# Are you going to ERF?



## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

If not why not?

Im taking my CPST class next month and doing a event thing where we will be talking to people about ERFing, I know some of the reasons why people want to turn their kids sooner (and have all the info to counter those reasons!) - just trying to figure out if I missed anything!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Have, am, and will continue to do so


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## 2 in August (Jan 6, 2006)

I'm keeping my ds rfing as long as possible too. The most common complaint about rfing amongst my friends is that the kids just scream non-stop and the parents feel like it's a safety hazard to drive while distracted by the screaming baby/toddler. I'm the only one of all my friends who is doing erfing and harnessing my 6.5 yo instead of switching to a booster.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Other than a medical reason (ive heard of bad reflux), I am curious as to see anyone's reasons "why not". B/C I just don't get it. RF'ing is safer period.

My 27 month old is RF'ing and will be until he reached 35 lbs., the limit of his seat. he will be harnessed until i cant find a seat to harness him in anymore.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

I am ERF but I can tell you reasons that other people have told me it's wrong or stupid LOL
Legs hitting the back seat would be number one. Head hitting the back seat I've heard too. The "fact" that the baby wants to be able to sit forward to see has been something I've been told. Of course there's always the argument that rear facing is pointless or not needed.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm a huge RF advocate, but I'll toss out one I heard this week.

This is a very educated mom, has kept her ds rf until now. Son is about 20 months.

She turned him around to try it for a long trip AND she's tired of the back of the seat where he sits always being gross from his dirty shoes....

-Angela


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## JennaW (Oct 11, 2007)

I absolutely plan on RFing until I reach within a pound of the RF limit and then I will turn. I also plan on harnessing as long as possible.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I'm a huge RF advocate, but I'll toss out one I heard this week.

This is a very educated mom, has kept her ds rf until now. Son is about 20 months.

She turned him around to try it for a long trip AND she's tired of the back of the seat where he sits always being gross from his dirty shoes....

-Angela

i do 2 things for that:

1. try to take the shoes after buckling him up and
2. i put a tshirt over my car seat so if his shoes or socks are dirty from playing (lately) it doesnt get teh car seat dirty.

We just bought a new car and I really want the seats to stay clean (well i wan the whole car to stay clean).


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm all about ERF but the most common reason I've heard for early FFing is because their legs are scrunched, or parents wanted to be able to see them.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Let's see, things I've heard:

He wants to watch the DVD player (my son does this rfing btw)
He likes it better ffing
He wants to sit like his older sister (or brother)
He cries and it distracts me
It's hard to get him in when he's rfing
It's hard to hand them things when they're rfing

However none of these things are worth a child's life though. My children like to run through parking lots too, but I don't let them. Evan is 3yrs 4 mos and does get to ride ffing sometimes, but in my van except for rare things, he still rides rfing. Ilana is almost 18 mos and has never been ffing and I don't expect her to for a long time.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

my daughter gets very carsick sometimes (we noticed the only times she was still "spitting up" was in the car) and we heard ff may help that. she also gets very anxious in the car (possibly from the car sickness). we tried her out ff for a few days to see if it helped, but it didn't. so we turned her back around. if she was fine foward facing though, i think we would have left her that way.









we have a dvd player too and she can see it fine rear-facing (even in her blvd with the headwings).

eta - dd is 20 months.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't have any kids yet, but I plan to ERF (and HWH).

I'm kind of a safety freak. If there was a molded rearfacing seat for my dog, she'd be in it.







As it is, she's in a PetBuckle - which lots of people find very weird. Oh well.

Anyway, the only reason I can think of for not ERFing would be bad reflux. My goddaughter had this very badly and she would choke when she was reclined. She was turned around at a year. It's not perfect, but in this case I think it was the right decision.

I can see not rear facing to the limits of the seat in other certain situations, but I can't see turning before 2. Screaming that was distracting would be one of those situations. This is all hypothetical still though. I haven't had to actually drive with a screaming toddler in my backseat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
Anyway, the only reason I can think of for not ERFing would be bad reflux. My goddaughter had this very badly and she would choke when she was reclined. She was turned around at a year. It's not perfect, but in this case I think it was the right decision.

FWIW it's possible to be quite upright and still rf.









-Angela


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh cool, I did not know that. I mean it doesn't do anything for DGD, she's 5 now. But it's still good to know.

How upright are we talking? Like as upright as FF, or is it a certain angle?


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
I don't have any kids yet, but I plan to ERF (and HWH).

I'm kind of a safety freak. If there was a molded rearfacing seat for my dog, she'd be in it.








As it is, she's in a PetBuckle - which lots of people find very weird. Oh well.

Anyway, the only reason I can think of for not ERFing would be bad reflux. My goddaughter had this very badly and she would choke when she was reclined. She was turned around at a year. It's not perfect, but in this case I think it was the right decision.

I can see not rear facing to the limits of the seat in other certain situations, but I can't see turning before 2. Screaming that was distracting would be one of those situations. This is all hypothetical still though. I haven't had to actually drive with a screaming toddler in my backseat.

