# Car Seats- I guess I missed something?!



## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

In another thread a mama pointed out to me that my son is not in the right seat. Okay... so ... what am I doing wrong?? I want him to be safe but I don't know what's right.

I live in CA...

My son is only 2.5 years old but he weighs 40lbs and is 40" tall. Yes, he's huge.

I did have him in the Britax Marathon until just a few months ago. I moved DD into the Marathon and got him a high back Graco booster seat. The sales associates assure me it was an appropriate seat for him even when I told him he was only 2.5 years old.

If I had him rear facing, his knees would be in his chest so he definitely needs to face forward but then in what kind of seat??? When I look at the charts, most of the boosters start at 30lbs so at 40lbs, I don't get why this isn't okay.

Trust me... I wish he was smaller!!! He still likes to be carried and it is back breaking picking this kid up... He's not obese or anything, he's just solid like a rock.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Your dc needs to be AT LEAST 4 years old to ride safely in a booster, and even then, I wouldn't feel more comfortable until coser to 6. He can no longer ride rearfacing because the highest weight for that is 35lbs. But, he still very much needs to be harnessed. There are LOTS of options - britax regent, britax frontier, graco nautilus, radian 65/80 are all off the top of my head and would harness him for a quite a while after.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Yes, he definitely needs to be harnessed. I recommend the Britax Frontier. He can be harnessed up to 80lbs and/or 53" tall in that seat. Then, you can convert it to a BPB, so you'd get a lot of use out of it.

If you can stand it, go to youtube and search "importance of a 5-point harness". I warn you though, the videos are heartbreaking.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

okay i'm totally not trying to be argumentative here but i just visited the Graco site and it says from 3 years old... (yes I know DS is two... but why do they say one thing and mamas here are saying age 4?) I just want to know why the conflicting info...

Easy on the flames... I seriously didn't know all of this. I should have known better than to trust people who work at babies R Us. With two babies, I just don't have the internet time I used to for doing all my "mommy" research.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Cekimom, first off, no flames







. What are the laws regarding children and restraints in your state? In my province, children have to be at least 4 and weigh 40lbs (both, not either or) to be moved to a belt positioning booster. This is the reccomendation in every province that has laws regarding car seat usage.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 
okay i'm totally not trying to be argumentative here but i just visited the Graco site and it says from 3 years old... (yes I know DS is two... but why do they say one thing and mamas here are saying age 4?) I just want to know why the conflicting info...

Easy on the flames... I seriously didn't know all of this. I should have known better than to trust people who work at babies R Us. With two babies, I just don't have the internet time I used to for doing all my "mommy" research.

No flames, I see where you are coming from.









Firstly, it depends on your states laws. Secondly, it depends on the seat. But you do not have to make a step up from RF to FF or harness to BPB just because the seat or the law says you can. That's just the _minimum_ that the law/carseat came up with. For instance, my son is 3.5 and ~25lbs. According to the law and probably all the seats on the market, he can legally and "safely" be forward facing right now. BUT there are seats out there that allow him to continue RF'ing and because that's what's safest, that's what we are doing. He will not be FF'ing until he reaches the MAX (35lbs in this case), not the minimum that the law or his seat requires, kwim?

Please consider having him harnessed again. It is SO much safer.


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## jakesmama (May 9, 2005)

my 6 yo ds is harnessed in a Britax Husky (now Regent) and they are great. In dp's car we have a high backed booster.
ITA with Carly, you want to follow the law and car seat manufacturer guidelines as a minimum for safety requirements. Each graduation to a new seat is moving toward a less and less safe option so these graduations should only happen when absolutely necessary.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Cekimon - No flames from me either. I promise. There's never anything wrong with asking questions.

There are a few reasons that harnessing is so much safer than a booster seat for a child your son's age.

Size - Even if the booster appears to fit a small child well, in a crash many small children "submarine" under the seat belt causing the lap portion of the belt to ride up onto their stomach and this can cause severe internal injuries. These injuries are commonly called "seatbelt syndrome".

Bone strength - A 5 pt harness contacts the body at the strongest points and spreads them out all over the body. A lap and shoulder belt is only a 3 point system and so the forces are more concentrated in the areas where the belt falls. A 2 year olds bones are not yet strong enough to absorb all of those forces. Additionally a 5 pt harness greatly reduces head excursion which helps protect their neck bones.

Maturity - Two, three, most four and five year olds (and some older) simply do not have the self control to sit properly in a booster sea. They squirm, lean, reach, etc. and that causes the belt to not fit properly. Again, in a crash an improperly fitting seatbelt can cause very severe injuries.

You asked why companies make booster seats for preschoolers when it's obviously not safe. Unfortunately the answer is, because people buy them.

For your son I would look into the Graco Nautilus, the Britax Frontier, and the Britax Regent. For a 40 lb 2 year old I would really consider the Regent if it will fit in your budget and your car.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

It also looks like the Marathon can go up to 65 pounds ff, if you would rather move him back to that and get a new seat for your DD. I have a giant toddler too, it is back-breaking! I can't imagine having another (I mean, in terms of being able to walk after picking both up) so I'm very impressed that you manage it.


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

First:
Your DS is too heavy to rear-face anyway, but the scrunched-up-knees are not a concern unless the weight restrictions are being breached. My daughter is 19 months old, much smaller and lighter than your DS, and her legs are still frogged rear-facing, but she is able to remain that way because she is under the height and weight limits.

Second:
You are blessed to live in a country with higher-harnessing seats. None here go above 40 lbs. If I hadn't found one tested to 55 lbs she would have to sit on a booster cushion. The reason that people recommend a minimum of 4 years is for two reasons. The first is legality. It's not legal in many places to have a child under 4 in a booster chair. The second is bone structure. A child's bones are not strong enough, many studies say, until six to absorb crash force on impact. There's an interesting but graphic and sad YouTube video on the subject here. I hope you do consider re-harnessing your son, to keep him (and mama!) safe and happy.


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

I have DS in this carseat http://www.gracobaby.com/catalog/pro...Number=8J00BRV. When you're done with the harness (up to 65 lbs) it converts into a high back booster and eventually into just a booster seat and is for kids up to 100 lbs.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

I would also beg you to look at a harnessed seat (and I know nobody ever tells parents these things.... )

Anyway, my niece, also huge, was moved to a booster at two years old. She frequently escaped from the seatbelt, and while I was driving, I turned to tell her to sit back down, and hit the car in front of me. VERY luckily we were all fine, but it totaled the minivan containing me, her 6 year old sister, my sister and my best friend. This would not have happened if she had been in a 5 point harness.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Car seat companies are only required to put the bare minimum standards on their seats. Parents often dont realize that these are, in fact, bare minimums, and many of us would rather our child have more than the bare minimum protection. That is why we look to the folks at Safe Kids Coalition who study car seats and the physics behind crash tests.

State laws are also bare minimums. What you want to look into is Best Practice standards.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

to all...

thank you mamas for all the info!!! (and for giving it to me gently!)

I'm going to be getting a new seat _today_.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
I have DS in this carseat http://www.gracobaby.com/catalog/pro...Number=8J00BRV. When you're done with the harness (up to 65 lbs) it converts into a high back booster and eventually into just a booster seat and is for kids up to 100 lbs.

probably this one.... more in my budget.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 














to all...

thank you mamas for all the info!!! (and for giving it to me gently!)

I'm going to be getting a new seat _today_.









: That's great mama!

The Nautilus is a great seat.







I would recommend that you have your lo sit in it first at the store to make sure everything is good with it.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Oh good, the Nautilus is awesome. If you can, try before you buy, since it can be a little narrow for wider kids.

I know you have already gotten a bazillion replies, but let me throw my answer out there too. Like others said, manufacturers only put the bare minimums on their seats. A two year old is not mature enough to sit properly, and their bodies are just not made for an adult seatbelt. While a four year old the same height and weight as your son is appropriate in a booster, a two year old's bones are much less developed and are just not able to withstand the forces of a crash in a seatbelt. There is something called 'seatbelt syndrome' and 'submarining' which can and does happen when younger kids are in seatbelts.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Now what??

