# Anti-obesity PSAs



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Do you think these will do any good? If they do help, then maybe it isn't a waste of money, but seriously, will they help? They feature close ups of fat body parts that people have lost as they've taken up healthier habits.
_"The message to eat healthier and be more active is good, but to set it up in a way that makes overweight people look disgusting is highly insensitive, stigmatizing and not necessary," says Kelly Brownell, director of the Yale Center for Eating and Weight Disorders._ http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ads-usat_x.htm

I'm obese. I'm not offended by the fat is ugly concept. I'm resigned to it. I accept it as my fate. I heard it from my mom for years. "You're disgusting, I'm ashamed to be seen in public with you, no boy will ever want to date you." She said she was trying to inspire us and make us angry enough to prove her wrong. It didn't work. Now why she didn't look into nutrition and buy healthier foods, or take us outside for walks, I don't know. I feel like these ads are trying to achieve something through similar means. If the government really wanted to do something about childhood obesity and rising obesity rates, why not take aim at all the junk food ads marketed to kids?

I think the thing that offends me is that these ads suggest that you will lose weight if you eat vegetables and exercise. Don't they have to have a results not typical disclaimer at the bottom. I'm not saying it's impossible to lose a lot of weight, I'm just saying eating healthier and exercising moderately are not going to do it for most obese people. I've lost some weight that way, but not enough to get me out of the overweight category.

The Deparment of H&HS has the small steps website and a list of 100 small steps to get started. http://www.smallstep.gov/text/sm_ste...eps_index.html Some of them are good, but some are kind of ludicrous. Choose a checkout counter without a candy aisle. I wonder how thin I could be if I had been checking out in aisles without candy all these years.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

Some of the ads are surreal. In one TV ad, boys playing on a beach discover a human belly; in another, shoppers find a double chin in a grocery store. Several print ads focus on close-up shots of heavy stomachs, thighs and buttocks and show how they might slim down as their owners get more active.

A bit much, I'd say. Obesity is a very serious problem in this country, and I can understand how frustrating it must be for some people to see others destroying their health, but I think these ads will probably provoke insensitive thin people to laugh at the obese, rather than encourage the obese to lose weight.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

i don't like the approach. if they want to make ads, they should make ads pointing out the disgusting crap being marketed to americans as "food".

but then, food manufacturers have a lobby, and "love handles" don't.

ugh.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

If the government really wanted to do something about childhood obesity and rising obesity rates, why not take aim at all the junk food ads marketed to kids?
ITA. What a shame, those ads.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

Amywillow







sorry you're mom said those awful things to you.

A persons health is their own responsibility the government trying to do anything is pointless and a waste of tax dollars. THe majority of the people in this country know that fruits and veggies are good for you McD's isn't.


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## Marlena (Jul 19, 2002)

Quote:

the government trying to do anything is pointless and a waste of tax dollars. THe majority of the people in this country know that fruits and veggies are good for you McD's isn't.
Are you sure about that? Take a look around you. Look at what people eat. Look at what the government subsidizes with our tax dollars. Then consider whether some well-crafted opposing information and actions may in fact be useful.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

Just because the government subsidizes it doesn't mean you have to eat. Think of it as a boycott. The government has been teaching nutrition in the public school for years. I can remember it from grade school and that was 30 years ago. See what happens when you rely on the government. We need to take responsibility for educating ourselves and our children, that is the only way change will take place.

People choose what they want to eat because it tastes good. I've educated myself on nutrition and I still eat chocolate cake with lots of frosting.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*A persons health is their own responsibility the government trying to do anything is pointless and a waste of tax dollars.*
So are you saying that you are willing to foot your own medical bills?

It most certainly is the government's responsibility when it comes to health care dollars. There's no way this country is ever going to be able to afford universal health care, let alone do something about spiralling health plan premiums, if people don't start taking better care of themselves.

We all knew smoking was bad, but it took alot of campaigning to get that message across. Who would have believed 20 years ago that there are whole cities where you cannot smoke in bars, restaurants, or other public places?

PS - I just saw one of those ads yesterday and think they are stupid. The public needs to be educated as if they had a brain in their heads, not treated to a dumbed-down scare-tactic campaign.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

I do pay for my own health insurance and medical bills and it cost the rest of us for others poor choices health wise.

I still think no matter how much people are educated they still will make their own choices right or wrong. My mom still smokes and she knows all the risks.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

This is really awful. As if overweight people aren't already stigmatized enough. And yes, everyone knows that veggies are fruits are better for you than McD's. You'd have to be an idiot not to.

As for insurance, I'd be happy to pay for treatment for problems that have been caused by mylifestyle choices. But you'd have to prove it first, and that would be tough. There are plenty of skinny people with heart problems, high cholesterol, etc. Personally, I think more health problems in the US are caused by stress and environmental toxins than anything else. So are we going to start seeing PSAs stigmatizing people who create unnecessary stress in their lives and surround themselves with toxic products? Not likely.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*Just because the government subsidizes it doesn't mean you have to eat. Think of it as a boycott. The government has been teaching nutrition in the public school for years. I can remember it from grade school and that was 30 years ago. See what happens when you rely on the government. We need to take responsibility for educating ourselves and our children, that is the only way change will take place.
*
Well, in an odd way I believe that is what the government is trying to do with these ads. They want people to take responsibility for themselves, to not try sue big food manufacturers. In fact, there is a bill to this effect: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/...9&congress=108

I have no problem with that, but when the government was desigining the food pyramid years ago and wanted to limit meat or milk, the beef and dairy councils took issue with that. So the government had to rework their wording of their dietary guidelines.

Public schools should not sell soda and fast food. How can the government exempt food manufacturers from lawsuits when those companies provide junk foods to a captive audience of children? Children watch commercials for the junk on Channel One in public school and the government cries personal responsibility?

And as far as that goes, formula use is linked to increased risk of obesity, but the government caved into pressure from the formula companies with the breastfeeding campaign.

The issue I have with these ads ultimately are that they are making stereotypical assessments of all overweight people: that we don't make healthy lifestyle choices like eating healthy foods and exercising, that we all have health problems and that if we just changed a few things in our lives, we would lose a lot of weight.

I don't need thin people to encourage me to lose weight. I already know I'm fat and there is really nothing that anyone can say that will change that (if someone wants to exercise with me, I'd like that). I've been fat since I was a child. I was put on amphetamine based diet pills when I was 9. I take responsibility for my weight and health now. I exercise regularly and have for years. I even walked in a marathon. I eat fruits and vegetables, avoid trans fatty acids, I don't drink soda very often, I don't eat fast food very often and I try to avoid caffeine. If it makes me thin one day, good. It hasn't yet, but I have seen definite improvements in my health over the past few years once I started exercising more than 3 times a week. The government website even says: _Research has shown that a person doesn't need to lose a massive amount of weight to see improvements in health. A modest loss of just 5 to 7 percent of body weight helps a lot._

I wish the government would do more to help the children. There are things it could do that would be a better use of the resources.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*It most certainly is the government's responsibility when it comes to health care dollars. There's no way this country is ever going to be able to afford universal health care, let alone do something about spiralling health plan premiums, if people don't start taking better care of themselves.*
There are things that people can do to improve their health. Exercise is one. I know a number of normal weight people who don't exercise, and I've heard comments made to the effect if a person is thin, s/he doesn't need to exercise. I think the benefits of regular exercise should definitely be promoted.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*the government trying to do anything is pointless and a waste of tax dollars.*
you are posting this on an internet invented by a government program and built with tax dollars.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

Blueviolet that is my point the majority of people know what is healthy for them. They chose to eat what they want.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

gardeningmom, it's not that simple.

issues of diet are so complex and so linked with many factors like cultural influences, psychological health, etc. As someone else said, people still smoke even though they know how harmful it is. changing one's lifestyle is NOT an easy thing to do.

I also totally agree with whoever said we need to focus on the children. Soda is....well, it's disgusting. I rarely ever touch the stuff. Water is delicious, nutritious and very thirst-quenching. For fun, I drink seltzer.

Here's my personal theory: adults end up gravitating towards the foods, textures, and eating habits they were raised with. While trends of good and bad eating will come and go throughout your life, you will tend to go back to what you were brought up with. My mother cooked everything and never bought processed food. I remember the first time I tried processed cheese, I was disgusted! And yet, where in any mainstream american restaurant can you get cheese on something that isn't processed cheese? When I walk through the aisles of most "mainstream" grocery stores I'm repulsed by most of what I see, and yet people just eat this stuff up.

So, my feeling is, give the kids a taste for what REAL, WHOLE food is like, and you're setting them up for healthy eating lifestyles in the end. To do that, parents need education and support. Two things sadly lacking.

And yeah, the food lobbying is quite disgusting too. Formula has been shown to increase risk of obesity but you won't see that mentioned. You won't see fast foods or processed foods being slammed by the government in their campaigns. Just continued stereotyping of obese people as stupid, fat, and lazy.

Blah!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*Blueviolet that is my point the majority of people know what is healthy for them. They chose to eat what they want.*
Fast food companies have made a fortune off of those who have little to no choice.

Poverty has a lot to do with what some perceive as choice.

Piglet68 is right, it is not that simple. Some folk have no choice but to drink foul water due to corporate pollution. Some folk have no choice but to eat irratiated foods due to no environmental standards for such things.

Some people have bad food choices due to what they can eat on government subsidized programs.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

The government has been teaching nutrition in the public school for years. I can remember it from grade school and that was 30 years ago. See what happens when you rely on the government. We need to take responsibility for educating ourselves and our children, that is the only way change will take place.
If, what you mean, is that we can't trust the government to give us good advice about health, then I totally agree. Why on earth should we trust an institution that looks the other way while beef just barely removed from dog-food quality is used in the school lunch program? An institution that came up with the food pyramid? An institution that's in the pocket of the dairy industry, the beef industry, the agri-businesses, the processed food industry?

