# violent play



## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

My son is four and doing a lot of violent play. Specifically, he pretends to have a gun and shoot "bad guys". He makes shooting noises and it just about breaks my heart.

Lately I am not sure how to respond to this. I initially responded by talking incessantly about how there were no bad guys, pointing out that there really is no one who is perfectly good or evil. Talked about how guns hurt people and animals, talked about violence, etc. Talked about how the "bad guy's mommy" might feel, etc. So blah blah blah, talk talk talk. He tells me, "It's not *real* it is pretend!!!

So I dont' want to get in his face every time he's playing with other kids. Other kids' moms allow this kind of play, even AP moms. I dont' know what to do. I admit, I don't want to "control" his playing, and I don't know that I really could if I tried.

I must confess that while I restrict television shows to ones where people speak gently to each other, no violence, etc, I do let him play Zelda, which is a nintendo 64 video game. He loves this game. A hero character and fairy sidekick go through fantasy locales collecting tools (sigh, including a sword and shield and bombs) and trying to rescue Zelda. I know, I know, it is all the good vs. evil, use violence to solve problems stuff I am trying to avoid. But damn, he loves it. Adventure! Excitement! Problem solving. Son playing independently while I am cooking/cleaning/etc!







And why do we have this game? Because I loved to play it before he was born. So yes, his play very much acts out the sword fighting stuff.

So, I'm conflicted.

My son is very verbal, understands the concept of "violence" and has been talking about that concept for over a year.

Please make suggestions.

ox pam


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

We have never allowed guns in the house but the boys will make a gun out of anything. I don't get it, legos, sticks, anything.

I think you give your message by not giving guns as toys and I wouldn't be concerned about the typica (ug) shoot 'em boy play.

Don't like it and they know it!!

DB


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't have kid's that old yet, but I remember in my Child Development class that they have to go through a black/white phase....everything is either good or bad, nothing in between. They aren't really capable of the complexities of thought that are required for the shades of gray you and I think in. If I feel up to it later (not feeling well right now) I will dig out my book and give you more info. The basic idea is that they, developmentally, have to get a firm foundation of black/white to be able to build on it later.

Our friend's youngest son (3 yo) has started that stage right now...lots of swordplay and good/bad guy stuff. It is driving them nuts because he is also making weapons out of everything. His older brother went through the same thing and doesn't really do it so much any more (5 yo)


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## pixie-n-hertwoboys (Aug 17, 2003)

Yep I do believe this is a normal boy stage (or i hope its a stage!) because my 3 y/o does this also. He makes guns and the shooting noise out of anything - straws, trucks w/ cranes, you name it. Where he picked it up is prob. from dh star wars game on xbox.....







: anyway, ds knows mommy doesn't like it and that guns give ouchies and its not nice to do that - esp to our baby brothers face.









I think that just knowing that mommy doesn't like it and gentle reminders - and after its out of their systems it will be a thing of the past.????


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Ha! I got the _"Its just pretend, MOM!"_ thing too. Along with the eye-rolling. I think this stage lasted from about age 4 to age 6 and then disappeared all together.

For whatever reason, I think these are things they *need* to act out. I don' t know why -- but issues of good/evil and death are concepts they need to wrestle with. And we know that children wrestle with ideas by play.

So long as he wasn't using hurtful words or behaviors toward friends, I let it go. ("Bad guys" usually consisted of trees or stuffed animals.)


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Well, I have a girl, but I'll chime in, because after DD's last playdate (she's five), she informed me that, "Maddy and I were pretending to kill the dolls and they were all dead. It was easy to pretend because some of them have closed eyes."










I just said, "Mmmmmmm...so, sweetie, why don't we read a story or play a game or something?"

I think that kids just act out these sort of things to gain power over what frightens them - death, injury, etc., and that making a huge deal over it will only cause problems. Ignoring it as long as it isn't upsetting anyone (for example, if one child cries that his brother keeps "shooting" him) is probably the best thing to do. And of course, keep all toys that can only be used in violent ways out of the home (as well as videos so on of that nature).


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## sparrow (Nov 19, 2001)

i started a thread about this over in the childhood years forum... didn;t realize that this one was hear.

i am conflicted about this, but i also own the problem-- i am the one with an issue about guns. that sort of play makes me feel uncomfortable. but i also feel that stopping him from this sort of play is probably not only not a good idea, but probably impossible as well.

anyway, i am enjoying reading everyone's perspective on this.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Same here. 8 y/o dd never played with guns, never built guns, never made noises like guns...
3 y/o ds builds "fire sticks"...out of legos, tinker toys, the toy doctor kit shot







:

He also makes shooting noises. He doesn't actually know the word "gun". At Christmas dinner at my sisters, a toy gun was mixed in with the legos...a real- sized gun...I wouldn't let him play with it...he had a FIT. I felt terrible, but I just couldn't see him playing with it









It has to be a boy thing! Don't flame me for that, please!

