# no means have aNOther drink- bluenotes tshirt slogan



## bikruca (Mar 7, 2004)

The clothing store Bluenotes is selling t-shirts in its stores across Canada that read, "No means have aNOther drink," blatantly offensive to date rape victims and women's rights activists. Apparantly, the company's response as of yet has been unapologetic.

Read more here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...HIRT17/TPStory

Please refuse to buy clothing at any of their stores (Bluenotes, Suzy Sheir, Stitches, Urban Planet, Sirens, and Siblings) until they take these items off the shelves, and contact them to tell them what you think of their message, at

http://www.blnts.com/home.php (click on "feedback" at the bottom of the page)

Help me send the message that promoting date rape is not profitable!

Please pass this on to your friends and family.

*copied from another forum from a rockin' mama (thanks!)


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Wow. That's ... well ... I can't believe they can sell something like that. What kind of marketing department thinks that's okay?

Will be boycotting.


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## bikruca (Mar 7, 2004)

update since i posted - it was pulled off shelves

http://www.empowerment4women.org/com.../insidethebox/

shows a pic of the shirt too


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## flyjawn (Nov 13, 2004)

you've got to wonder what the morons in the head office were thinking when they approved this shirt... i'm glad it's gone but depressed that it was ever there.


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## Neva (Feb 12, 2006)

La Senza, Silk and Satin and Raw Edge all also belong to this retail family.


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## CherieBerry (Feb 16, 2007)

What kind of person purchases a shirt like that?


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## ahisma (May 11, 2006)

I'm glad it's gone. I hope they didn't find that there was a market for such trash.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm glad it was pulled.
But I am not sure I'm comfortable shopping at a store that ever thought the shirt was 'funny' or marketable enough to even make it to begin with.

Which stinks, because they really are the only place around here that I can buy jeans for my short legs + mama booty.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

how did that even get out of "marketing"


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

(Donning flame resistant suit.)

I think it's funny.

There's a larger problem at work here. Women are told that "good" women don't have sex drives, and are supposed to be chaste. Men are told not to respect "loose" women. Only women DO have sex drives, but still want to be respected. So they play little games, say "I don't usually do this" don't want to look to prepared by carrying condoms, and yes, have another drink.

It doesn't say, "If she says no rape her" or "no means slip something in her drink" it instructs to buy them something they'll ingest willingly. Certain women who want to drink enough to avoid some sense of moral responsibility for their actions, blur the line for legal responsibility.

We did a great job of telling guys that "No means no" but we didn't at the same time tell girls, "It's okay to say yes." Or, "stop saying no unless you mean no."

Who wears this shirt? A guy who's had it with the mixed messages women send, and frustrated that good guys who take the first no as no don't get laid, and guys who take no as "Have another drink" or play the "lets go back to my place 'just to talk' where you can tell me you don't usually do this before taking my pants off" game are the ones who get it.

The shirt isn't the problem, didn't create the problem, I don't even think it perpetuates the problem. If anything it starts dialouge ABOUT the problem. Comedy has always been a way to diffuse tensions about a topic in order to begin discussion, look at Archie Bunker, political cartoons etc.

And aside from that, it's just a T-shirt. Lighten up. I think "Restraining orders are just another way of saying I love you" is funny too.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I hardly think that a tshirt marketed towards mainly a teenage buying group - has any place to be making light of date rape. I don't care if it makes me uptight, but I think it's irresponsible to allow boys/girls alike to think that "oh if she just has another drink she'll say yes". Because while it might make her "more sexually free", it will also make her feel like a slut the next day and will also make him think that when a woman says no, she doesn't really mean it.

Neither of those are the stuff jokes are made of, not in my world anyway.


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EvansMomma* 
I hardly think that a tshirt marketed towards mainly a teenage buying group - has any place to be making light of date rape. I don't care if it makes me uptight, but I think it's irresponsible to allow boys/girls alike to think that "oh if she just has another drink she'll say yes". Because while it might make her "more sexually free", it will also make her feel like a slut the next day and will also make him think that when a woman says no, she doesn't really mean it.

Neither of those are the stuff jokes are made of, not in my world anyway.

