# Air travel Q's (gate check carseat on American)?



## chrstene (Dec 11, 2007)

Hello. We are planning a surprise trip to see my inlaws in 2 weeks...and here is our conundrum. they have spare carseats at their home, BUT since we are flying in for a big family surprise, we can't use them. We will have to lug our two Graco Nautilus' with us - I simply don't want to, and can't afford to, buy new lighter travel seats AGAIN !

We always have flown southwest, but it looks like the first leg of this flight will be American Airlines. We are purchasing tickets for both kids, too old for lap seats. Can you check carseat at the gate for AMerican without being charged? Also, anyone have experience putting a Nautilus in a seat on an AA flight ? In case we decide to go that route ?

Thanks for your help !


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

you can check at the ticket counter or gate for no charge for either,, the only American restriction is on large or non folding strollers, (like big doubles or jogging types that weight over 20 pounds those must be checked at the ticket counter but still are free.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I strongly recommend against checking your seats. You are risking damage that will compromise their ability to protect your children in a crash (damage you may not even notice when they're returned to you) or loss.

If your children are using them in harnessed mode, the safest thing to do is to use them on the plane.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

what kind of damage do you think could happen to them? i just traveled across country and gate checked 2 seats on each leg. bagged them in thick clear bag the airline provided and felt they were pretty safe.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Unfortunately, they were not safe. Car seats tend to be handled very poorly as luggage, gate checked or otherwise. They can be thrown, jumped on, tossed onto the tarmac. I have personally examined seats that were damaged when gate checked.

The 'bag' does not provide protection against structural damage. I would never use a seat for my own children that had been checked on an aircraft, and I would advise anyone who has one to discontinue use and replace it with a new seat.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

well the plastic bag does show wear and tear and if it were dropped on the tarmac or jumped on , it would have scuffed or outright ripped the bag, so i feel pretty safe that that did not happen. these are not fragile items for the most part, if they could be hurt by simply dropping them on concrete from a reasonable height of being held we would have a huge issue on our collective hands from just the day to day handling of them by their owners. and warning labels so loud as to be crazy.

i do think that gate check is slightly more safe, since it never goes on the vehicles and gets tossed around a few less times per flight. i will continue to fly with mine rather than use a rented or borrowed one , now in that case you really dont know how it has been cared for!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I agree with PP. Checking a carseat is a bad bad bad idea. if you were willing to lug the things all the way to the gate, why not go the extra 20 feet and just use it on the plane?









Traveling with little kiddos is tough business. I almost did it while both my boys are still in carseats and would have actually really needed them on the plane. But I was to chicken.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

The only issue I've ever had with checking seats at gate with aa, is that they really wanted it to go with the regular luggage, so the seat would have to make it's way through the baggage process. The only reason I was able to pick it back up at the gate at the end of my flight is that I was only traveling with carry-ons.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I agree with PP. Checking a carseat is a bad bad bad idea. if you were willing to lug the things all the way to the gate, why not go the extra 20 feet and just use it on the plane?


because depending on the age of your kids they may not have their own seat! but in my case i was traveling with 2 six month old twins and needed the car seats and a snap and go to get them to the gate, but clearly could not take said items on board with me.

i still dont see what kind of damage you both are referring to that is going to make my seat less crash worthy. specially if i make a point of wrapping it up so they cant grab the thing by any straps


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## chrstene (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for everyone's opinions. Any experience putting a Nautilus on an airplane seat...specifically. It just seems like such wide seat (compared to the cosco scenario we used to use while traveling).


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

i still dont see what kind of damage you both are referring to that is going to make my seat less crash worthy. specially if i make a point of wrapping it up so they cant grab the thing by any straps

A host of things could have gone wrong. They could be thrown down one of those chutes some airports use for gate-checked items (basically throwing them to the ground), they could have been crushed under luggage or fallen off a truck on their way to the plane (if they were checked at the counter). Just go on YouTube and there are tons of mishandled luggage videos...

The fact is that a car seat is meant to protect your child in ONE crash. After that, your car seat is supposed to be replaced and paid for by your insurance even if there is no obvious damage. The force of being crushed or tossed could easily be the same impact as a moderate crash. This is also the reasoning behind why car seats expire. You can't just look at them and determine how safe they are.

