# Riding a bike at 9:00 pm with your baby in a Mei tai....



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Would you take your baby for a bike ride, in a mei tai? At night?

I came home from the gym tonight, and there was a guy in the middle of the road (in the neighborhood) and he moved to the side. As I drove buy him, I saw that his 12-ish month old son was on his back in a mei tai.

My first thought was "Cool carrier!". Then I thought "I wouldn't take my baby on a bike!" (neither one had a helmet) Then, I thought, "It actually looks kinda nice.. maybe years ago, I would have done that".


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## kythe (Dec 20, 2007)

No, I wouldn't. I come from a family of avid cyclists and am very interested in safety. When you've been in the bicycling world long enough, you start "knowing" the people who are in serious accidents, instead of just seeing them on tv. There is no way I would take a young child out into traffic, especially one that is not old enough to sit properly with their own helmet.

To look at it another way: I wouldn't think of not buckling in to a car properly. Yet in a car accident you at least have the car itself taking some of the impact. On a bike, it's just you and the road.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Different families and cultures have different norms.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

I live in Holland. This kind of thing happens all the time, though most bikes have kid seats on them. I used to bike with DS in a baby bjorn before he was old enough to be in a kid seat. It was really the only way I could get around the big city (driving was almost impossible as the cities weren't set up for cars) and I lived too far away to walk comfortably, nor did I live very close to public transport.

Here, however, motorists are very used to bikes, there are bike lanes, and bikers (generally) have right-of-way. Doesn't mean accidents don't happen, but it's much more of a biking culture. I can imagine you'd be a bit alarmed/worried if you saw this in parts of the US where motorists aren't going to be on the look out for bikers (especially ones with babies!) and aren't as used to driving with bikers on the road.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I would never put my kids on a bike without a proper helmet and carrier, in North America. Sure, different cultures have different norms - and many have different injury stats, biking cultures, etc.

The downside of that is that you can't put a helmet on a smaller baby due to the weight, so you have to wait longer. I'm actually mulling over how I feel about a suspension-loaded bike trailer (Chariot) at what age for next spring/summer/fall; haven't decided yet where I fall on that one.

I once cracked a bike helmet I was wearing, and broke my wrist. I was on a biking path down by the lake with no cars whatsoever - but an unleashed puppy ran out in front of my bike. The ER doctor said it probably would have been my skull that had cracked. So - yeah.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

I have ridden a bike with a 1 yr. old on my back in a carrier and probably will again once my baby is a year old. We wear helmets and ride on the sidewalk. I've read that most baby bike injuries are caused by the bike falling over when the parent is getting on/off the bike, putting groceries in the basket, etc. When my little guy was 1 my oldest was 4 and newly riding without training wheels and I wanted to be able to get to him quickly in case he needed help. I actually felt a lot more balanced with the baby on my back compared to when he was in a bike seat.

But helmets are a must and if it's night, proper bike lights.


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## Geist (Jan 27, 2010)

If I were in a situation where the only way I could get around was a bike, then yea, I'd ride it with my kid in a carrier. My son can ride in the child seat in the back, but if I had to go somewhere with a new baby and and no choice, yep! They'd go in the carrier. Necessity drives a lot of actions in the world and I'm lucky that the lifestyle I have at the moment doesn't necessitate it.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

I wouldnt want my baby attached to me b/c if I fell, I'd squish the baby.

Helmets on in a bike seat or trailor, over 12months I have no problem with. At night, reflectors on clothes or bike so you can be seen. Ds rides his bike with a helmet on and a reflective vest at night (here its too hot in the day time most of the year).

When ds was tiny I didnt have a car and had to walk everywhere, it took a lot longer than a bike, but it was safer.

FTR: I grew up in asia where more people had bikes than cars, and most people didnt have cars - they would walk, ride bikes, or ride the bus. But also, cars move a lot slower (more traffic) and are much more aware of bikes around.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

Would I do it? No. But then again I have the economic advantage to buy a Burley, or take a car.

