# The ped wants us to stop nursing ***UPDATE PG 3***



## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Please offer any advice.

Here is our weight gain...

Birth- 10lbs 12oz
2 days- 10lbs 1oz
2 weeks- 10lbs 8oz
4 weeks- 10lbs 12oz
6 weeks- 11lbs 5 oz (after 5 days of supplementing)

The ped says she is not gaining enough weight and we need to quit nursing. I told him I didn't want to do that. But I am having mixed emotions. For one thing this is my 4th baby but the first that I have nursed. So the dynamics of figuring all of this out with so much responsibility is hard. I can't just sit around and nurse all day. The other thing is I am still in excrusiating pain. So much so that I can't keep her on more than about 10-12 min on each side. It is killing me still at 6 weeks. I have had two LC say that her latch is fine but I still feel like something is wrong. She is a pirana. She sucks so hard that her mouth is red and indented when I pry her off. She had never let it go on her own. We have been supplementing a little in the evening when she seems the hungriest for almost a week.

What should I do?


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## Miss Information (May 17, 2005)

I recommend a couple of things -

Rent a hospital grade pump to ensure emptying of the breasts if baby is not adequately doing that. pump after every nursing. this will ensure emptying of the breasts, add additional stimulation to the breasts, and increase supply. You'll need to do this at least for 10 minutes or until you have no more milk coming out (can also pump for at least 5 minutes after last drops of milk to really ensure extra stimulation). Medela or Ameda are two top manufacturers of hospital grade pumps.

Use a SNS or Lact-aid for the supplementation. It consists of a container to hold the supplement and a thin tube to tape to your breast. If you are pumping, you can supplement with as much breastmilk as you can, then formula if there isn't enough breastmilk. Doing it this way also ensures additional stimulation at the breasts. I will admit that it's not easy to get used to using one, but it can be done.

The latch can look okay from the outside but not be so on the inside. Was the LCs you saw board certified? They have more extensive training that the typical hospital LC.

Things that come to mind. Does baby have a high palate? Does baby have a short frenulum? Does baby have a clamp down reflex? Do you have thrush in your nipples (if you have burning, itching or stinging or sharp stabbing pains during bf or between bf, then you probably do) ? All these things can cause pain aside from an inadequate latch.

If baby nurses and clamps down, sometimes over time the baby will outgrow that tendency. I don't have specifics on how to fix the high palate or short frenulum, but an IBCLC would be able to help on that. There are many treatments on thrush, though sometimes it can be tricky. You can do a search on google for treating thrush. You'd have to treat you and your baby because it is commonly passed back and forth. Baby or you may not have any visible symptoms, though baby frequently has white spots in mouth or just a white coat on the tongue can indicate thrush that hasn't overgrown too much to be the spots (but remember formula can also coat the tongue), or yeast diaper rash, or you may have redness/shininess in the nipples, but even without actual visible symptoms ultimately it is very painful for you.

If you are committed to making this work, you can do it, but it may take a little time and money to do so. Though you may be able to be reimbursed by your insurance company or go throught WIC in your state to help out with expenses.

You can get support from your local chapter of LLL. They will have suggestions and can help point you in the right direction.

Big hugs and good luck.


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## T a r a (Jan 31, 2005)

Keep trying!









I had to start supplementing due to low supply and weight loss. It's over a year later, I'm still nursing some, and we have a great nursing bond. Yes, he's had to get a lot of formula over the past year, and it's been very frustrating at times, but SOOO worth it in the end.

I second the idea of renting a hospital grade pump and talking more in depth with a LC. I know it's tough with other kids at home. hang in there


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## crunchyconmomma (Feb 6, 2003)

i say tell the ped to shove it. seriously. give 'em a pink slip. find a decent ped that isn't formula-brainwashed. my son has only gained a pound a month since birth - 10 pounds at birth, a little under 15 pounds now at soon 5 months. that's "failure to thrive" by stupid ped standards. because their charts are made for formula fed babies, by formula companies. they want you to fail to get your money. period.

now, in all fairness, how does your child seem to be developing? temperment is what? if your child seems fine, you do need help with the nursing to be more pleasurable, but that is it. weight means nothing when it is the ONLY symptom. if something needs changing, weight will NOT be the only thing "off," as in the case of my munchkin.
good luck! get a good LC and come here for support from mamas that don't want to see you and your baby not nursing.


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## fremontmama (Jun 11, 2004)

I second what everyone else has said. You can do it!!!







Breastfeeding isnt always easy in the beginning, but it gets better, I promise. I highly recommend finding a good lactation consultant, maybe the next one you try, if you are able to, will be able to give you more and better advice than the 2 you have already seen. I am sure someone else recommended the La Leche League website, but you could probably find a good lactation consultant there and at least get some in person support. I also experienced a lot of nipple pain at the beginning of breastfeeding and found that it was a combination of needing a better latch and also just getting my nipples used to the amount of contact and sucking they were getting. Before long you will develop nipples of steel, :LOL then everything will be golden! Good luck!!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you so much for your quick replies.

I have a Purely Yours Ameda pump. Will that suffice? I get different amounts at different times. I have not been pumping everytime she nurses though. Usually once or twice a day.

Also everyone who looks at her says her frenulum looks fine. A little close to the tip of her tongue but not too bad.

I am not sure if the LC was board certified. The first one was the hospital LC. and then I called the health dept and they sent one out. But she did not even have a scael so I am not too sure how good she actually is.

I do have red nipples, shooting pains when she's not nursing, and burning shen she is so maybe I do have thrush and she doesn't.

Everything else about the baby says she is fine. She is happy, not dehydrated. Even the ped said that she looked fine.

I really am committed to doing this. I am going to start pumping after every feeding and read up on thrush. And see another LC. I have the name of one who was recommended by my doula.

Is there something I can take to boost my milk supply?

Thanks
Audrey


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## T a r a (Jan 31, 2005)

I think you do have thrush. You'll need to treat both yourself and baby. Keep nursing though, and make sure to sterilize all your pump parts (Medela microwave bags work great!)

For increasing supply: try Mothers Milk Tea, fenugreek, oatmeal, malt, or ask your doctor for a script for Reglan or domperidone (which you can either get at a compounding pharmacy or order from overseas)


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

You know, with such a high birthweight, maybe the baby's growth is just slowing down to measure "normally." If she'd been a little 7 pounder like mine, the ped wouldn't be freaking out. Just a thought.

I wish birthweight weren't such an influencing factor in deciding whether a baby is "failing to thrive" I second the pp who said weight's ONLY ONE factor in FTT-- if she seems pink and juicy and energetically happy, I'd find a more nursing-friendly ped. With as much experience as you have, I'd trust a mama to know whether her baby was healthy or not.

good luck! I had some pain nursing till around 8 weeks, honestly, but it sounds like an IBCLC could help you out in terms of the pain you're feeling.

ETA: "she" not "he" All babies aren't boys! Duh!


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Get a new ped. I'm starting to study to become an LC and this is what I know...

*Your baby will drop weight within the first week
*Your baby should be up to (or very close) to birth weight by week 2
*Your baby should gain close to 5-7 oz. each week until baby is 4 weeks old
*Your baby should gain close to 4-5 oz. each week from 4 weeks to 6 weeks

Your baby is very close to this. This is just a suggestion, too. It just gages one aspect of the nourishment. Other things to look for include...

*Wet diapers (5-6+ wet diapers a day)
*Dirty diapers (3+ a day, although some babies will only go 1 time a day or skip days and that is totally normal too)
*Softer breasts after feedings
*Baby content after feedings
*Baby is alert, active, and meeting developmental milestones
*Baby's skin coloring is a normal color

Does this fit your baby? If it does, then you have nothing to worry about. You are the mama. You know your baby. Good luck!

Shannon

Please keep us posted!

I second the whole thrush thing, but if you need help finding natural remedies, let us know, we'll help you find some!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

You guys are awesome. Thank you for being so supportive.

My midwife called me in a rx of nystantine (sp?) cream but will that even work if I am not treating the baby too? I would prefer to go a natural route rather than a medication route for thrush.

*maxwill129* Leah is pretty much normal according to your list. The only thing is she is not satisifed everytime. But she is also 6 weeks and a big baby so she is probably going through a growth spurt. It is frustrating to see her not gain more weight than that, but everything ya'll are saying is true. I am an experienced mama and looking at my baby she is fine. She a lot happier than my VERY high maintenance 17 month old was.







She was in a class all of her own.

There are times like tonight when it truly hurt too bad to nurse. So I gave her some formula and pumped. Can I mix EBM with formula? I don't have enough stored up yet to actually only give her EBM but maybe in a few days I will. Sometimes I only get a few drops but like I said I have not been pumping everytime she eats. Hopefully if I do that things will change soon. The pain is wierd. When I am pretty full, it doesn't hurt as bad but if I am not as full then it kills me. And I tend to not fill up as well in the early evening which is when we have been using some formula for the last few days.

Anyway thanks again for letting me ramble on.


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## coco4cloth (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
You guys are awesome. Thank you for being so supportive.

My midwife called me in a rx of nystantine (sp?) cream but will that even work if I am not treating the baby too? I would prefer to go a natural route rather than a medication route for thrush.


You need to treat BOTH of you. I suffered many rounds of thrush and you do not want to let this go. I gave up doing the whole natural route with thrush after months and months of getting it. It took diflucan to get rid of it. You can try Gentian Violet first.

http://www.drjaygordon.com/bf/thrush.htm

Check out that link. Make sure you are washing your bras on hot water too.

I agree with the other ladies, keep nursing. You are the mom, you will know if your baby isn't thriving. Sounds like she is doing just fine.


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

I'm learning a lot from this thread, but I'm a little confused. What is the rationale behind pumping in this situation? Isn't the best way to increase supply to nurse on demand until baby is satisfied and cut out all supplementation?

Maybe the reason for pumping is that the thrush is making it too painful to nurse the baby until satisfied every time, or too painful to nurse on demand around the clock right now?

Just curious.....


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

First, good for you to be sticking with it








But six weeks is not the time to supplement. giving your baby a bottle is going to make the latch worst. I mean, can you give the baby the EBM or FF another way? syringe feed or with a cup.
Evening is when mlik supplys are usally low. The end of the day, stress, making dinner, ect. Make sure to drink lots of water in the evening, this really helped me. At six weeks my DD nursed every 45 min for 24 hours. I was exhausted, but it only took one day and my milk was back to meeting her needs. breastfed baby's eat every 2 hours, it is very diffrent from a ff, i have had both. It can feel very demanding.

I had 2 toungue tied babys and I got them clipped. I highly recomend it. my 2nd ds was very "high needs" until I got it clipped at 4 weeks and then he was a diffrent baby, he nursed longer without it hurting for me and he had less gas.
It will get better








Good luck.


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## chitai (May 21, 2005)

What is "clipped?" Thx.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

First off









Then - alot of good info here. I'll add my overview and $.02

treat the thrush -somehow
dump the ped.
dump the formula
get rid of the bottles
get rid of any nipples but yours
nurse as much as she will (yes, I know it hurts- been there







)
nurse some more
nurse as long as she will
never pull her off...
if she asks to nurse, nurse
if you think she's hungry, nurse
if she wants to suck, nurse
if you wake up in the middle of the night, nurse
see a theme here?









My dd was a terror to nurse the first month or so- blood blisters, cracked nipples, bleeding nipples, thought the nipples would tear off....

Hang in there! Kudos to you for being willing to stick with it. Sometimes it DOES hurt, but it gets better, I promise.

-Angela


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

Clipped is to get it cut. The dr cuts the frenulum, with siccors
wow it sounds awful put like this, but really it saved my nursing relationship.
#1 ds bled alot, ds# 2 did not


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## pinky (Nov 21, 2001)

Mama, I don't have any more advice for you, but I just wanted to say good for you for sticking it out! This is a wonderful gift that you are giving your baby. You will never ever be sorry. I had a lot of difficulties nursing my first baby, and I'm sooo glad I hung in there. Good luck!


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

My babe had a similar pattern. My advice is to switch from supplementing w/ formula to supplementing with pumped milk (pump AFTER feedings at the breast), then to gradually cut back the supplements until your babe is 100% on the breast.

I fortunately had a ped who was more supportive of bf'ing. It took three tries of cutting back supplements, but she did start gaining w/o them before 2 mos. I have large nipples (not the areola, the actual nipple) so at first I think she just needed to grow into being able to latch well with the size. I don't think it likely the next baby will have the same prob, DD has sucked my nipples into a more amenable shape since then!

Also, our nursing seemed to improve when I stopped supplementing w/ bottles and used a dropper instead (which the babe thought was a big hassle, as did I). If I could have afforded it, I'd have tried an SNS. (I'd also have consulted an IBCLC).

Nursing w/ supplementing is better than not nursing at all! Your ped needs an education. And from your description, it doesn't sound to me like exclusive bf'ing w/in a few more months is an unreasonable goal for you to have with your babe at this point.

Oh, another thing: Try repeat feeds on the same side, it can help babe get more hindmilk (where most of the fat is). That also helped us. DD was having green mucousy poo from foremilk/hindmilk imbalance at first, and that can cause slow/no weight gain.

And DEFINITELY treat for thrush!!! You can get gentian violet at a regular pharmacy, it's the best stuff. See www.kellymom.com


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## Miss Information (May 17, 2005)

Some other thoughts I've had.

6 weeks is the time for a growth spurt. So baby being hungier and even fussier is normal. I tried to cut down on supplementing during the growth spurt of my E so that the baby/my body could do its job better.

Someone referenced Dr Jay Gordon's website. You can find Grapefruit Seed Extract at your local health/vitamin store. This way you can treat both yourself and baby. I've heard Gentian Violet to be effective but it stains a lot and can get messy. I would probably try the GSE route first, then if it doesn't help things after 3 days, then go the GV route.

Pumping allows any supplementation to be done with more bm than formula. I pump a lot, so that if supplementation is needed, I can do so with bm. If I don't feel baby nursed well, then I pump after feeds. If I have extra time on my hands until the next feed, I'll through extra pumping sessions in at night before my bedtime. If I happen to wake during the night like I did tonight b/c my 19 month old is teething, then I'll pump then too.

I looked up on Ameda's website. Most likely, unless you paid about $700 for your pump, you probably don't have their hospital grade pump. But if yours in an electric double pump, then it's better than a hand pump. A hospital grade pump has extra suctioning power. Some women do fine with lesser models. Or you can rent a hospital grade pump for a month while you are building up your milk supply and then use your own after that.

Yes, you can mix breast milk and formula. The only thing is don't make so much that she doesn't finish the bottle. You want every drop of bm to be in her, not left over in the bottle.

Don't feel bad about using some formula until you can build up a supply of extra ebm. You can do power pumping sessions - 10 minutes on, 10 minutes off if you find you don't have tons of time to pump for as long as you feel like it.

Make sure you are using breast compressions too during nursing and during pumping. That will help the milk to come out faster and help empty the breast.

some websites for help

www.kellymom.com
www.breastfeedingonline.com
www.drjaygordon.com


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## William's Mom (Oct 6, 2004)

I don't have much time, but I just had to respond. You CAN do this. I struggled with many problems in the beginning, and had EXTREMELY low supply. Even now at almost 10 months BF, I still have low supply issues from time to time.

