# Safety while breastfeeding and riding in the car?



## MaryJaneLouise

I have seen many people talk about how they can breastfeed a child, while the child is in a car seat, and the mom is "safely buckled in" to their own seat and riding (not driving) in the car (presumably in the back seat next to the child).

I have a hard time picturing how this can be safe. I thought maybe people who hang around in this forum might have an informed opinion, or access to an expert opinion on this subject.

Is this possible? If so, would you please provide specific instructions for how it might be done?


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## fujiyama_mama

No idea. We just park the car and take them out of thier seats!


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## Smalls181

On long car rides to the in-laws (4.5 hours with no stops) we had initially just stopped to nurse. That worked for a few months, and then what would happen is that as soon as she got out of her seat, she didn't want to nurse anymore. She just wanted to play. So back in the seat and resume screaming. We weren't going to do the "leaning over the seat and nurse" thing, but we didn't know what else could be done. Stopping didnt work. Continuing to drive while she screamed was not an option. Forward facing didn't help either, nor did we like doing that... So, this is what we did. I sat on my feet with the lap belt on. For us, it was the lesser of all evils.


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## hottmama

It's not safe-- you'd crush your baby in a wreck.
That said, I've been guilty of it before. I've also pumped in the car on long trips and given the baby a bottle or sippy of EBM. And I've also stopped to nurse.
After 6 mos. I'm a big fan of water and snacks for the car.


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## alysmommy2004

It's not safe, but I've done it too. heck, the seat I have to sit in it to do it has the most ridiculous seat belt that my long torsos, 5'7" isn't even tall enough to sit there without getting tangled in the darn seatbelt (sorry, I'm mad at my seatbelt atm).


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## YesandNo

It seems to defeat the purpose of the carseat to me, to put the weight of your chest/torso directly in front of the child's head while the car is in motion. Definitely would not do it.


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## Ruthla

I did this with my first baby- I didn't have shoulder belts in the back, so I'd have my lap belt on and bend over the infant carseat while she was strapped in.

I didn't do it with my 2nd baby because the back seat was too crowded with 2 carseats, and in any case it wasn't needed because she had her sister to entertain and distract her while we drove anywhere.

By the time DS was born, I learned how dangerous this was. The carseat is designed to protect 22 lbs or so of baby in a collision- not 22 lbs of baby plus 175 lbs of mama!

It's far safer to pump in the car and then give the baby a bottle or sippy cup of pumped milk- the bottle is a LOT lighter than mama!

Smalls- did you try stopping the car, keeping baby in the carseat and nursing her without taking her out of the seat, but while the car was *not* in motion?


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## snitker79

I tried to do this once on a long road trip and it absolutely didn't work, even with me taking my seat belt off to do it, which I know wasn't safe. I was also guilty of nursing her in the back while dh continued to drive.

He's a bit of a nut when it comes to wanting to get where he's going with minimal stops. With the next one, this will not be happening.


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## ThreeBeans

It's NOT safe...for the mom or the baby.


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## roxyrox

What we used to do was have me in the back seat, strapped in and then put baby in a ring sling to nurse. So baby is actually strapped pretty tight. This arrangement averted many accidents for us as DH is not a good driver with crying babies!! If you have large boobs (I don't!), then nursing in the carseat may work - I tried it and had about a foot left between my boob and babies mouth though! If you have larger boobs than AA cup, you may have more success


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
What we used to do was have me in the back seat, strapped in and then put baby in a ring sling to nurse. So baby is actually strapped pretty tight. This arrangement averted many accidents for us as DH is not a good driver with crying babies!! If you have large boobs (I don't!), then nursing in the carseat may work - I tried it and had about a foot left between my boob and babies mouth though! If you have larger boobs than AA cup, you may have more success









OMG, please NEVER, EVER, EVER do that again.

In an accident your baby would be your airbag. You would kill your baby.


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## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
OMG, please NEVER, EVER, EVER do that again.

In an accident your baby would be your airbag. You would kill your baby.









Oh for gd sake! An airbag would be coming from the _opposite_ direction. If I am strapped in, and baby is strapped in _over_ my seat belt, in the back seat, it is not remotely like an airbag.

I can assure you, my baby was a lot safer like that than screaming in his carseat (physically _and_ emotionally)


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## ThreeBeans

No, you are not understanding. The baby would BE your airbag. As your body mass was thrown forward, your baby would be pinned between your chest and whatever else was there (the seat in front of you, your lap, etc).

Let's say you're a 120 pound woman and you were in a 30 mph crash. That would be THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED pounds of force on your baby should there be an impact.

Your baby was not safer than in a car seat. Your baby would have been killed in a low speed impact (and you would probably have been criminally charged).


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## dawn1221

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
What we used to do was have me in the back seat, strapped in and then put baby in a ring sling to nurse. So baby is actually strapped pretty tight. This arrangement averted many accidents for us as DH is not a good driver with crying babies!! If you have large boobs (I don't!), then nursing in the carseat may work - I tried it and had about a foot left between my boob and babies mouth though! If you have larger boobs than AA cup, you may have more success









I would never ever recommend anyone do this! There is never ever an instance when this action would be acceptable.

You can always pull over if it is really necessary to feed your baby on a road trip.

Have you seen crash test videos?


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## jmmom

I agree that baby should never, ever be removed from car seat while in car. I also see that my not wearing a shoulder strap, which I can't do while nursing, is not as safe as wearing it. But if I am buckled in, and leaning forward slightly so that baby can (just barely, mind you) reach my breast, I really fail to see how the baby's carseat is in any way whatsoever supporting my weight. In an accident I would be yanked back to my seat because of the seatbelt I am wearing. Am I missing something?


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmmom* 
I agree that baby should never, ever be removed from car seat while in car. I also see that my not wearing a shoulder strap, which I can't do while nursing, is not as safe as wearing it. But if I am buckled in, and leaning forward slightly so that baby can (just barely, mind you) reach my breast, I really fail to see how the baby's carseat is in any way whatsoever supporting my weight. In an accident I would be yanked back to my seat because of the seatbelt I am wearing. Am I missing something?

Sure









I'm sure you've read about how maturity is important for booster users, that they need to know to sit properly and upright. The reason for this is, the belt is desinged to function at a particular place on the shoulder and chest and the lap belt is designed to rest low on the pelvis or the thighs. Wiggling around or shifting dramatically alters what will happen to your body in a crash.

It could be as minor as some nasty bruises and whiplash, or it could be as severe as a spinal injury or internal abdominal hemmorhage.

Also, very few rear seat belts actually 'retract' when they lock in an emergency situation. They just lock where they happen to be. If you're leaning out of position, that's *that* much more slack that will allow you to whip around like a rag doll or even be ejected from your belt.


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## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
No, you are not understanding. The baby would BE your airbag. As your body mass was thrown forward, your baby would be pinned between your chest and whatever else was there (the seat in front of you, your lap, etc).

Let's say you're a 120 pound woman and you were in a 30 mph crash. That would be THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED pounds of force on your baby should there be an impact.

Your baby was not safer than in a car seat. Your baby would have been killed in a low speed impact (and you would probably have been criminally charged).

No,it wouldn't be like that though - I was strapped in, therefore my seatbelt would take the impact of the crash - then as ds was strapped to me _over_ the seatbelt, he would be pulled back as well _after_ me. He would be thrown forward at exactly the same rate as me in the event of a crash. I have had a carseat tech here, and a fireman at a car seat day tell me this is ok, so I am not too worried, but thank you for your concern. We are in different countries so I can undersatand you have a different view. I think Americans have different ideas of safety than Europeans, maybe we have something to learn off you. I am intrigued by RF till toddler age -I think with my next child, I will buy a US carseat. You can't RF past one here.


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## ThreeBeans

Roxy, it would be like that. We have dozens and dozens of crash tests that illustrate it.

I don't know WHO told you it was safe, but it definitely was not a technician.

I can't tell you how much I'm trying to emphasize, this is DEADLY. This isn't an iffy situation. This isn't "put my 40 pound 4 year old in a harnessed seat or put him in a booster". This isn't, "Should I put my 30 pound 2 year old rear facing or forward facing." It isn't even "Can I put my boostered 10 year old in the front seat?"

It's...in an accident, that would kill your baby. Not injure. Not bruise a little. Kill your baby. And it would be your body that would do it.

It isn't worth it, is it?


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## lyttlewon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Sure









I'm sure you've read about how maturity is important for booster users, that they need to know to sit properly and upright. The reason for this is, the belt is desinged to function at a particular place on the shoulder and chest and the lap belt is designed to rest low on the pelvis or the thighs. Wiggling around or shifting dramatically alters what will happen to your body in a crash.

It could be as minor as some nasty bruises and whiplash, or it could be as severe as a spinal injury or internal abdominal hemmorhage.

Also, very few rear seat belts actually 'retract' when they lock in an emergency situation. They just lock where they happen to be. If you're leaning out of position, that's *that* much more slack that will allow you to whip around like a rag doll or even be ejected from your belt.

My back seat has a shoulder belt and I can nurse DS without leaning much. I guess my question is how is that different than a person who is say leaning on the arm rest in the front passenger seat? I don't know many adults who actually sit in one place in their seat the entire drive.


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lyttlewon* 
My back seat has a shoulder belt and I can nurse DS without leaning much. I guess my question is how is that different than a person who is say leaning on the arm rest in the front passenger seat? I don't know many adults who actually sit in one place in their seat the entire drive.

Well, you don't need to sit without budging, but for optimal safety, you should be upright, with your tush and back as far back in the seat as you can go and your feet planted on the floor.

The two things that you should pay most attention to are making sure the lap belt as drawn tightly under your belly, across your pelvis, and that the shoulder belt rests snugly between your neck and shoulder and crosses your chest in the center, without sliding off your shoulder or coming up against your throat.


