# Child safety question--is this extreme?



## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

I teach private music lessons. One of my students is 15 years old, and I thought it was interesting that he _always_ calls to get a ride home from a family member, even though he lives less than two blocks away from my house. I just figured it was a matter of a teen not wanting to have to put the effort into walking, and thought it was nice of his family to accomodate him. (My mom made me walk a lot further than that to piano lessons when I was a kid...it wasn't quite "up hill both ways in the snow" but I sure felt that way at times.) Anyway, I casually mentioned something about it to the student's mom, and she told me that it is her own policy for her kids. They are not to walk anywhere alone. I was quite taken aback. This is a teenage boy we're talking about, not a little child. He could literally walk to his house in less time than it takes for him to call for a ride and have them show up to get him. We live in a quiet neighborhood in a fairly small town.

His mother's reasoning is that the world just isn't like it used to be years ago, and she's just not willing to take the chance of something happening. I could see where she was coming from, and I thought to myself that yes, the fear of kidnapping is one that she can pretty well take off her mind by controlling the situation in this way. (Not entirely of course, because her kids still have to be at school every day...)

But... I have to wonder if there aren't other ramifications of this that might not be so positive. I know there is always a chance that something bad could happen to one of our kids, and I know it is good to take necessary and reasonable precautions to keep them safe. But this seems really extreme to me. I feel like part of my job as a mother is to gradually help my children prepare for eventually living on their own, and part of doing that is to give them increasing levels of responsibility and independence as they get older. I'm definitely not talking about teaching babies to self-soothe or anything like that. But I wonder if it would be too sheltering to insist that a teenager could not even walk home a couple of blocks and if that could somehow have some negative effects of a kid who is preparing for adulthood in just a few years. Would my own kids be ready to go to college and be on their own if they'd never even been allowed to walk a few blocks in broad daylight?

I hope this doesn't come across as being totally critical of the mom. She is a great mom--in fact, there are many things I admire about her parenting and would hope to emulate in my own home. I'm more just trying to understand her POV. My ds is only 4, and I struggle with knowing how much independence to give him. I used to let him walk two doors down to his friend's by himself, and recently decided that wasn't such a good idea, so I now stand outside and watch to make sure he gets there safely. I thought I was one of the more protective parents in the neighborhood until I talked to my student's mom. They're her kids, and it's her business, but I was intrigued with her viewpoint.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

Maybe there was an incident in the mother's life that caused her to be so cautious?

But, if not, I do think it is a bit extreme myself. I almost think small towns can be safer because everyone knows everyone else. In my small town growing up you couldn't do anything without someone seeing your dad up at the gas station and telling on you!

Kinda off topic, but why do they drive the 2 blocks instead of walk to get him? It seems like a waste of gas.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I think it's VERY extreme. And I think it's unhealthy. We're not talking about a 7 year old here, we're talking about a kid who is going to be out in the world working or going to school in three or four years. My parents seriously are control freaks to the extent of pathology and they kept me on a very short leash out of "protectiveness." People are shocked when they hear how little I was allowed to do, even at 17 years old! BUT...even THEY let me go to my violin lessons alone. And it was hardly next door...I had to walk a quarter mile to a bus stop, ride two buses, and walk another quarter mile to the teacher's door!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Definitely extreme, and possibly damaging to the young man. Heck, PROBABLY damaging to the young man


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

Regardless of whether I think it's extreme, who are we to judge a mama's parenting? We have no idea about her background, her life experiences or her personal use of 'the gift'. The world can be a scary place to someone who consumes a lot of sensational news, and I would never pass judgement on another family trying their best to ensure their kids' safety.

FWIW, I grew up in a violent country where we could not play in our own backyards without an adult watching, forget walking 2 blocks. Familes live in gated communites, hire guards, etc. etc. My parents brought this mentality to our new (safer) country and I do not begrudge them.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Very extreme, and not good for the teenager (almost an adult) at all.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I have a 15 yo ds and yes that does seem extreme. A 15 yo is 3 years away from being a legal adult, and while the world is a different place than it was years ago, the kid still needs to get comfortable in it. Just my 2 cents.

Shay


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## lifescholar (Nov 26, 2006)

Yeah, my mom was (is) extremely controlling and super over-protective, but my sister and I walked to school together when we were 9 and 10! And we lived in a quiet neighbourhood, but in a large city.

By 15, I could take the bus with my friends, etc. Although my mom's rules were so strict that I really wasn't able to go out much.

Now, if it was DARK when this kid's lessons are over, I could totally understand them picking him up, but if not, yeah, I could imagine that it might make him OVER cautious and paranoid.

But, maybe this mom has a good reason....I mean, after all, I know it's going to take me a LOT of effort to allow my son to go anywhere by himself...if I could, I'd take him everywhere until he's 10! lol But, his own well-being has to prevail, not my own needs to keep him safe...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

It does seem extreme to me. I read Protecting the Gift this week and from his perspective, she'd be better off equipping him to deal with situations that may come up (but probably won't) than not giving him those skills.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

In my home town THREE teenagers, not one, THREE were assaulted by a man who jumped out of the bushes as they walked home, during the day, on a fairly busy road. One of the teenagers ended up with a stab wound in her leg. It was because they were all together that something worse didn't end up happening. And this was a "nice quiet suburb", too.

So yeah, I can totally see where she is coming from. And as a person who was chased down by a weirdo myself (he hopped out of his car and came after me, and I ran through a neighbors yard and hopped the fence, with a BROKEN foot) I will probably be the same way with my child.

People say that "statistically" a kidnapping or some other weirdo coming after you isn't likely to happen, but I've learned from experience that when you say "it's not likely to happen to me" that it will bite you in the ass. HARD. So nope, my kids probably won't walk much. Which is a shame, because I have some pretty awesome memories of us walking to and from school. I don't know, I guess it depends on where we end up living. Here? I doubt it.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
In my home town THREE teenagers, not one, THREE were assaulted by a man who jumped out of the bushes as they walked home, during the day, on a fairly busy road. One of the teenagers ended up with a stab wound in her leg. It was because they were all together that something worse didn't end up happening. And this was a "nice quiet suburb", too.

So yeah, I can totally see where she is coming from. And as a person who was chased down by a weirdo myself (he hopped out of his car and came after me, and I ran through a neighbors yard and hopped the fence, with a BROKEN foot) I will probably be the same way with my child.

People say that "statistically" a kidnapping or some other weirdo coming after you isn't likely to happen, but I've learned from experience that when you say "it's not likely to happen to me" that it will bite you in the ass. HARD. So nope, my kids probably won't walk much. Which is a shame, because I have some pretty awesome memories of us walking to and from school. I don't know, I guess it depends on where we end up living. Here? I doubt it.


I hear you and it most certainly sucks that the world is a far more dangerous place but would it not be more shocking for a kid to go from being totally sheltered to at 18, now you are an adult, off to college you go? To me there has to be a transition, its kind of like when you have sons at a certain point you let them go to the public bathroom alone.

Like I said earlier I have a 15 yo son and the world is scary but he is making the transition from child to young adult. In less than a year (350 days







but whose counting) he will be able to legally drive a car. Yikes that scares me, he is in HS and he has told me some things about HS that scares me but I know I cannot let my fears guide things.

Shay


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Why can't she walk to pick him up? Or stand on the porch and watch for him. It sounds like an extreme waste of fossil fuels as well. It reminds me of that old Steve Martin and Sarah Jessica Parker movie ...LA Story...where he gets in his car and drives 6 feet.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

At some point, we have to give our kids the skills to deal with things on their own. Will this kid be 30 and still have his mom coming to pick him up? I'm not saying she should treat him like an adult RIGHT NOW, but you have to start allowing freedom and responsibility at some point, and that means allowing risk. In a year or two he could be driving a car - much riskier IMHO than walking 2 blocks in broad daylight. Will she let him do that?

Life is risk. I would rather give my kids tools and strategies than try to shelter them their entire lives, which you just cannot do.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Is the kid in question developmentally delayed? Does he have a history of running away or behavior that would lead her to not trust him on the walk home?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Getz* 
Maybe there was an incident in the mother's life that caused her to be so cautious?

But, if not, I do think it is a bit extreme myself. I almost think small towns can be safer because everyone knows everyone else. In my small town growing up you couldn't do anything without someone seeing your dad up at the gas station and telling on you!

Kinda off topic, but why do they drive the 2 blocks instead of walk to get him? It seems like a waste of gas.

Exactly what I was thinking.


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## sarah0404 (May 28, 2006)

There was a study in the news just this week here in the UK about the same thing. It turns out more children are killed by cars than killed by weirdos. And of the children who were murdered the majority were killed by family members, or people who the family had allowed access to their children. Only a tiny percent were killed by strangers. So really the risk of something happening to your child is absolutly tiny. But still... everytime I hear on the news about a missing child... it makes me very uncomfortable about letting my children go out anywhere without me.

I think by 15 though I wouldn't be picking them up from somewhere so close by. But then again I'm 25 and my dad will still come and pick me up at 3am to make sure I get home safely!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RainCoastMama* 
Regardless of whether I think it's extreme, who are we to judge a mama's parenting? We have no idea about her background, her life experiences or her personal use of 'the gift'. The world can be a scary place to someone who consumes a lot of sensational news, and I would never pass judgement on another family trying their best to ensure their kids' safety.


