# Those who DON'T do rewards and praise....how is it going?



## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

DH and I are thinking about getting the unconditional parenting DVD







We read a bit about it and watched the sample clips last night. First I'd ever heard about not praising or doing rewards. I like "stating what they did" rather than saying nothing. Saying nothing doesn't seem very "me", but I like acknowledging what they did and letting them be proud of themselves. I also liked stating how what they did made someone else feel (sharing a toy made their friend happy). I'm just kind of curious for those who are actually doing this...what is your child like? How are they doing? Are they even more generous and kind because they are not doing it for "praise" but because they want to? Also, how do you work compliments? Are they okay if they are genuine? I would like someone who is in the midst of doing this to let me know how it's turning out.....Thanks!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, mine is the most independent-thinking kid I know IRL.

This is an interesting question, because as I'm thinking about how to answer, I am comparing how DS is when home and when he just spent time with MIL. She is a rediculous over-praiser. Like, make you puke with the phoney praise.

There is a tangible difference in DS in the 2 environments. Don't know if I can explain it, but it's there. I can't really sort out what's actually there vs my exceptations and projections, but it seems to me very clear that DS's motivation changes around her. He turns into a performer, when he's just relaxed at home. (As a contrast, he does not change in this way around _my_ mother, who was a big Thomas Gordon PET fan.)

I might be able to articulate what I see regarding your specific questions, but I'm currntly still thinking...


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This is a tough question to answer because dd has been raised this way from day one and I have no idea what would be different if we did not raise her this way. I will say she is a pretty "normal" kid. We still have days when nothing seems to go right. But based on what others tell me, she is more social with adults than the normal kid. She looks at everyone as a potential friend and does not seem to have that "us and them"mentality that many kids have towards adults. She does not feel like she needs to "perform" and looks confused when people praise her for what she considers normal activity. She ialso handles all situations better than you average toddler. We explain what is going to happen at a place or function ahead of time just like we would an out of town guest or anyone else new to a situation. She takes it all in with amazing maturity and can handle anything from an orchestra concert to a dinner party with no problems. We do not have to praise, reward, threaten, etc.... to make her behave. Of course we have always been open and willing to leaving a place or rearranging a situation when she asks. So that could be more of a trust thing. She trusts us to help her be happy in a situation so she is less inclined to act out in an effort to relieve boredom or discomfort. she has conpassion for others. We have many family friends that are slightly younger than her. With a very simple explanation about how difficult it is for younger children to know how to share or communicate, dd learned on her won not to take toys or throw fits when the other child seems to be overstepping her bounds. She truly understands that they do not know better and need a little room to learn and grow. I am amazed at her daily.

I dunno. Everyone from the grandmothers to many mothers on this forum have stated that raising a child without rewards, praise, punishment, bribing, consequences, etc.... will result in a self-centered brat. My dd is only 2.75 so there is much more time for things to go awry. But so far it has been a great experience for everyone involved.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

We don't praise here








I do a lot of "hey, you stacked your blocks up like a wall!" type stuff. When he helps me, I say "thank you" and I try to be specific, but I don't always manage. He *really* likes to help me do whatever I'm doing, so obviously my not praising him hasn't lessened his desire to do helpful things








I also tell him how his actions affect others "It made Lily happy that you gave her the toy." He's surprisingly good at sharing. Though the only kid he really has ever played with is Lily, she's his same age. When she wants something he's playing with (she wants EVERYTHING he's playing with) she stands in front of him and yells. lol. So he hands it over.
(side note, He was playing with Lily and REFUSING to share with her a lot of the time. I was really confused as to where my sharing considerate kid went! I didn't realize until later that he was sharing everything but this one particular blue ball. He had been playing with it earlier and having a total blast!! He just really wanted to keep it, because it had been so much fun to play with.)
But, he doesn't seem to have any psychological issues with not being praised.







He doesn't seem to need to wait for my approval for anything he does. kwim? Except for his keyboard bangers game- every few seconds, he wants me to come over. Of course, that may be just because he wants me to name the things that pop up on the screen. I name them and he's happy.








Dp, mmmm, he might praise sometimes, but its always surrounded by more specific words, descriptions, telling ds how his actions fit others, etc. So the "value judgment" part is only a tiny part of that particular communication, and its not emphasized. kwim? And its not often. He's pretty on board with not praising (though he doesn't think that praise is as bad as AK sees it).

My family does praise. I printed off AK's 5 reasons not to praise. I tried to talk to them about it, and I told them that a big problem I had with praise was that it can make kids feel as though whatever it was they just did was *unexpected* and I didn't want him to feel like it was unexpected for him to be helpful. (that thought came from TCC. If you want the quote, I can copy it here). And I tried to tell them to NOT say "good job" or "good boy".
My grandma's answer to that? She'd say stuff like "good show!" and "I knew you'd help me throw the trash away"








Ah well. At least she's trying. A little bit. lol. It doesn't seem to affect him anyways. We don't see them a lot anymore (now that tax season is over) so I'm less concerned about it.

At this point, I can't imagine myself ever praising on a regular basis. Although I have noticed that I resort to judgemental phrases when I'm talking to older kids. Like if they show me a picture, I say something like "that's very pretty." I try to add something specific, but I guess I have a hard time knowing what to say to older kids! (older being 5-10 or so).

Now, the dogs, we do praise. lol. I realized the other day that I usually praise, when I caught myself "thanking" one of them for sitting and waiting for me. lol. But then, dogs aren't people, and don't have the same innate sociality for being able to behave acceptably in a human world. kwim? So, I dunno.