I got the nautilus and he can unbuckle the top part. i only got a few blocks away. do they make a device to cover this part?

I'm not always going to be able to pull over and insist that he stays buckled and not drive until he cooperates. Mainly this is an issue is DD is crying, fussy, hungry and we need to get home w/o making multiple stops. Even if I did pull over and wait... he's a stubborn little booger and we could be there for hours. There is no reasoning with him right now. We're going through some real testing behavior right now and he's becoming more and more defiant each day.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 
probably this one.... more in my budget.

I also have the nautilus for both my girls no complaints at all.

ETA: Can you try covering the clip so it's "out of sight out of mind"? My 5 year old has trouble unbuckling hers so no real advice, sorry.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

As long as the straps are nice and tight, there is no real danger with him unbuckling the chest clip. It's only purpose is to act as a pre-crash positioner to keep the straps over the shoulder.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
As long as the straps are nice and tight, there is no real danger with him unbuckling the chest clip. It's only purpose is to act as a pre-crash positioner to keep the straps over the shoulder.

I'll have to see then if he's able to get his arms out of the straps when it's unbuckled. i got it, brought it home, had DH install it... and we got a block away and he was hysterical because daddy wasn't coming with us. He cooperated just fine getting into the seat because he thought daddy was coming.

I'd rather the chest clip just stay clipped... i've been googling all sorts of keywords for this and can't find any product. I did find something on mypreciouschild. com that clips the straps together, I guess for added protection? But it doesn't cover the actual clip itself.

Do you think I might find something in the Child Safety section at home depot or somewhere like that?


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

You could try flipping the clip backwards. I've heard of lots of moms doing that when kids learn how to undo buckles and won't leave them done.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

No, you can't use any products like that. Obviously it would be ideal for the clip to stay clipped, but if the straps are tight enough he shouldn't be able to get his arms out.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

If you are in a cooler climate, you could take his coat off and put it on backwards once getting him strapped in - this would block the chest clip from his reach. If he is wearing a winter coat, this is recommended anyway, since bulky coats prevent the carseat straps from being tight enough.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flower of Bliss* 
You could try flipping the clip backwards. I've heard of lots of moms doing that when kids learn how to undo buckles and won't leave them done.

i'll have to try that.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flower of Bliss* 
You could try flipping the clip backwards. I've heard of lots of moms doing that when kids learn how to undo buckles and won't leave them done.

I asked a local tech about this just yesterday (out of curiosity) and she wouldn't recommend it. She said it could cause it to operate incorrectly in a crash, and/or possible bruise the child, which makes total sense.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
I asked a local tech about this just yesterday (out of curiosity) and she wouldn't recommend it. She said it could cause it to operate incorrectly in a crash, and/or possible bruise the child, which makes total sense.

Yep, the Graco clip is rounded on the outside. That could really damage some ribs.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
I asked a local tech about this just yesterday (out of curiosity) and she wouldn't recommend it. She said it could cause it to operate incorrectly in a crash, and/or possible bruise the child, which makes total sense.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the Nautilus, but on our seat, its flat on the back and raised on the front... Looks like it could definitely bruise to me.

Luckily DS has no interest in unbuckling himself though, so I haven't BTDT yet.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I agree - I would NOT flip the clip backwards. Chest clips are designed to break in an accident, and flipping it over might cause some pretty bad breastbone damage or something if it isn't allowed to break in the way it's designed to.

Like another PP said, chest clips are just pre-crash harness positioners. Some other countries don't even have them (harnesses only). If the straps are tight enough, like they should be, then he shouldn't be able to get out anyway.

ETA: And GOOD for you Momma for keeping him harnessed!!!


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

I wouldn't recommend flipping the clip backwards either. And I wouldn't add anything onto the seat to keep the straps together. The chest clip is designed to be able to break apart in a crash.

If the straps are tight enough he *shouldn't* be able to get his arms out of the straps, but I've seen some serious houdinis.

Hmmm, let me see if I can think of something (besides the coat trick which is a good idea if you live in a cooler climate)


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
If you are in a cooler climate, you could take his coat off and put it on backwards once getting him strapped in - this would block the chest clip from his reach. If he is wearing a winter coat, this is recommended anyway, since bulky coats prevent the carseat straps from being tight enough.

Okay...thankfully I didn't go turn the clip around yet. I'll pass on that because it's not flat and I see where that's going...

So about the backwards coat thing... It's mostly moderate climate here all year and right now even cooler... but I'm not sure I understand.

Strap him in the seat first without his coat on.... then put the coat on him backwards? Does this make it hard for him to reach his arms to the clip? Am I supposed to be able to zip the jacket up on his back?

My fun day continues, on a side note... DS got a bloody nose when he was playing outside with a wagon. I'm just having all kinds of mommy fun today.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)




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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 
Strap him in the seat first without his coat on.... then put the coat on him backwards? Does this make it hard for him to reach his arms to the clip? Am I supposed to be able to zip the jacket up on his back?

Whoops







I'm sorry. I wasn't visualizing the clip well. I haven't done that myself, just heard the recommendation.

As far as the jacket, buckle him in all the way without the jacket on. Then, put his arms through the sleeves so the back of the jacket covers his chest (and as a result the chest clip). You won't be zipping the jacket at all or trying to cover his back with it. His back should be snug against the seat with the straps snug against his front and then the jacket over that. This is safer anyway. Hopefully by the time it warms up he'll have lost interest in the clip.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flower of Bliss* 
Whoops







I'm sorry. I wasn't visualizing the clip well. I haven't done that myself, just heard the recommendation.

As far as the jacket, buckle him in all the way without the jacket on. Then, put his arms through the sleeves so the back of the jacket covers his chest (and as a result the chest clip). You won't be zipping the jacket at all or trying to cover his back with it. His back should be snug against the seat with the straps snug against his front and then the jacket over that. This is safer anyway. Hopefully by the time it warms up he'll have lost interest in the clip.

i'll try it but i think he'll be able to take the jacket off.... i hope i'm wrong though. we'll try this next time.


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

FWIW:
Chest clips are a North American phenomenon. No European seats have them. They are designed to break apart in the event of a crash, and I think their main purpose is to hold the straps in place?? Anyway, if he messes with it, I would take it off entirely and tighten the straps as much as you can. As long as you can trust him not to play with the straps, he should be fine without a chest clip AFAIK--but US seats MIGHT be designed differently that UK seats and the chest clip might be necessary.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

:


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

You could take the clip off another seat and use in on this seat. They're all made to break away in the event of a crash, and if the straps fit, it shouldn't be an issue.


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 







:

The point of this post is...?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

If he is unbuckling the chest clip, I would work with rewards and consequences. I would not remove it, or flip it. American seats are crash tested with them and it is my understanding that in some cases the shoulder straps are further apart because of them. I'm not a big one on rewards- we didn't use them for potty learning, or really for much at all, but there are a handful of situations where I will reward and safety in the car is one! Maybe there is a special treat for not undoing the clip through out the ride? Starting with short trips and lots of reminders? Adjusting back to a harness might take a while, but hang in there! Don't let him convince you it's too tight either, that's another common complaint of re-harnessed kids! Great job on re-harnessing him mama!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annalisa84* 
The point of this post is...?

That usually means someone is subscribing to the thread to lurk and read and gather info









-Angela


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## Annalisa84 (Nov 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
That usually means someone is subscribing to the thread to lurk and read and gather info









-Angela

Ooh, neat! I was like "POPCORN? WHAT DOES POPCORN HAVE TO DO WITH CAR SEATS?!" I love all the smilies on MDC!


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

To keep him from unbuckling I have heard of people putting the velcro tape on the clip where you press to open, the harder side of the tape, not the softer side. It hurts their little fingers to try and open it then. Also, if you are crafty, you could maybe sew a little fabric cover for the clip the either snaps or buttons, something he can't yet undo. I am so very happy to hear you got your son a new seat, I have been thinking about your other post all day.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
If he is unbuckling the chest clip, I would work with rewards and consequences. I would not remove it, or flip it. American seats are crash tested with them and it is my understanding that in some cases the shoulder straps are further apart because of them. I'm not a big one on rewards- we didn't use them for potty learning, or really for much at all, but there are a handful of situations where I will reward and safety in the car is one! Maybe there is a special treat for not undoing the clip through out the ride? Starting with short trips and lots of reminders? Adjusting back to a harness might take a while, but hang in there! Don't let him convince you it's too tight either, that's another common complaint of re-harnessed kids! Great job on re-harnessing him mama!