I second what the other people have said about pumping after each feeding. It will take devotion, and lots of time and effort, but it WILL work. Also let the baby have both breasts each feeding for as long as you can handle the sucking.

The nipple pain will NOT last forever. Trust me.

The main reason I wanted to respond is to tell you about Motherlove More Milk Tinctures. I have to admit that I was skeptical at first, but honestly, it DOES work, and in a BIG way! I could be a spokesperson for this company, I'm so happy with it's products.

I had tried fenugreek pills and tea before, and they worked moderately.

However, the liquid tinctures are what saved my nursing relationship. And now I absolutely adore giving my nursling his "nursies." It's the best feeling in the world.

Here is the direct link to what I use (You can read and see which tincture sounds right for you. I've used the More Milk Plus, the More Milk Plus Alcohol Free, and the More Milk Special Blend.) They are awesome, and worth every penny. Also, there is a great price break if you go ahead and order the bigger size. (For what it's worth, I just took a dose before I came to read on MDC because I have bronchitis and I was worried about it reducing my supply, but with taking this every day, it has not lessened at all.)

The tinctures: (liquid herbal extracts)
http://www.motherlove.com/products_extracts.php

Here is their home page as well. They have lots of other good products, too.
http://www.motherlove.com

And try out another ped, and tell him/her your concerns and reasons for being there.

Good luck. It will all work out.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

*coco4cloth* I can't imagine having this kind of pain for months. You are such a strong woman. Coming here just amazes me. Seeing what women will do for their babies. I have one friend in real life that is really sacrificing to nurse, but most of the people I know just give it up. And are kind of telling me to do the same.

*snugglemama* My reason for pumping some is that it hurts less than nursing. And when I have less milk nursing hurts even more. So yesterday when I felt like I didn't have a lot of milk and I was so anticipating the pain, I gave her a bottle and pumped instead.

*thought the nipples would tear off* That's a very accurate desciption of what I feel like.

*DD was having green mucousy poo from foremilk/hindmilk imbalance at first, and that can cause slow/no weight gain.* Yes!! Leah had these for the first 5 weeks. And then all of a sudden, they started looking more "normal." They are the "right" color and everything now. Occasionally she will have one that looks weird again but for the most part they look better. Hopefully that means it's getting better.

Ok I am going to get the tinctures and the GSE and see how that works. I called my midwife yesterday but I realized at 9pm that she didn't call me back.









Short of seeing another LC (just don't have the money right now) how can I be sure it is thrush or not? I do have the burning the whole time she is nursing. I do have the deep shooting pains. The bright red nipples. But that's it. I don't see my midwife for another 2 weeks. I guess I can just treat it as though I have it and see if the pain improves?

I do have 4 /4oz bottles of EBM saved up now so at least I can give that to her instead of formula for the next couple of days if I am dying. My dh is being really supportive but even he is getting to the point of wanting me to quit just b/c I am so miserable. But at the same time he understands how bad I want it to work so he is being understanding.

Thanks


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Please, dump the bottles. Use a cup, use a dropper, use an sns, but drop the bottles. It's making life harder on your nipples (and been there-done that- you don't want that!) Your baby is switching back and forth between two sucking patterns. Every time you give her a bottle you're telling her to suck your nipples like that- then she does and it hurts you more. Get rid of the bottles. Every last one.










-Angela


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## Childishgoth (Aug 26, 2004)

hey keep in there, now i cant tell you exactly about your baby but ill tell you what happen with my baby.

because of my low milk supply ds would latch on and just suck so hard that it hurt so bad. thats because he was trying despretly to get more milk. once i started using an sns feeder that all changed. HOWEVER because of the way the sns works based on gravity and just gives the milk out with out the baby needing to work for it, it really affected my supply. I found a book called defining your own success. and i HIGHLY recommend it. the book is for women who have had breast reduction surgery.. but i just skipped those parts and read more about breastfeeding in general. thats where i found out about the lactaid nurser. i really love it, when my milk is flowing well in to his mouth he dosnt suck as hard and dosnt take as much formula for the lactaid, if my milk starts running low he sucks harder and gets formula form the lactaid but he is not sucking anywhere as hard as he originaly had with out the lactaid.. so no more sore nipples.
also the book has LOTS of suggestions on increasing milk supply. with the use of the lactaid and her suggestions i was able to go from 3% production to ovr 50%.

please dont give up. if you ever need to talk feel free to email me or ill even call you. i know its hard trust me.. there were so many times i just wanted to quit but my bf friends were there to lend support.

Oh and on the ped end. god we went to like 4 ped that all told me just to give him a bottle, we finaly found a gp that was like WOW LACTAID! Good mama!!! and told me not to give him any other liquids and to keep at it. so just keep looking

ps.. I couldnt pump any milk even with the pump from the hospital.. (long story) so thats why i used formula.. but if you can use pumped milk then please do.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your story.

What is a SNS and a lactaid?


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## Childishgoth (Aug 26, 2004)

sns
and
lact-aid

The sns is basicly like a little container that you put your milk in and it has 2 small tubes that come down, you place it next to your nipple and the bottle is hung upside down from your neck and the milk comes down the tube to your baby. i didnt like it because it was bulky and akward. but its cheep and wic covers it fo free.

the lactaid on the other hadn is a bag you will up with milk (they are presterlized bags) and you hang around your neck, the bag is thin so its close to our body adn then you take the little tube and place it next to your nipple and the baby latches on. when she sucks to drink she sucks the milk in to her mouth.. kind of like a straw. i use my lact-aid at home and out on the go. i just take a little cooler and when its time to nurse i slip it on put it under my shirt and no one has to know.
i suck at explaing thigns o if have any qusestions let me know


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

I went through this with one of the twins. He'd nurse, but he wasnt' gaining (at all in his case, he also wasn't having bm's.)

Anyway, I had to do this routine. First I nursed him, then I gave him a bottle of formular or EBM, then I pumped. Now, luckily I had employed help or there would have been NO WAY that I'd ever have found the time to pump with twins and a toddler. At 11 weeks I was mostly giving EBM in the bottles, so I decided to take a "nursing weekend" and give up the bottles, and it worked! But the important thing to remember is to "feed the baby." That's the first rule in lactation problems, the second rule is "move the milk" (nurse and pump.) I found that dark beer (Warsteiner, one per day) did help increase my supply by a few ounces or so btw.

As far as the thrush goes, and it does sound like you have it, you do need to treat both of you. Have you had the baby looked at by a ped to see if she has thrush? My oldest had it at one point and it was way back in his throat where it couldn't be easily seen.

I also rented a Medela scale, the one where you weigh the baby before and after to gauge how much milk he's taking. So that's an option that you might want to consider. It also let me track his weight gain.

Hang in there, you can definitely do this.


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## sbgquilt (Jan 7, 2005)

Keep trying and find local support for yourself. it's worth it.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

OK just stopping by to say that the GSE is DISGUSTING!! That is the nastiest stuff I have ever tasted. I also bought some fenugreek yesterday. Does anyone have a dosage on that? One of our problems is that we have no money right now so I am having to just improvise. The fenugreek was much cheaper than the motherlove stuff so for now I will just use that.

The ped didn't see any evidence of thrush so how can I treat the baby too? If I am taking something does that count for treating her?

Last night we nursed and nursed and nursed. I am so sore but she only had 1 1/2 oz of formula before bed where previously she had been having 4 oz and she hasn't had any today.


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## coco4cloth (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
OK just stopping by to say that the GSE is DISGUSTING!! That is the nastiest stuff I have ever tasted. I also bought some fenugreek yesterday. Does anyone have a dosage on that? One of our problems is that we have no money right now so I am having to just improvise. The fenugreek was much cheaper than the motherlove stuff so for now I will just use that.

The ped didn't see any evidence of thrush so how can I treat the baby too? If I am taking something does that count for treating her?

Last night we nursed and nursed and nursed. I am so sore but she only had 1 1/2 oz of formula before bed where previously she had been having 4 oz and she hasn't had any today.

Are your swapping your nipples with the gse??

You both need to be treated! Even if the babe looks fine! You don't want to get into the routine of passing it back and forth.

Here is a good link
http://lactinv.com/tscreen.htm

Make sure you eliminate sugar from your diet!

You can always try Gentian Violet! It's messy but works and you can get it at most pharmacies.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *T a r a*
For increasing supply: try Mothers Milk Tea, fenugreek, oatmeal, malt, or ask your doctor for a script for Reglan or domperidone (which you can either get at a compounding pharmacy or order from overseas)

Oatmeal worked great for me when I had some low supply issues and was really skeptical it would. Delicious too! Well *I* like it!


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## Childishgoth (Aug 26, 2004)

Oh i cant beilive i forgot , try goats rue. the stuff is so nasty and its like 4 drops per 10lbs of body weight. i just stuck it in apple juice and chuged it but i could tell the diffrence by the next day.

its expensive but it works so fast.

the fennugreek is 3-4 pills 3-4 times a day.

I took fennugreek, blessed thistle , bitter fennel, mothers love and umm all the teas. but goats rue is what i noticed the most diffrence with.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks for that link

After looking at that, we have none of those symptoms. We have no white, no diaper rash, and my nipples don't look like that. I haven't been on antibotics, or any of those things. And the major thing is this is not new pain, it's been like this the whole time. Has anyone experienced this pain just from nursing itself? Is it possible that it just still hurts and I my nipples need to toughen up more? I just hate to buy all this stuff and treat us if we really don't have it.

Thanks
Audrey


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## Earthy~Mama (Apr 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
First off









Then - alot of good info here. I'll add my overview and $.02

treat the thrush -somehow
dump the ped.
dump the formula
get rid of the bottles
get rid of any nipples but yours
nurse as much as she will (yes, I know it hurts- been there







)
nurse some more
nurse as long as she will
never pull her off...
if she asks to nurse, nurse
if you think she's hungry, nurse
if she wants to suck, nurse
if you wake up in the middle of the night, nurse
see a theme here?









My dd was a terror to nurse the first month or so- blood blisters, cracked nipples, bleeding nipples, thought the nipples would tear off....

Hang in there! Kudos to you for being willing to stick with it. Sometimes it DOES hurt, but it gets better, I promise.

-Angela









ITA with Angela. I also want to add that you maye want to get a wrap and learn how to nurse while wearing it. I would be lost without my wrap.


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

I highly suggest contacting an LLL leader. It would probably be much more helpful to have someone brainstorm/trouble shoot with you in person. Some leaders will even come to you for free to see if they can tell what's going on. And if not, you could go to the next meeting, which is also free. A lot of times leaders have more experience than an LC.

But if that's not an option, maybe if you describe the pain in specific detail, we can try and help you figure it out. If it's mostly nipple pain, maybe it's due to the baby switching back and forth between sucking patterns, as someone suggested earlier. But a shooting, deep pain may mean something else. It sounds like you are pretty sure it's not thrush.

Keep hanging in there, you're doing a great job of sticking with it! Many mamas would have quit by now! You are obviously strong and determined (and your baby will thank you)!


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Okay. It sounds like you don't think it's thrush anymore. I had horrible pains in my nipples (shooting pains) and my nipples were red. Everyone told me it was thrush (I actually thought maybe that's what you had and had posted that earlier) and I was put on 4 different medications because it wouldn't go away. My dd was put on 4 different medications because you have to treat the baby too. Nothing seemed to be working. I would CRY when dd would start stirring and I knew she wanted to eat. It was horrible. The pain was so excruciating. I would cry for the entire feedings. But you know what? In the back of my mind I knew it wasn't thrush and it turned out not to be. I had 2 LC's tell me I should quit nursing because my thrush couldn't be treated, and I almost listened, but I was SO DETERMINED TO BF!

Anyway, I ended up calling a LLL leader. She worked with me for hours. She was awesome, but I was still in pain. One suggestion she had for me was to put lanolin on my nipples immediately before a feeding to dull the pain (and it really worked). I finally saw an LC who looked at my nipples and told me that my skin just looked irritated. What?! I thought that was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. She told me to put lanolin on right before I nursed, right after I nursed, and anytime I could remember in between. She said my nipples were just dried out. She also said to put lanolin on before showers to keep the water from drying them out. Within a few weeks, everything was fine. I still get sore nipples if my daughter nurses a lot in one day, because I get dried out. I know this sounds corny, but after 10 weeks of painful nursing I was willing to try anything and by 12 weeks I was nursing pain free.

Hope this helps and you understand what I said. I'm trying to type fast because my little ds just got out of bed!

Shannon


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh it's quite possible for your nipples to hurt like you can't believe and not have thrush. No thrush here (ever) but boy those first couple of months hurt like the dickens...

hang in there! It's worth it in the end.

-Angela


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you so much for all the encouragement. DD only got 2oz of formula all day yesterday. I didn't even have to give her a bottle before bed like I had been doing.

How do I contact a LLL leader?

The lanolin idea is good. I have some natural stuff like that and I was using it at the beginning. I think I will start that again too.

The more I read about thrush, the more I think maybe this is not it. This oain has been consistent form the beginning. And I am thinking if it was thrush I would see some white in dd's mouth by now.

I do know that this kid has a very powerful suck. Which could be a result of her having to work so hard to get it out. But when I take her off and usually I have to, she has indentions and red lines on her face and nose. But you know what? yesterday she actually started popping herself off on her own. Does that mean she has gotten enough? It seems like she was satisfied.

Audrey

Audrey


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

I wanted to tell you that a friend of mine (who has 4 kids) nursed all of them. She had no problem with the first 3, but the last one, her dd, she had HUGE problems with pain. She said that her daughter had such a powerful suck that she could stick her against the wall and she'd stay because of the force from that suck! I think it IS possible that this is the problem.

Also, if your ds is popping off by himself and seems satisfied, he's probably had enough or needs to burb and then go back on. I'm not sure of your ds's burping habits, though (my daughter never needed to burp, so when she'd pop off I knew she was done).

Please DO NOT GIVE UP! I nursed my first dc and gave up after 3 weeks because it hurt so bad. With my dd I was having the same pain, but decided to stick with it. It really sucks when nursing is not enjoyable, but once you get past that first couple of months, I'm telling you, you will be SO HAPPY that you stuck with it! Please, anytime you need encouragement we're here for you. I just hate to see a nursing relationship ruined. You can do this! Just remember how important this is to, not just your ds, but to you too!!!

Oh, and you can go to the LLL website: www.lalecheleague.org/
to find a LLL leader in your area. They should help you, but if for some reason you call one and she doesn't seem interested in getting together with you or isn't listening to you (I had that happen) call another one. There should be more than one in your area.

Good luck! You're doing AWESOME!









Shannon

Also, I totally agree that if it was thrush it wouldn't have been painful from the beginning and although it's possible for your ds to not ever have symptoms, I think it's unlikely that by now he doesn't have white patches in his mouth. Trust your gut.

Oh, and I have to tell you that I LOVE the name Audrey (it's #1 on our baby name list for the next time we have a baby!)


