# Thoughts on Gift Giving



## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

What do you think about giving presents?
Do you try to give your kids what you think they will really want, even if it's something you don't really want to get, or do you get them what you want them to have (of course, said item would be something you know they will like, just not _the thing_ they're lusting after in the toy store)?

I want to get DD a present for christmas (she's never gotten one before), I saw something that I'd really like her to have, and I know she'll love it, and it's practical to boot. But I know there's something else she really really _really_ wants.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

The whole point of giving gifts is to make the person happy, so I would tend to say get her what she wants. However, as parents it is our jobs to sometimes use our judgement and say no to things.

It would completely deppend on how much you didn't want her to have the gift she wants, and how much she will like the gift you want to give her. If you feel that there is a safety issue, then the answer is easy; but if it is a less serious matter like worrying that she will out grow the item quickly, then it becomes a more difficult issue to decide. If in doubt I would lean towards giving her the gift she really wants.

If the real issue is that you _really_ want to get the other gift, it certainly isn't unheard of to get more than one christmas present.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay, while I would like answers in general, I will say what this specific case is:
I thought of getting DD a Dora the Explorer Wall Clock that I saw pretty cheap. I thought, she'd probably really like that, and she's about of an age to start learning to tell time (she's shown interest already), and since we're buying a house and she'll get her own room, it made sense.
but
while I know she'll like that present,(she's into Dora), and it's what *I* want her to have, I know that what she really wants is a Bratz doll. okay, that wasn't entirely accurate. she really really REALLY wants a Bratz doll







I personally don't like Bratz, but I'm respecting DD in her right to like them.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Bratz. Ouch.
I'd try to get her to "fall in love" with some other cooler doll thingie.

Has she explained why she wants the Bratz?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay* 
Bratz. Ouch.
I'd try to get her to "fall in love" with some other cooler doll thingie.

Has she explained why she wants the Bratz?

she wants bratz coz she thinks they're beautiful.








and imo, getting her to like some "cooler" doll thingie would be cooler in _my_ opinion. I don't really want to convince her that her opinion is wrong and bratz aren't cool. she knows how I feel about them, I know how she feels about them. we respect each other's opinions.

the point isn't the gifts themselves, but if you would try to get someone something that you want for them, or that they want to get.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
the point isn't the gifts themselves, but if you would try to get someone something that you want for them, or that they want to get.

If it's really not about the Bratz doll, but about why we give a gift, then I think you already know the answer.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
If it's really not about the Bratz doll, but about why we give a gift, then I think you already know the answer.

no, i don't that's the point of the thread. I believe the answer to this is a personal thing.
*is your focus on gift giving to give someone something that you want them to have, or giving them what you know they really want* (assuming it's not the same thing)


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
I believe the answer to this is a personal thing.

Which is why _you_ know _your_ answer.

If you would like to know _my_ answer, then it is to give the gift the person wants. However, I do draw lines, like I am not buying clothing for my 150 lbs sister in her 40s from the childrens department no matter how many times she claims they really do fit her.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

thanks eepster







I did just want to know how other people feel about it.
and







at your sister. those must be some pretty big children


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Can you do both?

The doll for the festive gift and the clock as a house-warming gift when you move into the house?

If not, as it is the first time she has been aware of Christmassy things happening I would go for the doll. I can imagine her screaming in delight at the Bratz doll as she unwraps it and that will be a great memory for her when she thinks about her first Christmas gift.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I personally see gifts in general as being mostly for the recipient, but also about the relationship between the people. So for an adult in particular, I try to get them something they will want but which also fits within my value system - so I wouldn't necessarily buy them say, a really really violent video game.

With kids it is touchier both ways. For a child, a gift is a much bigger deal than it is for a grownup - both emotionally but also because young kids, anyway, don't often have the power to get whatever they want at the store (I guess unless they have a big allowance and a lot of freedom







). For that reason I try to be more careful. At the same time I wouldn't buy a gift that I was totally unhappy to have in my home. (I have relatives that take care of that







)

For this particular one, boy, I don't like the Bratz dolls, don't want to support the company, etc. But I'm also not entirely convinced that they're so awful because they are after all dolls - imaginary play and all that. So I guess for me personally I might go ahead and get it. Another way to handle it would be to see if another family member would be willing to get it.


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## basmom (Jun 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
Can you do both?

The doll for the festive gift and the clock as a house-warming gift when you move into the house?

If not, as it is the first time she has been aware of Christmassy things happening I would go for the doll. I can imagine her screaming in delight at the Bratz doll as she unwraps it and that will be a great memory for her when she thinks about her first Christmas gift.

I like the idea of giving her something she would be madly in love with as a complete surprise gift at Christmas. I love that you have separated out your opinion of the dolls and hers. In this case, I think that if safety and cost aren't prohibitive, then you should go for the the Bratz doll. It is a great way to say, "hey, I know that you think these dolls are really cool and I respect that"...maybe you could make some clothing that is less revealing together - a nice green dress perhaps?

oh yeah - great thought on the Dora clock to celebrate the house-warming and getting her own room


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## sacredmama (Dec 27, 2007)

Just an FYI. Bratz have to take all their product off the shelves after xmas because they are going out of business. Mattel sued them because the guy who designed Bratz was working for Mattel (Barbie) and had signed a contract. Not sure if this would affect your decision, but could be relevant to you??

Personally, I don't think I'd get my daughter a Bratz doll, but I have a son so its easy for me to say.

My son says he wants a new motorcycle. He has like 6 already, I'm not getting him another one. Sometimes I do know that he would like something else more, but he just doesn't know it yet.


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## ricemom3 (Jan 29, 2008)

majikfaerie - I agree with others that have said they would get the gift she wants. I understand not wanting to, I also object to Bratz dolls, and have already been through this with them. My dd wanted them a few years ago (she is now 14, so over them). We got them for her, then I sat down with her and we talked about how they look. It was a delicate conversation and I let her talk first - she said they had way too much makeup on and their clothes were too short and tight. She just liked the pretend play with them and the shoe thing (the feet come off). After that we were ok. My sil has a dd that got her first bratz doll when she was 3. I refuse to get any bratz stuff for her, no matter how badly she wants it. I think she is just too young for it. We just find something else to get her.

Back on subject, I liked the idea of the clock then as a house warming gift for her. That will make the move and her own room even more special.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

As I see it, the point of giving a gift is to bring happiness to the other person, and you're generally going to bring the most happiness by giving the person what _they_ want. (Though sometimes, as a PP says, you might be pretty sure your kid will actually enjoy something else even more, and then I think it's perfectly reasonable to go with your own idea as long as you don't think it will lead to lasting disappointment. I doubt that's the case here, though. Face it - a clock is a pretty boring present.)

Any time there's something one of my kids really, really, really wants, I'm likely to get it (whether it's Christmas time or not), as long I can afford it, it's not harmful, and it isn't going to cause any problems (like taking up too much space in the house.)


