# Opposite sex locker room: age limit?



## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

My family and I went to swimming today and when we were ready to go home. I walked into women's locker room with my children and I saw that a 7 or 8 years old boy naked as he was putting his clothes on but he was facing the wall. I was startled because my dd1 is 7 years old and I was glad that she didn't see or even knew that the boy was there. She was just minding her own business walking through the locker room as we were heading out of the building. If she had turned her head left and she would have saw him.

I told my husband and he wondered about the age limit of going into another sex's locker room. So, I asked the lady at the cashier if there was any age limit and she was speechless and basically said "We don't really have age limit because sometimes one of the parents did not want their child to go into the locker room alone and preferred to have their children with them." I told her that I understand that but the boy was about 7 or 8 years old and he was naked in women's locker room. My daughter is 7 and she could have seen him naked. She looked like she was "stuck" and didn't really know what else to say. I told her, "its ok" and I left. I can understand the feeling of being a single parent (I was a single mother before ) and didn't want my child to be anywhere alone for many reasons.

I have been to several other places before and the age limit tend to be 5 years old.

I'm just wondering whats everyone's opinion of the age limit to go in another sex's locker room?


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## Red Pajama (Jun 11, 2007)

My SIL manages a pool at a local university. We take swim lessons there. They have posted signs that no one over 5 can be in opposite sex locker rooms. They have two family Rest rooms. My boys are 5, and the family rest rooms are often busy. I will keep them with me until they turn 6, because I don't really have much choice.

I personally think that 5 is too young to make the limit, but I understand that they feel the need to make a limit somewhere.


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## zmom2010 (Jul 15, 2010)

well, I have no experience in this YET as my DS is 6 months. But, IMO, I think that until a kid is old enough to be home by himself, he's not old enough to go change in a locker room by himself.
I know you are worried about your DS, but in my mind the risk of what could happen to him alone in an adult male locker room is much more serious that a 7yo possibly seeing each other naked. Plus, it sounds as if the mother and the boy were being respectful with him facing the wall and all.

Now, we are in a decent sized city, I suppose if this was in a really small town where everyone knows everyone else, that would be a different story,

I just asked my DH about this though, and he had a totally different opinion!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zmom2010* 
well, I have no experience in this YET as my DS is 6 months. *But, IMO, I think that until a kid is old enough to be home by himself, he's not old enough to go change in a locker room by himself.*
I know you are worried about your DD, but in my mind the risk of what could happen to him alone in an adult male locker room is much more serious that a 7yo possibly seeing each other naked. Plus, it sounds as if the mother and the boy were being respectful with him facing the wall and all.

Now, we are in a decent sized city, I suppose if this was in a really small town where everyone knows everyone else, that would be a different story,

I just asked my DH about this though, and he had a totally different opinion!

A great big







that to the bolded. I honestly wouldnt have a problem with my dd seeing the boy especially from the back but that is just me. I dont know yet when I will be ok with ds going to the bathroom alone in public but he is 5 right now and I am no where near ok with him going alone yet.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I would let my oldest (ten in a few months) go into a locker room by himself, but I wouldn't have when he was 7, and probably not even 8. Aside from it being problematic (for me) to send a little boy in to a room to get naked with grown men (who are also naked), a lot of locker rooms exit to the pool, and though my son couldn't swim at that age, he thought he could and was very impulsive. Also, I doubt he would have come out on his own - too much fun stuff to mess with. I'd rather have my 7 year old daughter see a naked boy (and, honestly, she has brothers and a father, so it's not like it's something she hasn't seen before) than for another mother to have to worry about her son getting molested or drowning or otherwise getting hurt.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Our pool has a strict age limit; if a child is over 5 the child cannot enter the locker room of the other sex. Even though there are private changing stalls, etc.

But, there is a family changing room-- this is what we use if I have all of my kids with me, frankly it is easier because I can lock the door and there is a shower and a bathroom there.

We see each other changing, but my boys hate going into the ladies room, and no way would they be comfortable changing in the middle of the locker room like that, even if it was the men's room.

I'm surprised they don't have a family changing room. I wouldn't send my boys in the locker room alone to change, but I wouldn't make them change in the middle of the ladies' room either. I would *at least* use a stall.


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## artzy_fartzy68 (Dec 29, 2005)

our ymca has a 4 y/o limit according to a posted , which is INSANE!! My almost 4 y/o can't dress himself AT ALL and I take him to the gym/pool all the time!

I couldn't care less who my kid sees naked. That's not something I worry about, I've got bigger fish to fry. Like having him not run away while *I'M* still naked







:
This isn't an issue for me, but it must be for other people or there wouldn't be a sign.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

7-8 year olds can be squirrelly about going in to dressing rooms alone. I have seen the best behavior turn into need to play with showers, wait for a stall when there are empty ones, et.

Also, you don't know if that is a tall 5 year old (btdt).

IMO, you should take the attitude you would have taken if it was a 7-8 year old girl no big deal. Teach your child there are times you don't stare and move on. Seeing another child naked isn't going to do any harm.

We have friends that quit swimming for a while because she could no longer take her child with cerebral palsy through the locker room. Even though she would use the handicap stall and you have to actually stick your head through the curtain. She would warn people before they came through.







She had to obtain a lawyer.


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

The pool where we take swimming lessons has a 5 yo age limit. My DS cannot dress himself - taking off wet swimwear, especially the rash guard tops, is difficult. Plus I do not want him in the men's changing room alone. There is no family changing room at this pool. We no longer walk to lessons, and drive so that I can get him home before he gets cold (we've had a cool summer where we are) or else we change in the car, or right next to the car, in the parking lot.

I feel like under 10 yo should be the requirement for opposite gender changing rooms.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't think it would have bothered me for my own child to see another child of the opposite sex naked. But, I wouldn't have wanted a seven or eight yr old looking at ME naked. That's why I like that our gym has a "nobody under age 12" rule. I don't want to feel uncomfortable in my own gym. Now, if the child was looking the other way.. (they never do.. they always watch me dress) I probably wouldn't care. But, I really don't like undressing in front of kids. Boy or girl.

