# The unlikeable child.....



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I am dealing with a ten year old daycare child.

She is ONLY here one hour a week. We really need this to work. It's her last carpooling option, and the carpooling mom isn't happy about it at all.

I guess she talks non-stop on the way home about how mean the teachers and parents are to her. She never says anything nice about anybody.

Yesterday's conversation after she got to my house...

"Brittany had the exact same headband I have, and I haven't seen mine in a long time, I think she stole it from me. So, I took it back from her and the P.E teacher made me give it back.... Brittany is a fat slob anyway, and I wouldn't ever wear it again after it's been on her head".

Later, she asked for the razor scooter. I went and got it. I told her CLEARLY, it is NOT for the toddlers to ride on, but the four year olds could ride it. She first ripped it from the hands of a four year old. Then five minutes later, she looked in the window to see if I was watching, then put an 18 month old on it.

She's been kicked out of two charter schools, and is on her third school. (fourth grade)

SHe has NO friends, except for three teenage girls who tolerate her hanging out with them.

She has been kicked out of one carpool this year already, and this last carpool that comes in this area, so this HAS to work, or the parents will have to arrange their work schedules around her school hours.

SHe's smart, clever, and can be nice, but the nice is very few and far between. She has a temper that snaps IMMEDIATELY, and she is completely out of control in less than a second.

I can't say "This isn't working" because they realllllllly need help. I have her sister full time anyway, and this works out perfectly for everybody, except anyone who comes in contact with the ten year old.

I guess what I want, is some insight. How can I try to understand what she feels like. I try... right before she gets here (it's only one day for one hour) I try to psych myself up for it. But, those hours seem like a whole day, and I'm so exhausted when she leaves.

BTW, the parents have had her in counseling for two years. She takes an anger management class one saturday a year, and a bullying class one saturday a year. It all only seems to feed the monster. It's like she takes what she learns in those classes and turns it around to be a more efficiant bully.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

nextcommerical,

since she is a young lady let's stop calling her the "unlikeable child." i know there are many children whose attitudes makes it easy to NOT like them but they are still children.

what would you do if this was your ten year old daughter? how would you go about speaking to her and interacting with her if she was your daughter? i would start there. why? because if she was your child you would go about handling her differently (i am not saying you are mistreating her in any way).

what would i do? I would treat her just like I treat my own child.

good luck!


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## astrophe27 (Aug 27, 2007)

*I can't say "This isn't working" because they realllllllly need help. I have her sister full time anyway, and this works out perfectly for everybody, except anyone who comes in contact with the ten year old.*

I'm confused. Why can't you say it isn't working out? It's your daycare, and she's disrupting and deliberately putting other kids in danger (the babies on the razor) by not listening to directions.

I know you have the sibling, but you have to look out for the well being of all your clients, not just the one 10 year old.

A.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
BTW, the parents have had her in counseling for two years. She takes an anger management class one saturday a year, and a bullying class one saturday a year. It all only seems to feed the monster. It's like she takes what she learns in those classes and turns it around to be a more efficiant bully.

I was this girl. I had major anger and self esteem issues when I was about 10-15ish maybe 16 but it was getting better.

Its hard to tell, but somewhere along the line she found out that she could get attention by acting shocking. Saying horrible things, doing things she was told not to, bullying. The classes are giving her ideas. One on one counseling is OK but those group things are clueless.

The carpooling issue (imo) is the least of your problems. She will start hurting herself or others soon when her old tricks stop working.

How are this girls parents? They obviously care about her if she is in counseling. I think the teenage friends aren't helping either, she will take what she sees them do and magnify it to be more shocking.

She needs to be shown ways to get good attention. Whenever she does anything that is nice and could be praised for you should do it A LOT. Someone who spends a lot of time with her would be better suited. She needs a mentor that she respects. Someone new to emulate and get social cues from.

Good luck. Hopefully this problem gets solved before the violence starts.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I wonder if you'd get some good suggestions at the forums at conductdisorders.com. This is a whole forum of parents who have kids with conduct disorder, odd, etc. who have really difficult behaviors.

I do understand how an hour with one child can be so exhausting. And you know, I think it's great that you are so determined to help these parents. It may not work out for you, but it's really kind of you to be trying so hard to help and to be trying to see things from this girl's point of view. I don't think any of us can guess at what she's feeling, but I do think it's reasonable to assume that she doesn't feel very good about herself.

