# Is There Ever a Circumstance Where....



## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

...you would just "agree to disagree" about Ezzo?

I'm having a hard time here. A good friend of mine has 3 boys (well, four now, but I'll get to that in a minute). We met a little over a year ago, when her youngest was just about to turn one year. I asked her soon after we met if she was still nursing (I wanted to invite her to the LLL meetings if she was), but she told me she had had to quit due to low supply from PCOS.

We became pretty good friends....we have SO much in common! She homeschools (her 2 older boys are 7.5 and 5.5) and all our kids are close in age, and enjoy playing together. They are mindful of wholesome eating, they cloth-diaper, she baby-wore until her little one got too much for her bad back, we share our religious beliefs (we met at church), our views on discipline are very similar (and finding GD types in this area isn't an every-day occurance!), and their children seem to be very loving, with healthy attachments, even though she's never actually labeled herself "AP".

Well, she found out she was pg again just before my littlest one was born last Dec., so I hooked her up with my midwife, etc.....then a couple months ago, we were talking, and my dd was going through a rough spot of sleep, and I mentioned how drained I was.....and she dropped the Babywise bombshell!









Ohmigosh, I was sooooo shocked, I didn't really have a clue how to react/what to say!! It was absolutely the last thing I would have expected from her.....she told me how she'd used it with her other 3 boys, and it was awesome, wonderful,







and I think I prolly just sat there with a blank look, and I dunno HOW I got home, because I remember nothing after that conversation!







:

The weirdest thing was trying to wrap my mind around how she could be GD but also an Ezzoite, yk?







Then I discovered that her mother (who lives here, and they are very close) was not only an Ezzo fan when she raised her children, but that she is currently TEACHING the GKGW "curriculum" at our local Crisis Pregnancy Center!! (which I used to support, and now I feel truly ill!)

So, this runs deeeeep.....and I have NO CLUE where to go from here! I still love my friend, even though my brain is reeling, saying "Does. Not. Compute. Error. Error."

I love her, I don't want to lose this friendship, I want to be there for her, I know she loves her kids and wants only the very best from them. I almost feel like, because of her mother (whom I have met, and she is altogether a likeable, lovely lady), she may be almost brainwashed about Ezzo, and I fear that there is NO WAY that I can hope to change her mind, or convince her to try a new approach.

But her sweet little boy was born Friday morning, and tonight we took them dinner, and got to see him for the first time. Oh, he was so sweet, and she is doing her best to breastfeed him as long as possible, but as she sat there nursing him, she mentioned that no one had gotten much sleep since he was born, but that "We are gonna start getting him onto a good schedule soon, and it shouldn't take too long before he's STTN!"

And I was again speechless (and dh made a choking sound, that he had to disguise as a cough!).

I just don't know what to do....or if I should just do nothing.







I *know* all the reasons that this is wrong, esp. for a woman who is facing BF challenges (besides the PCOS, she has also had 2 breast surgeries). And the BF relationship is just the merest tip of the iceberg! (but no need for me to preach to the choir here!







)

I dunno what I'm looking for here. Maybe a reality check....is there anything that I *could* do, anything that she might hear? Or if not, how do I deal with knowing that someone I love is so determined to do something that seems so despicable to me?

Sigh....


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

to me, no. I couldn't look past the Ezzo following. Its a conflict of values.







I have friends who use modified ferber. ITs hard for me to look past that and it isn't even anywhere near ezzo. How does she babywear/gd if she's an ezzo follower? maybe she just cio's? not like schedules feedings, smacks, leaves teh babies to "self soothe" all day ect. Maybe clear it up. If she 'just' (not minimizing cio) uses cio then maybe I could look past it. sorry mama. Thats rough.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Babywearing + Ezzoite = Does not compute, for me too.

Unfortunatly I don't have any real advice. I've only met one real live Ezzo follower and she was my mom's aquantence from work.

Does your friend, who wants to form healthy attachments with her children, know that Ezzo's children have cut off all contact with him?


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## finn74 (Aug 24, 2008)

at first i thought you meant a doll, like some sort of sleep elmo...uh, whats ezzo?


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

Wow, as a mom with IGT, I don't get that. I've operated under the assumption that scheduled feedings would have turned our low-supply nursing relationship into NO-supply pretty quickly. And that DD would have gotten pretty bad pretty quickly if I hadn't nursed round the clock those first few months (well, afterwards too, but then with supplement)... Would she be willing to nurse more freely and step away from Ezzo if it would help her milk supply? I don't have any proof that it would, but mightn't it??


