# Would you get divorced over it?



## girl138 (Sep 30, 2005)

I am losing my mind over this. I found out a few weeks ago that my husband and I are expecting a boy and ever since that moment I have been absolutely terrified of confronting my husband about it.

I can't even bear the idea of it and he is dead set on having the baby circumcized. He is usually the sweetest person, but when it comes to this he is "putting his foot down" and refuses to even listen to reason.

You have to take into consideration that we were both raised jewish, and he feels as though it is important in that respect.

The thing is, I just don't have faith anymore. When our daughter died this June i lost any and all faith that I ever had ... and I am so afraid of this procedure for our little peanut. what if something went wrong? i am so scared and i feel so alone. i don't understand how he could be willing to take this risk after everything that we have been through.

i know that this is going to be the end of us if i don't give in, and still i don't want to.

i just don't know what to say or do. he won't even hear me out.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Oh, Jenna, I was going to say something facetious like "you can always get another husband but circ is irreversible" but that wouldn't tell you how sorry I am that your daughter died. I know how scary the next pregnancy is and how you hold your breath, afraid to hope that a live baby will nurse at your breast.

Get your courage up and tell your husband how scared you are. He's scared, too, and you've been through so much together. I think pictures are the quickest, fastest way to convince people. Get the book "Just Say "No" to Circ". Show him the Jewish Circ website. Let him know that many wise Jewish people, including Alan Alda (actor), campaign for intact genitalia. He'd probably be impressed with the Doctors Opposing Circumcision website, too. Blessings to you,
Baybee


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

You are due on my son's second birthday! I'm sorry you are in such a difficult spot. I can't imagine the grief you are going through after losing a child. If your DH won't hear you out, write him a note explaining how you feel, then he can't interrupt you. If it comes down to it, you can get a court order protecting your son from circumcision. It has happened before, I think Frank has information on that. I had to argue with DH a long time before he finally came around. DH just needed a lot of information to convince him to change his mind.

Listen to your gut instinct. If you have a bad feeling about something, don't do it to your child. There is no medical reason for circumcision. Your baby is depending on you to protect him.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I will be







: for your family.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

{{{mama}}} I'm so sorry for your loss of your baby girl.

My dh gave me a lot of grief over our first dd's name. He was a total horse's butt about it. He told me that he would choose the name by himself and not tell me the name until after the paperwork was done. He figured that I would be "out of it" right after the birth and that would give him the opportunity. We fought about this bitterly, as you can well imagine, for weeks -- torture for a pregnant woman, but not like facing circumcision.

Anyway, I got so upset that I called the hospital and found out that I could just put "unknown" or something like that for the father's name. In other words, if he continued to push his outrageous demand, I could just say he was not the father and that he had no right to fill out the paperwork. When I put it to him that way, dh backed down and admitted that the name he selected was one he knew I would hate. I did hate it -- it was a feminization of his nephew's name, chosen to please his mother. Not even a real name, a made up name with an ending. So it was even more horrible than you can imagine. He was willing to freak out his pregnant wife and do something totally bizarre to make his mother happy? Let's not even go there.

I'm not suggesting you do that, but it is something to remember. He has to prove that this baby is his son.

Would he really divorce you for not circumcising your son? If so, then he is really bullying you on this.

I admit that I do not understand the Jewish angle at all, plus I have two daughters, so I don't even understand the boy angle.

I hope it goes well.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

's to you!

tell your dh your fears and that if your ds wants to be circ'd for religious reasons, he can always do it later in life when he's old enough to make both body modification and spiritual choices for himself.

love and peace.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

I wanted to give you support, and not freak you out at first, so I didn't answer the original question. Well, my answer would be yes. If the only way to protect my son from circumcision was to get a divorce, yes, I would get a divorce. Happily, it will rarely get to that point for any couple. You two have a long time to talk about it. Also, don't let your families gang up on you. If they are Jewish, like you said, don't even bring it up to them.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

You've got awhile to "work" on him before things get as drastic as divorce.

In my state, if you are married, you MUST put your husband's name on the birth certificate, even if you (and he!) say it's not biologically his kid. It's an archaic law written in the days before DNA testing, but still very much in effect.

If he's pushing for a hospital circ, you are the one in control there. The father doesn't get to do anything with the babe without your say-so until you guys get the certificate and leave the hospital.

As far as his finding a mohel, I'd do some research on whether a mohel will or can do a circ over the mother's objections. Although nothing prevents your DH from from scheduling a circ appointment with a doctor's office after the birth.







But the longer you can delay this, the harder it is to get it done.

In the end, knowing what I do now, I WOULD divorce over circumcision. I couldn't stay with a man who insisted on cutting off part of my baby for no good reason... not only would it permanently damage my baby, it would also poison our marriage.

But it's not easy to leave a man when you are newly postpartum or pregnant. Luckily, you have some time to work with until then.

Hang in there, mama. Give your DH information, talk to him about your faith (or lack thereof), get to the bottom of what he believes and why. Sometimes, there is no resolving religious issues within a marriage. And sometimes you can agree to disagree.

But sometimes, you can't.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Yes. No question. There is no way that I would even WANT to stay married to a man that would force me to do that to my child.

Listen to your instincts, they are there for a reason, there are so many mothers in the sticky regretting what they did, please don't let the next be you...

There was another Jewish mother, called Sommer, who felt the same way earlier this year, she was having nightmares about the Bris, and the whole family ganged up on her, so she let it go ahead.

Here is her story:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=286940

And how she felt after she allowed it to happen:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=319269

I hope that you manage to resolve things before they get to the divorce stage though, it must be rotten to be in such a state when it should be such a time of joy.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I remember that poster, and was just thinking of her and her babe.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I would divorce over it because it's abuse IMO... hopefully it won't get to that point for you though....

love and peace.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I don't see how divorcing your husband is going to solve the problem. A divorced man could still get his son circumcized without your consent, right? You're going to have to talk to him, educate him about the procedure, and hope you can bring him around.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I am so sorry for your loss...
No, I wouldn't divorce over it. Take my son's father away & shake up everyones life over this?? No. I also wouldn't circ. By divorcing you're also making it easier for him. As long as my baby doesn't leave me - he stays intact.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Oh Jenna, I am so sorry for the loss of your beautiful daughter Jordanna. I just looked at your memorial website and she was the most enchanting little girl! My heart is breaking for you.









