# When an adult punishes their child at your house



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

We had two kids over for a play date the other day, and at the end of the time one of the parents came to pick up the kids. I invited them in, and we chatted for a few minutes while the kids wound down. The parent wanted the children to help pick up (I really don't care about it, but the parent does), and one of them whined about it. So the parent marched the child into the kitchen (out of my view) and squirted soap into the child's mouth. I didn't know what was happening at first; I heard the child protesting softly and by the time I got into the kitchen it had already been done.

The parent is a friend of mine, and I don't want the children to not be able to come over anymore, but I was pretty upset by what they did, esp in *my* home, which I try hard to make a safe, peaceful place.

It's been a few days now, and I haven't said anything. WWYD? Would you let it go? Would you say something? I obviously can't control what they do outside our home, but I would like our home and our desire to be respectful of each other to be respected.

ETA these kids come to our house regularly, and I want them to continue to come over to play; they're wonderful kids.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

WHOA. That is so far over the line, I wouldn't know where to begin. Maybe start by mentioning all of the not-so-great chemicals that are in soap? Jesus. I'm sorry that you are in this position.


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## imatulip (Nov 18, 2007)

You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

Well, first of all I don't dictate to anyone.

But second, I do think it's perfectly reasonable to be asked to respect the "house rules" while one is a guest in someone's home.

My question is not in the rightness of such a request. It is rather how to do it in a way that respects both the child and the parent and does not humiliate either of them.


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

All of my friends know loud and clear that my house is a No Hitting house. This also includes anything I wouldn't use for my own children. They are happy to comply with my rules because they respect the way I parent.

Now what they do i their own house and in public is fine but in my house its just unacceptable.

Denise


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh, YES I CAN dictate that child abuse not happen in my home! Discipline, abuse, hit, soap mouths, do whatever, no I CAN'T stop you - at your own place. You will NOT do those things in my home, in front of my children. I would have physically stopped that. And I wouldn't invite such nitwits back.


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## Oliver'sMom (Jul 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Oh, YES I CAN dictate that child abuse not happen in my home! Discipline, abuse, hit, soap mouths, do whatever, no I CAN'T stop you - at your own place. You will NOT do those things in my home, in front of my children. I would have physically stopped that. And I wouldn't invite such nitwits back.


I totally agree with this. However, if this is the first offense, I would talk to the mother about our house rules and invite them over for another visit. If it happened again though, the mother would not be invited.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I would call or have coffee with the parent. I would practise what to say, but it would be along the lines of, "_It has been a couple of days, and I can't shake feeling upset about something that happened at my house when your child was over. I figured that since I am still upset about it, then I should probably bring it up to talk to you about before it has a chance to affect our friendship."_


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## imatulip (Nov 18, 2007)

and other than not associating with this family again, how would you all "enforce" this? If you really want to get right down to it, sounds like you should have called CPS.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
and other than not associating with this family again, how would you all "enforce" this? If you really want to get right down to it, sounds like you should have called CPS.

Read Mamaduck's post right about yours. This is the polite and adult way to handle it.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I would call or have coffee with the parent. I would practise what to say, but it would be along the lines of, "_It has been a couple of days, and I can't shake feeling upset about something that happened at my house when your child was over. I figured that since I am still upset about it, then I should probably bring it up to talk to you about before it has a chance to affect our friendship."_

Yes, and understand that this mama must be feeling frustrated and not know any other way. So important to be loving and supportive while helping her to come up with other ideas. Whining can be hard to deal with and she may need some positive ideas and encouragement. I would not want to lose the friendship or come off as judgemental and make things worse for her and the kids.

Many people do think picking up is important so I would model a fun game at the end of play dates too like setting a timer or a silly song so we can all pick up together and then have a group hug or something to create a predictable pattern to help everyone transistion and know that it is time to go home.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

mamaduck has a great way to go about handling this one now.
for the future, maybe at the time of it happening, or if you see something like that about to happen you can step in ans say soemthing like, "in my home children are safe from being hurt by adults, i cant tell you how to raise your children, but i can stop you from hurting them in my home"


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## 2shy2post (Oct 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

I would not allow someone to come to my home and smoke, drink, hit, curse, or anything else I think is either physically or emotionally damaging to my child. Technically, you are right ~ it's not our place to tell them someone how to behave ~ however, we can explain that we will not allow someone in our homes that behave a certain way.

That said, b/c what took place was out of view of your child (I think that's what I understood







), I agree w/PP's about gently speaking with the other mama. Though, I would also feel inclined to point out how dangerous the practice is ~ it's an old tradition that was probably done to that mama and sadly you only have in your repitoire what was given to you.

I think that you could respect her wish to have her child help pick-up ~ you might not care, but it's not a bad thing to teach children and it's quite respectful of those who have invited you over. It sounds more like the whining was the issue and she equated "bad mouth" with "punishing the mouth". (I don't agree, it just seems it's the connection that she made). Turning pick-up time into a game as PP suggested would be great.

If it can be worked out, probably the best thing you can do for this mama is model graceful/gentle parenting and hope she picks up a few things.