Do I judge other who do it? No, it's not my choice and everyone has different comfort zones and economic means.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

You know, honestly, I probably would. I haven't, but then again, I have nowhere to ride a bike (Ok, thats not entirely true. I suppose I could ride it into town - but thats 7+ miles each way...), and I have the luxery of alternatives. Not everyone does.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Not in a non-bike centric culture. So, not the US or Canada for sure. Not in any way worth the risks.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

We live in a VERY bike culture. I bike to the city, to public transport to work, to pick up kids from daycare and school... but I am willing to fall myself. I am not willing to fall and injure my child as well as myself. So no carrier or Mei Tai for my kids. I am happier that they are biking themselves. They are much lower to the ground, and they know what speed is best for themselves, and they are excellent bikers. DD has been biking on a two wheeler since she was shy of 3.5. She bikes a mile per day, in sun, rain, ice, snow.... Because she has the experience of all these environments, she knows when its dry how fast and close she can get to something before quickly swerving out of the way, versus when the snow is powdery how her traction will be, compared to when she sees glassy ice, and knows to get off and walk her bike instead. Though honestly, in snow she prefers me to pull her on a sled, but she is a darn good biker.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AllisonR*
> 
> versus when the snow is powdery how her traction will be, compared to when she sees glassy ice, and knows to get off and walk her bike instead. Though honestly, in snow she prefers me to pull her on a sled, but she is a darn good biker.


I'm such a weenie. I wouldn't ride a bike in the snow, ice or anything below 65 degrees f. (about 19 c) It never occurred to me that everyone else does.


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## coyotemist (Aug 23, 2007)

No, I would feel terrible if I gave my child a head injury. He does ride in a trailer, and did before we had a helmet for him (in a state park where the speed limit for cars is 10 or 15). He has a helmet now.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coyotemist*
> 
> No, I would feel terrible if I gave my child a head injury. He does ride in a trailer, and did before we had a helmet for him (in a state park where the speed limit for cars is 10 or 15). He has a helmet now.


I would put my child in a trailer in a state park - they are SUPER strict about speed limits. There are NO other circumstances where I would put my child on a bike or in a trailer without a helmet. My dad is a cyclist, and he's really strict about biking safety and always was when I was growing up.

Yeah, and bike lights are a must - even in daylight reflectors at the very least need to be used. I hate it when I see bikes that don't have reflectors or lights on them, I live in NYC and people who bike don't seem to have much sense (this is from what I've seen - I practically cheer out loud whenever I see someone practicing safe cycling b/c its so rare here!).


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I don't think I'd feel safe wearing ds and riding a bike. I DEFINITELY wouldn't be riding with neither of us having a helmet. My mom would have died if she wasn't wearing her helmet on one bike trip a few years ago. There is no way I would ever ride without one, and even less likelihood that I'd have my kid on a bike with no helmet.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm in agreement on the helmet thing for sure. DH is a cyclist, so bike safety is something that's ever present in our home. We don't put kids in the bike trailer until they're a year old and can wear a helmet. We don't use bike seats, only the trailer, but it would be no younger than a year for that, too, because of the helmet issue.


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## LVale (May 4, 2004)

Did anyone notice in Skreaders pic #2, that the man is wearing a helmet, but the little boy, and the 2 women are not? What is wrong with this pic?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

That would upset me greatly. I don't think its safe.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LVale*
> 
> Did anyone notice in Skreaders pic #2, that the man is wearing a helmet, but the little boy, and the 2 women are not? What is wrong with this pic?


Yep! Noticed the same thing. I'm wondering if maybe there is a law that says the driver must wear a helmet.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Based on my username, it's pretty obvious that cycling has been a major part of my life. Cycling is fraught with dangers, but you can reduce the probability that it will result in injury or death. Riding at night is particularly dangerous. Riding where there is automobile traffic is dangerous. Riding without appropriate safety gear is dangerous. Riding carrying something that will throw off your balance is dangerous. Combine them all, and it's a recipe for disaster. Riding at night, in traffic, with a baby in a Mei-Tai without any protective gear? I'm usually a MYOB kind of gal, but in this case, I would probably have stopped the people and called the police. As an experienced cyclist, I see this as nothing less than child endangerment... probably resulting from ignorance or just plain stupidity, but someone needs to knock it into this parent's head how dangerous it is. That can be done the easy way (getting the authorities involved) or the hard way (getting hit and killing the child or both).


