# i am in tears right now



## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

almost every night when i need to put Max in the sling to rock him to sleep, Ada starts acting out. she KNOWS he will be asleep in minutes. she KNOWS that the moment i put him down i will be spending 1-on-1 with her, reading, playing, whatever she wants.

i don't understand what she gets from screaming and rolling on the floor when i rock him to sleep?

i have a huge headache now. i just spent 30 min trying to reason with her. she is screaming. she says she wants me to rock her in the sling. i say SURE, in 10 minutes, i will rock you, i will cuddle, i will nurse you. she screams she is a baby, and she wants it NOW, and she won't have any time to go into the sling later.

in a moment of calm, she said herself that 'it is hard for mommy when one baby is falling asleep, and another one screaming', and proceeded to scream.

i think i need to sit here and type, or i will explode. max is sooooooo sleepy, and she keeps waking him up.

she is not out of control. she takes breaks, and then screams again that she is a baby, she can't wait, she won't have the time to nurse later (dh's excuse).

i am just bouncing DS on the excercise ball and typing, and crying, and she is on the floor, kicking and screaming. i have nowhere to walk away from her. i can't reason with her anymore. this drives me insane. she is 4 in a month. in the last month she has been wanting to be a baby, including non-stop nursing, and i have been pretty accommodating. but this screaming when i am bouncing DS to sleep just makes me insane.

she says she is a baby, and as a baby she cannot wait. she prefers to scream. i try to parent unconditionally, this is my goal, and i do, most of the time. i won't punish her for this (or for anything, for this matter. we do not punish). i know she needs me, needs something from me. i have tried, in desperation in the past, conditional statements such as 'if you keep on screaming, i won't feel like reading to you, i will be too tired and too irritated'. which i realise is conditional, but it is also the truth, i am not inventing this. god knows, i don't feel like reading to her after she kicks me and screams. but this never works either. today i am trying to avoid this. i keep telling her that i will rock her and nurse her, and put her down to bed with me.

i am on the verge of losing it. she just keeps waking him up every 3 minutes. i know she is stressed (we are moving soon, and everybody is stressed) but this has been like this for months, and is only escalating. i just want to toss her into the empty bedroom and lock her up. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Oh







, Mama. I have dealt with the same things from my dc and I too, just sat and cried, from anger adn frustration and from sadness, that they are feeling so lost and sad that they must act out in this way. I don't have any answers, but I know how sad and angry and frustrated you are and I couldn't just read and run.





















You are a wonderful Mommy.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

yeah, tears of total helplessness and anger.

i just put Max on the bed, and now bouncing Ada in the moby, as she is nursing. she has screamed for total of 45 minutes. i am trying to feel compassion towards her. but honestly, right now, all i feel is exasperation and anger, especially since she'd lost her latch, and her nursing is like nails on a chalkboard. i know i will calm down in minutes. thanks for listening. i just hope she falls asleep now. because it might also happen that she will nurse for 40 minutes and then announce that she wants to eat, and play, and read THEN. and i think THEN i will be totally bonkers


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

dude, it's hard. i have two with a similar age gap-about 2.5 years apart. is your dh around during bedtime??

can you give her something like a snack or paints or something she really really really really enjoys to keep her occupied for the few minutes?

my dp travels for work and when ds was really small it was so hard on me getting them to bed alone.

you are an awesome mama.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

i am glad you got max to sleep. ugh so stressful. my heart really goes out to you. it will pass, though. someday...


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *delicious*
dude, it's hard. i have two with a similar age gap-about 2.5 years apart. is your dh around during bedtime??

can you give her something like a snack or paints or something she really really really really enjoys to keep her occupied for the few minutes?

my dp travels for work and when ds was really small it was so hard on me getting them to bed alone.

you are an awesome mama.

thanks. dh is rarely around at bedtime, and right now he is away on a trip. i have been offering her things to do, but she is very stubborn, and kept refusing. if she sets her mind on something, it is almost impossible to divert. anything i offered, she'd say she was a baby, and babies can't do that, and she can only scream, and she can't wait.









gosh, i am still fuming







but getting better. it seems she is falling asleep.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

What helped the most for me, was putting my 3 yr old to bed before the baby.
Also, creating a specific routine/transition time so it's less confusing for her.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

nak

I'm sorry. I understand - I've been there.

Hope you get some good suggestions here.

I find myself using conditional statements at bedtime more than any other time. Its hard.

would a timer help? I use one to show story time - ie we're switching lights off in x minutes, so we need to get ready for bed or we're running into story time. It works with my 3 yo as she can conceptualise the time factor.