I also wouldn't want my own child to feel uncomfortable undressing in front of others. Especially if there was even the slightest chance that another kid that might be watching could be in her school. She'd have been mortified.


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

My dd is 5.5 and I cannot imagine letting her go into a dressing room without me or dp anytime soon. There is just no way. If a pool enforced a rule like that and had no family dressing rooms, we just wouldn't go there (well, assuming i had an opposite sex child, or dp was going to take dd). AND I'd be pretty upset about it. I really doubt I'd think twice about my dd seeing a 7 y/o boy naked in the locker room, whether it be now or when she's that age too, though i can kind of see how it might be an issue if it was somebody she knew from school.

I'm torn, because I'd like to see our culture less scared of the natural body (as opposed to a "sexy" body in the media, etc), but at the same time I can't stand how pool changing rooms don't typically have many private places to change, if at all. dd will still change her clothes in completely public places without a second thought, and it doesn't bother me either. However *I* am a very modest person and don't appreciate being made to be a nudist if I want to go swimming. Anyway, I think that would be a good middle ground in this situation, because then a child of that age could go into the opposite sex's changing room, but have a stall to change in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Our locker room at the local rec center is 5. However, I find 5 far too young. At 5, ds couldn't get himself showered, dried and changed. At 5, he probably looked like he was 7 or 8, by the way. He is tall for his age (his height at 6 was the size of an average 8 year old).

It wasn't an issue for us, because our rec center has family changing rooms. Even now, my kids prefer the family changing rooms to going into one without a parent. Our son is 9, and only in the last year or two would he consider changing alone. I wouldn't have let him before age 8 or so anyway. I still worry about someone molesting him, which is why we do the family changing room. (Well that and the fact that I can keep him on task and make sure he washes his hair.)

Having kids of the opposite sex see my body doesn't bother me. My kids are often in the room when I get dressed. I realize that's not the norm for American culture, but I'd rather have kids (under ~11) in the changing room with their parents.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

At our park district the age limit is six. There is no family changing room, but there are two stalls on the pool deck specifically for dressing kids with special needs, or other kids who are beyond the age limit but still need help dressing so that an opposite-sex parent has a way to assist them.

Our 7.5 yo is just now able to efficiently get his bottom half dried off and pull on sweat pants in under twenty minutes and get past his modesty enough to not spend another ten minutes trying to hide in a locker or find some way to do it all inside a towel. In the summer I just take them home in towel-dried swimsuits. In the winter it's harder.

I understand the need for the age limits - our son does not want to see girls changing any more than he wants them to see him...but IMO family changing areas are an absolute necessity. At 7.5 I do not feel good about sending him into a men's general locker room to change alone. At our park district, there is a small locker room for just the pool (not the gym) and at the time we are there, the pool is only used for kids' swimming lessons, so I am okay with that. But if he had to go into the general gym men's locker room alone - no, no, no way. In that situation I would just towel dry his trunks the best I could, help him put a pair of sweats over them and then snow pants over those, and head home, or go someplace with a women's bathroom I could get him into to put on dry clothes.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I don't think it would have bothered me for my own child to see another child of the opposite sex naked. But, I wouldn't have wanted a seven or eight yr old looking at ME naked. That's why I like that our gym has a "nobody under age 12" rule. I don't want to feel uncomfortable in my own gym. Now, if the child was looking the other way.. (they never do.. they always watch me dress) I probably wouldn't care. But, I really don't like undressing in front of kids. Boy or girl.

I also wouldn't want my own child to feel uncomfortable undressing in front of others. *Especially if there was even the slightest chance that another kid that might be watching could be in her school. She'd have been mortified.*


The bold up above was one of my concern but my main concern is my dd1 was molested by her 11 years old cousin (boy) several years ago. She has been through therapy to learn the boundaries and etc. I didn't want her to be traumatized or to have some of her behaviors triggered again.

I wish the place I went had a family room because I would use that rather than the locker room to "protect" my dd1/children.

My husband even said, if he was alone with my dd1 and he would never take her to men's locker room b/c my dd1 is old enough to go through the women's locker room by herself and meet him at the other end. But he is concerned because he wonders the scenario of having to take our currently 1 yr old twins when they are between the age of 3 to 5 in the men's locker room.

We always put our bathing suit on at home when going to swimming and would shower then change into our clothes at home after swimming.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Wow, I think I would demand a family changing room if our pool didn't have one.

I agree, it is unreasonable to have 6+ children changing by themselves. I would just take my kids home wet or change in the car without family changing rooms.

Because, on the other hand, I think it is fair to have kids know that there won't be an older child of the opposite sex in the room. At our pool there are a lot of girls showering, changing without a parent. It is only fair that they have the safety of knowing that an older boy can not walk in the room! And the showers are all open, and you have to walk past them to get to the pool.

I would demand a family changing room!


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

I wouldn't have had an issue with it. I don't think nudity is a big deal.


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## ShyDaisi (Jan 22, 2007)

For some reason I have more of a problem with a girl being in the men's locker room over a certain age that I do with a boy being in the women's locker room over a certain age. As a whole I am more wary of any child being alone in a men's locker room than I am of said child being in the women's locker room. This is probably a side effect from being molested as a child, but I see the majority of women as being mothering and or nurturing type figures that would protect or help a child in need, as opposed to a minority of men. That is not to say that all men are more likely to molest or not help, but I think there is more likely to be a molester within a group of males than a group of female -- as low of a chance there is of either group containing one at all. I, as a single parent, am terrified of the point in time rolling around at which I have to send my son into a bathroom alone. At 3-years-old, that day is, thankfully, at least a couple of years away...

That said, I have had to send my child into a men's restroom...There was a line to Timbuktu for the women's restroom and my just turned 3-year-old *really* had to go. There wasn't a line at all to the men's restroom. I stood at the door and waited for a father with children walking in and asked if he could just keep an eye on him when he went. He asked if he needed help going (looking really nervous about it...Micah is small for his age so he probably looked just under or just over 2), and I said he could do it, I was just nervous about sending him in alone. He then looked relieved and agreed, which made me feel better. I was extremely nervous the entire time and was prepared to waltz in if my personal time limit was exceeded, but I did what I had to do at the time...


