# Car seat tech



## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

X Posted (mostly) in my tribal area

My son's dad has an Evenflo Triumph Advance Deluxe car seat for our son (http://www.evenflo.com/Homepage/Prod...d-cb460e254ea8). He's 21 lbs, 31 inches and 15 months old. The car seat rear faces from 5-35 lbs. I installed the seat rear facing in his car and told him to have it checked because he doesn't have bottom latches and I wanted to make sure it was installed with the seat belt right.
He called the Bourne, MA fire station (there is one person in Bourne who is a car seat tech) and got it in today. The guy told him that because of Andrew's size (that's our son's name) he is better off forward facing and he turned the seat around. According to the manual it is good for rear facing until 35 lbs, according to car seat safety sites and the AAP site, children are better rear facing as long as possible.
Am I missing something? Is there anything I can do (besides turning it around)


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Turn it back around, pointing out that the firestation person was giving wrong advice, perhaps he thought he was asking a different question? Show him the advice of the aap and whatever else if he needs the reassurance.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

That was my plan (turning it, showing him evidence). I already said that the guy was wrong but I'm pretty sure he thinks I am. He's one of those "but the authority says" kind of people. Makes a lot of my parenting choices difficult- co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, circ, ect.
I meant is there anything I could do about this person telling people that forward facing is better for over 20 lb children? I'd hate for him to give that kind of "advice" to someone who isn't so snobby...er...informed


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Turn the seat back around, and email the SafeKids coalition to let them know he's giving out bad info!

ETA: for some reason it linked to Ohio, but you can pick your state from the drop down menu.







And good for you for questioning the tech!


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

If he wants to hear lots of techs tell him the guy was wrong, post on www.car-seat.org We have no problems telling people there are bad techs out there, like there are bad anything else. My son is still rfing at 3 (I'm a carseat tech) and it's the safest for him, especially at your son's age!


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Thank you so much!
I'll check that site out. He wouldn't know what to do on a message board if his life depended on it, though LOL
I have sent him many links (including that youtube one that I found on this board with crash tests and quotes) we'll see if he actually looks.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

The AAP, Safe Kids, NHSTA, and every car seat manufacturer recommend rear-facing to the limits of the seat (since he tends to listen to 'authorities'.







) Safe Kids are the ones who trained that tech, and he's going against their recommenations, so be sure to point that out


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

I did that today too... as I was changing the seat. His response? "Phil (the guy's name) said there's a new study. He said it's safer because of impact and legs..." I gave up and stopped listening.
The study must be so new that no one's heard of it.
I quoted all the real authorities, I sent him links to crash tests... I've done all that I can do. The seat will remain backwards though because otherwise there will be no car trips.
Thank you everyone


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yeah, that guy is full of it. Please make sure you email the head of the safe kids coalition in that area, and report him. I'm glad you knew better, but I shutter to think of other parents not knowing better!


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

crap i didn't know about this!!! i thought you turn them around at 20 lbs at least one year of age. Interesting. More research for me to do. Wo, when is it safe to turn them?


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Carseat techs in our area pretty much said the same thing to me. One of them even went as far as saying that high weight harnesses and rear-facing are a fad and I was wasting my money buying a relatively more expensive carseat (we have Radians).
I was pretty miffed to say the least and contacted our local Safekids coordinator. I was assured that she (Safekids coordinator) was going to put a stop to this misinformation and re-educate the the CPST's in the area.


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## MommyinMN (Oct 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
crap i didn't know about this!!! i thought you turn them around at 20 lbs at least one year of age. Interesting. More research for me to do. Wo, when is it safe to turn them?

They should remain rearfacing to the limits of their carseat, 30-35lbs depending on the seat and at least 2 if possible.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

:







sigh.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
crap i didn't know about this!!! i thought you turn them around at 20 lbs at least one year of age. Interesting. More research for me to do. Wo, when is it safe to turn them?





 It gets safer after 2, but the longer they stay rfing the better. All seats in the US rf to 30-35# and as long as they are under that and under the top of their seat, they are safe rfing. Like I mentioned earlier, my 26# 3yo is still rfing.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

I have never heard a single safety advantage of turning a child FF.

In this case my understanding is the inspector did NOT see the child.

And no, just because the MINIMUM standard to turn ff is a year, does not mean it's an appropriate choice if the child can otherwise remain RF.

All sources I've ever seen say RF to the limits of the seat is safest.

Do you have information explaining otherwise?

-Angela


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Actually the tech did see the child from what I understand, it was a safety inspection station.

