# I need a vacation from my child. (Is AP to blame?!?)



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Okay, yes, that's somewhat of an inflammatory title, but right now I am truly feeling like I am WAY more burned out than I would be if we weren't so devoted to the principles of AP. Maybe that's an unfair attribution (in fact, I'm pretty sure it is), but at least for *my* personality, I think all the APing is killing me. Here's why I think so:

I'm pregnant. Ds is 2.5. Still nursing.

I doubt I even need to say this, but this is a challenge bc 1) it hurts like hell; 2)it is being used a stall tactic at bedtimes; and 3) it is time when ds is ALL OVER my body . . . hand down my shirt, stroking -- or more often, *scratching* and picking at my arm -- and I feel like I've been molested by an octopus by the time it's done. "Touched out," to be sure.

Pregnant and nursing would be challenge enough, but there's more . . .

Bc we don't leave ds with babysitters other than grandparents, he almost always comes with us on our dates -- and we almost always enjoy his company. But this weekend he has been cantankerous and fidgety out in public, so dh and I have had to work extra hard to keep some peace. Not exactly a break. If we didn't care about leaving him so much, we'd *definitely* be getting a break while he was home with a babysitter.

And I'm a SAHM, so enough said there about getting daily breaks. I do get time to myself each day, but it sure as hell ain't 8 hrs a day (I fantasize that an 8-hr job is one long break-- I realize that's romanticizing), so over 2.5 years, I think that the short little breaks are ceasing to be rejuvenating. I come back to ds after a 30-min walk alone and I'm STILL annoyed by the terrible twos. Seriously, I feel like I need a week off.

And guess what? Since I believe in AP, I will not GET a week off. EVER. Or at least for the next 18 yrs or so. And you know what? Non-AP parents (at least many of those around us) do this all the time . . . a week in Vail, a week in the Virgin Islands . . . and their babies are younger than mine. Do I judge them? Abso-freakin-lutely!!! But would *I* like a week in the Virgin Islands with just my hubby? HELL YES.

But until I can find a way to hit the "Pause" button on my life -- and sneak away while ds sleeps for a week like Sleeping Beauty -- there'll be no daiquiris on the beach for me.

Ah well. I'm pregnant anyway, so who am I kidding about daiquiris?!?! :LOL

I know you're getting out your violins for me right now . . . You all know ALL about the *intensity* of AP (and many of you seem to have children as intense or more so than mine), but dontcha ever just want a VACATION?!?! Or short of that, dontcha ever just want to plop your child in the bed wide awake and say goodnight?!? Or go out to dinner AND a movie with your dp?!? Or pay someone else to take care of them all day?!?

Now I'm rambling and will probably regret this post tomorrow, but you've told me before that you appreciate my honesty, so I'm being honest and saying that AP MAY BE THE DEATH OF ME!









Drama Queen for the Day,
Breathe


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I dunno, Breathe. I think you already know the answer to that question.









We each have our principals and ethics and those have no meaning at all unless we can stick to them when times get rough. It's only when we choose to take the "high road" (whatever that is for each of us) when that is the HARDER road to take, does it become something admirable and worth feeling good about.

While I'm experiencing alot of what you describe, I'm not really bothered by it much. And I think the biggest difference is I see it as a very short time. Not 18 years, lol! Just, say, five years or so before my kids are old enough that I will feel comfortable leaving them with family or taking them to classes or them going to school...Considering I spent 12 years at University alone, I guess my perspective on this is "five years is nothing".









My DH and I make our own "dates" when DD is in bed at night. We haven't gone out alone together in forever. Actually, I think our last "date" was a 30 minute trip to the local McDonald's for dinner while my mother watched DD. That was about six months ago. Since then, nothing. But we have quiet time together every night (most nights these days I'm asleep with DD) and last night we played a game of crib by candlelight and it felt very romantic and indulgent, lol.

Anyways, I'm sort of trying to cheer you up a bit, though I don't know if I'm helping. You know you couldn't be any other kind of mother, so there's little point in thinking about what "they" get.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Breathe









I just HAD to reply b/c your post hit a real chord with me. I definitely agree with Piglet-about how you probably "couldn't be any other kind of mother". For example, co-sleeping has almost been the death of me, but I the alternative, CIO, is just NOT an option. Has not even entered my consciousness. I have to go to my son when he needs me. That's it. So, I've been frustrated out of my mind, tired out of my mind, yadda, yadda, yadda, but when I think of what I could do to "fix" the problem, well, there's just no choice for me but to do what I'm doing.

The FLIP side is that I, personally, cannot seem to consistently GET to the good perspective point where Piglet is. I used to be able to think long-term no problem. But now, WHEW! It is tough. The toughest thing I've ever, ever done or been through and I've had some big traumatic experiences in my life.

I often think that it would be *easier* to be a different kind of parent. We know a few friends who have NO PROBLEM leaving their children with babysitters for extended periods (for trips abroad, for example, or a cruise). But there is NO option for us to do this.

Breathe-I have some issues with some of the AP lit, too. I have many Sears books, and my one gripe is that the importance of mom taking breaks and being connected to other people outside of that one child is not stressed enough.

Although I really feel that my instinct is what compels me to parent the way I do, I think the lit, and sometimes the "culture" for lack of a better word, encourages this level of selflessness that could seriously make a saint crazy. I feel that when DS was very little (under a year), I pushed myself to those limits. I didn't have someone with any kind of balanced view to mine to encourage me to take some time out for ME.

Oh, and Breathe, I am preggers, too (21 weeks) and nursing my 26 mos DS. He is quite a challenging child, spirited, very bright, very sensitive. I just needed to share that to let you know that you are not alone. I don't have any answers for you, b/c I don't even have them for myself! Just support...Keep coming here to let it out. It really does help.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for being here to listen on a Saturday night, Mamas!

Piglet, I know you know me well enough to know that I don't regret AP and that I work my butt off to do it well. And I know you work just as hard. So when I hear you say that you're not bothered by the strain, it really makes me wonder WHY this is so hard for me. And you've not had a date in 6 months?!?! Holy cow, dh and I have 2-3 dates per month and I am still SO stretched. (I know, I just lost a whole lot of sympathy!) It makes me wonder why it is that I need so many breaks? What is it about me that needs so much alone time with dh? I mean, you seem so calm and happy and centered, and you're pg too! This is why I say that AP must be particularly challenging to my personality type. (I know you never intended to make me feel bad, but your optimism is such a contrast to my mood right now, it was noticable.)

So Bearsmama, your being able to relate helps a lot. I feel for you with the co-sleeping trauma! I also felt that co-sleeping would break me (us, actually), and then at 28 mos ds decided to move into his own room. At which point I went ahead and nightweaned, with never a tear from him (he's the poster child for child-led nighttime independence!), and it was a good thing bc that's exactly when I got pg. So now you say, WHAT?!? Your child is nightweaned AND sleeps in another room and you're STILL burning out?!?!?

Yes, see? I'm a mess. I seriously need a break.

And I couldn't agree more about the unending selflessness required by some of the AP lit. I bought it, too, and man, did I do it those first 18 months! Thing is, I still do it (all the child-centered stuff, that is), but now I'm TIRED. And SCARED. Of having to start all over again with a new baby. And ds gets more challenging every day.

I just hope I don't flip out and run away. Perfectionist that I am, I often quit projects when I feel I'm not perfect at them, and while it seems pretty obvious that I can't quit this, I do worry about the breaking point which might cause me to head for Cancun when I see that it just can't be done to my standards.








:

edited for typos, and to add: Piglet, You know I think you're awesome and I should have said that FIRST. I hope my reply above doesn't seem ungrateful. I so appreciate the support I get from you here. (You just make it sound so easy!)


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## singermom (Jan 18, 2003)

I think admitting the feeling and naming it is the first step. It doesn't mean you have to change anything, necessarily, but it can help you prioritize what is the most important thing for the moment. And once you prioritize what is the most important, you may be able to make small changes that won't make you feel like you are abandoning your AP principles. If it is getting a good night sleep, then lie down with your child until s/he falls asleep, and then move to another bed for a few hours. If it is getting some "free" time, maybe try getting a mother's helper for a couple of hours a week. It shouldn't be about what anyone else thinks you need, but rather about what you deem as the critical need to be an effective, nurturing mother.

I remember a couple of times when I was really strung out with pumping for my second dd--working full time, trying to get over to the dcc every day on my lunch hour and still pumping once or twice a day...I was exhausted. A very good and trusted friend, who knows how much nursing and pumping mean to me tentatively suggested that I *try*just having some formula on hand, in case I got into a bind. Because she was a good friend, I knew she had my best interests at heart, so I thought about it--I really did. What made me realize that I would NOT go the formula route was when I suddenly realized that it would mean one less chance for me to hold my baby, and as a WOHM, I was not willing to sacrifice that. It had nothing to do with adhering to the exalted principles of AP, it just was what was right for me at that time. So I stopped cranking about how hard the pumping was, realized it wasn't going to be forever, and felt less strung out.

Don't know if that helps, but I hope so. Take care.

Mia


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Breathe,

Its so hard sometimes!! 2.5 is a hard age, especially if your dc is intense to start with. Its okay to get burnt out once in a while. You just need to find the things you CAN do to make yourself feel better. For me, I need a little time to myself on a regular basis and a creative outlet. I don't leave my ds', so my alone time happens after everyone goes to bed. Just sneaking out between to grabbing, nursing-obsessed boys for a cup of tea and some online time ALONE is the best I can do for now. I also try to have at least 1 little project on the go, something that won't take too much time and can be put down and picked up a 100 times if necessary. These things help me keep my sanity.

My advice (if your looking for advice







) is to find what would make you happy and see how to make it work for your situation. Late night pizza and movie "dates" with dh? Early morning exercise? A hobby that is only for you? Relaxing aromatic baths with candles? Whatever it is, do it. You work hard and you deserve it


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## sea island mama (Dec 17, 2001)

Note: I see there have been a few replies since I started this - hope it helps anyway







.

I know exactly how you feel! Some days I wish I could just leave







. When I do get a break (to go grocery shopping alone or something equally exciting







: - ok sometimes coffee







), when I come back I feel like I never left & it's almost worse because nothing has been done while I was gone. I have to jump right back in with nursing the baby, getting dd ready for bed, making a meal, cleaning & whatever else always needs to be done.
For us, there isn't usually an option of "dates" after the kids are in bed. Dd never went to bed before 10:00 until she stopped napping about 6 months ago. Now it's 8:00-8:30, but ds is up until at least 9:30 & usually wakes a couple of times before I go to bed. Then dh wants to use the computer (when he's not working overtime) because it's his only chance all day & I finish straightening up & getting things ready for the next day. We might watch a little tv before dh goes to bed & I spend some time on the computer or doing some work before going to bed way too late. We ran upstairs to the spare bed for a "date" one day last week right after I put ds down & less than 1/2 hour later when we were done we could faintly hear him crying (thought we'd hear better from there)







.
We have actually left them with sitters on occasion, though never more than a couple of hours with ds. I had two nights away when dd was almost two & it was a nice break - she was with dh & didn't miss me nearly as much as we thought she would. I couldn't go away with dh & leave them with anyone like many people we know do, even if it was a relative - both of them are still nursing (& not that I would really want to). There are a couple of girls in the neighbourhood that come highly recommended for babysitting & I recently started using them. A few times I was home the whole time getting dinner ready, some work done or I took ds out with me & they took dd to the park or just played at home. Obviously, it's not the day at the spa we could all use, but that might be something to try, especially after #2 comes along.
Remember: this, too, shall pass. It won't be long before they are both going on extended play-dates or in school & you feel like you don't see them enough (talking to myself here, too :LOL ).
Good luck!


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## Quickening (May 20, 2003)

Lol I just wrote my own post along the same lines...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=128662

I understand where you're coming from!

I have no advice to offer, just a







! I feel kind of selfish after reading all the posts here lol because I think for the most part I deal with it okay. I just take a deep breath, accept it and move on and change what I can change. I MAKE DH take dd sometimes when he is available and lock myself into the bathroom for a nice soak in the bathtub and some hair pampering









I wish there were something I could do to help you guys, I have a friend who is run off her feet and not coping so well but she lives so far away I can't really do much for her but listen!

And what are you guys talking about, dates??? I haven't had a date or anything remotely like one since just before dd was born lol the closest thing to "date" that we've got to is a home cooked dinner and a dvd late at night when dd is asleep in our bed. We snuggle up on the FLOOR! What time we get alone, we try to make the most of it because it is all we have for now!

If you're hard pressed for time maybe you could try staying up late and having that time with your DH when your kids are asleep?


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

UGH -- I know how hard it is!!

This may not be the most popular opinion here, but my belief is that parents (especially SAHMs) SHOULD take a break. Obviously not a week in Maui -- LOL -- but maybe an afternoon to yourself here and there. My DH and I like to remind ourselves that parenting is a marathon -- not a sprint -- and we have to pace ourselves if we're going to finish the course.

I think breaks are important for all the obvious reasons, ie., we take better care of others when we're refreshed and refueled -- but I think it's also necessary to show our children the importance of self-nourishment. Equally important, IMHO, is showing our children how to value and nourish our marriages -- I think they need to see us taking special time with our partners. I like to think of attachement parenting as attachment "familying", and each member of the family (including ourselves) deserves the same tenderness, love, and respect that we, as attachment parents, aim to give to our children.

My advice would be to take an afternoon off -- either alone or with your DH (if grandparents are available) -- and do whatever the spirit moves you to do! Breaks are obviously much harder to come by with a new baby, so I'd do it soon!!

Good luck to you!!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for your sympathy and suggestions, Everyone. I got a good, long stretch of sleep last night and felt like I was in love with ds again this morning. Sometimes I just need space from him in order to truly SEE him again, kwim?

I think that for me, pregnancy is making this that much more challenging, and also sapping some of my coping mechanisms. Several of you suggested staying up late with dh, and that is how our marriage survived ds in the first place, but since I've been pg, I have to go to bed when ds does (and my *awesome* dh stays up and cleans the house, pays the bills, gets us ready for the next day).

