# Say "NO!" to whipping babies!



## lovemybaby

Hi dear activists,

On the Amazon.com website, the book "To Train Up a Child" is getting all these glowing 5-star reviews lately. The reviewers are extolling the virtues of this book that recommends whipping infants and toddlers into complete submission. They're saying if you don't whip your babies, you'll end up with disrespectful, stupid kids who throw tantrums all the time. Have a look: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...nDate&n=283155

If you're an Amazon.com customer, please write a review of this ghastly book about "training" babies, here are some excerpts and a link for writing a review: http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

Thank you, please speak up against these child abusers.


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## stirringleaf

while i am certain i wouldn't agree with the advice this book gives, because i am against spanking of any kind, i think the link you provided from the stop the rod website wasn't really informative enough, believe it or not, for me to feel educated enough to speak out about this book. Its excerpts are basically partial sentences and paraphrases, so its hard to know what the authors originally wrote. I wish there were full paragraph quotes or at least a few sentences in a row, so i could get a better understanding of the book,and form more of my own critiqu of it, rather than taking that websites word for it. It's good they put page nuumbers next to thier quotes, that's definatly helpful.

I guess I could go read the book at Barnes and Noble, but i certainly would be embarrassed to be seen reading it and i wont buy it, so its unlikely i will get informed enough to go post on Amazon about it. I think it would be great if someone who is an activist about this book could simply type in whatever lenght of excerpts are legal ( i think 100 word quotes are ok?) --- just for other parents out there who are interested in speaking against it, but want to be better informed first.

its just a suggestion. it truly seems like an awful book! i just want to learn more.

ETA sorry about grammar and spelling, i dont have time to fix!


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## lovemybaby

The whole book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl can be read online at: http://city.hokkai.or.jp/%7Erepent/E...s/TrainUp.html

This is mentioned in the stoptherod webpage on writing reviews, about 2/3 the way down the page: http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html


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## stirringleaf

fabulous! thanks alot! i guess i could have simply asked that!

just felt like







about it, lol


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## lovemybaby

Sure thing! I don't want to buy it either, it's convenient that it's all online. One suggestion: keep a barf bag handy, it's pretty shocking...


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## phathui5

Ugh, not this book again.

This is written by the same guy that said on his website to take your husband back into the home if he molests your children but "repents."


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## rachelmarie

Very disturbing, I have to say. I just read the first little bit of the book (using the link provided). I was shocked to read that these people think that a newborn baby has the ability to manipulate his/her parents with crying. Give me a break.

I looked on the Pearls' website and couldn't find anything, but I was wondering if they have any qualifications at all for writing a parenting book - any degrees in psychology, medicine, etc.? I'm guessing not. So if my assumption is right, I can't believe all the people who wrote reviews on Amazon praising this book would take the advice of people who have no qualifications whatsoever.

It literally makes me nauseous to read this kind of stuff, and even more so to know that there are parents who are taking it to heart and using those horrible parenting "techniques" on their children.


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## gottaknit

Thanks for the link to the online text. It is so sad. The entire "training" technique revolves around pain and fear. Why would someone want to raise their child to grow up to be a mindless follower of anyone who speaks harshly to them or threatens them physically?

Hitting a baby everytime it grabs your eye glasses, with the objective of making the connection "glasses cause pain"?! Yeah, great idea. Good luck when it's time to take this kid to the optician.

This book is especially dangerous for little girls. They will grow up and seek out men who beat them "because he loves me".


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## gottaknit

From the book:

_A mother came to us concerned for her fourteen-year-old daughter. She had been reared in a very protected environment and was outwardly obedient, but the parents felt that there was a breach in the family ties. When given a chore, the girl would obey, but with a sullen attitude. It seemed to this mother that her daughter was tolerating the family and was not at all pleased with the company. There were periods of withdrawal. She seemed to have her own little world. With no outward disobedience, there was nothing for which to reprimand the teenager. This mother had lost fellowship with her daughter._

Don't they get the connection here?!! The poor kid hates her parents and is just putting in her time until she can make her escape. What do they expect when you beat your kids into submission?


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## Junebug

uke

Quote:

One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

*WTF!?!?!*

Okay... I am abso-freaking-lutely mortified!!! What Mama didn't love you, Pearl? It makes me physically ill to think that someone might follow the advice of this human turd. I feel so sad for their poor children.


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## kathipaul

If you go to nogreaterjoy.org you will find the Pearl's website which states that they are in favor of using the biblical "rod" as a means of discipline. They state that light spanking and light swatting are all you should do and you should never hurt a child. Of course, I believe any kind of swatting or spanking hurts a child but that is their position. They do not advocate whipping a child into submission. That being said, I still believe it is unfortunate and sad that biblical fanatics believe that following the "word of god" gives them the right to be domineering, egomanical control freaks. These fundamentalists are just as dangerous, I believe, as the fundamentalists in other countries we fear and war against. Writing a letter to amazon is not going to stop this madness. However, reporting these maniacs to the child protection authorities if you even suspect they are endangering their children is the best we can all do to protect the poor, sad children being raised in these households.


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## lovemybaby

Of course the Pearls claim they aren't advocating anything other than what THEY call a light spanking. They sugar-coat what they are advocating. But what they describe in the book "To Train Up a Child" is using a belt, a "switch" or tree branch or other OBJECT to hit infants and children (p.47) They don't say to use your hand, they recommend always using one of these objects to hit. And they say to do this for "every transgression!" (p.1)

You can split hairs into eternity about what "whipping" is, but whatever you call what the Pearls advocate, it is inhumane and brutal. And they say to do it even if the child decides to obey (p.46) until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper" (p.80) or until they are "totally broken" (p.59). They even say to hit babies for crying (p.60, 61), and to tempt babies into touching something they shouldn't, then whipping them (or whatever you choose to call this brutality). They actually recommend setting up these "training" sessions on purpose!

Followers of the Pearls have been adding 5-star reviews of this book all through the month of March, because the Pearls asked them to in their March newsletter. We must speak out against what is arguably the worst book on parenting ever written. This helps warn gullible parents, and the low rating of the book helps discourage people from buying it as a gift. Young parents, especially of the fundamentalist persuasion, are being encouraged to parent using the Pearls' "training" techniques. Churches are actually promoting this book, asking the Pearls to come and give lectures on "child training" - using corporal punishment from the earliest stages of life to obtain "instant obedience." Some churches actually buy boxloads of this book at a discount and give out copies to members. Please write a review, many people will see it - Amazon gets 1,000s of visitors daily and other websites link to their books! Please speak out for the little ones. Here's the link again for writing reviews: http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

You can write Amazon complaining about them selling this book. They almost never remove a book, however. But they do publish reviews of the book.

To judesmama, no, the Pearls have no degrees in psychology, medicine, or child development or anything similar. And they aren't ordained in any religion.


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## kiahnsmum

This makes me so sad, I am a christian and my belief is that to be a christian is to be like christ, I cant find anywhere in the bible where jesus says to hit children, only verses which indicate that jesus treasured children. These people have a lot to answer for.


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## Boobiemama

Years ago a woman I met told me of this book. We were at her house swimming for the day, and she went to the bushes, grabbed a small stick and broke the leaves off of it, said she was getting it "just in case". I was visibly shocked, and she went on to tell me about the book. And defend it too- mde sure to tell me she was not abusing her child.
i checked the book out fromt he lbrary and was shcked to say the least...


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## chfriend

Suggestion: Cut and paste links so MDC is not the referring site.

Here's a link at no great joy that says that people disagreeing with them are "possessed."

http://www.no greaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=2&tt_news=221

(Cut and paste and take out the space)


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## nekochan

The review from March 30, by V. Diamond really makes me sooo upset.







I can't believe people really believe this stuff.


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## Diane~Alena

I laugh when people say that the bible verse "spare the rod and you spoil the child" means to hit the child with a rod! The rod in Bible times was used to guide the sheep not to hit them. The verse means to guide your children so they don't get spoiled. Children were spoiled in bible times often nursed untill 5 years of age and carried next to the mother, why would they inflict pain on such a loved one?This writer is plain old mean! I read the quote on how to tease the child and hit them for taking the bait. I think that is so cruel I hope they don't have any children of their own.


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## girlndocs

That's not even a bible verse, actually.


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## MotherEarthMom

That's totally sick and should be taken off the market,and the Pearls should be investigated for child abuse and their kids taken away.


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## Benji'sMom

_One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

WTF!?!?!

Okay... I am abso-freaking-lutely mortified!!! What Mama didn't love you, Pearl? It makes me physically ill to think that someone might follow the advice of this human turd. I feel so sad for their poor children._

The _switch_???


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## lynsage

i don't know if any of y'all have ever been spanked or "switched", but a "light spat" with a thin, flexible rod hurts MORE than the same amount of force applied by an open hand or something else with more surface area.

it stings. badly.


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## mermommy

IF you have already left a review on amazon :

don't forget to vote if ratings were " helpful" to you

and don't forget amazon sells at least 3 of the pearl's books - all can be reviewed....

Fair warning though many of the positive reviews made me feel physically ill.


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## PM

Quote:

hey do not advocate whipping a child into submission.
Hello?

Quote:

Try it yourself. Place an appealing object where they can reach it, maybe in a "No-no" corner or on an apple juice table (That's where the coffee table once sat). When they spy it and make a dive for it, in a calm voice say, "No, don't touch it." They will already be familiar with the "No," so they will pause, look at you in wonder and then turn around and grab it. Switch their hand once and simultaneously say, "No." Remember, you are not disciplining, you are training. One spat with a little switch is enough. They will again pull back their hand and consider the relationship between the object, their desire, the command and the little reinforcing pain. It may take several times, but if you are consistent, they will learn to consistently obey, even in your absence.

Quote:

It just takes a few minutes to train a child not to touch a given object. *Most children can be brought into complete and joyous subjection in just three days.*


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## juju's mom

:







:







:

those poor children







:

Jenn
baby girl julia







girl:


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## Super Pickle

Glad to see this post.

A girl in our church gave the pastor's wife a copy recently. Pastor's wife, who is a really great, down-to-earth mom was telling me about it and how she agreed with like 10% of it and hated the other 90%. I agreed to read it and loan pastor's wife _Families Where Grace is in Place_ (opposite philosophy), and then we could go for coffee and discuss the 2 books. We got all excited about having our little "book club." But now that I've read the Pearls' book on that link, I don't even feel like it's worth talking about. What can you reasonably discuss?


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## lovemybaby

Here's a webpage to do reviews of "No Greater Joy" vol. 1 by the Pearls http://www.stoptherod.net/NGJ.html

This book also recommends hurting infants and children with a "switch" or "rod" to "train" them. On p.6 they give this advice "If your spankings are too light to gain his respect, an increase in the intensity might be more persuasive." On p.85 they recommend giving a little girl who won't get into her car seat "five licks with a stinging switch." If the girl still doesn't get in the seat "repeat the switching." If she continues to refuse to get in the seat he says to take the seat into the house and strap the girl in it for "two or three hours."









They also recommend giving a child "a terrible tasting herbal potion" if the child says he/she is hurt







This book is so crazy and sick, the same kind of abusive treatment of infants and little children as "To Train Up a Child." I don't know anything about the other 2 volumes of "No Greater Joy."