I'm not a fan of rewards/bribing either but today we even tried it. The "bad" behavior is when he's throwing a fit over something he doesn't want to do... like go with mommy while daddy stays home... or after we had dropped his cousin off at pre-school and he wanted to keep playing with cousin. So it's not every time we're in the car and the unclipping/unbuckling is associated with some type of tantrum.

But today when we turned around and came home... I even tried bribing him. I told him we were going to buy xmas presents for daddy and that we'd buy him a new car... Ramone from the movie Cars... (favorite car right now) and he had zero interest in leaving with me.

Tomorrow is a new day... Daddy will be at work and we're going to the park at 11am for a play/mom date so we'll see how it all goes. I am hopeful because he likes visiting the park and I think the daddy love with be on the back burner since he should know daddy is working.

I'll keep you posted.

BTW, I finally watched one of the you tube videos about the car seat/booster thing. So so sad. I'm really glad I found all this out though.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snoopy5386* 
To keep him from unbuckling I have heard of people putting the velcro tape on the clip where you press to open, the harder side of the tape, not the softer side. It hurts their little fingers to try and open it then. Also, if you are crafty, you could maybe sew a little fabric cover for the clip the either snaps or buttons, something he can't yet undo. I am so very happy to hear you got your son a new seat, I have been thinking about your other post all day.

what a great idea!!!! Anyone have objections to this?!?


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## gini1313 (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
For your son I would look into the Graco Nautilus, the Britax Frontier, and the Britax Regent. For a 40 lb 2 year old I would really consider the Regent if it will fit in your budget and your car.

Why the regent over the frontier?


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

The Regent has the highest straps on the market in the US.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Good info. http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...oolpreteen.htm


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gini1313* 
Why the regent over the frontier?

In the case of a 40lb 2yo you're going to want as high of a weight limit as possible if the child doesn't slow down. True that the Frontier also has hw limit, but the Regent does harness a lot longer because of the height of the slots.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 
what a great idea!!!! Anyone have objections to this?!?
















Nope, go ahead and try it!


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Turning your child forward in a harness is the safest thing to do in your case. Only other option I can think of is a Swedish rear facing seats which will hold you son rear facing until 55 lbs. These seats keep kids rear facing to anything between 4 and 6 years of age.


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## Cekimon (Feb 3, 2008)

well i haven't had to try the velcro tape on him thankfully. Things have been going much smoother, thankfully. DH and I had a big parenting pow-wow about DS needing more quality dad time to make my day easier and yesterday DH spent the whole evening with DS just playing and hanging out. No pressure or activity... (like tonight we go to music class and dinner and grandma's but that's not really one-on-one time)

so my car rides have been easier. I'm surprised he didn't put a major fight over being re-harnessed but really glad. DH told him it's like a race car seat because race car drivers have this kind of buckle. He still unbuckles the chest clip when we get to where we are going and i remind him that only mommy should unbuckle him but at least he's stopped while the car is moving. i'm sure he'll give me problems again when another tantrum/issue arises but hopefully if we can go long enough without it, he'll forget this as being a way to be defiant and do something else.

But another reason why i posted is that I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU







to all of you moms for helping me get back on track with my car seat safety. i still can't believe i trusted the darn people at BRU. It's totally not like me to make decisions with such little thought and research but i've been a little crazier the last several months and i'm so glad I had you wonderful mamas helping me with all this great info!!!

Now I really feel way more confident in my son's safety in the car. I will certainly pass along this info in my mommy groups especially if I ever notice someone making the same mistake I was making!!


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## SoCaliMommy (Jun 11, 2004)

I'd suggest a Britax Frontier. you can harness til 80lbs and then you can use it with a seatbelt after that. Well worth the $$$.


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:

i still can't believe i trusted the darn people at BRU.
The thing to keep in mind...for the most part the salespeople & clerks at BRU are there for a paycheck, it's a temporary job, not a career choice....if you have a passion for carseats & carseat safety you're probably gonna go through the training to be a CPST (is that the right initials?) or car seat tech, you're not gonna go work for BRU....


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## black balloon (Dec 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
*I'm normally not a fan of harnessing kids forward facing* but in your case it's the only way.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, and pardon me if I am, but what? I've done extensive research on this subject and this statement baffles my mind. I know that as with everything, car safety is ultimately the parent's decision, but this statement is ridiculous. For one thing, it's illegal to use a seat from a country other than the one you live in. For another thing, therefore, car seats in the United States (where the poster is from) only rear face, right now, to 35 pounds max. Even if you keep your child in the rear-facing position for as long as you can, for most kids it's only 3 years or so. (My 3 year 7 month old is small enough to rear face but she hasn't rear faced since the 30-lb limit of her seat was reached in August) Everything I've read suggests that a 3-year-old's skeleton is not strong enough to absorb crash impact when protected only by a seatbelt. In fact, there's conclusive research that the skeleton is not mature enough to be supported by only a booster seat until at least six years old. A child that is too small and immature to sit in a booster seat (like a two year old) is more likely to be ejected from the seat and die in a crash than a child harnessed in a car seat. So why, exactly, aren't you a "big fan of forward-facing harnessing" when it's clearly the safest thing for a child?


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

.....some studies suggest that harnessing ff puts strong loads on a young childs next, precisely because the harness holds them in place in the seat so well; their head is unrestrained and still flies forward w/ full force, so the neck is left to bear the full load instead of it being more spread though the body.
OTOH, because a booster /seat belt combo lets a kid move more, they are more likely to impact something else in the vehicle (seat in front of them for example).

A big difference too is between the two countries, when you can rf til 4,5,6 yrs old then the kid can understand better about sitting properly, keeping the belt in place, etc.
Also if you look up the Brio Zento, for example, which rf to 55 lbs and then becomes a ff booster seat....(others similiar, that's the only name I know though)...you can see that their boosters offer a much higher level of protection then our typical boosters.

For a 2yr old that must FF a harness is necesary largely because a 2 year old won't use a booster properly..... and proper use (along with proper fit) is a much bigger factor in safety than the type of seat used.

That's my understanding of it anyway.


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## black balloon (Dec 10, 2008)

I've seen those studies, too, but *in a country where seats that can have a six-year-old rear facing are unavailable (and illegal!)*, it is irresponsible and unsafe to go straight from rear-facing to a booster seat. If we could, we would, but we cannot, and it's simply not safe.


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm guessing he just means that he wishes we had higher weight limits for rearfacing, like they have in Europe, and that when the rfing limit has been reached, ffing in a 5pt harness in next.

Anyway, just another idea about the harness clip. I found that when I let dd help, she is much more agreeable. For example, I _try_ to leave in lots of time so that she can climb into th car, sit herself in the seat and "help" with the buckles. This really helped when she was getting cranky about the car-rides and carseat - now she often lets me do it all without throwing a fit.

I too was shocked to discover the mis-information at BRU and even our health unit (who suggested I turn my 18mos old ffing - right after we discussed her weight of 18lbs (in Canada babes MUST be a minimum of 1 yo AND 20lbs to forward face). DD is 2 today and somewhere b/w 20-25lbs and still happily rfing!


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *black balloon* 
I've seen those studies, too, but *in a country where seats that can have a six-year-old rear facing are unavailable (and illegal!)*, it is irresponsible and unsafe to go straight from rear-facing to a booster seat. If we could, we would, but we cannot, and it's simply not safe.

Absolutely. I'm with you there. I would NOT put a 2 or 3 yr old in a booster at all, especially not our boosters. Just guessing that's the reason for the original statement.







...


