# Oh wait, back to banging my head into a wall! *post 77*



## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

*(please don't offer any advice unless you read and understand the whole post. I use sarcasm a lot and I'm very upset right now)

Added: please read through all my posts if you are giving advice, some responses are making is kinda obvious that didn't happen.
*
...is what I really want to do, just to stop myself from strangling DD. She's got this thing for kicking holes in walls. We had fixed all the holes in our old house and talked to her, and she's been good for a couple months. Today, she got sent to her room, politely because DH and I were arguing (so she wouldn't be right there and it was a nice, "honey, can you go read in your room for a bit", kind of thing), but she wanted to play on the computer right then, so she was mad. There is now a 3 FOOT by 1 FOOT hole in her bedroom wall. I've HAD IT. She doesn't need counseling, she doesn't need a talking to. I'm to the point I think she needs a good butt kicking, but that wouldn't do any good either! I can't think of anything to get her to stop, so I punished her - no more WoW (world of warcraft) ever - period. What good will it do? Nothing of course! Because she doesn't care! ARRRGHHHHH. How do you get a child to care when they don't. The only thing that makes her do good is bribes - allowance, treats, etc. She doesn't care about her brothers, or DH or I, she doesn't care if we need her to help or just want her around (like to go on a walk or watch a movie, even if she gets to run the show), unless she's getting something out of it. She only spontaniously gives a hug if she wants something, she only picks up her room to get out of trouble, or get computer time, she only hugs her brothers if I'm watching and she thinks she'll get "points". I'm just sick of it. We haven't raised her this way. I know too many kids who are like this and I've deliberately tried to raise her not to be so selfish and uncaring, but I failed







Its all her, her, her.







What can I do, besides counseling, because we don't have the money or insurance anyway for it, even if I was willing to try.

Please read the disclaimer at the beginning of the post before you reply, if you do. And please understand that I posted such a disclaimer because I way too often see posts where it is obvious that the poster did not read the whole original post, not because I'm being a bitch.


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## Monkeygrrl (Oct 9, 2005)

just sending hugs...cause i have no answers...

peace...


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Yeah, I don't have any answers but we're all human and we all have some sort of crisis to muddle through and learn from. (Ha! I wish I could skip my current growth opportunity!)







Think of the day when you're a Grandma & your dd is looking at you for wisdom and guidance....
yeah


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Not an expert, just throwing out ideas........

Sounds like she's really angry about something (other than the surface issue). Give her something else more appropriate to hit.......a punching bag and boxing gloves, perhaps. She has aggression she needs to get rid of in a healthy way. Or put her in karate--where kicking is encouraged!

Give her materials to fix up her wall......... And tell her calmly to fix the hole. She'll get tired of fixing holes. (Even if the result isn't perfect............have her do it herself.)


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

If she was sick, would you find a way to afford medical care for her? I think this is the same thing. If she was my child, I would find a way to get counseling for her.

What avenues have you tried to access affordable counseling? Why do you say she doesn't need counseling?


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Well mama, my dd sounds very similar to yours, the me,me,me thing just rings so true. My dd just doesn't seem to care. She doesn't kick massive! holes in walls tho has kicked holes in walls. She kicked the car today cos I was chatting to a mom that my other dd was staying to tea with, she was getting mightily annoyed cos she was waiting to get into town. Last night it was ' why don't you just go and kill yourself'. Well Im not gonna get upset with this stuff anymore. I think I do know a bit how you feel, my other 2dc are loving and caring tho prone to outbursts and the usual stuff just not to the extent eldest dd is, it's like she is pushing the limits all the time. She went ape this week cos I curtailed her pc time on school nights, she's only 'niceish' to me when she wants money etc, I'm totally sick of it but what can I do? I will try and talk with her but she doesn't want to talk to me. Y'know I'm starting to greet now thinking about it cos I feel such a failure and I keep hoping it will stop. I have not brought my dc up to be selfish and uncaring either and it's also affecting the other's . Yep they think they know it all and I also see other children of all ages behaving like this, I would not have got away with it when I was young tho I did kick a hole once, she probably gets it from me then I'm to blame for everything. So hugs cos it's very tiring dealing with this sorta thing, and depressing. I would probably give her the plaster and say fix it yourself, what to do about the anger tho? if you find out please let me know! I am gonna try( again) and talk to my dd cos I want her to know I love her and care very much but am not prepared to be treated like this, it's abuse really. Oh and I'm not sure about counselling being a method of sorting out extremely selfish, capitalist children( my dd is being just this) our society is encouraging this kind of behaviour on many levels, they are just acting out what they are being taught, this behaviour doesn't have to be learnt at home.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Also, the book Unconditional Parenting comes to mind. Have you read it?


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I will check out the book, we just got our library cards today.

When we get health insurance, we may look into counseling, but both DH and I have a serious lack of trust for anyone who's gone to school to "help" people, so it'll take a while to find someone who both DH and I, and DD are comfortable with.

We've given her options for her anger, hitting her pillow, running around the block, talking, drawing, writing, just internalizing it by playing on the computer or reading, and nothing seems to work for long. She's been, for lack of a better word, difficult, her whole life. I know when she was little, seeing me beat up by her bio dad, affected her, we talk about him when she wants to, as much as I hate him, I confront it for her and keep it all very fair for her. I know she hates that we move so much, and I know she has a love/hate relationship with homeschooling. I know she dispises my dad (her grandpa, who lives with us) at times. We talk about all these things and more and I try to work out solutions that will work for her, not just me or her dad. I try to include her in things that are mature but not too grown up, like the color of the car we're going to buy, or what we are having for dinner. I try to give her freedom and playtime and "her" time, but she complains all she does is take care of her brothers. Well, she helps, but no more then any other family member should contribute in any other family! She hates that DS1 is developmentally delayed and can't do many of the things that other kids his age should be able to do. She hates that we're not rich, that we're not famous, that we're not the Swiss family Robinson and the Little House on the Prairie all wrapped into one.

Basically, I think she just hates being 11 and is handling it very, very poorly. I handled it bad as well, but I had parents who hated each other, literally, and I had to resort to stealing to eat many days because my mom had no food in the house after she'd spent my dad's disability on clothes, our house was condemably-filthy and blah, blah, blah. DH and I are affectionate with each other, we love the kids, we talk to them, we care and we show it. Life isn't perfect, but she's got it a damn sight better then I did. Of course, she doesn't care about that, and I can't make her. But shouldn't she be happier then I was? How can a parent try so hard and fail so miserably?

forthebest, I hope we both can figure this out


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

As for the hole, we rent so it has to be done perfectly. I'm not losing my deposits over this! But she helps clean up the huge mess after the holes are patched, which is almost as big of a job.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I will check out the book, we just got our library cards today.

We've given her options for her anger, hitting her pillow, running around the block, talking, drawing, writing, just internalizing it by playing on the computer or reading, and nothing seems to work for long.

I'm glad you're going to check out the book. It's difficult to always be an "unconditional parent" but I think it's a good goal to reach for.

Again, perhaps consider getting a punching bag and boxing gloves, hanging it in the basement or garage, and letting her go at it. That has to feel so much more "rewarding" than hitting a pillow. You can really feel the "umph" of a punching bag, which is probably the satisfaction she is getting from kicking the wall.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Is she about to start her period?

My second dd was a NIGHTMARE, a real Dr. Jekyll/Madame Hyde, for about a year before she started, and then when she started, she was a whole 'nother (nicer) girl. That and a huge boost of calcium in her diet calmed her right down.
Just a thought, but her behavior may be hormonal.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

She sounds like she may have some post traumatic stress symptoms--you mention that she saw you beat up. That could be horribly traumatic to a child, and it may take years to materialize. Add to it her frustrations and mourning a special needs sibling (and I fully believe that siblings grieve the loss of their "sibling dreams" when the special needs mean that the sibling won't be that sibling they had imagined). Then moving a lot, as you mention, could shake any sense of stability that she may have, especially if she has some unresolved trauma in her life.

It does sound like she needs to talk to someone...I promise, we're not all bad (I'm one who went to school to "help" people--I have my master's in counseling and am in the process of my PhD). There is someone out there who will click with you and your child...







:

I don't really have much advice, because I don't really know her. But I think I'd look into getting her help for some trauma issues. Being a teenager is tough enough, but having something feel wrong and not knowing how to express it can make things worse....







:

Peace mama...it sounds like you're in a tough place right now--I hope everything works out soon...


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## duckling (Feb 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
When we get health insurance, we may look into counseling, but both DH and I have a serious lack of trust for anyone who's gone to school to "help" people, so it'll take a while to find someone who both DH and I, and DD are comfortable with.

I can understand the aversion to counseling/therapy, as that's how I approached it for a long time. However, I do think that counseling can be incredibly, incredibly helpful and is something to consider if/when your means allow. I saw a therapist for many of my tween/teen years and am seeing one now. I find, personally, that I'm much calmer and more balanced after therapy. As far as the "going to school to help people thing," I think that going through all the time, energy, and expense of getting the degrees and certifications required to become a counselor of any kind will weed out people who are doing it for the wrong reasons and leave the people who really do want to help people. (







: Sorry for the appallingly long sentence...)

If you're truly averse to counseling and/or your means don't allow for it, I'd try and get your dd involved in a positive activity outside the home--a sports team, art class, volunteer work, etc. Especially sports--the endorphin high from exercise is like natural Prozac--it certainly won't solve your problems overnight, but it will certainly help. Anything, though, that will allow her some time away from the family and the chance to begin refining her own identity will probably help her self-esteem and thusly her behavior.

Good luck!


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## Lambsauce (Nov 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I'm glad you're going to check out the book. It's difficult to always be an "unconditional parent" but I think it's a good goal to reach for.

Again, perhaps consider getting a punching bag and boxing gloves, hanging it in the basement or garage, and letting her go at it. That has to feel so much more "rewarding" than hitting a pillow. You can really feel the "umph" of a punching bag, which is probably the satisfaction she is getting from kicking the wall.

I have to agree with that. When I feel the need to hit something, a pillow just does not do it, it's way too soft and gives no satisfaction in hitting. Definitely look into something like a punching bag that would take her violent energy better.
Not that that's a permanent solution by any means, just a more non-destructive way that she can let out her anger until you can find a counsellor you're all comfortable with.
Big







to all of you.