I can't believe churches encourage this insane "training." The Pearls have no religious, medical, or psychological qualifications whatsoever. They don't appear to have even heard of Jesus or what he said. They like to show off their 2 oldest kids, who are now in their 20's, as living proof that their "training" works. But those young people weren't subjected to baby-whipping. The Pearls only got into that stuff later on, with their younger children. And what are you proving, anyway, if you whip someone into total obedience to you? Sure, they'll do what you say, torture "works", it has since the dawn of time. People "trained" according to the Pearl's techniques are programmed from infancy. They're so messed up and out of touch with their own feelings they'll probably never comprehend how their minds were twisted, how they fake seeming happy. They don't know real happiness. I think that's the worst thing about the Pearls, that they use physical punishment for expressing negative feelings. If you can only show "happiness" because you were forced to stop crying or else, and put on a happy face, what kind of person are you?


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## Tigerchild

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
But now that I've read the Pearls' book on that link, I don't even feel like it's worth talking about. What can you reasonably discuss?

Oh, SP, I think it could be a great conversation (though not necessarily a happy one, or a "light" one). How about asking her what was the 10 percent she agreed with? How does that balance with the 90 percent that she does not? What does she think of the scriptural "correctness" that the Pearls claim?

When I read the online copy from start to finish, there was one section that I did like (though to be honest, knowing that it is in place with the draconian "enforcement" makes it scary, but if one were to take it out of that context, it would even fit in on this site!). I don't have the chapter number, but it was in the section in which Pearl talkes about "tying strings". He describes several instances where he was overbearing (no kidding) with his older (I think they were teenagers?) children, and immediately felt shame and sadness for "cutting the strings" that linked his heart and theirs. He (even this guy who's big into child training) says that as soon as he realizes by the look on their face or their actions that his thoughtlessness has hurt them he apologizes and gently (dunno what that means for him though) woos them back into relationship with him. I could see a normal person liking that section. My greatest concern would be that they would assume all the beatings would get them to a place where they felt connected to their kids, when probably the opposite is likely to occur--they'll be less responsive, not more!

So, I personally would be pretty interested in what she liked about it, as a launching point. Then you could talk about how to get to that point without using those techniques?

I was up for way too long last night reading the Pearls' website. I think their methods are cruel. But I actually don't get the impression that they hate their children. In fact, I get the opposite impression in fact, which makes it more frustrating and horrifying. I'm sure that Michael and Debi Pearl would think less of me than dirt under their feet, but I found myself laughing out loud at some of the non-parenting stuff they wrote (which was meant to be deliberately funny). And I was shocked to find a very moderated, sensible approach to the "betrothal" fad that is going around extreme conservative circles right now (I have a few cousins that are embroiled in that, yikes.). I found myself appreciating some of M. Pearl's sarcasm in that particular essay, I even thought about sending it to some of my relatives, before they get too more involved in the current practice. A lot of their parenting stuff for older kids (preteen and above) children is not too bad (or, no worse than other conservative stuff, perhaps even better in some respects).

Maybe these people just don't like small kids in general, and are better with older ones. It's unfortunate that they're taking out their own intolerances and dislikes and turning them into a "scripture-based" parenting philosophy--and doubly unfortunate that M. Pearl doesn't even seem to realize that irony, considering his rant on biblical "twisting" and the current courtship fad.

So. I don't know, perhaps I had better put on an asbestos suit here--but while I do think their parenting recommendations for young children are appalling and immoral, I really do NOT get the impression that they are evil people who hate their children. Having read their whole site, every essay, ect. I get the impression that they love their own children very much, even if they do the wrong thing. I think they have a very very VERY different worldview than mine. But perhaps because I have such proximity to ultra-conservative Christian culture (several of my relatives are or were dresses-only, no medicine, quiverful, headcovering, betrothal, strict gender roles, no-SSNs-for-kids, off-grid because of evil government--in many cases the only way I can describe it is cult-like), they really don't seem all that bad to me in THAT context.

Doesn't mean I agree with them, though, or that I like to see people sucked in to it. I just personally can't call THEM evil, when I don't even know them, and I've heard more unreasonable things come out of the mouths of people that I know and love (even if we don't have much contact any more, their choice).


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## Super Pickle

Thanks Tigerchild









I totally agree with your points, now that I have calmed down and am no longer seeing red. At this point I truly feel that I could have a loving, compasisonate conversation about this book with both my pastor's wife and the woman who loaned it to her. It was never that I had a shortage of opinions, just that I couldn't conceive of how to communicate them without coming across as judgemental and arrogant.

I don't think they're evil people either; I think they have a misunderstanding of early childhood development which translates into harmful childrearing practices. They have little tolerance for babies' and toddlers' age-appropriate behavior (let's face it; not many people do). But their children are blessed with life in a big family on a farm; homeschooling; a close-knit community; a TV-free household; and a mother and father who are around a lot and care about them, even if they are using bad tools. These good things are likely to minimize the harm done to them by detachment parenting in the early years.


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## Tigerchild

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
I don't think they're evil people either; I think they have a misunderstanding of early childhood development which translates into harmful childrearing practices. They have little tolerance for babies' and toddlers' age-appropriate behavior (let's face it; not many people do). But their children are blessed with life in a big family on a farm; homeschooling; a close-knit community; a TV-free household; and a mother and father who are around a lot and care about them, even if they are using bad tools. These good things are likely to minimize the harm done to them by detachment parenting in the early years.

You know what is particularly devastating to me is that they seem to think it is the switch that has given their family closeness and bright, go-getter children. When, as you point out above, it's all those other things. It makes me really sad to think how they could inspire people and do many many many good things (esp. in that culture) if they practiced more moderate discipline (I don't think GD will ever happen in that culture, to be honest) and emphasized all the other stuff *more*. I know that I should (and I do) feel the sorriest for the children involved, but I also felt myself wanting to shout through the screen at the parents--because they are clearly bright, very loving, unconventional (speaking of within their culture, ultra-conservative christian, not speaking of the mainstream, though they're certainly unconventional there too), funny, fun-loving, hard-working people.

It frustrates me that if they JUST modified their approach to early childhood, without necessarily giving up their morals or beliefs, then wow! What an impact they could have! M. Pearl says not to strike a child with your hand, because hands are for loving. It's really heartbreaking to think of what could have been, if only he had gone just a step or two further.


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## lovemybaby

Yes, the Pearls sure don't get it about early childhood, and what babies and young children really need. They are very invested in doing what is "convenient" for the parent. This kind of stuff sells, people always want an easy way out. And with the Pearls having sold 100's of 1,000's of their books, and magazines, videos, etc. etc., they've made a fortune from their awful advice. They've had plenty of chances to stop doing this, plenty of people speaking out against their abusive ideas. But they keep trying to push their ideas on new parents.

Regarding being raised on a farm and having lots of siblings, I don't think that makes a happy childhood, unless the farm is an organic veggie, fruit, or grain-type farm. Farms use tons of unhealthy chemicals, and farming with animals always involves slaughter and forced impregnation. I wouldn't want to raise my child in such an atmosphere. Farms are not at all like the toddler board books show them to be. And siblings aren't always a blessing. Studies show that only children, and first-born children, are happiest and most successful in life. It's best to space children apart by a few years, they get more attention and they need lots of that when they're young. UNICEF is starting to encourage 5 years spacing. Regarding homeschooling, sure it's good to get all that individual attention. I'm a homeschooling mom myself. But if I were a child I'd rather be in school than at home with people who are hitting me and my siblings, who "rejoice" when my playmates hurt me, who encourage me to touch the hot stove, who pour cold water on baby brother's genitals to get him to pee, who deny me food when I've lost my lunch money and new shoes when I've lost my shoes. The Pearl's methods are extremely harsh, abusive, and indifferent to children needs and feelings, they seem so even to most Christians. And their methods have led to parents having restraining orders put on them, and losing their children, when they are convicted of child abuse.

Good luck with your discussion, Super Pickle. My guess is you and the Pastor's wife will agree on most things.


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## Thursday Girl

really tired hope this makes sense.

I couldn't get to far I was horrified (and exhausted) but it just struck me, the whole

unquestioning children. i want my children to question. B/c that is a real world skill. I don't want them beleiving everything there told because everything they are told isn't true. I do wnat them to have respect and feel that if I resect my child she will respect me. As a child I had absoluelty no respect for people who didn't respect me.

it does seem to be the Easy way. but parenting isn't easy.

i had a gentleman tell me all about this kind of stuff. he does it with his kids, it just made me want to throw up, he went on and on.. Said how he used oh man what was it i can't remeber right now but "it doesn't break blood vessels like using a bare hand"

I told him i believed in gentle discipline. and what sense does it make to hit a child for hitting.. etc etc.

ok to tired. off to bed

\Court


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## dingogirl

From their website:
If you enjoyed Romans, you need to hear Colossians. Learn about your spiritual circumcision. Rise to complete victory in knowledge that you indeed have risen with Christ and are an overcover of the world, the flesh, and the devil.

WHAT THE...???

Are the Pearls Pentecostal Christians? The reason I ask is because Pentecostal Christians have more problems with major depression:

Data from the Duke Epidemiologic Catchment Area survey were used to examine the relationship between religious affiliation and major depression among 2,850 adults in the community. Religious affiliations were categorized into six groups: mainline Protestant (27 percent), conservative Protestant (59 percent), Pentecostal (4.2 percent), Catholic (2.4 percent), other religions (2.6 percent), and no affiliation (4.4 percent). The six-month prevalence of major depression among Pentecostals was 5.4 percent, compared with 1.7 percent for the entire sample. Even after psychosocial factors such as gender, age, race, socioeconomic status, negative life events, and social support were controlled for, the likelihood of major depression among Pentecostals was three times greater than among persons with other affiliations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

My brother is a Christian Fundamentalist. He and his wife speak in tongues (sorry, that's definately not God speaking through you) They put their children on leashes and hit them. The wife was seen spanking their 9 month old baby-Why? Because the baby was due for a nap and wouldn't stop crying.

I don't understand it.


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## Paradise

The link that CHFRIEND provided above about:
people disagreeing with them are possessed

These people, claiming 150,000 strong, are very frightening. I just took the time to read almost every link, in full. I tried to have an open mind, and hear what they were saying. They are treating their beautiful children, ALL who have the human gift of reason, as primates! Infant monkeys! Or should I say submissive sheep!

And they call us possessed.

I feel that the movement we have just witnessed of people advocating beating their children and tricking them out of their "manipulations" are a prime example of de-evolution. Regressing. Angry, childish people, who have given up on feeling their own judgment, deciding to follow an idea they see with many followers, because it is easiest and it makes your children look obiedient to the other members of the community. Lost parents, who hurt their babies because they don't know how to raise them.

You all have made a huge impact on the reviews for amazon. Just go look, it's beautiful.

What can we do to show the followers a differant way to live? we can do this, does anyone have an idea of how?

love you all

ami paradise


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## Paradise

Tigerchild, your longer post above is so right on! Props!

Also, this paragraph on the web-site sent a chill down my spine.

So the nice detective left, having come to the conclusion that the ladies who were reporting us did not KNOW us. He was satisfied that everything we do and teach is within the law. Since he left, I have honestly been expecting him to invite us to teach foster parents how to train the State's children. We welcome cooperation with them. They need direction desperately. So, we would like to thank the "damsels" for helping to give us a clean bill of "child-training" health. We are now officially investigated and approved, however unnecessary it was. Thank you, damsels.

Was that directed to us!?


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## Fuamami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Yes, the Pearls sure don't get it about early childhood, and what babies and young children really need. They are very invested in doing what is "convenient" for the parent. This kind of stuff sells, people always want an easy way out.

Yeah, probably especially if you have 13 kids and no technology. Not a whole lot of time left to spend developing children's minds and personalities. Isn't this why we're glad our society's evolved?


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## Homeschool Mom

Many thanks for starting this thread. I am an Amazon reviewer and never thought to review a book that I knew to be against my personal, moral and religious beliefs. As soon as I saw this thread though, I had to go to Amazon and express my disgust and dismay at the cruelty being passed off as child "training".

