# anyone else struggle with religion after you lost your baby?



## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

i wanted to post this yesterday, but at the time i was worried that some may view it as offensive, but i decided to anyways. I am interested to see how others view religion before and after their loss.
For ME and i want people to know that everyone obviously is entitled to their own opinions. And I would never judge. Everyone has walked a different road and has had different upbringings.
Mine goes like this-before we lost our daughter, I thought that everything happened for a reason. When we lost her, people told me that God needed another angel, it just wasn't the right time, trust Gods plan for my life, everything happens for a reason, God doesn't give you anything you can't handle, ect. I just cannot believe those. I was angry at God for a while. Thinking that NO this wasn't "meant to be". My husband and I would have been wonderful parents. We're okay financially. There is no "reason" that I can think of. Now after we lost her, I still believe in a God, I don't know if his or her name is "God". But I do think that when i was picking her ashes up from the funeral home I was very calm. I think of the footprints in the sand poem when I think of that day-that's the only way I can explain it. I do think that there is a better place. I think I will see her again. But I do not believe that everything happens for a reason. Why would God give a child as a "gift" to someone who just murders it? Why a druggie? Do you know where I am going with this? It just doesn't make sense. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think God created the world and then took his hands off. I think that he cries when bad things happen to us and is overjoyed when good things happen. Let me know what YOUR views are-I don't care if they are different. =) I also want to add that I am posting this here, because we have been through losses.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Before losing Duncan we were atheists (though I had tendencies to Eastern philosophies -- Buddhism, Taoism and Advaita Vedanta). We're still atheists. Neither of us do deities and all that jazz. I think I have more appreciation now for Buddhist, Taoist and the nondualist AV philosophy.

We can't connect with religious platitudes and euphemisms and I find many of them insulting.

I know friends and family have wondered if there has been any change. 'Cause, ya know, everyone that experiences a tragedy has to turn to some deity or whatever. No, we didn't run back to our old faith. We walked away voluntarily for reasons that didn't have anything to do with feeling lost, hurt, angry, depressed or whatever.

It's a bit awkward on the phone with my father because I know he wants to ask questions. He wants to know why we're coping so well or how come we're at peace with losing Duncan. Not everyone needs to turn to Yahweh and Yeshua for strength or guidance. I would no more turn to either of them than I would Ra, Apsu or the Norse gods.

However, when I was a dedicated Christian I would have held firmly to the belief that it was all in their hands. It was their will and something I would have submitted to. Losing him wouldn't have hurt any less, but knowing what I believed and how strong my convictions were I don't think I would have questioned their will for us. If it was meant to be it was meant to be. I don't doubt my father would bring up themes regarding their "will" if we were still Christian. We were strong believers in accepting whatever they had in store for us. We sought the scriptures for guidance and wisdom and would have relinquished our will to the Lord.

Anywho, our feelings toward much of classical theism hasn't changed. We don't wave our fist in the air or stick the big finger to Yahweh and Yeshua or any deity people believe in. We certainly don't believe we're being "punished" for "backslidding." I'm not angry at anything. We also don't believe in fanciful afterlife themes. At most, I like the idea of rebirth (or recycling since matter and energy can never be destroyed) or reincarnation. I think both are fun to entertain. But a blissful paradise? Nah. It also doesn't bring us any comfort, though I know it does for many.

I know many expect us to rediscover our faith in Ctheism. Much to their dismay that hasn't and won't happen.


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## pink gal (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm so sorry for your loss of your precious baby.

Let me preface my response by saying I am Christian and my faith is very important to me. When we lost our son during my 5th month of pregnancy I was very angry with God and it did indeed shake my faith. I had such a hard time understanding how God could have answered our prayers with a much longed for pregnancy after infertility only to allow our son to die.

I felt like that for several weeks. But about two months after he died we finally received the information from the genetic testing that was done on him and we learned that he had trisomy 13. A cause of severe birth defects that usually results in the baby dying in the first year of life. I realized that he would have suffered greatly and we would have lost him early in his life. I did, and still do, take comfort in knowing that he didn't suffer. My faith was strengthened because I believe that God spared him the suffering he would have experienced if he had lived.

I hope you find comfort in your grief.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

thank you for responding! I love that you can tell your feelings. I understand. It's like, why point the finger? How can anyone be so cruel? I'm sorry about duncan! No woman should have to lose a child. No father should have to lose one and the list can go on and on. Theres a woman that I think still frequents these forums that I find VERY interesting and she is also an atheist. http://lunardreams.net/baby/ and I just love reading her blogs. I know she won't mind that I gave her website, because her website is linked on her "signature" for mothering.com. Thanks a lot for telling me your views! And I am so sorry about your baby Duncan.







But you found the right place here on this forum.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

I have not had religion in my life for a very long time. I used to consider myself atheist.. but sometimes I wonder if it was for 'shock value' hehe I think agnostic would have been a better term in those days. Now, I guess I'm a bit of a pagan - nature based religions. I feel like if I were a christian, losing Dresden would have shaken my faith in that.. I would have certainly been angry at god and it seems like a lot of people get deeper in faith.. but I feel like I'd be less, I feel like if there was ever a chance that I'd be a true beliver in a religion that worships a god, it was lost with Dresden. I'm similar to Brittany.. I don't worship any specific deity.. I don't worship anything at all... so I don't have anyone/thing to be angry at! Which is kind of good for me - I don't want to go around being angry at something I can't even see! I felt like when we found out Dresden had died (and my husband did this too) that we were willing to give GOD ONE chance.. to prove himself real.. all we needed was one little(or huge) miracle. For when Dresden came out, to be breathing - he wasn't.. no miracle for us.
I feel very strongly about reincarnation. I swear I can use my pendulum (which Dresden's ashes are in) and talk to my boy.. I know it seems strange, but I really feel his presence! It's such a beatuiful feeling. THEN of course my 3 year old told Shaun and I that "when Dresden gets a new body, and comes back to us, he can see his stocking on the christmas tree" WOW! This just makes me feel so wonderful about my beliefs. These aren't things I've ever said to Gwen.. so I can't imagine where she would have heard it from? But it sure gives me some comfort.
I hope no matter what our beliefs, we can all draw comfort from them.


