# Boys & dresses/pink/long hair etc



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Hi! My four-year-old ds has always liked dresses, high heels, the color pink, and has always wanted to grow his hair long. We used to steer him away from these things in public so as to protect him from social censure.

We have recently decided to deal with it more directly, letting him know what some people think, and letting him make his own choices. So he goes out in whatever he likes, and we get some stares, and lots of people just assume he's a girl (which he's fine with). Yesterday I was helping my daughter choose a dress at a farmer's market, and SURPRISE my son wanted one, too. So I have now bought a dress for my son. It's a lizard print and he looks great.







And his hair is growing long...

I had worried a lot about him being teased, and feeling like there's something wrong with him, and ending up losing this expressive part of himself. The early indications are that he will be okay, so I'm less worried. (I also worry about people thinking that I'm a weird parent, but they probably already do!)

So I'm just curious to hear from other folks with gender bending boys to see how you feel about it, what your stories are.


----------



## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I am not a parent yet, but I imagine this isn't easy to deal with, even with the most open-minded parents.

I think you are doing a great thing in letting your son be who he is/thinks he is/wants to be etc, because the fact is, whatever he is going to be, he is going to be---what you do or don't do is only going to affect the amount of therapy he is going to need lol (meaning if you react negatively, it isn't going to help anything) ---
In other words, he may be gay, he may be transgendered, he may just be experimenting, playing dress up and will "grow out of it" etc, but regardless, what you do or don't do is not going to do a thing to steer him towards anyone's percieved "normalcy"--it will only make things far worse if you react negatively-so I think the best thing for you to do is what you are doing now--letting him be. It is important to talk about feelings, thoughts, etc without pressure or judgement, and take things as they come. Let your son know about the "real world" as gently as possible (I probably wouldn't go too much into it until/unless he gets made fun of etc)...but also let him know you love him, accept him and will stand by him no matter what his choices may be. Maybe you can impliment something along the lines of, the same way you can't go to the grocery store in your underwear or whatever, certain places where it might be a problem or whatever for him to wear a dress you can calmy discuss and compromise (would you mind wearing pants to church sweetie, and you can wear your dress to the park later) kind of thing...but it depends on how much you care about things....

Like I said, I am sure it's not easy...no one would choose a life or situation that has the potential of making things harder for their children or might make their children the object of teasing, scrutiny, judgement, etc...but the thing that will damage your son the most (imo) is if YOU act negatively or judgemental or force him into a role he may not be comfortable with---the truth is, the only thing that will bring on a solution is time....

Good luck and take care...keep being a sensitive, loving, accepting mama and your son will be great!!


----------



## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*

So I'm just curious to hear from other folks with gender bending boys to see how you feel about it, what your stories are.

Well, my oldest son had a pony tail for a while, until he was about 11. He also has long nails. Most people thought the tail was cool (not his grandmother, but he was confident enough not to let it bother him.) He's gotten some questions about the nails, he usually just shrugs and says he likes them that way. He used to love the color pink, when he was younger, but then he went to school and learned that he's not "supposed" to like it.









My youngest son, at this moment, has his fingernails AND toenails painted. Each a different color. Grandma (AGAIN it's grandma!) disapproves and asked him if he was a girl.







But fortunately, he wasn't bothered by this--he just looked at her like she was crazy and said, "No, I just like it." This son also loves baby dolls.

My kids like what they like. So far, they think people are weird for asking them why they like certain things--why does anyone like anything? I do think our kids take cues from us though--the first time another child asked ds2 why he was wearing nail polish (in a tone that was not approving) he didn't answer, so I answered for him with a shrug and a matter-of-fact, "He just likes it." By not making a big deal of it, the kids didn't either.

We've always encouraged and supported our kids in whatever interests they've had. We believe that their clothing choices and style choices are their's to make. Actually, the only thing that's caused a problem is when dd wore a very short haircut and was called, "Son" by a store clerk. THAT upset her--funny thing was, she was wearing earings and a pink shirt with flowers at the time. Go figure.


----------



## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

if i were his mom i'd just be afraid that he'd be teased.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I think your adjusted attitude about it is fantastic! My DS had long hair for quite awhile until he decided he wanted it cut. His idea. He is way big on pretend and role play is the call of the day, month, year! If he's not wearing his PJ's around town, he's wearing a tail and yes, a dress is not an unsual thing for him to wear either (he also likes his toenails painted when I'm doing mine). We walked together through the food co-op one very busy evening while DS was wearing a BRIGHT ORANGE DRESS WITH COLORFUL SHAPES that used to be mine. Like when he wears his tail, he got many adoring glances and comments.









I think it's Rahima Baldwin in "You Are You're Child's First Teacher" who talks about ages 3-5 being the "age of fantasy." They are what they dress like and they're loving every minute of it. Must... be... in... character! I love the inhibition, the daring, the courage to be exactly who they feel like at any given moment and I wouldn't trade it, curb it or try to change it, for time will sadly have them wanting to "fit in" before too long.









Or then again, if we're lucky, maybe not.









The best to you NoraJadesMom!


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Well, DS has had long hair in the past. He decided to get it cut last spring (when he was 2.5) and is now in the process of growing it out again (though it is almost long enough to be a "normal" cut--- it was really buzzed before).

He doesn't generally want to wear dresses, simply because he is a really casual guy; pajamas, that's another matter! BUT, he does wear a pink leapard print leotard to gymnastics (w/matching ruffle shorts) and has gotten several comments. He also loves nail polish.

I really try to keep in mind that it is SOCIETIES issue and for all I know by the time DS is a man the norms will have changed once again. How many societies *today*, after all, have men still wearing dresses, who wear face paint, etc...? And within the last century it was very common for young boys to have long hair and wear "dresses."

DS & DD have both understood from a very young age that some people are just stuck with certain views of the world. You can choose to change to fit in with their views or you can do what feels right to you. They are the ones who deal w/the primary consequences and they are the ones to make the choices (so far, lol).








Sounds like you are doing a great job!


----------



## momma2mingbu (Jun 1, 2002)

NoraJadesMama - Just wanted to say "HI!" How are you? Email me woman!


----------



## mtnsunshinemama (Sep 21, 2004)

I admire the way you are handling this! It reminds me of a great film you might want to check out! Ma Vie En Rose -( My Life In Pink)
http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/ne...item_1075.html
Quote:
In the Belgian film Ma Vie en Rose Pierre (Jean-Philippe Ecoffey) and Hanna (Michele Laroque) move with their four children into a pleasant suburb. Their seven-year-old son Ludo (Geoges Du Fresne) makes his debut at a welcoming party dressed as a fairy princess. "I'm a boy now," he believes, "but one day I'll be a girl." Ludo turns his family's life upside down when he professes his love for Jerome (Julien Riviere), the son of his father's boss. Then he's expelled from school and sent to a therapist. The only one who stands by him is his colorful grandmother (Helene Vincent) who honors his unwavering sense of self.

Writer and director Alain Berliner has made a fresh and phantasmagorical film about what it takes to survive in a world where people still measure others by codes of conformity, prejudice, and small-mindedness. The incomparable Ludo stands his ground until those closest to him accept him fully in love. This bright and touching drama celebrates diversity as one of the enchantments of life.


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i think that you are wonderful for letting your son be himself.

i have always felt that its unfait that boys cant wear girl clothes.. though lots of girls wear very boyish stuff..

i actually dress my 2 year old in girly stuff.. i think he looks lovely in pink and purple and he likes it too..

he has fine features, so most people just think he's a girl.. boy clothes or not.

im not sure if this will affect him when he is older or not. if he tells me he wants to cut his hair or not wear dresses anymoe ill be okay with that.. but for now i think he should wear whatever he wants


----------



## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I don't have any advice, just wanted to say Ma Vie En Rose is one of my favorite movies of all time.









Ariel Gore said something about this in "The Hip Mama Survival Guide." Let me go see if I can find it...

Found it.

Quote:

I know one first grader who, although he has never appeared to have any shortage of testosterone pulsing through his veins, has his drag queen days. His mom is a very cool chick who doesn't say a word until he wants to go out, at which point she kindly warns him that even though he looks fabulous, "Some people might make fun of you. Some people are _like that._" So this kid knows what's up. I've seen him running down the sidewalk after an ice cream truck all decked out in a princess outfit and my daughter's choker necklace, but he wears khakis and t-shirts to school. School has a disproportionate number of people who are _like that,_ he explains. And he'll only set himself up for as much ridicule as he can deal with.
Altho I haven't BTDT, I really like this approach b/c...
1) you affirm ("honey, you look fabulous, that hot pink is so your color!")
2) you place the blame on *them* not him (some people are _like that_ - ignorant, prejudiced, narrow-minded, etc)
3) you allow him to make his own decisions (he sets himself up for as much ridicule as he can handle)

Ariel follows up with this wonderful wonderful quote:

Quote:

As the poet Audre Lorde put it, "The strongest lesson I can teach my son is the same lesson I can teach my daughter: how to be who he wishes to be for himself. And the best way I can do this is to be who I am and hope he will learn from this not how to be me, which is impossible, but how to be himself. *And this means how to move to that voice from within himself, rather than to those raucous, persuasive or threatening voices from the outside, pressuring him to be what the world wants him to be."*


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well I have a girl who gender bends, and I hope if I have a boy I will be comfortable (and encouraging!) of him expressing the full range of who he is.