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## emiLy (Sep 4, 2005)

I COMPLETELY understand that this isn't an isolated incident, and that you were distracted etc. BUT Why couldn't you and your husband gone away from the computer to argue? It seems silly that she would have to leave YOU when YOU are the ones needing to be alone. Seems like she should have been able to use the computer.

Why does she despise her grandpa so much? That kind of leaped out at me too.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

good luck!! My dd is in counselling finally (she's 16) For myself yoga does amazing things, would she like yoga? I've got not good answers but just try to remember how much you love her and give yourself some relief w/ a break to do what you enjoy.


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## vancouverlori (Sep 5, 2003)

Wow, Synthea, I found 11 to be hard. But the kicking holes in walls, esp. when you're renting, I bet that really stresses you out. And she knows it, right? She's definitely acting something out. I'm in the middle of reading _Raising your Spirited Child_ and I'm finding it's got tons of information on working *with* your child's and your temperament in mind. _Positive Discipline_ may also have some tools you can use. The latter chapters of _Hold On to Your Kids_ might also be useful - she needs to be oriented to you, otherwise she has no reason to listen to you.

I still would recommend counseling, ASAP. With your family history, I think this is something where you should reach out for help. Are you associated through a school or other organization that might offer such services? Or are you near a college that might offer such services at a discount? When I was a student (and single mom) I went through a counseling service on campus that was really helpful - the counselor just acted as a sounding board and asked me questions that I didn't think to ask myself. I would avoid "psychoanalysis", but regular old counseling should be ok. And if you can find an Adlerian psychologist or even a local Adlerian association - they may help you figure out why your daughter is doing this and help you find ways to fix it.


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## AMagicalWishxoxo (Jan 24, 2007)

I am a teenager myself, 16 years old, and I've done the whole "my parents dont get me, I am going to throw the whole tantrum thing around"
Many teens go through what it would seem like they don't care about anybody but you also have to understand that we feel like everyone is out to get us. KWIM ? Your daughter seems that shes reaching out but doesn't know how to grasp on how to get your attention. When I was asked to do something, or go somewhere, and I really just wanted to be along I acted out. I always felt being alone would help clear my mind. But I also knew after I had my little "fits" I wanted my mom or dad to come in my room and try to talk to me even if I was yelling back at them I wanted them to see how much I needed them at that time. Maybe she just wants some sort of attention and love from you. Without the whole "I Love you" and hugs ordeal. Not counciling but maybe do a mother/daughter day do something fun and talk. Once a week even. It could possibly help and when she has her fits dont bang your head in a wall LOL. just let her go on with her fit and then the next mother/daughter day you can ask her if theres something that she needs to talk about instead of asking her while shes already in the heat of being angry.

sorry for the long post but ive had my emotional and physical breakdowns like your daughters before.








<33 Italy


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## G8P4 (Jan 21, 2007)

I have to agree with amagicalwishxoxo....

My son is now 17 and our house still bears the trauma, holes in walls, doors, in various states of repair, and he is now the most lovely person- not just me who thinks so. This stage shall pass, just like the toddler years did. But where I agree with the PP is, try to find some way of seeing the positive in your child. Sometimes your child needs an affirmation of your love even when you most feel like pushing them away. Maybe not the hugs and I love you ordeal....but some way of sharing some postiive time. Friends- yours- can help here...they can help you see the good things about your child, and the good things about you as a mother. Self esteem can take the biggest bashing here.

What helped me was my friends supporting me and telling me I was doing a good job, and that, yes, it was very very hard.

It *is* a very hard space to be in, for you both. Hang in there!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I keep thinking about you and your daughter, and I just want to hug you both.









I happened across this statistic in a local paper today:

"Experts say 70 percent of children who grow up in violent homes will end up in violent adult relationships."

(You can read the whole article at http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660203879,00.html)

and it made me realize that your dd really needs professional help (in addition to that punching bag!) As another poster mentioned, please see your dd as sick and in need of help to get whole again.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I don't have much advice to add. All I can think of is this might be something you just have to ride through. I have not read the book mentioned but maybe that thought is in there. I dunno. Your dd sounds alot like a hurt animal (a disclaimer of my own: no I'm not calling her an animal) pushed to a corner, lashing out and trying to hold her ground. You seem to understand where that anger is coming from too. She might need counseling and I'm not knocking it... but that always seems the answer. In some cases it is. And others, well maybe not. You could try to be on the lookout for triggers and try to headoff some of her fear. If she saw you being beat by your ex she probably has very accute reaction to any conflict. I can see her getting upset when you're having an intense discussion with your current dh if in the past that led to you being hurt. She just might need lots of time to come accept that is not the way it is now. I really like the idea of trying to giv her outlets to express her anger that do not involve ruining your home. Also, if she is in a sport like karate or anything, maybe that will help her feel better in how she earns your pride. I can't imagine her liking how she get "points from you" now. It is too slimy (not the right word but I hope ykwm) and beneath the way you know you raised her. She knows deep down it is not right but does not seem to be able to break it.








s

PS- I really like how their are teens on mdc


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## Susie1 (Mar 3, 2007)

I can relate to your feelings of being a failure. I have been there and it feels like hell. I am grateful that I felt like hell rather than justified or indifferent, because the feeling that I was in hell prompted me to make changes in the way I viewed my role as a parent. Emotions are often indicators of a need for change. You are looking for alternatives and that is a sign that you are looking for better ways. I think it takes a lot of courage to be critical of ourselves as parents and even more to admit that we have not found the best way to do this.

It sounds like your dd gets very resentful when being punished. I have learned that punishing escalates frustration, even when using the "nice voice". In fact, I can see from the teen's perspective how that would be even more maddening...a kind of "Don't pretend you are being nice when you are punishing me." thing. What do you think punishing will solve? In my opinion and from personal experience, it leads to resentment and a poisoning of a healthy relationship. What are your thoughts on never again punishing your dd?


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

She wasn't being punished when I sent her to her room, she hadn't even asked yet to play on the computer. DH and I started arguing, I stopped, asked DD to go read in her room, she complained she wanted to play on the computer and stormed off. It was like







: I went in to talk to her, tell her I wasn't mad at her and say I was sorry for making her leave and she just glared at me, it wasn't til about 20 minutes later that DH discovered the hole.

Yes, I am looking at what I am doing with her as wrong, but I don't think I could do anything right.

She was only 3 when it happened, and she was in a couple years of counseling then for everything that was going on. She was kicked out finally because there was nothing wrong and the insurance wouldn't pay anymore! The only thing she can remember from our big fight is that her bio dad stepped on her foot on accident and she cried. Counseling couldn't bring any more out of her, so I don't think there's any more to remember, where she was so young. I have no memories before the age of 5 myself.

DD isn't growing up in a violent home. She was in one until she was 3, but not since and never will be again.

I do talk to her, and just let her talk without any judgement, but I guess it's not enough. I give her us time, DH gives her time. I truly feel like it's a "no matter what I do, it'll never be enough" because I'm giving her the us time, the love, the time for herself, the ability to be herself. I ask out of her no more then she can handle and bust my ass every day to make sure she knows she's loved and we want her in our home and in our family. I guess I'm angry and sad today because I look back over the years and realize that no matter what I did, it was never enough. She's been temperamental since she was born, just how I always was and still am, but refuses to use the tools I've given her to control the destructive out bursts. So frustrated.

I guess I'll get a punching bag on payday.

She despises my dad because he's a jerk. I take care of him because I am the last of 5 kids and the rest gave up trying. He's not the reason she's acting like this, she's been temperamental since before she ever met him, but he definitely sets her off teasing and picking on her (and my other kids). He's an ass, but it's not an option to put him in a home. We get plenty of time without him, when he's feeling well enough we can go overnight without him so we'll go camping and whatnot.

Can you ell I'm







: and lost here?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 

She despises my dad because he's a jerk. I take care of him because I am the last of 5 kids and the rest gave up trying. He's not the reason she's acting like this, she's been temperamental since before she ever met him, but he definitely sets her off teasing and picking on her (and my other kids). He's an ass, but it's not an option to put him in a home. We get plenty of time without him, when he's feeling well enough we can go overnight without him so we'll go camping and whatnot.

Can you ell I'm







: and lost here?

Yes, I feel for you. Do you tell your dad he is a jerk and an ass? Do you stick up for your kids in front of him? Do you tell him, where your dd can hear, that it's not ok for him to pick on your kids? If not, that could be doing a lot of damage. I really admire you for taking care of your father, but I wouldn't do it at the expense of my children's self-esteem. I would say, "look dad, these are the rules for living here. Period." And mean it.

And clarification: I didn't mean to imply that your dd is currently living in a violent home, just that she had before.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Amy, it looks like you have a lot of changes taking place in your lives right now. I can see where your dd might feel like she has absolutely NO control in her life, and that can be frustrating for anyone - especially a pre-teen who is getting to the point in her life where she wants MORE control.

I second the suggestion that part of her problem might be hormonal. My sons started maturing early (body hair, acne, etc), and age 11 was an emotional roller coaster for them (even though their lives were otherwise very stable). We saw more tears last year that we had seen in the previous five. We talked a lot about puberty, and homornal changes, and the fact that it WOULD get better! I remember one of my sons screaming "I HATE puberty!" Knowing that it was a temporary condition really helped them get through it.

You mentioned moving and homeschooling. Does your dd have many friends? Does she belong to any organizations (music, dance, sports, etc)? Could part of her frustration be caused by loneliness?

I don't have any advice - just hugs for all of you.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
She despises my dad because he's a jerk. I take care of him because I am the last of 5 kids and the rest gave up trying. He's not the reason she's acting like this, she's been temperamental since before she ever met him, but he definitely sets her off teasing and picking on her (and my other kids). He's an ass, but it's not an option to put him in a home. We get plenty of time without him, when he's feeling well enough we can go overnight without him so we'll go camping and whatnot.

This really stands out to me. "teasing" and "picking on" an 11 year old can quickly translate into major self-esteem issues for the kid. What you see as annoying, jerky and rude can quickly get internalized by a kid that age, especially if she remembers Gramps being nicer to her at one time. And it can happen even if the teasing is pretty infrequent. Kids really pick up on that kind of thing. Someone said she may feel like everyone is out to get her - I think the grandfather might really be exacerbating these feelings.

When he's being a jerk, do you stand up for your dd? If he says something borderline, do you step in and say, "That's not true, dd was _______" or otherwise stick up for her? I think that would go a long way towards making her feel better about you and about herself. It's important to remember that while YOU may realize that he's "just being a jerk," if you don't say much to stick up for her, she's going to think that you agree with every rude, crummy thing he does/says to her because you don't stop him. And talking to him alone really isn't enough. You have to defend your dd, when appropriate, right in front of everyone. Make it known that that kind of treatment of your child/children is unacceptable in your home.