I cannot even fathom the pain you are going through, having lost your daughter and now facing your dh on the circ issue. Have you sat down and talked to him about it, not trying to change his mind per se but just letting it all pour out about how you feel about circumcision and about protecting your baby boy on the way?

I don't think divorce is going to prevent your son from being circed if your dh is bound and determined to do it- sadly it has happened that a father who was never even married to the boy's mother was able to get a court to deny a motion for a protective order to prevent him being circumcised. The courts are really not going to step in where it's a question of religious practice, too.

That doesn't mean you can't let your dh know how serious you are about the issue, but I think the best bet is clearly communicating to him how strongly you feel about it, and making him read the research about it, and letting him know he does not have the right and your permission to harm your newborn baby.

I am so sorry you are facing this horribly traumatic issue. No one should ever have to face this pressure on top of the loss of a child.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Here's a website for you: www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

s to you Momma! Both for your lost babe and the turmoil that your family is in now concerning your baby-boy-to-be. It should be such a happy time for you, expecting a son and like many others it is tainted by the pressure from your dh concerning circumcision







. I really wish it just wasn't an option.

In regards to your question, no I would not initiate a divorce over circumcision. I would never allow it to happen(circumcision) to a son of mine but if my dh was that adament that he would be circumcised that he would divorce me, so be it. If he had so little respect for me that he would leave me because of a compelling need to put a scar on my child, I wouldn't want him to be in my life anyway.

If there is any way you think you could reach him, let us know. There are plenty of resources in the sticky "Web Resources" at the top of the forum that might strike a chord with him. If he has any specific concerns that we could help you find resources to adress, please ask. You have tons of support here.

Take care,
Tara
















:


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm so sorry you are having to go through this after your loss.







he should at least have enough respect for you to hear your opinion and consider it. Maybe you could write him a letter? sometimes that works better with my dp. Include the reasons you simply cannot have this done to your son.

Does he want to have it done in the hospital? I've had friends say the had it done b/c they are Jewish and yet did they have a bris? no. they had it done in the hospital which hold no religious meaning whatsoever.

to answer your question, yes I would get divorced over it. I would give my life to protect my son from the extreme pain and lifelong sexual damage of circumcision. I could not live or love someone who wanted to mutilate my son- I would have no choice but to leave.

I would tell my husband that he had to choose- did he want me to stay and have in intact son or did he want us to leave?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
:
In regards to your question, no I would not initiate a divorce over circumcision. I would never allow it to happen(circumcision) to a son of mine but if my dh was that adament that he would be circumcised that he would divorce me, so be it.







:









:

and ps- my dh is also jewish. he didn't stop being jewish when he refused to get our sons cut. my sons are still jewish in the bosom of our extended family, gentile mama or not. let him know this doesn't have to be this way.


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## MAMom (Mar 24, 2005)

Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf














Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Yes, in fact I told him so when I was 5 mos pg with ds1 and dh and I had a screaming argument about our first child being circumcised or not. I told him I would leave him and he would never see the baby if he insisted on this. This made him see how serious I was and he finally agreed to read the material I had. The material changed his mind.

Regarding putting your husband's name on the birth certificate: most states presume that a child BORN while parents are married is issue of the marriage (is the husband's child). But, if you divorced before the child was born, you would not have to put dh on the birth certificate. I had a case like this once.

I know it is tough. Your dh is operating under some delusions: 1, that an uncircumcised child is not Jewish. This is simply not true, and rabbis say so. 2, that circumcision is healthful. Again, not true. Circumcision removes healthy and happy flesh. 3, that he was circ'ed and he is fine. Again, simply not true. Did you know victims of female circumcision in Africa say that they have good sex lives and orgasm without having clitorises? Yet would you choose to live without yours? Of course not. Yet your dh is missing the best part of his penis and so he is not qualified to say that it is okay to not have it. He doesn't even know.

Saying something louder and not listening to the other side does not make a person right. In fact, if he is unable to listen to your side, then that means his side is very weak. If he had good reasons to circumcise your child, he would be able to present them to you and not be worried. But he can't, and no matter what he finds to argue for circumcision, there will always be a better reason not to. Tell us what he says and we will tell you the answers.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter. I hear that when people lose a child, the liklihood of divorce goes way up. Could his refusal to put off the circ be a projection of this?

My SO is Muslim and I've made it clear that if we ever have a son there will be no one cutting my baby. But I don't know if he's really thinking about it since we're not planning.

Still, if he did it against my wishes, I don't think I'd leave him. I'd hate him for a long time, though. If he did it, it would be out of (misguided IMO) love. I think if we ever do end up pregnant, I'll insist that we let the child decide.

I hope the two of you can stay together despite the tragic loss of your baby. Please get counselling if you haven't already. It might save the marriage.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Oh, sweetie, I just read your websites.





















I know you have it in you to fight for your son's right to bodily integrity. Just never, ever, ever let anyone take him out of your arms. Be ready to kick scream and bite. It is absolutely your right to do whatever it takes to protect your baby. Get in touch with your mama bear self.


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## girl138 (Sep 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MAMom*
Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf














Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud


Thank you so much for all of those links. I just emailed them to him - I just hope that he looks.

I have mde up my mind that there is no way he is going to bully me into this, no matter what the costs.

I know in my heart that our marriage would be over the minute a hand was laid on this baby anyway - and better that he have a broken home and be intact than have a broken home and be circ.

Thank you all so much for the support. We keep a pregnancy journal and the comments have been piling up there as well - and i KNOW that he reads those... so I just hope that something clicks in his head before April.

If you have a moment to leave your thoguhts for him to see, I would be very greatful.

warmly,
jenna

www.girl138.com/peanut


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I left a comment on your blog.

My heart goes out to you, for the loss of your daughter, and for the fear you have right now. Your son is due on my birthday








I know this is hard, but you have to stand up for your son. You have to be his voice while he has none.
Let us know your husband's reaction to the links.

