# I need help.



## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Seriously, I have done a ton of research... and so has my husband. He is well educated, knows all of the arguments and still is not budging; he is still for circumcision. It makes me want to vomit and shakes me to my very core. We are planning to sit down and resolve this once and for all on Saturday. (I am due Nov 3rd)

I have looked _everywhere_ and found _nothing_ that answers the one question that would put me at ease somewhat...

If we can not agree, (basicly if he does not decide to let it go) do I have any legal rights to prevent my husband from having the surgery done without my consent as well? I live in Charlotte, NC. Is there anything that I can do to protect my son?

Seriously, please. I don't want my marriage to end over this, but this cuts me so deeply that I don't know that I would ever get over it. I'd rather him cheat on me than to hurt my son.

(and don't anyone dare tell me it's not that bad, I'm a cornered momma bear who is likely to strike.)

Thank you for any help you can give me. I just need breathing space.


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

Contact John Geisheker from Docs opposing circ. He is wonderful and from what I know, yes you can stop it. If the hospital does a circ without your consent they are asking for a legal issue.

Heres their link- http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

I will PM you his email addy too-

Beth


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

You poor thing.








I'm so sorry. I don't know the specifics of the law, but I know others here do. When my ds was born, my dh and I weren't yet married....and I was not going to put him on the birth certificate, if it came right down to it. luckily it did not.

What is your dh's reasoning for not budging? He can't say "just because"....what are his reasons? Is it possible he is just in denial and needs more time to wrap his head around it?
Big hugs to you...and don't worry, you will never hear from me, at least, that it's not that bad. I would leave my dh if he insisted on circing just as I would leave him if he physically abused one of us. It IS that bad.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't think anybody here will tell you "its not that bad"!







!

Welcome. I hope your husband "comes around". All it took for my husband to not want to do it was to hear an actual medical professional (our pediatrician) in person say "its not necessary".

Have you told your husband what you've posted here? Do you have any idea why he wants to have it done? Is it a social thing? Does it just seem "normal" to him? Knowing this would help your approach. When I uploaded the video that's on my site, my husband helped with the technical part of making an online video. He had to watch that bit of the video over and over to get it "just right" and finally said "Anybody who can watch this and still do it...."


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

no advice just keep on fighting the good fight.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

You need to speak to a lawyer a.s.a.p. It wouldn't hurt to tell your husband that you are going to do this too. *You have a legal right to refuse circumcision, but you need to make sure that you secure some kind of an order of protection for your child, NOW.* David L. is a good circ attorney to consult first. A poster above also gave his PM, he comes in here frequently, so you can try to reach him like that too. Here is his office number:

David Llellyn is a Circ attorney in Georgia. He would give you your best advice.

David J. Llewellyn
Lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia
Member
Firm: Johnson & Ward

Location
2100 The Equitable Building, 100 Peachtree Street N.W.
Atlanta, Georgia 30303-1912
(DeKalb & Fulton Cos.)

Contact Information
Phone: 404-524-5626
Facsimile: 404-524-1769
URL: http://www.johnsonward.com
URL: http://www.lawyers.com/jwlaw


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

It seems his main reason is that of masculinity. He also went to bording school and was one who looked down on boys who were not circ'd in the locker room. he doesn't want there to be any social problems with it.

I think it is a bogus crap argument.

My husband and I have different ideas of what a real man is... his are pretty extreme and he discounts my opinion because I was raised in a matiartical family. He's also 350 lbs, 6 foot and large boned.... doesn't think he's physically intemidating.

He wants to throw out the medical and sexual arguments because of no concrete evidence either way. I'm left with religious and just standing my ground.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Oh, and I am homebirthing. There is no hospital involved, thank the good Lord.

Thank you for the lawyers number. I will wait until next Monday to call him if just knowing I have his info doesn't scare DH enough to back down. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

I had one friend (not boyfriend) in college who was intact. Born in about 1968, he was one of a very few intact guys. His parents had pinned a note on him at the hospital or something. They used to circ without any consent, back then..

Now to my point - in his college years he was very quick to tell girls that he was intact - for example he told me, even though we were just friends. And it was definately a positive thing, the way he talked about it. He never mentioned any issue with being teased, just that he was special (in a good way) that he had not gotten circed, becuase his parents took extra care to prevent it.


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## mamaginabean (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
It seems his main reason is that of masculinity. He also went to bording school and was one who looked down on boys who were not circ'd in the locker room. he doesn't want there to be any social problems with it.

What I would like to know is- what is a "real man" doing checking out other (men's, boy's) PENISES?? Seriously!

Your son can always choose to have it done later in life when he is mature enough to make that decision, but it can never be given back to him once it is gone. Stand your ground.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree completely. I am fine with having it done later, like after age 13 if HE wants it done.

kldliam- your inbox is full and won't let me reply.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

hold on...i'll fix that!


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## mamaginabean (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
I agree completely. I am fine with having it done later, like after age 13 if HE wants it done.

kldliam- your inbox is full and won't let me reply.

I don't believe that at 13 anyone would be mature enough to make that sort of decision. I was thinking more along the lines of 18+. But if you can convince your husband just to let it be, any time is better than no time. Your husband would probably come around as he gets used to it.

My husband was totally pro-circ. I told him that I did research and had decided not to do it. I also told him that if he did his own research, and came to a different conclusion than I did, that I would discuss it. I knew he wouldn't be able to come to a different conclusion than that it was a bad idea. Needless to say, DH is now an intactavist!


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

You are right about 13 being young... but DH's main concern _seems_ to be locker room related. I truely believe that if by that age I have not been able to instill in him (and I totally believe that I will be fully able to equip him with the assurance that he is better off than the poor boys who lost theirs) that his intact organ is not a plus, that he might never see it that way. And then to prevent locker room 'trauma' (that won't happen....) I would consent.

I totally don't believe it would ever happen.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Here's a good article for YOU to read about what is going on in your dh's mind:

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html

I hope that helps some.

And stand your ground, mama!!!!!!!

Say: "It ain't happening, over my dead body." Or a nicer way to put it would be, "I just can't let you do that to our son." Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Has he watched a video of it yet?

http://www.intact.ca/video.html

Make sure you make him watch it with the sound up.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
It seems his main reason is that of masculinity.

That's so interesting considering circumcision is genital reduction surgery and undeniably makes penises SMALLER.

Jen


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

I read that very article this afternoon...

In violition of my poor husband... this was his email response to an article I sent him via email about how some mothers responded... (at http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm)

Quote:

The one thing I really disliked was the following: Regarding circumcision, the father is more likely to deny his son's pain because it could remind him of his own circumcision feelings.