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

At that time of night, no...........but my mind would go why does have have to?

I think many times our privlage does not help us see that other people have less options and have to take risk we would not take.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Based on my username, it's pretty obvious that cycling has been a major part of my life. *Cycling is fraught with dangers*, but you can reduce the probability that it will result in injury or death. Riding at night is particularly dangerous. *Riding where there is automobile traffic is dangerous.* Riding without appropriate safety gear is dangerous. Riding carrying something that will throw off your balance is dangerous. Combine them all, and it's a recipe for disaster. Riding at night, in traffic, with a baby in a Mei-Tai without any protective gear? I'm usually a MYOB kind of gal, but in this case, *I would probably have stopped the people and called the police*. As an experienced cyclist, I see this as nothing less than child endangerment... probably resulting from ignorance or just plain stupidity, but someone needs to knock it into this parent's head how dangerous it is. That can be done the easy way (getting the authorities involved) or the hard way (getting hit and killing the child or both).


EVERYTHING is fraught with dangers. I still take showers on a regular basis!

Cars and bikes can mix safely, but I've never seen it in North America. In places where bikes are normalized as a form of transportation, and not just entertainment or exercise/sport, they (car operators) expect bikes and have a different attitude. The Dutch come to mind.

I would hope that if someone saw me doing something they considered very unsafe or neglectful they would talk to me first rather than just call the police. It could have been a dead end road with streetlights!

I remember my first time seeing entire families on motor bikes riding down major roads the wrong way. Or in the median strip. I was both shocked that there weren't dead bodies lining the roads and horrified at how I must appear to the taxi driver- with my 6 month old snug in a car seat (alhtough not strapped to the car since it had no seatbelts!) It is all the culture in which you come from.

We all take risks and different people have different comfort levels.


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## Hykue (Sep 3, 2010)

I just wanted to point out, as regarding picture #2, that I had a different take on that - most likely the man is the main rider in the family - he probably has to ride that bike every day, or at least more often than anyone else. Therefore he has a helmet. The other passengers probably don't ride very often, so they couldn't afford to get helmets for everyone. That would be my assumption.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Hykue,

That would be my take on it as well (the guy is the more frequent rider). I just found them by googling "families on motorcycles", so

I don't know the story.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skreader*
> 
> Different families and cultures have different norms.


Love this!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Geist*
> 
> If I were in a situation where the only way I could get around was a bike, then yea, I'd ride it with my kid in a carrier. My son can ride in the child seat in the back, but if I had to go somewhere with a new baby and and no choice, yep! They'd go in the carrier. Necessity drives a lot of actions in the world and I'm lucky that the lifestyle I have at the moment doesn't necessitate it.


Bravo!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness*
> 
> Not in a non-bike centric culture. So, not the US or Canada for sure. Not in any way worth the risks.


For me, I guess it would depend on what the risks of not getting to where you need to go, as well. Maybe he was riding out to get some medication. Or not. I don't think it's statistically more dangerous than driving. But lots of people take that risk every day.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mumm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


The dangers of bathing are different and have a different set of probabilities and outcomes. If one can reduce risks, it seems rather foolish to not do so. Sure there are dangers of taking a shower, but why stand on the bar of soap while doing so? There are also safer ways to ride a bike with a child and even an infant.

And yes, I'm well aware of what happens in different cultures. My dh is from the Middle East and we've lived abroad several times around the world over the past 25 years. Trying to say that it occurs in, for example The Netherlands is a ridiculous comparison. The US isn't the Netherlands. The bike culture is not the same. I've ridden in over 2 dozen countries. It's different everywhere and you have to be aware of where you are. The OP's incident took place in the US. It was negligent. I stand by my opinion as a veteran (former competitive) cyclist who has ridden all over the world (including Amsterdam).


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> Quote:
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No. There's literally no way to ride a bike to an actual location in this neighborhood. You can ride to someone's house, (which is entirely possible) or you can drive a car to a store, but you couldn't ride a bike to a store while carrying a child on your back.

