# Are you saying



## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

If you say that it irratates you if people don't breastfeed and circ, does that mean that you are calling the women who DO *bad moms*?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.

I agree.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Ditto ThreeBeans and Jessy.


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## mummyto3girls (May 13, 2007)

Agree with everyone here.
And the breastfeeding thing, isn't that the reason we have breasts?? To feed and nourish our babies for their first months and years or life??


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I hesitate to call someone who makes bad choices a bad mother. Breastfeeding and circ isn't all there is to life.


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## libranbutterfly (Jan 12, 2007)

They are not necessarily bad moms, I try to think of them as ill-informed. It does make me mad that my SIL's both said "they couldn't BF, they didn't have any milk" even after I took them to LLL and was there when they had their babies to help.







: Then of course, they were SO engorged when their milk came in, but they were DETERMINED that it was too late then to even try







: So now every time I BF Lexi, in front of them, I hear "I wish I could BF, but I just didn't have my milk" or "If I had known that my milk wasn't supposed to come in before I had the baby, I would have BF" In most other regards, however, I know they try their best with their kids.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.









:

If a woman still decides to circ after knowing all the facts then yes she is being a bad mom. Because she is not doing the most important job she will ever have to protect her son.


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## Leylla (Aug 22, 2006)

It would really depend on the background....

W/ DS1 I was VERY ignorant of IRC. DS3 is uncut though. (DS2 was circed before we gained custody)

W/ DS1, he has a metabolic disorder (PKU) which neccesitates SOME use of formula.

Now, if I had known about IRC, and he didn't have PKU, maybe it looks a little different.

IRC is one issue.....

BFing....there are just SO many "ifs" in the equation. Is there sexual abuse in the past, are there supply issues, was bad information/advice given, does the child have a metabolic issue, is mom on contraindicated meds, has mom had breast reduction/mestectomy, etc. I couldn't ever look one of these moms in the face and call them a bad mom....just couldn't. It's so different than, "it's too much work" or "formula is just as good







:







: " Two whole differnent ball parks...(imo)

Steph


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I agree with you, Steph.









I feel nothing but compassion for people who circed before they knew the truth, and I am truly happy we live in a world where there IS a substitute for breastmilk so that babies who truly can't get it, or might die without out, can still go on to live happy healthy lives.

When I think 'bad' I think the woman who says, "Oh, I *know* it's 'supposedly' better but I don't want to be tied down to the baby" or some such ridiculous nonsense? I'm not thinking of low-supply mamas, or babies with PKU, etc.

As far as women who go ahead and circ their sons for vanity? Well...see my signature!!!


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Until I have the ability to hear another persons thoughts, while being strapped to them
for days on end, I couldn't call another person a "bad mom". Not for any choice they
have made. Bad choices, bad decisions, I can count my own, but I'm not comfortable
counting others. Especially when it comes to parenting.

Besides how many "bad choices" does it take to be a "bad mom"?

Now if we're talking politics thats a whole other story....


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.









:


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

No. don't. Moms making ill-informed, selfish, or misguided choices, maybe. But I have bigger fish to fry than to go labeling anyone else a bad mother. Judge not, ya know?


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I don't know how to answer your poll. I feel very strongly about breastfeeding and circumcision, but I don't feel comfortable answering that I think they're bad mothers. I also don't want to just completely let them off the hook by saying their not without at least saying they're making bad choices with long term consequences for their child.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I know some GREAT moms who didnt/dont BF, and I know of at least one pretty horrible mom by all standards who did BF. Dont know about the circ we dont really takl about it. But I would never call a mom who chose not to BF a bad mom.


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## jaxinsmom (Jul 24, 2006)

I find it frustrating when these two things (BF and circ) are lumped together.

For me, breastfeeding is the best choice, but I can understand other moms who give up and choose to FF. (understand, not agree with). I had a girlfriend who desperatly wanted to bf, and tried for the first month but decided to stop when she was pulling scabs out of her daughers mouth. Now, obviously she knew the benefit, but choose to ff instead. Her choice.

However, I have no understanding/sympathy/empathy for a parent who has the information and still chooses to circ her son. Thats abuse. Plain and simple. There will never be a situation a mother could describe that would make me think "humm, ok I can see how that makes sense, or is a good decision".

Like I said, the two should not be lumped together.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Nope.

I wish everyone would do those things but I am sure other people wish I would make other choices with my parenting.


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## Learnintolaugh (Nov 9, 2006)

Since I have not yet been handed my ‘Perfect Parent’ badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent’s desires before their child’s needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Since I have not yet been handed my 'Perfect Parent' badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.


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## KimProbable (Jun 22, 2005)

I wasn't an informed parent when DS was born and I had him circ'd. I then went on to BF him for almost 3 years though. Would they cancel each other out and make me a neutral parent?







:

No, I don't think either factor determine if someone is a "bad" parent. (Yes, I'm grumpy and couldn't just sate my opinion without making it personal.







)


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I think it is a choice. I try not to judge. BUT, I get really irritated by parents who complain about the cost of formula and Pampers, but weren't willing to breast feed, or cloth diaper.

Most new parents will listen to their doctor, I can't fault them for doing what they believe is the right thing.

Circumcision is a choice too. Most parents are told that it is the healthiest thing for your son. The pediatrition tells us this. So, why would I expect parents to think like I do. I rarely assume that I have the only right answer.

I don't think that there is only one right parenting style. Each family needs to choose what works for them. Some parents are too extreme in one direction or another, but as long as the kids all get to a healthy, productive adulthood, that is what is important in the long run. (to me)


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I stopped BFing when my son was 4 months old. He is not circumcised.
I have my own reasons for not BFing and it would be nice if I didn't feel like I had to explain WHY to everyone or be judged.
It really sucks to get the evil eye from other parents bc you are giving your child a bottle.
There are so many good explanations for not BFing, but I have never heard a good explanation for cutting off part of a baby's penis!!

