# the logistics of airplane travel



## Altair (May 1, 2005)

We'll be traveling to new orleans with my 3 month old in less than a week. We don't have a seat for him. I'm planning to bring my graco snugride and attach it to my bugaboo bee stroller frame so I have a car seat and stroller while I'm down there.

I'm trying to picture the logistics of the airport-- I will wheel the stroller/carseat to the gate to gate check, other than that we'll have 2 small rolling bags (or one big one) a diaper bag and carryon. How do I also carry the base to the car seat? I know it is technically possible to use the car seat without the base-- since we will be reinstalling it everytime anyway, would it be possible to leave the base at home? Is that a much harder installation? We're very good at installing it tight with the base and seatbelts. If I do end up getting a seat on the plane for him, is it harder to install without a base on the plane?

Thanks!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I'd leave the base at home. You wouldn't be able to use it on the plane anyaway, because the plane seatbelts end up right in the middle, and it would prevent the car seat from clipping into the base.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I would also leave the base at home. Wear baby through the airport, and use the carseat strapped to the frame to pile all the bags on that you can. Then one person pushes the stroller while the other rolls the wheeled bags.


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## RebeccaWo (Apr 1, 2008)

Ditto PP about leaving the base at home. Also, when you check-in at the counter (before security) ask for a couple gate check bags for your stroller and car seat to protect them.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Bring a bungee cord to hold the stroller folded during the gate check. That's my tip.









Leave the base at home. We flew ours to seattle once. Not worth it.


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## crpsmnwife (Aug 17, 2007)

Keep in mind that if you buy a seat for your baby, then they may require you to keep him in his carseat during take-off and landing and you won't be able to nurse during those times. Unless your little one is going to ride GREAT in the carseat during the entire flight (b/c they can say that he can't get out of his "seatbelt") AND he will take a paci or bottle or suck his thumb during take off and landing ... then I would check the carseat at the gate and forget about buying him a seat. And the sling in the airport with the bags on the stroller is a GREAT idea. It's exactly what I do when I'm traveling solo with my little guy. I actually check the carseat at the ticket counter (b/c I'm flying with a baby it's no charge), carry my ds in a sling and put my carry on in the stroller and go. I check the stroller at the gate and we're free! However, you do have to take your lo out of the sling before take off ... weird rules, but whatever. I would definitely look at your carrier's website before flying. FYI: I have found the JetBlue is VERY baby friendly, and my best friend swears by Southwestern when flying with her nursling. Best of luck to you!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I'm a former Flight Attendant and I just wanted to clear up some misstatements above;

1. Having the car seat on board is the only way to safely fly with a baby. Lap babies are only allowed for commercial reasons and are not protected if anything goes wrong.

2. You do not have to have the baby in the car seat the entire time. Once the seat belt sign is off, the baby can come out. For take-off and touch-down, they do have to be in the seat, as well as on the taxi way.

3. You do not need to nurse the baby on take-off and landing. This is a common myth. If your baby's ears are healthy and infection-free, he'll be fine. I have never done anything special for my purely breastfed and non-paci taking babies on countless transatlantics and have never had problems.

4. NEVER check a car seat in as luggage. What would you do if it were lost and/or damaged in transit? How would you leave the airport? The scary part is that the damage might not be obvious and then you'd be using an unsafe seat for your child. You wouldn't find out unless you were in an accident!

Also, if your bags are lost, and there are two parents, one can take off with the children while the other does battle with the ground agents









5. If you are unable to use the baby's seat, be sure to gate-check it, _not_ check it in as luggage. This is slightly better, although no guarantee. It will then be handled with the wheelchairs and strollers, not crushed under 100 other checked bags...

6. If you do have the little one in your lap, be sure he is NOT in any carrier for take-off and landing. This is not a "weird" rule but an important safety point. Babies attached to their parents become "human air bags" in forward thrust. Your child is safer loose in your lap.

I agree with leaving the base at home. If you look at your manual, it probably says to install it on the plane _without_ the base (I've never heard of one that did and I never saw an infant bucket with the base in my 13 years flying). It's not that big a deal to install it, especially on vacation when you wont be as pressed for time as at home. I find that most of our driving is point A to B driving, not the "running around" I usually do at home. It's just one less thing to drag along...

Be sure to check _everything_ you wont need on the actual flight. When flying with two or more small kids, you have enough gear to worry about. Don't use the rolly bag as a carry-on. They're awkward to stow. For the diaper bag, make sure it's a backpack style one, the bigger size (mine goes up to my knee). Another option is to bring both. I had a diaper bag which was hung on the stroller and a backpack with the supplies I needed later in the flight (extra diapers, change of clothes, etc.) then I put the backpack in the overhead bin for take-off and kept the diaper bag under the seat.