He is just so cute and sweet otherwise. We don't watch much tv, certainly not violent shows. But I do think he saw a "clip", while dh was "clicking" once, literally one visual.

I agree about not controlling his play, and modeling positive behavior. He got a wooden sword for Christmas and loves it. He hasn't hurt anyone yet and plays "knight".


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Wow...I know I replied already, but I came home from DD's preschool today (it's a co-op) shocked at the gun play and other violent play by, I am sorry to say, most of the boys in the class.

Now, the teachers have a "no weapons in school" rule, and that includes weapons made out of fingers or Legos or whatever else. But teachers don't see everything, of course. I was actually quite impressed with the detail one boy put into his gun, constructed out of blocks that fasten with metal snaps. When the teachers remind them of the gun rule, they are quite creative about finding a loophole - "This isn't a gun, Mrs. W, this is a foam sprayer...it sprays stinky foam at the bad guys!"

What can you do?


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I agree that I think it is a boy thing. My oldest ds has a few girls that come to play and they do not want to play this sort of thing, so they end up playing house!









That being said, I too dislike gun play. However for us we let the boys run with their imagination and if that takes them into battle then there is really nothing I can do. They know I don't like the pointing the "gun" ( usually a finger) in the face or shooting each other. They usually "shoot" the bads guys and I think this is just the way they deal with things that scare them. They always win the fight. I have to say that neither of them has bad dreams or believes in monsters so maybe the gunplay has had a part in that.
When I see that they are getting too riled up I usually say " Ok time for a new game" and they know that it's time to stop.

Just keep talking to him about how guns are not safe, and that ppl get hurt and things like that. I talk about this with my boys all the time, I also ask things like what if your friend had a real gun would you play with it? And things like that. The gunplay lends itself for me to the fear of real guns in other ppls homes







: I dread the day my boys are old enough for drop off playdates. I am going to be a major pain about fully knowing any parents that I do this with. Good luck!


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

We have swords and bows and arrows, but I had drawn the line at guns. In our culture, sword and bows are often used in sport, but rarely for murder. The same can not be said of guns, so that's where I made the distinction. But then one of the grandads made ds (age 6) a wooden hunting rifle that shoots rubber bands. Since ds had gone hunting before, he knew what the gun was for pretending about. Grandad told him that guns are for hunting, and even play guns must never be pointed at a person. He told him that the gun is made of wood and that if he ever pointed it at a person it would be burned in the woodstove. Now, this is not our parenting style, and I was pretty peeved, especially since we weren't even asked before the gift was presented. Still, I bit my tongue and honestly it's gone well. I used to think I wouldn't allow any violent play of any kind, but now I see dh and ds stick fighting and so on, and they are having fun. They aren't trying to injure one another, they're just getting some excercise and building coordination etc. Not to mention the bonding. I still struggle with the whole 'bad guy' thing. I try not to control too much, but I do offer some alternatives, like teaching the bad gus how to be nice, or even putting them in jail.


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## HRC121799 (Aug 8, 2003)

How long does this phase last? Because my 4 y.o. & my 4.5 y.o. nephew are in the thick of it. The bang bang bang, I'm getting the guy with my blaster gun kind of play. I just try to re-direct, saying how about we play something nice. It's hard to know what to do, the boys know how I feel about it...to them, it's just fun and pretending.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

I struggled with this for so long with my oldest son (almost 6). We, like many here, don't watch violent TV. PBS is what they are allowed to watch, tv is not even on in the evening. So, we were baffled as to how this could have happened to our sweet boy. As I type this he keeps running in the house to get another crayon to use as sticks of dynamite. I tried the ranting about how guns kill people and make families sad...I tried redirecting his play...I tried the "there are no BAD people, just people who do bad things"...I tried pretty much everything I could think of to get him to stop. Then a lightbulb went off in my head (finally). I realized that he was trying to make sense of this world we live in. He always wants to be the superhero, the one to get the bad guy. It makes so much sense to me now! He once told me "mom, the more you try to make me not play guns, the more I want to be a war boy". So, I stopped. He doesn't play violently, but definately wants his weapons nearby at all times for protection. He makes them out of EVERYTHING! My midwife joked about this with me saying, "you can take everything away from them so they won't turn it into a gun, but then you give them a graham cracker and they'll chew it into the shape of a gun". It's so bizarre to me but, I have completely come to terms with it. The hard part for me is other parents...those whose children are into other things and give you "the look" when they see your child playing with weapons (of the lego, tinkertoy, stick variety). But, I see some very imaginative play in all of this. It opens the way for us to talk about lots of things that concern him. He definately does not idealize war or violence. I think if anything he has this interest because he is so sensitive and this world is scary at times. I now will play act with him, and in this way I feel like I have a better understanding of why he does this.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