That's a crap sentence. It is written in an anti-man/feminist tone. It is as incorrect and inflammatory as writing "Women are more likely to ignore their own sons need for emergency room treatment for bleeding open wounds because it isn't as much blood loss as during their own menses." I mean come on, both are poor conclusions to draw - Why men may react to pain (anybodies pain: mother, son, wife, next door neighbor, their own, whatever) differently could be because a) they have no memory of the event, hence no negative memory of the event, b) the macho idea of it's a boy and if he's gonna grow up to be a man and not a wimp, he's gonna know how to take pain because "life is pain and anyone who says differently is selling something" - Princess BrideJ c) the sound of a child crying may not resonate as deeply with a father as it would with a mother - women are more empathetic, especially with a baby that just recently came out of their body and for all intents and purposes was their body just a short time ago, but ultimately, d) just because that is the way that it is - like any other right of passage or test or something, there is pain but it is manageable and not soul-shattering. No one has ever reported an infant nervous breakdown from a circumcision. And he won't hold a grudge or keep from bonding with mommy or become a serial killer because of a circumcision, because he won't remember and you have years of solid relationship building in front of you. If it were a tumor, we would cut it out immediately. We removed Dory's extra digits because of societal norms and teasing and (relatively) low health risk concerns. It was essentially cosmetic surgery. Same with circumcision.

I'm no rocket scientist, but to say that a father's opinion about the pain of circumcision is invalid because he is repressing his own pain is beyond insulting, it's bad logic and propaganda.

Some reasons why it may affect mommy more than daddy, or even baby:

mommy's recently removed bump - mommy has had baby be a part of her body for 9 months. She OWNS this child - and now you're going to hurt him and make him cry and scream? C'mon, in the heightened emotional state of post-partum (see baby blues) is it really fair to ask a mother to give a dispassionate assessment of what viewing and hearing a circumcision is? I absolutely believe those women feel and felt the way they did about circumcision - all I'm saying is that may not have been a fair time to ask them to make a value judgment on a contentious issue.
mommy's special relationship - mommy has had the luxury/burden of being that baby's everything and mommy has been able to fill every need, comfort every ill and now, after a week of mommy the perfect answer, she may get back a child whom she can't automatically fix - which would put her in the uncomfortable position of being just like everyone else, especially daddy
Mommy will never forget, baby will never remember. It will always be worse for mommy, especially since pain is fleeting but guilt is forever.

Obviously, it is an article written for women and it strikes an emotional touchstone. Just remember I love you and we can work this out.
Reading that made me want to reply to his email "Barf."
Instead I replied "I will remind you; with Dorothy we were correcting a birth defect. With circumcision, you are cutting off a normal functioning portion of the body. There is no comparison there."

(For more on my daughter's polydactily genetic 'birth defect', see my blog: http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...bbed-toes.html & http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...looked-at.html)


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture*
That's so interesting considering circumcision is genital reduction surgery and undeniably makes penises SMALLER.

Jen

Yup!

(another Jen!)


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

your son can be in the locker room with my sons. both my cut and intact ones. of the "sausage aisle" i have seen recently, our area is running about 70% cut- that means there are others around who are whole.

i told dh i could not do it. if he found a doc and took care of it with general anesthesia, fine. but then my dh can't do anything on his own so i knew it would be ok.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Re: your husband's email, extra toes and tumors are birth defects or incompatible with life. Foreskins are perfectly normal and functional and natural. Everybody is born with one and they don't grow and destroy life. Whatever the rest was about men and pain and women and such... I think he's just working that all out in his mind. Pain is pain - no matter if you "remember" it or not. Girls, boys, women, men.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

About your blog, the extra finger is only just "hanging there" and doesn't look useful even. Foreskins are useful and meant to be there.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

If I were you, I'd quit arguing with him at this point in time. If it were my dh, I'd tell him that it's just not happening because I'm pulling rank as the mama, regardless of what he has to say, and he can meet me in divorce court if he secretly gets the boy circ'd.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.

Well, good luck. Keep us updated! I know when you're right there at the moment, things are difficult to recall. I've been researching this subject for 9 years now so how difficult was it for me to just read and type?
















If he's really just wanting to "win" the argument, then I'd quit arguing with him. Would you really want your son to learn in years down the line "I guess you were circumcised because your father couldn't stand to lose an argument"?


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Oh, believe me.... A&A, this is where I am... I just want to avoid that if I can, we have enough of our other battles and have worked too hard on the marriage to pull it down like that. Plus I am a SAHM and want to continue that aspect of parenting.
But don't get me wrong, if need be, I'll pull that one and not look back... it's been in the back of my mind for MONTHS.

Sad to admit, but I never wanted to have a son... because I knew it would come to this sort of thing with DH. I really wanted all girls. I was proud of myself that I didn't cry at the ultrasound, John was surprised that I didn't. Don't get me wong, I will (and do) love Jack with all that a mother can.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

At our hospital, I was the parent who would have had to request circ and I very plainly stated to everyone who came into the room that he was not to be circ'd under any circumstances. I demanded it be placed into his medical records and I put a NO CIRC sign on his bassinet for the 10 minutes he ws in it. Several nurses told me that as the mother, it was legally my decision and it could not be done at DH's request, had he dared defy me.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argum
People who are not emotional, or show no emotion are scary. That is why they can easily dismiss other people's pain and suffering. A new child does not deserve a birth trauma of this magnitude. The _'he'll never remember it'_ garbage, doesn't give someone the right to inflict such serious pain on a brand new, trusting life.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

It's time to put your foot down. No more arguing, it's your SON'S decision to make, not either of yours. Tell your dh that there will be NO CIRC because it's your son's penis not either of yours.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I dont know if it will help, but my BIL's are not cut and they said they have NEVER been made fun of. Any guy looking another guys stuff and commenting on it got made fun of, not the guy he was talking about. Plus, concider that more and more boys are being left intact, so he probably wont be alone.
Also, the one time I heard a boy being made fun of for being intact (in high school), he turned it around and told the other kid that at least his mama loved him enough to not hack off part of his penis. Basically after the argument, the circumcised boy left crying







My 6 year old also had someone ask him about his "funny looking penis" and he simply said that his wasnt funny looking, his was normal. I hope he didnt go into more detail, lol-this child knows more about circumcision than most adults do (which sadly isnt saying enough).
I can safely say that if my dh insisted on having my ds circ'd, I would leave him in an instant. I love him, but I dont love anyone more than my children. Fortunatly he is one of those who hates being circumcised himself and it was never an issue....which brings up another point. Sooooo many men are going through restoration, so many are angry about what was taken from them. Your dh may be happy with his penis, but not all men are. While a man who doesnt like being intact (which rarely happens) can get circ'd, a man who doesnt like being circ'd can never truely go back to being intact.
Talk to the lawyer, find out your rights, and protect your baby!!