And for the record, yes, I would get a divorce over the issue. If I allowed myself to be bullied by him, or if he had it done while knowing my feelings on it, I would resent him for the rest of my life. I couldn't get over something like that. I would have to go.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Jenna, here's an article for you (not your dh) to read, that may help you understand where he's coming from:

Vincent Bach on the Vulnerability of Men

I am sure your dh doesn't want to cause you or your baby any pain, but he's probably got a lot of layers of denial covering any ability to recognize that circumcision is painful and unnecessary. There's at least three layers of denial:

1) That his/your religion requires it and therefore it's got to be fine because Jews have been circing for several thousand years.

2) That his parents had him circed and he probably doesn't want to think they could ever have done anything to harm him.

3) That he is circed and is therefore missing the most sensitive part of his penis. No man alive wants to admit that his penis is anything less than 100% operational.

I didn't have to deal with the religious aspect but I do have a circed dh who, after reading what I've told him to read and watching the video STILL thinks that "well, circ isn't the worst thing that could happen to a baby and it's a parent's right." He didn't fight me on circing our son and wouldn't circ any future sons if I were to die tomorrow and he were to remarry, he advocated to try to keep our nephew from getting circed by talking to my BIL and SIL....but he still at some fundamental level just. doesn't. get. it. The denial that a) his parents could have done something harmful to him and b) that his penis is anything less than it could or should be is still SO deep, even after 3.5 years of hearing me rant and rave about circ.

I am not saying for one second you should give in on the circ issue, but try listening to your dh with compassion for the baby he was getting circed against his will and the man he is hearing (implicitly) that there's something "less than" about his penis and you may be able to find the way to his heart on this issue, short of pulling out the big guns of "I'm leaving."

I wish I could help ease your burden on this. No pregnant woman should have to go through this trauma, let alone you, pregnant and grieving at the same time. Please be very gentle with yourself right now. It's OK even to take a break from the issue for a little while if it's making you too sad or mad or crazy. Whatever you need to do for yourself, do.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

It sounds like you are going through such a very difficult time. Maybe you and your husband could see someone together? I can not imagine how frightened and anxious and excited you both must be to receive this child after you lost your daughter.

You both are probably not able to clearly hear oneanother on this topic as it can be so hard for couples to come eye to eye when feeling so fearful.

I think that if you can see someone together to help you both communicate and hear he may come to see how important this issue is for you. To answer the question of divorce, I do not see circ as a reason to divorce. But I do think that the pattern of not listening to what you are saying or understanding your fear could be really isolating and could lead to divorce. My hubby and I do not fundamentally agree about circ, however he knows that I feel very very strongly about not circumcising. Because he loves me and because he knows how important the issue is to me he will not have the children circed.

We had to leave the topic for a while ourselves. I would say deal with the communication and Isolation and he will probably come around.

Im sorry, it must be so hard to be missing your daughter, welcoming a new child, and dealing with this.

hang in there mama.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

This is a hypothetical question that was not hypothetical for me.

I was engaged to be married to a wonderful woman in June, 2002. She had a grandson that was born in Oct., 2001. I fought intensely before he was born not to have him circumcised but the Mother (future DIL) would hear nothing of it. She would even hang up on my phone calls, wouldn't read links or printed material I sent her. I knew that she would never be a welcome guest in my home. From before his birth to March, 2002, when I ended the engagement, my fiance' and I fought bitterly over this. This was the third fight we had had in almost 6 years of being together and the only one that lasted more than a couple of days. She still has not seen the light and I suspect she never will. I can not be married to a woman like that and will not. We are still friends but we carefully avoid bringing up the subject but marriage or any kind of intimate relationship is completely off the table and not up for discussion.

As intensely as I feel about this issue, I don't think I could have a meaninful relationship with a woman who didn't have the same stance.

Frank


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I am not Jewish but my DH tried to use the excuse "It is a tradition in my family to circ" to which I replied "It is not a tradition, it is because they didn't know NOT to do it!!"

But yes, I would leave my DH to protect my son from circing. The needs of my child come before the wants of my husband every day of the year. DH knows this and though he is not happy about the not circing thing, he didn't argue with me about it. I told him I was seriously concerned that he could send his son to have comestic surgery without pain relief so flippantly.


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

I would divorce over this. Well, if I knew before-hand that the fellow was dead-set on cutting the genitals of our future babies, the wedding would be off, no doubt.

I left a comment on your journal - don't back down on this, Mama, you can protect Peanut!

-Kira


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

NO I would not divorce over it. An intact penis is important but an intact family and peace in the home is far more important. Also your dh will no doubt get 50/50 custody and have full rights to seek medical treatment. If it is important enough for your dh to accept a divorce it will be importqant enough for him to march your son right down to the Dr. office and have it done the first visitation he has. what makes you think the judge will be anti-circ enough to issue some sort of decree that you win this one? It is a big risk to stake your marriage on when in the end your son will probably still end up circ'ed. And whos to even say you will get 50/50 custody. Your dh may get full custody and you get stuck with crappy visitation. Circ is not a crime, not considered abuse legally, You would be the one walking out, breaking up the family over an opinion about your sons religous upbringing (which is likely what this will be considered). it is likely that if you walk over this you may lose more than your sons forskin. Just really think about what is important before deciding this is worth divorcing over. it isn't garunteed that you and your son would get to go off and live a happy little life together. it could cost you everything. I am not trying to scare you but this is not your son./ This is you and your husbands son. You both are on equal footing legally and you both have just as much chance of getting custody of him. and you both get to choose whathappens to him in his upbringing.

I agree you should seek counseling.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Lilyka, by 50/50 custody, do you mean in terms of decision making? This is called joint custody and yes, it is often awarded by the courts. "Shared custody," or having the child live equally in two homes, is done more rarely. Around here it is not done unless both parties agree, as having the child live in one primary residence is considered to be a more stable option.

In a joint custody arrangement, which is what my babydaddy and I have, my understanding is that both parties have to agree about major issues, such as education, religion, health care. In my agreement, if I were seeking a medical procedure, such as circumcision for my child, my babydaddy would have to agree. If he did not, we would have to go to court to figure it out.

Let's not scare the crap out of this mother with information that is not accurate, shall we?