It appears to me that I really have it pretty good -- I'm getting sleep at night, my dh does MORE around the house than I do right now, we get plenty of dates, my ds is *precious*, AND I'm blessed to be growing another life -- and yet I've been seeing the world thru my mud-colored glasses again. I have always struggled with pessimism, and I feel like it is rearing its ugly head again. (You all could have said that, but you didn't, so thank you for letting me figure that out.) This is something I need to turn my attention to and focus some strategies on . . . yoga, meditation, art (as you suggested), exercise. I don't think I'm depressed, but sometimes I sure act like it!

Thanks for being my sounding board. I always learn something here!

And mama2nicola and quickening, I hope you get some respite sometime soon! Come back here and let us know if you need support in that effort!

Hugs to All!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mindful Mom_
*My DH and I like to remind ourselves that parenting is a marathon -- not a sprint -- and we have to pace ourselves if we're going to finish the course.

. . . but I think it's also necessary to show our children the importance of self-nourishment.

. . . I like to think of attachement parenting as attachment "familying", and each member of the family (including ourselves) deserves the same tenderness, love, and respect that we, as attachment parents, aim to give to our children.
*
How beautifully put, Mindful Mom! I've never quite thought of AP that way -- as "familying" -- but that is a great way to redefine it for ourselves. I LOVE THAT! Thank you for putting that into such simple words for us!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Maybe you're right about it having to do with personality type, Breathe. I'm wracking my brain trying to think why I am not having a hard time with all the sacrifice involved. It's true that I have a pretty laid back, easygoing personality. And I have a very supportive DH. We have a good relationship and it doesn't seem to have suffered b/c of the lack of dates, though obviously we miss that sometimes. And we don't have any sleep problems round here. Most mornings I get to sleep in if I need to (flexible work hours).

Oh heck, maybe I'm just spoiled, lol. I don't have to be at work at an exact time, I don't have a huge house to clean or a demanding DH. He does all the cooking...









I wonder if part of it is that I came to this family thing relatively late in life. I was 33 when I got married, had DD at 34. I've had YEARS of time to devote to just me. And this is just a whole new lifestyle for me, the novelty of which is not wearing off yet, lol. I've definitely had my moments where I NEED to get away! But that seemed to be satisfied just by DH taking her for a walk in the sling for a couple hours (when she was an infant) or taking her off somewhere when she was older and could be away from me for longer periods.

I suppose your perspective really changes, too. To me "luxury" is when DD goes to bed before 8 pm, and DH and I have the whole evening alone together. I also know, after 15 months of being a SAHM, how precious my hours at work are. I hate to say this but, they really are my "break" (I like my work alot). I give DH a break every Sunday, since he's the SAHP now. Sure there are things I'd like to do, like yoga or getting back into my riding (horses) but I know I'll be able to do that again soon and this is fun, this mama thing!

Anyways, I'm sorta writing down my thoughts as they come, so hope this isn't too disjointed. Breaks are very important and DH and I have always tried to make sure we each get them when we need them. Just one or two hours alone makes such a difference! I'm pretty sure that this is a key element to remaining positive. Getting those breaks BEFORE you are burning out.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

One, if you're starting to think that a week off sounds good, then I definitely think that you should look into establishing a good relationship with a trusted babysitter, whether for time off alone, with dh or both. It might be a great help to have this relationship in place once the new one arrives.

Two, and I've thought about this a lot, we're always willing to cut our kids' slack for the particularities of their characters (e.g., he's sensitive, she's spirited, he doesn't like groups) but not us for ours. I need a lot of time alone, a lot more, it seems, than the other mothers on this board, or, for that matter, than those I know IRL, but rather than beating myself up about it, I accept it and work around this facet of my personality, because, honestly, it's not going to change!

Dodo, who is also the pregnant mother of a two-and-a-half-year-old.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Breathe-I hope I was not the one making it look easy! Believe me, if you knew me IRL, you would know that seldom do I do things effortlessly.

I agree that some of the this has to do with peronality type. I am not necessarily easygoing by nature. Also, I have a feeling that for me, some of the hardships of mothering and the stress I feel have something to do with my childhood. I had a hard time growing up and I don't have much family support now. Not trying to pry, but could this be playing into your stress level? I know for me it's hard to come up with the "reserves" to parent some days when the "reserves" have never been there in the first place.

My DH is currently working from home, so we are all always together. It feels like a luxury to us right now. I get to go to the grocery store by myself when I want to, run errands w/out DS on occasion, etc. But are these really considered things for ME?? I think I con myself into thinking that I'm getting some big break b/c I can on a Sunday do 1-2 weeks worth of shoppping, spend an hour at the store, lug it all in, and then put it all away! What a break, huh?

I am not complaining, really (or maybe I am?). I have a beautiful son, a great, involved DH, and a lovely home to spend time with them both. But my parenting choices have SO affected ME and my relationship that it's difficult for me to think it's been "all good". Yes, we have an incredibly secure, loving, independent little 26 mos, but our marriage is in a rough spot, we are spent physically and emotionally, and I think I have fallen into a depression about the whole thing.

Like I've said before, I could not necessarily make DIFFERENT choices than I have. Just not in me to not try and meet my boy's needs. But I am already thinking that with #2 things HAVE to change. No, not eh fundamental things I feel strongly about, but the getting more breaks, handing the new baby off occasionally, making it a priority to sleep sometimes, etc.

BTW, DH and I have been out together ALONE 3x in 26 months (besides moving houses and settling and things of that nature). We are going through a real rough patch, and I do "blame" the choices we've made. We've been together for years and years and we've been thru other rough patches before, but nothing like this.

Okay, that was







T

Anyway, my point of all this is to say that THIS IS SO NOT EASY FOR ME. Everything has been affected by my choices-EVERYTHING. Some days, if I'm lucky, I can see the whole forrest, but many I am stuck looking at each individual tree.

Just know you are NOT alone-at all. I need MANY more breaks than I get. I never learned to care for myself in the ways that I need to, and now I am paying for it. Everyone needs something different. Some can make it look effortless, but that doesn't make you any less of a mom b/c you can't make it look that way. I appreciate your honesty!


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I've had those moments too, when I just can't take it anymore. I know AP is very intense parent, and I could never leave my child for a week. But I think taking an afternoon off, or even just a couple hours, actually helps me be a better AP parent. If I get a break, I'm a happy mommy again. I want ds to think of me as a happy person, not a grouchy person. I leave ds with dh in the evenings while I go out and work my direct sales business. To be quite honest with you, my sales goals are based on how much I think I need to get out of the house in order to maintain my sanity, not how much money I want to make. Once I get home, ds is in bed and DH and I spend an hour drinking our homemade beer and talking. Since I've been out and gotten a break, I'm cheerful and happy, and I trully treasure those moments with DH. The other thing about leaving DS with DH is that DH understands more of what I go through every day so he appreciates me more (at least I think so). Direct sales might not be for you, but if you could get a part time job that would get you out in the evening 2 nights a week, it might help you get your sanity back.

I trully believe that AP calls for a lot of intense parenting. But in order to do that well, you have to take care of yourself. Being grumpy all the time can be as bad as spanking, if it makes your childs life miserable. It is as important to me that I am a HAPPY mommy who doesn't snap at my children so that they fear me as it is to breastfeed and co-sleep. I may be using strong words, but those are the things I have to tell myself to keep from feeling guilty for leaving my child for two hours.


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## Korwynne (Feb 18, 2004)

I think I'm lucky in that I don't seem to struggle with it much either. BUT< it was harder when I was pregnant, I'll say that (my kids are now 2 1/2 and 15 months). Eric and I have left Lindsey to go to his company Christmas party twice since her birth (the first year there wasn't one and I wouldn't have gone if there was) but have only had one date in the past 2 1/2 years - we went to see the last lord of the rings movie in the theater on new years day. Our big challenge is that the kids wake up when i do, and they don't go to sleep until we do.. thank goodness for baby einstein movies (or my son woudln't exist!). I've found what works best for me when I really just need out is to go over to the bookstore, get a cup of tea (either hot or iced, depending on the weather and my mood) and look at books or magazines for an hour or two. I'm usually in a much better place when I come home. I also make sure to take a hot bath with a cup of tea and a good book for an hour or so 3-4 times/week.

2 1/2 is a hard age.. and being pregnant doesn't help







:


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## Shoshoni (Mar 10, 2004)

I often feel burnt out too. It is hard work being a mom, especially one that cares so much. Being pregnant in itself is a TON of work! Even pregnant women that do nothing all day but watch t.v. are doing work, growing a baby!:LOL
Most parents feel burnt out at one time or another.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I'm trying to work out a way to ask this without it sounding too strange......

Why is taking a few days holiday without your children (aka leaving them with grandparents) not AP? I don't want to sound unkind or insensitive ....... so I hope that comes across okay, but I'm just wondering? Is it in a book somewhere, or something? Or do you just end up feeling disconnected from your kids if you leave them for a few days? (that's a you personally actually, if anyone personally wants to answer it)


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I *think* it was Dr. Sears that claimed in his book that a child under 3 didn't undrestand the concept of time well enough to realize you would be back and they would start to mourn your absence as though you were NOT coming back. I don't know if there are stadies to back that up or not or if its true, I wouldn't leave my kids anyway. Here is why:
-They are both nursing (I habe a 3 yo and a 6 mo old) and I wouldn't give bottles to the youngest
-they are not ready to be away from me yet, the 3 yo is very sensitive and does not do well when left with the grandparents for even an hour, he would not be able to be left for days without a great deal of trauma for him and I wiil not put him through that
-no one knws them as well as I do, and know one can comfort them as well. It would be difficult for them to be in a strange place (even if its a familliar place, its not home) with people who don't understand and meet their needs as well as I do. It would create UNNCESSARY stress for them
-I love my boys and I want to be with them. I do not want to be apart from them for days. I had 6 years of one-one-one time with dh, now is the time for family. They will only be young such a short time, and we are ADULTS who can delay our needs for this phase of our lives, a few years of putting our children first is such a short time in a life-long marriage.
-I can't imagine any vacation that I would want to take that wouldn't be a whole lot MORE fun with my beautiful boys









These are just some of the reasons *I* would never take a "vacations" away from my kids. I imagine everyone has different reasons. Its all about following your own instincts and what is right for your family, not about following a checklist in a book


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I forgot to add, my own parents were not "AP" by any stretch of the imagination, but they never left us for vacation unti I was 10 or 11 (I am the youngest). Once they tried, but after dropping us off at my aunt's house and driving for 4 hours they turned around and came home to get us :LOL My mom cried the whole way back because she missed us. They just didn't feel right to be without us and felt something was missing. They decided a trip with 4 impatient, rowdy children just seemed more "right" then going without us :LOL


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

It won't be this way for the next 18 years. Things change and they get easier.

When children are babies and toddlers they need the presence of their parents but as they grow they get more independent (truely especially if they're ap'ed as babies they're secure and gein the confidence to branch out.

I remember being at a point in pregnancy and still nursing and I HATED that hate hate hate that. I would cringe at the 2YO nursing, only let him nurse for a few minutes and it was nails on the chalkboard for me.

For me when the new baby was born and the milk came in I didn't mind sharing with the toddler so much. In fact it helped to have him there when I got a bit engorged. I'll never forget he was pleasently surprised at the abundance of milk and he nursed for a few minutes (relieving me tremendously) and sort of sighing and rolling his eyes back and falling into sleep...I swear he was milk-drunk)

You will sort of reset for the new baby and you (if you're like me) won't want to leave them as much.....until the baby gets older but, then again, he'll be older, too and, perhaps, ready to have an adventure with Grandmom.

This is just a season, not a life sentence!!

Debra Baker


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

I have to agree that it shouldn't be 18 years with no break. I always tell dh that when the kids are in school, I'm taking a vacation by myself. Yes, with no dh! I long to stay in a luxury hotel and order room service! I certainly wouldn't plan a vacation now and not want to take my family. We recently left dd (she's 25 mos) with my mom and step-dad for a weekend so we could get moved into our new place. She loves them so much and they are very much into AP things. She had a blast! It was hard for me though. If she were still nursing there is no way I'd leave her.

BTW, my dh goes on business trips quite oftern that are more like a mini-vacation than actual work. Nobody thinks a thing about this. If it was me, I would probably be judged. It makes me wonder if AP should be called AM--Attachment Mothering! Not to mention, if the weather is nice on a weekend he'll hop on his motorcycle and go for an hour ride! I never take an hour to do something that I really, really love. I'm so envious of him sometimes.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

In response to aussiemum....I would hate to say it is not "AP" since that is a bit of a pigeonhole, but it doesn't seem consistent with most AP practices.

If you are exclusively BFing your child, you simply can't leave for days. If responding to their needs immediately is important to you, it may be that you are the only one who can comfort them effectively, and it would deeply disturb you to think that your infant or young child would be distressed and needing you.

I know this might be going out on a limb here but....<donning flame-proof suit>....

The term "attachment", in it's *biological* sense (which is where the term AP comes from), describes the instinctual bond between a mother and infant. In Nature, mammalian mothers do not enjoy being separated from their young. It creates high levels of stress in the female, not to mention the infant. In my mind, that sort of attachment is the "default" situation, the Natural situation. Of course there is variation among individuals, and the complexities of human personality, mood disorders, societal constructs, etc are all going to affect this. But I believe that feeling that connection with my baby and being unable to be separated from her without distress to both of us, represents true "attachment" and how it was designed to be. I don't consider myself any better than anyone else, simply LUCKY that I did not have any compounding factors interfering with that (I had no trouble BFing, had a supportive DH, no PPD, etc.).

I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to pass any judgement or debate how much a baby is LOVED or how well he/she is cared for. I'm simply saying that, from a strictly biological sense, a mother who can happily leave her infant for a week or more with no distress is not, IMHO, as "attached" as a mother who couldn't. And I believe that the attached mother represents the norm, or Natural behaviour, for mammalian mothers. I say this because in our society, women who choose NOT to leave their children are considered outside the norm at best, and clingy at worst. Again, NO JUDGEMENTS on how good a mother that makes her, or how much she loves her children. I think attachment is just one facet of motherhood. But it is a very "primordial" instinct and therefore perfectly natural.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:

I'm simply saying that, from a strictly biological sense, a mother who can happily leave her infant for a week or more with no distress is not, IMHO, as "attached" as a mother who couldn't.
Piglet, I couldn't agree more. I would have suffered horrible anxiety, not to mention engorgement, if I had left dd as an infant.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*
I know this might be going out on a limb here but....<donning flame-proof suit>....

