# Sometimes it amazes me that the human race hasn't died out already...



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

...because parenting seems so hard to me that I don't know why people have continued to reproduce. If I knew how hard this would be I might not have done it. Maybe it's just me though. Maybe I am just incompetent because seriously this thought crosses my mind all the time. How have humans survived if it is this damn hard to raise kids? It must not be so difficult for most people or humans would be extinct. I must admit things were much much much easier with one, that is after the initial shock wore off. But still, two kids shouldn't be this hard, right? I see mamas here with like five kids who homeschool all of them, make all their food from scratch, raise chickens, sew diapers, etc, etc, etc. What is their secret? What am I doing wrong? Is it me? Is it my kids? Am I just thinking about it the wrong way? Do they have easy kids that actually sleep? I've gotten to the point where I really don't feel comfortable judging other parents for things I consider(ed?) wrong because I think it's amazing that they are just keeping their kids alive which is a feat in and of itself. I dunno, maybe I am just having a bad day...week...month...eh, more like a year.


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## Curlyfry7 (Jun 20, 2007)

No answers for you-I could have written this post myself, word for word. Other than some slight age differences and a reverse in the genders I think we have the same kids..............I am eager (actually desperate) to see what others write for you...


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

I know how you feel. I'm overwhelmed a lot of the time, and find myself _pining_ for the freedom I used to have - and I had desperately wanted a baby! Do you have enough support around you? I know this is a huge part of the problem for me.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Have only a minute - but there could be any number of things different between your situation and the homeschooling-mother-of-five-goddess you described.

For one thing - your energy levels. You could have lower energy for some reason, perhaps adrenal fatigue or a chronic low-level infection in your body, or hypothyroidism or even a mild metabolic disorder.

Your kids could be higher needs than another's.

Your support system could be poorer.

Anyway, gotta go - but I ain't supermom myself, so you're in great company!


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I can relate.







Although my thoughts are more along the lines of why the h*ll did I bring children in to such a sick, sometimes horrible world. The way the economy is currently, watching their grandparents be terminally sick, getting their hopes and dreams crushed at some point in life, being let down by people, having relationships not work out, etc etc. The list goes on. I really do not want my children to have to go through all the bad things in life and wonder why I didn't think about that before thrusting them unwillingly in to this life. Then I think about how wonderful they are and how I can't imagine life without them and try hard to raise them to be prepared for all the bad in the world, as well I can anyway.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Just thinking out loud......

a) more kids under the age of 5 died

b) parents exerted more parental control, keeping strict order

c) the kids did chores, lots of them

d) before electric lights.. going to bed at dark was common and normal

e) mothers might have had more live in help, often the mother's youngest unmarried sister was sent for a time to help out the growing family .... also younger brothers might spend time at your farm until your boys were old enough to work the stock and do heavy labor

Life was hard work back then but it had fewer distractions. People didn't worry so much about happy. They worried about feeding everyone and keeping the land fertile.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

well parenting is not hard. it never was until nuclear family.

it is the hardest thing to do alone.

it is the easiest thing to do in a group. its like you have many children and your child has many mothers and someone is always looking out for them.

you have support. you have adults to talk to.

for myself i will say - parenting is not hard. but when i am in a bad place it is the hardest place to be.

when i am in a good place parenting is pure joy. even the tantrums and 'bad' behaviour.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
Do you have enough support around you? I know this is a huge part of the problem for me.

The only family my husband and I have around here is his brother and his wife. They are very nice and love the kids, but they are both extremely busy people with careers, side jobs, and school, so they can't help out much. Most of the friends I had before having kids are busy with their jobs and/or families. I have made some SAHP friends in the neighborhood which has been nice but we aren't all that close, at least not yet. I wish my mom and my sister still lived here.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think parenting is hard. I think the modern world today is hard, and that makes parenting hard.

Not so much the loss of the village, but the loss of extended family and the isolation most of us have around us. I think this magnifies everything negative, and things seem harder to cope with because we are so alone.

I'm not a village girl, but darn I sure wouldn't mind some active grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. We've got no one. We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

Still.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh mama. I'm sorry you're in this place.


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## foxtrot (Jan 27, 2008)

I could have written your post. I probably have written something similar. I've stopped voicing it though because I never get any real support from people other than to say "you must be depressed".

I'm probably a little more hopeful than you because my oldest is 6 and I've seen the "other side" as I like to call it. The other side of baby/toddlerhood and if the same thing happens as what happened with my son when he turned about 3.5-4 I go from just hating motherhood to LOVING it. I just SUCK with little kids. I'll be honest and say I truly hate the baby/toddler stuff and so that is why it feels so darned hard right now.

Oh, and my kids DO NOT SLEEP. Well, my 6 year old does now and he's an awesome sleeper now. My 18 month old is a thousand times worse than he was though and I didn't think that was possible. I know the lack of sleep and the lack of support (no family nearby except a busy sister and brother-in-law) is part of why it is so hard.

I don't know why I had a second child. I thought I'd be fine because I'd already been down the road and knew what to expect. What I didn't plan on was that once I got past the hard part (DS was 4.5 when DD was born) I would never want to revisit it. And I just don't get the "it goes by so fast" stuff. I wish it did. It's been an atrociously long 18 months so far with DD.

I truly do understand how you feel. I really do. And when I read about the mothers that are doing all the things you mention I just sit here completely, utterly baffled at how they do it.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I don't think parenting is hard. I think the modern world today is hard, and that makes parenting hard.

Not so much the loss of the village, but the loss of extended family and the isolation most of us have around us. I think this magnifies everything negative, and things seem harder to cope with because we are so alone.

I'm not a village girl, but darn I sure wouldn't mind some active grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. We've got no one. We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

Still.


Dito

and in a way we have made it hard with all those books we read when we are prego. How many opinions do we need?


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I don't think parenting is hard. I think the modern world today is hard, and that makes parenting hard.

Not so much the loss of the village, but the loss of extended family and the isolation most of us have around us. I think this magnifies everything negative, and things seem harder to cope with because we are so alone.

I'm not a village girl, but darn I sure wouldn't mind some active grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. We've got no one. We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

Still.

I could have completely written your post (was going to post the same ideas when I read your post LOL).

What we should have it multigenerational parenting...that it what naturally would have existed. Plus, we'd see bigger gaps between children with natural extended breastfeeding, etc.

If I could imagine a life without TV, internet, etc. Being able to focus on one thing at a time. So few complications...no stuff to fool around with and clean. Sure, living would be hard and people would be active...but there would be such a err of peace and simplicity about it. For sure.

Personal energy levels and the demands of modern living are insane.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
... Do they have easy kids that actually sleep?

I'll tell you what, if my child didn't sleep well my life would be one million times harder and more stressful than it is right now. I can handle a lot of things, but I am NOT good with chronic exhaustion. IMO this alone could account for 90% of why other people may be handling things "better" than you-- they're getting sleep!









Hang in there, mama.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I will say, having been single for the majority of my pregnancy and time parenting, that you just can't do it all. The problem is that sometimes we build up in our heads taht we have to do it all....I know I thought so.

The first year of ym ds's life, I worked full time (7-3), went to school full time (online and at night after he went to bed), cloth diapered, made my own baby food from scratch, exclusively breastfed, pumped a zillion times a day, did all the laundry on a strict schedule, coslept/never let him CIO even if it took me three hours to put him to sleep, took him on outings 2-3x a week, always had him completely matching from hat to sneakers, in brand name clothes that i scoured craigslist and consignment stores for in my "free time." My friends were amazed.

what they didn't know (although eventually it became apparent) is that i became severly underweight (85 lbs) from the stress, my hair started falling out, and by the end of the year i was not entirely the parent i wanted to be, because I had become so sleep deprived I was no longer myself.\

If I could do ti over again i would cut myself a break. i think that's what you should do. you don't see the other side of those homeschooling-mother-of-five-homemaker-extraordinaires. it may not eb going as well as it seems to be.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
The only family my husband and I have around here is his brother and his wife. They are very nice and love the kids, but they are both extremely busy people with careers, side jobs, and school, so they can't help out much. Most of the friends I had before having kids are busy with their jobs and/or families. I have made some SAHP friends in the neighborhood which has been nice but we aren't all that close, at least not yet. I wish my mom and my sister still lived here.