All in all, that was a really LONG way of saying that not praising is working out really well for us









eta: my main reason for not praising is that I think that behaviorism has no place in raising kids (I'm sure there are exceptions, sometimes). Kids are innately social, and I think it is to our advantage to build on THAT, and not teach them to think based on "what will happen to me, if I do x"


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
I dunno. Everyone from the grandmothers to many mothers on this forum have stated that raising a child without rewards, praise, punishment, bribing, consequences, etc.... will result in a self-centered brat. My dd is only 2.75 so there is much more time for things to go awry. But so far it has been a great experience for everyone involved.

I don't get that at all. AT ALL. It is such a silly idea, that I'm having a hard time putting the silliness of it all into words! lol.
Isn't the point of rewards, praise, punishments, etc (behaviorism) that it is either positive or negative FOR THE CHILD? So the child bases his future decisions (at least that's the hope of the people who do it) on how *s/he* will end up being affected by it. "ooh, I got a candy bar the last time I shared my toys. I'll share again, because I'll get another one."
ummm....how is that not being self centered? not being focused on the benefit/consequence to oneself?
Now, sharing because it makes the other kids happy...THAT is not a self centered brat by any stretch of the imagination.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Becky, I'm right with ya on that! It's so backwards.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee*
How are they doing? Are they even more generous and kind because they are not doing it for "praise" but because they want to? Also, how do you work compliments? Are they okay if they are genuine? I would like someone who is in the midst of doing this to let me know how it's turning out.....Thanks!









We (well I) strive not to praise or judge, but it's a hard road. The judging comes easier than the not praising - that's like the worse-case scenario.

Anyway, I wanted to share something I learned from a wise-mother here. She talked about "outcome-based" parenting. She helped me move to a place where I don't do what I do because I think it will help DC or generate a specific outcome. I do it because it feels like the right thing to do for me. Because it feels authentic and real. My child might still be what some would call a selfish brat (I don't think she it, but she might end up that way) because she has her own life course to lead.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My DD will be 4 soon, and I have to tell you that pretty much every day she does things that just make my heart swell with pride. These things come from a place of empathy, and _internal motivation_ and it makes me feel so validated in using a praise/punishment-free style of parenting.

Her ability to empathize is particularly touching. A couple weeks ago we were getting out of the car and I explained that DS was going to ride in the umbrella stroller and she would walk. She really loves riding in strollers and she began to cry and was upset that he was going in it and not her. Meanwhile, I'm putting DS in the stroller and he drops his cracker on the ground and it breaks. In the middle of crying, DD says " oh no! DS dropped his cracker! mama, may I have another cracker to give to DS?" (all this while still sobbing about the stroller). This is a child who isn't distracted by worries over what will happen if she doesn't stop crying, etc.

When we are having a conflict, she is becoming excellent at suggesting workable solutions. Yesterday she was at the park with a friend and friend's kite. When it came time to move to another field, DD wanted to carry the kite. I explained we had to ask the girl, since it's hers, and the girl said that she wanted to carry it. DD began to cry, and while I was explaining that it was the other girl's kite, DD says "maybe I could help her carry it?" and then asks the girl (without me suggesting she do that), who enthusiastically says "yes" and DD says to me "I had a solution, mama!".









We try to frame most conflicts as a problem that needs solving and we both make suggestions until we come up with something that is _mutually_ agreeable (sometimes for safety reasons, the rule is the rule, and she is okay with that). I can see that now DD is, all on her own, viewing problems this way and actively looking for solutions. I am SO proud of this!

When accidents happen she isn't flustered or phased as if expecting to get into trouble, she isn't focussing on what is going to happen to HER, she instead focusses on a solution. We were at a friend's house last week and she had to go poop. Instead of coming to get me, she just went into the bathroom, but something happened (I'm guessing she was too late) and poop ended up smeared all over the toilet and on her clothes. Her little friend came to get me, and when I saw it I was quite shocked (not the least bit angry, of course, but she'd never had anything like this happen, and in my friend's bathroom!), but DD was just SO calm. She was like "uh oh, mama". I got her off the pot, cleaned her up and then when I went to get some cleaning stuff from my friend, DD is in there with toilet paper trying to wipe the poop off. Again, her demeanor was totally calm and just "well, shit happens" and we smiled about it being "so crazy!" while she helped me clean it up (frankly, I wasn't going to ask her for help b/c it was such a big job)...I was just really proud. I think kids who are used to punishment and praise would be more concerned about what was going to happen to them, particularly since DD had only just met these people that day.

Sure, she still has her days, and she still can meltdown every now and then, but this can almost always be attributed to hunger, fatigue, etc. More and more I'm seeing spontaneous behaviours in her that I credit with this style of discipline and I'm just so proud!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I don't know if this will be the answer you want, but...I read Kohn and was moderately convinced, and for a while we were doing no praise (we have never done rewards). However, I have to confess that have reintroduced praise for certain things. DD has a mild large motor skills delay, in combination with a perfectionist nature, and she was very obviously avoiding certain things, such as climbing. We had her evaluated, and the evaluators suggested that she was going to keep avoiding acquiring these skills unless we worked a bit harder with her. We started using a lot more encouragement and mild doses of genuine praise ("Wow!! You tried to go up that slide! You're working so hard! I'm proud!") in these particular situations only. DD's confidence has increased, as have her abilities.