He was probably just out for a bike ride. I think I'd have gone later at night too, just to avoid all the parents looking at him and wondering what he was thinking. If I didn't worry about the "What ifs" of that situation, it actually looked like a great idea. If I could just get past the whole "dangerous" thing,


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Based on my username, it's pretty obvious that cycling has been a major part of my life. Cycling is fraught with dangers, but you can reduce the probability that it will result in injury or death. Riding at night is particularly dangerous. Riding where there is automobile traffic is dangerous. Riding without appropriate safety gear is dangerous. Riding carrying something that will throw off your balance is dangerous. Combine them all, and it's a recipe for disaster. Riding at night, in traffic, with a baby in a Mei-Tai without any protective gear? I'm usually a MYOB kind of gal, but in this case, *I would probably have stopped the people* and called the police. As an experienced cyclist, I see this as nothing less than child endangerment... probably resulting from ignorance or just plain stupidity, but someone needs to knock it into this parent's head how dangerous it is. That can be done the easy way (getting the authorities involved) or the hard way (getting hit and killing the child or both).


How would you have stopped them? THAT seems kind of dangerous actually - confronting a stranger.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> Quote:
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I am confused. How do you know he couldn't have ridden to a store? I mean - it may seem difficult, but maybe he was.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

No way, never. That's just not safe at all imo.

First, we always wear helmets on bikes, there is no way my kids go on a bike/in a trailer without helmets.

Second, what if I had fallen off and landed on top of my baby? The baby is strapped to you, so dangerous. To me, doing that is as stupid as riding without a helmet.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I would not do that, and it definitely does not seem safe to me. Something as simple as skidding and falling which would be very minor (nothing more than a scraped knee) for a single rider could result in serious injury to a baby worn on someone's back.


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## kythe (Dec 20, 2007)

Another aspect to the safety issues are the legal aspects. In my state, it is against the law for people under 18 to ride without a helmet. Even for those over 18, every bicycling organization I'm aware of requires their members to wear helmets. Studies have shown between a 50-80% decrease in head injuries to riders who were wearing helmets in accidents.

You can be ticketed for not having your child in a helmet. But if you are in an accident and your child is injured, you can be charged with felany child endangerment, depending on how they want to prosecute. This is the similar to charges for not having a child buckled in properly to a car seat, and drunk driving. This is why this issue goes beyond "personal comfort level" like many aspects of parenting. Because bicycling is associated with specific dangers that can be prevented, it becomes a legal issue.

I can't speak for bicycing outside the US since I've never traveled elsewhere, but in the US, roads are not generally bike-friendly. Many roads do not have "bicycle lanes" and even the ones that do tend to be narrow. Cars whiz by thinking bikes will swerve out of their way, or cars pull out of side streets not considering how fast bikes can go, and accidents happen.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> Quote:
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Because I live here, the closest store is Walgreens, and it was closed. He would have had to cross the freeway (no bike path or any extra room on the very busy bridge for a bike).


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Whatever. Anywhere you can drive or walk to, you can ride a bike to. Might not be conveneint but you can do it. Judging people to the point of calling them negligent/stupid/bad parents simply because they make different choices than you do is simply stupid. Not everyone has a car. Not every city has good public transport. Not everyone has the money for public transport. Why was he riding w/ his child in a mei tai? IDK. But neither do you. Maybe he was going grocery shopping, or taking the kid to the doctor. Or going to work. Or coming home. Maybe that was his *only* way to get there. Or maybe he was just going to see friends - and that too was his only way. But of course, since all of you have options and alternatives, he must too. Only maybe he doesn't. You don't know. Neither do I. So don't freaking judge.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque*
> 
> Whatever. Anywhere you can drive or walk to, you can ride a bike to. Might not be conveneint but you can do it. Judging people to the point of calling them negligent/stupid/bad parents simply because they make different choices than you do is simply stupid. Not everyone has a car. Not every city has good public transport. Not everyone has the money for public transport. Why was he riding w/ his child in a mei tai? IDK. But neither do you. Maybe he was going grocery shopping, or taking the kid to the doctor. Or going to work. Or coming home. Maybe that was his *only* way to get there. Or maybe he was just going to see friends - and that too was his only way. But of course, since all of you have options and alternatives, he must too. Only maybe he doesn't. You don't know. Neither do I. So don't freaking judge.