Do you get out and do child friendly activities. Library story time can be fun as can going to the library and just reading some books. I usually meet someone at the park to talk to, and when I don't I enjoy the change in scenery. I also try not to compare myself to other parents and beat myself up over my energy level or the times I lose my patience. I learn from them and move on because I am not somebody else.
Sometimes it also helps to fantasize about going on vacation and being alone for a weekend with nobody else except me, in a hotel room. I find planning my fantasy vacation to be almost as enjoyable as it would be to go on vacation alone.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
...because parenting seems so hard to me that I don't know why people have continued to reproduce. If I knew how hard this would be I might not have done it. Maybe it's just me though. Maybe I am just incompetent because seriously this thought crosses my mind all the time. How have humans survived if it is this damn hard to raise kids?

It's not just you. Sometimes I think I'd have left at least one of my kids for the smilodons if we were back in the caveman days.

I think parents were a lot harder and stricter on their children, and life was harder and children, like adults, had to work, but the work was kind of an entertainment. And life was hard enough that the ways parents exerted control were not seen as bad, but necessary, and there was more a pecking order with older children and adults.

What I have a hard time with is the emotional angst, how much anger than can be in the house on a day to day basis. You wake up feeling pretty good, and immediately are beset upon by angry children who have problems and demand that you move heaven and earth to fix them, but seem unhappy with every solution.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Good luck! It is so important to have support - and also to have others who relate to, engage and enjoy your kids. I have found that very valuable anyway.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I haven't been doing this so long but I'm told by most of the moms I know that I am handling things far better than most and that I seem to be "doing a better job" whatever that means.

You wanna know how I do it? I don't have expectations. If I need to cancel on everything I wanted to do today then I do. I'm lucky. This is a tremendous luxury and ... I only have one kid so far and she's just one year old. We'll see how I do in a few more years with another kid or two.









I wanted to be a parent more than anything else in life. This is the culmination of years of hard work and planning. I'm ok with her being the center of my universe and as a result she's happy and I'm happy. If I had responsibilities beyond her my life would be really hard because I don't think she would adjust well. I'm starting to feel nervous about adding another kidlet to the mix...


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## RunAround (Feb 12, 2009)

Um, your kids are at rough ages. And, in my experience, it doesn't get much easier for awhile. Honestly, I could have written your post a few times since my youngest was born over 2 years ago. Parents have many different personality types and so do their kids. I'm a somewhat tightly wound person and - surprise! surprise! - so is my oldest. And, yes, people who have good sleepers are truly fortunate people. Personally, I think kids who sleep well are an urban myth.







Going from 1 to 2 (and our first was and is so, so hard to parent) has been, er, overwhelming at times. Many times.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Believe that. And, don't worry about those homeschooling large families. Most mamas look like they have it together from the outside (yes, even you!).

My husband and I do not have extended family available, emotionally or geographically, and having our high needs oldest cost us most of our "friends". (He has sensory issues, but it was just a matter of not trying the right parenting trick, don't ya know!) So, I finally did the next best thing. I send him to preschool so my youngest and I get a few hours of breathing room each week.

Yeah, I don't know how humans survive given how tough it is. But, truly, you'll get through this.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Boy I've been thinking about this too. I think of my mom and just shake my head. This woman moved 3k miles away from anyone. Her husband went out to see for 6-9 months at a time and she managed to have a batch of kids, 4 under 6yrs and raise them AP/TF/CD/BF etc then she went on to homeschool all of them. To be honest though, after number I think 7 or 8 she gave up making foods from scratch and cloth diapering. But still!

Meanwhile I consider it a good day if I manage to get my assignments submitted on time, catch a poop (EC) and put together a fast food-ish type meal in time for DH to get home from work or bonus: clean some part of the house/me/baby lol.









I have no idea how the woman did it.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RunAround* 
Um, your kids are at rough ages. And, in my experience, it doesn't get much easier for awhile. Honestly, I could have written your post a few times since my youngest was born over 2 years ago. Parents have many different personality types and so do their kids. I'm a somewhat tightly wound person and - surprise! surprise! - so is my oldest. And, yes, people who have good sleepers are truly fortunate people. Personally, I think kids who sleep well are an urban myth.







Going from 1 to 2 (and our first was and is so, so hard to parent) has been, er, overwhelming at times. Many times.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Believe that. And, don't worry about those homeschooling large families. Most mamas look like they have it together from the outside (yes, even you!).

My husband and I do not have extended family available, emotionally or geographically, and having our high needs oldest cost us most of our "friends". (He has sensory issues, but it was just a matter of not trying the right parenting trick, don't ya know!) So, I finally did the next best thing. I send him to preschool so my youngest and I get a few hours of breathing room each week.

Yeah, I don't know how humans survive given how tough it is. But, truly, you'll get through this.










It's not an urban myth; DD STTN. But I think that comes with a price. She doesn't go down for a nap. I can hold her for a 15 minute period where she is kinda semi asleep/resting but that's it. The entire day is a day for entertaining an impatient 6.5mo who isn't quite independently mobile and just wants me to walk her around.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

s: I was just thinking the other day about extended families such that my mom and dad grew up in.

Most of the time there was a much higher adult to small child ratio. People werent expected to handle 2-3 children under the age of 8 *alone*.

I hope that things get easier for you, and I"m sure you are doing a wonderful job.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

You're not alone! I broke down crying the other day, turned to my DH and said "It shouldn't be this hard. If it was this hard for everyone no one would have kids." And I've only got one!

I'm actually terrified to even think about another, though I wanted 2-3 kids. But even taking a 1 in a 100 risk that another one would be as difficult as DD is too much for me.

But I do think there are extenuating circumstances in different people's lives - e.g. how 'high needs' your kid(s) are, how healthy you are, how much sleep you're getting. And yes, I think social support is crucial.

As PPs have said, in the past we parented as a group. There were plenty of adults around, sharing the job of parenting, and there were plenty of kids to look after each other and keep themselves occupied.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Touching on what many PPs have said, I see this from the dual lenses of cultural anthropology and evolutionary biology. To start with, for the vast majority of human history, people have:

1. Had about a tenth the space and a hundredth of the material posessions the vast majority of Westerners do today;

2. Lived in family/tribal groups in which _most_ adults were around _most_ of the time and _everyone_ watched out for kids;

3. Enjoyed a 'walking' pace of new information and cultural change, compared to our jet speed.

4. Freakin' GOT and supported the (still huge) task of motherhood.

All these things are part of normal, healthy human behavior. They make an enormous difference. Our species is not evolved to live in the tiny, autonomous unit that is the nuclear family. Raising even one child when you are the only adult around most of the time is exhausting. Two is Herculean. Three or more is, imo, the realm of that slim minority of women who are truly Mama gifted in their personal strengths and skill set.

I totally don't buy the "parents were tougher and less attached" argument. In my younger days I worked with immigrants and refugees in Chicago, and got to know families from dozens of cultures more closely aligned with traditional human practices. I learned so much from them. Many were more hierarchical than MDC families, but among _most people_ close attachment and loving, gentle relationships with children is just... normal. Yes, parents in relatively recent Western history (like the last several hundred years) have trended toward the harsh and detached--I see this as evidence of things already going wrong in the bent of Western cultures.

So the good news is, it's not you. At all. The bad news is that our culture is in crisis.