22 years ago, when my ds was a boy......I didnt allow guns or weapons of any kind in the house. My ds was quite the artist, even at age 4. Well, he would make guns out of cardboard etc......that had moving parts to them! for me, that was using his imagination.....usually the guns would disappear after a day or two.

Recently I visited my now 26 year old son......and asked him if he was affected by my "no weapons policy". He said this....."well, I would play with them at friends houses......or make my own.....but really, it was no big deal. I liked them, but dont have a fascination with them as an adult bc they were kept away from me as a child".

Phew!


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I honestly don't know if he does not have a fascination because he wasn't allowed to have them, it could have gone in the other direction, he IS taken with guns as an adult because he couldn't have them as a child, kwim?

I think some men grow up to want to shoot guns ( whether it be for hunting or marksmanship teams) and others have no interest. Both my brothers had access to toy guns as kids, one is a corrections officer who collects guns and the other wants nothing to do with them. I think it is just a matter of taste as an adult and that even if I let my boys play with them does not mean they will be obsessed with them as grown men


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## K&JsMaMa (May 26, 2002)

This is a fantastic thread.

I have a 9 yr old ds who has BTDT. He still likes to sword fight (like my dh, he an SCA fencer)

DS 2 is 4.5 yrs and is in the thick of it also. Everything is about fighting, guns, swords, axes, knives.....I'm horrified. But, and I hate to say it, boys will be boys. They just love this stuff.

It seems to simmer down around 6 or 7. It must just be developmental cuz for my 4.5 yr old, there's a bad guy around every corner and he's ready and willing to conquer it.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *omegamama*
I now will play act with him, and in this way I feel like I have a better understanding of why he does this.

y'all gotta check out "playful parenting" by lawrence cohen. he addresses violent play specifically and advocates doing what omegamama is and joining in. you don't have to gleefully gun down everything in your path when you play. you can interject a bit of compassion by pretending to be a medic, "oh no, did he get you? are you hurt?", etc, etc. really, check out the book. he helped me understand a lot about violent play and how not to squelch it because as some of the other posters said play is how kids work through big concepts they're grappling with. he has a website at http://www.playfulparenting.com , too.

hth


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

We have swords and bows and arrows, but I had drawn the line at guns.










We have a pretty strict no gun policy and we also don't play killing. Ds is 6 and this has never been an issue. He even takes the little plastic guns out of his Playmobil stuff and throws them away.

That being said, I consider myself lucky. I think he is ok with the no gun thing because of who he is, not by any magic of our parenting. If he was the type of child that was fascinated by guns, I really don't know what I would have done. I would never buy a "toy" gun, but if he made one I would continue with the dialog and try to ignore the gun-play if it wasn't blatantly in my face. I would never allow my child to point a gun at someone and pretend to kill them.

My friend used to tell her ds that bad guys need love, so you can shoot love at them. I don't think it worked, but it was fun to hear.


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## sparrow (Nov 19, 2001)

and now it is squirt gun season.

the idea of pointing a gun at a another human makes me-the-parent cringe in horror.

but i loved squirt guns as a kid. i had a child offer one to my ds at the pool the other day. i declined the invitation, saying that we don't play with guns in out family. but somehow, i feel that my ideals are turning me into an uptight party pooper.

i think i may have to take the playful parenting approach & join in. all of my trips that i have been laying on DS are really only serving to distance him from me, after all. joining in might allow him to feel that i am on his side, instead of just the one who makes the rules about what is acceptable.


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## Tales from the Dad (May 24, 2004)

I grew up with squirt guns and all the old school violent cartoons as a boy. my brother and I once even filled our squirt guns with red kool-aid so that we'd be bloody looking!

and now I'm a gun-toting freak!







: :LOL

just kidding

I don't own a gun or have any gun obsessions, so imho your boys may survive too









I've never encouraged the gun-play or gi-joes with my own son (now 5) and he only watches pbs-kids. he does have one squirt-gun now that a friend gave him, he doesn't really seem to distinguish between using it and hosing people down with the garden hose, so we think we'll allow it...