My DD can't swallow, has to be suctioned, and aspirates her saliva and vomit. And she HAS to be at 45 degrees because of her low tone/poor head control. We don't plan to turn her around because of these issues. We DID break one rule...we have a mirror set up so I can see her and pull over if I need to help her out. We have the seat tethered rf'ing to keep her from rebounding into it.

Even kids with special needs can be rear-facing. You just have to adapt.

And IME, most kids with these issues get *better* with age.

Sorry, I still don't think this a good excuse for turning.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
Sorry, I still don't think this a good excuse for turning.

i'm sure for some people it is though. there are probably *some* kids out there that need to be more upright than you can get with a rf carseat or who aren't able to get a good mirror set up safely. obviously it would not be a good excuse for you, but certainly there are people with similar problems that benefit more from ff.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aja-belly* 
i'm sure for some people it is though. there are probably *some* kids out there that need to be more upright than you can get with a rf carseat or who aren't able to get a good mirror set up safely. obviously it would not be a good excuse for you, but certainly there are people with similar problems that benefit more from ff.

My point was, my DD has an extremely severe condition, much more severe than just reflux. She literally aspirates everytime she tries to swallow. People who turn for reflux usually do keep them rf'ing for a while, even for a year, but then turn. I want to know why they dealt with it before a year, but after a year they feel it's just too risky?

Sorry, I still think it's just an excuse and there are ways to get around it.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Our oldest rear faced to 34 months. We had no issues with rear facing, but we had to replace our carseats after an accident, and it made more financial sense to buy larger seats. With the new seats, we could only fit one rear facing in our car, so the oldest got turned. She was about 28 pounds, only two pounds short of the limit for her seat.

Our middle child is rear facing now, and she will be turned due to space constraints as well. We can get three Radians into our backseat, but we can only fit one RF, and that will go to the baby. So DD2 will be about 27 pounds and 32 months when she gets turned.

What I find strange about all of this is that it's no secret that RF is safer... for everybody. When trains crash the rear facing passengers generally fair better than the forward facing ones. There have been experiments with rear facing seats on school buses, but there were problems with carsickness (in older children) and larger, day to day safety issues with the driver not being able to see what the kids were doing.

It's the same thing with keeping a child in a 5pt harness as long as possible... fighter pilots and race car drivers wear 5pt harnesses for a reason. After DH was in a minor accident he had some back pain and when he talked to our doctor about it the conversation degraded into a discussion of how 5pt belts are are better, and probably would have stopped the lateral movement that caused the back pain... but people find 3pt belts more comfortable and convenient.


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## MommaGreenBean (May 8, 2007)

We RF, but the most common reason is that 'it's easier' is what I hear.

Or the "I trust God' which totally drives me nuts. As if I'm less of a Christian because I RF my DD... I tell them that I don't completely believe we were designed to be going 30+ mph so I'm going to go ahead and use my knowledge of physics to keep my child safe.


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## jsnmom (Jan 19, 2008)

I didn't ERF with my boys because I honestly didn't know any better. Nobody told tell me that it was much safer and I didn't know anyone in person who did. Since the law stated 1 yr and 20# I figured it was safe, no mention of internal decapitation, ever. I have learned about ERF by reading messageboards like these. I wish pedis would recommend ERF or that it would be mentioned in the news, baby shows etc. DD is getting her Radian soon and she will ERF, because now I know better.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Have, am, and will continue to do so

















:


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## mogit (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2 in August* 
The most common complaint about rfing amongst my friends is that the kids just scream non-stop and the parents feel like it's a safety hazard to drive while distracted by the screaming baby/toddler.

This was my reason for turning DD around when she turned one. She would get just hysterical when RF, and I could not concentrate on driving.

Well, DD is 3 now but only 26 lbs., so when I had to buy her a new carseat, I decided (on the advice of some MDC moms) to install it RF. I didn't expect this to go over well, but DD LOVES her new carseat and has never once complained about being RF! So, OP, you might let parents know that even if they think they have to turn the child around FF for some reason, it IS possible to return to RF later.

As for dirty seatbacks, I bought a pair of plastic seatback protectors from One Step Ahead and attached one to the seat FRONT where DD places her feet. She likes having a seatback protector like her big brother (6 1/2 and harnessed in a Husky).


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I can agree with some of these. my DD2 is 18m and still RFing, but I did turn her recently for a trip.







It was a nightmare with a different car then our's, we normally drive a minivan and I sit with her, it wasn't possible after 20 miles of her screaming nonstop because I wasn't with her, and several hours to go, we pulled over and flipped her, problem solved.