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

Yeah- from reading your dhs response I would just put your foot down and pull rank.

Say something like "This baby is coming out of MY body. I am the one who has watched what I have eaten, drank and have taken care of MY body for HIM. I am not going to allow any normal part of him to be removed. Period."

Know that the law is on your side- seriously contact John and ask for his legal advice on this matter. It sounds very seriouse and you need to know what the law states.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

*RE: they have no memory of the event, hence no negative memory of the event*

This is completely outdated nonesense. Babies are aware little people.

The Mind of a Newborn
Excerpt from The Mind of Your Newborn Baby
by David B. Chamberlain, Ph.D.
North Atlantic Books: Berkeley, CA 1998
10th Anniversary edition of "Babies Remember Birth" (1988).
(1999)

Infantile "Amnesia" is Dead!
by David B. Chamberlain, Ph.D.

Circumcision: Echoes in the Body
By Jeane Rhodes, Ph.D.

*RE: No one has ever reported an infant nervous breakdown from a circumcision.*

Bull. Babies have cried so hard they've ruptured their bladders. And it is so common for babies to go into a state of shock from the trauma, the glassy-eyed stare of an unanesthetized newborn with a gomco clamp attached to his penis has been nick-named, "circoma".

*RE: And he won't hold a grudge or keep from bonding with mommy or become a serial killer because of a circumcision, because he won't remember and you have years of solid relationship building in front of you.*

Wow, he's got some crystal ball and he obviously hasn't read the testimonies from thousands of men on restoring lists that deeply resent their newborn circumcisions and their missing foreskins, which would have contained 2-3 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10,000-20,000 specialized nerve endings. Nor is he probably familiar with the quote from psychiatrist Karl Menninger _"What we do to children, they will do to society."_ Or, the one from world renown midwife Suzanne Arms, _"If we hope to create a non-violent world where respect and kindness replace fear and hatred, we must begin with how we treat each other at the beginning of life. For that is where our deepest patterns are set. From these roots grow fear and alienation, or love and trust."
_
*RE: If it were a tumor, we would cut it out immediately. We removed Dory's extra digits because of societal norms and teasing and (relatively) low health risk concerns. It was essentially cosmetic surgery. Same with circumcision.*

Except the foreskin isn't an abnormality or birth defect; in fact, the exact opposite is true. If your son were to be born without a foreskin, he would have a congenital defect called aposthia.

The foreskin is normal, healthy, functional tissue that every little boy is meant to have. It protects the glans throughout life, keeping it soft, supple, and sensitive. It protects the urinary meatus from abrasion and scarification; without the foreskin, boys have a 10% chance of meatal stenosis, a condition virtually unheard of in intact boys. An adult foreskin contains 2-3 feet of vessels that supply the penis with blood, and circumcision severs them and also often the frenular artery. It also contains 240 feet of nerves and 10,000-20,000 specialized nerve endings. It also has immunological functions and provides a 'gliding mechanism' during self-stimulation and sexual intercourse, eliminating the need for artificial lubricants and making sex more comfortable and less abrasive for both partners.

I don't know that any of this would get through to your husband, but wanted to share anyway.

(((Hugs))) and best wishes. The others have given wonderful advice.

Jen


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bburnie2*
Say something like "This baby is coming out of MY body. I am the one who has watched what I have eaten, drank and have taken care of MY body for HIM. I am not going to allow any normal part of him to be removed. Period."


Awesome point mama!

And zz, I cried when I read your original post







I can really feel your struggle and heartache over this. It says so much to say you would leave your husband over this. It really shows how important it is to protect our children. You are strong and I really admire your dedication.

I cannot help with the advise, I am an amature. You are in good hands though with these other mamas.







They are the pros.

I cannot tell you how much I cannot stand the "he wont remember it routine." It is such crap. It is about the here and now. We do not torture innocent beings. Simple.


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

zzwhitejd - many







I am so sorry you are having to fight with your DH about this.

What I'm wondering is, if he's done all the research, why does he think that your DS would be made fun of in the "locker room"? Intact penises are becoming more and more the norm each year, with almost half being intact right now. So it's not likely he'd be the odd boy out with a foreskin anyway!

Has he thought about that fact, that it'll probably be about 50/50 anyway?

Good luck mama.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

You guys are awesome... thank you for all of the help.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robin926*
zzwhitejd - many







I am so sorry you are having to fight with your DH about this.

What I'm wondering is, if he's done all the research, why does he think that your DS would be made fun of in the "locker room"? Intact penises are becoming more and more the norm each year, with almost half being intact right now. So it's not likely he'd be the odd boy out with a foreskin anyway!

Has he thought about that fact, that it'll probably be about 50/50 anyway?

Good luck mama.









His stats are telling him it is skewed by the minority populations... and he only wants to compare his peers... also it is actually higher here in the bible belt.







I found today a suggestion that it is not only the low income and minorities who are truely changing but also the highly educated... anyone have a stat to back that up? He is afraid of his kid looking poor. (being a commuter student at boarding school in Maryland left him with status issues... IMO)


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

ZZ: I found today a suggestion that it is not only the low income and minorities who are truely changing but *also the highly educated... anyone have a stat to back that up?* He is afraid of his kid looking poor.
1. Well... my husband and I have 2 college degrees between us. That's 8 years of higher education. Does that count? We don't blindly follow all cultural practices. We also are not into craving 'status symbols' to help reassure us that we are better then others. Perhaps it was our education that tought us how to think critically, how to question these kinds of things. Dunno.

2. As far as the penis being made into a _status symbol_ by removing flesh that rightfully belongs there.....I just don't get it!

Why does a person's _private genitalia_ need to be made into a social status symbol? Think about that. It's just so bizarre. Will his son have all of the other status symbols in life too? What a hollow reason to put an infant through such a traumatic event.

His penis wont even function the way it's suppose to anymore....yet his social status is somehow elevated now??? The logic isn't there.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Regarding birth defects ... did you know that if a child is born without a foreskin they have to be recorded as having a birth defect???

With other birth defects, the aim is to FIX them! But by cutting off foreskins people are actually subjecting their child to something which is listed as a birth defect. Does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him a cleft lip? Does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him club feet? No? So why does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him a penis birth defect?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyMarmalade*
Regarding birth defects ... did you know that if a child is born without a foreskin they have to be recorded as having a birth defect???

With other birth defects, the aim is to FIX them! But by cutting off foreskins people are actually subjecting their child to something which is listed as a birth defect. Does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him a cleft lip? Does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him club feet? No? So why does he want to give your child unnecessary surgery to give him a penis birth defect?