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## FREEmom1120 (Feb 23, 2008)

Btdt. It saddens me to think about what their kids have to go through. But I can't in good conscience limit my friendships to only people who do everything the way I do. People have a lot of value to add to a relationship beyond what they think on one or two issues.

If it were me I would just tell her next time it comes up "thank you for the recommendation, but I just can't do xx."

My primary reason I give is that I have a bodily response to my daughter's cries and that can't be an accident so I always respond to them, because for me that is the truth. Even though I know all the other info about why CIO is detrimental, that is not why I don't do it. I don't do it because my body tells me not to.








It's a tough situation. I hope you can find a good solution.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *finn74* 
at first i thought you meant a doll, like some sort of sleep elmo...uh, whats ezzo?

www.Ezzo.info


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I agree to find out how much of it she does. Maybe she stretches feeds with a dummy? Maybe she doesn't even schedule feeds until she's weaned them. maybe instead of CIO she does hands on settling.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Babywearing + Ezzoite = Does not compute, for me too.

Babywearing is just mechanics and convenience.

Quote:

But I can't in good conscience limit my friendships to only people who do everything the way I do. People have a lot of value to add to a relationship beyond what they think on one or two issues.
I agree if you're talking about other things in life, like cheating on their husband, or embezzling work money. But torturing babies, violence to other people, anything like that are not acceptible to me. I have cut someone off for it, and it took several confirmations that what she was doing was so extreme and horrifying - way beyond CIO.


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## finn74 (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
www.Ezzo.info


AGHH!!!!!!! just read it, oh man! its (all the words i'm not allowed to use on this forum)!
thanks MusicianDad for the link. now i gotta go burn that info out of my memory...


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

Best I can tell (and I'm sorta too scared to ask) she does "scheduled" sleep (ie, CIO) from a very early age (she's already talking about starting it soon with her 4 day old) and she does the feed/play/sleep routine that Ezzo suggests in the book (NO nursing/rocking to sleep, ever, is what Ezzo says, dunno how rigid she is on that).

It almost feels like she is wonderful amazing AP mommy by day, but Ezzo mom by night...







It's just so bizarre, it just. doesn't. fit. with everything else I know about her! Which is why it felt a bit like a lightbulb moment when I realized that her mom teaches the stuff. uke

And I was once party to a conversation between her and her mother, about her low supply with her other babies....her mom was telling her she should get her breastmilk tested, that maybe it just wasn't rich enough, and that she (the mom) knew a place where she could send off a sample....etc. I didn't say a whole lot at the time (this was before I knew about the Ezzo factor with them), I just figured the mom was a victim of the bad lactational advice that so many women of that generation recieved, and all I said was that I'd read a study that compared the nutritional value of BM from well-nourished moms and from under-nourished, poverty stricken (3rd world) moms, and they were practically identical. I said logically, that made sense to me, because you don't go around wondering if the milk from one cow is better for you than the milk from another cow--milk is obviously species-specific, but within the species, milk is milk, yk?

Anyway, all that really makes me think that maybe she just has a blind spot WRT Ezzo, because she was raised that way, her mom believes it so strongly, and since it "worked" with her others, it must be right, yk?







And I'm afraid that she won't even ask for help, since the Ezzo book paints LLL and LCs in SUCH a bad light!







:









And I think about that poor baby, so new to the world, and in just a few days he will learn such an important lesson which will surely stay with him all his life--that he cannot trust those around him, because when he cries out at night in hunger and loneliness, no one will come to him. And it breaks my heart, but I dunno what to do.....I'm afraid that telling my friend that she's wrong won't change her mind, and it will just damage our friendship, probably beyond repair. And how will that help this baby?

If I ignore the Ezzo factor for now, then maybe at least she will trust me enough to come to me for advice if (when!) her supply starts to dip. Maybe that's the best I can hope to do....







Or maybe by being patient and compassionate, and trying to be understanding, maybe she'll see my example and it will stick with her? Of course that doesn't help this tiny little baby right now, though.







Then again, alienating my friend by going off on her or cutting ties with her won't help this baby, and might only serve to reinforce the Ezzo doctrine that AP/LLL/LCs (and pretty much anyone who does anything different than what he espouses







) are evil.

I just don't know what to do....I actually dreamed about this....I woke up early this morning, and dh had gone for a jog, so I put dd (almost 9 months) in the crib and I went into the living room to read....I turned on the monitor, but ended up dozing back off and I was dreaming about that poor baby crying his heart out, when suddenly I startled awake and realized it was MY baby who was screaming! She'd woken up but my brain incorporated her crying into my dream! I felt so bad--I ran to get her, and she just clutched at me, trembling, and wouldn't let go. Her heart was pounding, and her whole body, every muscle was clenched in terror that I hadn't been where I was supposed to be! I suspect that she will be clinging to me all day, which is fine by me!







