# When do you turn'em around?



## kimmypoo (Mar 6, 2009)

At my LO's last WBV, the ped said she should be 20 pounds by her 1st birthday and then we can turn her carseat forward facing. I was getting excited bc I think she really hates being RF, but I've been seeing alot of posts on here about keeping children RF for as long as possible. At what point is it safe to turn them around?


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

The longer you can wait the better. The AAP now rec's until 2 years old. The safest is supposed to be the weight limit of your car seats rear facing capacity. That said, due to reflux and car sickness we turned my dd around at 11 mos and 18 pounds. It was safer for me to drive without her screaming and distracting me.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

It is always safer to be rearfacing. There is clear evidence that it is 5x safer for children under the age of 2. I wouldn't turn an under-two child unless they were over 35lbs or tall enough to have outgrown the tallest seats by height.


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## ani'smommy (Nov 29, 2005)

We turned our DS when he outgrew the weight limit. He isn't two yet, but he's over the 33lbs that our seat allows for rearfacing.

We turned DD around right after she turned one because she hated the carseat, too. It didn't make a bit of difference so we switched her back.


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

Is you kiddo still in the bucket?? Our dd hated the bucket (I think the angle bothers them after a while) - so we just put her in a rear-facing convertible (radian) around 10mos and she was happy. She is still rear-facing at almost 2.5yrs and happy as a clam in her seat.

If you want to see why, check youtube for crash-test videos - my dh only made it through one and he whole-heartedly agreed that she would rear-face as long as possible!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Dd stayed rear facing until 3.5yrs.

As long as possible is the best rule of thumb.

-Angela


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## joyfulgrrrl (Jun 8, 2006)

At least 2 y.o.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

It is allowed to turn babies forward at 12 months AND (not or) 20 pounds, but it is *not* wise > http://www.joelsjourney.org/

RF is *5* times safer than FF ... until at least 2 yrs old . . . _best practice_ means keeping toddlers/preschoolers RF until reaching the maximum RF *size* limits.

Turning a kid FF only seems to "cure" unhappiness merely because it's new & unexpected for them. However, most adults & older kids able to communicate clearly enough to explain that dangling feet leads to numbness, pins-n-needles, even backaches. Kids have various ways of supporting their feet/legs while RF. Even if we did see leg injuries from extended RF (which we don't) such injuries pale in comparison to a internal decapitation. Toddlers in general just don't like being stuck in any position, it's their job to explore the world around them. However, it's our job as parents to keep them safe. Car crashes are the leading cause of death for kids. Turning a child FF merely for novelty or convenience is quite irresponsible.


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## sprouthead (Jul 14, 2007)

My new pedi told me I should turn DS ff (just turned 2, 25 lbs).. I told her he was rf because I thought they were supposed to be rf for as long as possible.. I ended up just smiling and nodding, but part of me worries if I'm really doing the right thing..


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sprouthead* 
My new pedi told me I should turn DS ff (just turned 2, 25 lbs).. I told her he was rf because I thought they were supposed to be rf for as long as possible.. I ended up just smiling and nodding, but part of me worries if I'm really doing the right thing..

You are. Your pediatrician is doing the WRONG thing by telling you you "should" turn your DS.


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

FF may not solve the hating the car issue. We had to return DD's seat due to a flaw (a britax recall actually) and in the interum we used another seat. I couldn't get a good RF install, so I had her FF. She was 25 months. She hated it. It freaked her out. She spent the whole ride covering her eyes and crying. As soon as we got the other seat back, she went back to RF and has been happy since.

Kids just don't like being strapped in. Do what is in their best interest. And seriously, how can "they" know your kid will like FF better? S/he has NEVER been FF, right? It is different, sure, but iot can be scary (as evidenced by my DD). It is not logical to say taht all kids are happier in the car FF.


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## angeloak (May 23, 2008)

Any suggestions for helping frustrated toddlers cope with RF carseats? My DD is 15 months but just getting to the 20 lb mark and out of her RF infant carrier. We are buying her a convertible car seat and I know RF is much safer, but don't know how to cope with her increasing frustration about being in the car.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

DD is 3.5 and still rearfacing. We are waiting for the new 40 lb. seat to come out (hopefully some time this summer) and we'll buy that and keep her rearfacing until she reaches the limit of that seat.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

DS2 will be 4 next month and he still RF. I bought a carseat that specifically has a high height/weight limit so he can RF as long as possible.