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## musikat (Oct 30, 2002)

Personally, I would get her the Bratz Doll, or another doll you don't find as objectionable, over the clock. What about a Dora doll, since she likes that? The difference between a clock (which after all cannot be played with and is not a toy) and a doll for Christmas is huge to a child. JMO

To answer your larger question, I try whenever possible to get them what they want and sometimes to get things I think they would like as well, so a combination. But I wouldn't choose something I like for them over something they want if that were the only choice. My kids do know there are some things we won't flex on. We have a no video games policy in this house, for example, so they don't bother asking.

I think this is a good example of the difference between your two options: last year, my middle son (then almost four) _really really_ wanted the Light Sketcher. I looked at it, thought the idea of an art toy that disappears the artwork in seconds was dumb and bought him something similar (Light Writer) that doesn't disappear. Well he never ever played with the Light Writer (to be fair it was hard to figure out), but still wants the light sketcher a year later. Guess what he's getting for Christmas this year?


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I give gifts that I want the other person to have, not always what they want to have. DP's family used to give gift suggestions and we almost never bought anything they asked for and would get them other stuff. They were always (usually) surprised and delighted at our thoughtfulness (in that we came up with it on our own) and the orignality (that they didn't think of it themselves).

But I hate gift registries, and will not buy something off of one for someone, sorry if I'm giving you a gift its because I want to not because you asked for it. However, I am very attentive to details, so if its March and some mentions that they want/like X I'll remember it for the next holiday and get if for them (if I can).


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

my son is only 13 months old so i have yet to face him wanting presents that i don't like but what i plan to do for xmas time is to give him 4 presents something he wants something he needs something to wear and something to read (i got this idea from another mom who may be on mdc) and for the gifts he may want that i really don't like i may tell family members because i personally don't want to spend money on some things or i may give him money to get whatever he wants or in some cases maybe i would get him what he really wants. i kinda like this idea of giving him a bit of money so he can choose for himself.


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## soposdedi (May 9, 2005)

Well um... I am one who likes giving as many gifts to dd as I can







. I try to give her things that i know will make her







:, as well as more 'practical' or educational things. Is it in your budget to get her both things? If so, why not do that?


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Get her what she really, really, really wants! You and your daughter are good together and there is "plenty of room" for you to allow the Bratz doll. I read your blog so I know the Barbie deal makes the Bratz ok. Your daughter is wickedly cool. You are wickedly cool. It works out!


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

my dd wanted a "my size barbie" she was 4 years old. Now I just thought this thing was ridiculous (aside from being obscenely expensive) and did not buy it. I thought she would get over it and move on to some other interest. She did not.

I realized after 2 years she was never going to get over wanting this stupid doll and if I did not get it for her it would always be the thing she remembered into adulthood as having been deprived of.

So I got a 6 year old a my size barbie.. she was so very very happy and played with that thing for like at least a month or two .. lol.

bottom line, my opinion is give them what they want... especially if they really really really really want it


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

I try to honor my dds' toy wishes, with the exception of things that are just plain impractical and overpriced to me (i.e.-those huge powerwheel jeeps, or the large "lifelike" stuffed ponies that whrrrrrrrr mechanically.)


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

What I always did when they were younger (and we did Santa) was to have *Santa* bring them the one thing that they really, really, really wanted - but that Mom wouldn't buy. That way, at that time, I could still maintain the "not buying that" deal. Now that they know how Santa works, they appreciate the fact that I was able to be flexible enough to allow them their (at the time) dearest desire while still maintaining my standards for the most part.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
Can you do both?

The doll for the festive gift and the clock as a house-warming gift when you move into the house?

that's a good idea








We are scheduled to move into the house on Christmas eve though (we take possession on the 23rd), so I got the idea to combine it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
With kids it is touchier both ways. For a child, a gift is a much bigger deal than it is for a grownup - both emotionally but also because young kids, anyway, don't often have the power to get whatever they want at the store

yah, that's why I'm giving this a lot of thought. We try to share our family's money as belonging to _the family_ which is difficult, when at the end of the day, I control the purse strings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *basmom* 
maybe you could make some clothing that is less revealing together - a nice green dress perhaps?

Oh that I will whip out my old Singer and sew the doll a bunch of clothes that aren't so sexy goes without saying. DD much rathers the frilly princessy dresses in the style of Barbie anyway.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *sacredmama* 
Just an FYI. Bratz have to take all their product off the shelves after xmas because they are going out of business. Mattel sued them because the guy who designed Bratz was working for Mattel (Barbie) and had signed a contract. Not sure if this would affect your decision, but could be relevant to you??

yikes! really? Well, then yeah. If that;s really true, I'd want to get one for her before they become really expensive collector's items.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ricemom3* 
We got them for her, then I sat down with her and we talked about how they look. It was a delicate conversation and I let her talk first - she said they had way too much makeup on and their clothes were too short and tight. She just liked the pretend play with them and the shoe thing (the feet come off).

the _feet come off_!?







: That's weird








That's exactly what we did with Barbies, and with the Bratz videos. Like I said, she knows how I feel about them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Face it - a clock is a pretty boring present.)

huh! wow, you're right. can you believe I actually didn't really think of that. It is boring. I just thought it's a good idea, since we don't have a clock of any form in the house - just what's on the laptop, and she like's Dora. geez I'm









Quote:


Originally Posted by *musikat* 
The difference between a clock (which after all cannot be played with and is not a toy) and a doll for Christmas is huge to a child. JMO

that's a good point, but keeping in mind that my family is somewhat unusual (for a mostly american audience) in that we have never done christmas before. dd only heard about the concept quite recently, and she doesn't know about santa, or anything. so she doesn't have that big built up expectation about xmas. she's not expecting to get any present xmas morning.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I give gifts that I want the other person to have, not always what they want to have. DP's family used to give gift suggestions and we almost never bought anything they asked for and would get them other stuff. They were always (usually) surprised and delighted at our thoughtfulness (in that we came up with it on our own) and the orignality (that they didn't think of it themselves).

thanks for offering an opinion on the other side. DP is in the same POV as yourself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfroggy* 
what i plan to do for xmas time is to give him 4 presents something he wants something he needs something to wear and something to read

nice idea








I just can't see us jumping in to christmas so deep as to start off with 4 presents! (we generally buy presents whenever we feel like, without connection to birthdays or holidays - I've never gotten dd a birthday present). I'm reluctant to set the precedent of presents for christmas. I really love right now that DD is excited about christmas, but has no expectation of presents (she just loves the decorations







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soposdedi* 
Is it in your budget to get her both things? If so, why not do that?

sure. We could technically afford to buy her pretty much anything and everything she wants (at some point sacrificing the level of organic food we get). but I also don't want to just buy everything she gets a whim for







and yeah, i do know that in this case it's just 2 things that aren't really pricey (though she does also want a telescope that *is* really pricey).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
Get her what she really, really, really wants! You and your daughter are good together and there is "plenty of room" for you to allow the Bratz doll. I read your blog so I know the Barbie deal makes the Bratz ok. Your daughter is wickedly cool. You are wickedly cool. It works out!









aw shucks! thanks









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
my dd wanted a "my size barbie" she was 4 years old.<snip>
bottom line, my opinion is give them what they want... especially if they really really really really want it









what's a "my size barbie"? is that a barbie the size of the kid???