All that from just a few minutes of crying...I can't begin to imagine how terrifying it must be nght after night after night.

Oh my gosh. I just can't deal.

Dh thinks that I should try to be patient and longsuffering, to just very gently explain what we do, how we cope when the opportunity arises, and try not to get angry or overwhelmed thinking about it. Basically, don't offer advice/opinions until I'm asked. He thinks I'm much more likely to do some good that way, than by taking a stand and burning bridges, kwim? He says we have to take people where they are, and love them how they are. I know he's right, but it is so hard. He thinks maybe taking it from a lactational POV will be most effective, because she really wants to nurse and not have to supplement, and since this will be her last baby, she is feeling the importance of that even more, yk? I don't know I don't know I JUST don't know.







:

Did I mention I love this woman? I truly do....I care for her so deeply...otherwise, that first mention of Babywise prolly would have done us in! I adore her family--her dh is like a brother to me, and her kids are so sweet and funny. I guess I have to face that although I feel such great urgency to tell her how WRONG this is, I have to realize that it would be ineffective and damaging to do so at this moment. I have to be patient.

I have never ever used so many







smilies in a single post.

Thank you everyone for your insight and kind words! I know that I do need to ask for details, find out what she does and how far she takes it....but like I said, I'm a bit scared to ask, since i've actually read the book (and the "tamer" version "babywise", not GKGW!!) and it is horrifying!

Please, if you are inclined, send out some prayers/good vibes for this baby and for his mama! And for me.....


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## yogafeet (Jul 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *finn74* 
AGHH!!!!!!! just read it, oh man! its (all the words i'm not allowed to use on this forum)!
thanks MusicianDad for the link. now i gotta go burn that info out of my memory...









:







:







:


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## CalBearMama (Sep 23, 2005)

I have a really hard time stopping myself from providing people with information when something they are doing really freaks me out. In fact, I had a similar situation arise with my SIL, who insisted on scheduling her baby's feedings virtually from the beginning, and then wondered why her milk supply wasn't adequate (her baby was a 35-week preemie, so it made me especially crazy that they were refusing to feed the kid more often than every three hours).

My SIL actually asked me for advice on how to increase her milk supply, so I told her that I thought scheduled feedings were at least part of the problem, and I gave her some concrete suggestions about how to make it easier to nurse on demand. She seemed appreciative and later said my advice was helping, but then the next time we visited, it was clear they were still rigidly scheduling. The mistake I made was in not letting it go at that point - instead, I sent her an e-mail with lots of detailed information about why scheduling is bad for the milk supply, the AAP's position that babies should be fed on demand, etc. I actually consider myself lucky that we still have a decent relationship now, because she was honest enough to call me up after receiving the e-mail and tell me that she felt like I was being too pushy and was trying too hard to make her parent the way I do (and I know she thinks some of the things I do are pretty out-there, so that's not a compliment). We talked about our feelings for a bit, and I told her that all I wanted was to help her get what she said she wanted (to be able to breastfeed without supplementing, pumping, etc.), but that I was sorry if I had crossed the line. (Where is that magic line between "helping" and "butting in" anyway?)

Anyway, having learned from the experience, I still try to provide people with information that I think will help them, but I try to be sort of impersonal about it. In your situation, I would probably tell my friend something along these lines: "Our conversation about Babywise really got me thinking, and I wanted to learn more about it, so I started doing some reading. And I was so surprised what I found! There's actually a lot of information out there saying that scheduling feedings can be responsible for low milk supply, and that women who have supply problems should focus first on getting their milk supply established and not try to get the baby on a schedule until later, after things are going well. So maybe you could have more success with breastfeeding this time if you hold off on scheduling for a while! Wouldn't that be great?!"

Your friend's reaction to your "discovery" of the possible cause of her low supply might then determine whether you do anything else, such as provide her with written information, etc. And it might also determine whether you feel like you can continue to be friends with her, regardless of whether she ends up doing what you would like her to do or not. (In my case, I found that my relationship with my SIL was pleasant again after she gave up on breastfeeding, and after the baby was a little older and was doing "fine" on scheduled formula feedings. There are still lots of little things about SIL/BIL's parenting that bug me, but I try not to let it get in the way of our relationship, because I feel like as a family, we benefit from having them in our lives.)


