# Kids in public



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

Just curious: do you think it's sometimes appropriate for the public at large to "discipline" or "correct" a child that is in public and that the parent has sort of abandoned(texting) or is absent? Here is an example: We were in a park, riding our bikes on a paved path, along with a lot of other people, a child was standing in the middle of the path, swinging a large plastic toy on a rope, endangering everyone including herself, and the mom or caregiver was doing nothing. Another example: you are in school picking up your (small)child and a kid who has a rep as a bully stands in front of your kid and starts screaming in your kids face (unprovoked).

According to this article you could be causing this child irreparable harm:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...ds-are-going-to-be-all-right/article29181438/


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Am I missing something? I didn't see anything in the article about the practice of disciplining other people's children, let alone about irreparable harm. Did you mean to link to something else?

I love the article you linked to. I agree with almost everything in it. It definitely deserves the signal boost.

Miranda


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*I have mixed feelings about it*

From the article:

Unfortunately, when your toddler is freaking out in public and you are patiently encouraging her or him to breathe deeply and "name the feeling," anyone unfamiliar with the practice of mindful parenting is going to look at you as if you are a pushover at best and a simpleton at worst. Ineffective and potentially damaging as we now know it to be, stern talk, shouting and immediate threats are still seen by many people as the best way to bring small unruly children into line. Dr. Lapointe isn't saying there shouldn't be consequences for kids' behaviour - just that we'd be wise to consider what these consequences should be: Are they real moral and emotional learning experiences, or are they simply gratifying our own impulse to dominate and punish kids for ruining everyone's brunch?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stern talk? So now we're not supposed to get annoyed/concerned/be a human being yet we'll get condemned in the same article for not accurately showing emotion to children who we're supposed to be training emotionally. How about I get a lobotomy. A lot of the article came off as smug to me but that's my angle. I know there's always issues with parenting, we're always learning and adapting but what happened with all the families of the past who did not have these parenting trends to tell them what to do and constant feedback about this scientific study or that and still did a good job? I will not deny we're far ahead of one early parenting theory that children had to yet to grow into humans and therefore had no rights, just like they used to think babies felt no pain...


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I think the article did an ok job of handling a complex subject. It amuses me that co sleeping or extended breastfeeding are referred to as 'extreme' attachment parenting. But hey. I'm not going to argue the point.

As to the OP's question-I couldn't find the references in the article, and even the above quote only partly addresses the issue-but I do think that when a child's behavior is having a direct negative impact on other people the parent needs to take the child somewhere else and deal with it. Sometimes that isn't possible-for ex. when there is a crying baby taking the parents attention, or the parent isn't aware for whatever reason. Sometimes there can be a disagreement on whether or not its actually a problem. ( a crazy parent actually called the police on me because my 2yo came out of the bathroom without her pants while I was not far behind her) Sometimes it is necessary for a third party to step in and take action-but I definitely agree with the notion of being aware of the urge to gratify "...our own impulse to dominate and punish kids." There are some personality types that love the chance to dominate other people and their kids. Some of those are other parents. I have noticed that certain personality types jump right in with a bossy remark to the child. 

Two things I've noticed as a parent-1.other people seem entitled to give opinions about anything regarding your children the minute you are in public.Its what I call the 'Annoying Random Stranger Phenomenon' 2.There is often tension between meeting my own children's needs and being considerate of other people. Usually this issue is resolved with good intentions all round.


In sum-it depends.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

> Unfortunately, when your toddler is freaking out in public and you are patiently encouraging her or him to breathe deeply and "name the feeling," anyone unfamiliar with the practice of mindful parenting is going to look at you as if you are a pushover at best and a simpleton at worst.


But this isn't about correcting other people's children in public. It's about dealing with _your own_ children. It's about the fact that the mindful/attachment parenting approach which avoids harsh correction in public looks like spinelessness and indulgence to those who don't understand it.



> Ineffective and potentially damaging as we now know it to be, stern talk, shouting and immediate threats are still seen by many people as the best way to bring small unruly children into line.


This quote says nothing about irreparable harm. It says these methods are not effective. _Potentially_ damaging, yes. Stern correction in public was certainly harmful in my older two kids' cases; even the slightest whiff of stern-adult-lecture in public absolutely mortified them and created lasting fearful and avoidant behaviour. Not all youngsters are this sensitive to stern correction in public, but some are, so I agree that it's potentially damaging.

To me the gist of the article wasn't that there is one perfect way to be a parent, or that no one should do it this way or that way, but that critics of positive/mindful/attachment oriented parenting should stop judging those of us who practice it, telling that we're screwing our kids up, because the evidence says we're not.

Miranda


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Oh, anyway, back to the questions in your original post. 

No, I don't think it's ever appropriate to discipline someone else's child in public, without having been given explicit permission by their parent to do so. That's not to say I wouldn't intervene as necessary to prevent harm, but I wouldn't do so in a way that strays into the realm of discipline, not as the term is commonly understood.

So if there was a child swinging something around in a way that seemed likely to cause injury to my kids, I'd go over and explain what was risky about the behaviour. I'd ask them to stop, or redirect them to change how and where they were doing it. 

If I witnessed my child being yelled at by a bully, I'd go and remove my child from the situation to comfort him, explaining to the bully that the behaviour was hurtful and that's why I was intervening. 

Miranda


----------



## wbetty (Mar 10, 2016)

Well… Once I was in a big china store and some kids were running and they were a threat for all the china. But the mother wasn’t even close. She was talking on the phone outside. In these situations I don’t touch the kids but I reprimand them. I always try to find the mother and tell her to be a better parent if the situation is extreme. But usually not my children aren’t my responsibility. One talk will not make them better. It’s always up to the parents.