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

It is so interesting that you should post this now Jess ... my faith is a huge part of my grieving process right now. Emma's middle name is Faith! All through my pregnancy we believed she was a boy and hadn't really managed to come up with any girl's names. It was only when I went into labour that dh suggested Emma - and I liked it. When she was born, I held her on my stomach and dh checked and told me she was a little girl!! That's the moment when it all went wrong - they said she isn't breathing and whisked her to the resus unit in the room. That was the moment when I told DH, completely out of the blue, that her middle name had to be Faith. We had NEVER suggested it before. And I didn't call her it because I believed that God was about to save her (although I hoped that he would) but because I just KNEW at that moment that she was gone and her name was supposed to be an affirmation that I would keep my Faith despite the horror of watching my perfectly healthy daughter die due to a labour accident.

In the early stages of my grief (Emma died in October) I did find my faith a comfort - I know the Footprints poem - and I also felt like God was carrying us and comforting us. Over Christmas though, my faith became very problematic to my grief. I didn't stop believing in God - I've been a Christian nearly 30 years so it wouldn't be easy for me to ditch something so fundamentally part of my being - but I was extremely angry at him. I couldn't reconcile my belief in a loving God & a powerful God with someone who would take my precious child from me. I'd like to tell you that I have sorted this aspect of grief out but I haven't ... However, I have made the decision to continue in my faith, to trust God and see where that leads me. That has not been an easy decision. I do not believe that my daughter's death was God's will but then I have to question why the God I believe in didn't prevent something that to me seems so senseless. Very recently I have come across another Christian mother's blog. Her daughter died in April ... I'm reading and just absorbing really, but I'm finding some solace and consolation and maybe a few answers in her thoughts and musings.

For me: continuing to believe is an effort but for me it's part of my "griefwork" (as "Empty Cradle" puts it) and I think pondering it is helping me to find a path through my grief. I know that I face the days better when I succeed in praying. I don't know where I'll end up in this journey.


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## mom2funnybunnies (Apr 28, 2008)

First of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your baby. It's a terrible thing to do through.

I was a strong Catholic as was DH until I had my second m/c. I was really, really agry for a really, really long time. Much of my feelings were based on the fact I thought I had some sort of "contract" with God, I was always the good girl and played by the rules - tried hard to be a good person, sister, daughter, wife, worked hard, went to church - the shock of something so sad happening to be made me so mad. I felt let down, angry I had to go through this. The same day of our D&C, a drunk driver from the next block over hit our parked car, she totally got away with it despite the fact it was her car and there were witnesses. It me, it just drove home how chaotic life is, and there is no contract.

As I go through my fourth m/c, I am trying to find some faith, partly for my husband who really misses going to church. I'm ready too, I think, and we're looking are places that are kind, loving and supportive w/o giving pat answers.

I don't have the same loving connection I once did with God, but these days, I'm more open to the idea than I use to be.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

I did. It shook my faith something terrible.

I thought I did everything right. I waited till I was married to get pregnant, I pray every day, I asked God nicely for my baby. And yet she's gone.

I see in the news that people are killing their babies, and know that people are having abortions every day. I see abuse and neglect and women who don't want their kids and would be better off without them. And not only is my baby gone, but I'm having such rotten luck conceiving again that every period brings me to tears.

I still believe, and am still leaving things in His hands, but I know that when I get to meet Him, I have an awful lot of questions.


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## JayJay (Aug 1, 2008)

I haven't been Christian for a long time. I was baptized, yes, but I never felt comfortable as a Christian, even as a small child. I just always felt like I was "faking it". I never found comfort in the rituals or rules, or anything whatsoever.

In my teenage years, my Dad did a lot of research on many religions and when I was about twelve or perhaps a little younger, he started getting very interested in Paganism - Wicca, Druidism and the modern Gaia religion. He bought many books about it and lit candles, started seeking out people with similar beliefs and hey, I read the books, lit the candles and informed myself about the beliefs of these so called "faithless people" and realized that in fact, Pagans hold a very wise, very old and VERY faithful belief system that is based on nature, logic, sympathy and basically "you shouldn't do the sin in the first place" - something I'd always believed.

From then onward I learnt all about Wicca, mostly. As a teenager I practiced sympathetic magic - not in a group of girls dressed in black with goth stuff on, as one might think, but as me, in touch with the earth, by myself or with a couple of friends. I learnt about herbs, life, creating and sustaining life (I had a lot of animals - many of them aquatic because I found them fascinating) - I dug a big pond and filled it with all sorts of life including sticklebacks - tiny fish I used to watch in mating season, with the males, red-bellied, guarding their infants from the bigger fish. I learned about death, and injury, pain, love, all sorts of things.

Wicca and Pagan sympathetic magic is based mostly on herbs and good thoughts. Pagans believe that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back on you three times, so curses by a Wiccan would be rather foolish for that person! Instead they will focus on healing hands, spells that are really almost like prayer but might involve a ritual, such as a binding spell (that's one I remember with a stick, around which you wrap a leather cord or a piece of cotton and then bury it to keep the spell safe). There's nothing to worry about - honestly, Pagans are pretty much all hippies at heart. I've never met a power hungry corporate Pagan in my life









Therefore losing Josie, I felt no anger at the Goddess (our Earth planet). Why? Nothing makes me special - I can commune with her, sure - everyone can, but there is life, there is death, famine, there are storms, acts of nature every single day and I'm not top of the food chain or above natural happenings. What happened with Josie wasn't anyone's "will". To me, that just doesn't make any sense. Josie just happened to die, as some babies do - babies just do that for various reasons. Doesn't mean you're not going to feel as though your heart is torn in two - sure you are: you're a mother. But blaming God? Why would I do that? To me, that's like handing my fate over to some entity instead of forging my own moral way along in the world and accepting life for what it is, and death as part of life. It is part of life.

