky to be self-employed and work around my husband's schedule, but what about a mother who has to return to work outside the home? Isn't she kind of screwed either way in your view?


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
What should she have done? Quit her job and moved into a box because her child was slow adjusting to a childcare situation? What would YOU have done in this case? I'm lucky to be self-employed and work around my husband's schedule, but what about a mother who has to return to work outside the home? Isn't she kind of screwed either way in your view?

I was wondering the same thing . . .


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Yes! Never talk to the ped about non-medical problems. "How's he sleeping?" "Great!" "How's he eating?" "Great!"

Also, you master the "smile and nod" technique. "Now that your baby is 6 months, you need to introduce cereal." Smile and nod. "Your baby is a year now, so wean him since there's no benefit to continuing nursing." Smile and nod. "Make sure your baby is sleeping in his own bed." Smile and nod.

Yup--I was told by my ped when DS was I think 4 months old it started that I should be putting him down slightly awake and let him fall asleep on his own. Or he would never do it.
Never did it--he sleeps in his own room now at 2 years 10 months and has not even napped with me for close to a year. I started putting him to bed and leaving at about a year, I stopped having to join him after a few hours at around 18 months. I stopped sleeping with him for naps when his mattress got too uncomfortable for me in pregnancy. I STILL rock him to sleep sometimes, other times he goes to sleep on his own in his bed.

I switched to a more crunchy FP when DS was a year old and the ped flipped because it was 10 days after his b-day and we were LATE *gasp* on his 12 month MMR. We delayed it, he got one this summer. Don't know if I will do a second or not. lots will depend on if/when he goes to school. And I don't hear a word on the fact that he has had no other shots since he was 6 months old, or the fact that DD has yet to have ANY. (and she got whooping cough at 5 weeks. they couldn't harangue me about the shot at the hospital, she was too young to have had it! And I fully believe she never would have gotten it except that my VACCINE IMMUNITY wore off, so *I* brought it home for everyone in the last couple weeks of my pregnancy.)

anyway back to the original subject: I would not only find a new psychologist, I would find a new PED. Seriously, what pediatrician sends a ONE YEAR OLD to a psychologist for separation anxiety?! it's a FACT OF LIFE at that age. (and another on the list of reasons I don't send my kids to daycare, I hated how they would ship them over to the 'toddler room' at walking age with little to no advance prep. they need TIME to meet and adjust to their caregivers! just because it's a few feet down the hall doesn't mean it's not a HUGE change in their eyes!)


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
But I was going crazy so I went ahead and got a sitter for 2 afternoons a week. She cried alot at first but then she got used to her and loved her. Then when we moved, I put her into a nutty-crunchy preschool/daycare when she was about 2 (they use slings there!). She went 2 mornings a week and she cried every time for a month - she was a legend - LOL. i had to come and get her every time after a half-hour.

doesnt sound like she HAD to send her kids to daycare in the first place,according to her, she sent her because she was "going crazy" and if she could come back and get them after a half hour, why even leave in the first place if her kid was screaming for her mama?


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

and if a mother has to go back to work, there are more gentle transitioning tools, then just leaving the kid there screaming, and having the mindset they will get used to it eventually.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i took hippy's post as saying her child was very high maintenance at the time and she NEEDED a break. i've never left my children in daycare...ever!, and to this day i homeschool -- but i don't JUDGE mamas that know their limits. would it have been better for her to stay with her child 24/7 and then getting so overtired and overextended that she found herself yelling at or spanking her sweetie??? LOTS of very good mamas use daycare and LOTS of good mamas let their children cry with people who they know and trust will care for their babies. geesh.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
What should she have done? Quit her job and moved into a box because her child was slow adjusting to a childcare situation? What would YOU have done in this case? I'm lucky to be self-employed and work around my husband's schedule, but what about a mother who has to return to work outside the home? Isn't she kind of screwed either way in your view?

