# Anyone else *not* think babies/children are expensive??



## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

So my brother and his wife are expecting their first baby. They are pretty well off as my brother has a well paying job as an attorney. I was on the phone today with my sister-in-law (who I am pretty friendly with) saying that dh and I are thinking of having another baby (we already have 3 children).

Does she respond with:
"Congratulations, that's great" or something to that effect. No! She responds with "Don't you think you should wait till you are in a better financial position?" and I respond with "considering this is not our first child I pretty much know how much money goes into raising children" and she says "well children are expensive"

So we argue our points back and forth for a little bit and I finally say I need to go.

I know everybody says that children are expensive, but I still have yet to see how. Sure, you can make them expensive. Say if you furnish their bedrooms with all Pottery Barn stuff, enroll them in the most expensive schools in town, only buy them Ralph Lauren brand clothing. (all things my brother and sil plan to do) but if you homeschool, buy things from thrift stores and accept handmedowns, as we've done. Really the expense isn't much. And if we were extremely well off financially I probably wouldnt do anything differently. She thinks that I denying my children things that we could afford if we had more money. And that buying their clothes second hand isn't a very nice thing to "do" to them.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I agree.
Expenses for babies:
Crib - don't have one

Stroller - bought a cheap graco because I sling a lot of the time. Parents bought me a $400 double baby jogger which I'm still using 3 yrs later and will probably be using another 3 years.

Clothes - bought some and the rest came from friends and family and I've passed on many to friends and family

Nursery - don't have one. Baby lives in our room.

Activities - Community centers offer great inexepensive classes like dance and gymnastics and pottery, etc.

School - Public school is free but homeschool isn't that expensive since you only need to buy supplies. Private school isn't so bad if you budget for it.

Carseat - bought the best money can buy









Food - Breastmilk is free

Diapers - I've spent about $500 total on all diaper supplies for 3 children

Anything else? It looks like my kids don't cost much of anything.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I find that the older my children get, the more "expensive" it is, and i am not necessarily talking about furniture. My kids certainly dont have Pottery Barn Furniture.

*But*, i have spent close to $600 in the last 4 days between my 7 yr olds birthday party, groceries for 5 ($200), a $200 co-payment at the dentist for my daughter, and her prom dress (nothing super fancy, we got it at Penney's for $79). My son has an infection and his prescription cost me $50 with my insurance.

My son played hockey for a few seasons, and that was expensive for good skates, gear, registration fees, etc.

My insurance for a family costs us plenty, food, clothing gets more expensive as they get older. Winter coats, stuff like that.

I think financial stability is very important. I consider it so important that i probably wont have a 4th, but thats just me.

As long as your comfortable with your current financial situation, i would just let what your sil says go.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I honestly don't think babies are expensive at all...now college? Yeah, that is expensive if you are wanting to provide that...but I totally feel that babies/children are only as expensive as you make them...besides of course, medical care if you don't have insurance...but I have a feeling your sister in law was not coming from that angle.

Yeah, breastmilk is free. (as pp mentioned) that knocks out a huge expense right there.

Baby food is free...well I mean, if you don't buy the fancy shmancy tiny jars of crap they can eat part of what you eat...please tell me how expensive it is to mix a bit of mashed cooked organic sweet potato with some filtered water and serve? (you get the drift)

car seat...I agree, buy one that is new, safe, meets standards etc...

clothing, my goodness, between garage sales, nice re-sale shops, gifts from people, hand me downs, freecycle,ebay, and even buying bigger sizes for next season when this season is on clearance...you are kind of a fool (no offense) if you claim that to be a huge expense....

diapers are cheap if you CD...even to be devil's advocate--if you use disposable, it is not a back breaking expense...but CD is better all around...

if you co-sleep, no need for crib or anything, as for the nursery if you are doing crib (blech)...those can always be bought inexpensively, it is way easy to test for safety (coke can test between slats etc)...

Anyway, you get my drift...
I completely agree with the OP, a baby/child is an added expense like anything, but I hate when people make it out to be like they are going to be homeless if they have a baby...there are TONS of ways to save....a lot of which provide me with being able to be a sahm even









ETA: I do agree with the pp that said that the older children get, the more expensive it is, with sports, or special occasions like prom etc...but even then, you can save a lot if you know where to look...like places such as "play it again sports" for sporting equipment, etc...


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*

ETA: I do agree with the pp that said that the older children get, the more expensive it is, with sports, or special occasions like prom etc...but even then, you can save a lot if you know where to look...like places such as "play it again sports" for sporting equipment, etc...

Love the play it again places....got everything but the skates there


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

I agree with what others have said that kids certainly don't have to be expensive, but my biggest issue is that we have virtually lost one income (I work very parttime). Since we feel that one of us should be mainly home for these baby years, I will continue to work very parttime for a while. Hopefully the day will come (soon) that DH will be making a comfortable living for us and my income will be savings, but for right now, we are stretched as thin as can be. So yes, in that way I say kids can be expensive. And I can see them getting more expensive as they grow, as was also mentioned. At the moment, DD is willing to accept all the hand me downs that we get, but I imagine there will come a time when that is not so cool anymore.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I agree with sweetbaby that kids are more expensive as they get older. Mine aren't that old yet but I remember growing up that my parents spent a lot on us- and we wore garage sale clothes and didn't have braces (and we grew much of our own food). There were doctor and dentist visits, hospitalization bills, prescriptions, my sister's school trip, music lessons for some of the kids, musical instrument rental, then they chipped in for some of our college expenses.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I agree with that Moonshine, and have always said it too. Babies in and of themselves arent expensive, its the loss of income. To some who make little, it might not make much of a difference, but those of us who command a certain salary, it can be a major impact.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine*
I agree with what others have said that kids certainly don't have to be expensive, but my biggest issue is that we have virtually lost one income (I work very parttime). Since we feel that one of us should be mainly home for these baby years, I will continue to work very parttime for a while. Hopefully the day will come (soon) that DH will be making a comfortable living for us and my income will be savings, but for right now, we are stretched as thin as can be. So yes, in that way I say kids can be expensive. And I can see them getting more expensive as they grow, as was also mentioned. At the moment, DD is willing to accept all the hand me downs that we get, but I imagine there will come a time when that is not so cool anymore.

I think it depends on your attitude as well as the personality of your child. I grew up on hand me downs and never cared and neither did any of my siblings. I shared a king size bed with my 2 sisters and participated in the types of activities that weren't super expensive. They got to be more expensive as I got older, but by then, I was old enough to get a job and help pay if I wanted to do an expensive activity. I babysat, shared a paper route with my stepbrother and little things like that until I was 16 and old enough to get a regular type of job on weekends. I only worked about 6 hours a week. And I was even able to save up $1000 to help pay for my summer exchange trip to germany when I was 15.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I think it depends on your attitude as well as the personality of your child. I grew up on hand me downs and never cared and neither did any of my siblings.

OOhhhhhhh, my DD1 has been approving her own clothes (as in what she wears for the day) ever since she was 18 months old. She is now 3 and looks through magazines (like the NYTimes Style mag) and tells me what she likes, etc. I suspect the handmedowns we have been getting all her life might not always be her thing, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Not saying that we are going to indulge her by paying lots of $$$. None of the other kids her age are remotely as interested in clothes as she is, so it does make me wonder what the teen years will be like!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I find that the older my children get, the more "expensive" it is, and i am not necessarily talking about furniture. My kids certainly dont have Pottery Barn Furniture.

*But*, i have spent close to $600 in the last 4 days between my 7 yr olds birthday party, groceries for 5 ($200), a $200 co-payment at the dentist for my daughter, and her prom dress (nothing super fancy, we got it at Penney's for $79). My son has an infection and his prescription cost me $50 with my insurance.

My son played hockey for a few seasons, and that was expensive for good skates, gear, registration fees, etc.

My insurance for a family costs us plenty, food, clothing gets more expensive as they get older. Winter coats, stuff like that.

I think financial stability is very important. I consider it so important that i probably wont have a 4th, but thats just me.

As long as your comfortable with your current financial situation, i would just let what your sil says go.

That's what I was going to say. Babies are incredibly cheap, at least for us. Sleep in our bed, drink breastmilk, wear clothes from resale shops. The few baby furniture items we have were purchased at Ikea or Target.

Ds1 is 4yo, and things have gotten slightly more expensive. Shoes (only thing I don't buy used), admission to different events, dentist, doctor (most of our medical is out of pocket even though we have insurance), etc. So while some people definitely spend much more than others, kids, not babies, can get expensive.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think kids are expensive. Not in all the little things where you can be frugal but in the big ones: Health Insurance, Loss of mom's income or day care, College Expenses.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Dh and I like to say 'Children aren't expensive, lifestyles are'.









I never worked after we married, so loss of income wasn't an issue. And with ds, so far we've *gained* (in tax breaks :LOL ) more than we put out on him.

Ds is only 2 now, so we'll see what happens as he gets older. But, looking at my folks, who at one point had all 4 of us as teens/pre-teens in the house, I think we'll be OK. My parents are well-off, but spent a minimal amount on us even so, compared to my peers families. And 90% of what they spent on us(new clothing, most extracurricular activities, Ivy League college for my brother, private school tuition for my sister, new clothes rather than used, expensive summer vacations, etc), I can see we probably won't, because we have *way* different lifestyle expectations as a family.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Older children can become expensive.

Some things that are expensive are Music (Strings in our family), Karate, Things like class trips to New York, Washington, DC, and things like the short term German exchange program for my High School students. Prep classes for the SAT's. (and if you think *that's* expensive try prep classes for the MCAT's)

Things like clothes and shoes are negotiable and things like skiing and snowboarding are negotiable but our family *likes* to ski and snowboard it is one of the few things that a family whose children range in age from 26 to 6 can enjoy together.

Debra Baker


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Babies aren't expensive. But medical/dental care and insurance is. And each additional person in the family multiplies the cost.

We are ttc #2 right now. Dh is a teacher, but has no family medical ins thru work. So I self pay--with no maternity coverage. A homebirth will cost me about $4000 (all out of pocket). Additional ins for the baby will be about $150/month ($1800/year). Add to that deductibles and coininsurance, as my dd has some medical issues (last year we paid at least $1500 out of pocket on her medical care--and she only has minor issues). That is a lot of money, imo.

Also, while we do buy clothing and furniture and other "stuff" used....we strive to eat the healthiest foods. Organic produce, eggs, and dairy are $$$ around here, and my 4 yo dd eats her fair share. That is a lifestyle choice, but not a negotiable one imo.

So, yeah, ime kids are expensive. Good health ins thru work would make a big difference to us in that conclusion.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't think one child is expensive. Which is why we have one child. We know we will always have $ to feed him and to clothe him and to provide him with all the things he will want and need growing up. And that we can afford to put him thru college. Babies and toddlers sure are not expensive... but older kids are! If we had 3 or 4 kids we could never afford them the life we would want them to have access too. And it's our responsiblity to be aware of that/


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

They are expensive if you are looking at your lost income if you stay home with them, if you had a large income. If your income is eaten up by daycare if you do work, then they would seem expensive.

But it's all in how you look at it. And the more you have connections with other moms...family or intentional family, crunchy playgroups if you are lucky, friends etc...you can get a lot of stuff cheap or free.

Hand me downs, second hand yard/tag sales...it can be done quite frugally. The younger the baby is the cheaper it is in my opinion....for many years my kids didn't care what they wore or if they were in umpteen expensive activities.