Exactly. Maybe there wasn't anywhere "you" (the OP) would ride to, but that doesn't mean there isn't anywhere to ride.

Right on, mamadelbosque!!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque*
> 
> Whatever. Anywhere you can drive or walk to, you can ride a bike to. Might not be conveneint but you can do it. Judging people to the point of calling them negligent/stupid/bad parents simply because they make different choices than you do is simply stupid. Not everyone has a car. Not every city has good public transport. Not everyone has the money for public transport. Why was he riding w/ his child in a mei tai? IDK. But neither do you. Maybe he was going grocery shopping, or taking the kid to the doctor. Or going to work. Or coming home. Maybe that was his *only* way to get there. Or maybe he was just going to see friends - and that too was his only way. But of course, since all of you have options and alternatives, he must too. Only maybe he doesn't. You don't know. Neither do I. So don't freaking judge.


LOL.. No. Really. I know you don't "get it". But, I would "totally freaking judge" anybody who wanted to cross this particular freeway at 9:30-ish at night. There is no good reason to walk or ride a bike over this freeway. I wasn't actually Judging anyway. Because I am still sure he wouldn't have left the neighborhood on a bike with a baby. Just a little bike ride.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


A stranger with a baby strapped to his back is going to do what... attack me for saying something?







Actually, I probably would have first offered a ride because I know you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I have a safe car seat and a bike rack. I could easily have taken them where they needed to go. More than once, I've helped out a cyclist with a flat and once helped out a mom and child coming home from the park. If they blew me off, yeah, I'd call the police. Not only is it unsafe, it's illegal. If they want to pleasure ride, then get appropriate gear and do it safely. I can't imagine any need so desperate that they couldn't call a friend, neighbor, family or cab to do what needed to be done.

I'm sorry that you can't see how unsafe this situation is. The US does not have a cycling culture. And just because others do these dangerous things in other countries doesn't make it right. It still makes it dangerous. We have the resources to be safer. It boggles the mind that people will advocate to have their children rear-facing for years, stay strapped into a 5-point harness for a few years more... yet it's O.K. to ride at night without proper gear with a baby strapped to the back. I see no difference between this situation and letting a kid bounce around a car unsecured. Both are illegal and both are very unsafe.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

I HAVE done this- ridden a bike with a young baby on a carrier on my back (no helmets). I find that as a culture we hve gotten way too safety minded to the determint of many things.


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> I would not do that, and it definitely does not seem safe to me. Something as simple as skidding and falling which would be very minor (nothing more than a scraped knee) for a single rider could result in serious injury to a baby worn on someone's back.












My uncle was killed while riding his bike a few years ago. He was an avid cyclist. His bike was painted bright yellow and he was wearing reflective gear and a helmet. He was commuting through Toronto - NOT a bike friendly city. So no I would never wear a baby in a mei tei and bike... or bike with my baby in any sort of carrier in Toronto either. I would do it along the board walk or out here in the suburbs.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

But see, you obviously don't get it. Not everyone (yes, even here in the US!!) has the "resources to be safer" - not everyone has options. Some people just don't.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Well, this sounds a lot more reasonable than what you originally posted


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shannie77*
> 
> Quote:
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I am sorry about your uncle. But driving a car is way more dangerous (even when taking proper safety precautions) yet most people in continue to drive.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I wouldn't do it.


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## love4bob (Apr 30, 2008)

I've done it, not on busy streets or at night though. My older two were in the bike trailer, and the baby was on my back since she was too little for the trailer(and no room for her either). I rode to the beach on sidewalks and just in my neighborhood in the suburbs. I don't ride fast, and there's little traffic. Before I did it, I looked up the laws, and it is legal to carry a child in a carrier while on a bike here.

I agree that we have become too obsessed with safety to detriment. Everything has risks, everything can be dangerous. I think driving a car or motorcycle is more dangerous than a bike. Even when all safety precautions are taken while driving.