From what I could tell from her post she was NOT working, she was just doing it to get a break and also to teach her daughter to be more independent.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
i took hippy's post as saying her child was very high maintenance at the time and she NEEDED a break. i've never left my children in daycare...ever!, and to this day i homeschool -- but i don't JUDGE mamas that know their limits. would it have been better for her to stay with her child 24/7 and then getting so overtired and overextended that she found herself yelling at or spanking her sweetie??? LOTS of very good mamas use daycare and LOTS of good mamas let their children cry with people who they know and trust will care for their babies. geesh.

my dd was 13 mos old when my ds was born, both were VERY high needs babies, with severe medical issues. i can understand what its like to know your limits, and to feel overwhelmed and stressed. i thinK ALL mothers reach that point, regardless of how high needs a baby is. that being said, yes we all need breaks, but we take them when we can, or every ONCE in awhile, we get away from our babies. i can not understand, leaving your baby for DAYS EVERY WEEK , leaving them in an environment that they are stressed and crying, just so YOU can take a break...sounds like lazy parenting to me, sorry, i am glad you are able to justify it for her, but that def isnt AP parenting to me.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
i can not understand, leaving your baby for DAYS EVERY WEEK , leaving them in an environment that they are stressed and crying, just so YOU can take a break...sounds like lazy parenting to me, sorry, i am glad you are able to justify it for her, but that def isnt AP parenting to me.


well, i agree with you that it's hard to imagine leaving your kid in daycare -- that's why i never ever have. but i also can't ever imagine sending my children to public school or vaccinating them . do you understand what i'm saying? i don't think parents are lazy for doing what they feel is best for their family as a whole. i think to call hippymama or other mamas lazy parents for using daycare is really pretty rude and offensive imo. i think it's very unfair to let your personal strong convictions be the *only right way* for everyone. follow your heart, but let others follow their's, yk?


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Wow, alexysmommy. You are one of the most judgmental people I have ever "met." You say "There are more gentle methods" when a mother has to return to work but you don't say what they are. You have to go back to work. You have to be there from 8 to 5. Baby hates daycare. What do you suggest? I'd love to hear specifics, not just "there are better ways." Let's say mom has no flexibility in her job, which is often the case.

I think "mom going crazy" is a perfectly valid reason to get childcare help. Not everyone is SuperWoman (honestly, I don't think any of us are SuperWoman). My girls are both moderate-needs; not really easy but not super-high-needs either. I still feel a little loony if I don't get some time for myself every single day. Am I lazy? Or am I just *different from you*? I can't imagine how I would deal with a very high needs child. My sanity DOES matter even if you think it doesn't. You are happy making all your needs secondary; some of us aren't. It doesn't make us bad mothers, lazy people, etc.

And FWIW, I'm arguing a principle here. I don't have my kids in childcare, but I do leave them with their dad or grandparents regularly. Doing so has enriched their lives, my husband's life, my in-laws' lives, and my life.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

What bothered me in addtion to the fact that she was leaving her child to cry was that poster ascting like it was no big deal- adding her "lol" to the end of her sentence. And then all these other posters jumping in saying, who cares?? I understand people have to make different choices. Even when necessary, it doesn't make a situation like that less traumatic for the child.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Ibtl.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Ibtl.

Gah! You beat me to it.

It's actually an interesting discussion. But, when name-calling begins....


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
What bothered me in addtion to the fact that she was leaving her child to cry was that poster ascting like it was no big deal- adding her "lol" to the end of her sentence. And then all these other posters jumping in saying, who cares?? I understand people have to make different choices. Even when necessary, it doesn't make a situation like that less traumatic for the child.

I can understand where you're coming from. My impression was not that she was laughing at her crying daughter, but that this was awhile ago, and she made a joke about it as something long past. I really doubt it was easy for her back then. Sounds to me like she was desperate for a break. It's not often that we truly have a village in this day and age. Mothering was not meant to be such a solo affair. It's sad that we have to hire our village these days, but it's the way it is.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I can understand where you're coming from. My impression was not that she was laughing at her crying daughter, but that this was awhile ago, and she made a joke about it as something long past. I really doubt it was easy for her back then. Sounds to me like she was desperate for a break. It's not often that we truly have a village in this day and age. Mothering was not meant to be such a solo affair. It's sad that we have to hire our village these days, but it's the way it is.