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

my ds is 19 months and still rearfacing... and seeing as hes not even 25 pounds yet, and now theyre coming out with 40lb rearfacing seats, he'll probably be rearfacing in kindergarten


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syd'smom* 
If you want to see why, check youtube for crash-test videos - my dh only made it through one and he whole-heartedly agreed that she would rear-face as long as possible!









The video worked for my DH, too. Now if only there were a 2-minute video about vaccines...


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

To me turning a child FF at a young age/low weight because they are "unhappy" is like letting your kid play in the street because when you try to stop them, they cry. It's a basic safety issue.

Okay, coming back to amend, I realize there are extenuating circumstances but I hear ALL THE TIME about people turning much too young, much too small babies and toddlers FF because "they cried" without exploring any other options and it's incredibly frustrating.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Friday13th* 
To me turning a child FF at a young age/low weight because they are "unhappy" is like letting your kid play in the street because when you try to stop them, they cry. It's a basic safety issue.

RF is unequivocally better than FF, yes.

But if you want to talk safety, trying to ascertain if your RF child is choking on their own vomit the fourth time they've puked due to motion sickness during your 20 minute drive down the highway is not particularly safe either.

Nor is trying to drive while a child is screaming at the top of their lungs. Heck, my fine motor skills go to crap when my baby is screaming during a diaper change, I'm sure they do the same while I'm driving.

But hey, what can I say, I just can't stand to see a frown on my kid's face. Why just yesterday he was playing with a set of butcher knives and I didn't want to upset him so I let him go right ahead. I'm just that kind of mom!


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## pastrygirl (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angeloak* 
Any suggestions for helping frustrated toddlers cope with RF carseats? My DD is 15 months but just getting to the 20 lb mark and out of her RF infant carrier. We are buying her a convertible car seat and I know RF is much safer, but don't know how to cope with her increasing frustration about being in the car.

A convertible can be installed more upright for older babies, and definitely for toddlers. Some brands allow up to 30 degrees, others up to 35 (check your manual). That alone might make your toddler happier! I installed mine more upright at 9 months. Come to think of it, just switching to a convertible at 3 months stopped all the crying, in my case. My son just hated his infant seat.

To get my Marathon more upright, I pull it away from the vehicle seat crack by a couple of inches, then install/tighten as usual. I had to play with it a few times to get it as close to 30 degrees as I could. I'm not sure if the same technique can be used with other brands (doesn't seem to work with my Radian) but you can give it a try.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I'm sure that there are situations where children are genuinely extremely upset and/or motion sick and it is truly safer for the parents driving to not be worrying. However, I'll speak from experience when I tell you I was one of those parents who claimed I turned my daughter because she cried without trying anything else. My daughter was truly very distraught in the car, but I DIDN'T try anything else. She hit 1 year to the day, was 24lbs, and I turned her. I KNEW better, and I told everyone why I had turned her, "Because she cried" but I didn't try music, or special car toys, or a different car seat, or a higher angle, etc., etc. I didn't. I wanted her forward facing, because it was "easier" because I could see her, etc.

I am now a CPST Instructor, with a rear facing 27 mo. old, and I see parents all the time who come in with perfectly happy children who "hate" rear facing so they just "need" to be forward facing. I'm sorry, but it's rare situation where this is truly TRUE. And if you sense some snark in us, it's because we have this discussion all the time, and sometimes, it's difficult to remember not to be snarky even online, because we are dealing with real life parents, even if this is a virtual conversation.

The bottom line is that your child is 5 times less likely to be injured or killed rear facing. The AAP recommends that children stay rear facing to the maximum weight and height limit , at least until two years old. And pediatricians that are still recommending 1 and 20, are giving out dangerous out dated advice.

It IS important for all techs, and we teach this to new CPS Techs, to meet parents where they are and to take everything into consideration. I had a student that uses a mirror against recommendations because her daughter has epilepsy. I would consider copious vomiting and gagging to be just cause to forward face. But please take into consideration that most parents of "crying" rear facing children are not facing that. As another CPST Instructor friend is fond of saying, "Parents don't realize that we are all volunteers, we don't get paid. We do this for nothing but cold pizza, warm water, an occasional free t-shirt and the satisfaction of knowing that what we taught a parent could save a child's life."


