# If you weren't praised as a child



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

How did/do you feel about it?

Were your parents involved and supportive?

Did your parents give positive feedback and encouragement?


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I grew up in the home of no praise or with the idea that my persoanl success should be reward enough.. My parents were involved and overall supportive however the lack of ANY praise caused me huge issues to question everything I do and to really wonder if I was ever good enough. If I asked for an opnion on something I was always met with how do I feel are YOU happy ect comments which made me question every thought and doubt my abilities. I alos got comments like wow you sure used lots of red or that looks like you spent hours creating type comments which paired with there never saying "Good" made me think gee so I guess I used too much red or maybe should have done more and maybe I spent too much time or not enough...
To this day I don't take most compliment well. It feels weird and fake to me and thats not a good thing. I alos have my own self doubts on many things my opnions feels are never enough for me because I overly question my own thoughts and opnions.
My parents especially my mom now has a totally diffrent outlook and she wishes she could go back and redo that part of our childhood.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I grew up with praise, but two different kinds. My dad used manipulative praise, praising what he thought was admirable and the characteristics and skills (especially skills) that he wanted us to develop. This was really hard, it's exactly the kind of praise that I think anti-praisers rail against. He would even exaggerate things we had done when he told other people, and it wasn't because he was bragging about us, but to send us a message of how we should be. It put a lot of pressure on me, and my sisters felt the same way. I've never talked to my brother about it, because he's using the same technique with his kids.

Anyway, my mom was much, much better at praising. She told us "good job", and it always made me feel good, which is one quibble I have with the UP/no praise. She homeschooled us and she had a way of putting the praise squarely in our laps, and it always made me feel proud of myself and capable. I'm guessing that's because she was encouraging, and she was more like a cheerleader for our accomplishments, instead of trying to subtly influence us to do the things she wanted like my dad was. Plus, she was direct, whereas my dad was not. You always had to guess what my dad wanted, but my mom would tell you.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I wasn't praised, except in a sarcastic way. "Thanks for FINALLY doing xyz. Maybe you aren't useless. I guess we shall see if you do xyz next."

I grew up being a very negative person and not knowing when people were seriously telling me I was doing a good job or just being sarcastic. I still have issues b/c of it.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I grew up in the home of no praise or with the idea that my persoanl success should be reward enough.. My parents were involved and overall supportive however the lack of ANY praise caused me huge issues to question everything I do and to really wonder if I was ever good enough. If I asked for an opnion on something I was always met with how do I feel are YOU happy ect comments which made me question every thought and doubt my abilities. I alos got comments like wow you sure used lots of red or that looks like you spent hours creating type comments which paired with there never saying "Good" made me think gee so I guess I used too much red or maybe should have done more and maybe I spent too much time or not enough...
To this day I don't take most compliment well. It feels weird and fake to me and thats not a good thing. I alos have my own self doubts on many things my opnions feels are never enough for me because I overly question my own thoughts and opnions.
My parents especially my mom now has a totally diffrent outlook and she wishes she could go back and redo that part of our childhood.


i'll just quote you b/c i could have written your post....

i have issues with constantly, thoughtlessly praising children, but i also feel the same about no praise at all. i think everyone is different and need different types of feedback...


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## lil_earthmomma (Dec 29, 2006)

I grew up in a home with very little praise and it has had a detrimental effect on me. I believe that praise is an important part of childhood, as children are looking for validation and guidence in everything they do. Praise should NOT be manipulative or mindless, but thoughtful and caring.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove* 
i'll just quote you b/c i could have written your post....

i have issues with constantly, thoughtlessly praising children, but i also feel the same about no praise at all. i think everyone is different and need different types of feedback...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I grew up in the home of no praise or with the idea that my persoanl success should be reward enough.. My parents were involved and overall supportive however the lack of ANY praise caused me huge issues to question everything I do and to really wonder if I was ever good enough. If I asked for an opnion on something I was always met with how do I feel are YOU happy ect comments which made me question every thought and doubt my abilities. I alos got comments like wow you sure used lots of red or that looks like you spent hours creating type comments which paired with there never saying "Good" made me think gee so I guess I used too much red or maybe should have done more and maybe I spent too much time or not enough...
To this day I don't take most compliment well. It feels weird and fake to me and thats not a good thing. I alos have my own self doubts on many things my opnions feels are never enough for me because I overly question my own thoughts and opnions.
My parents especially my mom now has a totally diffrent outlook and she wishes she could go back and redo that part of our childhood.

My parents were lovely and supportive, but Dad especially was very Dutch Calvinist about praise - it should be rarely used and never effusively, and only when earned by something incredibly out of the ordinary.

My parents naturally gravitated toward the Kohn end of the scale, with more of the "what do you like about it?" "You used red, didn't you?" "Tell me what YOU think?"

I agree with the others. My life experience makes me disagree pretty strongly with Kohn. You don't have to Good Job kids to death, running life on a reward system taht makes all motivation extrinsic surely can be a problem -- but there is nothing wrong with judicious praising. I try not to overpraise, but when my child achieves something big for him/her, we celebrate together and I let the kid know I'm excited for them.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh my! This tread makes me feel good. I know that rearing my family without praise would just not feel natural for me. If I'm excited about something, I'm going to let it be known and I don't see any harm in it. Insincere praise is bad, but when my child works really hard at something and succeeds, I'm going to tell or show him I'm impressed.


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## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

This is interesting. We've been going with no praise so far and I think it has been find so far. Ds is only 21 months. Basically, we've avoiding the meaningless "good job" phrases. He isn't old enough yet to do a lot of things. He is a very happy kid.

But reading this is making me second guess no praise in the home at all as kids grow up. I'd never heard from actual grownups who have grown up this way. Sounds like none of you liked it and it was actually detrimental! Yikes!

Maybe we'll just stear clear of meaningless praise and use meaningful descriptive praise when something has really made a child proud?

Gosh....now I'm confused.







:


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
This is interesting. We've been going with no praise so far and I think it has been find so far. Ds is only 21 months. Basically, we've avoiding the meaningless "good job" phrases. He isn't old enough yet to do a lot of things. He is a very happy kid.

But reading this is making me second guess no praise in the home at all as kids grow up. I'd never heard from actual grownups who have grown up this way. Sounds like none of you liked it and it was actually detrimental! Yikes!

Maybe we'll just stear clear of meaningless praise and use meaningful descriptive praise when something has really made a child proud?

Gosh....now I'm confused.







:

I agree that this has been surprising to hear but _so_ useful and helpful and it really makes a lot of sense. This is why I go through phases of tossing the books and trusting my instincts. I think Kohn goes too far but it does speak to the overuse of "good job" that sometimes comes out of parents' mouths at almost every turn. It does become meaningless then.

I love this thread and thank all of you for sharing your experiences about this. I came from a home without much praise at all except when I was lying in bed with my severely depressed mother and she was clinging to me for her emotional survival...not so good. So I have nothing much to offer in this regard that would be helpful but what everyone else has said makes so much sense. Sometimes when a kiddo makes a picture, they want their mama to say "wow, that's beautiful!" instead of "you used a lot of red!". It just doesn't quite have the same ring, does it?


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Maybe we'll just stear clear of meaningless praise and use meaningful descriptive praise when something has really made a child proud?
Meaningless praise I think is just as bad as no praise. Kids are smart you start spoiuting off a gushy OMG thats sooo amazing at every turn they will close up and regard you as that wacky mom who gushes over air.








However even the occasional simple "good job" can go along ways to reinforce there own confidence. Remember kids are still learning there seeing how they fit how society (as in the world they live in) accepts them whats right and wrong how to address others how to work things out for them selfs how to form friendships stay no to temptation and all sorts of things. Each age deals with these to some degree. As parents we help mold these mildstones were NOT looking at creating stepford children only aiming to do what pleases us at the same time though they look up to us they seek our approval and use that opnion to learn and form there own way and beliefs. No matter how withdrawn or independent parents play a HUGE role.
Soo we use consructive praise. I will reinforce my childs excitiment.
Did you see me mama I did it I did it did you see??
Yes honey I saw and look your soo hapy you have such a huge smile I bet you feel very happy inside do you feel happy inside?
I will point out effort and thank her..
Honey I was upstairs and I just saw your room and how you made your bed. You did a great job with it and that was a very nice thing of you to do.
I will even find the good and reward it..
Cecilia we've been working on you not saying I want and saying may I instead and you have been doing such a great job doing it I thought it been fun if we celebrate and go get an icecream cone at Mc Donalds after dinner
All these things when used appropiatly and especially in a family that practices GD where "bad" isn't in the picture all can reinforce and bbuild character.
What I wont do it be sappy about it use bribes set up for failure or instill a belief that somethign is bad is we don't praise each thing.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
My parents were lovely and supportive, but Dad especially was very Dutch Calvinist about praise - it should be rarely used and never effusively, and only when earned by something incredibly out of the ordinary.

My parents naturally gravitated toward the Kohn end of the scale, with more of the "what do you like about it?" "You used red, didn't you?" "Tell me what YOU think?"

I agree with the others. My life experience makes me disagree pretty strongly with Kohn. You don't have to Good Job kids to death, running life on a reward system taht makes all motivation extrinsic surely can be a problem -- but there is nothing wrong with judicious praising. I try not to overpraise, but when my child achieves something big for him/her, we celebrate together and I let the kid know I'm excited for them.

my parents never knew of kohn, but had very little praise, and I was constantly looking for acceptance or validation for stuff I did, I just wanted to hear "thats great!!" when I got straight A's.

I disagree with kohns approach and a house with little to no praise feels extremely unnatural for our family.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I agree that this has been surprising to hear but _so_ useful and helpful and it really makes a lot of sense. This is why I go through phases of tossing the books and trusting my instincts. I think Kohn goes too far but it does speak to the overuse of "good job" that sometimes comes out of parents' mouths at almost every turn. It does become meaningless then.

I agree and I think thats who Kohn is essentially speaking too. I re-read the last few chapters last night and have come to this conclusion - that he is not saying 'to praise, ever'. He is saying 'what how your child reacts to the praise or expects the praise and go from there'. I think from reading discussions online that there has been a very big misperception about what he is saying.

The 2nd poster nailed my DH right on the head. Exact same situation - no praise, own rewards, and now never being able to take a compliment without it seeming unnatural or fake. In addition, he is 35 and still craves their approval or pleasing - yet never gets it - not even when he announced our pregnancy.


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## BensMamacita (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
This is interesting. We've been going with no praise so far and I think it has been find so far. Ds is only 21 months. Basically, we've avoiding the meaningless "good job" phrases. He isn't old enough yet to do a lot of things. He is a very happy kid.

But reading this is making me second guess no praise in the home at all as kids grow up. I'd never heard from actual grownups who have grown up this way. Sounds like none of you liked it and it was actually detrimental! Yikes!

Maybe we'll just stear clear of meaningless praise and use meaningful descriptive praise when something has really made a child proud?

Gosh....now I'm confused.







:

Trust your instincts. If you are excited over something that your dc does, express that. Express what comes naturally to you. I have never felt comfortable with the Kohn model - reading these personal accounts has just reinforced it for me.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
I agree with the others. My life experience makes me disagree pretty strongly with Kohn. You don't have to Good Job kids to death, running life on a reward system taht makes all motivation extrinsic surely can be a problem -- but there is nothing wrong with judicious praising. I try not to overpraise, but when my child achieves something big for him/her, we celebrate together and I let the kid know I'm excited for them.

Same here. My parents didn't praise me -- I had no idea, for example, that my mother thought I was any good at art when I was a kid until I was about 35, when she suddenly presented me with a framed watercolor I'd done when I was in elementary school. While I did feel that I was loved, I didn't feel that any of my accomplishments were valued, which I found demoralizing.

