# why is it my kids never behave but other kids do?



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I have 2 boys 5 and 2. I dont believe in punishments, timeouts etc. I aspire to living consensually with my children, altho its not always possible. I look for their needs first to explain their behaviour when it irks me.

here's the problem-when we go to children's services at the synagogue, it is my kids, who always disrupt. 2yo runs around, climbs the furniture. 5yo, makes silly noises that are disruptive (sometimes he will answer questions and participate in a more mature manner,...sometimes) When at some other gathering, my kids will run into a place where they are not supposed to go.

Other kids their age-dont seem to do this. Occasionally, one child (always a boy, and gender seems to explain some of this) will exhibit a similar behavior. Great, my boys have a playmate.

But before long, a mom or dad comes to the scene, and drags their kid away. Thats the end.

If i drag my kid away, they just keep on doing what they were doing.

If there is a place they are not supposed to go to, my kids will go anyway. If they have a playmate, that playmate hesitates, looks at mom or dad, and then shakes their head' You cant go there' they say.

My kids wouldnt consult me.

So i have two theories. The first is, my boys are exhibiting totally normal behavior. The other kids are strange-scared of parents, never see their parents so grateful to be with them, have strict nanny during the week.

But even at attachment parenting gatherings, the kids all seem so well behaved. By that i mean, many of the parents are stay at home moms. They dont use nannies much (some do)

My next theory- im a single mother, so i dont have the benefit of a deep voice and scary large physique-ie, the testosterone factor-that helps keep other children in line. I know that many gentle disciplining mothers, have husbands that dont agree with this philosophy.

I live in as rich neighbourhood in manhattan, and children for the most part, are well dressed and well behaved. They are mostly in daycare or with a nanny during the week.

I dont know....its really hard....


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

What are you teaching them about behavior in public? Do you help to set them up for success by explaining what is expected? Do you follow through on consequences for disruptive behavior? Are they bothering other worshippers? Why do you let them go places they shouldn't-do you mean trespassing or rooms that are closed off to the general public?

I admit I am leery of consensual living as a philosophy. It seems great in theory but leaves a lot to be desired in practice. But we all travel our own path.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Because you don't get up and enforce boundaries and consequences. Consensual living isn't really functional with small children. They both need and want to know that someone, not them, is in charge. The world is big and scary and firm boundaries are useful and reassuring.


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## terra-pip (Aug 30, 2008)

I have wondered the same thing about my kids. My two boys 7 and 3 just seem insane in public and at other peoples houses---sometimes at home too. Not always but a good part of the time. I am trying to be a good mom in the attatchment/consensual living sort of realm, and yet I see other families living the same way with kids who listen to their parents and then I see kids who I know live in a more mainstream home/discipline style (spanking, daycare, shuttled to babysitters or gparents, publkic schooled, TV all day etc) and they are seem to be calm and good listeners too.

Sometimes I think there's some magic formula to get kids to behave and act the right way without crushing their spirit that I jsut haven't learned.

I'd like to know exactly what to do at times.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I agree with oaktreemama. There have to be consequences of actions otherwise a child can't understand that there is cause and effect. We are AP parents, me a SAHM, dh a rather large guy, but also an AP parent. I'm not sure what to say other than even children have to learn that respect flows in two directions.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I'm not a consensual-living fan, either. Not that I think that the philosophy doesn't have something to offer-- it does. But I think all too often it degenerates into parents being too uncertain of their right to assert themselves as strong leaders. That's not to say I'm all into punishments or bribes, either. There's a whole big area in between; not being totally consensual doesn't mean that kids have to be scared of you. My children are not scared of me, or intimidated by me. Nor are they afraid of my husband. But I lead confidently, and with the assurance that I have the right to set expectations, and they respond.

I have very high expectations for public behavior. I talk to my kids ahead of time about exactly what they may or may not do-- in detail. If they cross those boundaries, I'll pull them aside, somewhere private, and talk to them about it-- remind them of the boundary. I bring them close to me, make strong eye contact, and make a clear statement about what's expected. If they cross it again, we leave the situation to take a time-out together-- the whole family together, if necessary (I have three small children.)

If we're at church, or in somebody's home, we'll go sit in a quiet corner or outside. If we're someplace where we can't find a quiet corner, we'll sit out in the car-- I'll buckle them into the car and we sit for five minutes and talk about what happened. I talk to them about how their behavior affected me and affected others. I'll ask them to talk to me about how they ought to have behaved. Then we'll go in and try again. If I've reached a point where this approach has crossed my patience too much, or I fail to get their attention even when we take our time-out together, then we go home for the day, and everybody spends some quiet time on their beds when we get home. If necessary, I will bodily carry them out of a situation.

Honestly, I don't have to do that very often. If you're consistent, and calm, and very firm about it, it only takes a few times for them to understand that you mean what you say. After that, a look can work wonders-- it communicates to the child that this sequence is going to start (reminder, timeout, trip home) if the behavior doesn't immediately change.

It helps that this is our approach to behavior at home, too. We talk in detail about expectations, and the reasons for them. I insist that they be able to describe for me what's expected-- for a very small child, it might be as simple as, "I sit, no run." Then I remind them once of the expectation, and then if they cross the boundary we've discussed, we take a discussion break in a neutral location. When that isn't working, we call a general halt in the day's activities, and everybody (me included) takes fifteen minutes on their beds. Then we regroup again, and discuss the expectations again, and then we try again.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

It goes without saying that i do pull them aside and explain they cannot do this or that. But then they go back and do it. Consequences? Like what, timeout? withdrawl of privileges? spanking? I dont know....i always talk to them about the behaviour that bothers me,and explain why.

Of course i do not take them to adult services, my kids? No, we are talking about children's services, and 'child friendly' places.

One place that they were not allowed to go was a playground. for liability reasons. Of course 5yo listened, but it was hard to convince 2yo.

Terrapip, thanks for the commiseration.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic*
> 
> Because you don't get up and enforce boundaries and consequences. Consensual living isn't really functional with small children. They both need and want to know that someone, not them, is in charge. The world is big and scary and firm boundaries are useful and reassuring.


A lot of that. We are a pretty consensual home, but with the understanding that young children haven't yet learned appropriate social behaviours. We still guide them and make sure they understand where we are going and what is expected and that if they can't behave properly we won't stay.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> My next theory- im a single mother, so i dont have the benefit of a deep voice and scary large physique-ie, the testosterone factor-that helps keep other children in line. I know that many gentle disciplining mothers, have husbands that dont agree with this philosophy.


We have a same-sex parents household with two men, and I don't think anyone would describe either DH or me as "a deep voice and scary large physique-ie". We are both taller than average, but not scary large or all that deep in the voice. And we are both in on the parenting philosophy we follow.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

A couple of weeks ago we were at the library and my son started screaming for joy at a book. I reminded him we have to use our indoor voice at the library and if he couldn't we would have to leave. He couldn't stop the screaming so we left. There was no drama (well a bit at the car when he realized we really were leaving) and I wasn't angry or punitive. Just matter of fact. If we can't control ourselves at the library or wherever, then we have to leave.

We have been back twice and he reminded me last time that Mamas have to use their inside voices too.

Having consequences and expectations for behavior-especially in public settings- is not punitive or shaming or crushing a child's spirit. In fact I think the opposite. Children want to be included in our lives and helping them learn how to act in situations makes that possible. I expect much different behavior at the playground than at the library and my son is learning how to navigate those different settings with aplomb.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> It goes without saying that i do pull them aside and explain they cannot do this or that. But then they go back and do it. Consequences? Like what, timeout? withdrawl of privileges? spanking? I dont know....i always talk to them about the behaviour that bothers me,and explain why.
> 
> ...


Natural consequences. The natural consequence of not being able to behave properly on their own is to not be allowed to be on their own, they have to stay close to mom. As for the two year old, you also can't expect much in the way of self control. A 2 year old may understand "We can't go in the playground" for what it means, but when the 2 year old sees the playground they only think "PLAYGROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Having consequences and expectations for behavior-especially in public settings- is not punitive or shaming or crushing a child's spirit. In fact I think the opposite. Children want to be included in our lives and helping them learn how to act in situations makes that possible. I expect much different behavior at the playground than at the library and my son is learning how to navigate those different settings with aplomb.


I think that sums it up. And really, if an adult were to start shrieking for joy in the library they would be told to leave and if they didn't the police would be called and they would be charged with trespassing.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I do appreciate the replies, but its sounds like the assumption is that i just let my kids disrupt everyone. I am a polite person, so i do not allow this, and i take them out. It is very very very very exhausting for me. I am trying to figure out why other parents just sit there, and so do their kids (most of them), while mine donT. Admittedly, my 5yo is usually ok, not always. He has matured a bit and maturity plays into this. But he can still act goofy while his peers wouldnt dare.

As for keeping my 2yo near me, you havent seen my 2yo. He is not your average clingy toddler. He is fearless, and runs off. It wouldnt matter how many times i grabbed him and kept him by my side. He would go off again. As long as i think he's safe, i cut him some slack. When it came to the playground, he repeatedly snuck back out again. He wouldnt take no for an answer. My 5yo was less interested, being 5, and found a pillar he could run around (that he wasnt supposed to) He found another 5yo friend to do the same. I let him because i couldnt see the harm, and was busy with 2yo.

Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.


My son is 22mo, but he's not clingy either. He's COMPLETELY fearless. The consequence for not listening? Going in the stroller. If he doesn't stay close, he has to go in the stroller. If its safe for him to be out of the stroller and running around (a fenced in playground where I can guard the exits, or keep near him by playing with him) then he gets to run around. We talk about how he needs to be near me, and he's getting better at it - but only b/c there's a consequence.

And, I'm a single mom so there isn't any testosterone in my house either. My son is not afraid of me, he just knows that there are expectations, and consequences when he doesn't follow them.

I really didn't like the tone of your OP actually, it sounds as though you think children only listen b/c of fear, and b/c parents are "big and mean and scary" - thats just not true. Yes, some toddlers stick close to their parents b/c they're not very social, or for whatever reason, but thats not necessarily b/c they're scared of what mom and dad will do to them if they don't stick close by. FWIW, my ex DOES believe in GD, and doesn't spank or use corporal punishment (he's much better at playful parenting than I am - its incredible actually). I've NEVER seen my ex use the "testosterone" tactic to scare our ds into doing anything - he's very good at getting down on his level and playfully re-directing or getting him to clean up, or whatever.

Kid's are frustrating, and while consensual living sounds really great, it would never work for me.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

One thing I want to mention is that your impression of your own kids vs. others' kids may be a bit off. I say this because I have a 21-month old who I feel like is 'all over the place', 'never listens', 'inappropriate' (i.e. not sharing, too loud, getting aggressive) etc. yet everyone is always commenting on how good he is. I'm like... uh did you NOT see me just chasing him? I think it comes down to me being very shy & inhibited so I'm hyper-conscious of the things he's doing & feel like it draws a lot of attention to us... but apparently no one really notices. Kids are kids & people understand that. It always seems like other kids (at church etc.) are so calm & well-behaved UNTIL I observe them more carefully. Am I making sense? I have no idea if this is the case in your situation or if your kids really are as wild as you think, but just wanted to point out the possibility!

It sounds too like your kids need a distraction, something to focus on. I know a lot of parents bring toys & books & snacks to keep their kids calm & quiet during religious services. I'm not a big fan of that, I feel that it detracts from our worship, but I do keep DS close or in arms & whisper to him about what's going on, try to engage him, quietly ask him what he wants to pray about, etc. Our church also usually has a kids' thing for 20 minutes or so, all the kids go downstairs and do more child-friendly readings, songs, sometimes a craft... DH goes down there with DS since he's really too young to follow directions etc. on his own. But that helps a ton, having a VERY kid-centered activity to break up an hour-long service. I've never been to a synagogue so I don't know what it's like though.


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## Holland73 (Jan 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> And, I'm a single mom so there isn't any testosterone in my house either. My son is not afraid of me, he just knows that there are expectations, and consequences when he doesn't follow them.










I am also a solo mama and have been since ds was 2 months. There is NO testosterone in my household and my ds is age-appropriately well-behaved, but I have also been very clear with him about the expectations and consequences of his actions in numerous environments. I have also explained, age dependent, why we have such expectations and ask him how he would feel if someone did it to him or his belongings/environment.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't really have any idea what's going on. But, I wanted to address the "Children are afraid of parents" theory. I was a single mom to an active, bright daughter. I don't believe in punishments, and believe in thinking of her actual needs first. However, she would have never gone somewhere she didn't belong without hesitating and consulting me first. She could have attended a children's service without being disruptive (unless it was mind numbingly boring).

Obviously we had our occasional issues, but for the most part, even at a very young age, she could be in a social situation without being disruptive. She was not afraid of me in any way. SHe did respect me, and trusted my judgement, and did as I said because she trusted me. But, she was never fearful of what I would do if she didn't obey me.

I have a daycare in my home. I have six kids all under the age of three years old. I can take them all to the library, or story time, or a wee kids class, and never have a problem with any of them. They also are not afraid of me or their parents. They trust us to guide them without any fear of penalty.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

It sounds like your kids do what many kids naturally do. The difference is in parental response to those things.

My kids are not naturally restrained either. At home they bounce off the walls, and I usually let them, or just toss them out in the backyard to run off that energy. But they will sit through a service (or stay with me in a store, or listen to the limitations I give at a park). They will do this because immediate consequences will ensue otherwise and I am very consistent with it. I had a runner for a while (he'd get out of the car and take off, usually in busy parking lots). There was no explaining to him, and the truly natural consequence (getting hit by a car) wasn't something I was willing to let him experience. So for a while he had no choice but to be the last one out of the car, and have me holding his hand all the way through the lot. He didn't like that. He had to put up with it until he demonstrated to me that he was not going to run away from me.

I am with my kids all the time. They are not scared of me. We love each other. But they are children and I'm their mother, and I'm definitely not of the CL mindset. The restrictions are primarily for their safety, and secondarily for them to practice functioning in a society where we can't always do what we feel like doing at the moment we feel like doing it. I think if you want your children to behave differently, you will probably need to respond differently to their behavior. But if you are not willing to lay down restrictions or institute consequences, then you will need to accept that this is going to be the norm for your kids, at least at their young ages. If you believe that your parenting method is a good and healthy one, then it really doesn't matter what results everyone else is getting from different methods, does it? Your parenting is for the benefit of your children, and if you believe that what you do is beneficial, and that their behavior is normal and healthy and acceptable, then comparing them to other children isn't going to help you or your children.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Also decidedly not a consensual living fan here (at least, not for under 7 or 8ish--I'm starting to do it more naturally with DD who is turning 9 in two months, but just recently).

However, I think kids that age do want to run wild and free and will disrupt naturally, consensual living or not, because they don't have the experience or history of learning to read/interpret/respond to social cues. Five year olds being silly during the children's time at a service are par for the course in every place of worship I've been to (it often gets a chuckle and delights the worshipers too). HOWEVER--allowing the kids to violate rules on where they're supposed to be and disrupting the rest of the service (you did say they "always" interrupt, which I doubt that you meant literally, I'm just guessing that they tend to be disruptive at very inappropirate, noticeable times)--that is going to have social sanctions both for you and your kids (other parents are not going to allow their children to play with yours, especially since parents tend to blame other people when their child "acts up"--so even if their child had always thought about dancing upon the altar or whatever, they're going to assume that it's your "bad" kid that taught their precious angel to do that, ect.).

I think that you might also want to rethink how you form your consensus. It doesn't sound to me like your boys are much interested in intellectual discussion blah blah blah as a means of learning about expectations and rules (maybe this is why they ignore what you say, esp. in exciting situations?). This is absolutely not a deficit on your boys' part--I think MOST young children, male or female, don't really operate that way. That's where a reminder of expectation and then *action* come in handy. If your boys learn by doing and moving, then as annoying as it may be, you're going to have to meet them there. It is absolutely not punitive, if your toddler refuses to not go where he's not supposed to, for you to collect your kids and go home and do something very uninteresting for awhile. It's not punitive to get up and take them for a walk. It's meeting their expressed needs to run around and not be in that place. If your synagoge has no concurrent children's programs with the service that your children want to participate in, then they simply may not be ready to go there yet. Maybe you can enlist the help of some trusted people in your faith community to tag team with you (take them outside, take them for a walk) so that you can worship every now and then (because that is important care for YOU!). My most difficult child learns kinetically. (She's my DD, BTW, both my boys are much more verbally processing) I couldn't just tell her not to do something, or how it pissed me off--I had to physically guide her either away from what I didn't want her to do, as a reminder, ect. And I had to accept that until she matured a bit, there were just some things that I couldn't do with her and not be stressed out, so I gave her some time and looked for a worship community that met her active needs better.

Have you talked to the leadership about this? You know, maybe they truly DON'T care about little ones running around, or are willing to tolerate it in the 2 year old or whatever. It doesn't sound like anyone has come up to talk to you about it yet directly (I know that doesn't mean anything necessarily) and I'm sure you are far from the only person who has ever had to deal with that problem. Your rabbi (?) may be able to actually reassure you that your community loves you and your kids, maybe he or she would also be a good person to bounce some ideas off of, as far as how to handle behavior during the service. Or if not that person, are the other people that you admire/trust?


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> So i have two theories. The first is, my boys are exhibiting totally normal behavior. The other kids are strange-scared of parents, never see their parents so grateful to be with them, have strict nanny during the week....
> 
> My next theory- im a single mother, so i dont have the benefit of a deep voice and scary large physique-ie, the testosterone factor-that helps keep other children in line. I know that many gentle disciplining mothers, have husbands that dont agree with this philosophy.


I think you need to look beyond your two theories. My daughter (and many of my friends' children) are quite polite in public, know their boundaries, "check in" with their parent to see if an activity is okay... I can promise you that my daughter is not scared of me in any way, is told every day in word and action how glad we are that she is our girl, and does not have a nanny, strict or otherwise. Nor do we rely on a "big testosterone" scare tactic to keep our child in line. (My husband would die laughing at the idea).