To say that individuals are responsible for their own health-related choices is not the same as saying that we should also shoulder the cost of healthcare.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

"THe majority of the people in this country know that fruits and veggies are good for you McD's isn't"

Not true. It may seem obvious, but to many, many people it isn't. I've lived around them and watched them question my food choices because they felt healthy yet ate junk all the time.

Interestingly, this was the focus of my senior research thesis at the end of college. I had an internship in our cafeteria, and had free reign to put up signs and recipe/calorie information.

I chose two of the largest dorms on campus, with matched populations of freshman (and a few upperclassmen thrown in). We didn't require declarations of majors until Junior year, so that wasn't really a factor.

I did questionnaires based on my nutrition book, and gave it to all the residents of one of the dorms. It was a LONG questionnaire, but a lot of them actually answered it. It asked questions on weight, food intake, knowledge, exercise, and so on.

Over the course of the semester, I put up caloric information on the glass above the foods in the "hot" line. So they could see what they were taking in when they chose mac and cheese, turkey tetrazini, and so on. Also on the soups and other foods. I also posted signs with a "did you know" format:

Did you know that: one gram of fat requires 9 calories to burn off?

That kind of thing. The message changed weekly. It wasn't berating people, it was simply informing them, and if they then chose to compare it to the caloric info cards that was their choice.

At the end of the semester I put the same questionnaire out to the other dorm. I received approximately the same number of answered forms as at the beginning of the semester.

Lo and behold, those simple signs showed a statistically (and obvious) significant improvement in health knowledge and attitude. I was amazed. I didn't actually think such a simple thing would work.

So it's quite possible that a simple ad campaign could really affect a lot of people across the country in a positive way.

And the only reason it works is because many people don't know the real information to begin with.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

well heck what would all us fat people do that are wasting your "health care dollars" without the noble to teach us the "truth".








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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I think its crazy to market these ads to the "fat people" who need to "loose weight and then they'll be healthy". I know SO many people who eat horribly and are fine on the weight end of things. Of course who knows what's going to happen to them years later from eatting poorly? If they are truly trying to scare America into eatting better then they should focus on what happens (like heart attacks, high cholesterol, ect) not just "ewwww look at the fat people".

Loosing weight is SO hard. I always say it would be easier if I could just STOP eatting. That's how I quit smoking. Just STOPPED and didn't expose myself to cigarettes anymore. It was HARD, don't get me wrong (and I gained 50+ pounds quitting), but just *snap* turning around and eatting right? Much harder! You HAVE to eat.

I think these commericals are just going to put more shame on overweight people than anything else.

mollyeilis, what you did sounds awesome! Wish they could just do commercials like that. Just teach the facts.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think the adds are a good idea but that they are focusing on the wrong problem. being fit and eating healthy have nothing to do with the way you lok on the outside but more to do with all the partson the inside. I caught Oprah the other day and she had inernal organs. Arteries that were full of stuff, a tub of fat, an enlarged hear, cancerous lungs etc. . . .It was impactful. Show people what fat does to them on the inside, get past the beauty thing. Not everone is vein enough to care about a double chin or flabby thighs because htere are good people who look past those things. But just because you are accepted doesn't mean you are physically healthy. Am I making any sense?







: tell people why it is bad for thier bodies to be over heavy. It is strains us carrying around all that weight, the foods that make us overweight kill off our organs, the diseases of obesity are life ending. I am working hard to lose weight and am having slow but steady success. I really am not in it for the physical aspects (although those are a nice bonus) what I want is to get up and down the stairs without being winded, I want to feel good inside and I want to live a long healthy life.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*the majority of people know what is healthy for them.*
I don't agree with that. I know lots of people who think that crackers, simply because they're not sweet, are a healthy snack (white flour, hydrogenated oils...*not* healthy at all!). Some people think that if it's called yogurt, it must be good for you. Most of what's marketed to kids is so full of sugar and coloring that it might as well be candy. Parents see claims like "great source of calcium and vitamin c" on a box and automatically think "healthy". I think that part of the problem is that most Americans think the government truly has only our best interests in mind, and have forgotten how to think for themselves. You know, if the FDA has approved it, it must be o.k.







:


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I think that the idea is preposterous. Frankly some people cannot change the fact they are overweight. Bottom line. Be it hormonal, metabolic or illness related, they cannot lose it. They already have issues surrounding their weight. Anyone with a few extra pounds does. Especially in this country. Why, oh why, would you do a public service announcement about something that some peopl cannot alter?

I agree that people should be more active and eat better. But it is my body and my life and if I want to kill myself with burger and soda, then frankly, that is my right.

As for health insurance. Well, let me just say this. I am paying for other people's maternity care, yet I can't get pregnant. And no one else pays for my infertility. Soooo, I guess I see no difference. I am also paying for someone's lung cancer from smoking, or injuries from driving drunk or any number of things that I don't personally do. So, I don't think it is fair to say that overweight people are the cause for all health care problems.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

"I know SO many people who eat horribly and are fine on the weight end of things. Of course who knows what's going to happen to them years later from eatting poorly?"

That's why I felt my research thesis was cool.







Most of the students I polled were still in relatively good shape and looked thin. But they were starting habits that were going to cause problems for themselves in the future.

Even very thin people can be unhealthy, as their organs can be surrounded in fat, while their thighs are tiny. And that's even more important (if I recall) than whether you're apple or pear-shaped.

So it would be nice if the PSAs somehow could "appeal" to all people, rather than just heavier people.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mollyeilis_
*"I know SO many people who eat horribly and are fine on the weight end of things. Of course who knows what's going to happen to them years later from eatting poorly?"

That's why I felt my research thesis was cool.







Most of the students I polled were still in relatively good shape and looked thin. But they were starting habits that were going to cause problems for themselves in the future.

Even very thin people can be unhealthy, as their organs can be surrounded in fat, while their thighs are tiny. And that's even more important (if I recall) than whether you're apple or pear-shaped.

So it would be nice if the PSAs somehow could "appeal" to all people, rather than just heavier people.*
Yes yes yes! Let the message be "Let's all be healthy!" not "Lets mock the fat people because they're disgusting!"

And honestly, I am one of those people who truly does NOT know how to eat healthy. I mean yeah, duh, I know veggies are better than McD's, but I have no idea how to build from the ground up, a healthy kitchen, all healthy meals, snacks, ect. Trying to build a shopping list that takes making meals and snacks and Dh and my likes and dislikes into consideration that is healthy (and I mean really healthy, the food pyramid is all wrong from what I've read) is just mind boggling to me. I was raised having ice cream for dinner if I wanted. I've improved drastically from that, and am in the deciding stages of starting weight watchers or something to gain control, but really its a lot more than just knowing carrots are a better choice than chocolate chip cookies...

So having quick commercials that teach, rather than make me ashamed, would truly be helpful!


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Unbelievable. While, on the one hand the US government is wringing it's hands about obesity, on the other, it's not cooperating with WHO's plan to combat obesity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

From today's Washington Post:

Quote:

The Bush administration announced yesterday it will demand significant changes to a major World Health Organization initiative to battle obesity globally, saying the plan is based on faulty scientific evidence and exceeds the U.N. body's mandate.

The move prompted intense criticism from U.S. and international health and nutrition experts, who charged that the U.S. objections are a thinly veiled attempt to placate the food and sugar industries and derail a vital international assault on one of the world's biggest health problems.

The WHO plan, which outlines strategies that nations can use to fight obesity, has been widely applauded by public health advocates but *bitterly opposed by some food manufacturers and the sugar industry because it includes some controversial options, such as restricting advertising aimed at children and increasing junk food prices* through taxes and adjustments in farm subsidies.

Bold face added by me.


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## lolabelle (Mar 9, 2004)

Hi there...I'm new to these boards so don't hang me on this









I am a person who is very "into" health and nutrition and I have studied and researched it for probably 5 years now and it began as a way to eliminate some drugs I was on because of an autoimmune disease. Before then, it was never really anything I consciously thought about...nutritional values that is. I ate what sounded good at the moment and drank a few cokes a day without a thought. I grew up in the south and LOVED deep fried anything and casseroles smothed in cheese and "cream of whatever soups" So...I do feel education of sorts is needed, even though people know what is a healthy choice and what is not, a reminder I feel would be helpful.

My other thought on this stems from a discussion a good friend and I had on this subject last night. She is a smoker and lived in St. Croix for a year and recently returned. She paid $1.45 for a pack of cigs there and over $4.00 here because of the tobacco tax. Obesity related disease is now exceeding the number of tobacco related disease. Soooo...why not tax junk and fast food?
Put a tax on twinkies and on big macs....on items that list high fructose corn syrup, trans fats, hydrogenated oils, etc...
People can still choose to eat the junk, despite knowing the health risk, and can contribute to the health care cost that result largely from these types of diets...plus it is also a gentle reminder when they get the bill. Why we're at it...give tax deductions to those who do work out...though I don't know how to prove that!

Just some ideas....


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Long ago I tried to figure out how prices on food could be changed to reflect their healthfulness. A certain rate per empty calorie? Have a ranking system based on it's all-around good-for-you-ness?

I never figured it out, but it was something I thought of ages ago.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

THis makes no sense. I read through these threads that nobody wants the government to legislate morality yet at the same time you want to punish behaviours that you don't approve of like smoking by overtaxing cigarettes , wanting to up taxes on unhealthy food. If you don't want government to legislate morality, then you darn well shouldn't penalize peoples behaviour with extra taxes.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Who is the "you" you are talking to, gardeningmom? I never mentioned taxes, just a price structure change that I know full well could never work. I mean, just try to get lettuce growers to accept even LESS for their produce than they already do....