My non-commercial flying tips;
http://flyingwithchildren1.blogspot.com

Let me know if you need any other information!


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

the backpack idea is great-- I'll use that as our second or maybe only carryon if we can get away with it!

So, big rolling bag checked and ask for 2 bags for carseat and stroller, then bring car seat attached to stroller and backpack around airport-- either wear baby or baby in stroller. gate check car seat and stroller. we got our seat with an empty one next to us so we're hoping we get a seat for him. we're flying jet blue.

thanks everyone! it's an early flight so i'm hoping he sleeps through everything!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Early flights with kids are a good idea.

Not only are babies in better moods early on but the first flight is less likely to be delayed or cancelled.

Many tips say to book when they nap but I saw that go wrong soooo many times! Good way to have a meltdown in the airport...

Have a good flight and good luck getting the seat on board.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I will add, based on our experiences, to Eclipsepearl's great advice.

Our DS was EBF and didn't use a paci. We never experiences any ear problems either. Not saying it couldn't happen but I do believe it is an over-blown fear.

Gate checking is easy. I had a cheap bag from a big box store that fit our carseat (never had to do that, see below) and our carrier, whether it was our snuggie or later a backpack carrier. I padded the carrier with the diapers we needed for our trip.

I had great success with getting ticketed next to an empty seat so we were able to put DS in his snug-ride, in his own seat. I was always super polite at check-in and if they were unable to grant my request, I asked again at the gate prior to boarding calls. I was never turned down. Flights are likely more crowded now so I don't know if I would still be as lucky. We started buying seats at 18 months.

DS was perfectly content to ride the entire flight in his carseat so I liked having him in it.

Recently I have noticed the airlines (USAir and American in particular) are really cracking down on the carry on size. Rollies seem to get the most attention.

When we flight, there are very clearly defined and adheared to responsibilities. DH is responsible for his carry on and DS only. I am responsible for the carseat, my and DS's carry on. That way there is no shuffling around at the security line. DH can grab his bag and DS an get out of the secure area as soon as possible. I bring up the rear with the bags and seat.

Leave the base at home.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Eclipse Pearl, can you explain this a bit more please?

Quote:

6. If you do have the little one in your lap, be sure he is NOT in any carrier for take-off and landing. This is not a "weird" rule but an important safety point. Babies attached to their parents become "human air bags" in forward thrust. Your child is safer loose in your lap.
I'm not understanding how it is better for a child to be a potential projectile than to be somehow strapped to his or her parent. If a child is in a carrier and in contact with a parent's body, wouldn't the child's body move with the parent's body in the carrier?

I'm not trying to challenge what you said, I just don't understand so clarification would be greatly appreciated







.


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Eclipse Pearl, can you explain this a bit more please?

I'm not understanding how it is better for a child to be a potential projectile than to be somehow strapped to his or her parent. If a child is in a carrier and in contact with a parent's body, wouldn't the child's body move with the parent's body in the carrier?

I'm not trying to challenge what you said, I just don't understand so clarification would be greatly appreciated







.

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Note that in airplanes, there is no upper-body restraint for passengers. So, in a sudden stop (say, a plane running off the runway or crash-landing, etc.), the adult/parent's body will be thrown forward, into the seat in front of her. Should there be a child strapped to the parent's body, it will be the "baby air bag" and be crushed. The severity of injury would depend on the severity of the crash forces, but there are reports of children being killed in this circumstance.

Is having the child loose safe, either? No, but it does reduce the likelihood of this type of almost-guaranteed injury. Some lap children are killed in crashes; others have survived. Clearly, the safest place for a child on a plane is strapped into their own seat.

FWIW, adults are told to brace against the seat in front of them before an impact or hard landing (if possible). This will reduce injury for the adult, but can still result in crushing of a child.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i understand the car seat being the safest place for a baby on an airplane... how would this work with a baby who screams bloody murder while in the seat? especially in the case of a flight with a lot of turbulence where the fasten seat belt is on a lot would the airline still prefer that baby be in the seat during the times the fasten seat belt is on or would they prefer you hold baby so that everyone else is the plane can hear something besides screaming?

ds isn't a little bitty baby now but this would have been the situation had we flown at that time.. and probably even now... to young to talk but to old for us to hope he would sleep the whole way. i am kind of afraid to fly with him because of this


