# S/O: Anon poll about your kids being gay



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

You can say more about your vote in a post, but don't feel obligated.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

you're slow


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
you're slow

















:


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

As long as they're happy.... I'm good


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Hm. I want to know more from "other."


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Hm. I want to know more from "other."

me too


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

are you including bi in gay? I think I'd say between thrilled and non-plussed.


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## KellMcK (Jun 29, 2007)

I voted "nonplussed." I really hope that by the time my DD is old enough to start dating and/or choose a partner, it really won't be a big deal as to who she chooses or why she made her choice.

It's my sincerest hope that we get to a point in the future where there won't be any pejorative connotations to any sexual orientation. I'm sure that must sound totally naive, but hey, that's my hope.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
are you including bi in gay? I think I'd say between thrilled and non-plussed.

Yeah, I used "gay" as an umbrella term. I'm old.


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## lucysmom (Oct 17, 2004)

Just ... "nonplussed" means "taken aback." So even though "as long as they're happy ..." was my answer, it was hard to vote "nonplussed," because I wouldn't be.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucysmom* 
Just ... "nonplussed" means "taken aback." So even though "as long as they're happy ..." was my answer, it was hard to vote "nonplussed," because I wouldn't be.

Yeah, in proper terms it means surprised, taken aback. But in American common usage it means not bothered.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
Yeah, in proper terms it means surprised, taken aback. But in American common usage it means not bothered.

Sorry about that--I was intending the second use and I can't edit the poll.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I voted "okay". I honestly believe as long as my kids are happy, but I fear how they would be treated if they were gay. I remember being told over and over and over again "Don't let others bring you down because your fat". Well everytime someone made a horrible comment about me being fat, it really felt like a knife right to the heart. I would cry and cry. I just want my kids to have an easy upbringing. I don't want them to get made fun of. Of course I would teach them to carry themselves high and not worry about what others think, but that didn't work for me.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

I voted the 3rd option.


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## OwensMa (Apr 15, 2004)

Thanks for the poll.







, says I in a nonplussed sort of way.


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## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

i have 3 boys. i could care less if 2 turned out gay. i want at least one strait child who will give my a grandbaby, preferable a girl. i'm not that demanding am i?

i REALLY hope DH never sees this. he and i are very different on this topic. he doesn't want any of our children to be gay.

i would be a little upset if the day ever comes that they sit me down and reveal to me, but i would not be upset at them. it would be more of an upset for them. not that my DH would condem them or tell them they are no longer in the family. Just because i know he would be disapointed.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

I voted "as long as they're happy".

But I want to move towards "thrilled".

I have always told my ds that if he gets married it might be to a woman or to a man. I think that he is gay and I want him to feel accepted unconditionally.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Nonplussed.







(I like that word.)


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i have 3 boys. i could care less if 2 turned out gay. i want at least one strait child who will give my a grandbaby, preferable a girl.

My cousin, R, is gay. He and his partner have a four-year old son and recently adopted newborn twins. Gay doesn't equal "nonparent."


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## PGNPORTLAND (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i have 3 boys. i could care less if 2 turned out gay. i want at least one strait child who will give my a grandbaby, preferable a girl. i'm not that demanding am i?

i REALLY hope DH never sees this. he and i are very different on this topic. he doesn't want any of our children to be gay.

i would be a little upset if the day ever comes that they sit me down and reveal to me, but i would not be upset at them. it would be more of an upset for them. not that my DH would condem them or tell them they are no longer in the family. Just because i know he would be disapointed.

Gay People Have Kids!!!


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i have 3 boys. i could care less if 2 turned out gay. i want at least one strait child who will give my a grandbaby, preferable a girl. i'm not that demanding am i?

As frog said...why would being gay = no kids?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
My cousin, R, is gay. He and his partner have a four-year old son and recently adopted newborn twins. Gay doesn't equal "nonparent."

Gay couples can't adopt (nor foster) in Utah. Just FTR.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Gay couples can't adopt (nor foster) in Utah. Just FTR.

But we can get knocked up in any state of the union.

Well, theoretically, anyway. <glares at own chart>


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## ian'smommaya (Jun 7, 2004)

ohhh i would be so happy. so happy. straight, gay, bi, trannie. i wouldnt be sad with any of it.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It was a touch choice between the first two for me. I ultimately chose non plussed.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I chose nonpulssed as well, but am actually sitting a hair towards thrilled.

A fence-sitter, me? NO WAY!!


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## davi (Jan 28, 2007)

i hope my grrls are instilled with a greater sense of self-worth than the capacity & functionality of their uterus.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *davi* 
i hope my grrls are instilled with a greater sense of self-worth than the capacity & functionality of their uterus.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

You know, it would depend. I think if I had a daughter, I'd be thrilled if she were a lesbian, and if I had a son, I'd be happier if he were straight. Why? To keep both of them out of the hands of abusive men.


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## davi (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
You know, it would depend. I think if I had a daughter, I'd be thrilled if she were a lesbian, and if I had a son, I'd be happier if he were straight. Why? To keep both of them out of the hands of abusive men.

i hear that.


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## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
My cousin, R, is gay. He and his partner have a four-year old son and recently adopted newborn twins. Gay doesn't equal "nonparent."

i realize this, and i am sure i will make just about everyone unhappy with my response. i would want a grandchild by nature. i am very open to just about anything, so please don't jump down my throat about that. that is my opinion and no matter what is said i won't change it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PGNPORTLAND* 
Gay People Have Kids!!!









I know, my cousin and his partner have 2.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
As frog said...why would being gay = no kids?

i never said that, people are assuming

Quote:


Originally Posted by *davi* 
i hope my grrls are instilled with a greater sense of self-worth than the capacity & functionality of their uterus.

is that directed to me?


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

I voted option 2. I realy have no stake in either of my childrens sexuality. I think part of the joy of dicovering ones sexual identity is that your mother is not involved. kwim?

When I was pregnant with ds I kept having dreams about the baby where he was dressed in boys clothes and we were refering to him as "he" but when I changed his diaper there was a vulva and "he" was obviously a girl. Part of me wonders if this means that he will discover that he is transgendered at some point. Of corse it's probably just a dream but I've spent a lot of time exploring my feelings about having a transgenders gay or bi child.

Ultimatly I just want him to be comfortable in his own skin.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i realize this, and i am sure i will make just about everyone unhappy with my response. *i would want a grandchild by nature.* i am very open to just about anything, so please don't jump down my throat about that. that is my opinion and no matter what is said i won't change it.

Being gay doesn't preclude that, either.


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## Mrs.Bufford (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
You know, it would depend. I think if I had a daughter, I'd be thrilled if she were a lesbian, and if I had a son, I'd be happier if he were straight. Why? To keep both of them out of the hands of abusive men.

Yup. That is the eloquent version of what I said in the other thread.


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

_I'd rather they were straight - but whatever_

I am happy as long as my kids are happy, it is really okay with me if they are gay, straight or somewhere in between.

However, the rest of the world and our family won't feel that way so I would rather they were straight because I think being straight would be easier for them. My youngest son is Asian and he will likely already have to deal with racism, I'd hate for him to have to deal with people hating him for being gay as well.

ETA: I think it wold break my heart if he was transgendered only because it seems like such a difficult road. Knowing my child was uncomfortable in their own body and there was nothing I could do about it would be devastating.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i realize this, and i am sure i will make just about everyone unhappy with my response. i would want a grandchild by nature. i am very open to just about anything, so please don't jump down my throat about that. that is my opinion and no matter what is said i won't change it.

Gee, I sure hope your kids don't struggle with infertility and have to disappoint your criteria of wanting a "natural" grandchild. Ay yi yi.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
You know, it would depend. I think if I had a daughter, I'd be thrilled if she were a lesbian, and if I had a son, I'd be happier if he were straight. Why? To keep both of them out of the hands of abusive men.

I'm not sure that would work. Abusive men don't target only people who are sexually attracted to them. I have been abused by several men, none of whom was I dating, sexually attracted to, or in any way romantically involved with. You don't need to be romantically involved with an abuser to be abused. You just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

You are far more likely to be abused by someone you are in a relationship with.

And it's not just actual abuse, either. I wouldn't wish any of the baggage and bs that comes with partnering with men on my kids.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It was a touch choice between the first two for me. I ultimately chose non plussed.

I think I just did this in another thread, but you keep speaking for me








Exactly what you said.

In regards to grandchildren, I don't give a hoot if I have them or don't or where they come from if I do have any.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

For me, I would be happy if they were true to themselves in their sexuality and followed whichever path(s) fullfilled them, whatever that might be.

And any partner(s) who makes my childs heart full will always be welcome in my life.

I just really, really want them to be happy.

Oh, so I voted option #2









Take care,
Tara


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## Katie Bugs Mama (Feb 1, 2004)

I voted "non-plussed," even though I wouldn't actually be shocked/confused/dumbfounded, which is what the word means to me. The only reason that I didn't vote "thrilled" is because I can't imagine caring that much about dd's sexual orientation. I wouldn't be "thrilled" if she were gay, straight, bi, ect. I would just be accepting.

ETA: DH would definitely vote "thrilled" if he read MDC. He vastly prefers women to men (as friends, not simply as sexual partners) and has real problems with the idea of his little girl ever being in a relationship with a man. He's going to be _really_ hard on any boy/man that dd brings home.


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## elspethshimon (Nov 23, 2007)

I am somewhere between nonplussed and thrilled so I chose "thrilled."

I made the decision a long time ago that there will be no "coming out" in my household. I fully intend on raising my children in a home that recognizes and accepts the legitimacy of all forms of sexual expression (between consenting individuals, of course) whether it is straight, gay, bisexual, or just a matter of curiosity. We will also talk openly about the discrimination, hostility, and hatred that exists so that they will be prepared for a world that is not as accepting as the atmosphere in their home.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Option #2. I will be "thrilled" if dd grows up to have a strong sense of her sexual self, respects herself and others and has healthy, safe relationships. Gender/orientation/identification aren't a non-issue.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katie Bugs Mama* 
I voted "non-plussed," even though I wouldn't actually be shocked/confused/dumbfounded, which is what the word means to me. The only reason that I didn't vote "thrilled" is because I can't imagine caring that much about dd's sexual orientation. I wouldn't be "thrilled" if she were gay, straight, bi, ect. I would just be accepting.

This is exactly how I feel. This is sort of one of those things that just.. is. There's nothing to happy, excited, angry, confused, whatever over. It just is. The important thing is that she's happy, loved, supported and accepted. And she is.









I haven't been in TAO in a few days, but can someone point me in the direction of the thread that this spun off of?


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Nearly 8% of voters feel that being gay is wrong? I'm surprised.


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## boodafli (May 28, 2005)

i chose thrilled. it'll mean all the late night indoctrination with ani and the indigo grrls paid off.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I'd rather they be straight but whatever I wouldn't cry stress or get upset about it, that's just not me.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kamilla626* 
Nearly 8% of voters feel that being gay is wrong? I'm surprised.

I suspect the percentage here is actually quite a bit higher than that, honestly, so I'm surprised, too.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
I wouldn't wish any of the baggage and bs that comes with partnering with men on my kids.

Here we go with the blanket man-hating statements.







Some of the nastiest people I've ever had the displeasure of knowing were women, but I wouldn't go so far as to wish a certain sexual orientation on my child to avoid "the baggage and BS that comes with partnering with women".

I don't want my child to be hurt by bad *PEOPLE*.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

That's ridiculous. If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.

I don't make this stuff up.


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## MiaPia (Aug 28, 2003)

I voted "nonplussed" (and I take nonplussed to mean "I don't care and I'm not shocked.").
Honestly, I kind of giggled at the "thrilled" answer, because I put it in the context of "Would I be _thrilled_ if I discover my children are all straight?" Heck no! It wouldn't occur to me to be "thrilled" at the sexual preference of my kids any more than it would occur to me to be "thrilled" with what color hair they ended up with, or if they were right vs. left handed. It is what it is.

PS - Totally NOT making fun of the poll. Just the context my own twisted brain put it in.







:


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It was a touch choice between the first two for me. I ultimately chose non plussed.

Me too.

I would be happy with whatever.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
I think I just did this in another thread, but you keep speaking for me








Exactly what you said.

In regards to grandchildren, I don't give a hoot if I have them or don't or where they come from if I do have any.

Glad to be of service.


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Option #2.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
That's ridiculous. If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.

I don't make this stuff up.

Not ALL men have baggage, and not ALL men are full of BS. Not all men are bad. Period.

Your blanket statement was offensive to me. Please don't call me ridiculous for it either.


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## ani'smama (Nov 12, 2004)

Definitely "nonplussed"


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
That's ridiculous. If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.

I don't make this stuff up.

You might not be make it up, but you seem to try and skew the information.

