# I want to cry, I want to give up, I dont know what to do.



## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I have four children. I've always believed in gentle discipline, never spanked etc. My first two children were very sensitive ones. If they even suspected you might be less than happy with them for something, they were crushed and would do whatever to make it up. I have to actively try NOT to show how upset I get if dd, for example, breaks something I really like, becuase she's already crying about it. My oldest ds cried when other boys stepped on bugs, because they were hurting the bugs.

My middle ds has had the same raising. But he seems to really and truyly enjoy hurting others. This goes beyond hitting, this goes beyond being angry. I could understand him hitting his siblings when he's angry. It still wouldnt be ok and we'd address it, but in a small child, its understandable to deal with frustrations that way.

But this. I cant understand it and Ive run out of ideas for dealing with it. Not only does he hit, kick, spit at people, pinch them, scratch them etc he does it for no reason whatsoever. He also takes others toys or books or pictures and rips them up. If he can dunk dd's teddybear in the bathtub or yank a painting out of her hand just as she's proudly showing it to someone and rip it to shreds, he does so with a huge grin on his face, looking around at everyone like he's so proud. When we clip his nails, he has to be held down, he screams, becuase he knows his scratching wont hurt now. He'll immediatley after try to scratch someone and be upset that it doesnt work.

Today, within an hour of waking up he hit his baby brother, locked his sister ina closet, jumped on me HARD on my stomach etc. the baby had some newspapers he was carrying around and ds ran from across the room to grab them away from him and rip them up, throw them down then laugh about it while the baby cried! His brother and sister are seldom the ones who start these things. Most often they arent even interatcting with him at all, he goes out of his way to walk across the room and hurt them, physically or emotionally buy taking/tearing thier stuff. And you should see the gleam in his eyes when he finds an object to hit with, like a stick. Every toy bat, every piece off the vaccum cleaner etc has to be hidden. Im seriously afraid that he will, eventually, hurt one of his siblings seriously, like go to the hospital hurt them.

We have tried talkingto him, tried telling him how the other person feels, dh uses time outs, I have had horrible moments when I have smacked him. I know its worse than useless and makes the situation worse, but after days on end of doing nothing but intervening in his attacks on others, sometimes I have less than perfect moments. I mean, I dont hit him hard or repeatedly. But Ive like shoved him off of his sister or brother and he stumbles and falls or something like that. I dont WANT to do that. Ive tried giving him attention when he's being good. But seriously, some days his attacks are so frequent,that I cant do ANYTHING else, I cant take two min to go pee!

He does whatever he can think of to make others cry, then laughs about it. I want to curl up into a ball right now and cry myself. I dont know what to do to fix this. Its one thirty in the afternoon and Ive had nothing to eat or drink today. Ive gotten up three times just typing this. I feel like all our interaction has become negative, focusing on this.

Is it becuase he isnt getting enough attention? Should I be involving a child psychologist? I mean seriously. What am I missing? Im so, so tired! Im emotionally exhausted over this and my other children are afraid of him. Even when he does try to hug someone, they shy away!

the irony is, when he wants to be sweet, he is the most cuddly, snuggly kid Ive got! I just dont understand whats going on. Why he seems to enjoy making others cry. Does he just not have empathy yet? He's four. Seems like he should be well past the terrible twos by now. I am so open to suggestions.

eta: he isnt a total monster. The other day when he shoved baby off the bed, I had a moment of real and total panic and it showed and the baby was screaming not the im annoyed cry but the Im truly terrified and in pain cry and ds did get upset, he cried too and he hugged the baby and said he was sorry. So he does have empathy. That makes me feel better. But he went right back to his old behaviors as soon as the moment passed.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

have you considered a change to his diet or using natural supplements. Your body having a hard time digesting certain things, or having a deficiency in a certain vitamin (which is different for some individuals as they may not absorb the vitamins as well as the next person) are all things that can cause behavioral issues. yeah, sometimes its a discipline issue, but in this case I would consider that it might be more of a health issue. JMO!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Gosh, it sounds as if he's out of control.That must be very scary for both of you. Can you get him in some activities that keep him busy and separate him from his siblings? Gym, karate, anything that might get some of the energy channeled into better places.

Your other kids deserve a safe and peaceful home. The baby needs to feel secure. If you can't get through to your son soon, I'd have him evaluated by doctors and counselors. Maybe he has allergies that make him aggressive. Be sure to get rid of any food colors in his diet. That red #40 is a bad one for making kids mean and hyper.

