# What's your oponion on this potential emotionally charged topic?



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

This happened in a city near my home. Just days ago.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Calgar...09/621134.html

The news reported tonight that the grandmother (the young girl's mother) has filed for custody of the baby who BTW is fine. He has suffered mild hypothermia, and is now in the custody of social services. However, the mother and grandmother of the baby have been to visit the little boy. Social services has said that in all possibility they prefer the birth parent/s to gain custody.In this situation the grandmother would probably have_legal_ custody but the mother, if proven mentally capable would be the child's primary caretaker.

The police are stiill unsure if any charges will be laid on the mother.

My feelings on this are all over the place. What's your take?

I do know one thing for sure, it sure raises ALOT of emotion!


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Well, I've got some personal reasons on this one, which I can't really talk about here. But I've been closer to this than I'd like to have been.

I would really be happy if a good analysis could be done to determine if she is mentally disturbed teen who is on her way to being a disturbed adult, or if she is just suffering from an above average amount of distress from being pregnant and a teen. I'm not sure if that can happen, but that would be my wish, to tell if she is the type to spend her whole life making decisions that make everyone say "HUH? WHY?" or if this is a one-time really bad decision.

I would hope she is only charged if the child suffered harm, not because the child may have suffered.

I hope the baby and mother recover fully and quickly.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Even if she got pregnant having consensual sex, has a good and non-abusive home environment, is generally emotionally and mentally healthy (NONE of which we can take for granted)I nonetheless think that at 15 she is not an adult and should not be treated like one. (I know 15 year olds who are still afraid to sleep by themselves in the dark! They are still kids.) She needs help and support, not punishment. It doesn't benefit anyone to punish her.

It's hard to make further judgements without detailed information about her situation. She's got my prayers for assistance and compassion.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

I think there are to many excuses for bad behaviour in this country. What is wrong with people that are will to excuse someone for throwing a precious little baby in the garabage.


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Ahhh, compassionate conservatism on display again. I feel warm all over.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Sorry, if compassion for a precious child is an offense to you.


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

SQ, you don't know a darn thing about this other than what you read in that newspaper article...what makes you think you are qualified or justified in passing judgment on the situation? Really?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Sorry, guys, I'm with SQ on this one.

Why do people who hurt children given a different standard from those who hurt other people in our society?

If you wrapped someone naked in duct tape and threw him in the trash (wet for the argument) in 10C degree weather and left him for dead and got caught what would happen to your legal tuschie??

Yes, we need to have compassion for the girl and her family but people cannot literally throw people in the trash when they get in the way.

Debra Baker


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I suppose I'm the type to be willing to listen to excuses from this young girl who had the child ~ I really do feel for her. I don't know if I would like to see the child in the care of the bio family though.

Even though these stories come out often enough, I just find them so unbelievable. No wonder there were so many calls for adoption...sweet baby.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks DB.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

At the very least we need to understand the mental working of these teenagers because these stories happen with depressing regularity.

Here (in PA and surrounding states) you can surrender a newborn to the hospital or police/fire house with no questions asked.

I cannot imagine being so overwhelmed with life that I didn't notice my 15yo daughter was *pregnant*. I feel for this family but what is wrong with so many of these teenaged girls that tossing a newborn in the trash like a used tampon is their option. I think we need to learn why these girls think this way.

db


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, my initial reaction is that I'm grateful that the baby was found and is OK.

Based on what I read, I don't think that the bio family should have custody. If g'ma is working so much that the 15-yo is caring for the younger siblings, I don't think it'd be a good situation for a baby. Especially a baby who was thrown away by that same 15-yo.

I hope they find that babe a stable and loving home.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I was just thinking about this...that story is sticking with me right now. Not to excuse the action against the baby, I feel I may understand this a little -- remembering the birth of my child.

I remember the fresh moments there ~ when she was in this world but still part of me. She didn't seem human to me. Perhaps, alone in this unwanted situation, it's not such a stretch for these girls.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I don't she should be charged, how can you hold a 15 year old girl responsible for soemthing she did in affect? Think of the impact of an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy on a grown up woman and then place this on the teenager.

What she needs is help, not punishment.She is not a criminal.

TC,


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I feel for this family but what is wrong with so many of these teenaged girls that tossing a newborn in the trash like a used tampon is their option. I think we need to learn why these girls think this way.

db

I ask myself what is wrong with the family that the girl doesn't have the trust to talk to her parents.

And how does it help if she can bring the baby to a hospital....she is 15, how is she supposed to get there...and get there unnoticed?This one little obstacle might be too much for...not only for a teenager.Think about it.

I do hope though that the baby will not placed in the girl's family.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
Well, my initial reaction is that I'm grateful that the baby was found and is OK.

Based on what I read, I don't think that the bio family should have custody. If g'ma is working so much that the 15-yo is caring for the younger siblings, I don't think it'd be a good situation for a baby. Especially a baby who was thrown away by that same 15-yo.

I hope they find that babe a stable and loving home.

agree,agree,agree.!


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

I would like to see the baby adopted by another family.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I do not think the baby should go with the birth family. Honestly, in perfect world, the 15, 12 & 3 year old wouldn't be there either. Well, I guess in a truly perfect world their mohter would be there to care for them instead of the 15 year old being forced into an adult role.

I do think there should be repurcussions for the mother. What she did *could* easily have been murder, and 15, IMO, is old enough to understand that. I mean, if she couldn't get to the hospital, you wrap the baby in a blanket & call 911 before leaving them on the doorstep, kwim? I do not feel that jail is appropriate, but she does need counseling and HELP--- she got pg (at 14? 15?) carried a baby secretly, delivered said baby & thought nothing would change?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Just wanted to add...

I think that the "father" should be found and if he is 18+ should be tried for statutory rape.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

Sorry, if compassion for a precious child is an offense to you.
What about compassion for the mother, a 15 yo child herself?

It's sad that people want to have it both ways- they want children to be treated like children, and then they want them to act like adults.

The reality is, there are ADULTS that do not know about the safe drp offs for babies.

I assume this girl didn't get prenatal care. No one but maybe a friend or two knew she was pregnant. How is she supposed to know about the safe drop offs? How commone do you think this knowledge is among teens, when it isn't common knowledge among adults?

As for the family, and her not feeling safe confiding in them- Do you read the stories posted by teen moms about how their parents react? Even the most supportive parents often go, for lack of a better word, apeshit, when confronted with their son or daughter announcing the news that they are expecting. I don't know ANYONE who was a teen parent who's parents didn't react REALLY poorly! There is excessive pressure to abort or adopt, the parents drag in doctors and pastors- in one case I know, the mom was having an affair with the OB who was attending her daughter's pregnancy. At 30, and 3 kids later, this woman is CONVINCED that her mother asked the OB to abort the fetus. She had an internal exam, there was a moment of extreme pain, and soon after, she began bleeding and lost the baby. She was 17!

And finally, what if this 15 yo is suffering from PPD? Or just physically overwhelmed by the hormones fluxes after birth?

I do NOT see this as cut and dry!

I am glad for the mom and the baby that the baby is okay, and I hope the entire family- grandmother, 15 yo, younger kids, and 15 yo's baby, get help. And not "help" where someone forces them to live a certain way, and be a certain way, but real assistance in meeting their needs and goals as well as possible!!!


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
At the very least we need to understand the mental working of these teenagers because these stories happen with depressing regularity.

Instead of simply condemning them? I wholeheartedly agree. The girl needs help, in many ways, including help in facing the consequences of her actions. The family needs help. Not judgment, not incarceration. Help. She's only a child herself and it's a bit early to write her off.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

You are right, these things are happening far too much. In another city judt 3 hrs away from where this incident occured, a baby died by the hands of his 17 y.o. mother who gave birth in her home. This just months ago.