It's wonderful and hard that you're taking responsibility for your dad. But at the same time, if he's being an ass to your dd, you owe it to her to do something about it (and not just expect her to "get it" because we all pitch in, make sacrifices, etc.). Depending on how mean or caustic he is, it could really be a painful, poisonous influence in your dd's psychological health and no amount of "But you understand, we have to take care of Gramps" will make her feel better when he's being a jerk to her. It will just make her feel like, at least on some level, you agree with him.

Sorry to write a novel. Obviously, I've had personal experience with this kind of situation . . . as the kid.







I hope it helps a little to see where some of her frustration/perspective might be coming from.

Julia
dd 1 year old


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

It sounds like your DD has had to deal with a lot in her short life. I can empathize with her. I agree with the PP who said that she might be feeling like nothing is within her control.

Back to your feeling that she should be happier because she has it better than you did, have you talked to her about how you grew up? Can you tell her a story about how hard it was to grow up with your dad? Have you talked to her about the reasons why you've taken him in?

Also, I don't mean to step on toes, but have you considered sending her out to school? Is she interested in trying it? Just getting out of the house every day might relieve some stress on both of you. I understand if there are reasons behind your homeschooling that make that impossible, but I had some homeschooling relatives who had a similar issue with a child and they ended up putting him in school, and it really helped them.

I hope you find a way to make things better for both of you.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I tried posting twice earlier and both times, my ever mobile 9 month old got to the power button on top of my computer







I had looooong posts written, and just don't have the oomph to type all it again, so I apologize if this sounds weird...

Public school has always been an option. She's not interested, nor am I. We're working on the friends thing (YMCA, Camp Fire Kids, SCA or other medieval group, etc).

My dad: I stick up for her and back him the hell off immediately and abruptly. He's from a very odd era and thinks his way is right, so it's a never ending battle. We talk about how he is going senile often so she understands he's lonely and just doesn't understand the right way to ask for attention. She mostly ignores him. DH is a great dad for the whole male role model thing.

I distinctly, and painfully, remember the years from about 8-15 (when I got pg and actually grew up). I remember the pain and loneliness and helplessness and fear and hatred and jealousy of other kids...maybe I'm trying to hard to make her happy and just need to let her be? Everything else I'm doing, all the hands on, caring stuff, isn't working.

I think I got most of what I had typed before, just not written as well







Sorry! Scatterbrained bad today....


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

That's great what you said about sticking up for her. I'm not surprised, since you seem very on top of things in your home.

We have some of this with dh's little sister, who's almost 14 and really more his daughter than his sister (large age difference, her dad is an alcoholic, there's been a divorce, etc.)

I think that part of what you said at the end is so true. That being that age is hard no matter what, and that there is only so much you can do to help her to feel better . . . the rest is just suffering through adolescence. I remember it as the most difficult time of my life emotionally, and I'd never want to go back. I remember pretty much everyone was pretty darn miserable most of the time, though we found plenty of ways to have fun (some of them not very healthy).

So I want to make dSIL feel better all the time, but I also know that some of that is just what it is, and I can't fix it. I can just try to be accessible if she ever wants to talk or needs me. I can tell you're doing that for your dd.

It sounds like you're very in tune with her, communicate well, and are doing your best.







I hope things improve.

Julia
dd 1 year old


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

When dh and I are having a disagreement we go in the bedroom or outside, wherever we can talk alone. It does sound like your dd is really hurting. I don't care is a mask for pain. For caring and for not feeling safe. Counseling really can make a huge difference in peoples lives if they are willing to be honest and work on their personal issues. Sounds like the whole family could benefit.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
When dh and I are having a disagreement we go in the bedroom or outside, wherever we can talk alone. It does sound like your dd is really hurting. I don't care is a mask for pain. For caring and for not feeling safe. Counseling really can make a huge difference in peoples lives if they are willing to be honest and work on their personal issues. Sounds like the whole family could benefit.

ITA.







to the OP and your Dd.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

My dd gets very grumpy after dh and I argue. I have a lot of personality and am VERY dramatic so it's been work to keep the drama down for her.
Do you think it's at all possible that the arguing was a trigger for her? Like it triggered a bad feeling from her early childhood?

You are in such a hard situation with your dad. It's great that you are so vocal about sticking up for your dd.

I have no great advice but I don't think you should feel like you failed your dd. Eleven is a hard age and there is a lot going on in your family.


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## doulamomvicki (Nov 4, 2003)

to you mama and your family.

Another book that is a great resource for parenting the difficult child is Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser. I took the series of class as CEUs for work and got so much out it. I have 2 really high spirited/strong willed kids and what I learned in this book/the class transformed our parenting of them. Things are so much better! Here is the website http://www.difficultchild.com/


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Synthea, I hope you and dd are having better days at present. My dd also saw me being beaten up and verbally abused. I have set some serious boundaries this week concerning pc time, going out and general attitude. My dd has been going about going on about how I'm ruining her life! by setting these boundaries, but I have stuck firm. She immediately attacked me when I told her of my intentions( to remove the pc for a coupla months til she can sort herself out) It will pay off and I think she is sleeping better already just by getting to bed earlier. I find it hard having no back-up/support bringing the dc up on my own and we are financially poor which has it's own stigma. My dd has got some interviews for partime jobs, I think this will really help her be more responsible. Streuth I was working at age 10. My dd is coming up 15.I'm gonna stick to my boundaries despite the constant complaining. So







and hope things improve soon.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

FWIW - my 11 yr old has responded very well to "alone time" with me. We can talk about things better out of the house. We go to a coffee shop (and you know what - I get him a coffee!* ) I think it makes him feel like I am acknowledging that he is growing up - something he craves from me...

(((HUGS)))

Kathy
* disclaimer: he only gets a coffee once a week or so, no flames!







:


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

i don't think your daughter needs professional help, just a bit of perspective. Here is what I do...

I go into my dds room when she starts getting out of line and I remove every scrap of what we call "luxuries". I lock them up. I'm talking DVDs, Comp.Games and all her cool clothes. Each good behavior is rewarded by allowing her one thing back.

It works, my dd slips up (as mother nature intended her to rebel against her mom and move away from the tribe around 9 years old!!!) so its a natural thing but mostly she catches herself mid "bad behaviour" and stops it, which gets a hug...

GOOD LUCK


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## Susie1 (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Muaile* 

I go into my dds room when she starts getting out of line and I remove every scrap of what we call "luxuries". I lock them up. I'm talking DVDs, Comp.Games and all her cool clothes. Each good behavior is rewarded by allowing her one thing back.

GOOD LUCK

From Personal Experiecne

The price paid: resentment
What is learned: manipulation and tit for tat

Is that what you want your dd to learn?

It might come back to bite you in the you know what.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I remember the pain and loneliness and helplessness and fear and hatred and jealousy of other kids...maybe I'm trying to hard to make her happy and just need to let her be?
This seems crucial to me. Your posts sound like a mama who is trying really hard to make everything perfect for her kid, but is learning that her happiness is not entirely in your control. Letting go some -- recognizing that she is the only one who can decide to be happy -- might aleviate some of the stress you are feeling. A little emotional detachment (in terms of being in control and feeling responsible) might be helpful to you. Your feelings of success or failure do not need depend on her behavior.

Quote:

_We haven't raised her this way. I know too many kids who are like this and I've deliberately tried to raise her not to be so selfish and uncaring, but I failed_
From your first post. This line of reasoning seems faulty to me, and makes me feel concerned that you are carrying a burden that you don't need to. We don't really get to decide how our kids will be, what choices they will make, etc. We maybe can influence them, but they make choices, and they have stuff going on inside of them that we didn't necessarily plant there, and that we can't necessarily control.

I don't know the answer to the problem of kicking holes in the wall. But something is telling me that distinguishing her actions and feelings from your parenting goals might be a good first step in feeling better. She is her own person.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

P.S. - I once read in a parenting book that parents should not be judged by their children's behavior, but instead by their reactions to their children's behavior.


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susie1* 
From Personal Experiecne

The price paid: resentment
What is learned: manipulation and tit for tat

Is that what you want your dd to learn?

It might come back to bite you in the you know what.


No I want my dd to learn that bad behaviour has a consequence and that the authorities (me now, the state later) will see punishments through. I have, in return, for being strict a very good child. People comment on her fine behaviour all the time. Children need discipline. Trying to be their "friend" never works. A mothers job is to teach her kids how to live in the world, and the world is a place where everything doesn't always go your way. We need to learn Patience, and disappointment, and all the things we need to equip ourselves for the future. My mother was strict on bad behaviour and very rewarding on good. She took us around the world, to concerts and restaurants because she knew we wouldn't risk acting up.

I adore my mother. We are very close.


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh and I'm only strict when my dd acts badly, we have a very good relationship, and a really fun time as a family. But I take no shit. So she doesn't try it on. Therefore we have a great time.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I'm editing the first part of this post as I was mixed up about which forum I was in and thought I was in GD. Sorry about that! I still think that taking away a child's posessions is not a good idea for many reasons.

However, it is against the UA to use profanity in any forum and I think that "I take no shit" is not an appropriate phrase to use when discussing the immature actions of an angry child.

As for the OP - I normally read your posts with interest and agreement, Synthea, so keep that in mind with my reply. I think that counseling is absolutely warranted for a child who spent her attachment-creating years in a violent home, who has a sibling with a developmental disability, who lives with a grandfather who has anger issues, and who obviously has anger issues that are not in proportion to the events angering her. I work with children with developmental disabilities, and I have to say that almost 100% of their siblings need some counseling. Just having a sibling with disabilities of any type causes a lot of emotional issues with children both related to their roles as a child/sibling/helper and to their relationship with their parents. I highly recommend "Being the Other One": growing up with a sibling with special needs by Kate Strohm.

Your daughter's behavior is not normal teenage behavior. I was a very angry teenager for a variety of reasons but I never kicked holes in the wall because I couldn't use the computer. I wonder how it makes her feel when you argue with your DH. She could be experiecing PTSD, or worrying that if you argue, it might lead to violence, even if it never has before. Because those fears and feelings are very hard to overcome. So she might be reacting to that.

