# Touchy subject about Grandma and toddler...(supporT only please, sorry so long)



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I'm trying to find a way to delicately pass the hint that I'd rather my mom not have a hand in potty training my kid, that it's something I'd prefer to handle on my own. It's such a hard subject.

My kid will be three in June, and he's trained at home as long as he's naked from the bottom down. Right now, we are working on adding clothing to our little arrangment, on getting him to ask me when he has to go (he just drops everything, runs to his potty and sits down to pee right now..) when he we are in public.

I am working on sewing him boxers so that he can have a measure of "freedom" naked feeling to get him to learn to hold it in clothing and pull his clothing up and down when he goes. (Anything remotely like a diaper or a cloth diaper he thinks it's ok to pee in. somebody told me some little boxers may alllow him to feel naked enough want to pee in the potty.)

This is difficult for me to describe. But ever since I was very young and my mom ever babysat some one's baby, I got a .....feeling....that I didn't like. It's so difficult to describe. Maybe it's all in my mind. For a long time after I had my kid, I hoped it was. she just seems to.......eager(?) about diaper changes. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. She's kinda touchy-feely. Not in a touching kind of way but....i don't know.

I tried to ignore it, and I have to admit that my unrelenting bad feelings about her keeping my child is a main reason why I quite my job a couple months ago and am now a sahm again.

I don't let her keep him often anymore, like maybe, once every two weeks, or so. I thought this was something I could feel comfortable with.

But now, she bought a potty for my kid. All those awful vague, unspecific feelings I have come back. I just don't want her to be involved at all in potty training. My husand and I allow my kiddo to be as "in charge" of his on privates as is possible for his age. They are his, and whatever he can handle, we allow him to do himself in as much privacy as possible. (Adjust himself on his potty chair "tuck himself" down there so he won't pee all over the floor, etc...)

And it's very hard and almost ridiculous for me to talk about the things that my mom does...but let's just say she's extremely (nicely, not demanding) dictating and "in charge" of the child's body. Like...overly "helpful"? To the point where it's just weird.

And my husband feels just as uncomfortable about it as I do, it's very difficult for both of us to put into words.

But..I'll try.

We talked about it, one of the things that bothers us
1) when she holds the kids, she puts her hand in their crotches a lot.
2) our kid does spend some time in disposibles. (







: I'm pregnant, and working hard on sewing his diapers..) when it disposables, you can feel the gel in the diaper if the kid has wet. My mom knows this. But she always like to check inside of the diaper, putting her finger near the privates to check for wetness. It's completely unecessary and makes me cringe.
3) to me, i try to reserve my kids privacy. i don't like asking my kid if he's wet right there in front of everyone. she does this (even when I'm there with him) and seems kind of obsessed with the subject. She'll ask, and 5 mins later, she'll ask again. Until I'm like, "i got it, ma!"
4)She likes to take over the "diaper operations" even when me or my husband is there. I always thought this was inappropriate. I mean, sure play with the kid, but don't assume our parental duties upon yourself in our presence.
5) one time she did something that made me EXTREMELY UPSET. (this was when i decided to quit my job and stay at home) she is always harping on me about wiping my kid when changing him...it's not something I always do, usually but not always. So i'm changing him, and before I could even blink an eye good, she just came over there and wiped his privates, like she was GOING to do it whether I wanted her to or not. She was about to change his diaper, I told her, that's ok, I got it. And that's when she does this with the cloth. I'm like I GOT IT!! That one made me furious.

I don't know, it would tear my family apart if I voiced any of these things, and I want to keep quiet about it. and I think, maybe I'm being petty and overly sensitive.

But (with the exception of my mil) i would feel no such hesitation with anyone else in my family keeping my little one. Including my dad. But, my dad is so dependant on my mom to help him whent he grandkids come over. He'd want her help if I asked him specifically to be "in charge" of my little one whenever he visits. and he also would take strong offense at my hesitations about my mom.

I feel like i can't say anything.
but I don't want my mom involved with potty training.

sometimes i need some one to keep my little one for a little while when i have a doctor's appointment. I don't know what i'm going to do when I go into labor. (I have placenta previa right now, so i don't know if i'll end up having to have a c-section or not.)

I have no other family living in town. Maybe i should start looking for a babysitter just for the days when i have a doctor's appointment.









but on the other hand, my kid does love my mom a lot, and asks for her. he sometimes seems more attached to her than to me. but i have also read up on how "people" operate, and how they get kids (my kid is only almost 3) to really fall in love with them, and often times people like that are well liked by young kids who don't know any better yet.

I'm not sure what to do...


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

- you've got to find the place that feels right - don't ignore the feeling.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It is clear your feelings on this are very strong. I don't think you should ignore them or allow yourself to minimize them.

Honestly, reading how uncomfortable her actions make you, it sounds to me like the only solution *for NOW* is that she doesn't keep him. Period.

If it were anyone but your mom that made you feel that creepy you wouldn't hesitate. You will never forgive yourself if something ever happened. Listen to the small voices.










-Angela


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

Your feelings are very legitimate. As moms, we have these feelings for a reason.

Only you know the best response to this situation because you grew up with her. Was your mom the same way with you when you were a kid or is this new behavior? My mom can be a bit like this too at times so I wonder if it is a generational thing. Actually, there are a lot of things that you have stated that sound very similar to my mom. A lot of people from older generations seem to want to be in control of everything and simply do not understand the concept of boundaries and giving kids the ability to set their own boundaries. You have to figure out whether or not you feel safe leaving your kid with her. Do you really think that she could/would do something like that? If there is any doubt at all, then you owe it to yourself to figure out a way to keep her out of the potty training loop and minimize your son's time with her. If your mom is anything like mine, telling her that she creeps you out would be the end of the world. You have to figure out a way to let her off nicely (if that is even possible). I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your mom so it is hard to give any advice on what approach to take. Just know that you are not crazy for having these feelings and it is perfectly okay to tell other people to keep their hands off of your child even if that perso is your mom.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Don't ignore your intuition, but don't alienate your mom either. I'd do the baby sitter thing, or maybe do a mothers day out thing and make the excuse be that you think he needs exposure to other kids. It could just be that you are being extremely sensitive because of the PG hormones (I know I for sure had many strange thoughts) or just stressed from the impending delivery.
I know you must be stressed, and I'm so sorry you are in this position!:confuse:
Hang in there!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I remember something else kind of petty...

my kid is having a language explosion, sometimes he pops up with sentences from out of nowhere (sometimes I can guage where he got his ideas from, sometimes I can't...)

So he did #2 in his diaper, and I'm cleaning him up, and out of the blue, clear as day, out of his usually muddled toddler speech, he says, "Are you washing my body mommy?"

I was taken aback. He'd spent a day with my mom about a day or two earlier, and he never EVER calls it that. It's not BAD or anything...but that's not something my husband or i have ever said to him. Nor is it something he learned from tv.

How do I KNOW this is from my mom?
Because, I try to call my kids parts what they are. He learned to say "penis". Then in migrated to "my nugget" (














which later more distinctly became "my naked". This came from me telling him (at home) yikes! you're naked!!! So he usually chats about "his naked" when he is naked.

I know my mom, she doesn't like "real words". She is a prude, and doesn't like the words stupid, or butt, or would lay over a die if anyone said penis or vulva to her. She replaces ALL those words with "body". So that's how I know he got that from her.

It just makes me...ponder....over how?....where?...under what circumstances was she "taking care" of him in which she had to correct him saying "my naked" into "my body".

And I also dont like her shaming him of the real words, or his own play words for his body. we don't shame over such things in this house, and i don't like him getting that idea.

but i still have that little voice in the back of my head screaming, "YOU'RE NITPICKING!" at me, so i don't know.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *library lady*
Was your mom the same way with you when you were a kid or is this new behavior?

Good question.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

wow, i had lots of responses when i was writing that second response.

But i've ALWAYS had those feelings with my mom even before i was pregnant. i wasn't pregnant when i decided that i was uncomfortable enough to be a sahm again.

i've had nieces and nephews from the time when i was 12 years old on up, and i've felt uncomfortable since then whenever she babysits. so i don't really think it's one of those pregnant things...i don't think.

but my husband is and has been as squigged out about it as i have been, but it's just so subtle that it's not something that you really "get" until something happens....like her buying a potty for him to keep at her house...before you kind of start to feel that "i don't like this" feeling...

it sickens me to even have to feel this way about my mom. We don't get along mainly because...

well, she seems to "need" my kid from what I gather. She has some extreme self esteem issues, and gets depressed when no one needs her. me and her fought constantly as i was a teenager and becoming more independant. i think she feels she needs to have little ones around her a lot to feel important. she needs to be mom. and she's not, I AM MOM. so we conflict over that a lot. so my relationship with her is not the greatest...


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

So, it's not that you're afraid she'll molest your DC. You think it's more of a control/familiarity issue?


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I don't know/don't think she'd molest him. I just want her to stop touching him and stop stressing over his body so much. I Just want her to back off a lot, and stop being such a helicopter. Ease up and chill out.

she starts being secretive and stuff when we are there, and i don't like it. why does she feel the need to take my kid in the bathroom and shut the door? I always go in there after her, and she's always doing something i don't really care for (and she knows it)..but never really anything in the realms of molestation. she sprays this chemical crap on his hair because she's very much anti-afro and my kid has a beautiful one that she's always trying to "control".

in general she tries to take over and do things her way especially in things we don't see eye to eye about. All of that adds to our not getting along very well.

but..i mean. i feel it's a seperate issue from the whole potty/diaper thing.

Even when I was 12 years old, and I didn't feel this whole "contest" with her over who's the real mom of my kid, I've ALWAYS felt weird when she kept other kids. Like she was so obsessed with diaper thing, cleaning them, and touching their crotch or something. I felt it with my first nephew. When I was REALLY young I had a baby cousin she kept sometimes. I think I vaguely remember feeling weird even back then, but my memories could be inaccurate on how I felt back when I was, say, 5.

but I definitely remember always feeling kind of weirded out when I was older and she kept my neice and my nephew. Especially my nephew.

So, while, I'm still trying to figure out if i'm justified feeling what I feel, this is not something new that just popped out of nowhere. It's just something that's magnified now that it's my own child. I feel even weirder about the potty training thing than just diapering. I think that's because I am really protective over whether or not she'd shame him for not using the potty, and I think she would. Control and shaming. It's a combination I don't like.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Please read your quotes below that I've selected from your posts, bolding mine:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
But ever since I was very young and my mom ever babysat some one's baby, *I got a .....feeling....that I didn't like.*


Quote:

To the point where *it's just weird.*

Quote:

*And my husband feels just as uncomfortable about it as I do,* it's very difficult for both of us to put into words.

Quote:

It's completely unecessary and *makes me cringe.*

Quote:

5) one time she did something that made me *EXTREMELY UPSET.* (this was when i decided to quit my job and stay at home) she is always harping on me about wiping my kid when changing him...it's not something I always do, usually but not always. So i'm changing him, and before I could even blink an eye good, she just came over there and wiped his privates, *like she was GOING to do it whether I wanted her to or not.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
*But i've ALWAYS had those feelings with my mom* even before i was pregnant. i wasn't pregnant when i decided that i was uncomfortable enough to be a sahm again.


Quote:

i've had nieces and nephews from the time when i was 12 years old on up, and *i've felt uncomfortable since then whenever she babysits.*

Quote:

*but my husband is and has been as squigged out about it as i have been*,
Having had those thoughts and written them down, could you forgive yourself if the unthinkable happened?

Until/unless something changes to make you feel more comfortable, I think there is no choice but to not leave your child alone with her. Perhaps you'd feel better about it when he's older and more self sufficient and more verbal. But right now, it is very clear that you feel that this is an UNSAFE situation for your child.

To put him in a situation that you feel is unsafe to keep family peace would be irresponsible at best.