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

I haven't read the article yet, but in the first example I would probably say (nicely) something along the lines of "Hi, looks like this path is too crowded a place for that; could you please take your lasso (?) over there so you won't get run over? Thanks!" In the second it would be a quick "That's not nice!" to the yeller while escorting my kid elsewhere. I'm assuming I know the kid here (classmate)...if I didn't I would probably just get my kid without speaking to him. I wouldn't consider either of those to be disciplining someone else's child, though, even if I used a 'stern' voice, nor would I get bent out of shape if someone spoke to my kid in those situations.


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

It is tricky because even saying something to someone else's kid can seem like discipline. With the kid who was screaming in my sons face I was so sick to death of his behaviour that it was hard to be calm. I got down to his level and said very sternly something like "I do not want to see you doing this again". It was as calm as I was going to be able to be. I got in a lot of trouble. It probably would have been better to just remove ourselves but my son was being harassed on a daily basis. I think I probably shocked/scared the kid which wasn't a great feeling, it was like he had never got called out on his aggressive behaviour by an adult before. So do you let a kid be a public menace when the parents are absent? Cell phones have had a bad effect on parenting, I remember going to the park with my son and seeing a lot of toddlers fending for themselves because their parents just couldn't stop talking or texting on the phone. I'm pretty sure the mom was on the phone while the kid with the toy was trying to dominate the path. People can no longer just live in the moment or be present for the people they are with.


----------



## Letitia (Aug 27, 2009)

I have said things to strangers' children, but never what I would call "discipline," more informing. And not often. Usually for safety issues, things like, "Honey, that isn't safe for the people around you." I have never threatened or spoken sternly to child who was not my own. A few times I've told a child that what they are doing is rude - when it is affecting me or my kids - but in more of a "Did you know it's a little bit rude to come over and stare at us?" kind of way. The kids I've spoken to have responded well to that kind of intervention. But I would never mention consequences or any kind of expectation for future behavior. 

I didn't like the article. Agree it sounded smug. I also strongly believe that we don't live in a bubble; our behavior affects those around us. If my kid is misbehaving in a restaurant, we go outside. We have always done that. There's not much escalation to that point because I really don't want other people to have to suffer through that experience. If they did not sign on to be part of the community raising my child, then I don't think they should have to be audience to a tantrum or meltdown. The tough situation when our kids were younger was airplanes, and there I just hoped that the other people realize it's worse for the mom and the kid than anyone else, and that they're also on the plane for a reason other than that they wanted to inflict a screaming toddler on strangers.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

mumto1 said:


> It is tricky because even saying something to someone else's kid can seem like discipline. With the kid who was screaming in my sons face I was so sick to death of his behaviour that it was hard to be calm. I got down to his level and said very sternly something like "I do not want to see you doing this again". It was as calm as I was going to be able to be. I got in a lot of trouble. It probably would have been better to just remove ourselves but my son was being harassed on a daily basis. I think I probably shocked/scared the kid which wasn't a great feeling, it was like he had never got called out on his aggressive behaviour by an adult before. So do you let a kid be a public menace when the parents are absent? Cell phones have had a bad effect on parenting, I remember going to the park with my son and seeing a lot of toddlers fending for themselves because their parents just couldn't stop talking or texting on the phone. I'm pretty sure the mom was on the phone while the kid with the toy was trying to dominate the path. People can no longer just live in the moment or be present for the people they are with.


Thats why I think 'it depends', and it also depends on all round good intentions. I like to assume other people have good intentions, as do I. Sometimes, you cant just walk away or ignore a child that is out of line, sometimes there is no way to know who their caregiver is, sometimes its a matter of timing.
Here's an example where another caregiver and I disagreed whether or not my child's behavior called for discipline, hers or mine. My child was on top of the slide, but moved over so that anyone could pass her. She wasn't blocking the slide. I was reading the paper no far away, and didn't do anything. Nanny calls out sternly- who is this child with?! I looked up, and didn't really want to move because I knew already we would disagree, but out of common courtesy, I got up and asked her what was the problem.
"This is against the rules! (her rules I guess) You child is blocking the slide, and she has to go down or get off!"
I said-something like, -it looks to me like there is room to go down the slide, so just go down (she was going down with a much younger child)
But she disagreed and was close to talking to my child, so I said,"We disagree. Dont boss my child around."

(actually, this thread came to mind)

That's why good intentions are paramount.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I think it is fine to speak to a child about his/her behavior in public, but it's important to do it gently and politely, and you certainly should not touch the child unless it's the only way to prevent immediate harm. Sometimes merely being aware of a stranger's opinion on the behavior makes a much bigger difference to a child than repeated strong efforts from the parent. This was definitely the case with my son.

I have often said things like, "Please be careful running past the baby," to children on playgrounds. There have been only a few times I've spoken to total-stranger kids about their behavior in any other context. Most of these have been when the child is carelessly damaging merchandise or public property or using it in a hazardous way (examples: taking paper bus schedules out of the rack and throwing them on the floor of the bus aisle; playing with new Priority Mail boxes on a muddy floor) and the parent is either paying no attention or being lengthily ineffective (example: saying, "Honey, don't you want to sit by Mommy?" in a gentle voice so quiet he may not be able to hear it from where he is and wouldn't think it was important if he could) or visibly overwhelmed by other children and/or demands of the situation (example: trying to arrange postage of 7 large packages with screaming toddler in her backpack yanking her hair). I try to use my Mister Rogers voice to state the problem and solution as if I'm confident that the child wants to be a helpful member of the community, and if appropriate I'll help pick up the mess. The worst response I've gotten is a parent snapping, "I'll handle this!" at which point I immediately stepped back.


