# For those of you considering circumcision...



## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Consider getting these three e-mails from your son 21 years later... P.S. I personally wrote these e-mails to my mother. I love her more than anything in this world, which is why I cannot imagine why she did this to me. If you want to know what I really felt after I realized what had been done to me, read the e-mails below. Eventually, every intact boy will accept the beautiful body that god gave him. Just keep in your mind that if you do circumcise your son, he may feel like I have felt (an incomplete, mutilation of his man-hood, and the denial of erotic sensation, with can cause eternal dispair). If you ask a circumcised man if he has pleasure during sex, the answer will be yes. It will be an 8 out of 10. It's always an 8 out of 10. I have attempted reconstruction of my penis and let me assure you that the circumcised penis with an inner foreskin and a moist sensitive glans is at least 5 times better than a penis without. I suspect, although cannot confirm that an uncircumcised penis is 5 times more sensitive than mine (as a conservatively mutilated individual). You never know what you've lost unless you had it to begin with. Read the e-mails.

---

I've been furious over this for the last few years and I need to tell someone. It's abhorrent and disgusting, and usually performed without any anesthesia. The medical reasons are all bullsh*t if you read more than one sentence on anything. It is nothing short of mutilation of the most precious and natural part of being a human being, and I will never get to really experience it. I feel betrayed and violated by both of my parents, and for my own sake, I need you to know that this will bother me until I die. Every day I take a shower it is all I think about. This was stolen from me, and all for absolutely bogus retarded arguments that any sane first year med student would dismiss. I can't wear clothes without constantly feeling uncomfortable. I thought this was normal and apparently it's not. For someone who finished medical school and law school, your ignorance is staggering... Apparently the word "liberty" is not in the constitution, and the hippocratic oath doesn't really exist. You say you believe in protecting helpless children. Well I don't understand how any caring human being could possibly allow this to happen. You have no
idea.

Read this... All of it.
http://norm.org/lost.html

Your son.

---------------------------

answer my g*d damn e-mail...

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You don't know the unbeleivable inexcusable damage that you have caused me as a person and as a physical being of this world. If you refuse to acknowledge even the slightest responsibility for my mutilation, than we will not be talking again. I love you, but what you did was inexcusable. You have made a horrible mistake. The most sensual and erotic part of my body has been carelessly and painfully excised from my body and tossed into the trash as a worthless piece of sh*t. My sexuality is gone forever, and I have been denied my birth-right to not be scraped cut and abused with pain that you cannot possibly imagine during your existence in this world. It was my d*mn body and you made my entire life a black-and-white film of what could have been a beautiful colorful and sensual experience. You can believe what you want, but what you did was wrong, unforgivable, disgusting, a violation of every basic tenant of human rights, and a disgrace to the human race. I would rather be dead than accept what you forced upon me as an acceptable part of this existence. You betrayed me in the worst imaginable way. I hate what you did to me. You said you will never get over Paul, well I pray to god that you will never get over this.
...

Goodbye Mom


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

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I made the very poor choice of circing my older son. I am so afraid that this is how he feels too. I have apologized to him through the wazoo and told him it was the biggest %&$# up I have ever made as his mother, without a doubt. I just don't know what else to do.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Have your parents replied to you?


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

I just wish I knew why this happened to me... I've never been a bad person! I just want to understand why-- I love her so much but I can never forgive her. I want to so bad but I've had a glimpse of what she took away from me. I love her so much... I love her so much I just want to know why-- why this had to happen

I love her! I don't know, my dad doesn't know, no one knows what they've lost, but it's so much-- no one wants to admit what happened to them, and no one wants to admit that there is anything wrong with themselves, its an endless cycle of abuse. it's normal so the boy is abused, he's abused and thinks it's normal. god, i just wish it had happened by accident, or by my own intent.

the most sensitive part of my penis is the inner foreskin. i was lucky and it was left almost entirely intact. in a bris most men are completely stripped of this. i could never imagine what this was like, and i can't help but beleive that i will never know what is like to be intact, just like the man with absolutely no foreskin, will never know what it is like to have an inner foreskin.. i feel cheated and robbed--- just know it is not your fault, but let people know-- foreskin is not skin, it is the male sex organ which is ripped (litterally) away from the penis in an excrutiantingly painful "procedure".

If I have a son I will never let him go what I have been through.

If you really want your son to be circumcised, perform the procedure yourself. I gaurentee that you will collapse in tears just watching him suffer.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

No, my parent (I only sent it to my mom, since my dad is circumcised, and would feel inferioir had he known what he was missing... plus it was my mom's decision for "health reasons" and "so I would look like my dad") has not responded. If you are considering it for these reasons please stop! He can always get it done later if he wants

I only wish my parents could have felt the dispair the have caused me. "It's not fair" is a stupid arguement, but I cuold accept my genitals being cut off because of foreign nationals, I could accept my genitals being deformed because of disease... I cannot accept my genitals being deformed because my mom thought it was pretty.


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## nini02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 







:








I made the very poor choice of circing my older son. I am so afraid that this is how he feels too. I have apologized to him through the wazoo and told him it was the biggest %&$# up I have ever made as his mother, without a doubt. I just don't know what else to do.









I think acknowledging it and apologizing is huge, mama. Big hugs for you...









To the OP, I'm so so sorry







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## jserral (Apr 8, 2007)

Quote:

I just wish I knew why this happened to me... I've never been a bad person! I just want to understand why--
Well, the simplest way to answer this is, she thought she was doing what was best for you... or at the very least, didn't think it would harm you. My mom for instance, didn't really like the idea of the procedure, but when she had my older brother (early 80s), it was just what you did, the doctors recommended it and people she knew did it. Yea, she knew it would hurt, but from her perspective, it would be worth it in the long run.

After going through the procedure with my older brother, she regretted it, but again, thought it was for the best. I think she was a bit more against it when I was born, but my dad wanted the procedure done, and since he had the penis (which is intact....), it was done and the same for both my younger brothers.

For you, (i am guessing from your bris comment), your parents also had the religious reasons. I dont agree with forcing religion, but they still thought they were doing what was best according to their faith.