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## kythe (Dec 20, 2007)

Bike accidents tend to be more deadly than car accidents. When cars hit bikes, even at low speeds, it sends the cyclist flying. How far you go and how hard you land depends a lot on where you are, but serious injuries are common. If someone is wearing a seat belt in a car, the only main injury they can expect is whiplash. There is a big difference between projectile injuries and neck strain.

It isn't difficult, expensive ($20 or less), or even uncomfortable to use a helmet while riding and to obey traffic laws. This is why I don't see any reason for the animosity towards bike safety. It isn't going overboard when you consider the consequences of flying off the bike.

My dad was an avid bike rider for over 20 years and has only been in one accident. But that one time, he was thrown over the hood of a car that pulled out in front of him because the car thought he wasn't going fast. He fractured two vertebrae and his helmet was crushed. Had he not been wearing a helmet, that would have been his head. He had probably ridden on thousands of rides over the years and "nothing happened". But that one time he was in an accident, a helmet saved his life.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque*
> 
> But see, you obviously don't get it. Not everyone (yes, even here in the US!!) has the "resources to be safer" - not everyone has options. Some people just don't.


Yes they do... it's called walking on a sidewalk.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i would myob. neighborhood biking is usually considered safe. if we had not moved out to the sticks i would be biking with my dd the same way around our neighborhood. honestly, i feel as though riding in a car is much more dangerous.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

I grew up in The Netherlands with lots of biking and no helmets.

But a may tai carrier also seems dangerous to me. I biked with my kids last time we were there, and we had the baby in his carseat in a biketrailer, believe that's the most common way nowadays to move a baby with a bike. The larger kids go in approved bikeseats in front or back of bike (or they sit in the trailer), buckled up.

Carma


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pq6b_amsterdam_bicycle_many.jpg

I love the above picture - I got it from here -

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pq6b_amsterdam_bicycle_many.jpg
> 
> ...


I love that noone wears helmets!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kythe*
> 
> Bike accidents tend to be more deadly than car accidents. When cars hit bikes, even at low speeds, it sends the cyclist flying. How far you go and how hard you land depends a lot on where you are, but serious injuries are common. If someone is wearing a seat belt in a car, the only main injury they can expect is whiplash. There is a big difference between projectile injuries and neck strain.
> 
> ...


The guy in the op would have had to spend a lot more than $20 for a bike seat or a trailer.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pq6b_amsterdam_bicycle_many.jpg
> 
> ...


It is certainly an effective illustration of the dangerous and head scratching decisions some parents make.


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## kythe (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> Quote:
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He would have had to pay a lot more for a mei tai too.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Quote:
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LOL! I am pretty sure all those kids are safer being transported that way on a bike then all of the US's in their cars. Iw ouldn't scratch too hard about amsterdam parents


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kythe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Who knows if it was an actual mai tei, or a cheap knock off or from a second hand store... also a baby can't go in a bike seat, but can be snuggled against daddy or mommy's chest


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> I It boggles the mind that people will advocate to have their children rear-facing for years, stay strapped into a 5-point harness for a few years more... yet it's O.K. to ride at night without proper gear with a baby strapped to the back.


This was my first thought. I know parents who have kept their small-for-their-age almost tween-aged children strapped into booster seats even for short car trips on quiet roads, yet they allow them to cycle without helmets on hilly, unpaved ground. It's the inconsistency in risk-taking that perplexes me. An unrestrained child may suffer injuries in a low-velocity collision - whether it takes place inside a car or as a result of being thrown from a bicycle.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Not me. I am nothing if not consistent. I think people can be over the top about car seats, too. It is not my place to tell someone what they are doing with their child is dangerous. Just like I wouldn't want someone telling me homebirth or not vaxing is dangerous


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pq6b_amsterdam_bicycle_many.jpg
> 
> ...


O.K.. I know this is changing the subject.....

But, how do you get two kids on a two wheeled bike (in the child seats) without the bike falling over?

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pt0b_amsterdam_bicycle_many.jpg <--like in this picture? How does the bike stay up while you put both kids on?