I completely agree with this.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
In my home town THREE teenagers, not one, THREE were assaulted by a man who jumped out of the bushes as they walked home, during the day, on a fairly busy road. One of the teenagers ended up with a stab wound in her leg. It was because they were all together that something worse didn't end up happening. And this was a "nice quiet suburb", too.

So yeah, I can totally see where she is coming from. And as a person who was chased down by a weirdo myself (he hopped out of his car and came after me, and I ran through a neighbors yard and hopped the fence, with a BROKEN foot) I will probably be the same way with my child.

People say that "statistically" a kidnapping or some other weirdo coming after you isn't likely to happen, but I've learned from experience that when you say "it's not likely to happen to me" that it will bite you in the ass. HARD. So nope, my kids probably won't walk much. Which is a shame, because I have some pretty awesome memories of us walking to and from school. I don't know, I guess it depends on where we end up living. Here? I doubt it.

I agree.

OP, no I do not think his Mom coming to pick him up at Age 15 is extreme...ESPECIALLY in this day and age.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, it would seem extreme for me and my family, but I can see situations where not knowing the whole story could be an issue. For example, I know one family where the father leaves work early each day to retreive his 17 YO from school and supervise her for the remainder of the afternoon. Why? Because she has a history with drugs and this way she can't go back to that. Since many kidnappings are actually parents in custody battles, perhaps she has an over-the-top ex that she is worried about. Or maybe someone in the family does something to make the family at risk for harm. We rarely see the whole picture, so I would assume there is more there than meets the eye.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

I just want to clarify that I did not start this thread just to be judgmental. I posted about this situation because it is something that makes me examine my own views of child safety, and because I wanted opinions on the larger questions of balancing concern for safety with the need to help children develop into confident, responsible adults, which to me means allowing room for some degree of risk. I think that is a valid question for discussion. Sorry if I did not make my intentions clear enough.

phathui5 wrote:

Quote:

Is the kid in question developmentally delayed? Does he have a history of running away or behavior that would lead her to not trust him on the walk home?
No to all of the above. He is academically and musically gifted, and involved in many activites and projects at the local high school. He is what many would call a really, really "good" kid, for lack of a better word...mature for his age, responsible, etc. His mother says this is her rule for all her kids (there are five of them).

Several posters mentioned the possibility that the mom had an experience that led her to this kind of caution, and I think that is a possibility, even though she did not mention anything.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarah0404* 
There was a study in the news just this week here in the UK about the same thing. It turns out more children are killed by cars than killed by weirdos. And of the children who were murdered the majority were killed by family members, or people who the family had allowed access to their children. Only a tiny percent were killed by strangers. So really the risk of something happening to your child is absolutly tiny. But still... everytime I hear on the news about a missing child... it makes me very uncomfortable about letting my children go out anywhere without me.

Statistically, it's the same here in the US - driving our kids somewhere is BY FAR the most dangerous thing any of us do on a daily basis. I don't understand the level of fear that some people have, but I wouldn't judge another mom without knowing her - maybe something did happen to her, maybe she has someone in her life who's unstable (like a crazy ex), there could be lots of reasons she feels the need to be overly protective.

The extreme waste of gas does kind of bug me, though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I agree.

OP, no I do not think his Mom coming to pick him up at Age 15 is extreme...ESPECIALLY in this day and age.

What day and age? The one where we here about _all_ the weirdos, as opposed to only hearing about the locals?

My _grandmother_ was assaulted as she walked home at the age of 16...that would have been...hmm...1925 or thereabouts? Nobody knew about it, and it didn't make the papers - and she did manage to fight the guy off.

My mom was assaulted in about 1960. She also managed to get loose, and nobody knew about it, and it wasn't splashed all over the papers.

We had a sicko kidnapping teenagers and killing them when I was about 12. It was all over the news here, and his name still makes locals cringe. But...I'm not sure that people on the other side of the country knew about him.

This stuff has been going on forever. We hear all about it now. Our society wallows in it. But, it's not new.

I can't even imagine requiring ds1 to call me to pick him up from two blocks away. There's no way I'd be taking a car out and wasting all that gas. I suppose I could walk over and pick him up, but I'm not sure what difference my presence would make if someone decided to jump us.

I think this is extreme, and it doesn't sound healthy. As many people have pointed out, this boy's less than a year from being able to drive, and only three years from going off to college or getting a job. I think three years is an awfully short time to switch gears from "I can't walk two blocks home by myself" to dealing with all the various situations that an adult can find themselves in.

With respect to the possibility that there's something else going on (eg. drugs, an ex, etc.), that's always a possibility, but the OP did say:

Quote:

His mother's reasoning is that the world just isn't like it used to be years ago, and she's just not willing to take the chance of something happening.
That doesn't sound like there are any specific problems going on. The mom is just terrified of the world and what it might do to her son. Personally, I'm more afraid of what could happen to ds1 at school than I've ever been about what might happen on his way to and from.


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## maryeliz (Oct 27, 2005)

I would find this extreme under normal circumstances, but I also think everyone needs to do their own cost/benefit analysis.

One thing I do take issue with: the statement that the world is more dangerous today. Since when exactly? Since the 1970s when I was a kid? Doubtful. Since the 1670s? Maybe, but there have always been criminals, abusers, and generally bad people around. There are some new threats, in the past abusers couldn't troll for kids on the internet and the international sex trade in children from poor countries has increased in the past few decades. But if you read old newspapers, you'll find that crimes against children are an old and common problem. And that coverage probably represents and undercounting because in the past people were less likely to report sex crimes against children.

All that said, I think you could take that information and make two very different arguements. One that children have always been endangered so you have to always keep them close. And my own belief that children had always been endangered so you have to do your best to prepare them for the world.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What day and age?

I knew that would come up...I don't have the time to get into a debate on whether or not the world is more dangerous today than it was 50-100 years ago.

I can think of thousands of incidents that have occurred just in the last 10-20years that would have been unheard of in our grandparents' age.

One example- Schools. You all don't think schools are more dangerous today than they were 10-20 years ago?

If not, give me a day and I'll send you a couple of disturbing school violence youtube videos that would leave you breathless....

At least in my region, every week there is some sort of school shooting or gang violence etc..

Now you have students dressing up in black trench coates with an aim "to kill as many people as you can"

Or more recently (yesterday) a Man open firing in Utah Mall.

Also more recently, what 2 or 3 months ago? A man open firing on an Amish community killing innocent kids...

Tell me you heard about that "back in the day"

Again, Schools is just one example. Which is why alot of parents *in my region* are choosing to Homeschool (not the #1 Reason, but certainly A reason).


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Definitely extreme, and possibly damaging to the young man. Heck, PROBABLY damaging to the young man


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I've shared my seemingly overprotective views here on MDC before, but IMO that's for little children.

Does she not realize he can leave home in 3 years? What will he do then? Is a college campus really safer than his own neighborhood?

IMO if she so fears for her children's safety, she could enroll them in karate and self-defense classes to keep themselves safe, in Red Cross classes (like babysitting, first aid, CPR) to give them skills to keep self and others safe), and equip them with cell phones and maybe mace. Then let 'em go.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This stuff has been going on forever. We hear all about it now. Our society wallows in it. But, it's not new.

I totally agree with this. With the invention of the TV and the proliferation of channels, especially news channels, they need to have something to talk about. And they have learned that these type of stories get viewership.

Back to the original question, yes, I do think that she is being too extreme. We let my DH's 14 year old daughter walk 1/2 mile to get to our swimming pool and never even blinked an eye.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I'd say a compromise is in order; ie. have him call and say I'm heading home now. Then, she can keep an eye out for him. Have him carry a cell phone.

We had a teenaged girl kidnapped and killed while waiting at her bus stop in the morning. It can happen.

It's a tough call & I really can't judge over protective Moms b/c I'm not one and it's scary either way.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I was listening to an NPR article on obesity and they sited fear of walking to school and in our neighborhoods as part of the obesity problem in the US. I thought that was an interesting point when dealing with the "better safe than sorry" way of thinking that seems so wrong to me when it comes to this kind of thing.

IMO, and having nothing to do with this particular parent because I agree that there might be something going on with that family that we don't know about (maybe bullying in the neighborhood or something that you just don't talk to your music teacher about, it's best to think about the whole package.

When we don't let kids walk around and when we don't walk around as a family, the streets are emptier. Emptier streets have fewer eyes around, fewer people checking out what's going on (because it's not "our kid" out there) and they're more difficult to police. In a sense dangerous streets become a self fulfilling prophecy. JMO.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Yes I think it is extreme behavior but i also think that this extreme is becoming normal.

our cars give us such a sense of saftey don't they. I refuse to live my life ocked into my metal box of peace and comfort and I erfuse to allow my children to do so (much less force them.) I walk too and from work. its 2 miles. I get off between 10:00 PM and midnight. I live in a rough part of town. I am not scared in the slightest. and I get no end fo grief about it. but i refuse to live my life scared of "what if". There just came a point where I decided what i was missing by always tucking myself safely away was worth the risk of a little less safety. my kids climb trees and go barefoot and go sledding on the slickest most areodynamic object they can find or build. I am not constantly chasing them to the bathroom to wash thier hands and we are firm believers in the 10 second rule. Life is just to short to be scared that there is a criminal, accident or germ waiting to nab you around every corner.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I knew that would come up...I don't have the time to get into a debate on whether or not the world is more dangerous today than it was 50-100 years ago.