Yea, if my dad thought circ was so great he should have gotten it done, or if they would have realized if I wanted it done I can always get it done later maybe things would be different, but that is what happened. For me, the most annoying part of all this, is what is going on NOW.... why isn't the procedure stopped, that is what needs changed. We know better now and people still do it.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

No, my penis was deformed for "medical reasons". Third trimester abortion and neonatal male circumcision are the same to me. Both cause irreparable nerve damage, and excruciating pain. The only difference is one baby is freed into the void while the other is required to live his life, knowing every time he takes a shower that his parents have accidentally (hopefully) violated him in a fundamental and most idiotic way.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I'm leaving circumcision alone in this. I'm going to talk to you about your mother.

What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?

I ask because it's not clear to me, reading them, what response you want. You tell her that she hurt you incredibly and caused you unbearable pain, shame, discomfort, and loss of sensation. You say you'd rather be dead than the way you are now (a statement which would have me, as a mother, scrambling to get you into treatment for mental illness). And frankly, when people send me emails about how much I've hurt and betrayed them, complete with threats never to speak to me again, I don't feel that their claims to love me are terribly credible.

It was sweet of you to let your dad off the hook because you don't want to make him feel inferior about the sexual sensation he's missing, but it doesn't seem terribly fair to me. Should he not have protected you? It comes off looking as if you are just determined to beat up on your mother.

You're angry at your mom. That's understandable. You've issued her a bunch of ultimatums. Those never go well.

Your mother made a decision with the information she had at the time. As do we all. Your claim that "any sane first-year med student" would dismiss her reasons for circing is clearly false - all the non-circing mamas here can tell you, in detail, all about the apparently rational, fully qualified DOCTORS who think that circumcision is, at worst, harmless. There's a whole entire recent medical study about how circumcision prevents HIV, which is being used to pressure parents to circumcise. Every time a non-circed boy gets a UTI, his parents can be reasonably certain of hearing that they should get the kid circumcised to fix it. Sane, medically trained people make these recommendations.

Your mother's decision was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a culture imbued with all kinds of systemic violence. This violence is *still* presented, not just to parents, but to everybody, as unavoidable in its specifics. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that uncircumcised boys were doomed to shame and social isolation. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that if her sons were bullied, teased, tortured, that there would be nothing she could do to protect them without stunting their growth. She didn't have better informational resources 21 years ago than the vast majority of mothers (including mothers with medical degrees) have today.

She certainly does not have a perfect source of advice on how to deal with either your pain or your correspondence.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

I understand the anger, but I don't see where attacking your mom is going to help you here. Chances are she bought the party line that circ was necessary or painless or both. My son is intact, but if I'd had him ten years earlier he wouldn't have been. I simply wouldn't have had the first idea that there was a reason to disbelieve the medical community about this. We all as parents learn as we go. Stories like yours help us learn. Trashing your mom probably doesn't accomplish much, though.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

I also want to gently suggest that you work through some of your feelings about this before you enter into another sexual relationship. I can imagine that if I had been your partner as a young woman, I might have been very frightened by the vehemence with which you find sex unsatisfying.

I do have enormous sympathy. I wish no babies were EVER circ'd, and I did not and would not do it to my own. And I also want to encourage you to find ways to help your anger not get in the way of pleasure and love, which you deserve in your life.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

I don't know... I just want my life back.. I want to know that she could never do such a thing to me. I want to know that society would not encourage her to do such a thing to me. I want to know that people have empathy and care about me. I want to know that soceity would have excruciating empathy with a helpless child that has such a traumatic event forced upon him. I want to know that in this day and age such barbaric practices don't excist, and that I can live my sexual life as a normal human being.

Of course none of these things are true. The world is not fair, babies do not have the same rights as anyone even a year older. I don't want my mom to suffer, I just need someone to know how much they hurt me. I've spent three years saying nothing. I've been in a periodic state of depression. My own selfish sense needs someone to know that they made a mistake.

Sure my dad made a mistake too-- but my dad doesn't really care about anyone. Ironically it is the person I care about most who is the only person who will listen to me, who will feel guilty, and eventually who will alleviate me of the pain I have been holding inside about what was inflicted upon me.

Quote:

What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?

I ask because it's not clear to me, reading them, what response you want. You tell her that she hurt you incredibly and caused you unbearable pain, shame, discomfort, and loss of sensation. You say you'd rather be dead than the way you are now (a statement which would have me, as a mother, scrambling to get you into treatment for mental illness). And frankly, when people send me emails about how much I've hurt and betrayed them, complete with threats never to speak to me again, I don't feel that their claims to love me are terribly credible.

It was sweet of you to let your dad off the hook because you don't want to make him feel inferior about the sexual sensation he's missing, but it doesn't seem terribly fair to me. Should he not have protected you? It comes off looking as if you are just determined to beat up on your mother.

You're angry at your mom. That's understandable. You've issued her a bunch of ultimatums. Those never go well.

Your mother made a decision with the information she had at the time. As do we all. Your claim that "any sane first-year med student" would dismiss her reasons for circing is clearly false - all the non-circing mamas here can tell you, in detail, all about the apparently rational, fully qualified DOCTORS who think that circumcision is, at worst, harmless. There's a whole entire recent medical study about how circumcision prevents HIV, which is being used to pressure parents to circumcise. Every time a non-circed boy gets a UTI, his parents can be reasonably certain of hearing that they should get the kid circumcised to fix it. Sane, medically trained people make these recommendations.

Your mother's decision was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a culture imbued with all kinds of systemic violence. This violence is *still* presented, not just to parents, but to everybody, as unavoidable in its specifics. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that uncircumcised boys were doomed to shame and social isolation. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that if her sons were bullied, teased, tortured, that there would be nothing she could do to protect them without stunting their growth. She didn't have better informational resources 21 years ago than the vast majority of mothers (including mothers with medical degrees) have today.

She certainly does not have a perfect source of advice on how to deal with either your pain or your correspondence.
Above all is the overwhelming sense of loss. This is something that no man who knows what happened to him can truely cure. If he is lucky enough to never realize or recognize what happened to him, then he is exceptionally lucky. However, I beleive that most of us are either in a sense of denial or deep sense of regret. It is the denial that perpetuates the procedure. Despite what some beleive, religion does not alleviate your responcibility to keep your children intact. Medically, the situation is the same. You would not cut off a woman's breast simply because it MAY develop cancer, in the same way that I would hope society and my mom in particular would not cut off part of my penis because it may (1 in 10,000) develop penal cancer. The whole thing is unbeleivably barbaric, and I have yet to meet anyone who has shown me different.

