# Disney influence, okay or not okay??



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

We've all probably been induced with Disney whether it's been the latest movie like Snow Dogs or an old classic like Bambi, the Disney channel chock-full of kids shows, Disneyland/Disney World, Disney Store, Disney music...

Now that you're a parent, what are your views on Disney? Do you let your child watch them? Why or why not? If not, how do you keep it away? What advantages and/or disadvantages do you see in letting your child be influenced by Disney?


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## peggy (Nov 19, 2001)

I did love Disney movies as child! When Cinderella came on TV, my Nana was the only one with a color TV (I am dating myself I know!) and it was so special, the sleepover we had with Nana watching Cinderella.. My oldest daughter, now 16,was hooked on Disney videos as a child (shame on me) and I do think they affected her. So I very much limit my two younger children watching them. They didn't seem to affect me as a child, but thinking back I maybe saw one, two or three times a year. My DD was at one point watching that many a day!!








As Maya Angelou would say "When You knew better, You did better"

peggy


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i love disney movies

i like the older "classics" the best.

i wish i had a little girl to watch some of the "princess" ones with, my boys will watch with me, but they don't enjoy them in the same way a girl does.

some of their movies aren't so good. i thought some were boring.

most i LOVE

i also love movies with talking animals.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

My baby is only 3 months old, so it isn't an issue yet. However, I have enjoyed most of the Disney stuff all my life. I did draw the line at the animated Hunchback movie. Way too ridiculous.
Plus, my in-laws are Disney freaks. They have annual passes, and routinely exchange gifts of a Disney nature. Even if I wanted to limit Disney stuff, I would lose that battle. Better for me to pick a more important issue to stand my ground on.
With a daughter, I do think it is important to counterbalance the images they see of girls sacrificing everything to win a man, but the movies are more fun than anything else.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

DD is 18 months, MIL sent home 8 or so Disney movie's. She is a disney nut. I think DH has put one on once or twice, but that's it. We stick to the baby mozart/van gogh video's or a video about baby animals I got. I never plunk her down to watch a video, there is always interaction so when she does watch them I know exactly what she is watching. As she gets older I will most certainly limit her exposure to Disney & their movies.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Disney is the ultimate evil corporation. If all they did was make movies, I wouldn't have such a problem with them. But each movie is like a big toy advertisement. Parents are pressured to buy the merchandise and take their kids to McD's to get the happy meal version as well. Then there's Disney wallpaper, clothing, nursery accessories, lamps. Almost any item you can imagine can be bought with some sort of Disney logo on it. Their cable TV station is one giant ad. I removed TV from my house specifically because I hated the Disney channel so much. My children wanted to watch all the time. Even when I said "no TV", as soon as my back was turned I hear "Bear in the Big Blue House" or some other Disney show playing. I've heard that Disney clothing is made in sweatshops. They own ABC and so have a huge influence on what people see. I feel like the Disney corp. won't rest until every household in the world is stuffed with their merchandise.

The movies themselves aren't all bad. I admit I enjoyed the Toy Story movies. 2 yo ds likes Woody a whole lot. He got a Woody doll for Christmas from his grandma. I do object to the way some of the disney movies have taken classic children's literature and "cartoonized" it. Winnie-the-Pooh is the classic example. The books are so sweet and funny, but the movies are trash. Pure trash.


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## robynberkley (Nov 27, 2001)

Didn't get into Disney videos until DD was about 3...probably older. We didn't let her watch TV/videos until then anyway, when we could talk with her and explain what was going on. We've been to Disney (just went on 12/27/01...talk about crowds...don't let them cry poverty!!!) and we didn't buy her the souvenirs and other stuff there...we went for the rides and the "disney experience"...cinderellas castle...seeing Mickey Mouse, etc. The only thing she wanted was a balloon when we left, but then again, she loves ALL kinds of balloons, not just Disney ones.

Kids don't need the commercialism but it is up to parents to control the message.

What bothers me about Disney is the salary of Michael Eisner.







Of course, CEO compensation is the thing that gives me a giant bug up my behind anyway (I have phd in HR so I've studied this stuff and they are way too greedy at the expense of their workers!!!!) Now that Disney is struggling financially according to Eisner, I have no doubt they will start laying off workers while he gets a raise or some other stock options....









SIGH...I still love Winnie the Pooh....









Cheers...Robyn


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, I own every disney video. Because *I* liked disney movies. Once Malia was born I took them and put them up. I started seeing things in disney that I didn't like, and certainly not for my kids. My mother though is a Disney fan and sends us every video.
I despise how girls are portrayed on disney movies. Dress sexy, helpless in need of a hero. It's a regular theme that I find disturbing and certainly not what I want to pass to my daughter.
Then there are things like Pooh Bear, or dumbo... which seemed pretty innocent to me. I lost alot of respect for Disney when I went to get Malia's pictures done and saw two young girls (5-7) getting their pictures taken together. They were wearing close to nothing, and guess whose face was smack dab in the middle of their teeny tiny shirts? Pooh and Tigger! These were little "tube tops" and mini skirts... with disney supporting this. It was just pathetic.
So I have come to view Disney in a poor light, and I don't see myself cuddling up on the sofa with my DD to watch them anytime soon.

Aly


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## flminivanmama (Nov 21, 2001)

I own a few videos that were hand me downs but the kids haven't watched them yet... but we have been to WDW several times since they were born


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## peacemama (Nov 21, 2001)

I have only recently let dd, age three, watch selected Disney videos. Some of them are too violent for my tastes, and many of them have stories that are just too hard for her to understand at all. Lots of them are pretty sexist, too, which is why I think I like Beauty and The Beast the best - even though there's some violence, the heroine is strong and independent and will not give anything just to get a man, like so many Disney heroines will! Whenever she watches a new one I sit with her and we talk about it, explaining the story and challenging any stereotypes. The thing that I object to the most in Disney movies is not the violence or even the occasional sexism, but rather the casual use of slapstick humor. I can't stand the way so many movies made for children present injury as humorous; you know, drop a piano on a guy, have him sit up with crossed eyes and birds tweeting around his head, ha ha very funny. Dd doesn't find this funny at all, thank goodness, and usually acts confused or even upset by it: "Mommy, what happened to that man? He got hurt!" I'm not blaming Disney for this, but is it any wonder that when I was teaching and one of my students tripped on the stairs in school, most of the class laughed and nobody said, "Are you okay?"


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## Avery'sMama (Dec 5, 2001)

Count me as a Disney fanatic! I love Disney and have since I was little. But that doesn't mean I will let DD watch everything made by Disney.

We also go to WDW every other year. Can't wait to take DD in December!

Avery'sMama


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I asked this question because I've been battling myself on this issue lately. I am beginning to see that kids would probably be much better off without the Disney influence in their lives.

When dd showed an interest in Disney around age 2.5yrs (after a visit to Disneyland), I started buying the Disney videos and cd's. I went overboard and went on a two-yearlong buying frenzy of Disney movies. Dd now has most of the movies and several of the music cd's (she LOVES to sing to them and I got a little too enamored by the beautiful singing).

I have always had a problem with how the female is portrayed in most of the movies (ie: Snow White) and often talked w/dd about the problem. The women/girls seem to be able to wipe away their worries with a song (and man!) and that is what mainly bothered me I guess.

We never really bought the clothes because they tend to be cheaply made but not cheaply sold, and I just think a big patch of a Disney character on something otherwise cute cheapens the appearance too. So it's the video-influence that bothers me the most. Dd is still young enough (5yrs) that she doesn't protest if Disney isn't around or seen as much so I have lately limited it a lot and I really do see an improvement. She's not as hooked and she doesn't have to watch it like she used to. She's more interested in nature, and her own creativity hasn't been limited to Disney characters. It's a relief and I'm beginning to see how much Disney really does influence us. Now if I could only get rid of most of these movies without her noticing!


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

Not only do I have a problem with the commercialism, sexism (Men are strong, Women are weak, the heroines all look like Barbie), and the other stuff mentioned, why are there so few families in Disney movies with both parents? When there IS a mom, she is most likely an evil step mother (Cinderella, Snow white) or weak (Lion King).

I just don't see Disney as portraying the values I want my kids to have. Then again, there aren't a lot of movies or tv shows that do.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

I checked the, we have Disney in the house. And yet my boys are totally uninterested in it. They enjoyed Toy Story. single mom from what we could tell, I had no problem with that though I know many did







:
I loved the old classics and have bought them, I think they have been viewed once each







:
There is so much in this world that influences children and I don't think watching a few disney movies is going to be detremental.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

I checked the, we have Disney in the house. And yet my boys are totally uninterested in it. They enjoyed Toy Story. single mom from what we could tell, I had no problem with that though I know many did







:
I loved the old classics and have bought them, I think they have been viewed once each







:
There is so much in this world that influences children and I don't think watching a few diney movies is going to be detemental.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Celestial_
*In college I had a friend who did her dissertation on dialect use in Disney films, and their contribution to racism and stereotyping. It was quite eye opening, and pretty obvious when you watch the movies.*
You have an excellent point, I can't think of one villian that is fair-skinned and light-haired, except maybe the villian in Little Mermaid (can't remember name) but she was big-bodied and obnoxious (to say the least). I think it goes beyond a battle between light/good & dark/evil. Does anyone have more insight on this?


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## feather (Jan 5, 2002)

I find many of the Disney movies to be frightening and upsetting. I remember as a small child feeling so upset and disturbed by Bambi when the mom is killed in the fire and Bambi is left motherless, wandering the woods alone and crying. Isn't that a huge fear of many little kids???to lose their mom somehow?? who wants to sit there as a child and see a movie that ends this way? Too much harsh reality if you ask me. Maybe I am too sensitive, but even Dumbo broke my heart. And Old Yellar - forget it!

The sexism bothers me, the commercialism bothers me, and the violence bothers me.

On the other hand...............we DO have the Disney channel in our cable package, and dd is allowed to watch Bear in the big blue house, Roley Poley Olie, and Winnie the Pooh. No Little Mermaid - too scarey for little ones. I just really disagree with the violence. Why is it necessary for kids???????

I will never be a big consumer of Disney garb, but I would like to go there with dd some day. Everything in moderation I think. And I am not saying that I would ban all Disney movies, just the ones I think are inappropriate.

just my .02








JR


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## stlcjb (Nov 19, 2001)

We own Disney videos. We started to collect them even before dd#1 was born. I grew up with "The Wonderful World of Disney". DD#1 likes some of the movies. 101 dalmations is one of her favs. She likes to watch ones with animals and she also likes Toy story, but not as much now. (She's real into Halloween stuff now?!?!?)

A note on strong female roles . . . have any of you all seen Mulan? VERY strong herione. It is one my dh and my favarite movies of all times. Great story based on an old Chinese (sorry about the spelling, never was really good at it) tale. Great music too.


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## Sagesgirl (Nov 22, 2001)

Okay, I hate Disney, but not for a reason I have seen mentioned here. As a child, I was a _huge_ fan of fairy tales & folklore. And everything Disney has touched, it has ruined. My biggest peeve is _The Little Mermaid_. Guess what, there's a moral to the story. Ariel does NOT get her guy. I could go on...But that's a separate rant.

DH knows my feelings about Disney, & while it confuses him to an extent, he knows better than to cross me. :LOL Perhaps if they left more of their stories "as is" I wouldn't have such a problem.

Though I must admit the rampant commercialism bugs me too. Disney this, Disney that...I support it a little because I refuse to give up Winnie the Pooh (which wasn't always owned by those *****!). But the endless array of toys for each new film really irks me.

We'll see how it plays out with the rest of the family. Disney doesn't bug me enough to violate my "to each his own" bit, so if MIL sends us Disney videos (which I imagine she will, I've seen the collection she bought for BIL's daughter), we'll probably just pass them on to my cousin Margaret.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

OK I confess we love and own Toy Story and I will be buying tarzan and Emporors New Groove soon. Other than that we have a strict no disney policy in our house. We even got rid of all the hand me down disney clothes. We only do classic Pooh. I think most of the movies are just too scary, too violent, or portray women to stupidly.


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## zealsmom (Nov 22, 2001)

I own Fantasia (but no tv or vcr) and that is the extent of disney in our house. Actually, I just looked around and remembered that we have a stuffed Pooh and a magnet on the fridge from Disney. I will probably end up taking ds to Disneyland at some point in his life, but it will most definitely be when he is old enough to carry on a conversation that goes something like this:
"Wasn't that a fun ride? Isn't that curious how you have to walk through the store after the ride? They sure are trying to get us to buy their stuff." We hope to create a media-literate kid who can think about these things himself instead of being sheilded from them.


