# 'Discipline' for a 9 month old



## LilMamaAngel (Dec 19, 2006)

I apologize for my post. I came here looking for some advice on HOW to gently discipline my child and yet got bombarded for how I DID discipline my child. I think sometimes people forget that we learn how to parent FROM our parents and that isn't always the best way. Hence the reason I came HERE asking for better advice than what my mom gave me. I didn't expect to have people jump on me.


----------



## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

nevermind....


----------



## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

In my opinion, you don't. There is NEVER a reason to hit a baby. A nine month old's job is to explore and learn, and the grown up's job is to make sure he/she is safe by providing a safe environment. Have you tried some redirection/distraction? Is your baby's environment babyproofed and safe for exploration? Can you put things up/away?

What do you mean by violent?


----------



## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

You can't 'discipline' a 9 month old baby. All you can do is discipline yourself! Smacking your babies fingers is not going to teach him anything but that her mama will hurt him. Babies are too little to make any connection between their actions and whatever punishments are inflicted upon them. It is your job to keep your baby out of harm's reach, and if he breaks something or gets injured, that's not his fault. Also, time-out is not going to teach him anything either, it's just going to confuse him.

Don't worry about discipline. Worry about whether or not your home is babyproofed so he can safely explore. Worry about people giving you advice to hurt your baby who has no understanding of why you are hurting him. Educate yourself about what is developmentally normal for young children. Educate yourself about gentle ways to guide children. Tons of research has been done proving punishment as an ineffective form of discipline. Mostly it hurts and humiliates your child without any real learning taking place.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

You don't.

Period.

I'm not sure from your OP, but please understand that there is NEVER a justifiable reason to strike an infant. My 2nd is now 10 months and the thought of someone hitting her bitty hand makes me want to vomit









Your job is to keep him safe, and keep his environment safe for him.

By describing him as 'violent', I think you may have some inappropriate expectations of what is normal developmental behavior in an infant. Babies aren't 'violent'. They are curious, and they explore. Textures, sensations, physical reactions. There is not mal-intent involved.

Might I recommend reading Dr. Sears' "The Baby Book"? It might give you some ideas of what is age-appropriate for a 9 month old, and how to interact with your baby.


----------



## Jazzymama (Dec 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
You don't.

Period.

I'm not sure from your OP, but please understand that there is NEVER a justifiable reason to strike an infant. My 2nd is now 10 months and the thought of someone hitting her bitty hand makes me want to vomit









Your job is to keep him safe, and keep his environment safe for him.

By describing him as 'violent', I think you may have some inappropriate expectations of what is normal developmental behavior in an infant. Babies aren't 'violent'. They are curious, and they explore. Textures, sensations, physical reactions. There is not mal-intent involved.

Might I recommend reading Dr. Sears' "The Baby Book"? It might give you some ideas of what is age-appropriate for a 9 month old, and how to interact with your baby.


Yup, good advice... I second all of that!


----------



## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

When my babies hit me, I take their hand in mine and pat my cheek and say "gentle". I don't expect them to get it, but it is a building process. Demonstrate (sp?) what is appropriate and they get it eventually.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)




----------



## LilMamaAngel (Dec 19, 2006)

I am not advocating physical discipline.... I edited my post since it did sound that way...

And I agree, it is not a hallmark of good parenting. Never tried to say it was, if it came across that way it wasn't meant to.

How about some good advice instead of jumping on me? All I was looking for was a better way to handle it and all I've gotten is grief. Not exactly fair, is it?


----------



## LilMamaAngel (Dec 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
When my babies hit me, I take their hand in mine and pat my cheek and say "gentle". I don't expect them to get it, but it is a building process. Demonstrate (sp?) what is appropriate and they get it eventually.

That's good advice, thank you!


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

heh, welcome to MDC


----------



## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Okay well first of all, the title of your thread is "discipline" for a 9 month old. I can see how people might take that the wrong way....

That being said....

I think children try to communicate in more ways than we know or notice sometimes. I don't know the specifics of your situation, or know your child personally, so I can't give specific advice but...

I really hope you find out what could be going on in your baby's brain and what you can do to remedy it.