----------



## BethT (Mar 18, 2016)

mumto1 said:


> Just curious: do you think it's sometimes appropriate for the public at large to "discipline" or "correct" a child that is in public and that the parent has sort of abandoned(texting) or is absent? Here is an example: We were in a park, riding our bikes on a paved path, along with a lot of other people, a child was standing in the middle of the path, swinging a large plastic toy on a rope, endangering everyone including herself, and the mom or caregiver was doing nothing. Another example: you are in school picking up your (small)child and a kid who has a rep as a bully stands in front of your kid and starts screaming in your kids face (unprovoked).


I don't think there is anything wrong with getting off your bike and asking that child to move while you ride by. No need to stay and try to teach the kid. As for the bully at school, I'd talk to the principal.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

The parenting-in-public issue is sooooooo gray, but here are some thoughts. First, both of the examples in the OP involve direct, immediate, palpable danger. It's therefore completely justifiable for a bystander to intervene.

I _do not _judge the parent who misses something while checking a text because although I don't carry a Smartphone, I'm just as human and prone to other distractions. I actually appreciate it when I'm focused on another child or another task and somebody stops my child from something precarious or aggressive, (e.g. hitting another kid, as my 3-yr-old is prone to doing lately :irked).

Here's the rub, though. I must live in an area with an epidemic of helicopter parenting. I can't go out in public without store clerks following me barely two paces behind and repeatedly say "careful" to my children, even after I say it. The ushers at my church will shush children _in the lobby _even after their parents have pleaded the same. A librarian got on my case about my "unsupervised" daughter, who was sitting visibly a few yards away quietly reading.

So there are boundaries, and they definitely get crossed. I'm all for the whole it-takes-a-village concept. But we forget that true villagers don't just step in or butt in and nag; they're there to _support _each other.

I'll close on a bright note. I took my three small children to a park. Normally, other parents only approach me for petty complaints, ("Could you ask your child to stop putting bark on the slide?") So it surprised me when a mom approached me while I was changing my baby's diaper and said, "I just wanted to say that I've been watching you juggle those three young children. I know exactly how hard it is to take everyone to a park and remember those days like they were yesterday. I just think you're a rock star!" I thanked her and tried not to tear up too much. :love


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Turquesa said:


> The parenting-in-public issue is sooooooo gray, but here are some thoughts. First, both of the examples in the OP involve direct, immediate, palpable danger. It's therefore completely justifiable for a bystander to intervene.
> 
> I _do not _judge the parent who misses something while checking a text because although I don't carry a Smartphone, I'm just as human and prone to other distractions. I actually appreciate it when I'm focused on another child or another task and somebody stops my child from something precarious or aggressive, (e.g. hitting another kid, as my 3-yr-old is prone to doing lately :irked).
> 
> ...


You must live in a place of high population density as I do. Yes, these stranger comments are the bane of my existence. I also get compliments like you did. I appreciate good intentions. When you have a child who frequently tests boundaries out in public, watch out for the onslaught of opinions.

Thankfully my kids are a little older now and dont attract all the 'random stranger ' attention. My 4yo is a little better behaved in public that her 8yo brother was at that age 
(I still have post traumatic stress disorder just thinking about it)


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

contactmaya said:


> You must live in a place of high population density as I do.


Oh my goodness, yes! I think you're on to something. If you live in a small town full of dust, mud, chiggers, and cockle burrs, you're probably not going to put up a big fuss about bark on the plastic playground slide. :lol


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Turquesa said:


> If you live in a small town full of dust, mud, chiggers, and cockle burrs, you're probably not going to put up a big fuss about bark on the plastic playground slide. :lol


Too funny!

I live in one of those towns, and we still have one of those Centripetal-Child-Flinger-Concussion-Thwackers in our playground. You know, the metal merry-go-rounds that big kids push really fast while one little tyke is clutching the middle post with wide eyes, and a four-year-old with no appreciation for relative speed is getting ready to try to jump aboard? You're right, even the most controlling adults here have more to worry about than bark on the slide.

Miranda


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*funny*

We had one of those metal death spinners err I mean merry go rounds too. My son LOVVED it and would get drunk on spinning round and round. It was a bit of a nightmare with babies and toddlers mixing with older speed freak preteens but it was good too, because you had to learn to be mindful of others. I think parents live in such sanitized environments in so many cities and towns now, and kids are so tightly monitored that kids also have a fear as well of free play, bugs, thorny shrubs, splinters, mud.... Sadly the merry go round was ripped out, we've got be safe safe safe, so kids don't even get the smallest risks anymore.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

mumto1 said:


> We had one of those metal death spinners err I mean merry go rounds too. My son LOVVED it and would get drunk on spinning round and round. It was a bit of a nightmare with babies and toddlers mixing with older speed freak preteens but it was good too, because you had to learn to be mindful of others. I think parents live in such sanitized environments in so many cities and towns now, and kids are so tightly monitored that kids also have a fear as well of free play, bugs, thorny shrubs, splinters, mud.... Sadly the merry go round was ripped out, we've got be safe safe safe, so kids don't even get the smallest risks anymore.


Of the three playgrounds I know of that have these, they have all been ripped out, with yellow tape strung round the remaining hole....kids so disappointed....


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Huh. I live in a semi-major city, and one of our biggest, most popular parks still has a merry-go-round. I also don't hear a lot of "Don't put bark on the slide"-type things, except when the bark is getting in the pants of kids sliding down or the child placing the bark is in danger of getting feet in her face as kids slide or it's otherwise causing a problem. However, in the small town where I grew up, if there are other people at the playground (which is rare) they tend to be quite fussy about proper behavior. City/town comparisons depend on which city and which town, I guess. 

