# are your clothes fair or unfair?



## LLobsterTV (Aug 11, 2006)

there's an interesting thread going on in this forum regarding slavery and how it still exists in parts of the world. sadly, americans support slavery everyday via sweatshops, unfair trade practices, etc. that's why i'm sharing this link with everyone who has ever wondered about the major corporations that make many of our clothing items, sell us food, construct the cars we drive, etc.

www.sweatshops.org digs into these corporations in search of their practices concerning fair-trade, environmental impact, human slavery, and much more.

i've done some digging, and i'm sad to say that while my shoes are the most comfortable ones i've ever owned, they were likely made my an overworked adult in china.

would anyone like to share your thoughts on this matter, or perhaps dig a little and report on how well (or bad) your favorite brand rates?

p.s. x-posted from tao.


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

oh dear. I buy a lot at Target and they certainly have issues, from environmental to human rights. I feel bad. I always look for things second hand but if I don't find it I head to target.

I wonder if a good rule of thumb is- if an item is of good quality but priced very low, someone is definately being underpaid.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

wow...i never knew...


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## simple living mama (May 4, 2005)

I do all thrift. They may have been made in sweatshops but since it's all second hand, Im not supporting it and I certainly don't wear anything with a Nike label or Gap. My next step is to learn how to sew better.

The one thing I don't buy used is shoes and underwear. It's a chore to find things not made in China and even then you are not sure if they are made in sweat shops.

We live in a crazy stupid world don't we? I can't help being so disgusted by it sometimes.


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## kandkrose (Jan 2, 2006)

we do all thrift too, except for undies, and SOME shoes. i'm going to start sewing undies for us too, so we arent buying undies from a sweatshop either.


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## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

Here's my .02. Take it as you want.

While I DO NOT agree with sweat shops, etc. and I HAVE seen the WAL-MART video and agree a lot with how "horrible" it is...I feel I really don't have much of a choice right now.

I'm a single mama living off of financial aid and student loans. I receive quite a bit of aid. I just can't AFFORD to buy a lot of the things that are made in the USA because, frankly, they are often more expensive, or harder to find.

Also, as far as Wal-Mart goes, we have 2 Super Wal-Marts here. With a two year old who often hates to ride in carts, it is easier to go to one place. Plus, then I'm not taking her in and out of the car. And the prices are cheaper, and the selection is better. I do also frequent our local grocery store chain as well, however. But if I need diapers and cat litter, I'm going to Wal-Mart.

ETA I'm not AGAINST thrift stores or anything of that nature, I just don't go that often. I'm overweight and very picky about my clothes, so I don't ever seem to find that good of a selection for clothes in my size.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

My two cents worth:

I boycott Walmart and Target.

My grandparents even boycotted Sears.

Honestly nothing improves the situation. I used to be able to sew my own clothes, but really do not have time for that and it really does not pay.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I agree with all of the above, and personally do most of our shopping at thrift/consignment, with a little bit of fair trade/organic for special items. BUT, I recognize that I'm priviledged: I can afford to buy organic cotton for those few special items; I can afford the time to comb through thrift stores, many of which keep very short hours, for the few things that are the right sizes and acceptable styles (I won't buy stuff that advertises things that I disapprove of, like Disney crap, nor anything hootchie, for the kids); I don't have to worry about finding work-appropriate attire, since I'm a SAHM (I could rarely find work clothes second hand when I did work; there were fewer consignment shops in the area then, it was mostly Goodwill).

Given that, if your resources require you to make hard choices, I see buying ethical clothing to be low on the priority list. An item of clothing is durable. The cotton may have required a lot of pesticides, and it may have been made by near-slave labor, but food isn't a whole lot better. A t-shirt will last you for years (I have some I bought 20 years ago in high school.) You fully consume many pounds of food a day. So, I would prioritize eating ethical and clean food far above wearing ethical clothing, if I had to choose.

I don't want that to sound like I don't think the ethical clothing cause isn't worth pursuing. I just want to offer a different perspective, as I'm sure there are plenty of people who read these threads and feel guilty because they truly can't see a real way out of buying Wal-Mart for clothing.


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## AutumnMelody (Feb 10, 2006)

We used to wear used clothing almost exclusively. Since becoming sick with MCS this is no longer an option for us, which is really a shame. The fact of the matter is that I just can not get the chemical smells out of used clothing. And I've destroyed a lot of perfectly good clothes in the process of trying.