She may have been "dupped by the party line", but it is not her, but I that must live with the consequences of that decision. The sensation is paramount to being raped and for [at least] 50% of your gentials to be cut up and thrown in the trash. If considered, it is a deep and emotional betrayal of the person who is closest to you. I try to not blame anyone for anything, but it is so difficult in the case that the (albeit accidental) betrayer is the person closest to you in this world. It may be more difficult that you realize. Most men never deal with this because they vehemently avoid thinking about the true nature of their circumcision.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I am so very sorry for your physical losses and your emotional pain.









I have to echo the previous posters, though. I know it hurts tremendously to believe that your mother deliberately hurt you, but I think you have to understand where she was at the time you were born, not where she might be now if she were to have another son. It really is only in the last couple of years with the widespread availability of information on the internet that the truth about circumcision is FINALLY getting out there. For years and years -- generations, really -- ALL the information about circ was positive. It was the rare parent, and the even rarer doctor, who decided against/advised against circumcision. The media, parenting books, medical journals -- all full of the party line about circumcision.

I don't think it's fair to blame your mother for making a bad decision based on bad information, when really -- where was she supposed to get better information?

I also don't think it's fair to let your dad off the hook. If he was fine with his circed status -- why was your mom supposed to figure out that circ was bad?

And in the final analysis, the ones who REALLY deserve the blame are the doctors and our circ-happy society that's been pushing circ for over a hundred years.

As Margaret Mead, the renowned anthropologist, once said -- if a fish were an anthropologist, the last thing it would discover would be water. In other words, if you grow up living and breathing something as truth -- how are you even to know that what you know is true down to your bones might be wrong?

I hope you can find it in your heart to have a real conversation with your mother. It may be incredibly hard for her to admit she and your dad made a terrible mistake, but try to understand -- I am 100% positive she did not deliberately harm you. I am 100% positive she did what she thought was in your best interest, and there was no one and nothing to tell her otherwise.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
I don't know... I just want my life back.. I want to know that she could never do such a thing to me. I want to know that society would not encourage her to do such a thing to me. I want to know that people have empathy and care about me. I want to know that soceity would have excruciating empathy with a helpless child that has such a traumatic event forced upon him. I want to know that in this day and age such barbaric practices don't excist, and that I can live my sexual life as a normal human being.

Of course none of these things are true. The world is not fair, babies do not have the same rights as anyone even a year older. I don't want my mom to suffer, I just need someone to know how much they hurt me. I've spent three years saying nothing. I've been in a periodic state of depression. My own selfish sense needs someone to know that they made a mistake.

Sure my dad made a mistake too-- but my dad doesn't really care about anyone. Ironically it is the person I care about most who is the only person who will listen to me, who will feel guilty, and eventually who will alleviate me of the pain I have been holding inside about what was inflicted upon me.

You want your life back? Who has it now?

Your mother cannot alleviate your pain at this point. She can't give you your foreskin back. She can't reform your opinion about sex and pleasure and what was done to your body. That is not to say that nothing can be done - I would encourage you to find a therapist with some experience in these issues - but it is not work that your mother can undertake.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Quote:

I hope you can find it in your heart to have a real conversation with your mother. It may be incredibly hard for her to admit she and your dad made a terrible mistake, but try to understand -- I am 100% positive she did not deliberately harm you. I am 100% positive she did what she thought was in your best interest, and there was no one and nothing to tell her otherwise
I know that she had nothing but good intentions when she ordered it. Still, I can't help but feel a sense of loss. I... part of it is jealousy that my step-brother wil never go through the same thing... try to understand that it is not that I want her to suffer, as much as I need someone to acknowledge my loss. and in case you're still not convinced their is a loss, there most certianly is a loss of way over half of the sexual tissue. I just feel like she should have known better. Had I been in the 1960's I still would never have consented to having anything cut off my newborn baby. Even if I had not had an instintual aversion to this, I would still spend days researching every intricate detail of the procedure. after all, it's going to affect him for the rest of his life?

perhaps (or rather most definately) my view is biased. there is no way I could truely predict what I would have done under the same circumstances. however... it's just not right. i'm frustrated that she just couldn't see that. i believe in evolution, which states that "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I wasn't broke, she "fixed" it anyway. shes got a law degree, and shes a cardiologist. if anyone could understand, she could, and yet she didn't. our society didn't. i have an inevitable anger and i don't know where to place it--


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

PAXIMPERIA,

I know first-hand about the passion surrounding the anti-circ movement, but wow, you are coming on incredibly strong.

I'm hearing a lot about how you "feel" like your sex life has been stripped of your, your life void of meaning etc. Have you suffered from any real, physical trauma from circ? Like tight erections, skin bridges, skin breaks etc?

Cause if not, I think for your sanity and health, you should recognize that was done to you was wrong, express that to your mother, but move forward with your life.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think it's interesting, and disheartening, the viciousness that is unleashed upon mothers about this subject, while fathers get off basically scot free.

I would suggest to the OP that you think long and hard about this rage toward your mother, and the ignoring/justifying/minimizing of your father's responsibility in this.

I hear that you feel he would not care about it, and that you are concerned about highlighting his 'deficiency' as he too is circed. But, why use your mother's caring as a lure to unleash this torrent of venom upon her? And why spare your father's feelings, but not your mother's?


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what _really_ bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Have you considered restoration? You will be able to maintain that sensitivity while gaining the protection against constant irritation when not in use. Of course it will never give you back all that you lost and will be a poor representation but it may help you in some ways both physically and psychologically.

You might even want to discuss the costs of surgical restoration with your mother AND father. They paid for the surgery to do this in the first place, perhaps you could convince them to contribute to the correction of their mistake.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what _really_ bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.

Ahh. Ok.