I will say that I feel this upbringing contributed to my strength and independence of thought as an adult. However, I really think there has to be a better way, and I think it's not very authentic to stop yourself from expressing delight and joy at your child's achievements.


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## bettysmom (Jul 28, 2007)

My mother seemed to only praise near perfection, and even then, she would look for flaws. "You got an A-. Why wasn't it an A+?" She also pulled me out of anything I couldn't immediately do perfectly, such as saying, when I was 7, "Why don't we stop ballet lessons? Dance is just not your strong suit" or something like that. Maybe she meant well -- every kid excels at different things, etc. -- but it hurt. Badly. So now I'm a perfectionist and I never want to try anything unless I know I can do it perfectly. With my DD, I don't "good job" every little thing, but when there are particular successes that seem important to her, I do celebrate them with her. I could never go the Kohn route. I'm thrilled when 2-year-old DD echoes me in a pep talk or in celebration, saying, "I feel so PWOUD!"


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

I wasn't often praised in the traditional sense. They told me specific things like they were proud of how well I did on a test or something, but I didn't get a lot of "good jobs." When I was a kid, it kind of peeved me. I'd whine for recognition... "did you see how well I did in the game?" "did you know I got an A"? And they'd acknowledge it in a way that I knew that they were proud of me for just existing and they'd be no less proud if I got a B than an A. As a kid, I wanted the "good jobs" but now I'm glad I didn't hear it all the time. I'm very internally motivated and I don't beat myself up if I come in second place if I know I did my best, you know? I wish I could articulate it better than that, because I think they did a great job with that aspect of my upbringing. They totally supported me but also let me know that my achievements weren't why they loved me at all.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I remember feeling like I always caught crap when I goofed up but wasn't recognized for doing well.

I remember mentioning it and being told that they shouldn't have to say anything to get me to do what I was supposed to be doing anyway.

I try to recognize my kids' achievements and strong points (and especially improvements!) without being embarrassing or condescending. Kind of the Faber-Maslich version of praise.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklefairy* 
I remember feeling like I always caught crap when I goofed up but wasn't recognized for doing well.

I remember mentioning it and being told that they *shouldn't have to say anything to get me to do what I was supposed to be doing anyway*.

thats exactly what my dad would say!


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bettysmom* 
My mother seemed to only praise near perfection, and even then, she would look for flaws. "You got an A-. Why wasn't it an A+?" She also pulled me out of anything I couldn't immediately do perfectly, such as saying, when I was 7, "Why don't we stop ballet lessons? Dance is just not your strong suit" or something like that. Maybe she meant well -- every kid excels at different things, etc. -- but it hurt. Badly. So now I'm a perfectionist and I never want to try anything unless I know I can do it perfectly. With my DD, I don't "good job" every little thing, but when there are particular successes that seem important to her, I do celebrate them with her. I could never go the Kohn route. I'm thrilled when 2-year-old DD echoes me in a pep talk or in celebration, saying, "I feel so PWOUD!"


This is my dad exactly.

It kind of made my brother and me into perfectionists. Actually my brother struggles a LOT with failure, and has quit probably over 10 jobs now. I'm lucky because I've been with DH since I was 18, and he's very encouraging, but my brother has not been so lucky.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Interesting thread. Those of you who weren't praised, and feel bad about it - did your parents show a lot of love and affection that wasn't based on what you did? Did you know they loved you and thought you were terrific, but you wished they would also recognize your big efforts and achievements? Or did you feel you needed praise as evidence that they loved and valued you?


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I always knew and kno that my dad loves/ed me, even though hes not a hugger etc, my mum and me have a close bond and I know both love my no matter what.

It just would have been great to have efforts and acomplishments made a bigger deal of. I worked hard/tryed hard for those things, and just some acknowledgement would have been nice. even a thank you for doing all the housework without being asked etc.


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## terpingmom (Sep 3, 2007)

Thank you to all of you who wrote about your experiences about not being praised. We haven't praised DS (14 months) because we had read Kohn early on. At that time I found it amazing how over-used praise was. "Good job for pooping" was possibly the most ridiculous one I had ever heard. I've been thinking about the no praise idea and wondering how DS will feel about that as he grows up. Thinking back to my experiences growing up I don't think that I was praised often at all. In fact I think I was told that I wasn't living up to my potential (another thread altogether). So I think that praise that isn't meaningless may be the way to go. Recently, DS has been petting the cat and when he is gentle I say, "yes that's gentle" but adding "good" couldn't hurt could it? Gosh parenting is hard! Can kids understand the "good jobs" without understanding what a "bad job" is??


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

I grew up with loving and supportive parents. My upbringing wasn't completetly absent of praise, but it was used sparingly. And I developed an anxiety disorder terrified of anything less than perfect in everything I do. When I did anything, it was evaluated, both achievements and areas for improvement. I never thought anything was good enough, because there is always room for improvement.

I came home in grade five hysterical because I got a B on a project. That, to me, was the end of the world, because the A's I normally got were seen as expected and never an achievement. I saw a B as a failure. My mom reassured me that it wasn't, but I never really believed her. I got basically staight A's from then on, through university, and didn't tell her when I got anything lower. If my best wasn't "good enough" then anything less was shameful.

She never intended this. But that's how my childish brain interpreted it, and I can't say I've moved past that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I personally love what Faber and Mazlish say about praise in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk". There's a whole chapter on it, but in a nutshell they say to avoid praise that evaluates, and instead give "helpful praise", where the adult "describes with appreication what he or she sees or feels. The child, after hearing the description, is then able to praise himself."


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## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

I had a parent who praised me for stuff that she genuinely felt was praise-worthy, and I feel I don't have any lingering praise-related issues as an adult. (That sounds so ridiculous now that I have typed it out!)

But seriously, she didn't hand out "good job" left and right for any little thing, but if I did something genuinely cool, or difficult, or challenging, she definitely praised me for it. It came from a place of honesty, which IMHO is the best you can do as a parent, and it is what I strive for as a parent myself.

Am I going to tell my kid "good job" for drawing a stick figure that he has drawn a million times before? No. But am I going to tell him how impressed I am when he draws a recognizable picture of himself for the first time and even includes the little alligators on his Hawaiian shirt? You bet I am. It would be dishonest of me not to express my genuine appreciation of his work. Again, IMHO.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Interesting thread. Those of you who weren't praised, and feel bad about it - did your parents show a lot of love and affection that wasn't based on what you did? Did you know they loved you and thought you were terrific, but you wished they would also recognize your big efforts and achievements? Or did you feel you needed praise as evidence that they loved and valued you?

For me, the bit below from dealic *really* struck a chord with me:

Quote:

because the A's I normally got were seen as expected and never an achievement.
.

To have things that were truly _work_ be treated as just another thing I did..... made the work that went into them seem less, somehow. And not in a "many hands make light work," kind of way.

You know, when they put the capstone on the great pyramid, and the work crew stood back and looked at it, I'd bet money that the foremen didn't say, "well, it looks like you used limestone on that last course. How do you feel about that?" They probably yelled something about how much Egyptians kicked butt and then led the way out for a lot of beer.

More praise would have made some of the acheivements more exciting. Celebrating an accomplishment is a lot more fun with other people. Sure, its important to have an internal motivation and sense of accomplishment -- but human beings celebrate in *groups*, generally, not alone in little monastic cells (except, I suppose, for monks!).

To their credit, they were dealing with a gifted/talented kid in a small town in the 70s with no support. There was a certain amount of "we want her to be normal and not get a big head."

There's a lot I found out *later* how proud they were of me about. I knew they *were* happy with what I did (content, maybe?), there was never any doubt that they loved me and cared for me and wanted the best for me. I just feel like some of my lifes celebrations wound up... muted. When a different reaction could have ...amplified?... them.


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## bettysmom (Jul 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Interesting thread. Those of you who weren't praised, and feel bad about it - did your parents show a lot of love and affection that wasn't based on what you did? Did you know they loved you and thought you were terrific, but you wished they would also recognize your big efforts and achievements? Or did you feel you needed praise as evidence that they loved and valued you?

Hi, Daffodil -- Every so often, growing up and still today (though less often), it would come up in conversation how my mom seldom praised me. At that point, she would launch into a speech about, "Oh, you KNOW I think you're perfect, you're beautiful, you're blah blah blah." But it went/goes in one ear and out the other, because you know what? I don't know that. If she didn't tell me in small ways day by day, then no, I really didn't have an overarching sense that this was so. Growing up, I really envied kids whose parents were more generous with their praise -- not a "good job" for everything, but more than I got -- and I looked for that kind of validation outside my own family or myself, and continue to.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
To have things that were truly _work_ be treated as just another thing I did..... made the work that went into them seem less, somehow. And not in a "many hands make light work," kind of way.

Yes, that. Friends were complimented on completing grades, or graduating. I once asked my mom why she didn't, and she said that it was expected that I pass, not an accomplishment to be praised.

Quote:

To their credit, they were dealing with a gifted/talented kid in a small town in the 70s with no support. There was a certain amount of "we want her to be normal and not get a big head."
That too, only it was the 80's and 90's.

I am also quite jaded against the education system because they continually decided that because I was so advanced, I didn't need to ever be acknowledged as such. I was never given top mark awards despite having earned the top mark, I never won speech competitions despite having them tell me I was the best (and it was an obvious difference). My entire educational career they told me I didn't need it, I already knew I was good, but other people needed to hear they were good. I never understood why my giftedness precluded me from normal human need to be acknowledged...







:


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## bettysmom (Jul 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dealic* 
My entire educational career they told me I didn't need it, I already knew I was good, but other people needed to hear they were good. I never understood why my giftedness precluded me from normal human need to be acknowledged...







:

In elementary school, my gifted class took place once a week at a different school. My sixth-grade teacher deliberately scheduled a big classroom party for the day of the week when all the kids in the gifted class would be gone. She said we "already had enough fun as it is."







I'll never forget it.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

This is such a helpful thread. Thank you to the OP for starting it!! Here's what I'm getting out of it:

It's much less about the words and much more about the intention toward and attention to the child.

Handing out a "good job" while doing the dishes and not even looking over at one's child is meaningless, obviously. Getting close to your child, looking over their drawing and expressing your pride and happiness in what your child has done is very meaningful.

Someone mentioned something about praising poop and I gotta say it's a pretty exciting day around here when someone learns how to poop in the potty!







So I might be guilty of that ridiculous kind of praise from time to time!


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## renabe (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eurobin* 
I wasn't often praised in the traditional sense. They told me specific things like they were proud of how well I did on a test or something, but I didn't get a lot of "good jobs." When I was a kid, it kind of peeved me. I'd whine for recognition... "did you see how well I did in the game?" "did you know I got an A"? And they'd acknowledge it in a way that I knew that they were proud of me for just existing and they'd be no less proud if I got a B than an A. As a kid, I wanted the "good jobs" but now I'm glad I didn't hear it all the time. I'm very internally motivated and I don't beat myself up if I come in second place if I know I did my best, you know? I wish I could articulate it better than that, because I think they did a great job with that aspect of my upbringing. They totally supported me but also let me know that my achievements weren't why they loved me at all.

I love that-it seems like a crucial part of praising and being excited for your kids-to let them know that you are proud of their effort and happy for their happiness, but that you wouldn't be less proud if the external "accomplishment" (grade, award, winning the game etc.) were a different result. Like what you are proud of is the kid, not the trophy or the grade. This also isn't the best articulated. . .I am pleased you take pride in your homework rather than woopeedoo an A!
Dig?


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bettysmom* 
In elementary school, my gifted class took place once a week at a different school. My sixth-grade teacher deliberately scheduled a big classroom party for the day of the week when all the kids in the gifted class would be gone. She said we "already had enough fun as it is."