There are newer research reports that state that if the child's feet are hitting the back of the seat they should be turned. You can actually find research on both sides of the issue.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

He was grossly incorrect. There is no information, NONE AT ALL, suggesting that forward facing such a tiny baby is correct.

Your tech was wrong and furthermore should be ashamed of himself.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mandynee22* 
I did that today too... as I was changing the seat. His response? "Phil (the guy's name) said there's a new study. He said it's safer because of impact and legs..." I gave up and stopped listening.
The study must be so new that no one's heard of it.
I quoted all the real authorities, I sent him links to crash tests... I've done all that I can do. The seat will remain backwards though because otherwise there will be no car trips.
Thank you everyone


There is no new study. If Phil said so, he's lying through his teeth. That, or your husband is....


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 

There are newer research reports that state that if the child's feet are hitting the back of the seat they should be turned. You can actually find research on both sides of the issue.

Uh, no, there are not.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

He didn't inform him of the option, he told him he was better off being FF. He told him there were new studies. (Studies I still haven't been able to find and niether has anyone I've talked to but you're welcome to inform me of them)

(to answer other stuff)

No, Andrew wasn't there. The tech was told his age and size.
He isn't my husband, not that it matters- just clearing it up.
I know that the tech did say it. Richie (Andrew's dad) thought RF was best (since that's what I told him) up until that time

The seat has been turned back to rear facing


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
Actually the tech did see the child from what I understand, it was a safety inspection station.

There are newer research reports that state that if the child's feet are hitting the back of the seat they should be turned. You can actually find research on both sides of the issue.

It was a fire station with a tech.
Andrew was not there.
Where is this research? I would genuinly like to see it.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mandynee22* 
Where is this research? I would genuinly like to see it.

It doesn't exist


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh, and sorry I called him your husband









And good for you for turning the seat back the way it ought to be


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

Where's the info backing up the other side?


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
It doesn't exist









Of course it doesn't! Quite frankly, I'd rather have some broken legs over a broken neck.. but hey, that's jmo.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

In no circumstance is FF an option for a 22 pound 15 month old child, if there is ANY alternative. In this case, it most definitely not an option.

There are techs out there who give out "bad" information. It sounds like this tech was one. If your husband is an instructor and believes that it is acceptable to encourage or even suggest that FF is appropriate for a 22 pound child who comes in RF and has parents that are supportive to ERF, I cringe at the fact that he is teaching new techs.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I just have to say that I







our techs here on MDC.

Thank you ladies!









-Angela


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I am a SK coordinator and I can tell you that no new information on turning kids forward facing sooner to protect their legs has come my way! I'll let you know if I hear it, but I don't think that will be happening anytime soon


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age.

Opinions are one thing; research, crash tests, outcomes of actual accidents are another. I'm more interested in what actually HAPPENS, not what someone's opinion is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision

Which in this case was to have the child rear-facing to the limits of the seat, but to have the *installation* of the seat checked.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

The *guidelines* (from AAP, NTHSA, SafeKids, etc.) say to keep kids rear-facing as long as they are under the height and weight limits of the seat they are using. The LAW says it's ok to turn them forward-facing after they have reached both 12 months of age and 20 pounds of weight. One is a minimum, the other is a recommendation based on safety studies.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I just have to say that I







our techs here on MDC.

Thank you ladies!









-Angela

The techs on MDC have given me the desire to take the tech class myself. So that I can actually have some "credentials" to back up what I'm constantly telling friends and family about ERF and HWH.

And to the OP, good for you for turning your son back RF. My 29 pounds, 33 inch nearly 16 month-old is still RFing, and I hope he will be for some time yet.


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## 2 in August (Jan 6, 2006)

I got a new seat from safekids last week. There was a state police officer helping out (not sure if he was a trained tech, I don't think so, but he was there to help the SK coordinator. He questioned why I wanted my 19mo 27lb ds rear facing and I informed him that 12mo/20lb was the bare minimum and not considered safe. I hope that he remembers and doesn't encourage ff to anyone else. The SK coordinator agreed with me on that. But then she told me that my 7yo seat could still be used for awhile longer, but I'd have to use it ff because ds was too big for it rf. I'm getting rid of it since we have the new seat. I was really scared for the other parents who probably don't know all this. I just learned it all in the past month from the techs her on mdc.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

Nope, in SK there is no other side. Safe Kids ONLY promotes rfing till the limits of the seat, BEST PRACTICE. Now unfortunately some techs don't keep up w/ their info or choose not to promote best practice and they shouldn't be techs in that case. I don't even give parents the option of turning their child around when they come in. I tell them they're safest rfing and that's what I reccomend, I don't even talk about ffing unless it's brought up. Then I mention my own 3yo who is still rfing and will be for another 18 mos+! There are also no studies showing ffing is safer, especially if you're comparing broken legs to broken necks. That's a no brainer IMO, but I'd love to see your sources...