I know MDC can seem harsh sometimes but the ladies here really do have the best intentions, and alot of good advice and experience, so please stick around!


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i second/third/whatever the fact taht you can not discipline a 9 month old. They do not understand restrictions, limitations.

its our job as parents to protect them from dangers, and from themselves. If you find you can not babyproof rooms, etc., then you need to wear him/her during those times.

its confusing when you basically edited the OP out so there are no facts given.

sorry you feel jumped on, but if you are spanking (slapping a hand, bum, etc.) a child, that is against the philosophy of gentle discipline and Mothering. Hitting children in any manner, IMO, is abuse. sorry if that sounds harsh. it sounds like that is the environment you came from. Just ask yourself how you felt when your mom hit you. Is that how you want your children to feel about you? I suspect it isn't or you wouldnt be asking for advice.


----------



## LilMamaAngel (Dec 19, 2006)

And that is why I am here... To raise my child differently. Otherwise, I wouldn't AP at all.


----------



## greenlace (May 23, 2005)

*discipline means "to teach".* look it up in the dictionary.

to the op: just some support from another mom...it's great you are looking for other ways to discipline your dc. it's hard a lot of times for a first time mom. sometimes we are so afraid of raising a "brat" that we over-discipline. my 11 month old is very smart and is always turning things that should be safe into weapons. she laughs at me when i say "no" or when i speak in a stern voice. for her it helps to removeher from the situation/object and tell `her `how it's dangerous etc or like a pp said "we use our hands to show love" and then demonstrate a gentle touch. it takes many years to train a child, and even longer for it to sink in. you can do it, don't get discouraged.

and to the poster who said that a 9 months can't be violent. oh yes it's true.....children, including BABIES, learn from their environment (op: i'm not saying you have a violent home, obviously i don't know). a baby who sees violence at home WILL learn to be violent. the only other exception i can think of is rare: when a child has a chemical/hormone imbalance..this can cause aggressive behavior.


----------



## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Ok Mama's how about some suggestions on how to redirect baby who has discovered hitting?
My suggestion
1. use the word "gentle" and teach her to pet.
2. Distract her to look at something interesting.

Does anyone else have more creative ideas?


----------



## greenlace (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Okay well first of all, the title of your thread is "discipline" for a 9 month old. I can see how people might take that the wrong way....

That being said....

I think children try to communicate in more ways than we know or notice sometimes. I don't know the specifics of your situation, or know your child personally, so I can't give specific advice but...

I really hope you find out what could be going on in your baby's brain and what you can do to remedy it.

I know MDC can seem harsh sometimes but the ladies here really do have the best intentions, and alot of good advice and experience, so please stick around!


i agree!! some people are very quick to be offended, or sometimes what we want to say just dosen't come out the right way in our post. just ignore the harsh comments-they might just have had a bad experience and have a hard time separating it out from yours....WE ALL DO IT!


----------



## 555Baby (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenlace* 
and to the poster who said that a 9 months can't be violent. oh yes it's true.....children, including BABIES, learn from their environment (op: i'm not saying you have a violent home, obviously i don't know). a baby who sees violence at home WILL learn to be violent. the only other exception i can think of is rare: when a child has a chemical/hormone imbalance..this can cause aggressive behavior.

I never saw the more detailed OP but I think it's unfair to say that the only way a 9 month old would have any violent behavior is if she comes from a violent home. Our dd was quite the head-butter when she was around that age (even though butting us in the head must have hurt her as much as it hurt us!!) And I promise you we do not have a remotely violent home, and she had certainly never seen head-butting modeled. She just started doing it for a while and eventually (thankfully!) she stopped. She has gone through phases like that with just about every form of violence you could imagine from a toddler--there was a biting phase, a (very unpleasant!) pinching/eye-gouging phase, some hitting, etc. NONE of this is stuff she has experienced or witnessed from us, and until recently I was her 24/7 caregiver so she wasn't seeing it anywhere else either. She's just an experimenter, I guess. She is not particularly aggressive in general, so I really doubt that she has some kind of hormonal imbalance, either.

