# How do you feel about this?



## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

My son's kindergarten teacher (who I really like for many reasons) sends home a little newletter about what they're doing every month. I just got December's. On it, it had the following:

"Homework folders are due every Thursday! I have been giving the children a small treat on Thursday morning if they remember to bring their homework folder to school. Good habits start early."

My ds told me that the treats are usually starburst or some other small candy.

What do you think?


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I will put on my flame suit and say

I am fine with it ................








:

I, peronally, would do a sticker, or a coupon for an extra book / choice of book at story time (but that would be tough in a class where, assumabley most are getting the treat) or something like that .... not a candy ......

But I am ok with the reward thing.

I agree good habits state young and I also accept that internal motivation for things (getting chorse or homework done, cleaning up toys) is a long time in coming and has to be taught SOME WAY.

I also understand that what a teacher can do with a room full of kids is a lot differnt that what a mom can do with one or two or even 6 or 7 at home in an AP enviorments.

I know my DN's teacher was useing candy that way and Sis bought here a bunch of little toys from Orential Express .... the kids were earning a treat at the end of the week, one a week, and sis got her tons of bouncy balls and little things like that, and the teacher awarded them on Friday afternoon ....... so that she would not use food / candy ........

One one level i agree with sis -- food is a nuteral in our family, it is there, and it is not based on good or bad ..... though treats can be earned by the family as a whole







......................so sis helped the teacher find an alternative ......

but

in general

the idea of a small treat once a week for remembering their homeowork folder ................ i am ok with that (I would rather the treat not be candy).

I am wearing my flame suit as i know few, if any, will agree with me

Aimee


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't like it, but unfortunately schools are based on a behavioral system. It's all reward/punishment based. Getting away from that is one reason why people homeschool. I don't homeschool, but I grudgingly accept that schools are what they are.

Something other than candy would be better though. If my daughter got a piece of candy first thing in the morning, she'd start having tantrums by about 9 to 9:30.


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## meaghann (Oct 23, 2007)

I wouldn't be too crazy about candy as a good work habit breeder, and I would find a nice way to ask her to exclude my son from this reward system. [Or I would just turn his folder in on Friday







]


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I have no issue either however I would have liked to know in advance. We try to avoid HFCS and trans fat so I would have brought in an alternative to commercial candy.

We don't use a reward system at home (anymore!) but I have no issue w/ the teacher using one. A lot of my son's friends have reward systems at home and I explain it to him but talking about "different families/different rules". This has been a great jumping off point to discuss other families traditions, celebrations as well as mundane things like different bed times, TV habits etc.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I would have a problem with starbursts in the morning. Like somebody mentioned, if my ds got that first thing in the morning, he'd be having a low blood sugar meltdown and hour later!
I would suggest to the teacher that she use a non food item.


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## HeatherRD (Oct 22, 2007)

I don't think it's a good idea. I agree with PP that stickers or a non-food item would be a good alternative.

People should eat because they are hungry, but in our society there are so many other reasons people eat, which is why obesity rates continue to increase. Advertising has a lot to do with it. Also making your child finish everything on his plate even if he is full can lead to him eat more than he should. Rewarding with food can also cause weight gain and reinforce other reasons for eating other than hunger.

Again, reward with things other than food.

The interesting part of the teacher's comments is "Good habits start young." Exactly! So why is she giving them candy???!!!


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I think it's ridiculous that kindergartners have homework folders. I also am not sure how a parent making sure a child's homework folder is in his backpack is helping kids start good habits early.

But you are probably looking for input specifically about the starbursts & other candy the kids are receiving. For me a small candy (especially once per week) is not a big deal so I don't think that part specifically would bother me but using it as a reward that some kids don't get (I can imagine my DS feeling pretty upset if I forgot to send the folder and he didn't get one) & having homework folders that are due (it used to be the school sent a folder of what the child did at school home to the parents not the other way around)--that stuff does bother me.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for your thoughts. When I read this, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but I wasn't sure exactly what my issue was or if I was making something out of nothing. I know one piece of candy a week is really not a huge deal - we have stuff like that once in a while here - but I do feel like maybe she should have let us know.

It struck me too as kind of ironic that she said, "Good habits start early." Exactly, so why would you undermind that with using a reward system and using food as a reward instead of nourishment?

And Needle in the Hay, you're exactly right. HE's not the one remembering or forgetting his folder at this point, it's ME. Maybe I should get the candy!









I actually don't have too much of an issue with the homework itself for my DS in particular. It's only one worksheet and then a book or 2 to read/have parents read to the kids, and they have the whole week to do it. And the worksheets are actually little activities to do rather than working on the paper. My DS is actually liking school more now that homework has started and he's pretty pround to be able to read the books she sends home for him.

I'm not sure I should say anything about it to her right now though. Like I said, he's finally starting to like school a little, and a lot of that has to do with her working with us to challenge him with appropriate work. I don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking right now. But, maybe eventually? I don't know.

But thanks. It always helps to talk things out the awesome mamas on MDC!


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysmom2* 
And Needle in the Hay, you're exactly right. HE's not the one remembering or forgetting his folder at this point, it's ME. Maybe I should get the candy!


















Yes you deserve it!
I'm glad to hear the kind of homework he has is activity type stuff and that he likes it.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

_


Needle in the Hay said:



I think it's ridiculous that kindergartners have homework folders. I also am not sure how a parent making sure a child's homework folder is in his backpack is helping kids start good habits early.

Click to expand...

_


Needle in the Hay said:


> We have folders for school and I love them. We call them communication folders and it is a good way to send info back and forth to school.
> 
> Why is it the parent's job to remember? A 5 year old can keep track of a folder if he knows he needs to take it each day (or each thursday.) When my oldest started school I told him it is his job, just like dp goes to work to earn money and I take care of the children. His job is to do the best he can at school. So he remembers that he needs to have sneakers on Tues for gym, and he remembers that he need to have his library book for fridays, etc.
> 
> My 4 year old knows it is her job to remember her backpack for preschool. (I pack what she needs, but she has to get it to the car and into the school. I don't remind her.)


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Why is it the parent's job to remember? A 5 year old can keep track of a folder if he knows he needs to take it each day (or each thursday.) When my oldest started school I told him it is his job, just like dp goes to work to earn money and I take care of the children. His job is to do the best he can at school. So he remembers that he needs to have sneakers on Tues for gym, and he remembers that he need to have his library book for fridays, etc.
I agree

My sister and i made a calander for her boys -- posted on the fridge -- with each day of hte school week and what they need (libary books return day or whatever) . Each night the boys corss of today adn look ahead to tomorrow -- yes Sis makes sure everything they bring homeor tell her about gets posted ... she has them help ... but they have to look at it.

Like her or I looking at the day timer today to see we have to take the baby to the doctor tomorrow

not only do they learn it is their responiblity -- they learn a WAY to do it ....

Just a thought.

AImee


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
Why is it the parent's job to remember? A 5 year old can keep track of a folder if he knows he needs to take it each day (or each thursday.) When my oldest started school I told him it is his job, just like dp goes to work to earn money and I take care of the children. His job is to do the best he can at school. So he remembers that he needs to have sneakers on Tues for gym, and he remembers that he need to have his library book for fridays, etc.

My 4 year old knows it is her job to remember her backpack for preschool. (I pack what she needs, but she has to get it to the car and into the school. I don't remind her.)

But just because YOUR child can remember, doesnt mean ALL children can remember.

I also think that you are assuming all parents are as involved as you are. Your five yr old only remembers, because you've instilled in him that its important....what if you had alot of other things going on in your life (whether because you were working three jobs, or had six other kids, or because you had issues like drug or alcohol dependancy, or because school issues just werent important to you...), and therefore your child didnt get the support at home to do his homework or remember to bring it in? So that child gets punished because his mother dropped the ball?

