# Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond



## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Seeing how the other thread is closed I was hoping you would discuss circ with us further over here.

You can do what we do, you choose not to. You can come out and say circ is wrong, other doctors do, and some even refuse to do them. I strongly feel it's the fault of doctors that circs are so common and I feel it's going to have to be doctors and insurance companies that end the practice. Doctors started circ in the USA, now it's up to them to put a stop to it. People look up to you for guidance. They usually do what doctors tell them to do (Not that I agree with that.), and if a doctor is wishy washy on circ and will agree to perform it for them then how are they supposed to really know how bad circ is? If it's really bad doctors wouldn't do it, right? I can't tell you how many times I've heard that before.

I really hope you will reconsider your stance on circ, and please don't feel offended by any of the posts here. This is just something that most of us see as a human rights issue, and it brings out a lot of emotions.

Oh, and I feel strongly about breastfeeding and the family bed too. Circumcision should be seen as a much more serious issue though IMO. It surgically alters the child for life, the risks are great, and it violates the child's body and rights. Not to mention it's very painful, damaging, and totally unnecessary.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Thank you for starting this thread. I hope Dr. Gordon replies. His website does have anti-circ links; I would like to see him have a consistent message of being anti-circ (including when he speaks to more "mainstream" parents.) We need another famous doctor on board!


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

PS. Dr. Gordon told me in an email that he does not perform circs. That is wonderful to know, even if he does not choose to respond to us here.


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## Xenogenesis (May 1, 2002)

He omits the information his customers are entitled to receive, disregarding the damage the trauma can do to the Mother/Child Breastfeeding relationship.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by Last Minute*
... He omits the information his customers are entitled to receive, disregarding the damage the trauma can do to the Mother/Child Breastfeeding relationship ..._

Could you please post a link for information regarding this topic.

Thanks.


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## Xenogenesis (May 1, 2002)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...57#post1193157

Ps. What omission are the ellipses indicating?








:


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## Xenogenesis (May 1, 2002)

http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/

Quote:

It has been established in numerous studies that circumcision causes changes in infant brain function and behavior. Marshall el al. (1982)1 and Howard et al (1994)5 have studied the effect of the pain, stress, and trauma, of male neonatal circumcision upon subsequent feeding behavior. They each found that male circumcision disrupts feeding behavior. Sometimes the infant is returned to the mother in an exhausted and debilitated state in which he is unable to manage the task of latching-on and feeding.5
- and -

Quote:

Breastfeeding provides many health and developmental benefits to the infant, so clearly breastfeeding failure should be avoided. Traumatic and stressful events in infancy interfere with breastfeeding success. The AAP Policy statement on breastfeeding states that traumatic procedures should be avoided lest they interfere with breastfeeding initiation. Taddio and colleagues report that male neonatal nontherapeutic circumcision causes an "infant analogue of posttraumatic stress disorder."6 Rhinehart has clearly and indisputably documented neonatal male circumcision as a traumatic procedure.7 Parents who intend to provide the benefits of breastfeeding should think carefully before subjecting their new baby to circumcision.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

I would like him to talk more about the circ/breastfeeding association, as well. But I am pleased that he *at least* doesn't perform them himself.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

I'd like to know if he won't come out against circ because he's afraid that would end his career or what? Other doctors have done it, why not you Dr. Jay?

Let's all try to keep it civil. I don't want this to turn like one of the other threads did.







One of them was pretty bad. Dr. Jay was really attacked, and that is not my intention so I hope he doesn't see my post in that way.

And I am very glad to hear he doesn't do circs.







Is that because Peds don't do them there or is that a choice he made?


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

His personal religious beliefs may conflict with being more vocal against circ.

He said in his email that he has never performed a circ because he won't inflict pain on a baby without a good reason.

PS. AnnMarie, I love your Senior title!


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by Last Minute*
... PS - What omission are the ellipses indicating?








:_

Not indicative of omission. Simple style choice.

And the link to the thread was not an answer to *my* question, was it? Because I didn't see anything about the nursing/circumcision question ...
unless I missed something. And thanks for the other link.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by somemama_
*His personal religious beliefs may conflict with being more vocal against circ.

He said in his email that he has never performed a circ because he won't inflict pain on a baby without a good reason.

PS. AnnMarie, I love your Senior title!







*

Thanks!







Ditto.








WTG Dr. Jay! By not performing them IS taking a stand, so good for you!


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Yes, I'm much happier now knowing that he doesn't perform circs himself.

But it is still a little strange that he comes to MDC to promote talking to us on the radio, but he won't talk to us here on this forum. Oh well.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Look- first of all his request was posted on the Vax forum (and others?) not here. His request was for topics of AP concern and he listed a few and circumcision was NOT listed. We may have assumed that it was covered under the broad definition of AP principles... but he didn't ask for questions about circumcision for the radio show on the Vax forum.

Yes, the circumcision issue MAY be a beef that people want to have with him, or his website, or book, or magazine articles... there gripes may be legit... but this issue WAS NOT one of the ones that he asked for input. He didn't start it, he didn't bring it up.

I don't think it's fair to him to get all bent out of shape that he does not want to engage in a picked fight on a topic that he was not addressing.

What if I went somewhere to talk about circumcision and I was stopped at the door by people saying, unless you totally reform or become outspoken about your opinions about abortion we are going to throw rocks at you and everything you say.

Did it ever occur to you that he might not even be at liberty to tell you why he can't/won't talk about circumcision? You can't go forcing a person to be a spokesperson.

Have you thought that it's possible that if he spoke out about it that he would totally lose ... not his audience... but his connections with the powerhouses that connect him to those audiences?