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

I agree with how mamaduck suggested you handle it. I know whenmy kids are over at someone home I insist they help clean up even if the other person says not to worry about it. They helped make the mess they will help clean it up. That said I would not wash their mouths out with soap for it, I would do hand over hand clean up. Of course I may have a few choice words for them about not returning if they can not help with the clean up once we were back in the car. I think that the pp who suggested calling CPS was going over board though. If you call cps on all your friends because you disagree with how they discipline you are going to have no friends left. Approaching them with your concerns is the best way to handle it.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I would call or have coffee with the parent. I would practise what to say, but it would be along the lines of, "_It has been a couple of days, and I can't shake feeling upset about something that happened at my house when your child was over. I figured that since I am still upset about it, then I should probably bring it up to talk to you about before it has a chance to affect our friendship."_









I think this is a perfect way to approach this. This may be the event that changes the way this woman thinks about discipline. You have the oppertunity to be a good friend and a good example to her.

Soap mouth is terrible. I can't believe someone would do that ESP AT SOMEONE ELSE'S HOUSE. It's unbelieveable.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

Sure I can. It's my house. One of our rules here is no hitting of people. If someone wants to break that rule, whether it's a kid hitting someone or an adult, they can leave.

Same goes for wasting the soap.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Thanks everyone. You're right, I was in another room - and I was so surprised by what happened I was literally speechless. I just didn't know what to say.

I like this person; they are in many ways a wonderful parent and I know they love children dearly. But I also believe my ground rules are worthy of respect, and never want a child to feel afraid or anxious to come over to our house.


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## anniedare (May 31, 2005)

I'd like to throw into the conversation one of my first thoughts when I was reading about "house rules." These have always affected me as an adult since there are many family member's homes that my wife and I cannot frequent because of their house rules that "unmarried" couples not sleep in the same room under their roofs. Several other posters brought up uncontroversial negatives like drinking, smoking, hitting, etc. in the home but that's the first thing I thought of. This could be a situation where the mom does not feel like she is in the wrong at all (every single mom in my spooky neighborhood would be like this).

The reason that I think my thoughts are relevant is because any gentle conversation about what I'm allowed to do as an adult to be allowed into others' homes would definitely be taken wildly personally by me and put me on the super-defensive. I don't know how open this parent is to suggestions, because no matter how kind, you are setting up new rules for your relationship based on her behavior.
I don't think there's any way that this could be put to me that wouldn't be extremely off-putting. FWIW, I'm not sure I'd mention the soap unless I was prepared to lose the friendship and the playdates (ditto cps). I hope this isn't the case in your situation and she really was at her wit's end and didn't like what she felt she had to do either.

Perhaps you have some idea of how she will take this conversation that will help you decide or find the most gentle way to go about it?


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

Well, you can dictate what you are not comfortable with having happen in your home.

We let our friends who use physical punishment know that we are not ok with it happening in our home.

Edited to add: The way that we typically phrase it is, "You know that we do not use physical force to discipline our son, and that's because we are very uncomfortable with it. I respect that you are a thoughtful parent who has chosen to discipline the way you feel is best. I would ask you to please avoid using the types of discipline that you know make us uncomfortable when you are in our home, and in front of my children regardless of where we are. If there is anything we do that you'd rather not expose your children to, please feel free to let me know, as well.


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## senmom (Jan 12, 2007)

It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

Yes, but it's my home and my children, and we have the right to request that people refrain from certain actions within our home. And also the right to insist that they leave, if they do not.

I would not let someone smoke in my home, although it is their right to smoke as they see fit. I would not let someone scream at their wife in my home, although that is also "their right."

Being a guest in my home comes with a few guidelines. You don't smoke here (my son has RAD), you treat others respectfully here, and you don't complain about my cooking here. Or I will politely show you to the door.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

The first thing that pops into my head to say would be something like this:

"Oh, dear! The soap in my house is not safe for a child to ingest . . . please don't put it in anyone's mouth. I wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone getting sick by eating my soap.

"Do you have special soap at your house that's safe to eat?"


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I agree, get together with the other mom and let her know your feelings about the soap and how you feel that type of discipline is hurtful to her child. Then I'd suggest things that work for you, like making it a game, and how you don't mind if all the toys are not picked up. I'd make sure to complement her on how great her daughter is and say how she is a loving mom and end on a positive note. I'd empathize with her frustrations, but discourage and condemn the harsh responses and let her know she doesn't have to be that hard on her child.

Hugs and best of luck.


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## senmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Yes, but it's my home and my children, and we have the right to request that people refrain from certain actions within our home. And also the right to insist that they leave, if they do not.

I would not let someone smoke in my home, although it is their right to smoke as they see fit. I would not let someone scream at their wife in my home, although that is also "their right."

Being a guest in my home comes with a few guidelines. You don't smoke here (my son has RAD), you treat others respectfully here, and you don't complain about my cooking here. Or I will politely show you to the door.









As I said before, it is their child, their right. Do not invite them back into your home.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

THe soap thing is awful but why do people keep saying to the OP to stop inviting them?!

First off, she made it clear in her first post that she WOULD like the kids back, they are great kids.