And having a nursing baby who rejects solids for a long time saves money too.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Things that can make children expensive:

-Increased life insurance

-Increased medical insurance

-Increased food bill

-Larger housing, if necessary

-Larger car, if necessary

-Increased utility bills

These are things that really have little connection to lifestyle. They are just things that naturally happen as your family size increases, and they can add up to A LOT of money over a lifetime. Add in paying for college, if that's a goal for your family, and more kids can DEFINITELY cost A LOT of money.

My sister, who is the guardian of my children, and I had a large argument late last year about how much life insurance we have. She feels that we don't have enough because, if the kids went to her, there isn't enough for she and her husband (who are both doctors) to raise our kids in their lifestyle. She was unable to understand that raising our kids in their lifetsyle isn't our goal, nor is it financially feasible for us. She said, "Well, what if [daughter] wants to go to Harvard and I had to say to her, "I'm sorry, you can't go because your parents didn't leave enough to pay for it?" I said, "You can tell her what I would tell her if she wanted to go to Harvard and we were still alive: Hope you get a scholarship!"

All this to say, I think it's just a matter of perspective as to whether kids are "expensive" or not, but I also think that saying your baby isn't expensive because you don't buy baby accoutrements doesn't mean much, because your kids will require more as they age.

Namaste!


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## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

Well as far as health insurance goes, we have Medicaid. So it doesnt cost us anything. If anything having an additional child makes us more eligible.


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

I really dont think babies are expensive either. Our insurance went up adding me to the policy, but not that much more adding ds- ours will not increase anymore regardless of # of children- it is a family policy. That has been our biggest expense. We have bought cd's, which were a little chunk of money(although our system is pretty cheap cpf's and covers) however this will last through several children. I can see how children would get expensive as they get older- for one thing food costs will increase- although I eat like a pig nursing!!

I think it depends on your area as well. We live in a rural area with a cheap cost of living. There are many activities directed towards people with lil' money. We won't be paying the full expense of college.

I think when most people speak of the expense of babies it is in regards to formula, sposies and the setting up of the nursery- As most everyone I know does this- even if they cannot afford it. Honestly, dh and I could have done this, but I see no sense in wasting my money. BM is best, I prefer cd and as I always see I have more time than money and he is sleeping with us- I would have long since went mad if we tried to do a crib.

Right now we are working on setting up a play room and nap room (as dh sleeps during the day). So far I have spent $3 on fabric- a local furniture store sells fabric dirt cheap.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherEden*
Well as far as health insurance goes, we have Medicaid. So it doesnt cost us anything. If anything having an additional child makes us more eligible.

I see your point. But for our family, even if i didnt work, we would not qualify for any kind of assistance. And as a homeowner, i could have a lein placed on my home for unpaid medical bills. I cant allow that to happen. At my husbands work, the health insurance for our family would run upwards of $600 a month. We could pay it, but the coverage is crap, and at the hospital i work at, its around $225, and thats with dental, medical, disability and supplemental life. It seems silly for us to pay the huge cost at my husbands place, when we could get it so much cheaper at mine.

also a consideration with us is my son has aortic stenosis, and my daughter a pelvic kidney. we simply must have this.

medical coverage and bills can make things expensive.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I just can't believe SIL would argue with you about the cost of a child - like you said, you know how to do it without costing a fortune! (Health ins is definitely the worst. But I _think_ if we have another one we could qualify for CHIP, so that wouldn't be too bad.)


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
Dh and I like to say 'Children aren't expensive, lifestyles are'...And with ds, so far we've *gained* (in tax breaks ) more than we put out on him.

ITA. Living in Canada, we get our monthly Child Tax Benefit which has allowed us to purchase a home.







We joke that ds pays our mortgage. (The CTB covers the whole mortgage.) We are paying significantly less than we were to rent a 2 bedroom apt., and now we have a 4.5 bedroom house with a big yard.

We have bought ds 1 article of clothing in his first year, and only because we thought it was cute. All the rest are hand-me-downs. Crib was given to us for free by one of dh's co-workers. Breastfeeding. We do disposables







: but they're really not that much when that's the only expense.

My 4 cats cost me more than my baby has.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
.

My 4 cats cost me more than my baby has.

I dont live in Canada, so i dont receive that lovely CTB you do every month (but hey, i do get to claim all three on my taxes every year, which is nice).

But cats can be expensive! I had to chuckle at that one......


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
medical coverage and bills can make things expensive.

This is my reality, as well. Just my dd's couple little "issues" cost us so much money....and having a second makes me a bit nervous because I think "what if there are more medical issues?....Would we be able to afford it?" That is not a good feeling







Oh, how I wish we had universal health coverage in the US


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

I agree with everyone else who said babies are not so expensive, but as they get older kids are. We have really good insurance through my husband's work (I stay at home with the kids) but with 3 kids and 2 adults we have a 1000.00 family deductable that must be paid before we get our benefits. We go to a pediatric dentist because he is super gentle and kind--but it costs us much more money over the on plan dentist. They pay out at 80%, but that is 80% of what the insurance company thinks a dentist should be paid--so we end up paying about 600.00 (200.00 each) to take them all to the dentist. Our grocery bills are now incredibly expensive, (about 300.00 per week) because the kids are all growing up and eating much more than they use to. I buy organic milk, eggs, and most meats and poultry and fish--and that is an extra burden.

I usually go to Old Navy for clothes, but kids are very hard on clothes and they easily get stained or grown out of. They go through shoes like crazy, and often need a few pairs as one pair will get caked with mud from playing in fields (I will often be washing one pair in the washing machine, and they will be wearing the other). My two older kids are growing out of shoes every 3 months at this point.

Oh dear--I forgot about the orthodonic bill. All 3 of our kids need braces. My 11 year old has a wire on his bottom teeth, but will need full braces by the summer (5,000.00), then my middle one already has appliances--she has a terrible cross bite in her mouth (2,400.00 for now, in addition to 3,000.00 when she gets into full braces), and our littlest one has an underbite (where the bottom teeth go over the top teeth). She will need head gear very young to correct that, or it could cause future speech and jaw growth problems.
There are expenses coming your way that you have not even dreamed of--our expenses are growing with the kids at a very high rate.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

4 Cheap kids here.

of course 2 out on their own helps hahahaha


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Lisa,
I hear ya about the dental bills. My youngest had a $3000 dental bill 2 years ago. Ugh.

No one needs braces yet, crossing my fingers. If i didnt have dental insurance, that $200 co pay for my daughter would have been more like $900.

And my middle boy who will be 15 this July is growing like a weed! nothing fits, his feet are huge. I did go to the consignment shop and pick up some shorts, but he will need more.....


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Yeah, I was almost yelled at by one of my friends when he found out we wanted kids, and how much we made. He strongly feels that you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford it, and according to him, we can't afford it. *rolleyes* Of course, we make much less than they do, but have more money saved up than they do, and spend WAY less on groceries, and other expenses. I don't think babies are all that expensive, for the reasons others have mentioned, but yeah, I can see older kids being more expensive. I know I cost my parents a ton of money. But I also think you can teach your kids to prioritize and about frugality so they understand why you won't pay for some things, and why they have to pay for some things. But all that is so far in my future right now, I don't have it all worked out. Just the baby stuff.









Oh, also, though it's just me and dh right now, I don't work, so again, we don't take that income cut.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

My sister (who just had a baby in December) tried to tell me last week that a baby will cost dh and me $1000 a month extra! :LOL Riiiiight. Granted I've never done this before, but I'm fairly sure having a baby will cost us nowhere near that. Now I'm wondering what the heck she spends all this money on...disposable diapers, formula (she's bf, but supplimenting. I'm surprised she hasn't lost her supply yet), paying off all the designer baby furniture...what else could they be buying for this kid that costs so much?


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

OP!! Personally I don't think that's a very nice thing of your SIL to say at all. Unless you made it clear that you wanted her financial advice (or were clearly falling apart with two kids) I'd hope family members would be supportive.....

At the risk of repeating what others said, some thing are cheap and some are not. Breastmilk is free but um, they do start needing other foods at some point!! Where we live, organic is EXPENSIVE and we pay a price for the healthy life we want to give ds. But since I can see how processed foods, preservatives, etc. affect him, I think it's worth it. I see the non-organic rght next to theorganic and I know how much I could save flat out









Also, homeschooling isn't free if you take into consideration the financial loss of the homeschooling parent's income. I don't think we can homeschool b/c while I can SAHM now, we will need my income later. I've heard people talk about saving money on school versus play clothes, but ds will only have one wardrobe :LOL

We also have good medical insurance which I pay a hefty premium for. Ds had surgery a few months ago and the bills, even after insurance, were really high. If he was on Medicaid the bills would have been less but he would have had to have the procedure done at a BAD hopsital with a non-specialist, which was not a choice I was going to make if I had an alternative.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

If you think of it in very literal, before-child/after-child terms, then the expense becomes obvious. If Dh and I didn't have children we'd live in a little condo within walking distance of work, probably. Insted we own a 4-bedroom home in the 'burbs, close to schools. I drive a 4-door wagon instead of a sedan (which I'm assuming uses more gas than the average sedan does).

I'm sure our grocery bill would be less than half what we spend now.

Dd is 10 y.o. and ds is 5 y.o. In the next couple of months we'll be paying for t-ball, swim team, piano lessons and probably horse riding lessons (absolutely not a necessity, but dd has been asking for a loonnnng time, and it's my pleasure to sacrifice the gym membership I haven't been using for 8 months anyway to make it possible.)

Actually, what's expense got to do with it? As long as you are taking care of your child's needs responsibly, who's to criticize??


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
My sister (who just had a baby in December) tried to tell me last week that a baby will cost dh and me $1000 a month extra! :LOL Riiiiight. Granted I've never done this before, but I'm fairly sure having a baby will cost us nowhere near that. Now I'm wondering what the heck she spends all this money on...disposable diapers, formula (she's bf, but supplimenting. I'm surprised she hasn't lost her supply yet), paying off all the designer baby furniture...what else could they be buying for this kid that costs so much?


Um, are you working now? If you did not have kids would you NOT work at all?

This is where the BIG expense of having kids come in; either loss of salary or payment for daycare PLUS:

Health insurance
Life Insurance
College Costs.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

HOWEVER- there's my dh's parent's example. He's the oldest of 7. When we met the youngest was a newborn. His dad was having a hard time holding down a job. They were on Church welfare. They were all 9 of them squeezed into a 3-bedroom home. They were frugal, but not out of any philosophical reason, simply out of necessity. There's no shame in being poor, but dh is pretty resentful that his parents kept having kids even though their finances were in such bad shape.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

I agree that babies are not the expensive ones-its the children as they grow and eat more, wear more clothes (play etc), demand medical attention, and college. I might sound nuts but I just dont worry about it. Thats one of the reasons my siggy says "diligently praying for another babe" because my dh is soooo worried about how we are gonna make it with the money aspect and all that. I just say it will work itself out-God will make a way for us. No I am not a crazed chrasmatic that says we can just quit our jobs and some mysterious lot of money will appear from Christ every month....I just have faith in God to take care of those that love Him. I would never ever consider ever going back to work full time just to pay for more HBO,faster internet access,voicemail and the little things that add up. There are ways to bargain shop for groceries and clothes could be seconds. My own mama finds the best stuff at Goodwill.I guess I would rather struggle financially then ever ever consider not having more children. You have to pick your priorities in life....and I am not judging anyone who's priority is their finances







. I know I cant take it with me when I go so spend it while you are here. I am not concerned with savings and bonds and stocks and all that. College for my children will be a choice they make. I just pray they are healthy God loving women who want to be wives and mothers....(its not as conservative as it sounds







)


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Um, are you working now? If you did not have kids would you NOT work at all?

This is where the BIG expense of having kids come in; either loss of salary or payment for daycare PLUS:

Health insurance
Life Insurance
College Costs.