Don't be afraid to listen to your feelings.

-Angela


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

At minimum, you and she have very different ideas about bodily integrity and the rights of other little humans. I'm not trying to trivialize this complaint, but did you read the thread here about if feet are private and gross? Otherwise sane people can have very different ideas about what's private and public, profane and sacred.
If that's the case, you could tell her that you have different ideas about potty training and diapers, and that all diapers and potty training are to be left to you, no holds barred, in order not to confuse the child.
If it's just a difference of opinion, that will work. If she's fufilling some desire of hers, it's not going to work.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Yes, I agree. Of course I have to hear crap because I never bring him over enough. Today I went over there with him to visit, I didn't leave. I feel more comfortable doing that. It won't be long before she'd be asking me to let him keep her. I just have to figure out a way to graciously handle that.

I think I'd once again be ok after he's reliably potty trained and completely self sufficient in that department. but just the whole potty-training time is something i'd rather not have her deal with.

you guys have given me much to think about, and I'll sleep on what i've worked out so far....


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## ipeabody (Jun 4, 2007)

I just wanted to mention the generational thing again, cause in many ways your mom sounds like my MIL. MIL wants to constantly change clothes and diapers. I hadn't thought of it as creepy, but more as annoying. When she's with ds I go through twice as many diapers and have tons of laundry. I thought it was cause she likes to have that interaction with him and to see him naked. (the whole cute naked baby bum thing). I have limited this by not sending changes of clothes, or very limited changes and only a limited number of diapers. But when she's at our house, it's like a fashion show. I also showed her how to test the diaper from the outside, but she still insists on putting her hand inside. My little guys is really spirited and screams at her (he is awesome at saying 'No') when she does this, and I remind her it's not necessary. However, that said, I know my MIL would never hurt my LO. If I ever had a 'feeling' that something could happen, I would not be so relaxed and would definitely limit alone time. I think you need to trust your intuition, but be open to generational and cultural differences. Telling the difference is the hard part. Good luck. You made me think about what I'm going to do when my little one starts to toilet train.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Wow, your mother has some serious boundary and control issues. You need to set some boundaries, and enforce them.

And if that can't happen, then you need to never leave him alone with her. Never.

I think your feelings are completely valid. Her behavior is creepy and extreemly disrespectful of both you and your DS.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok, I've got a little sleep and updated on responses and I think I've pinpointed exactly why I don't want her potty training him...

First Apricot, I think you hit on something when you say she'd get upset if she fulfills some sort of internal need from him. Well, I already know she feels her own little mental needs from my child, and that's why we already butt heads as much as we do. Exactlyl what needs she feeds from him in the diaper department, I can exactly say. I know that instead of enjoying a relationship with her grandkids (such as the way my dad does) she feels a need to mother them. And closely be on them like white on rice in regards to everything they do. I think my mom feels like she's not really good at anything else. And she feels she's good with kids and a good mother (which, I'd have to say, is her own opinion.







) And she needs to do what she's good at. Even if she's stepping on boundaries, stepping on the "real" mom's toes, and mothering and hovering far beyond what the child needs. I think this plays a major role in why she had trouble with her children when they are teens. Teenagers need mother in a totally different kind of way than a small child does, and this seems to be difficult for her to wrap her head around, and seems to be starting show itself now that my neice is a preteen. Backing off a bit (even now when I ask her to in reference to my child) is extremely difficult for her.

Which is another reason why we seem to butt heads. I'm the youngest and she treats me and my child totally different than she treats my two older sisters. She respects them far more and backs off (at least when they are present with their children) much more than she does with me. My oldest sister is very quiet and shy (moreso than me, I'd say...) and cured her issues with my parents by moving about an hour away from them on only seeing them and bringing her litle one around them occassionally.

My other sister is extremely assertive with herself. I've heard her firmly put my mom in her place on a few occassions so my mom has learned over the years to back the heck off where this sister is concerned.

I try to be more like my second sister, but she gets all huffy with me in a different way because she feels like she "can" because I'm only the baby. I've shown myself not to be nearly as independant as my other sisters over the past years, and I think she thinks it gives her right to "do what she's GONNA do!!" where me and my kid are concerned. I have to say that if it weren't for my relationship with my father, I probably wane my dealings with her down a lot more. I've had conversations with her and she's toned it down but still not quite enough. Any conversation I have with her is met with basically in the end "I"m going to do what I"m going to do, and I don't really care what you say. I"m a mother!"

I guess I don't want her potty training because she's not going to give him his space and his privacy if she does so. I find diaper changes disturbing enough with her as it is. But a few minutes later for a while at least, it's over. She does do the annoying thing with checking his diaper, even if she feels he's wet, she feels the need to guage whether he's "wet enough" to be changed. Personally, I don't want my kid sitting in ANY urine. If he's wet, and you know it, change him. She likes to "save diapers" (she's overly frugal) by letting him really soak one before she changes it. It's like she gets some kind of kick out of changing a really soaked diaper....(Well, you don't really have to wipe the kid's privates if you change him before he gets really soaked, I guess...maybe that's got something to do with it?) So, in all honestly, I probably actually use more diapers than she does. But she seems to find a need to do the little "checking" thing often. (I also guess you check the kid once and he's wet, change him and that's it. You don't have to keep sticking her fingers into his diaper every 10 mins if you do it that way, so maybe that's another reason...)

But...more or less I feel diaper changes is, you do it, you forget bout the kids privates for a while.
And I can do the same thing with pottying at home. I take the kid's diaper off, and I can forget about his privates for an even longer while. (Except for the occassional moments where he wants to have a chat with me abut "his naked"







...and, er...when he brings me his little bucket of pee to dump in the toilet.) I even have his little potty set up behind a chair in a little private corner. As long as he's naked, he carries on his little functions completely in privacy.

But this arrangement wouldn't work in her house right now because she's too much of a prude and she'd never go for him running her house naked. I also wouldn't be comfortable with that because she's not very "hands off" about his body. I think she'd "accidentally" touch him or something, or be more apt to (?) if he spent a lot of time naked at her house.

So the other option would be to put him on some underpants and offer to let him use the potty very often. She'd be hovering around him, not giving him his space and every 15 mins she'd be asking him (in front of the house and whoever is there) if he has to go. She'd be "accessing" his privates much more often than she would if it was just diapering, and it's just not something I feel comfortable with at all. I guess this is the main reason I can now put into words about why I don't really like this whole getting a new potty thing that she's got...

And I think she knows this, she gets all extra excited about it and stuff. But I guess the good news is, I have another nephew that spends time with her, he's 2 weeks older than my kid, and he's also potty learning. So if she doesn't use the new potty with my kid, I think she'd at least be ok with having it "just in case", you know? I won't hesitate to put her little potty to use when i'm there with my kid, if he wants to use it.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

*Just a quick note! Please excuse my MANY typos. my kid sprayed my computer down the other day with green works that my husband (!







:







) left out for him to get to, and my computer has been doing strange phantom things ever since, and I can't go back and correct typos without the malfunctioning select/backspace (or delete maybe?) button eating my entire post. *


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

From what I'm reading you are massively uncomfortable and with good reason. I think that part of the situation is generational in that children were not granted "privacy" earlier in history the way we try to now. That said, it sounds like you have two primary choices at this point. You can simply limit your child's contact with her right now and hope that there isn't another "creepy" thing down the line or you can get massively firm with her on boundaries and stick to them like glue forever. I'm personally a boundary girl.







My mother has been told in no uncertain terms that she may be a mom, she may even be my mom, but she is not the mom to my kids. She either plays by my rules with my children or she is not allowed to play. But I have an odd family and I have proven that I am ok with not seeing her more than once a year and only talking on the phone every six months. My mother rather desperately wants a relationship with my children so she is willing to accept the rules as I set them down.

(Uhm... just for the record I have pretty reasonable rules with my mom. She's not good at keeping an eye on kids; she has a habit of neglecting them and I'm not ok with her doing that with my children.)


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Okay, the stuff your mom does isn't all that out of the ordinary. The first 3 things I've done with my own kids. Checking inside the diaper of a disposable is quite common, especially among people in thier 50's-60's. I think it's because when they first came out with disposables they weren't super absorbant as they are now & they seemed to all put liners inside of them & it's probably just leftover habit.

The 2nd 2 things are things my mother would do or comment on continuously until I gave in & did it her way.

The things in your other posts are things my mother would absolutly do. Some things I"ve learned to let go, like the hair or her deciding they needed to be bathed. If she thinks they need a bath & they aren't dirty, fine but she's the one who has to do it.

Other things I don't let go. At Christmas we were at my brothers & my youngest was sick. She was running a fever & not feeling well. She did throw up once but it was all mucous & she'd been laying down when she got sick so I think it may have been post nasal drip. Christmas Day mom wanted me to go & give her meds, I refused. We got into an argument over it & so I went up stairs with my dd & opened the windows to cool her off. It was so hot in my brothers house even without cooking a turkey. Somehow she conned DH & my other brother to driving around to find a pharmacy that was open on Christmas Day. I stayed upstairs with my dd for 3 hours packing their stuff they got. We left as soon as possible the next day. I told DH that if we had been closer to home(we were 6hours away) that we would have left the day before.

Quote:

Which is another reason why we seem to butt heads. I'm the youngest and she treats me and my child totally different than she treats my two older sisters. She respects them far more and backs off
This is unbelievably true with me & my sister. She the oldest, I"m the 2nd oldest but the youngest girl. My sister's kids are both younger than all of mine. Things were good between me & my mom & her letting me be the mother around them until my sister had her kids. It's been 4 of years of me basically being an horrible mother who knows nothing, can't do anything right & my mom tries to take over being their mom when I"m there. My sister OTOH can do no wrong, her boys are extremly active & run that fine line of getting away with everything yet I'm the one who doesn't parent good enough.

We live 6 hours from my parents. When we get into times like this where my mom has overstepped her boundries I drop contact for weeks. If she calls I don't pick the phone up.


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## Denali (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
I have to say that if it weren't for my relationship with my father, I probably wane my dealings with her down a lot more

Is there any way you could see your father alone sometimes (away fron her house), thus reducing the contact with her a bit.....? Maybe meet him for lunch somewhere or at the playground or whatever....?

I don't know if that would work, but it would be a chance to escape those problems while at the same time keeping up the relationship with your Dad.....

Besides that, I'd say go with your instincts....if something feels *so* wrong and uncomfortable, there probably IS something not quite right


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Go with your gut. Even if it means cutting off contact with her. You're a MOM first, daughter second.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I agree with alegna- it's best to go with your gut feeling. You're having that reaction for a reason, and you're doing well not to ignore it.

My mother has a lot of control issues and little as I like to I've had to tell her that she is going to need to 'back off' more than once, that she is the grandparent and DH and I are the parents and we make the decisions on how to raise our child.

However thankfully those battles are mostly over sugar consumption, media and (now that I'm pregnant with #2) cloth diapers and baby names. If it were over something as serious as body issues, I'd be much more firm with her.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Yeah that's kind of what I did yesterday. He was off from work, but she had to work so I took him over there and spent a little bit with him before she came home from work.

I was totally ok with taking him over there as long a s I'm there too......until she showed me the potty she purchased for him. She just seemed to overly excited about it and wanted to try it out on him and it just kind of weirded me into saying goodnight for the evening.

It doesn't help that the consistently overstep my authority with my kid. I'm not ok with him doing something, the step in and babble over how I need to let him be, and so, when I'm there, he doesn't want me to touch him, he wants grandma to help him with everything.

I find it extremely annoying try to "take charge" of my kid in the presence of my mom and my toddler is falling over himself in a tantrum because he didn't want "me" to do it, he wanted "grandma" to do it.