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## Elismama (Jan 2, 2002)

We don't have a tv, so Disney movies are currently not an option- which I am grateful for. I hate the way Disney took a beautifully understated Winnie the Pooh and turned him into a bright yellow, smiley bear.

Recently some folks with older children passed on a bunch of audiotapes, I put in Disney's version of pinnochio and was completely annoyed with how they took an excellent story and dumbed it down. They have done the same with Pooh- trying to make the books "accessible" to young children, but loosing the beautiful prose that makes them so wonderful. There are so many excellent books out there, why in the world should my son waste his time on watered down versions of good stories.

Kids are open to everything, and I think much of their aesthetic sense is developed so young in life, I try to provide Eli with beautiful images, music, and stories, and opportunities to create so that his senses are enriched, not diminished. I can't help but feel that Disney diminishes.


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## Julie (Nov 20, 2001)

My kids dont care overly much for Disney (or TV for that matter) but I have been collecting disney videos for as long as I can remember, I even had peter pan on Reel to Reel


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## Mommy22B (Nov 20, 2001)

I agree with moderation in all things. I don't think Disney is God, or even very good. It is just a business. And as a business has no responsibility to my child. That is where i come in.







As dd is getting older I am looking more at the movies we watch (we don;t have cable). We have thrown out a lot of adult movies that were just too violent. Now I am getting even more sensitive and will probably soon throw out some more movies, probably even some Disney. I like the shows that arent too violent and sexy. The Emporers New Groove is one I can think of that we want to buy., It is just silly and funny and not violent in any real way. There is also no GIRL. Just a pregnant mother and wife.








Anyway, we will never ban all of Disney and I love Disneyland so we will definately go someday, but we won't just accept everything they give us either. We will screen it just like everything else.
Beth


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## Forest Sage (Nov 22, 2001)

It is my belief that it is the ultimate goal of Disney to rule the universe. I was not even one week postpartum with Donnie when Grolier Limited called my house to inform me that I was so lucky now that I "have a little one to share in the magic of Disney." The telemarketer was pretty rude and pushy, and even after I told her I didn't want to take part in their free offer (Lion King, Mulan, Little Mermaid, Jungle Story, The Search for Christopher Robin plus more I can't recall) she told me they would be coming anyway!
I didn't argue with her because I was still in the swing of having the baby blues...but if I would have known how difficult it was going to be to get rid of those friggin books I would have just hung up on her!
If I had wanted out of the Disney-indoctrination shackles, I needed to phone Grolier and inform them in person that I wanted out of their book club. Their phone number was next to impossible to get, I had to phone the operater and tell her how difficult it was for me to get in touch with the company....
anyways to make an already long story shorter, as peggy pointed out, when I knew better I did better. That is an example of how corporate a hospital birth can be, as Grolier is a part of a large network of companies that are "informed" if you have your child in a hospital!
I had problems with Disney before, but that put the icing on the cake for me. I can't stand the way the market is saturated with Disney characters, we can't escape.
Everything in moderation, sure. And I'm a tolerant, reasonable person. But I HATE Disney!


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## robynberkley (Nov 27, 2001)

Grolier headquarters is in Danbury CT...FYI! I grew up there and had several friends who worked there. If you ever have problems like that again, let me know. I think my girlfriend's mom is the sec'y to the president or something important like that! I'd be happy to help shake them up a bit if you have another problem!!

Robyn


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## Forest Sage (Nov 22, 2001)

Thanks for the info Robyn. I know this is straying from the original intent of the thread though...but its also relevent because this is one of the subtle ways that children are marketed to, and Disney is one of the biggest offenders as far as I'm concerned.
The incident in question happened almost four years ago. I'm generally an assertive person, especially when it comes to telephone solictors (although I'm never impolite with them as they are people trying to make a living just like the rest of us). But I do remember it, because the woman tried to insinuate that there was something wrong with me because I didn't want a collection of Disney books for my one-week-old. I'm not bitter about it, and I am wiser for the experience. Grolier was not the only company that was harrassing me after we got home from the hospital. Should I ever have another child, I would definately make sure that the hospital didn't put my name on "the list." But then again, I would probably have a home birth anyways.

I must say, the only magical thing about Disney is the fact that they can weasel their way into even the most barricaded home!


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Like Yammer, we are immune to merchantising that we do not need. On the whole though, I enjoy toys that come with some movies.

On Disney, we have them all, and edit them all. There are many scenes fome Disney that are simply not appropriate for young children.

a


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

Toy Story and Monsters are cute. The cartoons ar ewell imagined and beautifully animated. Donald Duck is great.
It would be hard to totally boycott Disney, but I thnk it promotes endless consumerism and supports child labor. Disneyland is miserable and expensive and is the Crappiest Place On Earth. That said, I doubt I will avoid it totally, just as I will be unable to shield ds from many things I don't like. So I will strive to educate and monitor him.


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## realramona (Nov 22, 2001)

My family loves Toy Story 1 and 2 and I love the original Winnie the Pooh movie(not as good as the book). I know there are so many problems with Disney movies especially the older ones dealing with racism and sexism. I refuse to ever let my kids watch Dumbo because I think it is really racist and I don't like Little Mermaid because she gives up her life for a man and the real story of the Little Mermaid does not end that way, but on the other hand Belle form Beauty and the Beast is so cool and smart. I would not mind my dd watching it at all. I guess it just depends on the movie. I do try to avoid buying Disney merchandise but if we get something as a gift I don't get offended or anything.........Stephanie


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## wimbini (Nov 22, 2001)

At least, Minnie had a magical effect on our seven week old baby. I guess there is a good reason that Mickey Mouse et al are cultural icons. My dh was stuck in my little sister's room and there were no toys of any kind except for a Minnie Mouse doll. Our dd loved it, even at her tender age! My sister gave my dd the Minnie Mouse doll, and it is still her favorite toy. We bought her a teeny weeny Mickey mouse and she loves that, too.

So there must be something incredibly appealling to kids in those mice.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

For all the reasons you very eloquent posters have mentioned, I hate DISNEY: for its racism, sexism, violence, commercialism. Although I like the very little I know about the man named WALT DISNEY (smart, creative, tenacious-he went to 100 banks before he convinced one to loan him money, good business person.) I got a kid's book to read his biography, so I may change my mind about him.

My dd has NEVER watched a TV show or movie - she thinks that TV is for watching videos of herself. She doesn't know who Mickey Mouse is.

Only recently has she seen one movie-OH NO, my mistake, it was DISNEY. Why did I take her? Monster's Inc., where there are only two women - a sex bomb monstress chasing all over Monstropolis her boyfriend and wondering if she is ever going to understand "men." Another is a hideous monster - no personality, probably no love life or family- but very powerful in the "government." Actually she is number one in the agency. I guess the message is you can either be the beautiful receptionist chasing a man, or a powerful ugly woman with no life. Luckily my baby is too young to understand the story and only loves the cute little girl running around saying "Boo." Also, the monsters in the movie go around scaring children for "scream energy." We are supposed to sympathize with these monsters for terrorizing children in order to get energy to drive their cars. It sounds like US and the Middle East to me.


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## miasmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I love Hailey Mills Movies!
Most of the "cartoons" suck in my opinion but Toy Story and Mulan are great. Is Monsters Inc a Disney? We like that too


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## Katrina (Jan 10, 2002)

I kind of lied on the poll, but none of the choices really fit us. We have a couple of Disney movies from when I was a kid, but I do not plan on letting my daughter watch them. I hate the portrayal of women in their movies. I also do not like the general ideas addressed in Disney movies, not that they are really evil or anything, just kind of useless. There is no educational value in anything they do. I also feel like there is no room for imagination, that Disney wants to do it all for you. I will be reading the fairy stories to my kids. I also do not like disney as a corporation. They do use sweatshop labor, and market to kids. Marketing to kids is one of my pet peeves.  I would not freak out if my daughter at some point is exposed to disney by family or friends, but it will not be an influence in our home.


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## coracle (Jul 18, 2002)

I fall into the "moderation in all things" camp. So far we treat Disney like anything else: videos come from the library or as gifts, not from the store. If a gift vidoe is violent or scary it gets put away before he sees it. A lot of Disney movies seem to me inappropriate for kids under 8 or 10 because of the scary things that happen, and the old ones contain casual violence, racism etc. just like all media from that era so we won't see them until we can discuss that meaningfully. We don't have cable, ds watches public TV and videos, and the ads there are just for other shows and vidoes, not merchandise. Actually I think the main influence in his life toward wanting character merchandise is not from media in our home but from other kids and caregivers at daycare and the Y, where mainstream culture involves trying to interest kids in characters as a way to connect, distract, cheer up, etc.

Pooh or Mickey clothes at the consignment sale are fine if they are in good condition at a good price. Other branded items are fine if I was going to buy one anyway and the branded one doesn't cost extra. I don't buy anything at the Disney store for the same reason I don't go to the mall at all--too pricey and I hate the sensory overload.

At 2 1/2 ds doesn't yet know to ask for stuff in the store--he sometimes wants to look at character toys (though he doesn't recognize most of them yet) but doesn't yet ask to take them home. I'll be interested to see when the begging starts. He now wants a (unbranded) toy bulldozer like in one of his videos. We talk about how fun it is to imagine getting one, and that we get new toys at birthday and Christmas, not just whenever we see them.

Easy for me to talk while he is little--ask me again in a few years and I probably will have caved more often and despised Disney more often.

-Sue


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

For all the reasons posted above, I am a Disney despiser. We don't have a tv or vcr, so videos aren't an issue, but I don't let the books into the house. I'm most bothered by the sexism and the lack of mothers in most of the Disney movies I've seen or read about. And also, that it isn't just stories - Disney is a brand that is marketing itself to kids directly, which gives me the shivers.

But my main objection is aesthetic. I grew up with kid's books illustrated by great artists like Trina Schart Hyman and Tasha Tudor. Also my mom's old color fairy books (The Blue Fairy Book, etc.) with those wonderful black and white drawings by HJ Ford. After being exposed to that, Disney art strikes me as ugly, tacky and vulgar. It's not what I want around my son.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Wow, I don't think I've seen such an even poll here before.

IMO, most things in moderation are fine.


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## Luma (Nov 21, 2001)

ds doesnt watch videos but the other day he found one of those disney books with a record (turn the page when you hear tinkerbell sound or whatever) that we used to listen to when we were kids. It was that dog story Lady and the tramp (sp?) and he wanted us to read it. So we did but now we are editing the weird parts as well, (too many) when he wants to re read it (a lot!)
Like the male dog appears to be all knowing and keeps on telling her things like "you are too innocent, beauty, and know nothing about the world, I will show you, you have a lot to learn, you just dont know" she just looks at him with huge vacant eyes... weird
also he tells her all wise again that not having an owner and not wearing a collar "its the only way to be happy" and treats her as if she was stupid because she wears one and because at one point she wants to go back home.
When they do go back home he ends up accepting her way of life (DUH) and becomes a dog with a collar etc. But he is still portrayed as the smarty a** one. And also there is a line saying "I will never understand women"
He is dumb but is made as if it was cool to not be able to understand a person or doggie!
Anyways this is our Disney experience so far with ds.
I used to love this story and many other disney ones as a kid! But now


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

Are there any disney video's that you all think are ok? What about The jungle book? Or Oliver and company? My DH put on the fox & the hound (I could have killed him) and now she loves it but the hunter degrades the women a lot, they argue & there is a lot of violence. What about pooh? I can't stand the marketing stuff for pooh & some of the clothing for girls with pooh or tigger on it is discusting but what about the stories? Being on the marketing issue, doesn't Barney mass market the same way?
I am not a disney fan, my DD will never watch 99% of the video's but I am wondering about some of them.
Input on the ones you see as appropriate & why would be great ladies


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## Luma (Nov 21, 2001)

just to add that Im also guilty of editing other kind of books and stories I find violent or scary and that have nothing to do with Disney! And the main reason we edit is because of the amount of times ds wants his books read. Recently we went to a friends house and the kids were watching disney movies and I honestly didnt care if ds wanted to watch some (he didnt) is the repetition of ideas that I care about!