I'm just finishing my BA, so dh and I are used to living on one moderate salary. That said, I will be working from home part-time during my pregnancy and after the baby is born. So there will be an increase in household income. We live in Canada right now, so the baby will have health care. Seeing as college is almost 20 years away, I think saving a little at a time would be both smart and manageable, even if we're poor. I really can't see how the baby will be such an expense for us.









ETA: And this was a small infant my sister was talking about costing $1000 a month, not an older child. She and her dh both have health insurance (and life insurance as well I think) from their jobs and I would fall off my chair with surprise if they were saving $200 a month toward their dd's college education.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Another thing I was thinking of is there seems to be a crossing of the threashold where you can relatively easily add one more to the fray, and when you really have to change logistics. For example a car. We have a bigger car (station wagon) than we would without any children, and I am guessing we would have to figure something else out if we had 3 kids, since we already have 2 carseats in the back.

Also childcare. We don't use a sitter much, but we do pay more for 2 than we would for one. Not even sure what 3 would add to it. Also, most sitters are ok with watching 2, but 3+? As it is, I have found our logistics much more complicated with 2 than with one. Not unmanageable, but more complicated. And yes, sometimes that means more money too.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I have found babies/preschool age children to be pretty cheap (of course minus the loss of more than half our income) I do find that some of the loss of income is balanced by all the thing expensive things that we no longer do because we are instead home enjoying our family (go to the movies, out to nice dinners, etc.) Plus, we do thrift clothes, breastfeeding, free library activities, cloth diapers, etc.

I do worry about the cost of college and the many years that I will be putting limited dollars into an IRA (I do a bit of freelance work from home) rather than the max into a 401K. It is very important to dh and I to save for retirement. My dh is one of 5 and my MIL sah for about 18 years and the 5 siblings frequently have to chip in to cover their expenses - DH and I WILL NOT do that to our children.

Anyway, I agree with the op - children and babies don't need to be expensive as far as what you spend on a day-to-day basis. However, to me either losing an income/paying daycare costs and paying for college are both pretty massive and will probably wipe out any thrift store/second hand savings I've been able to squeeze out of our budget.

Of course, I would rather be broke with the kids than rich without them!

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I have been thinking of this thread off and on today and finally decided to post a response. I think that how expensive one views babies/kids has a lot to do with where you are before the kids come and the value that you place on certain things financially.

On a very basic level, no a baby is not expensive, especially if one bf's and uses cd's. However things like childcare are a needed reality for some families and it eats up a lot of money. I am expecting baby #2 (my other child is 13 yo) and due to the choices that I made to get a BA & M.Ed but did not qualify for anything other than loans, I owe almost $100, 000 in student loans so staying at home is not an option. There is no way dh's salary alone could absorb the costs of my loans. Also while if 1 parent stayed home, it could save some money, that is not always the reality for some families. In some families even with childcare costs, the 2nd income is needed to make ends meet or again I think of my situation where I am hauling around debt that has to be paid.

I also think that while second hand shopping is a great way to recycle and save $$, its also not everyone's cup of tea. I'll be honest, I don't mind used household items but I am really not fond of second hand clothes. Though to be honest clothing for babies is not really expensive.

I think of things like insurance and how is its great if you have a job that covers most of the costs but that's not always true, I know this first hand since my dh is self employed so our insurance costs are high. They will also get higher once the baby comes.

Also I can say that as kids get older, they do get costlier, my 13 yo son wears adult size clothes and shoes. So shopping for him is just like shopping for a grown man, and men's stuff is not as cheap as women and or kid's stuff. Unfortunately since ds is still growing that means he still goes through his clothes & shoes like a kid.

I think its one thing to say that people don't need the costly accoutrements like Pottery Barn nursery gear, I completely agree. A baby can sleep with Mama, and frankly babies could care less about nurseries. However it is harder to say (IMO) that no one should ever be spending X amount on a baby.

For families that are able to keep the costs of having a baby down to practically nothing, that is great and being new here I am open to learn some ways to save and reduce costs. Yet there are some things that are harder to save on.


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## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

I was thinking a lot of people are talking about college. I don't see why my children won't be able to afford to go to a state school in the future and live home. Also many states have prepaid college programs. My parents didnt pay for my college and I still went. 2 years of comm. college + 2 years state school doesnt equal that much money.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

If you are poor, college doesn't cost a thing. Maybe it's fair, maybe it isn't. But for those who don't plan ahead and save for their children's college tuition, their children can still attend college. I did. I even went to a small, private, women's college in the San Francisco Bay Area. Yeah, I graduated with $15,000 in student loans and I worked 25 hrs. per week, but I also participated in sports and was on many committees, including my year as a student representative on the Board Of Trustees. My parents didn't chip in even a penny for my college venture.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
I'm just finishing my BA, so dh and I are used to living on one moderate salary. That said, I will be working from home part-time during my pregnancy and after the baby is born. So there will be an increase in household income. We live in Canada right now, so the baby will have health care. Seeing as college is almost 20 years away, I think saving a little at a time would be both smart and manageable, even if we're poor. I really can't see how the baby will be such an expense for us.









ETA: And this was a small infant my sister was talking about costing $1000 a month, not an older child. She and her dh both have health insurance (and life insurance as well I think) from their jobs and I would fall off my chair with surprise if they were saving $200 a month toward their dd's college education.


Very few people can work "part-time at home" without childcare AND earn as much as they would have working full time. Its as simple as that. For most people therefore children are indeed expensive.

If you've figured out some great formula where there is no reduction in income from if you were working without kids that's great.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't think babies need to be expensive - I kind of laugh when people say that because for us babies are dirt cheap. Breast milk is free, we co-sleep so no need for a crib or another room, we already have family insurance which is irrelevant to the number of kids so no extra expense there, we only have boys so we have a ton of hand-me-downs and no reason to buy clothes, we cloth diaper... pretty cheap!!

I do agree though that the older kids get the more expensive they are. Hand-me-downs get worn out as they get older and pretty soon there isn't anything to hand down because they wear out their clothes. Our teenager fits in adult clothes so they are more expensive. My oldest has been playing hockey for years - yeah we love Play-it-Again for the equipment but even used it cost us upwards of $300 every year just for the gear and pre-high school we had to pay to play - over $1,000 a year. The older they get the more food they eat - we go through 6 gallons of milk a week. Our water bill is higher now because there are at least four of us that take a shower every day. There are etc., etc.s all over the place.

All that said though I would NEVER feel it is my place to tell someone that they shouldn't have kids due to money. That's sooooo not cool.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, I didn't think having a baby was expensive at all ~ in fact, we saved money not going out and stuff.

Things like food, restaurants and travel are where we're spending a little more money now but it's still not too bad.

And, no, college isn't a big focus for us. Right now, we're planning on helping where we can with whatever she wants out of life but I don't pressure myself to pay for full college tuition.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherEden*
2 years of comm. college + 2 years state school doesnt equal that much money.

I ran the numbers based on the costs at our local community college and our local commuter-based university. Right now, it would cost about $16,554 for two years at community college and two years living at home and attending the university. That's not counting books. Multiply that by 2 or 3 or 4 kids and you're talking serious cash.

Namaste!


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

I think babies are expensive. I'll admit, I don't have one yet, but $$$ is what's holding DH and I back from TTC just yet. Here's how it is: I make $2800/month. I will SAH - I just can't see being able to work full time and put my baby in daycare. So, if I stay home, that's $2800/month we don't have. Maybe after a few months, I'll be able to work part time (I'd like to) and earn $1200 or so a month. Of course, child care will eat up about $400 of that. So I'm still down $2000/month.

We have good health insurance through DH's work, but to insure myself and one child will add about $250/month. Not to mention that the 20% co-pays and meeting the deductible can be quite a burden.

I know a nursery isn't necessary, but am I bad, consumeristic, non-AP mama if I want to paint a bedroom and make some curtains and bedding? And maybe frame some beautiful art or photos for the walls? I want to co-sleep, but I can't see doing away with a crib altogether. And I'll need a dresser/some type of storage and some place to change dipes. Sure, I could put everything in Rubbermaid bins, and change dipes on the bed, but is it terrible to sort of feel that a nursery is important? Even doing it frugally will entail some expense.

Life insurance. Don't have that now, will definitely want it when DH is the sole breadwinner.

And finally, it's not just one child. We want two. And I want them close in age - preferably two years apart or so. That means more cost in health insurance and childcare.

I plan to BF, CD, use as many hand-me-downs as I can. But there are real, large costs to starting a family that I can't just ignore. It's not a lifestyle issue, it's a survival issue. We don't own a house. For vacations, we spend time camping or visiting family. We don't have cable. When I stay home, we'll cut back on dinners out and movies and concerts, but that will probably save us $200/month, not $2000/month.

Gah. It scares me. The only reason we're even thinking about TTC is that DH is an attorney. Right now, he works for Legal Aid, and makes very little (about what I make). But he can and probably will make much more in the future. Right now, he works 40 hours a week, and is home by 5:30 every evening. We would be very, very poor living on his salary, but he'd have so much time with his baby.







Later, as expenses continue to grow, he can move into a different legal field, which may require longer hours, but will pay more.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
ITA. Living in Canada, we get our monthly Child Tax Benefit which has allowed us to purchase a home.







We joke that ds pays our mortgage. (The CTB covers the whole mortgage.) We are paying significantly less than we were to rent a 2 bedroom apt., and now we have a 4.5 bedroom house with a big yard.


shhh....you don't want all us United States folks flooding into Canada do you? :LOL


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie*
I make $2800/month.

and

Quote:

DH is an attorney. Right now, he works for Legal Aid, and makes very little (about what I make).
I don't know where you live, but we have two (soon to be three) children and my husband makes slightly less than your husband does. I don't consider us "very, very poor."









Namaste!


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

We live on about what you do, dharmamama. Our kids have what they need. We do live paycheck to paycheck, but we are paying our bills and have health insurance and eat almost all organic food, etc. We also have money set aside for a downpayment on a house this summer.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I make $2800/month.
Granted, I don't know what your rent, electric etc where you're living costs. But no way would I consider being able to pull in $2800 a month very poor.


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## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

Wow after reading some of the posts I feel like I must be a great spender. DH currently only makes 32k after taking a large paycut to have his dream job. We have 3 children (13, 3, 3) and we all always have what we need.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

$2800 a month is "very, very poor"? $33,600 a year is "very, very poor"?









Please, Goddess, hit me with the "Very, Very Poor" stick! HARD!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
Please, Goddess, hit me with the "Very, Very Poor" stick! HARD!


:LOL

My dh, in particular, loved this.

Namaste!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
$2800 a month is "very, very poor"? $33,600 a year is "very, very poor"?









Please, Goddess, hit me with the "Very, Very Poor" stick! HARD!

It's all about where you live. I don't know where the OP lives (but I would like to point out that in basically all the major metropolitan areas $2500 monthly is NOT a lot for a lawyer to be making--- they have often racked up major debt w/their education).

For example, if I made $33600 in the Seattle area (where I live) it would be equivalent to $19400 in Chatanooga (where you live). [this is according to http://www.cityrating.com/costofliving.asp ]

There are *many* many MANY places I cannot imagine living on making on $33K yearly. 3.5 years ago we were paying $1035 for a two bedroom appartment and it wasn't super nice or fancy. Yes, we could have paid less, but not less than probably $600-700 if we would live in a studio or loft. According to another site I found, housing is close to 40% cheaper in Chatanooga than Seattle. That makes quite a dent.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

You know your financial situation best and are the one who will be dealing with it. Unless you are directly asking someone to be responsible for your child in some way it really isn't their business how many kids you have or how stable your finances are.