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## Retro (May 24, 2004)

I think that worrying about children and violent play should be the least of your worries. Boys will be boys rings a bell as has been pointed out. You must remember that boys have been playing violently for generations. I have no doubt the Greatest Generation also played cowboys and indians, and they turned out to be Americas golden generation of integrity and morality. Heck, they even helped save the world.

Me and my cousings used to play war with acorns, toy guns, ect. With maturity those games will pass into your childs past and will ultimatly subside. As a tyke I would play with my cousins for hours. Looking back on highschool I was a model student with no disciplinary infractions, no dresscode violations, never was in a fight, and never gotten a speeding ticket during my teen years. (wish I could still keep that one up








The violent play does not create a violent child if you have done your part to instill in them moral values and ethics. A child who plays violent games and lives in an violent invironment with poor parental guidance will grow to be violent adults. Children who *play* violent games and live in a peacefull environment with lots of love and parental guidance will not develop into violent adults. Simple.

I just thought I would share this with you. The anti-violence sentiment is overall good, but let the children play. Its what kids do best. Countless adult males have survived violent play to become moral and responsible adults. Relax, its part of growing up.
Ease up and let them play.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Children who *play* violent games and live in a peacefull environment with lots of love and parental guidance will not develop into violent adults.

As someone who is against violence and guns......violent play may be a normal part of how boys play for generations, but I still dont feel comfortable seeing it happen. I dont know whether the dc's my dd may come across have morals instilled in them from their parents, making it ok to play this way (in your opinion). I prefer my dd NOT have guns/swords or other weapons to play with. And Im glad I raised my ds without these kinds of toys, whether it made a difference or not. I also will not be allowing Barbies in the house, for the same reasons as weapons......it's what the toy represents.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

We draw the line at gun play. My son does not live in an environment where guns are a part of his life. He does not watch anything on television that would expose him to guns, he does not play video games that have guns, and he doesn't live in a house with guns. When he started preschool at age 3 1/2, there was a short period of time when he was making guns out of legos, sticks, etc, but that "phase" ended as soon as one particular child left the center. I'm inclined to think that his brief obsession with guns had more to do with this other child than any kind of "natural" phase.

I don't think there is any kind of biologically induced stage of development that MUST involve guns. That isn't to say that I don't think that weapon play is normal, but I also don't think I'm depriving my child of anything by refusing to let him play with guns. Guns are not toys. The sole purpose of a gun is to injure or kill. We're more relaxed on other types of weapon play, light sabres come to mind, because he isn't likely to find a light sabre lying on the side of the road and accidently kill or injure himself or someone else with it. I know in the past he has played with toy guns at the homes of other kids, but most of his friend's parents have known that I don't allow gun play, and he has been known to come home when other kids play with guns. I haven't seen him pretend something is a gun or heard him talk about guns in almost a year. He's six.

I don't really have a problem with the "dead" play stuff. Death is something that kids have a hard time understanding, and I think play can help them deal with that. My 6yo and his friend had this game they used to play with pillows and stuffed animals that involved the pillows, who were the parents, dying and the stuffed animals, who were the children, burying the parents and then taking over the things the parents used to do. Sometimes the pillows died because the stuffed animals accidently killed them, mostly they died because they did something they weren't supposed to do. The little girl's aunt had just died, and I guess that was her way of dealing with it on some level. She could control who died and how when they played, and I wasn't about to deny her that. It was a bit disturbing to hear them playing this game, and they played it only for a few weeks, but I try not to pretend that I know what goes through a kid's mind. Kids are just on a different world.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Retro*
Children who *play* violent games and live in a peacefull environment with lots of love and parental guidance will not develop into violent adults. Simple.

Good to know *something* in parenting is simple. :LOL

I want to respond more seriously to your post, when I have more time to concentrate. Maybe like, in five years? I'll try and get to it sooner.








to MDC and GD. Looks like this is your first post on the board.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I'm fresh off reading Playful Parenting which really set my mind at ease about aggressive/violent play. The insights in this book further reassured me that DS seems to be quite adept at learning about and dealing with strong emotions and aggressive actions. Having observed him lately, it's clear he's working this stuff out for himself. He big on role play and lately he's often pretending to be an ANGRY t-rex or a GRUMPY Lion or whatever. Clawing, biting and all. I'm quite accepting of it and frankly, since he's been working things out through play (particularly playing with DH and/or I), he's been completely mellow with playmates... before the playing arrived on the seen, we went through a short hitting period which was upsetting inititally until I figured out what was going on. Now he's got a safe place to act things out, and he seems much more relaxed about being with playmates. *whew* Incidentally, his closest playmate and DS have begun to wrestle a bit with each other. His playmate, a girl started it. I was taken aback at first but they both looked at me and said, "But we're having fun." I shrugged and went on my merry way... but I still kept my eye on them just in case. They were laughing so hard and seemed to have a pretty good idea of the boundaries for play fighting... I was pretty impressed!