I think the real big thing here is, how can WE as parents help our teenaged children to ensure this (being scared to tell you) does not ever happen? I will be the first to admit it scares to livin daylights out of me. I have twin daughters and even though I plan on and am working very hard to have a close open honest relationship with them, it still could happen. If it did how would I react?
Well, I actually try to run situations like this through my head, and I take note from other ppl's stories and if I find something that I think is helpful, I write it down so I don't for get. For a small eg: I plan on making it a RULE without exception to be one on one with my children at least once a week, and also a family as a whole. I know what life is like as our children grow. They get lives of thier own and families can do a few days without even seeing each other even though they live in the very same house. Just little things like this can help keep families in the know even a little bit. Anyways these are just my thoughts on trying to help my own family.
As far as the young girl and her son, I feel so very deeply for them all. I really want what's best for them, but the sick feeling I get in my stomache is if she does get custody, can she be trusted again? Even with help?

I do think it's a good sign that she is visiting her child.
It's amazing to me to think that what her parent's thought of her has such a HUGE impact on her that she was willing to let her own son die for sake of it. I think the message it sends here is how much of a POWERFUL influence we really are to our own children. LOVE THEM UNCONDITIONALLY FOREVER.

Peace mamas and papas


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I think there's still a clause in Canadian criminal law that allows a mother of a newborn "permission" to kill her baby if she's "not of sound mind."

Sick and sad, I know, but it has to do with post partum depression and back in the "old days" when babies died at birth or soon after for "no good reason" and no one wanted to charge mom with homicide.

I too think that all the kids should be removed from gma. 15yo should be put in a "home for unwed teenaged mothers" and given the chance to be a mother in more than just birth. But really, she probably doesn't have the wisdom to understand what she did so the baby should be adopted out.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

And how does it help if she can bring the baby to a hospital....she is 15, how is she supposed to get there...and get there unnoticed?This one little obstacle might be too much for...not only for a teenager.Think about it.
Why does she have to get there unnoticed? With the safe haven laws, you don't have to secretly drop the baby off, you just have to drop it off. She could have called a cab, taken the bus, asked a friend to drive her, left the baby somewhere and anonymously called the police or social services, left the baby on a doorstep like in the movies... the list goes on.

And please people, stop using her age to excuse what she did. I got pregnant at 15, had my ds at 16, and never once thought about tossing him in the trash. This is not a normal teen parent thing to do.

I think that a big part of the problem here is not only the social stigma that is still around being a young parent, but the whole attitude of treating teens like young children. They may be kids to their parents and the adults that are around them, but the truth is that a lot of teens (especially if treated as such) don't have any problem being adults. In fact, a lot of them are sick and tired of being pushed back into the little kid role. A 16 or 17 year old, instead od wasting their time sitting in a public school classroom, if given the chance can hold down a job, go to college... do anything that a 18, 19 or 20 year old can do.

Escaping Childhood by John Holt is a good book that touches on society forcing teens into an extended childhood. (Though I don't agree with everything he says in it)


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

I was on assignment, working on a redesign for an organization in south florida... this organization works with family violence cases & solutions. Anyway, during the job I had to read what felt like books upon books of family cases & many were surrounding young mothers who were running from abuse at home or in their new relationships... so sad.

One in particular was a girl stuck in my heart, she had done this same thing, but had left the babe by a canal near their "home" (this one was found dead). Turned out that the stepdad had raped this 14 yr old CHILD, got her pregnant & was verbally & physically abusive to the other kids in the family as well.

The girl ended up saying that she was "strong enough" to take the abuse given by the stepdad, but didn't want her poor baby to suffer, so she sent him to be with god. I mean omg, she's just soo lost!! Poor girl!

Hard to have imagined a situation where the "murderer" was trying to do what her young mind though was best. Tears your heart out... I'm happy for this girl b'c luckily she was taken out of that family & placed into foster care (although many foster situations aren't much better I've read). Guaranteed she'll have a rough life anyway, but at least she got away from that family.

Sorry if this is unclear, thinking about that girl again is just so heartbreaking. Just please try compassion before judgement. Actually, it's not up to any of us to try judgement, ever... everyone's lives & situations are just way too different from one another.


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

Goodness, I feel for her.

I understand why she felt she couldn't go to her mother, a working mom with 3 kids and she probably felt like she'd just be putting more pressure on her. She's only 15, so she can't get a decent paying job and she would've felt like all she was doing was saying "here mom, take care of my baby on top of everything else you have to do." I was a pregnant teenager, it's not easy.

You can't know how she feels or what she went through until you've walked in her shoes. It's always easier to just condemn these girls after the fact, and never look below the surface of the story. That's always going to do more harm than good. What society needs to do is HELP these girls so this stuff doesn't HAPPEN in the first place. But instead, our president implements abstinence-only sex education, forgetting that EVERYBODY makes mistakes, takes away any place these girls could go to get help when they do make mistakes, and condemns them for it.


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## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Yes, I feel for her. It's awful that she couldn't go to her mother, that her mother obviously wan't giving her kids the attention they needed, and I'm sure she was scared. But in my opinion, it still doesn't excuse what she did. I agree with phathui5. She couldn't have called someone to let them know where the baby was? She couldn't drop the baby off somewhere and leave? At the age of 15 I knew the difference between right and wrong and there is no way I could've left my baby to die. Too many times I hear that people don't give teenagers enough credit and then at the same time we are willing to still see them as young children, which they no longer are. Yes, they aren't adults, but they aren't babies either.
I do feel awful for this girl, but I feel worse for the baby and what could've happened.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

abstinence only education doesn't work when the girl is raped....

and she might have been scared to tell her mother because of the unstable relationship between the two of them. There was no way I could tell my mother that a jerk attempted a date rape at 15, or that I was date raped at 17 (I was told flat out to give it up NOW or get dumped in the middle of nowhere). My doctor was pretty sure I miscarried in November of that school year - about 2-3 months along. And I hemoraged for 35 days too.

Could I tell my mother that? No frelling way. I would have gotten my butt kicked if I had.


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

Goodness, this is a hard one isn't it?

The mother in my wants to protect the baby and have the mother pay for what she did but at the same time I want to help this poor 15 yr old girl as well. I don't know....I think maybe if the baby is alright, they shouldn't press charges. As far as custody goes....I don't think this girl should have custody...she is obviously not capable of making a sound decision at this point and think the baby needs to go to a loving family who is.

What a sad, unfortunate incident for everyone.







I am so glad that the baby seems to be ok.

ETA: I forgot the 'e' in the word 'one' in the first sentence.







...it took on a whole new meaning! :LOL


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## cat_astrophe (Sep 22, 2003)

This story ended better than so many because the baby survived. This is happening all too often these days, and I believe that it has a lot to do with the fact that the line between right and wrong has been blurred. At 15, I knew right from wrong, and I knew that a baby was not garbage. I don't think it is expecting too much of a 15 year old to know that. It is wonderful to feel compassion for her, but she still deserves to be punished for her actions. As has been pointed out, there were plenty of options open to this girl/woman, yet she chose to throw her baby out with the trash. JMHO.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I wouldn't necessarily assume that her age was the biggest factor other than the fact that being a teen is often what puts these people into these situations.

Being completely alone during labor and delivery with no support during pregnancy, perhaps not wanting to be pregnant or be a mother combined with denial and the whole host of other things...and there's that factor that I mentioned ~ the fact that this child came out of her body and she acted during this very surreal time just after the birth.

Perhaps giving birth the first time was different for all of you but I remember that time as very, very strange. I had an unmediated birth but I was completely altered ~ almost out of body.

I, personally, had a very strong protective feeling for my child but my friends have had a variety of reactions to their babies ranging from love at first sight to apathy ~ to probably much worse but discussing this is so taboo.