I won't be flipping her her anytime soon (other then that one time), but I will say, at least for me, it is much easier when they are FFing. Handing them items is easier, my seat back isn't filthy or I don't have a t-shirt hanging of the seat. Taking off their shoes each and every time is just an option for me, it just adds even more time to every stop. I will be glad when DD2 is FFing, but I won't be rushing her along.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I turned ds#1 ff around 15 or 16 months because consistently, after 15 minutes in the car, he would get really upset and start signing "pain" and pointing to his legs. He was very good at sign language, so I had no doubt his legs were hurting him that way. I do have abnormally large and tall kiddos who must have gotten some weird recessive gene in the family! I wish I'd thought to try turning him back around when he was older to see if he did better, but he has been ff since then (he would have outgrown his seat by weight around 2 anyways). He actually has asked me to ride backwards since his little brother (9 months) does, but he's too heavy.







Now if only the Radian would get certified to 40lbs rfing!

DS#2 will stay rfing as long as I can manage to keep him that way. He's only 9 months, so he has a long ways to go!


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

We did not the first time, because I didn't know any better. I will probably have to fight DH on it as well. The reasons he wanted to turn as soon as we legally could (1year + 20 pounds) was that she was not entertained facing backwards and was getting very fussy about it. Once we turned her forward, she was happy and there was no going back to the other way. I am hoping that next time the next child will be entertained by his/her older sister and we can keep him/her rear facing for longer.


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## s_kristina (Aug 9, 2004)

With my 6 year old dd I had never heard of ERFing. She was actually turned a couple weeks before she was a year old which stopped the puking every time we drove more then a couple miles. My 2.5 year old was rfing until around 22 months when he was close to the limits of his Scenera for rfing. As I didn't know when I would be able to weigh him again and he was close to the height limit as well I turned his seat ffing. I'll keep our newborn rfing to the limits of the seat like I did with ds1. He is currently in a snugride which I expect him to outgrow by 6 months when he'll move to the Scenera to stay rfing as long as possible.


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

My DS is 16mos and still RF and will be RF until he hits 30lbs (unless Canada comes out with a seat that can RF to 33-35 lbs, in which case I will be buying one of those for the extra lbs). DD was turned at 20lbs because I didn't know any better. She currently rides in a booster and if there was a seat up here that could keep her harnessed, she'd be harnessed!


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

My friend FF her son at 11 mos because she was concerned about his "social" development, because her ped. said it was okay, and because she has a minivan, which is so much "safer" than my car that it renders the RF reasoning irrelevant.

And nothing I can do or say will convince her otherwise, because of the whole "doctor says to do it" thing.


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## Jen_in_NH (Jul 16, 2007)

My son just turned 1, and he just went to forward facing (don't shoot..). He's 30lbs and 34". If he was smaller, and was still within the weight limit, he'd still be backwards. His legs were smushed, but he didn't care. He never minded being rear facing, so that wasn't the issue either. Who knew I was going to have a little linebacker


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

I didn't with DS as I did not know better, but DD is tiny and will be RF for quite awhile. She is 2y7m, and maybe 21 lb. I think she is one of those kids who will be under the weight/height limits for RF till she is 5 in her seat (Decathlon)! Since she is so little, I feel better about her staying RF. As she grows older and bigger, we will reevaluate, but for now, she is happy, she LIKES being able to have her soft toys right there in front of her (FF they would fall off the seat!) and it is easier for her to talk to her big brother who is FF in his Marathon at age 5.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen_in_NH* 
My son just turned 1, and he just went to forward facing (don't shoot..). He's 30lbs and 34". If he was smaller, and was still within the weight limit, he'd still be backwards. His legs were smushed, but he didn't care. He never minded being rear facing, so that wasn't the issue either. Who knew I was going to have a little linebacker









At only a year I think it is VERY important that you get a few more months RF. I would get a seat that RF to a higher weight (35lbs in your case)

-Angela


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Anyone have some statistics on RF vs. FF? I'd like to see them. Not being snarky, just curious. The stat our ped gave me when I asked him was not much difference at all between RF and FF. So we turned my dd around at a year.

I'm totally on board about the 5pt harnesses, though. I wish we had them for me!


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Anyone have some statistics on RF vs. FF? I'd like to see them. Not being snarky, just curious. The stat our ped gave me when I asked him was not much difference at all between RF and FF. So we turned my dd around at a year.

I'm totally on board about the 5pt harnesses, though. I wish we had them for me!






http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...npreschool.htm

Those two resources convinced me.

Scarlett is 25 months and still RF. With how tiny she is, she could possibly be going to kindegarten RF.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Anyone have some statistics on RF vs. FF? I'd like to see them. Not being snarky, just curious. The stat our ped gave me when I asked him was not much difference at all between RF and FF. So we turned my dd around at a year.

I'm totally on board about the 5pt harnesses, though. I wish we had them for me!

This article states that children under 2 are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured while riding FFing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9916868

This has some good info:
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/StayRearFacing.aspx

Even AAP policy now states that if the child restraint can accomodate a child past 1 year and 20lbs they should still rear face.
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...cs%3b109/3/550


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

DS will turn two on Sunday and he is still RF and we plan to do so until he reaches the weight limit for the seat (33# on a Radian80).


