# Witnessing abuse. I just don't know what to do.



## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

I know there have been discussions about this before, but I just need some fresh and specific ideas.

I live in Chicago and take public transportation everyday. I feel like I regularly witness outright, undeniable child abuse on the bus and train. Parents smacking toddlers faces, yelling at their babies to "Shut the *&%$ up!" while they violently shake their strollers, parents shoving and hitting older children and telling them they are going to "beat the living #&*!" out of them when they get home.

Okay, so here's my deal. I have anxiety issues period that are usually already heightened when on crowded busses and trains (I feel trapped and overwhelmed by intense noises, smells, etc). I also have my own abuse traumas and witnessing violence of any kind makes me shut down. Also, 90% of the time, my 9 year old daughter is with me.

So, those issues withstanding, what should/can I do when I witness this? Because I know I should be doing something. Every time I witness and incident it haunts me and haunts and haunts me. I feel guilty and angry with myself for not doing anything. I feel that my complacency is contributing to the abuse of these children.

But, it starts happening, I freeze, don't know what to do, have a total internal meltdown freak out and then either my stop or their stop comes and that's the end of it. And I spend the rest of the day wondering, "Why didn't I do something? What should I have done? But, oh my god, that mother was so, so angry and she would've freaked on me and I have had dd with me... Should I have told the bus driver? Yeah, right, they would've laughed me off the bus... Should I call the police and give them a description of the person and where they got off the bus and what direction they headed? Would the police take me seriously?" And so on and so on.

This morning dd and I were riding the bus to her school. This woman had a 1.5 to 2 year old in a stroller facing away from her. The child was screaming and crying, the kind where they are gagging and retching. She'd ignore him, ignore him, ignore him and then she'd either yank the stroller really hard or hit him on the top of his head and tell him to, "Shut the *&%$ up!" Then she started holding her hand over his mouth. Oh my god, it was so awful. It was six hours ago and my stomach is still in knots. The bus was so packed and no one, including me, did a thing. The poor little one finally gave up and stopped crying.

Please don't flame me. I know I should do something, but what?


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

bumping


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

moved to Parenting


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
The poor little one finally gave up and stopped crying.

shonasmom for the mom the reason for her behaviour is rigth there. ignore him got the desired result.

i dont really know what to say. i dont think the main thing is children being mistreated. i think its about watching something abhoring to us and realising how powerless we are.

i am sure you would have the same reaction if you saw the homeless children in south america or the poverty in say india or bangladesh.

i feel i dont really have the right to say anything to you because i am not in your shoes - and so who am i to say anything.

we all have our achilles heel and i am sorry that you have to witness yours every single day.

please let me say while you feel soooo much compassion - remember you dont have to have the solution.

maybe you can be involved in some form of activism. would that help? volunteering somewhere.

i have two areas myself. all the depressed lonely people as well as parenting issues. it just blows me away that life doesnt have to be this way.

so for me i am trying to find grassroots organisations to be involved in. i am also researching how to come up with community events ideas that will bridge the gap. esp. with parenting. that will show the way to other moms that there IS another way of parenting. and funding is available to do that where i am.

i dont know what else to say. and you know what i also feel for them. those moms doing what they are doing. they dont know any better. under a lot of stress. and always assuming due to lack of knowledge that kids behave and understand like adults.

apart from this mama - i dont know what to say. all i can offer you are some big


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I feel for you. As a former user of CTA, I have also witnessed similar situations and one time did I intervene. It was on the CTA train downtown to Oak Park.

It was a father letting his toddler daughter wander around the train car. Everytime she would get out of his sight, he would yell her name and loudly say "Get your *&#@! back here before I beat the #@$%^ out of you."

The bad language continued for several minutes and I could tell that another couple with a small child sitting nearby was getting uncomfortable hearing it. The swearing was really bad. We're talking f-words used as nouns, verbs, and adjectives.

I turned to the man and said in the nicest way possible, "Your daughter is adorable but your language is really ugly and it's upsetting."

Not only did he FLIP OUT, he got in my face, swore at me, called me a racist and continued to rant loudly until he got off on his stop.

So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Sorry you had to witness this.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Maybe bring an ipod with some soothing music and noice canceling headphones? There was nothing you could have done. Maybe if you can find a mantra, you can say that in your head. And if you feel up to it, maybe find a way to volunteer with a group that works to prevent child abuse through education. That way you'll be putting positive energy towards the problem, even if you can't do anything at a particular instance.


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## MyZoeJane (Aug 13, 2004)

I am a bit teary-eyed imagining how you must have felt in that situation. I admit, as a mother I sometimes lose my cool... and I'd like to say that I haven't ever let my DD get to me enough that I let myself do something I wasn't proud of. I've swatted her bottom a few times and once I even told her to "shut up!" when I was trying to hear something on the radio and she had repeatedly ignored my requests for quiet so I could hear what I felt *at the time* was an important discussion on NPR. Boy, did I feel horrible that night.

But I'm not making excuses for what that mother was doing to her child. That poor child! I hate it when I see parents letting their children suffer because they have come to adopt the archaic belief that spanking and yelling is a GOOD way to exercise control over their kids. But my guess is that that mom was feeling pretty darned terrible herself. So in a sense, my heart breaks for both of them.

When I see parents behaving badly, it affects me, too. I feel the overwhemling urge to scoop up their child and snuggle and hug them and whisper kind words to them... Seeing a child in pain, either emotionally or physically pulls my heartstrings like a bulldozer.

So, when I see a child being tratedly poorly, I immediately try to spot a child being loved, because in most situations, there isn't anything I really can do for the sad child. So, I look for a babe sleeping peacefully in a sling or a little girl walking along holding her mom's hand and taking in the world around her...

It takes a little bit of the sting out.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

Wright a letter to the editor of your local paper, etc.
Create a blog where you talk about these things you see - reference it.
Get people to see it without having to risk yourself to confront.


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## ma_vie_en_rose (Jun 7, 2008)

I was in a position last month where I witnessed a mother repeatedly hitting her young DD (my guess around 2.5yo) outside my dr's office. I did intervene in the situation, and it got very heated very quickly. I wrote a post about it in the GD forum looking for some advice on how I could have handled the situation better should I ever encounter it again.

These are two of the pieces of advice that I received and found to be extremely helpful. Mainly it is about using GD techniques on the parent in order to help deescalate the situation. I hope their advise is able to help you as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
It's too easy to armchair quarterback. I think you did fine.

For myself I've found the rare time I've been in that kind of situation that it really helps to empathise with the parent. I forget where I picked this up - the technique is right out of How to talk so kids will listen... but I think I read a discussion online too.