:

I understand you wanting people to be consistent (in your eyes) with their feelings, but wanting to teach/show people that Ding Dongs aren't a healthy snack isn't quite the same as morality.

I don't quite know what threads you are talking about, nor do I know what morals you are talking about. So....







:


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

I would define "you" as anyone who doesn't think the government should legislate morality (abortion, gay marriage), but thinks overtaxing cigarettes is okay. I wasn't referring to you specifically. Sorry for my unclear writing.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*...There's no way this country is ever going to be able to afford universal health care, let alone do something about spiralling health plan premiums, if people don't start taking better care of themselves...*
I agree. But what does that have to do with obesity?

I eat a rice based diet, I eat food that "remembers where it came from". I go to the gym three times a week to lift weights and do cardio. My blood pressure and cholestoral levels are on the low side of the normal range. I am also nearly 300 lbs.

You can be rail thin and unhealthy. You can be "obese" and healthy. Those are medical facts. The key is, do you move your body? Do you eat well? Did you get a good start nutrionally?

Our goverment continues to pave American and allow stores like Wal-Mart to destroy downtowns, thereby taking away nearly all incentive to walk instead of drive. The government allows formula to be advertised while breastfeeding is left to non-profit groups like LLL for it's advertising. The government allows school lunches to be serves that are as far from "whole foods" as food can get, with soda vending machines within easy reach to wash it down.

Posters of "obese" people with a message that if the person in the picture only "took a walk after dinner" and stopped eating fast food, she'd soon fit into a bikini are untruthful and, frankly, only make the fatphobia that those of us who happen to be healthy and fat already have to deal with on a daily basis much worse.

I am so angry that a government that has as many unhealthy policies as ours does is lecturing _me_ on how to manage my health.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I would say that there is definitely disagreement on what constitutes healthy. My husband thinks that hot dogs and chicken nuggets are healthier than macaroni and cheese. But if he does buy the macaroni and cheese for our daughter to eat, he will buy the Stouffer's kind with hydrogenated oils in it, and then wonders why I would want to make it from scratch.

I have a friend who laughed at the Oreo issue and thinks the person who brought it should be fined or jailed. He said there isn't one study that substantiates the claim that PHO's are bad for you.









The thing I thought was interesting was that in the article about the bill that would limit lawsuits by the obese against the food industry, the argument is made that there is no evidence that the fast food contributes to health problems. There is an ad that makes fun of the lawsuit problem by showing a girl scout on trial. Well, frankly, I do think the Girl Scouts should stop selling such an unhealthy product.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but I think airing ads to kids about taking responsibility without talking about the dangers of fast food consumption is useless. _nutritional experts criticize the effort because they say the ads fail to address the proliferation of fast-food consumption among youngsters. "I am encouraged by the effort, but it needs to address the fast-food crisis," said Assistant Clinical Professor ALAN GREENE, a children's health advocate. "French fries are the No. 1 food with kids. There is no way we are going to turn the tide until we address that issue."_

I feel like the ads are deliberately trying to move away from the say no to junk food message in order to placate the food industry, but maybe I'm wrong about that.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Everybody knows that there is a MINORITY of people who battle obesity due to medical conditions or metabolic disorders, etc.

But I am sorry that does NOT excuse a SIXTY-NINE PERCENT obesity rate. I'm not pointing fingers at "fat people" but the VAST MAJORITY of that 69% are not just "naturally plump". They consume way more calories than they expend. Unfortunately, eating crap and junk food in MASSIVE PORTIONS and living in a car-based society is a great way to tip the balance of that simple equation against you, but nobody is suggesting that all obese people just sit around eating junk food all day.

Pulling the "I can't help it, this is the way I am" card may be helpful from an acceptance/tolerance/self-esteem issue, but it does a grave disservice to the TRUTH that there is an obesity epidemic in this country that is creating serious health risks for society, and it's not due to an epidemic of metabolic disorders.

And I certainly never claimed that obese people were "spending all our health dollars". I would never claim that a smoker should be denied paid care because they "did it to themselves", nor am I suggesting that obese people should. However, when society chooses to finance health care (and don't kid yourselves that you pay for it all - your premiums are a tiny fraction of what your company pays the HMO) they have a vested interest in reducing the costs. Now sure, not everybody is perfectly healthy but the number of people hospitalized and dying because they don't eat organic foods isn't putting a massive dent in the bill. Obesity is (as is smoking, though thankfully that is declining).

What I am saying is that, if there is a hope in hell that poor people (specifically the working poor) will have access to health care, then somebody needs to do something about spiralling health care costs. The facts on this are as clear as the health effects of breastfeeding: obesity kills. It is NOT healthy. Your body simply isn't designed to carry that much weight, your heart is not designed to pump that much blood, and obesity is a known risk factor for diabetes and heart disease. I do research in Cardiology and I can tell you that you can pretty much bet your lunch money that the next case report is going to start out with "patient is obese, diabetic, hypertensive complaining of chest pain..."

ITA that the food lobbying industry is the biggest hurdle in changing American's attitudes and tastes towards food, and I'm outraged at the stance taken on the UN resolution. I think the current ad campaign is useless and just typical Hollywood "shock-cheese". But I do think that the drastic reduction in smoking can be directly attributed to nationwide advertising and awareness campaigns, and I am just as confident that an _appropriately designed_ campaign for healthy eating and lifestyles could have a similarly successful outcome. If tobacco companies and their lobbyists could eventually be overcome, then so can the junk food industry. We just all need to fight for our right to ready access to healthy food!!


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*...wanting to up taxes on unhealthy food.*
there is no need to "up" taxes on unhealthy food, all we have to do is get rid of the corporate welfare policies that are subsidizing the production of corn syrup etc.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder how much poverty influences obesity. If you work at a minimum wage job, you might have to work more than 8 hours a day just to get by. Maybe 10 to 12 hours, 5 to 6 days a week. That does not give you a lot of time to exercise, grocery shop or prepare nutritious meals. So you might rely on fast food a lot.

I think one reason why so many kids are obese is because of the homework overload. They aren't able to spend their after-school time climbing trees and playing in the mud; they have to do some stupid math problems and read things they aren't interested in to "better themselves" while they get fatter and fatter, because after all the work is done it's time for dinner and bed, no more running around outside!

And I really don't see all these fat people "the government" keeps talking about. Where are they? People still look the same to me. In my classes of about 400 students, I see a few fat people, several grossly skinny people, and the rest of us are just regular sized. (And my perception is not skewed because I'm fat; I'm one of those regular sizes.)

People with eating disorders are probably relieved that the focus has been taken off them; if you weigh 80 lbs you will be admired in this fat-hating age!


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*
And I really don't see all these fat people "the government" keeps talking about. Where are they?*
everywhere, that's why it's hard to see. you need to go out of the country and come back to really notice the difference. the difference in physique between a group of typical americans and a group of typical, say, french, is extremely visible when you see them side by side.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

I wonder how much poverty influences obesity
Poverty is definitely a factor when it comes to a person's chances of becoming obese. The obesity epidemic affects people of all classes, but the poor seem to be much more likely to be obese. Why? The poor don't have access to good health care, they are less likely to get appropriate advice from doctors when they do get in to see a doctor. They either don't have time to exercise, or live in areas in which they don't feel safe even to walk around the block. Also, food is the ultimate cheap recreation. A bag of potato chips and a good TV show are about the most fun you can have for $.99. Fast food places, with their super-sizing and "value meals" make gargantuan portions affordable. People probably feel like they must get the super-sized meal, just to get their money's worth.

But I don't want to paint people as helpless victims. I totally agree with Piglet.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*And I really don't see all these fat people "the government" keeps talking about. Where are they?*
Come to Cleveland! I've never seen so many overweight people in one place in my life as where I live and work (West Side for you Ohioans). And yeah, it's the poor part of town.

Eating healthy food doesn't have to cost, but when there is no easy and ready access to it, you're strapped for time, and your choices are BK, McD, or KFC drive through....in Europe every corner has a food vendor selling wonderful, wholesome snacks and sandwiches.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

"corporate welfare" and "eliminate subsidies" are nice catch phrases, but they don't really describe what is going on. two of the biggest subsidies the federal government gives are to beef farmers: they pay below-market rates to graze on public lands and they pay below-market prices for water. the water issue is especially huge: apart from livestock producers being by far the largest industrial polluters in america, it takes 100 times as much water to create a pound of beef as it does to create a pound of wheat.

the net result is a government subsidy of roughly $30 PER POUND OF BEEF.

want to eliminate the fast food scourge killing our nation? eliminate socialized beef and start practicing the capitalism so many claim they believe in.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Healthy food such as fresh produce can be affordable, but you have to eat more than that. If you have time to cook, you can make bean soup or some sort of grain-based thing, but that's my point, jobs and schoolwork don't often leave a lot of time for cooking.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*jobs and schoolwork don't often leave a lot of time for cooking.*
which gets us back to the tax code: feeding a family and teaching/raising children IS work and needs to be recognized as such by the tax code so that people can afford to be as fully engaged as they want to be.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i've read almost none of the thread so far, but someone mentioned poverty influencing obesity and i really wanted to share this before reading through the thread in it's entirety ~

here in CA, food stamps will cover...
* vegetable plants and seeds for growing your own food... but not soil, compost, pots, or garden tools
* hoho's, ringdings, candy bars, hostess "donuts", twinkies, cake, ice cream, etc... but not locally made red wine (which has been shown to help a person's heart)
* an unlimited supply of frozen pizza and other junk food.

i have to reiterate that last point, because it just occurred to me the other day that, if i so chose, i could spend ALL of our $300 in food stamps on... cadbury creme eggs, pizza, soda, twinkies, ice cream, hot pockets, and Home Run pies.