AND as a mother who did stop BFing early it REALLY sucks to be lumped in with people who circumcise!!!

I swear there is so much judgment going on here. Is this really the best thing to talk about???!!!!


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

I don't think they are bad mothers; I think that they are making poor decisions.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Since I have not yet been handed my 'Perfect Parent' badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
I don't think they are bad mothers; I think that they are making poor decisions.


Sometimes it isn't always a poor decision. I have had friends who had very good reasons to stop breast feeding. It isn't always easy for everyone. I have a friend that was beside herself over breast feeding. She was crying all the time. Her son wouldn't latch on, or he would and it would hurt, and bleed. The mom was so stressed over breast feeding, that she was doing more harm than good. After three months, she gave up, and started formula feeding. Her stress level dropped, she was happier, and the baby was happier. So, in some cases I think it is the right choice.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Sometimes it isn't always a poor decision. I have had friends who had very good reasons to stop breast feeding. It isn't always easy for everyone. I have a friend that was beside herself over breast feeding. She was crying all the time. Her son wouldn't latch on, or he would and it would hurt, and bleed. The mom was so stressed over breast feeding, that she was doing more harm than good. After three months, she gave up, and started formula feeding. Her stress level dropped, she was happier, and the baby was happier. So, in some cases I think it is the right choice.

Exactly. There are MILLIONS of problems that can happen with BFing. I think that some mom's think they are superior just because they have been blessed enough to be able to BF.
They think it's the same for everyone and the moms who didn't BF could have if they would have just put in an effort...


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Since I have not yet been handed my 'Perfect Parent' badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.

Yep.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I tried to clarify that in my earlier post....breastfeeding and circumcision are two completely different critters.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i know good moms who have circed and forual feed

but

it really fustrates me when someone with teh EDUCATION and the data -- makes poor choices that are not the best possible choice for the child.

i understand there are always reasons -- however -- TO ME -- sometimes the reasons seem very selfish and "not good enough" when compared with the child's need and best intrest. but i am very much in the campe that i come last and my child comes first in every thing, all the time, no matter what -- otherwise i would not have sought to have him......not everyone sees it that way.

i have dealt with enough truely bad moms and abused kids to know that while it is unquestionably better to bf if you can (biological child, no serious medical issues in mom or child) FF is not abusive......


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Exactly. I think that some mom's think they are superior just because they have been blessed enough to be able to BF.
They think it's the same for everyone and the moms who didn't BF could have if they would have just put in an effort...

That has been my experience too.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs.

My mother was a bad mother and it was by no means a _conscious choice_. She was (and is) mentally ill and is incapable of being emotionally attached to another human being. So, not a choice for her, but she couldn't be a good mother.

She was a LLL Leader, by the way, and didn't believe in circ'ing. That doesn't make a person a good parent.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

also

i know at least one mom -- lives near a freind and i have met a few times -- who did not cir and bf well past 3 and TN and she is one of the wrost parens i know -- screaming, filthy house, hitting the kids.......


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

I think circ and breastfeeding are sooo different it is impossible to compare them. Yeah it _irritates_ me when people don't bf for no reason other than "it's disgusting". Others really can't bf. I wouldn't say either was a "bad mom".

I have a hard time with circ though. How can anyone not instinctively know that it is bad to remove half your son's penis? Some even do it again to a second son. I don't get that, sorry. Even if you have no education. Once should be enough to make you _know_ it's wrong.

I didn' vote though - none of the answers really fitted!


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Exactly. I think that some mom's think they are superior just because they have been blessed enough to be able to BF.
They think it's the same for everyone and the moms who didn't BF could have if they would have just put in an effort...
I have been very blessed to bf -- 18 month and counting -- as was my younger sister (on for 20 months, one for 4 years)

BUT

it is cuz we worked our butts off to do it. SIs much more than i. it was VERY VERY hard, we faced a lot of challanges -- but we stuck to our guns, refused all forumal and fought with doctors, ped and nurses to ensure our 3 kids (two had nurseing issues) got nothing but mom's milk.....

i can not address people i do not know -- but i DO know moms' who have "given up" on BF without putting in 1/15 the effort i did much less the effort my sister did --- fine that is their choice....but to listen to them formual feed and say "Oh i just couldn't breastfeed" is BS. they did not try to bf......

BF vs FF is a mother's choice -- and she can make whatever choice she wants -- but don't then hid behind the lie of not being "able" to like she is some poor victim -- unless you REALLY put forth the effort (sis worked with a sheech therpist to teach DN 1 to suck, swallow and then breath in a patterne.....).

that is my gripe -- ff if you choose, but then don't lie about it.

again, this only address moms i know personally -- not a blanket stament about people i have never met.

Aimee


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I have been very blessed to bf --
<snip>
i can not address people i do not know -- but i DO know moms' who have "given up" on BF without putting in 1/15 the effort i did much less the effort my sister did --- fine that is their choice....but to listen to them formual feed and say "Oh i just couldn't breastfeed" is BS. they did not try to bf......

You were "blessed" to breast feed.

Maybe "Oh I just couldn't breastfeed" is their polite way of saying
it's none of our business.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Since I have not yet been handed my 'Perfect Parent' badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. *My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.*

(bolding is mine).








: you said this much better than I did in my first post. Thank you.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I have been very blessed to bf -- 18 month and counting -- as was my younger sister (on for 20 months, one for 4 years)

BUT

it is cuz we worked our butts off to do it. SIs much more than i. it was VERY VERY hard, we faced a lot of challanges -- but we stuck to our guns, refused all forumal and fought with doctors, ped and nurses to ensure our 3 kids (two had nurseing issues) got nothing but mom's milk.....

i can not address people i do not know -- but i DO know moms' who have "given up" on BF without putting in 1/15 the effort i did much less the effort my sister did --- fine that is their choice....but to listen to them formual feed and say "Oh i just couldn't breastfeed" is BS. they did not try to bf......