Second, it seems to be punishing the kids even more for something that is NOT THEIR FAULT. So their *PARENT* disciplines them in a harsh and disrespectful way and now the kid doesn't get to see her kids? Where is the logic w/ that?!?

I agree w/ posters that tell you to talk to the mother and tell her it makes you really uncomfortable in your house.

Oh -and on a side note - calling CPS?! Seriously?!? They have more serious things to worry about, and as much as all of us on a NFL/AP site are highly upset about soap in the mouth, the parent is within their right to do this. "Soap in Mouth" does not fit the *LEGAL* definition of Abuse, Neglect or Exploitation. Let's keep this in perspective.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Oh -and on a side note - calling CPS?! Seriously?!? They have more serious things to worry about, and as much as all of us on a NFL/AP site are highly upset about soap in the mouth, the parent is within their right to do this. "Soap in Mouth" does not fit the *LEGAL* definition of Abuse, Neglect or Exploitation. Let's keep this in perspective.

It's my understanding that it *is* considered abuse in some places. In others, it's considered mistreatment which, while not likely to get a child removed, could be enough to subject the parents to inquiry. It should be considered abuse everywhere, IMO. In this time, when people know better and generally have better resources at their disposal, there is no excuse for that sort of mistreatment of children. Not to mention that soap can be toxic - even fatal for some children.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
It's my understanding that it *is* considered abuse in some places. In others, it's considered mistreatment which, while not likely to get a child removed, could be enough to subject the parents to inquiry. It should be considered abuse everywhere, IMO. In this time, when people know better and generally have better resources at their disposal, there is no excuse for that sort of mistreatment of children. Not to mention that soap can be toxic - even fatal for some children.


Well maybe that is the case in some places, I don't know, I'm not a CPS expert for all states. I still think it would be a bad idea.


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## AnnaGA (Jul 8, 2007)

I agree that it is horrible to squirt soap into a child's mouth and I would not want it to happen in my home...but I don't think cutting them off would be effective. This mom needs to be consistent in her discipline or else her kids will soon realize they can get away with certain things at the OP's home that they can't get away with at home. This will cause a lot of conflict eventually. What needs to happen is that her whole idea of discipline needs to change. She shouldn't EVER be using soap mouth as a form of discipline ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

chicagomom - I totally agree with mamaduck's suggestion that you get together and talk about how uncomfortable it made you, and perhaps suggest alternative methods of discipline if she's open to it. You obviously want the kids to remain playmates and you seem to respect the other mom, so try to talk to her one-on-one. I hope she takes it well and opens her heart and mind to really hear what you're saying.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
It's my understanding that it *is* considered abuse in some places. In others, it's considered mistreatment which, while not likely to get a child removed, could be enough to subject the parents to inquiry. It should be considered abuse everywhere, IMO. In this time, when people know better and generally have better resources at their disposal, there is no excuse for that sort of mistreatment of children. Not to mention that soap can be toxic - even fatal for some children.

Did you hear about poor little baby Grace? (Riley) She was beaten to death for disobeying at 2 years old. THAT is the kind of child CPS should help.

Not that I don't think soap in the mouth is wrong, I find it horrible. But I know CPS has their hands full with *extreme* cases of abuse and I think we should allow them to focus on those cases.

That said, I agree with all the commenters who say you should talk to her. But I also agree that it might put her on the defensive and make her not want to be friends anymore. It really is a tough spot to be in.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Not that I don't think soap in the mouth is wrong, I find it horrible. But I know CPS has their hands full with *extreme* cases of abuse and I think we should allow them to focus on those cases.



Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, which is why I said what I did.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Did you hear about poor little baby Grace? (Riley) She was beaten to death for disobeying at 2 years old. THAT is the kind of child CPS should help.

Personally, I don't think we should get in the habit of saying that some abused children should be helped but others shouldn't because they aren't abused enough.

That's not to say that I think this particular thing is CPS-worthy, but I do think it's abusive behavior and, depending upon circumstances, could be the foundation for a legitimate call.

I really don't want to derail this thread, though. I agree with everyone else that the OP should be able to assert her boundaries for the behavior she's comfortable having in her own house.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

I disagree. I would be horrified if this had happened in my house and I don't think it's something the OP should have to tolerate. I'm not sure what I'd do though


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Yes, but it's my home and my children, and we have the right to request that people refrain from certain actions within our home. And also the right to insist that they leave, if they do not.

I would not let someone smoke in my home, although it is their right to smoke as they see fit. I would not let someone scream at their wife in my home, although that is also "their right."

Being a guest in my home comes with a few guidelines. You don't smoke here (my son has RAD), you treat others respectfully here, and you don't complain about my cooking here. Or I will politely show you to the door.









Yeah, it's a sad fact of life that hitting one's children is a "right" - doesn't mean I have to accept it in my home. Same goes for forcing a child to injest an unpleasant substance in the name of discipline.


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## redpajama (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom* 
Well, first of all I don't dictate to anyone.

But second, I do think it's perfectly reasonable to be asked to respect the "house rules" while one is a guest in someone's home.

My question is not in the rightness of such a request. It is rather how to do it in a way that respects both the child and the parent and does not humiliate either of them.