But she also has a talent for 'accidentally' waking ds from naps. Even though she then gets no 1:1 time as he's then awake.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

oh, anna,
i am so sorry that things are so rough. our children are very close in age and i understand the difficulty in compassionately meeting the needs of the older one who is (seeming to be intentionally) undermining the needs of the younger.

i don't have advice. i don't have insight. i do have support to lend you and to tell you that i admire your steadfastness to AP, because goodness knows i have a hard time being GD and AP in times like those you are describing.

hang in there. i am hoping things will settle.

is ada able to identify anything else that might help her to wait *before* you start getting max ready to sleep? could she come up with a game-plan that she thinks might work out for all of you?

take care, mama.


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

I feel the same way you do. I have a little girl who is 15 months and I just gave birth 3 weeks almost 4 weeks ago, and my daughter act out so bad. She's never been like this. I just want to cry to get my anger out, but if she see me cry she crys, and I don't want that. I just wish she could understand, that soon enough she will have a playmate and mommy loves her with all her heart.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What helped the most for me, was putting my 3 yr old to bed before the baby.
Also, creating a specific routine/transition time so it's less confusing for her.

how would you do this? logistics? Max would keep on crawling over her, and potentially getting cranky as he is sleepy himself. i don't think she will ever fall asleep with him around. she still needs me to lie down with her to fall asleep.

i think after we move, this might work, but right now dh comes home very late, and she keeps herself up to wait for him, so she goes to bed way later than Max, and she wakes up later than him as well. i hope to be able to put them to bed around the same time after we move, as dh will be around at bedtimes.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
But she also has a talent for 'accidentally' waking ds from naps. Even though she then gets no 1:1 time as he's then awake.









yes, Ada does this too. i don't get it, as she loses her 1:1. but she hates when he goes for a nap. and it is not like she is playing with him either. i think it is the idea that i rock him to sleep, and it overrides the potential of spending time with me 20 min later


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Proudly AP*
is ada able to identify anything else that might help her to wait *before* you start getting max ready to sleep? could she come up with a game-plan that she thinks might work out for all of you?

take care, mama.









i try to do this. today nothing worked. she kept saying that nothing but nursing in the sling would calm her down









and i saw how sleepy max was, so i knew it would be a quick one for him. but she would not wait.









normally i let her watch a video, or do yoga with a dvd, (after letting her choose what she wants to do) while i bounce him. and most of the time she is back in 5 minutes...

i think i am calm now.









thanks


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Msalise*
I feel the same way you do. I have a little girl who is 15 months and I just gave birth 3 weeks almost 4 weeks ago, and my daughter act out so bad. She's never been like this. I just want to cry to get my anger out, but if she see me cry she crys, and I don't want that. I just wish she could understand, that soon enough she will have a playmate and mommy loves her with all her heart.

















, this is so tough. only 14 months apart, it is like two newborns. hang in there. Max is 16 months, and i can't imagine having another newborn. though Ada insists she is a newborn







so maybe my situation is not as different. i am tempted to tell her that if she is a newborn, all her plamobil goes in storage







but she is so strong willed, she might as well trade her playmobil for on demand nursing









hang in there, mama.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I don't mean to sound harsh, just wanted to point out that if 3 yr old 'feels' like they are not getting enough attention, chances are they are not.

For me, part of AP is validating our children's feelings.

If you said to your friend, "I feel lonely and need someone to pay attention to me, right now!"
and your friend said, "No, you are wrong. You are not lonely and you do not need my attention right now. Please wait."

How will you trust that friend to truly be there for you when you need them, kwim?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
how would you do this? logistics?

I have a specific bedtime routine.

Or, if everyone co-sleeps, you can just all sleep at the same time. That has worked in the past for me, as well.
Too many children and too small a bed for us, now.


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## TinyBabyBean (Oct 18, 2003)

I am wondering if laying down with both of them and nursing them both to sleep at the same time can be done?
Mine are 3 1/2 years old and 21 months and this is what I usually have to do, if it is an extra trying time I put in a DVD they both like so they nurse while watching then go to sleep.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I don't mean to sound harsh, just wanted to point out that if 3 yr old 'feels' like they are not getting enough attention, chances are they are not.

For me, part of AP is validating our children's feelings.

If you said to your friend, "I feel lonely and need someone to pay attention to me, right now!"
and your friend said, "No, you are wrong. You are not lonely and you do not need my attention right now. Please wait."

How will you trust that friend to truly be there for you when you need them, kwim?

i never said i was not validating her feelings. for 35 minutes, i stroked her kicking leg, repeating 'i know you want to be in the sling, i know it is frustrating that Max is in there, i know you feel like a real baby, and i will get to you as soon as Max falls asleep. how do you want me to help you out now? do you want me to read to you? do you want a video? do you want your playdoh? i know you are upset. i wish i could put you in the sling right now... and so on and so on.'

i never told her that she was wrong to feel like a baby, or wrong to need me. but the realities are that she has to wait, and often Max has to wait.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I don't mean to sound harsh, just wanted to point out that if 3 yr old 'feels' like they are not getting enough attention, chances are they are not.