We all have to make choices, I have had to make choices in my life that favored intactivism over breastfeeding- because of opressive forces that would silence me coming from LLL. LLL says that I am NOT at liberty to speak truthfully about circumcision... that the issue must be only abbreviated into a distilled message about how it hurts breastfeeding... that's like saying slaves toiling in cotton fields is bad because monoculture farming is hurtful to the enviornment... it's downright INSULTING.

Please don't try to push or encourage Dr. Jay Gordon into making lame LLL level arguments against cirucmcision. It's sexist and demeaning to children. Children are entitled to the best nutrition, and they are also entitled to their whole sex organ... and their entitlement to their sex organ is not justified by a threatened chance to get nourished at the breast.

It is pointless to ask a person incapable of speaking out for the human rights of children to do so.

Direct TV- Don't you think it's odd that I can find a show about sex change operations or intersexuals ... even "taboos" on discovery health on just about any night of the week- but never a peep about circumcision. channels showing nothing but non stop birth and pregnancy- I have never seen them mention circumcision to an expecting mom- never bring a consent form, never show them take the baby... never show the genital torture... total black out of information. Surely it's not just an oversight, or a lack of people willing to speak- you know the panel- they are not Ted Kajinski's hiding in the forest- they have their phone numbers right there on the websites... if someone wanted to make a show you know who to call...you know the show would be interesting, you know people would tune in- even if they didn't agree- but the topic will not even be introduced to be argued... not by Oprah, maybe Bill Maher would bring it up... oh I forgot- he got silenced didn't he?

Have you heard about what is going on with Howard Stern right now?

Can you imagine for a minute that the black out might not be about people's willingness to speak... that there might be a lot more going on with what we are allowed to hear?

Right here... right here on MDC... thread locked, posts deleted...

Yes, someone has got to do some challenging. I think that Candice made some great points and they were SHOCKING... they were shocking because we are never allowed to hear her questions in the public setting. They were right on! Maybe she was rude to Dr. Jay- just slamming out of the shadows with a well planned and premeditated suckerpunch. OUCH! Poor Dr. Jay... he didn't ask for that- it was awful!

But really- it may be against the guidelines to behave like that here at MDC- but wouldn't it be nice if we could slam the world with hearing some suckerpunch questions... even if we didn't have a prizefighter spokesperson.

But I guess even the call in shows are canned.

Welcome to the world little baby, meet your Big Brother.

Love Sarah


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sarah_
*

I don't think it's fair to him to get all bent out of shape that he does not want to engage in a picked fight on a topic that he was not addressing.*

Sarah, I was not bent out of shape, nor was I picking a fight with him. I was _trying_ to discuss circumcision with him. I'm not going to change how I post for him because he's a doctor.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Quote:

Right here... right here on MDC... thread locked, posts deleted...
What are you implying Sarah?


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## Christy1980 (Jul 7, 2002)

yes, he is a Dr, but he is also a person. He knows the risks and dangers of circ, just like we do. He chooses not to perform them, and he does have an anti-circ position. Let's not try to alienate him. He has to work slowly, planting seeds, like the rest of us. If he starts out with a loud bang, he's going to turn ppl off and they're going to think, "what a crazy guy, I'm going to circ anyway." It's all about planting seeds. This is going to be a slow movement, and we all know that. We just have to be patient and accept the assistance we get from those that can help, even if it's just a little bit.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Cynthia-

I understand why what happened did... just as I understand why Dr. Jay Gordon can't be outspoken in the national media about circumcision. Because there are rules. I wan't criticising.

Maybe not the same rules, maybe not for the same reasons- but the fact is- certain challenges are not allowed. (for example- not being allowed to discuss ritual circumcision)

Even at the places like this.

My point was not that MDC was out of line... but that, if MDC can't allow Candice to surprise Dr. Jay ... why would NPR allow Dr. Jay to surprise America?

People might be offended, feelings could be hurt, the peaceful atmosphere might fall apart, flame wars might erupt. We need to censor the troublemakers, ban the taboo, for the good of the whole system.

We certainly can't go having a few million circumcised men seeing their scar in a new way the next time they pee. We can't take away their solace.

My husband and I have actually been arguing over the Candice thing today believe it or not- he is shocked and outraged and I am shrugging my shoulders thinking, "Well what can you expect- you can't go attacking someone out of the blue at that level" (although I have been known to do it myself...) We both agree that Candice's points were very well made and her POV was one of astounding clarity. I have no idea who she is, I don't "hang" at the Vax forum... but WOW- that lady is a Tigress- I feel so lucky that I had a chance to see her posts when they were there... the ideas about the appeal to authority and who is an expert that she presented- AWESOME- it was a great tweak to my brain... a beautiful lightbulb- Candice flipped that switch for me. ...
and all at the same time- Oh Candice... why Dr.Jay? Couldn't you have picked on an enemy who is more emeny-ish? And if aiming a kick at celebrity Doctors and their views, couldn't she have delievered it to Dr. Sellout Sears (who wrote in this month's PARENTING "While breast milk contains the highest-quality of iorn in any food, there isn't enough of it in mother's milk... " ) But all my sympathy for Dr. Jay aside... that would be missing the point. Candice was making a brave statement that was going to be inherently rude- no matter who it was directed to... there was not way for that statment to be made within the guidelines. Just like there is no way to say that circumcision is sexually damaging without in the same breath calling all those circumcised men sexually damaged, without calling all those colleagues sexual mutilators. That's why it can't get said, because the core of the revolution is offensive, and it can't be polite.

My husband holds all silent doctors accountable for the sexual damage they allow to happen within their profession without question, he thinks that Dr. Jay has a duty to spit it out- no matter what the fallout... not that we want to hear his opinion just because he is a Dr, but because he has an ethical duty to human beings who need help, and that hopefully another and another Dr. will step up to the plate to be honorably blacklisted as people who abhor the sexual mutilation of children. And I shrug my shoulders and say, "What do you expect, you can only fight on so many fronts, it's nice to have some of your message heard."

