# Vegetarian thinking about adding fish back into diet - Nourishing Traditions



## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I've been a vegetarian for 10 years (ovo-lacto) but have since given up dairy for dd#2 (she gets gassy) and dd#1 is allergic/sensitive to dairy. When I was pregnant with dd#2, a rash developed around my mouth (dry skin, peely, itchy). We thought it was hormonal and I endured it thinking it would go away after the pregnancy. I added flax oil and acidophilus to my diet, but only helped a little. Well, dd#2 is 4 months old now and I have the worst rash around my mouth. My homeopath suggested sulfer and other remedies, but no help. I went to see my chiro (nutritionist) and she said my body is under a lot of stress, fighting to get enough nutrients. So I started eating 2 eggs a day and other protein rich foods (just started nuts again). DD#1's preschool teacher suggested I read "Nourishing Traditions". A lot of it makes sense to me. I think my body is just taxed to the max, nursing dd#1 for 3-1/2 years, pregnancy, nursing dd#2 now... I think if I keep up with the eggs the rash might be under control, but at the same time I'm still living borderline to starving my body. I also have concerns about dd#1. She was the chubbiest little girl when she was nursing. After my milk dried up because of my pregnancy, she lost 6 lbs. She has since gained 2 back, but basically has not gained any more weight. I'm concerned (especially after reading Nourishing Traditions). We eat very "healthy" - organic foods, whole grains, natural sweetners. But we get a lot of our proteins from soy. DD#1 eats goat cheeses and eggs, so she is getting some animal protein. I don't think that soy is evil or anything, but I also believe in moderation.

I'm beginning to think that it might be a good idea for our family to add fish back to our diet. I wouldn't call dd#1 skinny, but I definitely don't want to affect her growth because of my philosophical ideal. Somehow, I feel like I've failed but at the same time, my family's health is very important to me. Has anyone gone thru this? DH is supportive (he still hasn't decided on whether he would eat fish or not).


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

fish is one of the most toxic of the meats... but whatever. Also, you realize you would no longer be vegetarian if you ate fish?!


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## Mama Lori (Mar 11, 2002)

Hi, my ds and I got a lot healthier after adding fish and other meat back into our diets. My son has epilepsy and I have blood sugar issues. We saw a dr. of chinese medicine and he said we both should be having a little meat with each meal. well i can't say we've been THAT good about it, we have it once a day at best, but we are both doing way better since adding meat back. we did start with fish, and then surprisingly beef was the next thing I felt like adding back. we also eat some poultry. I feel much more stable and sane as a carnivore. I don't crave sweets as much, I don't get yeast infections, I'm not shaky, I don't get sick as often.


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## peacenlove (Apr 1, 2003)

I think that free range, organic animals are the only option if you feel your body needs the meat. also wild salmon is the best of the fish.

I am vegan (for many years) fish was the last of the animal products I stopped eating. Listen to your body, i eat a lot of nuts, avocado, flax seeds (ground) flax oil, hemp seeds. Do what is best for you







and don't listen to anyone who tries to judge you. You know what is best for your body and your family. Good luck

peace kathleen


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## marilynmama (Oct 20, 2003)

It really depends on the fish. Not all fish is some toxic thing. We eat wild sockeye salmon which is a small, young salmon so it doesn't accumulate the mercury as the other types of salmon and fish do. We also eat organic free range chicken. The company I buy my salmon from tests the levels of mercury as well if that is a concern to you.

I won't buy fish or chicken from the supermarket, I am pretty picky and want to make sure I get healthy, disease free meat and fish.


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## lovetomom (May 21, 2003)

Hi there,
This post is right in line with my current line of thought. I have been vegan for over 10 years, eaten fish on and off and am thinking about bringing animal products back into my diet, my DD's and my husband. My husband recently started eating meat again and is feeling so much better and I have recently also seen a chinese doctor who recommends I do the same.