I certainly feel we praise less than 95% of American parents, but eliminating it altogether (even things like saying "You did it!" in genuine joy and pleasure) has not felt quite right to me.

All this said, I think minimizing meaningless praise has certainly had good results. I already see other toddlers DD's age who seem to constantly be looking to their parents whenever they do anything, unsure as to whether it is "good" or "bad" till told.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
Anyway, I wanted to share something I learned from a wise-mother here. She talked about "outcome-based" parenting. She helped me move to a place where I don't do what I do because I think it will help DC or generate a specific outcome. I do it because it feels like the right thing to do for me. Because it feels authentic and real. My child might still be what some would call a selfish brat (I don't think she it, but she might end up that way) because she has her own life course to lead.









I think this is important. I don't think it is my job to mold my kids. I believe they are who they are and I want to help them grow, thrive, learn, and be who they are to the fullest.

I do try to aviod empty praise, rewards, and judgments. I do that because it seems like the right thing to do, coming from a place of trying to help them be who they are, not because I will get well-behaved kids or whatever. They are great kids though, very responsible, funny, unique individuals.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

What do you guys do when dc does something they shouldn't, and you're disappointed?

For instance, last night in bed there was a full glass on the nightstand. Dd wanted to pick it up (it's an opaque drinking glass, so she couldn't tell by looking at it that there was liquid inside). I said 'oh no. That's full of juice. If you pick it up it will spill on the bed.' She was fine with that, but then later when my head was turned she picked it up anyway, spilling all over both of us and the bedding.

I instinctively said her name in a disapproving tone: "Dd...I asked you not to pick that up. Now look, it's all over the bed! Come on, let's clean it up."

I wasn't angry and didn't at all raise my voice or act threatening. That's not at all my style and we just don't act that way with her. But I still felt - yucky - about it.

She's so sensitive that she internalizes even mild reprobation like that. She gets this blank look on her face and just stares off into space without responding. It's almost like you can imagine her little mind tossing around the idea: 'I'm bad. Mama is disappointed in me'







Then she started acting out a little afterward, which seems to be her pattern. It's almost like I have to persuade her that she's NOT a bad girl again before she can move on.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Blessed, I would have said something close to what you said, but without the "I asked you not to." Imo, that's probably the part that caused her to feel badly about it.
My ds is really sensitive to tone of voice too. But he doesn't seem too bothered when I say something like "Now there's a big mess. Let's get a towel to clean it up." Or even "Oh, Keagan. You spilled the water! Lets clean it up."
I think they can learn from that much, without being reminded that they failed to follow instructions too. kwim?

I guess what I'm thinking is, that they don't need to hear (or think) that we are disappointed. All they need to know is that "x" wasn't socially acceptable.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Thanks, Becky. I have grown to really respect and look forward to your opinions on parenting.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

In the juice situation, the spilled juice would have been enough "punishment" for dd. She wants to be a big person and is disappointed in herself when she spills something ot whatever. I guess I would just say "opps, spilled juice, lets get something to clean it up". Saying "I told you....." is sort of redundant at that point. I am guessing most kids would see that you were right without saying anything. I am also guessing that most kids would listen next time. I am also one to give a lot of info. when the glass was first discussed, I would mention that it was really full and hard to see since you could not see inside. I would also probably hand her the cup or move it because I know that if dd wanted it she would probably attempt to get it anyway. But hindsight is always 20/20 and I have gotten myself into those situations and really just helping is much better than getting angry. They get the point.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

loraxc: what you describe is not what I consider "praise" in the Alfie sense. I certainly express my own feelings when they are strong, such as pride. And it's not like I don't say anything when DD does well. I just try hard to phrase things in terms of what she did, and how she must feel. I try to avoid 'good job" type phrases, or praising situations that are everyday. And when I do praise, I try to focus on what she did and her perception of it, etc.

blessed: I guess if that happened to me I'd be blaming myself for leaving a full glass right by DD and expecting her not to pick it up. I don't think what you said was wrong. It's very close to what I would have said, but my DD isn't as sensitive as yours that way. Perhaps you could just strive to uplift your tone. Sort of like "uh oh, the juice spilled, what can we do to fix this?" in an upbeat tone of voice. Then while cleaning up I might talk about glasses spilling, etc.

One thing I do try to avoid (and it's hard) is expressing concerns in terms of her ability. In other words, I wouldn't say "if you pick it up you'll spill it" b/c I don't want her doubting herself, ability, etc. Instead I would say "I'm worried it might spill and that would be hard to clean up".


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Thanks, Becky. I have grown to really respect and look forward to your opinions on parenting.









Awww, you made my day


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Pigelt--so you think, then, that "I'm proud of you!" is not exactly praise? I've wondered. I say it when I AM proud--it isn't forced.

I also do wonder about tone of voice. Sometimes the words I use are not "praise" per se, but my ton is obviously full of approval and joy.

I guess my take on this is that being thoughtful with praise vs. mindlessly doling it out all the time, constantly thinking of it as "good" or "effective," is probably half the battle. I hope so.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Thanks Yooper and Piglet. Those are good points. I especially was struck by the one about phrasing about her capabilities, Piglet. I'll pay more attention to that.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
What do you guys do when dc does something they shouldn't, and you're disappointed?

What do I do, or what would I like to do?

I do pretty much what you did. I'd like to do what Deva and Yooper suggested.