or i could keep doing what i do, which is buying all fresh fruit and fresh veggies, whole grains, flour, yeast, etc... all organic when possible. sure, we also buy soda for my dp, and treats occasionally, but the bulk of what we buy is healthy.

on the back of the food stamps they have the food guide pyramid, and tips for Healthy Living... but even *i* never read those. i just flip out the booklet and pay for our food.

i have, however, seen many of my neighbors and other families in the community with their kids in the local general store, loading up their cart with crates of soda, chips, frozen food, candy bars, and so on, and paying for it all w/ food stamps. they are obviously unhealthy, *all* the family members are overweight, pasty-skinned, and unhealthy-looking...

i know first hand how easy it is to get in the habit of eating junk food when you have a busy life, but all a person has to do is change that habit in order to lead a healthier busy life. if the government were really so serious about wanting to make a healthier america, they would focus on making it easier for families -- especially overworked, underpaid families who have grown up eating junk food and have lived sustained in a culture of junk food. when we first moved out on our own and had no money, we saw how much money we saved by eating fast/junk food on sale and on deals... it kept us full, it tasted decent... but it left us all w/ bad habits and unhealthy. luckily the habit left us quickly but... it was cheaper! cheaper to pay $1 for a couple of hamburgers than buy fresh food and make our own, cheaper to pay $2 for a giant box of Hostess "snacks" at Wal-Mart and fill ourselves up with that than buying $2 worth of fresh produce and trying to stay full from that.

if we had kept up that habit we would have ended up like the rest of America... but we chose to start walking everywhere, ditch the idea of a car, and max out our credit cards on fresh produce and whole grains.

ok enough rambling.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*...The facts on this are as clear as the health effects of breastfeeding: obesity kills. It is NOT healthy...*
I'd like to see those facts, please. My blood pressure and cholesterol are on the low end of normal. I don't eat fast food, I eat whole foods. I work out three times a week (weights and cardio). I am also obese. Now, please tell me how, exactly, my weight is "killing" me.

Have you read *Big Fat Lies: The Truth about Your Weight and Your Health* by Glenn A. Gaesser, Ph.D.? Did you know that the diet industry is a 40 *billion* dollar a year industry that subsists primarily on fat-phobia and misinformation?

Briefly, let's look at the latest study publishes in the New England Journal of Medicine claiming that obesity is "linked" to higher rates of cancer. That "link" is only statistically significant once a person's BMI reached 40 or above which describes roughly _five percent_ of American adults. (Five percent, not the oft repeated 69%) Yet that link is being used to, once again, beat every obese American over the head with the idea that they simply must get to Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig and give them their money, oops, I mean, "loose weight".

There are a lot of people making a lot of money off the idea that inspite of my enviable health stats, I'm still not healthy simply because I am obese. As a feminist and as a liberal, questioning what my government and it's corporate backers are trying to convince me of as "true" is a big part of who I am. I've done the research and I am simply not buying what they are selling.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

okeedoke.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/12...ty_kills040112



_Quote:_

A study published Monday in the Canadian Journal of Public Health shows the proportion of people who died between the ages of 20 and 64 increased steadily between 1985 and 2000.

Obesity leads to serious health complications such as high blood pressure. It concludes that almost 10 per cent of all premature deaths in Canada can be associated with being overweight or obese, especially in Eastern Canada.
one look at modern american football players shows that one can, in the short run, be massively overweight and athletic at the same time. those 350 pounders on television on sunday afternoons are RUNNING and JUMPING and are unquestionably athletes in every sense of the word. the concern isn't about heavy, active 20/30 somethings, it's about what happens later in life when the weight doesn't go away but the activity levels drop.

ETA: the so-called diet industry is a sad sick joke, totally with you on that one.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*My blood pressure and cholesterol are on the low end of normal. I don't eat fast food, I eat whole foods. I work out three times a week (weights and cardio). I am also obese. Now, please tell me how, exactly, my weight is "killing" me.*

How old are you? Get back to me in your late forties and fifties. The evidence is overwhelming. And I'm not talking about cancer - those links are usually tenuous at best. I'm talking diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease.

Quote:

Did you know that the diet industry is a 40 *billion* dollar a year industry that subsists primarily on fat-phobia and misinformation?
You are correct. Dieting is no way to lose weight or maintain a healthy weight. ITA with you - the diet industry is based on lies and fat-phobia. They make billions by feeding people misinformation. How about cutting out the junk and cutting portion sizes in half. Might not work for everybody, but it will work for most of them.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
...How old are you? Get back to me in your late forties and fifties. The evidence is overwhelming. And I'm not talking about cancer - those links are usually tenuous at best. I'm talking diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease... [/B]
How about age 62? That's my fathers age. Low blood pressure, low cholestoral, no hypertension or heart disease. Favorite kitchen item is his rice cooker. Does yoga four times a week, has been doing yoga for years. Lives in a city, rarely drives, walks everywhere. Takes three hiking vacations a year to do four day long, challenging walks. Has been obese for fourty of his sixty two years.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
...You are correct. Dieting is no way to lose weight or maintain a healthy weight. ITA with you - the diet industry is based on lies and fat-phobia. They make billions by feeding people misinformation. How about cutting out the junk and cutting portion sizes in half. Might not work for everybody, but it will work for most of them. [/B]
I disagree. I don't eat junk food, neither does my Dad. We both eat reasonably size portions. And we're fat. Really fat. And we're both healthy. Really healthy. I talk to people all the time who can't figure out why it is that even if they "eat right" and exercise, they are still not thin, so they _give up on the eating right and exercising_. When I try to tell them that by eating right and moving their bodies, they were actually getting much healthier, even if the number of the scale didn't change, they don't believe me. Because everyone knows that thin=healthy and fat=unhealthy. Forget the _entire inside of your body_, the only true measure of health is the size of your ass!

How about instead instead of expecting every single person to weigh the same, we accept that weight, like height, can vary widely? How about we stop the laser-like focus on weight loss as the be-all, end-all goal of nutrition and exercise and instead focus on measurements that have a proven history as indicators of good health (ie blood pressure, etc.)? How about we stop lying to people and telling them that if they just do X,Y, or Z, they'd suddenly find themselves much thinner? How about if we stop equating thinness in-and-of-itself with health? Or are those chain smoking, diet coke guzzling supermodels actually how we are measuring "healthy" these days?


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

The bottom line, for me, is that these so-called public service ads are untruthful, fat-phobic and offensive.

If they want to help Americans be more healthy, then stop killing downtowns and quit subsidizing gasoline and make it more likely that people will actually walk from place to place. Promote breastfeeding and whole foods. Make school lunches tasty and healthy, give the boot to the soda vending machines in so many schools. And so on.

But the diet industry wouldn't make a damn dime off of those kind of ideas and, in the end, it's just *so* much easier/acceptable to make fun of fat people. Ewww, she's got a roll of fat on her tummy. He's got a double chin! Gross!







:

America, land of the superficial. How proud I feel right now.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

At 5'1 and a pre-pregnancy weight of 118, I am considered "obese" by many health professionals. That's why I have a hard time taking them seriously; anyone who looks at me and not the scale would never say that!

Why don't they take bodyfat % into consideration? I was a weightlifter. I have a higher % of muscle than most women. Of course that is going to add some weight.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

Showing boys poking at tummies is shaming and will obviously backfire. It'll for sure send some overeaters running straight for a candy bar! Shaming people lowers their self-esteem and increases stress. Many, many people overeat due to stress. Ergo, let's increase stress to encourage people to lose weight? Huh??









On-going love, acceptance, faith, support and encouragement are the things that prompt deep and abiding change. But, that's not easy - certainly not as easy as a TV ad. This whole society is geared toward taking the easy way out-for some that easy way is food, for others its poking fun (in the case of this ad - literally). It's the odd person who takes the road less traveled and actually tries to do what's best and what's healing and right.

So what should our government really do? How can this society take a positive caring approach to the 'problem' of obesity? Can it? Is it truly possible for our corpulent government to develop a positive approach considering all the political maneuvering inherent in our system; all the corporate lobbyists, etc.? I really doubt it.

It's easy to talk about weight issues in the abstract or in terms of policy or what's best for "people". But, it accomplishes nothing in our lives or in the lives of those we love. One person's weight issue can't be resolved with shaming, TV ads, diet pills, generalizations or any attempts to simplify this complex issue. Let's not oversimplify - overeating is not equal to smoking. Yes, it is similar in some ways, but it is a very different problem in other ways, too. At the very least smokers just don't have to smoke to stay alive. Overeaters have to eat several times a day - every day.

It just bothers me so much when people try to apply a single-faceted solution to a multi-faceted problem and assign blame. Let's look at overweight, formula fed adults and ask WHY & HOW that formula is affecting them today and honestly encourage exclusive breastfeeding. Let's get cheap, crappy out of our school lunch programs. Let's get McD's to offer lean meat & smaller portions. Let's get restaurants to serve healthy food in healthy-sized portions. Let's love and accept overweight people and THEN help them lose weight by finding ways that work for each individual. Let's get insurance companies to pay for gym memberships and weight loss support groups and mental health so that getting and staying healthy is supported. Let our government's food stamp program pay enough that people can afford healthy food. Let's boycott companies that make pure junk.

There's so much we could do and so little we're actually willing to do to help. It's quite akin to being overweight - the actual "doing" is hard - very hard and it's so overwhelming that we just don't know where to start and so we don't. So we place blame and shame on fat people and we hurl the easiest, cheapest and least responsible thing we can find at them - a degrading TV commercial.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

pug - based on what you've told me about your father, your weight issues might just be largely genetic. That puts you squarely in the minority among people who are clinically obese (a diagnosis which, I believe, is based on body mass index, not simply weight on a scale). You will never convince me that the vast majority of obese people in this country are that way while maintaining the lifestyle and eating habits of you and your father.