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## echoecho1528 (Jul 29, 2008)

In my experience, it is very difficult to continue a relationship with others who parent in such a parent led fashion. It is devastating and breaks my heart to know what their kids are going through.
However, I think that if the relationship is a good one and you would like to continue with it, I would only caution to never leave your children with her for any amount of time. I unfortunately made that mistake when my daughter was 5.5 months old. I left her with my SIL over night (I will never leave her overnight again!) and when I came back, she had her on a strict 4 hour eat/play/sleep schedule! It was completely against my instructions to offer her EBM when she seems hungry and hold/rock etc. until she falls asleep on you. She pretty much turned my baby's life upside down. We are still working on getting her back to her normal self after a month of being with her constantly







. I feel incredibly guilty about it and will never do such a think again with her or any subsequent DC.
Keep your friend at least an arms reach away.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Clearly, she's only had kids who naturally fell into schedules. I'd pray that this kid's the same way and only break off from her if you find out she's letting her baby scream.

Wait, she's at risk for low-supply and is going to do scheduled feedings??

How long did she breastfeed her older kids? Is she happy with how that worked out?


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

There is an article-- I think on Salon.com-- about babywise. If I remember correctly, it has been listed by a Christian cult-watch organization as having cult-like tendencies. Maybe your friend just does not know? (I don't have time to find the link now, but I originally followed the link in a thread here)

If I were you-- since you really love this friend-- I would sit down with her and lovingly, gently say that you were surprised to hear she "did" Babywise, because all that *you* know of babywise is that it is cult-like and often produces sad little babies and poor/non-existent bfing relationships. I would focus on the supply issues, as that seems to be the only way that babywise has noticeably harmed her children.

I know that I parent in ways that my friends disapprove of (taking baby everywhere, extended bfing and rear-facing, not Cio, etc), and even though I know I would have to disagree with them if they brought it up, I almost feel like our friendship is weaker for the silence. I'd prefer it be out in the open, you know?

Also, slightly off your topic, I would write a strongly worded leter to the pregnancy center. As though women in difficult circumstances need *more* to complicate their lives... ugh.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

I think I would have to talk to her about it. Just kindly give her your version of AP/sleep/bfing. And point her to the AAP position on Ezzo and FTT as well as the Kellymom info on nursing on demand and supply (printed out, so she doesn't have to do anything but look at it). Doing it at 6 months, maybe I could look the other way, but I could not be silent on it when there's a newborn's well being at stake.

I'm so sad for them - how awful.

I would do it in a supportive way, not jugemental, though, because I think that is more effective.

We have neighbors who did Ezzo with their now 3 year old. I heard that early on (I was walking DD in a stroller in the evening to get her to sleep). I told her we were doing pretty much the anti-Ezzo and she said "Dr. Sear's" in a sarcastic way. I just smiled and said "exactly!" We say hi, but there will be no friendship there...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Babywearing is just mechanics and convenience.











I think there's more to babywearing then just mechanics and convenience...

Either way, Ezzo tells parents that holding/carrying you baby creates a dependent manipulative infant. We all know that's not the case.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 









I think there's more to babywearing then just mechanics and convenience...

Either way, Ezzo tells parents that holding/carrying you baby creates a dependent manipulative infant. We all know that's not the case.
















who would fall for this stuff anyway?

I have a ezzo "friend" and she flat out told me she does it b/c she doenst like babies and its easier.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 














who would fall for this stuff anyway?

I have a ezzo "friend" and she flat out told me she does it b/c she doenst like babies and its easier.

If she doesn't like babies why did she have them? So many other options out there.

You know, I didn't even realize that babywearing wasn't the norm till I was like, 21 and I live in rather large city.

Got offered an Ezzo book since we have a new baby coming. Told the giver "Thanks for the toilet paper".


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## Shazer (Oct 6, 2006)

My best friend does everything AP, except when her kiddos are 12-14 months old, she lets them CIO.

My SIL is moderately, yet will eventually let her kiddos CIO.

This is the norm in our culture.

Both women are very important to me, and both know my feelings on CIO. It hasn't changed their behaviors and I haven't allowed it to change our relationship because there are so many other factors to consider. I've told them my opinions and offered information. That is the best I can do.

Maybe you should give your friend info in a gentle way.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Clearly, she's only had kids who naturally fell into schedules. I'd pray that this kid's the same way and only break off from her if you find out she's letting her baby scream.

Wait, she's at risk for low-supply and is going to do scheduled feedings??

How long did she breastfeed her older kids? Is she happy with how that worked out?

yeah, do you know that she actually lets them scream themselves to sleep? maybe they're just easygoing kids, and so she says it's ezzo but in fact has never had to really, truly do the method he espouses, KWIM?

it doesn't make sense that she'd let a newborn CIO with everything else you've said about her. some young babies DO sleep through the night. mine regularly slept 5-8 hour stretches at a month of age.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If she doesn't like babies why did she have them? So many other options out there.