It's a process! Change doesn't happen overnight.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I use praise...both TO PRAISE and to discipline myself. Good words beat bad in my book. Example: Yesterday DS2 REALLY made me angry cuz of something he said. Now, he was ouside and running around the house while he said it. He's a REALLY fast runner. The comment offended me on a personal level & wasn't something that was "wrong." Now I HAD to speak (yes, I have that problem, inability to shut up...) so instead of critisizing him I said "Wow, B, you run soooooooo fast...awesome!!" Haha...yes, I do stuff like that to keep my mouth in check...







: . I don't think kids can ever get enough praise and, personally, when I was a kid & heard "GOOD GIRL!!" I never thought "wow, how superficial..." I was just VERY happy!!








Just my feelings on the subject...


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## rachelmarie (Mar 21, 2005)

subbing...

I'm really interested in this topic. I just checked out Unconditional Parenting at the library today, and I'm a few pages in.

Something that has been bothering me (and I don't mean to hijack the thread, I'd just like some thoughts on this) is that it seems dh is not as into this idea as I am. Dh tends to overreact to things like when ds spills a glass of water (that happened last night). I think dh thinks a lot of what ds does that causes something negative to happen is on purpose, whereas I think he is just a young toddler who is learning about cause and effect and he certainly does not do things to be "bad." Oh, and by overreact I mean saying things like "What are you doing?!" in a louder than normal voice.

I'm wondering how to get dh on board with unconditional parenting specifically in situations where ds does something he isn't supposed to do. How does it work in your families? Are your dp's in agreement with you about it?

Hope I made some sense here, and again sorry if I'm hijacking. It just seems an okay place to ask that without starting a separate thread.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Judesmama, I just got the UP dvd in the mail today.

DH can learn a lot and vege out with a remote, all at the same time!









I hope he watches it tonight!








Will report back with results...


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I thought it was funny the first time ds (at age 3) visited a new dentist that he was impervious to their attempts at bribery. He just didn't understand it at all. The assistant was telling him he could pick out a ball after they were done and he was ready to skip ahead to the ball part. Hmm I didn't word that right. I automatically changed it to an unconditional phrase







. She actually said "IF you do suchandsuch, you can pick out a ball."


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Piglet's post about her older daughter sounds a lot like my older son (4.5). Very helpful, loving, and empathetic around his baby brother (11 mo). Everyone kept saying, "Just wait! It'll come--he'll be jealous of the baby and hit and not share and blah blah blah." It hasn't happened yet. He was pretty rough on us right at first, but always generous and kind with his brother.

Also, re. praise--I think it's the mindless/meaningless praise that's designed to manipulate behavior that's a problem. Genuine joy leveled at someone for accomplishing something, or sincere celebration doesn't seem, to me, to be the same thing. And it's been a while since I read UP, but doesn't Kohn make that distinction?

Oh, and there's no lying to us--that's quite nice. My kid doesn't try to twist stuff around to manipulate OUR reaction--to either get a reward or get out of trouble.

ETA: The bribes at Grandma's don't work--just like 4evermom's! LOL He's sooo not impressed by the, "Here's a special, special cup if you sit at the table to drink." Blorf.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
Anyway, I wanted to share something I learned from a wise-mother here. She talked about "outcome-based" parenting. She helped me move to a place where I don't do what I do because I think it will help DC or generate a specific outcome. I do it because it feels like the right thing to do for me. Because it feels authentic and real. My child might still be what some would call a selfish brat (I don't think she it, but she might end up that way) because she has her own life course to lead.

ITA


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Judesmama, keep reading, and keep sharing interesting parts with your dh. I bet it'll sink in over time, especially if he's already mostly gd.
Share ideas and thoughts with him, on developmentally appropriate behaviors and try to point out whenever possible that ds had positive intentions, it just didn't come out that way


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*

One thing I do try to avoid (and it's hard) is expressing concerns in terms of her ability. In other words, I wouldn't say "if you pick it up you'll spill it" b/c I don't want her doubting herself, ability, etc. Instead I would say "I'm worried it might spill and that would be hard to clean up".

interesting, i try to avoid this as well, but for a different reason. if i were to say 'it will spill', and she were to pick it up, and not spill it, then she might start doubting my judgement. also, 'it will spill' is a self-fullfiling prophecy, and focuses their attention on the negative outcome.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Yeah, I noticed myself saying things like "...because you'll fall" or "...because you'll spill it" and it suddenly struck me one day, what sort of message am I sending here? So now I try to be aware of it. Constantly hearing "you'll fail" (which is what the core message is) can't help but affect a child's self-esteem.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Kohn distinguishes between types of praise. I think what he's against (as I am too) is praise used to reinforce certain behaviours. But I think it's important to let our children know when we feel particularly proud, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, so long as it's done sparingly and, above all, honestly. As in, I am truly proud of your accomplishment, not "hey I hope you do that again and again and maybe if I say I'm proud you will".


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## BlissfullyLoving (May 4, 2006)

I am just curious how you remove those praise phrases from your speech. I intented to never praise, but I catch myself using "good job" or something equally generic. I quickly try to follow up with a specific observation. I do it a lot with other people's children. I am wondering if anyone had any tips or techniques they used to help break the habit.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Despite never being a fan of praise, I still occasionally find myself about to utter the dreaded "good job". When I feel it coming on, I quickly find a way to comment about what is going on by pointing out a fact. Like when dd finally mastered the play structure at the playground and got to the top, I wanted to yell "Good job!" but instead yelled "you made it all the way to the top, what can you see up there?" Or when she mastered people drawing I commented on how their hair was really curly or their eyes a nice shade of orange. Dd has always found pride in herself when she accomplishes something and really does not need the external praise. But she does always like to share and elaborate.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

We have our moments with DD - she is a toddler after all







- but I think she's a great kid. I have a hard time keeping DH on board. He likes to say, "Good job!" for every little thing and "That's not nice!" when she hits the dog and "You're so smart!" whenever she knows something, but he works a lot, so it's mostly me and her. And he does try....usually..... So she's mostly in a praise-free home, and she's definitely never punished, bribed, threatened or rewarded.