My little girl's best buddy is a genderbending 3 yr old boy. He is lovely. He has long wild blonde curly hair, big eyes, and he and my dd throw balls around and carry their dollies in slings together.

Btw MamaFern I looked at your pics of you and your babe. Beautiful!


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Your son is very lucky to have you.

I don't know anything about this - my DD insisted that she was a boy for a while and she definitely has tomboy tendencies but she also likes to wear dresses and pretend to put on makeup.

I saw an Oprah show a while ago







: (I love her but I know she's not too popular at MDC!) and it was about this very topic. You might be able to do a search on her website for a tape of it.


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

thismama









i have the cutest pic of elwynn in a mini skirt and cowboy hat.. im goin gto put in in our picture album


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

well, i cant find it.. but when i do i will


----------



## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

OMG, the pajama comment reminded me that ds1 used to do that too. And, while not a cross-gender thing, he also used to wear capes constantly. I can't even remember how many capes I've sewn over the years. He preferred silky material but often went out dressed as Superman. When he was small, people thought it was cute, but by the time he was 7 or so people were staring. He didn't notice. In fact, once, in a store, a dad shopping with a little one annouced loudly "Hey! There's Superman!" and the younger boy was in awe. Ds had a great time playing the part.

Personally, I think fantasy is great thing and that it's a shame that it gets squashed because of peer pressure.

I loved the "some people are like that" comment!


----------



## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I think you should let him dress how he wants.







His body, his choice. I wore boy clothes until I was about 13. One time my mom had to chase me around the house to get me to wear a dress to a wedding! :LOL My son was often mistaken for a girl when he was younger, even though he had a classic boy's bowl cut and clothes with cars and trucks on them. People will see what they want to see so why cater to their likes? BTW my son at 9 now likes to wear his hair long.


----------



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

What great answers this thread has gotten!







You are all such wonderful Mamas!!!







It's not really fair that it's (socially) ok for girls to like boy things, but not vice-versa, isn't it? I mean, it's no big deal to anyone when my DD wants to wear "boy" clothes, nobody even bats an eye!


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i think gender equality means that everyone shold be allowed and respected no matter what they wear, their sexual orientation.. ect ect.

i have had people say " if you dress your son like that he will turn gay" he is 2 years old. he likes it! if he is gay, then he is gay.. i didnt turn him that way.. plus i'd love him no matter what. i would insist on grandchildren though!


----------



## jennifera (Feb 23, 2005)

I have to agree with everyone here, Let kids dress the way they want, I have 6 Year Old Boy/Girl twins, my son likes to play dressup at home in his sisters clothes, And i dont see anything wrong with it.

alot of times when we are out doing errands, Both my son and daughter are often mistaken for identical twin sisters, with my son wearing all boys clothes, My sons hair is the same length and color just like his sisters, Their voices are just about the same, If either one of them says anything to me and i am not looking at them, I actually have to turn around to see which one is talking to me, If he is wearing some of his sisters clothes and we are going out, He will change into his own clothes without being asked to, Although if my son is wearing some of his sisters clothes And we are in a hurry, he will go out dressed in his sisters clothes, He has a Unisex name, So if we call him by his name and he is wearing his sisters clothes, No one really blinks an eye.

MamaFern, Your son looks so cute, I can see why people mistake him for a girl.

i actually dress my 2 year old in girly stuff.. i think he looks lovely in pink and purple and he likes it too..

MamaFern, I am courious, When you dress you son in pink, do you also put either pink barrettes or pink bows in his hair, With his hair the way it is, I think he would look cute with pink bows in his hair. Also when you take your son out in public dressed in girls clothes, What kind of clothes you do put on him.


----------



## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

My son wore a dress all last summer. (He was 4 at the time). Dh and I were fine with it and so were all his friends and everyone on our street. I think friends and neighbors are more inclined to follow the parent's lead; so if you are totally confident and blase about it: "Yep, he's really into that dress. It was mine when I was a kid, how 'bout that?" they will be less inclined to question it than if you express insecurity. (Not that I would care what people thought, but it's nice not to be hassled.) Strangers assumed he was a girl, biking along in his dress and pink helmet. He looked great.

The way I see it, a little boy has a limited time (up to kindergarten?) to explore wearing whatever he wants, without negative judgement from peers. Ds was totally oblivious to the fact that he wasn't "supposed" to wear a dress, and I Iet him make the most of it.


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

nak

thanks everyone
great stories!

mamas of boys who've had long hair:
i'd love to hear descriptions of the hair style/cut. my son wants long hair with bangs, like his sister used to have. i'm trying to steer him toward growing it all out so his very haircut doesn't scream "GIRL" to everyone.


----------



## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
mamas of boys who've had long hair:
i'd love to hear descriptions of the hair style/cut. my son wants long hair with bangs, like his sister used to have. i'm trying to steer him toward growing it all out so his very haircut doesn't scream "GIRL" to everyone.

You can see my son's hair here:

http://www.ghosts.org/annika/

It's longer than that in the back now but he does keep his bangs trimmed to just above his eyes because he doesn't like his hair in his face. It doesn't look girly at all, to me anyway. I think as long as it's "shaggy" it won't look that girlish.


----------



## guest^ (Oct 29, 2002)

There are far more important battles to pick with our dc then appearances!!









mp

(dh is a former punk-rocker...in highschool he would dress in pink,dye his hair orange,etc..he graduated #3 at the top of a class of 522 poeple. 4.0 in College. Professional cyclist for 13 years, now Art Director of an AD firm. He is good at everything he does,and is true to himself. He has worn pants only 5-10 times in the 18 yrs we've been together. Birks everyday. Never has worn a tie-except to our wedding-AND IT WAS A BRIGHT PINK BOWTIE!!!! :LOL )


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
mamas of boys who've had long hair:
i'd love to hear descriptions of the hair style/cut. my son wants long hair with bangs, like his sister used to have. i'm trying to steer him toward growing it all out so his very haircut doesn't scream "GIRL" to everyone.

I hear ya. DS's hair was an odessy from the start--started out long and just got longer. I was in the habit when he was a babe of keeping the bangs and the rest trimmed up (just easier) and then at about 18 months--2 years, it just started growing out. At that age, he wasn't about to let me cut more than I had to, but he wasn't thrilled with hair in his eyes so I kept the bangs trimmed and trimmed around the rest only once and awhile. It was definitely dutch boyish and CUTE, but then he was 2 so I think we got away with it. He was called a girl often however, and while now at the role play stage, I think he'd LOVE that, he was confused and maybe a little upset by it then. He asked me to cut his hair somewhere before 3 and now it grows out to varying degrees (we only manage to cut it a couple of times a year). He was actually planning on growing it long the last time (bangs and all) until I came home having had my long hair cut short. He then decided it was time for him to get a cut as well.







As far as bangs vs. no bangs, I'm with you... and I know several boys who LOOK like boys who have their hair this way and they look darned adorable! If DS changes his mind back, I'd say more power to him. At least he's got beautiful hair. My just got long and well, stringy.







:

Regards,
Em


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

mamas of boys who've had long hair:
i'd love to hear descriptions of the hair style/cut. my son wants long hair with bangs, like his sister used to have. i'm trying to steer him toward growing it all out so his very haircut doesn't scream "GIRL" to everyone.
DS had one length hair. He is currently growing it out again but since it is only about 1" long it will be a really long time!

That said, in some ways the bangs cut makes it more "boyish" because in that growing out stage you have to keep it off their face and how do you do that?.... well, clips and scrunchies of course, lol, which definately screams "girl"


----------



## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

My oldest DS used to dress up in dresses, had an Easy Bake oven, a Little Mermaid Barbie, asked for a dustbuster for Christmas one year, has grown his hair out (and then shaved it...and is growing it out again now)...oh! And he just LOVED his sister's Pocahontas jammies and wore them until they were holey.

He's almost 10, and though he doesn't dress in dresses anymore (he's what would be labeled a "jock")...he still loves to cook and run his dustbuster!