When we found out that we were expecting our third child we had no safe clothing for him. I ended up spending my whole pregnancy making his clothes for the first year. I bought organic fabrics and yarns in bulk through co-ops at the best price that I could. I got a couple of high quality simple sewing patterns and borrowed books from the library for knitting patterns. I did some experimenting with vegetable dyes to try to get a little variety, but most of his clothes were natural colors and fairly simple and functional. Actually I've had several people tell me all that he's the best dressed baby around! Kind of funny since my primary concerns were comfort and safety.

I still continue to make a lot of his clothes as well as some of the clothes for my other children. We do not have a lot of clothes. When I make things I do some serious sizing up to make things last for a long time. I also keep my eye on co-ops and clearance sections of sites that sell organic or natural children's clothing. Every once in a while I will find something that is a really good deal and I will grab it to supplement their wardrobes, but this is very rare. They also have some things that where hand-me-downs that I did manage to get wear-able and those will continue to be handed down.

My family occasionally buys them clothes from stores with poor practices, but I can't really control their spending practices. When they offered to give us money to buy the kids clothes for Christmas we used it to buy them each one very nice piece from a local WAHM. They each got a pair of wool over-alls lined with organic cotton. They were very pricey (we couldn't have gotten them without the gift), but the kids wear them EVERY SINGLE DAY as snow pants and in warmer weather they are great for just regular over-alls and they will last each of them for years. I make an effort to concentrate on quality over quantity.

I mostly just wear DH's old flannel shirts!









I really doubt that it makes any difference, but I feel better knowing that I am doing the most that I can in my current situation not to contribute to the problem. And that's all any one can do.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aliviasmom* 
Here's my .02. Take it as you want.

While I DO NOT agree with sweat shops, etc. and I HAVE seen the WAL-MART video and agree a lot with how "horrible" it is...I feel I really don't have much of a choice right now.

I'm a single mama living off of financial aid and student loans. I receive quite a bit of aid. I just can't AFFORD to buy a lot of the things that are made in the USA because, frankly, they are often more expensive, or harder to find.

Also, as far as Wal-Mart goes, we have 2 Super Wal-Marts here. With a two year old who often hates to ride in carts, it is easier to go to one place. Plus, then I'm not taking her in and out of the car. And the prices are cheaper, and the selection is better. I do also frequent our local grocery store chain as well, however. But if I need diapers and cat litter, I'm going to Wal-Mart.

ETA I'm not AGAINST thrift stores or anything of that nature, I just don't go that often. I'm overweight and very picky about my clothes, so I don't ever seem to find that good of a selection for clothes in my size.


I certainly wouldn't judge you. I get pissed that Wal-Mart's practices have produced a situation in which you don't have much of a choice except to shop there.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Proudmomoftwins* 
oh dear. I buy a lot at Target and they certainly have issues, from environmental to human rights. I feel bad. I always look for things second hand but if I don't find it I head to target.

I wonder if a good rule of thumb is- if an item is of good quality but priced very low, someone is definately being underpaid.

guilty, i am trying to get away from all the big retailers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaraBoo* 
I certainly wouldn't judge you. I get pissed that Wal-Mart's practices have produced a situation in which you don't have much of a choice except to shop there.

Same here, it makes me sooooo freakin mad!


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm pretty lucky to have two huge thrift stores a few blocks away. I realize many don't have this option, and also the time to spend looking there. So I don't judge others who need to. I spent a year living in another place for an internship and was pretty shocked to learn that the closest thrift shop was an hour drive away! I thought, how the heck do people afford to buy new stuff anyways? Especially with kids always outgrowing stuff?!


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

most of my clothes are bought used. occasionally family members buy me new clothes and i sometimes buy myself something special that is new and also is ethically made. i for the most part hate buying clothes at all i am very short and not thin and it is so hard to find clothes that fit me at some point i will need to start making my own clothes.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

All very interesting, I didn't realize alot of these stores were involved...such as Nike, Sears, Target. I do buy a LOT of clothing at Sears. I need to research this more.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Puma?? That stinks, I have a ton of puma stuff, shoes, clothing, etc.







Learn something new every day.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't buy clothing very often. Most of the clothing I purchase (except undies) is from a thrift store- but my Mom buys a lot of stuff for my kids and I really don't feel it's my place to tell her where to spend her money.

However, if I could research "fair" shoes for the kids, I could pick them out before they're needed and say "Hey Mom, could you order sandalls for the kids from this website and not schlepp to a bunch of stores this year?" I'm sure she'd go for it.

Oh, and while we're at it, where is a "fair" place to buy undies and socks? What about bras? My girls are at an age where bra shopping is part of the "undies for the kids" equation!


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I have bought a couple of clearance items at Target for DD, and socks.