My sister is gay. She hasn't chosen the best partners... (which I believe she'd have that issue no matter what her sexuality) She's been beaten. She's been violated. She's been made to feel shameful about her body. She's been beaten down by verbal abuse.

Being gay does not preclude you from being in abusive relationships.

Not all men are abusive. Not all women are loving and nurturing. Some folks, men OR women are just asshats.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

As long as she's happy, I'm happy.


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## mom2avasteph (May 6, 2005)

I voted other. I wouldn't be angry or upset. I would want my daughters to be happy. I just think it might come as a surprise to me at first, although that's not the word I'm searching for. As long as they are happy, I'm happy.


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## MiaPia (Aug 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
That's ridiculous. If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.

I don't make this stuff up.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Not ALL men have baggage, and not ALL men are full of BS. Not all men are bad. Period.

Your blanket statement was offensive to me. Please don't call me ridiculous for it either.


I agree with N.of 60 - I hate blanket statements of ANY sort.

I have 2 sisters. One is gay and one is hetero. Both are in long-term relationships (as am I - I am in a hetero one). My hetero sister and I both are partnered with very loving, very considerate, very pro-woman _MEN_.

My gay sister, sadly, is partnered with someone (a _woman_ obviously) who is emotionally abusive and manipulative - I have even posted about it here on TAO.

So no, blanket statements do not always work.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
I wouldn't wish any of the baggage and bs that comes with partnering with men on my kids.

Seeing as men are aprox. half the world's population, I'd say that you should try to meet a wider variety of men. Sounds like you've had some nasty luck.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiaPia* 
Totally NOT making fun of the poll.

Oh, you can totally make fun of it. I was in a weird mood when I put it together. I'm like that.


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## TheDivineMissE (Mar 31, 2006)

What my kids do with their sex lives are none of my business. So I didn't answer thrilled as gay, straight, or otherwise it doesn't matter to me. They are who they are and I love them for that.







My answer was nonplussed (or indifferent, as I am interpreting it).


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyD* 
Seeing as men are aprox. half the world's population, I'd say that you should try to meet a wider variety of men. Sounds like you've had some nasty luck.

I don't think that's fair.

Maybe it's not AO's luck that's the issue, but the very low expectations most women have of men.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Maybe it's not AO's luck that's the issue, but the very low expectations most women have of men.

So, it's not that all men aren't bad, is that the women liking them just have low expectations?

Um, I don't think that's a very fair statement, either.







:


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
You know, it would depend. I think if I had a daughter, I'd be thrilled if she were a lesbian, and if I had a son, I'd be happier if he were straight. Why? To keep both of them out of the hands of abusive men.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
You are far more likely to be abused by someone you are in a relationship with.

And it's not just actual abuse, either. I wouldn't wish any of the baggage and bs that comes with partnering with men on my kids.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Here we go with the blanket man-hating statements.







Some of the nastiest people I've ever had the displeasure of knowing were women, but I wouldn't go so far as to wish a certain sexual orientation on my child to avoid "the baggage and BS that comes with partnering with women".

I don't want my child to be hurt by bad *PEOPLE*.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
That's ridiculous. If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.

I don't make this stuff up.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Not ALL men have baggage, and not ALL men are full of BS. Not all men are bad. Period.

Your blanket statement was offensive to me. Please don't call me ridiculous for it either.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
You might not be make it up, but you seem to try and skew the information.

My sister is gay. She hasn't chosen the best partners... (which I believe she'd have that issue no matter what her sexuality) She's been beaten. She's been violated. She's been made to feel shameful about her body. She's been beaten down by verbal abuse.

Being gay does not preclude you from being in abusive relationships.

Not all men are abusive. Not all women are loving and nurturing. Some folks, men OR women are just asshats.












































:















enough enough enough enough enough !!!!
We already know that some members think that having a penis automatically makes someone a big fat juicy abusive jerkwad. Statistically speaking, macro speaking, of course. It's not just getting old, it is old. Really, really dang friggen old. Let's just not go there anymore. Please, I beg.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boodafli* 
i chose thrilled. it'll mean all the late night indoctrination with ani and the indigo grrls paid off.









And now I'm off to listen to Chickenman over and over until it leaves my head.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

nonplussed.....they are who they are...


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

I voted #2.

OK, If I'm being completely honest, I would be a teeny-weeny-itty-bitty bit sad if they also decided not to have kids..... because I really want to spoil grandkids someday. But I'd get over that.

As long as they're happy and are surrounded by people who love them, I don't care about their sexuality much at all.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
So, it's not that all men aren't bad, is that the women liking them just have low expectations?

Um, I don't think that's a very fair statement, either.







:

I know. That was intentional.

Sorry--I'll stay out of it. I just hate to see AO dragged through the muck for something that isn't actually true (that she's just had "bad luck" with men).


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
I just hate to see AO dragged through the muck for something that isn't actually true (that she's just had "bad luck" with men).

Is sexual preference alone enough to make a person dislike an entire gender? Just because I'm sexually attracted men doesn't by default make women scum of the earth.

And yet, if the tables were turned and I made a comment about not wanting my child having to deal with [insert whatever stereotypical anti-lesbian comment here] from partnering with a woman, OMG, I think MDC would implode.

I don't dig gender bashing, from either side of the coin.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I said other for myriad reasons. It's certainly nowhere near the worst thing I can imagine my kids coming to me with, but I wouldn't be dancing for joy and high-fiving them, either. I'll love them no matter who they love and they and any partners they have are always welcome in our home. I don't think I'd let them room together if they stayed the night, just as I wouldn't let unmarried hetero kids room together.

FWIW, my mother's a lesbiand and is still heart-broken my brother is gay. She knows first hand what it means for his life and how he'll be treated and she still hopes someday he'll "change his mind" or at least be bi. I think people assume that GLB are always thrilled if their kids are also GLB and that's not always true.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
I don't think that's fair.

Maybe it's not AO's luck that's the issue, but the very low expectations most women have of men.

That's seriously whacked. Low expectations? I have really high expectations of men, and I've still dealt with total a-holes. Way to put it on the women.









Read further...

It's not fair that I said AO had bad luck, but slagging a whole gender is okay? I've met just as many crazy women as I have shitty men. People are people. Some suck, some don't.







And I'm dragging AO's comments through the muck, because they're ridiculous. She obviously doesn't have a son.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Is sexual preference alone enough to make a person dislike an entire gender? Just because I'm sexually attracted men doesn't by default make women scum of the earth.

And yet, if the tables were turned and I made a comment about not wanting my child having to deal with [insert whatever stereotypical anti-lesbian comment here] from partnering with a woman, OMG, I think MDC would implode.

I don't dig gender bashing, from either side of the coin.

It seems odd to me to wish a particular sexual preference on a child with the intent of preventing them from.... doing more housework? (of course as someone who doesn't necessarily believe that housework should be divided 50/50, this is more difficult for me to understand than it would be for someone who is adamant about "equal" division of labor, I realize).

But then again, different things are important to different people, and our children will make their own choices, of partner and everything else.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

Oh my...

OK, first, not that it should make any difference, but to be clear: I am partnered with a man.

Secondly, the points I made about men being statistically more likely to be abusers stands, regardless of anybody here and their particular anecdote. No matter what you think, it is true that a person (woman or man) partnering with a woman is less likely to be abused than a person (woman or man) partnering with a man. Look it up if you think I'm delusional.

Third, I don't have a particular personal reason to be "man-hating." I've actually had pretty good relationships with men, all told. That doesn't change the facts about how men AS A CLASS behave in the society in which I live, though. And I do have a stake in being honest about the class politics of gender, and if you are all offended by my being honest about those class politics, I think that's your issue, not mine.

Finally, I reiterate my first statement--I would feel more comfortable with my child, regardless of gender, partnering with a woman versus a man. This is due to the decreased likelihood that partnering would end with my child being abused or treated poorly. Which isn't to say there is no chance that would happen in a partnership with a woman, but that there is LESS chance.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I voted #2, but don't care for the negative conotations I think of by the word "nonplussed".

I don't care one way or another as long as they have a bunch of grandbabies for me to spoil.









And wow. I'm amazed at how many voted they'd be angry or disappointed. Really? That's upsetting.


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

Other...

Nonplussed means confused or bewildered, and I wouldn't be. If he's happy and healthy, in a relationship with someone who loves and cherishes him, I'd be thrilled that he found love; just as much as I would be if he were in love with a wonderful woman.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

I kind of suprised myself when I answered okay. I am bi myself, so I definitely don't have a problem with someone being gay. But if I'm being perfectly honest, I'd rather my child be straight just because it's easier. No worries about being hated or harassed or denied rights for being gay. No dealing with family members deciding he's not part of the family anymore because he's gay. None of that crap.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I will be happy for them to be loved and cared for by gentle kind people who they love no matter the gender. I would be a little concerned about glbt rights and hate crimes, but I would be happy for my girls to find love with a caring responsible person who returned that love whole heartedly.


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## rinnerin (Feb 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boodafli* 
i chose thrilled. it'll mean all the late night indoctrination with ani and the indigo grrls paid off.









Ok, this is actully why I kinda sort want my DS to be straight. All the Ani, Indigo Girls, and Sleater-Kinney he will hear over the years just won't have the same impact if he's gay.








:

Actually, I don't care, I just want him to be happy.
And know all the words to Out of Habit. Is that wrong?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I said "other," because I really don't care at all. I suspect she'll be bi or queer on some level, just cause my anecdotal evidence is that kid's raised in queer positive homes and communities tend to have more flexible sexuality and gender id than not...

like my friends with queer parents, many of them id as queer, even though a good handful of them still date different gender people.

but, it just don't matter to me.


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## flminivanmama (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom* 
i would want a grandchild by nature.

so if your one child that was straight (in your first response) turned out to infertile...?? what then? is IVF nature? is adoption nature?

sigh

for myself I'm thrilled if they are happy. how's that?


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

I voted non-plussed. Like I said in the other thread, I'd rather she was a liberal, hippy-dippy queer than a religious conservative. cuz ya know, we would have nothing to talk about then.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyD* 
That's seriously whacked. Low expectations? I have really high expectations of men, and I've still dealt with total a-holes. Way to put it on the women.









Did you see where I said that it was an intentionally unfair comment that I made? I'm guessing not.


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## boodafli (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rinnerin* 
Ok, this is actully why I kinda sort want my DS to be straight. All the Ani, Indigo Girls, and Sleater-Kinney he will hear over the years just won't have the same impact if he's gay.








:

Actually, I don't care, I just want him to be happy.
And know all the words to Out of Habit. Is that wrong?

i know, right? i pretty much use the ani songbook as lullabyes. my kid is almost 3, and she can totally sing the refrains for little plastic castle, both hands, and swing. oh, and closer to fine, least complicated, and get out the map.

this is primarily b/c at 4 in the damn morning, all i can recall are the refrains.







:


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I havent followed this thread, but I voted i dont care just want them to be happy.

That said, I would be concerned for them if they were gay because, if things dont change in this world, they are going to have quite a harder life being gay than straight.

(The "white privelage" discussion comes to mind. There is definatly a "straight privelage" in this country...or world.)


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## nikag (Sep 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
Secondly, the points I made about men being statistically more likely to be abusers stands, regardless of anybody here and their particular anecdote. No matter what you think, it is true that a person (woman or man) partnering with a woman is less likely to be abused than a person (woman or man) partnering with a man. Look it up if you think I'm delusional.

To my knowledge, the reason data is skewed in 'favor' of men in this situation, is because women are more apt to report abuse.

Relationship abuse is perpetuated by women against men all the time. It takes the form of verbal/emotional abuse most often (yelling/screaming, demeaning, putting down, name calling, etc.) but it also often takes the form of covert physical abuse (destruction of property, threats, throwing objects across the room - intimidation).

There are plenty of men in abusive relationships with women. But because of cultural stigma/gender role association, they are MUCH less likely to speak out about it.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
Secondly, the points I made about men being statistically more likely to be abusers stands, regardless of anybody here and their particular anecdote. No matter what you think, it is true that a person (woman or man) partnering with a woman is less likely to be abused than a person (woman or man) partnering with a man. Look it up if you think I'm delusional.

Just googling, but all I could find were (a) reports showing straight, gay, and lesbian relationships to all have about an equal percent chance of including domestic violence, or (b) statements that statistics on lesbian domestic violence are not extensive enough to draw any specific conclusions. Nothing saying women partnered with women are statistically less likely to be in an abusive relationship. I'm left curious what you've read otherwise?


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Not sure how to vote.
With regards only to how I feel about it, I would feel exactly the same as I would feel if they were straight. Either straight or gay is perfectly fine!
But out of concern for my child, I would rather them be straight. We have gay/transgendered friends and life has been, at times, immensely difficult for them because of it.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Not sure how to vote.
With regards only to how I feel about it, I would feel exactly the same as I would feel if they were straight. Either straight or gay is perfectly fine!
But out of concern for my child, I would rather them be straight. We have gay/transgendered friends and life has been, at times, immensely difficult for them because of it.