Furthermore, she is entering a stage of life where she is starting to be more independent and have more independence expected of her, but she is not yet prepared for it. And given how much younger her siblings are (I'm not sure which has the disability), this can create feelings of anger and confusion in her. So on the one hand, she is starting to be included in those grown-up decisions and yet she obviously is resentful about the amount of time you need to spend caring for her brothers and your father. And feeling resentful about having to care for a sibling with a disability and being unable to do certain things because of it is very common. Particularly with developmental disabilities. There's also the fact that since she is so much older than all of her siblings, none of them can be playmates like, say, a sibling of 1-2 years difference could be. Then there are several, AND one has a disability that requires even more care. (thinking about it from her stance.)

I might start, if I were you, by reading the book I suggested and perhaps dealing with that aspect of the family first. Many children are unsure of how much responsibility/care they are supposed to give the sibling with a disability - often the role model they get is just the parent, who obviously has a different relationship with the sibling than they should. Many of the siblings I interact with of my students try to take on a more parental role than is natural or developmentally appropriate because that is what they see modeled for them (of course!) And this often makes them feel like they need to be more responsible than they really do. I work with them to help them find a role for themselves that lets them interact in a "helpful peer" way rather than a parental way.

There are therapists who specialize in families with a child with a disability. There are also peer support and activity groups for siblings of children with disabilities that are free which sounds like it might be good for your daughter to both talk to other kids about what it's like, and to have more typical peer activities.

There's also the issue that you brought up of moving a lot, and of her not being able to develop friendships because of moving and homeschooling, and I bet she has to spend a lot of time with her younger siblings and watching you having to split your time between doing her home schooling and caring for them. It must be really annoying to have little kids interrupting your school all the time.

This is a bit rambling, I realize, but I'm just trying to get all my thoughts out there. Basically, I think there are several issues contributing to her behavior, and they must be addressed one at a time. I can totally understand you wanting to tear your (or her!) hair out - it sounds very overwhelming, especially to see her displaying behavior that you never do. If she was in public school, she could receive counseling there. As she isn't, I would look around the area and see what is available. Are there any homeschooling coops or groups you could join? Some switch where the school is offered each day so that several families share houses and schooling. It sounds like you also spend all day together, with exception of scheduled activities, and if you are having issues with each other, that's never going to give you each time to cool off and think about things without the other person being there.

Also - how much time do you get to yourself with four children and a father to care for? Do you have a regular babysitter or respite provider so that you can spend time with your DH alone, or does he spend regular time with the children so you get some alone time for yourself?


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## mama3x's (Dec 14, 2006)

She didn't say she took all her belongings just the good stuff. But what do I know I'm new her too.









The only advice I have is to keep a cool head. Sounded like to me she is trying to get a reaction out of you. I would definately have some unpleasant consequence but limit the amt of attention the behavior gets. Also, I kinda had a couple meannie grandparents and it was very hurtful to me as a young teenager. So don't minimize the impact from your dad. Everyone always talks about how much grandparents love their grandchildren and here she has this jerk putting her down. I bet in some way she thinks its b/c there is something wrong or unloveable about her.

Good luck, I'm sure it'll get better.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

havent read all the replies, just the op and a couple below it.

Your daughter sounds alot like my brother and I as children, except we used basebal bats and fists instead of feet for the walls. Or eachother for that matter.

I had no reasons to be angry, I just was. I felt oppressed almost all of the time weather I was or wasn't and when someone actually attempted to overtly excersize authority over me it went bad.

My brother was the same way but he had reasons for his anger, least from the outside looking in, and he is 3+ years older than me.

So from my experiance there may be no answer to this. Things will get better but it will take self realization for your daughter to do it. My mom tried counselors for my brother, it made things worse, but I think that is because that specific counselor encouraged my brother to beat inanimate objects which included trees, the outside of hte house, and furniture, and when he went for furniture my mom said 'enough of counseling.'

Looking back on it I think it is a natural tendancy for youth trying to find themselves to try to exert control over their surroundings, and when they are reminded that they really have ZERO control they get angry and will possibly express that anger abruptly and how they feel nessesary. Your daughter is currently venting this anger on your walls. You may want to look at this from another perspective.

Your daughter is what? 12? she is still a child in your, and most other peoples, eyes. However she feels the inbetween phase. If she doesn't want you exerting your authority over her there has to be middle grounds. Grounds where you all can have a sit down conversation that all can agree to. My suggestion is letting her have FIRST say and not rebutting ANYTHING you can avoid rebutting. Basically everyone sit down, not including siblings, and you lay down the topic of the conversation and ask her if she has any input. The topic I would lay down is that, if I was in the situation with my experiance, is that "I understand that you are becoming a lovely young woman and you want to experiance everything involved with this, and we want to help you get those experiances. What can we as a family do to bring you up in partnership in the household?" Find your own way of expressing it, but something along the lines of acknowledging she is becoming more mature and with maturity comes responsibilities and PRIVILAGES.

Get HER to outline what responsibilities she thinks are fair but let her know you may be adding some, and ask her what privilages she would like to test out and see where she goes with that. Let her know that you know she will make mistakes along the way, thats human, and she won't lose the privilages so long as she can come up with ways ON HER OWN to fix the mistakes she makes.

I could be entirely off base, but I've worked with troubled youth and 9 times out of 10 they are troubled because they feel oppressed because of their age. It is up to the parent to find ways to emphasize the privilages and responsibilites aspect and what happens when an adult falls short and how an adutl reacts to certain failures. If the household isn't providing and example for the words you use though, then the whole plan will fall through.

Also let her know that as adults you and your SO/DH (whatever) will also be making mistakes and when it is something in the open you may want to consider bringing her into confidence (when appropriate) to how you or papa are handling the mistakes on your ends and what you do to rectify them as adults.

Plans like this take time to mold and never work out at first, the child will almost ALWAYS test to see if you are lieing about taking privilages away, multiple times, by breaking the rules and seeing if you will truly treat them as somewhat of an equal in matters when they make mistakes. The beginning of this plan can be hard, but it CAN work if you are dedicated to it as a parent.

If nothing in that makes sense to you, then don't even listen to it, just my perspective from being a 'child' feeling oppressed to an adult helping children dealing with parents whom they find oppressive. There are always middle grounds, you just have to work to find them.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
She wasn't being punished when I sent her to her room, she hadn't even asked yet to play on the computer. DH and I started arguing, I stopped, asked DD to go read in her room, she complained she wanted to play on the computer and stormed off. It was like







: I went in to talk to her, tell her I wasn't mad at her and say I was sorry for making her leave and she just glared at me, it wasn't til about 20 minutes later that DH discovered the hole.


just wanted to focus on that. You didn't do anything wrong, you weren't punishing her. But from her perspective, in my opinion even if she can't verbalize it because at that age I know I had no idea why I felt the way I did, she feels that she has no control over the situation, she just has to do what you say. And then she overts control over what she can.

My brother would wind up beating the hell out of me when someone did this to him because I was an easy target and he felt the need to express the control he had over something smaller than him because someone bigger was expressing control over him....

just my perspective and most people don't see it that way as an adult telling their children what to do. And most kids won't react the way your daughter is, so my advice from my last post stands.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

_"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."_

*PikkuMyy*

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household









kathy


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
_"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."_

*PikkuMyy*

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household









kathy


So long as you aren't advocating violance of any kind towards children, then yes. So long as your advice/conversation is about the tennants of mothering, then yes.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I really appreciate these posts. No time to get into a lengthy post right now, but I'm glad I posted. I'll come back and address individual points and questions later


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

also after thinking about it.

If, for example, your daughter was having a conversation with her daddy that she felt was important and said 'please go to your room now' and you said 'but I need to finish.... (thinking of something you may like) knitting this sweater!(just go with it)' and she said 'now please' and you went, you as an adult would understand, through your experiance, that she had something important to discuss and you would get over the small sleight of being asked to leave the situation for her benefit.

However your daughter doesn't have that experiance yet. She is learning how to deal with being asked to leave, however being asked to leave previously in her life has probably generally been something of a disciplinary action (if she is like most children), so even though you did not intend it to be any form of discipline, she may automatically get the same emotions she has gotten since she was 3 and asked to leave a situation instinctually.

That isn't something that can be trained/taught and then turned off just because someone else wants you to understand. If being asked to go to a room has been a punishment before, basically no matter how it is worded, it could be a trigger for her to get angsty (is that a word) and want to express it. Knowing that if she expressed it to your face it would produce immediate results she wouldn't want she bottled it up and let it out when it boiled over.

all conjecture (s/p) but just laying it out.....Trying to work through this in my head from as many child points of view as possible. Understanding all points of view is how I try to resolve situations in my life. Can you tell?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I know when she was little, seeing me beat up by her bio dad, affected her

Your daughter needs counseling. That combined with living with a developmentally delayed sibling could stress any child to the breaking point.

I read and understood your whole post. I am also dealing with an extremely angry child. My 12 year old was adopted 10 months ago. She is HIV+, watched her parents die of AIDS, was separated from her siblings, and spent 4 years in an orphanage. Then she was brought to a place where she hates the food, had to learn the language, had to adapt to a family environment, etc. I understand about angry kids, believe me.

Your daughter needs counseling.

Anger like your daughter has cannot be "treated" by you. It's very possible that watching you be abused created attachment issues. That's not something you can sort out yourself. Honestly, get over your lack of trust of counselors and find one for your daughter. Almost every city/town has free/sliding scale fee counseling. Call your local United Way or your local children's hospital. Ask your pediatrician or your librarian (ours has an astonishing knowledge of local resources). If your child goes to school, ask her teacher. Someone will know where to send you.

For the wall-kicking episode, require your child to do chores to earn the money for the materials to patch the wall. Have her patch the wall. If it is not perfect, have her patch it again. Rinse and repeat.

We use behavior modification with our daughter. Anger may explain her behavior but it is not a license to continue to act that way. Until she has resolved the anger to the point that she is capable of choosing to act appropriately, we lay the rules and consequences out plainly and make things very simple. The rest of the family can not be held hostage to our daughter's bad behavior.

We even have consequences for bad attitude, because the bad attitude in our home was stressing my younger kids so badly that that their behavior was deteriorating. We hold our daughter accountable for her role in preserving the family peace. We take as much emotion out of it as possible and treat it like a chore. At this point, as our daughter learns to live in a family, that is what she needs. It may very well be the same with your daughter. There is no telling how much witnessing your abuse affected her.

Hugs to you, mama.

Namaste!

