# "You let him do WHAT?? That's HORRIBLE!" UPDATE & answers, #101



## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

A little bit of background info:

I am of the mind-set that taking care of things when you are not emotionally overwrought is a good thing. Anything you can pre-plan, you should do it.

My Dad died last November. He was buried, per his instructions, without embalming or funeral (we don't "do" funerals in my family. I had to take care of purchasing the casket, handling paperwork, dealing with the coroner (Dad died in his home, alone) and all the rest. We'd already purchased multiple plots several years ago (when mil died), so that part was already taken care of. I don't want to have to do all that regarding Mom, when that time comes.

Over the past year, we have discussed, with ds (age 10) death and what various cultures and people choose to do regarding the body and activities involved. I've explained about burial, cremation and such. Ds thinks cremation is a much better idea and has no problems with the idea.

I explained to him that my Mom, when her time comes, desires to be cremated and then buried in Dad's plot. He asked about the container for the ashes. I told him about the different types and we looked them up on the internet. He found it fascinating and asked if he could choose the container for Mom's ashes (she is his favorite relative and grandparent). I told him that would be lovely and that I thought it was pretty cool that he wanted to be a part of the decision making process.

So, ds and I went to the funeral home the other day to choose the urn he'd chose on the internet (this funeral home carries that urn). It's very pretty, a gorgeous blue cloisonne. It comes with a little "keepsake" urn that ds wants to keep for himself (with some of Mom's ashes, when that time comes). I paid for the services that will be needed someday and everything is done. When Mom dies, I won't have to deal with writing checks and handling paperwork when I am deep in sadness. One less burden to deal with (I'll have enough dealing with my no-good siblings!







)

As we were leaving the building, carrying the (empty) urn in a box, we met an aquaintance that has been out of town for several months. She said hi and asked what was in the box (and, at the same time - horrified look on her face - realizing we were in front of - and, just exiting - the funeral home).

Ds, smiling, answered, "Oh, we just bought the urn my Grandmother's ashes will go in when she dies. I got to choose which one and even have a special little one that I can keep!" He said the last bit with great pride.

That's when she said, in an anything but pleasant tone, "You let him do WHAT?? That's HORRIBLE! What kind of parent does that?!"

((Hmmm, I guess the kind that I am!))

I smiled and started to explain, politely, that there was no reason he couldn't choose it and that.....

She cut me off, shaking her head, and saying she had to get going. I said, "Well, good to have you back in town. Call us when you're settled so we can get together for lunch and hear about your travels."

She turned, as she was getting in her car and said, "I don't think so."

Ds looked at me and asked, "What is HER problem?!"

We had a good chuckle about it on the drive home and dh shook his head when we told him about it over dinner.

Mom's urn, in its sturdy cardboard box, now sits in the garage, awaiting the day.

*We* don't think there is anything wrong with discussing and including ds in discussions of death-related issues. He has helped design my Dad's headstone (very cool), came up with the idea for my Mom's headstone (again, unique) and loves to visit the cemetary where we will all end up, someday. We are not morbid people, just practical!


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

I don't see anything wrong with what you and your son did.. In fact, I think it's very sweet and mature









How do you 'ham' a bad parent though? :nana (nevermind...







)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

A lot of people are really uncomfortable with death (and I'll admit that I tend to pretend to myself that mom is immortal). I can kind of understand why she'd find the idea that a 10 year old was involved with the process a bit strange. But, to take it to the point of blowing you off on lunch over this is just bizarre.

I don't know that I'd do what you did with your ds (I'm not even likely to pick out an urn ahead of time in the first place), but I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## fromtheheart (Jun 16, 2008)

Just practical and honest! Sounds fine to me!


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

I think it probably caught her off guard - it's just not how most people deal with death. Most of us pretend it's not going to happen!


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## henny penny (Mar 26, 2008)

Your aquaintance was horribly rude to say that in front of your ds. I'm glad you and ds could laugh it off.
If your ds has recently gone through the death of your father then it is a familiar concept to him and I don't see what the big deal is acting proactively and tenderly about other future family deaths.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Honesty is the best policy in this case! I think that as long as your son is mature enough to handle such discussions (obviously he is) then there's no problem.

Granted, I can see how she'd be a bit weirded out (I'll admit, I am a little bit...) but I don't understand not going to lunch because of it. Is she afraid you'll bring the urn with you?


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Uh, yeah to all that....what everyone else already said!

People "do" different things with death.
Wow. That's kind of rude of her.









Apparently I'm in the "bad parent" club with you!








My son and I talk about what kind of headstone we'd like frequently.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Death is a part of life. It sounds like she is in denial and thinks everyone else should be as well. I think you're a fantastic parent for being so open and honest with your child, and for allowing him to assist in the preparations for his grandmother's inevitable death. We also talk openly about death in my house. It beats the denial, silence, and lies that I grew up with.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I am angry on your behalf that the process of making arrangements has been tainted by this woman. That when you look at the urn you will remember this awful woman. (Well, maybe you will... I hope not!!).


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
Ds looked at me and asked, "What is HER problem?!"











Her problem is that she is likely afraid of death and let's that fear form all her thoughts around the subject.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

i think what you did for your son is awesome and very healthy.

my dad died somewhat unexpectedly 3 mos ago and i asked my 7yo ds if he wanted to touch g'pa, as it was his first experience with death. he chose not to, and that was fine.

on the lighter side, we spent quite some time in the showroom of the funeral home picking out urns, and i guess i sort of horrified the funeral director when i asked him if he had anything shaped like a flask. tee, hee...in the end we went with a black plastic box and a keepsake urn. the bulk of the ashes will be spread on a mountain near his hometown in western PA, and the little urn is what we will keep.


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## ZoraP (Jun 11, 2009)

Kudos to you for your approach and for what is obviously a loving and comfortable relationship with your son. It's actually wonderfully comforting to have these things worked out in advance and to know that what you're doing has the blessing and approval of the one who will be departing someday. When the sad day comes, you will have the time you need to grieve instead of deal with those other things.

I just feel sorry for your acquaintance and her "issues."


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
Ds looked at me and asked, "What is HER problem?!"
















It sounds like you are a wonderful parent and your son is very mature and confident. It sounds like your acquaintance wasn't quite so lucky.


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## glitterdaisymom (Jul 7, 2008)

I think you have a really healthy outlook on death and it's great that you're passing that along to your DS.

A lot of people (my husband and his parents included) fear death and try to avoid talking or even thinking about it. My MIL becomes visibly upset for days whenever she has the realization that death is inevitable. Then she goes out and spends a bunch of money and everything is fine again... for a while.

I'm like you... I'd like to prepare in advance as much as I can before the actual event (death). I'm in the process of preparing my own "funeral plans" down to the type of flowers and program and songs I'd like. It will all be in a box that my husband or other family member will just have to follow through with. Then they don't have to think about making decisions like that while greiving. I think it's one of the most loving things I could do for them... so they can just focus on the greiving process.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

I don't think you did anything horrible. While my DC are really too young to understand a whole lot, I think about that sometimes. I want my headstone to say "I knew that was going to happen."


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I personally wouldn't have purchased the urn when its intended occupant is still breathing, but other than that (which is a personal preference) I don't think you did anything wrong.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Our family is kinda like yours, so I totally understand. We aren't at all weirded out by death. But, the stress that goes with it is horrible. I don't look forward to dealing with my Mom's estate when the time comes.


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## gillibean (Nov 28, 2006)

Is it really bad that I think the whole situation with that lady is hilarious.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bmcneal* 
I don't think you did anything horrible. While my DC are really too young to understand a whole lot, I think about that sometimes. I want my headstone to say "I knew that was going to happen."









I think I found my new headstone epitaph. That or "I told you so."


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gillibean* 
Is it really bad that I think the whole situation with that lady is hilarious.









You've got me as company!


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

OP, sorry to resort to psychobabble here, but that encounter had _everything_ to do with her personal views (fears!) of death and very little to do with your parenting. I think she was just projecting her own discomfort with a taboo topic...


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

I thought about this a little more, and I really like the idea of figuring out your funeral ahead of time. I may start looking at gravesite, headstones, alternative options. I already decided after the last funeral I was at that I would be cremated. No if, ands or buts. I realize people want to say their good-byes, but OMG! Say it to a nice framed photo of me looking my very best!

So no viewing, no coffin.