Who said anything about date rape? If a girl consents to sex when drunk, it's still consent. The problem is that girls don't always mean no when thy say no. The problem is that they need alcohol to express their sexual needs. Hell, the problem is that "slut" is even a word in our culture--there is no real male equivalent.

But in your world, you'd rather stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist and censor anyone who says it does. How does that help?
I find it amusing and sad that you use the expression "allow [them] to think" as if by stopping them from wearing the T-shirt you're controlling their thoughts as well. Or that you'd want to control their thoughts. Even moreso that those who do not control their thoughts (assuming it were possible) are irresponsible.

Funny, I always thought that the irresponsible parents were the ones that DIDN'T encourage their children to think for themselves.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gendenwitha* 
Who said anything about date rape? If a girl consents to sex when drunk, it's still consent. The problem is that girls don't always mean no when thy say no. The problem is that they need alcohol to express their sexual needs. Hell, the problem is that "slut" is even a word in our culture--there is no real male equivalent.

But in your world, you'd rather stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist and censor anyone who says it does. How does that help?
I find it amusing and sad that you use the expression "allow [them] to think" as if by stopping them from wearing the T-shirt you're controlling their thoughts as well. Or that you'd want to control their thoughts. Even moreso that those who do not control their thoughts (assuming it were possible) are irresponsible.

Funny, I always thought that the irresponsible parents were the ones that DIDN'T encourage their children to think for themselves.

What??? Are you serious? First of all, the T-shirt was an explicit play on the anti-date rape slogan "no means no"--or did you miss that? Date rape is exactly the issue at hand here.

And, I find YOUR definition of the "problem" to be offensive, and the problem. You say that "girls don't always mean no when they say no". Ok, so, how do you discern when a girl REALLY means no? What's the measure? If a girl says no, it's not an invitation to some loser guy to try and circumvent that no by supplying her with enough booze to make it easier to get a yes. If a woman turns you down, but you hover around waiting for her to get drunk so that she might have semi-conscious sex with you, you are a rapist.

I also disagree that girls are so sexually repressed that they need alcohol in order to express themselves sexually. What a crock! And, this T-shirt was designed for men, (not women who have 'lightened up).

As far as anyone sticking their heads in the sand, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Pretend what doesn't exist? Your theory of sexually repressed women?

Perhaps you should contact your local rape-crisis centre and ask the victims of sexual violence and the women who work with them how funny this T-shirt is. I'm sure everyone would find it hilarious.


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

Someone rightfully pointed out to me via PM that this isn't a debate forum, so I'm going to try to walk a thin line here answering your questions while de-escalating and removing myself from the conversation, unless you'd like to ask that the thread be moved elsewhere.

You're touching the elephant's tail saying rope, I'm touching it's side saying wall.

I'm seeing it from the perspective of guys who take girls to their apartment to "just talk" and 90% of the time have sex. My friends at least, are the 8 out of ten that take the other 10% home. You work with the victims of the other 2 out of ten that get raped and are bewildered because they thought they had agreed to just talk. I can understand why the shirt would make you angry.

But men are bewildered too. They can't chat up a woman at a bar and then say, "hey what do you say we go have sex" without getting slapped. So the cues are much more subtle. Few women will directly say "yes" and guys want to know, "If no means no, what means yes?"

I used to have a poster that said, "This is your brain, [eggs] This is your brain on drugs, [fried eggs] This is your brain on drugs with a side of bacon." It wasn't trying to belittle the seriousness of addiction, it was saying "Hey you're over-simplifying" Just as "no means no" is an oversimplification of the complexities of the human mating ritual.

Semi-conscious sex is only rape if they were too drunk to consent. So drunk they say yes but regret it in the morning is not, legally, rape, even if he encouraged her to get drunk.

What I mainly fail to understand is why you want it censored. I suppose our difference on that is that I see it as a valid opinion and not something thoughtless worn for shock value. (And assuming you're only calling for self-censorship by the company.)

Whether or not you agree with my opinion that people use alcohol to evade taking responsibility for their actions, (including women regarding sex) maybe it's not sticking your head in the sand, but I don't think you're seeing the whole elephant.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gendenwitha* 

Semi-conscious sex is only rape if they were too drunk to consent. So drunk they say yes but regret it in the morning is not, legally, rape, even if he encouraged her to get drunk.