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## sahmmie (Jan 13, 2008)

My youngest is now 3 1/2 and I can tell you it does get easier. I remember feeling the way you do not too long ago. And I fully get what it's like to do it alone. My family lives on the east coast (I'm in the midwest). My husband's family lives out of state and only visit 3-4 times per year. All of my friends work full time except one, but I didn't know her when my kids were smaller. It's just plain hard to do it alone. In other cultures mothers are pampered and families help raise small children. But here we are expected to do it alone and be super mom on top of it.

Hang in there. But definitely try to find some support and some time away from the kids. Even a few hours a week alone by yourself tending to your own needs can be rejuvenating. Can you hire a college or high school student to help out a little in the summer?


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

I have 6, and to be honest, going from 1 to 2, was the WORST! I dont know why, but that was *the* hardest for me. I had such a rough time. After talking to my friends, it seems they had it the hardest during the 1-2 transition as well. Heck, after we went up to 2, my dh 3 kids (from previous marriage) moved in and that was a peice of cake compared to the 1-2! Seriously!

Hang in there. It will get better.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

ah... but that's why it feels so good to make the babies!

2 kids is definitely harder than 1. Remember too that when we were a tribal and an agricultural society, there was a whole bevy of aunties and older kids to take care of the younger ones. Your 3 year old would not be solely reliant on you for everything. You could hand off the infant to another person to wear for a bit. It really DOES take a village!

ETA: it does get easier as they get older. Our kids are 5 and 8 now.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I don't think parenting is hard. I think the modern world today is hard, and that makes parenting hard.

Not so much the loss of the village, but the loss of extended family and the isolation most of us have around us. I think this magnifies everything negative, and things seem harder to cope with because we are so alone.

I'm not a village girl, but darn I sure wouldn't mind some active grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. We've got no one. We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

Still.

ditto


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## 34me (Oct 2, 2006)

I hate to be a downer but I too could have written your post and mine are 15, 13 next month and 10. My 13 yo still doesn't sleep and I get very little respect even though I try and am mostly successful at respecting them in all that they do......


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snuzzmom* 
I'll tell you what, if my child didn't sleep well my life would be one million times harder and more stressful than it is right now. I can handle a lot of things, but I am NOT good with chronic exhaustion. IMO this alone could account for 90% of why other people may be handling things "better" than you-- they're getting sleep!









Hang in there, mama.

Chronic exhaustion is definitely _my_ problem, and it sounds like it might be the OP's, as well. Some people cope better than others, but exhaustion is brutal - it really is. (I'm finding the 40, pregnant, high needs ds2, emotional turmoil over birth, etc. combination I really kicking my butt.)

OP: I don't know what to say, but I'm cheering you on. Things will get better...but there's no guarantee as to _when_.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shenjall* 
I have 6, and to be honest, going from 1 to 2, was the WORST! I dont know why, but that was *the* hardest for me. I had such a rough time. After talking to my friends, it seems they had it the hardest during the 1-2 transition as well. Heck, after we went up to 2, my dh 3 kids (from previous marriage) moved in and that was a peice of cake compared to the 1-2! Seriously!

Hang in there. It will get better.









I've heard this before, and I find it very reassuring, since I'm expecting again in 6 weeks. I found going from 2 to 3 the hardest, but we have an unusually big gap (10 years) between the oldest two, so the dynamic going from 1 to 2 was very different than it usually is, I think.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

I have five kids and I'm a lunatic...rofl! I live near almost no active family and my husband is in the miltary so he goes away, ALOT and I am alone! Many moms look all put together but we may not be as put together as you think. Some days, I dont get anything accomplished and my house looks like world war three just went down in it and that my kids just busted out anarchy over me, okay rofl. Lucky for them I really love them and enjoy kids, not to add I have the near patience of a saint. I look put together and with it but I'm some days stressed and a mess on the inside. I am not organized at all. Everyone always says to me I dont know how you do it, I just say "because I have to and chose to" . I'm not super mom and neither are they.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I think there are a lot of factors at play here: lack of helping hands, lack of safe free space for kids to wander around and play with other kids, lack of lots of animals (I know dd would be a lot more occupied if we had a mess of pigs about our house!), the harsh cultural pressures we experience, the shocking speed of change that we have to internalize and cope with, the lack of sleep (some kids are just born rotten sleepers, I think), etc. I agree that it's really hard to judge how "pulled together" other moms are from the outside. I have a friend who has just had baby #5. All of her kids are under age 6. She single-handedly takes these kids everywhere--parks, swimming pools, across the country. She has no family nearby but she does have a strong social support system via her religion (she's Mormon). However, she sleep trains her kids from a very early age. Crying doesn't bother her. If they are out and about, the youngest one naps in a stroller or in the car. If they cry, her reasoning is that they'll either eventually stop or pass out from exhaustion. She never plays with her kids and her house is never clean. To be honest, I cannot be this kind of mom. I'm an introvert who needs lots of quiet time per day. I love to read and do activities for myself or I feel like I'm going to die. I also just don't have the thick skin that can allow my child to be upset. I do have parents who help me every day, and I'm so thankful for that, but from birth dd has been more demanding than my friend's 5 other kids put together. Amazingly, this woman has just been blessed with 5 easy going kids who are great sleepers and her extroverted personality is such that they are a great match and she's fine with all the chaos in her house. My child was very high needs from birth and at 3.5 still sleeps worse than most newborns. I also like having a pulled together house, eating quiet meals, traveling--things not conducive to having lots of children.

If I had to sum it up, I'd say that some parents are just more suited personality-wise to dealing with boatloads of kids (extroverted, don't mind mess, etc.). Some people have lots of family help or don't mind hiring lots of babysitters. Some people get lucky (whether it's having an easy-going child or a child who sleeps, etc.). I've just learned to accept that I do not meet these criteria, and that's why my child is going to be an only. And I'm not going to let anyone make me feel less of a supermom because I don't want to go through this again. It takes all kinds of people to make a world, ya know?








to you!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Riverscout, I am where you are. I have two boys, a three year old, and a six month old, also born in October just like you. For these first several months after my second was born, I was having some monsterous postpartum migraines. I don't know what I would have done if my mom hadn't stepped in to take care of my 3 year old. Every time he would come home I'd get another migraine. Now my doctors now realize it was from my blood pressure rising. Having to take care of 2 was just that stressful to me.

After nearly having several panic attacks and telling my husband that this is NOT me and that I CAN'T do this, I went on medications for my AD/HD...something I swore I wouldn't do while I was nursing. I researched dr. Hale's and decided to go with Concerta. Things are a bit easier now, but there are good days and bad days.

Hang in there. You are not alone.


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## Krisis (May 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
And I just don't get the "it goes by so fast" stuff. I wish it did. It's been an atrociously long 18 months so far with DD.

I THINK I LOVE YOU. This this this!!! I hate this stage we're stuck in right now, halfway between baby and toddler. And I can't imagine enjoying toddlerness, but I cannot WAIT until he's an official Little Kid. I don't get the "it goes by so fast" stuff either. I wish it was going by a LOT faster. Yarrgh.


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Whenever I start to feel less of a supermom than the have a dozen kids, homeschool, make your own laundry soap moms (Michelle Dugger, I am looking at you here!) I remind myself that I have only been doing this for ten months. Moms who have it more together tend to have YEARS of experience on me. They have routines and systems in place while I am still muddling through and still learning the hard way.

If you looked at other career you would naturally expect the person with 20 years of experience to be more comfortable, relaxed and productive than the one who has only been doing it for a few months. I don't know why as a society we believe that mothers should have everything figured out as soon as their first baby emerges from the womb.