Ftr, I am not the world's biggest "intactivist," and a lot of the stuff in this forum I find borderline offensive. But I would not allow my child's foreskin to be cut off. And yes I would divorce over it.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I would not cut a part of my baby off for marital harmony. If my dh did it behind my back our relationship would be over. How could I stay with a man who would do that to our baby and against my wishes? So yes I would divorce over circumcision, not violating my babies body is that important to me.
I truly hope your dh will realize how important keeping your baby whole is to you and will do his own research and ultimately agree with you. Much much luck to you!!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am just saying divorce does not even come close to meaning she will defintiely get her way. It is not a solution to this. You don't just walk away from a parent who has equal rights or could posible get more rights in a custody situation. Daddy and his opinions, rights and what not do not just disappear. Yet people are talking like a divore would automatically protect the child somehow. All i see is it making a child more vunreable. Calling an end to the marriage in no ways garuntees the baby won't get cicumcised. It garuntees nothing. She can't even garuntee she will get custody. It is evey bit as likely that a judge will decide in favor of the dad. What after all has the dad done that is so out of the ordinary? Divorce, sharing your child, loosing the measure of control is scary.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm so sorry for your loss!

On very rare occasions, babies do die after circ due to the loss of blood. So, you have every right to be concerned.

You asked if I would get divorced over it--yes, if it came to that. But first I would just say IT WILL NOT HAPPEN, OVER MY DEAD BODY, and let a divorce happen if it came to that, but I wouldn't actively push for a divorce except as a last resort.

Once your dh sees that you ABSOLUTELY MEAN IT, and you WOULD be willing to get divorced over it, he'll most likely back down.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree with a lot of the others. An intact penis is important, but an intact family is far more important. I grew up with a very broken family and it's had lasting effects. DH grew up with a circumcised penis and couldn't care less about it (though he does agree that we won't circ. our sons). I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised, especially, since in your husband's mind it's for a religious reason.

I think your situation is very hard. Maybe once you explain to your husband the negative effects of it, and that some children do die from it, although it's very very rare, that that terrifies you, and that you just cannot make yourself do it right now. Talk to him possibly about waiting until the child is older (by then would he forget about it, or lose interest in getting it done?), or some alternative.

I'll definitely keep your family in my prayers. Hopefully you and your husband can come to the right decision for your family together!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23*
An intact penis is important, but an intact family is far more important.

I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised, especially, since in your husband's mind it's for a religious reason.

Exactly!! That sums it up perfectly!!


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## girl138 (Sep 30, 2005)

I just feel like i need to clarify something. I would not threaten or want to get a divorce - ever. It's just that when I try to discuss my opposition to this with my husband he threatens me that it will be the end of our marriage if i don't fold.

honestly, i don't care anymore. i am not willing to risk the health of this baby for anything. i can't bring myself to do that no matter what the cost, not after losing my Jordana.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girl138*
I just feel like i need to clarify something. I would not threaten or want to get a divorce - ever. It's just that when I try to discuss my opposition to this with my husband he threatens me that it will be the end of our marriage if i don't fold.

honestly, i don't care anymore. i am not willing to risk the health of this baby for anything. i can't bring myself to do that no matter what the cost, not after losing my Jordana.


I am so sorry you lost your precious daughter. I am also very sorry your dh is trying to bully you into circing your son, that is just not right. You and your son will be in my thoughts.









As soon as my dh violated our son our family would no longer be intact anyway . My marriage would be over wether I physically left or not.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23*
I agree with a lot of the others. An intact penis is important, but an intact family is far more important. I grew up with a very broken family and it's had lasting effects. DH grew up with a circumcised penis and couldn't care less about it (though he does agree that we won't circ. our sons). I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised, especially, since in your husband's mind it's for a religious reason.

I think your situation is very hard. Maybe once you explain to your husband the negative effects of it, and that some children do die from it, although it's very very rare, that that terrifies you, and that you just cannot make yourself do it right now. Talk to him possibly about waiting until the child is older (by then would he forget about it, or lose interest in getting it done?), or some alternative.

I'll definitely keep your family in my prayers. Hopefully you and your husband can come to the right decision for your family together!

I would just like to point out here that being in an intact family where both parents constantly fight and appear to hate each other is also very very damaging. I grew up in such a family, with parents that constantly fought, with a mother who wouldn't leave (and I so wished she would), and it ended up with me having to leave home the day after I left school to get away from them (I had other issues with them as well as all the rows and fighting).

If you and your husband end up with the kind of poisoned marriage that my parents had, because of this, it will do neither of you, or your son, any good to stay together.

I'd also like to say that I don't believe that any court will give full custody of a newborn to the father, particularly if the mother is breastfeeding, unless she can be proven to be unfit, and I don't believe that this would be the case.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

I'm so sorry for the loss of your precious little girl. Many hugs to you.

Quote:

better that he have a broken home and be intact than have a broken home and be circ.
I agree totally, and I'm so glad you came to this decision. Divorce should never be taken lightly, but as Getz said, the needs of a child should come before the wants of its father.

Quote:

Circ is not a crime, not considered abuse legally
I feel that this sentence is missing two words and should read "circ is not a crime, not considered abuse legally in America. The rest of the world feels differently and many countries have classified it as legal abuse (RIC is illegal in Sweden).

Girl 138, my thoughts are with you. You've been through enough already - I'm upset that your husband would threaten to divorce if you don't comply with his demands. He should be supporting you after your terrible loss - not making you feel worse.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk*
I'd also like to say that I don't believe that any court will give full custody of a newborn to the father, particularly if the mother is breastfeeding, unless she can be proven to be unfit, and I don't believe that this would be the case.

yep- here in GA I believe mom gets automatic full custody of any child under 4 unless there are some serious grounds for her being unfit.

I really hope you don't have to go through a divorce after all you've been through...I hope he can calm down enough and stop putting his foot down long enough to listen to fact and reason. He is showing you no respect by being so unwilling to consider your views and very valid emotions about the risk to your son.

But if it does come to a divorce- if it were me I would get divorced before the baby was born, not put him on the birth certificate, move somewhere he couldn't find me, and that would be it.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

First, so so sorry about the loss of your Jordanna. I understand your concern about your new son, I had the same for mine. ***hugs***

You have a lot of time to work on your DH.
I think the first thing you need to do is stop looking at the big picture. If he is the one bringing up the divorce issue, you need to say, "Are you going to divorce me for talking with you about circ?" Even if he says yes, he's not going to. (If he says yes, you can always ask him to draw up the papers and when he declines, you can discuss it anyways.)