I don't think I would approach it so much in terms of "house rules"--after all, if her "house rules" were that children who "talk back" should ingest soap, you certainly wouldn't comply (nor should you). I would stop looking at what happened as an offense against *you* and see it for the offense that it is against her child.

That said, I understand why that would be upsetting to you.

I don't think it would be inappropriate for you to say something to her about it, but I would really be careful to do so respectfully. She probably thinks she is doing her child a favor (by "teaching" him not to "disrespect" her, or whatever), and doesn't see what she's doing as abusive, counterproductive, disrespectful and generally ridiculous. So approach her carefully, but approach her. It's quite possible she's just never really considered what it is she's really *doing* when she does something like that to her child.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

Do you know what message board you're saying this on??


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## Music-mommy (Jan 8, 2005)

I agree with one of the pps who said that you have no idea how this woman will react. You can be as gentle and nice about it as you think possible, do it one on one, that is essential that you don't shame her in front of her children.

Hopefully she is as thoughtful and loving as you think she is. But you must be ready for the very possible fact that she will not want to return, or let her kids play with yours if you approach her about this.

Personally, I would do it as I have learned over time that it is essential to have friends who have the same values as me, and those who don't have fallen by the wayside. But this is your life so you must do what you think you should. Just be prepared for the consequences. It depends whether it's more important for you to maintain the playdates or whether you think it's more important to stay true to your values... either way you may lose something in the whole ordeal.

Like the pp said, she may feel extremely judged or scorned by you, even if you tell her in the gentlest of ways that you are not comfortable with her discipline. She may however if she is open minded, realize that what she is doing is NOT okay with everyone and it may make her think twice and change her ways...

If it were me, i would say something, trying to be non-judgemental, or self righteous, simply stating that it sits funny with me. You have to pick your words carefully. In the end your children will respect you more. Imagine what your children must see when they play at her house? I always say that what people do in public is probably only 10% of what they do at home, so if they use abusive and coercive discipline at the mall and other people's houses you can just imagine what happens at home. Padlocks, time outs and crying it out...


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I think it is also possible to diffuse "blame" a bit by mentioning that you do not want your child to see an adult putting things in a child's mouth that are not meant to be consumed. You could point out that soap is related very closely to several things that are more potentially damaging...i.e. other cleaning supplies etc and that you really don't want there to be any confusion. It might make sense to point out that many of the "newer" antibacterial soaps etc have a lot more stuff in them than did the soaps we were raised with.

I have always been freaked out by the soap in the mouth thing because my younger sister would copy any adult she saw and at one point ate a cigarette she found because "Uncle Jon" puts them in his mouth. I can totally see this happening with a soap in the mouth situation.

Just for the record I completely think that the soap in the mouth things is insane however the people I know who do it do not equate it with hitting etc because the child doesn't "look" harmed. I would hope that you could have a conversation with the mother in which she actually would consider changing and I doubt yelling at her or not having her over again would accomplish that. I doubt she has even considered NOT doing this and she likely was raised with this as a punishment. I was raised with the soap thing and if I hadn't made a conscious effort to deeply examine my parenting I can see myself doing the same things that my parents did.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

just subbing







This is a very interesting thread and brings up many points that I would have never considered.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Do you know what message board you're saying this on??

Um, yeah. That.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think that if you are going to speak with her (or him -- you never specified) that it might be best to stick with how you feel, rather than try to preach or persuade of other tactics. _"I feel awful when children are disciplined physically. I feel shaken and upset thinking about a child having to tolerate soap in their mouth. I felt upset, not knowing what to do or say in the situation -- seeing that happen in my home."_

The reason being, you can't really debate or argue someone else's feelings -- and you are not really judging when you share your feelings. But you may very communicate the seriousness and the trauma associated with the act by sharing your genuine feelings.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

Wrong! I can AND WILL stop abuse in my own home.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I think that if you are going to speak with her (or him -- you never specified) that it might be best to stick with how you feel, rather than try to preach or persuade of other tactics. _"I feel awful when children are disciplined physically. I feel shaken and upset thinking about a child having to tolerate soap in their mouth. I felt upset, not knowing what to do or say in the situation -- seeing that happen in my home."_

I agree with this. I'd als preface it by stating how much I enjoy having her child in my home, how I appreciate and value her friendship, etc. and would like to continue it.


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## 2shy2post (Oct 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom* 
I like this person; they are in many ways a wonderful parent and I know they love children dearly. But I also believe my ground rules are worthy of respect, and never want a child to feel afraid or anxious to come over to our house.

I think you said it quite nicely here!


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## Muminmamman (Jul 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

This flings the door wide open to condoning child abuse. What some people see as fit (an extreme case: beating one's child) is not only awful and deeply immoral, but also illegal. If we just stay silent to save face, we may as well be abusing the child ourselves. I draw a hard line, I know, but I grew up in an abusive home and it stayed that way because of the silence of others.


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## 2shy2post (Oct 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kimiko* 
This flings the door wide open to condoning child abuse. What some people see as fit (an extreme case: beating one's child) is not only awful and deeply immoral, but also illegal. If we just stay silent to save face, we may as well be abusing the child ourselves. I draw a hard line, I know, but I grew up in an abusive home and it stayed that way because of the silence of others.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
As I said before, it is their child, their right. Do not invite them back into your home.