----------



## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:

He's almost 10, and though he doesn't dress in dresses anymore (he's what would be labeled a "jock")...he still loves to cook and run his dustbuster!
That is so funny, and wonderful! :LOL

I also hate how girls are allowed, and often encouraged to be masculine. But somehow allowing our boys to be feminine "turns them gay". So sad. I think that allowing them to express themselves in that way will make them confident and successful.


----------



## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

I am going to answer this from a teacher's point of view and experience. It depends on where you live, who your son hangs out with, how good his self esteem his, who his friends are, etc. I used to teach in a school with mostly African American kids. There was one little white boy who had long curly hair, like to dress in girl's clothes and wear things like beaded necklaces and feather boas. African American boys tend to place a high value on masculinity and some of them teased this boy a lot. Some of the other white boys did, too. These were all fourth and fifth graders. His mom was in the office regularly to defend him and the teasers were constantly being reprimanded and had to do some lessons in respect. It did not really help. The mom eventually moved him to an alternative school in our city that is more arts oriented. I hear he is much happier and is around kids who also like to dress against the grain.

It would have been nice if the other boys had just let this little guy be himself but peer pressure is a nasty thing. It was better for the boy to be in an environment that promoted and supported acting artistically than in the more sports oriented environment in which I taught. On the other hand, I recently ran across a little person at the playground wearing pink pants, a yellow sweatshirt and having really great, long, blond curly hair with bangs. I told my dd to let the other girl go first and was told by the little guy that she was a he. We had a nice little talk about how my dd has short hair and was wearing navy at the time and gets mistaken for a boy sometimes. The little guy was about five and seemed quite used to this mistake and was really great about it. So, it really depends on the situation and the kid. However, as boys get older, especially as they approach middle school, peer pressure starts to set in and they get really nervous about their own masculinity. They show it, at times, by defending what they think is right and teasing anyone different. It is all a way of boosting their own self esteem. Mostly, they are not intending to be mean but they can be.

So, my advice is to just take it one day at a time and keep communicating with your little guy and just figure it out as you go. But, there will be teasing, especially as he gets older, so prep him for it and talk to his teachers and other parents and try to keep him in an environment that is supportive.


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

hmm, interesting to hear the different perspectives on bangs.

lckrause: I agree that your boy looks like a boy with bangs. Do you sort of taper the cut as you move from the forehead to the ears, sort of like a curve? What my dd had was the straight bangs cut and then long hair going down on the sides; that seems avoidable.

As for how he keeps the hair out of his eyes, for now he sort of swoops it out of the way. He loves barrettes and hairbands but they don't stay in for long.

kathipaul: thank you for your stories. For now he's homeschooling and everyone's supportive. If he went to public school I'd live in fear; not sure what I'd do. Even so, there will still be times when he gets flack, I have no doubt. For now he seems pretty strong about it; the risks seem to be in balance with his ability to cope with them.

It's funny, he's "all boy" in so many ways. He is rough and tumble, loves trains, etc. But he has a fashion flair, what can he say? :LOL My dad calls him a linebacker in a dress.

btw there's a great mothering article on this topic:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...blue_tutu.html
The author started a group called support our sons:
http://www.supportingoursons.org/misc/jobs.cfm

Not sure what road we're on but I'm along for the ride.







Parenting is such an adventure.


----------



## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

My sons- 2 1/2 and 8- tend to keeo their hair long. We just keep it one length- their rare haircuts ( once or twice a year) are with the neighbor's Flowbee. Since they tend to wear lots of Ren dress up, it works and still looks masculine enough for my dh. While it doesn't matter to me, dh is really strict on them not wearing girly stuff- they know there clothes they can only wear when dad's not home. The 2 yo actually loves his sister's dance wear, and plans to take ballet when he is 3 AND potty trained. (But, he will be in the "boy uniform" so dh is not complaining).


----------



## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
lckrause: I agree that your boy looks like a boy with bangs. Do you sort of taper the cut as you move from the forehead to the ears, sort of like a curve?

Yup, that's exactly what I did. He hasn't let me cut his hair in almost a year though... decided the hairdresser was better at it. Imagine that! :LOL


----------



## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

I'm just curious to think if any of you mama's dh's (if you're partnered with a man) would react/think differently than you. My dh is definitely more homophobic than me and can't help reacting (albeit quietly) when witnessing something homosexual. He would definitely label a boy dressing in "girl" clothes as homosexual. In theory he's not a homophobe (for example, he's pro gay marraige), but when it's "in his face" it's a different thing. Not to hijack the thread, but how much of this "accepting and supporting our sons" has to do with dealing with and confronting homophobia in their dads?


----------



## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

Kate, in our situation it's a little backwards from that. DH IS homophobic







but it never bothered him when DS played dressup or carried his sister's purse or anything.


----------



## terrarose (Dec 2, 2004)

Just checking in as another mama whose boy LOVES dresses. My 3 and a half year has wild blond curls, big blue eyes and loves wearing dresses, nylons, hair elastics and nail polish. He's gotten comments(mainly because he is so pretty, like, "See that beautiful little girl?) but he just laughs and says, "I'm a BOY!" and they don't know what to say! The only ones who really annoy me i my family(my folks and brother) but that's another story. I love that you bought him his own dress! So far dd's old ones have sufficed here but if he asked I buy him one too. This thread has me thinking, I wonder how many little "girls" in the grocery store actually aren't!


----------



## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama*
I'm just curious to think if any of you mama's dh's (if you're partnered with a man) would react/think differently than you.

Dh has no problem with it. Neither of us sees this as an indication of homosexuality, although we're certainly aware of the fact that our kids could be gay, straight or bi. It wouldn't matter.

My parents have said some stuff to the boys about certain things being "for girls" or that they look like girls, but I think we've done okay at counteracting that.


----------



## shanleysmama (Mar 9, 2002)

My DS turned 4 last week and has long hair. It's cut in a mullet that has grown out (he hates to get his hair cut but I needed it out of his eyes). Here's a pic from last week:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL18/6...0/86696064.jpg

and here he is before Christmas:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL18/6...0/84208389.jpg

DS gets called a girl all the time, no matter what he's wearing. He replies "no I'm a boy with lots of hair!" It's past his shoulder blades in back and was longer but once he experimented with scissors and cut about 4" off.









He doesn't care about the colors of his shoes or clothes and will confiscate DD's roller skates and galoshes with Barbie on them (hey, I got them cheap at a thrift, LOL). He has worn DD's princess play-dresses and fairy wings, but he loves Buzz Lightyear too. He wanted a doll for Christmas and we got him one but now he won't play with it. He insists on getting his toenails polished when DD and I do ours. He loves to wear playsilks, and now I have one with flowers on it so he puts it on and calls himself "Flower Boy". DH freaks out that DS will "turn gay" if I don't cut his hair soon and keep him out of the flower cape. I told DH to get a grip on himself and get over it, LOL. He says I'll have to cut DS's hair before he goes to school, I say "only if he goes to private school and they insist on it. Otherwise no way." DH hates it everytime someone calls DS a girl, I say it's not my fault they judge him solely on his hair length. Same thing happened to DD when she was a bald baby for 2 years - everyone called her a boy, even when she was dressed all in pink!


----------



## youngermom (Feb 25, 2005)

Hi,
My ds is only 6 mo. so I havn't had to deal with any of these issues, but my 7 yr old nephew definetly exibits many of the traits we are discussing. He is not into dresses, but loves to wear bright colors & cute tops, shorts, & pants. His hair is longer than most girls. He says he wants to grow it to his waist, & I think it will get there within a year. My sister has taken a very supportive approach. She lets him dress very unisex, but lets him know when he has crossed the line. Actually it really doesn't matter what he wears because he is so cute, & with his long hair (with rounded bangs) he is ALWAYS mistaken for a girl. It doesn't bother him, he just smiles. My only real concern is his hair. He seems to be obsessed with it. It is a beautiful blonde with waves & some curl at his ends. He spends hours a day just brushing & playing with it. I worry about him because he doesn't have any other interests. He says he wants to become a stylist. Oh well, it could be worse. He is a great kid; maybe he'll grow out of it. Thanks for listening.

Deb


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
It's funny, he's "all boy" in so many ways. He is rough and tumble, loves trains, etc. But he has a fashion flair, what can he say? :LOL My dad calls him a linebacker in a dress.

This is our little guy as well. Loves his trucks, trains, but is not at all uncomfortable in a dress and wide brim hat. He adores dinosaur encyclodedias, but also loves Madeline story books. Well rounded at age 4. One can only hope it becomes a way of life for him. For now, by allowing him to be who he is in the moment he's in, I'm reasonably certain he's at least 50% more better off emotionally than I was growing up.