And of course whenever he tantrums they ooh and ahh and babble over him and cater to what he wants in such a way that takes my charge away from me. Because they can't stand for him to be upset. So, he learns that, as long as he gets really worked over something (like "I'M going to change your diaper right now, not grandma!") that grandma is going to come to the rescue and try to take over the situation. It's like, I'm trying to protect my kiddo, and HE is against me with them. And it makes me second guess my deep dark feelings I have about the situation.

It's very hard to describe but it's crazymaking. And my husband validates (seeing the occurrences) that I"m not crazy on this, it's a very frustrating situation that's sat up when I'm there.

So it's kind of settled down now that he only sees them ever so often. But this potty thing she proudly purchased is like throwing a nice new rock into a pond that's finally stilled itself and cause a whole bunch of new ripples to iron out, and I just can';t handle it right now since i'm pregnant.

No matter what I do I'll encounter crap. If I just don't bring him over, I'll have to hear about it from both of them and from my kiddo. If I bring him over to visit occassionally and not leave him and operate the pottying myself in the house, I'll hear crap about how "she wanted to do it". And I'll say "No, I got it." And she'll be all pissy for weeks. (She just got out of the pissyness she had going when she found out I was pregnant again.) If I just try to let him go and not worry about it, I'll be stressed because I'd be so uncomfortable with that. Or, I could start WWIII by addressing the little unspoken of exchanges and annoyances we have with each other outright.

I just have to figure out which way I'll deal with it at this point, I guess.

ETA:
I guess I after reading my options written out, I'd be more ok with taking the road of taking him over to visit (as frequently as when she's not there and Grandad is, as possible) and operating the potty thing myself and firmly putting her in her place if she tries to step in, and being a hawk and firmly putting her in her place if she goes overboard with the potty-related hovering. And then, if she get's pissy and this pissyness gets too much out of control for me, I'm going to start WWIII.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I wanted to say more.

First of all, read the book Protecting the Gift.

Without going into too many personal details, there is a relative in my life about whom I feel this way. (just the "weird, uncomfortable" way.) And this relative has NEVER babysat my children, for that very reason. (And a counselor backed me up that I shouldn't leave my children with this person because of my feelings, however vague they may be.)

Sometimes it is possible to simultaneously know, and not know, a thing.
Meaning--it's there in your subconscious, not your conscious thought processes. Our brains don't want to overwhelm us, even if something did happen to us as children. So our brains will give us (as adults) JUST ENOUGH information to protect our children. (Not enough information that we get overwhelmed and despondent.)

Your subconscious is whispering to you. Don't dismiss it.

Since you have let your mom into your life so much now (too much, in my opinion, based on the feelings you've had since childhood), it will be difficult to pull away. BUT YOU HAVE TO. YOU REALLY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE if you want to protect your ds.

Again, I'll say: Read Protecting the Gift.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok, I'll check that book out. Thanks.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

HOnestly I think your mom needs to get some hobbies but i don't think there is anything wrong witht he way she is acting.

But if you are uncomfortable with it i would just hold off on unsupervised visits for a while.

if your mom says anything I would just shrug your shoulders and tell her that you want to work really consistantly on potty training (including one place, one set of expectations and one person who can consostantly help him - you!) until he is able to take care of his business independantly.


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I wanted to say more.

First of all, read the book Protecting the Gift.

Without going into too many personal details, there is a relative in my life about whom I feel this way. (just the "weird, uncomfortable" way.) And this relative has NEVER babysat my children, for that very reason. (And a counselor backed me up that I shouldn't leave my children with this person because of my feelings, however vague they may be.)

Sometimes it is possible to simultaneously know, and not know, a thing.
Meaning--it's there in your subconscious, not your conscious thought processes. Our brains don't want to overwhelm us, even if something did happen to us as children. So our brains will give us (as adults) JUST ENOUGH information to protect our children. (Not enough information that we get overwhelmed and despondent.)

Your subconscious is whispering to you. Don't dismiss it.

Since you have let your mom into your life so much now (too much, in my opinion, based on the feelings you've had since childhood), it will be difficult to pull away. BUT YOU HAVE TO. YOU REALLY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE if you want to protect your ds.

Again, I'll say: Read Protecting the Gift.

I completely agree with this and just wanted to add another voice of support and encouragement- trust your gut Mama! Set strong boundaries and keep them. The buck stops with you.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

The things your mom does, for the most part, doesn't seem that out of the ordinary by themselves. But put together, yeah, I'd have some big issues, too.

While she's your mom don't be afraid to put your foot down. If he's wearing a diaper around her and she goes to stick her finger in, firmly stop her and say, "No, this is how we check." If she gives you problems, just say this is the way you're going to do it and that's that.

You have mother's intuition and these feelings for a reason. If she weren't your mother would you let someone else that you have these feelings about anywhere near your child? Probably not. Yes, not causing family problems is important, but protecting your child is the most important thing. Do whatever you feel is necessary to protect your son.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

The gut feeling is more important than the individual actions. I have someone in my family about whom I feel this way. I've struggled with the same concern. It's not something I can put into words, and if I told someone my concerns, there's no way they'd take them seriously. The individual actions don't *seem* legitimate; it's the way they're handled that make me uncomfortable. Luckily for me, it's not someone we see very often. DH feels the same way, and our firm rule is that the children are not ever to be left without one of us or one other designated family member when we're on the same property as this person. I'd cut off contact, but it would mean eliminating my relationship with a slew of other people to do so. Still I absolutely could not live with it if this person hurt one of my children.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

i think what your mom is doing *is* weird. i don't think it's generational. my mom is 61 and raised 4 kids. she's more than happy to sit back and let me handle toilet training. she's quite content to interact by pushing DD on a swing and reading her a book. period. *not* interested in changing diapers. at all. been there, done that. had enough.
definitely read protecting the gift and also "the gift of fear" by the same author. buy them used on amazon for a few bucks. well worth it. i just read this entire thread and you said over and over, maybe 50-100 times that you feel suspicious and uneasy and have reasons to be "weirded out" and yet you are continuing to "justify" and need to rationalize. there is no need to justify or rationalize your feelings. read the books, and learn that these feelings are *survival* mechanisms built into ourselves. you don't have to go through life "looking for trouble" but by the same token, when you get a bad feeling, by all means, validate it by believing in your own intuition.
what normal person sticks fingers in a child's disposable diaper? i never wipe down the child for pee only. my mom says for potty training you need to be home all the time (in your own house), certainly not going to grandmas.
oh, and if you have been a "weak" daughter compared to your sisters, now's a great time to firm up your own backbone. you'll be glad you did. good luck!


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Gabysmom,

I would trust your instinct.....to be honest when I read your reasons it made me cringe also. I have 2 girls and am potty training one of them and we certainly dont have to do any "touching" except for wiping ( with pooping). We also dont keep bugging her in public...more a whisper in her ear ever 2 hours or so. We use one of those rinse bottles they give you after baby is born to rinse private areas. I asked a friend of mine who has a boy she is potty training and she said it really isnt any different with boys.
I understand your situation with regards to being alone and not having family (we also dont have family) but I would not leave my daughters alone with anyone I got a hinky feeling with unsupervised even for a minute. Please look into a babysitter or something. What is to stop her from inappropriate touching at anytime? I understand she is your mother but your and your husband first responsibility is to protect your son. And you dont want to hurt your father either. Personally, I think if I were in your situation (my father was physically abusive to us so I am trying to put down how I deal/work with him) I would do certain things:
1. I would never leave my kids alone or even turn my back for a minute if I did visit her.
2. If I didnt want to cause a problem with my dad wondering why I dont leave them alone, I would make some excuse...maybe a joke about me having separation anxiety/dont want to be away etc. and be stubborn about it.
3. I would physically (but gently so not to cause a problem) push her away if she tried to take over changing the diaper or anything that got her near his privates. If she tried to put her hand in his area, I would look her right in the eye, block her hand, and tell her firmly that we have adopted a no touch training.
4. Or better still, I would have a little talk with gramma that it is mothers/fathers responsibility with the potty training and she is NOT to interfere and if she does visits will be made in a public place only (for your dads sake).

I know you dont want to rock the boat (especially for your fathers sake) but you need to protect your son..and if that means talking to gramma/visiting in public place etc then please do it. I was physically (not sexually) abused by my dad and it has never left me. I am very careful with my kids and would never ever let anyone around them unsupervised if I had any sort of a feeling about them. Please both you and your husband listen to your instincts here ok?


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

i know its the same answer over and over, but I agree with everyone that you should trust your intuition. I think as a mother you can just know some things.... and knowing when a situation may be unsafe is one of them.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I highly suspect that you have visceral memories of your mother's treatment of you when you were potty training.

When you think of her potty training you can literaly FEEL in your body what that means. And you do not like it for good reason.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think you should trust your gut, and find alternative childcare arrangements. I wouldn't leave my child alone with her if I had any other options. I think it' so strange that she can't even step back while you're there! My Mom changed diapers as needed when she was watching the kids, but was quite happy to let me do the diapers and toileting if I was available.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Wow, this thread revived itself while I was away doing my gestational diabetes test.

Actually, last night (because we had to go a small distance to do my test, and it lasted one hour) I had a slight argument with my husband about this.

He is just...so...UGH...when it comes to (God forbid!!!) entertaining the baby for a while as I need to go to the doctor!







: So, out of sheer laziness, once again, he asked me if (or basically "when") I was going to call my mom to let her keep him today.

I asked him if all the things we discuss that we feel really yucky about around her meant anything?

He started feeling guilty over his laziness, and we just took the monster with us. They played Shrek in the waiting room. When he got sick of that, he took him outside to play.

Before, he had kept saying to me, (when I suggested taking outside at the doctors if he got antsy) 'But it's parking lots out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where is he going to play?????????????'

I"m like, "THE BOY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT PARKING LOTS! THERE ARE SIDEWALKS OUT THERE, AND FLOWERS. AS LONG AS YOU WATCH HIM TO MAKE SURE HE STAYS ON THE SIDEWALK WHEN A CAR COMES, HE'S IN HEAVEN OUTSIDE!!!"

He just keeps on putting up the LAMEST reasons to justify his laziness.

Well, anyhow, he ended up taking the monster outside, and it was TOTALLY no big deal.
I think the ease of this trip opened the way for my husband to see that it's no big deal for him to join us on future doctor's appointments.

(They midwife's office where I ususally go has a whole area designated for kids with toys and tables and and stuff, and we had to drag him out of there the last time...)

Meanwhile, my dad is asking for his weekly visit. I plan to do the same thing last time, take him while my mom is working, stay there instead of leaving him, and watching him like a hawk. When I do this, the visits are usually uneventful, and I can catch any "hokey" diaper things before they happen.

Oh, and A A, as soon as you mentioned that book, while I even still had this thread opened, I ordered the book. It should be here soon. I'll look into the other one as well.

Thanks for all the suggestions and encouragement to listen to my gut wispers.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think the perspective you gain from that book will be immensely helpful to you


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Be bold, assertive and firm. I've been there, done that. Your mom is probably not perverted, but from your own observations, she ain't right, either.

My mother also tried from day one to assert some kind of primacy as the mother of MY daughter, so I know that story, too. It's a real pi$$er.

And in my view, the unthinkable is already happening with your mom. She's already blurring boundaries with your son. His self-esteem is your number one job nowadays, and hers just have to be her problem.

It doesn't matter if her actions are somehow "innocent" or just ignorant... or if therapy would help her, or what. What matters is she is MESSING with people's heads and it must be stopped.

Pounce. Make it crystal clear: you are the one and only MOM, and if gma crosses the line, gma become a penpal.

Draw the line clearly, because even then, you will still find yourself having to remind your mother harshly what the deal is, because she won't likely just stop doing what she wants, so to speak. Don't let her get you in a dance about it: set the stage yourself. Make a list for her: "You will NOT xxx, you will NOT yyy, you WILL zzz," etc. (note: no need to say why she is or isn't to do such and such.) Get it clear on paper for yourself what the rules are, like how you might ask a judge to word an order of protection.