We do have boundaries and stick to them, and consequences when those boundaries are pushed or breached. We do not have punishments in our family so much as immediate and logical consequences. Sure, my daughter has tried throwing hissy-fits in a public restaurant. It didn't take long for her to grasp (even at the age of 2.5-3 years old) that poor behavior meant that we would pay up and leave immediately. Likewise, if she behaves inappropriately in a public place she might need to come sit on a lap and be supervised. We give her time to try to get her body and mind back under control. If I need to take her out to give her a chance to pull herself together than we try that. When things escalate beyond appropriate behavior, and if she can't get it under control, we leave.

I am simplifying, of course. There were months on end when we wanted to tear our hair out, I'm sure. But consistency is key, as are consequences handed out with an even temper. My daughter is by no means perfect, but we do get glowing comments from many people on her behavior, and have since she was a toddler. And she is a bight, happy girl who is confident of her place in the family, knows that she is cherished and loved, and never doubts our love, even if she is in trouble!


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> Consequences? Like what, timeout? withdrawl of privileges? spanking? I dont know....i always talk to them about the behaviour that bothers me,and explain why.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Llyra*
> 
> this sequence is going to start (reminder, timeout, trip home) if the behavior doesn't immediately change.


I believe she means this. For my younger child, who was a runner, it does work to put him in the stroller, strapped in, if he doesn't walk next to me holding my hand. And I have done the "bail on the trip" thing, which while it sucks, it doesn't generally have to be done more than a few times before they know you're serious about it. It's not consensual living though. I do like the idea of natural or logical consequences for things.


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## Harper (Jul 10, 2003)

Quote:


> I really didn't like the tone of your OP actually, it sounds as though you think children only listen b/c of fear, and b/c parents are "big and mean and scary" - thats just not true. Yes, some toddlers stick close to their parents b/c they're not very social, or for whatever reason, but thats not necessarily b/c they're scared of what mom and dad will do to them if they don't stick close by. FWIW, my ex DOES believe in GD, and doesn't spank or use corporal punishment (he's much better at playful parenting than I am - its incredible actually). I've NEVER seen my ex use the "testosterone" tactic to scare our ds into doing anything - he's very good at getting down on his level and playfully re-directing or getting him to clean up, or whatever.


I felt similarly. I also objected to the idea that kids behave because they don't see their parents and have a strict nanny. As a WOHM, I don't think that my kids behave because they miss me so much. And I have been very careful about who cares for them and how when my dh and I were both working. Now that my dh is a SAHD, they are still well behaved and there isn't a chance that they are scared of my dh. He's a kitten.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> The restrictions are primarily for their safety, and secondarily for them to practice functioning in a society where we can't always do what we feel like doing at the moment we feel like doing it. I think if you want your children to behave differently, you will probably need to respond differently to their behavior. But if you are not willing to lay down restrictions or institute consequences, then you will need to accept that this is going to be the norm for your kids, at least at their young ages. If you believe that your parenting method is a good and healthy one, then it really doesn't matter what results everyone else is getting from different methods, does it? Your parenting is for the benefit of your children, and if you believe that what you do is beneficial, and that their behavior is normal and healthy and acceptable, then comparing them to other children isn't going to help you or your children.


Agreed. Safety first. Then functioning in society. It's easier now with my older dd to explain that when I want her to do something--like eat with a fork for example--my role is to guide her into being able to function out in the world in a way that's exceptable. I'm not trying to conform her in any way, just trying to lay the ground work about being polite. She doesn't always like it but I think she understands it.

I also think you probably need to cut yourself some slack. I do think that boys can be totally different creatures. It amazes me how much some boys are just wired to bounce off the walls. Others not so much but some of them, it's just in their genes! And although I think you can guide a two year old, I have yet to meet one that actually "behaves." I remember telling a friend once that they could avoid a lot of headaches if they just tried to avoid any situation with their little kids where there was an opportunity for "misbehaving." I think being near a playground and not being allowed to go on it is one of those times--especially for a rambunctious 2 year old boy. It's too much to expect that he wouldn't want to go there. So instead of putting him in a untenable situation and then getting frustrated when he isn't acting like you want him to, just avoid the situation in the first place. Another example: I remember someone complaining that every time that they folded the laundry, their two year old would pull over the pile. I just think putting a folded pile of laundry within the reach of a two year old is asking for trouble--setting them up to do something that is going to make you angry. So you might want to lower your expectations on what you can expect from YOUR two year old. Great that other people have ones that aren't as active as yours but you need to do what is right for you and your son.

Good luck. And I agree with what everyone said about having very consistent consequences if the behavior is unsafe or unacceptable. It sounds like you have tried that but if it's not working, then you need to rethink what you are expecting from them.


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## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> It goes without saying that i do pull them aside and explain they cannot do this or that. But then they go back and do it. Consequences? Like what, timeout? withdrawl of privileges? spanking? I dont know....i always talk to them about the behaviour that bothers me,and explain why.
> 
> ...


It doesn't sound like talking to them is working and if you allow them to go back to the behaviors again they are not learning any sort of limits. My daughter was well behaved in public and at home from a very young age (with some exceptions of course because all kids act out sometimes) and it wasn't because she was afraid of me. I think you may need to be open to new ways of thinking about how people get children to behave in public. If you consistently enforce limits in a gentle way (making them sit by you, removing them from the situation, etc) they will most likely start to figure out that you mean business. I am not saying this is easy to do, of course, but it can be done and it can be done in a gentle way.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harper*
> 
> I felt similarly. I also objected to the idea that kids behave because they don't see their parents and have a strict nanny. As a WOHM, I don't think that my kids behave because they miss me so much. And I have been very careful about who cares for them and how when my dh and I were both working. Now that my dh is a SAHD, they are still well behaved and there isn't a chance that they are scared of my dh. He's a kitten.


Just to add to this - my ds is in daycare all day while I go to school. He is very well behaved at "school", but acts up with me much more - I think he acts up b/c he wants my attention more than behaves b/c he wants my attention. He's a very social child, and very well aware (for his age anyway) about how people react to him, so he's always pretty well behaved outside the house. The exceptions are when he's tired, hungry, bored, or in a cranky mood for some reason. With me he behaves much WORSE than he behaves for anyone else though. It's insane.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I have 2 boys 5 and 2. I dont believe in punishments, timeouts etc. I aspire to living consensually with my children, altho its not always possible. I look for their needs first to explain their behaviour when it irks me.


Honestly? That says it all. If you don't/won't impose limits, then the children will not learn them. And yes, there are situations that require some setting of limits - like going to Temple. If nothing else, such behavior is disruptive to the rest of the community. Those who are there for a specific purpose which your children are disturbing.

Being a single Mom is a cop-out. I'm sorry. Develop "the look" that many mothers have. It more than replaces the deep voice and testosterone.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I do appreciate the replies, but its sounds like the assumption is that i just let my kids disrupt everyone. I am a polite person, so i do not allow this, and i take them out. It is very very very very exhausting for me. I am trying to figure out why other parents just sit there, and so do their kids (most of them), while mine donT. Admittedly, my 5yo is usually ok, not always. He has matured a bit and maturity plays into this. But he can still act goofy while his peers wouldnt dare.
> 
> ...


My kids stayed by me in Church because I made it clear to them that that was the expectation. They were not going to run around and disrupt everyone else. And if they wouldn't do so? We WOULD leave, but they wouldn't be having happy, happy fun time after. They would know I was disappointed in their behavior.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Just to add to this - my ds is in daycare all day while I go to school. He is very well behaved at "school", but acts up with me much more - I think he acts up b/c he wants my attention more than behaves b/c he wants my attention. He's a very social child, and very well aware (for his age anyway) about how people react to him, so he's always pretty well behaved outside the house. The exceptions are when he's tired, hungry, bored, or in a cranky mood for some reason. With me he behaves much WORSE than he behaves for anyone else though. It's insane.


It's also very likely that he needs to unleash his bad side. He's been well behaved all day, and he's ready to cut loose a little, and it's usually the parents that they do this with. I have some kids who go crazy as soon as mom walks in... others wait til Mom or dad is making dinner at home, and then get on a roll. Sometimes we just need to get it out. I have parents who are exhausted by morning with a misbehaving child, and the kids walk in and act like they are perfect angels. So, I always get the good behavior, parents always get the bad behavior.... But, I didn't teach most of them limits or how to behave appropriately. The parents teach it. I just get to benefit from it.

A few, I have to work much harder with... but, not very often.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> When it came to the playground, he repeatedly snuck back out again. He wouldnt take no for an answer.


Then, it was time to leave. He was getting a clear message that he could play in the playground, as long as he snuck out.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

There are a couple of kids similar to what you describe at our synagogue. Let me tell you what it looks like from the perspective of one of those "other parents."

What I see is children acting out constantly. Interrupting, running around, shouting. The typical parental reaction is to say nicely, "Oh honey, please don't do that. Sweetie? Can you be a little quieter, please? Baby, I need you to stop that." All said in a very ineffectual, half-hearted tone. Meanwhile, the kid, who knows full well that what his mother is saying translates to "lalalalalala" simply carries on climbing the Sukkah pole, swinging from the stair rail, or whatever. The mother eventually gives up and lets him be, with a helpless, exhausted look around at the other parents.

Not once have I seen her say firmly to one of these children: "Kid, stop right now. If you can't stop, we're leaving." And then leave. Or physically remove him from whatever he's doing. These actions don't have to be done punitively or cruelly. But kids need limits. If they don't have them, they're going to keep on testing just how far they can go.

The other kids are fully aware of the situation and talk about these kids. "How come their mother lets them do that?" they ask. Because they understand that neither their father nor I would allow that sort of behavior in public, even though our boys are as rambunctious as any. They have been taught what's appropriate and what isn't. It doesn't sound, OP, as if you have done this. Not in a way your children have understood. Which, in my mind, has done them a major disservice.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i don't think posting some sort of limit/expectation on a child is unfair. i mean even adults have things they can and can not do. it wouldn't be fair or nice of me to show up at church and run around and be loud. i would be asked to leave. or i can't just go into some building or on to someones land just because i want too. i mean heck i could be shot if i went messing around on someone's land. lol

so even if you do consensual living there are boundaries that all people must respect and live with in. so what is wrong with teaching that to your kids? even if it means you leave the place because they can't seem to get it under control.

i don't think expecting a 2 and 5 year old to have the life experience and knowledge to deal with the big world is always the right thing to do. you have, i am gonna guess, decades on them of how to behave socially and what is expected of you in certian situations. it is your job to help guide them (not beat them, not shame them, scare them etc... but GUIDE them) in how to be around others and how to be in a community. that is why we have parents otherwise we could just pop the baby out and let them at it. even animals spend time rearing their children. showing them how to be in the society they live in.

BUT if you want to continue on the path you are on, then you must except that different children act different ways and different families raise children differently. i am a SAHM and i try to be very gentle and loving with my children. so does my DH. he isn't some big scary guy that does around swinging a belt and yelling. depending on which child it is (i have 5) some have been more out going and others have been more clingy and close at younger ages. it just depends. and i have one dd and 4 boys. go figure.

if you want to see some changes then maybe you will have to do more then talk. i mean 2 is more of an action age, talking is boring and they don't focus well, you gotta expect that he MIGHT get 2 minutes of what you are saying, probably less. so if you don't want him doing something you gotta get up and stop it and then if it continues you might have to leave the situation.

i don't have alot of issues with kids being all over the place (as i do have 5) but if i say "this space is off limits" i do expect them to respect that. just as we practice respecting their space. it is ok to expect that.

h


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't do punishments, so I wouldn't do time outs, but I don't do CL either. If a kid of mine is disturbing people, I make that kid sit next to me, or we go outside or to the lobby until they're able to handle sitting still. Toddlers who run around places where running can't happen are carried. Older children who run around places where they can't hold my hand. You just have to physically make what needs to happen happen. You don't have to punish over it. "It looks like you're having trouble being quiet. Let's go outside for a minute so we don't disturb people." "This isn't a place we can run around. Let's hold hands." Being quiet and sitting still takes practice, and they might need to hold your hand and sit quietly or be held for a while before they can do it on their own.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

We have four children (3, 5, 7, 10) who are exceptionally well-behaved. Often, when we take them out in public, people stop us to comment on how polite they are.

Part of the reason for that is that we are clear with them on what our expectations are and we've always tried to be consistant about teaching and reinforcing what we want them to do.

Quote:


> Develop "the look" that many mothers have. It more than replaces the deep voice and testosterone.


Yup. Because my children know what sort of behavior is socially acceptable, when they start to act up a little bit in public I can look at them the right way and it stops.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


> it communicates to the child that this sequence is going to start (reminder, timeout, trip home) if the behavior doesn't immediately change.


FWIW, what I refer to as a timeout is not a punitive action. There's no "you're gonna sit there for five minutes Buddy and I'm going to ignore you" kind of timeouts in my family. What we call a timeout is a situation in which the children and I sit down together. The littlest ones often sit on my lap, even. If they're upset, I wait until they've calmed down, and then I ask them a series of questions: what happened? how do you feel about it? how did the other people feel, if other people were involved? what do you think we can do to put it right? And we talk about it until we achieve agreement about what the right course of action is. But nobody gets up until everybody involved agrees that the discussion is over.

To me, this is more about constructive talk-based problem-solving, and an education in how to consider other people as well as yourself, and practice in controlling impulses. Not punishment at all. I hate the idea that timeouts have to be a punishment.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I think what it boils down to is that your kids aren't behaving the way you want them to because you never taught them how to behave. I have found that laying our clear expectations and talking beforehand helps a lot. You need to set limits and boundries and then enforce them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Llyra*
> 
> FWIW, what I refer to as a timeout is not a punitive action. There's no "you're gonna sit there for five minutes Buddy and I'm going to ignore you" kind of timeouts in my family. What we call a timeout is a situation in which the children and I sit down together. The littlest ones often sit on my lap, even. If they're upset, I wait until they've calmed down, and then I ask them a series of questions: what happened? how do you feel about it? how did the other people feel, if other people were involved? what do you think we can do to put it right? And we talk about it until we achieve agreement about what the right course of action is. But nobody gets up until everybody involved agrees that the discussion is over.
> 
> To me, this is more about constructive talk-based problem-solving, and an education in how to consider other people as well as yourself, and practice in controlling impulses. Not punishment at all. I hate the idea that timeouts have to be a punishment.


I refer to these as time ins, not timeouts.

We do sometimes "banish" a child, especially ds2, but it's not framed as a punishment. It's more of a "you need to calm down, and can't seem to do that here" or a "you're being very disruptive, and if you want to jump up and down and scream, you're going to have to do it somewhere else" thing.


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

My boys seem like the type yours are - always on the go, have to try out every corner of the room, trying sneak off and do the thing they're not allowed to do. I believe some kids really just are more of a handful! My younger is the mellower one, but the two of them together can be trying... Like you, I have seen more self-control and awareness of the rules after ds turned 5 or so - now he just turned 6 and keeps being more grown-up about things. And at 3.75 my younger son still tests a lot but is learning.

I think it's necesssary to go through the rigamarole of actually leaving somewhere when he's acting up, or bringing a stroller to put him in at times, to show that you are serious about the rules. At 2yo I wouldn't expect much. It's nice to give him the freedom at services to roam, but if he's disturbing people or repeating a behavior that's not ok, then it's time to scoop him up or hold his hand and lead him out. Maybe when you get to the children's service, you should stay right with your 2yo, have him sit on your lap, or hold his hand, and be his buddy a little at first. Talk him through what he could do there (hm, we can't go out that door, since we're supposed to stay in this room, but let's try that book corner.... etc.) And for the 2yo - bring snacks, little activities to do, maybe even a quick opportunity to play at a playground before services?

I do think there are many many grey areas between totally consensual living and scary authoritarian parenting. And it's totally okay to decide that you need to move ever so slightly into taking on more authority. Another thought - If your time at shul is one of the only times you get a "break" from kids, then they may be sensing that and you may be putting out a vibe that you hope they will just go off and be fine and leave you alone a bit. Just a theory, and I don't necessarily know the remedy for that.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.


DS isn't clingy, but I manage to keep him near. As a PP mentioned, he has options, stay close on his own, wear the harness or sit on my lap/in a stroller. I can't afford to have him off and running no matter how fearless he is, because once he's more than 4 feet or so away from I literally cannot see him. He doesn't have to stay that close, but he does have to stay where I can pick his voice out of the crowd easily and tell when another adult approaches him for no reason.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Oh, we do that too, sometimes. Somehow it doesn't come off as punishment, though. It just doesn't feel that way. I've tried punitive timeouts, a few times, rather unsuccessfully, since they didn't work at all, and they just felt different-- more like a power struggle, ya know? When we "banish," it's usually because it's clear that everybody involved has had enough of the situation, and needs a break, and there's not this feeling of resentment that comes with punishment. I'm regularly saying to them, "if you can't stop running and shouting, then GET OUT OF MY KITCHEN." I say it sharply, even, and they take it with good humor-- they know they're driving me nuts, and they know they've pushed me too far, and they say okay and get out of the kitchen pretty readily.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Can someone explain to me what consensual living actually is? I have heard it often on here and don't quite have a grasp on the philosophy.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The idea of consensual living is that you don't do anything to your children that they don't consent to, so you wouldn't simply stop them from running because obviously they want to run. You'd try to find a mutually agreeable solution, so something that made you happy and the child happy. I find the philosophy interesting, but I don't find it to be practical. For instance, in this situation, there are some places where it's simply inappropriate to run and disturb others, such as during a religious service, and it's my job as the mom to stop it. I don't have to then punish for it, but I do feel it is my job to simply respect other people and make something inappropriate and disruptive stop.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Just wanted to put in again, esp. for the OP, that having to set a few more parent guidelines now does NOT mean that you have ruined your chances for a CL environment in other areas or in time! I think, barring major problems like substance abuse or criminal activity, CL is ideal for older kids through the teen years. The kids have more of a foundation to understand the multiple consequences of any given action--they have more things in their toolkit (hopefully taught by you as well as experience) to figure out compromises they can be happy with, ect.

So please don't think, if you occasionally remove your kids even though they say they don't want you do, or if you enforce the rules about where they can go at your place of worship, that you have ruined them forever as far as CL--that's simply not true. I have seen it stated elsewhere and here before that some people think that if you don't do 100 percent CL right from the start, it's like you've ruined your chances. That is simply not so. With kids with certain personalities, modifying in the early years to something that is more safe and instructive for the kids can give you energy and a framework where you have a better chance of success with CL in the long run. If I had stuck to my original must-do plan with DD, we'd have never gotten there and I'd have done her a major disservice. I clung to it a little too long, which meant a huge amout of work later--but even after that, we are able to move back towards it and I'm very much enjoying it years later.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I havent read all of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and especially those with experience of consesual living.