As a former psychiatrist, I can not begin to tell you how many adults are suffering because of cruelty they endured as children. Unfortunately, these cases are not limited to the relatively small number of Evangelicals but the Evangelicals are more agressive about putting their views on the subject in print.

I should be clear that I consider myself Evangelical (or fundamentalist as some may call it) but I and all of the other Evangelicals I know at the horrors of people like the Pearls and the Ezzos.

Having worked with many parents, I can tell you that parents want easy answers and the Pearls have them.

No one wants to hear "Take the next year, learn how to pray, fast and read your Bible so that you can become a better Christian and by default a better parent."

Most would much rather read a book on "Beat you child into submission in 10 days". Again I should stress that my patients were all races, religions and ethnicities and it made little difference in their desire to have children that did not bother them too much. The easy way is the American way.

I am glad that this opportunity to speak up on Amazon was pointed out to me today.

If only one parent is stopped from buying those horrible books, my mission (and God's mission) will have been accomplished.


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## KingsDaughter76

"This is written by the same guy that said on his website to take your husband back into the home if he molests your children but "repents."

uke This made me throw up!! My soon to be ex dh has not repented, but even if he did I would NEVER allow that monster back into our home! My children need to feel safe! How sick to recommend something like that to mothers of sexually assaulted children!

Makes me sick!!


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## jools

I really didn't realize that there are real people who feel this way, that their children are like animals. I got nauseous reading that online book - only part of it, and I had tears in my eyes about the little baby girl getting switched for climbing stairs.

"I looked over to see a young mother struggling with her small child. He seemed determined to make her life as miserable as possible--and destroy her reputation in the process." --- This is referring to a child with a bottle, so we can assume he's probably 2 or younger... how in the WORLD can an educated adult believe that that kind of adult emotional motivation exists in a baby??

Wow.


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## mommy2boys

I just spent way too much time rating reviews, but glad I did. I hate that book and all it stands for. An old neighbor used that book to raise her three kids. Very sad. We used to babysit them often. We struggled with whether or not to call the police.
One day our kids were swimming together and her daughter just barely 2 at the time had all these cresent shaped bruises on her thighs. My first niave thought was she bruised from vaccines. So I said Oh she bruises from vaccines like Ethan does. She said well I'm glad that's what it looks like, no she wouldn't finish her dinner, then goes on to say, it wasn't that I hit her hard it's that I had to hit her so many times. I never felt so nausious in my life.
I babysat the children 2 or more days a week and they were always perfectly behaved for their parents but weren't so much for me because they knew I would never spank them. Apparently they were misbehaved for everyone but the parents. She offered her copy of the book for me to borrow, I declined. She was a very nice person and sadly thought she was doing what was best. I talked to her a lot about positive discipline, unfortunatly I think it fell on deaf ears. There are more stories but I will spare you all. That book is truely child abuse, I have seen it first hand. My heart still breaks for those kids. I was actually excited when I found out they are moving to a Italy where it is illegal to spank your kids.


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## Thursday Girl

i've been reading about the Pearl's and Ezzo's and it makes me sick, I can not wrap my brain around how people actually think they are doing the right thing. I wrote a review for the book, but wanted to ask about rating the review's the best rtaed get put at the top? lt me know.

I can't believe this stuff is legal. something big is going to happen b/c of this stuff. it's all going to blow up.i feel it. it has to

courtney


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## lovemybaby

A review was just added today, 5-star, about how the reviewer's family is joyous and happy! Ugh. This is how the Pearls get kids to be happy:

"If (babies) are mad, switch them. Don't let your child stay unhappy. Meet the real needs and make their selfish crying an unrewarding experience." p.87 "Just think! A child who never begs, whines or cries for anything! We have raised five whineless children. Think of the convenience..." p.60

The Pearls like to point to their "happy" obedient children. Other people are impressed with how they smile and "obey." But you see how it has happened, and that their "happiness" is fake.

I found it interesting and bizaare to read on p.93 that Michael Pearl has lasting resentment toward a school principal who whipped him:

"The school principal did the really serious paddling when I was in school. I have lived nearly a half century and still feel apprehensive going into the office at a public school. He and I had a couple of serious encounters. One of these days I am going to make an effigy of a school principal and then tell him to bend over and grab his ankles."

Maybe this guy needs some empathy, then he could see his demented baby-training abuse for what it is. It's so obvious he doesn't "get it." How can you be whipped by someone, then expect to "tie strings" as the Pearls call it? Sounds like sado-masochistic type training, "How To Give and Receive Domestic Violence in the Name of Love!" This kind of stuff creates our future wife-beaters and abused girlfriends. Not to mention continuing the cycle of child abuse.

Thanks everyone, for writing reviews! And for rating the reviews, too, that also helps! We've got to speak out, this is an opportunity to voice our objections to this insanity.

To Jewelysmommy, the most recent reviews are listed first, other than the 2 "spotlight reviews". The 2 "spotlight reviews" seem to be chosen by Amazon.


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## Junebug

Who are the Ezzos?

I swear, I have been losing sleep over this book! I am shocked that these disillusioned people(Pearl supporters) really believe that pain-compliance is disipline!!!







:







:
I just checked out stoptherod and was sickened all over again.

Quote:

On p. 34 Michael Pearl relates the story of a mother hitting her 11 month old who doesn't want to eat any more "spinach-squash-mush" and pushes it away. The mother "picked up her little enforcer (whip), which was lying on the table, and swatted the child's hand." When the baby tries again to push the unwanted food away she "received another spat." Michael Pearl says about this scenario: "I loved it. It was beautiful."
I have no doubt that this unfortunate child will develop a raging eating disorder before too long. Who are these sick bastards? How do these parents sleep at night? It just seems so unnatural to me...how does one justify this insane behavior?
As someone who was never spanked, I cannot imagine what that must feel like- to have the person who's supposed to love and protect you above all, come after you in anger*** and physically attack you.






















***BTW-I don't buy all that crap about these parents not being angry while "training", I'm calling bullsh*t on that one! Okay, sorry, must stop...I'm making myself crazy


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## Paradise

Reading these words, from you ladies, and from the Pearls, makes it hard for me to not hate them.

I don't want to hate.

Ideas for changing their minds......

E-mail storm, to any address we can find of the followers of the Pearls, or them, explaining how we feel.
If anyone has ideas, or e-mail address', please tack on to this forum.


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## lovemybaby

You can write to the Pearls, authors of "To Train Up a Child", at

http://nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=95

To ORjuniper, the Ezzos are a couple who, like the Pearls, have published books advocating hitting babies, for supposedly "Christian" reasons. They also are really into scheduled feeding of babies, which has led to "failure to thrive" sometimes. They believe in ignoring crying. Kind of the opposite of attachment parenting. They've made a lot of money from their "Babywise" child abuse books.


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## Tigerchild

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Paradise*
Ideas for changing their minds......

E-mail storm, to any address we can find of the followers of the Pearls, or them, explaining how we feel.
If anyone has ideas, or e-mail address', please tack on to this forum.

To be honest (and I am somewhat familiar with this culture) unless you are a socially conservative Christian yourself, who can argue scripture and come from a standing of living your faith (faith being defined as what they practice), your words will have little effect on them. In fact, they may enjoy them as evidence of their correctness, since "the world" and "those who hate god" (meaning you) rail against their practices.

If you were to really chase after them, you would invoke their hairtrigger persecution complex (after all, look at the response to the reviewers thus far--it only, frankly, eggs M. Pearl on more. I know the type, they thrive on that sort of thing.).

I think you are much better served to write things directed at third parties that point to a better way, rather than condemn the Pearls outright. All it takes, after hearing someone scream about the evils of a person/practice and how it's always wrong or they're all evil is just ONE instance of the opposite. That unfortunately cuts both ways. Do not feed into their persecution complex or give it validity. Instead show what intelligent, compassionate, loving people practice non-violent ways of parenting.

There is a world of difference between saying,

"The Pearls are child abusing freaks!"
and
"The Pearls advocate corporal punishment of 3 month old babies, and extended periods of ignoring infants' cries. We encourage parents to follow their instincts and to be responsive and gentle with their babies so that they build a strong foundation for child guidance rather than setting them up to only respond to fear."

In all my dealings with this particular culture, you really have to be careful not to get sucked into deep emotion. (Actually, this is probably a good idea with ANY group of people with whom you're speaking of a controversial subject, to be honest.) You want to help people make good decisions, not draw them in for a Jerry Springer-esque episode of who can out freak who. (Don't let it become a Pearls vs. Anti-Pearls thing--or else you will keep the focus on them and not on the alternatives.)

I do think it's important to warn people about this type of parenting. But I'd strongly urge caution in how you approach practitioners, or even how you behave on forums about it. You can't let them get the best of you emotionally, otherwise you will have more people turning away from you and towards them.


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## lovemybaby

I agree, trying to get the Pearls to change is a long shot. I've tried talking with people of their persuasion and it just gets very frustrating. And emotions run high, because we want so badly to protect the babies who are completely helpless and can't escape. And who learn to think that being whipped is normal.

Still, I think it's VERY important for us to speak our minds. Imagine growing up in that kind of extremely harsh environment, and finding out when you're gown that nobody tried to defend you, to get your parents to stop hitting you/starving you/not giving you shoes/pulling your hair? I think it could help to write to the Pearls saying you will pray for them, or that there are other ways to teach children politeness and responsibility. Say what kind of gentle discipline has worked for you, offer to send them literature on gentle discipline. You might offer sympathy to Michael Pearl, who half a century later still has revengeful fantasies of beating the school principal who beat him. These are non-confrontational things to say, no name-calling.

Also, it really does help to write reviews, to state what you object to in their books. We don't need to demonize the authors, just their "training" methods. People are less inclined to buy books for themselves or others if they have low ratings and are obviously controversial.

Unfortunately, the Pearls are just part of a tragic phenomenon in the US. Violence to children is very common here, with over 1,000 children dying every year from corporal punishment. While other countries, 14 now, have banned all hitting, we remain very backwards here in the US. Of all the industrialized countries, only 2 allow hitting of schoolchildren, the US and the desert "outback" of Australia. Of the 194 nations in the UN, only 2 have not ratified the UN Rights of the Child, the US and Somalia. And Somalia can't ratify anything, their government is in such shambles. So the US pretty much stands alone in sanctioning whipping of kids. And so we get a higher rate of violent crime than any other industrialized country, by far. All that pent-up anger and resentment from being hurt as a child leads to violence later on.

One of the most powerful men in the US, who has great influence over politicians and is a leader in the "Christian Right" movement, is James Dobson. He's head of "Focus on the Family." And he strongly believes in hitting children, using "switches" and "paddles"! Here are some articles about him:
http://www.nospank.net/eisner.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/DobsonsDog.html
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...obson_fear.htm

BTW, Dobson is not a pediatrician as one of the articles says. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics strongly oppose Dobson's views on hitting.


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## phathui5

ugh. Here are some more quotes:

Quote:

EXCESSIVE DISCIPLINE (p9)

"Except where the very smallest children are concerned, training at home almost entirely eliminates the need for discipline--especially public discipline. Yet, should the need arise in public, do a flanking maneuver and administer it; then go home and train so that it never again happens in public."

INSTRUMENTS OF LOVE (p47)

"For the under one year old, a little, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (stripped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eigth diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective."