(I did once get yelled at by another mom in a busy urban playground because I allowed my child to drink from the public drinking fountain, thus "setting a bad example" for her kids whom she felt should be drinking only bottled water!!! I was too startled to say anything but, "It's fine...." though it occurred to me later that her grandparents probably fought for the right to drink from the same fountains as my grandparents, yet here she was thinking they weren't good enough for her kids!)


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

mumto1 said:


> We had one of those metal death spinners err I mean merry go rounds too. My son LOVVED it and would get drunk on spinning round and round. It was a bit of a nightmare with babies and toddlers mixing with older speed freak preteens but it was good too, because you had to learn to be mindful of others. I think parents live in such sanitized environments in so many cities and towns now, and kids are so tightly monitored that kids also have a fear as well of free play, bugs, thorny shrubs, splinters, mud.... Sadly the merry go round was ripped out, we've got be safe safe safe, so kids don't even get the smallest risks anymore.


A rural park that we used to frequent finally ripped out it's giant, wooden, 1950s-style merry-go-round because of, you guessed it, safety concerns. That thing was soooooo flippin' much fun that I made sure to take a ride with my kids. :love We'd actually sit on a bench with our legs dangling underneath us! If we're honest, while growing up, the big thrill of playground equipment was knowing that you *might* (and sometimes did) get hurt.

Bringing it back to the parenting-in-public issue, part of me wants to simply tell the OP that parenting other kids in public is acceptable only when serious danger is involved, but as a culture, we've lowered the bar on the definition of "serious danger" to the point that almost any kind of meddling has become acceptable.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Turquesa said:


> part of me wants to simply tell the OP that parenting other kids in public is acceptable only when serious danger is involved


I agree ... and furthermore I would say that it needs to be danger that cannot be mitigated simply by moving/warning/redirecting _your own_ child. ("Hey sweetie, we should go play over there, because the boys throwing rocks are making this area dangerous.") Disciplining the other child should be a last resort.

But yes, I think as a society we in North America have set the bar on acceptable risk sooo low. There are probably parents who believe that bark on the slide creates danger and that perception would make them feel justified in disciplining another child.

Miranda


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Agreed with the point about setting the danger bar too low
As to removing your child rather than addressing the behavior of another...I dont know. In principle it sounds good, but what of a situation in the sand box where another kid is throwing sand and caregiver isnt responding in a timely fashion? Suppose your own child was having fun and now has to leave because of sand throwing? I would be inclined to remind the child of the dangers of sand throwing rather than remove my protesting child....call it lazy parenting. Sometimes being 'right' is too hard. And sometimes that means it isnt right. 

I think its ok to communicate with another child in a respectful fashion, share information, ask them where their caregiver is ( I have done that), rather than move boulders (my kids are heavy)...

I guess I'm changing the subject a little-maybe disciplining another child is never ok, but is it ok to actually speak to them? I think it is.

(another controversial question-under which conditions is it ok for an adult to speak to another child whose caregiver is nowhere to be seen? I tell my older boys who are alone going to and from school, to never respond to adults who talk to them. There usually isnt a good reason for an adult to address unattended children. In my experience they are usually meddlers, or have outright bad intentions. Ive had one idiot warn my child who was sitting away from me in the subway train that he was going to be kidnapped, and scared the bejeebees out of him..)


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> I would be inclined to remind the child of the dangers of sand throwing rather than remove my protesting child....
> 
> I think its ok to communicate with another child in a respectful fashion, share information, ask them where their caregiver is ( I have done that), rather than move boulders (my kids are heavy)...
> 
> I guess I'm changing the subject a little-maybe disciplining another child is never ok, but is it ok to actually speak to them? I think it is.


Oh, I totally agree! I wrote something similar above:



moominmamma said:


> That's not to say I wouldn't intervene as necessary to prevent harm, but I wouldn't do so in a way that strays into the realm of discipline, not as the term is commonly understood.


What I meant was that _if a respectful request was ineffective_, I would remove my child rather than disciplining the other child.

Miranda


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Contactmaya wrote:


> under which conditions is it ok for an adult to speak to another child whose caregiver is nowhere to be seen? I tell my older boys who are alone going to and from school, to never respond to adults who talk to them. There usually isnt a good reason for an adult to address unattended children. In my experience they are usually meddlers, or have outright bad intentions.


That hasn't been my experience, either as a child or in what I've heard of my son's experiences when he goes places alone. I think it's fine for adults to speak to unaccompanied children in the same general way they'd speak to adult strangers. I think a child old enough to go out alone is old enough to respond politely to anyone who wants to speak to him; if the person is meddling, just say, "I'm fine, thanks," and move on. I think that a child who persistently doesn't respond in any way when someone speaks to him is more likely to arouse concern than a child who acts like a normal human citizen.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Yeah, I'm not out to meddle, and I certainly don't have "bad intentions". But I've been known to tell a kid that I like his backpack or that my kid enjoys the same music/anime she's wearing on her shirt. I wouldn't be angry or suspicious if the kid did not respond to me, but I admit I'd be a little surprised. I'm a person, kids are people, and sometimes people interact.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> under which conditions is it ok for an adult to speak to another child whose caregiver is nowhere to be seen? I tell my older boys who are alone going to and from school, to never respond to adults who talk to them. There usually isnt a good reason for an adult to address unattended children.