I've been to a few funerals in my life, all close relatives (Dad, grandparents, mother-in-law, favorite aunt). I just don't see them as morbid as some do. Some people are so uptight. I think its quite touching that your son is involved as he is. He's giving and has been given a very special gift.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

I don't knwo, I think it is kind of weird to be picking out LIVE grandma's urn unless it was WITH her. I mean, really, what do you do, call grandma up and say, hey grandma, I just bought you a really cool gift, picked it out myself, oh, yup, it's an URN for your ashes when you die.

Our family is not strange about death, we aren't AFRAID of death, we all realize that DEATH comes at the end of life, but at the same time, we aren't going on shopping trips for urns as a fun afternoon activity. I agree that her response was a bit strong, but really, it does seem to be a bit, umm, odd, to be doing it without your mom, who I am guessing is not knocking death's door. I'm sure she was quite shocked by the outing.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
I don't knwo, I think it is kind of weird to be picking out LIVE grandma's urn unless it was WITH her. I mean, really, what do you do, call grandma up and say, hey grandma, I just bought you a really cool gift, picked it out myself, oh, yup, it's an URN for your ashes when you die.

.


OK.. now that I think about that. I might be a little hurt if my grandson told me "Hey... wanna see the urn we bought you for when you die?" I'd be wondering why my daughter didn't just buy me a nice picture frame or something less dooming. But, other than THAT, I think it's a great idea.

Sorry your friend thinks you are the creepy mom. She's probably already blocked you on facebook.


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## Murph12334 (Nov 12, 2003)

i think the lady is the wierd one.

it's nice that you are able to talk with your son and make death less of a scarey thing for him than it is for most people in the world.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
I don't knwo, I think it is kind of weird to be picking out LIVE grandma's urn unless it was WITH her. I mean, really, what do you do, call grandma up and say, hey grandma, I just bought you a really cool gift, picked it out myself, oh, yup, it's an URN for your ashes when you die.


Yeah, this is the only negative reaction I had to your post. I would probably have told my DD, "Yes, I am sure Nana would be very happy to know that you would pick out the urn after she dies," or something like that.

Otherwise, I think it's great that you're talking to your son about these things.


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

Don't worry, my Mom will never know we've already purchased the urn! I'd never be that tacky (and neither would ds).

She is a stroke survivor, but we feel she has had another, small one, recently. She is more "out there" than she has been. Her short-term memory is about 2 minutes, at best. Though we would never show her the urn, if she ever saw it, she'd forget about it within minutes.

Ds wanted to get the urn he liked NOW, as he was concerned they might discontinue that style. It is of importance to him, so we figured, why not now?!

Glad everyone thought it was a funny encounter!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henny penny* 
Your aquaintance was horribly rude to say that in front of your ds.

i disagree. her reaction was v. plausible.

i mean lets imagine OP had posted just this part.

Ds, smiling, answered, "Oh, we just bought the urn my Grandmother's ashes will go in when she dies. I got to choose which one and even have a special little one that I can keep!" He said the last bit with great pride.

doesnt that by itself sound horrible? without an explanation that we ourselves were given before this information.

OP perhaps those were not the exact words but perhaps the sentiment was the same. now if you had given a little back ground perhaps the acquaintance might have had a chance to react differently.

its one thing to be open about death. its a whole different story to be buying an urn for a living person.

OP please note i am not criticising you or anything.

i am just trying to say why i find her reaction perfectly normal. i wonder if she interpreted that as you guys cant wait for mother to die, or you dont care - you just want to get it over with.

i am so glad that you have such a wonderful openess around death. it is a v. shocking concept in our culture. and many people in their 50's have never seen a dead body. it is a hush, hush subject and no one really ever talks about it.

of course she should not have been so rude in front of your son. but i can totally understand why she was.

i hope one day you can clear this up for her. i am sure there is a misunderstanding here.

i absolutely did not find this encounter funny. sad perhaps. miscommunication. but definitely not funny.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

I think what you are doing by teaching your ds about how to handle death as a normal part of life and not something to be scared of or keep hushed is great! I wish someone wolud've done that for me- as an adult I don't deal w/death well- I'm the avoidant type (don't even know how to act towards others that have lost someone). And am now having a hard time teaching/talking about it w/my dc. You are insipiring to me!


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

I also have a small urn of my Grandmother's ashes. It is very special to me. I'm glad you allowed him to help in the process.

As for your "friend" ... some people have no tact.


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## MommyKelly (Jun 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys* 
on the lighter side, we spent quite some time in the showroom of the funeral home picking out urns, and i guess i sort of horrified the funeral director when i asked him if he had anything shaped like a flask.


This made me LOL. I lost my Mom suddenly 4 years ago, and my dd asked the funeral director if they had any keepsakes that didnt look like salt and pepper shakers.

People deal with death differently. I was raised that everyone dies. Its just the way it is. And it is only bad for the people left on earth because they are grieving for them. I think you teaching your son to have such a healthy outlook on it is wonderful. And I dont think purchasing anything before hand is morbid. I was really happy my Mom had picked out her "wall space". It would have been great if she had an urn picked out. The less to think about while grieving the better.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

10 years ago I went on an overseas Habitat for Humanity build, an all-women's build. One of the women was 82, if memory serves. She was amazing. Can you imagine, 82 and tromping over the world with hammer in hand? In fact, she had signed up for a second build in the same continent right after the first, and while the rest of us went home, exhausted after 3 weeks, she took a flight to the next country!

Anyway, while she was on the build with us she saw a container she loved. It wasn't meant to be an urn but it served the purpose. She bought it and had it shipped back to her home for her ashes when she dies.

Some people were a little horrified when she showed them, and I admit I had about 2 seconds of unexpressed discomfort. She seemed to be a little taken aback about people's reactions, but fortunately most people adjusted and admired the urn. No-one else was in their 80s, so she was in a different place in her life.

I can understand the woman might have been uncomfortable and shocked and so on, and she has a right to those feelings. But I just can't get over how rude she was to you. That was in no way remotely acceptable. Even if she felt like she didn't want to have a relationship with you as a result of the encounter, she should have just ignored your (later) calls or whatever, instead of saying those rude things.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I like your approach; I think it's healthy and it appears to me that your son is mature enough for it. I'm trying to take a practical approach with our children to things like birth, breastfeeding and death that seem to be so taboo in our society. I want them to understand and not be scared. That woman was rude and let her own feelings get in the way.


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## Cavy (Aug 21, 2009)

DH has done something much more shocking than you, OP.

He took DS 5yo) to see a dead body.
Actually, he took DD7 AND DS5 AND DS9yo to see their dead grandfather.

DH's father was dying in hospital for a week, and DH travelled down several times to see his dad, including once with DS5. Dh was not at all close to his dad, but I think he's a well-brought up person, he couldn't not do the proper thing and go to pay his respects.

The day after his father died, DH went to see the body, and took the 3 children with him. I really don't know why DH felt compelled to go, or felt comfortable taking the DC, it all struck me as strange, too. But DC were not in the least upset about the dead body, just commented to me when they got home how cold the body was (and how his mouth was hanging open).


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
Don't worry, my Mom will never know we've already purchased the urn! I'd never be that tacky (and neither would ds).

She is a stroke survivor, but we feel she has had another, small one, recently. She is more "out there" than she has been. Her short-term memory is about 2 minutes, at best. Though we would never show her the urn, if she ever saw it, she'd forget about it within minutes.

Ds wanted to get the urn he liked NOW, as he was concerned they might discontinue that style. It is of importance to him, so we figured, why not now?!

Glad everyone thought it was a funny encounter!

This changes my first though, which was, "Why didn't your mother have any say about the urn her ashes would be placed in?" I see now that she is an invalid and cannot participate in the process.

As long as your ds is able to comprehend the dignity and seriousness of death and that it's not at all related to an interesting shopping trip for an odd object, then I think it's fine. I wouldn't want my own dd to be flippant about something so serious. My brother died when I was 12 and even then I had a hard time with comprehending the gravity of the situation. I even composed the poem that went on his headstone, but it was somewhat surreal and it was only as an older teenager that I really understood.

That being said, if I were the friend, I could see being caught unawares and be a little befuddled, bumbling around with what to say. I don't see it as "funny", but just uncomfortable.