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i understand the car seat being the safest place for a baby on an airplane... how would this work with a baby who screams bloody murder while in the seat? especially in the case of a flight with a lot of turbulence where the fasten seat belt is on a lot would the airline still prefer that baby be in the seat during the times the fasten seat belt is on or would they prefer you hold baby so that everyone else is the plane can hear something besides screaming?

ds isn't a little bitty baby now but this would have been the situation had we flown at that time.. and probably even now... to young to talk but to old for us to hope he would sleep the whole way. i am kind of afraid to fly with him because of this









As others will surely pop in to tell, the risks in flying are pretty low, as it is. If I had a child who could *not* handle staying in the seat most of the flight, I'd probably feel okay holding him for as much time as seemed appropriate. Of course, in heavy turbulence, I wouldn't do that as it's a time when a plane can drop quite suddenly and send the child into the ceiling.

What I *would* do would be to plan as many activities and entertainment options for the child as I possible could.







Anything and everything, changing it up every 5 minutes. There are some great, cheap, easy suggestions out there!









It might not be a stress-free flight, but I, personally, would do the most I could to ensure my child's safety while at the same time balancing that against the comfort of the others on the flight. Ultimately, safety comes first, but when in a reasonably safe situation anyway, I'd be happy to let my child out and ensure everyone's comfort.









And, slightly off topic, but I've come off of flights with my baby to hear numerous people remark that they didn't even know there was a baby on the flight. I'm thinking, "HOW did you not hear him crying all that time?!" And, yet, he didn't *actually* bother everyone on the plane.







(Granted, he didn't scream the whole time, but, we've had some less-than-pleasant flights with fussy kids!)


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Also you might be able to have your infant in there own seat where you can use the carseat. I never payed for my DD tickets before the 2 year mark but she was never a lap baby eaither (minus a breastfeeding secession or two) they just looked and saw there was aviable seating and allowed me two seats together...

Deanna


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
Also you might be able to have your infant in there own seat where you can use the carseat. I never payed for my DD tickets before the 2 year mark but she was never a lap baby eaither (minus a breastfeeding secession or two) they just looked and saw there was aviable seating and allowed me two seats together...

Deanna

We used to get free seats for under 2s all the time. But recently (as in the past year) with the airlines in trouble and canceling flights and such, almost every flight I've been on has been completely booked. So, fwiw, I really think it's less likely to get the extra free seat now then it was in the past.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
We used to get free seats for under 2s all the time. But recently (as in the past year) with the airlines in trouble and canceling flights and such, almost every flight I've been on has been completely booked. So, fwiw, I really think it's less likely to get the extra free seat now then it was in the past.

my mom is a travel agent and when she books flights for someone with a baby who isn't buying a seat for the baby she books one of them in the window and one in the aisle b/c people who are flying with other people aren't going to book that seat and people flying alone will book an aisle or window if at all possible. if the seat is booked the person in it is usually more then willing to trade and sit in the window or the aisle... but at least it gives you a decent chance of having a little extra space.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

Keep in mind that if you buy a seat for your baby, then they may require you to keep him in his carseat during take-off and landing and you won't be able to nurse during those times.
And that is a good thing.

I'm married to a pilot and if we could not afford a seat for our infant/toddler, we didn't fly. The most dangerous times in a flight are take off and landing. Next most dangerous is during turbulance (not due to crashes but due to people hurting themselves.)

My advice to people whose babies scream bloody murder during take off/landing is to try to soothe them the best you can but do not take them out of the carseat. Believe me, the airline would far prefer everyone have to listen to a screaming baby than a baby getting hurt. If other passengers say something rude, direct them to the flight attendents.

Or perhaps I'll be sitting behind you and I've educated several people over the years who were complaining about a baby crying in their carseat and I'm proud of it.

Lastly, if you do fly without a carseat please do not strap your baby to you. That is the most dangerous thing you can do.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
Or perhaps I'll be sitting behind you and I've educated several people over the years who were complaining about a baby crying in their carseat and I'm proud of it.

so i am thinking that if i ever fly before ds can talk i want you to come with me.







he does this really high pitched ear splitting type screech... i will need help educating any passengers whose ears do not shut down in self defense.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Give them my phone number! Or you could do what a friend of mine used to do. She would grab a handful of ear plugs from her husband's dresser and pass them out to the people around her saying, "My husband's a pilot and says that babies have to stay in their carseats when the seatbelt sigh is on but our baby is a screamer. So he sent these ear plugs for you."

Everyone from the NTSB to the AMA wants the "lap child" policy to be changed and it really makes me angry that the airlines are not more upfront about the dangers. I think a lot of people assume that if the airline and the FAA let's them do it, then it must be safe. Of course, the airline doesn't ask you, "Would you feel safe with your baby in your lap goind down a highway at 60mph? Because on the runway we'll hit 200mph."