I do think financial stability is good to have when you are growing your family.
To me, financial stability means someone has a job, you can afford food, medical costs are covered, you have a place to live where everyone has some space (even if you co-sleep 3 kids and 2 adults in a 1 bedroom apartment is cramped), you have car seats for all your kids- all the basics covered for all family members and maybe a little for extras every now and then.

Children are babies for a very short time so that period of time is not the most expensive out of the 18 years you might be financially responsible for no matter how frugal or non-frugal you are. There is a bigger picture though. But like I said your responsibility = your business.


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I ran the numbers based on the costs at our local community college and our local commuter-based university. Right now, it would cost about $16,554 for two years at community college and two years living at home and attending the university. That's not counting books. Multiply that by 2 or 3 or 4 kids and you're talking serious cash.

Namaste!

You must live in a very interesting market, Dharmamama! We pay $8400/year at the state university without room or board and the community college was $1800/semester. Actually, in some ways it would have been cheaper for DH to go to a 'expensive' private univeristy that had an endowment and could offer need-based financial aid to cut some of the costs (Which is how I got a degree from an almost-Ivy for about $4000/year), but he's in the heavy sciences, and could never get the kind of experiences that he gets at the big state school. I think he'll do better in the job market, though.

I don't really understand this "Insurance is more" business... my experience with group plans and health insurance has always been that it's either Individual coverage, or family coverage and that's that, it doesn't matter how many people you're insuring. I pay the 'family' rate for DH and I, and the baby-to-be, and it's the same monthly rate that my co-worker with five kids pays. I know it's different if you're purchasing private coverage, and that the lack of universal health care sucks, but would it really be an added expense for families who get their care through employers or other groups?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather*
I don't really understand this "Insurance is more" business... my experience with group plans and health insurance has always been that it's either Individual coverage, or family coverage and that's that, it doesn't matter how many people you're insuring. I pay the 'family' rate for DH and I, and the baby-to-be, and it's the same monthly rate that my co-worker with five kids pays. I know it's different if you're purchasing private coverage, and that the lack of universal health care sucks, but would it really be an added expense for families who get their care through employers or other groups?

Individual companies get to decide. Some have it be the same amount for any "family" (adults, kids, whatever), some have different prices for a single, a single w/kid, single w/more than one, couple, couple w/kid, couple w/more than one. DPs even charges differently based on *if* the other partner *could* get insurance through their employer.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather*
I don't really understand this "Insurance is more" business... my experience with group plans and health insurance has always been that it's either Individual coverage, or family coverage and that's that, it doesn't matter how many people you're insuring. I pay the 'family' rate for DH and I, and the baby-to-be, and it's the same monthly rate that my co-worker with five kids pays. I know it's different if you're purchasing private coverage, and that the lack of universal health care sucks, but would it really be an added expense for families who get their care through employers or other groups?

You have been very fortunate to have access to insurance that does not fluctuate based off # of people being covered. The last job that I had that offered insurance had different rates based who was being covered (1 adult, 1 kid versus 2 adults, etc). In my case, my employer covered my costs 100% but did not cover my dh or son, that was $$ out of pocket and had I been having this baby on that plan, I would pay more once tha baby arrives.

Many employers especially small employers or for me working at small non-profits cannot/will not foot the cost of the paying for the employees family so yes for some folks more people to be insured does equal higher insurance costs.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*









It's all about where you live. I don't know where the OP lives (but I would like to point out that in basically all the major metropolitan areas $2500 monthly is NOT a lot for a lawyer to be making--- they have often racked up major debt w/their education).

For example, if I made $33600 in the Seattle area (where I live) it would be equivalent to $19400 in Chatanooga (where you live). [this is according to http://www.cityrating.com/costofliving.asp ]

There are *many* many MANY places I cannot imagine living on making on $33K yearly. 3.5 years ago we were paying $1035 for a two bedroom appartment and it wasn't super nice or fancy. Yes, we could have paid less, but not less than probably $600-700 if we would live in a studio or loft. According to another site I found, housing is close to 40% cheaper in Chatanooga than Seattle. That makes quite a dent.

ITA. I think what one earns is definitely relative to where you live, so its really hard to say that a certain salary is not being poor. Also when you factor in if the person making that 33,600 spent over a 100K in student loans (like an atty) that 33K is really pretty bad money factoring the investment of time and money spent.

Like you, I have lived in places where earning 33,600 and housing costs alone would eat up a good chunk of that money.


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## BinahYeteirah (Oct 15, 2002)

I'll take being hit by the "very, very poor stick" too. I'm not trying to say Mimie wouldn't be strapped if she lost her income. I'm sure she knows best her financial situation.

Dh, I, and dd, however, have managed to live quite adequately (with organic food, etc.) on 15K a year. That's right-- little more than $1000/month. We did get Medicaid, but never had food stamps, WIC, or housing assistance, due to dh's fluctuating contracting income. We did this in *New York City*! It can be done. We did it in style, ghetto style, lol, but style.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme*
Also when you factor in if the person making that 33,600 spent over a 100K in student loans (like an atty) that 33K is really pretty bad money factoring the investment of time and money spent.

Boo hoo, they got to go to college and grad school in order to get in on the ground level of a lucrative career path. Let me go polish up my violin so I can play a sad, sad song for all the impoverished lawyers.









TiredX2, i _live_ here, but i'm not _from_ here. i'm from detroit and i have also lived in ann arbor, mi and atlanta, ga, and i have never been remotely within shouting distance of 33 large per annum (as a matter of fact, the highest paying job i have ever had was while i was living here and i'm still rubbing elbows with the poverty line!), so believe me when i say i know all about the cost of living in urban areas and i still just can't believe what some people think of as "poor".

and i'm still praying for that "very, very poor" stick to hit me upside the head.

any minute now...


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

A lawyer with $100000 of college loan debt cannot make it making 30Kish.

I don't think its fair to be dismissive of the difference between living standards in different regions. I went into the cost of living webpage and $100,000 here would translate into the $60's anywhere in the midwest or south.

So I can see where making $100000 there would put me in the rich stick category but $100,000 is an average salary here in Meglatopolos.

DB


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
Boo hoo, they got to go to college and grad school in order to get in on the ground level of a lucrative career path. Let me go polish up my violin so I can play a sad, sad song for all the impoverished lawyers.









...

Do you suggest we start playing our violins for you then? because your post sounds like we all should. In fact it sound downright disgusting.

What do you suggest those that choose more lucrative careers do? drop out of school and work as a checker n a grocery store? What about a surgeon? would that kind of school debt be worthy? And who are you to decide? and to criticize? Imagine how good it would go over if someone were to criticize those living at or below the poverty level by choice. "Let me break out the violin for those.Its a class issue and its wrong.

Here's an idea. I will tell my daughter that she shouldnt go to college, because she might have a baby, and she might want to be home for any length of time with him or her, and she doesnt want to have to worry about those pesky school loans, or her neighbor who lives on bean burritos because she does have to. I will advise her to stay working at the little chinese restaraunt that she works at now. Because, you never know, she might want to have a baby! and better yet, i will advise her to marry the driver who makes $2 an hour plus tips. yes, thats it, because he's home during the day and only works at night! perfect!. And my middle boy who dreams of being the sad sack lawyer referred to in this thread, i will tell him to do the same thing. Dont go to law school honey, because you will have that debt. and forget about your asian studies major and going to school abroad, because you might fall in love with a young woman with more debt than you. Dont worry about a thing, because you and your wife can live in the basement with daddy and I. after all, i have neglected you all these years working as a nurse, and have too make it up somehow.

Sounds gross? Well its no different than some of the crap on this thread, its just reversed. Its not Ok for me to write that anymore than it is for some of our less financially solvent sisters to criticize us that are.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote, "Imagine how good it would go over if someone were to criticize those living at or below the poverty level by choice. "Let me break out the violin for those too lazy to get off their butts". Its class issue and its wrong."

But we had that thread a couple of months ago and it went over like the proverbial lead baloon.

No one was suggesting we not care for people in need but those of us who suggested able bodied people should work even if they don't want to work so we can target our scarce resources to those who truely cannot care for themselves were flam'ed royally.

Debra Baker


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## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

My gosh! What nasty turn did my thread take?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

MEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOWWWW. It's gettin' catty in here.








:


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Debra, i know the thread of which you refer to. But is it right to criticize one particular class? Why is it ok to bash an attorney with school loans and not ok to turn the mirror on the person criticizing?

How is it ok for that?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Because there is an element in society that looks at someone who delays gratification and works his or her ass off and, instead of admiring that person, grows jealous and does anything to undermine his or her success.

I have a lot of compassion for poor children and people who grew up in deprived environments. I think everyone should work hard and try to do their best. I want to help people who really cannot help themselves.

But these are really two different issues. A lawyer should be paid more than $35k/year. I really think teachers should be better paid because many teachers are sholdering large student loans as well.

I think people living in the south and midwest should understand how much a house costs here. They should understand $200 electric bills when you're living in the second most expensive utility territory. (If I lived 20 miles west my bills would be cut to literally 1/3 of what they are now. Food, insurance, yadda yadda yadda.

And I'm not even complaining I'm *reacting* to the hitting with the poor stick snide remark.

Debra Baker


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Me too.


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## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

I dont know what school mimie's husband went to but many many law schools forgive your student loans per year for every year you work for something like legal aid.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

I really wanted to reply to this thread but I don't like where it is headed...I see the train comin' round the bend...

I was having a conversation with my step mother last night and I told her that I would like to have another child. She is the oldest of 9 and never wanted children of her own. She couldn't understand why we would be thinking about taking such a huge "risk" financailly having another child. She basically cited all the reasons PP have. While I understand why she formed her opinions and I respect them, I also disagree with them.

And yes, babies are super cheap for our family, it the big ones that drain us! I told SM that it would be wasteful NOT to have another baby with all our clothes and diapers and such! :LOL

BTW, I am pursuing my education now and it is going to cost $$! I am grateful that I am not burdened with the huge debt that most of my friends are. One of my friends is a doctor, (and her salary is about 8 times what our family makes) and I honestly think (poor as we are) that we are better off financailly due to their loans. I feel badly for her, but I don't think that she should have not recieved her education. I wish I had her education, but not her debt, and unfourtunatly they usually go together.

I desperatly want all of my children to attend college and we will help them out as best as we can. I also want them to all be homeowners, and I will do my best to help them with that as well.

I believe that the descion to enlarge your family should remain personal and individual. In example some of us here only wear used clothing and for others that isn't acceptable. There isn't anything "wrong" with either POV, but it will influence decisions on either end.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Yikes, I am going to skip the last 10ish posts and go back to something that the individual who is considering ttc asked about the "start-up costs". I don't think it is un-AP to want to decorate your dcs room. I decorated each of the kids rooms - it just didn't cost that much. I mean with my first ds we were lucky enough to have my parents buy us the crib and I registered for sheets and bought fabric with coupons from Joann's and got some posters from posters.com (we didn't get a changing table because we lived in a very small place and dss room was essentially a converted closet so there was not enough floor space - put me on the list of folks living in an expensive metro area!!!!!)

Anyway, with my second we had moved but we reused the crib as well as the second hand dresser/rocker we bought the first time and we spent about $30 on paint, $30 on a border, $30 on new prints, and $40 on curtains (thanks to Bed, Bath and Beyond coupons), I bought sheets and a crib skirt from Goodwill for a total of $4.00....I think that is what mamas are saying.

First off, you register when you have a first baby and find that the birth of a child brings out incredible generosity in your family and friends - I have never been so touched by how giving people can be....