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## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

I think that if the woman had read the original post on this thread or if the OP had been able to discuss in more detail the reasons behind why they were at the funeral home, then she might not have freaked out to that extreme. If it were me and all I witnessed was a mother and her son walking out of a funeral home and the son saying that they were there buying an urn for his grandmother who's not even dead yet, I would be seriously weirded out. I would probably ask more questions, but I'm open-minded like that. To the average person, witnessing something like this might make them wonder if this is what your family does for fun. You know, some families go to the mall, others go out for ice cream, your family goes to a funeral home to buy an urn for a living relative


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cavy* 
The day after his father died, DH went to see the body, and took the 3 children with him. I really don't know why DH felt compelled to go, or felt comfortable taking the DC, it all struck me as strange, too. But DC were not in the least upset about the dead body, just commented to me when they got home how cold the body was (and how his mouth was hanging open).

you know i think we underestimate what our children can handle about death. my dd is incredibly lucky. she saw her first dead body at 3. she asked to go and see when our neighbour passed away. she said wow mom she looks like she is sleeping. then from age 4 to 5 she took an active role in helping both her gparents die. she helped in taking care of them as they got weaker and weaker. as they passed she held their hands. immediately after the death as we got involved with paperwork adn phonecalls she sat next to her gparents crying silently and reading them books. she joined me in washing them and putting clothes on them. she made them goodbye cards that their spirit could read and gathered flowers to put on their body bag.

her dad saw his first dead body - my dad when he was in his late 30s. he was so lost about everything. at 5 my dd much better than how her dad fared.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zenful* 
You know, some families go to the mall, others go out for ice cream, your family goes to a funeral home to buy an urn for a living relative

















: that's exactly what i thought too!!!!!


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## Traceround (Jul 10, 2009)

I think your son has a pretty healthy view of death. Too many in our society see death as something almost shameful that we must hush up about and get over as soon as possible.

That said, taken out of context what your son said can be seen as somewhat startling. But I think the problem lies more with your friends own personal demons than anything inately wrong with buying an urn prior to death.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Hm...

First of all, I have no problems with young children being present at the funeral or seeing dead loved ones, saying good bye, choosing an urn, discussing headstones, etc. etc. etc.

Second of all, I have no problem with planning ahead. We had a few discussions on how we want to be buried over here, including DSD.

Thirdly, I don't think there is an excuse for rudeness. I definitely think your friend should have behaved better than that, especially in the presence of a 10 y.o. child.

*However...* I DO find it unusual to buy an urn for a living relative without that relative's involvement (be it with your son or without). The whole things just doesn't sit well with me. If the point is to be accepting of death and open about it, then I think you HAVE to involve the person whose death you are discussing. IF you have a reason good enough not to discuss it with that person, then you should wait until they are dead to buy something like that. Sorry! I don't think it's cool and wonderful in this particular case. Without your grandmother having a part in this shopping trip, it doesn't seem all that great. Not something I would want my kids to do behind my back "for when the time comes". I'd appreciate them asking my opinion or actually waiting for me die first.

Just my 2 cents.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

The lady's reaction, while inappropriate, was also very honest. For most folks, the idea of a grandchild picking out an urn for a living grandparent would evoke a strong response. That was her "problem", for which, your son, also a deserves an explanation instead of a chuckle.

What I find striking in your post, is the emphasis on the items associated with person's passing, words like "cool" etc. The natural way of processing the death of a loved one comes in stages. In many cultures, items associated with death are part of the rituals after the passing, a stage that enables the human mind to process the loss. I feel, unless one has had the experiential knowledge of dealing with death of a loved one, bypassing it to go to the next stage does not allow for the depth and dignity, that something as complex as death is deserving of.

Just my opinion.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you have a really practical outlook on death. She may have just experienced a death though and that non-chalant attitude may have triggered a lot of grief that she is still trying to deal with. I don't think your attitude towards death is wrong, but for many people the thought of their loved one passing away is very hard, especially if it just happened. I would also be very suspicious if someone was out planning for a loved ones eventual death. My family does that for themselves but we don't do it for each other and we get suspicious about people buying life insurance on each other. This lady may think you are planning to off your mom and you have your son in on the whole thing and she may not want anything to do with any of you for that reason.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Your aquaintance sounds like a very shallow individual. What you did and the way you handled it was incredible...thank you for setting a great example to your son.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
I don't know, I think it is kind of weird to be picking out LIVE grandma's urn unless it was WITH her. I mean, really, what do you do, call grandma up and say, hey grandma, I just bought you a really cool gift, picked it out myself, oh, yup, it's an URN for your ashes when you die.


I thought it was strange that Grandma wasn't involved in shopping for the urn. After all, she's the one going in it.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with your son, or you. And the lady's reaction is what it is. You probably won't change her mind, so don't worry about it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your son picking out the urn. For some people, knowing death is coming, and knowing that the details are taken care of is comforting. In this case, your mom did not buy an urn in advance, she can't participate in choosing where her remains go after the cremation due to her previous strokes, and it MEANS something to your son. He wants her remains to have a lovely urn to rest in. And he found one that resonated with him. So he bought it. And now the details are taken care of, and when his grandmother passes, you and he won't have to worry about trying to make these decisions in the midst of mourning. (Which totally sucks, BTW. I grew up in my grandparent's household, and when my grandfather passed away in his sleep, at a young age, we were left scrambling, trying to deal with shock, grief, and all of the details of his death. It was a horrible time for us.)

Honestly, a lot of death rituals are about the survivors. The dead really won't care.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Honestly, a lot of death rituals are about the survivors. The dead really won't care.









Absolutely.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

So, is your mom is a nursing home, or hospital, and not able to participate in this? Does she live alone, and take care for her own everyday needs? Is her death imminent, or does is she just having memory problems.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 







Absolutely.

you know, this is really true. But it doesn't really apply if it is someone who is alive and well, unless they are involved.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
you know, this is really true. But it doesn't really apply if it is someone who is alive and well, unless they are involved.

I guess it depends on the family.
I've made it very clear to my husband that what happens upon my death is his business. While I would prefer to be cremated, I won't actually care once I'm dead. Where my remains go will make no difference to me. Whether there's any kind of ceremony, and what takes place during it won't matter to me. It will be all about what he and our children want, what will help them through their grief. If he wanted to buy an urn or burial plot or whatever for me right now, without my input, I wouldn't care - as long as the money wasn't needed for something more important right now.

The OP has made it clear that, due to her mother's condition, buying the urn isn't an issue. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
I personally wouldn't have purchased the urn when its intended occupant is still breathing, but other than that (which is a personal preference) I don't think you did anything wrong.









:
Plus, the lady was clearly freaked out about a child being involved not about buying the urn in and of itself.

I give it 20 days before you find out the acq. has been telling people your son predicted your mother's death. She'll change the story like that because no one else will freak out enough over the real story.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I guess it depends on the family.
I've made it very clear to my husband that what happens upon my death is his business. While I would prefer to be cremated, I won't actually care once I'm dead. Where my remains go will make no difference to me. Whether there's any kind of ceremony, and what takes place during it won't matter to me. It will be all about what he and our children want, what will help them through their grief. If he wanted to buy an urn or burial plot or whatever for me right now, without my input, I wouldn't care - as long as the money wasn't needed for something more important right now.

The OP has made it clear that, due to her mother's condition, buying the urn isn't an issue. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I thought that what you did was very sweet and touching.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if someone already said this, but if she was on her way into a funeral parlor she's probably very recently experienced a loss of someone close. This might be about her grief process and not about you, and I'd cut her some slack.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i mean lets imagine OP had posted just this part.

Ds, smiling, answered, "Oh, we just bought the urn my Grandmother's ashes will go in when she dies. I got to choose which one and even have a special little one that I can keep!" He said the last bit with great pride.

doesnt that by itself sound horrible?

Er.... no, it doesn't sound at all horrible to me.









What part is horrible?


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## Kismet_fw (Aug 7, 2009)

Brilliant.

This is wonderful. Children often have death related questions they don't want to ask for fear of sounding immature or childish, or a fascination with death and burial/disposal because they don't know and no one will tell them! Better to find out in a somewhat positive way now, and know that it's ok to plan ahead, leaving your (or your survivors') minds and hearts free for the grieving process when the time comes.

I think it's possible no one ever had such a positive time with your friend when it would have done her the most good. Seriously, most of western society is thoroughly ignorant and very fearful about death, and would love to share both!


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
Ds looked at me and asked, "What is HER problem?!"


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

To plan one's own funeral ahead of time is a kind and thoughtful gesture, as is helping a friend or relative make those plans if they ask for your help. To people of a certain philosophical bent, however (obviously, a bent you don't personally share), making funeral plans for a living person who has not requested the assistance is essentially the same as wishing their death. And I'm afraid your son's enthusiasm over the purchase of an urn didn't help.

