# "Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it"



## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/lif...6?OpenDocument

note her email address at the bottom of the article.....


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:

When he proved immune to hand-smacking, we knew we had to come up with a more intimidating form of punishment, fast
Speaking to the author ---> _Wonderful... so when he "proves immune to spanking" what are you going to do? Come up with even MORE intimidating form of punishment? I think those are illegal, even in US..._

As much as I want to I will not write an e-mail. It would be too emotionally charged and will spark hostility. If some of the more level-headed mamas will, it might be of service? For I will probably disagree with every sentence in this article one by one







:


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I wonder if she wrote the headline too, because nowhere in her story do I see any evidence of her son hitting her with anything. What I do see is someone incapable of giving her child credit for a brain and unwilling to understand his perspective. How sad when people proudly attach their name and face to this attitude.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

"Seriously though, if they're not spanking, maybe they're using Jedi mind tricks."

Well, she found me out. I control my ds with my mind!








I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole article. I couldn't get past her smacking her child over a christmas tree! Having a tree up is not that damn important. If the kid can't leave it alone, don't put it up! Wait until next year.







:


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

I love how she insults the letter writers in the actual article. Its as if she thinks, "If I call them frothy-mouthed, perhaps they will be shamed into silence." She is so mis-lead that I'm not even sure where to start with an e-mail.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

What really got to me was where she compared a toddler to a dog.


















































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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:

fat-faced, snowman eyes
Who would describe their child this way?

Oh, yeah, someone who thinks controlling her children through physical abuse is "working pretty good."








:


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

So what if the kid touches the Christmas tree?!? My 3 yo dd loves to take the ornaments off and play with them. We put the breakable ones up high and put the soft ones back on the tree when she's done playing. Not really a big deal here. The tree should be fun, or don't have one at all. I also love how she thinks you can't reason with a four year old. Shows she's never tried!

Pattie
(a frothy-mouthed non spanker)


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Okay, so I fought every desire in me to tell her to go straight to hell... and composed this....

Ms. Loesch,

I was very saddened by your article on spanking. I was saddened because I truly believe you love your child and it seems, also believe that there is no other effective way to dissuade him from acting in ways that you find undesirable than to strike him.
It saddens me that someone who seems so intelligent would think themselves so incapable of an alternative solution to dealing with your four year old's very normal, and very age appropriate behavior.

Also troubling, is the fact that I am sure you would throw yourself in front of a bus to protect the life you brought into this world, yet at the same time see no issue with putting your hands on his body in a way that is neither loving, gentle, or really does anything to accomplish your greater goal --- to have him understand why taking lights off of Christmas trees and the like are not acceptable behaviors in your home or in society.

All spanking does is instill fear into a child. It sends the message that physical retaliation is an acceptable means of communication. Sure, in the short term it is effective in making children "obey", but they are doing so out of fear of being hit and no other reason. It does nothing to teach the greater lessons I am sure you seek to instill in him -- respect for others and their feelings, personal belongings and most of all, their right to exist without fear of physical retaliation.

In no other place in society is someone allowed to reprimand you physically. Your husband does not strike you when dinner is not on the table to his satisfaction. Your boss does not hit you when you are late with a deadline. The police are not allowed hit you if you have broken the law. All these actions would be considered violent, or at the very least, demeaning. I fear you are setting up a dynamic of fear in your relationship with your child that you make grow to regret when he gets too old, or too big for you to hit.

Sure, we all know people who were spanked and claim to suffer absolutely no mental or emotional pain from it. I wonder though, how is it possible to not be affected negatively in any way when you realize that the people who love you the most in this world thought nothing of striking you and instilling fear in you when there are perfectly gentle and effective alternatives.

You may wonder why I keep using terms like "hit" or "strike". That is exactly what you are doing. Sure, you (with society's help) can mask the real term for putting your hands on someone else to cause pain or fear as "spanking". In reality though, if you were committing the same action to anyone else but your child, it would be considered assault...even if it were on a "padded butt".

You can most certainly reason with a four year old, I have done it myself. Sure, it is not the same interaction as one with an adult, but it is possible. In your described situation, I would have said to my four year old..."I would appreciate it if you didn't play with those lights because I am afraid the tree will fall down." I would then redirect my child to something else pleasurable to play with. Sounds simple, but it usually works.

You are probably thinking, but I have to teach him a lesson! He has to know playing with the lights is bad bad bad!!! That is untrue in my opinion. Think of the same situation in the real world. You are at a friend's house and you see a lovely vase on the table. You pick it up and begin looking at it. Your friend doesn't want you to touch it because it is an antique from their dead grandmother or something. Your friend would not slap your hand and yell at you to put it down. Most likely they would say "That was my grandmother's and I am scared you may drop it." You would put the vase down. You weren't punished for showing interest in the vase, you weren't chastised. Much like your little boy and the lights, you thought the object was fascinating, and you wanted to look at it.

You are probably shaking your head and thinking, that would never work! I challenge you to this: You can go back to your method after you have tried mine for even 3 days. Are you up for it? Three days to see if the way I have described makes everyone's life more pleasurable.

The next time your son is doing something you don't want him to do, I challenge you to stop and think. Use the intelligence you have, coupled with the love you have for your child to look at life through his eyes for a moment. Instead of saying "NO!!" and hitting him on the butt, why don't you try the crazy, out there reasoning stuff? Why don't you trying saying "sweetie, I know you want to play with ____ but mama thinks you may break it/get hurt/make a mess/etc....but I know something fun we can do instead!" .... and redirect him to something you are okay with him playing with...

In my humble opinion, that teaches children the art of solving conflict with positive solutions that meet everyone's needs. It helps to build positive communication. It helps to build trust. It helps to create empathy for your feelings towards your belongings because while you may deny him one thing, you are attempting to give him another which meets his needs or wants. Aren't those the things that you want to be teaching instead of what you are teaching him now? Which is that he will get punished for taking interest in things that every four year old are attracted to...things like pretty lights.

He is not being bad, he is being four. Please remember that.

Captain Crunchy (real name though)

( I tried to be nice instead of calling her all kinds of expletives like I wanted...)


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

my response to that article can best be described by this smiley uke


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Oh man, I don't even know where to start ... I think if I wanted to truly comment on the article, I'd have to quote it sentence by sentence and then just put horrified smilies after them. Her impressions of children are frightening; her descriptions and comparrisons are down-right cruel. If I can compose myself even half as eloquently as captain crunchy, I'll send her off an email ... IF being the VERY operative word.




























:







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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Capt Crunchy--Oh, I really do hope she reads your letter. It is right on--and speaks to her actions and not to her as a person--which keeps it from an attack of any kind--so hopefully she'll read it--and then get it.
I fear, however, that because she is expecting The Letters (as she describes them) that she is already shut down to the notion of reading an opinion that differs from her own. Sigh.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i would send one to the editor of the paper. and one to her.

there were some very funny (and dead on) responses to her on the UP forum (on alfie kohn's site)


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

The more I think about this article, the sadder I get. If even one mommy takes her advice..........


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

Dude.


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## bethwl (May 10, 2003)

I'd love to hear someone like this woman's response to Unconditional Parenting. I'd love to hear her talk her way out of it. The reason I love that book so much is that he doesn't say "this is my opinion" but he cites study after study that supports what he is saying. I'm sure somehow he'd be wrong, though.


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## Hawkeyemama (Feb 8, 2005)

Captain Crunchy- I love that you gave her a very reasoned example of how she might talk with/redirect her toddler. I hope she reads your letter.


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## Jadzia (Jun 7, 2004)

I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.

Posted on 1/5/06:

Quote:

During a recent visit to the pediatrician for Ewan's year-old immunizations,
So she is spanking a BABY.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Captain Crunchy, you really ARE a super hero!







That's one heck of a letter.

(You should get your own comic, like Hathor







)


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jadzia*
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.











Not that it is ok at any age but a BABY! That makes me want to vomit.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought









Oh well, I tried.


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## bethwl (May 10, 2003)

The older child is 4.