That's ridiculous. I'd rather they have the option to decide if they would like to return or not.

If I did something to my children that bothered a friend, I'd much rather be aware of it and make my own decision about whether to avoid that action around them or end the friendship.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I think that if you are going to speak with her (or him -- you never specified) that it might be best to stick with how you feel, rather than try to preach or persuade of other tactics. _"I feel awful when children are disciplined physically. I feel shaken and upset thinking about a child having to tolerate soap in their mouth. I felt upset, not knowing what to do or say in the situation -- seeing that happen in my home."_











You know what? I think I am going to take a similar approach when we have to have a discussion with our doctor about not touching DS' foreskin in a few days.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

When I saw the subject line I was thinking, you let parents decide how to parent. That would not be acceptable to me though. Don't abuse your child in my house. I would definitely say something.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

Wouldn't you rather be asked to refrain from hitting in someone's house and have the opportunity to choose not to come back, or would you just rather not hear from the person again and wonder why they didn't invite you back?


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## squirt07 (May 26, 2007)

curious to know if your child(ren?) play at this parents home, and if so how often they might be seeing something like this.


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## Prairiemother (Feb 4, 2005)

I'm glad for this thread because we have an issue like that - a friend's husband was not around much for a while but now that he is whenever we get together my dh and I simply cringe at the discipline he uses - no soap, but the language, behavior, threats, and occasional spanking.... We didn't know about it because the mom is not like that.

To your question... with all these other posters clearly agreeing on the soap being bad it strikes me (and I'm echoing a post earlier on) that really this friend of yours just doesn't know a better way of discipline. If she is someone you value as a friend, then respect that she is trying to do her best and try to help her do better. Maybe some time when disipline is not an immediate issue you can bring up a gentle discipline book you read and talk about the advice it gave and how psychology really supports that approach, etc. Maybe mention how you have thought about issues with your own children and what approaches you have been finding helpful. That way perhaps she and you can have an open conversation without her being on the defensive, and you can, in the course of the conversation, make it clear how you feel about physical discipline. If there is an AP group in your area maybe you can go to a meeting with her.

I say this all assuming you wish to continue the friendship, and being in a similar position myself, sometimes I question it for our situation.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Soap is for doing dishes, not disciplining children.

Putting it in someone's mouth is disgusting.

And it can't possibly be healthy to ingest dish soap.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I would say something, but however kindly you try to say it, I'd fully expect to lose the friendship.

Honestly, though, I'd not lose any sleep over that. I would not have my children exposed to this sort of 'discipline', and even if you can stop it happening in your home, surely over time things like this will happen outside of your house?

When a friend told me she'd washed out her ds's mouth with soap a few years ago I was so stunned that I told her that I'd never heard of anyone doing that in real life (which I hadn't, as I'm not from the USA) and that I was absolutely shocked and appalled. I don't know if she's ever done it since, but it certainly pulled her up short. She comes from a community where everyone does things like this to their kids, and I was probably the first person in her life to express anything negative about her discipline techniques. Maybe this mother has never heard anyone question this practice. I do think that you'll lose the friendship, but maybe she will stop to think about doing it again once you've talked to her about it.

Anyway, I'd speak to her, but with the full anticipation of it ending the relationship, and be comfortable with that as a consequence if it turns out that way.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Soap is for doing dishes, not disciplining children.

Putting it in someone's mouth is disgusting.


Couldn't have said it better myself









I agree with Britishmum, though. No matter how "gently" you word the criticism, the woman is going to be offended. Not that I'd particularly want the approval of such a person in the first place though


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Knowingly allowing such abuse to take place in my house makes me an _accessory_ (not that you are one, OP, since you found out later) and I will not allow such abuse to happen, whether it's spanking, mouth washing or otherwise. Violence is not tolerated at my house, and the OP shouldn't have to tolerate it in her house either. Children will be exposed to that kind of violence in public from other people, they should be free from that in their own home.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I agree that you have to be prepared for her to be really angry. But I think going on the record against what she's doing to her child (with YOUR soap!) is worth the risk. I couldn't be friends with someone who could do such a thing and not even be willing to consider that it might be wrong when confronted with my opinion about it. So maybe she's just never thought about it (people do NOT think) and it will change her mind to hear from you.


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## anniedare (May 31, 2005)

Ok, I guess I'm in the vast minority here. The concept of "I pay the rent therefore other adults can and cannot _______" is not very kind in our family's version of GD. I guess this is an American concept, and also perhaps class (?)

I would probably remove my child the same as when they see this happen in public and explain that other families think it's ok and we don't. Shrug. I guess I just *really* want the OP to consider how this is about ownership and class and money. I believe in keeping children safe, but this thread is about using ownership to accomplish that. One lesson of the "ground rules" for adults thread is that one can treat adults condescendingly based on having a mortgage or lease.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

The soap thing horrifies me more than hitting, somehow. I don't approve of smacking either but if a frustrated friend smacked her child in my presence I would be upset, but I think I would be more conflicted about whether or not to say anything (especially if it seemed to be a one-time thing). The soap, though, I would definitely intervene. The deliberate cruelty of it and the violation of the child just feels way scarier than a simple lashing out in parental frustration.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anniedare* 
Ok, I guess I'm in the vast minority here. The concept of "I pay the rent therefore other adults can and cannot _______" is not very kind in our family's version of GD. I guess this is an American concept, and also perhaps class (?)