And I definitely agree that the demands of our modern day life are a lot greater. Moms today are working a full-time job, picking the kids up at daycare, running to soccer practice, violin lessons and tai kwon do, nursing, picking up the dry cleaning, getting the oil changed, buying the groceries, cooking dinner, cleaning the house, etc., etc., etc. June Cleaver just had to figure out what pearls to wear while she vaccuumed.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
And I just don't get the "it goes by so fast" stuff. I wish it did. It's been an atrociously long 18 months so far with DD.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krisis* 
I THINK I LOVE YOU. This this this!!! I hate this stage we're stuck in right now, halfway between baby and toddler. And I can't imagine enjoying toddlerness, but I cannot WAIT until he's an official Little Kid. I don't get the "it goes by so fast" stuff either. I wish it was going by a LOT faster. Yarrgh.

FWIW...ds1 is 16. For a lot of years, I'd have laughed - I did laugh - at the idea that it goes by so fast (and that was despite missing so much, because I was a WOHM, who desperately wanted to be a SAHM). And, now he's 16. He's got a serious girlfriend. He's talking about getting a drivers license and moving out in "a couple of years". He's an Outdoor School counselor, and goes away for 3-5 days at a time for extracurricular activities.

And...it went by _so_ fast. I can't even begin to believe how fast.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Yay!!! They are both asleep.







:









Anyway, thanks so much everyone for your supportive words and commiseration too. So much of what has been said here really resonates with me. I am so incredibly exhausted at the moment I think I am going to have to leave it at that for now. I'm going to grab a quick bite to eat with my husband and try to get to bed so I can get some sleep before all hell breaks loose later. I'll try to post more tomorrow...or in the middle of the night when I am up with the baby







.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

OK, I have to jump in! I'm another exhausted mom w/ similar aged kids. I agree w/ what everyone else has posted, but IMHO it's the age of your youngest. At that age w/ 1st I seriously thought I was losing my mind and lost 35 lbs from never eating, and I wasn't heavy to begin w/. Now I have 2 and am going thru it again--feeling stressed, overwhelmed, etc. Now, though, I know--it's the 1 yr old. They are so cute, so cuddly, so freaking demanding. My 4 y/o is a easy peasy dreamboat in comparison, but of course he isn't really, he's 4 w/ a whole different set of demands of his own.

IIRC 2.5 was the turning point for DS1--stopped night nursing, started sleeping better, could communicate, could walk w/o help for cripe's sake. So it will get better. And I think it was always hard and always will be, but what an important job, right?

Hugs and peace to all of us!


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## RunAround (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm baaaack.







Like you are doing now, I started going to sleep when the baby went to sleep a few nights each week. I did not like giving up my evenings decompressing from the day, but sleep became a huge priority because I was seriously starting to crack from the disruption in sleep. I dealt great with sleep deprivation for many years right up until...I didn't. Hang in there!


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

YES. I am so glad to see someone say this. It is soooo hard to be the adult children of this generation of... well... children.

Sorry OP, I have no wisdom for you other than taking it one day at a time. That's what I do and it makes it [somewhat] easier.

Also, having a sense of humor... I laugh at nearly everything now and that helps alot.


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## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
Just thinking out loud......

a) more kids under the age of 5 died

b) parents exerted more parental control, keeping strict order

c) the kids did chores, lots of them

d) before electric lights.. going to bed at dark was common and normal

e) mothers might have had more live in help, often the mother's youngest unmarried sister was sent for a time to help out the growing family .... also younger brothers might spend time at your farm until your boys were old enough to work the stock and do heavy labor

Life was hard work back then but it had fewer distractions. People didn't worry so much about happy. They worried about feeding everyone and keeping the land fertile.

Also people had a lot more kids because there wasn't any real birth control a long time ago, lol! People got up at the crack of dawn to start the chores too, and women went to bed long after dark...the older kids helped with the younger ones too.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Raising three teenagers at the same time was trying, but overall I didn't think parenting was that hard. I always wanted kids since I was child and was thrilled to have three in 4 years. I would have had more if my dh agreed. He worked out of town a lot and was drunk a lot of the time, but at least he held job and helped with kids when he was home and sober. My family and friends were very supportive, but had their own lives and kids too. I was lucky to stay home with them when they were little and we didn't have a lot of money, which made our lives a little simpler in some ways. They were all wonderful sleepers, slept through the night by 2 months old and were good nappers - that helped immensely. I also had lot of friends who stayed home, so besides each other, my kids had lots of playmates. I feel for the moms who have to work and who struggle with high needs - that must be tough.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

OP, I'm there with you.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

to Mamas who are finding the journey hard.

When the little people are little you are new to the job, you are learning everything on the job and trying to work out a new way forward every day.

This is not the easiest thing to do and having no-one there to walk alongside nudging you or your children in a tried and tested direction makes it lonely. You are reinventing the wheel and the only guides you have are probably right here at MDC.

I have four and I am revisiting the phases of my first two with the second two almost all the time with a bit of personality craziness added in but I am relatively sure of this path.

At the other end of the family I am walking on an unknown path with my very nearly 16yo and that has its challenges just as it did when he was born and I had no idea where I was going other than that he needed a boob in his mouth and to be held close.

The first few years are very intense and everyone is very need-y of you and your time. As they grow older they are still needy but a lot more self sufficient and you see the path become less stony and more even in many ways.

Lean on people if you can and try to find something beautiful to look at or something to make you smile every day.

Oh and don't come to my house to see how I don't do much cleaning or keep the floor clear to walk on and several rooms look like the floor is made of t-shirts and trousers......







:


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## AVeryGoodYear (Mar 31, 2009)

Funny, my husband says this all the time as well. But when I think about how hard things are, I also look at my baby and realize how absolutely in love with her I am, and how I'd do anything to keep her safe. I think THAT is what keeps us going -- our innate, motherly refusal to harm our young. We don't have to like what they do all the time, we just have not to hurt them no matter how angry or frustrated we might be.


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## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

You just need to dance like a wild maniac more often. It's good for the soul, and sanity.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

In my experience, it hasn't gotten easier as DD grows up. It's just gotten to be a different kind of hard.

Sometimes I'll say to my sister (mother of 2 grown boys; grandmother to 2 little boys), "why do people do this?" Her reply is always, "beats me."


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I've also found it hard at times. I can understand the reasons behind having ONE child (by the time you really know what you're getting into, it's too late!-jk-lol!)- but I sometimes have a tough time understanding why anyone chooses to have more. I don't mean that to sound awful-- my dd was dearly wanted, I went through corrective surgery and bedrest to have her, and dh and I are absolutely in love with her. But, in order to be the kind of mother I want to be (to the specific kind of child that I have) has been a lot of work! She's 3.5yo and only now occasionally sleeping through the night,, not quite done self-weaning, and very sensitive. I honestly feel like it would be unfair to her, to dh, and to myself to have another child-- we're just now finally starting to ALL get our needs met! That said- the days that we spend with friends all day, or when my parents come to stay, I do think of how much easier it could be to have more children if we had more support nearby. Hang in there, mama-- I hope you can find the support we all need.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
You wanna know how I do it? I don't have expectations. If I need to cancel on everything I wanted to do today then I do.

Me too! When I start breaking down and freaking out because it seems like everything is falling apart, I know that I am doing this because I (or something/someone) failed to meet my own expectations! If I expect things to go smoothly and it doesn't, I get let down. If I expect neither a positive or a negative, I can deal with the outcome of a situation much better. It helps me to "go with it" better, which I think is the secret to being a happy (or at least sane) mother.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
I've also found it hard at times. I can understand the reasons behind having ONE child (by the time you really know what you're getting into, it's too late!-jk-lol!)- but I sometimes have a tough time understanding why anyone chooses to have more. I don't mean that to sound awful-- my dd was dearly wanted, I went through corrective surgery and bedrest to have her, and dh and I are absolutely in love with her. But, in order to be the kind of mother I want to be (to the specific kind of child that I have) has been a lot of work! She's 3.5yo and only now occasionally sleeping through the night,, not quite done self-weaning, and very sensitive. I honestly feel like it would be unfair to her, to dh, and to myself to have another child-- we're just now finally starting to ALL get our needs met! That said- the days that we spend with friends all day, or when my parents come to stay, I do think of how much easier it could be to have more children if we had more support nearby. Hang in there, mama-- I hope you can find the support we all need.