That said, I think there is room for 'discipline' of babies--mostly it takes the form of physically stopping the behavior. For example, if she looked like she was going to head-butt me, I would hold her shoulders or whatever so she couldn't get close enough, while explaining that mommy doesn't like to get hit in the head. If she were to be going for an electrical outlet or some other dangerous thing (out in the non-babyproofed world), I would physically pick her up and explain that outlets/whatever are dangerous and not to touch them. It of course doesn't change their behavior immediately but they do eventually learn and in the meantime you have solved the problem by not letting the baby do the bad thing.

And of course, sometimes you aren't paying quite enough attention and you get hit/bitten/whatever anyway. And that's life. Some people suggest really demonstrating to the baby that this hurts (crying "OWWW!!" or something), though for our sensitive dd this didn't seem like an effective technique--if I cried out (generally involuntarily!) from her hurting me, she would burst into tears--she took it very hard.


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

w/ re: to the definition of Discipline:

dis·ci·pline Pronunciation (ds-pln)
n.
1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.
3.
a. Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.
b. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.
c. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.
4. Punishment intended to correct or train.
5. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.
6. A branch of knowledge or teaching.

i stand by my position that 9 month olds can not be trained, or controlled, regulated or any other manner of control as provided for in this definition.

redirection and controlled environments are the only things that will work at this age. However, modeling appropriate behavior is a good thing to do at this age. It is just not going to get any results...for several more months. My almost 12 month old can not be disciplined in the sense that things can be explained to him and he should be expected to understand and react accordingly. That level of cognitive ability is just not available to a 9 month old.

why i insist on continuing to bang my head on the wall i don't know.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I will say it again. A 9 month old CANNOT be violent.

Violence requires INTENT. Mal-intent. A 9 month old is incapable of mal-intent. Sure, babies are little monkeys, and can mimic, but to say a 9 month old is being violent because he is mimicing a violent relative would be an extreme injustice.


----------



## LilMamaAngel (Dec 19, 2006)

I apologize that this turned into a debate.

I just wanted to say thank you for the advice given. Today, we've done a 'checklist' when he's getting that way and we're actually getting some positive feedback from this. I've started putting his hand to my face and saying 'gentle' when he hits or scratched. It's not working, per se but the other way wasn't either and this is much nicer. I found that this morning, he got mean right before rubbing his eyes for a nap. So, I think if I just pay a little more attention and go by my little 'checklist' (ie, more food/drink, diaper, etc) that I can figure all this out. I am still going to bring it up to my ped. According to my herbalist, anger manifests from the liver and given the many medications the poor child has ben on in his life, he could have something going on there too.

Thank you all for your advice. I am hoping that some simple restructing of our schedule and of DH's and my brains (both parents recommended smacking of fingers, etc) and things will be so much better. He already seems happier...


----------



## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

Something that's worked for us, as well as doing the "gentle" approach, is to pretend to cry and be hurt when dd hits us. I want her to know that hitting hurts other people because obviously she doesn't know that. It has really worked for us, and worked with ds too when he went through a bit of an experimental phase.

And for people who say that it's a learned behaviour, rest assured that we do not hit in our home, ds does not hit dd, and I can't think of a place that she would have witnessed violence, but it's something she's done from a young age in frustration. As soon as she could control her hands, she hit out if she was angry or frustrated, as soon as she learned to walk, she added pushing and shoving to her list of ways to demonstrate anger and frustration. The other day she bit my arm. She hasn't learned it anywhere, it's just how she shows how she's feeling. We're trying to teach her acceptable ways of showing she's cross (so yelling, stamping, etc but NOT hurting people) because I want her to know it's ok to be angry, but not ok to hurt people. She's 15 months btw.


----------



## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

OP, I am really sorry you felt attacked. I hope my post didn't make you feel attacked, as that was not my intent. I thought you were brave for posting what you did. You sound like a person who is very open-minded and growth oriented. Again, I apologize.

Good for you for seeking help! If only more people did that







.







I second the 'gentle' approach. It takes a lot longer to work, but has more positive and long lasting results. Keep trying!