Good luck.


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## ap mom (Dec 23, 2006)

I'm sure you'll get ideas and advice from the other wise mamas here, but I couldn't read and not respond. This sounds really hard, and I can hear the exasperation in your words. Sending you hugs and good thoughts and hoping someone can help in a more tangible way.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

I have to go out in a bit and can't write a long reply right now... but can you tell us whether or not he seems to be on track with the rest of his development?


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## Moonchild77 (Apr 15, 2008)

what last pp says: might it be something "not just okay"with him?
Not that I say it is!!!
but, I thought immediatly about something I read in the Discipline book, Sears, that it may that he has a disorder, behaviour or ...?


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Wow, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I don't have any advice for you but bringing your son to counseling/psychiatrist sounds good.

Some of the mothers think that it could be the diet hes been eating, or the #40 red (which I have no clue about and am going to google about it) that makes children hyper and etc.

I just wanted to tell you that as I hope you don't blame yourself and feel that you're a bad mother. I guess sometimes things are beyond our control but we all can always hope/pray for the best.

In meantime, hang in there and see if you could get your friends over to offer you some moral/physical support.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

A few thoughts....

First of all I would really look at diet. A lot of the 'crazy out of control behavior' posts with small kids very often end with a dietary allergy being identified.

Second, sleep. Does he get enough?

Third, this is just a general observation I will make. It has stood out to be over the years that a certain dynamic emerges with a younger child in a family where an older child (or children) are notably calm and traditionally 'easy' well behaved kids. Along comes a third or fourth child, and this one seems to struggle, almost unconsciously, with a temptation to get attention, or stand out, or be different. And sometimes the most immediate way to fulfill this need is to indulge in a lot of attention getting type stuff.
I have seen this happen enough that I do think it is a real and true 'issue' for younger siblings of easy and well behaved older siblings. They are more tempted to adopt a role in the family of being 'troublemaker' because it is a role they can totally claim as their own!

Lastly, I would ask just how much exercise is he getting? Some children need FAR more exercise than typical children their own age. These are kids that need to run until they practically drop, in order to finally calm down and focus. And if a child like that does not burn off copious amounts of energy they will become very impulsive and erratic in their behavior until they DO get totally worn out.

I know a mom who has a three year old that literally goes *jogging* with her every night. The child has so much energy that he will jog a tremendous distance without slowing down or stopping, totally loving the whole thing. Only after a long jog is he calm and focused enough to behave like a typical 3 year old. Not many 3 year olds need such intense exercise but some of them do, and the one's who need and don't get it are extremely difficult to manage behavior-wise if they don't get out all of that energy.

Just some thoughts--and please know you should NOT feel guilty. Every child is different. Your third child demands far more than the other three combined--and that isn't your fault. It is just how he is wired. The key is to find out why he is wired this way, what triggers can be identified, what needs can be better met, and go from there.


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## Mooney (May 30, 2004)

I'm in a similar situation. My 4.5yo boy is nearly as destructive and hurtful as you describe your son to be. He frequently hurts his little sister and me (punches--pummels!, kicks, pinches, throws things, etc), usually in situations where he's frustrated or angry, but not always. We have had to change the way we spend time with at least one close friend because he was hurting the friend, too.

I've also noticed that he's totally addicted to anything sweet (from chocolate to dried mango), whenever it is available he sneaks around to find it and eat it until it is gone. So though we eat fairly well (whole/traditional), the diet is a place I should examine...he's one of those kids who has a fairly narrow range of acceptable foods, so I am wary of initiating a major change. What I'd like to do is the GAPS diet. (http://gapsdiet.com/)

I am going to expand the amount of activities he's involved in, and in my recent planning I've focused on physical things (swimming, karate, outdoor/nature classes).

I've also wondered if something like craniosacral therapy or another energy healing therapy would be useful in helping him to find balance and more self control. We try to encourage him to take deep breaths (which he mostly refuses to do, but it helps me to model doing it!).

I can't imagine it feels good to be them, so out of control. Keep at it. I hope you find a path that leads out of the woods soon!