So I might say something like, "Wow they can be so hard to take out at this age!... You must be really frustrated and angry..." (and then this is hard to convey but quite often at that point the parent will often respond with a litany of "the bad day" and it's pretty easy to work in something like "I figured it must be a bad day to actually get to the point of hitting this precious little defenseless person." Or something a little less smarmy.)

It is really awesome how sometimes reflecting the person's feelings will diffuse a situation.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
I think I would focus on the empathy with the parent AND with the child. Even if you were approaching gently, you were approaching with judgment and that obviously made her defensive. Who knows what she is like the rest of the time, what her motivation is, whatever. Rather than speculate, maybe I would try to say:

"Can I help? You seem really frustrated! Are you frustrated (to parent)? Are you frustrated (to child)?" If the issue is just putting shoes on, sometimes diffusing the energy and having another person step in can "solve" that problem. Sometimes when ds doesn't want to do something that I want to do, like leave a store that is closing, it helps if a store employee can gently tell ds that the store is closing, they are going to lock the doors, whatever.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I've ridden buses and watched this kind of stuff go on all the time, too. One day this lady was pulling a little boy by the arm down the street telling him to keep up or she would beat his &*(&^. He didn't have a jacket on, and it was cold, and the lady had a big jacket on and so did the older child walking down the street.

I don't know what happened to me, but something in me snapped and I decided that this was the last time I would just watch.

I crossed the street (my 3 kids were with me, me holding the baby) and said in a loud, confrontational, but not mean voice "CAN I HELP YOU?" I looked the woman right in the eye. I think I must have freaked her out, because here is this shortie in her face with all these kids (I'm five feet tall). She didn't really respond to me, but I think it must have helped a bit... at least she stopped dragging the child and yelling at him for a minute.

Is it a situation where you could talk to the mother, say something like can I help you?

Could you also talk to the bus driver? I've known some very preachy bus drivers (for lack of a better term) who will stop the bus and go back and talk to people about their behavior, over something as little as drinking water on the bus...


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## deditus (Feb 22, 2006)

Well, I guess I will be the voice of dissent. Since becoming a parent, I have had to face similar issues with anxiety (crowding, noise, smells) and former verbal and physical abuse that are my triggers. For me, dealing with and healing my issues has allowed me to stick up for that child. I remember ma_vie_en_rose's thread and I agree with the techniques that she noted in her reply. By having the self-confidence to say something, you won't have to deal with the guilt. I know, easier said then done.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emgremore* 
Well, I guess I will be the voice of dissent. Since becoming a parent, I have had to face similar issues with anxiety (crowding, noise, smells) and former verbal and physical abuse that are my triggers. For me, dealing with and healing my issues has allowed me to stick up for that child. I remember ma_vie_en_rose's thread and I agree with the techniques that she noted in her reply. *By having the self-confidence to say something, you won't have to deal with the guilt.* I know, easier said then done.

You don't need to feel guilty if you don't do anything.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

woah hitting in public is a whole different story and here can get you arrested.

i have witnessed one in the grocery store when the cop was there.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

For the woman holding her hand over the babys face, call 911 if you ever see something like that again.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emgremore* 
Well, I guess I will be the voice of dissent. Since becoming a parent, I have had to face similar issues with anxiety (crowding, noise, smells) and former verbal and physical abuse that are my triggers. For me, dealing with and healing my issues has allowed me to stick up for that child. I remember ma_vie_en_rose's thread and I agree with the techniques that she noted in her reply. By having the self-confidence to say something, you won't have to deal with the guilt. I know, easier said then done.

Can you give me some examples where you stood up for a child in a similar situation and what the outcome is like?


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## robin1377 (May 26, 2005)

I don't have any advise but I did want to offer empathy. I recently moved to Chicago after living 8 years in San Francisco. I am APPALLED at the violence, verbal and physical, I see every day towards children. On the bus. Outside of my daughter's school. Everywhere. If anyone dared to smack a child across the face in public in SF someone would be on the phone to the police in a heartbeat. If a mother threatened to beat the #%$& out of a child when picking her up after school the teacher would call CPS immediately. It seems to me that something needs to be done to turn this around because I know it doesn't have to be this way. I know confronting a stressed out mother on the bus won't help anything. But where to start, ya know?


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## rivkah (Oct 9, 2008)

Wow! I really sympathize. I was once walking to school (over 13 years ago), and I heard this mother slapping and cussing at a screaming child for wetting the bed. I am still traumatized by it, and I sincerely wished I would have called social services and reported the abuse.

I too have witnessed the mother on the bus cussing at a child. It is so uncomfortable, especially as I am a small person with a high voice, and I get easily intimidated.

I can't honestly give you an opinion about when you have to let things go, and when you intervene. Sometimes, I see parents ignoring a screaming infant in a grocery cart and I just want to say "pick the baby up!" I also see people walking babies in strollers or carrying infant seats while smoking. I want to say something then also. But, I just let it go. Nobody is perfect! I have yelled at and ignored my children on occasion.

However, I agree with the above sentiment. Physical abuse is a different issue. I think if I ever see/hear physical abuse again, I will intervene. Talking to the bus driver may be an option. I witnessed a man "telling" on another mom at the library. It was very effective--the hitting mother saw the librarian as an authority figure, and not just a meddler.

One thing I can suggest is to talk to your daughter, since she is a witness. Let her know that this is not acceptable behavior, and that you feel badly for these children.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

While we feel really compelled to try to make the world a better place, particularly with regard to how children are treated, I don't think that it is the responsibility of anyone to change the parenting practices of anyone but themselves.
For starters, confronting a parent who is angry/frustrated enough to treat their child in such a way is very likely to end up with them taking that anger out on you instead, possibly putting you in physical danger. Secondly, even if you did manage to prevent the abuse at the time, it would almost certainly be only a very temporary fix. The parent in question is not going to change their whole behaviour and parenting outlook on the basis of an encounter with a stranger. To make the world a better place we would probably be better off encouraging 'good' behaviour. When you see an example of parenting that makes you feel awful, look around until you find an example of parenting you like and make a point of praising that parent for what they are doing right.
OP - you're pregnant and you usually have your daughter with you. There is absolutely no sense in trying to interfere directly and putting yourself and your children in a potentially dangerous situation. No one would expect you to - you shouldn't expect it of yourself.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisabeeprague* 
For starters, confronting a parent who is angry/frustrated enough to treat their child in such a way is very likely to end up with them taking that anger out on you instead, possibly putting you in physical danger.

OP - you're pregnant and you usually have your daughter with you. There is absolutely no sense in trying to interfere directly and putting yourself and your children in a potentially dangerous situation. No one would expect you to - you shouldn't expect it of yourself.









:

I think if you have to ride this bus every day, you have to be aware that someone might try retribution if you do confront them. I would try to anonymously through the public trans. authorities. Can you call the bus company? And tip them off that there is someone being assaulted on the bus, you are afraid to report it for your safety, but need an officer to ride the bus or something to make it stop.