The term "attachment", in it's *biological* sense (which is where the term AP comes from), describes the instinctual bond between a mother and infant. In Nature, mammalian mothers do not enjoy being separated from their young. It creates high levels of stress in the female, not to mention the infant. In my mind, that sort of attachment is the "default" situation, the Natural situation. Of course there is variation among individuals, and the complexities of human personality, mood disorders, societal constructs, etc are all going to affect this. But I believe that feeling that connection with my baby and being unable to be separated from her without distress to both of us, represents true "attachment" and how it was designed to be. I don't consider myself any better than anyone else, simply LUCKY that I did not have any compounding factors interfering with that (I had no trouble BFing, had a supportive DH, no PPD, etc.).
*
I just want to say that what Piglet mentioned is actually bonding, as a physiological occurrance. Attachment is something that can happen between children and fathers, grandparents, or any caregiver. Attachment is the intense trust that is built over time.

I really think it depends on the family. As a single mom who is taking 4 college classes, my daughter is currently spending lots of time at grandma's house. She loves it! She gets excited when we pull in to the driveway, and barely says good bye to me. She spends the night there twice a week since I have classes till 10pm and then 8am classes the next day... and she loves it! She is still nursing with me, but is happily drinking rice milk at grandma's house, and never wakes up in the night.

Our extended family unit is happily attached, even though my Mom wasn't really an 'AP' kind of person. However, she is learning from me and my research, and respectful of my decisions as a parent... she would never do anything that I didn't approve of. The definition of family is really larger than a mom, dad, and kids! Our whole family is very attached, and it is nice that I can trust that my daughter's needs are being met if I'm there or not!

That said, I wouldn't go on vacation without her, because I miss her as it is when she spends the night at my mom's house. She's my best friend, and I'm looking forward to going on vacation with her soon.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Piglet, hope it's alright to quote what you've written here.







I struggle to put thoughts together on this important issue and you've written something here that is so brilliant, so eloquent, I have to take it for my own the next time I'm cornered on this by those who would take my children 'to bond with them'.

Thank you, Piglet. you are a very wise mama.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if this is redundant.

Although I dislike the AP label, for the sake of clarity, I'm an AP parent as well. And I do not understand why, because you are an AP parent, you cannot have a break until your child is 18. Your son has a father, too - right? When my ds was almost two, I went on a long-needed weekend three hours away to see a friend. It was the first time I'd ever been away from my toddler, he'd only nursed to sleep, etc. But my dh is a great father, partner and person, he'd been a very involved dad from day one, and and he assured us they'd be fine together. And they were. Dh got ds to sleep with no problems (my main concern), and it was a good time for both of them. To my chagrin, ds apparently hardly mentioned my name while I was gone!

I don't want to come off like those mainstream parents who urge you to leave your child, but you sound like you need a break, as does every mother on a regular basis. Plus, when you have the baby, you will be back at square one (voice of experience) and you won't be able to take time for yourself the way you can now. Now is your time! Make the most of it before that baby gets here! Take a day, a weekend, whatever, and let your dh be the AP parent. Your son will be ok, and you will be rejuvenated.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

editing out my overly-emotional reply to ask for clarification instead:

Are some of you saying that if I were truly, deeply attached to my child, that I wouldn't feel the need to have a break from him?!? That my fantasies about getting away signify an "unnatural" urge?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

dreadmama: I thought the term "attachment" was actually correct as I defined it. I believe it was John Bowlby who originally coined the term with his lifelong research of mother/infant pair bonding in animals. I think of "bonding" as something that is not instinctual, but rather happens over time, whereas I tend to think of attachment as the instinctual maternal behaviour specific to mammals (who birth live babies that require care and nourishment from milk, etc., which sort of helps define what's required)....?

I tried to be very, very careful to define the word "attachment" when I talked about the natural situation being a need to stay close to baby. I also tried to emphasize that this was BABIES we were talking about, not older toddlers who most certainly DO have some independence (varying of course from one child to the next) and not requiring the type of constant care that a newborn does. I'm sorry if that wasn't made more clear.









_edited for redundancy_


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*Are some of you saying that if I were truly, deeply attached to my child, that I wouldn't feel the need to have a break from him?!? That my fantasies about getting away signify an "unnatural" urge?*
I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say that your fantasies about getting away may be partly due to your own individual uniqueness, and perhaps (and I'm leaning more toward this) simply that you have unmet needs. Who needs what is so varied amongst individuals. Just because you get "breaks" doesn't mean you aren't getting your needs met.

If I ever gave you the idea that I've never desperately needed a break then I have mislead you! It's simply that, every time I've needed a break, I've had a supportive DH or someone around to give me that break. It has never built up to the level I hear in you. (I also have been very blessed to not face the obstacles that some women face in their daily lives. I sure as heck know that is nothing to pat myself on the back for!) For me at least, a couple of hours was all it really took for a while. But then when DD was a toddler, I found that what I needed was to go back to work FT and I was able to do that as well, thanks to DH being a SAHD. These are just some of the things that keep me feeling refreshed all the time. That's not to say they are what YOU need. Only you can decide that.

If someone needs a week's vacation from a 6 week old, who the heck is anyone else to judge? If the vast majority of mothers out there are feeling that way, such that people think you are "weird" when you don't want to be separated from your child, *then* I think we as a society need to rethink how we support mothers. I think attachment is a good gauge of societal parenting success, just like BFing rates are. But there will always be individual variation, and it is false to conclude ANYTHING about that individual's parenting abilities when there are a myriad of variables to consider.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of you, rather, I was trying to encourage you that you are experiencing a normal trying stage....it won't be this way for long.

If you're feeling like you need a break there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, you might want to get a little break from the 2.5yo once in awhile, he'll be fine with it unless he's tremendously high-needs.

Please don't take offense because none was intended.

db


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

see, now why couldn't I have answered you as succinctly as Debra did?

maybe it's because I am just too


























































DH's favorite way to tease me is to say "explain [blank] in three sentences or less!".


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

OMG Breath another really honest post - I swear you are talking about me!

I am in tears reading all these replies because that is where I am finding myself right now (and have been for the last year) I really believe in AP - but it is the absolute hardest, physically and emotionally draining, selfless thing I have ever done and I struggle with parenting this way DAILY! There are SO many days I just want to throw the towel in and say 'to hell with it - I wasn't raised this way and I'm ok' but then I realize that I'm not really and that is the primary reason I *am* trying to parent this way. But if I heard another person say how 'easy' it is, how 'natural' it is, how it is just what 'way it should be - following our instincts' I think I am going to SCREAM!!!! It is NONE of those things for me - Why? What am I doing wrong? What is wrong with me?????

I too feel like even when I am out of the house alone (which is not NEARLY enough!) I come back to just feel like it wasn't even worth it to leave because I am still in the same 'boat'. And we have considered night time 'dates' but alas my DD doesn't go to sleep until almost 10 pm and by then I am falling asleep&#8230;..We just moved to an area with no family or friends so finding some we trust to leave the kids with will take some time. - at least when we were 'home' we were able to get out a couple times a month while the kids stayed with my IL's - whom I trust will all my heart! The fact that the kids are 'old enough' and ready to be left with someone -even for a weekend away with DH - (no nursling that will need me, no major separation anxiety) makes me feel even worse that we are not getting time together. And I am sorry - but as much as I LOVE and CHERISH 'family time' it is NOT the same as time alone or alone with your spouse!!!!!!

Oh and I wanted to comment on the idea that 'attachment' can go beyond the mother. We are blessed with a VERY attached set of grandparents. My children are very comfortable with them and my ds has taken week long vacations with him starting when he was 2 (and had already weaned - on his own!) We will be taking a family vacation this summer with them - and I know DH and I will go away for a few days, and that Ethan will stay with them and extra week (maybe even Ainsley) and EVERYONE will be happy, have their needs met and be loved more then you can imagine!

DH try's his best and agrees that I need some time away - in fact I already have a really AWESOME Outward Bound Women's Only Wilderness weekend planned for *myself* but it is not until October - and I am not sure I will be able to hold up until then. It will be my first time away since I had children (or really ever by myself!) And I may miss them when I am gone - but I will still go and I will really enjoy myself and I won't feel guilty AT ALL!!!!!

I also want to add that I never had these feelings until I had my second child - life was blissful with only one and I was totally sold and happy with parenting and being home as a mom and never leaving him and all the things that come with AP&#8230;..Now I am finding that I am making decisions that I didn't think I would - but that I think will be good for everyone (namely DS starts montessori school tommorrow and I am considering a moms day out program 1x a week for dd next fall....flame away!)

Piglet - I think you may be right (at least in my situation) about being more 'ok' with it because you stared later in life. I am 28 - was married at 23 had ds at 24 and dd at 26. I never really put much thought into who *I* wanted to be before I got married because my whole life I thought that I could, would and should be totally fullifiled as a mother&#8230;.and now I am finding that instead I am burnt out and longing for some balance and other experiences&#8230;..(not necessarily a job, but some other outlet for the *other* side of me) and admitting that makes me feel like a total failure because here I do have my *dream* and I can't be happy&#8230;&#8230;

I literally feel like I am on the border of having a breakdown - or maybe I am already in it - today as been a day from HELL and I have already had 3 MAJOR blowups with DS and have been on the verge of tears every moment&#8230;..


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Okay, I think it's time to 'fess up here....... flame-proof suit on, mask adjusted, boots straped up............ deep breath......

I've done it. I've left my kids for a holiday, just by myself. A couple of times.







:

BUT, I'm not going to win any AP prizes, either, I'm realistic enough to know that I use what feels right from the AP books & I discard the rest. That's just what is working in our little family at the moment. And I do feel pretty attached to my kids.... couldn't have done it when they were newborns, probably due the biology thing Piglet was talking about, but when they were older & cruising around by themselves...... well, it was very hard & I thought about them all the time, but I had other things that felt to me like they were weighing on my soul & I just needed to get away & resolve that. And five days backpacking in the Muir Valley in Yosemite was just the treat I needed. So was spending 10 days climbing & alpine backpacking in Tasmania this Christmas. I guess it's partially that I just can't safely & logistically take the kids some places where I like to go. Yet. And I have always left them with doting grandparents.......

The funny thing is, now that they're a bit older, I feel more inclined to take them on all holidays (we have always done other family holidays together). I'm hoping to take them to the Blues & Roots festival next year for four days of festival camping, something I wouldn't have done when they were babies. And I can't wait to take them to New Zealand, altho I'll certainly not be taking them on a mountaineering course with me!!

I dunno, maybe I'm a weirdo (okay, guilty as charged!), but in the end I think you have to follow your heart.......


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

This might be another topic... but I wanted to note that Piglet's definition of attachment as a biological phenomenon is what all of my Child Development Professors and texts are calling 'bonding'. Bonding occurs between mother and infant if an ideal birth occurs (ie: no medication, no health problems, etc.,) which is how the birth process takes place with other mammals. Bonding isn't the same as attachment, which develops over time and can be fostered with any caregiver. In fact, the goal in early childhood education is to develop attachments with our youngsters, since they will be in our care for so many hours in the week, and it is important for children to be attached to someone. However, I know it is just symantics anyway. So I'll drop it.







:

Breathe, Graceoc, and everyone else who feels overwhelmed and needs a break... give yourself a break!

You are already attached to your children... they are toddlers! If you went away for the weekend and they stayed with their Dads, then the worst that can happen is







:
they'll get to spend some quality time with Dad! And you'll get the break you need. Our lives don't fit into a book, everyone is different. You don't have to try to live up to some magical 'AP' label. Being 'AP' isn't 'AP' if something isn't working for your family! The most important thing is that you take the information, and use it to live as healthy and positive as possible. If you need a vacation by yourself or with some girlfriends, then you should do it. Your family will not suffer, and they will appreciate the positive affect that it will have on you.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I also wanted to add that while the defination of 'bonding' or 'attachment' sounds wonderful and so natural - the fact is that the society that we live in is FAR from 'natural' and maybe that is why it dosen't come so easily for some of us....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

dreadmama: thanks for clarifying the terms. I hope I didn't sound as though I was arguing with you. I'm glad to actually hear the definitions as they stand. I haven't read Bowlby in a while and I'll have to go back and check. Or perhaps the field has redefined the terms since then (it was about 50 years ago!). I definitely bow to your expertise!









Graceoc: it's obvious that you are upset and that this issue touches a nerve. but I think I've explained quite clearly now what *I* meant by attachment (symantics notwithstanding) and none of that implies that there is anything wrong with you. it's kind of like saying that it's normal to want children therefore anybody who doesn't is abnormal and warped. not true.

i still haven't read any posts here criticizing anybody for wanting to go on a vacation or feeling like you need a break. i would hazard to say few of us here would take such a trip with a 2 week old infant. a 2 year old is an entirely different situation.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hey Mamas. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this topic, and Piglet and Debra, I'm sorry for overreacting earlier . . . It's true that I took your responses to aussiemom about mother/infat separation the wrong way. No harm done.









And Graceoc, how I wish we lived near each other! You sound so spent. And I know that feeling. I don't really have any suggestions, but please know that you've been heard and I SO feel for you and I'll be sending restorative vibes your way until you can escape to Outward Bound (I'm an OB alum myself! You're gonna LOVE it!)

I must admit that you saying you didn't feel overwhelmed until dc #2 scares the poop out of me, bc I'm already there! How on EARTH will I cope with two?!? I think you're on to something, though, with lightening your standards (as in using preschool) so that you can function. I imagine that's in my future, too.

But in terms of age being an important factor, I'm 33 and I think I have always thought that *waiting* so long is what made the motherhood transition hard for me. I had my whole 20's to be married and childless and it was SOOOOO easy. Even when I was working like a fiend. So I had a lot to "lose" in terms of free time, and that was hard to let go of. So I don't guess Piglet's theory applies to me, but then no one theory works for all of us. Ever!