Perhaps, too, the parents need to be looking for a different counselor or a different approach if there hasn't been improvement in the 2 years she's been in counseling.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

If she is only with you for one hour a week (am I misunderstanding?) perhaps you could keep her right by your side the whole time, "helping" you and giving her a lot of attention. You know, like let her help you clean up in the kitchen or change diapers or whatever but keep listening to her while she chatters about school and people she knows and just _really_ listen. If it's only for one hour it shouldn't be too bad, right? It seems like this would enable her to do some positive role-modeling, get the older-female attention she seems to be craving, and keep her busy and away from the littler kids who may not be safe around her unsupervised.

If she seems rude about helping you out with your more mundane tasks, you could say at the outset, okay, we need to do this-this-and-this and then I'll give you a makeover. Set aside 15-20 min. at the end of the hour to do her hair and a little makeup. During the hour, try to actively seek opportunities to build her self-esteem on any positive traits you see in her, even though her response may well be to say, "Oh, I know, everyone tells me that," or some equally nauseating thing. But you just have to remember her age and be patient, you know? You could have the power to have a really good influence on her and make a really good impression that could stay with her.

AND, I also want to point out, that you certainly CAN at any time say "no, this isn't working." [ETA: I mean to her parents, regarding the childcare arrangement.] You do not want to, but you certainly have that right and need to keep that option open should it come to be in your family's best interest-- otherwise you are a willing victim. She does not have to be your responsibility. It's important that YOU have healthy boundaries in your life or how can you pass on a healthy and safe outlook to the children who are influenced by you?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I think LionTigerBear has a very good idea, if that could work for you. Also, might it help to give her some official responsibility for something? With my difficult child, responsibility is a big help wrt her behavior--it's a self-esteem boost or something.


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## amnda527 (Aug 6, 2006)

I was going to suggest having her help you too. From you original post I got the impression that it is just her and some 4 year olds and younger children, this probably isn't helping. When I taught in a elementary we had a girl like this, she was about 11/12, she stayed after school with me until her mom came to got her, and her only playmate was a 1st grade boy. She was really hard to deal with, and I seriously dreaded everyday. Hugs, I know what you are going through.


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

I think if you have reached the point where you are openly calling a child "unlikeable" it's time to throw in the towel and let someone else be her caregiver. Obviously she's causing major stress, I understand, and that's exactly why it would benefit everyone involved if you admit that she's more than you bargained for and you just can't deal with her issues right now.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mama is there anywhere else apart from here that you can talk about your feelings towards that child? sometimes just us letting it all out to a good listener opens our heart to be able to help. it seems that is what you really, really want to do. to help her.

but before you help her you have to help yourself.

to get to the place where you want to hold her in your heart - which is where you want to see her for who she is - not by what she does - you need a huge dose of empathy. you need to vent to someone and u need to get every single piece off of your chest.

once you do that you will discover you will have no problems figuring out a way to work with that little girl.

giving her tasks makes her feel you trust her. you have faith in her. there are some great suggestions here.

including throw in the towel if it is taking everything out of you and you dont have any one to listen to you vent.


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## Rhiannon (Nov 27, 2001)

There is a good book called "Encountering the Self" it is an anthroposophical press book that discusses the 9 year change in children when they enter into their egoic identity. It is a very difficult time for children and if not addressed properly with compassion the children tend to lean toward angry or fearful behavior.

I think in fourth grade waldorf schools they work with Norse Myths. She may really like these. Check into the waldorf curriculum for 4th graders and order some books that will feed her developmental stage. The feeding of her soul will help her step back and form compassion. I am a enki/waldorf homeschooling mom to a 2nd grader and I totally see how the stories we work with calm my daughters nerves and heart. She really connects to them and they help her find a calmer resonating vibration in which to walk this earth. Sorry that sounds a little out there but it is the absolute truth!!!

Warmly,
Rhia


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I can't say "This isn't working" because they realllllllly need help. I have her sister full time anyway, and this works out perfectly for everybody, except anyone who comes in contact with the ten year old.

Yes you can and yes you should-- especially if she is endangering any of the other children. She may still be a child herself, but she is 10 and not 2. A 2 year-old who is going through a biting phase is one thing, a 10 year old who deliberately does something unsafe that you told her not to do is another. I would worry about having to explain to another parent how their child got hurt at the hands of a 10 year old while in my care.

