# MIL says DS has issues with respect...need perspective



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

DS is 4. The 2 examples MIL gave for her concern were:

1. DS went on a walk with FIL and our dog. FIL gave DS control of the leash but then saw dogs coming and told DS he needed the leash back to keep him and the dog safe. DS shouted "NO!" and grabbed the leash back. FIL firmly insisted on handling the leash and DS sat down and had a tantrum. After a minute or so he got up and peacefully continued the walk with FIL. (I was not there, this came 3rd hand from FIL to MIL to me).

2. DS went on a walk with MIL (2 weeks later) and his older cousin on a path that goes right by her house. DS decided he was tired and hot and wanted to go back. MIL said he needed to stay with them and that they would go home soon (DH and I had just left them and started walking back to MIL's house). DS just said he was going back and started walking back to the house. MIL said he needed to run and catch up to DH and I on the path. He didn't catch up to us but walked in the house at the same time we did through a different door so he must have been just behind us on the path.

So, those were the 2 examples she gave for being concerned that DS has an issue with respect and she's very concerned about him. She also has made multiple comments about how it's not ok for him to say "No" to her or FIL (especially regarding the dog walking incident).

Before and after each incident I talked with DS about respecting FIL and MIL. I told him if he disagreed about something he had 2 options: talk it over peacefully or just do it. I also explained that it was their job to keep him safe so they got to make the final decisions. After the dog walking, he ended up apologizing to FIL. After his walk with MIL (2 weeks later) I told him he would not be able to go somewhere with MIL alone next time as a consequence.

Please give me some objective feedback here!


----------



## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bstandlee*
> She also has made multiple comments about how it's not ok for him to say "No" to her or FIL


This comment by your MIL would concern me greatly. I want my children to know that it's ok to say "No" to any adult if they feel unsafe. So I would never feel comfortable saying to my child that it's not ok to say "no" to certain people and I'm very careful about what I say to my children. With the situation of walking the dog, I would address it by saying beforehand "If you and FIL are walking the dog together, you can probably hold the leash most of the time, but sometimes FIL will need to hold the leash to help keep the dog safe. You can help FIL during those times by handing him the leash calmly and you can help the dog by letting him know what's happening." (I also find giving the child something to do, rather than just something not to do, helps a lot.)


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

If you trust the grandparent (and it sounds like you do), I think it's fine to tell your son that he needs to listen to the grandparents.

It sounds like your MIL means "respect" in the sense that he needs to respect that she isn't going to ask him to do anything against his best interest and that sometimes it's just not a good time to negotiate. I am fine with that. Some things are open for discussion, sometimes we can discuss things and let DD come around to our way of thinking, and sometimes she just needs to do what she's told.

I trust my judgment, my husband's and our parents - really anyone whose care I would leave her in - to make the best call for her so I'm ok with telling her to respect their judgment and do what they ask. Certainly one of the last things I tell my daughter on the way out the door when I leave her with someone else (which is pretty rare) is, "mind Nana, don't argue."

Teaching children to use their judgment is great, letting them know that sometimes adults will make bad calls and it's ok to trust your own gut, however there is just no way to cover every eventuality. I would not think, for example, to give my daughter all the details of what she may or may not encounter and when or why not to listen to Nana on a walk. I would just say - mind Nana. Behave. Don't argue.

As for consequences, I trust my parents to deal with those - if you can't listen to me, we won't talk walks together because it's dangerous. Or, we will go for a walk and if you can't listen, then we will come home. I don't know if there's really much else to be done.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Sorry, double post.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I agree with your parents. He left them on a walking path, and he wasn't going to do what he was told no matter what. So, your parents aren't going to continue to let him hold the dog's leash, or go on walks with them if he doesn't respect them.

I know all it would take is one act of defiance like the incident you are retelling to make me say "no, sweetie, you stay with mom and dad, and we'll see you after our walk". Because I wouldn't take him outside the house if he was in charge of all situations. It's not safe for him, and it's not safe for the dog, and it's not really a good situation for the adults.

I only allow the word "NO!" to me if I asked a question or if it was optional. "Do you want me to take the leash?" is optional. "I need to take the leash while those dogs walk by" is not optional.

I also think it's great that your mother in law is open to discussing this with you. I hope she was respectful about it. But, it's nice to have inlaws that want what's best for your kids.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> I agree with your parents. He left them on a walking path, and he wasn't going to do what he was told no matter what. So, your parents aren't going to continue to let him hold the dog's leash, or go on walks with them if he doesn't respect them.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I think he was extremely disrespectful in each of these examples. And the consequence was that he didn't get to go alone with FIL or MIL after each of these incidents, but they happened on 2 separate visits 2 weeks apart.