And if it is serious, call the police non-emergency line and talk to them. Get the beat cops name, and call him...


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

We have a non-profit group here that offers parenting classes and assistance for "at-risk" families (families at risk of domestic abuse). Can you find something like that in the city, and keep their business cards/pamphlets with you in your purse? Then when you see a parent struggling, you can just give them the number and say something like, "I can see you're having a bad day. Maybe this can help."

Just a thought...


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## eggsandpancakes (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swd12422* 
We have a non-profit group here that offers parenting classes and assistance for "at-risk" families (families at risk of domestic abuse). Can you find something like that in the city, and keep their business cards/pamphlets with you in your purse? Then when you see a parent struggling, you can just give them the number and say something like, "I can see you're having a bad day. Maybe this can help."

Just a thought...

I like this. Just be careful. Any hint of criticism is going to get you in trouble, quick. Also, what about volunteering at the same place?


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## Nolamom (Jan 29, 2008)

_For starters, confronting a parent who is angry/frustrated enough to treat their child in such a way is very likely to end up with them taking that anger out on you instead, possibly putting you in physical danger._








:

Also, these people are already taking life's disappointments and anger out on their LOs. My fear is that the anger they feel from any confrontation will later be taken out on the children. In other words, I'm afraid a confrontation will not only not solve the problem, but will go on to make it worse.

For these reasons, I usually choose not to confront the parent.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

It is really hard. Like a previous poster, I have just moved and am confronting this on a scale I've never imagined. I moved from a city on the west coast where that kind of thing is just really unacceptable and wouldn't be tolerated in public, to a city on the east coast where everyone is well invested in the "mind your own business" approach which has allowed people to be awful.

I am a mandatory reporter in my state, so I have to report any abuse I witness or have reasonable cause to believe is occurring. When I don't really have any information on the person, it isn't possible to do much with that. I know some mandatory reporters try to chat it up with someone to find out names or child's school or where they are going or some kind of identifying info. However, I would second that it is a good idea to call the police if you are seeing physical stuff manifesting right in front of you.

That said, yesterday outside my office I was hearing a baby crying and a dad (from the temp shelter currently in the building) repeatedly yelling at the baby to just "shut up!" I was getting so anxious just listening. I finally went out to the room where they were, and I just observed for a couple minutes. Here is what I saw:

The mother was sitting on some stairs, and the baby was plopped down (sitting) on the floor about three feet from her. There were many bigger kids playing around her, and there was an (unpredictable) ball flying everywhere which helped make the baby feel vulnerable. It looked a couple of times like she was trying to scoot to her mom but couldn't get the mobility. That seemed to contribute to her frustation, especially since she seemed like she was needing some comfort. Another baby, who might have been her twin, was crawling around as well. The crying baby was obviously sick. She kept sneezing and all this snot would fly out all over her face, which would make the crying worse. Then her dad would come up behind her and without letting her know he was there, he would reach around and wipe her nose. She was taken by surprise and also hated getting wiped. Meanwhile he would yell at her "Oh, knock it off" when she responded with tears, and then he would proceed to pace around the room telling her to shut up and stop crying as he waited for the next sneeze and interacted with the other kids.

I went and knelt down beside the baby. I crouched as low down as I could so I was on her level and I looked at her and just tried to model what would have been a nurturing response. I said, "Oh sweetie! You sound really upset. What's the matter?" The mother continued to just sit there, and it seemed okay, so I rubbed/patted the baby's back lightly a couple times and said, "You sound so sick baby girl! I'm sorry. I am miserable when I am sick too."

This seemed to really click with the mom and she said, "I know! I've been telling her dad we need to take her to the doctor, but he doesn't want to." So when the dad came back over to wipe her nose again I just repeated, "She sounds so sick, poor thing!" He didn't yell after that, and after asking the mom how old the baby was and telling her she was a very sweet baby, she said thanks and then picked her baby up and went to talk to a friend. It seemed to have difussed the situation.

Sometimes I think ignoring the parents but engaging with the kid works well. It just breaks the tension and occupies both. Other times, I say things to my kids, loud enough for the offender to hear, that I think might help. For example I might have said, "Oh [3 y.o. ds], that baby is crying. She sounds so upset." And then ds pipes in, "What's the matter with her?" And I say, "I don't know, but it looks like she feels really sick. Isn't it crummy when you feel sick. I wonder what would make her feel better?" And then hopefully ds would pipe in that the baby might want to be cuddled or something like that.

Other times I say things to my kids, not really intending to intervene but more because I don't want my kids witnessing that stuff and thinking that it is okay, and it ends up being unintentionally overheard, which can make things better or worse depending on the person. For example, one time this woman was flipping out on her daughter in a parking lot, just screaming in her daughter's face. Sometimes going up and offering to help in situations like that is good, but in this case I got the feeling that wasn't going to fly. ds however, said, "What is she doing?" I told him she seemed really frustrated and was yelling, and I told him that yelling like that isn't okay and that the mommy should do something to calm herself down. I am not sure, but I think she overheard me, and she seemed to at least get a little more reasoned about what she was yelling rather than just hurling insults and calling her daughter names. I think it just reminded her that she was being heard. I've occassionally tried to gently point out reasons for a child's behavior that had become an inappropriate target of the abuse. For example, "He looks so tired! I remember doing that when I was tired when I was a kid too. Is it almost naptime?"

In extreme situations I've been known to say, "You should know that I'm a mandatory reporter" (not sure if you want to use it if you aren't, but maybe when you are desperate). Or just "whoah!" and then flashing an alarmed look their way to let them know, "I just saw that, and you were way out of line."

I gotta say though, like you, I often freeze up and regret it later. I totally empathize!


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

And again with the mainstream mom turned elsewhere POV:

Do you not think that the reason that the mom is doing this at this time, possibly, is because she's out in public, because the environment is crowded and the child is in sensory overload and is screaming because it's the only thing that makes them feel more right, and whatever she's doing, she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't? Someone in that bus is going to be judging her the minute her child starts screaming, and she's (wrongly) assuming that the only thing the other passengers want is to have a bit of hush. I don't believe the OP is in any danger, it's a struggling, overwrought parent- a human.

I like Sierra's idea of engaging directly with the child- I feel uncomfortable with talking with my children about what's going on in earshot, but if that works for her







: Keep a toddler-friendly snack in your pocket that you can share if you want to. Empathise with the tiredness. Play peekaboo. Develop an obsessive interest in balloon modelling in public. Blow bubbles! (I just thought of that, but I actually really like that idea.)

I'm wondering if you might find resources through the www.nspcc.org.uk website or whatever the US equivalent is for the prevention of child cruelty (Is there even one? I can't find it through googling...)