Just a few other safety tips for everyone:

-Wear natural fibers. Cotton is best as it burns cleanly. Synthetic fibers melt on skin.

-Wear Leather soled shoes that lace up.

-Keep track of where you are in the plane in relationship to an emergency exit.

Airline travel is very safe but just adding these few, small extra things can make it that much safer.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

she should say that her husband is the pilot on that flight... nobody would want to be rude to the wife and baby of the guy flying the plane









my mom says they haven't made the lap baby thing illegal b/c of money... people don't want to buy tickets for babies and airlines don't want to lose business. and she agrees with you about people thinking that it is safe b/c its allowed... and b/c the dangers are not ones that you really think of.. like baby flying out of your hands and hitting the ceiling...or you crushing them when you lurch forward etc. i said i would be worried about getting ds out of seat if we needed to get off the plane fast... but she said the odds of that are ridiculously slim its like not wearing a seatbelt b/c you might get trapped in your car.

she keeps trying to convince me to go on vacation with her but i don't want to fly with ds yet... hence all the airplane conversations i have with my mother.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Glad to hear someone else connected to the airline industry chiming in here!

I don't think the micro second it would take to press the button on the car seat compares to crushing your child on your lap, or having him thrown from your arms on impact. At least thrown from your arms they have a chance of surviving. One baby in one crash flew into an overhead bin and survived. If I remember correctly, another passenger heard her, took her and evacuated with her. The reunion was done outside the plane.

The crying issue is very overrated. Many babies fall asleep on the taxi out to the runway. Also, the times when the baby has to be seated, the beginning and end of the flight are when everyone is usually awake anyway. I found especially that my toddlers were either 1. asleep in their car seat or 2. up walking the aisles. There was no calmly sitting in one place. Since my kids hated their car seats, I would let them sleep in my arms and transfer them once they nodded off.

Take off and landing are shorter than most of our car rides.


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## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

I probably wouldn't take the Bugaboo, since it's an expensive stroller. I watched out the window as my stroller was chucked down a chute after being gatechecked. Sometimes they have a little elevator thing, but if you aren't familiar with this flight then I would probably get something cheaper, that I wouldn't mind getting damaged. On another flight my gatechecked stroller ended up coming through with the other luggage on the carousel (has happened a few times, actually) without the wheels! We had to run around everywhere trying to find out what happened. Someone apparently took them off so it would fit better but didn't think about putting them back on.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
she should say that her husband is the pilot on that flight... nobody would want to be rude to the wife and baby of the guy flying the plane









my mom says they haven't made the lap baby thing illegal b/c of money... people don't want to buy tickets for babies and airlines don't want to lose business. and she agrees with you about people thinking that it is safe b/c its allowed... and b/c the dangers are not ones that you really think of.. like baby flying out of your hands and hitting the ceiling...or you crushing them when you lurch forward etc. i said i would be worried about getting ds out of seat if we needed to get off the plane fast... but she said the odds of that are ridiculously slim its like not wearing a seatbelt b/c you might get trapped in your car.

she keeps trying to convince me to go on vacation with her but i don't want to fly with ds yet... hence all the airplane conversations i have with my mother.

Actually, it's because they did a study and found that more under 2s would be injured or killed in the car accidents that would result from more people driving than flying. That's how much safer flying is.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
my mom is a travel agent and when she books flights for someone with a baby who isn't buying a seat for the baby she books one of them in the window and one in the aisle b/c people who are flying with other people aren't going to book that seat and people flying alone will book an aisle or window if at all possible. if the seat is booked the person in it is usually more then willing to trade and sit in the window or the aisle... but at least it gives you a decent chance of having a little extra space.

That is exactly what we do. Yet, it's been full every flight we've been on but 1 in the 6 flights we flew in the last year.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 

I don't think the micro second it would take to press the button on the car seat compares to crushing your child on your lap, or having him thrown from your arms on impact. At least thrown from your arms they have a chance of surviving. One baby in one crash flew into an overhead bin and survived. If I remember correctly, another passenger heard her, took her and evacuated with her. The reunion was done outside the plane.

I'm curious...do you know how many infant injuries are reported each year due to not being in a carseat in a plane? Just trying to get a sense of the numbers. Do they keep track of these things?

Katherine


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
We used to get free seats for under 2s all the time. But recently (as in the past year) with the airlines in trouble and canceling flights and such, almost every flight I've been on has been completely booked. So, fwiw, I really think it's less likely to get the extra free seat now then it was in the past.