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

My first thought was a food issue also. When my littlest sis was a child she used to have these episodes where she'd go out of control with rages. One time my other sis and I had to hold her down b/c she got out of her car seat and was screaming and trying to open the car door while my mom was driving. She'd yell that she hated all of us, and there was probably some physical aggression too. Then she'd calm down and feel bad about how she behaved. These kinds of episodes were not infrequent. Then when food allergies got some press in the mid-80's, my mom asked her ped about it b/c it sounded just like her, but the ped didn't believe in food allergies. Sadly nothing was done, now well into adulthood my sister has been diagnosed with severe Celiac disease, so an accurate assessment and treatment might have helped her be more centered and in control.

This site might have some useful info. I also agree with the PP about the need for exercise and sleep. But your tone in your post indicated that you feel this is something out of the ordinary, and food tolerance issues can really affect neurology & behavior, so I'd start there if you haven't already.

Best wishes--hope you find what your son needs!


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## fritz (Nov 9, 2005)

I don't think he truly enjoys hurting others...I think he truly enjoys getting an extreme reaction from others. Big difference. But still really hard to deal with.

In the meantime, while you're looking into getting him into more physical activities, and figuring out his diet, would you consider getting locks for the bedroom doors of your other children? Something with a master key so that you could always get in, but something that would keep your middle child out so your other kids had a safe space to retreat to? Or even a lock on just one bedroom door, and letting your other kids stay there? Just long enough so you can take care of yourself. You need food and drink and bathroom breaks and sleep! If you don't take care of yourself, it's exponentially harder to take care of anyone else, especially under these challenging circumstances.

Is he at all open to becoming Mommy's helper? As in, you have him fetching/carrying, anything at all he's physically capable of, to help you (it gives him something constructive to do, it lessens your burden, and it fills his time so he has less opportunity to engage in negative-attention-seeking behaviors).

I'd also recommend trying to fill his love cup as much as possible (I know you've got 4 kids and it's super hard right now) and catch him being good. The more positive interactions you have, the better you'll all feel.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
A few thoughts....

Third, this is just a general observation I will make. It has stood out to be over the years that a certain dynamic emerges with a younger child in a family where an older child (or children) are notably calm and traditionally 'easy' well behaved kids. Along comes a third or fourth child, and this one seems to struggle, almost unconsciously, with a temptation to get attention, or stand out, or be different. And sometimes the most immediate way to fulfill this need is to indulge in a lot of attention getting type stuff.
I have seen this happen enough that I do think it is a real and true 'issue' for younger siblings of easy and well behaved older siblings. They are more tempted to adopt a role in the family of being 'troublemaker' because it is a role they can totally claim as their own!

Lastly, I would ask just how much exercise is he getting? Some children need FAR more exercise than typical children their own age. These are kids that need to run until they practically drop, in order to finally calm down and focus. And if a child like that does not burn off copious amounts of energy they will become very impulsive and erratic in their behavior until they DO get totally worn out.

I know a mom who has a three year old that literally goes *jogging* with her every night. The child has so much energy that he will jog a tremendous distance without slowing down or stopping, totally loving the whole thing. Only after a long jog is he calm and focused enough to behave like a typical 3 year old. Not many 3 year olds need such intense exercise but some of them do, and the one's who need and don't get it are extremely difficult to manage behavior-wise if they don't get out all of that energy.

Just some thoughts--and please know you should NOT feel guilty. Every child is different. Your third child demands far more than the other three combined--and that isn't your fault. It is just how he is wired. The key is to find out why he is wired this way, what triggers can be identified, what needs can be better met, and go from there.

I think this may really be it! Becuase he'll hit and sometimes he's already looking around for our reactions before he's even completed it. And his sister is the most calm, complient child you'd ever want to know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fritz* 
I don't think he truly enjoys hurting others...I think he truly enjoys getting an extreme reaction from others. Big difference. But still really hard to deal with.

In the meantime, while you're looking into getting him into more physical activities, and figuring out his diet, would you consider getting locks for the bedroom doors of your other children? Something with a master key so that you could always get in, but something that would keep your middle child out so your other kids had a safe space to retreat to? Or even a lock on just one bedroom door, and letting your other kids stay there? Just long enough so you can take care of yourself. You need food and drink and bathroom breaks and sleep! If you don't take care of yourself, it's exponentially harder to take care of anyone else, especially under these challenging circumstances.

Is he at all open to becoming Mommy's helper? As in, you have him fetching/carrying, anything at all he's physically capable of, to help you (it gives him something constructive to do, it lessens your burden, and it fills his time so he has less opportunity to engage in negative-attention-seeking behaviors).