----------



## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

You can also give baby something they can bat at or hit. my dd loved hitting objects so I tied a balloon to the ceiling and let her hit that or I would give her a beach ball.

Remember that while your babe is exploring they are also wondering about cause and effect. If I do this- what happens? They are not trying to hurt you but may be wondering what their hand does when it "hits" your face. And babes are not thinking "if I hit mommy, she will cry becuase I hurt her," what they might be thinking is "wow, that sounds neat when I do that, lets do it again."

I also would gently hold my dd's hand when I couldn't offer her something to hit. I would tell her "mommys holding your hand so you can't hit me." I would let her hand go when she wanted. She actually loves to hold my hand when we are snuggling and I think it is becuase we spent alot of time learning about gentle touches becuase she liked to hear the slap sound.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I can't say that I've ever been impressed by the behavior of children who are disciplined physically. As a matter of fact, it seems almost the opposite. Often they are the worst behaving kids in the group, and their parents try to justify their hitting by pointing out what problem kids they are.

I tend to think that these kids lose the abililty to interpret and respond to normal social cues about what's 'right' or 'wrong'. I mean, if my boss socked me upside the head every time I missed a deadline, how well do you think I'd be at understanding subtle verbal and nonverbal communication about how well I was doing and what was expected of me?


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilMamaAngel* 
I apologize that this turned into a debate.

I just wanted to say thank you for the advice given. Today, we've done a 'checklist' when he's getting that way and we're actually getting some positive feedback from this. I've started putting his hand to my face and saying 'gentle' when he hits or scratched. It's not working, per se but the other way wasn't either and this is much nicer. I found that this morning, he got mean right before rubbing his eyes for a nap. So, I think if I just pay a little more attention and go by my little 'checklist' (ie, more food/drink, diaper, etc) that I can figure all this out. I am still going to bring it up to my ped. According to my herbalist, anger manifests from the liver and given the many medications the poor child has ben on in his life, he could have something going on there too.

Thank you all for your advice. I am hoping that some simple restructing of our schedule and of DH's and my brains (both parents recommended smacking of fingers, etc) and things will be so much better. He already seems happier...

















debates are good sometimes. there is no need to apologize. I admire you for seeking help when you KNOW you need it.

just one thing i want to add b/c i didnt address it earlier.

I don't think babies can be violent in the sense that they INTEND to do anything but i do know that my son enjoys hitting things. I don't know why..its not even when he's angry/tired/cold/etc. He will do it anytime someone picks him up. He loves to just whack ppl. Our responses haven't been much different than what others have suggested here, but it really hasn't made that much of a difference so far. His fav. thing is to rip your glasses off your head (which is not a good thing for a mom that is 1/2 blind without her glasses).

anyway, just that one clarification. i hope you find being gentle more pleasing. It prob. wont change your baby for awhile but it will definitely make for a happier home.


----------



## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

Just wanted to clarify that when we do the pretend crying thing to show dd that she's hurt us, we also say something like, or have each other say "Oh dear, Mummy is feeling sad because dd hit her and it hurts. Let's be gentle and storke Mummy's face." I've not had the situation with either of my children, who have very different personalities, thinking that it was a fun noise, let me do it again to see if the same thing happens. But then dd has never hit me just because she thinks it's funny, she only ever hits out in anger or frustration.


----------



## SweetMamaMe (Jun 26, 2006)

I disagree and think that babies can be violent, rarely, and I have a friend that has a mentally disturbed 9 year old that started out 'violent' before 1. That being said, I don't think the op's original post should be picked apart to the point that it was. Ridiculous. Those that practice GD...could you practice a little more gentleness here, please?

Our dd, also at 9 months appeared to have some violent tendencies. I don't know what the op said, but our daughter would head butt, hit, slam into you, etc. Now I know that she has some sensory issues and is a sensory seeker. You might want to check that out if it sounds like your child. It appears that they are trying to hurt you, and it doesn't hurt them (or my dd anyway), but quite the opposite b/c she was a sensory seeker and it felt good to her.

Hugs to you and I hope you find the answer you are looking for!!


