# When natural consequenses have negative consequences for the rest of the family



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm wondering how we could have handled a situation in our house differently. Please feel free to chime in with your ideas or how you might have handled it. I know we're not the most perfect GD family here at MDC, but we're trying. I'm a little scared to post here and be honest for fear of being flamed for doing something wrong, but here goes...

It's Saturday morning. I'm making breakfast. DD1 (4.5) has asked for cinnamon toast. DD2 (20 mos) wants the same. I make the toast. I cut DD2's into quarters and leave DD1's whole. I put the plates down in front of them at the coffee table. We were having a low-key morning, relaxing, taking things slow, and watching cartoons, etc. My first mistake was not feeding them at the dinner table.

DD2 picks up DD1's toast and takes a bite. I notice this, show DD2 her toast, and tell DD1 it's OK to eat that toast because DD2 only bit off some crust which DD1 doesn't eat anyway. Well, DD1 won't have any of it because now the toast has "germs" on it. She has a friend who's obsessed with germs and it's rubbing off on her now.







:

She asks me to make her more toast. I try to convince her to eat the one I already made (I was willing to make another one, I just would have preferred she eat it since there really wasn't anything wrong with it). Things escalate rapidly. DD1 flips out, picks up her plate, runs screaming into the kitchen to throw away the toast. DH and I both tell her not to throw away the toast. DH says he'll eat it. But she continues running and screaming. I'm sure she heard us tell her not to throw it away, though, because she was able to repeat that we'd told her to not throw it in the trash.

Natural consequense is that she doesn't get more cinnamon toast since she didn't listen to us telling her not to throw it away. Here's the rub -- she hadn't eaten anything for breakfast yet. Like most kids, no food = horrible grumpy miserable behavior. We told her she didn't get more toast because she hadn't listened to us and stopped when we told her not to throw it away. I offered to make her whatever else she wanted, but no cinnamon toast. She refused to eat anything else.

I had no idea what to do. I couldn't let her go hungry because the day would just continue to deteriorate. I couldn't force her to eat something. We don't force our kids to eat anything. I just didn't know what to do. So I offered her a choice. I wanted to give her an out, but I didn't want to just back down and make the toast. Either she could have a time out for not listening and then I'd make her some cinnamon toast, or she could go w/o toast and eat something else. She argued a bit, but chose the time out. Then she ate the toast, and we had a great rest of our day.

I feel bad about using the time out because it felt so arbitrary. I use time outs only when someone is out of control as a way to diffuse the situation and start over. But she really needed to eat or else things would have been really bad the rest of the day. Past experience has taught me that I don't care if they skip eating the rest of the day so long as they eat breakfast.

Maybe I should have just waited and let some time go by. She would have eaten something else when she was hungry. I was just concerened about more tantrums happening if she was hungry. At the same time I felt like there had to be some consequense to her flipping out and not listening to us. She heard us, she just chose to do what she wanted to do.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Well, donning my flame retardant jacket, I will say that I think you mostly did ok.

I like to remind my kids of when they are flipping out, or whining, and I make it known that I will not respond to it, but will respond when they ask in a nice way. I think a caring, gentle time out where the parents are right there, but it is made known that "we do not need to act out like this", is ok. I think it can help calm them down. But I don't do "alone" time outs.

I think maybe it turned into a control thing with the toast.My dd is 4, and everything sems to be a control issue lately. If I say, it's good for you, we're eating this for dinner", then she decides she wants something entirely different. So, I think we should just think very carefully before we ban or limit things.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I'm wondering how we could have handled a situation in our house differently. Please feel free to chime in with your ideas or how you might have handled it. I know we're not the most perfect GD family here at MDC, but we're trying. I'm a little scared to post here and be honest for fear of being flamed for doing something wrong, but here goes...

It's Saturday morning. I'm making breakfast. DD1 (4.5) has asked for cinnamon toast. DD2 (20 mos) wants the same. I make the toast. I cut DD2's into quarters and leave DD1's whole. I put the plates down in front of them at the coffee table. We were having a low-key morning, relaxing, taking things slow, and watching cartoons, etc. My first mistake was not feeding them at the dinner table.

DD2 picks up DD1's toast and takes a bite. I notice this, show DD2 her toast, and tell DD1 it's OK to eat that toast because DD2 only bit off some crust which DD1 doesn't eat anyway. Well, DD1 won't have any of it because now the toast has "germs" on it. She has a friend who's obsessed with germs and it's rubbing off on her now.

She asks me to make her more toast.

I would have stopped right here and made her another toast. Then had a talk with her about germs, not waisting food, whatever was appropriate. Her fears are real for her, but in her mind "nobody cared", which led to her flipping out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I wanted to give her an out, but I didn't want to just back down and make the toast.

Why?

I still remember my mother's sayng (I am the older sister) - "When two people engage in power struggle, the one who is smarter is the one who is wrong"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
She heard us, she just chose to do what she wanted to do.

I also see nothing wrong with that. I also often hear people, but still choose to do what I want... I also might realize later (sometime 1min later) that it was not a right choice, but we have to learn to make wrong choices as well as right ones.


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## babsbob (Nov 17, 2005)

Yeah, I would have made her more toast when she asked me to. It just would have been my natural reaction since her toast was "invaded" and if she asked nicely.
Then I would have eaten the toast. MMMmmm cinnamon toast.

I can't wait until I have two kids and have to deal with these kinds of situations. Won't be long now!


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

irinam said:


> Why?
> I still remember my mother's sayng (I am the older sister) - "When two people engage in power struggle, the one who is smarter is the one who is wrong"
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
The natural consequenses of my mistakes and behavior was her tantrum. The natural consequense for her not listening to me and DH was that she didn't get cinnamon toast because hers was in the trash where she chose to put it.


Exactly.

So both of you made mistakes. You got "your" natural consequence, she got "hers". Then how come she gets punished on top of that and... well, *you* don't?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I'm just trying to see how the natural consequenses work when ultimately those consequenses will lead to worse behavior.

Honestly? I would not concentrate on consequences. I would concentrate on everybody's well being. And if that well being means to "let one slip by", so be it.

I believe that she can learn even a more valuable lesson from that - the one of forgivness, compassion and flexibility (by you modeling those)

There is usually not much of lesson being learned by kids at the time of "flipping". Kids will submit to a punishment and even repeat what we want to hear by muttering "I know I was punished because I did XYZ"

They know they lost their "cool" (Haven't we all? Think PMS







) Just like all of us they don't need for it to be escalated, they usually need help to regain that control (Hugs work!)

And I totally see how making a toast *after a tantrum* would feel awkward. I would try to avoid the tantrum in the first place.

And... completely off topic - I am impressed by your level-headed and calm reply to my rather abrupt post







Your DD is lucky to have you there to teach her this invaluable trait!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
She asks me to make her more toast. I try to convince her to eat the one I already made (I was willing to make another one, I just would have preferred she eat it since there really wasn't anything wrong with it). Things escalate rapidly. DD1 flips out, picks up her plate, runs screaming into the kitchen to throw away the toast. DH and I both tell her not to throw away the toast. DH says he'll eat it. But she continues running and screaming. I'm sure she heard us tell her not to throw it away, though, because she was able to repeat that we'd told her to not throw it in the trash.

Natural consequense is that she doesn't get more cinnamon toast since she didn't listen to us telling her not to throw it away. Here's the rub -- she hadn't eaten anything for breakfast yet. Like most kids, no food = horrible grumpy miserable behavior. We told her she didn't get more toast because she hadn't listened to us and stopped when we told her not to throw it away. I offered to make her whatever else she wanted, but no cinnamon toast. She refused to eat anything else.

I had no idea what to do. I couldn't let her go hungry because the day would just continue to deteriorate. I couldn't force her to eat something. We don't force our kids to eat anything. I just didn't know what to do. So I offered her a choice. I wanted to give her an out, but I didn't want to just back down and make the toast. Either she could have a time out for not listening and then I'd make her some cinnamon toast, or she could go w/o toast and eat something else. She argued a bit, but chose the time out. Then she ate the toast, and we had a great rest of our day.