Then you have to hit him with every bit of information you have. I would start with the cases where children have died during circ and go from there.

Good luck... when he has specific concerns you can post them here. I was where you were just a few months ago so I feel your pain.

I do believe that an intact family is more important than the circumcision issue, but a fighting family is also bad, and a guilty resentful mom==as many here will tell you they were after being convinced to circ is not going to be the best mom either.

But don't think about that yet. Think about divorce if you're going into labor and the issue isn't resolved yet. Look at the little pictures for now.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23*
I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised

Why is this framed as the mama "taking away" the father, rather than the father taking himself away? Especially since the OP says it is her husband who threatened her, not the other way around. She's just thinking about whether to allow him to make good on his threat, or cave and get her son circed.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

ITA, thismama.

Also, I didn't answer the question. Would I get divorced over it? Yes.


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

Big hugs to you mama. I hope your dh is just trying to scare you into agreeing to circ and wouldn't leave you over it.

My dh and I are both Jewish, and were both raised in fairly observant Jewish homes - his more observant than mine. When I found out I was having a boy, I knew we had a tough road ahead. He was dead-set, 100% certain we were going to have a bris. I was just as sure we wouldn't.

We talked and talked and screamed and threatened and flipped out for months. It was completely unproductive. So, I gave him a lot of literature and asked him to read it. I gave him the Mothering circ issue, the AAP statement, NOCIRC, Jews Against Circumcision, Ron Goldman's book, everything I could find. And more importantly, I told him I would read and consider all credible information he could find supporting circumcision.

I don't know how much he read (I know he read some of it, and I know he called our pediatrician and spoke to him) but I do know he came up to me and said he couldn't find anything to support his cause. He admitted that the main reason he wanted to circ was because his parents would be hysterical, and he was embarassed to admit he wasn't going to get his own way.

So, at least we had something to talk about - his real feelings. We spoke to two rabbi's, and they assured us my son would be Jewish. And I told my husband that all I wanted to do was leave my son's option's open to him. If he ever wants to be circumcised for religious or any other reason, he will have my blessing. But it's his choice. Not mine, not dh's, not dh's mother. That's it. Plain and simple.

He was embarassed, and his parents were beyond hysterical. So were mine. So were much of the Jewish community we're involved in. I don't care. He's my son - I carried him for 9 months, breastfed him exclusively, carried him everywhere, and protect him in all ways. There's nothing that will convince me that a protective loving parent (but especially a mom) will allow her child to be circumcised as an infant who can't defend themselves.

Society and Judaism are beginning to question circumcision. Tell your dh you are leaving your son perfect - the way G-d made him - until he's old enough to make an informed decision. If he's truly going to leave you and your son because of that, I'd have to say it doesn't sound like a huge loss. I'm not saying that flippantly or lightly. I can't begin to understand a man who feels that way.

I am so sorry for your previous loss. I can't being to imagine the pain you and your family has been through. And now, what's supposed to be a joyous time is a mess. You don't deserve.

Tell your dh you want him to stand up and defend you and your son - it's one of the reasons you married him. You won't ever be sorry you left your son intact. You may regret circumcision forever.

Good luck! Keep us informed!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girl138*
I just feel like i need to clarify something. I would not threaten or want to get a divorce - ever. It's just that when I try to discuss my opposition to this with my husband he threatens me that it will be the end of our marriage if i don't fold.

honestly, i don't care anymore. i am not willing to risk the health of this baby for anything. i can't bring myself to do that no matter what the cost, not after losing my Jordana.

OMG, Jenna, that is an outrageous amount of pressure to put on a pregnant woman who just lost her precious baby girl. That threat, in and of itself, says a lot. I wish I had the money to buy you a month long vacation somewhere so you could just get away by yourself to think without this sort of emotional torture.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Jenna







:

Zaftigmama's post is so good. I hope it can help you.
I'm so sorry about Jordana.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Jenna,










I read Jordana's webpage. I am so sorry about the loss of your little girl. Such a sad, sad story.

best,
~Nay


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Since I veiw circ as abuse. If he read everything I have and listened to my wishes but then insisted on circing then yes I would leave him. Since there is no way I could stay with a man who insistes upon abusing a helpless baby.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

I just wanted to give the OP (((Hugs))) and to let her know that I did try to post a comment to her blog wishing her peace and healing, as well as providing my own insights and TONS of pro-intact religion-specific links. It never made it through moderation, I'm not sure why.

If anyone wants that list of links, feel free to PM. 

Jen


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Hugs to the OP. Your life has not been easy lately, I can tell.

Personally, I was not willing to have my son circed "over my dead body". It didn't come to that, thank goodness. After my dh read the stuff the Bradley teacher gave him, he came my way fast. I am so grateful. But yes, I think divorce would have been an option.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

to the OP.

I just have to say I'm SHOCKED that here of all places there are so many people who would allow their child to be maimed and mutilated to keep another adult happy. If I was married to that selfish and barbaric of a man I would be glad to know that now and dump him so fast his head would spin.

-Angela


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

You know, I hate to think that the OP's DH would truly divorce her if his son was left intact. It seems to me that this might have been something he said in the heat of the moment, and either they haven't talked about it enough for him to retract the statement, or he feels like he's boxed in a corner and cannot back down without "losing face". I don't know anything about the man, but I want to try to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After what your family has been through, I want to see some peace and harmony in the household! Surely your DH can see that you need that.

Let's give him a chance to read the links, and see what he has to say.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*

As soon as my dh violated our son our family would no longer be intact anyway . My marriage would be over wether I physically left or not.


Yup. Exactly.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I don't know whether I'll divorce DH or not.

I'd think about after I am done charging with all my might, Post Partum or not at ANYBODY who approaches my healthy newborn with a knife and intention of cutting him.

Don't care if that buchering is given a PC (Politically Correct) name


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## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
As soon as my dh violated our son our family would no longer be intact anyway . My marriage would be over wether I physically left or not.

ITA.

For the record, I believe still in some states you can't get a divorce if you're pregnant, you have to wait until after the baby is born. ACLU is fighting this law, but it is still in effect in many states.