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

We watch some Disney but are not obsessed by it. I was wondering, though, why someone said Dumbo is racist? I saw that movie but it has been YEARS & I can't recall any part that would offend.

Also, I must admit that I LOVE Eeyore.

Thanks for noticin' me!









Love, Jenny


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## AutumnWind (Apr 16, 2002)

Dh loves Disney, and Disney World. I love the 'old' Disney movies, both cartoons and musicals. I agree with the moderation camp.

And I realize in our capitalist society, there will be toys sold after each movie. I just say no to the stuff I think is accessive. That's my job as a parent.


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## kakies (Aug 8, 2002)

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has already been mentioned...

I have an 8mo little girl and I was just recently analyzing this issue. I didn't know anyone else had questions about Disney being good or bad. Anyway I made a quick review (in my mind ) the other day of all of the Disney movies I have seen. Well I came to the conclusion that I just don't like the underlying messages these movie and story books give to children.

Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Alladin, the Lion King, A bug's Life, all of them!!! Come to think of it - movies in general like The Wizard of Oz for example are sending out the wrong message. I noticed that the cute characters were always the good guys and the ugly characters were always the bad guys. The pretty ones are usually popular and have real friends but the ugly ones only have partners in crime. Is that true in real life? So if my daughter grows up and meets a cute guy--- does this make him a "good guy" "a prince" and will he (because he's cute) just sweep her off her feet and they end up living happily everafter??? I don't think so! Will boys only go for the knock-out Cinderella's and overlook all the others. It happens too often, maybe it's time for a change.

Another thing, does this mean that it's good to be pretty and bad to be ugly? I don't want my daughter to judge others or herself based on beauty. She definately is a beautiful baby, but will she always fit into the 'beautiful' category? Acne, weight problems, pregnancy, wrinkles, gray hair, even accidents happen-- will these things make her feel ugly or unhappy? I wouldn't want her to feel lesser than anyone OR better than anyone because of physical appearances.

Just my opinion.


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## familyfirst (Aug 21, 2002)

My 22 month old has only seen part of a Disney movie at grandpa's house and started to cry because of a scean that frieghtened him. If that is doing this to him now what will all the other movies do when he can not so freely express his emotions?/


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

We have ten Disney videos (I just went and counted!) and I am fine with Disney in general. I know people who have hundreds of Disney videos and I think it is way overkill to have every one ever made.
Kim asked what Disney videos people liked. I agree with the poster who mentioned Mulan. It is really a great movie - I think Disney's best. Strong, smart female lead, not afraid to buck the system, takes risks to protect her family, shows some aspects of actual history that I think will make kids more likely to be interested in what I had previously thought to be a dry subject. Check it out at the library and watch it first without your kids to see what you think. I like both Toy Story movies and Beauty and the Beast. Both our girls LOVE Little Mermaid and LM2. I am a huge Robin Williams fan so like Aladdin (although at first watching I thought it was awful as I was bothered by Aladdin's taking bread from the market - but they later show him giving it to hungry homeless kids instead of eating it himself). Have not seen the Emporer's New Groove yet but also love David Spade's humor so am planning to rent that one soon.
I think Monsters Inc. may have been Pixar but taking dd1 to that at age 5 was the biggest mistake. Way too scary! I thought the premise of the monsters being scared of the girl would be refreshing for kids to understand but other parts (monsters hiding in kids' closets, the scream extractor, the disappearing and reappearing villian monster) were awful.
I have been to Disneyland at ages 8, 18, 20, and 31. DH and I spent our honeymoon at Disney World when I was 22. Our girls have been to Disneyland once (older one was 4 1/2 - a very fun age to go IMO) and we plan to go back when the younger one is 4. Yes, there is commercialism but it is everywhere. I loved the idea one person mentioned of talking to the kids about how you have to go through the gift shops to exit the rides and how they are trying to get you to buy something.
Trying to think of Disney merchandise that the kids have... Some princess costumes in the dress up box, a couple of Ariel swimsuits/towels, a handful of tee shirts and nightgowns, a couple of Ariel dolls, a few books. I much prefer Disney stuff to Barbie stuff! I had a Barbie ban going for the first three or four years of dd1's life but finally gave in - first one allowed was a sleepover Skipper doll (she wore jammies and had flat feet). Then once friends/relatives heard she had one...
Interesting thread - thanks!
Kirsten


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Disney is dripping with hippicrosey(okay, spelling is out of whack...)
Disney is in the top 5 of using child labour...a company for kids using kids?????????? I can't get past that.
I have not spent a penny on disney items, nor will I ever.
Having said that, my mom and dad get dd disney movies, as they know that I enjoyed them as a child...peter pan and pinochio were favorites of mine. When I see them now, I am so torn, as I know that they shouldn't even be in my house...and there they are.
I will not bring dd to disneyland even though I've been there as a child SEVERAL times. This is an issue with my parents....
Always,

Mamasoleil


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## shanleysmama (Mar 9, 2002)

I tried to vote but it wouldn't go thru. I started collecting Disney videos years ago, pre-children. Now that my oldest is 3, I am definitely reconsidering! They are violent, there's lots of name calling, characters dying, mean step-parents, etc. None of the girl characters have 2 parents, usually missing a dad - Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Snow White; or the dad is old and there is no mom - Beauty & the Beast, The Little Mermaid and Aladdin; the girls have to be "rescued", etc. Parents geting killed - Bambi, Lion King, Fox and the Hound. Skinning dogs for coats in 101 Dalmations, with lots of name calling.
The stereotyping is terrrible. Luckily, most of the videos are going bad - they constantly go from color to black & white, and the sound goes off when the color goes off. When they get bad, I toss them and do not replace them.
OTOH, I love Bear in the Big Blue House, and DD loves Rolie Polie Olie and Pooh.
Melanie


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Here's the thing. I love Walt Disney. I think he was a visionary. He had a great imagination and was very talented. The early stories he made films of were already in the public and being told to children, so he didn't foist, say... Cinderella on the world. He just created a beautifully drawn version of the story.

I love Disneyland... or at least I did. Walt had a dream of creating a place that was as much fun for a kid as a carnival or a fair but better, because everything didn't have to be collapsable. He modeled lots of it on things he has seen traveling in Europe and wanted to share with people who maybe would never go to Europe and see real castles. He wanted retired folks to come in on like weekdays and stroll through the shops and feed the birds. He really did build a beautiful wonderland. When you walk down Main Street the castle looks far away because the buildings at the far end of the street are shorter and even the bricks are smaller scale. That way the castle looks far off and magical. And on the way out Main Street looks real short. Which is nice, cuz you're tired. He used real gold leaf everywhere he could. He cared so much about that place. The day before they opened the plumbers told him they were behind. He could have toilets or running water everywhere else. He said fine, do the toilets and then he brought in a bunch of ice and bottles of Coke and gave them away since you couldn't drink from the water fountains and it would be uncivilized not to give people something to drink on a hot day.

And when he died the things went downhill fast. His brother was far more mercenary and had some serious axes to grind. Consider this... his brother (Donald? I forget) banished mustaches from Disneyland. No one hired after the ban could get or keep a job in the park without being clean shaven. He said they made men look slovenly. Ya ever see a pic of Walt? What's the most prominent thing on his face? Yeah... exactly. And don't even get me started on Eisner.

But golly, I'll be carrying a torch for Walt for years to come.


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## mtn. mama (Jul 30, 2002)

I couldn't get my vote to go through but......I found myself voting the third choice. I strive in my heart for the first choice and the last one made me :LOL.

It is impossible to stay away from. Yes, I too had Grolier practically knocking on my door after my first born. I got suckered initially and got out ASAP. I hate those books. And I think that the original Whinnie the Pooh is the best. The hand sketched black and white illustrations. And when I have also given into stopping at McDonalds it is always in the Happy Meals. Bleeaaach! Everywhere I turn there it is. I have never been to one of their theme parks and never will.

But I did watch all the movies as a child. They are ingrained upon my mind as well as the music. And I do agree that the jazz from The Jungle Book is enjoyable. Also, the Toy Story pics are done well. But definitely unhappy with many others. I think they are not a necessary childhood experience. Know what I mean? Blessings, mtn.mama


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh, one last thing in defense of my boyfriend Walt... When he made those movies I would guess his target audience was around 10-12 years old and that they would see the film once, in a theater, as a treat. I don't expect he could have imagined 4 year olds watching them daily in their homes, nor do I expect he would think it all wise.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

You have some great points Kama'aina Mama







Disney did make a huge turn for the worst after Walt Disney's death. I think he would be devastated with the present-day Disney, no matter what the profit.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

kama'aina mama

Thanx for the background on the man and his family. Sounds perfectly possile to me.

I noticed you are from Hawaii. Although we try to keep my 4.5 year old dd away from Disney (and most popular media-we don't have a TV that works really well and the only video's we own are of her), sometimes we do slip. Right now, my dd is going around telling everybody she is Lilo and that she is from Hawaii. She shows them how she can sing Hawaiin songs and also play guitar and sing Elvis songs. She is a pretty good actor so some little kids really believe she is the real Lilo.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Ruth, that is hilarious! I haven't seen the movie yet. My daughter is only two, so it's kind of a non-issue. I grew up in Southern California though and worked at Disneyland for a while in college.


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, I have a slightly different take.

I won't have most of the movies in my house, they are sexist and violent. We don't do the merchandise, over priced and shoddy.

For some reason, the children's movies I like best seem to be from other companies. Pixar, et al

But I love love love Disney World. The place is amazing. Even if you don't factor in the attractions that are strictly movie based, there is so much available in one place that I really enjoy myself there.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

We have almost all the Disney movies, I bought most before I ever had kids. I myself LOVE Disney. Kama I too Love Walt and feel that he was a visionary. He did make most of his movies for older kids, to be seen in the theater and also the stereotypes back then were completely acceptable so we cannot fault him for that. I love the feeling you get walking down Main Street. I will never forget the feeling I got the first time I saw Cinderella's Castle when I was in 10th grade. Our band was chosen to march in the parade with the characters, it was so amazing.

That said I do agree that there is stereotyping in most of the movies, and I guess why it doesn't bother me as much is that I have boys. I do talk with them about how these are not real and what things I do not like. He didn't start watching them at all until my oldest was almost 3. It does not hurt that neither of my boys are very easily scared, this could be a problem for children that ARE easily scared. My youngest, 2, really has no interest in these movies, they are too long, my oldest 4 loves the battle scenes but also likes the music. I have the sing along videos as well and they love them! He knows that these are not real people and that when they do mean things he says why they are wrong. We just came back from Disney (April 2002) and we had the most amazing truly magical time. My kids LOVED the place. I had tears in my eyes as they got to meet their favorite characters. My oldest even got to be in the parade with Alice in Wonderland, I don't know who was more excited him or I. We must have went on the pirate ride like 12 times! We are planning to go back in 2004 when my youngest is 4.

We do not buy most Disney merchandise. I don't like the kids wearing character clothes in general, and they are made very cheaply as well. As far as toys, we really never buy the tie in toys. I do allow them to get the Happy Meal Toys and do try to get the Disney related ones, but I rarely shop at the Disney Store. I feel that the Happy Meal toys are a cheaper way to go, plus they get a meal (We have though recently been trying to stay away from fast food places in general). I also try to limit how often they watch the videos and try to balance them with educational ones, the There Goes A....series is very good and the boys love them.

Joesmom I think the thing with the Dumbo video (which my oldest just saw and has been wanting to watch) is that the mouse in the story gets done up in black face. Obviously this would not be acceptable today. Is that what whoever made the comment meant?


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks! That has been bugging me! I'll have to rent it & see for myself!

BTW, Moon, you said:

Quote:

For some reason, the children's movies I like best seem to be from other companies. Pixar, et al
Pixar is affiliated w/ Disney. And I quoted you because I just figured out how to do it recently & I am a big geek!