I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one. Sometimes just to rub salt in the wound, I lurk on the moms of only children thread







. I know that is a little twisted and unhealthy though. Anyway, I miss our happy little family of three and a lot of the issues I have are because I feel really guilty that my very high needs baby is keeping me from being the mother I want to be to my 3 year old and honestly the mother she deserves. I've made my bed though, and I am trying hard to make the best of it. I am sure one day soon when things settle down (and I get some much needed sleep) that I will be really happy with my decision and the regrets will fade away.


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## youngwife (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I don't think parenting is hard. I think the modern world today is hard, and that makes parenting hard.

Not so much the loss of the village, but the loss of extended family and the isolation most of us have around us. I think this magnifies everything negative, and things seem harder to cope with because we are so alone.

I'm not a village girl, but darn I sure wouldn't mind some active grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. We've got no one. We drew the crappy uninvolved me me me baby boomer parents. They're out finding themselves....

Still.

Very insightful!









For me, one was hard, two scared me to death. And parenting is hard work. And it is sooo much more than wiping noses and hineys! Because it pulls us away from ourselves, *IF* we are doing it well.









Hang in there, Momma! Your investment will return a huge reward one day! My first investment of myself is now 15 years old, and she is one of my closest friends!









Blessings,

Rebecca


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Just wanted to mention, I've been reading the book _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ which was recommended elsewhere on MDC. The author says that in hunter-gatherer societies, the typical child spacing is 4 years because it is just TOO hard to carry around a baby plus a toddler when you are nomadic. He says this spacing is strictly maintained by "a combination of lactational amenorrhea, sexual abstinence, abortion, and infanticide." So for people who live in the way that humans lived for most of our species' existence, two closely spaced children are so hard that they are willing to go to pretty extreme lengths to keep the spacing wider. Only in farming cultures, which require less migration, do birth intervals go down to two years; but then there is a "village."


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
Whenever I start to feel less of a supermom than the have a dozen kids, homeschool, make your own laundry soap moms (Michelle Dugger, I am looking at you here!) I remind myself that I have only been doing this for ten months. Moms who have it more together tend to have YEARS of experience on me. They have routines and systems in place while I am still muddling through and still learning the hard way.

If you looked at other career you would naturally expect the person with 20 years of experience to be more comfortable, relaxed and productive than the one who has only been doing it for a few months. I don't know why as a society we believe that mothers should have everything figured out as soon as their first baby emerges from the womb.

And I definitely agree that the demands of our modern day life are a lot greater. Moms today are working a full-time job, picking the kids up at daycare, running to soccer practice, violin lessons and tai kwon do, nursing, picking up the dry cleaning, getting the oil changed, buying the groceries, cooking dinner, cleaning the house, etc., etc., etc. June Cleaver just had to figure out what pearls to wear while she vaccuumed.









thank you! This made a lot of sense to me.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

They are not worried about doing it perfectly.

The older your kids get the easier because you get a system. You also can get them to help. It is part of life folding clothes, cooking, et.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Just wanted to mention, I've been reading the book _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ which was recommended elsewhere on MDC. The author says that in hunter-gatherer societies, the typical child spacing is 4 years because it is just TOO hard to carry around a baby plus a toddler when you are nomadic. He says this spacing is strictly maintained by "a combination of lactational amenorrhea, sexual abstinence, abortion, and infanticide." So for people who live in the way that humans lived for most of our species' existence, two closely spaced children are so hard that they are willing to go to pretty extreme lengths to keep the spacing wider. Only in farming cultures, which require less migration, do birth intervals go down to two years; but then there is a "village."

Thats so sad about how they had to achieve it at times, but having an almost 3 year gap between my kids, I can see how a 4 year minimum gap would be pretty much a necessity for them.

Looks like that book is a DVD too, which might be more my speed at this point. I am too brain dead to read most of the time.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
They are not worried about doing it perfectly.

I'll be the first to admit that I am a bit of an overachiever and put too much pressure on myself at times, but in this case I am really just struggling to meet everyones basic needs, mine included, which is why I am so in awe of those who can go beyond that. I'd settle for good enough at this point.


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## joyfulgrrrl (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
I will say, having been single for the majority of my pregnancy and time parenting, that you just can't do it all. The problem is that sometimes we build up in our heads taht we have to do it all....I know I thought so.

The first year of ym ds's life, I worked full time (7-3), went to school full time (online and at night after he went to bed), cloth diapered, made my own baby food from scratch, exclusively breastfed, pumped a zillion times a day, did all the laundry on a strict schedule, coslept/never let him CIO even if it took me three hours to put him to sleep, took him on outings 2-3x a week, always had him completely matching from hat to sneakers, in brand name clothes that i scoured craigslist and consignment stores for in my "free time." My friends were amazed.

what they didn't know (although eventually it became apparent) is that i became severly underweight (85 lbs) from the stress, my hair started falling out, and by the end of the year i was not entirely the parent i wanted to be, because I had become so sleep deprived I was no longer myself.\

If I could do ti over again i would cut myself a break. i think that's what you should do. you don't see the other side of those homeschooling-mother-of-five-homemaker-extraordinaires. it may not eb going as well as it seems to be.

I really mean that - best post ever.

When I had my first, I was in law school, BF'd, pumped, did everything 'right'. I never asked for help, and I ended up in a very bad place, seeing a psychiatrist, on anti-depressants. I made myself sick being perfect.

Now sometimes the youngest cries for a moment longer than I'd like her to, because I'm with teh 2 y.o. and I don't sweat it as much. I don't feel guilty asking my older kids to help. They SHOULD be helping with the little ones, that's how it's always been, and it sure is teaching them a LOT. My 10 year old knows how to change a prefold and wash diapers, and she knows how to properly supervise the 2 y.o. in the tub. The 13 year old knows how to cook a variety of meals, and goes to the corner store if I've forgotten something, and also babysits the LO's (and my babe is 5 weeks old) if I have to run to the bank or some other short errand.

My cousin offered to come over and clean my house, and I was totally wanting to say 'no' because I didn't want to take advantage of her. But she ASKED to help - and I said yes. I know when I offer to help someone in that way, I am disappointed when they turn me down. I want to help, and others want to help, and it makes them feel good.

Even my mom, who is completely self-centered and NEVER calls to see if she can help - she has babysat, I've had her pick up ODD at school when I was running late, and my EX-HUSBAND help me out with the LO's -he has offered to drive ODD to soccer (she's in a big time soccer program and it's a huge commitment for driving) - and I've taken him up on it, repeatedly. And I don't sweat it that I'm not at all of ODDs practices and games and that I paid the 40 bucks to avoid doing volunteer work for the team. Nobody really expects me to do this stuff either, I'm the mom with the LO's and they totally understand. And I have lots of volunteers to hold the wee baby at games - these moms can't get enough of her.

Anyway, long-winded way of saying, I loved that post, we need to give ourselves permission to share the joy of our children with others, and to give them the joy as well of helping - then they can say, "Yes, I spend a lot of time with my grandchild/niece/nephew/whatever". I love it that I haven gotten to pick up my niece and nephew at their daycare, and that they know me well - I get to be their favourite auntie, and it's quite an honour.


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## joyfulgrrrl (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one. Sometimes just to rub salt in the wound, I lurk on the moms of only children thread







. I know that is a little twisted and unhealthy though. Anyway, I miss our happy little family of three and a lot of the issues I have are because I feel really guilty that my very high needs baby is keeping me from being the mother I want to be to my 3 year old and honestly the mother she deserves. I've made my bed though, and I am trying hard to make the best of it. I am sure one day soon when things settle down (and I get some much needed sleep) that I will be really happy with my decision and the regrets will fade away.

That was really honest, thanks for sharing. I think we often gloss over the challenges we are facing (I know I do) and I really appreciate







your post.