The big difference is that we all had plans for our pregnancies and people around us (probably) and hopefully some support.

I had a Child Development teacher with a theory about labor pain, which I agree with. She thinks it's intense like it tends to be so we draw people to us during labor so that we have support around us when our child comes into this world.


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

Someone said not to judge untill you have walked in her shoes, well I have. I was 16 when I got pg. Telling my mom was prob the hardest thing I have ever done. Yes I do completly understand where she is comming from, but putting a baby in the trash is not an option. You have to do the right thing sometimes, no matter how much you do not want to, no matter how scared you are, you just have to. This was one of those times. If this girl was sane at all, she had to know that what she was doing was wrong. She had a choice to make, she made the wrong one, and I honestly believe that she should suffer some kind of punishment for it.
I think that because I have been in their shoes, I have less tolerence for this many people. It is a really hard choice to make, and yet there is no choice because to do anything less than to make sure the baby is safe is wrong.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Whether or not anyone here as been in this person's shoes is a not a an easy call, wouldn't you say? Same age does not a same situation make.

I maintain that being completely alone for birth is a huge factor...does anyone even know anyone who has done this (UA birth by choice is a different situation, IMO)?


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

I think that what happened started a long time ago. Everyday that she kept that secret, she was making a choice. I see so many time when she could have made a different choice, when she got pregnant, anytime during the pregnancy, when labor started, after the baby was born, when she placed the baby in there. No matter her circumstance, she had a choice to make. I guess that is my argument, that no matter what, she had a choice. I feel terrible that she made the wrong the one. All the sympathy in the world cannot change that and sometimes we have to pay the bad choices we make.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Fine, I agree...I just don't think anyone here can say 'they've walked a mile' when they only wear the same size.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Some of these girls, though, feel as if they ARE making the best choice... maybe some are deliberately cruel people & acted out of pure selfishness... but many are simply unable to make "wise" choices due to lack of stability, trust, love, etc within their own upbrining. If a girl was brought up being told that she's unworthy, trash, nothing, a bad person... how on Earth would anyone expect her to suddenly find this big ball of compassion & trust within herself to go figure out "the right way" to handle such a huge thing. To her, no one has shown her anything but wrong her whole life.

Maybe if someone is feeling like she "should have just told someone", they'd benefit by spending time with these pregnant & confused teens. Find them on the street & pass them a flier with a pg crisis hotline #... or teen shelter info, volunteer as a counselor (classes/training is nec though)

It's a WHOLE 'nother perspective that many of these girls have regarding life. It's a hard thing to do - to volunteer for these girls - but I tell ya, after reading about case after case that have absolutely NO rhyme or reason, life takes on a new meaning. As humans, we do the best we know how to do by nature, these girls know no better majority of the time.

Most of the time no one has been there for them, so they are used to handling things themselves, from making canned corn & toast for themselves for dinner every night(!) possibly for all the kids in their family, to dealing with an unwanted pregnancy... they're on their own, most of them.

I agree with some sort of "punishment" in the sense of helping them to realize that a better choice existed... possibly working with other pregnant teens(??) & most definitely couseling for several years, not just a few half-hour sessions. Maybe a parenting class to either steer them from actively getting pg or to help prepare them if they do get pg?? I don't agree with jailtime at all, would do no good in 99% of the cases like this.

(hopefully this won't come off as pushy, not my intention... as the OP asked for everyone's opinion)


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

I do see what you are saying number572, but do you really and truly think she thought that it was for the best to put the baby in the trash? I believe that because she was probly so scared for anyone to find out that she was pregnant, the first thing that came to her mind was to get rid of the baby. I don't believe that she really ment for him to die, just the most important thing was for no one to find out. I know that for several months that was how it was for me. I told no one untill I was just about 6 months, and in that time I got no pre-natal care, which could have been a reason why my son Chris was born at 7 1/2 months.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

i dont condemm her..dont think she should be punished..but she sure as hell shouldnt get to keep the baby..she put it in the trash for godness sakes!!! there are many other things she could have done...that baby will probably be abused or neglected all its life if it stays with her---and before anyone tells me this is not so, tell me your story about how once you threw your baby in the trash in freezing weather then had a change of heart and are a great parent....
to me she forfieted that baby.....
JMO though


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

What if the mom went to parenting classes? Or had increasing supervised, and eventually unsupervised visits? What if she was placed in a foster home (with baby), or a home for teen moms? Are you saying she unequivocally does NOT deserve a second chance?

Would you feel the same if she were older?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

For myself, it is not so much that she doesn't deserve a second chance to be a mother, but that she deserves a first chance to be a child.

She obviously is *not* emotionally where she needs to be to be a fully functioning adult in a few years and I think it would be more helpful to her to let her heal, get her help, etc... than hampering her with a baby she did not want until (probably) told she should by others. kwim?


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## cat_astrophe (Sep 22, 2003)

Once you start making adult decisions, you'd better be prepared to accept adult consequences, PERIOD. This girl made a lot of choices, all of them BAD. The article doesn't mention rape, so I assume that she chose to have sex, she chose to hide her pregnancy from everyone, she chose to give birth in secret, then she chose to dump her newborn baby with the trash. It says that the baby was out there in the cold for two hours, that gave her ample opportunity to change her mind and retrieve the baby. She chose not to. Yes, she needs help, and a certain amount of compassion, but there are actions in this world that are absolute WRONGS, and this, most definitely, is one of them. She needs to learn to accept responsibility for her own actions, and accepting the consequences is a good first step. JMHO.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

The mother in me feels for the baby who was birthed and the baby who birthed him.

I did drugs, stole a car, and even worse at age 15. I wasn't making adult decisions, I was making childish, hurting and in pain decisions. I'm so glad someone had compassion with me and helped me get the help I needed instead of writing me off as an awful person. Now I am a very socially "normal" person who isn't a risk to myself or others.

I hope this baby finds the best possible family to grow with, and I hope this mother gets a chance to heal and grow. I hope the experts involved are more qualified to determine what the best route is for that than I am.

As far as this happening to much... I think the key is education and acceptance. If children weren't so in fear of physical harm, and condemnation from their family for being "dirty" and having sex than maybe they wouldn't go to such drastic measures to cover it up. My dad started calling me a whore in first grade and viewing me as a slut. I sure as hell wouldn't have come to him to tell him I was pregnant if I had been as a teen. As it was I never told him when I was pregnant at 17 resulting from rape (and I had been a virgin until that point) and I felt nothing but relief when I miscarried. Not even a tear. As a married adult I had 7 more miscarriages and I wasn't at all emotionally detached from those pregnancies- only the one that happened as I was a child in a bad situation. What if I hadn't miscarried? I problably would have left and never came back- but not all kids are me.

My kids will be well educated about how to know their cycle, how to prevent pregnancy, and they will know that while I hope they choose to wait until they are truly ready to parent- I will never condemn them for any choice (poor or good) that they make. They will know they are loved unconditionally (as I hope any AP child knows) and I think that one simple thing would stop this from occuring.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Oops, got her case confused for a second with the one where the babe died. So in addition to my last thoughts, i feel this baby would be best served by being placed for adoption. I also feel that the whole family could be helped by much much one on one & family counseling & the girl's mother also needs some real help apparently. I don't know if i think the kids would do better (at this age) by being introduced into foster care if they're not being properly cared for either... so sad all around.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

One thing that is bothering me is that we are making assumptions about how this 15yo felt. Perhaps she really DID want her baby. I think that people make some really GOD awful decisions, and sabotage themselves for a hundred reasons- they are in pain, they are afraid, they are overwhelmed. The reality is, she didn't abort. She didn't kill the child at birth. I doubt that she knew about safe harbor surrendor. Edited to add: the other thing I don't think we know, that is important, is how much traffic the area where she left the baby gets. Maybe you don't think it's important, but I do. Hell, maybe she even intended to leave the baby someplace better, but got spooked by something. WE REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH HER MIND, and I refuse to roast this girl based on what I would have done, or what I think she SHOULD have done. I have NO idea what she knew, what she didn't know, and what resources were available to her. If this 15 yo really DID want her child, I think the devastation wrought on her by denying her a second chance, would be tremendous. I do worry about what might happen to the baby due to another poor judgement by the girl, and that is why I don't think it should just be hand the baby back, and send the 15 yo on her way.