BF vs FF is a mother's choice -- and she can make whatever choice she wants -- but don't then hid behind the lie of not being "able" to like she is some poor victim -- unless you REALLY put forth the effort (sis worked with a sheech therpist to teach DN 1 to suck, swallow and then breath in a patterne.....).

that is my gripe -- ff if you choose, but then don't lie about it.

again, this only address moms i know personally -- not a blanket stament about people i have never met.

Aimee

And I agree with that very much as well. It makes people question whether or not I really "Tried" because a lot of moms do use that as a cop out. They don;t just say "It wasn't for me" but instead blame it on their bodies. That is very frustrating for people like me who had a real struggle.

I am really hoping that things will go better for me this time. I am starting to do research NOW in case we have the same problems.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Maybe "Oh I just couldn't breastfeed" is their polite way of saying
it's none of our business.
well maybe on a few -- but these are -- the ones i talk about -- i know -- and they "asked for adcive' and so on -- so with 3 of them i DO know what they tried and they are looking to me to "confrim" that they "can't"


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aliviasmom* 
If you say that it irratates you if people don't breastfeed and circ, does that mean that you are calling the women who DO *bad moms*?

The only thing that irritates me more than women in an affluent society _choosing_ to eschew the information that's widely available re; the two choices listed and thus _choosing_ things that are oft _not_ in their babies' best interest out of personal convenience or preference or pressure from others, *is:* the judgement then applied by other women, who may have made the "right" choices, but whose need to stand in judgement of others or lump people together in fruitless, insignificant categories... (why not cloth diapering? why not organic foods? why not any other NFL/AP generalization?) stamps out the "rightness" or righteousness of their "good" parenting choices.

Calling people bad mothers when there are an inestimable array of circumstances surrounding their choices is, well, _*BAD*_.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
well maybe on a few -- but these are -- the ones i talk about -- i know -- and they "asked for adcive' and so on -- so with 3 of them i DO know what they tried and they are looking to me to "confrim" that they "can't"

I understood that you were in all probability talking about people that you
personally know. But I wonder if because you choose the struggle if that
means everybody else needs to. Even if it was even a slight struggle and
not all that inconvenient for somebody. It's their choice to quit after they
tried, and their choice to say "Oh I just couldn't breastfeed", even if they
didn't try as hard as others.
I'm confused why it could cause you so much energy of thought when you
say

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
"BF vs FF is a mother's choice -- and she can make whatever choice she wants -- but don't then hid behind the lie of not being "able" to like she is some poor victim -- "

Who is to judge if she is a victim or not. Tried hard enough or not. I'm
not judging you and your statements. I just would hate for a Mom who
"tried" and "gave up" to come read this thread and feel like a "bad mom".
Which was the subject of the OP. So to keep reading, and to see your
post, if I had failed at breastfeeding. I might feel that now not only do I
have to defend my choice, but that I'm seen as a pretending to be a victim
as well.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine* 
Ditto ThreeBeans and Jessy.









:


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I have been very blessed to bf -- 18 month and counting -- as was my younger sister (on for 20 months, one for 4 years)

BUT

it is cuz we worked our butts off to do it. SIs much more than i. it was VERY VERY hard, we faced a lot of challanges -- but we stuck to our guns, refused all forumal and fought with doctors, ped and nurses to ensure our 3 kids (two had nurseing issues) got nothing but mom's milk.....

i can not address people i do not know -- but i DO know moms' who have "given up" on BF without putting in 1/15 the effort i did much less the effort my sister did --- fine that is their choice....but to listen to them formual feed and say "Oh i just couldn't breastfeed" is BS. they did not try to bf......

BF vs FF is a mother's choice -- and she can make whatever choice she wants -- but don't then hid behind the lie of not being "able" to like she is some poor victim -- unless you REALLY put forth the effort (sis worked with a sheech therpist to teach DN 1 to suck, swallow and then breath in a patterne.....).

that is my gripe -- ff if you choose, but then don't lie about it.

again, this only address moms i know personally -- not a blanket stament about people i have never met.

Aimee

Wow...Some mothers, whether you know them or not, truly CAN NOT bf. I am so glad that you are able to do so but I couldnt. It isnt a cop out, it wasnt b/c I was lazy, didnt want to, thought it was gross, I really wanted to bf but my body wouldnt produce enough to feed my twins. I did have a lactation consultant, I used a medela pump and a hospital pump, I pumped every 2 hours around the clock, I tried all the herbs like fenugrek, mother's tea, etc. My dd's also never learned quite how to latch on even with the lactation's advice and help (they were preemies) Nothing worked. I tried for 4 months and finally started to dry up and had to quit. It sounds like you are painted all ffing mothers with the same brush stroke just based on your own personal experiences.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learnintolaugh* 
Since I have not yet been handed my 'Perfect Parent' badge I will withhold judgment. Bad parenting to me is a CONSISTENT and CONSCIOUS choice over a span of time to put the parent's desires before their child's needs. Many parents can love their child with all their hearts and be willing to walk through fire for them but still make a bad choice due to lack of information, stress, depression and a host of other issues. My job is to parent my children, not determine if everyone else is living up to my standards.

Exactly. Many wonderful, loving, supportive mothers FF and circ. And I'm sure there are screwed up, mean, and selfish mothers who don't.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
Who is to judge if she is a victim or not. Tried hard enough or not. I'm
not judging you and your statements. I just would hate for a Mom who
"tried" and "gave up" to come read this thread and feel like a "bad mom".