Love, Jenny


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## hahamommy (Dec 18, 2001)

One of my earliest and bestest memories is seeing Aristocats in the theatre with Aunt Donna







, we sang all the way home... in order to learn more words, she took me to the movie again the next week. I had the read along book w/record (remember the small black vinyl thingies?)... it was all about the music!!! *everybody wants to be a cat, because a cat's the only cat, who knows where it's at...*
We have big discussions over all the movies we watch and I don't censor my children very much. Personally, I *hate* Beauty and the Beast ~ If you just love him enough, he won't be a monster anymore







: but notice how he is still a beast in the sequels??? I thought her love cured him??? I also hated Alladin, but Jasmine is the only dark skinned heroine for DD to relate to, so I allow it. Mulan ROCKS!!! And *only* because Disney made this movie did China admit she was real! (she did *not* have the hero's welcome Disney rightfully gave her) I only allow the three Classic Pooh stories (from Wonderful World of Disney era), I also hate what they've done to him (remember when Sears was the only place to get Pooh??) The last movie DH took the kids to (...and Madeline, too







) was Toy Story 2, we loved it!! And we do enjoy all that Pixar offers, hey as a struggling new animation company, it was probably quite flattering to have an offer from Disney.
DH also really wanted to do Disneyland with his kids. As his health declined we joked about being able to cut to the front of the line







He didn't make it, so after his 2nd funeral, I took the kids to Disneyland in his honor. Now it is our tradition to remember him there every December. (remember the commercials, "hey, you just won the Superbowl, whatcha gonna do now?" mine is "Hey kids, your dad just died and you've been to two funerals, whatcha gonna do now?? ~ We're going to DISNEYLAND!!!" :LOL
I don't like the commercialism there and I especially have a hard time with all the NESTLE everywhere!! (Strollers, nursing rooms, changing tables, etc all sponsored by NESTLE!!) All part of raising educated consumers, I guess...

As I type this, the kids are playing Lilo and Stitch, complete with funny voices


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## hahamommy (Dec 18, 2001)

P.S. I cannot stomach Pochahontas... can I point out the girl was 12?!?!?! and the only thing John Smith gave her was Small Pox!!! I caught some of the Part II, it's a cartoon verson of "torn between two lovers"


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Wow, Kama I have to say we read a lot about Disney's life growing up and you are right on every point.

People can say what they want, but one trip to Six Flags should reveal to an open minded person that Disney World is far superior in every way as a family experience. I truly and completely feel like I am going to another little world. The entire operation runs like a flawless machine. I have been many times and have never once seen an employee making smart ass remarks, looking bored or irritated, smoking, or joking around with the staff while ignoring patrons.

I think they do an amazing job of making it an "experience"...from the minute you arrive (you cannot drive up to the park, you have to leave the car and travel either by boat or monorail to the gates, which makes it feel like a voyage). Kids love it. I had a blast as a child. My son has a blast. Like Kama said the landscaping and the architecture is really amazing, all designed to create the feeling that you are entering a magic kingdom. Security is amazing. We have been post Sept. 11 and there were plainclothes security EVERYWHERE. In the bathrooms, on the sidewalks, on every corner (you can id them by the earpiece they had on).

Even the patrons are well behaved from what I have seen. It is so culturally diverse, and I have met people from all over the world.

At Six Flags the service is HORRIBLE. the park is FILTHY. The employees are high schoolers who could not care less. Rough crowds of teenagers practically knock us over as we walk around, and I feel more like I'm at the fair than a vacation resort.

Flame if you want, but I won't deny that I have fun at the park itself.

Heartmama


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## Lemon Balm (Jan 23, 2002)

I have allowed Disney. At first w/oldest dd I didn't. Then, it became too difficult to battle with family & her school peers. I think people let children watch Disney stuff way too young. Snow White's step-mother sending the hunter to cut out her heart is a really scary scene. I hate the part in Peter Pan where they going out to hunt down "The Engines" and wouldn't let the girls watch that one. And what the hell is up with the drunk donkeys in Pinnochio?







That's not even mentioning the sexism/racism. My approach has been to talk about it with dd. I've tried to limit Disney & t.v. in general. We are trying to wean from this and now that we're homeschooling I feel that will be much easier.


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## mama2jonah (Jun 27, 2002)

I agree that Walt Disney was a pretty good guy, and that Disney World is probably really fun, but as of now the company is not what it was. It's a powerful corporation trying to manipulate our children.

And I have an a opionion about the movies that nobody has mentioned yet. Almost every Disney movie eludes to spiritism in some way. Not only are the villains scary for young children, but most of them are overtly spiritistic. Now I know families who are not christian probably won't take issue with this, but I know there are moms on these forums who are Christian.

Just think about some of the cartoons: The Lion King has a chanting shaman monkey, Snow White's Stepmother is a wicked witch with evil powers, Ursula of The Little Mermaid has evil powers, there is a wicked witch in Sleeping Beauty, the little girl in Lilo and Stitch teaches herself how to practice voodoo, and I could probably go on and on. But you get the picture. Why is spiritism such a recurring theme with Disney? And it's not just the old fairy tales, it's the contemporary stories as well.

Has anyone else been bothered by this?


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

I have never heard of spiritism, but now that I read your post, I understand what it is. And, I agree Disney should not practice it.

Just one more -ism to add to Disney.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I am one of those who has also never heard the term "spiritism" but I am not bothered by what it is referring to in these movies.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the stories Disney turns into feature animated films are based on very very old fairy tales that have been around for hundreds of years, and often come from other countries. The Little Mermaid, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty...these are all very old stories. Disney does not make them up. In fact, in almost every case they make them MUCH more cheerful than the original story intended (for example, the real Little Mermaid turns into sea foam at the end of her story). To me, if a story is based on an African tale (Lion King) or a Hawain tale (Lilo and Stitch) it makes sense to incorporate that culture into the story in some way. I don't know whether those movies are based on traditional folk tales from those countries, but as they are based within those countries, I think you should take the references to other religions within that context.

Just my opinion....

Heartmama


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## mtn. mama (Jul 30, 2002)

Yes, there are quite alot of very grim fairy tales in their original form. And perhaps the Disney versions are a bit more cheerful. But, I definitely think that there are themes that are not necessary. And I would include the spiritual aspect. I would imagine that children would still be able to sit and enjoy the movie minus the different forms of spiritual practice represented. Again, is it integral? mtn.mama


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well, if someone finds the concept of "magic" to be originally offensive to them, then yes they will have a problem with the entire Disney empire IMO. I mean, there slogan right now is "Remember the Magic!" for goodness sake







:

I don't see how you could tell the story of the Little Mermaid or Sleeping Beauty or any of that without a magical element. A talking animal is 'magic'. Any curse or spell or phenomenon not present in nature is 'magic'. Very few fairy tales involve ordinary people in ordinary circumstances. Biblical stories would appear to involve 'magic' to a person not familiar with Christianity. I mean, burning bushes talking and floods covering the earth etc. I watched a Veggie tales where they were saved from a fire in a chocolate bunny factory by the light of Jesus.

If people are asking why they don't just leave the magic out, I would wonder what stories really involve no magical phenomenon that still have entertainment value to kids from all cultures. I'm trying to think of some but offhand, all the ones that do not have magical events involve talking animals (Fox and the Hound for example)...

Heartmama


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

I am sure that mama2jonah can be more eloquent than I because this is the first time I ever heard about spiritism. But, I'll give it a shot.

There is nothing about magic that is offensive. What is offensive is that it is portrayed only in a negative way (voodo, evil potions, etc.). Just like there is nothing wrong with stepmothers, but if you are only showing "evil" ones like Disney and other popular media, you send the wrong message. Not all stepmothers are evil: most love their children with all of their hearts and give and give and give just like we birth mothers do.

I know that somebody here will come up with a movie where the stepmother is TERRIFIC, but those are exceptions, not the norm.


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## elisma (Apr 21, 2003)

does anyone know anything about walt disney the man? i suggest reading the first three chapters of "fastfood nation" by eric schlosser.


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## AutumnWind (Apr 16, 2002)

We love Disney here. We have many of the classic movies on DVD. We visit Disney world often with my 2-year-old. We have a wonderful time as a family.

We don't loose our identity or change our APing ways when we're visiting Disney world. I breastfeed my toddler all over Disney. I use a sling or my dh puts him in a backpack carrier all over the parks. We cosleep at Disney, try to eat reasonably healthy, and use gentle discipline at Disney.

Our enjoyment of Disney World and Disney movies doesn't change our loving, AP parenting style at all.

We also love Grimms Fairy Tales, and other classic children's literature. I also enjoy psychoanalytic and social analyses of folk tales, fairy tales and other ancient stories. In college I took several classes on it, which were fascinating.

Anyway, to each their own. I think each parent knows what's best for their own children. I would never judge any other parent for enjoying Disney, or for choosing to ban Disney. We're all intelligent parents and we know what's best for our own individual families.

Peace.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by elisma_
*does anyone know anything about walt disney the man? i suggest reading the first three chapters of "fastfood nation" by eric schlosser.*
I read a children's biography book about Walt Disney to my 5-year-old. Of course, it was a children't book so they didn't put anything bad in there. Tell us what the first three chapters of "fastfood nation" said.

Since this thread started a long time ago, my daughter read Jungle Book and loved it. We even read the ORIGINAL version and she loved it. Of course, Mowgli is a girl in our house. I wouldn't read any of the princess crap to her.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I didn't vote either cause I didn't know where I fit.

We have some of the videos and my kids adore them. My dds are Chinese, and I very much like Mulan as there are so few stories that show Asians in a positive light. (Yes, she's been Disneyfied, but still...) Many were passed down from a relative, but we've bought a couple. There are one or two I hate---the Rescuers have villians that are a hair too much, and after my older dd watches them, we have some bad behavior. I also don't like the way they portray orphans. So, those have gotten "lost." I'm not nuts about the way they portray women and girls in terms of body image.

I agree with the all things in moderation philosophy. We don't buy any of the merchandise, but I tend not to buy any licensed character stuff. We've gotten one or two Disney themed gifts and that's OK, I don't make a big deal about it.

We've not gone to Disney World, but I imagine some day we will go once or twice. Older dd has a friend who goes at least twice a year, so she asks to go all the time. We just don't take high priced vacations as a rule. If we are going to spend the money, I want both kids to be old enough to remember it.


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## mojomom (Mar 5, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by elisma_
*does anyone know anything about walt disney the man? i suggest reading the first three chapters of "fastfood nation" by eric schlosser.







*
I totally agree and was going to post this. Disney was not the sweet,meek guy sitting in a room drawing a mouse. he was a shrewd buisness man and ran his company as such a company. He did not support the cartoonist union and allowed and even encouraged his men to ruff up the picketers in the picket lines when they wanted disney productions to go union. He fired sympathizers, formed a phony union, brought in a Chicago crime figure to rig a settlementand posted an ad in the Variety accusing Union supporters of being communist. He apperaed as a witness for the House of Un-American Activities Commit5ee and strongly supported the Hollywood blacklist.He hired ex-nazi officers to work with him on tommorow land and his company produced a cartoon for the goverment called"The Atom Your Friend" for children, of course in this video they left out all the bad things the Atom is used for. He was very into consumerism and produced "t.v. shows" that were actually hour long infomercials about an upcoming movie or Disney World. Walt Disney was a salesman and perfected his art of selling on children,. Disney had every aspect of his company supported by company sponsors.

All this info honestly has no effect on wheteh I let my children watch Disney movies, my father worked for Disney World. I pretty much grew up there. But every one is posting about how great Walt was, becuase you read a biography on him. I bet if you did some research you might find that the publishing company that produced his biographies are owned or have stock into Disney Company.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by peacemama_
*Lots of them are pretty sexist, too, which is why I think I like Beauty and The Beast the best - even though there's some violence, the heroine is strong and independent and will not give anything just to get a man, like so many Disney heroines will!*
I disagree. Belle is a BAD role model for girls because she stays with the Beast even though he is abusive and mean to her because she thinks she can change him. I don't care how book smart she is, she still uses terrible judgement. And we wonder why so many women in our society stick with men who treat them like dirt? It's because of stories like these that tell little girls that if you love someone enough that they will always turn in to a prince in the end.

As for Mulan, I liked it at first and bought the dolls for my dd (who was not born yet then) because my dh is asian and I wanted dd to have dolls that resembled her. However, the more I watch it, the more I see a theme of cultural imperialism. In a nutshell, Mulan is very "Western" in thought and is trying to show those backward Chinese (very "Eastern" philosophies) how wrong they are about everything. There's a great essay on this somewhere on the web - let me go try to find it.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I didn't see my answer in the poll above. I don't judge a company persay, but I do screen anything my dd is allowed to see. Some Disney she's not allowed to see because it's not appropriate for her age. Others she is allowed to see, like Lion King and Lady and the Tramp. I feel that after a certain age children should be allowed to have full access to media (within reason of course-- no porn or excessive violence) and then we as parents need to *talk* to them about what we think about it. Like on commercials-- "oh look, that is so fake, that would never happen in real life" or movies, "Hitting's not nice, poor dog got hurt."