But what gets me is that she was spanked as a child, too. It must not have affected her the way getting hit did me as a child. It may have made me stop doing whatever is was that I wasn't supposed to do, but it just made me seethe, too. How healthy.


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought









Oh well, I tried.

I think that is Liam, her older child, whom she appears to spank as well. I think your example is quite good.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Ah, I wish, but probably not. I just didn't want to be one of those "you bleeping bleep! You are a child abusing, controlling bleep who is damaging her kids!"....

Though it was tempting...
















Thanks though for your kind words all...


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Does she really believe a 1 year old can have a conversation like this:

Quote:

That's what he does, he looks straight at us whenever he does something bad.

"*What are YOU gonna do about this, woman*?" he says to me with his fat-faced, snowman eyes.
in his head? I mean really ... a 1 year old? Oh man ... makes me sick to think of her complete ignorance towards children (and babies).


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I just read the first few paragraphs to dd (8) and she said, "I hope he never finds out that his mom said that he has a fat face and snowman eyes. And it's really mean to hit your kid."


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.

Ok-- I'm sure this isn't going to make a big impact on Dawn, but as part of my belief in not hitting my child, the column provided a nice opportunity to talk about my child about it. So it was really interesting to see the expression on her face as she was listening to the column. When I read, "fat faced snowman eyes," she kind of flinched and raised her eyebrows and said, "She is his mom saying that?"


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## julesmom (Apr 18, 2005)

Awesome letter Capt. Crunchy!









And WOW! shanagirl...I think if anything will get thru to that woman, it will be the very true, very honest words of your compassionate dd.
What a proud mama you must be








.


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## Girl Named Sandoz (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.

Your daughter is so sweet and wise.

I knew I shouldn't have opened the article link.


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jadzia*
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.

And she expected a one-year old not to play with the Xmas tree lights? To sit quietly like a little doll instead of being a normal toddler? What is _wrong_ with her?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Capt. Crunchy and shanagirl's daughter both wrote wonderful, wonderful letters. I hope they have an impact on this woman. Maybe, just maybe, something will spark some doubt in her mind and she will reconsider.

It's so sad that people feel this way about children, my mother is a firm believer in spanking and will never understand why i don't hit my children.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

This line right here says so much about her character:

Quote:

Something more severe than hand-smacking but less severe than the Catherine Wheel. Thus, we instituted spanking.
Well I guess we should be thankful she didn't go for a medieval torture device??


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm totally being a post slut but here is my letter:

Quote:

Dear Ms. Loesch:

I was saddened to read your article in STLtoday and to learn that you have not found a more humane way to teach your children. In a broader sense I also am deeply concerned that others reading your article will take your words as a validation to committ child abuse. I have four children myself ages 15, 11, 3 1/2 and 10 months. I have never had to resort to hitting any of them and surprisingly enough I do not use Jedi mind tricks nor do I use medieval torture devices! 

It sounds in your article like you are unwilling to listen to other ideas for more gentle methods of disclipline - but I would like to urge you to reconsider. I know it's not easy being a parent and that learning yet another way to cope with the children when you believe you've found something that works OK for you may seem like a waste of time but I think you'll come to find this isn't the case. Being a gentle teacher is not only better for children but will be better for you! I know you must feel guilt and sadness when you resort to hitting - being gentle means you don't have to feel that way and your children don't have to wonder why Mommy thinks it's OK to hurt them. It's also important to remember that there will come a time when your child will be too old for you to hit and if you have not learned other effective ways to disclipline before then you will truly be at a loss.

I thank you for reading and (hopefully) rethinking some of the ideas expressed in your article. Should you find a more gentle method that works to your satisfaction I hope you will write about it and share with your readers.

Kind Regards,

Kitty


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## Miss Kitty (Jan 30, 2003)

A COPY OF THE EMAIL I SENT HER>

Toddlers are similar to dogs, and I know by experience. Similar to how a dog can only understand certain words when you talk to it, children choose only to hear the words which suit them best. At least mine do.

Let me explain what "discipline" acutually means. It means "to guide". The "rod" you speak of was used to guide the sheep, not to beat them. In all seriousness, you need a good parenting class, not a blog.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I couldnt just let it go either, since she has made all of the most common misassumptoins and shows such lack of understanding of children:

Quote:

Dear Mrs. Loesch,

I was deeply saddened by your article "Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it."
While it saddens me that you have chosen to educate your children with violence, many less educated than you continue to do the same thing. What really saddens me is that you started out with the intention NOT to spank, and the heartfelt understanding that your children need your kindness and not your anger and pain. But you have given up without even trying.
You say you "Spared the ROD" but how can this be when the children you are spanking are babies? If you spank a 1 year old, when, if ever was this "rod" spared?
It also appears very clearly that any amount of educating yourself on the subject of child development; communication and discipline would have solved these problems for you without having to resort to violence.
For example, if you knew that your 1 year old looks at you when doing something "bad" because he is looking for your reaction to guide him. You would not feel the need to strengthen that reaction with violence. If you knew that he is using his hands, eyes and ears to learn about the world and cause and effect, you would certainly never interpret his look as "What are YOU gonna do about this woman?" A one year old is not interested in challenging you. It is your skewed perception of the event that interprets it in this way.
And if the question should arise what YOU are going to do about it, there are other ways to stop him from playing in the Christmas Tree lights other than hitting him. The failing in discipline in this area was due to your lack of creativity and not his resistance to direction. For a one year old, the ONLY reasonable action would be to go him and remove him from the lights yourself. For you expect too much when you expect a one year old to have full impulse control and the ability to put your instructions before his own.
Second of all, I can assure you, that as a mother of four children, three of them toddlers, I am perfectly capable of teaching them how to behave with neither Jedi mind tricks nor violence. Any amount of study on your part could give you the tools you need to be an effective parent. Your children do not deserve pain and punishment for your lack of willingness to try anything else.
You state that children speak "another language". Again, any amount of investigation on this matter would have divulged to you that young children cannot process negative commands, and they generally leave out "don't" . This, again is VERY EASY to solve without violence. Instead of telling your child what NOT to do, tell them what to do.
Again your children are experiencing pain and violence as a result of your own unwillingness to understand them.
You believe so strongly in spanking, yet with children so young, you can hardly have given anything else a chance.
I can tell you unequivocally that my children also are fully capable of responding to the word "no" on the first request. And this is without ever having hit them at all.
You say that you wish to be a " padawan" in the Jedi mind games required to teach children without violence. Perhaps you should pick up a book.
I would highly recommend William Sears book "The Discipline Book" for Starters. This father of 8 shows very clearly that good behavior can be attained without any violence. As a follow up I would also suggest you indulge yourself in a copy of Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting."
You say that you were spanked yourself. And that you believe that spanking is therefore an effective means to educate. But I would ask you, how much have you been willing to educate yourself as an adult without that threat of further spanking?
Your unwillingness to undergo any voluntary self-improvement, (by learning even the most basic understanding of child development that every parent ought to be required to learn) without force ought to be in itself a deterrent to using force and violence to educate your own children. Did you grow up to steal cars? No indeed. But you grew up to think it was ok to hit those you love, and that it was better and more expedient to improve your children through violence than to improve yourself through voluntary education.