I am the mom who tried with all my heart and cried for hours that I could not breastfeed. And it hurts me still to hear others talk about all of these women who gave up so easily. How do you know it was easy to give up? And why does someone else get to judge if I tried hard enough.

I kid you not, at a LLL meeting, I made the whole room cry with my story. Then someone said to me, "It is ok, no one is going to think you are a bad mom." I wanted to answer "No crap, I never doubted that. And I really don't care what self righteous people think of me anyway. But I wanted to breastfeed my baby." The implication was that I was not one of those moms who gave up too early, and that is just so snotty.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm not sure how I would define good or bad parenting. Has a person, through lack of thinking, done something to damage a child? Is that a bad mother? Where is the dad?

Was my MIL a bad mother for having her son's penis mutilated? I think she had no way of knowing the truth of what she was doing to him, but I also think that she wouldn't have questioned authority anyway. If a doctor told her to do it, she'd do it, even if she thought it was a bad thing. That part is the bad parenting, IMO. She loved her son, but she failed to protect him because of a particular approach she had to parenting, which was basically to not think but just do.


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## McMandy (May 18, 2007)

I don't cloth-diaper, which surprises a lot of my friends who think I'm pretty crunchy (I wouldn't call myself crunchy, but I guess some would).

Personally, I have the hardest time keeping up with day to day laundry (I'm always behind). Adding diapers to the mix??? Yeah, I already know how that would turn out.

I'd love to do it, I'm not against it, I think it's great- but I realize that it would end up stressing me out just trying to keep up with it.

It is nice to have several on hand, for those days when I do run out of sposies.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

This is a toughie, making an informed choice is different than just not knowing better. But choosing to not do research is another thing....I dont call them bad mothers, I know some great, loving mothers that ff, cio and spank.







: The kids are wonderful, the family is very close knit, and I admire some of the other qualities about them. Their choices are radically different than mine, but they are not bad mothers. *I* think they are making bad choices. Same when my 2 yo decides to poop on the floor and paint the walls with it. Bad choice, not bad kid.


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

I've always felt that its pretty laughable and really shallow for someone to judge others for being a 'good' or 'bad' mom based on something like BF. I find it so ridiculous that I just cant help wanting to laugh for real- its as if they _know_ everyone and everything they possibly can ever know to make such a presumption.









You know, I really regretted allowing myself to be pressured by such mums when I was a new mummy to my DD. I totally bought the whole good-mums-BF-if-you-dont-it-ONLY-means-you-dont-want-to crap. Yeah right.









Enough said.







:


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.









: I don't judge them to be "bad mothers" though so I voted no. I judge their choice to be bad or abusive, but not the mama herself. I'm talking about fully informed mamas who had no medical reasons for not bfing or for circumcising and yet CHOSE to do either or both anyhow.

love and peace.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

I dont consider anyone a bad mother just b/c they chose not to bf or circ. That is their choice, whether it be informed or not. Another note that others will probably think "bad mom" is I personally know 2 people, 1 just delivered a healthy baby boy a few months ago and the other is due in July. Both of these mothers were told that they could never have children, one b/c of HPV, the other b/c she didnt ovulate and other "female" problems (they are both young, early 20's) The first mother conceived and still smoked cigs throughout her pregnancy, her baby shower was even at a BAR!!! She is bf and still smoking! The other is still smoking despite being pregnant. Would you consider these mothers bad? IMO, they arent, they just made poor choices. Then you have people like me who did everything right during her pregnancy and delivered preemie babies and worked my a$$ off trying to bf before I dried up and had NO CHOICE but to quit. Does it bother me, damn right it does but I would never call them bad mothers. They love their children but are making poor decisions that they dont fully understand how it will effect their children....

I dont think anyone should judge another person on their decisions unless it will intentionally harm their children. FF will not harm a child, is it the healthiest way, no but some dont have a choice but they shouldnt be judged for that. If I was beating my children bloody and locking them in closets for days with no food, that is a bad mom...


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

No way. It's not my place to judge another Mom and label her "bad" .. who knows her situation?

I had my son circ'd, I greatly regret it, but I was totally uneducated and had a husband at the time who wouldn't consider anything else.

My son was a preemie and I did the very best I could to breastfeed him when he didn't have a sucking reflex. Nipple shields, LC (who wasn't much help) and as he lost more and more weight I eventually gave into giving him bottles. I pumped and bottle fed him for 6 months, at which point my supply with the pump just couldn't keep up. I still regret DEEPLY not breastfeeding him and still deal with guilt .. like other people have bf'd a preemie, what did I do wrong??

So I guess in some people's eyes, I'm a "bad" Mom because I bottle fed, used some formula after 6 months, and my son is cut. But you know what? I think I'm a pretty damn good Mama who also co-slept, bottle fed as though we were nursing skin on skin until he weaned, treats my son with gentle respect and puts him as #1 in my life.

I've also seen firsthand a Mother who bf and did not circ and she was far from Mother of the Year, if you know what I mean. There is so much more to it than that.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i know moms who truely could not BF -- i also know a lot of mom who tried for 3 days, supplmenting with formual the whole time -- and now whine that they can't do it, their milk never came in and yadda yadda yadda like i should feel sorry for them.

sorry i am not that stupid.

i really don't care if they FF -- what i do care is the "oh poor me i could BF" BS that thay spew out -- often to pregant moms setting others up to fail...and they act it is some amazing feat that I BF -- like i ONLY do it cuz it was easy..... to me that 1. set other woman up to fail (see Sally couldn't it, i might not be able to either, it is so common for moms not to have milk) and 2. discounts the great effeort i went though on behalf of my child

to OP i think ther eis a difference between a bad mom (ir an abusive one) and one that i simply will not allow to baby sit or be a strong factor in my child's life.

yes i do have freinds who did not BF, and i am fine with that and with them being around T. but i am not ok with the moms i know who didn't try -- abnd now play the poor me victim card.