You know, I didn't even realize that babywearing wasn't the norm till I was like, 21 and I live in rather large city.

Got offered an Ezzo book since we have a new baby coming. Told the giver "Thanks for the toilet paper".

she does it for the older children the babies turn into. She's pregnant again. Totally planned and they have been trying for a year.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
yeah, do you know that she actually lets them scream themselves to sleep? maybe they're just easygoing kids, and so she says it's ezzo but in fact has never had to really, truly do the method he espouses, KWIM?

it doesn't make sense that she'd let a newborn CIO with everything else you've said about her. some young babies DO sleep through the night. mine regularly slept 5-8 hour stretches at a month of age.

ditto. My friends are huge advocates of the "put your baby down and leave" method. But their baby is SO easy going. Seriously. she never cries. And she doesn't cry herself to sleep. She just goes to sleep. The *few* (3maybe?) times I have seen her cry you bet they jumped up and freaked out about it. I highly doubt they leave her to cio based on that.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies (might go back and do that now), but I just wanted to suggest the book Sleepless In America by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It has a great section about how she explains to her students (she teaches parents how to deal w/sleep problems) that she has to put an elderly grandparent in a nursing home. She talks about thess (fake) brochures where one home will respond to the patients' needs with compassion at any time of the day or night. The other one will ignore requests/crying/needs during the night. Patients will sleep in their own vomit, etc, etc. You get the idea. It is a very good and rational argument against CIO, scheduling, and it NEVER attacks a particular "brand" of parenting style, the way Sears and LLL might mention some by name. I don't know if you could somehow photocopy this section of the book and give it to her, or email part of it, I dunno.

My other idea was to invite her to LLL again.

Also, maybe you could talk to her about being "prepared" for BFing to go smoothly and print off some good, neutral, reliable sources on how babes need to be fed on demand, never scheduled, no pacis, etc??

BTW, I am thinking that you should focus on *positive* information - DO xyz (feed on demand, respond to cues, hold/rock/nurse to sleep, nurse till babe releases, etc) and NOT on the DON'TS. I would not point the finger at anything that you are _guessing_ that she does (because you are not in the home so you really don't know for sure). People get really defensive and want to justify their choices, whereas if you say xyz is recommended for good milk supply, then they might just give it a try, kwim?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
she does it for the older children the babies turn into. She's pregnant again. Totally planned and they have been trying for a year.









You should teach her the word adoption. LOL then you can skip the baby phase.


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## hera4069 (Sep 10, 2008)

This is my first time posting...I have 3 kids..a son who will be 8 in Oct., another son who will be 4 in Oct. and a 6 week old daughter. I try to respond ASAP when they are babies quickly..My 4 year old had HORRIBLE colic and cried from 9 to 12 every evening until he was 3 months old.

My daughter has just got over a head cold and it wore me out. I was constantly worried about her breathing and was never able to get the boogers out of her nose with the suction bulb. My husband helped me trying to get us both sleep, by taking turns staying up with her, but last night (husband had to go to work this morning) I got so tired that I just let her cry because I didn't know what to do to help her (she wasn't hungry, wet, poopy, and couldn't get the snot in her nose) Would this be considered the Ezzo? It isn't my intention to ignore her but I don't know what else to do!







She did end up spitting up some and pooping in the process and after getting her cleaned up I SUCCESSFULLY (first time doing so) used the bulb to get two big piles of snot out of her nose...she then nursed for a few seconds and quickly fell to sleep.

I am not as bad as Ezzo am I? I also have co-slept with all of my babies and nursed them until 2.5 years. I also have recently started to use my placenta (encapsulated) to try to give me more energy and help battle PPD.

Colette


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

*Donning flameproof suit*

I can see how scheduling your baby's naps, sleep and feeds can be mighty tempting when you have other children and their schedules to consider.

But, still, Ezzo? Yuck.

I'm considering trying a loose schedule with my newest little one, and my husband agrees. Get up, Eat, Play, Eat, Nap. Later may evolve to Get up, eat, play, eat, play more, eat, nap. But if baby is hungry--eat. If sleepy--nap. If neither--playtime (unless it is middle of the night, then gently encouraged to go to sleep or daddy can get out of bed and entertain baby--he does not have to report to an office the next day)


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I would give her the studies showing how CIO causes damage to the child.