This is, aside from the whole question of having the car seat when you arrive. If you check a car seat as luggage, it could easily be "misrouted" and might take days to get back to you, in whatever shape. The airlines will NOT compensate for what they consider to be a "delicate item" (AA's website says this outright).

With two adults and only two car seats, bringing them on board shouldn't be a big deal. Buy those metal luggage carts and make sure they're bungeed on them well. I even used this instead of a stroller. Please don't waste money on one of those GogoTravelmate thingies. It's basically an overpriced luggage cart and I've heard reports of them breaking in airports. They only have a plastic base. Get one with a metal base. Stow it on the floor during the flight (not in the overhead bin). Did this on many Europe to California flights and it went great.

P.S. Can you think of a good way to "sneak" one or both seats out from your unsuspecting in-laws? Perhaps a relative or friend living near them can ask to borrow the seats for visitors with children (which is true-they just don't know the "visitors" are YOU). Borrowing just one seat might look less suspicious and then you only have one on the flight. Make sure the seats get to whomever is picking you up at the airport. Just an idea


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

ok sorry for encouraging this thread to get sidetracked, i would like to drop it and go back to the original posters questions.

i would guess that you can call the airline and ask how wide the seats on that particular airline are and as long as you have the width it seem like it would be straight forward. I'm not sure if www.seatgugu.com states widths on all seats, but they do for a lot of them, if you haven't checked out that website it is a wealth of amazing info, i always have it open when picking my seats!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

It's still important to get through to parents that checking car seats as luggage is NOT a good idea. Hope you're straightened out on that!

Just a warning, the information on Seatguru is not always correct so double check directly with the airlines' site.

Also, if the width of the car seat exceeds the width of the airplane seat, don't panic. There's a lot of wiggle room. First of all, you the parent, wont mind if a little of it spills over into your seat. You can raise the armrests if necessary. Car seats are wide in different places so chances are, you can still get the seat installed and wont be uncomfortable.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I have brought the nautilus on a plane (I believe Jetblue and United) and it was fine.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> *Unfortunately, they were not safe*. Car seats tend to be handled very poorly as luggage, gate checked or otherwise. They can be thrown, jumped on, tossed onto the tarmac. I have personally examined seats that were damaged when gate checked.
> 
> The 'bag' does not provide protection against structural damage. I would never use a seat for my own children that had been checked on an aircraft, and I would advise anyone who has one to discontinue use and replace it with a new seat.


you can not possible know this. OP - it is fine to check your seats. I have personally examined seats that were fine after being gate checked. I have NEVER seen a baggage handler jump on seats.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Adorkable~*
> 
> well the plastic bag does show wear and tear and if it were dropped on the tarmac or jumped on , it would have scuffed or outright ripped the bag, so i feel pretty safe that that did not happen. these are not fragile items for the most part, if they could be hurt by simply dropping them on concrete from a reasonable height of being held we would have a huge issue on our collective hands from just the day to day handling of them by their owners. and warning labels so loud as to be crazy.
> 
> i do think that gate check is slightly more safe, since it never goes on the vehicles and gets tossed around a few less times per flight. i will continue to fly with mine rather than use a rented or borrowed one , now in that case you really dont know how it has been cared for!


People check wheelchairs and other things just as important (if not more) as car seats. Checking at the gate is perfectly safe. Checking with luggage is probably fine, too, but if you check at the gate you get it faster upon arrival


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I worked for the airlines for 13 years and I'll assure you that wheelchairs are NOT handled as car seats and other luggage is. There are laws which protect people with handicaps and their wheelchairs, by law have to be on the jetway, in good shape. The airlines get into a lot of trouble if they don't follow the law. Car seats have NO such protections. Most are just treated as luggage. The chutes that some airports use for gate-checked items are NOT used for wheelchairs, which are hand-carried down for these reasons. If the airline is not required to hand carry other items, they wont.

Sports equipment often has an extra fee and are handled differently just because of the shape and size, which prevent these items from being handled with the rest of the luggage. Again, car seats have no such limitations. They can just be thrown down chutes and thrown on trucks like any other bags.

The other obvious point which you are ignoring is what do you do if your luggage doesn't arrive when you do? How are you supposed to leave the airport? What are you supposed to use for your child? Anyone who has ever lost luggage will tell you that it can take days to get things back, if at all (usually yes but often in bad shape since it was probably sent to the wrong city).