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

I just wanted to add, it is not unusual for a newborn to want to nurse for 40 minutes or more at a time. Probably totally different than bottle feeding. So if possible, nurse until the baby tells you she's done. I can imagine that with three others this may be hard at times, but it's the best way to make sure you have a good supply and baby is full. Sometimes she'll go through spurts when she's nursing even more than usual, or seems like around the clock. This is normal too, it means she's going through a growth spurt and needs to up your milk level. Isn't it great how mama and baby can work together as a team?

Hang in there, you're doing great!


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## Steady101 (Jun 24, 2004)

Good for you for sticking with it. And your ped is an a$$.

I didn't read everything but pumping a little off and then making sure he is getting the fatty milk will help too.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Some lactation consultants will waive their fee for low income moms. (This may be rare and some LC"s may not be in a position to do so, but I have heard of it happening.)

Sometimes you can get WIC if you are in the USA and meet income guidelines, they may have an LC or may not.

La Leche league leaders will help for free and may have other ideas on how to get free, skilled, experienced advice.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks so much for all the support. You guys are truly amazing.

I did find a LLL leader in my area but she wasn't available yesterday so I am going to try again today. Also I have noticed that over the last 36 hours or so, it is not hurting as much!! I really think it's not thrush and I just have a very powerful sucker.







So I am still hanging in. My midwife called me in a RX of Reglan. I haven't picked it up yet. Does anyone know anything about side effects? My older dd had reglan for reflux and she had some kind of small seizure type thing happen so I took her off of it, so I am little wary of the Reglan.

I think my milk supply is going up. We have drastically cut down on the amount of formula we have given her. And she seems more satisfied with just me. Also her diapers are continuing to look like a breast fed baby diaper. And she is having more pee diapers too.

I think we are turning a corner.

Audrey


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Good for you guys!!! You are doing awesome, mama! I'm so proud of you for sticking with it! You will LOVE nursing once you are completely pain-free. Please continue to keep us posted with how things are going!









Shannon

PS-Sorry, I don't know side effects of Reglan. My children were both on Zantac (ick) and I hated that. Could you try to Google Reglan and see what comes up?


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

I've skimmed most of the replies and just wanted to add a couple of points. You've gotten some great advice already.

First and foremost, if you suspect thrush at all, do not, I repeat *do not* use lanolin. It's great for use as a preventative and to treat sore nipples, but yeast love lanolin and it can make a great enviroment for them to live in. Instead, see if you can get your health care provider or LC to write you a perscription for Dr. Jack Newman's all purpose nipple ointment. Here's a link
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/c-candida_protocol.html

Now, it is possible that this isn't thrush. Does your baby have white patches on his tongue or lips or gums? Are your nipples bright red and feel as if they are on fire? Do your breasts ache or do you exeperience sharp pains in them as if they are filled with shards of glass? These are al signs and symptoms of thrush. Nipple pain is just one.

If it hurts less to express milk with a pump, I would suggest to you that this might be a latch issue. I had thrush for months and, even tho my nipples were sore, the pain didn't intensify during a feed. I had pain during initial latch on, but it stayed the same or lessened as the feed progressed. When ds's latch was bad, the pain got worse over time. It's entirely possible that your baby isn't getting enough milk because of a poor latch.

This CAN be remedied!! Have you tried breast compression at all? If you go to www.breastfeeding.com, there are several videos on how to get a proper latch.

Was your delivery fairly fast or was your baby born via c-section? If so, You might also want to consider cranial sacral therapy.

I hope that you can get the help you need


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## Miss Information (May 17, 2005)

One of the major side effects of Reglan is depression. For that reason, if you do use it, be aware of the possibility and if you do notice signs of depression, discontinue using it. I was on Reglan once, but not on the right dosage to actually produce depression - or to increase milk supply either. For me, 1 10mg pill a day did nothing to increase supply

Another product domperidone, which is not easily available here, but at compounding pharmacies with a drs prescription, or overseas through the internet, is more effective with less side effects. There has been concern regarding possible heart attacks with usage of dom, but that was in the IV form, not pill form and not in the dosages breastfeeding moms use.

Here is an article regarding domperidone and also a few details regarding the use of Reglan and depression.

http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/O...atements.shtml

Good luck.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Are your nipples blanched (white in appearence) when your daughter comes off the breast? Some of what you describe sounds like the Reynauds I had with my daughter. The blanched nipples are a key sign of that though.

IF that is happening, Vit B6 clears it up in a couple weeks. I'll check back and explain more if the blanching is happening.

GL Mama, and you are doing such an awesome job!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

I really think it is just a latch issue. I don't really think she is latching wrong as much as she is strong. It's funny how in the last couple of days I am less stressed about it and things are going much better. She is going througha growth spurt and eating a lot but it is not as painful so it's not as big of a deal.

I did look and it seems like my nipple look white at the tip when she gets off.

I am really glad that someone mentioned the depression with Reglan. I am VERY prone to depression. I have relly just gotten over it this time and it still pops up some days. I don't want to do anything to make that worse.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*

I did look and it seems like my nipple look white at the tip when she gets off.


Most women are low in B-vits, so I highly reccomend picking up some 50mg Vit B-6 tablets. If you are having some Reynauds going on it will take care of it. I had it really bad and had shooting pains through my breasts, burning while nursing and severe pain as the blood went back to my nipples after nursing.

If you do take b-6, make sure you don't take more than 50mg/day. Mine was bad and I took 200mg for 1 week, then 100mg for a week, then 50mg regurlarly. If you take too much (100+mg for more than a couple weeks) it can reduce milk supply.

I'm glad things are getting better!


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Audrey,

Good for you! You are doing a terrific job







. I just wanted to tell you that the last of my (severe) nursing pain went away at eight weeks. I'm so thankful that I made it through those eight weeks (with the help of narcotics prescribed for c-section) because we went on to nurse for 15 trouble-free months!

I didn't have thrush and three lactation consultants said our latch was perfect. The only explanation that makes sense for the terrible pain is Reynauds, but I'm not absolutely sure it was that either. One LC said that she sees this more in women with very fair, freckled skin, paired with vaccum sucker babies :LOL .


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you.

I think we are in a growth spurt. How long do they typically last? Or how long until your milk catches up? She basically ate every hour for about 30 min at a time yesterday and during the night. I'm a little tapped out.

Audrey


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

*Mountaingirl3* We posted at the same time. Thank you for the support. That may be what the problem is. I am pretty fair skinned.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Exclusively breastfed babies NORMALLY lose a little weight during their first week. Again, that is NORMAL.

This is SO normal that when my pixie _gained_ nearly half a pound in his first week and a whole pound in his second, the paediatrician we had was shocked. And wondering what my milk was made of. He said he was toying with the idea of asking for a sample to have tested but then he thought that my little one should just get every drop there was.

Unfortunately, you don't have a terribly knowledgable paediatrician.

AND, really, you don't need to take more stuff to make more. That sounds like a really normal curve for the beginning.

If you want to take something, try red clover tea instead. Galactogogue and good for your energy level and all-around health. And tastes nice.

Or hops. Doesn't taste so nice (bitter), but a really great galactogogue and the bitters are good for the gall bladder & liver.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl3*
I didn't have thrush and three lactation consultants said our latch was perfect. The only explanation that makes sense for the terrible pain is Reynauds, but I'm not absolutely sure it was that either. One LC said that she sees this more in women with very fair, freckled skin, paired with vaccum sucker babies.

I had an LC tell me this, too! Glad you shared this info.

Audrey,
I'm so proud of you for sticking with this! You won't regret it!

Shannon


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## red17 (May 30, 2005)

My mother, who's British, always said that BFing mothers were given a prescription for stout beer -- Guinness is one that comes to mind -- because it stimulated milk production. She BF all three of us and never had issues with milk production. (I can't help you with the pain though.)

I really dislike the taste of stout, but if it would help with producing more milk, I'd give it a shot. If memory serves, it was 6 oz. a day. There was another reply about hops helping, so perhaps it's worth a try. If you can stomach it, maybe try half a bottle of stout for a few days to see if it ups your milk production.

Sounds to me like you're determined. Congrat's. I hope that when my turn comes in Sept. I will have as much resolve too -- I'm also fair skinned, freckeled, and a redhead, so this discussion has been eyeopening for me too. Good luck Audrey! I know you'll be a BF'ing champ in no time.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you so much for the support. It is such a nice feeling to come here.

Guess what? Leah gained almost a pound in the last week!! SHe was 11lb and 5oz last thursday and today she was 12lb 2oz!! The ped was very surprised when I told him that I am nursing and she is actually getting very little formula per day. Maybe 4oz at the most. He said, "Well you must be doing something right!" Well DUH!! Really he is very nice and admittedly does not know much about nursing, so it is good to be able to educate him a little. But still I am looking for a new ped. I want someone a little more natural and I have girls so I am going to need to find a woman that I like.

Anyway!! Yeah for Leah!!

Audrey


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

in my experince growth spurts lasted about 12 hours, that was with dd nursing every 45 min. but they usally last any where from 24 to 48. stay really hydrated. let her nurse as much as she wants, even if you feel empty. she is making more milk the more she sucks.

your a great mom.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:

I did look and it seems like my nipple look white at the tip when she gets off.
White at the tip of the nipple when they get off is usually due to poor latch, not getting enough of the nipple far enough into the mouth.

I'm so glad things are getting better!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Ok ladies.

I thought we were doing better. It turns out we're not doing as well as I thought. She's still not gaining weight.

Here's the weight gain...
Birth- 10lbs 12oz
2 days- 10lbs 1oz
2 weeks- 10lbs 8oz
4 weeks- 10lbs 12oz
6 weeks- 11lbs 5 oz (after 5 days of supplementing)
7 weeks- 12lbs 2oz
11 weeks- 12 lbs 3 oz

She only gained 1 oz in 4 weeks. The ped wants me to supplement after every feeding. And I tried but she really isnt interested. And last night I was gone and my husband fed her and she only ate 3oz of formula. She's eating for like 7-8 min on each side. Sometimes even less. She starts whipping around and not swallowing and then she just pops off. I am not feeling full and I just attributed that to her being almost 3 months. She's very happy!! She is going 4-5 hours at night and 2 1/2 - 3 hours during the day.

I have to take her back in next week and if she hasn't gained weight they are going to do some blood work.

Any advice?

Thanks


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

I strongly recommend contacting an LLL Leader to speak with over the phone. She may come out to your house, or you could go to a meeting so she can evaluate the latch. A combination of pain and slow weight gain indicates a problem with the latch or the babies suck. Even though an LC thought the latch was fine, another person may have another opinion. An LLL person will also be able to show you how to do breast compressions to help the baby get more milk and hindmilk at each feeding, and it's much easier to trouble shoot IRL than over the internet.

A couple questions, does dd use a pacifier? Does she eat according to schedule, or on demand? What color are her poops? Sorry if these questions have been asked before, I didn't have time to read through all the posts.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:

A couple questions, does dd use a pacifier? Does she eat according to schedule, or on demand? What color are her poops? Sorry if these questions have been asked before, I didn't have time to read through all the posts.
Thanks for responding. No she does not take a paci, she has kind of put herself on a schedule of 2 1/2 to 3 hours but I feed her whenever she cries basically. Her poop is mostly greenish and soaks into her diaper. Occassionaly we have a seedy, yellow bf baby poop.

I will contact a LLL leader. I have not done it before b/c I thought the problems were worked out.









Thanks
Audrey


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

Hang in there Audrey, it WILL work out, be diligent, you will be happier in the end (and so will your baby).


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## boobybunny (Jun 28, 2005)

YOU can do this. My son failed to thrive, I got hooked up with a LC (105.00 US) for about two months. I STILL have my hospital pump. At 40.00 bucks a month it is cheaper than formula when I have to be away.

Birth 7lbs 3 oz








two weeks 6 lbs 12 oz







"lets get you in with a really good LC" and I started taking fenugreek, and drinking black butte porter.
three weeks 6 lbs 10 oz







: ...added reglan to the mix, BF, pumped, hubby bottle fed, (over and over again) "don't look now but mama's got her boobs out"

3 weeks+3 days of work with a LC







7lbs

four weeks, 8lbs 2oz









six weeks 10 lbs







no more formula, My Ped said "sink or swim" on monday, see you friday for weight check.

Friday 10 lbs, 5 oz.






























The boy has not seen formula since.
8 plus months, 20 plus pounds.

YOU CAN DO IT


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
I will contact a LLL leader. I have not done it before b/c I thought the problems were worked out.










Audrey, your determination *will* see you through this!!! Keep up the great work. And keep in mind that even if $$ is tight right now, you'll be spending a TON more money if you go the full-time formula feeding route. So it's worth it to spend the $50 on a well-recommended, very informed IBCLC, or on an SNS or renting an excellent quality pump (WIC will often subsidize a hospital-grade pump rental!!!). If you're lucky, one of your local LLL leaders might even be an IBCLC, so if you go to a meeting, you essentially get her advice for free.

At any rate, DEFINITELY contact and make an effort to get to some of your local LLL groups and API groups for BF support *and* for recommendations for an excellent IBCLC. And don't be afraid to shop around -- I'm in a city of about 17 different LLL leaders, and there are some I really respect and love







(super informed, very encouraging) and some I don't find very helpful at all (lacking in empathy or information







). SO, don't hesitate to call *several* leaders, or attend several different groups, until you find someone who you find to be responsive, informed, helpful, etc.

Bottom line: HANG IN THERE!!! We had a really rocky start, too, but after trying 3 different LCs and 2 different LLL groups, plus a ton of support from DH and my parents, we were finally able to just breastfeed (without all the hoopla and paraphanalia). Worth every crying session and every nipple pain and every effort!!!

YOU CAN DO THIS!


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Oh, I'm so sorry! I thought things were good, too!!! I agree with everyone else...you can do this! Please call an LLL leader. They are awesome! Although I agree with the PP when she said you may have to shop around! I had a bunch of LC's tell me I had to quit nursing before I found a really wonderful LLL leader who helped me figure things out with my DD.

I'm glad they're going to do bloodwork- just to rule out anything physical. I know things will work out. I promise you will not regret all the effort you're putting into this. It is so worth it.

Hang in there!!!









Shannon


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

Audrey,
Green poops are an indication that dd is not getting enough hindmilk. You may know this already, but when baby nurses, the first few minutes she is getting foremilk, which is like the liquidy milk, then your hindmilk starts flowing, which is the really heavy calorie stuff. It's the main course. If she is only nursing for a few minutes at a time, she may not be getting to the good stuff - and green poops are an indication of that. Try to make sure she drains one breast before going to the other one. If she pops off after a few minutes, try burping her, and putting her back on that same breast so she can get to the fatty, calorie rich milk. When she is completely done with that breast, then offer the other one. When you see yellow poop, you know she is getting more of that hindmilk.

That's good that you don't use a paci. When she seems restless, instead of the paci, swing, or bouncy seat, etc., offer the breast. I would also suggest offering the breast more often for now while you are trying to get her weight up. Instead of waiting until she is crying, offer every hour. Don't force it, just offer. If she doesn't want it try again later.

I admire you for hanging in there and trusting your abilities. Many moms may have given up by now! You are doing great. Especially for having four kiddos! Keep us posted!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you all so much for the support. I really wanted to throw in the towel yesterday when I saw the scale but then I thought, I love the bond we have and we have worked too hard to quit now. I really appreciate the sweet words that I get here. It is so encouraging. I am going to call a LLL leader tomorrow.