----------



## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
When my babies hit me, I take their hand in mine and pat my cheek and say "gentle". I don't expect them to get it, but it is a building process. Demonstrate (sp?) what is appropriate and they get it eventually.

ditto that


----------



## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Good for you that you recognized he was probably tired this morning! I know I'm more likely to lash out when I'm tired. . .

One more thing you might want to watch for as well, and maybe I'm way off because I'm not sure what you said originally, is to see if he starts acting more aggressive after eating something in particular, say dairy products, wheat, artificial dyes, high fructose corn syrup, etc. Since he's only 9 mo he may not be eating many solids, but just something to keep in mind.

Something I've found very helpful in my reactions to hitting and the like from ds and dd (and dd is doing it a bunch right now) is to remember that they love me and they're not really trying to hurt me. Kids, and babies especially, don't wake up in the morning thinking "I'm gonna make my mom miserable today!". Their behaviors, although they may infuriate us and lead us to think they are nasty, hurtful little people, are just an *attempt to get some sort of need met*. Misguided attempt, yes, but a real attempt nonetheless. Hitting can just be an attempt to get close to you when they're hurting inside and can't figure out how to do it another way. Especially when they can't talk, they are trying to communicate with us, and it's our job to look deep inside, beyond the hurtful action, and figure out what they are trying to say. Have you tried signing with him at all? Maybe he's really smart and really wants to communicate things with you but just can't do it verbally so he gets frustrated?

Oh, and you said he's been on lots of meds already, when we started doing alternative treatments for ds's food allergies, the doc said that pretty much all of his organs were upset, and the most upset was his liver because it had too much mineral oil in it- evidently when you take meds or use body products containing petroleum your body can break them down to mineral oil but then it can't do anything else with it and it sits and upsets everything. He gave ds a supplement that helped his body release it and things improved after that. He still needed many more treatments for the allergies but we could tell that his body had calmed down.

Good luck! This is a process, and you have good days and bad days but as long as you pick yourself up and keep trying to improve then things will!


----------



## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

also wanted to point out that with babies, disciplining seems to almost dare them to do it again? I know that when my first child was about 10 months old and I didnt know any better, and i was "NO" ing him and tapping his hands for touching the radiator and its buttons, he would just go right back at it. I didnt do it all that often, but it seems that when I did, It didnt work anyhow. I think what worked the most was removing the baby from what he/she was trying to touch, get into, whatever. For me a distraction from hitting me would be to get playful, and kiss the hands and do lots of snuggle kisses, and then give the baby a toy to play with or something... that way you arent making a big deal out of it.

The baby keeps touching something in the room, put it away, move the child, give them a toy, or go to another room.


----------



## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilMamaAngel* 
I found that this morning, he got mean right before rubbing his eyes for a nap.

I am glad you are finding advice that can work for you but I wanted to add alot of it as about perception. A baby can't be "mean". He might be frustrated and is using his body to thrash about and be frustrated but he isn't intending to hurt you or be mean. At this point you are still an extension of himself and hurting you would mean hurting himself. I suggest reading child development books, maybe picking up a Dr. Sears book from the library. I know it can be hard to step out of how we think and how we perceive things -- but babies are truly different and do not have the same intentions that we do and their actions do not carry the same intent. I know that even when my 3 y/o throws something or pushes something he doesn't do it with the mean intent that a 25 y/o does or as a parent would hitting there child. A small child doesn't understand the consequence of its actions in the same way. But it is essential as parents to educate ourselves and prepare ourselves for future problem issues that we perceive WE have problems with (not our babies). Start with Dr. Sears.