Somebody way back there suggested that we cut ourselves some slack and acknowledge maternal temperamental differences the way we do in children (I'm sorry for being too lazy to go back and see who that was). At first, I wholeheartedly agreed and was already to embrace that approach and say, "Yeah, I'm just a mom who needs lots of breaks." But then I realized that within the AP/natural parenting movement (or whatever you want to call this little world we're in) that certain maternal traits are simply NOT acceptable. Or at least not NEARLY as desirable.

Case in point being that mothers who can't put their own needs aside day and night for years on end until their children are older are considered to not be doing as "pure" a job. I'm not saying that anyone on this thread thinks that (maybe you do. maybe I do!), but it is a DEFINITE undercurrent all throughout the Sears lit, LLL, even Mothering. I mean, every time I have gone to one of those sources for help (with EBF, or co-sleeping, or clinginess), they ALL say, "Just hang in there. They're only little once. You can do it!" Jan Hunt is the worst in my opinion -- people write in to the MDC expert board and say they're burnt out on co-sleeping and how can they transition dc to another bed and she ALWAYS says, that children under 3 should ALWAYS sleep with their parents. End of story. No suggestions. (i.e. "Suck it up, Mom. If you can't get thru these oh-so-short early years, then you're not measuring up as a *natural*.")

On the contrary, Ayun Halliday put it beautifully in The Big Rumpus when she said that depending on what you liked to do pre-baby (i.e. your temperament), the harder the transition to Baby would be. Her example was that she's a dreamer -- she likes to stare and the stars and read books and watch movies and have long, deep conversations with her dh. NOT things to do with a baby in tow. I LOVED this passage in her book, bc that's ME!!! A dreamer. A thinker. A *rester*. Not a run-around-all-the-time DO-ER who wishes she didn't have to sleep. So my transition was tough. Maybe some of you can apply this yourselves, as well. It was a lovely, positive way to talk about our differences, and I guess I shouls try to hang on to it.

Wow, this is getting long . . . Just want to say that aussiemom, you're very brave for admitting your vacations here and I want to thank you for your honesty. You sound like you know yourself very well and you put a lot of thought into your separations. And I believe you when you say your children were fine -- no judgement here!

One more thing, none of you could possibly know this, but even tho my ds is 2.5, he would NOT handle an extended separation from me very well. He is a physical child and I am his lovie -- when dh takes him out for a few hours on weekend mornings, he takes the rest of the day to get all the physical contact he needs from me. And while he ADORES his dad -- and is happy to be with him -- he is still a mama's boy and is attached to me skin when we're together.

Another reason I get so touched out, and the primary reason I say can't get away for more than a few hours. See, that's AP! I notive his cues, I CARE, and I respond. THAT'S why I said "Is AP to blame?" It was a toungue-in-cheek comment bc as Piglet pointed out early on, I couldn't be ANY other way, but DAMN, does it make things hard sometimes!









Not proofing for typos -- sorry in advance!


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

Okay, Breathe, so you can't vacation alone right now... but maybe take a little vacation with your family! Maybe the change of scene will refresh you. I don't know the things you like to do on vacation, but as you said you're a dreamer, can you all make it to a beach? It doesn't have to be exotic or expensive, but a weekend away might really help.

That suggestion goes for you too Graceoc. Also, I would really try to find some like-minded friends near you to commiserate with. Have you tried the MDC 'finding your tribe' board? I found a local mama who is going through similar stresses of divorcing a jerk, and it has really helped having someone nearby to vent, and just hang out at the park together with the kids!

I wish I had more suggestions.

The most important thing is that you don't feel like you failed at 'AP' or as a mother just because you're feeling stressed out! We all feel this way at times...


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Breathe-Let me just say, after reading your last post I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU about the AP lit and the "suck it up" mentality. IMO, you really hit the nail on the head for me and summed up my complaints about much of the AP lit-Sears included.

Also wanted to say that you sound like a smart, great, mama. A THINKING mama. I like that! Mothering is tough business, anyone that claims it's easy MUST be delusional or lying!


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## hippiemom2 (Oct 8, 2002)

I think that is why I haven't ever identified my parenting style as AP because I wouldn't "measure up" as a natural mom (or whatever you would call it). I use preschool for my children (and we all love it! such a wonderful experience for all of us







, have worked the entire time they have been growing up except for the one year I spent in Seattle as a SAHM which I didn't like. But, I still use many of Dr. Sear's philosophies concerning the type of respect and attention to give to children. I used cloth diapers, breastfed, and co-slept but only because they seemed the right choice for our family. I don't completely subscribe to one philosophy of religion so why would I for parenting? I use several philosophies all blended into one called the Mama Cassel plan for successful parenting.







J/k I am a recent convert to UUism and I take that same approach to my parenting. I use some of the 123 Method, AP, and do some charting. But, I think perhaps the mamas who are feeling burnout may need another outlet. Is there any charities you could volunteer for in your area? When I was a SAHM, I did charity work for Tilth gardening association, Hempfest, and NORML and it really helped so much to get out and mingle with adults.

I don't have anything other advice just a nice big ((((HUG)))) for all the mamas who need it.

Peace,
Shelbi


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Breathe-

Last night, DH asked "what should I do after dinner, put this box in the attic? Clean up mess #1? Fix the computer?" I replied, "play with Goo. She wore me out today"

And it was true. I consider myself half AP and half mainstream. But I still haven't spent an overnight away from Goo. It's hard to try to stick to family values. We try to run our family as a unit where we work together. It's why I call my parenting not really AP...

BUT, we are very attached and it's hard for Goo when only one of us plays with her. She looks around for the other parent.

It's normal to want a vacation. I also had my first child later (31) and I still get sad looking at what I used to do and what I now do. Does that make sense?

I think I am babbling. I need that BLAH smilie...

I agree that the AP image is that motherhood means sacrificing who you are for your children. Funny how it is always motherhood and not parenthood too.
This is one of the ways we work the way we do( my family). I have to take some times off (when I work is part of that) and DH also gets some time off of being parent. It's important to us. Now, I will admit, I do not BF. This may make it easier for us to take a little me time, but it's important for us to do that to maintain our sanity.

This is a babble....I hope I am not too off...I claim pregnancy brain


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## G-Dawg (Oct 9, 2002)

My question is this:

What is better? A burnt-out, exhausted mom, who perfectly follows the AP laundry list, or a mom who gets away now and then? Sometimes I think AP = martyr mommy.

I am struggling with somthing similar right now. But honestly, where is the balance? If you are full of resentment every time you sit down to nurse a 2.5 year old and it is hurting your poor sensitive pg breasts, HOW is this a good thing?!

I am sorry if it sounds like I am attacking the OP. That is not my intention. Give yourself permission to have needs. Happy mommas are better mommas. What about your own mental health?

I suffer from ppd after the birth of all my babies. If I were to follow the AP list, that would put me over the edge! It is just a physical impossibility for me. Am I a bad mom? Maybe sometimes. Do I still parent by my instincts? YES!

When my oldest daughter was 15 months or so, I spent a night and a day away from her. I was so burnt out and unhappy and miserable. I was in desparate need of a break. It was hard for me to leave her, but in the end SHE WAS JUST FINE and I was so much the better mommy for it. I came back rested and centered and I actually had a chance to miss her. How will it be so harmful to a 2.5 yo if mommy and daddy go out on a date 1x a week? BUT how much good will that date do for your mental health and your relationship with your sweetie? My parents went on dates when I was little, we LOVED our sitter. I have a 14 yo girl that comes and watches my kids 1X a week so I can work out. They absolutely love her, it is the highlight of their week.

Breathe - kids are hard, they are demanding. Cut yourself some slack. Be the best mom you can be to them by taking care of yourself too!

FYI I am not a troll, I lurk all the time on these boards. I love to come here and learn better ways than I knew growing up. At the same time the martyr mommy thing just doesn't make sense.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Well after having a big heart-to-heart with my DH last night we decided that some things are just going to change.

First and formost I am going away this weekend - BY MYSELF - to a nice B&B on the shore somewhere and he is going to stay home and care for the kids all by himself! I am hoping that I will get a chance to really reflect about what is the core of my unhappyness. AND I am thinkning that the time ALONE with the kids will give him a better appreciation for what I 'do' on a daily basis.

I am also going to find a counsler/theapist to talk to and DH is going to go with me so that we can find a way to keep me from getting to this point.

Also DH is going to take a bigger role in the parenting (he already take a BIG one!) But more focused on learning about Positive Discipline and being my 'coach' so that when I am reaching my limit I can count on him to help me refocus and give me actual ideas and things to impliment. Positive Discipline has been the #1 hardest thing for me lately - with ds who is almost 4 - and has just been putting me over the edge. It DOES NOT come easy for me AT ALL! DH is going to read some of my books to get a better understanding of the whys and hows of what we are doing - instead of just doing what I ask without really knowing and understanding why.

We are going to have more routine in our lives - a workout schedule for BOTH of us - as well as a housekeeping schedule (of which DH will take a greater roll). We are also going to refine our eating habits a bit more.

And lastly we are going to make a date every week - trading off between going out and just staying in. DH is going to ask around for some good sitters and we will take it from there!

I feel much better.....but it is still going to be a LONG process!


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

And to add to the discussion - for me to find balance there are some definat NON-AP things that I have implemented for our family:

1. DS is going to preschool - and he dosen't always want to go. But he gets there and stays he has fun. Does he miss us? Sometimes....but we always come back and he knows that we love him more then anything!

2. I weaned DD this month - it was not child-led - although she has been more then fine with the desicion. I could not continue in a relationship which caused me pain and resentment - it is NOT healthy for either of us. ANd no matter how addicted she was to nursing (and believe me she was nursing 6-8 times a day) the addiciton was to the closeness with me and my 'love' and we have been able to provide that in other ways. She is not hugging and loving on BOTH DH and I all the time! We are a MUCH happier family!

3. I will be going away for the weekend - and my DH will be MORE then capable of being the sole parent. He was just away on work for 3 weeks of the last month - and if I can do it alone, he sure as heck can figure out how to as well!


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

It REALLY depends on the parents and children involved. If someone really needs the break and their child is really okay (like G-Dawg mentioned) it is a much different scenario than, for instance, my leaving would be. I am a fairly easygoing, laid back sort and my ds1 is VERY intense, VERY needy, VERY sensitive, etc. My leaving (even for a few HOURS) causes him so much stress







It is far more important for him to have me with him than it is for me to get a "break".

It would create far more stress for *everyone* for dh and I to go out alone. Its okay though, because we have a really strong, close relationship and we understand that this is what our children need from us right now. We have our whole lives together, so a few years of this is not a big deal in the larger picture. We are quite happy hanging out together after the babes are in bed. It works in our situation (quite frankly it has to because it has to).

In other families,with other personalities and relationships involved, the balance might need to be much different for EVERYONE (including the Mama) to be happy


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Graceoc,

We posted at the same time









I just wanted to say that I am glad you have found a plan of action that you feel good about. I hope it all works out for you







I think its great that you are making such an effort to find a balance that works for YOUR family! Enjoy your weekend.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I think that AP authors do mothers a total disservice by explicitly stating two contradictory and irreconcilable ideas:

1) AP is about trusting your insticts to guide your mothering

and

2) Your instincts will tell you what I say they will tell you.

This implies that if you don't feel comfortable doing A, B, or C on the AP list, there is something terribly wrong with you because your "good mom" instincts *should* tell you to do it.

That's baloney.

I think AP authors could do a lot better by mothers by allowing mothers to do what really does feel right for them instead of proscribing what should feel right to them.

I am a mom who needs A LOT of time to myself. I was a child who needed A LOT of time to myself, a single person who needed A LOT of time to myself, and a wife who needed A LOT of time to myself before I became a mother with the same need. I am a very good mother who gives 100% to my kid most of the time. The rest of the time I leave her with a trusted friend, a grandparent, or a dad who gives her 100%. I am not someone who enjoys being with my kid all day every day, all night every night, for years on end with no break, and I can assure you that other mothers have sometimes gone out of their way to make me feel bad about that. I have been asked, "Why did you adopt your daughter if you don't like to be with her?" I think that is incredibly disingenuous, because who among us can really say that we are entirely fulfilled by doing *nothing* but giving to others? I think any mother who says she needs nothing more than her child to be happy is either lying or so brainwashed she doesn't know she's lying. That may sound harsh, but I can't stand watching women beat themselves up for being exactly what they are: human, with emotional and physical and psychological needs. I am a very good mother who remains a very good mother by giving my child what she needs and giving myself what I need.

Go easy on yourself, and give yourself what you need. You are not asking for anything unreasonable. Repeat that: You are not asking for anything unreasonable.

Wilma


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

I leave my twin nine month olds home with my husband 2 or 3 times a week for about 2 hours each time. That way I can actually listen to the news on the car radio, relax, do errands. and by time i get home i really miss the little stinkers. i figure that when i walk in the door and give them whole-hearted hugs and smooches that is better than staying, getting burnt out, and giving half-hearted hugs.

dena


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*It makes me wonder why it is that I need so many breaks? What is it about me that needs so much alone time with dh? I mean, you seem so calm and happy and centered, and you're pg too! This is why I say that AP must be particularly challenging to my personality type. (I know you never intended to make me feel bad, but your optimism is such a contrast to my mood right now, it was noticable.)
*
I think it is personality differences. Personally I am an extrovert and if I spend day in day out with DD and no grownups (DH often has to work late and on weekends so he is hardly ever home) I go NUTS! And playdates don't count because you spend all your time mediating the kids and you still don't get to finish a sentence. I have to admit that I play hooky from work to go out with friends.