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds wouldn't have been ready to go into a men's changing room and change by himself at 7 and 8. I think he's just reaching that point now that he's turning 9.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I avoid the whole situation by taking ds into the family restroom to change. It's the women's restroom, but we go into a stall.

They do have kid's locker rooms where we go, but adults use them too. I think I would be able to send ds into the boy's locker room if I could peek in first and see who's in there.

ETA: There are locker rooms for kids because they aren't allowed in the adult locker rooms. I think adults shouldn't be allowed to use the kid's locker room. I don't mean adults with kids - random adults will walk in and use them because they are closer to the pool and the aerobics room.


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## MamaJenese (Aug 14, 2006)

We have a age 5 limit at our ymca. However there 7 family changing rooms. I0
have never had to wait to use one. I use them all the time as it is waaay easier to get the kids and myseff together in one small room then in the gian locker room where they like to wander! I can not imagine having an age limit as young as five with out ample family rooms.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Our gym has a policy of kids 6 and over must go to the same-sex locker room.

To be honest, I never really thought of it as a big deal that kids see other adults naked--until I realized how many kids from our school go to our gym!! While I could really care less who sees me -- I've had conversations with kids I know from volunteering from school actually, while getting dressed--awkward the first time, but I was enjoying chatting with their moms too and meeting them so it was fine, I am pretty sure that DD would be very shy being undressed in front of some of the boys in her class. I also can think of several kids (all of them boys at this age, but I know it happens with girls too) who might use seeing even her underwear as a teasing thing (not in a sexual way, more like potty humor I guess).

The pool they used to go to had an even younger age limit, so when everyone took lessons I had to allow my twin boys to go in alone when they were 5. I have a hard time imagining 5 year olds who truly *can't* dress themselves (precluding disabilities I guess). Mine often said they couldn't, wanted assistance, needed some help with snaps and button down shirts in particular--but I just put them in easy dress clothing and we practiced them removing wet bathing suits/toweling off/dressing (they thought it was hilarious to wear their bathing suits in the bathtub, BTW). They dawdled the first time (playing with some other boys in the same situation--freedom from mom rushing them!! LOL). But after that I gave them a time limit and if they got out before or at that time limit then they could either play at the little playground for a little while (near the pool's parking lot) or sometimes I'd have a special snack or something. After awhile, it just became routine. Now that we've switched to our new gym they are no-nonsense and often out and waiting for DD and I.


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## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

Our old gym had a 4-year-old limit, BUT there were two family changing rooms that pretty much never had a line, so I think that's fine. In the absence of family rooms, I would not be sending my 5- or 6- or even 8-year-old into the men's locker room by himself. I don't have a daughter, but I don't think I would be bothered by her seeing a boy change in the women's room. Nudity was a big deal for my family growing up, so I've tried to make sure that my kids see it as a totally normal thing. DS is only 2 right now, so we don't have a problem, and I hope I can keep it that way.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

My 8 year old son can use the men's locker room at the community center - where there's a low number of people going through and the locker room is made in such a way that it's open - there aren't any hiding places. He tends to play a bit in there sometimes, but he comes out eventually, and doesn't make too much of a mess. And I know the people at the community center, so I can ask them to check on him if necessary. The community center pool doesn't have family changing rooms.

He doesn't change in the men's locker room at the gym pool. For one, it's far too busy. The gym isn't family-oriented like the community center is, so the feeling is very different. I don't have such a feeling of trust and well-being about the gym locker rooms. Also, the showers are separate and curtained, which provides a hiding place where bad things could happen. He does use it when he has to go to the bathroom while at the pool, but that's something that takes a set amount of time, and I know when I can expect him to emerge. Thankfully, my gym has family changing rooms (oversized bathrooms with benches) which we use. If there were no family changing rooms, I'd send him to the underused non-locker-room bathroom to change, and I'd wait outside for him.


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## spedteacher30 (Nov 20, 2005)

We were just facing this yesterday. The public pool we normally go to has a family changing room, and we use it all the time--unless it is locked and DS really needs to go to the bathroom quickly. In that case, the toilets in the women's locker room are completely out of sightline to the changing area and we zoom in and out without issue.

But, yesterday, we went to the other municipal pool. We were attending a festival at the park, and DS wanted to swim. this pool doesn't have a family change area, and it was just me and DS (who is 4--but looks 6 or 7).

I led him to the curtain-less shower stall, held up a towel to give him privacy, and then brought him into the main change area once the young girl changing had finished and left. By then, he had his underwear on, and so he finished getting dressed while I changed. There was a woman who was still getting dressed, but she had her bra and shorts on by the time he came out of the shower stall. i only took him to the shower stall to give the young girl more privacy--she seemed a little surprised to see him appear in the locker room with her. I wouldn't have bothered if just the woman had been there. She could have advocated for herself, or come up with a solution independently as far as I am concerned.

We usually put our suits on at home and change out of them at home, but yesterday we were going back to the festival after our swim. There are no posted rules, and we aren't ready to let DS go into multi-user restrooms or locker rooms unattended. the gym we used to attend had an age limit of 3, but they also had 5 or 6 assisted change rooms that anyone could use.

I think there is almost always a way that a family can meet their needs while being respectful of the needs of the other users. i can't imagine people around here getting bent out of shape at the situation one previous poster described of a young person with a disability being quickly led in and out of the locker room since the gyms here all have multiple private change areas for people who are that modest or concerned.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Our Y has a five year old age limit and they will kick people out of the locker room if you go talk to a staff member about it or if the staff member sees a kid in the locker room. They are also strict about no kids in the adult locker rooms. The have many family locker rooms though so parents who are uncomfortable having their kid go in a locker room alone have other options.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I think it should be older than seven, personally. I know a lot of people who don't want their eight, nine, and ten year old boys in the men's locker rooms by themselves. I don't think it's that big of a deal before puberty, provided the children are near their parents and are not allowed to play in a way that would make people uncomfortable.