And yes, I would *let my husband leave* over circumcision, I would never initiate a divorce simply because it'd make me look bad when it came to custody fights, but I'd sure as hell hold the door open for him while he left!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Your dh isn't wiling to talk about it because he knows he won't be heard so why bother. You are not even remotely intrested in listening to what his reasons for wanting to circ are because it isn't going to happen regardless of how important it is to him or why. And you are so stuck on "this is never going to happen" that you don't even care how he feels about it. You don't want to talk to him you want to convince him. Understandable? absolutely. conducive to positive communication? no way. Likely to cause a pattern of behavior even if you get your way? absolutely. And it is likely to crop up all over the place any time you disagree about parenting. What a mess. This is definitely something you guys need to seek outside profesional help over. Beyond circumcission you guys need to address the poor communication issues. Either way one of you are going to lose on this and the one who loses needs to learn how to grieve thier loss in ah ealthy unresentful way and the other person needs to learn how to respect why it was important to them and actually hear the losers pain and be compassionate towards that loss even if they can't agree on what was best.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't necessarily agree with lilyka on the reasons why your husband is shooting down any discussion because I'm not part of your marriage and I can't know. I do agree with her, though, that professional help sounds like a necessity. Can you all do counseling together (if you are not already)? Preferably with someone who does not have a vested interest in your faith?

I'm so sorry for what you've been through and what you are having to experience now. And I am in awe of your strength.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
Your dh isn't wiling to talk about it because he knows he won't be heard so why bother. You are not even remotely intrested in listening to what his reasons for wanting to circ are because it isn't going to happen regardless of how important it is to him or why. And you are so stuck on "this is never going to happen" that you don't even care how he feels about it. You don't want to talk to him you want to convince him. Understandable? absolutely. conducive to positive communication? no way. Likely to cause a pattern of behavior even if you get your way? absolutely. And it is likely to crop up all over the place any time you disagree about parenting. What a mess. This is definitely something you guys need to seek outside profesional help over. Beyond circumcission you guys need to address the poor communication issues. Either way one of you are going to lose on this and the one who loses needs to learn how to grieve thier loss in ah ealthy unresentful way and the other person needs to learn how to respect why it was important to them and actually hear the losers pain and be compassionate towards that loss even if they can't agree on what was best.

As much as I disagree that circ is like any other argument I have to take your point. If you're not listening to your dh's reasons for wanting circ, why should he listen to yours for not wanting it? Of course we know in our heart's that intact is better and we know we are better educated than DH is on this subject, but I remember I did give him a chance to speak his mind on the subject. I didn't interrupt, I just let him go through his reasons. Then I went through what I'd learned here and on other anti circ sites. He didn't change his mind that day I think it planted the seeds for him to change his mind in a month or so because his reasons didn't make sense.


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

I don't know what I would do. My DH was strongly in favor of circing, but during the course of my pregnancy I was able to talk him out of it. We're not Jewish, though. I do know one Jewish woman who said if she ever had a boy (she didn't) it would be the end of her marriage.

I don't know that I would divorce my husband over it, but our inability to come to an agreement would severely strain our marriage, even more than the procedure. I can say that even though I circed my first two boys without a second thought (not our third).

You'll be in my prayers. I hope the two of you are able to reach an agreement on this. And I am sorry about the loss of your daughter. FWIW (and I am adamantly against circumcision) it's my understanding that a bris is less traumatic than a western circ, and done in a loving atmosphere.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girl138*
I know in my heart that our marriage would be over the minute a hand was laid on this baby anyway - and better that he have a broken home and be intact than have a broken home and be circ.

I still don't see how divorcing your husband will save your son's foreskin. Won't your then ex-husband just do it without you? Or are you planning to kidnap your son and never let him see his dad again? I really think you're going to have to get him to change his mind, otherwise he'll do it anyway.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Just for the record, I was not saying her dh could possible have good reason, nor am I defending any reason. There is no such thing as a religous reason outside of a person actively practicing said religon.

I would recommend however just listening to him. let him share his reasons without stating yours. (for now) just give him the floor, listen to him, let him be heard and let him know that you will take his feelings into consideration. Then at another time bring the topic back up with your reasons etc. he might be more willing to listen. Especially ify ou can understand where he is coming from. "I know this is important to your family . . .I love your penis just how it is. . . I know this will help you feel more connected to your spiritual heritage . . whatever whatever. would you be willing to read this one article, watch this video together, talk to the Dr. together (pre interviewed and on your side of course), ask questions, etc . . ". No need to insist in anything until your baby is born. let him have the room to learn and decide rather than digging in his heals to win (not defending this behavior but some people just get this way regardless of immature it is).


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
I still don't see how divorcing your husband will save your son's foreskin. Won't your then ex-husband just do it without you? Or are you planning to kidnap your son and never let him see his dad again? I really think you're going to have to get him to change his mind, otherwise he'll do it anyway.


WORST CASE SCENARIO........... You get divorced and dh gets the circumcision done anyway. BUT at least you didn't stay married (giving your heart, body, and soul) to the jackass who abused your son.

Again, that's the absolute WORST case scenario, which I don't see happening. More realistically, either the dh will back down or the divorce will happen and ds will stay intact.

Additionally, most doctors will be reluctant to do a "just because" circ as the child gets beyond 6 months (because then it requires anesthesia, etc.), so it will become progressively harder for the dad to get it done.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
WORST CASE SCENARIO........... You get divorced and dh gets the circumcision done anyway. BUT at least you didn't stay married (giving your heart, body, and soul) to the jackass who abused your son.

Again, that's the absolute WORST case scenario, which I don't see happening. More realistically, either the dh will back down or the divorce will happen and ds will stay intact.

Additionally, most doctors will be reluctant to do a "just because" circ as the child gets beyond 6 months (because then it requires anesthesia, etc.), so it will become progressively harder for the dad to get it done.