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mandynee22* 

(to answer other stuff)

No, Andrew wasn't there. The tech was told his age and size.
He isn't my husband, not that it matters- just clearing it up.
I know that the tech did say it. Richie (Andrew's dad) thought RF was best (since that's what I told him) up until that time

The seat has been turned back to rear facing 

This just sounds like a bad tech. My friend wanted to get a seat put in her car for me to use. My DS wasn't with her so she had to say her daughter (the same age hieght as my DS) would be riding in the seat. The techs at this particular fire station didn't install any seat without the child there. I also thought that was how things were done. Even when I had to have my radian moved from car to the other the techs wanted to know if my child was the only one going to ride in the seat. Even though the straps were still adjusted they checked all of that before giving the official OKAY!!! The frustrating thing about that trip though was the techs had never seen a Radian before and asked me a bunch of questions. I guess extended harnessing hasn't gotten around to the general public. I told the techs I had read the manual more times than I wish to admit too. Actually I reread it every time I move it to another vehicle.

Denise


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Well for my two cents...apparently in canada there has been only ONE instance of a child in a rear-facing seat breaking his legs - he was also the SOLE survivor of that car collision.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
Well for my two cents...apparently in canada there has been ONE instance of a child in a rear-facing seat breaking his legs - he was also the SOLE survivor of that car collision.









And most likely would not have survived forward facing...


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
Well for my two cents...apparently in canada there has been ONE instance of a child in a rear-facing seat breaking his legs - he was also the SOLE survivor of that car collision.









Probably wouldn't have survived foward facing. We also have no way of knowing if the seat was the correct size for him, if it was improperly installed, and if the fractures were due to other reasons.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cutekid* 
This just sounds like a bad tech. My friend wanted to get a seat put in her car for me to use. My DS wasn't with her so she had to say her daughter (the same age hieght as my DS) would be riding in the seat. The techs at this particular fire station didn't install any seat without the child there. I also thought that was how things were done. Even when I had to have my radian moved from car to the other the techs wanted to know if my child was the only one going to ride in the seat. Even though the straps were still adjusted they checked all of that before giving the official OKAY!!! The frustrating thing about that trip though was the techs had never seen a Radian before and asked me a bunch of questions. I guess extended harnessing hasn't gotten around to the general public. I told the techs I had read the manual more times than I wish to admit too. Actually I reread it every time I move it to another vehicle.

Denise


They are supposed to be there but since I wasn't sure if it was installed correctly, I couldn't let him ride in it. (I really kind of don't understand why they insist the child be there if what? 80% are installed wrong in the first placce?)

When he brought his car back to my house, I flipped it and read the manual for his car and for the seat several times and just kept readjusting until it wouldn't move at all. This seat is just a pain because of how you thread it. My knuckles looked like I'd been in a fight by the time I was done from putting my hand through LOL

I had taken my seat at an earlier date to have it checked and they did check all of the straps and everything- I was actually pretty psyched because he said he rarely sees any that are installed correctly but mine was.

I went to the same station and I thought the man had said that there was only one tech- however, I later found out that there are more. In hindsight, I bet he said he was the only one THERE. THAT tech was excellent (aside from -rightfully- reprimanding me about all the floaters in my car)


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

We like the child there, especially w/ ffing seat b/c we want to make sure the child fits in the seat and the straps are set right etc. W/ a rfing seat it's easy to change the straps w/out moving them and in the new Triumph, you don't rethread at all.







I would never tell a parent I couldn't help them b/c the child wasn't there, but I would make sure to tell them where the straps needed to be and make sure they understand that so they can check when they get home.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm surpised at the car seat techs here at MDC automatically assuming the tech in this case was wrong without seeing the child, the seat and the car. My husband is a SafeKids car seat instructor near this tech and we have heard the other side. The tech did nothing wrong.

There are differing opinions on both sides of the rear facing issue after 12 months of age. There are a number of factors to be considered, including the parental decision - my understanding of this case was that the technician informed the parent of the option to either have the seat forward or rear facing (totally appropriate according to the guidelines and this child's size and age) and the father made the decision to have the seat turned around after discussion of both sides of the issue.