If I were the parent, I think that if for some reason I was uncomfortable with the locker room, I would try to teach my son the changing-shorts-under-the-towel trick, and keep him nearer a corner so women don't feel uncomfortable, though. Some people don't like it when there are boys, even little boys, around, and I can understand that, but I think parents have the right to keep their kids close.


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## VBMama (Jan 6, 2004)

My boys are in public swim lessons for the first time this year, and wow, this is tough!

My oldest ds is 6.5, and it would be a disaster for me to either have to take him in to the women's locker room or send him in the men's by himself. He would totally be staring at all the women changing because he's never been in a locker room before, it would just be the novelty of a bunch of people all changing clothes right out in the open. I don't feel it is respectful to assume everyone else in the locker room would be comfortable with a 6.5yo boy's presence (plus the stated age is 5). And if I sent him in the men's room, he would never come out because he would be goofing around and enjoying being out of parental/instructor supervision way too much. He is impulsive, highly curious, and always extremely bent on demonstrating his independence - I don't even want to think what he would get up too! Before I found the family change rooms (which we usually have had to wait for), I just made him a "privacy screen" in the bleachers area by holding a large beach towel around him to change under. I am not happy about sending him in a public restroom by himself in other places although I do it if I don't have a choice, but a big locker room is much different than a restroom IMO.

And then this story was in my local newspaper last month and freaked me out. I do not usually spend a lot of time worrying about the rare worst case scenario, but I won't be sending him into the men's locker room by himself for a few years yet.

Thank goodness for family change rooms.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I also wouldn't want my own child to feel uncomfortable undressing in front of others. Especially if there was even the slightest chance that another kid that might be watching could be in her school. She'd have been mortified.

This happened to my daughter last May and she was absolutely mortified. Our health club has a rule that if your opposite sex child is over 3 you must use the family locker room and generally it is not ever a problem. Until last May. My DD's and I walked into the women's locker room to change and we immediately saw a boy from my older daughter's class in school (8 years old - the end of 2nd grade) standing completely naked in the middle of the locker room waiting for his mom, who was on her cell phone, to get the shower ready for him. My daughter was so uncomfortable and bolted out of the locker room. Thankfully the girls had their suits on under their clothes so we just stayed by the pool and I waited for my husband to join us so that I could go to the adult only locker room to change since I was very uncomfortable changing infront of a boy who I would be interacting with in the classroom just days later. I did report the mom to membership - there was absolutely no reason to her son to have been in the women's locker room when the family locker room was just a few more feet down the hall.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Mko* 
I wouldn't have had an issue with it. I don't think nudity is a big deal.

You may not have a problem with nudity but there are people who do and they deserve a palce to change where they feel comfortable and safe. Family locker room really are necessary to prevent this.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

We have 4 "family" changing rooms for parents with opposite sex children. Then we have a girls locker room, boys locker room, mens locker room and womens locker room.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
You may not have a problem with nudity but there are people who do and they deserve a palce to change where they feel comfortable and safe. Family locker room really are necessary to prevent this.

I think family locker rooms/bathrooms are great! I just said I personally wouldn't have a problem with nudity.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

The pool where I swim has a policy of six year olds and older having to go to their appropriate locker room. There are no family changing rooms or other options--although I wish there were. I will say that about the age of 5-6, DS1 wanted to go to the men's locker room... as well as the boy's bathroom when we were out. He didn't want to be with the girls anymore.

Nudity is not an issue in our family--so it wouldn't bother me if there were boys in the women's locker room who were older than 6... but I'm not sure what the limit should be. Maybe 8 or 9? Not sure.


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## mkksmom (Mar 24, 2008)

To me, the solution is to have stalls with curtains or doors for people to change. That's what we have at our pool. Who knows who a little boy might encounter in a men's locker room. I only have girls, so it's easy for me, but I think it would help if there were private changing areas for those who want privacy.


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## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
You may not have a problem with nudity but there are people who do and they deserve a palce to change where they feel comfortable and safe. Family locker room really are necessary to prevent this.

So if you don't want to see others' nudity, why didn't you use the family changing room in the first place?

Our gym has a ridiculously low age of 3. They have a family locker room, but only the open/shared/public/multi-sex locker area is carpeted. There are a few multipurpose locking private shower/toilet rooms, but there's no place to put dry clothes, no dry place to sit, and I hate getting dressed over wet tile. Heck, I'm been known to just dress in the open locker area with my son. I need to sit down on a dry bench to get dressed.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Well we used to go to the Y for swim lessons and the sign on the door said "No boys between the ages of 0-99 allowed in the women's locker room"

(I guess when you turn 99 its a free for all!)

And the family changing room didn't have a shower. They also had the rule that you must shower before going in the pool, but made it impossible for people with kids. So we decided to follow one rule and not the other, we used the family changing room but didn't shower!


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## onyxravnos (Dec 30, 2006)

well for the first few times could you bring a male relative/friend? so he can go in the boy one but wont go all crazy and goofy without an adult in charge?

or maybe if he wont come out again ask a employee to 'check on him' i've done that at public bathrooms my 3 1/2 was fascinated with the automatic sinks and i had a male employee just go in and nicely mention that his mom wanted him.\

another idea might be to put on the swim suits at home and then just go home in them too, dry off as much as you can and then change at home.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

I just wanted to recommend the book "Free Range Kids" to help assuage some of the fears I see in this thread (that boys will be more likely to be sexually abused in male locker rooms).

Your sons are much much more likely to be abused by a relative or somebody you know that by any random guy in a locker room. Part of the problem is that because of the 24-hour news channel, Internet, and Crime Shows... it seems like it's much more prevalent than it is. Actually, crime rates are down to around 1970 levels.