Given his difficulty in understanding your friend's reaction, I think your faith in your son's tact might be a greater than evidence warrants. I'm sure he's perfectly tactful under ordinary circumstances but it sounds like, while he understands that death is an inevitable natural process, he hasn't yet developed empathy for other people's feelings about it. You should definitely talk to him about how this will be approached with his Grandmother and other relatives.

I think there's also a decent chance that while you've taken care of this little end-of-life chore, diplomatically presenting the results to your relatives may be more of a chore than you seem to be anticipating. People are funny about death. People who would have unquestioningly accepted your mother's choice, and possibly even your choice if they felt it was made in the moment, may suddenly find themselves offended when they learn that the choice was made by a child well in advance of your mother's passing.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I think it's kind of funny that people think the grandmother should be involved in picking out the urn for her ashes. Frankly, my kids can pick whatever urn they like--I REALLY would rather not be a part of that process.

When I was a kid, my mom used to tell each of her kids which piece of jewelry we could have when she died. So we'd go around cheerfully talking about it, but assuring her she wouldn't die for a long time. She seemed to think she was going to die really soon, though. She said we were always trying to kill her off and wouldn't be happy until she was dead, and that if she did die, not to waste money on a burial--just call the trashmen to come haul away the body. I told her I didn't think that was legal.







My mom's not much for home decor items, but if she were, I bet this is an argument we could get into.

"Look Mom, I picked out the urn for your ashes. You said you wanted to be cremated!"
"Why does it have a picture of two dogs having sex?"
"Well, I figured that was really distinctive and in your face, and I'd remember you with fondness every time I saw it."
"You got it on clearance, didn't you."
"Awww, see Mom, you really instilled those thrifty values in me, aren't you proud?"
"No, absolutely not, take it back, I wouldn't be caught dead in that thing!"


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
I think it's kind of funny that people think the grandmother should be involved in picking out the urn for her ashes. Frankly, my kids can pick whatever urn they like--I REALLY would rather not be a part of that process.

It's not so much that she SHOULD be involved, it's that -- while it's true that posthumous arrangements mean a lot more to the living than the deceased -- _prior_ to death they do have a habit of being deeply important to the one for whom plans are being made. And there has been no indication that the grandmother, in the case, has herself said, "it's no big! Do whatever you like, whenever you like." If you're happy with your kids making funeral arrangements for you without your input or consent, awesome. I'm guessing most people would not be so comfortable however.

I also find it rather disturbing that it was more or less indicated that because the grandmother's ability to _remember_ finding something troubling or hurtful has been damaged, it doesn't matter.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
"No, absolutely not, take it back, I wouldn't be caught dead in that thing!"


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## MammaG (Apr 9, 2009)

I think you did a great job preparing you and your DS for an event that will be sad and stressful. Planning ahead, as you said, will allow you to grieve without the burden of attending to details that could easily have been done beforehand, as you so aptly did.

OP, I don't see why people are speculating about Grandma's input. Clearly this is normal for your family and the issue isn't YOUR actions, but this woman's very rude and strange reaction, not to mention the absolutley inappropriate display she put on in front of your son. Surely folks may get wierded out about death, but they also surely ought to be polite to those who do it differently. (Just to illustrate the point, imagine the flak I'd get if I saw someone feeding a baby a bottle and came right out and said "_HOW_ could you do that to your baby, you awful mother?????". Ok to think somewhere waaaaay on the inside, NOT Ok to verbalize.....there's no way I could ever place myself in another's shoes and fully understand her choices....I could be so wrong, and I'd only serve to make bad feelings. Same thing here.....she may have been upset, but had a duty to conceal that in the interest of common courtesy.)

My mother hasn't really said what she wants besides cremation and a specific hymn at her funeral. I figure at this point, the rest is up to me and I'll plan it the way it makes the most sense for those of us who are left to deal with it. Same with DH if he goes first....his family discusses NOTHING of bigger import than the weather, and I used to be annoyed by this and push him for details 'just in case', but now I see it as less of a burden on me.....I'll just go ahead and do my thing without a laundry-list of wishes from a guest-of-honour who really, really couldn't care less at that point.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

I think i would be Ok with it if you had bought the urn for yourself or for your DS's ashes for when the day comes, but not for an unsuspecting grandma.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I'm with those who say this is strange because Grandma has no input.
I would have thought it was kind of nice if you, your DS and Grandma had gone together. And I love the story of the older woman picking out her own urn--doesn't disturb me at all--but this seems vaguely intrusive/weird. Personally, I could totally see going to pick out my urn, but I wouldn't want my family doing it without me, and I imagine I would probably want to be in a certain place regarding my own death before I went (I'm not there yet!)


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bmcneal* 
I want my headstone to say "I knew that was going to happen."


















Quote:

"No, absolutely not, take it back, I wouldn't be caught dead in that thing!" ...by viola


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I'm with those who say this is strange because Grandma has no input.
*I would have thought it was kind of nice if you, your DS and Grandma had gone together.* And I love the story of the older woman picking out her own urn--doesn't disturb me at all--but this seems vaguely intrusive/weird. Personally, I could totally see going to pick out my urn, but I wouldn't want my family doing it without me, and I imagine I would probably want to be in a certain place regarding my own death before I went (I'm not there yet!)

I don't think you read the whole thread...twice now it has been mentioned that grandma has had some strokes and is not mentally or physically able to be out and about urn shopping...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I sort of agree with those who think it was understandable that the acquaintance responded the way she did. Sure, she was rude about it, but I can see why it might have upset her.

About seven years ago, my ex's uncle died suddenly. He was young, healthy, and active, so it was even more horrific. Anyway, he was cremated, and his wife and kids intended to scatter his ashes in their backyard. After the service, they asked everyone to grab handfuls of the ashes and scatter them about. I was kind of grossed out by this, to be honest, and I'm not a squeamish person by nature. But I bit my tongue and did it.

My SIL's kids, who were really too little to understand what was going on, were grabbing handfuls of ashes and throwing them everywhere like it was a game. Several of the older people were upset and offended by this...not blaming the kids, but just bothered by the whole situation. Everyone handles death differently.

ETA: Most of the people in my family are not sentimental about death. To us, an urn is just a container...so nobody would care whether it was picked out beforehand or what it looked like. I'd be happy with a cardboard box or a Ziploc. Once again, people have different ideas about death. The idea of someone revering my ashes on a mantelpiece is sort of repulsive to me.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I can understand your friend being weirded out because of whatever issues she has about death, but her reaction was rude and inappropriate. I think she owes you an apology, but I wouldn't EXPECT one and would continue to be friendly to her when you get the chance.

However, I think it would have been wise to explain to your son that "her problem" is a horror of the whole concept of death, which is very common in our society and is something we need to respect in others. On that note, instead of trying to explain to your friend "that there was no reason he couldn't choose it," I think it would have been more helpful to explain that making arrangements for your dad at the time of his death was distressing, so you'd decided to choose your mom's urn in advance because it would be so upsetting if after she passed you learned that the perfect urn was no longer available. She might still not have listened to you, but at least you wouldn't have sounded like you were arguing and might have triggered some sympathy regarding your dad.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I would probably try calling the woman in a few days and explaining. No, you don't owe it to her, but it may help smooth over the situation and could be helpful to her. If she was going into the funeral home, isn't it likely she was dealing with a loss (especially if she was recently back in town after a long absence - maybe that's why she's back?)? I don't think laughing about it with your son is useful in helping him understand how various cultures process death (which you said you did). For many people in the US, death is serious and taboo, and that's as worthy of discussion as any ancient burial rites.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappilyEvrAfter* 
My son and I talk about what kind of headstone we'd like frequently.

I have also told my dp and my sister - and possibly mentioned to my kids when we were at the cemetery visiting my parents' graves - that I want the same shape headstone that my parents have. I recently discovered a song that I'd like played at my funeral - and told both my dp and my sister. I see nothing wrong with it. But it is MY wishes about MY funeral. I think that is the difference.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
I personally wouldn't have purchased the urn when its intended occupant is still breathing.

This.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
I think it is kind of weird to be picking out LIVE grandma's urn unless it was WITH her. I mean, really, what do you do, call grandma up and say, hey grandma, I just bought you a really cool gift, picked it out myself, oh, yup, it's an URN for your ashes when you die.

Our family is not strange about death, we aren't AFRAID of death, we all realize that DEATH comes at the end of life, but at the same time, we aren't going on shopping trips for urns.