The best,
Em


----------



## jennifera (Feb 23, 2005)

mistaken for identical twin sisters almost all the time, It does not matter if my son is dressed in boys clothes, As i said in my original post, My sons hair is the same length and color, And their voices are very simular, If i am doing something and not looking at them and one of them says something to me, I actually have to turn around to see which one was talking to me.

It was chilly out this past Sunday, The kids were bored because they were stuck in the house, So they decided to play dressup, (Some of the clothes that i have for both my son and daughter are doubles, Because when we go out and they get dirty, I can change their clothes and no one else knows that i changed their clothes) They both came out of my daughters room dressed identically, they were in a pink sweater and pink pants, They both had on a pair of white tights and black mary janes, My daughter put my sons hair in pigtails held in place with pink ribbons with 2 barrettes with pink bows in his hair, He looked so cute, My daughters hair was done the same way, When i saw them, I have to admit that they did look like identical twin sisters.

I forgot that we had to go to my neices 6 year old sons birthday party at a local duckpin (small balls) bowling alley, When i saw the time, I told my son to go get changed into his own clothes,(we really did not know any of the other kids that were going to be there) What he said next surprised me, He said that since he looked just like his sister, He wanted to switch places with his sister, he would go as her and she would go as her brother, My daughter did not mind that, So my daughter got changed into her brothers clothes and before we left, I reminded them that since they were going as each other, They would have to answer to each others names, They said ok.

When we got there, I took their coats (Like alot of girls these days, My daughter has a pink winter jacket, Which means my son was wearing his sisters winter jacket) from them and hung them up and they both started playing with the other kids including bowling, We were there for a little over 2 hours and to my knowledge no one including my neice and sister knew that my son and daughter were wearing each others clothes.

When it was time for the kids to go to bed, I started putting one of my daughters nitegowns on who i thought was my daughter, But come to find out it was my son, I even forgot that it was my son wearing his sisters clothes since he looks exactly like his sister.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

:

How funny.

Sometimes DS dresses up as "Little DD" (wears a 3/4 length shirt of hers, pants she has outgrown and her socks and panties). :LOL We went skating and I mentioned that and my friend said, "Oh I thought he just liked Strawberry Shortcake." We've really broken them in on non gender based appearance.


----------



## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

As many of you know, my boys are older but they have always loved their long hair (shoulder length and growing LOOOONGER!). They also have always enjoyed wearing so-called "girly" things: make-up, fingernail polish, toenail polish, lipstick, earrings etc. They have shown NO signs of outgrowing this, I am happy to say, and my bf and I encourage it. They are both ALL BOY in their behavior....they just love girl things. We let them shop in the girl sections of stores and they love to get pink blouses, bell bottom jeans with flowers, etc. They wear boy things as well, but they have NO PROBLEM with wearing girls' things alot. I had a new baby in February (also a boy) and we have decided that he is going to grow up from the start not having to worry about gender issues, so we bought him both boy and girl baby clothes and plan to keep doing so as he grows up. He will be in dresses some of the time, he will have long hair, panties, earrings, frilly shirts, and PINK, PINK, PINK !!! We won't limit him in what he wants at all. Our goal is that he grow up being completely comfortable in girls' clothing as well as boys' stuff.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

CONGRATULATIONS SHANN!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

MamaFern, I am courious, When you dress your son in pink, do you also put either pink barrettes or pink bows in his hair, With his hair the way it is, I think he would look cute with pink bows in his hair. Also when you take your son out in public dressed in girls clothes, What kind of clothes you do put on him.[/QUOTE]

:LOL

he doesnt uaually like anything in his hair except a ponytail or pigtails sometimes..

i put him in whatever he feels like wearing. a pink t shirt and yellow pants, or a dress with flowers, or shorts and a t-shirt and whatever. some days he picks boyish stuff, other days not.

if you look on the link you can see what stuff he wears. there are lots of everyday dress pics in there.. and one dress up one


----------



## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Mamafern - little Elwynn is beautiful! Wow!

Also, how did you make those nifty wooly striped pants? Those are wicked!


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I am so impressed with how open you mamas all are! I have 3 boys. My oldest used to like to wear anything silky. He loved to wear my silky night gowns around. He has since grown out of this, and now says things about pink being a girls color or dolls being girls stuff







. (thankfully he still likes to go clothes shopping wiht me and pick out my clothes, since he has much better fashion sense than I do!) I hate this. Neither my husband or I feel or act this way. He started it when he went to school. Now his 4 year old brother says similar things! Growing up, my mom was a real feminist and I learned about all the ways girls are pressaured into being things they are not, but now that I have 3 boys I realize how difficult and pressured boys are as well! For goodness sake, it is costumary to cut off part of boys sexual organs! (none of my boys are circumcized!)


----------



## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Ds has been raised with as little gender role stereotyping as possible. His first exposure to things being "for girls" and "for boys" was from the neighbor kids last summer







he's still really confused over it, I think.

I'm curious what "all boy" means and why it's such an important qualifier when little boys dress in traditionally feminine ways.


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Well, as some of you know, my son is a total flamer nd wants to wear pink dresses and necklaces and is at the same time very aggressive and "masculine" to many people. We are totally cool with it. Ilet him pick out his own new clothes at x-mas (2.5 yo) and he went right for the 'girls' clothing and got rainbow stripped pants and a pair of hot pink cords with rhinestone buttons.









I will not be an agent of gender oppression in my child's life even if I know others will do it. Protecting them from it seems misguided. I would not protect them from other things by becoming the oppressor.

PS. On the hair thing some of you might remember my quest for 'boy barettes'. I am into a more genderqueer look for my ds - I like to get him to pair the girly hings he is into with less traditionally girly things and heighten he challenge to everyone else's gender issues. So, I couldn't find any but I made some and they are SO cool! They are little clips with frogs and cars and basketballs and dinos and a wrench, etc on them.


----------



## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I usually let my dc wear whatever they want and my son sometimes wears "fem" clothes and generally has his toe nails painted. I don't think he tells the kids at school about his nail polish because he has caught a lot of flack from adults on that even though I have made it clear that he is my son and can do that if he wants. I don't mind when he wears "fem" clothes in public and I don't mind when he goes to the supermarket in full superhero regalia (makeup and everything) but it really bugs me when he wears his shirts tucked in. He has it drilled into his head that shirts should be tucked in (has to wear button collar shirts and khakis to school-tucked in) and gets upset when I suggest he be more casual. I am trying to get over this now, maybe I need to join a "let them be who they are" support group with the homophobe parents.


----------



## ~OceanPotion~ (Apr 30, 2004)

Kids are wonderful at expressing themselves through clothing. Its refreshing to see other moms who respect and support their childrens fashion choices.


----------



## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Girlndocs, what I meant by "all boy" was that they are into the "more traditional" (a term I hate) boy roles of rough housing, etc. I didn't mean it in any negative or gender defining way.


----------



## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm late to this thread but wanted to just chime in that my son went through this too - dresses, I mean. He has also had long hair a LOT over the years, up until he was about 8 (??) It's been short since then but often not his natural color. Right now it's buzzed except for bangs. Anyway... the dresses were hard in public. Between that and long hair, he definitely looked like a girl to people. I remember one little girl at a playground who wouldn't believe us or him that he was actually a boy - like she'd know better! That's how firmly planted the gender cues are...

also, there is an article about this from the Wears The Baby "Feminist Mama" column - here: http://www.wearsthebaby.com/articles...tingissues.htm

well shoot, editing to say - I can't find the article! I'll email and see where it went.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Between that and long hair, he definitely looked like a girl to people. I remember one little girl at a playground who wouldn't believe us or him that he was actually a boy - like she'd know better! That's how firmly planted the gender cues are...











We were on a field trip w/DD's preschool class and a little boy said, "Look, that little girl has a penis," because of DS's long hair. :LOL He just COULD NOT get it (even though he, himself had long hair as a toddler according to his mother).


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimmin_mama*
Mamafern - little Elwynn is beautiful! Wow!

Also, how did you make those nifty wooly striped pants? Those are wicked!

yep! they are made of a sweater







they dont fit anymore though! im saving them for the next baby now









i have also had people who dont believe me that elwynn is a boy, but really, who cares.. its not my problem what other people want to believe or think...


----------



## kira (Apr 28, 2004)

My boy loved pink, and flouncy dresses, and colorful stockings with the crotch cut out. His hair had never been cut and was down to his behind. He even wanted to wear his pink, flowery dress to the playground in Central Park sometimes- and, though I was privately worried about teasing, it was fine. Once, when he was running through the fountains naked, a teenage girl came up and asked if he was a girl! (long hair). He also made a tie and liked to wear that sometimes. At 3, he told me he loved pink because, when he was inside me, everything was pink.