I was going to say, if you never had any way of knowing the difference, why torture yourself, but I understand a bit more now.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Actually I have. The foreskin restoration can never restore the most sensitive fenar band, but it can protect the glans from abrasion, making the previous conversation moot. Actually I've ordered one of these devices, and I feel that in a way it gives me a way to reclaim what was taken from me, in addition to the intensely sexual and new sensastions from the moist glans. Still, that leaves one-third (and most likely the most importiant one third missing). It helps, but does not alleviate my problem entirely. Keep in mind that I was lucky and retained almost all of the very sensitive inner foreskin. Normally it is removed fully of partially. This is part of what makes me so convinced that circumcision is universally undesireable. Had I been completely circumcised, with the entire foreskin removed, virtually every sexually sensitive spot on my penis would have been removed. The inner foreskin, the frenullum, the frenar band, the m. corpsucles, the glans would dry up and become unresponsive. Keep in mind that circ was designed to reduce or eliminate mastrubatory pleasure and sexual urges. It still serves that function perfectly well today.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think it's interesting, and disheartening, the viciousness that is unleashed upon mothers about this subject, while fathers get off basically scot free.

I find it disenheartening that the anger isn't at the medical establishement... and the person, the doctors that do this.... everyday.

In most cases (I have no idea about the posters mother of course) MOST of the mother are 'victims' who were told lies and mistruths to make them believe it is necessary to consent to harm. Most parents are coached to look at circumcision as something that causes some pain to prevent something 'worse'.

Someone has a siggie that says something like: circumcisoin is a violatoin of a child and a wound to the mother's heart... And I agree that in almost all cases circumcison is a wound to the mother because it causes her to neglect/deny her nurturing instincts. Some people will never heal from that wound and others will deny it. We don't know your mother well enough to know which or why, but YOU know your mother and though this makes things confusing and hard, it doesn't diminish the love you have felt from her.

I hope you can find out more about this, maybe your mom needs a little more time to process this. When did you confront her?

Your anger and pain is real and does not deserve to be diminished in ANY way... I'm just not sure that the fault lies soley on your mothers shoulders... and that is what I'm interpreting from your post.... I apologize if I've misunderstood.

Jessica


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

My mother is the medical establishment. She has performed circs before, most likely many of them, as has my father (who is also a doctor). The whole damn system is misinformed, the parents, the doctors, and more or less anyone else involved in the project. The male is very very worried/concerned/in denial about even the slight possibility that his manliness may be sub-par. Consequently he comes up with any and every excuse to justify, rationalize, and continue the practice because "it's perfectly normal". He needs to believe this, because anything otherwise would be absolutely devastating for your average man to accept. When I say devastating, I mean really devastating. Throw this in with the medically unnecessary but frequently touted medical "benefits" (ignoring entirely the medical disadvantages such as sexual insensitivity) of foreskin truncation, the fact that women circ their babies even 56% today, is not terribly suprising. However, it is terrible. If you discover what occurs during a circ, you may be very suprised. The very very very sensitive and raw glans is essentially ripped prematurely from the inner foreskin, _years_ before it's appropriate seperation would occur naturally. Because the glans is dried up and insensitive because of the doctors own circ, he is likely to dismiss the babies pain in such a process (during circ). In fact, the silence after separating the glans from the inner foreskin is not calm placidness, but is in fact excruciating pain of such an enormous caliber that it causes the infant to cease breathing, or screaming, recessing into a deep state of trance to deal with the unbeleivable pain which is equivalent to stabbing your genitals with a sharp knife continuously.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

OP. I hope that you can channel your anger at your mother into the medical establishment as well and find ways to let them know how you feel. Your mother could only do what they told her to. Back when you were born there was no internet for most people. My mother had my brothers circed and it pains her greatly now that she knows what they lost. Maybe your mother feels the same way but dosnt know how to tell you.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

No one here will disagree with you for one second about the harms of circ. That's what we're here for -- to try to save babies. Believe me, a more educated bunch of men and women it would be hard to find!!!!!

I can understand that you're pissed beyond words at your mom (and I hope your dad, because honestly he has no better excuse than she does). But even if they are the medical establishment -- especially because they're the medical establishment -- you have to realize, their training was all about the dangers of the foreskin. It has only been in the last several years that the research has been done on the functions of the foreskin, its sensitivity, etc. Yeah, that should all be common sense -- but look at the incredible lack of knowledge of the female body that was perpetuated for many years, too. The whole Freudian BS about clitoral vs. vaginal orgasms, etc. and no one actually bothered to study the structure and function of the foreskin. The point is -- if all your training and education has taught you one thing, it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to question it.

Look at the whole ulcer thing. How now we know that ulcers are caused by bacterial infections, but it was "known" beyond a shadow of a doubt by the medical establishment for YEARS that it was spicy foods etc. that caused ulcers.

Or look at poor Ignatius Semmelweiz, who came up with the wacky theory that doctors shouldn't go from the dissecting rooms to the delivery ward without washing their hands, and literally ended his life in an insane asylum because he was laughed/shamed out of respectable medical circles.

The point is -- I don't think we should diminish for a second the responsibility that the medical profession has for a multitude of sins, from circumcision to the lamentable state of affairs that US childbirth is in today to god knows what we'll discover tomorrow is completely wrong, especially given that NOW the information to do things differently is widely available.

But you still have to recognize that your parents did what they thought was the right thing to do based on their education and training. It was wrong, but they didn't know it at the time. I am positive that they did not intend to hurt you.







I only hope you can have a conversation with them now to help them see how much more we know, and how traumatized and violated you feel, without demonizing them for not knowing better than the rest of the medical establishment.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Yeah.. It still sucks, but yeah.. I know it's not their fault and I think I'm almost done venting after the last few days. This is still something that I will never recover from-- but eventually I will learn to live with it.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Paximperia,

Edited to add: the previous 2 posts were posted when I was writing this response... I'm a slow writer, so I think quirky made the point about drs training that I was trying to make

You are preaching to the choir here... this is the Case Against Circumcision, a pro-intact forum and most of us are well informed. I'm sorry your parents should know better. I'm sure they were trained that it was necessary, even if their instincts and logic should have shown them the truth. It is hard to find doctors that didn't get that type of info. Very hard.

Further exploration on the MDC forums will show you parallel deceptions-- women abused in their pregnancy and births-denied the truth and forced or compelled to accept interventions-- indeed many women have even physically been cut unnecessarily by episiotomy. And our babies are the victims of many other harmful practices that are unnecesary. Circumcisoin is by far the biggest atrocity (imo) but the whole birth culture in our society is extremely unsupportive of natural normal birth. It is easy for me \who doesn't know the people we are talking about or the exact situation to guess that yoru family just went along with the norms of the time, w/o thinking about it and w/o anyone stepping in to telll or get them to think about it. And to imagine a birth that left things to be desired and further trampled on the parenting instincts.... I certainly don't know, but I only try to make logical assumptions, and I'll admit I coudl be wrong. Did your mother have a wonderful amazing fully supported beautiful birth-- or did she also go through the system and was one who was left vulnerable???