Apparantly, it must be a MASSIVE character flaw on my part, but I think people should be given help to reach their goals, and a chance to redeem themselves, and correct mistakes. And it is NOT as if this girl has a history of doing this!

And if she really didn't want the baby, this girl still needs help, not jail time. Jail is BAD. It is a place where a 15yo girl could easily be battered and victimized, and I don't see that being conducive to growth.


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

Breathless:


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I don't think she should go to jail for it, but she needs to go through some extensive couseling. Yes, she is 15 and we don't the whole circumstances surrounding the event but she is 15-old enough to know that you don't throw a baby in the trash can!!


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## mgmsmommy (Jun 24, 2003)

see I think that our society has become so disposable in nature that some people are growing up to think nit is ok to throw even babies away, which is very sad indeed


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Why does she have to get there unnoticed? With the safe haven laws, you don't have to secretly drop the baby off, you just have to drop it off. She could have called a cab, taken the bus, asked a friend to drive her, left the baby somewhere and anonymously called the police or social services, left the baby on a doorstep like in the movies... the list goes on.

And please people, stop using her age to excuse what she did. I got pregnant at 15, had my ds at 16, and never once thought about tossing him in the trash. This is not a normal teen parent thing to do.

I think that a big part of the problem here is not only the social stigma that is still around being a young parent, but the whole attitude of treating teens like young children. They may be kids to their parents and the adults that are around them, but the truth is that a lot of teens (especially if treated as such) don't have any problem being adults. In fact, a lot of them are sick and tired of being pushed back into the little kid role. A 16 or 17 year old, instead od wasting their time sitting in a public school classroom, if given the chance can hold down a job, go to college... do anything that a 18, 19 or 20 year old can do.

Escaping Childhood by John Holt is a good book that touches on society forcing teens into an extended childhood. (Though I don't agree with everything he says in it)

Ditto. I was pregnant at 16 and never thought of throwing my precious baby away!







And I didn't have a loving, supportive family- they disowned me (have since made up) and I was all alone living with friends.....no money, nothing. I figured out how to get welfare and medicaid and survive.

I sincerely hope that baby goes to an adoptive family.

I do hope that the mom gets help and counseling.

kristi


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm trying to find something new to this story. So far I have only found this....Not new but has some info on her feelings.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Winnip...pf-628435.html


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Found this.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Calgar...13/627360.html


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

And this... In no particular order. I just want be sure you get all the informtion. I dont watch the news much, for these reasons so the dates may be a bit old.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Calgar...09/621134.html


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

A tiny bit of info about the father of the baby.
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Calgar...10/622677.html


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## Ary99 (Jan 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cat_astrophe*
At 15, I knew right from wrong, and I knew that a baby was not garbage. I don't think it is expecting too much of a 15 year old to know that. It is wonderful to feel compassion for her, but she still deserves to be punished for her actions. .

I think this is the essence of the argument in a nut shell.

Several religious faiths designate specific ages as "The Age of Reason" (Judiasm and Catholicism, for example). The age of reason is the age at which a child can discern the difference between right and wrong. Both traditions in this case have determined that by age seven, people know right from wrong.

I'm not sure why there is such an increase in these cases, but I consider the fact that so many teens seem to suffer some kind of arrested emotional development. Emotionally we have young adults operating like six years olds. Why?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

because we(society) force them into lengthened childhoods where instead of responsibilites, they are coddled and treated like children who can't do anything.

100 years ago, school past grade 3 was rare but possible. 200 years ago, being schooled at all was rarer still. By the time you were 12, you were apprenticed into a trade and learned everything you needed to know to work in that trade. You were treated like an adult by age 7. As soon as boys were "breeched" (put into pants) they were expected to act like adults. Girls had to start on their "hope chests" to prove they were educated enough to run a house and home. Those that weren't of the upper classes also ended up in trades. By the time a child of a servant was 7, they were fully incorporated into the trade of their parents, helping to run the household.

This extended childhood for almost 20 years where the child can just about get away with anything imo does more damage to their psyche than it helps. A 15 year old should be able to care for her own child or even get married. But because society expects teens to still be "just kids" she has acted and reacted like one.

Im severely generalizing in my previous paragraphs, but it is true.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

couldn't her actions have a lot to do with how confused we have made teens' lives?

you can be tried as an adult, but not drink alchol or vote

you should not have sex, but here, we'll bombard you with arse loads of sexual advertising, images and sexy role models

teen mothers are stigmatized in an effort to get other teens not to become mothers "too soon," but if they do become mothers then they instantly are expected to grow up and be adult

And, I'll be totally honest, I did not fall in love with my babies right away. I was shocked, confused and totally unprepared for motherhood in many ways (I was 25, married, with a huge support network). I can absolutely say that i can see how being pregnant alone, giving birth alone, with all the hormonal issues that accompany birth, could lead to that choice.

She needs counselling. I think taking this baby away from her would be criminal. We are way too punitive.
kaly


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:

The teen said: "I love my mom very much, but everybody has their own problems and I didn't want people to worry about my little problems."
this comment right here really irks me. Having a baby in secret and throwing him away is NOT a little problem. It's so sad that the girl felt that her mom could not handle knowing that she was pregnant, and it seems like if she thought he was a little problem then it was ok to put him in a garbage bag and sit him outside.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

breathless-
i dont care how old she is, makes no difference to me-if she is old enough to procreate she is old enough to not throw away her baby!
i had a baby at 18 ,and one of the best mommies i know had one at 15, age does not matter-

heres a question for all of you who think she should get back her baby-
if i beat my kid- like bad-like all the articles people bring up on here- should i get my kid back?

lets say i am really remorsful, that society set me up for it, that i was just too young...what would you be saying then?
because see..that baby is LUCKY TO BE ALIVE...she almost killed it- not accidentaly either... just like someone dosnt ACCIDENTALY beat thier child half to death...im sure she is remorsefull---but this has nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with PROTECTION....one time of almost intentionally killing your child and its time to find a new home for that child....seriously!


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## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Liz, I completely agree!


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Does Canada have the safe haven laws?

And just because I feel the need to say it- how does suddenly putting a boy in pants and expecting them to be adults AT ALL mesh with AP ideals? Or expecting that young women can or should be married and having kids as teens because they are technically capable? History shows me more mistakes than positives. We learn from our history, and the idea that we should go back to expecting our children to be mini adults repulses me. Guess what? This totally happened 100 years ago to. It isn't new. Hasn't it been pretty much statistically proven that unmarried teen pregnacy rate has actually gone down over the years?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

i don't know about safe haven laws, but back when I was 13, my mother took in a 16 yo with a 3mo son for 3 weeks as a foster child situation. She was a financial worker at the time and the social workers were desperate for a place for her(teen girl and her son).

She was aboriginal and her poor 3mo son was able to wear my cabbage patch kids clothing! (none of my children could even as newborns!) I - a 13 yo who was in no way a relation to this babe - would wake up in the middle of the night when said babe would whimper and then proceed to wake her up so that she could care for her son. Actually, the order of waking was - me, my mother then the girl.