I personally think that rewards are often just the flip side of punishments. Imagine being the only five yr old in a class who forgot his assignment, and having to watch all the other kids enjoy their treat. Personally, i dont think thats a very effective way to teach "good habits".....my son will never forget (and he's 11!)when he brought cupcakes into his K class for his birthday, and was told one particular child couldnt have one because he didnt finish his work. It was sad. These are 5 yr olds! If a child is forgetting his homework, the teacher should come up with creative/effective ways to help him remember it (and may include talking to the parent to see if there's an issue at home)....not singling out the child for punishment.









Katherine


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I do not mind children having sweets.
But I do mind children being rewarded - let alone rewarded with food.
But then again our house is an UP house - We dont do praise/rewards.
And then of course theres a whole lot else I dont agree with but you have decided to send your child to school so I guess you just have to go with it...like homework...and homework folders...etc lol


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

My ds was getting two or three treats a day from his K teacher--not just once a week. So I took in a bag of change (mostly pennies) and asked her to give him a coin for each reward, rather than candy. She was fine with it, and so was ds!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I personally think that rewards are often just the flip side of punishments. Imagine being the only five yr old in a class who forgot his assignment, and having to watch all the other kids enjoy their treat. Personally, i dont think thats a very effective way to teach "good habits".....my son will never forget (and he's 11!)when he brought cupcakes into his K class for his birthday, and was told one particular child couldnt have one because he didnt finish his work. It was sad. These are 5 yr olds! If a child is forgetting his homework, the teacher should come up with creative/effective ways to help him remember it (and may include talking to the parent to see if there's an issue at home)....not singling out the child for punishment.









Katherine

So true!

Things like this are one reason I'm glad we unschool.

I remember one time in Sunday School, my dd was so sad when they played a game with teams and the kids on the winning team got to pick a prize from the prize-box. When something's perfectly fun in and of itself, there's no need to remove the focus from the fun thing, and direct it to a prize. Of course, dd was happy the week before when her team won. My point is, she would've been just as happy just playing the game, you know?

But I'm thinking, why not just let the games be for fun, and just have times when you periodically let everyone pick a gift from the gift-box? Of course, I love UP like ann_of_loxley does. I realize I can't re-structure my children's outside world to match my personal ideals -- so my answer is just to support my dd and let her decide if she wants to be involved in something or not. She still likes Sunday School, and she knows it's her choice, so there must be enough positives to outweigh the negatives for her.

I wouldn't make a very good school parent, because I'd leave it up to dd to decide whether she wanted to work on homework or do something else with her free-time. Of course I'd remind her to take the folder, and the work in it might actually get done, if dd happened to decide she wanted to spend part of her free-time working on it.

It does make me sad that children are being rewarded (or punished by having to watch other children get a reward they don't get) based on what kinds of parents they have.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I effing hate arbitrary rewards.....but then again, I am likley to unschool next year and so I dont have to worry about it.

If I were leaving him in school though, I would probably have to be ok with what they are doing.









Just one little candy probably wont hurt...unless someone is allergic to dye.

My ds ONLY cares about "treasure box" at school and I have to try and sound excited when he gets it. Even though its usually a cheap plastic toy from China OR candy.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

At first when I read this I was o.k. w/ it, though I would too want to know ahead of time what the treat was as Evan is particular can't just have any candy or food. The more I read though, I agree w/ those who are against the whole system. I tend to think 5 is a little young to put this reponsibility on them. Yes, they should remember on their own, but if they don't are you going to just let them forget their stuff? That seems silly to me at this age. We have a communication journal too that I have to read everyday and the teacher updates me on his day etc. For me I choose to never let it leave school, I read and sign it right away and just leave it w/ the teacher b/c I'm a forgetful person and I'm well over 5.







I am not totally against rewards as there needs to be something to work towards in most things, but at this age I'm not sure they understand enough to not just be sad if they didn't get a treat.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

yea No Child Left Behind!









BOOOOOOO!!!!

Thats why its soooooooooo important that a 5 yr old can perform at a 10 yr olds level.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I see all kinds of things wrong with this.

First of all, I don't like food being given as a reward at all. Secondly, candy in the morning? Also not good. And I agree with the others that have said that the parents are basically the ones responsible for sending back the homework folder. My 6-year-old (who is in public K this year) can barely remember to wear shoes to school--okay, that's an exaggeration, but I do have to remind him about his folder and backpack every. single. morning. If I didn't, he wouldn't bring it. I'm not trying to say anyone in this thread is fibbing, but I really think that, if you never have to remind your 5-year-old to bring their folder to school, you have an *extremely* exceptional 5-year-old.

I think you should definitely speak with the teacher about this. I'm assuming you have a good relationship with her, so I bet she'll hear you out and value your opinion.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

they should give YOU some candy!


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## Elvirnon (May 4, 2005)

Honestly, it's not a battle I would pick.


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## cyncyn (Nov 19, 2004)

At first read, I was irked with the candy, the homework folder and the good habits part. But after reading the comments, and seeing the different points of view, I guess it is not so bad. We try to limit candy, not use rewards for incentive and don't really want to send dd to school because of silly homework BUT these things end up happening anyway, despite our best intentions.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Kindergartners, while too young to reliably remember to bring in their homework folder by themselves, ARE old enough to start learning responsibility and to help remind mama or papa to get the homework folder ready.

I don't really have a major problem with getting a small reward for remembering to do something that helps routines run smoothly- and to appreciate something positive even if the "routines running smoothly" part doesn't feel like a direct reward to the child.

But I have a huge problem with candy being given out as rewards. First, I have a problem with the whole "food as reward" issue and developing unhealthy eating habits (so homework routines are more important than learning to eat only when you're hungry?) and I'd throw a major fit if my child was being fed synthetic colors or flavors at school, when we avoid them. Yeah, I could send in approved candies for this purpose, but I'd my other objections still stand.

If it were my child, I'd contact the teacher about using stickers or small toys as rewards instead of candy.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

I dont like a food reward at all. Especially because we're vegetarian, starbursts have gelatin and he cant eat it. Id hate to have to go thru all their candy to make sure its okay for him to eat. Stickers are fine, but not food.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

Wouldn't bother me.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Wouldn't bother me. Probably b/c I would be a hypocrite if it did seeing how I have given DS a treat here and there for using the potty.







: (Am I gonna get flamed now?)


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I effing hate arbitrary rewards.....









It isn't arbitrary. If you do X, you get Y. How the heck is that arbitrary?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Thats why its soooooooooo important that a 5 yr old can perform at a 10 yr olds level.

????? I think taking care of personal items is a necessary skill for life. It irks me terribly when my son's friends lose mittens, coats, etc and the mom says "don't worry. That happens." What about trying to track the lost item down? Asking around, etc. She buys gloves by the dozen for her one child. There is no justification for that in my mind.

I don't think an individual reward is the right thing, but I don't think the expectation is too high. I've seen the "If everyone brings their library book the class gets a star. Once you have X stars you can pick out two books to take home." That still puts pressure on the one kid who forgets every week. But it can't always be pressure free- that is how we learn.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I think taking care of personal items is a necessary skill for life. It irks me terribly when my son's friends lose mittens, coats, etc and the mom says "don't worry. That happens." What about trying to track the lost item down? Asking around, etc. She buys gloves by the dozen for her one child. There is no justification for that in my mind.

While I'd certainly help my child try to track the lost item down, if another parent chooses to buy gloves by the dozen, why should she have to justify her decision to anyone else?

Quote:

I've seen the "If everyone brings their library book the class gets a star. Once you have X stars you can pick out two books to take home." That still puts pressure on the one kid who forgets every week. *But it can't always be pressure free- that is how we learn.*
Bolding mine.

Learn what?