That's such a good point! Especially given what happened with your dd... especially since he's bringing that into his arguments!







There's NO comparison between the two the way he said it







:

The thing is... he's not being logical. Why would someone be only teased in the locker room for "looking different?" In your dh's time circumcision was MUCH MORE COMMON even in the Bible belt than it is now. You might as well dress your son in the same clothes your dh wore in school so that he doesn't get teased about wearing "different" clothes than his father did. Of course, the clothes your dh wore in school are so far out of style now.... just like circumcision is becoming. There are likely to be several other intact boys in that locker room. And the fact that you're in the Bible belt also makes it much more likely that any boy teasing another boy about his penis would get made fun of WAY MORE for even looking at the other boy's penis.

Kids get teased for everything under the sun. If your son needs glasses will you be getting him laser eye surgery right away so that he won't ever be teased about wearing glasses (which is much more visible)? If your son reads a lot will your dh beat it out of him (I'm NOT CONDONING THAT - I'm a reader myself...) so that he'll be more manly and stop reading all the time? If your son is no good at sports then will you be giving him steroid treatments before he's even finished growing so that he can keep up with the "real boys" and won't be teased about not being good at sports? What if the school he goes to has a predominance of intact boys and your son is teased for being circumcised? Well... you can't undo it once it's done, but you can always have it done later. And you cannot prevent EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING THAT YOUR DS MAY PERHAPS SOMEDAY BE TEASED ABOUT. Children TEASE. (not yelling... lazy emphasis







: )

My dh is intact and was NEVER teased about his penis even though the rates here were still quite high for our age group (23 years old). My ex-bf was also intact and he was never teased either. In fact, both of them were (and are) quite happy that their parents left their foreskins attached.

I also have a friend who decided to be circumcised at the age of 19 because his gf requested it. If he had been circumcised at birth and had a gf who requested that he become intact then he would have been out of luck, but as it was, he was able to make the decision for HIMSELF (since it's HIS penis) to have it done. He still appreciated having the decision about cosmetic surgery on HIS BODY left up to HIM. Of course she dumped him a week or so later... but that's irrelevant.

It's not just an emotional thing (hmmmm.... I type that as I'm getting really emotional







). It's about allowing YOUR SON to have control over HIS OWN BODY. *It is NOT your husband's penis. He should have no control over what is done with your son's penis!* Legally, nobody should have the right to chop a fully functioning healthy piece off of another person's body. Ask him if your daughter would have been circumcised had she been born before 1996. Many men prefer the look and cleanliness of a circumcised female. It was perfectly legal to circumcise a daughter before 1996. Does he think FGM is wrong? Why is MGM okay then?

I wouldn't argue anymore with him either (though I just spent my whole post doing that







). Ultimatum: It's your son's body and he'll be circumcised without his consent over your dead body. Seriously. Especially since you're not good at debate. Let him debate with THAT.

We're all rooting for you









love and peace.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

OP, I'm sorry that you are going through this, and hope that you find some way to convince your DH.

I am very fortunate in that my DD is in fact a girl. We discussed circumcision while I was pregnant, and my DH is 100% pro, despite all the information I could give him regarding it. We ended up tabling the discussion based on the fact that DD was a girl, but I know that it will come up again, and I know he hasn't changed his mind.

This is a great thread for me to have found, so thank you. Reading this thread is giving me a lot of ammunition to use in the future.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

The circumcision rate is falling like a stone, *especially* among well-educated people. Your ds will not be the only intact male in the locker room.
When I first started posting here, my youngest son was 17 years old. I asked him if he'd ever been made fun of for being intact. His answer, "He**, no!" He then went on to say that it was a big taboo to look at another guy's equipment; the guy looking at him would be the one being made fun of, not him.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
Oh, believe me.... A&A, this is where I am... I just want to avoid that if I can, we have enough of our other battles and have worked too hard on the marriage to pull it down like that. Plus I am a SAHM and want to continue that aspect of parenting.
But don't get me wrong, if need be, I'll pull that one and not look back... it's been in the back of my mind for MONTHS.

Sad to admit, but I never wanted to have a son... because I knew it would come to this sort of thing with DH. I really wanted all girls. I was proud of myself that I didn't cry at the ultrasound, John was surprised that I didn't. Don't get me wong, I will (and do) love Jack with all that a mother can.


Oh, you will love your son immensely, I know that. And you'll love him even more knowing that you protected him from what so many boys in this country have to endure.

It may help you to know that mamas on this board who have had to say "circumcising him will cost us our marriage," have all had husbands who have backed down. I don't know of any case where the mother actually had to go through with a divorce strictly because of that.

So just keep saying, "I can't let you do that to our son." And your answer to "Why" will be, "Because I'm his mama and I said so." Repeat, repeat, repeat. Very last minute you can pull out the statement of, "it will cost us our marriage if you go through with your threats to harm our son." And secretly contact David Llewellyn on the side, asking his advice about the legal aspect of protecting your son.

AND MAKE YOUR HUSBAND WATCH THE VIDEO.


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

One more thing the other mamas reminded me of. I worked in lots and lots and lots daycare centers. I always worked with the diaper-wearing crowd. I saw my first intact penis on a two-year-old boy in 1992 at a university day care. This is where I did my Internship for my BS degree. The people who had their children there were mostly educators.








On a side note, one of the dummies that was also doing an intership exclaimed to the lead teacher upon seeing this little guys penis, "OH MY GOD, is that poor kid Jewish!?" People are so







stupid!









Ok, back to my intact penis experience in the daycares. I also worked at a prestigious teaching hospital in their employee daycare. SO MANY OF THOSE KIDS WERE INTACT! This is in the early to mid 1990's. These are the kids of doctors, nurses, educators, administrators and the like.

I have also worked in daycares for low-income mamas. Did not see any intact penises there. Just a thought for your case against circ.









All of these centers were in the South, NC and VA.

I also totally realate to your desire to reamine a stay-at-home mommy. I hate daycare centers, even the nice ones, they just are a bunch of prop-up-the-bottle, don't spoil the baby by holding them, jerks. IMHO.


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

I don't have much to add, you have been given great advice. I just want to say though that I admire your resolve. I just looked at your blog too, and I was struck that you know you and your daughter have a "difference" in your life (your cool toes







) and from all appearances it did not scar you one bit!! It just stands out to me that your husband is bringing up the locker room and being teased thing when he clearly has a wife that knows exactly how to deal with that!!

I think you are doing an awesome job and I have no doubt whatsoever you will convince your husband to do the right thing!


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Have you seen, "The Vulnerability of Men", by Vincent Bach?

Jen


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Jenny, hugs to you.