i think that is a BIG part of what i see as the problem, i do not feel that way at all. IMO, (and of course i am sure you will disagree, but it still is my opinion, and i am only stating it, because i think this is where a lot of the disagreement between us comes from) a child belongs with its mother for at least the first year, even longer really. i dont believe in seperating a mother and child, for any reason when the child is still an infant/ young child. i also think there is a big difference between you letting your kids with their family members, (who i am sure they were around enough to get comfortable with, before you just started leaving them there) who they need to develop some kind of bond with, and taking them to a stranger so you can get some down time. i need me time every day too, i get it either while the baby is sleeping, or i wait until the kids are playing nicely, and step outside for some fresh air, curl up on the couch and read a book while they are snuggled on the floor reading....you dont have to seperate yourself from your kids to get that down time that we all need.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

If you have a very high needs baby, separation may be necessary, though. If your baby doesn't sleep except in-arms and you can't even get a shower or 5 minutes alone, it can be really difficult.

Have you read the Continuum Concept? It really spoke to me and it may help you understand where I'm coming from, if you're interested. Really great book.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
That's YOUR definition of CIO. Why do you get to have the final say in what is and what is not CIO? I think CIO is any time a parent knows what their child needs and denies them it to teach them some type of lesson (ie. leaving your child crying at daycare to teach them to get used to the person). IMO denying my child the very thing that is the core of their existence - me, their mother! - is wrong. Obviously the OP is of this mindset as well. So why is your definition supposed to be the universally accepted one?

That is the standard definition. I did not invent it. Not all forms of crying are CIO.


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## mama2cntrykids (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
my sweet little son is 3 1/2 and was bawling his head off tonight at bedtime. he was completely overtired and just needed sleep. his tears weren't someting for me to stress about -- i just put him in bed and rubbed his little back and helped him calm down and go night-night.

i know this is way off topic - but sometimes tears aren't terrible, yk? haven't you ever cried and felt better? i know i have









I've been following this thread. I don't believe in CIO, at all. But, I do know that sometimes *I* do need a good cry at times to feel better. I'm pretty sure my kids do too.







:

Just a long winded way of saying "i agree" with you.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh for pete's sake! Ya'll are judging me based on your own assumptions of my life and what was going on....when all I was trying to do was to sympathisize with the OP on having a HN kid and knowing how hard it is to have a child with high separation anxiety.

SO if you're going to judge me, let me just lay open my life for you to REALLY judge me and tell me all the mistakes I've made...(this is kinda long, sorry)

1 - my child was "AP'd" from birth...she co-slept, was worn in a sling until I was pregnant with #2 at 26 months, she BF until 26 months, etc

2 - my child never had a sitter before the age of 1. When she was 1 I went back to work and therefore had a sitter. We transitioned in as easily as we could - I worked from home for the first few weeks and was there to "help" the sitter and be available. There still was lots of crying, etc even when I was present and there to take her right back. Eventually I went back full time but after a month we were both miserable so I quit my job.

3 - we then moved to CA when she was 2...we didn't know anyone here, I had no luck finding a private sitter, her father and I were on the "outs" and he was NO help and I had no relief....she was a dynamo who needed lots of energy from me every day....so I looked at this nice little "daycare" where they wore the kids in slings and were/are very loving etc

4 - when I first took her to the preschool, I spent the first few days with her while I was there so she could see the routine and get used to the teachers....she seemed confident so we tried having me leave and wait outside for a half hour - we did that for 2 days and she didn't settle down....so we tried again the next week, etc - she didn't cry for a half-hour every time but she did cry each time for at least a little bit - enough to make the other parents notice....the director went out of her way to help Marley learn to release her fears and reassure her I was coming back...I wasn't sure if I was pushing her too much or not, but I had a gut feeling that once she bonded with them, she would LOVE it there - which she did.