Regarding college costs - dh and I both went to state schools and paid for it ourselves. If at all possible we would like our kids to have an array of options....including community college and a state school but we have also agreed that if a different option presents itself as better for them we would like to be able to help them follow their own path, does that make sense?

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

i did not dismiss the cost of living difference. i acknowledged it and reiterated that it still would not cause one to be "very, very poor" at the $33,000 mark.

i am not jealous of lawyers and i do not envy those with the burden of student loans. my best friend is a doctor and she has huge student loans. i am very proud of her and i occasionally worry about the massive debt she is in now that med school is over, but i know she is on a career path that is going to enable her to pay off that debt.

she, like all of my other friends who got through college on student loans, would never DREAM of opening her mouth and calling her (low for a doctor in seattle, but VERY high compared to the global or even national standard of living) income "very, very poor".

i am not expecting anyone to play the violin for me. i have a daughter to raise and i am putting myself through midwife studies one workshop and intensive at a time, as i am able to afford them. i had my daughter by choice, and i also chose a career path (traditional midwifery) that does not involve the possibility of student loans, so i have to pay for my classes up front. i manage to do this and eke out a living on 16,000 a year, and i have done it in major urban areas with a high cost of living. i don't think i'm doing too badly, and i certainly don't want anyone to pity or look down on me. my kid is taken care of, and i'll achieve my goals eventually.

but would i ever have the gold-plated brass cojones to describe myself as "very, very poor" when i've never gone more than two days without eating? absolutely not.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

"non-english-speaking driver". hmm, okay.

sweetbaby3, your post is so packed with racist, classist contempt that i all i can say is wow. just.... wow.


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

I think that part of the feeling that "babies & children are expensive" comes from the great "unknown". You know, that feeling that you aren't completely sure what you are getting into & want to be prepared for all situations?

In our family, babies are expensive. Every one of my children has had a NICU stay, and all but one has had a surgery in their first 6 weeks of life (and Megan has had about 10 surgeries - 6 minor, 4 major). We pay a $500 family deductible and then 10% of the balance. I know that we have great health ins. but 10% of a $40,000 bill is still 4K. They all take some form of meds (our copays are 25% of the cost, unless we go mail order - which we try to do when we can).

Our children, as they have aged (they are 10,7,4.5, and 18m), have required "more" from us in many areas. I am a SAHM and long for the days when I actually got to stay at home! We drive a minivan, our children attend school about 15 min away from our home & have one or two activities that they each ('cept for the baby) participate in. Add in bday parties, clothing (they wear uniforms to school), shoes, food (feingold diet family), etc. And, I would say that having another *baby* wouldn't be a major expense (save for the inevitable NICU stay







) but having another *child* would be.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
"non-english-speaking driver". hmm, okay.

sweetbaby3, your post is so packed with racist, classist contempt that i all i can say is wow. just.... wow.

Calling the kettle black? Yours isnt much better. Yours oozes classist contempt as well. But i was trying to make a point. Its ok for you, but not me, right? isnt that how it works?

I will edit. But only part.

And for the record, I included the non english speaking part not because i am racist, but because it further limits his employment options. _Thats_ why i said it, not because i am racist.

If you want to go there, by all means, lets go.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Looks like the college topic is being well covered :LOL My DH's parents thought they were in the "poor enough" bracket that he'd get college paid for and they weren't... but had no way to help him. So he racked up student loans. Sucks, takes a HUGE portion of our earnings- but we still do better than we would had he not gone to college.

Cost of living of course makes a huge difference in what a fair salary is. We moved from somewhere that we paid 50 a month in property tax to 400 a month in property tax. That alone means our salary had to be 5000K greater a year to break even.

Another area to think about it the possible costs of children. Granted, it can be cheap- but it can spiral out of control when there is a need or a problem that needs help. From mild therapy to massive surgeries. There is a potential cost no matter how few baby things you need.

Kids can be cheap- and we spend very little in parenting, but there is the potential risk for high cost no matter how frugal you are. And some say "well, there is always government aid, etc,..." and that is OK. But that isn't always the ideal a particular couple may hope for... when you accept medicaid for example, you also have to accept that they will provide care by their specifications, not yours. So it might be western medicine over acupuncture. The more help you have, the fewer options you are given. As sad as that is.

Then there is lifestyle and choices. I love to travel, I love to stay in hotels, I love to camp, I love to go and do. The more kids we have, the harder these things will become. The more they will cost. It isn't a needed part of parenting, but it is a part of my life and should be considered when we discuss having more kids.

I'm guessing your SIL just can't relate to being happy and content with a more sustainable approach to finances. As you can't (???) relate to a desire for name brands and expensive baby items. It isn't her place to suggest that you aren't financially capable though, and I'd be hurt at the disrespect of assuming you aren't a logical enough human to make such a decision. It would be similar to you saying "are you sure you should buy that toy? Aren't you afraid you're going overboard and spoiling him?" It just isn't our palce to decide what is appropriate within other families, you know? I'm sorry you had to deal with that. People just have a hard time seeing outside of their box sometimes, you know?


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Calling the kettle black? Yours isnt much better. Yours oozes classist contempt as well. But i was trying to make a point. Its ok for you, but not me, right? isnt that how it works?

...

If you want to go there, by all means, let's go.

My contempt is not for the "upper" classes or people with money. I have lots of people with money in my life. It is for those people with money who have, but insist upon describing themselves as if they were the have-nots. The use of "very, very poor" to describe a 33,000 a year income _anywhere_ is nothing short of contemptible.

But your final comment obviously indicates you want a fight, not a discussion, so I'll leave it at that- and while we're at it, we should probably stop hijacking the thread.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
But your final comment obviously indicates you want a fight, not a discussion, so I'll leave it at that- and while we're at it, we should probably stop hijacking the thread.

Nah, I dont want to fight, i was just angry. *sigh*

But you are right about the hijacking part. we should stop, and i will.

On a lighter note, I am going to my daughters senior luncheon, for parents and families. She is graduating from high school next month.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Well, congratulations to you and your daughter, mama!









Ok, really shutting up now


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Me too. I am really shutting up because my daughter is tooting the horn.

And thanks


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I just wanted to respond the original post asking if anyone else thinks babies/children are inexpensive.
I am pregnant with my third. I am a single mom and I earn $10.00 an hour. I get government medical and daycare but beyond that I never ask anyone for anything.
And I am not even the slightest bit worried about the cost of this baby. I have so many things left over my from 19-month-old that the only thing I will need is diapers.
So, no, I don't think babies are expensive at all.


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

we have 5 kids. we "can't" afford them. however i will not complain because Ortho sent me $25 for completing a survey about the patch AND I got to keep they kid I got while using it. :LOL

Telling us we shouldn't have more kids is as rude as asking if my kids all have the same dad. Each family or person needs to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. DH and I don't agree on what is comfortable.

DH feels that it is unreasonable for us to struggle with what we make. The $$ amount doens't matter. We know we can not afford to move and our area is pretty good. (pay scales and geography wise)
Insurance is paid for but deductables and copays add up times 5. We have 3 of us on monthy meds we choose to take.
We bought a house larger than 'needed' because we wanted to. Well, we never owned a house before and this one was very well priced. And we do have 5 kids.
We have to have a van if we are all going together.
I will NOT pay for my children's education. My parents did not and DH's parents did not. We will help but have explained to our teens that their help is expected, they will not be given school.

Our 3 biggest expenses are house, van, daycare. Yes, daycare. I can not leave my job and get back into the pay scale later if I am a full time mom. Plus, my mental state is such that I need to work. I don't need to explain that to anyone either. We pay our own way and our kids seem ok. As much as I would like to have an even number of children, especially a girl, I don't think we will plan on another child. As I tell my 14 yo, DH and I are married and know the risks associated with marital relations. She has no say in our choices but needs to think about them in her life. So another is a possiblity









i guess my ramble comes down to it is no one's business if you have one kid or 100 or none. be the best parent you can and if you feel material is important, fine. if you feel organic is important, fine. if you feel having multiple children is important to your child's developement, fine. in my case no one is going to finance my elder care but would my kids education so that is where my "spare" money is going.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I was thinking about this thread while paying my credit card bill and realized that there have been a few kid expenses that I didn't see coming....

Suntan lotion (my boys are practically see through and we go through tons of it)

Lotion in general - the boys have eczema and dh and call post bath time the "jiffy lube" we so gob it on

Film and developing pictures - I just can't stop taking pictures of them









There are others but those jump out at me - anybody else?

BJ
Barney & Ben

P.S. DH and I quit smoking when we had ds so that probably saves us about $5 a day (not to mention what it has probably done for our health)


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital*
I get government medical and daycare but beyond that I never ask anyone for anything.


Quote:

So, no, I don't think babies are expensive at all.
I'm not in any way slamming you, but yes, if everyone got free insurance and free daycare, the cost of having kids (for most people) would go WAY down.

Namaste!


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I'm not in any way slamming you, but yes, if everyone got free insurance and free daycare, the cost of having kids (for most people) would go WAY down.

Namaste!


Oh I would have move kids if it didn't cost $400 a month each for daycare. I might actually have furnature in my house! Or I could get an SUV.... lol. I CAN afford an SUV, I CHOOSE not to. (from a conversation I had about why they didn't have more kids) health insurance? Dh could get a different job, I could afford not to work (I take home basically only enough to cover insurance)


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

$400/month for daycare is *cheap* My sil spends about $1500/month for two kids none of whom are infants in diapers so she was spending a lot more before this.

Our biggest expense is food







: , house, Mastercard.<<mostly because of gas.

db


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
$400/month for daycare is *cheap* My sil spends about $1500/month for two kids none of whom are infants in diapers so she was spending a lot more before this.


I know someone who pays $24k a year for her 2 children. But she also makes a lot more than i do and in a more expensive area. My kids are in a home care environment that I have used for 8 years off and on- I am grandfathered in on the rates. IMO, she is the next best to me being there.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I'm not in any way slamming you, but yes, if everyone got free insurance and free daycare, the cost of having kids (for most people) would go WAY down.

Namaste!

Good point.

In the distant past, i have paid upwards of $100 a day.


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

Whoa.

I am very shocked by how nasty some of you have been toward me.

Let me rephrase, since it was a three word phrase that set quite a few people off. We would _FEEL_ very, very poor were we to lose half our income.

We do have over $100K in student loans. My husband works for LEGAL AID on a grant, through which he provides legal services for women in two rural counties who have been abused. He does divorces, child custody, restraining orders, etc. He actually makes $27,700 a year right now, but will probably get a raise soon to be around $33,000.

Our loans are made up of loans for our undergrad degrees, his law school and my MSW. I work in a mental health program in a prison as a Psychiatric Social Worker.

$130K in student loans - that's our mortgage. Of course, we still have to pay for somewhere to live. We can't buy a house because our long term debt to income ratio is too out of whack. DH gets about half his loans paid each month by his school, but everything else is on us. We pay about $1000 each month for student loans. Were we to have a baby, we could reorganize and get that monthly cost to be lower, but we're still ultimately responsible to pay those loans at some point over the next 30 years.

We chose this situation. We are both ambitious and passionate about what we do, and we wanted to have the best tools possible to do our jobs. Hence, lots of schooling. I didn't chose my field because I would make lot of money (I won't) but because I felt I had an opportunity to do something meaningful. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm scared about our financial situation.

We will have enough to eat, we will have a roof over our heads, but I guess I'm looking for a little more financial security than that. I want to know that we'll be able to pay all of our bills each month, pay for healthcare and put a little in savings to use for emergencies. I also want to know that we're at least on the way to being able to buy a house. Renting is not a recipe for long term financial stability.