Aww thats too bad I used to even beable to call the airline before hand and let them know I'd be bringing a baby/toddler with a carseat one and they'd just reserve a seat no charge. OF course for the past 4 years I've had to pay ticket as shes is now 6..

Deanna


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I'm curious...do you know how many infant injuries are reported each year due to not being in a carseat in a plane? Just trying to get a sense of the numbers. Do they keep track of these things?

Katherine

I think it's pretty much 0. It's something like 1-2 lives saved every 10 years. I dunno if they have that many stats, but the number of under 2s being injured is extremely small. WAY smaller than driving.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russsk* 
I probably wouldn't take the Bugaboo, since it's an expensive stroller. I watched out the window as my stroller was chucked down a chute after being gatechecked. Sometimes they have a little elevator thing, but if you aren't familiar with this flight then I would probably get something cheaper, that I wouldn't mind getting damaged. On another flight my gatechecked stroller ended up coming through with the other luggage on the carousel (has happened a few times, actually) without the wheels! We had to run around everywhere trying to find out what happened. Someone apparently took them off so it would fit better but didn't think about putting them back on.


ohhhhh good advice! I just need to borrow one of those snap and go strollers that are just a frame...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
Actually, it's because they did a study and found that more under 2s would be injured or killed in the car accidents that would result from more people driving than flying. That's how much safer flying is.

ftr this is a little disjointed... and if i sound a bit critical it is absolutely not directed at you.. it is 100% about the study!!!









so they did a study .. they figured out how many people with babies would chose to drive instead of buying their baby a plane ticket and then figured out the likelihood of those babies being injured or killed while in a car seat during the drive to wherever it is they would have flown to and the number was higher then the number of babies who would be injured or killed while flying without car seats?

and the conclusion they reached is that it would not be worth it to require car seats on planes even though babies are safer in car seats because the kids are better off flying without a car seat then driving with one?

this is one of those things that sort of boggles my mind. babies in airplanes without car seats are safer then babies in cars with car seats. babies in airplanes are safer in car seats. babies are in cars every day. babies in planes are not required to be in a car seat because people might choose to drive with their babies in a car seat instead of buying a plane ticket? that doesn't make any sense. why should one effect the other? if the only time people drove was when they choose not to fly some where it would make sense... but people drive all the time...and if they choose to drive instead of buy a plane ticket that is their choice.. but the babies in those planes should be in car seats because it is safer then not being in one.. regardless of how many people may choose to drive instead of fly.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherB* 
So, in a sudden stop (say, a plane running off the runway or crash-landing, etc.), the adult/parent's body will be thrown forward, into the seat in front of her. Should there be a child strapped to the parent's body, it will be the "baby air bag" and be crushed. The severity of injury would depend on the severity of the crash forces, but there are reports of children being killed in this circumstance.

Just curious - if an adult is properly restrained with the seat belt how would it be possible for them to hit the seat in front of them. I know when strapped in if I lean forward my head will touch the back of the seat in front of me but I cannot imagine my torso being able to touch.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think she might have meant that they would jerk forward towards the seat in front of them.. not necessarily hit it with their whole body. if a child is strapped to you (or worse seatbelted in with you) the force of your body jerking forward could crush them.

sort of a long that line.. they have you put luggage under your seat or in the over head compartment for safety reasons. if your LO is not buckled in or .. i want to say held tight in your lap but i am not sure how well we could hold on. anyway.. not restrained in some way when there is sudden motion they could go flying... off the seat, down the aisle... up to the ceiling.. etc. i think that i one of the dangers of not being in a carseat.

i didn't think of that at first when i started thinking about this. i was thinking of the plane crashing or catching fire ... someone had to point it out to me. i was thinking car seat for car crash... on a plane for plane crash.. though i guess they are also for keeping baby from flying around cars as well.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Have you ever tried to pick up something off the floor? Of course your torso and whole upper body would slam into the seat in front of you.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i suppose it is similar to being in the back seat of a car right? and on that particular train of thought, why don't airplane seat belts have shoulder belts?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Airplane seats are much closer together than vehicle seats, unless you're in first class/business class or drive a pickup with a tiny back seat.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

There was an article a couple of days ago about putting airbags on airplanes. I wonder how that would affect car seat use (or make it impossible).


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
-Wear Leather soled shoes that lace up.

Of course, because of the shoe scan, everyone wears loafers or sandals now :-/. I guess wear one pair of shoes through security, then put on your boots afterward.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I'm curious...do you know how many infant injuries are reported each year due to not being in a carseat in a plane? Just trying to get a sense of the numbers. Do they keep track of these things?