And Breathe, I don't know how you would feel about this, but what about preschool? I don't think that is counter to AP, but it may not be what you want to do so I understand (I did not get a chance to read all the posts, so someone may have brought this up already)

And kids have different level of being demanding too. I am tired of cosleeping, but DD does NOT want to sleep in her own bed. But she weaned with hardly a bat of her eye. I stopped offering and she stopped asking. Eventually the milk was just gone. Where am I going to fit the new baby in bed????? Our bedroom is not big enought to move a twin mattress into it, OK I am rambling, maybe I will post this elsewhere.,

Anyway, I am with you about needing a break, and work IS a break. Not perhaps the same kind of break as just doing your own thing, and it certainly has stress of its own associated with it, but once you get home you get to put that aside and be mommy again. Well, there are nights where I am burned out and tired from work and I want to eat takeout and veg on the couch instead of reading stories and fixing dinner and supervising baths. Heck, I would like to cook alone sometimes, and often DD will watch TV, but sometimes she wants to cook and it kills me after a day of work. And sometimes I have more work to do so I know I am only getting a short work break and this does not help my patience with DD either. OK, rambling again...

Is AP to blame? I think Yes and no. Because if you were not AP you would leave DS with a sitter a couple of mornings a week and get your break KWIM. You would not be nursing and not feel touched out. I think it is really amazing that you are still nursing and there was no way I was going to get pregnant while still nursing. I should have waited till DD got in her own bed...

I know a lot of my friends who do leave their kids with their parents to go on vacation, but the kids are older (5 or so) and only for a couple of days. But one thing they do do is take their parents on a vacation and they have their daquiries on the beach while the grandparents play with teh kids in the pool. I really really want to go on vacation (too late for me I know 30 weeks pg) with my parents now.

And like Graceoc has mentioned, leaving you kids with someone who loves and cares for them and gives them 100% and has a relationship with them is fine. Of course some kids don't go for it, but DD never seems to care if I am not there unless she is sick or something (in which case I would not go). I went away overnight with my sister (this was very important to my sister so I did it) and DD never even asked about me. Dh was with her







and she is such a daddy's girl. When I came back she she was happy to see me but didnt' appear to have missed me.

Well, I hope you find a way to get a break, because you really sound like you need it. Can you do something for the day on Saturday and go out with friends or do something else you like? (I like to take art classes then, although those days will soon be over)


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## racermom (Mar 11, 2002)

Breathe,

Forgive me for possibly being redundant but I skipped most of the answers others wrote. When I had my first child I had never heard of AP. However, many things such as co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding along with other things appeared to be just natural to us. I also deeply resented the idea of having a babysitter taking care of my child because I felt no one was really trustworthy enough to take care of him. However, I am a strong opponent of all "dogmas" and I learned down the road that there are other needs that are equally important. When I became pregnant with # 2 I had to wean my son because I simply couldn't stand it anymore. It hurt like @#$% and it completely exhausted me. I had to draw a line or I would have gone nuts. I also needed all the rest I could get so instead of moving ds out of our bed I moved into our guestroom. At this point ds was old enough to find me in the early mornings for some cuddling.

My kids are now 6 and 3 and boy, believe me I still want to go away with dh or simply alone. We haven't been away for a night in 6 yr. although we now have a bs who watches the kids once in a while when we want to go out. DH and I just need some uninterrupted time for us. By the way, the kids love her and so do we. Somebody wrote it gets easier but I find that it's always intense. Sure an infant is physically very stressful but a kindergartner and a terrible 2-toddler can also wear you out.

Who says you have to go by the "AP" book? I'm from Europe and believe me, people over there are generally a lot more "mainstream". I think even my family considers me weird in regard to some of my parenting choices. But those are actually just my business and I'm old enough to make responsible decisions. Don't be so hard on yourself.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Wow. Can't believe this conversation is still going!

But a few clarifications for me personally: So many of you are *exhorting* me (and others) to take a break, and I'm starting to feel a little defensive . . . I am neither clinically depressed nor clueless (both conditions I believe would render me unable to make rational decisions) so if I get to a point where my *presence* is harming my child (bc I'm distant, resentful, angry, etc, as so many of you have implied), then I will know to get a nice, long break. I am currently none of those things. I am patient, attentive, affectionate, and kind to my child. Any resentment I have is entirely INTERNAL and my child has no idea. I know some of you won't belive me -- you think it's impossible to fool children -- but I am doing a damn good job of hiding my frustration from ds. (for example, I have never yelled at him in his life, and have raised my voice only when he was danger) So let's please stop assuming that I have reached some breaking point and that I am so afraid of taking a break that I can't see the damage I'm inflicting. On my child OR me. I am an adult. I am coping.

**All I said was, "Don't you ever just wish you could go the Carribean for a week with just your dp?** Can't a girl dream?!?! Isn't that such an important part of the MDC community?!?

Also, I must have made it sound like I feel the AP "rules" tell me I can't take a vacation and so I therefore need to break the rules and use my own common sense. But I don't give a flip what the AP "rules" say -- It just turns out that I believe MY SON (not yours or anyone else's) cannot be left by me right now. THAT'S why I was half-heartedly blaming AP . . . bc I care about his feelings and needs so much! (it was a joke!) I'm as "AP" as they come and NOT bc Dr. Sears tell me to be, but bc I happen to buy *most* of the philosophy. (the things I don't buy are for another thread!) And I buy that my son needs me more than most 2.5 yr olds need their moms. He just does.

Wanna know another reason I "blamed" AP in my OP? Sit down for this one. I am still bouncing my child in the sling for 15-40 minutes EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. at naptime. Pregnant. (he's only 25 lbs, admittedly) Don't tell me to stop, bc I *desperately* need him to nap and it is THE only way.

Do I blame AP for this? Absolutely. At least for giving me the idea that children need help falling asleep for freakin' EVER. It was a HUGE mistake we made, to never let him learn to put himself to sleep (i.e. cry a little) and one I hope we will have the moral fortitude to not make with the next baby!

I think I'm about burned out on this topic, so please forgive me if I disappear for a while.

Before I do, Graceoc, YOU GO GIRL!!!! Sounds like you're empowered and ready to take life by the horns again! And what a wonderful dh you must have to be so willing to talk about these things AND help so much. Please keep me posted on how things develop!

And Hi Jacq!







I've missed you! When are you due?!?

Just wanted to say that I was concluding that my great need for breaks was bc I'm such an INTROVERT -- need so much time to myself -- but then you've made an excellent point about how motherhood can be challenging for extroverts, too! See, no theory works completely!

And Bearsmama, thanks for your kind words! It seems like you and I have a lot in common. (We used to live in Princeton -- wish we were still that close!) Hang in there, and PM me anytime you want to talk marriage stuff . . . we never did get much help from that other thread, huh?









Thanks again, Everyone, for the thought-provoking discussion. I don't know what we've concluded, exactly, other than the old MDC stand-by: That every mama has to figure out what's best for her family. Easier said than done, huh?!?!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Count me in as one of those moms who needs time alone or time with dh and no kids to be a good mommy.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*So many of you are *exhorting* me (and others) to take a break, and I'm starting to feel a little defensive . . .*
I think all people were trying to say is that your needs are as important as your child's and that they understand where you're coming from.

Wilma


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks Bunnysmama. I know people's intentions are good and I appreciate people trying to help. I think I'm sensitive for several reasons (and I offer this an apology for being particularly testy on this thread







) . . . first, I'm pregnant, and hormones and emotions are flying high and dipping low. Second, I'm the type of person who often just needs to be *heard* on any issue I'm stuggling with, and sometimes I feel unheard when people jump straight to advice. (I'm the same way IRL -- just ask dh and my best friend! They've learned to ask if I want advice before offering!) And lastly, I think that deep down I just disagree with your summary that "my needs are as important as my child's."

I *totally* get it that I have to be happy and healthy in order to be a good parent, and believe me, I have a selfish streak (which has me online every night instead of cleaning the disaster which is my kitchen!). But when my needs are in *direct conflict* with my son's, then he WINS. Every time. At least for these early years. And I guess I've not articulated this well on this thread, bc that is *exactly* the problem in my home right now: ds needs to be IN MY SHIRT -- not an exaggeration -- most of the day, and I could SO benefit from a spa week. But every ounce of my motherwit is telling me that he is in my shirt bc he NEEDS to be in my shirt right now. And I trust it will pass. It always does. But for now my *primary* responsibility is to my child. My needs DO have to wait. (Even though this is precisely the rhetoric that makes me crazy about AP sometimes. So there you go . . . I've talked myself full circle.)

So if I've hurt any feelings (or simply just annoyed you with my backtalk!), please do forgive me and please don't peg me as argumentative.

Like I said, I hold it all together so well with ds, I guess the irritability has to come out somewhere! :ignore

Friends?!?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I haven't read through the other posts yet but it looks interesting and I plan to. I just wanted to say that I think your feelings are totally normal. I just had my baby 8 weeks ago and can relate to the feelings in pregnancy of "nobody touch me." I wasn't nursing my oldest but even if she cuddled too much or demanded too much of me I just had this instinct to get away from her that I had to fight all the time. My dh also got the "don't touch me" message but I didn't hid it so well from him as from my dd.

Secondly you are probably anxious about the demands of the new baby and how you will find balance in a life that's already very chaotic (as any life is when you have small children in the house).

Lastly, give yourself a break. Do things differently this time if you need to. With my first I held her or wore her almost all the time, hung her dipes in the sun to save money over a dryer, cooked from scratch or tried to, kept a clean house, and put aside good part of my day when she napped, because she wouldn't nap without me being there by her. At night I sat in the dark for a hour sometimes waiting for her to go to sleep so I could get up and finish the dishes or whatever. It was exhausting and I'm still recovering from it.

With my second I have a good baby swing and bouncer that I use when I need to. If she's sleeping, I transfer her to one of them because it won't hurt either of us to get some air between us, kwim? She's in a cosleeper instead of our bed and when she's older we'll drop the mattress down, put the sides up, and make it her crib.

I had to find my own vacation, and I take it almost daily. My gift to myself was a Y membership. I would never had imagined leaving my oldest with anyone, but now I leave both of them in childcare to exercise for an hour. I can watch them on the TV in the workout room if I feel the need. I burn off all my frustrations and don't worry about them for an hour. When I leave I feel like if I didn't accomplish anything else that day, I did my workout. It also boosts my natural endorphins so I feel a big better with my mood, therefore I'm more patient with the children and my dh.

I hope you start feeling better soon. Just learn to forgive yourself, do a few things differently if you need to, and don't worry about the guilt. My baby loves her swing. If she's happy, then I'm happy. She doesn't spend hours in it, but it helps me find balance.

In the old days moms had relatives to depend on. They could hand baby off to their sister or cousin and cook their meal in peace or go gather firewood. Today's AP mom is often expected to do it all, and I don't know how it's possible *not* to have burnout if you don't find time for yourself or find balance in your life. These boards are often like competition to see who's most AP or NP. I used to feel guilty for not doing 100% AP/NP but now I don't. I just do the best I can so that I can be the best mom to my kids. I can't be the best mom unless I find that inner balance.

Darshani


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I've noticed a real common thread in alot of these posts, which I believe to actually be incorrect, and therefore an unfair criticism of AP.

AP is not "never leaving your child". AP simply recognizes that MOST children bond to their mothers first and the mothers become the primary consolers such that they simply may not be consoled by others. Certainly, as they get older, they naturally develop more independence, but they do this _each at their own pace_. AP is about KNOWING your child and providing him with what he needs.

If you can take off to the Caribbean for a week and your toddler has a ball playing at Grandma's, why is that not AP?

If you can leave a nine month old for two hours knowing he/she is happy then how is that not AP?

If you suffer from PPD you are NOT facing the same circumstances as someone who isn't. Why would you not cut yourself some slack? How is it not AP when you are dealing with a disorder that changes the nature of the game?

What is NOT consistent with AP is leaving your child with someone when you know they will suffer for it, that they will likely end up CIO b/c nobody can console them but you, and basically saying to yourself "I don't care, I need a break".

It would NOT be AP to let your child CIO so that you can take that overnight trip to NYC with your girlfriends.

I have not heard a single parent here say that when they leave their child, they just know the kid is miserable but so what, I need a break.

What I hear is a lot of mothers who say "hey, I know my kid and I feel confident that at this stage of his life he is ready for me to leave him for [blank] hours/days at a time".

THAT, my dear sisters, is TOTALLY AP.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Breathe-


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Piglet, Great synopsis. ITA!


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*And lastly, I think that deep down I just disagree with your summary that "my needs are as important as my child's."
*
I'm not trying to make you agree with me, but I want to make sure I haven't been misunderstood. I do think that parents' and kids' needs are equally important (that's why they are called "needs"). Parents' wants, wishes, and desires (like wanting to surf the web rather than clean the kitchen ... I so totally hear you!) do need to be held in check to meet the child's needs, but when it comes to things like rest, nutrition, rejuvenation (which might include surfing the web just to untense your mind a bit), etc., the parents' need for these things is every bit as important as the child's needs for boob, boob, and more boob (for example).







I try to think of it as emotional exercise ... I take time away from my child to exercise because I know it's vitally important to maintain a strong and resilient body. I also take time away from my child to rejuvenate emotionally because I know it's vitally important to maintain and strong and resilient psyche. (BTW, lest I make it sound like I'm never with my kid, she's with my mom for 2 hours a week and my friend and her daughter for two hours a week. A grand total of 4 hours of me time!)

Parents' needs and kids' needs may look different at times, but it's equally necessary that they be met.










Wilma









*edited for typos*


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

breathe, i hear you sistuh! i didn't stumble across this thread until tonight, but i often think i'd like a little vacation. i think you know my dd1 is the velcro kid. dd2 actually seems to be cut a little differently. she doesn't mind not being held every minute and i just don't. i have occasional pangs of guilt about it, but i'm ...uh...resigned to it i guess. not sure of the right words. i definitely had to limit dd1's nursing during pg and i still do now that dd2 is here. it's not as bad, but y'know this kiddo would never stop if i didn't ask her to. really. anyway, the other day i was thinking i'd like to just have a couple days and nights of 6 or 7 years ago before kids. just sorta like to have a time travel vacation.

i'd say more, but i'm too tired to think straight. it's 11pm and i need to go get myself and dd1 ready for bed







. it's like this every night, though...