You and I clearly live in very different worlds. Where I live it would be considered rude to not greet someone with a "hi" and maybe exchange a little small-talk, and that goes for children at least as much as adults. I went for a run along a popular trail today and because it was a school holiday there were lots of kids out walking or riding bikes the trail ... alone, ahead of or behind their parents, or in groups with other kids. I think pretty much all of them said hi to me, and one kid raced me up a hill (and beat me: he was biking and I was on foot, at least that's my excuse) and waited at the top to chat about the weather. I always say hi to kids I come across waiting places, sometimes I'll stop and chat a bit. Around here this is normal and expected, and I think most people would argue that it's part of what makes our area safe. Kids are not afraid of friendly well-meaning adults, and friendly well-meaning adults are likely to interact with kids and therefore to be part of the "village" that enfolds kids, keeps an eye on them...

I am a big fan of "The Gift of Fear" and its approach to the whole business of stranger danger.

Miranda


----------



## kindofcrunchy82 (Jan 11, 2012)

Idk we are having problems with older boys like 12+ bullying our little girls at parks and mind you we are there. I am not sure why these boys, 2 separate incidents 2 different parks would find it acceptable to be mean to girls much smaller than them alonf with other things they were doing like throwing rocks and hitting dh in the back from their pebble shower. I was there but didnt realize the height of the issue until dh told me later at home. He did not talk to them but i perhaps would have had i been hit in the back. We actually had a long discussion about how rude tweens seem to be to adults they dont know and that those two particular boys in the past week are obviously trying to find victims. This is why we dont allow our kids to the park alone. We live in a decent neighborhood but there just seems to be an epidemic of kids that just dont care what they are doing and who gets hurt.


----------



## Ratchet (Mar 24, 2011)

For a bully or the 12 yo kids, talking to the parents might work but I suspect that whatever in life led them to act that way, is not going to be undone by any comment I could make. It sucks that my kid won't get to play in the area but that's life and I often comment "those kids are having a hard time right now so we need to give them space" which I think helps her emotional to understand the people around her in a nonjudgmental way.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> You and I clearly live in very different worlds. Where I live it would be considered rude to not greet someone with a "hi" and maybe exchange a little small-talk, and that goes for children at least as much as adults. I went for a run along a popular trail today and because it was a school holiday there were lots of kids out walking or riding bikes the trail ... alone, ahead of or behind their parents, or in groups with other kids. I think pretty much all of them said hi to me, and one kid raced me up a hill (and beat me: he was biking and I was on foot, at least that's my excuse) and waited at the top to chat about the weather. I always say hi to kids I come across waiting places, sometimes I'll stop and chat a bit. Around here this is normal and expected, and I think most people would argue that it's part of what makes our area safe. Kids are not afraid of friendly well-meaning adults, and friendly well-meaning adults are likely to interact with kids and therefore to be part of the "village" that enfolds kids, keeps an eye on them...
> 
> I am a big fan of "The Gift of Fear" and its approach to the whole business of stranger danger.
> 
> Miranda


Point taken. Those kids on the hiking trail sound a little older than mine. Mine are old enough to walk to school alone, but wouldnt be old enough biking alone on a trail.

I think its the living in a densely populated city that makes me paranoid about people speaking to younger kids with no good intentions. Ive seen this a couple of times when an adult thought my child was alone. They were threatening in tone, (for eg threatening to call the police), or demanding where this childs mother was etc. Some people have a culture to instill fear in kids if for some reason they disapprove. Maybe you dont live around those people but i do. There are also car jackings where we live. I am very clear about not going near cars or accepting gifts from strangers.

So i just tell my kids not to talk to adults. That doesnt mean they are out of touch with their intuition or have a negative view of adults in general. Perhaps when they get a bit older, they can engage in chit chat with adults about backpacks or whatnot, but for now, I say, who cares what such and such thinks of your backpack?


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

To answer my own question then-under which conditions is it ok for adults to talk to apparently unaccompanied minors...?when those minors are over 12... middle school age. I see alot of middle school kids getting about without adults...


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Ratchet said:


> For a bully or the 12 yo kids, talking to the parents might work but I suspect that whatever in life led them to act that way, is not going to be undone by any comment I could make. It sucks that my kid won't get to play in the area but that's life and I often comment "those kids are having a hard time right now so we need to give them space" which I think helps her emotional to understand the people around her in a nonjudgmental way.


Actually, maybe those 12yos aren't accompanied by adults, otherwise how could they be 'following' the little girls? This is another situation where it would be appropriate to talk to an unaccompanied minor. Its one thing for a 3yo to be throwing sand, but for 12yos actively bullying little kids....that calls for intervention by someone.

Actually, I did have a situation like this. A bunch of older kids/tweens and teens were using a jungle gym in a playground to play basketball. All well and good, except the ball came close to hitting many a little kid trying to play. Eventually I got fed up and told them to leave as they were putting the little kids in danger. No other adult dared speak up. I told them that playground was not designed for basketball, and they were breaking the law. ( Im not sure if that was true or not) They got smart with me, so I threatened to call the police (actually my phone was flat, so i bluffed) Some other adult big guy came over to my aid, and they had more respect for him. They left. Other adults came over and congratulated me on standing up to these kids.

Also, there is the gang factor where I live, and some tween/teen groups act as though they own the place and dont care for anyone around them, no matter how young or how old. 
(I feel compelled to mention a situation recently where a group of teens/tweens, who i later found out to be a gang, were chasing each other with scooters. I had to pass by with my kids/one toddler and told them to put the scooter down as it was dangerous. They just laughed at me. Later I read in the paper, that there had been tit for tat scooter attacks among some high schoolers in the area-most likely gang activity. No deaths, but definitely severe injuries.Yeah, I live in one of those kind of areas)

This is actually another aspect of the issue-kids up to the age of 18 are welcome in playgrounds, but when they come in big groups, that can be a problem.