You must be brave, and you will LOVE yourself and your life all the more if you DO IT. I did. It does feel good. Relationships were altered, but, people adapted to it, either by being removed from my life, or by accepting my rules for engagement, and that feels WAAY better than always wondering, fearing, doubting your own mind, even.

Good luck.

VF


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## ShannonT (Dec 6, 2007)

My mom does something similar with my nephew, like she thinks she's the mom. It's very creepy. We call it "Hand that Rocks the Cradle" -- like the movie.

She has to do everything for the kid, even when both of his parents are right there. If anyone dares say anything to her, she gets very pouty and stomps off.

Then there's the shaming and taunting.









It's why she never spends any time with my DD alone.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think the perspective you gain from that book will be immensely helpful to you

















:

Come back and talk about it any time (or feel free to PM me.)


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apricot* 
At minimum, you and she have very different ideas about bodily integrity and the rights of other little humans. I'm not trying to trivialize this complaint, but did you read the thread here about if feet are private and gross? Otherwise sane people can have very different ideas about what's private and public, profane and sacred.
If that's the case, you could tell her that you have different ideas about potty training and diapers, and that all diapers and potty training are to be left to you, no holds barred, in order not to confuse the child.
If it's just a difference of opinion, that will work. If she's fufilling some desire of hers, it's not going to work.

I agree with Apricot. And I get the feeling your mom doesn't respect your competence as a parent.

My MIL also is more the kind who takes charge of the kid's body. It shows in anything related to food and drink too. I am big on him having say over his body and choice over what he wants to experience and how. (She also thinks I am doing things wrong, and never fails to tell me "you are going to do X when Y happens", etc, as if there is no question that I will do as she says.)

But I don't have any bad feelings. It is more just that I can feel DS's tension when MIL helps him with things like that, because he feels uncomfortable that she isn't respecting his boundaries. He is only not even 10 months old yet, but if she "helicopters" too much for him, he won't hesitate to start screaming and refusing to cooperate. But he is an unusually willful child, and you can't expect most children to defend themselves like that. DS has had, from birth, firm ideas of what is right and what is wrong. Most people learn right and wrong from trusted authority figures, like Grandma.

I agree with the idea that you should simply announce that you are using an unusual potty training technique designed specifically for your child based on his current skill level. So, for the technique to work, it is important that only you and DH are involved for the time being. So, temporarily, no more watching him while you go do something for a few hours.

I agree with those who suggested that if she leaves it at that, it is just a difference of opinion/technique, but if she isn't satisfied with that then that would suggest that something IS going on. Hopefully this will tell you for sure.

Also, could your assertive sister go to bat for you? Perhaps you can talk to her about this and see if you can come up with some kind of plan together.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Have you gotten your hands on Protecting the Gift yet? If not, I'll throw in my recommendation of it too.

I'd also like to say that neither my mom or my mother in law have checked diapers, changed diapers or taken my kids to the bathroom when I've been around. Not that I wouldn't let them, just when I'm around, I'm the one who does it. This makes sense to me. Thus, it seems weird to me that your mom wants to be involved with it when you're there.


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

my MIL does almost all these things. no offense, but i can understand why someone would be grossed out at not wiping baby every time. i don't wipe my baby every time but i can understand the perspective. i have checked a diaper like that w/ the finger. some people, especially older ones, have been told all their lives by doctors that they must take special care to ensure clean genitalia in diaper waring infants. i have had to stop my MIL from retracting baby's foreskin and she gets that diaper ointment in EVERY crevice. so much of this behavior sounds like normal pushy stuff which makes me think that if you're getting the odd vibe there must be something to it or you'd just be yelling about your pushy mom.

perhaps it's not sexual though. perhaps it is a very unhealthy urge to control. some control freaks can and do damage others in their lives by extending their influence through force or emotional blackmail and the results can last a lifetime. from this distance it sounds much more like someone who has a need to exert control over even the most intimate parts of her children's and grandchildren's lives. that's very unhealthy but in a different way than overt sexual abuse. just a different perspective. one possible frame for the problem.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thebarkingbird* 

perhaps it's not sexual though. perhaps it is a very unhealthy urge to control. some control freaks can and do damage others in their lives by extending their influence through force or emotional blackmail and the results can last a lifetime. from this distance it sounds much more like someone who has a need to exert control over even the most intimate parts of her children's and grandchildren's lives. that's very unhealthy but in a different way than overt sexual abuse. just a different perspective. one possible frame for the problem.

You could be right. I don't think "something would _happen_", but i still feel massively uncomfortable about her not giving him his space, and I think, even if nothing else ever "goes down", _that_ in itself could affect him long term. She also just touches too much, too involved. Anyone who has no problem about just picking up a kid by the crotch doesn't give any thought to allowing a child his own "intimate" space, if that makes any sense. He's getting to old to overlook that crotch thing.

And if it has affected me this way, then it will affect him. But sometimes I still wonder if anything "more" could/has/would ever happen. And I feel awful for wondering that.

she's an expert at the emotional blackmail thing, though.

I would get my assertive sister involved, or her advice, but while she's given my mom a peice of her mind a couple of times, she's still massively defensive of my mom, and would flip if i ever put this type of accusation on her. I'd rather not take a chance at telling anybody that i don't 100% trust to not blow me completely off, like my husband...and at least consider what I say without all the family-defense mechanisms involved.

I JUST got my book yesterday (







: Finally!..don't know WHY it took so long) and i started on reading it. I got a lot out of it so far about how your intuition knows more than you think it does, but I haven't gotten into the real "meat" of it yet, I'll get there though.


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## Poogles0213 (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
I don't know/don't think she'd molest him. I just want her to stop touching him and stop stressing over his body so much. I Just want her to back off a lot, and stop being such a helicopter. Ease up and chill out.

she starts being secretive and stuff when we are there, and i don't like it. why does she feel the need to take my kid in the bathroom and shut the door? I always go in there after her, and she's always doing something i don't really care for (and she knows it)..but never really anything in the realms of molestation. she sprays this chemical crap on his hair because she's very much anti-afro and my kid has a beautiful one that she's always trying to "control".
[...]
Control and shaming. It's a combination I don't like.

My stepfather sexually abused me from the time I was 6 until I was about 16-17. It was a very subtle kind of abuse...I thought I was just "making a big deal out of nothing" so I never told anyone, and I didn't try to stop it.

From the things you've said here, PLEASE PLEASE listen to that whisper telling you something is wrong....I ignored it for so long, thinking it was just all in my head.

Sexual abuse takes many forms, and although I will not go so far to say that what you see her do now falls into that category (there's no way for me to know without being in your shoes), there is definitely a reason that it upsets you so much.

That you seem unsure that she COULD do something like that is also a big red flag for me.

I'm sorry if I seem to be coming off strongly or anything...I just can't keep silent when I hear things like this, not when it happened to me.

I wish you and your DC all the luck in the world, and I sincerely hope you find your way through this dark time.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

My thoughts before reading the entire thread, but not the OP:

Has she maybe never seen an intact penis before?

Is she like this with all kids? Just boys? Just yours?


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

This is very hard to put into words; and it may come off all wrong...

But one of the things that bothers me here lately is this "sense of belonging" that she tries to instill into my child, very very subtly. He seems like he doesn't feel he belongs to us. I mean, I WANT him to be close to his grandparents. But at the end of the day, he belongs here at home, with his mommy and daddy.

Somehow, some way, without me being able to pinpoint _how_ --if she's around, he doesn't seem to "belong" to us anymore, he belongs to her.

Now, with my dad, it's absolutely totally different. My ds is head over heels in love with my dad, totally. I mean, he's behind his footsteps every step of the day as long as granddad is around. But as much as he hates leaving granddaddy, he knows he "belongs" with us. He comes to us when he needs stuff (even if he goes straight back to granddaddy after he's good/fed/dried/whatever.) But it's just totally not the same with my mom.

It's like, my dad doesn't try to steal that belonging away from us like my mom does...







I feel like I"m not making any sense....

And after reading a lot of this book, I think that's what bothers me the most.

And a couple of things that bother me that my mom does in our presence. When she picks him up, how can I tell her, without causing an bomb-explosian, to not put his hands on his crotch so much?

I think can handle everything else as long as I'm there, but I'm totally at a loss as to how to graciously or discreetly handle that.

Mysticmamma, yes she behaves weird with other kids before. Boys and girls in the past. (FTR, I've told her from the beginning to never retract his foreskin, and why, and I'm sure she hasn't done that. As weird as she is with kids, I can safely and confidently say she doesn't have any desire to physically hurt any child, and she knows that's what retracting a foreskin will do.)

Like I say, I don't "know" or havent' "seen" her do anything particular with any of my neices/nephews/cousins, but she acts the same way I've mentioned in my op with them. I always felt uncomfortable about it. I've felt uncomfortable enough to intervene and take over at times in my own childhood when i was old enough in caring for my neices and nephews so I wouldn't have to feel "weird" about her doing it. But of course, I was only 10, or 11,12...or 14...or whatever, so I couldn't always step in and kinda play the big sister role all the time. I thought it was just me being silly or whatever--it's just really hits home now that it's my own kid.

Oh, and she makes sure to tell my husband that she's available to sit now that school is out and she doesn't substitue bus driving anymore. she keeps saying how much she misses him to try to get me to leave him over there.

I wouldn't mind visits while I'm present, but I just don't know how to react when I try to take care of ds, and do whatever, and he pushes me away and wants grandma to do it. If I take over anyway, against his wishes (possibly in his best interests) he screams and cries and fusses and then they are looking at me, like, "what's the big deal?" and I become some weird, psycho mom, and the kid goes running to grandma. I think that's what makes me the craziest. She'll almost step in front of me and take over if he starts to fuss. I need to be more assertive during these times, I think...I don't know. I still feel like maybe i'm making something out of nothing.







It's all very confusing.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

gabysmom617 said:


> .
> 
> "And a couple of things that bother me that my mom does in our presence. When she picks him up, how can I tell her, without causing an bomb-explosian, to not put his hands on his crotch so much?"
> 
> ...


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
She'll almost step in front of me and take over if he starts to fuss. I need to be more assertive during these times, I think...I don't know. I still feel like maybe i'm making something out of nothing.







It's all very confusing.

don't you get to be the mom? it would be normal for your mom to be happy that *you're* the mom. and want you to have the experience of being a mother. her taking over the mom role from you is like stealing away your opportunity. and she's violating a cardinal rule that no one should be more interested in your child than you are.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Sometimes I just stop and think about my mom's own childhood. It was kind of rough.

Her father was an alcoholic and her mom; well....she's wacko. She's the nicest, kindest, talkative old lady, and she's just as wacked out as she can be.

FWIW, I DEFINETLY get a wierded out feeling with my grandmother as well. Oh yes. Definitely. It's not something that I've had to deal with often, but it's definitely there. The logical side of me wonders about her father being alcoholic and all, but the intuitive side of me thinks that maybe our hunches, if valid, stem from some problems she may have had with her mother.

My mom has told me how she had it rough between listening to her mom and dad fight all the time, so HER grandmother (my great grandmother) was always there for her and stuff. Her great grandmother WAS like a second mother to her. As so she had to be, at times, since my mother had such a turbulent home life.

And my mother has told me that she wants to be to her grandchildren what her grandmother was to her....a second mother.

But my husband and I discussed it the other day. Sure we have our problems, the two of us; many marriages do. But there is in no way the kind of verbal violence and alcoholism that she had to deal with and needed a "second mother's" protection from in ds's home to warrent him "needing" a second mother the way she did, you know?

I mean, she seems to want to think that my kid needs her the same way she needed her grandmother....

I mean it's great (maybe) that she'd be so willing to take the mommy role onto herself should something happen between my husband and myself; it's a great gesture.