Strong and aggressive emotions are normal, for all of us. The compulsion to act on them is something kids/people need to work out, and understand the boundaries of. If kids have found a way to achieve this without actually hurting each other (and with an adult close by to monitor so as not to let things escalate to that level), well then... I inclined to say, why not?

Normal, but I admit, I look forward to the day when I not talking to an "angry t-rex" half the afternoon!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Oh, I almost forgot! One thing I keep in mind about all of this is DH... the biggest pacifist you'll ever meet. Sweet, thoughtful, intelligent and well, a certified anti-gun guy. His favorite toy as a kid, his COMFORT item if you will? A holster and pistols. Never took them off. Not even for church! :LOL


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Retro*
Relax, its part of growing up.
Ease up and let them play.

Retro, it may not have been your intention but your words here feel condescending to me.


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## drkevin (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
Retro, it may not have been your intention but your words here feel condescending to me.

Nothing about that seems condescending to me. The entire post seems well thought out and is pretty much right on the money. Perhaps you are more than a little biased against the point he is trying to make?


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Bias aside, I feel uncomfortable when someone tells me to "relax" and "ease up" regarding my parenting concerns.

I appreciate that Retro is trying to allay my concerns. I am actually hoping that violent play IS simply a part of growing up, but my hippie inner voice keeps telling me to resist the violence!

I don't' think the poster meant to condescend, but the authoritative tone of the post made me feel a bit preached to. As I said before, I don't think this was his intention. (Her intention?)








:


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Pamelamama, thank you for starting this discussion. Very helpful, interesting and reassuring. I recommend the book I mentioned by the way (_Playful Parenting_ by L. Cohen). It was a true gem of a parenting book and as I said, really set my mind at ease with regard to all of this.

Retro - I appreciated what you had to say. My initial feelings about violence in play were very mixed. Being a pacifist myself, I was a little unnerved. You post however confirmed what I've been reading and been observing in DS. Your point about children who play violently _without_ the benefit of adult guidance is key. Play is indeed a kid's job, their MO if you will. It's how they learn surely, but it's also very important in helping them work all things out. Strong emotions and aggressive behaviors do need to be played in order for them to be addressed and worked out. I found your insights (and life history) reassuring. And of course, I have DH to fall back on to... those pistols! Thanks.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

FYI: drkevin and retro have been banned as trolls. I will see if I can remove their posts.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

Pam, I can loan you my Playful Parenting if you want to read it. I love it, so I'll want it back though!!!!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mocha09*
Pam, I can loan you my Playful Parenting if you want to read it. I love it, so I'll want it back though!!!!

























see you tomorrow then?


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

I'm going to decide at the last minute and refuse to be pinned down.










......most likely though!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Mocha09, Indeed, I have been loaning out my copy of Playful Parenting with the caution of: I WILL ask for this back! It's almost too good to let go of... I find myself referencing it a lot these days!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Oh, Pamelamama, thanks for the word up... _on trolldom that is._







: I did find Retro's post helpful, but in doing some seaching about, I also wonder about the "intention" you were concerned about. The overall sentiment of the post is now a bit tainted for me (in that we stand in very different corners with regard to weapons).

I wanted to make clear that I've learned ways to help DS work through strong emotions. I can accept all those strong emotions, but of course can't accept all actions (i.e., it's fine if you feel very angry and want to hit. It's not fine that some living creature is the target). In other words, I'm hoping to help him understand and learn boundaries by accepting his feelings and giving him appropriate outlets for them (role play has been veryhelpful for us), but I in no way encourage him to BE aggressive. If that makes any sense... I realize my posts are a bit muddled--always in a hurry! Indeed, if you do happen to get a copy of the book from Mocha you'll understand where I'm coming from I think. Hope you enjoy it, a good real overall.