I am shocked at your DH's idea that "it's a masculinity thing", and his idea is that "less is more"!!!

As for teasing - how does your DH know that the high school bully will be circumcised?? How would he feel if the locker room bully was intact, and teased the circumcised boys for having the best part of their penis cut off?

Isn't it better to teach your son to deal with bullies and teasing, so if he is teased for being too short, too tall, too fat, too thin, too smat, not smart enough, for having acne, wearing glasses, having braces, or funny hair, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars surgically correcting each "defect", until finally the bullies are satisfied that your son meets their approval??


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Mama, I think you're actually ahead of the game, and here's why:

Your dh recognizes that circumcision is no more than COSMETIC surgery. Don't let him weasel out of that statement - start with, "I'm glad you agree with the world's most prestigious medical associations that there is no medical or hygienic reason for circumcision, and that it is non-therapeutic (cosmetic) surgery."

Then tell him that you are not consenting to cosmetic surgery on your newborn for any reason. End of story. The only person who has the right to consent to cosmetic surgery is the person who will undergo the surgery.

If your dh makes you all flustered and tries to beat you down verbally -- which is verbal and emotional abuse, IMO -- then just stop arguing and be a solid wall that he can't get a fingerhold on. Just repeat, over and over, "I am not consenting to cosmetic surgery on my son." Don't let him make you defensive - you are in the right, and you don't have to justify it to him. Just stop arguing -- take your wind out of his sails -- but let him know the consequences of him taking your ds behind your back to be circed, i.e. that the marriage will be over if he disrespects you and your ds that much.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

As my brother calls anyone circ or not looking at the sausage department (gays) but he uses the slang word for it. He also adds pervert to that too.

Anyways, if your dh was the one who looked down on a guy who was intact(sad sad don't seem like he had enough 'security' in himself.

As a gal who has a 'birth defect' made fun of throughout my years I was taught when people make fun of others they think less of themselves so they feel that they have to believe they are 'better' than other people.

With his views I would assume a 'simple threat' would be not sufficent because he may be in the mind-set she will never follow through with that 'because' (list reasons to make you seem lower & him better as the in charge person) . I would definetly find a way to get a lawyer involved because he is already believes he has the right to over step you .


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm both poor and educated







Although I will admit that being poor and on medicaid is what saved my oldest from circumcision-I had done no research, hadnt even thought of it, but since medicaid wasnt covering it...I wasnt about to pay for it and after hearing that I thought well, it must not be necessary then huh?
However, both myself and dh are college students, we concider ourselves to be pretty smart, and we have done the research. I can also say that most of the broke people I have met have had their sons circ'd while the college educated, reasonably wealthy people have not. I think I am lucky because I have friends from all walks of life....the exception has been much older parents-mid to late 40's-who are educated but still circ'd. Why? Because when they were growing up it was normal and NO ONE told them otherwise (and niether one of those who I am thinking of have the internet either). This is part of what makes me so mad. They ask "do you want to circumcise" and if the parents say yes, thats that. They dont give any facts. My friends had no clue and said there is no way they would have done it if they had known. Especially since one of the kids (he's 8) has several friends who are intact and only one who is circ'd.
Anyway, it is true that a lot of the immigrants are not circ'd and many stay intact, because for them and their culture, the idea of cutting an infants penis is just discusting-as it should be!! However, since he is so concerned about his "peers" (which I think is kind of messed up anyway-what is he going to do if his best friend happens to be Mexican?? Is he racist too?), most of the poor white people I know circ and the wealthy white people dont. Again though, I doubt that he will be in a school with 100% white kids and you know that not only are some of those white kids going to be intact, but a majority of the immigrants and/or their children are going to be intact, black people have a lower rate of circ, etc. So when he is in the locker room, if another boy looks at him, I doubt there would be any making fun of anyway (I mean, there shouldnt be even if he were the only intact guy because again, its not cool to be staring at another guy), because he will probably have several other guys in there that are intact too.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Mama, I think you're actually ahead of the game, and here's why:

Your dh recognizes that circumcision is no more than COSMETIC surgery. Don't let him weasel out of that statement - start with, "I'm glad you agree with the world's most prestigious medical associations that there is no medical or hygienic reason for circumcision, and that it is non-therapeutic (cosmetic) surgery."

Then tell him that you are not consenting to cosmetic surgery on your newborn for any reason. End of story. The only person who has the right to consent to cosmetic surgery is the person who will undergo the surgery.

If your dh makes you all flustered and tries to beat you down verbally -- which is verbal and emotional abuse, IMO -- then just stop arguing and be a solid wall that he can't get a fingerhold on. Just repeat, over and over, "I am not consenting to cosmetic surgery on my son." Don't let him make you defensive - you are in the right, and you don't have to justify it to him. Just stop arguing -- take your wind out of his sails -- but let him know the consequences of him taking your ds behind your back to be circed, i.e. that the marriage will be over if he disrespects you and your ds that much.
































PERFECT!!!

Jen


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
You are right about 13 being young... but DH's main concern _seems_ to be locker room related. I truely believe that if by that age I have not been able to instill in him (and I totally believe that I will be fully able to equip him with the assurance that he is better off than the poor boys who lost theirs) that his intact organ is not a plus, that he might never see it that way. And then to prevent locker room 'trauma' (that won't happen....) I would consent.

I totally don't believe it would ever happen.

I'm in Atlanta so I expect you and I both are going to be in a majority MGM'd situation for a while longer with new babies here in the South ... but things are moving intact FAST. Look at Florida. Look at the West. Is your husband *sure* you are going to live in Charlotte when the locker room situation finally becomes a reality? Or when your son starts having sex? Might he want to go to Stanford for college or spend a year at Oxford? What if your DH gets a job in Oregon and you move? One situation can be changed (sigh) with a phone call to a doctor, a nerve block and a script for pain pills. The other can not.

I've got ZERO concern about my son in the locker room. Zero.

My husband, circ'd, child athlete of the world, high school football captain, college baller, major user of locker rooms to this day, has NEVER mentioned any concerns. When I said I didn't want to circ, he totally agreed, while having no particular passion for the subject, that circ is unnecessary. And believe me, he is pretty mainstream and wants our children to be well groomed and popular and to go to the right schools to meet the right people and so forth. He contemplates the teenage years.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Zz, my dh is a big ol' argumentive former-Marylander-living-in-the-South guy too, so I am maybe more sympathetic to your dh than I'd be otherwise. To me, he is sounding kind of desperate, actually- more like he is trying to convince himself.

If it makes him feel better, my dh is from affluent Columbia & our kids are happily intact







. It may have used to signify status to some extent in this country, but that is ancient history. _All_ the right people are eschewing circumcision these days.