My kids probably are a little more daring than others, because they havent learned fear. This isnt a criticism of other people, or of anyone on this board, so please dont take it as such. On top of that, they probably have personality types that make disruptive bahviour more likely, but they are great in a playground. Being boys, also makes this more likely. (girls can be like this too, but from what i have observed, its less common)

I also think there is the fact that i dont have an overpowering personality. Some people are just more commanding, and it takes less effort for them to make others do what they want. Those people as parents, will experience less of what i am experiencing...thats just a theory, i dont know.

In some situations, its hugely impractical to 'leave'. But I certainly take any child of mine out of the room if they are disruptive. Its not like it just sit there and let them do what they are doing.I also get close to them and explain that behaviour is not ok, and that its important to be considerate of others.

But...that isnt really enough.

At home, my kids are great. We never have bedtime issues, we eat at the table together. They are considerate within the expectations of their age, because i emphasise consideration of others in their upbringing. Compassion and sensitivity rate very highly on my list of values. That is why, i detest engaging power struggles that involve physical force, and bossy or even manipulative behaviour. (That doesnt mean i dont see it as necessary sometimes.)

I also think that some of these 'child friendly' places are not as child friendly they say. I did go to one place where there was total acceptance of child like behaviour. Toys were strewn at the feet of worshippers, and children played with them in the crowd as people prayed. There was a general din, but it didnt bother those worshippers. If a child was really over the top-yes, take them out, But guess what, it didnt happen. Not even my boys. It was nice to let them be themselves in a place of prayer.

Ive talked about this with friends IRL as well. Ive received advice that i should 'discipline' these kids, with a spank on the bottom (which they claimed wasnt hitting).

Ive received other advice, which i found more helpful-to read up on personality differences in children, and to speak in greater detail *before* the event about my expectations. Some people on this board have suggested this too, and i have done it, but maybe i will do it more.

Sigh...i think i may be stuck with this behaviour until they grow out of it, because i do believe its more a personality issue.

Just my thoughts for now....

You have to know that my 5yo is actually a very considerate kid, and ive always considered him to be nicer than his peers. 2yo is a 2yo....

I like my style parenting.

What would naomi aldort say about this do you think, anyone?


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

I think there has been some good advice given, and perhaps reading them through thoroughly might be helpful.

I just have some questions, what are you afraid of? Other people's perception's of your dc's behaviour? Their safety? That if they are not listening to you now, they will never listen to you when they are older?

Perhaps instead of comparing your boys to other children you should just meet their needs...playground than temple. A mini trampoline (with a handle) + fast music = great energy release! My dd needed this (not my ds, go figure!).

Peace,

Melanie


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sebandg'smama*
> Perhaps instead of comparing your boys to other children you should just meet their needs...playground than temple. A mini trampoline (with a handle) + fast music = great energy release! My dd needed this (not my ds, go figure!).


I agree with this. I guess I'm getting more confused with your posts, it sounds like you are pretty happy with the way your kids behave so I'm not sure what you were asking in your OP? I agree that many 'child-friendly' places aren't as child-friendly as I'd like... but I take 'child-friendly' to mean that it's a good place for children to learn how to act in public. So, to be honest, I'd be a bit appalled if I saw toys strewn all over the floor of our church & kids running around and talking. A child-friendly church service for me is one where children are welcome & occasional outbursts are expected, but kids are still expected to behave to the best of their ability & to start learning how to act during worship. Bonus points if there's a short children's program within the service that's more comprehensible to the young ones so they get some religious education...

I am a very quiet personality. I don't yell at DS to get him to behave, and I certainly don't try to instill any fear in him... DH is the same. He doesn't cooperate because he's afraid or because of the consequences we enforce... He cooperates because he knows what is expected of him, and we know when our expectations are unrealistic. When we go to church, for example, we talk to him beforehand about how he's expected to behave -- sitting quietly, praying, staying near us. At the same time, we know when the temptation to run around is too much for him, so we pick him up & distract him (talk about what's going on, point out the statues, etc.) I know when he hasn't slept well or didn't get to nurse beforehand that I may have to be more proactive to help him stay calm. Am I making sense?

I just can't shake the feeling of your posts, on the one hand it sounds like you wanted advice for encouraging positive behavior, but on the other it seems like you are already happy with your kids' behavior. It also sounds like you are judging the 'behaved' children as being fearful or having parents with strong personalities or parents that work out of the home -- which just doesn't hold true for many kids & most of us don't want to hear that our kids are only behaved because we are overpowering or fear-inducing, you know? So I think that's why the general tone of the thread has gone in this direction... I do think there was some good advice in here but maybe you aren't asking for advice???


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

just skimmed...

in this particular situation, i would like to be able to take my kids somewhere that is beneficial for them, without having to feel like im running a marathon and being judged by onlookers despite my best efforts...wondering what is the true cause behind this...the 'public' situation, 'crowd' situation seems to bring out ths behaviour...with rare exceptions, nobody here apparently ever experiences this...it would be nice to hear im not the only one but apparently i am...what do i want? I want answers that feel true. I havent even read most of the posts yet, so i cant comment in any detail


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

ps.of course i meet their needs, playground, trampoline, of course of course of course.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

...just read last 2 posts. No i dont judge other kids for being quiet, im just trying to figure it out.

As for the question-what am i afraid of? thats a good question, and i ask myself often. Im not afraid for long term consequences. I think my kids are in a good place for the most part, though we have our issues (this one for eg.) I really dont like the feeling of onlookers judging me (maybe thats in my head?), and maybe i should just ignore that. But since i value being considerate of others, well, i value it, and dont want to bother them. Im sure my kids' behaviour isnt so bad, that everyone is extremely bothered, but it draws attention to me and i dont like that....

For the most part, i would just like to understand why it is my kids(and occasionaly others) who behave this way, and not most of the others. Its easy to say that in lies in the method of discipline, but it could well be other factors. I'd like a solution, but maybe there isnt one, other than not going at all. I have considered getting a babysitter, while i go and pray with the adults. I give up my adult participation completely as the effective 'baby sitter' in a children's service.

I dont want to do that though, because i want my kids to benefit, and i can wait until they are older to go back to my way of life.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds like you are blessed with high spirited children!

I am glad your boys are getting their needs met in your desire to live consensually. I am just worried that you are not getting your needs met. It's ok to get a babysitter in order for you to pray with the adults, once in a while at least. True consensual living has EVERYONE'S needs taken into account.

Peace,

Melanie


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks Melanie and others.

Sometimes i think my new religion is parenting. Getting my needs met would be seeing my boys thrive in this religious community, knowing they were benefiting from the children's services, learning songs, learning prayers, playing with other kids, making friends, learning self confidence, being joyful, and me being there to witness it.

Me praying with the adults? I have my whole life for that, although i miss it.

But...i sometimes consider it, so as to avoid this situation.
Just a couple of things to say after reading the posts. First, there have been some good ideas, thanks for sharing.
2ndly, i dont necessarily think kids are behaving because they are afraid of their parents, its just an idea, i dont know.

3rdly, testosterone factor-im glad to hear from other single moms, ok, so its not the testosterone factor. Yay! It was just an idea. I love being a single mom, and would not use that as an excuse. Im just putting ideas out there. Btw, my dad was scary, because he was big. Men are really big to little kids. You can be scary without meaning to be.

Lastly, i define consensual living in the parenting context as not forcing children to do something because you are bigger and stronger but giving them the chance to say what they need. Finding a solution when there is a conflict, not just imposing your will. Not overpowering others, but finding a way to meet all needs, in effect, taking everyone's needs into account, consulting others on what should be done, finding solutions that meet all needs. Its perpetually looking for solutions really, rather than laying down hard and fast rules. 
(i suppose thats a rambly definition)


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> ...just read last 2 posts. No i dont judge other kids for being quiet, im just trying to figure it out.
> 
> ...


But I think what is happening in this thread is that people are saying that maybe consensual living is NOT working and that there are many, many, many ways to raise children gently and attached that involves other methods of discipline (and by discipline, I mean TEACHING, not punishment). I think there is a lot of great advice in this thread, if you'd take the time to read it instead of skim it. In my first post, I honestly didn't know what to say because I don't have a child like what you're describing yours to be but you seemed derisive about anything but consensual living. I would never think that "my" way is the best, but it works for us. We aren't consensual living, but dh and I are both GD parents, I'm a SAHM, we don't spank, yell, belittle, threaten or instill fear. Our methods have been logical consequences and it worked for us. That's what you need to find and it might help to go outside of the consensual living box. If a particular method was not working, I would have gladly entertained other GD forms of parenting. Perhaps your plan of action at this point is simply being more open-minded that other methods might work and taking the time to read what people have spent time posting to be helpful.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

OP, I can completely understand your discomfort with the suspicion that other parents are silently judging you. And I'm sorry to confirm your fears, but yes, they are judging you. I know I judge parents who don't appear to have taught their children appropriate public behavior or who aren't willing to impose consequences when it occurs (and, as others have stated repeatedly, "consequence" does not equal "punitive."). And I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this.

But as you said, you value being considerate to others, as decent people do. So I don't think you should ignore your desire not to have your kids bother other people in public. Instead, use it as the motivation to get some strategies in place with your kids so that they understand the boundaries wrt behavior in public. Start small. Practice at home.

I also think you are complicating this situation unnecessarily by continually speculating that your kids behave this way not because you have no disciplinary strategy in place, but because they are somehow different from other children whose public behavior is more acceptable. From everything you've said about your parenting style, it seems clear that these are kids who push the limits simply because they can. So I urge you not to conclude that there's no solution, but to get a system in place to solve the problem. For their sakes as much as yours (and everyone else's).


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Consequences?


If you can leave, leave.

If you do not want to leave--you feel it's too harsh--then "calming down in the car" is a good one. I have two girls that are just... well they do seem normal compared to the other kids I know, but from what I read on here, we run in wild circles, LOL! "You need to respect the rule. If you do not, we will have to go calm down." After they are in their seats for several minutes, I tell them that the next time, I will not waste my time in the car, that we need to go home.

My kids KNOW when I can implement consequences, and behave accordingly. It is amazing that their behavior is the worst in the post office, and library, like if I'm running a quick errand that has to get done.  They know I'm loathe to waste this ten minutes with a calm-down time or leaving and doing it another day, and holy smokes. It's like... I don't know.

But I can assure you that even with my husband gone most of the time, and that my kids aren't scared of me (though they dislike calming down... they like being on a high), they do obey in kids' events.

Some of the time. But the other times, you won't see us, because we will be gone. We just leave.

Except that once-a-week post office trip. Those are my kids, climbing while I run across the hall, signing a customs form with one hand and grabbing them with the other, muttering under my breath. Yeah.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I do appreciate the replies, but its sounds like the assumption is that i just let my kids disrupt everyone. I am a polite person, so i do not allow this, and i take them out. It is very very very very exhausting for me. I am trying to figure out why other parents just sit there, and so do their kids (most of them), while mine donT. Admittedly, my 5yo is usually ok, not always. He has matured a bit and maturity plays into this. But he can still act goofy while his peers wouldnt dare.
> 
> ...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

You talk about meeting everyone's needs. Have you considered the possibility that sometimes, kids need to know that someone is stronger than them, that there are firm limits, and that they will hit those limits? I appreciate kids' need to run around, but if they need to run around without limits, then perhaps those meetings aren't for them. What I suspect is that, like the other kids, they do want to know where the limits are, and that they are trying to get this need met by pushing the boundaries. And that crying and acting out are not necessarily them protesting violations of their rights, but part of the way they process what is going on, the new limits being imposed?

I know how it feels to try and be attached and have to carry a screaming kid to the car. Oh, do I ever know. It's embarrassing, it's not what I envisioned, it's undignified. But sometimes, there is really no other way that is respectful of the other people in the room, and ultimately, it has helped my daughter understand what's acceptable and what's not, and that has made her much happier in the long-run.

Quote:


> Lastly, i define consensual living in the parenting context as not forcing children to do something because you are bigger and stronger but giving them the chance to say what they need. Finding a solution when there is a conflict, not just imposing your will. Not overpowering others, but finding a way to meet all needs, in effect, taking everyone's needs into account, consulting others on what should be done, finding solutions that meet all needs. Its perpetually looking for solutions really, rather than laying down hard and fast rules.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> jwondering what is the true cause behind this...the 'public' situation, 'crowd' situation seems to bring out ths behaviour...with rare exceptions, nobody here apparently ever experiences this...it would be nice to hear im not the only one but apparently i am...


What makes you think you're the only one? I'm not religious and don't attend any place of worship, but I would definitely be taking my kids out if I did so. I've attended a few "iffy" events with kids in the past (weddings, funerals, etc.) and have had to leave a few times, because of unacceptable behaviour. I had to leave a movie theater with ds1 and my nephew once (it was a first theater movie for both of them, and it didn't go as well as my sister and I had hoped it would), because they were acting up. I think lots of kids will act up in public and/or crowds (for many reasons). At some point, it's time to leave. In a previous post, you specifically said that your two year old "repeatedly" snuck out (to the playground, I think?). There you go. If he keeps doing it, you can either keep chasing him (which is what it sounds like you're doing), or you can leave. It's up to you...but if you don't leave, and keep chasing him, then you are going to attract some attention (not even necessarily judgment...but you can't keep getting up and leaving and coming back without people noticing, yk?), and they aren't going to get the idea that what they're doing isn't acceptable.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> *For the most part, i would just like to understand why it is my kids(and occasionaly others) who behave this way, and not most of the others.* Its easy to say that in lies in the method of discipline, but it could well be other factors. I'd like a solution, but maybe there isnt one, other than not going at all. I have considered getting a babysitter, while i go and pray with the adults. I give up my adult participation completely as the effective 'baby sitter' in a children's service.


 If it gives you comfort, we have all been there (see bolded part). Sometimes a parent can feel extremely alone in a situation where his/her child is acting out and everyone else's kids seem to be doing fine. I have had a tough time with this myself. Not in a religious setting, but in other public situations (think meltdowns and/or high activity on the bus or subway - where everyone is in a closed space and there is no escape between long stops or stations). The best way that I have handled these public transit situations is to literally get off at the next stop. If DD can't settle down when asked to, we simply get off. This might sound harsh to some people but it is a consequence of her behavior. Interestingly it has worked, because she has come to realize that she won't get from point A to point B as efficiently. I should also add that there have been times when DH and I forgo certain activites simply because we don't believe DD is ready for them. At two I would have expected to have trouble with DD in public settings. At four, my expectations for behaving appropriately are much higher. I believe that removing DD from a situation where she is infringing on others' rights is entirely appropriate.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Thanks Melanie and others.
> 
> 3rdly, testosterone factor-im glad to hear from other single moms, ok, so its not the testosterone factor. Yay! It was just an idea. I love being a single mom, and would not use that as an excuse. Im just putting ideas out there. Btw, my dad was scary, because he was big. Men are really big to little kids. You can be scary without meaning to be.


My Dad was scary, too. Not because he was big, but because he was a jerk.

Dh isn't huge, but to a kid he might be. Ds's uncle is 6'4". In this house, a big man is pretty much akin to a giant teddy bear, as far as I can tell. So, I wouldn't go with that theory.

You've gotten some great advice, so I don't have too much to add. I do agree that boundaries are not punitive. Good luck!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama*
> Dh isn't huge, but to a kid he might be. Ds's uncle is 6'4". In this house, a big man is pretty much akin to a giant teddy bear, as far as I can tell. So, I wouldn't go with that theory.


Agreed. My dad is "only" 6', but he's one of the strongest men I've ever known (physically, I mean) and people can sense it. My friends in high school were kind of intimidated him and I heard more than once that my dad "another Arnold Schwarzenegger". However, as kids, none of us - me, my siblings, cousins, friends, etc. - were ever even remotely afraid of him. He was a total teddy bear, and wouldn't hurt a fly. Mom was occasionally a little intimidating, but not dad.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I havent read all of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and especially those with experience of consesual living.
> 
> ...


If by fear you mean fear of a parents wrath, then my kids haven't learned that at all. My kids don't fear me, they do respect me and know that when I say something and they can see what the good reason is they are allowed to ask and allowed to challenge.

You say your kids are much better behaved at home. That tells me that in the home they understand and have learned how to behave properly, not because of fear but because they have been practicing everyday for the past 5 and 2 years. Were as out and about, it's probably not everyday, and not for the same periods of time as at home. It's not about commanding, or fear, or control. It's about learning, respect and acknowledging that changes aren't going to happen over night. If you have to draw an imaginary circle on the ground and say "if you use your indoor voices and don't hurt anyone you can play how you want in this circle" and then let them run the edge of the circle fine. They do deserve the freedom to be themselves, but they also deserve to be taught that there are boundaries in this world that you need to stay inside of. In the end how you go about it is your business, but I do believe you will be doing them a disservice by deciding that it's just who they are. "Boys will be boys" or "kids will be kids" doesn't teach them to be responsible for their own actions.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

All of this talk about needs. Well, what about the needs and rights of other people? You know, the ones that your children are disturbing? It is fine to raise your children however you see fit, but there is NOTHING wrong with setting limits and boundaries, and teaching your children how you expect them to behave.

I also take issue with the tone of your posts. You assume a lot about other people, obviously. I have a very good friend who has never yelled at her kids or spanked them. EVER. And they are two of the most polite children you will ever meet. They are both teens now and still very polite. They do NOT fear their parents. But, my friend never just let her kids run wild either. She taught them how to act, and was was expected, and there were consequences to any misbehavior. And she never let her kids disturb other people, either.

Before anyone says it, I am NOT saying that kids should "be seen and not heard". But there is a lot of gray area between letting them run wild and "seen and not heard".

I guess that I do not understand raising your kids without boundaries and limits. Because once they are grown, there WILL be laws, and rules at their jobs, and other places that they will have to follow or face prosecution or getting fired. If we do not prepare our kids for the real world, then what will happen to them?