Before I had a child, I had time to eat a good, balanced vegan diet. I don't anymore. I have decided it's not worth it for my family to live under the title of vegan and not be entirely healthy.

We will still eat whole foods, organic and tons of veggies but a little animal protein will hopefully help us all feel our best.

xo


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Could your rash be dermatitis herpetiformis?? The stress of childbirth can cause this to become active in the body.

I would look into it, the malabsorption and the rash are indicative of this.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks for all the responses. I think adding fish is probably the right course for us, but I'm still losing sleep over it. I've been a vegetarian most of my adult life and I don't even know how to cook fish (or have any fish cookbooks). The mercury and toxins in fish is also worrysome (since I have pretty young kids). Sigh! At the same time, I'm not ready to start eating chicken or beef yet. Do they have organic fish?

I surfed around and looked up dermatits herpetiformis. My skin doesn't blister like the pictures show, so I don't think thats it. A friend of ours who happens to be a doctor looked at it and thought it looks more like eczema. She of course suggested some kind of cortizone creme. I believe in finding out the cause instead of covering up the symptoms. Anyways, it looks like my skin is improving with my added protein and decrease wheat routine.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

canned sardines are extremely low in environmental toxins, & my kids love 'em (plus the oil is awesome for my son's excema.) without getting all into it, while crueltyfree is a good goal, things like a litter of mice getting crushed when i move my composter for my organic veggies happen. it was sad, but everything comes with a price. healthwise i think you're prolly making a good decision; i'm not a lover of labels, & health is certainly more important than keeping a tag... but pastured, humanely raised animals cause me a lot less guilt (and non-farmed fish.) (when i was a veggie it was for ethical reasons, not health.)

bon voyage, this should be an adventure! suse


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## Mama Lori (Mar 11, 2002)

For cooking fish, the Moosewood cookbooks are great. They are all "vegetarian plus fish". Two of my favorites are Moosewood Cooks at Home: Fast and Easy Recipes" and "Sundays at Moosewood". They have some newer ones out that are supposed to be great too. Another good one is Linda Page's Cooking for Healthy Healing - she has lots of good and very creative fish recipes.

But basically - fish is very easy to cook. Just rinse it, place it in a baking dish with some olive oil, and if you like, add seasonings like fresh or dried herbs, lemon juice or lemon slices, crushed garlic, salt and pepper...whatever you like...and bake it until opaque all the way through the middle at around 350 degrees...usually 20 or 30 min. depending on the thickness. My son will eat any kind of fish as long as he has dill sauce with it. Our dill sauce is just equal parts mayonnaise and plain yogurt with some fresh or dried dill mixed in.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Here is a thread that is similar to yours:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=131743

I posted my story there.

A thing to think about is IMHO you don't need to add as many animal products as is recommended in NT. Although some people may have a different opinion than I do.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

never mind, I changed my mind.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I like Moosewood recipes, just never noticed there are fish recipes in there too. Thanks!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts toraji. I'm still going back and forth about this. Being a vegetarian feels right to me, but my body is telling me something else. The eggs are helping now, but I'd rather not rely on only 1 kind of animal protein. (DD#2 (and #1) are sensitive to dairy and just found out I don't tolerate goat yogurt either). I'm also curious if there is any truth in the Eat R 4 your type book. My family are all type Os - hunter/gatherer type. I'm wondering if others who switch back to eating meat because of health reasons have the same blood type. Deep down, I know I can switch back to being a vegetarian down the road, but it is still so hard. The label (of being a vegetarian) is not important, but the actual thought/act of eating fish bothers me. When I was pregnant with dd#2, I had strong cravings for beef. Perhaps it was a warning sign. I also had protein(or is it sugar) in my urine. I didn't listen and I didn't listen to my body. Aaah!


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## mama2annabelle (Dec 29, 2002)

Just wanted to encourage you to follow your body.