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
What I always did when they were younger (and we did Santa) was to have *Santa* bring them the one thing that they really, really, really wanted - but that Mom wouldn't buy. That way, at that time, I could still maintain the "not buying that" deal. Now that they know how Santa works, they appreciate the fact that I was able to be flexible enough to allow them their (at the time) dearest desire while still maintaining my standards for the most part.

nice







but personally I can't see doing the santa thing.
and we don't have any family that could send a present, so that's not an option.

anyway thanks everyone for all those perspectives


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Has anyone checked out Tini Puppini? It's the stuffed dog version of a Bratz doll, IMO, and I can't tell you how often my dd has asked for it! I see a kind of trashy-looking dog, and she sees a stuffed dog she can dress that has lots of pretty clothing and DIAMONDS. (For the record, we're halfway between older girl and younger girl presents). I have been trying to wrap my head around this-I would love not to give this toy, and in most years past dh and I have been fairly strict about Christmas presents (handmade, natural, waldorf). But honestly, sometimes kids just love things for their own reasons, and the toy would bring joy for that reason. My oldest asked not to have anything made out of wood this year, lol.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
that's a good idea








what's a "my size barbie"? is that a barbie the size of the kid???


lol ok i know this is really old school here is one for sale on ebay..

ok, granted this was 15 years ago - stupid doll ... that thing cost me
$100

eta: this thing was never the size of her though, not even when she was 4 - she was always very tall for her age.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

thanks cherie2.







: dd would go crazy over that thing! and it would totally be her size too (she's always been small) i think dd is about 40" tall.
yah, compared to that thing, a bratz is nothing!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Generally, I would get the gift she (or he) wants. There are some lines, but as much I dislike both Bratz and Barbie, I don't think either of those would be over them. (As an example, dh and I let ds1 play some violent videogames, but we would _never_ buy him GTA, because we're both really strongly opposed to it, and don't want it in our house.)

If my kids fall for some really overpriced piece of plastic junk - the kind you just know is going to fall apart in three days - I generally won't buy it, but I'd try to steer them into other things well ahead of the occasion. I'd also explain that I thought the item would be too easy to break. So far, that hasn't been a big problem for me as dd is generally infatuated with glitz for only very short periods of time.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

My mom frequently didn't give us the gifts we really wanted because she just didn't want to look at them (Barbie Dream House) or they might be messy (paint, chalk, markers, generally anything that required adult supervision or clean up). To me, these are cruddy reasons. However, when something actually bumps up against your value system, it's ok to say no. Really. I won't buy Bratz for my daughter or anyone elses. If one were given to her, I'd throw it out before I'd donate it. I find them THAT repulsive.

When my daughter was small, I could see our cozy home full of hand made, carefully selected wooden and cloth toys. There would be a Waldorf doll, playsilks, felt food, and lovely wooden toys to delight the eye and hand. Yeah, I've had to let that go. My daughter shows no interest in these things, even when other kids are playing with them and people (like HER FATHER) won't stop giving her junky plastic gifts and you know, I have to roll with it as best I can. But I draw the line at Bratz.

To me, it's the same as if we had a son who really really really wanted a relistic toy gun. Sorry, it's just no. A really sympathetic, I-know-it's-hard-when-you-can't-have-something-you-want and totally sincere no, but still no.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I'd buy the Bratz doll in a heartbeat. We have toy guns at our house now too. And I'm a pacifist. Ds can choose his own moral compass. My morality doesn't include imposing mine on others.

Pat


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I wouldn't buy Bratz. (Sorry but I don't think a clock is a cool alternative, though.)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I'd buy the Bratz doll in a heartbeat. We have toy guns at our house now too. And I'm a pacifist. Ds can choose his own moral compass. My morality doesn't include imposing mine on others.

Pat

A couple of quotes from the book Mothering Without a Map seem relevant (to me, at least) in response:

"All families, consciously or not, teach children what to value in life."

And this quote, which was originally said by Mary Pipher (who wrote Reviving Ophelia):

"It's become clearer and clearer to me that if families just let the culture happen to them, they'd end up fat, addicted, broke, with a house full of junk, and no time."


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I'd buy the Bratz doll in a heartbeat. We have toy guns at our house now too. And I'm a pacifist. Ds can choose his own moral compass. My morality doesn't include imposing mine on others.

Pat

thanks pat







I considered asking this in unschooling, just to get a perspective that's more where I'm coming from... but i figured it would be moved to here anyway


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Get the Bratz. None of my kids would love a licensed character clock in the long run, because they're just not special enough, but Bratz have a certain- erm, je ne sais quoi. They're like marmite.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Get the Bratz. None of my kids would love a licensed character clock in the long run, because they're just not special enough, but Bratz have a certain- erm, je ne sais quoi. They're like marmite.

yeah, they are like marmite. gross!







(i'm a vegemite kid from way back







)


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

We don't make gifts a big deal. Everyone gets a very small gift, because for us that's really not what the holiday is about. We don't do the whole list and 'what do you want this year' thing at all. I do pick things that I think the kids will enjoy.

There are certain things that we will *never* buy for our children. If I had a daughter, Bratz would be on that list.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I am a parent that most would say "spoils" my child, but bratz is not something that I would want my child to play with. I don't have a girl though, but I do have little little sisters who are nutzo over them and I wouldnt buy one for them either. It's the message that they send that I have a problem with, same as I have a big problem with gun toys, or weapon toys. they are not allowed to be played with in our house. I would normally say to get what they want but when it is something that sends that kind of message..... I don't know. It's like barbies too, I actually really like barbies, when they are dressed appropriately!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

*is your focus on gift giving to give someone something that you want them to have, or giving them what you know they really want*
I'd vote for giving them something that they really want.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm reading this a bit late but, yeah, a clock is a bit boring.









It sits and ticks and looks pretty. It's the kind of thing I'd get ds for no occasion, just because we didn't have a clock and I wanted one available in case he wanted to learn to tell time. More strewing than a real gift.









Anyway, for most gift giving, I don't worry about whether it is THE thing that the person wants. I'm with whoever said that the gift should be a reflection of the relationship and shared interests of the giver and givee. I don't like buying something off a list but I love to see lists to get a better feel for the persons tastes, color preferences, etc.

BUT, buying for MY child is different. I feel the need to honor his wants and tastes and will buy him THE thing he really wants for his birthday or Christmas if it is financially feasible. I don't feel similarly obliged to my nieces and nephews or anyone else. I feel like their parents are in charge of that and I try to find a gift that they will like without worrying about it.