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

The poster "AdventureDad" is in Sweden, so his children are able to rf to 55lbs. Hence his opinion.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:

Everything I've read suggests that a 3-year-old's skeleton is not strong enough to absorb crash impact when protected only by a seatbelt. In fact, there's conclusive research that the skeleton is not mature enough to be supported by only a booster seat until at least six years old. A child that is too small and immature to sit in a booster seat (like a two year old) is more likely to be ejected from the seat and die in a crash than a child harnessed in a car seat. So why, exactly, aren't you a "big fan of forward-facing harnessing" when it's clearly the safest thing for a child?
Right and wrong. First, I apologize for not being clear enough in my last post. I said I wasn't a fan of harnessing kids forward facing. It should have read "harnessing older kids forward facing". Sorry about being unclear and thanks for pointing that out.









So let me make it clear, it's absolutely inappropriate to put a 2 or 3 year old in a booster. That's too young and it's unsafe.

You're totally right about not keeping a small child in a booser. But keeping a normal 4-5 year old in a good belt positioning booster is a safe as a harnessed seat taking all factors into consideration. The recommendation in Sweden is to NOT use any harnessed seats for older kids. Leading experts in the field who have been doing this for way longer than anyone else recommend booster ahead of harnessing for kids 4+. I know this goes against US recommendations but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

Anyway, the comparison of harnessing v. booster is irrelevant since any safety difference is small whatever you choose to believe. We shuld focus on rear facing isntead which is where the difference in safety is HUGE.

Using a Swedish, or should I say European seat since all are ECE R44 approved, is technically illegal. That's ironic since it's much safer. Keeping a two year old in a Britax Marathon or Swedish Britax Hi-Way is probably the same regarding safety. The advantage is the ability to rear face much longer, to 55 lbs.

Many kids outgrow seats by height first but that still means rear facing for a long time. And there are many kids who are big kids and are forced to forward face way sooner than desired.


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:

Using a Swedish, or should I say European seat since all are ECE R44 approved, is technically illegal. That's ironic since it's much safer. Keeping a two year old in a Britax Marathon or Swedish Britax Hi-Way is probably the same regarding safety. The advantage is the ability to rear face much longer, to 55 lbs.
Yeah, that's the most frustrating part, that these seats exist and are in use, with apparently great results elsewhere, yet for whatever reason, one gov't doesn't want to trust another's test results....


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)




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## beebalmmama (Jul 21, 2005)

Does he try to pull out of the straps or just unbuckle? Like pp said I would see if you could cover it up with something. We have the Nautilus too and it's been great, ds hasn't figured out the buckle yet. I actually have a harder time unbuckling it more than I do our Marathon, go figure....


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

My oldest nephew is a lot like the OP's son, and was in a booster at 2 1/2 because he was just so big, and my sister couldn't afford a Britax seat.

What is someone supposed to do when they have a very big toddler and a limited income? Sell a kidney for a Britax?

While it's fairly easy to find a low cost/free infant or convertible seat, it's harder to find a low cost/free seat that will keep a heavier/taller than normal toddler in a harnessed seat.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

There's no need to sell any body parts to buy carseats.

There are appropriate seats in almost every budget (unless your budget is $25, in which case, you'd have to check into programs that hand out seats). The Apex 65 is a combination seat that will harness to 65 lbs. It's top slots aren't as high as the Nautilus/Frontier or Regent, but they're still pretty tall. It's on sale right now at Albeebaby for $90. It requires a headrest behind it. If that's not available the Nautilus is $150 and can often be found on sale for around $120.

If a person wants to, they can keep their child safe in an appropriate seat until they're ready to sit in a seatbelt for $160 - $200 (Scenera and then Nautilus or Apex and cheap backless if needed)


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
(..)
Like another PP said, chest clips are just pre-crash harness positioners. Some other countries don't even have them (harnesses only). If the straps are tight enough, like they should be, then he shouldn't be able to get out anyway.

We don't have chest clips on our seats here. And we've never had any problems, we just make the straps real tight (like they should be anyway), and the kids can't get loose.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Right and wrong. First, I apologize for not being clear enough in my last post. I said I wasn't a fan of harnessing kids forward facing. It should have read "harnessing older kids forward facing". Sorry about being unclear and thanks for pointing that out.









So let me make it clear, it's absolutely inappropriate to put a 2 or 3 year old in a booster. That's too young and it's unsafe.

You're totally right about not keeping a small child in a booser. But keeping a normal 4-5 year old in a good belt positioning booster is a safe as a harnessed seat taking all factors into consideration. The recommendation in Sweden is to NOT use any harnessed seats for older kids. Leading experts in the field who have been doing this for way longer than anyone else recommend booster ahead of harnessing for kids 4+. I know this goes against US recommendations but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

Anyway, the comparison of harnessing v. booster is irrelevant since any safety difference is small whatever you choose to believe. We shuld focus on rear facing isntead which is where the difference in safety is HUGE.

Using a Swedish, or should I say European seat since all are ECE R44 approved, is technically illegal. That's ironic since it's much safer. Keeping a two year old in a Britax Marathon or Swedish Britax Hi-Way is probably the same regarding safety. The advantage is the ability to rear face much longer, to 55 lbs.

Many kids outgrow seats by height first but that still means rear facing for a long time. And there are many kids who are big kids and are forced to forward face way sooner than desired.

Here, where we live (we are "neighbours"), you would put a kid that has outgrown a rearfacing seat in a booster. The recomendation is clear on not having big kids (3 year olds aswell) in a harness forwardfacing, at all.
The strain on the neck in a carcrash would be to big, the neck would simply snap. (Or get so damanged that the child would die from it later, and I know of so many cases where that happend.) Because the body is totally strapped, and wont move an inch, so the complete force would be on the neck. And the neck of a small kid can't handle it.
So here it is infant rearfacing seat, rearfacing seat, and then booster with the cars 3-point seatbelt.
But like you, we have seats that go up to 55.11/12 lbs (25 kg.) rearfacing, and the kids are usually 4-5-6 years old before they get put in a booster.
We have two 5 year olds rearfacing in Britax Secura seats. (The tallest is 43.3 inches/110 cm. and 28.6 lbs/13 kg.)
And a 3 year old rearfacing (of course) in a Britax Secura, and also a 10 year old in a Britax Kidfix booster.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Great stuff Pixiekisses. The approach to car seat safety is the same here (Sweden). Rear facing until 4-5 and then a good booster seat. Fatalities and injuries are extremely low.

What you say about harnessing is true but there is lots more to it. There are factors beyond pure crash testing which improves safety for boosters. And there are also some very technical details regarding construction of the harnessed seats which puts much more strain on the whole body, not just the neck. It has to do with the "ride down time" in harnessed seats. Basically means part of the regular 60 ms. ride down time is "wasted" and a child's body needs to absorb the full impact forces in half the time making already high forces double. Boring enough discussion to put anyone to sleep


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Great stuff Pixiekisses. The approach to car seat safety is the same here (Sweden). Rear facing until 4-5 and then a good booster seat. Fatalities and injuries are extremely low.

What you say about harnessing is true but there is lots more to it. There are factors beyond pure crash testing which improves safety for boosters. And there are also some very technical details regarding construction of the harnessed seats which puts much more strain on the whole body, not just the neck. It has to do with the "ride down time" in harnessed seats. Basically means part of the regular 60 ms. ride down time is "wasted" and a child's body needs to absorb the full impact forces in half the time making already high forces double. Boring enough discussion to put anyone to sleep









Heh, been there, done that.
It's a issue here you know, so online forums with parents tend to have those discussions.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh yeah, we have heated discussion on car-seat.org about this all the time. In reality, both harnessing and boosters for older kids are safe. On might be a little safer but it's far wiser to focus on rear facing vs. forward facing of small kids. That's where the safety difference is huge.

Nice weekend


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I understand the idea of the heavy head and harnessing not being ideal... but I don't think it really holds true.

What does that research say about the fact that racecar drivers use 5pt harnesses? And that car manufacturers know that 5pt harnesses are safer, but say that people wouldn't use them?

-Angela


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Race car drivers wear 5 point harnesses forward facing. Why? Because it's safer than a belt.

Keeping kids harnessed forward facing to higher weights gives you an extra measure of protection. Every time you move up a level in terms of car seats, you lose a level of safety. All things considered.

Yes, there are many factors involved, but the reality of the matter is that seat belts and LATCH systems fail far more often than tethers and 5 point harnesses.