It's going to take a brave bridge burner, someone like Candice, to be able to say the things that need to be said about circumcision. Circumcision needs people who don't have any other interests to protect, who aren't stuck trying to balance the good of education on breastfeeding against the threat of losing it all. Which is why, although I wish for it as hard as Ann-Marie that Dr. Jay would put the ethical bite into the information which moves it from appoligist filler to truth.. I know there is no point in tryng to hound a professional person with their whole career at stake to take on the unspeakable cause.

Leave it to the people who have true freedom of speech.

Love Sarah


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Sarah, great couple of post. You are absolutly right. Dr. jay Gordon probably has his hands tied more than we can know. At least he doesn't perform circs (does Dr. Sears?). I wish I had had a chance to read Candince's post, they sound like they were very thought provoking.
It is about planting seeds. Although I have a hard time not coming out "guns a blazin", it's just my personality , when I believe something it is with my whole being and I get very passionate. Planting seeds takes so damn long. Infant circumcision needed to stop before it ever began. Enough is enough.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Sarah, I've seen some of your posts to parents that have circed or were thinking about it, and I have to tell you that your post about Dr. Jay really has me perplexed.







:

Doctors must take a stand for this practice to stop.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

According to his own words, he's been against circ for 25 years. Isn't that "slowly" enough for the seeds to be planted?







:

You're quite the conspiracy theorist. IMHO, it's just related to his religion.

But, if his hands are tied, that's too bad.

Anyone catch "Iron Jawed Angels" on HBO? Even though the topic was different (suffragist movement), it carried a powerful message to us all about never giving up the fight, *regardless* of the powers that be.

Yes, I found it curious that he posted on the vax forum, and the mods never moved his message to the more general TAO board. Perhaps he felt that forum was "safe" for him (and it wasn't.)

But he'd have to know that, in appealing to an AP audience, the circ issue would come up. His list of AP topics said "and more," which left the door open to the circ question. I emailed his lovely and talented Mary a question about circ. I doubt I'll hear back. Canned? Yes, quite. Too bad. I like NPR.

And you're right, Ann, Sarah is pulling her punches here, and usually she doesn't.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?

And as for this seed sewing... I don't think it's done by planting a moderate seed at the moment it's desperatly needed... it's done by planting a radical seed decades before you harvest the fruit. That's what sewing seeds is about.

Not by saying to the pregnant woman, "You realise that circumcising this baby could make it more difficult for YOU to breastfeed him."

It's done by saying to the 16 year old boy, "It is unconstitutional to deny protection to people on the basis of gender or race, so why is it that it is illegal to even draw a line wih a razor on the genitals of a girl - and yet the AAP says that cultural considerations are VALID when considering mutilating a boy."

Love Sarah


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Hey Ladies~

First, I'm a redhead! Second, my name is Sarah Elizabeth. Third, I'm "some mama" too! And Fourth, I love the way you three post!! You guys throw down like no one else about the stuff that really matters... How nice that we're all on the same team!

I'm always torn.. I never fail to absolutely SLAM someone with my opinion before I even know I've done it.. I'll be with a group of friends that I have *so much* in common with, it never occurs to me that we might have that ONE issue where we disagree...

I throw out there that I believe PS is damaging to children, or that circ'ing is senseless genital mutilation of boys/men, and sure enough, someone flips out. But they usually wait to do it until I'm gone. AND SOWING SEEDS... SUCKS!! I too just want people to blanking WAKE UP. What I appreciate here is how we confront each other to get to the bottom of issues, rather than just assume we know what the other poster was saying, and holding on to those angry/bitter feelings.

I learn more every day here! Wish I had seen Candice's posts, as well!

lizzie


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this *one* of my causes.

Jay


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

I usually don't read this forum as a messianic mama (born and raised jewish, practicing Christian as an adult - my son was circumcized in a brit milah by a mohel/urologist).... but i saw the title and read a bit. I guess I'm not here enough to have even known the good doc had been here. Should read more. lol.

Anyway, my dh brought up a thought when I discussed it with him. He said basically that just as many thought Mel's "Passion" might spark antisemitism.... that some folks might feel that circumcision debate using words like "mutilation" might be deemed antisemetic. Generally public speakers, public figures, do try to steer clear of being labeled antisemites.

just my dh's thought on why Dr.Gordon might choose not to practice routine circumcision as a pediatrician but not take a public stand against it. I mean only a small percentage of Americans are Jewish and have their sons circ'd in a bris - i think its like 2% compared to the 86% Christians and the other 12% of other religious or no religious affiliations (will have to check primetimes poll again to be sure of those numbers)... but still, maybe?

again. just his thought.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Dr. Gordon:

I want to thank you for having the courage to come here and address our concerns and hope you will continue to engage in the debate. I was afraid you would dodge this issue and I am grateful to be proven wrong.

Thus far, I have found two issues that I disagree with you on. One is the proper pain relief for the circumcision procedure. In the 1999 AMA sponsored study, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB) was found to be ineffective and the only effective method was found to be subcutaneous ring block. Ideally, the ring block would be preceeded by EMLA cream with sufficient time to work (30 minutes or so). I think as a humanitarian gesture, you could advocate ring block instead of DPNB. As you know, there is not much difference, just the difference of 3 local injections instead of one and the application of EMLA cream with time to work. The latest research shows that less than 4% of circumcisers have EVER used this method. That is appalling and we can use your respected voice in this issue. I think it is also important that you make it perfectly clear that even with a ring block, the procedure is not pain free, only attenuated.