My pedi 'bullied' me into giving my 1 day old son a hep b shot, even though I knew a little about it being unnecessary. I didn't have the fight left in me to stand up to my pedi-- even though I could have about circ... putting all my pregnanc energy into the circ battle left me under-resourced in supporting myself in other avenues-- so I lost my wish for a natural birth, had trouble breastfeeding, consented to unnecessary potentially harmful things such as hep b-- all because the SYSTEM is stacked against normal natural births. Had I had an amazing birth experience like I did with my daughter, I have a VERY strong suspicion I would have been able to stand up to my pedi and said, no thanks... etc. etc.

I have a sense that some of our posters (or lurkers) may first work through the issue personally before being able to move forward. But I do think that looking at the mother/birth expereince/ and circumcisoin practices are all important pieces of the puzzle. The sensations you have are certainly very different from most men, as well. I know my dh does not have the same sensations or frustrations, even though he is at a loss too. Your mother certainly would not expect this. I don't really know where I'm going with this....

We all focus on different aspects of the problem as there are many ways the lies and diseption reaches out to harm... just as there are many ways the truth also manifests. On this forum we area all reaching out and working for postive changes.
Many of us start advocating for a gentle pregancy and birth for our future generations, intactness being a huge part of that- not only for the baby but becaus it honours our parenting instincts too.

Jessica


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## tlh (Oct 10, 2007)

since your parents are your parents and doctors they only want what is best for you and they know more than anyone what it takes to rebuild a foreskin.you should definitely talk to them about this and they will probably find a doctor that can do the restoration and pay for it.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

I think the OP was intense. But I understand your anger. I understand it in a very very very far removed way.

I was given an episiotomy without consent after written and verbal refusal of said episiotomy.

That resident thought he was helping me. He made a mistake, he forgot I had said no. He is human.

The rage I feel towards him is irrational at times. The shooting pains that would wake me out of a dead sleep for a year afterwards made me want to find him and scream at him. I wanted to know why he felt like he could destroy my body, why he felt so powerful, why he went against all procedures. I know the answers to these questions. I am a nurse. I have seen situations get hectic, I have seen fellow professionals forget, make mistakes. I know why.

Truth is, I want him to look at me and apologize.

Will he? never. Because he would say all the reasons he did it. He would defend himself.

I may be off base, but if my mother had chosen to remove my clitoral hood because of medical advice and societla norms, and 27 years later I confronted her with the pain it has caused me..... I would want her to say, "i am so sorry I chose this for you, I was wrong".

Deep down we all know why things were done to us. But there is nothing more soothing than to have someone recognize our feelings.

I had a therapist say to me, "you were betrayed by someone in a position of power that you trusted. You are allowed to mourn that loss and cry for your pain"

it was like nothing Ive experienced. She validated that hurt in me, without once saying, "well he was helping" or "he thought he did whats best".

ya know?

I can tell you, the first time that I showered after giving birth and felt the huge episiotomy scar- I vomited, I felt mutilated, destroyed, like my womanhood had been turned into frakenstein.

Sometimes the shocking immediate realization of what has been done to us makes us go a little agro. Healing takes time.

OP, I hope you find your peace.


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## youngnaturalist (Oct 20, 2007)

Hello, this is my first post here. I also am 21 and I have felt the exact same way that you do. Restoring helps some, but you never can have your original body part back. I have to say "thank you" for posting because I thought that I was the only one my age that felt this way, but I see that Im not. Feel free to PM if you want. I was wondering if there is a place for teens and young adults to vent and talk and support eachother about this. I personally know a few people from their teens to their twenties that said they think circumcision is stupid, but thats about as far as they go. I just have never had the guts to talk about it, because it has caused me so much pain, both mental and psychological. The word "circumcision" itself causes me to have a severe panic attack when I hear it said out loud. It is now up to us to stop this horrible mutilation and the more people our age that are informed the better.







It has already helped me just to start talking about to someone for the first time even though its online. lol.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

I was wondering if there is a place for teens and young adults to vent and talk and support eachother about this.
I found these, maybe they'll be helpful for you?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/I_Hate_Circumcision/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/against_circumcision/


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## tlh (Oct 10, 2007)

i am older than you guys(33) i have always hated being circumcised but have never found any support groups.it would be nice to have one that included males and females because this can happen to girls too.also including a therapist might be a good idea.if you find one or create one let me know.in the meantime you should

support the MGM bill

http://www.mgmbill.org/

sign The Ashley Montagu Resolution and Petition

http://montagunocircpetition.org/

and post your stories at blOUCH

http://www.genitalintegrity.net/blouch/


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## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that your mother felt she had the right to do that to you! It's your body and it should have been your choice. You were robbed, of not only a penis that works the way it's ment to, but of the right to bodily integrity. Im' so sorry for you and every other circumcised man and woman out there... I don't know what else to write...
I would never ever circumcise a son or daughter, but if I ever make a parenting mistake that grave (which I doubt that I will), I hope that I will be humble enough to acknowledge it and apologise. And that my children will find it in their hearts to at least try to forgive me.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

This thread made me cry. I'm so sorry for you, Pax. I'm sorry for your parents because they had been brainwashed, but I'm devastated for you. And it makes me feel devastated for my husband, too. I fear that he will figure out how much he has lost and go through the same feelngs that you have. I'm so glad that I grew up in a culture that felt intact was normal and that I didn't even consider circumcision for my children and I advocated for them. I was so lucky.

Best wishes for getting through your grieving process and having a helpful restoration. I hope your letters to your mother will make her rethink everything that she has done.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I'm so sorry. I know it must be a very painful place that you're in right now, and it's hard to be rational when something like this happens, especially right when you've been awakened to it. Have you connected with the folks at NORM yet? Perhaps there are members near you and regular meetings. I imagine attending their meetings would be very, very helpful in working through your feelings to find a place of peace about this.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?
I suspect what he hoped was that his mother would see how much pain he is in and that she would apologize to him. It doesn't sound like that's happened though.