As far as saying "No," our rule at home is if he disagrees with a request he can talk about it peacefully and try to work something out or he can just do it but he can't answer with a no. On the walk, I imagine the "No" was in a "I don't want this to happen" type of a reaction and not a "No" to a question/request such as "Will you give me the leash?" Still disrespectful but more of a tantrum than an outright refusal to do something FIL asked of him if that makes sense. Again, still disrespectful either way.

I guess what I'm needing perspective on is if this behavior is atypical of a 4 year old and if each situation was handled appropriately or if it seems there's a more serious issue we need to deal with in a different way.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It's very typical of 4-year-olds, and he should have listened to your inlaws, however no this is not a serious sign of disrespect, but only a serious sign of typical 4-year-old lack of listening to anyone. I think you handled things fine and I think your MIL was wrong to tell him he isn't allowed to say no to them. It is important to me personally that my children feel comfortable saying no to adults. You could talk to him about how to speak politely though when this kind of thing happens. Kids at 4 are still learning to be polite so it's understandable that he didn't know how to discuss it politely with them, but he is at an age where he is learning that, and these are teachable moments.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bstandlee*
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think he was extremely disrespectful in each of these examples. And the consequence was that he didn't get to go alone with FIL or MIL after each of these incidents, but they happened on 2 separate visits 2 weeks apart.
> 
> ...


It is disrespectful. But, his intent and attitude make a difference in how I perceive it.

I' was picturing him refusing to obey in important situations, and actually turning around and walking home anyway... even though he was told to stay with them.

If this isn't every time they tell him something. (some kids are very obstinate, and will refuse to do anything asked of them) I'm sure they feel frustrated, but they wouldn't refuse to spend time with him. If it's each visit, I can see why they'd be annoyed and at a loss for what to do when he acts like that.

I still think it's nice that they can talk openly TO you, instead of behind your back. My Mom would just call my sister in law and complain to her, but never say anything to me.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> It is disrespectful. But, his intent and attitude make a difference in how I perceive it.
> 
> ...


You're right, it is very nice she brought it up to me instead of behind my back (there may be some of that too though!). I didn't respond much at the time because I wanted to make sure I processed and analyzed what she was telling me. I'm planning on emailing her and thanking her for bringing it to my attention.

He is not defiant all the time. Mostly when he's over the edge (too tired, hungry, been on too many outings, etc.). But he's strong willed and tenacious and MIL has made multiple comments about how her kids were never like that and she can't believe how stubborn he is. So I'm trying to figure out if there's a more global issue with his behavior or if it's in line with his age and personality and just something we need to try even harder to be very consistent in dealing with. I'm thinking in these 2 instances her main concern is she doesn't feel she and FIL can keep DS safe when they're alone with him out of the house and I agree. DS will not be going anywhere with either of them alone until he's more consistent in responding peacefully to what they tell him to do.


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> It's very typical of 4-year-olds, and he should have listened to your inlaws, however no this is not a serious sign of disrespect, but only a serious sign of typical 4-year-old lack of listening to anyone. I think you handled things fine and I think your MIL was wrong to tell him he isn't allowed to say no to them. It is important to me personally that my children feel comfortable saying no to adults. You could talk to him about how to speak politely though when this kind of thing happens. Kids at 4 are still learning to be polite so it's understandable that he didn't know how to discuss it politely with them, but he is at an age where he is learning that, and these are teachable moments.


This! I read your post and thought "sounds like a typical 4 y/o to me"









I think they are expecting an older child here...4 y/o still have tantrums and can have a hard time listening when they are focused on doing what they want...seems developmentally OK to me.

I would tell him as a rule "When you are out on a walk with anyone you need to use the buddy system and always stay together" something along those lines. Safety is a biggie so obviously that is important but at the same time 4 y/o can and do run off and if they are not physically fit enough to go after him maybe he shouldn't be out walking with them...


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bstandlee*
> 
> I guess what I'm needing perspective on is if this behavior is atypical of a 4 year old and if each situation was handled appropriately or if it seems there's a more serious issue we need to deal with in a different way.


In my experience, it's very typical. This is the age with my older son where we really did have to start being very consistent about our expectations with him, but he engaged in plenty of testing. It calmed down for a while, and now that we're entering 6, it's getting worse again.