THE OLDER SISTER (pp52-53)

"A two year old girl picked up an item that was off limits"
"The child threw a screaming fit"
"(That was her normal approach in paying back her parents-they considered such behavior normal)"
"My wife immediately set up a training session. She took the forbidden object and placed it back on the floor in front of the child."
"Deb said, "No, you can't have it. When the child grabbed it anyway, Deb, saying "No," spatted her hand with a little switch..."
"When she again reached, she received a spat and a calm command. After one or two more times the child learned her lesson."

STRIKING OUT (pp55-57)

"As my wife was counseling a young woman..."
"...(a two year old), upon failing to get attention, picked up a plastic toy wrench and began to pound his mother's arm."
"...little Johnny got tired of assaulting his mother and turned on my wife. After the first blow, almost without diverting her eyes from the mother, and with no change of expression, she picked up a matching plastic toy. This was not to fight back, but to train."
"...swiftly and with more than matching force, my wife struck."
"What is this little Johnny feels coming from his arm? Pain!"
"Again, Johnny strikes. Again, swift retribution (training really)."
"...he pulled back his pained arm and examined it carefully."
"...again, but with less force, he struck. The immediately returned blow was not diminished in strength. This time, I thought he would cry."
"...he again, with even less force, struck my wife on the arm."
"Again, my wife struck, seemingly, with all the force she could possibly muster without standing for a wind-up."
"...the two women had continued to talk, my wife, as if all was normal, the mother, with a facial expression divided between wonder and mild alarm. Johnny, tough enough for special forces, did one of those pained, crying faces covered by a forced smile."
"...with one-fourth the original force, he again struck my wife. This time her bottom came off the couch as she drew back to return the blow; and I heard a little karate like wheeze come from somewhere deep inside."
"Johnny must have had a Viking lineage for he continued to trade blows about ten times."
"...he gave a little tap that was returned with a swift, forceful blow."

THE PROPER RESPONSE (p59)

"If you are faithful to guard against and reward every infraction, whether in attitude or action, in just a few days you will have a perfectly obedient and cheerful child."

THREE-YEAR OLD MOTHER (p62)

"This three-year old little girl is a near finished product. The battle is won. As long as the parents consistently maintain what they have already instilled, the child will never be anything but a blessing and help."

HOT STOVE (p66)

"...until the stove got hot enough to inflict pain without deep burning--testing it with my own hand."
"...we never even raised a blister."

SINKING FEELING (p67)

"She just wouldn't fall in. I got weary taking walks to the pond. So, to bring the class to graduation, I pushed. Oh, she didn't know it. As she was balanced over the water, I just nudged her with my foot."

A HOSE WHEN HE GOES (p71)

"...had a big three-year old boy..."
"...the father took him out and merrily, and might I say, carelessly, washed him off. What with the autumn chill and the cold well water, I don't know if it took a second washing or not,..."
"Since then, several others have been the recipients of my meddling, and it usually takes no more than three cheerful washings."

THROWING A FIT--TEMPER TANTRUMS (p79)

"A seven month-old boy had, upon failing to get his way, stiffened, clenched his fists, bared his toothless gums and called down d###ation on the whole place."
"The young mother, wanting to do the right thing, stood there in helpless consternation, apologetically shrugged her shoulders and said, "What can I do? My incredulous nine-year old whipped back, "Switch him." The mother responded, "I can't, he's too little." With the wisdom of a veteran who had been on the little end of the switch, my daughter answered, "If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked."

BLOWING UP (p90)

"Let's create a likely scenario: One of the girls is trying to blow up a balloon while the brother, several years older...is preventing her from accomplishing her task and laughing at her helpless protests."

THE RIGHT APPROACH (p91)
in reference to the above...BLOWING UP.

"Try this approach..."
"Brother, was Sister having fun?" "No, I guess not." "Could you tell that she wasn't having fun?" "Well, I guess so."
"Were you having fun when your sister was suffering?" Silence.
"Look at me. How would you like it if someone bigger than you treated you like that?" "I wouldn't, he answers."
"Son, you know Hitler and his men had fun when others were suffering. They laughed while boys and girls cried in pain. Do you want to grow up to be like Hitler?"
"What great training!"

These are quotes from the book To Train Up a Child.


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## LadyMarmalade

.


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## lovemybaby

Here's a website that not only sells the Pearls' babywhipping book, but also a polyurethane "chastening instrument" to whip babies, they even sell the "instruments" in bulk http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/order.htm You can email them your thoughts on their babywhipping merchandise at [email protected]

With 16 countries banning all hitting of children, how can this extreme baby-whipping stuff be legal in the US??? It's sickening.


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## mamamelia

i was on my way to diggin in the earth and saw the title of this thread. wow... i am shocked to say the least. i will definately be writing a review on amazon and ticking which reviews were helpful etc... anything to even just stop one person from buying that book.

what a sick, f---ked up world we live in.


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## peacefullone

Could we report them to child protection services? I believe it's even illegial to spank foster kids? How can we find these things out?

Holly


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## peacefullone

One thing I can say is hearing what they write helps me to see what I do not want to do with my kids. They have wrong examples is what I see.

But is there a book of gentle discipline? I need that so bad! I've been struggling with spanking and not spanking. Please help!!! I want so much to do better. In some of these things I have read in what other's have quoted I have seen some of myself in them.








: at myself

Holly


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## Peepsqueak

I think the Pearls are despicable people. I had a personal experience with them by emailing them about a question about my dog. My dh did not like my poor doggies in the house and I was highly distressed. Since our marriage had many challenges and I emailed Mike and Debi about this. Debi emailed me back with that I should never question my husband's expecting my beloved poochies being left outside! She would never question her husband or and he would certainly NEVER let a dog in the house!






















Needless to say I was utterly shocked at this response. I emailed her again and asked what about bad weather and the animal's well being? She replied that I am surely in rebellion and will be doomed to hell for my compassionate heart. Does that make sense???? Are these people backwards or what?

That is why we must be so careful about taking advice from people who call themselves experts in family issues....this is dangerous! Can you imagine the tragedy of any advice of childrearing? I was horrified over the dog issue....I would not even attempt the child issues. My goodness!I emailed her and told her that Michael and she were real MEANIES!!!! Honest!


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## crescentaluna

These's so much to say here, but I just wanted to really quickly thank the OP for bringing up this dreadful, soulless, corrupting book. I'll be posting a review and rating reviews tonight. It WILL make a difference and I'm so glad to do it.


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## Momtwice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacefullone*
One thing I can say is hearing what they write helps me to see what I do not want to do with my kids. They have wrong examples is what I see.

But is there a book of gentle discipline? I need that so bad! I've been struggling with spanking and not spanking. Please help!!! I want so much to do better. In some of these things I have read in what other's have quoted I have seen some of myself in them.








: at myself

Holly

Isn't there a list of gentle discipline books over at the Gentle Discipline board here at MDC???


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## peacefullone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
Isn't there a list of gentle discipline books over at the Gentle Discipline board here at MDC???


thanks I found a list

Holly


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## maxwill129

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
That's not even a bible verse, actually.

Actually, it is, although that's not exactly what the verse says. It's Proverbs 13:24 > He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

I agree with a PP that said the "rod" in biblical times was used to guide the sheep. There's a thread about this in the Gentle Discipline forum and you can find plenty of Christians (even theologians) that say this verse and others like it are not talking about physical punishment!

This makes me so sick! I'm losing friends because of creeps like this who think spanking is okay!

Edit: Okay, I just read part of the first chapter. So these people are saying they're Christians and are using Biblical examples. I found it sad that they are saying that you should train your child to not touch by putting apple juice on the coffee table to do this...just like God placed the Garden of Eden right in the midst of Adam and Eve with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil right in front of them and told them not to touch. Do these people not know their Bible? Adam and Eve ended up touching and eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil...so either that approach doesn't work or they're saying God didn't train them right. Hmmm. And Christians are listening to them?!

One more edit: Do people not realize what the word discipline really means? Since when did this word start meaning physical punishment? Sorry, I am so ticked off about this!!!


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## Sharlla

I swear my stepfather must have read these books when raising me, ugg. I wrote a review but are they going to even post these reveiws?


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## lovemybaby

To crescentaluna - thank you for posting a review - they really do print them. This helps warn potential buyers of their book, and it's good for us to speak out. I'm glad you appreciate me posting this thread! A friend told me about the Pearls, at first I just couldn't deal with it, it was too outrageous. But when I finally worked up the nerve to read "To Train Up a Child" I just had to do something, it's so sickening, so wrong what the Pearls are preaching. The advice Debi Pearl gave about the dogs is typical of them - the man totally rules the house, the wife obeys him unquestioningly, the children and animals get abused if that's what the man is into. It's so sad...it's considered abuse of an animal in at least some US states to leave an animal outside in bad weather, or for extended periods of time. They just passed a law in Texas about not leaving dogs outside for too long. Apparently Debi doesn't mind breaking the law or behaving in a humane manner; obeying her cruel husband is more important









The Pearls are sick, demented people, with no qualifications whatsoever for giving out advice about child development. What they're saying is not new; these kinds of "child-training" techniques have been around for centuries, in Germany and other countries. I've been re-reading Alice ******'s "For Your Own Good" which has a lot of quotes from these old "child-training" manuals. Same stuff as the Pearls - whip them from infancy for any sign of "disobedience" to the parents, break their wills, neglect them when they cry, and use religious "justifications" for all of it. The scariest thing is that this advice still seems to appeal to some people.

17 countries have now banned all corporal punishment of children: Austria, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Croatia, Romania, Ukraine, Cyprus, Hungary, Latvia, Portugal, Israel and Bulgaria. Canada, the Netherlands and the UK are close to a full ban. And until we have a ban in the US we will be plagued by monsters such as the Pearls who hawk their baby-whipping methods. The more we speak out, the more likely something will be done about the Pearls. They are very frightening.

Thank you all for caring, it's encouraging to hear you







:


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## crescentaluna

my review at Amazon:
--------------------------------------------------------
Please, Christian parents - listen to the loving God you know, and use your common sense. Look at this book carefully: it encourages parents to switch infants for the sin of simply crying. It encourages parents to *tease* their children with a single goal in mind: to provoke "switchable" behavior. The author admits *kicking his own child into a pond*. None of these have ANYTHING to do with DISCIPLINE.

What is your goal as a Christian parent? Is it to enjoy a few "convenient" childhood years with a broken-spirited child, then to face a confrontational pre-teen, a rebellious and belligerent teen, a damaged young adult, and finally an adult who mistrusts and resents you? Use your common sense and look around at real families you know. Was prolonged and extremely painful mistreatement EVER a part of a healthy parent-child relationship? None that I know. I feel that my children were not given to me for my convenience, nor to create pride in my heart (a SIN, as I should remind some of the reviewers). No, they were entrusted to me to raise into lights of the future world.

In brief, this is a dangerous book, a corrupting book, and a profoundly NON-CHRISTIAN book.


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## marcey

That is a ridiculous philosophy of parenting.


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## LadyMarmalade

Quote:

I think the Pearls are despicable people. I had a personal experience with them by emailing them about a question about my dog. My dh did not like my poor doggies in the house and I was highly distressed. Since our marriage had many challenges and I emailed Mike and Debi about this. Debi emailed me back with that I should never question my husband's expecting my beloved poochies being left outside! She would never question her husband or and he would certainly NEVER let a dog in the house!
Needless to say I was utterly shocked at this response. I emailed her again and asked what about bad weather and the animal's well being? She replied that I am surely in rebellion and will be doomed to hell for my compassionate heart. Does that make sense???? Are these people backwards or what?
Oh. My. Gosh. They're truly psycho. I really hope they get investigated and thrown into jail. It's horrifying.