I disagree that humans have to be under external pressure to learn. My children have done a tremendous amount of learning, where the only pressure was that of their own enthusiasm for the subject at hand. I guess passion for life is a form of pressure, and we're not "pressure-free" as long as we have the urge to get out there and try new stuff --

But I see that as a whole different ballgame from a pressure-cooker situation where a child has to watch his classmates get a treat while he misses out. There are just so many factors that can affect a 5yo's ability to remember his folder every week.

Maybe a few 5yo's have the inner organization to think of it on their own, but I think the majority are simply getting rewarded because their moms are on the ball (or punished because their moms are too disorganized or have too much on their plates).


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## hippiemum21580 (Jul 14, 2007)

I would jump on the teacher about the candy but that is becaus emine RARELY have sweets like that and my eldest is on the Fiengold diet, so.....
Also, I agree, it depends more on the parent at this age. I babysit for a girl whose mother has NO organization at all in her home. She is always losing her shoes, homework, etc... I feel it is not right for her to be punished if she brings her folder home, sets it on the table and then it gets buried under a stack of laundry or something.....


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
It irks me terribly when my son's friends lose mittens, coats, etc and the mom says "don't worry. That happens." What about trying to track the lost item down? Asking around, etc. She buys gloves by the dozen for her one child. There is no justification for that in my mind.

You may not see the justification. But perhaps your friend knows her child well enough, through experience, to know that its better to have a dozen gloves and not sweat it, then for the child to go to school with freezing hands, because once again he came home from school with no gloves. When my son was in K, he would often lose his gloves, even his coat, and it was frustrating because it seemed the teachers did very little to remind him or help him remember. In K, i had to go out and buy all new pants for him, with pockets, because otherwise he always lost his lunch money. I asked the school if perhaps i could just pay for his lunch weekly, because i always ended up owing them money anyway (due to my son losing his money, and the school providing him a lunch anyway)...and the secretary very condescendingly said to me "This is elementary school, Mom, he has to learn sometime!!!" (ugh, i'm not your mom, but thanks anyway...)...but the school my niece goes to encourages the parents to keep an acct going, where you can deposit so much, and the child doesnt need to bring money to school everyday.

I think its easy to judge if you dont have the type of kid who is always forgetting, losing stuff....my son can have his backback *in his hands*...we get in the car, i say "Where's your backback??"...he set it down to put on his coat and forgot, just like that. He's soooo much better than when he was 5, and i'm sure he'll be even more adept at 25. But to blame him, or make him "suffer the consequences" of his forgetting doesnt work. Maybe it works with some kids. I dont know. It doesnt work with mine.

Katherine


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
While I'd certainly help my child try to track the lost item down, if another parent chooses to buy gloves by the dozen, why should she have to justify her decision to anyone else? ).

I guess I'm critical of using items meant for long term use only once. It is incredibly wasteful and I believe we all have a responsibility to tread somewhat lightly, or at least to be aware of when we are not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I disagree that humans have to be under external pressure to learn. My children have done a tremendous amount of learning, where the only pressure was that of their own enthusiasm for the subject at hand. I guess passion for life is a form of pressure, and we're not "pressure-free" as long as we have the urge to get out there and try new stuff -- ).


I don't think anyone can fully recognize their potential until they have gone past it. You have to reach failure before you know your limit. So when we just get put in (or put ourselves in) over our heads we often realize just how much we can do. Think of your parenting. (well, here, I'll think of mine.







) When I had 3 kids (2 bio, 1 foster) I learned I was pregnant with twins. Yikes. I knew I could not handle that given that I'm alone 6 out of every 8 days, that we don't have $ for help, a larger house, etc. Well, the babies are 6 months old and I'm doing it. I think I'm doing all I can but what if 2 more kids suddenly came along? Maybe I could do that just fine too. (Let's hope I never find out!!







)

Now, we are way off the original topic. And whether this (putting kids just out of their comfort zone to push the limit of who they are) can be done is a school setting is another whole conversation.

Back to the folder. So a kid forgets his folder one week. That failure is not so drastic, but maybe enough that he remembers it the next week. I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation for the kids my sons' class. That doesn't mean it is right for the whole world. Some 7/8 year olds are responsible for caring for other human beings. Some can't be trusted to hang on to a $28 pair of mittens for 4 hours.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

But mumm, the learning situation that took you out of your comfort-zone was one essentially chosen _by you_, in the same way that my children constantly take themselves out of their comfort zones when learning new things they're passionate about.

In choosing to embrace your relationship with your partner, you opened yourself to the possibility that the results could grow into something bigger than you'd imagined (no pun intended!







). In a similar way, a child may embrace climbing a tree and have some difficulty getting back down ... of course, when my children get into difficult spots I'm there to support them, but the actual task of climbing back down is usually pretty much that climber's "baby" (okay, a _little_ pun intended here







).

In contrast, unless a child is _choosing_ to go to school (I'm not speculating about whether this is the case with the OP's child, but the majority of schoolchildren DON'T have a choice in the matter) -- the child isn't really CHOOSING to be pushed out of his comfort zone by facing punishment (in the form of denied privileges) if he forgets his folder.

He's being externally pressured, not internally impelled by his own intense interest in the subject at hand. This external pressure may be essential to keeping the school machinery oiled and running smoothly, but it's NOT essential for true learning to take place. In fact, I think it's counterproductive.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I would not like that candy/food was being given as a reward. I don't have an issue with non-food items as positive reinforcement though.

I remember getting special stickers or stamps as a reward for doing good work when I was in school. There was also the chart that got stars on it when you completed some task or level.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I guess i dont have a problem if a teacher notices a child is doing well, and gives him a sticker or even candy as a little reward..fine, whatever. My main issue is if the entire class is now having "candy reward time" and certain kids are left out, publicly, to sit there and watch the other kids enjoy their candy. Because the ones being left out are being punished for something that may not even be their fault. There are kids that switch from mom's house to dad's house during the week, yknow? Things can get left behind. So thats what my main issue is...i just feel so sad for these little kids, only five years old (now that my son is 11, five just seems so little to me, yknow?!), sitting there, deeply sad inside, perhaps ashamed. A child could remember a moment like that forever. Thats what i have an issue with.....leaving out certain kids. I think its counterproductive.

Katherine


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## katt (Nov 29, 2001)

why don't you make a deal w/ you kid... He save 4 starbursts and gets a "insert special item/activity here". That way he still gets the treat from the teacher but is more inclined to save it then eat it.

As for the whole reward system at school... i'd be happier w/o food rewards, stickers etc...


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
It isn't arbitrary. If you do X, you get Y. How the heck is that arbitrary?

It's arbitrary because X and Y are completely unrelated. It's not unlike natural consequences -- the natural consequence of remembering to bring your homework to school as a 5 year old is a piece of candy?

When I was in 1st grade, my math teacher gave out scented gingerbread stickers to every A paper. I was/am a highly intelligent person, but the way that this particular teacher approached math did not click with me -- hence, I NEVER received a gingerbread sticker, and it made me feel like CRUD. Eventually, my mom had me switched to the other 1st grade teacher (who didn't use rewards, btw), and I immediately understood my math, and was back to getting A's. I attribute the switch in grades to a difference in actual teaching methods, but I certainly did NOT miss the reward system. And I didn't need it.

There are limited situations in which rewards/incentives are useful. I've read in the past that reward systems are best used in situations that have a definite end goal, and that are not ongoing in nature. So, using rewards for potty learning isn't as big a deal as using them for remembering folders. At some point in the ongoing processes, many people (and this is true when training animals, too) will stop caring about whether or not they get the reward. In most cases, the focus is completely removed from the goal (remembering and being responsible for one's own things because that's what we do) and placed entirely on the reward, which in and of itself is meaningless.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Wow - this has become quite an interesting discussion. I do feel badly for those kids who don't get the treat. Especially because my ds has mentioned who didn't get it. So, it's not like the candy distribution is super subtle. And, I just feel like it's a bad idea to start them out this way. It may not have occurred to these kids that they should bring in their homework folders for any other reason than that the teacher asked them to. But now, they've been introduced to the idea that you need to find out what's in it for me? YK?