----------



## islandfarmgirl (Apr 28, 2009)

This is timely for me. I recently took my 8yo to a science museum and we were playing in an interactive exhibit with lots of foam balls and vacuum tubes. A slightly older boy was picking up and pitching the balls (really swinging hard) at a playmate and playing a very fast game of chase, despite toddlers everywhere and clear signage in the exhibit saying not to throw the balls. I spoke with him, admittedly in an annoyed tone, and said "There are clear signs in this exhibit that you are not supposed to throw the balls. You almost hit us with your arm." He looked at me, smiled, ran around the corner and continued his game. Wow. I felt SO pissed! So we left the exhibit, even though we weren't done playing. It felt like the bully won.

It makes me sad that kids are taught to be afraid of all strangers - perhaps it also sets a tone where they don't feel accountable to adults in this kind of situation. I agree with previous posters that it is important for kids to be able to differentiate between good and bad vibes from adults and trust their gut. I have read Gavin DeBecker's book and think it's important for kids to develop some trust in their own judgement.

As for manners – maybe my standards for kid manners are unrealistic but it's depressing to see kids undersupervised and lacking the ability or desire to be good citizens. I hate to think of my kid having to deal with a kid like that someday as her employee, customer or boss...  Hopefully she'll have the groundedness and self-possession to deal with it more eloquently than I did.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

islandfarmgirl said:


> It makes me sad that kids are taught to be afraid of all strangers - perhaps it also sets a tone where they don't feel accountable to adults in this kind of situation.


I had not thought of connecting these two things but I think you're probably right. If we send our kids the message that random adults have no business speaking to them, we can hardly be surprised if well-meaning adults who express concerns about risky/hurtful behaviour are ignored.

Miranda


----------



## Ratchet (Mar 24, 2011)

If you are concerned about gangs, or teens without role models, or whatever, then volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters or something. I would be curious to hear if any one statement at a plsyground ever undid the decade of poor parenting that came before it. I think children/teens ignoring adults is not entirely a stranger danger thing- I wonder how those kids react to their teacher, for example. We (AP-we) don't threaten our own kids falsely (like, I'm going to call the police) because we know it doesn't work and is disrespectful to kids to lie to them. We feel pushed into that position out of frustration with these bullies. But it still doesn't work.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

islandfarmgirl said:


> As for manners - maybe my standards for kid manners are unrealistic but it's depressing to see kids undersupervised and lacking the ability or desire to be good citizens.


I recently had to deal with an unsupervised child bullying DD. I personally witnessed the whole thing from an open window. DD fell over on her bike, accidentally colliding with another girl. The other girl was unharmed, save for some mud that got on her. DD got up, and the girl hit her and shouted, "Get away from me, you bitch!" That was sort of a last-straw incident from this girl, but I didn't know who her parents were. So I reported it to the manager of the apartment complex, saying that it was imperative that my children feel safe in the space where they live. Apparently, it worked because the girl's mother tracked me down and denied _everything_. "My daughter didn't lay a hand on your daughter!"

Long story short, I learned first that there's always a way to report bullying, (museum staff, in your case), and that often there are parents enabling the behavior.

Even after this incident, I respectfully disagree about children needing constant supervision. But that's my bias as a Free Range kids fan.   I'm glad that I finally got to witness some of the bullying that DD had been reporting because it made my case more credible. But it feels wrong to curtail her freedom completely Just in Case there's bullying.

As a side rant, our culture, (i.e. not you personally), tends to forget that bullies have existed in all times and places. There were no "Good Old Days" when no kid bullied another. I don't even think that there were any Good Old Days of better parenting, honestly. Parenting just isn't that black and white. :shrug


----------



## islandfarmgirl (Apr 28, 2009)

Turquesa said:


> I recently had to deal with an unsupervised child bullying DD. I personally witnessed the whole thing from an open window. DD fell over on her bike, accidentally colliding with another girl. The other girl was unharmed, save for some mud that got on her. DD got up, and the girl hit her and shouted, "Get away from me, you bitch!" That was sort of a last-straw incident from this girl, but I didn't know who her parents were. So I reported it to the manager of the apartment complex, saying that it was imperative that my children feel safe in the space where they live. Apparently, it worked because the girl's mother tracked me down and denied _everything_. "My daughter didn't lay a hand on your daughter!"
> 
> Long story short, I learned first that there's always a way to report bullying, (museum staff, in your case), and that often there are parents enabling the behavior.
> 
> ...


Really good points. I am trying to embrace more of a free range approach and shelve the media fear. I greatly admire parents who put this kind of faith in their kids and I know I tend toward the opposite with a clingy LO and having myself been parented somewhat anxiously. I agree that kids need to be allowed to operate unsupervised and I'm a bit horrified at how little free range time I see my child and her peers getting compared to my own childhood in the 70s. Get on your bike, be back in time for dinner. Now we are in the era of the two hour playdate and the heavy afterschool schedule, and even playdates seem onerous to plan.

Nostalgia does soften things, but I seriously don't remember kids being vicious so frequently when I was growing up. I remember awkwardness and embarrassment, but much of that was self inflicted. :nerd: My friends and I embraced our dorkiness. And if adults yelled at us for doing something we shouldn't have been doing, we heeded them and ran for home. I don't remember the desire to "get away with" misbehavior, I remember feeling a sense of pride in sticking up for "doing the right thing" or using grownup manners. I have been fortunate in most of my life to be sheltered from the worst of humanity, so I know my point of view is blinkered. I do fear that our litigious society has continued a shift away from taking personal responsibility.