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

Honestly, my best friend and I don't agree on much re: how to raise a baby/toddler but we agree to disagree. I do tell her my opinion ONE TIME ONLY when a new topic comes up (like when she found out she was having a boy and she planned to (and later, did) circ). She's not as extreme as Ezzo but it doesn't sound like your friend is either. Sometimes agreeing to disagree is all you can do, you know?


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## medaroge (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
Its a conflict of values. .

I agree. shower her with support of non-ezzo methods, printouts, etc.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I wouldn't let something like a friend scheduling a baby (as much as I disagree with it) get in the way of our relationship. I would offer information from www.ezzo.info and breastfeeding support if issues arose, but I would leave it at that.


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## ilovebabies (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
*Donning flameproof suit*

I can see how scheduling your baby's naps, sleep and feeds can be mighty tempting when you have other children and their schedules to consider.

But, still, Ezzo? Yuck.

I'm considering trying a loose schedule with my newest little one, and my husband agrees. Get up, Eat, Play, Eat, Nap. Later may evolve to Get up, eat, play, eat, play more, eat, nap. But if baby is hungry--eat. If sleepy--nap. If neither--playtime (unless it is middle of the night, then gently encouraged to go to sleep or daddy can get out of bed and entertain baby--he does not have to report to an office the next day)

It doesn't sound like you are being a strict scheduler at all. I think there's a big difference between instisting on a strict schedule and having a basic "routine". Very different, IMO.

I remember when our church used to have the class based on the Ezzo's book (thank God they don't anymore!) and we didn't have a clue who they were so we went to the class because it sounded good and we were newer parents. We went to one or two weeks and never went back. It didn't sit well with us at all and we were young and mainstream!!


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## babymaggie (Nov 11, 2007)

When Noah was a couple of months old and we were having so much trouble with his nightwakings (which have only just started to improve at 19 months, lol), a couple at church told us about this great program that they used with all three of their kids. You guessed it -- it was Babywise. I had never heard about it back then but knew enough about so-called sleep training programs to ask if it involved CIO. Once they said yes, I immediately told them I don't believe in that.

Months later after having discovered MDC and what Ezzo really is all about, I can't look at those three children without thinking what they went through as babies. It breaks my heart.

I am the crunchiest person I know IRL and the only one who doesn't do CIO. Even my sister does it. I love my sis but totally disagree with her parenting style. It just bugs me. I think that if I were in your position OP, I would not be able to continue a friendship with someone who followed Ezzo. Try giving her info -- like what is on the site -- and if she insists on following it then you just have to go with your heart and do what you think is right.


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

OP here!









Thank you so much, everyone, for responding! I really appreciate it, and I am once again blown away by what a supportive and loving place this is.....honestly, I think I half-expected most posters to tell me she was evil, and that if I didn't immediately cut her off, I must be evil too!







I should have known better....I've been registered at MDC for over 5 years (lurked for a couple years before that!) and if I've learned anything it is that people here don't have much use for pointless rigidity.

And this is one situation where it's not just black and white.....it's more complex than that, and there isn't a OSFA answer.

So, I appreciate the honesty, the insight, and the compassion with which you all have answered my question. It has helped, has given me new perspective and new ideas/tools in addressing this issue with my friend. It's also been such a relief to get it off my chest, not so much in a venting way, but just that my heart was broken and I didn't know where to turn.

But I think that I *can* address this issue with my friend, and that I can do it in a way that will preserve--possibly even strengthen--our friendship.

I have decided that I won't do anything right now. That is a hard decision, because part of me feels like I am obligated to "rescue" that baby from even one night of senseless sorrow. But I'm smart enough to see that bringing it up now would not spare him that, it would just be attacking my friend at a time when she is quite vulnerable! I can't do that to her....I couldn't do that to any newly post-partum mom.

So, I feel that I need to wait (and pray!) and find a time when I can lovingly address it in a way that won't punish her for past decisions or accuse her, but gently try to open her mind and heart to a different perspective.

In the meantime, I still hate to think of that sweet tiny boy crying for his mama. So if any of you are inclined, please pray with me, that God would gently soften my friend's heart towards her son, and open her ears to his cries...make her unable to resist mothering him in the way that he needs every minute....make her find the absolute joy in doing so!

That is my prayer for her....and I just hope that praying it will be enough to give me comfort, also!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I will.

Meanwhile, though, you can get on the case of the pregnancy crisis center. THEY aren't postpartum moms and should know better than to support that BS.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

OP: Praying for your friend and that sweet little baby. And for wisdom for you in this situation. It sounds like this family is so deeply entrenched in Ezzo that it will take a miracle to break free from it. But I believe in miracles.