I'll never forget it.

Yes, that sounds similar to my experiences.







: I got pulled out of enrichment one year because the teacher wanted me to tutor classmates. He didn't tell me, I just assumed it was canceled. He thought it wasn't important. It was the only thing that kept me going.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I think I'm confused - I don't see how not doing praise means not showing your pride or excitement or joy in something your child does, when it's an authentic feeling. Not saying "good job" and being mindful to not always apply outward judgments doesn't mean never showing approval or acceptance or love or enthusiasm...


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## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I think I'm confused - I don't see how not doing praise means not showing your pride or excitement or joy in something your child does, when it's an authentic feeling. Not saying "good job" and being mindful to not always apply outward judgments doesn't mean never showing approval or acceptance or love or enthusiasm...

Hmm. Well, in that case I think it's just a difference in how we are defining "praise". Because to me, showing your pride/excitement/joy in something your child does, is praise! Am open to different interpretations, of course.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

from merriam webster: praise transitive verb 1 : to express a favorable judgment of : commend 2 : to glorify (a god or saint) especially by the attribution of perfections

praise Function: noun 1 a: an expression of approval : commendation b: worship

Well, by that definition, I think smiling at your child is praise. That doesn't jive with my understanding of it, though. I think at the moment it's like pornography for me - I know it when I see it.







If one is going to use that open an interpretation of "praise", then I think withholding praise is wrong, too. But that isn't what I mean when I say I think praise isn't good. I guess manipulative, insincere, or automatic or routine praise would be a better way of putting it. But that doesn't roll off the tongue (or the fingers).


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## momsadvice (Oct 9, 2007)

It was difficult growing up w/o praising much. I strived to be perfect at everything to please my parents. I was the over achiever with straight A's and AP classes all through school, in all sports, activities, even graduated years before I was supposed to. I find it difficult sometimes to praise my own children but usually it comes out automatic since I have done it so much for so many years. When I was in college is when I finally grew out of caring so much about what others thought I was or wasn't doing whatever at.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I think I'm confused - I don't see how not doing praise means not showing your pride or excitement or joy in something your child does, when it's an authentic feeling. Not saying "good job" and being mindful to not always apply outward judgments doesn't mean never showing approval or acceptance or love or enthusiasm...

I dont know the dynamatics in your home your own reactions to stuff and such. I can say from personal experience every so often I really seriously NEEDED to hear a plain simple Good job.







:


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
If one is going to use that open an interpretation of "praise", then I think withholding praise is wrong, too. But that isn't what I mean when I say I think praise isn't good. I guess manipulative, insincere, or automatic or routine praise would be a better way of putting it. But that doesn't roll off the tongue (or the fingers).









The problem is that when some people hear others say "praise is bad", they don't mentally insert those qualifications. They assume you (general) mean *all* praise is bad.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I also grew up with very little praise, and although my mother was mostly supportive and encouraging, it really did affect me. I did try hard, and work hard, and recieved virtually no praise. The story I tend to tell about this is that my brother did not try for a while there and recieved very poor grades, I did try and got very good grades and we generally recieved the same reaction from my mom. "Are you happy with your grades?" Well, we both were, he didn't care and I did. But I don't think that attitude, in general, served either of us well. And selfishly, it would have been nice to hear once in a while that I did a good job! I don't believe in the over use of praise either, but judicious, meaningful praise, is important to everyone, child and adult, IMO. It is still nice to hear from a superior that they appreciate my hardwork, or from DH that dinner is tasty, KWIM?


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I will have a good read through this in a bit, but before I forget it I just wanted to say that on the perspective that I was praised as a child - With a lot of how we 'parent' our child, I find that there is the 'now and here' way of doing things that only benefi for now and here and the 'forever' way that not only affect now but benefit and individual throughout their lives...the 'forever' way is not always easy but I feel the best way to do things.... So in saying that, back to being praised as a child... I was praised as a child. Adults dont really get praise though. So I find now that I do suffer quite a bit of manic depression and I realised a while ago that its because I am not getting praised ... That sounds odd but its like...I expect it now and feel I didnt do well enough when someone doesnt praise me...but as I said...you never hear adults praising the other! lol If that makes any sense! Which is why I think the 'no praise' things sounds like its not fun or gives a cheery important atmosphere to your child - but I think it does and can pay off in the future as well!


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I wasn't really praised as a child, and when I was it was SO overdone that it felt empty and almost like they were just frantically petting my ego instead of listening ot how I felt about what I'd just done.

I was quite bright as a child, a very early reader, and a gifted student. My parents just figured that was just me, so why praise me for being me...but then they'd gush all over me at totally random times and I remember it made me feel like a freak.

Now...a bit o/t (maybe) - but to the people saying "YES! This is great, this why I don't like the 'kohn model'"...I wonder if you're not misunderstanding what Kohn talks about in terms of praise. He says in his book, that praise in itself is not bad - it's the motivation behind it that should be questioned. He also says that there ARE times when you need to show your pride and enthusiasm for what they've done but that it should never be used in an effort to manipulate our kids into repeating something that WE want them to do.

There are ways to praise without compromising their own internal sense of value for their actions/deeds. He never really says "NEVER EVER PRAISE YOUR CHILDREN EVER!" That's ridiculous. He addresses (in a pretty clear manner I thought) when praise is bad and when it isn't. But I see a lot of people (not just here, but anytime he's being discussed) say "Well praise is good and praise is natural, and I'm not going to not show my child I'm proud of him/her".

Sorry for going off on a tangent...lol


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EvansMomma* 
He says in his book, that praise in itself is not bad - it's the motivation behind it that should be questioned. He also says that there ARE times when you need to show your pride and enthusiasm for what they've done but that it should never be used in an effort to manipulate our kids into repeating something that WE want them to do.

There are ways to praise without compromising their own internal sense of value for their actions/deeds. He never really says "NEVER EVER PRAISE YOUR CHILDREN EVER!" That's ridiculous. He addresses (in a pretty clear manner I thought) when praise is bad and when it isn't. But I see a lot of people (not just here, but anytime he's being discussed) say "Well praise is good and praise is natural, and I'm not going to not show my child I'm proud of him/her".

This is great, I've never read UP, but ITA with the above. I definitely think that manipulative praise is far more damaging than thoughtless, endless "good jobbing", but I don't want to feel restricted from ever telling my children I'm proud of them, impressed with what they did, or sharing their enthusiasm. Which I always though Kohn advocated, so thanks for clearing that up! I guess I ought to break down and read it myself!


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

It's something that has occurred to me, too...I have never heard an adult say "My parents told me 'good job', the fiends" But I have heard plenty of times "My dad never told me he was proud of me...I never felt like they approved of me." I think it speaks to the dangers of putting a Parenting Theory ahead of one's own heart and positive inclinations toward their children.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dealic* 
I grew up with loving and supportive parents. My upbringing wasn't completetly absent of praise, but it was used sparingly. And I developed an anxiety disorder terrified of anything less than perfect in everything I do. When I did anything, it was evaluated, both achievements and areas for improvement. I never thought anything was good enough, because there is always room for improvement.

I came home in grade five hysterical because I got a B on a project. That, to me, was the end of the world, because the A's I normally got were seen as expected and never an achievement. I saw a B as a failure. My mom reassured me that it wasn't, but I never really believed her. I got basically staight A's from then on, through university, and didn't tell her when I got anything lower. If my best wasn't "good enough" then anything less was shameful.

She never intended this. But that's how my childish brain interpreted it, and I can't say I've moved past that.

I could have written much of this post. The only difference is that I didn't get As in college the first time around -- I failed miserably. School was hard for the first time, and I couldn't handle the possibility that I would do something less than perfectly. It was easier not to try. Or I would do all the work, but then fail to turn it in because I was too ashamed that it wouldn't be "right."

It took until my mid-30s to go back to school and get all those As the second time around.

I think as a result of my parents' lack of recognition of my achievements, I became only able to see perfection as a worthwhile goal, and then I became paralyzed by the shame of not being able to achieve it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I've only read the first thread so far, but have a question. There are definitely some posters who seem to have been raised with no praise, Kohn style- who's parents were happy with them regardless of what they did, and gave feedback instead of praise ("you used lots of red" vs. "cool picture!")
Like Octobermom and this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eurobin* 
I wasn't often praised in the traditional sense. They told me specific things like they were proud of how well I did on a test or something, but I didn't get a lot of "good jobs." When I was a kid, it kind of peeved me. I'd whine for recognition... "did you see how well I did in the game?" "did you know I got an A"? And they'd acknowledge it in a way that I knew that they were proud of me for just existing and they'd be no less proud if I got a B than an A. As a kid, I wanted the "good jobs" but now I'm glad I didn't hear it all the time. I'm very internally motivated and I don't beat myself up if I come in second place if I know I did my best, you know? I wish I could articulate it better than that, because I think they did a great job with that aspect of my upbringing. They totally supported me but also let me know that my achievements weren't why they loved me at all.

Thanks for sharing! It seems that it worked out well for you!

But there are some who seem to have quite an un-Kohn nonpraise environment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
My parents were lovely and supportive, but Dad especially was very Dutch Calvinist about praise - it should be rarely used and never effusively, and only when earned by something incredibly out of the ordinary.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *bettysmom* 
My mother seemed to only praise near perfection, and even then, she would look for flaws. "You got an A-. Why wasn't it an A+?"


Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklefairy* 
I remember feeling like I always caught crap when I goofed up but wasn't recognized for doing well.

So, I wonder if positive acknowledgment and unconditional acceptance would have made a bigger difference than praise?

I'm definitely not anti-praise. I say "cool lego tower!" and stuff like that, but try to stay specific and non-manipulative, and focus on how ds feels rather than how I feel about it. I'm just curious about the whole thing.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terpingmom* 
Recently, DS has been petting the cat and when he is gentle I say, "yes that's gentle" but adding "good" couldn't hurt could it? Gosh parenting is hard!

With that type of stuff, I told ds "She really likes it when you pet gently. Look at her tail wagging!" (we had a dog. lol). So I'd tell him how SHE felt about his actions, since she was the one directly affected by his actions, kwim?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I personally love what Faber and Mazlish say about praise in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk". There's a whole chapter on it, but in a nutshell they say to avoid praise that evaluates, and instead give "helpful praise", where the adult "describes with appreication what he or she sees or feels. The child, after hearing the description, is then able to praise himself."

Sounds similar to what Nancy Samalin says (I think both books are based on Haim Ginot's ideas). And like this article:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html
it compares evaluative praise vs. descriptive praise

oh, I just looked, and HTT is one of the references.

I've noticed, too, that AK isn't really anti-praise (he's not CL either, btw). He doesn't really say that some praise is good, but he makes a point of saying that specific non-manipulative praise is most certainly NOT like a "good job" used specifically to get dc to do it again.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
But that isn't what I mean when I say I think praise isn't good. I guess manipulative, insincere, or automatic or routine praise would be a better way of putting it. But that doesn't roll off the tongue (or the fingers).









When I think of praise, I think of it as a value judgement. I'm telling my ds MY judgement of what he did. I'm not leaving it up to him to judge for himself. I really like what Natensarah said, about giving descriptions and letting dc praise themselves. Though, tbh, I can't imagine I'll ever stop saying "That is one neat tower you built!"


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:

It's something that has occurred to me, too...I have never heard an adult say "My parents told me 'good job', the fiends" But I have heard plenty of times "My dad never told me he was proud of me...I never felt like they approved of me." I think it speaks to the dangers of putting a Parenting Theory ahead of one's own heart and positive inclinations toward their children.
Thank you for saying this ccohenou. I'm a psychiatric nurse and I posted something extremely similar to your statement several months ago in a thread about the "danger" of praise: that in my 25+ years of working with psych patients I have never heard one person complain that their parents overpraised them but I've heard many, many pt's complain that their parents did not praise them or notice their achievements.