Shame on you,

Sincerely,
Johub


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

Please tell me that she did not actually say this:

Quote:

Besides, why else do you think we had kids? To smack them!
That is just plain sick.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

OMG Joline! How is it that you said exactly what I wanted to say to her! (though I definitely wouldn't have said it as well, and would probably not have sent it lol)
You sent that, right? I love it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
(snip)
*It also appears very clearly that any amount of educating yourself on the subject of child development; communication and discipline would have solved these problems for you without having to resort to violence.*
For example, if you knew that your 1 year old looks at you when doing something "bad" because he is looking for your reaction to guide him. You would not feel the need to strengthen that reaction with violence. If you knew that he is using his hands, eyes and ears to learn about the world and cause and effect, you would certainly never interpret his look as "What are YOU gonna do about this woman?" A one year old is not interested in challenging you. *It is your skewed perception of the event that interprets it in this way.*
And if the question should arise what YOU are going to do about it, there are other ways to stop him from playing in the Christmas Tree lights other than hitting him. The failing in discipline in this area was due to your lack of creativity and not his resistance to direction. For a one year old, the ONLY reasonable action would be to go him and remove him from the lights yourself. *For you expect too much when you expect a one year old to have full impulse control and the ability to put your instructions before his own.*
Second of all, I can assure you, that as a mother of four children, three of them toddlers, I am perfectly capable of teaching them how to behave with neither Jedi mind tricks nor violence. Any amount of study on your part could give you the tools you need to be an effective parent. Your children do not deserve pain and punishment for your lack of willingness to try anything else.
You state that children speak "another language". Again, any amount of investigation on this matter would have divulged to you that young children cannot process negative commands, and they generally leave out "don't" . *This, again is VERY EASY to solve without violence. Instead of telling your child what NOT to do, tell them what to do.*
Again your children are experiencing pain and violence as a result of your own unwillingness to understand them.
(snip)


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Great letter Joline!!!

I couldn't help myself, I wrote another one under my husband's email address (with his ok)
















Hello there.

I was shocked and dismayed to read your article on spanking. It was troubling indeed. I don't exactly know what I find more troubling: The fact that you resort to hitting small children as a means to gaining their obedience, or the fact that you willingly and proudly have no issue showing your readers your apparent incompetence and shortcomings in the areas of self control, critical thinking skills, positive conflict resolution, and anger management.

Being a parent is about having control. You, however, have been horribly misguided into believing that the control must be over your child instead of having control over yourself. You are expecting a young toddler and a preschooler to exhibit traits (self control, self discipline, respect) that you appear to lack yourself. How is that an effective teaching tool?

If your goal is blind obedience, I am sure you will achieve that until a certain age. There comes an age though, where threats, manipulation, and hitting will be ineffective. Around that same time, your children will have had enough experience around others to know that not all parents hit their children. That creates the inevitable situation where your previous parenting "tools" are not only ineffective, but you will also have to deal with the fact that your hitting them never taught positive communication. Where do you go from there? Military school?

I highly suggest mastering the traits you strive to teach your children before expecting them to.

All the situations you described in your article are the normal behaviors of curious young children. Is it your goal to extinguish their normal, happy exploration of their surroundings and replace it with fear of you? It may not be your goal, but it will become your result.

That, I can guarantee.

Captain (under hubbys name







)


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

OK. I'm newly pregnant and entirely hormonal but her letter was so great that I just sat here and bawled my eyes out. What a great dd you have!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I can't read the link because I'm just so worn out on people hurting children right now that I feel like screaming.

Wonderful letters, though, everybody.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Any responses or clues that she read any of these letters?
I don't want to open the links, but maybe she wrote ion her blog or something?

This is just heartbreaking. ITA with Shanagirl's dd.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I understand parents being ignorant and non-intuitive enough that all they can come up with is hurting their kids to get them to stop doing things they don't want them to do. I get that. It's a big paradigm shift (to not think that way) and involves suspending your assumptions about *why* children behave the way they do, and the ability to step outside of youself to see things from their perspective. It also means that you actually *care* about doing the right thing by your child, and not just about your own convenience and sense of control.

So, I get that some people are just not capable of that. "They know not what they do." I mean, I think this applies to all of us to some degree or other, so I'm probably not one to judge there.

What upsets me, though, is when I come across someone who apparently *does* have some sense somewhere deep inside of them that it is wrong to inflict physical pain on others, and deal with this moral conflict by pretending the whole thing is really very silly and funny. It's a coping mechanism, and it's pathetic and sad. I don't spend a lot of time around people who hurt their children for control purposes, so I don't know how common this is, but I did have close-up experience with it once, with my ex-SIL -- once when I was visiting, one of her children came out to tell on the other for some offense, and she took a flat-bottomed collander out of the cupboard and went back to where they were. After a few moments she came back (apparently that time it was just being used as a threat because I heard nothing) and when I looked confused she said lightly, laughing, "oh, the holes make it more aerodynamic." I was horrified. How she could hit her kids with such a thing, I don't know, but then to speak of it so blithely, even happily? That is evidence of a sick soul.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Man. It's things like this that make me realize how far out of the mainstream I actually am. (And I'm hardly granola, really. "Sprinkled.") To spank a one-year-old for touching the Christmas tree???? Holy crap. The things people think of.


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## Jadzia (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Any responses or clues that she read any of these letters?
I don't want to open the links, but maybe she wrote ion her blog or something?

http://www.mamalogues.com/2005/12/fe...-spanking.html


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

For me that main point of her article justified taking spanking lightly and the laxa-daisy (sp?) attitude she has towards hitting. It's like she's saying, I dont have time to read up on different styles of parenting so Im just going to go with spanking because how badly can it harm my kids if "everyone" else is spanking?
If you read her blog and the responses to her article, most of the people chimed in with "I was spanked and I'm ok". She doesnt seem to care that she's perpetuating this nonchalant attitude in people about spanking.
I'm sure all of the wonderful letters that you mamas wrote, were viewed in her eyes as "attacks". She simply does not see the damage she's doing...not just to her own children but to society in general.
I'm truly disheartened by that article but moreso by the fact that she's not the only one out there who makes jokes about "beating" their kids


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I shouldn't have ever read the link. It sickens me that there are people out there like her everyday, just walking along next to me in the grocery store and such. If I saw her on the street I would probably think, she looks pretty cool (or whatever)....but inside lies the mind of a sadist.

It's scary.

God, the "feedback" on her blog is shocking... I posted a comment that she probably won't approve.

It said:

So your gauge of whether or not spanking damages a child is based on whether they grow up to steal cars or sell crack? Most assault victims, rape survivors, or even survivors of the Holocaust don't wind up stealing cars or selling crack. Does that mean they weren't damaged? Under your twisted logic, I guess not.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I couldn't read the article because I don't have the stomach for it right now. But the reply letters have been wonderful and so gentle and exactly what I think she should hear. I hope she doesn't get one single blasting letter because she will try to use that to write the whole group off. But hopefully she'll read and think about it all.


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## ~Scapegoat~ (Jul 30, 2004)

I dont think she cares or that she is in the right state of mind to change. As long as she has plenty of people patting her on her back saying "I was spanked too and I am fine" then she probably wont care. The comments on her blog, from her and the readers are really appauling. I cant believe she is hitting a one year old, over a Christmas tree at that.
Lets celebrate Christ by putting up a tree that our toddler will be attracted too and smack him for it. Barf!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Here's the one I'm sending:
Dear Dana,

I'm writing to you in the hope that this is the one letter you actually read, the one letter
that makes whatever crucial difference is necessary to make. You claim to be a Christian,
a soi-disant "Jesus freak," so by virtue of that self-definition, I am imploring you to do
what anyone who calls themselves "Christian" in the genuine sense of the word must do:
act like Christ.

It's difficult to see how we appear to others sometimes. I am hoping that your image is
merely that: a public persona generated for the purpose of selling more copies of the St.
Louis paper or attracting more visitors to your blog -- an authorial voice speaking in a
kind of Vickie Iovine-inspired combination of ennui and brittle nonchalance.
Dana, I implore you to consider how you must appear not only to myself, but to others.
Please, please ask yourself if these statements, which seem so hostile, represent the "real
you," or if this is how someone who is striving to be a follower of Christ should appear:
* "...it's usually all my kids' fault..."
* "I don't say dirty words anymore UNLESS I'm yelling at my kids...."
* "I own a gun which I always make sure is loaded and unlocked for my kids to play
with..."
* "Did you seriously think that something which began by RAMMING ITS WAY OUT OF
YOUR VAGINA was going to be a cakewalk?"
*[Referring to your child Ewan] "...his fat-faced, snowman eyes."
There's so much apparent hostility toward your child here, so much anger and hate.
Dana, this is your child, your child, the one you grew, the one who expects you to protect
him and love him, to give your life for him as God gave his life for his own children, in
Christian belief. Can you really, under any circumstances, imagine Jesus spanking your
child? Can you imagine him referring to Ewan's "fat-faced snowman eyes," as if he were
not only physically repulsive to you, but somehow inhuman, cold, his eyes the burnt-out
coals of a "snowman"?