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## wendy1221

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Roxy, it would be like that. We have dozens and dozens of crash tests that illustrate it.

I don't know WHO told you it was safe, but it definitely was not a technician.

Do you have a link to any of those? I'm intrigued that they would actually do crash testing involving and infant strapped to an adult over the seatbelt.


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## ThreeBeans

Crash testing is done with dummies not with real people









I'm imagining the laboratory right now


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## ThreeBeans

I bet they could get college students to do it if they gave them enough beer. hmmmmm.

Here, you, Johnny, strap Mikey in this sling. Yeah, I know Mikey is 250 pounds and MVP for the foozball team. Quit whining.

Get in the sling. GET IN THE SLING. IT'S AN EXTRA-LARGE MAYA WRAP, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!

Ok, Johnny, to make this more realistic, you're going to have nurse Mikey. What? Oh, no, I promise this isn't a porno. Here, have another Bud lite.


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## Tofu the Geek

Pulling off the road is always scary to me too. Sometimes the only place you have is the shoulder of the road and I'd hate to stop, have baby unrestrained, and someone hits our stopped vehicle (and this does happen).

I even read a story about a man who had to pull off the road due to vehicle trouble, got his family to get out of the vehicle and move far away from it to keep them safe, the vehicle was hit and thrown INTO his family hundreds of feet away from the vehicle.

So, isn't the only safe option really to take your vehicle some place not on the road, get out of the vehicle and go nurse some place safe? (i.e. restaurant, store, etc.) and then what do you do then when your hours away from any safe haven and your only option is to pull off the highway and park on the teensy shoulder that isn't large enough for your vehicle (so your vehicle is partially in the ditch and partially still on the road)? This was my last situation. Oh, and I don't get even an ounce pumping so a bottle of expressed milk wasn't the answer.

I think we need someone to invent extend-a-breast.


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## MaryJaneLouise

I think when people say "pull over" they mean go to one a rest stop, or fast food / gas station parking lot. ITA that the shoulder of a highway can be very dangerous.


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## Tofu the Geek

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise* 
I think when people say "pull over" they mean go to one a rest stop, or fast food / gas station parking lot. ITA that the shoulder of a highway can be very dangerous.

I guess my point was that where I live, those things are often hours apart. We don't have interstates with rest stops here so often all you have is a lone highway with the next town 3 hours away that may or may not have an open gas station depending on what time of day you are travelling. A mom could easily be in the position of having to be on the side of the road unsafely or breastfeeding while leaning over her child. Neither are good options.







Off to design the extend-a-boob....


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## queenjane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Crash testing is done with dummies not with real people









I'm imagining the laboratory right now









I think she meant...since you said there were dozens of crash tests proving what *she* was doing (riding with baby strapped to her in a sling) was dangerous...have there actually been crash tests, with dummies, dummy babies, and slings? I think that would be unusual (for the testers to even think of slings, rather than the dummy parent merely holding the child).

That being said, i would never ever ride with a baby in a sling...omg.

It would never have occurred to me that nursing while in the seat was unsafe until reading about it, so i would be less likely to do that in the future. (I probably will not have any more nursing babies tho...)...some have suggested sippy cups and/or bottles....but havent some here also mentioned that one shouldnt have "loose" things in the car, baby mirrors, toys, etc? Is a parent holding a bottle (esp a heavy glass one, considering the BPA issues!







) right in front of a baby's face while travelling also dangerous? Wouldnt that be smashed into the child, possibly blinding them or worse? How is that different than say, a toy bar attached to the carseat or a mirror etc? Arent all of those potential projectiles in the event of an accident? Probably better than the weight of a parent, but still.....

My vote would be for pulling to a safe spot, and nursing, if possible. If not, then i guess you gotta weight the risks and make that choice.

Katherine


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## wendy1221

Yeah, I KNOW they use dummies. I'm not a moron. But you said there was crash test data for this specific situation, which I find very interesting, and possibly exagerated. References?


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## YesandNo

Quote:

I guess my point was that where I live, those things are often hours apart. We don't have interstates with rest stops here so often all you have is a lone highway with the next town 3 hours away that may or may not have an open gas station depending on what time of day you are travelling.
Well, there must not be many people on the road then right? So maybe the highway is (relatively) safe. I don't know, I live in Boston, the highways are PACKED here and in rush hour people are allowed to drive on the shoulder like it's a regular lane.

*roxyrox*, the fabric of a ringstring is not strong enough to (or designed to) withstand a crash the way a seat belt is. I would not be comfortable with your technique at all.

Quote:

Well, you don't need to sit without budging, but for optimal safety, you should be upright, with your tush and back as far back in the seat as you can go and your feet planted on the floor.
Exactly - my husband is an auto safety engineer, and whenever we have passengers in the car he uses the rearview mirror to make sure no one is slouching too much. He says "don't make me tell you about the videos they make us watch."


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## Tofu the Geek

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YesandNo* 
Well, there must not be many people on the road then right? So maybe the highway is (relatively) safe. I don't know, I live in Boston, the highways are PACKED here and in rush hour people are allowed to drive on the shoulder like it's a regular lane.

I was thinking highways, as in the road you travel to get from one city to another city many hours away, are you thinking the same? or do you mean freeways? I guess I don't know what your traffic is like there so maybe your highways (i.e. interstates) are that busy.


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## EviesMom

We don't drive much, but when we do they are long trips, and I think it was a revelation that it's not the stopping to nurse that takes forever, it's the transferring a sleeping babe back to the car seat. We park the car (at a rest area; I would never pull on the side of a highway to nurse), I get in back but don't take the baby out of the seat, and nurse him/her back to sleep while they're still strapped in. Then keep driving once baby's asleep and unlatched! Sometimes I stay in the back with baby, sometimes not. The car is parked, so there's no danger. It's not the way I prefer to nurse; and it's not good for my back; but it makes car trips bearable. I also think that with 2 kids, it gets a little easier. DS is very entertained by DD. Or it might just be his personality, IDK.

I can't imagine an interstate with exits hours apart... we go to vermont, and the exits are maybe 20 minutes apart, but honestly, if the babe started crying the minute we passed one exit, I'd try to comfort but otherwise he/she would have to cry for 20 minutes until we got to the next exit. I don't mind nursing in parking lots for closed stores; but I don't think I've ever been traveling at an hour when an exit had literally nothing open.


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 







Oh for gd sake! An airbag would be coming from the _opposite_ direction. If I am strapped in, and baby is strapped in _over_ my seat belt, in the back seat, it is not remotely like an airbag.

I can assure you, my baby was a lot safer like that than screaming in his carseat (physically _and_ emotionally)


I'm with you







I think there is too much extreme alarmism on this board regarding car seats. It's all about weighing risks vs. benefits.


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
Yeah, I KNOW they use dummies. I'm not a moron. But you said there was crash test data for this specific situation, which I find very interesting, and possibly exagerated. References?

Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood you







I wasn't trying to make fun of you, I know you aren't stupid









No, what I was saying is that we have dozens of crash tests showing various scenarios for unrestrained people in a crash. I know there is a video out there showing what happens if a baby is secured to the mom and it was pretty horrifying. I didn't save the link because honestly I never thought I'd have to tell someone it wasn't a good idea







I'm sure one of the other techs has it though


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I'm with you







I think there is too much extreme alarmism on this board regarding car seats. It's all about weighing risks vs. benefits.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH.

Don't confuse alarmism with common sense.

This stuff is the reason we have to have car seat laws at all


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## an_aurora

ITA. It's not being alarmists, it's trying to keep kids safe from people who don't understand or care about the danger involved.

My DH lost a cousin when his aunt took her out of her infant seat and was holding her in a Snugli nursing her. They were hit by a drunk driver and the newborn was ejected. Just because there isn't a crash test video showing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in real life!


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## wendy1221

I totally agree it's not being alarmist. I do have a very close friend who DOES, and I just don't discuss car safety with her anymore. She DID have her kids in very good seats (I recently bought her used Regent for my ds2.) but she doesn't have a problem with her kids getting unbuckled to reach something, or having them ride in the front, seat, etc. I personally am not really comfortable w/ that stuff, but it's her choice, you know?

As for travelling with a baby, highways always have emergency pullovers. Believe me, I use them all the time, and a cop has stopped to check more than once and every time told me it was perfectly OK to use the emergency pullovers to nurse my baby. It's MUCH safer than a regular shoulder, and it's definitely better than getting flustered trying to reach the next exit with a baby screaming. If a truck needs to use it, there's plenty of room. THere's usually enough room for 2-3 tractor trailers in a standard emergency pullover. And sometimes they even have picnic tables and trash cans.

It's also very easy to pump and give the baby a bottle if your baby takes one. I've done this before as well, and washed my pump parts in rest stop bathroom (with my own soap and towels.)

And I'll admit it, I have done the lean over with the boob trick, but I have enormous stretched out boobies. I don't have to actually lean over the car seat. I just have to turn a little sideways and bend over a bit and my 10 inch long boobs can reach.







I'm not really comfortable with it, but after being in the car for 12 hours or more, you get a little tired of pulling over every 20 min.


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## aja-belly

i was able to nurse marvel in her carseat (and did almost anytime we went anywhere for several months). i did not have a shoulder belt on - and i know it was not as safe for me. my boobs are pretty long though







and in her old carseat i could nurse her easily without leaning over her.

i would definately want her in a carseat if we got ion an accident and not in a ring sling. i also wouldn't want her in front of me to absorb the impact of my body. how horrifying.


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## Ironica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
Do you have a link to any of those? I'm intrigued that they would actually do crash testing involving and infant strapped to an adult over the seatbelt.