Abi watched Chicken Run at dad's house once and on a certain scene where one chicken slaps the other one she said, "Not nice hitting, time out, uh oh chicken got hurt" and I was so darned proud of her for reflecting our values at 28 mos. old! And while I may not have had her watch that at our house, we had already given her the tools to cope with what she saw and form an opinion about it.

Quote:

To me, if a story is based on an African tale (Lion King) or a Hawain tale (Lilo and Stitch) it makes sense to incorporate that culture into the story in some way. I don't know whether those movies are based on traditional folk tales from those countries, but as they are based within those countries, I think you should take the references to other religions within that context.
ITA with you Heartmama! I guess coming from a non christian household (and I have nothing at all against any faith as long as it's peace-loving) , I am glad to finally see cultural elements in some of the films, because that's part of that culture! I think kids need to know that there are other faiths out there in the world. And while we should not rely on the Disney company to teach that, it's nice that they try to include it.

I remember I had a babysitter once who would not let us play with anything that was not real. No smurfs, no re-enactments of fairy tales of any kind because most involved magical spells and curses, no unicorns, nothing. I felt it stifled my imagination. I mean, even in the Bible there are fantastic events that happen like Jesus turning those fish and bread into enough to feed thousands. And rising from the tomb. If that's not spiritualism, what is? It's that belief in the unseen that touches a part of many of us whether to strengthen religious convictions or just making a good story for our imagination.

I hope I don't offend anyone with my answers, but I did want to share my point of view. I am not comparing the magic of fairy tales with the wonder of religious happenings. In my own faith we have similar happenings that we also believe happened, while we can discount fairy tales as being just that-- tales.

Darshani


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## PaMomx3 (Apr 27, 2003)

There are some Disney movies we watch and some we don't. I view each one as it's own video, I don't necessarily allow -or not allow- it based on the fact that it's Disney. We went to Disney World in January and we loved it! Can't wait to go back...


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sagesgirl_
*Okay, I hate Disney, but not for a reason I have seen mentioned here. As a child, I was a huge fan of fairy tales & folklore. And everything Disney has touched, it has ruined. My biggest peeve is The Little Mermaid. Guess what, there's a moral to the story. Ariel does NOT get her guy. I could go on...But that's a separate rant.*
Sagesgirl, Little Mermaid was one of my fav Disney movies. But since I'm anti-TV, I'm not going to put our Disney DVD collection (DH







: buys DVDs) in front of my 3 yr old any time soon.

I'm really enjoying this thread... so please rant on if you wish, because I'm learning something new.

Read Endangered Minds: Why Children Don't Think and What we Can Do About it to learn why TV is bad for the developing brain.

Disney heroines were discussed in another thread and the point was made (which never occurred to me







) that they are WEAK! So true! (OK Mulan may be the only exception.) It's a good reason why one should not introduce them to young children.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Elismama_
*Recently some folks with older children passed on a bunch of audiotapes, I put in Disney's version of pinnochio and was completely annoyed with how they took an excellent story and dumbed it down. They have done the same with Pooh- trying to make the books "accessible" to young children, but loosing the beautiful prose that makes them so wonderful. There are so many excellent books out there, why in the world should my son waste his time on watered down versions of good stories.

Kids are open to everything, and I think much of their aesthetic sense is developed so young in life, I try to provide Eli with beautiful images, music, and stories, and opportunities to create so that his senses are enriched, not diminished. I can't help but feel that Disney diminishes.*
ITA! I love children's books, and illustrations are important to me... I cannot STAND the Disney story books because (and I never thought I would say this) the art is SO bad. Especially if it's out of context... especially if it's the new art.

Some aspects of Disney movies/art I like and some I don't.

Quote:

_Originally posted by zinemama_
*But my main objection is aesthetic. I grew up with kid's books illustrated by great artists like Trina Schart Hyman and Tasha Tudor. Also my mom's old color fairy books (The Blue Fairy Book, etc.) with those wonderful black and white drawings by HJ Ford.*
Ooooooo - I gotta look those books up.
















Disneyland - we'll probably go. My son would enjoy it. We're going to a Carnival today (he loves it!!!!) but the major con for me is the smell of uke diesel in the air. Disneyland does not smell of diesel and that gives it my Gold Seal of Approval. :LOL

Side note - I'm trying to wean my 3 yr old... as a *desperate distraction*, "HEY let's watch the Dragon on Shrek!" So we watch a few minutes of it and then we talk about it. The rest of the week, he's pretending to breathe fire.







Anyway, FYI Shrek makes a lot of fun of Disneyland in the movie. It's funny.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Mulan is based on a real Chinese heroine, Hua Mu Lan. It's not a story Disney created. While obviously the Disney version is, well, the Disney version, the fundamentals of the tale are the same. http://www.distinguishedwomen.com/bi.../huamulan.html

Chicken Run is from Nick Park, the same genius who gave us Wallace and Gromit, my absolute favorite videos. His company is Aardman Animations, not Disney.


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## khrisday (Mar 18, 2002)

I also have a problem with the way that Disney has twisted the classic faerie tales and fables that they have adapted. Faerie tales have moral messages, and most of them are lost in the Disney versions.

Also, besides the heroines being weak, until recent years they were physical stereotypes as well. Until Belle, none of the heroines even had *gasp* brown hair or eyes (except fot Snow White- who seemed to be all of 15 yrs old). In recent years, the cultural diversity of their female characters has broadened quite a bit. (what with Jasmine, Pocohantas, and Mulan) But I don't think it can really make up for so many years of blonde haired, blue eyed, pale skinned, svelt beauties.


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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

For me
movies=okay
t-shirts, backpacks, toys, hairbows, shoes, bubble-gum, etc. = not okay

All that commercialism just kind of gets my back up.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I say moderation and critical thinking skills are important (as always). I loved Disney movies when I was little, but at that point they could be seen only when they came around to movie theaters every 7 years, so they were special treats. IMO, owning a video and watching the same movie again and again takes the specialness away and stifles imagination--that's certainly what I've observed in the kids I know who watch a lot of Disney!

I've been to Disneyworld twice, age 7 and 17. The first time, it was an incredibly fun, amazing experience. The second time, it was still like that to a great extent, but I felt resentful of the heavy-handed engineering of my experience; it's kind of like being kidnapped to an underground room where you can't tell what time it is, and being forced to watch propaganda (which was the format of a church youth retreat two of my friends had attended just before my trip







) except that you've paid for it--and the price is, to my frugal sensibilities, obscene. That, and thinking about the waste of resources and the chemicals (Disney BRAGS that there are no insects in the COUNTY they own!!) and the air pollution from the NIGHTLY fireworks and on and on, diminished my enjoyment. I think I'd be willing to go when I have a kid around 7 years old (enough innocence to enjoy it and enough stamina to make it worth the money) but I think it's the sort of family vacation to be done once in a childhood, not every year.

Nobody's mentioned Disney comic books. The new ones they were putting out in my childhood were drivel, and I don't know if they even make new ones now, but in the late 1980s Gladstone Comics reissued comics from the 1930s and 1940s, including Mickey Mouse's adventures that ran in serial as newspaper comics. These are great stories, excellent art, and exciting international adventures (albeit with some fictionalizing--countries have names like Toolong Sarong and Brutopia







) and you have to READ them instead of passively watching. What my family did w/them was to cluster around and do a dramatic reading, each person taking a few parts and doing different accents. Great fun!


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## Mommasgirls (Nov 5, 2002)

Okay so my girls love DIsney movies and we probably own all of them. However I limit the movies to one per girl a week to be wathced once. That rule will sometimes get broken due to miserable weather. We always talk about the movies as they are on and talk about other choices the characters could have made. My 5yoDD is now writing alternate endings to Snow White and Cinderella because as she told me the girls can take care of themselves


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I let my 3 month old ds wear the Winnie-the-Pooh clothes my folks got for him. But I told them not to buy any more. I figure, my child is so sweet and cute, I don't want him giving free advertising to Disney!

When he's older I'm not sure what I'll do about the movies. They do have a lot of racial stereotyping! I loved the movie Dumbo when I was a child, now I look at the crows and Oy! And what about Aladdin, the Little Mermaid--actually, many of them are like that. Maybe there are some exceptions, we'll have to take it case by case.

Winnie the Pooh was one of my favorite books growing up and it bugs me that the Disney version is the version that all the children see first. I just don't like that. Mr. Shephard's drawings are so much more beautiful and Milne's stories so much more charming.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

We have most the Disney videos, we have disney games, and toys and my dad bought us annual passes to Disney this year. WOOHOO. We are fixing to take our second trip in three weeks. And we are EXCITED!









My husband was never allowed anything Disney, never saw a Disney movie, and when we had children he has loved watching the old movies and the new ones too. His first trip to Disney was a few years ago and he fell in love.

So you will not see me saying anything is wrong with Disney. As for materialism. I see a lot of "hip" sites feared towards selling AP moms or granola moms all kinds of stuff, stuff we dont really need but maybe want. I read cloth diapering boards all over the net and some of those moms are over the edge in buying cutsie diapers and the like only to wear a few times. Disney offers good as well as the bad, but I believe the good outweighs the bad and it sure is a lot better than other stuff I have seen out in the world.


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## Baudelaire (Aug 2, 2002)

HATE Disney. As someone with a love of good folklore and a belief that the gritty fairy tales with NO SINGING ANIMALS perform valuable psychological work a child needs in order to face reality in a "safe" way, I despise -- absolutely *despise* that f%^%^g mouse.









We have two Disney movies - Toy Story 2 and Fantasia. I don't object to Fantasia because of the classical music AND because it's the least commercial of all the Disney movies. However, I completely agree that they have taken the Pooh books and turned them into garbage. I would argue that they did the same with "Cinderella." What's that s&*t about having the mice make a dress for her? When someone tampers with the fairy tale, it changes the nature of the tale and affects the psychological work it can do -- like a cancer, it attaches itself onto its host story and deforms it.

I think it's no mistake that the animators who worked for Disney Studios referred to their place of employment as "Mouseschwitz."


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

And now I think it is, too.

And I had exposure to it. Wasn't "sheltered". Thought as far as cartoons went, Warner Bros was waaaaaay better. More clever. Didn't talk down to me. Not so sickly sweet.

Won't buy any, but if someone gives our boy something Disney, I won't make him throw it out.

There is just so much better stuff out there. More imaginative. Less marketed.

Edited to add: I really, really like Bruder Grimm. I don't think it is too brutal for children. I liked 'brutal' when I was little. I was a condescending little brat to adults who tried to sugarcoat everything. I think that many (note I did not say all) kids like the old fashioned fairy tales because they have justice. It isn't kind justice. But, there is a comeuppance at the end. Andrew Lang's books, the Wonder Clock by Howard Pyle, Twice-Told Tales by Nathaniel Hawthorne, Arthur Rackham's Fairy Tales, etc. etc.


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

I have a few select disney movies including the original Parent Trap, Sword in the Stone, Toy Story 1 & 2, and Alladin. But most of their movies portray messages I don't want my children getting. Don't even get my husband started on Lion King, he hates that he is betrayed by his own family, he thinks that is a horrible message to send kids. I also think the violence in that movie is very scary. I hated Wizard of Oz as a kid, I remember seeing it only once and being scared to death. I also refuse to buy into the whole princess thing when I have a daughter. At least Jasmine in Alladin isn't "looking" for a man, and in fact turns down all the phony, materialistic, fake suitors that show up. I have to say one of my favorite kid's movies is Shrek because it makes fun of all the things I don't like about Disney movies. I think it is an awesome movie. We have only watched it once or twice with our 20 month old son, and the other day he found the DVD case and came out of the room going "want Shrek." He is also a Simpson's fanantic too but that is another thread.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I have to say I like OnTheFence's analogy -- it isn't only Disney who mass markets & puts their logos & on all sorts of *crap* (and yes, it usually is crap!).

I say "All things in moderation -- including moderation!" We will probably accumulate some Disney stuff, although I'd rather our offspring find a cheaper favorite character! I don't see it as any different than the teddy bears I collected as a child (okay..still do







). I spent lotsa hours on ebay to put together my son's nursery: Curious George... and bought lotsa Raggedy Ann & Andy for the next kid -- whenever that one comes along







.