I was vegan for 5 years. I had a wonderfully balanced whole foods diet. I had a healthy vegan pregnancy, although DD was very small--6 lbs 1 oz at full term. DD gained weight and grew very well for the first 6 months, but then stopped gaining weight. I added eggs and fish (wild salmon only) to my diet when she was 10 months because I was concerned b/c she hadn't grown any in 4 months. She was still exclusively bf at that time since she had no interest in solids, so I believed that I had to change my diet for her. At 15 months she was less than 1 lb more than she was at 6 months. She gained less than 1 lb in 9 months!!! At that point I added raw dairy and locally grown organic grass fed meats into my diet and hers. Within 2 months she had gained almost 5 lbs. And it is unbelievable how much healthier I have felt. I had been starting to feel very weak and tired all the time and just not "well". Very soon after adding the dairy and meat back in I felt like a new person.

I guess my point is that not everyone thrives on a veg diet. I thrived for a long time, but once I went through preg and breastfeeding, it was just not enough to sustain me and my child. It was a very difficult transition to make. Everyone I know was shocked b/c they said I was the LAST person on earth they thought would give up on her ideals. But when it comes down to your health and especially your child's health nothing else is more important.


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## Fiona2 (Dec 21, 2003)

I agree that pregnancy/breastfeeding takes its toll and can deplete your body of nutrients. My son is a frequent breastfeeder and to keep up, I eat at least twice the amount I would if I wasn't feeding him.

If this were me, I would have bloodtests run to establish what I was missing, then consider how I could make them up from vegetarian sources.

Hope you find something that works for you.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
canned sardines are extremely low in environmental toxins, & my kids love 'em (plus the oil is awesome for my son's excema.) without getting all into it, while crueltyfree is a good goal, things like a litter of mice getting crushed when i move my composter for my organic veggies happen. it was sad, but everything comes with a price. healthwise i think you're prolly making a good decision; i'm not a lover of labels, & health is certainly more important than keeping a tag... but pastured, humanely raised animals cause me a lot less guilt (and non-farmed fish.) (when i was a veggie it was for ethical reasons, not health.)

bon voyage, this should be an adventure! suse


What she said!









I am a vegetarian and have been since 1989, and I totally agree that your health is more important than a label. Follow your heart and your instincts, and I hope you feel better soon!


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiona2*
I agree that pregnancy/breastfeeding takes its toll and can deplete your body of nutrients. My son is a frequent breastfeeder and to keep up, I eat at least twice the amount I would if I wasn't feeding him.

If this were me, I would have bloodtests run to establish what I was missing, then consider how I could make them up from vegetarian sources.

Hope you find something that works for you.

This is exactly what I thought I would do in your situation, or at least try first. The idea of eating flesh really bothers me, but if I was unable to satisfy my nutritional needs I would resort to it I'm sure. It is possible you might just need to replenish, and it seems to me you could do that without eating animal products if you know what it is you are lacking.


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## sha_lyn (Jul 27, 2002)

Quote:

My family are all type Os - hunter/gatherer type
My entire faimly are O's too. I've tried many diets over the yr for various health problems, weight loss etc. I really think with my blood type/body chemistry that I am suppose to eat meat.
I've given a lot of thought into it lately and I really think that it all depends on our genes. I mean, ancesotors in Artic/Subaritc regions evolved eating most high fat, high protein meat based diets. It was survival of the fittest. those would couldn't survive on that diet would have died.

The of course there were areas where grains, vegetables, fruits etc were more available and meat wasn't eaten either by choice or circumstance. They evolved not needing meats/high fat etc, and survived on a high carb diet.

However I know there are ways to get a more balanced protein/amino acid balance and remain vegetarian. If eating "flesh" bothers you then I suggest looking into that. I know I've read that you need to eat fat with your protein, so you mgiht want ot make sure you are consuming a healthy fat too. Iwonder if that is why eggs are working for you. You are getting the protein and the fat.


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## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

Hi!

Just wanted to affirm that you know what's right for you and your family.