Gate-checking is a lesser evil, for parents who don't have any other option (not allowed to use the seat on board, lap baby, etc.) Gate checked things are also forgotten, no time to load, or whatever. There's less chance of something going wrong but once it's out of your sight, anything can happen. Baggage handlers are working under tight schedules. The pressure is for them to load the plane on time. There is a reason why the airlines will NOT compensate for damaged car seats!

The OP might want to look into a Ride Safer Travel Vest, if they think they can get use with it for the future. It can't be used on the flight but would mean just one car seat to take.

The argument "I checked my car seat and it was fine" is not valid. There is no way to really know unless you're in a crash. Car seats are not indestructible and I know what checking luggage has done to enough of my suitcases! (I've flown over 40 airlines in 50 countries). I don't need my car seat going through the same abuse. I've watched baggage handlers at the airport. It's not pretty. Checking car seats is not a smart thing to do.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> you can not possible know this. OP - it is fine to check your seats. I have personally examined seats that were fine after being gate checked. I have NEVER seen a baggage handler jump on seats.


Ah, yes, Swede is back to make antagonistic, ignorant statements that could endanger children. I have observed that you frequently make 'opinion' statements on this forum that are contrary to all established fact.

I 'know' it because car seats are my job. I would not presume to tell you what you know in your field of work. Please refrain from allowing your need to pick a fight endanger children.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> you can not possible know this. OP - it is fine to check your seats. I have personally examined seats that were fine after being gate checked. I have NEVER seen a baggage handler jump on seats.


How about tossing the gate checked car seat down the ramp so it goes splat on the ground? Is that cool?? There is another clip where they treat her strollers with the same respect as well. That took me two seconds of Googling. I would NEVER trust a baggage carrier with a car seat.

http://wn.com/southwest_baggage_handlers


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Ah, yes, Swede is back to make antagonistic, ignorant statements that could endanger children. I have observed that you frequently make 'opinion' statements on this forum that are contrary to all established fact.
> 
> I 'know' it because car seats are my job. I would not presume to tell you what you know in your field of work. Please refrain from allowing your need to pick a fight endanger children.


Not trying to make is antagonistic. You are the one who acts condescending towards everyone and speaks in absolutes. You can not know what goes on with every car seat. MOST carseats are fine when they are gate -checked. So many of you recommendations are over-the-top and unneccessary. Why don't you just tell people not to drvie, period. BEcause that is actually where the danger lies.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> How about tossing the gate checked car seat down the ramp so it goes splat on the ground? Is that cool?? There is another clip where they treat her strollers with the same respect as well. That took me two seconds of Googling. I would NEVER trust a baggage carrier with a car seat.
> 
> http://wn.com/southwest_baggage_handlers


/This is what is called an antecdote.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I flew AA a week ago and checked my seat. You can take the cover off to see if the styrofoam is still all in tact. Personally, there is no way my seat would have fit on the AA connector flight we took (tiny plane). I didnt book the flight, my parents did, Id never choose to fly on those tiny planes. When AA takes your carseat at the gate, a lot of times they go ahead and put it with the regular baggage under the plane and you dont get it back until your final destination. At any rate, I think the carseat is fine. I examined it thoroughly and the bag was not damaged in any way.

As for your carseat, do you know which size plane you will be flying on? Is it nonstop or will you be connected?


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> This is what is called an antecdote


Huh. We call those videos where I am from.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Huh. We call those videos where I am from.


I was referring to the content of the video  Have a great day!


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

folks, we are not helping anyone by bickering. A "I'm right, how dare you think you are or tell me otherwise" approach is not going to get any one anywhere ever. i mean really have you ever seen that work on MDC?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> Hope you're straightened out on that!


we are not here to be "straightened out", at least i'm not. I' here to learn and share

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> Ah, yes, Swede is back to make antagonistic, ignorant statements that could endanger children.


maybe there was a way to say this without also doing the very thing you were complaining about. antagonistic rebuttals are about as useful as antagonistic statements.

now the original poster has probably long been scared off, maybe off MDC all together, i hope not. Sorry for your thread going so sideways, as you an see we all care about our children's safety a LOT.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

My DP worked for several years as a baggage handler at SeaTac in high school. She agrees that if you check your carseat, you should assume it has been dropped from a height, jumped on, buried under a few hundred pounds of suitcases, and probably a bunch of other stuff. I read her this post in particular:

Quote:


> you can not possible know this. OP - it is fine to check your seats. I have personally examined seats that were fine after being gate checked. I have NEVER seen a baggage handler jump on seats.