I'd keep arguing. You are gaining ground, really. At this point I think he just wants to be convinced. (After all, if you don't back down, it's not happening, period. One day he will likely be holding his sweet son & shaking his head that he could have ever considered cutting him).

Best of luck & all my encouragement- send him here when you get tired, we LOVE a good argument.


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

I think its also worth mentioning that your dh is trying to convince himself that HE'S fine. For men who are circed, having to consider leaving a ds intact usually means that have to accept the fact that they are missing something. And, humans by nature will do ANYTHING to protect their own sense of self and security- so denying his son what was denyed him is his own way of proving he is ok too-


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

i dont advocate this, but since you asked.

At the delivery if you are adamant about making sure it doesnt happen you can tell the doctors you don't know who the father is, you don't consent to dna testing and you do NOT want a circumcision.

That pretty much leaves all the rights in your corner..... but you will have serious issues in your relationship.


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## ~Shanna~ (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm still growing my baby, but I managed to convert DH before we conceived. One of the things that helped me was realizing that my DH felt the tiniest bit rejected that I didn't want our son circumsized like he was. It's not rational, it's not true, but it doesn't make it any less real to them. I wonder how much it might catch your DH off-guard if you were to acknowledge that it has to be tough for him to mourn the loss of his son's experience being so different from his? I'm not saying play to his confidence that it doesn't do any harm, but mourn with him that the paradigm shift means that his penis isn't the status quo anymore.

The other thing that helped with my DH was that he couldn't deny (between changing professional recommendations and falling circ rates) that the trend was changing, and that our son would be so obviously on the "wrong side of history" (was how I think he put it). Your DH is probably seeing this as a "trend" that ebbs and flows. It may help if you were able to make him understand that it's more along the lines of changes in thought on child labor and slavery - there is a right answer, and there's no excuse for us that we didn't "know".


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

Yoshua, she's having a homebirth.









Jenny, Don't let the baby out of your sight for years. Be sure to contact Mr. Llewelyn as you said you plan to. He will have some good ideas.

As soon as your ds is old enough to learn about body parts, include 'penis' 'foreskin' and 'scrotum/testicles'. As soon as he is old enough to understand a little bit of what you say to him, teach him that he has a normal penis and mama loved him too much to remove part of it, and we feel badly for boys and men who have had it taken away.

If you never let the boy out of your sight, your dh can't have it done. As a SAHM, you will be in 24 hour presence of your child. When you get weary or fatigued, you can leave him with a woman friend who shares your values, but not alone with his father. I'm sorry to say that.









If you guard him for long enough, you will have time to teach the child to protect himself.

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for your son, that his father learns to buck up and be a father and protect the child's body, rather than serving his own insecurities.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Everyone, thank you. You have certainly given lme the support that i have needed to get through this. On my other AP/NL board, there are still many people who would argue that it is no big deal and that they don't have a penis so they let their DH choose... I think it is a such a crap argument.
I think I can go into this calmer now and not feeling like a caged squirrel about to be squashed.
At this point, he would have some hoops to jump through since we will not be at the hospital unless there are complications with our planned midwife and doula attended homebirth.
Thank you all very much. I will certainly let you know how it goes. (Or more accurately, how he takes the news.)


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I know you can do it, Jenny! And I'm glad we were here to help.

Sometimes I think about the number of women in the last 50 years who instinctively knew that they didn't want their baby boys cut, but didn't have the support to give them the strength to fight husbands, families, and neighbors.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
Sometimes I think about the number of women in the last 50 years who instinctively knew that they didn't want their baby boys cut, but didn't have the support to give them the strength to fight husbands, families, and neighbors.

I completely believe that!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I wanted to tell you to be sure that your dh dosnt have time alone with the baby. There was a mom here who's dh "let it go" he didnt agree not to have it done just told her they would talk about it later since her birth was kinda ruff and a week later the concent forms to have him circed showed up at her home. The dh had went and had him mom to call and request the papers sent to her but they got sent to there house instead. It was not the ped they used it was a different ped as well so that she wouldnt find out till after the fact.







had that not happened her little boy would prolly be circed now.







: He had every intention of giving her "some mommy time" and take the baby for a few hours. I am not saying your dh would do this and I am not telling this to you to scare you but you should be aware this could happen.

I know you said you were having a home birth but just in case something happens and you should need to be transfered to the hospital is there someone other than your dh who could stay with the baby constantly? Some one you could trust 100%. Be sure to tell anyone and everyone in the room even if it is the cleaning woman/man that your son is not to be circed and no one can sign the concent other than you. Some hospitals require the mom to sign but there have been cases were the dad has signed. There have also been babies circed at as little as 2 hours old







so dont take anything for granted. Cover all your bases.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Melissa... while I don't believe my DH wold ever do that and I know he would be offended for me thinking that he would.... it has crossed my mind. More than once. Thanks for the story.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:

On my other AP/NL board, there are still many people who would argue that it is no big deal and that they don't have a penis so they let their DH choose... I think it is a such a crap argument.
This has come up before. Remind those dh that THEY don't have a foreskin-- so actually, they know less about intact genetalia than the mothers. This really does illustrate that the foreskin is totally being discounted-- mostly out of ignorance.

Stay strong and keep on top of the issue. Maybe time and your resolve will make an impact on your dh and he will start to open his mind.

Jessica


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

I cannot imagine a father doing something like that to his wife- OMG! I am just speechless. I mean- how can a husband/dad do that? Do they seriously think the mom would just not notice? Some ppl just don't THINK.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
i dont advocate this, but since you asked.

At the delivery if you are adamant about making sure it doesnt happen you can tell the doctors you don't know who the father is, you don't consent to dna testing and you do NOT want a circumcision.

That pretty much leaves all the rights in your corner..... but you will have serious issues in your relationship.

Good advice if dh is still adamant. (And at that point, she'd have serious issues in her marriage, anyway, with dh still wanting to circ.)


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I'm overjoyed w/ all the dedicated and logical responses to this predicament, and I'd like to add this:

*MAKE HIM* watch the British documentary "It's A Boy!". It's a FASCINATING and TRAGIC and terribly INFLUENTIAL documentary showcasing one birth throughout the other stories showcased (one being a British Jewish mom who refused to have her son put through a circumcising bris ceremony despite intense pressure, including guilt from her mother). Starting off with a British man marries a Jewish British woman and they have a son. She _insists_ on a bris and because of complications of the circumcision, the poor boy *died* because of it! I found it truly _heartbreaking_ to see and she refused to be a part of this documentary. The worst case scenario play out in real-life and *THIS* could be the fate you're sending your son to by circumcising!