The other thing is not as easy. I take issue with your statement that it is a parents choice. Many parents take that statement as justification with the good doctor's blessing to circumcise their child. When the steel was taken to my genitals, my choice was purloined by a doctor that told my parents that it was their choice and they believed him. It wasn't his choice and it wasn't my parents choice. It was mine and mine alone. My choice and full sexuality was stolen from me simply because I could not defend myself and speak up for myself. I believe you can get your message across without this pablum statement and without offending your listeners. You have chosen to take the podium in the public spotlight and with that comes a certain responsibility. I respectfully ask that you take that responsibility and construct a position that does not pass the rights of a man to his genitals to anyone else. I think it can be done. There are others who are doing it and not losing their public voice.

Respectfully,
Frank


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

Jay*
Wonderful!









Yes, those are huge victories. We are so glad to have you here with us. I'm sorry we all got off on the wrong foot on the vax thread. And I realize that I perhaps came off as rude over there, as well.

I'm not asking you to commit to this as your only issue. But this is my only remaining question: Why take a harder stance on circ in certain arenas than in others? Why not be consistent with your message, whether that is a moderate or more radical message? Why list lots of anti-circ links on your website, but be so neutral in other venues?

What you say about circ in your book Listening to Your Baby particularly bothers me. I almost wish you hadn't mentioned circ at all there, since you come across as really neutral.

The phrase you use that particularly bothers me is "TRY not to circ your son." Try not to? What does that mean, exactly? Like I might stumble and accidentally circ him? I try to lose weight; I didn't try not to circ my son, I just didn't circ him. See the difference?

You present other non-mainstream concepts in that book--such as co-sleeping and delayed vaxing or non- vaxing. So, it's not as if you've written a mainstream book, anyway. So, why not be a little stronger against circ? Why not say that you don't perform circs and you wouldn't circ a son yourself? If you consider it a personal question (which I disagree with, by the way), why not at least state what you would do personally?

I know it's your book and you can do what you want with it, but if you were to change it to a stronger anti-circ message, it would then be the perfect AP book to give to everyone I know who is expecting a baby. (Since you already cover so many other important issues, such as breastfeeding.)

Thank you for your time.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sarah_
*AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?

*
It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by somemama_
*It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.*
Yup, exactly.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this one of my causes.

Jay*

I think you might have misunderstood. I don't think, and I don't think anyone else does either, that you should "lock out" anyone. Your post cleared up a lot of things for me. I was under the impression that you didn't tell them how you feel and why. You are to be commended for taking a stand against circ. I know it's hard.









I'd still like to see some info against circ in your FAQ section though.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lizzie_
*Third, I'm "some mama" too! And Fourth, I love the way you three post!! You guys throw down like no one else about the stuff that really matters...*
:LOL That's something I don't think I've ever heard before. Thanks.


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Again, I understand your indignation and anger towards someone who circumcises and share your desire to keep all boys intact.

I assume you are aware of the medical propaganda which talks about the "benefits" of circumcision and view it with the same disdain I do. However, most doctors believe it and they use it to scare parents into a circumcision.

Most pediatricians are not just trained to circumcise when possible but are also not well trained in the care of the intact foreskin.

I'd like to rephrase my original thoughts. When we use words like "mutilation" and "shame"--as accurate as they might be--we appear to be trying to scare parents and we also look too extreme for reasonable discourse. We can continue to post at MDC and similar places and pat each other on the back for taking a tough and then tougher stance. But, my main goal is to influence parents and doctors and I think *I* do better with a different tone. If we disagree, it's not by much.

Jay


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:

Thus far, I have found two issues that I disagree with you on. One is the proper pain relief for the circumcision procedure. In the 1999 AMA sponsored study, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB) was found to be ineffective and the only effective method was found to be subcutaneous ring block. Ideally, the ring block would be preceeded by EMLA cream with sufficient time to work (30 minutes or so). I think as a humanitarian gesture, you could advocate ring block instead of DPNB. As you know, there is not much difference, just the difference of 3 local injections instead of one and the application of EMLA cream with time to work.
No, I was not aware of this difference and should have been. As I've mentioned, I have never done a circumcision and never intend to, but I still should have been aware of the best anesthesia. Maybe, just maybe, I did not want to be complicit in the act and didn't want to give that "ring block" advice.

Nope, I just didn't know. But now I do.

Thanks, Frank.

Jay


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:

You're quite the conspiracy theorist. IMHO, it's just related to his religion.
No, this is not related to my religion. I have spoken out, in public and in print about the fact that most Jewish families do not obey the 613 laws of the Bible and that if they'd like to pick a law to skip, they could skip circumcision and follow the rest.

I have now reread this entire thread and could have answered on one post instead of three, I guess.

This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?

Yes, yes, I know: MGM is nastier we could say and people who claim that there's really a choice deserve the backs of our hands and not a discussion. Again, I respectfully disagree. In just 48 hours on this board, I have learned a lot. I tend to talk to much and listen less than I should but I am hearing what you have to say. I just think that most people listen better when we're respectful of their opinions.

Jay


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:

just my dh's thought on why Dr.Gordon might choose not to practice routine circumcision as a pediatrician but not take a public stand against
My goodness, I will actually read everything before I post from now on.

I have taken a public stance against circumcision and in favor of leaving every baby boy intact. I tell parents that if a boy chooses to be circumcised, we can let him do it when he's a teenager. I am serious when I say that.

As a result of this discussion, and in the interests of the best health, humane treatment and intellectual integrity, every single discussion I have with parents from now on will be more forceful. My language will not mirror yours, but I will change.

Jay


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## momto3boys (May 15, 2003)

Hello, Dr Gordon!

I was just talking about you with Dr Fleiss. And now you are here. It's great to have you.

I was asking Dr Fleiss who to see if and when he retires. He said you.

When speaking to him I did learn of some of the dififficulties that Dr's of your stance, encounter when getting your message out.

The example he gave me was of a LLL meeting he was speaking at. There was a question and answer session after his speech. He was told he was NOT allowed to discuss circ. He replied, "What if they ask?"......