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen has an example, I think, where the child misbehaved at a grocery store or something and the next time the parent goes out she leaves the child at home. And the child is all upset and she says "We can try again next time, but this time I am leaving without you because of last time, when you ran around" or something like that. We did this with my son at least once that I remember and it was really, really effective. Heartbreaking in that he had to miss out on that one trip -- and boy did that impact -- but that really is the natural consequence, that people won't feel ok taking you somewhere.

The talking it out is a challenge in a situation like that. If you haven't already, I might change it to "you need to do what trusted caregiver says first, and then we can talk about it."


----------



## reezley (May 27, 2006)

I have a similar question and will post my details in a new thread, but wanted to say I agree with mamazee, who said it great, and other pps, - typical 4yo behavior, and this is the time to make sure reactions are consistent, as this is the time to teach them. My older ds is 6.5 and definitely went through the very difficult 4yo phase. Was hard to see that he'd ever improve, but he's sooo much more mature (not perfect, mind you) at 6 years old. I wouldn't call it lack of respect at 4yo, but it's just semantics. It's more situational as my 4yo demonstrates a lot of respect in many situations, but certainly has the "no" times.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

I'm glad to hear it seems to be normal 4 year old behavior. I know it's serious, but I hadn't thought that much about it because I felt we had handled it each time and DS would not be able to go out with them again as a consequence. Having MIL bring it up in such a serious manner made me freak out a bit and got me wondering if we were totally blinded to a serious flaw in DS's character.

Given that it's fairly typical 4 year old behavior, that DS is most often very respectful and responsive to direction, and that we did give him a consequence and will be extra vigilant in being consistent I'm not sure what else MIL wants us to do about it. Thanks for the feedback everyone!


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

When I was reading your OP, I wondered if maybe your inlaws delivery of the request was the problem. I give my children a lot of information about why we're doing something, how long we'll be doing it, etc. It sounds like your FIL did handle the situation with a lot of information, but maybe not so much with your MIL. If he's tired, thirsty, uncomfortable or whatever, he's going to need information about when he can feel better and what to do about it now. So, I probably wouldn't say "we'll go home soon." because that's too vague. I'd address how he was feeling and give him as much information about when we'd be home and that I'd be sure to give him a drink then. I may even find a shady spot and sit down for a minute for the 4yo to recover. Maybe next time, she can bring a water bottle for walks.

My kids are used to me and don't do as well with my inlaws or even my parents. My inlaws and parents grew up where kids just did what you said as soon as you said. I've had to explain to my kids that if they are doing a task with their grandparents, they must act on requests quickly. That's what worries my mom...that she won't be able to get them to act fast enough to keep them safe.

I noticed on your signature that you've had a lot of losses. Maybe what your in laws are worried about is your son having "Highly Prized child issues."http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/septoct2007p14.shtml

I read this article and found some similarities to how I treat my oldest who was born a year after I had a still-birth. The article does seem a little overgeneralized, but could be useful. At 4, I don't think your child would fit this profile at all. He sounds pretty normal for 4.


----------



## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

I run into a similar issues with my parents, although they know better than to express their feelings to me. I think it stems from the fact that we no longer control our children through fear. Respect and fear look pretty similar and when I was a child I toed the line because I didn't want to get smacked. It's hard for that generation to understand that we are trying to raise kids who have self esteem, confidence and the ability to make good decisions. One of the consequences of raising empowered kids is that sometimes they use that power in ways that challenge traditional paradigms of adult-child relationships.


----------



## llwr (Feb 24, 2009)

Well I hope it's normal 4 yo behavior because it sounds like mine! I really am trying to work on respect with her, but it's a process. I find I need to prepare her what to expect and what's expected of he,r and remind her constantly to use her "nice" voice.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> When I was reading your OP, I wondered if maybe your inlaws delivery of the request was the problem. I give my children a lot of information about why we're doing something, how long we'll be doing it, etc. It sounds like your FIL did handle the situation with a lot of information, but maybe not so much with your MIL. If he's tired, thirsty, uncomfortable or whatever, he's going to need information about when he can feel better and what to do about it now. So, I probably wouldn't say "we'll go home soon." because that's too vague. I'd address how he was feeling and give him as much information about when we'd be home and that I'd be sure to give him a drink then. I may even find a shady spot and sit down for a minute for the 4yo to recover. Maybe next time, she can bring a water bottle for walks.
> 
> ...


I can pinpoint in each instance some of the triggers that led DS to respond as he did: with FIL I had told both him and ds that FIL would be holding the leash the whole walk and that ds wouldn't get to hold it. FIL decided on the walk to let ds have the leash for awhile. So the issue would have been avoided entirely if he had stuck to the boundaries I laid out before the walk, OR if FIL had explained the limits of holding the leash...that he would need it back right away if they saw any other dogs.