Although our Christmas tends to be a bit bigger that 1 gift per kid, I can relate to wanting to keep it small. I used to get frustrated that so many people would send ds gifts that weren't really things that he was going to enjoy much. He has just always had specific tastes so, although a bin of art supplies is an awesome gift, it just wasn't his thing at age 4. So it was hard to keep the quantity down and get things I knew he would actually enjoy. The first couple years, I didn't buy him anything and he still got a half dozen things. Fortunately, relatives sending gifts has petered out somewhat. And since ds is older, people are a bit better about tailoring gifts to him, not just sending generic toddler toys that caught their eye.

It's also awkward if you spend Christmas with other kids and there is a big discrepancy in the number of gifts.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

We always ask what the person wants for giving them a gift. Yesterday my MIL asked me what I'd like, I told her the title of a Midwifery book that I would really enjoy. For our son who is only 17 months old we are getting him some books, a potty chair, booster seat that you can fold to take with you, and a few outfits that he needs for winter. As for the Bratz dolls, they are being taken off the shelves. I have seen them, and personally no daughter of mine would have one. They are very, well, slutty.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennTheMomma* 
They are very, well, slutty.

What makes a doll "slutty"? Clothes, makeup, faded jeans, length of skirt, length of top? Some of us may resemble that comment.









Pat


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## brooks97 (Apr 24, 2008)

My rule of thumb is if what my kids want are really reasonable and within the budget, sure, I'd get them.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I used to be anti-Barbie but then I had a friend who really, really pressured her dd to not like them. Her dd really watched what she said around her mom. I didn't want that relationship with my child.
Of course, my dd spends most of her life dressed as a princess, Disney, Barbie. (I get so much crap from crunchy mamas around here.) And I'm getting her Baby Alive.







It's what she wants.

PS I read your blog and dd loves the pictures and stories about your girl. They are a few months apart and I guess dd relates.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I hate Bratz dolls. I despise them.

AND

I'd buy my daughter one if that's the one thing she REALLY wanted for Christmas. (Instead what she wants changes daily, and is probably going to involve me speed knitting sweaters and shoes for her menagerie of stuffed animals!)

For me, it's about honoring what the person wants. I don't find Bratz worse than Barbie, honestly. Thankfully, dd has shown little interest in either.


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## rahans (Feb 29, 2008)

I haven't read through this thread completely. I was going to say that I would get her what she wants (within a reasonable cost).......until I read that it was a Bratz doll. Personally, I draw the line at Bratz - I would not get it for my DD even if she really really wanted it.
What about a Disney Princess or Barbie clock (or doll)? It's not Bratz but closer to that type of looking doll than Dora.


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## cherimoya (Mar 23, 2008)

I do both (as long as it stays in budget). DS has been talking non-stop about "Martian Matter" because one of his friend's got one for his recent B'day. I thought Martian Matter looked silly but once I saw that it was only $15, I thought why not! I have also got him some really nice toys that I know he'll like and I prefer (like Lego).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'd probably just get the Bratz doll. Another option is the My Style Barbie doll, which is Barbie's answer to Bratz and looks JUST LIKE Bratz, but they fit regular Barbie clothes too, which might give you more clothing options. Assuming they're still around and your daughter would like that just as well. Also assuming the Bratz dolls don't fit the Barbie clothes? I honestly don't know. If the Bratz dolls can't wear Barbie clothes, and Bratz is going out of business, then a My Style Barbie might be a better choice just because clothing will still be available. But I'm not enough of an expert. I thought my daughter had Bratz dolls, but she told me they're the My Style Barbie ones. I didn't buy them and I can't tell the difference.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
What makes a doll "slutty"? Clothes, makeup, faded jeans, length of skirt, length of top? Some of us may resemble that comment.









Pat

I was wondering that too.









funny how so many people said they'd get their kids whatever they want, as long as it's not bratz.
my personal choice is not to have my personal opinions forcefully imposed on my kid.
and for us, the situation is quite different.
my child isn't asking for *anything* _for christmas_. she really has very little concept of christmas at all, and no reason to think that she would get a christmas present.
I understand that for a lot of people living in western countries (as most of you are in north america), it's a hard concept to grab. but my child has never celebrated christmas, or even been exposed to people who do before. i've never given her a birthday present or asked her what she wants for her birthday.
if she wants something, we consider the cost, the ethics, the value, etc. and mostly we get it, regardless of any holiday or event.
dd recently learnt that xmas exists, and i thought it would be really nice for her to wake up on christmas morning and find a wrapped present under the tree (at her request, I bought a little 24" plastic tree and some decorations.)

I think it will be a Bratz doll, just because that's what she wants most in general. she's been asking for a bratz for a good long while now, and i've been holding off because the ick me. but when i think about it, they're not really any worse than barbie, and at least with bratz, they don't look really human, so there's even less chance of her identifying with it.

she herself, when i commented about how i feel about bratz, said "but mama, they're not people, they're _bratz_


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'd probably just get the Bratz doll. Another option is the My Style Barbie doll, which is Barbie's answer to Bratz and looks JUST LIKE Bratz, but they fit regular Barbie clothes too, which might give you more clothing options. Assuming they're still around and your daughter would like that just as well. Also assuming the Bratz dolls don't fit the Barbie clothes? I honestly don't know. If the Bratz dolls can't wear Barbie clothes, and Bratz is going out of business, then a My Style Barbie might be a better choice just because clothing will still be available. But I'm not enough of an expert. I thought my daughter had Bratz dolls, but she told me they're the My Style Barbie ones. I didn't buy them and I can't tell the difference.

I'll be sewing all the clothes for the bratz on my machine anyways, so it doesn't make a difference really. I sew loads of barbie clothes for dd as well. (most of DD's barbies are dreadlocked, tattooed, with bindis, leg hair drawn on, really feral hippie clothes, etc anyway







she's done it all herself, btw. they all started out looking like normal barbies.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't see why not getting a Bratz doll even though the kid wants one is "forcing opinions" on her. What if she wanted a big fat joint for christmas? or a twenty year old boyfriend? where do you draw the line?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't see why not getting a Bratz doll even though the kid wants one is "forcing opinions" on her. What if she wanted a big fat joint for christmas? or a twenty year old boyfriend? where do you draw the line?


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
Okay, while I would like answers in general, I will say what this specific case is:
I thought of getting DD a Dora the Explorer Wall Clock that I saw pretty cheap. I thought, she'd probably really like that, and she's about of an age to start learning to tell time (she's shown interest already), and since we're buying a house and she'll get her own room, it made sense.
but
while I know she'll like that present,(she's into Dora), and it's what *I* want her to have, I know that what she really wants is a Bratz doll. okay, that wasn't entirely accurate. she really really REALLY wants a Bratz doll







I personally don't like Bratz, but I'm respecting DD in her right to like them.