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## rozzie'sma

This is soooo disgusting! I grew up being beat into submission as a small child and I behaved. Because I was terrified of my parents. Thanks to this form of discipline I now have permanent nerve damage in my legs. I love being a 21 yr old with a limp. That was caused by 3 swats of a leather belt whenever I misbehaved. I cannot believe that anyone would go for this sort of thing. It just shows how cruel people can be.







I will never do that stuff to my dd.


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## wannabe

That book is just repulsive. I feel sick to my stomach. Hurting a nine month old baby who wants to grab at your glasses.


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## Sherra

Disgusting. I'm in utter shock. I'm christian (raised among conservative baptists) and I completely do not understand this parenting philosophy. I hate it when this type of stuff gets spread over christianity. I've never had a christian conservative church *ever* tell me how children should be raised, let alone to hit them and I've been to MANY. The more I read the more I felt that the words seemed to be filled with pride..which the bible clearly states in several places that pride is not a good thing to have in so far as what it can cost people in situations. Pride doesn't allow one to see where they are going wrong and can make someone very selfish to their own needs and to hell with other's needs such as children.

This passage in particular struck me weird (it's really selfish and pride sounding):

Quote:

"I looked over to see a young mother struggling with her small child. He seemed determined to make her life as miserable as possible--and destroy her reputation in the process."
I will not hit my daughter. I have to show her I can control my anger in another way and come to a resolution of what I want to have followed in a non violent manner. I do think when you are one that leads others down a bad path, you will have to answer for it...so I hope he will have to answer for his philosophy. I view my daughter as God's girl and I'm chosen to guide her through life for his purpose, not mine. I don't view I own her like a dog.

Sherra

PS. It is no wonder our prisons are filled with violent people. This definitely contributes to it.


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## Sherra

Ok, I went and did my part to try to help children. I went and rated all the praises for the book as not helpful....and the ones critiquing the book as helpful. If 10 mins of my time helped someone decide to not buy this book and save a child from this type of punishment, then I'm proud to have taken the time.

Please do so..this is important for when people go to review the book that they can do a search on the most helpful reviews..and the ones saying this book is not one to go with will be up top.

It enrages me that they claim God wants us to punish children in this way. I can't believe it. I have always lived by Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and I include my child and my dogs in that as well.

Here are his other books so you can help out with the ratings:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

and this one has too high of good stars:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Sherra


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## zipperump-a-zoomum

And, make sure you don't buy anything or support in any way The Old Schoolhouse, because they advocate the Pearls material.

Kaly


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## Sherra

I'll make sure to stay clear away from that homeschooling material.

Ok, I'm done with bumping up the bad reviews for those books so they are more visible. It took me total 15 mins..not bad for hopefully saving parents the grief of raising a child in that manner.

I heavily rely on these ratings and reading the perspectives when I go to look over a book...so this is important to do. Give these unknowing parents who review this book on amazon.com something to read other than wonderful reviews. Give them alternatives.

Sherra


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## Junebug

Quote:

I hate it when this type of stuff gets spread over christianity.
I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm one of those people







: I have a really private homeschooling family on my street that I've become a little suspicious of. Their kids are like little obedient robots & it all just seems very unnatural to me. DP and I were just talking about it the other night...we would never be comfortable with DD spending time at their house. They may be perfectly nice, sane Christians but people like the Pearls have cast a creepy vibe over all conservative Christians for me. Thanks Guys!







:
I hope I don't get torched for my honesty here , I know it's wrong- but I had to let you know that this kind of abuse (justified through the bible) _does_ leave an ugly impression of the religion.


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## hjohnson

The Pearl's children aren't legally married to their spouses because that would mean they would be unequally yoked with ********* as Mr. Pearl puts it. WTF!

These people are downright scary! I feel for their grandchildren because it continues. Also I feel for the russian boys they host every summer.


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## mgirl

oh my goodness, the thought of whipping a baby makes me tear up.


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## mrsd81

This book advocates whipping infants that are far too young to have the ability to know right from wrong. The writers of this book seem to endorse whipping a child for the slightest reason.
The writers also feel it is okay for a husband to abuse his wife.
Debi Pearl wrote a very disturbing book called "Created to be His Help Meet". Thoughout the book, women are demeaned. The book is a marraige manual, but the wife is always blamed for ALL problems in the realtionship. Chapter 23 is written by MIchael. He states "First, the chain of authority must remain intact, even to the point of allowing some abuse" Basically, the abused wife is encouraged to endure abuse in silence and submission, because this glorifies God. On page 270. women who threaten to report abuse to the law are called rebellious and a total failure of what God called them to be.

These people are clearly disturbed.


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## cottonwood

I added a review. Too bad you can't give zero stars.


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## cdmaze

As a Christian also...I'm totally offended by this book!

It was actually lent to me by a girl I know and I couldn't BELIEVE she actually followed this book. It makes me choke up with disgust to think of what happens to children whose parents do this.

And I've run into another one..."Raising Kids GOd's Way" or "Preparation for Toddlerhood" - also quite punitive and creepy.

If Christian mothers need support or direction...there are other resources, believe me. And they have to be Christian, either! Everything good is from God...including things outside the Bible.

I post on a site that specifically promotes gentle AP style parenting and Natural family living. And there are plenty of books that speak of Gods grace when referring to parenting and the treatment of children.

There is no excuse to settle for this kind of crap.


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## BurgundyElephant

"There is much satisfaction in training up a child."

I think that says their philosophy right there. They enjoy beating children.


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## monkeys4mama

Another Christian chiming in here to say that these people are not representative of Christianity as a whole. Christianity is actually a very diverse religion, with different denominations and sects varying widely in their doctrine, practices, interpretation of scripture, etc. Please, please, please, don't anyone conclude that these people represent anyone but themselves and the peculiar little subset of Christians they belong to.

Would it help to know that Dr William Sears is a Christian? He wrote a very excellent rebuttal to the Ezzos years ago. The article was on MDC. Remember the Ezzos? I'm so grateful to hear that they have lost popularity. I'm sure they're still out there, but I don't hear much about them anymore. These Pearl people will eventually disappear too.

Here's the link to the Sears article. Now there's a Christian man I much admire: http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...le_sayeth.html


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## monkeys4mama

If anyone posts reviews on Amazon or other places, perhaps you could suggest this book instead:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080...lance&n=283155

It's "The Complete Book of Christian Parenting & Child Care: A Medical & Moral Guide to Raising Happy, Healthy Children" by Dr. Wm Sears and Martha Sears. People need to know that there are other Christian opinions on parenting and Sears is a marvellous resource. He's also pretty well-known and respected, even among mainstream parents.

Just a suggestion. Not pushing Christian parenting on this general forum, just offering an alternative to suggest in place of those awful Pearls (and Ezzos).


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## Junebug

yuck.


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## bellona

Yuck









I read this book (you can view it online) because I couldn't believe that they would actually say some of the stuff I've heard they did. And guess what? It was worse than anyone ever said to me.

I clicked on the link to amazon and was pretty impressed that the rating has gone down







, but there was a review that really upset me :

Quote:

I find it interesting people that are opposed to this book are usually the ones that have the *little terrors* themselves. All to many times do we go into a place of business and hear a child screaming at his mother while she looks away. SHAMEFUL I say. I have whipped all of my kids and they are respectful to themselves, my husband, me and others. We live in a household of respect. A respect for EVERYONE in the house not just mom and dad. Sounds like some need to re-read Michael Pearl's book or write to them and ask questions if they don't understand, cause people, it is pretty clear on what NOT to do.








: I know the kids she's talking about...in fact I know many of them personally, and guess what? They're spanked







: . I have never spanked my kids, and I get compliments on the ALL the time. In fact, more so now that I don't use time outs or other traditional forms of punishments (basically if something is non negotiable, I make sure they do it, or we take advantage of natural consequences). They aren't perfect, but they don't scream when we are out.

How can the children in her house be RESPECTED when they are WHIPPED??????? That's just crazy







: . Is there any way to report someone online like this to CPS?? I mean, she actually says she has whipped all her kids. Not swatted, not spanked...but WHIPPED!

uke


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## monkeys4mama

OK, now that I've had a chance to read through some of that book posted online, I have some other insights to offer.

First of all, as a Christian parent, I always loved the proverb "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it." But I NEVER in a million years even considered interpreting the verse the way the Pearls have. It makes me sick. And horribly angry at them for taking such a beautiful and wise verse and perverting it so. Pearl suggests that the word "train" doesn't mean to raise or teach but to train, the way you would a horse. When they don't do what you want, you whip them. Keep doing it repetitively until they follow your commands. Yuck. There's nothing Biblical in that interpretation at all. The word "train" is translated differently depending on which translation of the Bible you read anyway. But regardless of that, who ever said "train" meant repetitive whipping??? This is totally bent!!!

To train up a child is not simply a process of physical punishment to get them to do what you want. BF Skinner could do that with mice and pigeons, for goodness' sake. To train up a child is to teach and guide them, and yes, even to discipline them (though we choose non-violent forms of discipline such as time-outs or removal of privileges or even just talking about a behavior, etc---whatever is most appropriate for the behavior, child, age, situation, etc). To train a child is to instill them with values, assist them in learning problem-solving skills, help them acquire life skills, etc, etc. I always read this Bible verse and reflected on what an important role motherhood was. To hear them reduce "training up a child" to a process of just whipping naughty kids makes me sick and sad. I take my role as mother, training up my children, very seriously as my life's work. My goal is not to have young children who obey my every command unquestioningly (hey, that would sure make my life easy at the moment, but it doesn't produce the kind of adult I want my kids to become). My goal is that when my kids are adults, they will be mature, responsible, loving, honest, hard-working, self-controlled, happy, peaceful people.

About the pastor's wife who said she agreed with some of what the Pearls say, here is my take on that. I suspect she reads through some of his examples of "parenting failures" and admits that he has a point. There are some examples he gives, such as the boys fighting over a truck, that contain observations I agree with. I don't agree with his solutions to the problems, but he has described some parenting situations where I agree that the parents' approach to the children was ineffective or inappropriate. However, I disagree with his proposed alternative method of handling the situation (whipping kids). Perhaps this is where the pastor's wife identifies with the Pearls? If that is the case, I would approach the discussion by examining the problem behaviors and then offering different, healthier solutions. Just b/c what some parent is doing is ineffective doesn't mean that the solution is hitting. Perhaps the solution could be talking things out, or removing children from a situation? I would approach the discussion with the pastor's wife (or anyone who is supportive of this book or considering this book) by looking at the situations and the arguments and determining if whipping is really the best way to "train up" the child or if there might be other alternative and better means. Pearl captures people's interest by putting forth examples that many would agree are undesirable and then offering HIS solution. To counter him, we need to offer DIFFERENT (peaceful, loving, age and development-appropriate) solutions.

One big message that gets missed with his "switch 'em when they misbehave" approach is the importance of what I refer to as "anticipatory guidance"? We don't just teach kids by punishing them when they do what we don't want. We teach them by *preparing* them with lessons on what is right *before* they get into situations and by anticipating problem situations and guiding our kids away from them, intervening early, removing them from potentially troublesome situations, etc. It's our duty as the adult to be observant and prepared and attentive. Ever notice how your kids always behave better when you are being attentive and have responded to their basic needs and set a good example yourself?  Training isn't just punishing as you go. Think of an athlete in training. They don't win races b/c someone is whipping them from behind while they run. (Sure, I would prolly run a lot faster if someone was threatening me in this way, but I don't think it would make me a great runner.) The athlete becomes a great runner by getting in shape through practice and conditioning so they're prepared to run the race when it comes.