That said, I think LTB has a good suggestion and, if it's feasible for you (to keep her with you for the hour), that would be my requirement for her to continue to be in your care. If you can't trust her out of your direct eyesight (and I think the Razor incident proves you can't), then she needs to be where you are for the hour that she's there. I like that LTB makes this a positive, not punitive thing, but I personally would tell her parents about what happened and spell out that for the safety of all involved until she has earned your trust she needs to stay with you and if she can't do that, then they need to find an alternate situation for that one hour.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

10yos are hard, hard work sometimes. They may not be adults yet, but that's because we don't recognise that they know EVERYTHING. There's some acute self-consciousness going on, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Yesterday's conversation after she got to my house...

"Brittany had the exact same headband I have, and I haven't seen mine in a long time, I think she stole it from me. So, I took it back from her and the P.E teacher made me give it back.... Brittany is a fat slob anyway, and I wouldn't ever wear it again after it's been on her head".


You know what? That must have been an absolutely cringeably embarrassing moment for anyone. Imagine flying off the handle, accusing one of your friends of taking your stuff and finding out you were wrong and nobody was going to support you. I would feel extremely embarrassed and would probably really hope that nobody noticed. There's obviously impulse control issues going on here, but that doesn't alter the fact that the normal pre-teen feelings are floating around too.
So, you're now in a position where you can empathise with her, and reassure her. She has opened up a dialogue with you, which you can choose to accept and to expand her emotional vocabulary, or can go "eeugh, fat slob?" You could choose to get her a big kid drink (mug of tea, even) as a treat, which clarifies in her mind the fact that you're treating her as more mature than the little ones, or at least less likely to pour boiling water on herself. Bearing in mind the fact that she's probably feeling extremely self-conscious about being in daycare with a bunch of 4yos and toddlers







: I also don't get the impression that you're necessarily in a position to offer her your best possible self. You're hearing the stories, seeing the behaviour and accepting the wall of crap that she's surrounding herself with to protect herself. That's your choice, but it doesn't have to be that way.
I like the idea of the Norse myths- my almost 10yo is all about the greek gods these days, but ymmv. I do think, though, that a lot of this is par for the course of children of this age, or at least- it can be.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Speaking from experience I would not leave her with younger children except when you are in the same room.

Feel free to lay down ground rules and tell her that speaking unkindly is not ok. We use the phrase "speak with kindness please".
ask her if she can think of something nice to say about whomever it is she is bashing. Ask the girl some questions to engage her in coversation.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I agree that you should have her treat people with respect when she is in your home. It could be that she's never been formally taught (or made to) talk to others with respect. Talk to her parents about an appropriate solution for when she deliberately defies you. If you tell her not to put the babies on the scooter she needs to listen because the babies can get hurt and then you'll have angry parents.

I was angry as a child too, but not on this kind of level. My anger/sadness came from the lack of attention I received. Some of my most cherished moments were with adults who "took a chance" on me and believed in me. I still lovingly remember my camp counsellor and art teachers from when I was 5 years old and I'm 29 now. Believe in her and help teach her how to speak to others and treat others with the same kindess she would want to be treated with.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I really like LTB's ideas, and Rhia's idea about the Norse Myths, and also meemee's recommendation to do what it takes to get yourself "to the place where you want to hold her in your heart."

But the parents puzzle me. You say this "has" to work, or else her parents will have to arrange their work hours around her school hours, presumably so that either Mom or Dad could always be with her before and after school.

Are the parents acting like this would be the end of the world? Are they acting like they'd resent their daughter if they had to rearrange things for her? I'm shocked that any couple whose child is having so many problems, wouldn't be doing that (rearranging their lives) already.

I almost sense this attitude of, "We've got her in counseling, we've got her in her bullying classes -- now why isn't that enough? She shouldn't need anything more -- so why does she?"

But I don't know the parents, and I know this thread isn't about them -- I'm just saying that the burden shouldn't all be on you to "make it work." It shouldn't be the end of the world for the parents to have to figure out a way to be there for their obviously-needy daughter.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

mammal_mama, I'm guessing that it's most likely that it would be very difficult for the parents to arrange their work hours in this way and thus they actually do need to try to avoid that. Many, many employers simply aren't that understanding and/or flexible. I've known many parents who would have had an enormously difficult time making a significant change in their work hours, and it's not because they don't care but because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm certainly willing to give these parents the benefit of the doubt.

I really, really liked what flapjack had to say about how this child might have been feeling about the whole headband incident, and how that kind of moment can be one in which by extending empathy and listening an adult can help a child learn some valuable skills, and help that child feel positive and cared for (b/c you know, these kids do feel alone and miserable a lot of the time.You can bet that a lot of the time kids like this feel that they really are unlikeable).