I can think of thousands of incidents that have occurred just in the last 10-20years that would have been unheard of in our grandparents' age.

One example- Schools. You all don't think schools are more dangerous today than they were 10-20 years ago?

If not, give me a day and I'll send you a couple of disturbing school violence youtube videos that would leave you breathless....

At least in my region, every week there is some sort of school shooting or gang violence etc..

Now you have students dressing up in black trench coates with an aim "to kill as many people as you can"

Or more recently (yesterday) a Man open firing in Utah Mall.

Also more recently, what 2 or 3 months ago? A man open firing on an Amish community killing innocent kids...

Tell me you heard about that "back in the day"

Again, Schools is just one example. Which is why alot of parents *in my region* are choosing to Homeschool (not the #1 Reason, but certainly A reason).

I have no doubt that schools are more dangerous than they used to be. Of course, there was a whole lot more going on than was acknowledged years ago, too. There was violence going on in my school - mostly an upper-middle class student population - 25 years ago. Guns? Not so much - but violence - lots of it.

If you're in an area where drive-by shootings are common, I can see being afraid to let your 15-year-old walk two blocks. But, violence within the schools is, imo, a totally different cultural phenomenon.

The things you're talking about are not the same as weirdos and kidnappers. The gun violence thing is a totally separate issue, and I'm not sure what good a car is with respect to _any_ of the incidents you listed. If somebody's going to gun people down, he can do it through a windshield just as easily as not.

Somebody else made the point about obesity. This is a real concern. Do I think it makes sense to teach my son that he needs a car to go two blocks (whatever the reasoning) because there's a _very_ small chance that something might happen to him while he's walking along the street? No - I don't. I don't want him to be sedentary and obese because he's afraid to outside. I don't think it makes sense to greatly increase his risk of heart disease or diabetes because I'm afraid that there _might_ be some pervert or sadist lurking in the area. My son gets around mostly on his feet...just like I always have.

Where's the line? If a kid can't walk two blocks home at 15, can he walk around on campus at 18?


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

You know, the more I think about it the more I think pp must have been right.

There is probably a crazy ex somewhere, or an incident within the family that accounts for this. 15 is so old for that kind of handholding.

I'd feel inclined to press mom a little, to see if she is aware of local services and help. Not sure how to tactfully do that...but it sounds like she won't even walk in the neighborhood, herself, with the kids.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

nak - yes it's extreme. i think fear about 'stranger danger' far outstrips the actual risk, and i think there is a huge downside that we fail to acknowledge.

as they say, paranoia will destroy ya.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

It's very extreme and I think almost certainly damaging to the young man, not only in his skills for dealing with the world but just for having the privacy to think and grow on his own.

She defnitely has a right to give whatever story she wants, and I think it is entirely possible that there is a more plausible reason that she is not being real specific about, but if not, then yeah, way too extreme to be safe.

And, to quote an MDC-er of my acquaintance, judgement is not always bad. Absent a better explanation, this is just so damaging on so many levels.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I wonder if those folks who don't see this as extreme have teenagers? I do and man at 15, kids are anxious to start gaining freedoms. I think how my son likes to go to the mall, etc.

It would seem to me that the better thing is to give this boy a cell phone and have him call when he is leaving and connect that way rather than driving to pick him up.

Shay


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

The really crappy thing about this kind of paranoia becoming mainstream is that it sets a standard for the rest of us. That is, if I fail to be as paranoid about my 15 year old (when she gets to that age) then I am likely to get branded as a careless and uncaring mother, "asking for trouble."

That and yes yes yes it makes my head explode thinking of the wasted fossil fuel, ARGH! And the loss to that poor kid of fresh air and freedom. No one should have to live in a prison of paranoia. Trust me, with my parents, I know all about it. And I even had more freedom that this kid.

We walk and take public transit everywhere. It's safe. It really is. Sometimes there are creepy guys, but there's also a driver with a direct radio to police. And the walks are so invigorating for mind, body, and spirit. It's a wonderful way to live. It's just not scary. I find freeway driving FAR scarier.

Whoever said if you're worried, teach your kid self-defense was right on, IMHO.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I wonder if those folks who don't see this as extreme have teenagers? I do and man at 15, kids are anxious to start gaining freedoms. I think how my son likes to go to the mall, etc.

It would seem to me that the better thing is to give this boy a cell phone and have him call when he is leaving and connect that way rather than driving to pick him up.

Shay

I agree. My soon to be 13 yr old would feel infantalized and humiliated if I treated her as though she was not capable of getting home by herself from 2 blocks away. I would feel that I was failing to meet her needs if she did not feel capable herself of doing so! My job as a parent is to help my children grow up, not treat them as small children when they are no longer small.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
The really crappy thing about this kind of paranoia becoming mainstream is that it sets a standard for the rest of us. That is, if I fail to be as paranoid about my 15 year old (when she gets to that age) then I am likely to get branded as a careless and uncaring mother, "asking for trouble."

Yes. This is the very truly scary thing about it.

Quote:

And the walks are so invigorating for mind, body, and spirit. It's a wonderful way to live. It's just not scary. I find freeway driving FAR scarier.
TOTALLY!!!! And I'm sure statistically it is much more dangerous. But we don't get paranoid about the danger of driving at super fast speeds, because we are enculturated (is that a word?) to view it as a risk worth taking, a risk everyone takes. Those who won't are deemed paranoid.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
We walk and take public transit everywhere. It's safe. It really is. Sometimes there are creepy guys, but there's also a driver with a direct radio to police. And the walks are so invigorating for mind, body, and spirit. It's a wonderful way to live. It's just not scary. I find freeway driving FAR scarier.









:

I find driving to be much scarier than walking...and I'm far more nervous about having my kids in a vehicle than I am when ds1 is out walking around by himself.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Whoever said if you're worried, teach your kid self-defense was right on, IMHO.

...and, again







:

DS1 is about an inch and a half taller than I am. He weighs 150 pounds (not fat). He's taken two yaers of Tae Kwon Do. Honestly, I think he's safer walking around by himself than I am.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I hear you and it most certainly sucks that the world is a far more dangerous place but would it not be more shocking for a kid to go from being totally sheltered to at 18, now you are an adult, off to college you go? To me there has to be a transition, its kind of like when you have sons at a certain point you let them go to the public bathroom alone.

Well, I wouldn't want her walking alone in an unsafe neighborhood or at night even in college. LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I wonder if those folks who don't see this as extreme have teenagers?p

Nope. She's only 11 months.







My opinion is mostly hypothetical at this point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
That and yes yes yes it makes my head explode thinking of the wasted fossil fuel, ARGH! And the loss to that poor kid of fresh air and freedom.

I totally hear you there. I really do! Where I live now is way more unsafe then where I grew up. We walked too and from school. We played in the bushes behind the house, and down at the pond and in the creek. I LIVED outside as a kid, and it breaks my heart that my daughter may not have the same opportunities.

Even though we live in a "nice" neighborhood (with expensive homes, and nice restaurants, and nice shops near by, etc etc) it is just not safe here. In the 2 years we have lived here there has been one house broken into, one bank robber shoot himself in a stand off in his car at the end of the street, another thief hid in a neighbors garage at the other end of the street after robbing a Chinese food restaurant (and the police helicopter nearly landed in our backyard!), one road rage incident where the guy pulled my neighbor out and beat him up for rolling through a stop sign, and another woman under the influence who was running from police was hiding on our back porch. OUR back porch!

Plus, people often cut through our neighborhood to avoid getting stuck at the draw bridge, so we get a lot of non-locals who are in a hurry who do 40mph instead of the listed 15. It's a windy road with lots of blind corners and no side walks. I have to walk on the lawns in order to feel safe not getting hit by a car. I DON'T feel safe walking in this neighborhood!

I'm not going to play the statistics game, because in this case, I KNOW our neighborhood is not safe. *I*, as an adult, don't like to walk here.

It other areas, with different traffic patterns, and different demographics, and different populations, it might not be so extreme (and boy do I envy those of you who live 'there'). But I think it is a little unfair to say that this is extreme across the board, and that those of use who would do something similar are living in a state of paranoia and fear.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

The more I think of this, the more angry I become.

This child is not being taught any basic life skills in regards to being safe in public!! This is so scary. He will be going to college in a couple of years and without practicing living how will he survive on his own without his mother there to run interference for him?

I am totally not judging the mom, as everyone else explained, she might have had some trauma or something, but, man, she is not helping him.

My stepfather had 2 children when he married my mom. Their mother had died when my sister was 2 and my brother 5. Because of this, he always felt the need to, protect them and shield them from pain because of how awful it was that their mom died.

Fast forward, my sister is now 23 years old. A year ago, she asked my stepdad for stamps and he was out. He told her she needed to buy her own, _she did not know where to buy stamps_. My parents recently moved to Florida from Jersey. My sister got a flat tire on her car. She called my stepdad from the side of the road asking for help. _She didn't know who to call or what to do._ And last month she went to visit them. They dropped her off at the airport and went home. They received a call from her on her cell, crying because her flight was delayed and _she didn't know what to do_. My mom had to suggest that she go get a magazine to pass the time, or maybe go get something to eat in the terminal. She has NO life skills, none. She is of normal intelligence. Its just so sad.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

DS1 is about an inch and a half taller than I am. He weighs 150 pounds (not fat). He's taken two yaers of Tae Kwon Do. Honestly, I think he's safer walking around by himself than I am.