It took us three weeks of many many many times a night going to wake her up to get her to deal with her child. First it was screams before she'd wake up, but by the end of her stay, she was down to the babe whimpering. We had to teach her how to make her babe's formula, change diapers, keep his clothes clean, etc.

at 13, I knew better than the child's own mother!(?!?!?!?!?!)

It was eventually arranged for her to go to a home for unwed mothers where she'd learn all about how to parent. So I know those exist.

I think there still is a safe haven... but you have to be careful. You can loose everything if you change your mind.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I'm wondering what people here experienced when they gave birth for the first time. I know this is a subject that is generally taboo.........but..........

did you take one look at your baby and fall in love? Was the maternal urge to care for this precious infant immediate for you? Would you have died for your baby the moment you set eyes on him or her?

I don't think that this is the natural experience of every woman after birth. Even after mine, in a nice, clean hospital with a doula, a devoted husband, a loving extended family............ immediately after giving birth, and for some time afterwards, I had moments of panic where I needed all that support to keep me focused and on an even keel.

Talking to friends, I don't think that this is all that unusual. Many women I have talked about have mentioned moments of utter despair in the first few hours or days, when the hormones rush around your body and the overwhelming tiredness hits you. Not everyone has the same response after giving birth, especially the first time.

So, imagining this girl, a child herself, giving birth alone, unaided, scared, then having to think about telling her mother, I don't think that we can impose our own, tidy, nice thoughts about what is the right mothering response to a newborn baby onto her situation.

How can we make judgements about this girl? Reading the links, she did not throw the baby out with the garbage. SHe wrapped him up and left him on the pavement in a bag. Big difference.

Or did everyone here experience the ideal euphoria after giving birth? Maybe I am really alone on this one, but that was not what happened to me. There were highs, sure, but equally, there were lows and there were moments of panic and near hysteria. But I had the life experience and the support around me to know that the intensity of feelings would pass. This child did not. Is it really that surprising that she responded in fear and panic? Boy, I cannot imagine giving birth alone and afraid, even third time round in a few months. And I am truly an adult. What that must be like for a 15 year old I cannot imagine...


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

NAK

uh. no. Not with any of my children.

With ODD, I was more pissed that the doc ordered me a shot I didn't want right at the moment of birth in my leg so I was staring at that instead of watching my child get born. Even several days later, I still wasn't bonded, although I was doing all the motherly duties. When I passed a huge clot and passed out, when I came to, I forgot I had been pregnant. It took me an hour to remember. Of course, the stupid ass that was her father didn't bother to get me the medical attention I needed during this time period. That's one of the reasons why I call him D*ckw*d. But the weird thing with her was that we were linked. I knew what she wanted before she cried or even woke up until she was 6 almost 7mo when we were in a car accident. Then again, having some of her caul born first might have helped...

With DS, I was drugged up on antibiotics that made me trip out. And I was upset because 10 weeks earlier we had found out that DS was going to be a DS and not a wanted DD - to me at least. I spent the rest of my pregnancy in tears over whether or not I could parent a boy let alone even wanting one. It too took days if not weeks to bond with him. Even then, my fear over his health at birth kicked my maternal instinct into high gear with him.

DD is another thing... I'm currently going through the bonding process. I was elated that she was a DD - the first one for DP's family in 17 years, third in over 30. My SIaL (dp's sister) is a year younger than I and our neice is 17. I didn't have any true foreknowledge of her sex unlike her two sibs and I was sure she was going to be DS2.

Euphoria at her birth? Oh no... I blew out my pelvis giving birth to her. None of my children have any head moulding if at all. She had the least. Which means, I did all the moulding, not them. I am pretty sure I did something to my tailbone that my chiro has been trying to fix. I can walk now without a cane, but for several days the intense pain I was in right after her birth shortchanged any bonding I could have done. Fear of falling with her in my sling doesn't help either.

But I wouldn't trade a hospital birth for hers for all the world. Unlike her sibs, she's active and alert. Like them, she's started to try to hold her head up. Unlike them, she's cooed, smiled and has tried to roll over already. A drugged birth would have screwed that up.

Bonding isn't instantaneous. Unlike ODD, I have an attentive partner. Unlike DS, neither of us ran a 101F fever within the first 24hrs after birth. However, all four of us here have "the plague." So, instead of bonding, I've been trying to keep all of us healthy.

Bonding is a process on all levels. Unlike men, we have 9 months head start. That doesn't mean we are bonded at birth, but that the process has already started.

I remember reading an article when I was a young teen about how this one baby was denied by its mother in utero to the point where it wouldn't nurse from the biomom but would from a wet nurse. To me, that shows that bonding is two way.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

wow.

(have any of you read the artyicle in mothering about the need for prenatal + postpartum community / support?)

it's really hard for me to say this, but, i really can understand what would lead a person to this choice. does this mean i think she -- or her family -- should ever get the child back?? a resounding NO.

to put a little perspective in here... when i was pregnant with my daughter still, i dealt with a horrifying amount of prenatal depression (something still very much hush-hush in our culture) and i wrote a letter to my daughter -- mostly for myself to remind me why i should keep on kicking. i cried the whole time i wrote it... but it kept me from killing myself more than once.

honestly if i hadn't sat down and forced all of those feeings out, and dealt with them and made the promises in writing that i did in the letter i don't think i'd be here right now -- and i'm a 22 y.o. mother living in a much better situation than that poor girl.

here's the letter:

_dear Elyssa ~

this is your mommy writing to you.

i wanted you before i conceived you.

i loved you before i knew you existed.

i knew the moment i conceived you that my life had once again changed... and that the life i had craved within myself once again had come: you, a second star, a second Light in my life.

i am going through a very hard time right now.

i want you to know that i love you no matter what i say or think right now. that love is there even if it doesn't feel like it or it doesn't show.

as you grow up, you'll probably have to go through a lot of hard times too. i wish it didn't have to be this way.

i will do my best to be there for you ~ and your big brother ~ whenever either of you need me.

i want you to know how much you both mean to me. i want you to know that if it weren't for you and your brother, i wouldn't be here. my life would be worthless without you two.

i will do my best to keep myself healthy and well for you two, because you both deserve to have a mommy.

no matter how hard life gets, i will be there for you for as long as i can. i want you to know that i won't ever choose to abandon you.

i love you.

i love you without bounds. i love you more than the entire universe. i love you without words. i cannot tell you how strong you make me.

i will always love you two more than life itself. i want you to know that.

i know in the past couple of weeks i've seemed anxious for you to be born. i am excited to meet you. being pregnant this long is uncomfortable. but even though i've been antsy, i have loved being pregnant with you. please don't think there was ever a time when i didn't cherish feeling you growing inside me. there is nothing in the world like feeling my baby move inside me ~ feeling YOU move inside me. i hope that i don't pass along so much of my own illnesses that you won't experience this later in life; i hope that someday you become a mother and can welcome this joy in your own life. i hope that you have someone as wonderful as your daddy in your own life to lay their hands upon your belly and feel your own little one kicking and squirming and living within you, as your daddy has felt you in my belly.

i hope that when you grow up, you will have someone that loves your baby as much as your daddy loves you. i hope that you have someone who will lay their ear against your belly and hear your own baby's heartbeat.

i hope that you never feel the same pains that i've felt. i hope that you never have to go through the same turmoil i've experienced. i want you to have a wonderful life. i want everything to be good for you, always. i want you to look back on your childhood with a light in your eyes. i want you to grow up knowing you have always been safe and wanted.

i don't know how to be a good mother. i am still learning. your brother can tell you this when you are born. i have made a lot of mistakes. i still make them. i am sorry in advance for all of my yelling. i know you have already heard me yelling, heard my screeching. i try not to but sometimes i can't seem to help myself. maybe by the time you're old enough to remember what i was like when you were a kid i will have learned how to be a better parent.