Research supports this.

If you have watched crash test footage, you'll realize that harnessed bodies in crashes indeed move. Much more than an inch. The chest clip is designed to break away and the harness webbing is designed to "give" to a degree. Car seat harnesses aren't meant to be that tight. Snug, yes, but not so tight that it is uncomfortable.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Comparing race car drivers and toddlers is not applicable. A race car driver is an adult, most often has fully developed muscles and bones, and also often use extra protection for their necks. A toddler has soft bone and not fully developed muscles as you know.

If we get a little more technical, race car driver seats are also fastened into the body of vehicle in a completely different way getting rid of one problem with harnessed seats regarding ride down time.

Harnessed seats for adults is safer as I understand but comparing toddler or babies to that is not a good idea.

It's a subjective discussion, some say it's safer and some say it isn't. There are no head to head tests and won't be any either.

I can only offer you this: The researchers/people who have been doing car seat safety research longer than anyone, have more experience than anyone else, and have the best track record in the world regarding safety during the past 30 years recommend booster ahead of harnessing (for kids 4+) Kids in Sweden don't use harnessed seats at all and despite using this "dangerous" seats accident statistics toy with any other country.

Whatever one choose to believe, the difference is probably not large and it's far better to focus on making more your toddler stay rear facing for a longer time.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Comparing race car drivers and toddlers is not applicable. A race car driver is an adult, most often has fully developed muscles and bones, and also often use extra protection for their necks. A toddler has soft bone and not fully developed muscles as you know.

If we get a little more technical, race car driver seats are also fastened into the body of vehicle in a completely different way getting rid of one problem with harnessed seats regarding ride down time.

Harnessed seats for adults is safer as I understand but comparing toddler or babies to that is not a good idea.

It's a subjective discussion, some say it's safer and some say it isn't. There are no head to head tests and won't be any either.

I can only offer you this. The researchers/people who have been doing car seat safety research longer than anyone, have more experience than anyone else, and have the best track record in the world regarding safety during the past 30 years recommend booster ahead of harnessing (for kids 4+) Kids in Sweden don't use harnessed seats at all and despite using this "dangerous" seats.

Whatever one choose to believe, the difference is probably not large and it's far better to focus on making more your toddler stay rear facing for a longer time.

Is the comparison based on a 3pt belt that is NOT locked? b/c I read that many parents lock the belt when putting young kids in boosters (pull it out all the way... feed back in so that it doesn't let out at all.)

Also, what about submarine-ing?

I've watched the videos and I can see the additional stress on the body in a 3pt harness instead of 5. I understand the forces on the neck could be increased though. Anyone have any links to research showing some kind of numbers we can compare?

-Angela


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Race car drivers wear 5 point harnesses forward facing. Why? Because it's safer than a belt.

Keeping kids harnessed forward facing to higher weights gives you an extra measure of protection. Every time you move up a level in terms of car seats, you lose a level of safety. All things considered.

Yes, there are many factors involved, but the reality of the matter is that seat belts and LATCH systems fail far more often than tethers and 5 point harnesses.

Research supports this.

If you have watched crash test footage, you'll realize that harnessed bodies in crashes indeed move. Much more than an inch. The chest clip is designed to break away and the harness webbing is designed to "give" to a degree. Car seat harnesses aren't meant to be that tight. Snug, yes, but not so tight that it is uncomfortable.

It's way more complicated than this and there are almost unlimited factors involved which is why no one can say with certainly that boosters or harnessing is safer for a toddler. There is no testing of harnessing vs. booster because it's too subjective, too expensive, and also meaningless. Both are approved and safe. One might be a little better, it's up to you what you want to believe.

I have watched lots of crash footage and regularly speak to people at a crash test facility and other people who have been doing car seat research for 30+ years.

If your seatbelt fails, which is unusual but does happen, there will be a disaster regardless of seat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
If your seatbelt fails, which is unusual but does happen, there will be a disaster regardless of seat.

Unless they're in a seat installed with LATCH







Also possible to fail, I'm sure....

-Angela


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

LATCH can fail as well I guess but we're talking too small chance to worry about IMHO. LATCH has a fairly low weight limit so it's not possible to use it all the time. But I hear change is on the way regarding this......

By the way, 39000 posts. Wow


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Unless they're in a seat installed with LATCH







Also possible to fail, I'm sure....

-Angela

But you wouldn't really ever have a seat w/ latch and a seatbelt, except kids under 40/48 lbs in a booster, in which case a seatbelt failure would still be a disaster. If one or the other were used to hold the seat in, only whichever one in use is subject to failure and would be a huge problem if it did. I don't see how one or the other is more or less likely to fail; they're tested w/ the assumption that they will work properly but nothing's perfect.
In the case of the KDM story, the seatbelt failed, if LATCH had been used it 'probably' wouldn't have (what are the chances of both pieces being faulty in the same car in the same spot). However, in another car, maybe the latch would fail but the seatbelt is fine.

I still don't get why carseats expire but not seatbelts ...and the buckle of the seatbelt is a lot of plastic too.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Good points. In the KDM case, my understanding was that the seatbelt failed or at least wasn't fastened. Maybe I got it all wrong but perhaps it was undone by accident before crash took place? Does anyone know this for sure?

Having a seatbelt fail is extremely unusual, same with LATCH. Both of them? Can't worry about this kind of stuff , it's too rare IMHO.

Car seats don't expire everywhere. It's recommended to not use car seats longer than 10 years here in Sweden but there are no official expiry date. I know almost everyone on this board is not from there and it doesn't apply to them but it was just a thought.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Comparing race car drivers and toddlers is not applicable. A race car driver is an adult, most often has fully developed muscles and bones, and also often use extra protection for their necks. A toddler has soft bone and not fully developed muscles as you know.

If we get a little more technical, race car driver seats are also fastened into the body of vehicle in a completely different way getting rid of one problem with harnessed seats regarding ride down time.

Harnessed seats for adults is safer as I understand but comparing toddler or babies to that is not a good idea.

It's a subjective discussion, some say it's safer and some say it isn't. There are no head to head tests and won't be any either.

I can only offer you this: The researchers/people who have been doing car seat safety research longer than anyone, have more experience than anyone else, and have the best track record in the world regarding safety during the past 30 years recommend booster ahead of harnessing (for kids 4+) Kids in Sweden don't use harnessed seats at all and despite using this "dangerous" seats accident statistics toy with any other country.

Whatever one choose to believe, the difference is probably not large and it's far better to focus on making more your toddler stay rear facing for a longer time.

Yeah, that!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
LATCH can fail as well I guess but we're talking too small chance to worry about IMHO. LATCH has a fairly low weight limit so it's not possible to use it all the time. But I hear change is on the way regarding this......

I have to ask, LATCH, is that the same as isofix up here?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
(..)
Car seats don't expire everywhere. It's recommended to not use car seats longer than 10 years here in Sweden but there are no official expiry date. I know almost everyone on this board is not from there and it doesn't apply to them but it was just a thought.

Here it's also a recommandation to not use a seat for more than 10 years, and I've seen the car crash tests with old seats, it's not good. We only have new seats, but if I was getting a seat from someone I know and trust completely (that's the only person I'd get a used seat from, not strangers) I wouldn't let it be older than a year or two years for infant and rearfacing seats, and a booster would have to be brand new.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
LATCH can fail as well I guess but we're talking too small chance to worry about IMHO. LATCH has a fairly low weight limit so it's not possible to use it all the time. But I hear change is on the way regarding this......

By the way, 39000 posts. Wow


40 or 48lbs isn't that low for my kids







Dd is nearly 4.5 and 35lbs and in a harnessed seat installed with LATCH I expect her to be at LEAST 7 before hitting the 48lb latch limit for her seat and my car.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azmomtoone* 
But you wouldn't really ever have a seat w/ latch and a seatbelt, except kids under 40/48 lbs in a booster, in which case a seatbelt failure would still be a disaster. If one or the other were used to hold the seat in, only whichever one in use is subject to failure and would be a huge problem if it did. I don't see how one or the other is more or less likely to fail; they're tested w/ the assumption that they will work properly but nothing's perfect.
In the case of the KDM story, the seatbelt failed, if LATCH had been used it 'probably' wouldn't have (what are the chances of both pieces being faulty in the same car in the same spot). However, in another car, maybe the latch would fail but the seatbelt is fine.