There's another thought. A 15 yr old boy is likely to be as big as if not bigger than most adult women. I guess the giant fume-belching vehicle is really the only "protection," there.

Also, whatever the risk of "stranger danger," you don't often hear of nearly grown young men getting nabbed. More like 12 year old girls and grade school boys.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I don't think kidnapping is the only risk. At least it's not for me. While the "weirdness" factor seems to be sky high in our neighborhood lately, I'm also worried about the idiots who race down our quiet street instead of just waiting for the bridge.







:

Our neighbor's mother (and long time friends of my husband's family) was killed by being hit by a car just around the corner from here. There are so many nice shops on the other side of the bridge, but it's just not safe to walk over it. I think they have actually officially closed it to pedestrians now. It would take me 5 minutes to walk there, and about 15 to drive. It sucks, it really does.

I really cannot wait until we move. I *hate* it here for all the reasons I've stated.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

So for those who think this is OK, where do you draw the line? And how do you plan on getting your kid to the point where they can be an independent adult? Is it at some point after the age of 15 when they can start taking very, very small risks like walking two blocks alone in their own neighborhood? Do you plan on allowing them to live in college dorms or their own apartment? How do you plan to protect them there?

Sounds snarky, but I really want to know!


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 

I can think of thousands of incidents that have occurred just in the last 10-20years that would have been unheard of in our grandparents' age.

_Unheard_ of, I think, needs to be understood literally here. It's not that those things happened less, but rather that people didn't hear about them because media was so different at that time.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I knew that would come up...I don't have the time to get into a debate on whether or not the world is more dangerous today than it was 50-100 years ago.

I can think of thousands of incidents that have occurred just in the last 10-20years that would have been unheard of in our grandparents' age.

One example- Schools. You all don't think schools are more dangerous today than they were 10-20 years ago?.

No, I don't. Statistics show that school violence has been steadily decreasing over the last 10-15 years. The violent crime rate in schools is less than half of what it was in 1994. Check out the statistics in this report:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=3&gl=us

Obviously there have been several mass shootings at schools which have garnered enormous amounts of media attention. But even the couple of years after Columbine, when there were a bunch of copycat shootings, had lower rates of school homicides than occurred in the early 90s - when there were no big mass shootings at all.

There are 53 million kids in public and private school in the United States. Here are the homicide numbers since 2000:

2000 - 9
2001 - 8
2002 - 2
2003 - 4
2004 - 10
2005 - 13

Even in the year with the MOST homicides, we're only talking about 13 kids out of 53 million. Yes, obviously, every death is a tragedy. I'm not saying that these deaths don't matter. But it doesn't make sense to let fear of such an extremely, extremely rare problem control our choices.

Quote:

Again, Schools is just one example.
General-population examples don't really hold true either. The rate of violent crime is much, much lower today than it was 30 years ago. All types of violent crimes are less common today than they were when most of us were kids. The Bureau of Justice has been keeping statistics on crime since 1973 - you can look at them here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/...viortrdtab.htm

In 2005, Americans suffered fewer than half as many violent crimes as they reported in 1973. They reported 1/5 as many rapes, 1/3 as many aggravated assaults, half as many simple assaults, and less than half as many armed robberies.

If you live in the United States, the world is _safer_ today than when you were a kid. But it doesn't _feel_ that way. 24-hour cable networks whip up a frenzy of crime paranoia by covering isolated incidents around the clock. Corporations rake in millions by marketing to our fear. Politicians get us agree to more and more restrictions on our liberty by telling us that they're needed to make us safe.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
So for those who think this is OK, where do you draw the line? And how do you plan on getting your kid to the point where they can be an independent adult? Is it at some point after the age of 15 when they can start taking very, very small risks like walking two blocks alone in their own neighborhood? Do you plan on allowing them to live in college dorms or their own apartment? How do you plan to protect them there?

Sounds snarky, but I really want to know!


Yes, it does sound snarky.







But honestly? I can't really answer that question as I don't have a teenager yet. But for myself I just try to calculate the risks to minimize them while still getting on with my life.

For example, when I walk to my FIL's (who lives down the street) I walk on the lawns of the people who I know won't mind, and stay on the side of the curve where cars can see me, I don't take a stroller, and I go during the day light. These are probably things I would teach my daughter WHILE still offering to pick her up at times when I think it would be safer (times when the bridge is open, rush hour, dark, etc).

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that 15 year old should never be allowed to walk anywhere and that I will ALWAYS drive my daughter, even just a few blocks away. But, I can understand where this mother is coming from having had two close-to-home incidents in my life, not to mention a neighborhood that has gone wackadoo. LOL


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

See I really think the bogeyman is an internal thing, a fear thing, a being psyched out by fearmongering culture thing. Like Rivka pointed out, the stats don't bear out the level of fear that is being described here. And the things I am hearing given as examples of "safety" don't make much of a difference. Like walking through people's lawns...you know, the monsterassed vehicles we depend on to keep us "safe" can plow right through a yard or up a sidewalk. Especially if the driver is drunk or speeding or both. I'm not sure what the stroller has to do with safety, unless you think that a stroller would slow you down if you had to maneuver? Daylight does offer better visibility, but a better bet if you're worried about being seen would be reflective clothing, even in daylight, given that you live in a climate similarly murky to my own.

But at some point it all seems ridiculous to me because while yes, I do get frustrated with drivers who think stopping for crosswalks is optional, I've been hoofing it every day of my life for the last 11 years and...I'm here. And I'd rather live in a world where walking is feasible than in a world where everyone is hunkered down behind their alarm systems in their suburban assault vehicles driving three parking spots down to the laundry room (my old neighbors did that.) And the simple fact of the matter is, we can't have it both ways. We can't cater to these irrational fears AND have a world that is safe for pedestrians. Because catering means not walking, and not walking means no infrastructure, and no infrastructure means it gets less and less feasible to do anything but get in your Cadillac Escalade and gun it four feet to the mailbox.

I realize everyone has a different "comfort level" but there is a point at which it becomes objectively ridiculous. Crime's down, car fatalities are up (car vs car, not car vs ped or car vs bus.) Getting in a car to be "safe" makes no objective sense. Being afraid of walking two blocks in your own neighborhood makes no sense. And catering to the fear of the unlikely hurts our society and our communities and our young people.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I don't really know what to say. At one time I would be up for and interested in this debate, but I'm just not into it. LOL.

I have been assaulted, 3 friends of mine have been assaulted, a friend of our family's is dead, and there have been several scary crime-related incidents in our neighborhood in the past 2 years. When a police helicopter is hovering in your backyard and then you hear gun shots as a bank robber blows his brain out at the end of the street, or you find out a woman is hiding on your porch, or you're BBQ'ing and see a guy running through your yard being chased by police officers, things change. Your comfort level changes. I am not comfortable here. In Canada where I grew up? Much more so. Here? Nope.

My fears are not born from a fear mongering culture. My fears stem from MY life experiences. Things that have happened right here. On my street. In my neighborhood. I am not basing my hypotheticals on 'what ifs'. I am basing them on stuff that has actually happened, and probably will happen again.

And I'll repeat myself again - I am NOT saying that a 15 year old should never walk or have any freedom or never be trusted or never learn to hack it in the real world. Just that, based on my EXPERIENCES, I can understand where this mother is coming from.

I'm out.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I personally would probably let DS walk home at that age and distance, but I don't see the big deal either way. I can't see it doing any damage to the kid if he's not walking home. He's only 15. I mean these days, lots of parents don't care at all about their kids. I'm not going to judge a mom that's trying to protect her kids.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I've been assaulted too. I'm not going to say how many times. Every single time was inside a "safe" building like a school or a home, though.

I can have compassion for paranoid people without thinking what they are doing is good for their kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I personally would probably let DS walk home at that age and distance, but I don't see the big deal either way. I can't see it doing any damage to the kid if he's not walking home. *He's only 15.* I mean these days, lots of parents don't care at all about their kids. I'm not going to judge a mom that's trying to protect her kids.

"Only" 15? We're talking about a 15-year-old being expected to call home for a ride - two blocks. This is a big deal. This is not normal (at least I sincerely hope it's not normal). My god - this kid's only a few years away from being able to drive, vote, get married, drink (some of these depending on specific State laws, of course) - but he's not allowed to walk _two blocks_ by himself? What is he learning about life skills and how to cope with the world around him? Do we really want another whole generation growing up thinking that walking is bad, and that they _need_ a freaking car to be safe?

15 is young, but it's not _that_ young. DS1 isn't even 14 yet, and I'd be willing to bet he could father a child (not yet, please!!) right now. Treating him like a small child isn't to his benefit or to mine.

I got into a very bad situation with a bunch of guys (long story) when I was about 16. I got out of it. I got into a couple of other bad situations when I was 19 and 20 - one of them involved a couple of guys trying to drag me into their car. A biker came along and bailed me out. He was the only person around who wasn't in a car - the only one who noticed that I was in trouble. If some people had been out walking around, I would have been a lot safer.