----------



## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

I just wanted to say that I really like the idea of using cue words like "gentle", "dirty", "dangerous" etc. It really seems to be working for us.
DS (13mo) hits sometimes when he gets excited, like when he is excited to see another baby, or a cat or dog. We have been telling him to "be gentle" whenever he hits, and we then take his hand and show him how to pet gently. He is now starting to get it, and although he still gets too excited to restrain himself, he is now being more gentle on a regular basis.
Certain things in the house (like the trash and toilet) we label "dirty". He RARELY goes near these things. If he does most of the time all I need to say is "uh-uh, that's dirty" and he will turn around. If he doesn't on his own, I will re-direct him myself in a gentle way.
Same goes with things that are dangerous.
We are also trying to impliment the one-finger touch thing. This worked really well for the Christmas tree lights. He enjoyed pointing at them, but rarely would grab them. If he did, we would say "One-finger" and show him how by playfully touching the lights ourselves with one finger. He thought it was fun.
We are pretty laid back with our expectations as well. I do not expect him to get any of this stuff yet.... especially not all the time. When he does seem to get it I rejoice over that, rather than focusing on all the times he does not have the self-control to contain himself.
At 9 months, 12 months, whatever, the world is just too exciting and new to be able to contain yourself! It is impossible for them to have impulse control for some time to come.
DS is also non-verbal, so I try to understand that throwing his body around or throwing his fists around is one of his only ways to communicate. Babies have strong feelings, yet no words to express them. The best way to help them out is to verbalize their feelings for them and help them find a more appropriate way to do what they need to do. If your baby wants to hit something, find something you are okay with her hitting. If she wants to throw something ...ditto.
Eventually they will get it.
Hitting children takes the focus off how they affect others by their actions and puts in on how it will affect them. IMO, it creates a selfish way of thinking and only keeps them from doing the forbidden action when there is someone around to inflict the punishment.
I understand what you mean about needing practical solutions. I also recommend beginning with Dr. Sears. I also enjoyed Playful Parenting... it was just a very different perspective.


----------



## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
I am glad you are finding advice that can work for you but I wanted to add alot of it as about perception. A baby can't be "mean". He might be frustrated and is using his body to thrash about and be frustrated but he isn't intending to hurt you or be mean.


I wanted to add that I totally agree with this! One of the best things I have done for my outlook on life is "attributing a positive intent" to all people around me. Basically, when someone does something, you think of something positive that they must be trying to do instead of assuming that they were just being jerks. Like, someone cuts you off in traffic. Instead of yelling or cussing or the like, say "Gee, they must be in a hurry. I hope they get where they are going safely." I know it sounds totally cheesy but once you start to internalize it, people in general seem to be more okay. I was riding with my FIL and it was like everyone on the road was out to inconvenience him, and I realized that I have come a long way and I'm glad that I'm not harboring those negative feelings to all these people around me, ya know? It has helped how I interact with my kids too, because instead of assuming that ds was trying to hurt dd when he shoves her over I am able (most of the time) to say "You were trying to protect your tower, so you shoved her. You may not shove her, shoving hurts. If she gets too close say "E, move away from my tower" or ask mama to pick her up." It takes my feelings down a notch when I think this way. It's from the book _Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline_ by Becky Bailey, which is a fantastic book! It may not apply to your ds since he is so young, but it will soon!

I don't know what he has been tantruming about, but I think dd was about that age when she started getting really mad when I would try taking things away from her, even if I was trying to trade her for something else. A baby toy is just not as cool as a fork







! Something that really helped was letting her do things herself. So if she had a fork and I wanted it in the sink, I'd say "Oh! That fork needs to go in the sink!" and I'd carry her to the sink and let her drop it in. It might take a few promptings once we got there, but she would get a huge smile when she did drop it in and I'd say something like "You dropped it in the sink! Now mama can wash it!" or whatever, as long as it was in an upbeat tone. Or if she had the phone I'd have _her_ put in on the cradle, that sort of thing. It really minimized power struggles and she would generally do whatever I asked, as long as _she_ got to do it herself!

I know society doesn't value parenting all that much, but sometimes I feel like I've learned more and worked harder than I ever did in college!


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilMamaAngel* 
I've started putting his hand to my face and saying 'gentle' when he hits or scratched. It's not working, per se but the other way wasn't either and this is much nicer. ...

















That's great. I find a lot of gentle discipline is like that. . . doesn't necessarily "work," but neither does screaming and yelling and at least you all feel happier at the end of the day! I second The Baby Book or even The Discipline book by Sears.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Eh, I think babies can be mean. Mine was.







She was beating on me by nine months. At 12 months, I remember saying "Oh, that hurts mama. You don't want to hurt mama!" At which point she said "Yes!" and redoubled her efforts to pinch me.