And I do have to say that whenever we're in public, she's so cooperative. It's weird, because she's NOT really that cooperative at home or when we're alone at a park or something, but no one would ever believe that. When we're with others she's friendly (although a little shy, as normal for her age) she doesn't touch everything in stores, she shares toys with other little kids (this one amazes me at her age - only 24 months!), she doesn't hit other kids, she doesn't snatch things from them, she has a lot of empathy.

I'm astounded at her level of emotional understanding. We recently went camping with my very punitive in-laws. One 6-year-old niece was put in time out and told to sit far away from everyone else, facing the other direction. DD and I were not with everyone else, so we could see her sad face. She wasn't even crying, but from 20 feet away, just by looking at her, DD could tell she was upset. She said, "R sad. Give her hug." She went over and hugged and kissed her. She then got her own little camp chair and drug it over to her cousin and sat next to her, patting her leg. It was the sweetest thing and I was so proud. And I believe she is that way because we've talked about people being sad, what makes them sad, what makes them happy, how to help others feel better when they're sad, etc. She has a lot of emotional intelligence, because we talk about _how our actions make others feel_, rather than _what our actions say about US_ as people, kwim?


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## elsanne (Mar 10, 2004)

: I am fascinated!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

One thing that I know I do not get is what to do when dd (5 yo) asks "Do you like my drawing". I usually say things like "Oh, you chose some very nice colours, and I see that you put a lot of effort into drawing the princess dress" or "what do you like best in this drawing?" but she can really insist "Yes, but do you like it?" I try not to praise, but it is hard, because she is praised and indeed punished at school.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
She then got her own little camp chair and drug it over to her cousin and sat next to her, patting her leg...

That's wonderful!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
One thing that I know I do not get is what to do when dd (5 yo) asks "Do you like my drawing". I usually say things like "Oh, you chose some very nice colours, and I see that you put a lot of effort into drawing the princess dress" or "what do you like best in this drawing?" but she can really insist "Yes, but do you like it?" I try not to praise, but it is hard, because she is praised and indeed punished at school.

I do not really consider it praise to honestly answer a question. If dd asked me if I liked her drawing (or whatever) I would definately tell her. Saying that you like soemthing is different that "good job". Like when I make a new dinner, dh might say he likes it (or doesn't). That is good info for me. I need to know if he liked it so I know whether to make it again. He might like it or not based on the ingredients and might have nothing to do with my cooking skill. However, I would not be amused with a sugary "good job" upon the first bite. But "I like it" can become praise if it it used constantly and used specifically to condition a child to a certain behavior. It is a subtle difference. It does not feel subtle to me but I find it subtle to explain to people.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
I do not really consider it praise to honestly answer a question. If dd asked me if I liked her drawing (or whatever) I would definately tell her. Saying that you like soemthing is different that "good job". Like when I make a new dinner, dh might say he likes it (or doesn't). That is good info for me. I need to know if he liked it so I know whether to make it again. He might like it or not based on the ingredients and might have nothing to do with my cooking skill. However, I would not be amused with a sugary "good job" upon the first bite. But "I like it" can become praise if it it used constantly and used specifically to condition a child to a certain behavior. It is a subtle difference. It does not feel subtle to me but I find it subtle to explain to people.

I agree, and I totally see the difference there.
Even if it is "praise" I don't think we should avoid it simply because of its label. What matters is the effect on dc, and how THEY perceive it.
I'd not want to avoid answering a direct question that ds asked of me. I'd just want to make sure I am honest, and try to be specific.


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## rachelmarie (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Judesmama, I just got the UP dvd in the mail today.

DH can learn a lot and vege out with a remote, all at the same time!











I hope he watches it tonight!







Will report back with results...

That's a good point! I'll be interested to know what you and your dh think about it.


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## rachelmarie (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
Judesmama, keep reading, and keep sharing interesting parts with your dh. I bet it'll sink in over time, especially if he's already mostly gd.
Share ideas and thoughts with him, on developmentally appropriate behaviors and try to point out whenever possible that ds had positive intentions, it just didn't come out that way









He is mostly gd already, which I'm really thankful for. I think sharing what I read and everything is a great idea. He isn't much of a reader (doesn't really have time) and I've shared with him about not vaxing and anything else interesting I come across. I guess before I got the book, UP, I was trying to articulate my own feelings about rewards, praise, punishment, etc. but wasn't really able to in a way that didn't sound like I was nagging him. I think by saying, "What I just read is really interesting. Listen to this..." it will get my point across without it sounding like I'm picking apart the way he parents. It'll be just me relaying what I've just read in a book.









Thanks for your thoughtful response, Deva33mommy!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

So we were in the store the other night and my 3 yo insisted in pushing the cart and she insisted on doing where I couldn't see her. She actually told me to go away.
So I did and pretty soon I heard a pretty loud crash, not far from where 2 employees were talking. The 3 yo had crashed into something with the cart, but she backed up and calmly walked over to what she had knocked over and put it back up. All very confidently and calmly, just like any of us would do if we knocked something over.