She laughed and said "of course she's never seen a baggage handler jump on seats. They only do that INSIDE the plane. Why would you jump on luggage while it's on the cart?" I know that just watching out the windows before takeoff I've seen many pieces of luggage fall of the top of those little carts (maybe 6-8ft up) and just get flung back up again. Sometimes a few times if the handler's flinging skills aren't so hot. I'm 100% sure they'd do that with a carseat if it were on top. And carseats are treated exactly the same as any other luggage, NOT like medical devices like wheelchairs.

Needless to say, we don't check seats. We do fly with lap babies sometimes, I feel that the risks there are acceptable, but only when we have seats on the other side. I have gate checked a seat before (and DP feels this is much safer since the seat is not handled nearly so much) but I prefer to avoid that when possible.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

So, can someone just explain this to me?

The way I see it, the force involved via being dropped, bounced on, tossed around by baggage handlers, etc is surely MUCH less significant than the force experienced in a car crash? Yes?

There is also the obvious difference of a child not actually being IN the seat while all these baggage handlers are trying to make my seat unsafe. Therefore, while the seat is being tossed around, it is not receiving stress to the restraints or the attachment points.

Obviously a seat should be replaced after it has been involved in an accident, but I just do not see the scientific reason behind the recommendation that a seat be replaced after being dropped. Based on that reasoning, if I drop my seat in the driveway, it is junk and I should replace it. Really? I'm trusting my kid's life to something that poorly made?

I'm seriously just asking. If my line of thinking is just ill-informed, I'd love for someone to present me the facts. I'm a huge carseat safety nut, but this just doesn't make sense to me. We don't have a lifestyle that involves flying right now, but if we fly in the future, I'd really like to make the best decision possible.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

if I drop my seat in the driveway, it is junk and I should replace it. Really? I'm trusting my kid's life to something that poorly made?

Even if you have a monster-sized SUV and you drop it from there, we're only talking a few feet.

When you fly, your luggage is sent through a conveyer belt and usually then on to a truck. Sometimes it's put into a luggage container, a sort of large, tin bin which is then loaded on to the aircraft. Otherwise, it's taken off the truck and put on a belt, taking it up to the cargo hold of the aircraft. There are YouTube videos of luggage, including car seats, being thrown from the truck and piled up to be sent into the aircraft. Things can also drop off the truck and that would mean it would have the same impact as an accident could. We're basically talking a lot of handling with heavy objects and lots of chances to drop off of something (the belt, the truck, while being loaded, etc.)

Those aircraft are a lot higher than they look and it's concrete under them.

Then there's the whole question about where it's placed. Will a bunch of other bags be loaded on top of your car seat? Then sit there for how many hours?

Also, don't forget about if your car seat doesn't even make it on board. What will you do to transport your child in the car, without a car seat? It might take days to get your seat back. I once had only one of my four bags when I arrived but our car seat was with us so my dd was safe for the 2 hour drive home. Our bags came three days later.

It's not that car seats are "poorly made", it's that they're only designed to withstand ONE accident. They're also not designed with the idea that they'll be tossed and crushed with normal use.

I'm also unclear about why the baby being in it would make a difference. It's less the "attachment points" than the whole seat being at risk. The "L" shape would also make it more vulnerable than a squarish shaped object. I can tell you from experience, that I've had some pretty beaten up bags on arrival!

The car seat is designed to keep your child attached during an accident. It's not meant to be crushed or thrown by itself.

There is a reason why the airlines wont compensate for broken car seats!


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## sunwise (Sep 16, 2010)

I have a question here that doesn't seem to be answered in any of the discussion above - I definitely understand the risks of checking or gate checking a car seat. But if you have a lap baby and no way to have a carseat waiting on the other end of your trip, what are you supposed to do???

The first (and only) time we traveled with our DS on a plane, when he was 9 months old, we rented a carseat from the car rental place. We had such a horrible experience renting the seat that I vowed never to do it again. We specifically requested an infant seat, and when we got there, they didn't have any. They said all they had were booster seats, although eventually someone dug up a convertible seat, but we had no instructions for how to install it.