I'm so sorry Pax, for you and all the men like you. I hope you can get past the rage at some point, because it's men like you who are likely to have the most impact in stopping this atrocity.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

I lost the circ debate with my husband and was coerced into signing the release (I was on narcotics). Not a day goes by that I don't regret it. Getting a letter like the one you wrote your mom is my worst fear, and if I got one like that I'd more than likely kill myself. Just so you know.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

I probably shouldn't have told her for her own sake, but I couldn't hold that intense frustration in for the rest of my life. I feel much better and I think I am starting to accept my fate. However, this is very hard to do [for me in particular]. I'm gay and my boyfriend isn't circumcised, which is what started me thinking about the whole issue. I would imagine that the reason that 50% of the men on anti-circ boards seem to be gay, is because they see a wide range of them. Most men probably think everyone's penis looks like theirs, and will likely die without ever having realized what was missing. This is a good thing I suppose, except that it perpetuates the practice. This maybe difficult for mother's who have had their children circumcised, but you need to somehow let your children know that they should not circumcise their children. Hopefully you can find some way of doing this without leading them down the same path that I have been going through. If you don't, they may fall into the same trap that my dad fell into with me. Someone needs to break the cycle.

In case your wondering, every circumcised penis looks different, and with varying degrees of problems/deformities (scars, hair on the penis because of shaft skin loss, etc). What set me off was that all of the things I have always disliked about my penis are because of the circumcision. I didn't realize it then obviously. I just accepted it. After becoming intimately familiar with what an intact person looks like, and how the whole thing in general, works, I've realized why I had these dissatisfactions. It's like my eyes were opened. "So that's how it's supposed to work!" Then I realized that was not how mine works, and led through the sequence of events above.

P.S. My mom did send me a very short but sincere apology, and let me know that when I'm ready that we can have a talk about it [in person]. I don't know when that will be...


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I'm glad your mom was able to validate your feelings. I hope you'll be able to have a good conversation with her about it at some point.

And I do hope you'll look into manual restoration....no, you can't get everything back but it's a way to take control of your body and help heal some of the damage that was done to you.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

pax- im so sorry you have been hurt. you have every right to be angry and sad and to grieve your loss. i do hope you find peace.

i have to say, your story has touched my heart. i nearly cried when i read that your mother apologized to you. it must mean so much to you to have her say that.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
I lost the circ debate with my husband and was coerced into signing the release (I was on narcotics). Not a day goes by that I don't regret it. Getting a letter like the one you wrote your mom is my worst fear, and if I got one like that I'd more than likely kill myself. Just so you know.










This is not likely to happen to you if you let him know how much you regret your actions and do not allow any future sons to be circumcised. When he's older, you can tell him about foreskin restoration.
By the way, Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC, has three circumcised sons! She had them back in the 70's, and at the time, she thought it was just a routine procedure. Then she went back to nursing school and witnessed a circumcision. She was horrified. She now has intact grandsons!


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

While I absolutely agree with you on the circumcision issue, an email like that from my son would leave me so... upset isn't even the word... I don't even know what to say. I truly believe that parents back then made the choice they did out of love. The doctors tricked them into believing that circumcision was best. It was and is not. But they didn't know that, back then most parents believed that doctor's word was like law, it was the truth and you had to do what they said. Your mom cannot go back and undid what was done. And the way you approached it probably devestated her. I just feel there would be far better ways for a son to talk to his mother about something like this. They do need to realize your anger over the issue, but you also need to be a bit more gentle to your mother if she was for the most part, a wonderful mother. We all make mistakes. Thank goodness, my son is intact, but I'm sure I'll make other mistakes. I only hope he'll be wise enough to see that none of us are perfect and that I do truly love him more than anything else in this world and only made the decisions I did out of that love.

I do hope you're able to find a way to relieve your anger on the subject. Maybe restoration and talking to other mothers about not making the same mistake for their son would help.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

I'm going to have to echo what others have said.

As parents, we agonize over every decision we make with regards to our children. The responsibility of making decisions for our babies, who cannot do it themselves, is staggering. Every day I wonder what stupid thing I am going to do (or have already done) that will mess up my children.

But we do the best we can with the information we have.

I am so sorry for what was done to you. It was wrong, and I completely understand your anger. You have a right to it. I just hope that you will be able to recognize that your mom, regardless of mistakes she has made, loves you as much as you obviously love her.

I live with the hope that a day will come when people stop believing that it is okay to do this to children, and I hope that others will read your story and think twice about what they are doing to their sons.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Pax, I'm sorry that you were circumcised.

I circumcised my first son; I believed the nonsense. I left my second son intact, because I knew better then.

I can't explain to you how much it pains me to know what I did to and took from my son. I've seen videos of circs and heard babies cry during it, and each time I shed tears for my little boy who endured that all alone so young. I wish I could take it back, but I can't.

I will tell my son one day what was done and why. I will apologize. I'll offer to pay for restoration. That's not enough, I know, but I hope it will earn his understanding and forgiveness.

Please be more gentle when talking to your mother about this in the future. Please remember she is probably hurting, too, knowing that you're in pain because of her and your father's choice.

If I received emails like that from my son I would be heartbroken. I would tell him he's right, and I'm sorry. But I hope very much that my son will be gentle with me about it.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

I wish that all the moms that I know that are all about circ would read this, might make them reconsider. I am so GLAD that i left e intact. And to the women who blamed the early eighties 'trend', my bro was left intact cause my mom saw through the bullshit and when she was in nursing school and just saw how they are straped down she knew how wrong it is. Just cause everyone else does it doesn't make it right.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I truly believe that parents back then made the choice they did out of love. The doctors tricked them into believing that circumcision was best. It was and is not. But they didn't know that, back then most parents believed that doctor's word was like law, it was the truth and you had to do what they said. Your mom cannot go back and undid what was done.

His mother WAS a doctor.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

You have every right in the world to mourn your loss























How old are you? If you're 18, it a PERFECT time to sue the doctor/hospital that had done it to you. There are few lawers out there who can help...


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I also wanted to say that I am so, so sorry. No one had the right to cut any part of your body without reason and without your consent.










I am glad that your mother has apologized. I hope that you are both able to work through this issue in your relationship.

I, also, wish that parents out there who talk about circumcision as their 'parental choice' could read your words and realise that they are talking about altering someone else's body - their child's body, not their own.