AImee


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

So is it agreed we need to differentiate between a bad choice or even an abusive choice, and a bad MOTHER?

I know good moms who chose to circumcise. I do. I hate that they did it. I think they made an abusive choice. But they are otherwise good, self-sacrificing moms.

It doesn't make me any less sad, though.

(I'm deliberately not discussing breastfeeding cause it's just a whole nother kettle of fish)


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## miss_sonja (Jun 15, 2003)

They may or may not be bad moms, but they've made, imho, bad choices. That's different from saying someone is a bad mom or a bad person.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaxinsmom* 
I find it frustrating when these two things (BF and circ) are lumped together.

For me, breastfeeding is the best choice, but I can understand other moms who give up and choose to FF. (understand, not agree with). I had a girlfriend who desperatly wanted to bf, and tried for the first month but decided to stop when she was pulling scabs out of her daughers mouth. Now, obviously she knew the benefit, but choose to ff instead. Her choice.

However, I have no understanding/sympathy/empathy for a parent who has the information and still chooses to circ her son. Thats abuse. Plain and simple. There will never be a situation a mother could describe that would make me think "humm, ok I can see how that makes sense, or is a good decision".

Like I said, the two should not be lumped together.









:

They are not in the same league, as far as I am concerned.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kkeris* 
I've always felt that its pretty laughable and really shallow for someone to judge others for being a 'good' or 'bad' mom based on something like BF. I find it so ridiculous that I just cant help wanting to laugh for real- its as if they _know_ everyone and everything they possibly can ever know to make such a presumption.









You know, I really regretted allowing myself to be pressured by such mums when I was a new mummy to my DD. I totally bought the whole good-mums-BF-if-you-dont-it-ONLY-means-you-dont-want-to crap. Yeah right.









Enough said.







:

















: I am totally with you.

Shay


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

I vote 'other' as it's all about context, education and intention.

I say this with sadness as I *did* judge a good friend who had BFing problems the first time around (not an issue for me) then didn't bother trying the second time around (not even colostrum) and was a leetle bit self-righteous about it with pro-formula propaganda.







:


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

If a mother consistently makes the decision that is easiest for herself, regardless of what is best for her child, THEN, she is a bad mother in my opinion.

BF, Circ, Vax and all that other stuff is accepted in society. I don't think those things make a mother bad. It's all of the stuff that goes with mothering a child daily...taking care of illnesses, feeding healthy foods (not easy), affection and making the decisions that you truly feel are best, not easiest that make a good mother.

Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)


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## rharr! (Nov 9, 2005)

I voted 'OTHER'

I think a more effective poll would have seperated breastfeedin and circumscision.

I do think mothers who choose to mutilate thier children are bad. I think the fathers aunts, uncles, in-laws, grandparents and any one else who supports circumcision is a bad person.

Breastfeeding, in my mind, is not on the same level of harm. I do think mothers owe it to thier children to give it a decent shot. But I don't think formula feeding is evil.


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## rharr! (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
I've also seen firsthand a Mother who bf and did not circ and she was far from Mother of the Year, if you know what I mean. There is so much more to it than that.


oh, that is a really good point. I knew a mother who did not circ her youngest and breastfed, but dang she was one awful person and a nasty mother.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Reading many of the posts in this thread have bad me feel incredibly sad. I can not fathom
for the life of me limiting people in my life over the their choice to breastfeed their child. I
couldn't care less what their reasons where. Have we seriously come to a point in our society
that we feel it's that easy to judge another's parenting? I would have lost out on some really
special relationships in my life if I had limited my friendships in this manner. How can we
teach our children to except people of all religions and colors and regions of the world if we
are so petty that we would allow breastfeeding to become a factor in friendships or how much
we trust another human being.

We do not have a special window into another persons parenting. How they interact with their
child when their alone. In those special precious moments playing on the floor or laughing
until we feel like we can't breathe. So then when a woman says "Oh I tried to breastfeed and
I couldn't do it" it's actually acceptable to limit your time with that person? To blame them for
not being as strong as we are or not putting in the effort that we did? Are we actually serious?

So really how are we expecting our children to not be judgmental against others of different
view points when we are validating cutting people from our lives for one choice.

I'm not choleric over this issue. Just very very sad.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

No, but they made some bad decisions.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkingirl71* 
I am the mom who tried with all my heart and cried for hours that I could not breastfeed. And it hurts me still to hear others talk about all of these women who gave up so easily. How do you know it was easy to give up? *And why does someone else get to judge if I tried hard enough.
*
I kid you not, at a LLL meeting, I made the whole room cry with my story. Then someone said to me, "It is ok, no one is going to think you are a bad mom." I wanted to answer "No crap, I never doubted that. And I really don't care what self righteous people think of me anyway. But I wanted to breastfeed my baby." The implication was that I was not one of those moms who gave up too early, and that is just so snotty.

(Bolding mine)

Pumpkin it really isn't about if somebody else gets to judge, it's that some feel
entitled to judge. It's not about you, it's about them. Because seriously if anybody
has judged you or thought you gave up too early, they have far too much time on
their hands to actually give your choice that much thought. I firmly believe that
those who can judge you for this are way more unhappy with themselves than they
are with you, because only a person so bitter could be so mean.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
So really how are we expecting our children to not be judgmental against others of different
view points when we are validating cutting people from our lives for one choice.



I don't expect my children to not judge others. There is a time and place for judgement. Not all judgement is bad. It's how we, as humans, decide what to do and what not do to.