One of the most important (imho) things I do as a mother to train up my children is to spend time teaching them our values and preparing them to deal with conflicts and decision-making. By talking about sharing, telling the truth, non-violence, role-modeling, etc, outside of the actual situations, you teach and practice and prepare kids to deal with those situations when they arise. And when the situations come up (like a fight when kids don't want to share, etc) we can sit down and say, "remember when we talked about sharing and ways to share so everyone is happy?" This is the sort of thing I think of when I think of "training up my children". We try to spend time daily in learning values and behavior and practical life-skills as well as book-learning. Ykwim? Recently, I have been studying and discussing with my children about the "fruits of the spirit" (for those not familiar with the verse from the Bible, the "fruits of the spirit are: love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, kindness, and self control). We take one concept at a time and talk about what it means, how it applies to our lives, what situations it might be needed in, what are examples of people behaving in the desired way or the undesired way, rewards of behaving the desired way and consequences of not conducting oneself that way. If the kids become familiar with these ideals and internalize them, then it is my hope that they will continue to express these "fruits of the spirit" throughout their lives.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I just have so much to say about this. I'm offended on so many levels by this book and I'm horrified that people might think this is a model of Christian parenting or that the idea of "training up a child" might come to be synonymous with whipping children!


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## DQMama

_One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree._

I can't find the site now but if you read on after this excerpt it says after a while they didn't have to switch her. They just laid the switch by the stairs and she looked back, saw it, and stopped climbing. Wow, they sure taught her something, didn't they? You know what would have worked even faster than a switch? A baby gate.







:

Seriously though, how very, very, very sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiahnsmum*
This makes me so sad, I am a christian and my belief is that to be a christian is to be like christ, I cant find anywhere in the bible where jesus says to hit children, only verses which indicate that jesus treasured children. These people have a lot to answer for.

Yes, I am a Christian as well and come from a Christian family where I was not spanked. My mother always said Jesus would not condone hitting a child and this is my belief as well.

Diane, thank you so much for clearing up the interpretation of "spare the rod." I always thought this meant spank as well even though I would not spank personally. Now I am more educated and will share this knowledge with others who claim they are supposed to spank.


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## JenniferH

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gottaknit*
The entire "training" technique revolves around pain and fear. Why would someone want to raise their child to grow up to be a mindless follower of anyone who speaks harshly to them or threatens them physically?

Yeah, I agree with you, but there are plenty of religious fanatics who want JUST that type of person around. They don't question, they just do as they are told. Makes for a better sheep if they already have that mindset.


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## moonfirefaery

I'm not totally anti-spanking. I'm not going to get into it, because I doubt my view would be welcome.

However... when I read the excerpt about beating the 4 month old baby's legs with a switch, I just gasped in shocked and wanted to cry. They even acknowledge a baby that age cannot be disciplined, yet admit they did it anyway...for what? their twisted, sadistic pleasure? That anyone could use this book as a way to discipline their children just disgusts me. My son at 4 month old could barely tell the difference between night and day, mom and dad, couch and floor! If he had crawled that early, I'd have been thrilled that he developed so fast and would have encouraged him to develope that trait--but with my supervision. If you don't want a baby to climb upstairs, rather than beating him and causing him pain he isn't going to learn from...INSTALL A BABYGATE! Or maybe just try this little thing called parental supervision. That man should be in jail for child abuse that he committed by his own admission!

And don't even get me started on child molesters repenting. The percentage of molesters that repent and stick to it is so miniscule that the chance of it happening is almost nonexistant. I would never allow a man back into my arms that had tortured my children in that manner.

A switch like that would make a grown man cry in agony. To use it on a helpless, innocent child that knows no better and can't learn any better just angers me to the point that I want to sob...or perhaps take the switch to the author's bare legs.


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## moonfirefaery

After reading this whole thread I would say that the Pearls remind me a lot of the Phelps, all of their philosophies. They beat their children because they think the Bible says so, yet ignore the parts about marriage. The Phelps are the same, yet they ignore the parts about judgement. Fred Phelps believes in controlling and beating his wife and kids, and they all agree just like in Pearl's case. How can we commend Pearl when he is so comparable to a man we detest, a man because of whom protesting outside of military funerals is now illegal? I am just appalled by this.

Calling a baby's crying selfish is just stupid. OF course they are selfish! They don't know any better! They are just babies! They won't learn to recognize that other people have needs or that their needs aren't that immediate for YEARS, no matter how much you beat them. It's not about what's convenient for the parent, but what's best for the child! I'm just wanting to cry about all these tales about hitting baby's that aren't even old enough yet to speak. I'm almost in tears over this. I just cannot believe I'm hearing this, that people are sick enough to think beating little babies is okay, to think of those poor little babies beating beaten and not understanding why their parents who they depend on are causing them pain.

Oh my god, they burnt them with the stove?! That is abuse!!! And pushed her into a pond! Washing your child in cold weather outside? I've never heard such things! That is not obedience, that is child endangerment! I'm in absolute shock! Why aren't these people in ail? I have smacked my child's wrist with my own hand in rare situations, something which doesn't even bring a tear to his eye, but I would never, ever take a switch to him or do any of those things to him. They may not be evil, but they are certainly quite ignorant and definitely not equipped to be a loving provider of guidance to a toddler.


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## Aridel

I had read _To Train Up a Child_ and was horrified, and I just saw the newest newsletter up on the Pearls' website.







: It includes an article "Too Young to Spank?" that describes switching a six month old for throwing his food on the floor. Even better you're supposed to switch the kid _before_ he even does antyhing, just when you think they will.

The worst part is that I have known a family that used this method. The mother was a relative of mine, and not the kind of person I would guess would do this. They nearly lost thier kids over it. Things are going better for them now, but I always keep an eye out for news on the Pearls.


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## moonfirefaery

GOOD! If everyone like this nearly lost their kids or did lose them for a while, maybe they would come to appreciate that children are gifts of god that should be treasured--not animals that need to be beaten into submission! It is appalling to hear that the Pearls were visitted by child services, who believed everything they were doing was fine...and then they went on to say they'd be happy to advise child services to help other foster parents use their methods! I read a review where a foster family was using the method and said the child services knew they were doing it and were OK with it! WTF?!


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## Aridel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
GOOD! If everyone like this nearly lost their kids or did lose them for a while, maybe they would come to appreciate that children are gifts of god that should be treasured--not animals that need to be beaten into submission! It is appalling to hear that the Pearls were visitted by child services, who believed everything they were doing was fine...and then they went on to say they'd be happy to advise child services to help other foster parents use their methods! I read a review where a foster family was using the method and said the child services knew they were doing it and were OK with it! WTF?!

Yeah, it was the best thing for that family, being _forced_ to find other ways to raise their kids. It's horrifying that a foster family was OKed to use it!







:

OK, I'm getting upset again, and ready to do something about this. If only I knew what...


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## kathirynne

The following are quotes from the Pearls' book. (I read part of it online; all that I could stomach, anyway. uke)

_"These truths are not new, deep insights from the professional world of research, rather, the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules..."_ (But children and mules are miles apart. As a parent, I want to work myself out of a job. I want my children to learn _self_ control. Who's going to "control" my children when they are adults?)

_"A sergeant can call his men to attention and then, without explanation, ignore them, and they will continue to stand frozen in that position until they fall out unconscious."_ (Okay, but I'm running a home, not a military base. And what about all the issues people have when they are discharged from the military? *And*, I'm a pacifist!







)

_"Training is the conditioning of the child's mind...for future, instant, unquestioning obedience."_ (Future, instant, unquestioning obedience to whom? Like Hitler had with the Nazis, you mean?







)

I feel so sad for their poor kids, and for the kids whose parents buy their book.


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## Bad Mama Jama

How disgusting! This is so sick and sad!!!


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## Overproducktion

The Pearls at "no great joy . org" are sending free copies of the book out to every one that subs to TEACH magazine!







I know because I got a copy.







: I used to sub to TEACH before I knew what they believed in. (i was at the time, getting neat homeschool ideas...I had NO idea they supported baby beating ) I was so beyond angry when I opened the package and saw that evil book.























ETA: This was just last week. I emailed them and told them I know longer sub to TEACH magazines and told them where they can stick their freebies.

The book will make good fire starter


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## Overproducktion

which reminds me, although I've written reviews on the book, I've never actually read it. So, I flipped through some of the pages. How to discipline a 6 month old for throwing food?







: Please.







:


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## moonfirefaery

All it does is encourage parents to unnecessarily and pointlessly abuse their children, who will not understand the discipline regardless of how many spankings they get. The Babywise books by Ezzo are almost as bad as this one; they have a lot of ideas that are just as harmful, like feeding an infant every 3 hours, preaching that infants cry to manipulate (not to let us know something is wrong or that they need something). If the Babywise books cause children to exhibit signs of depression (isn't it sad when a six month old suffers from depression?) then I can't imagine that these practices will do to children. The only result of books like this is a broken child with a heavy heart and an overwhelming sense of loneliness and worthlessness and a parent who suffers from similar feelings, along with confusion and a sense of failure that, though they are doing everything right, their six month old continues to throw food. Maybe it's because children do not learn morals, consequences, right from wrong, how to obey, etc adequately until they are several years old? My son cannot even talk yet; I can't imagine expecting him to know not to throw food when he can't even say 'mama.' There have been posts on the Ezzo's boards where a mother describes lettering her child cry so long that she lost her voice and had blood in her throat, a father describes leaving his child alone (as the Ezzo's recommend) for four hours because his 13-month-old refused to sign that she was finished with dinner, and where a mother beat her unruly toddler so much in a two-week period that welts developed. Of course those posts were removed. IMAGINE what the boards would say if the Pearls had a messaging system on their site. If these are the results of Babywise, which is a lot less brutal than the Pearls methods, just imagine the terror THESE children are put through. It makes me so very sad. I just want to cry. These books advocating child abuse, especially of infants, need to be burned, boycotted, and banned. Whipping a five-month-old's legs to 'teach' her not to climb upstairs. How absurd.


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## Aridel

I know posters here have made an effort to post negative reviews of _To Train Up A Child_ on Amazon. Is anyone a member at Epinions? Both TTUAC and _No Greater Joy_ are listed there, and NGJ has one negative and two positive reviews. (http://www.epinions.com/No_Greater_J...splay_~reviews)

Epinions requires registration, and posts express reviews which are fast, about a paragraph long, or full reviews covering as much as you want to say about the book. If you go and post over there be careful to stay on topic - this is probably best for people who have followed the link to read the TTUAC book, or read what's available of _No Greater Joy_ on the website. The one negative review of NGJ (the same person reviewed TTUAC but doesn't seem to still be active) is pretty complete and well done. If you join the site and rate the reviews, just be sure to ignore whether you agree with them, and rate on informativeness/helpfullness. I don't know how many people see that site, but it's worth educating as many people as possible about this.

Help get the word out about the Pearls!


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## jillmamma

Just in the third paragraph, this is scary!

Quote:

Another mother walks in with her little ones and sits down to talk. She says to them, "Go out in the sun-room to play and don't bother Mama unless you need something." For the next two hours we are not even aware the children are present--except when a little one comes in holding herself saying, "Pee-pee, Mama." They play together well, resolve their own conflicts and don't expect attention when one turns the rocking horse over and gets a knot on her head. They don't come in and out--they have been told not to.
If my child had a knot on his/her head I would certainly want that child to come to me and have it checked out!


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## moonfirefaery

Obviously they haven't heard of a concussion.







