# Questioning GD after a playgroup with mainstream moms.



## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Hi all. I lurk here a lot, and get great ideas. I don't normally have a lot to say, but today I'm feeling kind of insecure as a parent and probably need reassurance more than anything.

Here is the issue: I meet with several moms every week, some of whom are like me, slightly crunchy, but most of whom are pretty mainstream, though they all are pretty gentle with their kids. Okay, a few of them regularly smacks their kids' hands. But other than that, they don't get physical, and the kids seem well-adjusted enough. I definitely am not into judging others, so in my book, though I would never do that, I do not feel they are being bad mothers. They are also into saying "no" a lot more than I would. I guess I'm wondering if in fact they're techniques are working better than mine.

The kids are all 22 months - two years old. I noticed that my ds was wandering a lot (trying to get out of the backyard to the front (there was no gate)) and throwing sand and other objects. At home, I let him throw balls, but will redirect him if he throws anything else. That doesn't help a whole lot. But he is very into sports. He loves watching and doing (as much as he can) baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. Whereas the other kids don't seem to be into throwing and sports and stuff. I think his love of baseball is also why he's always finding a stick and waving it around, which obviously would make other moms uncomfortable. Whenever I see that I take away the stick. But I do let him play with bats at home and sticks if we're alone. I fear I'm being inconsistent. If we're at a park, I also let him wander as far as he wants, as long as it's safe. So am I encouraging him to wander away from me, which would be bad in some cases?

I'm starting to ramble, so let me just close up here. What are your thoughts? I appreciate complete honesty. I actually don't want just to be reassured. I do think it's good to evaluate oneself and see if there isn't something better that can be done. Although I don't want to stifle ds, I am re-evaluating my role as a parent. I feel like maybe I haven't taken charge enough in his discipline. I remember a line in the Sears' Discipline Book that has been crossing my mind all afternoon. They were saying how we have to teach them how to say no to themselves because they are going to have to do that for themselves in life. I think I've been using GD as a way of skirting my role in teaching him how to say no once in a while. At least with the mainstream moms I had playgroup with, they seem to have definite ideas about what is not allowed. I really don't have a lot of limits I feel are worth enforcing except for issues of safety. But maybe I should try harder. For example, maybe I should tell ds he isn't allowed to go beyond a certain border at the park. Or that throwing sand is inappropriate (though I really don't see that as inherently wrong. It's just that it is kind of disrespectful to throw other people's sand around and out of the box).

Or maybe in the long run, ds is better off that he hears yes more often than no. It is possible that today's good behavior will be tommorrow's rebellion. I don't know.

BTW, I've read other GD books besides the Sears', so I'm not getting all of my ideas from them.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I don't have much to say, your son sounds very sweet and curious and NORMAL!

I think it is a good idea to teach him not to throw sand at people, it might take lots of redirection and showing him where to throw the sand. Make it fun, "Hey, why don't we dump the sand in this hole," instead of "We don't throw sand at people." Or if he is throwing it out of the box you could try, "Mrs. XXXX likes to keep her sand in the box, let's respect that." Even if he doesn't pick up right away it is a good idea to teach him to be respectful of others.

As for the sticks, he is still little enough that is if he is too near another child and swinging you can pick him up and move him away slightly. If you want you can explain that you moved him because you didn't want the other child to accidently be hit. It will let your son play his way and give comfort to a worried mother.

I let my child travel away from me at the park as well. If she gets beyond my comfort zone I am the one who physically moves closer to her. Soemtimes, that is what one has to do when she has children.

I think you can wait to teach him to say no. Trust me, no matter what that moment will arive and soon! :LOL We don't have any definite rules either, in my oppinion living by principles is better than by rules.


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## *Lisa* (Dec 19, 2002)

I don't think that it's necessary to say no just for the sake of teaching your child how to say no... Having a rule just for the sake of having a rule only teaches that rules are pretty arbitrary (and therefore, perhaps, unimportant).