Oh, and to clarify (cause we always have to online) I'm not talking about women who had difficulties breastfeeding. I'm talking about those who *choose* not to.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

My mother didn't breastfeed any of her children (she was worried about not being able to tell how much we got) and circ'd my brother (I don't know why). She's a FANTASTIC mom. Were those two decisions good choices? No. Has every decision* I've* made in my life been a good one? Nope.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
So really how are we expecting our children to not be judgmental against others of different
view points when we are validating cutting people from our lives for one choice.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
I don't expect my children to not judge others. There is a time and place for judgement. Not all judgement is bad. It's how we, as humans, decide what to do and what not do to.

Oh, and to clarify (cause we always have to online) I'm not talking about women who had difficulties breastfeeding. I'm talking about those who *choose* not to.

So if my dd chooses someday to limit her time with people who choose to be Muslim
then that should be okay too. Let me clarify, I'm not talking about people who had
difficulties with being Christian. I'm talking about those who "choose" not to be.


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## pdxmomazon (Oct 13, 2005)

Interesting...

Our friends just had a baby boy- their second and last child, and despite the fact that the circumcision of their first son was horrible (emotionally and undoubtedly physically for their son) I believe they are choosing to have their second son circumcised. They are Jewish and it's important to them.

I went to the Bris of their first son, but having given it a lot of thought, I won't be attending the Bris of their second son. Are they bad parents? Absolutely not.

I agree with the pp. Judge not.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
Reading many of the posts in this thread have bad me feel incredibly sad. I can not fathom
for the life of me limiting people in my life over the their choice to breastfeed their child. I
couldn't care less what their reasons where. Have we seriously come to a point in our society
that we feel it's that easy to judge another's parenting? I would have lost out on some really
special relationships in my life if I had limited my friendships in this manner. How can we
teach our children to except people of all religions and colors and regions of the world if we
are so petty that we would allow breastfeeding to become a factor in friendships or how much
we trust another human being.

We do not have a special window into another persons parenting. How they interact with their
child when their alone. In those special precious moments playing on the floor or laughing
until we feel like we can't breathe. So then when a woman says "Oh I tried to breastfeed and
I couldn't do it" it's actually acceptable to limit your time with that person? To blame them for
not being as strong as we are or not putting in the effort that we did? Are we actually serious?

So really how are we expecting our children to not be judgmental against others of different
view points when we are validating cutting people from our lives for one choice.

I'm not choleric over this issue. Just very very sad.

These are all excellent points and things I have often pondered as a member of this community.

I have come to the place after almost 16 years of parenting that if I find myself uber judgemental of others then maybe I need to look at myself.

To put a value judgement on someone because of how they feed or fed their child is ridiculous. Even circ is not a clear cut case because its still a widely accepted practice though we are moving away from it.

Shay


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
Even circ is not a clear cut case because its still a widely accepted practice though we are moving away from it.

Shay

No Pun Intended?


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I agreed earlier with the poster who said that she doesn't like it when women say that they tried and tried and BF didn't work, even though they never even put baby to the boob once. The only reason that stuff frustrates me is that people think that I didn't try, that I am just saying I did.

SO after thinking about it longer I realized that it I don't have a problem with women saying they tried when they didn't. What I have a problem with is all of the judgment around a total strangers decision to FF. Even if you know the person you still don't know what there struggles have actually been. I know a woman who was a single mama in her early 20's and had her first babe. She had very little support, and returned to work almost immediately. I remember her telling me about trying to BF the first few night but that it hurt, and the baby didn't seem to be getting any milk. She switched to FF. She is not a bad mom, I don;t even think she made a bad decision, she just did the best that she could in her situation. She was all alone with no support and a brand new baby. She is a really good mom and would do anything for her daughter.

Maybe if everyone quit judging women for whether they BF or FF then women wouldn't feel the need to lie and say that they tried. People are so judgmental that even if you say that you tried for 6 months straight they still think that you could have done better. can you imagine a woman actually having the courage to tell people that she chose FF because "That is just what works best for them"? I can tell you what would happen on MDC. She would get a HORRIBLE response.
There really isn't a way for a woman to say that she didn't want to BF without people thinking she is awful, so of course people lie about it.
Who wouldn't?

The whole problem is being created in places like this, where there are just all these perfect moms who need to size up all the other moms in the country instead of supporting them







:


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 

Maybe if everyone quit judging women for whether they BF or FF then women wouldn't feel the need to lie and say that they tried. People are so judgmental that even if you say that you tried for 6 months straight they still think that you could have done better. can you imagine a woman actually having the courage to tell people that she chose FF because "That is just what works best for them"? I can tell you what would happen on MDC. She would get a HORRIBLE response.
There really isn't a way for a woman to say that she didn't want to BF without people thinking she is awful, so of course people lie about it.
Who wouldn't?

The whole problem is being created in places like this, where there are just all these perfect moms who need to size up all the other moms in the country instead of supporting them







:









:







I so agree with this. I am amazed at how many women upon realizing that I nurse my dd give me their story about how they tried to BF. I'm like dudette, I really don't give a rat's behind but I think because of the judgement women feel like they gotta say something.

The thing is I'm nursing my 22 mos dd but guess what I did not nurse my 15 yo ds, why? I didn't know anything about BF'ing and no one told me, I had no education, and beleive me that humbles me. Its so easy to sit in judgement from our perches but we really are not in someone else's life or space. What is easy for one woman may be hard for another.

Frankly just because one woman lived with shredded bloody nipples on a 2 food diet for mos does not make it right for someone else. KWIM?

Shay


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
IMaybe if everyone quit judging women for whether they BF or FF then women wouldn't feel the need to lie and say that they tried. People are so judgmental that even if you say that you tried for 6 months straight they still think that you could have done better. can you imagine a woman actually having the courage to tell people that she chose FF because "That is just what works best for them"? I can tell you what would happen on MDC. She would get a HORRIBLE response.
There really isn't a way for a woman to say that she didn't want to BF without people thinking she is awful, so of course people lie about it.
Who wouldn't?