So these are the issues my DH and I are struggling with right now. Just as I think it is terribly inappropriate for the OP's family to question her decision to have another child, I think it is inappropriate to be dismissive of my financial concerns. I do appreciate the support I've received from MDC -- I never would have thought that things like cloth diapers could be such a good option. And I think there is a great community here of women who understand my desire to SAH even if it is a financially difficult decision.

Anyway, I apologize for my mistake in phrasing. We would _feel_ poor. I am afraid of having more going out each month than coming in, and the desperate feeling of juggling bills, of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

But I am still really shocked by how cruel people were toward me. Go back and read what you said about me, and just think for a second how that must have made me feel.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Michelle, I'm sorry I didn't say anything earlier but I thought you were being used on this thread. Good on you for responding so nicely.

These things just seem to happen every once and a while but it sucks none the less.

It's not you.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie*
Whoa.

I am very shocked by how nasty some of you have been toward me.

Let me rephrase, since it was a three word phrase that set quite a few people off. We would _FEEL_ very, very poor were we to lose half our income.

We do have over $100K in student loans. My husband works for LEGAL AID on a grant, through which he provides legal services for women in two rural counties who have been abused. He does divorces, child custody, restraining orders, etc. He actually makes $27,700 a year right now, but will probably get a raise soon to be around $33,000.

Our loans are made up of loans for our undergrad degrees, his law school and my MSW. I work in a mental health program in a prison as a Psychiatric Social Worker.

$130K in student loans - that's our mortgage. Of course, we still have to pay for somewhere to live. We can't buy a house because our long term debt to income ratio is too out of whack. DH gets about half his loans paid each month by his school, but everything else is on us. We pay about $1000 each month for student loans. Were we to have a baby, we could reorganize and get that monthly cost to be lower, but we're still ultimately responsible to pay those loans at some point over the next 30 years.

We chose this situation. We are both ambitious and passionate about what we do, and we wanted to have the best tools possible to do our jobs. Hence, lots of schooling. I didn't chose my field because I would make lot of money (I won't) but because I felt I had an opportunity to do something meaningful. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm scared about our financial situation.

We will have enough to eat, we will have a roof over our heads, but I guess I'm looking for a little more financial security than that. I want to know that we'll be able to pay all of our bills each month, pay for healthcare and put a little in savings to use for emergencies. I also want to know that we're at least on the way to being able to buy a house. Renting is not a recipe for long term financial stability.

So these are the issues my DH and I are struggling with right now. Just as I think it is terribly inappropriate for the OP's family to question her decision to have another child, I think it is inappropriate to be dismissive of my financial concerns. I do appreciate the support I've received from MDC -- I never would have thought that things like cloth diapers could be such a good option. And I think there is a great community here of women who understand my desire to SAH even if it is a financially difficult decision.

Anyway, I apologize for my mistake in phrasing. We would _feel_ poor. I am afraid of having more going out each month than coming in, and the desperate feeling of juggling bills, of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

But I am still really shocked by how cruel people were toward me. Go back and read what you said about me, and just think for a second how that must have made me feel.









I wanted to say that I did understand where you were coming from and the points you bring up really are valid. In the end no one can really judge another's situation unless they have walked in that person's shoes.

One thing that a thread like this brings out is that we are all coming from a different perspective as far as our value system. Rather than berate or denigrate one another, discussions like this IMO provide for rich learning.

Shay


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

Mimie, I'm really glad that you brought this up, because it helped me to look at the lawyer comments on the last page without being so angry I could cry.

I'm studying to be an attorney. For my first summer position, I worked at a non-profit that works with kids who have special health care needs and families with young children, and advocates for their access to health care. It totally changed my life -- there is nothing like coming home at the end of the day and realising that you helped save a baby from starving to death because her parents couldn't afford the expensive prescription formula she needed, or that you helped a nine year old boy with autism learn to say "mama" for the very first time because without your work on his case he would never have gotten the therapy he needed to learn to speak. What I do is just massively, insanely important to me.

But my ability to continue to DO that work is totally threatened by the fact that it only pays $26K a year -- too much to qualify for loan repayment assistence (Which, by the by, is not provided by 'the school', but by student orginizations who raise and invest funds to make those payments. It's a total grassroots thing -- so if you care about affordable legal services, buy a cookie from them, huh?) but too little to pay my $1000 a month in loans and still make the rent and bills. Yeah, I could take my JD and my experience in health care law and work for an insurance company making $60-80K per year working 60+ hour weeks and helping insurance companies screw working families out of benefits, starve babies and keep children from learning to speak --- _but that's not what I went to law school to do._ And I couldn't live with myself if I did that. And I think it's insensitive and insulting to complain about the lack of affordable legal services and people pushing for social change and call all lawyers sharks while at the same time poo-pooing anyone who doesn't take their JD and use it to make a mint and screw over the working class, you know?

And for the record, I would totally call our income very, very poor if I took that job. $26K per year - $12K of loan repayment doesn't leave a whole heck of a lot for three people to live on. (DH will still be in school when I graduate - woe betide us when we have to start paying his student loans off) and I may very will simply not be able to afford to take that job, and need to find some sort of comprimise between selling my soul and not knowing where food is coming from. I also thing a huge part of being very, very poor is the sense of living on the egde -- one financial problem, one illness, one job loss or layoff, one car repair from out of the blue and you really are left wondering how you're going to put food in your bellies and keep warm now the heat has been disconnected. I think regardless of income anyone living in that situation has the right to consider themselves poor.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Belleweather









and
















Thank you.

And, btw, I *hate* insurance companies.

My SIL is a legal executive for a big hmo and that $60-80K figure, well, you should add another digit.

Debra Baker


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Babies aren't expensive. I'll agree with that! That's how I got my third!







(c'mon honey, breastmilk is free - I'm staying home - we can use hand-me-downs.......)

Kids _are_ expensive. Very expensive. Mine are 7 1/2, 9 1/2 and 11. The dental bills alone are staggering. Now I'm looking at 4k for my dd's hearing aids. dd9 has allergies. I've picked up two different prescriptions in the last 2 weeks trying to get her some relief. My ds11 is allergic to tennis shoes (yep! lucky me!) so he needs cream for that.

I'm not the kind of mom that schedules the kids either. We really take it easy and feel like it is important for the kids to hang out and run around after school. But it is important for kids to have _some_ activities. And it's expensive. Then there's the food! Those little suckers can EAT! My grocery bill for my 9 and 11 year olds is crazy!

Kids are expensive. The thought of paying for college is making me ill. I'm banking on the boys getting scholarships - dd too I hope!


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather*

But my ability to continue to DO that work is totally threatened by the fact that it only pays $26K a year -- too much to qualify for loan repayment assistence (Which, by the by, is not provided by 'the school', but by student orginizations who raise and invest funds to make those payments. It's a total grassroots thing -- so if you care about affordable legal services, buy a cookie from them, huh?) but too little to pay my $1000 a month in loans and still make the rent and bills. Yeah, I could take my JD and my experience in health care law and work for an insurance company making $60-80K per year working 60+ hour weeks and helping insurance companies screw working families out of benefits, starve babies and keep children from learning to speak --- _but that's not what I went to law school to do._ And I couldn't live with myself if I did that. And I think it's insensitive and insulting to complain about the lack of affordable legal services and people pushing for social change and call all lawyers sharks while at the same time poo-pooing anyone who doesn't take their JD and use it to make a mint and screw over the working class, you know?

And for the record, I would totally call our income very, very poor if I took that job. $26K per year - $12K of loan repayment doesn't leave a whole heck of a lot for three people to live on. (DH will still be in school when I graduate - woe betide us when we have to start paying his student loans off) and I may very will simply not be able to afford to take that job, and need to find some sort of comprimise between selling my soul and not knowing where food is coming from. I also thing a huge part of being very, very poor is the sense of living on the egde -- one financial problem, one illness, one job loss or layoff, one car repair from out of the blue and you really are left wondering how you're going to put food in your bellies and keep warm now the heat has been disconnected. I think regardless of income anyone living in that situation has the right to consider themselves poor.

These are some really valid points. Again its a matter of perspective, some people may not mind living on the edge but for others its a truly uncomfortable feeling. I must admit I was raised by parents who lived on the edge and as adults both my brother & I are people who like feeling secure. Security is not always defined as a big house, car, etc. In some cases its just knowing that if a partner loses a job, your next stop is not public assistance and dodging bill collectors.

Also you bring up the point of wanting to take your education and do good works versus being out for self and making a ton of $$. Its a hard struggle when you are socially minded and want to make a difference because for those who have not walked in your shoes its hard to understand the struggle you face. Again speaking from experience, both dh & I hold BA's and masters degrees (well technically mine will be issued in a few mos) yet our salary is crap considering the investment made to get us through school.(the old income to debt ratio) I am constantly dealing with family members who assume we are living well because we have degrees.







Education is a tool that can be useful but when you are guided by an internal value system it does not always get you ahead by the standards of the world.

In any event, I will stop my rambling and just say that I agree if someone feels poor, they are entitled to their feelings. In some ways its the old grass isn't greener on the other side. To someone who has never made more than a minimal amount of mony, a higher salary seems great. However if having that higher incomes comes with higher debt and responsibility then perhaps its not as food of a deal as originally thought.


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

Thank you for your support, IdentityCrisisMama, Shayinme, Belleweather, DebraBaker, and Lab (and everyone who was supportive earlier in the thread). It really does make me feel much better.









Anyway, I wanted to clarify something. While I am very nervous about our financial situation, I do feel very fortunate. I guess I feel like feeling poor (as in worrying about $$$) and feeling sorry for myself don't necessarily have to go hand in hand. I wish we weren't constrained by debt, I wish we could buy a house, but OTOH, I feel very lucky to have had the option to choose what I want to do with my life. My husband has had that opportunity as well. Even though I don't make a lot of money compared to other professions, I get to do work that while incredibly challenging at times, makes me feel pretty satisfied.

So... sorry for being OT. I think the OP's experiences just go to show how careful we should be about trying to judge other's financial situation. i know I have friends who make way more than we do, who are worried financially about starting a family, and it just makes me want to pull my hair out. But I'm trying to look at it from the perspective that I just don't know everything about their situation - sure, they just bought a gorgeous house, but I bet they've got a pretty hefty mortgage payment every month that's still going to be there for a long time. Just like the OP's SIL sure as hell doesn't know everything about her situation.

And, although I want to make sure some financial issues are worked out before we TTC, I would never, EVER judge a family who had a child with less resources. I honsetly think that as long as the basic necessities are there, it is the PARENTS, not the child, who will be impacted most by the financial situation. I think my baby would be properly cared for and loved, no matter what, but I might be stressed and anxious if we were to have trouble paying our bills and saving for things that are important to us. Strong, loving, good parents come from every background, and kids with good parents thrive.


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## delighted.mama (Jan 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherEden*
I dont know what school mimie's husband went to but many many law schools forgive your student loans per year for every year you work for something like legal aid.


Oh, if only it were quite that nice and tidy.....







: BTDT.....know how much they forgive....about $500/every 4 months of employment in the public sector. You do the math. That's 1500 a year. Divide that by somewhere upwards of $100K in school loans and you'd be working a loooooooooong time to get that debt paid off. Not to mention that you're getting paid about 60% less, if not more than that, than any of your colleagues for doing harder work. Nope, that concept just doesn't work here.....

Sorry, I just had to address that one.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

(Read the whole thread and cool to you moms who discussed your feelings and got to the point you got to. Wow, Way cool).

As others before me have said. Babies are not costly, unless you lack insurance and need help.

But kids are a different story.

I know we could say no to quality food, music lessons, drawing classes, school trips, museum memberships, someday college (only for those who choose it, of course! I know there is more than one ticket to being happy & 'educated') etc. Plus, one of my children who did a yr in public school is going back to his old private school next fall. (Refuses to hs again).