It's normal to want to protect your child (I say this as the mother of two, soon to be three, young boys).... to worry about abuse and such... but reality is, it's very very unlikely to happen... and if it is going to happen, it's much more likely to be a relative or somebody your kid already knows.

http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/2...buse-way-down/

Of course, others may have worries about getting burned by the shower or whatever... but it seems like letting boys in a locker room with men is a concern for many Moms.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I think people make a bigger issue of this than it is. There's naked people in locker rooms. If you're an extremely private, modest person, don't change in the locker room. No one HAS to do it. It may be more convenient for any number of reasons, but no part of it is necessary.

I think it's silly that people worry about a little boy seeing a woman naked. But I generally think people have too many hang-ups about bodies.

I took my son into the locker room with me as long as we had a gym membership, so he was probably six. There is NO WAY I would have sent him into the men's locker room alone. I would be completely at the mercy of other people and also of my son's ability to stay on task and get the job done. There were family changing rooms, but they were usually busy with people who were overly modest and wanted the privacy of an enclosed place with no one else around. I don't think that's right, but the gym had no enforcement policy when it came to those areas.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I think our YMCA had a 6yo limit. It was posted in the room. I took my DD and her friend (a boy who was just barely 5) to swimming lessons. He looked about 7 or 8yo. He sometimes changed in the bathroom or changed more privately outside the bathroom stall, but sometimes really didn't. I guess I never felt bad about it because he's just a little kid. I didn't worry about my DD being private either. Although I did try to keep both of them from yelling about privates or from staring at people







.

If I do end up taking my DD and her friend to swimming lessons again next year I am not sure how it will work because I am really unsure how he would do going to a changeroom alone and meeting properly out the other side (if we took longer than him I don't know what he'd do by the pool).

Tjej


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

We have a 3 year old limit at our gym and I think that's ridiculous since they already segregate the changing room to "Adult Only" and "Moms with Kids under 3". 3 is just so young! They have family restrooms otherwise, but that's it. Since DS is super tall for 2.5 I always get the evil eye from a few workers there which is annoying to say the least.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

We went to a water park last Sunday, and they had a posted rule that if you're over 2







you must use the locker room of the appropriate gender OR use the family changing room (there's ONE family changing room). I was shocked.

I'm pretty liberal about nakedness, so the 7yo thing wouldn't bother me though, unless he was acting out or anything. *shrug*. For us, naked is naked.


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## Oubliette8 (Apr 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness* 
There were family changing rooms, but they were usually busy with people who were overly modest and wanted the privacy of an enclosed place with no one else around. I don't think that's right, but the gym had no enforcement policy when it came to those areas.

I don't think thats entirely fair. There are any number of reasons why a normal looking person might want to use a private changing room. Perhaps they have some sort of private medical issue they would prefer not to display to a locker room full of folks. Perhaps they have some sort of abuse history that makes them extremely uncomfortable changing in front of others. Maybe they have some sort of mobility issue that the private rooms can accommodate better.

My gym teacher in middle school told us a story once. We had double sided gym shirts, so when we chose teams, half would flip their shirts inside out to the other color. She used to have the girls change in the locker room, and the boys stay in the gym to change. One day, a few boys headed for their locker room. She was about to tell them they had to stay and change in the gym, when she remembered, one of the boys had a heart condition, and a huge scar down his chest. She let them go, and has let the boys choose ever since.

Personally, I have a medical condition. My doctor has been encouraging me to join the local Y and has offered to write a note to allow me to use the private change rooms if that would make me more comfortable. I'm not sure a note is actually required, I'm pretty sure they're open to anyone, but he offers anyway. I'd like to think I look pretty normal to most people.

I think, if the family locker rooms are always full, maybe its a sign they need more family locker rooms. I wouldn't assume anyones reasons for wanting to change in private.


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## Kara11230 (Apr 24, 2012)

At my gym, there is no rule. We rely on people to use good judgement. Of course, some boys are tall at a very young age. I try to change privately (turning my back, etc). I don't like when I see a boy staring at my chest, but it has happened a few times. I certainly would prefer not to see them naked, and don't want a naked boy even seeing my underwear. But, I understand Moms don't want them in the Men's locker room alone.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Our community center.. like a Y has large and several family changing rooms. I like that because I have been stared at by a ten year old boy in another locker room setting. I realize he was probably dragged in there by an over protective mom.. but I think that's too old. He had a definite interest in breasts. I found it disconcerting to say the least. And I don't have nudity "issues". I take my family to outdoor hot springs in the national forests here and everyone strips down in front of the sky and hot water and gorgeous scenery.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

There are times that we just have to shrug and say well, that wasn't best for me at the moment but that must be what the other person needed. I would let it go for now; if it becomes a pattern maybe ask the other mom if her son can change in a closed toilet stall.

What's silly to me is the idea that we shouldn't bring our pre-pubescent boys into a regular public ladies' room. If you're not in the US, all toileting in public ladies' rooms is done in a lockable stall. What EXACTLY they might see that would be inappropriate if they went in there is a great mystery. Mascara application? It's not like the men's rooms where they are whipping it out in the open air.


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## MamaInTheDesert (Jan 30, 2012)

A few years before I had my DD I spent some time working at a public pool that had no restrictions as far as age limit went for opposite sex use of changing rooms. There were no family changing rooms and the only entrance for visitors into the pool was through the changing rooms. As someone who worked there, I was very grateful for this. There were both bathroom stalls and shower stalls in each changing room, and if a mom or dad wanted to take their opposite sex child into the locker room, they could have them change in the stalls. I had a couple of moms come to me and ask what they should do because they didn't want their little boys going into the changing room themselves, and I told them to just run them to the shower stall that was the biggest and closest to the door and have them change there. It was safer for everyone.

Upthread someone mentioned that they were afraid that the kid would run through the changing room and jump into the pool when they didn't know how to swim. I actually had the opposite happen. a little boy (age 3) ran through the changing room from and booked it out the door of the facility to the parking lot. It was really scary to watch. I was behind a locked door and a chest high counter. It took me a few seconds to get out from behind the desk and chase after him. Luckily there was a long sidewalk before you reached the parking lot, and I reached him before he reached the cars. It was another five minutes or so before his mother came out.