This is the part of Kohn that never sat well with me. However, as pointed out by several people, it seems to be a misinterpretation of Kohn. (It sort of reminds me of how fundamentalists of any religion takes certain beliefs and interprets them in an extreme way.) ITA that the point to remember is not that ALL praise is bad but that empty meaningless praise is bad.

I also think it depends on the age of the child. The argument against praise that some have posted is that when you praise a child you put YOUR value judgment on the achievement instead of allowing the child to feel some kind of internal/intrinsic sense of satisfaction. I think that can be true when your child has developed a more mature and sophisticated sense of thinking. But I have a toddler and for toddlers and younger children, they look to their parents for validation because that's part of their developmental process. It seems to me to be just downright cruel to never give young children meaningful praise.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I think I'm confused - I don't see how not doing praise means not showing your pride or excitement or joy in something your child does, when it's an authentic feeling. Not saying "good job" and being mindful to not always apply outward judgments doesn't mean never showing approval or acceptance or love or enthusiasm...

I think it depends on how far you take it. I'm not sure Alfie Kohn thinks it is possible to exhibit pride, excitement, or joy in an accomplishment without judging it. Obviously, if you're proud, exited, or happy about an accomplishment, then you must approve of it.

Hence his suggestion to make factual statements or ask questions, thus exhibiting interest in the child's accomplishment without demonstrating approval.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EvansMomma* 
I wonder if you're not misunderstanding what Kohn talks about in terms of praise. He says in his book, that praise in itself is not bad - it's the motivation behind it that should be questioned. He also says that there ARE times when you need to show your pride and enthusiasm for what they've done but that it should never be used in an effort to manipulate our kids into repeating something that WE want them to do.

I read Unconditional Parenting with considerable care, and honestly, that's not what I got out of it at all. It's been a couple of years, but it really seemed to me that he was postulating that it would be best never to praise our children at all.

Sounds like I need to go back and read it again.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
Thank you for saying this ccohenou. I'm a psychiatric nurse and I posted something extremely similar to your statement several months ago in a thread about the "danger" of praise: that in my 25+ years of working with psych patients I have never heard one person complain that their parents overpraised them but I've heard many, many pt's complain that their parents did not praise them or notice their achievements.

Well, I am not a pt patient, but I really did not like praise from my dad. Like I said, it was often manipulative. But, since this thread started, I've been thinking about it a lot more, and I think many times he was just genuinely trying to be kind and supportive and boost my self-esteem. But it was just like they say, it made me feel anxious, guilty, and slightly resentful.

I think it's like anything else that pigeon-holes your child - they'll just be better off altogether if you stay away from those blanket statements, whether it's "You're always so patient" or "You're always so naughty."


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I think there's another aspect to all of this (and parenting in general) that is far more important that the details and semantics of praising our kids - the relationship and the combination of the parent's personality/temperment and the child's personality/temperment.

Perhaps a father who is a bit of an introvert or has a hard time emoting would have a hard time communicating praise in a way that felt good to the child. Or a mother whose perfectionist nature comes through in her praise of her child.

I think all of this is really interesting and helpful, but what I read between the lines of these posts about the past is much more about the overall relationship rather than what words were or weren't used. For me, another thing my mother never did was use terms of endearment. I craved that as a child and I find that I use them all the time with my kids...my oldest sometimes gets annoyed so I then realize that I have to pay attention to that rather than trying to make sure he doesn't feel the same hurt I did about that particular issue. All I'm getting at is that I think we have to be careful about how we interpret the past...I don't think it's all about being praised or not being praised. So much of it is about that combination of personalities in a family. Some combinations just jive better than others.

Sorry to go OT...


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I agree with the posters that said this is one of the issues they have with the Kohn principle of no praise. It doesn't feel right to me to not praise my children and so I do it. On any given day, you will hear me say "Great job!" or "That looks awesome!". My kids LOVE to hear it and they get this huge grin on their face. It feels very unnatural for me not to praise my children and so I will keep doing it!

I know that when I hear "Good Job" from my boss, I feel great! And I have read posts on here that say how people's days have been made by a complete stranger telling them "You are a wonderful parent!". Why should we deprive our kids of that feeling?

I honestly don't remember how much praise my parents gave me so it must have been very little







. But I do know that my dad was extremely proud of me because I would always hear him saying good things about me to his friends. He had a more difficult time saying them to me. My mom really didn't talk much (just her upbringing - she is very quiet, but still a wonderful mom) and I don't recall her praising me too much.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
ITA that the point to remember is not that ALL praise is bad but that empty meaningless praise is bad.

I think this is actually another pretty common misinterpretation of Kohn. We all seem to have our own slightly different interpretations, but mine is that the kind of praise that's especially bad is the kind that makes kids feel their parents love them better when they do the thing they're being praised for. So heartfelt praise could actually be a lot worse than automatic, insincere praise about something a kid can tell his parents don't really care about that much. (Heartfelt praise about a specific thing a child has done, I mean - not general "I love you so much and I'm so glad you're my child" stuff, which I think Kohn is totally in favor of.)


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I dont know the dynamatics in your home your own reactions to stuff and such. I can say from personal experience every so often I really seriously NEEDED to hear a plain simple Good job.







:

Me too. I'm another one that would have loved to have heard "Good Job!" or "I'm proud of you." I could read before I started elementary school. I was asked by my teachers to skip a grade because I was ahead of the other kids. I won awards for my work both in and outside of school. Yet, I rarely heard any praise from my parents who I know loved me. I don't know why they didn't praise. It could be cultural reasons I suppose being that they are from another place but I think it's just their personalities. My grandparents on both sides were far more expressive and generous with praise. Not only did my parents not praise me but they withheld praise/compliments others had said about me because of some misguided idea that it would inflate my ego. I would hear that so-and-so had said something good about me months if not years later! It's a shame they were like this because I was such an introverted child and it would have done me a world of good if my parents could have praised me more. It's no good hashing this out with them now for it will only make them defensive. I can learn from the past and go forward parenting DD in a way that doesn't leave her feeling her parents didn't appreciate her efforts. So while we don't go overboard praising DD but you bet we say "Good job!" and "What a great effort" in our house.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
I think it depends on how far you take it. I'm not sure Alfie Kohn thinks it is possible to exhibit pride, excitement, or joy in an accomplishment without judging it. Obviously, if you're proud, exited, or happy about an accomplishment, then you must approve of it.

Hence his suggestion to make factual statements or ask questions, thus exhibiting interest in the child's accomplishment without demonstrating approval.

But you know what? Being a baby primate is all _about_ seeking approval and figuring out how the world, and the social unit in which you live, works.

Kids start out as infants, using whatever control they have over their bodies to try to affect the world around them, and specifically to get the big primates to react in different ways. They copy facial expressions when they are HOURS old, and they will repeat the expressions that get a smile and a coo in return. Later, they drop things, push limits, touch things they know they shouldn't - to get reactions, to see where the boundaries lie, to find out what happens if they do X or Y or Z. And the world lets them know, with at least some approval or disapproval (even if you gently redirect or renegotiate, the most CL of parents will make it clear they disapprove of hitting, for example).

To respond to everything with a flat affect: "Hey, that's green! Why is the top of it triangular?" is to refuse to engage in the child's quest to figure out How Others Think and See the World - which will ultimately, I think, give them as skewed a picture of the world as it woould if they heard nothing but constant, meaningless, praise of their very existence.


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## catchthewind (Jan 11, 2006)

nak

When I read Kohn's book, a lot of what he said about overpraising really struck a chord with me. I think I got too much and too little, if that makes sense, though really the too much part was mostly me overhearing my mom talking about me to someone and usually exaggerating. It made me feel like I was good only for what she could brag about.

But my parents expected me to do well and didn't think I needed to hear that I had done well. I remember confronting my dad once when all three of my sisters got rewards for improving their grades, but I didn't get anything (not even a good job) for my straight A's. He said he felt I didn't need it. I told him I'm a person with feelings too. I got a B once and my parents assumed the teacher was just a b*tch, and made no secret of that, even when I told them I deserved it. When I worked really hard and brought that grade up to an A, they figured them going to have a chat with the teacher was what did it, not my hard work. They (especially my mom) would also compare me to others or ask why it wasn't better. If my sister brought home an A, my parents would throw a party. If I brought home an A, I got asked why not an A+ or what did so-and-so in your class get? Even though I know she was kidding, I never felt like I could do good enough for her. I ended up never working for my grades once my parents stopped wanting to see my report cards. I didn't do it for me, I only did it for their approval. That got me through high school and first year university, but I didn't do well in later years.

That being said, my sister and I recently had a discussion about this, and she did feel manipulated by the praise she got and at times would have preferred less. I think my parents felt she needed the approval more than me and would sometimes praise her for something she didn't put any real effort into. Personally, I think the amount of praise is a lot less important than the type/quality of praise and the reasons behind it.

ETA: One of the parenting books I have read had an example that I really liked. The author spoke of a mother who got a bumper sticker that said something like: "I am proud of my child who is on the honour roll". She cut off the part that said "who is on the honour roll". That is the kind of message I want to portray to my daughter. From the praise I did get, and what I didn't, I always felt that I made my mom proud for always being top of the class, on the honour roll, etc. I felt (still feel at times) like my mom lived vicariously through my (and my sisters') accomplishments and used them as a measure of her own parenting abilities.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I think there's another aspect to all of this (and parenting in general) that is far more important that the details and semantics of praising our kids - the relationship and the combination of the parent's personality/temperment and the child's personality/temperment.

Perhaps a father who is a bit of an introvert or has a hard time emoting would have a hard time communicating praise in a way that felt good to the child. Or a mother whose perfectionist nature comes through in her praise of her child.

I think all of this is really interesting and helpful, but what I read between the lines of these posts about the past is much more about the overall relationship rather than what words were or weren't used. For me, another thing my mother never did was use terms of endearment. I craved that as a child and I find that I use them all the time with my kids...my oldest sometimes gets annoyed so I then realize that I have to pay attention to that rather than trying to make sure he doesn't feel the same hurt I did about that particular issue. All I'm getting at is that I think we have to be careful about how we interpret the past...I don't think it's all about being praised or not being praised. So much of it is about that combination of personalities in a family. Some combinations just jive better than others.

Sorry to go OT...

I don't think this is OT at all, and is a great point. Every relationship IS different, and as much as we try, we can't always control the ways in which our personalities clash (or mesh) with our children!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I think this is actually another pretty common misinterpretation of Kohn. We all seem to have our own slightly different interpretations, but mine is that the kind of praise that's especially bad is the kind that makes kids feel their parents love them better when they do the thing they're being praised for. So heartfelt praise could actually be a lot worse than automatic, insincere praise about something a kid can tell his parents don't really care about that much. (Heartfelt praise about a specific thing a child has done, I mean - not general "I love you so much and I'm so glad you're my child" stuff, which I think Kohn is totally in favor of.)

I think that heartfelt praise can have a very important role in giving children social cues, though. I like what Becky Bailey says about teaching your children the vocabulary to express the good deeds they do. For example, you would say, "You shared your cookie with your brother. That was generous." This is a simple description of what happened, you're not pigeon-holing your child into "being" generous, but I think that they would infer from your statement that they are capable of being generous. And if they noticed that you were particularly glad and warmed by their sharing, they would learn that generosity is a trait that you greatly admire. Then, they might try to cultivate it in themselves. Isn't that good?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
But you know what? Being a baby primate is all _about_ seeking approval and figuring out how the world, and the social unit in which you live, works.