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## hippiemom2 (Oct 8, 2002)

I think there is one thing that hasn't been addressed in this interesting thread and that is: Don't you think the kid needs a break from the mom? I don't mean babies because that is a little different. My kids are 3 and 5 so I know they can do without mom for a bit but I think they need to be away from me for a while. Any thoughts on that ladies?

Peace,
Shelbi

I had better clarify a little here before it comes acrossed in a way that I don't intend. I just think that kids can get bored when it is only mom with them day in and day out. If the kids get a chance to be with someone different, then it is more stimulating for them because it is different than the norm.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Breathe,

I hope you don't feel too offended or defensive about this thread.







I think you have started an interesting topic of discussion, and its gone far beyond the OP. I hear you on the "just needing to be heard" front









I also agree that when my child's needs come into conflict with my own that I will do for him instead of myself. I chose to bring him into the world, so my responsibility is to him until he can do for himself. It can be hard to come second (or third, or fourth.....) but it is the reality of having very small children. As they get older the balance will change, but for now they must come first


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

My kids are 3 and 5 so I know they can do without mom for a bit but I think they need to be away from me for a while. Any thoughts on that ladies?
I have a 3 yo and a 6 mo old. My 3 yo does not want to be away from me *ever*. He likes to be with other people (people he knows and trusts), but only if I am somewhere close by. He will not go to grandma's house alone, I need to be there with him (even if he ignores me the whole time). He will stay with dh, but only if he really has to. He doesn't even like going to sleep before me even though I stay with him until he falls asleep and rush back in if he wakes. He knows I am not with him. He is incredibly sensitive and I am his "buffer" to the outside world. He has such strong, intense emotions that he needs me to share those feelings with him. He just cannot handle them on his own. I am okay with that, it is my job to help him









My 6 mo old will be a different story. He is much more social and really enjoys interacting with other people. I will not leave him until he is able to communicate his needs to someone else (and only if he wouldn't need to nurse while I was away). He might very well want some time in another environment by that age.

Different children with different needs


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

hippiemom

I did notice that over Christmas break, when DD was home all the time, instead of going to daycare that she got bored with me. We tried to do lots of paydates and stuff, but it was hard because people have stuff going on. I think DD really enjoys the company of other people -kids in particular.

Breathe - hi there - My hormones make me ramble, did you notice? Plus I can't sleep, and I have no idea how I will handle two... I am due at the beginning of June, and now I am finally getting work to do. Go figure

Piglet68 - good point about what is AP and what is not. I agree.

OK I will try to not ramble this time


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Wilma -


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Wilma, Excellent point. I agree with your distinction between wants and needs, and maybe that will help me reframe things when I am feeling sorry for myself!

Beanma, Hi!







I love it when you chime in and admit to being a bit overwhelmed, bc as you know, I always think you have it all together! I've just never seen you rattled, so it helps me to know that you can and DO rattle! (We should pay together sometime -- I could use your "Mama of Two" wisdom!

hippiemom2, Yes, I absolutely agree that children sometimes need a break from mom. In fact, before ds's current octoous stage, I could see that he was getting bored with me. Still is sometimes, but wouldn't trade me for anyone else. He's conflicted! :LOL

akirasmama, I am so WITH you on the intense child. In fact, your description was perfect . . . can I use it to describe mine in the future?!?









Jacq, you don't ramble! I need to hear all your musings 'cause you're always a few stages ahread of me and you help me see what's comin'! Hang in there!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Great thread. I think the really important theme through many of the responses is "know yourself and know your child". Then, take that knowledge and do what works best for everyone involved. Sometimes that means working and searching for that elusive "win win" situation. They are out there, but sometimes it takes some really creative ways to get there. Sometimes it takes defining the goal (e.g. from "I need a vacation" to "what I really need is 3 hours to get my feet pampered") to something more realistic. And, unfortunately, sometimes it means admitting that you could wait for a month before getting your needs met and then working from there.

Anyway, I think that, much like other areas of life, "there is no one true way" (taken from my favorite fantasy author, Mercedes Lackey) for being the best possible mother (or father). And it helps as we read each others comments to remember that what works for one doesn't work for all. And it shouldn't because each of us is unique, each of our children is unique (even siblings have different reactions to stuff), each of our partners, communities, etc. is unique to us and we are strong, we are smart, we are capable of figuring it out for ourselves. AND its always nice to have input and ideas from other people.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Breathe,

I always like your posts and wanted to respond to your OP. Sorry, but I can't take the time to read the whole thread because I'm taking some time awya from MDC.

Anyway, I read your post and I see that you need a break. I have always wondered where the line between supporting mothers and being 100% AP really is. We talk LOTS about supporting mothers but I think under the surface "AP" tends to be hypocritical in this way. I have actually been told that the secret to AP-ing is only allowing yourself 4 hours sleep/day, WTF!

I think this is lame. I * really do * believe that a reasonably happy (rested, stimulated, etc.) mother makes a happy child. I think that one should sacrifice some of the AP ideals if that is what will best provide for mother and child.

No one can decide where your "AP" breaking point is but I'm sure everyone has one and a "good" mother should recognize it. You don't have to be "perfectly AP" or whatever that is. Do what works best for your family. I hope you've gotten that advice already.

Also, I think you are setting high standards for yourself when it comes to time away from the children. (I assume that you are taking about your own standards for being AP and not an issue with a special needs family)

If those are your standards, fine (but I can see why you are freaking out a little), but I know many, many great dedicatedly "AP" parents who have taken breaks from their children before 18, myself included! Maybe you could ease up on yourself.

If you just needed to vent, good. If you REALLY need a break - take one! If you would be a better parent after a break - taking a break is the most "AP" thing you can do. You don't need to go away to the Virgin Islands for a week to get a break either.

Do you want some help thinking up ways you can get some feeling of a break that is within your comfort level? I'd be happy to help. I've worked very hard creating some space for myself in a way that works for all members of my family. Good luck, now I may try to read this thread&#8230;man, MDC has pulled me back in&#8230;ahhh&#8230;


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Okay, Breathe

I just read your second post and have something to add. This (right now) may very well be more difficult for you than it is for some other mothers. Hell, parenting in general might be more difficult for you than it is for some other people. That doesn't mean you can't do it and it definitely doesn't mean you aren't a wonderful mom. If this is more difficult for you - it just means you work harder! How's that for a positive spin?

What I always try to keep in mind is that parents have their strengths and weaknesses along the way. Some parents are near disasters when it comes to infants but show strengths in the toddler stage. I was a near perfect "AP" parent until my daughter was 18 months and then started to feel really challenged.

I know my parenting will continue to ebb and flow and there *is* a long way to go but the challenges will keep changing. Some challenges will come easier for you than others, kwim?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I finished the tread. I can't decide if I relate to anyone here. I should go back on my break from MDC now&#8230;too many women here&#8230;joking&#8230;kind of&#8230;

I did just want to say one thing about toddlers "needs" because it is one of the things that bothers me about AP. A toddler's wants are not a toddler's needs in the way it was in infancy and it seems like that (and a few other things) have been skipped over here when people are talking child development here. I feel like AP really drops the ball in helping parents transition into toddlerhood. There are many needs that my toddler has that are partially created by DH and myself. Some of those things are positive and some not so positive. I still carry DC in a sling for hours/day sometimes. This is a mutual need of ours - no problem. OTO, DC "needs" to twiddle my nipple to fall asleep and every time she wakes up in the night (usually 5+ times/night). I do not feel that this is an age appropriate need and we're trying to help her change that "need". My daughter needs to be helped to go to the bathroom. This is an age appropriate need. Also, DC "needs" to be respected. She will not tolerate anyone not respecting her feelings. This is a need I think we helped create but it is not one that I wish to see changed - ever.

This is a rant, obviously. Back on topic, I guess my biggest peeve in the AP world is how it doesn't really recognize the individual needs of mothers (and how it seems to be focused on infancy and applied far too literally to toddlerhood). I am up late, with the energy to come to MDC and help DC with some intense sleep problems only because someone took DC to the park today while I "worked" in the garden. Being in the garden alone is so peaceful for me. Just one hour has done the trick for hopefully a few days.

I am no different from my child. Sometimes my wants are my needs. And there's nothing wrong with that. After reading this thread I don't know if I'm agreeing with some of you or disagreeing. All I know is that I feel solid in the belief that if I take the breaks that I need (even if it is occasionally at the expense of my child's temporary well being) I am the better parent&#8230;for my child.

This is also an issue for me partially because I am the mother of a girl. I often mother in the way I would want my daughter to mother. When I feel the pull towards "martyrdom" or when I feel like my essential self is slipping away in place of being the perfect "AP" parent I think of my daughter and I make the choices that I would want her to make. I guess it is like parenting backwards but it really helps me.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I did just want to say one thing about toddlers "needs" because it is one of the things that bothers me about AP. A toddler's wants are not a toddler's needs in the way it was in infancy and it seems like that (and a few other things) have been skipped over here when people are talking child development here. I feel like AP really drops the ball in helping parents transition into toddlerhood.*
ITA with the above. Anyone up for writing an AP for toddlers book?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*What is NOT consistent with AP is leaving your child with someone when you know they will suffer for it, that they will likely end up CIO b/c nobody can console them but you, and basically saying to yourself "I don't care, I need a break".

*
It is possible for a mother to need a break AND care that their child might suffer some from the break. There are SO many situations where a mother and child's needs can be in conflict and the child looses out. If that is out of the AP "rules" then I guess mothers who work out of the home are not consistent with AP?

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I have not heard a single parent here say that when they leave their child, they just know the kid is miserable but so what, I need a break.
*
Every mother I know who was left their child for a new time span as worried that the child might be miserable while they were gone. Sometimes both benefit from a push.

I don't mean to single you out, Piglet, but these are just some examples of where I feel an undercurrent of hypocrisy directed towards mothers who need/want a break in the AP world.

When it comes to discussing who's needs should come first it is important to keep in mind that all needs are not created equal. Every family has to weigh there own but I would worry about a family were all of a toddler's needs always come first.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

OMG -- IdentityCrisisMama -- I was actually coming here to post the EXACT same thing!!

We are SO hard on ourselves -- and I'm certainly no exception. I gone to bed in tears more times than I can count because I felt like I wasn't a good enough mother that day. I try so hard to be gentle with my kids -- but I somehow manage to forget myself.

I've been thinking a lot about this thread in the past week and I've been thinking about the kind of advice that I'd give my own daughter if she came to me feeling burnt out on mothering. I imagined what I'd tell her -- and it's pretty powerful stuff!!

I'd put my arms around her and say "of course, you need a break -- mothering is exhausting and you put so much of yoursefl into it. You deserve a rest. You deserve to refuel. You deserve to be nutured." I'd tell her to be gentle with herself.

I then try to imagine telling myself the same thing -- and I just want to cry with relief and gratitude.

Of course, then I start thinking about all the reasons that I really don't deserve a break....







and I forget about being gentle







.

It's a start though....


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

IdentityCrisisMama - THanks with the wonderful posts! And I couldn't agree more about sometimes needing a 'push' - heck even as an adult I need someone to 'push' me to do things that I *know* I would probably like but am too afraid to try (Like taking a photography class that I just signed up for







)

Quote:

It is possible for a mother to need a break AND care that their child might suffer some from the break. There are SO many situations where a mother and child's needs can be in conflict and the child looses out.
This is sooooo true! It can't always be win-win! For example my son strated Montessori this week - and this moring he was ADEMENT that he did NOT want to go. When DH dropped him off he was crying and upset......but he left knowing that it was temporary. And sure enough I picked him up and again he loved it and had a great day! So how are we to know who are children will *actually* do in a situation if we do not allow it to even occur? I think everyone is afraid of the unknow (mommy not being around) but that is because they don't know what the alternative can be (they have lots of fun doing new and different things with daddy, gradma, some other trusted cargiver)

Quote:

What is NOT consistent with AP is leaving your child with someone when you know they will suffer for it, that they will likely end up CIO b/c nobody can console them but you, and basically saying to yourself "I don't care, I need a break".
I have done this - but it was not that I didn't care - in fact it was the opposite - I cared so much that I HAD to take a break to be a better mother! Better to have a child miserable for a few hours then to have a mother falling deeper into anguish because she is running on empty! And yes - my child has cried (and alot too!) - but she *was* being consoled, she was being tended to by the people who loves her just as much as I do........we can't all win and sometimes mommy *does* have to come first!


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

IdentityCrisisMama - thank you for joining in... you've added a great perspective to this discussion. I was going to write something similar tonight.

One thing I wanted to mention is that my toddler used to ask for "nana" (nurse) everytime she saw me sit or lay down. It was a constant thing, and it would happen even if she had just finished nursing for a long time. So I would stand up, and suggest we do something else. She would happily go to the new activity. It was almost like when I somtimes eat out of boredom! We've now cut back the nursing to before and after sleep (2 naps and night-time) and we are both loving it. Lately, however, she's asked to nurse during other times, and I ask her if she is hungry and wants to eat lunch or dinner... and she says yes. I don't think she knows how to tell me that she wants to eat food yet, she can only ask me for nana, so that is what she does. This process of discovering how to communicate our wants, needs, and boundries has been evolving to suit us both. And we are both happy.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I have to agree that where I find people have the most confusion about attachment parenting is the toddler transition. But for me, I have always felt the AP message is very clear: the goal is to develop a strong bond and attachment to your child, to foster security and self-esteem by providing them with a strong base of trust. The end result is that when he's older you to truly KNOW your child, his inner spirit, so that you can make decisions that only YOU can make, because only YOU know whether that situation is going to work for your child or not. You can't write a book on that because every child is different and nobody knows them better than you, their mother.

I just feel that alot of you are getting caught up in rules and definitions and what YOU perceive AP to be. And I have to say that many of your perceptions do not match my own. So I think it's pointless to argue about how AP says this, or undermines you like that, or sets you up for failure, etc. I think this sort of message, which creeps around these boards alot, is really doing a disservice and potentially misrepresenting a message that needs to be heard by more parents and by our society in general.