5 - as far as "complete strangers" well frankly everyone is a stranger to a little child! it's great if you have family members or friends who are there to support you from birth, but some of us don't really have that - so strangers who we "pay" are sometimes more reliable/more caring than those relatives - at least in my experience - it was my doula who supported me in the birth of my 2nd child, not my mother - it was the teacher at the preschool who came over to do an overnight with my DD when my son was born - my DD would rather spend time with her preschool teacher than many of her relatives, etc

(also want to add - downtime for me when she napped? um, what naps? downtime when she was playing? um, there IS no playing alone for an ADHD child! we're talking seriously HN and later dx as SN)

6 - people are reacting to the "LOL" part of my post - well I tend to use humor to sort of ease things that have alot of tension for me....it's easier for me to look back on that experience as her becoming a "legend - LOL" than to be all solemn and serious....but I know some folks see that as being inappropriate - all I can say is that having a SN, HN child makes me turn to "gallows" humor to cope...

7- finally - I really, really think that I handled the entire transition to prescool in a VERY AP manner - I made sure that my DD had other caregivers who would respond to her in the way I knew she needed to bond with them properly....I knew, because we were well bonded, that she was ready for the challenge of being with other children for more time than I could give her individually (being new to the area and slow to network with other moms)...and I knew from my experience with the former nanny that she was just slow to warm up but that she would be fine if she could bond with them - which she did (isn't that reading the cues of your child?)

And because she has had such separation anxiety, I hired the teachers from the school to babysit at night when I needed it because I believe in the "continuity of care" idea - I see the preschool teachers as part of my extended family in some sense. It's not ideal by any means but in today's society where so many of us are cut off from family (or have dysfunctional family!) we often have to "pay" our extended family....

Okay so I just say all of this because of all the slinging around of "complete strangers" and letting a child under one cry for their mommy with a stranger and whether or not it was appropriate for me to choose daycare...

I do have to say that the OP said she let her child cry for TWO HOURS with her DH (STBX?) - which I have never done and would never do because I simply wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I didn't hop in saying how bad she was to do that! I assumed there was more to the story (as we later found out about her situation with her DH) and didn't bring all my own assumptions to the table like you guys are doing!

Okay so while I think the CIO versus non-CIO distinctions can be respectfully disagreed on by thinking parties, I would really, really like it if ya'll wouldn't just assume a bunch of things about me that you don't know since you weren't there. Just argue from your own experience and your own background, if you please!

To the OP - while you and I just don't agree on what is CIO, I in no way intended to derail your thread and instead intended to show support - I hope you can recognize that...

peace,
robyn


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
That is obviously a completely different situation. If you are in danger of hurting your baby them crying with someone or alone - for a short period of time - is better than you hurting them. But just wanting time alone - even if you feel totally frazzled - is not a good enough reason IMO.

I probably would have said the same thing when my child was six months old. Given we are over 10 years later and I'm still dealing with some of the damage that happened to my health during this time I now strongly disagree.

Feeling frazzled is a good reason to take a break. Attachment parenting isn't just about attaching the child to one human being and never taking a minute's respite. Martyrdom and attachment parenting seem to be interchangeable in some people's minds but I disagree. I will also say that while I believe AP as it is properly interpreted can help children develop independence, I've seen the other side too where moms don't take care of themselves and never leave their children for the moment and the end result is overly anxious children and a burned out mom.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I probably would have said the same thing when my child was six months old. Given we are over 10 years later and I'm still dealing with some of the damage that happened to my health during this time I now strongly disagree.

Feeling frazzled is a good reason to take a break. Attachment parenting isn't just about attaching the child to one human being and never taking a minute's respite. Martyrdom and attachment parenting seem to be interchangeable in some people's minds but I disagree. I will also say that while I believe AP as it is properly interpreted can help children develop independence, I've seen the other side too where moms don't take care of themselves and never leave their children for the moment and the end result is overly anxious children and a burned out mom.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
.sounds like lazy parenting to me, sorry, i am glad you are able to justify it for her, but that def isnt AP parenting to me.

All the "checklists" that people seem to think are inherent in AP aside, at its core, AP is about listening to your child and respecting what your child is trying to tell you, while also responding to your child's needs. However we choose to use to implement that philosophy with our children is open for discussion and debate. But if we respect our children and respond to their needs -- and I do believe that if we're on this forum we try to, though we may not always succeed -- could we not also try to respect one another and respond to the other posters' needs as expressed through their writings with compassion and care?