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

We have helmet laws here and there is a well known (local) celeb and his famous wife who are constantly getting photo'd riding there bikes w/ no helmets. They now put a helmet on their kid but the press still goes crazy taking photos. I can tell it's a slow news days when that's the 11pm teaser.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I spent my junior year in the Netherlands. Comparing how the Dutch ride bikes and what they do and don't do for safety reasons with the US is simply untenable. The Dutch grow up in a culture that promotes bike riding above all other forms of transportation. They grow up used to riding with cars, and also grow up to drive those cars used to riding with bikes.

Every new street/roadway must include a bike lane, and in many cases the bike lane has a barrier between it and the car roadway. It makes no sense to bring the Dutch into this argument at all.

The man was taking a risk with his baby that he should not have taken. That he chose to do so hardly makes him a bastion of parental freedom that we should admire. It simply makes him look irresponsible.

There are much safer ways to transport a baby or child on a bicycle-and our trailer was free from Freecycle.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You can get a kick stand the goes down on both sides of the bike. Also, practice. The hardest part for me is the actual work of riding. I have a trailer I pull sometimes too - we're talking 60 - 80 extra pounds depending on the day...


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> I spent my junior year in the Netherlands. Comparing how the Dutch ride bikes and what they do and don't do for safety reasons with the US is simply untenable. The Dutch grow up in a culture that promotes bike riding above all other forms of transportation. They grow up used to riding with cars, and also grow up to drive those cars used to riding with bikes.
> 
> ...


You just can't say what another parent should or shouldn't be doing. And also, it is so classist to bring up freecycle. Yes, it is free - but do you realize there are people out there, even in the good old U S of A, that don't have access to a computer or the internet???


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Blah. Not going to waste my breath arguing for the sake of arguing. Good night!!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


YEs. It is classist to assume everyone has access to a computer - the only way to do freecycle. Dumpster diving? that's for everyone. It's clasist that you would laugh at the idea that some people don't have access to freecycle/a computer. It's sad, actually. To assume just because something is "free" that all people have access to it. Really.


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## kythe (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This is what blows my mind. If the baby is snuggled against daddy or mommy's chest, consider what that means in an accident. If you hit something or something hits you, you fly forward. The baby is now acting as your "airbag", taking the impact of the crash since you will land on the pavement in a prone position. If anything, a back carry might be safer if it is tight and secure. Still, it doesn't always take much to loosen up a sling and the baby will fly out anyway. This is why slings aren't a substitute for seat belts/car seats in a car. You can't hold the baby securely enough if there is impact.

I also tend to not see bike riding as very economical, at least in the US. I used public transportation with two young kids for 4 years before getting a car. I've known many families during my time in low-income housing who also rode the bus, but have never seen people in my area use a bicycle as a method of family transportation. I had a road bike that I had originally cost $900+ from which I rode regularly before I had kids. But it wouldn't have occurred to me to put the kids on it with me. You can get bike attachments and equipment used, but from what I've seen its still more expensive than just buying a monthly bus pass. This obviously varies according to where you live, though. I see bicycling as an expensive hobby, not a cheap form of family transportation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kythe*
> 
> It isn't difficult, expensive ($20 or less), or even uncomfortable to use a helmet while riding and to obey traffic laws.


I don't think it's a great idea to ride a bike with a baby in a mei tai - at least not in my city. I can't say for any other. However, $20.00 can be expensive, depending on a person's financial situation (I can certainly remember times when an unexpected $10-$20 expense had me curled up in a ball, crying, wondering where I could possibly find that much money). And, if helmets aren't uncomfortable for you, I'm very happy that's the case. I always wear one when I cycle (it's been a few years now), but I find it very uncomfortable. Saying one doesn't understand why someone else wouldn't wear it, because it's not "even uncomfortable" is kind of ridiculous. They have some reason for not wearing it - how do you know discomfort isn't part of it?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kythe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


what you're saying is probably true in areas with good public transport. Many (if not most) areas of the us don't have good public transportation. Honestly, *I am so grateful we have a car*. And I know just how privileged that makes me. So I am not going to judge someone riding a bike with a baby in a mei tai. I just can't know their situation.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You either let the bike lean against your hip with the seating part and/or you use the stand that's on the bike (but stand is often too wobbly). The oldest can also often climb on.