Audrey


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
Thanks for responding. No she does not take a paci, she has kind of put herself on a schedule of 2 1/2 to 3 hours but I feed her whenever she cries basically. Her poop is mostly greenish and soaks into her diaper. Occassionaly we have a seedy, yellow bf baby poop.

I will contact a LLL leader. I have not done it before b/c I thought the problems were worked out.









Thanks
Audrey

A couple thoughts....when you say she put herself on a schedule, that's good, sounds like you are going by her cues. When you say you feed when she cries....it may be just right, depending on her personality, but it may needed/possible to nurse more often. The American Academy of Pediatrics says crying is a late sign of hunger, and that feeding cues include sucking, mouthing, or simply being alert. Some babies give a gentle little grunt/squeak when they want to nurse. Then there are those babies (like my dd and maybe yours?







) that cry more often and more easily.

If I had a question about my baby's weight, I probably wouldn't wait two and a half hours between the beginning of one feeding and the beginning of the next unless it was at night...KWIM? Unless offering more upset her that is.

I hope this rambly post made sense. Good luck!


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

I don't know how this works with low supply, but a mom in my birth group tried this when her baby had green poop. Nurse on each side twice before switching. Pump the other if you have to, but baby will get more fat & calories if you double up on one breast. The mom that told me about it had no more green poops after just a few days.

Good for you for sticking with it this long! I am so glad you have this place to come for support.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Oh my gosh yes, see a LLL Leader.

Thanks for the update. I am new to this thread but Momtwice told me to take a look.

Small greenish poops that just soak into the diaper are of course, not good enough. It sounds like you were doing well a month or so ago. I wonder what happened? It def sounds like she is only getting a little foremilk, not the full feeding she needs. How is yr breast pain now, BTW?

Do you hold her tummy to tummy when you nurse? Make sure she is turned in so she doesn't have to turn her head to get to the breast.

Until you see yr Leader, offer to nurse every hour, or several times an hour. Resume pumping and offer it by cup, dropper or even bottle.

If she seems to be in pain while nursing which makes her reluctant to nurse and pop off after a few mins, I think back to the mom who recced cranial sacral therapy. Or chiropractic. If she has spinal misalignment (can happen during birth) it might hurt her neck or jaw to bf. Go see a practitioner, it can only help!

If you resume pumping every 2 hours and there is not much there, I would ask you to consider supping with artificial baby milk again, just for a while until you restiulate your supply.

3 mos is the time for another growth spurt. Try to get her nursing more often. Some babies are too laid back for their own good. Try for every hour during the day and only have one 3 hr period at night.


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## wendygrace (Oct 16, 2003)

Keep trying! You're doing great by your baby!

I wanted to let you know that I have a strong sucker, a baby that doesn't nurse for more than 10 mintues, refuses to take both sides-ever, and gained slowly. The best advise I got was to nurse one side at least twice and then nurse the other side...and often. She is nearly 18 months now, and 20.5 lbs and now has a sign for nurse. And boy does she love to nurse. But only for a few minutes each time. What I ended up doing is nursing her all morning on my right side and all night on my left side. That way she got more of the hindmilk. Perhaps that may help. As mentioned above, the greenish poops are indicative of an imbalance. And although I look terribly lopsided throughout the day, I don't care. Noone's ever mentioned it either. The greenish poops went away but she still gained slowly. Our ped says she's fine cuz she's meeting her milestones, not getting sick and looks hydrated and energetic.

This is so very fragmented but its late for me.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I'm a BIG Dr. Sears reader, and probably a LOT of people here are too....

I read the Breastfeeding book while pumping/supplementing for ds. (I didn't discover Sears soon enough...)

If you don't sling, try it. (unless of course you've got back problems or something that prevents it.)

Let her eat as much as she likes, her 7 mins or whatever, then burp and walk around with her upright for about 20 mins. and re-offer the same breast.

Offer the same breast for a 3-4 hour period. Pump the other one once in there so you don't lose supply. This also gives you something to give her if you have to supplement. (I don't know if the first part is Sears or where I heard it, the second is me, a mom who had to do the pumping thing exclusively.)

You could also pump for a few minutes first, you'll see the milk go from watery to more milky-looking. You can then latch her on and she will get all hindmilk. Or, if you can do this (I was NOT good at it) you could just hand-express. (what I might do with that watery milk is add it in with the milk from your other breast, yeah it's not quite as fatty, but it's still a 'real milk' supplement, or save it in your freezer until this weight-gain worry is over and use it in case of separation...maybe mixed with some fattier milk if you've got it.)

Another thing I've heard of NICU moms doing--babies who need to gain weight fast--is pumping the foremilk, saving that, and then pumping the hindmilk and giving just that to the baby as supplement. That way, they're getting all 'grow milk.' (I would *assume* they are saving the other for later occasional supplementing in case of separation maybe? when it wouldn't matter so much if the baby gets one bottle that's less calorie-dense?) You could do that with the side you're not nursing on too.

Rent a hosp. grade pump, it will build and keep supply better than any other, and even at $40-$65/mo, it is cheaper than full time formula...........you will NOT regret the investment.

I would try the feeding on one side more often and other techniques before trying supplements to increase supply. Feel free to PM me if you want to know where to get dom. I took it, and it was side-effect-free for me.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Things seem to be a little better. Thanks so much for the advice. I have been doing the one side at a time thing for the last two days and it seems to be going better. Although she got one shot on Thursday and has been very sleepy and feverish. And that's another story for another thread.







:

Anyway she hadn't gone poopy since Friday but she went this morning. And it was yellow and seedy so I think we are doing better. I wasn't able to get in touch with a LLL leader over the weekend. I'm going to try again today.


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

Awesome for YOU!

Hang in there, sounds like you are turning a corner!


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Sounds like things are getting better. Some things just from personal experience that can cause weight issues are reflux and food intolerances. Evan was 15#5oz the day after his 7 mos birthday. He's right under 10% and there was at least 1 wk where he lost weight and quite a few wks he didn't gain anything or at least not 'enough'. The first week on his reflux meds helped though. We still battle it a lot, but at least we know what to look for and how to help. We also use 4ozs of formula a day and he's still not getting that fabulous weight gain, so some babies just don't gain a lot. He's also milk/soy/egg intolerant and I'm on a strict diet for that. He nurses often and I don't think he always gets the hind milk either, it's hard to make him get it though! I thought I read this somewhere, but I could be way off, lol, but maybe she was bigger at birth, she's just settling into a more natural curve for herself? Maybe she's just meant to be a smaller baby, but was born at a higher weight? Does that make sense? Evan was 7#8oz at birth and 8# at 4 wks. I don't know, but kudos for keeping at it!


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## snugglemama (Nov 29, 2001)

Hooray for yellow seedy poop!







:


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks.

*thepeach80* Yes she was big. She was 10lbs 12oz. And she was only 12lbs 3oz last week at 11 weeks. I just can't figure her out. She had a really good stool yesterday am and then all day had these little mucousy green things. I have wondered about reflux and food allergies. My 18 month old is allergic to milk and has at least a sensitivity to soy as well. And she had reflux. But I don't see the signs of relux with this one. I can't tell if she is hungry. I have tried to offer her formula yesterday and this am and she will not take it. SHe seems fussy though. BUt she has been messed up since she got her shot on Thursday. Anyway I will keep pressing on.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Some reflux symptoms:

constant or sudden crying or colic like symptoms
irritability and pain
poor sleep habits typically with frequent waking
arching their necks and back during or after eating
spitting-up or vomiting
wet burp or frequent hiccups
frequent ear infections or sinus congestion

Evan has silent reflux so it's not the obvious throwing up that some babies have. Also, he gets the green, stringy diapers when I eat something I shouldn't (mainly milk). We were giving him probiotics since he's on abx and had to stop b/c he was reacting. They say they're dairy free, but I guess there's enough in there to make him react. We don't vax, but I've often heard it can effect reflux a lot if that is a problem for her. I know anytime Evan gets sick he's miserable w/ his reflux. Evan is kinda fussy like that too sometimes, just being a baby I guess. He acts hungry and fusses and I worry he's not getting enough, but he won't take a bottle so I guess he's not that hungry? More hugs!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I know it's too late but I am kind of sad you shot her immune system right now when she is not gaining well.

Why did you not get in touch with LLL? What about calling an IBCLC (bd certified lactation consultant) as well?

You say you can't tell if she is hungry. Is she lethargic? Offer your breast every hour. You are the mom and need to be in charge of this laid back little one.

Are you pumping? Are you getting anything with the pump?


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
I know it's too late but I am kind of sad you shot her immune system right now when she is not gaining well.

Why did you not get in touch with LLL? What about calling an IBCLC (bd certified lactation consultant) as well?

You say you can't tell if she is hungry. Is she lethargic? Offer your breast every hour. You are the mom and need to be in charge of this laid back little one.

Are you pumping? Are you getting anything with the pump?

I am still unsure how I feel about vaccinating. I did only give her one shot, the DTaP which I know is more than one in and of itself. I am scared of being in that small percentage, where babies die from the diseases. I had a baby that died and it is very hard to lose a child. That has made me hypersenstive to everything having to do with my children. I am trying to do what's best for them. The decision we made was to go very slowly on the shots. We may still decide not to do anymore. I just don't know.

I have a call into a LLL leader in my area. I called her yesterday.

I saw the LC from the health dept. And at the hospital. Both were nice but really didn't see a problem with her latch or anything. I may be able to see another LC but it is about $ right now. We are on WIC and so the formula is free. It's very hard to convince my husband to spend the $ on a LC or other tools for bf when we are struggling anyway.

She will take the breast anytime. But a lot of the time, there is no swallowing. She will be gulping for about 3-4 min and then start jerking it around. But the most formula she will take after nursing is 1/2 -1 oz.

Last night she had formula at 9:30 (my MIL was watching her) and nursed for 25-30 min at 10:30. Is that b/c she was truly hungry? She seemed like she was.

Also it is still painful. I am not sure if that is b/c she is working so hard to get anything out. I'm not sure if I have a sufficient supply.

We are going to go tomorrow to weigh her and if she has not gained I am going to get a scale.

I know giving her formula is not helping my supply. But if she is hungry what else do I do? I have an 8 year old and an 18 month old at home too. And my dh is working like crazy and about to get a 2nd job too. He just by situation can not be a lot of help right now.

I don't want to quit but I don't want her to be hungry either.

Thanks for listening.

Audrey


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
I am still unsure how I feel about vaccinating. I did only give her one shot, the DTaP which I know is more than one in and of itself. I am scared of being in that small percentage, where babies die from the diseases. I had a baby that died and it is very hard to lose a child. That has made me hypersenstive to everything having to do with my children. I am trying to do what's best for them. The decision we made was to go very slowly on the shots. We may still decide not to do anymore. I just don't know.

So sorry about your loss.

Quote:

I have a call into a LLL leader in my area. I called her yesterday.
Can you put in a call to one or two more leaders? Sometimes leaders get busy in summer, go on vacation, etc. If you need help finding one, let me know your area and I can find them for you.

Quote:


I saw the LC from the health dept. And at the hospital.
I wonder if they were IBCLC? Anyone can call herself a lc. doens't mean they are truly qualified.

Quote:

She will take the breast anytime. But a lot of the time, there is no swallowing. She will be gulping for about 3-4 min
then offer offer offer.

Quote:

and then start jerking it around.
Did you try breast compression at that point?

Can your ped rec a cranial sacral or chiro practitioner?

Quote:

Last night she had formula at 9:30 (my MIL was watching her) and nursed for 25-30 min at 10:30. Is that b/c she was truly hungry?
Of course! That is a good normal nursing session and evening milk is high in fat!

Nurse that baby every hour! If you need to chase yr toddler, nurse her in a sling. Good luck.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)




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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Just wanted to pop in here and send you some hugs. You are doing a great job with your baby. Hang in there! It will get better. Sometimes it's hard to decide exactly the right thing to do, especially when you are so concerned about your little ones! It's hard to really sit down and focus on your baby when you are being interrupted by your older children (ask me how I know!!).

Keep going, it will get better!


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

I know it may not seem like it right now, but try to hang in there a little longer. It literally took us *months* to get breastfeeding established to a point where I didn't cry (and she didn't cry) *every* time we tried to nurse. After many, many weeks & many LC visits, it finally clicked for us -- if you remain determined and seek *appropriate* support (from LLL, IBCLC, and only listening to a truly breastfeeding-friendly and breastfeeding-knowledgable ped too), you can do this!

Your personal determination is one of the strongest factors/predictors of breastfeeding success!

Good job for calling that one LLL leader. You haven't heard back - that's frustrating! Now get on the phone to EVERY LLL leader in a 1-hr radius of where you live - call them ALL today, leave EACH of them messages, and explain your dire situation, that you're supplementing w/ formula b/c it's free from WIC, that you've got 3 kids and little breastfeeding support. Request that if they cannot call you back today to please refer you to someone who *can* help you today. Don't just call, leave a message, and wait -- CALL 'EM ALL, in succession! Let them know you need help ASAP!!! Same w/ IBCLCs in your area - call, tell them your situation, that you need free or very low cost help (let them know you're on WIC). I'm sure someone will talk to you out of that group of people (LLL leaders, IBCLCs)... seriously!

Also, the formula thing is hard - SUCH a double-edged sword. Triple-edged, really. YES, it's hard to worry if your child is hungry. But unless you're double pumping w/ a great pump EVERY time you formula feed her, you're only making things more difficult regarding breastfeeding, for BOTH her and you... it's an extremely slippery slope. Try to look at formula like medicine, or like your enemy right now. It's tempting, cheap, and compared to your current bf struggles, I'm sure it seems "easy." But right now, it's robbing you and your baby of another opportunity to try to get breastfeeding to work. (Obviously, if you just chose to formula feed, you don't look at it as the enemy. But right NOW, given your BF challenges, try to stay away from the stuff!!!)

As far as it being easy to go to WIC and get free formula (and your dh needs to be reminded of this, too): cheap is sometimes really expensive.

Sure, it may be free now. But at what risk to your baby? Do you have a baby that will be allergic to BOTH cow and soy, who might have to be put on super-expensive-hypo-allergenic stuff that tastes like garbage? Will your baby be one who ends up w/ one of the long term health issues that are far more common among formula fed babies? I am NOT saying this to you for guilt -- so PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT THAT WAY. I am just saying that sometimes the easy thing to do isn't the BEST thing or HEALTHIEST thing to do.

So if your dh says "an LC is too expensive" you could always counter with "breastfeeding might seem expensive now, but formula feeding will likely be a whole lot more costly in the long run!"

OK, after re-reading what I wrote, I know I'm taking a big risk by posting this because it's possible that my message will be misconstrued as guilt-inducing when it is NOT NOT NOT meant this way. I am just trying to support your side of things because it seems like you may not be getting the support you need from family and friends and professionals when it comes to breastfeeding. So, FOR THE RECORD, THIS IS NOT ABOUT GUILT! Your mothering is a huge combination of things, and however you end up feeding your baby, I'm sure you are a loving and caring mother --> please know that I support you in your struggle!!!