Then, at six, he wanted short hair. We cut it. Now he wears button up shirts (insists on ironing) and ties and a tuxedo jacket. He accepted a beautiful, formal dress someone offered him eagerly, but does not put it on (though it may be because its not comftarble without a slip).


----------



## Bufomander (Feb 6, 2005)

:


----------



## kewb (May 13, 2005)

When my ds was 2 he was in love with a purple sequined dress at his school. He wore it for months. He loves to play with his sisters dress up clothes. I used to put nail polish on him if he asked and hair clips in his hair when he wanted. He took *gasp* ballet from ages 3-5 and he would love to start taking it again (I am trying to find a class that fits with our schedule). He loves to make neckalce and wear them.

He is 7 now and quite mortified when I tell the purple dress story. He still loves making jewelry and playing with his sisters' dress up on occasion.

I don't care what he wears so long as he is happy. I will talk about what other people may do or say if he dresses a certain way out of the house and he can make his own decisions.


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

It's fun to see this thread revived.

My update is that my son has had long hair for a while (he got it cut this summer on a whim and is now growing it long once again), and occasionally goes out in one of his dresses, and when picking out a new sweatshirt for him this summer I took a deep breath and bought the one I knew he would fall in love with (hot pink). And his sister gave him her red sparkly shoes, and he likes to show them off (they match his red spiderman t-shirt! :LOL )

So we're definitely going with his flow. But the interesting thing is that it's been a remarkably uneventful few months. Hardly anyone has said anything. Some people definitely assume he's a girl, but they're polite if I correct them, and he doesn't mind, he is not insulted by being associated with femaleness (never having been exposed to sexism).

It helps a lot that we're homeschooling, so he's not exposed to 100 kids a day. But even the kids who think boys should never wear dresses have figured out that he does (and is unapologetic about it!) and so they hardly seem to notice any more. Ha! I'm so pleased to see it become a non-event, at least so far.

One girl was grinning about how he likes clothes from the girl section, and I pointed out that the girl section has more pretty colors, that he likes, and she said, yeah, she has to go to the boy's section if she wants a dragon on her shirt, because those are never available in the girls' section. EXACTLY.









Has anyone's boy suffered negative consequences for wearing girl-designated stuff?


----------



## BoobyJuice (Jun 25, 2003)

You have just described my oldest. His favorite color for years was pink. I was so sad when he changed it to red. (He was only 3 at the time but very conscious of others and had been getting a lot of comments.) He's had pink shoes, a leotard and a tutu. Nothing like seeing a guy pushing a dump truck in a princess dress :LOL! My husband will paint my son's nails and tie on the playsilks to make him a princess. All my inlaws are horrified - and they don't know half of what he does. He slings his stuffed animals. We've bought a play kitchen, slings, strollers, trucks, and balls. I hate when toys are classified as "boys" or "girls" - toys are toys. Kids play with them. When he isn't pretending to be a princess, he's pretending to be a pirate.

I think it's sad that girls can now play soccer, climb trees, wear blue, dress in pants (well I think all of that is great actually) but that boys - and men - aren't given the same flexibility or ability to explore. Girls can wear blue but boys are made fun of for pink (or pastels in general). Girls can play soccer or hockey, but it's still seen as strange by many for boys to dance ballet.

We have always worried because our son is so sensitive. We wanted him to be able to do what he wanted, play and explore but we didn't want to see him crushed. When he was 4 we started telling him that he could do X but to be prepared because that wasn't _usually_ done and people might say something. I like the "some people are that way" - we haven't emphasized that it's their problem, not his, strongly enough.


----------



## BoobyJuice (Jun 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnthroMama*
Well, as some of you know, my son is a total flamer nd wants to wear pink dresses and necklaces and is at the same time very aggressive and "masculine" to many people. We are totally cool with it. Ilet him pick out his own new clothes at x-mas (2.5 yo) and he went right for the 'girls' clothing and got rainbow stripped pants and a pair of hot pink cords with rhinestone buttons.









I will not be an agent of gender oppression in my child's life even if I know others will do it. Protecting them from it seems misguided. I would not protect them from other things by becoming the oppressor.

PS. On the hair thing some of you might remember my quest for 'boy barettes'. I am into a more genderqueer look for my ds - I like to get him to pair the girly hings he is into with less traditionally girly things and heighten he challenge to everyone else's gender issues. So, I couldn't find any but I made some and they are SO cool! They are little clips with frogs and cars and basketballs and dinos and a wrench, etc on them.









(My son has pink bellbottoms with embroidered flowers he picked out himself! ) Got photos of the barettes? They sound fabulous.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Hey all,

I too was happy to see the thread revived! Still living a pretty balanced life over here. DS continues tol adore his trains and dinosaurs, but he also spends a great deal of time dressed as Pippi Longstocking--braids, stockings, dress and all. He's determined to grow out the hair and its getting pretty long. He's back to being called a girl about 50% of the time by strangers, and usually appreciates it because that who he is pretending to be.

Here's a thing I wonder about. DS likes to pretend to be people he knows. In particular girls he's quite taken with ("Mom, I have a crush on Robin"). He falls for them and before I know it, he BECOMES them. This week its a friend's daughter who is sweet, sweet sweet (she's 7 going on 8--he's got a thing for 7 year olds)! I can always tell when he has "a crush." He loses the dinosaur persona, becomes quiet, sullen even and all cuddly with me, and shy. At any rate, he followed this deary all around the beach and when we got home sure enough, he asked me to find him a red striped shirt and some "girl undies" which is what she was wearing at the shore. So he has "a crush" and then a need to also BE them. He's like this with everything though, its how he learns about something... he BECOMES whatever *it* is. Today, he's been a bunny, a kangaroo, an opossom... and those are just the ones I remember. Everyday, its one thing after another and most nights, he even sleeps "in constume." Its adorable, but exhausting!









Anyone out there have a round the clock role player, cassanova combo?









The best,
Em


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

So went shopping for pants for DD today (can that be any harder!?!?!) and ended up with two skirts for DS. I can kid myself and call them "kilts" but they are skirts (although they do have pleats and DS specifically did not want a "skirt" but a "kilt"). Very cute and the first real "girl" clothes I have bought DS so I guess I got over that barrier.


----------



## JamieK (Sep 18, 2005)




----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Jamie- What you are doing is amazing and I am so proud of you for letting your child be themselves without fear and judgement. You rock! Through my work I have met a lot of people who have children that are gender-different in the way that you are discribing and I would be happy to help put you in contact with people and to talk more privately about things. Welcome to MDC - so happy you are here!


----------



## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Jaimie -










































!!!!


----------



## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

I love this thread!







I know so many adults who would have loved to have mamas like you women when they were little kids pushing gender boundaries. You are doing your children such a service by letting them play freely with gender...

JamieK, you do, indeed, rock. I found this page of links from the Safe Schools Coalition that might be helpful.


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

And for any of you, the link tara gave, I know the heads of almost all of those organizations and would be happy to hel;p with resources and such if you need anything.

M


----------



## lisamarie67 (Sep 30, 2005)

I wish I had been allowed to wear dresses and play with dolls, I had to hide.I loved high heels and panties and anything girly. I played dress up with a girlfriend and forgot to take off the dress and I was spanked through only panties.I am an adult now and I have dolls and dresses high heels and best of all I have my boyfriend John. He is so sweet and loving and caring, I was blessed to become his girlfriend. I guess I am saying let him be himself even if that is being HERSELF she will be happier. Also let her decide if she is called a boy or a girl (I bet she wants to be refered to in the feminine).


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Jamie I think you rock.

My boy has been wearing his dresses a fair bit. The comments are usually perplexed and amused in a "uh..okay" kind of way. Yesterday a mom said, "Well, I guess he'll be able to say in touch with his feminine side" in a dubious kind of way.

What is it with our generation of parents? Why is it so hard to see this as simply a non-issue? WHo cares why a given boy might want to wear a dress? Why do we feel the need to have our kids in tiny little boxes? I have no idea what it means to my son, his gender development, or his various personality sides. I just know that it appeals to him, and I'm excited about getting to know him as his individuality unfolds.

Sigh. Fortunately the parents in our circle of friends get it and celebrate him as he is, with no puzzled looks. They compliment him when he's dressed up fancy, and it pleases him.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
I just know that it appeals to him, and I'm excited about getting to know him as his individuality unfolds.

Indeed, I can't imagine what it would take to be an opposing side to what is clearly something that DS is passionate about. What it would take and at what cost to his emotional health it would it present to not simply accept (and CELEBRATE!) who he is in the moment. I too am blessed to live in a community where this isn't a huge deal and there are even a couple of boys around town known also for sporting a dress and/or long hair.