No link, but there are crash test videos showing what happens to an adult who is belted into the back seat. They often hit the front seat. It's not too difficult to imagine what would happen to a baby between the adult and the front seat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I'm with you







I think there is too much extreme alarmism on this board regarding car seats. It's all about weighing risks vs. benefits.

Replace "car seats" with "c-sections" and see how you feel about the sentence now. :-/ Women DIE from unnecessary surgery. Babies DIE from lack of proper restraint in an accident. That's not alarmism, that's truth.


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## Nicole_ac

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fujiyama_mama* 
No idea. We just park the car and take them out of thier seats!

Yes me too, it gives DD the opportunity to be out of the car seat for a while as well.


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## PassionateWriter

i nursed my son a few times (i can think of two times) when we were on long trips and i found it difficult to wait to be able to pull over safely (weather was bad, i didnt feel good pulling to the shoulder in a white out basically).

it was not safe. it was either do that or listen to him upset (and yes, i did nurse before we left but most of the time he fell asleep in the car seat..this was an exception). i chose to do what woudl lead us all to a more peaceful and less stressful ride..but it was certainly not safe.

its not alarmist to explain that certain practices are not safe. i dont get that train of thought here. we should all seek to do what is safest, right?


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## cognito

Just another point about the slings...

Say you have a 10lb baby in there & are in a 30mph crash, that would mean the sling would have to support 300lbs. I'm thinking with that much force the fabric could either pull loose from the rings or the rings could easily bend/break. Baby would also fly forward & hit the back of the front seat. That would promptly be followed by the adult smooshing the baby. Just typing that out made me nauseated.

I can't see how this can be seen as alarmist when really common sense should win out. Car safety isn't based on opinion. It is based on the laws of physics.


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## Trillian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Let's say you're a 120 pound woman and you were in a 30 mph crash. That would be THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED pounds of force on your baby should there be an impact.

This doesn't make sense. The units don't work: pounds (mass) x mph does not equal pounds (force).

In order to calculate the force of impact on the baby you need the acceleration of the vehicle. If you go from 30 mph to 0 slowly, there is very little force; hit a wall, and there will be a very large force. You can calculate force = mass x acceleration, where the appropriate units would be newtons = kg x m/s^2 or, in foot/pound units, force-lbs = slugs x ft/s^2 (where a slug is unit of mass defined as 1 force-lb s^2/ft).

/end physics lecture

In any case, the point was a good one. Leaning over the baby in a moving vehicle is dangerous.


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## Trillian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cognito* 
Say you have a 10lb baby in there & are in a 30mph crash, that would mean the sling would have to support 300lbs.

Also not correct, see my post above.


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## an_aurora

Yes, she was correct. That is how you calculate the pounds of force being exerted on the car seat, or in this case the ring sling. She was absolutely correct: 10 lbs of baby in a 30 mph crash= 300 pounds being exerted.


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## paquerette

The car that we had when DD was little was a '78 caprice. Shoulder belts? Hahahaha. So yeah, I could sit forward a little, flop an extra-sized boob over the side, and everyone was happy. I'm not sure whether that is actually less safe for me since shoulder belt was not an option anyway and either way I was slamming face-first into the seat in front of me, yk? Also not sure how much the boob weighed. More than a bottle I'm sure, but less than a whole human being leaning over her. Not an option this time anyway, with two kids in a Jeep, so I don't need to think about it. Guess I'm just sitting home.


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## Trillian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Yes, she was correct. That is how you calculate the pounds of force being exerted on the car seat, or in this case the ring sling. She was absolutely correct: 10 lbs of baby in a 30 mph crash= 300 pounds being exerted.

No, I'm sorry, but this is _wrong_. You cannot multiply pounds x speed and get pounds. Does. Not. Compute. To calculate force you need mass times acceleration, in properly adjusted units.


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## an_aurora

Fine, I will go dig out my freakin manual to quote it to you.


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## Aliviasmom

My mom told me she did this with my brother. We (my parents, younger brother, and I) were all on a car trip. My brother was hungry, but my father would not (







) stop. So my mom sat on one side of the back seat, my brother in the middle, and me on the other side. She leaned over so he had access to the boob, while she stretched an arm over to play with me/keep me company (I'm 21 months older). This was in the mid 80s, so safety regulations weren't as strict/well known.

I, myself though, have never done it. Not saying I wouldn't if I needed to, but I haven't.


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH.

Don't confuse alarmism with common sense.

This stuff is the reason we have to have car seat laws at all









Thje same could be said for hospiptal birth, vaccines and circumsicion. I'm quite capable of weighing the risks vs the benefits for my situation. THere are times when the _potential_benefit of a car seat outweight the immediate risk to baby's emotional well being.

NAK (although not in a car at the moment)


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
No link, but there are crash test videos showing what happens to an adult who is belted into the back seat. They often hit the front seat. It's not too difficult to imagine what would happen to a baby between the adult and the front seat.

Replace "car seats" with "c-sections" and see how you feel about the sentence now. :-/ Women DIE from unnecessary surgery. Babies DIE from lack of proper restraint in an accident. That's not alarmism, that's truth.


Exactly - we all have to weigh the risk vs. benefit for our own situation. Babies die from homebirth, too. Babies die while in car seats and while walking down the street. THe sad fact of life is that babies die sometimes.


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i we should all seek to do what is safest, right?

absolutley! But for me, I take into accoutn my baby's emotional as well as physical well-being.


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## wendy1221

If your manual says that, it's wrong, too. I'm a scientist as well, and have taken physics up to quantum mechanics, so yeah, I'm decent at physics. Force=mass*acceleration, not mass*speed. More will be involved than just simply ma, though.

I found this: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...0047.Ph.r.html

ANd anyway, the baby would only be taking the impact of it's own weight*acceleration, not the force of the moms weight or anything else. The seatbelt would take the force of the mom's weight, while the sling would be the thing impacting the baby. THe sling may or may not be strong enough to handle the force of the impact, it depends on the strength of the fabric and the speed you were going befor impact. I doubt the baby would be ejected from a sling as easily as a snugli, but at the same time, there's probably less head support. Plus the sling fabric would usually be more flimsy and likely to tear or break, although the clips on a Snugli are pretty flimsy as well.


----------



## wendy1221

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
No link, but there are crash test videos showing what happens to an adult who is belted into the back seat. They often hit the front seat. It's not too difficult to imagine what would happen to a baby between the adult and the front seat.

Is that w/ a lap belt only or a shoulder belt as well? And is it their body or "just" their head?


----------



## BeckC

*Former mechanical engineer*

Trillian is right that Force does not equal weight times speed.

Force equals mass times acceleration. *Note - lbs is a weight not a mass*
Acceleration/deceleration in an accident equals the speed you're traveling divided by how long it takes you to stop.
Momentum equals mass times speed.

The weight of something is it's mass times the acceleration due to gravity. So weight is actually a force. (That's why people are lighter on the moon. The force due to gravity is different.)

Therefore, no, you cannot multiply force times speed and get force.

If you stop suddenly as in an accident your acceleration/deceleration will be very high. The faster you are going, the higher your negative acceleration.

In that respect, the techs have the right idea that force is proportional to both your weight and your speed. In other words, as a persons weight goes up, or as the speed you're travelling goes up, the force in an accident also goes up.

However, a 100 lb person in a 30 mph crash would not have a force of 3000 lbs.

ETA: After working it out a 100 lb person stopping from 30 mph to 0 in 0.2 seconds would have a force of about 684 lbs. That is a very basic conclusion though as there are many more systems and forces at play in an accident.

Edited again to add something about acceleration and also to add:

Regardless of exactly the force during an accident, I wouldn't be comfortable with any amount of weight hitting my baby in a car accident 1000 lbs or 10.


----------



## Trillian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
Force=mass*acceleration, not mass*speed, and the units are lbs per quare inch or whatever, not lbs.

Actually pounds is a valid unit of force, and can be converted to newtons (the SI unit). Pounds per square inch is a unit of pressure.


----------



## wendy1221

mass i sproportional weight on earth, though, so there's no reason to differentiate the 2 in these calculations. You can convert your "force" in lbs to your "mass" in kg, and still call your mass in kg your weight. It's just semantics, really.


----------



## wendy1221

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trillian* 
Actually pounds is a valid unit of force, and can be converted to newtons (the SI unit). Pounds per square inch is a unit of pressure.

RIght. I already edited my post b/c I realized that.


----------



## Trillian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
*Former mechanical engineer*

Trillian is right that Force does not equal weight times speed.

Force equals mass times acceleration. *Note - lbs is a weight not a mass*
Momentum equals mass times speed.

The weight of something is it's mass times the acceleration due to gravity. So weight is actually a force. (That's why people are lighter on the moon. The force due to gravity is different.)

Therefore, no, you cannot multiply force times speed and get force.

If you stop suddenly as in an accident your acceleration/deceleration will be very high. The faster you are going, the higher your negative acceleration.

In that respect, the techs have the right idea that force is proportional to both your weight and your speed. In other words, as a persons weight goes up, or as the speed you're travelling goes up, the force in an accident also goes up.

However, a 100 lb person in a 30 mph crash would not have a force of 3000 lbs.









Good explanation.


----------



## vbactivist

all of these calculation matter _only_ if you are in a collision. whaat are the percentages of collisions while driving defensively? If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only _might_ sustain physical harm.

use a carseat if you want - I usually do, but there are times when the benefits of holding my baby while in a moving vehicle outweigh the risks.


----------



## an_aurora

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
all of these calculation matter _only_ if you are in a collision. whaat are the percentages of collisions while driving defensively? If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only _might_ sustain physical harm.

use a carseat if you want - I usually do, but there are times when the benefits of holding my baby while in a moving vehicle outweigh the risks.

The only benefit of holding your baby is that they stop screaming. The RISK is your baby going through the windshield.