For me, part of AP is validating our children's feelings.

If you said to your friend, "I feel lonely and need someone to pay attention to me, right now!"
and your friend said, "No, you are wrong. You are not lonely and you do not need my attention right now. Please wait."

How will you trust that friend to truly be there for you when you need them, kwim?

True. However, when mine were at this stage, it's all about having mommy all to themselves at bedtime. They WANT 1:1 time, and are fighting desperately for it. I want to GIVE them what they want/need, but they (unintentionally) are undermining the very thing that I'm working to give them. I tried putting my girls (14 months apart) down at the same time, and ended up with two screaming children. I would *validate* continuously, while meeting the needs of the child who needed me most at that moment. Sometimes, it was the younger one, sometimes it was the middle child, and sometimes it was the oldest.

And there is a difference between saying "You do not need my attention right now, you are wrong" and saying "I understand that you really want mommy to put the baby down and nurse you. I will do that just as soon as I am able. I love you."


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*







, this is so tough. only 14 months apart, it is like two newborns. hang in there. Max is 16 months, and i can't imagine having another newborn. though Ada insists she is a newborn







so maybe my situation is not as different. i am tempted to tell her that if she is a newborn, all her plamobil goes in storage







but she is so strong willed, she might as well trade her playmobil for on demand nursing









hang in there, mama.

Yes it is. My little girl so very strong willed to. VERY willed, just like her Momma, and I'm trying to break habits from her, and it's just not working.







I don't know what to do! You keep up the good work, and keep your head up!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
i never said i was not validating her feelings.

I am sorry. I should have stated it more clearly.
A child who wants attention, almost always needs that attention.
I was just trying to give you some ideas I thought might help so you are not reaching the point of having your child kicking and screaming.

I'll leave. Good luck and I hope you find a solution to your problem and get a good nights sleep.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

Or, if everyone co-sleeps, you can just all sleep at the same time. That has worked in the past for me, as well.
Too many children and too small a bed for us, now.









yes, everyone co-sleeps. i still don't see how this works that 'we can just all sleep at the same time'. this is what dh says. he goes to bed, and promptly falls asleep


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Just off the cuff here - I don't have 2 kiddos - but is there a way to sling both? I can envision putting DD in a wrap or MT on your back, and DS in a front carry...?

Would she be happy and feel included in that arrangement?








to all of you!


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

yeah. it works for kids who just nurse to sleep, but if they need to be bounced or walked to sleep, you can't really put them both to sleep at the same time. well...i think it would be v difficult. lol.

there were times when i could nurse my two both to sleep at the same time, but for a long time i could only bounce ds to sleep.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I am sorry. I should have stated it more clearly.
A child who wants attention, almost always needs that attention.
I was just trying to give you some ideas I thought might help so you are not reaching the point of having your child kicking and screaming.

I'll leave. Good luck and I hope you find a solution to your problem and get a good nights sleep.










_A child who wants attention, almost always needs that attention._ -- i totally agree.

what ideas where you trying to give me? your original reply to me was:

_What helped the most for me, was putting my 3 yr old to bed before the baby.
Also, creating a specific routine/transition time so it's less confusing for her._

and i asked you about the logistics, because it has not worked for us, so i was curious. DD is a night owl, and she likes to stay up late, while the baby is sleepy around 8PM. but i am still looking for ideas.

as for a routine, we do have it. before i rock Max we all read a book together (try to) and then i rock Max, and she choses what quiet activity she wants to do. even after she choses her activity, she almost always comes to me and complains









and your second post to me was: I _don't mean to sound harsh, just wanted to point out that if 3 yr old 'feels' like they are not getting enough attention, chances are they are not.

For me, part of AP is validating our children's feelings.

If you said to your friend, "I feel lonely and need someone to pay attention to me, right now!"
and your friend said, "No, you are wrong. You are not lonely and you do not need my attention right now. Please wait."

How will you trust that friend to truly be there for you when you need them, kwim?_

i agree with what you have to say, yet it is not a response to my situation.

good night.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Just off the cuff here - I don't have 2 kiddos - but is there a way to sling both? I can envision putting DD in a wrap or MT on your back, and DS in a front carry...?

Would she be happy and feel included in that arrangement?








to all of you!

she is 4!!!! i'd break my back with 60 + lb on me









and even if i could physically do it, knowing her, i am positive she would not be happy with this.

if she were younger, like the other poster with a 15 months and a newborn, i would certainly be slinging both, if the 15m was happy with that.


