# "Pantley pull-off" and screaming



## Doussou (May 22, 2005)

I have been trying to do the PPO with my 9 mo. old DD, but she just SCREAMS every time. No matter how drowsy, or nearly-asleep, she is, the second I take her off, she's miserable. Sometimes it even becomes counter-productive, because after a few times, she's worked herself into such a tizzy that she then won't even nurse to sleep and it takes forever to get her to sleep.

Did anyone else have this issue? Did you continue and it got better, or was it futile? I really don't mind her nursing to sleep, but lately (past 3 weeks) she's been waking up every few hours literally screaming to nurse, so the sleep association that NCSS talks about made a whole lot of sense to me.


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## mom2PJS (May 25, 2006)

I had the same problem. No advice because after working herself into such a "tizzy" 4 nights in a row I decided now wasn't the time for us to change this sleep association. So it's nurse, pacifier, sleep and wake up every couple of hours. We'll try again in a month or two.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Sounds like she's just not ready for that.

-Angela


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

We have the same problem--ds gets *so* worked up that it just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe as they get older they're more willing to self night wean...?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

IMO nightweaning is not developmentally appropriate before around 18 months.

-Angela


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## Mommy2Jackson (Dec 5, 2005)

I think 9 months is way too early for any kind of night weaning. My ds is 13 months and still nurses at least 3 times usually more at night.

I did at one time try Pantleys sleep solution and had no success. I just realized that society's whole sleeping through the night thing is nuts and quit worrying about it. I won't be doing any kind of night weaning until ds is 2, I think before then he needs it, but jmo.


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## Doussou (May 22, 2005)

I'm not looking for night weaning. My DD's sleep pattern has deteriorated recently, and I would like to just get back to where she was nursing 2 times/night. Yes, in an ideal world I would nurse my babe all night long, but I am not one of those mama's who can sleep through nursing, and I am having a tough time functioning during the day because I'm so tired. FWIW, I had stopped the attempts at the "pull-off" by the time I wrote the OP, and haven't tried it since.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

The Pantly pull-off came in handy for me when my daughter would nurse in her sleep for hours straight. It only worked when she was sound asleep though.

Quote:

My DD's sleep pattern has deteriorated recently, and I would like to just get back to where she was nursing 2 times/night.
I can relate to how frustrating this is! It's so hard when they start to wake up more often. Usually, when babies or toddlers start to nurse more at night there is a reason--teething, a growth spurt, reaching a new developmental milestone...can all cause baby to need to nurse more at night. How is her daytime nursing? Sometimes babies this age are busier and more distracted, so they nurse less during the day and more at night. Encouraging more daytime nursing can help.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Sometimes it doesn't work, for whatever reason, I think maybe stages they go through. I always use the pantley pull-off, and no, it is not nighweaning. It means that I don't want to lie on my side with my nipple in his mouth all night long. So anyway, ds2 was fine with it until recently - I'd lie with him in bed and nurse him until he was mostly asleep (flutter-nursing) and then slide my finger in his mouth and sneak away. But for the past month, he has woken up screaming when I try to do this. I don't know if it is teething or trying to walk or what. Now he is starting to go back to normal, but I have made some adjustments - I figure on at least 15 mins before I can try to get my nipple back, and I really make sure to break the suction with my finger between his gums. This is working.

On a tangent - everyone here freaks out and calls everything nightweaning, when most of the time people aren't even talking about that. Like the OP. She just wanted to get the baby off her nipple, and she didn't say anything about not nursing all night. So chill out! You can nurse the baby on demand all night and still take your nipple out of his/her mouth. Or are we supposed to be such martyrs that we need to sleep on one side all night and not move? And secondarily, is nightweaning a 9 or 12 month old the end of the world? If the baby adjusts fine to it, then what is the problem? If the baby doesn't wake up all night to eat, should we wake him/her up to nurse so we aren't nightweaning? I think people need to relax.


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## Doussou (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
On a tangent - everyone here freaks out and calls everything nightweaning, when most of the time people aren't even talking about that. Like the OP. She just wanted to get the baby off her nipple, and she didn't say anything about not nursing all night. So chill out! You can nurse the baby on demand all night and still take your nipple out of his/her mouth. Or are we supposed to be such martyrs that we need to sleep on one side all night and not move? And secondarily, is nightweaning a 9 or 12 month old the end of the world? If the baby adjusts fine to it, then what is the problem? If the baby doesn't wake up all night to eat, should we wake him/her up to nurse so we aren't nightweaning? I think people need to relax.

Thank you!!!


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## gristastic (Jan 7, 2004)

I don't know if this will help, but:

my son was always (and still is) that kid that would nurse all night long, if I didn't pop him off the breast at some point, and while I can usually do ok with nursing him here and there at night, staying in the same position on my side ALL night was NOT doable for me. I woke up cranky and really didn't like the parent I was the next day.