The Earth is beautiful. I can go outside and sit down in the summertime and I am part of it. She provides us with a beautiful network of life and love and peace - our wonderful ecosystem. She is amazing and helpful and full of energy. I can feel her flowing through me. She will flow through me even more when I'm pregnant - that's a fact, because of the extra life inside me. There's no feeling like it.

She brings me peace all by herself. As Jonie Mitchell once sung, "We are stardust, we are golden - and we've got to find our way back to the garden..." - I cannot feel angry when I am sitting on the greatest life bringing force I know. I will have other children. I will always love Josie. Those two things can live in harmony, twisting around each other in the core of my soul, and that's okay. So mostly, I am peaceful. I prefer being peaceful and watching everything happen and taking joy in it, than raging against nothing.

*HUGS* to all







XXXX


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Great question.

I'm a Christian and so is DH. Eleven years ago my FIL died. My DH was devastated and didn't want to have anything to do with God. A few years later we decided to look for a church near our home and found one where we fit. About a year or two after joining the church we had our first son. We decided that a four year spacing would be great for siblings and became pregnant in November 07. The pregnancy was great except I had GD. I was able to control it with my diet and struggled to eat 2200 calories a day but I had to or else I'd start having ketones in my urine and would just feel like all of my muscles in my body had lactic acid burn. I had a hard time maintaining my weight. It sucked but I managed.

He was such a loving baby. I could poke my stomach and he'd poke his butt or foot back out at me and let me rub on it. He just wanted to be loved on a lot. I know he would have been a snuggler and a very sweet baby. I've heard other mothers comment that they've gotten a good feel on personality before a baby is born. With him and his wanting to be rubbed on I felt it was pretty obvious. DH used to get a kick out of it and loved to see me rubbing the lump that was DS's bottom.

Finally, at 40 weeks we agreed to an induction (long story). After eight hours of laboring on pitocin without much change (I went in at 3cm and was only at 4.5cm after eight hours) I agreed to let them break my water. Four hours after my midwife broke my water I had terrible, unbearable pain and decided on an epidural. Right after the epidural was in place my son's HB dropped. The midwife came in, found I was complete and he was pretty much crowning. They told me to get him out so I pushed him out in no time. What we didn't know at the time was that his cord had torn (velamentous cord insertion and vasa previa) and he had lost most of his blood in a few heartbeats.

The NICU team treated him, got him breathing and his heart beating and they transferred him to the NICU. 12 hours after his birth and after being transferred to the children's hospital his little body gave out. We were able to be there and I was able to hold him as he died. DH and I both have commented that we didn't feel any "presence" with us at the time or that anyone was there to greet his little soul. I think we were both in shock that something so normal as his birth had turned to crap in just seconds.

We had all the comments of God needing another angel, etc. But, I don't believe that God took my baby. I can't believe that was in His plan. I believe an unfortunate, avoidable situation happened and God was there for my son when he died (and there for us). Within minutes of his dying our church pastor and another pastor I work with walked into the room. They didn't know he had died - they just knew he was ill. Shortly after that another pastor friend call DH's cell phone. He and his wife had lost a grown son a couple of years ago and his voice was such a comfort for us. There are tons of other little things that happened that day and the next few days where God really carried us through.

I didn't question why for a long time. And I still don't question why he died so much but I do struggle with why didn't we get a miracle??? Why didn't He save my baby when other babies who have had the same thing happen (the VCI and vasa previa) are able to live and not suffer ill effects (some do suffer from brain damage, etc.).

From reading his medical records the EEG they ran on him for five plus hours showed abnormal brain activity so if he had lived he probably would have suffered. I question why he had to suffer the 12 hours he did. Also reading through those records the doc mentioned he was agitated on examination. He had some fight in him just not enough. This is really hard to write - I miss him and can't stand to think that he suffered. I was able to speak with the NICU doc weeks later and he said he hadn't suffered because he was in something similar to an adult coma (he said babies brains don't do comas like we think of but that they do go into a similar state). But, I don't believe the doc that he didn't suffer - I felt it was an answer he probably gives to parents a lot.

Our son had already been resuscitated four times before we could get to him and agree to take him off of life support. As I was carrying him to the room they had for us I talked to him and he opened his eyes and looked right at me. I commented on it to him "oh, you're going to look at momma" as I was talking to him and the doc turned around and looked so surprised. I know my son had to have suffered some and I hate it.

I am angry with God. But, as much as I want to be angry and just turn my back I "hear" his voice in my soul. I hear that it's okay to be angry and that He's here with me. I feel His grief, too. DH says he feels the same thing. I am comforted even through my anger. It is hard to explain but I feel like I am even more sure He exists because of this. Before I was kind of sure but now I just know it deep down.

I also know that there have been times in my grief and my tears where I literally did not feel like I could breathe another breath - that I couldn't go on and I've cried out to Him for help. And, when I think that cry to God I am overcome with a great sense of relief like He lifts it from me and I can go on again. He gives me a break and carries the grief for me if just for a moment. I feel closer to Him but also farther away from others who haven't experienced this type of loss (I'm sure you can all relate to feeling different from family and friends now - like something permanent has been changed forever).

I also have found a greater amount of empathy for the rest of the world. It does help put life in perspective.

I'm still on this journey of trying to understand why. Everyone says your questions are answered when you get to Heaven but I figure when I get to Heaven all of these earthly questions won't matter to me anymore. It won't matter why my son died because I'll be with him again.