Kids start out as infants, using whatever control they have over their bodies to try to affect the world around them, and specifically to get the big primates to react in different ways. They copy facial expressions when they are HOURS old, and they will repeat the expressions that get a smile and a coo in return. Later, they drop things, push limits, touch things they know they shouldn't - to get reactions, to see where the boundaries lie, to find out what happens if they do X or Y or Z. And the world lets them know, with at least some approval or disapproval (even if you gently redirect or renegotiate, the most CL of parents will make it clear they disapprove of hitting, for example).

To respond to everything with a flat affect: "Hey, that's green! Why is the top of it triangular?" is to refuse to engage in the child's quest to figure out How Others Think and See the World - which will ultimately, I think, give them as skewed a picture of the world as it woould if they heard nothing but constant, meaningless, praise of their very existence.

Exactly! What I was trying to say earlier, only way better!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

"You shared your cookie with your brother. That was generous."

See, I would say that's what I aim to do _instead_ of praise. (And not with a flat affect - with a pleased tone, if it pleased me.) But I also wouldn't do it all the time. Definitely the first time I saw it, or if he'd been being mean to his (nonexistant







) brother.

I dunno. I gotta get to bed; maybe more later.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
But you know what? Being a baby primate is all _about_ seeking approval and figuring out how the world, and the social unit in which you live, works.

Kids start out as infants, using whatever control they have over their bodies to try to affect the world around them, and specifically to get the big primates to react in different ways. They copy facial expressions when they are HOURS old, and they will repeat the expressions that get a smile and a coo in return. Later, they drop things, push limits, touch things they know they shouldn't - to get reactions, to see where the boundaries lie, to find out what happens if they do X or Y or Z. And the world lets them know, with at least some approval or disapproval (even if you gently redirect or renegotiate, the most CL of parents will make it clear they disapprove of hitting, for example).

To respond to everything with a flat affect: "Hey, that's green! Why is the top of it triangular?" is to refuse to engage in the child's quest to figure out How Others Think and See the World - which will ultimately, I think, give them as skewed a picture of the world as it woould if they heard nothing but constant, meaningless, praise of their very existence.


What a great post and so well said! You know, saying "hey, that's green!" etc. ,etc. to me is very similar to saying "Good job!" while getting down on your kiddo's level and really looking at their picture.

I haven't read Kohn's book but I've read a lot about praise and I think the point is really to avoid the "good job" habit when you're not even really connected to your child or paying attention. I think it's probably reasonable to mix up the good jobs with the a more detailed observation, but I think it doesn't need to be overthought too much.


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## Terrilein (Jan 9, 2007)

I was never praised as a child and never felt like I was up to par. I still don't. To make matters worse, my mother had a habit of comparing my brother with me, trying to create more competition to encourage us to excel even more. I had some pretty heated arguments with my mom when I became a teen - everything along the lines of I'm never good enough, why bother trying? I was a straight A student (I was even valedictorian!) and she had a fit about me pulling a B in one class instead of another A. Drove me nuts. I think it's too bad that even today I still feel like nothing I ever do is good enough.


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## pradiata (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
I'm a psychiatric nurse and I posted something extremely similar to your statement several months ago in a thread about the "danger" of praise: that in my 25+ years of working with psych patients I have never heard one person complain that their parents overpraised them but I've heard many, many pt's complain that their parents did not praise them or notice their achievements.

verde, too bad you never sat in on any of my therapy sessions!!







I wonder if a lot of people don't complain about too much praise because they've been so manipulated (by well-meaning parents) that they might feel guilty about resenting the over-praising. Kind of a co-dependent sort of thing? (my dose of pop-psych for the day!)

There were times when I got such effusive praise, that I just felt really crummy inside, as though I was getting praised so much because I was a real loser and my parents were trying to make me feel better. The things that I was passionate about pursuing were encouraged only as "extra-curricular" things, to be enjoyed once I had excelled in areas that were approved of, and I was praised most heavily for the things I didn't like doing instead of the things I did.

I think there's a big difference between praising someone for what YOU think they did well, and being enouraging and enthusiastic about what THEY are proud to be achieving or attempting. (I certainly wish my efforts had been noticed as well as my achievements.)

One of the best things I have taken away from UP is the idea that the important message in communicating with kids is not what the parents think they're saying, but what the kids are hearing.

For a while now I've been trying to give DS lots of hugs and kisses when we're in disagreement (to put it politely), and also to STOP what I'm doing frequently during the day and really look him in the eyes and listen carefully to what he's saying, and this has been really good for us. For me, I think it's more about the total message I'm trying to give, and to be present and aware, rather than specific words. If I let a "good" or "great" slip in that matters less to me than if my child knows that I really SEE him and love him for who he is, the easy and the challenging and all of it rolled up together.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

My boss JUST knocked on my door to say "hey good job on the XXXX Brief"

So 1) yes adults get praise and 2) yes it is often in the form of 'good job' and not in any way specific"


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

this is all VERY interesting to me....thanks everyone for your perspsectives....

Just wanted to add that looking back, the issue for me was not praise (my mom was a BIG overpraiser and it led to all sorts of problems in our relationship) but that the people I got the best sense of self esteem from were my dad and my nana....and what they had in common was that they gave me a continuous positive regard - even when I did something wrong. Somehow, they both let me know that they still respected me and loved me and just basically valued me. It's not something they put into words - it was just a feeling that kind of shined from them.

The sad irony with my dad was that he *wasn't* able to do that for my brother...it was clear that he basically disapproved of my brother from the get go and nothing my brother did (even though he was praised for winning soccer games or playing his instrument or making an A) was ever quite enough.

there is a jewish story about a rebbi (I forget which) who had "the good eye"...he always chose to saw the best in people. He once invited the town drunk to sit at the head of his shabbas table. When asked why he would do this he responded, "well even though he doesn't attend the synagogue, he has alot to teach us about being who you are authentically" (implying that many people just went to synagogue out of appearance sake not because it was in their heart)....the point being that he saw that EVERYONE had something positive in them and that's what he chose to see.

the book "liberated parents, liberated child" also has a chapter about your role as a parent - it's not to "teach" kids how the world is - it's to be their repository of positive experiences - their biggest cheerleader and a positive reflection of themselves....if your mom doesn't like you, who else ever will?

anyway, that's what I'm thinking about these days - especially after reading all your posts!
peace,
robyn


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I think that heartfelt praise can have a very important role in giving children social cues, though. I like what Becky Bailey says about teaching your children the vocabulary to express the good deeds they do. For example, you would say, "You shared your cookie with your brother. That was generous." This is a simple description of what happened, you're not pigeon-holing your child into "being" generous, but I think that they would infer from your statement that they are capable of being generous. And if they noticed that you were particularly glad and warmed by their sharing, they would learn that generosity is a trait that you greatly admire. Then, they might try to cultivate it in themselves. Isn't that good?

Yeah, but wouldn't it be even better for a child to cultivate generosity, not just because YOU admire it, but because she sees its value herself? And, you know, if she does something generous, it means she already gets that generosity is good. If you bring your admiration into it, you're making it about pleasing you as much as about being kind to other people.

I don't have a problem with commenting on good deeds as a way to give a young child vocabulary and to help him see himself as someone capable of good deeds. But I think with kids who are more than about 4 or 5, even a "neutral" comment about something you observed is likely to feel like a judgment, because they understand that you wouldn't mention it unless it was important to you.

I think there a lot of ways to teach a kid what traits you admire that don't involve praising the kid when she demonstrates those traits. You can show those traits yourself, you can talk about how much you admire them, and why, you can point out examples in books, etc. Of course, the kid is going to become aware that you get warm feelings when she's generous, and I don't think that's so terrible. I think what you want to avoid is having her feel that you only have warm feelings toward her when she's doing good deeds - that she needs to do good deeds to be loved. Praising her for sharing probably isn't such a bad thing, as long as you're also willing to give her extra attention and love sometimes even when she's doing exactly the opposite of what you like.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I really like hippymomma69's post about positive regard.
I grew up with lots of "positive regard" and I was praised a lot, by my grandma- basically for everything I did. lol. It honestly wasn't conditional, though, and that's what I took from it.
Heck, that's the same woman who praised ds over and over for- get ready for this....blowing his nose. lol. I'm talking, every single time for 5 days "wow! You are the BEST nose blower that I've ever seen. I'm going to tell your Aunt how GOOD you are at blowing your nose! That is amazing for a 3yo!"
I don't think my mom overdid praise, but I'm sure she praised.
I think the only negative effect was grades. But I honestly don't see that it had to do with praise, I think it was the grades themselves. I was one of those A students who would always opt for the easiest way to get a good grade, instead of trying something more difficult that I could actually learn from. I'd REFUSE to do something I didn't already know I could do well. I wouldn't even answer questions on tests unless I was positive I'd get it right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I think all of this is really interesting and helpful, but what I read between the lines of these posts about the past is much more about the overall relationship rather than what words were or weren't used.

That's my general feeling with most of the posts, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
"You shared your cookie with your brother. That was generous."

See, I would say that's what I aim to do _instead_ of praise. (And not with a flat affect - with a pleased tone, if it pleased me.) But I also wouldn't do it all the time. Definitely the first time I saw it, or if he'd been being mean to his (nonexistant







) brother.

Honestly, I see the word "generous" as a value judgement. That would put it in the praise camp for me personally. I'm definitely not saying that it's a bad thing to say. I've been trying to avoid those types of evaluations, but I'm starting to think they are perfectly fine. I'm just talking semantics here, really.
Now, if you said "You shared your cookie with your brother. Look how happy he looks now!" THEN I'd say it wasn't praise at all. A very very slight difference. In the first, YOU (general parent) are evaluating dc's actions (I have deemed your actions to be generous. lol).
In the second, you are telling dc how their actions affected brother. So the motivation to share the next time comes from the knowledge of how that action will affect others, not of what mom will think of that action.
Same basic effect though, I'd imagine. I don't see either as harmful- like I said, I'm just arguing semantics.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
To respond to everything with a flat affect: "Hey, that's green! Why is the top of it triangular?" is to refuse to engage in the child's quest to figure out How Others Think and See the World - which will ultimately, I think, give them as skewed a picture of the world as it woould if they heard nothing but constant, meaningless, praise of their very existence.

Quite interesting, and I think I've seen what you mean. I guess I do agree in a sense that kids try to figure out how others see the world.
I think that can be accomplished by saying "I think your painting is neat!" rather than "Good job painting." Both evaluations. But the first...doesn't claim to be the ultimate judge of what is good and what isn't. Just what *I* think.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm sure that my Dad must have praised me occasionally during childhood, although I cannot think of a specific example right now.

Positive reinforcement and acknowledgement would have been more beneficial to me though. It tooks many years to overcome my lack of inadequacy and self-confidence (although that wasn't only related to the topic of this thread)

In relation to my son, I don't 'praise' for the sake of it. I attempt to be mindful and consider what I'm about to say the majority of the time. It IS very easy to say 'good boy', it's a lot harder to fight the urge to do it and it does rely upon being mindful not to do this with him.

I will reinforce him in a positive manner however and acknowledge him in a positive manner too....

Peace


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
my parents never knew of kohn, but had very little praise, and I was constantly looking for acceptance or validation for stuff I did, I just wanted to hear "thats great!!" when I got straight A's.

I disagree with kohns approach and a house with little to no praise feels extremely unnatural for our family.

ITA. My parents also used to tell us "Stop looking for praise!" if we mentioned any acheivement to them.