I feel bad about using the time out because it felt so arbitrary. I use time outs only when someone is out of control as a way to diffuse the situation and start over. But she really needed to eat or else things would have been really bad the rest of the day. Past experience has taught me that I don't care if they skip eating the rest of the day so long as they eat breakfast.

Maybe I should have just waited and let some time go by. She would have eaten something else when she was hungry. I was just concerened about more tantrums happening if she was hungry. At the same time I felt like there had to be some consequense to her flipping out and not listening to us. She heard us, she just chose to do what she wanted to do.

No flames here because I've been less than ideal GD myself in situations where I'm not thinking and DS escalates quickly - and he can escalate very quickly sometimes. As a Monday morning quarterback for you, though, since you asked....









Unless she is in the habit of throwing away and/or otherwise wasting food, I'd probably chalk this one up to her having a bad morning and a little bit of a flip out, and not done anything other than explain to her that throwing away food that someone else is willing to eat is not something you do in your family. And that you don't appreciate wasting food. Not making her another piece of toast is fine if you want to make that a logical consequence of her not eating the first one, and as you said if you waited a little while she probably would have just picked something else to eat. The time out is clearly not related to the meal, so I don't think that was effective and you've already realized that it was aribtrary, since you felt like you had to "do" something at that point.

I guess on a scale of things, a piece of wasted cinnamon toast doesn't register on my radar beyond a "Hey bud, not cool to waste food, I would have eaten that. Next time just leave it." *because* it's not a regular occurrence. If it is a regular occurrence, then the reason behind it needs to be figured out and looked into more deeply. But I suspect in this situation it was more what irinam wrote, that she wasn't feeling like her discomfort was being taken seriously. You've also recognized tht part of the issue was not eating at the table and thus giving DD2 access to the food. It probably would have helped initially if you would have validated that that was a mistake - not necessarily apologizing, but recognizing to your DD1 that that was a mistake on your part.

For my own almost 3-year-old, I've found a simple, "I understand what you're saying" goes a long way in preventing freak outs, even if I'm not in agreement with what his idea is....we can discuss the disagreement from that point on. I also really feel for the screaming/running/disregarding, DS does that, too.

I don't think you really did anything *wrong*, but I think a way bigger deal was made out of toast than needed to be....and again, I'm right there with you, I know I've made bigger deals out of things than I've needed to...all we can do is analyze, regroup, and try to maintain our perspective a little more.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I wouldn't make more cinnamon toast~my recipe for it is rather involved and once it's made I wouldn't go get everything out a second time--not even if it was my toast and it fell in the toilet







It would be grab-and-go second choices here.

Honestly, she threw it out. That was her choice. She had her reasons. Making cinnamon toast is something nice you did for her, and you aren't obligated to a do-over on command. She is free to get something else. If she wants to skip breakfast, that is really her choice, right? I know she'll be grumpy, and that isn't fun, but she can't learn to make better choices if you spare her the very direct consequences of her decision.

I would express this in a kind of bored tone "I'm sorry your toast was messed up. I'm done making breakfast for the day, but there's cereal and fruit here if you feel hungry".


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Like I said, mistake #1 was feeding them in the living room in front of the TV instead of in the dining room. Mistake #2 was in how I communicated to her about trying to convince her to eat the toast her sister had taken a bite of. She obviously thought I was going to force her to eat that piece. I could have been more clear. But I couldn't change either of those, and it led to her tantrum. *However she was responsible for choosing to have a tantrum and not listen to me or her dad.*

Bolding my emphasis....

weeeellllllllllll......I think the definition of a tantrum is having emotions that you can't handle, so I don't know that it was her *choice* to have the tantrum. It was her choice to throw out the toast despite you asking her not to, and your choice to not make more toast. I think it probably should have ended there, given a little time, and then regrouped for what else she might want to eat.

I don't think this is necessarily a big teaching moment here, beyond not wasting food. I think that her seeing you recognize the mistakes you made, and you letting her know it was a mistake for her to throw out the toast is really all that was needed there for her to learn something.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Me? I'd make a new piece of cinnamon toast.

First of all the natural consequence to her throwing away the cinnamon toast is NOT "making her anything else she wants for breakfast besides cinnamon toast". It's getting NOTHING for breakfast.

Since you don't want that and neither would I, I would go ahead and make another piece. Making her anything other than not cinnamon toast is punishemnt, pure and simple.

As for the consequence it would be as follows "I will make you another piece. However, I asked you not to throw your other piece away and you did and that was wasteful. Daddy would have eaten it. Next time I expect you not to be wasteful and do as we ask about not throwing it away."

Message given! Nuf said, Nuf done!


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## cravenab00 (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I wouldn't make more cinnamon toast~my recipe for it is rather involved and once it's made I wouldn't go get everything out a second time--not even if it was my toast and it fell in the toilet







It would be grab-and-go second choices here.

Honestly, she threw it out. That was her choice. She had her reasons. Making cinnamon toast is something nice you did for her, and you aren't obligated to a do-over on command. She is free to get something else. If she wants to skip breakfast, that is really her choice, right? I know she'll be grumpy, and that isn't fun, but she can't learn to make better choices if you spare her the very direct consequences of her decision.

I would express this in a kind of bored tone "I'm sorry your toast was messed up. I'm done making breakfast for the day, but there's cereal and fruit here if you feel hungry".


I agree with everything heartmama said.

I think you handled it pretty well.

The only suggestion I could come up with, was to offer to cut off the piece that her sister took a bite out of. Dont know if it would have worked, but its worth a shot.

I know my son freaks out if his food is touching, so we usually have to scrape or cut pieces off of things.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
And I totally see how making a toast *after a tantrum* would feel awkward. I would try to avoid the tantrum in the first place.

And... completely off topic - I am impressed by your level-headed and calm reply to my rather abrupt post







Your DD is lucky to have you there to teach her this invaluable trait!

Amen to the first, and thanks for the second.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Unless she is in the habit of throwing away and/or otherwise wasting food, I'd probably chalk this one up to her having a bad morning and a little bit of a flip out, and not done anything other than explain to her that throwing away food that someone else is willing to eat is not something you do in your family.

She is in the habit of wasting food. She does it a lot. She asks for something, and then doesn't eat it. Having processed it with you mamas helps me see the real issue wasn't the tantrum or the throwing away of a single piece of toast, but a habit of wasting food.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I wouldn't make more cinnamon toast~my recipe for it is rather involved and once it's made I wouldn't go get everything out a second time--not even if it was my toast and it fell in the toilet







It would be grab-and-go second choices here.

Mine's complicated too! I'm also seeing that part of it was that I just didn't feel like making more because it's time consuming. I just didn't feel like it! DH offered to make it but DD1 didn't want him to because "he puts too much cinnamon on it." So, it was all on me. Sometimes I just want to sip my coffee and be left alone!

Thanks for your gentle and honest responses. It's helped me process the situation. Being a mommy is so flipping hard sometimes. I often feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Prevention: In the moment after DD2 had taken a bite of DD1's toast, and the toast intended for DD2 was still untouched, I would have said, "Whoops! I guess THIS one is yours!" and switched the plates. Unless, that is, DD1 thinks it's very important to have her toast whole instead of cut in quarters.

Quote:

After the tantrum, I felt bad for her and really wanted to make her more toast. But I feel like making more toast w/o any other consequence would have validated her behavior. In my opinion validating that behavior would have taught her that it's ok to flip out and have a tantrum when you don't get your way because having a tantrum will make the other person give you what you wanted.
I know just what you mean! I struggle with this too. What I am noticing is that it is very different to give a tantruming child whatever she's asking for, than to give a child who has recovered from a tantrum something that she wants. As Irina said, think about times YOU've flipped out: When you are still upset, if somebody gives you what you're demanding, you'll take it grudgingly and not feel very happy, or maybe you'll even feel like it's just not good enough to satisfy you now that you're so upset. But after you've calmed down, being given that nice thing you wanted can really help you regain your equilibrium and remember that the other person is actually very kind to you.