But, in general, the kind of relationship she is trying to foster (taking over??) with my ds is really completely unnecessary and at the very least, imposing. Sure, it would make sense to be that person if the need were present at the time being. But the need is totally absent and we don't anticipate needing a "second mom" anytime soon. So, in essence, she needs to stand back, and let me be the mommy, you know?

Things are getting much better since we only see them once a week now (and I'm always continuously there being a hawk.) They haven't noticed yet, and since the visits slacked off, they are seeming to get used to the once a week thing.

I also thing a lot of this stems from her control issues, and I think I'm also going to order a couple of books that talk about that as well....

ETA: the crotch thing doesn't happen often; it's one of those things that makes me cringe when it does. It's always weird and....out of place. There are certain times when you're holding an infant, maybe a year old or less, when you may come into contact briefly with it's crotch. My kiddo just seems to be entirely to large, long, gangly and old for her to find a reason to hold him while her hand is in his crotch.
--The thing is, it's never in secret or anything. It's like she totally doesn't realize what she's doing. But at the same time...it's like blasting in me and my husband's face, both of us are sitting there unknowingly thinking hte same thing...."why???"


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
And my mother has told me that she wants to be to her grandchildren what her grandmother was to her....a second mother.

But my husband and I discussed it the other day. Sure we have our problems, the two of us; many marriages do. But there is in no way the kind of verbal violence and alcoholism that she had to deal with and needed a "second mother's" protection from in ds's home to warrent him "needing" a second mother the way she did, you know?

I mean, she seems to want to think that my kid needs her the same way she needed her grandmother....

I mean it's great (maybe) that she'd be so willing to take the mommy role onto herself should something happen between my husband and myself; it's a great gesture.

i don't want to give you too much advice. but i thought i should also mention that if you haven't already, you and your husband should draw up your wills and name someone (or a couple) specifically who would become your child's legal guardian in the event that something did happen to you both. in my case, we picked my brother and his wife, since they are close in age to me and have three kids and a stable marriage. my mom knows about this and is very happy with our choice. older people like our parents age are not a good choice to raise a child for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that they are older!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Definitely. I was only saying that it's "sweet" for her to be willing to be a second mom; but by no means would I want her to be if that need ever arose. I just have no idea who I would choose right now. That's going to require a lot of thinking...


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 

But sometimes I still wonder if anything "more" could/has/would ever happen. And I feel awful for wondering that.


I completely understand. As I mentioned, I have a similar situation. And there is some grief that comes with the realization that maybe things are that way. But you have to quickly get over the grief and anguish and whatever else, and protect your son.
It's hard to protect your child when you're still dealing with "should I feel this way?" There's no "should" or "should not" about it. You *DO* feel this way. So protect your child.

If you could move (even an hour away) it would put a nice, needed distance between you and your mother.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I completely understand. As I mentioned, I have a similar situation. And there is some grief that comes with the realization that maybe things are that way. But you have to quickly get over the grief and anguish and whatever else, and protect your son.
It's hard to protect your child when you're still dealing with "should I feel this way?" There's no "should" or "should not" about it. You *DO* feel this way. So protect your child.

If you could move (even an hour away) it would put a nice, needed distance between you and your mother.

Yes, that is the target goal that we want to do; we thought that my husband was going to have a transfer opportunity in June about an hour away and we would move with our stimulus check; but that job had a few things that happen like a burglery and they had to make some quick other arrangements, so that fell through.

I was always happier when we had distance between us and my mom.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
I wouldn't mind visits while I'm present, but I just don't know how to react when I try to take care of ds, and do whatever, and he pushes me away and wants grandma to do it. If I take over anyway, against his wishes (possibly in his best interests) he screams and cries and fusses and then they are looking at me, like, "what's the big deal?" and I become some weird, psycho mom, and the kid goes running to grandma. I think that's what makes me the craziest. She'll almost step in front of me and take over if he starts to fuss. I need to be more assertive during these times, I think...I don't know. I still feel like maybe i'm making something out of nothing.







It's all very confusing.


Distance, distance, distance, distance. Either not going over there or moving! I'm sorry it's so hard! Once is a week is still way too frequent, I think, given all of your feelings and experiences.


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

When I read about the picking up by the crotch I thought that had to be bad for your son's developing hip joints, but I couldn't find much on google. I did find this:

Quote:

Pick up heavier children as you would a box. Don't bend at the waist, but get down to child's level by bending your knees (so as not to stress your back). When carrying a child, keep her weight close to your body. For babies: Use an infant pack that straps over both shoulders, to distribute weight evenly
http://hpl.umces.edu/safety/Ergonomi...xErgo.htm#Lift

so maybe you could tell your mom you're worried about her back now that ds is growing so she should pick him up differently? Just an idea, probably a lame one, I just want to help you.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I think you could honestly say it could potentially damage his testicles. That's one of the reasons the bjorn-type carriers are dangerous (in addition to the hip joint and lower back stress, which wouldn't necessarily translate to a human holding a child that way, depending).


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Thanks for those suggestions. But next time, I think I'm going to tell her up straight...."Can you please move your hand out of the way of his crotch???" with a







: look on my face and let the chips fall where they may.

It's been a while since I saw her last, and when I did, she didn't pick him up at all, so it wasn't an issue. The time before she did and as freaking usual, i was too shellshocked to say any dang thing.

It's not going to be like that next time. It wasn't like that last time because I didn't take my eye off of her and him. I also didn't stay long either.

I'm tired of the crap. It stops now.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 

I'm tired of the crap. It stops now.

Good for you!

I wouldn't let her babysit him, either.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

I haven't read all the replies...but you need to talk to HER and set the boundaries with HER...it may have never occurred to her that what you want needs to get done (not what she thinks needs to happen)...set your boundaries-- "I'm not comfortable with you holding him with your hand in his crotch--that's not appropriate." She does it again, she loses him.

Make a list of everything that makes you uncomfortable--share with her what you would LIKE her to do instead (instead of sharing, "don't do this, don't do that") and if she can't respect your boundaries she gives up the privilege of being around your kids until they can communicate their personal uncomfortableness.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

Maybe you could be _very_ specific with her, so there isn't any grey area for her to wiggle around in.

"Mom, please don't hold him like that. I'd much rather you held him like this-" Take your son from her and demonstrate. (If she tries to prevent you from taking him, btw, this is a signal that she has very serious boundary issues.) If she wants to know why her way is wrong, be specific again. "DH and I don't feel it is appropriate to hold him by his genitals. We want him to know that that part of his body is private." If she persists, well, you'll know something is really wrong.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

everyone has already given you great advice i just wanted to add... my mother also has ridulous boundary issuesnot in a sexual way in the your my baby thats your baby so that much make him mine also kind of way grr!...be clear, be firm, be consistent, and if you have to remind her more then once leave. if the constant requests to watch your DC are driving you batty set clear boundaries about that as well.

also saw pp mention about your will... i woluld agree with that as well. my FIL creeps me out.... bigtime.. in that if you even look at DS wrong i'll kick your creepy weird butt out of my house kind of way. one of the first things we did when DS was born was make a will stating who DS guardians will be if anything happens to us (and two back up guardians just in case). But also stating all visits with my inlaws must be in the presence of DS legal guardian. DH has never told me outright that his father did anything but he thinks this is a good arrangement. we have also never told his parents about the added line.

trust your intuition.. you have it for a reason







and dont be afraid to stand up for yourself in a bigway. your first obligation is to your DC and yourself


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

I agree with several other pp's, read "Protecting the Gift".

I think it is really great that you are listening to that little voice even if you can't totally pinpoint where it is coming from. That is how our instincts work.

As far as some of the other posters saying that they don't think what she is doing is out of the ordinary for her age group; it may not be out of the ordinary, but what _is_ out of the ordinary is the OP's creepy feeling. I think those feelings need to be listened to.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

That much is apparent, when tonight, I was expressing some misgivings about taking care of ds probably combined with a whole lot of hormonal emotion, he chastises me for "not letting anyone help me", that i'm "burning out" and "trying to do it on my own"...

...............which leaves me with what options, exactly?

And of course he's talking about how I need to let my mom help more.

My husband always does this crap. He makes like he's on board with something and then weeks later reveals that he's not.

I keep explaining to him about my intuition and that I thought I was trying to keep my child safe from that by only doing occassional supervised visits.

I think, based on his comments, my intuition doesn't really mean a hill of beans because nothing backs it up...even though he is weirded out by her behavior as well.

It's like: how am I supposed to protect him until he's potty trained and allow her to keep him at the same time?

He's like, "well, who else is there?" I don't know many people or have many friends whom I'd trust to take care of him.

the whole world is against me and i'm starting to suspect that maybe I'm the crazy one. nothing makes sense anymore.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
.

the whole world is against me and i'm starting to suspect that maybe I'm the crazy one. nothing makes sense anymore.











Maybe it feels that way IRL. But here on this board you have a WHOLE lot of mamas who are saying YOU'RE *NOT* CRAZY! Stick to your guns.

Perhaps you could post in "Finding Your Tribe" for help with childcare. I'd help you if you were close to me! (I'm in Utah.)


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

see if you can get your dh to read the book too. i have more thoughts, will post later.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

So, I talked to him more about it, and two things that always seem to play in his mind in situations like this is

a) The "his/our fault/responsibility" part in it...this stems from issues with his own mom. He wants to know basically what we can do to resolve the situation...basically that it needs to be talked about or forgotten about. That basically if we don't talk about the situation with them then it doesn't exist. This situation is different because I'd feel highly uncomfortable discussing it with my parents.

b) Afraid of the whole thing blowing up later. That "it's noticable" when I swoop in to handle diaper changes and whatnot at their house...and that my mom told him "it's like she doesn't want me to touch him anymore!!".....

I had to explain to him that the fact that she even noticed bothered me. If I took care of a kid that was not my kid and my motives were pure and innocent, and all of a sudden a mom wanted to start acting like a mom and handle certain responsibilities with that kid, why would I even notice? It's not my kid, it's a mom being a mom. There are other aspects of my mom's relationship with my child that totally oversteps boundaries. She wants to be "mom" when I'm there, in regards to discipline and in regards to feeding and all sorts of other stuff. I don't mind the feeding...I DO mind the discipline...if I'm present, it's my jurisdiction, no matter who the child is offending. Other than diapering and discipline, she does EVERYTHING that she's always done grandmotherly: that is to say, getting on the floor and playing with him and feeding him and being generally grandmotherly. Everything else is the same as it has always been. Why does it matter all of a sudden to her, that she would even NOTICE that lately I've been handling all diapering?

He was also basically blaming ourselves because dealing with hard to deal with grandparents seem to be our lot in life. When BOTH sets of grandparents are starting to go buck wild (his mom and dad are divorced, his mom is ragingly narcissistic, and his dad is verbally abusive to dh now and has physically abused his children in the past), he starts to look at himself and think, maybe he IS wrong.

I had to tell him that they are bringing this on themselves. I know for a fact that some of the stuff my mom is expecting me to suck it up and deal with when it comes to my kid and her and disciplining him when I'm right there, she would NEVER EVER tolerate from her own mother with us as children. I just know this. I had to ask him did he think the restrictions I had set up were unreasonable...he's like, no. Which is: no unsupervised visits until the kid is potty trained. and...if i'm present, discipline belongs to me. period. (which seems to be the latest thing they can't handle because lately I'm _always_ present.) He said this makes sense.

So, I told him he needs to stop blaming himself and us if our parents are getting their panties in a wad. We are just being parents. And he's kinda ok with it now.

He says that I'm overworked and whatnot, he said that he meant we need to look into options for a bit of help with the kid from time to time, even if that is not my mom. That I could understand....so that's our next course of action right now.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
Which is: no unsupervised visits until the kid is potty trained.
.

How to say this gently.