I still don't get why carseats expire but not seatbelts ...and the buckle of the seatbelt is a lot of plastic too.

The comparison being made was booster vs. 5pt seat. A 5pt seat can be installed with LATCH as long as the child in it is under the LATCH limits for the car and seat.

-Angela


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
It's way more complicated than this and there are almost unlimited factors involved which is why no one can say with certainly that boosters or harnessing is safer for a toddler. There is no testing of harnessing vs. booster because it's too subjective, too expensive, and also meaningless. Both are approved and safe. One might be a little better, it's up to you what you want to believe.

I have watched lots of crash footage and regularly speak to people at a crash test facility and other people who have been doing car seat research for 30+ years.

If your seatbelt fails, which is unusual but does happen, there will be a disaster regardless of seat.


If you are in a belt positioning booster and your seatbelt fails, there's nothing left to hold you in and you become a projectile. If you are in a harnessed seat that is belted and tethered, unless the tether, belt and harness all fail, you will at least remain in the seat. A tether is not meant to restrain a seat, but it can prevent it from becoming a projectile. THe odds are in your favour that you will at least not be ejected as easily in a harnessed seat even if the belt fails.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Agreed. But we're now talking about statistical risks which are pretty much insignificant IMHO. Yes, seatbelt can fail when you have a crash. Worrying about such low probability event is not logical and good risk/reward thinking IMHO.

Have a nice weekend


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Worrying about such low probability event is not logical and good risk/reward thinking IMHO.

Indeed.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

This risk of being in a serious accident is also quite low, but yet we take extreme measures to protect ourselves and our children from potential injury resulting from such an event. Seat belts can and do fail. Between 2000 and 2006 there were 180 recalls of seat belts and seat belt components. That's still rare, but it's not that rare.

You have a nice weekend too







.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
This risk of being in a serious accident is also quite low, but yet we take extreme measures to protect ourselves and our children from potential injury resulting from such an event. Seat belts can and do fail. Between 2000 and 2006 there were 180 recalls of seat belts and seat belt components. That's still rare, but it's not that rare.

There are alot more car crashes, also serious, than seat belt failures.
I think it's just silly to compare those at all.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

When we think of "seatbelt failure" what is actually happening is that the child is too young, squirmy, immature etc for the seatbelt and unbuckles it, or a sibling does so.


----------



## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
When we think of "seatbelt failure" what is actually happening is that the child is too young, squirmy, immature etc for the seatbelt and unbuckles it, or a sibling does so.

That's not what I was referring to at all. That's still a valid point, but not what I was specifically referring to







.


----------



## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
There are alot more car crashes, also serious, than seat belt failures.
I think it's just silly to compare those at all.


Okay, lets use something else as a basis for comparison.

Plane crashes happen about as often as seat belt failures. We still take precautions to avoid injury and death in the event of a crash even though survival is improbable.

I don't think that mechanical seat belt failures are so rare that we shouldn't take precautions to protect our children from the rare possibility.


----------



## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Plane crashes happen about as often as seat belt failures. We still take precautions to avoid injury and death in the event of a crash even though survival is improbable.

I would like to see some numbers that support this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
I don't think that mechanical seat belt failures are so rare that we shouldn't take precautions to protect our children from the rare possibility.

We can't.
Simple as that.
And I dunno about US, but here, they are so rare that it's silly to take it into consideration.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
That's not what I was referring to at all. That's still a valid point, but not what I was specifically referring to







.

I know







There definitely is such a thing as seatbelt failure (as evidenced by the recalls you mentioned before). I wasn't trying to argue with you


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

We don't take precautions in plane crashes, unless leaning forward and praying is a precaution







I take precautions with my kids but of a different kind. My son, almost 5, has been taught to always tell me if his belt is not fastened. It has happened that I forgot about it. I'm embarrassed and ashamed about it but I have forgotten couple of times. He also doesn't take off his seatbelt unless we're already in the garage or after asking me.

My 2-year old daughter sits rear facing in front and also tells me if her seat is not fastened. Even if I just start the car and start driving 10 feet.

I'm hoping that this will limit the chances that seatbelt is unbuckled.

We're talking plane crashes and faulty seat belts here, some of the most improbably events that can happen. I think it's good to talk about it, as all safety related stuff, but it just isn't a factor. Probabilities are simply too low and it's not worth worrying about.


----------



## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
I would like to see some numbers that support this.

We can't.
Simple as that.
And I dunno about US, but here, they are so rare that it's silly to take it into consideration.


I wouldn't know about the US. I don't live there







.


----------



## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
I would like to see some numbers that support this.

We can't.
Simple as that.
And I dunno about US, but here, they are so rare that it's silly to take it into consideration.

According to this article, plane crashes/accidents happen less frequently than the seat belt recalls I referenced in another link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/bu.../01safety.html

Children still ride in carseats (preferably) in planes. Seat belts still exist on planes despite the low rate of yearly accidents.

This boy's parents feel pretty strongly about preventing accidents related to seat belt failures. If I were in their shoes, I would too.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Another interesting article on seat belt failures.

http://www.safetyforum.com/inertial/

It states that Europe does have different seat belt latch safety standards than the US. This is pretty important information.


----------



## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
I wouldn't know about the US. I don't live there







.

Sorry, don't know where you live, my impression is that most in here are in the US, so I assumed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
According to this article, plane crashes/accidents happen less frequently than the seat belt recalls I referenced in another link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/bu.../01safety.html

We all know it's safer to fly, to can you fly to where you are going everyday?
It's still a really silly thing to compare.
(You can minimize the car driving, like we do. We hardly ever drive.)

And there is a thing called "good places to get info" vs. "not so good places to get info".
Youtube is not a good one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Children still ride in carseats (preferably) in planes. Seat belts still exist on planes despite the low rate of yearly accidents.

However, children should absolutely not be in carseats in a plane.
On the contrary.
And in most planes here, you wont be allowed. There's no way to fasten a carseat properly in the plane. And it would absolutely be on your own risk, bc the stuardess will tell you they take no responsibility if you put the kid in the carseat instead. They have too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Another interesting article on seat belt failures.

http://www.safetyforum.com/inertial/

It states that Europe does have different seat belt latch safety standards than the US. This is pretty important information.

Not very interesting, bc the victims are lying.

And yeah, numbers for US wouldn't count here.
Here, it's not likely for a seat belt to fail, I've actually never heard of it. (And that would be on the news, so if it was very common, I'd heard.)


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
However, children should absolutely not be in carseats in a plane.
On the contrary.
And in most planes here, you wont be allowed. There's no way to fasten a carseat properly in the plane. And it would absolutely be on your own risk, bc the stuardess will tell you they take no responsibility if you put the kid in the carseat instead. They have too.









Do you have a link showing this? Why wouldn't it be safe to be in a carseat on a plane? It's safer for an infant for sure.

You install the carseat with the seatbelt- same as a lap belt install in a car.

-Angela


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 







Do you have a link showing this? Why wouldn't it be safe to be in a carseat on a plane? It's safer for an infant for sure.

You install the carseat with the seatbelt- same as a lap belt install in a car.

-Angela

There's a reason it's not allowed on most flights.
At least here.
But I don't have a link, I just know ppl that work with it, stuardess, captain etc. And I've experienced it myself on several flights.
I don't recall all the reasons, there where several.
But just as an example, that I thought of now, the buckle is in the wrong place, it has to be on the seat, and not "gliding". You can't fasten most car-seats if the buckle is to long, it has to be totally on the base of the seat. It's hard to explain, but it says in the car-seat manuals.
And seatbelts in planes don't have the same mecanics as a car one, they aren't tested or made for holding carseats.
I have to ask my friend who works with this again to get the reasons from the crew/airplane company/plane makers or whoever decides theese things.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

The FAA in the US recommends carseats on planes. I don't know what studies they used though, maybe someone else does.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
There's a reason it's not allowed on most flights.
At least here.
But I don't have a link, I just know ppl that work with it, stuardess, captain etc. And I've experienced it myself on several flights.
I don't recall all the reasons, there where several.
But just as an example, that I thought of now, the buckle is in the wrong place, it has to be on the seat, and not "gliding". You can't fasten most car-seats if the buckle is to long, it has to be totally on the base of the seat. It's hard to explain, but it says in the car-seat manuals.
And seatbelts in planes don't have the same mecanics as a car one, they aren't tested or made for holding carseats.
I have to ask my friend who works with this again to get the reasons from the crew/airplane company/plane makers or whoever decides theese things.

huh. I wonder if the belts on the airplanes are different? It's easy to install US seats on US planes. Done it a number of times myself. And the carseat manuals support it.