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

You said that your husband comes home late right?!? My husbands leave early and comes home around 5, but however he is on call every single day, and if he leaves and doesn't come home before bed time, I have a heck of a time getting her down. How do you get your baby down if daddy isn't home?


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
she is 4!!!! i'd break my back with 60 + lb on me









and even if i could physically do it, knowing her, i am positive she would not be happy with this.

if she were younger, like the other poster with a 15 months and a newborn, i would certainly be slinging both, if the 15m was happy with that.

*My daughter would have a problem with that. She likes to be with momm and no one else, or daddy and no one else. I know how you feel, seems like everything you try nothing please them.*


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *delicious*
yeah. it works for kids who just nurse to sleep, but if they need to be bounced or walked to sleep, you can't really put them both to sleep at the same time. well...i think it would be v difficult. lol.

there were times when i could nurse my two both to sleep at the same time, but for a long time i could only bounce ds to sleep.

yeah. sometimes, whem max is really, really tired, he would nurse to sleep, but it is stressful, as he keeps crawling away, and Ada is still acting out as i can't nurse her lying on my side, only on my back, with my back slightly towards her, and she wants me to nurse her with my back to Max







so she keeps wanting to wrestle max, max is crawling around like a zombie, and if i resort to this, rather than bouncing max, this means that i am exhausted beyond belief and can't even get up









yeah...


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Msalise*
You said that your husband comes home late right?!? My husbands leave early and comes home around 5, but however he is on call every single day, and if he leaves and doesn't come home before bed time, I have a heck of a time getting her down. How do you get your baby down if daddy isn't home?

this is a tough one. my husband is not home most of the nights. but my kids have more of an age difference. when Max was just newborn, he slept to much, so he would fall asleep in the sling, and i would do bedtime with Ada, with him in the sling -- we would brush teeth, read, play, and i would put her down. sometimes i'd get max out of the sling, nurse him down again, and then nurse Ada down, or sometimes she would fall asleep with me just stroking her back. i wonder if this might work with you -- having the baby in the sling during the bedtime routine with DD?







s

when Max was a bit older, around 5 months, i think, i'd put him in front of a baby Einstein video in a swing, while putting Ada to bed. i hated leaving him in front of the TV, but i did not see any other option. he was happy, though. i think if he was not happy, i would have come up with something else









now it is easier, in many ways, if only Ada would co-operate a bit more. on the nights that she co-operates it is sooooooooooooooo easy. and we have such a great time together after Max is asleep. i hope she starts seeing the connection


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

deleted as double posted


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
deleted as double posted

I just don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm doing all that. Sheesh! You keep up your good job! Hang in there, stay in there and just be calm with her!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm sorry things are so rough.







I have zero experience with 2 nurslings, so take this with a grain of salt.

Does Max nurse while you're rocking him? Would he respond well to being tied on your back and bounced? Does Ada always want to nurse while Max is being rocked or does she just want you to do something with her? Can you do something quietly with her while rocking Max - maybe something special that you do only at that time? Maybe you all could tell a story quietly together?

Have you talked about it during the day? Maybe say something like, "Ada, when I'm rocking Max, I need for us to do something quietly together. Can you help me think of something special we can do so that Max can get to sleep and we can have alone time?" Maybe if you spend a few days having a conversation like that multiple times throughout the day, it will get easier?

I'm sure this is all probably stuff you've tried and not helping, but I hate that you're having such a hard time and just wanted to offer *something*.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

What a tough evening. At least it sounds like its coming to an end (hopefully Max won't wake up and Ada will go to sleep herself pretty soon). Actually, I found myself getting angry at Ada, too, just from reading your post... I think you are amazing to be able to hang in there with this very difficult situation.

It also sounds like you might just need to hang in there a bit longer, til you move and have some help getting them to sleep. It definitely sounds like a two-person job.

I wasn't sure how many more nights you have left until you move, but was wondering if it would be worth it to try to help Max learn another way to fall asleep. I wonder if you had a double stroller and took them both for an evening walk, if Max could fall asleep that way? Then Ada would also be getting your attention at the same time and she wouldn't be jealous watching him being rocked to sleep while she felt left out. Sometimes I can't get our DD to sleep nursing/rocking but she will fall asleep if the stroller rolls along long enough... just a thought.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I don't have two babies, so I can't help there. Dh and I took turns with one, and we were still exhausted. Throw in the move and I'd be ready to scream too. Have you tried any Rescue Remedy for her? Or Elm, for yourself? The Elm is a Bach Flower remedy for 'when you feel temporarily overwhelmed with responsibilities'. It helped me immensely when we were trying to keep a house clean enough to sell....with a toddler, remodelling the new house, two mortgages and no buyers, and poison ivy and whooping cough to boot.