And remember, Mother Nature is on your side - 95% of women CAN breastfeed, so 95% chance says that YOU, too, can breastfeed. Keep fighting for it!!! Go get 'em, girl!!!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I think it is always important to point out the benefits of bfing to moms who are teetering on the brink of caving in!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

*miziki* I totally didn't take your comments in a bad way. I am here at mothering b/c I know people feel the way you do. I want to be constantly reminded that I am doing the right thing. I need that. Because I have ff two children, it is hard to not just fall there out of pure exhaustion with this situation. So thank you for being honest.

I called three LLL leaders yesterday and none returned my call. Maybe everyone's on vacation?









We went back to the ped today and she had gained 2 oz in 7 days. Better but still concerning. So I went ahead with the bloodwork. And we will go back again in a week. But I feel like I am making progress with my ped b/c he did not even mention supplementing anymore. I told him she does not want formula. He said she may just be gaining slowly but he wanted to be on the safe side with the tests. And that while it is sad to let her get stuck, I think I will feel better knowing nothing else is causing the slow weight gain.

My doula gave me the name of a really good IBCLC and she is also on the LLL leagues website for being a 25 year leader so she is probably pretty good. I am going to call her and plead my financial case and see if she will help me maybe at a discount.

Thanks so much for the support here. I really appreciate and need it.

Audrey


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

to you Audrey!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

OK so after 7 tries, I finally got a LLL leader on the phone. Her advice was to nurse every hour and half or so and she also said it sounds like we need to work on our latch. So she invited me to the next mtg which isn't until Aug 2 but she said she will call me in a couple of days and if things aren't better she will meet with me sooner. She said the first thing is to have the baby eat more often. She was really nice and talked to me for about 30min.

Audrey


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Audrey, you're doing *amazing* work, and I know it's really hard! But you ARE doing it! YAY, YOU!







(And I'm glad my previous post didn't offend you because that was the last, _last_, *LAST* thing it was intended to do!)

Congrats on calling all of those LLL folks - I know it's frustrating when you don't get a callback in a situation like this. I am glad you actually got to talk to one LLL leader, _and if you need it, take her up on her offer to see you if you think it would help!!!_ She wouldn't have offered if she didn't mean it, and if you need the help, jump at the chance to take it. Seriously. Also, if you can arrange to attend that LLL meeting on Aug 2, BE THERE! It really helps to SEE other moms in real life who are in different stages of breastfeeding and to HEAR others struggles and experiences and tips. You will ideally feel supported there! And try as many LLL groups as you need to in order to find one that you like - every group has a different flavor.

As for the IBCLC and long-time LLL leader that your doula recommended... HOLY COW, CALL and TALK TO THIS WOMAN ASAP! She sounds (by her credentials at least) to be an incredible resource, and truthfully, I'd be shocked if she wouldn't help you. Let her know how incredibly hard you're trying to and wanting to keep your nursing relationship going and how financially you can't afford to pay for help, and my goodness, if I were in her shoes, I'd talk to you or see you or SOMETHING. And if, for some odd reason, she won't see/talk to you for free, ask her for a referral to someone who will help for free. But yeah, call this woman... don't be afraid to call multiple times - you are doing important work here and need all the support you can get!









Man, I must sound like a horrific pest w/ all of my urging you to "call them all, frequently, until you get someone!" suggestions. I just remember from those first few months w/ nursing my dd how I needed to make sure I got help - no one was going to do it for me - soooo many calls and visits (and when you're so exhausted)... ugh! I just went down the list of LLL, IBCLCs, etc., until I found willing helpers. And truly, attending breastfeeding-supportive group meetings, like LLL and API or your local "crunchy mom" playgroup can be really helpful too.

You are making great efforts, Audrey! I'm cheering for you here from the sidelines (can you hear me whooping and celebrating for every nursing session and every oz gained?!!).







Keep at it!

A word on formula: obviously, you know to do what you need to keep your baby healthy. Formula has it's place - just remain aware of how it can screw with your milk supply and your nursing relationship - use it as sparingly as you can to keep her healthy. Do you know about (or can you get) a SNS (supplemental nursing system) , it would be ideal to use this until you're sure your babe is gaining well and you're producing a good milk supply. Lact-aid Nursing Trainer and Medela SNS (link to instructions, long, but good pics + info on "slow gaining babies") are two common, well-known brands (here's a review from an adoptive mom who relactated ). If you are nursing very frequently _and_ your baby is _still_ hungry, when you feel that you sparingly need to use formula, you can at least keep your babe at the breast w/ an SNS _and_ you both can still benefit from her suckling (this stimulates your supply, keeps her used to getting milk from the boob vs from the bottle, and hopefully she'll be getting breastmilk mixed in w/ formula too).

Maybe check on eBay for various prices (some cheaper than $5), or ask the doula/LLL leader/IBCLC if they know where to get one locally, hopefully for free or for cheap. Shoot, ask on MDC Giving/Trading Post! (Wish I had one to send you!)

OK, I've gone on waaaay too long. I wouldn't blame you for stopping 3 paragraphs ago!







Hang in there


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

When I had major nursing problems, I did have to supplement. I just did it like this, nurse, then supplement, then pump. The pumping is very important. And it worked, I brought my supply up and went to full-time nursing by 11 weeks. This was with twins though, I never had problems with my singletons, one twin had a very weak suck and needed to mature still.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Things are going well today. I have woken her up every 1 1/2 to 2 hours and nursed her. Should I start pumping too? Or wait and see if this helps first? ALso I have been very mindful of our latch the pain is decreasing.

Audrey


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

I really wouldn't pump in addition to nursing every 1.5 hr if she's not taking the bottle that well (plus your latch on concerns), because I really feel it sounds a lot like a hindmilk problem. So if you pump after she nurses you'll be getting the hindmilk for her but if she's not taking the bottle then she's still not getting it and will continue to have foremilk lactose dumping (ie. the watery, mucousy, grassy green stools) and gas issues which will make her uncomfortable and less interested in eating (even though she's hungry) which will only make the whole thing swing back full circle again and again until it spirals into your milk supply dropping off.

I would just stick with nursing every 1.5-2 hrs (probably doing 2 feedings per side before switching breasts) until the poops and latch-on issues are resolved before adding pumping and a bottle/cup to the equation. She will empty the breast much better than even the most efficent pumps, so it's better to just let her learn to nurse it out--it might be a stuggle but it's worth it--and save pumping and bottles/cups for when you have to be away from her. But that's just my 2 cents based on my experience...


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

If you feel like your milk supply is diminishing or is in jepordy, then I would pump. If not, then just keep nursing her as much as possible and for as long as possible. Pumping is just not as good as the real deal, kwim? Maybe other mommies will have another thought on that.

Wow. I'm very proud of you! I feel like once you get past this we need to throw you a party for all your effort (and for all your little one's effort, too!)!
I'm continuing to think of you and your babe. I can't wait for you to get past this and to have accomplished all of this, and be able to really enjoy every single moment of nursing. You will not regret this in any way!!!

Way to go, Audrey!

Shannon


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

We X-posted, CJNeeley! Glad to see you're thinking the same thing!


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## wendygrace (Oct 16, 2003)

Just wanted to keep supporting you and remind you to drink your water and eat oatmeal if you can. Both really good for a healthy momma. Keep on it! You are doing great!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

I have great news!! I went to the IBCLC today, who by the way has been doing this for 30 years, and she was so great. She comes very highly recommended here. I spoke with her on the phone yesterday for an hour. I told her my issues and the financial issues as well. So after tqalking with me she felt like I was very serious about this and offered her services for whatever I could afford!








SO I went this morning and specnt about 2 1/2 hours with her. She said for one thing my baby looks and acts great!! She said this is not the typical non gaining baby. SHe does have some concerns.

1. Recessed chin
2. tongue tied (minor)
3. There is a name for this but I forgot it but it's when her lips are too tight to her gums?
4. Bubble pallate

All of this is creating a shallow latch which she saw. And helped me to begin correcting. When my nipple comes out it is flat. So she gave me different things to try and also sent her findings to my ped who I am going to see on Thursday. She weighed the baby and then we nursed and then she weighed her again and she only ate a little over an ounce. She didn't seem to be overly concerned about that. She said that we should continue to watch the weight gain but that she looks great. She said I just need to insure she is getting the hindmilk. And she suggested pumping if need be after I nurse and giving that to her on the next feeding to insure she gets that hindmilk.

I think we are doing better already b/c her diapers are starting to look better. I think I am going to cut down on dairy as well b/c we do have an allergy history.

Thanks
Audrey


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

WOO-HOO!!!






























Audrey, you rock.









Your persistence and determination are paying off, and BIG! I am so thrilled that you got in touch w/ the IBCLC and that she was able to spend some quality time w/ you and your baby AND assess your baby's physiology as well as yours, actually watch how nursings were going, etc., etc. I am *SO* glad that she was able to help!!! That you feel good about how things went! That she was able to give some more insight into what's happening w/ getting this breastfeeding relationship off the ground!

I remember when I was _finally_ evaluated by a great LC (who it took me *many* calls/weeks to finally find, just like what you've been going through!)... she explained that my flat nipples + my dd's high palate + overactive letdown + some other stuff was what we needed to work on... It made me finally feel like I wasn't just making it up, the difficulty w/ breastfeeding - and that I finally had HELP, a specific plan to deal with it, I knew what to watch for (for us it involved using a nipple shield for a few weeks). I can't tell you how many other LCs missed all of these things for us - not all LCs are created equally. I'm so glad you have a GREAT one behind you!

YAY YAY YAY for you!!!

Now... Don't be discouraged if I tell you to keep up this determination for a few more weeks - breastfeeding may not get immediately "easy" but these things WILL resolve & get better, I promise! If you can just take each day as it comes, continue nursing, and hang in there for like 3 more weeks, you will probably have this whole nursing thing figured out, and so will your dd.

Bottom line: You're almost through this! And it may not take you that long (3 weeks was just my experience), either - it may come much faster for you. But just knowing what you're working with (dd's bubble palate, etc.), what to look for (how to get a good latch specifically for you two), and that you have someone who knows your story (your awesome LC!) and is, thankfully, a breastfeeding specialist who is happy to help you... that's HUGE HUGE HUGE SUCCESS!

Congrats, Audrey - and keep up the fantastic (and sometimes tiring right now, but _really_ worth it!) work!!!









P.S. - This whole thread is why I think *every* pediatrician should be REQUIRED to either have an IBCLC on staff during regular business hours OR, preferably, it should be a part of pediatric training. A requirement to get your freakin' MD! Don't you think it's outrageous that we go to pediatricians w/ our newborns, yet the vast majority of them can't even diagnose breastfeeding issues -- breastfeeding being the intended, exclusive nutrition for infants for the first 6 months of life (ideally)?? OK, not trying to hijack this support thread w/ a rant about underinformed pediatricians... Just makes me mad that that Audrey, and I, and so many other mamas I know have had to HUNT for good breastfeeding support. Not knocking LLL here. I just think BF should be something that peds should HAVE to know how to support. OK, end of rant.


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## DeepGreen29 (Mar 25, 2005)

Audrey,

I found this thread today and read it all.....and I got to the end and I was seriously teary-eyed.

You have shown such wonderful mama instincts throughout this entire thing. I'm so happy to see that you were able to meet with a knowlegdeable person who could identify some issues for you that you can actually work on!

All the mamas who posted were also super sweet and supportive! way to go all!
I wish you all the luck in the world for you and your children..

those are some lucky babies.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:

It made me finally feel like I wasn't just making it up, the difficulty w/ breastfeeding - and that I finally had HELP, a specific plan to deal with it, I knew what to watch for (for us it involved using a nipple shield for a few weeks). I can't tell you how many other LCs missed all of these things for us - not all LCs are created equally
That is so true. I was beginning to think as my ped said "some women just can't breastfeed." and I must have been one of them. Through all this I have realized how mislead we are about bf. We go and blindy obey dr's orders, if I had done that we would have stopped weeks ago.

I felt like I must not be adequate enough. It hurt so bad that I began to think I was a wimp. Especially after the 1st two LC and two peds said everything was fine. No one was able to diagnose these issues before.

The LC yesterday said with her palate combined with her lips and tongue so tight that the only way we are able to bf right now is that I have very long nipples.







:

*miziki* I appreciate you sharing your struggles. We need to hear that we are not the only ones. You look at these pics of women bf and it looks so perfect. And we need to know it takes time and energy.

I can tell a difference already. For the last 24 hours I have been really looking at our latch and correcting it and it is already feeling better. And I seem to be meeting her needs more. And the closeness is even more b/c I am paying so much attention to her and not just watching the clock waiting for her to be done b/c it hurts.









I totally agree with you about the pediatricians. It makes me mad that I have been on my own with them. They have offered ZERO bf support. And obviously encouraged me to actually QUIT!!!







It makes me think how many women are told "some women just can't bf and you're one of them." I'm sure there are circumstances that cannot be fixed. But in my case, I have a healthy, happy baby who is just slow on the weight gain. Yes it concerns me but why if she is alreay concerning me would I QUIT BF HER???? That seems like the last thing I would do. And not only did the ped not offer support, they did not tell me where to get it. This awesome IBCLC is 5 min from my ped office. It blows my mind that the AAP says to nurse for at least one year and then their dr's don't know anything about bf.

BTW, I am still looking for another ped but the ones I have found that are supportive of AP are just too far away. So I am still looking. Until then I am going to hold my ground about no more vacs (I am very angry with myself for caving on that issue) and I am going to continue to try to educate him about bf.

I just want to say thank you for all the support that I have gotten here. I probably would have given up if I had not found this board with all these wonderfully supportive women.

Thanks
Audrey


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

*DeepGreen29* Thank you so much for dropping in and showing your support.


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

You are sooooooo COOL for sticking to your guns and hanging in there!!!!

Hooray!!!
















I wish every mommy could have suport like MOthering right around the corner at 5 am or 10 pm when the babby hasn't latched on right "again" and DH suggests just giving him a bottle so you can get some rest and you are just so confused and tired and helpless!!!!

I can't tell you how great it is to read a success(well on your way to success if not already there yet! LOL!) story in the midst of all the quotes of " I couldn't nurse, I didn't have enough milk" or "my milk dried up", or "it was harder than bottle feeding" or "sore nipples" or "I coudn't get enough sleep at night and it seemed like she was nursing like crazy"(this woman's baby was just 6 wks old and going thru a growth spurt when she finally gave up, I was so sad for her little girl)

Such simple answers for these "problems" and yet no question about it Dr, MIL, DH, the neighbor down the street, auntie and total strangers had more to do with giving in to the pressures of Formula feeding than just a few kind words of encouragement, some GOOD basic BF info, and a "real" person to check latch on would have done so much for all these babies and more.

If this is not enough for us to take a stand and get a law passed to make it illegal to pass med school or nursing school, or for every Medical professional that comes in contact with new mothers and babies, without a
BASIC BFing Course,
I don't know what is!

Formula is robbing our great great grandchildren of so much that they deserve.