And their child will have an opinion about his circumcision when he is older - and his opinion is the only one that is important, so it should have been his choice.

For those moms here who circed in ignorance, and now regret it, I'm going to bump the 'letter to a regretful mother' thread - I think that might also be helpful.

The anger that men can feel when they realise what circumcision has taken from them is legitimate - I can well imagine how I would feel if I realised that I had been cut at birth and that the most sensitive part of my genitals were gone and I would never experience sex the way it was intended.

This anger makes the point better than any other words could what we all say here - that circumcision is NOT a parental choice. It is a choice that belongs ONLY to the owner of the penis in question.

For parents who have made that choice in the past before you realised the damage caused by circumcision - please do read the Letter to a Regretful Mother - if you explain to your son what happened, why and apologise, I am sure that he will forgive you and you will both be able to move on.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Not too many threads address the psychological impact of circumcision the way this one has. It is because of the empathy exhibited by all the posters here that this forum is a not only a safe place, but a healing place.

Circumcision has been a huge issue for me since the age of six when I realised that I had been "modified". I have felt anger, but much more , a feeling of HURT. I feel sure that the apology from his mother, and acknowlegement of the "wrong" will help PAX heal.

Personaly I find it therapeutic to come here and associate with "like minded" people. It is good to talk . It is even better to educate others. And it is positively uplifting when one can change a mind and save a baby boy .

Unfortunately we can not change the past. What is "done" is "done". However we can shape the future. I know first hand the terrible feeling of regret that those mothers here feel for allowing a son to be circumcised. My son was born in the '80s and I was adamant that would keep his foreskin. Sadly , at the age of 11, he "had to be circumcised" - for phimosis , discovered following an infection. There was no internet then, and no way to get information. I did fight for his genital integrity against the urologist (and DW, who believed in him), but in hindsight, not hard enough. From what I have learned on www.cirp.org and other sites, I would never let it happen today. We would find other ways to preserve his foreskin. We have talked about it and I have apologised many times. He is o.k. with it. He is now a father with an adorable little DD, and he has assured me that should he have a son, he will remain intact.

Intactivism heals.

I also believe that for those men who feel harmed by circumcision , restoration would help heal the wound. It will not restore the full function of a real foreskin, but, in the words of Jim Bigelow (author of "The joy of uncircumcising") , "it helps a man feel whole".


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska* 
I, also, wish that parents out there who talk about circumcision as their 'parental choice' could read your words and realise that they are talking about altering someone else's body - their child's body, not their own.

And their child will have an opinion about his circumcision when he is older - and his opinion is the only one that is important, so it should have been his choice.

That is a really, _really_ good point.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Dear Randy:

I'm your Mom, and I'm always going to love you. Nothing you can say or do can change that. I hope that you can get some peace and closure. At some point you need to move on. Life is what it is, and life is not forever.

In any case, I am here and I will remain here for you.

Love,

Mom


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Pax, I'm sorry for all the pain you are going thru.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
Dear Randy:

I'm your Mom, and I'm always going to love you. Nothing you can say or do can change that. I hope that you can get some peace and closure. At some point you need to move on. Life is what it is, and life is not forever.

In any case, I am here and I will remain here for you.

Love,

Mom

Clearly, she doesn't believe that she did anything wrong.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

Mom,

I remember when we went to the Eastern State Penitentiary for Halloween with Kel***. "Monsters Be Good!!". What a time! I remember when we went to Ireland to have our family reunion, and we crashed that wedding and danced together on the stage for an hour. I remember when I lost my license and you were willing to drive down 70 miles to pick me up. And then there was that time that I got arrested.

When my laptop got stolen, who helped me get another one? When I needed someone to listen, who was always there for me? I was bitter that you were never home when I was young, but you worked like heck to pay the bills. When I needed a place to live, who let me stay at her house? There was that time that my diapers were wet, when I wouldn't eat my broccoli, when I got into a fight with that kid in grade school, when I failed my algebra exam...

There is nothing that can take away the times that we've had together. You're not perfect, but neither am I. Your love means everything to me. The world would be a cold and dark place without it.

You once said that all love is conditional. There is nothing that could possibly make me love you any less-- no matter how angry I get in one night, know that I will always be there for you.

You once said after September 11th that you wanted to join the military. I asked what would happen if you died, and you said that we would cry at first, but we would eventually get over it. I cried so hard-- nothing could be further from the truth. There is no one in the world that could ever take your place. I will love you forever, no matter what I say : ) I have no doubt that Kel*** and A** do too. Don't ever forget that...

Randy

http://www.courtroomblog.com/myspace/music/breathe.mp3

"Love is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being "in love" which any of us can convince ourselves we are.

Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident. Your mother and I had it, we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two."


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Clearly, she doesn't believe that she did anything wrong.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

PAX,

It has been emotional reading through your posts and witnessing your powerful emotions dealing with your circumcision and your mother. I am so sorry you were hurt, are hurting, and I wish you comfort as you experience and cope with your pain. I hope your pursuit of manual restoration helps alleviate your suffering.

As a mom with two circumcised sons and deep regret and sadness for the mistakes I have made, I am so sorry for the pain you feel and endure.

The quote at the end of your last message is beautiful, btw.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

I'm sorry you were circumcised. I agree that it's nothing more than legal rape. Worse even, since rape doesn't normally involve amputation. I think you have every right to be mad. I also agree with people who say you need to chill and cut your mom some slack. She may be a cardiologist, but they work on hearts, not penises. She probably asked a pediatrician's advice about what to do, if she questioned it at all. Still, circumcision is stupid and totally sucks.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
and in case you're still not convinced their is a loss, there most certianly is a loss of way over half of the sexual tissue.

Uh yeah, we all know that







. Many of us have been fighting circumcision for years. There are parents on here with sons your age. No one on here needs a lecture, we're quite convinced that circumcision is damaging. Sorry to sound grumpy but you're going off on the wrong people.







:


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## tlh (Oct 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
Dear Randy:

I'm your Mom, and I'm always going to love you. Nothing you can say or do can change that. I hope that you can get some peace and closure. At some point you need to move on. Life is what it is, and life is not forever.

In any case, I am here and I will remain here for you.