With MIL, I'm not sure why she let him walk off by himself down the path. I don't see why she and her other grandson couldn't just come home at that point (they only stayed a couple more minutes anyway). Also, DS was hot, tired, and thirsty, and he'd been on that path many times and knew how to get back to MIL's house, and he could probably see DH and I just ahead on the path. Plus, DS's cousin is 11 and I think MIL was comparing the two and expecting more of DS all of a sudden (cousin was visiting from Texas).

I think you're absolutely right about MIL's generation having grown up with kids doing what they were told when they were told with no questions asked (and certainly no complaints or "No's"!). But of course they used fear, and as Vancouver Mommy said, there is a very fine line between fear and respect. I think adults get the two confused when they are expecting a child to do what they said as if they are a robot or a slave receiving a command with no thoughts or feelings of their own.

It's a strange feeling to think I can't let DS go with MIL or FIL by himself because they can't handle him. But we are working on it, and we are seeing improvement (which MIL wouldn't notice since she's not with him as much) so I guess I'll just trust that we are doing the best we can and DS will eventually get it and not be this way forever.


----------



## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Others have said this already, but I'll say it again, your son sounds like a typical 4 year old.

While I recognize and can totally relate to his grandparents' frustration, I seriously question labeling your son's behavior as 'disrespect.' I doubt your son's motivation for not listening and not following directions is that personal; his behavior probably has little to do with how he feels about his grandparents. He's four: chances are his sole motivation is that he's doing what he wants to do because he wants to do it. And he wants to do it now.

Instead of focusing on your son's respect or perceived lack thereof, can your in-laws consider it a practical problem and focus on solutions? Have you found anything that helps your son follow directions that you can share with them? Are the IL's able to recognize when DS has simply had too much? Even adults have a hard time listening and cooperating when they're tired and hungry. My mother has a hard time recognizing my children's limits, then gets exasperated when they get whiney and uncooperative when those limits have been passed; I wonder if a similar thing might be happening with your ILs and son.


----------



## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bstandlee*
> 
> With MIL, I'm not sure why she let him walk off by himself down the path. I don't see why she and her other grandson couldn't just come home at that point (they only stayed a couple more minutes anyway). Also, DS was hot, tired, and thirsty, and he'd been on that path many times and knew how to get back to MIL's house, and he could probably see DH and I just ahead on the path. Plus, DS's cousin is 11 and I think MIL was comparing the two and expecting more of DS all of a sudden (cousin was visiting from Texas).


I agree that your DS sounds like a typical 4 year old, to me. It doesn't sound like your child has some kind of problem, it sounds like your MIL is concerned for his safety (which is great) and expecting him to follow commands (which is not untypical for many adults but her expectations are out of line with his age).

I quoted the above because I did want to say that if your MIL was dealing with 2 children and 1 wanted to walk a little longer I can understand why she didn't want to turn around as soon as your DS wanted to. Finding a compromise would have been ideal but possibly difficult if your DS was on the edge of a meltdown. In our family we probably would expect the 11 year old to put the needs of the 4 year old first--but that's sometimes hard on the older ones. So maybe she was torn between the different needs and unsure how to proceed.

As far as your MIL letting your DS walk alone down the path, would you have preferred that she physically stopped him? Maybe by picking him up? If my child were walking away from me when I needed her to stay close i would physically stop her and carry her if need be. Is she in good enough shape to handle that and gentle enough in terms of discipline to restrain a child without hurting them? Would it be ok with you for her to put your hands on your child in that manner? (I'd pick my own child up in that situation but wouldn't want my parents or in laws to do the same unless my child was in imminent danger.) Maybe MIL felt she couldn't stop him by any other means but words and if he refused to listen to her words she had no other recourse and that freaked her out. I don't know just throwing a different perspective out there.

ETA In anycase sounds like both she and FIL got in power struggles with your DS (easy to do with a 4 year old) and are focusing on "he needs to obey" rather than "how could this have gone differently"...