I have found that our son LOVEs when I tell stories about when I was a little girl, school, friends, special books, shows, camping, travels, grandma, the pet dog, fish, cheerleading stories, whatever. I get lost in the story and he is rapt with attention. Or, if we look at baby photos of him on the computer, and I tell about the pictures. You might be able to do that, nurse and have the older child engaged this way. Is there some special nightime treat that could help to occupy the older one, like a popsicle or popcorn and a show together while you nursed the baby?

It sounds really hard. Our son is least "big" when he is tired and needs his mama. Dh was able to develop his own bedtime routine, eventually. Could your dh try to do this with the baby? I know that until age 2, only I put ds to sleep, and only with nursing. Finally, we started incorporating more sleep associations and dh is now the primary bedtime companion. The No Cry Sleep Solution helped me to learn more techniques than just nursing to sleep.

Maybe everyone going for a walk? Movement really helps our son to recenter. Or dh taking one of them out in a stroller or carrier to settle for the night? And many nights, we relied on a car ride to encourage sleep.









Pat


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I've done the ring sling on my back and the wrap on my front. It's not easy, but you do what you have to do. Of course, that only works if the one on my back has already nursed and isn't demanding to do so again just because she knows her sister is.







:

I mostly do bedtime by myself, dh is deployed a lot and even when he's home, he works mostly nights, so it's just me. Honestly, there was a time when ds, who was 4, almost 5 at the time, kept coming in and waking up whichever dd I was nursing down at that time and ask a question.....in his normal voice. And so I'd ask him to leave so I could get her down, and he would, but then he'd be back in a few minutes later...and this went on for over 2 hours one night, until I told him that because I was so exhausted from nursing for so long, I didn't have any energy left to read him his stories. Boy, did I get flamed here for that one.







: But, when you're in the situation, and it's just you, and you're doing the best you can....sometimes, we aren't perfect. and that's okay too.


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## threebabies (Nov 27, 2005)

oh bedtime....worst part of our day. I remember when my SIL's kids were small (she had 3 ages 4 and under), they were sooooo demanding. I (who had no kids of my own at the time) thought they were, well brats for lack of a better word. She was very AP and at the time I thought she was crazy and that "those kids just need more discipline" (i've since come around). At the time it did seem as though my SIL was going crazy...tired all the time, frazzled. But she stuck with her gd and her kids are now 12, 11, 9 and 3 and they are the best kids. They are so sweet, so responsible. They get along so well and the older three take such good care of their baby sister. They have an amazing, peaceful family life. ANyway, when things get rough at our house I try, try, try to think of them and that someday it will all pay off. Just try to get through it one night at a time and remember that "this too shall pass."


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

I only have one 15 month old, so I'm not speaking from experience, but...

Could you engage your dd in problem-solving during the day (as others have said) but reframe it as ds's problem that she could help with? Could she become part of ds's bedtime routine, so she doesn't feel left out of the family unit? I know many people engage older siblings when the younger one is a newborn (fetching diapers or wipes), and that seems to help with jealousy. Maybe dd could help ds fall asleep? Even if it's a token gesture like turning lights off or closing curtains or turning on a soft cd (or whatever wouldn't end up making the bedtime routine harder), maybe she could feel like she's part of it. Team effort sort of thing.

Just an idea from someone who's never had a 3 year old!


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Bedtimes are tough sometimes ...









Do you specifically rock Max so as not to nurse him? Are you willing to nurse him to sleep?

We've generally done well with limiting the last half-hour or so before bed to books. After teeth and all that stuff, sitting down on the bed (aka the floor) with books. So the smallest one is nursing while I'm reading and usually falls asleep during the reading ...

Can the bigger one be satisfied with getting mom for quiet time while nursing the baby? Again, that's if nursing is an option here.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

hugs annabanana...

I've BTDT, I know how it is. You aren't doing anything wrong, and it sounds like you've tried everything you can, such as allowing her to do an activity of her choice, etc...

All I can tell you is that this WILL pass. Hang in there. Your feelings of anger and frustration and the tears, they are normal. It's part of the package and I promise you it won't last forever.

You are doing a great job.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm going to second Scubamama's No Cry Sleep Solution idea, as she's the one who turned me onto it too. Thanks Pat!

Also, I don't want this to sound harsh, but there are things about AP that I'm not sure really work for one parent. I mean, it's based on the idea that you're giving children what they naturally crave and need, and they crave and need this kind of parenting because of the thousands of years that we all lived tribally, without electricity, with work that could always be done with a child on your back, and with lots of other adults and older children around to pick up the slack. I don't know if this is the right board for this, but I think that there sometimes has to be compromise between that ideal, and how most Americans really live. Maybe it's time for Ada to get her own bed, or at least her own mattress in your room. I would weigh 45 minutes of crying and screaming against what you think the negative impact will be of her falling asleep on her own would be, especially since you say your dh is frequently gone in the evenings.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

A couple of thoughts -- probably kind of random

Sibling jealousy can increase a lot when babies begin to crawl. Then the baby needs more of your time/attention, they get into the older child's stuff and they're just more of a "pain" for the older child. so, this is a particularly tough time for her right now. (Not that it makes your life any easier.)