Read my above post about my DH's cousin. My aunt didn't think it was a risk either, and she lost her baby to a drunk driver.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
The only benefit of holding your baby is that they stop screaming. The RISK is your baby going through the windshield.

Read my above post about my DH's cousin. My aunt didn't think it was a risk either, and she lost her baby to a drunk driver.


But it is a real benefit vs a perceived risk. Everyone has to weigh it for themselves though. And my baby screaminig and feeling like noone is responding to her is a very real risk and truly damaging. We don't CIO in any other circumstance either.


----------



## PassionateWriter

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
absolutley! But for me, I take into accoutn my baby's emotional as well as physical well-being.

wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.









I was not implying anything about you









I was only stating what factors we take into consideration. Use a carseat under any circumstance - if that's what you feel is best. I am just saying that there are times when I don't, based on the situation.


----------



## Ironica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
But it is a real benefit vs a perceived risk.

No, it's a perceived benefit vs. a real risk.

Neurobiologists, psychologists, etc. can't agree on what the actual lasting harm is to crying for infants. There are definite neurological changes, and when you compare cultures with different practices, those where they don't use cry-it-out methods to send kids to sleep have lower levels of stress and sleep disorders as adults. We're not talking about CIO as a punishment or a sleep-training method, however; in those cases, there are clearly safe alternatives that don't involve crying.

OTOH, riding improperly restrained in a car is ALWAYS a risk. That is undisputable. No matter how safe a driver *you* are, you cannot guarantee that some idiot won't come careening out of nowhere and slam into you. I've been rear-ended at a dead stop by a drunk driver in a stolen vehicle before. I could not in any way have prevented the accident, except by NOT BEING THERE.

What you really meant to say is "real harm vs. the risk of harm." Again, the harm of allowing the child to cry in the car is debatable (but let's not debate it right now, please; I think everyone here agrees that it should be avoided if possible). You're basically saying "It's worth the gamble of a ticket, a CPS investigation, or my baby dying in an accident to stop them crying without stopping the car." And, while it might be worth all that *to you*, that does not make it a SAFER practice. It's a decision you make, based on how you weigh the issues. Me, I know my child will never die of crying in the car, while they certainly could die pretty easily if I took them out of their carseat in a moving vehicle. Keeping them safe is my first priority.

Finally, there is a big difference between a child crying alone in a room, and a child crying while someone tries to physically or verbally comfort them. If you can pull the child out of the carseat to nurse them (or even lean over and nurse them), you can also stroke their head, hold their hand, or any number of other, safer comfort measures, which would largely mitigate the neurological effects of extended crying.


----------



## FillingMyQuiver

Well said, Monica.


----------



## goodheartedmama

My DD would scream for 3 hours in the carseat if I didn't nurse her. I'd usually nurse the entire trip, but after 30 minutes or so, she'd often sleep. Letting her cry that long was not an option. Sometimes you do what you have to do.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.









I was not implying anything about you









I was only stating what factors we take into consideration. Use a carseat under any circumstance - if that's what you feel is best. I am just saying that there are times when I don't, based on the situation.


----------



## PassionateWriter

but this is the FAMILY SAFETY forum...so logic really has to dictate here what is SAFE and what is NOT....transporting a child in a car outside of a car seat is NOT safe.


----------



## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
all of these calculation matter _only_ if you are in a collision. whaat are the percentages of collisions while driving defensively? If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only _might_ sustain physical harm.

use a carseat if you want - I usually do, but there are times when the benefits of holding my baby while in a moving vehicle outweigh the risks.

Yeah, no.

We have no statistics showing permanent psychological damage done by OH NOZ A CARSEAT...oh, but we've had plenty of dead babies.

Oh..and if by chance the impossible happened and it DID damage my kid emotionally, yeah, I think I'll pay for the therapy.


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
but this is the FAMILY SAFETY forum...so logic really has to dictate here what is SAFE and what is NOT....transporting a child in a car outside of a car seat is NOT safe.









well really nothing is 'safe'... transporting a child in a car in a carseat is not safe. ita that kids should be in carseats but nobody here has the market cornered on what is and is not safe, it's not a black and white question. i think sometimes that gets forgotten here, and posts that imply some people suck and other people are the ultimate authority can really derail discussion and obscure the purpose of this forum, yk? open discussion is a good thing.


----------



## ThreeBeans

And walking around in a tiger cage of hungry tigers with a piece of raw meat tied to your throat is also perfectly safe...if the tigers are vegetarians.


----------



## alysmommy2004

For those who are interested here is a crash test video of what happens when holding an an unrestrained infant.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT...nfant_Test.wmv


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
For those who are interested here is a crash test video of what happens when holding an an unrestrained infant.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT...nfant_Test.wmv

nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.

I have held my child in my arms - and in a sling. I don't care what people do with their kids - just sharing my experiences. All of my children have HATED the carseat. There have been times when we had to go soemwhere (a funeral, older childs doctor appt, etc.) and no amoutn of pulling over and nursing was oing to solve the problem. So, yes, I have taken the baby out of his/her seat and nursed him/her.

My youngest child has a congenital heart defect that actually made it dangerous to cry (she would become cyanotic) and truly she could die if left to cry. So yes, actually on the way home from the hospital after her first heart surgery at 6 days old, I took her out of her seat.

But just to be clear, I took my older children out of their seats even though they did not have heart defects







just plain old unhappy crying has been enough for me to do so in the past.

It can and is safe, most of the time.


----------



## thismama

Ive done that too, honestly, but i wouldn't do it now. true thaat its safe unless you're in a wreck, but you can't see a wreck coming in enough time to put the babe back in the seat, yk? isn't car accidents a leading cause of death for children in n. america? too risky IMO, at least here with the frequency we drive. i take th bus when i can coz my babe cries in the carseat.


----------



## an_aurora

It's not safe at all. You only think it's safe because you were never in a collision. Car seats are extremely safe. You are just putting your children's lives in danger because you are ignorant to the risk.


----------



## alysmommy2004

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.

You're correct, but I'm assuming they'd understand how the parents body moves and what would happen with a child in a sling. Obviously the sling is on the parents body, but the child is still going to move as the parents body is thrust forward on impact.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
It's not safe at all. You only think it's safe because you were never in a collision. Car seats are extremely safe. You are just putting your children's lives in danger because you are ignorant to the risk.

I never claimed it was safe if one were to be in a collision. I said it is safe, unless one is in a collision. And it is. The only time it is dangerous is when there is a collision. What I consider, is, what are the chances of a collision?


----------



## an_aurora

Considering that car crashes are the #1 killer of children, I'd say the chances are pretty good


----------



## *Erin*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
Off to design the extend-a-boob....









it would seem that after 2 pregnancies, and nursing my dd for 4.5 yrs, and nursing my ds now, i have already invented this. sigh...
that said, no nursing in the carseat isnt the safest, but i did it b/c it was traumatizing for dd to be put in and out of her carseat over and over, and we had to get to where we were going-im tall and was able to reach my boob to her mouth without alot of carseat straddling.
i don't feel bad about it.


----------



## *Erin*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
No, it's a perceived benefit vs. a real risk.

Neurobiologists, psychologists, etc. can't agree on what the actual lasting harm is to crying for infants. There are definite neurological changes, and when you compare cultures with different practices, those where they don't use cry-it-out methods to send kids to sleep have lower levels of stress and sleep disorders as adults. We're not talking about CIO as a punishment or a sleep-training method, however; in those cases, there are clearly safe alternatives that don't involve crying.

OTOH, riding improperly restrained in a car is ALWAYS a risk. That is undisputable. No matter how safe a driver *you* are, you cannot guarantee that some idiot won't come careening out of nowhere and slam into you. I've been rear-ended at a dead stop by a drunk driver in a stolen vehicle before. I could not in any way have prevented the accident, except by NOT BEING THERE.

What you really meant to say is "real harm vs. the risk of harm." Again, the harm of allowing the child to cry in the car is debatable (but let's not debate it right now, please; I think everyone here agrees that it should be avoided if possible). You're basically saying "It's worth the gamble of a ticket, a CPS investigation, or my baby dying in an accident to stop them crying without stopping the car." And, while it might be worth all that *to you*, that does not make it a SAFER practice. It's a decision you make, based on how you weigh the issues. Me, I know my child will never die of crying in the car, while they certainly could die pretty easily if I took them out of their carseat in a moving vehicle. Keeping them safe is my first priority.

Finally, there is a big difference between a child crying alone in a room, and a child crying while someone tries to physically or verbally comfort them. If you can pull the child out of the carseat to nurse them (or even lean over and nurse them), *you can also stroke their head, hold their hand, or any number of other, safer comfort measures, which would largely mitigate the neurological effects of extended crying.*

nicely said

bolding mine-yes, and that's what i do with my ds now.









i love all the physics talk too. smart mamas are hott.


----------



## toddlermama16

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only _might_ sustain physical harm.

Seriously? Sustaining emotional harm from crying?







: I hardly doubt anyone's child is going to be suffering from any long lasting emotional issues from remaining strapped in a car seat. I seriously can't believe what a ridiculous statement that is. I'm really not trying to pick on you, but I would choose a thousand times to have my child sustaining "emotional harm" than risk their physical safety. My children have spent plenty of (unavoidable) time crying in their car seats and are no worse for wear.

***Please keep in mind that I am not referring to any SN children who might actually be harmed from crying.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Considering that car crashes are the #1 killer of children, I'd say the chances are pretty good









No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision. I've never been in a collision, and neither has my husband - thats over 45 years of combined driving for us. I actually only know of 2 people in my life who have been in serious car collisions. I do know of several minor collisions. But I know of far more uneventful drives.


----------



## queenjane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
But just to be clear, I took my older children out of their seats even though they did not have heart defects







just plain old unhappy crying has been enough for me to do so in the past.