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Ok, so here's another question. We can't afford a bigger car, but our car's not big enough to install a full sized convertable carseat reversed... at least not to manufacturer's recommendations. What should I do? The infant seat my son is in only goes up to 20 lbs (I think? definitely not beyond say 25, and by that time, my tall slender son's head will be over the top) and he's 19 lbs now, so I need to figure this out quick. I probably should have started a new thread, huh?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Ok, so here's another question. We can't afford a bigger car, but our car's not big enough to install a full sized convertable carseat reversed... at least not to manufacturer's recommendations. What should I do? The infant seat my son is in only goes up to 20 lbs (I think? definitely not beyond say 25, and by that time, my tall slender son's head will be over the top) and he's 19 lbs now, so I need to figure this out quick. I probably should have started a new thread, huh?

Why do you think it's not big enough? Once they're past the newborn stage the convertible seats can be installed VERY upright. I had no trouble fitting a boulevard in our civic RF.

-Angela


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Is that ok? It seems like the manufacturer's instructions says it ought to be leaning when it's backward. Is it still safe to put it upright, and how do you know?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Is that ok? It seems like the manufacturer's instructions says it ought to be leaning when it's backward. Is it still safe to put it upright, and how do you know?

I'm sure a tech will be through here, but the major recline angle is only needed for newborns. Most seats still have to be in a "reclined" position on the base, but they can be MUCH more upright than a newborn needs.

-Angela


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

DD is 19.5 mo and rear facing. She will be until she reaches the height and/or weight maximums for RFing in our seat.

When I went to get my seat installed at an inspection station a few months ago after replacing it due to an accident, the trained tech said he'd never seen a baby over one rear facing "still," and asked about her legs being folded against the back seat. I told him in a major accident, I'd much rather deal with a baby with a broken leg than a broken skull, or worse. he pointed to the side of the deat that said one year and 20 pounds. I whipped out the manual that clearly states baby is safer rear facing and can do so in our seat up to 30 (33? Crud, now I'm going to have to go check) pounds.

I told him I don't like doing the "bare minimum" of anything for my child, why start doing the bare minimum in the one area where her physical safety is most at risk?

The other tech jumped in and told him I was totally right. He said he would have jumped in if I got stumped, but that I was "right on" and well educated on the topic. I told him everything I knew came from MDC and reading the car seat manual!

But, to be honest, I'm not sure if I understood the benefits of (or had ever really even heard of) ERFing until I started reading here, months after baby was born. "You just turn them at one year, right? I mean, that's what 'everyone' does!" was probably what I thought.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I'm sure a tech will be through here, but the major recline angle is only needed for newborns. Most seats still have to be in a "reclined" position on the base, but they can be MUCH more upright than a newborn needs.

-Angela

Huh. I wonder if my daughter's carseat is different... it's all one piece, it doesn't recline on a separate base... but maybe that's not what you mean? I'm trying to picture how that would work w/the carseat we have







I'll have to mess with it and try some things. We need to get new carseats for the both of them, anyway......


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

I did turn DS FF at a year. I had heard of ERF, never thought much about it honestly. He was well over 30 lbs, and my ignorant self thought he'd be fine. Before I knew better, he was over the weight limit for RF.

DD and any future children will be RF until the reach the limit. For DD that will be a very long time...she's small.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Huh. I wonder if my daughter's carseat is different... it's all one piece, it doesn't recline on a separate base... but maybe that's not what you mean? I'm trying to picture how that would work w/the carseat we have







I'll have to mess with it and try some things. We need to get new carseats for the both of them, anyway......


even seats with just a reclined or not reclined option (like with the foot down or not) can be installed more or less upright by how you buckle it up or if/how you use a noodle or towel.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I was clueless about ERF with ds 1 but I am def interested.

I have never a child older than a year RF so I am having a hard time imagining where their legs go...it seems like they would be all scrunched up.

Please tell me what I am missing! I really want to be won over to ERF!!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Huh. I wonder if my daughter's carseat is different... it's all one piece, it doesn't recline on a separate base... but maybe that's not what you mean? I'm trying to picture how that would work w/the carseat we have







I'll have to mess with it and try some things. We need to get new carseats for the both of them, anyway......

What seat do you have?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aja-belly* 
even seats with just a reclined or not reclined option (like with the foot down or not) can be installed more or less upright by how you buckle it up or if/how you use a noodle or towel.

Yes, this is exactly right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I was clueless about ERF with ds 1 but I am def interested.

I have never a child older than a year RF so I am having a hard time imagining where their legs go...it seems like they would be all scrunched up.

Please tell me what I am missing! I really want to be won over to ERF!!

They just cross their legs. Quite simple, really








Info

Quote:

Won't my child be uncomfortable? Where do his legs go?

Many parents have the misconception that children are uncomfortable or at risk for leg injury by having their legs up on the vehicle seat or bent when kept rear-facing. These concepts are completely incorrect. First, children are more flexible than adults so what we perceive as uncomfortable is not for children. Think about how your child sits in everyday play. Do they sit with their legs straight out in front of them? When they sit on the couch, do they purposely sit so their legs dangle out over the edge? No. In real, everyday life, toddlers and preschoolers CHOSE to sit with their legs folded up - that IS comfort to them.