Love,

Mom

i think your mom will do whatever it takes to help you.definitely talk to her about this and she will help you find a doctor to reverse your circumcision.most parents that circumcise think at the time they did the right thing.when they find out they were wrong they will do what is in the best interest of their child like they always thought they did.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 







:








I made the very poor choice of circing my older son. I am so afraid that this is how he feels too. I have apologized to him through the wazoo and told him it was the biggest %&$# up I have ever made as his mother, without a doubt. I just don't know what else to do.

You've done all that is needed. My husband's parents refuse to have any regrets or even talk about it.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

PAX, I fully support you expressing all that you have shared here. Too many men have been too silent for too long on this subject. Circumcision is a heinous crime, and perpetrators need to be held accountable.

From the bottom of my heart, Thank You for speaking out.

---

And pooey on PPs who suggest you have other issues with your mom.







:


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

PAX,

I know that you are working through many strong emotions right now, but one point from your original post concerns me....

_I would rather be dead than accept what you forced upon me as an acceptable part of this existence._

Please, if you ever consider ending your life, call a hotline. I feel this statement was an expression of raw emotion and you are probably now feeling better, but it would be irresponsible not to mention this.

Counseling to help you with the anger you feel may also give you some relief, and your mom may be willing to help with that if you desire it.

Best wishes.


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride* 
PAX, I fully support you expressing all that you have shared here. Too many men have been too silent for too long on this subject. Circumcision is a heinous crime, and perpetrators need to be held accountable.

From the bottom of my heart, Thank You for speaking out.

---

And pooey on PPs who suggest you have other issues with your mom.







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:
No matter how hurtful it is to mothers who regret the decision to circ,it's perfectly valid for victims to express rage. After all is said and done, it is the survivor who has to live with the crimes perpretrated against them.


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## mommymarliah (Jun 29, 2004)

I haven't read all the replies yet, but having read the first couple pages I just feel led to say this.

I think it is a good healthy thing to be honest about this, to get the anger out and to move on. I think the healthy way to deal with this is to talk about it, to be honest with your parents. How else can you hope to move on? you can't carry the anger inside you the rest of your life or it will destroy you. I think you are moving toward a better life and a happier life by getting this out in the open.

I think circ is a horrendous criminal act and people who do that to infants ought to serve prison time. Its simply common sense (at least in my mind) to NOT want to harm your own son.

I made the decision to be intactivist when I was 8 years old. 8 YEARS OLD! I saw my newborn nephew when his mom went to change him and his penis was a bleeding scabbed up mess. I asked why it was like that and I was told "well they have to cut part off a boys penis when he is born so he doesn't get infections" right then and there I said well there is no way I would ever do that to my kid. I would rather him have an infection than cut off part of his body.....

if an 8 year old can see the reality of that, then anyone who bothers to read about what circ is should realize what a barbaric and stupid practice it is.

Just thinking about someone strapping an infant to a table and cutting his penis makes me feel physically ill.

I think your anger is warranted. And I think she owes you an apology. At the very least she owes you an "I'm so sorry" for what she allowed to be done to you.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

I am over my initial feelings of rage on the subject. That being said, I do feel like an 8 year old would be better off making judgements on many societal norms than most adults. Circumcision is but one (gruesome) example.

Baptism would be another. Hey honey, we're just going to take your brother and pretend to drown him for a little while. Don't worry, it'll be hilarious. When my parents tried to drown me as a baby, I couldn't stop laughing as soon as they pulled me out of the water.

Lastly, when I was a baby, my parents put me in a crib in my own room. Apparently, some crack-pot psychologist at the time supported leaving your baby in the crib crying. If they make it out of the crib, put them back. Some how I made it over the edge of the crib onto the floor, and crawled into their room (I was probably 18 months at the time). They picked me up again, and put me back again, because "that's what we're supposed to do".

Love your children. Hold them, sing to them, but more than anything, let them know that you love them. I tried to kill myself when I was 16. No one had ever told me that they love me. NO ONE. It wasn't until I was 16, lying on the floor after taking a whole bottle of Xanax, completely unable to move, staring at the ceiling and wishing I was dead, that my mom finally told me she loved me.

It wasn't until a couple days ago, when my dad was diagnosed with coronary heart disease that he finally told me he loved me. I know that it was just the way they were raised, that people don't show emotions, especially men, but it is wrong wrong wrong. Throw out backwards societal conventions and hug your children. Hug your parents. Even hug the mailman.

Forget convention and psychologists tell you, and just do what you know in your heart is right.

P.S. It is beyond me why people think Female Genital Mutilation is any different from MGM, but it just goes to show you how inconceivably ignorant people can be.

P.S.S. Both of my parents are doctors, they have both performed many circumcisions. Circumcision is considered to be a "minor surgery", and most interns perform them after leaving medical school. Neither of them are "circumcision doctors". One is a cardiologist, and the other is an ER doctor.


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## PAXIMPERIA (Oct 20, 2007)

And by the way, I would like to thank everyone who has posted on here for helping me through this. Without being able to truly let out all of my feelings on the subject, I don't know what I would do.

Speaking of which, my dad basically blew him off. He "researched" circumcision on the net for all of ten minutes before deciding that there was no "firm medical literature" showing circ to be a bad thing. Clearly protecting himself from the pain of realizing his own circ.

My mom also cried hysterically, but still has not apologized to me. You have to understand that both of my parents performed this operation on other babies. To admit that this was not simply "cosmetic" surgery would be so unbelievably devastating emotionally, for both of them. I would not be suprised if this is part of the explanation for why circ is still so common. No doctor wants to admit to themselves what they have done.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
P.S.S. Both of my parents are doctors, they have both performed many circumcisions. Circumcision is considered to be a "minor surgery", and most interns perform them after leaving medical school. Neither of them are "circumcision doctors". One is a cardiologist, and the other is an ER doctor.









: Oh my gosh, I had no idea doctors other than OBs and Peds did circs. That is just insane.

You remind me of a quote my husband said, "That very first time my parents looked at me when I was still whole and perfect did they think to themselves, 'Oh he's going to be so happy in about 20 years when he finds out he's missing part of his penis?'" It just doesn't make any sense at all, does it?







:


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PAXIMPERIA* 
If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what _really_ bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.

You might want to get one of those SenSlip to slip over your now re-sensitive glans for protection:

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid...S215&q=senslip

http://search.ebay.com/circumcision_...mZR40QQfrtsZ50


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