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

I witness the same kinds of things when I go to the WIC office. Some things that I try to do in addition to engaging the child is to start chit chatting with the mom. My mother lives in Chicago and I go visit her monthly, so I know that people there aren't real chit chatty with strangers, but if you start it they always join in. I'll say things that show empathy towards the mother, rather than angering her more by being real confrontational. I don't want her to get the "I'll show em!" type of attitude, thus taking more frustration out on the child, later. (am I making sense?)

Invite her to church or a bible study. Or ask if she can recommend one, by the end of your friendly conversation.

Or, if that isn't something you feel comfortable doing, carry some pamplets with you for organizations that help stressed moms cope. Just handing it to her as you or she exit the bus, without saying a word, says a lot.


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## maryeliz (Oct 27, 2005)

As I others have said, my dilemma is that by intervening I may make things worse for the child later on when no one is looking. It is also hard to know what to do when you don't have the whole story. I think most of us have had a moment in public when our parenting could look pretty ugly to others, but most of us are also loving parents overall.

Personally, I think shaming or trying to argue with angry parents is the wrong approach. It may make them stop in public, but they will take that added shame and anger home with them, and possibly take it out on their kids.

When I see this sort of parenting, sometimes I ignore it, and sometimes I try to engage the parent. I try to make eye contact and smile and say something like "Kid, they can drive you crazy." Then maybe I would make a comment about how cute the kid is, or how smart he or she seems. I've said things like "It's always the smart ones who give you a hard time. My hope is that this gives the parent a chance to vent, and then refocus on the love and pride they feel about their child. It can be really hard to be nice to people who are being horrible to their children, but for me it has felt like the best of a bunch of bad options.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I like Sierra's ideas for engaging/defusing, at least where it's a matter of anger or verbal abuse being directed at the child.

I've had a couple of instances where, instead of just shrinking inside when I hear a parent being verbally rough with a child, I've started to chat/empathize - once a mom was being really tough on a little guy, and I learned that they were on their way for a 'fun' day at an amusement park, but it involved a couple of hours on transit, her stroller partly broke half way, and his energy was driving her up the wall. I complimented him on how patient he was being, he played some with my daughter, the mom relaxed some...

With physical abuse, I don't know that I could do that. Here, if it was hitting a baby, hitting in the face, etc., it would be downright against the law, and even 'spanking' is not something I'm used to seeing. On one occasion I saw a grandma smack a girl on the bottom at an event. I was shocked and just kiind of thrown, and I'm sorry to say my first instinct was just to make sure my daughter hadn't seen, and move her onto another activity away from that family. She had smacked her for being curious/touching something, and looking back I wish I'd made a pleasant remark about how it's hard not to have curious hands at such an interesting place, and so on, but I didn't think of it at the time.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It's hard to see another human being suffer!

It's interesting, what Sierra and others mentioned about regional differences. I live in a Midwestern city (but not Chigaco). Yet I haven't witnessed stuff like this on public transportation, or at the WIC office for that matter.

But if I did, I probably wouldn't have the same response each time. My response would just depend on my gut feelings about each particular situation. I like the idea of trying to connect with both child and parent and empathizing, rather than being confrontational.

And I'm almost always with my kids when out in public, so I can understand about wanting to help them process what they're seeing and not think it's alright. A few years ago, when dd2 was a baby and dd1 was 5, we were at the library when a baby was crying in a stroller.

The mother was waiting in line to get help from the librarian, and had her 6yo daughter take over the baby and stroller. And the little girl was laughing at the crying baby, jiggling the stroller, and telling her to "shut up!" I do wish I'd gotten involved and helped sooth the baby -- but then I was holding my own baby on me in the sling, and I've found that when my babies are small I tend to not get as involved with "other people's babies."

My 5yo was pretty upset that the baby was crying and no one was comforting her. The mother did eventually get her help and then come back to her children; if I remember right, she never picked up the baby, but I think the baby eventually stopped crying.

If I ever have a similar situation, I think I might ask if it's okay if I pick up and hold the crying baby -- and of course I have done that at times, and maybe I could've even done it while holding my own baby. I'm finding that as my children grow, I'm moving beyond just being so focused on my own babies, and actually feel I have something to give "other people's kids" (when my help is welcomed).

And maybe I'd also encourage my child (if this is welcome), to stroke a crying child or make some funny faces to cheer her up. I think being able to help would have been a positive thing for my 5yo that day.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I just wanted to come back and say that while my approach always involves empathy for the parent, I haven't been able to convince myself to say the things Dear Abby once recommended (such as, "They are so tough at this age," or "Kids! They can drive you crazy!"). I think the reason for that is that I know most victims of abuse internalize a lot of blame for their own abuse, and I guess I just don't want to contribute to that. I think there are other ways to empathize with the parent without making their actions sound justifiable or reasonable.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I just wanted to come back and say that while my approach always involves empathy for the parent, I haven't been able to convince myself to say the things Dear Abby once recommended (such as, "They are so tough at this age," or "Kids! They can drive you crazy!"). I think the reason for that is that I know most victims of abuse internalize a lot of blame for their own abuse, and I guess I just don't want to contribute to that. I think there are other ways to empathize with the parent without making their actions sound justifiable or reasonable.

Very true!


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
I feel for you. As a former user of CTA, I have also witnessed similar situations and one time did I intervene. It was on the CTA train downtown to Oak Park.

It was a father letting his toddler daughter wander around the train car. Everytime she would get out of his sight, he would yell her name and loudly say "Get your *&#@! back here before I beat the #@$%^ out of you."

The bad language continued for several minutes and I could tell that another couple with a small child sitting nearby was getting uncomfortable hearing it. The swearing was really bad. We're talking f-words used as nouns, verbs, and adjectives.

I turned to the man and said in the nicest way possible, "Your daughter is adorable but your language is really ugly and it's upsetting."

Not only did he FLIP OUT, he got in my face, swore at me, called me a racist and continued to rant loudly until he got off on his stop.

*So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Sorry you had to witness this*.

I was born and raised in Chicago, so I know exactly what you are talking about







. Honestly and I know this sounds bad but whereas living in a small town in Maine (where I am at the moment) I feel ok about saying something. Truth is on CTA, I would be very hesitant because sad to say you could end with someone trying to assault you.









I guess I would say use your best judgement about whether or not intervening feels safe at that time. I wish I had more to say.