Without reading the other replies first . . . I would get her the Bratz doll if it were my family. And maybe the wall clock for a surprise in her new room when you move into the house? I just think it can be so much fun to get the thing you really, really want. I know Bratz are like public enemy #1 around here, so I'm off to read the other replies . . .

Either way I hope you and your daughter have a very happy holiday!


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't see why not getting a Bratz doll even though the kid wants one is "forcing opinions" on her. What if she wanted a big fat joint for christmas? or a twenty year old boyfriend? where do you draw the line?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't see why not getting a Bratz doll even though the kid wants one is "forcing opinions" on her. What if she wanted a big fat joint for christmas? or a twenty year old boyfriend? where do you draw the line?

well first of all, think up some better examples coz those two things are against the law









and me personally not really liking something is hardly grounds for not letting my kid have it. I also don't really like christmas trees, but we got one of them.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
I'll be sewing all the clothes for the bratz on my machine anyways, so it doesn't make a difference really. I sew loads of barbie clothes for dd as well. (most of DD's barbies are dreadlocked, tattooed, with bindis, leg hair drawn on, really feral hippie clothes, etc anyway







she's done it all herself, btw. they all started out looking like normal barbies.

LEG HAIR?????







: Bless her little cotton socks.

Oh, you know that the rock bratz look more, erm, like people she'd be accustomed to seeing, right? I quite like them actually







: but then, my daughter is three and thinks that Sleeping Beauty is the guardian spirit of a tree, so I'm probably not the right person to talk to about popular culture.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
well first of all, think up some better examples coz those two things are against the law









and me personally not really liking something is hardly grounds for not letting my kid have it. I also don't really like christmas trees, but we got one of them.

Well, if I were going to be coming up with examples on where to draw A line, we should talk Thomas. I'm not particularily fond of Thomas myself, but no surprise DS adores it. I have bought many Thomas books, a magnetic playset, a video, and his backpack has Thomas on it. I even let DH get Thomas paper plates etc for DS's second b-day.

However, I draw the line at the actual toy trains, and a train table (my parents would love to get him a train table.) My reason are:

I do not trust the safety of them after 2 rounds of recalls.
I have no place to put a train table in my small house.
When DS and I just _need_ to get out, but the weather is bad I can count on him having a great time at the train table in the bookstore, with other kids to play with. If he had it at home as well I doubt the one at the bookstore would be a destination anymore.
So, that's how I draw a line, I don't know where Bratz falls in relation to your line.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

see a wooden toy train set I don't allow either, but that's simply because we don't have room for it (we live in a one-room-cabin atm). i'm not banning the toy as such, it's merely a restriction imposed by reality. physics also lends itself to some restrictions. we can't drive the car to the moon, no matter how much dd wants to. Letting her drive the car on her own would be ridiculous. she can't even reach the peddles. pretty much anything against the law is not gonna happen. but all these things aren't *me* drawing the line. they're external lines I have little to no control over.

my personal line... for toys? provided physical safety, finances, space, physics, etc are accounted for? I don't think I have one.
Sure, there's stuff I don't *like*. I have various reasons, depending on the item. and in pretty much all cases, I talk to my DD about those reasons. I tell her what my opinions are. we talk a lot about stuff, and I do my best to give her a good grounding in critical thinking. she knows how to work out what is my opinion, and what is fact and what is relative. we talk about things that are made in china, plastics, ethics, the images certain items project.
about barbies and bratz, we've already talked about how they dress and look, and the body shape. I'm not really worried about her getting a negative body image, or becoming sexualised or any of that kind of stuff. simply because i know my child. I know that she has very good role models in real life, and her self-esteem is strong and confident, in herself, and in women as they really are.







.

the only issue with bratz is that I personally don't like them. and I personaly don't like buying new toys. that's my thing. there's no rationality behind it really, just my personal opinion.

so, yeah. i'm trawling ebay for some good used brats


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

Where do you live? I may have some I could ship to you if shipping costs aren't too high.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

thanks annalisa







i'm in australia though, so shipping would probably be prohibitive. i've no idea though









perhaps i should start a thread inviting all the mamas whose kids have unwanted bratz that we're offering a bratz depository service









I was already outbid on ebay







keep trying!


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

I'll look it up and check!

The funny thing is that we're not sure why we have the little things. Libby isn't interested in any doll that isn't a baby and my teenage ex-SIL thinks they're creepy. I think I must've inherited them from my well-meaning goddaughter. She got some from her dad when she was around six (she's 10) and was absolutely terrified of them. I remember her opening them up and telling her mum, "I can't have these, these are bad bad toys. They're too scary!"







:

Isn't it funny how our kids latch on to the unlikeliest things?

Edit: Eep! I've just checked Royal Mail's shipping and it's a NIGHTMARE. I'd really love to pass them on but I can't afford package shipping rates. Fancy a trip up to jolly old England in the interest of some collagen-infused dolls?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

annalisa, i just saw your edit now








thanks anyway.

Just to update: I bought dd some Bratz for xmas on eBay. they were pretty cheap - I got a bag of 10 assorted bratz dolls for $30 australian. (which is like, 23us or something). I took out the 4 nicest ones (one of each bratz) and i'll sell the other 6 as a bundle on ebay again, possibly even making my money, or most of it, back









the plan is to wrap the dolls in shiny paper and leave them under the tree while she's asleep on xmas eve, so she can find them in the morning. i can't wait to see the look on her face, which will of course be recorded on my blog









actually, i played with the dolls a bit when i sorted out which ones to keep and which ones to sell back, choosing the nicest outfits to keep... the feet coming of is really freaky, but i couldn't really see all that much wrong with these dolls. they don't look all that human to start with - the heads are grossly oversized. they wear a LOT of make-up, but i don't see that as a problem. we anyway live in an area where it's really unusual to see people wearing make-up at all. and most of the clothes on the dolls were stuff similar to what I would wear (low-rise trousers, singlet tops).

anyway, now i have the impossible task of waiting till xmas to give her the dolls!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I've never gotten involed in my children's play needs. (Well, I did once with my oldest, and it was wrong). As an adult, that is not my realm.

I trust my children to know their play needs. I might not understand them, but I respect them.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Good for you.

Bratz will be a blip in your child's life, but your respect will be forever.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
annalisa, i just saw your edit now








thanks anyway.

Just to update: I bought dd some Bratz for xmas on eBay. they were pretty cheap - I got a bag of 10 assorted bratz dolls for $30 australian. (which is like, 23us or something). I took out the 4 nicest ones (one of each bratz) and i'll sell the other 6 as a bundle on ebay again, possibly even making my money, or most of it, back









the plan is to wrap the dolls in shiny paper and leave them under the tree while she's asleep on xmas eve, so she can find them in the morning. i can't wait to see the look on her face, which will of course be recorded on my blog









actually, i played with the dolls a bit when i sorted out which ones to keep and which ones to sell back, choosing the nicest outfits to keep... the feet coming of is really freaky, but i couldn't really see all that much wrong with these dolls. they don't look all that human to start with - the heads are grossly oversized. they wear a LOT of make-up, but i don't see that as a problem. we anyway live in an area where it's really unusual to see people wearing make-up at all. and most of the clothes on the dolls were stuff similar to what I would wear (low-rise trousers, singlet tops).

anyway, now i have the impossible task of waiting till xmas to give her the dolls!