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## joyfulgrrrl (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
FWIW...ds1 is 16. For a lot of years, I'd have laughed - I did laugh - at the idea that it goes by so fast (and that was despite missing so much, because I was a WOHM, who desperately wanted to be a SAHM). And, now he's 16. He's got a serious girlfriend. He's talking about getting a drivers license and moving out in "a couple of years". He's an Outdoor School counselor, and goes away for 3-5 days at a time for extracurricular activities.

And...it went by _so_ fast. I can't even begin to believe how fast.

You're so right. My eldest is 13, and I have to drag him out for walks with me and the dog so I can find out what's going on in his life. We're still incredibly close, and he does still talk to me, thank God, but we just registered him for grade 9 and I thought, "how in the hell did THAT happen?" He graduates high school in just 4 years. It blows my mind. I frequently think now, that it is only a few more years left where I get to see him all the time, hug him whenever I want, and check on him to make sure he's really asleep and not reading. Then I go and kiss him goodnight again


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## foxtrot (Jan 27, 2008)

Riverscout, you are the only person I've "met" who feels the way I do. I hope you return to read this. Every day I think "what the hell was I thinking having a 2nd child". We were SO happy as a family of 3. And here is the worst thing. When we had DS (our first) we had already decided we only wanted one. We were only going to have one. That was the plan. And then DS wanted a sibling and I felt bad and because we are older parents (I was 36 when I had him) I felt terrible about leaving him alone in the world without a sibling. I have a sibling and I love my sister. So we thought we could do it again. I really did think I could do it again. I was excited to do it again. Until DD came along and screamed for the first 3 months and is incredibly demanding and well, it's all just too hard to describe.

I cry every day about all the things that have had to be put on the back burner for 6 year old DS because it's just too hard to do with a toddler. We could be doing "big boy" stuff and more grown up family stuff, but instead we have naps we have to be home for.

DD is so difficult that DS who is an angel has been neglected for 19 months now. Thank goodness he goes to all day kindergarten so at least he gets some interaction with friends and teachers. The first 10 months of DD's life he had to fend for himself and watched way too much tv. I still can't look back on that 10 months without feeling sick to my stomach (literally, I do feel sick to my stomach). Oh, and that was after the 9 months I was sick while I was pregnant. He watched a lot of tv that 9 months as well. I see what he has lost and it kills me. He has a mom that is so sleep deprived that I'm not as engaged with him as I want to be. I'm grumpy and yell way more that I ever did because I'm so tired. It's awful what has happened to his life.

And then people tell me "this is just a short blip in time in his life". Um, no, so far it's been 28 months of his life (9 months of me being sick and pregnant and 19 months of DD's life) which is a huge percentage of the time he's been alive. And I don't see DD sleeping any time soon so this "short blip" is going to be going on for a lot longer. Oh, and I asked him last night if he remembered life before DD and he said "no". I cried. The only mom he knows is the mom I am now. He cannot remember the happy, fun, rested, energetic, hopeful mom I used to be. All he knows is this. And that is unbearable to think about.

So you are not alone in feeling the way you do about a 2nd child. It made my life exponentially harder as a mom. And mine are widely spaced so that didn't even help things. Had I known then what I know now I would not have had DD. I love her, but... Life was good. Life was not so freaking hard. Now it is just hard, hard, hard and I don't see that changing.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one. Sometimes just to rub salt in the wound, I lurk on the moms of only children thread







. I know that is a little twisted and unhealthy though. Anyway, I miss our happy little family of three and a lot of the issues I have are because I feel really guilty that my very high needs baby is keeping me from being the mother I want to be to my 3 year old and honestly the mother she deserves. I've made my bed though, and I am trying hard to make the best of it. I am sure one day soon when things settle down (and I get some much needed sleep) that I will be really happy with my decision and the regrets will fade away.


Well honestly I cant imagine just having 1 child and I am person who never wanted any when I was younger. My sister has 1 and my neice is awesome. I just think it depends on the person. I'm not jealous of people with less children than me because I remember 2-3 kids as chaotic as 5...I dont remember having just 1 being that easy either though but I was also alone with her because my husband was in afghanistan and left when she was only 5 days old. Kids arent easy...the important thing to remember is that you matter too as a person. If you are giving everything you have to everyone else then there isnt any time for you, and that isn't healthy either.








Most of us with a lot of kids dont have any profound secrets, we just deal with chaos better lol


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
They are not worried about doing it perfectly.

My attempts to be a perfect parent are the worst thing I do to my kids. The more I get stressed out over every little mistake, error in judgment, etc., the more they suffer. I used to be able to relax more (one of my mom's friends once told me I'd be a great mom, because I didn't "sweat the small stuff"). I'm not sure where I lost it, but I need it back. It's so crucial to be able to let go of trying to/thinking I should do _everything_ and do it well.


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## RollerCoasterMama (Jul 22, 2008)

As much as I want a second (or third) child and I hate that we can't do it financially...I know that my life can't handle it right now. For all of the reasons you and everyone else said. If I could be SAHM, then maybe. But I'm the primary income. And even if we ever become equal partners financially, I'll always be working. So I focus on what I can deal with. We have NO support system locally.

FWIW, my mom (worked out of the home full time while raising three) told me once that going from 1-2 was a challenge since my brother and I are only 18 months apart (and he was very high needs + nocturnal!) but going from 2-3 was the biggest shock to the system. There were suddenly more kids than hands! She told me that she was at the mall shopping one day and saw a little umbrella stroller on display. She picked up my baby sister, popped her into and asked the speechless sales guy how much it cost as she was buckling in the baby. He tried to say THAT one wasn't for sale, but the look that clearly said "SHUT UP I'M BUYING THIS ONE" took care of that.

Another FWIW...even Michelle Duggar struggled before she A) implmented some order and B) the kids got old enough to help out with the younger ones. I saw an interview with her once discussing how insane things were when they had the first 4 or 5 all under 5 years old I think (there were some twins in there). She realized that she needed some structure or no one would make it out alive! (Not her words of course!)

Even supermoms need time to learn the ropes!!

ps. I recently hired a godsend of a woman to do the deep cleaning every other week. Best thing ever!!!!!! We can destroy the house 2 days after she's gone, but each time I do the mad-dash to pick up before she comes, it takes less time. She even organized my pantry last time!!!! Just having that one thing I don't have to feel guilty about is worth every penny!!


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh I hear you. I have rough days, better days, and a spattering of great days. But just about every day I take a deep breath and think "here goes" as I get out of bed.

Sleep makes a HUGE difference. My kids all sleep through the night (even the 4 month old) most nights (save for the occasional illness or bad dream). And I do not do anything besides raise my kids (and clean the house, make meals, etc). I don't work outside the home, I don't organize food drives or fundraisers, I don't knit or sew clothes or can my own vegetables. I'd love to do all those things one day, but they are just not possible for me at this point if I want to have the energy for my kids.

I think the isolation and demands of modern parenthood make it even harder. Occasionally I think about all my friends from high school and college who are spread out across the country who are all doing the same thing as me, day in and day out. Just far away. Dealing with vomit and tantrums and boredom all at the same moments. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all gather in the same places, while our kids nap or play to make dinner or sew clothes or whatever?


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one.
At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby. IMO, I'm a horrible mother. Between introversion, dislike of being outside, & depression, I find myself not doing nearly as much with my kids as I'd like. Atm, the older two are playing a computer game together (and arguing a bit), the baby is asleep on my back where I put him so I could get 2 days worth of dishes & 2 weeks worth or laundry done, & I'm sitting here using the computer instead of dragging my older kids off the computer for a walk or to learn to ride bikes or something. This is pretty much the way most of our days go. I like to think that when we get a car and more money, that I'd take them more places, but I think the long bus trip & cost of things are just excuses.