You may possibly be re-enforcing the behavior by "rewarding" the crying with removal from the seat (of course, i dont know your kids)...my foster babe (four months old) was fussing in his seat today on a long (4 hours roundtrip, couple of stops to use bathroom, etc) hot car trip today....it cant be too fun to a baby to be strapped down looking at nothing but the seatback and no one to talk to. i can guarantee that if i took him out when he fussed/cried, every time i tried to use the seat he would fuss to see if i would take him out. Instead (since i was driving) i could only verbally soothe him. He tolerated most of the ride well.

I think if you've (general you) made sitting in the seat optional, then they will know that they dont *really* have to sit in it if they fuss enough. I can count on one hand the times my older son was ever out of his carseat (once was while driving through one of those "wild animal parks", there were no other cars because they intentionally only allow one through at a time, and we were going like five to ten miles an hour due to, yknow, zebras in the road and stuff....and i think *maybe* one other time in a similiar, fairly "safe" situation)...my older son was a super hyper kid that did not generally listen or "obey" and yet he knew that the seat wasnt optional.

I guess i'm lucky in that i didnt have a kid that freaked out in the carseat, and i know part of that is just temperment....but i am doubting that consistently taking a child out of the seat will help them learn to tolerate the seat.

Katherine


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toddlermama16* 
Seriously? Sustaining emotional harm from crying?







: .

Are you serious?? Yes, it can be harmful to let a baby cry. Do you practice crying it out at bedtime? I try and meet my children's needs - I have never let my children cry, if I can avoid it in any way.


----------



## an_aurora

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision.

Right, chances are that you are not going to be in an accident. The horrible thing about car accidents is that sometimes they are unavoidable, and a death caused by a child being unrestrained and ejected is 100% preventable. Whatever, obviously you are deadset on taking your kids out of the car seat and no amount of me telling you it's unsafe is going to change that, so I sure as hell hope for your kids' safe that you never have a blowout or hit a deer or are struck by a drunk driver.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
You may possibly be re-enforcing the behavior by "rewarding" the crying with removal from the seat (of course, i dont know your kids)...my foster babe (four months old) was fussing in his seat today on a long (4 hours roundtrip, couple of stops to use bathroom, etc) hot car trip today....it cant be too fun to a baby to be strapped down looking at nothing but the seatback and no one to talk to. i can guarantee that if i took him out when he fussed/cried, every time i tried to use the seat he would fuss to see if i would take him out. Instead (since i was driving) i could only verbally soothe him. He tolerated most of the ride well.

I think if you've (general you) made sitting in the seat optional, then they will know that they dont *really* have to sit in it if they fuss enough. I can count on one hand the times my older son was ever out of his carseat (once was while driving through one of those "wild animal parks", there were no other cars because they intentionally only allow one through at a time, and we were going like five to ten miles an hour due to, yknow, zebras in the road and stuff....and i think *maybe* one other time in a similiar, fairly "safe" situation)...my older son was a super hyper kid that did not generally listen or "obey" and yet he knew that the seat wasnt optional.

I guess i'm lucky in that i didnt have a kid that freaked out in the carseat, and i know part of that is just temperment....but i am doubting that consistently taking a child out of the seat will help them learn to tolerate the seat.

Katherine


Thank you for your thoughtful post. I actually think my babies suffer from car sickness. My 9 year old wears "Sea-bands" whenever we are in the car for more than 10 minutes or so. Of course, there are times when my children have tolerated the car seat. But htere are also times when they are not going to settle down, no matter what I try. I am referring to babies, not yet eating or drinking things other than breastmilk. It helps when I can give them a cup of something or snacks to distract them.


----------



## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Right, chances are that you are not going to be in an accident. The horrible thing about car accidents is that sometimes they are unavoidable, and a death caused by a child being unrestrained and ejected is 100% preventable. Whatever, obviously you are deadset on taking your kids out of the car seat and no amount of me telling you it's unsafe is going to change that, so I sure as hell hope for your kids' safe that you never have a blowout or hit a deer or are struck by a drunk driver.

Thank you for your kind wishes - peace


----------



## queenjane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision. I've never been in a collision, and neither has my husband - thats over 45 years of combined driving for us. I actually only know of 2 people in my life who have been in serious car collisions. I do know of several minor collisions. But I know of far more uneventful drives.


I've been in several crashes, none major but all resulting in damage to my car (and all not my fault and total surprises i couldnt avoid), in two of those situations my son was in the car (once as an infant in a bucket, the other as an older child in a seatbelt)....

I think the point that people are trying to make is that if it happens to you, then your risk is 100 percent, and since it would take a VERY minor accident to kill a baby that is not in a carseat, the risk is not worth it (no matter how minor)...i was rearended at a low rate of speed when i was in highschool, and my friend in the passenger seat, belted in, still had her head smacked into the windshield...had she been holding a baby....not good.

I'm generally not "uber safety oriented" in that i think we each need to weigh the risk/benefit for ourselves, and i dont think there is One Right Way when it comes to these things (and i totally agree with thismama that often open communication gets shut down here)....but a car collision is one of those things where, if it happens, you cant take it back or change your mind, and the results can be so devastating. Sure, the same thing can be said of many choices we may make (not vaxing, homebirth, etc)...but the only benefit to a child not being buckled in is not crying (whereas with vaxing, hospital birth, etc....there IS a risk of physical damage and/or death).....when i made controversial choices for my child (nonvaxing/homebirth), i asked myself "what can i live with?" can i live with my child dying because of a choice i made? Would i still feel like i made the best informed decision i could? In the case of a baby dying in a car accident, i dont feel i could say "i know my child was ejected from the car and killed...but he was crying!" and feel ok with that decision. But i guess everyone has to decide that for themselves.

Katherine


----------



## queenjane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I try and meet my children's needs - I have never let my children cry, if I can avoid it in any way.

When my son was a baby (he's 11 now), i felt like crying was the worst thing in the world for him, and spent alot of time trying to keep him from crying. With this new baby, i guess i just dont think crying is the worst thing in the world. Do i let him cry for hours on end (or even for many minutes)? No. But you can allow your child to communicate his feelings/needs (crying), and you can be there for your child by talking to him, showing empathy, letting them know you are there, you love them, you feel their pain. I think that goes a long way in building a healthy attachment...its not the same as CIO. Its more like saying "yeah, i know it sucks that you are in this seat and are unhappy...i promise we are getting home as soon as possible....you will feel better in a little while"...i think that makes an impression, even if you arent able to do exactly what the child wants (such as getting out of the seat)...and i think for some kids (not all of course), giving that positive reenforcement (yes, you are unhappy, but its ok, i'm here, and we'll get through it together) might help them learn to deal with the situation? i dunno...

Car sickness certainly could be an issue...i wonder if there is a homeopathic or other remedy for that?

Katherine


----------



## bandgeek

I'm just curious if you know what it's like to have a brain damaged baby?

There's this thing called "neurological immaturity" that causes a brain-damaged baby to cry non-stop no matter what you do. And a lot of times they can't nurse, they have to be tubefed. If keeping your baby from crying, and to keep them nursing is important to you...I suggest not putting your baby in a situation where they could suffer brain damage.

That is all I'm going to say.


----------



## Ironica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
But thats the thing, it CAN be safe. It IS safe - if you are not in a collision then it is perfectly safe.

The same can be said of drunk driving. The same type of thing can be said of any number of risky behaviors... if you *don't* contract HIV, sex without a condom is "perfectly safe." If you *don't* have a child with FAS, drinking during pregnancy is "perfectly safe." I actually know a guy whose mother drank and did drugs through all three of her pregnancies; for him and his youngest brother, that was "perfectly safe." For the middle one, it wasn't.

When it comes to keeping our kids safe, there's a lot that's out of our control, including the behavior of other people. Like that guy who has never been in an accident after drinking, so he feels "perfectly safe" driving home after a few beers. I can't control that, I can't prevent that. what I *can* do is make sure that whenever I'm exposed to that risk, my children (and myself) are as protected as possible. That means being properly restrained whenever we're on the road.

I'm happy for you that you've never been in a car accident. I've been in several; some as a passenger, some as the driver. Some were due to stupidity on the part of the driver in my vehicle, and some were unavoidable results of the inattention or irresponsibility of other drivers on the road. They DO happen, every day. It's a statistical fluke that they've never happened to you. You're trusting your children's lives to that statistical fluke.

And, hey, that's up to you. Do what you want; they're your responsibility. If I saw you on the road with your child unrestrained, I'd probably call 911 and might get you a ticket (and possibly a follow-up visit from CPS), but there my responsibility ends.

What I take issue with is you *advocating* that irresponsible behavior here. Take the risks you feel like taking, but telling people that it's safer to do something patently illegal and potentially deadly than to let their child cry is taking things a bit too far, as is comparing a child crying in a carseat with verbal and physical reassurance to CIO.


----------



## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I'm just curious if you know what it's like to have a brain damaged baby?

There's this thing called "neurological immaturity" that causes a brain-damaged baby to cry non-stop no matter what you do. And a lot of times they can't nurse, they have to be tubefed. If keeping your baby from crying, and to keep them nursing is important to you...I suggest not putting your baby in a situation where they could suffer brain damage.

That is all I'm going to say.


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## FillingMyQuiver

vbactivist~ Believe it or not, I can understand your thinking because at one time, I thought that way, too. When DS1 was a baby, we would routinely make long 4hr trips to visit my parents several states away. DS HATED the carseat. As a matter of fact, he hated it so much, one ride, he cried on and off (more on) for 3hrs. As hard as I tried, he would not be consoled. So I took him out of his seat and told DH to drive as carefully as possible while I nursed him. I did this several times during the trip and during MANY other trips. And I thank God every day that He had his watchful hand over my family b/c we were never in an accident on any of those trips.