I know you're not Jewish and I'm not stressing the religious part of this couple's tragedy... I'm _accentuating_ that people think complications (botched circumcisions) "wouldn't happen to OUR son; it's always another poor boy" and I think it's RARE that circumcising parents ever consider death as being the worst case scenario. It's like they have tunnelvision, KWIM?

I think spending 1 hour watching this documentary could be _extremely_ effective in changing his mind. And I don't want you to think of it as JUST a scare tactic into not circ'ing. Far from it. The other stories are those who have rejected circumcision for the best intersts of their sons.

Just a suggestion. I wish to heck I had saved it on tape when I taped it on TVO (TVOntario, our provincial public educational broadcaster) when it aired in the mid-'90s! I think I researched it online and it would cost $120 to obtain a copy of it.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I don't have any more advice than already given, but my DH wanted DS circed too. Mother's are the only ones that can sign consent forms for newborns in the hospital so it was no argument. I wasn't signing and there wasn't anything he could do about it.

I wish DH would have at least been open minded to listen to the reasons why I wanted DS whole. He wasn't interested. He also knows that if he did get DS circed, I would leave him and take DS with me.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I hope you are ok, mama.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

So far there have been too many other things to do to actually finally discuss this.... but, i will be informing him this evening at the latest that we will NOT be going trough with it... in the most male sensitive way that i can.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Good luck and let us know how he takes the news. I'm so proud of you.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I have never understood how a man can choose to gentially mutilate his child based on *FOUR* years of his life, when the child isn't even old enough to live by himself.

If a person lives to be eighty, does anyone really think they will care about highschool when they are twenty, even. And when they are thirty, will decisions in their life be based on highschool events? And when they are getting married, will what they did in highschool matter? And when they are forty, will being naked in a locker room in highschool matter? And when they are fifty and the kids have moved away, will someone teasing them about their foreskin in highschool haunt their dreams at night? And when they are sixty and on a cruise, will the the memories of highschool ever even be thought about?

People are making the decision to cut their children, based on FOUR years of schooling, where you know what...YOU KID PROBABLY WON'T EVEN BE NAKED!!! Unless they are on the football team. My DH was never naked in gym class. In fact, I don't know anyone who was, and I have asked for research reasons!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Sending you blessings and love during this difficult time.


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## tree_hugger (Aug 22, 2004)

How's it going, Jenny?

DH and I actually went to marriage conselling over this issue when I was pregnant with DS1. It didn't help us at all, in the end I just had to put my foot down and refuse to discuss it any more. I promised him that if he tried to do it behind my back I would leave him.

That was three intact sons ago ....

Good luck, Mama.


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## Tinijocaro (Jan 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.

I would get away from the pain angle and just tell him that since there is nothing wrong with your son or his foreskin, then there will be no surgery. He needs to prove why his son "needs" this surgery, not why he "wants" it. Ask him why he feels he has the right to modify his son's perfect genitals. How would he feel if you wanted to do the same for your daughter without medical indication? It's not his right. He doesn't know hwat 'style" genitals his son will want whenhe is a man, so he should leave that for his son (the man) to decide. When we have babies, it's hard to imagine that they will grow up, but they will, and they will have opinions about the decisions you've made form them.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I am coming to this late, and I am not sure what religion (if any) you are a part of, but- I thought I read you mention above that he knows it's not medically indicated, so religious discussion might have some impact. If so- I would point out, that God does NOT make all infant boys in need of immediate surgical correction, and that it is an insult to Him to imply that He did something wrong in making them.


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## mamaofthreecats (Aug 17, 2006)

i'm living in asheville nc right now, but i'm originally from michigan where the mother has the first legal rights to their babies. for example, if you take your kid to the doctor and they write a perscription---whether you give it to your kid or not, you still have to get it filled or the MOTHER gets in trouble.... i'm not sure about nc though. the doctor never asked my husband about circing, only me....


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthreecats*
i'm living in asheville nc right now, but i'm originally from michigan where the mother has the first legal rights to their babies. for example, if you take your kid to the doctor and they write a perscription---whether you give it to your kid or not, you still have to get it filled or the MOTHER gets in trouble.... i'm not sure about nc though. the doctor never asked my husband about circing, only me....

You HAVE to fill it?!?!? How absurd! NC is not like that at all.... I live in Charlotte.

Well, we never did discuss it, but my mind is as clear as can be, and I will not be permitting it, period. And the discussion will be short since I am the default position, leaving him alone. Thank you to all who have given me the conviction to back up my instinct and knowledge!


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## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Mama, I think you're actually ahead of the game, and here's why:

Your dh recognizes that circumcision is no more than COSMETIC surgery. Don't let him weasel out of that statement - start with, "I'm glad you agree with the world's most prestigious medical associations that there is no medical or hygienic reason for circumcision, and that it is non-therapeutic (cosmetic) surgery."

Then tell him that you are not consenting to cosmetic surgery on your newborn for any reason. End of story. The only person who has the right to consent to cosmetic surgery is the person who will undergo the surgery.

If your dh makes you all flustered and tries to beat you down verbally -- which is verbal and emotional abuse, IMO -- then just stop arguing and be a solid wall that he can't get a fingerhold on. Just repeat, over and over, "I am not consenting to cosmetic surgery on my son." Don't let him make you defensive - you are in the right, and you don't have to justify it to him. Just stop arguing -- take your wind out of his sails -- but let him know the consequences of him taking your ds behind your back to be circed, i.e. that the marriage will be over if he disrespects you and your ds that much.


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## sun-shine01 (Aug 9, 2002)

After reading all the posts my take is that your DH wants to circ because your son MIGHT be teased one day.

Yes, he might be teased but tell your Dh that this WILL break your heart. No question about it and that you will never forgive it. Is possible teasing worth a broken family to him.


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## NomadMomma (Aug 1, 2006)

For 10 years DH and I have been at an impasse on the issue. No matter what I asked, or pointed out he would not budge,
Up to this point we had no sons to finish the issue with, until Sunday Sept 3rd I gave birth (at home unassisted) to an 8 lb baby boy.

On day 2 following birth, dh was anxious to get jr. to the doc, and I assumed I had lost the battle and he was taking him to be cut, Imagine my delighted surprise when I asked he said, no he just wanted baby to get a good once over by a doc to assure us all was well.







:

I CRIED! I was SO SURE this was always going to be an issue, and I almost fainted when he said that it was not worth me being upset, and he would live with his son looking different!

WHOO HOO!







Count this as a MAJOR victory folks! THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart, I am sure this post (which I forwarded on to him to read) was the deciding factor.
Wandering Nomad mamma to 5 blessed angels!


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## Cherries10700 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
Oh, and I am homebirthing. There is no hospital involved, thank the good Lord.

