# Friend's idea of GD is going to be the death of me.



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, God. Somebody help me. I'm not sure if I wanna







, :LOL or







.
I have a near, dear friend who's idea of gentle discipline is basically letting her child do whatever she wants whenever she wants. It is so frustrating I don't know how much longer I can take it. One example: her 4 yo. daughter was jumping around in a tiny playpen with two babies in it during a playgroup. The father of one of the girls very kindly asked her to stop because he feared she'd hurt his baby. She jumped out of the playpen, ran right up to this man, got right IN HIS FACE and SCREAMED: "YOU DON'T TALK TO ME THAT WAY! YOU'RE NOT MY MOM AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" She proceeded to run out of the room, slam the door, and all was quiet for a few seconds. She then stormed back in, went right back over to him again, and yelled, "DON'T YOU DARE TALK TO ME THAT WAY! YOU CANNOT TALK TO ME THAT WAY!" And turned around and started playing again. Her mom's response? "Aww, she's a very sensitive child."
Her kid talks like this to people all the time. Just the other day they were in the toy store. Her child got a baby stroller off the shelf and sat in it and scooted herself up and down the aisle. A kind employee walked over and gently asked her to get out of the stroller because he didn't want her to break it. She proceeded to scream at him, tell him he had no right to tell her what to do, and her mom said: "That's right, M. He has no right to tell you what to do. You can ride in that stroller, because I said so." So the child jumps out of the stroller, runs over to the man, shakes her finger in his face and says "See? You're not my mom, and you can't tell me what to do." Mom: "Yes, that's right, M." She also lets her child climb all over everything in every store they go to... scales the scaffolding at the Home Depot, climbs on the shelves and counters at Target....... and my friend gets infuriated when someone tells her daughter to stop.
I just don't know what to do. Our friendship was on rocks for a long time, and we finally cleared the air about our own issues. I don't know if I can bring up the "sacred cow" (aka. parenting issues) and not scare her off for good







:


----------



## village idiot (Feb 19, 2003)

Geez, that's a tough situation. I feel really, really bad for the little girl. She will have a hard time of it as she gets older.


----------



## lilmiss'mama (Mar 8, 2002)

Very strange. Where do you think she has learned to talk like that? Do you think that in the privacy of their home her mom speaks to her like that?
As far as your friendship...anything you do to try and get that little girl some help would be being the best friend you could be. Do you really want to hang out with someone like that and expose your child to that? That mom sounds







. Good luck! Whatever you decide, say nothing or say something, it will be hard. However, what can you live with?


----------



## gotbreastmilk (Mar 3, 2003)

ugh that would be hard!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

You might approach it this way:
Explain that df has one standard of acceptable behavior, and you have a different one (no judgment there). Sometimes you feel that df's standard of acceptable behavior includes activities that you deem to be DANGEROUS for *your child (not necessarily hers....you can suggest that maybe her child is more coordinated, whatever). This would include climbing on scaffolding, counters, etc. And when her child is allowed to do these things around your child, it makes it very difficult for you to keep your child safe.

That could at least open the conversation about some actual behaviors, but would not address the overriding issues about her parenting. I don't know if I'd have the guts to address that--but if you do have the guts, you would be doing that little girl a favor







:


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

I would probably run screaming from this woman!

What's gonna happen when this kids does something to your child and you feel the need to step in?

Maybe you could ease up on seeing her for a while. This child will get better the older she gets. We hope!


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Perhaps since she perceives her child as sensitive, it might be helpful for you to read "The Highly Sensitive Child?"

It might give you some insights into her parenting decisions.

HTH


----------



## manitoba_mommy (Jun 20, 2003)

Wow, reminds me of Dudley Dursley from Harry Potter!
You know, I understand kids who have trouble behaving, and get into things and argue etc. etc. Had one myself in fact. That being said your friends reaction to it seems inexcusable. Especialy when the child is doing something destructive or dangerous to others. Sensitive child or not, it teaches bad manners to tall a child they don't have to respect the property or safety of others.

That being said, I have no idea how you could communicate that to your friend.

MM


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think gentle, respectful discipline includes helping your child learn and follow general moral rules, like "Don't mess with things that aren't yours" and "Don't do things that could put others in danger". Your friend seems to be missing that point. It doesn't have to be negative, but I agree with others who said she is doing her child a disservice by not telling her these things. Children - people in general - don't have the right to use and misuse things that don't belong to them, or to put others in danger.