The whole problem is being created in places like this, where there are just all these perfect moms who need to size up all the other moms in the country instead of supporting them







:


Very good posting.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

My first ds is circ'ed because it didn't occur to me then that some people didn't do it. Ds2 isn't and future sons won't be.

All of my kids have been breastfed. It always made sense to me. But when I worked at WIC, I met lots of people who had misconceptions about breastfeeding, thought they couldn't when they could (smoked, took medication, had nipple rings...) or had absolutely no support for bf and couldn't navigate some difficulty and keep going.

On the other hand, I've met people who just chose not to breastfeed because they didn't want to. While it confuses me, I wouldn't call them bad mothers just based on that.

It's not that I don't jugde. There are people I consider bad parents. I'm just not willing to call bottlefeeders or people who circ unfit to parent based just on those choices.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
It's not that I don't jugde. There are people I consider bad parents. I'm just not willing to call bottlefeeders or people who circ unfit to parent based just on those choices.

I agree. A bad parent is someone that is consistently abusive and/or neglectful.

I think that a person that judges another parent based on one issue alone is probably very insecure. They want to judge themselves a good mother because they breastfeed, so someone who doesn't must be a bad mother.

But, there are also mothers who carry a lot of guilt, and they imagine that those that do things differently are judging them. I have a friend who talks about being intimidated by a certain type of mom, and things her child does (like not eating certain foods or potty training difficulties) making her feel like a "bad mom." She sees a lot of judgment where it ain't.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

But, there are also mothers who carry a lot of guilt, and they imagine that those that do things differently are judging them. I have a friend who talks about being intimidated by a certain type of mom, and things her child does (like not eating certain foods or potty training difficulties) making her feel like a "bad mom." She sees a lot of judgment where it ain't.
VERY TRUE

My best freind's mom, and my MIL -- are CONSTANTLY accuseing us of judgeing them as bad moms because we make differnt choices than the did (35 adn 41 years ago) -- god lord woman get over it. each tiem we do something differnt (bf, co-sleep, cd, limit vax, stay home, don't use bug spray, no soda for the BABIES....) they go off about how we must think they are horrible people, and how they are amazed we aren't all in jail or death they were such bad moms.... please. that is THEIR own guilt and insecurity.... NOT us manking ANY comments on them.

AImee


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think someone who CHOOSES to not breastfeed while being fully aware of the benefits is making a bad choice.

I think someone who CHOOSES to circumcise in the absence of medical necessity and while being aware of the truth about RIC is making an ABUSIVE choice.

I'm not sure how to answer your poll.

I agree. It's hard to say and dependent on the person. Obviously, if they beat their children and do the above, then I would say yes, they are a bad parent. But there is more to it than that for most people.

I do know a couple of people who are adamantly opposed to bf, and I certainly would not label "Supermoms", but they do love their children. I just feel sad for their children, honestly.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
I don't expect my children to not judge others. There is a time and place for judgement. Not all judgement is bad. It's how we, as humans, decide what to do and what not do to.

Oh, and to clarify (cause we always have to online) I'm not talking about women who had difficulties breastfeeding. I'm talking about those who *choose* not to.

And I agree. I am but human, and I judge people. I am not perfect. I certainly don't expect my children to be saints, only to be human and learn from their experiences.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
So if my dd chooses someday to limit her time with people who choose to be Muslim
then that should be okay too. Let me clarify, I'm not talking about people who had
difficulties with being Christian. I'm talking about those who "choose" not to be.

Breastfeeding and religion can not be used as analogies. It just doesn't work. Different planes of the universe. And seeing how I am not Christian I have no issues with someone choosing not to be.









I choose to be around people who share my parenting philosophies. Do I scream and run from others who parent different? No. However, I have the freedom to choose who I want in my circle of friendship and support. It's not just breastfeeders that do this. When I'm around moms who FF I usually get negative comments, disgusted looks, and sarcastic comments. Doesn't bother me....but you're not going to be in my close circle. Same goes with GD. I prefer to be with others who practice GD. I prefer others who practice AP. If that makes me a person who uses my judgement in a bad way....so be it. I don't agree but if others view me that way....ok. And I am entitled to decide for myself when I think someone makes a bad decision. What is important is how I treat the other person....not what I think.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
Breastfeeding and religion can not be used as analogies. It just doesn't work. Different planes of the universe. And seeing how I am not Christian I have no issues with someone choosing not to be.









I choose to be around people who share my parenting philosophies. Do I scream and run from others who parent different? No. However, I have the freedom to choose who I want in my circle of friendship and support. It's not just breastfeeders that do this. When I'm around moms who FF I usually get negative comments, disgusted looks, and sarcastic comments. Doesn't bother me....but you're not going to be in my close circle. Same goes with GD. I prefer to be with others who practice GD. I prefer others who practice AP. If that makes me a person who uses my judgement in a bad way....so be it. I don't agree but if others view me that way....ok. And I am entitled to decide for myself when I think someone makes a bad decision. What is important is how I treat the other person....not what I think.


I had no idea that there were people who would choose to not be friends with a woman simply because she FF.

That is too bad. You could be missing out on some great friendships. And just because a woman FF's doesn't mean she didn't want to BF.

The things I have learned on MDC!


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

: There is too much other important stuff going on in this great big world to sit in judgement of another parent's choice that I disagree with. It kills me how so many people here at MDC in particular screech about tolerance and how each person should march to the beat of their own drum, etc., however what they really mean is they tolerate those who think/act/do as they do, period. I find it amusing in a sad sort of way.