I can't.

Dana, you're having to escalate what you're doing. That's what violence does. Humans
are mightily resilient to violence; we get calloused fairly quickly. Violence begets more
violence which begets more violence. It's happening to you. See? "We've tried
smacking his hand, but lately noticed that it wasn't working because he would cackle and
grin whenever we did it and go right back to being naughty. When he proved immune to
hand-smacking, we knew we had to come up with a more intimidating form of
punishment, fast. Something more severe than hand-smacking but less severe than the
Catherine Wheel. Thus, we instituted spanking." It's not working. You're having to
escalate more and more. Where does it stop? Does it really have to end with your
sacrificing your child or your relationship with the child on the ultimately fragile wheel of
torture you invoke here -- a wheel that broke apart at Catherine's touch? Love, the story
suggests, or the divine power of God (whichever you prefer), is stronger than the violence
that would break it. Your solution is in your own heart and in your own words, if only
you would read them.

You suggest or imply more than once a degree of frustration in getting your children to
mind, which is something I can sympathize with deeply. I am not a perfect parent, nor do
I claim to hold the all-purpose solution to child behavior in my hand.
The only solution I have is this: love your children. Treat them as you would be treated:
that's the whole of the Law in one breath, isn't it? Monday-morning quarterbacking for a
second, if my child had been entangling herself in the Christmas tree, I would have led her
away from it. If she'd returned, I would explain why self-entanglement is wrong: the tree
could fall down, you could get hurt, et cetera. If she returned to the tree, I would have
given her a choice: leave it alone or we'll take away the object you're playing with.
Choices, consequences, explanations -- those aren't perfect solutions, but morally,
ethically, they are better solutions. It's closer to what one can imagine Jesus doing, isn't
it?

I realize it can be frustrating to reason with a child, but morally, ethically, it's the only
right thing. You have to teach them how to reason, to understand that there really are
reasons for things. Force is always easier, quicker...but it is not better. Force will
accomplish what you want: Maximinus got rid of Catherine by a quick beheading when
the wheel broke...but did it stop what she said? Who prevailed in the end, Dana -- the
Christians or the Roman emperors?

As a world, but certainly beginning as individuals and parents who shape the children of
our world's future, we must treat others as we would prefer to be treated. If you are
teaching your children that force is the way to get your children to accede to your will,
what will you do when you are powerless and they are powerful? You're in your twenties
now; you won't always be. In 2066, when you're in your eighties, will you be happy if
Liam and Ewan treat you as you've treated them? With all my heart, Dana, I hope you
will be, because I hope that, as I've said, this is the one letter that counts.

I would like you to consider one thing. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you.
It's within you; it's within your children. How can you strike a being who came from
God, who is of God and with God?

Better to love them.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i've been a fan of your writing style for quite a few years now, cb, but i think this may be the finest example i've read yet. yours may be the only letter that breaks through & accomplishes the goal. bravo, my dear.







(and i love the word soi-disant anyway, & long for places to use it







.)


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Anyone write to her sponsors, yet?
Babystyle, Netflix, The Body Shop, or Kabloom?
Anyone know who to contact about it or what to write?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well she's right about one thing:

Quote:

For instance, "Liam! Do not jump on your bed" becomes "Liam! Blah blah jump on your bed." The command "Liam! Do NOT flush your Weebles down the toilet!" becomes "Liam! Blah BLAH flush your Weebles down the toilet!" When I tell Ewan to leave something alone, like the trash can, it suddenly becomes more attractive than the proverbial apple of Eden.
She definitely shapes their focus onto what she doesn't want them doing. Talk about a set-up...

It seems she's completely ignoring that, even when it gets to a point where it appears that the violence has escalated as much as it can, her boys will simply avoid _her_ and not the behaviors she dosn't like. I see teenagers sneaking out of the house in her future... if she's lucky.

Poor, poor babies. Just poor things.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
If you read her blog and the responses to her article, most of the people chimed in with "I was spanked and I'm ok".

That "reasoning" drives me absolutely nutty. They think that it's acceptable to hit children. How "ok" can they be?


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well she's right about one thing:

She definitely shapes their focus onto what she doesn't want them doing. Talk about a set-up...

Arg, the quotes in quotes thing doesn't work, but your post isn't far above mine. Yep, you're exactly right. Sad.

I looked briefly at her blog; she quotes all sorts of people who wrote in to say they were spanked and don't sell crack. Does anyone here know anyone who DOES sell crack and was spanked as a kid? I'm serious. I would love to have them responding to her blog.









So sad. Ugh.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I didn't read the article - I'm just not in a place where I can face that kind of cruelty right now. It's interesting though, because my mother (a huge GD proponent) and I were having a conversation about tough ages and how to deal with them.

Me: They say the hardest age is two.
Mom: No, not in my book. Four, four and a half - those are hard ages.
Me: Really?
Mom: Yeah, at two they're still kind of sweet about their resistance. But four-year-olds will step across every boundary you set, then look at you and go, "Now what are you going to do about it?" It's tough. But they're also more sophisticated in what they can understand, so you have that going for you.
Me: I don't know. I feel I can do more with older kids. I think it's easier to talk to them.
Mom: Yes, that's true too.

So when I hear the spanking lady describe a scenario where her four-year-old crosses a boundary and then confronts her, and then uses that scenario to defend her reason to spank, I get a little sick to my stomach. Why oh why would you punish a child physically for doing something that is normal for their age... that's sick and wrong. That poor kid. Yes, the behavior is annoying, but learn to deal. You are the adult.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Well now I've not only lost respect for her as a mother but as a journalist as well - she only quoted the people that agreed with her. Whatever.

It's too bad she won't even seriously consider an alternative viewpoint.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Wow. That is truly disgusting.







I may be really dense, but was she trying to be funny?


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I am disgusted at how many positive responses she has received. I can't believe how many parents are agreeing with her for spanking that poor little BABY! Sick, sick, sick. But, I notice none of the eloquent letters written by MDC mamas are there. It makes me wonder if the overall response was indeed positive, or if she just posts comments from the freaks who actually agree with her.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I wonder - did she reply to anybody by any chance? I know she was probably overwhelmed with e-mails, but who knows?


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GriffinsMom*
I love how she insults the letter writers in the actual article. Its as if she thinks, "If I call them frothy-mouthed, perhaps they will be shamed into silence." She is so mis-lead that I'm not even sure where to start with an e-mail.









:

She apparently thinks that spanking improves kids' hearing as well....


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

[email protected]

I wouldn't waste my time with the author whose mind is made up. She doesn't sell crack, does she?

Letters to the editor sent to the above addy will suffice.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

CB, I love your writing. Love, love, love it. Every post you write is a joy to read.

You and the other mamas have helped me by posting your beautiful letters. You have undoubtedly helped other mamas as well. I don't spank, and I strive to be GD, but sometimes I fail and I yell. Your letter (and the others) are very helpful to me and will help keep me on the GD path.

Thank you all for sharing. Even if you don't get through to that icky woman, you will get through to all those who read your posts. Some of us work very hard within ourselves every day to undo the damage done to us as children, and we are trying to break the cycle so our children are treated better than we were. Your letters help very much.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadawg*
Wow. That is truly disgusting.







I may be really dense, but was she trying to be funny?

I think she was. How hitting your kid can ever be funny though I will never understand.









writermommy, I too am a bit shocked that she received so many positive responses - she seems almost disappointed that she didn't get more hate mail or maybe she's just pretending she didn't like you said.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Wow, Tiger Tail and Redwine...thank you!!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I got a response from her. I can't quote the whole thing for copyright reasons but I'll paraphrase...

Basically she said that I was one of two people that wrote to her in a gentle manner. She then went on to say that there is a difference between corporate punishment and child abuse (she's right there - one is legal, the other isn't). She accuses me of not reading her whole column defending herself by saying she only spanks when necessary. She also tells me she's ONLY spanked her 13 month old twice. Finishes off with some stuff about people not judging other parenting choices and urging me to read more of her stuff on her website.