I think it's a human, territorial concept.









It's not so much "my house, my rules." It's more, "my house is my safe place." I don't think that has anything to do with class, money, or nationality.


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## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
The first thing that pops into my head to say would be something like this:

"Oh, dear! The soap in my house is not safe for a child to ingest . . . please don't put it in anyone's mouth. I wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone getting sick by eating my soap.

"Do you have special soap at your house that's safe to eat?"

ITA

Or I would bring up the story of how I burned my esophagus with bleach as a child (true) and now have a horrible paranoia of household chemicals and children (not true, but who's counting).

And on a tangent, this reminds me of the scene in A Christmas Story when the boy has a bar of soap in his mouth. After he leaves, the mom looks at the soap, puts it in her mouth to see what it is like, and promptly gags. One of the funniest scenes, in my mind. How mainstream would GD become if parents had to experience these crazy punishments themselves??


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## AdInAZ (Jun 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wolfcat* 
And on a tangent, this reminds me of the scene in A Christmas Story when the boy has a bar of soap in his mouth. After he leaves, the mom looks at the soap, puts it in her mouth to see what it is like, and promptly gags. One of the funniest scenes, in my mind. How mainstream would GD become if parents had to experience these crazy punishments themselves??



















To the OP...Did you end up speaking to the mom? How did it turn out?


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I think it's a human, territorial concept.









It's not so much "my house, my rules." It's more, "my house is my safe place." I don't think that has anything to do with class, money, or nationality.









:

The fact that our names are on the lease is irrelevant.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

very interesting thread.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I have read most posts but not all. Am I the only one that would guess that the child cursed and the OP didn't hear it?

I am not saying it is JUSTIFIED, nor getting into the "how abusive was it" debate. I would like a little, teeny, tiny bit of sympathy for the fact that this practice of punishing cursing with soap is Seriously Culturally Engrained in my culture. I don't know where it comes from. I'd take a wild guess and blame England.

It isn't supposed to involve liquid soap (which is usually a detergent). It is supposed to be unpleasant but not harmful -- it is clearly a Punishment and not at all GD. The child has the unpleasant experience and spits out almost all of the residue. It's not painful. It's just extremely unpleasant. I've tasted soap myself -- we used Ivory. You stick it in your mouth and you really want it out. I was never punished with it, but I do not think I ever cussed as a child.

My father said his mother washed his mouth out with soap if he cursed.

I have heard of this punishment being used present day in my community.

I'm not sure it is any more violent to tell a child to hold a bar of Ivory soap in her mouth for 30 seconds versus having her write "I will not cuss" 500 times. Both are coercive and the latter would likely cause hand pain. Would you call CPS if someone punished her child with lines?

Since the OP likes these people, the liquid soap freakout was probably a less than stellar moment of parenting and none of us are perfect. I would seriously talk to the parent about the toxicity issue. I get the idea most people do not know it's a problem at all. That is really quite yucky and it's too bad you didn't freak out on it right there, (LET'S CALL POISON CONTROL) but I often think of the clever response later.

My little son as probably a young 2, dumped a bunch of shampoo in his mouth and it was really upsetting to me health wise. It was hard to rinse it all out when he could only partially respond to my help -- he did his best to rinse/spit. Urg. If I walked in to find my kids having a competition to see who could hold a natural bar soap in his mouth the longest, I would walk away and look for something good on TV. Regular liquid soap (detergent), I would put a stop to.

If you want to get into punishment versus consquences generally, and the friendship will tolerate it, I would offer to set some consequences for the kids regarding toy pickup. It's likely the parent is really struggling with that in their own home, as well as probably with the cursing. So I'd offer some support. Really if you want to convince people that natural consequences are better than punishment, showing them the result is probably the most effective.


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

Not sure if it's been mentioned before as I did a speed read through the post, but my most serious concern at finding out a friend did this to her kid in my house would be that she does this in her house--and my children might go over there to play. What if they refuse to pick up toys?? This concern would demand a discussion for me.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
I have read most posts but not all. Am I the only one that would guess that the child cursed and the OP didn't hear it?

I am not saying it is JUSTIFIED, nor getting into the "how abusive was it" debate. I would like a little, teeny, tiny bit of sympathy for the fact that this practice of punishing cursing with soap is Seriously Culturally Engrained in my culture. I don't know where it comes from. I'd take a wild guess and blame England.

It isn't supposed to involve liquid soap (which is usually a detergent). It is supposed to be unpleasant but not harmful -- it is clearly a Punishment and not at all GD. The child has the unpleasant experience and spits out almost all of the residue. It's not painful. It's just extremely unpleasant. I've tasted soap myself -- we used Ivory. You stick it in your mouth and you really want it out. I was never punished with it, but I do not think I ever cussed as a child.