I always wonder how people don't get nosebleeds, hanging out in those ivory towers so much. Dang.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
Breastfeeding and religion can not be used as analogies. It just doesn't work. Different planes of the universe.

I wasn't comparing breastfeeding and religion. I used your exact wording to make a point at
how silly it would be if we limit our exposer to others based on one choice in their life.

I wasn't making fun of what you said. It was only to make a point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
I choose to be around people who share my parenting philosophies. Do I scream and run from others who parent different? No. However, I have the freedom to choose who I want in my circle of friendship and support. It's not just breastfeeders that do this. When I'm around moms who FF I usually get negative comments, disgusted looks, and sarcastic comments. Doesn't bother me....but you're not going to be in my close circle. Same goes with GD. I prefer to be with others who practice GD. I prefer others who practice AP. If that makes me a person who uses my judgement in a bad way....so be it. I don't agree but if others view me that way....ok. And I am entitled to decide for myself when I think someone makes a bad decision. What is important is how I treat the other person....not what I think.

I don't dispute anything you said in the above. My point was about limiting our time with
others for *one choice*. Not for how they treat us or their negative comments. I certainly
wouldn't want to be around somebody who was rude to me as well. To "prefer" to be around
certain types of people who are like us is to be human. I don't think anybody here wouldn't
understand that.

But to exclude people limited to one factor about them be it parent choices, religon, or
skin color I do feel is closed minded*. It's no different in my book to reject a friendship
with another simply based on them breastfeeding and not being friends with a person
simply because they are Muslim. Both are choices, personal choices.

My point wasn't that we should just except everybody for everything they think, choose,
speak. My point was that we shouldn't judge others on *one* choice they make.

I've seen so many judgments being thrown around this thread. Mothers being called "selfish"
for "not trying hard enough". That they are liars when they say they tried. That is why I felt
sad, why I posted my thoughts.

*(BTW Kleine Hexe I'm not calling you closed minded, I'm just replying my thoughts, but they
aren't directed at you.)







:


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I wasn't comparing breastfeeding and religion. I used your exact wording to make a point at
how silly it would be if we limit our exposer to others based on one choice in their life.

I wasn't making fun of what you said. It was only to make a point.

I don't dispute anything you said in the above. My point was about limiting our time with
others for *one choice*. Not for how they treat us or their negative comments. I certainly
wouldn't want to be around somebody who was rude to me as well. To "prefer" to be around
certain types of people who are like us is to be human. I don't think anybody here wouldn't
understand that.

But to exclude people limited to one factor about them be it parent choices, religon, or
skin color I do feel is closed minded*. It's no different in my book to reject a friendship
with another simply based on them breastfeeding and not being friends with a person
simply because they are Muslim. Both are choices, personal choices.

My point wasn't that we should just except everybody for everything they think, choose,
speak. My point was that we shouldn't judge others on *one* choice they make.

I've seen so many judgments being thrown around this thread. Mothers being called "selfish"
for "not trying hard enough". That they are liars when they say they tried. That is why I felt
sad, why I posted my thoughts.

*(BTW Kleine Hexe I'm not calling you closed minded, I'm just replying my thoughts, but they
aren't directed at you.)







:

It seems we understand each other perfectly.







You get what I am saying.

dubfam and Finch (since you two seem to be talking about me), I don't choose my friends based on one choice. There are some women who breastfeed and do not circ and yet I choose to not be friends with them for a multitude of other reasons. There is a woman I know who FF and I know what she did to try to breastfeed. I would not say she did not try hard enough. I would not refuse to be around her simply due to this. On that note, a college friend of mine chooses to not breastfeed because (and these are her words exactly), "it's disgusting....breasts are for sex" and "I wouldn't want a baby hanging off my boob. I don't understand how you can stand it. Ugh" or "My god, you're still doing THAT? Gross." Now, I have decided to stop calling her. My choice. I choose to not listen to that.

I think that breastfeeding is the better choice and that leaving a baby boy intact is his basic human right. If someone chooses to FF or circ I'd like to know why and if it does not jive with my philosophies I will happily go my way and you yours. If that puts me in an ivory tower then so be it. Besides, isn't that what MDC's stance is? Breastfeeding is best and RIC is not supported. Last time I checked it was.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

The first 3 months of breastfeeding our first child was the hardest thing I had ever done. Yet, I made it through and continued to have years of benefits from breastfeeding. I could say, "I didn't give up, so those who do are bad moms." But, I know all the advantages I had--my mom bfed, dh was incredibly supportive, I was a SAHM, I had access to LC's and LLL etc. Plus, I'm mentally and physically healthy . . . It was a struggle, but I definitely consider myself lucky to have the inner and outer resources to handle that kind of struggle.

As for RIC, I also feel blessed that ds is intact. I feel blessed to have encountered the information that changed the whole paradigm of circ. for me. I am lucky to have natural empathy, a strong sense of the personhood of babies, and a mind that goes out of the box. And, I'm grateful for a dh who has these attributes, and was able to face his own circ.

As for people who weren't as lucky with these two choices, they have a lifetime of millions of potentially wonderful interactions with their children ahead.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

You can say and believe breast is best and that RIC is bad, but that does not mean that mothers who FF or RIC are evil/bad mothers, and I think it's very poor form to automatically write a person off as an unworthy person or parent because of one choice. Sheesh. Such judgement. There's a HUGE difference between advocating for something and deciding those who do differently than what you advocate are "bad parents." What about people who say "I could never be friends with someone who had an abortion," or "I could never be friends with someone who is divorced," or "I could never be friends with someone who has been arrested." Lots of things happen in people's lives that _you_ weren't there for, don't know the circumstances, and have no right to so harshly judge. I think FF and RIC are certainly included in those things. Life is messy, no one is perfect, and I think it sucks how many of you on this thread would so harshly judge another parent based on one thing. Pathetic.


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