The poster you are labeling as practicing "lazy parenting" is deserving of respect. She is deserving of compassion. And she was trying to *help* you (the OP) with her response! If you didn't find it useful or helpful, fair enough. But from snarky response #1, you have been unkind and unfair to her, IMO.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:

i need me time every day too, i get it either while the baby is sleeping, or i wait until the kids are playing nicely, and step outside for some fresh air, curl up on the couch and read a book while they are snuggled on the floor reading....you dont have to seperate yourself from your kids to get that down time that we all need.
But you see, you are judging others based only on your situation. Not everyone's situation is the same as yours. I have an EXTREMELY high needs child. There is NO "playing nicely" time when I could possibly step outside for fresh air. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Dd screams if I am more than a foot away from her and prefers direct physical contact with me. Every SECOND of the day. Literally. I can't just sit on a couch with her reading on the floor. Ha! She wants my FULL attention and full engagement literally EVERY SECOND. (I can only post on MDC when she is napping as she is now--IN MY ARMS because if I try to put her down she will wake up and scream). I have not pee'd, poop'ed or taken a shower alone in nearly two years. Until you have a child like mine, it's a little odd to hear you say that "we all get a little down time when we can." Some of us don't. Ever. And so some of choose to seek additional help because the situation I described above--MY situation--is not a healthy one. For anyone.

So I guess that makes me a bad AP parent.

But walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me....

......


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

yes, my son was like that for almost his first year. i still managed to find time after he was in bed at night, or would have dh give him a bath while i stepped outside. WHy dont you just give her to dh, and take a break? If she screams as long as she is being comforted, that is okay , right?

My daughter did not leave my arms for months when she was first born due to reflux. She even slept there. I never could put her down... I would still put her in the sling, and take a nice long walk while she was asleep, and collect myself. YOU are getting a break right now, while she sleeps and you are on the computer. So i am not understanding...do you have to be away from your child to get some downtime?


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I probably would have said the same thing when my child was six months old. Given we are over 10 years later and I'm still dealing with some of the damage that happened to my health during this time I now strongly disagree.

Feeling frazzled is a good reason to take a break. Attachment parenting isn't just about attaching the child to one human being and never taking a minute's respite. Martyrdom and attachment parenting seem to be interchangeable in some people's minds but I disagree. I will also say that while I believe AP as it is properly interpreted can help children develop independence, I've seen the other side too where moms don't take care of themselves and never leave their children for the moment and the end result is overly anxious children and a burned out mom.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
yes, my son was like that for almost his first year. i still managed to find time after he was in bed at night, or would have dh give him a bath while i stepped outside. WHy dont you just give her to dh, and take a break? If she screams as long as she is being comforted, that is okay , right?

My daughter did not leave my arms for months when she was first born due to reflux. She even slept there. I never could put her down... I would still put her in the sling, and take a nice long walk while she was asleep, and collect myself. YOU are getting a break right now, while she sleeps and you are on the computer. So i am not understanding...do you have to be away from your child to get some downtime?

Not physically, but mentally, yes. I do need a few minutes of "me" time to gather my thoughts. And this is not really "downtime" for me because in addition to MDC







, I also work at home. I use the hour and a half that dd is napping to work, not to rest. It is the ONLY time I can work and, well, we have bills to pay. Fortunately my work is on the computer so I can do it with her napping in one arm.

I can not hand her off to dh--he generally works nights and must sleep during the day. He is sleeping now. So that is not an option. Neither is getting "me" time when she goes to bed at night--she is a very light sleeper and if I try to get up she will wake up and cry. Generally even trying to pry my boob out of her mouth wakes her up. And aside from that, she still wakes up every two hours or so (even more frequently if she is teething, etc). So, nope, there is no "me" time at night, either--I am on 24 hour call--and since dh is generally working by that time, no one to "hand her off to." Great that your dh is willing and able to help, but again, every situation is different.

We also have NO family members in the state--meaning no aunts, uncles, or grandparents who could help out.

And by the way, we are way past "almost her first year" and "for months when she was first born" as was the case with your kids. That is so NOT the same thing. My daughter is turning two. I am still "on" 24/7. So where is my break? Where is this downtime you keep talking about?