Quote:

Either she could have a time out for not listening and then I'd make her some cinnamon toast, or she could go w/o toast and eat something else.
That's a pretty good solution, IMO. I disagree that the time out was "clearly not related to the meal"--the natural consequence of her misuse of the cinnamon toast was that you felt hurt and were not in the mood to make more cinnamon toast until you'd had a chance to recover; also, she needed to calm down to be ready for appropriate toast-related behavior.

I think you did pretty well, really. It's never easy to handle another person's freakout over something that seems to you like no big deal.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Making her anything other than not cinnamon toast is punishemnt, pure and simple.
That's interesting.

I just cannot see myself going back into the kitchen and getting out all the ingredients to make another batch of cinnamon toast. I just wouldn't choose to do that under most circumstances. I'd be sorry about the toast, and happy to point ds towards remaining foods he could eat. But failing to replacing the toast would not be something extra I did to punish ds.

Kind of like~if ds breaks a toy, am I punishing him if I fail to replace the toy?

This is always an interesting issue to me, because my own view changes based on small differences in attitude and intention.

Which is straying I suppose from our piece of cinnamon toast....


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
She is in the habit of wasting food. She does it a lot. She asks for something, and then doesn't eat it. Having processed it with you mamas helps me see the real issue wasn't the tantrum or the throwing away of a single piece of toast, but a habit of wasting food.

<snip>

Thanks for your gentle and honest responses. It's helped me process the situation. Being a mommy is so flipping hard sometimes. I often feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Mine's complicated too! I'm also seeing that part of it was that I just didn't feel like making more because it's time consuming. I just didn't feel like it! DH offered to make it but DD1 didn't want him to because "he puts too much cinnamon on it." So, it was all on me. Sometimes I just want to sip my coffee and be left alone!
Ahh, there it is!

I want to say how critical it has been for me as a parent to recognize and embrace this *very* dynamic in order to succeed without punishments.

You did something nice for dd. The effort was done, and you were embracing some much anticipated time alone. Now, suddenly dd is making choices that present the possibility of you giving up your alone time and devoting yourself to another effort on behalf of making her happy.

It's funny because when I read your original post this was the very feeling I wondered might be lurking under the surface. I think the impulse to somehow punish her sprang from this feeling that you were giving more than you really felt like giving~that she was taking time you really needed for yourself.

It is so important to recognize when we are in that moment. Because I find that failing to recognize and nurture our limits is often the source of anger and punitive decisions. The opposite is true~being ashamed that we have limits and believing we should ALWAYS put a child first is often the source of permissiveness, burn out, rage, and guilt.

When I hear that your dh was willing to make her toast and she still refused unless *you* made it~yeah, now i am totally getting where your feelings were on this.

Sometimes it's okay to just sit and drink your coffee, and I'm often amazed at how everything falls into place when I take this approach. If you just say "I'm having coffee now. I'm sorry to hear about the toast", and then give her a hug and go back to your book...see what happens. It probably won't be as dire as you imagine~and very often I find my level of empathy and genuine peacefulness towards my family goes up about 100% when I nurture my own limits.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Since she is 4.5, I would have told her should could have more cin toast, if she made it herself (supervised, of course).

Or, right after her sis took a bite of her toast, I would have cut that crust off. Or I would have switched pieces of toast, since it sounds like her sis hadn't touched hers yet.

I do think it turned into power struggle. But, sometimes we go there without meaning to. I know I sure do. The best thing to do is to reflect after the fact, like you are doing and try to think of alternatives if similar situations come up again.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

This thread made me crave cinamon toast.

So I went and made it.

No I have nothing constructive to add....


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## ibex67 (Feb 24, 2006)

I just want to thank the OP for posting this situation and all the wise mamas who replied. A lot of what was said was just what I needed to be reminded of.

thanks bunches

and i find myself extremely curious as to what folks' cinnamon toast recipes are as mine is ridiculously simple. [buttered toast sprinkled with cinnamon sugar.]


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Heartmama wrote:

Quote:

I find that failing to recognize and nurture our limits is often the source of anger and punitive decisions. The opposite is true~being ashamed that we have limits and believing we should ALWAYS put a child first is often the source of permissiveness, burn out, rage, and guilt.








When trying to figure out the natural consequence for my child's behavior, I find it's very important to consider how that behavior affected the way I and/or other people feel. I was GD'd myself as a kid, and when I misbehave now (for example, when I speak rudely to someone) I find that the consequence that really affects me most is realizing that SOMEONE FEELS BAD BECAUSE OF ME. It really motivates me to make amends and to avoid repeating the misbehavior. Despite that, I find myself resisting showing my feelings to my child because "I should be stronger than to let a little baby hurt my feelings" or "He's just a baby and can't be held responsible for my feelings." But he's a PERSON. He depends on me to show him how to be a good person, not to shield him from the responsibilities of personhood until some arbitrary point in the future. Of course I should avoid holding grudges against him or laying on heavy guilt trips, because that's good practice anyway and a young child does deserve more leeway than an adult. But it is okay for a mama to stand up for her limits and her feelings.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Prevention: In the moment after DD2 had taken a bite of DD1's toast, and the toast intended for DD2 was still untouched, I would have said, "Whoops! I guess THIS one is yours!" and switched the plates. Unless, that is, DD1 thinks it's very important to have her toast whole instead of cut in quarters.

I tried that. She wouldn't eat the toast because it had been cut into quarters. I felt like that was legit which is why I didn't try to convince her to eat that piece. Why didn't I feel like her sister's touching her toast was a legit reason to not want to eat it? Dunno. In the moment I just didn't.

I find GD works in theory so great. Then you're in a situation where "logical consequenses" lead to even worse logical consequenses -- hungry, tantruming child leads to more tantrums! What's a mama to do?!?! Just realize my home is the real world, not a parenting book. And it's OK to make mistakes so long as apolgies and forgiveness are exchanged later. I'm a black and white thinker, though. Which leads me to want to translate book theory into the real world. There are just too many grey areas in parenting to do that, though. I think one of you mamas already gave me similar advice.

Can I also just say that tantrums suck? Esp now that she's getting older. My tolerance for them is waning. She's mature so much of the time. So when she does have a tantrum I'm caught off guard, and I expect her to behave like someone who is older than she actually is because she so often does!

Y'all rock. My fears of posting here now seem unfounded and have evaporated.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Like I said, mistake #1 was feeding them in the living room in front of the TV instead of in the dining room. Mistake #2 was in how I communicated to her about trying to convince her to eat the toast her sister had taken a bite of. She obviously thought I was going to force her to eat that piece. I could have been more clear. But I couldn't change either of those, and it led to her tantrum. However she was responsible for choosing to have a tantrum and not listen to me or her dad.


When I have a situation like that (where it was my bad decision that lead to the meltdown/situation) I just do what I can to fix my mistake. ie. if my kid is having a tantrum in the store, when it's me who tried to sqeeze the trip in when it's really nap time- we leave the store and go home. In the case of the toast, I would have simply made another piece and sat the girls down at the kitchen table and sort of started over. I would probably talk to her about the screaming and throwing out the food a little later when the tension wasnt't so high, and she could really have a conversation. Trying to reason or impose consequences upon a child mid-tantrum doesn't usually go well








Of course there is the fact that much of the time I don't really realize how it all went down and the fact that it was really my fault until later in hindsight.







In which case, I chalk it up to learning what to do next time.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ibex67* 
I just want to thank the OP for posting this situation and all the wise mamas who replied. A lot of what was said was just what I needed to be reminded of.

thanks bunches

and i find myself extremely curious as to what folks' cinnamon toast recipes are as mine is ridiculously simple. [buttered toast sprinkled with cinnamon sugar.]










You're welcome!