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angeloak* 
Any suggestions for helping frustrated toddlers cope with RF carseats? My DD is 15 months but just getting to the 20 lb mark and out of her RF infant carrier. We are buying her a convertible car seat and I know RF is much safer, but don't know how to cope with her increasing frustration about being in the car.

Are you just moving her now? I find that a 35 degree recline on a convertible is much more comfortable for most older infants and toddlers than a fully reclined 45 degree infant seat. That alone might help, especially if you get a seat like a Marathon that has a high base and lets her see out the windows more. My son also LOVED music at that age, we HAD to have Laurie Berkner on in the car. His first words in the car seat would be "Loooo-weee Mama!!" We also took off the head restraint so he could see out the back.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
I would consider copious vomiting and gagging to be just cause to forward face.

My DD has tons of issues (see blog) and I STILL don't turn her ff'ing! I just listen to her breathing and if I think it's bad, I pull over. Which I'd have to do anyway, because there's nothing I can do for her while I'm driving even if she's ff'ing.

OP, put her car seat more upright and wait for the phase to pass. DS went through it too. Turning him didn't help. He was happier rf'ing and he loves the car now even though he's too big to rf anymore.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I have a avg sized 12 mo old RF in a Britax Boulevard and his legs are all squished up. How are you mamas keeping 2+y/o's RF? Are there knees/legs bent or is my car seat installed incorrectly?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
My DD has tons of issues (see blog) and I STILL don't turn her ff'ing! I just listen to her breathing and if I think it's bad, I pull over. Which I'd have to do anyway, because there's nothing I can do for her while I'm driving even if she's ff'ing.

It's wonderful that you keep your DD rear facing. And I do recognize that parents choose different options in these tough situations. I applaud you for all you clearly do for your very special DD. I mostly just wanted to point out that "crying" is not the same as vomiting and gagging, and most parents with this complaint are not facing any challenges other than WANTING to turn them around!



> I have a avg sized 12 mo old RF in a Britax Boulevard and his legs are all squished up. How are you mamas keeping 2+y/o's RF? Are there knees/legs bent or is my car seat installed incorrectly?/QUOTE]
> 
> Squished legs are not an issue, there have never been reported cases of broken legs from extended rear facing. Children will figure out where to put there legs so they fit. And even if your child did sustain leg damage, it is MUCH preferable to the spinal cord damage that forward facing puts toddlers at risk for. Someone linked in this thread to Joel's Journey, a tragic example of the risk of spinal injury from forward facing.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
I am now a CPST Instructor, with a rear facing 27 mo. old, and I see parents all the time who come in with perfectly happy children who "hate" rear facing so they just "need" to be forward facing. I'm sorry, but it's rare situation where this is truly TRUE. And if you sense some snark in us, it's because we have this discussion all the time, and sometimes, it's difficult to remember not to be snarky even online, because we are dealing with real life parents, even if this is a virtual conversation.

Information is always fine, even if it's 'scary'. Even if it's direct, and a little snarky: "Is the crying really *so* bad that you're willing to quintuple your son's risk of dying in a car accident?" That would be fine by me.

But the playing-in-the-street-thing is just off base. That's not information, it's outright judgement without knowing the details of folks' situations.

It's the exact same thing as that awful pregnant-lady-riding-a-mechanical-bull commercial that was supposed to promote breastfeeding. Yes, people need to be aware that forward facing (and formula feeding) are risky behaviors. Yes, many people who have wee ones forward facing (and who feed formula) are doing so for _extremely_ poor reasons. But a woman with, say, PCOS who actually can't produce enough breastmilk (or the mother of a terribly motion-sick toddler







) doesn't need someone to try and tell her that she's careless and doesn't really give a hoot about the well being of her child.

Done derailing this thread for now







I can just hope my second son inherits my size but not my motion sickness and can stay rear facing until he's 4.









Edited to add: I should also point out that my puking FF child is 30 months old and 31 lbs


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Yup, like the pp said, bent legs are fine. However, the britax convertibles have the least amount of rfing leg room, IMO. The radian and true fit have quite a bit more.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Ok, I was thinking of bent legs more as a comfort issue than a safety issue.