Needless to say the questions where written down and previewed before they were asked. They eliminated any questions pertaining to circ. Nothing could be mentioned. However, they did allow him to sell his sleep and circ books as well as sign them. But he couldn't comment on the content of his circ book.

When I see a freshly circ'd penis or hear of a friend who has circ'd their child I feel intense sadness, and I only know a fraction of what you and Dr FLeiss would know. How do you feel when it is presented in your office raw and wrapped in gauze?

What are your ideas on better education for parents to be?

I have alot of respect for you in your stance of bfing, vax, homebirth. You were also recommended by my midwife, Shelley Girard. I loved reading your column in Fit Pregnancy when I was preg.

Keep up the good work! OK. Maybe you could be a little more of a hardass on the circ issue.......

Angela


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Not to mention the fact that circ is a great portal of entry to hospital acquired MRSA, and quite commonly results in cellulitis in the groin, with the poor kid then on IV Antibiotics. Which is a great start for the gut flora.

And given that MRSA is now becoming a community problem, even more of a reason not to passively stand back since hospitals aren't the only place you can contact it.

A firmer stand is warranted. Circumcision as you know (though some of your colleagues would dispute it) serves no useful purpose in the absence of clear cut medical reason of which there are really







.

The article below says that community acquired MRSA is found in 20% of skin & soft tissue infections in Japan. In the UK, 19% of kids > 5yo with eczema carried MRSA, though that is not mentioned in the abstract below. If you have not seen this one, you might like to add it into the equation.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12734443


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Dr. Jay:

Let me apologize for some of the angst you have seen. I understand there is some that I have not seen which apparently, was pretty intense.

I think the problem is angst at the medical profession and not at you but you happen to be present and available. We hear on a daily basis of doctors who strongly encourage circumcision despite the official stance of the AAP and AMA, of forcible retractions of infants, of Dx of phimosis in 1 year olds and of DX of infection when it is really only irritation of the normal separation process. We hear of dire warnings of doctors to mothers who have left their children intact and have had no problems. We depend on our medical care providers for accurate up to date medical information and in this area, we have been failed miserably by the vast majority of the medical profession. You happened to step into a vipers pit as a representative of the medical profession. We realize you are an ally and we want you have the correct information. We have not done a very good job of communicating that.

I have been studying this issue intensely for several years and have gained something of an "Ask Frank" reputation here. I have been asked how I know all of this information when the doctors don't know it. My answer has been that I study a single issue about a single organ and a doctor can't possibly spend the time I do on a single issue and single organ, not even a specialist. However, when you step into the glaring light of publicity, you are expected to know this information and as you can see, there is not much tolerance for not having it. Honestly, that is not fair to you.

I feel certain that after this initial rocky start, you will be welcomed here. I will certainly welcome the opportunity to step down from the "expert pedestal" some here have granted me to yeild it to a true expert. We need it desperately! We hope you will stay around.

Frank


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Frankly Speaking_
However, when you step into the glaring light of publicity, you are expected to know this information and as you can see, there is not much tolerance for not having it. Honestly, that is not fair to you.
I disagree. On the vaccination thread, Dr Gordon publicly declared he was an expert on vaccines. He was challenged on that.

If any medical person declares they are an expert on anything, then they have to account for both personal inconsistencies, and any ignorance that may have accrued on their part, since a person who publicly takes on that position MUST be able to back it up. If they can not, then they are not, by definition, an expert.

Quote:

I feel certain that after this initial rocky start, you will be welcomed here.
Anyone who is prepared to be honest and open about what they know, and what they don't, is worth listening to.

You Frank, have proven yourself to be an "expert". That status has been earned. Likewise, anyone going to any public board, no matter whether they have letters after their name or not, will also be scrutinised. By their "fruits" they will be known.

I very much understand that for Dr Gordon to do that, puts him in a potentially dicey position. As Insider of old quickly found out.


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

"If any medical person declares they are an expert on anything, then they have to account for both personal inconsistencies, and any ignorance that may have accrued on their part, since a person who publicly takes on that position MUST be able to back it up. If they can not, then they are not, by definition, an expert."

Hi--

I got out my Webster's and found that this is not the definition of an expert.

I am a pediatric specialist and expert. I do *not* claim to know everything and may often display inconsistencies of thought and action. (That, btw, may be a definition of being human, but I haven't looked it up yet.)

(I have edited out a hastily written comment about Momtezuma's post. There is *no* logic to my complaining about tone and then being rude myself!)

I am not an expert on circumcision. I never claimed to be. I have opinions and some experience and have testified against at least one doc who did one without fulling informing the parents. But, I am most definitely not claiming to be an expert.

I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.

Jay


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## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.
*
I haven't posted on any of your threads, but please don't leave! I really like reading what you have to say and I think it's great that you are learning from us too.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

How on God's green earth can your presence here cause more harm than good?







You are not Ezzo. Now that guy....







:

Please stay and post.

More later, laundry







calling.


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## turquoise (Oct 30, 2002)

I promise, I did read all three pages here, but maybe I missed something.

I thought mostly OBs did circs unless there was some reason why they couldn't do it at the hospital then the baby had to be referred by the ped to a urologist. Isn't that the standard MO? By the time the ped sees the baby the damage is done. Right?

(what gets me is why drs specializing in women's organs should do surgery on a male organ







)









We need to get some OBs in here to politely







out of the "well if that's what you want"







approach. If my ob hadn't pulled that with me when I tried discussing circ with him, my son might be intact today.









oh well, that's just my opinion.

Welcome to the board Dr J


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## momto3boys (May 15, 2003)

Please by all means stay and post.

Everyone can learn alot from everyone here. You're opinion, education and years of experience as a pediatrician are very needed and appreciated.