But...that's not even the point. Should my mom still have been requiring me to call home for a ride at 20 (legal age for _everything_ here), because I could be attacked? I got out of the mess when I was 15 by myself - when I was 20, I needed help.

What's the magic age where I could safely walk to the corner store?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I think sometimes parents are overprotective like this not because they don't trust strangers/their crazy ex/traffic/etc but because they don't trust their kids. I don't mean that they are worried about them getting into trouble like doing drugs or something but more that they just do not trust that their kids are capable or responsible enough to take care of themselves. I would think this kind of overprotective behavior would really have a negative effect on a young person's self-esteem.

In order to get to my ballet class, starting around age 11, I had to walk probably over a mile through our neighborhood and into an urban commercial district to catch the crosstown bus. After the bus ride, I had to walk about another half mile or so to my class. I had several strange incidents along the way, but I always knew what to do...do NOT take a ride from a stranger even when it is pouring down rain and they insist, do NOT make eye contact with weirdos on the bus, if someone gets off at your stop let them walk ahead of you so you aren't followed, etc. Even though she didn't trust everyone in the entire world, my mom trusted *me* to be able to make the right decisions. She instilled in me that I am a strong capable woman who can recognize risk and be aware of possible danger without cowering in fear. Thanks Mom!









Of course someone could have dragged me kicking and screaming behind a buiding and attacked and killed me, but not because I wasn't careful or smart. Bad things can happen ANYWHERE. Remember poor Polly Klaas? She was abducted from her own bedroom during a slumber party with her parents just down the hall. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children every second of everyday from every danger, particularly older children on the verge of adulthood.

Of course I only have a 15 month old, so what do I know really.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I absolutely agree that we've done this to ourselves.

Ever read "Last Child in the Woods?" Something was mentioned about kids born in the early 70's (I think) being the last generation to have a free-range childhood in the USA.

I'm in that generation. When I was a kid in a small town, kids were out everywhere. And old folks sitting on the front porch. Moms were home (not making a thing about that, just stating facts) and kids were just everywhere.

By the 1998, I was back in the same small town, even in the very same neighborhood, with my DH and (then) 3 tiny sons. I'd put the boys in a wagon and set off on foot to visit old friends (mostly elderly) and go to the library, park, or store.

1998. Let me tell you, it was truly bizarre to be the only mama and kids on the street in the daytime







Old folks weren't out, either. I realize this would not be the same old folks LOL but why was that not continued? No little kids to watch play? No people taking walks to say "hi" too, so the old folks went in to watch TV?

The quietness of the streets, yet I kept going, hoping that the other mamas would come out and play. I saw the playhouses and swingsets, I know there were SAHM's there. But they never did come out and walk to the library, too.

We had several incidents that would have been impossible if kids were still everywhere and people were traveling by foot or bike as they used to. Incidents with truly creepy scary guys, me and my babies on a silent side street, and not a soul around. Or being followed. Or a dog attack, with not one person around to call to.

We moved to the city, and I know there is no going back home. That town stays zipped up indoors, travels 2 blocks by car, and only lets the children play with each other in organized sports. It sucks. It sucks eggs.

I've had visions of going back, rounding up all the people I graduated with that rode bikes with me 20-25 years ago, and having a town meeting where we decide to re-inhabit the parks and sidewalks of the town. Park it and walk. Backyard kickball, and kids riding their bikes. "All" the kids so they'll be safe.

Don't know if it would catch on.

(sorry, a little hijacking there, sign me "Tired of Being the Only Mama on Foot, with Kids Who Don't Want to be Organized Just to Play")


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
My fears are not born from a fear mongering culture. My fears stem from MY life experiences. Things that have happened right here. On my street. In my neighborhood. I am not basing my hypotheticals on 'what ifs'. I am basing them on stuff that has actually happened, and probably will happen again.


I think THIS is totally different than some of the comments about "this day and age" that we've seen on this thread. I completely get moms who, because of the neighborhood they live in, feel more comfortable being in constant contact with their kids. I really do and I'd be the same way. A few years ago, we lived in an apartment complex where'd I'd watch my son take the trash out when it was literally 20 ft from our door, but that's different. This is a 15 year old, presumably in a "safe" neighborhood (I'm probably stereotyping here - but I doubt there are many people in violent areas giving piano lessons - my own bias







) who is not "allowed" to go 2 blocks without supervision and probably being told it's because of some "stranger danger". I think that hurts kids on multiple levels - mainly 1) it furthers a paranoia and distrust that is running rampant in our society and 2) it doesn't prepare him for life as an adult, which is only a couple years away for a 15 yr old.

I'm baffled by the fear in our society and I think it purpetuates the (minor) risk that we all face with "strangers". In a society where everyone's afraid and looking out for themselves, we lose the "safety" that comes from being in a community. When you think your neighbors are all potential pedophiles and rapists, you're less likely to help out when someone needs it. It just leads to a cycle of self interest, IMO.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
We had several incidents that would have been impossible if kids were still everywhere and people were traveling by foot or bike as they used to. Incidents with truly creepy scary guys, me and my babies on a silent side street, and not a soul around. Or being followed. Or a dog attack, with not one person around to call to.

I think this is really sad. I feel like we've created our own nightmare. This thread makes me think about a scene in one of Micheal Moore's films where he's in Canada and going door to door, seeing how many are locked. (none of them were, but that may have been editing)

We, as Americans, have locked ourselves in our houses to protect ourselves from the "wackos", but in the process, we've just created a society where it's "everyone for themselves". What does that accomplish?


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## allye (Dec 14, 2006)

It depends on her family situation, but if it was me, I would walk him those two blocks and not drive him. Waste of gas IMO.
i know in my situation, with my 13 yr old and his many deficits, I have to supervise him when he's not out with his friends, so yes he gets dragged to pick up my 4 yr old from daycare or preschool. And people wonder why he's with me all the time (when he's not out with his friends)...
I don't know, sometimes mamas take things to the utmost extremes, and I think in this case unless something major is going on, this is one of those times!


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
"Only" 15? We're talking about a 15-year-old being expected to call home for a ride - two blocks. This is a big deal. This is not normal (at least I sincerely hope it's not normal). My god - this kid's only a few years away from being able to drive, vote, get married, drink (some of these depending on specific State laws, of course) - but he's not allowed to walk _two blocks_ by himself? What is he learning about life skills and how to cope with the world around him? Do we really want another whole generation growing up thinking that walking is bad, and that they _need_ a freaking car to be safe?

15 is young, but it's not _that_ young. DS1 isn't even 14 yet, and I'd be willing to bet he could father a child (not yet, please!!) right now. Treating him like a small child isn't to his benefit or to mine.










: I think when someone does not have a teenager, 15 seems really young but in the US legal adult age is 18. Kids in many places can get their driving permits at 15, they can legally work with a permit at 15, its a transitional age IMO to 16 where suddenly they do get more freedoms. Like Storm said a 15 yo is only a few (3) years away from being able to vote, get married, join the military...

No, I think as someone else stated the problem is that we are slammed with constant news to the point that we see the world as totally unsafe yet crime and violence have always occured. The difference really is our ability to hear about what happens in small town USA or UK, or whereever.

The problem IMO with saying he is only 15 is that unlike the difference between a 3 yo and 6 yo where developmentally they are light years away from each other, at 15, a lot of who you are going to be at 18 is already in place. So you really need to start gaining experiences IMO.

Gotta get ready for work. More later.

Shay


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:

I've had visions of going back, rounding up all the people I graduated with that rode bikes with me 20-25 years ago, and having a town meeting where we decide to re-inhabit the parks and sidewalks of the town. Park it and walk. Backyard kickball, and kids riding their bikes. "All" the kids so they'll be safe.








I'm in!

IMO unless there are special circumstances, that is extreme to the point of being unhealthy. But my 5 yr old is allowed to walk down the street to a friend's house alone, so







maybe I'm on the other end of the spectrum.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Maybe it isn't mom's issue......maybe something happened to the boy and he is the one who wants mom to pick him up. Maybe mom just gave him permission to use her as an excuse and she tells people the same thing, so the boy isn't embarrased by not being comfortable walking alone. Maybe not.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RainCoastMama* 
Regardless of whether I think it's extreme, who are we to judge a mama's parenting? We have no idea about her background, her life experiences or her personal use of 'the gift'. The world can be a scary place to someone who consumes a lot of sensational news, and I would never pass judgement on another family trying their best to ensure their kids' safety.

FWIW, I grew up in a violent country where we could not play in our own backyards without an adult watching, forget walking 2 blocks. Familes live in gated communites, hire guards, etc. etc. My parents brought this mentality to our new (safer) country and I do not begrudge them.


First of all, we have every right to judge anyone and everything whenever and wherever and however we want to do so because judgment is the capacity of the rational mind to come to a reasoned conclusion based on consideration of the evidence at hand. I refuse to deny myself the capacity to exercise one of the most evolved skills in the world, possibly in the universe. Moreover, I would like to add that the more information I have, the better and more accurate my judgment.

That said, the mother's history is irrelevant to the issue of whether her treatment of the young man is extreme for the context in which he lives and for him personally. Utterly irrelevant. Her history might be distorting her view of what is "safe," but that does not mean that her treatment of the young man is appropriate. It isn't. It is inappropriate given _this_ time, _this_ setting, _this_ context.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 

But at some point it all seems ridiculous to me because while yes, I do get frustrated with drivers who think stopping for crosswalks is optional, I've been hoofing it every day of my life for the last 11 years and...I'm here.