:

I still have self esteem problems, and seem to need a lot of validation.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:

verde, too bad you never sat in on any of my therapy sessions!! I wonder if a lot of people don't complain about too much praise because they've been so manipulated (by well-meaning parents) that they might feel guilty about resenting the over-praising. Kind of a co-dependent sort of thing? (my dose of pop-psych for the day!)
Pradiata, what you say may be true for some, but as the responses to this thread indicate, it's the LACK of praise that troubled and still trouble so many. My question to you is if the parents were sincerely well-meaning, then were they really manipulative? My experience has been that if people recognize their parents were sincerely well-meaning even if their parents did less-than-perfect things, people realize that (with exceptions of course) and work through it -- but it rarely takes them to the hospital. However, people who feel their parents withheld praise and recognition either thoughtlessly (like neglect) or thoughtfully (sometimes being blatantly cruel) have a longer road to walk in order to work through the effects of that.

Quote:

Yeah, but wouldn't it be even better for a child to cultivate generosity, not just because YOU admire it, but because she sees its value herself? And, you know, if she does something generous, it means she already gets that generosity is good. If you bring your admiration into it, you're making it about pleasing you as much as about being kind to other people.
Daffodil, why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't you praise a child and have her know HERSELF that generosity (or whatever) is valuable AND that it pleases the parents? Why be so picky about the nuances of individual words? Do you think that the outcome can ONLY be one thing -- that the child will respond to please the parent? Do you not think that children are also complex creatures who can integrate more that one concept at a time?

I think children pick up complexities more that we often realize. They do have to go through developmental stages, but by the time they're preschool they can read and interpret a lot of their parents behavior. For example, if one parent is an alcoholic, even four year olds know to avoid the drinker after a certain period of time because the drinker can become violent.

Quote:

So heartfelt praise could actually be a lot worse than automatic, insincere praise about something a kid can tell his parents don't really care about that much. (Heartfelt praise about a specific thing a child has done, I mean - not general "I love you so much and I'm so glad you're my child" stuff, which I think Kohn is totally in favor of.)
Daffodil, I respectfully disagree. As some have responded, they knew as children that some of the praise was empty, meaningless, overblown. I think children and adults glow when they receive heartfelt, sincere praise. For some people it is THE turning point in their lives. I think the desire for praise is part of the human condition. I think we would do better as parents if we try to do praise right instead of trying to avoid it altogether because we fear that we will do it wrong.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I didn't get a lot of praise. And it made me kind of bitter. I was a good kid, I was smart, I was talented at lots of stuff, and it was just kind of like it all went into a vaccuum. Though I got plenty of negativity if I brought home a B or if I didn't do the chores. So that sucked. I don't *think* it was a philosophy with them, though my mom was an educator and a sort of crunchy type (hence the Barbie ban), so maybe...but I'm more inclined to think that they just weren't particularly demonstrative people, and the negativity was easier for them to express. I always knew that I was loved, but I didn't always feel appreciated.

It's only since I have had kids myself that I feel more warmth from my parents--they are very sweet and genuine with the girls, and they do praise them, and it makes them feel good as well as me.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

Wait a minute...some people don't praise their children on purpose??? I must've missed something...is this the new parenting thing these days?


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
It IS very easy to say 'good boy', it's a lot harder to fight the urge to do it and it does rely upon being mindful not to do this with him.

I took "good boy" out of the language that I use completely. This has made life easier and I have to think less about the way I use praise or encouragement. Saying "good boy" or "good girl" labels the person rather than their efforts or talents or skills.

I guess this is one area I stick to pretty much 100% because I don't ever want to think my kiddo isn't good. He is good even if his behavior or choices aren't! I still defer to "good job" a good bit...I try to mix it up with more specifics but I don't really think it does he nor myself a lot of good to overthink it too much. I try to just connect with him and focus on that rather than the semantics.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Yeah, but wouldn't it be even better for a child to cultivate generosity, not just because YOU admire it, but because she sees its value herself? And, you know, if she does something generous, it means she already gets that generosity is good. If you bring your admiration into it, you're making it about pleasing you as much as about being kind to other people..

Well, I guess this begs the question of the roots of altruism. Why are we kind? Doesn't knowing that people would admire you encourage you, if ever so slightly, towards doing kind deeds? Isn't that one thing that makes us feel good about doing charity? The image of ourselves as a kind person that others would find pleasing?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I don't have a problem with commenting on good deeds as a way to give a young child vocabulary and to help him see himself as someone capable of good deeds. But I think with kids who are more than about 4 or 5, even a "neutral" comment about something you observed is likely to feel like a judgment, because they understand that you wouldn't mention it unless it was important to you.

I think there a lot of ways to teach a kid what traits you admire that don't involve praising the kid when she demonstrates those traits. You can show those traits yourself, you can talk about how much you admire them, and why, you can point out examples in books, etc. Of course, the kid is going to become aware that you get warm feelings when she's generous, and I don't think that's so terrible. I think what you want to avoid is having her feel that you only have warm feelings toward her when she's doing good deeds - that she needs to do good deeds to be loved. Praising her for sharing probably isn't such a bad thing, as long as you're also willing to give her extra attention and love sometimes even when she's doing exactly the opposite of what you like.

I guess I have two arguments with your above paragraph.

One, I think it's splitting hairs to say that there's a whole lot of difference between discussing the traits I like and directly labeling them in my child. Four and five year olds can easily extrapolate from my comment on how Dick shared his cookie with Jane in the book to their actions. So I think if you're interested in placing value judgements on actions at all (which I am), then you might as well tell your kid.

Second, who's to say that loving your child unconditionally is enough? I can't really argue this point very well, because again, I haven't read UP, but I want to give my children a whole lot more than the simple knowledge that they are loved unconditionally.

Also, to respond to Deva33mommy, I agree that it's important to point out the reactions of others when kind deeds are done. Good point.


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## bettysmom (Jul 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
Wait a minute...some people don't praise their children on purpose??? I must've missed something...is this the new parenting thing these days?

Yep, pumpkinyum. The main guy seems to be Alfie Kohn, who has lots of fans here, but also many who disagree. The common ground here seems to be that "good job" or calling your child a "good boy" or "good girl" are a little hollow and perhaps counterproductive. The main point of disagreement seems to be over what other kinds of statements count as this type of praise, and whether any sort of evaluative statement is harmful. Also over what, exactly, Kohn says about this -- which I wouldn't know, as I haven't read him and don't plan to.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Honestly, I see the word "generous" as a value judgement. That would put it in the praise camp for me personally. I'm definitely not saying that it's a bad thing to say. I've been trying to avoid those types of evaluations, but I'm starting to think they are perfectly fine. I'm just talking semantics here, really.
Now, if you said "You shared your cookie with your brother. Look how happy he looks now!" THEN I'd say it wasn't praise at all. A very very slight difference. In the first, YOU (general parent) are evaluating dc's actions (I have deemed your actions to be generous. lol).
In the second, you are telling dc how their actions affected brother. So the motivation to share the next time comes from the knowledge of how that action will affect others, not of what mom will think of that action.
Same basic effect though, I'd imagine. I don't see either as harmful- like I said, I'm just arguing semantics.

Yes, I really agree with you. I've been trying to focus on how dd's actions affect others rather than how I feel about them. I actually got that idea from reading UP. My friend also does that naturally, without having read UP. I try to do this when she has made others (usually her brother) both happy and upset.

I also think it's not such a bad thing to say that a child was being generous. At the very least it gives a young child a word to describe her actions. If it's not being used to manipulate (as in, "Be generous with your brother! Stop being so stingy!") I don't see why it would be terrible now and then.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pradiata* 

I think there's a big difference between praising someone for what YOU think they did well, and being enouraging and enthusiastic about what THEY are proud to be achieving or attempting. (I certainly wish my efforts had been noticed as well as my achievements.)

Very, very interesting discussion. We've been following Kohn (we use a lot of "You did it!" "Did that make you feel good about yourself?" "Look at all those lines you drew!" etc) but I've "slipped" and said "I'm so proud of you" when DS has done something really amazing that he's obviously proud of... although it felt natural to me at the time, I questioned it later. This thread, though, is making me rethink my avoidance of heartfelt evaluative praise. I like what was said in the quote above, and I'm going to use this as a guide: if the child is excited about his/her accomplishment, then why shouldn't the parent celebrate that as well, and why should we, as parents, hesitate to express to the child that we are proud/happy/excited for them as well? It seems like a good way for me to avoid praise that is manipulative is to try to take my cue from my child.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

If it feels natural to you to make observations and not praise, then do it. I think any praise might come across awkwardly or insincerely if it doesn't feel natural. (I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but the posts that prefer Kohn's examples over "good job" kinds of comments).

To me, it feels totally natural so I do it. I've come to realize that my instincts are much more spot on than any book. My kid is a unique person and doesn't fit into a book's characterization of him in entirety. Yes, children follow patterns of development, but they are unique individuals and it's our job to figure out who they are and what they need from us.

I have a friend whose child hates being praised so she doesn't do it. She would like to but she noticed early on that it had the opposite affect on him and actually irritated him and didn't make him want to continue to do x,y or z. My kiddo loves to be encouraged and praised and I see him doing it now with his little brother.

Different strokes for different folks. I would really discourage anyone from taking what any book says hook, line and sinker.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I took "good boy" out of the language that I use completely. This has made life easier and I have to think less about the way I use praise or encouragement. Saying "good boy" or "good girl" labels the person rather than their efforts or talents or skills.

I guess this is one area I stick to pretty much 100% because I don't ever want to think my kiddo isn't good. He is good even if his behavior or choices aren't! I still defer to "good job" a good bit...I try to mix it up with more specifics but I don't really think it does he nor myself a lot of good to overthink it too much. I try to just connect with him and focus on that rather than the semantics.


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

I've skimmed a lot of this, read the first couple pages in detail. Really interesting thread! My DH was overpraised, his mom constantly layered it on, the evaluative kind, and he felt like it really set him up for depending on extrinisic reward/motivation, and truly he does now have a deep-rooted self-esteem problem. I'll add that he felt he was never good enough for his over-worked Dad, so that was part of this issue, but he tends to feel it was more rooted in his mom's praise.

I on the other hand had a mom who leaned more toward careful praise, how do you feel about it, tell me about it, etc. Not too many good jobs, but she did not do NO Praise. In fact she always shared in my excitement about things in a really enthusiastic way, and didn't mind showing her excitement even if it ended up classified as praise. I still have some issues with how she parented me, but honestly as I grow older, I'm more and more aware that my issues were those of all gifted children and she made them better not worse. I can honestly say I don't have self-esteem or depression issues and am very intrinsically motivated, so she must have done something right.

Fast forward to how we parent our boys. Because of DH's issues with praise, we did almost no praise in his first few years, but then switched to a more Easy to Love Difficult to Discpline style of descriptive praise, not evaluative praise. I don't hesitate to say Good for you! etc., but I do shy away from "I'm proud of you (implied for such and such), because that sounds too much like "I love you for such and such"). This feels much more right and natural, and more like my mom did. My oldest son does have some self-esteem issues, and I wonder how much comes from his first few no praise years, but mostly I think it stems from some neurological issues he has. IMHO the most important thing is to be truly present and in tune with our children as much as possible, whatever the words are. And to show them and tell them that we love them unconditionally explicityly and frequently, in ways totally unconnected with anything they do. I highly recommend Becky Bailey's "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discpline". I'm also a Faber-Mazlisch fan.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pradiata* 
I think there's a big difference between praising someone for what YOU think they did well, and being enouraging and enthusiastic about what THEY are proud to be achieving or attempting. (I certainly wish my efforts had been noticed as well as my achievements.)

Very good point. As long as my "praise" is in line with how ds feels about his action, and doesn't put MY evaluation over HIS evaluation, I feel ok about it.
I wouldn't want to say something that made it seem like my perception mattered more than his, though.
So, if he builds a tall tower and he's quite impressed with it, I try to go with what he's happy with, and agree with him, "You did build it really tall! Neat!" does that make sense?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
Wait a minute...some people don't praise their children on purpose??? I must've missed something...is this the new parenting thing these days?

