# Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!



## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

I have a friend that I have known for almost 14 yrs. She has four children like me and they are beautiful kids! Well, I always knew we did some things different in the discipline area and way we care for our kids, but since we have other things in common (no vax, eat organic/healthy, etc) I kindof overlooked the differences. Well, I am just sick to death and heartbroken over what I saw take place last night at her house.

I go over to their house to get some herbal remedies for my baby who is sick, well why I am there she takes her 2 week old baby girl and places her on a bed in a back room and proceeds to shut the door. The baby of course did not like be left alone and started to cry. She was not crying hard at first, but soon began to get really upset. I was shocked when I watched as my friend just ignored the baby's crying and kept on talking to me like nothing was happening. She was chatting with her DH and me and playing with my 2 yr old. He also knew the baby was crying and just kept ignoring her too. After about 15 minutes of this little newborn screaming her head off, I mentioned to my friend that maybe the baby needed something and I encouraged her to go take care of the baby. Well, she told me that she was "fine" and just mad because she did not like not getting her way and being held when she wants. I was like







? I never knew that a newborn could supposidly manipulate the parents..but according to my DF they can and must be taught.. UGH! So anyways, the screaming became utter hysterics and the baby was doing that cough/gasp crying that comes from sheer terror and exhaustion. I was so upset at this and wanted to run get the baby but I had my hands full with my sick toddler who was hooked up to a heart/oxygen monitor and did not want to expose their baby to any germs I had on me. By this point the baby had been screaming hysterically for 30 minutes at least. I had reached my breaking point and told her that "your baby really needs to you hold her now!", she again said in a laughy sing song voice that "the baby loves to be held but that she has to learn paitence and that crying is good for her." I just stood there and stared at her in disbelief. I had heard her let her kids CIO before but they were a bit older and she always acted like she was rushing to get to them...I do not go to her house often so I had no idea until last night exactly how she does this nor how often. Apparantly her DH and her think this is "discipline" and something about Ezzo and To train up a child and stuff?? Anyways... she did not do anything to that baby while I was there except go look in on her once, she even said that she probably was wanting to nurse, but would have to wait for mommy to get time...and then was so proud of herself and said "God blessed her baby with sleep" when the baby finally screamed herself into pure exhausted sleep!







: I just was so sick I had to bite my tounge not to say what I was thinking! I ended up taking my son home quickly after that and just do not think I can go over there anymore and may decide to end the friendship. I am really upset over this! I do not want my children exposed to that crap at all. I have never let a baby CIO at any age and never would, I just don't know how any mother can???!! I hate this Ezzo person/train up a child person for whatever crap they are pushing into these moms heads that makes them think it is "good" to do this to a baby! UGH UGH!!!

Oh and one other thing that happened that really annoyed me was they they were making some herbal drinks to help boost my son's immune system cause he has his 7th pneumonia that stems from a weak lung from a previous removed birth defect (he only has a half lung now on his left side). Well they offered him this cup of a bitter herbal drink and he did not want it because it tasted so bad. The DH of my friend looks over at me and tells me " if that were my child I would spank them even if it took 45 times and then they would drink it!" He said this very calmly and matter of fact...I know they spank their kids.. another Ezzo or something thing they have tried to "teach" me about , but they are very quiet people so I figured they only spanked for real disobediance...not something like not wanting to eat or drink something they did not like??!! That made no sense to me and seems awful cruel!! I just looked at him and said "oh dear" and shook my head in shame...I think he got the point. I even told them that we do not hit children in our home, and I have found that even adults refuse food that taste bad.. should we hit them too?









I just kissed my sweet baby's head and told him he did not have to drink something he did not want and I would never hit him for it...

Anyways...I know this is long but I needed to vent to you mamas... I am seriously thinking of dropping this friend because I cannot be around this type of parenting. This crosses the line for me.

Gosh I feel so bad for their children, especially for the newborn...


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm so sorry. My heart is literally hurting after reading that. My chest hurts.
Those poor babies, and poor you.

How do you want to proceed? Do you want information to email them? Do you just want to cut off all ties with them?

I ache for those children and for you too!


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## FitMOmmyOf2 (Apr 3, 2005)

OMG, Kellina,

reading your 'story' made me not only sick to my stomach but literally watery eyes!.. My heart is aching! I cannot imagine how ppl can leave a baby just cry like this!!!