I agree. It seems disrespectful to be excited about buying an urn for a living person.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
its one thing to be open about death. its a whole different story to be buying an urn for a living person. i find her reaction perfectly normal. i wonder if she interpreted that as you guys cant wait for mother to die, or you dont care - you just want to get it over with.
of course she should not have been so rude in front of your son. but i can totally understand why she was.

i absolutely did not find this encounter funny. sad perhaps. miscommunication. but definitely not funny.

Same here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I DO find it unusual to buy an urn for a living relative without that relative's involvement (be it with your son or without). The whole things just doesn't sit well with me. If the point is to be accepting of death and open about it, then I think you HAVE to involve the person whose death you are discussing. IF you have a reason good enough not to discuss it with that person, then you should wait until they are dead to buy something like that. Sorry! I don't think it's cool and wonderful in this particular case. Without your grandmother having a part in this shopping trip, it doesn't seem all that great. Not something I would want my kids to do behind my back "for when the time comes". I'd appreciate them asking my opinion or actually waiting for me die first.

Thank you! The whole thing would have been ok if it had been directed by gramma. Without her input (which I understand isn't readily available due to the strokes), it is... well, wrong IMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
I give it 20 days before you find out the acq. has been telling people your son predicted your mother's death. She'll change the story like that because no one else will freak out enough over the real story.

I disagree. I think the actual story is enough to freak many people out. I think so, and I have taken my kids to my parents' graves since they were babies. We have pictures of them standing next to the headstones.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TropicalGirl* 
I think i would be Ok with it if you had bought then urn for yourself or for your DS's ashes when the day comes, but not for an unsuspecting grandma.

Exactly. Someone who had either ASKED you to do this or was involved in doing it.

My uncle went to the funeral home to make arrangements for his mother, my gramma - before she was dead. She was a day or two away. To me, it was SO disrespectful! Spend that time with her - there is only a bit of time you have left. The high majority of people don't pre-plan their funerals. The entire industry works on having a week or less notice from death to service.

Off the OP's topic but related - Costco sells coffins. True. And if you have room to store it, and if you are buying it for YOURSELF, I think it is fine.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

There does seem to be an impression that discomfort with the scenario involved = discomfort with funeral planning, with death, etc. And I'm really not sure where anyone who has that impression is getting it from. It's kind of like this: my mom once asked my grandmother if she could have a particular piece of my grandmother's furniture after she passed. And my grandmother was seriously affronted. Now, my grandmother was not at all the type of person who preferred to pretend death doesn't happen or that it's the subject that shall not be named. But she _was_ offended by the impression that someone was just waiting for her to die to snag her end tables. And I can definitely see how handling funeral planning about the same as one would handle planning a surprise party -- particularly for someone who has suffered a dehabilitating medical condition -- _could_ give the same impression.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm kind of surprised at the number of comments about "unsuspecting grandma" and grandma's lack of input. Grandma's husband has died. She's obviously not a young, healthy woman (yes - any of us could die at any moment, but it's very common for young people to overlook that). If she hasn't chosen to make these arrangements on her own, why do people assume she even cares? Honestly, if I were going to cremated, and had any concerns about what kind or urn my ashes would go into, I'd have made that clear to my family already. If it were a huge deal, I'd have already bought the urn.

I'd have no problem whatsoever with ds1 or my grandchildren (I hope to have lots) making their plans for my funeral. I'm going to be dead. They're going to be grieving. I remember what it felt like to sit in the funeral home and pick out an urn for Aaron, crying my heart out in front of a stranger, when I wanted to be at home on my couch. If my children/grandchildren choose to avoid that part of the process for themselves, more power to them. I don't care what the urn looks like, because I'm not going to be looking at it.

That said, I think I want a green burial, anyway. Embalming kind of creeps me out, and I've heard bad things about the level of air pollution from crematoriums.

ETA: I also agree with those that said that the OP's acquaintance did seem to be more upset about the fact that a child was involved than with the fact that the urn was picked out ahead of time.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I don't think you read the whole thread...twice now it has been mentioned that grandma has had some strokes and is not mentally or physically able to be out and about urn shopping...
I did read the whole thread, actually, but I didn't write my reply clearly. IF Grandma were capbale and interested, I think going together would be sort of cool, but since she isn't, I do find it a little strange.

Here's what I think: if someone is horrified by the very idea of a person discussing preferences for what happens after their death, that person, yes, is maybe a little uncomfortable with death and freaked out by the taboos. But if someone is disturbed by someone else preplanning the aesthetic details for the death of a relative who is still alive, that person may instead just find that sort of cold or detached or odd.

I do agree that her reaction was rude, though.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

The thing about the unsuspecting grandma is that it appears the OP used her future death as a cool project to teach her son about death and stuff, If the kid liked the urn so much he should have bought it for himself, after all we all die and maybe grandma will outlive them all.

Personally I couldn't care less what they do with my remains, they can flush me down the toilet for all I care, but if someone was buying an urn form me while I am alive and kicking I don't think i would like it, no matter how much my relative loved me. And the fact that grandma is not completely there donesn't make it any better for me.


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## texmama (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
as they passed she held their hands. immediately after the death as we got involved with paperwork adn phonecalls she sat next to her gparents crying silently and reading them books. she joined me in washing them and putting clothes on them. she made them goodbye cards that their spirit could read and gathered flowers to put on their body bag.

That is so very sweet, it brought tears to my eyes.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TropicalGirl* 
The thing about the unsuspecting grandma is that it appears the OP used her future death as a cool project to teach her son about death and stuff,

I'm curious as to what gave you that impression, because I just went back and re-read the OP, and still don't get that at all. Is it just because she used the word "cool"?

Quote:

Personally I couldn't care less what they do with my remains, they can flush me down the toilet for all I care, but if someone was buying an urn form me while I am alive and kicking I don't think i would like it, no matter how much my relative loved me. And the fact that grandma is not completely there donesn't make it any better for me.
Can you explain why? I honestly don't understand this thinking. I'd rather my relatives deal with things when they're calm than be suckered into spending a bunch of unnecessary money while in the emotionally tangled mess that is the early grieving period. I mean - I tend to assume that if anybody cares that much about what's done with their remains, they'll address that themselves. If they're leaving it to me to deal with, then I can't understand why they'd get bent about me dealing with it.

I guess I'm just not understanding the mindset here. It seems that several posters on this thread think the only appropriate way to handle death is to deal with the practical side of it while still reeling under the emotional side. I'll end up doing that, because I'm not organized enough to make arrangements for mom and dad ahead of time...but I don't see any advantage to it, for them or for me.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

Well then why just stop on getting the urn for grandma, since we could all potentially die lets get an urn for every member of the family, that way the rest of the family can avoid go urn shopping in a time of grief.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I
Can you explain why? I honestly don't understand this thinking. I'd rather my relatives deal with things when they're calm than be suckered into spending a bunch of unnecessary money while in the emotionally tangled mess that is the early grieving period. I mean - I tend to assume that if anybody cares that much about what's done with their remains, they'll address that themselves. *If they're leaving it to me to deal with, then I can't understand why they'd get bent about me dealing with it.*

I guess I'm just not understanding the mindset here. *It seems that several posters on this thread think the only appropriate way to handle death is to deal with the practical side of it while still reeling under the emotional side.* I'll end up doing that, because I'm not organized enough to make arrangements for mom and dad ahead of time...*but I don't see any advantage to it, for them or for me.*


Yeah, I agree with this, especially the bold parts.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Can you explain why? I honestly don't understand this thinking.

To be honest I don't think it's particularly relevant that you or any one individual understands _why_ so much as it is relevant that everyone understands that it is a plausible and commonplace feeling about the subject -- that personally not caring can not just be hoisted off as an expectation upon the broader population.

Quote:

It seems that several posters on this thread think the only appropriate way to handle death is to deal with the practical side of it while still reeling under the emotional side.
I don't think anyone has said advanced funeral planning is a bad idea. Rather simply that the feelings of the person for whom arrangements are being made should be the primary consideration, at minimum insofar as they are still living. In this case that the woman in question would "forget all about it two minutes later" or some such remark does not give the impression that in those two minutes she'd be nearly so tickled as those doing the planning seem to be.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TropicalGirl* 
Well then why just stop on getting the urn for grandma, since we could all potentially die lets get an urn for every member of the family, that way the rest of the family can avoid go urn shopping in a time of grief.

I'm sure some families do that!


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## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
We'd already purchased multiple plots several years ago (when mil died), so that part was already taken care of.