Shay


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## sweetieberlin (Mar 30, 2007)

I saw something today, that made me cry right in the sidewalk..

ds and I were cutting through a nice park with ducks and a lake, before we entered the area, I could hear, but not see something going on.. I heard a kid scream, then in German, a terrible mean voice, yelling "stop it", then a hard whack, you could tell they hit the kid, then the kid screamed again.. my ds decided he had to walk the way they were going, so I had to witness it the whole way around the lake.. the kid would start to say something or scream, and they would shout "stop it" at him.. they pulled and pushed and hit him around the whole lake.. when he walked by me, it seemed that maybe he had a disorder, and that maybe the yelling was a part of it.. how mean and cruel they were.. I was distraught all day..


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

This is really tough. I've learned a lot from PP's responses here. I too witness what i"d consider abuse on the bus and in the street/in the shops, but I'm quite afraid of aggression so I tend to steer clear. I do sometimes try to catch eyes with the mother to maybe give her support if she is just seeming very stressed (and i totally agree with what flapjack said, on the bus there is so much pressure to 'keep your kid quiet' and I too have felt that when my baby cries, worrying about what others think of me as a parent, etc, and its only bc I am more 'educated' about this stuff that i'm able to put that aside and still give DS what he needs regardless), but usually she is too angry.

I agree that people have bad days and that doesnt mean they're a bad parent generally,and that in looking on a situation we never know what preceded it, but physical abuse is a different matter...I don't know what I'd do if I saw it, but I've heard a lot that calling child protection can make things worse for a family (at least here in the u.k., i don't know about the u.s.)

Hugs to the OP...its so hard to see this stuff and feel helpless when you have a sore spot about it from your own past. I agree with trying to get involved in other ways, like charities/education, and just focusing on doing the best you can by YOUR kids, because sadly (and i rail against this all the time), we cannot do much about everyone else in the world.


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## Jannah6 (Aug 29, 2007)

I encounter things like this very very often





















. The cursing and yelling the smacking







. I'm always to afraid to say anything because I don't know how the parent is going to react to me. I really don't care if I'm screamed at, but I'd hate to encounter someone who will get violent.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Thanks for all of the replies. I sent an email to the CTA today asking for their input. Hopefully they'll give me some good input.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

This isn't anything about what you can do in this situation but the first story on here talks about helping parents change so that their children are more successful and stopping abuse is one of the things they work on.
It made me feel less afraid of the abuse for some reason and more empathetic to the human experience behind it. (Hard to explain)

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1262


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Create a blog where you talk about these things you see - reference it.
This could be a good outlet anyway. Describe the people as well as you can, maybe someone they know will see it. Write letters to the editor of your local paper with stories of what you're seeing. Who knows, maybe you'll end up doing an "Abuse on the Bus" article series.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

For starters, confronting a parent who is angry/frustrated enough to treat their child in such a way is very likely to end up with them taking that anger out on you instead, possibly putting you in physical danger.
While it's a possibility, I think that's highly unlikely. I think that people are far more comfortable treating children badly than they would an adult.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

I see this also, as I do ride the public bus. There are days that I just bring my Bible alone, or the children's Bible that always gave me comfort, so I can keep myself from jumping up and physically beating the crap out of those parents. I mean, who talks like that to a baby? Who? That children's Bible, because of its sentamental value, has proven to be extremely comforting in trying situations, and I make a practice of bringing it along when I KNOW I will be encountering something like this. It is like a focusing object. It is like something reassuring.

Right now, I'm discussing other outlets with my elders and mature sisters of my faith, as to how I can handle myself in those situations and what I can do when I feel rage coming up. Today, I was talking about this to a girlfriend of mine, and she suggested deep breathing and counting to ten. I know this has helped when I was upset about something: but, I have not had the chance to use it in a situation such as what you are speaking of, as it is new advice. I'm sure I'll have to use it very, very soon, as I'll be riding the public bus this afternoon. I can keep you updated as to how it works.

Thankfully, I've never gotten violent with the parents in these situations though I came pretty close. It helps that I know practically all the bus drivers since our county is small, and when they pull over the bus for break after the passengers are unloaded, I sometimes sit and talk to them and express my feelings. It helps that they listen.

I was abused when I was a little girl, so naturally, this stuff upsets me, especially when it is done to a baby who is helplessly dependent on their parents, and they cannot walk away when they don't like the way they are being treated let alone express it.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nolamom* 
_For starters, confronting a parent who is angry/frustrated enough to treat their child in such a way is very likely to end up with them taking that anger out on you instead, possibly putting you in physical danger._








:

Also, these people are already taking life's disappointments and anger out on their LOs. My fear is that the anger they feel from any confrontation will later be taken out on the children. In other words, I'm afraid a confrontation will not only not solve the problem, but will go on to make it worse.

For these reasons, I usually choose not to confront the parent.


Agreed, which is why I do not get involved. I don't only want them to hurt me; I don't want them to hurt their child more than they already are. I give it to God in hopes justice will be done.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
It is really hard. Like a previous poster, I have just moved and am confronting this on a scale I've never imagined. I moved from a city on the west coast where that kind of thing is just really unacceptable and wouldn't be tolerated in public, to a city on the east coast where everyone is well invested in the "mind your own business" approach which has allowed people to be awful.

I am a mandatory reporter in my state, so I have to report any abuse I witness or have reasonable cause to believe is occurring. When I don't really have any information on the person, it isn't possible to do much with that. I know some mandatory reporters try to chat it up with someone to find out names or child's school or where they are going or some kind of identifying info. However, I would second that it is a good idea to call the police if you are seeing physical stuff manifesting right in front of you.

That said, yesterday outside my office I was hearing a baby crying and a dad (from the temp shelter currently in the building) repeatedly yelling at the baby to just "shut up!" I was getting so anxious just listening. I finally went out to the room where they were, and I just observed for a couple minutes. Here is what I saw:

The mother was sitting on some stairs, and the baby was plopped down (sitting) on the floor about three feet from her. There were many bigger kids playing around her, and there was an (unpredictable) ball flying everywhere which helped make the baby feel vulnerable. It looked a couple of times like she was trying to scoot to her mom but couldn't get the mobility. That seemed to contribute to her frustation, especially since she seemed like she was needing some comfort. Another baby, who might have been her twin, was crawling around as well. The crying baby was obviously sick. She kept sneezing and all this snot would fly out all over her face, which would make the crying worse. Then her dad would come up behind her and without letting her know he was there, he would reach around and wipe her nose. She was taken by surprise and also hated getting wiped. Meanwhile he would yell at her "Oh, knock it off" when she responded with tears, and then he would proceed to pace around the room telling her to shut up and stop crying as he waited for the next sneeze and interacted with the other kids.

I went and knelt down beside the baby. I crouched as low down as I could so I was on her level and I looked at her and just tried to model what would have been a nurturing response. I said, "Oh sweetie! You sound really upset. What's the matter?" The mother continued to just sit there, and it seemed okay, so I rubbed/patted the baby's back lightly a couple times and said, "You sound so sick baby girl! I'm sorry. I am miserable when I am sick too."