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## bscal (Feb 13, 2006)

Not to blame you or anything like that... but why was the 18 month old child outside with the other children while you were inside? I have a 19 mos DS and I do not leave him unattended. I do have a pnp in my living room in case my 3 yr old DD has an accident and I need to clean up the floor (she's PL right now). But I would never leave my kids outside by themselves.

I absolutely would not leave the 10 yr old with any of the other children if you are not right there. I like the idea of having her as your helper. I think giving her a job to do (especially if you can find some fun jobs for her) would be a great idea. What about having her help you with art prep? A 10 year old is easily able to cut construction paper into small squares for making collages. Or she could help you with food prep like washing fruit or pulling grapes off the stems?

GL... and again not blaming you. But if my child were injured and the dcp were inside at the time I would be livid. And in today's "sue happy" society that could be very bad for you.

Beth


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I am considering whether in your position I might ask the parents to sign a waiver of confidentiality for me to talk to the therapist, if I was going to continue the relationship.

What do you think has brought her to this place where she has no positive passions to pursue at age 10! Reading, tennis, ... shouldn't there be something she's itching to do? Clearly not. Obviously she's not the kind of kid you can just feed a cookie and send out on her bike for that hour, because she would get into more trouble. But is there some kind of affordable structured meaningful activity nearby? Aerobics, cheerleading, martial arts?

What consequences do you give her for 'disrespecting your daycare?'

Is this one of those situations: I act out -> consequences are minor -> must be nobody loves me or thinks I can do better -> I'm unhappy -> I act out more ...

Ultimately the family is the only one with the power to fix itself. I wouldn't get caught up enabling them to be absent in the afternoons from a troubled child if you don't feel it's your calling to intervene.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You don't have to like her. You just have to talk to her parents to get her to follow your rules (no toddlers on scooter, etc.) It's up to them to help enforce your rules. If they can't do that, she'll have to go somewhere else.

If I were the parent of the toddler, I'd be furious that you let that happen.


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## Surfer Rosa (Jun 3, 2005)

Find a way to get her on board. Give her some responsibility, make her feel like an "insider" (ie act like you see her as older/more responsible than she is). I find with some kids like this they'll test you and if you are proactive about getting them on "your side", it's easy peasy.

Two other approaches:
1. "Hey XXX, i noticed you weren't yourself today. Is anything bothering you?" (Talk to her on her own. The "not yourself today" means that you see her in a better light, so she may shift mentally from being a little s*it to being kinder.

2. Sometimes if you overlook the little stuff and just stick to the big rules, they'll ease up. If you come down on her hard for every infraction (not that you're doing this!) then she'll probably get worse. I do not mean to overlook the biggies-you have to stick to your guns and maintain the big rules, but if you overlook the snippy little comments, she may improve.
Negative kids are usually kids who don't get a lot of attention. They can't really tell the difference between positive and negative attention, so if the opportunity comes up to give +tive attention (maybe she does something nice, does well at school, etc.) really, really pay attention to that, and ignore the nasty comments. She'll realize they don't get attention pretty quickly.

HTH!


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

Well from what you said there are problems even BEFORE she gets to your daycare, and if the carpool mom cant tolerate her its all over anyway. But if at 10 she cant be left alone outside there are other issues at play here. Shes already in therapy. I would have a sit down with her parents and just lay it on the line and say "X" needs be behave when she is here. THese behaviors,then list, what is acceptable and what is not, are expected. List what you will and will not allow her to do. Explain in no uncertain terms to the parents that the next problem with the 10yr old will mean she is not able to come to daycare at your house.

If that means the parents have to re-arrange work schedules so-be-it. When children are in trouble sometimes parents have to be inconvienced and put the child first. Pawing the child off on you isnt fair to you or the child


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

This may seem simplistic (and perhaps it is), but for 1 hour once a week, keep her busy.

Get a craft going for her - painting, clay, watercolors, paper, glue, whatever
Bake cookies
Get a dvd from the library about something she's interested in
Check out books you think she'd like
Make barettes (or headbands








Get her started on schoolwork


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
mammal_mama, I'm guessing that it's most likely that it would be very difficult for the parents to arrange their work hours in this way and thus they actually do need to try to avoid that. Many, many employers simply aren't that understanding and/or flexible. I've known many parents who would have had an enormously difficult time making a significant change in their work hours, and it's not because they don't care but because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm certainly willing to give these parents the benefit of the doubt.