The best,
Em


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## honeybear's mommy (Feb 27, 2004)

wow, i think i've been going overboard, thanks for the reality check!!!
my ds is almost 26 months and he likes to crash his cars together, he gives me one and takes one for himself and chases my car to crash into it, and i keep telling him to drive nicely and that its "ouies" to crash into other cars and not nice and i tell him that i don't want to play crash cars...so now i'm reading all of your posts and thinking oh god!...i shouldn't be taking it so seriously and hurting his little feelings by not "liking" the way he wants to play with me. i just saw it as the "first signs" to violent play and figured he's picked it up from playing with his little playmate (son of good friend who does my childcare for me) or from other playdates?
I also worry that i'm the only person i know who would dissaprove of kids crashing cars together!
a couple days ago i was watching a grownup movie (but not anything too controversial) and anyways i forgot about the previews, well before i could get to the VCR there was guns on my screen and my son saw me going to switch it and he was saying uh-oh or owies or something like that, and i wondered where he had even learned that, i don't allow ANY exposure to guns on tv, we don't even have cable!
it's so scary to think how much they will learn from others (i am at times like this regretfully a working mother








so any advice?
i think i might need some help keeping it all in perspective, but i am soooo against him picking unhealthy stuff up from the media or even other people's "unenlightened" feelings about topics


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

A friend of the family just bought ds the most horrific robot that comes equipped with a "shooter" (as ds calls them). This is the second one he's been given in under a year. I disappeared the first because I couldn't stand having it in the house. I have a major intolerance for guns and violence. This one isn't going to be disappearing, though - he's absolutely wild about it. Right now, I've sequestered the "shooter" but I'm thinking perhaps I should just let him have it. He's 3.5. He's a compassionate kid, he's gentle with other people and animals (and bugs, even). But he's in this thing where he wants to shoot half the things he sees and save the other half from the half he shoots (he calls himself a "hero" :LOL). Stifling this sort of play seems to really be putting distance between us.... he actually looks at me as though I don't understand him.

Maybe it's time to ease up for awhile. I mean, my brother and I used to play with cap guns and water guns and we're actually both pretty sensitive to violence. I just don't know... it seems less innocuous when it's a plastic toy, though, than when it's his finger.


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## siouxbee (Jan 18, 2002)

Just to chime in -- my son is a few months shy of turning 4 and I've been grappling with this issue for some time now. Thanks to ever generous family members, he's got a veritable arsenal in his playroom. Three star wars light sabers, at least 14 swords, tho I think some were missing when I counted, two bow and arrows, a plastic bowie knife, and probably something else I can't think of right now. Not to mention the hatched, made of a big rock tied with twine to a stick, that my mother in law made for him. Of which I promptly disposed. But as you can see, he's well equipped for the role playing of aggressive behavior.

my question is this -- i've tried to make it such that the rules are no hitting people with swords, which seems to be his weapon of choice, since the guns have all "mysteriously" disappeared (I do draw some lines). Anyway, you can only hit someone else's sword, not their body. But in the heat of battle, he can easily lose control and ends up stabbing his playmate. Which isn't such a big deal when it's daddy, but is of concern to me when it's one of his peers. How do I handle this? At present, I've banned swordplay when friends are over, so he can only do it with dad. But I've found that he finds things to stab them iwth anyway, sot hat's obviously not working. And it's not malicious, at least it doesn't seem to be. He just gets carried away with the fantasy and forgets to control himself.

Secondly, lately when I tell him something he doesn't want to hear (stop doing this or that, please apologize to daddy for talking to him like that, etc) he will either make a gun out of his fingers and shoot me or if I'm physically restraiing him in some way (picking him up to stop him from running away while I have a serious chat with him) he will pull my hair, hit me, etc. I go through the usual please don't do that that hurts routine, but he seems to have regressed. We've just had a baby a month ago and I know he's not getting the attention he used to,a nd I try to play games, do workbooks etc while I nurse, but it's not the same. Could this be a result of this, since the belligerent behavior has amplified dramamtically since her arrival (tho he's loving towards her), and regardless, what can I do to nip this in the bud?

Sorry for the long sloppily typed post. My dd has just finished nursing and this position isn't conducive to typing...

Thanks for any advice.

Siouxbee


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siouxbee*
lately when I tell him something he doesn't want to hear (stop doing this or that, please apologize to daddy for talking to him like that, etc) he will either make a gun out of his fingers and shoot me or if I'm physically restraiing him in some way (picking him up to stop him from running away while I have a serious chat with him) he will pull my hair, hit me, etc. I go through the usual please don't do that that hurts routine, but he seems to have regressed.

We've just had a baby a month ago and I know he's not getting the attention he used to, and I try to play games, do workbooks etc while I nurse, but it's not the same. Could this be a result of this, since the belligerent behavior has amplified dramamtically since her arrival

You might want to try, the next time he shoots you with his finger, to dramatically and comically fall down to the floor, moaning and groaning, making it very funny. After he has a laugh, and you do too, continue the conversation. This would let him safely play out his desire for power (by pretend shooting you) rather than having him play it out in real life by biting or hitting. Once he's been able to play out that desire for power, he may be more inclined to listen, as well, to how daddy feels hurt when he calls him poopface (or whatever...)