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## SevenVeils (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for this poll, frog









I said "thrilled". I didn't address that in the other thread because I lack faith in my ability to explain coherently.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Dh and I would both be totally cool and supportive.







If our child faces additional challenges because of his/her sexual orientation, we'll be supportive.

I do NOT have a preference and while I would have some concerns for him/her regarding the challenges/stigma/discrimination/unequal rights gays/queers currently deal with, I would not say that I would rather they weren't gay/queer because of this. I would rather the world shaped up, and I'll do (and am doing) my part to make that dream a reality.

It would no more be a disappointment than it would be to by some freak of genetics give birth to a child that had dark skin (dh and I are both light-skinned). It would still be something to celebrate because it is an integral part of that child, that person, and I would not want him/her to feel disappointment (from within or from me/dh) in being who they are. It is the rest of the world's responsibility, and our responsibility as members of it, to insist that all people be treated with respect and equality.

Uh, stepping of my soapbox.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Torn, because in this world being gay is harder.

I'm hoping to live on the West coast which is generally pretty tolerant, but who knows?

I wouldn't care about my child being gay, per se, but it would make me more worried for them.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
I voted non-plussed. Like I said in the other thread, I'd rather she was a liberal, hippy-dippy queer than a religious conservative. cuz ya know, we would have nothing to talk about then.









Or too much to talk about.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Trying to keep my mouth shut about men. But I agree with those who expressed relief at the idea of said children maybe not having to be intimately involved. I have known some great men. Some awesome men. My father, my grandfathers, my one male cousin. At least one of whom might be gay.

But seriously, I don't blame them for being men to begin with, and what _generally_ comes with that, it is just in their genes. They have evolved the unfortunate ones to be predetermined towards that kind of thing.

Andy Thomson, physiological anthropologist, talked about it this year. It is actually a talk leading toward suicide terrorism but he goes into some of his other stuff about the evolution of men in it. (this is just part 1 of three parts, if you dig make sure to go on to the next two parts...)






I know, sorry for going back to the negativity.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

My kids' sexuality is none of my business. If they are happy and leading productive lives of their choice, I will be happy.


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## nikag (Sep 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangebird* 
Trying to keep my mouth shut about men. But I agree with those who expressed relief at the idea of said children maybe not having to be intimately involved. I have known some great men. Some awesome men. My father, my grandfathers, my one male cousin. At least one of whom might be gay.

But seriously, I don't blame them for being men to begin with, and what _generally_ comes with that, it is just in their genes. They have evolved the unfortunate ones to be predetermined towards that kind of thing.

Andy Thomson, physiological anthropologist, talked about it this year. It is actually a talk leading toward suicide terrorism but he goes into some of his other stuff about the evolution of men in it. (this is just part 1 of three parts, if you dig make sure to go on to the next two parts...)






I know, sorry for going back to the negativity.

http://www.batteredmen.com/gjdvsto1.htm

It isn't just in 'their' genes.


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## rinnerin (Feb 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boodafli* 
this is primarily b/c at 4 in the damn morning, all i can recall are the refrains.







:









:

This is precisly why my DS knows all the words to "Sun Comes Up, It's Tuesday Morning" by Cowboy Junkies. He even corrects me when I try to make the song less, uh, adult. It's the only song I can remember at 3am.

Thank goddess I can't remember "Cheap is How I Feel"









/back to the previosly scheduled thread


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

I chose the "Okay, but I'd rather they were straight" option. I didn't choose it because I think being straight is better. I just think that being straight is probably easier, at least for now and the immediately foreseeable future. I want DD to have the happiest life possible and I think being gay might cause her undue pain in our society.

That said, if she's gay, she's gay. She's still DD and it changes nothing. I'll support her 200% in every way and everything.


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

just to throw in some positive gay male stuff









here is a review of one of my favorite books, "The Soul Beneath the Skin"

Quote:

He identifies seven patterns of behaviour that are common across the gay men's community, but which are almost never acknowledged:

- an extremely low level of public violence;
- high rates of altruistic behaviour;
- robust sexual caretaking;
- friendship patterns of diffuse intimacies;
- friendships with women;
- diverse forms of sexual union;
- and unique forms of bliss and pleasure-seeking (not just sexual)


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
Yeah, in proper terms it means surprised, taken aback. But in American common usage it means not bothered.

Oh wow, I really didn't know that. I thought it meant the opposite, like "put out" or kind of a confused kind of unsettled feeling. I had no idea it could mean that you *weren't* bothered by something. :: giggle :: Glad to know I'm still learning.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'd fine with it. And actually, I don't talk to my children as if I assume they will grow up straight, and my sister didn't with her children either. My daughter has said at least one time that she might end up being gay. My sister's oldest child is 22 now, and there were times when he was growing up when we wondered if he might turn out to be gay, but that appears not to be the case.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

My children are my children. I love and honor them completely for the people they are; the people whom they love won't affect that a bit.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:

He identifies seven patterns of behaviour that are common across the gay men's community, but which are almost never acknowledged:

- an extremely low level of public violence;
- high rates of altruistic behaviour;
- robust sexual caretaking;
- friendship patterns of diffuse intimacies;
- friendships with women;
- diverse forms of sexual union;
- and unique forms of bliss and pleasure-seeking (not just sexual)
OK now *I* want to be a gay male.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
OK now *I* want to be a gay male.











Yeah, I could use some better sexual caretaking and some more friendships with females.


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## SevenVeils (Aug 28, 2006)

I must be super naive, because I honestly thought that with some (heartbreaking) exceptions, it is not 'hard to be gay' anymore. Maybe I've just lived in some very liberal areas and assume that most places are that way.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, I'd start here for basic facts. But really, if you are invested in believing that domestic violence is perpetrated by women as much as men, or that men suffer from it as much as women do, it's highly unlikely that anything that I can point you to is going to change your mind.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skyastara* 
I must be super naive, because I honestly thought that with some (heartbreaking) exceptions, it is not 'hard to be gay' anymore. Maybe I've just lived in some very liberal areas and assume that most places are that way.

I'm not sure if my experience is representative, either.

But where I am (NC), it is still unfortunately very common to hear even the college crowd say things like "that's so gay," etc.

Definitely nowhere near "neutral" on being gay, although you're at least a little more likely these days to see one of those college kids turn a little red and say, "Sorry, Joe," if Joe Gay Guy is within earshot.


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## Evenstar (Sep 20, 2007)

voted nonplussed... whatever makes them happy









I would be apprehensive for them because of bullying or other ways of being made to feel ashamed for it. We are raising them Catholic and this is one issue on which I verge from the Church. I would NOT want them feeling wrong or bad for being who they are and no matter what their sexuality, I will teach them that being gay is not wrong or bad, despite what the Church says. /ramble off

eta: just reread my post. I'm sorry


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## 2 in August (Jan 6, 2006)

I'd be ok with it. I think life would be easier if they were straight, but life isn't always easy. We (dh, me and kids) live a life right now that lots of people wouldn't think is easy, but we are happy and that's what matters. Same with my kids. I just want them to be happy and true to themselves. If that includes something other that being hetero, so be it.


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama* 
I chose nonpulssed as well, but am actually sitting a hair towards thrilled.

A fence-sitter, me? NO WAY!!









That's the way I feel too. I think. If I was being totally honest, I'd probably say more thrilled. But I don't know that that's right, y'know? I should feel the same, either way. I guess I feel like I'd relate to her better, or something.
I don't know.









When it comes down to it, though, I really don't care. True happiness is what's important, period.


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## MujerMamaMismo (Oct 28, 2005)

I kinda wish I were partnered and parenting with a man so that I could be that queer positive mama whose gay kid didn't have to come out in any formal sense. As it is, I'll probably be that radical **** mama whose kid has to come out as a heterosexual, conservative Christian...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
Well, I'd start here for basic facts. But really, if you are invested in believing that domestic violence is perpetrated by women as much as men, or that men suffer from it as much as women do, it's highly unlikely that anything that I can point you to is going to change your mind.









... which is why I didn't bother engaging in the debate. I find it too distressing and lose all my coherent thought and ability to articulate intelligent ideas.


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## mommyddeville (Nov 28, 2005)

I voted 'other.' Really, I would be sad because they would have a much more difficult life here. This area is very conservative, and anyone who is different is definitely persecuted. For their own ease, I'd like them to fit in.

But, I'll love and support them whatever they are. . . straight, gay, purple, anything.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I voted #2. But also, sort of #1.


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## JoyNChrist (Oct 24, 2006)

I voted #3 - I'd be okay with it, but I'd rather they were straight.

For me personally, it wouldn't matter at all. At all. But considering my family and my community, I have to say that being straight would be so much easier, both for me and my son.

I live in a rural southern community where homosexuality is definitely taboo and generally looked upon as unnatural and "wrong". If one of my children were gay, it would be considered shameful both for the child and for me and my DH. I also know that most of our family members would not have anything to do with the homosexual child again. I hate that. You have no idea how much I hate that. But that, unfortunately, is the way it is.

I also know that my DH would be heartbroken if our son turned out gay. He would never say it, and he would never treat him any differently, but I know he wouldn't like it. He was raised with many prejudices and a very limited worldview, and while he's come a long way since we've been together, I still think it would bother him greatly if one of his children was homosexual, especially a son. I don't want him or my child to have to deal with that.

Having said all that, no matter what path my children choose, they are my children and I'll love them and support them. But it is my hope that they are all straight, although I'll never try to sway them that way or infer that being gay is wrong.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Doesn't matter to me either way.


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## redpajama (Jan 22, 2007)

I voted #2--that it didn't matter to me one-way-or-the-other, but if I could have voted *in between* #1 and #2, I would have.

It's not that I *want* my kids to be queer--I really don't care. But I'm really crazy about my kids, and I'm really proud of each new thing I learn about them. And if you told me right now that one or both of them would be queer, I wouldn't be disappointed, but I wouldn't just be "okay," either. I'd be really excited to know this new thing about my kids, and I'd be really proud of that thing--even if it shouldn't really be any matter of "pride" for me. It's sort of like being proud of my babies' birthweights, or being proud of the way my son's hair sticks straight up if it is cut even moderately-short. Nothing to be "proud" of (or disappointed by), really, but just thinking about these "details" that make my kids individuals makes me really proud.

So I don't *want* my kids to be left-handed, but if one (or both) were, I would think that was really interesting and unique, and I would love that about them. And I'd be equally excited and proud if one of them were queer.

For what it's worth, it seems like some of the most interesting people I've known have been left-handed, and most of my closest, dearest friends have been queer.

And...if my child(ren) should turn out to be both gay AND left-handed...why, that's a recipe for success if _I've_ ever heard one.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redpajama* 
And...if my child(ren) should turn out to be both gay AND left-handed...why, that's a recipe for success if _I've_ ever heard one.









That's turtle! And she's the most amazing person I've ever known.







(I love it that that little dude uses her left hand for the thumbs up...)


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## redpajama (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
That's turtle! And she's the most amazing person I've ever known.







(I love it that that little dude uses her left hand for the thumbs up...)

A left-handed lesbian! See--yeah, I probably should have voted #1, because I really would be *thrilled* if my daughter were both. Or either. Oh, but I'll be thrilled either way; I guess I'll stick with my original vote of #2.

Ooh...this just got a s/o poll going in my head, but I'm walking out the door, and I've never made a poll before, so it might take me a minute to figure it out. So...later.


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## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

I voted nonplussed. I just want some grandbabies


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

I put disappointed, but whatever. Not because I personally would have any problem with it, but because we have a crappy extended family in the deep south and I have seen from experiance how hard it is when your extended family rejects you and the community thinks you're evil. My uncle is gay and got outed against his will and had to move from the only town he's ever lived in because his life was in danger. I don't care who my child is attracted to, but I would hate for him or her to have to deal with that fear and prejudice. Right now we live in Atlanta, which would be fine, but we're having to move back out to a small town because of DH job and I fear it won't be any better than the town I grew up in.


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## meggles (Mar 9, 2004)

So long as she's happy in whatever future partnership she finds, I don't care one bit.

I can deal with her wanting to be anything, except a conservative republican fascist.


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## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

You know, there are so many things my kids could grow up to be or do that would bother me. I just hope that, whatever their sexuality, they get to confident sexual (and personal, spiritual, etc.) self-understanding with a minimum of angst. Queer or not, I hope their lives are filled with wonderful relationships.


----------



## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

It wouldn't bother me, but then I grew up in california around all sorts of characters, and I'm pretty accepting of homosexuality.

However, I would worry for him because the US still has a long ways to go towards gay acceptance, and I'd hate for him to experience discrimination based on anything about himself.