BUT, my thoughts changed when I WAS in an accident 2 miles from my home at a bank. I was the driver and DS was in his carseat in the backseat. I was pulling out of a parking spot, came to a stop, put the car in 1st gear to go forward and my little 2dr Honda Civic was slammed from behind by a Nissan XTerra. The driver of the other car had pulled out of the bank drive through and was paying attention to putting her things away instead of driving.

In this simple accident where I was stopped, if I had been holding DS1, he would have been thrown from me and gone through the windshield, that's how hard I was hit, in a PARKING LOT!!!

It really changed my thought pattern.

What I'm trying to say mama, is that, while you may think it's a "perceived risk", getting into an accident is often times NOT OUR FAULT. You canNOT possibly control how others around you drive, and while driving defensively does avoid accidents, it doesn't prevent all of them. I do pray that you are never in the position to find that out, in ANY accident, because they're scary, even my "simple" accident, I was quite shaken, especially having my 8mo DS1 as a passenger.


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## wendy1221

I can't even understand why this debate is raging. OK, I played the devil's advocate yesterday, just a little bit. Only b/c I was curious, and I like a good debate once in a while. And I actually think that riding w/ the baby in a sling at low speeds wouldn't be an automatic death sentence. I find the idea intriguing and would like to know what would really happen. But that doesn't mean I would advocate doing it or even do it myself. I'm just curious as to what would really happen, b/c I don't think it would be an automatic death sentence like an unrestrained baby would be.

What's so hard about pulling over when the baby needs to nurse?
I always put my infants in the middle back seat behind me so that I can reach them while driving (even though I know I probably should put them outboard and keep someone who's forward facing in the middle. This is a compromise I make.) To stroke their head, let them suck on my finger, etc, to soothe them until we either reach our destination or I find a safe place to pull over. If I am going on a long trip, I bring my pump and I pump bottles while driving so that they can get a few ounces that way instead of pulling over to nurse every 40-60 min (yes, my babies all nursed that often, and we managed.) I didn't give them bottles the entire trip of course, but it sure saved us some time to pull over to nurse and change diapers, stretch our legs, etc, every 2-3 hours instead of every 40-60 min.


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## toddlermama16

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Are you serious?? Yes, it can be harmful to let a baby cry. Do you practice crying it out at bedtime? I try and meet my children's needs - I have never let my children cry, if I can avoid it in any way.

No, we NEVER practice CIO. And I also always try to meet my child's needs right away, every time. However, car seat safety is nonnegotiable, and if he has to cry a little, so be it. Better a crying child than a dead one. In our family, it falls under the same heading as rules such as don't play in the street, no playing with poisons, and no children left in the bathtub alone. I do my best to comfort them, not following the rules is not an option.


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## PassionateWriter

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
i was not speaking to you personally with my comments... i was speaking to the general tone/dynamic of this thread and others i've read and participated in here.

but whatever.









im sorry if you thought my remark was directed to you. it wasnt. i was simply frustrated that the discussion re: transporting a child outside a car seat being safe or not was even going on. i should have stopped reading hours before i did, but i didnt....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Apropos of nothing, my approach to vaccination is to research the hell out of each individual vaccine, delay onset and then pick and choose.

Interestingly enough, I never show up in the vaccination forum to tell the non-vaxers that they don't know what they're talking about.

see, i am the opposite. we dont vaccinate at all, after i researched the hell out of each vaccines, and each disease.

but i didnt think i was showing up in the "family safety" forum telling everyone that they didnt know what they were talking about.

i presumed that this forum was about how to SAFELY use car seats....which ones are best (for the individual child/car/family, etc. etc.) and issues of similar nature. My head was spinning when I read that someone thought it was SAFE to transport a child outside of a car seat.

im not perfect and certainly don't want to come across that way. I admitted early on that i have nursed my son in his car seat. for those limited times, i took all factors into consideration and it was a decision i made. but im not coming here and asking anyone to agree w/ me that it was SAFE..it wasn't.

i was thinking of this thread all last night (yes, im geeky sometimes) and the closest that i can come to a comparison is russian roulette.

Playing Russian Roulette is perfectly safe, as long as when I play it, the chamber with the bullet does get selected when I pull the trigger. I could play this game once a day for a year w/o blowing my head off, as long as I turn the chamber the "correct" manner..of course I really have no control over where the chamber w/ the bullet falls....so I could live all year (or longer) or I could blow my head off after the 2nd try.....

using the logic that transporting children outside of car seats in cars is about the same as playing russian roulette...both are safe if you are willing to take those chances.


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## paquerette

I don't think it's doing anyone any favors to try to claim that CIO isn't really damaging. I mean, this is MDC, we're all supposed to know better than that. But as damaging as it is, it's easier to mitigate or fix that than being crushed to death. I don't care if you have a trauma surgeon in your back pocket, once it's done it's done.

I guess the responsible thing to do if you have a car crier is to stay out of the car as much as possible. Keep your car trips down to bare necessity. We can only decide for ourselves which trips are necessary or not, but really sit down and think about it. Get your groceries down to monthly or biweekly trips. Have friends and family come visit you instead of vice versa. Do recreational things that are close to home. Have your partner pick up stuff while you're home with the babe, or vice versa once babe can be left briefly.


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## toddlermama16

Well, I wasn't claiming that CIO wasn't damaging, (if that was directed at me), but only that a child buckled safely into a car seat is probably going to be suffering few, if any, long term affects from crying temporarily. Especially if the others in the car attempt to soothe, distract, comfort verbally, sing, and otherwise provide support to the upset child.


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 

see, i am the opposite. we dont vaccinate at all, after i researched the hell out of each vaccines, and each disease.

but i didnt think i was showing up in the "family safety" forum telling everyone that they didnt know what they were talking about.

i presumed that this forum was about how to SAFELY use car seats....which ones are best (for the individual child/car/family, etc. etc.) and issues of similar nature. My head was spinning when I read that someone thought it was SAFE to transport a child outside of a car seat.

.

Exactly, I was agreeing with you









I arrived at a different conclusion after researching vaccinations, but I would never go to the vaccination board to insult or demean people who are very passionately against all vaccinations all the time.

Likewise, it bothers me that some posters seem only to come to debate the efficacy of car seats or, evidently, whether they should be used at all


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## PassionateWriter

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Exactly, I was agreeing with you









I arrived at a different conclusion after researching vaccinations, but I would never go to the vaccination board to insult or demean people who are very passionately against all vaccinations all the time.

Likewise, it bothers me that some posters seem only to come to debate the efficacy of car seats or, evidently, whether they should be used at all









oh, ok.







i was so confused b/c i know you from the other board too.

now i feel like i have to quote everyone so that its clear who i am, and am not, agreeing with.


----------



## ThreeBeans




----------



## jocelyndale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
What's so hard about pulling over when the baby needs to nurse?

Until recently, my son would scream non-stop in the car unless he had a boob in his mouth. Pacifier wouldn't work. Soothing, fingers, head rubs--nothing. He did not sleep in the car. Period.

My in-laws live five hours (without stops) north. We'd be stopping every three minutes.

You figure it out.

I'm blessed with large breasts. Sure, having my gigantic cups unrestrained is probably dangerous, but I can nurse with my butt and back firmly in place, seatbelt on, without leaning forward or to the side. And I do.

For everyday jaunts about town, we walk and take public transit. For trips to visit family or to pick up various household goods, we must drive.

You try driving even 20 minutes to the store with a hysterical, unconsoled, overwrought child. I'll sit in back next to his seat and let him have the boob. It's safer than having my husband so nervous and anxious that he's driving unsafely. Sure, it's not the most ideal option, but I was not blessed with a child who will sleep in the car.


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## cancat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 

Interestingly enough, I never show up in the vaccination forum to tell the non-vaxers that they don't know what they're talking about.

:







I think I love you, threebeans


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## cancat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
\

My youngest child has a congenital heart defect that actually made it dangerous to cry (she would become cyanotic) and truly she could die if left to cry. So yes, actually on the way home from the hospital after her first heart surgery at 6 days old, I took her out of her seat.

\


Huh, my daughter has a congenital heart defect, and I would never take her out of the carseat while it was moving....actually, it was the experience in the hospital seeing all the children who had been in car accidents that lead me to be a car seat tech....


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## Jwebbal

I think part of the problem here is that we have someone arguing that it's safe to have a child out of a car seat, someone who has never been in an accident. They think that because they haven't been in an accident because they are some how "safe". They are ignoring the fact that no matter how safe YOU are, others might not be, and then you are at serious risk. The other thing is that even a very low speed accident can cause great injury and even death in certain circumtances, one of those being an infant out of a car seat. Those crash tests we watch, those are commonly 30 mph accidents, not 45, 55, 65, or above, as they don't test crash at those speeds. It is beyond comprehension how serious even a 30 mph crash can be, damaging the car, and the people inside. I have only been in low speed accidents, all but one the fault of other drivers. None were head on thankfully, where both cars are going opposite directions and hit head on. Those are VERY serious. All but one accident (the one I caused) I was injured enough to seek medical care. My partner works in an ER, and she sees the result of accidents where babies were either improperly restrained or not at all. Honestly, most of those babies were killed. One as being held by a 12 yo girl, who watched that baby go through a windshield because she was unable to hold on, the accident was low speed.


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
Huh, my daughter has a congenital heart defect, and I would never take her out of the carseat while it was moving....actually, it was the experience in the hospital seeing all the children who had been in car accidents that lead me to be a car seat tech....

all i can tell you is with MY daughters particular defect we were told to do everything we could to not let her cry - because the cyanosis resulting from the extra work of crying could lead to brain damage and death. Im sure her cardiologist would not recommend taking her out of the carseat. I only said that I made the choice to do so based on our circumstances.