:


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## josybear

i try to be fair-minded so i read most of the way through the book and a bunch of stuff online, looking for anything that wasn't evil and abusive. here is is:

they advocate spending lots of time with your kids.

other than that...

here's some great quotes that made me, a pacifist, want to kill.

on appropriate dress for wives & daughters:
Why not dress beautifully rather than like a slut? You should get out of your ignorance before your dinner guest looks at you or your daughter then visits the bathroom. Well, that's probably already happened.

on a wife's role:
A wise woman gauges her husband's needs. She seeks to fulfill his desires before even he is aware of them. She supplies his every desire.

on ppd and plain old being overwhelmed (imo):
Recently, a young couple with five children came to us for advice. The wife had become unresponsive to her husband and irritable with their three children under five. "I sometimes feel like I am going crazy. I don't want to have any more children," she blurted out.

on gender-assigned roles:
Dear Mike and Debi,
How can a wife "encourage" her husband to participate with family/children without being a nag? Things like having the husband help tuck the kids in at night without having to ask him over and over, or to take an interest in homeschooling?
My 3 sisters-in-law have the same problem, and my mother-in-law says she was always frustrated with her husband when the kids were young. Don't get me wrong, I love my husband, and I know he is committed to our marriage and loves the kids and the Lord very much. It is just frustrating how fast he loses interest in what is happening or needs to be done in the house and is ready to take a nap or do something fun instead of what seems needful.

Debi Answers
You have two important clues. First, your husband is a good man and loves the Lord, and second, all the men of the family had the same "faults". When you live a little longer, you will discover that ALL men share many of the same "faults", and ALL women spend their time and emotional energy trying to correct those faults and are frustrated when he is man enough to stand firm against it. A splinter in a man's eye is hard to get out when a beam is in your own eye. Love, joy, and peace will never come until you lay down your expectation for your husband and learn to cheerfully appreciate him as he is. God's word is very clear in our position as women in that we are to honor, obey, reverence, and love our husbands. Being critical of him is the opposite of this.
As mothers we are to be the keeper of the home and the children. 1 Peter tells us that even lost men are won by the wife's chaste conversation. Chaste conversation would include honoring, obeying, and reverencing, but does not include being disappointed, critical, or manipulative. You need to do a personal study of Proverbs 31, Esther, Ruth, and Sarah. The Word of God is effectual. It will work into you the amazing ability to see things from your husband's point of view, which will cause you to be happy, fun-loving, and joyful. This will change your expectations of him, and it will cause him to have an interest in what pleases you. It's called "the circle of love." You please him, and he likes it - then he pleases you, and you love him - then you honor him, and he grows - then&#8230;

Michael Answers
Children may suffer a lack in their education and personality when they don't have more involvement from their father, but they will not be rebellious, disrespectful of authority, and dishonoring of their mother unless mother is bothered by her husband's lack of participation. Given the father's lack of interest, the kids may have an incomplete education, but don't let your attitude leave them with an incomplete soul


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## moonfirefaery

It is a well-known fact that children benefit greatly from having fathers that are involved in their lives. What good is a father who is never around? What a wife does for her husband, so should he do for her. Without criticism there can be no growth. Without acknowledging a mistake there can be no lesson. These people are nuts.


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## Monda

I decided to retract this reply. Sorry


----------



## Cougarmilk

This is so frightening. How would it feel to be these children.

Monda, I an only imagine what you deleted, I would bet it is similar to what I'm thinking right now.


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## Manonash

A reply a PP made got me thinking (uhoh) --

I agree that saying inflammatory things about anything religious may just solidify some people's ideas that this is the right way since in their eyes attacks on it can mean resistance from Satan which means it's the right way. (If that made any sense). Would maybe a good way to fight this book be to put up a website that refutes this book biblically and then gives alternatives of books written by other Christians? So that way, anyone looking on the web for info on "Godly parenting" would find it. I know some about certain specific biblical things, but on the parenting angle, I know little. Plus, I'm quite computer illiterate. But was just thinking about this the other day and how to fight the Pearls on this. Ezzo's book has lost popularity because many hospitals now are warning not to use it, plus, I believe there is a website out there designed to stear people way from using it (I've seen it referenced on another message board). I think this one's it.

I am just flabbergasted that there is a book out there like this!!! I agree with others that I don't believe in censureship (not sure if I spelled that right), but this book should be illegal! Because in my mind it is an instruction manual on how to abuse your kids-- which is illegal. I went to Amazon and voted!!!


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## moonfirefaery

A letter to Amazon.com...

"I am apalled that you are selling the book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael Pearl. This book advocates whipping little babies as young as 4 months and in great detail teaches parents how to abuse and torture their children into submission. Advocating this should be illegal. Some methods that they suggest are hosing a child down outside in mid-winter for having a bathroom accident, burning a child with a stove, switching a 4-month old rather than installing a babygate to keep her off the stairs, pushing a child into a pond, switching a baby for crying to alert a parent to a need, allowing a child to cry for hours on end--all of these can be physically harmful as well as emotionally. The Pearls also believe in spousal abuse and are against abused women speaking out. Please, I am begging you, remove this book from your inventory so that no parents will be misled to employ tactics such as nearly drowning their children to keep them well-behaved. I am boycotting Amazon.com until this book is removed, and I am encouraging others to do the same. These people should be in jail, not having their torture manual sold on the internet. Please, please do something about this. I beseech you. All this will lead to is abused children with an inability to trust even their own parents and frazzled mothers and fathers who wonder why their infant, depsite being switched, is still throwing food. Sell books that educate, not misinform. Please."

And the anti-Ezzo website posted by a user on the last page... reading those stories from parents that formerly used Ezzo's techniques almost had me in tears.


----------



## moonfirefaery

Quote:

Thank you for writing to Amazon.com with your concerns about "To
Train Up a Child."

As a retailer, our goal is to provide customers with the broadest
selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any item they
might be seeking. That selection includes some items which many
people may find objectionable. Therefore, the items offered on our
web site represent a wide spectrum of opinions on a variety of
topics.

Amazon.com believes it is censorship not to sell certain titles
because we believe their message is objectionable. Therefore, we
will continue to make controversial works available in the United
States and everywhere else, except where they are prohibited by law.

We also allow readers, authors, and publishers to express their
views freely about these titles and other products we offer on our
web site. However, Amazon.com does not endorse any opinions
expressed by individual authors, musical artists, or filmmakers.
I'm tempted to write asking them if I wrote a book denying the holocaust, advocating racism, or encouraging people to become terrorists and plant bombs, if those censorship rules would still apply. There's a difference between censorship and providing bad information. Censorship is when you won't publish a book because your company is more conservative, but the book is written by a liberal--not when you remove something from the shelves because it's dangerous and contains tons of bad information that could lead to the death of a child and imprisonment of the parents.


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## Aridel

Amazon also sells a lot of other horrible parenting books, like this one called Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tedd Tripp and books by Roy Lessin
 They don't care about being dangerous or harmful, just making money.







: The books I mentioned both involve using physical punishments against very young children, and are very very bad for kids. Read a few of the reviews - it'll make you sick. Just make sure to click to see the lowest ratings first - people have gone in and written about how wonderful they are.







:

I think as far as Amazon, or any other vendor, the only thing to do as far as the Pearls' books being sold is to rate the book low, try to get the word out about what they advocate and why it's wrong, what better ways of raising kids are (almost any parenting style is better!) and keeping track of if they are coming to an event locally, to generate negative publicity. Any other suggestions would be great!


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## Greenie

I posted a couple of reviews and rated all of them.


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## moonfirefaery

Just one more reason I shop at Barnes & Noble.


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## PeacefulSeams

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage*
i don't know if any of y'all have ever been spanked or "switched", but a "light spat" with a thin, flexible rod hurts MORE than the same amount of force applied by an open hand or something else with more surface area.

it stings. badly.


I agree. What made it even worse for me was that I had to go and pick out the switch. If it wasn't up to "standard" then I was switched even harder. Thank goodness my mom had enough sense to get rid of that guy.


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## monkeys4mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Manonash*
A reply a PP made got me thinking (uhoh) --

I agree that saying inflammatory things about anything religious may just solidify some people's ideas that this is the right way ...............snip...............Would maybe a good way to fight this book be to put up a website that refutes this book biblically and then gives alternatives of books written by other Christians? So that way, anyone looking on the web for info on "Godly parenting" would find it.

I totally agree with this. I posted awhile back in this thread, but haven't been following it much lately. I'd like to remind everyone that Dr. William Sears is a Christian and has written a book on Christian parenting. If you page back through this discussion, I had the title in a previous post. I suggest that when people post at Amazon they might want to redirect Christian parents to Dr Sears' book. That way it encourages Christian parents to potentially take another look at a different Christian perspective. And Sears is a preeminent pediatrician with years and years of experience and is very well-respected.

One of the biggest problems with the Ezzos and the Pearls (aside from pushing violence) is that they completely fail to recognize the developmental capabilities of infants and children at different stages. Their advocacy of whipping 4 month old babies is not just inhumane b/c it physically hurts babies, but it's exceptionally cruel b/c the babies themselves are incapable of understanding or of committing the "manipulative" motives that those people seem to attribute to them. With Sears, the reader will come to understand the development of babies. They will learn that babies so young are simply communicating and interacting with the world in the only ways they are able to do and that they'll grow and develop new ways to communicate, etc, as they develop. Whipping an infant for crying is not just cruel but pointless and stupid when one considers that. So that's a big reason to recommend Sears. B/c he's both a Christian and a Doctor, I think that would really help to counter the ignorance on which the Pearls techniques are founded.


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## afishwithabike

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Hi dear activists,

On the Amazon.com website, the book "To Train Up a Child" is getting all these glowing 5-star reviews lately. The reviewers are extolling the virtues of this book that recommends whipping infants and toddlers into complete submission. They're saying if you don't whip your babies, you'll end up with disrespectful, stupid kids who throw tantrums all the time. Have a look: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...nDate&n=283155

If you're an Amazon.com customer, please write a review of this ghastly book about "training" babies, here are some excerpts and a link for writing a review: http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

Thank you, please speak up against these child abusers.


Here are some threads that already exist here at MDC this topic.....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=468270

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=432469

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=427630

I am glad you have brought it up again because it HAS been a little while but we have been working to keep the sale of their book to a minimum by writing horrible reviews on the subject.


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## Ivan's Mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Ugh, not this book again.

This is written by the same guy that said on his website to take your husband back into the home if he molests your children but "repents."


WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! uke uke uke uke uke uke uke uke uke

I hate religion and I hate these people. I hope someone







them. They are the


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## Monda

Wow, talk about free speech.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ivan's Mom*
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! uke uke uke uke uke uke uke uke uke

I hate religion and I hate these people. I hope someone







them. They are the


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## Aridel

See, I don't see these people as Christians. Religious? Depends how you define it, I'm sure they think they are. But it's not as though they are living out the examples of Christ or his teachings.

Religion has been used in horrible ways throughout history, but that does not make it evil.

Back on topic, I noticed that under "Editorial Reviews" for TTUAC on Amazon, there are quotes from NGJ about how great the books are. Does anyone know how to get a real group to review the book? I mean, I can see why they haven't, since it's not sold at mainstream stores, is self published and is sold in small numbers, but I think it would help if there was an official type of review. I have no idea how to get someone to do that, but I wonder if the review of an 'expert' might help more than the regular user reviews.


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I'm tempted to write asking them if I wrote a book denying the holocaust, advocating racism, or encouraging people to become terrorists and plant bombs, if those censorship rules would still apply. There's a difference between censorship and providing bad information. Censorship is when you won't publish a book because your company is more conservative, but the book is written by a liberal--not when you remove something from the shelves because it's dangerous and contains tons of bad information that could lead to the death of a child and imprisonment of the parents.