As for your second post...well said! I couldn't agree more!!!!!!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

you all have brought up some great points!

this stood out to me...

Quote:

At 5'1 and a pre-pregnancy weight of 118, I am considered "obese" by many health professionals.








i wouldn't consider that obese, but i'm not a health professional either.









i've dealt with disordered eating well over 7 years now (i've lost count). all these ads will do is feed into the pro-ana / pro-ed community; i can't see them doing any actual good.

Quote:

The bottom line, for me, is that these so-called public service ads are untruthful, fat-phobic and offensive
i agree 100%.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

BMI is simply a unit of weight divided by a unit of height, or something like that. It doesn't account for bodyfat percent.

Someone is considered obese when they weigh 20% more than what they "should." So if someone decides that a person of my height has no business being over 100 lbs (as many people believe) then at nearly 120 lbs I am right on the line of being obese.







:


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

The clinical definition of obesity is a Body Mass Index (BMI) greater than 30. BMI is your weight divided by your height squared.

BMI < 18.5 = underweight
BMI 18.5 - 24.9 = normal
BMI 25 - 29.9 = overweight
BMI > 30 = obese

Note that here, it is the "obese" category that is associated with severe health risks. While being in the "overweight" category is considered to be a "warning", the negative effects of that are less clear. Personally, I think people in the lower range of the "overweight" group who are active and eat well are probably just "outliers" in the normal range and not at risk. Also note the considerable range of values that constitute "normal". This certainly allows for natural variability in bone structure, natural build, etc.

Greaseball - based on height of 5'1 and weight 118 your BMI is 22.3 which puts you squarely in the normal range. In fact, to be overweight you would have to weigh 132 lbs. To be obese, you would have to weigh 159 lbs. Tell that to whoever thinks you are fat!









If anybody wants to calculate their BMI, there's a handy calculator here.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

WooHoo! I'm officially not fat!























I guess the idea that all short people should weigh 100 lbs is another example of taking fear of obesity to the extreme.

It does seem like everyone has stopped talking about eating disorders. It's almost like it's a good thing if you're weight-conscious and afraid that you could become one of those obese people. Everyone is all concerned (and disgusted) with the fat kids, but not the kids whose bones are sticking out. If I had a BMI in the underweight range, I doubt anyone would be concerned.

There is a poster in my school health center that explains the dangers of being _two pounds_ overweight. Weight fluctuates, and I would think a 2-lb increase would be normal sometimes, but posters like that encourage everyone to remain just a little underweight so they don't ever get to the point where they are 2 lbs overweight and at risk for arthritis, heart disease, diabetes...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Weight fluctuates, and I would think a 2-lb increase would be normal sometimes, but posters like that encourage everyone to remain just a little underweight so they don't ever get to the point where they are 2 lbs overweight










Quote:

The clinical definition of obesity is a Body Mass Index (BMI) greater than 30. BMI is your weight divided by your height squared.
ok, i have to ask... who in the world came up with that?? i used to rely heavily on my BMI to make sure i was "succeeding" (in weight loss? in life? in anything? whatever...)....... anyone know how they came up with weight / height^2? that seems pretty obscure.


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

My dh fitness magazine came today and they had a short article on obesity. It was comparing the rate of obesity in an amish community with the average american. They said the amish had an obesity rate of 26% and America had 65%, but the amish got an average of 7 hrs of physical activity a day. Obesity basically boils down to overeating and underactivity. I don't think you can point fingers at anybody but yourself if you are overweight. I could see how if a person had a desk job it would be really easy to put on wieght. THe one time I had a desk job I ate candy bars when I was bored


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*...They said the amish had an obesity rate of 26% and America had 65%, but the amish got an average of 7 hrs of physical activity a day. Obesity basically boils down to overeating and underactivity. ....*
How does finding out that community that gets an average of seven hours a day of physical activity has a 26% rate of obesity lead to the conclusion that obesity basically boils down to overeating and underactivity?


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Someone started a thread about that very article in "Personal Growth." Let me see if I can find the link.









I'm back!







Here's the link.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=111449


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*How does finding out that community that gets an average of seven hours a day of physical activity has a 26% rate of obesity lead to the conclusion that obesity basically boils down to overeating and underactivity?*
it doesn't. but it does lead to the conclusion that math skills are sorely lacking in this country...


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

when I was the so-called "normal" range of BMI for a 5'4" woman, I wasn't healthy. I was starving myself. And I had a nasty miscarriage from placenta previa/placental abruption.

Now that I'm at the "obese" while currently pregnant, although my bones and joints ache, I know that I have the ability to care for my children should there be a famine.

The one thing the BMI doesn't take into account is bone structure. At 126, I looked anorexic. At 145, I barely looked healthy. At 230, I do look matronly, but more importantly, I look sexy because my curves are those that men have been programmed to love through genetics.

I want to be back down to 145, but I doubt that'll happen. Birth control made me gain weight. Pregnancy. Depression. Even when I was eating "healthy" I still gained weight.

After Bun is born, I'll think about dieting. But not if it undermines my ability to breastfeed.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

It seems to be one of the last socially acceptable ways to stereotype, discriminate and bash people and that makes me very sad and angry.







Worse yet, it appears to me that this is becoming MORE socially acceptable.

The things that happen to people with extra fat happen to normal-sized people as well. There isn't one disease or condition anywhere a person can point to that exclusively attacks 100% of overweight people. Health risks are just that - risks! Not all people with extra fat succumb to these risks - many do live happy, healthy, normal, long lives just with extra fat. I am among those and there are others here, too.

Actually, like it or not - right or wrong, fat is the norm in this country - 2/3rds of US citizens are overweight. More men are overweight than women and yet women suffer the brunt of the discrimination (typical, huh







: )!? 90-95% of people who diet regain the weight they lost and most gain even more with every subsequent weight loss attempt.

But, really&#8230; so what? I want to know WHY so many people feel they have a right to look down on me because of what I weigh?! Honestly, if losing weight was as easy as eating less and exercising more, we'd all be thin! Losing weight is not EASY for most! Yes, eating less/exercising more is a SIMPLE equation, but things that are simple are not necessarily easy at all. Oversimplification doesn't work.

So let's get real&#8230; if you don't want to pay for the care of people with fat, think of where you are willing to draw the line. Which human weaknesses you will pay for? No cancer treatment for smokers? No treatment for alcoholics or drug addicts? No mental illness coverage (oh wait-insurance companies are already working on that one







: )?

We need to learn a lot more about how to love and accept each other just as we are and think about what that really means - deep down. A great place to start is to walk a mile in their moccasins and learn how to let go of your judgement and condemnation. Work toward creating a world that is kind, gentle and supportive of all human beings and their weaknesses. That will get us closer to having fewer fat people. No amount of assigning blame or inflicting shame or avoidance will help anybody anywhere-it continues to make things worse.

I think I remember seeing a poll somewhere recently that children overwhelming said they'd rather have just about anything else happen to them than be fat. What's up with that? I've heard people say they'd like to have anorexia & that's sooo pitiful! There are certainly worse things that can happen than to be fat, aren't there?! How did they learn to loathe people with extra fat? What are you teaching your children? Do you really believe and live what you teach them?

How do we stop all this prideful boasting about whether we fit into a "good" category and thank G-d it's not a "bad" one? Maybe it's not even possible for our society to evolve past labels? Maybe that's just too much to ask...







Maybe stereotyping is part of what makes us human? Or is it learned? I dunno - but I'm sick of it. uke

To quote Martin Niemoller, "In Germany, first they came for the communists, but I said nothing because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Jews, but I said nothing because I am not a Jew. Next they came for the trade unionists, but I said nothing because I was not a member of a union. Then they came for the Catholics, but I said nothing because I am a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no-one was left to speak up."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bippity_
*The things that happen to people with extra fat happen to normal-sized people as well. There isn't one disease or condition anywhere a person can point to that exclusively attacks 100% of overweight people.*
EIGHTY PERCENT of people with Type 2 diabetes are overweight. Diabetes treatment alone costs over 63 BILLION dollars a year.

SEVENTY PERCENT of cardiovascular disease is directly related to obesity.

Obese individuals spend SEVENTY SEVEN PERCENTmore on medications than age-and-demographic matched people of normal weight range.

Obese individuals have a 50 to 100 PERCENT increased risk of premature death.

As someone who deals with relative risk studies, biostatistics, and clinical trials on a daily basis, I can tell you that these numbers are astoundingly high. I mean, we consider a treatment that decreases risk of death by 10% to be a big success!

If you are clinically obese with no changes in your blood glucose levels, a normal healthy blood pressure, and no signs of cardiovascular disease then hey...consider yourself lucky. You're beating the odds. Trying to deny that the epidemic is as serious as it's being made out to be is just hiding our collective heads in the sand.

ITA, however, that the negative stereotyping, prejudice, and blaming of obese individuals is just completely ignorant and wrong. We need to take a "WHOLE"-istic approach to the problem, not just prescribe diet pills, stomach staples, or send them off with a "just eat less and exercise more" pamphlet. I believe this is a cultural problem and one that every one of us, overweight or not, needs to take responsibility for.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

If everyone needs to take responsibility, then some of the things mentioned here should start happening - school cafeterias serving healthy food (and schools should also bring back RECESS! What's up with that - tell all the parents their kids are fat and then refuse to let them outside to run around?!), employers could provide lunch breaks that are long enough for people to get to the gym, insurance could pay for gym memberships, and school and work should be over when people get home; that should be a time when families can be together and hopefully will do something active and healthy, not a time for doing MORE work or school stuff!