I guess you really didn't want advice. Perhaps you just wanted validation. I cannot give you that. But I wish you a lot of luck with your kids.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

My basic question to you would be: How are you teaching your children what acceptable behavior is in public? It sounds like you remove them when it gets to be too much and you do talk to them about being considerate. Do you talk to them in very specific terms? I stop my children from making a lot of noise in church or from running around not because it's 'bad' behavior, but because they are preventing other people from paying attention when they want to. Your 2 year old is too young to understand that, realistically, but your 5 year old should be able to begin to make the connection between: "If I'm speaking loudly, other people can't hear." So, how can you help them learn these fundamental things? What will help him understand? It takes lots of practice to remember that if you talk loudly, others can't hear, or if that you are running pell-mell in a place not meant for running, you might run someone over.

Would it help your parenitng journey if you reframed discipline as 'teaching'? I understand that you detest physical force, bossiness or manipulation. But there are many ways to teach that don't involve any of those things. That teaching is still discipline. For our family, it's going to look different than it will for yours -- partly because of my parenting beliefs, but partly because my kids just aren't that high energy. Dd is highly emotional, but physically not that active. Ds is just a mellow guy who 'freezes' when he's nervous, so in public, he stuck to us like glue at this age. So my parenting challenges involve helping dd learn emotional regulation and teaching ds that it's safe to stretch his comfort zone.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> just skimmed...
> 
> in this particular situation, i would like to be able to take my kids somewhere that is beneficial for them, without having to feel like im running a marathon and being judged by onlookers despite my best efforts...wondering what is the true cause behind this...the 'public' situation, 'crowd' situation seems to bring out ths behaviour...with rare exceptions, nobody here apparently ever experiences this...it would be nice to hear im not the only one but apparently i am...what do i want? I want answers that feel true. I havent even read most of the posts yet, so i cant comment in any detail


Your kids are still very young. Sometimes it's just hard to take a 2 and 5 year old anywhere, especially if they're high energy. If you still have this problem in 2-3 years, then I'd say you need to look at how you parent and whether you really are teaching your kids public behavior expectations.

Some kids get energized by the extra stimulation of being out in public. Sometimes it's because they're extroverts and it gives them energy. Sometimes because it's sensory overload and they're not very good at regulating that. One thing that you might try (sorry, maybe it's been suggested - I did skim) is to give them a lot of large motor physical exercise to get the energy out before going someplace that might expect somewhat more mellow behavior.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Lastly, i define consensual living in the parenting context as not forcing children to do something because you are bigger and stronger but giving them the chance to say what they need. Finding a solution when there is a conflict, not just imposing your will. Not overpowering others, but finding a way to meet all needs, in effect, taking everyone's needs into account, consulting others on what should be done, finding solutions that meet all needs. Its perpetually looking for solutions really, rather than laying down hard and fast rules.
> (i suppose thats a rambly definition)


Question: Are you taking your own needs into account? It sounds to me like you're doing a lot to make sure that you take your sons' needs into account. Are you taking your own into account too? [This is where consentual living with young children breaks down for me: 2 year olds are not developmentally able to take my needs into account or a sibling's. So, how do you live consentually with a 2 year old?] But despite my misgivings about CL, what I don't hear in you're meeting your own needs. The answer might as simple as: Right now, their need to run around is stronger than my desire to take them places, so we'll skip that and because I'm the mom, I'm OK with it. But I think it should be a conscious choice, and that you should beware of being a martyr and building up resentment.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I do appreciate the replies, but its sounds like the assumption is that i just let my kids disrupt everyone. I am a polite person, so i do not allow this, and i take them out. It is very very very very exhausting for me. I am trying to figure out why other parents just sit there, and so do their kids (most of them), while mine donT. Admittedly, my 5yo is usually ok, not always. He has matured a bit and maturity plays into this. But he can still act goofy while his peers wouldnt dare.
> 
> ...


I haven't read all the posts, yet.

A lot of behaviors happen because of temperament. People can't help the temperament they have and there are strengths and weaknesses for every temperament trait. It's our job as parents to help our kids develop their personal strengths. Having a high energy and outgoing toddler can be exhausting for a young child's parents, but being high energy and outgoing can help a person be a socially successful and productive person. Some of the other high energy outgoing preschoolers and toddlers just don't go to places where they can't behave appropriately. My 5 year old DD took a year long break from restaurants, indoor kids groups (like library story time) and most shopping when she was around two. She just was just too busy to be safe or behave appropriately at some places. We also started going to parks that had fences or were surrounded by very large fields. Sometimes one of us put her in the backpack when we went somewhere crowded. We still tried going to places but left at the first sign that she wasn't up for it. By the time she was 3, things were getting better and by 4 her self control and ability to listen was much more in place. I also don't think leaving if a person isn't able to behave appropriately is punitive. It's stressful being somewhere that is too structured or quiet for your temperament. We'd just do things that suited her better, going to places where she could run, climb and be noisy.

We have boundaries and rules but we don't use punishment at all. Our rules are about safety and being respectful of other people and they're family rules for everyone to follow not just DD. We do talk about behaviors and why things are a good idea or a bad idea. But at age two we usually just left if DD couldn't behave. For example when at a restaurant, one parent would take DD for a walk outside while the other would pay and get the food to take it home. Actually DD didn't really mind leaving when she wasn't able to stay in her seat in the booth and play with whatever we brought. If leaving annoyed anyone it was annoying for DH and I, but we figured DD couldn't help her temperament and would grow out of it. It seems we were right.

Find some places you can take your DSs that fit their temperaments better so it isn't so exhausting.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

a PP mentioned using the word "teaching" or "guidance" (i can't remember which it was) instead of discipline or punishment. which i think is truly what parenting is all about. we are here to guide and teach. it doesn't have to be done with fear and being mean or overpowering someone. but i can't see CL with a two year old really being effective because they have no life experience to take into account anyones needs but their own (because that is how it should be for them). it is our job to help them, you just can't expect that to happen. that isn't saying they need to be forced to do things they don't want to all the time, but sometimes every single person has to do something they don't really enjoy 100% of the time. and it shouldn't always be mama.

if their behavior is upsetting to you and disruptive to a group maybe talking isn't the answer, maybe just not going to temple for awhile (not as punishment) will help out. they will get older, understand things a bit better, be able to exert some self control and the whole experience will be better for everyone, them included.

there have been times where i have just stopped doing an activity with the kids because it is just too stressful, they are wild and i am at my wits end and we just try again later. sometimes it is just a couple weeks or months other times (depending on the child and the situation) it could be a year. i never have it as some sort of punishment, it just is easier for everyone to not do that thing. and we exchange it for something everyone can enjoy better. maybe communing with nature on sunday going for a walk/hike with them maybe talking about god with in that context? maybe just seeing if they can be quiet enough to hear the birds or see if they can be still enough to have the chipmunk get close to them. looking for flowers or moss or whatever. helping them be in that moment. maybe after doing that for a bit they will be able to focus a bit more in other situations. even if it takes a bit. plus they can run and laugh and shout and climb because that is what outside is for.

just an idea anyway.

h


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Nicely, because you are the parent and they are the kids, but you are expecting them to parent themselves. You know the statement "parenting is not for wimps?" Well, that is not just referring to dirty diapers. Children do not tend to become happy adults and their self esteem suffers when they do not have rules and boundaries. This includes consistent and reasonable consequences.

I hope I have helped. I know it is hard, but the best piece of advice I have ever been given is "if you cannot get control of your children now, what do you expect to happen when they are teens." This statement is so true.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I should add, I am stay-at-home mom with no nanny. I do most of the parenting. I am trying to put this nicely, but parenting your children is not child abuse. You need to say no, you need to take away privileges. You need to set down rules and consequences. Taking a child out of the room is not a consequence. You are doing a serious disservice to your children and everyone else around them when you do not parent them. Being their friend is not the same as parenting.

Attachment parenting still involves parenting. If your toddler wants to jump in a pool by himself but does not know how to swim, do you just let him and when he drowns, act confused because afterall, he wanted to jump in that pool? Probably not. Yet, you take your children in public when they don't know how to behave. You don't teach them how to behave, and now you are confused when they don't just parent themselves. They are "sinking" and you need to wake up to this now before it is too late and pull them out and start raising them. There are many books on parenting that do not involve hitting children. You might want to start there.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

My children are listened to and given a chance to express their opinions and feelings and such. But when it is time to sit and pay attention, they better do it. I tell them what is expected ahead of time. Then, if they do not do as expected, they get a stern look and stern voice bringing them back to where they belong. If I have to take them out, then they will get a lecture and a consequence, not a trip to a playground.

That being said, I just would not likely expect a 2 yr old to sit still long, but I also would not allow him to run the aisles or climb furniture. He would be in the nursery. I would also bring a "busy bag" that is special and only has things for that time period.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I should add, I am stay-at-home mom with no nanny. I do most of the parenting. I am trying to put this nicely, but parenting your children is not child abuse. You need to say no, you need to take away privileges. You need to set down rules and consequences. Taking a child out of the room is not a consequence. You are doing a serious disservice to your children and everyone else around them when you do not parent them. Being their friend is not the same as parenting.


I would respectfully disagree with this. I agree that children need discipline, but there are different types of consequences that work. For toddler who can't understand why their behavior is disruptive, taking the child out to run in a safe space is an appropriate 'consequence'. The consequences for the behavior should be related to the behavior and should help teach the child. If a child is removed every time they get too loud, they will eventually learn to be quieter. Time cures a lot of things as well. A lot gain be gained simply by waiting until a child is in the appropriate developmental stage to teach something. For toddlers, your primary mode is prevention. For preschoolers, it's teaching them to use their words and not their bodies. For older children it gets more sophisticated -- how to think of others, how to monitor and adjust your own behavior, the consequences of your behavior on others. I'm not saying that my children never have issues, but as they get older, I can see that they are gaining more and more competence and more and more control over their behavior. My job is to guide them -- sometimes that's a gentle nudge, sometimes that's a firm barrier.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> My children are listened to and given a chance to express their opinions and feelings and such. But when it is time to sit and pay attention, they better do it. I tell them what is expected ahead of time. Then, if they do not do as expected, they get a stern look and stern voice bringing them back to where they belong. If I have to take them out, then they will get a lecture and a consequence, not a trip to a playground.


IME, lectures do very little good. When emotions run high, it is not a learning experience. Lectures may make me feel better, but they don't do much. In fact, it's worse than that for my kids, lecturing raises the tension and turns their brains off. Removing, calming down, and talking when necessary does work. Yes, we use consequences, but either they're usually immediate and very related (especially for much younger kids). The 'worst' that it's gotten lately is sending our kids to their room to cool off. You know what? It works.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't go to the park. Once the 'offense' has been dealt with, why withhold a trip to the park? I was ticked this evening because dd was whining through chores. I'd promised her earlier (before chore time) that I'd play a game with her. Now, I could have said "no, I don't feel like it, you've been a complete pill and I'm cranky." However, she did do her chores, and I had promised. We played Kids on Stage and both felt better afterward. She completed the bedtime routine without whining. She didn't need another consequence, she needed connection with me. You might like to read Unconditional Parenting.

My basic parenting beliefs are that children want to please their parents and they want to find their place in society. They need to be socialized into how best to do that. That socialization should take the form of teaching. Children learn best when their emotional and physical needs have been met, and we understand where they are developmentally. How you go about doing that teaching depends on your temperament and theirs, in addition to their developmental stage. There are a lot of ways of doing it, but some children need more active teaching (rather than just modeling).


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> in this particular situation, i would like to be able to take my kids somewhere that is beneficial for them, without having to feel like im running a marathon and being judged by onlookers despite my best efforts...wondering what is the true cause behind this...the 'public' situation, 'crowd' situation seems to bring out ths behaviour...with rare exceptions, nobody here apparently ever experiences this...it would be nice to hear im not the only one but apparently i am...what do i want?


Uh, I experience it all the time (with GIRLS! OMG! LOL).

I leave the area.

Yes it sucks.

Yes it is tiring.

Yes people stare.

Welcome to my world. You can look at my past posts. My kids are monkeys. But that does not mean we have to impose on others.

FWIW, my kids know I'm serious when I tell them, "You may not do that here. We will leave if you continue." It took DD1 a few times to get it, but she got it (though I started with her younger). DD2 is still not able to control herself, but she will get it.

Quote:


> Sigh...i think i may be stuck with this behaviour until they grow out of it, because i do believe its more a personality issue.


All of us posted about our kids that are very exploratory and active, and how we deal with it (most of us have to leave the situation, for everyone's sake), and this does let them know what is and is not appropriate and where, and you think we are just... telling you "you better do something about those kids"? We've all been there. Believe me, I understand how hard it is to come up with alternatives when everyone else smacks. I am in that situation in this community. But while you can accept their behavior, others do not have to. Don't be surprised if someone, amazed at the fact that you haven't left already, asks you to leave somewhere.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I should add, I am stay-at-home mom with no nanny. I do most of the parenting. I am trying to put this nicely, but parenting your children is not child abuse. You need to say no, you need to take away privileges. You need to set down rules and consequences. Taking a child out of the room is not a consequence. You are doing a serious disservice to your children and everyone else around them when you do not parent them. Being their friend is not the same as parenting.
> 
> Attachment parenting still involves parenting. If your toddler wants to jump in a pool by himself but does not know how to swim, do you just let him and when he drowns, act confused because afterall, he wanted to jump in that pool? Probably not. Yet, you take your children in public when they don't know how to behave. You don't teach them how to behave, and now you are confused when they don't just parent themselves. They are "sinking" and you need to wake up to this now before it is too late and pull them out and start raising them. There are many books on parenting that do not involve hitting children. You might want to start there.


Removing a child for a situation they are not emotionally or psychologically capable of handling is very much a consequence. It's a consequence that said child may even have to deal with as an adult if they aren't behaving properly in a public place. It's called "getting kicked out". What is a more natural consequence to acting up somewhere than leaving? If you can't behave you don't get to stay.

We do that with DS and we did that with DD. Guess what, they both have a good idea of what is expected of them. The only thing that stops DS most of the time is he is still too young to have that much control over himself. DD has a very well developed sense of what is appropriate and what isn't, so much so that now at 12 if she finds her self in a state where she doesn't think she can behave appropriately she will extricate herself or ask for DH or I to take her elsewhere.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Haven't got time to read everything, sorry...

OP - when my DD1 was about 18months old i was in a park with MY dad and her (i was a single mum, and i am GD/AP, though not CL - i'll explain why as i go!). She was running about and i was following her closely and reminding her constantly not to go too far. My dad said "you hover, just let her go, she'll come back, you'll see". Now, i had encountered that attitude a LOT from other parents whose kids, for whatever reason, were more inclined to stay close. I had said to him before that she wouldn't come back but he clearly just believed i was too paranoid about it and if i let HER find her limits i would see that she would really come back and stick by me and behave well (as an aside, she looks VERY like i did at her age and i think my dad viewed her almost as a replica - i was bold, but DD is something else!). So, i let her run. When she got about a quarter of a mile from us (it's the city green, so plenty big enough to let her run) he began to twitch gently round the edges and i said "so, you see?" and he said "Oh my!" and i sprinted after her and brought her back. My eldest was a very HN baby, and a is a very spirited child. She is very intelligent and precocious. About 80% of the time she really CAN work stuff out for herself, but she thinks it's 100% so fairly often i am having to force her to stop something or reconsider or whatever. I use peaceful timeouts (she isn't ignored, she is encouraged to calm down, asked to sit on the stairs while she does so and offered the choice of company or not, i'm fairly sure she doesn't see it as punitive, as she will take HERSELF to time-out when things are getting out of hand) i don't spank, i try not to yell (but am human!) and i try to give logical consequences whenever possible. When i was PG i was going to do CL. It wasn't until i was faced with this child that i realised i wasn't. Not that i think it can't work, only that i know it would be VERY VERY hard on me and my family trying to be CL with this child. She doesn't have any C! LOL. It's her way all the way. I now have a DH but TBH she behaves worse with him than me. I use voice tone, "the look" and playful techniques in whatever ways seem best at the time to handle these things.

I like CL. I think it's a beautiful philosophy and i know several families who do great with it. BUT i also know a few like mine, who just can. not. do. it. with the kids they have. I believe, if i parent successfully, DD1 will be ready to be more CL by the time she's in her mid-teens. But i think if i try it now she will be out of control by then instead. She NEEDS boundaries, and she NEEDS me to set them because she sets herself crazy ones (at 18months, when she ran in the park, she was already talking well enough to tell me she was "goin swimmins" when i caught up with her, that is, she was going, alone, to the pool 1mile away!). The things she does many other kids wouldn't even consider (she once lifted a burning coal out of a lit fire! She is FEARLESS and tough - she had such dry hands that day, she didn't burn a bit! But the rug, where the coal got dropped, certainly did!). It's much harder to be CL with a kid like this, and i wonder if you happened to get 2 very spirited boys and thus a) it's YOUR norm, and so you blame the parenting for the behaviour rather than seeing that the behaviour is inherent and the parenting circumstantial, and b) you don't get the chance to see another one of your own kids behaving "well" to show you that your parenting CAN work great, it just doesn't seem to for them.

Now, XP and i (dd1's parents) are both people who WILL flaunt social "rules" when we see fit - i will tell strangers they are beautiful, XP will make a fool of himself to make strangers laugh. BUT we know those rules. So when we break them we are able to do so in a way which isn't too painful for anyone (i.e. XP can heckle comedians in a way which is entertaining to everyone, including the comedian, i can intrude upon someone's sensibilities profoundly but gently so they aren't harmed in the process). DD can't. She's too young, she's ready to flaunt but she's not grasped the rules yet. SO i have to teach her, and it's HARD. I cannot imagine how much harder it'd be if i was trying to be CL too.

So my overall point is a) do you think it might just be that you don't have kids who naturally accept social limitations easily and b) maybe a different approach would be beneficial for them until they learn those limitations?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Removing a child for a situation they are not emotionally or psychologically capable of handling is very much a consequence.


Agreed. Not only that, but it's the consequence most adults face when we do socially unacceptable or harmful things to others. They don't go up to a loud drunk in a restaurant and smack him on the butt, do they? Or take away his cell phone? First, they would cut him off, then, if the behavior didn't improve, he'd be asked to leave. If he refused, they would physically remove him. And if he was belligerent and violent, he would be locked up somewhere (viz. jail).