We have not had to do any Pottery Barn bedrooms or even $60 sneakers, but the other stuff- the music, the braces? Yeah. That costs. I don't think we are extravagant or over-scheduled, but there are some things that are healthy aand make life pleasant that we want them to have. My kids involved with music are really involved with music. It's life to them. My artist spends hours a day creating art. None of this enrichment is cheap, although like I said, I know they are considered 'luxuries'. I am grateful we can do this for our children, but none of it is cheap. Keeping an active 16 yr old boy in enough healthy, organic food is a financial challenge in and of itself.


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## puddleduck (Jan 3, 2005)

I was in a taxi yesterday with my cousin her 4 month ds & my 10 month ds. She was chatting to the taxi driver about how she wants more benefits because babies are soo expensive - nappies, milk etc I just smiled and said that i went for the cheep option and breastfed and used cloth nappies.

I think babies are as expesive as you want them to be - we are lucky and have been given loads of clothes from friends who's children have outgrown them, we co-sleep, make our own baby food, buy toys from charity shops, and we don't go out in the evenings at the moment, so that has saved a heap. but i imagine we will spend more on him as he grows but i don't think you have to or your child will be any better off if you have lots of cash - i always remember that it was my parents time and attention i wanted not toys or activities.


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## MamaFae (Sep 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherEden*
Really the expense isn't much. And if we were extremely well off financially I probably wouldnt do anything differently. She thinks that I denying my children things that we could afford if we had more money. And that buying their clothes second hand isn't a very nice thing to "do" to them.

What are your thoughts on this?

She is in a different place for sure. I would think clothing them in all name brand expensive clothes so that when they grow up they are clothing snobs and in debt from their learned commercialism and materialism is an even worse thing to "do" to a child!

We are expecting our third and got many of the same comments from family and friends. We live on a limited budget, but children don't really effect that budget except in a few small ways. Since we bfeed and cdiaper (I did buy some more diapers this time) and we have a good stash of diapers, one more isn't all that much more. The amount of the grocery bill will go up when DD starts eating solids in about a year, but that is plenty of time to plan for that.

We actually have less stuff this time since we have moved and sold a lot of the "baby gear". The only item I wish I still had was the bassenett since it is a safe place to put baby down so big brothers can't step on her!

I know that there is a lot of good intentions that come from wanting your children to have the best of everything. That is one reason I will skimp on my own needs (i.e. new jeans etc.) in order to make sure to get organic milk. But, there are some out there that are more concerned with the status of what it is they give their children than the quality and value of it.

I grew up with hand-me-downs and stuff from garage sales and goodwill. It was fun for me. My kids don't know the difference between Ross and Goodwill now and if I play my cards right they won't think them any different when they get older.

I want my children to understand value and have values that allow them to buy things second hand and give away stuff they don't need so someone else benefits. I will buy high quality items (hanna anderson clothing for example) but I don't necessarily feel the need to have those things and pay full price. I believe there are ways to give your children quality without going broke.

Blessings,
N~


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I pretty much agree with a lot of mama's. The baby part isn't too bad, but now that the girls are older things are starting to add up. I always bought most of our baby cloths second hand. I could never understand paying so much money for cloths they spend so little time in. It's hard to find good quality second hand clothing for older kids. I don't want my kids to look like they're wearing cloths handed down for generations. :LOL I never buy regular price for anything and I'm always looking for deals on clothing. Our food costs are rising because the girls are getting "real" appetites. Fees associated with school increases. Our oldest is turning 7 next week and I am realizing that we are going to have to pay "youth" admission for her when we want to go to the musium or other special activity. Up until now she has been free. Allowances so we can teach them how to budget and spend within their means. We pay the girls $1 for their age. That's $10/week or $40/month.

We don't enroll the girls in a lot of extra activities. We prefer to do things as a family and spend our time that way. We don't like to rush after dinner for classes as the girls need to be in bed by 8. We like to keep things in a nice routine as everyone seems to function better that way. They don't really like "classes" so it's pretty much a waste of money. We try to buy passes for the things we like to do. We buy a zoo pass every year, but dd's pass will go up this year. We buy a facility membership so we can go swimming/skating whenever we want. I wanted to take them to the musium in a couple of weeks, but wow it will cost $10 for dd. That makes it too expensive with my admition on top. I can't imagine when all 3 of them are of youth age.

Looking ahead to college is stressing us out. We would love a bigger house and with 2 very small extra bedrooms and 3 kids, we are outgrowing our existing home. However, we are very apprehensive about getting into a bigger mortgage when our oldest will be going to university in 10 years and the middle dd in 11 years, knowing they will not qualify for student loans but dh doesn't make enough that we can adequatly save for their tuitions.

I miss the frugal baby years.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I think a normal, healthy baby can be very inexpensive. However if you have a baby who doesn't fit into a preconcieved idea of babyhood, it's a totally different story.

First dd could not/would not bf. I have never added up the cost but let's see: lactation consultant x3, breast pump rental, breast pump purchase later, bottles and stuff, endless trips to the doctor for mastitis infections, nipple shields, nipple shells, etc. She still didn't end up nursing after all that (5. 5 mos of trying) and I gave up and put her on formula, and that was pretty expensive, too.

Second dd was born with GI issues. I cannot even fathom all we have paid for her. Breast pump purchase, crib purchase (so we could have her sleep elevated long-term), endless-- and I mean endless-- doctor visits to specialists, hospital stays, procedures and minor surgeries, therapy copays, medicine copays, $$$$ special formula for her messed up GI system that insurance didn't cover, more $$$ Pediasure for the next 2-3 years until she learns to eat normally and can get off her feeding tube, a new stroller b/c I needed one that she could be washed easily because of her puking so often, a spare sling to use while washing puke off the other one, a complete change of diapering system that would work with her stomach tube placement, sposies in the meantime, ear tubes, medical tape (lots and lots of it), etc etc.

So just pray that you have a normal, healthy baby and then yeah, it won't cost you much.


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## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

I just wanted to make a comment on buying second hand clothes. I grew up in second hand clothes and that is primarily what I buy for my son. However, I wouldn't recommend buying used clothes for your children unless you are willing to wear used clothes yourself. I remember feeling hurt as a child when my grandmother would go to the store and buy a new shirt for herself and not one for me. I am a garage sale hound and people usually rave over the cute clothes I find and would never "guess." But if I am going to buy something new for myself, I try to buy something new for my son as well so that he doesn't feel less important. Most kids do notice those little things.

And back to the topic...I agree, kids don't have to be that expensive. I personally think that kids who have everything and are provided with too much "stuff" don't really appreciate it. It is Ok to not have every fancy activity, new toys, and name brand stuff.


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

USAmma -
You brought up a point I had meant to address. I think one thing that makes me feel nervous about our financial situation is that having a baby is unpredictable. Even with insurance, a child with any medical or special needs can be very, very expensive.

heldt123-
I think that's a good point. Growing up, I wore lots of second-hand clothing, but I liked it because my mom made it seem like a treasure hunt - we'd go to thrift stores and look for surprises and bargains. She would buy items for herself as well. The other thing I remember fondly is getting hand-me-downs from families who had older girls. When I was little, I loved spending time with girls who were a few years older than I was, and was very excited to get clothing from them.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
Living in Canada, we get our monthly Child Tax Benefit which has allowed us to purchase a home.







We joke that ds pays our mortgage. (The CTB covers the whole mortgage.) We are paying significantly less than we were to rent a 2 bedroom apt., and now we have a 4.5 bedroom house with a big yard.

Holy heck! Abac, I'd love to know how you managed to get such a huge CTB! Our payment is $40 a month! $40 - that pays for our BEll phone bill! How in the WORLD did you get such a huge payment????

Back to the OP's question - I don't find the cost of DS expensive - what I do find expensive (and, in fact, unmanageable) is our ability to live on one income. DH does not earn enough to pay for our very small house and our property taxes, insurance and bills. We want me to be at home until DS in school at which point I will work part time or full time. But, we're barely managing and we are very cheap and not consumers at all.

We've done the obvious- hand-me-downs, bf'ing, cloth diapers. No processed food, make food from scratch, lots of low budget vegetarian cooking etc etc. But, at least in our city and with DH's income, we find the one income he earns (again an individual matter) does not cover our smaller than average mortage and our fixed expenses. If we were over-consuming, we could cut back, but unless we figure out a way to live "off-the grid", we still have to pay our hydro, etc. and that is where the one income is an issu - We've also figured out cost of day care and we can't afford that either. So, yes, having more than one child and being either at home or paying daycare for 2 would be very expensive.


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherEden*
Well as far as health insurance goes, we have Medicaid. So it doesnt cost us anything. If anything having an additional child makes us more eligible.

I just want to point out that recieving programs like WIC and government medical insurance and food stamps etc (while continuing to add to the family) is issue for some folks. Your sister in law may have given you a very watered down version of how she really feels.

Some people feel as strongly about supporting their family on their own earnings as others feel about CIO and circumcision. A lot of my NFL friends are as outspoken about this as they are about other hot topics.

Not sure how I feel on this issue. I sympathize with folks who want to have more kids, but I personally am not sure having more with government support is ideal.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

: I hear that crap all of the time because I am Catholic and would like a large family.

"Aren't you done?" "Can you afford anymore?" "Why on earth would you want a large family?"

I have just started telling people that I hear they are cheaper by the dozen!


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## AdoptChina (Dec 7, 2003)

Our biggest expenses are:

health insurance---DH is self employed so we pay all of this ourselves

dentist/orthodontist/eye dr/pediatrician/allergist/dermatologist---we pay $20 a visit for the ped/allergist & derm....pay a good bit at the dentist (ins covers a little amount), pay the full eye dr (and we have 6 in glasses/contacts), pay in full at ortho (may be able to get reimbursed a little)

food--I have a hungry family lol....buying organics is near impossible right now, but Im looking at co-ops

sports/ballet/etc---DS was playing viola but quit...but 3 play soccer, one does ballet

cars---we both have minivans (needed something to haul around so many kids lol)

school---The girls go to a private school (Their moms choice...we split the cost), our boys go to public school (free) and DD goes to a church run preschool (we pay for)

housing---we live in a townhouse...can't afford to by a house in our area

So far don't really have college funds for our kids (the older girls do)...I spend too much on clothes and am going to start taking some of that money and putting it away for my kids college


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Kincaid said:


> I just want to point out that recieving programs like WIC and government medical insurance and food stamps etc (while continuing to add to the family) is issue for some folks./QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly, because claiming that a child is not expensive because you get government help for health insurance or food stamps is silly.
> 
> ...


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Maya, I agree that claiming kids are not expensive IS a disservice. If nothing else, it undermines the awareness of the funds needed to support programs like WIC (which feeds people's kids), medicaid (which provides full health care and medicinces for people's kids), food stamps (feeds families and kids) and day care subsidies (provides care).

Saying they are not expensive while folks are recieving this benefits is irresponsible to the system that is footing those services. Because if we prentend kids don't "cost" anything, then how the heck do we complain when Bush cuts those programs (and head start, and free lunches at school, and all the other programs that children of the poor recieve).

I would be a lot happier if folks quit pretending kids were cheap and said, yes, we recieve services and they subsidize the lack of a living wage in this country.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

The expensive things for me (I agree, not expensive other than these things) are health insurance & tuition. If you homeschool or public school you eliminate the majority of that cost (depending on curriculum, I guess - I'm not a homeschooler) All in all, if you CD, even part time, & breastfeed the baby stuff isn't bad at all.