i don't cook a lot either. when your big brother was a baby i used to make bread from scratch all of the time. he used to help me, but he doesn't remember it now. it was a long time ago. i used to take him to the park every morning, too. he doesn't remember that either. now, i don't think i could go to the park every morning. maybe after you are born i will feel better and we'll be able to do that again. i don't know for how long though.

i also don't clean very well. i try but i can't ever seem to keep up with it. i hope that it doesn't bother you too much, and i hope that i can learn better housekeeping skills by the time you're old enough to have to learn them yourself, however old that is.

i might have to get a job. i don't want to put you in daycare. please know that i would much rather stay home and teach you and raise you and be your mommy all of the time. i might not be able to give you the life i want to give you though.

i got you lots of beautiful, soft cloth diapers but you might not be able to wear them very much because right now we don't have a lot of money for washing laundry. i might have to make you wear cheap disposable diapers for awhile until i can get more laundry money. if i have to do this i promise when you're older i'll buy you lots of your own ladycloth if you want it.

i got you a soft sling and soft front carrier so you could be with me all of the time too but if i have to go back to work you won't be able to be in them very much. i'm sorry for this too.

i would like to be able to feed you all organic everything. i know that organic is better. but we can't afford everything organic right now, and might not ever be able to. i would love to be able to raise chickens too, so you and your brother could know the wonder of fresh-from-the-hen eggs in the morning and the sparkle of chicken feed as it is tossed to the ground in front of the hens at sundown.

i'm sorry for a lot of things i guess.

and i wish things could be different for you.

i want your life to be filled with light and joy. i want you to remember always being close to us and having lots of warm mama milk. i want you to remember having a mommy who spent all of the time with you and your brother.

i want you to grow up happy.

i hope that you remember the good.

i hope you never look back on your childhood the way i look back on mine. i hope that i never turn into a bitter old person like my parents. i hope that i can always be your friend as well as your parent. i hope that you grow up to trust me and feel like you can come to me about anything and everything.

i hope that i can be around enough for you to know that i put my family above everything else in life. i hope that i can show you how much you mean to me without having to say it in words.

i want you to grow up knowing that you are your own goddess. you have a power within you that nobody can take from you. i want you to grow up strong and confident in yourself and secure in your identity as a woman.

i want you to never hate yourself and your life.

i want you to be strong enough to be able to say NO if someone is doing something to you that you don't like.

i want you to have enough strength and courage to leave anyone who is hurting you.

i want you to never fear the world or feel broken or out of place in it. i want you to feel like you always have somewhere that you belong, even if it's just a place in your heart or a memory or my arms. i want you to always feel secure.

i want you to never feel like you have nowhere to go and nowhere that you belong.

with all of the love in the world,

mommy_

i don't think i could have dealt with that (the feelings, the depression, and the hormones we all know can be overwhelming) in any sort of rational or sane manner if i was in that girl's shoes.


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## achintyasamma (Aug 4, 2004)

I really don't know what should be done with the child. I think it depends on the intentions of the birth family. Since none of us have met them there's not much point arguing about it. I just wanted to post because it reminded me of something that's been bothering me a lot lately. The city buses here (Delaware) have big ads on them that are supposed to be pro-abstinence or pro-safe sex or something, but the slogan they're using is terrible! It says "being a teen parent is like being grounded 24/7"
I can remember adults in my school/community using similar scare tactics to make teens think twice before having sex, but I think they're going about it the wrong way.
Teens are being given the message that "being a mom sucks". It may be true that a teen mom has to give up a lot of things that other girls her age can do, but imagine how girls who find themselves pregnant must feel. There's not much emphasis on the joys of parenting even after they're already pregnant. It's no wonder that many of these girls have abortions or are somewhat irresponsible in their parenting (ie. leaving the baby with grandma all the time). Society sends them the message that having a baby is going to ruin their life.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Klothos









Your letter is beautiful.

I was very nervous about my posting last night, and so glad to see that some mamas can hear what I'm saying about having a new born baby and the desperate situation of this poor girl.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Teens are being given the message that "being a mom sucks". It may be true that a teen mom has to give up a lot of things that other girls her age can do, but imagine how girls who find themselves pregnant must feel. There's not much emphasis on the joys of parenting even after they're already pregnant.
that is so true.

i was considered so weird w/ my 1st because even though i was 17 + in high school, i dared to embrace the pregnancy + the joy of having a baby + becoming a mother. i would have been thrilled if someone "showed me the ropes," gave me a stash of Mothering back issues, or even some LLL + AP books. (alas, no-one did, and for over a year i relied on American Baby + Very Best Baby for the majority of my parenting info.







)


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Britishmom~ I just wanted to make it more clear that even though the stories you read in the links did not say that she threw the baby out in the trash, the news reported it on the tv showed the bag the baby was in, that was next to the other trash cans left in front of thier house on the curb as the trash collector was due the next morning to come collect it. The woman who heard the baby cry found him late that night.

Again, I am still torn.

klothos~







you are amazing.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Charmarty, it seems unclear then what exactly she did.

Even so, I don't believe that the argument that even a fifteen year old should know right from wrong applies in this situation.

Naturally, we'd all hope that if we were under this sort of pressure, our moral self would be able to find the right thing to do and not give in to an emotional hijacking. However, I believe that this is an unrealistic expectation given this girl's circumstances.

Alone, terrified, giving birth. Not knowing what to do while in labour - you can bet she didnt read twenty pregnancy books before doing so, nor did she have a doula to help her out! The sheer pain of natural childbirth had me reeling, personally. Then the bleeding - for me, this was a total shock first time round, and I still hated it second time, and dread it third time. To do all this alone, scared, as a child herself, is unimagineable. To me, anyway.

Then having to do something quick before her mum returned home. Having kept this secret for nine months, she didnt exactly have a lot of options open to her. As for being allowed to drop babies off at a hospital, I didnt know that as an adult until dh explained it to me recently. How on earth would a fifteen year old, secretely pregnant, have access to that information? It's not somethign that I believe most fifteen year olds gossip about on the school bus!

I just think, poor kid. And thank goodness someone found the baby.

To expect every child to act with an adult sense of morality and judgement in that situation is simply unrealistic imo. Maybe people's responses are coloured partly by their personal experience of childbirth and early bonding. I don't think that I had a particularly difficult time bonding with my babies. But I can fully understand how this girl may have looked at the baby as being a problem that she needed to hide, quick. Just as she had hidden him for the past nine months. To expect her to have a love of the baby or an overwhelming sense of needing to care for him is unrealistic, imo.

I don't condone what she did, but I have to say that I can fully understand how it happened. And I feel terribly, terribly sorry for her.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

BritishMum, your first post is exactly what I was trying to express early on&#8230;but you said it so much better than I did. Thanks.

I wanted to add another thanks about this thread because it was here that I heard about a new (to me) idea about 'extended childhood'. I find the discussion about the birth mother's age to be quite interesting and thought provoking.

I wonder how significant most of you feel the age of the mother is a factor.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

I might get flamed for this, but I think age has a HUGE amount to do with it.

I wish MDC was a safe haven for all mamas to come and learn, but in reality, ageism is as rampant here as it is everywhere else, and generally falls into 2 catagories-

There is NO WAY this girl could be a good mom because she was X years old!!! (outright dismissal of another human being's abilities due to age)

OR
I was X years old, and I handled it fine, so everyone should be able to.

NEITHER attitude leaves room for individual growth, experience, ability, or circumstances.

And I find that very frustrating.

But I'm not of a "hang 'em high" mindset personally. I just hate watching moms come here for support when they screw up, wanting help, or the benefit of doubt, or a hug, and then burning other moms at the stake, because they aren't publically flagelatting themselves! We all screw up! Some times bigger than others! Sometimes with good intentions, sometimes out of ignorance!