Another time I watched a mom send her little boy (this one about 5 or 6) into the locker room. He was already in his trunks and she told him to just go through the doors and meet her on the pool side. After what felt quite awhile she came back up to the front desk and asked if her kiddo had come back out this way. When I said that he hadn't she of course wanted someone to go in and find her boy. Everyone working that shift was female. I called for a janitor, but after 10 minutes the mom is starting to freak out, so I ended up asking a patron I knew pretty well if he could go into the men's changing room and find this little boy. Turns out he got confused about the doors and was just hiding in a shower stall because he didn't know which way to go.

There was another boy (Maybe 9 or 10). I saw this family pretty regularly, and always talked with the mom and the daughter while the son took forever horsing around with the other kids who came around that time. We were getting ready to close, and they were the last ones in the lobby. The changing rooms echoed pretty loudly into the hallway, and there was no sound coming from there. The lifeguards had already taken off, and I was the last one working in the building. I went and knocked on the door, and got no response, I cracked the door and yelled and got no response. So, I rushed in there, and find him passed out against the wall in the main shower area. I called for the mom, told her to stay with him as I called paramedics and waited in the lobby with the daughter. It turns out he slipped and fell on his way to the showers, and didn't pass out until he tried to stand back up. What was unbelievable was that there must have been at least 10 other people in there when it happened and either no one saw or no one cared. I was just so glad that his head was up against the wall, because the water pools on that floor really badly.

I've probably got 10 more stories like these just from the year and a half I worked at this pool. So, I totally agree with the PPs who say it's safer just to take your kid with you and this too:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zmom2010*
> 
> ... I think that until a kid is old enough to be home by himself, he's not old enough to go change in a locker room by himself...


Edited to add: I did also get complaints when parents did take their kids to the opposite sex's changing rooms. I reacted usually the same way as the cashier lady lady by stating that some parents were concerned about their kid's safety, and we had no rules stating age limits for children in the changing rooms because of that. If they weren't irate past the point of reasoning I'd usually tell them one of the stories about kids getting scared or hurt going in the locker rooms by themselves, and after that they "got it."


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

Our local gym has an age limit of 5 but I don't pay any attention to it because when I am there alone with two children I am not going to send my 5 year old son into a mens locker room alone. I have no idea who is in there or what they are capable of.

He is a private person by choice, so he goes in a stall and changes by himself.

If we were to see a 7-8 year old boy child in the womans locker room I would not care. We are not offended by innocent nudity.

-Hannah


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## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

Other women frequently give me dirty looks when I'm in a locker room or restroom with my DD and DS. They sometimes even say things aloud to their children for me to hear... "Yes, honey, it is very strange that there's a boy in here." My DS is 3.5 y/o and DD is 1. DH works midnights which leaves me alone with the kids everyday. So, how exactly is my DS supposed to use the restroom/get changed at the pool/etc? I should send him - alone - to a room of grown, naked men? The only restroom DS goes into alone is a port a potty! And still with me at the door. DS is quite tall and mature looking, as an outsider looking in I'd place him around 5. The age limit at our gym IS 5, which is fine because when the time comes, there are family restrooms available. I pay no mind to boys with their mothers in the women's locker room. The boys almost certainly don't want to be there (as DS tells me EVERY time - "but Mom! I am a BOY. This is the GIRLS one!).. and the mothers almost certainly wish they had another option. But they don't.

FWIW, we have a family history of molestation, so my DS' private parts are only for him to see and him to touch, bottom line. So he's always in a private stall when changing or using the restroom, and never visibly naked to other children. But overall, I would be more concerned to see a child 7 or 8, alone in a locker room, than a child 7 or 8, of the opposite sex with their parent.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

My main concern is when you have a school-aged child in an opposite-sex change room, who might see one of his friends naked. I bet they would be embarrassed.

In my experience, 3-4 year olds don't care if they are naked or not. But my 7 y/o would be mortified to come with me in the women's dressing room, especially if one of his girl classmates could see him naked.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't mind 3 to 4 year olds, but I have a 10-year-old dd, and she has a right to not change in front of boys she knows from school. I live in a small town so if there's a 10-year-old boy in there, she probably knows him. There does have to be an upper limit IMO. I don't know what it is. This is a tricky issue and I do understand why moms want to bring their boys with them, but an adult man could trip in the men's room if he's in there alone too. At some point the boys belong in their own changing room.

I'm much more relaxed in bathrooms where there are private stalls anyway.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Double post


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## Emmeline II (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zmom2010*
> But, IMO, I think that until a kid is old enough to be home by himself, he's not old enough to go change in a locker room by himself.
> I know you are worried about your DS, but in my mind the risk of what could happen to him alone in an adult male locker room is much more serious that a 7yo possibly seeing each other naked. Plus, it sounds as if the mother and the boy were being respectful with him facing the wall and all.


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

Luckily every pool we go to has a large family change room. This is it's own change room that has more than enough stalls for everyone to change in. These change rooms are reserved for anyone who has children 3 and over of the opposite sex with them. I have 2 daughters so we have only used them a couple times when my husband was with us and we wanted to stay together. What does irk me is a few times there have been 8-9 year old boys in the women's change room with their mom's. I don't understand that because they have access to the family change rooms which are actually newer and better equiped. A couple times when this has happened I have seen other mom's say something. Both times they have been mom's with daughters who look to be 10-12. The daughters look pretty awkward about trying to change in front of a 9 year old boy. It's too bad all pools aren't required to have an adequate family change room. At least here there is an option... Personally I think parent's should use their best judgement.

I do agree that 5 is very young to be going into a change room alone. My DD is just about to turn 5 and is very independent but I could see her getting confused or lost in a change room on her own.

Not sure who said it but I agree about boys in the women's washroom. I mean everyone is in a stall... I could care-a-less who is in there as long as they aren't in the stall with me.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Huh--we always just dry off as best we can and get in the car in our damp suits with towels under us! is that weird? I've just never wanted to mess with it. Our pool does not have family locker rooms. I've never seen any signs regarding age.

I guess I should add that the pool is very close to our house so it's not like we ever have to go from the pool to another stop. Never really paused to appreciate this before!