Would any of the playful parenting stuff -- especially earlier in the day help her to feel more connected so there's more of a 'reserve' when you have to spend time with Max? What about role playing bedtime - she can be the parent, you can be her (and then vice versa) -- or play it out with dolls. That sometimes helps our son get a handle on strong emotions.

Keep repeating to yourself: "There are two of them and one of me. Sometimes one is going to have to wait." You sound like you're doing the best you can in a difficult situation. Humans really weren't meant to be raising kids in isolation!

Finally, when our kids get unreasonable, I quit trying to reason with them. I pick a sympathetic phrase and keep repeating it like a mantra. And sometimes just repeating back to them what they are saying "You want to be a baby." is the best. So - validate the feelings, but sometimes I find that talking less, rather than more, helps our son calm down. He has a hard time processing language when he's really upset, and so it doesn't do any good. (This is hard for me, I'm very verbal.







)


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

It sounds like a rough night and I'm sure that just getting to the boards and posting about it has helped. It always helps me.







I have two myself, 3.5 and 4m, so I can see this type of thing happening in the future. We have just been going through some changes that has resulted in my older dd nursing at bedtime again. I weaned her during my pregnancy, but the need has arrised for her. So I have yet to even understand what the new bed time routine will be. It has otherwise been about making the baby wait untill all of dd needs are met, brushing teeth, washing hands and face, pj's all that. Then once she is ready for bed, we all climb in together, and I nurse the baby while dd leans against me and cuddles. Then when dd falls asleep, if the baby is not down yet I will get up with him and take care of his needs. This works, for now. Once the baby gets mobile I can see there maybe more challenges.








HUGS to you, you sound like a super mama. I'm sure that you will work things out.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
...and this went on for over 2 hours one night, until I told him that because I was so exhausted from nursing for so long, I didn't have any energy left to read him his stories. Boy, did I get flamed here for that one.







: But, when you're in the situation, and it's just you, and you're doing the best you can....sometimes, we aren't perfect. and that's okay too.










You are only human, for goodness sake. People can judge and flame all they want, but they are not in your situation at that moment. How does anyone know for sure, that, given the same circumstances, they would not have done the same?

I think that many mamas on here are way too tough on themselves. Yes, we strive to do our best for our kids, but I can almost guarantee that one incident is not going to ruin your child's psyche for life, Mama.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Bedtimes are tough sometimes ...









Do you specifically rock Max so as not to nurse him? Are you willing to nurse him to sleep?

We've generally done well with limiting the last half-hour or so before bed to books. After teeth and all that stuff, sitting down on the bed (aka the floor) with books. So the smallest one is nursing while I'm reading and usually falls asleep during the reading ...

Can the bigger one be satisfied with getting mom for quiet time while nursing the baby? Again, that's if nursing is an option here.

oh, i both rock and nurse -- he nurses in the sling. it is just the fastest way, i learned. if i just put him down to nurse, it takes him about 1 hour to wind down. and if i bounce him, he nurses for about 5 minutes, and then is fast asleep in another 5 or less.

if i were to nurse DS while reading to Ada, he simply would not nurse. he can go the whole day without nursing, if he is distracted. if it were Ada, in this age, she would have nursed through anything


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
I think that many mamas on here are way too tough on themselves. Yes, we strive to do our best for our kids, but I can almost guarantee that one incident is not going to ruin your child's psyche for life, Mama.

Thank you. I have no doubt that my son is secure in his knowledge of my love. One night of no stories is not going to scar him. I was relating that story in the hopes of giving other mamas some encouragement, that we're not perfect and we shouldn't expect ourselves to be.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

I read most of the posts, not all, and i do not and never have had two nurslings, so I havent been there, but it sounds very very stressfull.

However, my kiddos share a room. They are 2 and 4 and go to bed at the same time. One thing that works well for us is an in depth bedtime routine with a picture "schedule". You said Ada is almost 4. Well, my four year old was having a very hard time with bedtime because he didnt like lights out time, even though there are two nightlights in their room lighting up the room. So, what I did was made a picture chart for him. Also, what can help is a more in depth never changing bedtime routine. A longer routine gives older children time to mentally prepare for bedtime. so we do jammies, teeth, drink of water, feed the fish, stories, adn lights out.