OK -- my "recipe" -- it's not all that complicated. Just you gotta toast the bread and wait for that to happen. Then you gotta butter the toast. And I use real butter so it doesn't spread easily so you gotta wait 4 seconds while it softens on the hot toast. Then I sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on it. I don't have mine pre-mixed so all that extra work of sprinkling on two whole ingredients. Plus, everything had already been put away and I just didn't want to get it back out. See, quite an ordeal, huh?









Like someone suggested, I would have had her do it herself (supervised) but that would have taken even longer and made a mess which someone (ME!!) would have to clean up.

As I've realized here through my processing with you ladies, it all stemmed from me just not wanting to be bothered. I felt like, "I've made them food, they're watching TV, now I can sit and drink my coffee." But, Nooooooo, there had to be toast drama! I was disappointed and frustrated. But I'm the stinking grown up, so I'm stuck having to act like one. What a maturing process becoming a mama is.

Maybe I should make a poster for the house which says "It's not about the toast" as a reminder to chill out about stupid stuff.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I offered to make her whatever else she wanted, but no cinnamon toast. She refused to eat anything else.

See, it is punishment because she is NOT saying I am not going to do anything complicated, its ANYTHING else.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
That's interesting.

I just cannot see myself going back into the kitchen and getting out all the ingredients to make another batch of cinnamon toast.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Reading only the OP...

No idea how old your DDs are, but DD2 should be spoken to about respecting DD1's space, KWIM? I think you did ok for not knowing how best to handle it right then! But I probably would have had DD2 make DD1 more toast for "ruining" the first one and spoken to DD1 about how its ok for families to share germs with permission (if you so believe that), and not to waste food.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Maybe I should make a poster for the house which says "It's not about the toast" as a reminder to chill out about stupid stuff.









I LOVE this!!!!!


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
That's interesting.

I just cannot see myself going back into the kitchen and getting out all the ingredients to make another batch of cinnamon toast. I just wouldn't choose to do that under most circumstances. I'd be sorry about the toast, and happy to point ds towards remaining foods he could eat. But failing to replacing the toast would not be something extra I did to punish ds.

Kind of like~if ds breaks a toy, am I punishing him if I fail to replace the toy?

This is always an interesting issue to me, because my own view changes based on small differences in attitude and intention.

Which is straying I suppose from our piece of cinnamon toast....









I agree, I think it was the right way to handle it....she threw the toast away......so no more toast. what if that had been the last peice of bread? she had the offer of any other food.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I would have just made new toast since ds isn't really able to manage himself when hungry. BUT, I have been known to tell him that I will be happy to help him with whatever he is requesting after I am done my coffee







. He is pretty understanding about that now. I get him set up with whatever he needs (as you did) first and will always let my coffee get cold for something important, but otherwise I gently remind him that I need to drink my coffee first. And if I made cinnamon toast more than once a year, I'd premix the cinnamon and sugar and put it in an shaker jar







.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
I agree, I think it was the right way to handle it....she threw the toast away......so no more toast. what if that had been the last peice of bread? she had the offer of any other food.

Then she would understand that there was no more and it wasn't an option, not mom just being arbitrary







.

I remember when one of my brothers spit in the other's cereal so I have sympathy for the feeling of having one's food invaded.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

when i was younger i had a thing about germs (but i also had and have ocd so it might be different) and if someone touched my food with their mouth and tried to get me to eat it even if it wasnt the part that was touched i probably would have been sent into a panic.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Then she would understand that there was no more and it wasn't an option, not mom just being arbitrary
Apparently one moms 'arbitrary' is another moms self-preservation-coffee-time


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Then she would understand that there was no more and it wasn't an option, not mom just being arbitrary







.

I remember when one of my brothers spit in the other's cereal so I have sympathy for the feeling of having one's food invaded.

spitting in cereal is a whole lot different than a bite of toast.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Apparently one moms 'arbitrary' is another moms self-preservation-coffee-time


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Lesson #1 - It's not about the toast.

Lesson #2 - A shaker jar of cinnamon and sugar is essential to effective GD parenting.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Lesson #1 - It's not about the toast.

Lesson #2 - A shaker jar of cinnamon and sugar is essential to effective GD parenting.



























Analytical mind


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Apparently one moms 'arbitrary' is another moms self-preservation-coffee-time









I think mom's need to sit and relax is very important. I think it's important to recognize when we feel stretched to the limit and take care of ourselves when we do. I also think that often I get my self-preservation-coffee-time sooner by just going ahead and making the toast (using toast here as a metaphor for those things that really aren't a big a deal, when the real issue is my need to relax a bit/take care of myself). The power struggle over toast can just eliminate the possiblity of getting that time.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I think mom's need to sit and relax is very important. I think it's important to recognize when we feel stretched to the limit and take care of ourselves when we do. I also think that often I get my self-preservation-coffee-time sooner by just going ahead and making the toast (using toast here as a metaphor for those things that really aren't a big a deal, when the real issue is my need to relax a bit/take care of myself). The power struggle over toast can just eliminate the possiblity of getting that time.
Yes, I think you have to be in the situation to know which dynamic is surfacing~and we all learn by trial and error.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

OMG I have so freaking had it with my son throwing perfectly good food on the floor or in the trash and then screaming for a replacement. I have nothing else to offer except that this pushes my buttons like nothing else.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
OMG I have so freaking had it with my son throwing perfectly good food on the floor or in the trash and then screaming for a replacement. I have nothing else to offer except that this pushes my buttons like nothing else.

this will probably come off soudning wrong, but in those situations, I wouldn't give any replacement, he threw it out so he no longer has it, thats the natural consequence of throwing out perfectly good food.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

OMG I have so freaking had it with my son throwing perfectly good food on the floor or in the trash and then screaming for a replacement. I have nothing else to offer except that this pushes my buttons like nothing else.
How old is he?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
Her fears are real for her, but in her mind "nobody cared", which led to her flipping out...

I also see nothing wrong with that. I also often hear people, but still choose to do what I want...

I _really like_ how you boil everything down to respecting the rights and feelings of a child. Just the same way we would want our own rights and feelings to be regarded by others. It's natural for everyone to feel that way - and kids are people too.

I'm not arguing with how OP handled things, which I think was fine. She acted like a gentle parent.

But sometimes the hierarchy of parent-child relationships leave kids vulnerable to being treated as less equal or less important. It's easy for all of us to slip into that trap without meaning to. Your words made my mind instantly jar back into remembering that our kids' feelings and motivations matter too - and all of a sudden I saw a dozen new ways to have dealt with that particular scenario that my mind hadn't been open to a few seconds earlier.

That's why I love this place and you ladies







.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
She is in the habit of wasting food. She does it a lot. She asks for something, and then doesn't eat it. Having processed it with you mamas helps me see the real issue wasn't the tantrum or the throwing away of a single piece of toast, but a habit of wasting food.

My DH is in the habit of wasting food. I've been trying to show him that the consequence of this is we have less money for the stuff he wants. It is slow going but I'm trying to break a habit he's had for 3 decades hopefully it isn't as deeply ingrained in your DD.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I'm also seeing that part of it was that I just didn't feel like making more because it's time consuming. I just didn't feel like it! DH offered to make it but DD1 didn't want him to because "he puts too much cinnamon on it." So, it was all on me. Sometimes I just want to sip my coffee and be left alone!

When you offered DD the choice between something else and a time out at that point instead you could have worded the situation differently. You could have made it a choice between having something quick and easy now or waiting quietly and peacefully while you finished you coffee. The choices are exactly the same but one sounds like it is a punishment and the other is about respecting your need for quiet coffee time.

BTW after the whole thing had cooled down did you go back and discuss with DD how the morning could have gone better in a way that validated her anger but helped her see better options than throwing away the toast? An aunt always did this with me when I was a kid, and I do it with my nephew.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Then you're in a situation where "logical consequenses" lead to even worse logical consequenses -- hungry, tantruming child leads to more tantrums! What's a mama to do?!?!