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i didn't read all the replies, just sorta skimmed so forgive me if this has already been said.

i am wondering how FIL presented the request for the leash, was it phrased as a question ie" can i have the leash please?" which leaves it open to be answered NO. or was it a demand ie" i need the leash now" which isn't a question.

also i am wondering why MIL felt like your ds needed to finish the walk. if he was tired, hungry, thirst, bored, etc maybe it would have been better to just walk home with him or offer a piggyback ride. i have no idea how long the walk was, but sometimes little kids poop out faster then we think. was it later in the day so he had been awake awhile and busy and was tired? and even when he walked away they didn't make sure he was with you? i would wonder about that. like they didn't call out to you "so and so is coming your way" just so you know he is behind you so you could wait up for him.

i would talk to ds about the leash thing, because it isn't really safe for him to have the leash if other dogs are coming so even if FIL asked for it in a question he should still hand it over. i also don't like the "don't say no to adults" because i am sorry but they have a right to say no. maybe it can't be helped and they have to do the thing anyways, but still.

h


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think he sounds like a normal child. I have found that my dd often tries to push the boundaries with her grandparents because she is used to them spoiling her and doesn't understand on the rare occasions when they have to switch from grandparent role to caregiver role. Maybe pointing out that he may just not understand the switch from fun grandparent to serious grandparent out would help. Maybe you could suggest that they tell him they aren't asking they are telling when he says no to them in situations where there isn't an actual choice. If they do this consistently it may help him identify the times when he does need to cooperate with them. Her kids were probably well behaved because they lived with her so they knew the warning tone, words, and looks well enough to judge when they could debate and when they could not. I am sure your son also knows those things about you too so I don't think you should worry because your child behaves differently towards them then their kids did.


----------



## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I'll throw this out there - is he hard to handle for you? What about others? If he is apt to just walk away and not listen (like the walk with MIL) that is really hard for other people to deal with. If it's my kid doing that, I go pick them up. If it is not my kid, it is very hard and unfair to everyone else to bow to their whim just because they are in a mood.

I think it is normal to challege a parent like that at 4yo, but unless your DS is on super comfortable terms with your ILs then it doesn't seem normal to me to be that contrary with people outside the immediate family. If your ILs are really abrasive and harsh in how they talk, maybe, but if they are fairly normal and they aren't super duper together lots close, then it seems unusual to me that your son would not recognize the difference in relationship and the social normalcy of allowing for them to have a stronger say than he might like.

Tjej


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> I'll throw this out there - is he hard to handle for you? What about others? If he is apt to just walk away and not listen (like the walk with MIL) that is really hard for other people to deal with. If it's my kid doing that, I go pick them up. If it is not my kid, it is very hard and unfair to everyone else to bow to their whim just because they are in a mood.
> 
> ...


The majority of the time he is peaceful, cooperative, and respectful. He is very independent and strong willed though, so he definitely has times when he's very challenging.

We had been with my ILs a lot recently and I think that's why he was contrary with them. It's the first (and second) time that's happened. As I said before, he definitely won't be allowed out with them alone until he shows he can handle it. And we're being extra vigilant in being consistent with him.

I really think he's ok...especially after reading the responses here. He's just 4, very independent, and was placed in 2 situations where the expectations of him and for him weren't as clear as they should have been. We've already seen progress just in a few days of really working and being consistent with him.


----------



## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Sorry I'm short on time and didn't have a chance to read all replies.

But it sounds like grandparents are "do this because I say so" type and not treating your child with respect. Respect is a two way street.

He expressed that he was tired and wanted to go back. He was just expressing his physical limitations and desire. I think you guys need a new approach. One that involves lengthy explanations and lots of patience. Stop trying to control and persuade him. Just explain and wait for him to understand. There will be a lot of repeating because kids don't get it the first time.

It is often humiliating to be sternly corrected (log leash) and denied a basic right (rest from his walk).

Remember the FEELINGS that are behind tantrums are valid. All feelings are valid, remember?

Instead of saying you can't go on walks anymore with grandpa because you don't listen to him say something like "grandpa was very worried about you getting hurt or lost because you would not stay with him ... you could get hurt and he would not know and that would make him very sad because he loves you"

BUT and this is a big BUT: if grandma and grandpa don't start treating him with respect and carefully explaining their concerns and intentions he will never learn anything and continue to grow frustrated by their treatment of him. If they can't do that then he shouldn't go on walks but it is by NO MEANS your sons fault.

:hug


----------



## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

Any chance it is just agenerational thing. You know, that your in-laws raised their children to do whatever they sdaid, right away, or ELSE.... You know... Since this is in the GD forum, I would imagine you might parent quite differently.

Sounds like a 4 yo to me. It is just that some people have different expectations.


----------



## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

A couple of thing jump out at me... yes the ILs seem rather "do as I say" and intolerant of resistence, but then will succumb to the resistence and allow him to set the terms (it's a grandparenty trait for some but, like buying the tantruming child a candy bar, this will lead to a very troubling pattern), only to complain later. So basically this is also sounding like a probable failure on their parts too (or at least MIL's since she's the one providing the accts of both events). Your 4 yo definitely needs to work on learning things from his end but from the sound of things they need to learn to be armed with an active intent to maintain the situtation instead of giving up even if he gets difficult.