Funny you guys should mention reincarnation. One day my 4.5 yo commented that when he gets to Heaven he won't get to see his brother. I asked him why not and he said because his brother will have already been born again and won't be in Heaven anymore. Out of the mouths of babes, right!


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## mrsbabycakes (Sep 28, 2008)

I've been discussing this a lot, lately.

I'm a Christian. I believe in Christ and His merciful and just love. I'm not Bible-thumping or intolerant of those who don't agree with me. Everyone has their own path to finding Christ, and it's a personal decision. Some people don't make it, and that's their choice. I think it's marvelous that we're offered a choice.

I'm a control freak. It's silly, but I love control. I timed when I got off of BCP so I would get pregnant the last week of October so my baby would be due the last week of July. I used OPK's, I timed my intercourse, I had everything lined up. When the baby died, it sent a shock wave through me. How? Why? Why would God let me get pregnant and not have this baby?

That went away pretty quickly. The grief was there but for one of the first times, I was content with not having control. I just told myself, "There is a reason, and someday I will know it." I'm already feeling that I've learned so much and gained so much from this experience. I've learned more about myself, my strength, and my marriage. Our baby blessed us for 8 weeks, and the experience of having that little life in my womb has continued to bless me. Beyond any expectation of my own, I have survived. I'm stronger than I knew.

My thoughts on prayer have changed. I sensed something wrong in the beginning and never really believed that we'd bring home a baby in July. I was nervous so I thought, "Ask everyone to pray!" So I called all my friends and asked them to pray. I thought that their and my prayers were an insurance policy. I thought they'd guarantee our baby would be okay, or at least help my chances... I was wrong. Prayers are like any request, sometimes they are denied. God has such a big plan for us, and I feel that this baby's short life was part of it. I'm still praying, but with a greater sense of humility and peace. My baby is in God's hands, as am I. I'll get pregnant when it's time, my baby will survive if it's supposed to, and I'll survive either way. God's grace is boundless, and that's been the greatest source of comfort to me so far.


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## Katica (Jan 13, 2008)

I am also a Christian and losing my baby has been very hard. I do not question why He took him/her, I`m not even angry with Him. I do feel anger but not towards anyone or anything in particular (if that makes sense). I do find it cruel that most of my friends are pregnant and are bringing home healthy babies while we are still at square one. But I have decided to trust God. I don`t understand why it happened but I trust the hand that has led me so far.

As for the insensitive comments: sometimes people want to comfort but they don`t know how. Christian or not people are often at a loss of what to say to a hurting friend. I`ve had many well-intentioned but terrible comments after losing my little one.

I`m sorry though that we are all going through this. It truly does stink..


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Semper Gumby;
We can't connect with religious platitudes and euphemisms and I find many of them insulting. [/QUOTE said:


> Sorry, same here.
> 
> I was actually thrown off a grief board recently because I didn't follow the christian party line that the leader wanted me to follow. Their loss.
> 
> You are now living life with no map. You have to accept what your faith tells you or reject your faith. I don't think there's any other way to say it. Good luck to you and sorry for the loss of the little one.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

I wanted to reply to everyones message, but I never thought I would get this many responses in a day. I replied to the first one and then planned to do it until I saw there were so many and I feel like if I tried, I would I guess run out of things to say, as a few seem to follow the same path. I just love all these posts! Thank you for posting. There i was sitting here yesterday thinking I wouldn't get many replies. It's such a taboo subject it seems, but certainly not for me. I'm so sorry for alllll of your losses and hope 2009 is a wonderful year for all of us!


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## mamacita angelica (Oct 6, 2006)

great post.

I consider myself a Buddhist. I also have problems with people saying she is an angel now...I think both of my daughters are angels. not with wings flying around, but they give me faith in something beyond my understanding, maybe faith in the world as a beautiful place. Someone said to me that God wanted my baby for something else. And it made me incredibly angry. I just thought you really don't want to know what I think of a God who takes away babies from good parents.

i think part of what was terrifying for me when I found out Lucia had died was that I sort of had this expectation that the world was a just place. I would have never vocalized it and I never believed God interceded in our everyday lives, but that if you were a good, decent, moral person, the universe would act in kind...but then my baby died. For no reason. She just died. The world felt cold, cruel and chaotic. And when I got home I said something to my husband like, "This is going to be the worst thing that happens in our life." And he just held me and said, "Just because this happened doesn't mean we are now immune from suffering again." That made me shudder. Karma isn't a tit for tat. It doesn't work that way. I have always reminded myself of that, but now, i am really wrestle with it.

But Buddhism has been a great great source of comfort for me right now. Not surprising that the first tenet of the Four Noble Truths is "The world is suffering." For me, it has been helpful to keep remembering that everyone suffers, and I am part of this world. When I was in the hospital waiting to birth Lucia, knowing she was gone already, the nurse gave me a grief package. In it was a pamphlet of what to expect, and a local grief support group's newsletter. The front page on that newsletter had a poem written by someone I know who had lost her son four years ago. We worked together, and when I sat in that bed, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Here I was all wrapped up in my suffering, getting incredibly sort of narcissistic about my grief. "What did this happen to ME? What did I do? Why did MY baby die?" Me. Me. Me. And here was this person who also lost her baby. The fact that I knew her humanized her. I remember her grief, and her sorrow. I remember running into her in the bathroom at work and crying with her. And then it reminded me of this story I once read called *Kisa Gotami and the Mustard Seed*. It began obsessing me. I read it over and over, everyday. It calms me. It reminded me that I couldn't hold on to my daughter's body forever, because it wasn't my daughter. It was the shell that housed my daughter. And it also reminded me that life happens, people die, and we must accept this world for what it is, not what we want it to be. We are fragile beings. We must be kind and good and compassionate and gentle with ourselves and others.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 

I was actually thrown off a grief board recently because I didn't follow the christian party line that the leader wanted me to follow. Their loss.
.