DH wouldn't be against it, per se, but he'd have a hard time accepting it. He grew up in a very masculine setting, with policemen and such for role models, so being gay wasn't something anybody really talked about or knew anybody who was. Ultimately, he loves our son though, and I doubt there's anything DS could do to change that.


----------



## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

I said #3 mostly because I think thrilled is kind a bizarre way to feel about your child's sexuality & the 'nonplussed' threw me.


----------



## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
I voted "okay". I honestly believe as long as my kids are happy, but I fear how they would be treated if they were gay. I remember being told over and over and over again "Don't let others bring you down because your fat". Well everytime someone made a horrible comment about me being fat, it really felt like a knife right to the heart. I would cry and cry. I just want my kids to have an easy upbringing. I don't want them to get made fun of. Of course I would teach them to carry themselves high and not worry about what others think, but that didn't work for me.

That was my answer/reasoning as well.

But I will also add that I would rather my child be a homosexual than a homophobe. I mean, if I had to choose









......


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## groovynaturemama (Mar 8, 2007)

i would be happy if she were, honestly. sometimes i think about boys and how they will try and take advantage of a girl or how they break girls' hearts, etc. not to say that a gay person wouldn't do either of those things, but however she swings, i just want her to be happy.


----------



## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

It wouldn't bother me one bit, buit would bother my DH, which would be sad and annoying...and would probably lead to us separating/divorcing. Or my kid(s) would stay in the closet around their Dad...which would bother me that they couldn't be themselves...bring over their partner...etc.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

I gotta say this: nonplussed means perplexed and bewildered. It's not a good thing.


----------



## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

I already stated my opinion earlier in this thread (which was between 1 and 2, but I put 2) and I've noticed pps also saying what their partners think as well so I thought I'd add my dh's two cents as well. He has the same opinion as me and that makes me very very happy. When we met in college, I had many gay friends and frequented gay bars and if he had said anything against it at that point we never would have stayed together. He wants happiness and love and all those great things for our children regardless of their sexuality.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

I voted nonplussed.

Both DP and I are lesbians. Our known donor is gay. Some people would sat that whether it's nature or nurture, our son is "doomed" to be gay. But quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me one way or another.


----------



## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

I've always said that as long as I get grandchildren, I just want them to be happy.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Other-- it would all depend on the partner they brought home. Nasty person, I'd want to die. Nice person, I'll be thrilled.


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## Gabbi (Jan 27, 2005)

I chose "okay" but feel like I fit in between that one and the 2nd choice (nonplussed).

I want my kids to be happy no matter WHAT. As a mother I would worry about the pain they could endure by others not being so accepting.

If that makes any sense.


----------



## purplegirl (Apr 5, 2004)

I am not trying to start a debate but I am trying to wrap my mind around people feeling like "it's wrong to be gay". I really struggle with this.


----------



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I chose the second option and as other people have said, there would be no coming out in my house. My son, who is 6, has already had a "boyfriend" and now has his eyes on some girl in his class. I want my kids to know that sexuality is much more fluid than what society says it is and that they never have to label themselves unless they want to. As long as I have a relationship with my kids where they can feel comfortable telling me anything, then I will be thrilled.


----------



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelGS* 
I gotta say this: nonplussed means perplexed and bewildered. It's not a good thing.

Not in the American vernacular. See the beginning of the thread for the discussion about meaning of the word. Thank you.


----------



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplegirl* 
I am not trying to start a debate but I am trying to wrap my mind around people feeling like "it's wrong to be gay". I really struggle with this.

I'd love to be part of and read that debate, but I don't think it can happen here.


----------



## purplegirl (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
I'd love to be part of and read that debate, but I don't think it can happen here.

Nope. It can't happen here, but I remain perplexed







:


----------



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplegirl* 
Nope. It can't happen here, but I remain perplexed







:

I'm right there with you.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Without reading other replies.....

I voted non-plussed.

I hope that my dh & I raise children who are completly comfortable with themselves at all stages of life...... & that includes 'being' gay. We are straight hetero but that doesn't mean that we don't understand that there are other ways of love, kwim.......


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplegirl* 
I am not trying to start a debate but I am trying to wrap my mind around people feeling like "it's wrong to be gay". I really struggle with this.

It makes me very sad for so many reasons, then the other part me is just pissed that people feel that way (it is hard to wrap your brain around for sure).


----------



## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Not in the American vernacular. See the beginning of the thread for the discussion about meaning of the word. Thank you.


Um....you mean, as in "Americans dont know the definition of "nonplussed"..."??? Because the word means what it means. People often think it means something different (i know i did when i first saw it), because its kinda counterintuitive (with that 'non' in there)...but it doesnt mean something different. Every definition at "Dictionary.com" is a variation of "perplexed, bewildered"...Merriam-Webster online dictionary, same thing. In fact, i checked a dozen online dictionaries...the *only* reference i could find to "American vernacular" was in Wiktionary, saying that the word has come to mean "unimpressed" in American language usage, though its not correct and not often used in this way....so it would still not be the correct definition, using that one, for this poll.

Oh, i found this on the online Urban Dictionary:

*1. nonplussed 19 up, 2 down

Often misused as meaning unfazed, but actually means bewildered.

English majors are nonplussed about how "nonplussed" has, over time, become so misused.*

I think maybe you meant it to be "unconcerned"? Sorry, it just bugs me to use improper grammer/definitions/word usage even when its been pointed out its wrong...a lady on an email list i'm on kept writing "nefew" instead of "nephew", it kept getting repeated in the subject line over and over, and she defended her usage when someone pointed it out, saying thats just how she always wrote it. It drove me freakin' crazy.









I'm just sayin'.

I would be nonplussed if my kid turned out to be a Republican. I would be unbothered to find out he's gay.









Katherine


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Katherine, I really don't have the energy or interest to debate this with you. I've explained the meaning already in the thread.

I can't edit the poll. If you want to start a thread with the same poll and your own words, have at it.


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## purplegirl (Apr 5, 2004)

Can we stick to the topic and not debate grammatical stuff?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Being gay doesn't preclude that, either.

As my gay brotherinlaw and his DP would say, though, it makes it kinda difficult if you don't have a uterus between you.

BIL has said that one of the hardest parts of coming out was that it made it much more likely that he would never get to be a parent. HE knows its possible, but it is also much more expensive and involves more hoop jumping.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
As my gay brotherinlaw and his DP would say, though, it makes it kinda difficult if you don't have a uterus between you.

BIL has said that one of the hardest parts of coming out was that it made it much more likely that he would never get to be a parent. HE knows its possible, but it is also much more expensive and involves more hoop jumping.

You're preachin' to the choir. We're about to move onto attempt #7 using frozen donor sperm.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I put "as long as they're happy" - except I'd want to add that it would make *me* happier if they still wanted to have kids!!! I really, really want grandkids. I don't care who their partner is, except I'd like them to find someone who wants a family LOL
peace,
robyn


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I'll be honest and say I voted "ok, but I would rather they be straight" and that is because that is what I am and I feel I would have a much harder time understanding them and relating to them if they were gay. But I definitely would want them to be happy and wouldn't feel any less love or pride or whatever in them, but I will admit I think it would be easier on me. Because I do know a few gay couples and I can definitely see that they love each other the same way my DH and I love each other, but I don't understand same-sex attraction at the gut level because I haven't experienced it. Dunno if that makes sense or not.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'd be a little dissapointed but not because I think it's wrong. Mostly because I had "images" of her life as an adult, and it includes a tall handsome man with a medical background. (O.K, I'm exaggerating a bit)

I do think it's hard and confusing for young people who are gay, and I of course want my child to sail through life with no issues at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
I put "as long as they're happy" - except I'd want to add that it would make *me* happier if they still wanted to have kids!!! I really, really want grandkids. I don't care who their partner is, except I'd like them to find someone who wants a family LOL
peace,
robyn

And that too. In fact. that is more important to me than anything else actually.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
As my gay brotherinlaw and his DP would say, though, it makes it kinda difficult if you don't have a uterus between you.

BIL has said that one of the hardest parts of coming out was that it made it much more likely that he would never get to be a parent. HE knows its possible, but it is also much more expensive and involves more hoop jumping.


One of my daycare parents made a deal with two women in another state who also wanted a child. The Dads provided the sperm, and one of the women gave birth twice. The moms kept the first child (a boy) and the Dads kept the second child (a girl)

I'm not sure I could do it. (as a mom) Especially if the two siblings were from the same parents. I would want to keep them both. But, I'm glad it worked out this way, because this little girl is wonderful, and to think of her not being here is kind of sad.


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## rockycrop (Jul 31, 2007)

I would be perfectly happy if my daughter or any other future children are gay.

Even though she is still a baby, whenever I talk about her future partners or love life, I always try to use gender neutral terms. "The person" she'll fall in love with, when she starts dating "someone".

If any of my children are gay, I hope they never have to come out to us. I hope to provide a kind of home environment where they can just live their lives, and not feel obligated to "announce" their sexual preference. Straight people don't have to do that.

No matter how the outside world may treat them, I want them to feel totally comfortable with all aspects of themselves in our home.


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## falconry-fan (May 26, 2005)

If my,currently hypothetical,child told me they were gay it wouldn't bother me in the least.

While the prejudice they are more than likely to face, would concern me, I have no preference for either a gay or straight child, either is equally fine with me.

What would bother me was if my child had known for years,and didn't tell me, I'd feel terrible if they had been scared/reluctant to tell me and/or my partner,

I'd hate knowing I'd made them feel as though they couldn't share it with me.

Hopefully it won't be an issue for me though,I'm planning on being a very 'gay friendly' household, not the best term to use I know,and discussing prejudice against gay people,gay role models,tv programmes, how gay people are shown in the media etc being part of our usual daily life.


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## falconry-fan (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rockycrop* 
I would be perfectly happy if my daughter or any other future children are gay.

Even though she is still a baby, whenever I talk about her future partners or love life, I always try to use gender neutral terms. "The person" she'll fall in love with, when she starts dating "someone".

If any of my children are gay, I hope they never have to come out to us. I hope to provide a kind of home environment where they can just live their lives, and not feel obligated to "announce" their sexual preference. Straight people don't have to do that.

No matter how the outside world may treat them, I want them to feel totally comfortable with all aspects of themselves in our home.









Yes I agree, I wouldn't want there to a talk/ a moment where they come out,it'll be more a process,rather like sex education.

I don't want to have 'the talk' one day about that either, it'll be a gradual process, answering questions when they arise,discussing it casually over dinner.while doing housework etc,asking what do you think of this etc.


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## wannabemoms (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm in a lesbian relationship and we're working on baby #1.

I voted #2...I could care less about their sexual/gender orientation, BUT I do know that things can be difficult for "us" sometimes. BUT I have NEVER experienced discrimination as a student, a teacher, an employee...but I things have been made difficult and heartbreaking sometimes, by my own family (not all of them, thankfully)...which leads me to these quotes down here (note: I used these as examples, because many have expressed similar sentiments, they were just the last ones I came across, so I'm not trying to single anyone out):

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
I put "as long as they're happy" - except I'd want to add that it would make *me* happier if they still wanted to have kids!!! I really, really want grandkids. I don't care who their partner is, except I'd like them to find someone who wants a family LOL
peace,
robyn


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I'd be a little dissapointed but not because I think it's wrong. Mostly because I had "images" of her life as an adult, and it includes a tall handsome man with a medical background. (O.K, I'm exaggerating a bit)


Gayness/straightness is NOT the element that will determine the course of your child's life. Having expectations of your child along these lines, gay or straight, can be stiffling, and result in a lot of guilt for the child. When I came out to my Mom, her reaction sounded like these ones I've quoted...she was sad that I'd never get married, have kids, and that I'd lose friends and career opportunities. Her mental picture of my life had been shattered, and she was devastated. This hurt me GREATLY, despite her claims later that she "only wanted me to be happy". Kids shouldn't be burdened with these kinds of expectations. If you're happy for them, simply be happy and enjoy watching them develop into their own person, with their own life. Otherwise, you set them up for disappointment, and your motives are selfish. The truth of the matter was, and continues to be, that I'm very happy. It's my mother that is not (although she continues to grow in this regard).

For the record, I am married, am trying to have a baby, have developed better friendships with people since being "out", and have an amazing career in science ahead of me in a workplace where I am completely accepted. Not because someone expected it of me, but because of choices I've made in my life, based on my own experiences.

Peace.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

BTW I think nonplussed is used incorrectly in this poll. Nonplussed means shocked or puzzled. I have a feeling the OP meant it as a neutral "whatever" feeling which is not correct.