Seriously, isn't that uncomfortable? And not to hijack, but I just read on a mainstream board a parent questioning about taking her 4 y/o's booster seat on a plane. Booster seat??? I was planning to use my Boulevard until 5, is that crazy?


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

We turned DS ~14 months. I don't remember exactly what he weighed but somewhere around 24-25 lbs as I recall... We'd switched to a convertible car seat months earlier hoping that would help his car hating, but it didn't. Even me sitting back with him when DH was driving didn't help. So we turned him around on the off chance that he'd be happier. And he was. Immediatly. Car rides went from torture not just of him but of everyone in the car due to his screaming to more or less happy affairs. The difference was immediate and amazing. If it hadn't been, or he'd reverted to screaming every time we even mentioned the car, we'd have turned him back around. So.. thats my story


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05* 
I have a avg sized 12 mo old RF in a Britax Boulevard and his legs are all squished up. How are you mamas keeping 2+y/o's RF? Are there knees/legs bent or is my car seat installed incorrectly?

Bent knees are absolutely fine. Dd used to hang her legs over the sides or sit cross legged.

-Angela


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05* 
Ok, I was thinking of bent legs more as a comfort issue than a safety issue.







Seriously, isn't that uncomfortable? And not to hijack, but I just read on a mainstream board a parent questioning about taking her 4 y/o's booster seat on a plane. Booster seat??? I was planning to use my Boulevard until 5, is that crazy?

It's not crazy -- my own 7yo is still harnessed most of the time, although she'll likely go to a booster this summer -- but it may or may not happen. Children almost always outgrow the Boulevard by height before weight, and some of them do that before age 5.

FTR, the best practice recommendations are at least 4y/40# for a booster seat. Many 4yos aren't ready to use a booster seat full-time, but a few are, so that other mainstream parent isn't necessarily crazy either.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05* 
Ok, I was thinking of bent legs more as a comfort issue than a safety issue.

Weell, I'm 27 and I mostly sit cross legged (even in the car) because I'm very short and my feet rarely rest comfortably on the ground in most chairs. Bent legs are fine!


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

And just an FYI, you can NOT use boosters on the plane, because they do not have lap/shoulder belts. Now they might carry it on and gate check it for a rental car at the other end, but boosters are a no-go on planes. My 5 year old is harnessed most of the time but uses a booster for back up pretty regularly now. So, like the other posters have said, you aren't crazy at all! The bottom line is that each step is a step DOWN from rear facing to forward to booster... It's not a graduation, it's a demotion in safety. So it's best to stay at each step for as long as possible.


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05* 
Ok, I was thinking of bent legs more as a comfort issue than a safety issue.







Seriously, isn't that uncomfortable? And not to hijack, but I just read on a mainstream board a parent questioning about taking her 4 y/o's booster seat on a plane. Booster seat??? I was planning to use my Boulevard until 5, is that crazy?

No, not crazy. I just turned my rf 5 yr old ff who was using a Britax Wizard (similar to Boulevard).


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
And just an FYI, you can NOT use boosters on the plane, because they do not have lap/shoulder belts.

Read the thread







The plane in question does have lap/shoulder belts, and the OP is not planning on using the booster for another couple of years.


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

I turned my smaller kid around at 2.5. He really was too small for my comfort (he's a 10% height/weight kid) but he developed car sickness. During a vacation trip he puked three times going through the mountains and at that point we turned him. I might have done it sooner had I realized his occasional vomitting in the car was motion sickness. He has other health issues and I just didn't put it together until that trip. In retrospect he was probably nauseous a lot. He's had no problems forward facing.

His twin stayed rear facing until the limits of his seat and he was maybe 3.5...I don't remember exactly but significantly older. He's my bigger kid as well.


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## kimmypoo (Mar 6, 2009)

Thanks for all the input. She hasn't fussed in her carseat once in the past few days, so maybe it was just a phase. I will definately keep her rf for as long as possible. Is there a website or something I can tell my ped about so he can have the correct info about this?


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

How about the AAP (american Academy of Pediatrics), also known as your docs governing body?
http://aapnews.aappublications.org/c...0/4/12-a?rss=1


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