WHAT?? THat's crazy!


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## seafox (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Gumby* 
Before losing Duncan we were atheists (though I had tendencies to Eastern philosophies -- Buddhism, Taoism and Advaita Vedanta). We're still atheists. Neither of us do deities and all that jazz. I think I have more appreciation now for Buddhist, Taoist and the nondualist AV philosophy.

We can't connect with religious platitudes and euphemisms and I find many of them insulting.

Anywho, our feelings toward much of classical theism hasn't changed. We don't wave our fist in the air or stick the big finger to Yahweh and Yeshua or any deity people believe in. We certainly don't believe we're being "punished" for "backslidding." I'm not angry at anything. We also don't believe in fanciful afterlife themes. At most, I like the idea of rebirth (or recycling since matter and energy can never be destroyed) or reincarnation. I think both are fun to entertain. But a blissful paradise? Nah. It also doesn't bring us any comfort, though I know it does for many.

The idea of an afterlife never held any interest or comfort for me either. I strongly believe in this one, only, life. And I actually think that makes me a better person (since I believe everyone has the one life too, so why not try and make everyone's life as good as possible?) so its hard for me to understand most traditional western religions.

I had a miscarriage this summer, and like another poster here, was a bit of a control freak around getting pregnant - it only took one month, I was pretty regimented about taking my temp, getting everything right, and boom, pregnant, easy as pie. (so I thought) Then at our 12wk u/s discovered that I had a missed miscarriage. Though I don't believe in a god or a 'plan' or whatnot, I do have this weird thing where I do feel like most things have a real place in my life. I have no regrets and even tragedies over time I've seen how they've shaped me as a person or shaped my life in some way that I wouldn't want to undo. I tend to appreciate weird coincidences and synchronicities and often think 'it all works out in the end' even if 'its a mystery' why or how.

so I struggled a bit w/ the miscarriage wondering why I 'needed' to have that experience. Then, my best friend got pregnant, unplanned. Turns out she conceived the weekend I had my miscarriage, and I was even up to visit her that weekend. I find this just too uncanny. She even felt terribly guilty, like she had 'stolen my baby'! She had always thought she was going to have fertility issues, and was struggling w/ the fact that she was my age but not in a place yet w/ her life and relationship to start actively trying, etc. Somehow I feel my miscarriage and visiting her that weekend did something, something that she needed, since her relationship is fine and the baby coming is not a big deal at all. Whether I just reminded her that there is no perfect time, or it isn't easy to just decide 'now I'll try' and boom it will work out or what, whether she subconsciously or consciously got pregnant, I don't think it would have happened if I hadn't had the miscarriage.

perhaps its just to make me feel better, but that's fine. I did get pregnant soon after again, and part of me really feels like I almost 'gave' her my first baby, and that's fine, since w/ her one ovary and fertility issues, she needed it. I'm due now 8 wks after her.

Its possible that if I had struggled longer w/ getting pregnant again or had multiple miscarriages (knock on wood, I'm only 19wks now) that I might not feel that way I guess. But either way I'd just think that's the way the cookie crumbles, no plan or god or anything like that.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayJay* 
I haven't been Christian for a long time. I was baptized, yes, but I never felt comfortable as a Christian, even as a small child. I just always felt like I was "faking it". I never found comfort in the rituals or rules, or anything whatsoever.

In my teenage years, my Dad did a lot of research on many religions and when I was about twelve or perhaps a little younger, he started getting very interested in Paganism - Wicca, Druidism and the modern Gaia religion. He bought many books about it and lit candles, started seeking out people with similar beliefs and hey, I read the books, lit the candles and informed myself about the beliefs of these so called "faithless people" and realized that in fact, Pagans hold a very wise, very old and VERY faithful belief system that is based on nature, logic, sympathy and basically "you shouldn't do the sin in the first place" - something I'd always believed.

From then onward I learnt all about Wicca, mostly. As a teenager I practiced sympathetic magic - not in a group of girls dressed in black with goth stuff on, as one might think, but as me, in touch with the earth, by myself or with a couple of friends. I learnt about herbs, life, creating and sustaining life (I had a lot of animals - many of them aquatic because I found them fascinating) - I dug a big pond and filled it with all sorts of life including sticklebacks - tiny fish I used to watch in mating season, with the males, red-bellied, guarding their infants from the bigger fish. I learned about death, and injury, pain, love, all sorts of things.

Wicca and Pagan sympathetic magic is based mostly on herbs and good thoughts. Pagans believe that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back on you three times, so curses by a Wiccan would be rather foolish for that person! Instead they will focus on healing hands, spells that are really almost like prayer but might involve a ritual, such as a binding spell (that's one I remember with a stick, around which you wrap a leather cord or a piece of cotton and then bury it to keep the spell safe). There's nothing to worry about - honestly, Pagans are pretty much all hippies at heart. I've never met a power hungry corporate Pagan in my life









Therefore losing Josie, I felt no anger at the Goddess (our Earth planet). Why? Nothing makes me special - I can commune with her, sure - everyone can, but there is life, there is death, famine, there are storms, acts of nature every single day and I'm not top of the food chain or above natural happenings. What happened with Josie wasn't anyone's "will". To me, that just doesn't make any sense. Josie just happened to die, as some babies do - babies just do that for various reasons. Doesn't mean you're not going to feel as though your heart is torn in two - sure you are: you're a mother. But blaming God? Why would I do that? To me, that's like handing my fate over to some entity instead of forging my own moral way along in the world and accepting life for what it is, and death as part of life. It is part of life.