Why on earth would I want to read more from her website??? How someone can think it's OK to spank a 13 month old I will never know.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I wrote back with this:

Quote:

Thank you for the reply. Just wanted to comment that I in fact did read the entire column, I'm not sure why you think I didn't. I'm sorry you will not look into other methods of discipline. You really don't know if other gentler methods will work until you try them - dismissing them is not constructive. Hitting a 13 month old baby is child abuse in my mind no matter how you sugar coat it. Best of luck to you and your family.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

WOW, spanking a baby, what a way to hit a life time low. Poor kid. Did she write back to anyone else. Did she comment to anyone why she feels it is ok to call her kids names?


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

she said "spanking isn't hitting." that was her whole defense.

how pathetic.

i just wanted to remind everyone that you should be able to go to her blog and leave a comment. a comment that she can't removed as far as i know. so all the letters she has been ignoring (anti-spanking) can get posted in the comments section of her blog. (actually it's her website so she might be able to take off the comments i don't know).

also, pass the article along to all the anti-spanking lists you know and encourage them to email her. normally i wouldn't say something like that, but man her attitude is just well, crappy.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

And here is the reply she sent me. Any of you mamas care to give me your .02 before I write back? I'd especially love to hear from anyone who describes her- or himself as Christian and/or anti-"rod." This is the entire letter, BTW, which begins as if in midsentence; I don't know why.

Maybe it's the crack?

[Edited to be in compliance with the UA]


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I read in interpritation of Proverbs 23:13-14 once. Christ came as the final sacrifice, to deliver our souls from Hell. To use proverbs as an excuse to beat a child means you are denying the Savior, as He is the only one who can save our souls from Hell.

Here is a good blog with some gentle Christian Biblical references http://www.xanga.com/MarynMunchkins


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## kaliki91 (Jan 9, 2006)

My reply:

"It is perfectly normal for a one-year-old to desire to explore a Christmas tree. In fact, it is CRITICAL for proper brain development that children explore things. You know that a Christmas tree has a rough, spindly texture. You know that the glassy balls are smooth to the touch. You even know that they are breakable. You know that the lights feel slightly warm and if you cup them in your closed hand, they will light up the dark. Your one-year-old does not know these things! The reason he has such a relentless drive to explore things - to touch, taste, and feast his little eyes on new things - is because it is absolutely critical to his developing brain. His synapses fire off at a rapid pace and vital neural connections are formed each time he explores something new! This is his first time seeing a Christmas tree - something new, wondrous, beautiful, and with infinite possibilities for exploration. Let him explore your tree. Hold his little hand and show him how to be gentle. Talk about the texture and the color. When you cannot supervise his access to the tree - simply gate it off! He is not being naughty by looking at you while he explores the tree. He is pleading with you - "I NEED to do this. I don't know why. I have a drive to explore new things. Please don't stop me!" I encourage you to read the book, "What's Going on in there? How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life" by Lise Eliot."


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

You should be very proud of your daughter.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.

Ok-- I'm sure this isn't going to make a big impact on Dawn, but as part of my belief in not hitting my child, the column provided a nice opportunity to talk about my child about it. So it was really interesting to see the expression on her face as she was listening to the column. When I read, "fat faced snowman eyes," she kind of flinched and raised her eyebrows and said, "She is his mom saying that?"


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

deleted


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## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

umm am I the exception apparently? I was spanked and I'm NOT ok. Not only was I spanked, but when I was a young girl learning how to ride horses I had a mentally and physically abusive instructor. She taught me that it was ok to beat an animal to death. (I am so sad to say that I'm not exaggerating, I witnessed her flip a horse that cracked his skull and died) She taught me that it's ok to call a 10 year old a stupid slut. It takes every ounce of self control I have not to react with violence when I am really upset. I still have issues with calling people I love horrible names. I have the ability to recognize that this behavior is wrong, but sometimes I don't have the ability to control it. Since my dd was born, it completely baffles me how my parents could have hit me, how any parent could hit their child. I look at my dd sleeping in my arms right now and I know that the only lessons she will ever learn from me are ones of pure love. I hope that the love for my daughter will overcome my past.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama*
I read in interpritation of Proverbs 23:13-14 once. Christ came as the final sacrifice, to deliver our souls from Hell. To use proverbs as an excuse to beat a child means you are denying the Savior, as He is the only one who can save our souls from Hell.

Here is a good blog with some gentle Christian Biblical references http://www.xanga.com/MarynMunchkins

Keep it comin', Jamesmama, because despite her inference, I am actually not a Bible thumper.







She defines herself as a "Jesus freak"; if she'd said she were a Buddha freak, I would've quoted the words of the Buddha.

And can anyone help here -- if you're Christian, doesn't the philosophy of Christ supersede any contradictory stuff in the OT? Like if Proverbs says "beat" and Christ says "don't beat," doesn't Christ's POV win?


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Ask her why her FIL, the reverend, has not managed to tell her about the real meaning behind 'spare the rod and spoil the child'. We were talking about this in another thread recently. Biblically the 'rod' was the staff which the shepherd used to guide the sheep. He would place the rod between the sheep and the danger, or he would gently guide the sheep with the rod. He didn't belt the sheep, hit them or spank them with it. The 'rod' in the Bible is gentle, non-violent guidance, not spanking.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Someone else already mentioned it, but she's setting her kids up for a self fulfilling prophecy. Parents shouldn't use 'don't' commands! If you only give a child one option, what are they going to do? If she said 'instead of jumping on your bed, how about you go outside and jump around the yard' he's got a different option. The child wouldn't have been hit for something she told him to do


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

I swear, I think she really is reacting specifically to the letters we sent her.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

As a Christian I totally disagree and hope you who are not Christians think that she speaks for all of us ......I think the proverbs verse she is referring to was not meant to be taken literal (correct me if i'm wrong) but I believe proverbs not to be "law". I am a Jesus follower and as a Jesus follower I would not invoke corporal punishment on my children because that's not how Jesus would have discipled! Fire and brimstone simply does not work on a 13 month old!!!!!!!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

CB, there are some wonderfully informative threads about Christianity and Discipline in the Religious Studies forum to search, one quite recent. Very, very applicable to what you're looking for








.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
As a Christian I totally disagree and hope you who are not Christians think that she speaks for all of us ......I think the proverbs verse she is referring to was not meant to be taken literal (correct me if i'm wrong) but I believe proverbs not to be "law". I am a Jesus follower and as a Jesus follower I would not invoke corporal punishment on my children because that's not how Jesus would have discipled! Fire and brimstone simply does not work on a 13 month old!!!!!!!





























































































I think most people on MDC realize that there are many Christians who don't beleive in corporal punishment! Personally, whenever I see anybody promoting violence in the name of religion (be it spanking or Jihad) I assume that they've completely misinterpreted their religious teachings.

You don't see advocates for spanking from Jewish sources (who read the Torah in its original Hebrew!) The "rod" or "staff" is used to GUIDE sheep, not beat them!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caloli*
We were talking about this in another thread recently. Biblically the 'rod' was the staff which the shepherd used to guide the sheep. He would place the rod between the sheep and the danger, or he would gently guide the sheep with the rod. He didn't belt the sheep, hit them or spank them with it. The 'rod' in the Bible is gentle, non-violent guidance, not spanking.

took words right out of my mouth, or right away from my fingers, so to speak!


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## bethwl (May 10, 2003)

I forgot also to mention that her little form letter, whose first two options state something to the effect of "I am a mother with no sense of humor who failed to see the tongue-in-cheek nature of this week's column."

I don't really see how it's tongue-in-cheek. Tongue-in-cheek means you are kidding. Dana is not. She spanks her kids, she's not kidding about that. What is the funny part? The "what do you think we had kids for? To smack'em!" I guess I would have a lot more respect for someone who actually did spank but did not treat the subject in so glib a manner.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I think most people on MDC realize that there are many Christians who don't beleive in corporal punishment! Personally, whenever I see anybody promoting violence in the name of religion (be it spanking or Jihad) I assume that they've completely misinterpreted their religious teachings.