And seeing all typed out, I wonder what kind of special insanity I have that is making me try to convince dh that we should have "just one more" in a couple years; that makes me literally tear up at the thought of never having another baby. I think the insanity is that I love babies & now I've figured out what I'm doing (sorry, ds1!) I'm a great mom...for a baby.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby. IMO, I'm a horrible mother. Between introversion, dislike of being outside, & depression, I find myself not doing nearly as much with my kids as I'd like. Atm, the older two are playing a computer game together (and arguing a bit), the baby is asleep on my back where I put him so I could get 2 days worth of dishes & 2 weeks worth or laundry done, & I'm sitting here using the computer instead of dragging my older kids off the computer for a walk or to learn to ride bikes or something. This is pretty much the way most of our days go. I like to think that when we get a car and more money, that I'd take them more places, but I think the long bus trip & cost of things are just excuses.

And seeing all typed out, I wonder what kind of special insanity I have that is making me try to convince dh that we should have "just one more" in a couple years; that makes me literally tear up at the thought of never having another baby. I think the insanity is that I love babies & now I've figured out what I'm doing (sorry, ds1!) I'm a great mom...for a baby.

How about this...you have another and keep them till they are between one or two years old and then pass them off to me, okay?







If I could give birth to a 18 month old, I might have another but I could really do without the whole baby stage.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
Riverscout, you are the only person I've "met" who feels the way I do. I hope you return to read this. Every day I think "what the hell was I thinking having a 2nd child". We were SO happy as a family of 3. And here is the worst thing. When we had DS (our first) we had already decided we only wanted one. We were only going to have one. That was the plan. And then DS wanted a sibling and I felt bad and because we are older parents (I was 36 when I had him) I felt terrible about leaving him alone in the world without a sibling. I have a sibling and I love my sister. So we thought we could do it again. I really did think I could do it again. I was excited to do it again. Until DD came along and screamed for the first 3 months and is incredibly demanding and well, it's all just too hard to describe.

I cry every day about all the things that have had to be put on the back burner for 6 year old DS because it's just too hard to do with a toddler. We could be doing "big boy" stuff and more grown up family stuff, but instead we have naps we have to be home for.

DD is so difficult that DS who is an angel has been neglected for 19 months now. Thank goodness he goes to all day kindergarten so at least he gets some interaction with friends and teachers. The first 10 months of DD's life he had to fend for himself and watched way too much tv. I still can't look back on that 10 months without feeling sick to my stomach (literally, I do feel sick to my stomach). Oh, and that was after the 9 months I was sick while I was pregnant. He watched a lot of tv that 9 months as well. I see what he has lost and it kills me. He has a mom that is so sleep deprived that I'm not as engaged with him as I want to be. I'm grumpy and yell way more that I ever did because I'm so tired. It's awful what has happened to his life.

And then people tell me "this is just a short blip in time in his life". Um, no, so far it's been 28 months of his life (9 months of me being sick and pregnant and 19 months of DD's life) which is a huge percentage of the time he's been alive. And I don't see DD sleeping any time soon so this "short blip" is going to be going on for a lot longer. Oh, and I asked him last night if he remembered life before DD and he said "no". I cried. The only mom he knows is the mom I am now. He cannot remember the happy, fun, rested, energetic, hopeful mom I used to be. All he knows is this. And that is unbearable to think about.

So you are not alone in feeling the way you do about a 2nd child. It made my life exponentially harder as a mom. And mine are widely spaced so that didn't even help things. Had I known then what I know now I would not have had DD. I love her, but... Life was good. Life was not so freaking hard. Now it is just hard, hard, hard and I don't see that changing.

I can so relate to everything you said here. I think this one of those things that is great to talk about online because no one would be willing to admit it in real life.

I really feel like I am cheating my daughter and kind of resentful over the time I am missing with her and what she is missing out on. She watches so much tv now it makes me want to cry. I don't know what else to do with her when I have to get the baby down for a nap or put him to bed for the night.

I am seriously considering preschool for her in the fall. Originally, we weren't going to bother because the good ones are very expensive here and I figured 13 years of school plus possibly college after that is more than enough school. But now I think she could really use it. Beats sitting around here watching tv because I am busy with the baby or just too damn tired to do anything else.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby.

About a month or so ago, I ended up on a playground bench, sitting in the rain, crying and apologizing repeatedly to baby-under-construction for bringing him/her into the world with such a miserable person for a mother. I am SO tired and short-tempered and just plain sucking at almost every aspect of parenting. My kids eat pretty well, but I can't give myself many more kudos than that right now...

I'm really hoping that once I've recovered from this upcoming section, I'll find more energy...somewhere...


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

A







to Lisa and everyone else feeling less-than-stellar. Hang in there.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Boy, does this thread resonate.

DD won't be an only child, she just won't... for various reasons ranging from religion to family background I am GOING to have at LEAST one more baby (which is a far cry from the "I want a big family" I used to say). I _do_ still want a big family... but not with me as the mother, at least not the me I am now. My perfect ideal family contains a mother who isn't horrified by the idea of another pregnancy and childbirth, for one thing; a mother who can actually keep the house consistently tidy, and garden for more than a few weeks at a time, and remember to do stuff with the baby rather than letting it fend for itself as long as it's happy.

I feel stupid complaining, because a) I only have one, b) she's not a "hard" baby with any health problems or allergies or behavioral issues, and c) my family's pretty good. Mum drives me places pretty often, rings up to say hi, babysits if we ask (all of twice so far, but still). And most of the time I actually do feel fine- but it only takes twenty minutes of DD whining or interrupting an important task to make me feel "WHY did I DO this??"

So now I spend a good deal of time gloomily contemplating the thought of doing it again.







DD's newborn stage was actually manageable at the time - we took a deep breath and wanted to prove to each other that we were good parents, and just sort of dived in expecting the worst.







But now she's older and I have a bit more freedom, I look back and go "Yeah, actually, that did kinda suck", and the thought of voluntarily putting myself in that position again frankly scares me. What, leaky painful breasts again when DD has just stopped breastfeeding every twelve seconds? Sleepless nights again now she's finally sleeping through the night? Letting myself in for pelvic girdle pain again _while trying to chase a toddler_? Aargh!

It doesn't help that I don't get babylust. Never have. I get cooey around babies and love seeing them around town, but that doesn't translate to wanting to actually have one. I wish it did! Would make things so much easier. I feel like it would be OK if I suddenly _was_ pregnant, but the thought of deliberately doing it is just too scary - does that make any sense? I have these horrible thought that having one or two or three more babies will mean our family just gets gradually dingier and more depressed, with me snapping at DH and children squabbling on a dirty kitchen floor - you know? I think it doesn't help that in my (big) family Mum and Dad _did_ argue a lot while I was growing up, and the house always _was_ messy and so on.









But then, I have a great relationship with my sisters and they were the best gift my parents could have given us. So there you go. Aargh, this is hard...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Our house was always messy, too. It makes it hard for me to keep things tidy, because the clutter seems normal to me...


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

I remember a little while after having my first, dh and I were sitting at the kitchen table and I burst into tears. He asked me why I was crying and I said "I was just thinking about having a second child- and it seems so horrible!"

Well, here I am pregnant with number three... my midwife told me at my last appointment that statistically, a woman is most likely to have a nervous breakdown after her third child. HA!

I guess what made the biggest difference for me was someone said "There is a difference between loving your children and loving motherhood". I realized I loved my kid and hated being a mother. Well, *not* being a mother wasn't an option; so I determined, no matter what, I was going to do whatever it took to love motherhood. To love my new role. Heck, I came around to love broccoli and spinach and I used to hate those!

I would say the way I changed my mindset was by being very intentional; by reading books by women who loved motherhood, by praying that God would put that love in my heart, by refusing to entertain those thoughts which would oppose my goal (not that I didn't have them, just that I refused to dwell on them at length). It worked... took maybe a year and a half.