We have several plane trips coming up for this fall - two to visit grandparents and one for a wedding. I'm not going to ask the grandparents, who we travel to visit *maybe* once a year, to buy carseats for one-time use. (Besides which, my parents don't even have an appropriate car for a baby - all they have are pickup trucks.) For all these trips, we were planning to rent a car and buy a carseat to bring with us.

I've read a lot of people saying to never check a seat, but what no one says is what you *should* do instead to ensure that you have a carseat at your destination. Especially if you have a lap baby and there are no extra seats for your carseat on the plane. Any advice?


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I am curious too about how people have solved that. the only things I can think of are a. see if the grandparents can borrow a seat from somebody they know for a few days, and bring it to you at the airport to stick in your rental car, b. camp out with the baby at the airport while hubby takes the rental car to Babies R Us and buys a car seat, or c. order off the Internet/give the grandparents money to buy a seat and get them to bring it to you.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

I would think that the person that wouldn't check a carseat also wouldn't fly with a lap baby. They would buy the baby a ticket and use the carseat on the plane.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chel*
> 
> I would think that the person that wouldn't check a carseat also wouldn't fly with a lap baby. They would buy the baby a ticket and use the carseat on the plane.


If you are travelling with a lap baby and don't want to check a carseat, you could try and borrow one from a trusted person at your destination. Personally, I would check it, and just inspect for visible damage.


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## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

Those of us who won't check a carseat either buy a seat for all family members (including babies) or take other forms of transportation (car, bus, train). If I can't afford to buy my child a seat, I can't afford to fly.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

well i still feel perfectly fine flying with my twins as lap babies and gate checking my carseats i on the other hand would not feel good about using rental car child seats.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jocelyndale*
> 
> Those of us who won't check a carseat either buy a seat for all family members (including babies) or take other forms of transportation (car, bus, train). If I can't afford to buy my child a seat, I can't afford to fly.


Traveling via car, especially long distances, with your baby in your pristine, never-been-gate-checked carseat is putting your baby at MUCH greater risk of injury and death than flying with that baby on your lap.

This whole "If you can't afford a seat for your baby you can't afford to fly" bit has been beaten to death around here.







And each time someone brings it up, it's just as patronizing and judge-y as the first time.

Seriously...life happens and we all can't always do THE IDEAL THING.

The economy sucks. People with degrees are out of work for years. More people in this country are on food stamps than ever before. Air travel is expensive and people sometimes live far away from friends and family. Relatives across the country die. Parents get sick. Sisters get injured and need help. Sometimes you have to travel with a baby (especially last minute) and CAN'T afford to buy a ticket.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

That argument doesn't make sense because once the baby turns 2, you have to buy them a seat. So there goes the "affordability" question. Lap babies aren't an option after that point. So if anyone in the family gets sick or a parent has to travel in a hurry, they're going to have to buy their child a seat on the plane. End of story.

Don't judge people who wont make the same decision you would. If they wont fly with their baby in their lap, it's their right. I don't always buy organic food for my children but I congratulate those who do and still think it's better. I've also flown with my baby in my lap but only a limited number of times and only because either my car seat wasn't allowed on a foreign airline or once, as a FTM, I didn't make the reservation. My baby ended up without a car seat on a long drive, which was stupid of me and while my son is fine today, I don't want others to take the risk if they can avoid it.

It's valid to let parents, some who might be new to this game, know that flying with a lap baby is not safe. It's like the breast vs. formula debate. It's not being "judge-y" to say that something safe is better. Parent can assess the risks for themselves. Commercial air travel is very safe so the risks of something going wrong are very minimal, much less than formula or going anywhere by car or a million other things. But it's only fair that people know that yes, having your child on your lap a safety compromise.

If you are flying with a lap baby and need your car seat at your destination NEVER CHECK IT AS LUGGAGE. By all means BRING IT TO THE GATE. There are two advantages to this. First, if the flight isn't full, perhaps you can get a free seat next to you and bring your car seat on board. Best of both worlds! Your child is much safer and you didn't pay a penny!!

Gate-checking a car seat is no guarantee and definitely a compromise but there are fewer risks. By taking the seat to the gate, you're not letting the airline handle the car seat for as long, so less risk of it being sent to another city. At the gate, the gate-checked stuff is loaded directly on to the aircraft. They're usually the last items put on board so less chance of their being crushed by 10,000 suitcases. Wheelchairs are gate-checked.