I just noticed this part- are you sure you're talking about my case?
He was told that after a certain size, the impact of being rear facing is worse than being forward facing. He was also never contacted for any kind of followup or anything and it sounds like what you're speaking of may have had some kind of investigation- or I'm misunderstanding but that is what I got from you saying you've heard the other side.
He did OK the move to forward facing (I never said otherwise)- because he was told by someone who's supposed to be educated on the subject that Andrew would quite possibly break his legs if he got into a crash. He still has doubts that I know what I'm talking about because of what this tech told him... luckily, he has no choice but to keep him rear facing.
When someone is told that it's dangerous to do something but "Hey, you can if you want..." it really doesn't make it easy to disagree.
The interesting thing is I had my seat inspected just days before... and rear facing was fine then with the other tech.

As for the whole parental decision thing.. well, I'm just of the opinion that some things are not up for debate and some things shouldn't have the option of "decision"


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Probably wouldn't have survived foward facing. We also have no way of knowing if the seat was the correct size for him, if it was improperly installed, and if the fractures were due to other reasons.

Actually, that was the implication of my post, that he got off LIGHT because he was rear-facing....

I think the seat was properly installed, I got the info from the defect investigator for child seats in canada (she was demonstrating how safe ERF was).


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
Actually, that was the implication of my post, that he got off LIGHT because he was rear-facing....

I think the seat was properly installed, I got the info from the defect investigator for child seats in canada (she was demonstrating how safe ERF was).

Yeah, I know, I was backing you up


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Thanks...I re-read it (and edited it) and realized it could have been read the wrong way...silly sleep-deprived me!


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I had a team of two techs work on my new car seat after my car was hit. Though it met all the criteria for keeping the car seat, we wanted it replaced, and the other guy's insurance paid for it, since he was 100% at fault.

One tech was incredulous that I still had my 16-month-old, 22ish pound baby rear facing. Said he had NEVER seen a baby rearfacing that long. I relaly had to set him straight. The other tech said he was ready to jump in and back me up, but I said everything he was going to say - he even said he was going to steal my line about 1 year/20 pounds being the bare minimum, and I want to give my baby the best of everything, not the bare minimum.

I told the tech how I'd much rather have to deal with a broken leg from DD being rearfacing than a broken neck - or worse. That she's far safer RFing for as long as possible. He tried to show me something on the side that said RFing up to 20 pounds, but according to the manual, my seat limit is 30 pounds.

The second tech commended me for being educated and vigilant - he said usually the people arguing with the techs are trying to get the OK to FF their 18-pound 9-MO as "close enough."


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 

The second tech commended me for being educated and vigilant - he said usually the people arguing with the techs are trying to get the OK to FF their 18-pound 9-MO as "close enough."

I know a few people who've done this. "He was 19lbs at 9 months old, so I think he's okay. I think I know what's best for my child." Okay, and I think you're a flippin' moron. IMO, to not know and do is one thing-- to have the info presented to you, yet refuse to make the safer choice, is terrible. Safety shouldn't be upon the parents disgression. She argued "Well he's almost a year now and he's 22lbs."







: My sister turned my niece, at 19lbs, and 1 year. Her ped told her to. Another friend's ped told her it was okay to turn her 13 month old, because she was almost 20lbs anyway. I think the education process needs to start with the peds, because so many parents just blindly follow what their peds says.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
I had a team of two techs work on my new car seat after my car was hit. Though it met all the criteria for keeping the car seat, we wanted it replaced, and the other guy's insurance paid for it, since he was 100% at fault.

One tech was incredulous that I still had my 16-month-old, 22ish pound baby rear facing. Said he had NEVER seen a baby rearfacing that long. I relaly had to set him straight. The other tech said he was ready to jump in and back me up, but I said everything he was going to say - he even said he was going to steal my line about 1 year/20 pounds being the bare minimum, *and I want to give my baby the best of everything, not the bare minimum.*
I told the tech how I'd much rather have to deal with a broken leg from DD being rearfacing than a broken neck - or worse. That she's far safer RFing for as long as possible. He tried to show me something on the side that said RFing up to 20 pounds, but according to the manual, my seat limit is 30 pounds.

The second tech commended me for being educated and vigilant - he said usually the people arguing with the techs are trying to get the OK to FF their 18-pound 9-MO as "close enough."


I love that quote (bolding mine)
I think I'll steal it, myself 
You know, seeing as how they're all trained by the same company (aren't the all by safe kids?) You would think they'd use the same information.
Even the SK website says they know of no cases of broken legs BECAUSE of RF


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