Sry if this has been brought up, I haven't read the whole thread.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

I voted other.
I'd be disappointed and worried. Not because I think being gay is wrong. But because I think that homosexuals face a lot more challenges, judgment and discrimination. Also, I have gay friends and they always seem to have a tougher time finding/being in loving relationships than my hetero friends. I don't know if it has to do with their sexual orientation or the circle they move in.
Honestly though, I'd rather that they be straight. Maybe it's because homosexuality is an area that I'm very ignorant about.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I wouldn't wish any of the baggage and bs that comes with partnering with men on my kids.
Wow, that's um, um.

I have three sons and I'd hate to think that they're being discriminated against for growing up to be men.

I have a husband I happen to like partnering with.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I have no problems with gay people, I certainly don't think it's morally wrong, and many of my close friends are gay. I absolutely hope that my son grows up knowing that he can come to me and tell me he's gay and other than making me feel a little proud that he knew he could come to me it wouldn't change how I feel about him one bit. I also hope that any partner he might have would be every bit as welcome into our family as a daughter in law he would be.

Having said that, unless the world changes a whole lot between now and his adulthood, I know that gay people frequently have a harder path to walk than straight people, and are more at risk for depression, being victims of discrimination or even hate crimes, difficulty becoming parents (if that's what they want) and other hardships. Given that there's a little piece of me that would prefer my son to avoid this path, just so I could sleep better tonight.

I guess in summary I feel about the possibility of my son being gay the same way I feel about the possibility of him becoming a fire fighter. Am I very glad there are fire fighters (and gay people) in the world? YES! Would I be very proud of my son if he chose to be a fire fighter or turned out to be gay? YES! Would I love him any more or less? NO. Would I sleep better at night if he were a straight man with a super safe career? Yes.

Given that my vote is somewhere between nonplussed (with the meaning you gave) and OK.


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

Hetero, gay, bi, poly, asexual, whatever. As long as they are happy and fulfilled and confident people, I'm all for it.

The #1 poll answer bothered me as well as many of the lower # ones. Heterophobia does exist in the queer community and two wrongs don't make a right, KWIM? I've had several gay/lesbian friends were were misogynist/androgynist and it was disheartening.

There's good 'n bad 'n neutral in all the paths.

JMO.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I voted nonplussed. Actually, I wish there was a "I wouldn't be surprised in the least if my kid grew up and told me they were gay" option. Maybe its just a phase but DH and I both "wonder" about our 2 year old sometimes. Silly, I know because 2 year olds don't know what sexuality is. But he's awfully feminine! People are who they are, and I do not believe that sexuality is "learned". You're born gay or straight, or somewhere in between, I really don't think we have a choice in the matter.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucysmom* 
Just ... "nonplussed" means "taken aback." So even though "as long as they're happy ..." was my answer, it was hard to vote "nonplussed," because I wouldn't be.

yep, that was what I thought. I voted other, not because I care really what their orientations are, but because I think that the country we live in is so so ugly toward anyone other than a straight-up hetero that it cannot be simple or easy. Which is not to say it's bad either, I don't have the experience to comment either way. I just hate to watch my friends who are gay suffer under bigotry.


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## ginadc (Jun 13, 2006)

Agree with the magnificent queenjane about the misuse of the word "nonplussed." Just because a term is used incorrectly doesn't mean that the incorrect meaning is suddenly correct. (Something doesn't "beg the question" when it suggests that question, either, and breath is not baited unless someone's trying to attract fish.)

So, for that reason I also immediately responded "other," since I would not be nonplussed, bewildered, taken aback, or otherwise thrown off balance (yet still accepting of the situation) by a child's being gay. If the intent of the response is "unfazed," then yes, that's where I would be.

Basically, I honestly don't think I would care a whit if my child were gay or straight. I want them to be happy with who they are, whoever that may be. Some of those things might be a bit harder to take than others (like queenjane, I'd be quite nonplussed if I raised a Republican, and probably downright discombobulated if I raised a fundamentalist homophobe); but I honestly have no wishes for my kids' sexuality one way or the other.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I haven't read all of the responses, but I choose, I'd rather they be straight, but whatever. I'd rather they be straight because quite frankly life is easier IMO. You can marry anywhere you want, you don't have to worry about sexuality discrimination (generally), making babies is easier (generally), etc In a perfect world if all that was just the same for gays, then I could careless either way.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, first off, I wouldn't care one way or another on the sexuality front. They are who they are! As others have said, I can't imagine being "thrilled" about any aspect of their sexuality -- it means they're grown up and don't need me anymore!







I want each of them to be happy and whole.

On the grammatical front, a word is defined by the way that it's used (check out how dictionaries are made if you don't believe me







). As the use of a word changes, so does its definition. The definition of a word can also change over time within certain geographic areas (U.S. vs UK, for example). "Nonplussed" seems to be in this process. "Nauseous" vs "nauseated" has almost entirely made the transition. This used to bother the grammar freak in me, but frankly, it's inevitable to a certain degree, and there are far bigger issues in this world on which to expend my energy.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RockStarMom* 
Not sure how to vote.
With regards only to how I feel about it, I would feel exactly the same as I would feel if they were straight. Either straight or gay is perfectly fine!
But out of concern for my child, I would rather them be straight. We have gay/transgendered friends and life has been, at times, immensely difficult for them because of it.









That's how I feel. In the end I voted for the "as long as they're happy" option. If a child of mine happened to be homosexual I'd be supportive of him/her, but I'd still be concerned because of the discrimination he/she will likely have to endure.

I hope things change for the better before I have children.

Edited to add: queenjane, that was a great post on the grammatical front. It makes me sad to see words being misused, and it confuses me as a person whose first language isn't English.


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## purplegirl (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra* 
That's how I feel. In the end I voted for the "as long as they're happy" option. If a child of mine happened to be homosexual I'd be supportive of him/her, but I'd still be concerned because of the discrimination he/she will likely have to endure.

*I hope things change for the better before I have children*.


Me too *sigh*


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## Beverly (May 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Um....you mean, as in "Americans dont know the definition of "nonplussed"..."??? Because the word means what it means. People often think it means something different (i know i did when i first saw it), because its kinda counterintuitive (with that 'non' in there)...but it doesnt mean something different. Every definition at "Dictionary.com" is a variation of "perplexed, bewildered"...Merriam-Webster online dictionary, same thing. In fact, i checked a dozen online dictionaries...the *only* reference i could find to "American vernacular" was in Wiktionary, saying that the word has come to mean "unimpressed" in American language usage, though its not correct and not often used in this way....so it would still not be the correct definition, using that one, for this poll.

Oh, i found this on the online Urban Dictionary:

*1. nonplussed 19 up, 2 down

Often misused as meaning unfazed, but actually means bewildered.

English majors are nonplussed about how "nonplussed" has, over time, become so misused.*

I think maybe you meant it to be "unconcerned"? Sorry, it just bugs me to use improper grammer/definitions/word usage even when its been pointed out its wrong...a lady on an email list i'm on kept writing "nefew" instead of "nephew", it kept getting repeated in the subject line over and over, and she defended her usage when someone pointed it out, saying thats just how she always wrote it. It drove me freakin' crazy.









I'm just sayin'.

I would be nonplussed if my kid turned out to be a Republican. I would be unbothered to find out he's gay.









Katherine

I think I love you.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

M'eh, they (my boys) can be interested in men or women, doesn't really matter to me. Just so long as they find a good partner who loves and respects them. And if their partners are in any way abusive, we've agreed to have them magically disappear.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I voted disappointed, as this lifestyle is incompatible with our moral beliefs. I'd also feel the same if she was having premarital sex or drinking alcohol.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I don't think I'd be happy, but not for the reasons you might think, and I certainly would be maximally supportive. I would be worried, simply because the world is a difficult place for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. It's something complicated and challenging, especially for a young person, and frankly I would rather my kids be spared that. But I have no moral convictions against it or anything like that. I myself am bisexual, and so is DHl. So we know how hard that road can be to walk sometimes. But I would support and love my child 100% regardless.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i voted other --

I am cool with it -- but i would be sad too due to the many challanged that either of my boys (or both) would face as gay men ......

BUT That would be my emotion to own, and i would sure be accpeting and supportive of them.

AImee


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuxPerpetua* 
I voted disappointed, as this lifestyle is incompatible with our moral beliefs. I'd also feel the same if she was having premarital sex or drinking alcohol.

I don't think you can call it a lifestyle. A lifestyle is something a person chooses for themselves. Being homosexual isn't something one chooses (I sincerely doubt anyone would choose such a difficult path in life).

In my opinion, saying you (general you) would be disappointed if your child turned out to be homosexual is like saying you're disappointed because your kid doesn't share your love for poetry. It's not accepting them like the individual person they are.

I'm Catholic, for the record. I've gpt no problem reconciling my beliefs with my view on this subject.


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## MujerMamaMismo (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra* 
I don't think you can call it a lifestyle. A lifestyle is something a person chooses for themselves. Being homosexual isn't something one chooses (I sincerely doubt anyone would choose such a difficult path in life).

In my opinion, saying you (general you) would be disappointed if your child turned out to be homosexual is like saying you're disappointed because your kid doesn't share your love for poetry. It's not accepting them like the individual person they are.

I'm Catholic, for the record. I've gpt no problem reconciling my beliefs with my view on this subject.

I agree...not a lifestyle in any more sense than heterosexuality is a lifestyle.

I disagree that it's not a choice though. I know plenty of people who feel very strongly about having chosen their sexuality. I fall somewhere in the middle. I think there is a major nature/nurture interaction for many people when determining sexuality. I _suspect_, we're probably all bisexual from the outset and our environment probably plays a great role in shaping our path and choices.

But me, I'm a happy, well adjusted lesbian who is thrilled with her life and would probably choose to be a lesbian in my next life too - were I afforded such a privilege!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My only goal for my daughter is that she be happy.

The only thing that would make me sad is if she were a lesbian and didn't feel comfortable telling me. I hope we'll have a stronger relationship than that.


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## mchalehm (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
Yeah, in proper terms it means surprised, taken aback. But in American common usage it means not bothered.

I've never heard of that usage in my life.

Whatever. I would still say, as long as they're happy I don't care about their sexual orientation.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

So, apparently the OP meant "plussed," instead of nonplussed. Because that's gotta be the opposite, right?


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I said "okay" but not because it would bother me, i just think it is something that would cause my child pain (trying to live such an alternative lifestyle in todays social climate)


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
I voted "okay". I honestly believe as long as my kids are happy, but I fear how they would be treated if they were gay. I remember being told over and over and over again "Don't let others bring you down because your fat". Well everytime someone made a horrible comment about me being fat, it really felt like a knife right to the heart. I would cry and cry. I just want my kids to have an easy upbringing. I don't want them to get made fun of. Of course I would teach them to carry themselves high and not worry about what others think, but that didn't work for me.

I voted non-plussed but really had to think about it. It wasn't them being gay that would bother me but the extra prejuidice, lack of marital rights and even danger that they would face.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

I chose the "nonplussed" option...although what would really bother me is if my kids grew up to misuse the English language.







(mostly kidding, just had to poke fun after 9 pages of discussion of nonplussed!)

In general, what I want for my children is for them to be ethical, psychologically and physically healthy human beings. All the rest is just details and is relatively unimportant.

I would also worry somewhat about prejudice and mistreatment, but I have to wonder - what does the gay community think of that concern on the part of parents?


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hubris* 
I would also worry somewhat about prejudice and mistreatment, but I have to wonder - what does the gay community think of that concern on the part of parents?

There's been a little discussion of that in this thread, so I'm repeating. I'm a bi woman, currently married to a man, but had the majority of my relationships with women. Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided. Yes, in the US there are certainly practical concerns (guardianship of kids, medical responsibility for partners, etc.)--but people have choices about where they live and there are states (Massachusetts, Vermont) where equal rights legislation is in place. There are also many countries where this is the case. There are many cities in the US (New York, San Francisco, etc.) where being gay is not particularly unusual or problematic.

Beyond that, I think people really need to get over the idea that being gay dooms you to a life of pain. The ONLY pain I ever experienced as a queer person had to do with my relationship with my parents. Had my parents been open and supportive, I can honestly say I would not have "suffered" b/c of my sexual orientation. I was out in high school and college and never experienced teasing, discrimination, bullying, etc. I've walked the streets of many cities and towns holding hands with a girlfriend, and I've never gotten harrassed. Or COURSE it can happen. But that can happen for many reasons--the color of your skin, the way you dress, your weight, your gender, etc.

I just can't imagine it being "okay" to say something like, "I would support my child if he or she was an interracial relationship, but I would be sad b/c I know how much pain and trouble it would cause." For the majority of queer people I know, the major "pain" of their sexual orientation came from lack of acceptance by family--so if you commit to supporting your children, I think you can do away with what, in my mind, is the major "difficulty". Please, don't pity me or my queer friends for the "pain" and "suffering" and "difficulty" we've been through--I don't know any queer people who, given the option, would choose to be straight (though I'm sure they exist).