Breathe's original post really laid out the problem quite succinctly:

...it's not really what AP "says" you are supposed to do, it's what you *know* and feel in your heart that you are supposed to do. That is different for everybody, but all of us face challenges sometimes when having to hold up to our own high standards. That is what strong values are all about: they don't mean much if they are easy to do and never challenged.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Breathe, from this thread and the 'SAHM waste of...' thread, I say you need a break, who cares what anyone else thinks? Maybe easier said than done but think about ten years from now, looking back on this time and I'll bet you'd advise yourself to get away a bit.

That's what jumps out at me, anyway.

Edited to add: I find Dr. Sears highly suspect in his lack of anthropology for his assertions and in general, I believe he is a money grubbing, out of touch, a-hole but anyway









This sort of statement really hurts us as mothers, imo:

Quote:

"we have found that attachment parented children are likely to be: smarter, healthier, more sensitive, more empathetic, easier to discipline, more bonded to people than things"
It just isn't that simple.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:

You can't write a book on that because every child is different and nobody knows them better than you, their mother.
And fathers are what, chopped liver? I think my biggest problem with a lot of what has been said is that is assumes that fathers can't "parent" just as well as mothers. I get all the break time I need because I know that my husband is just as capable of consoling my children, feeding them, diapering them, bathing them, getting them to sleep... He may do it differently than me, but equally well.

I think those who equal AP with AM (parenting with mothering) are doing themselves, their children and their husbands/partners a big disservice. Not only does mom get trapped in the "I need a break but can't take one" trap, but dad gets shortchanged too. Most of all though, children get short changed because they end up feeling attached to only 1 rather than 2 people.

Caveats to acknowledge that there are single parents out there that this doesn't apply to, that some fathers/partners are not as eager to be involved as mine is, and that I am incredibly lucky.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I know that my husband is just as capable of consoling my children, feeding them, diapering them, bathing them, getting them to sleep... He may do it differently than me, but equally well.
I couldn't agree more!







*AND* they get the opportunity to form their own bond! Which is *JUST AS* important as the bond to the mother!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

For the record -- and for anyone's who's still readng this far -- I want to update those of you who are worried about me and tell you that I am feeling almost completely better. I no longer feel that I need a vacation from my child. If I could delete the OP, I would (which is why I said that I bet I would regret posting it!).

Did I do anything drastically different? Nope. Just the passage of time helped . . . and the fact that I'm now 14 wks pg . . . DUH! So in fact, all I really needed to do was vent (which I should have been more clear about from the outset) and continue to exercise and get my short breaks. I have NO doubt that the feeling will return -- it is definitely part of a cycle for me -- but truth be told, it really was not as big a deal as it may have sounded, and it did not require extra amounts of time away from my son. Go figure.

Piglet, I think it's important to dissect and question the tenets of AP, just like one would with any other prescribed approach to life (often presented as dogma), and so much of the AP lit and rhetoric IS a prescription, usually accompanied by guarantees for good results. I know what you mean about not wanting to turn newbies away, but I don't think we do anyone a service by hiding the criticisms of the approach.

Kind of like how no one (especially LLL, in my experience) wants pregnant moms to know that BF can hurt like HELL for a while, even if nothing is wrong. But if we don't tell them, and then they experience pain, are we not setting them up for diappointment and disillusionment? And especially self-blame? I have had the opportunity to formally and informally mentor several new moms and some of them have quit BF after only a few days "bc it hurts" and I was the first person to tell them that it can hurt for a while. They felt like failures.

And I can see the same danger when AP is presented as dogma. Some people think Sears is dogmatic - I find "The Natural Child" to be far worse - and others think Mothering and MDC (!!!) are the worst! So it appears to me that when we can spinkle concerns, questions, or even doubts within the discussion, we are actually helping people to examine their beliefs and be able to accept the parts of the approach that work for them and their children while rejecting the rest . . . and as you said, that's AP.

Of course, I have also found (and heard from others) that new moms take in only what their brains can absorb, so if they're not ready to question, they don't even hear all this stuff.

Oh and Piglet, I really appreciate your distinction about our values not really meaning much until we have to work for them. I will be pondering that and reminding myself of that. I have really been regretting the title of this thread, bc I didn't mean it *nearly* as literally as some people took it, and so I thought of this analogy to explain how I was feeling:

It's like if I said, "Darn! I really want to cheat on my husband with the 19 yr old pool boy! (Are the 10 commandments to blame?!?)"

See, it was silly, bc that's a ridiculous thing to say! No, AP is not to blame. It's the fact that I know in my heart that leaving my son right now for an extended period is not the *RIGHT* thing to do. You (plural) just gotta take my word for it. I promise I'll take your word when you tell me what's best for your family!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom_
*I think my biggest problem with a lot of what has been said is that is assumes that fathers can't "parent" just as well as mothers.*
I TA TOO! I was thinking that for a while but didn't even want to go there. All I kept thinking is that I hope there are no gay male paretns reading this thread, LOL!

Anyway, it seems like this thread wasn't really about mothers needing breaks.

I worry about some of the parents that felt really consoled by another mother's need for a break and then found the other mother didn't really need it after all (sorry, Breathe, but I that's how I would feel).

I can tell those mothers that I NEED breaks and I take them and I'm proud as heck about it.

If anyone feels the need for a support thread for parents who need/want time away from their children&#8230;I'll be happy to join in.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hang on, ICMama . . . I never said I don't need breaks. In fact, I said I get DAILY breaks PLUS dh and I get a date almost every single weekend. And I can't function without at least that much time to myself. What I said was that *in this case* it turned out that I didn't really need a week out of the country. But I hope I also made it clear that if you determine that you DO need a week away and that it's the best thing for your family, then I believe you and I'll help you find cheap tickets online! I'm in no way withdrawing my support of mamas who need more time than they're getting . . . just attempting to clarify that I am in fact not falling apart at the seams (and that AP is not to blame). Good gracious, this CD is skipping!

Also putting in my vote for mamas to be able to VENT and RANT and RAVE about how @#$%ing hard motherhood is without being attacked and advised that there is something wrong. IT'S NORMAL TO FEEL CRAZY!!!! :LOL

I know I'll be back in the future with more vents, and I look forward to supporting you all in yours, so bring 'em on!


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I worry about some of the parents that felt really consoled by another mother's need for a break and then found the other mother didn't really need it after all (sorry, Breathe, but I that's how I would feel).


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Sorry for the double post - it is not allowing me to edit for some reason....anyway

Quote:

I worry about some of the parents that felt really consoled by another mother's need for a break and then found the other mother didn't really need it after all (sorry, Breathe, but I that's how I would feel).
Thanks~! I have to say - I do feel like I poured out my heart for my actual literal *need* for a break.......and am now kind of regretting it......Anyone up for starting a new thread I'll go and do it.....

Grace


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Grace, did you see my last post above? We posted at the same time.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Breathe - please know that I do appreicate the thread - and it is definalty GOOD to be able to rant about what is bothering us! I am happy that you were able to get it out and move on









I OTOH am in the 'falling apart at the seams' group and just feel a little 'naked' now that it seems that others are not in the same boat - as I thought they were....







:


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Those stinkin cross posts LOL!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Grace, I'm sorry you're feeling exposed. That definitely sucks. I never meant to pull the rug out from under you. My "I feel better" post was mainly to put a hold on all the specific advice which was being aimed at me, esp since I seem to be on the upswing.

But it's just ME who's saying I feel better *for now*. There are still 4 other pages of posts from mamas who understand and totally relate! And *I* STILL relate! I don't think I have to be in the midst of my own crisis to help you with yours, and I don't just forget the pain of feeling so trapped and helpless. Let's remember, too, that you already HAVE your second child and mine is just a wiggly little fish who can't say No or tantrum or contradict me or try to CONSUME me. (ah-hem. like someone else I know)

It seems to me like you have some AWESOME coping strategies, Mama, and I think your brave example is bound to help others who are too overwhelmed to think of alternatives to the desperation. I personally need to do some hard thinking about how to avoid getting into this destructive loop again so quickly, and so your ideas have helped me begin thinking about little changes to make (and possibly big ones, too, like preschool!).

So please know that I'm holding you in my thoughts and sending peaceful, restorative vibes your way. And I do hope you'll continue to share honestly.

And by all means, you guys should start a new thread if you want to, but I hope it won't be done with a feeling of stomping away from this thread where it felt like you were betrayed. I would be heartbroken if that were the end result of these many days of discussion.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

And BTW . . . I am always just somewhere along the continuum of falling apart at the seams. I thought ALL mothers were -- whether it's your filthy kitchen floor or sexless marriage or actual moments of pulling your hair out by the roots as you're locked in your bathroom. But whether or not I've actually completely lost it is probably just a judgement call!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*And by all means, you guys should start a new thread if you want to, but I hope it won't be done with a feeling of stomping away from this thread where it felt like you were betrayed. I would be heartbroken if that were the end result of these many days of discussion.*
No, that isn't what I was saying. I just had to put my feelings out there about the way this thread went.

Graceoc, you start the thread...I'll be there to help send it in a positive direction. Breathe, you come by the next time you need a break. No hard feelings, I hope...I just had to say what I said.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Change that...I'm starting the thread...Parenting Issues...now...


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I just did too LOL!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Where is yours? Mine sounded SO much better in my head. I'll look at it tomorrow and maybe we can blend the two or I"ll just remove mine.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

graceoc: I had meant to post this but never did....i read your post about the conversation you had with your DH and the plans you made to try and improve things. I wanted to commend you. Not only were your ideas wonderful, but the way in which you and your partner were able to communicate, empathize, and work together at solving the problem is simply a wonderful model of how marriage and partnership should be!









breathe: I so appreciate this thread and your posts. of course we need to debate and bring up the issues that come with AP. I guess I just get defensive when I see people misconstruing AP and then blaming it for their unhappiness or parental struggles. nobody "makes" anybody "do AP", we do it because it speaks to our hearts, and parenting is about following your heart. but perhaps I'm just too much of an AP fan, lol.

Now I'm gonna say something unpopular









I actually think that, biologically, women are designed to be the primary caregivers for infants and infants are designed to bond with the mother. in fact, in most mammals and particularly primate groups the males rarely participate in child rearing or care - when they are around it's to care for the mother so that she may care for the infant. And of course men can't make breastmilk.









which is NOT to say that dad's can't help out a great deal, do just about everything that mothers do, and help relieve an overburdened mom for a bit. men compliment the parenting relationship by bringing a unique style and perspective to parenting. but i honestly believe in my heart that there are just some things that only mothers can do, and that _in general_ babies have evolved to more readily bond with mothers than fathers, at least in the VERY early stages of infanthood.

On the one hand, that's no excuse for men to shy away from diaper changing or child care. But it's also not quite as simple as suggesting that men are able to provide all that a mother can provide. JMHO.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

women are designed to be the primary caregivers for infants and infants are designed to bond with the mother
I think you are correct - but many of us are talking about children BEYOND infancy......so what age is that exactly? I'm not totally sure.....

A little funny on that topic - one of the monkey's at the zoo just had a baby a few months ago. Every time we had seen them the baby would be cluched to the mother - usually nursing. When too many people would come over the father would put his arm around the pair and 'protect' them from the crowd - often ushering them to the far end of the exhibit. Well this past time we went it was a new scene. The baby was jumping and playing with the dad almost the whole time! And would occassionally go to the mother for a quick nursing and then swing back over to dad! It was so cute to see this 'family' in action! And the best part was the sign in from that talked about the baby and how she would nurse for 2 years - and that the parents were mated for life....


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:

I actually think that, biologically, women are designed to be the primary caregivers for infants and infants are designed to bond with the mother. in fact, in most mammals and particularly primate groups the males rarely participate in child rearing or care - when they are around it's to care for the mother so that she may care for the infant. And of course men can't make breastmilk
I don't disagree with this, actually. BUT there are two things that it doesn't cover. One is that the OP has a toddler, not a new infant, as did many of the subsequent posters. As the story above points out, things change as children get older. The other is that we live in a modern era and aren't, in fact, living in a jungle. True that dads don't lactate, but they can give a bottle of expressed breastmilk. While bottles are sometime controversial around here, if you are desparate for a break they are probably the lesser evil, if you think they are a problem at all. (As a PT WOHM, obviously bottles aren't a problem at all for me.) Biology does not HAVE to be destiny if we don't chose to make it so. Also, just because an infant might have a primary bond with mom, it doesn't mean they can't have also have a bond with dad (or another caregiver, for that matter). Luckily, humans are capable of forming bonds with more than one person at a time.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*
Beanma, Hi!







I love it when you chime in and admit to being a bit overwhelmed, bc as you know, I always think you have it all together! I've just never seen you rattled, so it helps me to know that you can and DO rattle! (We should pay together sometime -- I could use your "Mama of Two" wisdom!
*
:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

me!! :LOL :LOL have it all together :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL !!!

here i sit in this pigsty of a house with my half nekkid three year old putting the baby bananas she wanted to buy at whole foods on her dollhouse potty while tumbleweeds of dog fur float by and my almost 16 lber 4mo old is nibbling at my nipple and surely soaking in a wet diaper, but my back is killing me and she's dozing so i'm using that as an excuse not to change her. i don't think i even come close to having anything all together. i'm just trying to keep us from getting hurt as it all falls down around our ears.

i don't think i've yelled at anybody today, except maybe the dog. i have yelled at my kiddo, though







. i've found with 2 that my patience is worn very thin and i snap much quicker especially when dd1 is on 3 yr old time and dawdling and dilly dallying and dd2 starts to fuss. argh! got it all together -- NO. rattled plenty -- YES!

i always think YOU have it all together. i'm barely hanging on by a thread myself. i'd love to get together and play sometime. we're reviving the API bookclub and just getting started reading "Nonviolent Communication". got a few new mothering mamas in the group. sometimes i can make it out to the monday morning playgroups before it's not morning any more and everybody's left the playground...









off to read the rest of this thread before nappy time calls...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Graceoc_
*I think you are correct - but many of us are talking about children BEYOND infancy......so what age is that exactly? I'm not totally sure.....*
me neither, lol. seriously.

if you are already using bottles you do sort of have an advantage. i never used them, not becuase I think they are evil or anything but i never had any reason to. still, by the time DD was about 3 or 4 months old, she could be away from me for at least 90 minutes and not need to nurse. what made it easier was she also fell asleep in the sling any time she was in it. So DH would take her for walks, she'd fall asleep and they'd be gone up to two hours sometimes. It felt like a whole day off, i didn't even know what to do with myself!