For example:

*The FIL acct involves the child snatching the leash back but under the circumstances--of needing to maintain a safe taut grip to control the dog in the face of potential risk due to the other dogs and of facing an objecting child--this seems to me either irresponsible (like maintaining a loose enough grip for a 4 yo to quickly grab it back might imply he also wasn't ready for the possiblity of your dog suddenly lunging toward the other dogs and could have just as easily lost the leash that way as well) on the FIL's part or else it's more likely he had not yet fully gained control of the leash and the gained-lost-regained played out something more like a tug of war before he gained control. Also you mention the FIL gave him the leash on the walk after the 3 of you discussed that only FIL could hold it... it's possible that your son felt FIL had veto power to call rules off and that all of the things discussed and/or normally expected were up for negotiation as well and was pushing to see where the line was. FIL taking the leash showed him a line that he didn't want/like so he sat down and tantrumed right? But again, as soon as he stood up and regained his tear free more pleasant demeanor--and hopefully the other dogs were well clear--FIL returned the leash (but after what he'd just gone through was it a prudent judgement call that should another safety issue arise before return home your son should be holding the leash for round 2? or was this just an indulgence/reward for ending the tantrum?) ---A series of potential contributing factors that may have amplified the problem, all of which have solutions and alternatives that can be enacted by the adult.

*The MIL walk involves a number of events I find troubling. She tells him he must stay with her, but he voices discontentment and she quickly reverses saying he can have his way and go back with the pair of you if he runs to catch up. But what happens when he chooses neither of her stated versions but chooses to head back home without running to catch up, she does what exactly? I'm truly unclear because it seems missing from her story... does she just return to walking with the older child and ignore him because it's too much trouble? or is there something specifically omitted? (either could be very alarming signs to me) ----She could have done any number of things differently in my opinion... but if you were really close when this all started, 2 very simple low effort ones were: she could have called out to you two so you'd know he needed to catch up or they could have walked back with him far enough for you to hear them calling to be sure that he was under the supervision of another trusted adult before turning her back on him. Really, unrealistic expectation or not she probably could have persuaded him to finish the walk... I had to hold my 2 yo to unreasonably odd expectations while tired and hungry on occassion due to needing to hurry to catch a bus. 

So you might need to weigh what they are actually like in the face of trouble to determine whether they need tools and suggestions or whether fresh ideas is not enough and they need to not be in charge of him in your absence. I have no idea what they're like, or if/how much they contributed, just that something about it all doesn't mesh right. (Only you really know if your son or the ILs behave in keeping with what is accounted for in the stories... so despite my rambling late night assessment, only you can pinpoint what's wrong and what isn't.) But the main thing that jumps out at me is: Stating an expectation in non-negotiable phrasing, is like putting on your work boots, you have to be prepared enforce a non-negotiable at whatever costs because it's *non-negotiable* (so this is also a good reason to use them sparingly, especially if you're lazy like I try to be)... Yet both stories contain a command followed by negotiations and both result in the child getting better end of things... now some, or possibly all, of this could be MIL's creative embellishing for more vivid impact because she wants him to change (and wishes you to feel guilt or just the same urgency she does), but since these are portrayed as extremely rare exceptions to his behavior you have to consider all possible triggers because it's likely to be helpful in reducing the reappearance of the behaviors. It's never about assigning blame on all one person--especially the more dependent, less mature party--but rather about assessing how all the things that fell short contributed to the end result and how to keep or get the train back on the track in similar situations in the future. It takes a multi-pronged effort to fix things... you only have control over what you do, but part of what falls in that is determining the scope of responsibility for your son when you're not present. I say trust your gut, things are often wrong when they feel wrong (you can trust it even if none of us vailidate what it's telling you).

As far as your son, I feel his behaivor was pretty age specific... but I also feel both of these incidents ultimately involved safety issues (if he was sitting on the ground crying while the other dogs were a possible threat then the safety violations double up in the FIL story) and I wouldn't really want my 4 yo to expect to debate a safety issue in the moment. (In fact we have created an arrangement to use 'safe/safety', sometimes along with a gesture in case noise is a factor ins incase sound is an issuei i , as a code word/cue for "immediate silence, cease motion, look at the leader/adult to listen for instructions, and respond quickly" --something like 'danger' or even an agreed upon nonsense word could work too... we tried 'danger', selected by the kids who were really hoping for some kind of whistle or siren/alarm tone, but as we live and often walk in urban areas 'danger' is a word that would garner attention from other random people on the street, plus I like 'safe' because it can get reused/repeated in the discussion after the emergency has passed and so the twins started picking it up as listening vocabulary between 1-1.5 yo). So it might be prudent to just approach it from what you'd like to see in a matter of safety issues with him and what/why it was unsafe rather than discussing it as respect which is still likely a more confusing abstract concept to explain to a 4 yo. Good luck figuring it out.