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## Bad Mama Jama (May 29, 2005)

My heart goes out to you. I am a mama breastfeeding after a breast reduction and I know about weight gain issues. The formula-oriented peds are just butt cheeks. Continue your quest to find one who lines up with your beliefs.

My babe is 6 months and weights about 13# and 14 oz. and her FORMER ped always pushed the formula. Notice the word FORMER. My dd is developing at a wonderful rate. She meets her milestones and everything. Everytime I went there I just wanted to shout at the old ped, "She's fine! Leave us the hell alone!"

But then I remembered, I can leave so I did. Take heart and I wish you nothing but the best on your journey...


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Audrey, I am sooooo proud of you for not just taking your ped's advice! It's a slippery slope . . . soon you'll be questioning _everything_ you hear (and possibly everything you thought you knew about everything







), but it is so worth it. It's wonderful how our children can be catalysts for a complete mind-shift








I'm also so happy for you that things are going better!

It just makes me really sad though to think how many other women and babies this ped has negatively affected - not just directly, but through his patients influencing their friends as well. I truly believe that someday docs will be better educated as a whole about breastfeeding (and many many other issues). I just wish it was so right now.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
That is so true. I was beginning to think as my ped said "some women just can't breastfeed." and I must have been one of them. Through all this I have realized how mislead we are about bf. We go and blindy obey dr's orders, if I had done that we would have stopped weeks ago.


...but you didn't! Do you know how FABULOUS you are?!?!







I am seriously cheering out loud for you here in the midwest - too bad you can't hear me! Your mama instincts and your determination... you are a wonderful example.









Quote:

I felt like I must not be adequate enough. It hurt so bad that I began to think I was a wimp. Especially after the 1st two LC and two peds said everything was fine. No one was able to diagnose these issues before.

The LC yesterday said with her palate combined with her lips and tongue so tight that the only way we are able to bf right now is that I have very long nipples.







:
AAARRRGHH! You are MORE than adequate, not a wimp at all! I'm so sorry you had to go through this. It's simply maddening that this seems to happen so frequently - I know that you and I aren't the only 2 moms who've been through this maze.







: I'm just glad we both were finally able to connect w/ good LCs in our areas. And hey, let's hear it for long nipples - maybe your body anticipated that you'd have a babe w/ that special combo of palate/lips/tongue!









Quote:

*miziki* I appreciate you sharing your struggles. We need to hear that we are not the only ones. You look at these pics of women bf and it looks so perfect. And we need to know it takes time and energy.








:

No problem - you are definitely NOT alone, even though it can *really* feel that way (how well I remember, too)! And now you will be able to share your struggles AND _*your success*_ - other new BF mamas will be inspired by you! And don't hesitate to give out your good LC's name. Even if you couldn't pay her, your word-of-mouth recommendation and sending business her way will be a win-win for both your LC and any new BF mama that needs help.







Oh yeah, and I'd definitely sing the praises of this LC at your next ped visit - let him know there's a fantastic, competent LC just minutes away to whom he should consider referring patients who are having BF struggles INSTEAD of recommending they quit nursing. Say it as nicely, innocently as you can, and bring a stack of her business cards to leave for your ped, if your LC has them available!

Quote:

I can tell a difference already. For the last 24 hours I have been really looking at our latch and correcting it and it is already feeling better. And I seem to be meeting her needs more. And the closeness is even more b/c I am paying so much attention to her and not just watching the clock waiting for her to be done b/c it hurts.








I'm so thrilled to hear this - it will keep getting easier like this! This means that YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH! You'll just keep getting better at this, and one day not too far away, you'll be floored by how you just had a hassle-free nursing session that you were multitasking through. YEAH!

Quote:

I totally agree with you about the pediatricians. It makes me mad that I have been on my own with them. They have offered ZERO bf support. And obviously encouraged me to actually QUIT!!!







It makes me think how many women are told "some women just can't bf and you're one of them." I'm sure there are circumstances that cannot be fixed. But in my case, I have a healthy, happy baby who is just slow on the weight gain. Yes it concerns me but why if she is alreay concerning me would I QUIT BF HER???? That seems like the last thing I would do. And not only did the ped not offer support, they did not tell me where to get it. This awesome IBCLC is 5 min from my ped office. It blows my mind that the AAP says to nurse for at least one year and then their dr's don't know anything about bf.
Yes, yes, a million times yes. The illogic of it astounds and angers and saddens me too.







I'm just glad you were able to wade through the muck.

Quote:

BTW, I am still looking for another ped but the ones I have found that are supportive of AP are just too far away. So I am still looking. Until then I am going to hold my ground about no more vacs (I am very angry with myself for caving on that issue) and I am going to continue to try to educate him about bf.
As far as your ped goes, yeah it'd be nice to switch if you can, but if you can't for whatever reason, just realize that your ped isn't always dispensing MEDICAL information. Yes, some ped's knowledge is medical, scientific, accurate. But some of it is JUST PLAIN PERSONAL OPINION, and I want to strangle those peds who try to pass off "personal opinion" as "great medical advice." Just be on the lookout if you continue to see this ped - use 'em for what YOU want done - don't let them push crappy opinion on you, or loads of antibiotics, or tons of vaxes at the same time or really early on (if you decide to vax). Don't hesitate to say "no, not right now, thanks" and find 2nd opinions if something sounds off, etc. Just like you did w/ the "BF advice to stop nursing." Keep your guard up, in other words - your know this peds limitations.

Quote:

I just want to say thank you for all the support that I have gotten here. I probably would have given up if I had not found this board with all these wonderfully supportive women.










A, if you feel up to it, keep us posted on how things are going! Not only are we here to support ya through the difficult times, but we're here to celebrate with you, too, through those beginning BF milestones as things get easier and easier. I'm soooo proud of you for hanging in there and working so hard at this!









Gotta run - my toddler is stirring...


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks so much for your continued support.

I went back to the ped today. She was up to 12lbs 7oz, 2oz up from last week. And he looked at her frenulums. He said the top lip wasn't too bad in his opinion, but the tongue and the bottom lip are bad. The bottom lip's frenulum is really wide and think and it makes her lip almost completely connected to her gum, with no space in between. Also she has a huge knot on the inside of her gum and he thinks that has to do with the tngue tied issue as well. I am just so iiritated b/c he missed this for three months but so did the first ped we saw too. And it is something that runs in our family and I asked them both about it and they both blew me off.

Anyway he is going to refer me to an ENT of our choice, so I am waiting on the LC to call me back with a name.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

I wanted to also let ya'll know that I have an apt with the ENT today and I am really nervous about it. I know it is for the best to get the frenulum(s?) clipped but **** I am not happy about the pain involved.

Also I went back to my LC yesterday and she is so awesome. She called to check on me. And then called to find out which ENT I should use. And then she wanted me to try a new flange for a pump that she just got at a conference. SO I went to her house and I ended up leaving with a hospital grade pump, a Lactina kit and even bigger flanges that fit me. I was with her for another hour and half too. Now keep in mind I have not paid this woman a dime!

I did offer her some landscaping b/c my husband owns his own company. So he is going to do her yard for a while to repay her. It is just such a blessing to find someone who cares so much about this to help me.

Thanks


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## wtchyhlr (Oct 15, 2002)

Now see, stories like this just warm my heart. So glad you got the help you need, and let us know how the ENT appt goes....


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

:


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Well that was easy enough. They clipped the frenulum under her tongue. He almost didn't want to do it in the office b/c it was so thick but then he decided it was ok. And it was it took about 30 sec and then she nursed better instantly!!!























It felt so different and I can tell it feels different for her too. She keeps sticking her tongue out.

The ENT thought the two lip frenulums were ok. He said he wasn't worried about them. He did ask me why I waited so long to come in.














I said I have been advocating for my baby before she was even born but no one would listen. He said they often do it very early, withing the first couple of days of life.

And he also said he would like to look at my 19 month old as well.

So we are going to have a nursing weekend and I am going to use this hospital grade pump and try to increase my milk supply and work on her latch. But it is already so much better. I actually had to look down at her in the dr's office to see if she was still latched on. And she was. I guess I have just gotten so used to the pain.

Thanks


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

WOW!! Good for you!!!























Hooray!!!!!









I'm going to have to mention that to a friend who's baby girl is slipping off her nipples, she's 5 wks old and she says it still hurts to nurse









maybe at least she'll go in for a look see at the LC here in town...

Thanks so much for letting us in on your wonderful story!

What a relief!!!!

Hooray!!!!


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

Those are HAPPY TEARS!!!!!

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## HappyNewMama (Jul 12, 2003)

I haven't been following this thread--just came across it today....but I wanted to say congratulations to you and your babe! It's so great to hear a true success story...and I'm proud of you for sticking with nursing even though it was painful and difficult--and trying to find answers & ways to make it work instead of giving up.








All of your children are lucky to have you as their mama. Congratulations and I hope you enjoy a long happy nursing relationship!


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyNewMama*
I haven't been following this thread--just came across it today....but I wanted to say congratulations to you and your babe! It's so great to hear a true success story...and I'm proud of you for sticking with nursing even though it was painful and difficult--and trying to find answers & ways to make it work instead of giving up.








All of your children are lucky to have you as their mama. Congratulations and I hope you enjoy a long happy nursing relationship!









:


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

i have been lurking, and i am so glad to hear the latest news! my son had his under the tongue frenulum clipped at 8 mos. the one that connected his upper lip to his gums was not cut, but when he was a toddler he fell and it ripped, and finally at about 18 mos, nursing finally stopped hurting me! he was a slow gainer, one ped called him FTT, but he WAS thriving, he walked at 9 mos and rode a skateboard at 12 mos. he most certainly thrived, he just gained slowly. you did great! now that dd has a whole new latch to try out, you want to avoid artificial nipples more than ever, so ditch the bottles once and for all if you have not already. use a plain old spoon if you must. you know those old fashioned medicine spoons that held fluid in the handle part? those work ok, too. or even a medicine syringe. i used to be a nanny for a BF baby. she never took a bottle, so for mos i had to feed her EBM with a medicine syringe. if you must leave dd w/g'ma again, give her a lesson in spoon feeding first, and make sure she doesnt have any bottles in the cupboard. some g'ma's can be a bit naughty, hopefully yours isnt. lol great job!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

OK ladies here's my most recent news.

We are doing better I guess.

Just to recap...
Here's the weight gain...
Birth- 10lbs 12oz
2 days- 10lbs 1oz
2 weeks- 10lbs 8oz
4 weeks- 10lbs 12oz
6 weeks- 11lbs 5 oz (after 5 days of supplementing)
7 weeks- 12lbs 2oz
11 weeks- 12 lbs 3 oz
12 weeks 12lbs 5oz
13 weeks 12lb 7oz
14 weeks 12lbs 8oz (after getting frenulum clipped, and having a nursing weekend and pumping with a hospital grade pump)
15 weeks 12lbs 15 oz
















So that last weight was today. I think I may never go back to the ped regardless if I have another one or not. You can see her weight is up. Over the weekend I noticed her arms beginning to look wrinkly and she was just becoming increasingly fussy. So we started supplementing with a little formula. It has gradually increased to today she had a total of 12oz.

So of course she gained weight when we went to the dr. He was very happy about it. We were discussing what I had been doing and such. He told me that she was losing more calories by nursing than she was getting from the breastmilk. He also said he hates to be the one to tell me, but I should just stop nursing. Then we are discussing the fact that she is 3 months old and has started rolling across the room already and is scooting backwards. I said something to the effect that my dh thinks it's b/c she's breastfed that she is so advanced. And he says something to the effect that it is only by the grace of God that she is doing as well cognitively as she is considering that she was malnourished when we were not giving her formula. Now I am a Christian. And I see God's hand in this situation. But not in this way. I think God gave me this baby and the breasts I have to nurse her with. I think God sent me here and helped me find this amazing LC that I have been working with for free. I am just so upset by his attitude. He basically said the formula is putting weight on her so why continue to nurse?

Also he was falling all over himself b/c he knows this is all b/c of her being tongue tied. He was talking about how hard it is to see in a baby and how he just sent a newborn to the ENT last week for it just to be safe.

I am just so ill b/c my supply seems to be permanently compromised by not getting enough stimulation for three months. I have been nursing, pumping, nursing, pumping, etc. to no avail. We did a weigh/feed/weigh again at the LC today and she took in 1 oz. And it was a typical nursing. She gets a little more than that first thing in the am I think. I did start the fenugreek/blessed thistle combo today and my wonderful LC gave me a starter SNS to use to see if that would make a difference.

But why would I quit? I feel like some mommy milk is better than none!!

So anyway the last two feeding today she nursed and then took 4oz of formula each time. But I am going to just continue to nurse every two hours if not a little sooner even if she needs a little formula too.

The other thing with the ped today was he commented on how she is behind on her shots. And I said I haven't really thought about it. He said, you need to start thinking about it. And I said well in between nursing and pumping and supplementing to feed my baby, I haven't had much time to do so. I've been a little busy trying to sustain my child. It's just so sad that he is so uneducated and we didn't get the help we needed before. We may have been ok if we had the frenulum clipped to begin with. She nurses beautifully now.

Thanks for helping me out. I may just have to supplement for the remainder of our nursing relationship. But as long as we have nursing relationship I think we are definitely better off.

Audrey


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

I'm so impressed with how you've hung in there! I agree that some breastmilk is way better than none so even if you continue to need to supplement there's no reason to quit nursing IMO. Plus, you'll be starting solids within a few months or so anyway and may be able to give up the formula then if not before. Did you ever do the nursing weekend? That really did work for me when my son was 11 weeks.

I didn't read every reply, but did anyone suggest Domperidone? You can still order it from out of the country or get it at a compounding pharmacy. It's supposed to be really good stuff for increasing milk supply.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

If I haven't done so before, may I just mention that....

YOU ROCK, MAMA!!






































I know you have had a hard road to walk to get to the point you are at now. I so admire your dedication!









And





















to your ped.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

I just saw this thread and wanted to let you know that I understand how you feel. My little girl (who has the same name as yours), did not nurse well for the first 12 weeks of her life. She had a very small mouth and a very shallow latch. I finally gave up and pumped EBM for 11 weeks. She did get some formula (when I did not produce enough) but never more than 1 bottle a day. It was very difficult to pump (for 20 minutes at a time) 7 to 8 times a day and in the middle of the night.

I also have a 3 year old son (who nursed with no problems for 3 years) and all of this just made me crazy and exhausted me. I finally "hit a wall" when she was 3 months old and just took her to bed for 3 days and taught her to breastfeed. It worked since she had grown and was old enough to learn how to latch on deeper.

Keep up the work breastfeeding. It might get better as she gets older. If you can have someone watch your other child for a day or two and try to go to bed and nurse on demand for hours on end. That is the only thing that ended my pumping and supplementing. Even if she only takes in 1 ounce at a time, if she does it 20 times in one day then she gets enough with no bottles.

Good luck. Keep us updated. I know how hard it can be! Hugs dear!


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Keep on keepin' on, girl - yay for getting the SNS, too, as this means that for the rare times you supplement w/ formula, you can at least benefit from the suckling/nipple stimulation so that your body knows to produce more milk.









I second the suggestions for galactogues like tinctures, oatmeal, stout beer, and if you can get it, domperidone.