The Earth is beautiful. I can go outside and sit down in the summertime and I am part of it. She provides us with a beautiful network of life and love and peace - our wonderful ecosystem. She is amazing and helpful and full of energy. I can feel her flowing through me. She will flow through me even more when I'm pregnant - that's a fact, because of the extra life inside me. There's no feeling like it.

She brings me peace all by herself. As Jonie Mitchell once sung, "We are stardust, we are golden - and we've got to find our way back to the garden..." - I cannot feel angry when I am sitting on the greatest life bringing force I know. I will have other children. I will always love Josie. Those two things can live in harmony, twisting around each other in the core of my soul, and that's okay. So mostly, I am peaceful. I prefer being peaceful and watching everything happen and taking joy in it, than raging against nothing.

*HUGS* to all







XXXX

I've heard it many times that we're stardust. I love that. I find certain Pagan traditions appealing. That's probably why I like Taoism so much and identify with pantheism.









I tell myself that when the life-force energy stops operating in my body, the energy that runs it, the stuff that creates butterflies, bliss, and intuition, will re-emerge into the non-physical, and be the being that it is, having transcended all dimensions of limitation and labels. Call it recycling in the naturalistic sense, rebirth or reincarnation.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Angie, I remember reading Kisa Gotami and the Mustard Seed. It really puts things into perspective. Death is a stranger to no one. I had to remind myself that I'm not alone in feeling hurt and heartbroken. Others have been affected by death.

I also started thinking about the the impermanence of life and attachment to ideas and things outside myself. I've picked up reading The Art of Happiness again.


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## diana_of_the_dunes (Dec 7, 2008)

Great question! I am a Christian (raised Catholic), but explored Wicca in my teens, and I think some of that has stuck with me. I've always have a profound reverence for nature and the earth. I believe that God gave us the earth in order to be its stewards, not to rule it or dominate it. For me, this includes eating mostly organic or local foods, staying away from chemicals of all kinds when possible, and trying to live in as natural a state as possible. I know that is normal for a lot of people here, but I consider it a tenant of my religion as well as an ethical responsibility. I don't belong to a church or any faith organization currently. So... That's where I'm coming from...

I had feelings of anger after my miscarriage, but I was angry at my body more than anything. At 10 weeks pg, all that showed on the ultrasound was a yolk sac (possibly two of them, but I never got clarification). My body had been "lying" to me about being pregnant for 6 weeks! I've always had great faith in my body, and I felt betrayed by it.

Although I believe in a loving God, I also believe that God can be vengeful. For that reason, I felt for a time that I _deserved_ the miscarriage. When I was 21, my fiancee (now DH) and I chose to terminate a pregnancy. I was working a crappy job, still in school, and had no health insurance. At the time, neither of us even wanted children. Ever. At the time I believed it wrong for ethical reasons, but went ahead with it anyways. It was ironic that I had the abortion at the same point in my pregnancy that our baby stopped developing.

Now that my head has cleared some, I don't really believe that I was being punished. I don't think that God pointed his finger at me and said, "Your baby shall die because you had an abortion!" I don't think it was fair or unfair. It just happened, but for me there was certainly a lesson in this whole experience, and I have a greater appreciation for how fragile life is. I also found out just how much I wanted a baby. I still trust that God will take care of us, but I know that the way I want or expect things isn't necessarily how it will be. Not necessarily because it's "God's will", but because bad things do happen. It's just the natural way of things, even though it's sometimes terrible and hurtful...


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## JayJay (Aug 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Gumby* 
I've heard it many times that we're stardust. I love that. I find certain Pagan traditions appealing. That's probably why I like Taoism so much and identify with pantheism.









I tell myself that when the life-force energy stops operating in my body, the energy that runs it, the stuff that creates butterflies, bliss, and intuition, will re-emerge into the non-physical, and be the being that it is, having transcended all dimensions of limitation and labels. Call it recycling in the naturalistic sense, rebirth or reincarnation.

I'm with you on the afterlife thing. I think of it like this: there is a constant, floating, moving sea of life all around us - say, around the world like a soap bubble, dark blue and ever churning. Every now and again, a drop falls from the sea and imbues a new human being with soul, life. When that person dies, their life and soul goes back into the bubble - that dark blue sea, and becomes part of it again, mixing with the other life. And so on and so forth


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## bluewatergirl (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Gumby* 
I've heard it many times that we're stardust. I love that. I find certain Pagan traditions appealing. That's probably why I like Taoism so much and identify with pantheism.









I tell myself that when the life-force energy stops operating in my body, the energy that runs it, the stuff that creates butterflies, bliss, and intuition, will re-emerge into the non-physical, and be the being that it is, having transcended all dimensions of limitation and labels. Call it recycling in the naturalistic sense, rebirth or reincarnation.

I really like the above ideas.

While I was raised Christian (American Baptist) I haven't considered
myself particularly religious for a long time, well before my loss . . . .
When we lost our son, the prayer group from the church I went to
as a child and then again, for a while, as a young adult was very
supportive and knit beautiful "prayer shawls" for us; I found it
comforting that they prayed for our son and for us, although prayer
is not something we as a family practice in every day life.
I was a bit surprised myself at how comforting I found their prayers -
I think it was simply that it felt right to us that our son's short
existence was acknowledged and they knew how loved and missed
he was.

Losing him made me think about the powers that be in the universe.
I think, if anything, it made me more . . . spiritual, in a very
Earth and nature-centered way. I appreciate the "circle of life" in
a way I never did before.