But the store person was just SO amazed. She commented on DD - "Oh she's going to put it back up. That's so cute. GOOD JOB!" My 3 yo just looked at her ...? And she felt the need to explain - "You put it back up - Good Job!"

It was kind of funny to me. My DD had no idea what the big deal was.

I was so proud of the whole thing. She wasn't scared or worried when she knocked into the thing. She didn't call for me to help her. She just went around a picked it up. And after that she was content to stick close to me for the rest of the trip.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

Saying nothing doesn't seem very "me",
saying nothing can be very powerful, it can really give your child space to think and articulate. it *is* very hard but i have been practicing it to amazing results.

i have learned a lot through avoiding praise, finding more creative and expansive ways to engage, interact, acknowledge ... and remembering i dont need to have the last word, or any word.


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

I have been working hard to unlearn daycare-ease and replace it with a more sincere expression of gratitude, but I do still hear "that was great!" popping out of my mouth for no real reason from time to time...

I think that the biggest part of the praise thing for me (and I've been trying to be an Alfie Kohn sort of teacher as well as an Alfie Kohn kind of parent) is authenticity. I don't think it's necessary to hold back when you are genuinely impressed by your child. It's okay to glow. It's okay to explain to your child how things make you feel. Just as long as you both know that parenting isn't all about you.

I like what someone else said about being solutions oriented. How can we solve this together? is the tone we take with equals, and kids really respect that. Similarly, there's a level of comfortable praise between equals, and it's different than the sort of praise usually given to kids. When I "praise" my spouse or my co-workers, I'm not saying "I, the great judge of all that is right and good, have decided that what you have done is worthy of me," but often, that's the way we praise kids.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *malibusunny*
"I, the great judge of all that is right and good, have decided that what you have done is worthy of me," but often, that's the way we praise kids.

I love that








good job!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, our daughter is going to be a year old soon (*sob* time goes so fast) and we have rarely praised her. That is not to say we don't react with genuine enthusiasm or pride when she does something new or impressive to us. I think tone of voice and honest observation goes a long way -- like when she began walking with her push toy thingie -- we said things like "You're walking with it! I see you!" and that was enough for her....she was beaming because she was proud of _herself_ and all she wanted was our acknowledgement. She could see that we were happy/proud (whatever) so we didn't need to do the whole "good job" thing.

I am not against all praise, but I am very against manipulative and generic praise. I am against taking pride away from a child and taking ownership of it yourself (collective you)....or manipulating a situation so your child will act in the way you want them too.

As some of the other posters, I like honest observations, genuine shows of emotion, and asking questions. Even though our daughter is not verbal yet, she responds very well to this approach -- "I see you stood up all by yourself! You like cruising along the tables don't you!" type things...

I am not trying to give my daughter a shameless plug or anything but I have to say people are always impressed with her *behavior* and her willingness to help out and to be patient etc.

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we try to be very genuine with her and we treat her as an equal in all ways (relative to an 11 month old, no she doesn't take the car out for spins lol)...

I cringe a little bit when people tell her "gooooood joooooobb" for things like turning a page in a book --- which is something she LOVES to do on her own just for the sake of it... I have spoken to people I am close to about it (my mom and mil etc) but for the people who aren't in her life on a regular basis, I just model how my dh and I act with her and they *usually* pick up on it...

It is working very well for us









eta: we don't do rewards or punishments at all either


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
Everyone from the grandmothers to many mothers on this forum have stated that raising a child without rewards, praise, punishment, bribing, consequences, etc.... will result in a self-centered brat. My dd is only 2.75 so there is much more time for things to go awry. But so far it has been a great experience for everyone involved.

I haven't read all of the posts yet. But I am curious as to why someone would think that raising a child without rewards and bribes would result in the child being self-centered? I don't want to start a debate -- I am just wondering if I am missing something? I thought one of the benefits of not using bribes and rewards was to avoid self-centeredness -- among numerous other things. Thanks!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties*
I haven't read all of the posts yet. But I am curious as to why someone would think that raising a child without rewards and bribes would result in the child being self-centered? I don't want to start a debate -- I am just wondering if I am missing something? I thought one of the benefits of not using bribes and rewards was to avoid self-centeredness -- among numerous other things. Thanks!

Not to answer for yooper, but in my experience the people who hold these views also seem like the type of parents and people who believe that a child has to know who is *boss* in a relationship...and it isn't the child if you catch my drift. I don't believe that, but many do --- I feel that rewards, punishments, bribes, praise (usually manipulative) are all ways to create a dominant/submissive relationship with a child -- the child being the powerless one of course.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties*
I haven't read all of the posts yet. But I am curious as to why someone would think that raising a child without rewards and bribes would result in the child being self-centered? I don't want to start a debate -- I am just wondering if I am missing something? I thought one of the benefits of not using bribes and rewards was to avoid self-centeredness -- among numerous other things. Thanks!

CC answered this well. But I would also add that there is this really sad idea out there that children should be punished, rewarded, bribed, etc.... because in the "real world" they will HAVE to do things they don't want to and should learn now. If they don't, they will grow up to think the entire world revolves around them. And if the only way to make them learn is to punish/reward them then it is our duty as parents to administer it. What I disagree with is that it is the "only way".