Well, I think it's important to know that there is a difference between praise and positive feedback/encouragement.
So the people who don't praise a la Kohn are using the word "praise" to mean, basically, value judgments. Good boy/girl. Good job. I'm proud of you for being such a good sharer. (is that a word? lol).
All of those put the emphasis on how the parent feels/views dc's actions, instead of putting the empasis on DC, and how their actions affect others.
So, a person who limits praise might say: "Thank you for helping me clean up. It made it go so much faster!" or "Yeah! You climbed up the slide all by yourself! That was pretty fun wasn't it?" (the fun part, you'd only say if dc looked to be having fun). Or "Lily looks really happy now that you shared that ball with her."

In all of the non-praise (or at least limited), there is still encouragement, sharing excitement, and positive feedback. It's just not as full of value judgements.

Also, a big part of non-praising the AK way, is that you show unconditional love even when dc does something that is not acceptable. So while you wouldn't say "good boy" you also wouldn't say "bad boy" when dc does something wrong. Again, at least for me, I use the same types of phrases. I try to leave value judgments out of it, and describe what I see "Oh no! You dumped the juice, and now there's a big mess to clean up." Or "Lily seems pretty upset that you won't let her play with the ball. Let's find a solution."

Not saying "good job" and "good boy" are really easy for me. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever said either one to ds. Now, stuff like "neat" and "cool" I do use. And I say stuff like "What a neat picture! Tell me about it."


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I grew up with one parent who praised fairly conditionally (when it reflected well on her) and one parent who didn't praise and was often disconnected.

I developed a reasonably good (I think) sense of intrinsic motivation and although I still have trouble when someone compliments me (first thought: no way; second thought: what are they trying to get out of me?) I feel like I do okay on the "life satisfaction" meter. Most days.









My sister became very extrinsicly motivated and actively seeks praise and rewards and is very much driven by those things. (In a good way, but she also has shared that it can be very hard if she doesn't get them.)

I honestly think how one is affected by praise is _partly_ related to personality and _partly_ related to how one experiences one's locus of control and _partly_ a reflection of the relationship to the praiser, and all kinds of things.

Which is just to say... I honestly think each child is different, and may need different things at different times.

I have no trouble with a mindful approach to praise, reflection of feelings, reinforcement both positive and negative, etc. (We could say a natural consequence of good effort is a happy parent, in some ways.) But I am really suspicious of dogma that suggests that all of X kind of praise is bad, or good, or whatever.

Except maybe "good boy/girl." That one I really shy away from. But I think a grandparent can get away with it because a grandparenting relationship is different.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I grew up with one parent who praised fairly conditionally (when it reflected well on her) and one parent who didn't praise and was often disconnected.

I developed a reasonably good (I think) sense of intrinsic motivation and although I still have trouble when someone compliments me (first thought: no way; second thought: what are they trying to get out of me?) I feel like I do okay on the "life satisfaction" meter. Most days.









My sister became very extrinsicly motivated and actively seeks praise and rewards and is very much driven by those things. (In a good way, but she also has shared that it can be very hard if she doesn't get them.)

I honestly think how one is affected by praise is _partly_ related to personality and _partly_ related to how one experiences one's locus of control and _partly_ a reflection of the relationship to the praiser, and all kinds of things.

Which is just to say... I honestly think each child is different, and may need different things at different times.

I have no trouble with a mindful approach to praise, reflection of feelings, reinforcement both positive and negative, etc. (We could say a natural consequence of good effort is a happy parent, in some ways.) But I am really suspicious of dogma that suggests that all of X kind of praise is bad, or good, or whatever.

Except maybe "good boy/girl." That one I really shy away from. But I think a grandparent can get away with it because a grandparenting relationship is different.

Well said! ITA.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Alfie Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, and that's the point he makes with praise. When we use words as a carrot-stick method of parenting, it's still a kind of reward/punishment system. So if we praise our kids when they do well and tell them we're disappointed when they don't do well in an attempt to get them to do what we want, it is no different than sticker charts and time outs as far as behaviorism goes. If you are moving away from behaviorism, using praise in that way is another thing to steer clear of.

Praise that comes naturally and is not related to manipulating children through behaviorist psychology is not the same issue. This behaviorist type of praise looks pretty obvious when you see someone doing it. "Good job cleaning up your toys!" It's certainly better than swatting a kid for not cleaning up, and it's probably better than giving a kid a sticker for cleaning up to put on a sticker chart, but it's still using behaviorism and external motivating factors to get your kids to do what you want.

Also, there are thousands of ways to show appreciation, pride, and joy for your children other than speaking the words "good job." Kohn's point about those words is that when kids are doing things to hear the words "good job" and therefore to know they've pleased their parents rather than doing things to please themselves, they can grow up to be "praise junkies" who simply NEED to be praised to be happy.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Also, there are thousands of ways to show appreciation, pride, and joy for your children other than speaking the words "good job." Kohn's point about those words is that when kids are doing things to hear the words "good job" and therefore to know they've pleased their parents rather than doing things to please themselves, they can grow up to be "praise junkies" who simply NEED to be praised to be happy.

so how do you explain all the people on here who wern't praised as kids and need praise now?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
so how do you explain all the people on here who wern't praised as kids and need praise now?

Parents aren't the only people who do this. I think it's been even more common in schools. Constant.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Parents aren't the only people who do this. I think it's been even more common in schools. Constant.

I was never praised in school


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
I was never praised in school

Really? Odd. I come from a family of school teachers and they were specifically taught to use praise as a motivating factor. I'm sure not all teachers took to that but it seems odd that you never came across a teacher who did that. Unless you went to school before the 70s, when it became so commonly used.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Really? Odd. I come from a family of school teachers and they were specifically taught to use praise as a motivating factor. I'm sure not all teachers took to that but it seems odd that you never came across a teacher who did that. Unless you went to school before the 70s, when it became so commonly used.

I grew up in another country. I wasn't praised because I was the smart kid who got put up 4 classes, and then when i changed schools and they didnt provide me with the level of education i needed, I became the trouble making kid, mainly because i had all my work done before everyone else and i always got in trouble for finding my own quiet activities to occupy myself.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Ah, well growing up in another country explains that. I'm sure the wave of behaviorism didn't wash over every country on earth.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Alfie Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, and that's the point he makes with praise. When we use words as a carrot-stick method of parenting, it's still a kind of reward/punishment system. So if we praise our kids when they do well and tell them we're disappointed when they don't do well in an attempt to get them to do what we want, it is no different than sticker charts and time outs as far as behaviorism goes. If you are moving away from behaviorism, using praise in that way is another thing to steer clear of.

Praise that comes naturally and is not related to manipulating children through behaviorist psychology is not the same issue. This behaviorist type of praise looks pretty obvious when you see someone doing it. "Good job cleaning up your toys!" It's certainly better than swatting a kid for not cleaning up, and it's probably better than giving a kid a sticker for cleaning up to put on a sticker chart, but it's still using behaviorism and external motivating factors to get your kids to do what you want.

Also, there are thousands of ways to show appreciation, pride, and joy for your children other than speaking the words "good job." Kohn's point about those words is that when kids are doing things to hear the words "good job" and therefore to know they've pleased their parents rather than doing things to please themselves, they can grow up to be "praise junkies" who simply NEED to be praised to be happy.

I totally get this and think it's important...but I'm not an "anti-behaviorist". It's not my primary mode of parenting but I certainly use it from time to time and I think there is absolutely no harm in it if it isn't overly used. A friend of mine is using a sticker chart for a few things and her child is thoroughly enjoying it...it's something he gets a big kick out of. She's tried a lot of other things with him on certain issues and it's clearly making him more anxious and out-of-control feeling. For him, this provided structure and something visual and he loves it. I think the proof is in the pudding.

I think it's very wise to listen to these women's accounts of their own childhood and give it some careful thought. I actually put a lot more weight on that than Mr. Kohn.

I again, I think GuildJenn said it best that following any theory 100% can be ineffective. We're all a bit more complex than that.


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## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
so how do you explain all the people on here who wern't praised as kids and need praise now?

Jumping in here









I think it's already been pointed out that most of the people who were rarely or never praised as children and consider it a detriment to them were also not shown unconditional love and acceptance.

I think for this "non praising" for good behavior thing to "work," it has to be used with the reverse, as in, no condemning for bad behavior. Surely if behaviorist principles are used on kids whenever they do something wrong, they'll be looking for the flip side of the coin when they do something right. So if they don't get that, yeah, I can see problems arising! But if acceptance and encouragement and "positive regard" is shown unconditionally, no matter what the child does, where is the need for added "verbal doggy biscuits" when he does something good?

And yeah, Kohn is definitely in favor of sharing enthusiasm and joy. In UP he gives a few examples... trying to remember right now, something about being excited with his daughter for climbing the stairs for the first time and saying something like, "You did it! You made it all the way up by yourself!" and another one about when a child rides her bike for the first time.

I think he said something about watching the child's expression/amount of enthusiasm for her accomplishment and matching it. Let it be about HER, don't turn it into something about you by making an even bigger deal about it than she thinks it is.

Not sure where I was going with all that.... oh yeah, to show that no, AK is not about just being expressionless and joyless for fear of, I don't know, overstimulating their egos or something.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 
Jumping in here









I think it's already been pointed out that most of the people who were rarely or never praised as children and consider it a detriment to them were also not shown unconditional love and acceptance.

I think for this "non praising" for good behavior thing to "work," it has to be used with the reverse, as in, no condemning for bad behavior. Surely if behaviorist principles are used on kids whenever they do something wrong, they'll be looking for the flip side of the coin when they do something right. So if they don't get that, yeah, I can see problems arising! But if acceptance and encouragement and "positive regard" is shown unconditionally, no matter what the child does, where is the need for added "verbal doggy biscuits" when he does something good?

And yeah, Kohn is definitely in favor of sharing enthusiasm and joy. In UP he gives a few examples... trying to remember right now, something about being excited with his daughter for climbing the stairs for the first time and saying something like, "You did it! You made it all the way up by yourself!" and another one about when a child rides her bike for the first time.

I think he said something about watching the child's expression/amount of enthusiasm for her accomplishment and matching it. Let it be about HER, don't turn it into something about you by making an even bigger deal about it than she thinks it is.

Not sure where I was going with all that.... oh yeah, to show that no, AK is not about just being expressionless and joyless for fear of, I don't know, overstimulating their egos or something.

I think what bugs me about AK is that it's more about the intention and attention, IMO, than the words. I do think that being specific (like the stairs example) conveys that you're really paying attention so it is great to do that. But I think taking it to the extreme can actually be annoying and a "good job" here and there is perfectly fine.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 
I think it's already been pointed out that most of the people who were rarely or never praised as children and consider it a detriment to them were also not shown unconditional love and acceptance.

I think for this "non praising" for good behavior thing to "work," it has to be used with the reverse, as in, no condemning for bad behavior. Surely if behaviorist principles are used on kids whenever they do something wrong, they'll be looking for the flip side of the coin when they do something right.

(...snip...)

I think he said something about watching the child's expression/amount of enthusiasm for her accomplishment and matching it. Let it be about HER, don't turn it into something about you by making an even bigger deal about it than she thinks it is.


Two very good points.
I'm learning a lot in this thread, and it's helping me figure out where I want to be in the whole praise thing. I love the term used by a pp "mindful praise"!


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 
Jumping in here









I think it's already been pointed out that most of the people who were rarely or never praised as children and consider it a detriment to them were also not shown unconditional love and acceptance.