This seemed to really click with the mom and she said, "I know! I've been telling her dad we need to take her to the doctor, but he doesn't want to." So when the dad came back over to wipe her nose again I just repeated, "She sounds so sick, poor thing!" He didn't yell after that, and after asking the mom how old the baby was and telling her she was a very sweet baby, she said thanks and then picked her baby up and went to talk to a friend. It seemed to have difussed the situation.

Sometimes I think ignoring the parents but engaging with the kid works well. It just breaks the tension and occupies both. Other times, I say things to my kids, loud enough for the offender to hear, that I think might help. For example I might have said, "Oh [3 y.o. ds], that baby is crying. She sounds so upset." And then ds pipes in, "What's the matter with her?" And I say, "I don't know, but it looks like she feels really sick. Isn't it crummy when you feel sick. I wonder what would make her feel better?" And then hopefully ds would pipe in that the baby might want to be cuddled or something like that.

Other times I say things to my kids, not really intending to intervene but more because I don't want my kids witnessing that stuff and thinking that it is okay, and it ends up being unintentionally overheard, which can make things better or worse depending on the person. For example, one time this woman was flipping out on her daughter in a parking lot, just screaming in her daughter's face. Sometimes going up and offering to help in situations like that is good, but in this case I got the feeling that wasn't going to fly. ds however, said, "What is she doing?" I told him she seemed really frustrated and was yelling, and I told him that yelling like that isn't okay and that the mommy should do something to calm herself down. I am not sure, but I think she overheard me, and she seemed to at least get a little more reasoned about what she was yelling rather than just hurling insults and calling her daughter names. I think it just reminded her that she was being heard. I've occassionally tried to gently point out reasons for a child's behavior that had become an inappropriate target of the abuse. For example, "He looks so tired! I remember doing that when I was tired when I was a kid too. Is it almost naptime?"

In extreme situations I've been known to say, "You should know that I'm a mandatory reporter" (not sure if you want to use it if you aren't, but maybe when you are desperate). Or just "whoah!" and then flashing an alarmed look their way to let them know, "I just saw that, and you were way out of line."

I gotta say though, like you, I often freeze up and regret it later. I totally empathize!


Though your post was to the OP, it really touched me. I learned soooooooooooo much from you tonight. These are very constructive ways to handle things, and I'd like to implement your strategies in my own life.

I do know what you mean about the mind your own business attitude. I really do have a hard time minding my business. I can't tell you how many times I called the police on people just to make sure things were okay. The county cops know me pretty well.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 







:

I think if you have to ride this bus every day, you have to be aware that someone might try retribution if you do confront them. I would try to anonymously through the public trans. authorities. Can you call the bus company? And tip them off that there is someone being assaulted on the bus, you are afraid to report it for your safety, but need an officer to ride the bus or something to make it stop.

And if it is serious, call the police non-emergency line and talk to them. Get the beat cops name, and call him...











Haven't thought of that but love that suggestion very much. I've usually called the police when the parents were cornered, such as at a bus stop, but I'd do it where I could not be heard. I'll apply this. Thanks.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

OP, thanks so much, with all my heart, for posting this thread. Not only has it reassured me that I'm not alone with my feelings of anger toward abuse, the responses given here have been helpful as to how I can address these issues to myself. Whether you know it or not, you really helped me so much. Thank you, and thanks so much to all for the great and wonderful advice.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

Its hard too see/hear some of the stuff that people say and do to their children. A little while ago we moved from California to Japan and its totally different. It seems like 90% of the military families Im around spank/yell/demean their children. Its heartbreaking for me to see and DD gets very, very upset about it. There were times that I had to leave the store because DD was so upset over how somone was treating their child (DD is very sensitive when she thinks someone is hurt or upset).

If someone is honestly struggling I might try helping them. I know several people who mentioned that they don't like seeing children cry. I don't either but I was on an international flight trying to collect my luggage and go through customs. I was pregnant at the time and morning sickness was just aweful. I hadn't been able to keep anything down the entire flight and was so weak because of it. DD was 15 months old at the time and exhausted so she was crying and fussing. I couldn't hold her and grab the luggage so she was at my feet screaming and crying, the looks I got were just aweful. Luckly a nice man who was traveling alone with his toddler was having troubles keeping him still so he offered to get my luggage if I could watch his toddler for him.. His help made it so I could calm DD down and figure out why his son was trying to run around (his son was hungry). Sometimes what you might see as neglect might just be somone struggling to get things done and not have enough hands/energy to do it.

As for straightout abuse- verbal or physical- also remember that stepping in might make it worse for the child once they get home. The parent might get embarrassed and take it out on the child when they return back to their house. Usually, unless its really bad, Ill ignore it because who knows what will happen. I don't want a confortation, especially when I have my daughter with me, and I don't want the child to suffer because of what I did.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I do know what you mean about the mind your own business attitude. I really do have a hard time minding my business. I can't tell you how many times I called the police on people just to make sure things were okay. The county cops know me pretty well.

Wow -- this comment kind of gave me the heebie-jeebies, especially after reading that your location was "right behind me."









And I'm not doing anything illegal, either, and I'm certainly not abusing my kids -- but I recently did have someone call CPS on me because of "concerns" they were having about some of my parenting choices, such as homeschooling.

It's all over now, and no case was ever opened -- but I do feel concern that if someone else gets "concerned" and decides to hotline us "just to make sure things are okay" -- well, I wonder if we could end up under more scrutiny because of having been called in before.

So, while I'm not doing anything harmful or illegal, I sincerely hope you're not *literally* "right behind *me*."


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I would say "Wow! It is so stressful being on the bus, isn't it?" and try distract the parent toward a civil adult conversation. Or "You sound sad. Are you ticklish?" to the child, and tickling their toes, or make funny faces.

Generally, empathizing with the parent, before it gets out of hand and they become overwhelmed, helps, ime. Also, engaging the child in a playful manner, helps to de-escalate a situation. I'm always listening out to intervene with an offer to help, before a situation amps up.

That sounds horribly stressful for you and your daughter.

When a man slapped a child (about 5-7 years old) across the face while standing in line at the CVS. I immediately spoke up and said "Please don't hit her. Hitting hurts." He declared that "as long as I don't leave a bruise, I can punish her as much as I want". I didn't know what to say further, I felt horrible for the child, but knew legally he was "right". I felt very intimidated by his stance and didn't challenge him. It was a very helpless feeling. (I was alone.) I sorta feel that I would have felt stronger if ds had been with me. Because I would have been concerned about his experience of witnessing this. *I* felt like a child being reprimanded, interestingly. With ds, I feel much more Mama Bear, I guess. I wish I had spoken about how I had felt as a child when I was punished, but I really felt mentally/emotionally threatened by his stature, voice and body language.