They're probably at the end of their rope, and going broke paying for therapy that isn't working.

BTDT.

When I first found MDC, I was ready to leave my marriage over what I thought was an unlikable child. The poor kid has so many problems, complicated by manipulative adults, it just isn't funny. Her acting out and her father's denial were driving me insane. When I tried to talk about it, people acted like I was a monster who hated kids. I felt like she was a monster. I'd never had any problems dealing with my own ds, why was this so difficult? Dh just went to work from before dawn to after dark and was never home to deal with any of it.

We wasted a lot of time on therapy that made things worse, and went broke paying for it. I believe my Dh used work as an escape. Those parents are probably running for their lives on the little hamster wheel, frantically trying to pay for the 'help' they're getting for their daughter, all the while seeing that it isn't working, and everywhere they turn people are judging them and their parenting skills. It sucks. Everyone has an opinion, too. You're not GD enough, you're not rigid enough, you're not smart enough. Until they find the right type of therapy, nothing will work and they'll continue to feel helpless. And every time they reach out for help or support, they run the risk of being smacked down.

I know.

Finally, when I told my dh I was ready to leave, we had a meeting scheduled with the special education coordinator and several other people who were telling us they couldn't help us either. And something wonderful happened...there was a woman there from the health department, and she told me she thought she knew what was going on with our daughter, and she thought she could help us. To make a long story short, she is the first person to ever reach dsd, and there is _finally_ some light at the end of the tunnel. I didn't leave, and things are much better.

OP, it might be helpful to steer the parents toward the website a pp mentioned. I'd be willing to bet they're being bled dry by these therapists, and with many conduct disorders _standard therapy only makes them worse._

They do need help. It's really nice of you to keep trying. If their experience is anything like mine they're grateful for any kindness thrown their way. It's a terrible place to be.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh bigeyes







I remember some of your early posts.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

It's ok now. I don't mean to threadjack. The point is, they're probably _desperate._ So it's truly kind of the OP to try to help.

But it's a hard thing to do, especially if you don't quite know what the problem _is._ And she needs to do whatever she can to protect the other kids. The hardest thing to do is give them more attention when they need it because everything in you is screaming _run away!_ This kid is crying out for more attention, but her behavior drives people away.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks! Sorry I didn't come back before today. I had a bad weekend.

I had a long talk with Mom today. She seems at the end of her rope. I guess the mom of the headband girl is furious about the whole "headband attack", and wants something done by today.

Anyway.. She has a choice on the days that she is here. She will eat a snack, and either help me in the kitchen, do her homework so she can play outside at home, or lie on the bed in my room and watch cartoons. But, she can't play in the yard, or even hang out with the kids anymore. (I wasn't happy about her "fat cow" comments)

They are moving to another neighborhood in a few weeks, so they are trying to help her "reinvent" herself, since she will have a fresh start, and nobody will know her in advance. She will still go to her charter school, but at least this will give her a chance to make new friends.

I will send them the link to that site you all suggested. I bet if I had a child that made me feel completely lost, it would be nice to meet others who felt like I did.


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## hockeywoman (Nov 6, 2007)

My kiddos behaved like that for a little while, though granted not to that extreme. My 5 YO conversations go a lot like that often - she's been written up on the bus twice, moved tables 3 times in her classroom, etc. We're in counseling with the 5 and 4 YO, and work really hard on positive encouragement and ignoring negative behaviors. When they are being extremely "bad" towards siblings, we'll pull them out of the playtime and they will have to help either myself or DH.

I realize she's not your daughter, but I wonder what kind of therapy she is in. It sounds like she would be a good candidate for PCIT (parent-child interaction therapy), which I am currently doing with my 5 YO and will be starting soon with my 4 YO. It teaches them appropriate interactions with others, and I believe they have a modified version for older kiddos). It may take a few tries to find a therapist that is working for them. Luckily for my DC, I have some background in child psychology, and have been advocating for the correct types of therapy for them. And we've seen noticible changes in them since they've been living with us.

I agree the group counseling is not the way to go right now, and is teaching her bad behaviors. The teenagers are also not appropriate for her as role models. If you can stick it out to help the parents, if only to show them that someone gets it, it would be very helpful. We've been blessed to have very supportive daycare providers and teachers for our children, that are not judging them and are helping them develop positive behaviors and interactions.


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