So I think that asking a child to stop, removing and unnecessary stimuli, and then leaving for some fresh air or permanently if necessary, are quite fair consequences to expect children to deal with, not easy, and not harsh. That is just what happens. It saves others the trouble, it teaches the child what you can do where, and it is quite respectful and civilized for all involved.

Except possibly the parent, LOL.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Humans live in groups, and have since becoming human.

Children are born with the instincts necessary to learn about those groups and become a part of the group they are born into.

Those instincts include seeking information about what is "appropriate behavior" for their group. They WANT to know this. They CRAVE this information. They NEED it, developmentally, to grow up as a human being.

I'm not talking about "keeping them in their place," or "Showing them who's boss.' But children need feedback -- repeated, clear, feedback -- about what is and is not okay to do to their fellow human beings, and how context affects that.

Running around like crazed weasels is developmentally appropriate on a number of levels -- they're exploring their physical world and the way it works, and they're also exploring their social world and the way IT works -- "What happens if I drop this? Does it bounce? Does it break? What happens if I poke that girl with a stick? Does she cry? Does someone take the stick away? What happens if I say this word in public? Do people laugh? Do people frown?"

And setting limits and having expectations of them is also developmentally appropriate. Taking that stick so no one gets hurt? That give the child information they need. Taking that ball and showing them where it is okay to bounce it? More information! Frowning, shaking your head, telling them their words were hurtful when they say something cruel? Even more information that they can use to put together a picture of what is and is not okay to do, both physically and socially.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Its perpetually looking for solutions really, rather than laying down hard and fast rules.
> (i suppose thats a rambly definition)


Consider that the two are not mutually exclusive.

For me, it helped to grow confident defining and communicating a strong boundary (hard and fast rule), and then look for solutions within those boundaries.

Think of a clearly stated rule as helping your child be successful in the situation, rather than frustrating or limiting you child. If rules help your child manage the situation successfully, it will result in fewer limits and less frustration for both of you.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> 3rdly, testosterone factor-im glad to hear from other single moms, ok, so its not the testosterone factor. Yay! It was just an idea. I love being a single mom, and would not use that as an excuse. Im just putting ideas out there. Btw, my dad was scary, because he was big. Men are really big to little kids. You can be scary without meaning to be.


I really don't like the tone of this. My best friend is a big girl - tall, loud, muscularly built - she's FAR scarier than any other man I've ever met! The dean of my law school (the DEAN!) is a woman, and she's at least 6ft. Her husband is 5'5" - who do you think is "scarier" in their household? I've been to their house, our children attend the same daycare - they are both wonderfully gentle parents, and their dd is a handful.

I think you should drop the sexism - it's not going to benefit your children.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I understand not wanting to punish your kids for just acting like kids, and using consequences to teach is a form of punishment, though often very mild, and I can see wanting to avoid that.

But sometimes you have to act on something not to teach your kids or make them face consequences, but because you're living among other people and part of living among other people in a respectful way is making sure your children, who are your responsibility, aren't being disruptive. It isn't about punishment, it's about having boundaries and being responsible and understanding that not everyone should have to deal with kids running around if it's a place where that is inappropriate.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

there is some really great advice here. lol i think i will be taking some notes.

the whole lecture/talk their ear off thing only works with some young children. my dd when she was little (2-3) seemed to grasp most of a lecture, but some of her brothers have not. my oldest son was pretty good at it but my now 6 year old can't sit thru one. lol i don't think a consequence has to be a bad thing. if the child can't be still inside to me the "punishment" to them and everyone is to have to stay in there going nuts. which isn't fun for them or the group. taking them outside to run off that energy is good for them and the group. i just don't see why to teach a child there has to be some sort of constant unpleasantness for them. i tend to learn better when the situation is nice and friendly. so if the kids are being nutty and getting into stuff they shouldn't then take them someplace they can be nutty and get into stuff. like i said a walk in the woods or a trip to the park.

h


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## annamama (Sep 23, 2005)

I think you're thinking too much! I wouldn't get too tied up over what does or doesn't fit a philosophy and just go with what feels right. I adore my son and he is the centre of my life, but he does not consume every thought I have - nor does the way I do, or don't parent. I'm a better GD parent now than I was when I was obsessively reading and thinking about it, all the time bemoaning the fact that I was the only person who had 'seen the light'.

DS is a delightful child who is generally given positive feedback from strangers for his lovely, friendly personality, but equally he has behaved inappropriately and we have had to leave and I have to remind him of the way he is expected to conduct himself. Sometimes, this message has to be repeated many, many times, so I do just that. No biggie.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Don't lay down rules then, but at least live by principles. At this point, the reigning principle should be respect for EVERYONE. Not just allowing one child to run, but to consistently remind him that there are other people in the world, some of whom didn't sign up for chaos. "People are trying to listen, we'll run outside" You're respecting your child's need, you're both respecting the needs of the other people.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


and I'm going to :yeah

Adults in general are big to small children. My mother, at a foot shorter than my dad, was much scarier to me as a child because she would yell, or throw clothes at us. My dad is very quiet spoken and gentle.


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## AirMiami (Feb 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.


My daughter is exactly like your son.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

(this turned out to be a horrifically long answer, but it's a story of how I dealt with this situation, with success. so if anyone's looking for ideas....)

I used to ask the OP's question all the time. My DS, now 7 (will be 8 in a few months) has always been "different." (We are eclectic homeschoolers tending toward unschooling). He is creative, very physical, amazingly verbal, easily "set off" by loud sounds, chaotic settings, certain music, or physical "attacks" (i.e. aggressive play or behaviors) from other kids. Needless to say we've had our times where I thought "wow, I really wish I could get my kid to be 'well behaved' like other people's kids". He doesn't fear authority in the least. (frankly, I think this will serve him well if anyone tries to manipulate or harm him in the coming years)

We aren't exactly consensual living, but we do a lot of that, only I came to realize that part of the chaos in the behavior department was that I had not set firm limits about appropriate behaviors when we were out in different settings. I had TOLD him what not to do, but I don't think I had much credibility. Or something. I realized this a few months ago when we were in our favorite store, where we are well-known by all the employees because of my son's precociousness and usual adorableness (they've told me this). Well THIS time, he was off by himself and I was shopping, and first he came around the corner looking really aggravated and complained to me "an employee here was REALLY bossy" followed by the employee herself coming around the corner and informing me FIVE customers complained about my son's behavior, running around, etc. FIVE! One would have been bad enough. I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me. What really tipped me off that I had some serious attitudinal correction to do was that my SON was mad because of the employee! HE was indignant about what SHE had done! Not one bit of remorse. He was ticked off at her. Good heavens. I realized that I had really failed. First, we left the store, and second, I set about realizing that I had a lot of work to do.

When we got home, I told him to first write a note of apology to the store. I NEVER demand apologies, thinking instead that apologies should be sincere and heartfelt, and that forced apologies were meaningless. Too bad. I plunked a blank notecard down in front of him and said "What would you like your apology note to say?" He replied sullenly, one word: "Sorry". I said "That's not good enough. Here is what you will write. I want you to copy this: "I am sorry for running around and being rude." (I was mad...can you tell?) So he did. (And he decorated the front of the card quite nicely without any prompting from me.)

Secondly, I told him that I clearly needed to teach him what was the appropriate behavior in the store and elsewhere, so he would know. First, we were not going to go into any stores together that we didn't absolutely HAVE to, and that included toy stores and libraries. Secondly, I started including "behavior lessons" as part of the minimal morning study that we do (we usually just do a little math and reading or writing practice, being mostly unschoolers but not 100%). I designed little multiple-choice questions for him regarding behavior. He LOVED these things! He always knew the right answers, which I never doubted. It was his WILL to adhere to the correct behaviors in public that was in question. Anyway, we did about a week of lessons like this.

Then we started practicing. I said "OK, I think we're ready to try going into stores. I know you want to go to Target and buy the toy you've been saving up for, but I am not taking you into a store until I can ABSOLUTELY COUNT on you to do the right thing. We are going into this small grocery store right now to practice. I want you to shadow me. Do you know what that is? I want you to be close like you're my shadow. I want to be able to reach out and touch you. Do you understand? (Yes) OK. So we did a test run at the tiny store. He did EXCELLENT. And we had fun. Usually, he would run off and strike up conversations with employees or other customers, and I had to shop alone. But this time he stayed with me. (He had a goal. He desperately wanted that toy from Target.) And it was fun having him close by because we could talk and I could show him things, talk about products, etc. I told him how much I enjoyed having him with me. When we got out to the car, I did what had been unthinkable to us, the nearly-unschoolers: I took out my little pad of paper, wrote down the store name and the date, and I gave him a grade: A+ (First I had to explain what grades were! ha ha) Later that day, in a "big box" store, he got tempted to run off, and he even started to leave me and looked back over his shoulder like "are you gonna stop me?" and took off. I calmly finished my shopping, taking care to remove the cookies from the cart and put them back on the shelf, headed to the register, and was this close to having him paged when he showed up. He got an F for that trip. Pretty soon he started to enjoy racking up the good grades on the little pad of paper (he never got another F). He would aim for them and ask to see the list. To this day he stays with me in a store. He knows I mean business.

I think the fact that he is 7 really makes a difference. He is able to see that not only do I mean business--that I will NOT tolerate inappropriate behavior--but I think it's a little easier for him to control himself now as he is getting older. But it's still important that I spell out in advance what the appropriate actions are for each setting. I will say "Ok, we are going into the robotics presentation. We need to be quiet because the person is telling about the robots and we must be polite." or "We're going into the church now, where you'll need to sit quietly. Would you like a small pad of paper so you can draw?" "We can't stay in the library if you run. Please use your slow speed." It's amazing how he has come around since the horrid 5-complaints incident! He asks me "Mama can I go over there?" and sometimes I say No and he gets mad but he listens. It's truly a transformation.

It was essential that I get into the driver's seat as parent. We are very democratic and consensual and all that when in a setting where we CAN. Which is most of the time. But in areas where I need to be the parent to guide him and teach him, he needs to know I'm going to give him the tools he needs to succeed. I mean, it does him no favors if I let him be a wild man wherever we go. Then I'd be too nervous to sign him up for programs and activities because I can't count on him to behave appropriately. He would end up missing out. I need to equip him so he can fit in and succeed wherever he may go. Not like a doormat or a sheep, but with appropriate respect for the people he's with.


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## karanyavel (May 8, 2010)

Haven't read the whole thread yet but...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> Develop "the look" that many mothers have. It more than replaces the deep voice and testosterone.


This!!

It works on partners, too (okay, just kidding.. kind of..







).

Not a single mom, more GD than CL here, but like others have said, it's not the testosterone around here. I'm a SAHM and definitely do more of the discipline stuff -- not that we do much of it at all, really -- than my DH does. "The look" is key, not only to making sure my own children behave reasonably well but in making sure OTHER kids behave. (Yep, I use it on other peoples' kids when they're being unkind to DD with great success.) We do kind of have CL leanings... we're kinda-sorta radical unschoolers (more radical than unschooly but that's a long story).

In any case, our reaction to public misbehavior/wildness when DD was younger went like this:

First couple of times it happens in a given situation -- administer "the look" and insist on a quick chat with DD to make sure she understands we're not okay with how she's acting.

After that, we leave but try again at a (soon -- within a week or so) later date.

If it continues, we mark that particular public situation as one that needs to be delayed until she's older and try again in a few months.

We had a lot of trouble with store trips in particular and there was one point where DD pretty much didn't get to go to the store for almost a year. She was 2 y/o at the time. It sucked because we really like to do our grocery shopping as a family, but it was just way too stressful for everyone.

In many ways, I let DD "run wild" and always have, but we do have to have consequences for behaviors that are harmful or disruptive to others.

Some kids are just more laid back than others, though. My first DD was easy as pie, my second not so much... she's very physically active, highly social, and has some mild issues that when put together with her urge to be around other kids and run around, led to a lot of wild and crazy behavior in public. It got better with age, mostly because she could eventually understand the idea of social rules. Before that, we did have to limit where we went and how often.

--K


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.


Careful with the gender stereo-types. My ds is very very cautious. He always stuck by me. Heck, he's 9 and he still freaks out a bit when I go around into a different aisle in a store and he can't see me. As a 1-2 year old, dd was much more fearless. Ditto for whether fathers or mothers are 'scarier'. It all depends on the situation. Yes, men can in general be scarier, but I suspect my kids are more scared by me when I'm angry than they are by dh when he's angry. I blow up more.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> It was essential that I get into the driver's seat as parent. We are very democratic and consensual and all that when in a setting where we CAN. Which is most of the time. But in areas where I need to be the parent to guide him and teach him, he needs to know I'm going to give him the tools he needs to succeed. I mean, it does him no favors if I let him be a wild man wherever we go. Then I'd be too nervous to sign him up for programs and activities because I can't count on him to behave appropriately. He would end up missing out. I need to equip him so he can fit in and succeed wherever he may go. Not like a doormat or a sheep, but with appropriate respect for the people he's with.


Very interesting post -- what strikes me about your experience was that you eventually had to make behavior expectations overt and discuss them. Talking about what he should do, practicing it and then giving feedback (however you chose to do it) was a very effective teaching strategy. My older child needs that kind of teaching. My younger one doesn't. What you found out was that your son needed the direct teaching, and you implemented in it a way that worked for both of you. That's a good example of realizing that your child has needs that were different from what your expectations were, and rising to meet them.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I havent read all of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and especially those with experience of consesual living.
> 
> ...


Naomi Aldort would probably ask you to pay for a consultation, based on the Q& A she had posted on the old site.

I liked the advice upthread about actively caring for your 2 year old at the gathering, sharing snacks and toys with him. Perhaps you could even enlist his older brother into helping with that and by giving the 5 year old more responsibility it would help settle them both down.

I also think it's interesting that you say they are very good at home. It makes me wonder if they really just need more clear instructions as to what's expected at temple or the park or the library? I don't think you have to yell and be a different parent, but perhaps clarify what you need to have a good day out? You could make up a list of expectations for going out: I use inside voice, I am respectful of others property, I stay within Mommy's eyesight (or whatever is important to you) and then read it to them each day before you go out. I do that with my five year old and she actually really likes it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> I think the fact that he is 7 really makes a difference. He is able to see that not only do I mean business--that I will NOT tolerate inappropriate behavior--but I think it's a little easier for him to control himself now as he is getting older. But it's still important that I spell out in advance what the appropriate actions are for each setting. I will say "Ok, we are going into the robotics presentation. We need to be quiet because the person is telling about the robots and we must be polite." or "We're going into the church now, where you'll need to sit quietly. Would you like a small pad of paper so you can draw?" "We can't stay in the library if you run. Please use your slow speed." It's amazing how he has come around since the horrid 5-complaints incident! He asks me "Mama can I go over there?" and sometimes I say No and he gets mad but he listens. It's truly a transformation.
> 
> It was essential that I get into the driver's seat as parent. We are very democratic and consensual and all that when in a setting where we CAN. Which is most of the time. But in areas where I need to be the parent to guide him and teach him, he needs to know I'm going to give him the tools he needs to succeed. I mean, it does him no favors if I let him be a wild man wherever we go. Then I'd be too nervous to sign him up for programs and activities because I can't count on him to behave appropriately. He would end up missing out. I need to equip him so he can fit in and succeed wherever he may go. Not like a doormat or a sheep, but with appropriate respect for the people he's with.


Can I just say I really love how you handled this, especially the little quizzes on what would be appropriate? I know it may not be the way to go with younger kids but I think it was brilliant.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I have to say that I found it somewhat offensive to have responses characterized in a certain way, while admitting to not reading most of them. And the gender sterotypes? Throw those out the window. My daughter is much more aggressive and active than my son has ever been.

Being a single parent is not an excuse for poorly behaved children. And yes, children who disrupt an entire congregation are poorly behaved. But... they don't know better if they aren't taught how to behave in a non-disruptive manner.

I started taking my kids to Church with me when they were infants. We do not have a nursery, children's room, or anything like that. There is one Liturgy, and everyone attends - infants, toddlers, adolescents, adults, elderly. And - no pews. I started by taking them for short stints, covering the most important parts of the service. As they got older and understood more, we stayed longer. They knew each time we went how long we were staying - and how I expected them to behave for that period of time. Afterwards, we'd do something special, whether it was out to lunch, home to watch a movie, run around like maniacs, etc.

And... The Look. It doesn't have to imply a threat of punishment to come. My kids understood that it meant "that's not okay - please stop." and the likelihood of no special fun after. My SIL used to marvel that they'd beacting up and then stop, and I never had to say or do a thing. LOL Of course I did. I gave them the look.

Life is MUCH more pleasant when you can take your kids places and not have to ride herd. I know parents who are very strict with their kids, and they are terrors in public. I know others who do nothing... same thing. Then I know the complete opposites. If what you're doing isn't working? Time to try something else! We don't get instruction manuals, so it's trial by error. But... in order for that to be effective, one has to be willing to try alternative methods.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Life is MUCH more pleasant when you can take your kids places and not have to ride herd. I know parents who are very strict with their kids, and they are terrors in public.


This is a really good point which should be considered at length. I was raised by extremely strict father, and after the divorce, by my completely negligent mother. (both ends of the extreme). When I left home at 17 to go to college, I completely rebelled and did everything that I was forbidden to do before. "A hah!" I thought. They can't see me!!

This is, I imagine, not that uncommon. I saw a cartoon movie the other day (Jimmy Neutron) where the parents in town were all suddenly abducted by aliens, and the first thing the kids did was celebrate. Woo hoo! The parents were gone!! And they immediately started to misbehave and do all the forbidden things. The town was trashed. I know it is a cartoon but it resonated with how I grew up. Contrast that to my son's friends. We are in an unschooling/freeschooling/eclectic schooling community....decidedly NOT "top-down strict authority"...more toward democratic settings, consensus based for the most part. If these kids were left alone I cannot see them saying "woo hoo, let's do something rotten now that no one is looking" I can imagine them just still being themselves, because in their daily lives they are not under constant scrutiny, micromanaged, punished etc. Instead, for the most part, the parents in our circle focus more on the relationship with the child over the long term versus short term compliance with the externals. In this type of setting you are less likely to have a kid that views the parent as taskmaster or enemy, someone to be outsmarted or escaped.