Second, there is not a single documented case of children's legs, hips, etc. breaking or being injured in a crash due to longer rear-facing. There are plenty of cases of head and neck injury in forward-facing children that could have been prevented if the child had remained rear-facing. However, even if a leg or hip were broken or injured, it can be fixed. A damaged spinal cord (from forward-facing too soon) cannot be repaired and subjects the child to lifelong disability or death.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
What seat do you have?

I *think* it's the older version of the Graco Comfort Sport. It's not what I could find on the graco site, though, so I think they must have changed the style. We're looking into doing radian 60s though for both of them.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

We are absolutely going to ERF. In fact, I just bought a True Fit on sale yesterday.

I LOVE car seats, trying out different ones, reading about them and bore DH to tears whenever we go to a store because I walk the car seat aisle and point out the pros and cons of various seats.

We have a FPSVD that I'm giving to SIL in hopes of encouraging her to ERF (my niece is in an outgrown snugride and it makes me really, really nervous. If nothing else, I'm going to install it and make sure it's rock solid, even if it's FF.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

An_Aurora...thanks!!!!
That is exactly what I needed...some kind of visual. Those kids look more comfy than when my son's legs just dangle.
I had never really thought about it, but I am much more comfortable siting with my legs crossed than with them dangling. I think that is why ds is always putting his feet on the back of the seat that is in front of him!









I love MDC


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## ScotiaSky (Jul 2, 2004)

DS rear faced to 18 months and around 28 lbs but I think after looking at some pictures the other day where he was 11 months and 25 lbs he might have been more then 28 lbs when he was turned.

DD is currently rear facing at 27 months and 24lbs or so and will be until the limits of her seats.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I *think* it's the older version of the Graco Comfort Sport. It's not what I could find on the graco site, though, so I think they must have changed the style. We're looking into doing radian 60s though for both of them.

It's possible to adjust the angle on any seat. For more reclined, you make sure that the base of the car seat is up against the seat bight (the seat bight is the 'crack' where the back of the vehicle seat meets the bottom seat cushion) when you install. To make it more upright, you pull the base of the car seat out from the seat bight a couple of inches to install.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

I want to ERF, but DS is so huge for his age that he's not going to make it past 18 months in his seat (a Britax Marathon). Ah well - maybe next time I'll breed a smaller baby?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemurmommies* 
I want to ERF, but DS is so huge for his age that he's not going to make it past 18 months in his seat (a Britax Marathon). Ah well - maybe next time I'll breed a smaller baby?

By weight?


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
An_Aurora...thanks!!!!
That is exactly what I needed...some kind of visual. Those kids look more

Did you notice the 2 really cute ones in that link, AJ and Evan.







I need to see if Jenn would update Evan's pic since he's still rfing at almost 41 mos old!

Now that you've seen how they do it, and why we do it, go turn that baby back around!


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Rear faced my son until 4+ and just had to turn him around. Used a Britax Hi-Way seat which is awesome. There are many reasons why parents don't rear face (in my humble opinion) Most simply don't know it's better. Sounds crazy for some but truth is I've travelled a lot around the world with my kids, and my rfing seats, and never met anyone who knew you should not turn kiddo around at 12 months.

Other reasons are limited leg space, bad visibility, danger from rear crashes, and not sitting upright. There is no problem with leg space, legs are slightly bent but my kids have NEVER complained about this. Bad visibility is simply not true. My daughter is 20 months and sits very upright, she can see the outside just fine. RF seats are as safe, or safer , than FF seats in a crash from behind. My daughter had acid reflux when she was younger but being rf did not make any difference. She nagged regardless of position.....









Over here in Sweden we can disable airbags and install rf sets in the front passenger seat. This is actually the safest way but not allowed in all countries. This is great for communication with the child, it leads to less distractions and less screaming. It's therefore highly recommended over here.

II think a crash test where you can see two children side by side in a crash test is great for convincing people to rf longer. Make sure the kids are sitting side by side or crash one after another. It's a very powerful way of showing just how bad ff is for young kids.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
By weight?

Yes, by weight. I am already making an informed decision to misuse my Canadian Marathon RF past 30 pounds.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
My friend FF her son at 11 mos because she was concerned about his "social" development, because her ped. said it was okay, and because she has a minivan, which is so much "safer" than my car that it renders the RF reasoning irrelevant.

And nothing I can do or say will convince her otherwise, because of the whole "doctor says to do it" thing.

thats sad. pediatricians often have no business giving our car seat safety advice...they seem to not read the AAP opinions.








Perhaps showing that to your friend may get her to reconsider.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen_in_NH* 
My son just turned 1, and he just went to forward facing (don't shoot..). He's 30lbs and 34". If he was smaller, and was still within the weight limit, he'd still be backwards. His legs were smushed, but he didn't care. He never minded being rear facing, so that wasn't the issue either. Who knew I was going to have a little linebacker









im confused, then, as to why you placed him FF"ing...did your seat only go to 30 lbs? there are seats that go to 35 lbs. RF'ing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Anyone have some statistics on RF vs. FF? I'd like to see them. Not being snarky, just curious. The stat our ped gave me when I asked him was not much difference at all between RF and FF. So we turned my dd around at a year.