Mama, I don't know if your mom is sexually abusive or not. I'm not entirely sure if the person in my life (I mentioned previously) is abusive or not, either. But, like the book states, once you get those "weird" feelings, you know all you need to know. Even if you don't know more. Even if you don't *WANT* to know more. You still know all you need to know. You know that you don't want to take any chances.

*Which means: no unsupervised visits, ever.*

Even after he's potty trained, she could sit him on her lap for "story time" or whatever, and still be touching him inappropriately.

It totally sucks that you have problems with both sets of grandparents, but...

1) It's not your fault

and 2) Look at the bright side......you and dh managed to find each other and make a great family despite all the chaos in your families of origin.

It makes sense, in a way, that you have problems with both sets of grandparents; perhaps that's one way in which you and dh connected--you could relate to each other's life growing up (even if you didn't consciously realize this.)










And if this "blows up," as you put it, don't back down and don't give in. You don't have to specifically tell your parents what you are feeling, but you can say that you've decided you won't be using them for childcare any more and any visits they have with your ds will be family visits with you there, too. And again, I'd seriously look at moving at least an hour away if possible.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok...as for the "ever" part.

I'm not sure where I stand on that yet. As a kid, I never had any kind of problem or intuitive misgivings about my mom after a kid was older, verbal, and able to go into the bathroom handle their own business, and come out with absolutely no assistance whatsoever.

I think, at that point, she woud feel it would be a bit noticable for her to join in to "help" at that point.

My main "issues" with her revolve about young, preverbal, needing-assistance-with-diapering/pottying babes, that still are small enough to be picked up and held. Not so much with, say, 5/6 year olds on up.

I mean, at this point I feel like I need to be cautious of her, but I simply don't see her as some kind of predator once a child is beyond a certain point of making her uncomfortable. "Grandma! Why are you doing this or that? I can do it myself!"

I remember one time when I was in the 1st grade, and my mom was.......um...helping me get clean for before school. I kept giggling because I told her that it tickled when she cleaned me. She looked like some one had just exposed her deepest darkest secret, and I was alone by myself in the bathroom from that day forward.

I just "know" my mom. Just like I know how she is now that my kid is young, I "know" how she is after a child gets a certain age. She's a prude x1million. Once a kid is verbal enough to start to ask her uncomfortable questions (and she gets EXTREMELY uncomfortable EXTREMELY quick), and be capable of handling their business themselves, she basically runs away from "inappropriate helping" like a frightened deer. After that point, I just can't say I have any kind of misgivings about them staying with her for a short visit after that. I just don't. What I DO have reservations about with her is young preverbal potty training kids, but nothing really beyond that. I DO know and would confidently feel that my kid would be safe after that point for a visit.

I hope that doesn't make you moms here who have been so wonderful at supporting me and helping me sort through this thus far feel that I'm a totally inadequate mom for feeling that way. I just know my mom, that's all...like a book. Right now, I'm not doing unsupervised visits. I guess what I'll do is not have a specific age/cutoff point for that right now...but I do know that the day will come, one day, that I'll feel more comfortable with allowing them once my kids are past the age of being dependant on somebody for help and being able to clearly speak up and be a bit more independant. I'll just let the future happen and see how I feel about it later, I guess.

And even as I'm checking on this thread, i'm on craigslist looking for a way to check out of this town. I defintely don't feel comfortable living near them anymore at this point.

I'm sorry if that came out all in a jumble, but I'm tired and my pregnant brain heightens in levels of density when I'm sleepy, so perhaps tomorrow I'll come in reread and rephrase if I said something wrong.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
I remember one time when I was in the 1st grade, and my mom was.......um...helping me get clean for before school. I kept giggling because I told her that it tickled when she cleaned me. She looked like some one had just exposed her deepest darkest secret, and I was alone by myself in the bathroom from that day forward.

yipes, honey! sounds like you were sexually abused. and this is what a predator of young children would do. they get you before you can speak for yourself. i'm so sorry that this happened to you.

and what you wrote about your husband being the child of a narcissistic and abusive set of parents. well, they say the child of the narcissist has it the "worst". it sounds to me like he's been so brow-beaten that he's not seeing things for how they really are.

and let's not forget you have a second child coming, one with several years of diapering ahead of him or her. if, as it sounds like to me, your mom gets her kicks out of "tickling" the genitals of little kids, then her "prudishness" is her cover story, the face she shows to those old enough to know that "tickling" is totally inappropriate sexual stimulation of children.

if this is how it is with her, i would have no way of knowing what happened to cause this compulsion in her. but to knowingly let it go on would seem to facilitate it continuing in future generations of your family.

happily, you seem to be coming to a place of realization and i give you so much credit for that. it's the first step in recovery from the trauma *you* suffered. and critical to preventing your children from suffering it as well.

is there any possible way you can find yourself a good talk therapist to work with you on finding your way through this situation? you might have to try a few but i've found with the issues i've dealt with (divorce, depression), the most expensive are not necessarily the best. it was about 10 years ago for me, but i found a great talk therapist who was only $20 an hour. and it helped so much to have an uninvolved impartial supporter who is schooled in these kind of "family" issues. my ex husband has addiction to porn and while this is different than what you're dealing with, it has some of the same elements. and it affects you when you are a close personal relation with a person with this type of problem. it might be possible that this could be a real healing opportunity for you.

i encourage you to check it out and by all means keep posting here. everybody is rooting for you to find your true voice and spirit... to find your way out of the forest of darkness so to speak.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 

I just "know" my mom.



Really? Then why'd you ever leave a kid with her in the first place?

I think you're still in denial.

And while getting over denial is painful, I hope you do it fast enough to protect your kids.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Really? Then why'd you ever leave a kid with her in the first place?

I think you're still in denial.

And while getting over denial is painful, I hope you do it fast enough to protect your kids.

Ouch. Short and painful. And dismissive of everything else I said.

I AM protecting my child right now while he's vulnerable and needs protecting. After he gets to a certain age of independance in certain departments, he no longer needs my protection *from her*. As I mentioned, after I became old enough to remember stuff, to discuss stuff, her behavior totally ceased. The queasiness I felt around her being around little babies and toddlers went away once those same kids grew old enough to speak very well and take care of themselves.

I'v never felt comfortable leaving him with her when he was much younger...I did it against my comfort level because I had to work, and I did not see anything that confirmed that my "feelings" were on point. Once I started to see little hints that justified my feelings I quit my job and became a sahm again (even though doing it right now puts us an a financial tightening...)

I guess now that I'm looking toward the future of the situation with clearer eyes and can see "when" my mother is a danger and when she's not, since I'm not seeing her as a danger but as a harmless old woman *once my kids get past a certain age*, I'm a unprotective mother? LIke what I'm trying to do up to that point means nothing? I guess I was pretty sure once I revealed that she's not a threat after my kids are verbal and past a certain age the conversation would go this way.









I'm sitting here trying to figure out, if I "seem to be" open minded enough now to explore my intuitive tugs, as mysterious as they are, about leaving my child with my mom for now, and to act on those intuitions, why would I completely turn my back on that same open mindedness and those same intuitive feelings if they were there in the future? I wouldn't do that, unless those same feelings of danger were not there after a certain point.

I guess what I'm saying is, as it stands now, we'll leave things like they are, no unsupervised visits, and we're moving away. I'll reinvestigate these feelings in the future and see if I feel the same way. I trust myself that if I still have bad feelings even when my child is older and more verbal and more independant, that I'll act on those feelings the same way as I'm doing now by continueing the no unsupervised visits stand.

ElliesMom
YOu are on point when it comes to my husband being the child of a narcissist. He's conditioned to believe nothing is ever a parent's fault, always his. His mother could do anything she wanted to him, and if he never "spoke up", no matter how awful whatever she did obviously was, it was as if it never happenned. That is his mind play he's trying to play out right now. Since my parents are getting a little bit annoyed, and we haven't "sat down and told them" what bothers us, then to him, shouldn't it be as if stuff never happenned? We should all act happy and normal? He used to be awful about this, but he's getting MUCH better about it, and can at least at this point, when I sit down and discuss with him stuff, identify when he's doing this.

As for having another child on the way, nope. She won't be babysitting this child alone for a long long time to come. For this reason, and also to kinda slim down the issues I have with her with my other kid, I'm trying to move away from here.

My husband has been talking about me talking to some one to work through this, and I'm still considering it. I don't know why goign to some one to talk about it is giving me such hesitation. I have not problems going to seek help for other issues i have, like for my ad/hd, or my depression. for some reason, the thought of going to see so me one specifically to talk about this problem gives me pause. I AM going to do it though. I have to find some one I trust.


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## ShannonT (Dec 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 

I AM protecting my child right now while he's vulnerable and needs protecting. After he gets to a certain age of independance in certain departments, he no longer needs my protection *from her*. As I mentioned, after I became old enough to remember stuff, to discuss stuff, her behavior totally ceased. The queasiness I felt around her being around little babies and toddlers went away once those same kids grew old enough to speak very well and take care of themselves.

I've never felt comfortable leaving him with her when he was much younger...I did it against my comfort level because I had to work, and I did not see anything that confirmed that my "feelings" were on point.

I guess now that I'm looking toward the future of the situation with clearer eyes and can see "when" my mother is a danger and when she's not, since I'm not seeing her as a danger but as a harmless old woman *once my kids get past a certain age*, I'm a unprotective mother? Like what I'm trying to do up to that point means nothing? I guess I was pretty sure once I revealed that she's not a threat after my kids are verbal and past a certain age the conversation would go this way.










But who's to say that your child is actually *going to* speak up when grandma touches him inappropriately? What if your son is compliant in it? Too ashamed to say anything? Too nice to hurt grandma's feelings? I'm pretty sure that's how sexual molesters work.

And really, do you ever want him to be in that situation where he has to be the one protecting himself from grandma? It's your job to protect him, no matter how old or verbal or independent he is.









I know you plan on moving away and staying away from her as much as you can, but I really think you need to consider no unsupervised visits EVER.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

ugh. nevermind.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShannonT* 
But who's to say that your child is actually *going to* speak up when grandma touches him inappropriately? What if your son is compliant in it? Too ashamed to say anything? Too nice to hurt grandma's feelings? I'm pretty sure that's how sexual molesters work.

And really, do you ever want him to be in that situation where he has to be the one protecting himself from grandma? It's your job to protect him, no matter how old or verbal or independent he is.









I know you plan on moving away and staying away from her as much as you can, but I really think you need to consider no unsupervised visits EVER.









:

And, FTR, I didn't dismiss you. Just disagreed with you.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

First of all, I completely sympathize re: your feelings that your mother is trying too hard to "mother" rather than "grandmother" your son. I felt from the beginning of my pregnancy that I would need to work hard to make sure that we did not slip into this kind of situation with my mother, and she knows my feelings (I explained them briefly, preemptively, when I told her that I didn't want her to come stay with us postpartum). My mom was always a SAHM, and my brothers left for college 2 mos after DD was born, so I knew she was going through empty-nesting and would probably try to find an uncomfortable-for-me amount of fulfillment in DD. Thankfully, my mom has tried very hard to honor my feelings, but it still bothers me a teensy bit when she says things like, "You're my heart!" "You're my girl!" "I have never been so happy in my whole life!" I don't suspect that my mom would ever, ever do anything to hurt DD. Nevertheless, her devotion (almost obsession) is just so out there. I guess it brings up feeling that I had as a child that I could never really love my mother enough to make up for all the sacrifices she made for me, and I don't want DD to feel the same burden.

Also, I know what you mean about the diaper changing/potty training. I told everyone from the beginning that there was never any reason for anyone else to change DD if I were in the area (I even left instructions for nursery workers never to change her but to page me in church). Even when she was a newborn, I felt like this was establishing a good principle of protecting her privacy.