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
well first of all, think up some better examples coz those two things are against the law









and me personally not really liking something is hardly grounds for not letting my kid have it. I also don't really like christmas trees, but we got one of them.

well the reason i picked those examples is to over emphasize the fact that you don't just give things to children just because they want them, especially if it is something that represents an image that may be inappropriate for a child. And I agree with you, that just because you dont like something is not reason enough to not let a child have it, I suppose it boils down to WHY you don't like it. Personally, I don't like the Bratz dolls because they set a bad example. they dress like little tarts and make the whole idea of acting like a brat cool. IMO anyway.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Obviously , the last thing one wants is a little tart.


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

I'm glad you worked it out for yourself. It's not an easy road to navigate. I slid on the slippery slope of giving them what THEY want a while back, dd was probably 8? Now we're all about fitting their needs into our budget. It's important to make sure they don't cross certain lines, moral ones more than anything else, but EVERYTHING comes with a cost hidden behind the price tag. Electronics that rely on minerals mined in places where people (and the environment) are mal-treated, inequitous pay for factory labor, family separation for factory workers, exposure to toxins in toy production, repetitive motion injuries to child workers, you name it, it's out there. The only stuff that I've found that isn't are local/US/European/Australian made items made from totally sustainable materials. Even glue comes with a cost! ETA: here in the US we have 10,000 villages, a store that specializes in stuff from fair trade/cooperative made items, including toys. Pretty safe bet!

As far as the problem of not getting what she really really wants, that's pretty minimal if her other 'love based' needs are being met. I think it's ok to make/take a stand, and I also think it's ok to let kids have a say in their gifts. I think your idea of the clock was cute, but as a surprise on move in day more than a gift from you to her to celebrate christ's birth, or the beginning of winter or the winter solstice, or whatever. It is a bit too utilitarian. However, I've made lots of gifts of clothes/socks/undies/long johns, books, food for dh (specialty items), even basics for myself like a new bra or whatever.

It's important to me to make everyone's needs part of your plan, not to work your plan around their needs. Does that make sense?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
well the reason i picked those examples is to over emphasize the fact that you don't just give things to children just because they want them, especially if it is something that represents an image that may be inappropriate for a child. And I agree with you, that just because you dont like something is not reason enough to not let a child have it, I suppose it boils down to WHY you don't like it. Personally, I don't like the Bratz dolls because they set a bad example. they dress like little tarts and make the whole idea of acting like a brat cool. IMO anyway.

so why don't i like brats? because my first viewing of the tv series seemed waaay over the top.
i've since watched more of them, and watched the bratz movies. the movies really aren't all that bad at all.
lovely that you say they dress like tarts, just 2 posts after I said that most of the clothes the dolls were wearing is similar to clothes I would wear. (well, not the shoes, i'm perpetually barefoot. the shoes are freaky imo)

when i really had a look at them, they're really not all that bad. they DONT perpetuate "acting like brats". they don't act like brats. not even in the show. the reason they are called bratz, is because the "villain" in the show, who owns a competing magazine, called them brats. they took the name as a kind of mockery of that; a way to show they weren't upset by the villain calling them brats. sounds quite healthy to me.

the show actually espouses qualities like friendship, honesty, trust, etc. its about 4 girls who are "best friends forever" and look out for each other. they're just regular high school girls, who are a little obsessed with fashion. if i can find any criticism of them, its too much make-up and weird shoes.









(yes, i've really been looking into this).


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Good for you.

Bratz will be a blip in your child's life, but your respect will be forever.

thankyou. I agree.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
(yes, i've really been looking into this).









I think it's wonderful that you went to the trouble to research this.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I think you did the right thing.

I get the kids to write lists of suggestions of what they'd like. That way, I can choose some things that are on their lists, but that I consider decent purchases. That said, there was one toy that dd#2 really, really wants, that was not first on my list, but I know it is important to her, so I bought it. It's not offensive, just not what I consider a great toy. But is is great to her - or at least, she thinks it will be.

I recall vividly one year that my mother decided that she was calling the shots over gifts, with no more 'horsey rubbish' (we were all horse-crazy). It was the most miserable Christmas in my life. I still resent it dreadfully - years later.

She bought us all kinds of stuff that she thought we'd like - or at any rate that she thought we _should_ like. I threw it all in the back of the cupboard and fumed inwardly about it for months. And years later, I still remember. It made me determined to never, ever do that to my kids. Even if they choose things that don't rock my world, that's OK. I cannot control their minds or their preferences, just as my mother could not end my passion for horses by refusing to acknowledge it! I am still crazy about horses now, and so are my own kids, so it most certainly did not work.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
the show actually espouses qualities like friendship, honesty, trust, etc. its about 4 girls who are "best friends forever" and look out for each other. they're just regular high school girls, who are a little obsessed with fashion. if i can find any criticism of them, its too much make-up and weird shoes.









I actually watched one of the movies on TV. It wasn't bad at all and I kind of liked it.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

majikfaerie;12828087
the show actually espouses qualities like friendship said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif[/IMG]
> 
> (yes, i've really been looking into this).


The shoe thing is weird. But it looks to me that it's pretty cool. The Barbie shoes always fall off, kwim? Those babies have the advantage. Once you plug 'em in, you're good to go.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Barbie shoes fall off and then are almost impossible to find. It's the difficulty finding them again that bugs me.

When my dd was really young, this is one of the things I said - I'd NEVER get her a Bratz doll. And I'm not a fan and I haven't gotten her one but really only because it isn't her thing. But I have had a change of heart since that time. I've decided it isn't my job to mold my daughter into what I want her to be - it's my pleasure to be able to watch her become who she's meant to be. So now I sit back and relax and let her choose her own interests.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

majikfaerie said:


> so why don't i like brats? because my first viewing of the tv series seemed waaay over the top.
> i've since watched more of them, and watched the bratz movies. the movies really aren't all that bad at all.
> lovely that you say they dress like tarts, just 2 posts after I said that most of the clothes the dolls were wearing is similar to clothes I would wear. (well, not the shoes, i'm perpetually barefoot. the shoes are freaky imo)QUOTE]
> 
> Well, I am sorry if that is offensive, but in my opinion they DO dress like little tarts, and I think that image in general is a poor one to be any type of a role model to children.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

go gently mrspineu. I am not a tart, nor am I a bad role model to my child.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I am entitled to my opinion, and I have stated what that is. It is only an opinion. You are entitled to yours as well. I do think that when you choose to dress that way that not everyone is going to be receptive. How you dress is a reflection of who you are, and if you dress like a tart, then people are going to think that you are one. That doesn't mean that you are one, by any means. But that does mean that that is the impression that you are going to give off. That is why I think it is inappropriate for a child to think that it is okay to dress that way. Like it or not, people judge you upon how you present yourself to the world. I think that a good lesson for children is to teach them that whatever way they choose to look should be a form of self expression. Hopefully, they do not want to express themselves in such a sexual manner.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I think prohibiting them would make them more attractive anyway. Let it run it's course and it may well not stick if they're out of sync with the family's values.