My father said his mother washed his mouth out with soap if he cursed.

I have heard of this punishment being used present day in my community.

I'm not sure it is any more violent to tell a child to hold a bar of Ivory soap in her mouth for 30 seconds versus having her write "I will not cuss" 500 times. Both are coercive and the latter would likely cause hand pain. Would you call CPS if someone punished her child with lines?

Since the OP likes these people, the liquid soap freakout was probably a less than stellar moment of parenting and none of us are perfect. I would seriously talk to the parent about the toxicity issue. I get the idea most people do not know it's a problem at all. That is really quite yucky and it's too bad you didn't freak out on it right there, (LET'S CALL POISON CONTROL) but I often think of the clever response later.

My little son as probably a young 2, dumped a bunch of shampoo in his mouth and it was really upsetting to me health wise. It was hard to rinse it all out when he could only partially respond to my help -- he did his best to rinse/spit. Urg. If I walked in to find my kids having a competition to see who could hold a natural bar soap in his mouth the longest, I would walk away and look for something good on TV. Regular liquid soap (detergent), I would put a stop to.

If you want to get into punishment versus consquences generally, and the friendship will tolerate it, I would offer to set some consequences for the kids regarding toy pickup. It's likely the parent is really struggling with that in their own home, as well as probably with the cursing. So I'd offer some support. Really if you want to convince people that natural consequences are better than punishment, showing them the result is probably the most effective.


I really appreciate your perspective. Not sure if I agree 100% w/ everything, but you relayed your information in a thoughtful manner. Thank you.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 

It isn't supposed to involve liquid soap (which is usually a detergent). It is supposed to be unpleasant but not harmful -- it is clearly a Punishment and not at all GD. The child has the unpleasant experience and spits out almost all of the residue. It's not painful. It's just extremely unpleasant. I've tasted soap myself -- we used Ivory. You stick it in your mouth and you really want it out. I was never punished with it, but I do not think I ever cussed as a child.

My mother did it a couple of times as well and it is an absolutely horrible memory, worse than the spankings (that I got on a regular basis) ... not because of the actual soap-in-mouth experience, but because of the violence/force involved in carrying it out. It's controlling, humiliating and just awful.

True, it's not painful in the strictly-physical sense, but the same could be said for a mild spanking and I don't condone that either.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Oh yes I can, and will. I have zero friends that use GD. They know how I feel about hitting, and that I don't allow violence in my house .. they all respect that, just I as respect their right to parent how they see fit without judgement. But I won't allow my son to see another child getting hit right in our home.

Soap takes that to a whole new level. IMO it's abusive. I love Mamaduck's idea about coffee. That Mama may just not know what else to do, and may even think soap is better than a spanking.

OP, please give us an update after you have that talk!


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## normajean (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
It is their child, they have the right to punish thm as they see fit, where ever they happen to be. It is up to you whether to invite them back or not.

I agree. If I went to their home and they said, "well, at our house we spank, and then if the child throws a tantrum we ignore them until they stop, and you have to do it because its my house, my rules" I wouldn't be going back to that house.

I would be uncomfortable with what happened, but I see your choice as whether & where to spend time with your friend. If the operating factor is whether its happening at your house or not, just don't host at your house.

This would have bothered me wherever it happened, whether at the park, at their home, or at mine. For me the operating factor would not be _where_ it happened, but _what_ happened.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *normajean* 
I agree. If I went to their home and they said, "well, at our house we spank, and then if the child throws a tantrum we ignore them until they stop, and you have to do it because its my house, my rules" I wouldn't be going back to that house.

That's a very different scenario. It's one thing to insist someone not do something at your house because it violates your principles in your own space. Quite another to insist that they do something outside of their comfort level at your house. That's just control freakish. As a somewhat silly example, it's the difference between asking people not to wear shoes in your home versus telling them that they have to eat spinach before they can walk in the door.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I like the my house is a safe place way of thinking.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh, so if something was once commonly used as discipline, that means it's ok for today?

Should I then cane my child the next time he displeases me?

I'm not going to discipline my son how my grandmother did my dad. Moreover, I personally would rather have bar soap in my mouth, which is a whole lot easier to get out than dish soap. Not to mention, bar soap is for bodies; dish soap is for dishes. Toothpaste is for mouths; why not brush the child's teeth for it instead?


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imatulip* 
You can't dictate how a parent is going to discipline their child, even in "your" home.

I totally disagree. Ofcourse you can! I decide what is ok in MY house. In my home it is not ok to abuse, scare or be violent to anyone. Not to children, not to adults. And not to animals.

Why would anyone feel that just because someone is a parent they are allowed to to whatever whereever?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Toothpaste is for mouths; why not brush the child's teeth for it instead?









Sorry, that made me giggle!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
The soap thing horrifies me more than hitting, somehow. I don't approve of smacking either but if a frustrated friend smacked her child in my presence I would be upset, but I think I would be more conflicted about whether or not to say anything (especially if it seemed to be a one-time thing). The soap, though, I would definitely intervene. The deliberate cruelty of it and the violation of the child just feels way scarier than a simple lashing out in parental frustration.