There are some more posts by adult women who remember someone intervening when they were hit as children. This thread has more information and ideas: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ed#post9780433

HTH, Pat


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## Pernillep (Jan 2, 2007)

You must be on my bus line (66 anyone)

All I can say is








I ride CTA every day too and I am so upset to see how many parents think it is ok to hit, yell at, threaten or demean their children.

But honestly I am to scared to engage. Where I live you never know who carries a weapon.

We often have CTA cops ride with us but they don't get on until the area gets a little nicer and by then the parent and child(ren) have already gotten off the bus.

And I get it,(based on where I live and where most get on the bus) the parents are stressed out, they most likely work crummy jobs are exhausted when picking up their LOs only to have to deal with rush hour CTA. They are embarrassed that the kid(s) are making noise and react the only way they know how.

I really just wanted to offer support and if you bus line is anything like mine try to move to the back. The strollers can't get back there. I know it doesn't make it go away but at least it helps you cope.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Perhaps you could write a letter to a governor of the town of where you live in and explain your situation about the constant abuse you see everyday when riding the bus and suggest them to encourage the city transportation authority to create a banner on each bus which would advocate against the child/women abuse on the bus/train/subway for everyone to see. I have seen a lot of banner like these in DC/MD and VA on the city bus or metro (subway).


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## soposdedi (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Haven't thought of that but love that suggestion very much. I've usually called the police when the parents were cornered, such as at a bus stop, but I'd do it where I could not be heard. I'll apply this. Thanks.

Um yeah. As the other poster said, that is a bit scary and creepy. Might want to think about how you're wording things







. Hopefully neither you nor anyone as hyper vigilant would flip out on me if I'm having a bad day and raise my voice at my child







.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I see this also, as I do ride the public bus. There are days that I just bring my Bible alone, or the children's Bible that always gave me comfort, so I can keep myself from jumping up and physically beating the crap out of those parents. I mean, who talks like that to a baby? Who? That children's Bible, because of its sentamental value, has proven to be extremely comforting in trying situations, and I make a practice of bringing it along when I KNOW I will be encountering something like this. It is like a focusing object. It is like something reassuring.

Right now, I'm discussing other outlets with my elders and mature sisters of my faith, as to how I can handle myself in those situations and what I can do when I feel rage coming up. Today, I was talking about this to a girlfriend of mine, and she suggested deep breathing and counting to ten. I know this has helped when I was upset about something: but, I have not had the chance to use it in a situation such as what you are speaking of, as it is new advice. I'm sure I'll have to use it very, very soon, as I'll be riding the public bus this afternoon. I can keep you updated as to how it works.

Thankfully, I've never gotten violent with the parents in these situations though I came pretty close. It helps that I know practically all the bus drivers since our county is small, and when they pull over the bus for break after the passengers are unloaded, I sometimes sit and talk to them and express my feelings. It helps that they listen.

I was abused when I was a little girl, so naturally, this stuff upsets me, especially when it is done to a baby who is helplessly dependent on their parents, and they cannot walk away when they don't like the way they are being treated let alone express it.









I hear you.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

I witness this sort of thing often and we're not in Chicago but I did want to warn you that if you take some action some thing can happen - as it happened to me, in a park a nanny started hitting a child, I asked her not to do so and all of a sudden I was surrounded by I don't know how many other nannies pushing me around, hitting the back of my head, shouting at me etc no other parent came to my aid - it was really scary not only for me but my child too, we've never been back there, I feel sorry for the kids but I learnt a valuable lesson in that I have to protect my kids and myself first - it may seem harsh but I can't do anything else here. I try to show GD parenting skills when we're out and about, I think the idea of phoning quietly to report to the transportation police or whatever is a great idea and I would do that I reckon, certainly after that which we experienced here. I'm sorry that you had to witness this - how upsetting for you


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

I see similar things on the NYC subway. If it's out and out abuse, and illegal, I call the cops as soon as I exit the station and tell them the subway car number and the direction it was headed. I give my name and number for contact information. 2 times they have called me back to verify descriptions. I didn't regret any of those times, what the parents were doing was not even remotely borderline, it was clearly out of line.


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## DasMaedchen (May 10, 2008)

I witnessed something like this just yesterday while I was at K-Mart, which I hate, but they sell the overnight diapers we use. So I was there, and there was this lady and her daughter, who looked to be around the same age as my daughter, maybe a little bit older.

the kid was sitting in the cart going wild, not listening to her mom, grabbing stuff, etc. the mom was yelling at her to stop, shut up, etc. and then to my absolute dismay (and apparently to the dismay of other shoppers) hit her child several times. Not swats on the leg, hand, or rear-end, but full on hitting. It was so horrible and inappropriate.

I said, while the lady was well within earshot, to my daughter: "You are SO lucky you have a nice mommy and not a psychopath like that lady" and went on with my shopping.

It must have made her check herself, because she calmed down and shut her loud mouth. That poor baby.

Also in the early summer, my mother and I took my little girl to this really nice park in another town. As we were leaving, we saw this really gross trashy looking woman, her baby, and what we presume was the grandmother. The "mom" was cussing and acting crazy in the parking lot, the BABY (my daughter was 10 months old at the time and the baby looked maybe a year old) was drinking SODA, which he spilled, so the mom flipped out and started screaming and cussing at the child, who was crying really hard at this point. I felt so bad for that baby, I wanted to take him home with me where he would be safe and in a calm environment.

I understand how upsetting this is for you. I raise my daughter in a calm, consistent home, and it drives me crazy to see people treating their children like animals. Parents should know or learn how to take control of a situation with their children but still treat the child with the basic respect and kindness that any living creature deserves.

I hate witnessing bad parenting moments, it's so awkward and gut-wrenching.

Of course I've gotten frustrated with my daughter before, but the key, as with any other situation, is never let them see you sweat. lol. I've been around enough kids to know that things escalate if you let on that you're losing your cool. My daughter has never seen me lose my temper and I'd like to keep it that way.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

You know, I agree with you that it's really awful how those mothers were treating their children -- but I don't see the need to use adjectives like "psychopath" or "really gross trashy looking," or to capitalize the word "soda" as if any parent who ever lets her child have pop is trash.

Basically, I think the Gentle Discipline attitude should extend even to the parents of the children that we claim we want to help.


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## GraceBlue (Apr 26, 2007)

Oh wow! Thats awful awful awful!









I will never ever forget this one time I went to Zayre (remember those stores?) with my mom when I was about 7 or 8. I saw a woman beat the crap out of her little girl who was already crying really really hard. This was 20+ years ago but I remember it like it happened yesterday. It still haunts me.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

This sounds unbearable to me. I have no idea what I would do other than call 911 on them, but it sounds so widespread.