Ah, anyway, I didn't mean to make this about me







I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge others and their parenting. I think everyone on this forum is trying to be the best parent they can. And each has to make certain decisions that others may not agree with or that others wouldn't personally choose for themselves and their families. We do the best we can and we all have different children with different temperments and different intensities of need, different spouses/partners with different abilities to participate in the day to day parenting challenges, different socio-economic conditions (i.e. the need or desire to work vs. the ability and desire to SAHM), different living arrangements, different personal "me time" needs (physical, mental, how often and how long), etc. There is no "one size fits all" in parenting, not even in AP









...................


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
Oh for pete's sake! Ya'll are judging me based on your own assumptions of my life and what was going on....when all I was trying to do was to sympathisize with the OP on having a HN kid and knowing how hard it is to have a child with high separation anxiety.

SO if you're going to judge me, let me just lay open my life for you to REALLY judge me and tell me all the mistakes I've made...(this is kinda long, sorry)

1 - my child was "AP'd" from birth...she co-slept, was worn in a sling until I was pregnant with #2 at 26 months, she BF until 26 months, etc

2 - my child never had a sitter before the age of 1. When she was 1 I went back to work and therefore had a sitter. We transitioned in as easily as we could - I worked from home for the first few weeks and was there to "help" the sitter and be available. There still was lots of crying, etc even when I was present and there to take her right back. Eventually I went back full time but after a month we were both miserable so I quit my job.

3 - we then moved to CA when she was 2...we didn't know anyone here, I had no luck finding a private sitter, her father and I were on the "outs" and he was NO help and I had no relief....she was a dynamo who needed lots of energy from me every day....so I looked at this nice little "daycare" where they wore the kids in slings and were/are very loving etc

4 - when I first took her to the preschool, I spent the first few days with her while I was there so she could see the routine and get used to the teachers....she seemed confident so we tried having me leave and wait outside for a half hour - we did that for 2 days and she didn't settle down....so we tried again the next week, etc - she didn't cry for a half-hour every time but she did cry each time for at least a little bit - enough to make the other parents notice....the director went out of her way to help Marley learn to release her fears and reassure her I was coming back...I wasn't sure if I was pushing her too much or not, but I had a gut feeling that once she bonded with them, she would LOVE it there - which she did.

5 - as far as "complete strangers" well frankly everyone is a stranger to a little child! it's great if you have family members or friends who are there to support you from birth, but some of us don't really have that - so strangers who we "pay" are sometimes more reliable/more caring than those relatives - at least in my experience - it was my doula who supported me in the birth of my 2nd child, not my mother - it was the teacher at the preschool who came over to do an overnight with my DD when my son was born - my DD would rather spend time with her preschool teacher than many of her relatives, etc

(also want to add - downtime for me when she napped? um, what naps? downtime when she was playing? um, there IS no playing alone for an ADHD child! we're talking seriously HN and later dx as SN)

6 - people are reacting to the "LOL" part of my post - well I tend to use humor to sort of ease things that have alot of tension for me....it's easier for me to look back on that experience as her becoming a "legend - LOL" than to be all solemn and serious....but I know some folks see that as being inappropriate - all I can say is that having a SN, HN child makes me turn to "gallows" humor to cope...

7- finally - I really, really think that I handled the entire transition to prescool in a VERY AP manner - I made sure that my DD had other caregivers who would respond to her in the way I knew she needed to bond with them properly....I knew, because we were well bonded, that she was ready for the challenge of being with other children for more time than I could give her individually (being new to the area and slow to network with other moms)...and I knew from my experience with the former nanny that she was just slow to warm up but that she would be fine if she could bond with them - which she did (isn't that reading the cues of your child?)

And because she has had such separation anxiety, I hired the teachers from the school to babysit at night when I needed it because I believe in the "continuity of care" idea - I see the preschool teachers as part of my extended family in some sense. It's not ideal by any means but in today's society where so many of us are cut off from family (or have dysfunctional family!) we often have to "pay" our extended family....

Okay so I just say all of this because of all the slinging around of "complete strangers" and letting a child under one cry for their mommy with a stranger and whether or not it was appropriate for me to choose daycare...