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Your child sounds very normal.

With the dog -- your child is 4 and could not perceive danger. FIL should have told him that other dog makes it unsafe, I will give it back after that dog is gone. Your 4 year old protest --- oh well that is what 4 year old do. I would set up new rules about walking the dog and leash. You must give it back when an adult says so - it is a matter of safety. Stating the rule before the leash is handed over. Your child felt cut off, which is understandable however, IMO this is like a kid running out into the street.

Even with your mil situation, there was a "perceived" danger and your son didn't listen.

So in someways there is a listening issue that does need to be manage with your child and IL's.

I don't think 2 wks is a reasonable amount of time from running off to denial/discipline. However, I do understand your MIL. She is older than you and cannot chase after a 4 year old. A better solution would be talking to your child about specific behavior and coming up with an immediate consequence. Unless you are OK with your child walking off like that. I would not be but the correction has to be immediate. Your child did do something unsafe.

I do not think this really a respect issue but working on managing a child better. Yes, there are times there can be absolutes. You don't run or walk out of eye shot of an adult. If an adult tells you to give the leash back you do. You should prep your child about expectations. Your il's were not being unreasonable in their complaints in the situations you described.

Also, if your mil's kids had different personalities than her she might not have the skills to manage them. Maybe help give her the skills instead of being critical. Help set the situations up for good behavior. It might mean reminding your mil that your child is difficult to deal with when he is tired and she will need to make sure walk after nap time and a snack. However, even if your child is tired the walking/running off should be unacceptable - that is a safety issue.


----------



## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HappyHappyMommy*
> 
> *This comment by your MIL would concern me greatly. I want my children to know that it's ok to say "No" to any adult if they feel unsafe*. So I would never feel comfortable saying to my child that it's not ok to say "no" to certain people and I'm very careful about what I say to my children. With the situation of walking the dog, I would address it by saying beforehand "If you and FIL are walking the dog together, you can probably hold the leash most of the time, but sometimes FIL will need to hold the leash to help keep the dog safe. You can help FIL during those times by handing him the leash calmly and you can help the dog by letting him know what's happening." (I also find giving the child something to do, rather than just something not to do, helps a lot.)


I think that's well and good, but I can't see where there was any safety issues involved in the two examples the OP gave. The boy didn't want to do what he was told to do, so he did what he wanted to do instead. If it were my grandson, I think I'd feel the same way as your in-laws. I think, simply, that your MiL wants your son to respect and obey them when they make reasonable requests. If you're not ok with that and don't intent to compel him to obey his grandparents, then I'd limit contact between your son and your MiL and FiL because it'll just cause conflict and bad feelings toward your son and toward you for what they probably feel is your deficient

parenting in that area.

ETA: Just read some more of the replies before mine. There is nothing non-GD about expecting a pre-schooler to obey his parents or grandparents when they make reasonable requests. A lot of people go straight to the extreme and bring up issues of corrupted authority figures and safety or moral issues when we talk about children and obedience....but I don't see any of those issues here in this case. If anything, the only safety issue was the grandparents wanting to keep their grandson safe.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> I think that's well and good, but I can't see where there was any safety issues involved in the two examples the OP gave. The boy didn't want to do what he was told to do, so he did what he wanted to do instead. If it were my grandson, I think I'd feel the same way as your in-laws. I think, simply, that your MiL wants your son to respect and obey them when they make reasonable requests. If you're not ok with that and don't intent to compel him to obey his grandparents, then I'd limit contact between your son and your MiL and FiL because it'll just cause conflict and bad feelings toward your son and toward you for what they probably feel is your deficient
> 
> ...


I do expect DS to obey us and his grandparents (and any other person whose authority he is under) for reasonable (i.e. safe and morally right) requests. I never meant to imply I was ok with DS not obeying. My expectation is that DS should have listened to both MIL and FIL in each incident and he was given a consequence as a result of not listening. I also see how MIL and FIL don't have the same tools DH and I use with parenting DS. They don't feel safe taking him out alone, and I agree, until we all feel DS is more reliable in respecting/submitting to what MIL and FIL need to do to keep him safe. I realize DH and I can do a better job of educating them also and sharing more of our parenting tools with them if they are interested in learning them.