Things can still go wrong. Some airports use chutes, which basically throw the gate-checked things down on to the tarmac. Also, someone could forget or run out of time and gate-checked items have been left behind on the jetway but that's rare.

What you're trying to reduce is the chance of having to leave the airport in a car without the car seat. The risk of something going wrong on the flight are far, far less than having your child unrestrained in a car.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> *That argument doesn't make sense because once the baby turns 2, you have to buy them a seat. So there goes the "affordability" question. Lap babies aren't an option after that point. So if anyone in the family gets sick or a parent has to travel in a hurry, they're going to have to buy their child a seat on the plane. End of story. *
> 
> ...


Thanks for dismissing ALL possible scenarios where a parent or family needs to fly (with a child under 2) and the cost between 1 ticket vs. 2 or 3 tickets vs. 4 makes a difference as to whether or not they have enough money for the trip.

And of course it is "their right" to do whatever they want with their child. It is NOT "their right" to tell every other parent in the world that they "can't afford to fly if they can't purchase a ticket for their baby."

And please don't lecture me about how I am doing a disservice to the safety of children by minimizing the dangers of lap babies. What I clearly said was that traveling by car, which was suggested as a better choice than flying with a lap baby upthread, is in fact the much more dangerous option.


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## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

As a projectile, a lapbaby is also a danger to other passengers. I've had the lovely experience of enjoying multiple flights with severe turbulence. I've seen items go flying--including babies.

True, air travel with a lapbaby is safer than car travel, but a lapbaby is significantly less safe than restrained passengers. My son has travelled happily in his carseat on planes. It meant we travelled less often as we needed to save up for safe seats for all family members, but that's part of life.

Back to the original question--I would not check a carseat unless it was in the original packaging or something very similar. Corrugated cardboard is designed to take some of the stresses of travel and mishandling.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> That argument doesn't make sense because once the baby turns 2, you have to buy them a seat. So there goes the "affordability" question. Lap babies aren't an option after that point. So if anyone in the family gets sick or a parent has to travel in a hurry, they're going to have to buy their child a seat on the plane. End of story.
> 
> ...


Your baby is safer as a lap baby in an airplane than she would be in a carseat on a long car trip.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I don't think you really read my post.

And of course it is "their right" to do whatever they want with their child. It is NOT "their right" to tell every other parent in the world that they "can't afford to fly if they can't purchase a ticket for their baby."

They said that when they can't afford a seat for each member of their family, they can't afford to fly. That's completely their right to decide this. If they think we're (yes, I'm included, at least on a few flights) are wrong by flying with a lap baby, that's their right. Technically, they're right. Look at my organic food argument. I buy some for my kids but not all. If someone thinks I'm a bad parent for not buying nothing but organic food, then they have that right. They can make a case in their favor but it's not practical or affordable for us and it's just a compromise I'm willing to make. It's still "their right" to express an opinion and it's my "right" to take their advice or leave it!

Just as a word of warning, this whole parenthood game involved a lot of "advice giving" and sometimes judging you. It's a good idea to develop somewhat of a thick skin because it wont stop; the schools you choose (or option to home school), the clothes they wear, computer, cell phone use, religious matters, etc. Some people want to sincerely offer you tips and information. Others seem to relish the opportunity to criticize (like the neighbor who was horrified that I sent my kids to public school while she never uses even seat belts with her own privately educated children). It can be hard to draw the line and sometimes it's a neighbor you see every day or your boss's wife...

And please don't lecture me about how I am doing a disservice to the safety of children by minimizing the dangers of lap babies. What I clearly said was that traveling by car, which was suggested as a better choice than flying with a lap baby upthread, is in fact the much more dangerous option.

"Lecture" is kind of extreme word to use here. Again, I don't think you read my post carefully enough before typing a response. This is a public forum where people come to get information. The point is for parents to know what are the safest options and then to make an informed decision based on what they've learned here and elsewhere. For some, doing the safest thing is not a big deal. For others, it might not work but at least they know. Not all parents make the same choices but just saying that X is safer than Y is not "lecturing" or "judging" anyone.

Yes, driving is not as safe as flying. Millions of lap babies arrive at their destinations safely each year while riding in a car is the most dangerous thing a child will ever do in his or her childhood. But last I checked, there's no way I can drive from Europe to California, so it's not a choice for me anyway!