You just answered your own question.

Let's take a child at school who is hungry. The teacher is explaining something to try to help her learn. But the child can't focus-- she is hungry. The teacher gets mad that she is not paying attention . . .gives the student a time-out. What has the child learned?

When your DD is having a tantrum, I suggest using the HALT method first (mentioned on this board). H-hungry A-angry L-lonely T-tired . These needs have to be addressed FIRST before any learning can take place. In other words, your DD was hungry, had a tantrum, you wanted to teach her a lesson, but she may have had a tantrum because she was hungry (and then still hungry), so it was next to impossible.

That being said, I have had SO MANY moments where I know DD needs something but I am overwhelmed, so I don't want to deal with it. Check out my YES challange thread.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi Aprildawn









I didn't read all the replies, just a few and I agree with most people that you should have made more toast. Also I think she may have freaked out because she was afraid for her dad's safety. After all, he wanted to eat germs--those teeny tiny little invisible bugs! How gross and scary! I bet her friend tells her "Germs are gross. Germs are bad. Germs make you sick!" all the time. She probably thought her dad had gone half crazy to want to eat them









~Nay


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## momma of monkeys (Aug 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
This thread made me crave cinamon toast.

So I went and made it.

No I have nothing constructive to add....

Me too







&







:


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:

OMG I have so freaking had it with my son throwing perfectly good food on the floor or in the trash and then screaming for a replacement. I have nothing else to offer except that this pushes my buttons like nothing else.

Quote:

How old is he?

He's 3. He's been doing this FOREVER. And FOREVER I have been gently and calmly responding by telling him, "Please don't throw food, it makes a mess that we have to clean up," and handing him a rag or broom as appropriate and guiding him through cleaning it up.

He does it less often than he used to, but it's still at least a couple times a week. I am REALLY NOT OKAY with food being wasted this way. Whether it's "age-appropriate" or not. (Which at 3 I really don't feel it is.)

Nothing seems to help. The only advice I get from friends/family is to spank him (which I'm not going to do) and the only advice I get on here is to gently remind him that we don't throw food and to involve him in cleaning up the mess. Which I've been doing. FOR YEARS. Clearly that approach is lacking somewhat in results.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
this will probably come off soudning wrong, but in those situations, I wouldn't give any replacement, he threw it out so he no longer has it, thats the natural consequence of throwing out perfectly good food.

That's certainly my inclination, but then you have the problem the OP describes, that you have a hungry, cranky kid on your hands whose mood isn't going to be improved any by NOT eating. It's a real catch-22.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
I still remember my mother's sayng (I am the older sister) - "When two people engage in power struggle, the one who is smarter is the one who is wrong"

That is just awesome. My dad always used to say, "Never argue with a fool, the spectators can't tell who is who."

I wonder, is the wasting of food age-related, or child-related . . . ?


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita* 
I wonder, is the wasting of food age-related, or child-related . . . ?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Just to clarify my position, I don't have a "clean your plate" philosophy AT ALL... it is okay to not want to finish some food. We'll save it if practical, if not it gets tossed. What I have a problem with, is DS deciding on a whim that the banana I sliced up for him is not acceptable because I served it in a bowl instead of on a plate, throwing the bowl across the room, and screaming, "More! More More! I need another one! I need another banana!" Etc. I mean on what planet is this even remotely acceptable behavior? I feel like if I give him another banana at that point, I have firmly acknowledged that it is totally okay for him to act this way. WHICH IT IS SO NOT. If I don't replace the banana, then I get an hour of screaming. Both options suck.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

That's certainly my inclination, but then you have the problem the OP describes, that you have a hungry, cranky kid on your hands whose mood isn't going to be improved any by NOT eating. It's a real catch-22.
Wednesday~

If reminding him isn't working I would give him just a few bites at a time. And then keep reminding him







If he wastes one bite of food that's manageable, right? If he's throwing food I'd assume he was done. If he says he wants more, give him another bite, and if he throws it, I'd say he's definitely done









You said he's only doing this a couple times a week now~so your approach is working!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I wouldn't make more cinnamon toast~my recipe for it is rather involved and once it's made I wouldn't go get everything out a second time--not even if it was my toast and it fell in the toilet







It would be grab-and-go second choices here.


Wanna share your recipe?









~Nay


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:

OT again...when I reply I see a line saying "Oh I see it" but not in the regular dialog box.







hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Point the way, please


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
I'm not sure I understand your question.

I'm asking because my DS is 3.5, and I find that he sometimes exhibits similar food-wasting behaviors . . . so I was wondering if it's kid-specific or maybe just an age-oriented phase . . . .


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita* 
I'm asking because my DS is 3.5, and I find that he sometimes exhibits similar food-wasting behaviors . . . so I was wondering if it's kid-specific or maybe just an age-oriented phase . . . .

My 36 yo DH wastes food IMO age isn't the issue.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
If reminding him isn't working I would give him just a few bites at a time. And then keep reminding him







If he wastes one bite of food that's manageable, right? If he's throwing food I'd assume he was done. If he says he wants more, give him another bite, and if he throws it, I'd say he's definitely done









That sounds reasonable enough, and it's what I did when the throwing phase was pretty much constant...it's not very practical in daily life though to dispense all of his food to him 2-3 bites at a time. And anyway that practice itself can be what sets him off--not getting as much quantity as he wants, or that he knows is available.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Wanna share your recipe?
I either make french cinnamon toast or cinnamon rolls.

I make the bread dough from scratch. For french cinnamon toast just bake in bread loaf pans, slice, cover in egg batter, cook in pan, dust with cinnamon and sugar or syrup.

For cinnamon rolls, I make a very damp bread dough. Let rise just once. Roll out into rectangle, spread lightly with softened butter, and cover with cinnamon. Roll up lengthwise. Cut into rounds, and put in well-buttered 8x8 pan (you want the rolls to puff up into one large roll, then break apart--much softer this way.)

For icing I use:

Sifted powdered sugar with just enough water to consistency. Then add several spoonfuls of softened cream cheese. Blend until smooth. Makes the BEST icing!

Needless to say, I definitely would not be willing to go through all of that again if a child trashed it.

....I'd probably be digging through the garbage can to rescue the roll.....


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

That sounds reasonable enough, and it's what I did when the throwing phase was pretty much constant...it's not very practical in daily life though to dispense all of his food to him 2-3 bites at a time. And anyway that practice itself can be what sets him off--not getting as much quantity as he wants, or that he knows is available.
You know I want to back up and suggest you put the trash cans out of reach.

Keep the floor swept and clean. Familiarize him with the 5-second-rule









I'd just rinse off things like apples and grapes that he throws down. Dust off crackers and sandwiches. Then save the only-a-few-bites-at-once rule for things that go "splat".

With this approach and continued reminders, I don't see how he could really waste much before he outgrows this messy phase.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Wednesday..

I'd definitely go with limiting his portions bit by bit. Instead of giving him an entire sliced banana, give him three pieces. If he wants more, he can have more. Also, maybe include him in preparing his food, so he feels it's done "correctly", the way he wants it, and will waste less? My nephew used to have similar behavior, and we did this:

We put his plates/cups/bowls/silverware (non-breakable!) on a lower floor cabinet. That way, he can choose what items he want to use for that specific meal. They would ask him which way he wanted his food cut (longways, shortways, upsidedownways, whathaveyou)... they gave him a decision regarding his meal with every step, and almost immediately the behavior stopped.


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

What a great thread! I have learned so much; both on the original topic and on the wonderful diversions! Thanks!

And I really needed to hear this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
You did something nice for dd. The effort was done, and you were embracing some much anticipated time alone. Now, suddenly dd is making choices that present the possibility of you giving up your alone time and devoting yourself to another effort on behalf of making her happy.

It's funny because when I read your original post this was the very feeling I wondered might be lurking under the surface. I think the impulse to somehow punish her sprang from this feeling that you were giving more than you really felt like giving~that she was taking time you really needed for yourself.