Somewhat OT, but this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine too. Boston drivers seem to think that crosswalk signs are decorations. I walk to work and back, and have become a very aggressive crosswalk crosser! I give them the look, right in the eye, then walk out right in front of them, forcing them to stop. Haven't been run down yet, but I've had a lot of horns blown at me. Of course, the drivers then regret that, as I stop in front of their car, point to the sign, and harangue them loudly.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
So for those who think this is OK, where do you draw the line? And how do you plan on getting your kid to the point where they can be an independent adult? Is it at some point after the age of 15 when they can start taking very, very small risks like walking two blocks alone in their own neighborhood? Do you plan on allowing them to live in college dorms or their own apartment? How do you plan to protect them there?

Sounds snarky, but I really want to know!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kundalini-Mama* 
The more I think of this, the more angry I become.

This child is not being taught any basic life skills in regards to being safe in public!! This is so scary. He will be going to college in a couple of years and without practicing living how will he survive on his own without his mother there to run interference for him?/QUOTE]



Well my parents did not let me walk anywhere alone, even as a high schooler. I could walk with other kids though. It was ZERO problem once I got to college to walk alone. NONE. I figured it out right away. And my parents had talked to me about being safe. It was no problem to apply that.

The people here who are saying "how will he manage" are the flip side of those mainstream parents who say about an AP/GD'd kid "How will they manage in the "real world"


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
The people here who are saying "how will he manage" are the flip side of those mainstream parents who say about an AP/GD'd kid "How will they manage in the "real world"

Those "mainstream parents" would have zero knowledge of what attachment parenting and gentle discipline are all about then. I think it's a common misconception that they involve lots of coddling which would lead to a self-centered dependent person. However, IMO they are in fact about being responsive to children's needs, respecting children as actual full-fledged human beings, and fostering an environment which would allow children to grow into very independent confident people.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

I really appreciate all these responses to my OP.

I can identify with my student's mom in some ways. I tend to be a "worrier". There are many times when I have to consciously make a choice to choose to not give in to fear. I'm not talking about ignoring my inner voice or sense of danger...I'm just talking about dealing with the multitude of little worries that float into my brain on a daily basis. Every night when I bring my 7-month-old baby into my bed to sleep, I worry that something will happen to her during the night, even though I know that co-sleeping is both safe and the best thing for her emotionally. I know that there is that tiny risk of something happening to her in bed--even though we have co-slept safely with her for 7 months, and we co-slept safely with her older brother for several years. It is just me--I worry. But if I give in to that worry...if I say, "OK, on the remote chance that something will happen, I'm going to have her sleep in the crib", then she and I and dh are are losing other things that are very important to us emotionally and to her psychological well-being.

I have a good friend who is afraid to drive to the city, 45 minutes away, by herself, because she is afraid she will get lost or something will happen. So she just does not go there unless her dh goes with. She feels a sense of peace and security from her choice, which I can respect. But I also think of all she is missing because of her fear. I would feel so incredibly confined. I am used to doing many things by myself and to being alone with myself. My parents gave us a huge amount of freedom as kids. We lived out in the boonies on 2.5 acres of land. We walked all over the place. We walked a mile to the mom-and-pop convenience store to buy candy all the time. When I was 19, I drove home from college, 13 hours, by myself. It blows my mind that I did this at 19, yet my friend who is 32 won't drive 45 minutes away. When my dh and I first moved to a city about 9 years ago, and he was working and I was home alone, I explored the entire city on my own. I never gave it a second thought.

So I guess it's my background and my own experiences that form my feelings. Would I have been so comfortable exploring on my own if I hadn't been allowed to do it as a child? Who knows.

As a mother, I do feel a great deal more caution when it comes to my own kids. Sometimes I think that caution, or fear, is valid and is a true protective tool. But sometimes it is my own worries, and I have to examine them.

I don't think that my student or his siblings are going to be messed up for life. I have known the whole family pretty well for several years, and they all seem to be pretty well-adjusted kids, so their parents must be compensating in other ways and giving them other forms of responsibility.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Well my parents did not let me walk anywhere alone, even as a high schooler. I could walk with other kids though. It was ZERO problem once I got to college to walk alone. NONE. I figured it out right away. And my parents had talked to me about being safe. It was no problem to apply that.

Okay - but again, why the line? What made you, as an 18-year-old (for the sake of argument) 12th grader, unsafe when walking by yourself, but as an 18-year-old on campus, you were fine? That seems like an extremely arbitrary line to draw. FWIW...I've heard so many horror stories about women being assaulted on campus (never went myself) that I'd actually be more nervous about dd walking around at university than in town...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Maybe it isn't mom's issue......maybe something happened to the boy and he is the one who wants mom to pick him up. Maybe mom just gave him permission to use her as an excuse and she tells people the same thing, so the boy isn't embarrased by not being comfortable walking alone. Maybe not.

I can't believe I didn't even think of this. My mom let us use her as an "out" if we wanted out of a situation, and didn't want to take the flack. I'm sure she wasn't alone. (I never used the "mom won't let me" thing, but I think my sister did once or twice...maybe not - she was rarely that uncomfortable with a situation.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laurel* 
I have a good friend who is afraid to drive to the city, 45 minutes away, by herself, because she is afraid she will get lost or something will happen. So she just does not go there unless her dh goes with. She feels a sense of peace and security from her choice, which I can respect. But I also think of all she is missing because of her fear. I would feel so incredibly confined. I am used to doing many things by myself and to being alone with myself. My parents gave us a huge amount of freedom as kids. We lived out in the boonies on 2.5 acres of land. We walked all over the place. We walked a mile to the mom-and-pop convenience store to buy candy all the time. When I was 19, I drove home from college, 13 hours, by myself. It blows my mind that I did this at 19, yet my friend who is 32 won't drive 45 minutes away. When my dh and I first moved to a city about 9 years ago, and he was working and I was home alone, I explored the entire city on my own. I never gave it a second thought.

Totally OT re: the thread, but this caught my attention. Is your friend afraid to explore - or afraid to _drive_ where she's uncomfortable? I've been all over Vancouver on transit. DH and I once took three kids (one of ours and two others) on a bus trip that lasted well over an hour each way, and involved four different transit vehicles in each direction. We'd never been to our destination before. I flew down to visit dh in Knoxville in 2001, and I'd never been on a plane myself before. What I'm getting at is - I'm quite comfortable getting around on the bus, exploring new territory and checking things out. I'm also totally comfortable on my own - and have walked all over my living area many, many times, both with kids in tow and on my own (including solo walks in the rain at midnight). However - I probably wouldn't want to do the drive your friend avoids, either. I _hate_ driving. I didn't even get my license until June, 2005, and I've never liked being behind the wheel. I also hate getting lost when driving...if I'm walking or on a bus, it's no big deal. The stress of trying to figure out where I am and how to get back to where I want to be while driving just makes me nuts.

Anyway - totally OT, but not wanting to drive doesn't necessarily mean not being willing to explore or be on your own.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

Good point, Storm Bride. I think it's probably some of both. I know the driving makes her nervous. But I can't picture her going into the city by bus either. She has a lot of things she's anxious about. I can relate, as I tend to be anxious myself about many things (just different things that her or the mom in my OP).

I went to counseling a few years ago for depression, and a lot of what I learned helped me cope with anxiety too, especially about what my therapist called "cognitive distortions", which is where we create our own distorted reality based on the thoughts that run through our heads. We create anxiety, anger, etc. when it isn't really warranted, and unless we challenge those thoughts, we can remain locked into it and miss out of other experiences/growth.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

BelgianSheepdog wrote:

Quote:

But at some point it all seems ridiculous to me because while yes, I do get frustrated with drivers who think stopping for crosswalks is optional, I've been hoofing it every day of my life for the last 11 years and...I'm here. And I'd rather live in a world where walking is feasible than in a world where everyone is hunkered down behind their alarm systems in their suburban assault vehicles driving three parking spots down to the laundry room (my old neighbors did that.) And the simple fact of the matter is, we can't have it both ways. We can't cater to these irrational fears AND have a world that is safe for pedestrians.








ITA! I live in a city with heavy traffic and a lot of careless, self-centered drivers, and for that reason I'll make my son wait longer than I did to cross the street alone--like, maybe 6 years old instead of 4. By the time he's 15, I expect he'll be able to wander around the city by himself, on foot and on transit. I will tell him to avoid the neighborhoods that have frequent drive-by shootings, I will insist that he obey the law against pedestrians on the Parkway (near our house, but there's a bridge over it), and I'll require him to take a friend if he's going hiking in the big parks.

Just before I got pregnant, a co-worker and her dog were killed by a car at the very intersection where she'd petitioned for a stoplight.







They were crossing legally, in a marked crosswalk, on a street where cars are SUPPOSED to go 25mph. Of course I was terrified for my own safety, even more than I had been; I've been hit by cars myself 3 times, but all at low speed causing nothing worse than scrapes and bruises. It was tempting to stay in my house forever. But I got out there and kept walking. When my baby was born, I walked everywhere carrying him in a sling. At 15 months he took his first walk around the neighborhood on his own feet...and when we got to a curb, he stopped and looked around--not exactly looking both ways, but showing a very clear awareness that we don't just dash out into the street; we pause and evaluate the situation.