I think having your husband and you do separate things all day, live in separate worlds (different careers or being a SAHM) has a lot to do with it. The Amish around us are so blessed that their husbands are AROUND. They work together as a team; they may have separate tasks but they are still close in proximity; dad takes the boys old enough to work with him; he's around for discipline issues so its not just mom's patience getting worn thin! I blame the industrial revolution and the mass shift of men out of the home more than my lack of having a village; so me and dh are really trying to work to reduce debt and expenses so between 4-5 years we can start our own family business that allows him the flexibility to have an equal role in time spent parenting (he is a homeopath by schooling, but in the rush to secure a house/life/etc didn't set up a practice and is working in natural product sales...). He doesn't expect me (or at this point have confidence that I will have the emotional fortitude to!) homeschool alone; he plans to be just as much of a teacher as me. Phew. Otherwise I'd send them to school for sure!


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
I remember a little while after having my first, dh and I were sitting at the kitchen table and I burst into tears. He asked me why I was crying and I said "I was just thinking about having a second child- and it seems so horrible!"

Well, here I am pregnant with number three... my midwife told me at my last appointment that statistically, a woman is most likely to have a nervous breakdown after her third child. HA!

I guess what made the biggest difference for me was someone said "There is a difference between loving your children and loving motherhood". I realized I loved my kid and hated being a mother. Well, *not* being a mother wasn't an option; so I determined, no matter what, I was going to do whatever it took to love motherhood. To love my new role. Heck, I came around to love broccoli and spinach and I used to hate those!

I would say the way I changed my mindset was by being very intentional; by reading books by women who loved motherhood, by praying that God would put that love in my heart, by refusing to entertain those thoughts which would oppose my goal (not that I didn't have them, just that I refused to dwell on them at length). It worked... took maybe a year and a half.

I think having your husband and you do separate things all day, live in separate worlds (different careers or being a SAHM) has a lot to do with it. The Amish around us are so blessed that their husbands are AROUND. They work together as a team; they may have separate tasks but they are still close in proximity; dad takes the boys old enough to work with him; he's around for discipline issues so its not just mom's patience getting worn thin! I blame the industrial revolution and the mass shift of men out of the home more than my lack of having a village; so me and dh are really trying to work to reduce debt and expenses so between 4-5 years we can start our own family business that allows him the flexibility to have an equal role in time spent parenting (he is a homeopath by schooling, but in the rush to secure a house/life/etc didn't set up a practice and is working in natural product sales...). He doesn't expect me (or at this point have confidence that I will have the emotional fortitude to!) homeschool alone; he plans to be just as much of a teacher as me. Phew. Otherwise I'd send them to school for sure!

Wow. What a coincidence. You posted a couple of the exact things that I was thinking about last night...the power of positive thinking and wishing we could live more simply and communally like the Amish. I was actually daydreaming about running off and joining them, but I don't think they take random walk-ins off the street.









Anyway, I really like the distinction you made about loving your kids but not loving motherhood. I would love to know what the books were that you read to help you out with that.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

momma_unlimited: Thanks for your post... can you tell me more about the concrete ways you changed your mindset? When I was really freaking out earlier in the year about the thought of baby number two (mostly due to birth trauma), I gave myself until December to not be pregnant. The idea was I'd try to spend the year adjusting to the thought of baby number two so that we could TTC in December. It was good for a while - gave me some breathing space - but well, now it's June and I'm as freaked out as ever. At the risk of giving TMI, I can't see myself forcing myself to do the deed that results in pregnancy with the deliberate intention of getting pregnant... not in a fuzzy-wuzzy way but in a "this could actually be dooming me to another pregnancy and birth" way. If that makes sense. I don't get how people _do_ that. (DD was neither planned nor unplanned, but then I hadn't had a baby before!)

I definitely get the "loving your children" vs "loving motherhood" thing. The funny thing is, I always thought I wanted to be a mother - I would get ridiculously cooey over babies, my mother was a SAHM, I was never a career girl, motherhood was in my plans for as long as I could remember. And now, when I hear about someone being pregnant, it's a 50-50 tossup as to whether my reaction is an (inward!) cynical "Heh" mixed with faint awe at their bravery and a desire to hit them over the head with a brick, or a spontaneous "Awww, how lovely!" It's very bizarre.

I also completely agree about the husband thing.







DH is just starting to do some web design on the side with the long-term goal of coming home to work. Unfortunately that means that right now he's spending even less time with us... he was working even while we were watching dinner tonight.







And we've both been a bit stressed lately and short with each other and the baby - she was being pesky tonight and he got cross, which started me on a whole spiralling chain of thought about how much angrier we'd be with more babies and more mess around, and how it wasn't fair that he "got" to be cross with the baby after only a few hours when I had her all day and wasn't "allowed" to be cross with her for eight hours straight... arrgh.

Storm Bride: I hear ya. I'm still working on "seeing" the mess. I do feel vaguely irritable when things are cluttered or dirty, it just doesn't always rise to the conscious mind that I should do something about it! On the other hand, not wanting my house to end up like Mum's is good incentive.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I totally get the idea of positive thinking to help us come to terms with the situations that we're already in, but I just felt like I couldn't read again and not just make a little note that I think that is different from using positive thinking to try to convince yourself to do something you don't want to do. If someone feels that having another child would be extremely stressful or damaging to the relationships already within the family, then I would urge them to spend equal time really looking at the benefits of raising a single child (rather than solely trying to "get over" their fears about having another- which may be legitimate) I know that once we're in, we're in it for the long haul and need to try to make peace and find happiness in whatever situation we choose. I just think that it's good for people to really think long and hard before making that decision, realizing that the only "right" choice is the one that is best for your individual family (regardless of societal expectations). I feel that each planned child should be loved and desperately wanted and anticipated with joy and hope (and, of course, the normal dose of worrying!) I would not want to go into another pregnancy without feeling that way.


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## ChampagneBlossom (Feb 5, 2009)

I thought this many times when DS was an infant. And uh, now that he's two, I have baby fever again. I don't *logically* want to add another child to the family, but biological urges are strong.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

Anyway, I really like the distinction you made about loving your kids but not loving motherhood. I would love to know what the books were that you read to help you out with that.
Well, I liked Nancy Campbell... however she is rather extreme and fundamentalist Christian (a quiver-full advocate). I certainly would not describe myself as quiverful, we practice NFP and I plan to take at least 4 years off after my next baby. We want a biggish family, mostly I think because we want to backlash against the extreme individualism we see in the world; we believe close relationships and family are important (though not at the risk of just popping kids out so fast you treat them like posessions or can't care for them individually...). I like Waldorf inspired books on raising children because they really give you the flavor of wonder and reverence for motherhood and early childhood... I also like Steiner philosophy on the role of the will and how to direct it so that feelings and thoughts assist rather than sabotage. On another note I really liked Spirit Babies which is written by a medium who can communicate with unborn children. It was really meaningful to me because I have felt the "presence" of my last two before they were born. Also liked Primal Mothering by Hygeia Halfmoon. I guess I like all the extreme people from both right and left; helps me determine where I feel comfortable.

Quote:

I just think that it's good for people to really think long and hard before making that decision, realizing that the only "right" choice is the one that is best for your individual family (regardless of societal expectations).
I really agree with you here. I guess I just sort of know it's our destiny to have a handful of kids- when I first read the Psalm that says "your wife will be like a fruitful vine within the very center of your home, your children like olive plants all around your table" I just _knew_ this was an image of what our life would look like. So when my feelings are in opposition to what I sense to be my true path, I try to work on bringing them into line with my soul feeling. But, I get disgusted at the people having kids just to fulfill biological urges without any committment to be true guides to their kids or grow through the inconveniences of it all; and I get equally disgusted with the full-quiverers who are miserable but believe "it's the right thing to do" and make motherhood a martyrdom. (Edit- I certainly don't think all full-quiver moms feel that way- but I've met some who do!)


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