I'd have 10 kids if it wasn't for those 2 things - they alone are costly enough!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*
Maya, I agree that claiming kids are not expensive IS a disservice. If nothing else, it undermines the awareness of the funds needed to support programs like WIC (which feeds people's kids), medicaid (which provides full health care and medicinces for people's kids), food stamps (feeds families and kids) and day care subsidies (provides care).

Saying they are not expensive while folks are recieving this benefits is irresponsible to the system that is footing those services. Because if we prentend kids don't "cost" anything, then how the heck do we complain when Bush cuts those programs (and head start, and free lunches at school, and all the other programs that children of the poor recieve).

I would be a lot happier if folks quit pretending kids were cheap and said, yes, we recieve services and they subsidize the lack of a living wage in this country.


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

As babies, my children were cheap. No formula to buy, no fancy schmansy clothes, cloth diapers, not a lot of gadgets.
As teens? Absolutely they are. From dance lessons to athletic sign up fees, equipment for these activities, to their clothes, not to mention saving and paying for their education, kids are expensive. To suggest otherwise is to be in denial, because even if a family is in a poorer tax bracket, someone, taxpayers, for instance, is picking up the tab for the necessities of children.
I wish I could say otherwise. I wish we lived in a grass hut, surrounded with water, where my kids were home schooled, and played in the ocean, and wore nothing but their bathing suit all day, but that is not reality for most.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

On the subject of insurance and government aid...
We just got insurance this month for the first time. For 10 years dh and I were completely uninsured (through the gov., private, or otherwise).
Dh now has a job that offers affordable health insurance.
I really, really, really believe the US should at least have some variety of socialized medicine. The hospital situation is insane. Regular docs aren't that expensive to see, but if you add a hospital in, it's really madness what we're doing.
While I agree that it's a little odd to hear someone on any kind of govenrnment assistance say kids aren't expensive, at the same time, health insurance *should* be affordable.
Only in the US, among developed Western nations, do people feel they can't afford children because they can't afford insurance.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

My SIL's dh is unemployed and her insurance ran out and she's paying $1200/month for cobra.

We have been uninsured (for years, ug) and have freeballed it because 1200/month, how can any unemployed person handle that??

Debra Baker


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*

Saying they are not expensive while folks are recieving this benefits is irresponsible to the system that is footing those services. Because if we prentend kids don't "cost" anything, then how the heck do we complain when Bush cuts those programs (and head start, and free lunches at school, and all the other programs that children of the poor recieve).

I would be a lot happier if folks quit pretending kids were cheap and said, yes, we recieve services and they subsidize the lack of a living wage in this country.

Yup


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*

Exactly, because claiming that a child is not expensive because you get government help for health insurance or food stamps is silly.

The child IS expensive for society, even if you are not directly paying the cosst.


ITA.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

"Dh and I like to say 'Children aren't expensive, lifestyles are'."

I realy believe that a lot. But I don't think that money should be a deciding factor in having children, part but not all. It definitely should be a point to think plan accordingly on.

That being said...I have seven myself, four of them go to private school. We aren't wealthy but we live within our means, which means we TRY to save and not SPEND, but it's hard sometimes. It does mean you have to make concessions, like giving something up you want so your kids can have soemthing they want or need. They don't go without and while we aren't a designer label family (Target and Wal-mart being our main clothing designers) I will spend a little more for quality and durability.

I will shop sales at high-end stores, I was able to pick up a first communion dress for my little girl that was a HUGE discount...I think it was a 90$ dress I got it for 25$. So I look for stuff like that.

I guess the point is this: If you have a committment to your family, and you want children, one should be VERY aware of their needs and wants. It's up to parents to give children what they need and crave the most in life and it isn't money. I child could care less if you have 100$ in the bank or 100 million...if you love them and shower them with the gifts of afffection and tenderness, teaching and instilling them with respect and faith, that in itself is an investment that will payoff better than any financial or college plan that you could spend a lifetime accumulating.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I think it's easy to think that babies are not expensive. We don't have a ton baby stuff, we cloth diaper and breastfeed, and thanks to the overwhelming generosity of the people around us, ds has enough clothes to get him through the first year.
But then I look at my loss of income, the increase of our health insurance, my attempt to have all his foods be organic, using environmentally friendly detergents, and it really can add up. Just wait until he needs shoes, music lessons, sports, etc.
That said, I have learned from people around me, there seems to always be a way to afford the next baby


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:



Quote:

Living in Canada, we get our monthly Child Tax Benefit which has allowed us to purchase a home. We joke that ds pays our mortgage. (The CTB covers the whole mortgage.) We are paying significantly less than we were to rent a 2 bedroom apt., and now we have a 4.5 bedroom house with a big yard
.

Holy heck! Abac, I'd love to know how you managed to get such a huge CTB! Our payment is $40 a month! $40 - that pays for our BEll phone bill! How in the WORLD did you get such a huge payment????
My sister gets a huge CTB. Her husband is self-employed and make a lot of tax deductions he should not. Not saying that's the case. However, it's the whole "middle class gets screwed concept". The less money you make the more benefits you recieve. The big thing is that it's the middle class income holders that pay for those benefits going to the lower income class holders. This earkes me to no end. Dh makes a great wage and my all means I should be able to be a SAHM without worrying if we're going to run out of money by the 2nd week of the month. However, the government takes a HUGE cut. Our CTB in tiny too, almost not even worth them cutting a check for. We do own a home, but it's not a big home. We have no outstanding bills other than our student loans. We have 3 kids and that was a big decision, because they are expensive to raise. Babies, infants, toddlers, pre-schoolers, schoolers, teenagers and early adults...are expensive. We don't qualify for a huge CTB, we don't qualify for a GST rebate either, and when our kids want to go to college they won't qualify for a student loan because dh's income is too high. However, we struggle every month.

It is easy to say kids aren't that expensive when you get assistance from the government. When you actually have to pay for everything without help form the government, then damb straight it's expensive to have children. My brothers ex-girlfriend didn't work, had 2 kids and recieved over $1000/month is Child Tax Benefits and GST rebates. She also lived in assisted housing which cost her $150/month in rent for a 4-plex suit. Medical and dental were covered through social services. She had the idea that kids were not expensive.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Okay here's our month, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff:

Abi:
new swimsuit $12
clothes from Goodwill for summer $25
new undies: $12
flip flops: $5
sunscreen: $6
kickboard: $8
bday party stuff for her 1/2 bday (and we are doing it simple): $25
Food for the bday party: $30
gas/parking to drive her to science center, playgroup, children's museum all month long: who knows?? $40 maybe?
membership to above places: breaks down to $20
parks and rec Karate class: $35 including uniform
homeschooling supplies/books: breaks down to $50
wading pool: $20
allergy meds: $15
haircut: $10
misc. treats while out: $20
Food: who knows? She doesn't eat for free though.

*Total for Abi, not including food: $333*

--------------
Nitara, who is my medically needy baby:

visit to ER: $75
doctor copays last month: $40
prescription copays: $90
formula for her stomach tube: $140
misc. medical supplies for tube care: $12
babyfood and oral snacks: $15

and then there's the normal stuff:
swimsuit and hat: $15
shoes: $5
baby floatie for the pool: $12
diaper washing every other day: who knows?? It's not free.

*her therapy is covered through the State, thank goodness. That would be $480/month

*Nitara's total: $404*

Now if we used sitters, had private lessons for Abi with swimming or music, etc. it would be even more. I can't even imagine how daycare costs would factor into it if I were working!


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

I think they get expensive as they get older. DD is 7 and very into fashion. Why I dont know. I am a very plain jane type of person! (T-shirt, jeans and flip flops!). She now wants to shop at the Limited Too. WOW that is an expensive place. I told her she has to wait for the items to go on sal several times. We dont have Pottery Barn Furniture but we do have very good stuff- I want it to last so my kids can take it with them someday.

We definitly would take the hand-me-downs but nobody has any as she is the oldest of 5 grandaughters and none of our frieinds have kids yet! I used to shop at consignment shops for her but they have since closed down.

I only buy name brand clothing. I guess I am a snob in that sense. I do not like WalMart. So I dont buy there. Besides that I get better deals at the name brand stores. Just got Jammies at the GAP for next winter-4.95!

We know have 2 kids and would like another but not for several years. I need to finish my degree and we need to be finacially sound. College will be here before we know it. DD wants to go to Juliard! She wants to play piano and sing. And she is only 7. She may change her mind. My parents NEVER pushed college on me. Thats why I am 29 and still a sophmore. My kids will have to go to college and at least try. That is our rule.

If we decide to have a third it will be because I have a good job.

So I guess kids can be expensive! I think it also depends on where you live.


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

I dont feel like kids are as expensive as all the "studies" and news sites would have us thinking. THere are lots of ways of cutting down that they never mention in thier little breakdowns of expenses.


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## snugglebug14 (Feb 8, 2005)

as a breastfeeding, cloth diapering mama who loves to tag sale..there is almost no added expense for baby! with tag saling even buying clothes for ds often comes out to .25 an outfit and $100 equipment comes out to $10. tag sales are the way to go when money is tight! you'd be amazed what you can find


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Oh, that's interesting- to break it down monthly. But I don't think i want to know...

I had to pay the camp down payment, which was $600. I do know we could not do camp, but it's a UU camp and we want them to have that experience. My 3 oldest go for one week each summer. We budget it, so it does not come as a surprise.

Music lessons for ds # 1-- $100/mo
Music lessons for ds # 2-- $60/mo

Could say no to music as well, but both boys are music 'freaks' and love to play.

Riding lessons (for the love of riding, not showing) for dd #1--$160/mo

DD# 2- Currently not in anything that involves payment:

Summer activies are not factored in, but they don't start until mid -july.

Organic food for a family of 6--At least $100/wk

Book fair- $44 (Buy one get one free- good deal)

Homeschool botany class - $5

2 driving lessons for teen- not sure yet. I think the whole series is $300.

Renew Aquarium membership- $ 93

Currently we have no $$ medical needs, but we have in the past.

we could not doing any of the above, which is an option. each family has to tweak the budget for those things which are important to them.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

In our case our baby will be expensive..but that because we CHOSE to adopt. SO now on top of all of the baby necessities we will have to make a $350 loan payment for the next 10 years. But we chose to do this. For us having children was a major priority. I can see where if it were to be unplanned it could have more of an initial cost than if your were TTC. We made sure that we both had dependable vehicles, a place to live, and so on so that we were prepared ahead of time for some of the expense. But I feel alot of it is in how you choose to parent. Whether its staying at home, a private school, name brand clothing, garage sale clothing you will make it work if its important enough to you. If we were to have gotten pregnant we would have been able to make it with me staying at home. Since we chose to adopt we no longer have the option. I switched to different job that would pay better and have benefits. If I were not to work we would have to get our own insurance and would not be able to afford our current bills and the adoption loan. Its all in your choice.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Yes, that's costly. Our adoption was also $$. We were able to get a portion of the fee from house equity. I was also luckily able to take a part time job the yr before our child arrived and banked it all. We couldn't have done that if we needed that money to live.

Congratulations on your pending arrival.







It's such an exciting time!!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

My kids will have to go to college and at least try. That is our rule.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but how can you have a rule that they have to go to college. Isn't it up to them?


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

Not taken the wrong way!!

It is our rule b/c neither of our parents enfored good grades and a future education. I wanted to go to college but nobody helped me look into it. I now take education very serious. We live on the east coast and it is very expensive. DH makes 3500 a month and we are barely living at the moment. And he DOESNT have a college degree.

And when I say they must at least try at college I dont mean a 4 year Ivy Leage I mean any college...Business School, Mechanics School, Culinary, a technical school.I just want them to take Education serious.


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