The other day I responded to a thread about the wish for having both genders of child in a family. I responded that I'm happy with what I've got and do not desire a girl. However, I do wonder if that's because on many days I feel I truly do have both.









We've been enjoying the story of The Wizard of Oz in the last couple of days. Our local pumpkin patch used this as their theme this year and DS was intrigued so we told him the story and today we watched the movie as a family. I adore the film, the books, etc., and its been a joy to share them with DS. He (as I could have predicted) fell in love with Dorothy before he even saw the movie. It was the same with Pippi, Madeline and Laura Ingalls. Needless to say, he's been "Dorothy" for two days, dress, pig tails, basket... _"and toto too."_ Today, he was getting into the bathtub as "Dorothy" and he told me he was pretending that he didn't have a penis and that I was to pretend this as well. At any rate, this "phase" has been going on for the better part of two years and although he's embraced a male character here and there (Mike Mulligan comes to mind), he clearly has a preference for certain types of female characters and who am I to try and change that?

I've actually made effort to find some good male/boy role models for DS, just well, I think it's nice to have both, but he just doesn't cling to them the way he does female ones. I think partly because I haven't had as much luck finding boy role models with the qualities DS holds dear, but mostly I think because DS is just DS and its not where he's at right now. We're reading Elmer and the Dragon right now and while he's loves the story, it just simply doesn't occur to him to align himself with the main character; a sweet, caring, very resourceful boy. OTOH, I'm fairly certain that if the main character were a girl, he might very well be pretending to be her right now.

I think sometimes I do search for deeper meaning in his appreciation of girl characters. I wonder what it says about his personality. He spends some time as different types of animals, dinosaurs, the occasional fire fighter, train engineer or construction worker, but its the "chicks" he loves best.







And you know what? He makes one cute little girl!









I'm not sure if there was a real point to this post, but its hugely strong theme in our lives right now, and its wonderful to have such a helpful and supportive thread... I just felt like sharing.

My .02 for the day... for what it's worth.









The best,
Em


----------



## cherylannl (Oct 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
What is it with our generation of parents? Why is it so hard to see this as simply a non-issue? WHo cares why a given boy might want to wear a dress? Sigh.

It is generations, and generations, and generations throughout history.

Don't forget, that it took hundreds (thousands?) of years to where we now let, and accept, girls wearing of pants/trousers if they want to.

The world did not end when females started wearing pants.

I doubt that it will end when boys wear skirts.

Once the idea of girls wearing pants was not considered wierd or "unusual", around the 1950's-60's, it only less than 10 years or so for females in pants to be a non-issue.

There were always a very few strange odd ball females in history who wore pants: Joan of Arc, Calamity Jane, etc. , but who were either ridiculed or arrested. It has to become a "fad", with more than just a few oddballs to make it acceptable, before it becomes "accepted" by the population at large.

Until and unless, dresses and skirts on boys becomes common/popular, then we still may be hundreds of years away from accepting it.

If it ever suddenly becomes a fad, then overnight we shall see lots of boys in skirts, as common as we now see females in public wearing pants.

It is impossible to say/predict if we are 3 years away from it being commonly accepted, or a hundred and fifty years away from it being accepted.


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

I was at a store buying new shirts for my ds, in the girl section of course (the boy clothes are so dark they hold NO interest for him); he picked out three pairs of stretchy pants, purple, bright pink, and red; fine. I was ready for it.

When we passed a white shirt with a little reindeer and a pink bow and trim, he cried out with delight. He had to have it! I cringed internally, thinking, hoo boy, what will people say to him about *this*? This shirt was overtly *trying* to be girlish. It wasn't just a color or a topic (like butterflies) that is stupidly designated to be for girls only, which we have agreed is stupid.

I let him hold it for a while, and said, "We can get it. But I want you to look at the way it's designed, it's really trying to be girlish. I think that if you wear it, people may say that it looks girlish and you shouldn't be wearing it."

He was delighted! "Yeah, it looks very girlish, don't you think?" That was what he liked most about it!

And he really could give a hoot that people think that's bad. His policy is just to ignore that talk. The next day, wearing his favorite new reindeer shirt to clay class, he said to the teacher, "Hey, don't you like my shirt?!" And she said, "Um, yeah, it's nice." And he said, "It's really girlish, huh!" In a proud and delighted way. (And to her credit, she didn't say anything discouraging, nor did any of the kids.)

I have to keep reminding myself that in addition to simply liking the color pink and things like butterflies and flowers, he also actively likes the idea of appearing girlish per se. In his world, girls rock! And why the heck not? I hope when he finally does get exposed once and for all to the idea that the *reason* he is supposed to eschew girlishness is that girls are supposedly inferior creatures, he will be fully prepared to brush it off. We'll see.

Anyway, being the mother of a boy is a fascinating ride.







I have so much to learn from him.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm glad your DS likes the "girlish" look, but it does make me sad that boys can't get clothes out of the boys section and still get holiday wear or so many bright colorful things like in the girls dept.

Where are the BRIGHT purples, yellows, oranges , reds (not to mentione the pinks) in the boys sections? Soooo much olive, navy, grey. Buying fleece pants for my son & daughter. DD had pink and purple to choose from. DS had navy, light grey, dark grey and olive.

And why do they assume that boys over size 4T don't want a "holiday" shirt. You can go to target and buy an entire Christmas wardrobe for a girl in 6X-7 (leggings, socks, shirts, sweater) but boys have... vests? No shirts with pictures, etc...


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraJadesMama*
In his world, girls rock! And why the heck not?

Amen to that!


----------



## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*

Where are the BRIGHT purples, yellows, oranges , reds (not to mentione the pinks) in the boys sections? Soooo much olive, navy, grey. Buying fleece pants for my son & daughter. DD had pink and purple to choose from. DS had navy, light grey, dark grey and olive.


Yes. Very sad for boys to be pressured to give up bright and lively colors. Seems very oppressive, against the grain of normal child preferences. Gotta be tough.









And no frivolous things like holidays. Sports, though, that's fine!


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Undoing damage...

I was visiting my folks last week for an afternoon, and thank goodness it was only that long. In 2 hours time my mom managed to make DS feel bad about himself a hundred different ways including asking my long haired beautiful boy: "Don't you want a little boy haircut" as if to say that if his hair is long he is somehow NOT a boy. She also made several comments about my great-nephew who has a "little boy haircut." Then, when DS mentioned to her that I'd cut an old shirt of mine short to make a dress for him (something he was very excited about), she sort of turned away and rolled her eyes and laughed as if to say, "Ok, whatever floats your boat." Very condescending and judgemental were her actions, no question what she was thinking there...

Now, I could care less what my mom thinks BUT, I do care about DS feeling free to be who he is without being judged by ignorance. Up until Friday when we visited, he'd been wearing a dress pretty much every day and now all of a sudden I notice that he's not. He has still been pretending to be Madeline and such, but not nearly as much and no outfits that are usually soooooooo important to him. I could throttle my mother, and while I did have some words for her about the haircut as in, "Mom, let DS be who he is. Your own son (my older brother) had his hair long for years and years and he was no less a boy than anyone else, and not to mention, he looked great!" It shut her up but the damage was done.

The thing is, if I had a DD and her hair was short, I'm quite sure my mother wouldn't give a second thought about it. In fact, she cut _my_ hair off against my wishes when I was six because it was more convenient for _her._ So, her making a comment that short hair = little boys really insensed me. In addition, if my girl loathed wearing dresses and preferred pants always, who would notice, much less care? It really and truly breaks my heart when I see my DS who is so amazingly adept at seeing (and being) both sides to be shot down for clearly striving to be a whole person. The double standard here is infuriating to say the least.









I guess I'm venting more than anything else here but I am concerned that DS is receiving messages from supposed "loving" family members that who he is is not "normal" and it worries me. I suppose I've been in a bit of a cocoon, homeschooling, lving in a liberal community which doesn't seem to have an issue with this type of thing... for those who have been there, I feel your pain!

Thanks. Comments, experiences, suggestions well accepted.