Aside from that, I've bought my own underwear at Blue Canoe (high quality, organic cotton, and lasts a lot longer than cheap stuff), and buy clothes secondhand. Almost all my clothes are secondhand or a few items I've sewn.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

Pretty much unfair and I hate that fact. But almost none of our clothes are new. My dh, ds, and I buy almost all our clothes from the thrift stores. I would love to buy more fair trade clothes when I buy new but I honestly hate to shop so it is way more work to find them that I am willing to give. I buy fair trade when I stumble on them. But I will certainly save this link.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

Okay, I DO like to Internet shop. And I just checked out one of the coop america listings for shoes (Simple Shoes)...way cool...think I have to order.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

We always buy used and most of dc clothes are hand me downs. I really try my hardest to make sure what we purchase (food, household stuff) is fair. Its really important.

We are on a really tight budget but to me not supporting slave labor is far more important then having what most people would deem as "can't live with out". We sacrifice, and sometimes its alot. Alot of times the sacrifice is merely lots of research and extra time. I mean, its saving peoples lives! Why wouldn't I want too. We live in a VERY blessed culture and I feel its our duty to share the love and wealth. I am the rich man. Little ol' me, lives pay check to pay check, gets state health care, lots of times has no choice but to buy thrift even if I wanted (which I don't) to spend extra $. This sacrifice is being a servent to mankind and we owe God or Gods or what ever you believe in, that and we sure as h**l owe those poor slave children that as well. Those babies could be ours. Those women could be us. It is VERY important! I wish more Americans would see it this way. We are such a privileged society. Its outta site outta mind for us. We have to stop living this way. Boycott!


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 

Oh, and while we're at it, where is a "fair" place to buy undies and socks? What about bras? My girls are at an age where bra shopping is part of the "undies for the kids" equation!

American Apparel


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I support fair trade as in fair tarrifs that would allow other countries to sell their cotton, fabric, and clothing at rates that would allow them to pay reasonable wages. I try to buy a lot from Turkey and Eastern Europe where conditions are not awful and I know how much people need those jobs. There is a lot less child labour there than in some other countries, as well.

But it's freaking expensive. So we lobby for fair trade practices that would enable more economic growth and better working conditions, while buying as many made in the US/Eastern Europe/Turkey things as we can afford.

We have to lobby as well. Fair trade in which only the rich can participate is not sustainable.

People here don't have any factories because their government has such bad policies. How would boycotting goods from this country help the people? It would not help at all, because the producers would produce for poorer countries, pay lower wages, and there would just be fewer jobs. The number one request from people we worked with was "A job, any job, in a factory nearby." They wanted about $2/day.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 

People here don't have any factories because their government has such bad policies. How would boycotting goods from this country help the people? It would not help at all, because the producers would produce for poorer countries, pay lower wages, and there would just be fewer jobs. The number one request from people we worked with was "A job, any job, in a factory nearby." They wanted about $2/day.

Im a little confused by your post. Im trying to understand why you think its still ok to support this. Are you saying that its because other countries will if we won't? Are you also saying that they (slave workers) want this?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

hip_mama, what I am saying is that as long as we continue the macro-economic and political policies that foster this kind of thing, that slave-labour jobs are going to be the best opportunity people have.

Yes, I am saying that other countries will buy slave-labour clothes if we don't, but I don't think that's a reason not to boycott. Boycotts are part of the solution and we do need to make sure that we are not benefiting from slave labour.

And yes, the slave workers- if, by "slave", you mean, not indentured but working with very low wages in very poor conditions- I do believe they prefer it to watching relatives die of disease and starve to death. I don't mean captured slaves, of course.

What I'm trying to say is that the issue is not simply- if you don't buy the product, the practices won't stop and those people's lives will improve. The practices won't stop, and their lives might get a lot worse. After all working 16 hours in a factory is certainly not worse than spending 16 hours digging through trash, 14 hours a day in prostitution, or 24 hours begging.

We have to keep in mind what people's real alternatives are and take a complete approach. Boycotts are not enough. (I am not opposing the OP, just trying to add depth to the discussion.)


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

You are right in some of your thoughts.
Money talks in our country. A ton of those factories are our companies that have started here in the US but have moved since its much cheaper. A lot more does need to happen aside from boycott. but a mass boycott is always heard in our country.
As far as the workers involved, your right. They have no choice, thats why its called slave labor. They would rather work for a few cents a day then starve. There is no way to justify this and saying at least they aren't selling themselves is a bad way of looking at this. We are very privileged and this type of thinking is how nothing ever gets done. These people are oppressed and need our help.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 

We have to keep in mind what people's real alternatives are and take a complete approach. Boycotts are not enough. (I am not opposing the OP, just trying to add depth to the discussion.)