I think you can find good or bad symbolism in any story if you look hard enough. I remember watching Dumbo, & I didn't come away with any racist views. And I think my mom had the right idea -- as long as it wasn't terrible or age in-appropriate, we were able to watch it, but she always seemed to be around with a well placed comment ... at the end of Grease (one of my all time fav's!







) she commented..."So, she had to become trashy and give up her morals for the man? Hmmmm." That was enough to make us realize it, but we got to use our own minds to decide if we wanted to watch it again -- and if we did, we did so realizing it was a poor choice...but jeez I love the songs _"grease lightning, go grease lightning"_

Okay, that movie is just BAD!







that's for after the lil ones are in bed!


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## elisma (Apr 21, 2003)

to mojomom
you are completely correct with your info.May I also add that one of the ex-nazi officers used to do human experiments on prisoners and then do autopsy's on them.
During the union dispute he told his employees that a union would not help them a good hard days work would.
About Mulan, that character is the only possitive female (with an AA cup bra)that Disney movies have ever portrayed.

A friend recently said to me "Every dollar you spend is a vote for what you believe in" now i take an extra second to think about what i am about to buy and where that $ is going to go. It is very difficult for "the little guy" to get anywhere nowadays so my family, being the little guy, we do our best to support these smaller businesses that have children in mind, (as people, not numbers).

That is my rant thanx for enduring


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## madrone (Jun 25, 2002)

I think the Disney Corporation is evil and I will never give them a penny of my money!

Having said that, I do check out Homeward Bound 2 sometimes from the library for my DS. He loves when the 2 dogs and the cat are at the airport. Luckily, we don't have to worry about the television for DS to get hooked on other things.


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## dentente (Aug 14, 2002)

Disney is mostly bad with some good bits. I have always laughed at the ridiculous quality of the female characters in the films. They really all do look alike regardless of ethnicity, which is sad and funny. I don't generally watch the films but they trickle into the house. My mother buys them for us. We don't really watch them. There have been a few natable exceptions. Lilo and Stich was about a non-white, non-traditional and somewhat dysfunctional family and I loved that. Toy Story (1 and 2) were loads of fun and had a "gee-whiz" factor to them. The stories were lively and did not avoid uglier human emotions. There are still loads of stereotypes in most Disney products. However, my 2 y.o. can't live without The Wiggles. Every morning. Without fail. She sings and dances her heart out and has a good nap afterward. That's really her only tv show that she watches and requests daily and that's on Playhouse Disney. A channel rife with irritating shows.

I have not been to DisneyLand since I was 12 years old and am probably going to take both my dd and my stepson at some point. They have both been exposed to so little Disney yet both seem to want to convince me of the themepark's virtues. I remember my visit as 12 and how the whole thing seemed like an elaborate cash-extraction machine. I'm sure it's the same now but with bigger things to stare at slack-jawed. It's just not me. Disney attempts to hit a moral note in it's stories but never really seems to get me where it counts. I never feel moved by any of their attempts to play my heartstrings ala Steven Spielberg.

I too have been truly impressed by Disney's english language versions of Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away and Princess Mononoki. These are absolute masterpieces. Finding Nemo looks like it might be pretty good bet too.

Disney Product? Disappointing overall but with pockets of genius.

Denny


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I'm looking at our movie collection...let's see...Disney...we have Beauty and the Beast, Robin Hood, Mulan, Lilo and Stitch, and Monsters Inc. I love all of those movies. We don't really aquire movies that we don't enjoy; gifts that we don't like get donated.

There are a lot of Disney movies we wouldn't let the kids watch. Pocahontas, for example. I cannot imagine how they could have made that story less true. (Well, actually, I can and that is scary, but it was terribly far from reality.)

We have no disney merchandise here. Wait, we have a Pooh doll. That's about all. (What's a happy meal toy? - Don't tell my kids!)

We do watch Playhouse Disney occassionally. We really like Rollie Pollie Ollie and Bear in the Big Blue House. Sometimes when we need a break or one of the kids is sick we'll watch those.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

I havenot read this thread all of the way through, but...

When I worked at the public library in Burbank (1/2 mile from Disney studios), in the Children's section there were books by a former employee of Disney, Bill Peet, who did the illustrations for Sleeping Beauty and Peter Pan. He quit in the mid 1960's because he could not stand working for the big man.


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

Disney is a business, a media giant. I cannot see how having a business, a profit driven, cash-centered, competitive enterprize insinuating its cultural agenda, whatever it is (and I don't think its good at all), into the minds of a generation of young people as anything but horrific.

Millions of children plugged into media supplied by fewer and fewer companies. Feels a little like The Matrix to me.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mother_sunshine_
*I have always had a problem with how the female is portrayed in most of the movies (ie: Snow White) and often talked w/dd about the problem. The women/girls seem to be able to wipe away their worries with a song (and man!) and that is what mainly bothered me I guess.*
I'm quoting mother-sunshine but this is a reply to all who think Disney is the ultimate evil and other nonsense.

You have right to your opinions but your children also have right to theirs! They enjoy Disney movies for reasons that are not yours. Stop forbiding your children from watching cartoons, just share the views that worry you with them. Talking about it is a good idea. Like "girls don't actually have to be like that", etc. That will probably turn into a fun conversation.


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## Mattsmom (Mar 22, 2002)

Its kinda hard to despise Disney when we live 10 minutes from Disneyland and go once a week. My kids love Disney and Disneyland! I grew up with Disney and their products and have not been traumatized so we'll keep going until my kids don't like it anymore!

T


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Since I started this thread in January of 2002, there have been some changes in my home.

A few years ago when my daughter was a toddler I blindly bought into the Disney commercialism and bought too many videotapes that I would play on a daily basis as a means of babysitting while I worked on the computer. Soon after that was when I started noticing that dd's play had changed from creative and original to constant role-playing of disney-characters (which lead into the inundation of Barbie too of course). At first it was kind-of cute but the more I thought about it, and the more she focused on it, the more it bothered me. Disney was forming my child with my complete consent.
















Since then I have realized that Disney doesn't only portray many of the female characters as helpless and inferior, they are TEACHING little girls and boys how to act (and buy) in our society. This makes me sick. And it just emphasizes what cumulus said.

That said, I still have all the videotapes because I am not comfortable taking them away from her without her consent, but I let my daughter (now 6) choose when she wants to watch them which is maybe once every 2-3 weeks, and it's usually a non-Disney recording of Beetlejuice. TV is now limited to 1 hour a day (and has been for the past year). She has also since "outgrown" Barbie. Her play has changed dramatically for the better and she is once again her creative unique self.

I agree in part with Leonor that parents should discuss what they are watching and that children are entitled to their own opinions but when their opinions are so heavily influenced by what they are watching, is it really THEIR OWN opinions or is it successful commercialism and, in a sense, brainwashing?


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

Disney has been progressive in giving health benefits to "household" partners.

They pay the people who work at their theme parks deploreable wages. Some workers have been known to live on welfare out of their cars, working at minimum wage for years, no benefits, and sweltering in those costumes in the middle of summer.

As a teacher in a private school, I cannot show a Disney video because the lawyers will be on my case for - what? I do not know.

Alittle







T

My Ds#2's name is "ARIEL" after Ariel Sharon of Israel. The name means "lion of G-d", a very masculine name, and is used in Hebrew poetry as a synonym for the Eternal City of Jerusalem.

He is 18 now; when he was in elementary school, the "Little Mermaid" was released, and he was teased mercilessly. He insisted on being called "Ari", more masculine in the minds of his classmates.

Later, when he went into competitve wrestling, he liked using "ARIEL", because his competitors initially thought they would be wrestling a girl, not my big muscular DS! It gave him a psychological advantage over any competition he would encounter.

I never thought it was a good idea to give my son an androgynous name, but I did it three times.

What a hypocrit I am!


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

As a teacher in a private school, I cannot show a Disney video because the lawyers will be on my case for - what? I do not know.








T

I would guess because you haven't payed for performance rights to the video? I'm an academic librarian so we face this all the time (not with Disney so much I hope







) Most videos don't come with performance rights unless you pay extra for them. This is not widely understood by teachers or by professors. Now, obviously there are no copyright police who are sticking their noses into classrooms all over the place, but if the owner of the performance rights of any video gets wind of what you are doing, it's not that unusual for them to mention legal action.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

Dear EF mom:

I understood that, but I do not charge for the "performances", and who really cares what a small religious school is showing in the third grade?

I just wanted to compare "Beauty and the Beast" versions Disney -vs- Jan Brett. Sometimes there are students in the class who have parents who work at Disney.

Bill Peet in his autobiography made fun of old Walt by saying that he suspected that Disney studios wanted to ultimately do all of Grimm fairy tales and then own the rights to all of them. Since Disney,Inc. is such a prevailing influence in our culture, Disney could ultimately own all of the rights to Grimm fairy tales, Hans Christian Anderson and Washington Irving stories. No one would be able to read or present a story without paying a fee to Disney, Inc.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I am sorry but it is patently false that Disney pays minimum wage. They have a number of very aggressive unions and have good contracts with all of them. Most of those contracts do allow for seasonal/part time employess to work at the parks without joining the union (but they do pay dues to the union














during which time they must be paid the same wage that the union has negotiated for it's members. No where near minimum wage. They do not acrue benefits during this time. The performers in "character costumes", the heavy ones with big heads, ie, Mickey, Goofy, etc... are in costume and out in the park less than 30 minutes of each hour. Yes, it is a hard, demanding job but everyone I have met who did it competed like crazy to get it and loves to do it.

It is also impossible for Disney to 'get the rights' to these older stories in the way described here. All they can ever own are the rights to their own productions of those stories.


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## AutumnWind (Apr 16, 2002)

This subject always gets quite a lot of responses on MDC. I see there's over 100 responses to this thread already.

And quite a diverse group of responses, which doesn't surprise me in the least. We all have different opinions about Disney, even though we all practice AP. Just goes to show you - there's not a strict, pigeon-holed definition of an AP family. Not at all.

My family and I just returned from Walt Disney World. We were there for 5 days, and had a wonderful time. I nursed all over the parks, we ate reasonably healthy, we co-slept and we practiced gentle discipline, as always.

My ds has a variety of influences in his life, from classical music, to art, to old fashioned fairy tales, to wooden toys, modern/plastic toys, a multicultural family, active LLL involvement (where he plays with lots of other AP toddlers), grandparents, great-grandparents, and Disney movies. Just to name a few.


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## thejmeister (May 5, 2003)

Honestly, I am not a huge fan of any type of commercialism. However, I wouldn't be horribly upset if Nicholas watched The Lion King or something one day. I think that adults tend to read more into the movies than children do. We forget that we have had more experiences that color our perception of things than they have.

Gotta go, crying baby!


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

Perhaps a Disney movie or two in the big picture has little effect on a given child but Disney's influence extends far beyond the movies they may or may not see. Disney is a media giant. It sells through many media in a big way. It owns a book company, has TV shows, amusement parks, stores, cable interests, music interests. All that and more I'd guess.

Even if a given child was sheltered from all of Disney's many media, it still has a powerful influence. Peers. Classmates and friends are being influenced and in turn can influence children with the smallest exposure to Disney.

I'd recommend a viewing of "The Merchants of Cool." A chilling PBS documentary on how the media controls, even owns, teen culture. You can read it or view the program at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/. A quote from the show: "Today five enormous companies are responsible for selling nearly all of youth culture. These are the true merchants of cool: Rupert Murdoch's Newscorp, Disney, Viacom, Universal Vivendi, and AOL/Time Warner.....They look at the teen market as part of this massive empire that they're colonizing. You should look at it like the British empire or the French empire in the 19th century. Teens are like Africa. You know, that's this range that they're going to take over, and their weaponry are films, music, books, CDs, Internet access, clothing, amusement parks, sports teams. That's all this weaponry they have to make money off of this market."

"And as parents and the home lose some of their hold on the imagination, senses and emotions, children naturally turn elsewhere for spiritual and psychic sustenance. The find it in the media and its indomitable infantry, the peer group."
~ Kay S Hymowitz, Ready or Not


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Thanks for posting Cumulus. I'd love to see that Frontline show someday.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I just got back from Walt Disney World and we had a BLAST. Yep thats me, indoctrinating my kids with all things Disney.