I was reading an article about how new college grads are being given all kinds of rewards at work for showing up on time. Apparently this is what this generation has come to expect - rewards for simply meeting basic expectations. And I think this is where it starts - these kids are not doing some amazing extra work that is far above and beyond what is expected of them, they are only meeting a reasonable goal. Doing your best on your homework and feeling proud to hand it in should be enough.

And I know that one boy in his class who didn't turn his in last time (actually completely lost his homework folder and its contents) has MAJOR issues at home. Totally not his fault, but still he had to sit there watching his friends eat candy.

So, if I do bring this up with the teacher, what do I say? Like I mentioned previously, I like her very much and this is really the only issue I have with her. I really want to continue to work together with her to help my ds. I just don't want to sound like a jerk.

Thanks everybody. This has really helped me think about this.


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## Girlymomwithsons (Nov 28, 2007)

I only read about half the posts, so if someone already said this, I appologize. I agree with most that the reward being candy is what bothers me more. Although I think that the homework folder should be turned in because it's what is expected. That good habits start early thing does apply to this, because next year, if the new teacher just takes for granted that the work should be done and doesn't offer a reward, some of those kids are not going to put in the effort anymore. But what I really wanted to say is that I would mention concerns about the candy to the teacher, because she may not have thought the effects through. She might just be thinking, hey, it's a cheap, easy treat that kids love. But I know that since a lot of schools are cracking down on nutrition, those candies may get her into trouble somewhere along the line.


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## Girlymomwithsons (Nov 28, 2007)

Theatermom: Wow, you said what I was thinking, only you sound so smart about it! Good job!


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

You, Queenjane, are totally right, imo.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
But just because YOUR child can remember, doesnt mean ALL children can remember.

I also think that you are assuming all parents are as involved as you are. Your five yr old only remembers, because you've instilled in him that its important....what if you had alot of other things going on in your life (whether because you were working three jobs, or had six other kids, or because you had issues like drug or alcohol dependancy, or because school issues just werent important to you...), and therefore your child didnt get the support at home to do his homework or remember to bring it in? So that child gets punished because his mother dropped the ball?

I personally think that rewards are often just the flip side of punishments. Imagine being the only five yr old in a class who forgot his assignment, and having to watch all the other kids enjoy their treat. Personally, i dont think thats a very effective way to teach "good habits".....my son will never forget (and he's 11!)when he brought cupcakes into his K class for his birthday, and was told one particular child couldnt have one because he didnt finish his work. It was sad. These are 5 yr olds! If a child is forgetting his homework, the teacher should come up with creative/effective ways to help him remember it (and may include talking to the parent to see if there's an issue at home)....not singling out the child for punishment.









Katherine

I resent that my dd ever has this food/goody reward and punishment system in her current class with teacher Cruella De Ville II. All the time. I resent anyone taking the liberty of giving my child candy (I do it all the time myself, but she's MY child!).

Giving kids SWEETS when they are not going to be brushing their teeth for hours is detrimental to dental health=BAD HABIT

Motivating good behavior with sweets sets up equating sweets with being good=BAD HABIT

VF


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

I don't believe in homework for kindergarten.

I don't think that any child should be punished and made to feel guilty because he forgot to bring something to school.

And in any event, I don't think that children should view schoolwork as a kind of chore for which we need to give them candy to get them to hand in. And certainly not in kindergarten.


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## nolansmummy (Apr 19, 2005)

:


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm not reading any responses, so I wont be swayed.

I'm perfectly fine with it. Kids love and deserve the occasional treat. If a parent is completely against all sugar, they should provide the teacher with an acceptable alternative.


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## MichelleS (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meaghann* 
I wouldn't be too crazy about candy as a good work habit breeder, and I would find a nice way to ask her to exclude my son

I agree with this - especially since my DS has pretty serious food allergies.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I would speak to the teacher about giving healthy treats.If she doesnt want to then send a healthy alternative for your child


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Candy wouldn't motivate our son. He can eat it when he wants.









Pat


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

In California it's against the law. Yep, you read it right....against state legislation. Arnold signed a bill called the Healthy School Now Act that includes two bills in legislation. Teachers, and admin. are NOT allowed to give or sell candy and soda before, during, and an hour after school. Snacks sold at school must meet a certain criteria. No more soda machines. So teachers are not allowed to give candy, even one small starburst as a reward, ever. Where do you live?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
In California it's against the law. Yep, you read it right....against state legislation. Arnold signed a bill called the Healthy School Now Act that includes two bills in legislation. Teachers, and admin. are NOT allowed to give or sell candy and soda before, during, and an hour after school. Snacks sold at school must meet a certain criteria. No more soda machines. So teachers are not allowed to give candy, even one small starburst as a reward, ever. Where do you live?

I'm moving.









ANd this guy can't be president?


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## Logan's mommy (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:

I don't believe in homework for kindergarten.
This was one of my big issues with ds kindergarten. He had homework and a homework folder that had to be sent to and from school everyday. I don't have a problem with the candy, but do see how it would be devistating for a child to not get candy when the rest of the class did. We are VERY unorganized here, and ds goes to daycare, so he has many opportunities to loose a folder, and did. He has also lost at daycare a few library books and a school book. He's in first grade now, and while we tell him that he needs to leave all his things in his book bag until he gets home it doesn't always work that way. There are many things that may cause a child not to bring a folder back to school. Around our house it was more like some of the work that was sent home was for parents to do rather than for the children. We try to make a habit (or I do anyway) of making sure homework is done first thing when we get home and then the folder goes right back into the bag, however because of work I'm not always home in the evening and ds might spend a few hours at grandma's before dh gets home, that adds one more place for things to get lost. Sorry, I kinda highjacked and rambled.







I also probably lost my point.


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## KimProbable (Jun 22, 2005)

I would have a problem with it. Unfortunately, it sounds quite similar to what went on all the time when DS attended school for two years. I think it's become normal in the school system to constantly hand out rewards and treats, often in the form of sugar. DS frequently came home with his healthy lunch still packed in his bag because he'd eaten candy and chips instead. What a great set-up for a sensitive child to have a crappy evening!

Anyhow, I think that you could approach the teacher about it but it'll be something that comes up repeatedly in the school system. If these kinds of things are deal-breakers for you, you might want to check into homeschooling. That's what worked for us!


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## dentmom3 (Aug 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Giving kids SWEETS when they are not going to be brushing their teeth for hours is detrimental to dental health=BAD HABIT
VF

I was reading the whole thread looking for a mention of dental health in here! Thank you!

I cringe at the thought of DD eating candy first thing in the morning when she gets to school and then not brushing her teeth until bed time. Especially something as sticky as a starburst. Just the dental geek in me, I suppose, but this is the first thing that came to mind. Not rewards and punishments, not parenting styles, or responsibilities, not whether homework in K is good or bad, but PLAQUE!!! Without thinking at all about whether or not the reward system itself should be used here, I would be much more comfortable if there wasn't candy involved.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's mommy* 
We try to make a habit (or I do anyway) of making sure homework is done first thing when we get home and then the folder goes right back into the bag, however because of work I'm not always home in the evening and ds might spend a few hours at grandma's before dh gets home, that adds one more place for things to get lost. Sorry, I kinda highjacked and rambled.







I also probably lost my point.