Thanks for provoking thought!​


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Ratchet said:


> If you are concerned about gangs, or teens without role models, or whatever, then volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters or something. I would be curious to hear if any one statement at a plsyground ever undid the decade of poor parenting that came before it. I think children/teens ignoring adults is not entirely a stranger danger thing- I wonder how those kids react to their teacher, for example. We (AP-we) don't threaten our own kids falsely (like, I'm going to call the police) because we know it doesn't work and is disrespectful to kids to lie to them. We feel pushed into that position out of frustration with these bullies. But it still doesn't work.


Im not the type of person to immediately threaten to call the police. That only came after I had tried the usual way of talking to people-respectfully, and expecting the same in return. But thats not the response I got when I pointed out what they were doing was dangerous. Instead, they were physically threatening towards me, and were disrespectful, hurled a few insults at me, etc. 'b' word was used and the fact that i am a woman seemed to be a bad thing for them as well)
I 'falsely' threatened, because I saw my phone was flat. I wasn't planning to lie. I meant it.
What would you do if physically threatened by a group of people, insulting you for simply requesting that they respect the safety of younger children? Are you the advocate for your children? Or do you leave, and let the bigger bullies take over because they were threatening and used a few swear words at you?

Little kids have the right to be in a playground, and their parents have the right to be there and expect conditions to be safe for them.

As for big brother/big sister, or any good cause-all well and good for those that have the time and resources to volunteer. Im not specifically concerned about gangs, just that there was one hanging round our building using scooters in dangerous ways as I passed with my younger children, putting them in danger. Fortunately, they are no longer there. Police have a role here as much as big brother/sister organizations. But I agree, gangs are not specifically central to this discussion, however, where I live, sometimes the issue comes up and relates to the topic.

I think when someone is breaking the law, threatening you with violence, or creating dangerous conditions its fair enough to warn them that the police will be involved after you have tried to communicate respectfully. What other option is there? I dont think being AP means you dont think police have a role in society, nor does it mean you dont defend yourself when attacked, or stand up for yourself in a dangerous situation.

Back to the issue of talking to strangers. I feel safer knowing my younger children dont talk to any adults they dont know while walking to school. It doesnt mean they fear strangers, they are just being sensible.If I am nearby, they are welcome to talk to anyone at all, and I do not encourage a fear based mentality. I also encourage listening to your intuition. 
I think that there is an age difference in the imagination of the posters here-those that think its ok to talk to strangers have older kids in mind.

This gets back to my question, which i dont think anyone really answered-what is the age when kids can deal with adults on their own? I suggested 12ish/middle school age.

But I dont feel comfortable with my kids at 8 and 10 talking to strangers if i am not there.

Btw, its pretty rare around here for 8yos to walk to school on their own. I encourage independence in my kids.

Ive never seen an adult addressing my children who appeared to be alone, who had anything good to say. They were usually trying to frighten them, or control them, or ask questions that werent their business. This is also probably an age issue and connected to where we live-in a densely populated area.

I hear in Japan it is different. Children are encouraged to walk to school unattended from a young age.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

If I was truly threatened, I would call the police (not just bluff about it), and I would take my child and leave. Yes, kids have the right to be at a playground. But I certainly am not going to put my child and myself in danger just to make that point. Besides, how much fun will the kids have if they are scared?


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

chickabiddy said:


> If I was truly threatened, I would call the police (not just bluff about it), and I would take my child and leave. Yes, kids have the right to be at a playground. But I certainly am not going to put my child and myself in danger just to make that point. Besides, how much fun will the kids have if they are scared?


My phone was flat, which I noticed only after mentioning the police. Another important point I didnt mention, was that this playground was crowded. There were many other parents and little kids here, so effectively, I was speaking up for everyone. I figured someone else would step in and support me and eventually they did.

(Not related to kids so much, but just yesterday in a crowded train in rush hour, a woman with mental issues started randomly insulting passengers, when she saw my stroller, she demanded I take the stroller out of the train. The train was slightly delayed and not at my stop-she stood in the doorway grabbing my stroller. Then the trains doors closed ready to go, but she kept the door open effectively delaying the whole train. I tried to ignore her, as she pulled at my stroller. The finally a guy got off the train and called out to her, saying 'Get off the train now!". She did. He got back in the train, and off we went. The whole carriage started cheering. It was truly bizarre.)


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

islandfarmgirl said:


> Really good points. I am trying to embrace more of a free range approach and shelve the media fear. I greatly admire parents who put this kind of faith in their kids and I know I tend toward the opposite with a clingy LO and having myself been parented somewhat anxiously. I agree that kids need to be allowed to operate unsupervised and I'm a bit horrified at how little free range time I see my child and her peers getting compared to my own childhood in the 70s. Get on your bike, be back in time for dinner. Now we are in the era of the two hour playdate and the heavy afterschool schedule, and even playdates seem onerous to plan.
> 
> Nostalgia does soften things, but I seriously don't remember kids being vicious so frequently when I was growing up. I remember awkwardness and embarrassment, but much of that was self inflicted. :nerd: My friends and I embraced our dorkiness. And if adults yelled at us for doing something we shouldn't have been doing, we heeded them and ran for home. I don't remember the desire to "get away with" misbehavior, I remember feeling a sense of pride in sticking up for "doing the right thing" or using grownup manners. I have been fortunate in most of my life to be sheltered from the worst of humanity, so I know my point of view is blinkered. I do fear that our litigious society has continued a shift away from taking personal responsibility.
> 
> Thanks for provoking thought!​


Yes I agree. Being sensible about who you interact with, doesn't automatically imply disrespect for adults. I am actually a pretty free range parent relative to others where I live, and the 'not talking to adults' is one way I feel safe to let the kids go off independently. However, I treat my kids with respect as much as I can, and teach them the importance of doing the same for others (you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you thing).