One post suggested that, but I know it used my post as one of the "See, you didn't get unconditional love" examples, and I think I've said repeatedly that I did get lots of love, and I never had the impression I was loved conditionally. I just was raised with a father who had a very strong sense that "you should do things because they're the right thing to do, not because I praise you for doing them."

While there are some people who have said their parents were quite conditional, there are enough of us who have said our parents were *not* unloving and did not put conditions on being loved to suggest that it is more than just the lack of praise being part of a conditional love situation.

I know Kohn doesn't say you should be a joyless drone to avoid praising your kids, but frankly, there are way too many people who seem to interpet it that way -- and there are MORE people who have never read Kohn, but come to read the Gentle Discpline forum or other similar forums and BECAUSE They haven't read Kohn, take away the bullet point "don't praise. At all. Ever."

Which just shows the real lesson is not only "Don't treat any 'expert' as an infallible guru," but also, "Never rely on an Internet bulletin board's summary of any 'system' and assume you've got all its nuances."


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
One post suggested that, but I know it used my post as one of the "See, you didn't get unconditional love" examples, and I think I've said repeatedly that I did get lots of love, and I never had the impression I was loved conditionally. I just was raised with a father who had a very strong sense that "you should do things because they're the right thing to do, not because I praise you for doing them."

While there are some people who have said their parents were quite conditional, there are enough of us who have said our parents were *not* unloving and did not put conditions on being loved to suggest that it is more than just the lack of praise being part of a conditional love situation.

My post was similar to yours, I know, and have always known, that my parents love me regardless of what i did/didnt do, and even regardless of my life choices.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

ITA with GuildJenn--great post.

I feel I was praised "the right amount" as a child. And I think it really helped me develop into an intrinsically motivated person. Of course, it may be personality, too, but I was praised some (midfully, I'd say) and I am not a praise junkie.

One thing my parents were very un-praisey about was grades. I was sort of just expected to do well, and I generally did. On the other hand, if I slipped up, I wasn't give the third degree. It was just kind of my business. Somehow this worked, and I've sometimes wondered HOW! I would love my own kids to grow up with the independent attitude towards school and grades that I had. I went to HS with many kids who got money for grades, and even then I looked on this with bewilderment and scorn. The grade was its own reward. (And sometimes there wasn't a good grade, and it wasn't the end of the world--maybe there were good reasons for the poor grade, YK?)

I notice that my DD needs praise for things that are hard for her and responds in the problematic ways Kohn decsribes if we praise her for things that are easy or that she is naturally motivated to do. DH still is praising her too much for art, IMO...she loves it by nature and doesn't need "Oh, I LOVE it!" for every scribble. But I've seen her really internalize pride and self-confidence after I've praised her for keeping her cool in a difficult situation.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

think it's already been pointed out that most of the people who were rarely or never praised as children and consider it a detriment to them were also not shown unconditional love and acceptance.
I was deffiently shown unconditional love and acceptance and to this day have a very close relationship with my parents. I wasn't praised though or VERY rarely so when I was it felt fake I was always told if I feel good thats enough but I often really desired the verbal aproval of my parents not that I needed it at least not as much as I grew but as a child growing I did I valued there opnionions and had trouble reading how truthful they were because of there lack of any praise. I always felt loved though. I always felt accepted.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
One post suggested that, but I know it used my post as one of the "See, you didn't get unconditional love" examples, and I think I've said repeatedly that I did get lots of love, and I never had the impression I was loved conditionally. I just was raised with a father who had a very strong sense that "you should do things because they're the right thing to do, not because I praise you for doing them."

oops, I think that was me. Sorry! I guess I read too much into "and only when earned by something incredibly out of the ordinary." like, only praise when it's really been earned or something.

I do see what Octobermom is saying. Parent's (and partners) opinions DO matter.
If dp said about dinner "wow, you sure did use a lot of spinach" (which he loves, btw) I wouldn't know how to take that. Did that make it tasty? Or was it too much? etc.
I like hearing "Dinner is really good." (but I still don't think I'd like to hear "good job cooking"







)


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

That's so true, Deva! And hilarious about the "good job cooking" comment...that wouldn't go over well here, either.

We all want to please and be validated by the people we love. It's very natural. That's why I think sometimes the observations and details can get to be a bit much sometimes.

"Everything in moderation" is my motto for most things.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

My mom was (is!) an effusive, affectionate, verbal Italian-American. We grew up with lots of hugs, kisses, and I suppose you would call it "praise", but it wasn't that simple. A flat and serious "Good job" was not what it was- it was what you might call "gushy". There was no holding back! But it was real. She really felt our art was beautiful. She told us how wonderful we were (are!







). And if there was something we were proud of that didn't strike her fancy, she was happy we were happy, and she was more than glad to encourage us to say why we were proud of it and enjoy the pride in ourselves. And, never being short on words, her praise was always thorough- we _both_ talked about why we were happy and proud- it was a private "brag-fest". We talked about effort, beauty, success, accomplishment, etc. It was never just "good job" it was a 15 minute "praise experience" in which she gushed, but also taught me the things involved with these feelings. In these praise times, she taught me how to see myself and find the good and trust it. I'd leave her praise sessions not only feeling valued, honored and special, but also confident and self-secure. And, when things didn't go well, we'd have long, long talks on that too. I knew she was proud of me. I knew she wanted me to be proud of myself. She taught me the things to be proud of and how I should trust them and know I could do them. Her praise was always real. It was always sincere. And I didn't do things specifically to please her- I knew she would find a way to tell me she loved me no matter how things came out. She was always honest. And I knew I could trust her, because on the flip side, if she didn't like something, she'd tell me that too. But she had a way of doing it that never made me feel bad or that I would not be loved or I was any less. And she'd usually be even able to find something good in that too ("Dang, A! You're stubborn as a mule! You should think of being a laywer..." She'd say with a laugh). As I grew up, I knew I was loved and could talk about anything and my mom would give me a straight answer that would always be right somehow.

So- I had the opposite. If you looked in my house growing up, you'd see an estatic mother over childrens art, clapping vigorously at our pretend puppet shows hailing our creativity, smiling with a tear in the eye about how wonderful we were... Alfie's worst nightmare!









And I'm a totally independent, internally motivated, stable, happy, confident adult... And my mom is the most amazing person I know. I can only hope I do as good a job as she did with the praise.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I do see what Octobermom is saying. Parent's (and partners) opinions DO matter.
If dp said about dinner "wow, you sure did use a lot of spinach" (which he loves, btw) I wouldn't know how to take that. Did that make it tasty? Or was it too much? etc.
I like hearing "Dinner is really good." (but I still don't think I'd like to hear "good job cooking"







)


Exactly! THis is what I've been reaching for in some of my posts.... while we should acheive for the pleasure of achievement -- our achievements don't exist in a vaccuum and without SOME feedback ("evaluative praise," yes?) we can't get a decent idea of the results of our work on the people it impacts -- and children are seeking feedback on how the social world works.

TO continue your example (I LOVE "you used a lot of spinach" BTW)

I know, objectively, that the very act of cooking dinner is an achievement of some kind, no matter how the food turns out.

However: to know whether my efforts had their intended effect (ie, whether the people for whom I cooked dinner enjoyed it), I need actual _evaluation_ -- I need praise, particularly descriptive, evaluative, praise. "The spinach is really good," tells me I did something I should do again. "The spinach is really good, you made it spicier than last time," tells me that I can spice things up and my target audience will enjoy that more.

Yeah, hearing "you cooked dinner! Good job!" would get on my last nerve. But so would night after night of DP commenting on my technique in absolutely neutral terms because he's not wanting to use evaluative praise in case I start cooking dinner JUST for the praise. Frankly, I'd probably stop cooking dinner if I heard "you used spinach!" every night...


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
So- I had the opposite. If you looked in my house growing up, you'd see an estatic mother over childrens art, clapping vigorously at our pretend puppet shows hailing our creativity, smiling with a tear in the eye about how wonderful we were... Alfie's worst nightmare!









I don't think that sounds like the opposite of what Alfie Kohn promotes at all. From your description, I really think it sounds a lot like what he described in Unconditional Parenting. It certainly sounds like you felt unconditionally loved.

AK doesn't recommend responding without emotion to whatever your kid does. He doesn't say you shouldn't celebrate with your kid when she's happy about something she did. He doesn't say you should avoid telling your kid how wonderful she is.

As Savithny said, it's really a bad idea to decide you disagree with Alfie Kohn based on what people on MDC say he says. Threads like this are full of misconceptions about his ideas. I didn't find that article of his people always link to ("Five Reasons Not to Say Good Job" or something like that) very convincing, either. I read Punished by Rewards without any expectation I would agree with it, but it actually made a lot of sense, and so did Unconditional Parenting.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Exactly! THis is what I've been reaching for in some of my posts.... while we should acheive for the pleasure of achievement -- our achievements don't exist in a vaccuum and without SOME feedback ("evaluative praise," yes?) we can't get a decent idea of the results of our work on the people it impacts -- and children are seeking feedback on how the social world works.

TO continue your example (I LOVE "you used a lot of spinach" BTW)

I know, objectively, that the very act of cooking dinner is an achievement of some kind, no matter how the food turns out.

However: to know whether my efforts had their intended effect (ie, whether the people for whom I cooked dinner enjoyed it), I need actual _evaluation_ -- I need praise, particularly descriptive, evaluative, praise. "The spinach is really good," tells me I did something I should do again. "The spinach is really good, you made it spicier than last time," tells me that I can spice things up and my target audience will enjoy that more.

Yeah, hearing "you cooked dinner! Good job!" would get on my last nerve. But so would night after night of DP commenting on my technique in absolutely neutral terms because he's not wanting to use evaluative praise in case I start cooking dinner JUST for the praise. Frankly, I'd probably stop cooking dinner if I heard "you used spinach!" every night...

ITA, I love to hear things like "that dinner tasted great huney, thank you!" but if I got... you used alot of herbs or pasta etc...... I'd be wondering if that was good, did you like it, was that an insult made to sound nice?


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I'm learning a lot in this thread, and it's helping me figure out where I want to be in the whole praise thing.

Yep, me too. I haven't ever been sure how I much I wanted to say to my kids about the things they do really well. I know I don't want to make them feel like I'm evaluating everything they do, but this thread is making me think about how I also don't want them to think I'm paying no attention, or don't care, or don't realize how much work has gone into their accomplishments.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Yeah, hearing "you cooked dinner! Good job!" would get on my last nerve.

That is freakin hilarious. It's much funnier than what I said. lol

Quote:

But so would night after night of DP commenting on my technique in absolutely neutral terms because he's not wanting to use evaluative praise in case I start cooking dinner JUST for the praise. Frankly, I'd probably stop cooking dinner if I heard "you used spinach!" every night...
Good point there. I'm on the self conscious side when it comes to cooking. It's kinda like hearing "it's...interesting..." lol (but then, did that come from school, and grades, and all that? I say that instead of praise, because I think I was much more affected by grades than by any praise by my parents or grandparents.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
My mom was (is!) an effusive, affectionate, verbal Italian-American. We grew up with lots of hugs, kisses, and I suppose you would call it "praise", but it wasn't that simple. A flat and serious "Good job" was not what it was- it was what you might call "gushy". There was no holding back! But it was real.

That was my grandma. There was constant praise. There's no way it could have been conditional, because EVERYTHING was praiseworthy. lol. I definitely felt unconditionally loved by her and my mom. I thought it was just her wierd way of doing things. lol. She does it with ds, and I'd much rather have that type of praise, than the type that's doled out only when it's truly "earned."
Funny though, I don't remember praise from my mom. I know she did it, and I know that I felt unconditionally loved by her. But I don't remember it at all.

I must say, I really really appreciate how gentle this thread has been. It makes it much easier to have an open mind.


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