T
Re the math error: I read an article that was trying to show the dangers of mentally ill people, and one point they tried to make was "For example, 25% of people who kill their parents have a mental illness." OK, so that means the remaining 75% of people who kill their parents are mentally healthy?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Thank you Bippity!!! Extremely well said especially this:

Quote:

It seems to be one of the last socially acceptable ways to stereotype, discriminate and bash people


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Scenes from the front:

Childhood obesity is a serious issue in my community, and this year there's a group that's working to encourage more children to walk to school, including creating safer routes to school. I've been involved with this group's efforts at my dd's school and I wrote to the school board to point out that district lines don't make sense and that my neighborhood would be better served if it were in X district, rather than in Y because then more children could walk to school.

At the last school board meeting, this issue came up for discussion and one school board member actually said it was unrealistic for children to walk 7/10 of a mile to school. (The distance from my house to the school I wanted dd to go to.) That is outrageous, IMO. There is no reason in the world why a healthy young person can't walk 7/10 of a mile on a nice day. It's a sad commentary on our car dependent society and also one clue as to why people are getting so fat: it's not just that people _won't_ walk barely over half a mile--they actually think they _can't_.

Edited because I meant to say 7/10 of a mile, not 7/5.







:


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I would be worried about kids walking to school, because I doubt how safe those routes really are.








It's sad that it has to be that way, but you know, with all the weirdos out there...I wouldn't even feel safe putting my kid on a school bus.

How does the school plan to create a safe route?


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Bippity







EXACTLY! There ARE ways to help get the message across without basically giving free reign to discriminate against obese individuals.

I do agree that obesity is (in general) a health risk. And it would be WONDERFUl if our goverment would do something HELPFUL about it. These commercials just aren't helpful. They are hurtful. Couldn't they even just have commericals from people who have lost weight/gotten healthier? Doing a little "Yeah look at me, I did x and y and now I'm happier and healthier!" thing? I think a better point would have been made. Empowerment of the individuals on tv, giving people hope "hey if THEY can do it so can I!", and they could completely bypass the humiliation factor. I really don't think a few commercials are going to do squat, but at least those wouldn't be hurtful and give our society more excuses to discriminate against obese individuals.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

I think that's a great idea, Starmama, to show people who've succeeded at weightloss. Right now, the only weight-loss sucesses you see are in ads for diet pills or weight-loss clubs like WW. How refreshing it would be to see someone who said, "I lost 100 pounds and I did it without any expensive plan, surgery or pill. I used to have chronic back pain and GERDs and sleep apnea, but all these problems have cleared up. I feel great!"

Greaseball, the walk to school group has talked with city councilors about putting in zebra crossings at several intersections near the school. It looks like they're going to do it. In our city, drivers must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. On our monthly "walk to school days" kids wear bright bandanas and we have adult volunteers holding big signs that say "SLOW DOWN" to alert drivers. Kids walk with their parents, but often one parent will walk with their own kids plus those from families whose parents can't walk themselves. Since this effort has started, I've noticed more families walking in the mornings. We make safety a priority.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Daylily, yeah the walking to school is a great idea, ESPECIALLY if it gets a parent to go too! Exercise for all


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

Hmmmm.... If I had to create an obesity PSA... maybe I'd show a person who was smug and intolerant of people with extra fat making negative comments & say something about this is "before". Then I'd have that average person wear a fat suit in public for a day or two and show their comments as the "after" so people could better understand that discrimination is not fun.

After a variety of people had done the before & after thing and with any luck the world had thought about acceptance of people different than they so that more people might understand that fat is only fat - it's not devil spawn...

Then I'd do other commercials that show happy people with extra fat having fun and living a full life - bowling, swimming, running around after the kids, getting married, having babies, etc. and say - Yes, you can!

But, I'd never do a commercial that talks about health benefits of being or getting thin - I think that would just be a waste 'cause its already been done to death & hasn't worked yet. (The definition of insanity applies here!)

OK, so what am I missing (I know there's a lot more)? What would your obesity PSA(s) look like?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Mine would explain that people often have a "set point," a pre-determined natural weight which may be higher or lower than what is socially acceptable, but for them will always be healthy. Then I'd have people talking about how fad diets, pills and surgery are not necessary and that one can lose weight AND HAVE FUN while eating a variety of real food and exercising.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Admittedly I have not read all of this thread. However, I have to chime in and say that these ads make me sick to my stomach. The weight loss industry is a multi-billion dollar industry in this country. Don't think that doesn't have anything to do with this.


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## honey (Nov 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by daylily_
*Scenes from the front:

Childhood obesity is a serious issue in my community, and this year there's a group that's working to encourage more children to walk to school, including creating safer routes to school. I've been involved with this group's efforts at my dd's school*

YAY Daylily!









You are awesome. Can you give us any more info on this group?

Kids in our neighborhood don't walk to school. There are few sidewalks, no cross walks and two sets of train tracks and busy roads to cross.

I think it is sad. I used to love walking to school.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Honey, the group is called ACCT and their website is here
http://www.transportationchoice.org/. They've worked with two elementary schools in my city with great success. At our school, we've had 100% participation. On our "walk to school" days, even kids who really do live too far to walk, get off the school bus and walk a few laps of the track before they go into the building.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

daylily, that is so cool!!









Bippity - love the idea about getting people to wear fat suits! that might just get some people to see how awful it is the way overweight people are treated. And it's so bizarre, considering the vast majority are overweight, you'd think the minority would be the ones being picked on - just goes to show you how powerful the advertitising/fashion industry is!

My anti-obesity ad would talk about the uselessness of diets. It would talk about the REAL problems: unrealistic portion sizes, the easy and convenient availability of junk food, the overly processed foods. I would be showing things like Kraft dinner-in-a-box (just add water!! BLECK!) with big red circles with slashes through them. yeah, I think the food industry would go with that, don't you?







: The average supermarket in America contains aisle upon aisle of stuff I wouldn't feed my dog. And people fill their carts with this stuff!! People need to re-learn what REAL food actually is!

I would also explain that reaching a healthy weight (which varies widely among individuals) is not as simple as a diet. It's about a whole change in the way we see foods, and our lifestyles. I would encourage support groups, counselling, etc. NOT DIETS!! A "whole"-istic approach. But I would certainly not hide the facts and risks about just how dangerous it is to be obese. NOT in a humilation way, but in a "be informed" way. This is a very serious problem, and people need to start taking it seriously.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

I wholeheartely agree, Piglet! When I was at Jenny Craig they had these cardboard books (like kid books) that each page talked about what a healthy portion was & it had pop out pictures in 'em with real life things that you could carry with you. Like a deck of cards is a meat serving, etc. - it helped! I still keep it in my kitchen.

I guess I wouldn't focus on the statistics, etc. just because I personally tune out when I hear those things. Somehow I just can't relate to them easily. But, I've never been a big believer in numbers or odds anyway.

daylily - I just remembered we're in the same city! Hi!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

either all the other fat people must be living somewhere else or whoever is compiling the stats has a different definiton of overweight. Because none of the cities I've lived in have had "the majority of people overweight".








:

and really if someones job is processing insurance claims or working with sick overwieght people then I do feel their view is a bit off. How many healthy overweight people is an insurance claims processor seeing?? Not many I'd bet. I can't remember the last time I went to the Dr but my non fat dh has to go every three months to see his cardiologist. Go figure







:


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Yes, large people are truly the last acceptable prejudice.

One of my "friends", who is almost vegan, a shiatsu practitioner, and considers herself very open-minded, constantly tells her daughter: "Remember, don't eat too much candy! Remember that huge, disgusting fat lady that used to live next door to us? She was big and fat because she ate TOO MUCH CANDY."

The way that big people are judged and marginalized in our society is deplorable. I'd love to see those somewhat skinny people who eat like crap try to change THEIR eating and exercise habits overnight........ UGHHH!!!!!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*The way that big people are judged and marginalized in our society is deplorable. I'd love to see those somewhat skinny people who eat like crap try to change THEIR eating and exercise habits overnight........ UGHHH!!!!!!







*
Yes yes yes! I have a male friend who is just OMG beautiful, thin, cute, ct. He eats worse than I do! He has energy levels like my overweight dh! Are these commercials aimed at him, who is very unhealthy? Nope, because he's thin and beautiful!


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Obese individuals spend SEVENTY SEVEN PERCENTmore on medications than age-and-demographic matched people of normal weight range.*
That is wild--I didn't know that. I wonder what percentage of those medications is for mood disorders as opposed to physical ones. BTW, where did you get your statistics from? I haven't really researched the statistical part yet. From the random things I've come across in the mainstream media throughout the years, it does clearly seem that obesity is linked to more health problems, but I can't tell where obesity is a direct cause and where it is one of the symptoms of poor lifestyle choices, or if the two are inextricably linked. I think that all things being equal, being thin is better than being fat, but it seems like in many cases all things aren't equal and I feel that I am healthier than people who eat a lot of unhealthy foods, smoke and are sedentary.

I've also read studies that suggest that losing weight after the fact doesn't necessarily help and you need to maintain a healthy weight from the beginning but then I've read the opposite. I wonder if weight loss resulting from healthy lifestyle changes as opposed to weight loss resulting from crash diets are at issue.

It does seem that restricting calories to a certain level is helpful for health and longevity. I've been reading things about calorie restriction, but even proponents of CRON (calorie restriction with optimum nutrition) seem to agree that rapid weight loss can negate the benefits of a lower calorie diet.

I feel like one day I need to really research this area because I'm left with a lot of questions. I read a book called *Big Fat Lies* and I felt like concentrating on a healthy lifestyle rather than weight loss is definitely going to be the healthier route for someone who is already obese, as I am. So, back to the original topic, I think that that is what the ads should promote. But then even that is controversial--I guess anything you can believe is!