Now, because ds was so against bedtime, I would say ok, time to get ready for bed. Avery, check the chart adn tell me what is first. And he would.. then i would say ok, now what do we do. This really helped take the pressure of me... it is what it is, even if i made it, im no longer telling hiim what is next, he checks himself. Then at lights out he says, oh i dont like this part, and I say, I know but that is what is next.

So, for you, draw out a picture chart (with words too) that has maybe Jammies, teeth, bedtime activity (movie, books, game), nursing and bedtime... so thats 5 things you can draw for her to prepare. If there are another 1 or 2 things you can add, add them to give her more time to prepare... maybe a snack before jammies..

Also, Is it possible to not bounce the baby so you can read to her while you nurse? I know it sounds as if he is mobile, can you bounce him while she holds a book and read her the pages or talk to her about them while you nurse? Can you all watch a movie together or a show while you nurse. It sounds like she needs to be near you while you are tending to him, can you make that possible?

I cant possibly totally understand, but I wanted to try and help. I think one thing that will help is the picture chart, and involve her in making it. Ask her if there is something she would like to add in her bedtime routine that you will do every night. Do this with her at another time, during the day or in the morning. We have one for morning and night on the door, because we have had a hard time getting out the door in the morning too. Ever since i made these charts, life is sooo much easier in my house.


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

Hello,you sound so stressed out.I am so sorry. I cant really give an advice or anything cause i havent even had my baby yet but i do want to share something my mom use to do.
We had a sleepy time box( one of those plastic crates with the lid) that we could only get out when mom was getting the baby down for the night.We never knew before we opened the box what was inside.Sometimes stickers,water colors,playdough,a video,little toys ( stuff like that) she also put a snack in it, juice , fruit,peanut butter and crakers.We knew we didnt get to look inthe box until she was with the baby.I can remember opening the box while mom was rocking Sabrina,we were always excited about what was inside and what snack we would have.
You seem like a great mom.Both your kids are every lucky to have you.
Kaitlin


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Dd doesn't have younger siblings, and didn't go through a stretch of expressing that she wanted to be a baby and have my attention, so this may or may not be useful....

However, when she was going on 4, she went through a real phase of full-on miserable, yelling unhappy freak-outs, where she would take off all her clothes and just shout. She would have been shouting expletives, if she'd known any!







Just really, really angry. We were at a loss, and a number of these occurred at bedtime, whether or not she was overtired.

What seemed to help, surprisingly, was to leave her be. I tried rubbing her back, validating her feelings, making suggestions, talking with her about it at other times - none of that helped. What helped was for me or her dad to just calmly tell her that we were going to be in the other room, and to come see us if she wanted to, and then to leave. One night we actually went to bed, while she was unclothed and shouting up a storm in her room (we left her light on for her). Eventually she subsided, came to our room, and said she was ready to go to bed. It seemed to upset her more if everything revolved around her and what she 'needed' as she was freaking out, making it all seem bigger and scarieir than it was.

In our case, she wasn't actively demanding our attention, as your daughter is, so I'm not sure how transferrable this is, but thought I'd put it out there.

Someone else also raised Ada getting her own bed, if you're comfortable with that. I wonder if she's feeling a bit as though, if she's still a baby, she's getting sloppy seconds compared to her little brother, so to speak? Rather than being "mommy's little baby who comes second now," (if that's how she's interpreting it - not saying this is your view), perhaps it would work for her to have her own special big-girl space and responsibilities.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Bedtime is the only time I ever start to dislike tandeming. It is hard. Dd loves for me to make up stories while ds nurses, and she usually is wrapped up enough in the story (about talking dogs that wear tutus and dance ballet







) that she doesn't fuss much. I saw in a previous post, though, that your ds is easily distracted, so that probably doesn't help. I find myself chanting regularly a line from 'Adventures in Tandem Nursing' saying that everyones' needs, if not wants, will be met adequately, if not ideally.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemama06*
We had a sleepy time box( one of those plastic crates with the lid) that we could only get out when mom was getting the baby down for the night.We never knew before we opened the box what was inside.Sometimes stickers,water colors,playdough,a video,little toys ( stuff like that) she also put a snack in it, juice , fruit,peanut butter and crakers.We knew we didnt get to look inthe box until she was with the baby.I can remember opening the box while mom was rocking Sabrina,we were always excited about what was inside and what snack we would have.

oh, i love this idea!!!
thanks!!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

sophie goes to sleep in about 10 minutes hen were alone but when oscar is around forget it

i have tv / video player in the spare room when its nap time i put on a video and give him a drink of water and he gets cosy it gives me the time to get baby to sleep

as we dont have tv on at any other time he actually acts like he is getting some sort of special treat and gets all excited!

i would love to be totally tv free but i cannot think of anything else for him to do while putting sophie to bed...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
what ideas were you trying to give me?