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## Toposlonoshlep (Jan 14, 2010)

Haven't read all the responses yet, but she DID say that her kids have their own seats. That's not the issue with taking them onboard. The issue is that the seat has to be certified for an airplane, and even then it is at the airline's (actually, the flight attendant's) discretion whether they'll let you install it or not. My friend had purchased a car seat that was MADE for airplane travel (it also had a handle and foldout wheels to stroll around the airport (genius!)) and she was allowed to use it on a flight to her destination, but not back. No reason given.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Adorkable~*
> 
> because depending on the age of your kids they may not have their own seat! but in my case i was traveling with 2 six month old twins and needed the car seats and a snap and go to get them to the gate, but clearly could not take said items on board with me.
> 
> i still dont see what kind of damage you both are referring to that is going to make my seat less crash worthy. specially if i make a point of wrapping it up so they cant grab the thing by any straps


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## Toposlonoshlep (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm sorry ahead of time because I am going to get flack for verbalizing this, but I really feel that the whole car seat thing has become some weird focal point of the 21st century mommy wars. The whole "family safety" section is absolutely covered in discussions of car seats. To say that one needs to purchase more car seats or replace them after checking them is RIDICULOUS. When I was little, we crawled all over the van floor and slept laying down in the backseat on car trips. Car seats didn't exist. In New York City where we live, only 2% of parents use a car seat in a cab. No one wants to lug that thing around and YES, they take a risk. We take a risk with our children daily in so many ways. Are car seats a great invention? YES! I have two for my son. One in our car, one at his grandparents' house. Have I flown with them? Yep. I checked them in at the gate, too.







Car seats have greatly reduced deaths and injuries when it comes to car accidents. That is AWESOME!!! But you know what? Childhood cancer is on the rise. Do you tell a mother who is feeding her child nonorganic food, or worse, McDonald's that she is being UNSAFE? Do you prosecute her? No? Why not? Isn't she raising the risk that her child will suffer from cancer?

As an urban parent, the car seat high horse know-it-all insults really get to me. I feel like suburban mothers who have the advantage of owning vehicles in the first place need to understand that parents all have different lifestyles and they are still good, "safe" parents even if they don't use a car seat in a cab, or check their car seat at the gate.

Show some respect to each other, mamas!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

The issue is that the seat has to be certified for an airplane, and even then it is at the airline's (actually, the flight attendant's) discretion whether they'll let you install it or not. My friend had purchased a car seat that was MADE for airplane travel (it also had a handle and foldout wheels to stroll around the airport (genius!)) and she was allowed to use it on a flight to her destination, but not back. No reason given.

For the record, if she had been flying a U.S. company, the airline employees were breaking FAA rules by not allowing her to use it on board. If a parent purchases a seat and has a U.S. (or foreign) approval for aircraft use, the airline cannot refuse it. I hope she reported it both to the airline management and the FAA.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20120-87B.pdf

No aircraft operator may prohibit a child from using an approved CRS when the parent/guardian purchases a seat for the child.

Page 7

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make in the second post. Your logic wasn't clear. In the days when we were little, many children died in accidents who would have survived today. The children who died are not here to make their case. We're the lucky ones.

Also, far more children die in car accidents than of cancer. There is a clear link between car seat use and children surviving car crashes.

I used a car seat when I lived in a big city. I avoided taxis with my child, taking the tram or bus instead. No big deal. I didn't feel that the moms in the 'burbs with the minivans were judging me. When we moved out, we did get a better car and a better car seat though, just because we were in the car more!


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## Toposlonoshlep (Jan 14, 2010)