It sounds as though you DO have limits (based on safety concerns and respect for others). I don't see the need for more than that, quite honestly. I think that you can do the things that you've been doing in a way that is consistent. For example, it's reasonable to say, "We don't play with sticks when there are other kids around because somebody could get hurt" or "It's okay to throw sand, but not out of the sandbox (or at other people)" or "At playgroup it's important that you stay in the back yard."

In my family, we definitely have things that we do at home that aren't allowed other places. We sit on our kitchen table, for example, and jump on the bed. We don't do that anyplace else. I don't worry at all about that being inconsistent. DD (at age 2 1/2) understands that there are different rules in different places. This seems consistent with what we all do as adults (for example, I might walk around in my underwear and eat from the Ben and Jerry's container at home, but I wouldn't do that anyplace else :LOL ).


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
They are also into saying "no" a lot more than I would. I guess I'm wondering if in fact they're techniques are working better than mine.

The kids are all 22 months - two years old..... At least with the mainstream moms I had playgroup with, they seem to have definite ideas about what is not allowed. I really don't have a lot of limits I feel are worth enforcing except for issues of safety. But maybe I should try harder. For example, maybe I should tell ds he isn't allowed to go beyond a certain border at the park. Or that throwing sand is inappropriate (though I really don't see that as inherently wrong. It's just that it is kind of disrespectful to throw other people's sand around and out of the box).

My son is also in this age group. He's in a mixed-aged playgroup. Every child in the playgroup is at a different place developmentally, even those who are the same age. So that's the first thing to keep in mind: even if you all had the same ideas about what constituted appropriate discipline and good behavior, the children would all be different anyway. They are all good at different things and all interested in different things, even though they are toddlers.

The second thing is, you get to keep thinking about how to respond to your child's behavior as he changes. Maybe you haven't said a lot of "no" because you haven't really needed to say it, because you have set up every situation so incredibly well. You get to choose what behavior you can tolerate at which age. They change a lot as they get older and I think we do, too.

I'm with you about being able to put up with a lot of age-appropriate exploration, running, throwing, etc. as long as it's safe. Why not? I might be a little more cautious than some of the moms and dads I see in the park and less cautious than others. I don't like parenting that's all about limiting behavior and constantly saying no, because there isn't as much verbal interaction. One fortunate side-effect of parenting respectfully is that you use more words with your children, which helps them get used to learning words. I think that's a significant benefit, and maybe worth a slightly messier looking interaction at age two.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa_and_Sarah*
In my family, we definitely have things that we do at home that aren't allowed other places. We sit on our kitchen table, for example, and jump on the bed. We don't do that anyplace else. I don't worry at all about that being inconsistent. DD (at age 2 1/2) understands that there are different rules in different places. This seems consistent with what we all do as adults (for example, I might walk around in my underwear and eat from the Ben and Jerry's container at home, but I wouldn't do that anyplace else :LOL ).

That is exactly the point I was going to make.
I really wanted my kids to wander, and get dirty and experiment. We have always had the home rules and the out rules. Kids really have no problem with this. Sometimes they need a reminder, but that's it.
Your guy is pretty little, but what you can do right now is just start talking to him. Talk about it a lot. In time, it will sink in, and before you know it, it'll be second nature to both of you.


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

goepark, IMO it sounds like you are right on track. If you are looking for research that supports what you are doing, check out Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting. (Yes, yet another book.) I think he'll give you the confidence that you are already doing what is best for your son in the long run.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I know a lot of moms who smack their kid's hands too, starting as babies, and I just don't understand and I don't feel bad about not doing it. I also see these babies/kids getting smacked/swatted on the hand for things that I don't think are "bad" behaviors. Kind of like what you're saying, I guess. I get suprised when we're just sitting there and the kids are playing together, and all the sudden a parent reaches out and swats the kid's hand, and I'm wondering "What the h*** was that for?" I'm sure the child is wondering the same thing. I haven't seen these kids do anything my DS doesn't do. Those parents just have different ideas of what is normal kid behavior, I guess.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
I noticed that my ds was wandering a lot (trying to get out of the backyard to the front (there was no gate)) and throwing sand and other objects. At home, I let him throw balls, but will redirect him if he throws anything else. That doesn't help a whole lot. .....If we're at a park, I also let him wander as far as he wants, as long as it's safe. So am I encouraging him to wander away from me, which would be bad in some cases?