I'd also recommend trying to fill his love cup as much as possible (I know you've got 4 kids and it's super hard right now) and catch him being good. The more positive interactions you have, the better you'll all feel.

YEs, he loves to help cook! ANd when he's occupied/busy we dont have near the issues!

THanks to everyone who posted! I cant beleive I havent considered diet. IT made a huge diffrence with my oldest, I had totally forgotten that! (In my defense it was 15 years ago!) But he went through a rough period and eliminating the junk from his diet helped tremendously! I try not to bring much junk into the house, but my fil does. I dont always know when he's had it.

I think, just looking at it and keeping track of incidents, Im seeing it happens about 1000x more often when he has asked for attention and not gotten it (told no or wait or something). So, my job now is to give him loads of attention when he's NOT melting down!


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## auburnmamma (Dec 15, 2007)

I too have a son (almost 6) who partially fits this description. We know we have food issues in the family (3ds, youngest of whom started presenting with blood in his stool at 4 d due to food intolerance, middle ds has eczema and asthma) it stood to reason that the other would have food stuff too. today was day 1 of gluten free and dairy free for everyone in the family. BIG change for the older 2 boys. Gluten and casein have a similar chemical structure as opiates and thus bind to the same receptors...wow... what is that going to do for us? run!

check out this site for more info http://www.gfcfdiet.com/TheBigFAQ's.htm


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

First of all, giant hugs to you, mama. You have such a hard job right now, and I'm sorry your family is going through this. I'm equally sorry for your little boy, because he must be hurting a BIG way to behave this way all the time.









I think the extra attention and asking him to help will be a big help to you. My mom was an elementary school teacher for 20+ years (as well as a mom of two mischevious girls), and she swears by making the "troublemakers" your #1 helper. She always talks about how the teachers would warn her about certain "bad" kids coming into her class, and she would immediately enlist those kids as her helpers for the year. She said that, if they had a job to do or felt like they had a specific purpose, they were 99% of the time very well behaved and kind. It was when they got bored that they caused problems.

I do think you might consider counseling and also evaluation by a doctor, just to make sure his development is on target and there are no health problems that are causing him distress. Please update us in the coming weeks to let us know how things are going.


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## Anna's Lovey (Dec 24, 2008)

Sounds a lot like my cousin. He was a little rascal just like that. he was diagnosed with a mild form of asperger syndrome. He's super smart and, now that he's in a special school, actually doing really well.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

food issues are the first place to look. my oldest had definite food issues and sometimes it was just hell trying to keep her from destroying things and hitting me and her then baby sister.

another idea a friend of mine clued me into, she was reading a book i cant remember the name of, was that some kids hit and stuff because they like the sensation of doing it and when they hit other people theyre trying to share the sensation they enjoy, but it doesnt work out that way.

maybe someone else knows what book im talking about...


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Does he hurt anyone other than siblings?


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I just wanted to share because your son sounds just like my best friend's brother. The first time I went to her house, he chased us with big sticks and hit us (hard) while laughing. I was astonished. He used to go into his sister's room and destroy anything that was her favorite.

He had a lot of food allergies and was very sensitive to various fruits and food dyes. So I would second the close examination of the diet. This wasn't enough for him, though. He was disagnosed as a kid as having ADHD, but they never really found any drugs that worked for him.

Later, as a young adult he was diagnosed as bipolar. They got him on the right meds and he completely turned around and could have real relationships finally.

Just some thoughts for you. It must be so hard.







It's not your fault. You sound like a wonderful mama.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
That red #40 is a bad one for making kids mean and hyper.

THIS!!! That damn red dye is in everything... and some kids just cannot process it at all. A friend's dd was similar to this - she found her trying to hold her sister in the door so she could slam her head in it. Once they removed ALL red dye food items from her diet, she was like a different kid. Besides food, I'd check toothpaste, vitamins, cough syrup, everything!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I do think you might consider counseling and also evaluation by a doctor, just to make sure his development is on target and there are no health problems that are causing him distress.

I agree with this. The other kids have to be safe in their own home, and the baby is too young to defend himself against this type of thing.

I agree with you that this is above and beyond any expected four year old behavior. I'm sorry you are in this position. I'd move towards professional help as you are removing red dye from his diet. Something will work!