I fully acknowledge that as an adult, I do things that I do not find pleasurable. However, I still choose to do them because combined with other things in my life they help me to be as happy and comfortable as possible (like go to work, do dishes, etc....). Dd is almost 3 and already, despite not being made to, she does things she might not want to in order to work towards a greater goal. Like she does not always want to share and cooperate with her younger friends, but she knows that doing so results in a happier and longer play session so she chooses to do it. She also cares about her friends and does not want to see them sad and frustrated. The idea that a child must be MADE to do things in order to learn that "sometimes we do things we don't want to" is not true in my case. And that is where Alfie Kohn and other anti-punishment/reward people think as well.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

For some reason I didn't think about this. I always heard the opposite reaction, that if you do not praise the child will have low self esteem. Thank you for pointing me in the other direction.

Does anyone have problems coming up with the "correct" phrasing of how you feel? I am new to this approach, and for example when I try to express how I feel rather than yelling, my post popular phrase is to say to my 6.5 y/o, "Gabriela, when you do that it makes mommy fustrtated." I am sort of stuck with this one. Or I might say, "Gabriela you can choose to practice the piano now or practice it after you finish playing."

Am I doing this right? Is this productive in how I am doing it? I am trying to encourage her to clean up, practice the piano, get ready for bed, etc. Thank you for any insight. I will also read this thread more thoroughly.

BTW, I haven't read UC yet, but I have read Liberated Parents, Liberated Children.

Regina


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties*
For some reason I didn't think about this. I always heard the opposite reaction, that if you do not praise the child will have low self esteem. Thank you for pointing me in the other direction.

Does anyone have problems coming up with the "correct" phrasing of how you feel? I am new to this approach, and for example when I try to express how I feel rather than yelling, my post popular phrase is to say to my 6.5 y/o, "Gabriela, when you do that it makes mommy fustrtated." I am sort of stuck with this one. Or I might say, "Gabriela you can choose to practice the piano now or practice it after you finish playing."

Am I doing this right? Is this productive in how I am doing it? I am trying to encourage her to clean up, practice the piano, get ready for bed, etc. Thank you for any insight. I will also read this thread more thoroughly.

BTW, I haven't read UC yet, but I have read Liberated Parents, Liberated Children.

Regina

Well, with the first example, I would take a slightly different approach. Instead of phrasing it in such a way that her actions (or lack of) can determine how you feel -- I would put it in the specific instance, while still being honest about my feelings, without phrasing it as if I feel a certain way because of something she did or didn't do. It's hard to articulate, and some people may think it is just semantics, but I think it is very important.

For example, instead of "When you do that it makes mommy frustrated." I would say something more specific and own my feelings about it -- such as:

"When you make a mess and don't clean it up I feel myself becoming frustrated because I don't like cleaning up after you all the time. I would really like it if you helped me clean up." --- or "I would me more than happy to help you clean up" (or whatever)

It may seem long winded, or even like I am saying the same thing you said, but I do think it is different because I am saying that I often become frustrated when ____ happens, not that someone is *making* me feel ____. Also, it is giving reasoning that I do think a 6 year old can understand (even if not in practice) that it doesn't feel great to have to clean up after someone else all the time....and it also gives a resolution, helping clean up together.

I think that saying someone *makes* you feel a certain way strikes me as manipulative. I am not saying that is your intent at all or that you are manipulating her -- I just don't care for that wording, because it seems to me that when we do that, it is putting a really heavy load on a child... to send the message that an action they take or don't take has the power to make or break your emotions....kwim??

With the piano thing, I think if not practicing the piano in your home is not an option, then it sounds reasonable to give options that you are okay with. I probably would make it an option to practice or not. I would explain to her that lessons cost money and I feel it is a bit disrespectful of the teacher's time to not practice. I would bring up the possibility of stopping lessons for a few months if she has lost desire to play and revisit it if and when she is more interested (not as a punishment, but if she doesn't want to practice or play etc)....

If that is not an option in your home, again, I would offer as many choices as possible but be honest with her that you do expect her to practice. In other words, don't frame it as if she has the option of not practicing if that is not an option you are willing to give her...

Good luck


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I did a search for a post where Scubamama had posted a link to a NVC site. I didn't save it, and I should have. I can't find it now- can anyone else find it? It was relatively recently I believe.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
I do not really consider it praise to honestly answer a question. If dd asked me if I liked her drawing (or whatever) I would definately tell her. Saying that you like soemthing is different that "good job". Like when I make a new dinner, dh might say he likes it (or doesn't). That is good info for me. I need to know if he liked it so I know whether to make it again. He might like it or not based on the ingredients and might have nothing to do with my cooking skill. However, I would not be amused with a sugary "good job" upon the first bite. But "I like it" can become praise if it it used constantly and used specifically to condition a child to a certain behavior. It is a subtle difference. It does not feel subtle to me but I find it subtle to explain to people.

Yooper and Devamommy I am sorry I did not see your answer to my question. What you said really relieves me because I felt I just could not avoid this kind of praise. I do not feel good about what I do, though. Dd went to an art workshop recently where the lady told me:
- to refrain from choosing among dd drawings the one I like best (to hang in the kitchen for example) let her choose
- to refrain from interpreting her drawings: what did you draw? is this a horse? in fact, she explained that kids do not have at all the ability to draw what they see at that age and so kids that are conditioned (like my daughter) to draw a happy family or themselves will merely memorize shapes and hand movements that they will repeat to obtain the desired object on paper. That is really very sad. She said kids should be encouraged to concentrate more on the technical quality of the drawing like fill well in the coloured parts - do not draw on things you've already drawn - are you happy with what you did
I find that very difficult to do


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## 3happygirls (Feb 4, 2006)

So, can someone explain the basic "rules to live by" when trying to do this? (not praise, bribe, threaten, reward). Obviously, I'm new to this whole thing. But I KNOW I hate it when I feel like I'm threatening, bribing, etc. I also wanted to gag yesterday when I told my girls "thank-you for playing so well together when we had ______ over to play" and one of them looked at me and said, "Oh, what do I get for a special treat"?