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*One of my "friends", who is almost vegan, a shiatsu practitioner, and considers herself very open-minded, constantly tells her daughter: "Remember, don't eat too much candy! Remember that huge, disgusting fat lady that used to live next door to us? She was big and fat because she ate TOO MUCH CANDY."*
It seems like the mainstream view of fat is that being fat is unhealthy, and that losing weight is the first step. So even if you have to get a gastric bypass, you are healthier because you are thin. _{disclaimer: I am not saying that anyone on this thread has suggested any such thing-- I realize the opposite is true.}_ The end justifies the means, which might be fine in terms of beauty, but not in terms of health, IMO. So it really bothers me that the alternative thinking community, the one who eschews allopathic medicine, vaccines and such often readily accept the idea that losing weight may not be the healthiest option for the overweight and that the whole thing is, at the very least, worthy of further research. Instead we have threads about whether being fat is congruent with attachment parenting and whether fat people can be AP. There have also been comments about how obese people should be taxed more since they suck up the health care dollars. My feeling is the people shouldn't be taxed more until they actually *are* sucking up more of the health care dollars. I rarely go to the doctor for things other than check-ups or prenatal appointments, so I don't want to be taxed just because people of my kind are more likely to have health problems, especially when I am making an effort to make myself healthier.

But that woman's comments do bring up a point. How do we motivate our children? Do we use a negative reinforcer, the fear of being fat? Or the fear of being unhealthy? I just don't know. I want it to be from a health standpoint, but the fear of fat is hard to get away from. The other day I went to pick up my daughter from school in the stroller. It is about 1.2 miles from her school to our house. I thought that I would carry Jessie in the sling and push Molly in the stroller once she got tired. But I wanted her to walk part of the way with me. Well, sheesh, you would have thought I was abusing her. She wanted the car and she wanted the car now. So I pushed her in the stroller almost all the way, but I made her get out for one little uphill section right at the end. She was not happy with me.

She likes cookies because they taste good, she doesn't want to walk because her legs are tired, and she really doesn't care about how it is healthier or good for her. So then she came in and wanted a cookie. I told her that eating cookies and not exercising would make her fat. I said it deliberately because she already has negative associations with the word. She immediately said, "I don't like that word!" So I'm not helping the issue at all, I know, but I was feeling rather riled up that day. *sigh*


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

you know, Amywillo brought up a lot worth consideration...

and after i read her post, i began thinking... ultimately does it really matter what we tell our daughters? (or sons?) they will be more influenced by their peers w/ regards to their self image and ideas on health v. beauty...

growing up, i always heard from my parents how beautiful i was and how healthy i looked... but as i grew up, i associated "healthy" with "fat" because i was "the fat kid" at my school (although i was actually underweight for my latina self, i went to a school whose entire population was about 98% asian -- tiny boned, and impoverished, so extremely lightweight and *small*). then i had the media influence and peers who thought that the skinnier you were, the more beautiful you'd be. i developed an eating disorder... and found that some really awesome things happened when i wouldn't eat, when i'd restrict, and "purge" by excess exercise... i'd feel better, i'd have more mental clarity, my emotions would be simplified, i'd feel more in control, and i'd lose weight -- and in the end, the lower the numbers on the scale the more successful i was, and the more "beautiful" i was. i longed for calves as tiny as my fore-arms, for bony knees and a spine that stuck out from the flesh in my back. i got it... i also got delayed development, a worsening of heart problems, and passing out during gym class. but it didn't matter, because i was finally thin, i.e., "beautiful." i'm sure it didn't help that Kate Moss was The Great Model of the time. i read Seventeen magazine and hung out with my peers -- who all felt the same ways i did, that thin = beautiful and healthy = thin and so on. it didn't matter *what* my parents told me... the peer influence, which backed up the media standard of beauty, was far more pervasive and persuasive.

i know i'm rambling but i think it's something to think about at least.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I tell people whenever they ask what size I am "I'm goddess sized, not barbie sized!"

Sometimes it gets laughs, sometimes looks, but a lot of the times that knowing look comes on.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Amywillo_
*
It does seem that restricting calories to a certain level is helpful for health and longevity*
eating excess calories doesn't only affect the person consuming them, it affects all of us becaues it impacts the air we breathe and the water we drink. the livestock industry in america produces as much pollution as all other industries COMBINED. in a world of six billion people with an ever-decreasing amount of arable land, consuming fewer excess calories could - should? - be viewed as an ethical choice.

you cannot eat big macs and then complain about rain forest destruction!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

you cannot eat big macs and then complain about rain forest destruction!
yet another example of stereotyping

regardless I don't remember assigning the decision of what I can and can't complain about to anyone else.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*yet another example of stereotyping
*
it was an example of possible inconsistent behavior, not a stereotype, and not directed at any individual. anybody can complain about anything they want, but it is not exactly news that if they do it in an inconsistent manner they open themselves up for justifiable "complaint" as well.

mcdonalds and its ilk are enormous contributors to central/southern american deforestation, i don't see there is anything wrong with pointing out that pulling up to the mickey D drive thru window contributes directly to global deforestation.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*...mcdonalds and its ilk are enormous contributors to central/southern american deforestation, i don't see there is anything wrong with pointing out that pulling up to the mickey D drive thru window contributes directly to global deforestation.*
What does that have to do with obesity?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Amywillo_
That is wild--I didn't know that. I wonder what percentage of those medications is for mood disorders as opposed to physical ones. BTW, where did you get your statistics from?
I just Googled "health risks of obesity". I also have access to MedLine, but Googling gives you plenty of stats with references. By the way, good point about antidepressants. Of course depression is rife among overweight people, but I think that has much more to do with how society treats them versus a true chemical imbalance mechanism.

Quote:

From the random things I've come across in the mainstream media throughout the years...
Worst place to get your info, lol. Seriously, the "studies" that make front page headlines are not picked out with the type of peer-reviewed critical analysis that goes into publishing in certain prestigious journals. Often, there is a funding agency behind the study with a really good marketing agent. In this case, the media reports on the health effects of obesity are backed up by tons and tons of research. Breastfeeding research should be so touted, but of course the diet industry LOVES it when obesity is fingered (which is sad b/c diets are not the solution), but the formula industry keeps BFing health stats off the front pages.







:

Quote:

I can't tell where obesity is a direct cause and where it is one of the symptoms of poor lifestyle choices, or if the two are inextricably linked.
Excellent critical thinking, Amy! But, in this case anyways, there are enough properly designed studies out there that you can answer this question. A properly designed study accounts for all sorts of variables, including the one you mentioned.

Quote:

I think that all things being equal, being thin is better than being fat,...
See, this is something I feel is getting lost in this discussion. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between being chunky, or solidly built, or even a bit overweight, versus being *clinically obese*. While being overweight TENDS towards health problems, the significant health risks, those huge numbers I quoted, are related to those with a BMI > 30. Clinically obese. Too many people think "if really really fat is bad, then being sorta fat must be bad too, and therefore being thin is best". Not at all the case.

Go to the BMI link I gave a while back and see just how much you have to weigh to put yourself in the obese category. If you lump normal and overwieght categories together, it includes a huge range of values. I think this is consistent with the notion that people come in all shapes and sizes. Thin is most definitely NOT the best. A healthy weight is best. And what constitutes a healthy weight varies widely from person to person. There is, however, a point at which it is simply no longer healthy no matter how well you feel or eat. And, of course, I mean that statistically, not individually.

Quote:

I've also read studies that suggest that losing weight after the fact doesn't necessarily help and you need to maintain a healthy weight from the beginning but then I've read the opposite. I wonder if weight loss resulting from healthy lifestyle changes as opposed to weight loss resulting from crash diets are at issue.
You sure you aren't a journal reviewer? lol
Seriously though, you ask great questions. The problem is, lots of poorly designed studies get published and most people simply don't have the knowledge or training to weed out the crap from the gems. The media, again, doesn't bother distinguishing: they are after headlines. So you really do have to be your own researcher. One thing to remember is that Good Results are Reproducible. If the same conclusion is being reached by several different investigators, using several different study designs, it lends a whole lot of support to those results being true. If everybody is seeing something different, it's good to question.

HTH!


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*What does that have to do with obesity?*
somebody mentioned obesity as a common outcome of excessive calorie consumption. just pointing there are also other, farther reaching effects of that particular behavior.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*it was an example of possible inconsistent behavior, not a stereotype, and not directed at any individual. anybody can complain about anything they want, but it is not exactly news that if they do it in an inconsistent manner they open themselves up for justifiable "complaint" as well.

mcdonalds and its ilk are enormous contributors to central/southern american deforestation, i don't see there is anything wrong with pointing out that pulling up to the mickey D drive thru window contributes directly to global deforestation.*
Has anyone here actually posted saying woo hoo Mc D's but waaaa the rain forest?? No, unless I missed it which is possible.

So your argument that your statement isn't a stereotype doesn't hold up at all. You were not answering to anyone who made such a statement in support of Mc Donalds. So I don't see how your post is a "justifiable complaint".

I stand by my post that it was a blantant stereotype.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It is a stereotype that fat people are fat because they stuff themselves with junk food.

I read something by a woman who turned to veganism to lose weight. She reached her highest weight ever as a vegan, eating organic "health" foods. She got fat eating nuts and oils, not candy and mcdonald's.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Wow, a little cyber spat and I'm not involved, for once:LOL

Amywillo - I had a big discussion with my 4 yo. dd about this just two days ago. They were showing (yet another







: ) fat spoof on television. She asked, "Mommy, why is she so big and fat?"

I explained that people came in all different shapes, sizes, and colors. I also explained that some people are big and some people are small, but calling people "fat" can hurt people's feelings and that it's not okay.