The problem is sample size. In 2008, there were (according to http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Table3.htm) no fatalities and 5 serious injuries aboard US Air Carriers operating under 14 CFR 121 (which seems to include commercial air flights). That was out of 20 total accidents, it seems: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Table1.htm though there were 2 fatal accidents on non-scheduled flights that aren't counted in Table 3, I guess.

So, if out of those five injuries, one was a lap baby, you still can't draw statistical conclusions from that... the sample size is just too small.

Much of the research, then, is based on decades of data. But then you're looking at time periods where equipment, regulations, and use varied widely. The planes they were using in the 1960s are all scrap now. Deregulation in the 1980s changed the industry a lot. Falling prices mean that more families travel by air than used to. So aggregating the statistics over a long period of time doesn't really give you statistically valid information, either.

Plane incidents are *extremely* unlikely. That makes it hard to analyze what actually happens in them. But, there's enough data that says we're safer with belts, that I'm required to be in my seat with my seat belt fastened at key points during the journey. There's absolutely nothing implying that air travel is safER for my baby than for me, so I apply the same rule to him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Just curious - if an adult is properly restrained with the seat belt how would it be possible for them to hit the seat in front of them. I know when strapped in if I lean forward my head will touch the back of the seat in front of me but I cannot imagine my torso being able to touch.

I'm trying to get Youtube to produce me a crash test video of someone with a lap-only belt, but my browser crashes each time I try







. But, think of it this way: if a VERY STRONG person pushed on your back VERY HARD and VERY QUICKLY while you're belted into an airplane seat, without regard to your comfort or safety, do you think they could touch your torso to the seat in front of you? You're far more flexible than the seats, so YOU would be jerked forward a huge amount, but the seat would remain stationary. I can't even stand up from an airplane seat without touching the seat back in front of me; it's not hard to imagine my torso smashing into it in a crash. And I don't have a particularly long torso, either.

Ah, here, this will somewhat demonstrate the issue: 



 It compares a lap-only belt to a three-point belt for a child crash test dummy in a booster seat, but you see the amount that the torso is thrown.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Have you ever tried to pick up something off the floor? Of course your torso and whole upper body would slam into the seat in front of you.

Yes I have - never flown anything except coach too. I just cannot fathom how one's entire torso and upper body would hit the seat in front of them if properly belted at the waist with the seat belt. Hitting your head, absolutely, but entire upper torso, well I would think that if that happened you would have serious internal injuries from the lap belt.


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Anything that is unrestrained in a crash will move forward until it hits another object. Your body being restrained only at the hips will move much like is demonstrated in crash test videos of children in only lap belts.






This is the same video Ironica came up with.







I got called away in the midst of writing.

Consider that a steering wheel can cause major injuries to a *properly* restrained adult in a vehicle crash, hence the need for airbags. This video demonstrates the movement of the driver and passenger in a relatively safe vehicle: 




In a collision, you WILL move far behind your normal range of motion. That's where the injuries come from, in large part. That, and the impact that stops the motion.

Want more videos?







How about this actual airplane crash test? It's a first-row seat, so consider that most of us will be sitting in rows with seats in front and closer to us than the wall in this one: 




If *that* isn't convincing that wearing your baby during take-off/landing (where most problems occur) is a bad idea, I don't know what is.







Whether baby is crushed between you and the seat, or you and your own legs/seat, it would definitely NOT be good news.

Anyway, Ironica has excellent points as far as the data available and why one might choose to restrain their child on flights, despite the lack of regulation. I am in total agreement with her points.









One argument for why airplanes don't have 3-pt harnesses is that most injuries (survivable ones) occur during turbulence, which is an up/down movement. Another line of thought is that when they were originally developed, lap belts were what was in use, and no one has gone to the trouble to change it. I'm not entirely sure what the full range of reasonings is on that one, but it's an interesting question.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if most injuries are during up and down turbulence i guess a shoulder belt wouldn't be very helpful. but wouldn't something like ... well i was tryingt to think of something to protect you from up and down but i couldn't think of anything other then a five pt harness and i can't imagine most adults would wear them even if airplanes did have them.

i wear my seatbelt on airplanes but i have noticed many people don't but the little booklet tells you that even when the fasten seatbelt sign is off you should wear your seat belt when you are sitting.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

oo i have another question. does being rear facing or forward facing matter on an airplane?


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

For vertical motion, the lap belt is what you need. Worn properly, it holds you down into the seat, no matter which direction the plane goes - up or down.