I do have to say that the OP said she let her child cry for TWO HOURS with her DH (STBX?) - which I have never done and would never do because I simply wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I didn't hop in saying how bad she was to do that! I assumed there was more to the story (as we later found out about her situation with her DH) and didn't bring all my own assumptions to the table like you guys are doing!

Okay so while I think the CIO versus non-CIO distinctions can be respectfully disagreed on by thinking parties, I would really, really like it if ya'll wouldn't just assume a bunch of things about me that you don't know since you weren't there. Just argue from your own experience and your own background, if you please!

To the OP - while you and I just don't agree on what is CIO, I in no way intended to derail your thread and instead intended to show support - I hope you can recognize that...

peace,
robyn

Hi Hippymama,

I'm sorry you felt the need to type all that out and justify yourself!

I think you sound like a fantastic mom.

J


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
Hi Hippymama,

I'm sorry you felt the need to type all that out and justify yourself!

I think you sound like a fantastic mom.

J


Me too


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC* 
I have not pee'd, poop'ed or taken a shower alone in nearly two years.

i know you absolutely don't mean this comment to be funny - but i am laughing SO hard right now! my kids are almost 6 and 3 1/2 and i very rarely take a shower alone---STILL!!!!!


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
i know you absolutely don't mean this comment to be funny - but i am laughing SO hard right now! my kids are almost 6 and 3 1/2 and i very rarely take a shower alone---STILL!!!!!









LOL, good to know what I have to "look forward" to


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

evc, arnt you in school and your child in daycare? so how is it that you get absolutely no time away from your dd?


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

i haven't read through the entire thread, but my gut reaction is to get a different psychologist. quickly.

my mother is a child psychologist and behavioral analyst that now specializes in autistic children. she's been working with kids since the 80's...and she is ADAMANT against letting them cry it out. if anything, that will LESSEN their trust...and make them MORE likely to sull.


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## alexysmommy (Mar 9, 2005)

thanks







i def will not be going back to this lady.


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
evc, arnt you in school and your child in daycare? so how is it that you get absolutely no time away from your dd?

I will be in school in the fall and dd will be in daycare. But I am currently a SAHM who does a little WAH.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I probably would have said the same thing when my child was six months old. Given we are over 10 years later and I'm still dealing with some of the damage that happened to my health during this time I now strongly disagree.

Feeling frazzled is a good reason to take a break. Attachment parenting isn't just about attaching the child to one human being and never taking a minute's respite. Martyrdom and attachment parenting seem to be interchangeable in some people's minds but I disagree. I will also say that while I believe AP as it is properly interpreted can help children develop independence, I've seen the other side too where moms don't take care of themselves and never leave their children for the moment and the end result is overly anxious children and a burned out mom.

Um, my kids are 6.5 YEARS, 4.5 YEARS and 1.5 YEARS and they are all high needs/special needs to varying degrees so I am not new to this.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Um, my kids are 6.5 YEARS, 4.5 YEARS and 1.5 YEARS and they are all high needs/special needs to varying degrees so I am not new to this.

I didn't say you'd feel differently - I said I did.

And, for the record if I'd had two or three I'd probably not have gotten at that point. For me it took more distance from the experience in order to really be able to process it. And, again, I am not suggesting you'd draw the same conclusions. Some folks stick with AP as martyrdom forever.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

: glass houses, people...every family needs to find a balance that's right for them, it's as simple as that. Clearly, all who participate on MDC believe in fundamentally the same parenting principles...
And to the OP...I definitely think it would be wise to find a new ped. as s/he clearly doesn't understand the basics of child development enough to know that separation anxiety is normal, healthy and to be expected...
forget the shrink, I don't even think you need one for your babe...


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

momma-d;8954693.every family needs to find a balance that's right for them said:


> : Not everything works for every family and while I love this board and community at times I get so annoyed because its easy to walk away thinking we must all parent the same way. That's crazy, we don't all have the same child.. some Mamas are happy to never leave their kids, some are like me and must have me time. I don't get my me time and Mama Shay becomes a unhappy woman which doesn't make for a great Mama/child time.
> 
> I wasn't aware of AP as a practice with my son but considering I had him at 19 I can honestly say the things I do now at 34 with my dd probably would have been too much for me at 19. The thing is its a real easy to confuse AP with Mama martyr and sometimes its after reading threads like this that I see why AP may never appeal to the masses.
> 
> ...