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

I don't care one way or the other. I just hope he is happy and choosing healthy relationships, either gender is fine with me.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
There's been a little discussion of that in this thread, so I'm repeating. I'm a bi woman, currently married to a man, but had the majority of my relationships with women. Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided. Yes, in the US there are certainly practical concerns (guardianship of kids, medical responsibility for partners, etc.)--but people have choices about where they live and there are states (Massachusetts, Vermont) where equal rights legislation is in place. There are also many countries where this is the case. There are many cities in the US (New York, San Francisco, etc.) where being gay is not particularly unusual or problematic.

Unfortunately, my country is very far from achieving equal marriage rights. Society here is very conservative, in part because that's just our personality and in part because of the heavy influence the Catholic church has. I do believe it's not easy being homosexual here and I chose my answer accordingly. I'm glad to hear your experience has been positive overall and that places in the US and other countries are more open-minded, but that's not the case here.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra* 
Unfortunately, my country is very far from achieving equal marriage rights. Society here is very conservative, in part because that's just our personality and in part because of the heavy influence the Catholic church has. I do believe it's not easy being homosexual here and I chose my answer accordingly. I'm glad to hear your experience has been positive overall and that places in the US and other countries are more open-minded, but that's not the case here.

I wasn't responding to you in particular, and I know there are many countries (and states) where equal rights are far from a reality. The majority of posters are from the US, though, and that's the experience I can speak to. But I do believe that having a supportive family--wherever you are--goes a long, long way toward making life positive (whatever your sexual orientation).

ETA: Though I do want to reiterate that, even in places with less equality, being gay does not consign one to a life of difficulty anymore than being straight consigns one to a life of ease.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided.
... I think people really need to get over the idea that being gay dooms you to a life of pain.

That is exactly what I was thinking, and the reason why I asked what the perception of the prejudice concerns was. Thanks for your response.







I don't think any parent wants their child to have to face discrimination or intolerance for any reason. I've long thought, though, that saying "I wouldn't want them to be gay because it's so hard to be gay" seemed a little prejudiced in and of itself. I'm glad to know that my suspicion about the way that sentiment is received was accurate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
For the majority of queer people I know, the major "pain" of their sexual orientation came from lack of acceptance by family--so if you commit to supporting your children, I think you can do away with what, in my mind, is the major "difficulty".

That was my hunch as well. Thanks for confirming it!


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 

Beyond that, I think people really need to get over the idea that being gay dooms you to a life of pain.

Exactly! I said something along the same lines like eight pages ago. It really pains me to see all these responses about the horrible life that gay people have to endure. Anyone can have a life of pain, not just gay people. Being gay does not make someone's life worse.

And I have to say re: non-plussed. Frog has said numerous times that she cannot change the poll to change this word. I am positive that if she could change it she would have done it nine pages ago. I was an English major in college and I knew what she meant. As an English major, grammar has been very important to me, but in the scheme of things, it is not the end all be all to life and posting on the internet.


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## ChristineIndy (Jan 3, 2006)

I couldn't care less what my kids end up being, orientation-wise.

But I still want a grandkid out of the deal, either way.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redpajama* 
I
So I don't *want* my kids to be left-handed, but if one (or both) were, I would think that was really interesting and unique, and I would love that about them. And I'd be equally excited and proud if one of them were queer.

For what it's worth, it seems like some of the most interesting people I've known have been left-handed, and most of my closest, dearest friends have been queer.

And...if my child(ren) should turn out to be both gay AND left-handed...why, that's a recipe for success if _I've_ ever heard one.

















Well you don't want them to turn out left handed. THAT sets them up for a lifetime of more accidents. (really - google it!)









- I'm left handed btw


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## MujerMamaMismo (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
There's been a little discussion of that in this thread, so I'm repeating. I'm a bi woman, currently married to a man, but had the majority of my relationships with women. Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided. Yes, in the US there are certainly practical concerns (guardianship of kids, medical responsibility for partners, etc.)--but people have choices about where they live and there are states (Massachusetts, Vermont) where equal rights legislation is in place. There are also many countries where this is the case. There are many cities in the US (New York, San Francisco, etc.) where being gay is not particularly unusual or problematic.

Beyond that, I think people really need to get over the idea that being gay dooms you to a life of pain. The ONLY pain I ever experienced as a queer person had to do with my relationship with my parents. Had my parents been open and supportive, I can honestly say I would not have "suffered" b/c of my sexual orientation. I was out in high school and college and never experienced teasing, discrimination, bullying, etc. I've walked the streets of many cities and towns holding hands with a girlfriend, and I've never gotten harrassed. Or COURSE it can happen. But that can happen for many reasons--the color of your skin, the way you dress, your weight, your gender, etc.

I just can't imagine it being "okay" to say something like, "I would support my child if he or she was an interracial relationship, but I would be sad b/c I know how much pain and trouble it would cause." For the majority of queer people I know, the major "pain" of their sexual orientation came from lack of acceptance by family--so if you commit to supporting your children, I think you can do away with what, in my mind, is the major "difficulty". Please, don't pity me or my queer friends for the "pain" and "suffering" and "difficulty" we've been through--I don't know any queer people who, given the option, would choose to be straight (though I'm sure they exist).

Amen. I tried to write out some similar sentiments but couldn't make it coherent enough to hit submit.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I will be happy if my children find someone who loves and values them. If that is a man for my boys and a woman for my girls I will be happy. My sister has found love with a woman who she will marry in a civil ceremony this year and we will all be there to share their day.

We were raised Catholics and our family had many gay friends partly through the theatre and my uncle and nan's work, partly through the church - yes and partly through my dad's lifelong best friend who is gay.

I find intolerance of sexuality, especially on religious grounds, quite ridiculous.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided.


Very good point. THis thread actually has had me reflecting deeper into my own views regarding homosexuality.
Sadly, despite having gay friends and thinking that I was ok with it, I really find that I am not. I guess I am prejudiced because of my ignorance.
Most of my gay friends haven't come out yet. The rest who are are always heartbroken and feel taken advantaged of by their relationships with other men. Maybe the culture that I grew up in makes it really hard for homosexuals to find long-lasting and meaningful relationships and I think that my worries mostly stem from that. I would like for my children to find loving and respectful relationships which I personally have not seen among my gay friends. Maybe my world is just a little bit too small and maybe I need to expand it a bit. How? I don't know but I know that bottomline is, I am prejudiced and it's not something I want to be.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

I've never heard of that usage in my life.
yeah. Me neither. Except for when I've been unimpressed.

Quote:

- I'm left handed btw
me too. And frankly, it was a PIA during elementary school. No freakin' left-handed scissors. It helped me be ambidextrous though.

Quote:

Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain" response a little misguided. Yes, in the US there are certainly practical concerns (guardianship of kids, medical responsibility for partners, etc.)--but people have choices about where they live and there are states (Massachusetts, Vermont) where equal rights legislation is in place. There are also many countries where this is the case. There are many cities in the US (New York, San Francisco, etc.) where being gay is not particularly unusual or problematic.
Yes, absolutely, but it begs the question of where does one live and also interact meaningfully and frequently with extended, open family members? Presuming, of course, that one chooses to do so. And I do. And so does DH. And maybe our children will want to as well. Do I hope for that? Kind of no and kind of selfishly yes. If that makes sense. But family, our connection and desire to be near, do interact with where we choose to live. It just so happens that I live in a relatively (to the rest of the U.S.) open, liberal area. But people still giggle and point and wonder and my kids will frankly have enough trouble with others wondering if their father is illegal (no, he's not, and is in fact a citizen, but WTF do you care?--not you here at mdc, in general) without having yet another item to add to the agenda. So while I agree with you in theory, the application of it may differ considerably depending on extenuating circumstances.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I wasn't responding to you in particular, and I know there are many countries (and states) where equal rights are far from a reality. The majority of posters are from the US, though, and that's the experience I can speak to. But I do believe that having a supportive family--wherever you are--goes a long, long way toward making life positive (whatever your sexual orientation).

ETA: Though I do want to reiterate that, even in places with less equality, being gay does not consign one to a life of difficulty anymore than being straight consigns one to a life of ease.

I know you weren't responding to me in particular, I just wanted to clarify my position a little more.

Isn't the US very diverse, though? Aren't there some deeply religious areas where a homosexual person wouldn't be accepted? And not everybody has the possibility to move wherever they want to. I agree that being homosexual isn't the kiss of death so to speak, but I think it's naïve to believe it won't bring you trouble at all (if you live somewhere where your sexuality will not be accepted).

And yes, I definitely agree that having a supportive family makes all the difference.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
There's been a little discussion of that in this thread, so I'm repeating. I'm a bi woman, currently married to a man, but had the majority of my relationships with women. Personally, I find the "I'd be okay with it, but sad b/c my child would have to suffer pain"
......
Please, don't pity me or my queer friends for the "pain" and "suffering" and "difficulty" we've been through--I don't know any queer people who, given the option, would choose to be straight (though I'm sure they exist).

I totally agree with this post. I used to think along those lines, then one day it dawned upon me that I'm not exactly in a position of power in society either and while there have been some stinky moments because I'm a woman of colour, the good by far outweigh's the bad. So while I will support my sons if they are gay or straight and any discrimination they may face as a gay man, just as I would if they should face discrimination as a POC, but it's not something that is going to worry me any more than say my son driving down the 401 (busiest highway in North America). But also maybe I have that luxery to not worry too much because I live in Toronto.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I did not read _all_ the posts, but since I voted "other feel I have to explain.

I really do mostly want DS just to be happy and to be with whatever kind of partner makes him happy. However, I want my grandkids. I want grandkids who are biologically mine. I want grandkids who have a mommy and all that whatnot.

So, It is fine if DS is gay and happy with his male partner *as long as* they meet a nice lesbian couple who are happy to share the joys of raising children with them. Then my grandkids will have 2 mommies and 2 daddies, and I'll be happy for them all.

If I manage to have more children then it's ok if one is gay and doesn't want children, or even straight and doesn't want kids







.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
However, I want my grandkids. I want grandkids who are biologically mine. I want grandkids who have a mommy and all that whatnot.

When you say you "want"....want do you mean exactly do you mean? Do you mean "that would be nice", "in the best possible scenario"...or do you mean it is *really* really important and you'd be very disappointed if it didnt happen that way? As a mom of one bio child who will soon be adopting another child, it would kinda bum me out to think a family member (esp a parent) would feel disappointed (instead of joyful) at the addition of a non-genetically-related child to the family. And of course its not just gay people who may choose to not have kids at all or who adopt kids.

Katherine


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

i voted "other" because i would be happy either way, but i wouldn't be "nonplussed" i'd be neutral.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
However, I want my grandkids. I want grandkids who are biologically mine.

Several people have said this. Would one of you please address the question a few people have posed regarding how you'd feel if your heterosexual DC experienced infertility and had a grandchild who wasn't biologically yours?

I've seen so many threads about how adopted children are perceived to be treated differently by grandparents than bio-children, and I have to say I'm a little sad to see that preference so blatantly stated by several posters within this thread alone.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

^sorry to digress from the topic of this thread but why is there so much judgment on people's choices/preference on who they love?
In my head, I feel that I won't be able to love another kid as much as I love my bio kids. This is what keeps me from exploring adopting. Even though I know that we can probably give some child a better life than what he/she has right now, I feel that it is not fair to them if I take them in and love them less than my bio kids.
I don't love my friends' children as much as I love my own and I don't expect them to love my child as much as they love theirs either.
Some people are capable of erasing that distinction between bio kids and their non-bio kids and kudos to them. Kudos to you (collective). You are good souls and good people. But why the judgment on those who can't?


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
^sorry to digress from the topic of this thread but why is there so much judgment on people's choices/preference on who they love?
In my head, I feel that I won't be able to love another kid as much as I love my bio kids. This is what keeps me from exploring adopting. Even though I know that we can probably give some child a better life than what he/she has right now, I feel that it is not fair to them if I take them in and love them less than my bio kids.
I don't love my friends' children as much as I love my own and I don't expect them to love my child as much as they love theirs either.
Some people are capable of erasing that distinction between bio kids and their non-bio kids and kudos to them. Kudos to you (collective). You are good souls and good people. But why the judgment on those who can't?

There's a difference between feeling adoption isn't right for you personally and saying that you will accept your child as gay only IF they have biological kids, because adopted grandchildren aren't what YOU want.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Somewhere between nonplussed and thrilled - essentially, if one of my existing kids were to be gay, that's fine by me. I wouldn't love them any more / less. And I'd rather the gay kids get born into *my* family than some of the other less supportive families out there.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

I'm sad that at the time of my voting, even just one single queer child from any number of over 200 parents on MDC might be struggling with their sexual identity --- dealing with fear and isolation and confusion --- in an unsupportive, heterosexist environment, whether blatantly or implied.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
Some people are capable of erasing that distinction between bio kids and their non-bio kids and kudos to them. Kudos to you (collective). You are good souls and good people. But why the judgment on those who can't?