Ps. Forgot to say: If you lose your deposit over the hole, have your daughter pay the deposit.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

kathy

Me and my big mouth. I was reading Gentle Discipline right before I read this thread and because it was discipline-related, I just blended the two. Sorry about that - I will go and edit.


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
_"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."_

*PikkuMyy*

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household









kathy


Hey hey hey, first of all I take her nintendo and her "cool clothes" away when she acts badly, I don't hit or beat my kid. I have an extremely well behaved child who understands actions = consequences.

I certainley take enormous umbrage with it being implied that this is not Gentle discipline? What is gentle then? Talking about it? Eh... come on... isn't parenting a bit past the "lets talk about why you hit your brother?" that NEVER works.... children need authority without fear. Thats what we have in my house....

God remind me never to offer good advice.

As for the language issue, my apologies, I'm from ireland and we curse alot!


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Muaile* 
Talking about it? Eh... come on... isn't parenting a bit past the "lets talk about why you hit your brother?" that NEVER works.... children need authority without fear. Thats what we have in my house....


I disagree. My intent is to get my dc to a point where even if no one is around to enforce the rules, they will still do the right thing. I want my dc'c authority to stem from their own sense of justice and peace. If I train them that I am an authority figure and the enforcer or someone else is, how then can I expect them to be truly free?


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Muaile...I think there may have been a miscommunication (which never happens on the internet where we can't talk face to face







)... I was defending your right to offer up what has worked in your household.

As a side note, I also remove priveleges when deemed necessary (in addition to other forms of guidance) and it does work. Peace.

Kathy


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Muaile...I think there may have been a miscommunication (which never happens on the internet where we can't talk face to face







)... I was defending your right to offer up what has worked in your household.

As a side note, I also remove priveleges when deemed necessary (in addition to other forms of guidance) and it does work. Peace.

Kathy









: I quoted the wrong person! I was offering a tip so I got a bit frazzled when replies came in that seemed to imply I was being a bad parent.

I have to say, I may be new here, but I'm not new to parenting. I've raised my dd by myself until two years ago, and I have never ever had anyone, not a teacher, my mother, my friends, neighbors, nobody has ever had anything but praise for how nicely behaved she is and what a joy it is to have her around. I know thats down to her feeling secure and safe with me. I truly truly believe that children feel safe knowing their boundaries. I do not think children will choose the right path in their lives without boundaries at home. I know alot of people think thats the way, I've seen nothing but bad results with that type of parenting. I've seen the children of people who "talk through" problems take the absolute water out of their parents. It may work for other people but I think there is a huge risk of the child becoming manipulative and using key words and subjects to get out of trouble. I did it myself. Any time I wanted to get out of having disrupted a family meal I would say a boy had broken my heart, instead of admitting I was just being a brat.

I'm sorry if people have got the impression that I'm some sort of tyrant....


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Still not quite ready for formulate a large post (maybe when the little ones are napping) but I want to pop in and say all the responses are appreciated, including your Muaile. Your system works for you and your DD and if she isn't acting out like my DD, you're obviously doing better then I am.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

You do not sound like a bad mom to me. Let me review what I have learned from reading your thread:

* You got out of an abusive marriage, protecting her from further harm
* You are willing to do what it takes to make schooling work for her, whether it's homeschooling or public school
* You hold her accountable when she breaks things, requiring her to clean up the mess if she's not able to actually fix the hole properly.
* You support her in conflicts with her grandfather
* You are modeling taking care of a difficult family member by taking your dad in (to me, that's significant and good.)

Here's what other people have said upthread that I agree with:

* the trauma of being a witness to violence in an important formative stage may have compromised her resilience. If she has anger issues, they might require clinical treatment to improve.

(I know that some people in the helping professions are jerks. I believe you have the ability to pick someone who is actually good and will help.)

*there are some interventions that you can do now to undo the harm of the earlier violence. Actually, it sounds like you probably are doing them.

* You can ask her for her input on how to resolve the problems you are having with her. She's 11 and she knows what she is doing is wrong. Maybe she also has ideas about how to improve her own behavior. That can start even before she gets therapy. Take her seriously as an expert on her own misbehavior and how to fix it.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Your system works for you and your DD and if she isn't acting out like my DD, you're obviously doing better then I am.










Please don't think this way! Nobody here is raising your dd except for you... so none of us have the particular expertise that you have with your child. She is a unquiqe individual with a complicated history. She requires individualized care and nurture. What works for Muaile's daughter might well push your dd over the edge and make things even worse. It really sounds like you've been there for your kid in all the right ways.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

No problem, Muaile...









Synthea - I was thinking about your situation....

First off, I would make her patch this hole and any further ones (and worry about the deposit privately and later...her learning not to do this sort of thing is more important, kwim?) I would also make her pay for the repair supplies.

I have been thinking about counselling, and I know not everyone is going to choose it. Some people have great results and somehave negative results and some just waste their money...but how about a youth or family anger management group? It is OK for her to be angry...but learning how to recognise the physical symptoms behind when she is climbing that anger mountain, what the true feelings behind that anger are (fear, frustration, hurt), and ways to talk herself down before she makes a hole in the wall are all key. I think groups can be safer for some families than individual counselling, and may let her see other kids who are a) in her boat - she won't feel so alone and b) other kids and the natural consequences their poor anger management has gotten them.

Kathy


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Ok, #3 is watching zaboo and #4 is asleep, lets see if I can get this all typed out









I like the anger management idea. Though the movie comes to mind and my DD would kill her counselor







I will check into services around here. If DH's work insurance (available in 3 months) doesn't cover counseling, I'll suck it up and go apply at welfare for state medical. Trying to avoid them, I hate Oregon's system. I think having someone else tell her how to vent her anger will help a lot.

We don't send her to her room as punishment. I have never done that. As Dennis the Menace and I both learned, the bedroom is the perfect place to be punished because there's fun stuff in there!







She loses allowance, computer time, TV time, and has to do extra chores. So, asking her to go go to her room while DH and I argued wasn't, or shouldn't, have been seen as mean/punishment. She was just pissed off over not being able to play on the computer right then.

I haven't gotten to the library yet, to check out any books. Trying to do the library with this bunch requires DH, and sometimes the National Guard, so we only go when we run out of anything to read. I will though.

DD has lost her allowance until further notice. She was getting $10 a week and starting to see the rewards from it (bought her own rollerblades) so it's a fair punishment I think. The money she's not getting will go towards fixing the hole, which is going to take an entire plasterboard panel, it's that big, and figuring out how to do the texture on these walls.

DD does sometimes resent her bother(s). She treats them well but does quite often act like a big sister and pick on them. She doesn't get away with everything she does with them, but I don't come down hard on her for teasing them.

Before the babies came, I got one on one time with each of the older ones all the time. It was nice. She still acted like this though. Once DS3 is weaned/weaned enough, we'll resume "dates", and I've let her know that would happen.

Little one waking up, I'll go over the posts again later and address the stuff I didn't get to. Thank you for the advice and kind words, though I suppose until DD has grown up I will never feel like I've been successful with her.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

It's good to hear you have some plan formulated. Way to go! Be ready to be flexible and allow for input from dd (dh too!... but not implying you don't...) and I think you'll have an easier time finding some peace.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

Trying to do the library with this bunch requires DH, and sometimes the National Guard, so we only go when we run out of anything to read.
I can reserve/request books online at my library, and then they're waiting at the desk for me, no mobilization force required! Maybe yours does, too?


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Here's a question from a WoW player... lol

Did the kicking holes in walls behavior begin when she started playing WoW or other similar typse of games? Some of the thing that I've seen is that kids who play this game a lot can have huge, violent mood swings. They don't get that it's a game, it's supposed to be FUN, and they freak out in real life about ninjas and gankers (she'll know what that is







).

It was just a thought that occured to me as I was reading your post.









Quote:

DD has lost her allowance until further notice. She was getting $10 a week and starting to see the rewards from it (bought her own rollerblades) so it's a fair punishment I think. The money she's not getting will go towards fixing the hole, which is going to take an entire plasterboard panel, it's that big, and figuring out how to do the texture on these walls.
you could really go with this. Make HER get an estimate of how much it would take to fix it... make her do the research on how to repair sheetrock and call a hardware store, and then create an 'invoice' for the work that needs to be done based on her findings. Tell her that this is what she owes you and that you are 'garnishing' her, just like would happen if she damaged property of someone as an adult and went to court. I'd give her a percentage of her allowance and keep the rest for her bill. Talk to her about doing the work herself- how would that change the amount of the bill... it's important for her to see the consequences of her behavior and this would really make her responsible for all aspects of it. She might not get anything at ALL out of it other than not kicking a hole in the wall next time she's mad because she doesn't want to do all that work again!


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
She despises my dad because he's a jerk. I take care of him because I am the last of 5 kids and the rest gave up trying. He's not the reason she's acting like this, she's been temperamental since before she ever met him, but he definitely sets her off teasing and picking on her (and my other kids). He's an ass, but it's not an option to put him in a home.

I'm not an expert but this is really setting off alarm bells with me. Emotional and verbal abuse is still abuse. I have a lot of anger issues and some of it is due to that. I don't have any advice though


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## beccaboomom (May 22, 2005)

Quote:

You do not sound like a bad mom to me. Let me review what I have learned from reading your thread:

* You got out of an abusive marriage, protecting her from further harm
* You are willing to do what it takes to make schooling work for her, whether it's homeschooling or public school
* You hold her accountable when she breaks things, requiring her to clean up the mess if she's not able to actually fix the hole properly.
* You support her in conflicts with her grandfather
* You are modeling taking care of a difficult family member by taking your dad in (to me, that's significant and good.)
I agree with all of that.

My question is , has she always been like this? When she was little how did you handle her tantrums then? If she has always pitched some type of fit when things didn't go her way, then I would say this is a discipline problem. Have you always made excuses for her behavior? If this is a new behavior from a this child, then seeking outside help might be wise. I think it is hard to give advice on a forum because it is hard to get the big picture.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
_"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."_

*PikkuMyy*

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household









kathy

It doesn't matter that this isn't the GD forum. GD is considered to be one of the core AP practices which is what MDC is about an advocates.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Muaile* 
Hey hey hey, first of all I take her nintendo and her "cool clothes" away when she acts badly, I don't hit or beat my kid. I have an extremely well behaved child who understands actions = consequences.

I certainley take enormous umbrage with it being implied that this is not Gentle discipline? What is gentle then? Talking about it? Eh... come on... isn't parenting a bit past the "lets talk about why you hit your brother?" that NEVER works.... children need authority without fear. Thats what we have in my house....