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## TEAK's Mom (Apr 25, 2003)

majikfaerie, I agree that you made a wonderful choice. Knowing the little I know about you and your family, I don't think that any doll would weaken your dd's sense of herself.

By the way, I've seen pictures of majikfaerie, and she is beautiful. Her clothes reflect that. She's more of a goddess than a tart, imo.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

what makes a woman seem to be "a tart" has very little to do with the way she dresses; it's the way she expresses herself. The qualities generally noted as "tarty" can be exuded equally while wearing the most prim and proper, modest clothing available or more revealing clothing. Attitude is everything. and dolls do not have attitude. they are inanimate objects.

Further, I do not believe that occasional exposure to dolls or even the bratz cartoon (in which they don't act like tarts at all, if you've ever really watched it - a bit ditzy, yes, but not tarty), would be enough to break down the self confidence and realistic body images instilled in my child by my respect and trust, and constant exposure to real women.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom* 
majikfaerie, I agree that you made a wonderful choice. Knowing the little I know about you and your family, I don't think that any doll would weaken your dd's sense of herself.

By the way, I've seen pictures of majikfaerie, and she is beautiful. Her clothes reflect that. She's more of a goddess than a tart, imo.

there exists no emoticon to express the depths of my blushing.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

As a reader of majikfaerie's blog, I can kind of guess that Littletree will most likely NOT be acting out "tarty" or "bratty" scenes with her dolls. I picture something along the lines of their hair being dyed and dreadlocked, figuring out if they would enjoy being hung on the clothes line, with clothes pins. I picture mud baths and clean up in the closest puddle. I see them sporting some hand-drawn tattoos and maybe a piercing. I imagine that the removable feet will be an endless source of musings from that little girl...feet transplants, anyone?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

goodness! you really do read my blog!
and yeah, sounds like my DD to a tee.









recently she was playing with her barbies and I over heard this conversation between the 2 dolls:
barbie 1 to barbie 2, "now, your water broke, and that's fine. the important thing is just to relax, and breathe. as long as you relax then your vagina will open up and stretch and the baby will come out easily. but if you get stressed and start to freak out, then your body gets stressed and then your muscles tense and that makes it hurt a lot and then you might not get the baby out and then the doctors try to cut your vagina to get the baby out and it's terrible, or worse, they cut your belly! but I _won't_ let that happen, all you have to do is relax, okay, and trust. your body can do this!"

barbie 2 starts moaning a bit and grunting, then easily births her "baby" - a piece of rose quartz from DD's crystal collection.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Which reminds of how GI Joe was always knocking up my Flower doll.

She's the hippie in the middle -- who actually wore a pink felt floppy hat. (Not that dumb straw one). (PS do not google-image World of Love Dolls with kids in the room.







)

http://www.barbigirl.com/LOVE.JPG

My Sunshine Family dolls were all about the homebirth. They even came with their own spinning wheel and hippie camper:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...n%26safe%3Doff


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Hopefully, they do not want to express themselves in such a sexual manner.
I don't intend to judge my child's "sexual expression".

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

majikfaerie, I love your article *"Letting Children Find Their Own Strength"* about *TRUST*, on your blog: http://www.eolife.org/article.php?ai...fe05737080d509

Pat


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I don't intend to judge my child's "sexual expression".

Pat

No? Suppose they decide when they are, say, 12 to have a webcam set up in their bedrooms so that they can "sexually express" themselves on the internet? You have no opinion about that? or if they decide that they would like to have sex unprotected. No problem?


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
What do you think about giving presents?
Do you try to give your kids what you think they will really want, even if it's something you don't really want to get, or do you get them what you want them to have (of course, said item would be something you know they will like, just not _the thing_ they're lusting after in the toy store)?

I want to get DD a present for christmas (she's never gotten one before), I saw something that I'd really like her to have, and I know she'll love it, and it's practical to boot. But I know there's something else she really really _really_ wants.


can you give her both?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
No? Suppose they decide when they are, say, 12 to have a webcam set up in their bedrooms so that they can "sexually express" themselves on the internet? You have no opinion about that? or if they decide that they would like to have sex unprotected. No problem?

yes, and what if they want to have sex with 90 year old men in the middle of the street. LOL

Pat


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Phew what a long thread....

I just wanted to chime in after reading majikfaerie's blog that she is very obviously living in a different culture (than here in the US) and people's attitudes (from what I saw on the blog) are much different and appear more healthy than in America.

That said I don't think OP has anything to worry about with bratz.

majikfaerie you and your DD are so beautiful, and after seeing your friends on your blog and all the wonderful natural beauty, I think whatever you're doing over there where you are is wonderful and healthy.

I only wish American women would be so bold.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
No? Suppose they decide when they are, say, 12 to have a webcam set up in their bedrooms so that they can "sexually express" themselves on the internet? You have no opinion about that? or if they decide that they would like to have sex unprotected. No problem?

That's a bit of a jump from playing with a Bratz doll.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That's a bit of a jump from playing with a Bratz doll.

It is not just about the bratz doll, it is about not judging your childs "sexual expression" which can mean so many things. Anyhow, whatever. I read her blog too, and yes she sounds like a wonderful mother and her daughter is absolutely beautiful and free spirited. I still think that bratz dolls are dressed like little skanks, and I think that general style is tartish. It is up to each individual whether or not they feel it is an appropriate image to project onto children. I happen to think that it is not. I also think that drinking alcohol around children is inappropriate, however I know that lots of people do it and it doesn't make them bad parents. It is completely a matter of opinion.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I know you said you've been researching it, but I just did a paper on this a couple of semesters ago (I wish I could link my articles but they are academic papers and you have to be registered through a university that has bought the rights to them to view it)

There is some psychology research out there suggesting that Bratz contribute to "age compression" (as academics call it) and "Kids Growing Older Younger" (as advertisers call it). Basically it is the sexualization of children and introducing children to adult views of sex pre-puberty, which leads young people to act in a sexual manner before they are ready to emotionally/physically and mentally deal with these things.

I would never purchase a Bratz doll because they are very materialistic and they promote girls as being valued for their looks alone. Now majikfaerie's daughter is obviously being raised in a manner that strengthens her resolve against the media's influence. Unfortunatley many, many girls are not which leads them to buy into the values expressed by the dolls. My dollars are my vote. I vote no for these dolls.