I'm not sure about re-incarnation, but I feel strongly about the idea
of the soul's energy continuing on.
I see another poster started a thread about Spirit Babies with an
excerpt from _The Baby Catcher_ - I find it a comforting and
beautiful thought that our little lost ones somehow return.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayJay* 
I'm with you on the afterlife thing. I think of it like this: there is a constant, floating, moving sea of life all around us - say, around the world like a soap bubble, dark blue and ever churning. Every now and again, a drop falls from the sea and imbues a new human being with soul, life. When that person dies, their life and soul goes back into the bubble - that dark blue sea, and becomes part of it again, mixing with the other life. And so on and so forth









Ahhhh! im starting to think a lot like that too. maybe im being selfish, but i just cannot accept that this is "it". Know what i mean? grrrr.....lol even if my baby girl is in someones arms right now i only hope that she was given to a wonderful momma and daddy! like we would have been to her. soooo many conclusions. so many questions. but for now, i don't care. as long as she is HAPPY.







somewhere,.......somehow..........................


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## mamacita angelica (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Gumby* 
Angie, I remember reading Kisa Gotami and the Mustard Seed. It really puts things into perspective. Death is a stranger to no one. I had to remind myself that I'm not alone in feeling hurt and heartbroken. Others have been affected by death.

I also started thinking about the the impermanence of life and attachment to ideas and things outside myself. I've picked up reading The Art of Happiness again.

That is a beautiful book. Other books that have been incredibly helpful is Pema Chodron's books When Things Fall Apart, and The Wisdom of No Escape. Well, for me anyway.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

i gotta get me those books!







i loveeeee books. could read allll day.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

My faith has taken an awful beating since my first loss in feb 2007. I tried to remain "faithful" but when I lost my third baby in 10 months, two of them 2nd trimester losses...I lost it all.

I'm not sure what I believe now. I am jealous of people who have found comfort in God during their most difficult times. I haven't found any. I feel that all I have found is pain. I've lost not only my babies and my faith in God, but faith in my body too. I'm actually feeling quite out of control. My dh has also lost his faith. We both just don't understand, and I'm afraid we never will. But I'm not content with that at all. I know a lot of people who are, but not me. I find myself screaming, "WHY?" in my head and heart all of the time.

I'm sure it's common, to struggle with religion and faith in hard times though. I hope I find my way again.


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## diana_of_the_dunes (Dec 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
My faith has taken an awful beating since my first loss in feb 2007. I tried to remain "faithful" but when I lost my third baby in 10 months, two of them 2nd trimester losses...I lost it all.

I'm not sure what I believe now. I am jealous of people who have found comfort in God during their most difficult times. I haven't found any. I feel that all I have found is pain. I've lost not only my babies and my faith in God, but faith in my body too. I'm actually feeling quite out of control. My dh has also lost his faith. We both just don't understand, and I'm afraid we never will. But I'm not content with that at all. I know a lot of people who are, but not me. I find myself screaming, "WHY?" in my head and heart all of the time.

I'm sure it's common, to struggle with religion and faith in hard times though. I hope I find my way again.

I tried to send you a PM, but your mailbox is full... I'll just post here, and you can PM me if you'd like.

I'm so sorry to hear you're going through such a rough time, both spiritually and emotionally. Having several miscarriages in a row would be devastating. You mentioned in your post about feeling out of control... I think that's been a huge issue with me as well. When I was a teenager, I became very angry with God after a family friend's 4 month old baby died of cancer. I can't (and still don't) understand why God would allow something so terrible to happen. That prompted several years of agnosticism and research into other religions. In particular, the "pagan" and earth-worshipping religions really struck a chord. I started to look at nature, and what a miracle it is that everything works the way it does. Somewhere along the way, I ended up with a profound faith in the very same God I had been so mad at years ago. For me, the turning point was when I accepted that I _wasn't_ in control. I _don't_ understand. And, most importantly for me, there was nothing at all I could do to change either one of those realizations. It doesn't matter if you believe in God, Allah, Gaia, or nothing at all... There are things that happen, bad things, and you will never ever understand why or have been able to do anything to prevent them. That might not sound very optimistic, but for me, it was liberating. I wanted so badly for everything in my life to fit into neat, organized little boxes. But it didn't. Once I accepted that it was all to big for me, I was able to stop trying to control aspects of my life that I couldn't change and focus on the things I could (which sometimes seem very small and few).

I don't know what exactly my point is, but I guess I just wanted you to know that you're not alone. Blind, untested faith in anything isn't healthy or realistic. Only by questioning and getting through hard times can your faith grow and become stronger. I don't know if anyone goes through a tragedy without wondering why it's happening. It's taken me a full two months after my miscarriage to be able to sometimes see the beauty in the world again. Occasionally, I even feel contented and optimistic. Give yourself time to heal. Hopefully, your long hard road will eventually lead you to peace.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, and you'll be in my prayers.


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## whitneymum (Dec 29, 2008)

hugs to you mama

I'm not sure if a PP mentioned the book "When Bad Things Happen To Good People"
kinda hokey name, I know..but a wonderful tangible way to walk through loss with someone who has been there and questioned religion/faith. I've used it extensively..re-read it and now keep an extra copy handy. It doesn't have all the answers..(but who does)but I think it does well to express religion/faith and loss..without the pat answer of "there's a plan" .

peace and hope to you today mama


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## amlikam (Nov 19, 2008)

I can only hope that the loss of our lo at 21 weeks - and the other losses- were to help us enjoy every moment we have with our DD now.

I can't believe in much when I reflect back. several years later I still can feel the same pain inside as I did those mornings being picked up off the bathroom floor by my husband as I howled and beat the floor with my fists.

But when I recall the day our DD was born and smell her sweet breath on my face as we sleep... I believe in so much.

I cannot let those losses be in vain - so I don't harbor the same anger I had. And looking back I can see why it might have happened, how we weren't ready ect... and every day I woke with my DD pregnancy I feared it would happen all over again.

But having lost my mother just before my 12th bday, family and friends and the babies... Its hard to find solace in christianity. God is supposed to be loving and good... How could someone lovingly take a child from its mother?

I am spiritual not religious these days... and try to live my life and a strong ethical fashion which I can be proud of.