She's 3 now, and much better at controlling her impulses. but just the other day she explained that she wanted to a make a little girl at the park cry, because her friend G makes her cry. She didn't lash out, and we're very proud. But her tendency to take out her frustrations on others has been present since at least 9 months.

Don't minsunderstand me. I think she's an awesome kid. She's just emotional and impulsive, and her instinct is to direct her irritability outward.

Smacking her wouldn't have helped teach her how to deal with her emotions. So no, physical discipline isn't a good response to children who don't know how to handle their emotions. What has worked for us is time, patience, modeling behavior, and more patience.









I know my take on things isn't popular here. I can live with that. But I don't think meaness is the most horrible thing in the world, either. It is a natural human impulse, and one that we all have to work with. It comes more easily for some than others, but I've yet to meet a person who was never mean.


----------



## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, and I think I missed some other post, but I wanted to add my advice for what it's worth, as I use to teach and care for babies and infants and have a lot of observational experience.
I have seen many, many babies act " violent" and almost every time the cause of the act was simply attention seeking or cause and effect experimentation. For example, little Bobby would pull Susie's hair and Susie screams and cries. Bobby's infant brain thinks " wow, look what i did, pull hair and she screams, interesting". Infants do not necessarily have a sense of empathy, which is why a lot of people see "mean" behaviors. They can look you dead in the eye and slap you across the face and not even remotely get that they just hurt you. All they understand is that they do "a" and "b" happens and it is a way that they explore and understand their world and the people in it.
Other causes of physical behavior could be teething ( especially biting), wanting attention, HALTSS ( hungry, angry,lonely, tired,sick,sleepy), frustration ( try to imagine what it must be like to be a baby and TOTALLY dependent on someone else to fulfill every single need you have, that can be very frustrating).
Try not to take it personally, I have yet to meet a baby who has not experimented with this kind of behavior. Your baby will earn as they grow, and that empathic pathway in their brain WILL develop, it just takes time. Aside from teaching empathy and gentleness and modeling appropriate behavior for your baby, one of the big keys is to try and remain very calm and neutral. Believe me this is hard, I know, but using a very bland, almost bored voice when you say "no hit,bite,etc.." is extremely important.
It's never too early to teach your child appropriate skills and behavior just keep in mind that there is a big difference between punishment and discipline and the outcomes are different too.

Namaste,

Michelle


----------



## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
but just the other day she explained that she wanted to a make a little girl at the park cry, because her friend G makes her cry. She didn't lash out, and we're very proud. But her tendency to take out her frustrations on others has been present since at least 9 months.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head right here. Someone hurts her, she doesn't know how to deal with it, so she hurts someone else and feels better. It's called emotional hot potato. You know, the boss yells at the parent, parent yells at the kid, kid kicks the dog, dog bites the cat. . . It's very possible that somewhere along the line she felt hurt because of some trauma and lashed out at someone, and felt better. So it clicked- someone hurts me, I hurt someone else, I'm happy again! I don't think I'd call her mean- mean to me is hurting someone else just because, but she's hurting someone else because that's how she gets past getting hurt herself. I know, it does seem like splitting straws, but the words we choose make such a difference in our reactions, and the words we are labeled with as children can really make a huge impact in the way we view ourselves. Evidently you have been doing fine being patient and gentle with her even though you consider her mean, but I know that I struggle much more being patient and gentle with someone I consider to be mean. A misguided attempt to recover from a trauma is something you can learn from and find other ways to handle, being mean is something that you _are_, does that make sense?

You said your take on things isn't popular, so I'm assuming others have said stuff in the past and I apologize if what I said was just annoying. I guess as someone who was told she was mean when she was younger I am resistant to refering to others this way when there are other, more constructive ways to label the behavior.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetw&e* 
I think you may have hit the nail on the head right here. Someone hurts her, she doesn't know how to deal with it, so she hurts someone else and feels better. It's called emotional hot potato. You know, the boss yells at the parent, parent yells at the kid, kid kicks the dog, dog bites the cat. . . It's very possible that somewhere along the line she felt hurt because of some trauma and lashed out at someone, and felt better. So it clicked- someone hurts me, I hurt someone else, I'm happy again!