I'm totally on board about the 5pt harnesses, though. I wish we had them for me!

wow! again, pediatricians giving advice. there are many stats about RF'ing being safer and the AAP even states to keep kids RF'ing to the limit of the seat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Is that ok? It seems like the manufacturer's instructions says it ought to be leaning when it's backward. Is it still safe to put it upright, and how do you know?

i may have missed what car you have....but what does your manual say exactly? i have never met anyone w/ a car (small) that couldnt get a good installation on one seat or another RF'ing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
When I went to get my seat installed at an inspection station a few months ago after replacing it due to an accident, the trained tech said he'd never seen a baby over one rear facing "still," and asked about her legs being folded against the back seat. I told him in a major accident, I'd much rather deal with a baby with a broken leg than a broken skull, or worse. he pointed to the side of the deat that said one year and 20 pounds. I whipped out the manual that clearly states baby is safer rear facing and can do so in our seat up to 30 (33? Crud, now I'm going to have to go check) pounds.

I told him I don't like doing the "bare minimum" of anything for my child, why start doing the bare minimum in the one area where her physical safety is most at risk?

techs like that scare the heck out of me! good for you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I was clueless about ERF with ds 1 but I am def interested.

I have never a child older than a year RF so I am having a hard time imagining where their legs go...it seems like they would be all scrunched up.

Please tell me what I am missing! I really want to be won over to ERF!!

i do find other advantages to RF'ing, other than safety, also. the fact that ds can play with a stuffed animal and not drop it over and over and over....lol!

i do believe there has NEVER been a documented case of broken legs in a crash either, at least that is what i have read.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I *think* it's the older version of the Graco Comfort Sport. It's not what I could find on the graco site, though, so I think they must have changed the style. We're looking into doing radian 60s though for both of them.

do you know the date it was manufactured? it should have that on the base (or an expiration date).

wow! this was my very first EVER time using the mulit-quote function! how cool! lol!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemurmommies* 
Yes, by weight. I am already making an informed decision to misuse my Canadian Marathon RF past 30 pounds.

I'm not sure why but this cracked me up


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I'm not sure why but this cracked me up









Oh, I agree. I mean, it sounds kind of terrible to say that I am purposely misusing my son's car seat. But, since the exact same seats are rated to 33 pounds in the US, that's how long I'm going to keep him RF. Which, if I am lucky, will buy me 6-8 more weeks.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juvysen
Anyone have some statistics on RF vs. FF? I'd like to see them. Not being snarky, just curious. The stat our ped gave me when I asked him was not much difference at all between RF and FF. So we turned my dd around at a year.
There lots of data available showing not only that rf is safer, it's MUCH safer. It's roughly 5 times safer. Much of the data is from Sweden since we rear face longer than anyone. Our car seats rear faces until 55 lbs. and most of our children stay rf until age 4. Our accident statistics are the envy of the world simply because of this. It's very unusual for a child to die in a rf seat regardless of how serious the crash is. Here is one source, in Swedish, I have many more

To put this into numbers. Statistically, if you have 100 serious crashes with children in rear facing seats, 92 of those will walk away and 8 will die or become paralyzed. With forward facing seats, 60 will walk away and 40 will die or become paralyzed. It's quite a difference.

Video is usually a powerful way to show the difference in seats. There are many videos on the web where you can see the differences. I have a short one running on my site, on the right side, where you can see two kids crashing in different seats. Take a look at it and let me know in which seat you want to place your child.....

"PassionateWriter" gave some good answers above. There is no problem with the leg space. The legs will not be straight but I've never heard a kid complain about this. My son was just turned FF at age 4+, there was still no issue with the legs. It's a well known myth and and excuse many parents use to turn their kids around earlier than necessary.


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## jennifer413 (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Video is usually a powerful way to show the difference in seats. There are many videos on the web where you can see the differences. I have a short one running on my site, on the right side, where you can see two kids crashing in different seats. Take a look at it and let me know in which seat you want to place your child.....

Thanks for posting that. I've never seen the side by side comparison in a crash test. I knew before I wanted to ERF, but now I'm even more sure.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Great that you're rfing longer than regular parents. The Swedes have amazing accident stats concerning children simply by following a fairly "boring" strategy regarding car seats. First an infant seat during the first 6-8 months or so. Then a rf seat which lasts until about 4 years of age (our seats are certified up to 55 lbs). After that a booster seat with nice side impact protection until age 10 or so. Easy, simple, and incredibly effective. That's the main reason why very few kids die in traffic each year. If I remember correctly, it's less than 10 annually.