I think it's interesting that a lot of families buy plots in advance, but it seems to be taboo to buy the receptacle that will hold the dead body, in whatever form, ahead of time. So it's okay to buy the hole in the ground that your relative's remains will one day go in but not that which will contain the remains? Maybe I'm derailing the thread some with this, but I feel it's relevant given how offended and weirded out some people are about this. If the grandma doesn't have any issue with the plot of land with her name on it then she probably won't care about the urn, either.


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## MerriMom (Mar 26, 2009)

I don't know, I think the kid is being depicted as excited about the idea of grandma dying. I hope that's not the case. I think it's creepy and that mom is being disrespectful. She knows it too, because she insists that neither she nor her son will tell grandma about the urn. Why not, if it's such a great thing?

Both my grandmothers had strokes and one had mental impairment and memory issues as a result. She would have been heartbroken to think that we were gleefully planning her funeral. She, however, was outspoken about plans, for example what dress she wanted to be buried in. That's the big difference. Planning a funeral for someone who's alive without their input or knowledge is wrong to me.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Here is the thing... Grandma might have been:

* excited about her daughter and grandson doing this
* indifferent, due to spiritual beliefs or lack of mental capacity
* upset by the whole ordeal

I guess the problem I have, is that no one bothered to ask her how she would feel about it. That's the only thing that matters at the end, regardless of how I, or anyone else feels about buying an urn ahead of time.

Yup, it might be very tough for me to make arrangements when the time comes, but I will never make arrangements for someone I love before they passed away. I might be viewed as uptight and crazy, but that's how I was brought up (I didn't grow up in the US btw). It would have been disrespectful in my culture. I am very willing to accept alternative and to look at it from some else's point of view, BUT the participants have to be aware of it, and share the spiritual standing of the people handling their plans "for when they die".

I know a family that just lost a child to cancer, and I just cannot imagine them doing something like this behind his back, yk? I think grandma deserves no less consideration in this case.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TropicalGirl* 
Well then why just stop on getting the urn for grandma, since we could all potentially die lets get an urn for every member of the family, that way the rest of the family can avoid go urn shopping in a time of grief.

If I were going to shop ahead of time, I'd probably do exactly that. It's pretty clear from the OP that the death of the OP's dad was very difficult for her to deal with, logistically, while grieving. I can certainly understand wanting to deal with it ahead of time for her mom. I really don't see what the issue is with that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MerriMom* 
I don't know, I think the kid is being depicted as excited about the idea of grandma dying. I hope that's not the case.

I don't think it is, and I'm curious as to what gave you the impression that is is the case. There's nothing in the OP to suggest he's excited about grandma dying.

Quote:

I think it's creepy and that mom is being disrespectful. She knows it too, because she insists that neither she nor her son will tell grandma about the urn. Why not, if it's such a great thing?
Maybe she figures her mom is thinking about her own mortality a lot right now (as I think most people are when their spouse - or even ex-spouse, as I don't know if the OP's parents were still married - dies), and wouldn't appreciate the reminder?

Quote:

Both my grandmothers had strokes and one had mental impairment and memory issues as a result. She would have been heartbroken to think that we were *gleefully* planning her funeral. She, however, was outspoken about plans, for example what dress she wanted to be buried in. That's the big difference. Planning a funeral for someone who's alive without their input or knowledge is wrong to me.
I'd be heartbroken to think that anybody was "gleefully" planning my funeral, as that would imply that they were eagerly looking forward to my death. However, I didn't see anybody in this thread doing that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
To be honest I don't think it's particularly relevant that you or any one individual understands _why_ so much as it is relevant that everyone understands that it is a plausible and commonplace feeling about the subject -- that personally not caring can not just be hoisted off as an expectation upon the broader population.

Well, I'll keep it in mind in future, but it never would have occurred to me that anybody would care, prior to this thread. And, as I have no idea why anybody _would_ care, I can't see any reason that I would have guessed that they would.

Quote:

I don't think anyone has said advanced funeral planning is a bad idea. Rather simply that the feelings of the person for whom arrangements are being made should be the primary consideration, at minimum insofar as they are still living.
I can't imagine why, but it's obvious that many people agree with you. The OP's mom's wishes, to the extent that she's ever bothered to express them, are being honoured. Personally, I'd be far, far more bothered by being invited to participate in choosing my own urn than I would be if I happened to find out that my heirs had already taken care of that. My feelings (or someone else's) _might_ be hurt by such an invitation, so maybe advance planning should just not be done at all?


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't think it is, and I'm curious as to what gave you the impression that is is the case. There's nothing in the OP to suggest he's excited about grandma dying.

Maybe she figures her mom is thinking about her own mortality a lot right now (as I think most people are when their spouse - or even ex-spouse, as I don't know if the OP's parents were still married - dies), and wouldn't appreciate the reminder?

I'd be heartbroken to think that anybody was "gleefully" planning my funeral, as that would imply that they were eagerly looking forward to my death. However, I didn't see anybody in this thread doing that.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, I'll keep it in mind in future, but it never would have occurred to me that anybody would care, prior to this thread. And, as I have no idea why anybody _would_ care, I can't see any reason that I would have guessed that they would.

I can't imagine why, but it's obvious that many people agree with you. The OP's mom's wishes, to the extent that she's ever bothered to express them, are being honoured. Personally, I'd be far, far more bothered by being invited to participate in choosing my own urn than I would be if I happened to find out that my heirs had already taken care of that. My feelings (or someone else's) _might_ be hurt by such an invitation, so maybe advance planning should just not be done at all?









I still think advance planning, to whatever extent the planner is comfortable is much better than having to trudge through that while grieving.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

woah woah woah!!! this thread i think is getting off topic and becoming judgemental about OP and her family and how they 'celebrate' death.

every family does the process differently. she shared how her family handled death.

maybe it is not the same as ours. but that is no reason to say what she did was wrong.

my objection is the chuckle. rather than chuckling it would be good to find out or figure out why she could have been so mad.

its not about why is the son buying the urn and being excited about it. if the lady had known she would have probably been happy to see such a healthy attitude towards death.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i disagree. her reaction was v. plausible.

i mean lets imagine OP had posted just this part.

Nope, still rude to tell someone in front of their kid that you think they're doing something horrible to their kid, unless it is actual, obvious, abuse. And a kid with a big grin means doesn't qualify.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
I think it would have been more helpful to explain that making arrangements for your dad at the time of his death was distressing, so you'd decided to choose your mom's urn in advance because it would be so upsetting if after she passed you learned that the perfect urn was no longer available.









: Honestly, this is the reason I'm okay with the whole situation. I wouldn't choose to buy the urn before the death, but I haven't had a parent die.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I know a family that just lost a child to cancer, and I just cannot imagine them doing something like this behind his back, yk? I think grandma deserves no less consideration in this case.

You don't see the difference between a child dying and making preparations in accordance with the last discussion an adult had on the topic, in anticipation of a death by what might be old age?

Or to simplify it's a difference between "let's get ready because you're going to die" and "let's take care of these details so when the time comes we don't have to worry about it."

Like selecting a guardian for your kids, or buying burial plots, or writing a will.

Yeah, it'd be great if grandma were involved. Or maybe it wouldn't be. I suspect the OP and her ds have better things to discuss with grandma.

Grandma could still pick out her own urn if it floats her boat. As long as the OP and son don't then say "oh, no, we already have the one we like", having an urn already hurts nothing but storage space.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't think buying an urn is any different than picking out (and purchasing) plots to be buried in. I remember being 5, strolling with my grandmother through the cemetery, as she asked my opinion on which plot I liked best (for her!). I remember this as such a great time - the cemetery was like a really lovely park. We wound up picking a plot right next to a lovely, large tree.

I think pre-planning is very practical. Plus, I think this is a very healthy way to expose children to death. Usually people are very silent and fearful about death. Approaching it in a realistic, but non-scary way is a good idea, IMO.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Or to simplify it's a difference between "let's get ready because you're going to die" and "let's take care of these details so when the time comes we don't have to worry about it."
Like selecting a guardian for your kids, or buying burial plots, or writing a will.

All of these decisions are made by the concerned person himself/herself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Yeah, it'd be great if grandma were involved. Or maybe it wouldn't be. I suspect the OP and her ds have better things to discuss with grandma.

Grandma could still pick out her own urn if it floats her boat. As long as the OP and son don't then say "oh, no, we already have the one we like", having an urn already hurts nothing but storage space.

Floats her boat? She may or may not care less. But, it is incumbent upon those close, to seek the opinion of the person for whom the arrangements are being made.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stik* 
...may suddenly find themselves offended when they learn that the choice was made by a child well in advance of your mother's passing.