Also, never underestimate the effectiveness of skin-to-skin time while sleeping, nursing marathons in whatever chunks of time you can get (even if it's just 3 hours at a time, or very cool if you can get a whole weekend!), and FREQUENT frequent frequent nursing.

You have done such a FANTASTIC job so far - and I know parts of it are exhausting right now, but I am so happy for your progress and pride in being able to nurse your dd.







YAY! You *are* doing this!

As for your ped --> RUN RUN RUN AWAY FROM THIS GUY!























He clearly screwed you in the first place when he didn't catch the frenulum thing and chose the easy way out ("stop nursing, just FF").







What a colossal sh*t he is... and then to know you actually DID get real, accurate medical info from your LC and to *STILL* be spouting his lies about your not being able to nurse?







I hate to tell you, but this doc is NOT a supporter of breastfeeding.







I'd leave him too!!!!! That guy is UNREAL - his audacity and ego?!? It's UNETHICAL, imo! If you can muster it (and w/ feeding + pumping + and just mothering in general, I know you may be too busy for something like this), I'd write a little letter. Here's my letter (therapeutic for me, and I'm not even experiencing this first-hand!!!):

Dear [Incredibly Irresponsible and Reprehensible Pediatrician],

Effective immediately, my daughter and I are leaving your practice because of the shockingly poor care we have continued to receive from you. My hope is that by sharing the specifics of our dissatisfaction with your care, you might take steps to improve your knowledge and thus learn to provide better, more responsible care for your future patients:

1) Inability to diagnose infant physical conditions such as tight frenulum that can severely affect the breastfeeding relationship, a relationship which the AAP and WHO clearly state is a very important health issue that should be protected, supported, and encouraged

2) Lack of thoroughness in researching my daughter's feeding/weight gain issue -- specifically, the responsible action would have been to refer us to a specialist (LC or breastfeeding medicine dr or LLL group) instead of dismissing my concerns and my efforts to continue to breastfeed

3) Gross lack of medical support for, and your persistent and irresponsible dissemination of incorrect information about, infant feeding methods and the risks of not breastfeeding

These are the main reasons we are leaving your practice. I feel obligated to inform new breastfeeding mothers of your poor medical knowlege and lack of support for the mother/infant breastfeeding dyad so as to prevent your bad medical opinions from injuring even more nursing relationships.

Please do the right thing: educate yourself by attending one of the well-respected Physician's Seminars on Breastfeeding (http://www.lalecheleague.org/ed/PhysSem.html) that occur each year. These seminars provide accurate information on breastfeeding so that you will be able to HELP, not harm, your future infant patients succeed in getting the breastmilk the deserve, as breastmilk is the undisputed best nutrition possible for babies.

Starting today, however, before any seminar or before you tell any other mother to "stop breastfeeding" ever again, please *at minimum* refer a struggling mom for breastfeeding support:

* medical support - the nearest IBCLC [insert the name and contact info of your excellent LC here] provides accurate, current, & compassionate breastfeeding medicine support

* social support - La Leche League of [your town] provides mother-to-mother support & current breastfeeding information

Even if *you*don't personally care about or believe in the *risks of NOT breastfeeding* for infants, there are qualified, informed professionals and support groups who DO care, are informed, and CAN help new mothers through the problems that can arise during that initial learning curve for breastfeeding.

Sincerely,
Audrey
The Amazing Nursing Mama IN SPITE OF Her Very Ignorant Ped's Bad Advice

Ahhh, that feels better now (my blood was boiling when I read your last update about his latest "advice")!

Seriously --- you are doing such a WONDERFUL job! You have made huge strides and you are continuing in the right direction. As pp's have pointed out, you have a really good chance of being able to ditch the formula-supp over time. And w/ the SNS, I think your chances of getting to exclusive breastmilk are even higher. And even if you would have to supplement 50/50, the fact that dd is getting to nurse at your breast is FABULOUS and healthy for both of you!!!









I love hearing your updates - thanks for checking in and letting us know how it's going. Again, SO SO SO HAPPY FOR YOU, celebrating your strides, and really proud of your determination and dedication!









Sending big hugs!!!,
-M


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Ya'll are cracking me up!!

We did do the nursing weekend. 2 or 3 weekends ago. I can't even remember now, all my days run together. It didn't seem to really up my milk supply. But it did teach her how to nurse after her clipping and she is nursing much better. I used the SNS this am. I am not seeing this work out at all. She hated it!!! She could feel it I guess and she could see it I know and she was crazy mad. I kept trying for about 20 min and finally took it off and gave her some formula with a bottle. Then pumped and got about a half an oz. I would rather pump then make her so mad at the breast that she doesn't want it at all.







But I will try it later today and probably first thing in the morning as well. I can't tell a difference yet with the fenugreek and blessed thissel but it hasn't even been 24 hours yet. The other thing that is now in the mix is that we just put our house on the market so that will be a little added stress. Although of course feeding my child is way more important at this point.

That letter is hilarious and so so true!!


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## ceilydhmama (Mar 31, 2003)

Oh - that is a good letter!! Miziki







I found it therapuetic too









As another nursing mum who had a rough start - I just wanted to congratulate you and say keep hanging in there Audrey









We were 3 months of pumping, sns, galactogues etc. But honestly, it wasn't until I snuggled into bed with dd for several relaxed, lovely days that nursing really *worked* for us. Up until that point she was sick, then I was sick, then I was stressed, and she was stressed and finally I just lost faith in my body...

Shutting out the Drs, the weighings, the good advice and just being skin to skin with my baby with no distractions was just so important.

Good luck to you


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Another big







here.









Another thing, I spent a lot of time really exhausted in the early days of nursing. Remember that your body is readjusting and possibly recovering from the pregnancy and birth, too, in addition to putting out the nutrition in your milk.

Galactogogues are great, but you need to have FOOD. I found that I didn't stop feeling panicky and super tired until I upped my protein and fat consumption. Good stuff of both of them. I mean, I _ate_ in those early days (until about 6 months). I started to feel like all I did was nurse, eat and sleep. Kinda like the baby. I ate fried chicken, spinach and french fries and kept _loosing_ weight. I ate 1.5 pounds of rare steak at a time. I ate 3 eggs and a pint of plain full fat yogurt for breakfast, then ate half a dozen peaches a hour later -- and still I kept shedding weight until the doc was worried. I know that doesn't happen to everyone, but it sure did to me. I felt like my little pixie was just _pulling_ the protein and calcium out of me. :LOL

And my favorite galactogue was Nettles. I made dried nettles into a tea and just drank it all day long. It is rich in iron and it helps in energy, in addition to helping milk production. It also tasted good enough to me to just keep bottles of it in the fridge. I drank it all the time. Iced, hot or room temperature. It is good for the kidneys and good for the blood. And I never tested positive for aenemia. I also took lots of magnesium because it helps with calcium absorbtion.

Anyhow,


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## wendygrace (Oct 16, 2003)

I'm thinking of you. I hope the fenugreek work's. I also recommend Mother's Milk tea (I have some if you want it just PM me your address) and make sure your water supply is more than adequate. Drink, drink, drink! The thing that helped me the most, though, was oatmeal. Oatmeal cookies, plain oatmeal for breakfast, oatmeal with fruit. Wherever I could add it to my diet. I'd highly recommend it. And it worked within 24 hours for me.

Good luck to you and you are an AWESOME mommy for working so hard to do what is best for your baby.

Ps. Ask the LC that you've been working with if she has any ped referrals. She just may know of a few who know what they're doing.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

...just popping in to say "yes, yes, yes!!!" to the 2 previous posters' suggestions, which cannot be stressed enough:

* mama gotta DRINK A LOT - your hydration is really important!! (many pumping moms I know said that there was an impressive difference in supply when they pumped after being well-hydrated vs not)

* mama gotta EAT! - man, one of the worst hungers in the world I have ever experienced was during those first 6 mos of breastfeeding - it would hit me so fast and so hard... try to keep little snacks around in addition to eating regularly, just to keep up your mental sanity and physical strength!









* many moms do swear by oatmeal, stout beer (in moderation of course), nettles, and various supply-increasing teas and tinctures... if any of these sound appealing to you, try 'em out!

And as for the SNS, hang in there. Your dd may be used to the faster flow of the bottle nipple and it could just be frustration at the difference in flow levels between the SNS and the bottle nipple? Just one possibility to consider.

Best of luck w/ selling the house - hope you get a great price and that the move is as easy as can be!


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## speedknitter (Aug 20, 2004)

Audrey,
My story is very similar to yours, and I have been following this thread from day one. CONGRATS for hanging in there!!

I would strongly recommend getting the real SNS, not just the starter one. For one, it has three different tubing sizes, and you can go with a better flow rate than on the starter system. Second, it is easier to use with the container than hangs around your neck instead of the clip...that way you can use it while you are nekkid to get better skin-to-skin contact with babe.

Keep us updated!!!







:


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babiesin2years*
1.So of course she gained weight when we went to the dr. He was very happy about it. We were discussing what I had been doing and such.

2.He told me that she was losing more calories by nursing than she was getting from the breastmilk.

3.Then we are discussing the fact that she is 3 months old and has started rolling across the room already and is scooting backwards.

4.he says something to the effect that it is only by the grace of God that she is doing as well cognitively as she is considering that she was malnourished when we were not giving her formula.

5.He basically said the formula is putting weight on her so why continue to nurse?

6.Also he was falling all over himself b/c he knows this is all b/c of her being tongue tied. He was talking about how hard it is to see in a baby and how he just sent a newborn to the ENT last week for it just to be safe.

7.The other thing with the ped today was he commented on how she is behind on her shots.


Hi, I just read this today.

Wanted to comment on the above quoted blurbs, in order.









1.What would this guy be doing if you hadn't been so honest with him? If you'd just said "nope, this is all breastmilk, things are going SO GREAT since I saw the LC and had the clipping done." What would he have done? If you decided to go back, what if you tried that?

2, 3, 4, and 5. I would LOVE to actually see the test to determine if this is true. It has always sounded like utter nonsense. And I did caloric tests in college, being an Exercise Science major. First you gotta hook the baby up to a system where you capture all the air going out, and know how much air is being breathed in. You'd have to capture all the heat coming off the baby. You'd have to know the EXACT caloric content of the milk going in. And they'd have to figure out how much heat and air is coming off of you vs the baby.

I can almost guarantee that no one has EVER done this study, and they are all talking out of their behinds when they spew such nonsense as the act of eating is taking more calories than is being eaten.

Also, are they doing calorimetric (totally making up that word LOL) studies on your breastmilk? Say, over the course of a month, finding out the caloric (and protein and fat and vitamin and and and) content of your milk? A sample from each feeding, of course, as milk changes and is amazing and magical. Only then could they POSSIBLY make any sort of judgement on your milk. Have they done that? Have they offered to do it?

As for only taking an ounce in a feed-and-weigh, milk changes. Sometimes it's dense, sometimes it's not. What if the ounce of milk at that particular moment had a HUGE amount of calories in it? What if the ounce a few hours later was lighter in calories or nutrients or fat or whatever, and so instead of just an ounce, she drank 5 ounces? Has anyone ever mentioned that milk changes? I was just reading the other day that when lab animals are given food that is low in calories, they will instinctually eat more. When the food is higher in calories, they will eat less. If lab rats can do this, isn't it very likely that a baby can, too?

She's eating more breastmilk than formula, right? Well, that means that most of her calories are coming from the breastmilk.

And what is with this emphasis on weight? Has she grown TALLER during this time? What was her length at birth, and how tall is she now? Have some of those calories gone to grow her longer, rather than to chunk her up? I know most of my son's calories went towards his height, rather than weight. Why is it that doctors focus so much on pudge, when they are looking at GROWTH charts? Which include height?

And what about all this mobility? He thinks that the mere act of eating somehow sucks up the calories? What about moving around the room? My extremely active and long guy didn't even roll over until well into 4 months. Your girl is moving everywhere! What about the caloric expenditure in THAT?

This ped isn't thinking at all.

Your baby has grown, changed, and started moving very early, with mostly breastmilk. All the formula seems to have done is fattened her up. Is this THAT important? Why does he think so?

I know you mentioned you were worried about dehydration so you supplemented, but it *is* hot outside. Are YOU getting enough water?

6.What if you mentioned you were thinking of suing him b/c he missed such an important diagnosis? Not that you'd do it, but just mentioning it? Since he's falling all over himself now to likely "over"diagnosis tongue-tie, he's obviously very reactive. He's also SCARED. And he's making decisions for his patients out of fear. That's NOT fun to be around.

7.This guy isn't an AP-friendly doctor. He's assuming you don't know what you're doing. He knows nothing about variations of normal in breastfeeding, and the things you can do to help rather than destroy the nursing relationship. He's urging vaxes, and since I assume you'd at least once said a version of "no" to him about them, he's not listening to you. Now, even our naturopath, who is our family doctor, legally has to *mention* vaxes to us at every visit. But when I say "no thank you", she marks it down and moves on. She doesn't sit there urging them. She's done her legal duty, I've done mine, nothing more to be said.

I say find someone, anyone, new. Even if you're not going to stick with that person, find a new ped. Then tell the old ped that you're leaving, and they can send the records to Dr. XYZ. That gets any fear of him calling the authorities, as he'll see "oh she's simply changing doctors" rather than anything else. And then you can decide from there what's going to happen. But since this guy is spending WAY too much time on something that isn't even, really, in his realm (doctors graduating NOW get one, maybe two, classes in general nutrition. they didn't get that probably 10 years ago. so anyone who is an older MD likely didn't get a single class in nutrition, and you can bet your bippy that NONE of them received a mandatory class in infant nutrition), and he definitely isn't seeing what IS going on with your child, which is that she's thriving, despite all these gene-caused (frenulum issues) and doctor-caused problems.

Pant pant pant. Hope all that came out right.


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Hello

I wanted to say thanks for the continued support. I do need it.

I am frustrated and tired. Not that all of you aren't.







We all have busy lives. This week was one of those weeks where I felt as if I had a black cloud over me and everyting that could go wrong did, and I was constantly running all week. I was out of the house every single night this week.

Anyway no more whining.

Nursing is going pretty well. She definately prefers me to the bottle which is good. She varies in amounts of formula. Today she had 6oz total, so that's not too bad. I try to only give it to her if she really seems to need it. ie. not satisfied at the breast, thrashing around after nursing, etc. I always nurse first. It just gets tiresome after a while. The nursing, bottle feeding, pumping, taking 40 pills a day in supplements, etc. Some of you know first hand what I mean. It's worth it, just exhausting at times and other times no big deal.

Anyway, the water and food intake for me are pretty good for the most part. I am not losing any weight, so I must be eating something.

I think her problem with the SNS is the tube being in her mouth at all. She doesn't even like to look at it much less put it in her mouth. She wont even try to suck when it's in there, so I think the SNS is out. I am trying to pump after she eats so when we supplement it is breastmilk but I just don't get a lot. It takes me about 3 days to get up 3-4oz.