Rearfacing is still better on a plane, though I hear not all countries permit rearfacing seats on planes (though I don't know why, exactly). In a plane, the seats in front of you are a lot closer than you'll have in a vehicle, so a child is actually more likely to impact the seat in front. (Remember, even properly restrained, there IS movement.) So, rearfacing is best when on a plane, as well, to minimize that possibility.

Of course, it also makes it impossible for the person in front of you to recline their seat. I haven't found the lack of a table to be a problem; quite the opposite, as when rearfacing items have less tendency to fall on the floor. They stay more accessible to the child. I also like being able to lean over just a bit and be face to face with the baby or child when he's rearfacing, rather than having to turn awkwardly when he's forward facing.

Of course, it's a matter of degrees of safety. Being restrained *at all* in a plane is much safer than not. I far prefer rearfacing and will keep my rearfacing child as such in a plane. But it's still a very good idea to be restrained in a plane even if your child is forward facing. Hope that makes sense.







It's nap time!


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## missbuns (Oct 16, 2007)

How exactly does it work to not allow the person in front of you to recline their seat?

Just flew 13 hours each way with my 2 year old and tried on the way to put her in a car seat. She did not want to sit in it AT ALL. I managed to get her in it and she proceeded to kick the person in front of her non-stop for five minutes, and bang on the touch screen TV, which caused him to freak out and we hadn't even left yet. It was a 100% full flight, no moving for him or us. So I got rid of the seat and her legs and arms couldn't reach anymore.

The lap belt tightened up against her and she actually sat/slept/read pretty happily in her seat the whole time. It felt safe and I felt much more relaxed not worrying about her kicking (which can not be helped if her feet are two inches away from the seat in front of her).

Just wondering how you deal with that?


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

I"m also wondering about read facing and how annoyed people would be that they can't recline their seat. And I'm very confused about the lap buckle extender. Is there a video or pictures anywhere that explains how to do it?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

I haven't yet had a problem with the person in front of us being annoyed, but if I did, no contest... my child's safety trumps their comfort and convenience.

There's actually an FAA circular that makes this official; a link to it was posted a couple months ago here. They can ask to switch seats, but the FAs may NOT prohibit you from installing an FAA-approved carseat in the proper position for your child's size.


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## missbuns (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I haven't yet had a problem with the person in front of us being annoyed, but if I did, no contest... my child's safety trumps their comfort and convenience.



That's so interesting. Do you go on a lot of short flights? As someone who has flown 2-4 times a year on 10-14 hour flights for the past 10 years I always make a huge effort to be respectful to the people around me. I can not STAND to be kicked throughout a 14 hour flight and I think other people deserve for parents to at least try their best.

I always sort of introduce myself to the people around us and if there is a free seat suggest the person in front of my daughter move for their own comfort, which they often do. But the last few flights have been 100% booked. I can not imagine not allowing the person in front of my child to recline their seat for 14 hours. What if they have a bad back or something?

If I had a rear facing infant I would make sure I was in bulkhead, business or the plane was half empty. Or else I would install the seat FF so the person can recline.

The airline was really cool about moving us to a proper seat for my daughter's car seat to fit. I'm pretty sure if you explained about the reclining issue they would put you in bulkhead or at least leave the seat in front empty. No one wants pissed off people in airplanes and being able to recline is kind of a "right" every passenger has.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

There are a couple of other solutions;

1. Some families place an adult in front of the child, so that if there are any kicking and/or reclining issues, it's not a stranger. This works best if a bigger group is flying.

2. Not totally recommended, more of a "last resort" is to turn the seat after take-off ffing. The danger inflight is turbulence, not forward impact as it is with take off and touch down. I fly 10 and 11 1/2 hour flights and I had enough time for all this turning.

I once arranged with the row in front, who had one empty seat, to put that in front of my dd.

I also once had a family behind who also had car seats so we lined up the kids so that theirs' were kicking my kids' seats.

Before landing or take-off, make sure your child is comfortable. Not too hot, diaper changed/visited restroom, etc. so if they're crying, you're sure it's not because of a comfort issue.

Take off and landing are not long so if my kids cried, so what. It's not like everyone's asleep. We're arriving and it's for such a short time. I did find they calmed down when they realized it was not a negotiable issue. I've seen parents who took their kids out of the seat at every peep. Well, yeah, they'll cry to get out... Be consistent and come up with a code. Depending on the age of the child, you can discuss this ahead of time. I used to shake my head and say "no, not this time" over and over... and she calmed down! They put up a fight if they know you'll break down, which many parents do.

If there were ever car seat haters and active children, my oldest and youngest are!