Or they may just assume that it was "handled" and not ever ask the details.

I don't know how the funerals I went to last year were planned. My aunt-in-law was in the hospital quite often maybe her funeral was planned by my uncle-in-law when she first went in for an organ donation. Maybe he never talked to her about it. I assume they did, since they'd bought plots together with my grandparents-in-law, but I don't really *know* because it's just not the sort of thing you ask.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
All of these decisions are made by the concerned person himself/herself.

Yep, and before her strokes grandma decided on cremation and an urn.

Not sure why so many people wanted the OP to waste her time with her mother trying to get her mother to understand that the urn was being bought now instead of in 30 years.

Especially those of you who think grandma would be distressed.

Maybe someone could explain exactly what harm happens to grandma if she never finds out the urn was bought in advance?


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Yep, and before her strokes grandma decided on cremation and an urn.

Are you sure about the urn part?

Also, expressing wishes about final rites and someone doing it (for someone else) before the actual passing are two different matters.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Are you sure about the urn part?

Also, expressing wishes about final rites and someone doing it (for someone else) before the actual passing are two different matters.

Remember, we're talking about a woman who has a 2 minute memory. All my comments are about this specific scenario, not about a totally competent person.

Nope, not sure about the urn, I read "buried with grandpa" and "types of containers" and "urns" and kind of mixed them.

So yes, grandma who apparently didn't give any details of how she was to be buried with her husband might have specific, non-urn ideas in that regard.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Remember, we're talking about a woman who has a 2 minute memory. All my comments are about this specific scenario, not about a totally competent person.


That was *short-term* memory loss per the OP. Getting off-topic. To get back on, the OP posted about a topic which is, as evident from the responses, something that folks feel strongly about.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
To get back on, the OP posted about a topic which is, as evident from the responses, something that folks feel strongly about.

Point.

I actually have no problem seeing where someone would be shocked at the situation in the OP. What I don't get is being upset because there was a child involved.

"You're doing WHAT?? That's HORRIBLE!" I could understand in so far as I could understand any outburst. Although that does still assume that grandma had no input. Which we know, but the acquaintance didn't know. For all she knew grandma had picked the urn out of a catalog and sent them to the store to buy it.

If a mama here had been the acquaintance and had posted about it, we'd have seen a few dozen posts about how "maybe their family handles death differently" and "you should have kept your mouth shut" and "how do you know that his grandmother knew nothing about the shopping trip?"


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

i wonder if she interpreted that as you guys cant wait for mother to die, or you dont care -
That. I've had the misfortune of meeting too many people who were impatient for their parents to die. Years ago I would have had a different, less negative reaction. Of course this woman should not have been rude yet not knowing her life story or experiences with dying/death, I cannot judge her on her reaction (just how she chose to express that reaction.)

Lest anyone think I'm in denial of some kind, my own plot was purchased when I was 20 years old. But I really have no attachment to it. My H and I have told each other our wishes but we both agree that the final decision must be whatever is most comforting to our child. Our position is that if death is nothing else, we hope it puts an end to caring about the details.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Some people still want to tell 10 yr olds that "grandma's just sleeping".They are so tied up in their own fear, they can't be honest about it all. These are frequently the people who would rather let their kids flounder around with peers rather than share the facts about sex.








I think you did a wonderful thing. Death is a part of life, and pretending it will never happen to someone our child loves will do nothing to help them prepare for and cope with the truth.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Can we all be gentle with how we talk about this other mom? She was outside a funeral home, and might have been dealing with a loss, and her grief could have colored her reaction. She isn't necessarily freaked out by death in general. Maybe she's just responding to the feelings surrounding a death she's dealing with now.


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

*Hello, I'm back!

Sorry I haven't responded to you earlier, we've been dealing with more issues with my Mom. Another small stroke. She will be 89 on Monday, Oct. 12. Happy Birthday, Mom!!









I had no idea this post would grow to a thread of such length. I appreciate all your comments (yes, I did read all of them!), both the positive and the negative.

I have further info regarding the friend and your responses.

First off, the friend we saw was NOT going into the funeral home, she was simply parked in front of it (having been, instead, in case you wish to know, renewing her driver's license across the street!). I know this as I just got off the phone with her.

She actually called me to apologise to ds (not to me, but to ds!) for calling me a terrible parent in front of him. He told her not to worry, he understood how she might have been bothered about it. She said, to me, she didn't feel children should have anything to do with death and dying, unless it was to attend a funeral.









I explained we felt differently, especially as ds had been upset that he hadn't been consulted about what his favorite grandfather had been buried in (other than his mess dress military uniform). He had felt left-out of those arrangements and it had made him mad, at the time. When he told me all that, I promised him he could help with any future dealings that were possible. His concern to purchase that particular urn was that it was the one he thought was most like my Mom and he was worried it wouldn't be available when her time, eventually, does come. It is important to HIM. If you knew my Mom, you'd know that her greatest desire is whatever her favorite grandson want is alright with her. They are incredibly close.

She said she still wasn't sure but, whatever. We agreed to disagree and that was that. A lunch date is planned for next week!

WHY would anyone think we'd harm my Mom???? I don't understand that type of thinking!! We've done nothing but care for all our parents as they have aged. We don't need their money. I cannot see how buying an urn would lead to that type of conclusion.









My Mom decided, years ago, her desire to be cremated. My Dad wanted to be buried. It was part of the codicil to their wills, POAs, advanced directives, etc. They both stated their wishes for everything, writing their desire that I make all the arrangements. This was all witnessed and notarized. We'd talked about what they wanted. I am the POA for my Mom (and, executor, when that time comes). I was the same for my Dad.

They clearly stated their wishes: The cheapest casket available, per my Dad, cardboard, if available (it was). Cremation, for Mom (with a pinch of her ashes to be scattered in Hapshetsut's tomb, in Egypt! We will...). Mom wants her ashes to be placed at the foot of the same plot Dad is in (she states she always felt she was "the stable foundation that allowed him to serve his country"). No funerals for either. No flowers. A headstone of my chosing and creation (Dad's is having a crossword puzzle design, Mom's will be Egyptian-themed). The family plot, here in our small town.

So, you see, they did/have made their wishes known. Mom would have chosen an urn, but it's something we never got around to doing with her.*

*Another poster wrote:*

Quote:

I think there's also a decent chance that while you've taken care of this little end-of-life chore, diplomatically presenting the results to your relatives may be more of a chore than you seem to be anticipating.

Quote:

...may suddenly find themselves offended when they learn that the choice was made by a child well in advance of your mother's passing.
*Well, as NONE of my 3 siblings has had anything to do with Mom OR Dad for many years, their feelings aren't really any of my concern. They have not phoned once, in the year since Dad died, to ask how Mom is doing. So, whether they like the choice of urn, when it was purchased or even where Mom is placed in the plot, is of no interest to me. Had they been involved with our parents' lives, during these last aging years, it would be a different story. They could care less about which urn or when it is purchased. They never asked about Dad's casket, so this is not an issue. Choosing an urn, pre-need, is not offensive, not being involved with your living, aging parents IS.

For those couple of relatives that have been emotionally close (Dad's brother & his wife, and one cousin, both living far away), their concerns are not about the burial arrangements of my parents. They know me, they know my parents and they know how I have been caring for them these past many years.*

Quote:

Given his difficulty in understanding your friend's reaction, I think your faith in your son's tact might be a greater than evidence warrants. I'm sure he's perfectly tactful under ordinary circumstances but it sounds like, while he understands that death is an inevitable natural process, he hasn't yet developed empathy for other people's feelings about it. You should definitely talk to him about how this will be approached with his Grandmother and other relatives.
*It was her vicious outburst that startled him, not the reasoning behind it. He knows not everyone deals with death the way we do. He realizes not everyone accepts their own mortality (my fil refuses to discuss anything to do with his own, future, passing). He was angry at her nasty reaction to me. We know people that do things we don't agree with, but we have the tact and manners not to attack them for it. It's none of our business.

Not trying to sound snarky but, as you don't know ds, I can assure you he is most empathetic towards the dying and their relatives and friends. He has been around the elderly for many years since my Mom had her first stroke. He saw my Dad going downhill fast and how nice people treated him, how kind they were. He witnessed the care the nurses cared for my mil, when she was dying and the personnel that helped Mom in rehab, after her first stroke. He saw and learned and is one of the most wonderful and empathetic people I know.