I disagree that the worst case scenario is unlikely. If he's willing to allow her to divorce over it, he'll be getting it done with or without her; and a doctor doesn't have to be involved, although I"m sure there are many pediatricians who'd do it no questions asked. I've known women who were told by pedis that their son's this, that, or the other problem was caused by being intact and have recommended that their toddlers get circumcised. There are a lot of people who are extremely pro circumcision. That's why I think she should work directly on educating her husband to bring him to her side.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
I still don't see how divorcing your husband will save your son's foreskin. Won't your then ex-husband just do it without you? Or are you planning to kidnap your son and never let him see his dad again? I really think you're going to have to get him to change his mind, otherwise he'll do it anyway.


Respectfully, I think you're missing the point. The point, as it seems to me, is not that she would be divorcing her husband because it's the way to save her son's foreskin. It's more that the divorce would be a result of the loss of trust and love for a person who could bully her into such a decision and take that sort of action against her child.

I know if I were married it would have a horrible time surviving something like that even without having gone through everything this mama has already experienced.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Respectfully, I think you're missing the point. The point, as it seems to me, is not that she would be divorcing her husband because it's the way to save her son's foreskin. It's more that the divorce would be a result of the loss of trust and love for a person who could bully her into such a decision and take that sort of action against her child.

I know if I were married it would have a horrible time surviving something like that even without having gone through everything this mama has already experienced.

You're right. I really thought the point was to save her son's penis from mutilation.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Yes, I think if my husband issued a threat/ultimatum like that, over my heartfelt, researched opposition...

Circumcision is not something that can be undone. It is my job to protect my children.

You are not choosing divorce. Your husband is.


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## girl138 (Sep 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
As much as I disagree that circ is like any other argument I have to take your point. If you're not listening to your dh's reasons for wanting circ, why should he listen to yours for not wanting it? Of course we know in our heart's that intact is better and we know we are better educated than DH is on this subject, but I remember I did give him a chance to speak his mind on the subject. I didn't interrupt, I just let him go through his reasons. Then I went through what I'd learned here and on other anti circ sites. He didn't change his mind that day I think it planted the seeds for him to change his mind in a month or so because his reasons didn't make sense.

his reasoning is that "his family will freak"

and to be honest, i am being pig headed on this and i acknowledge that. i am AFRAID of what could happen. and if you were me you would risk everything to keep your baby SAFE too.


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## girl138 (Sep 30, 2005)

oh - and i said somewhere in this mess that i do not want a divorce nor would i ever ask for one. i was told BY MY HUSBAND that if i didn't allow a circumcision to APPEASE HIS FAMILY then we would end up divorced.

initially i wanted to know if i was crazy for standing my ground on the topic after that threat.... now, i don't CARE what anyone thinks. i AM standing my ground.

and by the way: he dropped it. haven't heard a word from him about it since i emailed him all of those links and the video - so who knows. maybe he will come around after all.

i'll tell you one thing - we aren't fighing and he is being his usual sweet self to me again.

and again - thank you ALL for your input. i was feeling very alone when i made this post and hearing all of your opinions helped me a lot.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I spent some time reading your blog....you are one awesome mama.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
You're right. I really thought the point was to save her son's penis from mutilation.

And now you've missed *my* point. Oh well.









I'm glad to hear things seem to be on their way up, Jenna.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
That's why I think she should work directly on educating her husband to bring him to her side.


I don't disagree that she should work on convincing him. HOWEVER, her question was whether or not we would get divorced over it, should it come to that, God forbid. My answer still is an unequivocal yes. Being the father, he can get a circumcision for the son, whether they are married or not. However, I would not continue to share my heart and spirit with such an evil person. Therefore, yes, I would get divorced, even if the divorce didn't/couldn't stop the circumcision.

However, family courts are still biased towards women. She does have that in her favor. Should a mother imply that perhaps the father is a danger to the child (assuming she has a good lawyer), she may very well get a custody arrangement which only allows the father supervised visits.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girl138*
initially i wanted to know if i was crazy for standing my ground on the topic after that threat.... now, i don't CARE what anyone thinks. i AM standing my ground.


You're NOT crazy, and I'm VERY proud of you.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

You are not being pig headed. you are being firm. there is a difference (one is backed up with a solid reason.) but they are ways to be firm while still honoring your partners emotions. I am glad to hear he at least seems to be mulling it over. Actually thinking about is a good place to start. It is hard to think about it to much wiothout coming to a logical conclusion and "my family will freak" is not a strong reason. Your about to have a kid. His family is gonna freak about a lot of stuff







. they will get used to it. And counseling is good for that too if they need help


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caloli*
I feel that this sentence is missing two words and should read "circ is not a crime, not considered abuse legally in America. The rest of the world feels differently and many countries have classified it as legal abuse (RIC is illegal in Sweden).

Just wanted to quote myself and share a link I found - the UN considers circumcision child abuse:

http://www.universalway.org/circtruths.html

(about 1/3 of the way down).


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

I'm sorry for your loss, and







I'm glad things are better with you and your DH. We argued about this for about a week. I had never read anything about Circ in my life, never thought much about it. I was worried about paying for a procedure that my insurance didn't cover.. SO wanted the circ done because he is.

Well. Then I did a little research, found this lovely messageboard, and told SO that if he wanted to 'circ my baby, who is growing inside me, and who I love, and will protect no matter what' that he would have to 'kill me first'.







He saw that wild hormonal look in my eyes, or something, because he said 'Okay, honey. That sounds fine to me.'










He did say later on, though, that he thought my desire to leave my son intact had something to do with his penis.







I knew it.

Besides, my main thing is, what business is it of their what your son's penis looks like? It's not their son, it's not their penis.









Here's hoping that he came around!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girl138*
oh - and i said somewhere in this mess that i do not want a divorce nor would i ever ask for one. i was told BY MY HUSBAND that if i didn't allow a circumcision to APPEASE HIS FAMILY then we would end up divorced.


So part of his concern is that his family will be upset or freaked if he doesn't do this to your son? I got the feeling from his response to my post in your blog that I was insulting him by suggesting such a thing.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

You may want to put in writing to the persons who may possibly perform the circumcision that you DO NOT CONSENT to having the surgery performed on your son. You have to use those words. Even if you are planning a homebirth, carry copies with you if you get transferred and hand them to everyone, especially the director of pediatrics or neonatology. A bunch of things I did not consent to happened to my first daughter and they said that was because the pediatricians never got my birth plan and it did not say "I do not consent to _____". (note they used two excuses, which makes me think they were both b.s., but still)

Good luck. I'm glad he is acting like himself again.