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *missbuns* 
That's so interesting. Do you go on a lot of short flights? As someone who has flown 2-4 times a year on 10-14 hour flights for the past 10 years I always make a huge effort to be respectful to the people around me. I can not STAND to be kicked throughout a 14 hour flight and I think other people deserve for parents to at least try their best.

I always sort of introduce myself to the people around us and if there is a free seat suggest the person in front of my daughter move for their own comfort, which they often do. But the last few flights have been 100% booked. I can not imagine not allowing the person in front of my child to recline their seat for 14 hours. What if they have a bad back or something?

If I had a rear facing infant I would make sure I was in bulkhead, business or the plane was half empty. Or else I would install the seat FF so the person can recline.

The airline was really cool about moving us to a proper seat for my daughter's car seat to fit. I'm pretty sure if you explained about the reclining issue they would put you in bulkhead or at least leave the seat in front empty. No one wants pissed off people in airplanes and being able to recline is kind of a "right" every passenger has.

The thing is, most bulkhead seats these days are extra legroom seats, and they charge extra for them. Something we just aren't going to pay for! We try to keep our kids from kicking the seats, and they're pretty good about it. But if I have an infant in a rfing seat, they are staying rfing. I actually think it's kind of rude to really recline your seat. Takes up all the lap space for the person behind you. So I rarely do, and if I do only a little.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I've never had a problem with people getting upset about not being able to recline their seats. It's either they can't recline their seats or they have to deal with a kiddo kicking their seat, so usually they are pretty happy with not being able to recline!


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *missbuns* 
That's so interesting. Do you go on a lot of short flights? As someone who has flown 2-4 times a year on 10-14 hour flights for the past 10 years I always make a huge effort to be respectful to the people around me. I can not STAND to be kicked throughout a 14 hour flight and I think other people deserve for parents to at least try their best.

Our last flight consisted of a whole lot of us verbally and physically reminding our oldest about kicking. ;-) I don't mean being disrespectful to other people, but the truth is, safety trumps comfort, every time.

As for reclining, when I was a kid flying with my mom, she wouldn't LET me recline my seat, nor would she recline hers, because it was rude to the people behind us. I still pretty much feel that way unless it's a red-eye and EVERYONE'S seat is reclined, because we're all trying to sleep.

I've had a bad back, and the *last* thing I wanted was to be reclined at that angle. Puts all the wrong pressure on you, and is almost impossible to get out of.

Also, as far as 10-14 hour flights, unless they're between Alaska/Hawaii and some part of the eastern US, they're not domestic flights, so all bets are off. FAA regulations only apply to US carriers. We haven't yet flown internationally with our kids, and are putting that off until the youngest is at least five, so we likely won't be bringing carseats (we'll go places that a car isn't necessary at our destination though).


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## missbuns (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Our last flight consisted of a whole lot of us verbally and physically reminding our oldest about kicking. ;-) I don't mean being disrespectful to other people, but the truth is, safety trumps comfort, every time.

As for reclining, when I was a kid flying with my mom, she wouldn't LET me recline my seat, nor would she recline hers, because it was rude to the people behind us. I still pretty much feel that way unless it's a red-eye and EVERYONE'S seat is reclined, because we're all trying to sleep.

I've had a bad back, and the *last* thing I wanted was to be reclined at that angle. Puts all the wrong pressure on you, and is almost impossible to get out of.

Also, as far as 10-14 hour flights, unless they're between Alaska/Hawaii and some part of the eastern US, they're not domestic flights, so all bets are off. FAA regulations only apply to US carriers. We haven't yet flown internationally with our kids, and are putting that off until the youngest is at least five, so we likely won't be bringing carseats (we'll go places that a car isn't necessary at our destination though).

Yeah, I'm talking about international or really long flights. If the flight is 1-4 hours who cares about reclining. I think the "would you rather be kicked or recline or ask to move" question is valid on flights under 4 hours or so. I don't know about the rules on Euro flights but I've seen a lot of carseats lately (probably mostly Americans) and they are usually in bulkhead, where on my last flight on an American airline they were EVERYWHERE, like in the middle of rows even.

That thing about more expensive "leg room" seats is pretty dumb though. I have mostly flown BA and the bulkheads are the infant/kid seats where they try to place kids and don't cost extra.

I also don't recline unless it's sleeping time and the person behind me has reclined, and even then I ask.

And the thing someone posted about turning the seat is GREAT. If I had an infant in a bucket blocking someone's recline on a 14 hour flight I would only have it RF during take off and landing, since that's the only time it's really safer.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Infant buckets are not designed for forward-facing, so there's no way to properly install them FF. Turning forward would really only apply to convertible seats. That's the only kind of seat I've ever taken on an airplane anyway, though.


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