If you talk to your friend, you might start by praising her for teaching her child to stand up for herself and demand respect, because she's done this very well. Then maybe you could segue into how it's also important for her child to respect others, that it's two sides of the same coin. If another child came over where this child was playing and started doing things that might be dangerous - say, pushing on her while she was going down a slide - the girl and her mother would want the person to stop. Well, it works both ways.... it sounds like she has trouble determining when it's appropriate to stand up for herself, when she really is being mistreated (Like saying "Stop it! Don't tell me what to do!" to an adult who is askig you to touch his penis) and when she it's not...

Dar


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

You know what? I don't think I would say anything. I just wouldn't want my kid exposed to it.

The reason I say this is that I would have to believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this woman is either spoken to in this way by her DH or she speaks to him this way. Either way, I don't think she has an issue with it.

The reason I think this is because you either value respect or you don't. I would have to believe than anyone who allows their child to speak like this doesn't value it.

And she is off her rocker if she thinks that's part of GD - quite the contrary actually! GD is ALL about respect.


----------



## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

That's not gentle discipline, that's NO discipline. What in the world is that mother thinking?







:







:


----------



## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

That's not discipline. That's antiestablimentariam..... er... She's being raised to challenge authority - all authority.

poor kid. when the shit hits the fan when she goes to school, what's mom going to do? Tell the school they can't impose any sort of discipline on her child?


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My thinking is that if you are wanting to correct her approach, it might be helpful to see where she is thinking that she's coming from. I'm guessing that she perceives herself to be following some of the suggestions in the book I suggested.

If you understand her perspective, your suggestions might be met as the help I'm sure you are intending, rather than criticism.


----------



## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by AnnMarie_
*That's not gentle discipline, that's NO discipline. What in the world is that mother thinking?







:







:*
yeah. when i read the post i thought, sounds more like neglect to me.

sorry I have no good suggestions. good luck to ya.


----------



## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I also know someone who is raising her dc that way. I havent said anything bc I dont think she perceives it as a problem.....though I think they are both miserable, cant go out in public, etc

Do you really need this person to be your friend? If the answer is yes, then friends DO have to be honest with eachother, and youll have to find a gentle way to relay your feelings about this. I think you already got some great suggestions here......


----------



## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lab_
*I would probably run screaming from this woman!

What's gonna happen when this kids does something to your child and you feel the need to step in?

Maybe you could ease up on seeing her for a while. This child will get better the older she gets. We hope!*
I think I would run screaming from this woman, it sounds like she has no boundaries at all and her kid is only going to get worse (I'm thinking of the Blueberry girl in Willy Wonka). If a kid doesn't respect adults when she's four she certainly isn't going to when she's 8 or 12 or 17!

Good luck to you, it sounds like a real drag.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Plady_
*I think I would run screaming from this woman, it sounds like she has no boundaries at all and her kid is only going to get worse (I'm thinking of the Blueberry girl in Willy Wonka). If a kid doesn't respect adults when she's four she certainly isn't going to when she's 8 or 12 or 17!

Good luck to you, it sounds like a real drag.*
I was thinking more like she'll soon be visiting her child in the pokey. Stores need to start kicking people like that out. Here she'd have been thrown out and told never to come back. I think they call it being 86ed.

-Heather


----------



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I feel really, really sorry for this little girl. She is being completely set up for failure in life.

She and her mom need to find themselves an island somewhere with no other people and then they'd be just fine. Otherwise, her mom better find a new home close to a prison so visiting will be easier...

Honestly, this lady sounds bonkers. Even people I've met who are way too lenient with their kids don't act like this. I'd just stay far, far away.


----------



## elismom (Dec 3, 2001)

Candiland, this prob. won't help, since I have no good ideas, I actually just want to commiserate with you! I have a close friend, who was a friend before we had kids, and we have a weekly "playdate". I don't want to lose our friendship. But her dd is similar to the one you described. My friend does discipline some, but not a whole lot, and her ideas about how her spirited child has to be treated seem to override the discipline stuff. Example: We were at the playground and her dd (4 y.o.) was behind my ds (3 y.o.) on the slide. So she gave my d.s. a bit of a shove down the slide right as they got there--it wasn't like he was taking a long time or anything. When he got to the bottom I saw he was upset, so I said to her dd something like, "it's not nice to push people, please don't do that" (let me also note here that she and I have had a discussion about how we feel ok with discplining each other's kid since we (thought) we had similar ideas on discipline). Well, her dd started crying, and my friend yells at me for making her dd cry. Friend says that dd does that often with her baby sister to give her help down the slide and she must have thought Eli wanted a push. Well, Eli didn't ask for a push did he? So don't make excuses for your dd's behavior! She shouldn't have pushed, if she thought Eli wanted one she should have asked. So friend calms down, and asks her dd to apologize, but the way my friend and dd apologize is by saying "Eli, I'm sorry dd pushed you, but dd thought you might want a push". That's how her dd ALWAYS says she's sorry, "I'm sorry, but...". That's not sorry! And I know that apologies aren't all they're cracked up to be anyway, but when Eli apologizes, if he says I'm sorry BUT...I don't accept that, I talk to him about how that's not really an apology if you say BUT...