YES, it sounds like the new baby has a lot to do with this! Do you have a set amount of time set aside each day to play with him, allowing him to choose exaclty how you spend your time together?


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
Bias aside, I feel uncomfortable when someone tells me to "relax" and "ease up" regarding my parenting concerns.



Amen! Regardless that this person is a troll ( and btw how do you figure that out?) I feel exactly the same way you do about ppl telling me to ease up or relax. I feel that I have the right to raise my kids any way I feel ( obviously if I were abusing them that would be different) and I HATE when ppl tell me to relax. If I am over protective that is my perogative.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Stephanie, I totally get where you're coming from and it's been nice to have gotten some perspective and relief from my initial fright at seeing DS act aggressive. My first instinct is always to shield from violence of any kind, but DS himself has taught me that the more I try to "shut down" behaviors in him, the more I tend to perpetuate them. I've learned I need to allow him to explore them in order for HIM to put them in perspective and that's helped ME keep it in perspective. I loved Mocha09's advice btw--right out of Playful Parenting... creating a funny (downright giggly) kid in relation to the violent play can be an extremely useful tool. Cohen talks often of "following the giggles" and also of turning in particalar, "gun play" into the Love Gun game: DS "shoots you" and you say something like, "Oh, you've just shot me with the love gun. For that, you will get one kiss. And another and another for each shot. If the DC continues to say NO, it's NOT a love gun. You can reply "well maybe it's not _supposed_ to be, but it's making me love you even more with every shot." Acting overly dramatic and silly (using funny voices, etc) can really help to put things over the top and draw the play into something use for kid and parent.

In my own life, I've found that the more I've tried to avoid things that make me uncomfortable, the more power these things seemed to have over me. I think kids have an excellent sense of what they need to do in order to work through strong/negative situations, and violent play can be a part of that. But it's equally important that we accept this need in them and be there as support and well, to keep the perspective so to speak.

I hope this makes some kind of sense!


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## sparrow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
.

In my own life, I've found that the more I've tried to avoid things that make me uncomfortable, the more power these things seemed to have over me.

well said. i have also found this to be true. thanks for pointing it out in this situation







i think that remembering that will be key in handling some of ds' games that i feel uncomfortable with.....


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I just wanted to jump in as a mom of a girl who engages in this kind of play. I'm pretty sure she's picking it up from her friends at preschool (who are *all* boys!) She made a "shooter" out of tinkertoys the other day and told me that it was for shooting the bad guys. I was uncomfortable, but instinctively did not want to criticize her imaginative play. So I asked her what a bad guy was. She looked at me like I was a moron and said, "someone who does really REALLY bad things!" Clearly she is in the midst of the good/evil phase someone mentioned! She doesn't often act out violence -- she just *talks* about shooting or getting the bad guys a lot (there's where being a "girl" comes in!







:LOL ) She also occasionally encourages her little brother to play superheroes with her. I have to admit that while I'm uncomfortable with the violent talk, I love seeing her be a superhero!







I think it's great for her to sense her own power so vividly, especially being a girl. She's already gotten some rejection from a few of the boys at preschool for being a girl -- "only boys can play with this rocket airplane" type of stuff.







I'm happy to say that she will sometimes stick up for herself, or one of her other (boy) friends will refute the statement and invite her to keep playing with them. (They really are a nice bunch of kids overall!) But I'm getting a bit OT!

Reading this thread has been very helpful to me. I have a ds comming up behind her, so I'm sure I'm in for more of the same!







I think I feel comfortable with our ban on guns in the house, but I'm becoming less inclined to object to pretend violence when it is directed at imaginary "bad guys". I'll have to think it through a bit more and come up with a comprehensive "policy" so that I can be consistant.


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## Tales from the Dad (May 24, 2004)

my son has begun picking up every stick that's vaguely gun-shaped to shoot bad monsters with too. I don't play it with him, but I only take away the guns if he points them at real people. Same rule with toy bow and arrows.

I do play toy sword with him to fight off bad monsters, but now that I think about it, it's always monsters not bad people; so hopefully that means I'm not encouraging real-life violence.

and of course the swords are not allowed to touch real people.


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## galadriel (Jan 21, 2003)

This is really interesting, Pam. Um, I think I've actually engaged in this shooting play with him before (being the one who was shot), and I'm sorry if I was encouraging something that made you uncomfortable!

I loved --_loved_ --swordfighting







: and wrestling and playing squirtguns and waterbombs and all that stuff with my brother when I was growing up, and, as play, I _still_ think it's kinda fun. But I can't find anyone to play with me now that I'm old.