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## andromedajulie (May 28, 2011)

This is a tough one. MY DD is 9 and she is MORTIFIED when she sees a boy 5 or older in the changing room. I think it's because if they're old enough to be in her school, they feel like a peer. she's had sex ed and is starting puberty, but is still little. She is very uncomfortable seeing naked boys, and is horrified to even be in the room with them when she is getting ready to change! Plus, there is often not an open family changing room or stall for her.

As a mom though, I probably would not let a young son of mine go alone into a boys locker room, no way. But it always bothers me when this happens and I wish that moms would send boys into a stall to change - or more importantly, we need to have stalls and family changing rooms in abundance.


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

I have boys, but I don't want a 7 year old boy in my locker room when I'm changing. That's way too old to be changing with women. And I am modest. Fine if you're not, but I am and it's a ladies locker room. Boys who are seven are capable of dressing themselves, so I do think the child could go to the men's locker to change. But if there's a concern, the boy should come in his suit, and leave in his suit. Or he could go with his mom to a ladies restroom after she checks that no one is in there and change in a stall. I don't think it's the responsibility of every other woman and girl at the pool to have to deal with the boy.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

I wish they'd just put a bunch of stalls in places like this. I don't want to change in front of a bunch of strange women either!


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## adubod (Jul 13, 2012)

I came across this problem just yesterday in a private hotel complex. We walked in and an elderly woman asked my sister if she knew the rules and pointed at her 5 year old son. She said no she didnt, and the woman said ..well he shouldnt be in here he has to go next door to the gents. This woman was fully dressed...the only person in there..and just leaving...she had no reason to worry or question us. There are 2 cubicles which my sister makes her son use. The hotel has no family sharing facility.

I would NEVER put a 5 year old into a changing room with strange men without his father or family member with him, its opening him to to anything !!! You never know who is in there !!! Would you leave your 5 yr old son???? ok ..you may want to protect your daughter from seeing an 8 yr old naked, thats fair enough...but that 8 yr old should have been in the cubicle, you could have pointed that out to him, but id never insist anyone put a little boy in with strange men to strip naked to go swimming, and i dont think any other mother would. I think if the facility doesnt have a family room you should be able to take your child in up to primary school age, as long as they change in the cubicle. And if any woman are worried about little boys checking them out, show a bit of decorum yourselves and change in the cubicles, i can change outside the cubicle using a towel and not show an inch of skin !! (im good at that at home too)


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Well I guess I don't believe there are child molesters waiting around every corner in gym locker rooms, just waiting for a child changing in order to hurt them. At the gym we went to when my oldest was 5, they had a rule where 5 and over had to use the same sex locker rooms. I'm not sure if it was actually enforced, but my son had no problem going in the locker room, changing, and coming out. All the boys did this and I can't remember any of them having a problem. There was a sign posted saying that they would send in a same sex employee of the gym to supervise or w/e if you wanted.

At the gym we use currently, a ymca, they have a nice set up. I'm not sure the actual age restrictions, but they have an adult men, adult women, boy, and girl locker rooms. So 4 separate locker rooms. I guess this is so you can send your opposite sex child into their own locker room and not worry about adults? I'm not sure. Then they also have about 6 family changing rooms. Those do tend to get crowded after swim lessons. The child locker rooms only have one exit, and while roomy, are not as large and maze like as the adult ones. All 3 of my boys have used the boy changing room without a single problem, except maybe being too slow. They are 9, 6, and 4.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mkksmom*
> 
> To me, the solution is to have stalls with curtains or doors for people to change. That's what we have at our pool. Who knows who a little boy might encounter in a men's locker room. I only have girls, so it's easy for me, but I think it would help if there were private changing areas for those who want privacy.


A little boy would encounter men changing to get ready to go swimming...that's it.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

i took my 7 year old in the locker room with me. the family locker room only has 2 showers and they were both taken so we used the women's locker room. he changes in the curtained area there though. there are curtained areas to change, i have never seen a naked person in the locker room there before


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## loveandgarbage (Feb 5, 2008)

This is why we come and leave in swim trunks when we go swimming. My kids don't care being a little wet and if we go somewhere afterward, nbd, swim trunks look like shorts anyway. My older son, because is he tall for his age, has been mistaken for 1-3 years older since he was a toddler. Because I want to be respectful of other women/girls we don't use the women's changing room together. I personally don't have an issue with changing in front of boys say under the age of 10, but that's just me and I understand everyone has different feelings on this.

To the OP, I'm so sorry to hear that your daughter was molested. I hope she is healing from her experience









This thread has been a fascinating read for me. I was molested by a female friend of mine when I was 10 and she was 11-12, had begun to develop, whereas puberty was still a couple of years away for me. It definitely made me uncomfortable with nakedness/the female body for quite some time. I therefore didn't feel like a female changing room was a safe space devoid of sexuality. That said, as a kid I was still more comfortable changing in front of other girls than boys. As other PPs have mentioned, male changing rooms make me uncomfortable because let's be honest, it is MUCH more likely that an older male will look at a young boy in a sexual way than an older female would a girl. In this country, I think more so than many other comparable countries, the female body is sexualized by society at a young age and this in turn makes young girls more aware of nakedness as something other than just plain nakedness, ykwim? Because we can't just POOF change our society into one that separates everyday nakedness from sexualized nakedness, it's important that everyone has a safe space to change.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loveandgarbage*
> 
> This is why we come and leave in swim trunks when we go swimming. My kids don't care being a little wet and if we go somewhere afterward, nbd, swim trunks look like shorts anyway. My older son, because is he tall for his age, has been mistaken for 1-3 years older since he was a toddler. Because I want to be respectful of other women/girls we don't use the women's changing room together. I personally don't have an issue with changing in front of boys say under the age of 10, but that's just me and I understand everyone has different feelings on this.
> 
> ...


But by age 10 many boys are starting puberty and may see the females in the gym in a sexual way! And what about my 9 year old daughter, who is starting to develop, shouldn't SHE have privacy from same age boys?