I actually did think about the fact that if I don't at least change my records from this ped he may get crazy and report me. So I am going to get my act together and at least have the records sent to another one soon. I didn't go at all this week. He wanted me to do a weight check but I really just didn't have time and I feel like she is doing fine. She is growing in length and her head. I don't remember how much but at 2 months she had grown. And she was getting pretty minimal amounts of formula at that point so she is clearly getting more breastmilk than he thinks. I think she gets more breastmilk than formula. I know she did today.

She is happy and rolling all over and trying to crawl. She's not even 4 months yet.

Thanks for sticking with me through this.

Audrey


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

I just found this thread today and I just wanted to tell you that you are about the most determined and strong mother who cares so much about her baby that she is going to continue through as many barriers to breastfeeding that I have ever seen or heard of any one person having to overcome to continue to breastfeed(which once again is the best thing for your baby and you) that I hope one day I have even a tenth of your strength. Seriously! You totally rock.

You have gotten a lot of great advice here and I hope you contiue to connect with your local LLL and go to meetings and get even more support irl. the only thing I can comment on is the supply issues just to once again reiterate how important it is to keep nursing as often as you physically can. Because you got such horrible care from your dr. in the beginning you may have to continue to supplement(if the sns is not going to work, how about an eye dropper or something), but don't feel guilty, at least you can still continue your nursing relationship. How about a diaper diary? You may be able to find one online and this can help assure you your baby is getting enough and maybe you really don't need to supplement. babies gain differently and that's normal, perhaps you should look her up on a breastfed baby wieght chart(bf babies grow differently than ff babies so many times peds think they are not growing right when they are really measuring against an irrelevant tool)(does anyone know if one can find one online?)

Can you have another nurse in, like a couple of days where you nurse your baby constantly? Do you have a sling? When ds was 6mo and under I literally tried to nurse him every time I thought he might want to nurse(fingers in mouth, rooting, grunting, sending telegraphic messages to me that he wanted to nurse). If he didn't, he wouldn't and that is how I knew he didn't want to, but if I thought there was a chance put him to the breast.

Can you co-sleep or bring your baby in bed with you at night? I had a friend who had supply issues well into the 3rd and 4th month and tried everything, herbs, pumping, script from the dr., and not until she brought her baby to bed with her at night did it get resolved. If baby gets too busy during the day they can then make up for it at night.

You not only CAN do this, you ARE doing it! You are such a strong mama and kudos to you!

Oh, I just had one more thought, if you still feel like you need to supplement and you don't have enough pumped ebm, maybe you can get hooked up with someone who can donate ebm?

And once again, YOU ROCK!!, You are like the strongest mama I have ever met! Keep on Keepin on.


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## wendygrace (Oct 16, 2003)

This thread is getting long and I can't remember but have you tried/considered cranio-sacral therapy?


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

6 ounces doesn't sound like that much at all. Am I right?

I would strongly urge *going* to some LLL meetings. If you have multiple meetings in your area, go to them all!







It's not just about problems. I mean, if you have problems it's great, but it's also about support! The same sort of support you've gotten here, but in "real life". In person.

This sounds like a huge bummer, but the woman that read my mom's eulogy was actually a friend she'd met at LLL meetings when I was a baby. They'd stayed friends all those years (I was 30 at the time of the funeral). That just shows you how strong the bonds can be between the women that go there! Definitely go to the meetings!

Also, it was just mentioned again, I would also strongly urge you to call around to massage therapists and/or chiropractors to find someone who does a technique called "cranio sacral therapy" (like I said, it was just mentioned). It's not massage, it's not chiro, but those are the usual people who do it. It's a VERY gentle thing that can help release, oh, tensions? not just tensions but that's the only word that comes to mind, in the cranial area and the sacral area, and that releases stuff in between. I had it done to my son at 2 weeks, and it *totally* changed his nursing style; I also watched the bones of his head and face change to a more symmetrical shape over the day of the appointment. He had been off kilter during labor, and you could see it when he was out, but cranio sacral changed it for the better. People who do this technique are very nice (she says, only knowing a few) and most people will work with wanna-be-clients when their insurance doesn't cover it (usually doesn't) and money is beyond tight. You can call and ask, because cranio sacral is amazing stuff!

I think your daughter's mobility is amazing. Obviously her calories are being used for important things.









Oh!!!! One more, very important thing, I hope you haven't skipped reading.







The thrashing around at the breast, in our case, signified he was going for another let down. He'd pull off, pop back on, pull way out to there with nipple still in his mouth, go back in...thrash and cry and act like he wanted to get down then want to have more...and inside of 5 minutes, whammo, more milk. Is it *at all* possible this is going on? I know full well that most women don't automatically think of that when their babies are going wild at the breast. Lucky for me (hmm) I was on serious painkillers for weeks after Eamon's arrival, and all I did was sit and nurse. I couldn't do anything so I just let him do whatever, and that's how I discovered the multiple let-down thing, and that the thrashing and pulling caused it. Most women aren't just going to sit there like I did, so I tell everyone about it, just in case it's what is going on in their case. Maybe it will help!


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
The thrashing around at the breast, in our case, signified he was going for another let down. He'd pull off, pop back on, pull way out to there with nipple still in his mouth, go back in...thrash and cry and act like he wanted to get down then want to have more...and inside of 5 minutes, whammo, more milk. Is it *at all* possible this is going on?


This is certainly one possibility to consider - let us know, Audrey, if you try this and get a good result.

ANOTHER reason a babe might thrash around at the breast, and one that is RARELY if ever spoken of with respect to figuring out breastfeeding (but really can explain things if your kid keeps popping on an off during a feeding and you can't figure out why), is that your baby might have to pee or poop.

Feedings get the whole gastric & bowel system moving (peristalsis, woo hoo!) and young babies often have to go either mid-feeding or just after or within 15 minutes of a meal. Shoot, even toddlers often get antsy mid-meal or just afterwards because they've gotta go. Adults often need to go post-meal, too!

SO... thrashing/popping on & off your breast may just be a sign that your dd has to go to the bathroom. Sure, it could be that she's more hungry, but it could *also* be that she's just gotta relieve herself first before she wants to nurse again.

I can tell you that for the first 8 months of my dd's life, I just continued to offer the breast thinking that it was hunger, but at some point I figured out which "popping off the breast, thrashing around" meant pee/poop and which meant "more milk, please!" You can tell too (does her diaper get warm w/ pee? does she start to fart or contract abs trying to bear down? etc. versus purposeful sucking waiting for your milk to let down). Bottom line -- for young babies, pee/poop sensations can be uncomfortable and they may nurse more/take an extra bottle for comfort when really they just need to pee/poop. Because our western society diapers our babies (most babies around the world are not diapered, esp. in Africa & Asia), we have fallen out of synch w/ the whole "eat - pee/poop" connection, so it's easy to assume it's hunger when it's just another physical need/sensation.

Whoa, sorry so longwinded. I just remember feeling like a puzzle piece had been put into place when I figured out how to read which of my dd's signs meant hunger and which meant "gotta go." Wish I had known it when we were struggling during those first few months of nursing/nipple shields/pumping/exhaustion and I couldn't figure out why she was popping off and on.

Audrey, I've said it before but will say it again: YOU ROCK.







And like pp said, you ARE doing this!!!







I hope you are able to get some rest this weekend and that next week is easier on you. Exhaustion/fatigue/stress also can mess with your supply, so try to really remain focused on your staying hydrated, well-fed, rested, and whenever possible, relaxed and your nursing will follow in kind (I know, I know, much easier said than done!!!). Congrats on the fabulous efforts and wonderful job you are doing w/ nursing! It really is remarkable given the horrid advice and lack of support from that nasty pediatrician. Kudos to you for being able to see through his ignorance and persevere!

-M

P.S. - If you have time someday (not urgent), would you mind giving the name/contact info of your awesome LC? If you don't feel comfortable posting it publicly, please PM me. I'd also love to know the name of your ped, so that if I know anyone in your town, I can steer them clear of his quackery! But I'm much more interested in your LC's contact info so I can pass it on if any of my friends are in your area and would need it. Thanks!


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Another thing, I'm not sure if this has been brought up or not.

Trans fats cause a decrease in the fat content (and therefore amount of calories) in breastmilk - avoid these at all costs! Also avoid heat-processed vegetable oils (due to rancidity).
I firmly believe nursing mamas need a lot of fat, especially saturated, in their diets - when I significantly increased the fat (to about 50%) in my diet, my dd started gaining weight quickly.


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## Miss Information (May 17, 2005)

I don't know if increasing your diet to 50% fat is necessarily a good thing, particularly in light of what kellymom says about increasing the fat content of your milk.

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mi...e-milkfat.html

notably this part:

What affects the amount of fat and calories in a mother's milk?

* Mom's diet? The research tells us that mom's diet does not affect the average amount of fat or calories in her milk. However, mom can change the types of fat in her milk by altering the types of fats that she eats

and this part:

The degree of emptiness of the breast is what research has shown to drive breastmilk fat content, and thus calorie content. The fuller the breast, the lower the fat content of the milk; The emptier the breast, the higher the fat content of the milk.

(thus more frequent feeds = fattier and higher calorie milk)

Eating healthier fats and making sure you have sources of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids or even as little as 3 tbsp a day of virgin coconut oil (contains lauric acid; other sources of lauric acid - coconut oil, palm oil, butter and breastmilk) rather than the trans fats or other vegetable oils will change the fat content of your milk to better quality fats. coconut oil has gotten a bad rap, but it is an excellent source of saturated fat.

things like flaxseed oil or evening primrose oil supplements, cooking with virgin coconut oil are great fats to add to your diet.

foods also high in calcium will also increase your nutrition as well as support milk supply. almonds, sesame seeds, blackstrap molasses, 20 minutes of sunlight to increase your vit D levels to help you absorb calcium. also avoid calcium robbing things- carbonated beverages, caffeine, limit animal protein

improving the quality of your diet will improve the quality of your milk.

If you can get a hold of a book called Mother Food by Hilary Jacobsen, it has a wealth of info regarding nutrition to support the bf mother with discussions of various herbs and foods used as galactogogues throughout history and in modern day times. (although I knew about the benefits from coconut oil a long time ago- it's actually antibacterial, antifungal and has a whole bunch of other benefits).

Barley water is a cheap and effective galactogogue - cheaper and tastier than beer without the alcohol.

For about 69 cents i purcahased a quart sized container hulled barley from a health food store (from one of their bulk bins) and boiled 3/4 cup of the barley then simmered it for 2 hours in about 3 qts water, adding more water as needed so that when it was done i had about 1.5 qts. Strain the water and save it into a large container, dump the barley or use it for a soup or something. You can drink it like that or add some fengreek powder (just open up one of the capsules if you have them and add it to a cup). And drink this throughout the day. You could make this each day for about 2 weeks and it should help improve your supply without breaking your budget. It's a little time consuming, but boy is it cheap.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

I would say for the average mama who is in good health, it probably doesn't make much of a difference what she eats, you're right. Me, I'm pretty poor at absorbing nutrients, and quite nutrient deficient right now, so if I don't prepare my food in such a way as to maximize digestibility and nutrient absorption, I notice a HUGE effect in both my energy level and mood. After 9 months of nursing dd, I was in really rough shape, and may not have made it nursing much longer had I not discovered Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. Unfortunately, their information on breastfeeding is rather poor, but the information on nutrient absorption and food preparation, as well as the benefits of a higher fat diet and the fallacies of the lipid hypothesis and such have been incredibly valuable to me. Dd started doing much better as soon as I started to prepare my foods in an easily assimilatable way . . . basically, *if mama doesn't have a nutrient in her system, baby isn't going to get it either*. Nutrition is an entire concert of enzymes, vitamins and minerals all working together to help each other become absorbed. Additives in the "food" that sits in our supermarket shelves cause nutrient depletion, and IMO, so can a low-fat diet. In my case, I was severly fat-deprived, deprived of fat-soluble vitamins, and absolutely needed to increase my intake. I've learned to follow my cravings, and I've fewer health problems now (was heading to arthritis with curled toes and numb ankle and hands, all better most of the time, kidneys were hurting all the time, rarely hurt now, and I could go on like this . . . and I'm only 26, btw)


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

First Way to go Mama!!!! Many MANY women would have thrown in the towel!!

Also, if you are going to take Fenugreek, it works much better with Blessed Thistle. Also, taking Fenugreek - Do you smell like maple syrup? I didn't read all of the pages or posts, but if you are prone to depression it is not a very good idea to take Reglan. Really, nursing problems are plenty depressing all by themselves. Unless the FDA has rescinded (hey, it's 6:30 am here and I can't spell without plenty amounts of coffee!) their order, docs cannot prescribe Domperidone (they yanked it right after I got mine when I was nursing K, that was almost 2 years ago).

Again, you Rock Mama!!!


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## Miss Information (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde*
I would say for the average mama who is in good health, it probably doesn't make much of a difference what she eats, you're right. Me, I'm pretty poor at absorbing nutrients, and quite nutrient deficient right now, so if I don't prepare my food in such a way as to maximize digestibility and nutrient absorption, I notice a HUGE effect in both my energy level and mood. After 9 months of nursing dd, I was in really rough shape, and may not have made it nursing much longer had I not discovered Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. Unfortunately, their information on breastfeeding is rather poor, but the information on nutrient absorption and food preparation, as well as the benefits of a higher fat diet and the fallacies of the lipid hypothesis and such have been incredibly valuable to me. Dd started doing much better as soon as I started to prepare my foods in an easily assimilatable way . . . basically, *if mama doesn't have a nutrient in her system, baby isn't going to get it either*. Nutrition is an entire concert of enzymes, vitamins and minerals all working together to help each other become absorbed. Additives in the "food" that sits in our supermarket shelves cause nutrient depletion, and IMO, so can a low-fat diet. In my case, I was severly fat-deprived, deprived of fat-soluble vitamins, and absolutely needed to increase my intake. I've learned to follow my cravings, and I've fewer health problems now (was heading to arthritis with curled toes and numb ankle and hands, all better most of the time, kidneys were hurting all the time, rarely hurt now, and I could go on like this . . . and I'm only 26, btw)

Oh, I do agree with you wholeheartedly. If you can't absorb the nutrients from food sources, your baby won't get them from you. My sister has celiac and until she eliminated all sources of wheat and gluten, her damaged small intestine could not absorb nutrients. I do agree with that fats are necessary for the assistance of nutrient absorption. Coconut oil is very effective in doing this. I hope you weren't offended, I didn't mean to negate what you were saying. I do agree there is misinformation out there about fats, cholesterol and the like. I do agree there is an art to balancing nutrition for maximum absorption.

I guess I was a little concerned for the average person to increase fats up to 50%, especially if you include the "wrong fats".

It's a complicated business, trying to get it all down right.

Thanks for elaborating for me.


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

I am so happy for you! I applaud you for keeping it up and never giving up!!! I'm glad that they fixed the tounge. Too bad the ped didn't catch that early on.

DD also has trouble gaining weight. She is 11 months and still under 13 lbs. So they weigh the same. I believe she is 12 lbs 10 oz. Mine started off smaller though. ( 5lbs 12 oz) But just wanted to say keep up the good work!!!!


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## 3babiesin2years (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks

I wanted to let you know I started a new thread. This one is super long. new thread

Audrey


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