I don't think playing Zelda with him is teaching him that violence is okay or anything; I think he is just growing his imagination. I think violence is something that is inherently in our nature, as a more or less obsolete survival tool, and maybe that actually is something that is more prevalent in boys, for what used to be a good reason. I think the impulse can certainly be overcome, but perhaps it helps if it has first been explored in a safe way (i.e., play), and therefore understood?

I honor the voice of your inner hippie; I didn't know she was in there!









Love,
Melissa


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Thanks Meliss







My inner hippie sees and honors your inner hippie.
Na-hippie-maste


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

We don't allow guns, but we do have swords of many types. Dh and I each have a sword too, real ones. He have taught the kids how to duel, and they have rules. They can hit each others swords, or tap each other below the neck. If they break the rules, the swords go away. We view it as a creative release of inborn aggression.


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## hazeldust (Mar 9, 2002)

ididnt read all of the posts, so forgive me if someone already posted this...
in John Holts Teach Your Own, there was a passage about gun play. it was basically about how gun play is about being present, two kids run around "shooting" each other. whoever is not as present, gets hit and fall down, "dies". when they are ready they are "born again" they get up and the contest begins all over again. only very free spirited children can play a good game of guns and the game usually goes sour when a child who is not as free spirited (and therefore doesnt reallyknow how to play well) ends it with real(though usually mild) violence. it was written by a parent(a mother) who contributed this essay to his book. she says, you are not encouraging violence by encouraging gun play, nor are you preventing it by preventing gun play. i hope this makes sense, it was interesting and made me think about things in a different way.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I haven't been really involved in this thread, but have been reading it faithfully as it develops and just want to thank you all for sharing so openly here. This violent play thing has been a huge hurdle for me. It seems so important to ds and I have a *mountainous* mental block against it.

The past week or so, though, I've decided to get off it - lighten up about it. And I'm finding that our interactions are so much less stressful. I'm going to trust that he's working out what he needs to work out, learning what he needs to learn, and that the fact that he is loved and accepted and shown compassion will ensure he grows into a healthy young man.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

in John Holts Teach Your Own, there was a passage about gun play. it was basically about how gun play is about being present, two kids run around "shooting" each other. whoever is not as present, gets hit and fall down, "dies". when they are ready they are "born again" they get up and the contest begins all over again. only very free spirited children can play a good game of guns and the game usually goes sour when a child who is not as free spirited (and therefore doesnt reallyknow how to play well) ends it with real(though usually mild) violence. it was written by a parent(a mother) who contributed this essay to his book. she says, you are not encouraging violence by encouraging gun play, nor are you preventing it by preventing gun play. i hope this makes sense, it was interesting and made me think about things in a different way.
I read that essay too, Hazeldust. It's definately very interesting food for thought. I've thought about this subject from a "natural parenting" perspective as well. To me, it seems that pretend violence (good guy/bad guy stuff) is quite "natural" for many children (especially for boys?) as evidenced on this thread, where children from non-violent, media sheltered homes remain very interested in this type of play. While I don't like seeing my child pretend to shoot a gun, I'm hesitant to prohibit a type of play that probably has an important purpose, given that it is so universal. I think re-directing the play to other kind of weapons (as some posters say they do) is fine, and perhaps even a good idea in our gun-obsessed culture, but really, the gun hang-up is ours. After all, a sword or magic wand accomplishes the same result in the child's mind. We trust our children's instincts in most areas of play -- why not this one? Just more thoughts -- I don't really know what the right answer is here.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Ok, here's something I've been kicking around.

Suppose that this whole good/evil paradigm is a social construct... fed into by our stories, language, religious backgrounds, culture in general. I don't fundamentally believe in this black and white good vs. evil construct. I believe people are basically good and "evil" is what we call people whose perspective we define as "other." What is a "bad guy"??? Is shooting the "bad guy" ok because he is BAD? (Reminds me of a funny line from Arnold in some movie... his wife finds out he's been an undercover agent for many years unbeknownst to her. She is appalled and can't believe he's killed people. He replies, "But they were all BAD!!")

So when my kid is shooting bad guys, I always feel compelled to talk about _the bad guy's mommy_ and how she must feel. To introduce the idea that much of it is a grey area and not so black and white... there are other points of view out there. Empathy? NVC? Alternative paradigms?

If this is a social construct, is it something we can hope to change over time, viva la revolution and all that? Or is it something truly inborn?

Not sure I'm expressing this well, because I am procrastinating cleaning my house.







: Off to do that!


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