No one is talking about whether you personally want to adopt kids or not...we are talking about the insistence on having bio *grandkids*...will you also not love adopted grandkids as much as your bio ones? Will you think of nonbio grandkids like "neighbor kids" and not truly "yours"? If so, i DO judge that and find it sad, because it hurts families and it hurts children. How would you like to be the grandkid that was less favored because they werent "real"? It happens. Its sad. You dont have to have a gay child to worry about this either...any child of yours could end up dealing with infertility issues, or marry a spouse who has kids from a previous relationship that your adult child ends up parenting or even adopting. Or they simply could decide adopting is a good way to expand their family. Its something to think about ,at least, to figure out for yourself why that would bother you, or why having a genetically related grandchild is important.

This may seem to be veering off topic, but i dont think it is really, because at the root is basically a prejudice against someone because they are different from you (general you.)

Katherine


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *starling&diesel* 
I'm sad that at the time of my voting, even just one single queer child from any number of over 200 parents on MDC might be struggling with their sexual identity --- dealing with fear and isolation and confusion --- in an unsupportive, heterosexist environment, whether blatantly or implied.

Statistically, it's this side of certain that's happening, or will happen in the relatively near future.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Several people have said this. Would one of you please address the question a few people have posed regarding how you'd feel if your heterosexual DC experienced infertility and had a grandchild who wasn't biologically yours?

I've seen so many threads about how adopted children are perceived to be treated differently by grandparents than bio-children, and I have to say I'm a little sad to see that preference so blatantly stated by several posters within this thread alone.

I don't think I could even begin to adaquately address answering this question in the space and time allowed by this format. However, it is important to face the fact that many parents would be much more accepting and supportive of their gay children if they did not fear that it lessened the possiblity of grand kids.


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## Brilliantmama (Sep 28, 2006)

I'd be excited for either girl, as would hubby. I think it would be an exciting adventure to begin a search for love. (Dating/finding a mate is _always_ an adventure whether gay or straight!)

I can imagine my girls grown up either way, and I don't think I would feel cheated out of a "proper" wedding, a Son In Law or "legitimate" grandkids. We will celebrate love and family however it comes, even if it is outside of cultural ideals.

I just want someone who loves them, makes them laugh and will be a good parent, gender is not important or up to me for that matter.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I don't love my friends' children as much as I love my own and I don't expect them to love my child as much as they love theirs either.

And what does that have to do with adopted kids? If you're comparing how you'd love an adopted child to how you love your friends' children, then yeah, adoption clearly isn't for you.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
No one is talking about whether you personally want to adopt kids or not...we are talking about the insistence on having bio *grandkids*...will you also not love adopted grandkids as much as your bio ones? Will you think of nonbio grandkids like "neighbor kids" and not truly "yours"? If so, i DO judge that and find it sad, because it hurts families and it hurts children. How would you like to be the grandkid that was less favored because they werent "real"? It happens. Its sad. You dont have to have a gay child to worry about this either...any child of yours could end up dealing with infertility issues, or marry a spouse who has kids from a previous relationship that your adult child ends up parenting or even adopting. Or they simply could decide adopting is a good way to expand their family.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster*
I don't think I could even begin to adaquately address answering this question in the space and time allowed by this format.

I wish you (or someone who shares your view) would at least attempt to address the question.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
So, It is fine if DS is gay and happy with his male partner *as long as* they meet a nice lesbian couple who are happy to share the joys of raising children with them. Then my grandkids will have 2 mommies and 2 daddies, and I'll be happy for them all.

If I manage to have more children then it's ok if one is gay and doesn't want children, or even straight and doesn't want kids







.


LOL.

Cuz it's all about us isn't it?

I understand what you are saying. I'm 43, and I am getting to that part of my life where I sorta wouldn't mind a grand kid. Particularly if it is my stepdaughter's child. (cuz that doesn't make as old somehow) But, I am starting to look forward to having a special child in my house that I can spoil with no "rules".


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
No one is talking about whether you personally want to adopt kids or not...we are talking about the insistence on having bio *grandkids*...will you also not love adopted grandkids as much as your bio ones? Will you think of nonbio grandkids like "neighbor kids" and not truly "yours"? If so, i DO judge that and find it sad, because it hurts families and it hurts children. How would you like to be the grandkid that was less favored because they werent "real"? It happens. Its sad. You dont have to have a gay child to worry about this either...any child of yours could end up dealing with infertility issues, or marry a spouse who has kids from a previous relationship that your adult child ends up parenting or even adopting. Or they simply could decide adopting is a good way to expand their family. Its something to think about ,at least, to figure out for yourself why that would bother you, or why having a genetically related grandchild is important.

This may seem to be veering off topic, but i dont think it is really, because at the root is basically a prejudice against someone because they are different from you (general you.)

Katherine


Thank you for your response.
However, to use your example, I think that if I were to be disappointed with my child/ren not having their own babies (I really can't say for sure if I would be because I cannot see beyond my child being still a baby, much less, GRANDKIDS!!!!







), it probably wouldn't matter what the reason were- whether it's because they have a same-sex partner, have infertility issues, choose not to, etc. I would be just as disappointed, whatever reason it was. I'm really not quite the biology/evolution expert but somehow I would think that it's imprinted in most of us to propagate our genetics hence the desire for genetically related kin.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
There's a difference between feeling adoption isn't right for you personally and saying that you will accept your child as gay only IF they have biological kids, because adopted grandchildren aren't what YOU want.

Very good point. But being disappointed in your child not having a biological child/ren because he/she is gay doesn't quite equate to not accepting him/her as being gay, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra*
If you're comparing how you'd love an adopted child to how you love your friends' children, then yeah, adoption clearly isn't for you.

Yep, I really don't think it is for me. As much as I love my nieces and nephew, I cannot even say that my love for them comes close to how I love my own child.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I wish you (or someone who shares your view) would at least attempt to address the question.

To begin with some of it really can't be explained. Some people love coconut, others hate it. Those that hate it could never really explain to those that love itt why they hate it, and those that love it can never really explain to those that hate it why they love it. Some things just can't be expressed with words.

DS is insisting that I read him a book now, so I'll think about if there is any of it I can explain.

I would like to point out that there is a big difference between being disapointed if one doesn't get biogrand kids and giving adopted grand kids the cold shoulder.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

As this goes OT, it is getting even more upsetting to me than it even has been.

I do. not. get. it.

I do not get caring about the sexuality of our children.
I do not get wanting grandchildren.
I do not get not loving a human being because they did not come from your womb.

I feel like I'm on another planet.

I will love my children regardless of who they love.
I will love my children whether they have children or not.
I will love any child regardless of whose womb carried them.

I'm like







: I don't know what to say...


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 







As this goes OT, it is getting even more upsetting to me than it even has been.

I do. not. get. it.

I do not get caring about the sexuality of our children.
I do not get wanting grandchildren.
I do not get not loving a human being because they did not come from your womb.

I feel like I'm on another planet.

I will love my children regardless of who they love.
I will love my children whether they have children or not.
I will love any child regardless of whose womb carried them.

I'm like







: I don't know what to say...

I'm sorry about you getting upset but I'm not sure what you are reading because nobody's ever said about not loving adopted kids.
What I am saying is that I think that I would not love them the same as my own. It's not an all or nothing. Do you love all other human beings on this earth equally?


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
It really pains me to see all these responses about the horrible life that gay people have to endure. Anyone can have a life of pain, not just gay people. Being gay does not make someone's life worse.









: Take it from me, being a lesbian makes me happy!







The only frustration I can think of is not being allowed to legally marry my partner (well, that and feeling dismayed by the disturbing presence of homophobia on MDC). But my sweetie and I are creating a family anyways, which makes us happy.

Saying that you don't want your child to be gay because his life will be harder seems the same as saying you don't want to have any daughters, just sons, because females in general are paid less, respected less, raped more often, and suffer from a lack of equality with males. Most of the pain and difficulty that I've experienced in life has been due to being born female, so maybe we should all only want male children.

If that analogy doesn't speak to you, try one of the following:

Should we only want white children because children of color might suffer more in life? What about rich vs. poor children, able-bodied vs. disabled children?

We are all different yet still human. Let's make room for _everybody_ to be themselves.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
If you look at the statistical evidence regarding violent crime, particularly domestic violence, it's overwhelmingly men who do the violence. And that doesn't begin to get in to how women who partner with men are statistically more likely to have negative feelings about their bodies, do more than their fair share of housework, etc.









: I







feminists! Perhaps the people who took issue with the truths that avengingophelia speaks missed the word "statistically"? We're talking statistics here, people, general trends. Before the accusations of "man-hater" start flying, let me just say that I think some men are exceptionally wonderful, beautiful people, and I know there are crappy, evil, nasty people who happen to be female. This truth does not change the truth of the statistics that show an overwhelming trend of male violence against females.

avengingophelia, your excellent statistics bear re-posting: http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
Yep, I really don't think it is for me. As much as I love my nieces and nephew, I cannot even say that my love for them comes close to how I love my own child.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I'm sorry about you getting upset but I'm not sure what you are reading because nobody's ever said about not loving adopted kids.
What I am saying is that I think that I would not love them the same as my own. It's not an all or nothing. Do you love all other human beings on this earth equally?

Adopting a child is NOTHING like having a niece and nephew. Your niece and nephew have parents who are their primary caregivers. When you adopt a child, you take him into your home AS one of your children. You BECOME their parent. My mind is actually reeling from this a little b/c I don't see how you can possibly compare the love you have for other people's children who are being raised by those other people to the love adoptive parents feel for THEIR children (yes, they are "theirs", even though they don't share genetic material). When you marry, you choose to make someone who is not related by blood part of your family. Do you love your partner? Do you love him less b/c he doesn't share your genetic material?

I think what's getting some people's hackles up on this thread is the undercurrent (not stated explicitly by anyone, and I'm not singling you out) that MDC mamas would love their biological grandchildren MORE than adoptive ones. Imagine how that feels to anyone on this thread who is either adopted themselves or has adopted a child.

Now personally, I don't understand the "as long as I have grandkids" mentality in general, so that tells you where I'm coming from--I simply can't see how it is my place to judge my child on the basis of whether or not she wants to reproduce. It is not her job to provide grandchildren for me. I don't have expectations for the particulars of dd's adult life. My job as a mother, I think, is to raise a child who is capable of making the decisions that make HER happy and healthy, not one who makes the decisions that I would make.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
Should we only want white children because children of color might suffer more in life? What about rich vs. poor children, able-bodied vs. disabled children?

We are all different yet still human. Let's make room for _everybody_ to be themselves.

Exactly.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
...Imagine how that feels to anyone on this thread who is either adopted themselves or has adopted a child.
...

I am adopted myself, and I'm torn about it. It saddens me that there exists what I consider to be such a huge misunderstanding about adoption and the bond between adopted children and their parents. Yet I'll grant that, as a few posters have pointed out, those who feel that they love their 'own' more have not chosen to adopt.

But then the subject of grandchildren comes up and the decision to adopt or not is out of the grandparents' hands; and would parents who chose not to adopt for themselves then not love and bond with adopted grandchildren [in the same way as biological grandchildren]? How sad. I hope and believe that thrust into that situation, grandparents would find the situation enlightening and find that 'own' does not equal 'biological'.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
It really pains me to see all these responses about the horrible life that gay people have to endure. Anyone can have a life of pain, not just gay people. Being gay does not make someone's life worse.

On the original topic, this pains me, too. I just posted to another thread: it is true that homophobia (and racism and misogyny) and hate and bigotry in all forms exist in the world. But I believe and I have found that people who love and accept themselves can and do find love and acceptance in the world at large. To me, being disappointed that my child might face others' ignorance (and she inevitably will in multiple forms no matter what) in a way perpetuates the bigotry.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I'm sorry about you getting upset but I'm not sure what you are reading because nobody's ever said about not loving adopted kids.
What I am saying is that I think that I would not love them the same as my own. It's not an all or nothing. Do you love all other human beings on this earth equally?

I love all of my children equally.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
When you marry, you choose to make someone who is not related by blood part of your family. Do you love your partner? Do you love him less b/c he doesn't share your genetic material?

That's a very good point. Gives me something to think about...

Quote:

I think what's getting some people's hackles up on this thread is the undercurrent (not stated explicitly by anyone, and I'm not singling you out) that MDC mamas would love their biological grandchildren MORE than adoptive ones.
I guess I have to be with you on this. Because anybody that my child loves and is important to him/her, I would have to love (genetically-related or not). However, is it not possible to *wish* for bio grandkids at the same time? Pretty much like if one has all grandsons and would wish or desire for a granddaughter?