Actually, I think you've just made an excellent point! Don't at least 50% of school-aged children have both parents working outside the home? It doesn't seem fair to me to reward half the class (or whatever percentage it is) for having a SAHP who's able to keep all the loose ends tied up (and even many SAHP's may have lots of other stuff on their plates), and punish the other kids for coming from homes where sometimes life gets in the way.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Actually, I think you've just made an excellent point! Don't at least 50% of school-aged children have both parents working outside the home? It doesn't seem fair to me to reward half the class (or whatever percentage it is) for having a SAHP who's able to keep all the loose ends tied up (and even many SAHP's may have lots of other stuff on their plates), and punish the other kids for coming from homes where sometimes life gets in the way.
I do not think it is a SAHP vs a WOHP issue -- even if you work out side the home and DH does too, you are still the parent and still responible for all things parental -- permission slips, getting things to school, home work getting done and so on ............ thoese responiblies are not ONLY the responiblity of a parent at home ..... so an at home parent and a working parent have a differnt system, have differnt ways of doing things -- MAYBE -- but all the same things have to get done

If doeswn't matter if a praten wroks our side the home, how many hours or anything -- they still have to meet their parental responiblities regarding school one way or another ...............

I know MANY parents who work who would be insulted to have it implied they are less involved in school (or whatever) because they work -- they do all the same stuff i do.... just some times differntly.

AImee


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma Aimee* 
I know MANY parents who work who would be insulted to have it implied they are less involved in school (or whatever) because they work -- they do all the same stuff i do.... just some times differntly.

AImee

I dont think its an issue of being less "involved" but rather a time issue. When i was working fulltime outside of the home (now i work fulltime caring for my mom, at her home), at an office job, and my son attended school...there was soooo much less time to get things done. I would work til five or later, pick him up from afterschool program, possibly stop and get groceries or take out or go out to eat...by the time we were home, and settled, and lets say bath or whatever..it was bedtime. There is a big difference in time when your kid gets home at 3:30, and when you get home after six oclock. There were days that i honestly did not want to struggle with him to color in little ditto sheets at night.

Thats not to say that all WOH parents dont have time, or that SAH parents dont have alot on their plate....its more of an individual issue than that. But add in the fact that sometimes my son would be dropped off to school by me, then picked up by his father (who did not live with us), then transferred to grandma's house if dad had to go to work, then picked up by me late....can you see how in all that shuffle homework COULD get lost? There were days that my son spent the night at his dad's house and then was dropped off at school...i couldnt control what his dad did and at times he couldnt even remember to feed or bathe the kid, let alone send homework back to school.

Regardless, the point still stands that _most_ five year olds *in the absence of a parent helping them to remember* will not remember to bring homework back on Thursday. And if thats the case, then is it the child or the parent getting the "reward"??

Katherine


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

the point still stands that most five year olds in the absence of a parent helping them to remember will not remember to bring homework back on Thursday.
I agree

but

my point is this

it doesn't matter if the mom and dad both work or not -- homework still has to get done, and turned in, ON TIME be it for the candy or not, .......having a dule working couple for parents does not give a child a pass on getting the homework done and turned in. It doesn't matter if it is getting getting a reward or not -- even without the candy the homework folder would still be due and the working parent would still have to find a system for making sure it got turned in.










nad really ...........

Quote:

Giving kids SWEETS when they are not going to be brushing their teeth for hours
most schools do not have kids brush after lunch, or after any other in-class snack (DN has 2 snacks, am and pm in his all day kindergarden class puls lunch) ...............

and really

do YOU always rush off to brush your teeth each and every time you take a bite of anything?







I am lucky to get to bruch mine twice a day and more often than not miss the night time brush due to getting kids to bed ....

really ........


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## Logan's mommy (Jan 19, 2007)

[/QUOTE]homework still has to get done, and turned in, ON TIME be it for the candy or not[/QUOTE]

We run into the problem that ds's folder isn't getting turned in. He is in first grade, and he gets the homework done and it's in his book bag he just doesn't give it to the teacher (which is really a whole other problem







)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
I don't believe in homework for kindergarten.

I don't think that any child should be punished and made to feel guilty because he forgot to bring something to school.

And in any event, I don't think that children should view schoolwork as a kind of chore for which we need to give them candy to get them to hand in. And certainly not in kindergarten.

I agree with all of that. On the other hand, as a mom with a child in public school, I've long since accepted that I don't get to dictate how the teacher runs the class.

That doesn't mean that I just throw up my hands about everything. If I believe something that's going on in the classroom is detrimental to my son's well-being, I'll certainly address it. For example, I hate homework. For the most part, I believe it's a bunch of crap and interferes with time that kids should be spending with their friends, with their family, and doing interesting things that enhance learning (which most homework doesn't) and enrich their lives. That said, am I going to throw a fit about one or two worksheets a week? Of course not. Am I going to address the situation if my kid starts coming home with 30-45 minutes of homework? You bet. With gusto.









I've had to let a few things go when I put my son into school. The rewards thing is one of those. We don't do arbitrary rewards at home; never have (and candy absolutely is arbitrary because it has nothing logical to do with bringing a folder back). Ds' classroom, they do rewards. Not candy, but they get stickers for bringing in their Friday folders and those go toward filling up a bucket with bears (as do random other things - when the teacher notices good behavior, etc. - kind of like house points in Harry Potter







). When the bucket is full, they get to have a party of their choosing. I don't like it. However, I understand where the teacher is coming from. I can't honestly say I wouldn't resort to the same thing if there were 20 of them and 1 of me.

I also think my kid is smart enough to understand that we don't do things the same way at home. Last year, when he first went to K, he picked up a mess he had made in the living room and said, "Do I get rewarded for that?" I said, "you bet." Went over, gave him a *huge* hug and said, "I really appreciate you cleaning up the mess you made. It makes our living space so much nicer, don't you think?" It wasn't what he was looking for, but he got the point.









Anyway... that was a freaking book. Long story short, I'm of the "pick your battles" mindset. If this is a health issue, then by all means. If it's not, one small piece of candy in school as a reward - probably taking all of 5 seconds from the giving to the eating - isn't going to wreck your kid's health, physical or mental.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Not candy, but they get stickers for bringing in their Friday folders and those go toward filling up a bucket with bears (as do random other things - when the teacher notices good behavior, etc. - kind of like house points in Harry Potter







). When the bucket is full, they get to have a party of their choosing. I don't like it. However, I understand where the teacher is coming from. I can't honestly say I wouldn't resort to the same thing if there were 20 of them and 1 of me..

See as far as rewards go, i kinda like this idea....no one child is singled out as not getting the reward, yet there CAN be some sense of "peer pressure" to do well...so other kids might encourage others to be nicer, do their work on time, etc, to benefit the class as a whole. Rather than one child not getting to participate. And i like that things that kids are more in control of (like good behavior in class, doing extra work, whatever)also gets rewarded instead of just something the kid might not get to control (bringing in homework).

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

We run into the problem that ds's folder isn't getting turned in. He is in first grade, and he gets the homework done and it's in his book bag he just doesn't give it to the teacher (which is really a whole other problem )
This is a problem we had in both K and in first grade. In K, my son packed a lunch the first few days, but i guess he was the only kid who did, everyone else bought their lunch...i guess? Because he would come home with his full lunch still in his backpack, and a note in his pocket that said "Seamus owes forty cents for lunch." Grrr....how hard would it be to ask him to remember his lunch? But instead, they would line the kids up, walk them over to the big school for lunch, and he wouldnt even know what was going on til he was in line and they wanted money and he didnt have any. So i stopped packing, and just started sending money, which i made sure to put in his pants pocket each morning so he could just reach in and get it...if i put it anywhere else (like his backpack)he could not remember.

In first grade, at the parent teacher conference, his teacher was complaining to us that he never turned in his big homework packet...i said "Yes he did, i know he did it because i helped him with it" (normally i would just let him not do homework as it seemed like a waste of time to do busywork like that), she said no, i said "i'm sure you have it" so she went and got the box of homework packets...yep there was my son's. She had merely lost it. Great.







:

Katherine


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma Aimee* 
I know MANY parents who work who would be insulted to have it implied they are less involved in school (or whatever) because they work -- they do all the same stuff i do.... just some times differntly.