I think it's wise to stop the throwing sand and stuff.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
I feel like maybe I haven't taken charge enough in his discipline. I remember a line in the Sears' Discipline Book that has been crossing my mind all afternoon. They were saying how we have to teach them how to say no to themselves because they are going to have to do that for themselves in life. I think I've been using GD as a way of skirting my role in teaching him how to say no once in a while. At least with the mainstream moms I had playgroup with, they seem to have definite ideas about what is not allowed. I really don't have a lot of limits I feel are worth enforcing except for issues of safety. But maybe I should try harder. For example, maybe I should tell ds he isn't allowed to go beyond a certain border at the park. Or that throwing sand is inappropriate (though I really don't see that as inherently wrong. It's just that it is kind of disrespectful to throw other people's sand around and out of the box).

Well, I think it is important to have clear limits. I dont think there need to be "a lot" of limits. But they do need to be clear and consistent. You say you only have limits in re:to saftey, but you let him throw sand and you let him wander around. I would give him a limit to how far he can go. Because while it is good to explore, it is good to teach him to stay near mama, and it will be critical later to have boundaries for how far he can go. The sand thing really bugs me because my daughter got a fistful of sand in her eyes thanks to a toddler your son's age, who's mother didnt teach him not to throw sand in people's faces. Throwing sand is dangerous. Ever had a scratched cornea? It sucks.

Anyway you wanted honesty so I gave it to you. I think you're on the right track. But yeah, raise your expectations. Kids tend to act the way we expect them to act. No need to hit his hands, ever. But explaining what the rules are is better than just chasing him around all the time. Plus, that's got to be exhausting.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
I fear I'm being inconsistent. If we're at a park, I also let him wander as far as he wants, as long as it's safe. So am I encouraging him to wander away from me, which would be bad in some cases?

My feeling on this is that it's going to be quite a while before you can rely on your ds to stick with you without supervision. I think that the real danger isn't in your parenting style leading him to wander, but in other parenting styles leading parents to rely on their kids *not* wandering. Yes, we want to teach them to stay with us, but I wouldn't stake my young child's safety on him doing that.

And you already are establishing limits at the park. As you wrote, he can go as far as he wants *as long as it's safe*. If you were letting him roam blocks away just so you wouldn't have to let him know that he was going too far, then yes, you'd probably want to rethink that. And, yes, the limits on how far he's going to be allowed to go will be inconsistent. I can't imagine taking ds to the park and keeping the same limits on wandering that I would have in a department store. Different places have different rules. Even different parks have different rules. If there's a pond, I need him closer. If it's fenced, I'm more relaxed. It makes life more complex, but they really will learn to pick up on the situation in time. You might want to determine exactly where your personal comfort zone is for this park, so you can be consistent in expressing the limit to him, but don't feel obliged to substitute the other mothers' judgment for your own. "If everyone else wouldn't let their kids jump off a four-inch high tree stump, would you?"









Quote:

They were saying how we have to teach them how to say no to themselves because they are going to have to do that for themselves in life. I think I've been using GD as a way of skirting my role in teaching him how to say no once in a while. At least with the mainstream moms I had playgroup with, they seem to have definite ideas about what is not allowed. I really don't have a lot of limits I feel are worth enforcing except for issues of safety. But maybe I should try harder.
I think sand throwing can be dangerous, to himself and others, so it would probably be a good idea to work on that. And I wouldn't encourage ignoring behaviors that are dangerous or inconsiderate of others just in order to keep a "yes" environment, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing. But I don't see much point to rules for the sake of rules. Yes, our kids are going to have to say no to things in life, but we want them to know why, so that they have both motivation for saying no, and the ability to tell when the rule doesn't apply. You've probably heard the story about the pot roast:

A young woman is making pot roast for dinner. Her husband watches her cut the end off of the meat and asks, "Why did you do that?" She says, "Because my mom always did." She gets curious, calls her mom and asks, "Why do you cut the end off the pot roast?" Her mom says, "Because your grandmother always did." She calls her grandmother and asks, "Why do you cut the end off the pot roast?" Grandma says, "Because my baking pan is too small." It was a 'rule' that made sense in one situation, but not in others, but because the daughter didn't understand the reasoning behind it, they couldn't see when not to follow it, and they ended up following it blindly.