The best,
Em


----------



## paulapinny (Feb 17, 2006)

I have DD aged 13 and DS aged 11,and when they were little both would wear aprons to help cook and bake,After a time my DS beagan to wear a cotton skirt of his sister instead of his apron.I disn't mind as they looked asout the same.Gradually his sister started passing him hand-me-downs and he was quite often in a dress.he still wears boys' clothes but if my DD has friends over he just puts on a dress and joins in,and they accept him .H e has even been at a slumber party !Recently for his birthday he was given make-up set and made up by his girlfriends.He is too young ,as are girls at that age to wear make-up and his sister and friends are developing.What do I do ,stop him ?Any ideas ?
If knew how to access photo albums ,would post pics,as he is cute and pretty too.
Paula


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

AnthroMama
I will not be an agent of gender oppression in my child's life even if I know others will do it. Protecting them from it seems misguided. I would not protect them from other things by becoming the oppressor.
PS. On the hair thing some of you might remember my quest for 'boy barettes'. I am into a more genderqueer look for my ds - I like to get him to pair the girly hings he is into with less traditionally girly things and heighten he challenge to everyone else's gender issues. So said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


That is great. I wish I had though of that when my oldest was little. He would have looked great in barrettes. He had long, very curly hair (he's biracial-AA/white)


----------



## sahm1 (Aug 14, 2004)

I have mixed feelings about this topic...

It is grea to let your son be who he is....but he is going to be teased from it. Are you going to let him wear dresses to school?


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paulapinny*
I have DD aged 13 and DS aged 11,and when they were little both would wear aprons to help cook and bake,After a time my DS beagan to wear a cotton skirt of his sister instead of his apron.I disn't mind as they looked asout the same.Gradually his sister started passing him hand-me-downs and he was quite often in a dress.he still wears boys' clothes but if my DD has friends over he just puts on a dress and joins in,and they accept him .H e has even been at a slumber party !Recently for his birthday he was given make-up set and made up by his girlfriends.He is too young ,as are girls at that age to wear make-up and his sister and friends are developing.What do I do ,stop him ?Any ideas ?
If knew how to access photo albums ,would post pics,as he is cute and pretty too.
Paula

It sounds liek you are doing wonderfully! I really think your children are lucky to have you as their mama because you have been so respectful and caring in letting them be who they are. I would not stop him, as I have said elsewhere in this thread, I have made a decision that I will not become like others in order to shelter my child. Kids get picked on for so many things and we can not protect them from it so enforcing arbitrary gender roles in an effort to 'protect' our kids is wrong in mu opinion. If they can not trust us, their parents, to offer unconditional love and respect, who can they trust? You are an amazing mom and I really applaud you for letting you ds be who he is. In terms of ideas, I say just keep doing what you are doing and feel free to ask us if you have specific issues that come up that you need help with!


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm1*
I have mixed feelings about this topic...

It is grea to let your son be who he is....but he is going to be teased from it. Are you going to let him wear dresses to school?

I think lots of us have addressed this here and perhaps you would be well served by reading through the thread and engaging with the issues we have been discussing - like how to protect our children from gender based oppression (from others, from family, and even from ourselves as we struggle). I don't mean to dismiss your ideas but I am not sure what you are hoping to get with this one liner. My child, for example, does not go to school but does wear whatever clothing desired everywhere we go. If your child had to wear glasses would you force them not to (eyesight, who needs it?) just so they wopuld not get picked on? Kids get teased for SO many issues - weight, height, glasses, smart, stupid, likes and dislikes, siblings, birth markers, different abilities, and the list is endless. We CAN NOT make that never happen - what we can do is love our children and create mature, strong kids who feel able to face the challenges that life presents us all. My child, for example, now has lots of words for dealing with people who would force gender roles unto him. Our super, for exmaple, told him that boys do not wear nail polish and told him to have his father remove it. My child began to laugh and said back to him "Frank, you are funny. Boys DO wear nail polish, just look". He held out his hands with pride and said, "See, I am a boy and I have red nail polish". He smiled and walked away.


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
Undoing damage...

I was visiting my folks last week for an afternoon, and thank goodness it was only that long. In 2 hours time my mom managed to make DS feel bad about himself a hundred different ways including asking my long haired beautiful boy: "Don't you want a little boy haircut" as if to say that if his hair is long he is somehow NOT a boy. She also made several comments about my great-nephew who has a "little boy haircut." Then, when DS mentioned to her that I'd cut an old shirt of mine short to make a dress for him (something he was very excited about), she sort of turned away and rolled her eyes and laughed as if to say, "Ok, whatever floats your boat." Very condescending and judgemental were her actions, no question what she was thinking there...

Thanks. Comments, experiences, suggestions well accepted.









The best,
Em

Hey Em, sorry this happened. It is the worst when it comes from the people who should love our children for who they are. In terms of how to deal with it, I find just beiong really honest with my child and talking through it works. I say things like, "I thought that was a bummer when xxx said xxx to you because those are some really silly ideas about xxx". We chat some and we also think about things that could be said in that context. I find that if I model good "come-baks" for my child, then he is empowered to 'defend' himself in these contexts (see above post with the super).

Good luck.

M


----------



## sahm1 (Aug 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnthroMama*
I think lots of us have addressed this here and perhaps you would be well served by reading through the thread and engaging with the issues we have been discussing - like how to protect our children from gender based oppression (from others, from family, and even from ourselves as we struggle). I don't mean to dismiss your ideas but I am not sure what you are hoping to get with this one liner. My child, for example, does not go to school but does wear whatever clothing desired everywhere we go. If your child had to wear glasses would you force them not to (eyesight, who needs it?) just so they wopuld not get picked on? Kids get teased for SO many issues - weight, height, glasses, smart, stupid, likes and dislikes, siblings, birth markers, different abilities, and the list is endless. We CAN NOT make that never happen - what we can do is love our children and create mature, strong kids who feel able to face the challenges that life presents us all. My child, for example, now has lots of words for dealing with people who would force gender roles unto him. Our super, for exmaple, told him that boys do not wear nail polish and told him to have his father remove it. My child began to laugh and said back to him "Frank, you are funny. Boys DO wear nail polish, just look". He held out his hands with pride and said, "See, I am a boy and I have red nail polish". He smiled and walked away.

Yes I know kids get teased about many things, but this you can prevent! And sorry if I offended you but that is my opinion and I'm allowed to expressed it on this thread....


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

You can also prevent many other things but that doesa not make them right. Perhaps I should only partner with white men so my children will not have to face racism? Perhaps we should abort children with disabilities so they will not get teased? The only way to 'prevent' your children from getting teased is to force them to be something esle and become a part of the problematic system that says it is alright to tease people for non-conforming gender identities. Isn't there a time when it makes sense to just love our children for who they are and help them work to change the world around us?

I am not offended - your opinion is that expressed by most mainstream parents (and people more broadly) and is found all over the place. While I think it is wrong and narrow, it is not suprising and getting offended aboiut it would get me no where. I'm not sure why you'd like me to know that you are 'allowed' to have it - of course, isn't that obvious?

If you are interested in engaging about these issues, I would be happy to talk with you further. As it is, you seem to be more interested in contrary one-liners, which, as you say, is something you are 'allowed' but I don't find it productive. At the very least, I hope you'll teach your children not to tease others because they fail to conform to arbirary cultural rules about gender.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm1*
Yes I know kids get teased about many things, but this you can prevent!

Yes, but at what cost?

ETA - Oops, crosspost with Anthro.


----------



## sahm1 (Aug 14, 2004)

I'm not trying to start a debate. With my first post I jus seriously wanted to know if you send (or plan on sending) your son to school in a dress.

Obviously I do not think you anyone should abort their baby if it has a disablilty! I don't think a boy in a dress has anything to do with a disabled child.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

It's about how much of your child's spirit to you lay at the altar of social conformity.

And about how squishing our kids into boxes out of fear perpetuates those very boxes, so other generations of kids will continue to suffer.


----------



## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm1*
I'm not trying to start a debate. With my first post I jus seriously wanted to know if you send (or plan on sending) your son to school in a dress.

Obviously I do not think you anyone should abort their baby if it has a disablilty! I don't think a boy in a dress has anything to do with a disabled child.

I don't plan to send my kids to school in any clothes.... they choose what they want to wear and if they choose to send themselves out in dresses, pants, kilts, what-have-you, I am cool with it. I draw the line at haltertops, miniskirts, tube tops, or anything really revealing and sexualized.

I believe the comparison of a son in a dress to a child with disabilities was just to make a point. What is being said is that there are many things that are "preventable" that children get teased for. It doesn't mean that we should beat our children into conforming in order to protect them from nasty little bullies who learn hate from their parents and spread it on. I am a bright pink haired, overweight mama. Will my kids get teased for this? I am sure of it. Does that mean I should change myself? nope. My kids have a good chance, based on genetics, of needing braces, glasses, having acne, large breasts, and weight problems. Does this mean I should sign them up for lasik surgery, breast reductions, starve them to be thin, load them up on acne drugs, and oral surgery to prevent braces? What kind of mom would I be if I was only concerned by other people and not about what is truely best for my children? Shouldn't my goal instead be to teach my children to love themselves, care for themselves, and poopoo anyone who treats them poorly because of their ignorance? That is what I think my goal should be.