TIA

Angela


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Turquoise:

Ob/Gyns do about 78% of the circumcisions. The irony of a physician who specializes only in the female reproductive organs performing male amputative surgery is certainly not lost on me. There are some OBs who refuse to perform circumcisions and there are some hospitals who don't allow their facilities to be used for routine circumcisions. This accounts for the approximately 15% of circumcisions performed by pediatricians and 7% performed by family practitioners. There are many, many pediatricians and family practitioners who do not perform circumcisions. I suspect they have seen the end results and complications more so than OB/GYNs and that colors their thinking. It would be rare for the OB/GYN to ever see his/her work again, even the screw ups.

Frank


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## turquoise (Oct 30, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Frankly Speaking_
*It would be rare for the OB/GYN to ever see his/her work again, even the screw ups.*
All the more reason to send them a few














bass akward system if you ask me.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*

This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?

*
I'm not quite sure to whom you are referring here. If I have come across to you as "nasty," then I apologize.

Please stay and post!


----------



## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:

*quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD

This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

I think the problem with msg boards is that facial expressions and tone of voice don't come into play here. Bluntness often gets confused for rudeness. IT's important to give people the benefit of the doubt and genuinely question their intent before becoming offended.

I hope you'll keep posting








peace


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## mom2tig99Nroo03 (Apr 24, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by turquoise_
*
I thought mostly OBs did circs unless there was some reason why they couldn't do it at the hospital then the baby had to be referred by the ped to a urologist. Isn't that the standard MO? By the time the ped sees the baby the damage is done. Right?

*
no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here.


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## Smilemomma (Nov 19, 2001)

Dr. Gordon, I am looking forward to your posts ... so you must stay to make them







. It's a demanding crowd, and certainly I agree that bluntness (or even the need to get a post out quickly because babe is calling) can come across as rudeness. Know that already you are a welcome part of this community, and I believe that you were even before you came ...

And I must stand beside you on the "expert" debate. As a dentist with over 25 years of experience in the dental field and over 8 with nursing babies, I would be considered by any court or otherwise to be an expert in my field.

Does that mean that I know all there is to know about any possible dental scenario? Of course not.

One of the beauties of a dental "practice" is just that. I am open to learning new things, and my patients teach me constantly, as you have already stated.

I am thinking that that is where you were coming from when you made that statement, and it was misconstrued. Frank, thanks for the back-up! I loved your analogy of the one organ, one issue. I will surely use that in the future!

My dictionary states it simply as "A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject" . Wow, that's several of us, Dr. Jay included surely.

Welcome, Dr. Jay!


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mom2tig99Nroo03_
*no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here.*
It depends on what state you are in. Where I am, it has to be done by an OB or Ped. urologist b/c it is considered a surgical procedure, and pediatricians aren't surgeons.


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

"no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here."

This seems to differ from one town to the next. In Los Angeles (and Santa Monica) I'd guess fewer than one in a hundred circumcisions are done by pediatricians.

In Phoenix, where my cousin practiced, the OBs did almost none of the surgeries.

Jay


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## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

Ob/Gyns do about 78% of the circumcisions.








who does the rest? frank, do you have stats-study on this somwhere online to see? just curious and would like to show someone the stats to prove
sorry to ot
thank you


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I think you should stay, Jay.

By the way, I have not been rude IMO. I have been discussing issues, raised firstly by you and then Frank.

You first defined yourself as an expert, and Frank then defined it again, prior to my post to him.

You originally defined the term in response to Candide's call on you, on a very valid point. However, his posts were deleted, and without them, the present discussion of what is an "expert" (as you define it yourself) and how that works out in the actuality of his query to you, has been reduced to a technicality only, for those who do not know what he said to you.

Even though Candide's posts were deleted, you might want to clarify the original issue on your own initiative, so that people can put your original comment in vaccination into its correct context.

With regard to the circumcision issue, I realised that you didn't know everything.

That is why I put up the pubmed reference for you. MRSA is a very significant issue, and one which grows in enormity every day. Parents need to be told that cellulitis or other MRSA problems are a very real and a difficult-to-treat preventable risk following circumcision.

Preventable, .....simply by not circumcising their child. Amongst all the other issues that Frank so eloquently expounds.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*"no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here."

This seems to differ from one town to the next. In Los Angeles (and Santa Monica) I'd guess fewer than one in a hundred circumcisions are done by pediatricians.

In Phoenix, where my cousin practiced, the OBs did almost none of the surgeries.

Jay*
*Interesting!* And in the hospitals where my kids did their internships, they did it and often mentioned the "a string of bad circumcisions done by the interns".


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Easy to mistake blunt emotional responses for rudeness. I must have thinner skin than I thought.

Candide's posts raised valid points and I don't know where they went. Those posts were a bit rude though.

Jay


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

I think this one may come the closest to telling you who does the most of what.

This survey is about the use of pain relief broken down by medical specialty and geography.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

"Of the respondents, 956 (54%) perform at least one circumcision per month (35% of PEDs; 60% of FPs; 70% of OBs). "

Some of the data really takes a critical thinker to figure out- for example- in the above quote they are measuring the percentages of circumcisers who circumcise at least one child a month... but it's also possible that the individual PEDs are only doing two, and the of OBs are doing 100... measuring the percentages of ACTUAL circumcisions as opposed to the percentage of circumcisers... would make the ratios much more unbalanced. Be warned that later the measurements of the use of pain relief are still tabulated in terms of circumcsisers and not circumcisions! (making the picture seem less grim than it actually is)

Also, for some OB scrutiny- this one is an old article which was printed in the official journal of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in 1978... interesting:

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/grimes/

Love Sarah


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*Easy to mistake blunt emotional responses for rudeness. I must have thinner skin than I thought.

Candide's posts raised valid points and I don't know where they went. Those posts were a bit rude though.

Jay*
My responses may have been plain speaking, but emotional they were not IMO. Confident, yes.

I don't think that Candide's posts were rude. I do think that he deserved answers to his questions.