: - I am about as antispanking as they come, but can almost "understand" when it happens as a frustrated reaction in the heat of the moment...but to take the time to move an unhappy child into another room, hold them down, and squirt soap in their mouths....it's just.







Think about how much effort that is, and about the dynamic that must set up with a parent and child.







I honestly don't know what I would do in the OPs situation, but I'd have to say something at some point because I wouldn't want them to think I was OK with them doing it again. I can't think of any situation where I'd be OK with someone forcing someone else to ingest a non-food item (or a food item, for that matter, unless it's someone literally starving to death and in need of medical treatment). I guess I'd go with the, "I'm totally shocked, that can't be safe or healthy" road, and see if the parent could find any way to explain their thought process, so I could offer up an alternative suggestion.

Yikes.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 







: - I am about as antispanking as they come, but can almost "understand" when it happens as a frustrated reaction in the heat of the moment...but to take the time to move an unhappy child into another room, hold them down, and squirt soap in their mouths....it's just.







Think about how much effort that is, and about the dynamic that must set up with a parent and child.

















:

Much worse than spanking, IMO


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Oh, so if something was once commonly used as discipline, that means it's ok for today?

Should I then cane my child the next time he displeases me?

I'm not going to discipline my son how my grandmother did my dad. Moreover, I personally would rather have bar soap in my mouth, which is a whole lot easier to get out than dish soap. Not to mention, bar soap is for bodies; dish soap is for dishes. Toothpaste is for mouths; why not brush the child's teeth for it instead?

Of course not and I never said this.

As this was not an act of striking a child, I do not see how we jump to caning. There are many other forms of punishment that have a component of physical force, and are humiliating or coercive or unpleasant, but do not involve striking. As this forum is anti-punishment in any form, that goes without saying, but it does not make caning = washing mouth out with soap.

I believe it is good to understand where things come from in terms of building the empathy that is extremely useful in any attempt to change a behavior.

I might imagine the liquid soap was anything but an act in the heat of the moment, parent takes child in to use soap, doesn't find soap, and uses the thing that is like soap. I would imagine the parent was either uninformed of the differences between something like an unpleasant nontoxic soap and dish liquid, or the parent didn't remember in the heat of anger.

Each generation makes changes. Blind worship of the "new deal" in parenting is not intellectually sound, and is not how I practice parenting. I like to look at history to see how things were done and then decide on an issue by issue basis how to parent.

It is one level of failure to fall back on one's cultural teachings about childrearing and be wrong. It is another to go to lengths to figure out ways to make someone suffer. That doesn't make either of them "right." However, I very clearly delineate this in my thoughts about people and their behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing...outh_with_soap


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Of course not and I never said this.

As this was not an act of striking a child, I do not see how we jump to caning. There are many other forms of punishment that have a component of physical force, and are humiliating or coercive or unpleasant, but do not involve striking. As this forum is anti-punishment in any form, that goes without saying, but it does not make caning = washing mouth out with soap.

My parents hit me with a wooden spoon and that memory isn't nearly as unpleasant as the memory of the soap-in-mouth. I can somewhat empathise with losing control and hitting a child. Having one parent drag a sobbing child into the bathroom, where the other parent is waiting to restrain them and shove soap into their mouths, not so much.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I think it's important to remember they are comparable (hitting & the soaping) as they are both punishment via PHYSICAL FORCE...which is always wrong & unacceptable.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Pigpokey, you made the argument that since it was once commonplace discipline, it must be acceptable. If we are going to argue that because an old generation did it, it's okay even if it's not still accepted, then we may as well apply that logic to circ'ing, formula-feeding, spanking, and other "traditions" of child-bearing. If you're going to argue in favor of something don't pull the "Our predecessors did it, so it's not that bad!" card.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I haven't read all the posts. But I would talk about how I felt as a child being punished, how it has affected my relationship with my parents, how I have lost respect and connection. And I'd express how all those emotions were brought up when I saw the small child having her mouth washed out with soap. I don't know that you can do more than share your feelings, your needs for people to feel safe in your home, and *request* that physical punishment not occur in your home. I'd also consider offering a couple of books which helped changed the dynamic in our home to cooperative: *Kids, Parents and Power Struggles* and *How to Talk So Kids Will Listen*. The titles belie the gentle advice and are welcomed and approachable to most parents.

HTH, Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lanamommyphd07* 
but my most serious concern at finding out a friend did this to her kid in my house would be that she does this in her house--and my children might go over there to play. What if they refuse to pick up toys?? This concern would demand a discussion for me.









:

Pat


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Pigpokey, you made the argument that since it was once commonplace discipline, it must be acceptable. If we are going to argue that because an old generation did it, it's okay even if it's not still accepted, then we may as well apply that logic to circ'ing, formula-feeding, spanking, and other "traditions" of child-bearing. If you're going to argue in favor of something don't pull the "Our predecessors did it, so it's not that bad!" card.

I don't know where I made that argument.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Pigpokey, you made the argument that since it was once commonplace discipline, it must be acceptable. .


Actually, she didn't say that at all.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I reread it, and I admit I misunderstood. I'm really quite sorry.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I reread it, and I admit I misunderstood. I'm really quite sorry.









Ya s'ok.


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