HERE flight attendants strongly STRONGLY suggest keeping babies in carseats on airplanes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
The FAA in the US recommends carseats on planes.









:

-Angela


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
huh. I wonder if the belts on the airplanes are different? It's easy to install US seats on US planes. Done it a number of times myself. And the carseat manuals support it.

HERE flight attendants strongly STRONGLY suggest keeping babies in carseats on airplanes.


Ditto.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Ah. That explains why they said no carseats on our flight to Europe. Not that I'm a believer in carseats on planes, but I thought it was interesting.


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## xbabymamax (Jun 19, 2005)

oops.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
Sorry, don't know where you live, my impression is that most in here are in the US, so I assumed.

We all know it's safer to fly, to can you fly to where you are going everyday?
It's still a really silly thing to compare.
(You can minimize the car driving, like we do. We hardly ever drive.)

And there is a thing called "good places to get info" vs. "not so good places to get info".
Youtube is not a good one.

However, children should absolutely not be in carseats in a plane.
On the contrary.
And in most planes here, you wont be allowed. There's no way to fasten a carseat properly in the plane. And it would absolutely be on your own risk, bc the stuardess will tell you they take no responsibility if you put the kid in the carseat instead. They have too.

Not very interesting, bc the victims are lying.

And yeah, numbers for US wouldn't count here.
Here, it's not likely for a seat belt to fail, I've actually never heard of it. (And that would be on the news, so if it was very common, I'd heard.)


How can dead people lie? In all seriousness, why would you assume they were lying?

The rest is research based on crash tests. I'm doubting that the CBS reporters were lying nor the company paid to do the research and testing.

In terms of the youtube link, it's valid. The Kyle David ****** foundation in the States provides higher harness weight limit seats for children whose parents cannot afford them. If you watch the video to the end, you'll find a link to his foundation. It's legit. Here's the direct link
http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/

Every CPST I have ever met has reccomended the use of proper infant/child restraint seats for air travel. It's highly reccomended but not required by all the major airlines in Canada which is where I am. Belt positioning boosters are not reccomended as they require a lap and shoulder belt and are unsafe for use with just a lap belt.

In terms of air travel being safer, yes, that's a given, but that wasn't my point at all. I was speaking to the assertion that if a sort of accident is extremely rare, we shouldn't worry about it because it's "silly". My contention is that plane accidents are very, extremely rare, but there are still seat belts and saftey equipment onboard aircrafts.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
How can dead people lie? In all seriousness, why would you assume they were lying?

And why would you assume they're not?
It said there, no proof, and those that looked at the car/belt said they didn't think they where wearing it. So, there's no way to tell.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
In terms of the youtube link, it's valid.

I don't think you got my point.
Youtube is not a source you trust, it's not a place to find objective info.
Youtube links in a discussion is silly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
Every CPST I have ever met has reccomended the use of proper infant/child restraint seats for air travel. It's highly reccomended but not required by all the major airlines in Canada which is where I am.

I'm just going to assume that CPST is some plane personel of some kind from the context, and here, everyone is saying that you should not, and usually aren't allowed to use a carseat in planes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
My contention is that plane accidents are very, extremely rare, but there are still seat belts and saftey equipment onboard aircrafts.

Of course it is. And that's also why you use a carseat for the kids in the car, and helmet on a bike, and lifejacket in a boat, isn't it?
Still, you cannot compare seat belt failure with air plane safety. And seatbelt failure is still so extremely rare, it's silly to worry about it. You can't do anything to prevent it anyway. (Well, maybe not driving a very old car.)


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

A CPST is a Child Passenger Safety Technician. We are trained by NHTSA (National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration) to keep children safe in cars/busses/planes/etc.

And according *this* CPST based on the information I have and my training, a car seat should always be used on an airplane. The FAA approves (in fact encourages) it. The car seat manufacturers approve it, and the aircraft are manufactured to safely install car seats.

I should say that this post pertains to the United States. I am not well versed in the safety standards of other countries, but I do know what I am talking about in the US.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
And why would you assume they're not?
It said there, no proof, and those that looked at the car/belt said they didn't think they where wearing it. So, there's no way to tell.

PK, with respect, did you read the article in its entirety? It said that seat belts have failed in crash tests under very specific circumstances, the same circumstances that were described in the incidents where seat belt failure is suspected. That's pretty compelling.

Quote:

I don't think you got my point.
Youtube is not a source you trust, it's not a place to find objective info.
Youtube links in a discussion is silly.
I completely disagree. Crash test footage is very vaild to these types of discussions. Where do we find this footage much of the time? Youtube. I posted that link because it was made by the parents of Kyle David ******. Fine, I get it, you're not a youtube fan,







so I posted the actual link for the Kyle David ****** Foundation where they provide actual links to data and statistics regarding seatbelt failures.

Quote:

Still, you cannot compare seat belt failure with air plane safety. And seatbelt failure is still so extremely rare, it's silly to worry about it. You can't do anything to prevent it anyway. (Well, maybe not driving a very old car.)
Again I disagree. It's not silly to worry about the unpredictable or the unlikely when it can and does happen. Kyle David ****** died because his seat belt failed. A 3 year old boy is gone because a seat belt did not do its job. If you read the article you'll see that it is well documented that seat belts can and do fail esepcially in rollovers, multiple impact accidents and if there is too much space between the belt and the person. It's called "inertial separation"

Short excerpt from the linked article - It states that seat belts can fail if:

Quote:


*At least two inches of slack exists between the belt buckle and the occupant's body. (Five inches of slack and more is not uncommon.) ....*
*...buckles swinging from a pendulum against a human hip unlatched 40-50 times at impact speeds between 9 and 15 miles per hour. The engineers noted: "(A)ll subjects stated that the perceived impact force was very low and did not leave any bruises on the impact area."*
*Europe similarly recognizes the problem as real. Its safety standard states that a safety belt buckle "must withstand 5,000 opening and closing cycles&#8230;.*

The article also notes that the US does not employ the same standards as Europe. Link: http://www.safetyforum.com/inertial/


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
There's a reason it's not allowed on most flights.
At least here.
But I don't have a link, I just know ppl that work with it, stuardess, captain etc. And I've experienced it myself on several flights.
I don't recall all the reasons, there where several.
But just as an example, that I thought of now, the buckle is in the wrong place, it has to be on the seat, and not "gliding". You can't fasten most car-seats if the buckle is to long, it has to be totally on the base of the seat. It's hard to explain, but it says in the car-seat manuals.
And seatbelts in planes don't have the same mecanics as a car one, they aren't tested or made for holding carseats.
I have to ask my friend who works with this again to get the reasons from the crew/airplane company/plane makers or whoever decides theese things.

Perhaps you're thinking of _boosters_? I have heard boosters mostly don't work with plane seatbelts - because they are lap-only rather than lap-and-shoulder.

But I flew with my son when he was still in a true carseat, and I had no trouble using the carseat on the plane, and got big props from the flight attendants for bringing it and using it. We strapped him in on several different flights and different sizes of airplane, and never had a problem. This included an international flight.

But he was in forward-facing Fisher-Price Safe Embrace designed to be used with a lap/shoulder or lap belt. NOT a booster.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Perhaps you're thinking of _boosters_? I have heard boosters mostly don't work with plane seatbelts - because they are lap-only rather than lap-and-shoulder.

But I flew with my son when he was still in a true carseat, and I had no trouble using the carseat on the plane, and got big props from the flight attendants for bringing it and using it. We strapped him in on several different flights and different sizes of airplane, and never had a problem. This included an international flight.