You don't see advocates for spanking from Jewish sources (who read the Torah in its original Hebrew!) The "rod" or "staff" is used to GUIDE sheep, not beat them!

Thanks Ruth....I just get so ANGRY when I see people using Christianity as a crutch to hit their kids.....and I totally agree with you when you say the rod is to guide the sheep.....EXACTLY!!!!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Here's my reply! I used several of your ideas, Mamas, thanks!

Dear Dana,
What I said really stung. Your conscience is still there, then; it has not yet been buried under a shell of brittle dismissiveness. What I said got to you; it bugged you; nothing could be clearer. Your conscience will not leave you in peace. I would suggest that this is because you know what I said is true and the better part of you will not let that truth be dismissed with a flippant remark.

I'd like to respond to your specific comments individually.
[Note to MDCers -- I am paraphrasing here. Dana suggests that her comments were intended to evoke laughter.]

Oh, c'mon, Dana, I'm sure you remember Psych. 101 when they pointed out that humor is an "acceptable" social form of aggression? There's not much difference, after all, between
showing your teeth in a smile and showing them in a snarl...rather like the one on the homepage of your blog. You're snarling, Dana, not smiling. You use humor -- or
what part of you calls humor -- as a disguise for aggression often, I'm thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if you've said things like, _"It was just a joke! Can't you take a
joke? I was just KIDding_..." quite a great deal in response to others' hurt feelings. Or horror. But what you also learned in Psych 101 is that people who snarl do so because they are scared. Anger, humor, lashing-out -- those are done because the person doing them is driven, deep down, by fear.

[Here, Dana asserts her maternal feelings for her offspring]

I think you do love them. It's that love I'm hoping to appeal to, because I believe that's the better part of you -- of us all, really. In our love for our children, we have the power
to make our children into our better selves, the selves we should have been. The glorious surprise is that in trying to make them better than we are, we end up becoming better
people ourselves. The clay has shaped the sculptor.
_
[Here, Dana alludes to her child:snowman comparison and asserts that it was a charming way to portray her son's obesity]_

Ah, but why is your metaphor such a cold one? And why use a word as "fatness," widened even more by your extra 't,' in a culture which despises fat?

_[Here, Dana asserts her lack of emotional investment in my dissent]
_
This must be why you have spent the near-entirety of your email thus far explaining this to me.

[Here, Dana asserts her lack of appreciation of those who strike the Bible with their fists so as to produce a resonant sound]

Dana, who is calling him- or herself a "Bible thumper"? Who are you really speaking of here? If you had been Confucian, I would have quoted you the words of K'ung Fu-Tzu.
Since you are a "Jesus freak," I used the words of Jesus. So, this suggests that many other people besides me suggested that if you are going to call yourself Christian, you
should follow Christ. I agree.

[Dana suggests that I misquoted the Bible in my letter to her]

Which word was distorted, Dana? The one where Jesus says, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the
Prophets" (Matthew 7:12)?

[Dana asserts her religious provenance: her FIL's religious profession, her FIL's tenuous connection with C.S. Lewis, and demands that I refrain from attempting to educate her on the subject.]

My father-in-law is an accountant. That doesn't qualify me to be a company comptroller. Why shine in borrowed light anyway, Dana? I wouldn't care if you were the illegitimate
child of the late Pope, to be honest; it neither lends you credibility nor does it detract from
it. I'm far more interested in dealing with you, not the men in your family or in their achievements. Their achievements are theirs. Not yours.

[Dana quotes Proverbs 23:13-14]

Then call yourself a Proverbian (although I also like "Proverbial"). If you are going to call yourself a follower of Christ, though, be like Christ. The man who wrote this proverb presumably beat his son -- and that son grew to be a tyrant. No surprise.

Violence begets violence. An eye for an eye, as Ghandi observed, will make the whole world blind. That's why Christ preached nonviolence -- and in Christian belief, isn't
Christ the only one who can save people's souls from Hell? Not you? Your beating your child with the rod will not deliver your child's soul from Hell, but it may have other costs.
You've already seen what your column advocating violence has done to you and your family: it brought the threat of more violence, didn't it? I can only imagine how terrifying
that must have been if you took it seriously, and it sounded from your blog as if you did. What do you imagine would have happened if you'd written about something much more
genuinely radical: loving your children?

Dana, you can't be a Christian and strike your child. Oh, sure, you can call yourself whatever you want -- you can call yourself an emu or a toaster, but it doesn't make you _be_ an emu or a toaster. _To be a Christian you have to follow Christ_, and the whole of the message of Christ, the one that is more important than anything that Abraham said or David said or Isaiah said or anyone said is simply this: "treat others the way you want to be treated."

Dana, I know no one is perfect at doing that. No one -- me, you, anyone -- is a perfect parent or a perfect person. But the reason this message is a valid one is that it is a place to start: How should I treat this person? What would I want in their place? Bottom line, for the followers of Christ -- the real "Jesus freaks" -- the message is not one of brutality or violence. It's about letting go of anger, even righteous anger. It's about not just deciding not to strike back, it's about loving the person who struck you. It's about seeing that of God in everyone, beginning (I hope) with our children.

And maybe even ending with ourselves.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

CB .....










































You have done it again.....your words are so eloquent ....thank you for writing something so beautiful that hopefully will strike the very core of her being and at least begin a change in her views of spanking ....


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

So her father in law had a MENTOR who was a PROTEGE of the late, great CS Lewis and THAT means she is an authority on Jesus and all things biblical?

Oh.

This logic gives me the total creeps, and helps me understand what kind of person we are dealing with, and I wish I had never read the original link to her column. It's a total waste of time to correspond with her.

I did tell her as a PS to my daughter's letter that I had just come across something really fascinating in a book about studies/interviews done on the people who had risked their own lives to help Jewish people escape Germany during WWII. The bottom line is, what all the rescuers had in common was that their parents had rarely hit them as children, and did not subscribe to the harsh child rearing practices of the time (later referred to as the Black Pedagogy). These children grew into people who were confidently, and quickly, able to reject authority when they knew it was wrong, and ACT with great empathy at the risk of their own lives.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bailey228*
umm am I the exception apparently? I was spanked and I'm NOT ok.

I was spanked and I'm NOT ok either.







My relationship with my parents is distant even though we live within minutes of each other. I grew up wondering why my parents could strike me and then later tell me they loved me. These two don't mesh in my mind, they never have. When I was a teenager I was a runaway, I was wild, I was rebellious beyond normal. My parents tried talking to me then because I was too big to "spank" but ya know what - it was too late. I had no respect for them by that point and we had no connection.

*Dana*, you've made no bones about letting me know you are reading these posts on Mothering so I will address you here rather then in another e-mail... It's easy to be dismissing and write all us off as not understanding. Maybe we all just have easier kids then you? Maybe gentle methods only work for us but your kids have to be hit to understand? Really that's not true.

I think you do have a point in that if what you are after are children that obediantly obey you on first command (like a trained dog) then striking them will most certainly help you achieve this kind of relationship. But please consider that maybe you should be trying to achieve a relationship on a deeper level, one that involves a mutual trust and understanding.

I still haven't given up on you! I really think there might be hope because you are willing to at least discuss these issues. Please read the GD board here or some GD books and like someone else here urged you - give it just THREE WEEKS. THREE LITTLE WEEKS. Then you can write a column about your experiences in taking our 3 week test. What do you think?


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

Matthew 19:14 (New International Version)

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Just guessing here, but I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't want the people that the kindom of heaven belongs to, to be beaten. Ya know?


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

CB, you are amazing. Thank you again.

I hope this woman's children NEVER find her written descriptions of them or her confessions of "justified" violence. She will be a very lonely old lady indeed once her kids grow to understand how badly they were treated.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Just want to add one final point out to Dana... If someone were to go to your offices and beat you into submitting an article that renounces spanking well then the beating would have produced a desired result and therefore would be deemed "effective", no? But yet in your mind nothing has changed, you still would believe that spanking is OK and in fact you might even be more focused on this simply BECAUSE someone tried to physically force you to think otherwise. So while on the outside the person that beat you would think their methods worked, inside you would know the truth.