LOL

I just want to say that this is my second time there this year and I am EB my son. I breastfed everywhere. I only offended two people who I frankly thought their smoking in a non-smoking area near children was far worse than a baby nursing in the middle of Adventureland. I always run into AP mommas at the park who are instantly welcoming and understanding when I am nursing on Pirates or Snow White.

I have lots of happy memories with my children at Disney, and my son with behavioral problems Always shines there. For what its worth, you can eat well, get lots of exercise, and have a wonderful time at the World and do it without getting wrapped up in all the commercialism.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

My now 7 y/o can not watch certain Disney movies due to the violent content as in "The Lion King" and many of the "princess" movies. She does enjoy "The Aristocats", and I wish they made more like that. Anyway, we don't buy too many Disney toys or other merchandise. I know my children and it is my job to protect them, even from Disney sometimes!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Is when I went to my local LLL and felt judged because my children wore disney clothing. The women there were most definately coming from the "can't stand Disney" viewpoint. My children wear hand me down's from cousins and there is a lot of Disney mixed into their wardrobe. The LLL leader actually brought it to my attention and asked me about it. It made me feel bad, and I didn't feel welcome there. My kids dress themselves, so sometimes we will go to a playgroup and they will wear Disney stuff.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bestbirths_
*The LLL leader actually brought it to my attention and asked me about it. It made me feel bad, and I didn't feel welcome there. My kids dress themselves, so sometimes we will go to a playgroup and they will wear Disney stuff.*








That's really outrageous. I am enjoying this thread (and all viewpoints). And I basically agree with Stonehedge.









Yeah, I'll probably go to Disneyland with my child at some point and enjoy it, but I will choose (and limit) Disney media exposure. (A movie once in a very blue moon I can live with. Repeated showings... how is that beneficial?)

The thing that I'm personally very wary of is being a walking billboard for ANY major corporation. I'm not going to PAY THEM money to advertise for THEM, KWIM? So I don't go out of my way to buy stuff. (I love Old Navy, and I avoid buying T-shirts with their name on it. If they want me or my children to wear it, they can give it to me for free, thank you very much.)

But so what if the whole wardrobe is Disney.







: Some kids and parents think it's cute. (I personally don't.) That's fine. It's their life/money. I was in the mall a few weeks ago and they had a great deal (bathsuit for girls plus free robe). The bathing suit was a little too glittery for my taste (but not if I had a DD for sure) and if I would have loved to purchase it for someone!

I have neighbors with twin girls (age 4) who are into Disney/heroine fairytales. We see them at the park sometimes. I would never avoid them (or pass judgement) because of it. Sheesh.

Bestbirths, every LLL chapter is different. And nobody at my chapter(s) would pass judgement on you for that.








That sounds "out there" to me. I'm sorry you had that experience.


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## AutumnWind (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bestbirths_
*Is when I went to my local LLL and felt judged because my children wore disney clothing. The women there were most definately coming from the "can't stand Disney" viewpoint. My children wear hand me down's from cousins and there is a lot of Disney mixed into their wardrobe. The LLL leader actually brought it to my attention and asked me about it. It made me feel bad, and I didn't feel welcome there.*
Bestbirths - I know whatcha mean. Luckily, I don't think the LLL leader we have right now would do that. But, I HAVE known & heard of LLL leaders like that.

It burns me. Why make ANYONE feel uncomfortable about coming to LLL for support???????? I don't think it's in the LLL philosophy to only welcome people who are anti-corporate. In fact, I think if it had been reported, the leader you spoke of might've been chided for that.

I guess I'm a little scrappy with this sort of thing. I could see myself getting into an argument with a LLL leader who would actually go there with me if my breastfeeding TODDLER, who cosleeps, uses the sling, and is an AP kid, was wearing a (gasp!) Disney shirt







to a LLL meeting - where I came to get SUPPORT FOR BREASTFEEDING!!!!!!!! Yep, that would be a problem. Sorry, it just blows my mind that your LLL leader actually brought it to your attention & ASKED you about it.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I really did need the support, I was tandem nursing a toddler and a newborn. We do all of the AP (I checked everything on the survey). I even had PPD and a car accident when dd was seven weeks old. I couldn't pick her up, let alone the sling was out of the question. She could just be in my lap, and that was it. It was devistating. I had to take a crash course in bonding without the sling, and with PPD, it was a challenge. What I didn't need was grief about Disney. I hope the leaders out there who read this thread will go easy on people who may not do everything "the perfect way" in their eyes. I felt like I would have had to go through my house and get rid of all my Disney stuff to fit in there. I think she did mention that they all had done that. My MOM and dh through a fit over it. We had a family meeting about the issue where they were like "NO Way are we getting rid of our Disney stuff just to fit in". If I was non corporate, like you said, in my heart, that would be a reason to change, but not to fit in to a group.








T








It just didn't end there, I saw a disturbing trend in what they called AP where it became all about being non corporate, having no plastic toys, being extremely health and safety aware to the extreme, etc.... It was like AP was more about what you wore and what you did and didn't do rather than building relationships, which is what it means to us.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I am so sorry you had such a sad experience with your local LLL group. I just had to comment again because I am a LLL leader and can't IMAGINE treating anyone the wat you were treated. LLL is a single purpose group: breastfeeding. Of course moms come with all kinds of other questions and needs, we always tell moms they will meet lots of mothers with differing ideas and they are free to discuss anything after the meeting. Moms get to know which of us don't vaccinate, who does what, but I would never allow another leader or group mom to judge another mother for what they wear. I wonder what that is teaching their children?







: My sister gives my dd hand me downs also and she loves those Pooh pj's and Ariel t- shirt. We need to support eachother, especially because the numbers of nursing moms is relatively small. I hate to hear stories like this. Is there another group near you that you might attend? LLL is a wonderful support to nursing moms and embraces all moms, not just a paicular kind of mother.


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## telekinetic pyro (Apr 19, 2002)

My dh has a bunch of the disney movies. We are in the process of reaquireing them on DVD. Currently, we have toy story 1 and 2 and Bugs Life and Monster's Inc. I'm holding my breath and wringing my hands waiting for Lion King to be released on DVD (according to the lady at the Disney Sotre, it is supposed to be in October) And we are quite anxiously awaiting Nemo's release on DVD , since ds won't sit still in a theater. However, he loves his Nemo shirt (his yishy) and would were it everyday if I would let him. Fortunately, he loves his Sully shirt almost as much so he lets me rotate them out. I'm a huge Disney fan but ds isn't all that interested in the movies. He'll watch bits and pieces of Monster, Inc. but that is about it. I can't wait to take him to Disney World and Land, but that is a few years off. Right now he is scared to death of costumed characters (flipped out at the Easter Bunny) so I don't want to add to that trauma by taking him to Disney. Plus money is going to be an issue for at least a few years. So, I've bought into the consumerism and I'm pretty well ok with that.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

which meets once a week that we have been going to, and there are other LLL groups farther away from me that I think I'll check out too. Maybe we can find a "Disney friendly" group, LOL!


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## AutumnWind (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bestbirths_
*It just didn't end there, I saw a disturbing trend in what they called AP where it became all about being non corporate, having no plastic toys, being extremely health and safety aware to the extreme, etc.... It was like AP was more about what you wore and what you did and didn't do rather than building relationships, which is what it means to us.*

Yeah, I know what you mean. I felt that way once when I arrived at a LLL meeting with my ds - (who was 10 months at the time, breastfeeding wonderfully, cosleeping, etc, etc, didn't start solids till after 6 months, etc, didn't use rice cereal - used whole foods like banana, etc, etc) - who just so happened to be carrying a baby bottle of spring water, because it HELPED HIM NOT TO SCREAM IN THE CARSEAT, since I CAN'T NURSE WHILE I'M DRIVING, AND I HAD A SCREAMING-IN-THE-CAR-TYPE BABY at the time (and he was 10 MONTHS, so it wasn't risking the nursing relationship. he's 24 months now and still nurses just fine). I got dirty looks from SEVERAL PEOPLE when they saw the baby bottle of SPRING WATER..........And, get this: the LLL leader actually came over at the end of the meeting and told me I shouldn't use the bottle for the spring water!!!!! She said I should use a tippy cup (which wouldn't of helped cause he needed to SUCK to calm himself down), cause bottles are terrible. And during the meeting, after I had come in, she had gone on about how she sees parents in the store with babies prop-ed up with a bottle & it makes her so sad. And she was looking at my ds & his bottle of spring water.

Anyway, I'm very active in LLL now. We have a different leader who is very nurturing & great. I'm so glad I stuck with LLL even with those sorts of occurances, because it was so worth it.

Anyway, I know I'm rambling. But yes, LLL, and AP, Mothering Magazine, and MDC are not about how natural you are, or how anti-corporate you are - they're about women SUPPORTING women, and families supporting families. And bonding with your children in a loving way. Not about judging other people.

Thank goodness!!!


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Well-said!!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

:bf


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## telekinetic pyro (Apr 19, 2002)

I wish everyone had your attitude on raising children. Unfortunately, I have been told that I'm a terrible mother for working while my child is young. And for supplementing with formula (which never hurt our nursing at all) while he was in daycare. And for having a scheduled c-section. Not to mention my love for Disney and plastic beepy toys. Or my non-vegetarian diet. That is why I call myself "mostly creamy", as in I'm not super granola, I'm not even really slightly crunchy. However I do practice ap in that I breastfeed and co-sleep and I respect my child and try my best to meet all of his needs all of the time (I say try because there are some things he thinks are needs that really aren't. Such as, he doesn't NEED to play with the stove, he just wants to LOL)


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## Katie65 (May 31, 2003)

I have no problem with Disney. I own pretty much every disney movie..I great up in Anaheim and spent ALOT of time at Disneyland and they are all very fond memories.

I grew up watchng the princess movies..and they didn't affect my self confidence or body image..I guess I'm lucky.

I think its more the parental influence than the movies

Anyway..I let Cassidy watch the movies..shes addicted to Monsters Inc right now and watches it almost every night while winding down for bedtime...I admit theres almost no learning material in it..but I don't see the harm in an hour or so a night...


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

*


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I'm kinda clueless here & haven't seen Aladdin or The Little Mermaid in a long time; how are these movies showing stereotypes?


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Little Mermaid: Are you talking about Sebastian, the Jamaican Crab? Or the Over-the-top French Cook (who was going to cook Sebastian?) Personally, I never considered those offensive. But I'm neither French nor Jamaican.

I don't remember Alladin much. But I think I remember one character that Alladin bumps into (a bum ?) who was the dirtiest man alive... and that actually made me wonder because it did seem racist at the time. I recall being shocked. Truthfully, I don't remember which character it was.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

*


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

*


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

"There was and they made some changes. I believe the lyrics that I just quoted were what resulted AFTER the outcry. No disney in my house."

Can't resist.

Bwaahahahahahah!

Why are we asking ok or not ok?

Why not : Why IS it "ok"?








(cue the manaical, sarcastic laughter)

Sorry. I've just always thought Disney isn't good enough to spend time on. Now I think I actively hate it.







:


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## siddie (Jan 15, 2003)

We went to see Finding Nemo the other night and it scared my 3 and a half year old. IN the first 30 min or so, the mom died, the child got lost/kidnapped the first day of school after his dad was reluctant to send him, they showed a scary dentist visit with a screaming patient - we left. I think several of the jokes were more geared to parents. Two movies we enjoy are Fern Gully which is about conservation and the rain forest and The original Santa Claus movie with Tim Allen. I think Disney is really a marketing money-making giant and we should all be wary...


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

My option wasn't in the poll. Basically, I don't mind the movies so much, and would prolly let my kids watch them... but I wouldn't buy any of the merchandise... I want to keep that kind of stuff out of the house.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Funny you should ask. I just booked our Disneyland vacation today.









Edited to add: DH hates disney movies. He feels they harp on childhood fears of parental death in the extreme (if this has already been covered in these 7 pages, I apologize).
Mostly my 4yo son is a Bob the Builder and Dora the Explorer fan. The one disney movie he likes is Dinosaur, although he did like the Peter Pan ones when he was very little.

Me - I LOVE amusement parks.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Posting now because Id never seen this thread before







We watch Disney/own products without issue.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

I just can't picture my almost-4 year old sitting in front of a movie for 2 hours, following the plot and romantic sub-plots and really understanding what's going on. It seems like a colossal waste of time, quite honestly. When he's older, I would be fine with him watching something like that. But I just can't wrap my head around a preschooler doing this.