Anyway, this post may be the thread killer we've all been waiting for, but I emphatically disagree that taking precautions as you let your younger children free to go on their own means they will grow up playground bullies or disrespectful to adults. Btw, I think its ok to talk to adults who are parents with their children.

I should mention that in many places, letting an 8yo walk to school alone could have the CPS involved quick smart. Thats another good reason not to talk to adults-around here, they could be social workers. I have as many tales about social workers as I do about gangs. Too many.

So, what do you think? At what age should unattended children be able to talk to adults? At what age can they be unattended?

http://www.mothering.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

islandfarmgirl said:


> This is timely for me. I recently took my 8yo to a science museum and we were playing in an interactive exhibit with lots of foam balls and vacuum tubes. A slightly older boy was picking up and pitching the balls (really swinging hard) at a playmate and playing a very fast game of chase, despite toddlers everywhere and clear signage in the exhibit saying not to throw the balls. I spoke with him, admittedly in an annoyed tone, and said "There are clear signs in this exhibit that you are not supposed to throw the balls. You almost hit us with your arm." He looked at me, smiled, ran around the corner and continued his game. Wow. I felt SO pissed! So we left the exhibit, even though we weren't done playing. It felt like the bully won.
> 
> It makes me sad that kids are taught to be afraid of all strangers - perhaps it also sets a tone where they don't feel accountable to adults in this kind of situation. I agree with previous posters that it is important for kids to be able to differentiate between good and bad vibes from adults and trust their gut. I have read Gavin DeBecker's book and think it's important for kids to develop some trust in their own judgement.
> 
> *As for manners - maybe my standards for kid manners are unrealistic but it's depressing to see kids undersupervised and lacking the ability or desire to be good citizens.* I hate to think of my kid having to deal with a kid like that someday as her employee, customer or boss...  Hopefully she'll have the groundedness and self-possession to deal with it more eloquently than I did.


Free range parenting does require a certain amount of undersupervision. In a museum, my older children often go off on their own. I would be mortified if I found out they were being rude to others. but my guess is they aren't. They are enjoying their freedom.

Perhaps your 8yo never has to deal with the issue of talking to strangers, since it sounds like she is always supervised.

http://www.mothering.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> So, what do you think? At what age should unattended children be able to talk to adults? At what age can they be unattended?


This is a question I can't answer without context. In the context of my town, any child who is unattended would be comfortable talking to adults. And children are unattended quite young here. Kids walk to school without parents from age 6 or 7. Our house is at the nexus between a middle school, a parochial school and an elementary school and I'd say that 90% of the kids walk without parents. I shovelled snow all winter on the sidewalk beside my house, the last block leading to the elementary school, and most of the kids said "thanks!" to me when I stopped and stepped aside to let them walk through my shovelling-in-progress. I'd reply with "you're welcome" or a comment like "Sorry it's not done yet. I'll see if I can get it clear by this afternoon." It's just normal here for kids and adults to exchange pleasantries the way adults do. (They still do that, don't they? That's not another quirk of life in rural Canada?)



contactmaya said:


> I should mention that in many places, letting an 8yo walk to school alone could have the CPS involved quick smart.


Yeah, see, that's so different from here, and that's why I don't think I can answer your question for you. I can only answer it for me and my world. In my world responsible parents leave their kids in cars when they run into the store to pick up milk. There are no nefarious social workers sneaking around trying to apprehend kids. Parents know their kids are statistically safer in a parked car in our grocery store lot than they are travelling to and from the store. No one here believes there are carjackers and predators hiding behind dumpsters.

Miranda


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> This is a question I can't answer without context. In the context of my town, any child who is unattended would be comfortable talking to adults. And children are unattended quite young here. Kids walk to school without parents from age 6 or 7. Our house is at the nexus between a middle school, a parochial school and an elementary school and I'd say that 90% of the kids walk without parents. I shovelled snow all winter on the sidewalk beside my house, the last block leading to the elementary school, a*nd most of the kids said "thanks!" to me when I stopped and stepped aside to let them walk through my s*hovelling-in-progress. I'd reply with "you're welcome" or a comment like "Sorry it's not done yet. I'll see if I can get it clear by this afternoon." It's just normal here for kids and adults to exchange pleasantries the way adults do. (They still do that, don't they? That's not another quirk of life in rural Canada?)
> 
> 
> Re bolded, I think its ok to say please and thankyou when the context calls for it. Its more the random conversation making by an adult to unaccompanied child that may be a red flag in my mind. I hope my kids say thankyou when called for...Ill ask them.
> ...


hghg


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm also in the U.S. and disagree that "nefarious social workers" are that much of a problem. What a social worker might think is not much of a consideration in my daily life.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

chickabiddy said:


> I'm also in the U.S. and disagree that "nefarious social workers" are that much of a problem. What a social worker might think is not much of a consideration in my daily life.


Then you are lucky. Being a good parent doesnt guarantee absence of problems with social workers. In my case, letting my children walk to school at ages 8 and 10 is considered murky by legal standards, social workers on the prowl are a factor I take into consideration probably more so than other potential negatives. Look up the Meitiv case which has been all over the media in the past few months.

Also, do a search on the subject of CPS on these boards, and you will find alot of discussion on this subject, but its not relevant to the theme of this thread so I dont want to say too much more about it.

It might also depend on the state you are in as much as the country.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Yes, we apparently lead different lives. I live in North Carolina. "Social workers on the prowl" are definitely not a thing here.

I have read the discussions about CPS on these boards and agree that it is best not to continue that conversation here.


----------