That said, if you're really uncomfortable with the idea of eating flesh, you might want to visit a holistic nutritionist of some kind and have him/her look at your diet and determine if you have any deficiencies, esp. EFA's adn B vitamins. It's not automatic that a vegetarian diet of whole foods is a healthy diet--really it's not automatic for anybody's diet. Perhaps keep a food diary for a week or two before you go so that he/she could really make a good analysis.

And another point about the Moosewood Cookbooks--ONLY the books written by the "collective" include fish; the ones by Mollie Katzen do not. Another author you might want to look into is Christina Pirello--she advocates a whole-foods, macrobiotic-influenced diet that does include fish.

Good luck!

Priya


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
Hi!

Just wanted to affirm that you know what's right for you and your family.

That said, if you're really uncomfortable with the idea of eating flesh, you might want to visit a holistic nutritionist of some kind and have him/her look at your diet and determine if you have any deficiencies, esp. EFA's adn B vitamins. It's not automatic that a vegetarian diet of whole foods is a healthy diet--really it's not automatic for anybody's diet. Perhaps keep a food diary for a week or two before you go so that he/she could really make a good analysis.

And another point about the Moosewood Cookbooks--ONLY the books written by the "collective" include fish; the ones by Mollie Katzen do not. Another author you might want to look into is Christina Pirello--she advocates a whole-foods, macrobiotic-influenced diet that does include fish.

Good luck!

Priya 

I'm pretty sure christina pirello's OLD books/shows advocate fish but I think she did go vegetarian in more recent books.


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## QueenSheba'sMom (Feb 4, 2003)

What about eating some/more seaweed?


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## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
I'm pretty sure christina pirello's OLD books/shows advocate fish but I think she did go vegetarian in more recent books.




Hi!

I only have 2 books by CP--Cooking the Whole Foods Way (1997--does include fish) and Cook Your Way to the Life You Want (1999--does not include fish). What's interesting to me, nowt hat you've mentioned it, is that she's dropped fish in the 1999 book but has not addressed that change in the book. In the extreme foods chapter, she does not include seafood, and yet there are no seafood recipes in teh book. Hmm...you've stimulated my curiosity to read the book again to find out why.

Anyway, to the OP, I'll rephrase my comment that if you are looking for some fish recipes in teh context of a mostly-veg diet, you could look at Cooking the Whole Foods Way (1997) by Christina Pirello.

P.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
Hi!

And another point about the Moosewood Cookbooks--ONLY the books written by the "collective" include fish; the ones by Mollie Katzen do not. Another author you might want to look into is Christina Pirello--she advocates a whole-foods, macrobiotic-influenced diet that does include fish.

Good luck!

Priya 

I was going to recommend "Cooking the Whole Foods Way" by Christina Pirello - she has a yummy section of fish recipes but the rest of the book is vegan. A good way to start incorporating a little animal food.

As a former vegan who was not thriving, adding fish and eggs from our own chickens has made a big difference in my health.


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## BinahYeteirah (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
fish is one of the most toxic of the meats... but whatever. Also, you realize you would no longer be vegetarian if you ate fish?!

Well, this is a bit







T, but there is the term "pesca-vegetarian" meaning a vegetarian who eats fish. Not sure how people feel about that one, but it's interesting.


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## M. Kali (Jun 20, 2004)

Just wanted to add support for you following your instincts and intuition. As an ovo-lacto-vegetarian there were times when I would have dairy cravings for my firstborn who was doing soy and rice milk. I would give him a little and see his color come alive etc. Also started studying Ayurveda a few years ago and it affirmed the use of dairy for building "ojas" in babies. Of course, I did breastfeed so that was the primary dairy for my kids. We also started adding fish and now surprisingly chicken and the kids are flourishing. My dd actually demands organic milk and chicken.

Good luck - try not to guilt yourself with the flesh thing. We do what we need to survive and in a world where for a lot of people organic foods are way out of reach in more ways than one... I believe if you eat "to your health" the food will lift you up.

Peace.


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