Nice weekend


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

I only RF #1 and 2 to 20 lbs (about 18 mo because I did not know better.
#3 I had planned to RF to the limit (in a BLVD), but at 2.5, she decided she wanted to be FF to see the DVD player better (she had to bend her neck to see it, she sat right under it), and actually cried and screamed until she vomited EVER TIME she was in the carseat RF. We live at least 1.5 drive from anywhere and often a 3 hour drive to get groc/go shopping so it is an all day trip. After just over a week of this, I gave in and turned her







. She was happy and stopped. She was about 25 or so lbs. She is sitting in the center seat in the 2nd row of a suburban, so she is as safe as she can be. I could not drive safely with her screaming and vomiting for hours.

BTW, DD#1 is in a bpb, #2 in a new regent, #3 in her BLVD, and #4 about to move from the snugride to the BLVD, and i do believe in ERF and harnessing and plan to keep the harnessed as long as possible and the baby RF to the limit.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Great that you're rfing longer than regular parents. The Swedes have amazing accident stats concerning children simply by following a fairly "boring" strategy regarding car seats. First an infant seat during the first 6-8 months or so. Then a rf seat which lasts until about 4 years of age (our seats are certified up to 55 lbs). After that a booster seat with nice side impact protection until age 10 or so. Easy, simple, and incredibly effective. That's the main reason why very few kids die in traffic each year. If I remember correctly, it's less than 10 annually.

Nice weekend

Are cell-phones allowed while driving? What are the speed limits like there? How many cars are on the road there? What is the overall accident rate like? I know that the awesome car seat laws have a lot to do with the low traffic death rate, but I wonder what other factors are contributing.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
Are cell-phones allowed while driving? What are the speed limits like there? How many cars are on the road there? What is the overall accident rate like? I know that the awesome car seat laws have a lot to do with the low traffic death rate, but I wonder what other factors are contributing.

I am sure there are other factors, but he's not saying there aren't accidents. In the accidents that do occur, children are hurt less often.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

DD rearfaced until she was around 18 months (her seat rearfaced until 30 lbs, and that's when she hit 30 lbs). DS2 is currently rearfacing at 31 months and 27 lbs.

I turned DS1 on his first birthday. I didn't know any better, and he was a carseat screamer - turning really helped with that. Had I known about the safety of ERF, I might have tried to keep him rearfacing longer, but I'm not sure.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Well I knew she was full of bull but during my ds's 3 yr check up I said something about how he only has 3 more pounds to go before I'd have to turn him ffing and my ped looked at me like I had broccoli growing out of my head. She told me that I should turn him around, that it wasn't safe for him to be rfing, and that if I really wanted to keep him rfing she guessed it would be ok as long as his feet weren't touching the seat back







I forgive her because she doesn't give us crap about not vaxing and because she actually is very bfing knowledgeable.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
Well I knew she was full of bull but during my ds's 3 yr check up I said something about how he only has 3 more pounds to go before I'd have to turn him ffing and my ped looked at me like I had broccoli growing out of my head. She told me that I should turn him around, that it wasn't safe for him to be rfing, and that if I really wanted to keep him rfing she guessed it would be ok as long as his feet weren't touching the seat back







I forgive her because she doesn't give us crap about not vaxing and because she actually is very bfing knowledgeable.

thats great that your dr. is good about the vax'ing and the bf'ing but you should take her some literature on the issue (there are brochures you can print out on car-seat.org). its good that YOU know better, but others dont and RF'ing is the safest and best practice for kid up to the limit of their car seat. if she is a good dr., she wont be insulted by receiving more information. there has never been a documented case of broken legs on RF'ing kids in an accident. if she is going to give advice on car seat safety, she should be giving good advice, not bad.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I am sure there are other factors, but he's not saying there aren't accidents. In the accidents that do occur, children are hurt less often.









I understand that there are accidents. Im just wondering what driving in general is like in a country that has such a low traffic accident death rat.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I am ERFing my 15 month old, 26lb DS, although I didn't my DD because I didn't know any better. I am tech now though, and I know much better! The biggest reason I hear for parents turning their kids at 1 & 20 is that they didn't know any better, the second biggest reason, from those that DO know better but decide to turn them, is that the child doesn't like it or isn't comfortable and wants to be FFing. I have heard this from people that I love and respect on every other issue, but stubbornly cling to the notion that their child "wants" to be forward facing.

Although, I do see plenty of parents who will turn them around once they know better. I only really push it until 18 months or so at seat checks, after that, when a child has been FFing for 6 months or longer, I seem to run a fine line between parents thinking I am nuts and tossing all of my advice out, and providing real education that they will use. I do add the "your child could still be rear facing at their weight, it is the AAP recomendation that children stay rear facing to the max weight of their seat," line but don't really push it. When you see the 22 lb 2 yo in a backless booster, my first goal is to get that child into a harness, that their child could be rear facing is not on the radar at that point, you know?


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

I intend to ERF, but some of my family has turned their babes early. By early I mean before 1yr/20lbs (illegal in this state). The most common reason for doing it with kids that young seems to be that it's easier to get them in and out. I'm fairly certain they'll think I'm nuts if I end up showing up with a RF 3yo, but I would if she is small enough (unlikely)


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep. DS is 27 pounds and just turned 2 and is short. We will just see how fast he grows those last 8 pounds.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Yes I will ERF my dd! Why wouldn't you after seeing crash tests and reading all the info?!