So now we walk and talk about watching the traffic, about red lights and green lights and waiting for the picture of the walking person, about walking between the white lines, about how we can see that car is about to do a wrong thing and stay out of its way to be safe. He is catching on. Teaching safety skills is a much better way to protect him than forbidding walking.

It is entirely possible that Laurel's student or someone in his family had a bad experience that resulted in their rule. But in general, I think it's ridiculous and actually reduces his safety in the long run.


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## ~Shanna~ (Nov 17, 2005)

This is a fascinating discussion. I wanted to add:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
Ever read "Last Child in the Woods?" Something was mentioned about kids born in the early 70's (I think) being the last generation to have a free-range childhood in the USA.

There's a fascinating article in The Sun this month called "Nature Deficit Disorder: Richard Louv asks whether we're raising our children under house arrest". The article is a bit more slanted on what it means for our children to feel so alienated from nature, but he touches on a lot of the topics raised here.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - but again, why the line? What made you, as an 18-year-old (for the sake of argument) 12th grader, unsafe when walking by yourself, but as an 18-year-old on campus, you were fine? That seems like an extremely arbitrary line to draw. FWIW...I've heard so many horror stories about women being assaulted on campus (never went myself) that I'd actually be more nervous about dd walking around at university than in town...

Because where I grew up I would have been completely alone walking around whereas on campus, during the day, when I would walk alone, there would be tons and tons of other people doing the same thing.

I never walked alone at night on campus. Always with a BIG group, or drove.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Because where I grew up I would have been completely alone walking around whereas on campus, during the day, when I would walk alone, there would be tons and tons of other people doing the same thing.

I never walked alone at night on campus. Always with a BIG group, or drove.

That makes sense...although, as several people have pointed out, if fewer people were forbidding their kids to walk anywhere, there would be more kids on the streets.

I can't imagine going to school and feeling unsafe to walk around by myself at night.


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## maryeliz (Oct 27, 2005)

Someone upthread asked about specifics. For my daughters who are 20 and 18 now, this is the basic outline of what they were allowed to do and when, although sometimes things changed according to where we were living.

9 or 10-at this age they were allowed to go to the little store down the block and buy a treat, walk the couple blocks to school, and play on the school playground before and after school. At this age I always made them go together.

11-12, they were allowed to go to shops a few blocks away and to take a short bus ride to music lessons and martial arts (which they both took for years). Again I usually required them to stick together. This was the age when I also started paying attention to which of their friends were responsible types-and limiting the activities they could do with the not-so responsible ones when they didn't have adult supervision.

16-by sixteen they had a good deal of freedom. I expected to know where they were going and with whom, and when one of my daughters seemed to be making poor choices I made a lot of spot checks to make sure she was where she said she would be. But they were allowed to take public transportation and go to movies or shopping on their own. At this age cars were the big thing that scared me, and I really limited the amount of rides they took from other teens. At night I expected them to call me and get a ride or get a ride from someone elses parents. Finally, I always told them if they got in trouble they could call me and I would help them no questions asked (at least that night).

18-they were free to make their own choices. one has travelled internationally on her own, the other recently drove cross country on her own.

As they were growing up I tried to teach them to be both confident and wary. Specifics included:

-be aware of your surroundings (and don't wear headphones)
-never be embarassed to ask for help or make a disturbance if you feel threatened.
-if you need help, pick someone specific and ask that person, people are more likely to respond if you single them out.
-if you have to yell for help yell "call 911" if gives people permission to get involved
-each time you turn a corner when walking, look behind you to see if anyone is following.
-be aware of blind spots where someone could hide.
-trust your instincts


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryeliz* 
As they were growing up I tried to teach them to be both confident and wary. Specifics included:

-be aware of your surroundings (and don't wear headphones)
-never be embarassed to ask for help or make a disturbance if you feel threatened.
*-if you need help, pick someone specific and ask that person, people are more likely to respond if you single them out.
-if you have to yell for help yell "call 911" if gives people permission to get involved*
-each time you turn a corner when walking, look behind you to see if anyone is following.
-be aware of blind spots where someone could hide.
-trust your instincts

Excellent advice! Especially the points that I bolded. My mom actually never knew to tell me those two things, but I took a social pych class in college and learned that just having people around is no guarantee of safety. It's called the bystander effect if anyone wants to read a little about it.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I just think the fact that this is such a huge deal to people is crazy. There are so many parents who don't give a care about their kids, and some here are choosing to bash a mom who is being over-protective? Yeah... he'd probably be just fine walking home. But it is NOT hurting him at all, he's not going to be some inept college kid because his mom is over-protective.

There are so many better things to be on a soapbox about.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

How do you know it's not hurting him?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I just think the fact that this is such a huge deal to people is crazy. There are so many parents who don't give a care about their kids, and some here are choosing to bash a mom who is being over-protective? Yeah... he'd probably be just fine walking home. But it is NOT hurting him at all, he's not going to be some inept college kid because his mom is over-protective.

There are so many better things to be on a soapbox about.

I don't think anyone here is bashing anyone or on a soapbox about anything. I think we are all just discussing a pareting issue and using the situation in the OP as a jumping off point for that discussion. I think we are all just trying to learn from each others experiences and develop our our own ideas about child safety and think about how we will apply those ideas to our own lives. Isn't that what this place is all about...learning from other mamas and exploring pareting ideas?


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I agree with riverscout. Overprotectiveness causes problems in kids, too. it's not just parents who "don't care about their kids" that can have long-term effects.

I have some serious anxiety about my kids' safety sometimes. (Which is weird because I had a ton of freedom as a kid and not one bad thing ever happened to me as a result.) But that's internal - it's ME. So I bite my tongue and let them ride their bikes on the gravel driveway or climb the tree or, eventually, walk the two blocks home. It is impossible to protect kids from every little thing - and really, you don't want to.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i agree the world is not what is was when i was a teen, or even when i started as a foster mom.

not sure -- but I might ask him to call and tell me he was leaving your house, so I'd know. But I doubt i insist he be driven. But I would want to know when he was out alone, for any reason, any time.

After that 13 yo got stolen at a bus stop what 300 feet, 500 feet from home -----

TAKE NO CHANCES

A


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

The problem with "take no chances" is that it's literally impossible. To take no chances would mean never to eat (you might choke or get food poisoning!) or take a bath or shower (people slip and die all the time) or get in a car or walk on the sidewalk. There's no such thing as "no chances."

So, how do you live? You do risk-assessment. And if you do that, you quickly realize that "stranger danger" is miniscule compared to most of the risks we run every day. And that you cannot live your life in fear of unlikely events. You take reasonable precautions -- teach kids how to cross streets and that cars will NOT always obey the traffic laws, so don't assume that the "walk" sign means you're safe to cross; teach them how to get help when they need it; teach them never to get in a stranger's car. Sure, have him call before he leaves (what Aimee's suggesting), that's reasonable -- but don't sit there paralyzed with fear because the world is so much more dangerous than it used to be. It's not. The world is and has always been a dangerous place, and that's something we have to come to terms with.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
So, how do you live? You do risk-assessment. And if you do that, you quickly realize that "stranger danger" is miniscule compared to most of the risks we run every day.

...such as the aforementioned risk of heart disease, diabetes, etc. from a sedentary lifestyle. Do I think that walking two blocks, instead of driving, makes a huge difference? No - it's too short a distance. But, the mindset is scary. We're _not_ safe in vehicles, and I think that the illusion that we are is way more dangerous than the miniscule risk that a predator is waiting between the music teacher's and home.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I think the point about "illusion of safety" is a really good one. And street-smarts are a learned trait; it's a lot safer for your kid to gradually gain more autonomy, than to suddenly end up as an oversheltered 23-year-old who never walks anywhere, whose car just broke down on a dark street.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
The problem with "take no chances" is that it's literally impossible. To take no chances would mean never to eat (you might choke or get food poisoning!) or take a bath or shower (people slip and die all the time) or get in a car or walk on the sidewalk. There's no such thing as "no chances."

So, how do you live? You do risk-assessment. And if you do that, you quickly realize that "stranger danger" is miniscule compared to most of the risks we run every day. And that you cannot live your life in fear of unlikely events. You take reasonable precautions -- teach kids how to cross streets and that cars will NOT always obey the traffic laws, so don't assume that the "walk" sign means you're safe to cross; teach them how to get help when they need it; teach them never to get in a stranger's car. Sure, have him call before he leaves (what Aimee's suggesting), that's reasonable -- but don't sit there paralyzed with fear because the world is so much more dangerous than it used to be. It's not. The world is and has always been a dangerous place, and that's something we have to come to terms with.


Yes!

How many 13 year olds live in your town? And how many get snatched by strangers every year? How many get killed while passengers in a car? How many will grow up to be 50 year olds with heart disease? Just because one risk is more dramatic than the others doesn't mean it is actually worse.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

Ironically, the bigger the risk, the less likely you are to hear about it on the news. People who die in traffic accidents or fall off ladders don't make the news because it happens all the time -- people who die in kidnapping events or plane crashes DO make the news, because it's rare and spectacular.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Thalia & BSD - I'm right there with you guys.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Yeah interesting...OT but dh is an avid ice climber which sounds dangerous but he's much more likely to get hurt walking across the street. Just our public perception, etc.