She was "so proud" of herself, and has obviously gotten the message that that's the only way I show her that I'M proud of her. But, I'm confused, too. What about encouraging a child? What about letting them know that they LIGHT UP MY WORLD when I see them being compassionate, caring, kind to someone else. What about letting them know that I like it when they make good choices. I hear everyone saying that certain types of praise is "okay"...aren't we supposed to uplift and encourage our children? I know the difference between fake adoration and genuine appreciation and I want to teach my girls this, too. But, point me in the right direction. What are some of the Best and MOST PRATICAL books on the subject? Thanks!


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

My son is nine months old, so I don't have a lot of experience with this yet. But I read "UP" when he was just born and it made soooo much sense. I bought the DVD, too, so DH would be on board (and he is pretty much even with my just talking about the book), but haven't seen it yet.

We do try to practice UP even at this young age, though...when ds does something new we say, "You figured that out, didn't you?" or just try not to say much of anything. It's funny once you're aware of it how obnoxious other people are with the praise.

My one issue is my 13-year old stepdaughter, who has Down Syndrome. Every other sentence out of her mouth when she's playing with her little brother is "Good job!" We've tried to explain that we don't want to say that to Henry, but how do you get that through to someone who is on a four-year-old level mentally, and who grew up that way?

The other night sd was saying "Good job!" to ds (for drinking out of his sippy) and I gently reminded her that we're trying not to say that to him. A few minutes later she said, "Good job, buddy!" and I reminded her again. She looked at me with exasperation and replied, "I said, 'Good job, _buddy_.'"


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

This is an interesting idea ... I've read Alfie Kohn's ideas before in reference to education and homeschooling, but I hadn't thought of them in a child-rearing context. Does anyone have some good web links on this subject? I honestly don't have a lot of time to read books these days.

I'm also curious about how far those of you who practice this go in terms of "no praise." I have a 13-month-old, and I know I praise him a lot, but to me it is not a serious thing and not usually something I do to produce a certain kind of behavior. It's more a silly commentary on his play, if that makes sense. Like, he grabs his toes, and I say, "Yay, toes! Aren't you cool!" Rather than things like "You are such a good boy for being quiet in the car." Is that praise? Is there something wrong with it?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Pookel,
http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.html choose the "articles" link.

There is a difference between praise and positive feedback. Most of us who don't praise (or don't praise much) DO constantly give feedback- tell dc how their actions affect others, etc. "thanks for helping me pick up your toys. It makes it go faster, and now we can do something else" or we describe what we see "Hey! You built that tower up really high!"
We just don't *evaluate* what dc do. "You did a good job helping" I trust that he is able to judge for himself what he wants to do or not. What's worth doing or not.

(OK, I gotta admit I copied that from an old post of mine. But I don't think I could have written a new post any better







)


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mama*
The other night sd was saying "Good job!" to ds (for drinking out of his sippy) and I gently reminded her that we're trying not to say that to him. A few minutes later she said, "Good job, buddy!" and I reminded her again. She looked at me with exasperation and replied, "I said, 'Good job, _buddy_.'"









That's funny








Perhaps it would help to tell her what types of phrases would be preferable. Like "You did it yourself!" or something like that. I always tell adults that I'd prefer they be more specific in their praise. That way the "judgement" part of it is a bit lost in the descriptive part of it. I dunno if she would understand and be able to do that? So maybe tell her to say, in addition to "good job" "You are drinking from your sippy cup"


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

The old standard "I feel when you because" phrases are actually really helpful with young children. Kids often do not see their role in their own emotions-- they see emotions as just dropped on them, forced upon them by situations. So, when you express to your child "I feel frustrated when you pour your cereal on the floor because it takes time to clean it up and I'd rather spend that time doing something fun" it tells the child where the emotion comes from-- not from the action (spilling cereal) but from your reaction (knowing you'll have to miss out on something fun while it is cleaned up). Don't be surprised if the child's answer isn't "i'm sorry" but rather "then just leave it on the floor and we'll go play" but that's a teachable moment, too. You can explain why we can't just leave cereal on the floor, etc. It's a chance to teach science and values all in one.







I think it's also a great time to then clean it up together so that you can get to the fun thing faster, rather than make just the child clean it up, if that's your reason for frustration, because that's the best way to solve your frustration. If your reason, as given, is "because sweeping hurts my back" then that's a different story.









Sunny (who has a co-teacher that says "you must clean it up, you spilled it" and then wonders why the students refuse to pitch in and help one another "as a community")


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I did a search for a post where Scubamama had posted a link to a NVC site. I didn't save it, and I should have. I can't find it now- can anyone else find it? It was relatively recently I believe.

Ok, my ears were burning.









www.CNVC.org

Search "parenting" ath the site; it has some interesting articles. I especially like the booklets "Raising Children Compassionately" and "Parenting From the Heart". They are about $6 each and worth every penny. Buy duplicates to give to family. They are very persuasive and insightfully empowering.

Pat


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

You know, something else I was thinking about the whole "not praising/rewarding/punishing will result in a spoiled kid"
It seems that so many people think that kids will *choose* to be "bad" unless they are made (forced) to be "good."
Does that make sense?


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