Poor children...

I'm sorry you have a sick child and that you're put in that serious position yesterday!.. Are you going to do anything about it?
I think I'd need to cut ties with that person..


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

What a completely horrible story. I thought your response was a good one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KingsDaughter76*
I just looked at him and said "oh dear" and shook my head in shame...I think he got the point. I even told them that we do not hit children in our home, and I have found that even adults refuse food that taste bad.. should we hit them too?









As great as it would be to convince people like this that there are better ways to treat children, it would be like talking to a brick wall. I'm pretty sure not even Ezzo advocates CIO for under 6 mos. I thought I read somewhere on the threads that his first book didn't have that age restriction and there were a lot of failure to thrive cases so the later book added the 6 mos. If that is so, you might try slipping that bit of info to the mother before ceasing contact.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

That really really sucks. I am going to be praying for that poor mistreated baby.


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## mamasarah (May 28, 2002)

oh, hugs to you. i had a similar experience with a not-so-close friend and i pretty much stopped trying to be friends after that. i am so sorry you had to be in that situation!


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

UGH...I just have a hard time reading stuff about tiny babes in this regard I cannot imagine having witnessed that...I'm afraid I would just not have restrained myself as well as you did.


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

I don't really know what to do at this point... I am still in shock over it! I have thought about emailing them, but her DH is a pastor and they are so dead set in their beliefs...I am a christian too, but they think I am nuts about my views, so I don't think they will listen to me at all. I just am not too sure what my options are at this point except to cut off the friendship or keep them at a far distance and just talk by phone or something. This is so heartbreaking for me!!

Kellina


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I would tell them my concerns and tell them your viewpoint and probably never speak to them again. Even if they don't give it a second thought (and they probably won't) at least you tried and left on a high note. I'm so sorry you had to deal with all this. Hope your son feels better soon. Hugs.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
As great as it would be to convince people like this that there are better ways to treat children, it would be like talking to a brick wall. I'm pretty sure not even Ezzo advocates CIO for under 6 mos. I thought I read somewhere on the threads that his first book didn't have that age restriction and there were a lot of failure to thrive cases so the later book added the 6 mos.

Ezzo did put age restrictions (well, recommendations) into his secular books (Babywise et al) but I do not believe they were added to the "Christian parenting" series (Along the infant way, or whatever today's current title). His church-specific stuff is much stronger and much, much harsher than his general audience stuff.

If this family is pastoring a church that subscribes to this philosophy this strongly, I have to agree that your chances of changing them are 0. If this were me, I would have to give them at least 1 chance and would probably email them anti-ezzo stuff and say I was available if they wanted some alternative views. After that, I would break contact because I would definitely not want my children or myself exposed to what they are likely to see and hear in their company.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Maybe go through http://www.ezzo.info/ and send them the information about other Christians that are anti Ezzo? Perhaps someone they respect is on that list.


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

Thanks for the link to the anti Ezzo site... man is this method for real?!!?! I cannot imagine ever treating my children the way he recommends! I am shocked! I am going to pray about this whole thing and figure out what to send to them.. I think they have an online church website... maybe I can pull their email from there. They don't do computers or T.V at home, so i would have to try to send something to the church email for them. I feel so much better after sharing this with all of you.. thank you for the support. I just did not know what to do with my emotions after it all...I was so caught up in my sick baby that this just pushed me over the line. I appreciate the support!!


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

Oh.. is there any site that tells how bad that "train up a child" stuff is to children? I know they said they use something like that too....but I don't know anything about that method either.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Link to a discussion about the Pearls (To train up a child.) Warning, the Pearls are violent and nausea inducing.