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

Quote:

Originally Posted by girl138
oh - and i said somewhere in this mess that i do not want a divorce nor would i ever ask for one. i was told BY MY HUSBAND that if i didn't allow a circumcision to APPEASE HIS FAMILY then we would end up divorced.

If your husband is willing to divorce you over this, I find that sad and disturbing. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
Even if you are planning a homebirth, carry copies with you if you get transferred and hand them to everyone, especially the director of pediatrics or neonatology.

This is where having a doula really gave me peace of mind during my labor and delivery. Just knowing she was there to run interference allowed me to focus on the birth, w/o worrying who had or needed or read copies of my birth plan.
I highly recommend a doula, not just for the circ thing but for thepeace of mind all around.
Hope all goes well for you!
Jen


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

To answer the OP's question: YES, I would and I did (wasn't the only issue we had, but the circ fight was definitely the nail in the coffin)

It was the best decision I ever made. What finally made up my mind was this thought: "would I rather split up now because I'm not circ'ing, or split up later because I hate him for circ'ing?" either way, I knew we were doomed - might as well protect my son, you know?

But that was just my personal decision.


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## missab (Nov 21, 2005)

I'd probably have to divorce my husband.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I actually don't think the circumcision issue _per se_ is what would "justify" divorce - but the bullying, the conformity, the willingness to cause permanent damage to avoid familial conflict, the implied insecurity, the poor communication, the lack of considerateness, etc. would. Those are all signals of major problems in the relationship.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn*
I actually don't think the circumcision issue _per se_ is what would "justify" divorce - but the bullying, the conformity, the willingness to cause permanent damage to avoid familial conflict, the implied insecurity, the poor communication, the lack of considerateness, etc. would. Those are all signals of major problems in the relationship.

This is EXACTLY it for me. When I realized that my "partner" didn't respect my views or the rights of our son enough to even DISCUSS it, I knew our relationship wasn't worth saving. I think it would have been different if he was willing to read and watch and think about the info out there and then have an honest discussion - AND THEN still disagreed with me (I still wouldn't circ, but it wouldn't have created such hostility, IMO)

The "I'm the man with the penis and my word is law" crap is what infuriates me.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

OP, I'm so sorry for your loss.

As it happens, my dh became a rabid anti-circer after we did our research on the subject, but one thing I was thinking of doing if he pulled out the "my parents will freak" argument was to talk to his parents directly. I think it's important for the other people who might be involved in a circ against your will do understand that you DO NOT CONSENT, and that the action would destroy your marriage. Your dh's parents aren't stupid. They know that you will get custody of a newborn, and that their role in the child's life would be seriously diminished. I think it's entirely possible that even if they are very pro-circ, they are even more pro-marriage for you and your dh. They have years of experience raising kids and being married, after all. They know that divorce would be terrible for all three of you.

The whole issue may just blow over. Circ is often a very nasty fight, and nobody wants to admit that they went over the edge defending their views. Eventually your mother or MIL will ask about a bris, and at that point I would have a brit shalom planned already and just tell them about that. It would be more fair for your husband to handle his family, but it may fall to you and it is just the first of many times you will run interference as your son's #1 advocate.


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## kristenburgess (Sep 15, 2002)

I hope all the links have helped to change your hubby's mind. I haven't read all the replies so maybe this came up. But you mentioned that your husband's reason for wanting to circ was "my family will freak if we don't." Do you think it's possible that members of his family have made comments to him - comments along the lines that he'll be hurting his son if he doesn't choose to circ? Since it is a religious thing, perhaps the implication is there that your baby will be hurt spiritually - and thus your husband's desire to circ is also because he wants the best for his child, and he wants him to be safe in all respects.

I hope that the links you were given can help change your dh's mind and help him realize there are ways to celebrate your son without the traditional bris.

I know both of you must have so much fear and apprehension within you after the pain that you're experiencing with the loss of your daughter. I'm just wondering if his response is coming more from fear and pain than deep conviction or desire to control...My prayers are with you mama as you go through your pregnancy and birth your son.


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## craftykitty (Jan 31, 2005)

Oh, sweetie... I just read your memorial page and I'm still crying. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you are feeling.









In answer to the question... it seems that maybe more is going here besides the circ issue? I personally wouldn't stay married to someone who was so forceful as to relentlessly demand a circ, but for many reasons. Have you and your dh gone to grief counseling together? Maybe something like that could help you two get back to being focused on eachother and really understanding eachother. Hopefully, with that help, the circ issue will be easier to work out. Good luck.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *craftykitty*
Oh, sweetie... I just read your memorial page and I'm still crying. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you are feeling.









In answer to the question... it seems that maybe more is going here besides the circ issue? I personally wouldn't stay married to someone who was so forceful as to relentlessly demand a circ, but for many reasons. Have you and your dh gone to grief counseling together? Maybe something like that could help you two get back to being focused on eachother and really understanding eachother. Hopefully, with that help, the circ issue will be easier to work out. Good luck.

















: Also, have you checked out the grief & loss forum here at MDC? It might have some helpful advice about how to get through the grief.








I also want to second the advice about talking to a counselor. It can help you immensely.
I never answered your op because I don't know how I'd react. I was lucky; my dh had no objections to leaving our ds intact.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Mama, how are you doing?


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
Just FYI, she lost her toddler, not a pregnancy.

Mama, how are you doing?

Oh, noooo!







Thanks for the info. I'll go edit my post.


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## MonicaS (Oct 27, 2002)

OP - I just read Jordana's memorial. I am so incredibly sorry for your loss. We found my DD unconcious in the pool when she was 2.5 yrs. Thankfully, she survived, but I wanted to pass along my most heartfelt condolences to you and your DH. I can't imagine having the strength to go on if our outcome had been different. I think grief counselling as a couple is a must, if you haven't already started.

As far as the original question, yes, I would let my DH divorce me over it. Like many others have mentioned, the day DH stops listening to what I have to say and research something that I find so very important, would the beginning of the end. If we can't communicate w/ each other and listen to what each other has to say, especially regarding something painful and permanent to our child, what kind of relationship do we have?


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

girl138, I've been thinking about you. How are you and your DH doing?


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