This is a belief and not a fact, but I think that lashing out in order to feel better isn't something that has to be learned through trauma. It is a pretty basic instinct. Apes and monkeys do it, too.

Quote:

I don't think I'd call her mean- mean to me is hurting someone else just because, but she's hurting someone else because that's how she gets past getting hurt herself. I know, it does seem like splitting straws, but the words we choose make such a difference in our reactions, and the words we are labeled with as children can really make a huge impact in the way we view ourselves.
Short of sociopaths, I don't know anyone who hurts someone else "just because." I guess I'm an optimist, but I think must hurtful behavior is done because the person is trying to meet a need. Sometimes a person doesn't know better ways to meet that need, and they act is destructive and self-destructive ways. This doesn't make them "mean" as an identifying label. I think my last post was unclear - I think "being mean" is a verb. People aren't mean; they act mean.

I understand what you mean about words and labeling, but I feel that tiptoeing around words like "mean" and "aggressive" lets us save the words for those who are _really_ mean people. And I don't see it like that. We're all mean sometimes, and we all have the task of being less mean. Part of the human condition.

Quote:

You said your take on things isn't popular, so I'm assuming others have said stuff in the past and I apologize if what I said was just annoying. I guess as someone who was told she was mean when she was younger I am resistant to refering to others this way when there are other, more constructive ways to label the behavior.
Oh, no worries. I rarely opine on these issues. I just know that my saying that babies can behave in mean ways is not the standard belief here in GD. But as I went into above, I don't believe that some people are mean and some aren't. Overcoming the impulses to be mean is harder for some of us, to be sure. My daughter is one of those people. So I am.







But the same qualities that make it tempting to lash out also make life so much richer - passion, depth of emotion, etc. Human traits are all have two sides to them.


----------



## Lynnseedoil (Aug 18, 2005)

I only skimmed the thread but I wanted to say that we also have issues with "gentle", especially with DD and our long-haired cat! What's worked for us is teaching her one-finger touches. Instead of drumming on him with her open palm or grabbing hands-full of hair, she uses one finger (and thumb... we're working on it!). I found it easy to teach because I can held her hand in mine with only her index finger exposed and said "one finger touches" while showing her what to do. This worked very well for us. She still experiments with the cat but sometimes if I say "one finger" from across the room, she actually does it! Wow!

Also, there is a great reading list sticky in this forum. I'm working my way through it and I've at least gotten one or two things (if not much more) out of every book I've read from it so far. Adventures in Gentle Discipline, The Discipline Book, and Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline are all great books. Happy reading!


----------



## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
Short of sociopaths, I don't know anyone who hurts someone else "just because." I guess I'm an optimist, but I think must hurtful behavior is done because the person is trying to meet a need. Sometimes a person doesn't know better ways to meet that need, and they act is destructive and self-destructive ways. This doesn't make them "mean" as an identifying label. I think my last post was unclear - I think "being mean" is a verb. People aren't mean; they act mean.

I understand what you mean about words and labeling, but I feel that tiptoeing around words like "mean" and "aggressive" lets us save the words for those who are _really_ mean people. And I don't see it like that. We're all mean sometimes, and we all have the task of being less mean. Part of the human condition.

Okay, I got it and I understand.







"Mean" as a verb meaning "hurting others" not "something really bad people do". Yes I agree, it is part of the human condition to want to hurt others sometimes. _Aggressive_ I don't have problems with, it's the _mean_ that feels like a kick in the stomach (which obviously is my reaction).

I also know that when I was younger and I would hear "That was mean" I would take it as "I am mean or I wouldn't have done that". I don't think kids (or many adults for that matter) separate actions from self, I know lots of adults who define themselves by what they do- when you ask someone "who are you" often the first response is their job. But that's not really who they are (but obviously you really understand that!)

Language is so tricky sometimes! Thanks for clarifying, I think I'm going to work on reminding myself to separate nouns from verbs and and how they apply to us this week.


----------