Frankly, a lot of times I see parents who have rules that are apparently either for the parents' convenience (which isn't to say that our needs shouldn't be taken into consideration, but some people seem hellbent on teaching their kids to have as little impact on their lives as possible) or are hand-me-down rules ("I was never allowed to (whatever), so he can't either") which may or may not make sense in the current situation. I don't think that having a lot of rules is a sign of better parenting, and I don't think that having few rules is a sign of a lack of discipline. I think it depends on how you determine your rules and how you teach them.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I try to be very consistant. even if it means some boundries that don't nessecarily need to be enforced here but wil need to be enforced in other places. especially at that age. you can always broaden when they have a beter understanding of why semthing would be ok here and not there but at 2 i try to be as consistant as possible. I am thinking specifically about the stick and throwing sand. If he is into sports and base ball specifically give him the right equipment. swinging sticks around is just dangerous even if he is the only person close enough to get hurt. same with throwing sand. If you are consistant you just don't have to deal with it in public and your les likely to have to deal with a meltdown when you suddenly change the rules on him.

As for the boundries at the park I think it is just a good idea at two (or any age) to teach him to stay close by. that doesn't mean exploring has to be limited he just needs to know that grown up has to come with him. weather or not you decide coming with him and exploring is what you want to do is a descision that can be made at the moment (if you want to say yes fine say yes and go with him) but it needs to be understod that wandering off *alone* is not acceptable. That is how we handle the desire to explore while still staying conistant with saftety. I would assume you are with him when he starts to wander at the park. but if not you might want to consider that. Even my 2 year old knows where the bopundries for wandering in the park are just because we have been consistant with them and the same boundries are enforced with the big girls. But at the same time we go all over the park and into all the gardens an such and it is fine, they just can't go past the boundries without me. and anytime we go somewhere where wandering outside the boundrties migh tbe an issue the first thing we do is define the boundries. If what I want to do is sit and socialize then we only go places with easy boundries (fences) other wise I just accept that what I will be spending the majority of my time doing is teachign the boundry.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

you might see a lot of mainstream moms having more limits because they need to control their children more. There is a difference between giving limits around safety and just giving limits because we're too lazy to want to supervise, or other people might not like it and other (imo) stupid reasons like that.

having a limit on sand is fine. letting him play with sticks alone is also fine- and you can remind him that he can only do that when he is not with other children. and when you are at playgroup, he can't do that bc there are other kids around. I agree with the above poster who said there are different expectations for home and out and about. My dd is 23 months, and she more or less follows that. If she tries to climb on someone's table at playgroup, i redirect her (unless I know the host family does it too :LOL ) and mention that we only do that at home.

Often times, less is more. Besides, at this age, redirection is so much more effective than a bunch of limits that are too much to remember, and waaaay more effective than punsihment which teaches nothing but fear.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I had the idea that I had posted before on the issue of saying no and vocabulary acquisition. Here was the thread I posted awhile ago on some research on this subject:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...light=language

I hope it is helpful. I don't think it is worthwhile to say "no" in order that children internalize "no", as it seems like this is the precise opposite of what is good for children's furture learning.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Thanks everyone for reading my post and responding with such great points. It is so helpful to get feedback from like-minded moms. Even when it is disagreement, I know it's coming from the right place. I feel better about my discipline methods, though I do think I could use improvement (but who couldn't?).

I wanted to say that ds is usually very "good". He's always getting compliments by store clerks and waiters, etc. about how well-behaved he is. His grandparents also talk him up and compare him favorably to his cousin who is about the same age (we're trying to disabuse them of that). So I know what GD can do. I really feel it has worked for us. I guess lately with him hitting the two's, I've been questioning my parenting skills in general.

He is really into swinging and throwing though, so I'll need to work on that.