Your friend deserves gentleness just like her children do. She is being the best mother that she knows how to be. Gentle Christian Mothers may be another good resource for you and your friend.


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## lisavark (Oct 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hera4069* 
...last night (husband had to go to work this morning) I got so tired that I just let her cry because I didn't know what to do to help her (she wasn't hungry, wet, poopy, and couldn't get the snot in her nose) Would this be considered the Ezzo? It isn't my intention to ignore her but I don't know what else to do!







She did end up spitting up some and pooping in the process and after getting her cleaned up I SUCCESSFULLY (first time doing so) used the bulb to get two big piles of snot out of her nose...she then nursed for a few seconds and quickly fell to sleep.

I am not as bad as Ezzo am I?

Colette

Colette, have you read _Babywise_? What you are doing is _nothing_ like Ezzo. Ezzo tells parents to refuse to feed hungry babies unless it's "time" to feed them (three hours after the last feeding--even for newborns!).







He says to leave newborns alone to cry in cribs. He also says to ignore them during tummy time so parents can have "couch time" and baby can see that parents are going to spend time with each other and ignore baby. And smack six-month-olds when they reach for something you think they "shouldn't" touch. All sorts of horrible things. Holding a baby or being near her while she cries because there's nothing more you can do to comfort her is not at all the same thing. Especially if you're staying close to her or holding her while she cries. We can't always fix everything for our babies; we can't make everything perfect for them. That's okay. We AP'ers just try to be there for them when they need us, even if we can't fix it.

Anyway, I know it's a little OT, but I just had to respond to that!







Oh, and congratulations on your new baby, Colette!

OP, I teared up as I read your prayer for your friend.







Definitely joining you in that prayer!


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## JoyfulMom84 (Apr 22, 2008)

aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh. Okay whenever babywise comes up I just have to let that out! :0P

I dont' know what to say of suggest, as I recently found myself in a similar situation. We had friends who had a DS the end of June and when we went to meet him I asked her how breastfeeding was going. She was supplimenting (ARRRRRGH!) because it was easier than breastfeeding. Well her mother pipes up about babywise and how great it is. DH and I _tried_ not to jump all over ourselves, as babywise is some thing that really really annoys us.

For me the thing that makes the "sleeping system" so awful is the breastfeeding advice (obviously among other things, but still)... There are enough MIL's out there giving bad and outdated advice to new and clueless parents, no need to have it reinforced millions of times over.

Anyway, I think this couple got annoyed with us...And were OBVIOUSLY bad examples of non-babywise parenting as DD (then 6mos) was "still" not sleeping through the night. BUT I was and have been successful with breastfeeding, and her milk supply did not survive.

I guess to each their own, and unfortunately every parent who uses any one parenting philosophy with out doing their homework, keeping joy present, and ditching what isn't working for the specific situations, will lose out in the end.

All I can think to recommend is to offer your friend "the womanly art of breastfeeding" (as it advocates feeding on demand) and offer your support in that area. IMHO she would probably be able EBF just fine if she avoided PLF and got her LO attached to her breast as often as possible. I believe that even with physical issues it's GOd's will for women to breastfeed and if you have faith in your body you'll be successful to some extent!!

Just my take! :0)


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

first of all i would ask her if she has actually read the books.. b/c if not she may not actually follow ezzo.. if she has heard it by word of mouth i imagine most people dont run around bragging that they smack their babies around kwim? so she may not even know how bad it is. truthfully though if i were your friend i would want you to tell me exactly what you know about ezzo. look in the circ forum at how many moms say they wish they had known. i feel the same way about BFing and would give alot to be able to nurse again or even EP w/o supplementing. i would think it would work the same way for something like babywise ... there is a website from ex-ezzo families that is eye opening. also if its for religious reasons.. i think e was excommunicated.


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## RTT (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Got offered an Ezzo book since we have a new baby coming. Told the giver "Thanks for the toilet paper".


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## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

_On Being Babywise_ has been updated and no longer, as far as I know, advocates smacking six-month olds. It contains more reasonable (comparatively speaking) advice about starting a routine, a lot of lip service about meeting the needs of the parents and putting the marriage first.

I used a routine/schedule with my high-needs first-born. I also breastfed on demand, wore her constantly in a sling, and used a baby hammock in our bedroom, not a crib down the hall. Make sure you know what parts of Babywise your friend is following before you decide to have an emotional breakup over her parenting practices. I'm sure that I horrified both the AP parents and the strict schedulers in our parenting group, but I had to meet the needs of everyone in the family, especially our colicky little one.