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## Leta (Dec 6, 2006)

This thread has really gotten under my skin.

On one hand, I think it is almost always wrong to judge other people's parenting.

OTOH, I was raised by an overproctective mom, and I feel like I have to share.

What this mother is doing to her son is not helpful. It is a disservice. Breeding fear in children is never good. Not even "healthy" fear. Everybody should be aware of dangers, but that is not the same as fear.

I think this kid would be way better off studying martial arts or some other type of self defense instead of being chauffered blocks at a time. He would be empowered, able to protect himself, rather than protected by someone else.

In my experience, and many others who were raised by overprotective parents echo this, the flopover of overprotectiveness is neglect. Parents are so exhausted from sheilding their children that they don't have anything left to give. Overprotectiveness, in and of itself, can be very neglectful. You are not teaching your children, or giving them a chance to teach themselves, vital, neccesary skills.

As many pp said, this kid is going to be an adult very soon. He's going to have a lot of catching up to do in order to function as a grown up. I know that I did.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

sounds over the top to me.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leta* 
Everybody should be aware of dangers, but that is not the same as fear.


I think this is brilliant (probably because it's the way I feel







)

I think being "afraid" of general things - like "kidnappings" or carjackings" - is never productive, really. The best thing we can do for our kids is teach them how to minimize & weigh risks and how to be aware of their surroundings in specific situations.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Getz* 
Maybe there was an incident in the mother's life that caused her to be so cautious?

But, if not, I do think it is a bit extreme myself. I almost think small towns can be safer because everyone knows everyone else. In my small town growing up you couldn't do anything without someone seeing your dad up at the gas station and telling on you!

Kinda off topic, but why do they drive the 2 blocks instead of walk to get him? It seems like a waste of gas.

That's what I was wondering- maybe there is an incident in her past that is making her uber-protective.

And lol to the last statement. I was wondering that myself.


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

Personally, I think that is really creepy. (Not letting 15 yr old walk alone.) I mean, that basically guarantees that the kid has no personal privacy/ space or time on his own, which is so important for psychological development. Not to mention, that takes overprotectiveness to a major extreme. Damaging to the kid to grow up in fear and to not learn how to cope on his own. I grew up with a seriously overprotective mom and it was quite damaging. And she was not as bad as the OP's situation. He's coming up quick on adulthood. How nuts for a kid to go off to college and never having walked alone before! How is he going to walk to class? Take a walk alone? Learn to drive? There is no such thing as zero risk, I'm sorry. There is risk assessment. It's not even desirable to live in such fear and caution that you take no risks and never do anything! Sure, it's safer to take as few risks as possible, but you have severely limited yourself and taken most of the fun out of life! Life limiting rather than life affirming. Not advocating deliberately taking irresponsible risks, but intelligent ones (like walking a couple blocks).


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Thalia the Muse wrote:

Quote:

Ironically, the bigger the risk, the less likely you are to hear about it on the news. People who die in traffic accidents or fall off ladders don't make the news because it happens all the time








I mentioned earlier a friend killed by a car. She was one of at least FOUR pedestrians killed by cars in Pittsburgh (pop. 300,000) that WEEK, and it wasn't even icy weather. None of them got more than a little "news brief" until later, when her neighborhood association agitated for better traffic controls and her family filed a wrongful death lawsuit. (Both were successful.) Meanwhile, abductions of children by strangers happen in Pittsburgh about once per year.

So, I'm far more concerned about traffic killing my child than kidnappers. The strange thing is that when I say that to people, their reaction often is, "Oh, well, traffic--you know you can't protect him from that forever! You just have to teach him safety skills." yet in the same conversation they'll talk about not letting their children walk to school because of the possibility of kidnappers or molesters.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

You know, it hit me, re-reading this, that my six year old is allowed to walk farther than this kid to get to his friend's house around the corner.

And we live in "the city."


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Unless you live in an area of weekly drive by shootings, this is clearly extreme. I feel sad for that 15 y.o.; his mom is doing him a great disservice. Doesn't matter what her background is; she shouldn't burden her child for it.

Protect him from any possible problems - and many, many definite positives. I just can't get over how sad it is.

My kids are 10, 6 and 3. The 10 y.o. rides her bike six or seven blocks to the park - with a friend and a Motorola pager so we can talk. The 10 and 6 y.o. walk to school - also six blocks. They know not to assume that people will stop at the stop signs. Wait and let them go, or wait until they signal you across. Dd was heckled once, and dealt with it very well - she got away and called me on the pager, and came home. And wasn't afraid to go again to the park.

When I was 10, I'd ride my bike miles and miles to the other end of town. We'd hike up in the woods when we were 12 - all day long without any means to call for help other than sending someone out. At 14/15, we would swim in the river without any adults around. At 16, I drove three hours to take my boyfriend to the airport - and got a hotel as it was an early morning flight. At barely 18, a classmate and I drove to southern California (two days driving each way) for a weeklong trip.

I really think you need to give kids progressively more independence. It is inhibiting their growth not to. I think it is part of our job as parents to teach our kids to be ok without us.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

subbing


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

My father always drove us just to be sure we were doing what we should and not getting into trouble. This was up until high school. When we started high school, he only drove us TO school to make sure we went.

But, we lived in a bad neighborhood with lots of risk of being influenced by the other kids to cut school, hang out in parks all day, do drugs, and have unprotected sex with everyone. My neighbors' children went that route, but my sister and I were always where we should be.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryeliz* 

-be aware of your surroundings (and don't wear headphones)
-never be embarassed to ask for help or make a disturbance if you feel threatened.
-if you need help, pick someone specific and ask that person, people are more likely to respond if you single them out.
-if you have to yell for help yell "call 911" if gives people permission to get involved
-each time you turn a corner when walking, look behind you to see if anyone is following.
-be aware of blind spots where someone could hide.
-trust your instincts

These are all fantastic examples of common sense advise. I've heard the one about "Pick a specific person and single them out" over and over. It seems that frequently people think "someone else" will help the person, and by choosing someone they are more likely to act.

Thanks!

As far as the OP, yes, I think it is waaaay too overprotective. Just my opinion....


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

I haven't read everything here but I've been thinking about this situation alot lately - I grew up in a small town where everyone knew everyone else and "nothing bad ever happened". A classmate of mine was very sheltered like this. Her driveway was maybe 50 feet long, with a direct line of sight from the house to the end of the driveway, and her mother waited at the end of the driveway for the school bus with/for her morning and afternoon THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL. There were other little things her parents did, like get special permission for her to eat a snack during class in Middle and High School, and to skip certain parts of practice for the Softball team (which was an optional after school activity), and always wrote her notes when she couldn't finish her homework because she didn't know how to do it. Her mother would bring her lunch for her every day because she liked warm lunches but not school lunch - so her mom heated up her lunch and brought it in for her. Just little things that, by high school, the rest of us were doing for ourselves or just dealing with on our own.. We all felt sorry for her, and some kids made fun of her. She and I were sort of friends, we didn't hang out at each others' houses but we were friendly in school and did some activities together.

I've recently started talking with her again - we "met" again in an online forum - and I am amazed at some of the things she says. She tried living on her own but never felt safe so she now lives with her 40 year old boyfriend (we're 25). She has never been able to finish college because the teachers are always unfair and don't understand her needs, and she's just started her 5th job in 2 months because the employers end up not understanding and expecting too much of her. It is *never* her fault/problem, it is always someone else's fault, and someone else's failure to do something - and I really think this is a direct result of the fact that she was never allowed to do anything for herself/on her own growing up. She doesn't seem to know how to function in the "real world", and it just makes me sad cause she's such a nice person in general. For the record, she has no special needs outside of asthma, so there isn't a hidden reason for any of this.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

I have to agree that I think this mother is doing her child a great disservice (unless there's a real threat, like other posters have suggested...). My mom was pretty overprotective, though not as bad as the one in the OP. My brother and I rebelled pretty well against it, but my sister, the youngest, spent a lot more time alone with mom after we moved out and internallized a lot of these beliefs. As a result, at 26yo, she can't do ANYTHING for herself. She is a victim waiting to happen. She's afraid to walk alone in her very nice, very safe suburban neighborhood without talking on her cell to our mom. Instead of looking confident and strong, she looks afraid and vulnerable - exactly what a predator is looking for. She rarely goes anywhere without her husband, she didn't even take her baby out by herself until he was 4 months old! She can't drive in anything but perfect weather, she can't do anything! And nothing bad has ever happened to her. It's just the possibility of something, anything, going wrong. The best way to protect our children is to give them the ability to protect themselves.


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## Patrice#1 (Mar 12, 2004)

I do think that is a tad extreme. If you lived in a place where it is not so safe outside, then sure, I would think that that is a good thing to do, but you say you live in a safe neighborhood, so, I would have to say that it is a little overboard. I feel that you do have to gradually prepare children for the 'real world'. What is going to happen when he wants to leave for college? He always called for a ride and never went anywhere alone. The very next day at college, he will feel like a fish out of water!


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

Thank god my parents are not that extreme. I say if the kid can defend himself...
Like if anyone comes at me and they dont have a gun or a knife then I am going to whup their ***.


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