AImee

Did you not read the message posted by Logan's mommy? I certainly don't see her as any less involved -- but her post should help you see, firsthand, how parents with lots of outside demands on their time and energy, can find it hard to keep up with every little demand of their children's teachers.

Of course, it's not necessarily a WOHP/SAHP issue. I'm sure there are many WOHP's who manage to keep things organized and streamlined. And many SAHP's who don't. And it's not necessarily a reflection on the parent if things aren't streamlined.

Okay, now I'm going to be repetitive, but I'll repeat: it's unfair to punish children for things they have no control over. I don't believe in rewards and punishments anyway, but I realize taking rewards and punishments out of the schools would basically be amputating the legs the schools have to stand on.

So I'll just say, if you've got to reward/punish, at least do it for things the children themselves can do something about.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, I see nothing wrong with the occasional treat, but I am against food being used as a reward, especially on a weekly basis.

I also knew countless kids in school who were on the "losing/punishment" end of too many of these reward/incentive plans, for many different reasons. By the time we were in high school, they didn't care about rewards (if you aren't getting them, why care?) but they didn't care about doing the things that should have come naturally by that point, either (because the task had become disassociated from it's natural purpose). These were capable people, some way more intelligent than me, who were failing for many reasons, but not the least of which was a lack of intrinsic motivation and an assumption that failure was unavoidable.

Good habits do start early. Healthy eating habits, healthy dental habits, learning to keep things neat and tidy, healthy self awareness, and so on. But these habits take time to develop, and can't/shouldn't be rushed by artificial rewards (especially rewards that undermine other healthy habits). Rewards often shortchange the long term goals.

I would speak with the teacher about your concerns. She may not be aware that anyone sees anything wrong with her system (and many people don't, of course). I think that at the very least, it would reasonable for her to change the reward, and to make it less public -- meaning less obvious as to who is turning in a folder and who isn't (depending on how she's handling it now). Sometimes, we innocently think that a reward system only challenges a child to do better and compete against himself, when really we're putting kids in a competitive situation with each other (which is proving to be counter-productive in learning situations).


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## 3boobykins (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
I don't believe in homework for kindergarten.

I don't think that any child should be punished and made to feel guilty because he forgot to bring something to school.

And in any event, I don't think that children should view schoolwork as a kind of chore for which we need to give them candy to get them to hand in. And certainly not in kindergarten.









:


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## blumom2boyz (Jun 13, 2006)

ARRRGGGHH, my son's kindy teacher does the same thing! I understand the use of rewards for good behavior, but does it really have to be a piece of candy! It drives me insane! My dh just tells me to get over it


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

Oh, I could go on for days on this one. How can she see giving a child processed, sugary, food color laden junk as 'creating good habits'?!?







Is she teaching children or training dogs?

In the past when this has come up (my issue was with a huge multi-colored gift certificate that came home commending my daughter on losing a tooth! Something she has ABSOLUTELY no control over, happens naturally, and is rewarded in our home by a visit from the tooth fairy and a personal note thanking my daughter for her 'donation), I've reinforced my personal beliefs with my daughter's teachers by finding support from other parents in the class (You just may be amazed at how many aren't happy with it, but are 'afraid to go against the system'.) and in a non-confrontational way (she's doing the best she can) letting the teacher know there are many other ways to reward a child. We rely too heavily on exterior reinforcement for children's behavior and then wonder why they always 'expect something'.

What about just being proud of completing an assignment and doing what is expected in class? She should be reinforcing the 'habits' of internal gratification of a job well done and pride in one's own abilities.

And now I step down from my soapbox.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janansmom* 
In the past when this has come up (my issue was with a huge multi-colored gift certificate that came home commending my daughter on losing a tooth! Something she has ABSOLUTELY no control over, happens naturally, and is rewarded in our home by a visit from the tooth fairy and a personal note thanking my daughter for her 'donation),

Okay, I have to admit I just don't get this. Natural or not, no control or not, children get *very* excited about losing teeth and love to have others share in that excitement. What could possibly be wrong with that? Not to mention that they sometimes feel as though they've worked very hard - waiting, twisting, wiggling, etc. - to get the darned thing out.







It's incredibly sweet that your child's teacher even thought to mark the event for her.

Seriously, we really can take this whole "no rewards" thing too far. Occasional rewards are not going to ruin our children or turn them into junkies.


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## meaghann (Oct 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Seriously, we really can take this whole "no rewards" thing too far. Occasional rewards are not going to ruin our children or turn them into junkies.

Some rewards given in school or clubs run so counter to my value system, that I would strongly discourage my son from accepting the reward, or participating in the activity that generates the reward. A good example is the selling of magazines or knick knacks to raise $. I would not encourage and certainly would not help him sell stuff (where the profit split is something like 60/30/10 OEM/School/Child. I would, however, explain the paradigm and let my son decide. Even once a year, this kind of reward system reeks to me. (I usually give a small check donation to the school or club which wanted my purchase)

So imagine how eyerolling Id be if the teacher in this case further enhanced the rewards for a magazine selling scheme (scam) with candy as well. I would guess that Starburst makes other motivational appearances in her classroom as well.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meaghann* 
Some rewards given in school or clubs run so counter to my value system, that I would strongly discourage my son from accepting the reward, or participating in the activity that generates the reward. A good example is the selling of magazines or knick knacks to raise $. I would not encourage and certainly would not help him sell stuff (where the profit split is something like 60/30/10 OEM/School/Child. I would, however, explain the paradigm and let my son decide. Even once a year, this kind of reward system reeks to me. (I usually give a small check donation to the school or club which wanted my purchase)

So imagine how eyerolling Id be if the teacher in this case further enhanced the rewards for a magazine selling scheme (scam) with candy as well. I would guess that Starburst makes other motivational appearances in her classroom as well.


I agree about the "fundraisers," but think that's an entirely different issue. The rewards are only a small part of the problem there. In this scenario, the reward seems to be the whole issue (because, really, I don't think anyone takes issue with a child returning a folder to the class) and, really, it's a small piece of candy one time per week. Yes, if the teacher is tossing candy at them right and left for all sorts of things or generally unable to get anything done without rewards, then there's a bigger issue at play.

It offends my ideas about the proper way to raise children, as well, but I don't understand how this particular thing is such a big deal. To be honest, this is a very minor annoyance in the grander scheme of things. And, like I said, kids are smart enough to recognize that different settings operate in different ways. I can't imagine that because of this little thing, Starburst is going to bring about a Pavlovian response. Or that it's going to turn any child into a rewards junkie, especially when s/he is getting different messages at home.


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Seriously, we really can take this whole "no rewards" thing too far. Occasional rewards are not going to ruin our children or turn them into junkies.


Dragonfly...I don't believe in 'no rewards'. I reward my daughter for true accomplishments in her life. What I'm expressing frustration about is the 'over' rewarding of our children. We celebrate the loss of my daughter's teeth and feel that should suffice. I don't think it should be something she is "rewarded" for from every angle. Personally, I feel this sets the child up to expect that every natural occurance in life is a reason for cake, ice cream, gifts, and gift certificates. Sadly, after the 5 or 6 lost tooth gift certificates she received one for an outstanding art project at school was completely 'underwhelmed'. It was sad to see her unable to truly rejoice in something that was WORTHY of being praised.


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## lifescholar (Nov 26, 2006)

Oooh, that would P*#&$ me RIGHT off!!!

Maybe I'm too uptight, but I really feel that as my son's parent, my permission is needed before anybody gives him junk food.

PLUS, I'm teaching my son that a "treat" is just something you don't have very often...that could be a couple of strawberries, or some yogurt with cinnamon and fresh fruit, or of course, a non-food item such as a special sticker.

And THEN, I also think that the reward for doing homework is that you learn something. But then, that's the homeschooler in me, who doesn't really like the idea of homework (especially for kindergarten kids) in the first place!