My concern was whether these incidences seemed to be pointing to something bigger than a normal 4-year old behavior. We are working with DS consistently in teaching him to listen and respect us (and in turn MIL and FIL) and, while he's by no means perfect, we are seeing progress. I am fairly confident he is a pretty normal 4 year old.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

OP-- I think you are handling things perfectly, and I think your son sounds like a totally typical four year old. Your MIL sounds a lot like my mom. I get all sorts of complaints about my three year old's "disrespect" from her. Like your son, some things my son refuses "disrespectfully" to do are safety issues...like not holding my mom's hand to cross the street which really ticks her off. We do have a rule he has to hold an adult's hand in the street.

I don't think this is an issue of *your son* not being able to handle being with his grandparents as much as it is an issue of *your MIL* not being able to handle appropriately and gently disciplining your son. My mom would come home after a walk in which DS refused to hold her hand crossing the street and say things like "Well if you don't want me doing x,y,z, what DO you want me to do?" I gave her a copy of a discipline book I use. I told her to stop him in his tracks and tell him they will not cross the street unless they are holding hands and if he chooses not to, they'll have to go home instead. I've offered her some solutions and ideas for what I find to be acceptable. I have told her I'm sorry he's not more respectful of her but he is a child. He is still learning respect. He isn't 16. Give him some time. Sounds like your MIL might need to hear something similar...."Here is how we suggest handling these safety issues, I'm sorry he's challenging you, I can assure you that we care about him respecting you and we are always working towards raising a respectful child. Now pass the bean dip please." An adult should be able to handle some disrespect from a four year old without getting her undies in a bundle, blaming the parents, and taking it personally. Not to mention, feel free to remind her that your entire family has experienced great loss, and while it isn't okay for your son to be disrespectful, you do understand and hope she understands that children frequently express their grief (and the stress/grief they perceive from you) by acting out. It is normal and will pass. Be gentle with yourself, OP. It doesn't sound like you're getting enough gentleness from the outside.


----------



## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bstandlee*
> 
> I do expect DS to obey us and his grandparents (and any other person whose authority he is under) for reasonable (i.e. safe and morally right) requests. I never meant to imply I was ok with DS not obeying.


Oh, I don't think you implied that mama.  I was replying to some of the people who replied to your OP; not to your OP directly.


----------



## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I don't think your DS was being disrespectful.

Disobedient, sure, but you can't expect obedience from a 4yo without properly beating or coercing them into it. If anyone was disrespectful it was the grandparents. They should respect his limits, he is not yet able to hold the leash on his own or walk by himself safely and he needs help- not lessons about safety that he is unable to comprehend.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

4 yo is an age of independence and clearly your DS feels comfortable enough in his abilty (good job mom!) to disregard the judgement of your ILs and discern for himself his own level of safety. In the situation of the dog, he had a tantrum. So what? He wanted to prove he was capable and he wasn't allowed...he got over it and apologized...what more could ASK of 4yo? In the latter as it happened your MIL was wrong, he knew the way, he knew you were just ahead, he could see you...he had a need for comfort and he met that need on his own without the permission of his grandma who clearly didn't understand when he said "I am hot and tired, I want to go home." that he meant it. The question is if they had been MILES from home and you were no where around...would he have done the same?

Your ILs need respect, sure, but they also need to respect him and his needs. Rather than take the leash off of your DS your FIL could have helped hold it. Rather than dismiss the needs of your DS your MIL could have phoned your cell and asked you to wait up because DS had changed his mind and wanted to go back.

I think you can expect a 4 yo to listen to rules and follow them IF the rules make sense and take into account their needs, abilities, skills and knowledge...not when they are randomly imposed without consideration for these things.

I think you're doing a good job with him!

.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I really, really, really don't like the way people throw around the words "respect" and "disrespect." Most people equate those words with "obedient" or "disobedient" when it comes to children. I don't think that an occasionally disobedient young child is being disrespectful; a 4yo simply lacks the ability to control strong emotions. A 4yo has trouble rationalizing that adults might know what's best for him.

People who say that's "disrespectful" are making the issue about themselves rather than about the child. It's egocentric.

I don't think your son was being disrespectful. I think he was overwhelmed with emotion in the first scenario and handled it poorly....you know....because he's *4*. In the second scenario, it sounds like your MIL was making him stay with her for no other reason than that she could. I think that is disrespectful of the child.


----------