God remind me never to offer good advice.

As for the language issue, my apologies, I'm from ireland and we curse alot!

You might want to venture into the GD forum and learn what it is. As your post makes it clear that you don't, and you belittle it. You do have a fear based relationship with your child. She fears you taking her stuff.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iamthesmilingone* 
I disagree. My intent is to get my dc to a point where even if no one is around to enforce the rules, they will still do the right thing. I want my dc'c authority to stem from their own sense of justice and peace. If I train them that I am an authority figure and the enforcer or someone else is, how then can I expect them to be truly free?


EXACTLY!


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
It doesn't matter that this isn't the GD forum. GD is considered to be one of the core AP practices which is what MDC is about an advocates.

Agreed but GD has many different practices and 'discipline' is in the definition.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

My point was that the rules of discussing discipline on MDC are universal, they aren't limited to one forum.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

_"My point was that the rules of discussing discipline on MDC are universal, they aren't limited to one forum."_ *Arduinna*

I would sincerely be grateful if you pointed out where this rule is written....

IMHO opinion, I hope it is not a rule - as it may preclude thoughful and helpful discussion.

Apologies to Synthea if this is thread-jacking a bit.....

Kathy

Edited to add: I read the rules in the User agreement. It mentions advocating loving discipline - which would apply to all threads. However, I do not think removing priveleges is contrary to "loving discipline".


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

The topics of what is gd and nfl for that matter are open discussions at MDC. I am not an old timer by any strength of the imagination yet can attest to how in depth those topics have been. And will continue to be. I think that is a good thing. Maybe, if people want to start a thread on what is gd'ing or loving discipline a teenager that would be better than doing it on this thread


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Arduinna said:


> You might want to venture into the GD forum and learn what it is. As your post makes it clear that you don't, and you belittle it. You do have a fear based relationship with your child. She fears you taking her stuff.[/QUOTE
> 
> First of all if you want to call "respect for other people" fear, then fine.
> 
> ...


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Muaile said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
> ...


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
She wasn't being punished when I sent her to her room, she hadn't even asked yet to play on the computer. *DH and I started arguing,* I stopped, asked DD to go read in her room, she complained she wanted to play on the computer and stormed off. It was like







: I went in to talk to her, tell her I wasn't mad at her and say I was sorry for making her leave and she just glared at me, it wasn't til about 20 minutes later that DH discovered the hole.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this stood out for me. When I was around that age, if my parents argued I often did things to distract their anger away from each other, usually by drawing it to myself. I could handle my parents being angry with me, I could not deal with them being angry with each other.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Synthea's daughter didn't just have an emotional outburst. She is dealing with consistent anger management issues - it's not normal teenage behavior. Paying for counseling to figure out the root of the anger is solving the problem rather than just putting a bandaid on it.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

After tonight, I'm definitely getting her into SOMETHING. In the time it took to blink, she went from fine to stomping, yelling and throwing a chair into my (the landlord's brand new) oven, almost breaking the glass. This one's entirely on her, I gave her a 30 minute, a 15 minute, and a 5 minute heads up that computer time was about over, then I told her to finish up that thing she was doing right then (read: she had time, and knew she did, to finish up, save her program and close any other windows she had going) and get off, get a snack, and get some reading done. All said just pleasantly, like 2 hours ago, I told her it was time to unload the dishwasher and she did it just fine. She just completely freaked out. I AM GOING NUTS WITH THIS GIRL. ARGGHHH! Gotta find something that'll help her/us, I just want to strangle her (you know, like Homer does to Bart...) Sigh. And we've been working so hard since I last posted. It seems to be getting worse.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

does she really need to use the computer. Maybe the computer could go on vacation til she gets a handle on her emotions. I am thinking counselling. ps my ex really did strangle my dd and it didn't work.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I think we'll limit the computer to (home)school work only. Don't worry, I won't strangle her, but I sure wanted to.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

I'm feeling really sad for your dd. Maybe she needs more compassion? She's obviously hurting inside a lot. I went through a stage like she's going through, and what I really needed most was compassion, empathy, and understanding. When I was in your dd's place, I just wanted my mother to understand why I was so angry and acknowledge that my anger was valid and appropriate. When instead she was simply frustrated and angry with me for my admittedly inconvenient behavior, I just felt even more alone in the world, which did nothing to improve my behavior.

I would echo the advice to seek counseling or maybe group therapy. Your dd is surely significantly traumatized by witnessing the abuse early in her life. She needs someone to help her see how that early abuse of you is affecting her today. Also, I too would consider your father's verbal abuse of your dd to be another probable cause of her misbehavior. I also had a male relative who was very critical of me, and he really hurt my feelings and lowered my self-esteem. If I had had to live with him the way your dd does, it really would have been unbearable to me. Home is supposed to be a haven, but how can it be for your dd if there is someone there who is regularly insulting her?


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:

Maybe she needs more compassion?
Please read all my posts:

Quote:

DH and I are affectionate with each other, we love the kids, we talk to them, we care and we show it.

Quote:

I do talk to her, and just let her talk without any judgement, but I guess it's not enough. I give her us time, DH gives her time. I truly feel like it's a "no matter what I do, it'll never be enough" because I'm giving her the us time, the love, the time for herself, the ability to be herself. I ask out of her no more then she can handle and bust my ass every day to make sure she knows she's loved and we want her in our home and in our family.

Quote:

I distinctly, and painfully, remember the years from about 8-15 (when I got pg and actually grew up). I remember the pain and loneliness and helplessness and fear and hatred and jealousy of other kids...maybe I'm trying to hard to make her happy and just need to let her be? Everything else I'm doing, all the hands on, caring stuff, isn't working.
As for counseling for the previously witnessed abuse:

Quote:

She was only 3 when it happened, and she was in a couple years of counseling then for everything that was going on. She was kicked out finally because there was nothing wrong and the insurance wouldn't pay anymore! The only thing she can remember from our big fight is that her bio dad stepped on her foot on accident and she cried. Counseling couldn't bring any more out of her, so I don't think there's any more to remember, where she was so young. I have no memories before the age of 5 myself.
My dad:

Quote:

My dad: I stick up for her and back him the hell off immediately and abruptly. He's from a very odd era and thinks his way is right, so it's a never ending battle. We talk about how he is going senile often so she understands he's lonely and just doesn't understand the right way to ask for attention. She mostly ignores him. DH is a great dad for the whole male role model thing.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Synthea, you seem to have decided that 1) because your daughter was only three when she witnessed the abuse and 2) because she's already been to counseling, the issue is closed and she's left it behind.

I think that's a very shortsighted way of looking at it.

Anger and trauma can re-emerge at many stages of life.

It's clear from your daughter's behavior that *something* is going on with her, and I honestly don't think it's for you to decide that it couldn't possibly be the abuse she witnessed as a young child. Maybe you are right and that's not it, but I think it bears some investigating.

I could very easily say that things that happened to my daughter as a young child no longer affect her, but her behavior says otherwise.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
Please read all my posts:

I did! I've read every single word of this entire thread, and I thought carefully about the whole situation before responding. It kind of hurts my feelings that you have responded to my ideas in such a snarky, dismissive manner.







I thought that since I have been where your daughter is now maybe my insights could be of some help. I wasn't trying to imply that you're not being compassionate at all, but the way I see it, there's always room for *more* compassion towards people.


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Maybe I remember this wrong (i.e it happened to the DD of another poster, not the OP), but wasn't it your daughter who last year went to live in another state with friends of yours and the husband in that household was arrested while in company of your DD and there was a CPS inqueiry before you got her back home?

If so, that incident alone would warrant tons of counseling, I think. If I confuse you woth another poster, please ignore.

In either case, good luck.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
I did! I've read every single word of this entire thread, and I thought carefully about the whole situation before responding. It kind of hurts my feelings that you have responded to my ideas in such a snarky, dismissive manner.







I thought that since I have been where your daughter is now maybe my insights could be of some help. I wasn't trying to imply that you're not being compassionate at all, but the way I see it, there's always room for *more* compassion towards people.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post then too. They way I read it I didn't see any "more" compassion, just that I wasn't showing any. I apologise.

There are other things that have happened in our lives, particularly in the past 5 years, that would make more sense for her needing counseling. The only grief she feels about our past with her bio dad is that he doesn't care enough to look for her, but we discuss that part of it. She doesn't remember the fight. I'm not dismissing anything, on the contrary, I'm digging through my brain trying to find any reasons I hadn't thought of previously for this anger. Frankly, after her blow up last night, I'm _inclined_ to think she's just a selfish person and just throws a fit when she doesn't get what she wants, figuring I'll give in eventually. Not that I think that, but it's crossed my mind.

I think I've taken what I can from this thread, I really appreciate the advice and insight and other views I've gotten. I'll be working hard this week to find something she can get started on that will resolve her issues and quit this destructive behavior.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magster* 
Maybe I remember this wrong (i.e it happened to the DD of another poster, not the OP), but wasn't it your daughter who last year went to live in another state with friends of yours and the husband in that household was arrested while in company of your DD and there was a CPS inqueiry before you got her back home?

If so, that incident alone would warrant tons of counseling, I think. If I confuse you woth another poster, please ignore.

In either case, good luck.









Yes it was me, and no, she doesn't need counseling for it. She spoke to a couple people and other then being bewildered that police officers can be that stupid, she's fine. She was a lot worse before she went to live with them and been much better since she came back. I can't give any details to "prove" because the case is still open and lawsuits being filed, but trust me that it is NOT an issue for her. CPS never did get involved. They called and were only that involved because they wanted to make sure we weren't imaginary people and she did actually go home.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I'm digging through my brain trying to find any reasons I hadn't thought of previously for this anger.

I don't think you need to be able to identify the source of the anger, and I don't think your daughter does either, to benefit from counseling.

If you ask my daughter why she is so angry, I doubt that she would say, "Because I have HIV and my parents died and I got sent to an orphanage and my siblings are all together but I am not with them ...", and I don't think she would even know that those things make her angry. I think that's where a counselor can come in handy ... helping kids to identify and label their feelings, ones they don't understand or recognize.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
I don't think you need to be able to identify the source of the anger, and I don't think your daughter does either, to benefit from counseling.

If you ask my daughter why she is so angry, I doubt that she would say, "Because I have HIV and my parents died and I got sent to an orphanage and my siblings are all together but I am not with them ...", and I don't think she would even know that those things make her angry. I think that's where a counselor can come in handy ... helping kids to identify and label their feelings, ones they don't understand or recognize.