For us, the trick is in being sure that he's sleeping very deeply before I break the latch. (Not "flutter-nursing" but actually just laying there with the nipple in his mouth for about a minute or 2, before he realizes it's there again and starts nursing) I can also usually tell when he's sleeping deeply by the pattern of his breathing and the relaxed posture of his limbs. If I wait too long, and he starts sucking again, I actually have to wait through the cycle again, before I pop him off, or I'll wake him up.

Now, that being said, there are some days (and sometimes weeks) when he nurses all night and I can't unlatch him at all. This typically happens when he's sick, or having a growth spurt. Is it possible that your son is just having a growth spurt, or cutting teeth, and that is creating a (temporary) need to nurse all night?

It is always easier for me to accept and subsequently deal with these kinds of things just in knowing that they are temporary. So, I'm hoping to offer you some comfort in that possibility.

Good Luck


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## nabigus (Sep 23, 2004)

My son is just 12 months, and we're just getting to the point that the PPO works. Until then, I'd have to replace the nipple with a binky (my ds has a VERY VERY high sucking need). Now, most of the time, I can replace the nipple with a finger, he spits out the finger and roots a little, I offer the finger again, and he spits it out, rolls over, and goes all the way to sleep. But there are still times I can't get away with it and end up letting ds keep his Nipple of Sleep.


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

I've done PPO since birth (mostly while she slept on me in the Boppy) and all I can say is: sometimes the magic works; sometimes it doesn't! Don't sweat it. Try again. Try again. Try again. I usually have to try 10x or more. Just when I think she'll never stop rooting, she stops.

One thing that works for me is to pop just the nipple out with my finger, but hold my body very still. She doesn't "miss" anything that way. Good luck!


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

OK now the PPO finally makes sense to me! I thought you were stopping the child from nursing, not from sleeping all night w/ your nipple in their mouth. Great, then we've been successful w/ the PPO 99% of the time. So why am I so tired?????







:


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## Doussou (May 22, 2005)

Thanks, everyone for your input.

Gristastic - It definitely helps to be reminded that it's temporary!

Sunnysideup - I actually think that my DD has been nursing more during the day as well, so maybe she just plain needs more nursing right now for whatever reason.

So I'm more relaxed about it now, and I'm just going with her flow (no pun intended!). Although I don't think I'm any less tired, I'm less stressed about it, which makes me feel better in general. As for the fatigue, it's temporary, right?!


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## fremontmama (Jun 11, 2004)

Trying to pull away my nipple from my nursing dd didn't really start working until she was over 18mos. She just sucked harder and really stretched my nipple out.









Maybe it might work better later on down the road...?


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I wish that were true for us, fremontmama! But my ds is 2 1/2 and still screams when I try the PPO. He's got to be totally asleep before I can get my nipple free.

When he was a baby, it took me forever to get him to sleep, and the only way I could do it was to let him nurse. But now he's got a very strong sleep/suck association. I would definitely do things differently if I had to do it all over again.

I remember Pantley saying something about how some kids won't respond PPO or other attempts to break the sleep/suck asso, and it seems that ds will be one of those kids. More sleepless nights and sore arms/nipples around here for awhile . . .


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I had to start with her being totally TOTALLY asleep and pulling off, then work my way back.


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

Teething?? this is my catch all possibility but could it be that it physically hurts when she gets off the nipple? Screaming sounds like pain to me, unless you're saying it's just a pissed off scream. My DD doesn't scream unless there's pain or distress so I don't know if that's possible or what it sounds like if it is.







good luck, it's tough when they start sleeping worse than they were. But since it just started 3 weeks ago I'd really suspect teething.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Teething?? this is my catch all possibility but could it be that it physically hurts when she gets off the nipple? Screaming sounds like pain to me
I've heard that sucking can ease the pain of an ear infection.


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## jlbaby (Nov 7, 2005)

doussou,
just wanted to commiserate. (i'm glad you're feeling better about it, though!) PPO really worked for us when DS was 10-mo old. then he had a few months where he simply would not stay asleep without boob in mouth. at least he wouldn't scream or cry, but frantically root every time i'd gently remove myself, and i would just let him keep sucking (chewing, more like it). but he did grow out of it. i still employ the PPO (he's almost 14 mos) and he's been sleeping a lot better - only waking 1-3x a night. between 10-14 mos, he's gotten 5 new teeth which likely set everything off-kilter. (amie's catch-all is mine, too).









just keep with it and good luck!


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## AugustLia23 (Mar 18, 2004)

We nightweaned completely between 11pm-7am at 10 months, but ds#2 was very willing to, and took to it right away. Ds #1 didn't nightwean until after 2yrs. Children are very different and it does sound like she's not ready yet. Maybe look at Jay Gordons sleep technique if you are determined.


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## Doussou (May 22, 2005)

Wow - thanks for all of your support!

AmieV and sunnysideup - it's definitely a pissed-off scream. I'm pretty sure I can differentiate between it and a painful teething scream so I really don't think that's it.

And wouldn't you know - last night she only woke 3 times to nurse!! Sometimes I think that if you think about a "problem" long enough, then actually write it down and ask for support, Murphy's Law says that it'll change! Although one night does not mean a true change, so we'll see...


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