NAK (not while driving)


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
and there are people here who are trained who can tell you that it will not work the way you say it does. Whether

this is an awful lot like saying only doctors opinions matter re childbirth. our experiencese are no less valid because we aren't "professionals".


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## cancat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
all i can tell you is with MY daughters particular defect we were told to do everything we could to not let her cry - because the cyanosis resulting from the extra work of crying could lead to brain damage and death. Im sure her cardiologist would not recommend taking her out of the carseat. I only said that I made the choice to do so based on our circumstances.

NAK (not while driving)


Wouldn't her sats go UP when she was crying?







I'll have to ask my neighbor who's a respiratory therapist, and whose son had open heart surgery as well, why this wouldn't apply to all defect/repairs...


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## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
That's fine...but it's still not safe, and there are people here who are trained who can tell you that it will not work the way you say it does. Whether or not you still do it, is up to you.









Well can they? Trillian and Wendy were helpful on the physics. The car seat techs were giving wrong information...
And it _was_ someone trained I got the info on the sling. (They did say it was not as safe as a carseat, but if you had no option but to take your child out, it was a good compromise)


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cancat* 
Wouldn't her sats go UP when she was crying?







I'll have to ask my neighbor who's a respiratory therapist, and whose son had open heart surgery as well, why this wouldn't apply to all defect/repairs...


I "think" your child and mine had the same defect - can't remember now. tetralogy of fallot. her sats were best when she was sleep[ping (70-85), crying brought them down to the 50s. the cardiologist was very clear about this from the moment she was born (it was very stressful!)

And actuially, when I watched a film about this defect (Something the Lord made), there is dialogue surrounding this advice as well.


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## cancat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Well can they? Trillian and Wendy were helpful on the physics. The car seat techs were giving wrong information...
And it _was_ someone trained I got the info on the sling. (They did say it was not as safe as a carseat, but if you had no option but to take your child out, it was a good compromise)

I am a tech as well, and I can tell you that they have never tested a sling as a restraint in a car, and it is highly likely it would fail to restrain the baby at all, resulting in this: 




I am not trying to say that anyone's EXPERIENCE is less valid, but just to say that car crashes are the MOST likely way for your child to die, and there are very easy ways to minimize the chances of that happening. Your OPINION that your baby crying is 100% emotional trauma is fine...if that informs your personal decision, then so be it. All I (or any of us) can give you are facts, and the choice is up to you.

One's _experience_ doesn't change physics...


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## FillingMyQuiver

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I "think" your child and mine had the same defect - can't remember now. tetralogy of fallot. her sats were best when she was sleep[ping (70-85), crying brought them down to the 50s. the cardiologist was very clear about this from the moment she was born (it was very stressful!)

And actuially, when I watched a film about this defect (Something the Lord made), there is dialogue surrounding this advice as well.

Well, I will say that given the circumstances surrounding your DD and the info you've been given, I would make the choice to take her out and wear her in a sling. HOWEVER, that would be after making every attempt to avoid the car at all costs.

BUT, in normal circumstances, w/ a child that does NOT have a medical condition, I would NOT take them out of the seat. And like I said, I've done it before, but never will again.


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## an_aurora

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Well can they? Trillian and Wendy were helpful on the physics. The car seat techs were giving wrong information...
And it _was_ someone trained I got the info on the sling. (They did say it was not as safe as a carseat, but if you had no option but to take your child out, it was a good compromise)

A sling is NOT EVER a "good compromise" for a car seat.

Here is the EXACT quote from my training manual. I will trust the NHSTA engineers









Quote:

WEIGHT X SPEED=RESTRAINING FORCE
10 pound infant x 30 mph=300 pounds of restraining force
I was NOT giving out the wrong information.


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## EviesMom

Aurora, you may be getting those numbers from your manual, and they may serve as a "layman's" or "good enough" estimate of force, because it's going to be high enough to be deadly and "less deadly" or "more deadly" is pointless. Plus, you're talking about in a crash scenario where the speed drops to 0 in a matter of miliseconds. I've written some of those kinds of manuals, but for UPS and Home Depot about hazardous substances and heavy machinery.

But that formula is not really correct in terms of physics.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trillian* 
This doesn't make sense. The units don't work: pounds (mass) x mph does not equal pounds (force).

In order to calculate the force of impact on the baby you need the acceleration of the vehicle. If you go from 30 mph to 0 slowly, there is very little force; hit a wall, and there will be a very large force. You can calculate force = mass x acceleration, where the appropriate units would be newtons = kg x m/s^2 or, in foot/pound units, force-lbs = slugs x ft/s^2 (where a slug is unit of mass defined as 1 force-lb s^2/ft).

/end physics lecture

In any case, the point was a good one. Leaning over the baby in a moving vehicle is dangerous.

You're right about it being dangerous to hold the baby in a sling, and that the force resulting would be deadly, but the formula is not really correct. She's agreeing with you about the dangers, she's just saying that it's more complicated than your formula shows. Saying "it's more complicated in physics than this, but the formula mass x mph=force in a crash serves as a simple shorthand." That would be correct. What's the paragraph before and after your quote?


----------



## an_aurora

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Aurora, you may be getting those numbers from your manual, and they may serve as a "layman's" or "good enough" estimate of force, because it's going to be high enough to be deadly and "less deadly" or "more deadly" is pointless. Plus, you're talking about in a crash scenario where the speed drops to 0 in a matter of miliseconds. I've written some of those kinds of manuals, but for UPS and Home Depot about hazardous substances and heavy machinery.

But that formula is not really correct in terms of physics.


Right, I understand that it is written for the lay person who knows nothing about physics, and it does well for that purpose. I totally understand that the units are not right at all, and this thread is a pretty in-depth discussion of this same thing. Anyway, what I was getting at was that I did not in fact provide inaccurate information--the manual that I have is an over-simplified equation that doesn't make sense, but did arise from lots of physicists and engineers studying this.


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
And it _was_ someone trained I got the info on the sling.

No, really, you didn't.


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## ThreeBeans

SafeKids is an international organization.

If a CPST actually recommended or said it was ok to transfer a baby in a car in a sling (and honestly I will believe that when I see a pig fly around my computer with a five point harness strapped on its @$$) SafeKids would probably immediately revoke his certification and forbid him to work with car seats until he got remedial training.


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## fairejour

"All children are different"

No, they are all equally unsafe when unbuckled from a carseat.


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## FillingMyQuiver

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
SafeKids is an international organization.

If a CPST actually recommended or said it was ok to transfer a baby in a car in a sling (and honestly I will believe that when I see a pig fly around my computer with a five point harness strapped on its @$$) SafeKids would probably immediately revoke his certification and forbid him to work with car seats until he got remedial training.

nak

please don't think i was implying that what she said was okay in any way. i wasn't aware that the org. that certifies techs is internat'l. i was merely pointing out that her experience could very well be different.

also, maybe she thought the person was 'certified' but they actually weren't, like the fire dept and police dept members we frequently hear about giving out bad advice.


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## ThreeBeans

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FillingMyQuiver* 
also, maybe she thought the person was 'certified' but they actually weren't, like the fire dept and police dept members we frequently hear about giving out bad advice.









I think that's exactly what happened. You would not believe some of the wonders I have had to clean up from the local PD/FD at my check station







:


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
"All children are different"

No, they are all equally unsafe when unbuckled from a carseat.


It is only unsafe if you are in a collision. Otherwise, it's perfectly safe!


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## ThreeBeans

Four things have to be proved if a paramedic is charged with malpractice. One of them is "The paramedic failed to do what another reasonable paramedic would have done or did what another reasonable paramedic would not have done."

I believe the same holds true for a parent accused of malicious neglect.


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## gabysmom617

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trillian* 
This doesn't make sense. The units don't work: pounds (mass) x mph does not equal pounds (force).

In order to calculate the force of impact on the baby you need the acceleration of the vehicle. If you go from 30 mph to 0 slowly, there is very little force; hit a wall, and there will be a very large force. You can calculate force = mass x acceleration, where the appropriate units would be newtons = kg x m/s^2 or, in foot/pound units, force-lbs = slugs x ft/s^2 (where a slug is unit of mass defined as 1 force-lb s^2/ft).

/end physics lecture

In any case, the point was a good one. Leaning over the baby in a moving vehicle is dangerous.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
If your manual says that, it's wrong, too. I'm a scientist as well, and have taken physics up to quantum mechanics, so yeah, I'm decent at physics. Force=mass*acceleration, not mass*speed. More will be involved than just simply ma, though.

I found this: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...0047.Ph.r.html

ANd anyway, the baby would only be taking the impact of it's own weight*acceleration, not the force of the moms weight or anything else. The seatbelt would take the force of the mom's weight, while the sling would be the thing impacting the baby. THe sling may or may not be strong enough to handle the force of the impact, it depends on the strength of the fabric and the speed you were going befor impact. I doubt the baby would be ejected from a sling as easily as a snugli, but at the same time, there's probably less head support. Plus the sling fabric would usually be more flimsy and likely to tear or break, although the clips on a Snugli are pretty flimsy as well.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
*Former mechanical engineer*

Trillian is right that Force does not equal weight times speed.

Force equals mass times acceleration. *Note - lbs is a weight not a mass*
Acceleration/deceleration in an accident equals the speed you're traveling divided by how long it takes you to stop.
Momentum equals mass times speed.

The weight of something is it's mass times the acceleration due to gravity. So weight is actually a force. (That's why people are lighter on the moon. The force due to gravity is different.)

Therefore, no, you cannot multiply force times speed and get force.

If you stop suddenly as in an accident your acceleration/deceleration will be very high. The faster you are going, the higher your negative acceleration.

In that respect, the techs have the right idea that force is proportional to both your weight and your speed. In other words, as a persons weight goes up, or as the speed you're travelling goes up, the force in an accident also goes up.