Quote:

My job as a mother, I think, is to raise a child who is capable of making the decisions that make HER happy and healthy, not one who makes the decisions that I would make.
That's very true but again is it at all possible to not have a bit of emotional investment in the important decisions that your child makes? And again, being "disappointed" in a decision that your child makes doesn't mean that you don't accept your child anymore. Nor does it mean that you don't respect your child's decision or love your child any less. It's just a disagreement between philosophies/opinions.
Say, IF I wanted grandkids and my child opts not to have any children (for whatever reason), is it not ok to be disappointed? It doesn't mean that I'd create a big stink about it or condemn my child for it.
And this could apply to anything... career paths, partners, sexuality, etc. Just because you have different opinions/preferences with your child about those things, doesn't mean you respect/love them less.

Sorry again to the OP for digressing from the topic. And I really appreciate your replies because it gives me things to reflect upon. Thank you for your investing your energies and input on this.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
That's very true but again is it at all possible to not have a bit of emotional investment in the important decisions that your child makes? And again, being "disappointed" in a decision that your child makes doesn't mean that you don't accept your child anymore. Nor does it mean that you don't respect your child's decision or love your child any less. It's just a disagreement between philosophies/opinions.
Say, IF I wanted grandkids and my child opts not to have any children (for whatever reason), is it not ok to be disappointed? It doesn't mean that I'd create a big stink about it or condemn my child for it.
And this could apply to anything... career paths, partners, sexuality, etc. Just because you have different opinions/preferences with your child about those things, doesn't mean you respect/love them less.

Sorry again to the OP for digressing from the topic. And I really appreciate your replies because it gives me things to reflect upon. Thank you for your investing your energies and input on this.









I think your point is fair, but I wonder what is to be gained from having expectations as to the PARTICULAR choices your child makes. That is, I can certainly see being sad if your child makes a choice that makes him/her sad or sick, or being happy if s/he makes a choice that makes him/her happy. But expecting certain external thing? Kids, a specific career or school or partner or whatever? Well, I guess I think the lines between expectation and pressure, between disappointment and judgment are very thin indeed.

My mom is a person who would "accept and love her children no matter what." I believe that. I also know that she has always had VERY clear ideas of what her children's lives should look like. Although she never said anything directly to me in high school, it was crystal clear that my sexual orientation (which I never spoke with her about explicitly), my feminism, my general crunchiness were hugely "disappointing" to her, because they were not what she expected of me. Did she love me? Yes. Did she ultimately "accept" my choices (the ones she knew about)? Yes. Did the weight of her disappointment cause tremendous damage to our relationship that caused years to repair, even though she never expressed her disappointment openly. Absolutely. Yes.

Dh's parents expected him to make a lot of money and live close to home. We moved a few hours away and we get comments all the time (indirect) about how little they see dd, etc. (they see her once a month). He's currently in a very well-paying job, but he's miserable. He is planning on leaving for something far less lucrative (but which will make him much happier) in a couple of years. Do his parents say, "No, you can't switch careers." Of course not. But their tacit disappointment makes him feel like crap, particularly because their expectations have nothing to do with his happiness...and so he feels like they are invested not in his well being, but in a set of external things that would make him the kind of son they expected.

Because dh and I are both high achievers (straight A students, Ivy League college, advanced degrees) our families make jokes about dd being so smart, going to our college, being baby Einstein, etc. I don't make such jokes, and I refuse to pigeon-hole my dd with MY expectations. What can I gain? If she IS academically gifted, she would simply be doing exactly what was expected of her (what's special about that?) and if she isn't, she'd just be a "disappointment". I honestly DON'T have preferences. I don't care if she goes to an Ivy League college, or a community college, or no college at all. I don't care if her partner is male or female, black or white, our religion or some other religion--or if she decides she never wants to "pair off." I don't care if she has children or not, so long as she is content with her choice. I DO care that she chooses a life path that she finds fulfilling and makes her happy, but that is a very different thing.

Your children pick up on your expectations and your disappointment, whether or not these things are voiced and explicit. If having children would not make your child happy, why on earth would you want him to have a child?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

grumpybear, I appreciate your taking the time to further explain your thoughts -- thank you!


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley*
I do. not. get. it.
I do not get caring about the sexuality of our children.
I will love my children regardless of who they love.

To be honest, I have only read snippets from this thread, but I wanted to point out that just because a person is less than thrilled with who one's child becomes or the choices that one's child makes does not ipso facto mean that the parent loves his/her children any less than other parents who feel differently. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I would be disappointed if my child felt she was homosexual simply because this way of living is incongruent with our religious beliefs, but I would love her no less after that revelation than before. Actually, to taper that remark, I would be disappointed if she chose to _act_ upon her homosexual inclinations. I do believe that homosexuality is in most cases (if not all) genetic, but that still does not make it an acceptable way of living to me. It is the _action_ to me that puts it into the realms of morality, not the inclination. I can totally understand that if one views sexuality as amoral (meaning separated from moral judgments) then it would be bewildering to comprehend why any parent would care.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

I should have chosen other...at first I would be disappointed because I do not mind gay people at all its just that I do not want my daughter to be gay. In the end I would be happy for what ever she chooses it would just take time.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
grumpybear, I appreciate your taking the time to further explain your thoughts -- thank you!


Thanks to you too as well as everyone else for sharing their views/opinions/feelings on the subject and everything else that was/is being discussed.
I am especially grateful that we are having this with open minds and without flaring tempers despite the passionate discussion.
Thank you to the OP as well for opening this up. This really is an eye-opener for me in more ways than one.


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

this really is a genuine curiosity of mine. what does it mean to say that being gay is ok but you would not want your children to be gay? lord knows i've have my biases so as long as someone isn't spouting hate i really can't say i come out much better if we were to tally up our flaws and shortsightedness. i just don't quite understand what that feeling is about.

my husband and i are both bi. i think it's kind of strange to think too much about who my 4yo will sleep with in 15 years and the 4mo is still in the larval stage. i can't think much past the fact that one day they'll be all hairy and taller than i am







. maybe once i process that i'll be able to think beyond it.

i think i would be thrilled if they both had an easier time than i did finding people who would treat them well.

about the abuse thing, i really do believe the strong statistical evidence we have makes good predictions about who is committing acts of PHYSICAL abuse. however, in my long experience with fellow psych patients and a year living in a shelter, i have to say that most of the women who were there and had been abused were physically abused by men and severely emotionally abused by women. that kind of thing is much harder to measure and track with statistics.

as long as my kids learn how to find a good partner and can be discrete and responsible about their expiramentation while living with me i'm cool.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I agree with Einley's views so I'll reply:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
What I am saying is that I think that I would not love them the same as my own. It's not an all or nothing. Do you love all other human beings on this earth equally?

No, I don't love all human beings equally. What I don't get is not loving all _your children/grandchildren_ equally, regardless of how they came to this world. It's like some people on this thread are saying they'd love an adopted grandchild less, and that's disturbing. Perhaps that's not what they meant, but it sounds a lot like it.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

To be honest, I have only read snippets from this thread, but I wanted to point out that just because a person is less than thrilled with who one's child becomes or the choices that one's child makes does not ipso facto mean that the parent loves his/her children any less than other parents who feel differently.
Thank you!
Our faith prohibits certain behaviors. It's not a matter of love or hate. I will love my children always, no matter what they do. I voted other, because I don't know how to describe how I would feel. Certainly not thrilled, but neither disappointed in them as a person, no matter what they do that I don't agree with.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra* 
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I agree with Einley's views so I'll reply:

No, I don't love all human beings equally. What I don't get is not loving all _your children/grandchildren_ equally, regardless of how they came to this world. It's like some people on this thread are saying they'd love an adopted grandchild less, and that's disturbing. Perhaps that's not what they meant, but it sounds a lot like it.


I was one who said I wanted a Grand child. I personally want my step dd to have a child first. (because she's older) I don't care how they get here, as long as they are mine. Ya know?

I don't think anyone cares if they are adopted, or step grandkids, or what kind of grandchild. Most people would be as thrilled with an adopted child as they would with a biological grandchild.

Although, I Do know a few grandmothers who don't accept the stepgrandchild as their own and do not even buy them Christmas or Birthday gifts. But, as far as I am concerned, those women aren't worthy of the child they are ignoring. It's not great loss to the child.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Why does wanting bio-grandkids translate to not loving adopted-grandkids? If I had been able to produce a small flock of 5 or 6 kids no problem it wouldn't matter at all if one was gay and decided to adopt and another decided to become a priest and remain celebate. I would still have 3 or 4 other children who would have biograndkids. The adopted-grandkids would be loved and cherished as would any sons and daughters in law.

However it wasn't that easy I have my one miracle baby and there is a good chance I won't be able to have another, so he's it. If he decides that as a gay man he wants to adopt instead of going to the trouble of finding a nice lesbian couple who wish to share parental duties with him then I would be *disappionted.* Being disappointed doesn't mean not loving my adopted-grandkids.

BTW: DH and I wanted a girl, but we still love DS more than anything else in the whole wid world.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Why does wanting bio-grandkids translate to not loving adopted-grandkids?

The poster said that a genetic relationship was important to her, as she doesnt feel about other people's kids (like neighbor children, or a niece or nephew) as she does her own. This lead me to believe that she would then feel *differently* about non-genetically related (adopted) grandchildren than bio grandchildren. I think that would be a major bummer for those grandkids. It happens all the time....i've heard adoptive parents talk about how some family members consider the bio grandkids "real" family, and adopted second best.

Personally, i think if one has those feelings, they shouldnt just "accept" them as ok, they should work through them. There is potential, if one has these feelings and ends up with adopted people in their family, that there will be lots of hurt feelings, no matter how unintentional. Why is that ok? Why isnt that an issue to resolve, rather than accept?

I guess as someone who has always wanted to adopt (totally independant from any desire to birth children), and who has one bio child and an adopted child hopefully on the way, i really can't wrap my mind around *why* a *grandparent* would care whether the child was genetically related. Its a foreign concept to me. I think i'd be pretty upset and probably a little pissed if my mother thought of my current child as fufilling a wish of hers, and the adopted child as........not.

To bring this back to the issue of having a gay child...i also don't get envisioning what your child's grown up life will be like, or having expectations (other than wanting them to be happy, productive, kind, etc)....maybe its because of the way i was raised. I was raised to believe that my life was my own, my choices were my own, and that they were neither a reflection of the wishes of my parent, nor really had anything to do with them at all. We were 100 percent accepted and supported in our choices, no matter what they were (obviously anything illegal or harmful wouldnt be encouraged.) Both my sister and i had babies as unmarried 23 yr olds...it was *never* an issue. Maybe our parents were disappointed, i dont know. It just seems bizarre to me to care who your kid hooks up with as an adult, whether they have kids, etc. I guess i'd like to be a grandma, but my child is only 11...i have plenty of time to think about that.

I'm not sure you (general you)can be 100 percent A-ok with being gay, but then be "disappointed" by it. I dont see how its much different from saying "Oh, i dont have any problem with [insert whatever race here] people, but i wouldnt want my daughter to marry one. Because the children will face such discrimination yknow..." I think it hints at a deeper issue, a deeper prejudice.

Lots of people choose not to have kids, or can't have them, or have them and they die. I really dont know what it has to do with being gay (that is, why someone would immediately jump to, i'd be disappointed my child was gay because they wouldnt have kids.)

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Why does wanting bio-grandkids translate to not loving adopted-grandkids?.

Also....i think these quotes may have led some of us to the conclusion above:

Quote:

In my head, I feel that I won't be able to love another kid as much as I love my bio kids.
and then:

Quote:

As much as I love my nieces and nephew, I cannot even say that my love for them comes close to how I love my own child.
and:

Quote:

I'm sorry about you getting upset but I'm not sure what you are reading because nobody's ever said about not loving adopted kids.
What I am saying is that I think that I would not love them the same as my own.

While i think most of us are capable of "loving" (being affectionate with, being kind to, enjoying the company of)just about any child we spend time with...those quotes (and others like them) lead me to believe that there would be some issues with being able to muster up the same kind/amount of love for a non-genetically related grandchild. Hope i'm wrong.









Katherine


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I didn't read all of the responses but I'm shocked at how many people voted dissapointed and angry. I would not mind if my son were gay, but I would be worried about how others would treat him. I think it is truly sad that people in this world are treated differently because of their sexuality. It breaks my heart. I would not be at all surprised if my son IS gay and I would hate to shame him into pretending he were not gay just to be accepted by the masses. I want him to be comfortable being whomever it is that he is on the inside and I will support him 100%.

I wish everyone else felt the same way. Being gay is not a choice. If it were why do you think people would choose such a hard and often socially unaccepted path for themselves? OK, I am getting off my soapbox now.


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