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I didn't say you'd feel differently - I said I did.

And, for the record if I'd had two or three I'd probably not have gotten at that point. For me it took more distance from the experience in order to really be able to process it. And, again, I am not suggesting you'd draw the same conclusions. Some folks stick with AP as martyrdom forever.

You're saying it would be easier if you'd had three kids?







: Never heard that one before...


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
You're saying it would be easier if you'd had three kids?







: Never heard that one before...

I don't get that either! I hope she will explain. I know that for me, two was about 400 times harder than one. I thought it'd only be twice as hard. Joke was on me!


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

My ds is now 3 and was a reflux baby and hated to be separated from me just like the op's little one. It was really hard at the time, but I stuck it out and I'm happy to report that he's fine now! He will happily spend time with just dh, or my in-laws or my mom and siblings.

It won't last forever. Follow your heart and do what you know to be best for your child. No expert knows your child better than you do!


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

: I made it through the whole thing.

Wow.

1st:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
<snip>
I wanted to say that it seems really unusual to me that a pediatrician would refer a one year old for this kind of problem or that a psychologist would agree to take the appointment. It gets me wondering if there is more to this than we are hearing in a single post. What kinds of problems are you having? It sounds like there must be something you and the pediatrician are concerned about. What kind of help were you hoping to get? It sounds like you didn't get it so I'm wondering if there is still something going on that you could use help with.

I wondered myself, why would your ped think a _ONE YEAR OLD_ has any need of a psychologist... barring any obvious signs of chemical imbalance, or behavioral imbalance.

Ok... 2nd:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
<snip>
the more i think about this, the more i want to do SOMETHING about this lady...educate her, write a letter to someone about her..i dont know exactly, but it really upsets me to know she is telling people that they need to let their children CIO in order for them to be independant...i cant imagine how many people she has already told that to, that have LISTENED to her.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexysmommy* 
<snip>i am going to read through everything, and drop a letter off to her next week when i go back. even if she doesnt take it seriously, at least i will know that i tried.

Did you send a letter to her office? Any response? I wanted to recommend you call your ped out on sending a mom he knows (hope he knows, otherwise tell him ffr) is an AP, anti-CIO mom to such a half-wit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Yes! Never talk to the ped about non-medical problems. "How's he sleeping?" "Great!" "How's he eating?" "Great!"

Also, you master the "smile and nod" technique. "Now that your baby is 6 months, you need to introduce cereal." Smile and nod. "Your baby is a year now, so wean him since there's no benefit to continuing nursing." Smile and nod. "Make sure your baby is sleeping in his own bed." Smile and nod.

Now imagine you had to do this at all the family functions... with your _father-in-law_... dc's _pediatritian_... tho fil doesn't do the poking and prodding, it's just his practice and colleagues we see... but still.

*alexysmommy*: a book you may find really valuable as supplemental to your APing technique...(click links) Raising a Secure Child: Creating an Emotional Connection Between You and Your Child
Zeynep Biringen, Ph.D. which uses the Emotional Availability Scales (she innovated them) to constantly and consistently adjust and maintain the _quality_ of Attachment we have with our children... from infant into late adolescence (20's).

Excerpts from review:

Quote:

_* Using the principles of emotional availability, along with plenty of exercises and examples of how to put these principles to use, Dr. Biringen teaches parents to identify strategies of connection that work with their children, assess the strong points and weak points of their relationships and work on both, deal with behavioral problems in different age groups, and build an emotional safety net for children to serve as a powerful and effective foundation for future success._

_* The book covers the Eight Principles of Emotional Availability, the two sides of emotional connection, the impact of your own childhood on your child (you may be harboring more childhood baggage than you think!), ways to keep the connection strong even during stressful times, and supporting your child through their school years, divorce, remarriage or a major crisis, when the bonds of deep connection can often become fragile._


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