It is so important to recognize when we are in that moment. Because I find that failing to recognize and nurture our limits is often the source of anger and punitive decisions. The opposite is true~being ashamed that we have limits and believing we should ALWAYS put a child first is often the source of permissiveness, burn out, rage, and guilt.

When I hear that your dh was willing to make her toast and she still refused unless *you* made it~yeah, now i am totally getting where your feelings were on this.

Sometimes it's okay to just sit and drink your coffee, and I'm often amazed at how everything falls into place when I take this approach. If you just say "I'm having coffee now. I'm sorry to hear about the toast", and then give her a hug and go back to your book...see what happens. It probably won't be as dire as you imagine~and very often I find my level of empathy and genuine peacefulness towards my family goes up about 100% when I nurture my own limits.

Thanks, Heartmama....


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## sincitymama (Sep 20, 2003)

1) I have an almost 3 year old and this thread is AWSOME, thank you all. We haven't had any toast issues today but the power struggle thing at this age, ugh.

2) I am going to go make some cinnamon toast now. Yummy


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Keep the floor swept and clean. Familiarize him with the 5-second-rule









I'd just rinse off things like apples and grapes that he throws down. Dust off crackers and sandwiches. Then save the only-a-few-bites-at-once rule for things that go "splat".

With this approach and continued reminders, I don't see how he could really waste much before he outgrows this messy phase.









Doesn't work.







He refuses to eat anything that's fallen (or been thrown) on the floor. Screams for a different one.

And as for prevention--giving him a couple bites at a time--here's a very typical scenario: he wants the banana monkey-style, not sliced (so giving him a smaller portion doesn't really apply). So I give it to him half-peeled. He pulls the peel down farther and half the banana breaks off. Maybe not even onto the floor, but just onto the table. He goes ballistic that it's "broken" and he needs a different one.

You can apply this scenario to any food. It's not really about the banana, and I'm not omniscient enough to predict every tiny thing that's going to set him off. It still boils down to--either I replace the food to stop the screaming, thereby validating that his behavior is acceptable, or I deny him any more food and I guarantee that I continue to have an angry, grumpy, hungry kid on my hands.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

wednesday -- you're in a similar situation, just every day. what you're describing is definitely worse than what my older DD does. with her it's that sometimes she'll say she wants an apple, i'll cut it up and she'll eat 2 slices. if i don't want to eat the rest of the apple it gets wasted. she won't eat it once it browns. sometimes she'll eat the whole apple and ask for another one. i just never know.

it's a catch-22. if you replace the wasted food you validate the behavior. if you refuse to replace the food you have a hungry grumpy kid on your hands and the grumpy-ness is only going to get worse.

that's why i posted my original question. even though i realize some of the problem was just my preception of the situation, the end result was that i was stuck having to make that decision. prevention is great, but like you said, you're not omnicient and can't predict every little reaction your kid is going to have.


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## momma of monkeys (Aug 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I either make french cinnamon toast or cinnamon rolls.

I make the bread dough from scratch. For french cinnamon toast just bake in bread loaf pans, slice, cover in egg batter, cook in pan, dust with cinnamon and sugar or syrup.

For cinnamon rolls, I make a very damp bread dough. Let rise just once. Roll out into rectangle, spread lightly with softened butter, and cover with cinnamon. Roll up lengthwise. Cut into rounds, and put in well-buttered 8x8 pan (you want the rolls to puff up into one large roll, then break apart--much softer this way.)

For icing I use:

Sifted powdered sugar with just enough water to consistency. Then add several spoonfuls of softened cream cheese. Blend until smooth. Makes the BEST icing!

Needless to say, I definitely would not be willing to go through all of that again if a child trashed it.

....I'd probably be digging through the garbage can to rescue the roll.....

*Now that is some fancy cinnamon toast!! I do the simple kind...but I don't have the sugar and cinnamon mixed...but as a pp said, I should prolly put it together so I may continue to be GD...







*


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
It still boils down to--either I replace the food to stop the screaming...

Never, never, never.

I have a hard and fast rule: the minute dd's voice starts rising and turns angry, then she does NOT get whatever it is that she's wanting. Period. Because I've been unwaveringly consistent about this, she doesn't even bother tantruming, because she knows that doesn't work. Now, with Papa? Yup, she'll carry on like a banshee, because she knows he'll give in.

I think it's important to be kind and flexible in terms of carrying this out. For instance, I wouldn't say 'no - you get nothing to eat now'. But I would not budge out of my chair in the first place until she calms down and tells me in a nice voice what it is that she wants. Often, once we are able to communicate in a calm way, she'll be more open to what I'm trying to say, and I also try to be flexible about what she's trying to say. So if she wanted new toast because this piece had 'germs', I would talk to her about why that shouldn't be a worry to her, but then - so long as she remained calm and reasonable - I'd still offer to make her a new piece if she wanted.

But nuthin', no way, no how ever happens when she's being demanding or hysterical.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
.

I have a hard and fast rule: the minute dd's voice starts rising and turns angry, then she does NOT get whatever it is that she's wanting. Period. Because I've been unwaveringly consistent about this, she doesn't even bother tantruming, because she knows that doesn't work. Now, with Papa? Yup, she'll carry on like a banshee, because she knows he'll give in.

That's interesting, because I have a completely different approach with ds, and it basically has the same result. (well, both dp and I respond the same, and he doesn't scream or tantrum with either of us. Some whining, but not too much anymore.).
I do what he wants (if it's something that I'd be agreeable to in a calm situation), but tell him that speaking in a calm tone of voice will get him what he wants just as well, and that I'd prefer to hear that.

Who knows. Different personalities? probably. But also there is more than one path to travel to the same place.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Who knows. Different personalities? probably. But also there is more than one path to travel to the same place.
Very true! All you can do is watch your child and learn what works for them.

Quote:

Doesn't work. He refuses to eat anything that's fallen (or been thrown) on the floor. Screams for a different one.

Quote:

It still boils down to--either I replace the food to stop the screaming, thereby validating that his behavior is acceptable, or I deny him any more food and I guarantee that I continue to have an angry, grumpy, hungry kid on my hands.
When my ds was 3 he wouldn't have understood how to make a better choice if I gave him what he wanted when he screamed. He was a pretty direct child. If he screamed and I gave him something, then screaming worked.

No amount of explaining afterwards why he shouldn't scream to get what he wanted would have made sense to him at 3 years old. I *did* give him what he wanted if he screamed, and that was that. Life was happening "Right Now" at 3. Either screaming worked or did not work~based on the immediate sequence of events after he screamed. He could not motivate himself by after-the-fact conversations with me. That was *my* idealization of him. But it wasn't his reality.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
if you replace the wasted food you validate the behavior. if you refuse to replace the food you have a hungry grumpy kid on your hands and the grumpy-ness is only going to get worse..

Here's what I wonder, bearing in mind that every child is different, and that the same child will become different at different ages and stages.

Usually if dd is grumpy about some trivial thing - like food, it's not at all about the thing. It's about something else entirely, that she's having trouble verbalizing or even recognizing. Nearly always, it's something to do with needing more attention, or needing to feel more secure in some way.

Sometimes I can even say it outloud for her, and just the realization of it between the two of us can change everything. For example, she was getting fussy and grumpy about a computer game she was playing while I worked at home. I kept trying to help her out and reassure her but she was only getting more irritable. Finally I set my work down, pulled her into my lap, looked her in the eye and said "Do you just need ALL of the attention?" She looked kind of surprised, broke out a big smile and nodded. Then the two of us laughed and played. After a few minutes, she was able to return to her game.

So I wonder if the reason some of these tantrums are so incosolable is because the answer isn't more toast or bananas cut a certain way. Maybe it's more along the lines of sweeping up dc in your arms and saying "What should we do together today, you and I?"


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Never, never, never.