However, a 100 lb person in a 30 mph crash would not have a force of 3000 lbs.

ETA: After working it out a 100 lb person stopping from 30 mph to 0 in 0.2 seconds would have a force of about 684 lbs. That is a very basic conclusion though as there are many more systems and forces at play in an accident.

Edited again to add something about acceleration and also to add:

Regardless of exactly the force during an accident, I wouldn't be comfortable with any amount of weight hitting my baby in a car accident 1000 lbs or 10.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trillian* 
Actually pounds is a valid unit of force, and can be converted to newtons (the SI unit). Pounds per square inch is a unit of pressure.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
mass i sproportional weight on earth, though, so there's no reason to differentiate the 2 in these calculations. You can convert your "force" in lbs to your "mass" in kg, and still call your mass in kg your weight. It's just semantics, really.

Thank all of you. Now, if you all will excuse me, I'm going to go lie down until my headache goes away.







:


----------



## dallaschildren

This is a good topic with a lot of useful factual information from quite a few techs and engineers. I would greatly appreciate it if everyone could continue this discussion and when posting, do so within MDC UA guidelines. If not, your post(s) will be pulled and appropriate action taken. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Dallaschildren


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## JessicaS

A seatbelt saved my life.

I can't imagine not giving my child the same chance


----------



## karliyanchus

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Well, you don't need to sit without budging, but for optimal safety, you should be upright, with your tush and back as far back in the seat as you can go and your feet planted on the floor.

The two things that you should pay most attention to are making sure the lap belt as drawn tightly under your belly, across your pelvis, and that the shoulder belt rests snugly between your neck and shoulder and crosses your chest in the center, without sliding off your shoulder or coming up against your throat.

i just leaned over and nursed the rear facing strapped in baby beside me without removing the shoulder or lap belt. i figured.... if he was screaming his head off i'd be twisted over trying to soothe him anyway. might as well nurse and actually be effective at calming him down.


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## Papooses

(double post, sorry)


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## Papooses

CIO can indeed be traumatizing, but CIO is not defined by offering the child your soothing presence of voice & touch. Life is difficult, it is the parents responsibility to help the baby. Helping means making sure there is a future for that baby. Incorrect positioning/buckling in a moving vehicle drastically reduces the chance that baby will have a future. Incorrect positioning includes the mother's body leaning over in front of or on to the baby.

Sure, not everyone has a crash everytime they're in a car. On average, according the the New York State Defensive Driving manual, each person has a moderate-severe crash every 10 years. Babies die even in "mild" crashes. 30 MPH crashes are much more violent than most imagine. Increase the speed, increase the risk of death. Crashes are the leading cause of death for all children. Death is merely the tip of the iceberg. Other injuries include brain damage, paralysis, amputation, etc. Most such injuries are easily preventable simply by following the carseat + vehicle manuals. You will never find a manual that says it's OK to lean over your child or to hold your baby in your lap or in a sling. It's never OK unless you're safely parked.

We can only control what happens inside our own vehicles. Not being properly restrained will in fact be traumatizing to *every* member of the family when another vehicle crashes into the family in question because I sincerely doubt any parent could brush off the fact that they chose not to follow safest practice guidelines. The guilt would be unbearable. The choice comes down to helping the baby cope until you find a safe place to park & then hold/nurse/etc. or risk finding yourself holding a dead baby or a baby that will forever need diaper changing, bathing & spoon feeding even as an adult.

We need perspective here. CIO is the lesser evil when the very real, very urgent threat of imminent death or permanent disability looms over head. There are many other safe options for helping children in their carseats: including a predictable routine, blankies, cold teethers, music, soft toys, human touch (without leaning dangerously out of position), etc....


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## PassionateWriter

yeh, its completely EXTREME to restrain a child in a plane.









http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24969971/

the mom and pilot were injured. the toddler is dead.









for the inconvenience of installing a car seat, the toddler would have had a better chance of living. i mean really....why is this recommendation considered extreme?


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## hanno

I think we must understand that this is a multicultural/international forum. What's generally considered correct for America may not be the same everywhere.

Also, we take the bus frequently. No car seat, very bumpy, often standing, lots of space to fly around. Why is that okay?


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## Papooses

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
I think we must understand that this is a multicultural/international forum. What's generally considered correct for America may not be the same everywhere.

Also, we take the bus frequently. No car seat, very bumpy, often standing, lots of space to fly around. Why is that okay?

Multicultural or not, physics don't change. There is a WORLD WIDE movement to improve child safety on the roads.
http://www.who.int/roadsafety/en/
http://www.globalroadsafety.org/
http://www.worldroadsafety.org/

As for the bus, there's another recent thread that addresses this, specifically, this post









*This is pretty enlightening for those who think crashes won't happen to them!*
http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/media/crimecrash.gif
(1 fatality every 12 minutes in passenger cars & 1 injury every 11 minutes)

& here is evidence that carseats are wonderful on airplanes







:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/National

Quote:

When they looked inside the upturned wreckage they saw an incredible sight - two bodies rested in the front seats, but in the rear, alive and hanging upside down in a car safety seat, was a three-year-old girl.


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## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
It is? Really? I'm surprised to hear this. No one has ever looked at me funny for bringing our Marathon on every single plane flight our son has ever taken. Yes, sometimes they ask if we're checking the seat, but all we have to say is "No, we bought a ticket for him" and that's that.

Not to mention that the position you're calling "extreme" is the one that's consistent with all available guidelines and laws. OTOH, the position you're comparing it to is the one completely CONTRARY to the available guidelines.

I think this is a probably a different country thing. _No one_ here would even _think_ of taking a carseat on a plane! (apart from a bucket for an under one perhaps). We fly a lot and I have never seen a child in a carseat. And actually we have flown in the US pretty often and I have never seen a child in a carseat there either. In the UK you get a lapbelt for a child which attaches to your belt. They are apparently banned in the US, I am not sure why? What I was calling "extreme" was the views of some people on this forum - I have seen it said to people that if they can't afford to buy a seat for an under 2, then they just shouldn't travel, especially for pleasure - it's "not worth the risk". This *IS* totally extreme when you look at the statistics.


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## Papooses

National Geographic Video: Sioux City Crash: Lap Baby Segment

It's partially about where people live, but it's more about the fact that seatbelts didn't even exist in most US cars until a few decades ago & many countries are still pathetically behind on that factor. Which is why the WHO has become involved with the issue. It takes a long time for people to understand the risks + the very easy solutions.

Yes, there are less crashes in airplanes, but it's not so much about crashing. I, too, have rarely seen carseats used on planes (actually only 1 other than my own) but I have witnessed more than a few injuries to infants & toddlers during turbulence.

What it boils down to is the fact that, once a child suffers otherwise easily preventable injury, no parent would say they don't regret not choosing to follow safest practice. To the contrary, the guilt would last a lifetime.


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## PassionateWriter

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I have seen it said to people that if they can't afford to buy a seat for an under 2, then they just shouldn't travel, especially for pleasure - it's "not worth the risk". This *IS* totally extreme when you look at the statistics.

i dont think its an extreme position to take. if i cant afford to transport my child safely, then i cant afford to travel for pleasure. i would rather stay home, swim daily and save up for next year so that i can afford to travel safely. There is a you tube video of a FA urging parents to purchase tickets for their under 2 yo's...they are not only in danger themselves, but they are a danger to other passengers.


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## roxyrox

I don't understand why the US doesn't allow the use of lapbelts for infants on their parents' knees. I think they shoud. I also find it hard to believe you have witnessed "more than a few injuries" of toddlers during turbulence though. Severe turbulence is pretty rare, injury is even rarer. Planes are pretty safe, yk?
You could choose to never take your child anywhere because it's "not safe". I think that's a pretty sad way to live personally. Some people can't afford to buy another ticket. Should they just not go on holiday? (yes is the answer of some here). It is a little OTT re carseats here imo. Yes they are good, yes you should use them if you can but if your child is really upset, take then out and comfort them fgs. And don't forfeit holidays b/c you can't buy a seat for your 1yo!


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## Papooses

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I don't understand why the US doesn't allow the use of lapbelts for infants on their parents' knees.

Same reason it's not safe to lean over your child in a car -- in the event of an emergency, the baby becomes the adult's airbag.... Squished baby.


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## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Same reason it's not safe to lean over your child in a car -- in the event of an emergency, the baby becomes the adult's airbag.... Squished baby.

Cars are nothing like planes. In turbulence you generally go up/down. And leaning over you child in a car would be _nothing_ like an airbag- an airbag comes from the opposite direction. In a plane? _nothing_ like an airbag either...


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## kalimay

Thank you Trillian and Wendy for the Physics lesson. That was great.


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i dont think its an extreme position to take. if i cant afford to transport my child safely, then i cant afford to travel for pleasure. i would rather stay home, *swim daily* and save up for next year so that i can afford to travel safely. There is a you tube video of a FA urging parents to purchase tickets for their under 2 yo's...they are not only in danger themselves, but they are a danger to other passengers.

Swimming is very risky also.
Everyone makes their own diecsions based on their own circumstances. By all means, do what you think is best! I will too







Believe it or not, there are other equally safe choices that you might not make.


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## Papooses

I'm just gonna go practice some slow, deep breathing exercises to rid my mind of the unconscionable carelessness of other families.

Mantra: the only family that requires my worry is my own....

(fixed the link)


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## Papooses

I don't even own a car. I ride the city bus & my child rides the school bus. When we carpool/ride-share, kiddo uses a Ride Safer Travel Vest.

In other threads I've said repeatedly that CORRECT USE *always* trumps expensive, fancy features.


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## dallaschildren

This thread is back. For those that adhered to the UA, thank you. The information shared within it is important, and because the subject has come up before it should be returned. It will however be locked. Please do not start any spin offs.

Thank you.
Dallaschildren


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