Anyway, that's just one example of her bratty behavior, but it all stems around the making excuses for the behavior instead of appropriately disciplining the behavior, which to me means teaching the child that the behavior is wrong.

I don't know what to do about it because I don't want to lose our friendship!


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow! I would just not let my child be surrounded by that sort of behavior. If youwant to raise a child like that, whatever, but don't complain when she doesn't have any friends. That is the result of that sort of behaviour.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

If you really enjoy this woman's company, perhaps you could spend time with her without the kids? I've been in a similar situation and ended up dropping the friendship. I could not continue to endanger my child, who didn't really enjoy being around the kid, anyway. My kid was getting beat up and the other kid was getting hugs and high fives for sticking up for himself if my kid accidentally touched his block or something. I was tired of being verbally abused by the kid and I was tired of hearing the kid verbally abuse my son. I simply stopped returning her calls and when she cornered me at the grocery store I told her exactly why I couldn't hang out with her anymore. She got very defensive and upset, but I didn't apologize. In retrospect, I think it is possible that she didn't have any idea of how to deal with her child's outbursts so she just ignored them or praised them in order to make it look like everything was on purpose, you know? I decided that unless she was abusing her child, which I saw no evidence of, how she raised him was none of my business and did not seek her out to tell her why the friendship ended. I did tell her in the end, but it was because she asked.

So that is my story.


----------



## fraya (Apr 13, 2002)

I have a different perspective from most that you've seen here, and I offer it in the hopes that it is of some help in understanding your friend and figuring out where you might want this friendship to go.

I have noticed that we all have different ranges of behavior that is considered 'acceptable' to us. For some the range is narrow, and for others a broad range of behaviors are 'acceptable.' My neighbor is so very relaxed, which I admire immensely. And then I have a friend who needs a lot of control in her life and exerts it on her child in as loving a manner as she can muster. Their needs (and how that affects their parenting) are very different. So where one has a broad range of behaviors that she considers acceptable, the other has very few.

It sounds like a couple of things might be affecting your friend's choices. I wonder if she has a really broad range of behaviors that she finds acceptable? Like perhaps she doesn't feel worried about her daughter climbing shelves and scaffolding? Or perhaps she doesn't realize that it is a problem to the store?

If she is very committed to her parenting, in a very personal way, or if she simply has a very independent mind, she might feel affronted by those who seek to put limits on her daughter. Also, having a sensitive child myself (and having been one), she might be very particular about who talks to her child and how -- certain reprimanding words might slip right off one child's back but dig deep into another child's heart.

I'm curious as to whether she thinks it is acceptable for her child to talk that way to others (which it seems that she thinks it is, if she keeps saying, "that's right, M")? Or if she's just conflict avoidant with her daughter and would rather let her daughter do her own thing than to have a conflict with her? If it is the former, then you'll probably have to examine how you feel about it since it likely will not change. Either you'll have to change your perspective on it (see the good in it, maybe?) or decide that you don't want to expose yourself or your child to the behavior. I'd imagine that behavior will be beneficial and challenging for the child and the mother, as she grows up. I actually think it's really cool and remarkable that this little girl can advocate for herself so well. However, it would serve her well to learn how to do so in a kinder manner, to say the least, but that's not an answer to your question. If it is the latter (conflict-avoidance on the part of the mother), then perhaps a parenting book such as Parent Effectiveness Training, which teaches specific positive conflict resolution techniques, might be of use. It should help her feel like she can engage in a negotiation with her child that isn't all-or-nothing.

I hope that's of help. I find these issues to be so difficult. We all care so much about how we parent, despite vast differences in what we consider 'great' parenting to be!


----------



## CTMOMOF2 (Aug 7, 2003)

How about forwarding her this thread!!


----------



## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

Yeesh.









I agree with those who posted that this isn't GD, it's ND -- no discipline.

If it were me, my first concern would be my child's exposure to her child's behavior. I wouldn't want DD to think this was even remotely acceptable, so I would keep her as far away from friend's child as possible. Harsh, yes, but my first responsibility is to my child, not the friendship.

Just my 2 cents ...

Best to all,

JA & Sofia


----------