.


This shirt is marketed towards TEENAGERS, who are still developing their sense of self worth and self image. Whether it's legally rape - it is still DEVASTATING to have a guy 'chat you up', offer you a few more drinks, tell you its fine and then you wake up the next morning not understanding fully what just happened. I WAS that teenager. I HAD a few more drinks - were my inhibitions lowerd? Sure. Was it legally rape when I woke up midway through the night with no clothes on? No. Did it feel like it? Absolutely.

We aren't talking about sexual freedom among you and your adult friends, we are talking about inappropriate marketing towards teenagers and very young adults.

This shirt was a VERY clear use of the No Means No slogan, in a way that I found disgusting. No Means NO - every time a woman says it. No does not mean "Ohhhh man, just have a few more drinks and you'll say yes". That's a disgusting attitude to have. And even more so when we're talking about young women and men. I would feel like an absolute failure if my son were to grow up to be the kind of man who thinks "She just said no, but I bet if I give her a couple more drinks she'll give in".

You ARE right though, this isn't a debate forum. And I'm sure my own personal experiences are colouring my own view of this a bit. But I still maintain that this is NOT about sexual freedom, or becoming "unrepressed" - this is about a joke being made about something that is a VERY serious and common problem among teens and young adults.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

While I am hesitant to comment any further on this topic, out of respect for women who have been, or may be triggered by this discussion, I want to comment on the issue of censorship.

I think there are instances where something that is so blatantly vulgar should be challenged. The message on this T-shirt undermined a decade (or so) of work by folks who acknowlegde that sexual violence against women is a very real problem, and who have brought the issue of date-rape to the forefront of discussions about sexuality, responsibility, accountability and respect.

To turn the 'no means no' slogan into a joke, in order to sell a product which, was designed and marketed to young men, makes a mockery of the efforts to educate boys and men that they are not entitled to have sex with a girl/woman, simply because she's 'had a few'.

You are right to say that human sexuality is complex, but I disagree that 'no means no' is an oversimplification. Any healthy sexual encounter reflects an on-going negotiation of consent between the two (or more) parties involved. Once a woman says NO--it means NO. Any self-respecting man who hears the word NO, regardless of a pre-existing understanding of 'consent', would not force the issue...otherwise, he is a rapist.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gendenwitha* 
(Donning flame resistant suit.)

I think it's funny.

There's a larger problem at work here. Women are told that "good" women don't have sex drives, and are supposed to be chaste. Men are told not to respect "loose" women. Only women DO have sex drives, but still want to be respected. So they play little games, say "I don't usually do this" don't want to look to prepared by carrying condoms, and yes, have another drink.

It doesn't say, "If she says no rape her" or "no means slip something in her drink" it instructs to buy them something they'll ingest willingly. Certain women who want to drink enough to avoid some sense of moral responsibility for their actions, blur the line for legal responsibility.

We did a great job of telling guys that "No means no" but we didn't at the same time tell girls, "It's okay to say yes." Or, "stop saying no unless you mean no."

Who wears this shirt? A guy who's had it with the mixed messages women send, and frustrated that good guys who take the first no as no don't get laid, and guys who take no as "Have another drink" or play the "lets go back to my place 'just to talk' where you can tell me you don't usually do this before taking my pants off" game are the ones who get it.

The shirt isn't the problem, didn't create the problem, I don't even think it perpetuates the problem. If anything it starts dialouge ABOUT the problem. Comedy has always been a way to diffuse tensions about a topic in order to begin discussion, look at Archie Bunker, political cartoons etc.

And aside from that, it's just a T-shirt. Lighten up. I think "Restraining orders are just another way of saying I love you" is funny too.









ITA..and I think it's funny too..







:


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
ITA..and I think it's funny too..







:

I am going to ask that this thread be closed out of consideration for those who have been affected by sexual assult.

I am disgusted and saddened that anyone would find the issues of sexual assult and violence against women "funny".


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

This thread is closed.

PPlease remember that there is NO DEBATE in the Activism forum. Don't agree with a cause, scroll on by. Think the counter cause is worthy...post a new thread. But no debate.


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