You are completely right! We do need to do more but a lot of people don't know there options. I'll be back with some links







.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

_Child labor_
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/ChildLabor.asp

_Here is a link of some great links_
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/TradeLinks.asp


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"They have no choice, thats why its called slave labor."

Well, they do have a choice. They could work for less in rural areas, and some do go back. And they are usually making more than a few cents a day- I think they are able to save a few cents a day.

"There is no way to justify this and saying at least they aren't selling themselves is a bad way of looking at this."

That's not how I saw it until I had to help people who were in an even worse situation that these "slave" labourers. I work with people who are literally forced to work for free. Their "reward" is to pick the trash off the fields afterwards. If this country had a freer economy, that wouldn't happen, because they'd have the opportunity to work for a bit more. I am not saying that that is what we should strive to, but I am saying that we need to realize that sweatshops aren't even the worst of it.

"These people are oppressed and need our help."

Yes, that's right. And what I'm asking is, would a boycott that led to the closing of their places of work help?


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Oppressed people do not have a choice. Again, your stance is from a privileged mind set. We shall have to agree to disagree.
I don't disagree with you at all about doing more than boycott. There is alot to be done.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Hip_Mama, all people have a choice. Oppression comes in a spectrum but choice is absolute.

I have spent years working with some of the poorest people in the world. They choose to stay in their countries, or to risk their lives going abroad. They may choose between staying in the countryside, where life is not so good but at least there's fresh air and family, but no hope to save money for their kids, or go to the cities.

They go to the cities not because they risk death if they stay in the countryside, but because they want to improve their situations (well, in most cases, anyway, and this only applies to the first generation, of course). Sometimes, the whole family actively works to raise the money for a train ticket and a couple of months of rent to get one family member a job in an urban factory. Sometimes, entire villages lobby the European Union to put a factory in their village. This is definitely a choice at the community and individual level.

One thing that is useful to keep in mind is that the factory-working population is in general a population of upwardly-mobile immigrants from the countryside. It is not a population of urban poor who cannot escape their circumstances. So when you think of the work that had to go into getting this job in a factory, it's pretty amazing. They could have been living off the land, surrounded by family, but they sacrificed that life for hard cash, with which they might hope to emigrate, or buy a house for their kids.

And here we must ask ourselves: why can't they earn that cash working on the farm?

Ah, that's the catch. They can't because the world price of many agricultural staples is below that of the small-scale production cost.

So in fact, working in the factory is desirable to the workers because it provides them a way to earn a tiny bit more than they would have otherwise, which allows them to buy very small amounts of status goods or get slightly better educations. This is a sacrifice they are willing to make.

You say I'm coming from a privileged viewpoint. I started working as a janitor at 15 and have been working in countries where the average income is less than $1/day for the past 8 years (since I was 21). I don't believe in ad hominem defences but I would ask that you take my point of view as that of someone with experience in this.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I guess I misread your posts... you seem to be agreeing but I only read the disagree one. I see that the links you posted support my position (in general). Thanks for posting those!


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## greenwoman2006 (Feb 1, 2006)

Amen Sister!

I shop only thrift stores for our entire family's clothing, (though I admit to buying my toddler's socks at Target). I sew. Learning to sew and knit, very valuable! Once every couple of years, I buy a pair of Birkenstock shoes. They last me forever, and they are all I need to wear besides my house slippers, lol!

Oh, and underwear should definitely be purchased new, I agree!









What I have been completely disgusted by lately is every time I am on some mama chat somewhere online, dozens and dozens of mamas tout the fabulousness of shopping at Walmart. I am thoroughly disgusted. I yell at my friends for shopping there.

Walmart has a proven track record, so how can so many crunchy mamas, into cloth diapering (for instance), love their Walmart?!!! I think I need to join some group against Walmart. But I am tired of hearing, "I know how bad it is, but it is just SO cheap to shop there!"

Can we please stop the madness, and stop Sprawlmart?!!!

Thanks for letting me rant.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simple living mama* 
I do all thrift. They may have been made in sweatshops but since it's all second hand, Im not supporting it and I certainly don't wear anything with a Nike label or Gap. My next step is to learn how to sew better.

The one thing I don't buy used is shoes and underwear. It's a chore to find things not made in China and even then you are not sure if they are made in sweat shops.

We live in a crazy stupid world don't we? I can't help being so disgusted by it sometimes.


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