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Haven't read anything but the original post.

Personally, with all the massive amount of things wrong with school systems, I cannot imagine getting upset, or complaining, about something like this. I honestly can't even see the issue. They do what they are suppose to, and they get rewarded. What's the problem? It's a single piece of candy once a week. I'm the type of person that saves my compaints for serious issues though, and this one just wouldn't phase me a bit. I don't see anything wrong with rewards for good behavior, and I don't see anything wrong with candy. There are far better things in life to get fussed about imo.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
Haven't read anything but the original post.

Personally, with all the massive amount of things wrong with school systems, I cannot imagine getting upset, or complaining, about something like this. I honestly can't even see the issue. They do what they are suppose to, and they get rewarded. What's the problem? It's a single piece of candy once a week. I'm the type of person that saves my compaints for serious issues though, and this one just wouldn't phase me a bit. I don't see anything wrong with rewards for good behavior, and I don't see anything wrong with candy. There are far better things in life to get fussed about imo.

The problem is that it isn't just one starburst per week for one year of the child's life. Nearly everyone in a child's life feels the need to step in and "reward" them for things that occur naturally in their lives (dentists, doctors, teachers, babysitters, grandparents, aunts and uncles, and so on). What's wrong with a simple "congratulations" or "thank you, I appreciate your work"? Trust me, "reward junkies" are not truly content individuals when they grow up, and the world can definitely use some more people who aren't motivated by personal gain.

There ARE many things wrong with school systems, certainly, and one of the serious ones, imo, is the over-rewarding, over-training, and over-manipulating of small children. They aren't dogs, and even serious dog trainers know that you don't reward the animal every time it does a specific task -- the motivation wears off. So, practically speaking, it doesn't work, and ethically, it's more than sketchy. Anything can look perfectly innocent when taken out of its larger context.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
In California it's against the law. Yep, you read it right....against state legislation. Arnold signed a bill called the Healthy School Now Act that includes two bills in legislation. Teachers, and admin. are NOT allowed to give or sell candy and soda before, during, and an hour after school. Snacks sold at school must meet a certain criteria. No more soda machines. So teachers are not allowed to give candy, even one small starburst as a reward, ever. Where do you live?

Yea!!!!!!

I live in CA. Thankfully I wont have to worry about this. Especially since DD is allergic to Corn products and HFCS is in EVERYTHING!


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

Lifescholar & Theatermom beautifully stated.









I don't think anyone can disagree that we have 'bigger issues' with our school systems, but THAT would require numerous other postings and require me to quit my job just to list them all!









IMO, we need to look at 'celebrating' life's joys with our children vs. 'rewarding' every minor event.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
In California it's against the law. Yep, you read it right....against state legislation. Arnold signed a bill called the Healthy School Now Act that includes two bills in legislation. Teachers, and admin. are NOT allowed to give or sell candy and soda before, during, and an hour after school. Snacks sold at school must meet a certain criteria. No more soda machines. So teachers are not allowed to give candy, even one small starburst as a reward, ever. Where do you live?

Unfortunately, I'm in Wisconsin. That is SO awesome that you have that law. And don't even get me started on the poor quality of the lunch program. So many problems&#8230;so little time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
Well, I see nothing wrong with the occasional treat, but I am against food being used as a reward, especially on a weekly basis.

I also knew countless kids in school who were on the "losing/punishment" end of too many of these reward/incentive plans, for many different reasons. By the time we were in high school, they didn't care about rewards (if you aren't getting them, why care?) but they didn't care about doing the things that should have come naturally by that point, either (because the task had become disassociated from it's natural purpose). These were capable people, some way more intelligent than me, who were failing for many reasons, but not the least of which was a lack of intrinsic motivation and an assumption that failure was unavoidable.

Good habits do start early. Healthy eating habits, healthy dental habits, learning to keep things neat and tidy, healthy self awareness, and so on. But these habits take time to develop, and can't/shouldn't be rushed by artificial rewards (especially rewards that undermine other healthy habits). Rewards often shortchange the long term goals.

I would speak with the teacher about your concerns. She may not be aware that anyone sees anything wrong with her system (and many people don't, of course). I think that at the very least, it would reasonable for her to change the reward, and to make it less public -- meaning less obvious as to who is turning in a folder and who isn't (depending on how she's handling it now). Sometimes, we innocently think that a reward system only challenges a child to do better and compete against himself, when really we're putting kids in a competitive situation with each other (which is proving to be counter-productive in learning situations).

I totally agree!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janansmom* 







Oh, I could go on for days on this one. How can she see giving a child processed, sugary, food color laden junk as 'creating good habits'?!?







Is she teaching children or training dogs?

In the past when this has come up (my issue was with a huge multi-colored gift certificate that came home commending my daughter on losing a tooth! Something she has ABSOLUTELY no control over, happens naturally, and is rewarded in our home by a visit from the tooth fairy and a personal note thanking my daughter for her 'donation), I've reinforced my personal beliefs with my daughter's teachers by finding support from other parents in the class (You just may be amazed at how many aren't happy with it, but are 'afraid to go against the system'.) and in a non-confrontational way (she's doing the best she can) letting the teacher know there are many other ways to reward a child. We rely too heavily on exterior reinforcement for children's behavior and then wonder why they always 'expect something'.

What about just being proud of completing an assignment and doing what is expected in class? She should be reinforcing the 'habits' of internal gratification of a job well done and pride in one's own abilities.

And now I step down from my soapbox.









I do wonder how other parents in the class feel about this. This is my first dc in school, so I'm still getting to know the other parents. She is very kind and sweet with them, so I'm sure she thinks she's doing something good - it just hasn't occurred to her that there may be a down side.

What a great discussion this is! Thanks everybody!


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

Wow! California's got it together! I'm in Michigan where they just recently had to have legislation against dove hunting...HUGE debate here...people calling radio & TV stations to defend their right to shoot doves for sport







(no one even mentioned eating them, which in my philosophy if you're going to hunt it you should eat it and use all pieces to honor the animal, but that's a whole different posting...) Doubt MI is quite progressive enough yet to implement legislation like that. But, I'm learning there are more like me here than I originally thought...maybe we can unite!

I agree...this has been a great thread!


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## delphine (Aug 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
In California it's against the law. Yep, you read it right....against state legislation. Arnold signed a bill called the Healthy School Now Act that includes two bills in legislation. Teachers, and admin. are NOT allowed to give or sell candy and soda before, during, and an hour after school. Snacks sold at school must meet a certain criteria. No more soda machines. So teachers are not allowed to give candy, even one small starburst as a reward, ever. Where do you live?

I am not in California, but our school has the same policy. Even the school lunches follow a certain guideline (something to do with fat to calorie percentages). They also use only whole wheat bread/pizza crust etc and they don't deep fry anything.


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## Logan's mommy (Jan 19, 2007)

I live in Indiana and ds's school corp has this same policy on food guide lines, they've taken out the soda machines and everything and if you want to send a snack or treat for say a birthday party it has to be a healthy snack, no more cupcakes or candy. I don't know if the whole state is doing this or not.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Okay, now I'm going to be repetitive, but I'll repeat: it's unfair to punish children for things they have no control over.

I agree completely. DS1 used to get a lot of flack from his 1st grade teacher, because he was late a lot. He needed someone (me) to walk him to school, and our homelife was falling apart, and things were crazy. I was doing absolutely everything - my ex and I split up in April of that school year - including getting myself ready for work, getting my ex out of bed, and trying to get ds1 ready for school. I have trouble with punctuality, anyway - but that year was the absolute worst. DS1 was the one catching the brunt of it, even though I tried to explain to his teacher that _I_ was the one running late all the time. That's just not reasonable. It's not like he was old enough to make other arrangements!

Quote:

So I'll just say, if you've got to reward/punish, at least do it for things the children themselves can do something about.








:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have trouble with punctuality, anyway - but that year was the absolute worst. DS1 was the one catching the brunt of it, even though I tried to explain to his teacher that _I_ was the one running late all the time. That's just not reasonable. It's not like he was old enough to make other arrangements!











On the one hand, it seems like public school employees WANT parents to count on the schools for help and support -- but then there's this pulling the rug out from under the kids of the most stressed and needy parents.

When people say things like, "It doesn't matter if you're a SAHM or a WOHM (read, your personal circumstances don't matter) -- you still have the SAME responsibility to help your kids keep up with all this stuff" -- it communicates a total disregard of the fact that some parents are very, very stressed, pushed to the limit, simply not able to perform at a higher level at this time.

I don't even think it's fair to punish these parents for their painful situations, let alone punish the kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysmom2* 
I was reading an article about how new college grads are being given all kinds of rewards at work for showing up on time.

umm....wow. The only reward I ever expected (or received) for showing up at work on time was continued employment...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 









On the one hand, it seems like public school employees WANT parents to count on the schools for help and support -- but then there's this pulling the rug out from under the kids of the most stressed and needy parents.

When people say things like, "It doesn't matter if you're a SAHM or a WOHM (read, your personal circumstances don't matter) -- you still have the SAME responsibility to help your kids keep up with all this stuff" -- it communicates a total disregard of the fact that some parents are very, very stressed, pushed to the limit, simply not able to perform at a higher level at this time.

I don't even think it's fair to punish these parents for their painful situations, let alone punish the kids.

It was pretty crazy. He was bringing papers home at least four days a week - notices of fundraisers, notices of special events (Christmas concerts, "meet the teacher barbecue, etc.), Pizza day forms, field trip permission slips, etc. I felt absolutely buried. My MIL, who was doing our childcare when my ex worked, was always tidying up, and I work better with the "okay - that form was in this pile" approach. I had trouble finding anything. One of the reasons he's be late is that I'd suddenly realize it was Friday, and such-and-such permission slip had to be in today - and I had to find it. I can remember carrying ds1 on my shoulder, while I tried to walk as fast as I could to the school, to get him there in time, _and_ hopefully make my bus to work (I didn't have a set start time, but I did have a daily deadline, and the earlier I got there, the easier it was to meet).

Honestly - I look back on that year and have no idea how I even survived it (I was really ill, too - two courses of heavy duty antibiotics in less than two months...and I only saw the doctor when I got to the "dizzy, high fever, delirious and in pain" point.

I look back and I'm still boggled that ds1 was catching flack for being late...


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

Amen! Yeah that! Right on! Your all right...more and more the world seems backasswards to me.







: Commune living on a deserted island looks so enticing...I mean it! I'm getting so tired of swimming against the mainstream.







:


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
The problem is that it isn't just one starburst per week for one year of the child's life. Nearly everyone in a child's life feels the need to step in and "reward" them for things that occur naturally in their lives (dentists, doctors, teachers, babysitters, grandparents, aunts and uncles, and so on). What's wrong with a simple "congratulations" or "thank you, I appreciate your work"? Trust me, "reward junkies" are not truly content individuals when they grow up, and the world can definitely use some more people who aren't motivated by personal gain.

There ARE many things wrong with school systems, certainly, and one of the serious ones, imo, is the over-rewarding, over-training, and over-manipulating of small children. They aren't dogs, and even serious dog trainers know that you don't reward the animal every time it does a specific task -- the motivation wears off. So, practically speaking, it doesn't work, and ethically, it's more than sketchy. Anything can look perfectly innocent when taken out of its larger context.

I do understand what you're saying. I try to refrain from over-rewarding my son myself. But I still don't see anything wrong with what the teacher does. I think the bigger problem would be for the OP's child to be the ONLY one left out of the reward because she doesn't want him over-rewarded. Then he sees that everyone is doing their work, but he's the only one that doesn't get a reward.

I was rewarded PLENTY as a child. But I'm not screwed up from it. As you grow you learn that you do things because you have to, not to get a sucker, etc. It's part of growing up, imo.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm actually thinking -- even if a particular child has such an on-the-ball mom that he never forgets anything he needs for school -- it's probably just as harmful for him to see other children being punished (by being excluded from the reward), as it would be for him to be punished.

This is similar to the rationale that it's just as harmful to have to _see_ bullying, as it is to personally be a victim of bullying.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm actually thinking -- even if a particular child has such an on-the-ball mom that he never forgets anything he needs for school -- it's probably just as harmful for him to see other children being punished (by being excluded from the reward), as it would be for him to be punished.

This is similar to the rationale that it's just as harmful to have to _see_ bullying, as it is to personally be a victim of bullying.

Very good point!


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## Janansmom (Sep 14, 2007)

I have to agree...great point, Mammal_mama.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I do understand what you're saying. I try to refrain from over-rewarding my son myself. But I still don't see anything wrong with what the teacher does. I think the bigger problem would be for the OP's child to be the ONLY one left out of the reward because she doesn't want him over-rewarded. Then he sees that everyone is doing their work, but he's the only one that doesn't get a reward.

I was rewarded PLENTY as a child. But I'm not screwed up from it. As you grow you learn that you do things because you have to, not to get a sucker, etc. It's part of growing up, imo.

I see what you're saying, but the only reason that a child eventually needs to learn that you do things without getting a sucker is because the members of his/her community have taught him/her to expect the sucker in the first place. And, I had lots of junk food and soda while growing up, learned as I got older that it wasn't good for me, and I'm not screwed up from the experience. However, not everyone with the same experience would come out of it unscathed -- certainly I've met plenty of people with serious weight and health problems that stem largely from the habits that they were taught and/or allowed to develop as children.

I do agree w/you that the greater harm comes to the children who aren't rewarded, especially when they see that the children who ARE rewarded aren't doing anything particularly spectacular to get the reward. For instance, I think that we all have a very different feeling towards a person who works hard or who is particularly talented and receives some kind of reward/notice for their work, and those who get something for just showing up.

I also agree w/mammal mom's idea that the rewarded children are also harmed by watching the indirect punishment of the other children. They learn to accept the idea that some people win and some people lose, and that often the reasons are arbitrary. While this may be true practically speaking in the world that we live in, we shouldn't prepare our children to accept this as just.

Often, I think that the whole idea of rewards/punishments represents our distrust of children, and of other people in general. Like a pp, I would rather that we "celebrate" with our children rather than reward them.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Not thrilled but not outraged. I'd probably ask the teacher to just use praise and thanks rather than a food reward.


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## TekknixMom (Nov 5, 2007)

*hasn't read all comments*

I personally would have something to say about it, not because I don't want my son to have treats but because if it weren't for the eggs I can't get him to give up he would be a vegan. I don't want him having those candies because they contain gelatin, not to mention I'm pretty sure they have artificial dyes which we try to avoid.

As for the candy itself, and veganism aside, I think treats are okay as just that...treats. I don't like the idea of it being every single week. I would honestly be worried about my child starting to feel as if everytime they did something I asked them to that they would get some kind of treat for a reward. It may not happen, but I just wouldn't want to have to even be faced with the situation.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

In an age of insanely prevelant food allergies in kids (where you've got peanut-free classrooms, special lunch tables, etc.), I can't imagine the school giving out food to kids.

My kid wouldn't be able to have the starburst b/c of food allergies.

But he'd likely be the kid who would remember that folder every single time (and like Pat said, it wouldn't be for the treat, b/c he gets that whenever he wants).

And even if he got something different. It'd still be DIFFERENT. And he'd probably feel bad about that.

I think the reward part is gar-bage (but that's school, and that ain't gonna change anytime soon, I imagine), but I think it's far weirder that the school's employees are feeding kids in a day of hugely varying diets (allergies, religious reasons, vegan, veggies, etc.). Seems really antiquated.


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