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...5&page=1&pp=20


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KingsDaughter76*
I don't really know what to do at this point... I am still in shock over it! I have thought about emailing them, but her DH is a pastor and they are so dead set in their beliefs

Kellina

Ugh, I hope he isn't advising other young gullible parents in his church. What an ignoramus! My SIL always did Babywise w/her babies, too, sort of. She never could let them cry it out, so she would just stress out and rock them and bounce them and panic until she gave in and nursed them, and then she'd complain endlessly about them being "off their schedule". I think they picked up on her anxiety, some, but they didn't ever really have to CIO. If they got mad, she'd immediately give in and she never left them alone. But I still thought it was ridiculously stressful for her. That Ezzo's a creep.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

dr sears has a christian book. if you want to talk to them again you might start a conversation something like, "i heard about this christian parenting book called "christian parenting and child care". have you ever read it? it sounded really good to me."

then you can see where it goes from there. hopefully you're not putting them too much on the defensive 'cause most folks aren't open to different viewpoints when they're defensive and just dig in the heels harder.

the link to it is here -- https://www.askdrsears.com/store/detail.asp?pid=16

Quote:

"The main goal of this book," write Dr. William and Martha Sears, "is to help parents achieve what we believe are the three primary goals of Christian parenting to know your child, to help your child feel right, and to lead your child to Christ."

As the parents of eight, the husband/wife team has extensive first-hand experience in guiding the physical, emotional and spiritual development of children. This all-encompassing book combines a solid biblical workview with a medical professional's understanding of childhood and family development on topics including:

- Commitment to a God-centered life before your children are born

- Overcoming fear of childbirth

- Developing a parenting style

- Help for working mothers

- Discipline

- Schooling

- Sex education

- Single parenting
that situation sounds so so sad. i think sometimes when we say something like, "i just can't let my child cry. i can't stand it," or whatever it can validate what a CIO advocate isfeeling, but is too scared to admit. then again they may be so firm in their "beliefs" that nothing will change them.








to you!


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

i'm just sick. i could not handle it if i saw a mother do this. it's hard enough to witness when the moms are obviously stressed by it, but to be calm about it? ack.


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## pickle it (May 16, 2004)

As for your relationship with these people, I would state very simply that I do not choose to associate with people who abuse their children. Leaving an infant alone to drown in it's own snot is abuse, plain and simple.

I hope God sees fit to reward these lovely people as the so richly deserve. Like spending eternity in pain and misery, screaming for help that never comes.


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## Homeschool Mom (Apr 19, 2005)

I am so sorry that you had to witness such inhumanity to a helpless child and I am sorry for that child as well. But God is looking after her. I am glad that you prayed about how to handle the situation. That is usually the best answer.


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## Tupelo Honey (Mar 24, 2004)

OMG, that just makes me sick. Whenever new moms ask me what I think about Ezzo books (very popular around here, the secular version at least), I say "The only person Gary Ezzo hates more than your baby is you." He's evil, evil, evil.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Wow - I usually stay out of the CIO threads, but your story made me want to cry. I cannot even imagine. That poor, poor little baby.









I have friends who do the Ezzo thing - they live half-way across the world, so I see them once every 3-4 years or so, but we stay in touch via e-mail. We tend to leave the child discipline/etc stuff out of the conversation, for obvious reasons. I know another friend has had long conversations with them about it, trying to convince them that Ezzo was evil, and they never did see it (even though their daughter was failure to thrive thanks to Ezzos feeding advice







).

However, I will say that these friends are very loving parents. They love their children - they just have very warped ideas about parenting them in some respects. I'm not making excuses for them, and I worry about their children, but I know that they love their kids, even while I cannot begin to fathom their discipline methods.

I completely understand the instinct to not have anything else to do with them, but I thought I'd offer a different perspective - perhaps it would be good for them to see an alternative way of parenting? To see a mom who responds to her children and respects them as individuals, rather than forcing obedience through fear and violence? Just a thought...

I would NOT, however, (like other posters) want my children exposed to something like that baby crying without being attended to, and if something like that happened again and the mom refused to attend to the baby and I couldn't, I would make my excuses and leave.

If you did want to send information to them, I doubt the anti-Ezzo stuff will reach parents who are that hard-core. But there are plenty of Bible verses about babies being comforted at their mother's breast, etc - verses that make it pretty clear that a baby has a right to expect safety/comfort from his/her mother, rather than being left alone to scream. Might be worth talking about those kind of passages with them.

There was also a study done on the affects on small babies of being left to cry - it is not pretty. I don't have time now, but you might Google the study and send that along as well. As others have said, I'm sure even Ezzo doesn't recommend CIO before 6 months.