I have a hard and fast rule: the minute dd's voice starts rising and turns angry, then she does NOT get whatever it is that she's wanting. Period. Because I've been unwaveringly consistent about this, she doesn't even bother tantruming, because she knows that doesn't work.









:

My experience is probably not that relevant to this thread. DS tantrumed for three hours last night. He threw himself on the floor, against walls, screamed, tore at me and DH, screamed, ripped off his clothes, and screamed some more. It took going for a ride in the car at midnight to finally settle him down. We are told by folks knowledgeable about childhood development that his behavior is well outside the scope of typical. We are trying to get help for him. For us.

I just thought maybe someone would have some new suggestions to address the particular scenario in this thread, other than "just give him a few bites" or "don't reward the screaming." Thanks anyway.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

wednesday;6651552What I have a problem with said:


> I am ok with ds deciding not to eat one food, and wanting me to fix him something else. That's cool, I can do that. But what really bothers me is when he HAS a banana (or whatever), and will NOT eat it, but insists that he needs a *different* banana.
> I just say no (unless it's something that I'd like to eat anyways). But that's usually the end of it for us. So I don't really have any advice for you.
> Just wanted to say that I am soooooo easygoing with food, but that particular issue just irritates the heck out of me, too. lol


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

wednesday -- i think your experience is definitely outside of typical. my own older DD is outside of typical too. for awhile i thought she might have a sensory issue (she touches people and things more than normal, she smells things, is still sucking her fingers at 4.5, chews on and bites her clothes, toys, etc.). it affects her relationships with other people as well as our ability to participate in activities meant for kids her age because she does things like smelling, sucking, biting. it was bad enough i brought it up with our doctor. she told me that it sounds like DD1 is "normal" but falls on a far end of the bell curve. she explained we'd just have to work harder to teach her what's appropriate.

over the past six months i've seen an improvement in all of those behaviors. but just now she was chewing on the sleeve of a brand new dress i bought her and spent $20 because it was just so darn cute and she loved it. she was chewing the sleeve!!!!! that has nothing to do with this thread, though...

i'm sorry about your DS's behavior. i hope you can find some help. as exhausting as it is for me to deal with my DD1's food wasting and her freak outs i think they're not as bad as what you've got going on. good luck finding some help.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I just thought maybe someone would have some new suggestions to address the particular scenario in this thread, other than "just give him a few bites" or "don't reward the screaming." Thanks anyway.








Sorry things are so rough right now.

It wasn't clear to me in your posts if you had consistently tried another approach. I thought you were saying that until now, you gave him what he wanted so he wouldn't scream. It's hard to know from a post, kwim? On the one hand I'd say "If this was the first night you didn't give him what he wanted, it wouldn't surprise me that he screamed for three hours and threw a violent fit in protest. He doesn't want to accept this new limit". On the other hand maybe you are saying you *have* consistently refused to reward screaming, and yet he is throwing 3 hour violent tantrums anyway. I'm sorry, it's hard to know what a person means at times. I'm still not clear on it, but I'm sending you supportive vibes


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

No, it's been a consistent limit, which is what made this thread particularly interesting to me. Because I have felt at times that being consistent with the limit was very much in conflict with trying to get his physical needs met so that his behavior did not continue to be driven by discomfort. In my experience it really can become a downward spiral.

So--even though in the scenario described I would not get him another banana in response to his screaming demands--if I felt the underlying issue was hunger, I might wait until there's somewhat of a lull in the screaming, and casually hand him some crackers. That's the best I've come up with to try to address the real problem, without overtly rewarding the unacceptable behavior. Even that response only developed after many many months of such incidents, since it seemed like calmly and consistently ignoring the tantrums sure as heck wasn't "working."

P.S. to aprildawn -- sorry for hijacking your thread


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Have you tried an elimination diet?


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Have you tried an elimination diet?

He's been off dairy for a couple years, since we figured out very early on that dairy consumption made him completely mental. We recently expanded that to wheat, soy, corn, eggs, and preservatives/dyes. And we finally are getting some help with having actual allergy testing done to see if that reveals any less common allergens. Since obviously I can't just feed him NOTHING and see what happens, kwim? I do feel very strongly that he has major food issues but it hasn't been until recently that others outside our family have started to acknowledge that his behavior is extreme, and maybe just maybe it is not simply the result of totally incompetent parenting.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

Here's how I make cinnamon toast. (Also happens to be low-fat, but who cares about that







) It's also the Very Quick version.

Toast slice of bread.
Smear honey on bread.
Sprinkle cinnamon on honey and bread.

Yum!

It makes me crazy when my son (almost 4) wastes food too--for me it's like flushing money down the toilet. I'm incredibly careful about not wasting food. The only giving small portions thing has really worked for me. He would pour the whole box of cereal and whole carton of milk in his bowl if I let him, so I set up a little assembly line for him, with one measuring cup of cereal, a little pitcher of milk, another little cup of banana slices, and bowl and spoon. He makes his own, which he really loves.

That said, I just made a very nice loaf of bread which included a couple of his leftover bowls of cereal that I saved for this purpose in the fridge...oh well. (I *really* don't want to waste food!)


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
i thought she might have a sensory issue (she touches people and things more than normal, she smells things, is still sucking her fingers at 4.5, chews on and bites her clothes, toys, etc.).

My DD is the same age and is VERY oral as well. She is always chewing on her hair, her hands, something . . .I did wean her when she was around 2.5 yrs. I am almost certain that she would have wanted to continue nursing (at this age) had I not done that . . .but I don't regret that I weaned her either (I just couldn't do it anymore). I WISH I could have been the kind of person to keep going, though.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
it hasn't been until recently that others outside our family have started to acknowledge that his behavior is extreme, and maybe just maybe it is not simply the result of totally incompetent parenting.



















I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
He's been off dairy for a couple years, since we figured out very early on that dairy consumption made him completely mental. We recently expanded that to wheat, soy, corn, eggs, and preservatives/dyes. And we finally are getting some help with having actual allergy testing done to see if that reveals any less common allergens. Since obviously I can't just feed him NOTHING and see what happens, kwim? *I do feel very strongly that he has major food issues* but it hasn't been until recently that others outside our family have started to acknowledge that his behavior is extreme, and maybe just maybe it is not simply the result of totally incompetent parenting.









wednesday, when I first read your post about the three hour tantrums, I immediately thought *food allergies.* If you think it's food---my money is on your instincts. My oldest has a dairy allergy, and he would absolutely rage...._scary_ rage for hours







. Break doors out of their doorframes at age four







I felt like an incompetent, horrible mother. I also felt at the end of my rope---like I wasn't going to be able to keep it together for another day.

When we eliminated all dairy, we also began Feingold and eliminated ALL preservatives, colors, and flavors. Within about a week or so, I had an amazingly different child. It was stunning how his behavior changed. You don't have to feed ds nothing to do the elimination diet, though---have you ever read, Is This Your Child by Dr. Doris Rapp? If not, get it







She has so much info in there about elim. diets, etc. BTW, are y'all doing NO dairy? We had to eliminate ALL dairy.

I'd love to talk more w/you about this....we could possibly start a thread in the Allergy subforum or heck, even in here







I also know WuWei's child has dairy issues and she has posted many helpful links---you might want to PM her and ask or do a search in here about food and tantrums.

Hang in, mama


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## MizLiz (Jan 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys* 
Since she is 4.5, I would have told her should could have more cin toast, if she made it herself (supervised, of course).

Or, right after her sis took a bite of her toast, I would have cut that crust off. Or I would have switched pieces of toast, since it sounds like her sis hadn't touched hers yet.

I do think it turned into power struggle. But, sometimes we go there without meaning to. I know I sure do. The best thing to do is to reflect after the fact, like you are doing and try to think of alternatives if similar situations come up again.