I don't have time to be too in depth, but here are some responses I wanted to make.

Evergreen - He wasn't throwing sand at anybody. I just didn't want him throwing it out of the box. I like the moving him idea, but I think the other moms don't like to see him with the stick period.

Lisa and Sarah -LOL about the Ben and Jerry's and underwear. I totally agree that there are different rules between home and being outside. I also agree that I can be consistent depending on the context.

Captain Optimism - That's a good point. Every kid is going to be different. I also do have his long-term well-being in mind. I know that one day he will grow out of this stage, and I want him to do so without being excessively stifled.

cmb123 - I hope so. I do rely on repitition, no matter how often it's ignored.

Hunnybunny - I've heard good things about that book. Right now I'm into Easy to Love&#8230; and Playful Parenting.

Benji'smom - I totally agree. I really am against the hitting the hands thing. But these are such well-intended moms too.

Boston - Thanks for your honesty. Sorry about your dd's eyes. That sounds like it hurts. In my case, no one was around when he was throwing sand, but it is a case like yours that I fear will happen. But after repetition and redirection, then what?

Tortellinimama - Thank you for your post. I do think that different contexts call for different rules. I think I'll be able to feel them out as I go along. I never did think that I would mete out arbitrary boundaries. I like the pot roast story. Even if he doesn't understand yet, I need a good reason to have a rule in place, and later I'll be able to explain it to him. I also agree that too many parents discipline based on their own convenience. If nothing else, I always try to have ds' needs in mind. But that's another thing I was reconsidering today. Perhaps I do need to assert my own needs and conveniences above his once in a while and perhaps I do need to take the "boss" role more. I know that sounds bad, but I kind of felt that I needed to be that if he is going to grow up respecting me? This is still to be worked on, but it's a feeling I had today that needs to addressed.

lilyka - I guess I was wondering if allowing him to swing at bats would encourage swinging other objects. I do try to differentiate, but it's hard at his age. I follow close behind him always, and he expects that. I guess I was wondering if I should not let him "lead" the way, so that he feels I will automatically follow him.

newmainer - I agree. I don't want to punish him or come up with arbitrary rules. I think redirection is the best method for his age too.

Captain optimism - Thanks for the link!


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

i'm glad you posted this with examples.

my dd loves to throw sand, and i have consistently been on her for it (i am really, really working at consistent use of gd, so not having arbitrary 'rules' like i had growing up-it's a true challenge!)

BUT, i wanted to say that I realize from various posts in this thread that it's true, throwing sand is not inherently 'wrong', as long as she ensures that nobody else is around when she does it. this makes sense to me-she can experiment with how it feels and looks, and is definitely smart enough to distinguish when she can safely throw sand without endangering anyone else.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
If nothing else, I always try to have ds' needs in mind. But that's another thing I was reconsidering today. Perhaps I do need to assert my own needs and conveniences above his once in a while and perhaps I do need to take the "boss" role more. I know that sounds bad, but I kind of felt that I needed to be that if he is going to grow up respecting me? This is still to be worked on, but it's a feeling I had today that needs to addressed.

I think it's always a balancing act between our needs and conveniences and those of our kids. Some needs trump others. Sometimes this is pretty easy to decide. This afternoon, for instance, I was experiencing some nasty gastrointestinal aftereffects of having eaten moldy pita bread (really, really wish I had noticed the green part *before* eating so much of it...







), and my need to get into the bathroom immediately just had to come before ds's desire to be picked up. He wasn't thrilled, but, well, there wasn't much I could do, and I definitely didn't feel guilty about it. There are other times when it's not as clear-cut and it's harder to separate needs from wants and my right to my own desires from what's reasonable for ds to expect from his mom. I definitely think it's okay to decide in a given situation to do what's convenient for you, even if it wouldn't be your ds's first choice. I think it's good to question these decisions (but not become guilt ridden), because we have to kind of play both roles in the negotiation between our desires and theirs, if you see what I mean, since they're too little to do much verbal negotiation.