Thank you for the lawyers number. I will wait until next Monday to call him if just knowing I have his info doesn't scare DH enough to back down. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!


Since you're homebirthing, how about choosing an intact friendly pedi... So there won't be a chance in He11 that it'll hapen in his/her office when you take the baby in...


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NomadMomma*
WHOO HOO!







Count this as a MAJOR victory folks! THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart, I am sure this post (which I forwarded on to him to read) was the deciding factor.
Wandering Nomad mamma to 5 blessed angels!









That is Wonderful


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## Cain (Dec 24, 2004)

That's funny that he thinks this is aimed at women....I'm a properly educated voice on the subject (being an intact male) and absolutely see this from the intact point of view. I guess I'm sort of like him in the sense that I can't imagine being without this, while he can't possibly imagine what _he's_ missing without this. I'll never know his side (thankfully) and he'll never know my side (unfortunately) for if he DID know what I know and feel what I feel, he wouldn't be so unfazed by the removal of THE most single-handedly WONDERFUL part of the very thing he thinks with 89% of any given day. I can't friggin' get enough of it!

As to the person posting this: I'm in Illinois, and I believe there is a law against it. I know when we were going through all the motions (naming, signing no-circ papers) EVEN THOUGH I was signing the birth certificate, I had absolutely NO RIGHTS to even NAME the child. We were told only the mother is able to legally sign for the name, and if she wanted to name (our son) Brad Pitt, SHE may do so. It didn't matter one iota what I wanted his name to be, so I imagine it's the same thing with relation to any procedure or likes of that....

We don't really get any sort of decision making in the deal, it's left up to the mothers. But you should check out SPECIFICALLY what rights you have under law of whatever area you're in. It varies state-by-state I imagine. Check it just so you know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zzwhitejd*
I read that very article this afternoon...

In violition of my poor husband... this was his email response to an article I sent him via email about how some mothers responded... (at http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm)

Reading that made me want to reply to his email "Barf."
Instead I replied "I will remind you; with Dorothy we were correcting a birth defect. With circumcision, you are cutting off a normal functioning portion of the body. There is no comparison there."

(For more on my daughter's polydactily genetic 'birth defect', see my blog: http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...bbed-toes.html & http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...looked-at.html)


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Good for you for staying so strong! Dh wanted ds2 circed, and even called to schedule an appointment (we had a homebirth). I told him that if he even attempted to take him out of the house I was leaving. Period. He cancelled the appointment.

Dh was upset about leaving ds2 intact for quite awhile, it was never a marriage issue, but it upset him. Then, one day, he read some intactivist articles (that were left in the bathroom.....) and the light-bulb finally went off in his head, and he told me that after reading all the stuff, he felt so good about leaving ds2 intact........now he's an intactivist!

I think that men receive information better if they do it on their own (or think they do, lol), and can also get that information from others...

I know it helped that our midwife and pedi were very against circing; hopefully this will be your case as well.


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Well, I am sorry to leave you all for so long without an update! My labor started before this was finally hashed out. But, I seem to like Prodromal labors and this one was no different... it stalled 2 days while we finished this out. On Saturday Oct the 28th John and I had a very abstract conversation where I knew what he was getting at but was on the surface about something else. A few minutes later after a lull he asked, "So, what have you decided about circumcision?" I said, with tears, "I just can't." He told me he didn't want to see me right then, so I went shopping with my mom for a present for my eldest from the baby. He spent the faternoon thinking about the logistics of our divorce. The next morning he was a good bit better... while in the shower getting ready for church he had the tought that if he got a 'hummer' a week that he would be okay.







I figure it was a great trade! He has later nixed the deal since he doesn't want something based on obligation, but that is another story altogether. I knew Sunday morning that Jack was on his way, and when we walked into church and someone asked when the baby was coming, I told them "today". Sure enough, labor started when we got home that aftenoon. Jack was born the next day at 5:19pm. At very nearly 4 months old, he is still intact and will remain so, is over 16lbs and my marriage is still standing.
Thank you for all of the support that I have recieved. You have all helped me with the struggle. DH still isn't thrilled, and really hated changing dipes for awhile, but it doesn't seem to surface bother him now.
John's largest issue with my saying 'no' was that it was choosing my son over my husband. He still sees it like that. I really do not. I am a mother and a wife, I love my husband very much... but I can not seperate out the mother FROM the wife, I am both an have to be true to both. If I had 'chosen' my DH, I would have fallen apart and my marriage would certainly have been shortly behind. I made a decision for both. I just wish he could see that. Maybe one day he will.









Bottom line: Jack's intact!!!!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Yay!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

i live for updates like yours







:


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

What wonderful news! Great job, mama







Hopefully your dh will come around more eventually too...

love and peace.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

You rock!!! I love happy updates


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

Oh my goodness! I was thinking of you just yesterday morning and wondering how things went and couldn't remember your site name to look you up! Talk about ESP!

So happy for you and Jack!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *falcon* 
You rock!!! I love happy updates
































:


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ivan's Mom* 
Oh my goodness! I was thinking of you just yesterday morning and wondering how things went and couldn't remember your site name to look you up! Talk about ESP!

So happy for you and Jack!









How funny!!! We are doing GREAT!


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Yay!!! Good Job Mama!!!


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

What a great ending. I am proud of you and happy for Jack and I also hope at some point your dh is actually happy with this, not just settled. Congrats all around!


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

awesome.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

YEAH!!!!!!!

Thank you so much for the update!


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Congrats!!! Way to go!


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

How awesome! I am so thrilled to hear your update. And at 16 lbs, it sounds like he's not starving one bit!







. I've got a 4.5 month old who's 13 lbs.


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

Yay! It's great to hear news like this, it makes me very hopeful. Hopefully your DH will come around and your marriage can strengthen. It is also good to hear that YOU stuck by your guns (I admit I didn't read the entire thread, just your first post and the update). It makes me so sad to hear a mom doesn't want to circ her son, then she gives in to her DH. I know from personal experience that it takes a lot of strength to stand up for your self/your son when it comes to your spouse.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Wow, so happy for you Momma and your little man!


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Wow - what a great update! So happy for you and your son.

You were definitely not choosing between your husband and your son. You were simply respecting your son's bodily integrity and not making the decision to surgically alter him without his consent.

Way to go, Mama - you rock! (and your son AND dh are both pretty lucky to have such a loving, strong mother and wife).


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

Yay! Good goin' momma! Hopefully your husband has gotten to know your little boy and sees him as an indivudual and realizes that it wasn't his penis to mess with.


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm so glad to hear that!!!


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

This is GREAT news!!!







Good for you for standing up for your son's rights to a whole body!







I am Sooooo proud of you!







:


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