She then asked why some people are big, and I explained that some ppl are big b/c our society doesn't really understand how to eat healthily b/c some ppl were never taught. I also explained that some people were big..... well,....... just because that's how their bodies are made. Just like her friend Ari is black and her friend Grace is brown and like we are white...... that it's not okay to make ppl feel bad about how they are "made".

I understand you were having a bad day - we all have them, some, more than others (cough, cough,







), but I do think it's important to not stress size so much. My daughter is a pixie girl and I'm not big, and she HATES walking and LOVES cookies







It's normal for some kids, I think. There are a lot of ways to promote health in a positive way that won't lead to eating disorders and negative self esteem when they are older, ya know?


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*It is a stereotype that fat people are fat because they stuff themselves with junk food.
*
ok. what does that have to do with what i posted? it doesn't matter where the calories come from, excess consumption of food is even more damaging to the global environment than excessive burning of fossil fuels.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*...you cannot eat big macs and then complain about rain forest destruction!...*
and

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*...it was an example of possible inconsistent behavior, not a stereotype, and not directed at any individual....*
and

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*...ok. what does that have to do with what i posted? it doesn't matter where the calories come from, excess consumption of food is even more damaging to the global environment than excessive burning of fossil fuels.
...*
Are you really trying to take the stand you your crack about people eating Big Macs was not a slur against obese people _in a thread about obesity_? If nothing else, it was a poor choice of an analogy to use in a thread about obesity PSAs.

Further, it sure as hell does matter where the calories come from. Let's say person A eats 3500 calories a day that come primarily from food that has been highly processed plus traveled an average of 1000 miles to get to their grocery store and/or fast food. Person B eats 3500 calories a day that comes primarily from food they have grown or hunted themselves and bought at locally-grown farmers markets. One person requires untold fuel and chemicals to be used to both process and transport their food, the other person doesn't. How can they both be doing an equal amount of damage to the enviroment with their calorie consumption?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Good Points Pugmadmama.

One thing that always surprises me is the need to take one issue and define someones value or worth or their lack thereof.

While one obese person may consume more agricultural resources than a thin person I can definately say that one thin woman giving birth to 8 children (just a high random number) is negatively effecting the enviroment much more. 8 people eat more than one (even an obese one) and on top of it requires more housing space and those kids will eventually grow up and give birth to even more children which will require even more housing and resources. All the cars those 8 children will eventually drive and fuel add up too.

Do we fund PSA's to tell people that overpopulation is destructive to the earth?

You probably think the coparison is absurd. My point is that you can vilify any group of people based on one thing. And then it serves your purpose to make you feel better that you are a thin vegetarian and so are better than everyone else and less damaging to the earth.

And then we can always argue using most of the arguments supported here that all obese people die prematurely so are they really using more resources than a thin person that lives 30 years longer??

I don't know.

regardless it's a good attempt to further prejudice but I'm not buying it.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*If nothing else, it was a poor choice of an analogy to use in a thread about obesity PSAs.*
indeed it was, for which i apologize.



*Quote:*

...3500 calories a day...
i was attempting to limit the scope. no, they are not the same, but they are both bad because they are both excessive consumption (assuming a typical western level of activity). but for sure one is even worse than the other.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*My point is that you can vilify any group of people ...*
i was not villifying anyone and i completely agree with the OP about the ads being not only pointless, but needlessly cruel.

overpopulation PSAs would be fairly pointless because for the most part the only countries where people have the time and the means to watch PSAs are countries where the message isn't particularly needed. that problem needs to be addressed differently, IMO.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

overpopulation PSAs would be fairly pointless because for the most part the only countries where people have the time and the means to watch PSAs are countries where the message isn't particularly needed
please clarify, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean?


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

people in countries with severe population issues don't - for the most part - have cable. what they need is direct contact/help from the outside, not ads on tvs and bus stop posters. PSAs can be great for G8 nations, but that isn't where the population issues are.

it's a hard hard problem to deal with. unfortunately, we either deal with or mother nature will do the deed for us.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

well I don't see population issues as a national issue but a global one. People in the US that are having a ton of kids are using proportionately more resources than someone in a thrid world country for example. And we have no problem getting access to billboards and PSA's on tv.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*indeed it was, for which i apologize...*
Thank you, Dado, I really appreciate that.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

People in the US that are having a ton of kids are using proportionately more resources than someone in a thrid world country for example
................................. because they are doing stuff like eating Mickey D's!!!!! See, y'all, it all comes 'round full circle now, ya hear?:LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

actually I was thinking of indoor plumbing, our elaborate housing, transportation, utilities. Most of the stuff I've seen rates housing and indoor plumbing as a globally bigger enviromental impact than diet. Not saying diet doesn't have an impact though.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What about all those rich people who buy a new car every year and throw away their underwear and sheets instead of washing them? Why don't we hear about how wasteful they are? Maybe because they're not fat. Don't we have to pay the healthcare costs of those who have cosmetic surgery?

I think with fat people or other "undesirables" there is a higher standard of behavior.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

My understanding is that "obesity" (fatness) is not _causally_ linked with diabetes, heart disease, etc. And studies indicate that fat people do not consume more resources than thin people (tho I think consumption of resources is not nearly as much of an issue as the wasting and hoarding of resources that occurs in America and Canada).

Ads denigrating chubby folks as ugly or lazy or the image of American overconsumption just alienate me and piss me off. As a woman in this culture I am sick sick sick of being told how I need to look, and I am deeply suspicious of the fact that Western culture's accepted female physicality is small... frail, afraid to take up space is what enforced smallness represents to me.

My 250 lb body is round and curvy. It walks me all over town, carried my daughter through 42 weeks of uncomplicated gestation, is sturdy enough to manage my two large dogs even when I was nine months pregnant, and naturally birthed a baby. My size 44DD breasts provide all of that baby's nourishment, and I look absolutely fabulous in skirts and combat boots.

I would be all for educational campaigns that provide information about the connections between sedentary lifestyles and the consumption of refined and processed foods with health issues, and that encourage movement and the eating of more whole foods as something we can _all_ do. I would love, for example, to see images of fat women walking in the sunshine, swimming, and nursing our babies.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

I would be all for educational campaigns that provide information about the connections between sedentary lifestyles and the consumption of refined and processed foods with health issues, and that encourage movement and the eating of more whole foods as something we can _all_ do.









I couldn't agree more! I can't believe in a society where 90% of us eat like total crap, the only health ads. out there right now are aimed at overweight people. Oh, wait, the t.v. stations can't have their sponsors - junk food companies - getting p.o.'ed at them for slamming their product







:


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by thismama_
*My understanding is that "obesity" (fatness) is not _causally_ linked with diabetes, heart disease, etc.*
"Fatness" is not. Clinical Obesity (BMI > 30) is.

Specifically, the physiological mechanisms for diabetes, heart disease, etc. in cases of obesity are due to the changes in body chemistry that occur with obesity. These particular changes (such as the way your body handles glucose, or the way your heart tissue adjusts to try and meet the excess demand for circulatory function, or the balance of lipid carriers in your bloodstream) are specific to obesity. _Which isn't to say that you can't get those diseases via other, non-obesity linked, mechanisms._ But they are *different* mechanisms and they are not responsible for the overwhelming majority of cases of these particular diseases.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*What about all those rich people who buy a new car every year and throw away their underwear and sheets instead of washing them? Why don't we hear about how wasteful they are? Maybe because they're not fat.*
Sorry to re-dredge this thread, but I was checking back in with it. When I lived in So CA, I felt like there was conspicuous consumption all around me, but I was the only one in my neighborhood who wore the shame of it on her body. I felt like the message was that it is OK to waste if you do it in the right way. One can go out to eat every night as long as one throws most of the food away. Going out to eat, and then eating the food (even taking half of it home to eat for later) isn't as healthy, because you waste it by eating calories you don't need. Both are wasteful, both are unhealthy, only one is really bad for you. But I don't think you should feel virtuous just because you go to McDonald's and eat a hamburger instead of a Big Mac, which is about what the people I know did. Or then I have heard thin people saying that they can eat a lot, but have a high metabolism. I knew a skinny girl who ate 3 Big Macs in one sitting. In retrospect, I wonder if she was a binger/purger, but I was just a teen then and wasn't even aware of that.

And of course, the cars and washing the car every week, the clothes, all the disposable stuff. I'm to the point now where I just don't want to buy stuff if I can't figure out a good way to recycle or reuse it. But most people just think you are wacky and trying to make them feel guilty if you bring up these issues.

I've actually been reading messages from a calorie restriction list. It is interesting as there is a lot of in depth stuff posted, like numerous studies from Medline. I'm just having trouble making heads or tails of it all right now. But I have discovered that most of the people who are doing this for longevity advise being very careful about losing weight too quickly, as that can completely mitigate the effects of the CR in the first place. And then some people are posting the health problems they have that are related to eating too few calories. And some people don't want to take in much energy, but also don't want to expend much, so try to avoid too much exercise. It is eye opening.

And for another completely random thought--my brother is definitely way past morbidly obese, and he has just gotten diabetes in the last few years. I blame his obesity and lack of exercise for his health problems. My SIL blames both his obesity and his diabetes on his agent Orange exposure when he was in Viet Nam. Supposedly he got a lot of it. My father and one of my sisters developed diabetes after they had been on Prednisone for awhile, and then they started to look fatter from the moon face and water retention and such. But I really don't know about the Agent Orange.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Amywillo_
*I felt like the message was that it is OK to waste if you do it in the right way.*
it does seem to be the overarching philosophy of this society, no argument there. we'll know that
adolescent phase is in our past when SUVs with 2-casualty gas tanks stop rolling off the lots.



*Quote:*

But I really don't know about the Agent Orange.
agent orange is nasty stuff, causes all sorts of problems, it is horrible that he was exposed to it by the very government he was risking his life for. diabetes, though, isn't one of the risks from agent orange. hope things work out.


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