I don't have time to fully flesh out this idea at the moment, but it's worth considering. HOW we achieve a child who knows how to behave appropriately to a setting is very important. I bristled when I heard previous posters talk about being "scary" or using a scary voice. I remember when I used to parent that way. I had a very angry child most of the time and I was on this board reading how to deal with a biting, hitting child. Those days are gone. They left when I changed MY methods.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating strict, top-down authority through the teen years, or constant scrutiny and micromanagment of children at any age.

Appropriate control changes with the age and development of the child. My 3 yo needs a LOT more active communication about, and enforcement of rules than my 9 yo. I worried about doing things "just right" and avoiding punishment when dd was 3....but now that ds is 3, I can see the bigger picture and see how much happier and successful he is when there are very clear boundaries. He'll have less need for it when he matures, and we'll be happy to grant him more autonomy when he is ready.

I don't think I have a scary voice....but I definitely have a serious voice, and a serious look. I can call out ds's name from across the playground, make eye contact, hold out my palm in a "Stop." gesture, and he will generally stop doing the thing he knows I want him to stop (he already knows the rules). He knows the potential consequence is that I will bring him to sit on the bench with me for a few minutes until he can agree to play safely (not timed...just until he is calm and says "Ok, mommy. I won't throw mulch and the girls anymore"







) If I have to bring him to the bench more than 2x (rare), he is obviously having a bad day at the park and we go home.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Didn't read everything yet. Our kids are 5 and 3 (+ a 6 month old baby). When our kids are loud and wild in public, it is usually because they are tired or hungry.

I try to only go to public places with them when they are not close to naptime, bedtime or without food. Esp. when they get tired they cannot listen to me anymore, when that does happen I leave right away.

Kids these ages need to eat often. And my 3 year old needs to nap.

Carma


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Careful with the gender stereo-types. My ds is very very cautious.


I agree. I was at a playland today and I was chuckling because it was all the little boys clinging to mama... there were probably 20 kids there, 10 under five, and of those, maybe four or five were boys. There were four boys who kept hanging on mom, who was inevitably, "Look, Connor, look at the other kids, up there, on top of the slide... doesn't that look FUN?"

Connor: "Mama, is it scary?"

While my little girl, 19 months, is screaming bloody murder at me to get up on top of the big-kids toy. Naturally she hasn't hit fear yet (she might never) but all the boys that age were shying away.

I really wanted to say, "Tsk tsk, boys will be boys, won't they?"

But I didn't want to start a debate in the playland, LOL!

If we kept notebooks of boys and girls raised in modern society, of concrete indicators--hits, kicks, wrestling, head-butts, hanging from places, climbing on appropriate places, climbing in INappropriate places, running off, shrieking, shouting, playing shooting with a finger, etc. etc. I'm willing to bet they would be VERY close in children up to age seven, if not much older.

Instead, we all just see what we want to see and reinforce our own stereotypes.

Oh, and YES to "the look". My kids know when I'm serious. They also have an uncanny sense of when I don't want to leave... if I have a cup of coffee, watch out, world. "She's going to want to finish that coffee... we'll have at least four warnings before she sets it down... let's TRY!"

I am constitutionally unable to give a sincere Look when my coffee is in my hand. When I set that coffee down, it's my kids, not the world, that better watch out because they're going to be in the carseats and on the way home in no time. (And "no you may not play on my computer when we get home, I don't think you've been acting very respectful of other people and their things today, and I don't want to risk it!") They may, however, build a jungle gym out of their playroom furniture.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> If we kept notebooks of boys and girls raised in modern society, of concrete indicators--hits, kicks, wrestling, head-butts, hanging from places, climbing on appropriate places, climbing in INappropriate places, running off, shrieking, shouting, playing shooting with a finger, etc. etc. I'm willing to bet they would be VERY close in children up to age seven, if not much older.
> 
> Instead, we all just see what we want to see and reinforce our own stereotypes.


I agree. There are always exceptions, of course, but I haven't really noticed any major differences, overall, between girls and boys in these areas. As a toddler, dd1 was by far the most aggressive and demanding of my four. DS2 was the least so - and the "clingiest" (I don't like that term). That's just their temperaments.

Actually, overall, my experience has been that boys tend to be slightly more cuddly/clingy in some ways when they're very little. I'm not sure if that holds true in the general populace, though...and there's so much social pressure for boys to be "real boys" (aka miniature versions of some wonky masculine ideal) that we may never know.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Wish I could find the article I read once that said exactly this: From birth to about 3 (IIRC), boys and girls commit "aggressive" acts at the same rates. After that, girls begin to channel their aggression into social aggression ("We wont' play with you," "You can't be her friend,' "You're a poopyhead and I'm going to tell all your friends you suck your thumb." ). Boys continue to hit and kick each other. So we think "Boys are aggressive, girls aren't" when we've socialized the girls to act out their aggression socially and verbally.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

...did not have time to read some of the new replies in detail, but some of them look really helpful, and i look forward to reading them.

Gender stereotypes:not my style. Its just something that ive observed since becoming a parent. There are always exceptions. I mean i gave my boys dolls, and they werent very interested, but they loved cars. I only want to meet their needs, and try to understand them as best i can. They wear pink if that any consolation.

In thinking about this, ive begun to realize its not really about discipline. Taking them out, telling them what i expect, etc, works more like a bandaid, and its effect doesnt last. The point is, why is my kid acting like that? For the 2yo, i know why. He's 2. My 5yo is more of a mystery at the moment.

I define discipline as 'teaching' as someone mentioned in this post. Teaching by modelling, and explaining, and setting 'natural' limits. In other words, there is a natural limit of being considerate of others if we are to live in a community. I suppose i have a different concept of what the concept of 'limits' really means. For eg, gravity is a limit, and we all have to deal with it. Night and day are limits. Time passes. Limits are everywhere.

Just me thinking out loud here.

This passing saturday, i had the same problem. My 5yo was getting overly excited and making silly noises. I took him out 3 times. Even did a crab walk (in case its a sensory issue). He promised to behave, I took my 2yo out completely. The thing is, they dont really care. It didnt work for long. We could go home, that would take another hour , and we' just spent an hour getting there. Fun. They wouldnt care, and it wouldnt work. It would be a waste of time and energy.

Then along came my 5yo's friend. Guess what? It worked like magic, no more silly behaviour. He was so happy to see her.

I went to a different floor in the building with 2yo, while my friend watched my 5yo.

I know what the problem is now, he needs his friends near him. He is a total extravert. He is so excited, but if his friends arent there, he has nowhere to put his energy.

So now what i am going to do, is ensure that his friend/s will be there. If not, we dont go.

I want to add that before the service we met with some people, the girl is mean to my son, and excludes him. The father is fantastic, and we were talking. The girl in the meantime, kept ignoring my son who was trying to engage with her. His reaction? Get sillier.

When his actual friend came along, his need for friendship and community was met.

His behavior after that, like a miracle, transformed.

Its all about community for me, and i guess it is for my son too.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I disagree that the solution to your son's behavior is the presence of a friend.. But let's say it is. Does this mean you're going to structure you whole life around finding a peer for him to be with when you are in public places where a certain level of appropriate behavior is expected from a child? Are you going to invite a friend along when you need to wait in a doctor's office or go to the grocery store? Will you have to contact a friend for him when you expect to be in line at the post office or to any public gathering? Do you see how exhausting and impractical this would be? Do you see that it would teach him nothing?

It's much easier than you're making it out to be. The reason your 5yo behaves like this is not a mystery. It really is a discipline issue.Taking him out and telling him what you expect isn't working. So you need to find another disciplinary strategy. People have offered much advice to you. Something like what NellieKatz tried seems like it would work with your child. Best of luck.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> In thinking about this, ive begun to realize its not really about discipline. Taking them out, telling them what i expect, etc, works more like a bandaid, and its effect doesnt last. The point is, why is my kid acting like that? For the 2yo, i know why. He's 2. My 5yo is more of a mystery at the moment.
> 
> I define discipline as 'teaching' as someone mentioned in this post. Teaching by modelling, and explaining, and setting 'natural' limits. In other words, there is a natural limit of being considerate of others if we are to live in a community. I suppose i have a different concept of what the concept of 'limits' really means. For eg, gravity is a limit, and we all have to deal with it. Night and day are limits. Time passes. Limits are everywhere.


I don't really get this. How is it not a discipline issue? If what you're doing isn't working, you need to try something else - nothing works instantly.

And yeah, taking them out and telling them what you expect doesn't work if you do it multiple times in the same day - when pp talk about doing that (I think) they mean Go Home. What I would do is take a misbehaving child out and say, "We're going to sit out here for a few minutes until you calm down. When we go back in these are my expectations: (insert appropriate expectations here). If you follow my expectations, then we will stay until (insert time), 2 more hours. If you don't, then we will be going home since today is not a good day to be out." And then follow through.

Teaching by modeling is great, but kids need some more structure I think.

2 year olds CAN be taught how to behave in an age-appropriate manner. My expectations of my 22mo when we are out is that there is no hitting, kicking, biting, running away from me, pulling hair (mostly physical things). If he hits someone, or kicks, or bites someone, we go home. We started that at about 15months I think - worked like a charm, he doesn't do that anymore. On the rare occasion that he does, if we can leave we leave. If not, then he goes in the stroller until we can, or until he calms down.

The 5yo - I don't know how thats a mystery? If you lay out expectations and they don't get followed there is a consequence. Not going anywhere unless there will be a friend there doesn't teach him how to behave, it teaches him that if his friends aren't going to be there you won't go. I'm not sure how that would teach him how to behave - what happens when you have to go somewhere that his friends won't be at? Then what happens? It's OK for him to misbehave as long as his friends aren't there?


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> 5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.


So he's allowed to misbehave until his friend show's up? Or you won't show up until you know his friend is already there?

That method still won't teach him how to behave properly in that particular setting.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Maybe he needs to be taught how to engage people without silliness so he can MAKE a friend, wherever he is, and get his need for community met?


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

And what, exactly, are you going to do in a few years? Raising kids is like raising a really big dog...if it is cute when it is a puppy, you let it get away with blue murder: up on the furniture, jumping up, mouthing, barking, pulling on the leash. Fast forward to 150 lbs, and now the dog knocks you down. Well......

You can get rid of a puppy, but not your kids. Appropriate social behaviour now will provide limits for when they are teenaged and you WANT those limits. Kids raised with firm consequences and limits while younger are a delight when they're older: you can treat them like adults and respect their decisions. Otherwise, not so much. I do realize that enforcing limits on kids is boring, annoying, and deprives you of doing something that you wanted to do, but you ARE the adult. Suck it up and get it over with.

It isn't gender related. My son was the least of all of my daredevils, while my girls took me to the ER so much they knew me by name.......


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by contactmaya
> 
> 5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.


If having a friend present helps, that is one tool in your toolbox. Bringing a friend along, or meeting a friend, can be a great way to keep parent and child happy!

But, as others are saying, you won't always be able to control if a friend will be there, and it limits your options if this is your only tool. Why not try some of the suggestions others have given in order to broaden your toolbox, and open up more opportunities for you and your son?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I think hanging around for another 5 year old to come and make your son behave is short sighted as best. You really need to step up here and be the parent.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> 5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.


If he's acting up because he is excited to be there and see his friends. Make it clear to him that if he behaves inappropriately then you will leave, and stick to it. Neither you nor your son can expect to rely on friends to keep him in line for the rest of his life. Teachers, store managers, and police aren't going to accept "but my friends aren't here to help me integrate" as a valid defense.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.
I dont have any fear whatsoever that my child will end up with police involvement down the line.

I am trying to find the cause of his behavior and have found it. its pretty easy to make sure his friend will be there, and not bother, or go elsewhere, if the friend isnt coming. Why would i put him in a situation where he is unhappy, and then fight to control him?

Ive tried the advice on this board, and it doesnt work, The reason it doesnt work, is because it dont believe anymore that its an issue of discipline or of bounday testing. (i wasnt sure it was before either, but came to this board to discuss it, thinking we would have more in common in our approach-for eg, looking at needs first. There are cases where my kids test boundaries, and there is a difference.

For whatever reason, the kid isnt happy in this setting, and i dont know why. I believe its because he wants friends., And is alittle bit intimidated by all the parents and kids together. Without the parents he is fine. In smaller groups settings he is fine.

And im sorry, but its normal for a child to be silly with friends. The girl i mentioned is a bully, and has never once been kind or said hello to my child.But without provocation can be very mean.

Anyway, i dont want advice about discipline. I would be grateful for anyone who can offer insight into a situation like this, that doesnt involve making the child wrong and bad. (and me wrong and bad).

l repeat myelf again though-taking him out of the room, or home, wouldnt change a thing. He has to care about it, and i dont hink he would.

btw, there is a picture on the front page of this website, to the effect that 'children are not dogs to be trained'. I agree with that. Some people here dont seem to.

Also, the aspect of community is the first priority, if my son's friends are not there, there is no community for him. I just dont want to be in a place like that.

Being silly is not why he doesnt have friends. (ill look into that theory............not)

People come and go, friends come and go, cliques form, and there are a few bullies (kids exlcuding, ignoring, name calling) These things happen. I dont know why......

....im not sure im in a conversation here really, but using this board to think out loud, trying not to get hurt by some of the responses.

At a party yesterday, my boy was relatively quiet. The others were goofy. I couldnt understand why he was quiet-he said he was 'tired'. Im afraid he is not making friends. its breaking my heart. At his shul, his friends have gone, and his goofy behavior has started. Maybe he's bored.

If i really believed the issue was that he wanted more boundaries from me, then i'd provide that. I just think there's more to this. So far, things have worked fine without me being heavy handed. I still think the heavy handedness is just a bandaid (unless i was convinced that 'that' is what he was trying to get from me because he craved boundaries)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> l repeat myelf again though-taking him out of the room, or home, wouldnt change a thing. He has to care about it, and i dont hink he would.


 Taking him out of the room isn't IMO to teach him anything. It's just to respect the other people in the room. If he isn't there, he can't disturb other people. I honestly don't think this is about his behaivor, it's more about you as the parent removing him when his behavior is inappropriate for the location, just as you'd remove yourself if you were coughing very loudly and couldn't get it under control. You don't remove yourself to teach yourself not to cough. You remove yourself so other people can hear what's going on instead of your coughing.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.


I have to ask if you are reading the responses? Everyone here has experienced this. Every single poster has explained issues they have had in stores and church and libraries and parks. I think what you are really surprised at is that no one is agreeing with you on how you are handling the discipline issues you are having.

And it is a discipline issue. That is not to say that discipline issues don't have roots in feelings-no one is saying that either and I think most of us understand that feelings and emotions are huge factors in how our children (or ourselves!!) are acting at any one moment.

However, when you are in a place where your son's behavior impacts others, then that place is not the time to wonder about why he is behaving the way he is. That is the time for removing him, reminding him about what is expected, and then going home if he can't succeed at that particular moment. If you read my post, we have issues at the library. Our issues stem from sheer joy at being around all those books. That doesn't mean he can scream though. And in order for him to continue to enjoy the library, I did him a favor by leaving when he couldn't control himself. Now we go to the library and we get to stay. And you know what? That is a consequence too-a consequence of polite behavior. Consequences can be good-it isn't always a negative.

The goal is to set expectations to set him up to succeed-and by setting him up to succeed I set him up to have fun and do something he loves-go to the library.

I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here.

Gentle discipline is a journey and a particular path we follow as parents-it is not a destination. And good parents take into consideration their children's temperments and needs and work within GD to find solutions that are fair and respectful of everyone involved.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. *I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.*
> I dont have any fear whatsoever that my child will end up with police involvement down the line.


Really? I posted up-thread that I HAVE experienced misbehavior by my child when we're out in public. It's happened - but there are limits as to what I will put up with, and I make clear what my expectations are.

I think that b/c you don't like the responses, you are choosing to ignore what we are telling you. Thats fine, I'll exit the conversation now, since you aren't reading what I've posted, and aren't looking for advice.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

The previous poster said "I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here."

I think it could be because the tone has been pretty harsh in recent posts. For example, when I read someone say "step up and be the parent," I cringed....obviously the OP wants to do whatever's right to do as the parent in this situation, but the tone of that had the feel of thwacking her on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper! (dog training analogy, there) And I saw several answers that were less-than-respectful to her.

She probably feels lectured.

I can actually identify pretty strongly with what she is saying because, even though my own very long post was all about the "teaching him appropriate behavior" end of it, I very MUCH care about the causes of the behavior too. His feelings. Because IF I am out someplace and I *ONLY* address the behavior/appropriateness side of it and ignore the causes or the feelings underneath the behavior (whether it be his age, or sensory issues, or feeling left out, or not knowing how to make friends, etc.) then I miss an opportunity to help my son in that setting (or avoid that setting, when possible, till he's better able to control his behavior there), to connect with him, to understand him, and most importantly of all, to prove to him that it's not just the grownups in the room that matter....HE matters. And so while I am teaching appropriate behavior, I am going to be conscious of what is going on in his head. I will ASK him about his feelings. Maybe he needs my help channeling them. It matters. In the store example that I gave, my son was wretched that day when 5 people complained about his behavior, yes...and I addressed that. But I also remember that he was EXHAUSTED that day (up late, up early) and had dark circles under his eyes. A factor for sure. I also know he prizes his independence, and his ability to keep occupied while he's in the store (walking around, he used to pretend to be a spy looking at other kids & shoppers). So I want to acknowledge that. I mean, for ME, shopping is interesting and important because it's my job to feed the family, but he is a person too....why wouldn't it be important that he find the shopping experience interesting too.....in his own way of course. Unless the attitude is, "too bad; he's a kid & he needs to obey." Great. Of course he has to behave appropriately but he is also a human being whose feelings are as worthy as mine.

I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.

I don't know...I just felt like the OP was getting a little beat up on so I wanted to chime in.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.


Maybe I didn't express that part of my post very well. I absolutely think the root cause of the behavior is critical. Just not at the immediate moment necessarily. That is way I used my library experience-I knew WHY my son was screaming, but it didn't change the fact that at that moment screaming was not ok.

Quote:


> can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.