But he was in forward-facing Fisher-Price Safe Embrace designed to be used with a lap/shoulder or lap belt. NOT a booster.

Of course I'm not talking about a booster, we where talking about infants. They go in rear-facing carseats.

And still, here (not America), you wont be allowed on most flights.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
PK, with respect, did you read the article in its entirety?

Yes I did.

Still we're not going anywhere, I'm not gonna agree with you. I still think it's silly to compare those things. And you can't prevent it from happening.
That's my final words to you, I'm not gonna repeat myself again, I'm done discussing this with you.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
Yes I did.

Still we're not going anywhere, I'm not gonna agree with you. I still think it's silly to compare those things. And you can't prevent it from happening.
That's my final words to you, I'm not gonna repeat myself again, I'm done discussing this with you.


I'm not trying to get you to agree with me and I think we can have this discussion without rudeness/brusqueness. What I'm trying to convey is that this is a real concern, it happens and there is data to support this. Europe is aware of this concern and is/has taken steps to correct it. This is not so in the USA and so is still a valid concern here.

I'm also trying to say that dismissing these concerns as silly is, well, dismissive. We're all just trying to protect our babies here. The point of the youtube video/link to the Kyle David ****** Foundation was to illustrate that keeping a child in a tethered 5pt harness longer provides a second line of defense against a child being ejected from a car should the belt fail. A child in a BPB has no such defense. So no, belt failures cannot be prevented, but ejection can be. These parents lost their child. I would not dismiss their concerns as silly, personally.

Regardless, it's obvious that you're not interested in persuing this discussion, so that's fine. No harm, no foul, no hard feelings







.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
The point of the youtube video/link to the Kyle David ****** Foundation was to illustrate that keeping a child in a tethered 5pt harness longer provides a second line of defense against a child being ejected from a car should the belt fail. A child in a BPB has no such defense. So no, belt failures cannot be prevented, but ejection can be. These parents lost their child. I would not dismiss their concerns as silly, personally.

I have a question regarding this....I've always wondered HOW a 5 point harness could have saved his life, if it was truly the seatbelt that failed. He was most likely beyond the LATCH weight limits, and if the belt failed, he would be strapped into his seat but still be a projectile, crashing into the car around him.

I'm not *getting* how the issue seems to be 5 points over booster in this case - the belt fails, the belt fails. Either seat would have been deadly at that point.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:

HERE flight attendants strongly STRONGLY suggest keeping babies in carseats on airplanes.
I disagree. Most staff are annoyed when they see a car set IMHO. Most plane staff I've talked to know the REAL RISKS and know it matters very little. And I'm talking about US or anywhere else. I've lived in US half my life and flown in and out about 150 times plus been down to Mexico 40 times so I'm not really a virgin traveler. I've also traveled a lot with my kids.

Staff on planes know the real risk about being injured by turbulence and it's so small you can forget about it. It really doesn't matter how you or your baby is traveling, it's still safer than sitting at the dinner table at home. The statistics most often cited is 3 deaths and a couple of hundred injured by turbulence *during a 20 year period.* And as far as I know death included no babies. Keep in mind there are 25 000+ per day just in US.

There are quite a few airlines which don't allow car sets at all. It's a question of increased boarding time, confused parents, car seats which don't install well and of course also the fact that traveling by plane is the safest thing you'll ever do with your baby even without a seat.

In Europe, kids travel with lap belts. Last thing I heard there are not hundreds of kids dying and tens of thousands being injured each year. If a lap belt was dangerous it would obviously not be allowed. I know it's not allowed in US but it's not like the US should be so proud of safety records.

I can't believe people don't talk more about *LIABILITY*. Maybe people don't have much business experience but you can just imagine what would happen in case a baby died and it could be proven that traveling without a set belt or lap belt was dangerous. The airline would be sued for so much money it would go out of business.

If it was unsafe to transport your baby without a seat belt it would not be allowed. After each accident with a baby, an airline would be sued to 5$50 billion and be finished. Last time I checked, there aren't exactly thousands of cases by angry parents who are suing the airline because theyr precious baby was injured.

If you look at this logically and with common sense, you'll realize the risk of your baby being injured on a plane is basically zero. During that same 20 year period 800 000+ died in traffic just in US. Your baby can travel with or without seat and the risk of something happening is still basically zero. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to take math classes.

But, using a seat on a plane is still safer. If there was one baby death by turbulence in 40 years, the seat would probably have saved that baby. IMHO, using a seat on the plane is safer but the difference is statistically too small and insignificant to worry about. 500 kids drown each year in US and 25 kids actually die after getting a television set on top of them.

Mounting some car sets on planes can be difficult but there are many US seats which install just fine. Many of the larger Swedish rear facing seats simply can't be installed on planes. No one is sad about that because they know flying with a baby without a sat is still safer than sitting on the couch at home.

I find the panic about using car seats on planes a little troublesome. A large percentage of kids who die in US are unrestrained. I think the number is something like 50% but please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone who really cares about kids would focus a little more attention to this fact than car seats on planes IMHO.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
There are quite a few airlines which don't allow car sets at all.

Just to clarify- FAA approved seats are allowed on ALL domestic flights in the US.

-Angela


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
I have a question regarding this....I've always wondered HOW a 5 point harness could have saved his life, if it was truly the seatbelt that failed. He was most likely beyond the LATCH weight limits, and if the belt failed, he would be strapped into his seat but still be a projectile, crashing into the car around him.

I'm not *getting* how the issue seems to be 5 points over booster in this case - the belt fails, the belt fails. Either seat would have been deadly at that point.

I don't think he was beyond the LATCH weight limits. He was only 3, but was in a BPB because he was over 40lbs. If he'd been in a 5 pt harness, the seat would have been belted (or latched) and tethered. Even if the belt had failed, the theory is that the tether would have kept the seat from becoming a projectile and possibly prevent ejection. Wow, that was a lot of P words. I realize this is not the primary purpose of the top tether.


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## GirlBoyGirlBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

Just have to ask---how is flying with a baby safer than sitting on a couch at home? I'm sitting right now and feel pretty okay.... Should I be worried?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
I don't think he was beyond the LATCH weight limits. He was only 3, but was in a BPB because he was over 40lbs. If he'd been in a 5 pt harness, the seat would have been belted (or latched) and tethered. Even if the belt had failed, the theory is that the tether would have kept the seat from becoming a projectile and possibly prevent ejection. Wow, that was a lot of P words. I realize this is not the primary purpose of the top tether.

The big issue here is that, more than likely, he unbuckled the seatbelt (or a sibling did) rather than the seatbelt failing.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
The big issue here is that, more than likely, he unbuckled the seatbelt (or a sibling did) rather than the seatbelt failing.

You're right, anything is possible. However, the research I am able to find concerning the matter states that if there is more than 2 inches of slack between the child and the belt and if the vehicle is in a rollover, the belt can fail.

Little kids in boosters like the freedom. If the belt isn't locked, they can lean forward causing slack in the belt.

I think either situation is possible. I don't think it's more likely that the seatbelt wasn't latched.

I used to drive a vehicle whose belts started failing and I had to have it replaced. It would just randomly start coming unlatched while I was driving. It didn't take an accident for me to find this out, but it could have.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GirlBoyGirlBoy* 
Just have to ask---how is flying with a baby safer than sitting on a couch at home? I'm sitting right now and feel pretty okay.... Should I be worried?










Watching out for flying monkeys







. Also, beware marbles, falling light fixtures and militant dust.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
You're right, anything is possible. However, the research I am able to find concerning the matter states that if there is more than 2 inches of slack between the child and the belt and if the vehicle is in a rollover, the belt can fail.


But that's not the belt failing, that's the child being ejected with no fault of the belt.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
But that's not the belt failing, that's the child being ejected with no fault of the belt.


I'm confused. I'm saying that belts can fail by coming unlatched in the event of a rollover and/or if there is 2 or more inches of slack between the person and the belt. Not ejection because of the slack, the belt unlatching (failing) in these situations.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

If there is two inches of slack in the belt, especially on a small child, there is no way the child is saying contained in that belt.


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