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## jessejo28 (Sep 18, 2008)

If you really feel that strongly, then I think I would say something to her even if it risks the friendship. If you are a true friend you have to speak up. You surely don;t sound as though you would say it in a demeaning manner, like everyone says you can flood her with info. If she was going to jump off a bridge and telling her not to do it would make her mad at you, you would still tell her. At least you would then know that your tried your best for that baby's sake. That's what I would do, but I know it would be difficult if it was my best friend.


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## lindsayjean (Jun 17, 2006)

Oh man... I hear ya! Have not read the responses, but wanted to chime in . My Sister in law (husband's sister) has a dd 20 days older than mine and luckily they live far away because she is a die hard EZZO follower. She breastfed up to a year at least and cloth diapers and wore her baby a little bit.... but when they were both infants it was SO HARD because I always felt like they thought I was so horrible for picking up DD when she'd cry or rocking her to sleep. Give me a break!!

Now that they are toddlers it isn't as difficult for us, but when they were infants.... oh man, it was very hard to not get super frustrated with her. Luckily they live 7 hours away....


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## ~Denise~ (Dec 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalBearMama* 
I would probably tell my friend something along these lines: "Our conversation about Babywise really got me thinking, and I wanted to learn more about it, so I started doing some reading. And I was so surprised what I found! There's actually a lot of information out there saying that scheduling feedings can be responsible for low milk supply, and that women who have supply problems should focus first on getting their milk supply established and not try to get the baby on a schedule until later, after things are going well. So maybe you could have more success with breastfeeding this time if you hold off on scheduling for a while! Wouldn't that be great?!"









:

...and if you can bring an old edition from the library, and show her some things you bookmarked, you can do this as a discovery process together, not as one person telling the other she is wrong. I'm praying that God will give you guidance. I believe he puts us in relationship with others so we can help each other in situations like this!


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## smileygirl6025 (Jan 7, 2005)

I haven't read Ezzo personally but it sounds pretty scary and looks at babies as being evil and manipulative and that need to be trained from day 1 with a regimented schedule.

However I would try to be more gentle with your friend especially since you seem to have a lot of common ground. I would try to be supportive. It has to be tough being a mom to four boys, homeschooling and not getting sleep at night. Maybe suggest from your experience that babies do wake up and if she kept her little one right next to her in a bassinet, cosleeper or in bed that she would be able to nurse (and keep her supply up) she likely wouldn't have a crying baby as you can get them nursing by responding to those early feeding cues and then you can actually get some sleep. I would try to look at what she is doing right like trying to breastfeed and would point to the points where she is doing a good job before trying to offer constructive criticism.

Also realize that you might not get anywhere. I tried to encourage my sisters in attachment parenting and my mom was really very ap as well. One of my sisters was planning to breastfeed but then her jerk of a husband didn't want her to so she never even tried and then they had some sort of bottle prop where their daughter would be left to "feed herself" even as a newborn. It was disgusting to hear about my niece being constantly in a car seat and not even held for feeding and let to cry for hours. Now she is 2 and while technically fine, she is very bratty, hmm wonder why.

gotta run after my exploring toddler

Mary


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## Prairiemother (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bird Girl* 
_On Being Babywise_ has been updated and no longer, as far as I know, advocates smacking six-month olds. It .

OMG I had no idea it was as bad as that!!! I haven't read the book because it would make me livid, no doubt. I'm sorry, I haven't been able to read the last few posts as babe needs to go to bed! but I wanted to recommend the book "Our Babies, Ourselves". I can't recall the author and don't have time to google - but it is a book I read when I had my first baby and it was profoundly moving in the way it explained the world from a baby's point of view. It really draws the reader into the agony that a baby experiences when not attended. If you can find a copy, have a look and see if that offers anything to you. I'm in a similar situation to the OP here - I have a friend whom I admired for her naturally generous AP style. She has been given Babywise tho and encouraged by church members to follow it. I sure hope she doesn't. I didn't know it was so hands-off. Sad. More than sad, but I'll stop here.

Wanted to add: went to visit non AP grandmother when first babe was 6 months old, grandmother was so proud of me for not 'spoiling her' - she prounounced my daughter the happiest baby she'd ever seen. Of course, grandma did not know that we co-slept, babywore and never let babe cry at all if we could possibly help it.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medaroge* 
I agree. shower her with support of non-ezzo methods, printouts, etc.


Honestly, this is what I would rec. NOT doing.
No one wants reams of paper being shoved at them. Very unappealing, and will likely NOT make her change her mind.
I'd talk to her about the effects on milk supply, and so on. The good points. And not in a "You MUST do this or you are EBUL!" b/c, again, likely to turn a person off!


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