I knew I shouldn't have read this post- it brings me back to the places charges with the most emotions so now I am here crying at work as I pump...

My heart goes out to all of you who have had loss.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

I am a committed Christian. I have been for most of my life.

After we lost our first I didn't even realize that I was angry at God. I was avoiding dealing with it. I refused to talk about it. Many of my casual friends still don't know that I had a miscarriage.

A few months after the miscarriage I was in church for one of the first times. During praise and worship I felt so disconnected. I began to try to figure out why then WHAM it hit me that I was so angry. I completely lost it. I was sobbing so hard I had to sit down.

I was so mad. Every time I saw a woman with a baby I'd ask "why her and not me God?"

I've come to a place of peace now. I *do not* believe God killed my baby or needed another angel. God does not need more angels and I don't believe people don't become angels when they die anyway. (which my lost babe isn't in my sig as an angel) God does not kill babies. It's a fallen world and sometimes babies die, but God does not plan it. Every good and perfect gift comes from above and the devil is the one who comes to steal kill and destroy.

I believe God sent my DH a dream of our son in heaven around the time he would have been born.


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## ratrodgrl (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm just now back after being with my mother-in-law while she died. Interestingly enough, her 2nd child was stillborn over 30 years ago, and I know that we derived a lot of comfort knowing that when she left us here she was being reunited with her son that she never got to know in this life.

When I miscarried, I had had misgivings the whole pregnancy about how my body just didn't feel 'normal' for pregnancy. Part of me wasn't surprised, the other part was devastated. We'd tried for so long, it was like why did I get pregnant just to have the babe taken from me? Why not just not be able to conceive for X # of months?

This quote spoke to me (below). I had a moment in my grief where I wanted to scream at God why had He taken my baby from me? But no sooner had the thought crossed my mind than I saw/felt His sorrow, and knew that the loss of life and the ensuing pain was just as grieving to Him as to me.

I don't think that the bad things happen for a "reason" if it means, so that we could learn a lesson. That is a disgusting thought, and I wonder if people who say that there's a bigger reason for loss like this ever follow their comment to its logical conclusion. However, I know that there were some gray linings to the black cloud, and things to be grateful for in spite of the badness of it all. I do _not_ believe that God causes these things so that we can see some good in spite of the bad, but I know that it is there nevertheless.

I haven't questioned my faith or walked away from God, but I do feel like I have a lot of bruising and need to be handled gently.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheshire* 

I am angry with God. But, as much as I want to be angry and just turn my back I "hear" his voice in my soul. I hear that it's okay to be angry and that He's here with me. I feel His grief, too. DH says he feels the same thing. I am comforted even through my anger. It is hard to explain but I feel like I am even more sure He exists because of this. Before I was kind of sure but now I just know it deep down.


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## amrijane128 (Jan 6, 2007)

I have been struggling. A lot.

As a kid, we were "Christmas christians." Though I was baptized Catholic. I never felt comfortable in churches I still don't. We do not attend them.

Yet somewhere a long the line I started praying. I began "speaking" to the few angel sculptures and other Christian objects that I have. Sometimes I still do. Sometimes I'll still touch a cross, wishing something would happen. I had a strong faith in Jesus at one point. But hated the bible. I say God bless you and I send people prayers. But sometimes I don't believe.

I am afraid of death. I am afraid of being taken from my daughter or her being taken from me. Likewise with my husband and all of those that I love. I take serious comfort in "knowing" of an afterlife. I pray and pray that if any of us die, we will immediately reunite on a cloud in heaven and live life in a perfect utopia. But sometimes I doubt it.

I'm also a hippie Christian. I love the little bit that I know about Paganism, and sometimes would love to convert. I believe in mother earth, spirits, and naturalistic recycling as another poster mentioned more beautifully. But I feel like I would be betraying the God that has given me so much comfort. I have been avoiding mixing Jesus and this miscarriage by all costs. I just prefer not to think about it.

I'm confused. Really freaking confused. I want a religion. I want something to believe. But I don't know what to believe in. This experience has made it come to the surface, it has really tested my faith... or lack thereof.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I already was considering joining UU before my loss, and my beliefs in that sense haven't really changed. But I did find it both interesting and comforting to read old prayers and stories from different religions, from times when infant loss and stillbirth were so common that they were taken for granted. The fact is that most major religions have some sort of provisions for losing a child, at some point in their history, and I think some modern churches (especially) have lost their systematization and ritualization of it.


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## ktarsha (Jul 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy* 
I'm not sure what I believe now. I am jealous of people who have found comfort in God during their most difficult times. I haven't found any. I feel that all I have found is pain. I've lost not only my babies and my faith in God, but faith in my body too. I'm actually feeling quite out of control. My dh has also lost his faith. We both just don't understand, and I'm afraid we never will. But I'm not content with that at all. I know a lot of people who are, but not me. I find myself screaming, "WHY?" in my head and heart all of the time.

Yes, this is me exactly, except that my husband hasn't lost his faith. I lashed out one day and said something about why should I worship a God who kills my unborn babies; now I think he's worried about me, although he doesn't say as much. I still go to church, still tell my son about Jesus and make sure prayers are part of his routine. But it's like it's all an act, like I'm doing it because I've always done it and because I want my son to have the security of the beliefs I used to have. I haven't completely lost faith; I still feel there's some sort of higher power, but I'm seriously questioning what I've always believed. I keep thinking I ought to talk to a priest or religious counselor about this, but I haven't done so because I'm afraid that I'll just get the old "It happened for a reason that only God knows" line, and I simply can't accept that.

And, like the OP mentioned, I've wondered, if God really cares, why does he give an innocent baby to a drug addict, a child abuser, someone who doesn't want or can't care for it, but take away the pregnancies of someone like me or my friend or my sister, who can and would love and care for a child.

I've got a long way to go before I work out how I really feel about it all.


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