Bike accidents do happen in The Netherlands. When people get older and become less balanced for example. But everywhere there are bikelanes, bikes have right of way, there are no hills and everyone learns to bike at a very early age. When I was young (from 12 years old) I had to ride about 4 miles on my bike to school with all the other kids, in every season. Before that I would ride my bike with my mom to the grocery store etc. We had one car, and my father used it to get to work. My parents have 4 kids 

Carma


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

The first thing I thought of when reading the original post was that the wee one might have colic, and dad was out for a calming bike ride. I am surprised that four pages worth of comments have been used to address this man's parenting abilities/decisions. Wow, just wow! Qui sine peccato est vestrum...


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebackpacks*
> 
> The first thing I thought of when reading the original post was that the wee one might have colic, and dad was out for a calming bike ride. I am surprised that four pages worth of comments have been used to address this man's parenting abilities/decisions. Wow, just wow! Qui sine peccato est vestrum...


Yes, but then he could have walked I guess 

Carma


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I've had the option. And I certainly wouldn't. When we lived in Sweden (DD was 16 to 26 months old in that period), we biked around a lot. I don't drive, and biking is quite common there, with lots of bike lanes, and the area we lived in had not so much traffic, good vision, 30 km/h speed limits and an expectation that kids will be playing in the street. We had a Weeride for her, and we both wore helmets. However, coming home on the bus with DD asleep in the mei tai, I could chose between biking with her still in the mei tai, wake her and put her on bike, or walk 2 km. I usually opted to walk, and would never choose to bike babywearing. we talked about it and read up on the safety before deciding this. I did fall with her on the bike once, on an icy patch, and several times we nearly fell. All you need is something in the road that shouldn't be there (and in the dark or rain this is really difficult to see, despite bike lights), and you go flying.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

No, I would not.

Statements like 'everything is dangerous' really only illustrate a poor understanding of relative risk.

Then trying to throw classism in there because someone mentions freecycle? Really? In this country, if you are a Caucasian mei tei user, you have a very high chance of also being an internet user!

Riding a bike in a car culture is just plain dangerous. Doing it while off balance (child in carrier,) at night (poor visibility) etc is... a clear loser in my risk/benefit analysis.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeminijad*
> 
> Then trying to throw classism in there because someone mentions freecycle? Really? In this country, if you are a Caucasian mei tei user, you have a very high chance of also being an internet user!
> 
> Riding a bike in a car culture is just plain dangerous. Doing it while off balance (child in carrier,) at night (poor visibility) etc is... a clear loser in my risk/benefit analysis.


I didn't see any indication in this thread that the man was Caucasian. I also have to point out that "very high chance" isn't the same thing as "definite". I can tell you that I babywore with ds1 in 1993, and I didn't even own a computer until 1998, and didn't have internet access for another year. It's possible that the most common demographic for formal AP is highly educated, reasonably well off, Caucasians, but there are always exceptions.

I totally get what you're saying in the last sentence, but I don't see how you can possibly talk about the risk/benefit analysis, when you don't have any idea what factors went into the "benefit" side for the guy in the OP. People (including me) risk their children's lives every single day, without outside comment about the risk/benefit analysis. That doesn't mean we're not doing something really, really stupid from that perspective.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeminijad*
> 
> Riding a bike in a car culture is just plain dangerous. Doing it while off balance (child in carrier,) at night (poor visibility) etc is... a clear loser in my risk/benefit analysis.


I wouldn't do it either. I am fortunate enough to have a car. I just can't judge someone who makes a different choice than me - I have no idea what his risk/benefit analysis was. I'm willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I kind of don't get the point of these threads in general - why not just cut people some slack? Most people truly are doing the best they can.


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vbactivist*
> 
> I kind of don't get the point of these threads in general - why not just cut people some slack? Most people truly are doing the best they can.












I feel this thread has taken a very negative and judgmental tone. I will be the second person to (figuratively) stand up and and say, "Enough is enough."


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