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, Piglet68, I have to respectfully point out that I am not a Chimpanzee, a cat or a lemur.
And I just do not agree with this mammalian biological determinism.

One can state the obvious, that women breastfeed.. as though that somehow dictates a singular parenting style.. but for **** Sapiens, it just doesn't.

Humans are infinitely plastic and adaptable. They have come up with all sorts of family, parenting and work/home configurations over time and across cultures.
Our very brains change to adapt to cultural and individual circumstance... we have all sorts of resources to draw on that nutrias, dogs and gorillas do not.

There is really only so much I can learn about parenting from primate studies. I am not interested in parenting like an orangutan. I am interested in parenting in whatever way I believe best for MY child. No one else's, just mine. At this point, I pretty much reject ALL labels and do not adhere rigidly to any parenting philosophy.

I believe in:
Close bonding between BOTH parents and the child, beginning by meeting all needs in the infant year. So, no cio.. yes to co-sleeping, babywearing and breastfeeding. For ME.

Then, as the child matures, I believe in watching/listening to the child and following your own instincts. I believe in reading all kinds of books and using whatever feels authentic to you. I believe a mindful parent will KNOW when the child is ready to be left with others.. what kind of breaks he or she needs, etc etc etc. I believe in changing your mind and rethinking your strategy if something isn't working for your child. I believe in flexibility.

I do NOT believe in rigid gender roles, rigid ideology, biological determinism or blind rule following. I do not believe in labeling or judging others.. though I reserve the right to disagree with what they are doing or saying.
I believe in being educated and open-minded.

I believe in being gentle with and respectful of children.

I guess there isn't any label for me.
And that's fine.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Asherah-









You very eloquently and succinctly encapsulated many of my feelings (and it's not even my thread!) on this topic. I am learning more each day of my mothering. And I thank this community for getting all these wise, loving, mothers topgether "under one roof", so-to-speak.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by beanma_

here i sit in this pigsty of a house with my half nekkid three year old putting the baby bananas she wanted to buy at whole foods on her dollhouse potty while tumbleweeds of dog fur float by and my almost 16 lber 4mo old is nibbling at my nipple and surely soaking in a wet diaper, but my back is killing me and she's dozing so i'm using that as an excuse not to change her. i don't think i even come close to having anything all together. i'm just trying to keep us from getting hurt as it all falls down around our ears.

i don't think i've yelled at anybody today, except maybe the dog.

i'm barely hanging on by a thread myself.

















naking so xcuse the errors.
whoa, this could be my post tho' i have but 1 babe but 5 LARGE DOGS- they count as a few kids, right?

i need a break but ds is going thru sep. anxiety w/me.
he only naps when he's being held.
we have no family help close by.
ds has always been a velcro kid - he'll only stay in a sling/carrier so long.
my big breaks are taking an hour long bath.
DH IS GREAT & will take ds always but ds is needy.
we're moving in a mon & i'm freaking cos we have no time to pack.
ds hate the carseat unless someone is back w/him so we cant really take off for the day. ds screams until he pukes







:
in the seat - he had really bad reflux when he was younger.
i was a single mom w/ my dd & yearned to be home w/ her.
now that i'm a sahm.... i'm overwhelmed w/ this baby.
we all go to b & n bookstoore & out to eat but i would love a date w/ dh !!!!!!!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

All I'm saying is, babies are born into this world expecting the Stone Age.

The cornerstone of AP is that the needs of infants haven't changed along with the whims of society and culture. Yes, there is variability but you can bet your lunch money that the vast majority of infants still crave what their ancestor's infants craved 150,000 years ago: to nurse, to sleep next to a warm body, to have their distress cries responded to immediately and consistently, etc. Obviously there are exceptions, there always will be, and it's the parents job to decide what the child's needs are and to meet them. Some babies don't like to cosleep. But the majority do. Why? Because that's how they are wired, because they are mammals, and millions of years of mammalian evolution have made them that way.

My DH was as involved as any father could possibly be - he didn't even work OTH so he was there as often as I was. He changed diapers, he babywore, he rocked her to sleep countless hours along with me. Still, DD showed a distinct preference for me, she was soothed more readily by me, cried less with me, etc. until she had outgrown her dependent state. She is still like that most of the time. There are, of course, always exceptions but it's completely consistent with biology - all other things being equal, most infants have a preference for mother.

_edited to add:_ I don't say this in the spirit of "you moms have to be stuck to your babies 24/7" but more in the spirit of "why can't I get away from baby for 10 minutes without him/her having a meltdown? well, mama, it's not your fault, its just the way babies tend to be". if your baby is content with papa as much as with you, then heck - take that break!









I'm not saying we should "parent like an orangutang", but we should also never forget under what conditions infants evolved. A mere 5000 years of "civilization" is simply not enough to change their basic biology. It's no instruction book, that's for sure, but it does give one a helpful "starting point", IMHO.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

well said piglet


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Sheesh. You'd think the human race would have just died out, with so many people ignoring the dictates of basic biology and just parenting any old way.
How DID we manage to survive?
\
Piglet68, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Because I think you are making a leap from biological needs to cultural dictates that simply isn't supportable... I do not think it is supportable to say that because babies need X,Y or Z.. there is only ONE WAY to provide those things.. only one way to parent.. and that you know what it is.

Just don't buy it, sorry. Babies may EXPECT the stone age... but I don't LIVE in the stone age. (And by the way, I don't WANT to.) I don't LIVE in a baboon troop. I am not one of many many females in a household headed by a dominant male. I am not part of a community of hunter-gatherers. I have to parent here in the 21-st century. Now, I do co-sleep, baby-wear, nurse and respond to my baby's distress cries.. So does DH.. well, except for the nursing part. But you know what? There is this cool, modern day invention called a breast pump. It allowed DH to feed DS breastmilk! Radical, huh?

I think the biology=destiny argument is a huge contributor to the mommy wars. And that it is ultimately very very unproductive.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*to nurse, to sleep next to a warm body, to have their distress cries responded to immediately and consistently, etc.*
I agree that these are the very most important needs of an infant but I also agree that we need to look at our modern community. For some parents it is not even possible to nurse but the child's needs for food and contact can be met in other ways. Also, my DC was nursed by other people other than myself. As far as human closeness and responsiveness, those things can be met by other people.

I would be interested to know if, biologically speaking, infants are inclined to be attached to only one person. Does anyone know? I have read that in a tribal setting it is normal for children to become attached people who are not their parents. Perhaps the better thing is to just ask about the nature of a child's attachment in these situations rather than assuming that only significantly attached person is always the mother. With most children today (especially after infancy) I would imagine that their attachment is rather complex even at MDC.

I also agree that the biological issue of attachment to the mother can _seem_ unsupportive because it almost follows that the mother should not leave her child because of biology.

This is a problem because of how most of us live today. I realize that our child's needs haven't changed but our community surely has. We have moved further and further away from a community that supports mothers at the same time that we have a culture that tends to isolate mothers. So I think it is good to partially base your parenting on a baby's biological needs (obviously) it is also really important to factor the changing cultural needs of the family.

I know it is rare and I am lucky but my infant child was (for a few months) almost equally attached to another person. But, the original post was about the mother of a toddler. I hope that soon my child will become more attached to some other people (especially her father). I know from my relationship to my parents that is entirely possible for the child to evolve into equal attachment to father and mother.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by asherah_
*I do not think it is supportable to say that because babies need X,Y or Z.. there is only ONE WAY to provide those things.. only one way to parent.. and that you know what it is.*
Hey, that's not what I said at all!







If that's the message I'm sending, then I'd better restate my case because I sure as heck NEVER believed that there is only one way to parent!!









In fact, what I have repeatedly said is that the Parent who KNOWS their child does what that child needs. Biology just gives us a big hint as to where to start. In other words, instead of a crib being the default sleeping situation and cosleeping the "last resort", biology tells us that the logical place for baby to sleep is right by your side. HOWEVER, if your babe is happier in a crib, by all means put him/her there! That is listening to your child! And if your child cries everytime Daddy tries to take care of him for more than half an hour, then accept the fact that baby isn't ready to be away from you and that this is NORMAL and NATURAL (and that this too shall pass) and not your "fault". OTOH, if your 6 month old has a ball with Daddy then take advantage of your luck and go to the Mall!









Quote:

I think the biology=destiny argument is a huge contributor to the mommy wars.
I don't think biology=destiny. I think it's a good guideline, however. When people fail to take biology into account, that's when you start hearing the ridiculous. Things like:

"babies have to sleep in cribs otherwise their mothers would roll over and smother them".

or, "if you hold that baby too much you will spoil them".

or, "babies need to be taught how to soothe themselves back to sleep without any help"

or, "if they are dry, fed, and warm then they are crying for no reason"

or, "its not healthy to be with your baby all the time!"

or, "babies should be sleeping through the night after the first six weeks"

This is what "culture" has brought us. Misconceptions, old wives' tales, and a complete dissociation from the reality that infants are creatures with biological needs. Needs that are as plain as day if you simply look at the context within which those needs evolved.

You can't keep your goldfish in a dog crate. You can't expect your dog to live on a diet of carrots. You wouldn't try to take your rabbit for walks to the local "rabbit park" where he can socialize with other rabbits.

So why, oh why, do we as a society insist that babies are something they are not? Why is it that what we consider "normal" parenting practices, aren't "normal" at all?

What kills me is that 99% of the people espousing these ridiculous "myths" of parenting would never DREAM of say, taking a newborn litter of kittens and putting each one of them in a separate corner of the room, forcing the mother not to respond to their distress cries, bringing them to nurse on a "schedule" all in the name of "creating independence". Anybody who has had kittens in the house knows you don't need to prod them into venturing around the house!! So why can we not see that human babies are the same way??

I agree with you that biology does NOT = destiny. It's just something that should be used as a reference, a starting point. And a reminder that you can't fight Mother Nature!









[edited to add, as if I haven't said enough...] I realized after re-reading your post that you were making a point about biology dictating rigid gender roles (I think?) and I wanted to say that I don't believe mothers have to be stuck alone to care for their children with no support. It actually *isn't* consistent with our nature for mothers to be so isolated. So perhaps we do agree on something!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes, but is bringing the biological need of an infant into a post about a mother of a toddler needing a break - I know the post evolved quite a bit- but still, isn't this an example of a backlash mentality that obstructs support (and growth)?

I am feeling like I'm perceived as argumentative on this thread and I know I have been rather critical in some ways but now I'm not even sure what I'm criticizing. I agree with almost everything everyone has said but I still thing there are other things to look at.

In the "AP" world you are usually (hopefully) going to find a very attached child. For me the ideal would be a child who has many attachments but the reality in our culture is that the person will be the mother (although I don't love the assumption).

But, what happens in our community when the mother is the only person the child is attached to and that mother "knows what the child needs" but the mother needs some time away? I think this has been the question all along. And it is a question that needs some solutions.

Yes, I agree that there are times that the child's needs for attachment should come first. There are times (like in Breathe's case) that the need passes as many things do in parenting. But, there are also times where the mother's needs must be seriously addressed. And, to clear up any negativity, I think this thread is a really good start!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

ICM - you're right, and I did try to make sure it was clear I was referring to an infant and not a toddler. I started out responding to aussiemum's question about why it seems so "AP" to not be away from your child.

and, fwiw, I don't perceive you as being argumentative at all. it's important to bring different viewpoints to a discussion or nobody learns much, and I think you've done a fine job

I think your last point was really important too - that when mother is the only one that baby can be with, what happens when mama needs a break? is there any way we can make a child bond equally with others? i don't know the answer to this. i'm inclinced to think that some children, maybe even most children, simply prefer their mothers. i'm only basing this on my own experience with DH being as equal a caregiver as can be (and yet I'm still the one DD goes to first when she is upset or needs comforting) and the fact that so many mothers report on the "clingyness" of their children, their inability to be soothed by others. but then, since we were never meant to raise babies in isolation, i wonder the same things you do.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Thanks for the clarification, Piglet68.
We are more in agreement than I initially thought.

Re ICM's point:
I would think that infants... while biologically programmed to form
a primary attachment to the mother.. are also plastic enough to form strong attachments to others if allowed to do so.
After all, mothers die... tragedies happen.. and babies survive and bond with other caregivers. It is to a baby's survival advantage to be plastic in this way, even if the primary attachment is to mom.

And that is why I do think it is important to have both parents bond with the baby early, along with any other extended family members or trusted caregivers. I think you can encourage this even while breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and being an otherwise primarily attached mama. I think that is healthy for both mother and baby.. and that is why I do object to rigid gender roles and interpretations of "attachment parenting" that really mean "attachment mothering."
\
I also have to say that I did not come to AP from an intellectual place.. never did biological research... much more intuitive for me. I just felt in my gut that a newborn would rather sleep with loved ones than in another room, alone in a crib. And I never feel obliged to justify myself based on science. It is just what works for me and mine.. and that's enough.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I found I didn't want to be away from my babies when they were in the young dependent stage.

As they grew they became attached to other people in our family and had no difficulty being left alone for awhile. As they grew even older that time became longer.

It just seemed to work out in a nice way.

db


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

I haven't read beyond the first page but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I think there is a big difference between needing a break as a mom for your sanity and just leaving your toddler alone for self-indulgent vacations with DH.

For Valentine's Day, DH gave me a night at a nearby inn. It was the first time I had been away from dd overnight since she was born, with the exception of surgery. As much as I love co-sleeping and ENing, I also feel touched out from time to time. I spent the evening gorging on Italian food, reading and sleeping. And DH appreciated the one-on-one time with dd, who is very attached to her daddy. And he is so involved that I didn't have to leave him with a single instruction.









I guess my point is that I think we all need to recharge our batteries once in a while and I don't think there is shame in admitting that. I think that having a break to recharge those batteries so you can continue to be an effective parent is very different from leaving a child with a sitter time and time again to "party" or goof off.

Anyways, I hope you are feeling better.


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