I think this book and these people are horrifying, but I don't think amazon should stop selling the book. I can understand why you'd feel that way, but FWIW, I don't think they should not sell books about racism or terrorism or any other controversial subject either. You can't have a free society if you only allow the ideas you agree with to be read/learned about. You bet I will stand up for the rights of the KKK and nazis to exist... and then walk out and protest against them and make sure my OWN voice is heard. That's what people are doing with the reviews, and I think it is great!

Truthfully I can't imagine they are raking in piles of dough over this book. Also, BN.com is not selling the book directly, but they are linking to sellers of used books to provide copies of all the Pearl books... so they do make it *available* whether or not they choose to stock it.

I think honestly, the majority of people who are sane, clear-thinking individuals are going to see through this kind of thing in an instant. The type of person who would enjoy and support this probably would beat their kids with or without its affirmation. It's beyond my comprehension that someone would really grab a switch and start beating their four month old baby when they never hit their baby before, just because a book said to. Maybe I'm too optimistic!







: Seriously, who can possibly justify taking advice from someone who recommends forgiving their child molesting husband? That is just insane! I wonder if many of the people who are given this book without being extreme fundamental Christians follow it because they've only read parts of it and don't realize its larger context? And where in the Bible does it say that molesting children is forgiveable?!?!







:

Anyways without the debates of these books I've seen here on MDC I never would've known about them... and I am glad that I do know about them so that if someone mentions them to me or hands me one, I know how to respond. Not to mention my education in the levels of depravity which our society still, in some wierd ways, accepts as normal.







:


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## monkeys4mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ivan's Mom*
I hate religion and I hate these people. I hope someone







them. They are the









Ivan's Mom, Ita about this book and how awful the teachings are. But please don't generalize to all religion and religious people. The Jesus I know taught people to love one another. And He welcomed little children and women, and the sick, poor, outcast, etc. He was, in fact, quite a radical historical figure; teaching peace and compassion and humility and forgiveness and walking among the "least" members of society. People do all sorts of hideous things while calling themselves "Christian" (or "Muslim" or whatever) but they don't represent the vast majority of the members of that faith. If you wanna hate the Pearls and their nasty book, be my guest. But I cannot fathom hating religion in general. For every evil done in the name of religion, we can find a good as well. And the same could be said of entirely non-religious people; they represent an array of both good and bad. Oh, the humanity...


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## momz3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
Ivan's Mom, Ita about this book and how awful the teachings are. But please don't generalize to all religion and religious people. The Jesus I know taught people to love one another. And He welcomed little children and women, and the sick, poor, outcast, etc. He was, in fact, quite a radical historical figure; teaching peace and compassion and humility and forgiveness and walking among the "least" members of society. People do all sorts of hideous things while calling themselves "Christian" (or "Muslim" or whatever) but they don't represent the vast majority of the members of that faith. If you wanna hate the Pearls and their nasty book, be my guest. But I cannot fathom hating religion in general. For every evil done in the name of religion, we can find a good as well. And the same could be said of entirely non-religious people; they represent an array of both good and bad. Oh, the humanity...

As a Christian, I completely agree. Good post!


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## moonfirefaery

I'm opposed to censoring opinion. However, blatant misinformation and advocation of child abuse is different. There is a difference between publishing a book of off-the-wall opinions and publishing a child abuse manual or a guide of lies.


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## mamabadger

I'm sure this story's been posted somewhere on MDC, but I haven't come across it.

Pearl's system has been implicated in at least one child's death, earlier this year:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

Maybe this could be mentioned in an Amazon review.


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## Gem'sMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I'm sure this story's been posted somewhere on MDC, but I haven't come across it.

Pearl's system has been implicated in at least one child's death, earlier this year:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

Maybe this could be mentioned in an Amazon review.

I live a couple counties away from where this happened, but in what seems like a completely different world. I had heard about this case on the local news, and it made me so incredibly sad to think about how that sweet little boy died. I had no idea that the mother was following the Pearls advice for discipline. If thats not enough to get Amazon to stop selling this garbage, then I don't think that there is any hope for them. I don't know how much I can say on here as there seem to be quite a few rules, so I guess I just have two words...blood money.


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## hypnohobbit

:

This is so sad. These people should be in jail and beaten into submission themselves.

My younger half brother was beaten like this by his mother when he was an infant except she used her bare hand. I used to cry and beg her to stop. He was only 10 months old and he pulled himself up to the coffee table and accidently spilled a cup of water, she pulled down his diaper and whacked him over 10 times on his bare baby bottom. I was horrified.







And she used to call child protective services on my mother to try to gain custody of us.







:

I am so glad my mama loved me! My mother brought home a paddle one night and when I asked what it was for she said it was for spanking us...we all laughed about it because we all knew she would never do that!









How the hell did this book get published? What can we do to stop it? Child abuse is child abuse. WTF??? These schmucks condone letting a repenting child molester back in the house?uke I wonder how many children have suffered under the 'loving' hands of Mr. Pearl.







This book should be entitled how to get away with child abuse, spousal abuse and child molestation.

And how can they claim all of this in the name of christianity? I read the reviews on amazon and all of the supporters of this book are praising it for its biblical stance, WTH? Did I miss something? I don't remember Jesus beating children? As a matter of fact, children are the MOST REVERED in the Bible...this is the most anti-christian as far as I was taught! I was always taught that the Bible was figurative and not everything in the Bible has a literal translation!


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## hypnohobbit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
I'm sure this story's been posted somewhere on MDC, but I haven't come across it.

Pearl's system has been implicated in at least one child's death, earlier this year:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

Maybe this could be mentioned in an Amazon review.

The mother that did this was mentioned in the reviews...and the advocates of ttuac have 'brushed' over this poor child's death and suffering.








Sean Paddock, martyr of the rod


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I'm opposed to censoring opinion. However, blatant misinformation and advocation of child abuse is different. There is a difference between publishing a book of off-the-wall opinions and publishing a child abuse manual or a guide of lies.

Moonfirefaery, that's an interesting idea... but then, who decides? Who decides what is blatant misinformation and what is valid to be published? Would you really feel comfortable, say, trusting an organization like the MPAA (Motion Picture Association of America) deciding for all of America what gets published and what doesn't?

I agree with you that this book is child abuse. Clearly many people don't. I will admit that it seems odd that something like CHILD ABUSE could ever be a debateable point, but the truth is that it IS. Many people would think that nursing a four year old child is abusive. I don't agree, but my point is only that some aspects of parenting aren't black and white.

I don't think that a person who is gently-natured to start with is going to read this, believe it, and then start beating the crap out of their kids. I think the people who are going to do that probably were already hitting their kids, and don't believe that spanking is abuse.

I believe that continuing to inform people that spanking is abusive and harmful will do more than trying to censor a bookstore's inventory. Spanking is illegal in some countries, maybe we should be trying to make that happen here.

Quote:

Paddock and other moms in her rural Baptist church chatted about the Pearls' strategies for rearing obedient children, Reece said.

"I think she was trying to do the right thing by her children," he said.
From that article... that is so sad. And absolutely pathetic that anyone could describe allowing their child to smother while wrapped tightly in a blanket and immobilized as "doing the right thing" by her kids. To me this shows a real lack of sanity and basic reasoning ability... not to mention a lack of compassion! That poor little boy














:


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## CallMeMommy

Moonfirefaery, that's crap - they not long ago agreed to stop selling kiddie porn being badly pawned off as a youth gymnastics video.


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## Gem'sMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy*
Moonfirefaery, that's crap

Could you be more specific about what "that" is? Moonfirefaery has said a lot here. You can always quote to clarify what "crap" you are referring to.


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## CallMeMommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gem'sMama*
Could you be more specific about what "that" is? Moonfirefaery has said a lot here. You can always quote to clarify what "crap" you are referring to.

Oh, sorry, I meant the response from Amazon where they said pulling certain books would be censorship and they won't do it (can't quote a quote, and I guess I didn't realize that particular post was that far back







: )


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## Gem'sMama

Thanks for clarifying







. I was just a little confused. Makes sense now.


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy*
Moonfirefaery, that's crap - they not long ago agreed to stop selling kiddie porn being badly pawned off as a youth gymnastics video.

Child porn is illegal in the US... spanking children is not. But wouldn't it be a good thing to lobby for?

Then again I am not sure that books are not published all the time about illegal things.. certainly there are books about how to grow and care for marijauna and other drugs, and that is illegal too. Hmmm... The whole censorship thing is something I'd love to have a really long debate about sometime, as I'm a First Amendment freak









But my brain is going places with it that are not relevant to this particular discussion, except to say that I still don't think Amazon should stop carrying the book. Better to educate people about the horrible misinformation and hope that those of us who are rational, compassionate human beings are not able to be swayed by something like that.

I do love seeing the anti-spanking contingent over there posting reviews, though!

I just found an in-depth article on Salon about the Pearls...
http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature...25/the_pearls/
(If you are not a Salon member, they might require you to watch a minute long ad before giving you access to the site.)

A quote from the article...
"One summer day it became clear to her that the Pearls' advice and her own rages were a toxic combination: Judge had to lock Noah in a separate room for fear she would "beat him senseless," she says. "I just wanted to know when that damn 'peace' the Pearls talk about was going to come."


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## illinoismommy

The Pearls







:


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## moonfirefaery

I think the obvious answer to the "Should the MPAA decide?" is no. However, there are consumer laws that prohibit false advertising, which clearly apply to the marketting of this book. We have an organization that dictates what can be said on the radio. Why should Howard Stern be banished to satellite radio for saying 'anal' while Amazon.com is peddling a child torture manual?

Freedom of speech stops when the speech does harm. Profanity, slander, yelling 'fire' in a crowded room, and pornography are all restricted by the law despite the first amendment. When our Constitution was written I don't think our founding fathers intended the first amendment to apply to abuse and doing harm to otheres, especially children, but to protect people's rights to have an express opinions, such as about religion and politics--not to protect a 'right' to lie about what is best for children and instruct parents to beat infants, something that would abhor even slave owners I imagine.

Who can decide what information is false? Research, doctors, child experts. We have numerous organizations that do decide what must or cannot be printed. We have protected children from sexual abuse despite free speech. Why shouldn't we protect them from other abuses? I certainly wouldn't be the one to decide what constitutes as abuse, but I think there are individuals quite qualified and capable. The best way of making a decision is gather research from many sources and then drawing a conclusion, and I imagine there is an organization already that could do that. If not, one could be created. Who decides? If not common sense, then experience, research, and those who actually have some knowledge about the effects of different parenting 'techniques' on children could.

Our country needs to take a stronger stance on protecting children and preventing abuse. We will take away children that are abused and put them into foster care, then imprison the parents... but we let persons who pursuade and encourage abuse such as this go free and continue peddling their toxic 'ideas.' If we really want to protect children we need to protect parents from bad information and harmful direction from people that are quite clearly unfit to give any parenting advice at all. A child has died because of this book, and his mother is now probably being persecuted...but the persons who really caused the death, by putting these tactics into these woman's head and passing them off as effective and even 'good' methods, are still free to continue beating their own children and foster kids and encouraging other well-intentioned parents to do the same. Ridiculous.

Spanking is not illegal, but child abuse is...and beating a 4 month old's legs with a stick or hitting a child with a pipe is clearly child abuse, and advocating either of those things should be just as illegal. It is one thing to say that you do or did something, or even that you agree with doing something or aren't totally 100% against it... but writing a manual as to how to do it, encouraging others to do it, and telling them they're probably bad parents if they don't do it, that's messed up. I know people who actually do spank who would still be appalled by this book.

Ps Soliciting crime is illegal in many states. Couldnt a book advocating child abuse make the authors and peddlers guilty of soliciting crime by encouraging parents to be abusive to thier children?


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