Think on that for a moment please.


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaliki91*
My reply:

"It is perfectly normal for a one-year-old to desire to explore a Christmas tree. In fact, it is CRITICAL for proper brain development that children explore things. You know that a Christmas tree has a rough, spindly texture. You know that the glassy balls are smooth to the touch. You even know that they are breakable. You know that the lights feel slightly warm and if you cup them in your closed hand, they will light up the dark. Your one-year-old does not know these things! The reason he has such a relentless drive to explore things - to touch, taste, and feast his little eyes on new things - is because it is absolutely critical to his developing brain. His synapses fire off at a rapid pace and vital neural connections are formed each time he explores something new! This is his first time seeing a Christmas tree - something new, wondrous, beautiful, and with infinite possibilities for exploration. Let him explore your tree. Hold his little hand and show him how to be gentle. Talk about the texture and the color. When you cannot supervise his access to the tree - simply gate it off! He is not being naughty by looking at you while he explores the tree. He is pleading with you - "I NEED to do this. I don't know why. I have a drive to explore new things. Please don't stop me!" I encourage you to read the book, "What's Going on in there? How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life" by Lise Eliot."


This made me cry! Great writing.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Another "spankee" who was not OK...

I have no connection to my family of origin, except for my mother. It's funny, huh, that all of them are spanking, "Jesus Freaks", with the execption of my mother who dissented the spanking culture back in the 70's - and never lay a hand on me?


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I use our playpen for the Christmas tree for safety. I can't imagine putting something up like a Christmas tree, fill it up with attractive, breakable ornaments, and then spank a two or three year old for touching it.

Yeesh.

I emailed her.


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

I've read through this whole thread - - what an amazing, powerful collection of thoughts. CB, wonderful letter! Thanks to those who are so passionate about speaking out on this issue and who care enough to write letters.

I was spanked often and disciplined in other humilating ways (hot sauce on the tongue, etc.). I have no memory of any of those punishments hurting physically - what I remember is the humiliation, the anger, the utter feeling of powerlessness. I'm actually close to my parents today, and I have made peace with the fact that *they* felt helpless and out of control and made disciplinary choices that were the product of their own upbringing(s). I guess you could say I have forgiven them for all the hitting, but I certainly have not forgotten the way it made me feel. It was terrible, dehumanizing, disempowering, and nothing I would ever want to inflict on a child.

Peace, mamas.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i think newpapers like to give the impression that they are presenting both sides of an issue.

i think it might be really great if someone submitted a piece for the op-ed page on spanking. including the most recent research on spanking and maybe something from alice ****** and her recent stuff on how a very punitive school of parenting existed in gemany during the childhoods of many that grew up to be natzis (or stand by doing nothing) would have the most impact i think.

thoughts?


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
I use our playpen for the Christmas tree for safety. I can't imagine putting something up like a Christmas tree, fill it up with attractive, breakable ornaments, and then spank a two or three year old for touching it.

Yeesh.

I emailed her.

i want to strongly encourage all of you to not bother emailing her, but instead leave comments on her blog http://www.mamalogues.com and to send letters to the editor of the newspaper that ran the article. otherwise i think it's waste of your typing and honest reaction.

[email protected]


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

I find it humorous that she refers to those of us who _don't_ resort to physical violence as Frothy Mouthed Militants! I never would have equated Militant with loving guidance and natural consequenses, but I guess I was wrong. Hmmm. I'm a frothy mouth militant when I reason with or redirect my kid instead of smacking him out of anger. Who knew?

Rigama,
Proud Frothy mouthed militant!(Hey, I think I just found my siggy!)


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
i want to strongly encourage all of you to not bother emailing her, but instead leave comments on her blog http://www.mamalogues.com and to send letters to the editor of the newspaper that ran the article. otherwise i think it's waste of your typing and honest reaction.

[email protected]

After being in a completely pointless back and forth with her over the last couple of days I must say I am ITA. She is firm in her belief that there is nothing wrong with what she is doing. My heart breaks for her children and for the children of all those parents that will follow her advice.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
After being in a completely pointless back and forth with her over the last couple of days I must say I am ITA. She is firm in her belief that there is nothing wrong with what she is doing. My heart breaks for her children and for the children of all those parents that will follow her advice.










INTERESTINGLY she has not responed to me at all. It is interesting because unlike some here I did not tell her that she should let her child do the things that she does not want him to. Nor did I tell her spanking was abuse.

Rather I simply told her that spanking was COMPLETELY uncesscarry to get her child to do what she wanted.

I told her that I expect my children to obey me, yet use GD methods and do not punish let alone spank or slap. My children, who are older than hers are extremely well behaved.

I challenged her to try these methods (set out by Anthony Wolf in his books).

No response. Not suprising since what can she say. "I actuallyl want to hit my kids"????????


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
After being in a completely pointless back and forth with her over the last couple of days I must say I am ITA. She is firm in her belief that there is nothing wrong with what she is doing. My heart breaks for her children and for the children of all those parents that will follow her advice.









So how has she justified her parenting? Does she really feel like her baby is being defiant? Or was she just trying to be funny?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

She hasn't responded to me either...


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
INTERESTINGLY she has not responed to me at all. It is interesting because unlike some here I did not tell her that she should let her child do the things that she does not want him to. Nor did I tell her spanking was abuse.

Rather I simply told her that spanking was COMPLETELY uncesscarry to get her child to do what she wanted.

I told her that I expect my children to obey me, yet use GD methods and do not punish let alone spank or slap. My children, who are older than hers are extremely well behaved.

I challenged her to try these methods (set out by Anthony Wolf in his books).

No response. Not suprising since what can she say. "I actuallyl want to hit my kids"????????









I'm not surprised either. Since you offer proof that GD works in the long term to achieve her goals, it's more difficult to dismiss your argument. It's easier for her to think non spankers are jellyfish moms with kids that don't behave. She doesn't strike me as well educated in discipline, or parenting for that matter. Nor do I think she has any interest in becoming educated.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I still haven't given up on you! I really think there might be hope because you are willing to at least discuss these issues. Please read the GD board here or some GD books and like someone else here urged you - give it just THREE WEEKS. THREE LITTLE WEEKS. Then you can write a column about your experiences in taking our 3 week test. What do you think?

HelloKitty, what a great idea! Though I noticed that she's taken to criticizing the spelling and grammatical mistakes of her attackers, not a good sign. I don't think she'd ever try it, she doesn't seem very willing to look at any other viewpoints. Maybe we should dare her...


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
So how has she justified her parenting? Does she really feel like her baby is being defiant? Or was she just trying to be funny?

She has justified it by saying she's tried other methods and they didn't work. She really thinks her child is being defiant and should obey her it seems. And yes I think she was also trying to be funny.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
HelloKitty, what a great idea! Though I noticed that she's taken to criticizing the spelling and grammatical mistakes of her attackers, not a good sign. I don't think she'd ever try it, she doesn't seem very willing to look at any other viewpoints. Maybe we should dare her...

Yeah in her last correspondance she also insulted those of us that use message boards. While she previously confessed to reading what everyone wrote here, now she is saying she simply has too much of a life to come back. I don't buy that however. I think she is way too chicken to take our dare. She wouldn't have the ovaries to admit she was wrong.


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
I wonder - did she reply to anybody by any chance? I know she was probably overwhelmed with e-mails, but who knows?

She replied to a friend of mine. It was pretty much what you would imagine.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
She hasn't responded to me either...

She has claimed that there were only two non-spankers that were polite in their correspondance to her and that she had to call the police on someone for threatening to physically assault her at her work. (I guess hitting it only appropriate for children in her mind.) She says that all of us are judgmental and intolerant.