I wouldn't consider this taking the "boss" role, though. I don't think you need to think of yourself as the boss in order to not constantly subjugate your desires to your kids'. I think there are more options for moms than being the boss or being a doormat. I also don't really agree with the idea that you have to be the boss in order to be respected. (I know you weren't saying that this is necessarily true, just that it was a feeling you were having today.) There are plenty of people I respect who have no power over me, and some who have, at times, been people I've actually formally "outranked" (in a work situation). I do think that regarding your own needs and desires as worthy of fulfillment (although not always insisting that they actually be fulfilled) can be a good thing in terms of garnering respect from others. I think it's just validating yourself as a being with intrinsic worth, and that self-view can carry over to others, including our kids.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Tortellinimama - Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was nodding at what you had to say. I definitely don't believe in the authoritarian model of parenting, so I'm kind of being facetious when I say "boss".

I have a lot to mull over, but I do feel reassured in most of what I do by everyone's responses. I think my crisis is over, and I can use this experience to modify my use of GD. I don't I was ever serious about doing away with it altogether!

Proudly AP: I think you're right about differentiating the context for when rules apply. I also think we should be extra cautious when other kids around. But if you're like me, you're probably already super vigilant when other kids are around.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Oh, I didn't really expect that you were any too close to deciding to become an authoritarian parent. I think I was writing as much for myself as you. We all have those days where you can almost see where the belief that being a "brick wall" parent is the right thing to do comes from. Fortunately for our kids, we manage to cling to rationality!


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## Bebelus (Jul 16, 2003)

This isn't directly responsive to your OP, but a tip I got (right here at MDC) regarding stopping sand throwing - immediately redirect with "raining sand." Meaning tell your child not to throw sand, and show him instead how to "rain" it through his hands (letting it pour through his fingers). This worked with my dd, and has with other kids too I've tried it with, so maybe it's worth a try. I think the sensation of the sand that way is distracting enough and it's an interesting enough activity to stop the throwing. HTH!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

geopark - the place you are at in your thinking feels very familiar to me! I remember thinking and feeling similar things with both my children around age 2. I think it is a normal part of your growing relationship to recognize that your child is reaching an age where discipline becomes a greater focus than it has been, and that your child will need some limits soon. He sounds like he is at that age -- the threshold of some new things. And it sounds like you are tuned in and ready for this transition.

The difficult part (for me) was sorting out what was really necessary based on my relationship with my kid from what was societal pressure -- voices in the back of my head telling me to "be the boss." Sometimes that 2nd voice was stronger than the first, you know? And its not always easy to sort out which is which.

As far as consistency -- I found that my kids could *always* and easily distinguish that some behaviors are okay in some situations but not in others. Honestly, it was a breeze. They are smarter than we give them credit for sometimes.

I wonder if it would be helpful if the mamas in your group came up with some general "rules for playgroup." If not holding stick is important to everyone, then I imagine your child could learn that "we don't play with sticks at playgroup."

I wish the other mamas would stop smacking their kid's hands though.







Thats a very strartling and upsetting thing to experience.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

I have always set limits when we go places, like at home. "here are your boundaries. You can't go past the fence, this tree and this bench. You may go any where in between these things." It may mean I have to move about to see them. I am fine with that. I also have to provide reminders. There are other limits - "No throwing things unless you ask first, no hitting, pinching, biting or using a violent voice." Now these things are known and I do not go over them. Plus, my girls are past the biting, pinching and hitting stage (except with each other). I agree that if you are gathering with a particular group, especially at a home, together decide the rules. I am a much more laid back mom than most moms. I do not mind sticks, climing trees, climbing to the top of the swing set, etc. I do not mind wandering as long as its in the boundaries I set. But, many moms are bothered by my "lack of involvement" is a term I have heard. As long as my girls are being respectful and following my pre-set rules, I am out of it. Their imagination flows much better with me on the sidelines. But, in a situation where I am part of a group, we must try to come to a compromise together of what can be done or not be done.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

michelle - your dds are the same ages as my boys! I tend to sit on the side too, and have been critisized. Other moms are shocked that I don't stand behind my 4 yo and "spot" while he climbs. My view is that he is in control of his body, won't try anything he can't handle, and has developed a strong confidence in his ability to climb and be safe as a result of the independence. Your post also reminded me that its a lot easier to chase one 2 yo. around than it is to follow 2 older kids constantly. Boundries are useful things when you have more than one kid to watch, esp. kids with strong running legs!