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Really well said hotwings and thismama.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I haven't read over this entire thread, but I've got a little boy who loves pink and I posted a bit about it over in Parenting Issues not too long ago: Boys in Pink.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnthroMama*
Hey Em, sorry this happened. It is the worst when it comes from the people who should love our children for who they are. In terms of how to deal with it, I find just beiong really honest with my child and talking through it works. I say things like, "I thought that was a bummer when xxx said xxx to you because those are some really silly ideas about xxx". We chat some and we also think about things that could be said in that context. I find that if I model good "come-baks" for my child, then he is empowered to 'defend' himself in these contexts (see above post with the super).

Thank you so much for this AnthroMama. Had to actually go back and reread my last post, forgotten just how much this incident had bothered me.

Your advice is well taken, thank you. We have focused so much on accepting who DS is that I feel we probably haven't taken time to discuss things with him as often as we should be. He's very sensitive, and sometimes misinterprets what I'm trying to say (support, understanding of not so tolerant others, etc.) no matter how carefully I place my words. Your suggestions are excellent and simple. Perfect, I'll take them to heart.









At present, DS continues to embrace his feminine and masculine sides rather equally although if it leans more to one side, it's usually the feminine. Yep, there's my kid, sitting in the sandbox, playing with his trucks wearing a tiara.







And for all those who would not understand, we're lucky to live in a community that is incredibly tolerant... we have new neighbors whom we don't know well as of yet and they know DS is a boy because of how we introduced him initially, but I'm sure DS has had them guessing at times. The other day we were headed out in the car and DS was decked out in full fairy attire (dress, wand, etc.) and our neighbor (a young man, 30ish) yelled, "what's your son's name again?" After we told him he yelled (with thumbs up sign), "He's totally cool."







Yep. He is indeed...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotwings640*
What kind of mom would I be if I was only concerned by other people and not about what is truely best for my children? Shouldn't my goal instead be to teach my children to love themselves, care for themselves, and poopoo anyone who treats them poorly because of their ignorance? That is what I think my goal should be.

Beautiful.


----------



## paulapinny (Feb 17, 2006)

I should have noticed that there was a lack of boy's underwear in the wash,but just didn't.I realised when he came from school and changed into his skirt that when he sat on the floor I could see he was wearing panties.Not just any panties but white silky ones of his older sister.I asked him where he got them and he told me his sister had given him a few pairs -which she later confirmed - but he liked theses ones best I told him if he was wearing a skirt he needed to be more careful and not show off his underwear and that he really should wear a slip with that skirt.
I think he is becoming more feminine and seems to be accepted that way by his sister and her friends but should I ban him from dresses for his own good ?
Any thoughts ?
Paula


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

My MIL told me yesterday "I didn't like that pink diaper on him, it looked like you were trying to turn him into a ******"







: I said "that's not very christian like of you, besides pink is just a color and even if he were gay it wouldn't matter to me anyway" She didn't say anything after that


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Yikes Barbara. I'm sorry your MIL said that! Those kind of comments make my skin crawl. You handled it superbly!
















I've been meaning to check in on this thread...

How's everyone? How are our little guys? Mine I think is starting to become more inhibited about his girl wear, except when around us or his close buddy. Even without attending school and being in a more or less tolerant environment such is our town, he still senses the social "norms." *sigh* I do however believe also that he's just not in an overly feminine place right now. Of course, it's all relative because I say this at a time when his hair is about half way down his back and he will wear nothing but girls leggings, and his favorite jammies are decorated sky blue with clouds, moons and stars on them.







It does wax and wane... a few months ago, he wore nothing but dresses and fairy wings for weeks on end so right now, he seems less feminine to me, but to others... let's just say he's been called a girl at least 4 times this week and we've only really been out about 4 times. He's really great about speaking up for himself these days. The other day he just said to one lady, sweet as you please, "Actually, I'm a boy. I've got long hair." And you know, I'm not entirely sure she believed him.









At any rate, he's happy, seemingly content with his multi sided self. And ok, I think he's just about as cute as they come but of course, I'm biased.

How are things with everyone else???

The best,
Em


----------



## Tinastone (Mar 1, 2006)

I am so happy to find other moms with sons who are feminine. My son Chrissie adores dressing up in girls clothes and has done so since he/she was 2 or 3. It started when s/he started asking me if I could paint his fingier nails to look like mine because he wanted to look pretty too. So I decided to bring home some cute outfits from the girls dept to see if he would wear them. Just short sets and tops. And he loved them. Pretty soon we were going to the store and when we went through the girls department at Targets I asked if there was anything he would like and he was begging me to buy him skirts and tops and dresses not to mention undies. Since I am divorced and we are the only ones at home I didn't think it was harmful and made him very happy. Now at age 8 Chriss is my dd whenever she is at home and most of the time when we go out and I couldn't be happier.
I have done a lot of reading about transgendered children and recently saw a documentary and the one thing that all the girls, now grown up, had in common as children was the deep hurt and regret that they had hide who they were and couldn't enjoy being little girls like they really felt they were. My Chrissie is going to enjoy who she is and improve her self-esteem.
Tina


----------



## Morag (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinastone*
&#8230;Pretty soon we were going to the store and when we went through the girls department at Targets I asked if there was anything he would like and he was begging me to buy him skirts and tops and dresses not to mention undies. Since I am divorced and we are the only ones at home I didn't think it was harmful and made him very happy. Now at age 8 Chriss is my dd whenever she is at home and most of the time when we go out and I couldn't be happier.
&#8230;*&#8230;
My Chrissie is going to enjoy who she is and improve her self-esteem.
Tina

Tina,
I am rather late on the scene with this thread, having not been on MDC for a while and have only just discovered it. However some of the moms here may well remember my posts in the Gender variant/transgendered children thread here on MDC.
I, too, have a transgendered dc who has been expressing as a girl at home since she was less than 3. She has had long hair for most of her short life and has always been into "girl things" and was constantly annoying her elder sis by "borrowing" her clothes. I was constantly told by the "experts" that she would grow out of it. I must have been told, "It's just a phase," a hundred times.







She is now 10 and on July 4th attended school as a girl for the first time. Before that, even when wearing boys' school uniform, she looked like a girl with a long ponytail in a pink scrunchy. She behaved in a very girlis manner, playing with the girls and used to get teased constantly; but funnily enough since she has transitioned at school and now wears teh girls' uniform (a checked dress in summer) she has been accepted by the other girls in her year (grade in US) as one of them and most of the boys accept her for what she is; although there are a couple of boys who steer clear of her because, they say, they don't want to catch whatever it is that made her become a girl!!!








The most heartening thing is that her schoolwork has improved immeasurably and got a really good end of term report for about the first time in her life. She is on vacation just now and enjoying the company of her sibs (1 elder sis and 2 younger bros) and her best friend (another girl) who has been faithful to her since they first met 5 years ago.
She is a delightful child, loving, happy, bubbly, - a typical little girl.
In later years I shall be able to look back on her girlhood with pleasure and happiness.


----------



## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

I really love so many of the responses tothis thread and found some great reassurance heer as my 5 year old son loves pink and many girly things and I find myslef at moments so utterly proud of his bravery to express himself outside of teh box but then other moments I worry I am setting him up for a life of teasing. Ifeel much more confident in allowing him to be himself no matter what now. Thank you for that.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
I do however believe also that he's just not in an overly feminine place right now.

I just had to laugh when I reread this post and happened to notice the date. DS was exactly _one day_ away from a 3+ month long OBSESSION with Laura Ingalls.









The best to all! Would love some updates on your boy/girls!

Em


----------



## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i posted on this a loooooooooooooong time ago.. so..an update on us..

elwynn has gone back and forth between loving having long hair and wanting it shorter(we cut it to chin length just the other day..with bangs. SO sweet).. and loving pink and girly stuff and wanting to be more of a "boy" he finally started to correct people "im a BOY" when people say things like "what a beautiful little girl you have" he still likes wearing dresses and girlish stuff sometimes but the older he gets the more he sees how others react to it (like my mom for instance who has a big problem with it) and so he is way less inclined.. i wonder if it was more my dressing him like a girl and encouraging play with dolls and gender nutral toys rather than boy stuff (which by the way he LOVES..cars. oh. my ...)that has made him more of a girly boy.. but none the less he is small and fine featured and beautiful.. he is such a sensitive little person and i think others reactions to him looking and acting girly really effect him







hopefully im doing a good job keeping him feeling like an individual and empowered to be whoever he is in this world.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Well, my son has very, very short hair, but his favorite color is still pink and he absolutely adores anything with sparkles on it.







He seems to me to be a very masculine child who likes to wear pink sparkles.


----------