I think this is a very good point. The anger is there, whatever the cause, and your daughter obviously needs help in identifying it and addressing it in appropriate ways. She isn't able to do this on her own, and since it's not working with you, that's the time to find someone who could help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
Yes it was me, and no, she doesn't need counseling for it. She spoke to a couple people and other then being bewildered that police officers can be that stupid, she's fine.

Sorry to be argumentative, but she's not fine. If she was fine, you wouldn't be posting that you wanted to bang your head into a wall. She's flying into rages out of the blue that result in aggression and violence. And I think that it's rather presumptive of you to decide that she doesn't need counseling for it.

It's likely that her anger isn't resulting from one of these specific situations, but from a buildup of emotional reactions to a variety of situations that she is not yet mature enough to identify and deal with.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
I think this is a very good point. The anger is there, whatever the cause, and your daughter obviously needs help in identifying it and addressing it in appropriate ways. She isn't able to do this on her own, and since it's not working with you, that's the time to find someone who could help.

Sorry to be argumentative, but she's not fine. If she was fine, you wouldn't be posting that you wanted to bang your head into a wall. She's flying into rages out of the blue that result in aggression and violence. And I think that it's rather presumptive of you to decide that she doesn't need counseling for it.

It's likely that her anger isn't resulting from one of these specific situations, but from a buildup of emotional reactions to a variety of situations that she is not yet mature enough to identify and deal with.

The counselors she spoke to right after she came home said she didn't need any counseling for it. When I said she's fine, I meant to type, she's not been negatively effected by that. That's why I never brought it up in this thread until another poster mentioned it. It doesn't apply here.

Her anger I'm sure does stem from a build of of various things, but what I think, assume, or dismiss as being or not being the problem doesn't matter. I don't tell her I think those things and what I think doesn't stop me from seeking help for her. I apologize, I got too open with details in this thread, and too open without properly explaining some things, I often unable to type out what I'm trying to say, what I'm thinking. My being presumptuous or not doesn't matter as I'm getting her help as soon as I can find it.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
The counselors she spoke to right after she came home said she didn't need any counseling for it. When I said she's fine, I meant to type, she's not been negatively effected by that. That's why I never brought it up in this thread until another poster mentioned it. It doesn't apply here.

Her anger I'm sure does stem from a build of of various things, but what I think, assume, or dismiss as being or not being the problem doesn't matter. I don't tell her I think those things and what I think doesn't stop me from seeking help for her. I apologize, I got too open with details in this thread, and too open without properly explaining some things, I often unable to type out what I'm trying to say, what I'm thinking. My being presumptuous or not doesn't matter as I'm getting her help as soon as I can find it.

I totally understand not being able to type what you are thinking. I think we all struggle with that. And of course in this type of situation, it's never possible to include all of the details in the first, or even subsequent posts. That's one of the problems with internet discussions - that people respond to what you say before you've said it all. And of course since it's not in real time, it often takes a while for clarification on both sides.

I think it's wonderful that you have come here to get suggestions and just air what is going on. Certainly you acknowledge that she's not fine or you wouldn't be posting. I know you that, I just wanted to state it clearly. And you've already said that you are going to try to get her help, whatever is going on with her. My point is simply that you can't say what is or isn't contributing to her emotional issues. The counselor might not even be able to get to them. But I think it's a mistake to dismiss incidents like the ones discussed, even if it seems like they aren't affecting her. My mother made a lot of assumptions about what I was feeling, and why, but most of them were wrong. I don't blame her for making them - she had to try to find a reason.

Even in counseling, the root of her issues may not come to light. But if the counselor is good, he/she should be able to give her tools to deal with how she is feeling in a more productive way, even if the source of them is not dealt with until she is older.

I was in therapy as a 17 yo for a variety of depression/anger issues. I had the urge to do some of the things your daughter does, but I controlled it. Instead of smashing the wall, I threw socks, or turned up my music really loud. So it didn't seem as urgent to my mother, as it does to you. The therapy really helped, mostly I think, because the personality of the therapist really went well with mine, and I was able to listen to her thoughts and suggestions with a totally open mind, even if they weren't always right. I think I avoided getting into serious self-destructive behavior because of it. (I engaged in some, but not too much.)

However, the therapist never found out what the cause of my issues were because I didn't even understand them myself. Now I happened to be raised in a cult which caused a huge variety of issues as the cult was misogynistic, brainwashy (in a always-be-happy, don't discuss anything negative way) very controlling, secretive, homophobic, etc. And I didn't realize that most of the problems with my mother (which is what started the counseling) were reflections of what the cult had done to her, and to me. It was only about 6 years ago that I was able to address those issues with myself and with my mother.

Certainly your life is different than this. But my point is just that even if you can't figure out what is going on with her, therapy can still really help. I am eternally thankful for the time I had with my therapist, even though it was so many years later that I "solved" the issues.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

You either do not see the need for, or are unwilling to arrange counselling at the moment - no flames from me - you ARE the mother.

First off, I would remove the computer (which, yes, you did mention - I am merely seconding the fact I think it is a good idea). Both blow-ups in this thread seemed centerred around computer use.
Not only do I suggest it as a natural consequence to her behaviour, but some children cannot handle "screens" well - I need to look it up but I think excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .

Without question, she is angry and trying to get your attention over something. She has aimed her anger, twice, at things she know will really upset you. She did not aim her anger at the beloved computer or her stuff, after all.

Is it possible she has allergies or something medical that is upsetting her already sensitive balance? Do you think a visit to a naturopath or homeopath is in order - we gave my cranky nephew (not the same thing, I know!!) pulsatilla and he cheered right up. Naturopathy and Homeopathy do treat the whole person.

Is there anything she wants to take that will help her feel self-empowered, give her a break from the house, and re-direct her energy? I am thinking martial arts - but art, horseback riding, ect...whatever.....

Give her a beautiful jornal to write down her thoughts - journalling helps many people.

Hugs and more hugs....

Keep us posted!

Kathy


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## Susie1 (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .Kathy


I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I have been following this with interest, but hadn't thought of anything I could really contribute.

The comments above about not necessarily needing to identify the source of the anger are right on point, though. You may want to look for a counsellor with a "cognitive" perspective - their focus as I understand it is more on identifying and dealing with whatever one's triggers are in the moment, learning to react differently to triggers, and shifting behaviors: not so key to dig up and re-hash this or that thing in the past, more about changing patterns in the present. That might appeal to both you and your daughter.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susie1* 
I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.

Maybe what she is referring to is the fact that screen time is time not spent being active and engaged directly with other humans. In moderation it's fine, but if excessive it can be harmful. I know that in ADD literature it is advised to cut down on screen time and increase social engagement as a way to mitigate the downsides of ADD.

But Synthea hasn't said that her dd uses the computer excessively, so that may not apply. More to the point is the idea of using the computer to motivate a child who is apparently not intrinsically motivated to change her behavior. Of course intrinsic motivation is best and should be encouraged with lots of bonding and loving conversations about feelings and values etc. But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all.

Synthea's dd may just need a parental push to get her over this hurdle, either because she doesn't believe she really can control her temper or because she doesn't have the motivation to. Once she has passed the hurdle and seen how much smoother and happier life is without the drama of meltdowns, the hope is that this experience will become the intrinsic motivation for her to continue controlling her temper in the future.


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susie1* 
I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.


Computer "priveleges" is the key word here. If she is not able to have computer time without getting angry when that is over then I would have to worry whether the computer is messing up her head. My friends boy would get so revved playing online that the day would be hell for her. She restricted him and he is fine. Also what is she doing on the computer that makes her furious to have to finish?


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## Muaile (Sep 26, 2006)

"But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all." - THAO

HEAR HEAR!


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
*(please don't offer any advice unless you read and understand the whole post. I use sarcasm a lot and I'm very upset right now)

Added: please read through all my posts if you are giving advice, some responses are making is kinda obvious that didn't happen.
*
...is what I really want to do, just to stop myself from strangling DD. She's got this thing for kicking holes in walls. We had fixed all the holes in our old house and talked to her, and she's been good for a couple months. Today, she got sent to her room, politely because DH and I were arguing (so she wouldn't be right there and it was a nice, "honey, can you go read in your room for a bit", kind of thing), but she wanted to play on the computer right then, so she was mad. There is now a 3 FOOT by 1 FOOT hole in her bedroom wall. I've HAD IT. She doesn't need counseling, she doesn't need a talking to. I'm to the point I think she needs a good butt kicking, but that wouldn't do any good either! I can't think of anything to get her to stop, so I punished her - no more WoW (world of warcraft) ever - period. What good will it do? Nothing of course! Because she doesn't care! ARRRGHHHHH. How do you get a child to care when they don't. The only thing that makes her do good is bribes - allowance, treats, etc. She doesn't care about her brothers, or DH or I, she doesn't care if we need her to help or just want her around (like to go on a walk or watch a movie, even if she gets to run the show), unless she's getting something out of it. She only spontaniously gives a hug if she wants something, she only picks up her room to get out of trouble, or get computer time, she only hugs her brothers if I'm watching and she thinks she'll get "points". I'm just sick of it. We haven't raised her this way. I know too many kids who are like this and I've deliberately tried to raise her not to be so selfish and uncaring, but I failed







Its all her, her, her.







What can I do, besides counseling, because we don't have the money or insurance anyway for it, even if I was willing to try.

Please read the disclaimer at the beginning of the post before you reply, if you do. And please understand that I posted such a disclaimer because I way too often see posts where it is obvious that the poster did not read the whole original post, not because I'm being a bitch.

I would like to know if anything has worked. My dd doesnt' care about anything. she throws trash, books, clothes, whatever on the floor, doesn't take care of anything, cd players get stepped on, cds get scratched and broken, all of her clothes have stains, and I have finally washed my hands of her room. From now on I just shut the door, because I shouldn't have to keep pointing out each individual piece of trash, clothing or paper on her floor.

She isn't openly hostile, but rather she tells us what we want to hear then goes right on doing what she was doing before. She is sullen, argumentative, and dishonest. She doesn't throw things or break things in anger, but there is this overall feeling that she thinks she should be in charge and we all work for her.

I'm at my wit's end. One kid does well in school and rarely has trouble understanding what is expected of him. The other does poorly despite extra attention and extra classes, and can't seem to grasp the simplest of ideas.
I keep reading on ADD, but she's not hyper at all.