He is also practical, like me. There are times when the practical can override the emotional, and now is that time. So, we bought the urn he liked and we bought it pre-need. Done deal.

No, Mom was NOT involved in the choice of the urn. Had we waited until she was gone, she wouldn't have a choice then, either. It makes no difference to her. We are not going to tell her about it. Why should we?

As many feel she should be part of this decision: The main reason not to take her urn shopping is it was at the same funeral home that handled my Dad's arrangements. Mom doesn't remember what she had for lunch or what you said 5 minutes ago, but she does, oddly, remember having met someone before. She would have remembered meeting the nice man at the funeral home (he's also a close friend of ours). We had concerns that it would have triggered the memory of Dad's death (the urn display is in the same room as the casket Dad was buried in), which hit her so hard last year. To remind her of that would be like ripping open a wound. There is just no reason to do so. She still thinks her parents are alive (they would be 117 & 120, were they alive). Why should we cause her pain???

We don't take her to the cemetary either, for the same reason. A part of her has forgotten or buried Dad's death (no pun intended). To remind her of it would not be helpful. Were she of completely sound mind, yes, the grieving process is something that must be traveled. But, as she is not my "old" Mom (with it, cognizant or emotionally stable) it would be cruel to do that to her.

She has had multiple strokes. Her memory is more than just short-term. It IS 2-minute memory. Remember the movie, "Groundhog Day" about the guy that relives the same day, over and over and over? Well, with Mom, it's that way by the quarter hour. And, it has declined from the decade memory day memory to the half-day memory to the hour memory to the minute memory, for the past 5 years. Her mind is back in the 1950's, not in the here and now.

Sorry, I digress............

Anyway, almost all is well with the horrified friend (lunch should be interesting!), Mom's urn sits safely in the garage and we hope it won't be used for many years (a probability, as the women on Mom's side all live to 100+).

Ds adores his grandmother more than anyone else (except, possibly, dh & I







). She was there when he was born and has been incredibly involved in his life ever since. She is the one he tells first, of any event in his life.

When her time comes, as it does for everyone, it will be easier, for him and for all of us, that certain arrangements have been made. That ds is capable and desirous of helping with these is something we respect. If it helps him, there is nothing wrong with it. It works for our family.

I hope this helps with the concerns that many of you have!!*









*Feel free to keep the comments coming..........*


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you for the update. I've been following your thread. Your and your family's attitude about life and death is so beautiful. Your son is lucky to have such loving and considerate parents.

It's encouraging your friend apologized to him. I hope she comes around and apologizes to you at your lunch with her. Death really brings out strong (and strange) emotions in folks.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

I think you are an awesome mom and daughter.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherry Alive* 
.

It's encouraging your friend apologized to him. I hope she comes around and apologizes to you at your lunch with her.









:


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
*
WHY would anyone think we'd harm my Mom???? I don't understand that type of thinking!! We've done nothing but care for all our parents as they have aged. We don't need their money. I cannot see how buying an urn would lead to that type of conclusion.








*

Because, unfortunately, some of us know people who have harmed their parents out of impatience for them to die. I will take your word for it that you are not one of them!

And I'm looking forward to hearing about the lunch. Children shouldn't have anything to do with death except to attend a funeral? What if a child dies, is that child allowed to be involved with death?

Does your friend come from some other culture with extra-strong taboos about being around death, or against cremation, or something like that?


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Because, unfortunately, some of us know people who have harmed their parents out of impatience for them to die. I will take your word for it that you are not one of them!


of course some people do but the majority of people dont...for goodness sakes. I am just shaking my head over here at some of the things people say or assume on these forums its like people just want to find something to clash over or mull over unnecessarily. I think even assuming someone would do ill will to another person (esp a loved one) you dont even really know is just bizarre to me. Maybe too many people have overactive imaginations but that is something I never even assumed about the op reading this thread. I am sorry but I am surprised noone said this already or maybe I missed it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98* 
*

WHY would anyone think we'd harm my Mom???? I don't understand that type of thinking!! We've done nothing but care for all our parents as they have aged. We don't need their money. I cannot see how buying an urn would lead to that type of conclusion.








*

There are so many horrible things that happen in the world that are done by such nice people that nobody knows what someone will do. When people seem to be gleefully planning for a death during a time of extreme stress it isn't necessarily a good sign. I realize that isn't what you are doing, but I don't think it is an unreasonable conclusion to come to because stress pushes people quite frequently. We have seen many murders in our area caused by stress with the recent economic downturn. It is a sad thing, but if you saw someone joyfully buying an urn for a loved one who was causing them a lot of stress you may also be worried about that person and what they were up to. I know I would see what I could do to help them with the burden because I would fear they were not dealing with the stress well.


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Wow. It sounds like you and your son have an awesome relationship. You sound like an amazing woman and mother, and daughter.








to you


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
There are so many horrible things that happen in the world that are done by such nice people that nobody knows what someone will do. When people seem to be gleefully planning for a death during a time of extreme stress it isn't necessarily a good sign. I realize that isn't what you are doing, but I don't think it is an unreasonable conclusion to come to because stress pushes people quite frequently. We have seen many murders in our area caused by stress with the recent economic downturn. It is a sad thing, but if you saw someone joyfully buying an urn for *a loved one who was causing them a lot of stress* you may also be worried about that person and what they were up to. I know I would see what I could do to help them with the burden because I would fear they were not dealing with the stress well.

umm...that's really odd. The last thing I'd think if I saw a 10 year old boy talking about picking out an urn for his grandmother's ashes is, "wow - his mom is under stress and planning to kill her mom and got her son to pick the urn". I'm not going to be thinking that the 10 year old is happy about choosing an urn because he's in on the murder plot. Just...no.

Also, with respect to the bolded part, I didn't see the OP say anywhere that her mom was causing her a lot of stress, or that the acquaintance would have any reason to believe that. Mind you, the rude outburst in the OP would be very unlikely to ease that stress in any way, even if the acquaintance had jumped to such a bizarre conclusion.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

I think what you and your son did was awesome. What a beautiful way to talk about and think about and honor the idea of the death of a loved one. I wish I had been raised in a home where such "taboo" topics were discussed so openly.

Peace to you, your son, and especially your mom.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Crumbs. now this thread has me wondering if I'd be offended if anyone bought me an urn. And I'm not sure. Let's see... I'd rather be buried than cremated, but that's a preference I'm happy to forgo for the sake of cheapness (on the grounds that, well, I'll be dead). Plus, I've recently been thinking I ought to donate myself to medical science... something that doesn't really appeal, but see above re. dead! Also, I think most urns are tacky... but then, I haven't made a particular study of them. (I'll bet you can buy work-of-art rns on Etsy!) Plus, again... dead!

So in conclusion, I'd probably find it rather odd, but I'd only be offended if it was my mother-in-law who purchased the urn.







If it were one of my sisters we'd probably get into a very complex argument about the design of it, and then I'd go "Eh" and forget it. Just like we have long, involved discussions about the music we want at our funerals, and then go "Eh" and forget it.









Side question, and I hope this isn't too macabre, but how big does an urn have to be? I don't believe I've ever been to a funeral where ashes were scattered or anything. Are there, like, cups of ashes, or only a little? Inquiring minds want to know...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
but if you saw someone joyfully buying an urn for a loved one who was causing them a lot of stress you may also be worried about that person and what they were up to.

Um, not really. If the person's so far gone as to do something as public as go urn shopping with their kid, I'd expect other signs of impending violence.

Premeditated murder is something most people keep under wraps, y'know?


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE FROM?? Never in a million years would I think the OP is plotting to kill her mother and getting her son to buy the urn. It is so out of left field it is almost funny!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Side question, and I hope this isn't too macabre, but how big does an urn have to be? I don't believe I've ever been to a funeral where ashes were scattered or anything. Are there, like, cups of ashes, or only a little? Inquiring minds want to know...

http://www.funeral-urn.com/ 220 cubic inches. 60 for keepsake.


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## innle (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neverdoingitagain* 







I think I found my new headstone epitaph. That or "I told you so."









I've always loved Spike Milligan's one: "I told you I was ill."

I'm glad to read an update! I think the friend's reaction was understandable (in my mind), but still rude, and I am glad to hear that she has apologised to him.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE FROM?? Never in a million years would I think the OP is plotting to kill her mother and getting her son to buy the urn. It is so out of left field it is almost funny!

The people I know who have possibly/ probably euthanized their parents, are related to me and live in different parts of the country.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

this thread has been closed to new posting.


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