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Thanks for staying and forgiving me if I have been rude. We often get expectant mamas on this board looking for advice about whether or not to circumcise. Having you here as a doc would add a tremendous amount to what this board has to offer those mamas!

As for the OB/ped question, both perform circs here in Utah. Unfortunately. Both my former ped and former OB seemed sadistically eager to cut my son.


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

and i'm sure some mohels did some of them


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD_
*
I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.

Jay*

What?!?!







No, please don't go. We want you here!


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## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

me too please stay Dr J & add your 2 cents here and on every board that you would like to visit here at mothering

the more the merrier







and it's not even bedtime yet in cal


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Vanna's Mom_
*







who does the rest? frank, do you have stats-study on this somwhere online to see? just curious and would like to show someone the stats to prove
sorry to ot
thank you*

To be honest, that is something I read sometime back and it stuck in my head. If I saved a link, it would take much searching. If it will save a boy, I will search it out for you.

The numbers were:
78% OB/GYNs
15% Pediatricians
7% Family Practitioners
100% total

Obviously, this total did not include ritual circumcisions, only those done by medical practitioners. I suspect there are also some done by urologists so obviously, this was only for circumcisions done in the neonatal stage or the percentage done by urologists was so small that it was not significant.

Frank


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

This is all I could find on that: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

Quote:

Of the respondents, 956 (54%) perform at least one circumcision per month (35% of PEDs; 60% of FPs; 70% of OBs). Of the physicians performing circumcisions, 45% use anesthesia (71% of PEDs; 56% of FPs; 25% of OBs). Of physicians using anesthesia, 85% use dorsal penile nerve block.

Quote:

In this dataset, 58%, 36%, and 5% of the practitioners who circumcise >10 infants per month were OBs, PEDs, FPs, respectively. Thus, because three quarters of OBs do not use anesthesia, there is a large number of infants who do not get anesthesia.


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## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

thank you!! I will pass that info along to my very preg neighbor







she likes to see numbers in print. much appreciate your time involved in posting this tonight


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

OB's push epidurals for laboring women but most don't at least numb a newborn baby before they cut away at his genitals. Wow that pisses me off.














What the hell, that sure is a double standard.


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Momtezuma--

I have forgotten Candide's questions and I don't understand your agenda.
I am being honest, contrite and respectful and yet you won't let up.

I don't know everything about circumcisions and am very pleased to listen to people who know more than I do.

I study vaccination the way Frank and you study circumcision. I still am a long, long way from knowing everything I need to know. Perhaps my calling myself an expert on vaccination is too immodest and instead I should call myself an avid student of the topic instead.

Nonetheless, could we please acknowledge that there's room on this board and in this discussion for some disagreement. I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery. You feel that we should emphasize the brutality of the procedure. Perhaps your way will work better than mine. I do hope that something works, though.

I notice that your screen name has not been registered for very long. Are you new to these boards or have you recently changed screen names? (Actually, I have a new screen name because I couldn't find the one I used a couple years ago!)

Jay


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## laidbackmomto2 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't post often, but am an avid reader here. I just wanted to wave hi to Dr. Jay from Canada







and commend you on adding your voice to this forum!

As you can already appreciate, the readship here is significantly passionate on issues that surround our children and their upbringing, medical and otherwise...which, it turn, should excite your interest as a pediatrician. I am extremely encouraged to see an MD willing to listen to, learn from and respond to parents in such a forum. Kudos to you, Jay!

Tougher skin will be a requirement, though.







And a sense of humour. As well as a willingness to look at this issue from ALL angles. I'm sure you will be an asset to this board.

Welcome!

Cindy

Lindsey (96/02/26)
Jason (00/06/08 )


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

glad to see you're still here. my dh will be immensely pleased to have another jewish non-circ'ing daddy here on the boards









(btw, i've seen an ob recently posting in another forum- gosh, bfing? i can't remember her screenname! anyway, if someone runs across her, perhaps they could gently steer her in this direction?...)

suse


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Frank is the expert on Circumcision. I never said anything about concentrating on the brutality side of circumcision. I am more interested in unnecessary nosocomial infections, and iatrogenic damage.

Your comment

Quote:

I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery.
is like saying we could decrease the vaccination rates, and therefore the autism/vaccine damage rates, by keeping open a dialogue with doctors who favour vaccination.

I once thought that a few centuries ago, and tried it too. But discovered that it was as fruitful as persuading Shell that Mobil's petrol was better.

My post count, speaks for itself.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Dear Dr. Jay,

Candide has a reputation around here for 'telling it like it is'. Confrontation is the name if the game around here, I'm afraid







. These Mama's (and/or Papas) don't pull punches!!

It's great to have you here, and I've been enjoying your posting.

I think some of us bristle a bit at the term 'expert' as we've spent so much time and effort researching and defending ourelves against self proclaimed experts who believe they know what's best for us and our children. It is the (and I quote) "Expert opinion" of my family doc that by not vaxing my 18 month old, I am being negligent as a parent and am putting him in harms way.

So, she's the expert and I'm just the little mama....who just happens to be finishing up her Master's degree in immunology...I am FAR from an expert.

IMHO there really is no such thing as an expert, any more than there is such a thing as 'normal' :LOL

Anyhow, I hope you'll stick around and post!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtezuma Tuatara_
*Frank is the expert on Circumcision.*










I'm not sure I'm qualified for that honor but thanks for the compliment!

Frank


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:

Your comment
quote:
'I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery'

is like saying we could decrease the vaccination rates, and therefore the autism/vaccine damage rates, by keeping open a dialogue with doctors who favour vaccination.
Yes! I am that naive and hopeful.

Jay


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Dr. Jay,

Thank you for sticking around through all this hullaballoo. We have a very nice feature here called "ignore" if anyone continually offends your senses.