I strive to monitor what they watch and to limit TV watching together and Disney doesn't fit in with that. Heck, I don't even put Sesame on, because I think it's too fast-moving. :LOL I don't let them watch shows with violence yet (hello Disney), because I hate to see little kids acting this stuff out. Miffy and Mr. Rogers is more at our speed. And they're not allowed to see commercials. Well, Disney is one giant commercial. I don't need to be bugged mercilessly for some crappy plastic toy that is inspired by a Disney movie. That stuff's everywhere! It's not like we're in public and ds1 shouts, "Look!!!! There's a Mr. Rogers action figure! Please? please? please? A Reading Rainbow shirt!!! Mama!!"

Disney just doesn't have any relevance or use in our lives right now. I grew up with Disney, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't watching it at 4. It was a rare treat when I was older. And they didn't sell countless stuff related to it, unless you were at DisneyWorld/land itself.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Well...like it or not, Disney is kinda hard to avoid. I've taken the kids to WDW (which is easy to avoid. I don't believe in the 'every kid needs to go to Disney' stuff. Blech. take your kid to a museum, for gosh sakes. Plus, we like it better when it's not crowded








) , we've seen quite a few movies. We're not 'fans', we don't buy a lot of plastic toys, don't eat at fast food places, so my children don't own any of those little toys etc, and I can't deal with any sort of character themed sheets etc. But I love to watch Finding Nemo so much that my kids groan. On the weekend when dh and I fold laundry, I put it in as one of my selections. I am ashamed to say how many times I've seen it. That "Probably A-MERI-can" line kills me every time. LOL

As for made in China- that's not good. But if you walk through Target and flip over 99.9% of the items there, it will say 'made in China". From clothing to playdough, to nearly all the housewares, including those pretty Pottery Barn knock-off quilts. All Made In China. (I have a friend who works for PB, btw, and the same companies that supply Target, supplies Pottery Barn. Same manufacturers, different patterns). This is a NAFTA disgrace and everyone is an accomplice in this.

So we need to be careful about being self-congratulatory. One might not own Disney toys, but chances are, if you've stepped foot into Target or Pier One, or ordered from Pottery Barn etc etc etc, you own something Made In China. You'd be amazed. Check your sheets, your pillows, your towels, your blender, your dishes, your silverware, your candles and candle holders blah blah blah.

Which is not to say Disney sheets are not the most butt-ugly things on the planet.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I watched a Veggie tales where they were saved from a fire in a chocolate bunny factory by the light of Jesus.

Heartmama, you made my day with that! I have peripherally heard of Veggie Tales from friends, but the above sounds SO humorous (to me) that maybe I'll have to rent one!









Anyway...

I like some Disney animated features. Yes, a lot of the old ones were racist/sexist, but my goodness, I wonder what the rest of the films in the 40s were like? :/ I mean, NO film company that has been around more than 50 years is not guilty of putting out propagandist, sexist, racist swill at some point. I would say that was true even as recently as the 80s and early 90s. It seems that most children's programming/entertainment, from PBS to Nickelodeon is highly commericalized and marketed now. Just sayin'.

I love animation in general, but my taste runs more to manga and original Japanese animation (which has also been bought out by Disney when it's brought over here in many cases, but at least you can watch it subtitled and NOT with the inane American voice "talent"). So I prefer things like Spirited Away (NOT for young children) or My Neighbor Totoro or adult stories like Ghost in the Shell to Disney animation.

I liked a lot of the Disney animation of the 80s/early 90s, but that was primarily for the songwriting/score team of Ashman and Menken. I still love those soundtracks. I was kind of relieved with Disney did deals with Pixar, because then they weren't trying for musicals with crappy songs anymore once one of my favorite duo died.









I really liked The Incredibles. That's another one that's NOT for young kids, for obvious reasons, but I acutally thought that there were some cool messages in there, plus it was funny and the mother didn't have to bite it.

And I agree, if I'm going to shell out $$ to go to an amusement park, it'll be to DL or DW, not some crappy Six Flags place.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyPants*
Edited to add: DH hates disney movies. He feels they harp on childhood fears of parental death in the extreme . . . The one disney movie he likes is Dinosaur, although he did like the Peter Pan ones when he was very little.

This has struck me also. I did indeed lose a parent when I was a child, so I wasn't sure if maybe I was being sensitive to this.

Can you tell me a little bit about "Dinosaur?" In general, I've had to steer away from Disney because DS (also 4) is a little sensitive and the whole orphan/evil bad guy/violent themes are too much for him to wrap his mind around, but when I spy this one on the library shelf, I'm tempted (skeptical, but tempted). DS ADORES dinosaurs though and aside from a few kid style documentaries, and many many books, we've avoided movies. We tried "The Land Before Time" and of course, in the first few minutes the little dino loses Mommy and there's all sorts of violence.







Well, at least there's always "Land of the Lost." DS has seen one episode on a library video and LOVES it. We may just stick with that for now.

And then regarding Disney, I think it was my book, "Playful Parenting" that pointed out that so many of "children's movies" with female heriones focus on romance, while the male heroes focus on some life journey (albeit usually withOUT parents). These themes just don't appeal to me, and I think feed the many societal messages that I'm trying to avoid/overcome.

TIA,
Em


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm of the everything in moderation. We will not own EVERYTHING disney. But I won't go out of my way to avoid it either. Middle of the road, that's me.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Well...like it or not, Disney is kinda hard to avoid. I've taken the kids to WDW (which is easy to avoid. I don't believe in the 'every kid needs to go to Disney' stuff. Blech. take your kid to a museum, for gosh sakes. Plus, we like it better when it's not crowded







) , we've seen quite a few movies. We're not 'fans', we don't buy a lot of plastic toys, don't eat at fast food places, so my children don't own any of those little toys etc, and I can't deal with any sort of character themed sheets etc. But I love to watch Finding Nemo so much that my kids groan. On the weekend when dh and I fold laundry, I put it in as one of my selections. I am ashamed to say how many times I've seen it. That "Probably A-MERI-can" line kills me every time. LOL

I don't think Disney is hard to avoid at all. I just don't buy it. You have to choose to buy the movies and accessories, as a consumer. Friends sent some Disney clothing for my kids last year and my son asked what the tag said. When I responded, "Disney.", he asked, "What does that mean?". I don't lock him up or anything. We go out in the general world, but he doesn't know what Disney is yet, because we choose not to buy it. I respect your POV and your choice to buy Disney, so I'm not trashing what you do. I was just commenting on your opinion that Disney is hard to avoid. It has been easy to avoid, IME.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i don't like disney at all
my MIL is a dsiney nut too (they even went there on their honeymoon, yuck!)
we don't have anything disney and don't plan on it till dd is A LOT older and i have to really pick and choose my battles...and by then hopefuly i will have raised her with some taste and she will think that the stuff is as trashy as it is.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Sorry, Disney is NOT benign. It's NOT cute. It's NOT harmless.

And it doesn't make it any less harmful that kids watch it when they "don't understand all that". That makes it _worse_. They don't understand it, so their spongy little brains are absorbing it all. They don't have any other experience to compare it to, so they accept it without hesitation as normal. It's forming their expectations and understanding of the world.

Disney media is an insidious, effective way to indoctrinate children into a hundred and one subtle versions of racism, sexism and commercialism. I'm always, frankly, appalled at the number of people who refuse to think about the implications of their kids absorbing this crap constantly, or who have the implications pointed out to them and stick their fingers in their ears and loudly sing some Disneyfied tune.








-- don't you love when someone bumps an ancient thread and people seamlessly continue responding to it, as if there had been no pause? :LOL


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:

Can you tell me a little bit about "Dinosaur?" In general, I've had to steer away from Disney because DS (also 4) is a little sensitive and the whole orphan/evil bad guy/violent themes are too much for him to wrap his mind around, but when I spy this one on the library shelf, I'm tempted








Sadly, Embee, this is more of the same. The egg is the only one left after a rampaging and very realistic T-rex runs through his nest, trampling his siblings and running off his mother. The egg is then passed around/fought over by things that want to eat it until it lands on an island of lemurs who adopt it. My ds, like his warped father







, _loved_ to be scared. He's outgrown this a little bit. Only a little bit - we are hooked on *Animal Planets "Dragons"* (absolutely STUNNING documentary as if dragons had been real creatures like dinosaurs.







).
The imagery is amazing in Dinosaur and for older children it might be good. Kinda hooks them in and the second half has a bunch of good lessons in it (really more about human behaviour and not leaving the weak behind just because they "slow down the herd").


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## inthesnow (Dec 8, 2004)

We have inherited some of the older Disney movies and sometimes my girls like to watch them.....

That being said, I am reading a book called Growing a Girl. Wonderful book. There is a chapter that talks about Disney and about the lack of female role models in general. The author says something that really stuck with me. She said that everyone is so worried about helpless girls trying to win the man. But she is more concerned about the fact that every villainess is single, childless, hateful, ugly, alone. What message is that giving to our daughters? Choosing to remain single or childless is a curse to make you a miserable human? How does that cubbyhole what femininity is in our society?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
don't you love when someone bumps an ancient thread and people seamlessly continue responding to it, as if there had been no pause?

Thread/topic necromancy is just the perfect way to bring a little magic in your life.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*







-- don't you love when someone bumps an ancient thread and people seamlessly continue responding to it, as if there had been no pause? :LOL

:LOL

I started this thread when my dd was 5. She's now 8. I appreciate the walk down memory lane and the chance to think about how things have turned out.

I have since talked (often) with dd about the stereotypes and messages that Disney movies (and other media) send. She has become quite the critic. But at the same time she chooses to watch it unless it is insulting or violent. I have learned that the more I restrain her from something the more she craves it, so I try to let her make her own decisions (with my input and discussion if necessary). Her fascination with Disney (aka her Princess phase) has largely waned, but there is still the Disney Channel and all the "tween" shows. I don't have much of a problem with shows like Raven and Lizzie McGuire, but some of the others are too insulting to watch. Like the new one with the cute little Spears girl. It was so bad that I had to sit and talk with dd through it. She decided she didn't want to watch it either luckily. Little kids who live away from their parents, with most everything centered around boy versus girl battles and boy-girl crushes, and plenty of attitude and constant peer competition.









Anyway, I'm glad the discussion continues....


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyPants*







Sadly, Embee, this is more of the same. The egg is the only one left after a rampaging and very realistic T-rex runs through his nest, trampling his siblings and running off his mother. The egg is then passed around/fought over by things that want to eat it until it lands on an island of lemurs who adopt it. My ds, like his warped father







, _loved_ to be scared. He's outgrown this a little bit. Only a little bit - we are hooked on *Animal Planets "Dragons"* (absolutely STUNNING documentary as if dragons had been real creatures like dinosaurs.







).
The imagery is amazing in Dinosaur and for older children it might be good. Kinda hooks them in and the second half has a bunch of good lessons in it (really more about human behaviour and not leaving the weak behind just because they "slow down the herd").









Hey thanks! I really appreciate this. Indeed, DS is totally DRAWN to those things that scare him, but I do have to be pretty judicsious at this point because it really affects his sleep. He enjoys it per se, but you can tell his imagination is tossing it up, down and all around. He is loving this Land of the Lost episode I found at the library, but has asked me to fast forward through the part where the t-rex eats the coelophyisis. The rest is fine, lots of grumping about, but no one getting eaten. Seems I'd better wait until he's older for the films, but that's ok... something to look forward to WHEN he's ready. Our library also has some more mature dino documentaries for kids which will give us more dino fodder for the future.

Thanks for the information on the "Dragons." I dont' have cable myself, but my sis is always happy to record shows for us if we need... usually animal planet, surprise surprise.









Thanks again,
Em


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:

Hey thanks! I really appreciate this.
You are most welcome! I love when people talk to me anyway.
















Quote:

Indeed, DS is totally DRAWN to those things that scare him, but I do have to be pretty judicsious at this point because it really affects his sleep. He enjoys it per se, but you can tell his imagination is tossing it up, down and all around.









If you get a copy of Dragons, watch it first to see if it will suit him there are some scary parts when the knights come for the last dragon - I got it on DVD at the local blockbuster.
ITA on the sleep. That is why ds has been back to watching DVDs of the Wiggles, Dora and Bob the Builder - a very great deal this week unfortunately as he has been, unusual for him, sick sick sick








but no interest in merchandise yet. :LOL


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