My apologies. Thank you for gently pointing out to me that I was making no sense. Sometimes it's hard for me because I know what I mean in my mind but when I try to write it, I obviously didn't write the important parts.
















To me, it sounds like you start to get baby ready for bed, but then your 3 yr old throws a tantrum wanting your attention.
You have responded by continuing to try and get baby to sleep, meanwhile the 3 yr old is not going to let that happen.

It has become a power struggle.

IME, if the 3 year old has recieved adequate attention throughout the day, she will not have the need/want to fight for it at the baby's bedtime.

One other thing: I teach my children respect for each other. ie- if the baby is crying and the other children are asking for me, I let them know that they need to respect their baby sister right now and that her cries mean she needs her mother, who is me.

I really like the idea about a 'special' toy box that a previous poster mentioned. That sounds like an ideal way to show your 3 yr old you think she is special while also allowing you time to get the baby to sleep.

Again, thank you for pointing out where I was not being helpful. I hope I made more sense with this post.
Good luck, and it sounds like you have gotten some excellent ideas.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

gosh, i am trying to remember what i did during that time other than struggle to survive.

no doubt i will get flamed to the netherworld & back for this, but i think 4 is old enough to hear 'wait darling, the baby needs to nurse first' & deal with it. (convincing the 4 yr old of this is the issue







.)

if it makes you feel any better, at some point you will be wondering what exactly helped in those days when some mama is asking _you_ for help & commiseration. (these days, they trade off having 'the bum end', as i'm not built to nurse on my back. it's something to laugh about- 'noooo, not the BUM END!' my 5 yr old weaned himself but that does not mean bedtime snuggling is passe'.







i still trade off face time for kisses & whispers, even if the breasts are not in active use on one of them.)


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I have not read all the replies, but this is what works for us.

I have a 4 year old and a one year old as well. I have to put the kids to bed by myself about once per week, occasionally more often. I am only nursing the one year old right now. When DH is here, we all do teeth brushing and stories together. We have a general time when this happens, not always exactly the same time each night, but within an hour or so generally. Then, DH lies with the 4 year old until he falls asleep, sometimes in his own bed, sometimes in ours. And I either nurse baby in the rocking chair til he falls asleep, or if he is not ready for bed yet, I take him in another room and play with him for a little while with the lights dim, until he gets sleepy enough.

Before his little brother was born, my 4 year old did not have as regular of a bed time. But since having the baby, I have had to have a bedtime for the 4 year old. There is no forcing involved. I mean, you cannot make a kid sleep. But, he doesn't take a nap in the day time, and so I have found that he is actually tired starting at about 7 p.m. (wakes up 7-8 a.m.). We were letting him stay up later because he wants to, but really that was not the best thing for him, or for our family. On the nights when DH is not here, I have to stay very much on "schedule" and put off my kitchen chores, etc. until after the kids are asleep. Priority is getting dinner on the table and then starting that bedtime routine. I try to make sure that the kids run around a little bit right after dinner and get off some energy (this helps a lot), and then we go to brushing and stories, sometimes bath, etc. Everything else is around that. But when I do this, my ds falls asleep, by himself (with me in the room), within 5 or 10 minutes. Seriously. When DH is here, he is reponsible for more of the bedtime and helping out, and so things some times get delayed a bit, and even just a little bit of overtiredness leads to meltdowns at bedtime. I was really amazed.

Now, I can't lay down with my ds1 when it is just me and the two kids. He would really like me to, and I would really like to, but I have tried it, and both of them get wound up and neither one of them gets to sleep until there is a lot of crying involved and building frustration on my part. But, I put baby in the sling, and bounce on the birth ball next to the bed while I rub his back. I sing lullabies. And he is tired, so it seems to be enough for him. I guess I look at it, like, I try to meet his needs the best way I can, while also meeting the baby's needs, and not totally losing it. It is hard. But he is 4, and me meeting his needs may not be exactly the way he imagined it, but I am still meeting his need for my presence in the room, for closeness, and (importantly) his need for adequate rest.


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## Msalise (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000*

i would love to be totally tv free but i cannot think of anything else for him to do while putting sophie to bed...

I just don't see how anyone could be TV free. I see it as let a kid be a kid and let them watch cartoons. I don't let My daughter watch the cartoons that are on TV, but I buy DVD's of the cartoons, and theres NOTHING wrong with it!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Msalise*
I just don't see how anyone could be TV free. I see it as let a kid be a kid and let them watch cartoons. I don't let My daughter watch the cartoons that are on TV, but I buy DVD's of the cartoons, and theres NOTHING wrong with it!

If you check out Finding Your Tribe forum, there is a thread for TV free families.

There is a risk for everything we do in life, it is just a matter of balancing those risks. Some of us have found that for our families we are a lot happier without a television.


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