My son was biting other children. It was such a hard time in our lives. And he was biting because he wasn't able to verbalize his frustration. And we hovered over him and reminded him to use his words because we did know that the biting was frustration and not necessarily anger or aggression. We sympathized with him and helped him learn better choices. But in the heat of the moment he needed to be removed.

That is the point I was trying to make. Feelings and emotions are valid, but sometimes the choice we make in expressing those feelings and emotions isn't.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Ive tried the advice on this board, and it doesnt work,
> 
> ...


I still haven't taken the time to figure out multiple quotes from one person on the new system, so I've just pulled what I wanted to comment on. First, I don't think that the distraction/prevention method works for all children. I have been through times when I've read what was written here and realized that most of the standard GD advice just doesn't work for my son. My dd is much easier to get, but my son has been challenging. So when people say things like, "I said it, and it was. My kids knew to accept it," that's great for some children. It doesn't work for all, so you may be right that much of what is being said does not jive with what works for your son.

Second, your son sounds like he's probably an introvert. Some types of introverts tend to become wild & silly when they're overwhelmed. My son is this way, and yes, we've had to learn what places don't work for him. Library story time, for example, never, ever worked. It still is a struggle for him at school, though he loves books. He's interested. He's engaged. The people & noise overwhelm him, and his reaction tends to be to go a little crazy, rather than to retreat into himself the way most introverts do.

Please don't feel like you or your son are bad people. You're not. It's all a learning curve. My mother-in-law is fond of saying that they had my husband (kid #4) because they thought they'd figured parenting out. He pushed & tested & generally caused mayhem regardless of what they tried. On the upside, he's tenacious & successful as an adult, but I'm sure he was a terror as a child. It sounds like you just need to get a handle on what works, but it's not a reflection on you or your son as people.

FWIW, there are 3 kids in my son's kindergarten class who cannot sit still. Their teacher works around making it so that they can move but the other kids can learn. I think the important thing is not to interrupt and disrespect other people's desire to have an enjoyable time. The three of you can figure out how to make things work as you go, but in the meantime, you may have to cut back on the things - or at least alter the type of things - you're going to.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

This makes me giggle. The roots of dog training are reinforcement and repetition, and most dogs are trained using positive reinforcement. I've never smacked a dog with a rolled-up newspaper....what would that teach it? To be afraid of newsprint? That's silly. What I do is set up situations where the dog will do what I want---eliciting or shaping behaviour---and then reward the desired behaviour. If I am teaching the pup to, for example---behave in a restaurant, she's a service/therapy dog---I find a place where she can sit under the table and there isn;t a lot going on. Then, I repeatedly reinforce that quiet behaviour. If she gets up, I say--no, sit---and when she sits, I reward her.

Now what in the dickens is so wrong with using a modified version of this with kids? I want kid to enjoy going out and to behave so they can go out. I set up a place with low expectations and reinforce and reward good behaviour: Honey, you are playing so nicely, we can stay longer if you'd like. Honey, since you were so good at the store, we can go to the zoo tomorrow........but if the desired behaviour doesn't happen, I have to lower my threshold and shape smaller bits: Thank you for saying hello nicely........etc.

If the child is pitching a fit---I differentiate between fit-pitching and a tantrum, actually---I remove myself, thus removing reinforcement, and reward at the first signs of desired behaviour, i.e. quiet. Not punitive, not mean, and very clear-cut. Most people benefit from knowing what is expected of them in a given situation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> She probably feels lectured.


I have to confess that I probably shouldn't even have posted here, because I wasn't feeling very helpful or sympathetic towards the OP. Perhaps other people felt the same way I did - that her initial post came off very "I'm a much better parent than all these other people, so I don't understand why my children don't behave - I guess it's because they scare their kids into obedience and I don't". She may not have meant it that way, but that's how it came across. She probably does feel lectured...but I felt (and I don't think I'm alone, but I can't speak for other posters) as though she was attacking every parents whose children do behave. There was - and to some extent, it's remained throughout the thread - a strong hint of "their children behave because they scare them into it".


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic*
> 
> This makes me giggle. The roots of dog training are reinforcement and repetition, and most dogs are trained using positive reinforcement. I've never smacked a dog with a rolled-up newspaper....what would that teach it? To be afraid of newsprint? That's silly. What I do is set up situations where the dog will do what I want---eliciting or shaping behaviour---and then reward the desired behaviour. If I am teaching the pup to, for example---behave in a restaurant, she's a service/therapy dog---I find a place where she can sit under the table and there isn;t a lot going on. Then, I repeatedly reinforce that quiet behaviour. If she gets up, I say--no, sit---and when she sits, I reward her.
> 
> ...


Hmm....you bring up REALLY good points!!! I like it.

One question though, how do you differentiate between fit-pitching and a tantrum? Is it the age of the child (that was the first thing that came to mind - I could be WAY off base!)?? I'm just curious, b/c it sounds like you have a good method going on, and I'm curious to learn more


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.


 I understand that you're not feeling listened to. It probably does feel like people are lecturing you. I'm sorry about that. What you've seen here is a range of the types of strategies that GD parents employ. I would, however, encourage you to re-read the posts when you've had time to think some more. I've extracted a lot of posts below. Many people posted that their children were like this. The solutions differed, but the one theme that was clear: clear expectations, clear boundaries, and appropriate consequences consistently enforced. There's the most debate about what 'appropriate' consequences are.

I would then say that if you do those things and that your children still misbehave, then you need to look at other causes: Is there something wrong with the situation? Are you not being consistent? Is it possible that your child has special needs (sensory, learning or other) that aren't addressed and so they can't apply what they know?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *terra-pip*
> 
> I have wondered the same thing about my kids. My two boys 7 and 3 just seem insane in public and at other peoples houses---sometimes at home too. Not always but a good part of the time.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> A couple of weeks ago we were at the library and my son started screaming for joy at a book.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> My son is 22mo, but he's not clingy either. He's COMPLETELY fearless.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> One thing I want to mention is that your impression of your own kids vs. others' kids may be a bit off. I say this because I have a 21-month old who I feel like is 'all over the place', 'never listens', 'inappropriate' (i.e. not sharing, too loud, getting aggressive) etc.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> It sounds like your kids do what many kids naturally do. The difference is in parental response to those things.
> 
> My kids are not naturally restrained either.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
> However, I think kids that age do want to run wild and free and will disrupt naturally, consensual living or not, because they don't have the experience or history of learning to read/interpret/respond to social cues. Five year olds being silly during the children's time at a service are par for the course in every place of worship I've been to (it often gets a chuckle and delights the worshipers too).


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> We do sometimes "banish" a child, especially ds2, but it's not framed as a punishment. It's more of a "you need to calm down, and can't seem to do that here" or a "you're being very disruptive, and if you want to jump up and down and scream, you're going to have to do it somewhere else" thing.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reezley*
> 
> My boys seem like the type yours are - always on the go, have to try out every corner of the room, trying sneak off and do the thing they're not allowed to do. I believe some kids really just are more of a handful! My younger is the mellower one, but the two of them together can be trying.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> If you do not want to leave--you feel it's too harsh--then "calming down in the car" is a good one. I have two girls that are just... well they do seem normal compared to the other kids I know, but from what I read on here, we run in wild circles, LOL!
> 
> ...


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> If it gives you comfort, we have all been there (see bolded part). Sometimes a parent can feel extremely alone in a situation where his/her child is acting out and everyone else's kids seem to be doing fine. I have had a tough time with this myself.


 Quote:



> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> Some kids get energized by the extra stimulation of being out in public. Sometimes it's because they're extroverts and it gives them energy. Sometimes because it's sensory overload and they're not very good at regulating that. One thing that you might try (sorry, maybe it's been suggested - I did skim) is to give them a lot of large motor physical exercise to get the energy out before going someplace that might expect somewhat more mellow behavior.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ssh*
> Having a high energy and outgoing toddler can be exhausting for a young child's parents, but being high energy and outgoing can help a person be a socially successful and productive person. Some of the other high energy outgoing preschoolers and toddlers just don't go to places where they can't behave appropriately. My 5 year old DD took a year long break from restaurants, indoor kids groups (like library story time) and most shopping when she was around two. She just was just too busy to be safe or behave appropriately at some places. We also started going to parks that had fences or were surrounded by very large fields.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> Uh, I experience it all the time (with GIRLS! OMG! LOL).
> 
> ...


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> , i let her run. When she got about a quarter of a mile from us (it's the city green, so plenty big enough to let her run) he began to twitch gently round the edges and i said "so, you see?" and he said "Oh my!" and i sprinted after her and brought her back. My eldest was a very HN baby, and a is a very spirited child. She is very intelligent and precocious. About 80% of the time she really CAN work stuff out for herself, but she thinks it's 100% so fairly often i am having to force her to stop something or reconsider or whatever.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AirMiami*
> 
> My daughter is exactly like your son.


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> (this turned out to be a horrifically long answer, but it's a story of how I dealt with this situation, with success. so if anyone's looking for ideas....)
> 
> I used to ask the OP's question all the time. My DS, now 7 (will be 8 in a few months) has always been "different." (We are eclectic homeschoolers tending toward unschooling). He is creative, very physical, amazingly verbal, easily "set off" by loud sounds, chaotic settings, certain music, or physical "attacks" (i.e. aggressive play or behaviors) from other kids. Needless to say we've had our times where I thought "wow, I really wish I could get my kid to be 'well behaved' like other people's kids". He doesn't fear authority in the least. (frankly, I think this will serve him well if anyone tries to manipulate or harm him in the coming years)


 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
> 
> Appropriate control changes with the age and development of the child. My 3 yo needs a LOT more active communication about, and enforcement of rules than my 9 yo.


 Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Carma*
> 
> Didn't read everything yet. Our kids are 5 and 3 (+ a 6 month old baby). When our kids are loud and wild in public, it is usually because they are tired or hungry.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

One of the things that has struck me is that you are starting to narrow down the 'problem'. Your 5 year old seems to have problems in temple when he's trying to get the attention of a child who's not interested in interacting with him and is somewhat of a bully. In addition, "all his friends have gone" at shul. It sounds to me that he doesn't have a community right now (except one child?) and that he's desperately seeking more. His unmet need, then, is social interaction.

What he lacks, it appears, is knowledge and effective strategies for how to engage other children. He may also lack skills in determining when to walk away because a child has given him clues that s/he is not interested. That's not surprising for a 5 year old. But it does give you a place to start. How can you teach him skills to get his needs met that don't involve him being silly? Being silly is a good strategy in some cases. All 5-6 year olds I know bond over being silly. However, it's not appropriate in all cases. How can you help him learn the appropriate cases? How can you help him learn an alternative behavior that gets his needs met?

The other thing that I'd think about is: How can you get your needs for community met when your children's behavior is such that leaving is the best option? I have a partner to help me take up that slack. You don't. I sense that part of your frustration is that you don't want to leave. Very understandable. So if your need is to stay, what else can you do? Can you recruit some helpers at temple? Is there a teenager who would love to have an excuse to hang out with kids ? Our nursery recruits older elementary and middle school kids to play in the nursery. Win-win for everyone. Is something like that possible?


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

BTW, the rolled-up newspaper analogy had nothing to do with the discussion...it was the way it felt to ME when some people spoke to the OP. Like they were scolding her.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mamazee* 

Taking him out of the room isn't IMO to teach him anything. It's just to respect the other people in the room. If he isn't there, he can't disturb other people. I honestly don't think this is about his behaivor, it's more about you as the parent removing him when his behavior is inappropriate for the location, just as you'd remove yourself if you were coughing very loudly and couldn't get it under control. You don't remove yourself to teach yourself not to cough. You remove yourself so other people can hear what's going on instead of your coughing.

Yes, yes, and a million times, yes.

I'm sure, 100% sure, that my 18-month-old isn't going to learn a darn tooting thing if I ask her to leave a play place if, say, she hits. At least... not the first ten or twenty times. She *might* start getting the picture after a month or two of repetition, but the impulse control, the empathy, the logic, it's just not there yet. Even my four-year-old will not appear to care at the time. She will just insist she go back in. Well, no. I would say about four months ago, that would have been here. It is FINALLY beginning to sink in, however, it should be very clear that removing myself or my children is not about a punishment. It is simply what is done, and yes, kids will learn that eventually, but we have to do it, regardless.

*However!*

*I understand that you may feel that your leaving is really too harsh a punishment for YOU at that point.*

And again, if you see in my posts, that is my problem, too. I have to go to the post office at times, and I can't just leave and come back a gazillion times. And when they know that they are in control--that there are no real consequences for their behavior--they do *exactly* what you describe your children doing.

For me, this is aggravating and usually I do tell them later that I'm really not in the mood for going straight to the park as I don't feel like being in public with them, which is true. We calm down and I ask them for an apology. We might go to the park later if I feel they have calmed down. But ultimately it's a five to ten minute trip so I feel it's not a huge deal. When they are older, I can bribe them.

I think LynnS has a lot of good stuff to say about this.

And I do understand what you mean by having tried everything... and being at your wits' end. Maybe that is what you feel other parents have not experienced? Believe me, we have! But if we were presently at that point I guess we would not be posting answers, would we? So take all of this as advice from people who truly have been there. Or at least... from some of us. LOL!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> The previous poster said "I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here."
> 
> ...


Nelliekatz, thankyou for understanding. Its amazing how people can misunderstand each other. For eg, i did explain that i dont feel judgmental of other parents whose kids behave,(in my first post) i am just trying to understand. How is that bad? But i offended people obviously, and even after i have explained, it doesnt make any difference.

There have been some helpful posts on this thread, and nellieklatz, and oakttreemama, yours came to mind. I appreciate it.

I have listened and even tried some of the advice on this forum, but dont see it necessarily working, even if it did for you.

I dont want to get defensive here, just want to thank those for trying to help and for trying to understand.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Try to keep in mind that nothing will work the first, second or even third times - especially if its a new thing. It needs to be done repeatedly, especially when setting limits is a new thing (like with a 5yo - they have learned that there aren't any, so when you set them it takes longer and more repetition for them to understand that you are serious). Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just takes more time, and more repetition.

It may feel like it doesn't work at first, particularly if you only go to this specific place once/week (or even twice/week) - since you just posted this thread a few days ago right? Then again, not all methods work for all children, so you have to find what works for yours - but it won't be some magical solution, it will take time for your children to unlearn habits just like it takes time for anyone to unlearn habits they want to change.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

SSM, I think the OP has already tried these methods, like, before she posted, probably for months or even years, and they weren't working for her, and she's having a hard time seeing how/why they are working for other people.

And the answer is probably temperament, and also, OP, I forgot to mention... I'm not sure how many other kids were in that class, but let's say ten. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they all happened to be easier to discipline than your kids. Being in the more difficult 5 - 20% is not unheard of. So you may see more kids like yours as time goes on.

If not, PM me and I'll let you know the next time we go to the post office or I try to run in and buy just one thing at the store because it's something we REALLY need like, THAT DAY. I'll let you know our coordinates. You are free to watch on Google Earth as mayhem ensues. You might even be able to hear it from outer space, LOL!


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I can totally relate to your frustration OP. I had many difficult times when my LOs were that age and younger. I have had those thoughts as well. My children did not stay calmly by my side. They were mostly struggly by my side with lots of attention from me to keep them within the boundaries including stopping them from leaving my side and leaving when that could not be managed gracefully and quietly enough. My children did not follow their parents' example for behavior nor the examples of the other children that seemed on some level simply to be in tune with the expectations of the environment.

I had strategies that could influence my children's behavior (many mentioned here and many that you've tried as well), and I usually could predict what I was facing when considering an outing with children in tow. I weighed things out before I decided to go. Could I face what I knew was likely to happen? Would "preparations" for appropriate behavior likely be effective? How many interventions could I manage? How much of expected problems would I tolerate? Did I have an exit plan? Did I have the energy for it all? Would I be able to enjoy myself? Etc. I had to be honest about what environments I could function in with my children, and choose not to be where we couldn't be comfortable. For something important to me, I might give up temporarily and try again a few months later or plan to attend with fewer of my children with me.

Probably the reason you are not seeing other children act like yours is that those moms decided to stay home. The ones who have an easy time going out do so often, while those who have a difficult time are rarely seen.

I agree with PPs that mentioned temperament as well. Some kids get overstimulated very easily or have tons of restless energy that they will only gradually learn to manage themselves. But while they are learning, things are rough. There is nothing necessarily wrong with your children or your parenting and it sucks if you compare yourself with others. Especially when it looks like it is easy for them. I have one delightfully easy child, one moderately easy child, and two intensely difficult children including one with an ASD. If all my children were like my two easier ones then you would have been looking at us. But they're not all like that and no parenting choices could have made them so. They do all grow up. A 2yo in church services is hit and miss--a few might be able to handle it. But when your LO is 4yo things will be different, and better. And time really does pass quickly.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Fit-pitching vs tantrum: It can have something to do with the age of the child---toddlers melt-down because of lack of verbal skills. I don't expect a kid without a whole lot of expressive language to tell me what is wrong, and I do expect them to scream in frustration. Wouldn't you? They are truly out of control, and in general oblivious to what is going on around them until they wear themselves out a bit.

But a child with language is expected to use their words, not fling things around and throw themselves on the floor. If you watch, there is an element of deliberation in the fit-pitching. If you remove the audience, the kid will often follow said audience into another area. They are capable of self-control in other areas of their lives---good at school, carrying on at home for example--which tells me that they can turn it off and on.

Lots of dog people with joking talk about click/treat as a method of kid training, but it actually is a very functional way--using a verbal marker--of teaching kids what you expect. The point of the verbal marker is that you tell the kid PRECISELY what behaviour it is that you like....(click) at the precise time they do it, and offer a reward (praise, i.e treat) so that they know what it is that you want. Setting a child up for success is far more functional than punishing kids for bad behaviour....for one thing, punishment tends to extinquish desire to experiment or "offer" new behaviours, rather "immoblizing" the kid and diminishing their coping ability.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My older dd still had tantrums where she was not control and there was nothing deliberate when she was very verbal. Verbal skills take care of some tantrums, but not all for all kids, Some kids are very intense and keep having them after becoming verbal, in some cases for years after becoming verbal.

And she did outgrow them without rewards or punishment, and is now a delightful almost-9-year-old.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

The problem is, precocious verbal skills do not mean a child has emotional development beyond that of the typical toddler or preschooler. I think a lot of parents ::::raising hand::::: sometimes expect too much from small children who are early communicators. That alone can lead to frustration and meltdowns.