But since Majikfaerie bought them on ebay, she didn't give a cent to the manufacturer... and also they will probably be wiped out by Barbie anyway... I just wanted to point out there is research about these dolls that is more negative than just "they are ugly and wear too much makeup", it's just not available to the general public (although it should be).


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Which reminds of how GI Joe was always knocking up my Flower doll.

She's the hippie in the middle -- who actually wore a pink felt floppy hat. (Not that dumb straw one). (PS do not google-image World of Love Dolls with kids in the room.







)

http://www.barbigirl.com/LOVE.JPG

My Sunshine Family dolls were all about the homebirth. They even came with their own spinning wheel and hippie camper:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...n%26safe%3Doff

I _love_those! awesome!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
majikfaerie, I love your article *"Letting Children Find Their Own Strength"* about *TRUST*, on your blog: http://www.eolife.org/article.php?ai...fe05737080d509

Pat

thankyou









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
No? Suppose they decide when they are, say, 12 to have a webcam set up in their bedrooms so that they can "sexually express" themselves on the internet? You have no opinion about that? or if they decide that they would like to have sex unprotected. No problem?

See, you're coming from a totally different reality.
it's like saying "what if your child ends up taking herion at age 12 because she saw you having a few glasses of wine at dinner?"
It just wouldn't happen. There are soooo many more factors involved. No child is going to express themselves sexually on a webcam at age 12, _simply because they were allowed to play with Bratz._
Said child would have to have a whole lot more going on that would lead to such a behaviour. and honestly; I would like to believe that parents on MDC would be raising their children in a loving, respectful and gentle manner, such that the mere playing with a doll couldn't break their self-esteem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Phew what a long thread....

I just wanted to chime in after reading majikfaerie's blog that she is very obviously living in a different culture (than here in the US) and people's attitudes (from what I saw on the blog) are much different and appear more healthy than in America.

That said I don't think OP has anything to worry about with bratz.

majikfaerie you and your DD are so beautiful, and after seeing your friends on your blog and all the wonderful natural beauty, I think whatever you're doing over there where you are is wonderful and healthy.

I only wish American women would be so bold.

goodness. thankyou too








I do live in a pretty different place than a lot of western people.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
I know you said you've been researching it, but I just did a paper on this a couple of semesters ago (I wish I could link my articles but they are academic papers and you have to be registered through a university that has bought the rights to them to view it)

There is some psychology research out there suggesting that Bratz contribute to "age compression" (as academics call it) and "Kids Growing Older Younger" (as advertisers call it). Basically it is the sexualization of children and introducing children to adult views of sex pre-puberty, which leads young people to act in a sexual manner before they are ready to emotionally/physically and mentally deal with these things.

I would never purchase a Bratz doll because they are very materialistic and they promote girls as being valued for their looks alone. Now majikfaerie's daughter is obviously being raised in a manner that strengthens her resolve against the media's influence. Unfortunatley many, many girls are not which leads them to buy into the values expressed by the dolls. My dollars are my vote. I vote no for these dolls.

But since Majikfaerie bought them on ebay, she didn't give a cent to the manufacturer... and also they will probably be wiped out by Barbie anyway... I just wanted to point out there is research about these dolls that is more negative than just "they are ugly and wear too much makeup", it's just not available to the general public (although it should be).

about this reserach, thankyou for sharing that. it's very interesting. and as I said before, I don't believe for one second that these dolls alone could 'sexualise' a child. it would be impossible to conduct such a study, because you can't find children in a vacuum









But these studies are done mostly on children who are raised in western countries, by parents who are relying on a largely damaged society to provide their self-image.

When a girl's mother is herself unconfident in herself, and has a low self-image, which can manifest itself in many ways, it is not surprising that the girl would learn this kind of behaviour, and latch onto dolls like Bratz to model themselves on, thus becoming self-degrading behaviour, as the image of Bratz is virtually impossible to maintain on a real person.

anyway, end of the day, it's pretty irrelevant to my child, living in the environment we live in.

and the end of the day is that my question was about buying presents for children, and where/ how people draw lines on that.
This most interesting discussion has helped me to see where I'm really at, and come to a clear conclusion.
thankyou


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Yes, I realize that a Bratz doll cannot alone corrupt a child. I did not say any such thing. Can it contribute to the sexualization of a child? Perhaps. I understand what you are saying about a 12 year old taking heroin cannot be due to parents having a few drinks, and I agree. What I do not agree with is those who would say that they do not intend to "judge" their children's choices. My point was, would you not have any opinions about your child's "choices" even if they were ones such as drugs or other things that are harmful to them?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

can you not see the difference between opinion and judgement?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
What I do not agree with is those who would say that they do not intend to "judge" their children's choices. My point was, would you not have any opinions about your child's "choices" even if they were ones such as drugs or other things that are harmful to them?

I prefer to deal with reality. Not "what ifs". Your reality may be different than ours.







I can't see a Bratz doll being "harmful" to a child. I'm sure I was "sexualized" well before "appropriate" (whatever that means). However, I still "Found My Own Strength", and have been happily married for 26 years. I TRUST children to make their own choices for their own body and their own life, just as I trust you to make choices for yours.









Pat


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I understand that these are whatifs. I know the difference between opinions and judgement. I was replying to the comment that someone made that they would not judge their child's sexual expression. I just posed the question of whether or not that includes when the expression is something that is harmful. That alone is what I was talking about.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I thought "sexual expression" meant like what they wear and whether they wear makeup and how they wear their hair. Not putting up sexually explicit (and at the age mentioned, illegal) material up on the internet.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I would think that sexual expression would cover all sorts of things that go far beyond image.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

If anyone is interested for an update; it's christmas morning here, and DD woke up to find a present under the tree. here's photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/majikfa...7610606581883/
(it's the whole of december in that album, so you have to scroll to the bottom)


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

(she's busy right now drawing tattoos on them







and they already have haircuts)


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Great! I'm glad she loves them.

Thanks for the update. I was wondering if you had them wrapped yet or not as it's 1am here and I wasn't sure if you were ahead or behind!


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

thanks








I was a bit stressed about the wrapping paper, since I coudn't stand to buy paper, and I didn't have any stored up (I usually save wrapping paper). Then I thought of wrapping them in some sparkly material I had in my sewing basket


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
(she's busy right now drawing tattoos on them







and they already have haircuts)

We are _sooo_ going to need follow up pictures now.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

will do...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

:

Pat


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I love when 'research' about toys and sexuality meets actual parenting.

You go.









Maybe the rest of academia will at some point catch up with those of us who actually interact, respect & communbicate with our children. If I read one more word about toys alone 'corrupting' children, I will puke.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

oh, I took some photos of DD putting tattoos on her bratz this week. now i just have to upload them.

ETA
oh, and the coolest thing; we were in a charity thrift store yesterday, and i saw that exact same clock for sale for $4!







: in perfect condition. just needed a new battery (the new ones don't come with batteries anyway). So DD got both in the end, and she's totally obsessed with learning to tell time on an analogue clock now too


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