A coworker of mine has a son about 14 months old who has already been turned to face front. I showed her the crash test video of front facing verses rear facing and all the facts that says it's safer to RF. She said that she understands it's safer but that her son would be too uncomfortable riding RF with his legs all squished...ya know, in case they go on a long car ride or something







Things that make you go hmmmm.....


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## Katzchen (Aug 13, 2007)

We are. My older son is 24 months and 25 pounds. He will stay rear facing until he hits the height limit on the seat (or by the weight limit on the off chance that he gains 10 lbs before he grows three inches.) We plan to ERF our 6 month old as well.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katzchen* 
We are. My older son is 24 months and 25 pounds. He will stay rear facing until he hits the height limit on the seat (or by the weight limit on the off chance that he gains 10 lbs before he grows three inches.) We plan to ERF our 6 month old as well.

What seat do you have? Many seats are outgrown *rf* by weight before height.

-Angela


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

I just clicked on this thread randomly wondering what ERF stood for.

We bought the Graco SafeSeat (good up to 30 in. / 32 lbs.) so that we could keep DD rear facing as long as possible (assuming that might get us at least until 12 months compared to smaller buckets, and maybe 16 or even 18 months). I did not know you could get other seats that will accommodate an older toddler rear-facing. Can someone say or PM me what type of seat we should be asking for her 1 year b-day that will work for this? We were planning on asking MIL for a 2-in-1 (toddler to booster seat) like this http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...#prod_prodinfo ... should we be looking for a 3-in-1 instead???

Thanks!!!


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## cognito (Nov 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyleigh33* 
I just clicked on this thread randomly wondering what ERF stood for.

We bought the Graco SafeSeat (good up to 30 in. / 32 lbs.) so that we could keep DD rear facing as long as possible (assuming that might get us at least until 12 months compared to smaller buckets, and maybe 16 or even 18 months). I did not know you could get other seats that will accommodate an older toddler rear-facing. Can someone say or PM me what type of seat we should be asking for her 1 year b-day that will work for this? We were planning on asking MIL for a 2-in-1 (toddler to booster seat) like this http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...#prod_prodinfo ... should we be looking for a 3-in-1 instead???

Thanks!!!

I would look for a convertible carseat instead & worry about the booster much later. There are seats that have tall shells the RF to 35# & then will FF to a higher weight ranging from 50-65#. That could keep your LO in a 5pt harness to age 5 or so. Maybe something like the Evenflo Triumph Advance.

I have a 3-in-1 & like it, but the harness only goes to 40# & the harness slots aren't very high. The one you posted is similar, but doesn't RF.

I hope that helps. I'm sure if you started a thread asking for ERF help & posted a budget & type of car that you'll get lots more help.

I just saw that you're in Canada, that will make a difference. I was posting stats for US seats & things are different in Canada. Make sure you include that info too. There are still some good options up there, just nat as many.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
What seat do you have? Many seats are outgrown *rf* by weight before height.

-Angela

This is true of the taller-shelled seats (Britax, Radia, EFTA) but most others are outgrown by height first


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Neither a 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 would be a good choice. As the pp mentioned you want a good high weight convertible.

My top choices would be, in order:

britax boulevard
britax marathon
radian

-Angela


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
Well I knew she was full of bull but during my ds's 3 yr check up I said something about how he only has 3 more pounds to go before I'd have to turn him ffing and my ped looked at me like I had broccoli growing out of my head. She told me that I should turn him around, that it wasn't safe for him to be rfing, and that if I really wanted to keep him rfing she guessed it would be ok as long as his feet weren't touching the seat back







I forgive her because she doesn't give us crap about not vaxing and because she actually is very bfing knowledgeable.

HEY you're here too - Hi!


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks cognito & angela. I know both those Britax seats are available at the baby store I get my cloth dipes from ... I will double check that they have the same (or very similar) weight and height limitations for RF here as they do in the U.S. before choosing.

Wow, I can't believe I've been lurking around the MDC all this time and never come across this before. I saw forward facing at 1 as something of a rite of passage that everyone just did... it never even occurred to me there might be a better, safer way.


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

In canada, there are no new seats on the market that rf past 30lbs.









I would also check out the evenflo triumph advance, as it has high top slots and is cheaper than the marathon...however, it does not FF past 48lbs.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyleigh33* 
Thanks cognito & angela. I know both those Britax seats are available at the baby store I get my cloth dipes from ... I will double check that they have the same (or very similar) weight and height limitations for RF here as they do in the U.S. before choosing.

Wow, I can't believe I've been lurking around the MDC all this time and never come across this before. I saw forward facing at 1 as something of a rite of passage that everyone just did... it never even occurred to me there might be a better, safer way.









im not in Canada but i thought i saw that some higher RF'ing seats were going to become available in Canada soon.

and alot of parents are like that...b/c thats what they are told by others.







Glad you found out.


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