: That's what I'd do... we try to diffuse the situation before anyone gets really upset (and with my dd there are definately signs if she is heading towards a meltdown) and if our compromise offer isn't working then I usually go along with her, but have her help 'fix' the situation... for us the important thing is to try and work with dd (who is 4.5) before she gets very upset about something that isn't really worth a meltdown. I would have offered to cut off the contaminated toast, trade with her sibling, then help her make a fresh piece. It is easier to do this _before_ anyone gets really upset - that way your child will feel like you are validating her feelings, and you don't feel like you are being, somehow, manipulated or caving.

It is, of course, easy to analyze this type of situation when you aren't going through it at the time... good for you for thinking about how to make this type of thing better next time


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
have you ever read, Is This Your Child by Dr. Doris Rapp? If not, get it







She has so much info in there about elim. diets, etc. BTW, are y'all doing NO dairy? We had to eliminate ALL dairy.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I just checked and my library has it so I will go check it out today. Yes, we've eliminated every trace of dairy and wheat--although we were confused at first about oats so he had those some, but no more.

I have started a couple threads about what we're dealing with in the Special Needs forum--this is the most recent one.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
P.S. to aprildawn -- sorry for hijacking your thread









Definitely no hijacking on your part. I feel like it was totally related to the conversation. Plus, it's good to hear from all the other moms that there are kids with similar issues out there. I find some small comfort in that. Good luck to you.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MizLiz* 







: That's what I'd do... we try to diffuse the situation before anyone gets really upset (and with my dd there are definately signs if she is heading towards a meltdown) and if our compromise offer isn't working then I usually go along with her, but have her help 'fix' the situation... for us the important thing is to try and work with dd (who is 4.5) before she gets very upset about something that isn't really worth a meltdown. I would have offered to cut off the contaminated toast, trade with her sibling, then help her make a fresh piece. It is easier to do this _before_ anyone gets really upset - that way your child will feel like you are validating her feelings, and you don't feel like you are being, somehow, manipulated or caving.

It is, of course, easy to analyze this type of situation when you aren't going through it at the time... good for you for thinking about how to make this type of thing better next time










Yeah. The whole head it off before things escalate is something I try too. I actually feel proud of myself when I discover a way to head off freak outs and tantrums. But sometimes these sorts of behaviors just seem to come out of the blue! And, like I realized earlier in the thread, I just didn't *feel like* making a new piece of toast, so I tried to convince her to eat the tainted toast which caused the whole tantrum. It came down to the fact that I just didn't feel like it and she wouldn't accept DH's version of the toast. As a mom we have to do so many things we don't feel like doing (most recently cleaning puke up all over my house since DD2 is sick with a tummy thing







: ) that every once in awhile I run out of steam, refuse to do whatever it is I need to be doing, and it causes a big upset!

That brings us back to the catch-22. Do you take care of your own feelings? If I really just don't want to make the toast maybe it's because I need some recharging time, even if it's just 15 minutes to drink my coffee. Or do I continue to serve my family when I'm out of gas to head off potential tantrums? What are the costs and benefits of each choice? It's tough.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I am in flame-gear too

I see nothing wrong with how you handled it.

only i think you handled it better than me -- i would NOT have made her most toast, nor given her a CHOISE on the 2nd breaskfast -- i would have put her at the table and giving her something, if she refused that, she would have waited untill i was ready to make either morning snack or lunch for the whole family.

Waesting food is not ok, nor is irgonoring direct instructions from theparent, nor is -- imo -- treating her younger sib that way.

and -- again imo --if mommy already made toast once, and there is nothign wrong with it, then momma should not feel bad about "not wanting to make more" you are a momma not a salve, maid or personal chef --you take care of a family as a whole, you do not need to cater to every whim. You didn't feel like making more, the toast was fine, so there is no reason to feel bad. DD made a choice to behave as she knows she is not to and to activly not listen when throwing out food.

JMO

you did fine, and you don't need to feel bad about not wanting to do extra work.

As I said -- you were a lot mroe GD than I would have been.

A


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I don't usually jump into threads that have gone on for this long! But this time I really want to. I did sit and read every post first though.







I am with Heart on this one (as usual) and would not have made another peice of toast.

FWIW, though something you might want to work on incorporating into your life for future incidents though, April - we try to get our kids to sort of take a "pause" before following through with drastic actions -- and talk it out. So, for instance, on her way to the trash can with the toast, I would have intercepted and said, _"Hold it. Pause for 2 minutes and listen. I'm only using words, and then when we unpause -- you can still throw it away if you still choose to."_ That gives a chance to disscuss more reasonable possiblities (i.e. -- trade toasts with Daddy, etc.) This works for us with our kids, in highly charged moments, but it took some time and practise to become a real tool in the toolkit, kwim? The kids had to get used to it, and learn to trust that its in their best interest.

Also -- occasional "do overs" are helpful too. I don't like to do a lot of do-overs, because they will take over your life. But in this situation, later in the day when you wanted an "out," I might have just said, "_You know dd -- our morning got off to a lousy start. Let's start all over."_ Maybe. I'm iffy on this one though!

As for the chewing on the clothing thing -- I had to throw away all my older son's shirts from his 4th year of life. Normally, clothes get handed down. But those just got eaten! LOL. We mostly solved it though, by making very sturdy bead necklaces together that he could wear and chew on instead. I would prompt him to use his beads whenever his sleeve or collar was heading toward his mouth! (Satin ribbon can be used for the necklaces, with rubber, plastic, or wooden beads -- depending on what you are comfortable with.) Beads are good for the figits too, and nail biting, and even excessive penis touching in public places (not that you'll encounter that!)


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I don't usually jump into threads that have gone on for this long! April - we try to get our kids to sort of take a "pause" before following through with drastic actions -- and talk it out. So, for instance, on her way to the trash can with the toast, I would have intercepted and said, _"Hold it. Pause for 2 minutes and listen. I'm only using words, and then when we unpause -- you can still throw it away if you still choose to."_

Also -- occasional "do overs" are helpful too. I don't like to do a lot of do-overs, because they will take over your life. But in this situation, later in the day when you wanted an "out," I might have just said, "_You know dd -- our morning got off to a lousy start. Let's start all over."_ Maybe. I'm iffy on this one though!

As for the chewing on the clothing thing -- I had to throw away all my older son's shirts from his 4th year of life. Normally, clothes get handed down. But those just got eaten! LOL. We mostly solved it though, by making very sturdy bead necklaces together that he could wear and chew on instead. I would prompt him to use his beads whenever his sleeve or collar was heading toward his mouth! (Satin ribbon can be used for the necklaces, with rubber, plastic, or wooden beads -- depending on what you are comfortable with.) Beads are good for the figits too, and nail biting, and even excessive penis touching in public places (not that you'll encounter that!)

I can't believe this thread is as long as it is, either! Definitely the longest one I've ever started. Obviously I hit on something many of us experience as we try to take everything into account before and when we discipline our kids. For me it's one of the key part of GD, to know the child, prevent problems in the first place, and respond to problem behavior in a way that helps your child grow in an ability to use self discipline. Which leads me to...

I love the idea of a pause. It's exactly what I wanted to happen, but my approach was way off. DH and I were yelling "STOP!! Don't throw it away!!" so we could be heard above her own screaming. So, everyone in the house is yelling. Crazy. If we had a "code word" or a way to communicate that we're calling a time out (in the sporting sense of the word) before we make any rash decisions, I think she'd be very responsive to that.

We have do-overs a lot. Mostly when she uses a nasty tone of voice with me. She'll say, "OK, Mommy. Let's start over." sometimes i let her, sometimes i tell her that it's not ok to start over. it just depends on the situation.

As for the chewing -- I bought a package of straws and I give her one when I notice she's chewing a lot. A bead necklace is a great idea too. She's super sensory/oral/touching/kinestetic.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

We do lots of "rewinds" and "pauses"...we're kind of like a VCR around here







And with my older two, we do deep breaths. I love it when I see my almost 7 yo calming himself down with deep breathing







They do eventually start getting it









It can also be particularly helpful to be playful about stuff---like I'll do something in reverse or speedy (fast forward)...Sometimes it really helps to be playful and joke about things to help de-escalate.


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