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## loveandgarbage (Feb 5, 2008)

I just said what *I* was personally comfortable with (and really just threw an age out there that was before *most* boys go through puberty-- maybe 10 is too old for that estimate, you're right) and ended my post with saying that EVERYONE should have a safe space. I should've elaborated. I just don't have a "solution" to this problem-- unless every dressing room has several personal/private changing rooms. So we're on the same page.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

The pool here you are not allowed to leave the pool area/locker rooms in swim clothes. you are expected to change before leaving because you have to go through the entire building, including up the stairs to leave.


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## ChelseaV (Jul 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loveandgarbage*
> 
> I just said what *I* was personally comfortable with (and really just threw an age out there that was before *most* boys go through puberty-- maybe 10 is too old for that estimate, you're right) and ended my post with saying that EVERYONE should have a safe space. I should've elaborated. I just don't have a "solution" to this problem-- unless every dressing room has several personal/private changing rooms. So we're on the same page.


The culture has changed. I went with my dad or brothers in the their locker room with them until I was 9, but today that would probably be considered lewd.

And would definitely want boys that age around when I am showering.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

This hits fairly close to home for me because my son is now 6 and the place where I take him for swimming lessons does not have a family changing room.

I take him to the women's bathroom if it's just me and him and if we're with DH, he goes with DH of course.

Just a couple of weeks ago, he asked why there had to be a separation between men and women when it comes to bathroom and I frankly did not know how to answer other than, "as we get older, we tend to get more modest about our bodies." - of course this does not explain why women aren't that modest in the women's locker room.

But he accepted that explanation for now.

But to answer the OP, I absolutely DO NOT feel comfortable with DS going into the men's room by himself. We try to be as quick as possible in the women's locker room and try to situate ourselves in a corner.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Just yesterday we were guests at a friend's pool and the posted sign said that all boys over 3 must use the men's locker room. I had my 3 kid with me, 10 and 7 year old girls and 4 yo boy. My older girls saw the sign and were all "DS can't go in there, what do we do." I told them, it wasn't safe for him to go in the men's room by himself, so we would just walk quickly through the ladies room (we were already changed). I wasn't worried about molestors really...just him getting lost and not finding his way out.. The locker rooms there are big, and there are some turns and to find the pool you have to follow the signs. He obviously can't read, and we had never been there before, so I wasn't about to send a 4-yo into an unfamiliar place to find his way through a pretty big locker room where you'd have to follow signs. No one said anything to us, but I did feel bad breaking the rules in front of my kids, but I felt it was unavoidable. We were with friends, but they were all moms/daughters ..no other boys at all that could have walked him through the men's locker room, so I felt I had no choice.

Personally, I feel like a more fair rule would be for no kids under 8 to be in the opposite sex locker room, as by 8, I think I would feel more coming a child into the men's room alone, but of course that could depend on the child as well..


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## tremill (Sep 28, 2012)

As a guy I have been in restrooms and public showers when men have brought their daughters in. It is somewhat unnerving especially if you are undressed or standing at a urinal. The university where I went to school has an aquatic center adjacent to the p.e. building. Families of students, faculty and staff are allowed to use the pool on the weekends. The lockerrooms are designed for students so the mens lockerroom has a shower area that is not private. There are showers along one wall and stalls along the other that have no curtains. In the middle are four columns with four showerheads. Most guys simply shower in the middle area. Sometimes dads will walk in with kids in tow including girls from toddler age to about 8. There are naked dads with naked daughters around other naked men. I had never seen anything like that until I started attending school and using the lockerroom. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't subject my daughter to that scene if I had one. I think people who use their assigned lockerrooms or restrooms should have some expectation of privacy. I don't think it's right for people to impose their will on others because of their own precautions or paranoia. A 10 year old girl or grown woman shouldn't have to worry about beeing seen undressed by a 10 year old boy in a womens restroom or shower. Afterall it is designed for females. Same applies for men. If a parent doesn't feel comfortable sending their child into the restroom or lockerroom alone the onus is on them to make other arrangements, or at the very least get an ok from the people who may be in there at the time. To just say I'm bringing my opposite sex child in here and I don't care what you think is wrong to me. I don't ever recall going in the women's restroom with my mother. I would not have wanted to. I thought the boys who did were soft and real mamas boys. A 10 year old boy does not need to be in the restroom with his mother. I would have gladly liked the opportunity to see some of the women I knew and girls that I had crushes on at that age undressed which is why I would have had no business being in there. It would have been like being in a candy shop. Just being honest as a male for those who think their sons are so innocent at that age and were talking 25-30 years ago. That would have been weird for me especially because I was beginning to show interest in girls at that age. As for women who peek in the men's restroom or glare at men who are entering because their sons are in there, how would you like it if some man were standing outside the women's restroom glaring at you because his daughter was in there or peeking inside talking to her, or better yet going in to check on her? You would be on the phone calling the cops to report a strange man lurking outside the women's restroom.


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## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

TCMoulton said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> _I also wouldn't want my own child to feel uncomfortable undressing in front of others. Especially if there was even the slightest chance that another kid that might be watching could be in her school. She'd have been mortified._
> 
> This happened to my daughter last May and she was absolutely mortified. Our health club has a rule that if your opposite sex child is over 3 you must use the family locker room and generally it is not ever a problem. Until last May. My DD's and I walked into the women's locker room to change and we immediately saw a boy from my older daughter's class in school (8 years old - the end of 2nd grade) standing completely naked in the middle of the locker room waiting for his mom, who was on her cell phone, to get the shower ready for him. My daughter was so uncomfortable and bolted out of the locker room. Thankfully the girls had their suits on under their clothes so we just stayed by the pool and I waited for my husband to join us so that I could go to the adult only locker room to change since I was very uncomfortable changing infront of a boy who I would be interacting with in the classroom just days later. I did report the mom to membership - there was absolutely no reason to her son to have been in the women's locker room when the family locker room was just a few more feet down the hall.


Do you not feel bad for the boy?


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## Letitia (Aug 27, 2009)

The boy is probably 15 now. It's a very old thread.


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