I am intrigued by your question about just not caring, because that is the one I'm struggling with.

Please tell me if you've made any progress.

8(


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Cutting the computer time down to 2-30 minute sessions a day has helped immensely. Threating to hang her in the garage by the foot she kicks the wall with helped one time too







She knew I was kidding and we both laughed and it dissolved the anger so she could talk....sometimes things like that work, sometimes not. Nothing bad since she threw the chair. I've been constantly talked to her about treating people and things how she wants to be treated ("how'd you like it if the wall kicked back?") and that gets mostly rolled eyes but I think it makes her think too. She destroys her room too, her stuff, and she's thrown out at least half of what was left from her last huge wing ding (it's been a while)....she doens't get to keep or replace what she destroys. I can't buy her new clothes, and she sure can't afford it, so if she destroys her clothes, she's going to eventually be going around naked.

Not much help I think, if I think of anything else I'll post again. I hope you and your teen can work things out.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

if only she was a teen! She's 9, but early puberty runs in her family and she acts like a 13 year old without the minor leaps in maturity or intellect.









I think it's harder for me to deal with because she is so much a little girl, but she's got hormonal issues and her emotions and physical self do not match her mental capacity.

it's good to know something is working with your teen. I think the most important thing I have to do is try not to get mad, stay calm and reasonable. Easier said than done, though.
8)


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I think it sounds like huge changes have happened.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
After tonight, I'm definitely getting her into SOMETHING. In the time it took to blink, she went from fine to stomping, yelling and throwing a chair into my (the landlord's brand new) oven, almost breaking the glass. This one's entirely on her, I gave her a 30 minute, a 15 minute, and a 5 minute heads up that computer time was about over, then I told her to finish up that thing she was doing right then (read: she had time, and knew she did, to finish up, save her program and close any other windows she had going) and get off, get a snack, and get some reading done. All said just pleasantly, like 2 hours ago, I told her it was time to unload the dishwasher and she did it just fine. She just completely freaked out. I AM GOING NUTS WITH THIS GIRL. ARGGHHH! Gotta find something that'll help her/us, I just want to strangle her (you know, like Homer does to Bart...) Sigh. And we've been working so hard since I last posted. It seems to be getting worse.











Get her into counseling.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I think we'll limit the computer to (home)school work only. Don't worry, I won't strangle her, but I sure wanted to.

Would she be happier in a public school?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Synthea, you seem to have decided that 1) because your daughter was only three when she witnessed the abuse and 2) because she's already been to counseling, the issue is closed and she's left it behind.

I think that's a very shortsighted way of looking at it.

Anger and trauma can re-emerge at many stages of life.

It's clear from your daughter's behavior that *something* is going on with her, and I honestly don't think it's for you to decide that it couldn't possibly be the abuse she witnessed as a young child. Maybe you are right and that's not it, but I think it bears some investigating.

I could very easily say that things that happened to my daughter as a young child no longer affect her, but her behavior says otherwise.









:


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

It's way too early to tell, I'll know in a month or 2, but the computer (and specifically WoW) seems to be the problem. She's been more active with her schooling, and "real life" and she's happier, just since the chair throwing. I'm still looking for options (so far, there's nothing we can afford - $50-100/hour until DH's insurance kicks in they're unwilling to take payments, one office told me to get a credit card even














, but I'm starting to think the computer, and WoW, is something she just can't handle. Don't ask me why, but I imagine she gets so wrapped up in the alternate reality that when real life comes crashing in, even with warnings, she can't handle it. Thinking about it, DH is the same way. He's a grumpy PITA if I pull him away from WoW without "proper" warning. I didn't think about it before, because he's not destructive. And he recognizes he's being a jerk so it only lasts a minute.

I think things are going to just keep improving


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## beccaboomom (May 22, 2005)

Quote:

Don't ask me why, but I imagine she gets so wrapped up in the alternate reality that when real life comes crashing in, even with warnings, she can't handle it.
You need to quit making excuses for her behaviour and deal with this as a discipline issue. I witnessed my mother being knocked around by my father and I've yet to break anything in anger.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beccaboomom* 
You need to quit making excuses for her behaviour and deal with this as a discipline issue.

The girl needs counseling, not necessarily discipline.

Are there other times she blows up, that aren't computer related?


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
The girl needs counseling, not necessarily discipline.

Are there other times she blows up, that aren't computer related?

She's been disciplined. Lost allowance (paying for the damage) and lost computer time, for a few days after the damage was done, and continuous, from hours and hours a day to an hour or less each day. I'd probably rather not know how you think I need to discipline her bbm.

I'm hard pressed to remember an explosion that does not have the computer involved. I can recall, especially during PMS and during her periods, some stomping and maybe a slammed door, but never any damage done. Hmm.


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## beccaboomom (May 22, 2005)

Quote:

I'm hard pressed to remember an explosion that does not have the computer involved.
If this is the case, then NO computer if she can't be reasonable about it. My oldest broke our rules we have set for computer use and I took it away for a month. Computer is a priviledge not a necessity.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I've been following your thread and didn't think I had anything to say but just today I was talking to my ds2 about why I want him to turn off the speakers when he is on a WoW type game online. The music makes me feel down and anxious after only about 5 minutes.

I heard a programme on the radio the other day talking about the rhythm and tone of gansta rap and the reasoing from a musical perspective that it is this, not the lyrics which can make the listener feel agressive. I definitely feel differently depending on what I am hearing and I see how this affects my children too.

If we need a lift and a good laugh in this house we watch these http://www.devilducky.com/media/7452/ or


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## momazon4 (Dec 19, 2006)

This is just a thought I thought I would throw out. I had to get rid of tv because ds would become agressive after watching it. That was the only time. It could be the nicest show but he would become agressive. My friend has done some reading on how tv, computer, video games, ect. affect brainwaves. Basically, you have all this energy going in with no output and then POOF. They need to get rid of it somehow! I would defineately avoid computer.

Hoping it all works out well for you, mama.

Teri


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## mamabear3 (May 6, 2006)

Just to preface, I did read all our your original posts and most of the response, but not all!









We have been experiencing all most all of what you have described with our ds (13). Here is what we have done...

Years of counselling, which helps some, but to be honest, only ever seems to be a short term fix. I think we are finally making some headway. His bio mother left him and dh when he was about 2 yrs old. According to several people, this has caused him to be "stuck" at that age emotionally. It is a form of trauma. Maybe the situation with your dd at age 3?

We were told to look at him as though he were a 2 yr old instead of 13... and wow! He acts just like our 2 yr old!









So, the answer was how do we get him past it. We have been doing EMDR (you can google it) during counselling sessions. It simulates REM sleep and helps people to process thru trauma more quickly.

We also started him on Fish oil and b vitamins, plus cut out dairy and gluten completely. It has helped alot with his impulse control and his associated stomach issues.

Lastly, and in my opinion, the most drastic, we took him to a homeopath. Her assessment of him was almost exactly the same as our counsellors... no impulse control, emotionally thinks like a 2 yr old, egocentric, prone to violence, attention defficit, and possible depression accompanied by mania.
She gave him a remedy and within two-three days he was a different kid. So far it has been a month and we have gone from 1-2 outbursts like you describe a DAY to ONE the entire month. FWIW, we have been dealing with these for YEARS. I can not tell you how great it is.

So, please do not think it is you, or your home, or anything else. We were told by people that we needed more structure, less structure, to put him in public school, get him in sports, take away the computer and TV (which we did do, but it didn't solve the problem~ It's still not back, but only because it is so much nicer







) medicate him, you name it. We went with what we felt was best for our son and our family. All the suggestions in the world don't make any difference if it isn't what you feel is best for her.

Good luck, and I feel your pain! Hang in there. We aren't through it yet, but there a light starting to peek thru.


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## CowsRock (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I keep reading on ADD, but she's not hyper at all.
(

*OT*, just a quick note to say that ADD in girls can often (mostly?) manifest as a daydreamer who is lost in their own world and has trouble relating to the outside world. I still struggle with this, but as I grew up I figured out ways to cope. I wouldn't automatically dismiss ADD for your daughter without reading about ADD specific to girls.

*Back on topic of OP*, I have no advice, but wanted to tell you that I had rage issues when I was an early teen. I put a few holes in walls and I broke some chairs. I would get so angry but have no clue how to express that anger. My mom also didn't know how to express her anger and her way of coping was to try to walk away from the situation which only infuriated me further because I felt I was being abandoned. In the situation I wanted to stop but couldn't, but once I broke something or screamed the anger was shocked out of me. The reason I'm sharing this is because my mom raised my brother and I the exact same way. He did not have this problem, only I did. I wonder if a change to my diet and if vits and herbs could have helped me, but since that wasn't in my mom's realm of knowledge I'll never know. That is why I say I don't have advice...we just rode it out. I do know that counseling probably would have helped because I became desperate for counseling after high school, but my mom didn't understand its importance and I couldn't pay for it on my own. When I finally got counseling I started to realize how nasty I was to myself in my internal dialogue, and how I would take things to heart but never talk about them to my parents. So my parents thought all was basically well and I did too, and they could have been so helpful with dismissing the crazy teen thoughts that come up. But I internalized them all and my self-esteem outside of my family crashed more and more each year. Inside my family I could let it all out...unfortunately that also included all the anger that couldn't be let out anywhere else, because I didn't know how to express it without feeling like I was laid completely open...vulnerable. The point is I wish you weren't saying things like you have failed. Hopefully the two of you will figure out a way to help her get through this time, but you haven't failed. Failing would be giving up on her and saying she has it good and should be happy so I give up. You are searching for things that will help her learn to express herself and control herself...that isn't giving up. And no matter how terrified I was about how out of control I felt, I would never, ever admit that to my parents...she may very well be terrified of herself in those moments and never give a sign of that or admit it...but it will be great if you can remember that. Knowing after it all calmed down that my mom still loved me was crucial, but I'm pretty sure I acted like I didn't care. When she would walk out of the room during an argument I truly felt like she would walk out the door and never come back and I don't have any abandonment situations in my childhood, there was absolutely no basis for those feelings, but they were real and they were intense feelings.

Hopefully this isn't too scattered, I really didn't have time to post this morning and have to run....sorry, if some of it doesn't make much sense!

I wanted to add that we were/are a very close family. We had lots of family time and did lots of stuff together and I also had my own space. My family was very attentive and supportive...yet, my mom was still the easiest and safest place for me to unload all my anger.


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