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## BellaClaudia (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't have any advice for you but I just wanted to share with you this:

My brother was just like him towards me. Now we are having our own families and he changed only that much that from physical aggression to just anger and creating bad atmosphere and turning everything into evil..

I don't know reasons why he became like this because he is older then me by 6 years.. almost 7.. so when I was born he would try to push me in a pram from a hill down and watched as I fell out along with the follen stroller..
things like that.. He hated my guts and he would hit me, bit me up,
make me cry by talking things that would make me upset like:
"your mom is going to leave and go far far away and you will never ever see her again" for hours when we were alone and I was tinny and crying my heart out.

What happened to him? why was he like that? I don't know. I tried him to make me like me and I wanted so older big brother to like me, to protect me from kids outside but instead he would rule a pack against me.. things like that..

I would think that however I don't want to be judgemental I would have to say that my parents missed something out. They were not educated much,
nor had lots of family values being both half orphants from the 2 world era..

either way.. he was the middle child.. does it explain something?
there is a saying htat middle child is always screwed up..
is it true? no idea, bu the defenetely somehow subscribe..

I think that the fact how my parents handled the whole sibling rivlery and the
favoritism was not best thing in the world and it might have affected him.

he for one was very sensitive, very smart and very intelligent...
Being second child after Beloved first girl who was treated like princess
was also somehow charieshed and put on pedestal for being the SON
but then I came..

he probably must have gotten simply jelous and my parents had no other ways.. and this is just in case if you consider turning to physical punishment as a solution...:

the only reaction they ever had to his missbehaviours as to any of us was heavily bitting.. it worked for me and my sister but I think that it turned up his aggression...

of course he had lots of talks to but nothing really worked and bitting in those days and age was normal, accpeted and applied at will...

he was turing it around and would eventually start bitting my mom up if she started hitting him and it would turn ugly..

I don't know what to advise but as you are maybe questionning the gentle discipline, you have now the other side of the story.. if you ever wondered..
it does not worked eihter and made it probably worse and more permanent..

My parents although tried to be fair with him and us.. were not too affectionate towards eachother nor to us.. and even though made it worse because if my dad who was sometime nice and caring he woudl be nice to me or my sister just because we were nice.. he would not be as nice to my brother because he did not liked him as he was stubborn.

He would stated openly (my dad) that he would rather had 10 girls then one boy. and he woulds say it in front of my brother..

so I don't know how much showing him affection and love would change things because I am sure that from perspective of my parents it was just hard to love somebody so unlovable but maybe that was the only other way to go?

they did not practiced that much unconditional parenting.. it was really nasty for nasty, nice for nice thing...

I know that none of us was not abused outside in any ways other then being hit and yelled at home and so I know that any such a things like sexual abuse was not in base of his behaviour..

Other then that my brother had to deal with being compared all the time to my sister who was older hten him 2 years and she was top student of the entire school wheras he was just a soo soo student because he was always mad at her being so great and beinc compared to her.. aside come to think to it he had heavily undiagnosed attention and hyperactivity disorders
and maybe the constant overload of energy had something to do with it?

If you are already showing him that you love him and already had a very clear converstaion with him that you love him and will love him the same way despite that you have more kids then just him and talked abou this feelings and let him speak why he is acting like that.. maybe he could voice it out with your help?...

maybe some reserved time a day jsut for him and showing him that it is him and he is important would turned him around as maybe it is all call for bad attantion for lack of good one?

I am sure you are best mom and you covered all those basics but just in case..

also diet, defenetely. I know that we were pumped with gluten, bread based diet, nitrites in sausages.. and deli meats tons everyday.. and maybe bad water quality - lots of iron lots and lots..!!! and who knows what else..

after all this won't hurt and maybe help..

I wish our day and age they had att. def disorder so clearly indentified..
and my parents could get educated how to approach him.. maybe this would help to direct his energy in positive way and so he could be praized for some
achievements?

how about siging him for karate or something? he probably would be really good.. atlhough hoepfully he would not turn it against you and little ones..

hugs and prayers to you..


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

My first thought is sleep. My kids have some sort of "do what mom doesn't like/would hurt someone"-radar when they are tired.

Tjej


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I would keep him with you at all times. Make it fun. It is not a punishment. It is simply a way to ensure his safety as well as the safety of your other children.

I think I missed it....how old are your children?

I have 4 and one on the way ages 9,7, 4, 2, and due in April 09


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