I, too, will pray for that baby. I just can't even begin to imagine.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

I would report them. Leaving an infant, especially such a young one, to cry in hunger for that long is neglectful/abusive. Maybe a visit from child welfare will make them realize that they're doing something extremely wrong. It's obviously far from the first time, if the mother could be that calm it's pretty clear she has no attachment to her baby at all. If they've "parented" their other children this way, I'm really surprised they aren't showing signs of attachment disorder.


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## mumof4 (Aug 12, 2004)

wow what a mess! It is amazing how brainwashed some people can be. I dunno if you could change their ways tho. My suggestion to you is perhaps to try and keep in contact with your friend but donnot take your kids around them. Seperate the family from the friendship I guess. Apparently you still have some things in common and 14 years is alot to throw away. I have a sister who is constantly yelling and slapping her kids. It is hard to totally avoid them, they live out of town however we do get together for family dinners ect. We havent visited their house for over a year now cause my husband and I cannot stand the tension in their home. But anyhow when we get together my kids come home appreciating us for who they are. I whitnessed as my sis slapped her 3 year old on the back of the head omg at the dinner table at that causee yes he wouldnt eat his dinner! He has a flat spot on back off his head, well i piped up with o so that is how he got that flat spot on his head! Not a good scene and she left the table in tears, I guess she realizes there is a problem there just wish she would deal with it. Anyhow we try not to subject ourselves to her faults and concentrate on our common traits.

Hope that helps but do what you feel is best, use your heart it is your family and perhaps you will feel better just cutting your ties and moving on with more responsible people.

Jodie


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I would recommend sticking to the bare facts like that the average age for intentional communication (or "manipulation" as the Ezzos would say) is 8 months. Some babies start as early as 6 months but definitely before that, there is NO intentional communication - it's just a reflex - "I'm cold/sad/hungry/thirsty/wet diaper/ etc so I'm crying". There is NO connection for crying=parents coming to help me. This comes later but not yet. (I do early childhood ed and communication disorders and development, BTW)


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## Nickarolaberry (Dec 24, 2001)

Oh. My. Goodness.

I am sitting here, literally with tears streaming down my face, heart aching, and indigestion, thinking about the suffering of that babe. What a terrible, terrible, rude awakening for a newborn soul. To think that they could literally abuse a miracle from G-d and then claim to be people who guide others in the way of faith is a very frightening and appalling thing. To think that G-d would ever support this kind of behavior is twisted and anyone with a modicum of common sense should be able to see that?!

To my mind this is abuse. I'm not sure how you can proceed because while a visit from cps might scare them into better behavior, it's more likely to make them more defensive and secretive. Are there Christian leaders who publish parenting stuff that is more a-p? I do remember a Mothering article many years back by Dr. Sears on Christian Parenting. Are there others? People to whom this family would look for advice or even consider credible?

Ugh. I doubt I could ever be in their presence again if I was in the same situation but then again, that poor baby.


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## mmmummy (Mar 12, 2005)

oh god...i cant bear my girly to cry like that...she hardly ever cries because she knows we are there for her,but i do know the cry you mean and its enough to make my chest ache with sadness. that poor poor innocent little baby,and the other children too-being spanked (read: hit) i dont know how you were able to stand it without going crazy. i bet you felt like just taking them all home,somewhere safe. i am so sorry..how would they feel if someone did that to them?? if they were helpless and crying and sad and hungry and people just said it was good for them,that they didnt really need love and comfort and food?? or hit them to make them drink a bitter drink..sigh..people are so cruel..

and ps: i hate the ezzo books too. he sucks-big time. heh.


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

I just don't know what to say, I'm in shock. I wish I had some advice.
What I will do is pray for those kids, although I think the parents need more prayers to get them to "wake up"














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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm sitting here just sick sick sick and crying from reading your discription of this...I actulaly had to stop reading.

I don't get it, I just don't get it.

I was once at a neighbors house, former friend, when they were forcing their 2yo to cio in his room. They had the door locked so he couldn't get out. He was clawing at the door and sobbing as if he'd been crying for quite some time - it was such a desperate sound. I was only there for about 5 mins but managed to say 4 or 5 times, "doesn't he need you?" When I walked out I told them they were disgusting for doing this - hence the former friend designation.

I'm not normally so gutsy - this is one area where I just can't keep it in. I wanted to rescue him soooo badly and will always regret that I didn't. I guess I did what I could.


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