As for turning it on and off--yes, that is true, and it can be a sign that the parent is doing something right! It shows the child is learning rules and the beginnings of self control. Of course the child will "let it all out" with the parent, because that is a "safe" situation. The problem is---WHY does the child have so much to "let out"? What have they been bottling up? Do they need help with coping skills? Is there a problem that needs to be resolved? Investigation is necessary.

BUT--in the mean time, the child needs to know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior regardless of how they are feeling in the moment. Children need to know that some things are absolutely unacceptable. They also need to be taught how to appropriately express and deal with their negative feelings.

Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic* 



> But a child with language is expected to use their words, not fling things around and throw themselves on the floor. If you watch, there is an element of deliberation in the fit-pitching. If you remove the audience, the kid will often follow said audience into another area. They are capable of self-control in other areas of their lives---good at school, carrying on at home for example--which tells me that they can turn it off and on.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
> 
> As for turning it on and off--yes, that is true, and it can be a sign that the parent is doing something right! It shows the child is learning rules and the beginnings of self control. Of course the child will "let it all out" with the parent, because that is a "safe" situation. The problem is---WHY does the child have so much to "let out"? What have they been bottling up? Do they need help with coping skills? Is there a problem that needs to be resolved? Investigation is necessary. *I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it. That is the kid's problem. * *Also, they carry on at home because they can. Pitching fits at school only gets them ridicule. Pitching fits at home gets them a flustered, upset and sympathetic mom. Carrying on at church gets them mama fussing over them, when it ought to get them a swift trip to the lobby to consider the effect of their behaviour on someone else.*
> 
> ...


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## delfin (Jul 11, 2007)

fuzzylogic....i'm sure you are a very good dog trainner. But kids are not dogs. And I consider teaching how to deal with negative emotions a very big part of being a parent.

I'm going to leave it at that. I really find your posts shoking, on many levels.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> *I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it. That is the kid's problem. *


I really disagree with this. Young children often need our help to learn to control their emotions. Even if what we are doing isn't helping in the immediate moment (i.e. a temper tantrum in church means we leave now and help later) we as parents should be trying to figure out what the triggers are and help our child navigate them.

As kids get older they can start to learn how to control their emotions on their own, and how to resolve conflict without resorting to meltdowns. But younger children need to know that we are there for them.

This idea that it is the kid's problem puts way too much of a burden on a young child. I am guiding my son through life right now-I let him make choices sometimes so he is starting to learn how to act in polite company but I also know he still needs my help in many areas to be successful.

It is a delicate balance for sure but I certainly believe I own part of the problem solving with my child.

I don't feel like I am explaining my objections very well. But boy this comment really created a dissonance in what I believe young children need.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

The kid's problem? That perspective seems to lack understanding and empathy.

So, if the child is stressed because of problems at home or school, they should deal with that alone? If the child is anxious, scared, or bullied, that is their problem to solve alone? Kind of harsh if you ask me.

Speaking from my own experience, my child's inappropriate acting out stopped when consistent discipline was combined with treatment for her anxiety. When years of consistent discipline failed to fix the problem, we knew it was time to look for some outside help. I generally think that is a good guideline for parents: if traditional methods of discipline are not working for your child, and your child's behavior prevents your child from doing things that peers can do (holding your child back from opportunities and experiences), it is time to seek some outside help.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I kind of agree with FuzzyLogic, and I don't think she's saying that its not her problem at all. Yes, we are here to teach our children how to act in certain situations, with clear expectations and boundaries. While we can help our children learn how to handle their emotions, and give them the tools with which to do so, we can't actually solve the problem - the child has to do that themselves. Some of it we can do, sure - we can provide an emotionally/physically safe place for our children to express their emotions, we can feed them, bath them, help with homework and model problem solving with our friends/spouses/parents/kids, but when our children have a problem there will, eventually, be little we can do to actually solve it. While they are young (0-3 or 4 maybe, haven't gotten there yet!), we can largely solve the problems they face - hunger, thirst, needing cuddles, etc. When they reach school age and start having problems with friends, or problems with teachers - we can guide them, and we can help talk to teachers and parents, but the problem itself will likely be largely up to the child to solve.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I havent read all of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and especially those with experience of consesual living.
> 
> My kids probably are a little more daring than others, because they havent learned fear. This isnt a criticism of other people, or of anyone on this board, so please dont take it as such. On top of that, they probably have personality types that make disruptive bahviour more likely, but they are great in a playground. Being boys, also makes this more likely. (girls can be like this too, but from what i have observed, its less common)


I have 3 kids...1 with autism who had absolutely no fear of anything. As a toddler/preschooler, he was so into his own world that he didn't even really notice anything around him, so he didn't really have a fear of it. He also had no concept that other people didn't find his public outburts/tantrums/meltdowns/screeching cute or funny or appropriate. I also have a preschooler with reactive attachment disorder. She ONLY feared people. Nothing else. She once ran onto a busy city street (we obviously almost killed ourselves trying to catch her. We weren't purposely letting her run...she had gotten out of our grip and bolted into the street). She also threw full blown RAGES. In public, at home, wherever. And now I have a perfectly typical, but spunky toddler. So, I've pretty much run the gamut of types of kids. I think I "get" all of them...from absolutely fearless, to completely uninhibited, to perfectly typical.

That being said, they are able to go to church without being disruptive, I can take all 3 of them all by myself to stores or the library without a single problem. I have taken them to safaris and zoos without other people having to feel like my kids are ruining their experience. My children behave in public 90% of the time they are in public. They are not scared of me, nor my husband. I don't beat them into submission, take away their curiousity (these are now some of the most curious active kids around and LOVE spending their days exploring indoors and out), they are not screamed at or spanked or grounded. All of those things you said in your OP that "well behaved" kids must have had done to them is not true.

However, they do get LIMITS. They need to learn to function in society, and it's my job as a parent to do it. It is usually *not* very fun for me...I've had to spend an entire Catholic mass outside under an awning in the rain with a tantruming child because she couldn't stop screaming at mass because she was upset over something. It's not the other worshipper's job to put up with my kids...it's *my* job to remove them. I've had to leave a shopping cart full of merchandise at the store and take the tantruming child outside to chill out so people don't have to listen to him screaming in the store. I've had to take the kids home from the playground 15 minutes after getting there because they were unable to handle it on that particular day. I also reward good behavior--if they are being good at the park or zoo, I will let them stay a little longer than we had planned, for example. If they are quiet at mass, I might let them color or play with a special toy I brought with me. Stuff like that. My kids are fully aware of what is appropriate behavior in public because not only do I model it, but I will remove them from the situation until they are better able to be in it (sometimes it's for 5 minutes, sometimes it's for several days). I reinforce the behaviors that are acceptable. And, if something is so inappropriate, they will be disciplined. Disciplining isn't always spanking...many things have natural consequences. And for those that do not have acceptable natural consequences (for example, when DD bolted onto a busy street during rush hour...obviously the natural consequence is too horrible to allow), I change the situation so that it can't happen again. For several months after DD bolted, she was required to have a harness on her or be carried any time we were close to a street--no more just holding hands until she could demonstrate appropriate behavior.

Another thing that makes it appear that my kids are so well behaved (when in actuality, they're just normal rambunctious kids) is that I carefully plan each part of the outing. If I have a bolter, I will make sure to park the car in such a way that her seat is the one closes to the sidewalk, so that I can carry her straight to her seat while still standing next to the other child on the sidewalk (or I will set the bolter in the front seat for a few minutes while I get everyone else in their seats). I don't leave the house without appropriate snacks and fresh new toys they haven't seen in awhile. I plan outings for the least crowded times of the day and least crowded days of the week to minimize the risk of overstimulation to the kids and minimize the number of other people that might have to witness rowdy kids (LOL!). I sit in the cry room with all of the children if it's looking like the older kids aren't handeling mass well that day. I sit closest to the door otherwise, so that if the kid gets fussy, I can remove her before it escalates. I make sure they get a lot of active play before going somewhere where they would have to sit still for an extended period of time. I don't take them to the store before meals. Stuff like that goes a long way.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
> 
> The problem is, precocious verbal skills do not mean a child has emotional development beyond that of the typical toddler or preschooler. I think a lot of parents ::::raising hand::::: sometimes expect too much from small children who are early communicators. That alone can lead to frustration and meltdowns.


I know I've had trouble with this one. I found it much easier to maintain an appropriate level of expectations with ds2 than with dd1 or ds1. DS2 took a long time to become verbal, whereas the older two were both verbally precocious. Since they could use the words, I kept thinking they could handle everything that lay under the words. It was pretty hard on all of us sometimes.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> My older dd still had tantrums where she was not control and there was nothing deliberate when she was very verbal. Verbal skills take care of some tantrums, but not all for all kids, Some kids are very intense and keep having them after becoming verbal, in some cases for years after becoming verbal.
> 
> And she did outgrow them without rewards or punishment, and is now a delightful almost-9-year-old.


THis is spot on. My son was very verbal quite early, but had meltdowns from 3 to 4.5 pretty regularly.

You can have all the words in the world, but when you get overloaded with sensory information you can't process, you still flip out.

You could *see* DS lose control, and one symptom was that he'd get "stuck" on one saying sometime, and you could watch the ability to be rational just -- leave his brain.

It was not manipulative, he was not conscious of it coming on, and it was not something he was enjoying or controlling. He could not be jollied out of it, bribed or joked past it.

Eventually, with help and coaching, he learned ways to regain his self control and maintain it. He's got coping skills for the underlying issues now.

With my dd, I got to see the difference -- the lying on the ground screaming, but watching me for my reaction, and modulating her response based on where I was physically in relation to her and whether I was responding or not. With her, I could say "I'm sorry you're disappointed, but X can't happen right now. Would you like to do Y or Z instead, and maybe later we can do X?" And she'd pause and think and (usually) say "Oh, okay!"

With DD, I understood all the people on the GD forum who tell parents of melter-downers "Oh, just explain it all to them and they'll get it." And I also understood the total difference between what DD was doing -- which could be reasoned with -- and what DS was doing -- which was out of his control or reasoning.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

The child does not want to be there and the parent does. It is not consenual living when the only person making the decisions is the 2 yr old. I still stand by my belief that at 2 yrs old, the child should be allowed to stay in a nursery if need be. As far as simply leaving but never speaking to the child about it, the child will never learn. How is he to even know why you are leaving? And what are you going to do when the child is 15 and does not want to go to school? What if he is 3 and wants to run in the street? What if he is caught shoplifting at 12 yrs old? I still stand by my opinion that a child needs a parent. Children should not be left to raise themselves. If you do not correct your child now, society will eventually. Eventually, someone will tell him no, he will have to follow rules and laws and if he won't, there wil be consequences, everything from no friends to prison time.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking.


It does take a lot more work. Which is what we're telling this mom. DO THE WORK. Not random plans like depending on some 5 year old to show up and magically inspire him to behave.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Friend shows up, and my 5yo behaves-its not magic, its logical. My 5yo feels more integrated with a friend there and has somewhere to focus his excitable energy. My observation of this is part of what i consider responsible and competent parenting.

5yo wants to be there, i have asked him many times.

Thankyou pp for the comment that apsiring to live consesually is hard work. Im not abdicating my parenting responsibilities because i think deeply about issues, and have doubts, because i second guess myself, or see the complexity in issues, especially parenting. Wow, thats one complicated subject.

I havent following this thread in detail because i dont have time, but have noticed alot of really helpfup posts, some critical of me, and some more understanding, but i intend to read them all in more detail and think about them more.

In the meantime, i am thinking more and more about what discipline really is, and loving all the more how i choose not to engage in power struggles with my kids as much as is possible. Its not always possible. I do notice that children go through phases and they grow out of it. Maybe 5yo will just grow out of it.

Maybe i am comparing my kids to others too much, and that is a mistake as one pp pointed out.

Maybe overstimulus is an issue and it will never change, and i will never be able to take my 5yo to a place with too many people without some sort of reaction.

Only time will tell. And

i wonder if i did engage is some sort of significant consequence with the intent of changing behaviour (a consequence other than explaining why its not ok to bother other people, and leaving room or building), whether the behaviorial change was just coincidental to maturity.


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## blackbird2 (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi - I haven't read the whole thread, just the initial post and a few after. Just wanted to offer a hug. Sometimes I feel the same way, but other people's kids have their moments too. And a prohibited playground in front of a 2yr old? that just sounds like a bad situation. It sounds like you're committed to parenting in a thoughtful way and having a period of self-doubt. You'll figure it out.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks  I have to admit the prohibitive playground is a recipe for disaster. The service takes place in a preschool, but kids arent allowed to touch toys...not so easy for a 2yo.

The other place i described where kids were allowed to touch toys made it alot easier....


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> The service takes place in a preschool, but kids arent allowed to touch toys...not so easy for a 2yo.


OK this was NOT clear in any of your previous posts!!!! Unless I missed it! I don't understand how on earth ANY kid would be expected to stay calm & behaved when surrounded by fun things they aren't allowed to touch! That seems crazy to me! Is there another service somewhere else that you could try? Our church doesn't have toys or anything, the kids sit quietly, which I think would be much easier if there are not toys all over the place. This kind of boggles my mind... why why why would they have the service in the preschool unless they were going to let the kids take advantage of the equipment there?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Uhh.....YEAH THAT! What the heck? they can't play with the toys? I mean, if the organization that does the service doesn't own them, it kinda makes sense, but seriously my 22mo ds would NEVER be able to keep his hands to himself in that kind of place.

I would find a new place to participate in the service.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking.


I think it depends on whether the parents live truly consensually -- in that the "Consent" is not only between parent and child, but between everyone involved. So it's not always enough if parent and child are okay with child's actions, if the other people involved don't agree. If Mom and Child agree that Child can ride a bike at the park, but the bike belongs to an unrelated child, who has not consented to have her bike taken, then it isn't enough for Mom to say "CHild and I agreed that he'd ride for 15 minutes and then we'd go home." Mom needs to get Unrelated Child's consent, too.

Having read a few posts from people who were not teaching their children that people outside of the family *also* get to consent to things, I think *those* kids may the ones being interviewed on TV in a few years telling the reporter "Oh, I saw the girl scouts with their money. I wanted money. I took it. Everyone likes money!" It seems like sometimes the takeaway message of the fact that Consensual Living is portrayed as a Disciplinary Style rather than a whole-life philosophy is that people don't see that it's not just about the immediate family.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Savithny, thanks for pointing that out. As for me, the respect i accord my children stems from my attitude to people in general.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I
> 
> ...


I think it could be a little of this and a little of that.

I never hit, spank, yell. But my kids know to respect me and act in a manner appropriate for their age and their surroundings or they face consequences.

Kids need to know that their actions have consequences.

I'm all for natrual consequences, but I also ensure that they have consequences that are appropriate for the offense.

I'm 5 foot 2 and 118 lbs. And my 6 foot tall son will immediately do as I ask. So you dont need to be intimidating to be listened to.

What do you expect of your sons? What are your goals? What are your rules?


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Sometimes you NEED to have hard and fast rules.

I am not going to negotiate with my kid about running out in the road, talking to stranger etc....

Life has rules and kids need to know and understand that or they are going to be unable to deal with adult life.

DO they go to school yet?


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

OP - I would reflect on why you feel it is important to go to a place of worship. In an earlier post you say that the primary purpose is for community for your child. I suppose then that your 5yo having a friend is the answer. For me, going to a place of worship is about worshipping. Therefore, helping my children enter into worshipping is what I am working towards.

I think also that kids are capable of respectful behavior at earlier ages than I have read about being expected in the on CL book I read. I think that if you did assert boundaries your 5yo could likely mature quite quickly into them, because most 5yos are very capable of understanding and living within particular boundaries.

Tjej


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Worship is equally important to community. They are two essential ingredients. Yep, i used to go for worship before i had kids, funny that. Now im really the babysitter.

The worship is tailored for children, thus, children's services. I do set boundaries. That isnt the issue here. The question is, whether the way i set them is adequate, and how far i go to set those boundaries. Thats the question of discipline and how one goes about it.

To beenmum, 5yo is in school.

I dont use rules as such, but principles and values. For eg. it is important to be considerate of others. making loud noises inside is inconsiderate to others.

I think children are capable of understanding that.

Btw, last week things went well. One person who i felt had been judgmental, was overwhelmingly kind all of the sudden. There were less people there, that probably helped too.


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## fnpmama (Nov 10, 2010)

OP - I don't have advice, and can't tell you a story about my well behaved children. But, I am reading this thread closely for ideas as I struggle with behavior issues with my boys (though my boys are a bit younger). I just wanted to send hugs and empathize with your exhaustion when trying to keep 2 sometimes defiant boys well behaved, and also the confusion one can feel when your friends, colleauges etc. children seem like angels and you are trying to figure things out.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OP I can totally sympathize. I've been trying to figure out why my almost two year old dd is so much more difficult and active than all her peers. Other children seem to go in slow motion compared to my dd. Then it suddenly dawned me.....other adults seem to be in slow motion compared to me! I am incredibly high energy myself( well at least I used to be before dd was born lol). I went on a huge family reunion recently and I realized that my entire family is louder, more active and generally more curious than 90% of the people I know. I'm the sort of person that can overwhelm introverts. When I was a kid my mother was always wondering why her children wouldn't sit quietly. She was a very strict mom btw, but we were little monkeys! As an adult, however, I think being a high energy person is a really great thing. I don't get tired easily at all. Also all my siblings and I are musicians, and let me tell you that being fearless is really helpful when you have to stand up in front of a couple thousand people and sing an opera, or play violin. I've never even been slightly nervous on stage, and I can rehearse for hours without getting tired etc. Just sayin....


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks for the hugs and commiseration fnpmamma. And scottishmama, i think you may be onto something. I remember family reununions too, and we do tend to be louder and somehow more noticeable than other people.(and quite a few musicians int he mix as well) This is equally true for my father's generation, and they received a very strict upbringing.Complete opposite to myself and my own children.

Im reading a book now-discipline without stress-written by attachment parenting leaders.

Ill be more specific when i get the time, But there is a very interesting formula there which is very helpful fro me in thinking this through....


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