If you are to confront someone, keep it really positive. "Isn't it tough to calm a kid, especially after a long day?" They might be more receptive to a suggestion after that.

If you have the time, I would suggest volunteering at a program that helps teach parenting skills in the area where you are riding. It may give you some insight into their lives, and it may help ease your anxiety because you are part of the solution.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

all the pps give great advice...

i do agree with the pp that said to call the police if you see a parent cover a childs mouth to make them be quiet... i worry that it could be dangerous... considering the child needs to breath and all that... if she were to keep it there until they were quiet ... she may end up with a very bad kind of quiet.


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
Could you also talk to the bus driver? I've known some very preachy bus drivers (for lack of a better term) who will stop the bus and go back and talk to people about their behavior, over something as little as drinking water on the bus...










My dh is a bus driver and has said things to parents before. One woman was letting her 2 year old daughter run around the bus while ignoring her and he told her he couldn't drive if the toddler wasn't holding on or sitting down.
There have been other things too, but I can't remember.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DasMaedchen* 
I witnessed something like this just yesterday....

I said, while the lady was well within earshot, to my daughter: "You are SO lucky you have a nice mommy and not a psychopath like that lady" and went on with my shopping.

It must have made her check herself, because she calmed down and shut her loud mouth.









I am so stealing this approach. It's unfortunate to have to shame others into doing the right thing, but if her own logic and parenting instincts have already failed, then the ends (of sparing the baby more abuse) justify the means.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

This is a great thread. I have been in this situation before, and I generally go the opposite way and blurt out something that I wish I had thought through later. I have said things like, "Please, please don't do that to him anymore." or "Please stop, you are scaring me." I generally am so truly upset that it comes out in a completely non-confrontational way as I am generally in tears or close to tears myself. I have even then talked to the parent and said sorry for saying anything, but that I was just truly scared. I think I, not by choice, approach the situation with such sincerity and vulnerablility is generally works.

I don't think everyone needs to go around being the parenting police. However, I always think about the how it makes the child feel that nobody drew a line for them. I have heard from many abused children that they thought it was normal, and since nobody every said anything, they didn't know that the way they were being treated was wrong. If nothing else, I want that little one to know that someone thought it wasn't right, and that someone was upset for them.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
It's unfortunate to have to shame others into doing the right thing, but if her own logic and parenting instincts have already failed, then the ends (of sparing the baby more abuse) justify the means.

Except that I've heard from enough people like Sierra, to know that there's a better and more effective way to connect with parents and help children.

Just as there's a better way than shaming our own kids to achieve a desired end.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
It's unfortunate to have to shame others into doing the right thing, but if her own logic and parenting instincts have already failed, then the ends (of sparing the baby more abuse) justify the means.


do you have any evidence that shaming has actually changed that parents behavior? my feeling is that it would only serve to compound the problem.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
do you have any evidence that shaming has actually changed that parents behavior? my feeling is that it would only serve to compound the problem.


Good point, and many people have expressed concern that angering the parents might cause them to lash out even more at their children later.

I suppose rude comments could cause some to stop and think about what they're doing, but in general I think saying hateful things to someone who's already angry and out-of-control, simply isn't going to be helpful to the children.

I agree with posters who've said that the children need to know their parents' abusive behavior isn't the "norm," and that most people don't approve of their parents' screaming at them and shaming them.

I just can't help thinking there's a better way to help, that shows compassion for the parent and helps us form a connection that can help the child -- and I'm not talking about connecting by "trashing" children and sympathizing over how difficult they are --

I'm thinking more of saying things like, "When I'm trying to get things done, sometimes I can miss my children's signals that they're getting tired/hungry/stressed (and little people do get hungry/tired quicker than big people), and if I've got my mind fixed on just getting from task A to task B, I tend to snap at my children, which worsens the problem. Somtimes I just have to stop and focus in on my kids."

Also, on the bus/train, I think it would do most parents a world of good to hear someone else's reassurance that they don't need to feel self-conscious or embarrassed because their small children are simply acting like small children. I agree with other posters who've said that some parents end up getting more stressed in public than they do in private, because they worry that other passengers are getting annoyed at them for not "controlling" their children.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
My 5yo was pretty upset that the baby was crying and no one was comforting her. The mother did eventually get her help and then come back to her children; if I remember right, she never picked up the baby, but I think the baby eventually stopped crying.











This was sort of me today. The bad mom... not the good mom. I was at Kohl's- it was the third or fourth stop of the day- Darn this holiday shopping- I was looking for a single pair of jeans in a particular size- I knew exactly what I was looking for and was trying to run in and run out of the store- I was overwhelmed at the thought of unbuckling and buckling the LO in and out of the car seat, so I just threw the entire carseat in the stroller.

You guessed it- he starts crying in the middle of the jeans. The trip was supposed to be so fast that I left the diaper bag in the car, so no pacifier. I didn't pull him out of the car seat, and I continued to hunt for my jeans. While he cried pretty much the whole time.









I'm such a bad mom sometimes.

But at least I spoke to him very kindly the entire time ("Poor Colin.... it's so hard to be dragged into these stores all day. You are so sad and frustrated. You need a cuddle, don't you. It's ok- mom will get you out of that seat very soon.") And I did leave the store the second I found what I was looking for.

Sorry- just had to confess.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And, actually, I wasn't considering myself the "good" mom in that other scenario. I could have done better by seeing if I could help comfort that baby (if the other mother was open to that, of course).


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## Mama2Rio (Oct 25, 2008)

so sad that your child has to witness this horrible behavior







when i worked in a shop, i saw a few things parents do that i thought were totally outragious. i was told i could not do/say anything no matter how much i wanted to. depending on the situation, i woulod speak up, if i felt safe to do so. most of the time your in a situation where you could become a victom yourself. i have spoken up many times in the past, but now i have my own baby to watch out for. plus, i don't know if my words ever stopped anything.

i did have a friend call the police on a woman kicking, pushing and screaming at a two yr old who was walking down the side walk.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

could you put a christmas card in the stroller without being noticed? Put some parenting links... nospank, offer to help, hope her day gets better, empathize with her stress?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
could you put a christmas card in the stroller without being noticed? Put some parenting links... nospank, offer to help, hope her day gets better, empathize with her stress?

That's a great idea -- to have some cards or something on hand with information that we can give to parents who seem like they need some help.


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## ErinBird (Dec 5, 2005)

As someone who deals with anxiety, I think I would need some short term solutions for myself in addition to knowing that I was doing what I could long term (writing letters, talking to people, offering to help, etc). For me, it would likely be something like listening to music to drown out the noise and bringing a book to share with my (toddler) DD.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

if you have a cell phone with video, maybe you could record the abuse and send it in to your child protection agency.


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