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Mamaduck,

"won't try anything he can't handle"

I feel very strongly about that statement. If we trust them and allow them to trust themselves, they will develop (or not lose use of) the ability to know what they can and cannot do. It drives me NUTS to hear my mom constant tell the girls to be careful or don't do that, you'll fall. Yeah, they will now because you made them mis-trust their own judgment. Samantha was about 15 or 16 months old when she climbed to the top of the playground "gym" bars all on her own. She was so proud. My back was turned. My first reaction when I turned and saw her up on top of this spiral of bars was to say, "don't fall" but I held my tongue. She turned, grinned at me and climbed down. I have trusted her ever since. And she has no fear of heights. It is hard at times. Beth is not so confident, especially since starting school. I honestly believe it is because too few people trust children.

I think overall it is important to remember that we are born with natural instincts on parenting and many other things. I think we need to learn/remember to trust ourselves and our children rather than "listen" to what everyone else says or does. It has been a hard lesson to learn. We constantly get conflicting information. But, our instinct is all we need, IMO.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Bebelus, what a great idea! I'm going to do that. Honestly, ds doesn't even play with sand all that much. But the next time I get a chance, I'll do that. Just today ds had a grand ole time playing in the rain, and he's been talking about it, so he will "get it".

Mamaduck, it's nice to have some company. I understand you about whether the questions are coming from me or the main stream voice in my head. I try to be conscious of that and have varying degrees of success filtering the alien voices out. I have always used such opportunities to question myself and use the time for self-reflection. I think that I do have room for growth, but I also feel that my use of GD is reinforced, especially after hanging out with other GD moms. But it's good to know that others have hit this doubt at the two stage. I can easily see how that happens.

mpeel, I wonder how my ds would respond to setting boundaries. Do you think two is still too young yet (not even)?

As for not interfering, I have been trying to do more of that too! Not "hovering" over your children's play is a concept found in the Continuum Concept, Montessori, and other philosophies. But I tend to want to hover, so I have to break myself of that habit. I think this goes along with my transitional phase right now. When he was an infant, I felt I had to be omnipresent. But now as a toddler, he needs space and he needs to feel that he is capable (and doesn't need mama to do everything for him).


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

ditto Bebelus,
We always did the raining sand thing. And for us, "No throwing sand," has been a consistent rule. We usually play at busy parks, and I don't feel that it is possible for my son to always judge whether or not the sand will hit someone. On the roaming issue, I let my son roam as far as he likes, and even try to stretch my own safety comfort zone. I do not follow after him unless it is getting unsafe (near a street, etc.) I believe this helps him find his own limits.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

I've taken bits out of your original post, as I'm not sure how to quote in sections....



goepark said:


> The kids are all 22 months - two years old. I noticed that my ds was wandering a lot (trying to get out of the backyard to the front (there was no gate)) and throwing sand and other objects. At home, I let him throw balls, but will redirect him if he throws anything else. That doesn't help a whole lot. But he is very into sports. He loves watching and doing (as much as he can) baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. Whereas the other kids don't seem to be into throwing and sports and stuff. I think his love of baseball is also why he's always finding a stick and waving it around, which obviously would make other moms uncomfortable. Whenever I see that I take away the stick. But I do let him play with bats at home and sticks if we're alone.
> .........
> Or that throwing sand is inappropriate (though I really don't see that as inherently wrong. It's just that it is kind of disrespectful to throw other people's sand around and out of the box).
> 
> ...


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I'm just subscribing to this thread because I have learned so much from reading it.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
I guess I was wondering if allowing him to swing at bats would encourage swinging other objects. I do try to differentiate, but it's hard at his age.

I think that they know what a bat is for, but may utilise another object for the same purpose if they can. I don't think its because they don't know the difference, but more that they have seen that the shape of said object can be used for the same purpose. Its good use of their brain if you ask me!