And it doesn't matter how old we are!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Britishmom~ I agree with you 100%. I DOnt think age should be an issue here. If the mother was 33 would it make a difference? To most perhaps, but to me it's all the same. What does have me bothered about her age is the fact that SO many teens her age are sexually active these days. This is where we should start IMO. Parents do have to step up tp the plate regardless of thier childs gender and TALK TALK TALK about sex thier whole lives! Don't start after they already had it!!!!!! Anyways, I will get off my soap box.

What still is hard for me to wrap my head around is the fact that even after she did this that she may get the baby afterall. I am having a hard time forgiving I guess.


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## kickchick2000 (Aug 17, 2004)

First off a 15 year old girl has no idea what on earth she is doing! I don't care what any of you say, think back, I know I sure as heck could not make any choices at 15, yet alone be pregnant. She was probably scared S%^tless and had no idea what do do, so her only option was well to get rid of the mistake. (I'm not saying thats the right thing to do I'm just pointing out a fact). Kids in crisis think here and now, they don't think consequences. Now for those saying "Why didn't she take the baby to the hospital or the police? Well I'm freaking sure she had no idea you could give a infant up to them with no questions because I did not know that(at 23) so I'm pretty darn sure she didn't either. What needs to happen is the child be adopted by some loving stable parents. Why on earth would the grandmother want custody, she already has children she seemingly can't take care of, why add another,let alone and infant, to the bunch. If grandma is out at work whose taking care of the baby. Plus why ruin this young girls life. I think sometimes people get overboard when their kids(under 18) have kids. They always want custody meanwhile there are plenty of wonderful couples out there that can't have kids who would treasure a child. As for the poor girl she needs to get some help, and jail is not it. I'm sure she is a nice young lady who got into a bad situation. As for the comment on the father if he's over 18 he should go to FREAKING JAIL for having sex with the girl. Faboulous idea lets put a young man in jail who had sex with a girl who agreed to have sex with him, great!. Thats just an easy cop-out to take the blame off both of them. I think whoever said that is a moron. JMO. I want everyone to think, you never know your child could one day be in the same position(a teen expecting, not refering to the putting the baby in the trash) no matter how much church or homeschooling you do. What it boils down to kids are not educated about sex properly. They are taught its bad don't do it but no one ever teaches them what to do if they have sex and get pregnant. No one gives them info on birth control or adoption. If this girl had easy acess to a counsler who could have helped her talk to her mom and come up with a solution whether it be an abortion, give the baby up for adoption, or become a mother things would not have turned out the way they did. Just my two cents and be mad all you want.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

quick reply-
about age- my FOUR YEAR OLD knows that you dont put a baby in a plastic bag and put it on the curb in freezing temps....sigh
i mean really guys- that baby is LUCKY TO BE ALIVE..and no matter what her reasoning or lack of reasoning she almost killed her baby INTENTIONALLY...or if not intentionally then in a bout of insanity...both cases make me think the baby is better off somewhere else...


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

oh and it dosnt matter if she "loved" the baby right away, or didnt, or if you "bonded" with your baby or didnt-just because you dont love a baby or arn't bonded with a baby dosnt mean its ok to kill it... before adoption and abortion there was infanticide...there are options in this society and(although i DONT advocate punishing her ie. jailtime) she does not deserve the privalidge of raising that baby...

i cant stop comparing this in my mind to severe child abuse...i think that everyone in here would be agreeing with my perspective had she been a mom who , lets say, started drowning her kid, then the nieghbor walked in and stopped her...later she is extreamly remorsful and tells us all she was so depressed and had no support...hmmm ok well thats nice , BUT you cant just KILL YOUR KIDS WHEN THEY ARE TOO MUCH TO HANDLE....


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Yes, Liz, and all that would be relevant IF people operated on their rational intellect 100% of the time.

But we don't.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"oh and it dosnt matter if she "loved" the baby right away, or didnt, or if you "bonded" with your baby or didnt-just because you dont love a baby or arn't bonded with a baby dosnt mean its ok to kill it"

Liz, nobody said that it was OK to kill a baby.







Nor did I say that I had any opinion about where the baby should go.

My intention was to look at the situation as a whole. To try to understand what maybe happened to that girl. And to be compassionate to her, as well as to the baby. And to be realistic about what happens to women during and after childbirth. To me, it is highly relevant that many women do not bond with a baby immediately. That they may even have some frightening thoughts about the baby immediately after birth - _even when the baby is wanted and they are in a position to care for it_. Maybe you cannot identify with this feeling, but I can. I know that I am not the only new mother who experienced moments of panic after - and during - childbirth. I know that this is very common, even amongst women giving birth in hospitals or at home with assistance, family, money, and support. If it's common for women like that, can you not at least try to imagine what it is like for a _child_ after giving birth alone at home, scared out of her mind? Do you not see any relevance to these points? Or is the human condition really that black and white for you. that you could pass the same judgement upon a fifteen year old in her circumstances as you would a thirty year old?

My four year old also knows that it would be wrong to put a baby in a plastic bag. That is not remotely relevant imo. My four year old is not fifteen, terrified, just having given birth to a baby, and totally panicked about what to do.

You can _know_ somethign is wrong. But that doesnt mean that you never do something wrong. And life is not black and white, there are many shades of grey.

We don't know this girl, and this is all conjecture. But I cannot understand this black and white mentality about situations such as these.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

I think age has a HUGE amount to do with it... IN OUR SOCIETY.

if people were educated properly this wouldn't even be an issue.


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## binxsmom (Jun 14, 2004)

so, did the girl's mother not realize that her 90 lb daughter was pregnant?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

From what I understand, the mother *did* ask the girl if she was pg, but she denied it. I know that I put on a lot of weight in 8-9th grade (almost 30 lbs and 4 inches of height) so I don't think it is out of control









Quote:

As for the comment on the father if he's over 18 he should go to FREAKING JAIL for having sex with the girl. Faboulous idea lets put a young man in jail who had sex with a girl who agreed to have sex with him, great!. Thats just an easy cop-out to take the blame off both of them. I think whoever said that is a moron. JMO.
While I don't appreciate being called a moron, I will go ahead and respond calmly if able.

(More info has been given and the father is actually a child himself... 14 or 15 so it does not apply to this situation). YES, the ADULT MAN who CHOSE to have sex with a 14 year old CHILD should be charged with statutory RAPE in every single case. If they are truly deeply in love, he can go ahead and do the right thing and wait until she is old enough to give legal consent. I can't believe someone here is arguing for adults impregnating 14 year olds w/no consequences.

Britishmum---

I'm not sure exactly who/what you are argueing for/against.

I do not support the child-mother going to jail, but I also can't support her being given custody of the child-infant. All the reasons you have stated do nothing to change my mind about that. Sympathy for her I have in abundance. BUT, if feel her best "second" chance would be at a first childhood, not raising an *additional* child.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I don't consider age to be a defining variable in this situation, but rather, perhaps, a co-variable?

Anyway, if you look at the age of ranges of people, it is obvious that at *some point* there is no question--- no matter how mature, loving, etc... it is just *too* young.

Now, I personally, do not find this age to be 15. BUT, I think that 15 year olds giving birth need a lot more support, and an easier way "out" than, say, a 35 year old. Because there are 15 year olds who would make great parents and 35 year olds who are dismal failures. I don't think that makes me ageist, I think it makes me realistic.


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## Blowfish (Sep 27, 2004)

From only reading the article and not this thread, I must say I see no reason as why the grandmother should not gain custody.
Not telling your mother of a pregnancy at 15 is what many do for a long time, allthough I think few may be able to hide it an entire pregnancy.
But what I do know, is the unjust fear of telling a parent something you think they`ll "kill" you over, when reality is that things go very well once you do.