Finally, re touching which is really inappropriate. I have read "Protecting the Gift," and I thought it was really helpful. If anything, I think I am too concerned about the possibility of my child being abused in some way. I have no reason to suspect anyone in my family, have never had any bad intuition, etc, but I still wonder if I will ever feel comfortable leaving her alone with her uncles or fathers of friends. My own mom used "the talk" as an opportunity to warn me about molestation, and for a long while I was really terrified of men. I didn't want my dad to kiss me goodnight, etc--- the existence of sex was very scary for me. I don't want to communicate these fears to my DD, but I don't think that the concern is invalid. It's just a hard issue. Which leads back to your problem, I think--
The sexuality of children is a very difficult topic to think/talk about (because if we worry so much about abuse it overly sexualizes them, but if we ignore it "who knows what might happen". I know there are lots of different views (freudian, kinsey-an (however you spell that...), and more traditional views of innocence/experience). I think sometimes adults, even without knowing it, are fascinated by the "innocence" of children and by the power that the adult has in seeing the child's nakedness while the child does not understand what it all means (this is realy convoluted, but I'm working through these ideas myself). My mom once said, while looking at my daughter naked during a diaper change, "Oh, just look at her little body!" It made me uncomfortable, and not because I suspected that my mom would ever do anything untoward-- just because it seemed (weirdly, because she certainly didn't care) like an invasion of my daughter's privacy.
If your mother had a bad relationship withr her own father, and if her mother was also crazy, then she may be exploiting this feeling of power by interacting way too much with your son's "nakedness" (and I deliberately use that word instead of "penis," because it sounds to me like more of a power issue than a sexual issue. Mothers have a bodily intimacy with their children which no one else (except a spouse, really) ever experiences-- carrying them, birthing them, nursing them, etc-- your mother seems like she is trying to claim that sort of intimacy with your son. As an aside to that, I read a set of parenting stories (I think maybe this was by Meg Wolitzer? or an interview with her?), and she talks about how it really was weird when she realized that her sons did not want to be naked around her anymore. It was a sign they were growing up, and as stange asit was to see modesty/not-seeing-my-son's-penis-anymore as a milestone, it kindof became one.

All of that is to say-- I think the people saying, "you were sexually abused" or "she's going to abuse your son" are _perhaps_ overreacting. It's true, nothing is more important than protecting your son, and it does seem like your mother has seriously boundary issues, and you would need to address those whatever the manifestation. Your mother is exerting too much ownership over your son's body-- that should be stopped. But I think your feeling (that she only does this with young children) makes a lot of sense. Once they reach that point of modesty/awareness/etc that Wolitzer recognized in her own sons, whatever she's getting out of it also disappears.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. It sounds very hard-- and it's too bad your H isn't more supportive.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
First of all, I completely sympathize re: your feelings that your mother is trying too hard to "mother" rather than "grandmother" your son. I felt from the beginning of my pregnancy that I would need to work hard to make sure that we did not slip into this kind of situation with my mother, and she knows my feelings (I explained them briefly, preemptively, when I told her that I didn't want her to come stay with us postpartum). My mom was always a SAHM, and my brothers left for college 2 mos after DD was born, so I knew she was going through empty-nesting and would probably try to find an uncomfortable-for-me amount of fulfillment in DD. Thankfully, my mom has tried very hard to honor my feelings, but it still bothers me a teensy bit when she says things like, "You're my heart!" "You're my girl!" "I have never been so happy in my whole life!" I don't suspect that my mom would ever, ever do anything to hurt DD. Nevertheless, her devotion (almost obsession) is just so out there. I guess it brings up feeling that I had as a child that I could never really love my mother enough to make up for all the sacrifices she made for me, and I don't want DD to feel the same burden.

Also, I know what you mean about the diaper changing/potty training. I told everyone from the beginning that there was never any reason for anyone else to change DD if I were in the area (I even left instructions for nursery workers never to change her but to page me in church). Even when she was a newborn, I felt like this was establishing a good principle of protecting her privacy.

Finally, re touching which is really inappropriate. I have read "Protecting the Gift," and I thought it was really helpful. If anything, I think I am too concerned about the possibility of my child being abused in some way. I have no reason to suspect anyone in my family, have never had any bad intuition, etc, but I still wonder if I will ever feel comfortable leaving her alone with her uncles or fathers of friends. My own mom used "the talk" as an opportunity to warn me about molestation, and for a long while I was really terrified of men. I didn't want my dad to kiss me goodnight, etc--- the existence of sex was very scary for me. I don't want to communicate these fears to my DD, but I don't think that the concern is invalid. It's just a hard issue. Which leads back to your problem, I think--
The sexuality of children is a very difficult topic to think/talk about (because if we worry so much about abuse it overly sexualizes them, but if we ignore it "who knows what might happen". I know there are lots of different views (freudian, kinsey-an (however you spell that...), and more traditional views of innocence/experience). I think sometimes adults, even without knowing it, are fascinated by the "innocence" of children and by the power that the adult has in seeing the child's nakedness while the child does not understand what it all means (this is realy convoluted, but I'm working through these ideas myself). My mom once said, while looking at my daughter naked during a diaper change, "Oh, just look at her little body!" It made me uncomfortable, and not because I suspected that my mom would ever do anything untoward-- just because it seemed (weirdly, because she certainly didn't care) like an invasion of my daughter's privacy.
If your mother had a bad relationship withr her own father, and if her mother was also crazy, then she may be exploiting this feeling of power by interacting way too much with your son's "nakedness" (and I deliberately use that word instead of "penis," because it sounds to me like more of a power issue than a sexual issue. Mothers have a bodily intimacy with their children which no one else (except a spouse, really) ever experiences-- carrying them, birthing them, nursing them, etc-- your mother seems like she is trying to claim that sort of intimacy with your son. As an aside to that, I read a set of parenting stories (I think maybe this was by Meg Wolitzer? or an interview with her?), and she talks about how it really was weird when she realized that her sons did not want to be naked around her anymore. It was a sign they were growing up, and as stange asit was to see modesty/not-seeing-my-son's-penis-anymore as a milestone, it kindof became one.

All of that is to say-- I think the people saying, "you were sexually abused" or "she's going to abuse your son" are _perhaps_ overreacting. It's true, nothing is more important than protecting your son, and it does seem like your mother has seriously boundary issues, and you would need to address those whatever the manifestation. Your mother is exerting too much ownership over your son's body-- that should be stopped. But I think your feeling (that she only does this with young children) makes a lot of sense. Once they reach that point of modesty/awareness/etc that Wolitzer recognized in her own sons, whatever she's getting out of it also disappears.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. It sounds very hard-- and it's too bad your H isn't more supportive.

Bless you. It was SO HARD for me to convey the age thing. That my mom is not a "sexual predator". She's got boundary issues. She invades a small child's privacy too much, to the point that her good-heartedness and good intentions are damaging, yes--Even that maybe she gets a little "something" out of that. That she has control issues. But that she is not out to literaly prey on her grandchildren. That after the "helping" stage, the problem is no longer there. She no longer attempts at ANYTHING once a child is independant in those areas. Attempting anything and trying to convince the child to hush it away is something she's never doen and never would do. That as long as my child is independant about those things, it wouldn't be an issue of him having to protect himself...the very fact that his is independant in those areas in itself totally resolves the issue.

To have the idea thrown at me that this is DEFINITELY something my mother WOULD TRY to do makes me kinda disappointed that maybe I've portrayed my mother in that light. I've definitely got some big problems with my mom...but that specific idea of her is totally inaccurate. She definitely does NOT behave like a typical sneaky sexual predator, even through all of her problems.


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

Hey again,

No advice here, just wanted to say I'm here to support you and I think you are an amazing mom. I think many women would be so uncomfortable with these feelings they'd just push them away, but you are working hard to be honest with yourself and figuring this all out and I really admire that. I wish you and your family the best, keep posting here, we all want to support you.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

I'm notorious for being real firm about protecting our children. I read PTG, and it simply confirmed for me what I already knew, which de Becker, the author, announces in the beginnng: that we already KNOW what to do.

You are doing right by your child, keeping your eyes on the ball, and THAT is hard to do when you've got Mr. Goes the Way the Wind Blows in your corner. You and your backbone are everybody on the team, gaby's mom, and thank goodness it's you and not someone more reactionary or wimpy.

What you described remembering about your mother did not sound like a pathological issue in itself, but more likely a misguided comprehension of sexuality, sexual feelings, and sexual developement based on ignorance of childrens' and probably HER OWN body.

I see your approach, gaby's mom, to the situation/s as being vigilant in a real admirable way, not overreacting, and not underresponding. Some parents ARE oddly destructive, cold, and inept with babies and toddlers, and just barely manage to survive parenthood when their children become young PEOPLE to them and they are ABLE to relate and be good parents. Same with grandparents.

I mean, IF you can preserve your family without tying yourself into an emotional pretzel, then it's good for everybody and it's so worth fighting for. Grandparents can be such a wonderful source of identity and nurturing love, for both the grandchild AND the child, who may be seeing their parent show love to THEIR children that they never showed them. That's a huge healing if you can get it, so I don't think we should cast it off so quickly as some here would seem to be suggesting.

Preserving the extended family can't always be done, and if it has to be taken apart, it is grueling and horrible and lonely and bitter and very, very hard to complete with any sense of self-assurance that you're doing right by everyone involved.

Standing by you Gaby's mom. Remain confident and strong.

VF


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Thank you, viewfinder. Your words never cease to be deep and meaningful. It's late, and my brain is scattered for the evening, as it is every evening, so I'll come back tomorrow further ponder over your post.

And thanks for your support, kathteach


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## Kelly Jene (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know you or your situation (other then what has been posted). I only can say to continue listening to your intuition. Your child's pic is so sweet and beautiful. He has you to protect him and that's what is most important. Some children don't have that. God bless!


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

I have read some (though not all) of this thread, and I agree with most posters: trust your gut. If your gut is telling you (and has for decades!) that something is "off", listen to it, and don't feel the least bit doubtful or guilty for doing so.

And if your gut tells you that this will not be an issue when your child is older, I'd listen to that, too. I'm suprised so many people are saying listen now but don't listen later. Your instincts are not going to turn off, and I hope that you always have the strength, courage, and conviction to listen to them no matter what they tell you.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I'm sorry to rant some more, but

Dad AND Mom!!!!!!

You don't call me and TELL ME WHEN and what time you're going to come and pick up my child!!! He's not yours!!

YOU ASK ME! AND, ONCE AGAIN, THE ANSWER IS NO!! NOT. WITHOUT. ME. Newsflash: We are a family with our own schedules and our own prearranged plans! You don't swoop in and take the grandchild whenever you feel like it!

Do all grandparents feel so entitled!!?? IS THIS NORMAL??????


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Of course, I call the husband, and after ALL. OF. THIS. CRAP---

---he thinks I should just let them keep him.















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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

No. It is not normal.










-Angela


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

This is seriously bringing out the issues and dysfunction in both my family AND my marriage.

I want to run away from everybody and never come back. I can't keep dealing with this #$%^ alone all by myself. I'm starting to feel like I"m seriously going crazy.

I'm trying to keep a handle on my sanity. I'm pregnant and trying to make it without my medication. The walls of the ridiculous people in my life are caving in on me. And I don't know what to do.

I mean, it's hard enough to have to fight with my family, but it's even harder to have to fight with them AND fight with my husband every time I'm fighting with them too.

Maybe it is just me. I can't do this anymore.


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## pokeyrin (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
This is seriously bringing out the issues and dysfunction in both my family AND my marriage.

I want to run away from everybody and never come back. I can't keep dealing with this #$%^ alone all by myself. I'm starting to feel like I"m seriously going crazy.

I'm trying to keep a handle on my sanity. I'm pregnant and trying to make it without my medication. The walls of the ridiculous people in my life are caving in on me. And I don't know what to do.

I mean, it's hard enough to have to fight with my family, but it's even harder to have to fight with them AND fight with my husband every time I'm fighting with them too.