You were the minority if you used a car seat in the big city. In New York, mothers who take cabs (not everyone takes the tram or bus instead) don't drag car seats all over the city. I would like to see current statistics that show that more children die in CAR accidents. More children die of ACCIDENTS, but that includes accidents that don't involve cars. Here is an NYC report: http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/episrv/episrv-childfatality-book.pdf. It shows clearly that not only is the average of 1.3 (per 100,000) motor vehicle accidents significantly lower than the national average of 3.8, that non-motor vehicle accidents account for a significantly higher death rate. You could argue that is because more people in NYC use public transportation (with no car seats!!), and that's partially true, but there is also a much lower (almost nonexistent) rate of car seat use in rented and hired cars, as well as one of the highest rates of traffic in the country. Yes, car seats have GREATLY reduced death and injury rates in car accidents. I mentioned that in my post and it's great! I don't advocate not using a car seat. I just understand that not everyone owns a car and I don't think they are being "unsafe" by not using a car seat onboard the airplane and checking it instead. The chances of injury are so miniscule that to read that someone was concerned about a child being a "projectile" actually made me laugh. I have seen children turn into "projectiles" on buses, in the subway, on every form of public transport. That's just part of traveling with children. SHort of putting them into a bubble, there's just nothing these parents can do but use these forms of transportation without a car seat. Like I said, when I drive, I use a car seat. Cancer is the #1 disease killer of children. I thought my point was pretty clear. To tell a parent that she is being unsafe because she checks a car seat in at the gate is judgmental and ridiculous. If you're going to be car seat police, you might as well police what food parents feed their kids, what cleaners they use, and what lotions they slather onto their kids. A LOT of people check their car seats in on the plane and continue to use them afterwards. A lot of parents live a lifestyle in which they don't purchase a car seat. They're as good of a parent as you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make in the second post. Your logic wasn't clear. In the days when we were little, many children died in accidents who would have survived today. The children who died are not here to make their case. We're the lucky ones.
> 
> ...


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## Toposlonoshlep (Jan 14, 2010)

Yes, it was a cross country flight, and she was definitely told not to use it. I don't know the reason, but no, she didn't report them. She just put her little girl in the regular seat and they flew happily and stress-free and arrived safe and sound. I don't think she was up for the battle, and it made no difference in the end. I'll be leaving the thread now and must apologize to the OP that her thread got derailed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> For the record, if she had been flying a U.S. company, the airline employees were breaking FAA rules by not allowing her to use it on board. If a parent purchases a seat and has a U.S. (or foreign) approval for aircraft use, the airline cannot refuse it. I hope she reported it both to the airline management and the FAA.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toposlonoshlep*
> 
> Yes, it was a cross country flight, and she was definitely told not to use it. I don't know the reason, but no, she didn't report them. She just put her little girl in the regular seat and they flew happily and stress-free and arrived safe and sound. I don't think she was up for the battle, and it made no difference in the end. I'll be leaving the thread now and must apologize to the OP that her thread got derailed.


The reason that her dd arrived safely was because nothing went wrong on the flight. If parents don't report these incidents. They'll continue to happen.

Again, don't confuse issues by mixing subjects which aren't related. No one was judging anyone. That was your imagination. The OP came here for information and you're bringing up cancer, etc.


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## Toposlonoshlep (Jan 14, 2010)

I know this wasn't your post, but this is what I was responding to. This attitude right here. If you don't understand the concept of an analogy, there's little I can do to help you understand.









My friend's daughter arrived safely because nothing happened on the flight....Ummm, yes. The point some PPs were making is that flying with a child in your lap is significantly safer than driving, even with the car seat. Plane accidents are significantly more rare than almost any other accident. I posted statistics on childhood accidents and deaths for you, so you can double check. The fear mongering is really not helping the OP or anyone else keep their child safe. And yes, her thread was completely derailed, starting with the point at which she was told to not check her car seat, because "something could happen to it"....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Unfortunately, they were not safe. Car seats tend to be handled very poorly as luggage, gate checked or otherwise. They can be thrown, jumped on, tossed onto the tarmac. I have personally examined seats that were damaged when gate checked.
> 
> The 'bag' does not provide protection against structural damage. I would never use a seat for my own children that had been checked on an aircraft, and I would advise anyone who has one to discontinue use and replace it with a new seat.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> *That argument doesn't make sense because once the baby turns 2, you have to buy them a seat. So there goes the "affordability" question. Lap babies aren't an option after that point. So if anyone in the family gets sick or a parent has to travel in a hurry, they're going to have to buy their child a seat on the plane. End of story. *
> 
> ...


actually - it's not the end of story. I for instance am able to leave my two year old over night with his dad, so I could go to help my mom, if she needed it. But my 1 year old? Or a 3 month old No, I would need to bring him with, and I would not be able to afford a second ticket. so yes, the affordability argument does make sense, for some people.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Did you seriously just bump a thread that is A YEAR OLD in order to argue with and insult people? Lady, you need a hobby.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Yes, it's the end of the story. Please don't drudge up old threads. Thank you!


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