You mentioned that you tend to listen a lot better if posts are conversational and not confrontational. I couldn't agree more. There's one particular topic on the message board that I am continually sucked into.... I give my opinion or thought, open for discussion, and it's followed by a lot of negative insinuation and name-calling. I feel your pain









Your willingness to learn more is truly refreshing. I worked as a pediatric assistant for a while and everything I would try to educate "The Doctor" on was waved away with a smirk and a shrug. Particularly the "do not retract a foreskin" issue







:

I have been reading your posts and I commend you for staying calm and friendly. Please stick around and use that there handy "ignore" feature if you must









Candice


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Dr. Jay-

Way back on page two of this thread you made a comment which I wanted to ask about... concerning testifying against at least one Dr. for not giving a person proper information before circumcising.

If all you know of me comes from this thread and what has been said about me here, you might have (IMHO) a very imperfect idea of how I approach this issue... some have said that I have a zero tolerance type of approach to parents who circumcise or who don't "get it" the moment I think they should. Actually that's far from what I think usually happens... and if I had a "MO" I think it would probably be that I encourage people to write letters.

My typical reasoning is... why am I telling you (parent) ANY of this? Why wasn't this told to you by the people who were offering it? Even if you are happy about your decisions, if you learned ANYTHING on an internet discussion board or a website- you should write a letter of complaint to the Dr, the hospital, the child birth educator, the state medical board and the insurance company who paid for it... sometimes I suggest that they contact a lawyer, I think I may have even one told a person to complain to the national chain bookstores which do not stock any circumcision books on the pregnancy bookshelves.

Here are some examples of me doing this:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ghlight=letter

"Write a letter of complaint to the hospital! I am not kidding- what you were exposed to could cause PTSD for YOU... not to mention those poor babies.

Complain Complain!! Hold them accountable. Express your outrage that this is being done.

Those medical students are ALSO being abused. there is no reason why they should be forced to be exposed to barbaric unethical cruelty. That is not medical training- that is conditioning to submit to the status quo of authority. medical students need to be encouraged to speak out, protest and refuse to take part in that. See if they have a school paper. Write a letter and encourage them to take a stand. Medical school costs enough without selling out your soul."

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ghlight=letter

"Hi Bev- Here is my idea- write a little letter to your ped. It would go along these lines"

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...light=complain

"So I just want to clarify- if you complain to the people in this story who let you down- remember, it's not the outcome you should be upset about- it's the fact that you were not INFORMED that this outcome was what you were consenting to. "

When you mentioned being involved in a case about misinformed consent- that caught my eye. I want to know about it! I want to know if these things only get persued when something goes AWFULLY wrong- do any people ever just come back and say- "Hey- that was wrong the way that was handled, no- no botch, but had I KNOWN- I would have made a different choice- what you did is malpractice, even if i was a perfect circumcision." If parents wrote to the state medical board or the state hospital regulatory commision- would their letters be taken seriously or would it be a big joke? Do they only pay attention when there are lawyers involved? When the penis looks mangled and not ideally turned inside out? Is it illegal to solicit surgery? How do you get consent for a circumcision without offering it? What happened in that case? Did it only get mentioned because something went wrong? How many OTHER misinformed consents had that Dr. taken?

A lot of questions I know- what can you say about that case and the scene at the recieving end of these letters that I'll assume hardly ever get written. Am I encouraging people to bark up a tree that will get them nowhere? Does anyone take these commnications to heart?

Love Sarah


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

here's a sticky question....... How would you talk to a parent who had circumcised their son? I have several friends in this category. I was surprised to see their circumcised sons during diaper changes. Obviously they think what they did was right. Or do they? If they come to realize that they made a mistake in "their" choice isn't it risking an intense amount of grief and regret? But wouldn't the thought to circumcise change dramatically if those who had done it said they didn't do the right thing?

I live in a small town where family physicians do the procedure. What if I gave all of them some NOCIRC information. I could at least start with my family doctor. Could I have an impact on all of the boys born in this town?







Wow.
What a thought. And I am sure I wouldn't have this thought if I lived in a larger town.

What would you suggest is the best way to access the doctors who practice here to really care about the information on the subject?

Ann


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:



Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtezuma Tuatara_
Frank is the expert on Circumcision.
_Originally posted by Frankly Speaking_









I'm not sure I'm qualified for that honor but thanks for the compliment! Frank
You do deserve it, and you're welcome.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Thank you Dr. Jay Gordon.

It is gratifying to see a pediatrician of your caliber taking the time to post on these boards.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I forgot, and want to add:

I know Dr. Gordon that you did your undergraduate work in Hebraic Studies. I applaud your stand on circumcision.

When I had my three sons, all of the Jewish men in my family were emphatic about the "great need" and "extreme importance" for me to circumcise my newborn son.

This admonition was from men who ate pork, cheeseburgers, watched the baseball play-offs on the High Holidays, and put up Christmas trees.

Notmeaning to be judgemental as I feel that everyone can and should observe G-d in their own way, but why should I have to do this to my son which is only one of the 613 commandments. Maybe that is the one commandment _I_ choose not to observe!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Juice:

I'm sad to report that apparently Dr. Gordon suffers from excessively thin skin and a very fragile ego and has elected to not be with us again.

Frank


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## Jay Gordon MD (Mar 12, 2004)

I am very much opposed to routine circumcision. My discussions with devoutly religious families are difficult.

I have recently given much more thought to the rather brutal nature of the surgery and need to step out a little further on this issue.

Jay


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jay Gordon, MD*
> 
> I am very much opposed to routine circumcision. My discussions with devoutly religious families are difficult.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for being willing to evolve on this topic. I loved your book Listening to Your Baby, except I felt that the chapter on circumcision did not go nearly far enough. If you happened to produce a revised edition with a much stronger stance against circumcision, then the book would be the perfect gift for all new parents!


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