Maybe it is just me. I can't do this anymore.

Megahugs to you mama









I've been following your thread and my heart really goes out to you. I may not know what it's like to be in your particular situation, but I do know what it's like to deal with toxic family members who consistently overstep boundaries.

Please don't think it's you and that you are doing this to yourself. It's not you, it's the selfish people around you who are discounting your needs and placing their own before yours. It doesn't sound like they respect your wishes and boundaries and that's wrong because your feelings deserve to be heard and validated.

You sound like a very kind person who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and you're also in a vulnerable state of mind. Having this kind of stress is definitely not healthy for you, baby and your little boy. Your first priority is to protect yourself, your baby and your little boy and you should feel entitled to take whatever measures you need to do that. Everyone and their feelings is secondary when it comes to your own mental well being. Remember no one is going to protect you, you're going to have to do it yourself.

Drawing boundaries with family, especially your own parents is probably one of the toughest and hardest things a person can ever do. No matter how right you may be, there is always a nagging guilt and you end up feeling like the bad one. I will be honest and tell you from personal experience that it is never easy to draw the boundaries and you will upset people and sometimes look like the bad guy. But sometimes that's just what it takes to set those boundaries and have them respected.

With your parents it sounds like you need to be very firm in order to draw your boundaries. It will probably upset them, hurt their feelings and maybe even piss them off. But they will get over it sooner or later. Trust me it's better to deal with a bit of hurt feelings and drama that will pass rather than having to constantly deal with a stressful situation that's never addressed.

I just imagine that every time you have to talk or see them you probably feel a sense of dread and just want to completely avoid the situation and wish they would go away so you wouldn't have to deal with the stress of thinking about what you have to do in order to deal with them. Living in that state is extremely exhausting and just zaps the life out of you.

It's hard, but don't be afraid to draw those boundaries and don't feel like you have to explain yourself. We can't control how we feel about things and sometimes it's just the way it is and you have a right to draw those boundary lines and have them respected. Anyone who oversteps and disrespects those boundary lines automatically gets limited access to you until they learn. Believe me if you don't follow through on that, they'll never get it.

I know it's a delicate situation with your Mom and you can't just say outright what's bothering you. But you don't have to single her out, but just tell her that you don't want anyone (not just her) but you and your hubby to potty train/change diapers for your child and that's the end of discussion. Tell her it's not just off limits to her, but everyone and if she can't respect that then you'll just have to take a step back until she can respect that. If she protests and makes an issue of it, then turn it around on her and ask her why it's such a big deal to her to do the very things that you just don't want anyone else but you and your hubby to do.

It doesn't matter how she answers, because there is no reasonable thing she can come up with that will validate her need to participate in the things that you don't want her to do especially when you are clearly available to handle it. You just need to keep reiterating to her that you're his parent and that you feel that only you and your hubby should do the parenting. Grandparents should not be parenting their grandchildren, it's the parent's job otherwise it can send your child mixed signals and undermine your authority.

Right now it sounds like everything is very heightened and you're feeling very cornered and harassed. If you don't want to make it about your parents, make it about yourself and don't feel bad. Just tell them with your pregnancy you're feeling stressed and disconnected from your hubby and son. Don't feel the need to explain yourself, because remember pregnant women feel all kinds of things for whatever reason









Tell them that you just need space to recoup and that you can reconnect with your own family and that means no visits and no unannounced visits. Reassure them that it won't last forever, just that you really need this time to be left alone and would appreciate if they would respect that. If they don't respect it, then feel free to shut them out until they do.

Best wishes to you mama, I'm sending out positive thoughts to you.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

It isn't just you. I know it feels that way sometimes, but it isn't.









I know how crazy-making weird/toxic family members can be, especially parents. My own family of origin is a fine example of Standard American Dysfunction. DH's parents put the "fun" in the word personally. Crazy parents were one of the things that we had in common. It blows when you can't have the "normal" family relationships that you think everyone else gets to enjoy. I know all about it.

I am lucky, in that my family lives several states away and we don't spend a lot of time with them, so babysitting has never been an issue. DH's folks, on the other hand, live fairly close and are always offering. We've taken them up on it exactly three times- the last in an emergency. Each time, something "off" has happened. So now we turn them down, politely, every time. They grizzle about it to other family members (and we hear about the complaints 2nd and 3rd hand) but they have yet to ask why directly. I don't feel that we need to explain ourselves. Our child, our wishes. There is no room for debate. She isn't community property and we aren't taking a vote. We just politely decline and ask after the bean dip.

It sucks to have nobody you trust to babysit your child. I'm right there with ya.









The good news is that you KNOW it can't just be you. You have a whole bulletin board of people who think you're doing the right thing and we're not even there personally!

YOU HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE INTERNET!!!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I talked to my husband more last night, and he said he thought I was ASKING him if we should let him go or not...Which, I cleary WAS NOT. I was just relaying what my dad had just called and said. (And how is whether or not I was asking relevant to his answer? If that's what he thought, he should have said something along the lines, "I thought we'd agreed to what we were going to do..." istead of being like, "Duhhh, I dunno, I guess we could let him...







: " Anyhow, I digress.)

So i asked him the following questions:

1) Whether or not it mattered to him WHY we were trying to not do unsupervised visits; i.e., did he think we had a valid reason; That is to say, whether or not he thinks this is all in my mind, or what?
-----He is adamant that it's not all in my mind. He says that he's felt these creepy weird feelings about my mom changing diapers before I said anything to him and was trying to push them away.

2) If, due to those feelings, he thought it was a good idea, or, was he in agreement with the whole no-unsupervised-visits-for-now thing, or if he thought it was too harsh.
-----He sais he think it's reasonable to not have unsupervised visits

He kept asking what we were going to say to them when they ask why not?
I told him I'd tell them the truth; that we are trying to potty train G right now, and I think it best that we just work on that ourselves until he gets it. And that they can gripe and grumble and complain all they want, that's just the way it is.

So then he keeps making some kind of vague comment about how he still thinks we should let "somebody" know what's going on, to talk about it, and see if we are "right" in our suspicions before doing anything like cutting them out.

I told him that he's looking for some one's authority to exercise his right as a parent. I told him we're not looking to convict anyone, or accuse my mom of anything sinister. If we TOGETHER as parents have an icky feeling about something regarding our kid, we have a right and a duty to act on it. We don't need to ask some one if it's right or not, if we should, or whatever. We don't need some outside "authority" to validate us. We have a right as parents to act on feelings we have to guard and protect our kids. Even if those feelings are vague and nonspecific, and maybe later turn out to be wrong, we have an obligation to our child to listen to those feelings.

So he was ok---------------------------------------------------------for now.

See the thing is, I don't really "trust" my husband.
Not that he'd lie to me in a bad way. (Well....that's for another thread.)

But I never know if he really REALLY agrees with me and is going to shoulder some of the burden of parenting with me, or whether or not he's just being a swayer.

He allows me to sway him too much. If I'm not swaying him my way, somebody else is swaying him their way. He has few solid firm convictions. And when the rain comes, in the midst of the confrontation, the showdown, or the point of action, I can never trust whether he is going to solidly have my back or not, even if he said at the time he would. But I won't go into too much on that, all of that belongs down i parents as partners, I guess.

But anyhow, thanks so much for the encouragement....i'm still a bit down and a bit untrusting as to whether i'm going to have to keep getting crap from my husband, (this is strikingly familiar to his behavior when cutting his mother out of his life, but I chalked it up to the fact that that was, his mother. I'm not even trying to "cut" my parents out of our lives as of now, and they are not his parents, but his behavior is the same.) But I'll keep trying, and I'll lay the boundary down with them.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I just wanted to jump in and tell you about a situation I had.

A family member had done something inappropriate to my daughter. When I was told about it, it was even framed in a way that put my daughter (who was barely 4) at fault. It was all very sly. This happened in a place and in the care of a person that I actually DID trust, without question.

I spent months, even years, questioning my feelings. I knew it was wrong, but I found all kinds of ways in my mind to think of it as "just nothing" or even normal. But when in came down to it, in my GUT, I KNEW it was wrong. I knew my daughter had been victimized, and I knew that the people saying otherwise were lying and hiding things to protect their own interests.

So I'll tell you what I did. I reframed my thoughts. This happened with a cousin. So, what if it had been a neighbor? A boy at church? It made my totally re-think things! Had it not been a cousin, in the care of an aunt I trusted, I honestly might have called the police. But past relationships and issues clouded things.

So please ask yourself, what if this was not your mother, but a neighbor? Even further, what if it was not a female neighbor, but a man? Does her being a woman, a grandmother, make her behavior more appropriate somehow?

For awhile in my mind I had made the decision to never see this section of my family again. But I knew that would tear my kids, and our extended family, in shreds. . . even more than it already is. The compromise we've made is that, if we ever see these people again, it will be in a wide-open, public place, like a park. And we'll be on top of everyone at all times. Frankly, I'd rather never see them again, but in the wide scope, this is a better decision. And we will be in control of things AT ALL TIMES. No one will ever have the power to tell us what we should do with our children or where, and no one will have the opportunity to act in ways we don't approve of.

I hope that made sense. My heart really goes out to you. I know that for me, this has been probably the most painful thing I've had to work through. Definitely as a mother.

But in the end, the ONLY ONE I'll have to answer to is my child. In the end, did I do enough to protect her?

Please ask yourself the same.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

ITA with the above poster.

Remove your EMOTION from the situation and replace the word "mother" with "babysitter" -- if a babysitter were doing all of these things you mention, and was giving you all these feelings you talk about having, you would fire the babysitter.

I know it's hard but you really really have to protect your son. I know you know that, but you may even have to do it with making your husband angry.







For the time being.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 

Remove your EMOTION from the situation and replace the word "mother" with "babysitter" -- if a babysitter were doing all of these things you mention, and was giving you all these feelings you talk about having, you would fire the babysitter.


Exactly. You don't say, "well, maybe I'll give this babysitter another chance after my child is potty-trained."


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I appreciate all the wonderful support that I received from this thread and all the helpful suggestions.

As I've said before moving on to more recent happennings and happennings in the immediate future, I"ve made my decision to keep the no unsupervised visits stance until I feel comfortable enough to remove it. That may be never. That may after potty training, who knows? It stays in effect for right now, while my intuitive feelings of being uncomfortable are through the roof. That is the most important part.

That in itself is hard enough to do and implement, as people who are actually paying attention by now can see in my more recent posts. My intention of this thread was not for decisions that I may or may not make in the distant future to be criticised, but to help get over the whole difficulty of putting this new rule regarding grandma into effect "now", since now is the time that it really bothers me. I expect that once that rule is in place and everyone has gotten used to it, it would be easy for me to just leave that rule there in the future should I feel the need to. Therefore, the expiration date of that rule was not something that I felt the need to discuss, neither did I wish to, nor was it the purpose of this thread.

The whole initiation process of this new boundary was what is most difficult to me at the moment, what with trying to figure out if I'm justified in my suspicions or not, and just how to go about starting the process of protecting my child from those suspicions.

I never really meant for this thread to spiral out into cries of what an unfit mother I am because I may or may not feel these rules necessary in the future when my child is independant in potty and bathing practices.

The bottom line is, no one here "knows" my mother. I do. I've learned here from wonderful people and from wonderful book suggestions that I've "known" what I need to know about her all along. And I know what I know, and I know what to do with those realizations now.

I think I've pretty much received what I was looking for in this thread; that is to say, clues that my suspicions are valid or not.

I'm going to ask the moderators to close this thread now so that it won't get too much out of hand, as it seems to be headed that way.

Thanks again everyone for the wonderful support that I knew I could count on MDC for.







And for those who suggested it, I think I'll take the suggestion that if I have more difficulty with this situation in the near future, I intend to deal with it in some kind of counseling or therapy. Thanks so much again.


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