She also told me she was spanked as a child and her husband was too and they are perfectly fine and they deserved every swat they got.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Weird because I didn't think I was "impolite". My letters are posted here. However, recalling her sentiment on the issue at hand, it occurs to me that anyone who doesn't agree with her sadistic approach to parenting and her apparent disregard of her children's feelings is probably deemed impolite in her view.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I didn't think you were impolite either CC, not at all. Just wanted to share what she said. She's a bit irrational.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Wow. Sad, sad, article. I'd be so ashamed if my children read my insulting "humor" ("fat-faced, snowman eyes") about them. I blog, I'm into "unconventional" humor, but just don't think it's cute or amusing to hear about a mom hitting her kids. (BTW, I construe "spanking" to be just a euphemism for "hitting"...same kettle of fish, there...) Ugh...

Funny how if she were to hit her husband, co-worker, mother, friend, etc., it'd be _illegal_, but a toddler....it's "_parenting_"


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Hmmm....lots of "guests" here tonight, eh?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

This bit bothered me the most:

Quote:

His eyes widened, he shook his arms, screamed, and gave us a horrified look.

Quote:

Of course, at that moment, I didn't care what trouble he got into just so long as he never looked at me like that again.
So, the mother instinct IS there!!!

Quote:

He had convinced himself that no one could possibly spank anyone so unbelievably adorable, not twice at least, and his cuteness was his ticket to ride
Yep, that's exactly what women think the first time their husbands lay hands on them. Not the irrational "How can somebody that LOVES me do that to me" junk. That's how I control my husband too - with my cuteness


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I have removed a few posts that were in violation of our posting rules. This thread is now reopen for discussion. Please word your posts so as to discuss the topic without attacking or insulting the author despite what she has written in her blog about our community and that of others who have spoken out against her advocacy of spanking infants and children.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Another thought...I think a lot of this boils down to what you believe, as a parent, is the role of "discipline." For me, personally, it is to teach. I'm a GD mom, but I'm actually pretty strict and set many boundaries. I try to teach my children, not punish them for infractions until I have scared robots in front of me. My goal is to help them become happy, responsible people.

I guess I still don't understand what hitting children teaches them. I always think about what happens in the "real" (grown-up) world. If someone makes you angry at the office...you can't just haul off and punch them.









Finally, it's not that I don't understand how people reach thier limits, get angry, get frustrated, etc. But let's just say you do "snap" and spank, and then see the result (a scared, upset child), I honestly don't get how you can say "this is what I do" and decide that this will be your method of "discipline"....doesn't a sense of right and wrong kick in about hitting your child??


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
I guess I still don't understand what hitting children teaches them. I always think about what happens in the "real" (grown-up) world. If someone makes you angry at the office...you can't just haul off and punch them.









I never thought of that! And it seems that the people who spank, generally seem to believe that kids need limits/punished/etc because "they need to be prepared for the real world."

Just wanted to thank you for giving me another good comeback about spanking


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
I have removed a few posts that were in violation of our posting rules. This thread is now reopen for discussion. Please word your posts so as to discuss the topic without attacking or insulting the author despite what she has written in her blog about our community and that of others who have spoken out against her advocacy of spanking infants and children.










wow, did I get a post removed from this thread? I'm positive I posted to it...
but I'm also pretty certain I didn't say anything that offensive, now I can't find my post, ah well, whatever









anyway, as far as I remember, the gist of my post was that the only thing spanking teaches a child is not to get caught next time.

err, I didn't get my hand slapped there did I?


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

http://www.mamalogues.com/

man i hope her poor kids never read that blog when they grow up...































































:







:

she's gonna talk to mothering's sponsors, she gonna do this, she's gonna to that... i guess the best defense is an offense.... man i wish i were so cock-sure of all my discipline practices to defend it and herself...like she does...

(PS in the comments someone said MDC is a bunch of "hippy bullhocky!!" yeah cause you know anyone not hitting their kids are just a bunch of stupid stoned hippies, dontcha know. [bullhocky?? i haven't heard that since i was like 5 and visiting my babysitter's amish family])


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
I have removed a few posts that were in violation of our posting rules. This thread is now reopen for discussion. Please word your posts so as to discuss the topic without attacking or insulting the author despite what she has written in her blog about our community and that of others who have spoken out against her advocacy of spanking infants and children.










cynthia, does she actually have any legal recourse for anything sent to her by anyone who is a memeber of MDC?? i mean it seems it would be covered by first amendment rights and hey she does have her email at the bottom of her articles.

what are your thoughts about her saying in her blog she was gonna take action. (sounds to me she was pretty hyped up when she wrote that blog entry)


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
cynthia, does she actually have any legal recourse for anything sent to her by anyone who is a memeber of MDC?? i mean it seems it would be covered by first amendment rights and hey she does have her email at the bottom of her articles.

what are your thoughts about her saying in her blog she was gonna take action. (sounds to me she was pretty hyped up when she wrote that blog entry)

I believe that an attack on another individual is against the user agreement for MDC. I just read it on another thread, so it's fresh in my memory. It's OK to attack spanking, but not to attack the author with ad hominem statements.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I just read that Jan 9 post, and boy is it transparent. It reeks of defensiveness, and of guilt.

Any sane person would read that, be curious, go to the MDC boards (she posts a link), and quickly realize that this is a gentle group, with strong opinions. She describes us in such a vile way that it is obvious she has been emotionally affected by what she has read. Something is getting through to her.

Anyway, those curious will come to MDC and hopefully learn something! Look at it this way -- it's advertisement to a crowd that would not usually come here. Maybe more people will learn not to hit their kids by reading through all the posts by you wonderful mamas!


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I just read it. So, were "militant" cool. I love the way she characterized the letters as rude, vile insults and threats. Since many of the letters were posted right here on this forum and I read them, I can safely say this is a gross exaggeration. I notice she is still making herself feel better by posting an excerpt from one letter that is anti spanking and following it up from yet more pats on the back from the spanking crowd. I can't believe so many people are supporting hitting a baby.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I didn't bother writing a letter to her, somehow she got it in her head that striking her children is ok, and I doubt anyone on here or elsewhere is going to convince her otherwise. The fact that she is writing a "light hearted" and "humorous" aritcle about it is proof enough of that fact. I found her article disturbing and sad, not at all funny. It's sad to think that she is influencing others with her archaic opinions. Regardless of her personal parenting beliefs, she is in the media and I think she has a responsibilty to her readers to not advocate violence.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm not allowed to post a quote from there verbatim?? Is that so?? (I'm a little foggy on why we can sometimes quote others and sometimes it's against UA...) If someone could set me straight about that I'd be very much obliged!

This is from the comments:

(paraphrasing)

Someone says that they will now become vocal and impolite while we who are insane (dependent upon the stages of the moon) prosylitize our dangerous substance.

_Wow!_ Just. Wow.

Riiiiiiiiiigghhtt. There's just not even a response to something so "off".
















And I really have to laugh that they see MDC as so militant fringe, but I guess we are to them. I actually find this board to be way more mainstream than _my_ leanings,







so I sometimes forget about how the rest of the world see things...

I agree with everything Sharlla said.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
And I really have to laugh that they see MDC as so militant fringe, but I guess we are to them. I actually find this board to be way more mainstream than _my_ leanings, so I sometimes forget about how the rest of the world see things....

yeah, me too, i get surprised what a freak i really am. once i became a parent i really lost any ability to ever fit in anywhere mainstream. it freaks me out sometimes because i used to be able to fake it. now i can't even breath when i see all the babies crying in baby seats and the punitive, slapping hands parenting.

in fact i seem to be somewhat radical even in crunchy places, so i can't even measure what a freak i must be!!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams*
yeah, me too, i get surprised what a freak i really am. once i became a parent i really lost any ability to ever fit in anywhere mainstream. it freaks me out sometimes because i used to be able to fake it. now i can't even breath when i see all the babies crying in baby seats and the punitive, slapping hands parenting.

in fact i seem to be somewhat radical even in crunchy places, so i can't even measure what a freak i must be!!

I'm right there with ya. And the shaming!! I can't stand it! It's everywhere.

A (very rare) trip to Babies R Us is something I have to really psych myself up for... But it's the times I'm not at all prepared to witness, shall we say, unfortunte parenting practices, that really get under my skin.


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