My ds definately knows what you use a golf club for. Heck, he even knows some of the TYPES of clubs. He doesn't talk much yet, but this morning waved his putter at me going "p..p...p..." But he will pretend to use a ruler, a shoe horn, a stick....just about anything he can get his hands on....as a golf club too...just because he enjoys the action of swinging, putting etc I guess. I suppose its no different to a bloke who swings imaginary golf clubs every now and then.









I guess its just another case of redirecting. If the swinging ruler gets to dangerous, its time to put the proper (well, toy) golf club in his hand, take him outside and let him at it with the plastic balls.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Mrs. Otago, that's very perceptive that you noticed that there was no fence. The mom who hosted is the one mom I kind of wonder about sometimes. She doesn't have a gate in front of her stairs either. And not only that, at the end of the playgroup, she told me that there was poison ivy around this area of the yard that all the kids were playing in at one point. That's a whole nother thread.

Boys can be more physically active, so I think moms of daughters sometimes are less understanding of all their activity. But I like the fact that ds is so sporty (I like sports too). I want to encourage that in him, but still teach him how to be careful around others.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I only had a chance to skim some of the responses, so forgive me if I'm repeating what has already been said.

I think kids are smart enough to know that certain things are allowed in certain situations. We can jump on the couch at home, but not at grandma's house (well, not at dh's mom's house). Ds can throw sand if no one else is around, but if other kids are playing nearby, then he cannot. Likewise, he can wave a stick around all he wants if no one else is nearby, but if it's crowded or if kids are often running by, then it's a game best left for another time.

I could have written your OP almost every time we finish a visit with my SIL and her dd (dh's neice). I think SIL is a great mom, but her ideas of what is allowed and what isn't are very different than mine. For instance, she doesn't allow ANY jumping on ANY furniture because, as she said "then she'll think she can do it anywhere." She puts gates up on the doorways so her dd will stay in the one room. She uses "no" constantly. (In fact, she uses it so much that my ds, before he was even talking, began mimicking her after a visit, saying "no no no Michela"). She's not allowed to go into the backyard barefoot or if it's too cool out. She's not allowed to climb on the big ottoman. These are all things I have no problem with ds doing.

During these visits I'm often left feeling like an overly permissive parent, but then I remember to just look at ds. He is a (usually) very well behaved kid. And whatever dh and I are doing is working pretty well (usually!) for our family.

So I just suck it up and let ds go ahead and go outside when it's cold even while she's explaining to her dd while she can't. I don't expect her to change her parenting style to conform to mine, so I can't feel obligated to change mine to conform to hers.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm glad the issue of "different rules in different places" has been raised. This was something that worried me. My boys are allowed to jump and climb on the couch, pull off the cushions etc - which is fine by me. But I was always worried that if I permitted that behaviour at home they would think it was ok elsewhere. I suppose I am very conscious of it, as I remember my SIL commenting on how "unruly" my niece and nephew were for climbing on her couch. Is telling them when we are out enough to mean they will eventually register that couch-climbing is an at-home activity only?

I have to say I haven't really had a problem when visiting to date, so maybe it is, and I've not been giving my ds's enough credit for "getting it."!


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## mariamaroo (Aug 15, 2004)

I have been feeling similarly lately. My girl is 19 mos. and we don't really have any 'rules' per se, although there are ... I don't know, expectations? or just 'the way we do things'. I have been feeling too lax sometimes, or too lazy, maybe, because I don't really do the rule thing, and rely more on constant supervision (and I feel lazy?!).

We have experienced the differing standards in different places, and it seems fine with dd. I just say 'no, we don't climb on the table at Dave's house' and remove her, and she does ok with it even though she is allowed to climb on some of the tables at home. I worry that I say 'no' too much, though I always follow it with an explanation. She has started saying it to herself, though, which I don't love (even though it's really cute, in her little high-pitched melodious voice: 'Noooo Phoebe, nooooo!'). She is not upset or afraid when she says it, she sounds like she's having fun, but I worry anyway. Of course I do.

So many worries and insecurities; I could easily get off topic. But I'm glad for the reassuring posts I've read here.


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