I think the girl needs some action taken against her for what she did, but I see no reason for depriving the mother of her grandchild when she has no harm in this.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I think the girl needs some action taken against her for what she did, but I see no reason for depriving the mother of her grandchild when she has no harm in this.
I, personally, do not consider grandparents to have a "right" to custody.

IMO, there should be a reason *to* give a child to someone (not their parents), not a reason not to, kwim?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I honestly don't consider myself a liberal but if parenting was so important wouldn't we (as a society) establish some means for people at risk to acquire the skills they need to be good parents.

....And I can't remember if I mean the 15yo girl or her poor overworked overstressed mother.

Debra Baker


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Has anybody who supports sending this girl to jail explained yet what good they think it will do?

It can't un-abandon the baby, of course.

I doubt that she's at risk for abandoning a second baby (really, can't imagine how low the recurrence rate of that would be), so direct deterrence is out.

One might argue that it would "set an example" for other pregnant women, but a) I doubt teen girls spend time in advance thinking, "Yeah, if I get pregnant I'll hide it till I gve birth alone and then leave the baby in the trash, that's a good idea" and b) really, don't we prevent things like this through education (on alternatives and to prevent the unwanted pregnancies in the first place), support and a more decent social structure for pregnant women and families?

One might also argue that it would "teach her a lesson" but what kind of lesson? Punitiveness hasn't been shown to effectively teach anything, IMO. I mean we're at a forum with a gentle discipline board, for cryin' out loud, how can people here argue that punishment after the fact would be effective? And wouldn't putting a 15-year-old in prison to be abused and probably raped just eventually release an older, angrier woman on the world? Where's the improvement there?

Not to mention that sending someone to jail isn't cheap. If we're gonna spend the dollars, wouldn't therapy and education be a better investment (not even going into the whole compassion thing)?

I don't think it sounds like giving her custody of the baby would be a good idea (although I'm not sure, really) but sending her to jail would be moronic and pointless, IMO.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I'm not sure exactly who/what you are argueing for/against."

Tiredx2, I really am not taking any position regarding who should get this baby. I don't think that anyone here has any right to comment, as we don't know the family.

My point is that the black and white statements on this thread about how she should know better etc etc are not in keeping with how I personally view the situation. I sensed a lack of compassion and a lack of realism about the case. As someone else said, to slam this child for a sad but understandable mistake, is not in keeping with gentle parenting and attitudes towards children.

I was simply trying to open up minds as to what that poor girl probably felt and why she did what she did. I think that she deserves more compassion than that shown by some of the posters here. That's all.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Thanks for the clarification









I was just getting so confused. I guess because I was trying to draw conclusions from your statements, but you weren't actually doing so.









I don't see how anyone cannot feel bad for *everyone* involved in this situation.

Thanks again


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## Sitara (Sep 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I honestly don't consider myself a liberal but if parenting was so important wouldn't we (as a society) establish some means for people at risk to acquire the skills they need to be good parents.

Debra Baker


i agree!!

I think society as a whole needs to address parenting and "family".
I don't believe in adoption, so I do not opt for that for this baby, I can remember being 15, and having little communication with my mom. Not being able to tell her anything. I can't imagine having to tell her I was pregnant. Terrified of what she would say. Who knows if she would have supported me or not, but if the grandmother of the child wants to help her keep her baby and raise it, I believe that is best. Unless of course, she is mentally unstable to do so. Then a permanant living condition honoring the childs rights should be arranged, imo.

Kali


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

T

Quote:

I don't believe in adoption, so I do not opt for that for this baby,








Can you extrapolate on not "believing" in adoption, please?


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

equences.

Britishmum---

I'm not sure exactly who/what you are argueing for/against.

I do not support the child-mother going to jail, but I also can't support her being given custody of the child-infant. All the reasons you have stated do nothing to change my mind about that. Sympathy for her I have in abundance. BUT, if feel her best "second" chance would be at a first childhood, not raising an *additional* child.[/QUOTE]

ditto


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

What the hell is going on?????????????????????










I came home this afternoon to my neighbours teenage daughters baby being taken into Social services custody with police escort. The mother of the baby is now 17. The baby is 14 months old. To my knowledge there were some problems there(all night parties when parents were out of town) but not much more. No neighbours ever heard anything or saw anything. Not that that means anything but it is still a shock. It has made me really think alot deeper about this little boy and his situation . I think I feel right now that he should not go back to his mother or grandmother and that he should be allowed to move on from this and hopefully have a good life ahead of him. I really do feel it is TOO risky to bring him back to an already unbalanced situation with his birth mother. I would rather now then again sometime later for this sewwt baby. I don't know if any of you have ever witnessed such a heart breaking scene watching a baby beibg taken from her only world. I happen to know what it feels like to be that little girl being removed like that and if there was one kid I could spare those horrible feelings.........THIS LITTLE BOY DOES NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH YET A SECOND TRAUMA.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Tiredx2









Liz, I clarified for Tiredx2. I never made any comment about who should have the baby. I dont think any of us have the knowledge or information to pass comment, personally.

But I do feel that some of the previous posts were lacking in compassion for this child, and were viewing the situation as black and white as a moral issue. I was trying to point out the likely reality for this poor girl, and I do feel that the issue of bonding or not with a new baby is highly relevant.

I think that many people have an idealised vision of motherhood and childbirth, and do not understand or accept the reality of what the experience entails for many women. Maybe they were lucky and didnt experience all the turmoil that childbirth can bring. Maybe they were lucky and had 100% support from partners, family, friends, professionals too. Some of the early posters on this thread seemed to see things very clearly and were quick to condemn this child. IMO this is not realistic, compassionate, or in keeping with gentle, loving family values.

Understanding why someone may make a bad choice is not the same as condoning it. We have all made bad choices in our lives - that is part of the human condition. As a teenager, most of us probably made some terrible choices - I know that I did.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

To my knowledge there were some problems there(all night parties when parents were out of town) but not much more. No neighbours ever heard anything or saw anything.
Charmarty- what is the point here?


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, sorry I didn't clarify. That was the only time the neighbours saw the police there.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Here is a dfferent baby but relatively the same story.
http://kcal9.com/localnews/localnews...244175002.html


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I am still trying to get more info on this story with no luck.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Here is a dfferent baby but relatively the same story.
http://kcal9.com/localnews/localnew..._244175002.html
Wow, imo, that is even *worse*!

Quote:

The boy, whose umbilical cord still was attached, was inside a trash bag and *had another bag tied around his neck*


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I just can't get over why people think it is every ok to throw away a baby!!! It just boggles my mind.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"First off a 15 year old girl has no idea what on earth she is doing! I don't care what any of you say, think back, I know I sure as heck could not make any choices at 15, yet alone be pregnant."

Um, No.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I am really upset that this is boiled down to age again. Would you feel so much more differently than if it was a 33 y.o woman? Fact is that no matter the age, there is something very wrong in her way of thinking that it is even a possibility. She needs physcological help. Period. 15 or 30.
Whan I turned 16, 3 days after my birthday, I moved from a fosterhome into an apartment of my own. I knew how to pay bills, feed myself call 911. I know thta soem kids mature sooner than others and soem have more life experience, but 15 years old should know how to make better choices. I mean she was pregnant for how long? This had to have been thought of somewhere along the way. She did not wake up pergnant one day. She had to have thought it out some how.

I plan to raise my kids to be able to make informed choices, (not necessarily always good chioces) but informed ones.
Even as I type this I struggle with what exactly it is I want to say. I just know in my heart that this girl knew it was wrong. I cannot excuse the behavior.


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